Post-Growth Australia Podcast: Recent Episodes
Michael Bayliss
The podcast where better is definitely better than bigger. Do you think growing infinitely on a finite planet is an oxymoron? If the answer is yes, then this podcast is for you. In each episode of the Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP), host Michael Bayliss talks to experts to unpack the notion of post-growth societies and what this means for us, for future generations and for the planet. Each episode will also play an environmental themed song from local artists. PGAP is made possible by the support of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA).
Welcome to the season five premiere of Post-Growth Australia Podcast. What better way to launch our new season than with Rob Dietz, co-host of Crazy Town Podcast, (https://www.resilience.org/crazy-town-podcast/) perhaps the standard bearer of degrowth themed podcasts.
(Rob Dietz). Rob is the Programs Director of Post Carbon Institute (https://www.postcarbon.org/) (PCI). A brilliant public speaker and story teller, Rob talks us through the journey of Crazy Town Podcast, which he co-hosts with colleagues Asher Miller (https://www.postcarbon.org/our-people/asher-miller/)and Jason Bradford (https://www.postcarbon.org/our-people/jason-bradford/). He also discusses the other initiatives and campaigns run by PCI, in addition to his unique vision of a Post-Growth future.
(Crazy Town's Logo). We asked Rob to share two of his favourite Crazy Town Podcast Episodes that are linked below. We do warn you, that once you start listening to Crazy Town, you might not be able to stop! Episode 34. Fear of Death and Climate Denial, or… the Story of Wolverine and the Screaming Mole of Doom (https://www.resilience.org/stories/2021-03-25/fear-of-death-and-climate-denial-or-the-story-of-wolverine-and-the-screaming-mole-of-doom-episode-34-of-crazy-town/) Episode 60. Chillin' and Killin': How Air Conditioning Has Altered Human Behavior and the Environment (https://www.resilience.org/stories/2022-06-16/chillin-and-killin-how-air-conditioning-has-altered-human-behavior-and-the-environment-episode-60-of-crazy-town/) Rob would also like us to share PCI’s report: “Welcome to the Great Unraveling: Navigating the Polycrisis of Environmental and Social Breakdown (https://www.postcarbon.org/publications/welcome-to-the-great-unraveling/).” It is quality reading and we are pleased that it is making ripples. The song of choice for this episode is ‘Safe Room (https://shockoctopus.bandcamp.com/track/safe-room)’ from host Michael Bayliss’ band ‘Shock Octopus (https://shockoctopus.bandcamp.com/album/a-decade-into-darkness).’ First released in 2011, its apocalyptic tale – of a world that has become so impacted that even the billionaires who created the mess in the first place have no safe place to hide – is becoming all the more prophetic a decade later. Michael and co-host Mark have had our music recently played on the Freedom of Species radio show, here (https://www.3cr.org.au/freedomofspecies/episode/how-can-we-be-effective-advocates-bees) and here (https://www.3cr.org.au/freedomofspecies/episode/orca-revolution-why-are-orcas-attacking-boats-iberian-peninsula) respectively.
(The iconic cover of the 'Safe Room' single). We are also excited by the fact that Rob presented at an online Degrowth conference run by New Economy Network Australia (NENA). PGAP has interviewed NENA’s convenor Michelle Maloney twice. The video of Rob’s talk can be watched here. (https://www.neweconomy.org.au/event/crazy-town-mid-week-sanity-preserving-degrowth-hilarity/#more-9711) Your co-hosts Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen are pleased to be back for season five of Post-Growth Australia Podcast. We hope you like the cosmetic changes of this episode (graphics courtesy of Squeaky Pea Designs with photos from Photographica). We are looking forward to another season of quality guests and topics. We have not been idle during our break. You may, for example wish to have a gander at two of our recent published articles, including: “Economic reform vital to solving housing crisi (https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/economic-reform-vital-to-solving-housing-crisis,17646)s” - Mark Allen for Independent Australia “POPULATION GROWTH AND WEALTH INEQUALITY ARE MORE ENTWINED THAN WE THOUGHT: HERE’S WHY (https://www.populationmedia.org/the-latest/population-growth-and-wealth-inequality-are-more-entwined-than-we-thought-heres-why)” – Michael Bayliss for Population Media Center blog. We hit our record monthly listens twice in season four and with your word of mouth we can extend our outreach even further for season five. Share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. Rate and review us on Apple podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099) or your favourite platform. Don’t hesitate to contact us anytime (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact) with your feedback, thoughts or suggestions. Post-Growth Australia Podcast is made possible from the support of Sustainable Population Australia (https://population.org.au/). Any opinions, views and legacies past and present from our guests are theirs only and may not always reflect that of PGAP or SPA. Episode Timestamp: 0:00:00 to 0:09:31 - Interview sound bye and introduction with Mark Allen 0:09:31 to 0:56:31 - Interview with Rob Dietz, hosted by Michael Bayliss 0:56:32 to 0:59:41 - Music, ‘Safe Room’ by ‘Shock Octopus’. 0:59:42 to 1:05:02 – Outro with Mark Allen Special Guest: Rob Dietz.
In 1998 Population Media Center (https://www.populationmedia.org/) (PMC) was formed to ‘make the stories that remake our world’. 25 years later, radio and TV shows, supported by PMC, have been heard throughout the world, including Ethiopia, Senegal and Papua New Guinea. Produced in collaboration with local communities and local scriptwriters, these shows share a common thread in that the audience are invited to consider positive family planning decisions through the role modelling of engaging and identifiable characters. PGAP was very fortunate to be joined by special guest Bill Ryerson (https://www.populationmedia.org/people/william-ryerson-mphil), President and Founder of PMC. He talks us through the ‘stories behind the stories’ of PMC's many award winning and popular projects.
PGAP would like to give a shout out to Paul Winter (https://paulwinter.bandcamp.com/?src=email_link2), who is not only on the program advisory board at PMC, but is also a Grammy winning saxophonist, whose music is inspired by the cultures and creatures of planet Earth. He kindly shared the track ‘Talkabout’ for this episode of PGAP, which we played an extract from after Bill’s interview.
We would also like to give a shout-out to Cody Peluso (https://www.populationmedia.org/people/cody-peluso), Digital Advocacy & Mobilization Manager at PMC, without whom this episode would not have been possible. PGAP co-host Michael Bayliss interviewed Cody for a recent edition of the Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) newsletter (https://population.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Feb-SPA-150.pdf). SPA kindly supports PGAP and we encourage you to consider giving SPA a donation (https://population.org.au/donate/) for their end of financial year donation appeal.
PMC kindly provided an excerpt from the Hulu series ‘East Los High’, courtesy of Hulu, that we played at the start of this episode. A trailer for the series can be viewed on YouTube here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQnXknnCdoc). We hope you will join PMC in celebrating their 25th anniversary. There are many events lined up, including their Zoom birthday party, held on Zoom on the 15th of June, which you can RSVP here (https://populationmedia-org.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZckcuqqqDksH9dPOk5QqBmQ4yFufDT1JSrT?utm_medium=email&_hsmi=261340862&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-8c1MKvoihjFYez5RIgNY_e-JAtwz6TP64-Ys4QfmPdlSm9KYSyTPnirf5azcmoTzXyM8yxJdhMwYN2gRhEPjTuAbbfEdaZpU0ceUn6A-Hvm1U9E6U&utm_content=261210068&utm_source=hs_email#/registration). Unfortunately for Australian listeners, this is well after midnight for us so perhaps one for the night owls. Otherwise you can keep track of PMC's activities on their website here (https://www.populationmedia.org/). Otherwise, please check out PMC’s award winning podcast, Crossing the Line (https://ctlpod.com/). Excellent stuff. While PMC celebrate their 25th anniversary, PGAP will be taking a very short break. This is the last episode of season 4 of Post-Growth Australia Podcast. We made some changes to the format of this podcast, including welcoming co-host Mark Allen. The experiment has worked in our favour, with record number of listens in April and May. While our PGAP community continues to build, we strongly encourage our listeners to reach out and contact us with your feedback, suggestions and thoughts while we are on break. What were the episodes you loved, or not so much? What guests or topics would you like to see in season 5? We would love to hear from you, so don’t be shy in hitting the contact button (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact). All opinions of PGAP guests, including any past, present and future legacies, are exclusively their own and may not always reflect the views and objectives of Post-Growth Australia Podcast or Sustainable Population Australia. CLICK HERE (https://population.org.au/) to find out more about Sustainable Population Australia. You can find out more about the work of co-hosts Michael Bayliss HERE (https://michaelbayliss.org/) or Mark Allen HERE (https://holisticactivism.net/). We look forward to gracing the airwaves in a month or two. Until then folks, until then! Special Guest: Bill Ryerson.
For season 4 of Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP), we will be highlighting some extraordinary work being done by extraordinary Western Australians, who are bucking the dominant narrative of exploitation on scale on an ecologically unique yet fragile part of the world. In this episode, we speak to Murray Gomm from Oranje Tractor (https://www.oranjetractor.com/), award winning organic, regenerative and carbon negative winery/small farm holding near Albany.Oranje Tractor certainly punches above its weight. It was the winner of the Gourmet Traveller Wine, Australia's Best Cellar Door Awards 2019. Oranje Tractor Farm was the winner of ACCI's Great Southern Business Awards for Environment and Sustainability in 2019 and was a Case Study for Circular Economy WA in 2022. It has been endorsed by Charles Massy (previous PGAP guest) and visited by then Prince Charles – now king (and not YET a PGAP guest).But how do you produce good quality wine, along with an impressive variety of fruits, nuts and vegetables, in a manner that improves soil integrity and sequesters more carbon than what is emitted? Murray Gomm shares what happens ‘behind the scenes’ of how they do it and why Oranje Tractor is capturing the interest and imagination of so many people. Murray also provides some insight into the wider regenerative movement and the agricultural zeitgeist that is slowly beginning to influence new ways of approaching farming in the Great Southern of Western Australia.For the introduction and outro of this episode, Michael is joined by co-host Mark Allen as they pick each other’s brain on topics such as: regenerative agriculture and permaculture; progress on the Asbestos campaign (as discussed in the last episode); and the result of SPA’s 8 billion competition and the commentary from the mainstream press for 8 billion day, which was reached on the 15th of November.Timestamp for the episodeIntro (Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen): 0:00:00 – 0:06:37Oranje Tractor interview with Murray Gomm: 0:06:38 - 0:58:24Outro (Michael Bayliss and Mark Allen): 0:58:25 - EndLiked this episode and the themes of regenerative agriculture? You will love our interviews with Charles Massy (https://pgap.fireside.fm/fenner), Shane Simonsen, (https://pgap.fireside.fm/zeroinput) Artist as Family (https://pgap.fireside.fm/artistasfamily) and David Holmgren (https://pgap.fireside.fm/holmgren).Like PGAP? Rate and review us on Apple Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099) and share the podcast widely with your family friends and networks.Have a question for us? Got any suggestions for future discussion topics or interview guests? Contact PGAP anytime on our contact page here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact).Further links you may be interested in:Independent Australia published an article co-written by Mark and Michael: “Working towards an asbestos-free future (https://independentaustralia.net/life/life-display/working-towards-an-asbestos-free-future,17004).” A more extensive version can also be read on the PGAP blog (https://pgap.fireside.fm/articles/asbestosfuture). Our various asbestos misadventures were discussed in the season 4 premiere of PGAP (https://pgap.fireside.fm/asbestosville).There is an excellent article, published by Carbon8, showcasing FarmHand wines, another excellent regenerative winery. Written by Elena Burger Guimaraes. Currently available to read on Facebook. (https://m.facebook.com/carbon8fund/photos/a.2260924247278365/4758087974228634/?type=3)ABC has interviewed Oranje Tractor on several occasions. Examples include here (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-14/carbon-positive-vineyard-oranje-tractor-farm-sequesters-co2/100756992) and here (https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2022-08-17/oranje-tractor-wines-trial-growing-bananas-sugarcane/101328830).SPA (https://population.org.au/) (who supports PGAP) announced the winners of the 8 billion writers' competition here. (https://population.org.au/winners-8billion-writers-competition/)You can find out more about Mark Allen's other work with Town Planning Rebellion here (https://holisticactivism.net/town-planning-rebellion-tpr/).You can find out more about Michael Bayliss at his website here (https://michaelbayliss.org/). Special Guest: Murray Gomm.
We can’t believe that PGAP is into its fourth season already! So, to shake things up, Michael is joined by Mark Allen from Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism as the co-host for this season. You may remember Mark from his two previous guest appearances on PGAP here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/christiewalk) and here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/holmgren).
This first episode of the season is the culmination of a personal journey for them both. For Michael it is an opportunity to share his lived experiences in the West Australia rental market (in what has been labelled as the asbestos capital of the world) - that is too broken to care about whether the basic health and safety needs of renters are being met. Mark who shared in some of those experiences, goes on to look at how it all fits into a wider discussion on the systemic changes that are so urgently required in our town planning and housing sectors. These experiences have also been written down in the form of a blog: “A Year in Asbestosville: A Farcical Tale of Systemic Failure.” This can be read on the PGAP blog (https://pgap.fireside.fm/articles/asbestos) or at Michael’s author profile on Medium (https://medium.com/@bayliss.michael/a-year-in-asbestosville-a-farcical-tale-of-systemic-failure-be16823109f3). You are spoiled for choice! In addition to our personal journeys, we also discuss some Degrowth related current affairs. For example… Did you know that November 15th is the date that our global population will reach 8 billion people. Yay! But what does 8 billion mean for the planet, the environment and for you? Sustainable Population Australia (SPA (https://population.org.au/)), who support this podcast, are inviting you to answer this very question in 100 words (or less!) for your chance to win a prize. A link can be found to the competition here (https://population.org.au/8-billion-competition/). The competition is open to all Australian residents who are not currently members of SPA and it is open until November 11th.
Also, how could we not talk about Liz Truss on a program about Degrowth? Before her six weeks as PM was over, Truss bemoaned the supposed anti-growth coalition. So, a growing number of people thought that this was a great idea and started one up. Mark is currently in conversation with the coalition about how best to frame the population issue in a way that prevents it from becoming overly divisive. Want to find out more? You can visit their website here. (https://theagcoalition.org/?fbclid=IwAR2hQc_zgNg5sFvOwYy9lIg1Ll9Bb1L_f7Cmw5qMi44x4poSXoFTGeeGq3g)
(image found through internet image search). Finally, we would like to give a nod to Dr. Alex Baumann, who has just released a YouTube video, “The Land Issue | A Social Science Sustainability Breakthroug (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roi4WiJakoY&t=1s)h". Our season 3 interview with Alex, ‘A Public Housing Revolution for Degrowth (https://pgap.fireside.fm/degrowthousing)’ has become PGAP’s highest performing ever episode. Hopefully this will help bring the importance of public housing and its role in our transition to degrowth, further into public consciousness. Perhaps we are making a difference because this year, PGAP nudged into the top 6% of global podcasts! With your help, we can get PGAP into the top 5% of listens, which we would like to think is where it belongs. You can do your bit by sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. You can also rate and review us on Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099) so that others may be inspired to give us a go. Let’s help to build a movement of movements 😊. You can find out more about Mark, Holistic Activism and Town Planning Rebellion here (https://holisticactivism.net/) You can find out more about Michael at his website here (https://michaelbayliss.org/)
From the very beginning, PGAP has delighted in playing music from Formidable Vegetable (https://formidablevegetable.com.au/) on our permaculture themed episodes. So, for the final episode of Season 3, host Michael Bayliss is especially thrilled to meet with Formidable Vegetable mastermind Charlie Mgee at his new eco village home at Living Waters, Denmark WA. An engaging storyteller as well as musician and performer, Charlie shares the incredible history of forming the permaculture themed band and their mission statement from the get go. We also explore the role that music place in activism and societal change and we cap it off with Charlie’s vision for a Post-Growth future.
Want to explore more of the Formidable Vegetable discography? The video for ‘No Such Thing as Waste’, the featured song for this episode, can be seen here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V7AbD-RuxM). We also play brand new track 'Short Attention Span' from brand new album 'In Real Life' at the end of the interview. Bandcamp is the best place to go to hear all the back catalogue. Link here. (https://formidablevegetable.bandcamp.com/)
PGAP will be taking a – hopefully – short break before rejuvenating with Season 4 later this year. Just because we’re on pause doesn’t mean you have to be! Share this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family, colleagues and networks. Rate and review us on Apple Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099). Contact us here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact) to give us your feedback and especially what topics and guests you’d like to see for season 4. In the meantime, if you enjoy the permaculture theme you may also like PGAP’s interview with David Holmgren (https://pgap.fireside.fm/holmgren) (who Charlie lived with back in 2020) or Meg and Patrick from Artist as Family (https://pgap.fireside.fm/artistasfamily). Or you may be interested in the Tasmanian Perspectives (https://pgap.fireside.fm/tasperspect3) series of interviews in season 2, including the quiet permaculture revolutio (https://pgap.fireside.fm/tasperspect1)n of Tassie’s northern shores, or Charles Massy (https://pgap.fireside.fm/fenner), regenerative farmer, from Season 3. Most of these episodes have Formidable Vegetable providing the music. If you want to find out more about host Michael Bayliss, please head to my website here (https://michaelbayliss.org/). Otherwise, episode timestamp below and see you all in a few months! Until then, until then…. Timestamp! 0:00:00 - 0:08:13 Introduction with Michael Bayliss 0:08:13 - 0:10:59 'No Such Thing As Waste' - Formidable Vegetable, reproduced with permission. All rights reserved. 0:11:00 - 1:03:11 Interview with Charlie Mgee 1:03:11 - 1:04:05 'Short Attention Span' - Formidable Vegetable, reproduced with permission. All rights reserved. 1:04:06 - 1:06:31 Outro with Michael Bayliss Special Guest: Charlie Mgee.
In this episode of Post-Growth Australia, we welcome back Dr Michelle Maloney, National Convenor of Australia Earth Law Alliance (AELA), to discuss the exciting new Greenprints initiative.
Quoting from the AELA Website (https://www.earthlaws.org.au/our-programs/greenprints/), Greenprints “provides a practical, step-by-step approach to help people understand both the big picture and the small details, of how to transform our societies and thrive within our ecological limit”. Greenprints “offers a process to help us find and use the very best sustainability & regenerative approaches, so we can redesign societies to thrive within our local, regional & global ecological limits.” This episode was recorded online during severe gale force winds in Albany and severe rainfall in Brisbane, which unfortunately impacted on the resulting sound quality. Unfortunately folks, climate change even impacts our podcast listening experience! More information can be found on the Greenprints website here (https://www.greenprints.org.au/). An introductory video from Michelle on Greenprints can be watched on YouTube here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glM8lNINF8o).
(A model of the greenprints steps reproduced here with courtesy from the Greenprints website) Greenprints is a practical tool for community groups, workplaces and local government. If you or your community would benefit from Greenprints, please contact AELA, details on their website here. (https://www.earthlaws.org.au/) The online seminar from Prof. Will Steffen, where I first heard about the Greenprints initiative, can be viewed on YouTube here: “Planetary Boundaries: 2022 Update with Professor Will Steffen - Greenprints Exchange Workshop Series (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1vSWPsjknI&t=1s).” Steffen also presented at the March 2022 Fenner conference which I helped to organise with Sustainable Population Australia (https://population.org.au/). A video of the presentation can also be viewed on YouTube: “Can we feed all the people and not destroy the Earth (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90h5DOFNtUE&t=1s)?” Dr Michelle Maloney was previously interviewed by PGAP all the way back in Season 1. One of our more popular episodes, “Reimagining an Earth Centered Economy with Michelle Maloney” can be heard here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/4). You may also be interested in the second season PGAP episode: “Saving the Martuwarra-Fitzroy river with Professor Anne Poelina (https://pgap.fireside.fm/martuwarra).” Anne Poelina is a Nyikina Warrwa Traditional Owner who chairs the Martuwarra Fitzroy River Council and is working alongside AELA and the Greenprints initiative. Did you enjoy this episode? You can support PGAP by sharing this and other episodes of PGAP with your friends, family and networks. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099). We are grateful for any constructive feedback or ideas for future guests and episodes, contact us here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact). More information regarding PGAP host Michael Bayliss can be found at my personal website here (https://michaelbayliss.org/). All opinions from PGAP guests, including their past or present legacies, are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of PGAP or Sustainable Population Australia, who support this podcast. Special Guest: Dr Michelle Maloney.
For the 2022 Earth Overshoot Day special of PGAP, we observe the occasion by welcoming Brian Czech, founder of the Centre for the Advancement of the Steady State Economy (CASSE). As a figurehead of the Degrowth movement, Brian makes a perfect voice of reason for this year’s Earth Overshoot Day, which falls on July 28th. In this episode, Brian reflects on the formation and history of CASSE with host Michael Bayliss and how the Steady State and Degrowth movements intersect. He shares his decades of experience and fascinating anecdotes to draw the point home that a steady state revolution is necessary to stop the endless growth paradigm from bringing earth overshoot day all the way to January 01st.
Brian Czech has a Ph.D. in renewable natural resources. He is the founding President of CASSE (https://steadystate.org/), and a prolific author. His scientific articles have appeared in dozens of peer-reviewed journals, dealing primarily with ecological and economic sustainability issues. His books include Supply Shock: Economic Growth at the Crossroads, released in May 2013, Shoveling Fuel for a Runaway Train, which calls for an end to uneconomic growth, and The Endangered Species Act: History, Conservation Biology, and Public Policy. Brian is also an Interdisciplinary Biologist in the national office of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, where he received a 2010 Star Award for outstanding performance. He has played a leading role in engaging the environmental sciences and natural resources professions in ecological economics and macroeconomic policy dialog. Check out Earth Overshoot Day (https://www.overshootday.org/)and Global Footprint Network (https://www.footprintnetwork.org/) for a rundown on Earth Overshoot Day. According to their press release (https://www.overshootday.org/newsroom/press-release-june-2022-english/) for Earth Overshoot Day 2022: “Each year, Earth Overshoot Day marks the date when humanity has used all the biological resources that Earth regenerates during the entire year. Humanity currently uses 75% more than what the planet’s ecosystems can regenerate—or “1.75 Earths.” From Earth Overshoot Day until the end of the year, humanity operates on ecological deficit spending.”
Further: “Earth Overshoot Day 2022 lands on July 28, earlier than last year. Over 50 years of global overshoot have led to a world where aggravated drought and food insecurity are compounded by unseasonably warm temperatures. As the date indicates, humanity continues to widen its annual ecological deficit two years after the pandemic-induced resource-use reductions exceptionally pushed the date back temporarily by 24 days.” As you can see, EOD2022 is an absolute riot! What can YOU do for Earth Overshoot Day? Glad you asked! Use the hashtag #movethedate in your social media correspondence Donate to Earth Overshoot (https://connect.clickandpledge.com/w/Form/bbe9bb84-0784-4cb1-bf50-f40c810d8407)so they can continue their good work Sign the CASSE petition (https://steadystate.org/act/sign-the-position/) calling for a Steady State Economy Support Sustainable Population Australia (https://population.org.au/support/), the only Australian environmental NGO willing to investigate the ‘P’ part of the IPAT equation Last but not least, share this and other episodes of PGAP and rate and review on Apple Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099) (This list is not exhaustive of course. Reduce your consumption, embrace small families, annoy big business and property developers and TRY not to vote for one of the major political parties next time -as tempting as this may be. Basically, be the opposite of Elon Musk)
Enjoy this episode and want to down a rabbit hole of links? With PGAP’s help, you’ll never have to leave your computer screen again! (Thank us later). The CASSE website (https://steadystate.org/) is a great place to start! The Steady Stater Podcast (which Brian hosts) can be found here. (https://steadystate.org/learn/the-steady-stater-podcast/) A fantastic program with a rotation of extremely high quality guests. I was part of that rotation not so long ago! ‘A Song For Post -Growth Australia (with Michael Bayliss) can be found here (https://www.buzzsprout.com/1244474/9663103). The first ever episode of PGAP (https://pgap.fireside.fm/steadystate) interviewed two Australian Chapter directors of CASSE: Martin Tye and Jonathan Miller. See where we began and where PGAP (and CASSE!) have gone since. July has been a busy month at PGAP – on July 11th we commiserated World Population Day. You may be interested in an article I wrote for the YourLifeChoices journal on behalf of Sustainable Population Australia: “Should we rethink a Big Australia for World Population Day (https://www.yourlifechoices.com.au/lifestyle/should-we-rethink-a-big-australia-for-world-population-day/)?” (The question is rhetorical). You may also be interested in SPA’s media release. (https://population.org.au/media-releases/wpd2022/) In the interview I mentioned the EarthX interview (https://video.earthxtv.com/shows/overcomingovershoot/season/1/episode/12) with Brian and Degrowth expert Anitra Nelson. PGAP also interviewed Anitra Nelson (https://pgap.fireside.fm/degrowth) back in Season 1 More information on PGAP host Michael Bayliss can be found on his website here (https://michaelbayliss.org/). _All views and opinions expressed by our guests, including references to their past and present work are totally their own and do not necessarily reflect any views or positions held by Post Growth Australia Podcast. _ Special Guest: Brian Czech.
World Population Day is approaching on July 11. According to the United Nations Population Fund, ‘8 billion people means 8 billion opportunities’, however many population sustainability advocates are not quite so optimistic. For this episode, PGAP welcome back Karen Shragg, American and Degrowth activist, along with two new guests, Madeline Weld and Valorie Allen from Canada. In this special four way discussion, we explore the similarities and contrasts of the population movement in across our respective countries and unite to shred the myths and misconceptions around population sustainability.
Karen Shragg is a lifelong environmentalist, naturalist, educator, poet, author and overpopulation activist based in the USA. Her book ‘Move Upstream, A Call for Overpopulation’ was published in 2015. Her latest book ‘Change Our Stories Change our World’ was published in 2020. Karen maintains the ‘Moving Upstream (https://www.movingupstream.com/)’ blog and is a regular article writer. A recent article “For Your Consideration: To be Anti-Growth is to be Pro-humanity” can be read at Medium here (https://karenshragg.medium.com/for-your-consideration-to-be-anti-growth-is-to-be-pro-humanity-e32a57e8b221).
Madeline Weld is president of Population Institute Canada (https://populationinstitutecanada.ca/) which seeks to inform the Canadian public and policy-makers about population matters. She has impressively held this position for almost 30 years. In the spirit of this episode of busting population myths, Madeline has published many impressive articles on this subject. Favourites include: “The 'Silent Lie' in Coverage of Madagascar’s Famine (https://overpopulation-project.com/the-silent-lie-in-coverage-of-madagascars-famine/),” “The Myth of Canada’s Underpopulation: Lay it to rest (https://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc_23_3/tsc_23_3_weld_1_printer.shtml)” and “Deconstructing the dangerous dogma of denial (https://www.int-res.com/articles/esep2012/12/e012p053.pdf)”.
Valorie Allen has been an activist for 35 years in the environmental, population and animal rights movements, receiving the Canadian Volunteer Award. Her first award-winning book “Growing Pains—A Planet in Distress” was published in 2010. This year, Val has published her new book “8 Billion Reasons Population Matters.” More information regarding her new book can be found here (https://books.friesenpress.com/store/title/119734000096587474). Val’s website, Population In Sync here (https://populationinsync.net/).
Want to find out more about World Population Day? Considering we’re reaching an 8 Billion milestone very soon in a heating world running out of resources, you might imagine that the United Nations Population Fund (UNFP) might sound a little anxious in their write up of the event (https://www.unfpa.org/events/world-population-day). However, they sound pretty upbeat, showing more concern over population ‘alarmists’. Go figure.
The UNFP also raise concerns around the historical legacy of family planning and reproductive health care. Jane O’Sullivan’s article for The Overpopulation Project “History was rewritten to delegitimize population concerns: we need to reassert the truth (https://overpopulation-project.com/history-was-rewritten-to-delegitimize-population-concerns-we-need-to-reassert-the-truth/)” challenges these notions and is essential reading. Given that the high court in the USA has just upended the Roe vs. Wade case, ruling no constitutional right to abortion in the USA, your PGAP host believes this is just the latest in a long trend of denying funding and support for family planning and healthcare. This impacts women for the worse and contributes to the 121 million unintended pregnancies worldwide every year. All the more need for episodes such as this one, bringing together a united female voice to the vexed population issue. Immigration was raised in this episode and on this topic I would like to invite you to watch a small video I made in 2020 for Sustainable Population Australia. “Migrant perspective - infrastructure and population growth in Melbourne (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3_s2zM3-eM&t=407s)” is unique in that a first generation migrant interviewee speaks directly to a population organisation in regard to growth based issues affecting his community in Melbourne’s growth corridors. Regardless of whether you believe this is a ‘population’ issue or merely ‘a lack of planning and infrastructure’, we can all agree that our current growth based paradigm is creating infrastructure starved ghettos that impact the prospects of newly arrived migrants. Can’t get enough PGAP? We don’t blame you! Click here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/wpd) and here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/wpdpartb) for both World Population Day 2020 episodes, including recognisable guests such as Dave Gardner from Growthbusters and Terry Spahr, Director of ‘8 Billion Angels.’ Or our 2021 episodes with Sustainable Population Australia’s John Coulter and Nandita Bajaj from Population Balance. Links here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/wpd2021) and here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/wpb). Karen Shragg was also guest on PGAP last year, her episode ‘Changing Our Story on Population’ can be found here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/movingupstream). Finally, Jane O’Sullivan, quoted in this episode, was interviewed earlier this year, along with SPA Patron Ian Lowe, which can be heard here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/populationclimatechange). That should be enough to keep you busy!
Speaking of Sustainable Population Australia (https://population.org.au/), SPA are proud supporters of PGAP. They are also very kind in allowing PGAP to venture beyond population into a broader conversation on Degrowth. This includes constructive conversations (we hope!) with guests who have very different or even oppositional perspectives on overpopulation. As the only Australian environmental charity currently willing to be centre stage on the ecological impacts of population growth, SPA relies on community support and donations to give momentum for their uphill battle. Consider giving them a little something here. (https://population.org.au/donate/) If you’re still feeling charitable after that, please consider supporting PGAP. Podcasts like ours are the antidote and panacea to a mainstream media that has become corrupt, vacuous and dangerous. It is word of mouth that spread the work of the people, and PGAP is no exception. Please actively share this episode and others among your networks. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099). Please contact us (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact) to let us know what you think to this and other episodes of PGAP and what topics and guests you would like to see in future. More information on PGAP host Michael Bayliss can be found on his website here (https://michaelbayliss.org/). _All views and opinions expressed by our guests, including references to their past and present work are totally their own and do not necessarily reflect any views or positions held by Post Growth Australia Podcast. _ Special Guests: Karen Shragg, Madeline Weld, and Valorie Allen.
At PGAP, we have explored many different ideas and facets within the broad realm of Post Growth. Permaculture is a frequent topic on this podcast, so too is behaviour change and nature based spirituality. But what happens if you combine the best of both worlds? For example, the practicality of permaculture principles in conjunction with transpersonal psychology, energy meditation and nature connection facilitation? You get Dan and Johanna McTiernan, co-founders of Earthbound who live and manage a 6 acre homestead on Finland. Johanna and Dan are the guests of this episode of PGAP as we find out more about Earthbound.
Dan McTiernan is a certified transpersonal psychology coach and subtle energy meditation teacher and has been deeply involved in the permaculture movement as a teacher, entrepreneur, writer and homesteader for 15 years.
Johanna McTiernan is a certified subtle energy meditation teacher and a trained nature connection facilitator. With her husband, Dan, she has created permaculture projects including a community supported bakery in the UK, a regenerative olive and almond farm in Spain and a homestead in her native Finland. She is a lifelong seeker of meaning and meeting her family's needs in deep relationship with the land is her passion.
Earthbound (https://www.earthbound.fi/), the project Dan and Johanna run, offers 1-1 and group coaching facilitating growth, connection and healing at the fertile edge between transpersonal psychology, embodied meditation & permaculture. PGAP host Michael Bayliss first met Dan McTiernan through mutual connections with Holistic Activism founder Mark Allen. You can find out more about Holistic Activism here (https://holisticactivism.net/). Interested in listening to more PGAP episodes on permaculture? You might be interested in the season 3 episode with Shane Simon on Zero Input Agriculture (https://pgap.fireside.fm/zeroinput)or Season 2 episode with Tania Brook (https://pgap.fireside.fm/tasperspect1)s for our Tasmanian Perspectives mini series of interviews. Would you prefer to listen to more episodes on behaviour change and spirituality? Our last episode with Paul Collins (https://pgap.fireside.fm/paulcollins)is a great listen. You might also like to travel back to season 1 for our interview with Darpan. (https://pgap.fireside.fm/darpan) Did you like this episode of PGAP? Then share it far and wide! Rate and review on Apple Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099). Subscribe to PGAP here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/subscribe). You can contact us here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact) to let us know your thoughts on this and other episodes and what topics and guests you would like to see for future episodes. The homepage for PGAP host Michael Bayliss can be found here (https://michaelbayliss.org/). All views and opinions expressed by our guests, including references to their past and present work are totally their own and do not necessarily reflect any views or positions held by Post Growth Australia Podcast. Special Guests: Dan McTiernan and Johanna McTiernan.
In this episode of PGAP, we talk to Dr Paul Collins, former head of the religion and ethics department in the ABC. He is well known as a commentator on Catholicism and the papacy and also has a strong interest in ethics, environmental and population issues. Paul Collins is also patron of Sustainable Population Australia. Although Christianity is not often renowned in the broader community for its position on reproductive health care or environmental concerns, Paul challenges this presupposition. He is unique in his ability to weave theology into a discourse on environmental centred ethics. PGAP interviewed Paul on the back of his new book “The Depopulation Imperative. How many people can earth support?”
Want to find out more about Paul? Visit his website here (http://www.paulcollinscatholicwriter.com.au/). You may also like to watch a short video on Paul from SPA’s meet our patron (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxT6EzxNOBQ) series.
Want your own copy of the “The Depopulation Imperative?” A link to the book here (https://scholarly.info/book/the-depopulation-imperative/). Paul was recently interviewed on ABC Radio National Science Show to promote 'The Depopulation Imperative'. Link to the episode can be found here (https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/all-environmental-problems-traced-to-immense-human-impact/13841030) Pope Francis’ position on choosing pets over babies as ‘selfish’ was referred to on the episode several times. A link to the article from The Guardian can be found here (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/05/pope-couples-choose-pets-children-selfish). What are your thoughts on the issues raised in this or other episodes of PGAP? Contact us here. (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact) Support PGAP by subscribing here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/subscribe) and rate and review us on Apple Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099). Share PGAP among your networks. This episode of PGAP is made possible from the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia (https://population.org.au/). The perspectives and positions held by our guests are theirs only, this includes current and past published works. Not all views necessarily reflect those of PGAP. More information on PGAP host, Michael Bayliss can be found on his website here (https://michaelbayliss.org/) Special Guest: Paul Collins.
“Sustainability and the New Economics: Synthesising Ecological Economics and Modern Monetary Theory” is a new book fresh off the print and on the shelves. It is an impressive volume containing chapters from a host of Australian game-changers including Michael Kirby, Ian Dunlop, Will Steffen and last episode’s guest Ian Lowe. The book details sobering realities regarding business as usual economics, while offering many realistic and applicable solutions based around ecological economics and modern monetary theory. PGAP spoke with lead editor Stephen Williams to find out more about this impressive book, and why economics is front and foremost of the world’s problems and why things need to change.
Stephen Williams has a background in newspaper journalism and law. He began his journalism career at The Canberra Times in 2000 and subsequently specialised in environmental matters. His overarching interest is in designing sustainable societies. He believes mainstream economics can only provide a path to collapse. He is the co-editor of Sustainability and the New Economics: Synthesising Ecological Economics and Modern Monetary Theory (Springer, 2022). Want to find out more about “Sustainability and the New Economics: Synthesising Ecological Economics and Modern Monetary Theory”, purchase your own copy or encourage your local library to stock up? Check out the link to the book here (https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-030-78795-0)
Want to find out more about some of the topics that Stephen brought up in the interview? Modern Money Lab (courses, info): https://modernmoneylab.org.au Herman Daly essay (with top-10 policies): https://www.greattransition.org/publication/economics-for-a-full-world Did you like the economic focus of this episode? You might also like season 2 finale episode with Economic Reform Australia (https://pgap.fireside.fm/era) or The Economics of Arrival with Katherine Trebeck (https://pgap.fireside.fm/arrival). Season 1 has the budget special with unconventional economist Leith van Onselen (https://pgap.fireside.fm/budgetspecial), or reimagining an earth centred economy with Michelle Maloney. (https://pgap.fireside.fm/4) SUPPORT PGAP! Rate and review us on Apple Podcast [here (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099). Subscribe here. (https://pgap.fireside.fm/subscribe) Contact us here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact). See you next episode? You wouldn't miss it for the world! PGAP is made possible with the kind support of Sustainable Population Australia (https://population.org.au/). If you would like to find out more about PGAP host Michael Bayliss, his website can be visited here (https://michaelbayliss.org/) (All opinions, publications and positions held by PGAP guests do not necessarily reflect the positions held by PGAP). Special Guest: Stephen Williams.
Did you know that climate mitigation models show that the only scenarios that avoid dangerous climate change are those which assume global population peaks in the next decade and then declines? Why is no-one talking about this? Luckily for us and the future of the planet, PGAP’s two guests for this episode, Professor Ian Lowe and Doctor Jane O’Sullivan, have written a new discussion paper ‘Population and Climate Change.’ Co-written with Doctor Peter Cook and commissioned by Sustainable Population Australia, this new report uses clear concise language with thorough scientific research to make a very strong case for the role that population plays in this warming world. PGAP speaks with Jane and Ian to unwrap the key points behind the discussion paper and to find out more about the stories behind these two inspiring people.
The discussion paper ‘Population and Climate Change’ can be downloaded from the Sustainable Population Australia website here (https://population.org.au/discussion-papers/climate/). You can find out more about SPA and their recent campaigns here (https://population.org.au/lets-rethink-big-australia/) and here (https://population.org.au/how-you-can-make-a-difference/).
Ian was recently interviewed on ABC’s Radio National Science Show on the ‘Population and Climate Change’ discussion paper here (https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/human-population-the-driver-of-greenhouse-emissions-and-all-env/13771554). As a patron for Sustainable Population Australia, Ian was also interviewed for SPA’s ‘Meet the Patrons’ series of short videos here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3JW6-7O5EU&list=PLqZhQi8eQurRR5xL6xP9qGgyStq4xkVNt&index=4). Ian’s interview can be heard between 00:07:10 and 00:29:52
Jane has just had a very topical article published in The Overpopulation Project: “Ukraine war: temporary glitch or tipping point?” (https://overpopulation-project.com/ukraine-war-temporary-glitch-or-tipping-point/) Last year, she was guest on the award winning US based podcast “This Sustainable Life” (https://podcasts.apple.com/br/podcast/483-jane-osullivan-debunking-the-aging-problem-scam/id1320141457?i=1000527935727&l=en) to discuss SPA’s previous commissioned report “Silver Tsunami Or Silver Lining (https://population.org.au/discussion-papers/ageing/): Why We Should Not Fear an Ageing Population” - which Jane authored. Jane’s interview can be heard between 00:33:08 and 01: 01: 50 I note that the New Economy Network Australia (NENA) were very kind in sharing the ‘Population and Climate Change’ discussion paper. Their director, Dr. Michelle Maloney was one of the first guests on PGAP and both Jane and I have presented at NENA run conferences. NENA is collaborating with Griffith University's Yunus Centre to deliver a short course: " Building the Wellbeing Economy: Foundations for Learning and Practice." The course brings together 21 thought-leaders over 8 weeks to discuss how we might reshape the economy in which both people and the planet thrive. This is critical for any Post-Growth person to consider. To register go here (https://www.neweconomy.org.au/courses/building-a-wellbeing-economy-2022/), or follow the poster below!
Loved the episode? Hated it? Love the episode but hate PGAP? Firecely undecided? We’d love to hear your (constructive) thoughts and feedback by contacting us here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact). Word of mouth is our main tool to crack the mainstream, so please consider sharing this episode, subscribe to PGAP (https://pgap.fireside.fm/subscribe) or rate and reviewing this episode on Apple Podcasts (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099). Want to find out more about the host? Check out my website here (https://michaelbayliss.org/). Special Guests: Dr. Jane O'Sullivcan and Prof. Ian Lowe.
With the twin horsemen of climate change and diminishing fossil fuels impacting food security (did you know that 10 calories of fossil fuel are required per calorie of food?) it is evident that the future of industrial agriculture looks more than a little grim. Given that food is critical for survival, PGAP continues to explore the essential answers to the question: how do we radically change our approach to growing food in the years to come? Dr. Shane Simonsen operates a ‘Zero Input Agriculture’ farm in the highlands of South-East Queensland. What does zero input mean and does it work? Shane shares with PGAP how a zero input system works, in addition to weaving his vast knowledge and unique insights into a very pithy conversation with PGAP host Michael Bayliss.
Shane regularly posts on his farm and his worldly observation on his website, Zero Input Agriculture (https://zeroinputagriculture.wordpress.com/), which we encourage you to explore. Shane has also been a guest on podcasts such as Abundant Edge (https://abundantedge.com/what-would-agriculture-look-like-with-zero-inputs-with-shane-simonsen-author-of-zero-input-agriculture/). Shane and I are mutual contacts of Michel Stasse and Doon Wyborn, both doing great things in permaculture and collapse awareness. Both have also been previous guests on PGAP. You can listen to Doon’s interview here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/bindarrabi)and Michel here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/mikestasse). Do you enjoy this episode? Then please Support PGAP. Subscribe here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/subscribe). Contact us here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact). Rate and review us on Apple Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099). Last episode I interviewed regenerative farming icon Charles Massy (https://pgap.fireside.fm/fenner) to promote the Fenner conference ‘Making Australian Agriculture Sustainable.’ The Fenner conference proved to be fantastic with its array of fantastic speakers and its juggling of the precariousness of Australia’s agricultural predicaments while also offering many hopeful solutions. I certainly learnt a lot more about dung beetles! The conference was supported and sponsored by Sustainable Population Australi (https://population.org.au/)a, who also support this podcast. Good on them! These are a couple of online screenshots from the first day of the conference. I am sure higher quality photos, taken on ground, will be available soon!
The song of choice for this episode is ‘Safe Room’, the first recorded single from my band ‘Shock Octopus’ back in 2011. Back then, songs about collapse were still seen as somewhat niche in the WA music scene (and in mainstream society more broadly). These days, collapse is so obviously a thing that even the Murdoch Press are talking about it! What can I say, I was there first. You can find out more about ‘Safe Room’ at the Shock Octopus Bandcamp page here (https://shockoctopus.bandcamp.com/) (you can even support the artist and buy a copy – hint). Would you like to find out more about PGAP’s host, Michael Bayliss? You can find out more at my website here (https://michaelbayliss.org/). Disclaimer: All opinions from PGAP’s guests are theirs alone, and does not necessarily reflect the opinions or position held by PGAP, Michael Bayliss, or Sustainable Population Australia. This includes all current and previous research, work, advocacy or opinions attributable to our interviewees. Special Guest: Dr. Shane Simonsen.
On March the 17th, a conference will be converging in Canberra called ‘Making Agriculture Sustainable (https://www.sustainableag.org.au/)’. As we all know, Australian agriculture today is largely unsustainable. Soils are degrading and are in need of regeneration and broad acre farming is delivering food in quantity but not always in quality. So this conference will include an exceptional group of speakers to address the question: Can we feed ourselves and not destroy the Earth?
One of the keynote speakers, Charles Massy (https://fennerschool.anu.edu.au/people/visiting/dr-charles-massy), has become a household name in regenerative farming. He has a bestselling book ‘Call of the Reed Warbler: A New Agriculture’ (https://www.booktopia.com.au/call-of-the-reed-warbler-charles-massy/book/9780702263224.html?source=pla&gclid=CjwKCAiAgvKQBhBbEiwAaPQw3K0TUblCtLdJctqBxgH7r_iQJASqkInyHssfnkQrXq-1w1aEl4BW4RoCC8AQAvD_BwE) and has been the subject of an Australian Story (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58G9htz0hTk)episode. PGAP is delighted to have Charles join us to discuss regenerative agriculture in depth and tell us more about the upcoming Fenner conference.
(a sample of the many speakers at the 2022 Feneer conference) To find out more or to register for the 2022 Fenner conference ‘Making Agriculture Sustainable’ click here (https://www.sustainableag.org.au/index.php/register/).
The Australian Story episode of Charles Massy can be found here. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58G9htz0hTk) To find out more about his book ‘Call of the Reed Warbler,’ start here (https://www.booktopia.com.au/call-of-the-reed-warbler-charles-massy/book/9780702263224.html) Rod Taylor, one of the Fenner organisers, has also recently published a book ‘ Ten Journeys on A Fragile Planet.’ Agriculture and care for country are both reoccurring themes in this book. You can find out more here (https://www.odysseybooks.com.au/titles/9781925652789/#:~:text=In%20Ten%20Journeys%20on%20a,This%20book%20tells%20their%20stories.).
This year’s Fenner conference is made possible by the generous support of Sustainable Population Australia (SPA (https://population.org.au/)). SPA are also the main supporters of PGAP. You can read more on their recent discussion paper of ‘Population and Climate Change’ here (https://population.org.au/discussion-papers/climate/). If population policy in Australia is a concern for you in the lead up to the election, SPA offers come handy hints on making a difference here (https://population.org.au/how-you-can-make-a-difference/). SPA relies on grass roots donations, supporters and members to ensure that their important message has cut through in a generally unforgiving media environment. To support SPA, find out more here (https://population.org.au/support/). It has been 50 years since that wonderful but intimating book ‘Limits to Growth’ was published in 1972. It is as relevant as ever (especially as the worst case projections in the book are all playing out on cue). A great article was recently written on the anniversary which can be read here (https://www.resilience.org/stories/2022-02-22/dennis-meadows-on-the-50th-anniversary-of-the-publication-of-the-limits-to-growth/?fbclid=IwAR09bIlOX7qJQU5k1o2nbwIYwIFIOi2Agfxf_suhYvQsco422udNtWnlNm8). Got feedback? Post-Growth ideas? Or would you like to be a guest on PGAP or contribute your music? Then please say hello on our contact page here. (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact) Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099). Share PGAP far and wide – with your kind support PGAP is becoming increasingly known and popular Thank you! The music of choice for this episode is 'Blame It On The Sun' by 'Counting Backwards'. A link to their Bandcamp page can be found here (https://countingbackwards.bandcamp.com/). Want to find out a little more about PGAP’s host? Michael’s website can be visited here (https://michaelbayliss.org/). Special Guest: Charles Massy.
It is true that new houses require a lot a resources and emissions to build. So, it is critical that when we must build, that we do it right. Otherwise we waste so much in heating, air conditioning, repairs, demolition and all the other emission trappings with running a house. For this episode of PGAP, we chat with Simone Schenkel, award winning certified passive house designer and director of Victorian based Gruen Eco Design. Simone explains to host Michael Bayliss the fundamentals of passive housing design, how to make eco housing more affordable and why eco building should be the rule and not the exception in Australia’s construction industry. In true PGAP fashion, we also discuss the systemic issues that result in Australians paying high prices for what have been described as ‘glorified tents’ and what needs to change.
Thinking of building your eco-home or want to find more about the fundamentals of passive housing design with Gruen Eco Design? Check out their Website (https://gruenecodesign.com.au/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/gruen_eco_design/)or their Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/GruenEcoDesign) and group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/GruenEcoDesignSustainableLivingTribe). The way we plan and design our homes, communities and cities are an overlooked but critical component of the Post-Growth transition. You may be interested in our previous episode, ‘A Public Housing Revolution (https://pgap.fireside.fm/degrowthousing)’ with Degrowth academic Dr Alex Baumann. This episode has proven to be very popular, touching a nerve with many new listeners.
What are your thoughts on the state of Australia’s housing and urban planning systems? Most of us have very strong opinions on these issues as they have a huge impact on our time, money and lives. Share your ideas with PGAP by contacting us on our contact page (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact). Rate and review us on Apple Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099)and share this podcast widely to your friends, family, archenemies and the neighbourhood cat. The music of choice for this episode was ‘Little Pete’s Playground’ from West Australian band ‘Soon (https://soonband.bandcamp.com/album/always-again)’. For anyone into early 90s Shoegaze, the entire EP is a delight and one of my favourite albums of all time. PGAP is made possible with the kind support of SPA (https://population.org.au/) Special Guest: Simone Schenkel.
Housing is an essential human need, but as the average median house price in Australian capital cities now exceed $1 million, this requires some very significant dropping into the marketplace in order to afford a roof over our heads. According to the research of PGAP’s esteemed guest Dr. Alex Baumann, the act of owning a property of one’s own can place one in that dreaded 1% richest people in the world. Alex discusses why the privatisation of land forces us all into lifestyles that are antithetical to the degrowth movement and why housing needs to be at the core of post-growth activism. Alex also explains why public housing is one overlooked solution and how reinvigorating this asset is part and parcel to a degrowth future. Ready to have your whole perspective on housing turned around? This is the episode for you!
Dr. Alex Baumann and I found each other on the Town Planning Reblellion (TPR) Facebook group. Find out more about TPR and its parent organisation, Holistic Activism here (https://holisticactivism.net/town-planning-rebellion-tpr/). Want to be an ACTIVE part of the housing revolution? This is a great place to start. I interviewed TPR founder, Mark Allen on season 2’s “Exploring Christie Walk EcoHousing with Adelaide Chronicles and Town Planning Rebellion. (https://pgap.fireside.fm/christiewalk)” If you liked the themes in this episode you’ll love that one. I first came across Alex’s good work in an article in The Conversation titled: “We are the 1%: the wealth of many Australians puts them in an elite club wrecking the planet (https://theconversation.com/we-are-the-1-the-wealth-of-many-australians-puts-them-in-an-elite-club-wrecking-the-planet-151208).” The article was co-written with Samuel Alexander, whose has been a inspiration for me in the Degrowth movement. Speaking of Samuel Alexander! The song of choice for this episode, “Meditations on Simplicity” is from the Mortimer’s Method album ‘Dreaming Backwards, Falling Awake’ (https://mortimersmethod.bandcamp.com/album/dreaming-backwards-falling-awake), based on excerpts from the Degrowth fiction novel ‘Entropia’ by Samuel Alexander. ‘Entropia’ isn’t the only fiction work on post-growth out there. PGAP interviewed Sharon Ede (https://pgap.fireside.fm/magenovel), post-growth activist and author of ‘Mage’, in season two of PGAP. Alex is even more animated on video! He explains many of the points raised in this episode and more in the YouTube video “A New Path to Sustainability (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRHIhmxknF4).” Ted Trainer is an inspiration for Alex and was brought up several times during the interview. You can hear the PGAP interview with Ted in full here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/tedtrainer). Finally, Martin Tye, Australian regional chapter director of CASSE, will be giving a zoom presentation for the Sustainable Living Festival on "Degrowth & the Steady State" on 06th February, 9am AEDT. More information can be found on the SLF website (http://www.slf.org.au/event/degrowth-steady-state/). Martin was a guest on the first ever episode of PGAP (https://pgap.fireside.fm/steadystate) and I’m sure he will be just as excellent in his presentation as he was on the episode! Essentially, I can't recommend him enough. Please contact PGAP (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact) with your thoughts and feedback or rate and review us on Apple Podcast. (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099) Share PGAP with your friends, families, network, your bitter enemies and the neighbourhood cat. Basically, everyone. Post-Growth Australia Podcast is made possible from the kind support of SPA (https://population.org.au/) Special Guest: Alex Baumann.
Permaculture is a popular topic on PGAP. Many who practice permaculture tend to also resonate with post-growth ideas. But for those in the post-growth movement who don’t like to garden, are there still things we can learn from permaculture? Can permaculture principles be applied to the wider economic, political and social change movements, or should permaculture keep itself to the garden bed? A new book, ‘The Politics of Permaculture’ endeavours to unpack the theory and practice of this popular and broad social movement. Author Terry Leahy collated many interviews and points of view from permaculture practitioners across the world, from Australia to Zimbabwe and everywhere in-between, to capture the many perspectives of how permaculture is understood. He shares this and more with PGAP, including his own vision for a future gift economy.
Having crossed paths with Terry Leahy through several community, gardening and permaculture initiatives in Melbourne, it was fantastic to reconnect with Terry again and dig in deep (literally and figuratively) over this very fascinating and thought provoking book. Support Post-Growth Australia Podcast. Subscribe to us through this link (https://pgap.fireside.fm/subscribe). Contact us on the contact form here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact). Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast here (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099). PGAP exists free of corporate sponsorship and advertising, so we rely exclusively on word of mouth to sow the seeds of the podcast that explores the most critical issues facing the planet. Would you like your very own copy of 'The Politics of Permaculture?' You can acquire it through Pluto Press here (https://www.plutobooks.com/9780745342740/the-politics-of-permaculture/)
The song of choice from this episode is the very topical 'Climate Movement' from Formidable Vegetable. (https://formidablevegetable.bandcamp.com/track/climate-movement). Given how many times I have played Formidable Vegetable on PGAP, it is fair to say that I am quite the fan. It was wonderful to see them play live at New Years Eve in Albany and to discover we are (sort of) neighbours.
If you would like to find out more about Terry Leahy's work he has kindly provided some links below: Leahy, Terry (2019) Food Security for Rural Africa: Feeding the Farmers First, Routledge (https://www.routledge.com/Food-Security-for-Rural-Africa-Feeding-the-Farmers-First/Leahy/p/book/9780367665753). Leahy, Terry (2017) Humanist Realism for Sociologists, Routledge, (https://www.routledge.com/Humanist-Rea-lism-for-Sociologists/Leahy/p/book/9780367876982) Leahy, Terry, Website – The Gift Economy (www.gifteconomy.org.au) Leahy, Terry – YouTube channel: What’s Wrong with the World and How to Fix it. (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCevqm8Jva1aeaJ6r0RzjZGw) Leahy, Terry and sister Leahy, Gillian (2013) The Chikukwa Project documentary - 53 minutes version (https://vimeo.com/376455835) Leahy, Terry and sister Leahy, Gillian (2013) The Chikukwa Project documentary- 20 minutes educational version (https://vimeo.com/285882471) And if this wasn't enough links: I recently had my 'post-growth manifesto' (https://medium.com/ending-overshoot/my-manifesto-for-a-post-growth-world-c2e1e8e53f73) published on the Ending Overshoot blog. It is based on the script I used for the Christmas 2021 PGAP special. In Season 1 of PGAP I interviewed Anitra Nelson (https://pgap.fireside.fm/degrowth)who had just co-authored an exciting overview of the Degrowth movement. I actually met Anitra through one of Terry's day parties. It is all one big happy and most functional family at PGAP! Too much permaculture barely enough? PGAP has interviewed David Holmgren (https://pgap.fireside.fm/holmgren), Caroline Smith (https://pgap.fireside.fm/tasperspect3), Tania Brookes (https://pgap.fireside.fm/tasperspect1) and Artist as Family (https://pgap.fireside.fm/artistasfamily) Special Guest: Terry Leahy.
“I started bringing leadership into the environment. Because I felt like there’s a lot of people telling other people what to do, spreading facts and figures. But no-one really making it enjoyable. Saying you’re going to like this, you’re going to wish you started earlier, speaking from personal experience.” Joshua Spodek (https://joshuaspodek.com/)is a bestseller author, multiple TEDx talker and host of award winning podcast “This Sustainable Life (https://joshuaspodek.com/leadership-and-the-environment-top-downloads)”. Joshua is a huge advocate for the environment and for system change toward a post-growth planet. He takes his politics into his home life and made some incredible life transformations in his mission to living more sustainably. So, how has a move toward a meat-free life of no food packaging and no plane miles played out for our special guest on the Season 3 Premiere of PGAP? Is this a life of wilful deprivation and martyrdom? Or have these personal challenges transformed his life into one of joy and a different kind of abundance? Joshua tells all through amusing personal anecdotes coupled with an incredibly well-read and researched outlook on the world.
“We have to change ourselves if we expect others to change. Being right is….really annoying.” - Joshua Spodek Welcome back to Post-Growth Australia Podcast after a brief hiatus. I for one am very honoured to be launching the Season 3 Premiere of PGAP with such as distinguished guest as Joshua Spodek. His long history in public speaking alone will ensure that your ears are serenaded for the next 60 minutes! A cursory viewing of any of his TEDx talks will prove my point: here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GMTpaxlLGg); here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTYiHr1lu10); or here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb3nwRZmKBo); You may also have noticed that PGAP has had a bit of face-lift, with an update to the graphics courtesy of Squeaky Pea designs. I hope you like the changes! Looking forward to a mammoth season 3 with a stellar array of amazing guests. The new intro sounds for Season 3 PGAP provided courteousy of Perth composer Nicholas Gardiner. Find out more here (https://www.nicholasgardiner.com/). “Growth on its own means always craving what you don’t have. It means craving. It means ‘never satisfied’.” – Joshua Spodek I first discovered Joshua big time when he interviewed my colleague from Sustainable Population Australia (https://population.org.au/), Dr. Jane O’Sullivan (https://researchers.uq.edu.au/researcher/4920)on his podcast ‘This Sustainable Life. (https://joshuaspodek.com/podcast)’ Jane was invited to discuss a recent discussion paper she wrote for SPA debunking the ageing population crisis myth. ‘Silver Tsunami or Silver Lining: Why we should not fear an ageing population’ is available on the SPA website (https://population.org.au/discussion-papers/ageing/) and makes for very eye-opening reading.
The link to the interview can be found here. (https://joshuaspodek.com/guests/jane-osullivan) ‘This Sustainable Life’ is an amazing podcast series where big name guests are invited to make personal changes to their lives – for the inspiration of all! I myself have an interview coming up on the offshoot podcast series ‘This Sustainable Life: Solve For Nature (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-sustainable-life-solve-for-nature/id1550434786).’ Stay tuned!
_ “Efficiency in a finite world with growth leads to scarcity.” _– Joshua Spodek In the introduction to this episode I brought up how Australia is facing a urea shortage which has potentially dire consequences for our diesel and trucking industries (whould woulda thunk?) If you are interested in reading more, have a gander here (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/dec/08/what-is-urea-and-why-does-a-worldwide-shortage-threaten-australias-supply-chain). The above is just one symptom of what will soon be a much larger chain of supply chain issues and resource scarcity. Last month I shared around this article “It’s Not a Supply Chain Crisis — It’s a Failing Economy” (https://eand.co/its-not-a-supply-chain-crisis-it-s-a-failing-economy-b5f8aee2064c?gi=c506c568186d) on my Twitter feed just in time for the festive season! Want me to discuss limits to growth at YOUR next festive event? Pick up the phone - I'm a literal SCREAM at parties! _ “next time you’re stuck in Traffic, next time you’re waiting in line some place, imagine a world of 2 billion people.”_ Sustainable Population Australia, who support this podcast, aren’t claiming to turn the world’s numbers back to 2 billion overnight, but they are loudly advocating for an equitable world with equitable access to family planning and reproductive health services. They are also advocating to decouple population policy in Australia from the narrow interests of big business and big finance. Have a look at their ‘Let’s Rethink Big Australia’ (https://population.org.au/lets-rethink-big-australia/) campaign. “my swimming upstream makes it so that others feel they’re swimming downstream – and then it feels like I’m swimming downstream as well.” If you loved this episode we have some choice PGAP recommendations for you. Amrit Sandhu from Season 2 'Inspired Evolution' (https://pgap.fireside.fm/inspiredevolution) episode is also a podcast host and a personal transformation coach. Meg and Patrick from Artist as Family, who premiered season 2 (https://pgap.fireside.fm/artistasfamily), live through example in their ‘neo-peasantry’ homestead in Victoria, Australia. Lastly, Nandita Bajaj (https://pgap.fireside.fm/wpb), director of Population Balance, is another vegan in North America who lives a minimalist lifestyle and advocates for a sustainable population. Please remember to rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast. (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099) If you have any suggestions, feedback, or just want to say “hi’ please feel free to contact me anytime on the contact form thus (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact). Til next time, til then! Special Guest: Joshua Spodek.
The festive season is upon us as we wrap close to another year in the decade of consequence. To ‘celebrate’, PGAP host Michael Bayliss shares his own personal vision for a post-growth future. He looks back nostalgically on his Melbourne years, reflecting on the many successes and challenges from ten years in many various grassroots community initiatives. He also plays a selection of songs, penned by himself or by friends that espouse the Degrowth values of this podcast even if they may not inspire complete festive cheer. Enjoy!
During our break between seasons, PGAP has been busy updating the graphics and the sound. What do you think of the new look? The graphics were provided by Adelaide’s Squeaky Pea Designs (https://www.squeakypeadesigns.com/). The new intro theme was provided by Perth based composer and film scorer Nicholas Gardiner (https://www.nicholasgardiner.com/). Please contact PGAP anytime (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact) to share your thoughts. Rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099) – that would be the perfect Christmas gift (hint! Hint!) I also have a brand new Website now! Check it out here (https://michaelbayliss.org/). ‘Michalbayliss.org’ is a depository of all my creativity, public outreach and multimedia projects over the years. I can also be contacted through the website for any collaborative opportunities that you may have in mind. I am available for interview, article writing, sound/video editing, project management, all at very competitive degrowth rates. PGAP is not the only podcast where I have been busy. I have recently been a guest on both the ‘Overpopulation Podcast’ (https://population.org.au/spa-interviewed-on-overpopulation-podcast/) and ‘The Steady Stater’ (https://www.buzzsprout.com/1244474/9663103) where I have been honoured to have some of my most enjoyable conversations in my life with some of the best hosts and all round human beings one could hope for. Stick around and have a gander! I mentioned Town Planning Rebellion (https://holisticactivism.net/town-planning-rebellion-tpr/) on this episode and have interviewed TPR’s founder, Mark Allen, on two occasions during PGAP’s history. Mark has been particularly influential on my activism, outlook and attitudes, and I strongly recommending checking out ‘Holistic Activism’ (https://holisticactivism.net/). Mark also founded the music project ‘Counting Backwards’ who provided the exclusively demo track ‘Miserable Sodding Christmas’ for this episode. You can discover Counting Backwards music here (https://countingbackwards.bandcamp.com/). Speaking of influences. I would like to acknowledge the work of Michelle Maloney, Anitra Nelson, Ian Lowe, Katherine Trebeck and Anne Poelina for having an impact on my views, outlooks, and philosophical positions that I have shared on this episode. I’ve been lucky enough to have them all as guests on PGAP! I’m sure we don’t share eye to eye on every single issue and I'm quite proud of holding my own opinions. Nevertheless, it is good to wear your influences on your sleeve! And finally, my band Shock Octopus, shared two songs on this episode: ‘A Deer Caught In The Headlights’ (https://shockoctopus.bandcamp.com/track/a-deer-caught-in-the-headlights-4) and ‘So Far From Home (https://shockoctopus.bandcamp.com/track/so-far-from-home)’. The entire catalogue can be seen on Bandcamp (https://shockoctopus.bandcamp.com/)or on my website. (https://michaelbayliss.org/music) Stick around for the new year when PGAP launches season 3 in style with a star studded cast of special guests. Until then, have a great festive season.
In this final episode of season 2, PGAP speaks with Economic Reform Australia (ERA) to find out why fundamental changes to our economic systems are a crucial part of a transition toward degrowth. Why do we have an economic system that prizes money and extraction over the environment and prospects for future generations? What is this ‘MMT’ that everyone is on about these days? Why is economics something that everyone should try to understand and not just leave to the academics and experts? PGAP travels to Adelaide to chat with ERA’s very own Bernard Thomson to find out more. PGAP also speaks with freelance economic thinker Zoltan Bexley to find out more about why Australia’s current economic system results in many poor outcomes for many of us, such as the favourite bugbear on PGAP – Australia’s housing unaffordability crisis. _ Please not that opinions raised in this episode are those of both guests and may not necessarily reflect the opinions of ERA as a whole. _ Host Michael Bayliss reflects on the dizzying last 12 months on the road, armed with microphone and recording hardware, that has resulted in on-the-ground PGAP views spanning the east coast from the highlands of the NSW/QLD border, down to Tasmania, then across to Adelaide. Now settled in Albany, Western Australia, I take time on this episode to reflect on the amazing journey and the incredible diversity of people doing outstanding post-growth things as we finally wrap up for season 2 of PGAP. PGAP will be taking a short break to revamp our graphics, create a new website and most importantly, take a well-earned break before we return with a vengeance for season 3. In the meantime, you can while away the time by meandering through these following links: The Economic Reform Australia (ERA) website can be found here. (https://era.org.au/) Sign up for a regular online journal and if you live in Adelaide, ERA regularly host events that take place within the heart of Adelaide's CBD. Please take the time during PGAP’s break to rate and review this podcast. Apple Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099) seems best place to do so. We would love to hear your thoughts and opinions on PGAP. Please don’t hesitate to contact us on our contact page (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact)to let us know what you truly think of us (within reason). If you would like to be interviewed by PGAP, or know someone you’d like to dob in, please contact us. Host Michael Bayliss is also available for interview – he loves being a host but he also misses being a guest! PGAP relies on word of mouth to get around, we don’t use any advertising or paid promotion. So, please get out there and spread our agnostic gospel on post-growth. Michael wrote statement on behalf of Sustainable Population Australia, “Rethinking Big Australia: the impacts of COVID-19” (https://population.org.au/covid-statement_2021/). Extracts from the statement have been published at ‘Independent Australia’ (https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/hitting-the-snooze-button-on-big-australia-in-the-wake-of-covid-19,15598) and the ‘Ending Overshoot’ (https://medium.com/ending-overshoot/in-a-post-covid-world-it-is-time-to-rethink-a-big-australia-40f885373e48) blog. PGAP is made possible from the support of ‘Sustainable Population Australia' (https://population.org.au/). At PGAP, we put our hat off to SPA for allowing this podcast to explore the broader issue of degrowth in which the population debate is one controversial but a necessary moving piece of discussion in the movement. Throughout the two seasons of PGAP, we often ask our guests at least one question of population and invite a diversity of opinions that invites open discussion rather than closed division. This is the only way we’re going to move forward on issues that we may not always see eye to eye on. Speaking of SPA, they have launched a ‘Let’s Rethink Big Australia’ (https://population.org.au/lets-rethink-big-australia/) campaign. We invite you to check it out. Speaking of checking out, PGAP wishes you well and see you soon for season 3. Timestamp: Intro 00:00 - 06:56 Bernard 07:08 - 34:16 Zoltan 34:24 - 01:02:05 Outro 01:02:16 - 01:04:58 Special Guests: Bernard Thomson and Zoltan Bexley.
“What we feel shapes what we believe. What if we could feel the future before it arrives?” So reads the back cover of new fiction book ‘Mage’ written by sustainability professional, post-growth advocate and Adelaide local Sharon Ede. In this penultimate episode of the second season of PGAP, Sharon tells us why fiction, story-telling and emotional resonance are essential communications tools for the environmental movement to engage with the broader community. Providing facts and figures to rally the troops over large-scale existential crises has so far failed to work. Engaging people emotionally through storytelling and providing a ripping yarn just might be the missing link. Mage is definitely this kind of book and hopefully this interview will convince you to add 'Mage' to your post-growth library.
I have not come across much post-growth fiction in my travels. Up until a few years ago, the 1970s novel ‘Ecotopia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecotopia#Reception)’ provided a fascinating day-to-day account on how a more ecocentric society might operate on the west coast of the USA. Unfortunately, the book is starting to show its age somewhat in some of its social justice attitudes when looked back through the lens of the 21st century. A much more up to date fictional account of a post-growth society can be found in the 2013 novel ‘Entropia’ (https://au.permacultureprinciples.com/product/entropia/) by Dr Samuel Alexander. At a seminar at the 2019 Earth Ethics conference in Melbourne, Dr Alexander shared with attendees the importance for story-telling and art to carry the environmental message to the broader world. In fact, the music project ‘Mortimer's Method’ (https://mortimersmethod.bandcamp.com/) took this idea of art as education a step further by putting samples from the audio-book of 'Entropia' to modern music. An extract of the track 'How Now Shall We Live' is provided at the end of the episode.
‘Mage’ joins this pantheon and yet Sharon Ede goes beyond utopian society fiction and casts a much broader net with her new novel. Spanning the continents between Adelaide, Venice and the Arctic, Mage brings together many of the ideas and innovations that Sharon has picked up through her years as an environmental and Post-Growth advocate. It is a ripping epic of a yarn, worthy of comparisons to Dan Brown, Tim Powers or even an episode of Doctor Who. This episode was recorded, once more, on site at Christie Walk (https://www.urbanecology.org.au/eco-cities/christie-walk/) eco-development in Central Adelaide. In fact, it was recorded on the same evening as my interview with Sue Gilbey and Mark Allen in the previous episode of PGAP! So thank you to Christie Walk for providing the venue and Sue for providing the recording technology. Sue and Mark stayed around for the interview, so on occasion they can be heard in the background during the interview. It has been a pleasure to spend some time in Adelaide and to interview the post-growth movers and shakers who call this fine part of the world home. So it is with slight sadness on my part that this is not only the penultimate episode of The Adelaide series of interviews, but also the penultimate episode of the second series of PGAP. The second season of PGAP has been an epic travelogue almost worthy of ‘Mage’ including on site interviews from Northern Rivers to Adelaide and just about everywhere in between. It has been an incredible ride and thank you all for listening and travelling with me on this journey of discovery. Too much Post-Growth barely enough? Here are some links to further occupy your time. Thank me later! A online link to find out more about Mage (and the seal the deal on your own personal copy) can be found here (https://www.magethenovel.com/) Want to find out more about Sharon and her extensive work outside of writing great fiction? Make a good start here (https://medium.com/@sharonede) The previous episode of PGAP was also recorded at Christie Walk (link here) (https://pgap.fireside.fm/christiewalk). Sue Gilbey interviewed Sharon for the Adelaide Chronicles podcast (link here) (https://adelaidechronicles.com/mage/) I mentioned Dr Michelle Maloney and the Earth Ethics conference of 2019. Michelle and her work with Australian Earth Law Alliance (AELA) and New Economy Network Australia (NENA) were interviewed for PGAP here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/4) Sharon was a founding member of the Post Growth Institute (https://www.postgrowth.org/). PGI's Robert Wanalo was interviewed in PGAP season 1 here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/pgo) The ABC article I referred to in the intro for this episode was titled "Sustainable development won't solve environmental crises, say these experts. It's simpler than that" (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-07/the-myth-of-sustainable-development/100504448?fbclid=IwAR03ZNRqZL2YaCwQjsRKiXCqWTC5u60fuco42a2YKT3pMU5k7rjJ8eOZBK8) Special Guest: Sharon Ede.
This special and unorthodox episode of PGAP was recorded on-site the Christie Walk ecological co-housing development in central Adelaide to speak to not one, but TWO very special guests. Sue Gilbey is a resident of Christie Walk, host of the Adelaide Chronicles podcast series, an environmental activist, and an advocate for social justice causes. She is the only Australian (so far) to receive the internationally acclaimed Bremen Peace Award. Mark Allen is the founder of Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism. He is a former town planner and former co-host of the City Limits program on Melbourne’s 3CR radio station. In this episode, Sue takes us on a virtual tour of Christie Walk as an example of sustainable inner city community development. Mark provides insight and clarity as to why places like Christie Walk are the exception and not the rule -and why we need to fight back at Australia’s broken property and housing sector (and those who profit most from this status quo).
This is an interview in two parts. In part one of the interview, I caught up with Sue at Christie Walk (https://www.urbanecology.org.au/eco-cities/christie-walk/) to share her amazing life story, which includes a travelogue of rural Australia, Bangladesh and Cambodia. She shares her work campaigning for a sustainable and inclusive future for all people. Sue herself lives with an acquired disability, but this has not held her back from her tireless activism which includes hosting the incredible Adelaide Chronicles (https://adelaidechronicles.com/) podcast.
In Part 2, I met up again with Sue at Christie Walk and was delighted to be joined by Mark Allen from Town Planning Rebellion (https://holisticactivism.net/town-planning-rebellion-tpr/)and Holistic Activism (https://holisticactivism.net/). Using Christie Walk as a central focus, the conversation then broadens into a discussion at to why alternative housing models are a critical part of the transition toward a post-growth world. Further, how the developer and investor infiltrated housing sector makes this crucial change so difficult. Mark Allen is a return guest to PGAP, having been a special guest in last year’s Retrosuburbia episode with David Holmgre (https://pgap.fireside.fm/holmgren)n. Mark also provides the music for this episode, via the track ‘Lost and Found Hours’ from his music project ‘Counting Backwards (https://countingbackwards.bandcamp.com/).’ This was the first time PGAP has attempted a three way interview on location and we were very fortunate to take advantage of Sue’s amazing portable 360 degree recording device. Sue and I ebb in an out of swapping ‘interviewer’ and ‘interviewee’ roles but I think we just about pull it off in a post-modern way. It is not every day you get to describe the aims of your podcast on your own show but we live in fascinating times. This episode was recorded with gratitude on unceded Kaurna land and PGAP pays respect to elders past, present and emerging. Special Guests: Mark Allen and Sue Gilbey.
*Post Growth Australia Podcast travels to Animals Anonymous HQ in the Adelaide Hills to chat with Adrian Sherriff – wildlife demonstrator, native vegetation restorer, and co-host of the excellent Aussie Wildlife Show podcast. As a wildlife demonstrator, Adrian brings native mammals, reptiles and birds to schools, universities and other groups to provide kids and adults an up close and personal education on Australia’s unique and diverse animals. As co-host of Aussie Wildlife Podcast with Steve Crawford, he chats to a range of fascinating guests around everything wildlife and beyond. As someone who sees the bigger picture of human impact on this dry and ancient continent and the impact this has on other species, Adrian also shares with PGAP his vision of a Post-Growth future. *
This is not the first time that a conversation between Adrian and I has been recorded! I first met Adrian back in 2018 on a prior visit to Adelaide where we bonded over Sustainable Population (it is actually possible to bond over this controversial issue – trust me!) Not only did we bond, I was also invited to talk exclusively on this issue as the (then) new Communications Manager for SPA. We recorded outside and the interview ended both abruptly and apocalyptically as a storm surged through toward the end. I took it as a sign of the times we are in! Adrian was the first person I contacted when I arrived back in Adelaide in March this year. My stay was only supposed to be ‘a couple of weeks’ - this turned out to be nearly six months in the end! Anyway, I was delighted when Adrian said an emphatic ‘yes’ to a return interview for PGAP. It was great to come back to the property and capture Adrian’s own thoughts issues such as population, degrowth, and what a different, more eco-centric society looks like for him. It was also a great opportunity to ask some questions around the ethics of domesticating native animals and the pros and cons around this. I have always found the conversations with fellow podcast hosts an extra blast and Adrian proves to be no exception. It was also a fantastic opportunity to meet with the animals at Animals Anonymous HQ and wander his property, including an impressive native vegetation restoration project. Below is me bonding with a python and overcoming my ophiophobia.
A word of warning: For some reason my recording apparatus struggled with the numerous background sounds on the site of Adrian’s property and overcompensated by dipping in and out of volume throughout the discussion. From the technology's perspective, it was trying to do the right thing, but at the end of the day I have to give it an A for effort but an F for execution and for not consulting with me its intent. I spent days on manual ‘volume’ control editing to even out the worst of it but unfortunately it still sounds a bit shaky. Also – because I had to record the intro and outro before I left Adelaide, I had no idea of what music I was going to play for the episode so I didn’t say anything ‘on air.’ So let it be written that I’m honoured to be playing a track from local Adelaide musician and dear friend of mine Sean Tyner called ‘On The Streets.' I hope you all forgive me for the recording quirks on this occasion. I promise to make it up to you next time! And a couple of links before we say adieu: The Animals Anonymous website can be found here (https://animalsanonymous.com.au/) The Aussie Wildlife Show can be found here on Podbea (https://aussiewildlifeshow.podbean.com/)n. It can be found on many Podcast listening platforms. If you haven’t had enough of me rabbiting on and want to know what I sound like as an interview, my interview with Aussie Wildlife Show can be found here (https://podbay.fm/p/aussie-wildlife-show/e/1549767560). Sean Tyner’s music can be found on his website here. (https://www.seantyner.com/) Finally, thank you to Sustainable Population Australi (https://population.org.au/)a for making PGAP possible. You may be interested in their new short video 'Let's rethink Big Australia' here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITFjmKjOdUY&t=5s) Special Guest: Adrian Sherriff.
Doone Wyborn is the founder of the Bindarrabi intentional community, inland and uphill of the northern rivers. A former geologist, he worked on the potential of Enhanced Geothermal Systems (EGS) geothermal energy from 1992 to retirement in 2013 and is recognised as a leading Australian authority on this subject. With his finger definitely on the pulse on environmental science and limits to growth, Doone started an intentional community based around community sufficiency, frugal abundance and low carbon living. On a very rainy summer afternoon, Doone shares with PGAP the ins and outs of Bindarrabi community, why societal collapse is a very real and current threat, and why intentional living away from the big capital cities is a very legitimate thing to do!
This special travelogue episode of PGAP was recorded all the way back in January 2021. My car and I had left Melbourne after the second lockdown and we were enjoying the coastline of NSW when COVID started creeping into Sydney and Brisbane again. Originally I intended to only go as far north as Coffs Harbour, but as I couldn’t get back to Victoria, I received an invitation to stay for a week or so at in intentional community inland of the Northern Rivers, right on the border of Queensland and right near a town called ‘Woodenbong.’ I was intrigued and took up the offer.
At Bindarrabi, I joined the residents at house meetings, communal dinners, gardening bees, path and wall building, and a lot of swimming during the warm days at the amazing water holes. Every single one of the amazing residents at Bindarrabi were incredibly gracious and made me feel right at home and part of a buzzing community. Toward the end of my stay, Doone and I impulsively agreed to record an interview, in a tin caravan come office during a heavy sub-tropical summer rainfall. I feel that this gives the interview a sense of place an intimacy. I’m not sure why I held onto this interview for so long, however the broadcast of this episode falls shortly after the sobering news of the new report by the IPCC. This is accidentally great timing, as Doone’s interview starts off with a tour of Bindarrabi before going deeper into a reflection of overshoot, collapse and environmental tipping points. Doon does not shy away from sharing his emotions and concerns as the interview progresses and indeed I feel compelled to give a slight disclaimer to be emotionally prepared before listening to this episode. The choice of music this episode is ‘No Easy Way Down’ from my own band ‘Shock Octopus.’ . Given the sobering news of the IPCC report and some of the discussions in this interview, I thought it would be quite thematically consistent to play a song that is about climate change from the perspective of a polar bear. ‘No Easy Way Down’ was released as a fundraiser single last year to raise funds for Extinction Rebellion.
Following the episode, want to explore some more? Let these links be thine guide! The sixth assessment report of The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) can be read in full here. (https://www.ipcc.ch/) Given the future of existence depends in part on following these recommendations, I do agree taking the time to read in full. Otherwise, I like the summary from The Guardian here. (https://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2021/aug/12/the-ipcc-report-is-a-massive-alert-that-the-time-for-climate-action-is-nearly-gone-but-crucially-not-gone-yet) The homepage for the Bindarrab (https://www.bindarrabi.com/)i community can be found here. They are looking for new additions to their community if you’re feeling the call. Recently I spoke at Adelaide based Economic Reform Australia (https://era.org.au/). I strongly recommend checking them out, they have a great newsletter full of economic critique articles. I was interviewed on Radio Adelaide Songcatcher (https://radioadelaide.org.au/program/songcatcher/2021-08-02/) and Mixtape (https://radioadelaide.org.au/program/mixtape/2021-08-02/)programs to talks about the stories behind the songs with my decade long band Shock Octopus. If you’re tired of hearing me ramble about post-growth and would rather I ramble about another topic, these links are for you. A huge thanks to Sustainable Population Australia (https://population.org.au/)for making the podcast possible. Special Guest: Doone Wyborn.
World Population Day may now be a week behind us, but its legacy lives on! In this episode, host Michael Bayliss talks to the new Executive Director of World Population Balance, Nandita Bajaj. WPB is a North American organisation dedicated to tackling the overpopulation issue through education, campaigns and podcasts – they are the makers of the Overpopulation Podcast after all! Nandita and Michael discovered they have many shared values beyond population including minimalism, being childfree and, most excitingly for both of us, we are big on veganism and animal rights! Therefore, our conversation goes in many pithy directions and intersections. Nandita also shares with PGAP her visions for the future of World Population Balance, her perspectives on the challenges of inclusion and diversity within the population sustainability movement, and her experiences growing up in the world’s second most populous country India.
I find it incredible that in 1 year, 24 episodes and 34 interviews I haven’t yet had the ‘vegan chat’ with any of my guests on PGAP. This all changed with Nandita! To celebrate this milestone, I play the song ‘Abolicion’ from the Peru/Melbourne pop-punk project, Futuro Vegan Pop. The lead brains behind this musical project, Pedro Allemant, is a long-time friend of yours truly and a total inspiration in the animal activism sphere. I even played keyboards on a couple of Futuro songs back in ye days afore the COVID when we never ‘ad it so good.
I also share my interview on Australian Talk Back radio following the excitement, confusion and hostility in the mainstream media after Population Matters ‘Change Champions’ awards the other week. The media weren’t that interested in the Women’s Champion award that went to Wendo Aszed in Kenya, or Kohinur Khyum Tithila from Bangladesh who received the Media award. Rather, they were far more preoccupied with the special award given to the Duke and Duchess of Sussex who received a ‘special’ award for stopping at two children. Anything to do with Harry and Meghan has a peculiar effect on our collective psyche, and it raises the question, is it better to avoid the royals and receive little attention, or include the royals and receive a lot of mostly hostile media attention? A philosophical musing indeed that still troubles me… Too much podcasting barely enough for you? Want to explore more of the adventures (or in my case misadventures) that were raised during this episode? GLAD YOU ASKED! This is a fancy way of saying I'm about to bombard you with a bunch of links. It's all in the phrasing... Find out more about World Population Balance here. (https://www.worldpopulationbalance.org/). If you haven't heard it yet, their The Overpopulation Podcast (https://www.worldpopulationbalance.org/podcasts) is a class act. WPB launched an online panel discussion: “Pronatalism and Overpopulation | Challenging The Social Pressures to Procreate” on the 07th of July for world population day, which Nandita discussed with me. On the day it was a bit late for Australian clocks, but the highlights can now be seen on WPB YouTube channel here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31KyVagVAoM&t=54s). My interview with Tom Elliot on Melbourne’s 3AW Drive talk back radio is immortalised for all here. (https://www.3aw.com.au/harry-and-meghan-win-award-for-only-having-two-children/?fbclid=IwAR16Rz0FbOtpfFGPT-_4BlKx3pYAeNFSfK_F8s-NVemTYET-YnZ3KxRBnWI) It doesn't include all the callers afterward who called me a moron, which is always such a shame. If you are interested in finding out more about Population Matters’ ‘Change Champions’ award, you can find it here. (https://populationmatters.org/world-population-day-2021-change-champions?fbclid=IwAR3cFK-Lm_tPo6LW07FZWniCLv-TfNLPDar_uY3x5S17EQq_H8-6E_ke4QI) Interested in what Sustainable Population Australia had to say about World Population Day and why they believe the world cannot support another 2 billion people by 2050? This and more on their media release here. (https://population.org.au/media-releases/wpd2021/) SPA's very own Dr. Jane O'Sullivan is very popular. Firstly she was interviewed on the award winning ‘This Sustainable Life (https://joshuaspodek.com/guests/jane-osullivan)’ podcast hosted by Joshua Spodeck. Jane debunks the ‘ageing population crisis’ myths with Joshua as they explore SPA’s discussion paper ‘Silver Tsunami or Silver Lining’ (https://population.org.au/discussion-papers/ageing/) in which Jane was lead author. She was also a presneter at the World Population Day presentation and panel discussion –_ "What is a sustainable population? Why, when and what should we do about it?"_ This event was organised with Scientists Warning Europe, and a video of Jane's talk and the SWE media release can be found on the SPA website here. (https://population.org.au/swe_wpd_2021/) Find out more about Futuro Vegan Pop here (https://futuroveganpop.bandcamp.com/) You may be interested in listening to PGAP's last world population day special episode with SPA's John Coulter here. (https://pgap.fireside.fm/wpd2021) Last year we interviewed WPB's then ED Dave Gardner for our 2020 world population day special (https://pgap.fireside.fm/wpdpartb). Special Guest: Nandita Bajaj.
This episode of PGAP falls on World Population Day and is also PGAP’s first year anniversary! Instead of celebrating with balloons and confetti – because they’re bad for the environment – we mark the occasion instead by interviewing two very special guests. Dr. John Coulter, former leader of The Democrats and long term member of Sustainable Population Australia, looks back on an ad he posted on The Australia in 1971 calling for limits to growth – exactly 50 years ago. Host Michael Bayliss also talks with filmmaker Dubhaltagh O Hearcain of Nature’s Way Films, to discuss a brand new documentary on overpopulation ‘The Way To Live.’ Both interviewees call for a movement ‘beyond population’ towards a bigger picture of equity and living within the physical limits of the natural world. A gargantuan episode for gargantuan times. Meet John Coulter. Truly an elder for the post-growth movement who spent a good chunk of his past nine decades on earth as an activist for conservation, the environment and limits to growth. As a keen scientist, diver and environmental activist, he formed ZPG (Zero Population Growth) in the 1970s. John took his politics to parliament, where he was elected as a federal senator for The Democrats in the 80s and was briefly the leader of the party in the 90s. John has since been involved with Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) has tirelessly undertaken many roles within the national executive committee to this day.
I caught up with John at his home in the Adelaide hills. It is an amazing heritage property with acres of preserved native bushland. Unfortunately, a bushfire came through the property a couple of month before we recorded the episode, leaving much of the land scarred. It was a sobering experience to walk through the property and a stark reminder that change is happening as society’s growth experiment hits the decade of consequence. John also showed me an advertisement he had printed in the Australian in 1971 which was titled: “To those who shape Australia’s destiny.” It goes on to say: “We believe that western technological society has ignored two basic facts: (1) The resources of planet earth are finite; (2) the capacity of the environment to renew resources that are used up and to repair the damage causes by the exploitation of those resources is limited and decreasing.”
Signed by hundreds of esteemed scientists, John goes to share what has changed since the ad was published 50 years ago and what has stayed 'business as usual' due to the vested interests of big business, mainstream politicians and mainstream media. Meet Dubhaltagh O Hearcain of ‘Nature’s Way.’ From the USA, he has launched a new documentary on overpopulation, ‘The Way To Live.’ This documentary joins a (ha ha) growing parthenon of inspiring documentaries over the last few years which dare to focus on the limits to growth. ‘The Way To Live’ goes deeper to look to the cause roots of modern human psychology that result in us living beyond the planet’s physical means. With interviews with Dave Gardner, Karen Shragg and David Paxton from World Population Balance - as well as the inspiring FIGU community in Switzerland - Dubhaltagh shares the inner workings towards making this thought provoking film. I would like to take this opportunity to give my hats off to Sustainable Population Australia, who make this podcast possible and who have courage to support a project which goes beyond population to explore the wider world of post-growth. These have included discussions with interviewees who may not see eye to eye with SPA on the issue of overpopulation. After an entire year of their support, it was high time to focus an episode toward the amazing minds and talent that emanate from this amazing organisation.
Population has recently come into the spotlights in the Australian media with the release of the federal government’s Intergenerational Report 2021. The IGR bemoaned that the closure of the borders since COVID are going to lead to an Ageing demographic nightmare. SPA wrote a media release in opposition to the claims by the IGR and the good news is that the media responded, with offers for interviews, references in opinion columns and published letters to the editor. SPA is also looking forward to supporting a conference on Sustainable Agriculture later in September. We’re crossing both hands behind our collective back to ward off another round of lockdown and PGAP will provide updates in the leadup to this impressive conference. Speaking of down under, it is also NAIDOC week (https://www.indigenous.gov.au/news-and-media/event/naidoc-week-2021)and PGAP would like to pay respect to elders past, present an emerging on lands that were never ceded. PGAP recognises that First Nation contribution to a new post-growth world is critical, and we are proud to include two perspectives from two amazing Indigenous women here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/martuwarra) and here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/tasperspect1). What was that you say? 1 hour and 10 minutes of PGAP is just barely enough and you want to read up on more of the stuff raised in this episode? Well, glad you asked. What’s the UN saying about World Population Day 2021 anyway? Found out more here (https://www.un.org/en/observances/world-population-day) This is a fascinating biography (https://biography.senate.gov.au/coulter-john-richard/) on John Coulter’s political legacy. You can find out everything you need to know about the documentary ‘The Way to Live’ and ‘Nature’s Way’ website here. (https://natureswayfilms.com/) The Intergenerational Report 2021 can be found here. (https://treasury.gov.au/publication/2021-intergenerational-report) More importantly, SPA’s media release can be found here, (https://population.org.au/media-releases/igr2021/) and a summary of the community response to the media release here. (https://population.org.au/spa_response_igr2021/) Have I helped to make SPA sound like a good thing to you? It’s true! Like all good movements, they can only benefit from your support to a good cause. Find out more about supporting SPA here. (https://population.org.au/support/) Suggestions or feedback for PGAP as we enter our second year? Contact us here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact) Want to be our 11th 5 star reviewer (or our first 1 star reviewer)? This and more on Apple Podcast here (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099) Special Guests: Dubhaltagh O Hearcain and John Coulter.
In this episode of PGAP, host Michael Bayliss talks to Dr. Ted Trainer from The Simpler Way. And what is the simpler way? Is it a descent into sacrifice, frugality and deprivation? Or is it a systemic change away from a wasteful, globalised growth based economic system towards localised self-sufficiency, self-governance, lives of leisure and reconnection with the natural world? Ted reassures us to much relief that it is definitely the latter!
The previous three ‘Tasmanian Perspectives’ episodes of PGAP included interviews with amazing people doing amazing local projects in amazing practical ways within their local communities. While this was all very encouraging, some of the interviewees also expressed some grave concerns for the future for the planet and our well-being. From my perspective, it was great to follow these interviews up with one of my heroes, Dr. Ted Trainer, who provides a broad picture theoretical framework to the many exciting transition projects already happening at the grass roots.He also shares a sense of cautious optimism to the seismic shift in collective consciousness since he began advocating for limits to growth in the 70s.
After the interview, I reflect a little on my own personal journey over the last 10 years in intentional communities, permaculture projects, urban gardening project and system change organisations. I reflect on the many positives and ‘wins’ for the communities, as well as the challenges as we try to relearn how to live and work together in community in balance with the rigours and demands of the current, modern society. I also keep everyone up to date with one of my favourite love/hate obsessions, that being the utter ridiculousness of the housing market. Normally I’d apologise for using a public soapbox as a therapeutic catharsis tool, but given my many conversations with people on this issue, I somehow don’t think I’m just speaking for myself here! Did you enjoy the interview with Ted Trainer and want to find out more? Glad you asked! A link to The Simpler Way can be found here (http://simplerway.org/) and here (http://thesimplerway.info/) A link to The Simplicity Institute can be found here (https://simplicityinstitute.org/). Ted has a profile page here (http://simplicityinstitute.org/ted-trainer) To find out more about Ted himself, he has a Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Trainer) I really love his book Transition to a Sustainable and Just World (https://books.google.com.au/books/about/Transition_to_a_Sustainable_and_Just_Wor.html?id=I_JBYgEACAAJ&redir_esc=y&hl=en) The transition town movement was discussed in the interview. Find out more at the Transition Network (https://transitionnetwork.org/) Paul Ehrlich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_R._Ehrlich) is an inspiration to Ted Trainer and to Sustainable Population Australia who support this Podcast (Thanks SPA!). Find out more about Erlich’s pioneering work here. There was an article in the Scientific American bunking growth based economics. Essential reading here (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-delusion-of-infinite-economic-growth1/#) In the intro I mentioned the shortage of timber. Read more about that here (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-21/australia-victoria-housing-building-boom-timber-supplies-cost/100229612?fbclid=IwAR0C8aNcnceZHiyF3adQ_zt8Ftsp8Mi4qNjveaYHQx3Vcv_b-CnQWEroq8Y) *Like PGAP? Thoughts, feedback? * Write to us on our contact page here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact) Why not jump right down the rabbit hole and subscribe here? (https://pgap.fireside.fm/subscribe) If you’re feeling up to a review, please rate and review PGAP on Apple Podcast here (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099) Share this podcast wildly with your friends, family, colleagues and networks. PGAP would like to thank Sustainable Population Australia (https://population.org.au/) for supporting this podcast, and for allowing a platform to explore the broader post-growth landscape. Special Guest: Ted Trainer.
For PGAP’s third and final episode on Tasmanian Perspectives, host Michael Bayliss returns back to the Northwest to with Caroline Smith and Kirk Hall. Caroline and Kirk share their reasons for relocating from the mainland and why a future of ditching rampant consumption and returning to a life of voluntary simplicity, local communities, permaculture and degrowth are critical – not only for Tasmania – but anywhere and everywhere! Caroline Smith (http://terracircle.org.au/team/associate-team/caroline-smith/) is an educator, permaculturist and co-editor of “Permaculture Pioneers: stories from the new frontier (https://store.holmgren.com.au/product/permaculture-pioneers/)” with Kerry Dawborn. She now resides in Penguin and can often be seen engaged with the local community at Penguin’s Reseed Centre (https://www.reseed.net.au/) or Wynyard’s Live Well Tasmania c (https://lwt.org.au/)entre. Caroline very warmly accepted me into her community and her home for my brief stay in Tasmania and I really felt the kinship and hospitality of a kindred, likeminded spirit! I was delighted that she agreed to share her journey in making the leap across the Bass Strait as well as many of her world views and perspectives.
Kirk Hall is committed environmentalist and Degrowth activist who is the moderator of the Facebook page ‘Degrowth It’s Urgent (https://www.facebook.com/Degrowth-its-urgent-156038284954858)’ and ‘Degrowth – Join the Revolution (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1295234503849294)’ group among several other groups. He is also launching a ‘Tiny House Orchard (https://www.facebook.com/Tiny-House-Orchard-THO-2059902044284744)’ near Devonport and is writing a movie script on Degrowth. No rest for the wicked! Having known Kirk for years on social media, it was so great to meet with one of my social media colleagues in person! Between the two interviews we welcome back the permaculture themed band ‘Formidable Vegetable’ (http://www.formidablevegetable.com/)for their track ‘Small and Slow’ from the album ‘Permaculture: A Rhymer’s Manual. (https://music.formidablevegetable.com.au/album/permaculture-a-rhymers-manual-album)’ This is a perfect soundtrack to the interviews on today’s episode. Given that Friday the 05th of June is World Environment Day, (https://www.worldenvironmentday.global/get-involved/ecosystem-restoration-playbook?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=ecosystem_restoration_playbook&utm_term=eu&utm_content=ecosystem_restoration&utm_term=world%20environment%20day&utm_campaign=UNEP+-+APAC&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=1970971754&hsa_cam=13191586928&hsa_grp=121863608119&hsa_ad=523249617770&hsa_src=g&hsa_tgt=kwd-298004627900&hsa_kw=world%20environment%20day&hsa_mt=p&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2NyFBhDoARIsAMtHtZ4gvAF3PPEO2fYNdKz-OWD82AwP7oypyFWJbrljnxMi24EfnLWYDxQaAqM1EALw_wcB) it is so essential that guests such as Caroline and Kirk can continue to do what they do best – lead by example for local, lower impact communities full of community and food and without all the materialism, carbon and needless growth on a finite planet.
This wraps it up for the ‘Tasmanian Perspectives’ series. The community response to the series so far has been spectacular. PGAP enjoyed double the average number of listens over the course of May and the downloads have been steadily increasing all year. Did you know that ListenNotes now rates PGAP as in the TOP 10% of podcast series worldwide! This is just incredible. Long may this continue! (Until we’ve achieved the Degrowth dream so this podcast is no longer needed, of course!)
If you are interested in finding out more about Caroline's fantastic work and legacy, there are several links to her work in her Guest profile bio. Krik Hall also runs (at least) three other Facebook groups, Degrowth - Population (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1083413115500084), Degrowth - Housing (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1206464819802804) and Degrowth - Agriculture (https://www.facebook.com/groups/802926133600501). If you are interested in finding out more about the Tiny House Orchard project, there is a Facebook group here (https://www.facebook.com/Tiny-House-Orchard-THO-2059902044284744) Rough time stamp: Intro - 00:11 - 03:04 Caroline - 03:13 - 39:15 Music - 39:16 - 43:02 Kirk - 43:03 - 72:30 Outro - 72: 42 - end Special Guests: Caroline Smith and Kirk Hall.
"Degrowth is happening whether we like it or not" - Michel Stasse In the 'Tasmanian Perspectives’ series, PGAP host Michael Bayliss travels around the Apple Isle to interview Post-Growth mainlanders who have resettled in Tasmania and to discuss their reasons why. In this episode, I travel to the Huon Valley to meet with Michel Stasse, long-time Degrowth advocate, founder of the 'Damn The Matrix' blog and DIO superhero who self-built an impressive self-sufficient, off-grid eco home in the Huon Valley.
Mike kindly took some time aside for giving me a tour of his home where the on-site interview took place and discussed with me his reasons for moving from Queensland to Tasmania. We then discuss his life journey towards understanding limits to growth, standing for politics in Queensland, to his current advocacy for Degrowth and his reasons why electric cars and the green new deal won’t save us. I interviewed Mike in February on a hot day for Tasmania - mid 30s - and the day in which Australia endured the Facebook kerfuffle, including the removal of content from Australian activist groups and organisations. As such, there was a whiff of apocalypse already in the air, and during the interview Mike certainly doesn't mince words as he takes us somewhere down the deep end. So a 'health warning’ for anyone expecting a utopian outlook for this episode.
Also a slight 'sound warning’ - the episode was recording on site in a dynamic living environment so there is the occasional background sound during the interview. The intro and outro are recorded in my current house-sit in Adelaide, which is right near a main road and right near an operational quarry. So there is the occasional background traffic rumble. Some may call it unfortunate recording conditions - I prefer to call it 'character.' Anyone listening who would prefer pristine recording conditions is always more than welcome to buy me a house somewhere nice ANYTIME. Did this episode scratch the surface leaving you wanting more? Want to find out more about Mike Stasse or Professor Ian Lowe, who is mentioned in my discussions with Mike and who I include an interview excerpt at the start of the episode? Well I'm glad you asked! The blog 'Damn The Matrix’ can be found here (https://damnthematrix.wordpress.com/) Michel discusses peak oil (and other fun things!) on YouTube here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=KuetSASTxXU) I interviewed Professor Ian Lowe as part of Sustainable Population Australia's 'meet our patrons' video series that can be found on the YouTube channel here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3JW6-7O5EU&list=PLqZhQi8eQurRR5xL6xP9qGgyStq4xkVNt&index=4). Excerpts from that interview were played at the start of this episode. More information on Ian Lowe can be found on the SPA website here (https://population.org.au/about/people/prof-ian-lowe/). Also....if you liked the music track of choice Epi-Primate, I am relived that the band Heytesburg still have a presence on BandCamp here (https://heytesburg.bandcamp.com/), even though they are on indefinite hiatus. I can't believe this track is almost a decade old now. Special Guest: Michael Stasse.
The ‘Tasmanian Perspectives’ series of PGAP examines the lives, projects and perspectives of Post-Growth game changers who have left the mainland to start a new life in Tasmania. What made them decide to jump the Bass Strait? How is it all working out for them? Should you follow by example and make the move yourself? For the first episode, PGAP had the absolute pleasure of chatting with Tania Brookes from the Reseed Centre in Penguin. Tania Brookes is an indigenous Maori woman living on Palawa country in lutruwita, Tasmania, Australia. Currently Tania is the Administrator for the Community Exchange Network Tasmania (CENTs) and is co Administrator for the national Community Exchange System in Australia covering LETS, Community Currency and Time Banking groups around Australia. Tania is a permaculture practitioner/educator affiliated with the RESEED Centre and Live Well Tasmania in northwest Tasmania.
Tania discusses with me her reasons for moving to Tasmania from suburban Melbourne and the wonderful community she is now part of in the northwest. She shares her insightsof how the welcoming Tasmanian spirit in smaller, more intimate towns creates a culture of stronger community and giving. We discuss the joys and challenges of being involved in the broader permaculture community, and where permaculture ethics intersect with indigenous values of connection and care for country. We explore the role of spirituality to reconnect with the earth and each other, and finally, Tania shares her vision for change in regards to town planning and the growth based economy more broadly. I had an absolute blast talking to Tania – her care for people, community and place are really on show throughout our discussion. I would like to thank Tania for inviting me to her home and for letting me rearrange her living room to fit all my ridiculous over the top recording equipment! When I arrived she played for me a beautiful piece of local music, ‘My Mother the Mountain’ from Claire Anne Taylor. I was taken so much by the beauty of the song and Claire’s unique expressive voice. With Claire’s permission, I play this track at the end of the interview, as I believe it perfectly encapsulates the connection to family, community and place that were core values discussed in this interview.
This interview was made possible by support from Holistic Activism (https://holisticactivism.net/) and Town Planning Rebellion (https://holisticactivism.net/town-planning-rebellion-tpr/). Also a shout out to SPA (https://population.org.au/) for making PGAP possible. _PGAP wishes to acknowledge and pay respect to the Tasmanian Aboriginal people as the traditional and original owners, and continuing custodians of this land on which this episode was recorded and acknowledge Elders – past, present and emerging. _ Did you enjoy this episode and would like to explore more? The Reseed Centre (https://www.reseed.net.au/)in Penguin is an incredible community hub. Click here (https://www.reseed.net.au/) to find out more I also had the privilege to visit Live Well Tasmania (https://lwt.org.au/)in Wynyard, also doing incredible things. Tania Brookes is the administrator for Community Exchange Network Tasmania (http://cent.net.au/) (CENT) – find out more about their great work here (http://cent.net.au/). Claire Anne Taylor’s ‘My Mother, The Mountain’ has nearly 21 000 views on YouTube! Help give her OVER 21 000 views by clicking here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT7TAFVQDOA). You can also buy her music at her website here (https://www.claireannetaylor.com/store). We name-checked Town Planning Rebellion and Holistic Activism in this episode, who helped make this interview possible. Check them out (https://holisticactivism.net/). Liked this episode of PGAP? You might like…. My interview with Prof. Anne Poelina (https://pgap.fireside.fm/martuwarra), Nyikina Warrwa Traditional Owner, gives insight into a First Nation perspective on connection and care for country which I felt resonated with many of Tania’s own insights. Artist as Family (https://pgap.fireside.fm/artistasfamily) explores a family who moved to rural Victoria to live a life a voluntary simplicity and foster a strong local community gift economy connection. Finally, if you’re here because of the permaculture, you can’t go past my interview with David Holmgren! (https://pgap.fireside.fm/holmgren) Want to connect more with PGAP? You can contact us here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact) Subscribe to us here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/subscribe) I'm pretty sure that a link the episode on Apple Podcast can be found here (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099) Until next time! Special Guest: Tania Brookes.
How does a society know when enough is enough and it is time to stop growing, developing, consuming? How does a society know when it has ‘arrived’ and doesn’t need to keep striving for more? How does a society know when it hasn’t yet 'arrived' and where further material growth is still, on balance, a good idea? What are the ceiling limits to look out for? Well, who better to come to my rescue on this philosophical quagmire of a question than Dr. Katherine Trebeck, co-Author of "The Economics of Arrival: Ideas for a Grown-Up Economy."
In addition to being a star class writer, Katherine is Senior Strategic Advisor for the Wellbeing Economy Alliance (https://wellbeingeconomy.org/) – a global collaboration she co-founded in 2018, the same year she co-founded WEAll Scotland. Before then, she had a prodigious history with Oxfam. She is also one of those people who have given a talk for TedX and amassed over 65 000 views (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt9NKulHTDE). Impressed yet? However, as I live a very sheltered and insular life, I first came across Katherine Trebeck when I stumbled upon the Melbourne book launch of 'Economics of Arrival' (https://policy.bristoluniversitypress.co.uk/the-economics-of-arrival) (which she co-wrote with the equally impressive Jeremy Williams (https://bristoluniversitypress.co.uk/jeremy-williams)) almost by accident. I was meeting up for drinks with fellow post-growth activists who talked me into coming along to the book launch. I was immediately blown away by Katherine's speech at the event and bought the book on the spot.
I don't know HOW Katherine and Jeremy did it, but they achieved the almost impossible: they wrote a full-length book about economics and made it an incredibly interesting and absorbing read. I normally read ‘topical’ books only when necessary for my work, but I remember in October 2019 flipping through the pages eagerly on the tram every day on the way to the week-long Extinction Rebellion actions. The book provided a fantastic big-picture perspective on how a better world could look like. This proved to be a great motivator to begin a day's worth of protesting! Katherine's humanity, curiosity and sense for social justice shines through every page in 'Economics Of Arrival' just as it does when I spoke with her, a year and a half later on PGAP. The choice of muzak today is 'Ticonderoga' by Melbourne art-rock duo 'Privateer'. This can all be found on their branch new EP "Winter's Dream." (https://privateermusic.bandcamp.com/album/winters-dream).
So sit back, enjoy the discussion and if, after the interview, you feel you still haven't arrived and are hankering for more of Katherine's great work: Dr. Katherine Trebeck's website can be found here (https://katherinetrebeck.com/). The 'Economics of Arrival’ can be bought here (https://policy.bristoluniversitypress.co.uk/the-economics-of-arrival). Why the Future Economy has to be a Wellbeing Economy | Katherine Trebeck | TEDxMünche - this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt9NKulHTDE) has merely received 65,114 YouTube views. Make sure you're number 65, 115! Katherine is co-founder of the Wellbeing Economy Alliance (https://wellbeingeconomy.org/). Anyone who loves post-growth will adore WEAll so check them out now!
IF YOU LIKED THIS EPISODE OF PGAP YOU MAY ALSO LIKE: Post Growth Institute with Robert Wanalo (https://pgap.fireside.fm/pgo) - Robert is a member of WEAll (just like Katherine!) and a member of Post-Growth Institute (just like Katherine's co-author Jeremy Williams!) In the wrap-up to the interview, I made some observations on contrasting opinions to fellow author Karen Shragg (https://pgap.fireside.fm/movingupstream), who I interviewed just one episode ago. Worth checking out to draw out your own comparisons! If you are interested in a global south perspective on family planning and population sustainability, my interview with Ugandan born Florence Blondel (https://pgap.fireside.fm/smallfamilies) is probably still my favourite of all the conversations on PGAP so far. Special Guest: Dr Katherine Trebeck.
Why does modern society persist in pursuing its endless growth experiment when it is so obvious that this is unsustainable? Why is modern neo-liberalism so resistant to change even when the writing is so clearly on the wall? PGAP talks to environmentalist, naturalist, educator, poet and author of new book “Change Our Stories, Change Our World” – Karen Shragg. Karen, who lives in the USA, discusses several of the modern myths and stories detailed in her new book from greed, inequality, religion, anthropocentrism, and the topic to which she focuses the majority of her activism and advocacy – overpopulation.
Karen Shragg member of the advisory board of the non-profit “World Population Balance (https://www.worldpopulationbalance.org/)”, and “Earth Overshoot”. I remember being first impressed by Karen’s public speaking when she spoke at the COP25 Madrid panel on Overpopulation and Climate Change (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPMy2Yw8teM&t=2s), along with Portugal’s João Abegão, who I have also interviewed on a season 1 episode of PGAP. (https://pgap.fireside.fm/wpdpartb) Karen’s capacity to speak to the facts in a colourful, personable and emotional way was on full display at the COP25 panel and also very reflective on the way she writes on environmental issues. That the YouTube video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPMy2Yw8teM&t=2s) has nearly 18 000 views is a testament. Karen is a stellar communicator for Children and Adults alike. This is evident in the children’s series of books that she co-wrote, ‘Nature’s Yucky’. It is also evident in her fantastic book ‘Move Upstream: A Call To Solve Overpopulation' (https://www.movingupstream.com/publications) and her poignant ‘Move Upstream’ (https://www.movingupstream.com/blog) blog. However, it is Karen’s latest publication ‘Change our Stories, Change Our World’ which if the focus of this episode of PGAP.
A short concise and very manageable book at around 80 pages, ‘Change our Stories, Change Our World (https://www.amazon.com/Change-Our-Stories-World/dp/098849387X)’ nevertheless manages to cover much stomping ground, challenging six sticky world views that most of us in society hold, which Karen believes hold the stories which we use to justify business as usual human expansion at the expense of the natural world. My aim was to structure the interview around asking Karen a question around each of the chapter topics. Which I sort of managed to do so despite my usual tangents and distractions. Karen makes this a very engaging and dynamic conversation and I hope you enjoy! The issue of population has again become topical in Australia, as the mainstream media has reported that the country's population has been shrinking since the COVID induced closure of our borders. This is not entirely true - we've had a quarterly decline, but a modest annual increase of population growth. This is, however, much lower than in previous years and has resulted in panic and calls to return to normal ASAP from many in the economic, big business and demographic communities. Well known demographer Dr Liz Allen, for example, was recently interviewed on the ABC to advocate for a return to previous levels of economic migration to avoid apparent economic and demographic disasters. This time, however, Sustainable Population Australia - who kindly support this podcast - were invited to speak on ABC Radio Sydney (https://www.abc.net.au/radio/sydney/programs/afternoons/population/13276994) to provide a counterview to these concerns. For anyone concerned about Australia’s population growth OR about alternatives to growth as usual, hopefully this is a promising sign for many more future on-air discussions.
More information regarding the interview can be found on the SPA website here (https://population.org.au/abc-radio-march2021/) along with a recent media release from SPA that can be found here (https://population.org.au/media-releases/slowdown28march/). But enough about us. Want to find out more about Karen Shragg? Click here (https://www.movingupstream.com/) for her website 'Moving Upstream'. There you can find her bio, blog, bibliography, and anything else starting with the letter B! She had an opinion piece recently published in the Boston Herald: 'Immigration growth is an environmental issue' (https://www.bostonherald.com/2021/03/25/shragg-immigration-growth-is-an-environmental-issue/) If you haven't had enough of Karen's dulcet tones on podcast form, her interview with Rewilding Earth (https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/episode-54-karen-shragg-on-having-upstream-conversations/id1434744385?i=1000485374817) is excellent. I've already linked it, but I just think the whole Cop25 Madrid pane (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPMy2Yw8teM&t=2s)l where Karen spoke is just the bee's knees. Finally, did you forget to buy her new book ‘Change our Stories, Change Our World’? Shame on you! Fix this right now by following this link to Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/Change-Our-Stories-World/dp/098849387X) (never thought I'd be plugging Amazon but we live in strange times!) Special Guest: Karen Shragg.
*One of the downsides of becoming intimate with Post-Growth is that one becomes acutely aware of the human impact on our planetary systems. One is continuity at loggerheads with growth based economies that are pulling in the opposite direction of where they should be going and what they should be doing - and the people just don’t seem to stop! * Now I don’t know about you, but this can often fill me with depression, anxiety, existential depression and morose apathy. And this is just on one of my rare good, well-adjusted days. So how do we keep ourselves hopeful, in good spirits and avoid turning into one of those bitter, cynical sterotypes that our younger selves were adamant we'd never become? Why do all those life coaches and spiritual types all seem to look so happy, smiling away with those big white teeth which look like they’ve never had to down a surly cup of black, treacly coffee in ages? PGAP talks to Amrit Sandhu - life coach, conversationalist, fellow podcast host -of Inspired Evolution - and long-term smiler, laugher and optimist - to give us some sagely advice.
I remember the first few times I met Amrit – we kept bumping into each other at yoga workshops and meditation retreats. You couldn’t really miss Amrit as his joyful laughter filled the room a good five minutes before he event entered it. A few months later Amrit invited me to his Inspired Evolution (https://www.facebook.com/InspiredEvolution) Facebook group. My social media feed was full of doom, gloom, human error and looming environmental apocalypse. So it took me as surprise when these Inspired Evolution posts kept flicking up – they were full of gasp good news, positive stories, people doing lovely things to each other and their environment. Such a panacea for my social-media mental health and a daily injection of optimism my soul so needed. I then started listening to the ‘Inspired Evolution’ podcast (https://inspiredevolution.com/podcast/) and YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8SQeFEB7c7sPHRikkJFvjg)videos. I had no idea there were that many entrepreneurs and game-changers out there, doing great things that often intersect with Post-Growth theory, and making a livelihood out of it to boot! Amrit opened my eyes and ears (and probably my heart and soul) and we came friends ever since. He is a brilliant podcast host too! So what happens when two podcast hosts get together? Lots of laughter for a start, closely followed by plenty of D&Ms as Amrit shares how he got out of the toxic construction industry to now do what he does best. Can Amrit turn me into an optimist over the course of an interview or will I drag him down into my black abyss where he so rightfully belongs? The race is on! And the most important philosophical question for all of us – when two podcast hosts talk, who becomes interviewer and who becomes interviewee? You’ll just have to listen and find out for yourself, won’t you.
Talking about interviewer/interviewee dynamics, I was actually interviewed by Amrit for the Inspired Evolution podcast, which has just been launched. It was difficult for me to get in the habit of ANSWERING questions rather than ASKING them, but if you want to know my warped thoughts on Post-Growth, behaviour change, hell, even spirituality, then the YouTube video can be found here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi6ux06_WVw&t=1336s). At the end of the interview I play a song titled 'Antarctica' (https://shockoctopus.bandcamp.com/track/antarctica) that was written by.....me and recorded with a fellow musician David Blair 13 years ago. It has since seen new life in the latest EP by my band Shock Octopus. It is a song about feeling stuck in the present but working toward a better future. I'm not sure if this is the best self-help advice but I felt it resonated with the conversation that Amrit and I shared in the interview. As always, this podcast is made possible by Sustainable Population Australia, (https://population.org.au/) and hats off to them for giving space to a podcast that explored the post-growth realm more broadly, from all different angles. Next episode P-GAP will be going back headfirst into population land by talking to American author and sustainable population advocate Karen Shragg (https://www.movingupstream.com/). In the meantime! If Amrit made you feel more optimistic about the world and your min/spirit, and you would like more of this, you be Inspired by more of his Evolution on the Inspired Evolution Website (https://inspiredevolution.com/), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8SQeFEB7c7sPHRikkJFvjg), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/InspiredEvolution), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/inspiredevo/?hl=en), Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/company/inspired-evo/about/). That should keep you going! However, if that just isn't enough links for you, want to know my favourite Inspried Evolution interviewes? I am a massive fan of Charles Eisenstein so naturally I want you to click on this link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOQMLREna1I). As I interviewed Darpan on PGAP you may be interested in his Inspired Evolution interview here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QXyxb2xUCw&t=1287s). Lastly, I really love the interview with Koya Webb (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmlvyPvqwPU&t=159s). I really vibe with her politics and the ide of Fierce Compassion! Did you enjoy this episode? Hated it? Would have loved it if it weren’t for my annoying vocal ticks and choice of music? Make your thoughts public on Apple Podcast (or your favoured podcast listening medium). Your feedback and metadata help PGAP to GROW - the only thing we do want to see growing! Special Guest: Amrit Sandhu.
Martuwarra, the Fitzroy River, is located in the Kimberley region of northern Western Australia – renowned and cherished for being one of the last of the world’s isolated, vast and by global standards – relatively untouched by Western development. Of course, like all places that haven’t yet been concreted over by a dominant culture that demands to grow infinitely on a finite planet, Martuwarra, the Fitzroy River, is under threat to be next on the chopping block. But not without a fight! PGAP talks to Professor Anne Poelina, Chair of the Martuwarra Fitzroy River Council and a Nyikina Warrwa Traditional Owner, is a custodian of her family’s connection to Mardoowarra, at the lower end of the Fitzroy River. Through observation and practice of Indigenous ‘First Law’ - the first Australian law embodied the rules for living in coexistence with nature – Anne believes it is possible to transition from a culture of invasive development and exploitation to an entrepreneurial culture of care and custodianship.
Thirteen years ago, our then Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said ‘Sorry’ on behalf of the nation to Australia’s Indigenous people. Since then, you could be forgiven for thinking whether any of this apology has sunk in with the various mining, road construction and other ‘business as usual’ industries that continue to plunder sacred lands that were never ceded. In Western Australia, Rio-Tinto blasted the Juukan Gorge caves – 46 000 years of human cultural significance gone in an instant with the help of some explosives. As I was recording this episode, I learnt that Mining giant BHP have recklessly harmed a Banjima sacred site in the Pilbara region in the same state. And don’t think this is a peculiarly Western Australia phenomena - I’ve just today passed Ararat in Victoria, near the sacred Djap Warrung birthing trees are under relentless threat by the state government to be removed in order to widen a road. This absurdity is straight out of the plot-line of a Douglas Adams novel. In the eyes of the dominant neo-liberal culture, nothing is sacred from mining, fracking, road-widening, grazing, water theft – general exploitation. How could it be when Growth on a finite planet is the modus operandi and any other way of being or relating to the land is seen as anti-development, anti-progress, radical and dangerous? Hence – the ongoing and relentless displacement of First Nations people, culture and land, whether we are talking Brazil, West Papua, West China or, indeed, Western Australia. I personally feel that the conversations around Post-Growth, Degrowth and even national population and migration policy are lacking First Nations’ perspectives, both in public discourse and in the literature. However, if you scratch under the surface, I believe there are voices to be heard on these issues. A couple of years ago, I ran a seminar at the Sustainable Living Festival for Sustainable Population Australia (https://population.org.au) with Richie Allen, director of ‘Traditional Owners Aboriginal Corporation’, titled “Population: Indigenous and Environmental Perspectives”. Richie’s mother Violet ran for the Sustainable Australia Party in the ACT state elections, and it was through SAP connections that Prof. Anne Poelina and I met. It is also interesting that Lowitja O'Donoghue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowitja_O%27Donoghue) was once a trustee with SPA. And so, Prof. Poelina and I happen to be united in our position to population and migration policy. I am sure that there is no united ‘First Nation’ perspective on population policy and I could bet that opinions on this topic are as diverse as the 360 language groups that comprised the original custodians of this continent pre-colonization. Yet if we are to ‘de-grow’ and ‘decolonise’, then taking time to listen to Indigenous wisdom, including love, respect and connection to land and water, is absolutely crucial. During the interview, Anne shares with us some insight into Indigenous ‘First Law’ as a way out of the anthropocentric, growthist quagmire we find ourselves in; towards a future of sustainability, stewardship and reconnection with each other, the land, water and life.
Following my interview with Anne, I play an excerpt of the musical tour-de-force which is "Yimardoowarra" from Nyikina Warrwa artist "Kalaji". Yimardoowarra means belonging to Martuwarra, the Fitzroy River - such a perfect soundtrack for this episode! You can listen to the entirety of the track on "Kalaji"s artist page here. (https://soundcloud.com/kalaji-mcs) Want to find out more about Prof. Anne Poelina and the Martuwarra-Fitzroy River council? Anne has kindly provided some fantastic links below: Martuwarra Fitzroy River Website: www.martuwarrafitzroy.org Dr Anne Poelina “Wake Up The Snake! Collective wisdom brings nature back to balance | TEDxPerth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZmflOQarnM RiverOfLife, M., McDuffie, M., & Poelina, A., (2020). Martuwarra Country: A historical perspective (1838-present). Martuwarra Fitzroy River Council; Nulungu Research Institute, The University of Notre Dame Australia. https://www.doi.org/10.32613/nrp/2020.5 RiverOfLife, M., Poelina, A., Alexandra, J., & Samnakay, N. (2020). A Conservation and Management Plan for the National Heritage listed Fitzroy River Catchment Estate (No. 1). Martuwarra Fitzroy River Council, Nulungu Research Institute, The University of Notre Dame Australia. https://www.doi.org/10.32613/nrp/2020.4 Poelina A and McDuffie M (2015) Three Sisters, Women of High Degree. Madjulla Inc., Broome. Available at https://vimeo.com/147866161 - Password: Kimberley. Poelina A and McDuffie M (2017) Mardoowarra's Right to Life, Madjulla Inc., Broome, WA, Australia available at https://vimeo.com/205996720 access password: Kimberley. Post-Growth Australia Podcast is made possible with the support from Sustainable Population Australia (https://population.org.au/) Special Guest: Dr Anne Poelina.
Three inspiring women. Three powerful arguments why empowered women who choose smaller or childfree families are good for individuals, good for communities and arguably better for the planet. This is the case regardless of where in the world you happen to live - global north OR global south. Population is a contentious conversation starter - in large part because it is a very personal issue for all of us. Yet it is a conversation that we must have if we are to envision a future with less, rather than more, human impact. This incredibly special episode goes hand in hand with Sustainable Population Australia's 'Stop at 2' campaign as they launch Maxine Trump's documentary 'To Kid or Not to Kid' in Theatres across Australia in late February. Meet Florence Blondel - Ugandan born journalist and all round game changer. I stumbled across her powerful article for Earth Overshoot day (https://www.overshootday.org/florence-blondel-population/) and couldn't help but to be incredibly moved. It had me thinking that there is so much debate in the global north around family planning based foreign aid for women and communities in the global south and yet the perspectives from women who live in the global south themselves are often lost in the noise. Florence is no less moving and inspiring in interview than she is in writing - cutting through the myths and misperceptions with stunning clarity, wisdom and through her direct experiences and anecdotes. You can find out more about Florence's great work here (https://florenceblondel.com/).
Meet Maxine Trump - director of 'To Kid or Not to Kid', virtually the first English language documentary to explore the decision whether or not to have children. Maxine points the lens at herself - literally and figuratively - as she juggles over the course of the feature length film the pros and cons of motherhood and opting, ultimately to be childfree. It has received rave reviews from the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, and having seen her film myself I can vouch for the unanimous praise! I chat with Maxine about her reflections following the making of the film as we anticipate the Australian premiere of 'To Kid or Not to Kid' in Australian cinemas in partnership with Sustainable Population Australia's 'Stop at 2' campaign. A trailer for the film can be seen here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlyW3PiXh7M&t=1s) and it will be released soon on Amazon Prime for those who are unable to make it to the Melbourne or Perth screenings.
Meet Tanya Williams - Brisbane based author of 'Childfree Happily Ever After'. Tanya shares with me her personal journey in her decision to be proudly childfree and her life mission to spread the word and normalise the choice to be childfree across the globe. She has released a new 'Childfree Magazine' this month - again, virtually a first of its kind. You can find out more about Tanya, her book and the new magazine here (https://childfreehappilyeverafter.com.au/). As mentioned, Sustainable Population Australia will be hosting private screenings of 'To Kid or Not to Kid' in Melbourne on the 26th of February and in Perth on the 27th of February in cooperation with Transition Town Guilford. According to Sandra Kanck, national president of SPA: "The aim of the campaign is to normalise the choice of having small or childfree families. As an environmental NGO, we advocate for smaller families as one solution towards reducing pressures on the Earth and support those who go down that path." SPA has produced a couple of short interview films here (https://youtu.be/w_F_9amXCLw) and here (https://youtu.be/r5epY8YNvRQ) examining the issue with a range of people, including those who have decided to be childfree and those who have decided to have families. The screening of 'To Kid or Not to Kid', later this month, will be an excellent finale to our two year long project. A media release on the 'Stop at 2' campaign can be found here (https://population.org.au/media-releases/australianscreeningtk/). Interested in seeing Maxine's movie for yourself? Glad you asked! More information on the Melbourne screening can be found here (https://population.org.au/events/to-kid-or-not-to-kid-melbourne-screening/). More information on the Perth screening can be found here (https://population.org.au/events/to-kid-or-not-to-kid-perth-screening/). We are crossing our fingers for a third time lucky - we tried to screen the film twice last year and COVID lockdowns got the better of us! There has been some recently excitement in both Perth and Melbounre with hotel quarrantine scares so we are really hoping the dust will settle through to the end of February at least! Given that many studies have demonstrated that having one less child is a more effective way to address personal emissions than a range of reductions in consumption or lifestyle choices, this is a necessary discussion to have for environmnetalists and the broader post-growth movement alike. Time stamp: 00:00 - 07:45: Intro 07:46 - 46:35: Florence Blondel 46:36 - 01:04:42: Maxine Trump 01:04:43 - 01:20:53: Tanya Williams 01:20:54 - End: Outro Special Guests: Florence Blondel, Maxine Trump, and Tanya Williams.
A new year – a new season of Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP). What better way to open than with Meg Ulman and Patrick Jones from Artist as Family – two people who are living Degrowth day by day in the most visceral, practical, and inspiring way I have ever seen. Their dedication to living within their ethics, politics and the bio-capacity of their home in Daylesford is nothing short of phenomenal.
The interview begins with a tour of their quarter acre block that they share with their son Woody and their dog Zero. The usual modern day trappings of carports, flushable toilets, televisions and gas heating have been replaced by food forests, closed loop water and compost systems, rocket stoves and fermenting tables. Sounds like they have their priorities right! The interview was recorded late last year as lockdown was on the wane. Therefore the tiny houses and on site cottages where volunteers, WWOOFers and community builders often stay were absent of the usual hive of activity. As the interview moved on, we explored the concepts of neo-peasantry, community sufficiency, and how, as artists as family, they have turned art-form in an everyday expression of being by reimagining a life that is less dependent on the industrialised systems inherent in the infinite growth based system. I learnt so much during this interview and I was also beautifully challenged around my choices of veganism and being child-free as a response to the climate and ecological emergencies. They also shared their perspective on how modern growth based capitalism is closely interconnected with centuries of gender inequality – I particularly resonated with Patrick’s comparison of ‘toxic patriarchy’ with a monoculture of runaway blackberries. It is not the blackberries that are the problem but rather the lack of balance. We also compared travel notes. I have spent the last couple of months on post-lockdown freedom driving up and down the east coast in my LPG car, staying at airbnbs more often than I camped, and shopped at Woolies and Coles whenever I couldn’t find a local fruit and veg shop. So I was humbled to hear of Meg and Patrick’s cycle adventure to Cape York achieved on next to no money through free-camping and foraging. Just another example of their dedication to the planet. Now I am sure you are dying to find out more about Meg, Patrick, Woody, Zero and the powerhouse that is 'Artist as Family' - so here are a few linky links: Artist as Family blogpage (https://theartistasfamily.blogspot.com/) Artist as Family YouTube channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC90Jv6gBc7mf4dyfTyWj4tQ) (hundred of videos here with advice on just about anything and everything) My introduction to Patrick Jones when he delivered an online talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-XCajy1qYY) with Anitra Nelson (who I have previously interviewed) They made a VIDEO (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykQ4F-z0U1I&t=7s) for their song Water! It is a must see (plus you get to hear the whole song) During the intro I referred to an article where the human made material world now outweighs the planet's biomass - if you're feeling like another cheerful bedtime read, look no further than here (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/09/human-made-materials-now-outweigh-earths-entire-biomass-study?fbclid=IwAR26CaXiVwL9l1NTWbhTqdhzN_8XiJQbee2TscIcaz_iQFXFJ_A3y_m-hFg). P.S. we're running out of sand. (https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191108-why-the-world-is-running-out-of-sand) What better way to deal with these frightening indicators than to keep building more shit. What could possibly go wrong........ Special Guest: Artist as Family.
December the 09th marks ‘International Anti-Corruption Day (https://www.un.org/en/observances/anti-corruption-day)’. This day was designated nearly 20 years ago by the ‘United Nations Convention against Corruption (https://www.awarenessdays.com/awareness-days-calendar/international-anti-corruption-day-2020/)’ to raise awareness on corruption and its role in undermining democracy, stability and equity. Australia is no exception to this phenomena – one is hard pressed to find a major party politician who is NOT in bed with big business. If you want to be a state premier (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/oct/12/daryl-maguire-gladys-berejiklian-and-a-scandal-years-in-the-making-timeline) these days it is almost de riguer to have some scandal with some property developer or other (https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/daniel-andrews-discussed-projects-directly-with-developer-ibac-hears-20201111-p56dj2.html). Since we all degree that ‘political favours’ are not exactly prime example of good leadership and altruism, why does this behaviour persist - over and over again, ad nauseum? PGAP host Michael Bayliss explores this further with Game of Mates co-author Dr Cameron Murray.
As a former property developer, Cameron provides the perfect insight as to what goes on behind closed doors in the property development industry, and how political favours, gained over time, leads to a culture of favouritism – a ‘Game of Mates’ if you please. Speaking of which, if you haven’t read the book of the same nam (https://gameofmates.com/)e, do so NOW. Cameron writes just like he speaks, which is to say engaging and fascinating – edutainment at its best. It also makes for great exposure therapy. I always knew the property industry was…let’s say a little skewed, but reading this book made me stimmy with rage on more than one occasion.
My discussion with Cameron was a great lesson for me in human psychology. I have often been frustrated why the community doesn’t rile against the property development industry more often – it is so rigged it is literally costing us billions of dollars a year and pricing out anyone out of the housing market who has the audacity to live on a five figure salary. But unlike the mining sector, which is full of eccentric Machiavellian villains, the property sector is conspicuously lacking (apart from the odd exception like Harry Triguboff). Generally speaking, property developers start of as well-meaning people who get caught up in a game of favouritism, wining and dining and rigging the system. Just like all of us do to some extent, they are simply looking out for their network of colleagues and friends, with a hefty dose of cognitive dissonance. Unlike the rest of us, however, this is done on a scale that undermines democracy, equity, housing affordability and wise town planning decision. The natural environment also goes down the gurgler. Individually, I learnt that property developers are often nice people. Collectively however, the culture has created a monster.
Cameron also discusses his views on population policy, modern monetary theory, his unique perspectives on capitalism and neo-liberalism, and his commitment towards critical thinking and avoiding 'isms', even when this has sometimes lead to controversy and heated debates. I first met Cameron when filming his presentation "Economic Ageing Myths (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqyU0smmajU)" at the forum hosted by Sustainable Population Australia in 2019. Since then, Sustainable Population has released a discussion paper on the ageing myth (https://population.org.au/discussion-papers/ageing/): "Silver tsunami or silver lining? Why we should not fear an ageing population." I am happy to share that the discssion paper has done very well since it launched in late October and has enjoyed good coverage in the print media. This thirteenth episode is the final in the first season of Post Growth Australia Podcast – I am really proud of where PGAP has gone since I started it in July. In many ways it has exceeded most of my expectations and listener feedback has been overwhelmingly positive. Thank you all for supporting and for listening – after all, if a podcast is broadcast and there is no-one to listen, did the pod actually get cast? That is the existential question that I don’t have to answer just yet as you have all taken to PGAP so kindly. I would like to give my thanks to Sustainable Population Australia for supporting this project – it would not have been possible without them being so willing to support a new project in good faith. I am taking a couple of months away to hit the road – 8 months of lockdown was a great way to get many projects started but the computer screen has long passed its novelty. As such, this interview is a little ‘low frills’ - no intro, outro, no humouring my questionable taste in music. Just a pithy, largely unedited discussion with Cameron – which given Cameron is such a great speaker, I think I just got away with it. Don’t agree? Send me a review on Apple podcast. Agree? Send me a review on Apple podcast. Don’t care either way? Send a review expressing your completely neutrality on Apple podcast or the contact form on this page. Otherwise, I look forward to a second season of pithy conversations on all things post-growth in the new year (assuming no total global apocalypse in the meantime – one can never be too certain). "Corruption is criminal, immoral and the ultimate betrayal of public trust. It is even more damaging in times of crisis – as the world is experiencing now with the COVID-19 pandemic. The response to the virus is creating new opportunities to exploit weak oversight and inadequate transparency, diverting funds away from people in their hour of greatest need." UN Secretary-General, António Guterres, Statement on corruption (https://www.un.org/en/observances/anti-corruption-day) in the context of COVID-19 Special Guest: Dr Cameron Murray.
Are you keen on the idea of permaculture but find the idea of starting an acreage in the country a bit much? Do your cortisone levels go through the roof whenever you see productive farmland being torn down for more cookie cutter suburbia? Are you baulking at the thought of perfectly good houses on your street being pulled down for battleship grey pre-fab concrete apartments? Would you prefer that you could do more things for yourself and with others at home rather than having everything outsourced for you at a price from the not-so-free market? According to David Holmgren, co-founder of permaculture, ‘Retrosuburbia’ can make all of this and more, a possibility. But what IS Retrosuburbia (https://retrosuburbia.com/)? Well, I suppose I could paraphrase it badly for you, or we could hear it straight from the co-founder of permaculture himself! Given that David Holmgren (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Holmgren) is a household name, especially in the environment movement, I am very honoured that he agreed to be interviewed for this podcast!
David Holmgren co-founded the Permaculture (https://permacultureaustralia.org.au/) movement in the 1970's together with Bill Mollison. David has written many books on the subject and continues to write and speak on permaculture, and alternatives to the growth based society that we currently find ourselves living in. This includes solutions to the high-rise versus suburban sprawl dichotomy that is so dominant in current urban planning mentality. This approach is a central premise of the Retrosuburbia movement, a movement which has culminated in a large and colourful bestselling book (https://retrosuburbia.com/). This book appears ubiquitously in the book collection of many environmental enthusiasts and rightfully so as it makes for essential reading!
In addition to exploring Retrosuburbia, David discusses the current predicaments and shortcomings that are inherent in the current system, such as inefficiency, waste, and erosion of community, the pressure and displacement of renters – not to mention the environmental toll. David explores his vision of a post-growth world in which the Retrosuburbia and Permaculture movements play a fundamental role. Following David Holmgren’s interview I invite Mark Allen, the founder of Town Planning Rebellion (https://holisticactivism.net/town-planning-rebellion-tpr/) and Holistic Activism (https://holisticactivism.net/)to say a few words. Mark is a sustainable town planner and activist who is deeply committed to systemic change and how our towns and cities should adapt and evolve in a post-growth, post climate change world. Mark also encourages people to take a Holistic Activism approach to emotive topics such as population. His approach is to encourage nuanced discussion by looking for the common ground on those issues that underlie divisive topics such as, in the case of population, the need for systemic change, international mutual aid and the empowerment of women. If you are keen on exploring some of the ideas in this episode in greater depth, we recommend heading to Melliodora publishing (https://melliodora.com/publishing/). It is a small specialist publisher dedicated to producing a limited range of books and other media by David Holmgren, co-originator of permaculture, and other authors. Their titles 'aim to support individuals in their personal permaculture journeys'. The choice of song today is 'Grow A Garden' by 'Formidable Vegetable' (http://www.formidablevegetable.com/). Formely known as 'Formidable Vegetable Sound System' their permaculture and system changed themed songs have been an inspiration and the soundtrack to many of our lives! If you ever get a chance to see them live, they are utterly mindblowing, in the meantime, you can listen and buy their music on Bandcamp. (https://music.formidablevegetable.com.au/) Special Guests: David Holmgren and Mark Allen.
Another month, another bunch of elections. In Australia, we’ve just had the ACT elections, QLD elections, and Victoria council elections. I think that’s it. Oh yeah, there’s a small North American country having a federal election counting ballots as we speak. You may have heard about it. Post-Growth still exists on the fringe and for most of us on the fringe voting can be a frustrating exercise choosing between who will lead us through several more years of growth on a finite planet. It can be even more frustrating for independents and minor parties who advocate for something better than the status quo – a seeming endless uphill climb full of long hours, campaign trails, etc. This being the case, is it better to opt out or opt in? PGAP host Michael Bayliss explores this question further with the Honourable Kelvin Thomson. Kelvin is a former member of the Labor party and since 1981 has been elected for local council, State Government and, from 1996 served as Federal member for the inner-north Melbourne electorate of Wills for two decades. Kelvin balanced longevity with a very unique and individual outlook that often put him at odds with mainstream politics. Kelvin was – and still is – an active champion for environmental conversation, campaigned against overdevelopment including the influence of property developers on political decisions, and perhaps most famously for his staunch position on population policy (https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32ndy2). This sometimes earned him the reputation as a ‘maverick’. I prefer to see it as rare integrity. Since retiring from Federal parliament in 2016 Kelvin is now Chief of Staff for Victorian MP Clifford Hayes (https://www.cliffordhayes.com.au/) of Sustainable Australia Party (https://www.sustainableaustralia.org.au/) (SAP). Kelvin discusses with me his journey from Labor to SAP, the successes and challenges he faced during his time in and out of office and why there is a place for politics in promoting the post-growth cause. A qualifier: This podcast is made possible by Sustainable Population Australia (https://population.org.au/)(SPA) who are apolitical and therefore do not endorse any one political party. However, during this episode I highlighted several political parties and candidates who have policies that have some common ground with the post-growth movement. In addition to Sustainable Australia, you may be interested in finding out more about Animal Justice Party (https://animaljusticeparty.org/), Save The Planet Party (https://www.voteplanet.net/), New Liberals (https://www.thenewliberals.net.au/)(definitely not like old Liberals), Australian Democrats (https://www.democrats.org.au/), and Craig Walters (https://votedegrowth.info/). Know of any others? Let us know! Speaking of Sustainable Population Australia, they recently released a discussion paper debunking the myths of an ageing population. Population sustainability is not always renowned for its cheeriness, however the discussion paper – “Silver tsunami or silver lining? Why we should not fear an ageing population” (http://www.population.org.au/publications/discussion-papers/ageing) is not only a fantastic read but also quite upbeat. The discussion paper has enjoyed some positive media coverage the past week which is fantastic. You may also be interested in Kelvin's impassioned speech at SPA's 2019 AGM here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yB6gpXGXb4). And speaking on contacting PGAP, please don’t be shy! Our contact form is here (https://pgap.fireside.fm/contact). Want to feedback on any of the episodes or want to share your own post-growth ideas? I’d love to hear from you. Do you frequent Apple Podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/post-growth-australia-podcast/id1522194099)s or Stitcher (https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/postgrowth-australia-podcast)? Then please rate PGAP and leave a review. The more reviews, the more listeners – which means the more people stop wanting more. If you’ll excuse the Paradox…. The song of choice today is from Adelaide band ‘The Tangerines.’ To find out more about The Tangerines, visit their website here (https://www.thetangerinesmusic.com/). Special Guest: THE HONOURABLE KELVIN THOMSON .
The Federal budget was made public on October 2006 with the usual disappointment we have come to expect from the coalition government (well from both major parties really). So what SHOULD the budget have looked like as we enter into the pandemic flecked decade of consequence? Host Michael Bayliss talks to Leith van Onselen to find out what a sensible economic response during these trying times OUGHT to look like. Leith van Onselen writes relentlessly as The Unconventional Economist (https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/author/leith/) at the blog site MacroBusiness, (https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/) one of the more successful fringe media sites in Australia (and by 'fringe' we mean 'not owned by Murdoch and yet still surviving'). Speaking of mainstream media, Leith is so far the only guest (or host) ever to have appeared on The Bolt Report (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCifSIApK9c) and The Today Show (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqxf2vzf1mA). Now before we get too alarmed, I argue that this is not because Leith is a covert neoliberal but rather his communication style is such that his unconventional economics can appeal to a broad mainstream audience. During the interview we find out why Leith is, indeed, an 'unconventional' economist and conclude that, indeed, this is because he is at heart just like to rest of us. He wants to see an end to deregulated neoliberal growth that benefits the few at the expense of the many. Instead, he would like to see more leisure, community, well-being, lower consumption and more considered frugality. Leith would also like to see an end to Australia's high rate of population growth that have been boosted through higher levels of economic migration over the last two decades which has seen his home city of Melbourne climb from 3.5 to over 5 million in under 20 years. This is an ‘unconventional’ position that tends to be unpopular with both big business and the left, however we love to put population under the microscope on PGAP, so we explore this issue further with Leith. Leith informs us on the fiscal policy that the government should take in the difficult decade of recession that lies ahead (as it turned out in the October 06 budget, the government didn't really follow Leith's advice). I begin the episode by sharing my take on the budget and end the episode by giving my take on a recent article (https://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/greenie-good-guys-are-wrong-to-oppose-economic-growth-20201002-p561dn.html) that aims some criticism at Degrowth advocates (from an author to which I was not expecting this from). It comes down to the fact that there is a bit of an argument in economics land: IS it possible to have GDP growth without physical growth that requires resource extraction? Or in other words, is it possible to decouple economic growth from environmental destruction? What are your thoughts? Can we decouple our way out of our problems or is this just wishful thinking? Please let me know your thoughts by clicking the contact tab on this website and let me know if you would like your opinion broadcast on the next episode. For those who like links: Leith lead a discussion paper for Sustainable Population Australia titled: Population growth and Infrastructure in Australia: the catch-up illusion the link can be found here (http://www.population.org.au/publications/discussion-papers/infrastructure) The song of choice today was from my own band 'Shock Octopus’ entitled 'In A Box'. Thematically it brings an old Malvina Reynold song into the apartment/compartment world of the 21st Century. Musically it is Talking Heads meets rock/rap, but hopefully better than that sounds. Link here (https://shockoctopus.bandcamp.com/album/the-noviciate-in-a-box-single). an exerpt of the song ended up at the 'Theme' to the SPA crowdfunded series 'Tough Crowd (https://youtu.be/YFKCTBj7SAY)'. Special Guest: Leith van Onselen.
In the second part of the 'spirituality special' of PGAP, we interview Jim Villarreal of Gold Cap Integration Network (https://www.goldcapintegration.com/) to discuss that healing the world means healing the internal traumas that lie within us all. We also explore an exciting new movement called Holistic Activism which is seeking to bring together activism and mindful practices. () Jimmy and I reunite after many adventures spanning the globe from Amazonian Peru to the Victorian Gippsland to discuss how the state of the world is in part informed by our conditioning and traumas. Jimmy shares his personal story of leaving behind a successful sales career in corporate America to start a brave new journey in assisting people with emotional and spiritual healing. We discuss how a transition to a better, post-growth world must at some point come from a place of internal transformation. I also play a selection from a brand new guided mediation from Holistic Activism (https://holisticactivism.net/), designed for us activists in mind - but accessible to anyone and everyone. Holistic Activism is about 'reducing conflict among activists and creating campaigns that are long lasting while also reaching out and connecting with people who have different values to that of our own'. The aim is to do this in a manner that does not enable us to continue to repeat the mistakes of history. Holistic Activism is Australian based and currently maintains an online connection and presence during lockdown. The meditation is narrated by Holistic Activism founder Mark Allen and I share it with his permission and blessing. We play a six minute extract of the full 16.5 minute Guided Meditation but the entire meditation can be found on the HA Soundcloud channel here (https://soundcloud.com/holistic_activism). As the meditation is aimed at putting you into a calm and relaxed space, it might not be best to listen to this podcast while driving. Special Guest: Jim Villarreal.
Many times on PGAP we have discussed how critical it is to live in a way that is Ecocentric rather than Anthropocentric. To decolonise our economies and societies so they are living within the laws of nature rather than trying to dominate the natural world. So what needs to change and how to we facilitate this change? Do we rally against corporations, governments, capitalism and neoliberalism? Or do we need to stop changing the cruel churning world and work to shift our cruel churning minds caught in trauma, language, concepts and judgement? Can one even separate one without the other? If my observations are correct, these distinctions have been crumbling in recent years. The political left are starting to realise that infighting over diminishing points of different has led to bitterness, resentment and burnout. Meanwhile not a lot has changed – the corporations still call the shots at the relentless expense of the natural world. Activists are looking for other ways. ‘Holistic Activism’ (https://holisticactivism.net/), which advocates for collaboration, rather than conflict, is an example of one such movement. Meanwhile, those in the ‘spirituality movement’ have started to become more politically engaged. (‘Spirituality’ being a - ha ha - broad church but for ease of reference I refer to those who engage in Taoism, Non-Duality, Shamanism and Neo-shamanism, Zen and Buddhism etc.) The response to COVID, particularly from the Victorian state government, has led to a new degree of activism within the community. Some of the same pitfalls that have befallen environmental activists, such as division and clashing over social media, have begun to emerge. In this episode, I try to make a sense of recent events by talking to Darpan, a wise and incredibly experienced practitioner with decades of experience as a teacher, therapist, councillor, sound healer and facilitator of shamanic retreats. As an active person who has always struggled to sit still, I allow myself to be challenged on Darpan’s perspective that indeed, we CAN’T change the system without changing ourselves. Indeed, the universe is a vastly more complex place than our senses and minds can ever conceptualise - perhaps there is a astral world of spiritual events taking place whether our rationalistic brains like it or not. () For those coming in to here from a system change angle, some of Darpan’s perspectives may be challenging. For those coming here who are fans of Darpan, you may find MY questions to him and my perspectives at the end of the interview uncomfortable. This need not be a bad thing – let this be a test of different perspective coming together to find common ground. If anything, this is the one thing that may get us out of the mess we’re in. During the Podcast I refer to Alan Watts - the video almost broke me! and the documentaries Esteem (https://www.greenplanetfilms.org/product/esteem/), My Octopus Teacher (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s0LTDhqe5A), and Living in the Time of Dying (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvzmPyY08ck). In my own bias this is essential viewing. We are also graced by a stunning, beautiful meditative track from Melbourne artist Belinda Wickens (https://belindawickens.bandcamp.com/)entitled ‘She Comes’. Thank you so much for being part of this Podcast Belinda. Special Guest: Darpan.
Degrowth? What does it mean? Is it about austerity and deprivation? Or is it about community, collaboration and unshackling ourselves from the matrix of the growth economy into a world that is more equitable, liveable and sustainable? According to Anitra Nelson – definitely the latter! Anitra Nelson (https://anitranelson.info/) is an author, scholar and activist. She is passionate about the degrowth movement in addition to alternatives in restructuring the ways in which we live and relate to each other. Particularly, co-housing, shared living and localised economies and governance.
During this interview, we discuss two important books of wisdom that Anitra has delivered to the world. Anitra was just launching “Small Is Necessary: Shared Living on a Shared Planet” (https://anitranelson.info/small-is-necessary-shared-living-on-a-shared-planet/) when we first met in early 2018. At the time of this episode’s broadcast, Anitra has released “Exploring Degrowth: A Critical Guide” (https://anitranelson.info/exploring-degrowth/) – a book that she has co-written with Vincent Liegey and has published through Pluto Press. Both excellent books are covered in the interview.
In addition, Anitra provides a very detailed and eloquent description of what life might look like in a degrowth world where localised governance and shared community living is the norm and not the exception. Following the interview, I discuss some of my experiences and reflections on community shared living. I discuss the Retrosuburbia (https://retrosuburbia.com/)movement, linked here to find out more. There are so many positives to shared living and we need to see more of this if we are to pull the breaks on bad urban planning outcomes that are shaping our cities and towns for the worse. However, shared living comes with many challenges that perhaps not all of us are ready or willing to jump into just yet. Just as important (in my opinion) is to unite on a broader scale reform of the town planning system, so that housing can be built around the many different needs of the diverse people who live in our towns and cities. Not just for the growthist and profit driven mentality of property developers. As such, it is worth checking out movements that are challenging the ‘big picture’ such as Town Planning Rebellion (https://holisticactivism.net/town-planning-rebellion-tpr/). Another pithy episode with much (locally grown?) food for thought! Special Guest: Anitra Nelson.
For the 06th episode of Post Growth Australia Podcast, we thought it was prime time to connect with the Post Growth Institute (PGI) themselves. After all, no post-growth advocate worth their salt should go through life without connecting with this wonderful, tireless hub of connectors and game changers at some point. Being the incredible international networkers they are, PGAP had the opportunity to speak with their Partnerships Manager, Kenyan born and raised Robert Wanalo. Host Michael Bayliss takes us on a trip down memory lane – my nostalgic reminiscence probably induced by my cabin fever lockdown delirium – humour me. Firstly I recall the time I first discovered the Post Growth Institute (https://www.postgrowth.org/) through the Post Growth Alliance (https://www.postgrowthalliance.org/). It was during a time when I first came across ‘limits to growth’ and ‘financial collapse’ in a big way through the work of Richard Heinberg and Nicole Foss (links at the bottom). I joined the Melbourne based Doing It Ourselves on the basis of their actual hit video What The Economic Crisis Really Means – And What We Can Do About It (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euhkIesmW7E). Within weeks of joining DIO I was their international liaison coordinator and instantly mesmerised by the sheer number of dedicated groups and organizations in the international sphere who were making post-growth a (ha ha) GROWING reality and not just a theoretical dream. It was a pleasure to share their campaigns across DIO’s social media networks at a time when DIO was still active. I therefore thank PGI (or blame on a bad day – just kidding) for setting me on this particular activist branch. Another trip down memory lane was back in 2007 when I lived and worked in Kenya. I set off as a recently graduated student, with barely more than $1000 in my bank account and this being my first experience in any real interaction with the Global South. I went straight in the deep end, living and working in a small village on the less visited south-west corner of Kenya, where I laughed, cried, jumped in joy and went completely mad in a completely wild ride with some of the most gorgeous people and communities I have ever met in my life. Looking back, this was a rite of passage like none other. It so happens that Robert Wanalo was practically my neighbour during that time who lived in an adjacent village. How’s that for two formative experiences coming together full circle! It is an utter pleasure to connect with Robert. During the interview, he provides a unique perspective on post-growth in action through the lens of the Global South and more specifically, as it applies to Africa and Kenya. Within in the Post-Growth movement where so much of what we do is based around international collaboration, the interview with Robert highlights the importance that all perspective from around the world are critical. Indeed, as the Global North has been so instrumental in force-feeding inequitable, growth obsessed capitalism across the world over the last few centuries, so much of the wisdom for healing the world an ourselves is already there in the Global South – if we are all willing to listen.
Robert impressed with how greatly read and connected he is, I have made an attempt to link some of the groups, people and books he refers to throughout his interview. In fact, Robert is so well connected to people and place, that he was interviewed within a thriving hub with children, families, animals and the odd Matatu in the background. So, while I applied some noise filters to the interview, it may sound busy at times. The positive reframe is that this is what a thriving melting pot of community in action sounds like! Moving forward, keep a lookout for PGI’s ‘Free Money Day (https://www.postgrowth.org/free-money-day)’ on September 15th. Once again, PGI prove themselves to be the masters of ‘edutainment’, making a fun exercise out of the act of passing on money to complete strangers whilst reflecting on the ridiculousness of our current wealth hoarding system (based on supposed money that for the most part does not even really exist). Speaking of which, the nature of money should be the theme of a future episode of PGAP…. Stick around for next episode where author and activist Anitra Nelson (https://anitranelson.info/) where we discuss all things Degrowth and her new co-written book Exploring Degrowth: A Critical Guide (https://anitranelson.info/exploring-degrowth/) Support our local artists! The track of choice for this episode is the supberly titled 'This Modern World Is Built On Trash' by Melbourne based talent Sam Trowse. You can find out more about Sam Trowse (AKA Johnny) on Triple J Unearthed (https://www.triplejunearthed.com/artist/sam-michael-trowse) Remember folks this episode is made possible by Sustainable Population Australia. They need your love and attention too! Check them out here (https://population.org.au/) (And just in case there weren't enough links already....drum roll....) Robert Wanalo is part of the international Wellbeing Economy Alliance (WEA). To find out more, click here (https://wellbeingeconomy.org/) To find out more about the PGI offers and needs market (http://offersandneeds.com/) For another perspective on population sustainability in Kenya, check out Episode 2 of PGAP (https://pgap.fireside.fm/wpd), world population day special To find out more about Richard Heinberg (https://richardheinberg.com/) and his book The End of Growth (https://richardheinberg.com/bookshelf/the-end-of-growth-book) To find out more about Nicole Foss and The Automatic Earth (https://www.theautomaticearth.com/tag/nicole-foss/) Special Guest: Robert Wanalo.
Well the good news is that Earth Overshoot Day arrived later this year on August the 22nd than it did in 2019 (July the 29th). The bad news is that this is due to COVID, not because of concerted effort on part of the dominant economic paradigm. Earth Overshoot Day is always a sobering, soul-searching time for host Michael Bayliss, so what better way to go about it than to soul-search with one of the most thoughtful and articulate environmentalist and authors of our time, Derrick Jensen? You may remember Derrick Jensen (https://derrickjensen.org/) from such best-selling books as Endgame (https://derrickjensen.org/endgame/) and The Culture of Make Believe (https://derrickjensen.org/culture-of-make-believe/). Or you may be aware of him as the co-founder of Deep Green Resistance (https://deepgreenresistance.org/en/) radical environmental group. Derrick is hailed as the philosopher poet of the ecological movement. He pulls no punches when it comes to being a champion of the natural world, pointing the finger of scrutiny at the modern human capitalist experiment and reminding us that yes, limits to growth are DEFINITELY real. In other words, he fits in just perfectly with Post-Growth Australia Podcast (PGAP). I can't say we keep things shallow during the interview. Derrick goes down the rabbit hole with me as he dissects capitalism, the psychology that creates an expansionist, destructive mind-set, the trauma that is inflicted on both human and human animals as a result of a civilization built around competition and domination and, not least, the role that (non patriarchal/monotheist) spirituality plays in reconnecting us back into the awe and one-ness with nature. Although the interview is slightly longer than some other episodes, I feel I barely brushed the surface with Derrick and can't wait to have him back for 'round two pithy conversation’ soon! Before the interview host Michael Bayliss provides a ruefully amusing anecdote of trying to explain Earth Overshoot Day (https://www.footprintnetwork.org/our-work/earth-overshoot-day/) to the mainstream news media last year. I honestly thought I was buttering up our predicament for the interviewers in the best way that I could, but they still felt I was being too pessimistic when I tried to explain that the work to be done involved more than just recycling. I had almost forgotten the cognitive blind spot that is mainstream news!
To cap it off, we play the brand new track ‘Ice’ from 'Counting Backwards (https://countingbackwards.bandcamp.com/track/ice)' . It is a track about modern life malaise in the suburbs. Take this lyric below which links in nicely to some of the conversation had with Derrick Jensen: "People don’t know how to be happy in the sprawl. It's a monochrome world she says. Flanked by urban malls." Stick around for episode six when I interview Robert Wanalo from Post Growth Institute. In the meantime, you may be interested in the Earth Overshoot Day media release (http://www.population.org.au/earth-overshoot-day-retreats-three-weeks-wrong-reason) freshly released by Sustainable Population Australia (SPA). Special Guest: Derrick Jensen.
Since colonization (at least!) the human race has been blinded by the delusion that we are separate, above and beyond all other species to whom we share the planet. As we enter the decade of consequence, PGAP interviews Dr Michelle Maloney, who has dedicated her life to unpacking these myths and provides some insight into what an earth-centred society might look like. The 2020s is the decade of consequence from centuries of anthropocentrism. The ‘Anthropocene’ has seen the numbers of human and ‘livestock’ animals balloon at the expense of every single other ‘wild’ species on the planet. Nature is biting back. In Australia, after reeling from the devastating impact of the bushfires, Melbourne has been plunged into six weeks (at least) of stage 4 lockdown. We are also looking towards a future of contraction and recession. Our politicians and business ‘leaders’ are only too keen to return to business as usual - as soon as possible. Dr Michelle Maloney has other ideas… Michelle is the co-founder of Australian Earth Laws Alliance (AELA (https://www.earthlaws.org.au/)) and director of the New Economy Network Australia (NENA (https://www.neweconomy.org.au/)). For the past decade, Michelle has dedicated her life to bringing people and community together to revision a better world in which humans live, work and play in a way that regenerates the environment instead of taking away from it. From anthropocentricism to ecocentrism, if you please. Michelle shares with host Michael Bayliss the excellent and essential work being done by the volunteer run AELA and NENA, bringing the realms of law and economics back into nature where it belongs. She describes what kind of world we might live in if we can change out mind sets by putting our beautiful local ecosystems back into forefront. Michael also plays ‘Life on a Pier’ from his own band ‘Shock Octopus (https://shockoctopus.bandcamp.com/)’. The track is an epic song about climate grief, an orchestrated eulogy for these difficult but fascinating times. The song is currently enjoying a month of national wide promotion, so we thought its inclusion here is timely! We hope you enjoy the 04th episode of PGAP. Special Guest: Dr Michelle Maloney.
World Population Day has passed but its legacy continues! In part B of our world population day special, PGAP travels (virtually) to the USA to speak with Dave Gardner from World Population Balance and to Portugal to talk with population sustainability academic João Abegão. We are also serenaded by the song 'Let's Hang Out' by child-free comedian Jude Perl. Dave Gardner speaks with Michael about World Population Balance (https://www.worldpopulationbalance.org/)'s excellent campaigns during 2020 that encourage and empower people to choose smaller families. Also discussed was the launch of the World OVERpopulation Day website (http://www.worldpopulationday.org/), GrowthBusters (https://www.growthbusters.org/) and Dave's great work on The Overpopulation Podcast (https://www.worldpopulationbalance.org/podcasts). João Abegão discusses the background behind the making of the Overpopulation Atlas (https://www.overpopulationatlas.com/) - this is perhaps one of the most spectacular and dedicated post-grad projects ever! As one of the youngest advocates for population sustainability on, João has also addressed the UN as part of a panel discussion on population at the COP25 in Madrid. 2019. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPMy2Yw8teM), which is very impressive. In between interviews, we play a live performance of 'Let's Hang Out' from comedian, musician and thought provoker Jude Perl (https://judeperl.bandcamp.com/). Jude performed live as part of SPA's Tough Crowd series with Australian comedian and national treasure Rod Quantock (see here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R89PDvdy65Q)). The song's clever message is very relevant to world population day - it will all make sense by the chorus! Special Guests: Dave Gardner and João Abegão.
*Think we can go post-growth without a slow-down in population? * Regardless of what our personal views are in regards to population, hopefully most of us can agree that empowerment of women, choice and agency in regards to family size and worldwide access to affordable family planning and contraception services is a moral imperative. These are essential human rights no matter where we happen to live on the planet. Once these are in place, it so happens that people tend to have smaller family sizes, which is a better outcome for families, for communities and for the planet. World Population Day is "celebrated" on 11 July, and this year’s goal is to raise awareness of women’s and girls’ sexual and reproductive health needs and of their vulnerabilities during the pandemic. In the first episode of our 2 part world population special, PGAP interviews - • Terry Spahr, director of 8 Billion Angels (https://8billionangels.org/) – a feature length documentary that explores the environmental consequences of collective human impact in the USA and India – and why family planning is one essential solution to the many problems that we face on a global scale. Terry is also director of Earth Overshoot (https://www.earthovershoot.org/). • Robin Witt and Georgia Burford from CHASE Africa (https://www.chaseafrica.org.uk/). CHASE works on the grass-roots level in Kenya by partnering with local community to provide quality family planning and health education. At PGAP we are in awe of the tireless dedication, passion and love of the environment that is so evident in all three of our incredible guests – for a cause that is so often contentious and misunderstood by the broader community. It is time we work together to unpack these misconceptions! In the episode we also play the audio excerpt from our new video (https://youtu.be/eUq-Ek24ulY) ‘Meet The Patrons of Sustainable Population Australia.’ This is a talking head compilation of the video interviews of SPA’s patrons. Included in the excerpt is National President Sandra Kanck who is joined by Dr Katharine Betts, Dr Paul Collins, Professor Ian Lowe and Professor Bob Carr. We also play the track ‘Blind Freddy’ from South Australian band ‘RockPool’. RockPool are band of dedicated environmentalists and ‘Blind Freddy’ explores the issues of the endless growth of human impact and human population. The perfect theme the podcast series and this episode! Stick around for World Population Day (part b) when we interview Dave Gardner from World Population Balance and Joao Abegao, academic based in Portugal. Special Guests: Georgia Burford, Robin Witt, and Terry Spahr.
What is the steady state economy? Why is it better than the growth economy we already have? For the first episode of Post-Growth Australia Podcast, host Michael Bayliss is joined by Jonathan Miller (Steady Sstate ACT, a chapter of the Center for the Advancement of the Steady State Economy [CASSE]) and Martin Tye (Australian Regional Communities Chapter, CASSE) who explain why the steady state economy is every bit as interesting and dynamic as what we have now, just MUCH better for the future of the planet. Michael also plays the audio excerpt from the popular short animation ‘The Endless Growth Paradigm’ and a hot new single from a hot new environmental music project – ‘The End Of History’ as performed by ‘Counting Backwards’ To find out more about Steady State ACT, visit its website here (https://steadystateact.org/) To find out more about The Centre for the Advancement of the Steady State Economy (CASSE), visit here (https://steadystate.org/). You can also sign the petition that Martin discusses in his interview here (https://steadystate.org/act/sign-the-position/) . In this episode, we played the audio excerpt from the short animation ‘The Endless Growth Paradigm (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9445ShUJqM&t=4s).‘ By clicking on the hyperlink you can see the video in full, even if you don’t agree with all of the message I think we can all agree that this is some stunning art work. We played ‘The End Of History (https://countingbackwards.bandcamp.com/)’ which was the first ever single release performed by ‘Counting Backwards.’ The group is a Melbourne based project who focus on environmental and existential themes. The song was released to raise funds for Extinction Rebellion. It would be lovely if you could visit and support this project further on their Bandcamp page – we will need local music in the new post-growth society so in the meantime our local musicians need all the support they can get! Special Guests: Jonathan Miller and Martin Tye.