Where Do We Go From Here: Recent Episodes
Devi Abraham & Jessica Van Der Wyngaard
Do you wonder what comes after purity culture? Do conservatives think you're too progressive while progressives think you're too conservative? Are you frustrated by the simplistic way the church spoke about sexuality and humanity? We untangle sex, self, and community for a new generation of Christians through conversations that give you the tools you need to develop your own ideas to help you, your community, and your church live a wholehearted life exactly where you are today. Sound theological framing and psychological insights shape our conversations with thought leaders in their fields. And you will leave equipped and empowered to live your life. Leave purity culture behind, save what matters. Together, let's rebuild life and faith with Jesus at the center so you can figure out where will you go from here?
For more information, check out www.wheredowegopod.com.
In this Thoughts and Prayers episode, Jessica and EDJ wade into the murky waters of what it means to engage with faith, critique evangelicalism, and still remain spiritually alive. It’s part deconstruction, part spiritual therapy — with a side of sass.
They ask: Can you love Jesus but be done with church? What happens when purity culture gives way to embodied faith? And how do you hold grief and hope in the same breath when it comes to faith traditions that shaped you — and hurt you?
This conversation isn’t tied up in a bow — and that’s the point. If you’re craving raw honesty and nuanced faith, this one’s for you.
In this episode:
- Church trauma and the long shadow of spiritual abuse
- “Healing” and the commodification of it in Christian spaces
- Why it’s okay to say “I don’t know”
- The spiritual cost of being a “good girl”
- Rebuilding a relationship with the divine on your own terms
Join the conversation and let us know your biggest takeaway.
Is Christianity still good news for women? It’s a big question — and in this episode, Jessica is joined by Emily and Kristen for a thoughtful, vulnerable conversation that doesn’t shy away from the tension.
Together, they explore:
- 🧠 How growing up in the church shaped their views on womanhood, sex, and submission
- ✝️ The parts of Christianity they’ve kept — and what they’ve had to leave behind
- 💔 The difference between Jesus and the institutions that claim to represent him
- 🧎♀️ Whether the “good news” can still be good when it’s caused so much harm
- 🪢 And what hope, faith, and spirituality can look like after the unraveling
This isn’t a theological debate — it’s an honest look at what it means to be a woman who still wants to engage faith after everything. No easy answers. No hard feelings. Just an open conversation for wherever you’re at.
What happens when saying yes to God means leaving behind everything you built — and trusting Him in the silence?
In this deeply moving episode, Jessica talks with evangelist, author, and podcast host Brenda Palmer about her upcoming book The Journey of Yes. But this conversation goes far beyond the book.
Brenda opens up about growing up in purity culture, losing her church community after choosing to speak out, walking away from a thriving career, and learning to hear God’s voice in the wilderness of financial uncertainty and emotional pain.
With wisdom, joy, and radical honesty, she reminds us:
- That hearing from God is a process, not a lightning bolt
- That obedience isn’t about transaction, but transformation
- And that our trauma doesn’t disqualify us — it’s often where God meets us
Whether you’ve walked away from church, are learning to trust God again, or are somewhere in between, this conversation is a breath of Spirit-filled air.
Where to find Brenda: https://www.iambrendapalmer.com/
Pre-orders: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/762936/the-journey-of-yes-by-brenda-palmer/
Where to find us: https://www.patreon.com/wheredowegopod
This episode of No Hard Feelings is one for the books: we’re tackling two wildly different but surprisingly rich topics — emotional cheating in the age of smartphones, and the global significance of the first American pope, Leo XIV.
First, Jessica, Kristen, and Emily unpack what emotional cheating actually is (spoiler: it’s not as cut and dry as you think). From secret texts and blurred lines to purity culture hangovers and relational ethics, we sit in the tension and explore the gray areas of emotional intimacy.
Then we shift gears to talk about the newly appointed Pope Leo XIV — what it means for the global church, the far right’s response, and how Catholicism’s center of gravity may be shifting away from Europe.
We don’t offer all the answers. But we ask the questions with honesty, curiosity, and no hard feelings.
🎧 Support the show and get bonus content at patreon.com/wheredowegopod
What if your pain isn’t just something you have to live with?
In this episode, Jessica talks with osteopath Rebecca Lovett about pelvic floors, vaginismus, body shame, and the impact of purity culture on women’s health. They explore how trauma can live in the body, why many women suffer in silence, and what it means to reconnect with your body — not just spiritually, but physically.
This conversation is honest, warm, and deeply practical — and it's here to remind you: your body is not a problem to be solved.
📍 Rebecca Lovett is a Melbourne-based osteopath with a focus on pelvic health and whole-body care. Learn more: rebeccalovettosteopath.com.au
In this episode of 'Where Do We Go From Here?', host Jessica van der wyngaard introduces her new co-host EDJ, who shares her journey from Australia to America and her experiences with deconstruction in faith. The conversation explores the themes of grace, purity culture, and the importance of open discussions about faith and relationships. EDJ discusses her background in Bible college and how it shaped her beliefs, as well as her plans for future interviews and topics related to deconstruction and spirituality.
- EDJ shares her journey of moving from Australia to America.
- The concept of 'Thoughts and Prayers' is redefined in a communal context.
- Deconstruction is a long and personal journey.
- Bible college challenged EDJ's previous beliefs about faith.
- Grace is a central theme in understanding one's relationship with God.
- Purity culture has lasting impacts on relationships and self-perception.
- Open conversations about sex and faith are necessary.
- Deconstruction can lead to healthier perspectives on faith.
- Future episodes will include interviews with various authors and influencers.
Welcome to Where Do We Go From Here's new monthly episode series: No Hard Feelings - where we take on the questions that don’t have easy answers. But the answers don’t need to be hard and fast. Here we’ll explore different perspectives, share our own thoughts and invite you to form your own - because here, there’s no hard feelings.
Host: Jessica
Co-hosts: Emily & Kristen
In the inaugeral episode of 'No Hard Feelings', Jessica, Emily, and Kristen delve into the complexities of ghosting and its implications in dating and relationships. They explore whether ghosting is ever acceptable, the nuances of communication in various relationship stages, and the importance of safety and vulnerability. The conversation encourages thoughtful dialogue and diverse perspectives on these often contentious topics. In this episode, the hosts discuss the emotional impact of ghosting in relationships, emphasizing the lack of communication and emotional intelligence often exhibited by men. They transition into the topic of contraception, debating whose responsibility it is and the importance of open conversations about sexual health. The discussion highlights the need for mutual respect and understanding in relationships, particularly regarding contraceptive choices. The episode concludes with a reflection on the challenges of adulting and the necessity of ongoing dialogue in navigating complex issues.
Takeaways:
- Ghosting is defined as ending a relationship without explanation.
- The hosts discuss the disrespectful nature of ghosting in established relationships.
- Safety concerns can justify ghosting in certain situations.
- Communication is essential, but not always safe or easy.
- Different perspectives on ghosting can lead to more understanding.
- Caspering, or friendly ghosting, is a more respectful approach.
- The impact of ghosting on emotional resilience is significant.
- Generational differences in ghosting behaviors are evident.
- The hosts emphasize the importance of vulnerability in dating.
- Navigating dating requires balancing honesty and personal safety. Ghosting leaves individuals with an ambiguous loss.
- Most men lack emotional intelligence regarding ghosting.
- Women often articulate their feelings better than men.
- Contraception is a shared responsibility between partners.
- Open conversations about sex are crucial for safety.
- Condoms should be prioritized to protect both partners.
- Purity culture impacts decisions around contraception.
- Conversations can prevent misunderstandings in relationships.
- Adulting involves navigating difficult conversations.
- It's important to keep asking questions about relationships.
Where Do We Go From Here? is a podcast hosted and produced by Jessica Vanderwyngaard.
Support the work of the podcast at patreon.com/wheredowegopod
After nearly five years of co-creating Where Do We Go From Here?, Devi Abraham is stepping away from the podcast and Patreon community — and today, Jess sits down with her for one final conversation.
In this emotional and reflective episode, Devi shares what led to her decision, how her life has shifted since 2019, and what she’s dreaming about in this next chapter. From parenting and mental health to rest, community, and the surprising role of cake in connecting with teenagers, this episode is full of the warmth, honesty, and depth Devi has brought to the mic every single time.
Whether you've been here since the beginning or are just tuning in, this is a moment to mark. Thank you, Devi. 💛
👉 Stick around to hear what’s next for Where Do We Go From Here?, including our new monthly serial No Hard Feelings and Thoughts & Prayers.
🔗 Show Notes: * 📬 Subscribe to Devi’s writing: deviabraham.substack.com * 📸 Follow Devi on Instagram: @devi_writes * 💛 Learn more about Prison Network * 🧵 Join our community on Patreon: patreon.com/wheredowegopod * 🎧 Listen to the episode with Matthias: [“What Are the Rules When There Are No Rules?”]
Where Do We Go From Here is a podcast hosted, edited and produced by Jessica Vanderwyngaard and Devi Abraham.
Sign up for a 2-month long book club discussing Sarah C. Williams new book: "When Courage Calls: Josephine Butler and the Radical Pursuit of Justice for Women."
Sign up at patreon.com/wheredowegopod for $10 a month, or as a $7 upgrade from our $3 membership level. (Prices in USD.)
Book Club Benefits:
- Private Facebook group for online discussions throughout the month
- Zoom discussion on the book (month 1)
- Zoom conversation with the author (month 2)
You can find out more by going to wheredowegopod.com
You can join the conversation on Instagram @wheredowegopod
In the 19th century, Josephine Butler defied every expectation of what a woman should be. A privileged, refined Victorian lady, she became a fearless advocate for women on the margins—challenging sexual double standards, fighting the legal system that punished women while protecting men, and leading a movement that changed British law and history. Today, historian Sarah C. Williams, author of When Courage Calls: Josephine Butler and the Radical Pursuit of Justice for Women, joins us to unpack Butler’s extraordinary life and the paradoxes that made her so compelling. What does her story have to teach us about faith, justice, activism, and the courage to challenge oppressive systems? And how does her legacy speak to us today, in a world where women’s bodies are once again being politicized and controlled? Whether you’re deconstructing purity culture, rethinking your faith, or just looking for a story of radical love in action—this episode is for you. Links & Resources: When Courage Calls by Sarah C. Williams (Australia, USA) Subscribe & share this episode with someone who needs to hear it! Book Club
For anyone who thought kissing someone you didn’t marry would ruin your life and wreck your faith, Dr. Camden Morgante is here to help.
Show Notes:
Partner with us to hear more about how to develop your sexual values Recovering from Purity Culture by Dr. Camden Morgante Instagram (talk to us!) Twitter
Dr. Camden Morgante is a licensed psychologist with nearly 15 years of experience as a therapist and college professor. She owns a private therapy practice focusing on women’s issues, relationships, sexuality, trauma, and spirituality, and is a frequent speaker. Dr. Camden’s mission is to help Christians heal their faith from toxic beliefs. She is the author of Recovering from Purity Culture. Dr. Camden lives in Knoxville, Tennessee, with her husband and their daughter and son.
Jess and Devi are back with a lot of thoughts about why Gen Z men are now more religious than Gen Z women. The episode also features the thoughts of our fabulous partners.
Like this style of episode? Join us in Patreon for a unique News & Views episode every single month.
Show Notes In a First Among Christians, Young Men Are More Religious Than Women (NY Times)
In this episode Devi shares what's next for the show.
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Beth Hope's portfolio
Trigger warning: This episode contains stories of racial violence and sexualized racial violence.
In this episode we deep dive Purity Culture's origin story, and its connection with America's racial history.
Full show notes here. Talk to us on Instagram and Twitter
Want to talk about this episode? Join our partners in The Big Debrief on Tuesday March 26 at 9pm EST and Wednesday March 27 at noon in Melbourne.
Sara Moslener is a lecturer in the Department of Philosophy, Anthropology, and Religion at Central Michigan University where she teaches courses on the history of religious and racial discrimination in the United States. She has been studying evangelical purity culture for over 15 years and has numerous publications including the book Virgin Nation: Sexual Purity and American Adolescence (Oxford University Press: 2015). She hosts the new series Pure White: Sexual Purity and White Supremacy with Axis Mundi Media. Connect with her on Twitter and Substack.
In this episode we talk about love after divorce as Haverlee shares her story of a marriage breakdown, living alone, dating, and finding new love. It's part of our three part series. You can find the first two episodes here:
142: What If Marriage Doesn't Make You Happy Or Holy? 143: 7 Signs That Your Marriage Can be Saved
Partner with us for $3/month to hear an uncut conversation before anyone else does. Professor Sara Moslener takes us back to school to uncover the connection between purity culture and white supremacy in the US. She also talks about the recent Alabama Supreme Court ruling on embryos and how that connects to purity culture rhetoric of the past.
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Full show notes and transcript here
There are characteristics and qualities of relationships that lead to better outcomes, and Dr. Camden Morgante joins us to talk about seven of them. If you're concerned about your marriage or have qestions about the person you're dating or engaged to, this episode is for you. Listen to our previous episode to hear more about divorce in the United States.
Full show notes here (including a full transcript of Dr. Camden and Devi's interview). Follow us on Instagram and Twitter to get a recap of the 7 signs.
Partners get to talk about this episode and more on February 27 (9pm EST)/ 28 (1pm AEDT). Join us for $3/month to get last week's romcom recap of Crazy, Stupid, Love.
Dr. Camden Morgante is a licensed clinical psychologist with over 13 years of experience as a therapist, college professor, and supervisor. She owns a private therapy practice focusing on women’s issues, relationships, sexuality, trauma, and spirituality. Connect with her on Instagram
In this episode we deep dive divorce with journalist Lyz Lenz. We talk about:
- why it's so hard to tell the truth about difficult marriages
- how the labor of women sustains western marriage
- political decisions that could make marriage easier for everyone
Follow us on Instagram and Twitter to keep talking. Full show notes here
Partner with us for $3/month (USD) to hear Jess & Devi talk about recent revelations about beloved author Elisabeth Elliot's abusive third marriage.
Lyz Lenz is an author and journalist living in Iowa. This American Ex-Wife is her third book. She also writes the newsletter Men Yell at Me about personhood and politics in America.
In this episode, Hillary McBride guides us toward how to see our body as a resource, and she gives us practical, free tools to help us reconnect with our bodies.
Full show notes here
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Hillary L. McBride (PhD, University of British Columbia) is a registered psychologist, an award-winning researcher, and the host of the Other People’s Problems podcast. She has a private practice in Victoria, British Columbia, and is a sought-after speaker and retreat leader who specializes in embodiment. McBride’s work has been recognized by the American Psychological Association and the Canadian Psychological Association. She is the author of The Wisdom of Your Body and Mothers, Daughters, and Body Image, and coeditor of Embodiment and Eating Disorders. Learn more at www.hillarylmcbride.com. Connect with Hillary on Instagram.
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In this episode we dig into the pain points of being unpartnered when everything is getting more expensive. What's the mental load that unpartnered women carry about housing and job security? And what can people do that helps?
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Partner with us to hear our recap of the Christmas movie Best. Christmas. Ever! and join The Big Debrief call on December 26 (US)/ 27 (Australia) if you want to talk more about this episode.
In this episode our co-founder Jessica Van Der Wyngaard tells us the bittersweet news that she's stepping down as co-host of the show and why it's the right time to go.
Partner with us to hear Purity Culture News & Views next week, plus a fun Christmas rom com recap later in December.
Are you in Melbourne? Join Sheila Gregoire and Devi at St. Silas' Anglican Church on Wednesday, December 6 from 1-3pm. You can find St. Silas at 99 Bridport St, Albert Park.
Full show notes here
In this episode we explore what it means to lose our faith and community because our beliefs, or sometimes our very selves, put us at odds with the expectations of others. Can there still be a spiritual home on the other side?
Plus there's a special announcement about a new book club featuring Holy Runaways. DM @wheredowegopod to get Keara's email address if you want to join.
Partner with us for $3/month (USD) to hear Purity Culture News & Views this week.
Full show notes here (plus transcript)
Matthias Roberts (he/him) is a psychotherapist specializing in religious and spiritual trauma and the author of Holy Runaways: Rediscovering Faith After Being Burned by Religion and Beyond Shame: Creating a Healthy Sex Life on Your Own Terms. He hosts Queerology: A Podcast on Belief and Being and holds two master's degrees from The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology, one in theology and culture, and one in counseling psychology. His work has been featured by O: The Oprah Magazine, Bustle, Woman's Day, Sojourners, The Seattle Times, and many others. He lives in Seattle. Connect with Matthias on Instagram
Andy Stanley's megachurch, North Point, held a conference to equip parents of LGBTQ+ youth and young adults to love and accept their kids, and soon after conservative gatekeepers accused Stanley of abandoning historic Christian doctrine. This episode discusses North Point's method and asks the question: Is it a blueprint for churches to follow? We consider:
- North Point's engagement with the LGBTQ+ community for the past 10 years
- an affirming pastor's perspective on the conference
- will evangelicals handle LGBTQ+ affirmation eventually the way they deal with divorce today
- a Side B perspective on Stanley's sermon
- "slippery slopes"
Full episode show notes here (interview transcripts as well). Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter.
Partner with us to hear the uncut interview with David Bennett. Plus you'll get News & Views and a chance to chat about this episode on Zoom at the end of the month.
Zach W. Lambert is the Lead Pastor and founder of Restore Austin, a church in urban Austin, Texas. He is also the co-founder of the Post Evangelical Collective--a group of pastors, artists, and leaders committed to full inclusion, holistic justice, deep and wide formation, a gracious posture, and the Way of Jesus. Additionally, Zach serves on the boards of Restore Houston (a church plant he helped launch), Hub Garage (a non-profit for single moms), the Austin Church Planting Network, and the Multi-Faith Neighbors Network. Connect with Zach on Twitter and Instagram. You can connect with Restore Austin on TikTok and Youtube.
Dr. David Bennett is a visiting theologian at Reality San Francisco, a member of the Archbishop of Canterbury’s College of Evangelists and Postdoctoral Research Fellow at the Faculty of Theology and Religion. David is a graduand and recently completed his DPhil (2023), entitled ‘Queering the Queer: An Exploration of How Gay Celibate Asceticism Can Renew and Inform the Role of Desire in Contemporary Anglican Theology.’ From Sydney, Australia originally, he has lived in Oxford for the last decade. Author of the memoir, A War of Loves: The Unexpected Story of a Gay Activist Discovering Jesus (Zondervan, 2018). Connect with David on Instagram and Twitter.
Annie Parsons is having a baby, and she's an unpartnered, 41-year-old woman in middle America who grew up in Purity Culture. Yes, we have questions. Her answers tell a complex, beautiful story about what it's like to gain agency, build community, and the dare to hope for a miracle. We talk about:
- ditching dating and pursuing motherhood
- "insurance against regret"
- gaining financial stability as a single woman
- the long road of navigating fertility questions
Partner with us to hear a fresh Purity Culture News & Views episode this week. $3/month (USD) gets you in and there are romcom recaps plus a monthly zoom call with other partners.
Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter.
Full transcript here
Annie Parsons is a single woman in Kansas City who, after years of dating and hoping for marriage, decided to pursue having a child on her own. Many twists and turns later, through a fertility process, she is now expecting a baby boy any day now. This is obviously a non-traditional path to motherhood, especially for one who grew up immersed in the purity culture of the 90s, so she wanted to have a conversation about what it took to make this decision, from the practical to the spiritual. Connect with her on Instagram.
Anna McGahan is an Australian actress and storyteller who found God in the most radical of ways. Baptised into the Pentecostal tradition, she gave up everything to follow Jesus only to find that life in the church wasn't quite what it seemed. In this episode we discuss:
- meeting God and meeting the church, it's not the same
- finding agency in celibacy
- losing queerness to find God
- recovering a sense of equilibrium and self
Partner with us to hear The Jess & Devi Show and our take on the 1999 romcom She's All That (spoiler: it's not all that). Join for $3/month (USD).
Anna McGahan is an actor, author, screenwriter, playwright and poet. Anna's work prioritises a defiant female gaze to explore experiences of embodiment, motherhood, sexuality and spirituality. She is the author of the Vogel Prize-winning novel, Immaculate, a book of poetry about motherhood, Skin, and the memoir, Metanoia. She lives in Meanjin (Brisbane), with her two young daughters. Subscribe to her Substack here.
The evangelical message for girls was all about virginity, naivete, and silence, and millenial women are paying the price for it. "She Deserves Better" gets into what went wrong but also gives us a playbook for how to do better.
We talk about:
- the impact of modesty teaching
- what happens when girls are told they talk too much
- the importance of sex ed
Full show notes here
Partner with us to hear Jess and Devi's trip to a sex shop in Melbourne. We read out product descriptions and give our honest opinion about a (surprising) number of sea creature-like devices. Get it for $3/month (USD).
Sheila Wray Gregoire is the face behind BareMarrige.com, the largest single-blogger
marriage blog. She's also an award-winning author of nine books, including The Great Sex
Rescue, and a sought-after speaker. Connect with Sheila on Instagram.
Rebecca Gregoire Lindenbach is a psychology graduate, Sheila's daughter, and the
author of Why I Didn't Rebel. Working alongside her husband, Connor, she develops websites focusing on building Jesus-centered marriages and families. Connect with Rebecca on Instagram.
We're mixing faith and friskiness and spilling divine secrets on tasteful toys. Get ready to bless your bedside drawer with a touch of sex-educator-approved delights. Dr. Celeste Holbrook is back with the the quality sex education we need after purity culture life.
Partner with us to hear our thoughts on the Barbie movie, plus you'll get a ticket to The Big Debrief at the end of the month and more!
Full shown notes here (including a transcript of our interview wit Celeste)
Dr. Celeste Holbrook is a sexologist and speaker who helps her clients evolve into the people they were created to be, in and outside of the bedroom. She speaks on a variety of topics from sex drive and sexual shame to painful intercourse, purity culture and more. Her mission is to provide safe spaces for people to talk about sex Dr. Celeste has been featured in Women’s Health Magazine, Mothers of Preschoolers, Reader's Digest and more. Connect with Celeste on Instagram and take her classes online.
Purity Culture graduates left the movement with our feet stuck to chewed up gum, our fingers locked into purity rings, and our hearts (supposedly) irreparably broken. But these were images and metaphors given to us by an evangelicalism broken by its own damaged stories, images, and metaphors. This episode gets into what went wrong, and how we can start to make it right.
Join us in Patreon to hear about deconstruction in evangelical history. Join today and get a ticket to our monthly Zoom call happening on July 27 (9pm EST) and 28 (11am AEDT). It's $3/month USD, and you get romcom recaps, purity culture news & views, and more!
The Evangelical Imagination: How Stories, Images and Metaphors Created a Culture in Crisis16: Read Better Books (with Karen Swallow Prior)
Karen Swallow Prior (PhD, SUNY Buffalo) is the award-winning author of On Reading Well: Finding the Good Life through Great Books. She is a frequent speaker, a monthly columnist at Religion News Service, and has written for Christianity Today, The Atlantic, the Washington Post, the New York Times, and Vox. She is a contributing editor for Comment, a founding member of the Pelican Project, a senior fellow at the Trinity Forum, and a senior fellow at the International Alliance for Christian Education. Connect with Karen on Instagram and Twitter
While "Sound of Freedom" rakes in the profits in the US box office, there are still children in exploitative circumstances. Are search and rescue missions the most effective way of rehabilitating them? We bring you a Christian anti-trafficking expert who has seen the harmful impacts of well-intentioned evangelicals and knows that there's a better way forward.
We talk about:
- how this movie harms anti trafficking work
- the trafficking of children happens primarily through exploitative and forced labor
- how our dollars fund child slavery (hint: check your pantry)
- evidence-based models for successful anti trafficking work
- organizations you can trust with your dollars
Full show notes here (with all the organization links!)
Dr. Lauren Pinkston is a public academic, teaching through published writing, nonprofit coaching, facilitated workshops, and a newly released podcast. She holds a PhD in International Family and Community Studies from Clemson University. Previous to working in academia, Lauren lived in Southeast Asia researching the human trafficking crisis and starting businesses to employ survivors. She now consults for anti-trafficking organizations and small business startups, helping them institute trauma policies into healing-centered workplaces. Lauren is the President of Kindred Exchange, a non-profit focused on establishing more ethical missions practices and expanding jobs in the Global South. Connect with Lauren on Instagram
"Christians need to face the truth of who we are." That's what Professor Iwan Russell-Jones told us, and it's why we took a hard look at Hillsong through the FX/Hulu docuseries "The Secrets of Hillsong." In this episode we talk about church as the show and what it is costing us. We also talk about:
- the docuseries as Carl Lentz's redemption vehicle
- the cost of spiritual abuse
- should church be charging money for attendance and paying volunteers?
Full show notes here
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Partner with us to hear our romcom recap of 13 Going on 30 and get the full conversation with Professor Iwan Russell-Jones plus more partner perks.
Trigger Warning: This is a conversation about Frank Houston's three-decade history of sexually abusing children, and there are many references to the subject. Please proceed with caution if this topic is triggering for you. There are resources in the show notes about healing after trauma.
Frank Houston was a serial sexual abuser of children, but he walked off the church stage into forced retirement to the sound of a standing ovation. After his son, Brian Houston, knew about at least once incidence of molestation. We discuss this sad, enraging event and the way "The Secrets of Hillsong" brings together the different pieces of information.
Full show notes here
Join us for The Big Debrief on June 30 at 11 am (Melbourne time), June 29 (9pm EST/8pm CST) to talk about the past month of Hillsong stories and your church stories.
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We dive deep into the shocking downfall of Carl Lentz, former pastor of Hillsong New York, and ask questions about the supposedly eye-opening revelations from "The Secrets of Hillsong" documentary. A former member of Hillsong NYC joins us to uncover what the documentary misses, the culture of celebrity pastors, and the consequences of blind faith in broken institutions.
Full show notes here (including a transcript of the whole show)
Partner with us to hear our conversation with documentarian Professor Iwan Russell-Jones on why it's important for Christians to face the truth.
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What is true about the global megachurch Hillsong? There's a new docuseries out from Vanity Fair and FX trying to get to it. But do they get it right? Starting this week Jess and Devi recap the episodes for those of you in Australia who can't watch it yet and for those of you in the US who need a debrief. We've got you.
Full show notes here
Want more? Our partners get episodes weekly, including this week's deep dive into documentary filmaking. If you want some tools for how to watch this documentary and others, Jess has all the tips for you.
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Trigger Warning: This episode contains references to spiritual, religious, and sexual abuse. Please proceed with caution.
What do we do when a spiritual hero is accused of abusive practices? Jess and Devi were both impacted by Soul Survivor founder, the Rev Canon Mike Pilavachi, and in this raw and real episode, they process the recent news about the investigation the Church of England announced.
Want more? This week's partner-only episode of Purity Culture News & Views has the latest updates on the situation with Mike Pilavachi as well as more on how to deal with news about fallen Christian leaders. Sign up for $3/month to get it as well as romcom recaps and a ticket to the Big Debrief.
Full show notes here
At some point in childhood you first learnt about sex.
This might have been in the form of "the sex talk" from your parents. Or you might have heard it elsewhere.
In this episode we reflect on that sex talk from parents and from a parent and child's perspective. Join Jessica and her mum Caren for this special discussion between a mother and daughter around the sex talk.
What do we remember about that? What was said? What should be said? What would we do differently?
Our Instagram community also had a lot to share on this topic! Jessica shares their thoughts across these questions as well.
See show note links HERE.
Ever wonder what it's like to gather with a group of strangers to talk about purity culture? Our partners get to experience it every month in The Big Debrief. And now you get to listen in. In this episode you get a taste of the warmth, wisdom, and fun that's in our monthly zoom conversations.
Join us this month on April 27 (in the US) at 9pm EST and April 28 (in Australia) at 11am to talk about all the things.
Join us for an insightful discussion with Laura Tremaine, author of The Life Council, as we explore the challenges of making and keeping friends in adulthood. From busy schedules to changes in life stage, we uncover the top reasons why building meaningful connections as grown-ups can be tough, and share practical tips to overcome them.
Full show notes here Partner with us to hear a conversation with journalist Bekah McNeel, author of Bringing Up Kids When The Church Let's You Down. Partners get romcom recaps and Purity Culture News & Views plus a ticket to the Big Debrief.
Laura Tremaine is a writer, avid reader, and enthusiastic podcaster. She is the creator and host of the podcast "10 Things To Tell You." She is also the author of Share Your Stuff. I’ll Go First. (published February 2021), and her second book The Life Council: 10 Friends Every Woman Needs publishes April 2023. Laura lives in Los Angeles with her husband and two children. Follow Laura on Facebook & Instagram
In this episode for our partners, we delve into the ups and downs of Bridget Jones' Diary. From its charming wit and relatable protagonist to its problematic themes, fat phobia, and single-shaming, we take a critical look at this iconic piece of chick-lit and explore its lasting impact on pop culture and female representation. Want to hear the rest? Join us in patreon for $3/month (USD).
We delve into the world of Evangelical parenting with journalist Bekah McNeel. From perfectionism to purity culture, we uncover the the impact of Evangelical parenting on children's emotional, mental, and spiritual development. This is a sneak peak but you can listen to the full conversation when you partner with us for $3/month (USD). You'll also get Purity Culture News & Views, a romcom recap, and a ticket to the Big Debrief where you can share your thoughts with other like minded people.
Bekah McNeel is a journalist, wife, and mother of two. She's the author of Bringing Up Kids When The Church Let's You Down. Her work has appeared in Christianity Today, Sojourners, Relevant, The Texas Tribune, ESPN's The Undefeated, The Christian Science Monitor, Texas Public Radio, and elsewhere. In addition to pieces about parenting, she writes about education, immigration, and faith communities-as well as the occasional op-ed calling the American evangelical church to lay down its idols of White supremacy and patriarchy. Connect with Bekah on Twitter and Instagram
Trigger warning: this episode contains a short discussion of childhood sexual abuse. Please proceed with caution.
Purity Culture was bad for men, too. In this episode Zachary Wagner joins us to share his story combined with his theological study on how to build a non-toxic masculinity. We discuss:
- how purity culture dehumanized men
- growing up from boys to adult men
- strategies to help you grow
Full show notes here (plus a transcript!)
Partner with us for $3/month (USD) to listen to this week's Purity Culture News & Views episode on Hillsong's latest legal battle in Australia. Plus we talk about the Apple+ show Shrinking and more.
Zachary Wagner is an ordained minister and a DPhil (PhD) candidate in New Testament at the University of Oxford. He also serves as the editorial director of the Center for Pastor Theologians. Zach’s academic research focuses on the concept of reward in the Letters of Paul and Matthew’s Gospel. HIs first book, Non-Toxic Masculinity: Recovering Healthy Male Sexuality is being released with IVP in April, 2023. Zach lives in Oxford, England with his wife and three children. Follow Zach on Twitter
This episode is for all the people who were told your virginity was the most important thing about you. In this episode, we get into the meaning of virginity to evangelicals, the history, what we were told the Bible says, what the Bible actually says, and of course, we talk about where we can go from here.
Full show notes here
Join us for $3/month (USD) to get the full conversations with historian Sara Moslener and biblical scholar Karen Keen as well as romcom recaps, purity culuture news & views, and a ticket to the Big Debrief.
Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter
Sara Moslener is a lecturer in the Department of Philosophy, Anthropology, and Religion at Central Michigan University where she teaches courses on the history of religious and racial discrimination in the United States. She has been studying evangelical purity culture for over 15 years and has numerous publications including the book Virgin Nation: Sexual Purity and American Adolescence (Oxford University Press: 2015) which demonstrates how sexual purity campaigns and rhetoric have been used by white Protestants since the 19th century to obtain greater political power and cultural influence. Follow Sara on Twitter.
Karen R. Keen is a biblical scholar and spiritual care provider at The Redwood Center for Spiritual Care and Education. She works to make scholarship accessible to lay leaders and the public, particularly as it relates to the intersection of Scripture, faith, and culture. Karen has taught biblical and theological studies in both academic and church settings. Trained as a spiritual director in the Ignatian tradition, she also provides spiritual care through groups and retreats. Karen is the author of The Jesus Way: Practicing the Ignatian Spiritual Exercises, Scripture, Ethics, and the Possibility of Same-Sex Relationships, and The Word of a Humble God: The Origins, Inspiration, and Interpretation of Scripture. She is currently working on a book to be released in 2024 on sex and the Christian life. Karen earned her M.S. in education (counseling) from Western Oregon University, M.A. in exegetical theology from Western Seminary, and Th.M. in biblical studies from Duke Divinity School. Follow Karen on Twitter.
In this partner-only episode, we're dusting off our VHS tapes (or maybe just streaming it online) and rewatching the classic rom-com, Sleepless in Seattle. Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan stole our hearts in this movie over 25 years ago, but how does it hold up in 2023? Is it still as charming and romantic as we remember, or does it feel dated and cheesy?
Grab your tissues and your apple peeler, and join us for this hilarious and heartwarming trip down memory lane. Who knows, you may even fall in love with Sleepless in Seattle all over again.
Partners get this episode plus a ticket to the Big Debrief next week on zoom! Join us to chat about all the things, and get our entire back catalogue of episodes and new weekly podcast episodes about purity culture news and views, exclusive guest interviews, and more. Get it for $3/month (USD)
If you thought bad evangelical sex books were a thing of the 80s and 90s, guess again. Last week The Gospel Coalition lit the interwebs on fire by publishing an excerpt from an upcoming book by one of their (now former) fellows. This conversation untangles the sloppy reading of Ephesians 5, disturbing Roman Catholic roots, and what happens when we misuse biblical metaphors.
Partner with us for $3/month to join us for The Big Debrief, a zoom call where we discuss all the things you heard in this episode and more. You also get romcom recaps, Purity Culture News & Views, and special partner-only episodes.
Full show notes here
Amy Peeler is Associate Professor of New Testament at Wheaton College and Associate Rector at St. Mark’s Episcopal Church in Geneva, IL. She is author of Women and the Gender of God (Eerdmans, 2022), You Are My Son”: The Family of God in the Epistle to the Hebrews (T&T Clark, 2014), and co-author with Patrick Gray of Hebrews: An Introduction and Study Guide (T&T Clark, 2020). Follow Amy on Twitter. Rebekah Mui is a PhD student researching empire, Christian anarcho-pacifism, and postcolonial Anabaptism at Virginia Tech. As editor of KingdomOutpost.org, she engages Anabaptist thought with issues like Christian nationalism and patriarchal abuses in the wider Christian world. Read Rebekah's work at: Part 1: Lust, Love and the Doctrine of Two Kingdoms, Part 2: The Violence of Lust and Pornography Part 3: Sexual Sin, Purity, and Bearing One Another’s Burdens. Follow Rebekah on Twitter
Andrew T. Draper (PhD, University of Aberdeen) is founding teaching pastor at Urban Light Community Church and the author of A Theology of Race and Place, co-author of Disabling Leadership, editor of Christian Mission and Poverty, and has authored numerous articles on race, disability, and the church, including contributing a chapter to Can "White" People Be Saved? Follow Andrew on Twitter Christy Hemphill is an educator trained in linguistics who supports minority language Scripture translation, literacy, and language development efforts in Indigenous communities in Southern Mexico with SIL. She is currently working on an editorial team that is developing a translators' resource for identifying conceptual metaphors implicit in the figurative language of the Psalms. Follow Christy on Twitter Bekah Mason (ThM, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) has spent much of her adult life advocating for those on the margins of the church—sexual and racial minorities, foster and adoptive families, and abuse survivors. She is currently the Executive Director of Revoice and a founding member of The Pelican Project, and lives with her two kids and an absurd number of pets in Chattanooga, TN. Follow Bekah on Twitter.
Ready to take center stage? In this episode, we dissect the problems with the 2000 cult classic dance movie, Center Stage. From unrealistic depictions of relationships to cringe-worthy dialogue, we'll break down the issues with this beloved flick. Join us for an entertaining critique of one of the most iconic dance movies of all time.
Only partners get to hear the full episode, so join us for $3/month (USD).
Jess and Devi look back at their teenage years and wonder what if... we hadn't kissed dating goodbye. We talk about:
- what it's like to not get asked out
- our first dates
- regrets
- wisdom we learned along the way
- what YOU would tell your younger self about dating
Full show notes here (so many links about dating and app dating)
Follow us on Instagram and Twitter
Partner with us to hear our romcom recap next week - Center Stage. It's a ballet drama with a lot to say about romance, body image, and power. Get it here for $3/month (USD). It's coming on Monday!
Kendall Vanderslice is with us to talk about her upcoming book By Bread Alone, and this conversation is all about hunger, and the way our physical hunger for food mirrors sexuality, the distortion in our culture (and Christian culture) around hunger and women.
This episode is exclusively for partners, but you get to hear a sneak peak today. Get the full conversation for $3/month.
Show Notes: By Bread Alone: A Baker's Reflections on Hunger, Longing, and the Goodness of God (Preorder Amazon)
Kendall's Podcast
Visit Kendall Vanderslice's Edible Theology website
Visit Kendall Vanderslice's website Facebook | Instagram | Twitter
Kendall Vanderslice is a baker, writer, and speaker, as well as the founder of the Edible Theology Project, a ministry that connects the Communion table to the kitchen table. She is a graduate of Wheaton College (BA Anthropology), Boston University (MLA Gastronomy), and Duke Divinity School (Master of Theological Studies). Her bylines include Christianity Today, Bitter Southerner, Christian Century, Religion News Service, and Faith & Leadership, as well as her book We Will Feast (Eerdmans 2019). Kendall lives in Durham, North Carolina, with her big-eared beagle named Strudel, where she teaches workshops on bread baking as a spiritual practice. Visit her online at kendallvanderslice.com.
This is for anyone who feels like they don't belong in church or among white evangelicals. Journalist Sara Billups traces the question - "How did we get here?" - by looking at the impact of the culture wars and consumerism on a generation of white evangelicals. And she helps us take steps home. We talk about
- what is an orphaned believer and how did we get here
- the dignity of choice
- a propehtic imagination for the future
Full show notes
Partner with us to hear Jess & Devi's discuss Purity Culture News this week - Pamela Anderson has a new memoir (and so does Jinger Duggar Vuolo). Marie Kondo's house is messier than we thought?! Purity culture in Australia plus some shows and a movie you should definitely be watching. Get it for $3/USD a month!
Sara Billups is a Seattle-based writer and cultural commentator whose work has appeared in the New York Times, Christianity Today, and more. Sara is completing her Doctor of Ministry in the Sacred Art of Writing at the Peterson Center for the Christian Imagination at Western Theological Seminary. She works to help wavering Christians remain steadfast through cultural storms and continues to hope for the flourishing of the Church amid deep political and cultural division in America.
"Clueless" is the romcom that started the flood of high school coming of age movies in the 90s and early 00s, but what do we think about it today? You get a sneak peak of what our partners get to hear this week.
To hear the rest, join us for $3/month! It'll get you a ticket to our monthly zoom call next week on Tuesday at 9pm EST and Wednesday 1pm AEDT.
You get to hear a sneak peak of our conversation about Prince Harry's first time - what's the difference between how our culture talks about the first sexual experiences of men and women? SPOILER - we think there's a difference.
Want to hear the full conversation? Join our partners in patreon to hear about low libido after babies, plus all of Jess' recommendations about what you should be watching next.
Jess and Devi are finishing 2022 out with some big announcements about what's next for the show! Plus we also discuss:
- changes in opinion about gay marriage
- evangelicals' favorite heresies and why purity culture "helps"
- "Harry & Meghan" - is it a documentary or PR? We have a lot of thoughts
Full show notes here
Partner with us to hear our take on "The Holiday." Can women be single during the holidays and be happy? Is love addiction real? Can Jack Black be a romantic lead? We have so many thoughts, and you can hear them for $3/month (USD). Don't forget that the only episodes we'll be creating in January will be for partners, so now's a great time to sign up if you've been on the fence.
Connect with us on Instagram and Twitter
Christmas is almost here, and we think it's a perfect time to think about a woman's body and the story it tells about who God is. If God could occupy a woman's body for nine months before Jesus' birth, maybe we can begin to untangle what this might mean for our lives today. Dr. Christy Bauman joins us to talk womb theology and manger theology - it's a story about God and likely one you haven't heard of before.
We discuss:
- the impact of purity culture
- how a woman's body points to God
- what breasts, menstruation, wombs, and more say about the divine
Trigger warning: There is discussion of infertility and miscarriage in this conversation.
Full show notes here
Become a partner to hear Devi & Kelly talk about masturbation, desire when you're celibate, and more (plus next week is our final Green Room for 2022). It's $3/month (USD) for bonus episodes and a ticket to the Green Room. Dr. Christy Bauman is committed to helping women come into their true voice. She has a podcast entitled Womaneering and she offers storywork consulting, womaneering weekends, and marriage intensives with her husband Andrew Bauman through their organization, Christian Counseling Center for Sexual Health and Trauma. Andrew and Christy host Therapy Shorts podcast for couples. She is the author and producer of her works: The Sexually Healthy Woman, Theology of the Womb, Womaneering Perpetual Calendar, A Brave Lament, and the award-winning Documentary: A Brave Lament. She is a psychotherapist and author who focuses on the female body, sexuality, and theology. Christy’s work can be found at christybauman.com, and you can connect with her on Instagram.
What do you do when your child comes out? What are the next steps? This is for any parent regardless of what you believe; this episode will give you the tools you need to create a nurturing environment for your children so that they know they are safe and unconditionally loved. We discuss:
- being safe early
- what to say when your child says, "I'm gay"
- how to communicate with kids who don't want to talk about it
- sex ed for LGBTQ kids
Become a partner to hear this week's Purity Culture News episode - Devi talks through the Respect for Marriage Act, apps being used to find friends, and a new law in Indonesia.
Full Show Notes Here
Candice Czubernat has been a therapist for 17 years and is the founder of the LGBTQ affirming counseling and coaching practice, The Christian Closet as well as the teletherapy organization Progressive Christian Counseling. Candice is a graduate of The Moody Bible Institute and The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. She identifies as a lesbian and a Christian. She lives in a small mountain town in southern California with her wife, the love of her life, Crystal, and their 8-year-old boy/girl twins Deacon and Dylan. Connect with Candice on Twitter and Instagram.
A sex educator is in the house, and she's taking us back to school for the education most of us never got. Erica Smith founded the Purity Culture Dropout™️ Program to equip people like us with information and education that is "accurate, queer inclusive, trauma informed, compassionate, and comprehensive." We discuss:
- why sex education is more than preventing negative health outcomes
- what happens when we pathologize all things sex related
- all things masturbation
- sex toys and sex shops
Full show notes here
Join us in patreon to hear Jess & Devi relive the romcom, Notting Hill. Also coming next week, Devi and Kelly debrief this conversation on sex ed and masturbation. It's $3/month (USD) and you get three episodes a month plus a ticket to the Green Room where you get to meet others in the community.
Erica Smith (she/her) is an award winning sexuality educator and consultant with over 20 years of experience. She has provided comprehensive sex education and advocacy to young women and LGBTQ+ youth in Philadelphia’s juvenile justice system, worked in abortion care, and supported HIV+ and transgender adolescents and their families. In 2019, she developed the Purity Culture Dropout™️ Program to help people learn all of the sex education that they missed growing up in purity culture- sex ed that is accurate, queer inclusive, trauma informed, compassionate, and comprehensive. Erica lives in Philadelphia with her partner and house full of rescue animals. Connect with Erica on Instagram
It's no secret - the people who designed purity culture inteded it to benefit white, male, and straight people. What was unsaid was that purity culture was also about a kind of body, a body that had all the standard abilities. Dr. Amy Kenny disrupts the story with her life and work as a disability justice scholar and advocate. Could it be we've misunderstood who we are and who God is all along?
We talk about:
- the overlap between purity culture and the experience of disabled people
- maybe God isn't just "strong"
- what is the bodymind
- what happens when we add the disabled experience to the sexuality conversation
Join us for an exclusive conversation with Amy about disability in the church - should we have prayer ministry for healing? What's the difference between curing and healing? It's exclusive for our partners, and you can hear it and new episodes weekly for $3/month (USD).
Full show notes here
Amy Kenny (PhD, University of Sussex) is a disabled scholar whose research
focuses on medical and bodily themes in literature. She is a Shakespeare
lecturer at the University of California, Riverside, and is on the editorial board
of Shakespeare Bulletin. Kenny is a member and scribe of the Freedom Road
Global Writers’ Group hosted by Lisa Sharon Harper and has written for
Sojourners about disability in the church. She serves on the mayor’s Diversity,
Equity, and Inclusion Task Force in her home city, coordinates support for
people experiencing homelessness, and is colaunching Jubilee Homes OC, a
permanent supportive housing initiative in her local community.
Connect with her on Twitter and Instagram
Embodiment is a popular buzz word in therapy and spirituality circles, but does it have something for Christians and those coming out of a Christian background? Dr. Hillary McBride joins us to figure it out. We discuss:
- the impact of purity culture on embodiment
- what embodiment is
- how God is embodied in Jesus and what that means for us
- high control religious environments and their influence on how we see our emotions
For partners only! Join us in the Green Room this week to talk about this episode and all the other great ones in October. We've got TWO Green Rooms this month, one specifically for those of you in Australia who want to talk about our Purity Culture News episode on Andrew Thorburn, City on a Hill, and Essendon situation. Join us on Thursday October 27 at 8pm (AEDT) and 9pm (EST)
We have an upcoming episode with Dr. Hillary McBride on mothers and body image, and we want your voices on it. Record a voice memo starting with "Dear Mom (or Mum or Mama or Oma or whatever you call your mother)" and tell her what you wish she knew about her body. Email it to wheredowegofromherepodcast@gmail.com .
Full show notes here
Hillary L. McBride is a registered psychologist, an award-winning researcher, and a sought-after speaker who specializes in embodiment. McBride’s clinical and academic work has been recognized by the American Psychological Association and the Canadian Psychological Association. She is an adjunct professor in the department of counseling psychology at the University of British Columbia and has a private counseling practice in Vancouver. She is the author of The Wisdom of Your Body, and Mothers, Daughters, and Body Image and coeditor of Embodiment and Eating Disorders. Connect with Hillary on Twitter and Instagram
This episode is for any Christian who wonders how many more ministry leaders we have to see fall from grace in the headlines. Katelyn Beaty uncovers the love for celebrity at the heart of our churches and ministry, and she has thoughts about how to overcome it.
We discuss:
- why Christians love celebrities
- the difference between how men and women use celebrity power
- Bill Hybels and Carl Lentz
- why we shouldn't rush to put leaders back into positions of spiritual authority
Katelyn Beaty joins us to talk about what Christians should watch out for next (her answer may surprise you), and it's available for partners only. Get it here along with a Purity Culture News episode about Andrew Thorburn's resignation as CEO of the Essendon football club in Melbourne.
Full show notes
Katelyn Beaty is a writer, journalist, editor, and keen observer of trends in the American church. She has written for the New York Times, the New Yorker, the Washington Post, Religion News Service, Religion & Politics, and The Atlantic and has commented on faith and culture for CNN, ABC, NPR, the Associated Press, and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. She also cohosts the Saved by the City podcast (Religion News Service). Beaty previously served as print managing editor at Christianity Today and is the author of Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits are Hurting the Church and A Woman’s Place: A Christian Vision for Your Calling in the Office, the Home, and the World. Connect with Katelyn on Twitter and Instagram.
What does it mean to have a congruent life after purity culture? Therapy can help us get there, and Dr. Camden Morgante joins us to talk about how. We discuss:
- the impact of black and white thinking
- the benefits of mindfulness
- the long road of recovery
Plus listen all the way to the end for a special high-dollar giveaway for those of you who want purity culture coaching from Dr. Camden. Giveaway deadline is October 7, 2022, it's open world wide, and all you have to do is send an email to wheredowegofromherepodcast@gmail.com.
The Green Room is this week! Join us on Zoom on Thursday September 29 at 10pm EST/ September 30 Friday at noon in Australia by becoming a partner today for $3/USD.
Full show notes here
Dr. Camden Morgante is a licensed clinical psychologist and former college professor. She writes and speaks about relationships, sexuality, and faith and is a regular contributor to Christians for Biblical Equality’s blog Mutuality. She is currently writing a book on the myths of purity culture. Camden also provides Coaching services for purity culture recovery, egalitarianism, and faith reconstruction. Camden lives in Knoxville, TN with her husband, their daughter and son, and two rescue dogs. Connect with her on:
Instagram
Facebook
Twitter
Therapy after Purity Culture - have you been on the fence about it? We're here to convince you to give it a try. We know that purity culture can be experienced as a trauma, and therapist Jamie Williams is here to talk to us about: * the impact of rigid thinking on our minds * what happens when our bodies feel unsafe in religious spaces * how to spot dysfunctional relationship patterns * trauma re-enactments in dating * EMDR and future templating
On Instagram and Twitter this week, we'll be sharing tips as well.
Full show notes here
Join us as a partner to hear this week's conversation between Jess & Devi about some feel-good views and the heresies evangelicals in the US believe. For $3/month (USD) you'll get three exclusive episodes a month, and a ticket to the Green Room at the end of the month. Jamie Williams is a Licensed Professional Counselor Supervisor and the founder of Prosperity Counseling Services. With over 10 years of experience in helping others thrive through adversity, she has witnessed, professionally and personally, the growth we can all make with the right support and tools. Jamie has worked with clients with a wide range of concerns including anxiety, depression, mood swings, anger, relationship issues, Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, mood disorders, postpartum symptoms, parenting problems, self-esteem and those who have experienced trauma in many forms. Her therapeutic approach combines Gestalt, Narrative, Jungian Analysis, Experiential, and trauma-focused counseling modalities such as Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR), Trauma-Focused Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (TF-CBT). Jamie is also certified in and utilizes Integrative Somatic Parts Work and Neurofeedback. Jamie holds a Bachelors degree in Psychology and Child and Family studies from Arizona State University and a Masters degree in Mental Health Counseling.She is also currently pursuing a PhD in Clinical Psychology at Saybrook University. Jamie is a Licensed Professional Counselor Supervisor (LPC-S) in the state of Texas (#69979). Connect with her on Instagram.
What do you wish you could say out loud about abortion? We get into it in this huge episode. There's a lot of yelling on both sides of the abortion conversation; we try to cut through the noise and double down on the parts of the abortion topic that Christians tend to ignore.
- What abortion and purity culture have to do with each other
- Christians and abortion: What are the realities?
- Historical, Medical, Legal, Global: What's going on?
- Interrogating the solutions proposed by those against abortion and for abortion
Full show notes here (over 15 links)
Our partners got to hear a one-hour conversation with Dr. Olamide Ayoade-Alawi who is an economist researching the research about abortion. She gets into the data with us - what reduces abortions? What happens when abortion is restricted? We promise no one gets to feel comfortable after this conversation. Join us for $3/month to hear it and other weekly episodes about sexuality, faith, and pop culture.
Purity Culture was full of pseudo-theologies, and we get into one of them here: the Soul Tie. The idea that premarital sex forms a connection in the heavenlies, one that maybe can be broken, but also maybe not. Candice Marie Benbow joins us to talk Red Lip Theology, soul ties, sexuality, why she doesn't use the Bible to form her sexual ethics, and racism in purity culture. This is a provocative conversation that will give you lots to discuss with your friends.
Full show notes here
Partner with us to hear two new episodes this month: a romcom recap of How To Lose A Guy in 10 Days (with Jess!) and a Purity Culture News episode about happenings in the LGBTQ+ space inside the Anglican communion and the CRC denomination in the US. Join us for $3/month (USD) to hear exclusive content no one else gets to hear.
Candice Marie Benbow is a theologian, essayist, columnist, baker, and educator whose work gives voice to Black women’s shared experiences of faith, healing, and wholeness. Named by Sojourners as one of “10 Christian Women Shaping the Church in 2020,” she has written for Essence, Glamour, The Root, and VICE. Candice holds degrees from Tennessee State University, North Carolina Central University, and Duke Divinity School. She is the author of the recently published Red Lip Theology. Connect with Candice on Instagram and Twitter
After #MeToo exploded on to the scene, it seemed like the dating landscape for women changed. Consent is a necessary floor, but what is the ceiling for our relationships? Is consent enough to provide the meaning sex might have in our lives? This is the provocative territory Christine Emba's new book Rethinking Sex invites us into. Listen in to see where we go.
:00 - Get to know Kelly Wolfe
:15 - interview with Christine Emba
:52 - Kelly & Devi debrief
Full show notes
We talk to Christine Emba about privacy and accountability, but it's only for our partners. Join us on the inside to get this and other exclusive episodes when you partner with us for $3/month (USD).
Christine Emba is a columnist for The Washington Post writing about ideas and society. Prior, she was the Hilton Kramer Fellow in Criticism at the New Criterion and a deputy editor at the Economist Intelligence Unit, focusing on technology and innovation. Connect with her onTwitter
Jess sits down with a 30-something single friend, Emily, who is a convert to the world of app dating. Together, they share from their experiences dating via a variety of dating apps, talk red flags and share some advise. They look at 5 myths of app dating... is it safe? Are people lying to you? Lastly, how has COVID changed how app dating looks? Emily shares her thoughts on that too. If you're at all curious about online/app dating or already an app user, you won't want to miss this episode!
Full show notes
Instagram
Twitter
Partner with us for $3/month (USD) to hear our romcom recaps, Purity Culture News, uncut episodes from our guests, and get a ticket to the Green Room.
Trigger Warning: This episode contains references to grooming and sexual assault.
Purity Culture is part of the reason why our secular and religious culture's still don't know what to do with abuse. We are so many years out from #MeToo and #ChurchToo but current events tell us we are not learning our lessons. Today we look at the grooming in the best selling novel The Time Traveller's Wife, recently adapted into a series for HBO, and the ongoing comeback of John Crist. We cover:
- Jess going on maternity leave
- The Time Traveller's Wife HBO series (spoiler alerts!)
- is what happens in this story grooming?
- What does purity culture have to do with John Crist?
- Crist's past two years in a three act structure
- What hope is there for alleged abusers?
Partner with us for $3/month to hear our romcom recap of 27 Dresses! You also get purity culture news, uncut interviews from guests, and a ticket here to the Green Room.
Full show notes here
If you believed your body was unsafe, the source of sin, what caused others to stumble, this episode is for you. With kindness and clarity, KJ Ramsey leads us back to a God who made us for safety. In this episode we learn that:
- there is no division between our minds and our bodies
- your body is the place where God personally resides
- it is impossible to trust without a felt sense of safety
- practices that help us regulate
- how to cue safety
Partner with us for $3/month to get a ticket to the Green Room! We meet on Friday July 1 (US, 10pm EST) and Saturday July 2 (Australia, 12pm AEDT) to talk all things purity culture recovery. Get a ticket here.
Full show notes here (including resources about tapping)
K.J. Ramsey is a trauma-informed licensed professional counselor and writer whose work offers space to see every part of our souls and stories as sacred. She holds degrees from Covenant College and Denver Seminary and is the author of This Too Shall Last. Her writing has been published in Christianity Today, RELEVANT, The Huffington Post, Health Central, Catalyst, and Fathom Magazine on the integration of theology, psychology, and spiritual formation. She and her husband, Ryan, live near Denver, Colorado. Connect with K.J. online at kjramsey.com and across social media @kjramseywrites.
If you've got a stack of wedding invitations giving you anxiety about the next few weeks, listen in. MaryB. Safrit helps singles navigate wedding season with humor and honesty. This episode covers: * the cost - emotional and financial * should you say yes to every wedding invite? * navigating friend grief * YOUR tips and stories about dealing with wedding season
Full show notes here (includes MaryB.'s pre-wedding reflection guide) Partner with us for $3/month (USD) to hear MaryB. talk about how singles can survive church life and those awkward conversations with partnered people. You also get a ticket to the Green Room next week plus weekly episodes of The Jess & Devi Show. MaryB. Safrit is an author, podcaster, and coach passionate about filling the gap between what the church offers and what single Christians need. She is the host of Unsuitable with MaryB. Safrit, a podcast on which she interviews single Christians about their lives and faith, and the author of The Single Christian’s Church Survival Guide: How to Navigate Church Culture and Conversations Without Losing Your Mind, which is available on Amazon. She currently lives in New York City. Connect with her on Instagram
The founders of Big Kids Table join us to talk about "faith-inspired sex education and conversation." Is this even possible in the church or in Christian schools? Georgia and Lauren convince us that it's not just possible; it is necessary.
Full show notes
We recap the movie-musical Chicago from 2002 and talk about the parallels between it and the Johnny Depp v. Amber Heard trial by social media. Get this episode and so much more when you partner with us for $3/month (USD).
Big Kids Table seeks to liberate, educate, empower, and reveal the heart of God within sex, sexual desire, and relationships. They offer workshops and consultations in Melbourne, Australia and have an upcoming ecourse. Subscribe here and connect with BKT on Instagram.
One hundred episodes in, and we are just getting started! Jess and Devi talk about the beginnings of this show, what it means to us, and what it means to YOU. We also discuss the report about how the SBC's Executive Committee harrassed and intimidated sexual abuse survivors and colluded to hide information about abusive pastors in the SBC.
Full show notes here
Join us in The Green Room to talk about the events of the past month with other partners of the show. It's $3/month (USD) plus you get all the episodes of the Jess & Devi Show.
What is the story of how women in the margins influence the world? Professor and writer Kaya Oakes joins us to draw on the defiance of women in the middle ages and today and what that might mean for women in 2022. Our partners get to Devi and Kaya talk about the recent US SCOTUS leaked opinion on Roe v Wade. Join us for exclusive content for $3/month (USD). Full show notes here Talk to us on Instagram and Twitter
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Kaya Oakes is the author of five books, most recently including The Defiant Middle: How Women Claim Life’s In Betweens to Remake the World and The Nones Are Alright (Bookshop,Amazon, Indiebound).
Kaya’s essays and journalism have appeared in The New Republic, Slate, Foreign Policy, The Guardian, The Washington Post, and many other publications. She writes a column for NYU's The Revealer on forgiveness, and was Religion News Association's 2021 winner for best commentary writing. She teaches nonfiction writing at UC Berkeley.
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What happens when one of the largest megachurches in the world loses its founding and lead pastor? Does Bridgerton season 2 have something to teach us about love? You get to listen in to an episode that's usually exclusive to partners. Jess and Devi discuss purity culture news, and talk about what's streaming online that is worth watching. Purity Culture News & Views is one of the episodes our partners get every month along with exclusive cuts of guest interviews, a romcom recap, and a ticket to The Green Room. Join us for exclusive content for $3/month (USD). Full show notes here Talk to us on Instagram and Twitter
We can’t go a week without hearing about another Christian leader or ministry accused of abusive leadership. Is this a uniquely evangelical problem? We talk today about gaslighting, the tactic undergirding most forms of abuse in intimate relationships and institutions.
What is gaslighting? Why is it so damaging? How do we recover if we’ve been gaslit by someone we love or in church? Chuck De Groat joins us to unpack this must-understand topic. Our partners get to hear a special part of this conversation where we talk dating red flags and more with Chuck De Groat. Join us for exclusive content for $3/month (USD). Full show notes here
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Chuck De Groat is a Professor of Counseling and Christian Spirituality and Interim D.Min. Director at Western Theological Seminary . He's also a faculty member for the Soul Care Institute.
He is a licensed therapist, a spiritual director, author, and speaker and a Minister of Word and Sacrament in the Reformed Church in America. Chuck pastored in Orlando and San Francisco before transitioning to training and forming pastors. His experience includes training clergy in issues of abuse and trauma, pastor and planter assessments, church consultations, and investigations of abuse among pastors and within congregations. Follow Chuck on Twitter and Instagram
We are talking all about new motherhood - can a friendship between people without kids and people with kids survive the early days of a newborn? We talk about what not to say to a new mama, what TO say, and the ever-changing nature of friendships. Special guest noises made by Devi's 16-day-old baby!
Full show notes here
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Partners get bonus content from us every week! Join us on the inside for $3/month for rom com recaps, Purity Culture News & Views, and uncut interviews with our guests.
This week Jessica is joined by a guest co-host to discuss Greta Gerwig’s recent adaptation of Louise May Alcott’s beloved novel Little Women.
We revisit our own childhood’s looking back on the 1994 version of Little Women we all remember watching growing up and consider what strives have been made in how Alcott’s characters are explored in her updated retelling of the classic.
No typical show notes this week but below you’ll find the resources Jessica leveraged in preparation for this episode.
Special thanks to our honorary co-host today from Louise May Alcott’s home state of Massachusetts.
Devi will be back next episode.
“A New Generation of Little Women” from iTunes Extras with purchase of movie
“Making a Modern Classic” from iTunes Extras with purchase of movie
The Compromises of Greta Gerwig’s “Little Women by Richard Brody https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-front-row/the-compromises-of-greta-gerwigs-little-women
Greta Gerwig’s “Little Women” is Awesome. Here is Why by Rebecca DeWolf https://outofthetower-rebeccadewolf.com/?p=950
How Faithful Is the New Little Women Movie to Louisa May Alcott’s Beloved Novel? BY MARISSA MARTINELLI https://slate.com/culture/2019/12/little-women-movie-book-comparison-differences.html
Why Greta Gerwig's Little Women Movie Radically Changed the Book's Ending BY ELENA NICOLAOU https://www.oprahdaily.com/entertainment/a30186941/little-women-ending/
Artwork from: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/general-news/making-little-women-greta-gerwig-gives-modern-take-1868-novel-big-screen-1256879/
How Should A Christian Date? is a new book by Eric Demeter, but do we really need another Christian dating book? Eric joins us for an informative interview on dating in 2022. He's single, and the book covers everything from dating in church to dating online to dating multiple people casually. It is not the typical Christian dating book, but listen in to find out more. Full show notes here
Partner with us to hear a feisty debate we had with Eric about "porneia," and get all our excusive content.
Eric Demeter is currently a full-time missionary with Youth With A Mission in Greece, where he disciples young people from the Middle East. He’s a relationship and conflict resolution specialist who teaches YWAM staff and missionary students. Eric is passionate about what makes relationships tick and has used his skills as pastor, missionary, speaker, and adjunct professor at Bethel University. Connect with Eric on Twitter and Instagram
The new mini series documenting the beginning of Pamela Anderson and Tommy Lee's tumultuous marriage is out. But is this a "feminist statement" as actor Nick Offerman and others suggested or a violation of Anderson's consent?
We deep dive the history of internet's first sex tape and Pamela Anderson's story and give you all the thoughts
Full show notes here (lots of links!!)
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Partners get bonus content from us every week! Join us on the inside for $3/month for rom com recaps, Purity Culture News & Views, and uncut interviews with our guests.
Desire is part of who we are, and it points our lives toward something greater than ourselves. In this expansive conversation, we talk about why desire matters, why it cannot be stopped, and what it says about who we are as people. Want more? Our partners got a mini-masterclass on shame from Dr. Thompson. Join us here for weekly bonus episodes.
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Dr. Curt Thompson is a board-certified psychiatrist and the founder of Being Known, an organization that develops resources for hope and healing at the intersection of neuroscience and Christian spiritual formation. He is also the author of The Soul of Shame, The Soul of Desire, and Anatomy of the Soul. Connect with Curt on Instagram: @CurtThompsonMD
February is the month of love people say, but whether or not Valentines Day makes you cringe or gives you cheer, we can all celebrate our favourite pals. How about a Palentines Day party (or a Galentines?!)? The Lazy Genius herself, Kendra Adachi, joins us with her best party planning tips. We even talk about Zoom parties and how to make one sparkle. Don't forget to check our Instagram page this week for some specific party ideas for your very own party.
Full show notes here Partner with us to hear this month's rom com recap: While You Were Sleeping. Does it this 1995 hit hold up in 2022? We do a lot of gushing in this one. Get it here for $3/month. Kendra Adachi is the New York Times bestselling author of The Lazy Genius Way and the upcoming The Lazy Genius Kitchen, releasing in March 2022. Her podcast, The Lazy Genius Podcast, has over 11 million downloads and covers everything from cooking chicken to making friends. As a systems expert and professional permission-giver, Kendra helps others stop doing it all for the sake of doing what matters. She lives in North Carolina with her husband and three kids. Connect with Kendra on Instagram Website: https://www.thelazygeniuscollective.com/
*Trigger Warning: This episode contains reference to childhood rape, every manner of sexual abuse and violence toward women. We encourage you to proceed with caution and kindness toward yourself if these are areas of personal experience or concern.
Francine Rivers' novel Redeeming Love, released to a Christian audience in 1997, made an enormous impact on white evangelical women in the 90s and 00s. Pastors gave it to women to read, mothers passed it on to their daughters, and for many of you, it was a taste of God's love you'd never experienced before.
With the movie out now, it's a perfect time to revisit this book to ask some questions. What is this saying about women? What is it saying about "sexual sin"? Does this book have any similarities to the book of Hosea in the Bible? We have big thoughts - we're sure you do to.
Full show notes here
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Partners of the show get rom com recaps (we'll be doing one on the Redeeming Love movie when it comes out in Australia), Purity Culture News & Views, uncut interviews and a ticket to the Green Room. Join us for all this exclusive content for $3/month (USD).
We wrap up our series On Premarital Sex by talking to Professor David Ayers who has studied the sex lives of young evangelicals for the past 30 years. We also share the results of our survey and YOUR responses. What comes next for evangelicals when it comes to sexuality and sex education? We have all the thoughts.
Full show notes here
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Partner with us for $3/month and get an episode weekly of The Jess & Devi Show. This week it's Purity Culture News and Views where we talk about sex after 70, the morning after pill, and why men's social circles are shrinking plus all the shows you should be watching. Get it here!
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David Ayers is Professor of Sociology in the Department of Economics and Sociology at Grove City College, where he has also served previously as Dean of the Alva J. Calderwood School of Arts and Letters, and as Interim Provost and Vice President for Academic Affairs. He is author of two textbooks, most recently of Christian Marriage: A Comprehensive Introduction (Lexham, 2019). His book After the Revolution: Sex and the Single Evangelical will be released in Spring, 2022 by Lexham Press. He holds his Ph.D. in Sociology from New York University.
What if there was more to being men and women than cultural roles and expectations? Aimee Byrd joins us with an invitation to study the Song of Songs as something beautiful, glorious, and re-invigorating for our imaginations.
Join our partners for $3/month to hear Aimee talk about her book Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and the resulting backlash against the book. Partners also get weekly podcast episodes recapping romcoms and purity culture news.
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Full show notes here
Aimee Byrd lives in her hometown in Frederick, MD with her husband, Matt, with one teen, one young adult with her foot out the door, and one in grad. school. A former coffee cafe owner, Aimee now uses many of her conversational barista skills in writing and speaking. She is the author of Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and the upcoming book The Sexual Reformation: Restoring the Dignity and Personhood of Man and Woman. Visit Aimee's blog here and connect with her on Twitter @aimeebyrdhwt.
This movie has something for everyone - family drama, romance, and that holiday sparkle. It's the story of a tight-knit, wacky family, and the oldest son's "uptight" girlfriend. But does this 2005 movie hold up today?
We talk about grief, bad boyfriends and girlfriends, and what makes a good relationship. Get into it!
Partner with us for $3/month. You get to hear romcom recaps like this one, and December's is the Netflix movie Love Hard.
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Dr. Celeste Holbrook is a sexologist and speaker who helps her clients evolve into the women they were created to be, in and outside of the bedroom. She speaks on a variety of topics from sex drive and sexual shame to painful intercourse, purity culture, and more. Connect with Dr. Celeste on Instagram
If you thought purity culture was a thing of the past, guess again. Turns out there are new forms in 2021. We're calling it Purity Culture 2.0, and it's found on YouTube and Instagram and in new books. What do these new-but-old messages have in common? How do they exhibit characteristics of purity culture from the past? Listen in to find out more.
Take our new anonymous survey on premarital sex
Full show notes here
Partner with us for $3/month (USD) and get episodes of The Jess & Devi Show. This week it's a romcom recap of The Family Stone.
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No chewed up gum metaphors allowed in this episode about abstinence. You'll hear the thoughts and lived experience of a single woman in her 30s who chooses abstinence now. What makes this abstinence different from the True Love Waits pledges of the teen years? How is it lived out when it comes to app dating in 2021? Kathryn Freeman has all the insights for us in this fantastic episode.
Watch this episode on YouTube
Partner with us for $3/month. You get to hear our conversation with DeVon Wade also about abstinence, and why he chooses abstinence now.
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Kathryn Freeman is a leader, writer, and speaker at the intersection of faith, justice, and culture.Kathryn has a degree in English from Texas A&M University, a law degree from the University of Texas, and a Masters of Divinity from Baylor University’s Truett Seminary. Kathryn is one half of the podcast, Melanated Faith, a conversation about race, faith, and culture from the perspective of two Black Christian women. She has written for Christianity Today, Christ and Pop Culture, The Baptist Standard, The Houston Chronicle, Think Christian, and Austin Woman Magazine. Connect with Kathryn on Instagram and Twitter.
A portion of our Partner-only conversation with fat activist Amanda Martinez Beck. Beck joins us to talk about fatness and sexuality.
We incorrectly referred to Amanda as Amanda Beck Martinez throughout the episode. Her name is Amanda Martinez Beck.
Partner with us for $3/month.
Original Show Notes here
Amanda Martinez Beck is a fat activist and author of More of You: The Fat Girl's Field Guide to the Modern World, coming in May 2022. She is the host of the Fat & Faithful podcast and has a passion for helping others learn about the goodness of their bodies just as they are, today. Connect with Amanda on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. You can find her Etsy shop here and join her Facebook group All Bodies Are Good Bodies.
The conversation about human sexuality after purity culture is a conversation about bodies. All kinds of bodies. We know what our culture promotes as the "acceptable" body, but what does the church say? Is there a difference? And what does this mean for people who don't fit that mold? Fat activist Amanda Martinez Beck joins us to talk about fatness and sexuality, and we even get into the five myths about fatness and sexuality.
We incorrectly referred to Amanda as Amanda Beck Martinez throughout the episode. Her name is Amanda Martinez Beck.
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Partner with us for $3/month. The Green Room is October 28/29, and we'd love for you to join the zoom call!
The call is October 28 9pm EST/6pm PST and October 29 noon Melbourne time!
Full show notes here
Amanda Martinez Beck is a fat activist and author of More of You: The Fat Girl's Field Guide to the Modern World, coming in May 2022. She is the host of the Fat & Faithful podcast and has a passion for helping others learn about the goodness of their bodies just as they are, today. Connect with Amanda on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. You can find her Etsy shop here and join her Facebook group All Bodies Are Good Bodies.
Every month our partners get to hear us debrief purity culture in the news and pop culture that has purity culture resonance. This month we talk about:
- Lizzo's Ted Talk on the history of twerking
- criminalization of stealthing in California and the ACT
- SBC drama over sexual abuse coverups
- In The Heights, Impeachment, Dear..., and The Baker & The Beauty
We get into what these stories mean for us and the world, AND we talk about why these shows are must-watchable. You get a teaser today, and if you like what you hear, it's time to sign up!
Partner with us for $3 USD/month to get this full episode plus all the other fabulous episodes with guests, rom com recaps, and a ticket to the Green Room (next week!).
Purity culture told us to wait to have sex because one day (for sure) we would get married and have "really hot sex." Today we invite you to examine another aspect of the premarital sex conversation - celibacy. But let's re-imagine it with Pieter Valk and Dani Treweek, a therapist and a minister who are committed to living without sex as single people.
Full show notes here
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Our partners get to hear exclusive audio from our conversation with Pieter and Dani - join us on the inside to listen.
Pieter Valk is a licensed professional counselor, the director of EQUIP (equipyourcommunity.org), and cofounder of the Nashville Family of Brothers (familyofbrothers.org), an ecumenically Christian brotherhood for men called to vocational singleness. He helps churches love gay people and celibate Christians find family. Follow Pieter @pieterlvalk on all platforms.
Rev'd. Dr Danielle Treweek is a Christian pastor, leader and theologian with a ministry focus on biblical singleness, sexuality, worldview formation & other related topics. Dani completed a Doctorate through St Mark's National Theological Centre and Charles Sturt University. Her doctoral thesis is titled, 'The End of Singleness? Towards a Theological Retrieval of Singleness for the Contemporary Church'. She is an ordained Anglican deacon, has served on staff at a number of different churches and is the founding director of the Single Minded ministry. She has an upcoming book on singleness due to be published by IVP in 2022. Connect with Dani here, and find out more about Single Minded here
Our partners got our deep dive of the OG romcom When Harry Met Sally. This movie covers some of the topics nearest and dearest to the hearts of purity culture lovers, namely this big question:
Can men and women be friends without sex getting in the way?
Is there a difference between Harry's beliefs and the Billy Graham Rule? We talk about it here, and today you all get a teaser. If you like it, maybe it's time to partner with us.
Join us for $3 (USD)/month and get all the other fabulous episodes of The Jess & Devi Show with guests, romcom recaps, purity culture in the news, and The Green Room.
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Therapist and author Jay Stringer joins us today to help us address a listener question. "What do you think are the best concrete steps that men can take to retrain themselves to develop healthy relationships with women?" The answers are easier AND harder than you might imagine.
Hear what Jay has to say about recognizing our sexual story and its power over in Patreon for $3(USD)/month.
Full show notes here
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Jay Stringer is a licensed mental health counselor, ordained minister, and internationally requested speaker on the subject of unwanted sexual behavior. Jay holds an MDiv and master in counseling psychology from the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology and received post-graduate training under Dr. Dan Allender while serving as a Senior Fellow at the Allender Center. His award-winning book is Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing. Connect with Jay on Instagram and Twitter.
We are going THERE. This is the start of a two-part series about premarital sex. Today Matthias Roberts joins us to help those of you open to considering what breaking some of your former rules might look like.
(Note: In October you'll hear part two, a discussion about celibacy.)
Full show notes here
Join The Jess & Devi Show community as a partner, and hear this week's episode: Jess and Devi discussing the four paradoxes of sex outlined in Beyond Shame. You'll also get movie recaps, Devi Reads Jess The News (And Jess Tells Devi What To Watch), and uncut episodes with guests. Join today for $3 USD a month.
Matthias Roberts is a psychotherapist, author of Beyond Shame: Creating a Healthy Sex Life on Your Own Terms (Fortress/Broadleaf, 2020), and host of Queerology: A Podcast on Belief and Being. He holds two master’s degrees, one in Theology & Culture and one in Counseling Psychology from The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. Matthias writes and speaks nationwide about the intersections between gender, sexuality, mental health, and theology. Connect with Matthias on Instagram and Twitter.
Did you hear our new intro? Yes, we are here to untangle sex, self, and community for a new generation of Christians. Leave behind purity culture, and save what matters. Together, let's rebuild life and faith with Jesus at the center, so you can figure out where will you go from here?
We untangle together today with Brendan Kwiatkowski as our guide. If the versions of masculinity presented by the church and secular culture were restrictive, what comes next? How do we cast a better vision for masculinity? Brendan's researching this topic for his PhD, and his ideas are worth our consideration.
Plus Dr. Celese Holbrook joins us for another Ask Dr. Celeste segment - all your sex ed questions answered!
Full show notes here
Join our partners for $3USD/a month to get all the fun episodes in September (a recap of Legally Blonde is there for you to listen to now!)
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Brendan Kwiatkowski is a PhD candidate at the University of Edinburgh researching the relationship between adolescent males' levels of emotional restriction and their experiences and beliefs around masculinity. He was a highschool teacher from British Columbia Canada and due to covid is currently there with his spouse, three kids, and a dog. While he believes theory is important, he has little interest in research/academia that is so far removed from praxis. Follow Brendan
Dr. Celeste Holbrook is a sexologist and speaker who helps her clients evolve into the women they were created to be, in and outside of the bedroom. She speaks on a variety of topics from sex drive and sexual shame to painful intercourse, purity culture and more. Connect with Dr. Celeste on Instagram
When Jessica Van Der Wyngaard created the film I Survived I Kissed Dating Goodbye, she had to face her own relationship with Christian celebrity culture. For the first time on our show, she talks about what it was like to make the film, a film people would largely credit to Josh Harris. And she takes us on a journey to rediscover what is worth fighting for in the Christian story.
Show Notes Here
Watch the episode on YouTube Here
Don't forget to sign up for The Green Room by becoming a partner today! Jess will be doing an exclusive Q&A this week about her experience making the film, plus you'll get to connect with others who are thinking about purity culture and the way forward.
August 26 (Thursday) at 9pm EST/ August 27 (Friday) 11am Melbourne time.
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Trigger Warning: This episode contains references to sexual assault and other serious matters. Please proceed with caution.
Like many of you, we've been listening along to Christianity Today’s masterful podcast The Rise and Fall Of Mars Hill, and we had all the thoughts after the last one: The Things We Do To Women.
Think of this as the debrief you wanted to have with a friend after you listened to that episode. Jess and Devi talk power and control, the pornified imagination Mark Driscoll represented, and of course: Where do we go from here?
Watch this episode on YouTube HERE.
Full Show Notes Partner with us for $3/month to hear an episode a week starting in August! Romcom debriefs, uncut audio, Devi reads Jess the news, and the Green Room all for $3/month
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It's our last listener show, and we go out with a bang getting to talk to DeVon this week. He tells us about going from a church background to walking away from God and his return to the church. Purity Culture found him on his return to the church, and he's got all the thoughts on how he dealt with it, and what he's doing now to change the culture to build healthy friendships and partnerships between men and women in evangelicalism.
Partners get to join us in the Green Room this week, so if you want to chat, join our community in Patreon for $3/month. Two zoom discussion links available in Patreon this month:
Thursday, July 29 8:30pm (AEDT)/ 6:30am (EST)
Thursday July 29 9pm (EST)/ Friday July 30 11am (AEDT)
Full show notes here
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Raise your hand if you heard the phrase "Love the sinner, hate the sin." Turns out there's a psychological reason why this is impossible. Dr. Richard Beck joins us today to talk about the psychology of disgust and the unconscious ways in which we push people away whom we believe will contaminate us. Jess and Devi also debrief the power of metaphors, and the ways a metaphor can harm us (crumpled rose anyone?).
Partners get the full audio of this rich conversation, so if you want more from Dr. Richard Beck, join our community in Patreon for $3/month.
Full show notes here
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Richard Beck is an author, blogger and professor of psychology at Abilene Christian University. His most recent books are Hunting Magic Eels: Recovering an Enchanted Faith in a Skeptical Age and Trains, Jesus and Murder: The Gospel According to Johnny Cash. Richard writes daily about the intersections of faith and psychology on his blog Experimental Theology.
Jess and Devi are both sick this week, so the show is taking a little break.
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Or if you want to hear something new, this may be the week to partner with us to hear all the wonderful episodes we've got in Patreon.
Listener Julie joins us to talk about the fear of making mistakes and how it crippled her for years. You'll find yourself in the broad themes of her story as someone who had to take on Purity Culture, the prosperity gospel, and her own pride. It moved her from passive princess to the strong, single woman she is today.
Partner with us for $3/month to hear this month's romcom recap, "500 Days of Summer." You also get special guest episodes and a ticket to the Green Room.
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If you've been eyeing a summer bikini and hoping no one from church sees you, this might be your episode. Most of us had a parent or pastor telling us what to wear before we ever heard about premarital sex. The "modesty" conversation embedded itself into Purity Culture dictating the length of shorts, width of straps, and what kind of swimsuit was ok. We go through the problems with how modesty was taught and end with What Do We Wear From Here? We talk about ethical fashion, the context for our clothes, what's developmentally appropriate, and so much more.
AND!!! Dr. Celeste Holbrook joins us as our first contributor for a monthly segment answering YOUR questions about sex. Listen up for the inaugural q & a at the end of this episode. Connect with Dr. Celeste on Facebook and Instagram.
Full show notes here
Partner with us for $3/month and listen to July's new romcom recap: 500 Days of Summer! Plus you get to hear uncut episodes from Dr. Kristin Kobes Du Mez, Dr. Michael Bird, and so many more (and a ticket to The Green Room).
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We've got a BIG episode for you to finish out June 2021. Listener and book club member Steph joins us to share her where do we go from here? story. From conservative evangelical culture in the mid west of the United States to the discovery that she's queer, Steph's insight about life as a queer Christian and what being part of a church community has meant to her will encourage you.
As a special gift to you from our show, we've unlocked our Partner-only episode with Bridget Eileen Rivera so that all of you can listen to it in Patreon.
Get a ticket to the Green Room! We meet on zoom at 9pm EST on Thursday June 24 (11am Melbourne time, June 25). It's the perfect place to meet others on a similar journey, ask questions, discuss and grow.
Jess and Devi also start this episode off with a conversation about last week's hot topic: the song "Modest is Hottest." Is this a 2021 expression of Purity Culture? Should we give it any oxygen? What is real satire? We talk about it, and issue a challenge for you.
Compose a song satirizing modest culture - real satire! - record yourself performing it, put it on social media and tag us. We'd love to feature your work on the show if it's quality.
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One of Purity Culture's origin stories is the birth of the militaristic masculine tradition inside white American evangelicalism. It is a story clearly told and meticulously documented by Professor Kristin Kobes Du Mez in her singular book, Jesus and John Wayne. Pioneered by men like James Dobson then continued more recently by John Eldredge and Mark Driscoll, this movement sought to define the nuclear family as the most important unit worthy of the protection of a strong father figure. But what of the generation of men who read Wild at Heart, attended boot camps, and grew up believing they didn't fit the evangelical picture of masculinity? Their experience of reading this book is told throughout the episode as Professor Du Mez explains where the movement came from and how it shaped the fractured evangelicalism we see today.
Full show notes here
Partner with us for $3/month to hear Professor Du Mez's talk to us about the untold stories around Billy Graham, James Dobson, and Mark Driscoll.
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Kristin Kobes Du Mez is Professor of History and Gender Studies at Calvin University. She holds a PhD from the University of Notre Dame and her research focuses on the intersection of gender, religion, and politics. She has written for the New York Times, Washington Post, NBC News, and Religion News Service, and has been interviewed on NPR, CBS, and the BBC, among other outlets. Her most recent book is Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation. Connect with Kristin on Twitter
Move over Christian sex books, there's a rescue at hand. Sheila Wray Gregoire and her co-writers surveyed 20,000 Christian women, and what they found is shocking. If reading Love & Respect, the Act of Marriage, and others harmed you and your marriage, this is the episode for you. There is a way out of shame and obligation sex.
Full show notes here
Partner with us for $3/month to hear our recap of Miss Congeniality and get a ticket to this month's Green Room.
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Sheila Wray Gregoire is passionate about changing the evangelical conversation about sex! A popular speaker, marriage blogger, and award-winning author of nine books, including The Good Girl’s Guide to Great Sex, and her latest book, The Great Sex Rescue, she wants to challenge Christians to go beyond pat answers on marriage to reach real intimacy. Sheila believes in authenticity, and gives real solutions to the very real and messy problems women, and couples, can face. Connect with Sheila on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook.
Most of us who left Purity Culture know that there were two pieces of advice for successful relationships: Don't date a non Christian and don't have premarital sex. Ready for more? We tackle Christians dating non Christians today with data, practical truths and myths as well as your tender, truthful stories.
Full show notes here
Partner with us to hear this month's movie recap: Miss Congeniality! Does this hit from 2000 hold up in 2021? Sandra Bullock plus beauty pageant gave Jess & Devi lots to talk about.
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Morgan Strehlow joins us to tell her Purity Culture story. The church taught her how to be a good girl and expected her to lead, but left her without the tools she needed to deal with growing up. With vulnerability Morgan tells us about the impact of purity culture and how she internalized the obligation sex message and what she's doing to move forward.
Full show notes here
Want a ticket to The Green Room so you can chat with Jess & Devi and other members of the community? On May 27 (28 in Australia) we are having our first monthly zoom call for Partners of the Show. Sign up by the 27th to join this month's call.
We've all heard "The Bible clearly says" from pastors and people we know, so how do we get better at understanding biblical texts? Theology professor and academic dean Dr. Michael Bird joins us to look at the three big mistakes we make when we read our Bibles. Yes we look at historical context and reading our present moment into an ancient document, but we also talk about pragmatic and ideal ethics. There's so much good stuff in here to equip you to be a better student of the Bible.
Full Show Notes Here
Partner with us for $3/month to hear a bonus episode with Michael Bird going through three New Testament texts: 1 Corinthians 11:2-12, Romans 16:1-7, and 1 Timothy 2:11-14.
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Michael Bird is Academic Dean and Lecturer in Theology at Ridley College in Melbourne, Australia. He is an Anglican priest, author of more than 30 books on biblical and theological studies, including The New Testament in its World co-authored with N.T. Wright, he enjoys tennis, and hating coffee. He is married to Naomi and together they have four children. Follow Mike on Twitter @mbird13
Consent is a big word that's been in the news for the past few years, and when New South Wales Police Commissioner Mick Fuller suggested an app to regulate consent for the purpose of reducing assaults, we knew it was time for THE TALK. What is informed, enthusiastic consent? Why is it crucial for evangelicals to engage with this topic even with abstinence teaching? What does agency look like for women in relationships? This is the big talk about consent.
Full show notes here
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Want a movie that simultaneously makes you think about revenge and forgiveness, sex and consent, men and women AND romcoms? "Promising Young Woman" is director/writer Emerald Fennel's Oscar-winning movie, and you guys. We have BIG THOUGHTS about what it has to say to us today. Jess & Devi talk through the major plot points, tracking Cassie's choices in light of purity culture and the what the broader culture around us says about men, women, sex and consent.
(Warning: episode contains tons of spoilers)
Our thanks to Viviana Ortiz who created the episode artwork and allowed us to use it. Follow her: @vivs_studio
Bonus - go to the show notes for a free movie discussion guide
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It's time to hear one of YOUR stories. Today Jenna tells us about purity culture in California, how her teen years and 20s helped her make decisions as she got older. Her story will help you feel less alone.
Show notes here
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This week we start to find ways to heal, grow, and move forward. Therapist Krispin Mayfield gives us simple tools to begin the process of healing.
Full show notes here
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Krispin Mayfield a therapist trained in Emotionally Focused Therapy, working with individuals and couples in Portland, OR. He explores the intersection of spirituality and attachment science on his podcast Attached to the Invisible and has a forthcoming book from Zondervan in 2022. Connect with Krispin on Instagram and Twitter.
The science of attachment teaches us about how we relate to other people. As therapist Krispin Mayfield tells us today, we were created for connection, so how are we connecting with others if we were never taught how to do so in healthy ways? In part one today we cover the foundations of attachment: How we learn to attach, the coping strategies we use, what that might look like in our relationships.
Full show notes here
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Krispin Mayfield a therapist trained in Emotionally Focused Therapy, working with individuals and couples in Portland, OR. He explores the intersection of spirituality and attachment science on his podcast Attached to the Invisible and has a forthcoming book from Zondervan in 2022. Connect with Krispin on Instagram and Twitter.
Remember those talks about how to be a "Biblical" woman, or a Proverbs 31 woman? What if it was never about the Bible? Professor Beth Allison Barr talks us through the cultural forces that shaped how the church treated women from the medieval period to the Reformation to where we are today.
Full show notes here
Our partners get to hear Dr. Barr explain how women have been written out of the English Bible, and you can too by joining today for $3/month.
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Beth Allison Barr (PhD, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill) is professor of history and associate dean of the Graduate School at Baylor University in Waco, Texas, where she specializes in medieval history, women’s history, and church history. She is the president of the Conference on Faith and History and is a member of Christians for Biblical Equality. Barr has written for Christianity Today, the Washington Post, and Religion News Service, and is a regular contributor to The Anxious Bench, the popular Patheos website on Christian history.
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Trigger Warning: rape and sexual assault
What do you do when the news is triggering? Australia's been reeling with its own #MeToo moment, and as headline after headline broadcasted the names of abusers and politicians, we wanted to centre you, the survivors. Psychologist Naomi Palmer joins us to give us tips for those of you processing triggers as well as how to support the ones you love who are dealing with the news in a more personal way. This episode also starts off with a discussion about app dating, and how to gain confidence in dating after purity culture (Jess has five practical tips).
Show notes here
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The last episode of the month is when we get to hear YOUR stories, and today Julia talks to us about untangling purity culture and deconstructing her faith...in 2008. She was way ahead of schedule, and she's got stories and insights to share with us about how she went about doing it. Listen to hear more about parenting, managing anxiety, questioning your faith, and rebuilding.
Full show notes here
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We hear a lot about what the New Testament supposedly says about.. everything (including sex). But as we're reminded today by our guest, the New Testament is largely made up of letters that we're "eavesdropping" on. So if we want to know what these letters might mean for us, we'll need to get to know who wrote the letter and to whom. New Testament Christians. What was their cultural context? What ideas formed the people around them and how did this uniquely shape the way the gospel was communicated?
This episode is packed with insights from Professor Mariam Kamell Kovalishyn from Regent College, and the full conversation is available only for our partners for $3/month.
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Mariam J. Kovalishyn joined the faculty at Regent College in 2010, and was appointed Assistant Professor of New Testament in 2013.
The majority of Mariam’s research has centered on the epistle of James, Jewish literature of the Intertestamental period, and classical Graeco-Roman literature. Additionally, since coming to Regent, she has expanded to researching and writing across the epistles, Pauline and General.
Mariam has co-authored a commentary on James (Zondervan), has published a number of articles in books and journals. She is currently working on another commentary on James for the Story of God series, and a biblical theology of social justice for Zondervan, as well as a commentary on 1 and 2 Peter.
Jess got married, and we are talking about it! What if "Congratulations" is the wrong thing to say at a wedding? How can we see marriage as a different stage of life instead of a promotion from singleness? We also talk about Meghan Markle and Prince Harry's interview with Oprah Winfrey, a couple talking about their first few years as newlyweds. What does this tell us about marriage? And we finish it off with your marriage advice - the good, the bad, and the... well.. listen to hear it all.
Full show notes
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This episode is part of our Jess & Devi Show series for our partners, but today you get a peak at the magic on the inside with our recap of the 1999 hit rom com "Never Been Kissed."
Josie Grosie. Teacher Sam Coulson. Horrible prom memories (remember Billy??) and drugged brownies. Let's walk back through memory lane to see if the movie that gave some of us chills is any good in 2021.
Show notes here
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What's the best way to push back against celebrity culture? Listen to people who aren't on the platform. We do that once a month by featuring YOUR stories. Today we hear from Amy, one of our earliest listeners and partners. She's a public school English teacher, and we talk about purity culture in Australia, finding her voice, how she navigated app dating, and where she's going from here.
Full show notes here
If you want to join the Ladies Night Book Club, it's your last chance. Come read Redeeming Sex by Debra Hirsch with us in March and April for $9/month. Join us for weekly zoom calls, Facebook discussions, a Q&A with Debra Hirsch, and an exclusive conversation with her as well.
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Debra Hirsch published the book Redeeming Sex in 2015 before evangelicals had the language we do today for the connection between spirituality and sexuality. Her work flows out of her decades of lived experience as a counselor and pastor working with people in the area of sexuality. She has a lifetime of wisdom and insight to share with us, and we get a piece of that in this conversation. We are more than our genital "bits and bobs" as Deb says, we are wired to know and be known, love and be loved, we are wired for connection and intimacy, for a sexuality that is social, not just genital.
Full show notes here
Want more of the story Deb is telling here? Join us for the Ladies Night Book Club for $9/month as we read Redeeming Sex in March and April.
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Deb Hirsch is a speaker, church leader, and writer who has led churches in both Australia and Los Angeles. She is one of the founders of Forge Mission Training Network and is a member of the Forge America national team. She also serves as a board member for Missio Alliance and was part of the leadership team of Christian Associates, a church planting movement in Europe, North & South America. Her book Redeeming Sex reflects her own journey and attempts to bring new conversations about sexuality into the context of the church. Deb has been involved in social work, community development and as a trained counselor has worked in the field of sexuality for over twenty-five years.
We discuss the report released last week by Miller & Martin PLLC about numerous allegations of sexual abuse and misconduct by Ravi Zacharias.
Full show notes here
Join the Ladies Night Book Club for $9/month for March 1 start - we are discussing Redeeming Sex by Deb Hirsch
Laura Tremaine is a storyteller and she joins us for a candid conversation about her life in a white evangelical subculture, how she moved out of it in Hollywood, and how she navigated her relationships and sexuality. Laura's superpower is sharing her stuff and encouraging us to do the same. She models that for us today by telling us the stories at pivotal points of her faith, relationships, and sexuality.
We talk about:
- how her parents trust empowered her
- what sex revealed to her about what she believed about God
- why sharing our stuff matters
You also get to hear from a member of our Ladies Night Book Club, Morgan, who shares why she joined and why you should too.
Join the Ladies Night Book Club for $9/month. We start Redeeming Sex by Deb Hirsch on March 1, and if you're part of our book club, you get weekly zoom calls to discuss what you're learning in a safe group of spiritually curious women. You also get an exclusive podcast interview with Deb Hirsch and get to ask her your questions in a zoom Q&A. Join today!
Show notes here
Laura Tremaine is a writer and podcaster. On her weekly podcast 10 Things to Tell You, she encourages listeners to take the episode prompts to a friend or to their journal, because meaningful connections come from good conversations. Her first book Share Your Stuff. I'll Go First. released in February 2021. Laura lives in Los Angeles with her husband, Jeff, and their two children. You can connect with Laura on Instagram @laura.tremaine.
February the month of love! Why is it though that both the broader culture and church culture tries to funnel us toward romantic love as the only expression of love there is? We want to celebrate Galentines today (and may we suggest, Guy-entines?!), and celebrate the reasons why our friendships are worth the investment. We explore why it might be tricky in our highly online, disconnected world, and we examine how to maintain friendships while dating or after marriage.
We also open up the mailbag and have another segment with Dr. Celeste Holbrook answering a sex question at the end.
Full show notes here
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Been thinking about joining us for book club? Ladies Night Book Club starts a new book on March 1. Sign up here for $9/month. Or become a partner for $3/month and get two extra podcasts a month - an uncut interview and a deep dive into movies from the 80s and 90s.
Every month we are going to bring you stories of every day people who listen to the show and are working out what to do with what they learn here. Today, we meet Jason. He's from California but lives in Melbourne with his wife and family, and he's a chaplain at a Christian school.
He tells us about:
- his youth group years
- life at a conservative Bible college
- the transition into adulthood in Australia
- and how he's learning to listen and develop empathy for people who aren't like him
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Partner with us for $3/month and hear our newest episode of The Jess & Devi Show as we watch movies from our teens. First up, we watch and discuss 10 Things I Hate About You. Does it still hold up? What did it get right? What did it get wrong? This is exclusive for Partners of the show.
Full show notes here
Consider this your private appointment with a sex educator to find out all the details you missed out on about s-e-x. Dr. Celeste Holbrook joins us to talk about spontaneous and responsive arousal, sexual pivoting, and some basics around communication when it comes to sex. This is a conversation for grown ups only, and for people who are ready to have better sex now.
Full show notes here
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Dr. Celeste Holbrook is a sexologist and speaker who helps her clients evolve into the women they were created to be, in and outside of the bedroom. She speaks on a variety of topics from sex drive and sexual shame to painful intercourse, purity culture and more. Her mission is to provide safe spaces for people to talk about sex Dr. Celeste has been featured in Women’s Health Magazine, Mothers of Preschoolers, Reader's Digest and more. Connect with Dr. Celeste on Instagram
It's not ONE sex talk, it's one hundred one-minute conversations about sexuality, intimacy, and body curiosity. Ever wondered how to parent your kids in a way that celebrates their sexuality instead of fearing it? THIS is the one you've been waiting for as we welcome Dr. Tina to our show. She brings a wealth of wisdom and practical advice drawing from over 30 years of experience in sexual health, therapy, and education. Not a parent? Maybe you've been wondering how to reparent yourself from the years you spent in Purity Culture - this conversation is for you too. Learn how to have compassion for your younger self and walk forward embracing the gift of your body, your curiosity, and your sexuality.
Show notes here (loads of great info from Dr. Tina and more)
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Tina Schermer Sellers, PhD, LMFT, CSTS is a licensed sex and gender feminist psychotherapist, writer, researcher, supervisor, and public figure whose expertise spans sex therapy, spiritual intimacy, medicine, parenting, and social justice. Dr. Sellers' book Sex, God, & the Conservative Church – Erasing Shame from Sexual Intimacy has had a global impact exposing the damage of sexual shame. Now she speaks throughout the world on how to heal, and how to raise shame-free relationally confident children. Connect with her on Instagram @drtinashameless
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We start 2021 off with a letter from our mailbag, personal news, and a look at the recent report from Miller & Martin regarding the firm's investigation into allegations of sexual misconduct against Ravi Zacharias. The news is bad. Do Christians like Tim Tebow, Louie Giglio, and Christine Caine who publicly said #thankyouRavi owe his victims an apology? We also look back at the heartwarming Christmas movie Love, Actually to see if it holds up, actually.
Full show notes here
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Ravi Zacharias. John Crist. Carl Lentz. It hasn't been a good year for famous Christians, specifically as it relates to sex. Today we revisit one of our most-downloaded conversations from 2020, but we add in a conversation about Carl Lentz, the celebrity pastor of Hillsong Church NYC fired for having an affair. Do we need Christian celebrities? We say no.
An important note: After we recorded this episode, RZIM released a statement revealing the truthfulness of the allegations of sexual misconduct (their words) against Ravi Zacharias. We don't cover the latest news in this episode, but we encourage you to read the latest statement.
December 31 is the last day to sign up for the Ladies Night Book Club! Zoom 1 is on January 7, and we can't wait to talk to you.
Full Show Notes Here
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Waiting for permission? You're not the only one... Listen in to this remix of Devi's conversation with sex therapist and author, Sheila Gregoire - our guest on the episode Sex is for Wives too. We update our debrief on Sheila's profound insights and take the conversation further discussing individual agency around major life decisions such as sexual ethics.
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Full show notes here
Christmas is a time for romance, or so the Hallmark movies go. What do we do when we're alone during the holidays? And what about 2020 the year when there may be no gatherings because of Covid-19? We gathered three single women together who are all in different stages of their lives, homeowners, living with parents, living on their own, to talk about what single life is like during the holidays.
For those of you who are single, we hope this helps you know that you're not alone. For those of you who are partnered, let this grow empathy in you for what you're single friends are experiencing.
Full show notes here
Join the Ladies Night Book Club for $9/month. We start reading Beyond Shame by Matthias Roberts on January 1!
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In January we start reading Beyond Shame by Matthias Roberts, so we remixed our last conversation with him for you today. With the wisdom and compassion of a therapist, Matthias talks to us about the building blocks of healthy sexuality. Jess & Devi round out the conversation by talking about how we can find common ground with people with whom we might disagree. Why does this common ground matter? Why do we need to address our own intellectual insecurities? Listen in to find out.
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Full episode show notes here
Matthias Roberts is author of Beyond Shame: Creating a Healthy Sex Life on Your Own Terms (Fortress, 2020) and host of Queerology: A Podcast on Belief and Being which was named as one of the “12 Best LGBTQ+ Podcasts of 2020” by O: The Oprah Magazine and the #1 Podcast to Listen to on National Coming Out Day by Radio.com. He holds two master’s degrees, one in theology and culture and one in counseling psychology from The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. In his psychotherapy practice, Matthias specializes in helping LGBTQ+ teens and adults live confident and fulfilling lives. He writes and speaks often about the intersections between gender, sexuality, mental health, and theology.
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All December 2020 we are revisiting our earlier episodes from season 1. Should we use the word "sexual purity" or is there a better way to talk about our sexuality as Christians? Jess and Devi chat today about how beliefs have evolved (or not) in the past year. Would we say the same thing now as we did last year?
Are words like "virginity" and "sexual purity" the best ways to talk about the human body and the human sexual experience? Listen in to hear our conclusions.
Listen to the full version of episode 2 here
Full show notes here
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She's gone from "It's a love story/ Baby just say yes," to "I think I've seen this film before/ and I didn't like the ending." What does Taylor Swift's music mean for Christians and people leaving Purity Culture? Dr. Kutter Callaway joins us to talk pop culture, how we interpret music, skills we need to be better discerners of popular culture, and even what it means to be an image bearer of God. The answer may surprise you.
Full show notes here
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Kutter Callaway is associate professor of theology and culture at Fuller Seminary and co-director of the Reel Spirituality Institute. His most recent books are The Aesthetics of Atheism: Theology and Imagination in Contemporary Culture (Fortress Press, 2019) and Deep Focus: Film and Theology in Dialogue (Baker Academic, 2019). In 2017, he wrote Breaking the Marriage Idol: ReConstructing our Cultural and Spiritual Norms. He is the father of three young girls and has been married for almost 20 years to Jessica. Follow Kutter on Twitter.
Erika from Canada joins us today to talk about how she figured out sexual ethics as a teen and young adult. She came from a non religious household and continues to be non religious, but her ideas about sexual ethics are not what you've seen in the movies. Erika takes us through her thoughtful choices and helps us see how we can intentionally make decisions about our sexual ethics.
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Jess and Devi also reflect on the impact of building your own moral compass instead of using one that someone else gave you (especially if you don't have the instructions).
Full show notes here
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Rachel Joy Welcher's new book Talking Back to Purity Culture: Rediscovering Faithful Christian Sexualitytakes on the heavyweights of publishing past. Didn't like I Kissed Dating Goodbye, Wild at Heart, And the Bride Wore White? This book goes into the many problems with the books of purity culture past while also focusing on the tender ground we walk on moving forward in sexual ethics. We talk about how tricky it is to work things out with nuance, why reading in groups yields better results than reading alone, and how suffering can shape our view of human sexuality.
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Rachel Joy Welcher (MLit, University of St. Andrews) is a columnist and editor at Fathom magazine. She is the author of two books of poetry: Blue Tarp and Two Funerals, Then Easter. Her writing has appeared in The Gospel Coalition, Mere Orthodoxy, Relevant, and The Englewood Review of Books, and her most recent book, Talking Back to Purity Culture: Rediscovering Faithful Christian Sexuality from InterVarsity Press, explores the damaging messages from modern purity culture and presents a better way forward for the Church. She lives in Glenwood, Iowa, with her husband, Evan. You can connect with Rachel on Twitter and Instagram.
Abortion is a conversation about women's bodies, and it is part of the conversation about sexual ethics. Today we connect the dots between Purity Culture rhetoric and abortion. Andrea Lucado joins us to discuss her op-ed, How the female body became a scapegoat for white evangelicals.
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Andrea Lucado is a freelance writer based in Austin, Texas. She is the author of English Lessons: The Crooked Path of Growing Toward Faith and has contributed articles to publications such as The Washington Post, Fathom magazine, and Christianity Today. Connect with Andrea on Instagram
Are you single in church and wondering if you should ask someone out or waiting for someone to ask you out? The stakes feel high, but you're looking for connection. You're tired and wondering how and when this is going to happen.
Dallas Pastor JD Rodgers asked the question on his Instagram account, Why aren't Christian guys asking Christian girls out? You had big thoughts about his assumptions, so we posed this question and others to two Christian men, Joel and Matt, and their insights into the experience of being a single man in a Christian community give us all something to think about. Turns out the guys in our pews are tired of the pressure and shame to do with dating too.
Full show notes here
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You're not the only one who expected to marry the first person they dated. Lots of evangelical teens raised in Purity Culture did. There was no talk on how to break up. No advice on what to do after you got dumped by someone you loved. We start to undo that today by talking about the personal side of breakups - what to do when a relationship ends, how can "metabolizing your trauma" help, and what does a future after a break up look like.
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Joy Beth Smith is the author of Party of One and winner of the Evangelical Press Association’s Higher Goals in Christian Journalism Award. She’s been published in the New York Times, Washington Post, Salt Lake Tribune, Christianity Today, and Christ and Pop Culture. After earning her MA degree in English Lit, JB had a brief stint as a teacher, but she now works in advertising and happily resides in the Chicagoland area. Follow her on Twitter @JBsTwoCents.
Do you despair when you look at the state of the world and the church today? Let our deep dive into the life of Josephine Butler give you courage. This extraordinary English woman was born into wealth and privilege in 1828 but spent decades of her life working to reform English society. She was a social worker, a government activist, and legal reformer. Josephine Butler campaigned for decades to give women in England a right to an education, work, vote. She worked to improve the rights of prostitutes and other women who were seen as "outcasts" in English society. As you re-imagine your life after purity culture, let Josephine Butler's life help you cast a new vision for what an effective faith can look like in our world today.
Get the full audio of our conversation with Dr. Amanda Russell-Jones by joining The Jess & Devi Show community
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Full show notes
Amanda Russell-Jones is a sessional lecturer at Regent College. She is a historian with an interest in how the Bible is interpreted and applied to issues of slavery, and women’s relationship to the church both in different historical settings and in our contemporary world. Her recent PhD thesis from the University of Birmingham in the UK was entitled ‘The Voice of the Outcast- Josephine Butler’s Biblical Interpretation and Public Theology.’
"We are more than walking pelvises, but we need our pelvises to walk," says Sophia McLean. We talk about pelvic health, the connection between painful sex and purity culture, and the significance of a faith that is embodied.
To hear our full conversation with Sophia, join us for $3/month on Patreon.
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Full show notes here
Sophia McLean is a pelvic health physiotherapist in London, Ontario. She has a physical therapy degree from Boston University in and a theology degree from Regent College. She works with clients one-on-one, teaching to small groups, writing educational material, and continuing to explore the intersection of Christian faith, embodiment, and pelvic health. To work with Sophia, you can contact her at sophiamclean.dpt@gmail.com.
No episode from us this week, but we'll be back next week to talk all things pelvises.
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The language we use to define the queer experience matters, and "same-sex attraction" does not cut it. Bridget Eileen Rivera goes into the history of the words "homosexual" and "same sex attraction" and explains why we need the LGBTQ+ community to use its words to define their experience. This is an expansive conversation about language and also about Bridget's experience as a lesbian Christian.
To hear our full conversation, become a partner today.
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Bridget Eileen Rivera is a writer, speaker, and educator completing her doctoral studies in sociology. She engages in public advocacy related to faith, gender, and sexuality, challenging the church to do better in its inclusion of LGBTQ people. Her first book, Heavy Burdens (Brazos Press, expected 2021), unpacks the legacy of LGBTQ discrimination in the church, helping Christians to better understand the experiences of LGBTQ people within Christianity and guiding readers to consider the tough questions necessary in charting a new path for the church. You can learn more about Bridget at bridgeteileenrivera.com or by following her on Twitter.
Knox McCoy reflects on male youth group culture and why we need to reconsider the evangelical approach to purity culture, and he shares how he has the conversation about masculinity and sex with his own children. We also talk about how the depiction of male and female sexuality has changed from Superbad in 2007 to Booksmart in 2019.
Join the Ladies Night Book Club here Knox McCoy began podcasting in 2011 as a way to talk more about popular culture, and to his extreme surprise, he’s still doing it via The Popcast with Knox and Jamie and The Bible Binge. He's the author of All Things Reconsidered: How Rethinking What We Know Helps Us Know What We Believe. Connect with Knox on Twitter and Instagram.
Trigger warning: Episode contains references to rape and sexual assault. The #MeToo movement isn’t just about the Harvey Weinsteins of the world. It’s also about Christians leaders in positions of power who wield that power for evil. Pastor, author, and speaker Ruth Everhart survived an assault and dealt with an abusive senior pastor in her early days as an associate pastor. After decades of ministry, she helps us navigate power, the Bible, and justice in a way that will bring you freedom and strength. Full show notes here And on The Jess & Devi Show, we talk about Tamar and Ammnon using The #MeToo Reckoning as our guide. Talk to us on Twitter & Instagram Ruth Everhart is an author, speaker, and pastor who has served Presbyterian (PCUSA) churches for more than twenty years. The author of three books, her most recent is The #MeToo Reckoning: Facing the Church’s Complicity in Sexual Abuse and Misconduct, which weaves together contemporary stories and ancient scripture to call the church to lament, repent, and build a community of equality and justice. Connect with Ruth: Web Twitter Facebook Instagram
Get ready to learn today from Faitth Brooks and Kathryn Freeman about what it's like to navigate the world as a single, Black, Christian woman. We talk about purity culture, dating and dating apps, and evangelical perceptions of what makes a "good" woman.
Use this episode as a tool to better understand your African American friends and as a tool as you navigate interracial relationships even if you don't live in the U.S.
Full episode show notes here
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Melanated Faith is a Be the Bridge Collective podcast about faith, race, and culture hosted by Faitth Brooks and Kathryn Freeman.
Faitth is a masters-level social worker engaging in community organizing and activism. Faitth works for Be the Bridge as the Director of Programs, she is passionate about anti-racism education.
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Kathryn is a seminary student, writer and advocate. She has ten years of experience in non-profit advocacy and enjoys teaching faith leaders how to engage the political process for the common good and God’s glory. In her spare time, Kathryn writes about the intersection of faith and pop culture. Her work has appeared in Christianity Today, Christ and Pop Culture, The Baptist Standard, The Houston Chronicle, Think Christian, and Austin Woman Magazine.
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Or is there even an after? K.J. Ramsey writes in her book This Too Shall Last, that "this is not a before and after story," because maybe the secret to grief is that we carry it with us as we flow through life.
Maybe the secret is not a secret. It is our bodies, gifted, endowed by God with tools to help us move from alarm to calm and panicked to peaceful. We continue the conversation about ambiguous loss today and talk about how we can move through grief in a way that can form and transform us with therapist, writer, and theologian K.J. Ramsey.
Our full conversation is available only to our partners, and you can join us on the inside here.
Full episode show notes here
Our special thanks as well to Dr. Pauline Boss and Lou Kurtz of the Great Lakes Mental Health Technology Transfer Center Network for letting us use the audio of Dr. Boss speaking.
K.J. Ramsey (BA, Covenant College, MA, Denver Seminary) is a licensed professional counselor and writer. She is the author of This Too Shall Last: Finding Grace When Suffering Lingers , and her writing has been published in Christianity Today, RELEVANT, The Huffington Post, Fathom Magazine, Health Central, and more on the integration of theology, psychology, and spiritual formation. Follow her across social media at @kjramseywrites.
You know when you feel crazy and wonder, "Is it me?" Spoiler alert: IT'S NOT YOU. We invite you to examine these situations to find the unnamed grief that may lie beneath the crazy. Whether it is prolonged singleness, impending divorce, multiple childhood moves, or scheduling a wedding during a pandemic, we all experience losses that have no closure.
We investigate Dr. Pauline Boss' groundbreaking research in ambiguous loss and discover what this has to do with us as we navigate our relationships and life during Covid-19.
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Ahhh the wild world of app dating! We're here to start untangling this way of dating by debunking some myths. Is it safe? How do you know if someone is who they say they are? Is app dating only about sex? And what does one do about the dreaded dick picks? Jess and Coach Leo Tabibzadegan talk about it all.
And if you enjoyed this conversation, there's another 40 minutes of tips and stories on The Jess & Devi Show this week.
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One in three women look at porn, but when it comes to the church, you would think it's only a "male problem." Today we talk about women and porn with our guide, Alice Taylor. We talk about the way porn is kept a shameful secret, what to do when you lapse, and how to find freedom. Share this episode with the women in your life and get those conversations started.
Alice Taylor is a passionate advocate for women struggling with pornography. She is a professional writer and speaker, certified recovery coach and founder of The Grace Spot. She is the author of Restored: A Woman's Guide to Overcoming Pornography and has her own story of overcoming pornography.
Connect with Alice on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube
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*Trigger warning: This episode contains references to sexual assault.
Comedian John Crist made his return to public comedic work last week with an "apology" video. We talk about the allegations levelled against him by five women in November 2019 after which Netflix canceled his special and WaterBrook & Multnomah canceled his book.
We discuss:
How does Purity Culture influence the way we talk about sexual abuse?
What is an abuse of power?
What does a sincere apology look like and how can we make amends when we've done wrong?
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If you wonder what progressive sexual ethics can look like, Matthias Roberts is here to open up the conversation. He speaks to us as a therapist and an author, but he’s also a gay man who grew up in the trenches of evangelical purity culture. This episode is also a great starting point if you want to better understand your LGBTQ+ friends and relatives.
In Ask Us Anything, Jess & Devi talk about The “Purity” Hoax, and address the question: Was Jim and Elisabeth Elliot’s love story real?
Full show notes here
Matthias Roberts is author of Beyond Shame: Creating a Healthy Sex Life on Your Own Terms (Fortress, 2020) and host of Queerology: A Podcast on Belief and Being which was named as one of the “12 Best LGBTQ+ Podcasts of 2020” by O: The Oprah Magazine and the #1 Podcast to Listen to on National Coming Out Day by Radio.com. He holds two master’s degrees, one in theology and culture and one in counseling psychology from The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. In his psychotherapy practice, Matthias specializes in helping LGBTQ+ teens and adults live confident and fulfilling lives. He writes and speaks often about the intersections between gender, sexuality, mental health, and theology.
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Are you tired of viewing the men and women in your life as potential mates or potential sexual temptations? In our sex-crazed world, is the church any different when it comes to male female relationships? Listen in to hear why men and women can be friends, supporters, and partners in building the world.
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Bronwyn Lea has been active for twenty years in vocational ministry, encourage, teach, and mobilize Christians of all ages. A graduate of law school and seminary, she ministers in her local church and also heads up Propel Sophia, the Christian living wisdom resource for Propel Women. Bronwyn is the author of Beyond Awkward Side Hugs: Living as Christian Brothers and Sisters in a Sex-Crazed World.
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Jessica and Devi are taking a 2 week break from releasing regular podcast episodes. We'll be back with more before you know it!
In the mean time, check out our website to catch up on episodes you've missed or become a partner of the show.
Pastor Curtis Allen joined Covenant Life Church in Gaithersberg, Maryland as a young Black man and after he joined the majority white church, he discovered the dating culture to be...different. From the overuse of the "guard her heart" mantra to rooms divided in half with all men on one side and all women on the other side. It was a world saturated in the I Kissed Dating Goodbye courtship methodology.
This conversation was recorded years before the murders of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, and George Floyd and the fresh wave of #blacklivesmatter protests we've seen around the world in the past weeks. But Pastor Curtis Allen's words to us about his experience as a Black man in a majority white church will give us all something to think about. From the ushers who wouldn't give him a program to the weight of having to assimilate, Pastor Allen speaks honestly words that all of us need to hear.
This interview is a departure from our usual format. The audio you hear in this episode is Josh Harris interviewing Pastor Curtis Allen for the documentary I Survived I Kissed Dating Goodbye, a film made by our co-host Jessica Van Der Wyngaard.
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This conversation is for you if you've been single longer than you expected to be or know someone who wrestles with prolonged singelness. Katelyn Beaty gives us a candid glimpse into her journey from Wheaton to New York City, and the way her internal landscape changed from shame to freedom. Katelyn Beaty is author of A Woman's Place: A Christian Vision for Your Calling in the Office, the Home, and the World, and has written on issues of gender, politics, and the church for The New York Times, The Atlantic, The New Yorker, The Washington Post, and more. She previously served as the youngest and first female managing editor of Christianity Today magazine and currently serves as an acquisitions editor with Brazos Press. She lives in New York City and, in non-pandemic times, enjoys karaoke, birdwatching, and travel. Connect with Katelyn on Twitter and find out more at KatelynBeaty.com. Continue the conversation with us on Twitter & Instagram Get episodes of The Jess & Devi Show for $1 or $3USD/month Episode show notes here
Have you ever wanted to sit down with your mom or dad to talk about your life as a teenager? Jess went there. She and her mother, Caren, talk about what life in purity culture was like as a parent - what were the pressures on parents? What's it like to have your daughter publicly talking about yourparenting?
This is a warm but feisty mother daughter conversation that opens up the way parents and children can misunderstand and miscommunicate and why grace is the most relevant ingredient for family relationships.
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Today Lore Ferguson Wilbert is here to re-educate us on platonic touch. Listen in to hear why hugs, back scratches, and welcome platonic touch are a necessary part of being human.
Jess and Devi also get into how touch meant something to them both the good and the bad and what they’ve done in seasons of their lives when there weren’t people around to touch.
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Lore Ferguson Wilbert is a writer, thinker, learner, and author of the book, Handle With Care. She writes for She Reads Truth, Christianity Today, Lifeway, and more, as well as her own site, Sayable. You can find her on Twitter and Instagram. She has a husband named Nate, a puppy named Harper Nelle, and too many books to read in one lifetime.
Ravi Zacharias died on May 19, 2020, and amidst the flood of social media posts saying #thankyouRavi by Christian celebrities like Tim Tebow and ministry leaders like Louie Giglio, there have been the quiet reminders of Zacharias' alleged harassment of a woman in Canada.
This is a meaty episode - not for the theologically faint of heart - as Jess and Devi talk about the Myth of the Christian Hero. Why do we need these famous Christians to be "perfect"? What does it say about us that we even need heroes or a king figure to look up to?
Jess also talks about working with Josh Harris while she was making the documentary I Survived I Kissed Dating Goodbye and the impact of Christian celebrity culture she witnessed around Harris.
(Image of Ravi Zacharias is from Ravi Zacharias International Ministries media kit, image of Josh Harris is a screen grab from I Survived I Kissed Dating Goodbye)
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It's our first episode about queer Christianity, and Jenna De Witt joins us to talk about aromantic asexuality. We talk about what it's been like for her to navigate a church life and secular life that assumes everyone is sexually attracted to someone, and Jenna shares her calling with us for asexual people to know that they aren't alone.
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Jenna DeWitt is an aromantic asexual Methodist. She spent a decade writing and editing in Christian media, and now edits a wide variety of publications from tech support to books to articles to curriculum. She holds a bachelor of arts in journalism from Baylor University. She's originally from a small town near the border of Eastern New Mexico and the West Texas Panhandle, but now she lives in sunny Southern California, where she co-leads the LGBTQIA+ social group at her company. You can read her blog, Invisible Cake Society, and find her on Twitter at @Jenna_DeWitt for more on aromantic asexual advocacy within the church, singleness, mental health, and feminist pop music.
Listen in to this lighthearted chat about Frozen 2 and the evolution of Disney princesses. Yes, we are heading into the unknown with Elsa, Anna, Olaf, and Christoph, but fear not - Elsa's in charge. And if all else fails, Anna will show us how to do the next right thing while Christoph is lost in the woods.
What does Frozen 2 say about women in leadership, male and female relationships, and dealing with our past? Listen now to find out what Jess and Devi think.
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We promised to bring you new tools for the toolkit of your life, and this episode? It's HUGE. Remember how we grew up with the narrative that every time we blew up at someone, the times we felt frustrated in traffic, when we withdrew into ourselves, that all of that was bad because somehow sin was eating us up inside?
Listen to this episode and hear how our body is leading us to truth, to God. Listen to this episode to remind yourself again that your body gives you cues, and those cues are good, an essential way of learning what you need to do, a way of acquiring wisdom. Listen to this episode to remember that God made your body, and it was never supposed to be bypassed by spirituality. Our body is one tool that helps us back to God, and we need our body to understand our sexual selves.
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Our guide today is Aundi Kolber, a licensed professional counselor (MA, LPC), an author, and a speaker living in Castle Rock, Colorado. She has received additional training in her specialization of trauma- and body-centered therapies and is passionate about the integration of faith and psychology. She has written for Relevant, CT Women, and (in)courage. As a survivor of trauma, Aundi brings hard-won knowledge about the work of change, the power of redemption, and the beauty of experiencing God with us in our pain. Her first book Try Softer: A Fresh Approach to Move Us Out of Anxiety, Stress, and Survival Mode--and into a Life of Connection and Joy. You can follow Aundi on Instagram and Twitter
You've heard the reasons why Christian men quit porn, but in continuing this conversation, we wanted to hear from someone outside the evangelical bubble. Coach Leo Tabibzadegan is not a Christian, but he decided to quit porn and masturbation and now coaches other men to do the same.
Leo tells us how he used porn in the past, why he quit, and how quitting impacted his life. We also talk about the ways he coaches men to make similar changes to their lives.
We cover:
- the desire for freedom and connection
- the power of self-improvement messaging
- the way porn desensitizes users
- why self awareness and self regulation are key to recovery
- how Christians separate the mind and the body and how that harms us
Connect with Leo on YouTube, Twitter, and Instagram.
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This episode is for anyone who wants to better understand how pornography impacts evangelicals. We know what we say in public: porn is sin, it leads to destruction, and it harms marriages and families. But we also know evangelical men and women still view porn. Does pornography have unique significance for conservative Protestants? Dr. Samuel Perry, a sociologist, says yes.
He studied pornography in the lives of conservative Protestants in the United States for over four years, and his findings are published in his book Addicted to Lust, which we discuss in this episode.
We cover the following topics:
- the impact of moral incongruence on evangelicals
- how complementarian theology justifies male porn use
- the unique impact of porn on evangelical women
- the difference in how evangelicals handle masturbation and pornography
Samuel L. Perry is an Assistant Professor of Sociology and Religious Studies at the University of Oklahoma. He holds a Ph.D. in Sociology from the University of Chicago and a Th.M. in New Testament Studies from Dallas Theological Seminary. His research explores the changing dynamics of religion, politics, race, sex, and family life in the United States. The author of numerous peer-reviewed articles, Sam has also written three books, one of which is Addicted to Lust: Pornography in the Lives of Conservative Protestants. He has also recently co-authored a book on the rise of Christian nationalism in the US .
You can connect with Sam on Twitter
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If you've heard that men have an innate, not-understandable need for sex, popular author Sheila Gregoire disagrees. She says, "the most deprived people in the bedroom are wives." This episode will show you the way Christian sex books undermine a woman's sexual agency and a woman's sexual needs. There's another way, and we get into it. This episode is for adults only.
We talk about:
- the books Love & Respect and The Act of Marriage
- How husbands can serve their wives
- How women can draw boundaries in their marriage
- What sexual fulfilment really is
- Vaginismus
- Obligation sex messages
- Fundamentalist ideas about sex and marriage
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Are you tired of Christian living books and the simple answers they provide for the problems of life? Dr. Karen Swallow Prior joins us in this episode to talk about the way reading forms us, and how reading better books helps us become better thinkers and better agents of change in our culture and community. This episode is for you if you want to think deeper and need help figuring out what steps should come next.
We talk about:
- The problems with Christian living books
- The difference between information and formation
- What impact does bad reading habits have on reading the Bible
- Tips for what books to read
- Tips for how to read once you get started
For all of Dr. Prior's book recommendations and for the links to her books, go to our full show notes.
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When we ended season 1, who knew that in mid April we would have been mostly at home without the same social structures we were used to? That's why we are starting off with a Covid Catch Up.
How is everyone holding up after a month or more of self isolation and quarantine? We talk about what life is like with minimal touch and minimal social interactions as well as update you on what's happening in our lives.
Lindsey Kaye is figuring out what it means to do what she can, one day at a time.
Devi is digital schooling her kids and getting a second chance at motherhood.
Jess restarted DOCSology and is helping churches move services online, and she's got some big personal news.
Watch this episode here
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This episode is for you if you want to know more about where we are at as a community. We talk about your thoughts on premarital sex, porn, app dating, and same-sex relationships as we wrap up our first season untangling sexual ethics together.
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The finale for Netflix's reality show Love is Blind aired last week, and whether you know who Cameron and Lauren are, whatever you think of Jessica, or if you think reality dating shows are silly, there's something in our conversation for you. Listen in as Jess and Devi talk about what reality TV shows say about our culture when it comes to romance, dating, and marriage. More and more people are watching reality romance, and we ask why.
We talk about what our culture says: You're either not married or you're on your way to marriage. We believe those are false choices. Life is more complex and beautiful than fits into these neat categories. Listen in to hear more.
Later on in the show, we talk about what's coming up in season 2 of our podcast, and we need your help. Devi also shares about how she met her husband and their long-distance relationship pre-Skype.
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Our shortest episode yet, you can hear Jess and Devi talk about two podcast episodes they've recently listened to that helped them think through sexual ethics.Devi recommends Melanated Faith by FaitthB and Kathryn Freeman, specifically Episode 3 Singleness and Purity Culture. But they've got a different angle on the single life as Christian African-American women in the church. It's an insightful (and fun) conversation.Jess recommends Armchair Expert with Bret Weinstein, an American biologist and evolutionary theorist. They talk about the differences between the way men and women experience sex, and there are some fascinating conclusions.
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How do we heal from the traumatic experiences? What are the different kinds of therapies out there? How do we forms supportive communities? These are some of the questions we discuss in this week's episode.
We talk about the different forms of therapy, the differences between counselling for PTSD and complex trauma, why interviewing prospective therapists is a good idea, and phased treatment for survivors of complex trauma.
Listen in to hear Jess and Devi's personal experiences with therapy, EMDR, and prayer ministry. We also talk why forgiveness cannot be rushed and why forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing.
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Dr. Heather Davediuk Gingrich is a counselor, scholar, teacher, and former missionary and a professor of counseling at Denver Seminary. Dr. Gingrich maintains a small private practice working with complex trauma survivors. She began counseling over thirty years ago in Canada, and continued in the Philippines where she counseled, taught, and completed her doctoral studies on complex trauma. She is the author of Restoring the Shattered Self, coauthor of Skills for Effective Counseling, and co-editor and contributor to Treating Trauma in Christian Counseling.
Trigger Warning: This episode contains multiple references to rape, sexual assault, and different forms of abuse and violence.
This episode is for you if you are wanting to understand how purity culture was and can still be traumatizing for some. It's for you if you've experienced trauma - physical, sexual, emotional, spiritual, or other forms - and are seeking a clearer understanding of your experience. It's for you if you desire to be a support for the people in your life for whom trauma is part of their story.
Our conversation covers the broad implications of trauma but also the personal side as we reflect on our own lives and the stories of our listeners. These are the different topics we cover in this conversation:
- what trauma is, and how trauma happens
- the difference between a one-time traumatic event (PTSD) and complex trauma.
- big T trauma, little t trauma, and that trauma is subjective in nature
- sexual assault is about power and control
- we talk about our own desire for control and how our rules and theologies are more about keeping us safe and less about what is actually true.
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Dr. Heather Davediuk Gingrich is a counselor, scholar, teacher, and former missionary and a professor of counseling at Denver Seminary. Dr. Gingrich maintains a small private practice working with complex trauma survivors. She began counseling over thirty years ago in Canada, and continued in the Philippines where she counseled, taught, and completed her doctoral studies on complex trauma. She is the author of Restoring the Shattered Self, coauthor of Skills for Effective Counseling, and co-editor and contributor to Treating Trauma in Christian Counseling.
This episode is for you if you want to learn how to listen and talk to people who suffer. It can be easy to believe that the Christian life will inoculate us against heartbreak; that's certainly what purity culture books implied. Rachel Welcher discusses with us the way her divorce impacted her life, and she says, "Still to this day, people ask me, 'How can I avoid your fate?' and I say, 'You can’t. Suffering is part of the Christian life.'" (We start talking to Rachel at the 10 minute mark.)
Jess and Devi also discuss whether or not we should be preparing unmarried people for divorce the way we prepare them for relationships, and we talk about the way grief is part of the Christian life.
Full episode show notes here.
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"My parents weren't the ones who perpetuated purity culture to me. It was the books, the books, the books. . The reason why it was so damaging to my friends and I is we were reading them in private. I was internalizing these messages without any discernment." That's one way Rachel Welcher took in the messages of purity culture, and now she's writing a book about it.
We talked to her about her research into the purity culture movement, the similarities she found between purity culture and rape culture, the ways in which purity culture dehumanized both men and women, and the impact of studying the Bible thoroughly and in a community. This is part 1 of our conversation with Rachel. Trigger Warning: This episode contains references to sexual abuse, sexual assault and rape.
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Trigger Warning: This episode contains references to sexual abuse, sexual assault, and rape.
"My parents weren't the ones who perpetuated purity culture to me. It was the books, the books, the books. The reason why it was so damaging to my friends and I is we were reading them in private. I was internalizing these messages without any discernment." That's one way Rachel Welcher took in the messages of purity culture, and now she's writing a book about it. In this conversation with Rachel, we talk about the similarities she found between purity culture and rape culture, the ways in which purity culture dehumanized both men and women, and the impact of studying the Bible thoroughly and in a community. This is part 1 of our conversation with Rachel.
Episode show notes here
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Rachel Joy Welcher is an editor for Fathom magazine, and a graduate of the University of St. Andrews in Scotland, where she received her Master of Letters in Bible and the Contemporary World. She is the author of two collections of poetry, Two Funerals, Then Easter and Blue Tarp, and has written for The Gospel Coalition, Mere Orthodoxy, Relevant, and The Englewood Review of Books. Rachel has spent the last few years researching the impact of modern evangelical purity culture on the Church, and her book Talking Back to Purity Culture: Rediscovering Faithful Christian Sexuality is forthcoming from InterVarsity Press in 2020. She currently lives in Glenwood, Iowa, with her husband, Pastor Evan Welcher, and their dog, Frank. You can connect with Rachel on Twitter and Instagram.
Jess, Devi, and Lindsey take your questions and stories in this week's episode and discuss them. What do you do if your married friends don't value your time as a single person? What happens when there's guilt from previous relationships? How do we parent without fear?
Listen in to a candid conversation about all the things.
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This conversation is for you if you've wondered what to do when singleness goes on longer than you were promised. Pastor and teacher Sarah Deutscher joins us for this week's conversation about the sexual prosperity gospel and singleness.
We talk about what the kingdom of God is really like and what beliefs we have to set aside in order to know God. Sarah says to us, "The kingdom of God is an extravagant reality that is at the heart of the gospel and why Jesus came, and we can engage in that reality right now."
Jess and Devi also talk about what it's like to be a single person in the church, and we explore what we can do to reach out to each other. Our thanks to Sarah Deutscher for joining us for this episode of the podcast. Sarah is a pastor and teacher at Red Church in Melbourne, Australia.
Full show notes for the episode here.
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You know that sermon, the one where we were all promised that if we saved sex for marriage not only would we get a (great! godly!) spouse, but also a hot sex life. But what are the consequences of the belief that says, "If I do this then God will give me _____?"
Jess and Devi talk about the impact of believing the Sexual Prosperity Gospel, as writer Katelyn Beaty calls it. What does entitlement do to a relationship? Do we only get what we deserve? Is there a way to hold our lives and our choices with the open hand of gratitude?
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As we uncover more of purity culture's influences, we discuss what cultures have shaped our view on sexuality, marriage and singleness. Biblical culture? Christian culture? Broader culture? Popular culture?
For this discussion we're joined by Fuller Seminary professor and author, Kutter Callaway. He lectures in faith and culture but his expertise in purity culture was galvanised in his must-read book, Breaking the Marriage Idol.
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Chewed up gum. Crumpled roses. Tape that lost its stickiness. We talk about these metaphors from purity culture with Dr. Sean McDowell, and we unpack - were these the best ways to talk about premarital sex? How were they harmful? What are better ways of discussing our sexual choices? And how can we be talking about it with young people today?
Join us for a look back at 80s purity culture and for thoughts on how to move forward.
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