For The Love With Jen Hatmaker Podcast: Recent Episodes
Jen Hatmaker
Welcome to the For the Love Podcast community.
New York Times Bestselling author Jen Hatmaker’s life’s work is to lead and serve women as they genuinely show up for their own lives. In these conversations we need not fear the truth, or hard questions, or spiritual curiosity, or challenging unjust systems; that is literally why we are here, and we’re so glad you’ve joined us.
We believe women living in freedom are the answer to all that ails society. When we are exactly who we are, how we are, where we are, as we were always meant to be, women are the 8th wonders of the world. For the love of all that is good, right, wrong, hard, fun, perplexing, wondrous and thought-provoking, Jen’s here for it all with eye-opening conversations with some of the best people on earth.
Description:
In this Book Club edition of For the Love, Jen sits down with novelist Annie Hartnett to talk about The Road to Tender Hearts — a book Jen calls heart-wrenching, heartwarming, weird, hilarious, and deeply satisfying all at once.
They open with a very funny catch-up from Me Camp, the solo month Jen takes every July. This year she’s in a tiny lake town in Canada, cooking, meeting neighbors, reading on the deck at sunset — and buying blueberries for scones instead of checking her calendar.
From there, Annie traces her path from high-school art major to novelist, and the two teachers whose offhand comments redirected both of their lives. She unpacks the real backstory behind the novel: a Providence rental house that delivered basement floods, gas leaks, black mold, vicious rats, a falling tree, and a neighborhood tragedy — all in 2020 — and the anxiety that followed her to a new town anyway. Her answer was to write down every bad thing she feared could happen to her family, then make it as funny as she possibly could.
Jen and Annie also get into:
- PJ Halliday, built from Annie’s dad and grandfather — lottery dreams, storytelling, lollipop trees and all
- Pancakes the death-predicting cat, inspired by Oscar, a real Rhode Island nursing-home cat
- Why Ivy and Fred keep loving PJ, and what that tells us about him
- How a talking cat in chapter one bought Annie the freedom to go very dark
- Writing grief, addiction, and fear without losing the comedy
- The “year of floundering” that starts every new book
- Why readers mourn whichever character they want, no matter what the author intended
Jen closes by asking what Annie’s reading, and Annie makes a hard case for Lost Lambs by Madeline Cash.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “Life is suffering and joy.” — Pancakes, The Road to Tender Hearts
- “I realized in that class that I could be exactly who I am. I could be weird and I could be really accepted.” — Annie
- “Your words are not wasted. The stuff that you say into our little ears when we are formative and searching can absolutely set me on a path.” — Jen
- “She took my face in her hands and said, Jennifer, you have a gift for words and you should use it.” — Jen
- “I will put every bad thing that I think could happen to my family in a book, but I will make it as funny as possible.” — Annie
- “That’s how I feel like that’s the only way you get through bad things — to talk about them. But also to make them funny.” — Annie
- “I love people despite their flaws, sometimes because of their flaws.” — Annie
- “He has to be loved before he can really… he wants to be in the family.” — Annie, on PJ
- “The year of floundering, when you spend a year just flopping around like a fish out of water.” — Annie
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- The Road to Tender Hearts by Annie Hartnett
- Unlikely Animals and Rabbit Cake by Annie Hartnett
- Lost Lambs by Madeline Cash
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://www.anniehartnett.com/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/annie_hartnett
Newsletter - https://www.anniehartnett.com/newletter
Connect with Jen!
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Description:
Jen is coming to you from the last two days of Me Camp in Canada, eyeballs on the lake, four weeks into having the volume turned down on every channel. And when the static quiets, the truer things rise up. In this me-to-you episode, Jen kicks off August's theme of honesty with the idea at the spine of the whole month: there is the thing we say, and then there is a truer sentence sitting an inch underneath it. And usually one inch under that.
Jen shares what her own silence cost in the last years of her marriage, names the difference between truth-telling and truth-throwing, and offers the gentlest possible place to begin: one true sentence, one page, just between you and you.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “Staying quiet only masquerades as keeping the peace. We are genuinely just deferring the bill.”
- “It doesn't disappear just because we're not willing to look it in the eye. It just goes underground, but it charges interest.”
- “So here I am thinking I'm protecting this marriage, protecting the kids — and I was actually helping to sink the ship.”
- “My body was absolutely telling the truth. Maybe my mouth wasn't, but my body was.”
- “There is a difference between truth telling and truth throwing.”
- “Honest is not the same thing as "unfiltered." Honest and kind are not opposites.”
- “You are not too much, and your real self is not an inconvenience.”
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- The AWAKE Collective, the monthly live gathering where this conversation started, included with a paid subscription to Jen’s Substack: jenhatmaker.substack.com
- Letters from the Middle, Jen’s Substack, where the honesty conversation continues all month: jenhatmaker.substack.com
- Tell us your story — head to jenhatmaker.com/podcast, look for the Send Voicemail button, and tell Jen the quiet thing you finally said out loud (or the one you’re working up to).
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Substack - https://jenhatmaker.substack.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker
Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker
Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker
The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.
Description:
Some yeses cost us something. Some of them save us.
Jen sits down with her partner, actor, author, and speaker Tyler Merritt, hours after his chemotherapy infusion. Tyler is midway through treatment for colorectal cancer, his second diagnosis in six years, and the two get honest about making thoughtful decisions when your body is calling every shot.
They talk about the yes Tyler gave in the middle of radiation: booking a brand-new theater tour that opens seventeen days after his last chemo, a yes he says he "arguably shouldn't have" given, made so he'd have something beautiful to walk toward. Jen turns the lens on her own year and the yes she almost took back: getting on the plane to Me Camp after a hysterectomy, a brutal spring, and a boyfriend in chemo two thousand miles away.
Tyler also flips the mic and asks Jen whether she regrets writing AWAKE. Her answer is about closure, discretion, and the two longest weeks of her life waiting to hear what her daughter thought of the book.
Plus: how to tell your intuition from everybody else's fear, Jen's top three Me Camp TV experiences, one Enneagram argument, and the one yes Tyler is still too scared to say out loud.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- "There is something absolutely sacred in choosing your body in a time period where it may not be convenient." — Tyler
- "Rest is the thing that I choose. Rest is my sacred yes." — Tyler
- "It's not a yes that feels obligated. It's not coerced. It isn't even careless. It's thoughtful. It is baked in with wisdom." — Jen
- "In the midst of the fire, I made the decision to do something that would be difficult if I was just healthy." — Tyler
- "When someone else puts their caution on your yes, that can be a real governor on forward progress." — Jen
- "The sacred yes I'm afraid to say out loud is that I'm going to be okay." — Tyler
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- AWAKE by Jen Hatmaker
- I Take My Coffee Black by Tyler Merritt
- Tyler's new theater tour, opening August 28
- Me Camp, the Enneagram, and Jeremy Pope
- John Candy: I Like Me, Widows Bay, The Bear, The Five-Star Weekend
Guest's Links:
Website - thetylermerrittproject.com
Instagram - @thetylermerrittproject
Twitter - @TTMProject
Facebook - The Tyler Merritt Project
Youtube - The Tyler Merritt Project
Connect with Jen! Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker Jen's Twitter -
In our Sacred Yes series, we've explored what it means to choose courage, curiosity, and joy in the second half of life. Who better to join than the woman who quietly taught Jen those lessons from the beginning?
In this deeply personal episode, Jen calls home from MeCamp to check in with her mom, Jana. Jana was originally supposed to be lakeside in Ontario with Jen this week—until Jen's dad, Larry, discovered that Jana's passport had expired back in April. Instead of catching up by the water, mother and daughter connected remotely. Thankfully, they hit record so we could all benefit from Jana's wisdom.
This warm, funny, generation-spanning conversation explores the stories, fears, and freedoms we inherit. Jana reflects on growing up in the '50s and '60s, the cultural scripts that told young women they couldn't quite "make it" on their own, and how her own mother—who died when Jana was just 33—refused to let her carry fear. Jen and Jana trace how that fearlessness rolled down through the family, for better and occasionally for worse.
Jana shares insights from 55 years of marriage and raising four resilient children in a home where faith was central and failure was never a dealbreaker. She also discusses her decades as an educator and the joy of discovering new passions after retirement—including the "yeses" she's given herself lately, from traveling with her best friend to opening her own bank account (so she never has to explain a $78 lunch again!).
Whether you're navigating an empty nest, caring for aging parents, rebuilding after loss, or wondering what this next chapter holds, this conversation offers the gentle mentoring so many of us wish we could still receive from our own mothers. Because the greatest gift a parent can give isn't certainty—it's the confidence to believe that no matter what happens, you can always get back up and begin again.
Thought-Provoking Quotes:
- "Everybody's been on the ground. Everybody screws up… But while you live with the consequences, you can still just get back up. That doesn't need to define you." — Jana King
- "We built a solid foundation on faith, but mostly we built it on just loving our kids and giving them a safe harbor." — Jana King
- "Even if you weren't given that privilege of unconditional love, that doesn't need to define you. You can still step out and be brave." — Jana King
Resources Mentioned:
- Moonshine Grill (Austin, TX) & Kinfolk Cocktail Lounge
- Community First! Village (Jana's post-retirement library project)
- Good Hang with Amy Poehler Podcast
- Awake Season Quiz
Connect with Jen!
Website - Instagram - Twitter - Facebook - YouTube
The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.
There’s a lot of dopey financial advice out there. Jill Schlesinger is here to call it out, answer your questions, break down the financial news that actually matters, and help you manage your money without losing your mind. No jargon. No judgment. Just clear, actionable financial guidance about saving, investing, buying a home, managing your career, and deciding how to spend your hard-earned dollars. When it’s time to panic, Jill will tell you. When everyone else is panicking and you shouldn’t be, Jill will tell you that too. Your money. Your move. Let’s go.
Description:
What if your biggest breakthrough hasn't happened yet?
In this joyful and deeply encouraging conversation, Jen sits down with comedian, author, actress, and beloved storyteller Leanne Morgan to talk about dreams, disappointment, perseverance, and the surprising possibilities waiting for us in midlife.
As part of our Sacred Yes: Reclaiming Joy in Midlife series, we're bringing back one of our most-loved episodes because Leanne's story embodies everything this season is about: saying yes to possibility, trusting your own timeline, and refusing to believe that life's best chapters belong exclusively to youth.
Before sold-out tours, bestselling books, Netflix specials, and national recognition, Leanne spent decades raising children, caring for family, performing in comedy clubs, and quietly holding onto a dream that seemed increasingly unlikely. Then, in her fifties, everything changed.
With her trademark humor and warmth, Leanne shares what it was like to keep showing up long after many people would have given up. She reflects on motherhood, caregiving, marriage, becoming a grandmother, and the surprising freedom that comes with getting older.
Most of all, she reminds us that there is no expiration date on becoming who we're meant to be.
Over this delightful hour, Leanne will regale you with charming hard-won life lessons including:
● Why success arriving later can be a gift● The power of perseverance through disappointment● The balancing act of holding dreams, caregiving, and family life all with care● How humor helps us survive hard seasons● Why comparison is a thief of joy● The freedom that comes with embracing your own timeline● What it means to trust that what's meant for you won't miss you
If you've ever wondered whether you've missed your chance, whether it's too late to pivot, or whether your most joyful years are already behind you, Leanne has a message for you:
You are not behind. You are not too late. Your story is still unfolding.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
★ "I always just knew it was going to happen... I knew there were people out there going through the same thing I'm going through. I just didn't know how to reach them." — Leanne Morgan ★ "I really try to be present and enjoy it, because what a gift after all these years. It's just like icing on the cake, really." — Leanne Morgan ★ "I hope they take away: use humor to get you through hard times. I think it's the best thing that could ever happen to anybody, to be able to laugh through the bad times." — Leanne Morgan ★ "I've got to be me. I've got to do what I've got to do. If y'all love me or if you don't, it's okay." — Leanne Morgan
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
➢ What in the World?!: A Southern Woman's Guide to Laughing at Life's Unexpected Curveballs by Leanne Morgan - https://www.leannemorgan.com/book➢ I'm Every Woman (Netflix Special) - https://www.netflix.com/title/81688708➢ You're Cordially Invited (Amazon MGM Studios) - https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B0D9WF53QX➢
Dinner With Strangers: Jess Janz On The Friends We Haven't Met Yet
We're more connected than ever—and lonelier than we'd like to admit. What if the answer isn't finding the right people, but simply pulling up another chair?
This week, Jen sits down with writer, poet, and community-builder Jess Janz to talk about her new book, The Table Where We Meet, and the social experiment that grew into the phenomenon known as Dinner With Strangers. What began as a gathering around a table with a few curious questions has now welcomed more than a thousand people into conversations that move past small talk and into the territory we all secretly long for: belonging.
Jen and Jess explore why so many of us feel disconnected, what makes a question powerful enough to crack a person open, and how vulnerability creates the conditions for genuine connection. Whether you're craving deeper friendships, navigating loneliness, or wondering how to build a bigger table in your own life, this conversation is a hopeful reminder that meaningful connection is still possible—and closer than you think.
In this episode, you'll hear:
- The hidden costs of loneliness and our growing hunger for belonging
- Why "What's your favorite movie?" might be the wrong icebreaker—and what to ask instead
- What happens when one person chooses vulnerability first
- Why community isn't something we stumble into—it's something we create
Quotes:
- "There's alchemy in holding a heavy dish for the person beside you, reaching across, filling water glasses. All of that is so disarming. It shouldn't be a roadblock to connection—it should be the bridge." – Jess Janz
- "Loneliness and helplessness is something that is weaponized in our lives right now, and so it's radical to be in community together." – Jess Janz
Resources Mentioned:
- The Table Where We Meet by Jess Janz
- With Strangers
- Jen's dinner party for her daughter
- Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker
- Dan Mangan
- Buy Jess' book
Guest's Links:
Website | Instagram | Facebook | TikTok | Substack
Connect with Jen!
Website | Instagram | Twitter | Facebook | YouTube
The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.
Every summer, Jen heads off on her annual Me Camp, a month dedicated to stepping away from the noise to reconnect with herself. But this year, Me Camp isn't a tradition or a luxury. It's an act of survival.
In the wake of major surgery, while carrying the weight of parenting adult children, navigating family crises, supporting loved ones through illness, and trying to hold together a life once built for two people, Jen found herself physically, emotionally, and mentally depleted. She almost didn't go.
In this deeply personal solo episode, Jen shares what finally convinced her to leave anyway, why asking for help has become one of the hardest and holiest lessons of this season, and what she's learning about the difference between escaping your life and stepping away long enough to return to it whole.
If you're the dependable one, the fixer, the person everyone calls in a crisis, this conversation is a gentle but urgent invitation. Loosen your grip. Let people show up for you. Remember that rest isn't a reward for finishing the work. Sometimes it's the very thing that makes it possible to keep going.
In this episode, Jen explores:
- What happens when life outpaces your capacity
- Why asking for help feels so uncomfortable, especially for capable people
- The hidden cost of believing you're indispensable
- How codependency can disguise itself as responsibility
- Why retreat can be an act of courage, not avoidance
- The simple invitation to "choose the lake chair anyway"
Whether you're recovering from something visible or carrying burdens no one else can see, this episode offers permission to stop white-knuckling your way through life, receive the care that's available to you, and trust that stepping away can be the very thing that helps you step back in with renewed strength.
Thought-Provoking Quotes:
"I have managed and been the troubleshooter, the point person, the heavy lifter, the anchor, the decider of so much in the last few months by myself. And some of it is absolutely consequential. Huge, huge things. And all of it just outpaced me." – Jen Hatmaker
"I think those of us who struggle to ask for help have some brutal combination of pride (the bad kind) and a false sense of self-sufficiency, and this is somehow wrapped up in how people think of us. Do they think of me as needy? Do they think of me as irresponsible?" – Jen Hatmaker
"I'm gonna treat rest like it's sacred, as opposed to the go, go, go adventure energy I normally have." – Jen Hatmaker
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Sacred Yes: Reclaiming Joy in Midlife Starts Here - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/sacred-yes-reclaiming-joy-in-midlife-starts-here/
- Jen's first cookbook, Feed These People: Slam-Dunk Recipes for Your Crew - https://amzn.to/3R1P0ps
- Jen's Substack - https://jenhatmaker.substack.com/
- The Awake Collective - https://jenhatmaker.substack.com/p/the-awake-collective
Connect with Jen!
Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ | Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker | Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ | Facebook -
Description: Three years ago, Katherine May gave us a language for something many of us experience but rarely know how to name: wintering. Those seasons of life when everything slows down. When grief arrives. When burnout catches up with us. When illness, loss, caregiving, parenting challenges, or unexpected change force us to stop and reconsider how we're living. As part of our Sacred Yes: Reclaiming Joy in Midlife series, we're revisiting this unforgettable conversation because Katherine's wisdom feels even more relevant today than it did when it first aired. Together, Jen and Katherine explore what it means to stop treating ourselves like machines and start honoring our humanity. They discuss the value of retreat, the necessity of rest, and why healing cannot be rushed. Katherine challenges the cultural pressure to push through difficult seasons and instead invites us to trust that growth is still happening beneath the surface—even when life appears dormant. Nestled in this conversation is a gentle reminder that joy isn't always found by adding more. Sometimes it emerges when we create space. Space for solitude. Space for beauty. Space to notice what's growing quietly within us. If you've been feeling weary, stretched thin, or ready to step off the hamster wheel for a moment, this episode offers a different path forward—one marked by grace, patience, and the courage to rest before collapse forces it upon us. In this very gentle and generous conversation, you’ll hear:
- Why every life includes seasons of "wintering"
- The difference between retreat and isolation
- How beauty sustains us during difficult seasons
- Why sadness isn't something to fix
- Practical ways to create restorative space in everyday life
- What it means to trust the season you're in Sometimes the most sacred yes isn't a leap forward. It's permission to pause. Thought-provoking Quotes:
- "You can trust this space, and you can trust your sadness. It's telling you something. You don't have to run away from it. You can be sad. You can handle being sad. What you can't handle is pretending not to be sad and being sad anyway." — Katherine May
- "There is a process of healing, and it's also a process of change. Those things will take a certain amount of time whatever you do. You are not doing anything wrong if you're still suffering a week later, a month later, or six months later." — Katherine May
- "If you can lean into that space and accept it rather than fight it, you will spare yourself a lot of pain." — Katherine May
- "People who've gone through major winters always seem to look back and say, 'I wouldn't have not gone through it if it meant I couldn't be who I am now.'" — Katherine May
- "Look for beauty in that space. Reacquaint yourself with your gut feeling that leads you toward what you find beautiful and awe-inspiring." — Katherine May Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Wintering: The Power of Rest and Retreat in Difficult Times by Katherine May - https://katherine-may.co.uk/books/wintering/
- Enchantment: Awakening Wonder in an Anxious Age by Katherine May - https://katherine-may.co.uk/books/enchantment/
- [The Sea, The Sea by Iris Murdoch](
Description:
In this deeply personal solo episode, Jen takes us to the place where this journey began: Me Camp. What started as a spontaneous trip to coastal Maine during one of the hardest seasons of her life became an annual practice of restoration, adventure, healing, and joy. Six summers later, as she arrives in a tiny lakeside town in Ontario for another month of Me Camp, she's reflecting on the small word that changed everything: yes.
This month, we'll be exploring what it means to reclaim joy, embrace rest, honor our desires, and create lives that are not just productive—but deeply satisfying.
It's time to discover your own Sacred Yes.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “MeCamp changed my life. I’m not being demonstrative or exaggerating. It's where the ‘Sacred Yes’ got its first footing.” – Jen Hatmaker
- “I keep my heart open to whatever's possible. Who could I meet? What could I experience? Where could I go? What can I see? And when people are like, hey, do you wanna…? The answer's yes. And so that sacred yes got sort of imprinted on my heart.” – Jen Hatmaker
- “I feel the weight of irresponsible yeses that should have been no's.” – Jen Hatmaker
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- MeCamp 2026 Announcement -
- Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4xzBo5n
- Jen’s Substack - https://jenhatmaker.substack.com/
- Join the Awake Collective - https://jenhatmaker.substack.com/p/the-awake-collective
- Jen Hatmaker Book Club - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/collections/book-club
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker
Jen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker
Jen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker
The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.
Description: As part of our Freedom & Flourishing series this Pride Month, we're revisiting the most downloaded episode in the history of For the Love—a conversation that has continued to ripple through families, friendships, and faith communities for years after it first aired.
Six years ago, Jen sat down with her daughter Sydney to hand her the microphone and invite her to tell her own story in her own words. What followed was a brave, tender, and deeply honest conversation about growing up gay in the church, loving Jesus while feeling afraid and alone, and finding the courage to embrace the fullness of who you are.
Sydney shares what it was like to navigate faith and identity as a young person, the messages she received from churches and Christian leaders, and the real impact those messages have on LGBTQIA+ kids sitting quietly in pews every Sunday. Together, Jen and Sydney discuss what true allyship requires, why affirmation matters, and how we can create homes, communities, and faith spaces where people are cherished exactly as they are.
In this episode:
- Sydney shares her journey of growing up gay within a Christian family and faith community
- A candid conversation about faith, identity, and belonging
- What churches and Christian leaders need to understand about LGBTQIA+ youth
- Why allyship requires more than acceptance—it requires action
- A call to advocate for and protect transgender people, who often face the greatest vulnerability
- How creating safe, welcoming spaces helps all people flourish
Content Note: This episode includes discussion of the mental health challenges, isolation, and discrimination often experienced by LGBTQIA+ youth.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- "I was just scared, and alone. And I wanted to have it all. I wanted to have my family, and God, and my future. And I didn't think I'd be able to have it all." — Sydney Hatmaker
- "It doesn't matter how loving you are, or what emphasis on Scripture you come with. That's not enough if you're not fully accepting them as children of God." — Sydney Hatmaker
- "The biggest act of allyship you can make is using your voice in places where marginalized people feel less safe." — Sydney Hatmaker
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- This Is How It Always Is by Laurie Frankel — https://www.lauriefrankel.net/this-is-how-it-always-is.html
- Human Rights Campaign LGBTQ+ Youth Research — https://www.thehrcfoundation.org/reports/collections/youth-report-collection
- HRC & University of Connecticut LGBTQ+ Youth Study — https://reports.hrc.org/2023-lgbtq-youth-report
Connect with Jen!
Website: https://jenhatmaker.com/
Instagram: https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Facebook: https://facebook.com/jenhatmaker
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker
The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.
Description:
For 15 years, Tim Schraeder Rodriguez quietly shaped the digital face of some of the biggest names in evangelical Christianity — Willow Creek, Hillsong, Elevation — helping mega-churches reach millions with a message of radical welcome. The painful irony? He was living proof of their unspoken rules. Useful in the shadows. Unacceptable in the light.
In this conversation, Tim joins Jen and Amy to talk about his new memoir, Conversion Therapy Dropout, and the full arc of his story: growing up adopted with a sense of "anxious apartness," signing the purity pledge as a kid who already knew he was gay, eight years in the loosely-held and deeply damaging world of conversion therapy, and eventually a breaking point that brought him to his knees — and then, slowly, to himself.
Today, the conversation swirls around what conversion therapy actually looks like from the inside (football coaches, Mary Kay consultants, and all), the complicated grief of leaving a community that was also your career and your family, how the Pulse Orlando shooting became Tim's personal line in the sand, and what it took to find his way back to faith — this time, in church basements with other sober queer people finding a God of their own understanding.
They also get into the current state of conversion therapy in America, why it's more active and accessible than most people realize, and what the rest of us — regular people who just live on their street and go to their jobs — can actually do about it.
This one is hard and beautiful and hopeful. Don't miss it.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
★ "I was living proof of their unspoken rules. I was useful in the shadows, but unacceptable in the light." – Tim Schraeder Rodriguez★ "It really kind of disintegrates you in body, mind and spirit because you're acting and being something and someone that you're not." – Tim Schraeder Rodriguez★ "Freedom wasn't finally becoming who they said I was supposed to be, but finally embracing who I believe God created me to be." – Tim Schraeder Rodriguez★ "More transformation was happening in church basements than was ever happening upstairs." – Tim Schraeder Rodriguez★ "I finally feel like I'm living from a place of honesty and truth. I sense and feel God's presence with me today now more as an openly gay man than I ever did in the years I was in conversion therapy." – Tim Schraeder Rodriguez
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
➢ Dissenting Harmony - Amy’s Rage Choir - https://dissentingharmony.betterworld.org/➢ Conversion Therapy Dropout: A Queer Story of Faith and Belonging by Timothy Schraeder Rodriguez - https://amzn.to/48smCCv➢ Conversion Therapy Dropout audiobook - https://amzn.to/3OZULmD➢ Exodus International - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_International➢ The Trevor Project — thetrevorproject.org➢ ...
Description:
As we celebrate Juneteenth, Jen sits down with writer, activist, theologian, and longtime friend Lisa Sharon Harper for a conversation that’s equal parts history lesson, spiritual challenge, and call to action. Together, they explore the often-overlooked story of Juneteenth—not just the delayed news of emancipation in Texas, but the deeper history of freedom promised, denied, and fought for across generations.
Fresh from a powerful march across Selma’s Edmund Pettus Bridge, Lisa reflects on what it means to stand in the footsteps of civil rights heroes while confronting the realities of the present moment. Drawing from her own family’s legacy of resistance, she shares why her hope no longer rests in institutions, laws, or political systems, but in ordinary people willing to bend the arc of history toward justice.
The conversation moves from the unfinished work of voting rights to the spiritual courage required for this cultural moment. As Lisa puts it, perhaps our task is not simply to recover what has been lost, but to become “the architects of the next America.”
Whether you’re marking Juneteenth, wrestling with questions about democracy and belonging, or searching for hope in uncertain times, this conversation is a timely reminder that freedom has always depended on people willing to imagine—and build—something better.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
★ “The Supreme Court has effectively placed us back into the time of Plessy vs Ferguson, which said separate and equal is okay, the time of even Dred Scott, which says a black man has no rights that a white man need abide by. That’s what they’re gunning for.”
★ In the past, my hope was in the law. In the past, my hope was in the dream of America. My hope was in the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights. My hope was in the church. But what I’m learning is that the arc of the moral universe has bent toward justice because people have bent it.”
★ “What can they do to us? What can they do? They can put us in jail. God is there. They can deport us. God will be there. They can kill us. And God will be there. So what can they do? They can't do anything to us. Not really.”
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
➢ (The Gospel of Shalom) Unequally Saved: The Church’s Role in Racism with Lisa Sharon Harper - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-08/unequally-saved-the-churchs-role-in-racism-with-lisa-sharon-harper/
➢ Fortune: How Race Broke My Family and the World--and How to Repair It All by Lisa Sharon Harper - https://amzn.to/43LTXW1
➢ “All Roads Lead To The South” Rally - https://blackpowerwarroom.com/dayofaction/
➢ A Resistance History of the United States by Tad Stoermer - https://amzn.to/4dK3RNS
➢ Amazing Grace | William Wilberforce film - https ...
Description:It's Pride Month, and we couldn't think of a better time to bring back one of our most beloved episodes. Sara Cunningham — founder of Free Mom Hugs — first joined Jen back in 2018, when she was a Christian mom from Oklahoma City who had just started showing up at Pride parades with a handmade sign and a button. A lot has happened since then.
What began as one mom extending her arms to strangers has grown into a global movement. Free Mom Hugs now trains advocates, lobbies legislatures, and shows up year after year for LGBTQIA+ people whose own families walked away. Sara hasn't just built an organization — she's built a lifeline.
In this conversation, Sara and Jen revisit the journey that started it all: how Sara moved from the church to the Pride parade without losing her faith, what it meant for her son Parker to come out into a family still finding its footing, and how the stories of people who had lost everything — their families, their churches, their sense of belonging — fell into her arms and changed the course of her life.
They also talk about what it takes to turn personal pain into structural change, and why showing up — physically, politically, and relationally — for the LGBTQIA+ community matters more than ever right now.
This one is worth every minute. Enjoy this encore conversation with our beloved friend, Sara Cunningham!
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “No one has searched for God more than the Gay Christian.” – Sara Cunningham
- “The first drag show that I ever went to, when I crossed the threshold, I really thought lightning might strike. But, I realized these are beautiful people raising money for homeless LGBTQ youth. And I was so moved by that. I had it totally wrong. I believed a lie that kept me from some of the most beautiful experiences I’ve had in my life.” – Sara Cunningham
- “I remember there was a time, at the beginning of that journey, I call from the church to the pride parade. It was like reality was setting in. The bubble that I was in, the evangelical conservative mainstream bubble that I was in where everyone looked like me and talked like me, had just shattered. And I wanted to take a banner and put it outside of my house on the front door, like, welcome to the real world. And suddenly it's like my eyes are truly open.” - Sara Cunningham
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- LGBTQIA MeCourse - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/products/parenting-lgbtqia-teens-tweens
- Mama Bears - https://www.realmamabears.org/
- FTL Episode ft. Sydney Hatmaker - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spring-back-series-living-proudly-with-sydney-hatmaker/id1258388821?i=1000523761007
- Kai Shappley’s Website - https://kaishappley.com/
- Free Mom Hugs Revolution Conference - https://freemomhugs.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Page.ViewPage&pageId=571
- Kimberly Shappley’s Website - ...
Description:If you grew up on Christian music in the '90s, there's a good chance Testify to Love wasn't just a hit song—it was the soundtrack to a season of your life.
Three decades after Avalon first released the iconic anthem, Jen sits down with original Avalon member Michael Passons, longtime Avalon vocalist Melissa Greene, and country music star Ty Herndon to talk about the remarkable re-release of a song that has found new meaning for a new generation.
But this isn't simply a conversation about music. It's the untold story behind one of CCM's most beloved songs.
Michael shares the painful reality of losing his place in Avalon after coming out as gay. Melissa reflects on the faith journey that transformed her understanding of inclusion and belonging. Ty opens up about his own path through addiction, recovery, faith, and finally living fully and truthfully as himself. Together, they revisit the song that connected millions of listeners and explore why its message of love, acceptance, and human dignity feels more relevant now than ever.
Filled with laughter, tears, hard-earned wisdom, and more than a few moments that will leave you reaching for the tissues, this conversation is a beautiful testament to friendship, healing, and the courage it takes to live loud.
Whether Testify to Love has been on your playlist for thirty years or you're hearing its story for the first time, this episode is a powerful reminder that love's truest testimony is not who it excludes—but who it embraces.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “I lost my community, my family, my career, all within a couple of seconds. That’s a lot to process.” - Michael Passons
- "The people I loved and the fullness of their humanity butted up against my theological positions. I had to ask myself: Do I keep creating fences and becoming more exclusive? Or could it be that my views of God, humanity, and the world need to change?" – Melissa Greene
- "What I've noticed in the lives of people who have allowed themselves to evolve and change their mind is that that process pulls us toward an expansiveness that is just magical." - Jen Hatmaker
- “You don't live in the church, the church lives in you. You have an opportunity right now to start your own church and decide who sits at your table. No one can kick you out of your own church.” - Ty Herndon
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Avalon - https://www.avalonthegroup.com/
- Carman - https://carman.org/
- Stephen Curtis Chapman - https://store.stevencurtischapman.com/
- Kirk Franklin - https://kirkfranklin.com/
- Michael’s Instagram Reel - https://www.instagram.com/reels/DY6_JF6BDyO/
- Dottie Rambo - https://www.dottierambo.net/
- Testify to Love - https://music.apple.com/us/song/testify-to-love-feat-melissa-greene/1893435396
- Testify to Love video ...
We were supposed to talk about Deacon King Kong. We did not.
When Jen sat down with Pulitzer Prize-winning novelist James McBride to discuss the Jen Hatmaker Book Club's May selection, the conversation took a hard left turn into something far richer — a wide-ranging tour through one of the most remarkable lives in American letters.
James opens up about a scrappy and troubled adolescence in Brooklyn, getting straightened out in the heat of the Louisville, Kentucky summers, and the music that quite literally saved him. He reminisces about touring Europe as a young musician and playing saxophone alongside Stevie Ray Vaughan at Antone's in Austin, traveling with Michael Jackson on the Victory Tour as a young journalist, surviving the Boston Globe's newsroom in the 1980s, writing songs for Anita Baker and Grover Washington, working with Quincy Jones, and getting dressed down by Harry Belafonte in a writers' room. Along the way, he reflects on race, art, faith, forgiveness, music, storytelling, old cars, and why the best writers are simply the people paying closest attention. He also shares what gives him hope about America right now — and it might surprise you.
Of course, we touch on Deacon King Kong—its unforgettable characters, humor, and heart—but this conversation became something even bigger: a portrait of the life experiences that shaped the storyteller behind the book.
Come for the book club discussion. Stay for one of the most fascinating conversations Jen has had in a long time.
Oh, and Deacon King Kong is a masterpiece. You should absolutely read it.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://www.jamesmcbride.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jamesmcbrideauthor/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/JamesMcBrideAuthor/
Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker
The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.
★ “I didn’t grow up wanting to be a writer. We were just concerned about eating.” – James McBride★ “Years and years of playing $50, $75, $100 gigs prepares you for a life of good struggle.” – James McBride★ “People are trying to do their best. Just because you don’t agree with them, it doesn’t mean they’re not trying to do their best.” – James McBride★ “We have work to do and I'm proud of those of us who are doing it. And for those of us who are not, maybe their children will come to it or maybe they won't. The struggle is a beautiful thing.” – James McBride➢ Miracle at St. Anna (Spike Lee movie) - https://www.jamesmcbride.com/miracle-at-st-anna/➢ The Good Lord Bird: A Novel by James McBride - https://amzn.to/4eJBPDc➢ The Heaven & Earth Grocery Store: A Novel by James McBride - https://amzn.to/4d74l0a➢ Deacon King Kong: A Novel by James McBride - https://amzn.to/4uLm4QP➢
Description:He's back — and this time he brought a memoir. Comedian Kevin James Thornton returns to For the Love, and if you thought you knew Kevin from his hilarious auto-tuned TikToks and wired-headphone microphone bits, this conversation will lovingly surprise you.
Kevin's debut memoir, Big Baby: On Endings, Beginnings, and an Interdimensional Cat, traces his journey from performing as a literal sin clown on a youth group mission trip in 1990s New York City, to grinding it out on the stand-up circuit in LA, to touring one-man shows across the US, Canada, and eventually the world — Helsinki, Stockholm, Paris — all the way to present-day Cincinnati, where he's navigating a major life upheaval with nothing but his 13-pound black cat Comet and an extraordinary amount of hard-won self-awareness.
In this conversation, Kevin opens up about what it actually took to write a book — including the two-week-long Airbnb retreat where he mostly just slept and watched TV because his attention span had been completely obliterated — and what surprised him most about recording the audiobook (hint: he cried, more than once, and they left it in). He talks about the strange, freeing moment he realized he no longer needed to prove himself to anyone, and how that shift was the very thing that made his work finally land. And he reflects on the beautiful, sometimes maddening truth that life doesn't end so much as it just keeps beginning again.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- "Even when I was living in my car, I was still dreaming about the next creative project...I was like that when I was 20. And I'm like that today." – Kevin James Thornton
- "I didn't realize that I went out into the world constantly trying to prove myself, that I was someone without Jesus. I didn't know that's what I was doing. I can see it so clearly looking backward now." – Kevin James Thornton
- "We sort of hand over this personal power to other people. It takes a long time to recognize and unlearn that." – Kevin James Thornton
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Brick - https://getbrick.com
- Jen’s Substack - https://jenhatmaker.substack.com/
- Sarah Bessey’s Substack - https://sarahbessey.substack.com/
- Big Baby: On Endings, Beginnings, and an Interdimensional Cat by Kevin James Thornton - https://amzn.to/4mVYPAJ
- Laughing Toward The Light: Comedian James Thornton Finds Himself at 50 - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-55/laughing-toward-the-light-comedian-james-thornton-finds-himself-at-50/
- Create with Kevin (watercolor videos) - https://www.instagram.com/reel/DX-UksfK1pG/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Recorded live from the Oregon coast on the final day of MeCamp, this special two-part conversation between Jen and her partner Tyler Merritt is the perfect blend of hilarity, heart, and honesty.
In Part 1, Jen and Tyler share stories from their MeCamp adventures — including a whale-watching excursion that got a little too close for comfort, and a near-death boat ride they’ll never forget. They also reflect on the power of personal storytelling, how vulnerability has shown up in their lives and work, and why telling the truth (even when it’s awkward) can be both healing and hilarious.
Discussing the impact of Tyler's viral video "Before You Call the Cops" to Jen's reflections on her upcoming book "Awake," this conversation reveals the transformative potential of embracing vulnerability. Tune in to discover how opening up about our most personal stories can not only heal us but also inspire others to see themselves in our narratives.
- Tyler talks about the most awkward moment he’s ever had because he opted to be vulnerable and honest instead of protecting his pride
- He and Jen discuss the hardest truths they’ve ever had to tell themselves
- And Tyler goes back into the annals to reveal his most embarrassing moment as a performer on stage
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “The spirit of MeCamp almost got us killed.”– Tyler Merritt
- “One of the hardest things that I had to deal with telling myself is that it's okay to forgive yourself and to move forward. You deserve things in life, although maybe you haven't been the best person at times.”– Tyler Merritt
- “I'm aware that it's not every day that most people see a six foot two black man with dreadlocks crying in real life. I have never regretted a single moment in my life of being transparent about how I feel emotionally with somebody. Vulnerability has never kicked back at me in a negative way.”– Tyler Merritt
- “I think vulnerability begets vulnerability. Because I was saying who I am and I was allowing myself to be open to the world, the world was willing to take that. What it did within the black community is it allowed a lot of other black people to begin making their own videos going, before you call the cops, I just want you to know this about me. So it opened up a door of vulnerability that really allowed that to kind of echo.”– Tyler Merritt
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Depoe Bay, Oregon – https://visittheoregoncoast.com/cities/depoe-bay/
- Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/40MYuXs
- Jen shares the first line from Awake – https://www.instagram.com/reel/DMrDdj4sCaQ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=ZzdzZGdvM3h5Mmd6
- This Changes Everything: A Surprisingly Funny Story About Race, Cancer, Faith, and Other Things We Don’t Talk About by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/4m135Oj
- Brené Brown – https://brenebrown.com/
- Before You Call The Cops by The Tyler Merritt Project – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGu_xGBekpo
- I Take My Coffee Black: Reflections on Tupac, Musical Theater, Faith, and Being Black in America by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/47by9Gf
- Luna S ...
Every family has its legends, the stories told and retold until they become gospel. Family Lore is a new weekly podcast that revisits those tales with curiosity, digging into the history behind each one to uncover what's true, what's myth, and what it all means. Enjoy this preview, then catch full episodes wherever you listen: https://link.pscrb.fm/f0281/FLFD
Description:There are some books you read with your whole body. Strangers by Belle Burden is one of those books.
Belle was married for twenty-one years. Three kids. A life that, from the outside, looked like everything you're supposed to want. Then on the seventh day of the pandemic lockdown, a stranger left her a voicemail — and by the next morning, the man she thought she knew was gone.
Belle is a former Davis Polk attorney, a descendant of John Jay, and the granddaughter of legendary socialite Babe Paley. She was raised in a world where women simply did not speak publicly about their husbands' transgressions. So she broke the chain — first in a viral New York Times Modern Love essay, then in her New York Times bestselling memoir. And now she's here with Jen.
This conversation is everything. The night it all fell apart — the dinner, the mopped floor, the voicemail, the packed bag by morning. The myths we hand women about divorce and who gets to carry the shame. The money piece that nobody wants to talk about but everybody needs to hear. And the strange, hard-won truth that the most devastating thing that ever happened to you might also be the thing that finally gives you back to yourself.
Jen and Belle are in an accidental sisterhood — two women who wrote the book about the thing that broke them, because it turns out a million other women are walking around carrying the same broken thing in silence. This one is for every woman who has ever stood in a kitchen in her pajama pants and felt the floor shift beneath her feet.
If you can't yet imagine what's waiting for you on the other side of the hardest thing, let Belle and Jen show you.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://www.belleburden.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/belleburden/
Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker
The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.
★ “It's really connected me to humanity to hear people's very private stories, their very private feelings, and that they feel safe sharing them with me because I think I was so raw and open and honest about my own.”-- Belle Burden★ “Writing about pain is really something that we really don’t see enough of.” -- Belle Burden★ “It took me years to let go of the matronly woman in the pajama pants who he wasn’t attracted to anymore and to replace her image in my mind with something else.” -- Belle Burden★ “People really want to find the red flags because they want to know that this ending was predictable. I think that makes people feel safer because this is a scary story. It feels totally impossible and then also very possible. I think people really want those red flags.” -- Belle Burden★ “I never could have thought that that horrible thing could happen to me and I could end up in a place where I'm happier, where my life is more interesting, that I feel so much more myself and it's very hard to envision that when you're in it.”-- Belle Burden★ “I think when things kind of fall apart, you just are forced to become more relaxed because nothing is going as you intended it to go.” -- Belle Burden➢
Description:Some episodes we plan. This one you created.
This week, Jen and Amy are stepping back and letting the people they do this whole thing for take center stage. It's Listener Voicemail Day — and honestly? It might be our favorite kind of episode. Because nothing reminds us why this community exists quite like hearing your actual voices.
So we're bringing your calls to you — from all kinds of moments and all kinds of women.
Jessica calls in to reflect on our Awake Collective episode and where she is at in her own healing process, and feeling the loneliness that can settle in when you're deep in the work. Jen and Amy reflect on so much of the wisdom of our incredible Awake Collective panel – Kate Bowler, Nedra Tawwab, Emily Nagoski, and Kobe Cambell, whose words echo here: healing isn't supposed to feel good — it's supposed to feel like disruption.
Sara brings it home with a call about raising young girls. Between them, Jen and Amy are parenting nine young adults, so they have thoughts.
Amanda found Awake on vacation and came home having discovered something she didn't know she was missing — an invisible community of women who just get it.
Deborah calls in from Canada with a story that will stop you in your tracks. A devastating and beautiful parallel between her journey losing her husband to terminal brain cancer and Jen's own story — and the breathtaking grace of how, by God's grace, we do recover.
Tania reflects on the Wilderness and Wonder series and a recent trip to the mountains that cracked something open in her — the awe, the connection, the reminder that this podcast is its own kind of sacred space.
And Diavianne closes things out talking budgets and spreadsheets, which sounds ordinary until you realize it's actually about power — the freedom and confidence that come from truly owning your financial life.
Jen and Amy respond to each one with the honesty and tenderness that only comes from doing this long enough to know: you are never as alone as you think you are.
This is the connective tissue. This is why we show up every week.
Have something you need to say out loud? Head to JenHatmaker.com/Podcast, find the Send Voicemail button, and leave us your story. We're listening.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “There’s something comforting about not feeling alone in something. I borrow courage from other people who say ‘me too’.” – Jen Hatmaker
“Some things only work for us for a season. It’s okay to change things up. There’s not one right way to do things.” – Amy Hardin
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- The Wake-Up Call: What Changes in Midlife—and Why You’re Not Imagining It - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/the-wake-up-call-what-changes-in-midlife-and-why-youre-not-imagining-it/
- Why We Sleep: Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams by Matthew Walker - https://amzn.to/4whxU6N
- The Emotional (and Sometimes Chaotic) Life of Teenagers with Dr. Lisa Damour - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-52-for-the-love-of-calming-the-chaos/the-emotional-and-sometimes-chaotic-life-of-teenagers-with-dr-lisa-damour/
- Good Bones by Maggie Smith - https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/89897/good-bones
...
Description:Some conversations are so good, they deserve a second life.
As we've been building out our Chosen Family series — exploring what it actually takes to find, keep, and nurture the people who truly see you — we kept coming back to this tender conversation because it was resonant then but it hits differently now.
Dr. Thema Bryant is a psychologist, author, professor, ordained minister, and former president of the American Psychological Association. Her books Matters of the Heart and Homecoming have resonated deeply with women navigating the beautiful, complicated work of belonging — and her clarity on what it means to truly come home to yourself is exactly the foundation this series needed.
In this conversation, Jen and Amy dig into:
- Why midlife can feel isolating even when you're surrounded by people — and what's really going on beneath that loneliness
- How to grieve friendships that have run their season while making genuine room for new ones
- The difference between performing friendship and actually being emotionally available for it
- Why our wellness matters more than our loyalty — and what it looks like to stop sacrificing yourself in the name of showing up for everyone else
- Practical tools like writing vows to yourself and how to build community from scratch when one was never ready-made for you
Because here's what we keep coming back to: you cannot truly choose people if you haven't first chosen yourself. This conversation is the starting place.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- When I observe someone making a polite but clear boundary, I respect it. I’m impressed. – Jen Hatmaker
- Can you come to the place where you admit, I miss myself? And myself is not my labor. Myself is not my role. Myself is a living soul and one of the things that feeds my soul are my friendships but those got neglected because I was told that to be a good leader or to be a good mom, I had to deprioritize the things that nourished me. – Dr. Thema Bryant
- If a community is not ready-made, something for you to join, it’s something for you to create. – Dr. Thema Bryant
- Our wellness is more important than our loyalty. – Dr. Thema Bryant
- If you have the tendency of picking people who don’t pick you, you’re not emotionally available. If you were emotionally available when there was nothing flowing back to you, you would shift. But if you fear intimacy, closeness, or being seen and known, you will continue to pursue that which is fleeing you, because it is safer. This is true in friendships and romantic relationships. – Dr. Thema Bryant
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Matters of the Heart: Healing Your Relationship with Yourself and Those You Love by Dr. Thema Bryant - https://amzn.to/40XMql6
Homecoming: Overcome Fear and Trauma to Reclaim Your Whole, Authentic Self by Dr. Thema Bryant - https://amzn.to/4hVYQ4c
The Homecoming Podcast with Dr. Thema Bryant - https://soundcloud.com/dr-thema-bryant-davis
Guest’s Links:
Thema’s website - https://drthema.com/
Thema’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/dr.thema/
Thema’s Twitter - https://x.com/drthema
Description:There are artists whose music marks a moment—and then there are the ones whose songs stay with us for a lifetime.
This week, Jen sits down with beloved returning guest Amy Grant to talk about her long-awaited new album, a project shaped by time, reflection, and a life that’s been fully lived. After a significant health crisis and a slow, intentional return to music, Amy is creating from a place that feels more open, more grounded, and more honest than ever.
Together, they talk about what it means to come back to yourself after everything changes, how creativity evolves over decades, and why the stories we tell later in life often carry a different kind of weight. Amy shares how her songwriting has shifted, the role of memory and perspective in this new work, and what it looks like to keep making meaningful art in a season that feels both quieter and more expansive.
At the heart of both this album and this conversation is Amy’s quiet but steady intention to be a witness—to tell the truth about a life as it’s being lived, and to honor the people who have shown up along the way. From deeply personal songs shaped by love and loss to collaborations with her husband, Vince Gill, and her daughters, this record reflects not just where Amy is now, but who has helped her get here.
This conversation is thoughtful, unhurried, and full of the kind of wisdom that only comes from living a long time and staying curious along the way.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “Many times our limitations create a new path for us.” – Amy Grant
- “The great thing about being 65 is that you can be a witness to everyone and to yourself.” – Amy Grant
- “In my sixties, I’ve realized this is a different landscape and I've got to have to welcome myself differently.” – Amy Grant
- "I just think there is something that happens in your sixties that you just stop fighting it and you welcome it." - Amy Grant
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Amy Grant - The Me That Remains - https://30tgrs.ffm.to/themethatremains
- Vince Gill - https://www.vincegill.com/
- Tom Douglas, songwriter - https://www.instagram.com/tomdouglasmusic
- Mac MacAnally - https://macmcanally.com/
- Brandi Carlile - https://www.brandicarlile.com/
- Three Wishes on NBC - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0460685/
- Jimmy Gentry, WWII veteran - https://www.franklintn.gov/Home/Components/News/News/11185/83
- Amy Grant - Baby, Baby - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnAD2Tb-SE8
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://www.amygrant.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/amygrantofficial/
Twitter - https://x.com/amygrant
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/amygrant/
Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZSki0usQ84d5c ...
Description:This month in the Jen Hatmaker Book Club, we’re reading a novel that doesn’t just tell a story—it inhabits one.
Jen sits down with author Maddie Mortimer to talk about Maps of Our Spectacular Bodies, a breathtaking and formally inventive debut that explores what it means to live inside a body that is changing, remembering, and, ultimately, letting go. At the center is Lia, a woman living with terminal cancer—but this story unfolds as a chorus, with voices that include her family, her own inner world, and even the cancer itself.
Together, Jen and Maddie explore the deeply personal roots of the novel, including Maddie’s own experience of losing her mother, and how that grief shaped the book’s emotional precision. They talk about why she chose to move beyond a traditional narrative and instead capture the feeling of illness—the disorientation, the fractured sense of time, and the way memory lives not just in the mind, but in the body.
They also tap into the book’s striking structure—the visual and sensory journey it creates for readers—and how that imaginative form is now being adapted for the stage, bringing the story full circle to Maddie’s theatrical roots.
In this conversation, we consider what it means to listen to the body as a narrator, how love shows up in the smallest moments, and why stories like this invite us to pay closer attention to the life we are living right now.
This one is tender, surprising, and quietly unforgettable.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Guest’s Links:
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/maddiemortimer/
Twitter - https://x.com/MaddieMortimer
Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker
The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.
★ “For me, the writing process was much more about thinking of cancer and the way that it moves through language and how language can metastasize on the page and the rhythm of this incredibly hyperactive virus, this illness kind of consuming a body, the way that a dark thought could consume a mind.” – Maddie Mortimer★ “I'm quite a restless reader and I think I get bored quite quickly. What I look for in books is that immediacy of how exciting a sentence is or how funny or moving or strange it is.” – Maddie Mortimer ★ “So much of the process of putting words on a page and writing fiction, specifically, is that you surrender yourself. I think it's less about me feeling like I know anything or have anything to say, but more about removing myself so that you feel like you're listening to the world and to the people that you've met, and the impressions that you, your body, whatever, have absorbed.” – Maddie Mortimer★ “The realm of the playground is the page. It’s where anything goes.” – Maddie Mortimer★ “There's something really special about a group of people in a room that are willing to give their time to writers reading their words. It’s got that kind of religious, congregational quality to it.” – Maddie Mortimer➢ Maps of Our Spectacular Bodies by Maddie Mortimer - https://amzn.to/3NRIPCC➢
Description:If you’ve ever felt the quiet fear of placing your body—and your baby—into a healthcare system you don’t fully understand, this conversation is for you.
Today, Jen and Amy sit down with labor and delivery nurse, educator, and internet big sister Jen Hamilton to talk about her brand-new “book baby,” Birth Vibes. With more than a decade at the bedside and millions who trust her honest, compassionate voice, Jen has become a steady guide in one of life’s most vulnerable moments.
In this episode, we pull back the curtain on the delivery room—the expectations, fears, and surprises—and talk about what it actually means to feel prepared. Not in a rigid, checklist kind of way, but in a deeply personal, values-driven way. Because as Jen reminds us, birth isn’t something you control—it’s something you move through.
Today, we talk about:
- Why “perfect birth plans” often set us up for disappointment—and what to hold onto instead
- How to discover your own “birth vibes”—that blend of values, intuition, and informed choice that helps you advocate for yourself
- What it’s like to hold both roles—healthcare provider and influencer—with integrity in today’s world
- How even when birth doesn’t go as planned, it can still be empowering, informed, and deeply ours
Whether you’re expecting, supporting someone who is, or simply curious about the intersection of care, advocacy, and the body’s wisdom, this conversation will leave you feeling steadier, braver, and less alone.
Because at the end of the day, this isn’t just about birth. It’s about learning to trust yourself in the middle of something you can’t fully control—and finding your voice anyway.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “What an honor to be with people during the most vulnerable and impactful moments of their life.” – Jen Hamilton
- “I can watch someone have a birth that goes completely to plan but if they do not feel heard, respected, and empowered, they can leave that experience having negative feelings about what happened. And then, you can have somebody whose birth goes completely off the rails and they leave that experience looking back positively on it if they were heard, respected, empowered, and informed. It has so little to do with what happens and so much more to do with how it happens.” – Jen Hamilton
- “Birth plans are as individual as you are as a human.” – Jen Hamilton
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Birth Vibes: Stories and Strategies for an Empowered Birth by Jen Hamilton – https://amzn.to/4sXMrlp
- Birth Vibes Audiobook – https://amzn.to/4sXMwFJ
- Trauma: Life in the ER – https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0215445/
- A Baby Story on TLC – https://go.tlc.com/show/a-baby-story-tlc-atve-us
- Nurse Hadley – https://nursehadley.com/
- Read the Red Letters Video - https://www.instagram.com/reel/DKVrukwub7O/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==
- Huff Post | This Viral Video Has People Talking About Christianity Vs 'MAGA Christianity' – https://www.huffpost.com/entry/this-viral-video-h ...
Description:This week, Jen and Amy sit down with actress, model, entrepreneur, andLipstick on the Rim host Molly Sims for a conversation that starts light and breezy—backstage at a Hello Sunshine Shine Away event—and quickly moves into something deeper: what it’s like to live in a body that’s been watched, evaluated, and monetized for decades… and how your relationship to that body inevitably changes over time.
Molly has spent most of her life being seen. But what she shares here is what it’s taken to actually see herself.
Today, the discussion centers around the quiet (and sometimes jarring) shift into midlife. Molly opens up about figuring it out in real time, what surprised her most about this chapter, and the unexpected places where things have gotten easier.
There’s also an honest look at what it means to keep showing up in an industry with very loud opinions about women’s bodies—and how Molly now navigates beauty, skincare, procedures, and wellness without losing herself in the process. Where’s the line between empowerment and pressure? And who gets to decide?
But this conversation doesn’t stay theoretical. It lands in real life—in marriage, in motherhood, in the everyday negotiations of confidence and insecurity, and in the intentional ways Molly is trying to give her daughter a different starting point than the one she was handed.
Along the way, the discussion turns to influence, identity, and the kinds of conversations Molly is creating now that she wasn’t having earlier in her career. And in one of the most tender moments of the episode, she reflects on what she would say to her younger self—not to fix her, but just to sit beside her with a little more perspective.
This one feels like sitting across from someone who’s done a lot of living—and is finally comfortable telling the truth about it.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “To be in on something from the inception has given me a lot of fire to keep going.” – Molly Sims
- “My resilient wall of armor is very strong. I've been told I'm too fat, I'm too tall, I'm too dark, I'm too blonde. Sometimes shit needs to go wrong to give you that, okay, let's cry ourselves out of this hole and pull ourselves out.” – Molly Sims
- “To be in your forties and not have the energy of being in your twenties is a lot. It’s a lot. It’s a lot.” – Molly Sims
- “In my fifties, I’m more confident, I’m calmer, and I can handle a lot. But, I get tired.” – Molly Sims
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Raygun What The Hell Is Going On Here Tee - https://www.raygunsite.com/collections/home-page-special/products/what-the-hell
- Hello Sunshine Shine Away Event - https://hello-sunshine.com/shineaway-2/
- YSE BEAUTY - https://www.ysebeauty.com/ | Get a 15% discount at YSE Beauty using the code FORTHELOVE15. Exclusions apply.
- Lipstick on the Rim podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/lipstick-on-the-rim/id1560226129
- Baby CO2 Laser Treatment
- Xtreme Glow Dewey Peptide Plumping Serum - https://www.ysebeauty.com/products/xtreme-glow-serum
- Organic I ...
We Will Not Be Aging Quietly: Claiming Your Most Powerful Season with Katie Fogarty
Description:
What if the years everyone warned you about turned out to be the ones you'd been waiting for?
Today, Jen and Amy sit down with Katie Fogarty—a former journalist, career coach, and the voice behind one of the most vibrant midlife podcasts in the country, called A Certain Age—for an honest, energizing hour about what it really means to thrive in this season.
Katie launched A Certain Age thirty-five days before her 51st birthday with one mission: blow up the narrative that women become less relevant as they get older. Five years and 230-plus episodes later, she's interviewed hundreds of midlife women—and she has thoughts. Big ones.
They dig into the myths about midlife that refuse to die, why Katie calls this season an "accelerant" rather than an obstacle, what it looks like when women stop waiting for permission and start claiming their lives—and what she's hearing that gives her real hope for the women coming behind us.
If you've ever felt like midlife was quietly trying to make you smaller—this episode is your push back.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “Sometimes the word ‘reinventing’ implies we're completely changing our lives and getting rid of everything that came before. It's more about reimagining, because we're drawing on all of our expertise to apply it in new ways, big and small.” – Katie Fogarty
- “Midlife is that moment where you say, let me get going. The kids are grown, the career maybe is established, life is sort of on track, moving forward, and we have this moment with space in our brain, maybe on our calendar, to actually hit go on whatever it is we've been thinking about for so long.” – Katie Fogarty
- “If you are feeling disconnected from relationships, or like you're not being supported, find people that you are visible to. There are communities of people out there who care about what you care about, who want to see you, who will see you.” – Katie Fogarty
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Jen’s first colonoscopy - https://www.instagram.com/reel/DWz8nTvgo6p/
- Sophie Grégoire Trudeau on Life, Emotional Regulation and Midlife Reinventions - https://www.acertainagepod.com/shows/sophie-grgoire-trudeau-on-life-emotional-regulation-and-midlife-reinventions
- Tamsen Fadal - https://www.tamsenfadal.com/
- Grown Woman Talk: Your Guide to Getting and Staying Healthy by Dr. Sharon Malone - https://amzn.to/4t14kQY
- The New Perimenopause: What’s Actually Happening to Your Body with Dr. Mary Claire Haver - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/the-new-perimenopause-whats-actually-happening-to-your-body-with-dr-mary-claire-haver/
- When Life Happens: The Mindset Shift You Need to Manage Stress, Build Confidence, and Break Free by Dr. Rachel Goldman - https://amzn.to/4mnvZsY
- Midlife Private Parts: Revealing Essays That Will Change the Way You Think About Age - https://www.midlifeprivatepa ...
Description:If any conversation belongs squarely in our “The Body Knows: Midlife In Our Skin” series, it’s this one, and for one simple reason — pleasure is a body conversation. Desire is a body conversation. And if midlife has shifted how you feel in your own skin, this episode meets you exactly there.
Vanessa Marin is a licensed psychotherapist, sex educator, and bestselling author of Sex Talks: The Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life, co-written with her husband Xander. With over two decades of experience helping people dismantle shame and build genuinely intimate relationships, Vanessa brings the kind of candid, warm, and disarmingly funny voice this conversation has always needed.
Whether you're partnered or solo, whether your sex life feels complicated or just quietly neglected, whether you're carrying shame you never asked for — this one is for you. Vanessa is here to help us say yes to communication, to connection, and maybe most of all, to pleasure.
Here's what we're getting into:
- Why so many of us have deeply wired, shame-rooted reactions to sex — and where they actually come from
- Why Vanessa says you should start having sex like a man (yes, really)
- The myth about the female orgasm that most of us were never taught the truth about
- The best things you can do for your sex life that have nothing to do with taking your clothes off
- The difference between spontaneous and responsive desire — and why understanding this might change everything
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “Despite not getting a great introduction to sex or intimacy or relationships, I had this intuitive sense that there should be joy with this act. There should be connection and intimacy, and it should be something I should feel excited to explore when the time is right.” – Vanessa Marin
- “This is literally what I am here on this earth for, is to help people get more comfortable talking about sex, connection, and intimacy.” – Vanessa Marin
- “A lot of people hear, she's a sex therapist. They must have this incredible sex life. The reality is, we've been through ups and downs, too. I am not immune to the water that we all have been swimming in. I've internalized plenty of crap myself. And so I want people to understand we are all struggling to keep that spark alive in one way or another. We are all struggling with our sex lives, with our bodies in one way or another.” – Vanessa Marin
- Research has shown that in male-female relationships, women are carrying the vast majority of the mental load. There is so much that is going through our heads on a daily basis—all this tracking, and preparing, and anticipating, and evaluating, our heads are just constantly going. And when you have so much in your brain, it makes it really hard to make the space for intimacy and desire too.” – Vanessa Marin
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Sex Talks: The Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life by Vanessa Marin and Xander Marin - https://amzn.to/43VSwnS
- The Sex Talks Card Deck and Guidebook: 90 Prompts to Deepen Connection and Spark Intimacy - https://amzn.to/3Hys1xa
- Vanessa and Xander’s Deeper Monthly Membership - https://buy.vmtherapy.com/deeper
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://vmtherapy.com/about
Description:This week, Jen and Amy sit down with double board-certified OB-GYN and reproductive endocrinologist Dr. Natalie Crawford, author of The Fertility Formula, for a wide-ranging conversation about hormones, inflammation, stress, and the powerful (and often misunderstood) signals our bodies are constantly sending.
While Dr. Crawford’s work is rooted in fertility, this episode zooms out to something much bigger: how hormone health reflects our overall well-being — and why midlife is often the moment when the body stops whispering and starts speaking clearly.
But this conversation isn’t just for women trying to get pregnant.
It’s for women in perimenopause and menopause wondering what their bodies are doing now — and why. Because fertility is more than reproduction; it’s a health marker. The same patterns that shape our fertility years — inflammation, hormone signaling, metabolic health, stress — also influence how we experience menopause, what symptoms show up, and what kinds of support our bodies will need.
And it’s also for women stepping into the grandparent years — who want to better understand what their daughters, daughters-in-law, and younger women in their lives are navigating. Because the more we understand our own bodies, the more compassion and clarity we bring to the next generation.
Together, they unpack:
- Why your menstrual cycle (even in its changes) is one of your most important health indicators
- Natalie’s experience with pregnancy loss and how it shaped her approach to women’s health
- The effects of societal and political shifts on women’s reproductive choices
- How cycle awareness can support both fertility outcomes and menopause transitions
Whether or not you are thinking about fertility — or are long past that season — this conversation reframes it as something more expansive: a reflection of vitality, resilience, and how supported your body truly feels across every stage of life.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “We’re living in a different era now, luckily, where women are demanding more knowledge about their bodies.” – Dr. Natalie Crawford
- “I think that my own experience reframed how I educate my patients and the public in taking charge and learning how to listen to your body and believe it. What are those little red flags—whether it's my cycle, whether it's symptoms, whether it's fatigue, and how do I get answers or try to modify those so that I can have more control over what is happening to me?” – Dr. Natalie Crawford
- “Anybody who's trying to sell you a quick fix, especially if it comes in a bottle, is most likely not in your best interest. That doesn't mean there aren't medications or supplements that can help, but that comes after you've done what you can do.” – Dr. Natalie Crawford
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- The Fertility Formula: Take Control of Your Reproductive Future by Dr. Natalie Crawford – https://amzn.to/47HZ1NR
- The New Perimenopause: What’s Actually Happening to Your Body with Dr. Mary Claire Haver - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/the-new-perimenopause-whats-actually-happening-to-your-body-with-dr-mary-claire-haver/
- Fora Fertility Clinic– https://www.forafertility.com/
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://www.nataliecrawfordmd.com/
...
Description:Some stories feel less like books and more like quiet companions. Theo of Golden is one of those.
This month in the Jen Hatmaker Book Club, Jen sits down with author Allen Levi to talk about the small-town novel that has quietly captured the hearts of readers around the world. Set in the fictional town of Golden, Georgia, the story introduces us to Theo — a mysterious newcomer whose little shop becomes an unlikely gathering place for the people around him. As neighbors wander in carrying grief, questions, regrets, and ordinary Tuesdays, something remarkable begins to happen: lives shift, wounds soften, and the quiet work of grace unfolds in the most unexpected ways.
But Allen’s path to writing Theo of Golden is a story of its own.
Before this book found its way into readers’ hands, Allen spent decades living another life — as a litigator and as a musician and songwriter, telling stories in courtrooms and through songs long before he ever sat down to write a novel. In this conversation, Jen and Allen talk about how those two worlds — law and music — shaped the storyteller he would eventually become, and how the long arc of a creative life sometimes leads us somewhere we never expected.
Together, Jen and Allen talk about the beauty of slow stories, the sacredness hiding in ordinary places, and why the most transformative moments in life rarely arrive with fanfare. They explore the characters of Golden, the themes of redemption and belonging woven through the book, and the deeper invitation at the heart of Theo’s story — to pay attention to the people and moments right in front of us.
If you’ve ever believed that kindness still matters, that communities can heal one conversation at a time, or that ordinary lives are full of extraordinary grace, this conversation will feel like coming home.
Grab your coffee, pull up a chair, and join Jen and Allen Levi for a conversation about stories, second acts, and the quiet magic that happens when people really see one another.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “All through the writing of the book, I cried and cried and I'm not an easy crier, but I fell in love with these characters. They still kind of inhabit the space around me. But it told me that there was something bigger going on than just the story. Maybe the better angels of our nature are waking up and bringing something to the surface that maybe is good for us. I hope so.” – Allen Levi
- “I have heard, if you want to write, you just sit down with a pen and you start writing and the story will bubble up. And so I did that and the story never bubbled up. It just frustrated me and frustrated me. That's why I quit so many times, but eventually it started coming together almost like writing a song.” – Allen Levi
- “Everything that I've done professionally has required me to use words to tell stories, usually to persuade people. As a lawyer, I did that. As a singer songwriter, I did that. And now as a novelist.”– Allen Levi
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Theo of Golden: A Novel by Allen Levi - https://amzn.to/47J6V9p
- Allen Levi’s Music - https://open.spotify.com/artist/2UaP04apWp23PxnhKQHJgx?si=3tzeCi3HROqRampni92Dew
- Jen Hatmaker Book Club - https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/collections/book-club
- Alan Bradley - https://alanbradleyauthor.com/
Description:If you’ve ever whispered, Is this it?—if you’ve been doing “all the right things” and still feel that unfinished ache humming under your skin—go ahead and hit download.
Jen is joined by her beloved friend (and actual genius) Kate Bowler to talk about her new book, Joyful Anyway—a bracing, funny, tender rebellion against the optimization industrial complex. This is not a “choose joy” pep talk where somebody sprints past you tossing a Live Laugh Love pillow at your face. Kate is here for the after: after the before-and-after story didn’t pan out, after grief and guilt and longing set up permanent residence, after you realized happiness is fragile and reality keeps kicking in.
Together, Jen, Amy, and Kate name what so many of us can’t quite articulate: the ache—that “achy, stabby want” at the center of our lived experience. They talk about why we need permission just to be human, why “performing resilience” is exhausting, and how telling the truth can loosen the grip of the story that’s been swallowing the rest of our life.
Kate also shares an unforgettable story about a snake bite, an ER, and a moment of unexpected mercy that cracked something open—proof that joy doesn’t always come through the front door. Sometimes it slips in sideways, like grace. Like a sudden, full-bodied yes—even when nothing is resolved.
You’ll also hear about:
- The difference between happiness (fragile and expensive) and joy (sneaky, un-schedulable, and—somehow—free)
- How joy finds us through embodied moments—beauty, absurdity, paying attention
- The Burn Book / Resentment List and why making a “this scarred me, this counted” list might be the most faithful thing you do all week (including Kate’s deeply personal grievance about her tragically unaesthetic family gravesite)
- Roadside Joy Detours: Kate’s practice of putting herself “in the way of joy” with absurd road trips to local oddities
- And Kate’s reminder: you are a song—don’t die with it still inside you
Bottom line: if you’re quietly undone, if your body feels weary, if the headlines have you spiraling—Kate is here with permission, language, and a weird little flashlight. The ache stays. But joy still shows up. Sometimes as grace. Sometimes as absurdity. Sometimes as a roadside attraction you drove two hours to see for no reason—except you’re alive, and that’s reason enough.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “I think there's a great mystery at the heart of the human experience and I wanted to explore joy as one of those unbelievable places.” – Kate Bowler
- “The purpose of that ache inside you is to get you to re-examine how it feels in your body, bring your honesty to it, and then ask, where can I go from here? Where can this take me that's lovelier than here?” – Kate Bowler
- “I find that absurdity is one of the side doors to joy.” – Kate Bowler
- “Joy is asking us to step up to the edge of a mystery where we get momentary fulfillment and then we get life. And God is asking us to say that this is holy.” – Kate Bowler
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Joyful Anyway by Kate Bowler - https://amzn.to/3ZWqNBT
- Kate Bowler book tour - https://katebowler.com/books/joyfulanyway/#tour
- Theo of Golden: A Novel by Allen Levi- https://amzn.to/4bdpN2q
Guest’s Links:
Website< ...
Description:What does it mean to be okay when nothing is okay?
Not fixed.
Not optimized.
Not cured.
Just… okay.
This week, Jen and Amy sit down with bestselling author and professional weirdo Jenny Lawson to talk about surviving — and sometimes even thriving — inside a brain that does not always cooperate. Jenny’s new book, How to Be Okay When Nothing Is Okay, is a field guide for tender humans: a collection of tiny tools for when the big solutions feel impossible.
Today, we talk about:
- Living with “tiny erratic squirrels” in your head
- Why imposter syndrome gets louder with success
- Learning to live within your real capacity
- Why you’re not failing if it’s just not for you
- Helpful tools like “weird walks”, “body doubling”, “writing Zooms”,
- The radical courage of simply staying
This conversation explores what happens when we stop trying to override our nervous systems and start listening to them instead. Midlife has a way of stripping away illusion — about productivity, about comparison, about who we’re supposed to be.
Jenny reminds us that sometimes grit looks like finishing the book. And sometimes it looks like taking a drink of water and calling it enough.
If you are exhausted, if you feel behind, if your brain tells you you’re the only one struggling – YOU ARE NOT ALONE. And being “still here” is no small thing.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “Self-help books are super helpful for the right kind of person but I’m not that person.” – Jenny Lawson
- “Keep in mind that what worked for you in the past might not necessarily work for you now or in the future, and that doesn't mean you failed. It just means that's an opportunity.” – Jenny Lawson
- “If you throw humor into a really dark subject, it gives people permission to laugh. And then that big monster becomes so much smaller.” – Jenny Lawson
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- How to Be Okay When Nothing Is Okay: Tips and Tricks That Kept Me Alive, Happy, and Creative in Spite of Myself by Jenny Lawson – https://amzn.to/4qWKZi5
- Samantha Irby – https://www.samanthairby.com/
- A Ghost and His Gold by Roberta Eaton Cheadle – https://amzn.to/405lMH8
- Anne Rice – https://annerice.com/
- Dean Koontz – https://www.deankoontz.com/
- Mexican Gothic by Silvia Moreno-Garcia – https://amzn.to/475Qp31
- Focusmate (Body Doubling App) - https://www.focusmate.com/
- Let's Pretend This Never Happened: (A Mostly True Memoir) by Jenny Lawson – https://amzn.to/4rGEBN7
- Furiously Happy: A Funny Book About Horrible Things by Jenny Lawson – https://amzn.to/4u4RBxG
- Broken (In The Best Possible Way) by Jenny Lawson – https://amzn.to/4r3Bhuh
- Jenny Lawson Book Tour - https://thebloggess.com/2026/02/25/how-to-be-okay-when-nothing-is-okay-on-book-tour/
Description:For years, women in their late 30s and 40s have walked into doctors’ offices saying the same thing: “I don’t feel like myself.”
They’re exhausted but can’t sleep. Gaining weight but eating less. Anxious, foggy, irritable, disconnected. And too often, they’re told it’s stress. Aging. Depression. Just part of being a woman.
But what if it’s something else?
This week, Jen and Amy sit down with board-certified OB-GYN and menopause expert Dr. Mary Claire Haver to talk about what’s really happening in perimenopause — the hormonal transition that can begin years before your final period and affect nearly every system in your body.
Drawing from her new book The New Perimenopause, Dr. Haver explains:
- Why the brain may be the first organ to notice hormone shifts
- Why antidepressants are often prescribed before hormones are even discussed
- The dangerous legacy of outdated research and underfunded women’s health
- How bone density, cholesterol, muscle mass, mood, libido, and cognition are all connected
- And why midlife is not a decline — but a powerful window of opportunity
This is not just a conversation about hot flashes. It’s about the “Zone of Chaos.” It’s about medical gaslighting. It’s about reclaiming your body as your ally, not your enemy.
If you’ve ever whispered, “What is wrong with me?” or spent your sleepless nights up Googling dramatic questions like “is my brain broken?” — this episode is for you.
You’re not broken. You’re not weak. And you are definitely not alone.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “We got some bad fcking advice…Power through! You built this life. You asked for this. Oh, and also be thin, and make yourself smaller, and don't take up space, and make sure you put everyone in your family before your needs. That's the only way you're gonna be rewarded, elevated, celebrated is on this altar of self-sacrifice. You know what that did for my mother and my grandmother? Dementia and sarcopenia. I’m saying we’re going to take a different path.” – Dr. Mary Claire Haver*
- “Men build rockets. Women build healthcare systems.” – Dr. Mary Claire Haver
- “One of the good things about menopause is that women lose their give-a-shit filter.” – Dr. Mary Claire Haver
- “I just want menopause to be taken half as seriously as erectile dysfunction.” – Dr. Mary Claire Haver
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- The New Perimenopause: An Evidence-Based Guide to Surviving the Zone of Chaos and Feeling Like Yourself Again by Dr. Mary Claire Haver – https://www.amazon.com/New-Perimenopause-Evidence-Based-Surviving-Yourself/dp/0593736613/
- The New Menopause: Navigating Your Path Through Hormonal Change with Purpose, Power, and Facts by Dr. Mary Claire Haver - https://amzn.to/4aUtrx3
- The Blue Lagoon film (1980) – https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080453/
- Menopause.org
- The International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health (ISSWSH) - https://www.isswsh.org/
- The Pause Life - https://thepauselife.com/
- MidiHealth - https://www.joinmidi.com/
Guest’s Links:
Description:What do we do when the world feels like too much?
When the headlines won’t let up, when grief and uncertainty sit heavy in our bodies, when we’re carrying more than we ever thought we could—how do we keep going without numbing out or falling apart?
This week, Jen sits down with beloved writer and friend Shannan Martin to talk about her new book Counterweights, a tender, practical guide for living with hope in a heavy world.
At the center of Shannan’s work is a deceptively simple idea: when life gets heavy, we don’t eliminate the weight—we learn to carry something equally weighty in the other hand. Not balance. Not denial. But both/and.
Together, Jen and Shannan explore what it means to hold grief and joy at the same time, to resist despair without turning away from reality, and to find steady ground in the middle of it all. They talk about community as survival, faith that evolves and expands, and the small, ordinary moments that become lifelines when everything feels overwhelming.
This conversation is a fitting close to our Wilderness & Wonder exploration—because if the wilderness strips us down to what’s real, Shannan helps us ask: what will hold us up now?
If you’ve been feeling stretched thin, worn down, or just plain tired of carrying it all alone, this episode is for you.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “Now, what are the things that are keeping me going? For me, it’s clawing for those little tiny moments where we can. I need to see myself take care of myself.” – Shannan Martin
- “We have to carry a lot of really heavy things in one hand. We don't choose these things. We would never have asked for them. And we can't just put them down. We don't have control over them. We can't just set them aside. So how do we carry these heavy things? We fill the other hand with heavy goodness.” – Shannan Martin
- “The world feels catastrophic right now. My bowl of curry for lunch cannot cancel that out. There's no amount of beautiful sunsets that can cancel out a diagnosis that nobody wants or these heavy, heavy things that we are tasked with carrying because balance is impossible.” – Shannan Martin
- “When wholeness is our goal, beauty is our emergency.” – Shannan Martin
- “Anytime I can disrupt the algorithm, I feel it in my body.” – Shannan Martin
- “The abundant life is not getting all the things we ever wanted. The abundant life is you get this and this and the task now is to figure out how to carry it.” – Shannan Martin
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Counterweights: An Essential Practice for Holding Hope in a Heavy World by Shannan Martin - https://amzn.to/4sRdTRZ
- David Chang - https://www.instagram.com/davidchang/
- 7: An Experimental Mutiny Against Excess by Jen Hatmaker
- Rainer Maria Rilke - https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/rainer-maria-rilke
- Sara Miles - https://sara-miles.squarespace.com/bio
- Shannan Martin Book Tour - https://www.shannanmartin.com/counterweights-events
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://www.shannanmartin.com/
Today we are thrilled to introduce you to a voice we think can really help us navigate some of the big life questions we’re facing right now: Suzy Welch. Have you ever wondered, “What should I do with my life?” Or, “Should I stay or should I go?” Or, “Is there anyone out there who actually tells the freaking truth about life and work today, but also does not leave me in despair?” Wonder no more! The “Becoming You” podcast has arrived, hosted by Suzy Welch, the business journalist-turned-professor at the helm of NYU’s wildly popular self-discovery class by the same name.
A three New York Times best-seller and frequent contributor to the Today Show and the Wall Street Journal, Professor Welch is considered a leading expert on decision-making, and the discovery and pursuit of authentic purpose. Join Suzy every week to laugh, learn, get riled up, get calmed down, and basically get closer to becoming you, joyfully, in this crazy, upside-down, scary, messy, and altogether beautiful world we share.
Description:Sometimes a conversation lands so gently—and so powerfully—that it deserves another moment in the light.
In this encore episode, Jen revisits her conversation with poet, writer, and visual artist David Gate, whose work explores themes of care, community, and spiritual resilience.
Jen first discovered David the way so many of us discover the words that change us: late at night on Instagram, stumbling across a poem that made her stop mid-scroll and immediately send it to six friends. That was the beginning of a quiet fandom that eventually turned into this conversation—one that felt less like an interview and more like sitting in the presence of someone who has learned how to notice beauty in hard places.
David’s work—including his collection A Rebellion of Care—is rooted in the radical idea that tenderness, attention, and compassion are not small acts. They are resistance. They are survival. They are a way through the wilderness.
Together, Jen and David explore the ways language can become a lifeline during difficult seasons. They talk about the courage of softness in a harsh world, the sacred practice of paying attention, and how poetry can give us words for things we thought we had to carry alone.
This conversation sits right at the intersection: the wilderness of grief, uncertainty, and fatigue—and the wonder that still insists on growing in the cracks.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “I did not want to have an email job and I did not want to be in meetings that could have been emails. I did not want to be on Slack. I just didn't want that to be what I was spending my time doing. I loved caring for people, and I loved creating and writing, and I got to do that within the church world.” – David Gate
- “It’s a constant battle to speak the truth. Even things we all know It can be difficult to say, if it's not something that is normally said, and it's not something that is normally expressed, so you have to fight for that and you have to fight for your experience of the truth. You have to fight for your story. You have to fight for all of that.” – David Gate
- “I think it's very, very difficult for men to reach for emotional honesty because everything tells you that you're failing if you do that. But it's the most important work right now. And so much of what men are actually looking for in this world, intimacy, a sense of place, a sense of belonging, companionship, adventure, excitement, is on the other side of reaching for that emotional honesty.” – David Gate
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- A Rebellion of Care: Poems and Essays by David Gate - https://amzn.to/4jjf87X
- Good Soil: The Education of an Accidental Farmhand by Jeff Chu - https://amzn.to/3GnS21w
- Cultivating Belonging and Evolving Faith with Jeff Chu - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/cultivating-belonging-and-evolving-faith-with-jeff-chu/
- Sarah Bessey - https://www.sarahbessey.com/
- Armando Veve, Illustrator - https://www.instagram.com/armandoveve/
- Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/3YHKgpw
- Sinners film (2025) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt31193180/
- Malaprop's Bookstore, ...
Description:Today’s bonus episode is a joy from start to finish. We’re sitting down with treasured friend Anne Lamott—beloved writer, teacher, and spiritual guide—whose voice has shaped how so many of us think about faith, truth, writing, and what it means to be human on the page.
Anne returns to For the Love to talk about her upcoming book, Good Writing, co-written with her husband, journalist and editor Neal Allen. While Neal couldn’t join us today, this conversation is very much about the shared work they created together—a book that isn’t chasing polish or perfection, but clarity, honesty, and respect for the reader.
Good Writing is part craft guide, part philosophy of living. Written in alternating voices, it blends Anne’s signature warmth, humor, and spiritual insight with Neal’s journalistic precision and discipline. Together, they explore what makes sentences work, how voice is formed, why ego gets in the way, and why clarity is not just a stylistic choice—but an act of generosity.
In this intimate and often funny conversation, Jen and Amy talk with Anne about what it was like to co-write a book so closely, what collaboration revealed about trust and restraint, and how writing—at its best—is a relationship. They dig into voice and ego, bad sentences and letting go, rhythm and revision, and why removing what doesn’t serve the sentence can feel like both grief and grace.
But as always with Anne, the conversation goes deeper than craft. This episode explores writing as a way of being in the world—how attention, humility, and courage shape not only our sentences, but our lives.
If you’ve ever loved Bird by Bird, wrestled with your inner critic, or longed to tell the truth with a little more care—this conversation is for you.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “I only have to do today, today.” – Anne Lamott
- “We write because we try to tell the truth. We try to share our experience, strength and hope.” – Anne Lamott
- “Say what you mean. Mean what you say. And don’t say it mean.” – Anne Lamott
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Traveling Mercies: Some Thoughts on Faith by Anne Lamott - https://amzn.to/4qLZRQR
- Anne Lamott on Faith, Writing, and Radical Self-Love - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/bonus/anne-lamott-on-faith-writing-and-radical-self-love-2/
- Neal Allen - https://www.shapesoftruth.com/
- Good Writing: 36 Ways to Improve Your Sentences by Neal Allen and Anne Lamott - https://amzn.to/3NMoKNP
- Bird by Bird: Some Instructions on Writing and Life by Anne Lamott - https://amzn.to/4t7FteL
- Somehow: Thoughts on Love by Anne Lamott - https://amzn.to/3Z4Nd3r
- Stanley Tucci on the For the Love podcast - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/stanley-tucci-food-memories-and-emotions/
- Amy’s Full of Microplastics and Existential Dread Sweatshirt - https://www.threadless.com/shop/@dinomike/design/full-of-microplastics/womens/sweatshirt
- Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://a ...
Description:If parenting has you oscillating between “I’ve got this” and “I need to lie down immediately,” press play.
Today, we’re stepping into one of the most humbling arenas for compassion and grace: your own living room. Because fierce compassion isn’t just for coworkers and complicated relatives—it’s also for the tiny humans melting down over the wrong color cup or the soccer uniform that didn’t get washed in time for game day. And it’s for YOU, standing there, wondering how you got so activated over this nonsense.
Jen and Amy are talking to Mandy Grass—nationally recognized Board-Certified Behavior Analyst, founder of The Family Behaviorist, former teacher, and mom in a blended family of seven kids (ages four to sixteen). Yes, seven. Her house is less “quiet retreat” and more “ongoing behavioral case study.” The data is… robust.
For nearly two decades, Mandy has been translating behavior science into practical, no-guilt tools for families. Her central message feels radical in a culture obsessed with control: kids’ behavior is communication—not a moral failure. And neither is your exhaustion.
In this conversation, we talk about:
- What Mandy actually hears when parents say, “We’ve tried everything”
- How shame and blame sneak into parenting—and how to gently escort them out
- Why so much of parenting work begins with the parent, not the kid (I know. We had feelings about this too.)
- And one tiny shift you can make tonight that will cool the temperature at home (no sticker charts required)
Here’s the truth: we cannot regulate our kids if we are operating at DEFCON 1 ourselves. Fierce compassion means holding boundaries without losing your humanity. It means seeing your child clearly—and offering yourself the same grace when you inevitably lose it over bedtime negotiations.
Mandy also shares about her new podcast, The Behavior Blueprint, a grounded, step-by-step guide for parents who are tired of quick fixes and ready for something that actually works in real life—not just on Instagram. It’s equal parts instruction, compassion, and “oh thank God, it’s not just me.”
Take a breath. Your child isn’t the problem. You aren’t either. And that might be the fiercest compassion of all.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- "In behavior analysis, every behavior has a function –attention, escape, access to something tangible, and an automatic or a sensory function."– Mandy Grass
- “Do I have ADHD, anxiety, or am I just a mom?” – Mandy Grass
- “Our default is take away, take away, take away. And really what we want to do is reinforce the behavior we want to see more of.” – Mandy Grass
- “You’re not gonna get it right every time, but at least it doesn't feel like you have no idea what to do.”– Mandy Grass
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- The Behavior Blueprint podcast with Mandy Grass - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-behavior-blueprint-with-mandy-grass/id1872526999
- Too Much Junk on Your Social Media Feeds? I'll Show You How to Clean It Up - https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/too-much-junk-on-your-social-media-feeds-ill-show-you-how-to-clean-it-up?test_uuid=04IpBmWGZleS0I0J3epvMrC&test_variant=A
Guest’s Links:
Description:What if you were handed a single piece of information that could change everything you think you know about your life?
For this Jen Hatmaker Book Club episode, Jen sits down with novelist Nikki Erlick, author of the wildly imaginative and deeply human novel The Measure—a story that asks one unsettling question: What would you do if you knew exactly how long you had to live?
In The Measure, every adult in the world receives a small wooden box containing a string that reveals the length of their life. What follows isn’t chaos for chaos’ sake, but something far more intimate: marriages tested, dreams deferred or pursued, fears amplified, and love redefined. It’s a novel about mortality, yes—but even more so about meaning, choice, and how we show up for one another when certainty is stripped away.
Jen and Nikki talk about the origin of this unforgettable premise, the emotional weight of writing about death in order to illuminate life, and why the book resonates so deeply with readers navigating grief, anxiety, hope, and big unanswered questions. They explore what The Measure reveals about how we value time, how fear can quietly shape our decisions, and what it might look like to live more honestly—even without guarantees.
Whether you’ve already read along with the book club or are just encountering this story for the first time, this conversation invites you to reflect on your own “measure”—and to consider how love, courage, and presence might matter more than the number of days themselves.
This episode is tender, thought-provoking, and quietly life-altering. Come for the story. Stay for the questions it leaves you asking long after the last page.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “I was preoccupied with these big questions in life, the things that don't have easy answers or any answers at all. Why do people have different fates? Why do bad things happen to good people? How much power do we actually have over our lives? That inspired me.” – Nikki Erlick
- “My process felt like people knocking on the door to my brain at all times, being like, what about me? What about me? I would be an interesting story too. I had to answer the first couple of knocks and bring these new characters in. Once I hit eight or 10, I felt like readers can't handle any more than this.” – Nikki Erlick
- “I wanted to pull on everything, for every community that has been marginalized to make this experience feel real for the people in this book.” – Nikki Erlick
- “The one thing that doesn't go out of style is hope.”– Nikki Erlick
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- The Measure: A Novel by Nikki Erlick - https://amzn.to/3OmiJaK
- The Poppy Fields: A Novel by Nikki Erlick - https://amzn.to/49ZxdGf
- Allen Bradley, author - https://alanbradleyauthor.com/
- Sandwich: A Novel by Catherine Newman - https://amzn.to/4a0bOwB
- Catherine Newman on the For the Love podcast - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/august-2025-catherine-newmans-sandwich/
- Wreck by Catherine Newman - https://amzn.to/4bvUy3o
- This Is Not About Us by Allegra Goodman - https://amzn.to/4qnGIE3
Guest’s Links:
Description:Many of us were taught that desire is dangerous—something to manage, suppress, or feel ashamed of. But what if desire isn’t the problem at all? What if it’s not just about sex or attraction, but about the places we feel most alive?
Today, Jen and Amy sit down with FTL fan-favorite Jay Stringer, a licensed therapist and author whose work helps people understand the deeper stories shaping their desires—especially the ones we’ve been taught to hide, or silence. Drawing from his powerful new book Desire, Jay reframes desire not as a moral failure or impulse to eliminate, but as a signal worth listening to—one that points us toward what formed us, what wounded us, and what we are still longing for beneath the surface.
Jay shifts the focus from behavior modification to understanding the story behind desire—for intimacy, success, escape, creativity, or belonging—shaped by early attachment, trauma, and unmet needs. The conversation moves from "What's wrong with me?" to "What happened to me?" turning desire from shame into meaning. This is not a conversation about labeling or fixing yourself. It’s about understanding yourself—how your story formed you, and how listening to what brings you to life can lead toward freedom, wholeness, and deeper connection.
This episode also serves as the opening doorway into our Wilderness & Wonder series. In a season when many of us are navigating uncertainty—spiritually, relationally, or internally—this episode grounds us in the idea that exploration isn’t aimlessness, but formation. That the wilderness can be a teacher. And that desire itself may be one of the quiet guides helping us stay awake, curious, and present as we learn how to live inside the questions.
This is a gentle conversation, but it’s also a brave one. And we’re really glad you’re here for it.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “Desire is a navigational term from Latin that means ‘lack of a star’. I'm looking into the skies, trying to find this new direction. How do I get home in the midst of all this wandering, all this misery that I feel like I'm in?” – Jay Stringer
- “When did you last feel alive? When did you feel connected to your body, connected to others? That's the essence of desire that we're trying to get back to.” – Jay Stringer
- “The antidote to shame is really developing some curiosity for it.” – Jay Stringer
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Harper’s Magazine | Who Goes Nazi? by Dorothy Thompson - https://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/who-goes-nazi/
- Desire: The Longings Inside Us and the New Science of How We Love, Heal, and Grow by Jay Stringer - https://amzn.to/4buLADD
- Unwanted: How Sexual Brokenness Reveals Our Way to Healing by Jay Stringer - https://www.amazon.com/Unwanted-Sexual-Brokenness-Reveals-Healing/dp/1631466720
- Annie Dillard - https://www.anniedillard.com/
- Brené Brown - https://brenebrown.com/
- Alex Honnold climbs Taipei 101 skyscraper without ropes - https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Living/video/alex-honnold-climbs-taipei-101-skyscraper-ropes-129537771
- Bill Plotkin - https://www.animas.org/about-us/our-founder/
Description:What does it look like to strive ardently for justice and equality without losing yourself in the process?
Today, Jen sits down with Norah O’Donnell—award-winning journalist, anchor, and managing editor of the CBS Evening News—for a conversation about courage, compassion, and the women who have quietly shaped the arc of American history.
Norah’s new book, We the Women: The Hidden Heroes Who Shaped America, uncovers the stories of women who refused to disappear: printers and poets, doctors and intellectuals, community builders and policymakers, women who risked safety, status, and belonging to tell the truth, expand freedom, and insist that dignity belongs to everyone. In this episode, we reflect on what these lives reveal about compassion—not as sentiment, but as action.
Jen, Amy, and Norah talk about the indomitable women who made justice visible, who challenged power without losing their moral center, and who built systems of care that outlived them. The conversation also turns inward, as Norah reflects on her own career as one of the most trusted voices in American broadcast journalism, regularly asking hard questions in public spaces and of people in positions of power.
This is a conversation about fierce compassion—the kind that tells the truth, draws boundaries, builds community, and refuses erasure. It’s an invitation to remember the women who came before us, and to consider how we might carry their courage forward in our own time.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “I think that journalists are doing an incredible job right now under really tough circumstances. But they're bringing to light what the power of the federal government, what the power of state governments and others are doing, and allowing the electorate to be informed so that they can get involved, they can vote, they can be energized, and each of us can be part of this great American democracy.” – Norah O’Donnell
- “I do believe we need more women in government and more women in positions of power.” - Norah O’Donnell
- “I’m in the business of information not affirmation.” – Norah O’Donnell
- “Women have been at the forefront of helping to bend that arc towards justice. Women have crashed through the educational glass ceiling. More women get degrees than men. Women have the right to vote and they do vote in greater numbers than men. So when are we gonna see this tipping point? I keep waiting for that in my lifetime.” – Norah O’Donnell
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- We the Women: The Hidden Heroes Who Shaped America by Norah O’Donnell - https://amzn.to/4keE2Hb
- We The Women Tour - https://www.wethewomenbook.com/about
- CBS News | Norah O’Donnell - https://www.cbsnews.com/team/norah-odonnell/
- The Six Triple Eight | Netflix - https://www.netflix.com/title/81590591
- Mary McLeod Bethune Statue - https://www.aoc.gov/explore-capitol-campus/art/mary-mcleod-bethune-statue
- The Declaration of Sentiments - https://www.nps.gov/wori/learn/historyculture/declaration-of-sentiments.htm
Guest’s Links:
Website ...
Description: Description:
What happens when the life you’ve been managing no longer fits?
Jen Hatmaker sits down with Nedra Glover Tawwab, Emily Nagoski, Kobe Campbell, and Kate Bowler for an honest conversation about what it really means to wake up in midlife.
Together, they explore where awakening often shows up first—our relationships, bodies, mental health, and faith. This isn’t about fixing yourself. It’s about noticing what’s shifting, understanding why it feels disruptive, and realizing you’re not alone.
From boundaries and burnout to anxiety, trauma, body shame, and faith after certainty, this episode offers language and clarity for women navigating midlife change with courage.
If you’ve ever thought, Something’s changing—and I don’t know what to do with it, this conversation is for you.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
“You’re not broken. You’re paying attention.” — Jen Hatmaker
“Midlife clarity isn’t cruelty. It’s information.” — Nedra Glover Tawwab
“Healing doesn’t mean you stop feeling. It means your responses finally make sense.” — Kobe Campbell
“Anxiety can bring clarity—but it’s not meant to be the fuel forever.” — Kobe Campbell
“You don’t complete stress by thinking it through. You complete it by letting it move through your body.” — Emily Nagoski
“Certainty falling away doesn’t mean faith is gone. It means it’s growing up.” — Kate Bowler
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Set Boundaries, Find Peace: A Guide to Reclaiming Yourselfby Nedra Glover Tawwab – https://amzn.to/4rhSzofThe Balancing Act: Creating Healthy Dependency and Connection Without Losing Yourselfby Nedra Glover Tawwab – https://amzn.to/46cF4hgCome As You Are: Revised and Updated: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Lifeby Emily Nagoski – https://www.amazon.com/Come-You-Are-Surprising-Transform/dp/1982165316/
- Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Emily Nagoski – https://amzn.to/3MgTXIK
- Why Am I Like This?: How to Break Cycles, Heal from Trauma, and Restore Your Faith by Kobe Campbell – https://amzn.to/4qIMqR9
- Joyful, Anyway by Kate Bowler – https://amzn.to/3MdyfW3
- Everything Happens podcast with Kate Bowler – https://katebowler.com/podcasts/
Nedra’s Links:
Website - https://www.nedratawwab.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/nedratawwab/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/nedratawwab/-
Substack - https://nedratawwab.substack.com/
Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/you-need-to-hear-this-with-nedra-tawwab/id1686288228
Emily’s Links:
Website - https://www.emilynagoski.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/enago ...
Description:
Jen revisits this fan favorite episode with Mel Robbins. Buckle up, listeners. It was only a matter of time before our paths crossed with Mel Robbins, one of the most respected experts on change and motivation in the zeitgeist, and today is that day. Known for being the host of the #1 ranking education podcast in the world, bringing deeply relatable topics, tactical advice, tools, and compelling conversations to her audiences, Jen and Amy spend today’s hour diving into Mel’s “Let Them” theory, which is taking the world by storm, already delivering instant peace and freedom in the lives and relationships of people putting it into practice.
Together, they discuss:
- The difference between “Let Them” and “Let Me”
- Learning to release the white-knuckle grip we hold over other people’s behavior (and other things beyond our control)
- Reframing disappointment to view it as a gift (yes, it’s possible!)
- Repositioning self-worth inward, rather than leaving it dependent on others' opinions.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “For a lot of women, we spend so much time upstairs in our heads as people-pleasers and over-analyzers, over-thinking and ruminating, trying to get things perfect. That’s the last place I should be, personally. I need to drop into my body and get out of my head.” – Mel Robbins
- “People reveal who they are and what they care about through their behavior. Ignore their words. Watch their behavior. Let people be who they are. Let them do what they’re going to do. Focusing on them is not where your power is.” – Mel Robbins
- “The difference between ‘not my business’ and ‘let them’ is worlds apart. When you say, ‘not my business’, you’re scolding yourself. With, ‘let them’, you’re in the power position because you see what’s happening and are choosing to allow it without allowing it. You’re rising above it.” – Mel Robbins
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Demotivators - https://despair.com/collections/
- Effin Birds on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/effinbirds/
- Van Morrison - https://www.vanmorrison.com/
- No Hard Feelings by the Avett Brothers - https://open.spotify.com/track/0bgQ1hQrpP6ScdBZlDfLE2
- Foo Fighters - https://foofighters.com/
- DePeche Mode - https://www.depechemode.com/
- The Cure - https://www.thecure.com/
- Taylor Swift - https://www.taylorswift.com/
- The 5 Second Rule: Transform Your Life, Work, and Confidence with Everyday Courage by Mel Robbins - https://amzn.to/427OHwu
- The Let Them Theory: A Life-Changing Tool That Millions of People Can't Stop Talking About by Mel Robbins - https://amzn.to/4hc53bE
- The Mel Robbins Podcast - https://www.melrobbins.com/podcast
- The Four Questions: For Henny Penny and Anybody with Stressful Thoughts by Byron Katie - https://amzn.to/3C7tKXT
When Listeners Say, “Me Too”: Finding Familiarity in Shared Stories – A Listener Voicemail Episode
Description:In this special listener voicemail episode, Jen and Amy turn the mic outward—listening closely to the voices, stories, and wisdom of the community that makes this show what it is.
From reflections sparked by our Wake Up Call season to deeply personal responses to Jen’s book Awake, these messages trace a powerful throughline: what happens when we begin to tell the truth about our lives—and make space for who we’re becoming.
Listeners share how conversations with Lee C. Camp, John Fugelsang, Melani Sanders, and Chrissy King stirred something awake in them, naming long-held questions around faith, body, identity, and courage. Others call in to reflect on the uncanny resonance of Awake, beginning again and again with the same line: “Jen, our stories are very similar.”
This episode is tender, funny, and honest—a reminder that none of us are doing this work alone. It’s about waking up, letting go, finding language for the ache, and choosing what comes next—together.
If you’ve ever wondered whether your voice matters here, this episode is your answer.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “Our stories are very similar—and hearing that out loud made me realize I’m not behind. I’m just in it.” – FTL Listener
- “I didn’t know how much I needed someone to say, ‘You’re allowed to change your mind,’ until this season.” – FTL Listener
- “That episode felt like someone finally put words to the questions I’ve been carrying quietly.” – FTL Listener
- “Something in me relaxed when I heard someone else say it first.” – FTL Listener
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Beyond Words: Listening to a Hidden Community — Ky Dickens and The Telepathy Tapes - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/unlocking-the-secrets-of-consciousness-and-telepathy-ky-dickens-and-the-telepathy-tapes/
- The Telepathy Tapes podcast - https://thetelepathytapes.com/
- Rick Rubin - https://x.com/RickRubin
- Elizabeth Gilbert - https://www.elizabethgilbert.com/
- Human Flourishing in a Distracted World: Theologian Lee C. Camp Offers a Wake Up Call To Living Well - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/human-flourishing-in-a-distracted-world-theologian-lee-c-camp-offers-a-wake-up-call-to-living-well/
- Love Over Dominance: John Fugelsang on the Future of Christianity - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/love-over-dominance-john-fugelsang-on-the-future-of-christianity/
- Social Media Sensation Melani Sanders Reminds Us That We Are Enough and We Do Not Care - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/social-media-sensation-melani-sanders-reminds-us-that-we-are-enough-and-we-do-not-care/
Description:
This month in the Jen Hatmaker Book Club, Jen is joined by novelist Eliana Ramage to talk about her stunning debut, To the Moon and Back—a book that is as page-turny as it is tender, and as expansive as it is rooted.
Jen and Eliana trace the actual arc of this book—how it began with an unforgettable spark of an idea at Dartmouth (about an “astronaut girl” who shows us that our stories aren’t static, and neither are our people) and how, over more than a decade, that idea became a novel about ambition, belonging, identity, and the complicated, beautiful gravity of connection.
In this conversation, Jen and Eliana explore a story centered on a young woman unraveling in the aftermath of loss, navigating complicated relationships, spiritual longing, and the quiet ache of wanting more than the life she’s been handed. They dig into the women at the center of the novel—the ones you’ll root for, the ones who will frustrate you (hi, ambition), and the ones who will linger long after you close the cover—and they unpack why the ending matters: not because it ties everything into neat bows, but because it honors what’s true. Because in real life, healing doesn’t land with fireworks. It lands with honesty. With restraint. With the choice to keep loving, even when certainty has slipped through our fingers.
This is a conversation about grieving honestly, questioning inherited beliefs, and staying awake to your own life. It’s about learning that connection matters more than performance—and trusting that the long arc of love and healing is still unfolding.
Whether you’re reading along with the book club or simply craving a thoughtful, soulful conversation to start the new year, this episode invites you to slow down, feel deeply, and remember: even in loss, even in doubt, we are still reaching—toward connection, toward each other, and back to ourselves.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “This is a story about women who are trying to understand who they are and move forward together after making some mistakes. That's where I definitely am right now. And if I could just finish this one thing that has been so hard for so many years, then it would be the first time I had done something that I could be really proud of.” – Eliana Ramage
- “I think in real life, you don't need to know that everything is all gonna be figured out at once. You need to land the plane on what matters. I don't think any of us, for our own lives, feel like we have that written out. And so there's some wiggle room on where we could go next, I think.”– Eliana Ramage
- “It’s become kind of a ritual to ask myself, can you believe that you're doing this job because your wildest dreams came true?”– Eliana Ramage
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Avid Reader Press - https://avidreaderpress.com/
- Fancy Lunch - https://tinyurl.com/3uyuxryf
- Joyride: A Memoir by Susan Orlean - https://amzn.to/49vTrhC
- The Uncool: A Memoir by Cameron Crowe - https://amzn.to/3LFmd7n
- Lily King - https://lilykingbooks.com/
- Reese Witherspoon book club pick - September 2025 - https://reesesbookclub.com/book/to-the-moon-and-back/
- Mid-America All Indian Center, Wichita, KS - https://www.theindianmuseum.org/
Description:Today we’re talking about something most of us sideline, postpone, or avoid entirely until life forces our hand: MONEY. This is a topic our host Jen Hatmaker knows all too well. For years, Jen let her then husband handle all of the bills, the budgeting, the taxes, the investments, everything. When she walked through divorce in midlife, she had to start from zero. It was humbling, terrifying, and ultimately deeply empowering.
We’re thrilled to bring you today’s guest: Jean Chatzky, bestselling author, Emmy-winning financial journalist, CEO of HerMoney, and host of the hugely popular HerMoney Podcast. Jean is one of America’s most trusted voices on personal finance, with decades spent breaking down complicated concepts into simple, actionable steps—especially for women who have historically been excluded from financial conversations.
In this discussion, we go straight to the questions so many of us have but don’t know how to ask: Where do you even start if finances feel overwhelming? How do you build confidence around money after years of letting someone else handle it? What does stability actually look like in midlife, especially for women navigating divorce, caregiving, career transitions, or reinvention?
We talk about the mechanics of getting your financial life organized, and the emotional stories women carry around worth, fear, and permission. Jean offers grounding guidance you can act on today—whether it’s tackling debt, starting to invest, or finally creating some safety and agency around your money.
If you’ve ever felt late to the financial game, intimidated by jargon, or unsure how to build security for the next chapter—this episode will meet you with compassion, clarity, and courage. Jean is a generous teacher, and we cannot wait for you to learn from her.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “This is one of those things that we absolutely can blame on our parents because we weren't raised in homes necessarily where women took the lead on finances. And we tend to model what we grew up with.” – Jean Chatzky
- “Women are an army of perfectionists and many of us don't like to do things until we know that we can do them correctly. And with money, there are some things where I can give you an answer. But if you ask me what's the best stock or what's the best mutual fund or what's the best investment strategy, I can give you an answer that's worked historically, but I can't give you a perfect answer. And a lot of us are just not comfortable with that.” – Jean Chatzky
- “I've been around a lot of people who've made a lot of money mistakes that are solvable. The one that's not solvable is not starting, because if you ask any older woman, what they wish they had done differently where their money is concerned, a hundred of them are gonna tell you, I wish I had started investing earlier.” – Jean Chatzky
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Jean Chatzky’s HerMoney Podcast – https://hermoney.com/t/podcasts/
- From Financially In the Dark to Fully In Control: Jen Hatmaker’s Wake-Up Call – https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/from-financially-in-the-dark-to-fully-in-control-jen/id1098802558?i=1000740622343
- Monarch money management app – https://www.monarch.com/
- Rocket Money –https://www.rocketmoney.com/
- Openbank High Yield Savings ...
Description:Many of us were taught that strength looks like independence. Don’t need too much. Don’t ask for help. Don’t lean on others. And then—somewhere along the way—we find ourselves lonely, exhausted, or quietly resentful, wondering why connection feels so hard and so heavy at the same time. We want closeness, but we’re afraid of needing too much. We want support, but we don’t know how to ask for it without losing ourselves.
Today’s guest is someone who has helped millions of people name that tension—and find a gentler, healthier way forward. Nedra Glover Tawwab is a licensed therapist, relationship expert, and New York Times bestselling author of Set Boundaries, Find Peace and Drama Free. With more than fifteen years of clinical experience, she has become one of the most trusted voices in modern mental health, helping people navigate boundaries, attachment, emotional health, and sustainable connection in real, everyday life.
Nedra ‘s work consistently meets people with clarity, compassion, and deep respect for how hard relationships can be. Her new book, The Balancing Act, invites us to rethink what healthy connection actually looks like—not as hyper-independence or over-functioning, but as learning how to depend on one another without disappearing in the process.
In this conversation, we talk about:
-
The major attachment styles and how they quietly shape our relationships- Why so many of us confuse independence with emotional health
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The dependency spectrum—and how to recognize where we’re over- or under-functioning
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When closeness crosses into enmeshment, and how to find your way back
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Gentle, practical first steps toward healthy dependency and asking for help
We honestly could not think of a better person to help us wake up in the area of mental health. This conversation is tender, honest, and deeply freeing—and it offers language for places you may have felt stuck, tired, or alone for a long time. You are not broken. You are learning how to connect.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
★ “You can be conflict-avoidant and peace-positive.” – Nedra Tawwab
★ “We have to allow people to exist as they are. And sometimes that's not in the same way as we exist.” – Nedra Tawwab
★ “The connection you’re seeking is on the other side of your discomfort.” – Nedra Tawwab
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
➢ The Balancing Act: Creating Healthy Dependency and Connection Without Losing Yourself by Nedra Tawwab – https://amzn.to/3Z77GEC
➢ Set Boundaries, Find Peace: A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself by Nedra Tawwab - https://amzn.to/49q8zg8
➢ Drama Free: A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships by Nedra Tawwab - https://amzn.to/4b3cSkh
➢ Nedra’s Quizzes - https://www.nedratawwab.com/quizzes
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://www.nedratawwab.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/nedratawwab/?hl=en
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/nedratawwab/
Substack - https://nedratawwab.substack.com/
Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/you-need-to-hear-this-with-nedra-tawwab/id1686288228
Connect with Jen!
Description:Sometimes a wake up call doesn’t arrive as a crisis. Sometimes it arrives as a quiet realization: the way I’m living isn’t actually working.
In this encore episode, we revisit a powerful conversation with James Clear, bestselling author of Atomic Habits, whose work has helped millions rethink how real, lasting change actually happens. Not through willpower, reinvention, or overnight transformation—but through the small, often invisible choices we make every day.
This conversation is a wake up call to the myth of “someday”, a wake up call to waiting for motivation before we act, and a wake up call to the belief that big change requires big drama.
James breaks down why habits are less about self-discipline and more about identity, environment, and systems—and how the patterns we repeat, often unconsciously, are shaping our lives for better or worse. Together, we explore how paying attention to what we practice daily can wake us up to the lives we’re actually building.
If you’re standing at the edge of change—feeling stuck in patterns you can’t seem to break, exhausted by self-improvement cycles, or longing for a more sustainable way forward—this episode offers a grounded, hopeful reset.
Let this be your wake up call to begin again, not perfectly, not dramatically, but honestly, intentionally, and one doable step at a time.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “The most powerful change doesn’t happen when you decide to achieve a goal—it happens when you decide to become a different kind of person. Every small habit is a vote for the identity you’re building, and over time those votes add up to who you believe you are.” — James Clear
- “You do not rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your systems.” — James Clear
- “If you can get 1% better every day for one year, you’ll end up thirty-seven times better.” — James Clear
- “Fix the inputs, and the outputs will fix themselves.” — James Clear
- “The goal isn’t to run a marathon. It’s to become a runner.” — James Clear
- “Lasting change isn’t about doing something perfectly or dramatically. It’s about showing up consistently in small ways, even when it feels insignificant, because that consistency is what makes transformation inevitable.”— James Clear
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones by James Clear - https://amzn.to/4pQLrh6
- James Clear’s 3-2-1 Newsletter - https://jamesclear.com/3-2-1
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://jamesclear.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jamesclear/
Twitter - https://x.com/jamesclear
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jamesclear
Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker
Description:This is your wake up call: your body was never the problem.
By midlife, so many women are exhausted—not just by life, but by decades of being told to manage, fix, discipline, and override our bodies. Wellness culture promised health and control. What it often delivered was shame, disconnection, and the quiet belief that rest, ease, and joy had to be earned.
Today’s conversation asks us to wake up to something different.
Chrissy King is a writer, educator, and body liberation advocate whose work exposes the harm baked into diet and fitness culture and offers a radically more honest path forward. One rooted in consent instead of control. Trust instead of punishment. Listening instead of fixing.
In this Wake Up Call episode, Chrissy opens our eyes to what happens when we stop treating our bodies like projects and start treating them like partners—especially in midlife, when our bodies are changing and asking us to pay attention. We unpack why rest is a biological need (not a reward), and how relearning how to listen can be a form of liberation.
This is a wake up call to the truth we’ve ignored: the body knows. It knows when something isn’t working. It knows when we’re depleted. It knows what it needs next. And when we learn to trust that wisdom—not just individually, but collectively—we don’t just heal our relationship with our bodies, we change the story entirely.
If your body has been tapping you on the shoulder, this episode is your invitation to listen.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “Society has conditioned women to put all of our value, effort, and energy into being the smallest version of ourselves possible. Then we have to spend the second half of our lives trying to unlearn that.” – Chrissy King
- “In ancient art, we see these big, beautiful bodies being immortalized and looked at as beautiful. So, how did we get to this point where we're demonizing people in larger bodies?” – Chrissy King
- “I think falling in love yourself is the most beautiful love story of all time.” - Chrissy King
- “The focus can't just be, do I feel good in my body? The focus has to be, is anybody in any body able to feel safe and respected and exist in their body free of harm? That's what the modern body positivity movement is really missing.” - Chrissy King
- “I think that we have to accept what our abilities are today, that what our bodies look like today is what it looks like today and tomorrow could be completely different. Bodies are designed to change.” - Chrissy King
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4qoLTnZ
- The Body Liberation Project: How Understanding Racism and Diet Culture Helps Cultivate Joy and Build Collective Freedom by Chrissy King - https://amzn.to/49m6TWn
- The Body is Not an Apology: The Power of Radical Self-Love by Sonya Renne Taylor - https://amzn.to/3YJyfQ9
- Fearing the Black Body: The Racial Origins of Fat Phobia by Dr. Sabrina Strings - https://amzn.to/49rmeoA
- White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism by Robin DiAngelo - https://amzn.to/3NyO75z
- Be The Bridge organization - https://bethebridge.com/
- We Were Never Meant to Have Universal Healthcare by Dr. Jess ...
Description:Today’s guest is someone who instantly made an impression on Jen when they met at a recent Hello Sunshine event in LosAngeles, when she moderated a Shine Away panel with Jen and beloved 9010 star and recent For the Love guest, Jennie Garth. Within five minutes Jen thought, “Okay… she’s one of us.” Warm, sharp, steady — Kanika Chadda-Gupta has this grounding presence that makes a whole room exhale.
An award-winning former CNN journalist and producer, Kanika built a thriving career in television news before motherhood rerouted her life in the most profound way. Born in India and raised in the U.S., her story is braided with themes so many of us know intimately: immigration and bicultural identity, the expectations women inherit, the invisible labor we carry, and the endless negotiation between ambition, caregiving, and our own becoming.
Today, Kanika is the creator and host of the beloved Total Mom Sense podcast, where she distills her lived experience — raising children while caring for aging parents, navigating mental and emotional load, reinventing purpose in midlife — into practical wisdom for women who are doing it all and feeling all of it.
In this conversation, we talk about what happens when life asks us to reevaluate our pace, our priorities, and the stories we’ve been handed about success. We discuss staying rooted inside seasons of huge responsibility, finding yourself in the middle of caregiving, and reclaiming a sense of agency and identity in motherhood and beyond. If you’ve ever felt stretched thin between generations, pulled in every direction, or unsure how to follow your own calling while caring for everyone else — Kanika’s clarity and compassion will feel like a deep breath. This one’s for all of us standing at the intersection of who we were, who we are, and who we’re still becoming.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- "I like getting the gold star from all of my teachers. I did all the AP classes. I hung out with my teachers at lunchtime. We had open lunch, and it was like you could go to McDonald's, or you could go across the street to the pizza place. But I would go sit with Ms. Townsend, my biology teacher, and just kick it.” – Kanika Chadda-Gupta
- "It may be, the only headlights that you see heading to the eye of the storm are the first responders and the reporters. And I thought, I want to be in the eye of the storm. I belong here. I need to be here. I need to prove myself. And so then I stayed.” – Kanika Chadda-Gupta
- "I was most surprised by how your kids will make you face your childhood trauma head on. My dad and I get along great now, but when we were younger, he would say things that really just shot my self-esteem. And those are the first things that come up when my kids do something wrong and I'm like, wow, I gotta reframe." – Kanika Chadda-Gupta
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Hello Sunshine Shine Away Conference 2025 – https://shineaway.hello-sunshine.com/event/eddb3575-ec80-4812-a371-354c900d7cbf/summary
- Jim Gaffigan, comedian – https://www.jimgaffigan.com/
- Mom Brain with Hilaria Baldwin and Daphne Oz - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mom-brain/id1438292826
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://kanikachaddagupta.com/
Instagram - https://ww ...
Description:Today, we’re stepping into the candlelit, corseted world of Victorian England with New York Times bestselling author Madeline Martin—a master of emotionally rich, meticulously researched historical fiction. Madeline’s novels (The Last Bookshop in London, The Librarian Spy, The Keeper of Hidden Books) have introduced millions of readers to hidden corners of history where ordinary people wield books as lifelines, rebellion, and hope. Her latest work and our December JHBC pick, The Secret Book Society, is no exception.
Set in an era when women were warned that reading could “inflame the imagination,” The Secret Book Society follows Lady Duxbury—a thrice-widowed countess trailed by scandalous whispers—who covertly gathers a small circle of women for tea…and contraband literature. What begins as shared curiosity blooms into a daring underground society where women read the stories they’ve been forbidden, claim a power they’ve been denied, and build the kind of sisterhood that can spark a quiet revolution.
In this conversation, we pull back the velvet curtain on:
- how real Victorian restrictions inspired her fictional rebellion
- the archival rabbit holes that uncovered surprising truths about women, reading, and resistance
- the power of “found family” in times of surveillance, judgment, and constraint
- why stories become sanctuaries when the world demands silence
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “Reading can really provide such lightness in dark times.” – Madeline Martin
- “Every book that I've written, I have been to the location where it is set. And I've been able to get that really wonderful firsthand experience of being there. I feel like it takes this black and white world and colors it in this really vivid, wonderful way that lets me accurately convey it onto the book for hopefully what makes for a very evocative read for the reader.” – Madeline Martin
- “If you read a book and it's so good you can't put it down, you read it over the course of a weekend, and you can viscerally recall every part of that story, from what the character drank and ate, to what they wore, to that snarky little one-liner that they gave the antagonist. But if you took six months to read that book, you might have a different experience. So for me, when I get to write that book in one month, it's like I'm living in their skin, and I'm living in their heads.” – Madeline Martin
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Outlander by Diana Gabaldon - https://amzn.to/4iv5e3C
- The Last Bookshop in London: A Novel of World War II by Madeline Martin - https://amzn.to/4pKU0uq
- For the Love: Fighting for Grace in a World of Impossible Standards by Jen Hatmaker – https://amzn.to/48AqikP
- A Time of Witches: A Novel by Madeline Martin – https://amzn.to/3MBpnJl
- The Forgotten Pages by Madeline Martin – coming 2027
- Goodreads 2025 Reading Challenge – https://www.goodreads.com/readingchallenges?ref=rc_summerreading_25
- The Hope Keeper: A Novel by Heather Webb –https://amzn.to/48uJkc2
- The Lotus Shoes: A Novel by Jane Yang – https://amzn.to/447ANuy
Guest’s Li ...
Description:Buckle up, friends — today’s episode is a whole ride in the best possible way. Our guest is Melani Sanders, the founder of the global We Do Not Care Movement™, a viral sisterhood of women who are reclaiming humor, agency, and sanity in the absolute circus that is perimenopause, menopause, and midlife.
Melani went from full-time mom of three to an overnight cultural phenomenon when a candid little reel she posted — “If you are in perimenopause, menopause, and beyond and simply do not care much anymore, let me hear from you” — blew up the internet and awakened millions of women who said, “Oh… same.” What began as one moment of honesty became a movement, a community, and now a book called The Official We Do Not Care Club Handbook,
A hysterectomy in 2024 sent Melani into early perimenopause, and suddenly everything she knew about her mind and body went off the rails. A meltdown in a Whole Foods parking lot became her personal wake-up call — the moment she stopped spiraling, started laughing, and began telling the unvarnished truth about hormone chaos, identity shifts, brain fog, midlife rage, caregiving, and the mental load women carry without complaint.
In today’s conversation, we talk about what perimenopause really feels like, how midlife reshapes our relationships and self-perception, and why humor can be a lifeline when your hormones are staging a coup. We also explore what it looks like to drop shame, release the pressure to hold it all together, and embrace this wild, transformative season with honesty, community, and a big ol’ dose of “we simply do not care.”
If you’re in perimenopause, menopause, or that hazy middle place where your brain, body, and identity are all renegotiating the terms — this episode will feel like being seen and understood. Melani is a treasure, and we cannot wait for you to meet her.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “When you get off your period, you have maybe a good week and a half where you can laugh and engage with everyone. But with perimenopause and menopause and beyond, it's every day. So, if I throw a shoe, I'm sorry. I did what I did, you know? Lock me up.” – Melani Sanders
- “I can't niche down because I'm too freaking much.” – Melani Sanders
- “I'm not big on attention. I don’t want all eyes on me. I'm typically the mom that will set things up and make it beautiful and then sit at the back of the room where you'll never know that it's me. I want to be able to open the door for my sisters and while they go out there and do it.” – Melani Sanders
- “Humor can be so healing. We need it. The second we lose our ability to laugh, we are in real trouble.” – Jen Hatmaker
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- We Do Not Care Club – https://wedonotcareclub.com/
- The Official We Do Not Care Club Handbook: A Hot-Mess Guide for Women in Perimenopause, Menopause, and Beyond Who Are Over It by Melani Sanders – https://amzn.to/3MC9BxS
- Ashwagandha Supplement – https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/grocery/search?k=ashwagandha+supplements
- Harper Collins, Harvest imprint – https://www.harpercollins.com/pages/harvest
- The We Do Not Care Movement - A Glimpse Into How It All Started – https://www.facebook.com/melani.sanders/videos/1445359516454880/
Guest’s Links:
Description:What happens after the dream you built your life around ends?
In today’s tender and searching conversation, Jen and Amy sit down with acclaimed novelist Ben Markovits to talk about his forthcoming book, The Rest of Our Lives—a story that lingers in the quiet spaces of midlife, marriage, parenting, friendship, and the quiet reckonings that arrive when the future you imagined no longer fits. The book is so spectacular, it has been shortlisted as a finalist for the illustrious Booker Prize.
Together, the trio explores what happens when the life you worked toward doesn’t quite deliver what you expected—and how that reckoning ripples through family, intimacy, and identity. Ben speaks honestly about ambition, and the grief of letting go of former selves, while also naming the surprising beauty found in showing up for the people you love in ordinary, unglamorous moments. He and Jen talk about the similarities between the fictional story that he wrote and the real-life account that Jen penned in Awake.
This episode is for anyone standing in the middle of their life, caring for children or parents (or both), wondering how to hold disappointment without becoming hardened—and how to love the life in front of you without pretending it’s easy. It’s a conversation about endurance, tenderness, and the brave, ongoing work of choosing one another as the years keep unfolding.
If you’ve ever asked yourself, Is this really it?—and then quietly hoped the answer might still be no, not yet—this one is for you.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “The author of Anatomy of a Murder said that writing a novel is like driving on a mountain road late at night. You should know where you're trying to get to, and you should be able to see 30 yards in advance. I guess I have some sense of where I want to get to and then I spend a lot of time watching the next 30 yards.” – Ben Markovits
- “I like to write about characters who feel like the place they have made for themselves in the world doesn't totally express their sense of who they are.” – Ben Markovits
- I love the way you write all the backstories of everything because I'm someone who wants to ask 20 questions about what was the furniture in the in-laws beach house like and how did that shape the family dynamic that he married into? Which if you, if you ask all those questions, you sound a little crazy. But actually, you answered all of my questions as I was reading. – Amy Hardin
- “At a certain point in marriage, you have your fingerprints all over each other.” – Ben Markovits
- “I love when characters are human, flawed, curious, confused, just really working out their own story. I'm drawn to stories like that that aren't necessarily tidy.” – Jen Hatmaker
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- The Rest of Our Lives: A Novel by Ben Markovits – https://amzn.to/4qanlhM
- The Booker Prizes | Ben Markovits – https://thebookerprizes.com/the-booker-library/authors/ben-markovits
- Anatomy of a Murder by Robert Traver – https://amzn.to/3YAUTKc
- Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker – https://amzn.to/4qaARlw
- Phineas Redux by Anthony Trollope – https://amzn.to/4qiOPSN
Description:What if the most faithful thing we could do right now is simply pay attention?
In this episode of For the Love, Jen and Amy sit down with theologian, ethics professor, and artist Lee C. Camp for a soulful conversation about the kind of faith that wakes us up to what truly matters. As part of our Wake Up Call series on faith, Lee invites us to slow down and notice the world—our lives, our neighbors, and the beauty that keeps trying to reach us.
Together, they explore why paying attention is not a luxury but a spiritual practice—and how our obsession with productivity, planning, and certainty can cause us to miss the most beautiful and formative parts of our lives. Lee reflects on what it means to know ourselves as deeply beloved by God, not because of what we produce but because love is the starting point of a life well lived.
This conversation traces the threads of human flourishing and imagination, and asks why beauty—found in art, nature, poetry, and story—often teaches us more about God than arguments ever could. As he often does on his own No Small Endeavor podcast, Lee challenges us to consider what Christians are being called to wake up to in this season: a renewed attention to community, to creation, and to a church that is something we practice together, not merely something we attend.
If you’re longing for a faith that feels grounded, spacious, and alive—one that helps you live a good life in the world you actually inhabit—this episode is a gentle, necessary wake-up call.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “What Christianity most needs right now is to rediscover the basics of the beautiful story which we claim to believe.” – Lee C. Camp
- The model of the cross means that if we take up our cross and follow Christ, that we can expect difficulty because so much of human history doesn't want that kind of way. Religious powers don't want that. Imperialist powers don't want that. And so we can trust that we're going to have our own kind of crosses to bear along the way. And yet that life has triumphed over death. That love has triumphed over hatred. that beauty and truth and goodness has triumphed over hostility and ugliness and meanness. And so that's the big story.” – Lee C. Camp
- I deeply understand why a lot of people just can't believe all this [religious] stuff. But for me, it, the story at its best. is so beautiful that I don't know why everybody doesn't want to believe it, even if they can't believe it. It's this place we embody this narrative, embody this beauty, embody this brokenness in which we try to find tangible ways to do life together.” – Lee C. Camp
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Jen Hatmaker on Lee Camp’s No Small Endeavor podcast | Jen Hatmaker: When Everything Breaks: Grief, Growth, and Human Flourishing – https://www.nosmallendeavor.com/jen-hatmaker-when-everything-breaks-grief-growth-and-human-flourishing
- No Small Endeavor Podcast – https://www.nosmallendeavor.com/
- Munther Isaac: Palestinian Christian Pastor on War, Hope, and Love –https://www.nosmallendeavor.com/munther-isaac-palestinian-christian-pastor-on-war-hope-and-love
- Munther Isaac Sermon | Christ in the Rubble – youtube.com/watch?si=zK8OKK_xGMZR64ZD&v=ZPTrmN6Dzmw&feature=youtu.be
Description:As we close out the year, we wanted to do something a little different—and a little more tender.
In this special end-of-year episode of For the Love, we’re turning the mic over to you. Over the past months, your voicemails have poured in, telling the story of what it’s been like to read Awake: the unraveling, the naming, the grief, the relief, the courage, the slow return to yourself. The messages were so honest and so resonant that we knew we needed to play some of them back—not just to honor the people who shared them, but to remind anyone listening in a similar space that they are not alone.
We’ve woven these voices together in four acts, tracing the arc so many of us recognize.
Act I — “The Moment Everything Broke”
We hear from Nadine, Allison, and Sharon about the before-and-after moments: marriages ending, bodies shamed, the deep wounds of purity culture, and the rupture that comes when the life you were living can no longer hold.
Act II — “Finding Language for the Ache”
Paulette and Inez share what it means to finally name what couldn’t be named before—untangling attachment and codependence, wrestling with faith, Jesus, and the pain of church rupture, and discovering words for a long-held ache.
Act III — “Coming Back to Ourselves”
With Kelly and Laura, we witness what healing can look like in motion: reclaiming agency, inhabiting our bodies again, joy returning, learning to cherish yourself, embracing life, committing to therapy, finding community, and being truly seen.
Act IV — “Witnessing a Life Over Time”
Tracy closes us out with the long view—what it means to trust the slow arc of a life, to be held in shared history, and to witness change unfolding over time.
If something in you woke up this year—even painfully—you’re not behind. You’re right on time. And you are certainly not alone.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “Here’s to cherishing ourselves. We have so much to cherish.” – Kelly, For the Love listener
- “If you’re willing to believe a voice from the future who has been sitting exactly where you are sitting…There is something after this story, even though you can't see that, something good is still coming for you.” – Jen Hatmaker
- “Everyone's experience can be a lantern to someone else.” – Amy Hardin
- “This is how it goes. This is how people are inspired and moved. This is how we lend courage to one another by saying our things out loud. And that is literally how my life moved. I listened to other people who were saying their thing out loud and I just was just sitting there quietly listening, going, I wonder if this is something I could consider.” – Jen Hatmaker
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Awake: A Memoirby Jen Hatmaker – https://amzn.to/44U2DuL
- Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself by Melody Beattie – https://amzn.to/48UTYcn
- Jen Hatmaker Book Club – https://shop.jenhatmaker.com/collections/book-club?srsltid=AfmBOooHcTDRzkwfxjaozkEQyYWtFpthqUtOcFwOOiSYTqO7fCTbaEsb
Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmaker
Description:Today’s guest, Suleika Jaouad, first captured our collective hearts with her searing memoir Between Two Kingdoms — a book that traced her diagnosis of leukemia, the brutal treatment that followed, and the long, complicated journey of coming home to herself again. It was a Jen Hatmaker Book Club selection back in March 2023, and it has stayed with so many of us.
Suleika is an Emmy Award–winning journalist, bestselling author, speaker, and artist whose work asks some of the biggest questions humans ever face: What does it mean to live when life has been shattered? How do we hold hope and devastation at the same time? What does healing actually look like when recovery isn’t linear, or even guaranteed?
She is also the founder of The Isolation Journals, a global creative community of more than 100,000 writers, artists, and curious souls who use storytelling and imagination as tools for transformation. Her latest book, The Book of Alchemy, feels is a continuation of her journey — filled with essays, prompts, and reflections from over 100 contributors across disciplines. It’s an invitation to explore how we turn pain into meaning, uncertainty into beauty, and our lives into art.
Suleika speaks so generously about what it means to live in the middle — between diagnosis and remission, despair and joy, isolation and connection — and how storytelling helps us metabolize what we’ve lived through. Whether you’re a writer, an artist, someone who’s walking through your own valley, or simply trying to make sense of your story, this episode will speak to you.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- There is no right or wrong way to journal. There are no rules. You don’t have to be a good writer. I think it's why journaling appeals to me so much. – Suleika Jaouad
- I really try to make the journal a sacred space where I get to be my most unedited, most chaotic self. – Suleika Jaouad
- When I'm not trying to be efficient or productive is when I often end up having my best ideas because I’m not controlling, I'm not pushing, I'm not muscling my way through. – Suleika Jaouad
- When I stop making certainty or perfection the goal, it releases me from measuring myself against how far I am from that goal. And I get to be more present in what's happening now. – Suleika Jaouad
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- American Symphony documentary on Netflix – https://www.netflix.com/title/81728930
- The Book of Alchemy: A Creative Practice for an Inspired Life by Suleika Jaouad – https://amzn.to/3KPqWTD
- The Art of Survival | In living with cancer, Suleika Jaouad has learned to wrench meaning from our short time on Earth by Jennifer Senior | The Atlantic – https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2024/06/suleika-jaouad-writer-health-cancer/678210/?utm_campaign=the-atlantic&utm_content=edit-promo&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook
- Between Two Kingdoms: A Memoir of a Life Interrupted by Suleika Jaouad – https://amzn.to/48KO9y5
- The Isolations Journals on Substack – https://theisolationjournals.substack.com/
- Jon Batiste< ...
Description:
In this live, wide-ranging conversation, Jen Hatmaker is joined by bestselling author and civic educator Sharon McMahon (Sharon Says So) for an honest, funny, and deeply grounding discussion about truth, courage, faith, and what it means to stay awake in uncertain times.
Beginning with Sharon joining Jen on stage, the two explore everything from dating after divorce and the wisdom of grandmothers, to how fear and misinformation shape our public life. They reflect on history as a guide, the importance of joy as resistance, and why living fully—especially in anxious seasons—is not a betrayal of others’ suffering.
Jen also shares hard-won insight about friendship in midlife, faith after certainty, and the real cost of telling the truth. Together, Jen and Sharon remind us that while waking up is disruptive, staying asleep costs more—and that we don’t have to navigate this moment alone.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “You are not helping anybody by being paralyzed in a state of fear and joylessness.”— Sharon McMahon
- “There have been people who came before us who lived through so much—and they left their lanterns on the path.” — Sharon McMahon
- “You do not owe the world a state of paralyzation and fear.”— Sharon McMahon
- “One friend can love you back to life. One is enough.” — Jen Hatmaker
- “Too hard is living asleep at the wheel.”— Jen Hatmaker
- “I don’t see good fruit from this tree.” — Jen Hatmaker
- “God is not constrained to a building. I didn’t lose Jesus.” — Jen Hatmaker
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
➢ Awake by Jen Hatmaker
➢ Me Talk Pretty One Day by David Sedaris
➢ The Middle Place by Kelly Corrigan
➢ Works by Anne Lamott
➢ Harriet Tubman (historical reference)
Guest’s Links:
Sharon’s Website– https://sharonmcmahon.com/
Sharon’s Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/sharonsaysso
Sharon’s Substack – https://thepreamble.com/
Sharon’s Podcast – https://sharonmcmahon.com/podcast
Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker
The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.
Description:Peace can feel elusive — globally, socially, personally. So what does it look like to reclaim it? And how do we rise when everything feels beyond dead?
In this encore episode, we look back on one of our most galvanizing conversations from our For the Love of Peace series with Father James Martin — Jesuit priest, bestselling author, and one of the most trusted spiritual voices in America.
Together, Jen and Father Martin explore what a centuries-old story still teaches us today. Rooted in the raising of Lazarus, their discussion unfolds into a modern invitation:
What are we willing to let die so that we can live?
Drawing on grief, mystery, advocacy, and the disruptive tenderness of Jesus, this conversation reaches for peace in the places that feel buried — in the church, in our communities, in ourselves. They talk candidly about:
- why Jesus still disorients us (and why that’s good)
- the comfort and challenge of real resurrection
- why faith should push us toward the margins, not away from them
- and how letting old patterns die brings us closer to peace
If you’re hungry for spiritual clarity, exhausted by harmful religion, or longing for a God who feels like a deep breath — this episode is a balm. Father Martin’s humanity and integrity remind us what faith can still be: hopeful, liberating, trustworthy. May this encore meet you where you are — in grief, confusion, curiosity, or longing — and call you to come forth into peace, presence, and new life.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “We’re called to reach out to people who feel—and who are—marginalized and excluded. That’s pretty clear in the gospels. For Jesus there’s no ‘us and them,’ there’s just ‘us.’ He’s about making the community into an us.” — Father James Martin
- “Jesus is fully human and fully divine. And it’s the fully human part that a lot of people have a hard time with. He weeps, he gets frustrated, he gets tired — and we have to keep those two things in tension, because if we lose sight of either one we risk not really understanding who he is.”— Father James Martin
- “What are the things in my life — patterns, behaviors, resentments — that I have to let die? What do I want to leave in the tomb? And can I trust that God is calling me to something new?” — Father James Martin
- “So much of the Christian message is forgiveness — letting resentment, bitterness, and grudges die. That does lead to peace. ‘Peace be with you’ isn’t just comfort — it’s invitation, it’s transformation, it’s listening to God and letting things go.”— Father James Martin
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Inspired: Slaying Giants, Walking on Water, and Loving the Bible Again by Rachel Held Evans - https://amzn.to/494t9Uo
- The Jesuit Guide to (Almost) Everything: A Spirituality for Real Life by Father James Martin -https://amzn.to/3Kn8KAI
- Learning to Pray: A Guide for Everyone by Father James Martin – https://amzn.to/44nfAwK
Description:Today we’re talking to someone whose work really hits right where we live this year — in that messy middle space where you know you need joy, but you’re not totally sure how to find your way back to it. Sarah Catherine “SC” Perot created Styles of Joy, which is genuinely one of the most grounding, practical, soul-forward frameworks we’ve encountered in a long time.
SC is an author, speaker, Vanderbilt professor, and self-proclaimed joy enthusiast whose work explores how we reclaim joy in seasons of transition, loss, rebuilding, and reinvention. Her debut book blends personal storytelling, cultural observation, and her CAPS Framework—Cultivate, Adopt, Protect, and Spread—a blueprint for understanding how joy works in us, around us, and through us.
In this conversation, we talk about reclaiming joy after difficult seasons, the identity shifts that come with major life transitions, the science and soulfulness of joy, and why small, daily practices matter more than we think. SC brings brilliance, compassion, and practicality to a topic that often feels elusive, reminding us that joy isn’t something we “earn” — it’s something we can cultivate and choose, even in the midst of imperfect lives.
If you’ve been craving a reset, a reorientation, or just a little more light in your day, this episode is a beautiful place to begin.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “Music is like a scent that can transport us back in time. We have so many memories bookmarked in our heads.” – SC Perot
- “Joy can meet us in our quiet moments. It can meet us at a concert in a room full of people drowned in confetti. And it can meet us anywhere in between.” – SC Perot
- “The heat I was getting in my DMs, people are saying, have you lost your mind? You used to be on the straight and narrow. What has happened to you? What is with the feather boas?” – SC Perot
- “If we know we can tee ourselves up for productivity and if we know we can tee ourselves up for healthy decision making, why would we also not give joy a shot first thing in the morning?” – SC Perot
- “Joy can start small, just as hope does.” – SC Perot
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Styles of Joy: A Feel-Good Framework for Rediscovering Joy (with a Twist!) by SC Perot – https://amzn.to/48yUooy
- Harry Styles – https://www.hstyles.co.uk/
- The Joy Hotline – https://www.scperot.com/joy-hotline/
- Make Your Bed: Little Things That Can Change Your Life...And Maybe the World by Admiral William H. McRaven – https://amzn.to/4oC3iYK
- Unlocking the Secrets of Consciousness and Telepathy: Ky Dickens and The Telepathy Tapes - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/unlocking-the-secrets-of-consciousness-and-telepathy-ky-dickens-and-the-telepathy-tapes/
- Jen Hatmaker | Advent Week One: The Light of Hope – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obh3zvna-ng
- Elizabeth Gilbert Oprah show botox post on Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/p/CCyHEtZh8DG/
- Tom Holland “Umbrella” Lip Sync Battle – https:/ ...
Description:
If you’ve been lucky enough to stumble upon ‘The Keeper of Lost Things’ the bestselling debut novel by British author Ruth Hogan, you know exactly why it captured our hearts and was selected as our JHBC November Fireside Read selection. This book is a whimsical, tender, and deeply human story about a man who collects seemingly insignificant lost objects — and the woman who inherits both his home and this strange little mission. As she begins to return these “lost things” to their owners, we discover that every object holds a story, every story holds a loss, and every loss holds a little bit of light.
Ruth’s own story is just as moving — she began writing after recovering from a serious car accident, during a time when she felt a bit lost herself. And from that season came this debut novel that went on to charm readers all over the world. This book feels like a love letter to brokenness — to the idea that what’s been lost can still be redeemed. It’s a generous, tender book — one that invites us to look closer at the world around us and remember that meaning lives everywhere, even in the smallest things.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “I was one of those people who thought, ‘I'll write a book one day… it'll happen one day.’ But you should never wait for one day. You should get on with it.” – Ruth Hogan
- “You can't control what life throws at you but you can control what you do with it.” – Ruth Hogan
- “I think I write in quite an unusual way, speaking to other authors. I don't worry about planning and plotting. I like it to just come out organically. I will sit down, the story is in my head and it will come out. But what I do do is I edit chapter by chapter, which is a very bizarre way of working. And I'm so finicky that sometimes I can't move on if one word isn't right.” – Ruth Hogan
- “I'm a great believer that the universe will tell you the right thing to do.” – Ruth Hogan
- “I love to explore the emotional attachment that we form with objects. And I think it's all about maintaining connections. We will give an object disproportionate significance because it relates to a person that we loved or a memory or a place. I think we all do that. all have objects and we have connections to these objects that make them much more valuable than their intrinsic worth.” – Ruth Hogan
- “In one of my other books I described my characters as being ‘cracked in the kiln’. Those are the people that I'm interested in. I'm not interested in perfect people. I'm interested in the people who are lost, who have made mistakes. I love that idea of people being repaired and being more beautiful and more valuable because of their life experience.” – Ruth Hogan
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- The Keeper of Lost Things: A Novel by Ruth Hogan - https://amzn.to/4nGYy3p
- To the Sea by Train: The Golden Age of Railway Travel by Andrew Martin - https://amzn.to/3Jl7fT5
- The Secret of Secrets: A Novel by Dan Brown - https://amzn.to/4oQTx9j
- The Golden Hour by Kate Lord Brown - https://amzn.to/4qMvslX
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://www.ruthhogan.co.uk/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/ruthmariehoganauthor/
Description:In this Road Tripping episode, Jen is joined by one of her dearest friends — the brilliant and beloved author and interviewer, Kelly Corrigan. Kelly read Awake cover to cover (twice!) and came armed to the live Awake Book Tour event in Denver, Colorado with ten of her favorite lines from the book, inviting Jen to riff on each one in real time. What unfolds is a night of belly laughs, truth-telling, and deep reflection on faith, patriarchy, divorce, parenting adult kids, therapy, rebuilding your life, and why middle age is actually the most freeing chapter yet.
This conversation is Jen and Kelly at their absolute best: funny, wise, irreverent, and wide open.
- Growing up inside patriarchal faith systems and the lifelong impact of being taught not to trust your own intuition
- Why Jen believes that curiosity has never led her wrong — but that certainty has led her down many dead ends
- The moment that Jen realized the patriarchy harms everyone, including the men and boys she loves
- How purity culture can shape (and warp) our early ideas about sex, marriage, and womanhood
- Parenting through divorce and the shift from coaching to comforting
- Therapy breakthroughs around conflict, attachment styles, codependency, and dropping the need to control others’ emotions
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “Curiosity has never led me wrong. Certainty has led me down so many dead ends.” —Jen Hatmaker
- “Patriarchy messed both of us up. Neither one of us was meant to live inside those roles.” —Jen Hatmaker
- “When you try to rush your kids through their hard feelings, they feel abandoned. Comfort over coaching — that’s where we live.” —Jen Hatmaker
- “I’m not your leader. I’m your sister. This book isn’t a prescription. It’s my story handed to you with open hands.” —Jen Hatmaker
- “Sometimes the worst thing that ever happens ends up becoming the best thing. Not because of the pain — but because of the life that blooms afterward.” —Jen Hatmaker
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker – https://amzn.to/440b5YW
- Tell Me More: Stories About the 12 Hardest Things I'm Learning to Say by Kelly Corrigan – https://amzn.to/4an9rUX
- The Middle Place by Kelly Corrigan – https://amzn.to/49Xueyt
- Kelly Corrigan Wonders podcast – https://www.kellycorrigan.com/podcast
- Who Is Government?: The Untold Story of Public Service by Michael Lewis – https://amzn.to/4pLC3Md
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://www.kellycorrigan.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kellycorrigan
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/kelly.corrigan.376
Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@kellycorriganvideo
Podcast - https://www.kellycorrigan.com/podcast
Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Description:
In this special Road Tripping episode, Jen invites her partner, actor/activist/author Tyler Merritt, to join her live after a last-minute schedule pivot. What unfolds is a night of honesty, hilarity, vulnerability, and deep connection.
Jen reads two scenes from Awake—one from the earliest days of shock and grief, and one from the chaotic, hilarious adventure of dating again at midlife. She shares the moment her body finally allowed her to grieve, the unexpected relief that followed, and how storytelling helped rebuild her life from the inside out.
Tyler joins her onstage and opens up about his own journey: discovering creativity as a kid in a sports household, what midlife has taught him, how his rare cancer diagnosis reshaped his priorities, and how their love story began on a night in New York City neither saw coming. He and Jen talk candidly about walking through illness together, finding joy even in hard seasons, and why Awake speaks to all genders—not just women.
This episode is tender, funny, surprising, and deeply human—a reminder that grief can crack us open in ways that eventually let the light back in.
★ “My body bypassed my mind and gave itself the gift of grief.” — Jen Hatmaker (reading from Awake)
★ “If creativity is in you, you can’t get rid of it. It will find its way out.” — Tyler Merritt (on discovering his storytelling voice)
★ “Middle age shortens your alphabet — you just have fewer Fs to give.” — Tyler Merritt (describing midlife clarity)
★ “You don’t just get my story of cancer — you get yours, because you chose to love me.” — Tyler Merritt (on his cancer journey and their relationship)
★ “Some of the hardest things you’ve ever been through? You made it. You’re still here.” — Tyler Merritt (reflecting on resilience and survival)
➢ Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4rjitZ7➢ This Changes Everything: A Surprisingly Funny Story About Race, Cancer, Faith, and Other Things We Don’t Talk About by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/4ilNtnh➢ Simple Habit meditation app (referenced in the grief scene) - https://www.simplehabit.com/➢ Corey Muscara (meditation guide Jen listened to) – https://corymuscara.com/➢ The Tyler Merritt Project – https://thetylermerrittproject.com/➢ Waitress: The Musical (where Jen and Tyler first met) – https://waitressthemusical.com/
Website – https://thetylermerrittproject.com/Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/thetylermerrittproject/Twitter – https://x.com/ttmprojectFacebook – https://www.facebook.com/thetylermerrittprojectYouTube – https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPB48_JfK-VMnYQPTYyMX5Q
Jen’s Website – https://jenhatmaker.com/Jen’s Instagram – https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter – https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/Jen’s Facebook – https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube – https://www.you ...
Introducing: unPAUSED with Dr. Mary Claire Haver
Dr. Mary Claire Haver, a bestselling author, board-certified Obstetrician-Gynecologist, Certified Menopause Practitioner, and women’s health advocate, is already known for transforming conversations about midlife and menopause. Now, she is extending her reach with her new podcast, unPAUSED, to share her expertise and empower even more women.
On unPAUSED, Dr. Haver hosts candid, encouraging conversations about what it means to truly thrive during every stage of womanhood. This is about living life fully—no more pausing our lives, feeling invisible, or suffering in silence. Each weekly episode features a diverse lineup of guests, including medical experts, CEOs, and risk-takers, as they delve into universally relevant topics: from health and hormones to identity, relationships, and the experience of reinventing oneself in this next chapter. Listeners will come away from every episode feeling informed, seen, and inspired to live life unpaused.
Check out this trailer for unPAUSED and subscribe today so you don’t miss an episode.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- What I hear from women everyday is that they want more for themselves, yet here’s the reality – as women, we’ve been expected to serve and fade. We were raised to believe that our values lie in how much we give, how quiet we stay, and how well we put everyone else’s needs before our own. And then, when we hit midlife, the world looks away. But women are waking up and saying, ‘hell no!’” – Dr. Mary Claire Haver
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- unPAUSED with Dr. Mary Claire Haver - https://thepauselife.com/pages/the-unpaused-podcast
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://thepauselife.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/drmaryclaire/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/drmaryclaire/
TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@drmaryclaire
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@drmaryclaire
Podcast - https://thepauselife.com/pages/the-unpaused-podcast
Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker
The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.
Description:
In today’s mind-bending episode, prepare to challenge everything you think you know. Today, we're inviting listeners into a radically inclusive conversation that reimagines ideas about communication, consciousness, and human connection.
Award-winning filmmaker and storyteller Ky Dickens joins us to discuss The Telepathy Tapes, her viral podcast documenting the lived experiences of nonspeaking individuals who communicate in ways long dismissed or misunderstood. Through careful listening, deep respect, and investigative rigor, the series challenges entrenched assumptions about intelligence, language, and who gets to be heard—and believed.
In conversation with hosts Jen and Amy, Ky explores how nonspeakers are expanding our understanding of connection beyond spoken language, giving insight into telepathic communication and shared consciousness. The episode centers the voices of a community historically excluded from public discourse and asks what becomes possible when we widen our definition of communication, dignity, and belonging.
Rather than sensationalizing the unexplained, this conversation treats nonspeakers as authoritative narrators of their own experiences—inviting listeners to confront ableism, reexamine bias, and consider how inclusion begins with attention.
Highlights from this Episode:
- How nonspeaking individuals are redefining communication and agency
- Dismissed yet fascinating topics like energy healing, animal communication, mediumship, and near-death experiences
- “The Hill”: a shared metaphysical space described by nonspeakers as a site of connection
- What these experiences reveal about consciousness, presence, and the enduring human need to belong
This episode is a powerful act of listening—one that expands empathy, affirms marginalized voices, and challenges audiences to imagine a more inclusive understanding of what it means to communicate and connect.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “Maybe instead of fixing the brokenness in society, I should focus on fixing the brokenness in me and in humanity.” – Ky Dickens
- “I don't think it's binary that people have to be that dogmatic about science, and we don't have to believe in everything. I think most of us are somewhere in the middle. We want to really investigate and understand the truth about the non-physical world, and it's not silly or unscientific or gullible to do so. I think it's a beautiful part of being alive.” – Ky Dickens
- “One thing I have come to realize deeply is that science and spirituality are not enemies.” – Ky Dickens
- “I have not met a single non-speaker who doesn't talk about people who've passed and about the very real existence of God in an afterlife.” – Ky Dickens
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- The Telepathy Tapes – https://thetelepathytapes.com/
- BT Harman - https://btharman.com/welcome
- Dr. Diane Hennacy Powell – https://drdianehennacy.com/
- Elizabeth Gilbert – https://www.elizabethgilbert.com/
- Rick Rubin - https://x.com/RickRubin
- Gregory Shushan – https://www.gregoryshushan.com/
Description:
We’re revisiting one of our most-loved conversations from this show—an exploration of how transformation takes shape in our lives and how we can bravely meet it, even when it’s terrifying.
In this encore episode, we look back on Jen’s conversation with poet and community-builder Joy Sullivan, whose own “chosen change” became a leap toward more sanity, more love, and more joy.
After years of living according to scripts written by others, Joy found herself standing at a crossroads, feeling the pull of something deeper and more true. What followed was a radical leap into the unknown—a move that reshaped her life, her faith, and her art, including her book ‘Instructions for Traveling West’ – a collection for anyone flinging themselves into their own fresh starts.
Together, she and Jen talk about the “incremental scoots” we make before the big leap, the beauty and ache of reinvention, and how stillness can become a sacred space for clarity. Joy shares her story of walking into the unknown and learning to trust her intuition along the way.
In this episode, we reflect on:
- The difference between a change that happens to us and one we choose
- Embracing loneliness and stillness as paths to self-discovery
- Lessons that taught Joy to love herself more deeply
- Why poetry gives language to what we cannot say aloud
If you’re feeling the pull toward something new but uncertain, this encore offers a gentle reminder that change—though often uncomfortable—is where our truest selves begin to emerge.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- "If the birds know how to migrate, if bears know when to hibernate, if nature knows when to move forward, it doesn't make any sense for us to not know that also." – Joy Sullivan
- "It's so important to listen and to follow the rhythms that we're pulled to even if we don't know what we're leaping towards." – Amy Hardin
- “First you must realize you're homesick for all the lives you're not living. Then you must commit to the road and the rising loneliness.” – Joy Sullivan
- “You have to be careful what you write down—it performs this kind of beautiful, terrifying magic.” – Joy Sullivan
- “Don’t compare yourself to someone who’s mid-leap. There were probably a lot of scoots to the edge before they launched.” – Joy Sullivan
- “You don’t have to get the leap right every time. You just have to be willing to innovate midair.” – Joy Sullivan
- “I had coded into my psyche what it meant to be a good woman. When I fractured those stories, my life expanded into possibility.” – Joy Sullivan
- “If I take crumbs and call it a meal, if I stay in rooms where I’m not called beloved, then I’m in a cage of my own making.” – Joy Sullivan
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Flinging Ourselves Into Fresh Starts ft. Joy Sullivan – https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-61/flinging-ourselves-into-fresh-starts-ft-joy-sullivan/
- Sustenance ((A Community of Poets and Writers founded by Joy Sullivan) - https://joysullivanpoet.com/sustenance
- Necessary Salt (Joy Sullivan’s Substack Blog) - https://joysullivan.substack.com/
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Description:
Today’s guest is someone whose work has touched millions of hearts around the world. You probably fell in love with her through her luminous debut memoir ‘From Scratch: A Memoir of Love, Sicily, and Finding Home’, which was later adapted into a limited series on Netflix and became a global success.
Tembi Locke has held many roles: accomplished author, producer, screenwriter, actor, artist, caregiver, child of divorce, mother through adoption, and widow to cancer. It is through her experiences in all of these spaces that Tembi has honed her ability to write, speak, and live from that rare place where grief and grace meet—where we can hold loss and love in the same breath.
Her newest work, Someday, Now, is an immersive, breathtaking, and deeply personal audio experience that takes us on a journey back to Sicily, a place layered with memory, love, and loss for Tembi, as she prepares to send her daughter off to college. Through reflection, family, and the beauty of place, Tembi invites us to consider what it means to re-nest—to reclaim identity, purpose, and joy in a season of profound transition.
Whether you’re launching a kid, starting over, or simply remembering how to listen to your own heart again, this episode will speak to you in this season.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “Sometimes in sharing the hardest things, we actually feel less alone.” – Tembi Locke
- “Sicily is that place of myth and nectar for me. It's one of those places on the planet that is supercharged with the best of what nature has to offer: sun, wind, the sea. It’s a beautiful place. It's the place I return to when there's something I don't quite understand and Sicily makes me have to listen to it.” – Tembi Locke
- “I think when you get to midlife, you need to settle into yourself, be more present with yourself in order to show up for the big moments of change that are happening. Try to anchor in and be as present as possible. Lean into the quiet spaces between the moments.” – Tembi Locke
- “How can we make space as families and really as mothers at this inflection point to quiet the noise and busyness of life? How can we slow down time, and really mark the moment and honor it?” – Tembi Locke
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- From Scratch: A Memoir of Love, Sicily, and Finding Home by Tembi Locke - https://amzn.to/47s3ZhN
- From Scratch on Netflix - https://www.netflix.com/title/81104486
- Attica Locke - https://www.atticalocke.com/
- Someday, Now: A Memoir of Family, Reclaiming Possibility, and One Sicilian Summer by Tembi Locke - https://amzn.to/3LLKUyA
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://www.tembilocke.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tembilocke/
Podcast - https://www.tembilocke.com/podcast
Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - http ...
Description:
Tune in for this very special #JenHatmakerBookClub episode where Jen gives unprecedented access to look behind the scenes at her own writing process and collaboration that went into the publishing of “Awake”. For today’s conversation, Jen sits down with Vice President and Editorial Director for Avid Reader Press, Lauren Wein, to delve into the journey of bringing Jen's book "Awake" to the page and all the way to the New York Times bestseller list. Jen discusses the profound impact of trusting your own intuition in your writing along with the challenges in memoir-writing of prioritizing authenticity and vulnerability while honoring the privacy for those involved. Lauren pulls back the curtain on the collaborative nature of the editing process, describing the satisfaction she finds with helping authors find their voice. And Jen shares the one truth she hopes every reader of “Awake” walks away with.
Anyone who is interested in writing, or the behind-the-scenes or book-making will enjoy this episode. Whether you're a writer or a reader, this conversation offers a unique glimpse into the creative process and the power of storytelling.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “One of the things that Awake is about is learning to trust yourself and trusting your body. I feel like that is how I edit. It's like a tuning fork. I sense when something is like, need more or need less. It's physical.” – Lauren Wein
- “Every story deserves authenticity.” – Jen Hatmaker
- “In the war of ‘you versus you’, nobody wins, because you're very hard on yourself. You have a very critical inner voice. When you hear somebody tell you something that you maybe sensed about yourself but you didn't quite know, it ignites something, it confirms something that maybe you sensed was there but the voice was too small because the other voices were just louder.” – Lauren Wein
- “Finding your voice is a journey.” – Lauren Wein
- “When this book was first announced, it was erroneously referred to as a tell-all, which was upsetting to all of us because that is absolutely not what it is. What was very important to you (Jen) was honesty, not telling it all, but being truthful and respecting other people's privacy. Now that is the hardest line to walk when you're writing your own story because your own story is not your own story entirely.” – Lauren Wein
- "Trust your intuition in creative work." – Jen Hatmaker
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- For the parents who are slogging through May – https://jenhatmaker.com/blog/for-the-parents-who-are-slogging-through-may/
- Margaret Riley King - https://www.wmebookdepartment.com/team/margaret-riley-king/
- Maybe You Should Talk to Someone: A Therapist, HER Therapist, and Our Lives Revealed by Lori Gottleib - https://amzn.to/4pUADj8
- Wild Game: My Mother, Her Secret, and Me by Adrienne Brodeur - https://amzn.to/4nywiRc
- Becoming Duchess Goldblatt by Anonymous - https://amzn.to/4o6rHpt
- Awake by Jen Hatmaker audiobook - https://amzn.to/4gU7v7P
- Lights on a Similar Path: ‘Awake’ Readers Reflect On Finding Their Way - https://jenhatmaker.com/pod ...
Description:
In this heartfelt episode, Jen and Amy welcome friends, Justin McRoberts and Scott Erickson, to delve into the tender complexities of depression, creativity, and faith. Together, Scott and Justin have built a body of work around the intersection of art, prayer, and healing, including their newest project: In the Low: A Prayerbook for the Seasons of Depression. Today they share personal stories and insights on how art and spirituality can serve as companions through life's most isolating lows.
This episode offers a compassionate perspective on navigating mental health challenges and finding hope in unexpected places. If you've ever found yourself in a season that was super dark or unbearably heavy, this conversation will bring you comfort.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “When depression eventually would lift in my life, I noticed that I'd think, ‘Where did this fruit come from? Where did this treasure come from?’ It came through going through this process. You might feel void of it when you're in it, you're just trying to get through it or be in it or be functional every day. But there is something happening.” – Scott Erickson
- “What are the comforting words I need for today? How can my conscious mind provide something for my subconscious and my soul? How can my conscious mind provide some handles for me for this day, for this week, for this moment?” – Justin McRoberts
- “Your disappointment in the religious systems you've been a part of is a gift and those systems need it. There's something really institutionally beautiful and necessary to whole swaths, thousands and thousands of people sharing the same set of disappointments. Follow that thread.” – Scott Erickson
- “You aren't wrong to feel the things you are feeling. Life is hard. The machinery is beating the snot out of you. Stay. Please stay long enough to see what might be down there and learn to breathe. My hope is not that you rise to the surface, though I do hope that. My hope is that you learn to breathe at this depth.” – Justin McRoberts
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline - https://988lifeline.org/
- Nichole Nordeman - https://www.instagram.com/nicholenordeman
- Prayer: Forty Days of Practice by Scott Erickson and Justin McRoberts - https://amzn.to/4hDMVsM
- May It Be So: Forty Days with the Lord's Prayer by Scott Erickson and Justin McRoberts - https://amzn.to/3WsKFL5
- Honest Advent: Awakening to the Wonder of God-with-Us Then, Here, and Now by Scott Erickson - https://amzn.to/3LeVIFc
- In the Low: Honest Prayers for Dark Season by Scott Erickson and Justin McRoberts - https://amzn.to/3LaIB87
- Lost Connections: Uncovering the Real Causes of Depression - and the Unexpected Solutions by Johann Hari - https://amzn.to/4nsvrAR
- Matt Haig - https://amzn.to/4o7CTlV
- Scott Erickson Paints an Honest Picture of an Advent Season of Hope - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/scott-erickson-paints-an-honest-picture-of-an-advent-season-of-hope/
Description:
Part systems expert, part permission giver, Kendra Adachi, The Lazy Genius, has made it her mission to help you be a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don’t. From simplifying a to-do list, to calming back-to-school chaos, tips on getting kids to clean their rooms, time management tips, travel hacks, recommended reading to make your life easier, Kendra’s philosophy on productivity and taming life is a zero-shame zone. See what we mean in this excerpt from Kendra’s podcast where she helps us simplify one of my favorite things, rest.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “It is possible to figure out what makes you feel more like yourself. There are things that energize and wake you up and other things that fill you up.” – Kendra Adachi
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
-
258 - The Seven Kinds of Rest and How to Know Which One You Need - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/258-the-seven-kinds-of-rest-and-how-to-know-which-one-you-need/id1111796513?i=1000557902954
- The PLAN: Manage Your Time Like a Lazy Genius by Kendra Adachi - https://amzn.to/47hKLvm
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://www.thelazygeniuscollective.com
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thelazygenius/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/2548803345149849
Podcast - https://www.thelazygeniuscollective.com/lazy
Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker
The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.
Description:
The number of people who have said, ‘Jen, you and John Fugelsang should have a conversation’ is approximately one thousand. So naturally, we thought, let’s have that conversation where a million listeners can tune in and enjoy it too.
Strap yourself in for a wild ride as Jen Hatmaker chats with the ever-entertaining comedian, actor and broadcaster, John Fugelsang, host of the Tell Me Everything series on SiriusXM Progress and The John Fugelsang Podcast. In this episode, they tackle the delightful chaos of breezy topics like Christian nationalism, the real teachings of Jesus (spoiler: it's not about power), and why love trumps all—literally. With his signature blend of humor and razor-sharp insight, John dishes on his book, "Separation of Church and Hate," and why it's time to take back the Bible from the fundamentalist fun police. Get ready for a conversation that's as enlightening as a Sunday sermon, but way more fun.
Whether you consider yourself religious, spiritual, atheistic, or just allergic to hypocrisy, THIS is the episode for you. Tune in, laugh, and maybe learn a thing or two!
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “I think the largest growing demographic we don't talk about is people who were raised religious but now consider themselves spiritual. They're not turned off to spirituality or God or Jesus or belief. They love the great mystery, but they're really turned off to the hypocrisies and the cruelties and the meanness of so many church communities in this country.” – John Fugelsang
- “ was raised to believe that Christianity was about the stuff that Christ taught and commanded: service to others, humility, love, acceptance, empathy, forgiving your enemies, turning the other cheek, replacing eye-for-an-eye. And the teachings of Jesus in Matthew 25, that individuals and nations are going to be judged by how they care for the poor, care for the sick, welcome the stranger, and care for the incarcerated. That's the stuff Jesus actually talked about.” – John Fugelsang
- “American Christians have been manipulated with all this homophobia, all this hatred of immigrants and none of that comes from Jesus and it's been done by a political movement that is only about power. Conservative Christian power, not the teachings of Christ, not the religious freedom, not fighting Satan, conservative Christian power.” – John Fugelsang
- “If Jesus spoke in parable and metaphor, why is it so hard to view the Bible as parable and metaphor? We get so hung up on proving the facts of the Bible that we miss the truth of the Bible. And the Bible has a lot of truth. It does not have a lot of facts.” – John Fugelsang
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Separation of Church and Hate: A Sane Person's Guide to Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalists, Fascists, and Flock-Fleecing Frauds by John Fugelsang - https://amzn.to/4husQF3
- Tell Me Everything with John Fugelsang on SiriusXM - https://www.siriusxm.com/blog/tag/john-fugelsang
John’s Links:
Website - https://www.johnfugelsang.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/johnfugelsang/
Twitter - https://x.com/JohnFugelsang
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/john.fugelsang.9
Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@JJbirdsong1
Description:
For a special treat this week, we’re bringing you some highlights straight from Jen’s recent Awake book tour in a limited series we’ve dubbed “Road Trippin’ with Jen”. Every tour stop, audience, and special guest brought its own kind of magic, so we’re excited to share some of the best moments with you here on the podcast.
On this Road Trippin’ stop, Jen shares the stage with two powerhouses. In Houston, board-certified OBGYN and best-selling author, Dr. Mary Claire Haver, shares her journey and insights into women's health, particularly around menopause and midlife. She unpacks our burning questions—why brain fog shows up before periods change, why sleep matters, and how a “menopause toolkit” can set us up for strength, longevity, and joy. This conversation delves into the complexities of menopause, the importance of nutrition, sleep, and movement, and the power of community and connection. Together we learn how to thrive in mind, body, and spirit during this transformative phase of life.
Then we head to the Music City of Nashville, where comedian and truth-teller Heather Land talks about using humor to survive whatever garbage life throws at us, pivoting careers in midlife, and choosing honesty as a way to create belonging. Heather reminds us that laughter can be holy too, and when every other thing fails, humor has a way of breaking us open just enough to let the light in. Tune in for an evening that was equal parts comedy set, revival, and group therapy.
…
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- Perimenopause brain changes show up well before your periods go sideways.” — Dr. Mary Claire
- “Strength training is non-negotiable if you want to keep bone and muscle.” — Dr. Mary Claire
- “If you don’t laugh, you’ll cry—and sometimes the laughing saves you.” — Heather Land
- “Honesty is freedom. If people don’t like it, that’s on them.” — Heather Land
- “Staying awake isn’t just serious business—it’s about finding delight in unexpected places.” — Jen Hatmaker
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- The Ultimate Menopause Toolkit - https://bit.ly/3WkYsDo
- The New Menopause: Navigating Your Path Through Hormonal Change with Purpose, Power, and Facts by Dr. Mary Claire Haver - https://amzn.to/4qBg8bU
- For the Love Episode 21: Series 64 - Reinventing Yourself with Heather Land - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/reinventing-yourself-with-heather-land/
Dr. Mary Claire Haver — Board-certified OB-GYN, bestselling author, leading voice on perimenopause/menopause care, and educator advocating science-based, compassionate treatment for women in midlife and beyond.
Heather Land — Comedian, writer, and speaker whose viral wit opened the door to deeper storytelling. Known for pairing humor with honesty about faith, family, recovery, and midlife reinvention.
Dr. Mary Claire Haver’s Links:
Website - https://thepauselife.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/drmaryclaire/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/drmaryclaire/
Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@drmaryclaire
TikTok - ht ...
Description: In this episode of the Matriarchy series, we explore how deeply ingrained patriarchal narratives can create a policing effect on the behavior of women.
Author, Elise Loehnen, discusses her book "On Our Best Behavior" which examines how concepts like the seven deadly sins have historically been used to restrict women's behavior and police their adherence to an idealized form of "goodness." Loehnen unpacks the insidious ways women are culturally conditioned from a young age to suppress normal human drives like anger, ambition, and sexuality. And how disrupting rigid gender stereotypes is important when raising the next generation in order to build a more compassionate world.
…
Thought-provoking Quotes:
★ “Women are trained for goodness; men are trained for power.” – Elise Loehnen
★ “Patriarchy isn’t just out there in systems and structures — it’s in us. It’s the air we breathe.” – Elise Loehnen
★ “A ‘good woman’ never needs anything. She has no wants, no anger, no appetite. She exists to meet everyone else’s needs — and calls it virtue.” – Elise Loehnen
★ “We are so conditioned to police ourselves that we end up policing each other.” – Elise Loehnen
★ “I hold everything I think with loose hands. This is what I know now. But I’m open to the me who might think differently later.” – Jen Hatmaker
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
➤ On Our Best Behavior by Elise Loehnen - https://bit.ly/44tz41D
➤ Goop - https://goop.com
➤ For the Love of Being Seen and Heard ft. Lori Gottlieb - https://bit.ly/4b8YT9C
➤ Maybe You Should Talk to Someone by Lori Gottlieb - https://bit.ly/3JO7FOn
➤ Evagrius Ponticus (Fourth Century Christian Monk) - https://bit.ly/4b7zEV5
➤ Pope Gregory on the 7 Deadly Sins -
Description:
If you have ever lost your cool with your kids and then felt the crushing wave of guilt that comes sweeping in after—this episode is for you.
This week, Jen and Amy sit down with psychotherapist and emotions educator Hilary Jacobs Hendel, author of ‘It’s Not Always Depression’ and the new book ‘Parents Have Feelings, Too’, to talk about what happens when we stop ignoring our own emotions and start bringing more calm, curiosity, and compassion into our families.
Hilary shares her groundbreaking Change Triangle model—a simple but powerful tool that helps us move from anxiety, shame, and reactivity to understanding what’s really underneath: our core emotions like anger, sadness, fear, and joy. Together, they unpack:
- How to break cycles we inherited from our own parents
- What “open-hearted parenting” looks like in real life
- How to repair when we’ve said or done something we regret
- And why healing our emotions may be the greatest legacy we give our kids
It’s a conversation full of science, self-compassion, and deep sighs of relief—a reminder that parents have feelings too, and that tending to them isn’t selfish; it’s sacred work. Whether you’re parenting toddlers, teens, or even adult children, there is something to serve you in this episode and it’s a great one to share with a friend.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
- “It's always possible for relationships and the brain to change, and they happen hand in hand, so it is never too late.” – Hilary Jacobs Hendel
- “What I needed to do was slow everything down and get curious. Get to know this kid, say, ‘tell me a little bit more about what's going on.’ Question my own values and the ways I thought it was going to be, all these fantasies that I came in with at the expense of my kid when I thought I was helping.” – Hilary Jacobs Hendel
- “Self-awareness is an investment that comes back in dividends and capital gains beyond anything that we can imagine. And it's so much more relaxing to parent this way.” – Hilary Jacobs Hendel
- “I can shout from the rooftops that emotions education is important, just like reading and math is important. In high school biology we learn we have a heart, lungs, and pancreas, but emotions affect us far worse. Every single day of our lives. You'd think somebody would want to pay attention to teaching us a little bit about them.”– Hilary Jacobs Hendel
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Parents Have Feelings, Too: A Guide to Navigating Your Emotions So You And Your Family Can Thrive by Hilary Jacobs Hendel and Juli Fraga - https://amzn.to/4h3wtlf
- For The Love Of Reconnecting Episode 03: Making Good Use of Our Emotions: Hilary Jacobs Hendel - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-32/making-good-use-of-our-emotions-hilary-jacobs-hendel/
- It's Not Always Depression: Working the Change Triangle to Listen to the Body, Discover Core Emotions, and Connect to Your Authentic Self by Hilary Jacobs Hendel - https://amzn.to/3L3an6f
- The Change Triangle - https://www.hilaryjacobshendel.com/whats-the-change-triangle
- Awake: A Memoir by Jen Hatmaker - https://amzn.to/4nCb9pi
- Simple Habit meditation app - https://www.simplehabit.com/
We’re back with more of our For the Love of Funny series, and this week we’re asking the question; is it possible to find humor not only in our lighter moments, but also in our vulnerable and difficult times? Our guest this week specializes in wit through the written word–and he has found that it is possible to find joy, while being heartfelt and hilarious at the same time. We’re welcoming R. Eric Thomas, back to the show! Whether he’s writing about politics, pop culture, or celebrity craziness–Eric has a refreshing and hilarious perspective–which really helps when regular reporting on politics and news might send us spiraling into the darkness. Eric is also a television writer (Dickinson on AppleTV+, Better Things on FX), a playwright, and a bestselling author of several books, including Here For It: Or How To Save Your Soul in America and his newest work, a collection of hilarious essays called Congratulations The Best Is Over. Eric brings that laugh we need when the world seems bonkers, and helps remind us that we can find something to laugh at in almost every situation–we just have to be open to it.
Thank you to our sponsors!
BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month!
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Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“Be grateful that you got to this place because this is where you wanted to be. Don't spend so much time thinking, ‘What if it all goes away?’” - R. Eric Thomas
“I think to myself, ‘If you were better, then you'd be busier and that would make you happier.’ I don't know that busier equals happier. I don't know if that's true.” - R. Eric Thomas
“I remember the first time somebody came up to me in the street and said, ‘Hey, this is weird, but I follow your Facebook, a friend of mine told me to, and you're funny.’ And I'm like, ‘Who are you? What's happening? Where are the cameras?’” - R. Eric Thomas
“I know from my own experience as a reader and as a writer, you can have a good time with something that is both funny and heartfelt.” - R. Eric Thomas
“I posted an Instagram story that was essentially like, ‘I got rejected from this thing, but my Beyonce´ hat came. So there are pluses and minuses.’ People really responded. They were like, ‘Thank you for sharing not only your wins but your losses. It seems like you're always winning.’ I'm like, ‘baby, I am always losing, but I'm not going to share that.’” - R. Eric Thomas
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
For the Love of Finding Truth ft. Eric Thomas
Eric Reads the News
Dickinson
Better Things
Here for It by R. Eric Thomas
Congratulations, The Best is Over by R. Eric Thomas
Reclaiming Her Time: The Power of Maxine Waters by R. Eric Thomas and Helena Andrews-Dyer
Kings of B’more by R. Eric Thomas
Lynn Nottage’s Website
The Getaway Car: A Practical Memoir About Writing and Life by Ann Patchett
The Enneagram Institute
Broken (in the best possible way) by Jenny Lawson
My Point…And I Do Have One by Ellen Degeneres
There’s Nothing in This Book That I Meant to Say by Paula Poundstone
The Moth
For the Love Podcast episode with Anne Bogel
Guest’s Links:
R. Eric Thomas’s Website
R. Eric Thomas’s Instagram
R. Eric Thomas’s Twitter
R. Eric Thomas’s Facebook
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
We’re looking for laughs and we found them in all the right places, and we’re sharing the hilarity with a brand new series called For the Love Of Funny. If you’ve hung out with us for any amount of time, you know that Jen is an avid devotee of all things funny. So we’ve rounded up some of her favorite funny people to not only bring us laughs, but to unpack the art and science of making people laugh. And for our very first episode, we couldn’t be more delighted to welcome “The Tennessee Kid” himself–Nate Bargatze! Nate’s known for his down-to-earth humor and deadpan comedy delivery, his highly viewed Netflix specials, and his favored status as a frequent guest on “The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon: (10+ times!). Surprise guest interviewer Tyler Merritt joins Jen as they pull back the curtain on Nate’s comedy journey. Often referred to as the “nicest man in standup,” Nate talks about growing up in a performance forward home (his dad was a Christian magician), the origins of some of his funniest jokes (Yelled at By a Clown, anyone?) and the side of fame that isn’t so pretty–like his sister’s incredulity that anyone would want to take a selfie with him.
Thank you to our sponsors!
Chime | Visit chime.com/forthelove to learn how you can benefit from using Chime!
Jen Hatmaker BookClub | Visit jenhatmakerbookclub.com and use code READ at checkout $5 off your purchase!
FOCL | Visit https://focl.com/ and use code FORTHELOVE at checkout for 20% off of your purchase
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
For the Love Episode ft. Kevin Nealon
Nate Bargatze: The Tennessee Kid
Nate Bargatze: The Greatest Average American
The Nateland Podcast
The Be Funny Tour
The Second City Comedy Club
Hannibal Buress’s Website
Kumail Nanjiani
T.J. Miller’s Website
Pete Holmes Website
Amy Schumer’s Website
Aziz Ansari’s Website
Dusty Slay’s Website
Sinbad: Afros & Bellbottoms
Brian Regan’s Website
Kurt Metzger’s Website
Big J Oakerson’s Website
Bill Burr’s Website
Dave Attell’s Website
Eddie Murphy: Raw
Eddie Murphy: Delirious
The Comic Strip
Steve Martin
Justin Smith’s Website
Guest’s Links:
Nate’s Website
Nate’s Instagram
Nate’s TikTok
Nate’s YouTube Channel
Nate’s Twitter
Nate’s Facebook
Connect with Jen! Jen’s website
Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter
Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
As we close in on the end of our Community and Friendships series, we’re reflecting on the great conversations we’ve had toward building relationships in our lives. And this week’s convo puts the cherry on top as we discuss our friends as “chosen family” and the shape that our friendship and communities take when we are in a place where we need extra support. Our guest this week, Emma Nadler, is a therapist, author and speaker who is doing valuable work in helping people build deeper relationships. Emma knows firsthand what it means to rely on her circle in ways she never thought she would, when her daughter was diagnosed with a DNA disorder, shifting the life she knew, and navigating the special care, multiple hospital stays, and more than full-time parenting her daughter needs. By leaning on her community and being brave enough to ask for help (when sometimes the tendency is to act like we’ve got it all under control). Emma’s goal is to show us how we can look beyond preconceived notions about what it means to be valued and to belong, and leads us toward building a world where thriving in community is possible for every single person.
Emma and Jen touch on:
- What it looks like when our “family” looks different than expected in the context of friendships and our communities
- How to understand and learn to tolerate our emotions when it comes to interacting with friends and community and how to find meaning in everything—good and bad
- Practical steps on fostering really authentic connections, asking for help, and creating inclusive spaces
- The power of being direct when reaching out to connect with new people, or friends you’ve drifted from, to foster a deeper relationship
There’s so much value in learning how to meaningfully connect with others and create communities and friendships that celebrate our joyful times and anchor us at difficult times.
Thank you to our sponsors!
Jen Hatmaker BookClub | Visit jenhatmakerbookclub.com and use code READ at checkout $5 off your purchase!
FOCL | Visit https://focl.com/ and use code FORTHELOVE at checkout for 20% off of your purchase
BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month!
Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“We're born into something and we get certain things from that family; we might get a lot of things. We might get a lot of love. Some people do, some people don't get what they need. I think we can take that and build on it in the relationships that we create in our lives.” - Emma Nadler
“There are 53 million caregivers in the United States right now and we can really feel alone, even though we're not. Often our work [leaves us] tucked away. We're at home. We have so much that we're grappling with that isn't seen. And so it can really feel [lonely].” - Emma Nadler
“What would it be like to be open with people about what we are looking for in our relationships, what we want, and really let that in? ” - Emma Nadler
“To me, in relationships, the question I'm most interested in is, do we want the same things out of this relationship?” - Emma Nadler
“We're full of possibilities. We just never know when we're gonna meet someone who will change our life.” - Emma Nadler
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
The Unlikely Village of Eden by Emma Nadler
Feed These People by Jen Hatmaker
Dr. Robert Waldinger’s Harvard Second Generation Study
Guest’s Links:
Emma’s Website
Emma’s Instagram
Emma’s Facebook
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
We’re back with our “For the Love of Community and Friendship Series, and this week, we delve into an area of friendship that all of us may face, but inevitably dread. It’s that moment when you know a friendship has run its course, or perhaps has become toxic, or you’ve just drifted apart–and you don’t know how to go forward. When life changes, when we change, and a friendship no longer serves us, how do we gracefully (and honestly) communicate about it? Our guest this week, who is here to walk us through this touchy topic, is writer, former standup comedian and political consultant Erin Falconer. Erin's written a book called How to Break Up With Your Friends: Finding Meaning, Connection and Boundaries in Modern Friendships. Lest you think this is just a conversation on how to wipe your friend slate clean, stick around–you’ll hear Jen and Erin talk about how to create and maintain the healthiest friendships through all the seasons of our lives in order to avoid the painful friend breakup.
They also discuss:
- Erin’s “Six Pillars of Friendship” that help us take stock of who is in our life and how we’re serving each other
- What to do when we see a friendship has run its course or needs to shift or change in some way
- How to keep the source of joy going in our adult friendships, and minimize the pain
It’s tough to grapple with the complexities of friendship breakups, but it all starts with building healthy relationships from the start.
Thank you to our sponsors!
Trust and Will - Get 10% and Free Shipping when Visit trustandwill.com/forthelove. See how Trust and Will can benefit you!
FOCL - Visit https://focl.com/ and use code FORTHELOVE at checkout for 20% off of your purchase
Jen Hatmaker BookClub | Visit jenhatmakerbookclub.com and use code READ at checkout $5 off your purchase!
Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“There's no collectively agreed upon language out there in the zeitgeist about how to navigate conflict in [friend] relationships. There’s no blueprint for what a good one looks like, what a bad one looks like, and how to get out of good bad ones and into good ones." - Erin Falconer
“The default setting on any one relationship should be one of positivity. It's so easy to slip into negative thinking and negative conversations because they feel so good. They feel like you're seen and you're heard and done. But you have to be really careful to not lean too heavily into those things.” - Erin Falconer
“Relationships take work. To show up, you need to commit to the other person and you have to find your rhythm of what that looks like. It doesn't mean you have to be getting dinner every week, but there has to be some kind of agreed-upon level of commitment in this.” - Erin Falconer
“It is true that individuals themselves can be toxic people. That is such a small percentage of people. It is, in this case, the relationship that is toxic, and even if somebody else is behaving badly, you've allowed them to continue to show up in this way in your life. We teach people how to treat us and there's a certain degree of responsibility we need to own within these relationships because with responsibility comes freedom and power.” - Erin Falconer
“Relationships are very much a mirror to you. The more you explore these types of relationships, the more you explore yourself. To that end, understanding who is in your world is really important to understanding who you are.” - Erin Falconer
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
For the Love of Reconnecting ft. Nedra Tawwab
How to Break Up with Your Friends: Finding Meaning, Connection, and Boundaries in Modern Friendships by Erin Falconer
Marie Kondo
Guest’s Links:
Erin’s Instagram
Erin’s Twitter
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
When was the last time you reached out to one of your neighbors? Not just the people you feel comfortable with, but the ones who live near that you might not know beyond a “How are you?” in passing. As we continue our Community and Friendship series, we’re taking a look at why it enriches our lives (and the lives of our neighbors) to invest in the people around us. It doesn’t have to mean they all become our best friends, but a little curiosity, a little paying attention, and a little effort to listen will go a long way in developing the kinds of relationships that make life sweeter. To help guide this conversation, we’re delighted to welcome author and speaker Shannan Martin back to the show! Through her writing, Shannan has revolutionized the way we think about relationships with her refreshing perspectives. She articulates the need for genuine, deep-seated friendships that stretch beyond conventional norms. She also unravels the complexities of forging meaningful connections in our modern world, and her last book “Start with Hello” beckons us toward extending hospitality in ways that might feel awkward at first, but will net us that sense of community and belonging we all long for.
Shannan and Jen discuss:
How Shannan, a self proclaimed introvert, faced her loneliness after she and her family moved from the country to the city by getting outside her comfort zone and making herself available to meet her neighbors
- What it means to be deeply embedded in a neighborhood where you are both a good neighbor, and your neighbors are good neighbors to you
- How making new friends, no matter how big or small, always starts with a simple “hello” and the small steps towards getting to know someone by making eye contact, paying attention and helping when we can
Shannan and Jen agree that when we reach out beyond our fears, beyond our comfort level, and beyond our borders with radical hospitality, good things start to happen in our neighborhoods which then trickle out to our communities and begin to affect society as a whole. And, be sure to stay with us ‘til the very end–you won’t want to miss a little bonus chat among friends about whether ice cream is healthy for you or not, and what flavors Jen and Shannan swear by.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“Every relationship that we have, whether it's the smallest acquaintance or our truest loves, began with a hello.” - Shannan Martin
“There's this unfair idea that if somebody is unhoused, they're gonna be inherently a danger to us and it's just simply not true.” - Shannan Martin
“What if we just decided to eat together? What if we decided that nobody is exempt from being in our home? Everybody's invited. That makes life really interesting.” - Shannan Martin
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
For the Love of Books Series
The Window (a nonprofit organization out of Goshen, IN)
Shannan’s Books
For the Love Episode ft. Osheta Moore
An article on the health benefits of Ice Cream by The Atlantic
Toad the Wet Sprocket Tour
Crack the Case by Dawes
Guest’s Links:
Shannan’s Website
Shannan’s Twitter
Shannan’s Instagram
Shannan’s Facebook
Connect with Jen!:
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Hey friends, we are back with another episode in our For the Love of Community & Friendships, and we happen to have a true friend of the show returning to lay down some expertise about what it means to make and keep friends. We’re delighted to have Dr. Marisa Franco, (who also partnered with Jen to create a MeCourse on Friendship) who delves into the fascinating world of friendship attachment styles. Dr. Franco shares her extensive knowledge and insights on how our attachment styles, often formed during our early years, can significantly influence the type of friendships we form as adults. She discusses the three main types of attachment styles—secure, avoidant, and anxious—and explains how understanding our own style can help us navigate our friendships more effectively. Jen and Marisa touch on:
- How the three main types of attachment styles can change over time as we typically become more secure as we mature
- How, when we’re younger, we tend to have more friends (and friends who are very similar to us) as we look to expand our identity, and when we become more solid in our identity, we’re more open to be friends with people who are different from us
- Why friendship doesn’t just typically “happen,”--it takes effort, and some ways you can put yourself out there to make new friends, and how to do the work to keep the friends you already have
- How to approach conflict in friendship where we kindly share our needs with a spirit of reconciliation over an attitude of defensiveness
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Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“If you don't understand your attachment style, you think that the world is just mean and cruel and people are gonna reject you or people are going to betray you. If you're more avoidant and you don't have any power, you don't have any agency because all the issues are out in the world.” - Dr. Marisa Franco
“I think if we can understand our attachment styles, we have more agency, we have more control, we can shift our behaviors and we can find the relationships that we really want.” - Dr. Marisa Franco
“People are a lot more likely to be friends with people that are similar to them. It's called homophily. The value of these similar relationships is they do make us feel very safe.” - Dr. Marisa Franco
“We see in the research that people who see friendship as happening without effort are more likely to be lonely five years later. People that see it as requiring effort are less likely to be lonely five years later.” - Dr. Marisa Franco
“What we see in the research is that when people try to reconnect with someone, that person is happier to receive that reconnection than we predict.” - Dr. Marisa Franco
“In a healthy conflict, I think of; what does this conflict look like without blame? What if I go into here not trying to blame this person, not trying to even assume that they were trying to intentionally hurt me. So then, how do I navigate it with that being what's going on in my head?” - Dr. Marisa Franco
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Platonic How The Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends a book by Dr. Marisa Franco
Guest’s Links:
Dr. Franco’s Website
Dr. Franco’s Instagram
Dr. Franco’s Facebook
Dr. Franco’s Twitter
Dr. Franco’s Psychology Today
Connect with Jen!
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Genuine heart friendships have an incredible impact on our lives, including our health. Many recent studies tout the connection between health and the quality of your relationships, and that loneliness (not to be confused with being alone) can have a negative effect on our health–possibly even bigger than smoking or drinking or poor eating. So is it possible that our friends can actually help save us? Our guest today thinks so; writer and poet extraordinaire Maggie Smith recently went through a divorce and she credits her close knit friend group for being “her parachute” in that process (much like Jen’s friends have been for her as well).
Jen and Maggie discuss these topics around friendship:
- The way friends can invest in you in a way that family isn’t able to when you’re going through disruptive life moments
- The friends that intuitively know what you need during a rough patch and show up proactively with solutions so you don’t feel so lost
- How we can nurture those “life saving” friendships by being a good friend ourselves
Thank God for the friends who remind us of who we are–of our core goodness and worth– when a disruptive time shakes up our identity. They help bring us back to ourselves.
Thank you to our sponsors!
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Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“I was in a ‘not seeing the forest for the trees' mode. I was painting an inch from the canvas. I had no idea what the shape of anything was and I was just panicked and trying to spackle everything back together as quickly as I could. And so having people who could remind me of my goodness, my core worth, which I think is so easy to forget in these moments." - Maggie Smith
"When friends come in, they're not necessarily invested in the relationship. They're invested in your happiness. Whatever that looks like for you, it doesn't actually impact your friend a block away. If your marriage doesn't work the same way it impacts your family, who's thinking, 'Oh, what are we gonna do for Christmas now?'" - Maggie Smith
“I think there's something that we do that hurts our adult friendships in particular, which is why we prioritize them sometimes way below our romantic relationships. It happens even when we're dating. We all knew or we were the girl who was 15 and as soon as she got a boyfriend stopped hanging out with her friends on the weekends because she was like, ‘I just wanna be with my boyfriend and if he's busy then I can come hang out.’” - Maggie Smith
"Maybe someone hurt you five years ago now seems pretty small and not unmanageable or unforgivable. So what would it take to just reach out, call your friends, and have them help you craft a text to someone that you haven't talked to in a while, or leave a voicemail—if you're phone brave, I am not phone brave, so I would text or probably email. If you know where they live, send a little postcard that has some little private joke or something that reminds you of them." - Maggie Smith
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
You Could Make This Place Beautiful: A Memoir by Maggie Smith
My Thoughts Have Wings by Maggie Smith (A picture book releasing in winter 2024 by Maggie Smith)
Moving Forward After Pain Rips Your Script: Maggie Smith (FTL Episode featuring Maggie Smith)
Guest’s Links:
Maggie’s Website
Maggie’s Instagram
Maggie’s Twitter
Maggie’s Facebook
Connect with Jen!
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We’re in a brand new series; For the Love of Friends and Community. Friendship and community often serve as the cornerstone for many women's lives, providing a vital support system that nurtures connection, empathy, and mutual growth. In a recent survey from Psych Central, nearly half of most women report having fewer than 3 close friends, one third report having between 4-9 close friends, and 12% say they have no close friends at all. We know that friendship contributes to more satisfaction in life and is good for our overall health. So what’s the key to finding and keeping friends? How many friends do we need to get those good friend vibes? Our guest this week, author and podcaster Laura Tremaine, has written extensively about friendship, drawing from her own experiences and the experiences of other women she has talked to. Laura wants us to identify, create and nurture these deep connections that we long for. She also teaches us that friendship takes work, and vulnerably shares her friendship fails (yes, even a friendship expert has a few friend misses now and again).
Jen and Laura discuss:
-
The key qualities that make a friendship meaningful and enduring, and how those things are defined by what you value
-
A rundown of the things we all may think are important about friendship and looking at the things that aren’t as important as we’ve been made to believe they are
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How to navigate friendship breakups and friendships ending, allowing grief over that loss, and leaving room for that vacant “chair” to be filled by someone new
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Finding the “fellow obsessive” friend - the one you can geek out about with things that you both love
Creating meaningful friendships is not just about having a social circle. It's about experiencing true companionship and vulnerability and support. And it's these soul connections that can bring so much joy and fulfillment to our lives.
Thank you to our sponsors!
MeCourse: LGBTQIA+ | LGBTQIA+ Parenting e-course from Jen and special guests is available for order. Visit https://www.mecourse.org/lgbtqia-parenting for more info.
FOCL | Visit https://focl.com/ and use code FORTHELOVE at checkout for 20% off of your purchase
Jen Hatmaker BookClub | Visit jenhatmakerbookclub.com and use code READ at checkout $5 off your purchase!
Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“You can have all the data about why we connect or don't connect or how many people we can reasonably connect with. There's data and then there's actually real life.” - Laura Tremaine
“It's great to have the friends who knew you when. It's also great to have friends who are like, ‘I had no idea you used to be that way and I'm glad we're meeting at this stage.’” - Laura Tremaine
“My friendship with one of my best friends ended not by my choice, and it was as devastating as any romantic breakup I have ever been through.” - Laura Tremaine
“Sharing your stuff, even when it's messy, brings you closer to who you are.” - Laura Tremaine
“When you make a new friend and someone likes this newest version of you that you have fought so hard to be, how validating is that?” - Laura Tremaine
“Friendship is a to-do and I have to put it on my to-do list like I put work tasks on my to-do list.” - Laura Tremaine
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Share Your Stuff I’ll Go First (a book by Laura Tremaine)
Friends song by Michael W. Smith
Brené Brown’s Websites
Jamie B. Golden
Steven King Summer (A book club with Laura Tremaine)
On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft by Stephen King
The Stand by Stephen King
Guest’s Links:
Laura’s Instagram
Laura’s Facebook
Laura’s Podcast
Laura’s Amazon
Laura’s Website
Connect with Jen!
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If you or anyone you know and love has ever had issues with their mental health, you know how painful it can be. As we conclude our “For the Love of Being Seen and Heard” series, we just want to remind you that there's no shame in admitting that you might need a little help. Maybe you’re feeling low, or more anxious than usual, or sad, scared, or just off—anything that feels different or keeps you from flourishing. Our guest today is here to encourage you to take agency over your mental health, and as a therapist herself, she’s here to help us shed those stigmas around seeking help from a therapist or counselor. Lori Gottleib is a renowned psychotherapist, a bestselling author, and a leading voice in the mental health space. Her latest book (which was also a a selection for the Jen Hatmaker Book Club) Maybe You Should Talk To Somebody leads us into her own experiences with the transformative power of therapy and gives answers to those who might have hesitations about beginning this process. Lori and Jen talk about:
- Identifying the stereotypes about therapy and debunking them, plus what to expect so that you can a get the most out of your time with a therapist
- Developing an attitude that mental health is just as important as physical help and that seeking a therapist is on the same level as getting a check up with a medical doctor toward whole body health
- Jen’s personal experiences with therapy - and how she processed pain and betrayal, plus what it looks like to be in active recovery
- Becoming aware of and taking responsiblity for our own patterns, actions and responses to life events as it pertains to our mental state and interactions with others
As Lori says, “one thing that therapy will teach you is how to be your real, messy, imperfect, fallible self, but also still love who you are.”
Thank you to our sponsors!
BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month!
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Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“I think a lot of people are maybe afraid to open up to a therapist. They're maybe afraid to say, ‘this is the truth of who I am.’f That's why I really wanted to be open about what I was going through when I went to therapy, because I want people to know that this is a space where we've seen it all, not only as a therapist, but as a person in the world ourselves.” - Lori Gottlieb
“The more you can show the truth of who you are, the deeper your connections will be with the people in your life.” - Lori Gottlieb\
“The internet is the most effective short-term non-prescription painkiller out there because it's really something we use to distract ourselves.” - Lori Gottlieb
“The value of therapy is that you get wise compassion; we will hold up a mirror to you and we will help you to see what you haven't been willing or able to see about your role in the situation.” - Lori Gottlieb
“People do not realize; therapy [can be] hilarious because we're hilarious. Like, what is the gap between what we say we want and what we're actually doing? What are the ways in which we self-sabotage all the time? And we kind of know it, but we don't really wanna be called on it. But in therapy we're called on it in the kindest possible way. And we might laugh with our therapist about it.” - Lori Gottlieb
“A misconception about therapy is that you're gonna go to therapy and you're gonna talk about your childhood for years and you're never gonna leave. But it's very much about what is happening now and what we can do now. The past informs the present, but we want you to have pain relief as quickly as possible. So we wanna be really proactive about what we can do right now.” - Lori Gottlieb
“Men and women, any gender, whoever you are, however you identify; everybody is entitled to being vulnerable. And entitled to having someone sit with them and be present with them in their vulnerability, and not judge them, and not look down on them, but to connect with them.” - Lori Gottlieb
“One more hurdle that people need to get over is this fear of what [the therapist] is gonna think about them. But I think what's underneath that is, what am I gonna think of myself?” - Lori Gottlieb
“The person that we talk to most in the course of our lives is ourselves and what we say to ourselves isn't always kind or true or useful.” - Lori Gottlieb
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
For the Love of Reconnecting Podcast episode- Rewriting the Stories We Tell Ourselves: Lori Gottlieb
Maybe You Should Talk to Somebody by Lori Gottlieb
Jen Hatmaker Book Club
Aspen Ideas Festival
Dear Therapist Podcast
Guy Winch’s Ted Talk
Lori’s Atlantic Articles
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone Workbook
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone Journal
Guest’s Links:
Lori’s Website
Lori’s Twitter
Lori’s Instagram
Lori’s Facebook
Connect with Jen!
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To close out season one of the Make Me Care About Podcast, Jen sits down with the co-chair of The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, Melinda French Gates. In the spirit of helping us care about important, but sometimes little known facts, resources and phenomena, in this final episode, Melinda helps Jen wrap the season by discussing why she thinks we should care, and why she herself cares about the topics discussed throughout the first season. She also fills us in on what new initiatives are brewing at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and the foundation's future. She discusses a central tenet toward enhancing women’s economic power, and why she believes this is such an important goal for the foundation.
Join Jen and Melinda as they discuss:
- What happens when we start to care about important topics like the ones discussed in this Make Me Care About series
- How women having true economic power changes everything in their household and in the world
- Jen’s pick on the episode from this season that had the most impact on her
- How Melinda’s travels around the world provide crucial perspective on other cultures and ways of life toward helping others thrive
You won’t want to miss this fascinating wrap to Season One of the Make Me Care About Podcast with special guest Melinda French Gates.
Gates Foundation Links
Make Me Care About Podcast Series
Gates Foundation
Resources for this Episode
Krystal Payne
Deon Woods Bell
Chef Pierre Thiam
Connect with Jen!
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We’re back with another installment of our Being Seen and Heard series, and we think this one is going to strike a nerve with many of you out there who are looking for a better, stronger, fairer, narrative when it comes to the balance of work in your home and toward raising children. Are you the one in your relationship who is handling the lion’s share of the care and feeding of your littles PLUS taking care of their pickups and dropoffs to school, daycare, sports, bathtimes, bedtimes, wiping noses, butts PLUS managing the domestic front of grocery shopping, cleaning, organizing, handling the social calendar, vacations, PLUS working a 40 hour a week job either inside or outside the home? We see you and are asking a question that maybe you ask every day; why are women still, in a day and age where we make up 55.9 percent of the workforce and where 40 percent are the main breadwinner in the home, still responsible for so much when it comes to child rearing and domestic workload? Our guest this week has created a national conversation about greater equality on the home front with a system she created through intense research that helps couples create balance, by understanding that women are doing what she calls almost all of the “invisible labor” in the home, with at least two thirds of them having a job outside the home as well. Eve Rodsky is a Harvard Law School grad with years of training in organizational management When she had her first child (and began to see her identity at her job being stripped away because of it) and then began the dance of balancing her job with all of her duties as a mother (for which she bore the lion’s share of the domestic and child rearing responsibilities, as so many women do) she started to wonder: what would it be like if couples could reimagine their relationships as to how it relates to rebalancing the work it takes to run a home? So began her “Fair Play” system, where she sets couples up for success in relationship and parenting by helping them change the way they think and talk about their home life.
Jen and Eve discuss:
- The patriarchal history that has been around for centuries that informs why the imbalance of domestic workload still exists when so many other categories for women have been elevated
- How important it is to invite men into their full power into the home, removing barriers and stereotypes as to what men’s and women’s strengths are there
- Changing the notion that women’s time is somehow less important than men’s–and that the “invisible work” women do is toward guarding the time of men
- How the overwhelming pace of work, child rearing and home management eventually ends up making us sick and damaging our relationships, and what we can do about it
BONUS: Eve puts Jen to the test with a question from her Fair Play card deck where we dive deep into Jen’s family values–a question that is illuminating to all of us in understanding each other in relationship.
Thank you to our sponsors!
Make Me Care About…Podcast | Jen is hosting a special podcast series produced by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Check out "Make Me Care About..." wherever you get your podcasts.
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MeCourse: LGBTQIA+ | LGBTQIA+ Parenting e-course from Jen and special guests is available for order. Visit https://www.mecourse.org/lgbtqia-parenting for more info.
Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“Changing and inviting men into their full power in the home is the only way women are gonna be able to step out into their full power in the world.” - Eve Rodsky
“We've convinced women that their time is sand. It's infinite. Whereas we guard men's time as if it's finite like diamonds.” - Eve Rodsky
“We've become complicit in our own oppression. Because since birth we've been taught that our time is worthless. If you don't believe me, just watch what happens when women enter male professions; salaries automatically come down.” - Eve Rodsky
“As one neuroscientist said to me, you're not a better multitasker. Nobody is good at multitasking. We’ve just convinced women that they're better at wiping asses and doing dishes to pave the way for men's free time, their tenure, and their promotions. We can no longer do that.” - Eve Rodsky
“If you believe that you're supposed to hold all the cards, have a life, work full-time for pay, and be in a dual-ambition household. You're gonna get physically sick.” - Eve Rodsky
“I surveyed a thousand people to ask about their most important practice. People say some religious activity or meditation or exercise. I was not surprised that with over a thousand people surveyed, not one said communication.” - Eve Rodsky
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Peter Drucker
Robert Waldinger Ted Talk
Fair Play Life Instagram
Fairlifeplay.com
I’m Glad My Mom Died by Jennette McCurdy - book recommendation
Tiny Beautiful Things by Cheryl Strayed - book recommendation
The Kingdom of Prep: The Inside Story of the Rise and (Near) Fall of J. Crew - book recommendation
Guest’s Links:
Eve’s Website
Eve’s Facebook
Eve’s Instagram
Eve’s Twitter
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
We’re back with maybe the most foundational episode in our Being Seen and Heard series–and it’s all about how we see ourselves. Were you taught how to love yourself when you were growing up? Many of us never grew up hearing anything about embodiment, and maybe we’ve treated our bodies as “the enemy” for most of our years. Maybe you grew up in a time where you didn’t see people that looked like you, or had your body type represented in magazines, on TV or in movies. Perhaps you even had shame about your body (or still do), and you bought into diet culture and were constantly worried about your size and the number on the scale. It’s hard to see ourselves as beautiful when we’re looking outside ourselves for what that standard of beauty is. Our guest today is doing the good work of helping people see themselves differently, and it’s giving them freedom to love themselves for who they are today. Jessamyn Stanley has become a powerful voice for wellness and body acceptance (she also dubs herself the “Beyonce’ of yoga” - I mean who can’t get behind that?). After attending yoga classes with a friend, Jessamyn fell in love with it, but she noticed that she didn’t see anyone who looked like her or had a body like hers–and when she moved to a different city and wasn’t attending yoga classes anymore—she craved a community to share her practice–except she wanted all kinds of people and body types to be a part of it. She began sharing her yoga practice on Instagram back in 2012 and was amazed by the overwhelming response from many who had never done yoga before because they had felt just like Jessamyn had–that maybe it wasn’t for “people like them.” Her fledgling Insta-yoga classes grew into an organization called The Underbelly, a unique and inclusive digital wellness experience that now draws thousands of people into its safe and accepting space.
Jen and Jessamyn touch on these topics:
- Jessamyn’s experience with being ashamed of her body as a middle schooler and also being bullied for being different, and how she looks at those years of bullying as a revelation that everyone is self conscious about their bodies–bullies included
- The realization we all have at the end of the day; all we have is ourselves–and if we can accept ourselves as we are right now–not who we thought we should be, or who we might be–we’ll enjoy the ability to be fully present and authentic in all of our encounters
- Debunking the long held notion that many people have about black women (and also that black women have been taught to believe)--that they are “stronger” and “superwomen,” and what it means to allow themselves moments of rest and self-care
- Key changes that could be made to empower everyone to have their own agency toward self care, by making it possible for anyone–no matter how much money you make, or where you live–to participate in wellness practices like yoga
If we can face the truth about ourselves, and not turn away from the fullness of who we are–including the ugly and complex things, we can begin a journey to a shame-free life that will change the fabric of who we are and what we bring to the world.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“Middle school was a time when I was really heavily bullied. That experience for me, looking back, was one of the greatest experiences because what it was actually teaching me is: everyone is self-conscious about their body. There's no one who is not self-conscious. And the person who bullies is having the most traumatic experience.” - Jessamyn Stanley
“If I am all I have, then I have to learn to accept myself where I am right now. Not where I could be in the future, or where I thought I should have been 10 years ago. Like, what does it mean to just be who I am today?” - Jessamyn Stanley
“Why I continue to practice yoga is because it is an opportunity for me to look at myself and see beyond these barriers that I've created for myself, to see beyond the way that society has defined me, to actually just feel and be present in the moment.” Jessamyn Stanley
“I kept sharing my yoga practice because I realized that it doesn't just help other fat people to see someone living their life unapologetically, but it can impact literally anyone to see another human being living honestly and authentically.” - Jessamyn Stanley
“If I am all I have, then I have to learn to accept myself where I am right now. Not where I could be in the future, or where I thought I should have been 10 years ago. Like, what does it mean to just be who I am today?” - Jessamyn Stanley
“It's been amazing, frankly– in this last decade especially–to see so many more people showing up to their yoga practices, to see specifically so many more black women. Specifically fat black women, fat, dark-skinned black women out here living their yoga practices, being authentic, finding whatever that is for them.” - Jessamyn Stanley
“It's hard to talk about, as a black person, what it feels like to accept that I was bred to hate myself. And so to connect with other people who understand that experience fully to a place where when they're reading my book, they're literally like–it's not like this is a new idea–it's like I just see myself. That has meant the world to me.” - Jessamyn Stanley
“There's this thing of like beating back the darkness and then I think that the darkness becomes so all consuming. The world that we're living in is scary. It's scary and it is dark. And I think in a lot of ways it's gonna get worse before it gets better. And for me though, there is this incredible power that comes from just letting the darkness be there and just letting it be all consuming. Because that is where the light really is. And that's how it shines so bright.” - Jessamyn Stanley
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Leslie Kinzel - Body acceptance writer
Maryanne Kirby - Body acceptance writer
Nicolette Mason - Fat fashion blogger
Dianne Bondi - Yoga practitioner
Bikram Yoga
Guest’s Links:
Jessamyn’s TikTok
Jessamyn’s Instagram
Jessamyn’s Twitter
The Underbelly Yoga
Jessamyn’s People Magazine feature
Yoke: My Yoga Of Self Acceptance - book by Jessamyn Stanley
Every Body Yoga - book by Jessamyn Stanley
@theBabySharkClub - Jessamyn’s dog on Instagram
Connect with Jen!
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If you’ve listened long enough to our show and also follow Jen, you probably know that the conversations we invite come in many stripes—thoughtful, timely, fun, encouraging, helpful, educational and inclusive—plus, we’re not afraid to veer into some of the deeper stuff. Important stuff that is sometimes hard to wrap our heads around, but if we don’t, no change can occur. Whatever we think about gun rights, there are voices to consider who are doing hard work to create a future where kids can safely attend schools, where people won’t be shot just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, where mass shootings become a thing of the past. Wherever you stand on the spectrum of this issue, at the end of the day, many polls show that roughly 90% of us agree that we should have stricter gun laws. So we’re opening the For the Love Floor to someone who is seeing and hearing first hand from families affected by gun violence, who makes it her priority to educate the public, and puts the issue in front of legislators for increased gun safety. Gloria Pan is the VP of Moms Rising, a group of caring moms who take on the most critical issues facing women, mothers and families. She’s the head of their gun safety initiative and works with their membership to accelerate impact on Capitol Hill and state capitols to affect legislative change. She's also been a trusted voice who’s spread the message on CNN, with The Los Angeles Times, NPR, and all kinds of media platforms.
Gloria and Jen have a discussion around:
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The origins of the 2nd Amendment and how the narrative of guns rights proponents has been shaped over the last 50 years
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Practical steps toward what we all can do if we want to make our voices heard about this issue and take action toward better gun safety
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Hope toward a new generation of young people who are engaged in creating a better future and are paying attention in ways perhaps previous generations haven’t
This work is not glamorous and can be full of disappointment, as moving mountains can often be. We’re grateful to people like Gloria who give us a glimpse from inside the fight, and bring us hope that change can really happen.
Thank you to our sponsors!
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Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“Gun violence deaths in this country hovered around 32,000 people a year. That was pretty consistent for many years. Now we're nearing 50,000 and we have so many guns. We have more guns than people in this country.” - Gloria Pan
“We consider all moms and families who care about the future of their families and their communities and our country as our constituency. We very much believe that our job is to bring their voices and their concerns to the policy-making table” - Gloria Pan
“Not too long ago, issues that are concerning for moms and families were never even talked about in Congress. Childcare, paid family and medical leave, and policies that enabled families to be able to care for our families were never even talked about. But because of the work of MomsRising, our partners out there, and moms and families speaking out, it is now front and center for many lawmakers.” - Gloria Pan
"Join us. Help us build this momentum toward this future where the well-being of families is front and center for this country. Because what are we without our families?" - Gloria Pan
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Sandy Hook
Maxwell Frost
Attitudes Toward Gun Ownership in America: Pew Research
2008 Heller Decision
The Bruen Decision
The Cincinnati Revolt
Article on Maxwell Frost and Parkland Florida
Guest’s Links:
Gloria’s Website
Gloria’s Instagram
Gloria’s Twitter
Gloria’s Pinterest
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
It’s another week of our illuminating For the Love of Being Seen and Heard series. We’re talking to people that are doing the life-changing work of helping each other see and hear each other–to see and hear communities that we are not a part of, to see and hear voices that have been traditionally silenced or marginalized, or even to see and hear ourselves in honest and affirming ways. Our guest this week is a powerful advocate, but with a tender heart who works in so many spaces that matter: feminism, racial justice, the arts, activism, self care and healing. Rachel Cargle is a writer and entrepreneur who has created powerful online learning spaces. She’s a regular contributor to Cultured Magazine, The Cut and Atmos. She’s been featured in the New York Times and Forbes as well. Her work centers around an invitation to pursue healing and growth, as well as re-imagining how systems that no longer serve us can be dismantled or changed to embrace justice and liberation. Her belief is that every one of us has power–the power to unlearn, relearn and reimagine–taking ourselves out of stuck spaces and creating places for understanding for everyone. Her thoughts on feminism are so insightful as she looks at how a well intentioned movement for the progress of women leaves out key communities and how reimagining how to see and hear the needs of every woman toward better conditions for all women. This powerful discussion centers around:
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An explanation and brief history of the feminist movement and how communities of color often are left behind in this work
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How the culture, both inside and outside of black communities often stereotype black women as workers, as strong, as able to bear pain differently than their white counterparts; and Rachel’s work to help black women feel cared for–which leads to an amazing ripple effect on families, organizations and communities
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The Loveland Foundation, which gives black women access to black therapists, to self-care and to other resources that are so often not readily or affordably available
- Simple ways that women can get involved in the conversation to become clear about this intersection of feminism and race by hearing and telling truths, and to engage in knowledge, empathy, and action.
Sometimes the truth can be hard to process, but when there is intentionality in how we exist in our efforts toward benefitting the condition of women, the result is liberation for all women.
Thank you to our sponsors!
BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month!
Make Me Care About…Podcast | Jen is hosting a special podcast series produced by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Check out "Make Me Care About..." wherever you get your podcasts.
MeCourse: LGBTQIA+ | LGBTQIA+ Parenting e-course from Jen and special guests is available for order. Visit https://www.mecourse.org/lgbtqia-parenting for more info.
Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“I believe that when black women are poured into, it really offers a ripple effect to most other places in our communities and societies.” - Rachel Cargle
"The systems are insistent on us not being curious. If we're not curious, they must stay the same. And if they stay the same the people who built them to win will continue winning." - Rachel Cargle
"A lot of what I didn't yet know was what it meant to be a black woman in the feminist movement, in spaces full of white women who were having a very different experience than I was, and who were benefiting from the outcomes of our collective work--more than the black women who were doing equal amounts of the work--and sometimes even more of the work in these spaces." - Rachel Cargle
"Empathy that doesn't just say, 'I'm so sorry this happened to you.'" It's empathy that says, 'how do I play into you not having your needs met?' And often there's an answer to that--it's because of my privileges and how those make me blind to what your needs are." - Rachel Cargle
“There is a necessity for us to be critical and to ask questions, and to have this radical empathy that insists that there can be no way that anyone else will rise without all of us doing it at the same time.” - Rachel Cargle
“Truth allows us to change something.” - Rachel Cargle
“When you're vulnerable in America as a black woman, you could die. Your children could die. Your family could die. That's the truth. So there has to be this balance of the fight and the tending, the fight, and the nourishing because one or the other can either harden you or dissolve you.” - Rachel Cargle
“Art's role is to remind us of humanity because if it wasn't there, we would get caught up in the robotics of systems. It’s there to remind us that we're humans as well.” - Rachel Cargle
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Photo of Rachel from the Women’s March in 2017 per Huffington Post article
“Feminism is White Supremacy In Heels” an article by Rachel Cargle in Harper’s Bazaar
Elizabeth Cady Staton
Ida B. Wells
Be the Bridge
Ebony Janice Website
The Loveland Foundation
Elizabeth’s Bookshop & Writing Centre
Rich Auntie Supreme Instagram
The Great Unlearn
Guest’s Links:
Rachel’s Website
Rachel’s Facebook
Rachel’s Twitter
Rachel’s Instagram
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
We’re back for more of our Being Seen and Heard series! In a time where it feels like we are struggling to really see and hear one another, there are some bright lights who make it their mission to help one another understand each other a little better. Our guest today, Sara Cunningham, the founder of FreeMomHugs.org, is one amazing example of what can happen when we really see people for who they are and begin to hear their stories. Sara was on the show right at the beginning of her journey with Free Mom Hugs, and now the org—which started with the simple idea of attending Pride parades and holding up a sign that said “Free Mom Hugs,”—has become a national and world wide phenomenon. She uses her own experience as a guide to how she advocates, and is absolutely passionate about connecting with faith, civic, business, and government leaders in efforts to make the world a kinder safer place for our LGBTQIA+ family.
Sara and Jen touch on these topics:
- Sara’s roots in conservative evangelicalism and how she found herself moving “from the church to the pride parade” after she reckoned with her son’s admission that he was gay and going to live in his identity
- The stories of people who, after coming out, lost their families, were kicked out of their churches, and felt completely alone and found solace and comfort in the simple act of a mom extending a hug
- Sara’s son Parker’s (as well as her own) journey of self-discovery and then coming to live authentically after seeing others, who had come out in faith environments, survive and thrive after loss
- How we can affect change with our voices as it relates to legislation that targets the LGBTQIA+ community
Thank you to our sponsors!
BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month!
MeCourse: LGBTQIA+ | LGBTQIA+ Parenting e-course from Jen and special guests is available for order. Visit https://www.mecourse.org/lgbtqia-parenting for more info.
FOCL | Visit https://focl.com/ and use code FORTHELOVE at checkout for 20% off of your purchase
Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“I remember there was a time, at the beginning of that journey, I call from the church to the pride parade. It was like reality was setting in. The bubble that I was in, the evangelical conservative mainstream bubble that I was in where everyone looked like me and talked like me, had just shattered. And I wanted to take a banner and put it outside of my house on the front door, like, welcome to the real world. And suddenly it's like my eyes are truly open.” - Sara Cunningham
“I think about [my son] Parker early on in his journey of self-discovery and then coming to live authentically. He had people in his life that had survived the loss, who had survived being outed, kicked out of their place of worship and losing their family. Just seeing them go beyond that and thriving and having a place of their own and working and contributing to society; he saw people that had faced what he feared and then came out on the other side of it.” - Sara Cunningham
“Our mission statement is that we empower the world to celebrate the community through visibility, education, and conversation.” - Sara Cunningham, about FreeMomHugs.org
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Mama Bears
FTL Episode ft. Sydney Hatmaker
Kai Shappley’s Website
Free Mom Hugs Revolution Conference
Kimberly Shappley’s Website
Glennon Doyle’s Website
How We Sleep at Night: A Mother’s Memoir by Sara Cunningham
Good Friend with Jamie Lee Curtis ft Sara Cunningham
HRC Oklahoma
ACLU Oklahoma
Freedom Oklahoma
Guest’s Links:
FreeMomHugs Website
FreeMomHugs Facebook
FreeMomHugs Instagram
FreeMomHugs Twitter
FreeMomHugs Youtube
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
We’re back with our series For The Love of Being Seen and Heard. There is so much right now floating around in culture about what happens to us when we don’t feel like we’re either being seen or heard. For most of us, the longing to be understood by others is a core need. And for some groups or communities, including the disabled community, the task of being seen, heard and understood is more challenging, and we’ll hear why as we talk with disabled scholar-practitioner Dr. Amy Kenny. Dr. Kenny has made it her life’s work to shed light on and help clear up misunderstandings around the abled community’s view of the disabled. Her latest book, My Body Is Not a Prayer Request does a deep dive into one of those communities—places of faith—and the particular biases and unintentional ableism propagated there. Amy compassionately offers insight and solutions toward understanding in a new way.
Jen and Dr. Kenny discuss:
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Common misunderstandings that abled people have toward disabled people plus words and actions they can learn from disabled people toward connectedness
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The “invisible qualities of God’s divine nature” and how we might be able to accept imperfections in nature, even considering them beautiful, but are unable to accept or find beauty in the imperfections of our bodies
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“Inspiration porn” a phrase that relates to the overall view of disabled folks being the poster children for overcoming—putting them in the position of feeling as if they are objects on a pedestal and that their sole purpose in life is to inspire the abled
- The challenges around access for disabled people and how to think differently about the right of access for all people
There’s hope in this conversation, and Amy guides us to a place where we can unlearn some ableist tendencies and learn more about a community that has much to contribute to our world.
Thank you to our sponsors!
Chime | Visit https://www.chime.com/apply-debit/?ad=podcast_forthelove to learn how you can benefit from using Chime
BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month!
MeCourse: LGBTQIA+ | LGBTQIA+ Parenting e-course from Jen and special guests is available for order. Visit https://www.mecourse.org/lgbtqia-parenting for more info.
Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“I'm not ashamed of my disability. It's an intrinsic part of the way that I navigate the world and the way that I am treated by the world and by various communities.” - Dr. Amy Kenny
"I grew up in a household and in a church community that taught me that everyone was made in the image of God. And I had the audacity to believe it. Unfortunately, I wasn't treated as though I was made in the image of God a lot of times because I received potions and prayers and all kinds of shaming tactics to try to pray me away, essentially." - Dr. Amy Kenny
"It's a beautiful interdependence that disabled folks bring and that we all can co-flourish when we have interdependence with one another." - Dr. Amy Kenny
"We create this hierarchy of worth in humanity where we have societally constructed ideas of what's normal, who's intelligent, what's productive enough--who's contributing enough. All of those ideas uphold, ableism, racism, transphobia, colonialism, they're all interconnected." - Dr. Amy Kenny
"My body is made of the same stuff as stars. Just watch me shine." - Dr. Amy Kenny
“I have learned from the disability community that I have permission to show up as myself.” - Dr. Amy Kenny
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
My Body is Not a Prayer Request by Dr. Amy Kenny
Georgetown University’s Disability Culture Initiative
Stella Young’s Memorial Website
Maysoon Zayid’s website
Zoom
Guest’s Links:
Dr. Amy Kenny’s website
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
We’re at the tail end of our For the Love of Calming the Chaos series–and if you’ve gotten a chance to hear the whole series, we hope you’ve been able to take away some actionable items toward further peace in your life. Our last episode in the series is the perfect capper toward extending that ability to calm the chaos during the disruptive times of our lives, but also during the heartbreakingly difficult times. Our guest this week brings us the very comforting message that simply bucking up or trying to cheerlead ourselves into positivity isn't going to cut it. She gives us permission to actively accept our sadness, and then some tools for how to process it and move it from chaos to a place of peace. Katherine May is an international best-selling author, including the books Enchantment Awakening Wonder in An Anxious Age and Wintering: The Power of Rest and Retreat in Difficult Times. Katherine is going to walk us through not only her own story of a hard winter season she endured, and what she learned, but she’ll show us how we can be gentle with ourselves and believe that we deserve peace, no matter the circumstances.
Jen and Katherine talk about:
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When those winter seasons come, just when you think you can’t or will never be happy again and the dark pit feels too overwhelming; that’s typically when the winter begins to cease and recovery begins
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Giving yourself grace to believe you haven’t done anything wrong if you’re still suffering a week, a month or even six months later - the process of unlearning your old ways of life and relearning new ones can be painful and lengthy
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Not all the lessons we learn come from happiness, they come from sorrow, and how to accept that
Chaos doesn’t just emanate from choices that we've made or that we've onboarded too many things, but sometimes when tragedy or heartache has found its way to our doorstep. Allowing ourselves to rest and retreat at these times is a gift we can all give ourselves.
Thank you to our sponsors!
Rothy’s | $20 off your first purchase by visiting Rothys.com/forthelove
Make Me Care About…Podcast | Jen is hosting a special podcast series produced by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Check out "Make Me Care About..." wherever you get your podcasts.
Caraway | Save 10% on your next purchase on all Caraway products by visiting carawayhome.com/forthelove and use code: forthelove
Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“One of the defining parts of [a season of winter] is that feeling of being trapped in a space with a window onto the outside world. And it seems like everybody else is carrying on and they're all fine. And you are uniquely not fine.” - Katherine May
“There's something about how raw you are in that time [of suffering]. So there are moments of intense beauty that are an integral part of this, part of the suffering.”- Katherine May
“People who've gone through major winters always seem to look back and say, ‘do you know what? I wouldn't have not gone through it if it meant that I couldn't be who I am now.’ You almost appreciate them because change is always necessary.” - Katherine May
“You are not alone. You feel very alone, but you are actually part of a massive community of other people who are going through the same thing as you, but maybe for different reasons. And there's this incredible bond between all of you that might not be obvious, but you can trust this space and you can trust your sadness.” - Katherine May
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Enchantment: Awakening Wonder in an Anxious Age - book by Katherine May
Wintering, the Power of Rest and Retreat in Difficult Times - book by Katherine May
Guest’s Links:
Katherine’s Website
Katherine’s Instagram
Katherine’s Pinterest
Connect with Jen!:
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
Calling all parents of adolescents, or those of you who are about to have adolescents in your midst–if you’ve been feeling like you’re not sure what is normal in the emotional landscape of teenagers, we’re here to help. Face it—teenagers are literally in the epicenter of chaos–and because they live in our homes, sometimes it bleeds into our lives too. These kids are in developmental flux and there’s so much on them with school work, keeping up grades, extracurricular activities, friends (not to mention friend drama), anxiety about college—it’s a lot. But we can find ways to stand by them in their emotions, without getting too overcome with our own–and help them manage all this chaos in a way that serves them, and serves the whole family. Our guest this week is the perfect breath of calm in the midst of teen emotional chaos–she’s lived it, she studies it and she practices in it. Dr. Lisa Damour is a New York Times bestselling author who has written a book on the subject called The Emotional Lives of Teenagers, in addition to being an expert on adolescent development and family mental health. She and Jen hit the high points of:
- The seven developmental tasks that teenagers face
- Why the emotional world of teenagers is very different than during any other time in their life, and how they navigate emotions and how they express them
- How to know when a teenager is having a mental health crisis or if it’s just a teenager being a teenager
- How to manage a meltdown in nine steps
Dr. Lisa gives us actionable tools to help understand teenagers and gently guide them as they wade through the somewhat chaotic season of adolescence.
Thank you to our sponsors!
Betterhelp | 10% off your first month. Visit Betterhelp.com/forthelove
Make Me Care About…Podcast | Jen is hosting a special podcast series produced by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Check out "Make Me Care About..." wherever you get your podcasts.
Thistle Farms | Use code For the Love for 15%off at checkout. Visit https://thistlefarms.org
Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“There is so much change in an incredibly short period of time. There are so many demands on that teenager in terms of how they're gonna grow, what is gonna be different between when they were 11 to 18. I mean, those are not the same people” - Dr. Lisa Damour
“Teenagers make choices that can have a very dramatic impact on what's available to them in young adulthood, in terms of their options” - Dr. Lisa Damour
"I think so often when we think we're listening, we're not listening. We're waiting for [our teenager] to pause so that we can make a suggestion. That's not listening." - Dr. Lisa Damour
"Once your kid is into adolescence and is more autonomous and wanting more independence, and they come in close and ask for support--savor it and set your watch by the fact that it is gonna end probably within the next 30 seconds and it's not gonna end in a nice way." - Dr. Lisa Damour
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Untangled by Dr. Lisa Damour
Under Pressure by Dr. Lisa Damour
The Emotional Lives of Teenagers by Dr. Lisa Damour
The Ask Lisa Podcast
The Little Mermaid
Dr. Damour’s Bookmarks
Guest’s Links
Dr. Damour’s website
Dr. Damour’s Instagram
Dr. Damour’s YouTube Channel
Dr. Damour’s Twitter
Dr. Damour’s Facebook
Connect with Jen! Jen’s website
Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter
Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
In our ongoing quest to squash the chaos in our lives, we’re talking to two experts (who are in fact sisters) who literally help us create space for our souls and our homes to breathe. Emily P. Freeman hosts the Do the Next Right Thing podcast where listeners flock to hear her soothing voice guide them with small ways to achieve mental clarity and avoid analysis paralysis when making decisions. Her sister, Myquillyn Smith, better known as The Nester, has the superpower of helping us create peace in the physical places we live with smart solutions that tweak our spaces to bring us calm–because when our homes feel out of control, our inner chaos rises as well.
Highlights from this discussion with Jen, Emily, and Myquillyn include:
- How Emily and Myquillyn played with their Barbies as young girls was indicative of the roads they chose later in life
- How sometimes the things that we are influenced to purchase to help us conquer chaos can become triggers for chaos (ie: THE BASKET PEOPLE)
- How to not get bogged down with the pressure to plan your whole life, and how looking at past decisions can inform the decisions you make in the future
- What it means to “quiet a room” in order to bring calm to your living spaces
Join Jen, Emily, and Myquillyn as we all seek a little refreshment for our lives and homes.
Thank you to our sponsors!
Make Me Care About…Podcast | Jen is hosting a special podcast series produced by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Check out "Make Me Care About..." wherever you get your podcasts.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
"We would play Barbies—like I'm talking multiple levels of Barbie life. But the thing is, the way we moved through our Barbie life as kids echoes into adulthood. It is the way that we live our lives as grownups." - Emily P. Freeman
"Decision making and discernment is not something we can quit, ignore, graduate, retire from, or often delegate. It is always with us. Unfortunately, sometimes it's great, sometimes it's not. And let's not forget it is a great privilege to be able to make a choice at all." - Emily P. Freeman
"There are tons of studies about clutter and chaos and what it does to our literal heartbeat, the stress that we feel." - Myquillyn Smith
"Our best teachers for decisions we are going to make in the future are the decisions we've already made in the past." Emily P. Freeman
"The work of discernment is so much less about what should I do or not do? It's about can I trust myself?" - Emily P. Freeman
“If you think of every single singular item in your space, having a voice over the months, over the years, maybe decades—it gets louder and louder.” - Myquillyn Smith
“We think creating a beautiful home is about what we add in, but often it's about what we remove.” - Myquillyn Smith
“If you cannot put your decision into a sentence, then it is not time to make the decision yet.” - Emily P. Freeman
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
The Next Right Thing Podcast
The Next Right Thing Book by Emily Freeman
The Next Right Thing Guided Journal by Emily Freeman
Emily P. Freeman's For the Love Podcast Episode
The Cozy Minimalist
17 Questions that Changed My Life by TIm Ferris
Iris Murdoch
Jamie B. Golden
Westmore Beauty 60sec Eye Effect
Guest’s Links:
Myquillyn's Link's
Myquillyn’s Website
Myquillyn’s Instagram
Myquillyn’s Facebook
Emily's Link's
Emily’s Website
Emily’s Instagram
Emily’s Facebook
Emily’s Twitter
The Next Right Thing Podcast
Connect with Jen! Jen’s website
Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter
Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
It’s time for a good spring read–and what could be better than taking a literary trip to Paris in the spring? We are so excited to introduce you to Kerri Maher, the brilliant author of our latest book club pick, 'The Paris Bookseller.' Kerri is a rising star in the literary world, known for her captivating historical fiction that transports readers to different times and places. Kerri is the author of several critically acclaimed novels, including 'The Kennedy Debutante' and 'The Girl in White Gloves,' which have been praised for their historical detail and complex characters. In ‘The Paris Bookseller’, Kerri takes us to post-WWI Paris, where Maher brings to life Sylvia Beach, the founder of the bookstore Shakespeare and Company. 'The Paris Bookseller' is a tribute to the power of literature and the strength of women. Come be a part of the conversation here with us, and if you aren’t already a member of the Jen Hatmaker Book Club, jump on over to jenhatmakerbookclub.com after this episode to sign up!
Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“It's amazing how much I learned about writing fiction from writing the truth.” - Kerri Maher
“I spent a lot of time in the research stage of that novel feeling inadequate. Who am I to write about these people? I'm just some housewife with five unpublished novels in my attic. And two writer friends from very different parts of my writing life responded to that comment in almost exactly the same way. They were like, ‘but Kerri, this is your novel, isn't it? I was and that was very liberating to me.” - Kerri Maher
“I've really had to embrace representing real people and real time periods. Yes,I want to absolutely do right by them. I want to kind of represent the truth of their essence.. But I also have to cop to the fact and respect the fact that these are my versions of these people.” - Kerri Maher
Kerri’s Links
Kerri’s website
Kerri’s Instagram
Kerri’s Facebook
Kerri’s Twitter
Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode
The Kennedy Debutante book by Kerri Maher
The Girl in White Gloves book by Kerri Maher
All You Have to Do Is Call book by Kerri Maher The Paris Wife book by Paula McClain
A Moveable Feast book by Ernest Hemingway
Ulysses book by James Joyce
Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow book by Gabrielle Zevin
The House of Eve book by Sadeqa Johnson
The Midnight Library by Matt Haig
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
Sometimes, bad things happen (obvi, right?). Many times, we know what’s happening to us in the moment is awful and wrong. We know that it’s painful. But sometimes, we don’t know how bad those things were until that pain shows up again in our lives, maybe years later, in a completely different way. And when these seemingly bad things come up, our lives are thrown into a tailspin—creating chaos and unhappiness and we’re not even even sure why. So how do we begin to identify the source of the darkness? How do we walk toward healing when the muck of our trauma is so deep we feel like we can’t move forward? Our guest this week has navigated through this very thing (and is still navigating it). The chaotic parts, the hard parts, the painful parts. Author and This American Life producer Stephanie Foo had found success in her thirties–working at her dream job and in a loving relationship. But behind her office door she was having panic attacks daily and sobbing at her desk. After years of questioning what was wrong (and blaming herself), she was diagnosed with complex PTSD–a condition that happens when trauma occurs again and again over many years. She was determined to understand this diagnosis, and the result of her findings is a beautiful and powerful memoir called What My Bones Know. Jen and Stephanie have an illuminating discussion around these topics:
- The difference between PTSD and complex PTSD and why that’s an important distinction when it comes to healing
- How an unresolved mental health issue can impact our physical health, which can manifest (as it did for Stephanie) in panic attacks, joint issues, migraines, and endometriosis.
- How our traumas can be handed down through previous generations through our genes, but also through how we were (or weren’t) nurtured.
- What it feels like to pull back the curtain on our coping mechanisms to reveal why we react to things the way we do, or why we put up walls in safe places with safe people
Join us for this very real, raw, but gentle conversation as Stephanie’s story sheds light on how to walk away from chaos into healing.
Thank you to our sponsors!
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BetterHelp | Visit betterhelp.com/forthelove to save 10% on your first month!
Make Me Care About…Podcast | Jen is hosting a special podcast series produced by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Check out "Make Me Care About..." wherever you get your podcasts.
Thought-Provoking Quotes
“You can get traditional PTSD from a single traumatic event. So if you're in a car crash, you can get PTSD. Complex PTSD is kind of like if you were in that car crash every week for five years; it's when the trauma occurs over and over and over.” - Stephanie Foo
“I felt scared all the time and I was burning out at work. I felt unable to actually produce. It was around 2018, and work had always been my constant source of comfort. And no matter how depressed or anxious I was, I would always be able to be productive. So when I found myself struggling to do that, I felt sort of lost.” - Stephanie Foo
“I may have inherited my grandmother's desire and ability to hustle and that might be in my genes. It might be through nurture as well, not nature, and what I was taught as a child. It's kind of a mystery, but it certainly would explain a lot.” - Stephanie Foo
Guest’s Links:
Stephanie’s Website
Stepanie’s Instagram
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Complex PTSD
Malayan Emergency
Road to Resilience Podcast
Elissa Bassist
What My Bones Know - book by Stephanie Foo
What My Bones Know Audiobook
Connect with Jen! Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
Welcome back, Chaos-breakers! We’re here trying to shake things up with another episode in our For the Love of Calming the Chaos–and this ones hitting us right where we live. Relationships; we’ve all got them, some we’re born into, others we choose, and others choose us. But what happens when certain relationships tax our energy, fill us with dread, and drain us of all ability to manage them? We have a great guide today to help us reframe relationships that have become dysfunctional, and how we can minimize the drama and chaos they bring. Therapist Nedra Tawwab is back on the show, and we couldn’t be happier. Nedra’s wildly popular Instagram account brings us life on the daily with her practical tips on recognizing when relationships are out of whack, how they might have gotten there, and how we can survive and thrive in the midst of it. Nedra has written two best selling books Set Boundaries, Find Peace: A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself, and Drama Free: A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships. Nedra and Jen get into the following topics around eradicating relationship drama in our lives:
- The sometimes difficult but very possible ways to begin creating healthy family dynamics
- Finding the courage to have conversations with people when they hurt our feelings
- How to create boundaries and what to do when those boundaries aren’t respected
- Learning how to discern love from dysfunction in our relationships
Life is full of chaos and confusion, and it is important to find a balance between healthy relationships and self-care to maintain peace. Nedra provides us the tools to express ourselves, say no, and be open to uncomfortable conversations.
Thank you to our sponsors!
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“Being a human is a lot of content in and of itself.” - Nedra Tawwab
“Adulthood is really interesting because you have this opportunity to grow up and be your own person. But so many of us are still very much our parent's child. And I mean child in the sense that we’re a little child where [our parents] are still very much ruling what we’re able to do–at least when they're with us.” – Nedra Tawwab
“How often are we willing to have those conversations and let people know they hurt our feelings?” - Nedra Tawwab
“We all have a different capacity to tolerate dysfunctional things.” - Nedra Tawwab
“So we really have to disentangle love from dysfunction, because we often think that because I love these people, I have to accept the dysfunction.” - Nedra Tawwab
“We have to decide how much we are willing to give of ourselves to be in certain relationships with people, family.” - Nedra Tawwab
“The biggest thing we have to focus on is ourselves. And that's really hard because the really easy thing is to change the other person.” - Nedra Tawwab
Guest’s Links Nedra’s Website
Nedra’s Instagram
Nedra’s Facebook
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Set Boundaries, Find Peace book by Nedra Tawwab
Drama Free book by Nedra Tawwab
Connect with Jen! Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
We’re kicking off a new series called For The Love of Calming the Chaos and we’re looking at all the ways chaos invades our lives, how to identify what’s causing it, and how we can forge a way to calmness (at least some of the time). It’s one thing to be busy, tackling the everyday things that need to happen, to feel like you are pulled in a million different directions. It’s another thing to be overwhelmed, where a sense of hopelessness creeps in that the storm of chaos that surrounds your days might never subside. Author and speaker Alexis Jones hit a wall in a life that looked amazing from the outside, but was teeming with chaos and fear on the inside. After several hard-hitting circumstances knocked the wind out of her, she found herself unable to take even the tiniest step forward after living a life that had been full of activity and accomplishments, checking off all the right boxes–and realized she had lost sight of who she really was. Her latest book Joy Hunter: Messy Face Plants, Radical Love, and the Journey That Changed Everything details the story of how she found her way back to herself in the midst of the chaos–and you can too.
Jen and Alexis talk about:
- The moment Alexis realized how the “gift of falling apart” would show her what really mattered
- When a tidal wave of chaos causes us to falter, how we can take steps to do something differently
- What it means to be able to find true joy after true sorrow
- How you can reconnect with a version of yourself that is real and authentic
Thank you to our sponsors!
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Make Me Care About | Jen is hosting a special podcast series produced by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Check out "Make Me Care About..." wherever you get your podcasts.
Thought-Provoking Quotes
“If I don't have these things that I can pull out of my back pocket and impress you with, then maybe I'm not extraordinary at all. And maybe I am simply an ordinary girl. And for me, that was never enough.” - Alexis Jones
“Every single thing that I'd ever thought made me matter, was taken away from me, one after another. And that was the most beautiful invitation I had ever been given to find out who I really was and to start that journey of enoughness.” - Alexis Jones
“We live in a society where it's so easy to numb. It's so easy to distract ourselves so that we don't have to feel all the feelings that are uncomfortable.” - Alexis Jones
“I did everything right. I played by the rules and I checked all the boxes and I did all the things. Aren't I supposed to be happy?” - Alexis Jones
“An ordinary experience like sitting in an RV, eating canned chili with my best friend and my husband, watching an old movie, and thinking, this is the most joyful I have felt in years.” - Alexis Jones
Guest’s Links Alexis’ Website
Alexis’ Instagram
Alexis’ Facebook
Alexis’ Twitter
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
I Am That Girl - book by Alexis Jones
Joy Hunter - book by Alexis Jones
Connect with Jen! Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
Suleika Jaouad joins our show today to discuss her extraordinary book "Between Two Kingdoms." Suleika shares her story of receiving an early-in-life cancer diagnosis and the way that experience changed her relationship to her sense of community and hope.
Suleika is a journalist, writer, speaker, and cancer survivor. She has written for The New York Times, Vogue, and NPR and her memoir “Between Two Kingdoms” details her journey of being treated and recovering from leukemia at the age of twenty two.
Join Jen and Suleika as they discuss the following:
- Suleika's experience of being diagnosed with cancer at a young age and how it changed her perspective in life.
- The vital role of community and support during challenging times, and how Suleika's own community rallied around her during her illness.
- The challenges of writing a memoir and going from a journalist to a memoirist, professionally
- How to practice self compassion while experiencing “Big Grief” in all it’s different stages
Thank you to our sponsors!
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I think as a culture we're so focused on positivity and self-improvement and on living our best lives that we sort of forget how to live in discomfort.” - Suleika Jouad
“We live in a culture where we're told that if we only work hard enough, we can live the life that we've always wanted to live. I've been told that my whole life. And you know, there's that saying that when you make plans, god laughs.” - Suleika Jouad
“I have a post-it note on my desk that's sort of my guiding light in terms of what I'm trying to do when I write. And it says, if you want to write a good book, write what you don't want others to know about you. Yeah. And if you want to write a great book, write what you don't want to know about yourself.” - Suleika Jouad
“With the distance of time, I see that what I initially thought of as a complete loss of my identity was actually an invitation to get closer to my truer self.” - Suleika Jouad
“I was a planner, I was a doer. I was someone who had a one year plan and a five year plan and a 10 year plan, and all of that went up in smoke when I got sick. Yeah. Um, and I realized that for much of my adult life, all four years of it at that point, uh, I really summed up my sense of self based on achievement, based on my work ethic, based on my output, based on my grade point average. Yep. And all of that was stripped away from me when I got sick. I lost my job overnight. I was dependent on my parents as much as I've been since elementary school. That's right. I lost my independence, even my ability to shower alone, which for someone who doesn't like to ask for help, who had always thought of myself as fiercely independent, that was a hard pill to swallow.” -Suleika Jouad
Guest Links Suleika Jouad Website
Suleika’s Instagram - @suleikajaouad
Suleika’s Twitter - @suleikajaouad
Suleik’s Facebook - @SuleikaJaouadPage
Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode “Wolfish” by Erica Berry
“Heads of the Colored People” by Nafissa Thompson-Spires
“Nonviolent Communication” by Marshall B. Rosenberg PhD
Connect with Jen! Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
Are you smack dab in the middle of the Sandwich Years? That precarious time where you’re squeezed between the demands of caring for aging parents and still supporting children? We’re here for you, and we’ve got a friend to the show who is living it out in real time, sharing how she’s getting through it all. Jenny Hutt was the host of the Just Jenny Show on Sirius XM and is now hosting her own daily podcast–all while dealing with the long-term care of her father (and his recent death) and the launching of her adult children out into the world. Jenny and Jen discuss unique issues relevant to the Sandwich Generation:
- Learning to re-calibrate your role as a parent in the lives of your newly “launched into the world” kids
- Dealing with unresolved parent/child issues that sometimes arise with the death of a parent
- Recognizing generational anxiety and equipping ourselves and our children with the tools to handle it
- The importance of relying on a strong network of family and friends to draw from during this time (not being afraid to ask for help).
- Having the hard conversations with your parents about being prepared for their passing (and also making sure you’re taking care of that for your children too)
So whether you’re managing being part of the sandwich generation right now, or you’re mentally preparing yourself for it, or you know someone who is facing it head on, there’s something for all of us to take away from this candid and vulnerable convo with Jen and Jenny.
Thank you to our sponsors!
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“Somebody should have said to us before we had kidS: ‘you're gonna have children and you're gonna be tired and it's gonna be fun when they're babies, but it's also gonna be awful when they're babies. And then, they're gonna grow up and they're gonna leave you. And when they leave you, you're gonna feel like they're gone for good. And you're also gonna feel like you are not gonna make it.’” - Jenny Hutt
“While your parents are still healthy is when you have to have the conversation [about their affairs] and it's pretty simple. It's things like if there are bank accounts, designate somebody to automatically have the bank account upon your death.” - Jenny Hutt
“Ask [your older parents] all the questions you want answers to, because if you don't ask them now, as uncomfortable as they might be, you're never gonna be able to ask them.” - Jenny Hutt
“We all find our purpose at different points in our lives. I think that one of my biggest purposes is to show that you can live through things that feel like you can't live through them.” - Jenny Hutt
Guest’s Links Website
Just Jenny Podcast
YouTube
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Bunny Eyez Eyewear
For You When I Am Gone by Rabbi Steve Leder
Connect with Jen! Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
Another special bonus episode from the “Make Me Care About” podcast from the Gates Foundation with our own Jen Hatmaker talking with another amazing expert about things we may not know about and if we did–we would definitely care! When it goes well, giving birth can be a wonderful experience, but when it goes wrong, it can be deadly for mother and child alike. Too often, where you live, your access to quality care, and in some places–the color of your skin–determines whether or not you live or die during birth.
In this episode, we have the privilege of hearing from journalist, activist, and mom Elaine Welteroth.
Join Jen and Elaine as they discuss:
- How many women die every year during childbirth and pregnancy
- The factors and risks contributing to mortality rates
- Why these deaths are preventable
- The increased likelihood of death for Black mothers
- Why the United States has the highest number of maternal deaths among high income countries
Gates Foundation & Guest Links
Make Me Care About Podcast Series
Gates Foundation
Elaine Welteroth’s website
Resources for this Episode
Gender equality strategy
Maternal, infant, and child health
Connect with Jen! Jen’s Website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
In this episode of our For the Love of the Middle series, renowned clinical psychologist Dr. Shefali returns to the show to discuss her concept of conscious parenting. Those of us in the middle of life who may still be parenting kids at home, or adjusting to parenting adult children who have just launched out into the world–or in any season of the parenting journey, really–will find much to learn as we look back (and forward) at our parenting patterns. Dr. Shefali provides a step-by-step roadmap to help free parents and their children from toxic patterns and expectations, while building a lasting meaningful bond with them. Using her book as a guide, she will introduce us to the five patterns of ego, show us some varying parenting styles (including helping Jen unpack her own parenting style), develop a mindful focus on self-control, and tips on how we can encourage our adult children to parent themselves. Jen and the good doctor will hit some big topics that will inform not only parents, but those of us who wish to discover how we were parented, and how it impacts us now; including:
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Walking through the definition of conscious parenting and the three stages of the parenting map
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Debunking the notion that as parents we are supposed to create happy, perfect superhumans by following traditional parenting rules
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Dismissing the notion that there are good kids and bad kids—and how to avoid using these labels
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Revealing the five ego patterns parents that parents might not even realize inform their quest to raise amazing children
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The three reasons why children act out or misbehave and how you can learn not to shame them for it
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The results of over-parenting and how it shows up in your adult children
It’s never too late to become a mindful parent and set an intention to allow your children to become centerstage in their own lives.
Thank you to our sponsors!
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“The evolution of the planet depends on the evolution of the parent.” - Dr. Shefali
“Everyone wants a new tomorrow. But what we don't realize is that a new future comes with an absolute willingness to disrupt the past.” - Dr. Shefali
“There is no such thing as a good kid or a bad kid. We put these labels based on an egoic agenda. So, what kind of kids are there? Just kids–just humans who are terribly flawed like we are, and terribly, but amazingly blissful like we are. They're just this unique combo and they defy labels.” - Dr. Shefali
“The good girl taken to the extreme becomes self-sacrificial and she begins to lose her sense of self–it typically happens with girls. Then she's in her mid forties and she's like, ‘who am I?’” - Dr. Shefali
“Conscious parenting is not something you are, it's something you become.” - Dr. Shefali
“Punishment, shaming, blaming is never sustainable. I cannot tell you how many times a day I tell parents, ‘Listen, you appear to get control in the moment, but long term, it's going to be unforgiving.’” - Dr. Shefali
“How do we constantly show our presence [to our adult children]? Unequivocal cheerleading. ‘I'm thinking of you. I miss you. I'm remembering you. I I adore you.’ Letting them know they are on our mind, but not involved in their day-to-day. - Dr. Shefali
“When the ego crumbles, proportionately the heart expands, and you then are just this heart-centered being able to connect to other people in a very attuned, compassionate, genuine way. And your children will feel it.” - Dr. Shefali
Guest’s Links
Dr. Shefali’s website
Dr. Shefali’s Instagram
Dr. Shefali’s Facebook
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
“The Conscious Parent” by Dr. Shefali
“The Parenting Map” by Dr. Shefali
Dr. Shefali’s previous interview on For the Love
Connect with Jen! Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
Another special bonus episode from the “Make Me Care About” podcast from the Gates Foundation with our own Jen Hatmaker talking with another amazing expert about things we may not know or care about, but should! This episode gives us the privilege of speaking with Surabhi Rajaram, a Program Officer at the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation who focuses on improving immunization delivery. We dive deep into the world of safe syringes, and why they are so important in saving lives.
Surabhi Rajaram is a true expert in her field, with years of experience at the forefront of improving global health. Today she shares her knowledge on the features of an auto-disabled syringe, and how it physically prevents the user from being able to withdraw the syringe again, ultimately preventing the spread of illness.
Join Jen and Surabhi as they discuss:
- Why safe syringes are so important to effective vaccine delivery
- The importance of investing in scalable syringe manufacturing
- Improving immunization delivery for a safer world
- How preparing for disease threats like COVID requires syringe innovation
Our guest shares their life’s work around investing in safe and effective syringe manufacturing and delivery and how each of us can make a difference in the world of global health by learning more about this important topic.
Gates Foundation & Guest Links
Make Me Care About Podcast Series
Gates Foundation
Guest Surabhi Rajaram’s website
Resources for this Episode
Vaccine Development and Surveillance
Long Term Vaccine Development in Africa
PATH Syringe GAP analysis
UNICEF Syringes explainer video
Connect with Jen! Jen’s Website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
Continuing in our For the Love of the Middle series, we’re having a conversation about something that may impact us as we hit those middle years (or sooner)–caring for our aging parents. With us to be our guide through this sometimes difficult journey is Michelle Boyaner, the director of the documentary film "It's Not a Burden: The Humor and Heartache of Raising Elderly Parents.” As a storyteller, Michelle felt compelled to talk about this particular stage of life, and decided to film her own journey through it with her mother to help others embrace this unique time in a family’s evolution. Jen and Michelle explore the highs and the lows of caregiving for aging parents and how to stay sane and open hearted during the process.
Michelle Boyaner is an award-winning filmmaker, writer, and educator who founded production company Greenie Films with her wife, Barbara Greene. Together they have written, directed and produced a variety of short and feature films that tell stories of caring for aging parents, living with HIV and the challenges of mental illness–all told with their signature humor and deep capacity for compassion.
Join Jen and Michelle as they discuss:
- How to know when it's time to step in with your aging parents
- Honoring and managing your parents feelings of not wanting to be a burden
- Finding humor in the challenging moments
- Why caregivers feel so lonely, even when there are so many in the U.S.
- Moving from anger and frustration with difficult parental relationships to forgiveness
We hope you’ll feel less alone on your caregiving journey as Michelle provides practical advice and encouragement as well as some tough love for those in the middle of this common but not often discussed major life experience.
Thank you to our sponsors!
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“How do you know it’s the right time to step in? If you see a cognitive difference, if there's a change like they're forgetting things–for example, my mom left her keys on the top of the car and sat in the car and didn't know why she couldn't start the car. That’s when you might want to consider stepping in. But how do I start that conversation? How can I place my hand on theirs and then gently sort of take the reins? It’s a tough thing to consider.” - Michelle Boyaner
“By the time we get to this place in life [of caring for our] parents, you are playing a montage of their greatest hits and misses, right?” - Michelle Boyaner
“It’s important to stay engaged with the humor of all situations if you can. That humor is this little cup of water that helps us in between the hard moments. Caring for aging parents has its absurd moments and leaning into the humor of it can sustain us.” - Michelle Boyaner
“You're going to make mistakes. But the thing that becomes most important for those going through caring for an aging parent is to try to find support. Try to find others who have been going through the same thing and ask questions. Talk about how you're feeling. Take care of yourself to fill your tank so that you can help fill your parents' tank.” - Michelle Boyaner
Michelle’s Links
Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Greenie Films Webpage
Greenie Films: Packed in a Trunk: The Lost Art of Edith Lake Wilkinson, It’s Not a Burden; The Humor and Heartache of Raising Elderly Parents, All Around the Nation, Finished Life by Michelle Boyaner
Instagram Account by Heather Spooner: Letter League
Liz Hammond’s Poem: “The women who walk us home”
Connect with Jen! Jen’s Website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
Hey there, For the Love Podcast community! We’re excited to share some bonus episodes from a new podcast from the Gates Foundation, hosted by our very own Jen Hatmaker! It's all about getting to know the innovators who are out there changing the world and opening our minds to things that we might not otherwise think about much, like this first episode–poop! You can look forward to several of these bonus episodes popping into your feed that feature amazing conversations with experts who have shared their insights on the importance of things like sanitation systems, syringes, and even digital money.
Our first episode in the series is all about…Poop! Jen speaks with expert Shannon Yee, an associate professor at the G.W.W. School of Mechanical Engineering at the Georgia Institute of Technology.
Jen and Shannon discuss:
- How safe sanitation is a cornerstone of human health and society.
- Where poop goes when it leaves our bathrooms.
- The importance of investing in safe, scalable bathroom technologies now for future generations
- When will water scarcity impact our bathrooms and what to do about it.
Find out about what happens every time you flush in this very special debut episode.
We’re back in the middle of life with another installment of our “For the Love of the Middle” series. This episode marks the return of the amazing Dr. Jim Burns to the show. He is an author and founder of HomeWord, a non-profit organization aimed at helping families and individuals strengthen their relationships. Dr. Burns has over three decades of experience as a speaker and is the author of books such as “Life With Your Adult Children” and “Finding Joy in the Empty Nest”.
With his typical humor and self-awareness, Dr. Burns draws from his own experiences as a father in the middle of life–and also shares insights from his vast experience working with families and individuals. In this interview he touches on topics like loneliness in older adults, coping with post-divorce friendships, and enabling versus helping your adult children.
Join Jen and Dr. Jim Burns as they discuss:
- Navigating the loneliness felt by those 50 and older and how to prepare for that early on.
- Finding meaningful friendships as a single person in a coupled world.
- Giving advice to adult children without sounding critical.
- When helping becomes enabling with adult children.
- Easing the burden of the Empty Nest by investing in hobbies and community.
Jen and Dr. Burns offer practical advice for maintaining and cultivating adult friendships and how to move through the challenges of parenting adult children with grace.
Thank you to our sponsors!
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“One of the positive things that I saw was that the people who had good adult friends are the people who did well early on and made decisions to join a club and put themselves out there to meet people outside of the soccer games and kid friends. That planning in advance really helped with the empty nest syndrome.” -Dr. Jim Burns
“American adults at 50+ tend to be very lonely people. In fact, there's a lot of studies on this and it's because they don't have replenishing relationships.You know, one of the best phrases that I have in my head on this is, a you know, successful and a well lived life is never accidental. And that takes time.” -Dr. Jim Burns
“If we are always giving our kids advice, which we have been pretty good at for 20 of their years, that advice can be taken as criticism. Even if it's good advice! What they see is that you don't trust them to be an adult.” -Dr. Jim Burns
“What we have to understand as parents, just like when they were five, is that the experience is a better teacher than advice. So you can say to your kid, "Don't touch that fire." But they're gonna touch the fire sometime and then they'll quit touching the fire because they did it one time and it burnt. But it's really hard for us as parents to trust them to learn from their own experiences.” -Dr. Jim Burns
“As a parent, the question we have to ask is, are we helping or are we enabling dependency? And a lot of parents I think are enabling dependency as in, they mean to help. But sometimes we're enabling dependency and doing that in a way that doesn't help.” - Dr. Jim Burns
Jim’s Links
Website: www.homeword.com
Facebook: @JimBurns
Twitter: @DrJimBurns
Instagram: @drjimburns
YouTube: @homewordtoday
Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Homeward
New Life Live
Dr. Burns Books: Finding Joy in the Empty Nest, Life with Your Adult Children
Dr. Burns on Jen Hatmaker in 2018
Connect with Jen! Jen’s Website
Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter
Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
It’s here! Our next series, “For the Love of the Middle” kicks off this week. Many of us are at that middle stage of life, and if we aren’t, we’re going to get there eventually. This series brings life, hope and humor to a period of life which can at times be surprising, confusing, but ultimately, steeped in the wisdom of years lived and the harder work of our 20’s and 30’s behind us. We’re ringing in the start of this series with an amazing first guest; Mary Pipher, a clinical psychologist, anthropologist, and author. In her full scope of work, Mary has pioneered important conversations around motherhood and raising girls.
Mary was the first to bring the effects of culture on mental health to the mainstream, especially for women and girls. She has a deep understanding of how culture can shape our thoughts, feelings, and behavior. Her most recent work has focused on aging intentionally, peppered with her own experience and her work has inspired many people to rethink the way we approach mental health and aging within our society.
Join Mary and Jen as they discuss:
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Pipher's background in psychology and how she became engaged in the cultural conversations about girlhood.
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The importance of cultivating personal resilience and adaptability in aging.
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How society impacts the mental health of girls and women at different stages of life.
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The cultural scripts that influence girls' body image and sexuality, and how they differ from reality.
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The role of caregivers and the challenges they face in taking care of aging family members.
Mary Pipher's work is groundbreaking in exploring the connections between culture, mental health, and their impacts on aging. Her insights are instrumental in shaping the way we approach mental health issues and caregiving, and her activism and writing continue to help women all over the world.
Thank you to our sponsors!
Boll & Branch | These are the softest sheets ever. Get 15% off your best night's sleep at www.BollandBranch.com using promo code ForTheLove.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes!
“One of the things I really love about my life as a 75 year old is I'm very busy, but I can wake up every morning and decide what I want to be busy at. And what a gift that is.” - Mary Pipher
“Every life stage has its joys and its challenges as you know. We know that there's a lot of research that women get happier as they age. They're the happiest demographic in the world.” - Mary Pipher
“if you don't become better, you become bitter. Right? You either grow or you shrink. You don't get to stay the same without growing. We all age, but we don't all grow. And the secret of being happy is growing.” -Mary Pipher
“I very much believe we all find what we're looking for. And if what we're looking for is joy and love and kindness and beauty and laughter, that's what we find.” -Mary Pipher
“So one of the goals of this life state is learning to detach and let go--acceptance of the fact that my world will not be as popular as before. And that means that the light I find is not in other people's eyes, it's gotta be in my own heart.” -Mary Pipher
Guest’s Links! Mary Pipher's Website - www.marypipher.com
Mary Pipher's Facebook - @authormarypiper
Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Mary Pipher's Books: Hunger Pains, the American Woman's Tragic Quest for Thinness, Reviving Ophelia, Women Rowing North, Seeking Peace, The Shelter of Each Other
Simone De Beauvoir: The Second Sex
Jane Jarvis - American Jazz Pianist
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Every person is sexy just because they’re alive, according to this week’s guest in our For the Love of Sex Series; Dr. Alexandra Solomon. Jen & Dr. Solomon talk about how we can discover how to engage with our sexuality free from judgment or expectation.
Dr. Alexandra Solomon is the author of bestselling books, “Loving Bravely” and “Taking Sexy Back” which both seek to empower women to reclaim their sexual journeys. As a highly acclaimed psychologist at Northwestern University, Dr. Solomon regularly presents her findings to people all over the world.
Join Dr. Solomon and Jen as they discuss:
- Talking about sex with your partner
- How to stop settling for less in the bedroom
- Objectively reflecting on your sexual journey without judgment
- The real impact of trauma on our sexual selves
- How desire shifts over the course of a relationship
Dr. Solomon explains the basic premise that undergirds her work; that every person has the right and ability to experience pleasure and joy and connection through sex.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“What stands out first and foremost about women and sex is that we are so completely objectified from the time we're little. That's the nature of patriarchy, is to objectify women. And we learn to objectify ourselves. I don't know how it is for you, but I know I have forever related to my body as a forever fixer-upper project.”- Dr. Alexandra Solomon
“There's an idea that sexiness is defined from the outside in. So in my book, "Taking Sexy Back," that's what we're taking back. We're taking back this idea that sexiness is externally defined. That actually, our “sexy” lives right here inside of us, and it always has. Your sexuality is a part of yourself. It's a part of who you are. It's your embodied relationship with touch and physical expression and pleasure and creativity and play.” - Dr. Alexandra Solomon
“There's going to be dry spells. There's going to be mismatched libidos. There's going to be menopause. There's going to be childbirth and job changes and medical diagnoses. Things are going to happen. So I want couples to be together, shoulder to shoulder, looking at the problem together. It's not my problem or your problem. It's us looking at our sexual connection. How do we as a couple cultivate this, nurture it, tweak it over time? Making love as 50-year-olds is going to look and feel different than making love as 23-year-olds.” - Dr. Alexandra Solomon
“Recovery from trauma is not just about sexual pain or sadness or post-traumatic stress symptoms stopping. Recovery from trauma is also about reclaiming pleasure, reclaiming your right to pleasure, reclaiming a sense of feeling safe inside of your body. I think our capacity for healing is limitless.” - Dr. Alexandra Solomon
“We think that if we're sex positive, it means that we're these super confident vixens and divas, and that we have to be up for anything. But we all struggle with this idea of, "Wait, can I be sex positive and a bit timid? Can I be sex positive and what we would call, quote-unquote, 'vanilla,' or not super interested in being kinky or pushing edges? Sex positivity basically means coming in with the idea that sex is natural and normal, and we're all sexual, and what we're interested in is not weird or pathological. It's coming in from a foundation of positivity.” - Dr. Alexandra Solomon
“Sex problems in a relationship are always the responsibility of both people. It's not about figuring out whose fault the issue is. When I bring up a problem or a concern with my partner, it's about “us”. It's about, "I love us, I believe in us, I value us, which is why I want to talk about this question, observation or concern I have." It's not about throwing our partner under the bus or telling them they're doing it wrong. It's about starting from that place of, "I love us, and this matters.” - Dr. Alexandra Solomon
“It’s important to examine patterns in your own relationship with your sexuality and identify how things from your childhood impact your sexual relationship to yourself and others even 20 years later. Even seemingly simple things like your 6th grade sex-ed class can have an impact.” - Dr. Alexandra Solomon
Guest’s Links Dr. Solomon’s Website
Dr. Solomon’s Instagram - @dr.alexandra.solomon
Dr. Solomon’s Twitter - @ahsolomon
Dr. Solomon’s Facebook - @dralexandrasolomon
Dr. Solomon’s YouTube - @alexandrahs1
Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Reimagining Love Podcast
Dr. Solomon’s books: Loving Bravely & Taking Sexy Back
E-Course: Marriage 101 for the Grown and Sexy
Connect with Jen! Jen’s website
Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter
Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
As part of Jen’s dedication to bringing her community sex education and sexual liberation, we’re opening up a book club episode to everyone. Today Jen’s talking to the original badass sex educator — Emily Nagoski.
Emily created a sea change in the wider culture of how we talk about women’s sexuality and make space for the variety of experiences for women and sex. Since then, she’s become a celebrated speaker and the go-to expert on women’s sexuality. She recently updated “Come as You Are” as the sex science evolved and we’re excited to talk about it.
In this Jen Hatmaker Book Club episode, Jen and Emily discuss:
- Sex not being a biological drive
- Connecting to your own body as a birthright
- Your sexuality being yours and pleasure is the measure of it
- The weight on women to perform pleasure
- The power of mindfulness and connecting to your body
- How to maintain a successful long term sexual relationship with a partner
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“Pleasure is the measure. It is not how often you have sex or how much you crave sex. It is not what you do. It is not who you do it with, or in what room, or in what position. It is whether or not you like the sex you are having.” - Emily Nagoski
“If a feeling happens in you and you're like, "I don't know where this is coming from," that's totally fine. Insight is not required. But in the same way that we complete the stress response cycle, feelings are tunnels, you have to go through the darkness to get to the light at the end.” - Emily Nagoski
“We are in a bad moment around trans rights, around gay rights, around reproductive rights. A very dark moment where misogyny is rising, violence against the LGBTQIA2+ community is rising, and I think a conversation that centers with women's sexual pleasure is a very moderate place to be having a conversation. People can have a conversation and feel confident talking about their own sexual pleasure, which makes it easier to recognize that, "Oh, everyone has a right to this. Everyone has a right to basic bodily autonomy. Everyone has a right to experience the pleasure their body is capable of experiencing." - Emily Nagoski
“When you release pain, it means you have to move through this pain, and a lot of us have spent a very long time hiding from, or medicating, or just tolerating an incredible, intense amount of pain and suffering that was imposed on us, that we never chose for ourselves, and we know that we can just keep marching forward with that pain. And the first dip your toe into processing those difficult experiences feels terrifying.” - Emily Nagoski
“bodies are a disappointment sometimes. They are complicated, and people have feelings about them, but you get this life, your body is the one and only thing you have on the day you're born, that you still have with you on the day you die, and it's the gift that there is of living a human life.” - Emily Nagoski
“There's not a linear progression from broken to normal to perfect. That is not how sex works. We are all always moving through the cycle from the wounds that were created in our bodies in the first couple few decades of our lives to the healing that we're doing for ourselves now.” - Emily Nagoski
Guest Links Dr. Emily’s Website
Dr. Emily’s Instagram
Dr. Emily’s Facebook
Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle Book
Come as You Are Book
Connect with Jen! Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
As our guest today says, “Everybody is here because somebody had sex.” Today we talk to Brandon Kyle Goodman about coming out from the shadows of your own desire. We’re looking at a new era of sex positivity in pop culture and in our lives. In this episode we explore themes from Brandon’s book: You Gotta Be You: How to Embrace This Messy Life and Step Into Who You Really Are.
Listen as Jen and Brandon discuss:
- Sex in Culture, The Importance of Diverse Representation
- Subverting Gender Norms in the Bedroom
- Understanding Brandon’s Non-Binary Gender Identity
- Exploring your Sexual Identity with Radical Self Acceptance and Love
- Coming Out and the Importance of Chosen Family
It’s a new day for sex in our media, our bedrooms, and in our minds and hearts! This conversation illustrates the unbelievable freedom to be found in honoring your sexual identity. Share a moment with Jen and Brandon as they walk the path towards personal sexual liberation and finding peace within yourself.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I fully believe that if you can tap into the vulnerability in the bedroom, you'll find your power everywhere else.” - Brandon Kyle Goodman
“I always say self-love is the thing that saved my life. It is real. Loving yourself and knowing that you're worthy and filling your cup up. Pop culture tells you that your body, your skin, your gender is wrong. It is a radical act to love yourself in our world, but get about the business because on the other side of that is a life worth living.” - Brandon Kyle Goodman
“All of us exist because somebody had sex. That's how this works. That's why you're here, so why are we pretending our parents don't do it? It's all as you said, it's a separate thing. It's put in a box and we don’t talk about it. Why can't we all be talking and learning and exploring and saying, "Oh, how did you ask about that? How did you get him to do that? How did you get her to do that? How did you navigate this?" The more we don't talk about it, the more shame we have, and so sex positivity is so important.” -Brandon Kyle Goodman
“Give yourself permission to try things without feeling like it has to define you.” - Brandon Kyle Goodman
“There's so much shame I think that queer folks inherently have around their sexuality. I think women also have this. No, I don't think–I know women also have this. Our bodies are policed, our sexuality is policed.” - Brandon Kyle Goodman
“I would say you have one life. Are you going to live it for you? Or you can live it for somebody else. I had a teacher who was in the closet and I found out after his mother passed that he finally came out, but at that point, he was in his 50s, and now it's this whole life that you've missed for this other person. Do it in your own time, but don't miss out on your life for somebody else's approval.” -Brandon Kyle Goodman
“Let's hold multiple truths. Multiple things get to be true. The freedom to be you can be liberating and allow you to live your best life, but also there is a pain and a sadness and a longing from losing the people that may not be able to support you on that journey.” -Brandon Kyle Goodman
Brandon’s Links Website: www.brandonkylegoodman.com
Insta: @brandonkylegoodman
Twitter: @brandonkgood
Youtube: @brandonkgood
Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Brandon Kyle Goodman acts and writes for shows: Big Mouth, and Human Resources on Netflix
Brandon Kyle Goodman’s Book “You Gotta Be You: How to Embrace This Messy Life and Step Into Who You Really Are”
Tricia Hersey’s Book “The Nap Ministry”
The Nap Ministry’s Instagram
Connect with Jen! Jen’s website
Jen’s InstagramJen’s Twitter
Jen’s FacebookJen’s YouTube
For this episode of the Sex series, we’re getting some adult sex education we wished we had learned when we were younger. Specifically around messages young men received around sex, and how this now manifests with toxic masculinity which unfortunately, seeps into the bedroom. Our guest today helps us find ways we can change these sexual narratives. While not all of us are in sexual relationships with men, the reality is that the way in which men perceive their status in the bedroom affects their roles outside of the bedroom. And when toxic masculinity is driving that inner monologue, we all lose. So today we’re addressing the ways this can affect us all, not only the cis hetero men in our lives.
A licensed sex coach and therapist, Cam Fraser teaches sex education for cis hetero men and their partners. As someone who has been hurt by unhealthy masculine culture, he’s passionate about changing toxic masculine narratives that affect us all, and freeing men up to be the fully realized humans they are longing to be (whether they know it or not).
In this episode, Cam and Jen discuss:
- Ideas on how to start conversations with your partner about sex
- Desire discrepancies in relationships and the difference between responsive and spontaneous libido
- Taking responsibility for your own arousal
- The spectrum of intimacy inside and outside the bedroom
- Unhealthy sexual narratives that feed toxic masculinity
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
"I think that it is a very detrimental story we are telling each other as men--that men's libido is high and unwavering and it's just purely physical, there's no emotions attached to it--men just want sex all the time. And women are telling men that too because we all got that same story." - Cam Fraser
“Overall we see a lot of over-pathologizing, over-medicalizing of male sexuality. I think that's a real issue, but one of the major ones I see is, "Oh, I'm not man enough because I don't want sex all the time," or, "I'm not jumping my partner every five minutes, so I must be broken.” - Cam Fraser
“It's important to understand. There's a difference between physical arousal and mental subjective arousal.” - Cam Fraser
“I think we live in quite a sex and pleasure negative society. And so conversations around sex are still, even though we're pushing for them to be more mainstream, they're still considered quite taboo.” - Cam Fraser
“Conversations around sex can be really charged. If you're able to take some of the intensity out of those conversations and take some of the seriousness out of those conversations and keep it a little bit more playful, keep it a little bit more curious and lighthearted, then that's going to serve you well.” - Cam Fraser
“There is a need for men to diversify their intimacy in terms of how they get their intimacy needs met.” - Cam Fraser
“It's super important to have intimacy needs met in a diverse amount of ways. Because if you don't and then you get into a relationship and your partner is the only person that you can do that with, you're putting a lot of pressure and responsibility on your own as well and that can be detrimental to a relationship.” - Cam Fraser
Cam’s Links
Cam's Instagram - @thecamfraser
Cam's TikTok - @thecamfraser2.0
Cam’s Website
Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Dan Savage Website
Brené Brown's episode with Jen Hatmaker
Trevor Noah on Lack of Male Intimacy
Connect with Jen! Jen’s Website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For January 2023 we’re excited to connect with an author who worked with Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg and penned a book featuring her many writings and thoughts titled My Own Words.. As one of Judge Ginsburg’s official biographers, Mary selected the writings and co-wrote the introductions to each chapter, providing biographical context and quotes gleaned from hundreds of interviews they had the pleasure of conducting the illustrious RGB. She shares about the special moments she had with the judge herself, in addition to some of her more notable writings, which are truly inspiring.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“Sometimes I think people become famous and important, and then they say, ‘Okay, now I can throw a few scraps.’ But this was not [Ruth Bader Ginsburg] from the very beginning. Even in her very first briefs, she would cite in the brief, or even put as an author of the brief, someone whose work she found incredibly important with their permission, even though they had nothing to do with the case. It meant a lot to her to give credit to others who had inspired her. “ - Mary Hartnett
“[Judge Ginsburg] did see that especially for younger people, learning the story and in really challenging times to represent this idea that things still can be better and more fair for everyone in the future, I think she got that.” - Mary Hartnett
“[Judge Ginsburg] strongly believed that gender equality is good for everyone. Gender discrimination hurts everyone. It hurts men, women, others, children, our society, our country, our world. And so she firmly believed that.” - Mary Hartnett
“Change wasn't just this intellectual thing that mattered to her. It was changing individuals' lives so that a young girl could hope to be a Supreme Court Justice or an astronaut. Not just a boy could have those hopes and dreams.” - Mary Hartnett
“Everyone can't be Ruth Bader Ginsburg, but everyone can do something on the issues that they care about, which may be completely different than the issues that she cared about.” - Mary Hartnett
Guest’s Links
Mary Hartnett Author Page
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As part of our For the Love of Sex series, we are talking to a Hollywood intimacy coordinator about the nitty gritty of consent, the emerging role of intimacy coordinators in Hollywood, and the future of creating consent culture on film and TV sets. There are ripple effects into the wider culture at large that happen when we prioritize safety and consent.
A viral content creator on TikTok and CEO of her own company, Jessica Steinrock is helping change the way we understand consent on TV & film sets. Our favorite quote of hers is ‘’‘Yes’ means nothing unless ‘No’ is an option.”
In this episode, Jessica and Jen discuss:
- The historical context of consent in film and TV
- How intimacy coordinators cultivate consent
- Jessica’s definition of consent
- The power of pairing media literacy and sex education
With her own company, Jessica is providing a framework for how we can experience consent in a variety of workplaces and helping change the way an entire industry approaches consent.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
"When actors have a sense of what's going to happen to their bodies, they know the arc of the scene. They have a time to think about how their character would want or move in those positions. They then layer on their acting onto this movement scaffold. And we create a better story. Because when actors are safe, they do their best work." - Jessica Steinrock
"I love steamy scenes. I love spicy scenes. I am a romantic connoisseur in my media. I love it all. And I think what makes me love it though is knowing that these actors are safe while doing that, these actors are excited to tell those stories. That they weren't coerced into doing it because they think it's going to give them their break." - Jessica Steinrock
“[intimacy coordination] is a relatively new field and a rare field where women are the majority. What we need to see is a more diverse pool of intimacy coordinators. So, that we have more of those voices impacting and supporting women of color, black trans women, actors who have historically marginalized characteristics.” - Jessica Steinrock
Jessica’s Links
Jessica's Instagram - @intimacy_coordinator_
Jessica's TikTok - @intimacycoordinator
Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Intimacy Directors and Coordinators Website
SAG-ATRA Intimacy Coordinator Resources
Connect with Jen! Jen’s Website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
“Good girls”, “naughty girls”, women with too tight skirts or too high heels. Women’s sexuality is being scrutinized and judged by forces outside of ourselves no matter what form it takes. Our guest today is Gina Gutierrez who seeks to empower women to stop listening to these outside voices and start listening to our inner eros by tuning in and turning on with audio erotica. We could not be more…excited.
TedX speaker with over 1M views, and member of the Forbes Under 30 2020 list, Gina Gutierrez is celebrated for her work focusing on using the imagination to ignite women’s sexuality. With her co-founder Faye Keegan she created the app Dipsea to help women define their desire in an empowered way through audio erotica stories.
In this episode Gina and Jen discuss:
- The link between sexual fulfillment and the imagination
- Celebrating selfishness in prioritizing sexual pleasure
- Uncovering and healing the shame of “feeling different”
- How embracing the erotic gives us our power
With Dipsea, Gina is helping provide a framework for how we can safely explore our fantasies and prioritize our own pleasure resulting in us being better lovers, caregivers and friends.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
"Desire isn't a problem to be solved — it's a fire to be stoked." - Gina Gutierrez
"The brain is the biggest sex organ and everyone can benefit from expanding their sexual imagination." - Gina Gutierrez
“This idea of just giving up on what's possible to make you feel good and excited and make you want to turn towards your partner versus away from them or whatever it means to you, that felt like such a loss.” - Gina Gutierrez
“Nobody ever suggested to us that it was important or valuable to find out what turns us on ever. That was nothing that was ever suggested to us. In fact, it was kind of the opposite. A lot of us came up feeling like this is not something good girls say, we do not have this conversation.”
- Gina Gutierrez
“Maybe you don't have less of an interest in sex than you thought. Maybe you function differently than you thought. And maybe actually products, experiences, and stories that made you feel more comfortable and made your brakes less, 'I don't want that,' stop slamming your brakes so much could make you relax into pleasure." - Gina Gutierrez
Dipsea’s Links Dipsea Website - www.DipseaStories.com
Dipsea Facebook - @DipseaStories
Dipsea Twitter - @DipseaStories
Dipsea Instagram - @DipseaStories
Dipsea TikTok - @DipseaStories
Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Dipsea Website with Jen’s Link (dipseastories.com/jenhatmaker)
Ted Talk by Gina Gutierrez
A Billion Wicked Thoughts
Dr. Emily Nagoski: Come As You Are
Dr. Emily Nagoski - For the Love Podcast Episode
Dr. Emily Nagoski: Podcast
Audre Lorde reads Uses of the Erotic: The Erotic as Power on YouTube
Audre Lorde’s “Uses of the Erotic: The Erotic as Power” Essay Text
OMG Yes - The Science of Women's Pleasure
Jen’s FTL Enneagram Series
Connect with Jen! Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
Welcome to our first episode in our For the Love of Sex series! We’re excited to break open this topic and find ways to cultivate what sexual health means for each of us and lay down toxic perspectives surrounding sex in our lives. Today we’re talking about sexual shame and how that can show inside and outside the bedroom. Matthias Roberts is a psychotherapist, author and podcaster. He wrote a book on sexual shame called “Beyond Shame: Creating a Healthy Sex Life on Your Own Terms” and is committed to helping people find freedom feeling shame around sex.
Jen and Matthias discuss:
- A working definition of what sexual shame is
- How Matthias’s perspective on sex shifted after coming out in a Christian fundamentalist home
- Questions to ask ourselves to develop our own sexual ethic
- How sexual shame can affect every area of our life
- Ways to stay curious and let go of shame about sex
- Matthias’s queer theological perspective on sex
The ways shame can seep into our lives is surprising. Join Jen and Matthias as they unpack, with a compassionate lens, how to stay curious and work toward kicking the shame-filled parts of our sex life to the curb.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“Sexuality is also a really core part of who we are. How we experience or do not experience sexuality is identity construing, and it should be. It is part of who we are.” - Matthias Roberts
“We have our shame, we have our sexuality, and then we have our divine, or our beliefs around the divine, and what the divine commands of us or doesn't command of us around our sexuality. And when those things play together, we can get a pretty nasty mix really quickly.” - Matthias Roberts
“So many of us try to push shame aside. That's our default, "Push it aside. We're not going to pay attention to this. This hurts." Or we get shut down by it, but we never quite take the time, or a lot of people don't take the time to really listen and figure out what the shame is actually telling us. And I think that's a really, really important place to start, because if we don't know what we're working with, the particularities of the shame, then how do we actually work with it?” - Matthias Roberts
“I think there's something around queerness and the ways that queer sexual ethic or queer ways of thinking around sexuality can actually free everyone up.” - Matthias Roberts
“What would it mean for our bodies to be good as they are right now? Can we get curious about that? If we feel I have a bad body or that sense of inferiority, what does it mean that my body as it is, right now, in this moment, might actually be good and can bring me pleasure?” - Matthias Roberts
“Shame disconnects us. It disconnects us from our bodies, from our communities, from our partners. Sex connects us. It is ultimately a connecting force. So we can actually use our sexuality as a way to reconnect to our bodies, reconnect to our partners.” - Matthias Roberts
Guest’s LinksMatthias Roberts Website
Matthias’s Facebook
Matthias’s Instagram
Matthias’s Twitter
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Beyond Shame: Creating a Healthy Sex Life on Your Own Terms
For The Love Podcast Episode with Jay Stringer on Purity Culture
For The Love Podcast Episode with Brene Brown on Vulnerability
Sex, God, & the Conservative Church
Pure: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Shamed a Generation of Young Women and How I
Normal Gossip Podcast
Holy Runaways: Rediscovering Faith After Being Burned by Religion
Connect with Jen!Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
So much is happening in real time in our world, obviously. And as a weekly podcast we can’t always speak immediately into the events that happen around us that need a bigger conversation. So we decided to take the time to look at those happenings, find some people who could walk us through the big events that have happened in the last 4 or 5 months and pop in with some conversations outside of our regular series for our premium subscribers. We’re talking about events that have us rethinking our stand on different issues, legislation being passed or overturned, and justice issues–all in an effort to understand what's at the core of each one and figure out how to react. This week, we’re looking at issues around gun control. Wherever your entry point into this discussion is, it’s something that’s been top of mind for many of us in the wake of a horrific shooting like the one that happened in Uvalde, Texas this year. You may find this shocking, since the divides on this are reported with great zeal via the media, but according to Gallup, a great majority of us believe in the right to own guns. And a whopping 92% of us favor background checks on Every. Single. Gun. Purchase. So, what’s the big hubbub about gun control if we’re nearly all in agreement? Because right now background checks aren’t required for every single gun purchase. Millions of guns have found their ways into the hands of those who are using them for criminal purposes, via sellers who don’t do background checks. Consider that fact alongside the stat that firearm deaths are the highest among teens and young adults between 18-34. How can this be, and how can we change it? That’s what we’re stepping through in this episode with Diana Oestreich, a veteran combat medic who served in Iraq. Diana’s an activist who is a self-proclaimed “peace wager” and she’s returning to our show to walk us through what’s going on and what we can do to change the situation to make the world a safer place for our kids. And spoiler alert: it doesn’t require everyone to have to hand over their guns.
Thought-Provoking Quotes
“Just this year, guns are the number one killer of kids in America. That demands action and I'm committed to it.” – Diana Oestreich
“I totally believe that it is A-okay to own a gun. I come from a family of hunters, I am the daughter, the mom, the sister of hunters. Is there a place in the American battery of rights to own an AR-15–a weapon of war? Do you need a weapon of war? No, you don't. Do you know that a grenade is a weapon of war? It is illegal. No American can own a grenade. And that’s a good thing.” - Diana Oestreich
“The antidote to despair is action.” – Diana Oestreich
“The most powerful thing is that our kids know that they are part of doing good in the world. That's something that will make them resilient to violence.” – Diana Oestreich
Diana’s LinksWebsite
The Waging Peace Project
Connect with Jen!Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
This episode of our What If Series asks; what if we looked inward to discover what makes us tick, who are the voices shaping us, and why are we choosing them? We also consider the question; who’s the most important person in your life? The answers most people give are what you’d expect, but our guest this week proposes that we dig deeper to find a different answer that will ultimately change how we approach life.
Our guest, Dr. Corey Yeager, is a psychotherapist for the Detroit Pistons, a life coach, and an author. He appeared in the documentary, The Me You Can’t See, by Oprah and Prince Harry, and recently released a book that poses 40 questions we should be asking ourselves as we create a roadmap to discover our purpose and explore who we want to become.
In this episode Dr. Corey and Jen discuss:
- Becoming a psychotherapist for NBA players
- How self talk affects our outlook
- Why asking intentional big questions can reframe our life
- How the timing is now for a love affair with yourself
The most important conversation you can have is the one with yourself. Dr. Corey gives us the guidance and encouragement to do just that. Join Jen and Dr. Corey in an insightful discussion of self love, self talk, and staying curious.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“Most people have never thought about being a genius, ever. They would tell you, ‘I'm not a genius. I'm not a genius.’ But if someone says, ‘No. Be still. Think through this. Yes, you do have a genius. What is it?’ If you had to sit with that and play with that and grind with that, it would produce ... And actually not just the answer. The answer is not the key. The process towards the answer. The things that you play with, that you work through, that you cried through, that you laugh about. That is what we want more of." - Dr. Corey Yeager
“I believe that at about nine, 10, 11, up into the 12, 13 year old range, we are handed a set of values. Our people around us, my grandparents, my mom, dad, my brother, they handed me a set of values. I didn't really get much say in it. They handed them to me and I agreed with it because I love my people. So then after I'm 12, 13, 14 years old, I move into the world holding those values, moving through the world with those values and never really re-engaging or checking in with myself to say, does that still work for me?.” - Dr. Corey Yeager
“Discomfort should be an indicator that I'm growing into something that is quite important. So I think this indicator is something that will give us a signal.” - Dr. Corey Yeager
“I submit that it is time for us to have a love affair with ourselves. I need to love me. And I'm glad my wife loves me and I'm glad my mama loves me and my kids love me. I'm glad, Jen, that they love me. But the most important love that I'm going to have is mine. If you don't know yourself, it's very hard to love yourself.” - Dr. Corey Yeager
“So instead of using jealousy and just letting it sit, how about if we looked at those jealous moments, understood it as desire, and allowed that to become a GPS that told us where we wanted to head.” - Dr. Corey Yeager
“We all hold the answers to everything we need. Everything that happens in my life today, I am fully equipped for. Anything that occurs, I'm fully equipped for, for this moment. And if we trust that, if we understand our lives as such, then we can move with confidence.” - Dr. Corey Yeager
Guest’s LinksDr. Corey Yeager Website
Dr. Corey's Facebook
Dr. Corey's Twitter
Dr. Corey’s Instagram
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
How Am I Doing: 40 Conversations to Have with Yourself
The Me You Can’t See
Connect with Jen!Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
This episode of our What If Series asks what if you have big dreams and what if you didn’t let failure stop you from trying?
Our guest is entrepreneur Kendra Scott, an intrepid businesswoman who built a billion dollar business while carrying her baby boy to sales meetings. She started with $500 and eventually created her dream, a 97% women run business that gives back to the community in meaningful ways. She breaks down the “why” and the “how” of building a jewelry empire and that asking for help from her people was key to her success.
In this episode Kendra and Jen discuss:
- Failing at her first business with a kid and no college degree
- Where her “Why” came from
- Intentionally building a woman and mom-centric business
- The importance of asking for help
The What If’s of our past can bury us under, so we never dream of our next things. But some of our next steps can be found in the rubble of our failures. Join Jen and Kendra in an honest discussion of entrepreneurship, motherhood, and community.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“Because the ones that don't even try never know. And even if it doesn't work out, even if you fail. And I failed, I failed in my first business, that failure was the greatest education I ever got into business. It was my bridge to help me build the successful business I have today. And I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you, Jen if I didn't have that failed business. So I think for anyone out there scared, I always say, and I wrote this in Born to Shine, in my book, is put yourself in the worst case scenario, really think about it. And then you go, okay, you lived in that moment, and it wasn't so bad. Now I know what that's like. So now I'm going to just try to go for it." - Kendra Scott
“Sometimes, we get ourselves buried in what ifs of our past and they hold us down from moving forward to our what ifs of the future, the dreaming what ifs.” - Kendra Scott
“It is so hard in the moment to sometimes see the forest through the trees kind of thing, to see your way through. And it sometimes takes getting to that other place to then realize and you can see the path exactly back to where you began and why you had to go there.” - Kendra Scott
“And I think if we can start taking those nos or the naysayers or the dream stealers and start to actually, when they say those things, get excited, make it more like, ‘Ooh, tell me I can't do it. Tell me, please.’ Ooh, I like it when someone tells me I can't do something because then I'm like, ‘Woo, let's go.’” - Kendra Scott
“Stay open because we don't know what's going to come next.” - Kendra Scott
I think for me, I'm still that dorky girl from Wisconsin. And I think sometimes I hope that the book too just knows that as these things happen, some people, it can affect them. And for me, I'm still me.” - Kendra Scott
“Anything is possible. I promise you. I know in some moments it doesn't feel like they are, but if you can get your mind to know that you got this burning amazing light in your story, is what makes you great. So don't be ashamed to share who you really are.” - Kendra Scott
Guest’s LinksKendra Scott Website
Kendra Scott's Facebook
Kendra Scott's business Instagram
Kendra Scott’s personal Instagram
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Born to Shine: Do Good, Find Your Joy, and Build a Life You Love
Connect with Jen!Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
In this episode of the What If Series, we are asking some big questions around using your experience and skills to start something completely new or get imaginative on how you can positively affect your community with what you already have. What do you bring to the table with the whole totality of your experience that could be a force of good for your community or for the people around you?
Our guest is leader and teacher Emily Pillton-Lam, an inspiring thinker and author of several books and creator of the nonprofit – Girls Garage. She’s taught thousands of gender expansive youth how to use power tools and to dream of a world built more equitably and sustainably, and she’s dreamt about what it would look like if girls/women were empowered to facilitate the surroundings in our world differently–with an eye toward thinking more communally and factoring in the lived experience of the people around them.
In this episode Emily and Jen discuss:
- The shocking statistics around gender imbalance in Architecture, Engineering and Construction Worlds
- Why power tools can make you feel superhuman
- How it takes messy courage to change course and start something new
- Dreaming of a world built by women
Emily gives us insight into the big “what if” question we might all ask ourselves: what if we could affect our world with the skills and experience we have right now?
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I think what I discovered through the act of building was both the physical power of it, like I could build something that was tangible and I could point to it and say I built that and we built that as a group of people, working together. Also, this was one of the first times where I looked around and there were other teenagers who were diverse, who were from all over the country, who had all kinds of various family stories, school experiences and yet, we were all on this construction site, building this thing together and it just felt ... like a light went off. This is the thing that makes me feel powerful and purposeful and that I don't have to check who I am at the door, that I could be my full self. So that's the gift that I think construction gave to me at a young age, and it's a gift that I have committed my adult life to paying forward and paying back and giving back to other young people." - Emily Pilloton-Lam
“For women, a lot of our lives are influenced by, or sometimes dictated by how we view our bodies in the world.” - Emily Pilloton-Lam
“So this is how I think about power tools. Of course, they're fun, they're exciting to learn, but they're like a real metaphor for what women can do and what women can contribute in the world in a physical way.” - Emily Pilloton-Lam
“I think going to an art school and studying architecture was the thing that then set me up to start a nonprofit that was rooted in who I was, but also, this larger idea about service that would bring other people in too.” - Emily Pilloton-Lam
“I got to work with people that sometimes I didn't agree with. I got to be in rooms where I sometimes didn't belong. I learned a lot from those couple years where I wasn't doing what I ultimately wanted to do.” - Emily Pilloton-Lam
“One of the first things that you see when you walk [into Girls Garage], in our reception area, on the left-hand wall, there's a tiled wall, there's all these wood tiles and every tile has the name of a student who's been here and there's like a thousand of them. So you walk in and your name is literally on the wall, alongside hundreds of other girls, so you don't ever have to doubt that you belong here.” - Emily Pilloton-Lam
“What matters to me is that no matter where you end up, you've been in a place where you know what it feels like to be seen and respected. Then, you can go and demand that when you don't feel that way later.” - Emily Pilloton-Lam
“It's actually incredibly hopeful to me when I think, what would the world look like if it was built by women or by more people of color or by people with differing physical abilities or people of different ages.” - Emily Pilloton-Lam
“I firmly, firmly believe that a world designed by women is a world designed for everyone…women think about space and think about belonging and public space in a very different way, and it's often more equitable, often more communal and more considerate of the human experience..” - Emily Pilloton-Lam
“Women are good for the world, period. We think communally, we think about our neighbor. We think about the lived experience of the people around us in a way that's really special and specific.” - Jen Hatmaker
Guest’s LinksEmily Pilloton-Lam's Website
Girls Garage's Facebook
Girls Garage's Instagram
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Emily’s Article “To Remake the World, Give Girls All the (Power) Tools”
Girls Garage Website
If You Build It Documentary
Emily's Ted Talk "What If Women Built the World They Want to See"
Girls Garage Book "How to Use Any Tool, Tackle Any Project, and Build the World You Want to See"
Connect with Jen!Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
We’re knee deep in our What If Series and we’re bringing a twist to the conversation. This powerful interview is a note-taking worthy one; a powerful conversation on one of the most misunderstood emotions we have as humans: regrets. How can we harness our regrets toward forward momentum instead of drowning in them?
Our guest is writer and researcher Daniel H. Pink, a fascinating thinker and author of several books–five of them New York Times bestselling works. His latest book is The Power of Regret: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward.
In this episode Daniel and Jen discuss:
- Basic neurology behind regret
- How age can affect regret
- The four main types of regret we all feel
- How to vaporize the negative effects of regret through practical to dos
Daniel teaches us to confront our regrets, listen to our regrets, use them as data, as feedback, and draw lessons from them. He shows us the evidence from social psychology, that if we deal with our regrets properly, we can become better problem solvers, strategists and ultimately find more meaning in life.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“One can listen to the stories of other people, and if they have a little bit of mileage on them as I do, they can stop and say, "What are the lessons anybody can learn from this?" - Daniel H. Pink
“What do you do when nobody's watching? What do you do? Because it's who you are. And it took me a while, Jen. It took me a while to realize like, ‘Hey, wait a second. I think I'm a writer.’” - Daniel H. Pink
“Everybody has regrets. So if you feel regret, it doesn't mean that you're flawed. It doesn't mean that you're doing it wrong. It means that you are a human being. In fact, what we know from a whole pile of research here, so there's 50 or 60 years of research in social psychology, in cognitive science, in neuroscience, in developmental psychology, what it tells us is that regret is one of the most common emotions that human beings have. It's arguably the most common negative emotion that human beings have. It is ubiquitous in the human experience. We have piles of evidence showing that regret is omnipresent in our lives. It is everywhere. In fact, it's so prevalent, Jen, that if you lack regrets, that's probably a sign of a problem.” - Daniel H. Pink
“Regret is a very complicated, sophisticated kind of emotion. It involves traveling in time in your head, negating things that really happen, coming to the present. It's very difficult.” - Daniel H. Pink
“We have a half century of evidence showing that if we process our regrets in a systematic, intelligent way, don't ignore them, don't get wigged out by them, but listen to them, they can make us better.” - Daniel H. Pink
“I've made so many decisions in the last week, most of which I don't remember, but there were decisions and indecisions and actions that happened three decades ago that not only I remember, but that bother me. That's a very strong signal.” - Daniel H. Pink
“Regret clarifies what I value and instructs me on how to do better.” - Daniel H. Pink
“Foundation regrets, if only I'd done the work. Boldness regrets, if only I'd taken the chance. Moral regrets, if only I'd done the right thing. And connection regrets, if only I'd reached out. And around the world, those seem to be the foremost prevalent types of regret.” - Daniel H. Pink
“We fear that when we are vulnerable, people will think less of us when in fact they think more of us.” - Daniel H. Pink
“We treat ourselves with kindness rather than contempt. We talk about it or write about it to defang it. And then we explicitly draw a lesson from it and apply that lesson going forward. And when we do that, regret is useful.” - Daniel H. Pink
Guest’s LinksDaniel H. Pink's Website
Daniel H. Pink's Facebook
Daniel H. Pink's Twitter
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Daniel H. Pink’s Book “The Power of Regret”
Kristin Neff’s Self Compassion Research
Brene Brown’s Viral Ted Talk on Shame
World Regret Survey
Connect with Jen!Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
As tons of us in the Jen Hatmaker Book Club can agree, a good book is a bit of a refuge at any time of the year, but especially in the swirl of the holidays. It's just stealing away minutes for our mind to not be thinking about planning and gifting and gatherings and shopping and cooking–not to mention expectations and the pressure to reinvent ourselves in the New Year. But getting to bury our nose in a book or even playing an audiobook has a way of transporting us to a different place entirely and giving us a break. This month we had the wonderful book Hamnet for that fleeting mental retreat we all need around this time of year. We’re getting to talk to Maggie O’Farrell, the amazing author of this atmospheric and emotional book. Maggie is an incredible novelist. She's the winner of the Women's Prize for Fiction in 2020 and her memoir, I Am, I Am which was a New York Times number one bestseller. Not only is she highly awarded with her adult fiction titles, she is also a beloved children's book writer. Even this interview was a bit of transport to another place as Maggie spoke to us in person from Edinburgh in Scotland. She and Jen discuss the book, their shared love of reading, started at an early age, and how amazing it is to find new stories to be told from the classic works of Shakespeare. If you’re not already a member of the book club, there’s so much more to discover in the conversations around amazing books we’re reading together. Jump on over to jenhatmakerbookclub.com after this episode to sign up!
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“For me the purpose was to put Hamnet center stage and to say to my readers, this boy was important. His life was short, it was hugely significant. And without this child we would not have Hamlet and we probably wouldn't have Twelfth Night.” - Maggie O’ Farrell
“The biggest drama of Shakespeare's real life happened off stage, and that's back in Stratford-upon-Avon–the death of his son. So I wanted to focus on that life rather than the one in London that we've seen many times and in many other novels, films and TV series.” - Maggie O’ Farrell
“I think we all have our own version of Shakespeare in our heads, don't we? And they're all different, and I think that's fine.I think that's partly why he's of such enduring fascination because he's still open to so many new interpretations.” - Maggie O’ Farrell
Guest’s Links
Maggie’s Website
Maggie’s Facebook
Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Hamnet Book
I Am, I Am Book
The Boy Who Lost His Spark Children’s Book
Connect with Jen!Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
It’s our first episode of the new year and we’re kicking it off with a brand new series as well. Jen’s always been fascinated by people who take risks, reinvent themselves, or chase a dream that might seem lofty or impossible. What’s the secret sauce to putting our dreams into action, and “what if” we actually get to that thing we always wanted to do in life?
To start our series off in a powerful way, we’ve got a guest who has lived out her “what If” moment in the face of fear, trepidation and potentially walking away from a more “sure” thing. Podcast, author, and digital marketer Jenna Kutcher excelled at her first corporate job, where after just a few years, she was looking at a big promotion and more money. Jenna couldn’t shake the feeling that this move for more money and responsibility would be a tough trade off for long hours and time away from the things and people she cared about. Jenna shares the surprising decision she made, what it cost her and how it planned out—while posing questions that maybe we’ve all considered at one time or another: What happens when money doesn’t necessarily bring you the quality of life you’re longing for? What happens when the dreams you have just won’t take a backseat to the practical plan you had for your life? Jen and Jenna give their takes on what it’s like to realize the career or life situation you’ve chosen (or maybe that chose you) isn’t quite the fit you you thought it would be, and they give us permission to chase the thing that brings out the best of who we really are.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“We are so quick to abandon what got us somewhere. Instead, we could leverage that thing to get us to the next place.” - Jenna Kutcher
“If you do not have safety and security, creativity is really hard to muster up. Because a lot of people just abandon things and then they're like, "Oh my gosh, I have to take any money that will come in," and they find themselves doing things they don't love.” - Jenna Kutcher
“I think that with hustle culture, it's beautiful because, yeah, you got to hustle to get things off the ground, but where is your enough point? Where do you start to say, ‘And now I can rest, or, well done, or now I protect my time?’”- Jenna Kutcher
“I realized this trend in my life where when I finally give myself bandwidth and time and space to breathe and think, that is when the best things happen.” - Jenna Kutcher
“I think for so many of us, it's like the dial on the stereo is up on the world's noise and your mother-in-law's opinion and your neighbor's car and all these things. It's like we've got to turn our intuition back up and we've got to trust that voice again.” - Jenna Kutcher
“Trust the unfolding of your life and trust yourself through the process of the unfolding. Because I think that a lot of times when we're in those seasons, you feel like it's never going to end.” - Jenna Kutcher
"Time is our currency. When we treat it that way and when we recognize that this is the one thing we can't go out and earn more of, we can't get back. The way that we spend our days is how we spend our life. Make sure that your day is reflecting where you want your life to go." - Jenna Kutcher
Guest’s LinksJenna Kutcher Website
Jenna Kutcher Instagram
Jenna Kutcher Facebook
Jenna Kutcher Twitter
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Me Course
Connect with Jen!Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
It’s our anticipated annual solo episode where we get to spend time with Jen reflecting on the year and the changes that have occurred in her life and our collective lives. And whew, have Things™ happened! We are still in the cyclone of massive change that launched out of 2020. Jen recently entered an empty nest phase this year and began a new relationship (an LDR relationship to boot) for the first time in years. She opens up about her relationship with Tyler in a completely new way and offers some hope for those navigating the waters of being single or testing out tough relationships. Whatever comes in the new year, Jen is committed to trying new things and believing that things do get better. It might be messy and wildly nonlinear but there is hope and there is progress and there is a future worth fighting for. I mean, Jen is still shocked she wrote a bestselling cookbook at age 47. If you had asked her in her twenties if that was her future, she would have laughed in your face. Whether you want to overhaul your own life or dip your toe into a new venture, Jen’s with you and cheering you on. We end this episode with Jen sharing what’s on her mind for the new year and what’s to come on the podcast and beyond. We hope you go into your new year feeling like you have a community that gets you, supports you, and that you have permission to try new things. Happy new year, pod community!
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“Some years just come and go without a lot of seismic changes, or big life moments. Some years are huge. This has been a huge year for me, as was last year, and the year before.” - Jen Hatmaker
"That's the nice thing about [starting a relationship] when you're older--you're mature, you've lived a lot of life and you're hopefully more generous, more wise and more grounded." - Jen Hatmaker
“I've grown a lot, a lot, a lot through understanding things through Tyler's lens, and staying curious toward him, and fighting all my instincts, which are trauma related, to be scared, and reactive, and triggered.” - Jen Hatmaker
“It is 100% okay, more than okay, to choose not to get married or even to partner up. That choice is viable. That is a real choice. It has merit for a trillion reasons.” - Jen Hatmaker
“The faith of my childhood did not teach me that God had any interest in our pleasure…in fact the opposite was more true. The harder something was probably the godlier it was. Or the more I denied myself something that felt beautiful or wonderful, that probably meant I was being obedient…God made this world to just be so enjoyed and to heal us and to nurture us. And that feels so crystal clear, true to me now that I'm shocked that it wasn't always.” - Jen Hatmaker
“Having a chance to be alone, whether you chose it or didn't, it doesn't matter, is a chance to look really deeply inside. Who am I? What do I want? What makes me happy? What makes me tick? Where are my own personal pain points? Let's not imagine we got this far in our life perfectly and everybody around us was just problematic.” - Jen Hatmaker
"If you find yourself solo right now, take this time. Go deeply inside. Know who you are, be your own best friend, emerge as your best self--whether or not that best self ever partners up or marries, it doesn't matter because that's how you want to be in the world.” - Jen Hatmaker
"I've been parenting since I was 23. I've done all that heavy lifting and I loved it. I wouldn't change one day of it--but it also feels great to be mostly done. Look at my young adult kids--I think they're fantastic. I'm getting to watch them start to fly." - Jen Hatmaker
“Whatever the thing is that you're kicking around in your head, maybe, you can see it from where you're standing even though it's different. It's like an offshoot. Or it could be a complete yard sale. You do an overhaul. You start something so wildly new, so unprecedented in your life, either way, why not you? It's not too late.” - Jen Hatmaker
“There is no template for suffering and healing. There's no timeline. It is not linear. My experience has been that it's two steps forward and 5 steps back all the time. It wasn't like I was sad, then I got progressively happier--that's not how grief works.” - Jen Hatmaker
“Life is going to go on. I don't exactly know how. I don't exactly know what it's going to look like. I don't have any of that figured out, but I know that I'm going to be okay. I know that my heart is going to be okay. It's going to be mended. I know that whatever happens, I will be enough for me, forever.” - Jen Hatmaker
“I was just reminded that hope is not foolish. It's not foolish, it is brave. It's audacious maybe, but it's not foolish. This is our moment in time. This is our little spot on the historical timeline to fight for what matters in the same way that every generation has done before us.” - Jen Hatmaker
“We have choice. We have agency. What are we going to do with it?” - Jen Hatmaker
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Me Course
Connect with Jen!Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
It’s the benediction episode in our “Ending the Year with a Bang” series and what a well of wisdom we have for you. The Dalia Lama of the Christian faith who resides in and walks the trails of beautiful rural Georgia–a For the Love favorite—Barbara Brown Taylor, shares her priceless insights with us. She and Jen talk blueberry pies, retired racehorses who get a second chance at life in her backyard, and making room for friendships when the world wants us, above all else, to be productive. She shares a “Farewell to 2022” prayer that she composed specifically for this podcast community (which might have elicited a tear or two) and how considering new rhythms in our day to day might bring us new life in 2023. Barbara wants to remind us that God created this world to be enjoyed and to heal and nurture us. As we contemplate how we are looking to live in this coming year, BBT has this to say to us all: “be patient with the changing seasons and not insisting that spring be like fall or that winter be like summer; trust the change in them. There's a rhythm that is settling into a pattern and then there's a point at which the rhythm means breaking the pattern to insert a slower rhythm, a more attentive rhythm. It is a great walk of trust.”
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“It's been an odd liminal transition space between two heavy pandemic years and then seeing what comes next with really no assurance about what comes next. Which I think for people of faith, it is a great walk, a great kind of trust walk. So my 2022 has been a lot about deciding how much normal I want to go back to and what kind of a tempo I want to live because at this point everything's picking up again and I have found myself rushing and busy and distracted and I remember that too well and there are not enough years left to live like that. So 2022 has been for me a hinge year. It's been a year for coming to terms with age, both the fear of what that means and the invitation that it brings perhaps especially for a woman, I'm not sure about that. But the fear is about the stereotypes.” - Barbara Brown Taylor
“I prayed much differently in my twenties than I did in my thirties or forties or now. So to be patient with the changing seasons and not insisting that spring be like fall or that winter, be like summer, but to be patient with the rhythms and to trust. To trust the change in them.” - Barbara Brown Taylor
“Part of realizing God is with us is giving up illusions. That means that God is very chatty and always available. I mean I'm an introvert so I recognize one when I see one. And sometimes God with us means God's silent and withdrawn and that does not mean God's gone.” - Barbara Brown Taylor
“My understanding of my Christian faith is it's the religion of the neighbor and it's the religion whose prime teacher said, "If you've got to choose between your religion and your neighbor, choose your neighbor…Because I never told you to love your religion.” - Barbara Brown Taylor
“The faith of my childhood did not teach me that God had any interest in our pleasure…in fact the opposite was more true. The harder something was probably the godlier it was. Or the more I denied myself something that felt beautiful or wonderful, that probably meant I was being obedient…God made this world to just be so enjoyed and to heal us and to nurture us. And that feels so crystal clear, true to me now that I'm shocked that it wasn't always.” - Jen Hatmaker
“I've got to attend to the sustainability of a supple heart. And all of that means as we've been talking about kind of changing closer, further back, local, global, just finding a way to remain present to all the things you just named and more without becoming wooden or completely fatigued beyond any usefulness.” - Barbara Brown Taylor
“Hope can become a way of not being in the present, a way of refusing what is happening right now and a kind of insistence on a better thing coming. And so I'm real wary of hope unless it functions right here, right now. And so hope becomes really a wish to be more faithful to the reality I'm planted in when it's horrible and when it's lovely.” - Barbara Brown Taylor
“This is the age when all the cliches come true. Life is short and grief is the price we pay for love and all fleshes grass. And guess what? Love, intimacy, closeness, friendship. That's what counts. That's what lasts.” - Barbara Brown Taylor
Guest’s LinksBarbara Brown Taylor Website
Barbara Brown Taylor Facebook
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Rhythm of Prayer Book
Connect with Jen!Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
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*Content Warning: This episode mentions suicide*Description
It’s the second episode in our “Ending the Year with a Bang” series and we are leaning in hard as to how to stop spinning out and find a way forward or sideways or any direction really–we just don’t want to be stuck. We are getting into the nooks and crannies of how our brains work and how “micro-yeses” are powerful medicine for our psyches. If you are or ever have been in a place of feeling stuck or maybe even plastered to the floor from feeling overwhelmed, then step right in. Our guest, Britt Frank, is a trauma specialist with her own incredible story of restoration from several addictions and she has fantastic insight for navigating feeling stuck in unhealthy cycles. We can all find hope in the understanding that despite how it might appear sometimes, we are not crazy and our behaviors have reasons that are mapped all over our brains. The good news is we can shift our behaviors in some really simple and attainable ways that Britt shares with us in her no-holds barred style. In the spirit of finishing this year well, let’s all make a pact to stop labeling ourselves as crazy and start believing that our “stuff” makes sense and doesn’t have to hold us hostage.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“My behaviors weren't good, but there's no such thing as a crazy person. If you look at everyone up close, everything always makes sense in context. Even if you don't know what that means, even if you don't know what that is, and when you stop shaming yourself and you start committing to, hey, I'm not subscribing to my behaviors, I'm not saying these should stay, but I'm not going to shame myself. I'm going to go, wow, this is an interesting adaptation to an injury. And, okay, I'm not crazy. I make sense. My stuff makes sense. My burnout makes sense. My depression makes sense for me. My meth addiction made sense. And what a beautiful message to know that we're not crazy, no one is.” - Britt Frank
“If you're still breathing, there's another step to be taken, so take it. I don't know where I'm going, I don't know what I'm doing, just go. Because the second you move in any direction, even if it's the wrong direction, you're no longer inert, you're no longer stuck.” - Britt Frank
“I didn't have a pivotal moment. It was a long series of unfortunate events with some moments that kept me inspired to not die. And I kept going.” - Britt Frank
“In order to be a happy person, you need to be a whole person. But in order to be whole, we have to deal with the less than shiny things about ourselves.” - Britt Frank
“That's a mile 26 problem, trying to love and forgive yourself. But we try to do it at mile one and then go, ‘what's wrong with me that I can't forgive myself?’ That's not the stage of the process we're at. Let's start by getting rid of the lie stories and that'll make it a lot easier to get to self-love and compassion and forgiveness later.” - Britt Frank
Guest’s LinksBritt Frank Website
Britt Frank Instagram
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
The Science of Stuck Book
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Ask and you shall receive, folks. For years, Jen’s followers have begged for a cookbook and quite literally willed it into existence, and now it’s here in all its glory! For our November book club episode, Jen is joined by OG book club member Denise Gruzensky, who’s been cooking her way through Feed These People and is ready to grill Jen (no pun intended) on her early influences, including; cooking with kids interrupting you every two seconds, what to do when your loved ones can’t eat meat, and how to make your food work for you and your people. Happy Holidays and happy cooking! If you’re not already a member of the book club, there’s so much more to discover in the conversations around amazing books we’re reading together. Head to jenhatmakerbookclub.com after this episode to sign up!
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Jen's Favorite Things Gift Guide | Listen to this special podcast episode for exclusive discounts on gifts that give back this holiday season!
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I knew that I loved making delicious food and creating something great in the kitchen, but I noticed I really liked writing about it and to layer over two things that I loved. Because really I'm a writer first.” - Jen Hatmaker
“I used all these years of just writing helter skelter on social media as a template. It isn't one by the way, that is not industry standard. But that's the way that I had figured out food writing, which was just outside of the typical structure.” - Jen Hatmaker
“We're all laughing as we're cooking because intermittently there's comedy even in the recipe itself.” - Denise Gruzensky
“I think when it comes to cooking, the sum is greater than its parts. Yes, it's just an onion and it's garlic and it's a sub sandwich, but something about it, like the process of it, the possibility of it, the nourishment of it and then the appreciation of it, it's like, Well, maybe I'll learn to paint, maybe I'll write a book. So, I hope that it inspires a little bit of creativity in everybody.” - Jen Hatmaker
“I just had so much to learn and I was willing to learn anything and try anything. I feel like the Food Network, I joke about that all the time, that's really where I learned how to cook. I just watched those shows and I watched how they chopped things and I learned technique and I figured out they would teach me about flavors that went together and how to fix something that tasted flat. Just all these things that cooks know, but I did not.” - Jen Hatmaker
“I'm on the other side of this just complete seed change in my life. I've learned a lot. I have something new to say. I have something new that I've experienced and learned and I'm not quite ready to write it, but I can see its edges starting to take a little shape.” - Jen Hatmaker
Guest’s LinksDenise’s website
Denise’s Instagram
Denise’s Facebook
Denise’s Twitter
Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeMike Burbiglia
Of Mess & Moxie
Food Network
H-E-B
Southern Living
Real Simple
Food and Wine Magazine
Feed These People
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It’s the first episode in our “Ending the Year with a Bang” series, and we’re bolting headlong into everyone’s favorite topic (especially after week upon week of holiday spending)--finances! Maybe your finances don’t have you ending 2022 with a bang—it has been challenging and hard on the financial front for a lot of us–everything from post pandemic shifts to rising inflation to rising interest rates; things might seem a little gloomy on the financial horizon. But as Jen herself has learned over the last couple of years, you can turn the tide and start calling the shots on your finances, instead of staying in the dark and wondering where you stand. This applies to everyone no matter what money madness plagues you—even if you’re having to start over, or you don’t have much to work with, or you’re wildly uninformed about how to wrangle numbers. Just like a new year, we can all start at the very beginning. This week’s guest brings the realistic–and hopeful—truth about how to turn our finances around, or even just how we can manage things a little differently for maximum benefit. Chelsea Fagan is the co-founder and CEO of The Financial Diet. Having descended into her own financial pit during her first years living in New York, Chelsea decided to make a change and as she began to see some of the simple things she instigated move her toward a healthier financial picture, she wanted to empower others with the reality that basic changes in how we look at money can create great impact toward our financial futures. Chelsea helps people daily with budgeting, credit scores, investing, and does it all with a hopeful outlook that will bring even the least financially minded of us a sigh of relief. Get ready as Chelsea doles out some hard truths, some practical advice and even turns our weekly “what’s saving your life” question back on Jen—this is a conversation that ends up being, well, on the money!
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“Being good with money has basically nothing to do with your income level or your lifestyle. The ethos of being good with money very, very simply boils down to both living with and being content with living under your means, and then framing your financial decision making in terms of your long-term priorities and values as opposed to short-term gratification.” - Chelsea Fagan
“If someone in your life only likes you or feels about you a certain way if you can afford to give them something, they don't really love you for you. You can't be putting yourself in the position of having to buy people's affection or buy their validation.”- Chelsea Fagan
“I'm thinking about a variety of ways people gather around this time of year, be it actual Christmas or a gift giving moment, family or friends–work even–and those spaces are not paying close attention to making gatherings financially inclusive. If anyone coming to your event feels uncomfortable financially, you have failed as a host.” - Chelsea Fagan
“In keeping a positive mindset [with money issues], something my husband says that I really love is, "Worrying is praying for something bad to happen." You either do something about it to be proactive and prevent negative outcomes or increase the chances of positive outcomes. Or, if you've done everything you need to do and it's out of your control now, then focus on other things.” - Chelsea Fagan
“Our company has been doing a four day work week for almost 18 months and it's completely transformed my life and, I would hope, the lives of our team–especially the parents on our team. Our productivity increased, our revenue increased, our profitability increased. We're doing more with less.” Chelsea Fagan
Guest’s LinksThe Financial Diet Website
The Financial Diet Instagram
The Financial Diet Facebook
The Financial Diet Twitter
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Nerd Wallet
Glassdoor
Broke Millennial
Can’t afford a CPA? See if you qualify for help with your taxes via a free service from
United Way
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For the final episode of our Untraditional Traditions series, Jen’s good friend, American Idol alumni Melinda Doolittle, is with us to have an enlightening chat with Jen, which, as Jen readily admits, is 90% not about Christmas at all—and since we’re being untraditional this year, we’re here for it! Jen gets Melinda to spill all the behind the scenes scoop on what it was like to come through the American Idol machine, including how it felt to be the oldest contestant for her season (at the ripe old age of 28, mind you). They also set the record straight about what happened when Melinda “ignored” Tyler Merritt for a year (let’s just say it involved not knowing how social media works). Finally, since it is our holiday series, Melinda tells us about her favorite Christmas ever, which involves her yearly Christmas show in Nashville, TN, and the very special guest that happened to be in the audience that night.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I was on the same season [of American Idol] as Jordan Sparks and she was the youngest in my season, I was the oldest. We were roommates, so we were extremely close. And she knew who she was. She knew what kind of artist she wanted to be. She had auditioned for lots of competitions. She just knew who she was. And I was like, ‘Can you teach me, 16 year old? Because I don't know.’” - Melinda Doolittle
“I don't think anyone's prepped to ascend that quickly or to have that level of critique. Literally the whole country was saying what they thought of you.” - Melinda Doolittle on life during American Idol
“I truly feel like dreams came true that I didn't actually know I had. I think I hadn't allowed myself to dream about what it would look like for me to be an artist and to step on stages and have my own story to tell.” - Melinda Doolittle
“All I wanted out of life was to be the Black Barbara Streisand. I discovered that I could write some songs. I was okay with that, but I wanted to sing those classic songs that made everybody move, made people cry, made people feel something.” - Melinda Doolittle
“[At my Christmas show] we do a version of 'All I Want for Christmas,' that is my happiest place. And I swore I would never do that song because that song is the gold standard for me. It is Mariah Carey and I will never be her. So to make that song fit me, but to still be true to it, that was one of the most exciting arrangements I've ever come up with. Ever.” - Melinda Doolittle
Guest’s Links
Melinda’s website
Melinda’s Instagram
Melinda’s Facebook
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
People Loving Nashville
Melinda’s Christmas Show in Franklin, Tennessee
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We’re back with another installment of our Untraditional Traditions series and continuing to celebrate the best of the season with different perspectives on how to change things up toward augmenting old traditions, creating new ones, or letting go of those that no longer serve us. Perhaps you’re thinking–how do I even begin to shift long held traditions—especially around holiday gatherings? Or maybe you’ve never been the “gather-er,” but you want to step your toe into those waters? We’ve got some fantastic practical guidance based on real life experience from our guest this week, on how we can get more from how we gather, and how to facilitate gatherings that bring life instead of stress. Priya Parker is a facilitator, a strategic advisor, an author and a life-long curious student. Priya believes everyone has the ability to gather well and gives us tangible tools to help us reimagine how we spend our time together and infuse it with creativity and meaning. Her best-selling book The Art of Gathering Well, is such a vital work when it comes to rethinking how we plan all our get togethers. Priya got her start in this field at a really young age as a kid when she straddled the two very different worlds of her parents, where she’d leave her mother and stepfather's Indian, liberal, vegetarian, Buddhist, household and travel to her father and stepmothers’, white American, evangelical Christian, conservative, meat eating household. Priya believes that a gathering starts when you pause first to ask “why do I want to do this, what are the needs and who should be there?” She and Jen talk through some of the possible answers to these questions and how they help us make important shifts in approaching our holiday gatherings. Recognizing that rituals are powerful, they also look at when they are needed–and when they’ve outlived their usefulness or specialness, or even when the observation of them brings sadness or pain. As we all search for belonging and true connection in our holiday gatherings, Priya and Jen walk us through how we can lay the foundation for our own blended and newly-created traditions.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I was always interested in how people come together, how they make meaning, how they create and invent certain rituals that give us a sense of belonging, and in part because of who I was, without all having to be the same.” - Priya Parker
“I think that the cultivation of meaningful dialogue, of meaningful conversation is a cultural practice, and I think that there are elements that help build that muscle, and that there's elements that block the going to that cultural gym.” - Priya Parker
“We're doing a lot of missing of each other. We're missing each other spatially because of the pandemic. We're missing each other politically. We're missing each other during racial reckonings. And I think the art and craft of beginning to find each other again is to think about when and how do we actually meet, and how do we set it up in a way that people feel safe enough to engage.” - a letter received from a reader of Priya Parker’s book “The Art of Gathering.”
“What is a need in my life, or what is a need in this community that by bringing together a specific group of people we might be able to address?” - Priya Parker
“Our rituals are like the observable symbols of our forms, and when the forms are shifting, the rituals also need to shift for them to be relevant and meaningful to the people who choose to be in those systems.” - Priya Parker
“Why are we here? Why are you here? Even if you are different, you're each playing a role. How meaningful is it to me? And so often, because we're trying not to impose, in part because we think, oh, let's not be formal–we under-create meaning, and we are all hungry for meaning.” - Priya Parker
Guest’s Links
Priya’s website
Priya’s Instagram
Priya’s Facebook
Priya’s Twitter
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
The Art of Gathering - book by Priya Parker
The Way We Never Were - book by Stephanie Coontz
Americanah - book Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie
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Another year, another holiday, and another special bonus episode of our podcast featuring our 6th Annual Jen's Favorite Things Gift Guide. If you're just now realizing that we've got about a month before Christmas, Jen and team are here to help! In this episode, Jen will guide us to some of the most practical, fun and beautiful gifts this year—along with all kinds of deals, just for you, our faithful listeners. And as we've done in past years, Jen has selected products she loves from businesses who are doing good in the world—whether that's through dollars back to worthy causes, employing and empowering marginalized communities, or creating sustainable solutions that are both good for us and our planet. And here's a fun bonus (on top of a bonus episode!). We love a good story here on our show, so to celebrate 6 years of this guide, we've invited some of the folks who've benefited from the "giving back" component of our gift companies this year to share how their lives were impacted by the help and support they've received through the conscientious work of these companies AND because generous buyers like you decided they wanted to spend their holiday dollars meaningfully.
Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I love to share some of my favorite things for the holidays that I'm buying for my own friends and families, from incredible companies that give back, from brands that are women owned, from social enterprises doing so much good in the world.” - Jen Hatmaker
“I was at the end of the road. I was completely desperate. I was sitting in prison and a lady from Thistle Farms, one of the original graduates, came in and spoke to a group of women in the prison. And so I got out, I went straight to Thistle Farms. I felt the love and the support. They bought me hygiene. They bought me clothes right when I came in. They basically just put their arms around me and let me just rest and breathe.” - Rachel, 2017 graduate of the Thistle Farms Residential Community
“One of the things that we really found is that good food, good drink, and sitting around the table is actually the largest place to find healing. Because we started hearing the stories and sharing our experiences and we would linger around a table for hours and hours, starting from breakfast all the way through dinner. That was where everything happened.” - Paulette Wooten, co-founder of The Treehouse + Co.
“I love being here. I love being part of something that is bigger than me and doing more for the greater good, and sharing my story and being around the women that have been through similar situations and gone through struggle.” - Katie, ABLE jeweler
“Because of your direct support and buying our gift products and sending them to your girlfriends, and your moms, and your teacher or friends, we have been able to grow. We have been able to give back to our women. We have been able to keep our team employed through a really challenging few years in the retail and shopping space.” - Micah Shreeve, founder of Aspen Lane
“Here at Hon's Honey, we have 15 women employed here. They're all part of an active program called COR Life, Community, Opportunity, Responsibility, where they're learning soft and hard skills. This is what they would say, ‘I'm learning to love myself and to love others again in my life.’” - Sarah Batley, senior director at Hon’s Honey
Gift Guide Holiday Deals
Thistle Farms | Use code ForTheLove to save 15% off the entire website excluding sale items
Wagon Coffee | Use code ForTheLove to save 10% off the entire online shop, including the Caffeinate These People coffee pack and For the Love coffee blend
The Treehouse & Co | Use code ForTheLove to save 15% off the entire website, including the Jen Hatmaker holiday spice box
ABLE | Use code ForTheLove to save 40% on purchases made in November, and 25% on purchases made in December
Aspen Lane | Shop Jen’s favorites and get 25% off using code ForTheLove
Hon’s Honey | Save 15% on the entire online store with code ForTheLove
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We’re in the midpoint of our Untraditional Traditions series, and we want to ask all of you listeners to consider something; what kind of Christmas do you want or need this year? Maybe it’s a riotous, celebratory Christmas with tons of gatherings and activities, a frenzy of lights and shopping and cooking and more. But perhaps some of us might be feeling a bit tethered to the way we’ve always done it—and the notion of a calm Christmas sounds nothing short of divine (and kudos to you all who have found the joy of this already). Perhaps you feel like you don’t really have a choice as to what kind of Christmas you have, as you’ve been the “keeper of Christmas” for your family and friends for so long, but our guest this week is here to tell us otherwise. Beth Kempton is a writer, a mother and has been obsessed with Christmas since she was a little girl. After one particularly stressful Christmas when her children were small (and she and her husband decided that neither of them really liked turkey) Beth began to realize that Christmas could be what she wanted it to be (sans turkey, for one!), and she started spreading that message—namely through her book “Calm Christmas and a Happy New Year.” She and Jen talk through the 5 “stories” of Christmas and which one they identify with most, they discuss when Christmas is hard and how to help yourself and others when that’s the case, and the comfort and joy of letting yourself be free of anyone else’s Christmas expectations and choosing the kind of season that is nurturing instead of draining.
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StoryWorth | Give the gift of preserved memories at storyworth.com/forthelove to save $10 on your first purchase!
For the Love’s 2022 Gift Guide | Save on gifts that give back this holiday season!
Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I think the reason it's so important to think carefully about Christmas is because it's not just Christmas Day, it's the whole of winter. It's the season that sets us up for the year that follows. The impact on our mental health can be enormous.” - Beth Kempton
“Isn't it interesting that you turn to the symbols of Christmas–the tree, the lights, whatever–as comfort in a really difficult time? And I know it's up to everyone when they put the tree up, but I'm totally the same. If that brings you joy, why not extend it as much as you can?” - Beth Kempton
“When we find the quiet, it's so much easier to connect with the wisdom that we already hold and often don't even realize. I think somehow our heart is way ahead of our mind in terms of what we know, what we need to know.” - Beth Kempton
“One of the things that I was really shocked by was how many people that I spoke to–I would say more than 80%--had a very sad story connected with Christmas in some way.” - Beth Kempton
Guest’s Links
Beth’s Website
Beth’s Instagram
Beth’s Facebook
Beth Kempton’s podcast
The Way of the Fearless Writer: Ancient Eastern wisdom for a flourishing writing life
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Book: Calm Christmas and a Happy New Year by Beth Kempton
Book: The Way of the Fearless Writer by Beth Kempton
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Let’s get into the nitty gritty of our holiday traditions—real tree or a fake tree? Love egg nog or hate it? Decorating to the hilt or like to keep it minimalist? In this kickoff episode of our Untraditional Traditions series, we’re doing a deep dive into some of the traditions many of us may observe at the holidays, and a few we might want to try! Like, how many of you put up your Christmas tree at Halloween and take it down on Valentine’s Day? Well, our guest this week does and he just gave us all permission to do that same (you’re welcome). Because that’s the fun thing about traditions—we can take the ones that mean the most to us and build off them to create something that really reflects who we are. And if our old traditions leave us feeling flat, there are always new things to explore. Brian Earl, the host of the “Christmas Past” podcast is the perfect guide as we begin this series. Brian dedicates hours of research to uncovering the roots behind many of our beloved (and maybe to some, annoying) holiday traditions. Ever wonder why we put up a Christmas tree in the first place? He lays it out for us, along with many other interesting facts around traditions. Also, he and Jen reminisce about being kids in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s and the nostalgia around gifts we received and the Christmas commercials that used to barrage us on TV. (Rubik’s Cube, anyone? How about Teddy Ruxpin)? As they wind through the nostalgia of traditions past, Jen and Brian also talk about creating new traditions, and how valuable those are and will become to us and our people. Brian’s years of research have resulted in a book about all the fascinating, sometimes really surprising stories behind our holiday traditions, why we should care about them, and what they mean. Get into the spirit of the holidays as we wax nostalgic and dream of new ways to celebrate the season.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I grew up in the '70s and '80s. Those are two decades that I feel like produced maybe twice their fair share of popular culture. And all of that worked its way into Christmas.” - Brian Earl
“Christmas for your great-great-grandparents was very different from what we celebrate. They would take a look at our celebration and sort of recognize it as Christmas, but not really.” - Brian Earl
“During the Christmas season, anything in my community that's going on, any Christmas thing, we're always running around to it, and [my wife] gets a little tired, because she loves Christmas too, but very few people love it as much as I do.” - Brian Earl
“Every year we write the next chapter in the story of Christmas. And I mean that on a small scale–you write the next chapter in your family's Christmas. But then collectively, with changing our behaviors, and just what kinds of things we want as a culture for Christmas, we write the next chapter collectively as the larger Christmas-celebrating community.” - Brian Earl
Guest’s Links
Brian’s Website
Brian’s Instagram
Brian’s Facebook
The Christmas Past Podcast
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
For the Love Podcast episode with “Deck the Hallmark”
Christmas Past: The Fascinating Stories Behind Our Favorite Holiday's Traditions by Brian Earl
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We’re celebrating fall in the Jen Hatmaker Book Club (and for those of you who live in the deep south like Jen, our sympathies for the fall leaves you won’t see). Whether it’s actual fall or the idea of fall that gives you that cozy-up-with-a-blanket-in-your-favorite-chair-with-a-good-book feeling, we’re here for it. And we’ve got just the book for your fall reading–our book of the month is none other than Who Is Maud Dixon? by Alexandra Andrews. Alexandra is a journalist, an editor, and copywriter who works from New York and Paris, and this is her very first book! We think she hit it out of the park–and a lot of people feel the same. Who Is Maud Dixon? was named best mystery novel of the year by the New York Times, best book of the year by Time Magazine and has gotten kudos from NPR, Publishers Weekly–and host of other publications.. Can we take a minute to imagine your very first book being met with that level of success? It's so exciting what she's accomplished, and you’ll love hearing how she crafted such a page turner–it will surprise you and there's more than one twist, which is the best kind of thriller. If you’re not already a member of the book club, there’s so much more to discover in the conversations around amazing books we’re reading together. Jump on over to jenhatmakerbookclub.com after this episode to sign up!
Thought-Provoking Quotes:“I'm always inspired the same way, which is reading another book and thinking, oh, I wish I could do that. And for a long time it was mostly nonfiction books and I really wanted to be Joan Didion.” - Alexandra Andrews
“There are a lot of women, or people in general, not just women, who’ve had a tough upbringing, they've been up against a lot of obstacles, and how much leeway do they deserve, and how much can we really blame them for not having the tools to go after success in ordinary ways?” - Alexandra Andrews
“I'd been writing for so long and without any success, and even when I just finished the first draft, I was so happy I finished the first draft. And then when I got an agent, I was just thrilled I had an agent. And then when it sold, every step has felt like icing on the cake.” - Alexandra Andrews
Alexandra’s Links
Alexandra’s website
Alexandra’s Instagram
Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeJoan Didon
The Talented Mr. Ripley
Elena Ferrante
Patricia Highsmith
As we wrap up our food series and celebrate of the release of Jen’s very first cookbook, we have another first right here in this Feeding These People Food series: Jen’s mom, her brother, and one of her sisters give us all the dish on the history of food in the King family in their very first appearance together on For the Love, for the last episode of this series! Jana, Drew, Cortney, and Jen weigh in on the good, bad and ugly of their family meals growing up, their favorite around the table memories, and the foods that, well, just failed. From Hamburger Helper, to Veg-all, to Drew’s penchant for boiling cokes he would pinch from the garage in the Louisiana heat, it’s a wonder any of us that grew up in the 80’s survived. You’ll be riveted by their spirited discussion about ranch dressing, the time when Jen’s dad decided to eat healthier and Jana started cooking everything with oat bran, and the highly debated pot pie incident–plus a few other family controversies over what really happened in the King kitchen. Stick around to the end when we hear each siblings’ recollection of their favorite meals and their assessment of how they are doing these days feeding their own families.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I don't know how Larry survived on the food that I was able to bring out of that teeny, teeny, tiny kitchen, which wasn't much. And then I didn't know what I was doing anyway. But having all of you precious children–it was just a matter of getting something on the table that you all would eat.” - Jen’s mom, Jana
“The dish I remember mom making all the time every Sunday after church was pot roast. There'd be a pot roast in the oven as soon as we walked in. The house smelled great. And today, every time I smell a really good pot roast, I feel like I need to sing a quick hymn and then eat dinner.” - Cortney, Jen’s sister
“What I got every year for my birthday, because again, much like you all, I'm not a big sweet guy–I would prefer a handful of peanuts or something salty and savory. But what I did love is mom would make me a loaf of banana nut bread, and a loaf of pumpkin bread every year for my birthday.” - Jen’s brother, Drew
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Ree Drummond’s Pot Pie Recipe
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
It’s another episode of our cozy fall series; For the Love of Feeding These People. How could we talk about food without talking about one of the things that pairs with it best. Yes, we’re talking wine on this week’s show, and we’ve got a knowledgeable, smart and decidedly different wine expert joining Jen to talk through food’s most delightful partner. Noel Burgess is a wine writer and influencer who lives in wine country in Northern California. For those of you that love wine, and even better, for those of you who have been looking to add wine to your table, Noel’s approach to wine is refreshing to us all. What’s great about Noel is that he’s on a journey of wine discovery himself—having only started drinking wine less than 5 years ago. He makes wine approachable to all of us and wants us to learn along with him. As Noel likes to say “wines are as diverse as people, spectacular in their perfect imperfections, shaped by their distinct environments, and always evolving.” Sounds like our kind of wine guy. Stick around to the end, where we’ve picked a dish from Jen’s cookbook, Feeding These People, and Noel tells us exactly the right wine to pair with it—just in time for fall entertaining.
Thank you to our sponsors!
Rothy’s | $20 off your first purchase by visiting Rothys.com/forthelove
BetterHelp | Visit BetterHelp.com/forthelove and get 10% off your first month
All the Dish Tour | Jen is going on tour! Find your city and get your tickets at jenhatmaker.com.
Thought-Provoking Quotes
“Everyone's palate is different. So to me, the overall thing of it is, it's good to you, then it's a quality wine, whether it costs fifty bucks or five bucks.” - Noel Burgess
“The wine got my attention, no doubt, but the diversity piece is what really fuels my passion and sustains me in this industry.” - Noel Burgess
“What are they doing when it comes to sustainability? What are they doing when it comes to giving back to the earth or to individuals, charities? Those are things I care about because there's so many different wine brands out there. If you're not exercising these things, why am I drinking your wine?” - Noel Burgess
“I do enjoy working in the industry, but it's really about the people. And that's why I focus on those things in my story, versus talking about the technicality of wine. That's important.” - Noel Burgess
“Even though your palate might expand, this is the best way to put it, it might expand, I don't leave behind the brands that I tried in the beginning that I actually do enjoy the taste.” - Noel Burgess
“That outlet to do the things that I love, which is interacting with people and telling real stories, and helping highlight and give a voice to those that don't have as big a voice, is why I'm in HR, is why I'm in the wine, food, travel, hospitality, influencing, print media game, whatever you want to call it. That is the thing, that is the mechanism that I have used to improve the quality of my life.” - Noel Burgess
Guest’s LinksNoel’s Instagram
Noel on Muckrack.com
Noel’s website (coming soon)
Mentioned in This EpisodeTheopholis Vineyards
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
Things are getting even more delicious as we continue with the “Feeding These People” series here on the For The Love Podcast, as we celebrate the launch of Jen’s dream project - her very first cookbook! And like we need an excuse to talk about food (we don’t) so pardon us as we revel in all the foodie-loving goodness our guest this week brings us through her oh-so-delectable, highly followed Instagram channel. We’ve got Half Baked Harvest’s Tieghan Gerard with us this week and we couldn’t be more excited (and a little hungry). Tieghan, much like Jen, got her start in the world of blogging way back in 2012 and was just a natural to move her food thoughts and creations over to Instagram (to the tune of 4.7M followers), and subsequently began appearing on outlets like the Cooking Channel, Food Network, HGTV and more. Tieghan confesses to us, as much as she loves cooking (which came from experimentation as a kid, and watching a lot of Rachael Ray) she loves styling the things she cooks even more. And if you get a look at Half Baked Harvest on the socials, you’ll understand why. From her point of view on food, to her flavor profiles, to how she showcases her beautiful creations, you’ll see her talent–but rejoice in the fact that even though her recipes look elevated, they are made for people who might not have a chef’s touch in the kitchen. We were stunned to find out that she wrote AND styled her last three cookbooks (after last week’s episode, where we had Jen’s entire cookbook team describing their work, we marvel at how she does it all). We also love the moments when Tieghan discovers Jen is southern and their hand-clapping delight that they both adore spicy foods (more jalapenos, please) and their aside about how wonderful it is to get to do what you love for a living. Stick around for the end as Tieghan shares her favorite (and easy) go-to recipe that everyone needs for their fall menus.
Thank you to our sponsors!
Storyworth | Save $10.00 on your first purchase at Storyworth.com/ForTheLove
Feed These People | Pre-order Jen’s new cookbook and get free extra recipes, cooking videos, and more at jenhatmaker.com/feedthesepeople. Book is on shelves Oct 18, 2022.
All the Dish Tour | Jen is going on tour! Find your city and get your tickets at jenhatmaker.com.
Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I love to make things look pretty. In my eye, in my head when something clicks, I'm so excited. It clicks, I'm like, "Yeah, this is it. I love it." So that's how I build recipes is I really build them in my head first and I build them based off color, and textures.” - Tieghan Gerard
“I'm so grateful for the gradual growth I've had. I didn't have that one thing that put me on the map. I didn't go on the Today show, there wasn't some giant celebrity shout-out, it was just gradual, steady, consistent growth.” - Tieghan Gerard
“Creating content and interacting with my community, and all of those things are the things that really build my business at the end of the day.” - Tieghan Gerard
Tieghan’s Links
Tiehgan’s website
Tieghan’s Instagram
Tieghan’s Facebook
Tieghan’s Twitter
Tieghan’s TikTok
Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Book: Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
Coming in hot with a sneak peek of the premium podcast content! We’re tackling some tough social issues with these exclusive bonus episodes in the hope of having conversations that will be enlightening and sobering, but also encouraging. Our mission in these conversations is to advance respectful dialogue around hard issues, while looking toward how we can all build a world that we want to hand down to the next generations. And so continuing in this vein, we wanted to get a politicians' 1000 foot view of these issues, how to sort them out, what feels hopeful and what is our role to play. Former US Representative Beto O'Rourke is here with us to talk about all of these things, but in particular, voter’s rights. Whether you’re affiliated with a party at all, I think we can all agree that voting is the right of the American citizen. He walks us through a history of voting, what some of the hurdles have been for all to be able to vote in the past and the present, and how we can better this situation with our voices and our votes.
Thank you to our sponsors!
Feed These People | Pre-order Jen’s new cookbook and get free extra recipes, cooking videos, and more at jenhatmaker.com/feedthesepeople. Book is on shelves Oct 18, 2022.
All the Dish Tour | Jen is going on tour! Find your city and get your tickets at jenhatmaker.com.
Thought-Provoking Quotes
“It's just so important [to acknowledge] just how extraordinarily exceptional our form of government is. In the whole of human history, very, very few people on the planet have ever pulled off anything close to a democracy. And even today, though there are more democratic countries than have ever existed before in the history of the world, it's not easy. And most of the planet does not live under free and fair elections.” Beto O’ Rourke
“In 1965, the first Texas president, Lyndon Baines Johnson, signed into law the Voting Rights Act, which really for the first time since Reconstruction, allows everyone to participate in the franchise, regardless of race or ethnicity or country of national origin. It's really a beautiful moment. It was an important achievement and milestone, but none of these victories are final. You’ve always got to keep fighting because the forces that are fighting against democracy, they never rest. “ - Beto O’ Rourke
“The more power you get, the more power hungry you are. And I don't think any human or any party is immune to that. The beauty of our country is you have all these checks and balances and these laws that are supposed to protect democracy. And we really have an opportunity that few generations get to fight for and restore this democracy. So voting is super important, of course.” - Beto O’ Rourke
“We all need to know that we have a role to play. There's something that we can do. We're not merely witnesses or bystanders or on the sidelines. We're in this. And getting registered to vote, that puts you in this.” - Beto O’ Rourke
Guest’s LinksBeto’s website
Beto’s Instagram
Beto’s Facebook
Beto’s Twitter
Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeBeto’s book
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
It’s time to get into a topic for a brand new series that is near and dear to our hearts—food. We love to eat it, we love to take pictures of it, we love to cook it (well, some of us do). This brand new series, For the Love of Feeding These People, coincides with the release of Jen’s brand new cookbook; “Feed These People,” but lest you think this is one long discussion about Jen’s book, think again. We’re bringing in other food creators whose Instagrams we follow religiously for their culinary creations, we’re bringing in a wine guy (not a snooty one, but one that gives us affordable options and doesn’t shame us if we wonder out loud what wine pairs with corn dogs), and Jen’s own family (sisters, brother and mom) to talk about their family food moments and give up the secrets of their most loved and hated family meals. But for this episode, we’re going deep behind the scenes and uncovering the mystery of how the pictures of food we see in advertisements, websites, instagram feeds, books and more look so darn good. There are people who specialize in photographing food to make it look as sumptuous as possible, and other folks who “style” the food so it appears in the most beautiful atmospheres, and the chefs who cook up every recipe to its ultimate best so the photog and stylist can enhance the magic around it. If you’ve ever been curious as to how that all happens, we have the actual team who put together Jen’s cookbook, and they’re here to dish about all the hours, details, and antics that go into this kind of work, and how they got to the mouth-watering final results. Mackenzie, Maite and Taylor are the dream team behind so many beautiful food shoots and you’ll love the triumphs and the fails they share (including a story about Jen’s Satay with Peanut Dipping Sauce recipe that somehow resembled something REALLY unappetizing) and other hilarious challenges and triumphs that happened while creating Jen’s beautiful new cookbook.
Thank you to our sponsors!
Better Help | Visit Betterhelp.com/ForTheLove to get 10% off your first month of therapy.
Chime | Sign up for your Chime Credit Builder Visa Credit Card today Chime.com/ForTheLove
Feed These People | Pre-order Jen’s new cookbook and get free extra recipes, cooking videos, and more at jenhatmaker.com/feedthesepeople. Book is on shelves Oct 18, 2022.
Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I think my goal with photography, food or not, but especially with food, is to connect, is to make people feel connected. And I love doing that by making things relatable instead of aspirational.” - Mackenzie, food photographer
“Food styling is such a different task because you have to think of all the potential issues that could happen, not only with the actual making of the food, but when you're actually putting it in front of the camera, and the transition that just naturally happens in food.” - Maite, chef and food designer
“I was in Fiesta, if you're not in Texas, that's like this amazing Mexican grocery store, in the canned aisle, and called Mackenzie. And I was like, ‘This might sound crazy, but what if we built a wall of canned food?’ And to her credit, she was like, ‘If you have a vision, let's give it a shot.’ And I think that's a really fun shot. And it was exciting.” - Taylor, food stylist and designer
Guests’ LinksMaite’s Website
Maite’s Instagram
Taylor’s Website
Taylor’s Instagram
Mackenzie’s Website
Makenzie’s Instagram
Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Feed These People: Slam Dunk Recipes for Your Crew by Jen Hatmaker
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
This month, in the Jen Hatmaker Book Club, we’re celebrating the change of seasons. After enduring the sweltering heat this summer, nothing sounds more cozy than curling up with a good book, wearing your favorite oversized sweater and hunkering down in your favorite reading nook to welcome the falling leaves and falling temps (if you’re in the south, and still sweltering, like us, just bump that AC down a few clicks and go with us here). And if you’re not a member of the club, you’re not going to want to miss out on the conversations with authors around amazing books we’re reading together. Jump on over to jenhatmakerbookclub.com to sign up! Now, on to this month’s author–if you’re anything like Jen, a book filled with family drama, unique characters, and a really compelling storyline is the perfect fall read. And this author does not disappoint. We’re talking with novelist Gabriela Garcia about her book Of Women and Salt. Gabriela is the daughter of immigrants from Cuba and Mexico, raised in Miami, and currently living in the Bay Area. Her fiction and poetry have both appeared in Best American Poetry and have received rewards, including the Rona Jaffe Foundation Writer's Award and a Steinbeck Fellowship. With Of Women and Salt, Gabriela weaves an intergenerational story that takes us from From Cuba to Miami, featuring three generations of Cuban women, exploring themes of trauma, motherhood, addiction, love, and, immigration. We see the growing possibility of a better life passed down from each generation as well as the all too human aspects of regret and anger each generation feels for what they gave up for the next one.
Join the Jen Hatmaker Book Club today! jenhatmakerbookclub.com
Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I was really interested in how we're all sort of born into a story that's already been happening without us. Whether we are aware of it or not, whether we have access to it fully or not.“ - Gabriela Garcia
“Who gets to be a mother? How do we define motherhood? What makes a good mother? And how much of that is also just based circumstantially on what resources are available? There was so much there in all of those relationships that I was interested in exploring.” - Gabriela Garcia
“I think with women, and especially immigrant women, often strength and sacrifice are so fetishized. I wanted to sort of explore what it means to survive within these patriarchal structures, within these violent worlds…and you don't always survive. You don't always come out triumphant.” - Gabriela Garcia
“I think there's so much room for men to be messy, or complicated, and so much pressure on women to just offer stories of resilience and strength. So I think it means a lot [to me] just to be able to write about these complicated, complex, sometimes very messy women, and to have so many people connect to it.” - Gabriela Garcia
Gabriela’s LinksGabriela’s Website
Gabriela’s Instagram
Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeOf Women and Salt by Gabriela Garcia
Les Miserables by Victor Hugo
If Survive You by Jonathan Escoffery
When The Mountains Sing, I Dance by Irena Sola
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
It’s time to bring a close to our Dating, Sex, & Relationships series. And what better way to wrap it all than hearing a candid conversation from Jen and her person–Tyler Merritt. If you’ve listened to this series, you might have noticed that Jen has mentioned Tyler–a long time activist and author—a time or two, and that part of the reason for this series was to explore some new territory that Jen has only been exposed to over the last year or so as she tentatively put her toe in the dating waters after the end of her 26 year marriage in 2020. As we’ve stepped through all the new ways we can meet people, or explored the choice to be single, or looked at how to start over after divorce or loss, we’ve heard the threads of Jen and Tyler’s story in all of this mix. And now, they’re here to give us some insight as to “how it’s going,” with all the joys and challenges every new relationship faces, plus some never before heard conversations about how they came together from completely different places in life including; long time married with kids vs. long time single with no kids, navigating the nuances of being a bi-racial couple and coming from completely different cultural circumstances, balancing their careers while nurturing a budding relationship and the bittersweet reality of dating long-distance. This episode is packed with some “in the moment” musings from both Jen and Tyler and also includes some hilarious takes on how a relationship that started as a new friendship turned into long daily text sessions moving to hours long phone conversations, their “define the relationship” talk, and culminating with a fun bonus segment–the For the Love team’s version of “The Newlywed Game,”--where we see how well Jen and Tyler really know each other (you’ll want to see this on video as well over on Jen’s YouTube).
Thank you to our sponsors!
Third Love | Take the fitting room quiz, and get 20% off your first order at thirdlove.com/forthelove.
Feed These People | Pre-order Jen’s new cookbook and get free extra recipes, cooking videos, and more at jenhatmaker.com/feedthesepeople. Book is on shelves Oct 18, 2022.
All the Dish Tour | Jen is going on tour! Find your city and get your tickets at jenhatmaker.com.
Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I just remember thinking, ‘This is weird. This is special. There's something special happening here.’ [Maybe] I just met a lifelong friend and we're going to have to meet up in New York and go see shows–I don't know what's happening.’” - Jen Hatmaker
“I remember telling you I have to have conversations with the people that are close to me in my life because I'm just known as being single, and me not being single affects my single people and it's a lot.” - Tyler Merritt
“We got to know each other by talking for 40 million hours. That's what we had. That's all we had. We didn't have each other in person. And so we spent so much time talking. And I don't know, to me, that ended up being a really good foundation to build on before we ever even saw each other again in person.” - Jen Hatmaker
“What's been great about being in a relationship with somebody who has such a different set of circumstances from me; and it's not just single and married, it's black and it's white and it's only child, it's oldest of four, it is vegetarian, it is hamburgers, and it's no kids, it's five kids. We've got a lot, we have a lot of really interesting differences. And I think I can say honestly that most of them have been really good for me to navigate and to learn.” - Jen Hatmaker
“Sometimes in a long distance relationship, when it can feel like maybe we're more distant than we are, we just have to learn how to trust the process. And I think that can be difficult sometimes.” - Tyler Merritt
“[I want] to kind of encourage anybody that's in a racial relationship that it doesn't matter how progressive you are, it doesn't matter how far you are into the movement, you're going to run into things that are just different and you've just got to make your way through it.” - Tyler Merritt
“I'm always proud to be with you and I'm always glad to be with you. And I love being by your side. I'm happier when you’re by mine. And that's it. That's the leading feeling.” - Jen Hatmaker
Guest’s Links
Tyler’s website
Tyler’s Instagram
Tyler’s Facebook
Tyler’s Twitter
Tyler’s YouTube
Tyler’s new kid’s book
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
Producers note: Mature subject matter around sex is discussed in this episode.
As we’ve been learning in our Dating, Sex and Relationship series, there is no one right way to go about finding satisfaction in these areas of life. And the same is true for sex. You deserve to find joy and pleasure in your body and your sexuality just as you are, no matter what. There are so many things that culture has told us about our bodies and our sexuality that aren’t true. We’re going to walk through some of those misnomers and some healthy ways to approach sex with our very wise guest, sex educator and return visitor to our show, Emily Nagoski. Emily describes her mission as helping women live with joy and confidence inside their bodies. She wants us to know that our bodies have wisdom to share, and that our bodies can be trusted–their intuition is actually good for us and our protection. She explains what a sex drive is (actually, what it isn’t, because it’s not actually a thing–surprise!). Emily also shares key findings from couples who sustain strong sexual connection over the long term (and those two things aren’t what people most generally think they are). In this frank conversation about sex, Emily encourages us to lean into our sexual pleasure and shake off any hesitations that are usually due to cultural shame or baggage. And if you think that exploring your sexuality isn’t possible with a busy career, kids, and other responsibilities, Emily removes the myth that scheduling sex makes it less hot. When we normalize all sorts of sexual responses, we remove barriers that keep us from making space for all this pleasure that has always been ours to claim.
Thank you to our sponsors!
Rothy’s | $20 off your first purchase by visiting Rothys.com/forthelove
Kiwico | 50% off your first month of a Kiwico subscription and free shipping for any crate line with the code FORTHELOVE at Kiwico.com
BetterHelp | Visit BetterHelp.com/forthelove and get 10% off your first month
Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I think having curiosity about our own bodies and continually learning in a non-judgmental way is really important. Trusting the message your body is sending you more than anyone else's expressed opinion about what should be happening with your body. We can believe our bodies over and above anybody else's opinion about bodies.” - Emily Nagoski
“We actually heal ourselves when we allow uncomfortable feelings to melt through our bodies. On the other side of it, that process has healed our bodies and freed us from the lies that we were told when we were small.” - Emily Nagoski
“What is it that I want when I want sex? And what is it that I like when I like sex? And talk about those answers with your partner. And it'll help you to remember why. If there is a ‘why’ for sex in your relationship, this will help you remind you why.” - Emily Nagoski
“The person you are is a person worth being. This is the whole you're enough, but the thing is–you are enough. It is only in this like culturally constructed comparison against a fictional and often deliberately unachievable ideal that we torture ourselves about the way our sexuality works.” - Emily Nagoski
“I got taught to put on a show. I got taught that men really like it when women seemed to be having a good time. So I got taught to act like I was having a good time so that he would like it. And there's this big, deep irony that I was learning to put on the show of pleasure, without even asking whether or not I was actually experiencing pleasure.” - Emily Nagoski
“There is no quota of pleasure. There's no such thing as too little pleasure. And there's no such thing as too much pleasure. Nobody gets to judge or decide about your experience of pleasure.” - Emily Nagoski
“If you're a person who needs to like and admire your partner and you need to know that they like and admire you, that they respect you, that they are there for you, then there is no amount of lingerie or handcuffs or porn or role play is ever going to make you interested in having the sex available to you with a person whom you don't trust.” - Emily Nagoski
“Let's make a world with less body shame. Let's make a world where girls are raised to believe that they have a basic right to bodily autonomy and that pleasure is their birthright. They have the right to all the pleasure that their body is capable of experiencing without being afraid of it or ashamed of it or needing to prioritize somebody else's pleasure over theirs.” - Emily Nagoski
“Neurologically, pleasure is a practice. The more we practice paying attention to pleasure, the easier it is for our brains to notice pleasure.” - Emily Nagoski
“Have pleasure. Desire will follow.” - Emily Nagoski
Emily Nagoski’s LinksEmily’s website
Emily’s Instagram
Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Dr. Bessel VanDerKolk For the Love Podcast Episode (Your Body Keeps the Score)
Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Emily Nagoski Amelia Nagoski
Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science that Will Transform Your Sex Life (Emily’s new book)
Magnificent Sex: Lessons from Extraordinary Lovers by Peggy Kleinplatz
ACE resources toward understanding asexuality from The Trevor Project
Orgasms for Two by Betty Dodson
Donald Hall’s Essay about marriage “The Third Thing”
Ms. Marvel - TV Show on Disney+
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
When we were putting this series together about love and sex and relationships, we knew we had to have a guest that was well-versed in the ways of dating through online apps and digital services. For those of us who may be seeking a partner for the first time, or maybe we’re back in the dating pool after leaving a relationship–we can all benefit from practical tips on how to navigate it all. All the questions you could possibly think of related to online dating–we’ve got you covered, like: what do you look for when you’re looking at someone’s online profile? What are the red flags? How do I make my own profile reflect who I am and what I want? And is having a meal on a first date really a good idea? [Spoiler Alert: No.] We’ve got just the person to hold our hand through what can be an overwhelming process—we’re happy to introduce online dating coach, Perri Schneider to the For the Love community. She's going to answer all these questions for us and then some, and you’re going to want to take note of what she has to say. Perri's story is one many of us can relate to. After getting fed up with less than stellar experiences in her attempts at modern dating, she decided to help others navigate this online space. She learned through trial and error, and she’s got the 411 on how to master the process. She helps her clients shift their approach and their intentions with dating apps in the hopes that her clients find precisely what they are looking for–whether it is new experiences, casual fun, relationships, or even their dream partner. Consider this your field guide on which apps to use, how to approach a first date, what to do if you’re ghosted, and so much more–and maybe you’ll even find love along the way.
Thank you to our sponsors!
Liquid IV | Get 25% off at liquid-iv.com using promo code For The Love
Feed These People | Pre-order Jen’s new cookbook and get free extra recipes, cooking videos, and more at jenhatmaker.com/feedthesepeople. Book is on shelves Oct 18, 2022.
All the Dish Tour | Jen is going on tour and will have special guests at each stop! Find your city and get your tickets at jenhatmaker.com.
Thought-Provoking Quotes
“Find one or two apps that you've kind of heard of or that have a good reputation, and just get your toe into the water. Just go for it. And remember, you are in the driver's seat. It's great. If someone's giving you the heebie-jeebies, you can unmatch someone.” - Perri Schneider
“When you're actively looking at profiles, make it your one active task. That way, you're limiting your time spent and you're kind of pushing away the ability for you to fall into that garbage-y feeling.” - Perri Schneider
“There's no rush to meet seven people at once. Enjoy it. Revel in it. Dating should be fun and enjoyable, first and foremost.” - Perri Schneider
“The best way to kind of break into the dating world and really brace yourself for potential rejection is get on the dang phone with them.” - Perri Schneider
“You're never going to find success when you're not in a space where you can ease-in and really present yourself authentically.” - Perri Schneider
Perri Schneider’s LinksPerri’s website
Perri’s Instagram
Perri’s Twitter
Connect with Jen!
Jen’s website
Jen’s Instagram
Jen’s Twitter
Jen’s Facebook
Jen’s YouTube
Producer's Note: Mature subject matter around sex is discussed in this episode.
We’re covering it all in our Relationships, Sex and Dating series, and this week’s episode has a twist. It’s not all flowers, heart emojis, and adrenaline when it comes to love and relationships–finding them, keeping them, growing them. Some of us have done all those things–possibly for many years–and yet for many reasons, find ourselves thrust back into the dating pool after divorce, or death, or when a long term relationship ends. And maybe we never thought we’d have to look to find love again after so many years of being in a relationship. It’s unexpected, it’s disappointing and disorienting. We’ve become strangers in a strange land. Fortunately, we have a guest this week who is going to help map us through that strange land and her name is Laura Stassi. Laura was married for 30 years and went through what researchers have labeled “gray divorce.” As she started to come out of the daze that can set in when your life is completely uprooted in this way–she began to realize that there were a lot more people that had been through the same thing than she had ever imagined. In fact, it’s a worldwide trend. As she noticed that she was in plentiful company with others who were coming out of long term partnerships and trying to figure out what was next, she set her mind to research and that research eventually turned into a popular public radio backed podcast called “Dating While Gray.” Laura and Jen get into it all; How do you navigate today’s world of dating when men and women have thousands of options to choose from via dating apps? What’s it like to have sex with someone new after having sex with the same person for many years? How do you handle finances when you’re both grown ups with assets and income? Find these answers and more from both Laura’s and Jen’s experience, plus a little encouragement that when you’re truly open to new possibilities, the world can open up for you in amazing ways.
Thank you to our sponsors!
Betterhelp | Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/forthelove.
All the Dish Tour| Jen is going on tour! Find your city and get your tickets at jenhatmaker.com.
Feed These People| Pre-order Jen’s new cookbook and get free extra recipes, cooking videos, and more at jenhatmaker.com/feedthesepeople. Book is on shelves Oct 18, 2022.
Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I look back now and people were like, ‘Why were you fighting the end of your marriage so much?’ I was like, ‘You know what? I was scared. I was scared out of my mind.’ Not that I didn't have the strength to be on my own, but I didn't know anybody else who was single.” - Laura Stassi
“Everybody needs to learn how to be on their own happily, financially, emotionally, physiologically. You just need to be comfortable in your own skin, in your own space, in your own skin, however that may look.” - Laura Stassi
“One thing that would behoove all of us is to learn how to be more open with everything. For some of us, I feel like I'm more open mainly because I was forced into it. When you're forced into single's world after being in married land, if you stay close minded about anything, I don't think you're going to have a happy life.” - Laura Stassi
“Money is one of those things that if you're going to become involved with somebody, you need to talk about it. Maybe that means you don't commingle. Maybe that means you don't live together without a cohabitation agreement. The minute you start joining lives officially or unofficially, you want to be very clear about finances.” - Laura Stassi
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Dating While Gray Podcast
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Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For August 2022, Jen and the club read Shauna Niequist’s I Guess I Haven’t Learned That Yet. Now, no one in this community is new to Shauna, she has appeared on the show before and is Jen’s dear friend and tour mate.. But in case you are new to this community, Shauna is an author and speaker who authentically shares the hardships she faces and how she works through them. Her newest book, I Guess I Haven’t Learned That Yet is a poignant and humbling look at her faith, health struggles, and feelings of loneliness as she entered a new phase of life. Every reader can find themselves in the pages, as Shauna is so adept in bringing her story to life in ways we can all relate to. So join us as Jen and Shauna talk about reinventing faith, working towards better health, and healing as a community.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“The point of storytelling, the point of being a writer is not reporting on your own life. It's holding out these little edges of your own experience and offering them to someone else as an active service saying, ‘Does this help? Does this make you feel a little less alone in the world? Could this keep you company along the rougher parts of your journey?’" – Shauna Niequist
“You can live in the most beautiful house in the world or you can have the coolest friends in the world or the coolest experiences, if your mind and body are not working, none of that matters. None of it.” – Shauna Niequist
“There are seasons where we can't always find a church home and that's okay. And then you practice your faith in a field or watching the water or with your journal, or as you walk the city streets and you pray that maybe there will be a time when you can sit at the back of a church, but your faith doesn't have to look the same way forever.” – Shauna Niequist
Shauna’s LinksWebsite
I Guess I Haven’t Learned That Yet - Shauna Niequist
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Our For the Love of Dating, Sex and Relationships series continues, and lest you think we’re solidly in the camp of “all people must be paired up,” let us assure you we’re firmly on the side of choosing whatever state of being (attached or not) best fits your life. We’re here, in this episode, to talk about the state and the choice of singleness. So maybe you’re unattached and you want to find the love of your life. Perhaps you’re getting pressure from friends and family as to why you remain available. (we can all hear that well-meaning person’s voice in our ear–”but you’re such a catch! Why are you still single??). Maybe you’ve gone on a LOT of dates (bad and good) and you’re ready to get off that train, but don’t want to give up the notion of potentially finding someone one day. We have good news. You get to choose to be happily single. And that does not preclude you from future partnership. So maybe the happily single part is what you’re struggling with (and that others in your life who want to see you partnered up aren’t helping) but our guest today knows what you’re going through and wants you to know you’re not alone. After years of actively dating and pursuing dates through a variety of digital means, writer Shani Silver decided she didn’t want to spend the rest of her 30’s swiping through face after face to see if maybe love would find her. She decided to go a different route and is here to share where it's led her on her quest to be happy with who and where she is right now. Shani likes to say that she is not an advocate for singlehood necessarily, but an advocate for women feeling good while single. She wrote a book called A Single Revolution: Don’t Look for a Match, Light One which she hopes is helping women feel better about this incredibly valuable time in their lives. She gives us pointers on how to make ourselves available for all kinds of experiences and people–whether we’re looking for love or not—and surprise, it doesn’t necessarily have to involve dating apps or even dating itself! During their conversation, Jen also discusses her tentative steps into singlehood after 26 years of marriage and her brief experience on dating apps, and how love organically found her. Single, married, divorced or looking for love, we can all look at this time in our lives (and in the lives of our friends) as one to be embraced, not scorned, and why, more than ever, it can be a positive, endlessly full-of-possibility way of living.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“What if being single wasn't bad? What if being single was good and valuable and a really cool, positive endlessly possible season of your life? What if it was good? It's challenging just the fabric of our brains in terms of what singlehood means. But that's where it has to start.” - Shani Silver
“You can look forward to your future relationships. You can even pursue them to the extent that you're comfortable doing so. Dating is not a prerequisite for partnership. You can also value and cherish all of the opportunity that you have now to live happily.” - Shani Silver
“What is meant for you will not miss you.” - Shani Silver
“I would suggest to people and couples is whatever effort a single [person] is making to be a part of your life, if you can, try to reciprocate that effort. And if you can't, let them know why.” - Shani Silver
“We've got to learn to be happy for people. You don't want to live your life as a jealous person. Be happy for people. Be happy.” - Shani Silver
“We deserve more ways out of singlehood misery than just “find someone” and [those ways] are abundant. They do exist. That's why I talk as ferociously as I do because I found them and I love them. If I can pull myself out of the darkest pit of singlehood despair that exists, anyone can.”- Shani Silver
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Description
We’re bringing you all the goods with our For the Love of Dating, Sex and Relationships series. So if you’ve ever tried dating as a fully grown adult, you might have a few feelings about it. Maybe you’ve been swiping and swiping and swiping (and if this makes no sense to you, it’s okay–you’ll know what it means by the end of this series) and you’re just not connecting with anyone who sets your world on fire. It can really be the wild west out there in the digital dating world, but we’re here to help. Perhaps you’ve perused the dating sites and maybe you’ve even joined a site, created a profile, or taken the leap to go on a date. Dating sites have successfully brought millions of people together, but as they say, you might have to kiss a lot of frogs before you meet your prince or princess (no offense to frogs). But there are more than a few ways to find love if you’re looking for it. And this week we are excited to talk about the world of matchmaking–a way of bringing people together that has a long and storied history–and is still alive and well in our digital age. Founder of RBL (Real Black Love) Matchmaking service Joseph Dixon is on the show with his colleague Paris Denise to give us the finer points of finding love through a matchmaker. . Joseph and Paris entered the world of matchmaking after seeing negative experiences that were affecting long and lasting relationships in their community. Since then, they have been focused and dedicated to connecting people for committed relationships in and for the black community. Matchmaking has come a long way since the Victorian era (and even since our 70’s favorite, The Dating Game) and now with experts like Paris and Joseph at the ready, you can take advantage of a deeper way to find someone to share your life–the art of matchmaking has led to thousands of successful relationships!
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I got divorced. I was in my early 30s. There was nothing out there for African American singles looking for substantial connections, and me being a web developer, I decided to go ahead and take the onus on myself to actually build something out to help people like myself find substantial relationships.”
– Joseph Dixon
“We're taking the time to teach people that you need to holistically look at people. And of course income is important, of course assets are important, but also a person's character, their conflict resolution skills, their emotional intelligence and their support, and their general personality and how they receive love and how they give love is important as well.” – Paris Denise
“Change up your dating cycle, change up your dating pattern because you don't know what you don't like until you actually don't like it.” – Joseph Dixon
“When it came to dating apps, when it comes to Black people, it was a taboo in our community. And if you were on a dating app, you didn't talk about it at all, right? This is literally less than 10 years ago.”
– Joseph Dixon
“Don't tell me what you want. I need to find out what you need, because if we can establish that first, then you may find out the person that you've been looking for is not actually the person that you really need." – Joseph Dixon
“People are dealing with a lot of relationship anxiety. They're dealing with a lot of doubt, a lot of trauma. I'm not a genie and I'm not a wizard, but I can definitely get in the trenches with you and help you fight this battle, because it's challenging being single and finding the person that you want.” – Paris Denise
Joseph & Paris’ LinksReal Black Love Website
Real Black Love Instagram
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One aspect of dating after a breakup or divorce is the terrifying ordeal of being known again. Whether it’s because you can’t imagine opening yourself back up to someone in complete vulnerability or maybe you can’t fathom anyone having enough time to plumb the depths of your idiosyncrasies—I mean, who is ever going to take the time to learn your quirks and help you celebrate them in all their unapologetic glory, again? And how are you going to ever forgive the person who disappointed you and doesn’t want to be your #1 knower anymore? With Jen jumping back in the saddle in the dating world, we needed someone to help us all laugh and sift through post-divorce dating tribulations. Cameron Esposito is a comedian, author, podcast host, actor and recovering Catholic; and we’re delighted to have her lead the way for this episode of the Dating, Sex and Relationships series. Like Jen, Cameron went through a public facing divorce and has since found love and happiness. They talk about the complications of coming into yourself while dating when you’re dealing with grief from divorce, trauma from a strict religious culture, and new unexplored feelings around your gender and body. No stone is left unturned in this conversation and Cameron’s frank and honest storytelling is a balm for those of us afraid of a future that doesn’t look like our past.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“Certainty used to make me feel safe, it felt like guardrails around me and the way that I knew what the rules were, I knew what to do and not to do. Then those began to lose their appeal, of course, and then became their own prison, ultimately. But curiosity is a completely different posture.” – Cameron Esposito
“Queer culture isn't actually about sex, but because it's been criminalized and othered, it also was embraced and the culture was built around it.” – Cameron Esposito
“To not have characters who represent us [in media] is to remove us from the world. If we're not there, you've removed us.” – Cameron Esposito
“If somebody dies and is erased from the planet, then we can go to that person's people and it's a little more clean to understand that that person might feel grief. I think in the case of divorce, that can get really muddled for folks.” – Cameron Esposito
Cameron’s LinksWebsite
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We’re starting a new series that is going to be fire–it’s For the Love of Dating, Sex and Relationships. We’re going to cover a lot of territory over the life of this series–and with this episode we’re going to start with a question; what was it that you learned about sex during the most formative years of your life? Because whether you realize it or not, this can greatly shape how you approach sex as an adult. Maybe you’ve been unraveling what it is you think about sex, how you think about your body, what sex means to you–and you’re tracing it back to what you learned as teenager or young adult–and maybe that education wasn’t positive. To help guide us through making those connections to our early sexual education and how we view sex today is therapist Jay Stringer–returning for his second appearance on the show. Jay pulls back the curtain on the teachings many of us got about sex when we were young. Even if you never were a part of movements like “True Love Waits,” or received lessons on purity culture by your church, or other religious organizations–perhaps there was a rigid sexual space in the childhood home you grew up in. We’re speaking to all the ways sex might have been presented to us with messages of shame. Jay encourages us to look at our sexual stories, seeking ways to find healing and wholeness toward a healthy view of sex. And bonus–for you parents who find talking about sex with your kids akin to a slow, painful death, Jay and Jen talk through ways can engage our kids around sex without the shame approach that a lot of us experienced, and to have those conversations in a loving, age-appropriate way by being open and responsive.
Content Warning: This episode talks extensively about sex, sexuality, and unwanted sexual behaviors, so it may not be suitable for young listeners.
Series Description
Y’all. It’s time to talk about it. The good, the bad, the ugly, the dramatic, the hilarious. That’s right–we’re talking about relationships. As Jen dips her toes back in the dating world post-divorce, what better time to call in the experts? For many of us grown adults who haven’t dated in a thousand years, the methods have changed, the rules have changed (swipe left anyone?) and we’re clueless where to start. And for those of you have been in the mix of it for awhile, you’ll still find something new to learn in these conversations that run the gamut from sex, to matchmaking, to finding love in this new world order. We’ll also talk about what to do when your kids start dating, how to navigate the apps (RIP to our sanity), and what to do if you don’t want to be single, and if you do, how to find the maximum satisfaction out of going it solo. We’ll chat with experts, friends, mentors, leaders–basically the people who have the receipts to give us the goods on what healthy relationships look like and how to nurture and build them to what they need to be. Because at the end of the day, good relationships with ourselves and others are what makes life sweeter.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“If you hate your sexual desire, and you are militantly trying to stop it, you are going to develop a very severe and harmful theology, and that's exactly what happened in purity culture.” – Jay Stringer
“I've seen the purity culture really affect women in three particular ways. I would say that it deprioritizes women's sexual pleasure. It set women up for sexual violation. Then, the third, is that it contributed to sexual pain.” – Jay Stringer
“I think one of the greatest myths out there is that you can't change your past. In some ways, the past is far easier to change than the future, in that you can go back to that scared, adolescent girl, and you can begin to mother her. You can ask her, ‘what are the things that you wish that you would have known back in the day?’” – Jay Stringer
“When we don't have language for what we're experiencing or what we're coming out of, we aren't going to have language to be able to create a new sexual world, so we've got to educate ourselves. We've got to get into community and start talking through this stuff in order to rewrite our sexual script.” – Jay Stringer
“For a seed to grow, it has to transgress the seed casing, and the root has to go down in order for the shoot to go up, and so that sense of our children need to transgress the boundaries, in some ways, that we have created, in order for them to individuate, to be able to grow. We don't want to create soil that does not allow them to transgress the boundaries of childhood. We want to allow some of that transgression to grow. I think that begins by inviting them to consider like, what do you want your own sexual story to look like?” – Jay Stringer
“View sexual difficulties as a stage to be able to rewrite your story.” – Jay Stringer
Jay’s LinksWebsite
Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeUnwanted: How Sexual Brokeness Reveals Our Way to Healing - Jay Stringer
Addressing Broken Sexual Behavior with Jay Stringer - For the Love Podcast Episode
The Great Sex Rescue: The Lies You’ve Been Taught and How to Recover What God Intended - Sheila Gregoire
Come As You Are: Revised and Updated: The Surprising New Science That Will Transform Your Sex Life - Emily Nagoski
Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less - Greg McKeown
Dr. Dan Allender
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We’ve reached the end friends, sadly Me Camp 2022 is over for the summer. And just like real camp, coming back home is wonderful and bittersweet at the same time. Making new friends, trying new things and getting outside the everyday routine is the magic of camp and Jen reflects on her time in Aspen to her last days in Grand Marais with gratefulness to be able to take this kind of time for herself (and to invite others into the fold, turning MeCamp into WeCamp!). Jen shares how MeCamp began; it started with the need to get away to regroup from a chaotic and heartbreaking season of her life and led to a revelation of what it truly means to take time for yourself to heal. She vowed that she wouldn’t go another year without taking this time, but instead of being born out of sadness, this year’s MeCamp was a deliberate, and joyful excursion. While listing all the the virtues of solo travel, Jen gives us some practical ideas on how we can replicate our own MeCamp— even if we’re not able to travel far or for an extended time. Enjoy this last letter from MeCamp 2022, and let’s start dreaming about our own 2023 MeCamps!
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Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For July 2022, Jen and the club read Sarah Blake’s The Guest Book. Sarah is the author of several books including a book of poetry, the New York Times bestseller The Postmistress, and our book this month, The Guest Book. The Guest Book was a New York Times bestseller, an Amazon Best Book of 2019, and found it’s spot at #1 on the Indie Next List in May of 2019. So join us as Jen and Sarah get into what it looks like to write a book over the course of 9 years, how we can all find growth and understanding in the history of our family, and why it’s so important to continue to evolve over time.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“When Obama was running for president in 2008, he reminded us that his presidency was going to kick off a kind of racial awareness. And he especially invoked Faulkner's line, ‘the past isn't dead in this country, it isn't even past.’ And so I wanted to think about why that is, and it seems that doing the family novel was going to help.” – Sarah Blake
“We are often echoing or repeating our parents or grandparents without knowing that's what we're doing because we don't know fully who they are. I really wanted to think about that, or I wanted the novel to think about that.” – Sarah Blake
“I wanted this novel to take a look at the history of racism and antisemitism. And in particular, I wanted to look at it in terms of my family. What was the history inside?” – Sarah Blake
Sarah’s LinksWebsite
Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeBliss - Katherine Mansfield
The Lighthouse Keeper’s Daughters - Hazel Gaynor
To the Lighthouse - Virginia Woolf
A Ghost in the Throat - Doireann Ní Ghríofa
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Description
With MeCamp on the tail end of it’s 2022 tenure, Jen is still traversing the wilds of Minnesota, trespassing on neighboring roofs to read her book, and bring her beloveds along on the ride with her. So as we enter week 3, Jen’s best girlfriends arrive for 4 days, followed by a visit from our favorite Hatmaker sisters, Remy and Sydney. Jen also gives her takeaways on the value of carving out this kind of time in your life–whether it’s a few days in a tent a couple of miles from your house, or a staycation in a nearby town–it’s really about the time for YOU, and less about where you go or how long you retreat. But for now, as we live vicariously through Jen in Minnesota this week, we’ll visit the local country store, walk between 400 and 4 million stairs on a hike, bike along the lake, and happily wear sweatshirts in July.
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This year’s Me Camp is in full swing, community. We have traveled from Austin to Aspen, and now up, up, up to the Northwoods of Minnesota, where we find ourselves in Grand Marais. Nestled on the shores of Lake Superior, this teeny tiny town was home to Jen for 3 weeks. And she is doing it all. Eating a plethora of fried fish salads, skipping rocks in the bay, potentially trespassing to sit on a picturesque roof and read her book and drink her wine. BONUS: Jen is joined by none other than the man of the moment Tyler Merritt, who discusses his unique state of being in the great white north, and his surprising and ever-so-northeastern encounter with a music-loving octogenarian.
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Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeThe Lighthouse Keeper’s Daughter - Hazel Gaynor
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This year’s Me Camp is in full swing, community. We have traveled from Austin to Aspen, and now up, up, up to the Northwoods of Minnesota, where we find ourselves in Grand Marais. Nestled on the shores of Lake Superior, this teeny tiny town was home to Jen for 3 weeks. And she is doing it all. Eating a plethora of fried fish salads, skipping rocks in the bay, potentially trespassing to sit on a picturesque roof and read her book and drink her wine. BONUS: Jen is joined by none other than the man of the moment Tyler Merritt, who discusses his unique state of being in the great white north, and his surprising and ever-so-northeastern encounter with a music-loving octogenarian.
Thank you to our sponsors!
Me Camp Merch | Grab your merch today at jenhatmaker.com/shop!
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Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeThe Lighthouse Keeper’s Daughter - Hazel Gaynor
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You guys, it’s time again for us to load up the suitcases, grab the comfy shoes, and head on out to Me Camp 2022. What is MeCamp you say? Jen took an extended solo trip to Maine last year after a really tough season. What she thought might be lonely and maybe a bit TOO reflective became something so rejuvenating and powerful in her life, she couldn’t keep it to herself and began sharing her experiences online with her community. So this year, she decided to mix it up and do some more solo travel (and add some friends in the mix during the time) and pull in her podcast community for all the insight, learnings and fun. This year, join Jen as she spends time in the beautiful Rocky Mountains for week 1 of MeCamp 2022! Binge Jen’s first full week while she hits the town with an open heart and mind, eats where the locals eat, and shop where they shop. Bonus tidbits: she visits the Aspen Ideas Festival, a space filled with some of the smartest humans alive (and maybe a random Katie Couric spotting!). Join us as all (even you folks from Aspen, who might have spotted Jen out there) as we all live vicariously through Jen’s trip to rest, reflect, and learn.
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Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeAspen Ideas Festival
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The past few weeks have been so nurturing to the collective soul of this podcast community. We have gotten together with a friend, and caught up on all that matters in our worlds (as friends do) and talked through the changes we’ve both faced recently, on finding and keeping friendship alive at this season in our lives, and how we’ve each evolved in our own beliefs. And we’re always a little sad to say goodbye to friends, but we know that the bonds we’ve built here will keep us going til we can meet again. For the last episode of the For the Love of Conversations series, Jen and Kelly share about the men in their lives–from their friends, to their sons, their brothers, fathers and their partners—we speak to the unique relationship the opposite sex brings to our lives. And right now in our culture, in some ways that are fair, and other ways that aren't, men are getting thrown under the bus, somewhat carte blanche. And this is rightly so in many cases and much overdue in some areas. But it still stands that there are good men and boys in our culture, men that defy the misogynistic stereotypes, and they do lift up women and are there for their sisters and their wives and their daughters and their mothers. Jen and Kelly poke at the view of men where they are portrayed as wild and rough and emotionally unregulated–those traits can sometimes be found–but they share stories of their fathers, brothers and friends that show the reverse can be true (Kelly’s story about her dad is a 10-kleenex-er, so get ready), and that the men in their lives have truly taught them how to love better.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“Isn't it funny how lucky we can get when the women that we love have men that we love too?”
– Jen Hatmaker
“A table is better with women at it, it also holds that a table is better with men at it. It shouldn't be a room full of either.” – Kelly Corrigan
“It's not true that boys don't have feelings. It's not true that they don't love deeply. It's not true that love doesn't cut them just as deep as it does girls. It's not true that they're not scared to ask a girl to prom. They are tender. It's just the packaging is so wild.” – Jen Hatmaker
“I think we have this metric for coming close to somebody that we love in their pain or in their suffering, that we've got to hit the right notes. We've got to get the formula right. That's not really how suffering works. It's just that you have to do this, but we'll make sure you're just not alone while you're doing it. That's enough.” – Jen Hatmaker
“My parents set a really good example for me of being deeply connected to their friends, the men, the women, everybody. And so I never knew that that wasn't a thing. I just assumed you grow up and you create deep and lasting relationships with the men and women in your life. That's just how you live.” – Jen Hatmaker
Kelly’s LinksWebsite
Kelly’s Podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders
Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeKate Baer
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Welcome back to another episode of our For the Love of Conversations series with one of Jen’s best loved friends, author, speaker and podcaster Kelly Corrigan. Both Jen and Kelly have seen strong beliefs give way to new beliefs, and old beliefs be tested by time and experience. It's a wonder to learn as you move through the world, even if those lessons are hard won and hands down, a ton of them are. It's a beautiful and redemptive thing to take a step back and level the playing field you are on–in whatever season of life you’re in–and see if everything that makes up “you:” all the stories you tell yourself about your life and other people and what happened to you and even about your own self–that composite of what you believe. And take heart in knowing that your beliefs don’t have to remain the same forever– they can grow and change with us. Jen and Kelly go deep into what beliefs they hold dear, how the truth that binds us might look a little different than it used to for all of us, and the comfort they find in a community that lives with a sense of curiosity and how to keep that alive for every phase of our beliefs.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I think we're built to evaluate instantly friend or foe. I think that's our evolutionary nature, but we're not on the Savannah anymore. We can take a minute to make that judgment. In fact, the longer we can hold off on making that judgment, maybe the more interesting people and stories we’ll be able to consume in a lifetime.” – Kelly Corrigan
“None of us have everything exactly right because that's not a thing. There's no such thing as always right or always wrong. I just think we would become so much more interesting as a people if we were able to humbly take in a person's differing experience, or opinion, or worry. Those are the people that I want in my life right now. Those are the ones.” – Jen Hatmaker
“We can all love each other and not believe the same things. That's just not a requirement.” – Kelly Corrigan
“Is your version of faith making you kinder, is it making you more loving, is it making you more humble, is it creating peace around you, is it good to other people? That's a kind of faith I can get behind. If it's making you mean, and angry, and hateful, and scared, that needs reexamining.” – Jen Hatmaker
Kelly’s LinksWebsite
Kelly’s Podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders
Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeKate Baer
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Friendship is one of those gifts in life we can run to when it feels like the rest of the world just doesn’t get us. On a day when life hasn’t been cooperating exactly as you’d hoped, who hasn’t called that friend we can vent to, cry to, laugh with, and compare notes with? And the longer a friendship goes, the deeper the bond seems to be. But some of us are in spaces in our lives where we’ve had to follow another dream and leave the proximity of our friends. And the work of friendship takes on a different layer. It can be difficult to connect like we used to–even if it was just dropping by to say hi because you could–it’s harder to keep relationships alive when you don’t see your friend daily, weekly, or even monthly. In this second installment of our For the Love of Conversations with Jen and Kelly, we are talking all about friendship and how it changes as you mature, grow, and perhaps even re-locate. And how to keep it going strong—even across the divides of family commitments, jobs, and miles in between. Jen and Kelly first had this conversation over on Kelly’s podcast, but we loved it so much we had to share it here–plus–-Jen has added some of her own insights and comments regarding her friendship with Kelly and what she learned through their conversation.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“We're older and friendships have shifted and we have changed. A friend that was a friend 15 years ago doesn't have a tidy space in the life we have now, or our lives have changed. We've moved, and making new friends at our age can be really challenging. I don't think it's as trite as it might sound.”
– Jen Hatmaker
“Those precious friends that are in every nook and cranny, the ones who need nothing, no invitation, no permission, no entertaining, they can be pretty rare. I think we probably treasure them and miss them when we don't have them.” – Jen Hatmaker
“I like the appreciation you're showing for some of the spaces where friendships can be surprising, where they're not just the ones we choose or we seek out, or the thing that we have in common is so obvious that we're just bound to be friends. Some of those are the most interesting people that come into our lives.” – Jen Hatmaker
“I'm a fixer like you, and I'm smart at fixing. I'm so good at it if everybody would listen to me. But I've been in really serious therapy for the last year and a half just working through all of it. Part of it has been my kids suffering, which like me, okay, I can handle this. My kids suffering? Just put me under.”
– Jen Hatmaker
“What's interesting is the challenge. What's interesting is a little bit of tension, a completely different opinion or perspective or experience. That's interesting. That makes me curious. That'll keep me locked in.” – Jen Hatmaker
“A connected life drunk with rich relationships is central to my soul theology. I hold so many elements of my life loosely. My career and platform matter enormously, and I aim to offer the truest best work I'm capable of. But if it went away or shifted, I'd adjust my sails. However, if all I was left holding were relationships with my family and closest community, if that is all that remained, I would still consider myself the luckiest girl on earth. My life derives its greatest meaning, its power and energy, from the people I love who love me too.” – Jen Hatmaker
Kelly’s LinksWebsite
Kelly’s Podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders
Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeFor the Love of Friendships: Savoring Your Friendships with Shauna Niequist
Kate Baer
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You know there really isn’t much that’s more comforting than sitting down with one of your friends and talking openly because you know they just get you. They have seen you grow and change and evolve and become who you are today–and they don’t try to stand in the way of that change however hard it may be for them, or for you. These conversations with friends are life-giving. And with that in mind, we thought it might be fun to have a series of conversations here in our podcast community with our best and brightest friends and dispensers of wisdom and humor. And our first conversation partner for this 4-part series is none other than one of our favorite humans herself–author, podcaster and speaker Kelly Corrigan. This first installment of For the Love of Conversations will bring us 4 weeks from Kelly’s own show, Kelly Corrigan Wonders, with new thoughts and insights from Jen herself at the front of each episode. To kick things off, Kelly and Jen tackle the good, the bad, and the ugliest parts of change. We all know that change is hard, not just for us, but for our people–and that pesky inability to see the future makes it even harder. Jen and Kelly lean into the notion that change can be beautiful. It helps us create the life we want for ourselves while growing us into the people we’ve always wanted to be.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“Change, although it can be literally devastating, can also, and generally does, turn out to be a great and wonderful good.” – Jen Hatmaker
“There's something in us, even in the worst possible scenario that compels us to live, that compels us to recover and to reach for hope and light and love.” – Jen Hatmaker
“Somebody is going to make you laugh just when you thought you might never smile again. You get to borrow from their life force until your own returns.” – Jen Hatmaker
“In chasing change the risk is worth the reward as it makes us fuller, rounder, more compassionate human people. It brings us closer to alignment, into what we love, what we're good at, what has meaning to us, what brings us to life.” – Jen Hatmaker
Kelly’s LinksWebsite
Kelly’s Podcast, Kelly Corrigan Wonders
Books & Resources Mentioned in This Episode
Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking - Susan Cain
The Middle Place - Kelly Corrigan
Worst End of School Year Mom Ever - Jen Hatmaker
Simple Habit App
Kate Baer
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As we come to the end of our Favorite Pastimes series, we hope you are filling your summer with your favorite activities —and maybe some new ones we’ve talked about here! Our series wouldn’t be complete without a conversation about one universal pastime that is approached with either love or loathing—cooking! Perhaps cooking has become nothing but drudgery for you and those ungrateful kids who eye your culinary masterpieces with disdain have made you turn to slinging out Lunchables and microwave mac and cheese. Or maybe you are single and cooking for one seems like a chore. Or maybe you think cooking could be your thing but you’re intimidated by the lingo and measurements and if you have the right appliances (Hot Pots! Air Fryers! Immersion Blenders! Oh my!). No matter where you fall on the cooking spectrum, easy and delicious summer cooking is within your reach and we have a guest who is here to help us claim our cooking identity. Teri Turner is an author, home cook, and podcast host who has turned her love of the kitchen into a whole career for herself. Her mantra is “It’s Just Food,” —takes the pressure off, right? She encourages us to find our “food thing” and how we can perfect that signature dish that will have even the most skeptical palates coming back for more. Teri’s tips include Whole30 options, gluten free dishes—she leaves nothing behind. Teri makes cooking seem accessible to us all—and promises our kitchens can be places of joy and magic-making. * * *
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I love sharing inspiration for food and I love tips and tricks to get you in the kitchen and to cook real food, because all of us are on our phones all the time. We're busy, we’re going out to eat. And we just have to get back to take a breath and get back to cooking some beautiful food. And find the joy that comes from cooking food, eating it with friends, and the celebration of cooking.” – Teri Turner
“Here’s the thing, we have to eat anyway so we might as well surrender to it and allow cooking to be something spectacular and fun.” – Teri Turner
“Go for what you want and make it happen and believe in yourself. And by the way have a lot of fun doing it.” – Teri Turner
Teri’s LinksWebsite
Table Talks Podcast
Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeNo Crumbs Left : Whole30 Endorsed, Recipes for Everyday Food Made Marvelous - Teri Turner
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Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For May 2022, Jen and the club read Abi Dare’s The Girl With The Louding Voice. Abi is originally from Lagos, Nigeria and went on to study law in the UK at the University of Wolverhampton and eventually earned her MA in Creative Writing at Birkbeck, University of London. Not only is she an incredible writer, she is also a major advocate for women’s education. Her husband inspired her to write this book and it came about after discussing how they saw housemaids treated during their childhood. The Girl With The Louding Voice was a New York Times Bestseller, a #ReadWithJenna Today Show book club pick, and it was an Indie Next Pick. This story whipped up a ton of talk and for a good reason, it helps folks see the impact lack of education, opportunity, and freedom can have on young girls across the world. So without further ado, please enjoy this conversation with author extraordinaire, Abi Dare.
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I knew I wanted to tell a story of a young girl who was semi illiterate and had only three years of education. And that was very different from who I am. And so I decided to try to create a character that I could give her the story that she deserves.” – Abi Dare
“In your own little tiny way, and with tiny little gestures of kindness of reaching out, you can change a life. And you can make a difference.” – Abi Dare
Abi’s LinksInstagram
Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeBig Little Lies - Liane Moriarty
My Sister, The Serial Killer - Oyinkan Braithwaite
Open Water - Caleb Azuma Nelson
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Time to grab your passport and packing cubes! The world’s back open for travel—and if you’ve tried to book a trip recently, you know that, hello, the prices are a smidge higher than they used to be. But with a little planning and a lot of advice from The Points Guy, you can rack up the credit card points that’ll get you to unforgettable destinations around the world for a fraction of the price! Brian Kelly, The Points Guy himself, joins Jen to share how he turned his love of a good deal into a lifestyle brand sharing travel how-to’s for every budget from every corner of the planet (it’s a wild story!). Brian tips his hand on the best-kept trips you need to take at home and abroad, how you can earn enough points for a free flight to Europe in 90 days, all while building a credit score that can unlock opportunities at home while you plan your next getaway. #practical This episode is a treasure trove of travel tips, so grab a pen and paper—and maybe a fruity drink with an umbrella—because your next adventure is closer than you think! * * *
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I think what I've done with points is take this really granular boring subject and kind of make it fun and ‘look what I can do.’ And being 6'7" whenever I test out airline seats and hotels, I'm like, If I can be comfortable in this seat you can too. And I added my own personality into it whereas a lot of other bloggers were kind of clinical and just taking pictures of the plane seat and the plane whereas I kind of injected a little fabulousity into it.” – Brian Kelly
“I just want to put this out there for people: if you're paying with cash or debit card, you're paying for my points. . . . When you pay cash, you're losing money because you're not getting the rewards that are built into the cost of goods.” – Brian Kelly
“When you find amazing deals, book it because most airlines will let you cancel within a day. So don't call all your friends and try to herd the cats on taking the trip, book the flight and then take 24 hours to double check you can do it. Book now, think later, that's my advice.” – Brian Kelly
“The coolest thing about points is that you can get points for free, essentially. In the US it's so lucrative—no other country can you get points paying your rent or doing online shopping. And so basically what you want to do, the foundation of any good points strategy, is maximizing your spending.” – Brian Kelly
“There's certain places you go that are just spiritual that have that energy and it's Guatemala, the food, it's safe. I've been to Guatemala multiple times, and everyone I take is like, ‘This is amazing, why doesn't everyone go here?’” – Brian Kelly
“I do believe people become better people, the more of the world they travel. You realize that other people are not scary, they're actually amazing.” – Brian Kelly
Bryan’s LinksBrian’s website, The Points Guy
Brian’s Instagram
Brian’s farm, Carbon Ridge Animal Sanctuary
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When it comes to hobbies and pastimes, the inspiration can be drawn from anywhere. Maybe it was something you did during the summer as a kid, or it was an activity you loved to do with your mom in her freetime. No matter where your inspiration stems from, perhaps you’ve returned to it today and it brings you peace, comfort and even healing. Our guest this week was diagnosed 15 years ago with Celiac Disease, with neurological implications that put her in a wheelchair. Looking for solace and healing, she turned to her two favorite things: reading and gluten free baking. Stephanie Hockersmith, aka, PieLadyBooks, took her therapeutic pastime and has turned it into an absolutely amazing Instagram page and now small business (and healer herself in the process)! She takes covers of her favorite books and turns them into the most incredible pies you have ever seen! If you are curious like we were when we first met Stephanie, be sure to head over to watch this episode on YouTube as we’ll be sharing some of the incredible pies she’s created there. You’ll be inspired as Stephanie talks about how she stumbled into this art, how it guided her healing process, and why believing in yourself creates magic if you let it. * * *
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I got really, really sick about 15 years ago. It was actually celiac disease. My husband really loved pies, so I thought, "You know what? I'm going to try to really master a yummy gluten-free pie.” I just researched and researched and researched and it kept me alive in a lot of ways. As you're healing and your body's getting stronger, I had this project to work on, and so I started making these really beautiful pies.” – Stephanie Hockersmith
“It's exciting to see magic in yourself and to see yourself as something magical. I have a really hard time embracing that but pie making has helped me.” – Stephanie Hockersmith
“I am abundantly grateful. It is the most weird little niche I could have ever imagined. I never expected it, and if I could say that to anybody it's I went from being in a wheelchair 15 years ago to The Today Show last week. So you just never know where your journey's going to go.” – Stephanie Hockersmith
“Don't give up and keep fighting for that magical part of you that makes you feel alive, because it's crucial to who we are and allows us to pour out into others in such big ways.” – Stephanie Hockersmith
“For anyone looking to find their creative niche, I would say to just start. Start something, find something that gives you spark.” – Stephanie Hockersmith
Stephanie’s LinksInstagram
Stephanie’s Girl Power Playlist
Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeToday Show Appearance
The Smallest Part - Amy Harmon
Untamed - Glennon Doyle
All The Blues Come Through - Metra Farrari
The Girl With The Louding Voice - Abi Dare
All Along You Were Blooming - Morgan Harper Nichols
With The Fire on High - Elizabeth Acevedo
Fight Song - Rachel Platten
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Aren’t we all inspired by people who have taken their favorite hobby, or their little side hustle, or their craft–and they invested in it, they loved it so much that it became their main thing? In this series, we’ve introduced a variety of pastimes we all can enjoy this summer–the kinds of things that give us that break from the daily grind–but in doing so, we’re also talking to folks who took the leap to make their pastime their career. And in this episode, we’re giving a nod to a pastime that’s been exploding over the past few years–a love for plants and gardening! For many, gardening has long been a part of their favorite pastimes, but we’re seeing it become more accessible to weekend gardeners, others who thought they could never be good at it, or those who thought the whole proposition of keeping another living thing fed and watered was overwhelming at best. Marcus Bridgewater, aka, Garden Marcus, is our horticultural guide to the secret of growing healthy plants, and simultaneously, becoming more healthy ourselves. He presides over an insanely popular Instagram account, is a content creator and a CEO of his company Choice Forward, where he offers workshops, presentations, life coaching, and more to empower individuals and strengthen communities. Jen shares the story of her metamorphosis from becoming a plant murderer to plant mom with the advent of two little hanging plants entrusted to her by friends in a season where she was struggling to nurture herself; much less two plants. Marcus also gives us a peek into his new book, How to Grow: Nurture Your Garden, Nurture Yourself, and shows that it is possible to keep ourselves, our loved ones and our plants thriving and growing. * * *
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“Not to deter people from plant care, but taking care of plants can be a science in a way. There are lots of levels of thought and things to consider, lots of variables that affect them, but the rewards are so cosmic that it makes all of that effort worth it.” – Marcus Bridgewater
“Every time I walked into the garden, it made me a better teacher, it made me a better friend, a better person.” – Marcus Bridgewater
“All living things respond to vibration. Your voice is a collection of vibrations, and so this means your voice can be a valuable tool if you use it wisely. So, be conscious of how you use your voice, because if you're not using your voice with kindness, chances are you're not building community.” – Marcus Bridgewater
“There's no reason to not get plants, but there is also no reason to have them and have them decline and have them cost you. They're an incredible tool and that tool can become a vice if we are not conscious.” – Marcus Bridgewater
“We need to plant seeds of love, kindness, patience, and positivity so that we can grow wholesome roots, that will yield trees of prosperity, which will then yield fruits of success that we can all enjoy. And I think that if we are more conscious of those seeds, we can live in a future that has a forest of prosperity for us to all enjoy.” – Marcus Bridgewater
Marcus’s LinksWebsite
Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeChoice Forward
How to Grow: Nurture Your Garden, Nurture Yourself - Marcus Bridgewater
Dana Hammarstrom - Co-Founder of Choice Forward
Plants Mentioned From Easiest to Hardest to Maintain
Philodendron Giganteum
Dieffenbachia
Silver Sword Philodendron
Asparagus Fern
Bromeliads
Pothos
Sweet Potato Ivy
Snake Plants
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As we continue on in our Favorite Pastime series, we’re reveling in all the opportunities that are hiding in plain sight–through the beloved activities, we cherish in our spare time. No spare time, you say? We understand—and that’s where our series has a delightful twist–these folks took their passions and hobbies and turned them from hobbies into full-fledged careers. So you think those toaster cozies you like to knit can’t be a full time gig? Think again–we’ve got creators, makers and dreamers of all ilks–and this week’s guest is one for the books! She is an artist, a poet, a driftwood collecting connoisseur–yes you heard us right–and she is creating the most unique, beautiful and accessible art that you would ever hope to see. Jaime Kurowski has always felt the call to pursue art, as it’s ingrained in her family tree. So when she took a sabbatical from teaching to pursue her driftwood creations, it wasn’t a big surprise for anyone. But like many creatives, her work comes from a place of darkness. One devastating event led to another and Jaime found herself seeking healing from her profound emotional and physical brokenness. Part of her healing was finding a new way to unwind, express herself, and put light into the world. She came through that rough season and now has a company of her own that is thriving, and also heads up a collective of female business owners and artists who have gone through similar journeys, who all focus on finding the audacity to believe in themselves and their talents. * * *
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“This is my first year where I'm a full-time creative, and I'm reinventing the things that I loved about teaching, my passion for creative writing, and my passion for the words that we have on repeat in our head, women, adults, and children. And then using the driftwood to give it art.” – Jaime Kurowski
“She was free. And when she returned to the trees, she dressed herself in lovely, placed flowers in her hair. Let sensuality slip off her shoulder, slipped strength upon her feet, looked down at this solid ground and finally stepped into herself.” – an excerpt from a poem by Jaime Kurowski
“If you ask a fourth grade class what they have on repeat, they're like, ‘I'm stupid,’ or ‘I'm ugly.’ And the confidence camp that I did for them to have a place to not be alone in that, is everything to me.” – Jaime Kurowski
Jaime’s LinksWebsite
Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeThe Make(Her) Collective
The Make(Her) Collective Website
For the Love of the Elephant in the Room: Grief on Your Terms with Sal & Im
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We’re back with another episode in our For the Love of Favorite Pastimes series, and this week, we’re talking about the great outdoors. And in case you think this topic is just for those of you who find their greatest joy loading up piles of gear to go hiking for 20 miles every weekend, or for all the rabid runners, cyclists, swimmers, campers, and the rest of you that make the other half of us real, real tired––there’s something for all of us who may like being outside, even those who aren’t necessarily the outdoorsy type. Maybe your jam is barbecuing outside with friends, or sitting on your porch swing à la Jen Hatmaker. At the end of the day ,we can all agree (and science proves) that spending time in nature makes a person happier. And that’s the message this week’s guest is taking to the masses. Ben Steele is the Chief Customer Officer at REI - the nation’s largest consumer co-op for the outdoor community. Ben didn’t grow up with an innate love for nature, even though it was a part of his family’s life in Idaho. It wasn’t until he found his own outdoor personality as an adult that he truly appreciated the benefits of spending time outside (and surprise– it doesn’t have to involve driving miles away from home or having oodles of gear). * * *
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“There is science that says when folks have access to green spaces, have access to clean air, have access to time outside, you're healthier as an individual and at a societal level.” – Ben Steele
“The only part of your day you truly control is what time you get up. So I get up early to get my time outdoors every day on the weekdays. And there's definitely days I'd rather stay in bed, but if I put it off for the end of the day, there's always something that comes up.” – Ben Steele
“The outside is not an equally safe space for everybody. It's certainly true for women. It's certainly true for people of color. It's certainly true for even different identity groups. And so we've got to be honest about everything from racist naming of outdoor places, to a legacy of stolen land, to the reality that, depending on who I am, I may not feel that comfortable outside or around other people.” – Ben Steele
“Relatively early in COVID [REI] had built a beautiful new headquarters and we sold it. We made the
decision that we'd rather have these dollars working for our employees, working for our customers, working for our business. So we've been in a virtual environment with a couple of satellite offices for the last few years. And that was a big change for our headquarters. We're trying to recognize, ‘wow, my days at home are really efficient and really effective and productive. My days in the office are really connected.’ Both of those things matter.” - Ben Steele on achieving work life balance.
“I think for somebody who says I'm not an outdoors person, I'm not outdoorsy. I think what I'd ask is what they like to do outside? And it might be a barbecue in the backyard with their family. They love to sit on the front porch and watch the world go by. They love to watch a sunset or they love birds. Whatever you like, find a way to pursue that.” – Ben Steele
Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeREI Co-Op
REI Gear Trade-In
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Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For April 2022, Jen and the club read Sarah Penner’s The Lost Apothecary. Sarah began writing seriously back in 2015 after attending a lecture by one of our favorite authors–Elizabeth Gilbert. Soon after that moment, Sarah enrolled in her first creative writing class, and y’all, how lucky are we that she did. Her book, The Lost Apothecary, was an instant success. It debuted at #7 on the New York Times bestseller list, and has been translated into over 40 languages. Based on a real-life mudlarking discovery (and yes, she explains what that is), Sarah takes us back in time to see how one woman created space for women everywhere to do what they needed to do. So, we are more than thrilled to bring this conversation to you all with the wonderful and talented Sarah Penner. * * *
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“I don't think Nella is a hero or a villain. I think she's somewhere in the middle. And that's how all of us are really, none of us are heroes. None of us are villains. We're all somewhere in the middle.”
– Sarah Penner
“Sometimes we can meet someone and just form an instant friendship, sisterhood, connection, whatever you want to call it. And those can be the people that are most impactful in our lives. We don't need to only rely on these friends that we've had our whole lives. Sometimes the people that we need the most are just right there in the near vicinity.”
– Sarah Penner
"Betrayal is part of the human experience. And one of the most enjoyable things about writing this book was I was able to compare and contrast how things were different with 200 years between them. And one of the main things that was the same is how we are all hurt by people that we love. And 200 years from now, nothing will have changed."
– Sarah Penner
Sarah’s LinksWebsite
Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeI Capture the Castle - Dodie Smith
Bloomsbury Girls - Natalie Jenner
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What’s your favorite pastime (go with us here, we know that lots of us don’t even know the concept of having time for a pastime). Imagine being able to really spend time in your garden, instead of just hoping it will rain or the rabbits don’t eat your bounty. Think about being able to carve out some time to write–really giving some thought and intention to your journal or that spark of a story you’ve been thinking about for awhile. Taking time for what matters to us, aside from doing the things we need to (and yes, that matters to) is like nurturing our soul–it helps us become fuller versions of ourselves, and in the end, those respites make us better at our “real” jobs/routine/duties. That’s why this series is coming in hot–to help us make that step in allowing that outside passion to become a part of our weekly schedule. For the Love of Favorite Pastimes delves into how to identify the things that spark joy and passion in our days, and give ourselves space for them–no matter how small that space may be. And to kick this whole series off, we are thrilled to welcome friends of the show and Jen, Amie and Jolie of the Junk Gypsies. Now, we know you all know who these ladies are and we can’t believe it’s taken so long to get them on the show. But, now that we have them, we will be talking to them about their side passion (and how that turned into a full time business), how they pursued it with nothing more than a pick-up truck and a dream, and how their love for other people’s junk turned into a treasured way of life. * * *
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
"Between college and retirement, there's a mindset that if you don't really like it, you'll just work until retirement anyway. And we were like 'No, we don't want that,' and money was never the most important thing. It was always about quality of life." - Amie Sikes
“We don't have a plan of what's going to happen next year. But we stay open-minded and we don't stay too rigid as we try to bend and flow and be open to opportunities. But we've said no to some that we probably should have said yes to, and yes to some we probably should have said no to.” - Jolie Sikes
“We started doing dressers and side tables and eventually working our own aesthetic into it. So all of a sudden, it's becoming not just a booth where you buy furniture, but your customers are buying into our lifestyle.” - Amie Sikes
“The way we dress, the way we decorate, it's a reflection of you so why would it be boring? You're not boring. So if your home is a reflection of you and your adventures and personality, why would you want everything the same color?” - Jolie Sikes
Junk Gypsies LinksWebsite
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We’re wrapping up our Faith Shakers series this week, and we hope you’ve found it as eye-opening and enlightening as we have to see what people of faith in non-traditional spaces have been doing to make the world a better, more thoughtful place. This episode takes us to yet another unique space where faith and art are being combined to great effect--and it’s through poetry. In case you’re having flashbacks to Shakespearean sonnets you had to study in high school, fear not. We’re going beyond poetry to recognize the beauty in the lyrics we love from our favorite songs, to the way thoughts are constructed by deep thinkers like modern poet Maya Angelou. Language, words, and poetry have always been a tool deeply embedded inside any sort of faith search. So this week, we welcome a poet who also happens to be a theologian, and he's going to walk us through the powerful ways that poetry can bring healing, hope, and reconciliation, Pádraig Ó Tuama is a poet and theologian whose work centers around language, power, conflict, politics, and religion. For several years, he was the leader of Corrymeela Community—Ireland's oldest organization focused on religious reconciliation. He’s also the in-house theologian for the NPR show On Being, with Krista Tippet. Pádraig focuses on conflict resolution who dedicates his life to creating safe spaces for all people within the religious realm. He shows us all that communication, understanding, and landing in the gray space is the way forward and that we can all find our faith space, no matter who we are or where we come from. * * *
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
"Conflict can be the place for brilliant friendships to thrive, and experience electricity for themselves. So sometimes you want to amplify conflict because it's really fruitful, energetic, and creative. But when it gets violent, or destructive, or fruitless, then it needs to be resolved."
– Padraig O Tuama
“I have no interest in whether somebody does or doesn't believe in God. I have no interest in whether we agree. That doesn't interest me at all. I hope we don't, I don't agree with myself, so I don't really agree with anybody else.”
– Padraig O Tuama
"I have a deep interest in wondering, 'do the words we use help us make some kind of sense of the world?' And when there's no sense to be made, do the words we use help give our grief voice?"
– Padraig O Tuama
“So much of the work of peace can be undone by the peace field being partitioned, and segregated, and fighting amongst itself.”
– Padraig O Tuama
“I'm uninterested in neutrality. I am interested in fairness and trustability.”
– Padraig O Tuama
"If you were to gather all the authors of the bible, and put them in a field, I think they would hate each other at times. They would not agree with each other on this word of God, or the question of God. And as a result, I thought, ‘Oh my God, there's room for me.’"
– Padraig O Tuama
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In the past, questioning the spiritual majority was unacceptable. Not only were people of faith expected to fall into line and just accept what was laid out by church leaders, but they were also expected to carry those beliefs throughout their entire lives–even when those tenets no longer aligned with their own values. And if they dropped them? Well, then they likely got dropped by their faith institutions. Fortunately for us all, there have been some quiet trail blazers who have been pushing at the edges of those institutions, asking hard questions, and paving the way for so many of us to shift and develop and grow our faith into living, breathing entities that enhance life–instead of being burdensome. One of those trailblazers joins us this week—the creator and host of the On Being radio show (and podcast) on NPR–Krista Tippet. Krista, like so many of us, grew up entrenched in the church–going three times a week, including Wednesday night suppers (we never turn down a potluck here) and it was her family’s main social life and community. Since beginning her career as a journalist Krista began to see that whenever religion was discussed in public, in the news or on public radio, it had the effect of shutting people's imaginations down. She wanted to show people that you could talk about it, and we could speak about the part of ourselves that we’re referring to when we use the words “religious or spiritual” in a way that allowed for questions and differing opinions. Now, 20 years and hundreds of fascinating interviews later, she has changed the way we talk about faith publicly and allowed space for it to be full of inquisitiveness and beautiful mystery–enabling so many to find a faith that feels like home to them. You’ll want to be sure to listen all the way to the end where Krista reveals the surprising reason she started her show, On Being, and the touching situation that is saving her life right now. * * *
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Thought-Provoking Quotes
“How we do school, how we do medicine, how we do law, how we do politics, how we do church, how we've done religion. They don't make sense for who we are becoming and what we're learning, and how we live, and the way our technologies have upended things.”
– Krista Tippett
"I have developed this absolute delight in mystery, and I also believe mystery is orthodoxy right? We are told there are things we will not understand in this lifetime. And standing before that with reverence and humility is part of being devout. For me, this all works together now and it feels like an adventure."
– Krista Tippett
“We live in this time when faith is evolving, and our traditions are evolving, and our experience of [faith] is evolving. We are evolving.”
– Krista Tippett
Jen: “I thought my parents knew everything because they were parents. And then you get there and go, is this the deal? Is this how everybody is? We're all just playing at it.”
Krista “We're pretending and it's like a one long experiment in humility.”
“Depression, it's so hard to describe, although so many people have been through it now. It's not just not having a sense of hope or joy, or what those might look like in the future. It's not being able to imagine how that ever felt or that it could possibly ever happen again. The bottom fell out of my understanding–all these things I had told myself about my family and the love that I knew growing up, I had to get honest about who I was and how I'd survived and how hard my survival techniques had been on me.”
– Krista Tippett
Krista’s LinksWebsite
Books & Resources Mentioned in This EpisodeWalter Brueggeman - Author, Speaker & Professor
- The Prophetic Imagination - On Being with Walter Bruggeman
Thích Nhât Hanh - Vietnamese Buddhist & Activist
Desmond Tutu - Bishop & Theologian
Mary Oliver - Poet
- I Got Saved By the Beauty of the World - On Being with Mary Oliver
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A dilemma that has gripped the hearts of traditional church leaders and their followers is the trend toward “non-affiliation–” those folks referred to as the “Nones” - who check “none” when asked if they affiliate with any religion or attend any church. Which begs the question–why? Why aren’t people attending church like they used to? And why are people outright leaving the church? Are people still seeking and finding spiritual community somewhere out there? Writer, speaker and co-founder of the Sacred Design Lab, Casper ter Kuile–a graduate of Harvard Divinity School who once identified as an atheist–has done some fascinating research on why people–millennials in particular–are leaving religious institutions in droves; what it is they are searching for, and the surpising places they are finding connection and hope. Caspar published a study titled How We Gather, which discusses this millennial exodus from the church, and how they are transitioning into a more spiritual journey instead of a religious one. For those of us who may have been embedded in traditional church culture for years and now find ourselves at a crossroads because of the politicization of religion, or perhaps because of untenable behavior that occurred behind closed doors at churches for years wondering if we can see ourselves in spiritual community ever again, This conversation with Jen and Caspar reveals the darker reasons for the detachment many have from religion and church, but also insight into a transformation on how we might practice a new “religion” that draws from the best of tradition and the new and inspiring ways people are congregating. * * *
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We’re back with another installment of our Faith Shakers series–talking to people who are doing work in the name of faith in “not so typical places,” using nontraditional ways to bring life and light to people's lives. One of the not so typical places people of faith are congregating more than ever is on social media. So many of us have a love/hate relationship with the medium. Sometimes it gives us the feeling of connection and community–especially during times where connection in person isn’t possible (remember the pandemic lockdown, everyone?). Other times, it can be a source of stress, a place where we’re constantly comparing ourselves to others, an alternate reality of only our “best selves” shown to the world through carefully curated content. Religion, faith and spirituality have their place on social media, and with emerging generations–millennials, Gen X’ers–many have never known life without it. But how do we navigate that quality of instant gratification that social media so readily supplies and find true connection and community that will challenge us, instruct us, and maybe even pastor us in the digital space? This week’s guest has done a lot of work looking at and studying digital communication spaces, and she is here to pass on what she has found so that we can better know the power of digital communication and make social connections that are positive, productive and beneficial. Heather Thompson Day is the host of Viral Jesus, a podcast that discusses these very things. She’s also an associate professor of communication at Andrews University and she’s intent on serving students and women in navigating the digital space toward the best possible end–good self image, finding conviction and even handling disagreements. This isn’t your grandma’s Sunday school class y’all–Heather gives us the tools to find a whole different way of experiencing our faith through our social channels. * * *
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We’re not always comfortable with people who push us past our comfort zones, who ask hard questions, who bring us a different perspective, a different angle–but we get so much from there. As we continue our Faith Shakers series, we’re talking to people who challenge unjust systems and are doing dynamic things in faith spaces and how those things are positively impacting the world. This week’s discussion takes place at a location that many would consider to be a hotbed of divisiveness–where many believe it hard to show love; the center of our political world–Washington D.C. This particular location is important because it's representative of our public discourse, the direction of our country's legislation, policy, and rhetoric. As we explore this highly emotional and volatile topic, we have a guest who has been standing on the frontlines and helps us take it apart compassionately. Lisa Schutlz is the chief of staff for the United States Senate chaplain, Barry Black. For 15 years, she’s been directing all of Chaplain Black's programs and outreach to all senators, their families, and any Senate staff. Jen and Lisa really get into what faith looks like in Washington DC right now. There's some hope baked into this conversation, and Lisa’s very unique perspective on faith in our highly charged political world gives us insight on how we can “brave the wilderness” in this political divisiveness to build bridges that might bring us together in love. * * *
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We’re back with a fourth episode in this powerful series; For the Love of Faith Shakers. As many of us who might have come from a Western evangelical Christian community, we were presented a God that
has a strong patriarchal presence. As we dig into the history of that, we learn that this image has been
crafted, held together and governed by men, as those in power tend to shape the deities as they want to see them. However, history–the same written and oral history that gives us the basis for the Bible–tells us that Jesus likely wasn’t caucasian with blue eyes as we often see him depicted, but that he was Jewish, born and raised in the middle east and more than likely, was a person of color. But the
image of white Jesus took root, as well as God as a white man, his father, also a man, emerging from
The clouds in a fury–ruling with an iron fist. This generally serves one group of people in one gender, but has been so painful and difficult for black and brown and female and LGBTQ+ communities to see
themselves in their creator; and to feel safe with this God, to feel cherished, to feel protected, to feel
included. And so to give us some insight toward moving beyond this narrow, potentially abusive and
oppressive view of God, we're talking with Dr. Christena Cleveland. Dr. Cleveland is a social psychologist, an author and activist who grew up in white evangelical spaces and was a popular speaker and influencer in that world for many years. As a researcher and former professor of Divinity at Duke University, she's done some amazing study around the patriarchal forces in Christianity and other religions, which led to some dismantling of this practice of silencing the feminine side of God's
intimate presence in our life. It wasn’t until she looked at her own history of being “othered” by the
white leaders in her religious background that she began to understand the tension she felt about her
relationship to God as a black woman. This led to a journey of figuring out who God was to her and how we all–no matter our gender or our color–can find ourselves in the Divine.
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Through our entire Faith Shakers series, we’ve been finding the places where faith is vibrant and alive–both outside the church and inside it–and who has been creating safe spaces for faith to be expressed; no matter where you fall on the religious spectrum. For centuries, art has been an integral part of the religious tradition. Some of the most breathtaking art was commissioned by leaders of the church and still adorns the walls, architecture, windows and gardens in some of the most famous religious landmarks all over the world. However, over the last century, the tie to art and religion seems to be tenuous. And those creatives who seek to express their faith or their relationship to God through art don’t always have a conduit to do so in religious spaces. But, like the faith shakers they are, people who connect to God through art are still doing their thing wherever they can–and reconnecting others to God in the process. That’s the story of our guest today– an artist who is actively helping build that connective tissue between art, God and people–the spectacularly talented Morgan Harper Nichols. Morgan is a visual artist and poet who shares stories of grief, anger and solace who found her place of expression, surprisingly, on Instagram (where now nearly 2M followers are tuned in to her artistic offerings). Morgan’s experience in the Christian faith began with roots in a church that was planted by former American slaves and their descendants. It was committed to community and ensuring all voices were heard and was a guide for how she began sharing her work with the world. Morgan recognizes that the word “God” alone has so much baggage for a lot of people because it's been weaponized against them, and she wants to show those traumatized souls that you can actually feel eternal love and the presence of God, and it doesn’t have to be in a church, and it can look warm and welcoming and different than how it may have been presented in the past.
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Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For February 2022, Jen and the club read Brit Bennett’s The Vanishing Half. Brit is a novelist and essayist that has been featured in The New York Times, The New Yorker, The Paris Review, and Jezebel. Her first novel, The Mothers, was a finalist for both the NBCC John Leonard First Novel Prize and the Robert W. Bingham Prize for Debut Fiction. And that brings us to this month’s book, The Vanishing Half. It was an instant New York Times bestseller and took the literary world by storm. It was named one of the top books of 2020, and no big deal, landed on the short list of Barack Obama’s favorite books. It is a story filled with self-growth, familial pain, generational divisions, and more. So join Jen this week as she chats all about The Vanishing Half and its impact with Brit Bennett.
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We’re back with more of our Faith Shakers series–with another person of faith who’s inhabiting something different than what we normally expect or see in faith spaces. When it comes to better understanding the church and how faith exists outside its walls, we must take into consideration voices that haven’t been largely represented in many church traditions. Communities of color were often not considered in the long history of liturgy in the church–and if you’re not familiar with what liturgy is, the technical definition is the “ritual or script for various forms of public worship in churches.” And those scripts weren’t scripts and rituals didn’t take into account the Black experience. That’s where our guest today comes in. Cole Arthur Riley is an author and the creator behind the uber popular Black Liturgies, which has blown up on Instagram over the last couple of years. Cole daily shares the poems and prayers she has created that invite Black dignity, lament, rage, justice, and rest. She and Jen talk about how hard it can be to go against the grain in spaces of faith, and the power of trading acceptance for inner stability. As Cole says, “when you have that inner stability of heart, it gives you courage to step away and say ‘I trust that I am going to find belonging elsewhere.’” * * *
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Happy unscheduled podcast goodness day to you all—we’ve got an amazing bonus episode dropping in just for you! This week we are delighted to welcome author Tara Westover to the show. Her book Educated is on the tip- top of our list for “must-read” books (and was on the New York Times Bestseller list for over 135 weeks in addition to being applauded and celebrated by the New Yorker, O, The Oprah Magazine, and the Obamas. Tara paints a riveting picture of how she grew up in a strict religious survivalist family in the mountains of Idaho, where she didn’t get a birth certificate until she was nine, had no medical records, and didn’t attend school. She tells us what it was like to live in that environment and what compelled her, at 17, to seek education as a means of escape. In 10 years time, Tara earned a PhD in intellectual history and political thought from Cambridge, despite no schooling up to that point. Tara shares how she’s dealing with the aftermath of her trauma and the impact her departure had on her family. As she celebrates the release of Educated in paperback this year, Tara and Jen have a lively discussion about faith, family and therapy––and the transformative power of education.
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It’s an origin story we’ve heard time and time again; a young person trying to figure out who they are as they grow up—in the context of their families, their religious beliefs, and their sexuality. And when all of those areas conflate, there can be fallout and damage—especially when they discover how and who they choose to love isn’t embraced by their faith or family structures. Award winning journalist and writer Jonathan Merritt navigated this particular firestorm in his own life by pursuing a Masters in Divinity and Theology and becoming a journalist who asked hard hitting questions at the intersections of faith and culture. But it would take years for him to sort out who he himself was in the midst of it. Growing up in the family of an evangelical mega-pastor, Jonathan was taught that in regards to gay people, Christians were called to “love the sinner, but hate the sin.” Jonathan didn’t see a lot of love with this practice, just a lot of hate. And it kept him from being open to who he himself might be—a gay man. It took an event that shattered his life into pieces and caused his private process to become very public; which ultimately sent him down the road to really pursue his identity and recalibrate his relationship to his family, his faith, and his purpose. For the first time, he talks about this process, and shares a moment where he and Jen’s paths crossed in a significant way that would also blow up a few sacred cows in Jen’s life and introduced her to an early version of cancel culture, circa 2016. Welcome all, to this first, powerful episode in our Faith Shakers series. * * *
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As we wrap up our Elephant in the Room series, there will be no awkward topics left in our wake. And this week, we’re putting the nail in that coffin (so to speak) and we’re talking about–yes, you guessed it– Death. It’s really hard to think about how to plan for your death when you’re too busy living, not to mention that we don’t even want to really contemplate our demise, but alas, none of us will escape it. And we’ve all heard the horror stories of people who leave this earth with no will or last testament, families put under duress because they don’t know how to manage it all, or the provider of the family passes suddenly, and in an instant, there is no income, no insurance and perhaps unexpected expenses for hospital stays and/or funerals. As stark as it seems, it doesn’t have to be. Planning well for the life that you’ve built so that legacy is created for those who are left behind is something we all can bravely face. And to help us through it is someone who has taken this hard topic and turned it on its face so that it’s actually approachable and less scary to contemplate–we’ve got Abby Schneiderman, the founder of Everplans–to hold our hands through the process. Abby has the answers to the questions we need to take care of In Case You Get Hit By A Bus (also the title of her book). Her company Everplans focuses on providing resources to people as they think about what needs to be done to put the right things into place once we pass on. Some of it is just practical stuff we might not be thinking about—like a list of passwords so getting into accounts doesn’t take an act of congress, developing a way to keep track of medical forms, legal files, and so much more. * * *
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Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For January 2022, Jen and the club read Christie Tate’s Group. Christie is a well-known writer and essayist that has written for amazing publications including The New York Times, The Washington Post, McSweeney’s, and more. Her first novel, Group, was published in 2020 and was named as one of Reese’s Book Club picks along with being a New York Times Bestseller. Group started many conversations about the power therapy offers and how finding your group allows healing and self-discovery. Join Jen and Christie this week as they talk about Christie’s writing process, the power of therapy, and why it’s so important to find the people that help you become whole again. * * *
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Get ready for some real and raw conversation with Jen and two of her most trusted friends about an experience they’ve all shared [which happens to be this week’s elephant in the room as well]. We’re talking about divorce. We’ve all heard the not-so-fun stat that at least half of all marriages in our country end up in divorce. No matter how it happens, who makes the choice, or however long the marriage lasted—it’s traumatizing. Like any elephant in the room, there’s a sense of failure, a sense of shame that keeps the pain and loneliness of a marriage that is on the rails shrouded in silence and solitude, and when the marriage finally crumbles––we’re not only grieving over own dreams and expectations dashed, but wondering how we’ll manage all our people’s disappointment and confusion over it all–including our children’s. And moving forward as a single person after being married has its own challenges as well. How do you tell people in the office your plus one has vacated the position? Who’s your emergency contact now? Do I keep the same last name? How do we even process it all–what we were taught about marriage to begin with, why we stayed when our boundaries were pushed to their limits, and who we can trust as we put our lives back together again? Jen shares more than she ever has before about her own divorce with her good friends Kristen Howerton and Jamie Wright who walked with her through every step of the process. They discuss the trajectory of their marriages, how they each grappled with choosing divorce, and what they are learning in “real time” in the aftermath. And here’s the good news–they all agree that as devastating as it can be, our friends can help us remember who we are in all of it; new dreams can be made, old dreams can change and hope and healing is possible. * * *
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In the tail-end of this series, we really acknowledge some of the bigger elephants in the room we all face each and every day. And this week’s elephant is a big one that likely we’ve all experienced first hand or with those we love. Mental health disorders have been around for as long as we’ve been walking the planet, but bringing them out of the dark has been a fairly recent phenomenon. Even as recently as 3 or 4 decades ago, depression and anxiety were rarely diagnosed as clinical disorders, and in previous generations, people with more profound issues that are now treatable were hidden away from society by their families or locked up in institutions. And while there have been huge strides made in the past or so regarding treatment of now commonly diagnosed mental health issues such as anxiety and depression, there is still reticence to recognize its impact and shame taken on by those who deal with it. The time has come to bring these issues out of the dark as we see the growing impact of unchecked mental illness and where it leads for those who don’t know where or how to get help. One of the people that’s leading the charge toward legitimizing mental health conditions in a bigger way is the founder of To Write Love On Her Arms, Jamie Tworkowski. Jamie founded TWLOHA after guiding a friend through her struggles with depression and suicidal thoughts. He saw the need for guidance in this space and created a world-renowned organization that offers resources and help to those who need it most. Jen and Jamie talk about the painful process of loving our people when they are hurting, how to give our own selves grace when we struggle, and why mental health needs to be treated as seriously as physical health. Content Warning: This episode addresses hard topics including anxiety, depression and suicidal ideation, so it may not be suitable for young listeners or individuals on the path to healing.
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Have you ever heard anyone say they are looking forward to menopause? A rare occurrence, to be sure, as our culture seems obsessed with keeping women “young” on all levels. 50 is the new 30, right? And while women inevitably age, the maturation of women has not classically been held in high esteem in our culture. So no wonder we view the onset of menopause with fear and trepidation; a stark reminder that we’re not what we once were. And as most elephants in the room, this natural transition into what should be a wise, peaceful and well-earned season of our lives is met with disdain; something to be hidden and ignored, or “fixed” with surgery, hormones, and a host of anti-aging products. For those of us who haven’t gotten there yet, we’re treated to the negative aspects played up historically by a patriarchal perspective giving us dread of hot flashes, mood swings, body changes, gray hair and overall loss of youth and vitality. Though this transition is unavoidable for all women, we’re here to look at what it all really means–to those who are currently going through it and to those who inevitably will. We hope you’ll be encouraged to find that there is much to lean into that gives us hope for a productive and meaningful second half of life. We’ve got a wonderfully educated and compassionate leader in this space–she’s not only been through it, but her work focuses on de-stigmatizing the whole topic for women and taking to task the historical negativity around a woman’s aging process. Cheryl Bridges Johns is an author, she's an academic lecturer, she's a leader. She advocates for women's full empowerment, care for all God's creation, and the renewal of the church to boot. She’s written a compelling book about navigating the second half of life as a woman–it’s called Seven Transforming Gifts of Menopause, which gets to the heart of this change by helping women find their voice and speak openly about their journey. Cheryl wants women to see their menopausal journey as a time in which we can become more and more of ourselves. She believes if society can embrace this natural occurrence, women can flourish in the second half of their lives, which can only lead to the flourishing of society as a whole. * * * Thank you to our sponsors!
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Elephants in the room are historically hard to acknowledge and easy to ignore. And though it seems like the conversation about racial divides in our country is getting more attention than it ever has, there are still some of us that are unable to see that there’s a problem in their own ranks. Sometimes, it’s not even that we don’t recognize it looking from the outside in–but a lack of being involved toward change or acknowledging the concept that the white community has historically had a giant leg up on thriving in our country today contributes to the acceptance of the status quo and to the systemic issues that still persist in our country today. White privilege is simply this: because of the color of your skin, there’s an added disadvantage or advantage as to how easy it will be to navigate our world today. Not whether you worked hard or went to college or did everything else right. Our intention for this episode (as with all our elephants in the room) is not to point fingers or cause shame. It’s simply to shine a light on a tough topic and ask ourselves the question as it applies to those of us who are white: where is it that we have privilege and can we have the humility to examine that deeply? We have some thoughtful leaders to guide us through this conversation–Reggie Dabbs and John Driver. These lifelong friends are the authors of the book, Not So Black and White, which details race in America from a Christian perspective. Reggie is one of the most sought-after public school speakers in the US and has been for more than 20 years, while John is a writer, minister, and former history teacher. Their book came out of a vulnerable conversation years into their friendship about what it is like for Reggie to live as a black man in America. Jen, Reggie and John get into why many of us, as part of faith communities, didn’t think racial divides were ours to contend with. We’ll talk about the unique things that black parents have to teach their kids that white parents don’t, and we’ll look at culturally wise responses to the challenges of racism in hopes that we can all make a difference in this fight for equality. * * Thank you to our sponsors! BYJU | Get your first class free at byjus.com/forthelove. Me Course |* Let’s learn together. Register at mecourse.org and use the code FORTHELOVE for $10 off.
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Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For December 2021, Jen and the club read Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie’s “Americanah.” Chimamanda is an acclaimed Nigerian writer that takes the experiences she has lived through and seen occur to guide her writing and share new thoughts and ideas with her readers. She published Americanah in 2013 and the novel became an immediate bestseller. It won the U.S. National Book Critics Circle Award and started conversations on race, microaggressions, immigration, and more. Join Jen and Chimamanda this week as they talk through Chimamanda’s writing process, the way race played a role in the creation of this book, and her hopes for all of her readers.
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We’re back with another elephant in the room–one that likely has affected us all at one time or another either personally or within our circle of friends, family, associates. Society’s struggle with sexual brokenness–whether that’s pornagraphy use, paying for sex, or engaging in infidelity–is a real issue, and it impacts us in many ways, sometimes to the point of being devastating. But it’s time to bring this problem out of the dark and begin to look at the roots of where sexual brokenness begins. Our guest this week has made finding a way to wholeness in the aftermath of sexual brokenness his life’s work. Jay Stringer is a therapist, author and speaker who has done countless hours of research with over 3800 people to offer practical guidance rooted in clicnal evidence that is helping people discover their way to sexual wholeness. If you grew up in a conservative environment, you might remember being a part of the purity culture movement—a set of beliefs that Jay believes instills an unhealthy fear of sexuality among its followers. Jay and Jen discuss the harms there, and how this movement is still negatively impacting the sexual lives of the adults who were taught this set of beliefs in their teenage years. They also discuss a way forward from the tangle of shame sexual brokenness leaves in its wake and how there can be forgiveness and understanding for those who have engaged in it or have been hurt deeply by it. Jay believes that when we pay attention to our unwanted sexual desires and identify the unique reasons that drive them, the road to healing is revealed. This conversation helps us see light at the end of this brokenness, and those who are willing to unpack their stories can live a new story, one filled with hope and a future.
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When it comes to addressing the elephant in the room, many of us really want to shy away and say “what elephant?” and whisk whatever the pesky and uncomfortable topic is under the rug. But, in the grand scheme of this life, addressing hard topics and working through difficult conversations is so important as we try to move forward and create a brighter and more accepting world for all people. One elephant we’ve tackled many times here on For the Love (as gently as possible–no elephants are ever harmed in the making of this show) relates to shining the light on the issues and struggles our LGBTQ+ friends & loved ones have faced. And while it is 2022, it remains unbelievable to us that we are still fighting for equality for our LBGTQ+ peers. Yet, in our culture, in our churches, that struggle is real. And what, as sensible, compassionate people and perhaps even as Christians, should our response to our LGBTQ+ counterparts be? Celeste Lecesne, one of the founders of The Trevor Project, is our thoughtful guide in this episode where we talk about that very thing. The Trevor Project started as a crisis hotline specifically for the queer community, offering them comfort and solace when they had nowhere else to turn. Celeste has fought for years to create a brighter tomorrow for LGBTQ+ youth, and we’re pleased to share this conversation with Jen to tell the story and shed some light on how we can all respond and understand the individual journeys of people in this community. Celeste uncovers some hidden parts of the LGBTQ+ history, tells us how young queer kids are coping today, and why acceptance and love can be a path forward for us all.
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Hey community, it’s a new year and it’s time to get uncomfortable. We have all spent the last few weeks relaxing and indulging and prepping for what we hope is a good year. If your families or friend groups are anything like ours, maybe some hard topics popped up over the holidays. That aunt that can’t help talking about politics, or maybe passively aggressive grandmother’s racist comments caused a stir. Well instead of stuffing our faces full of another dinner roll and changing the topic, we’ve decided to embrace these topics head on—yes, we’re tackling those Elephants in the Room for a whole series. And for our first topic in the series we’re dealing with something that’s difficult when it’s happening and sometimes awkward for those around it–plus it affects every single one of us who has been on the planet for any significant amount of time. It’s grief. And you may say, “well grief is not something we should shy away from,” yet many of us do–or we don’t recognize that we are grieving, or we don’t know how to walk with or give space to someone who is grieving (or even carve out that care and space for ourselves). We have some good guides in this conversation; Sal and Im are the delightful hosts of The Good Mourning podcast, a show that talks about ways to work through grief and accept the changes grief brings into someone's life. Brought together by the early deaths of their mothers in close proximity, Sal and Im began to examine how they both looked at grief and came away with all kinds of real life examples of how we tend to defer grief and push it down, how we shame ourselves for grieving too much or too long, and how we try to structure our grief to play out in a linear way (when grief is just gonna do what it’s gonna do). They encourage us that it is possible to live fully while grieving, giving ourselves space and grace as individuals to let it run its needed course in our very own timing.
Series Description
Here at For the Love, we’re not afraid to take on topics that we might not all agree on. In that, we like to open our show for dialogue from experts in all fields, whether the subject matter is entertaining, educational or uncomfortable. Because we still live in a culture that pushes and hides some emotionally charged ideas and discussions for the sake of keeping people comfortable, we’re blowing that all up and forging ahead with the For the Love of the Elephant in the Room series. Topics ranging from death, menopause, racism, and sexual brokenness will be at the forefront along with expert guests/real life people who compassionately, thoughtfully and wisely guide us through every stigmatized piece of these situations. So, leave your ear plugs at home, and get ready to address the elephants in the room.
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Well, community, 2021 is about to close the curtain. So many of us had the highest of hopes after 2020. And for some, this year gave them exactly what they needed. For others, it was a year of sorrow and grief and hard days. But, here’s the thing, we all made it. We made it through the hard days and the tears and ups and downs. We lived. We learned. We grew closer to who we are meant to be in this life. And isn’t that something to celebrate? Join us this week as Jen divulges all that 2021 had in store for her. From guiding her kids through life after divorce, to rediscovering who she is and what dreams she has for herself. And here’s the thing. It wasn’t perfect, no year ever is. But, it allowed Jen and the rest of this community to find life. To find the knowledge that we deserve love and happiness and unrelenting joy. And after all of that, we have one wish for you going into 2022. We wish you happiness. Happiness that shines bright each day, and brighter when you find yourself at the bottom of the rope. So, as we say goodbye to this year, we wish you the happiest of New Years and cannot wait to serve you in 2022.
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2021 is winding down. For some of us it flew by, for others it was the longest year of our lives. We might have experienced pure love, we might have learned new things and explored new places, and perhaps we grew closer to becoming the people we are meant to be. But some of us grieved. We lost loved ones, and dreams we once had. We dealt with suffering and sadness. But you know what we all did together? We made it. We lived. We found life and joy and hope and sadness and love. And in that, we have the power to spread that hope of “making it” to others who are walking alongside us in similarly complex journeys. As we link hands to face another year, we asked a close friend of the show and one of our most cherished leaders to bless us with a year-end benediction; Bishop Michael Curry. Bishop Curry beautifully wraps up the spirit of this tumultuous year and gives us something to hope for in the coming new year, while speaking a blessing of light and life over us all.
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During the busyness of the holiday season, when does one find time for comfort and joy? Between planning all the parties, baking all the cookies, and wrapping all the gifts, has it been a minute since you’ve been able to enjoy the festivity of the season? Well, if you’re like us over here at For the Love, you might have to find the time to squeeze in a quick injection of the holiday spirit by sitting down for a Hallmark Holiday movie! In 90 tight minutes, you can cry over the heartwarming story of a firefighter and a vet who find nine kittens and try to find them homes for Christmas (and also find love in the process). Or maybe you need something a little more kooky like two wacky sisters who switch lives during Christmas only to find that maybe their lives aren’t so bad after all (yes, both real Hallmark Christmas movie plots!). Hallmark movies are a guilty pleasure for some, and a downright obsession for others (and if you can’t stand them, there’s something here for you too). Whatever category you’re in, you’ll love the return of our guests Bran, Dan & Panda from Deck the Hallmark! The boys are back and filled with important holiday advice like how to host the perfect holiday gathering for a Hallmark movie marathon and their recommended song list to make that gathering 5 star quality! Additionally, the trio and Jen storyboard the plot for a Hallmark Christmas movie loosely based on Jen’s summer trip to Maine, except set during Christmas with Candace Cameron Bure playing Jen and a lot of wild story embellishments involving lobsters and crusty sailors (we’re really hoping the Hallmark people are listening so we can get this one made).
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It is the season of giving, friends, and what better gift could you get from us than a super special bonus episode of your favorite show? This cozy holiday bonus episode features TV host, model and actress, Vanessa Lachey! Vanessa just brought her first book to the world; Life From Scratch: Family Traditions That Start With You, and it’s chock full of fun and practical tips that we’re talking about on the show to make each season and the moments in them special and memorable. Jen and Vanessa discuss why it’s important (and fun!) to create and carry on traditions each year, why those traditions help strengthen our connections to the people we love, and how to give your girlfriends gifts they actually want.
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Jingle those sleigh bells and break out the eggnog--Trisha Yearwood has arrived at the For the Love Podcast for our Comfort and Joy series!! If you’ve been here for any amount of time, you know that Jen Hatmaker is Trisha’s #1 fan. Women ruled the day for country music in the 90’s, and Trisha was among the queens. If you were coming of age in that era like Jen did (and even if you didn’t) it was hard to miss the great ladies of 90’s country (Shania, Martina, Wynonna, and more.) who exemplified the important seasons of our lives (falling in love, raising kids, finding our voices) and sang songs that were anthems of that decade. Trisha’s music lives on, and she has been bringing another facet of herself to the world via The Food Network with her own show about southern cooking. And what brings more comfort and joy than music and food? Not much! Trisha and Jen are talking about it all today: Trisha’s journey to country music fame, cooking and hosting on The Food Network (and a peek at her new cookbook!), and singing Christmas songs with her favorite people (including her hubby Garth Brooks).
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Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For November 2021, Jen and the club read David Sedaris’s “The Best of Me.” When it comes to satire and witty personal narratives, no one does it better than David, so expect this discussion to be full of the same as well. His book, “The Best of Me” is a collection of essays detailing his life through adolescence and adulthood. Not only is it riddled with ridiculous anecdotes and hilarious stories, it also gives us a tender look at some of the harder parts of life many of us deal with. Jen and David discuss how it can be so life-giving to share our journeys (no matter how outrageous) with candor and authenticity--and if we can laugh at ourselves along the way, then all the better.
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Happy Holidays, friends! Welcome to the most magical time of year. It’s filled with fairy lights and Christmas cookies and good food and friends. It’s the epitome of comfort and joy—and that’s why we are thrilled to be kicking off our 2021 holiday series, For the Love of Comfort & Joy with you today. We have it all in this series, from cookbooks to Hallmark movies. We’re kicking it all off this week with conversation with a self taught expert in hosting and learning how to serve others well with Abby Turner. Abby wrote The Living Table where she offers readers and home cooks simple recipes that allow for more time spent with their people. And isn’t that what we are all looking for during the busy holiday season? Jen and Abby rediscover what the table actually means to a family, how to find God wherever you are this season, and why it’s so important to find time to love our people well.
SERIES Description
Welcome to the 2021 holiday season! As we come to the end of the year, we wanted to offer you two things that are vital to our peace this season: comfort and joy. That’s why we are thrilled to bring you For the Love of Comfort and Joy. This series has it all. From learning how to serve and host others so they feel loved, to finding the hilarity in the Hallmark moments of life, we want to give you something to hold onto during the chaotic season of holiday parties, family arguments about politics and last minute shopping.. Some guests will make you laugh until you cry, while others will just make you cry. It’s a mixed bag of goodies, just like the presents under the tree—and we can’t imagine a better way to close out the year. So grab your peppermint mocha and pop on your Santa hat as we enter into the most wonderful time of year!
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As we come to a close on our For the Love of You series, we wanted to take some time to reflect on all that we have learned. We saw how food impacts our lives in more ways than just providing calories. We learned how self-care exists in all facets of life, from mental health and therapy to leaning on others during your journey to motherhood. And to wrap it all up, we wanted to take a look at what it means to be embodied and how to work with our bodies to overcome trauma and find peace and healing. These are some deep waters to tread through, and to help us with it all, we are thrilled to welcome Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk to the conversation.. Dr. Van Der Kolk is a psychiatrist, author, researcher and author of the book The Body Keeps The Score. Dr. Van Der Kolk has spent most of his career researching the causes of post traumatic stress, and is continuing to come away with groundbreaking discoveries about the power of our bodies to protect and shield us. But sometimes that good function of the body can thwart us if we’ve been hurt or abused—walling us off from being able to fully experience life to the fullest. Dr. Van Der Kolk brings us to the intersection of embodiment, mental well-being, and neuroscience and examines how we can understand our bodies’ response to trauma so we can embrace our healing.
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When it comes to healing, the path is not linear. Whether you are are a survivor of sexual assault or have experienced trauma in your life, you are worthy to pursue wholeness and healing. It can be a hard road to find the right community to heal with, especially if you identify as part of a marginalized community. Prevalently, therapy and therapeutic services cater largely to one group, evidenced by the fact that approximately 86% of psychologists are white, and less than 2% of American Psychological Association members are African American, and for people in the LGBTQ+ community, the offerings are similarly limited. Our guest for this episode in the For the Love of You series believes that healing and help for trauma and abuse is for everyone. Jimanekia Eborn is a queer trauma media consultant, comprehensive sex educator, and a sexual assault and trauma expert. Her work lands at the intersection of healing and community for marginalized folks. Not only that, Jimanekia is a survivor herself, and talks about her experience with vulnerability and honesty, creating a welcoming and comforting atmosphere for her clients. Jen and Jimanekia talk through the boundaries that exist for marginalized communities as they seek out mental health care, how to help those closest to you after traumatic experiences, and why caring for ourselves allows us to care for others better.
Content Warning: A quick note for you listeners. This episode touches on sexual assault and sexual trauma, so it may not be suitable for young audiences or survivors on the path to healing.
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Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For October 2021, Jen and the club read Lucy Foley’s The Guest List. Lucy Foley is a former fiction editor who used her passion for literature to become a master of who-dunnit mystery books. Her first book, The Book of Lost and Found, cemented her place as a modern mystery writer and since then there has been no turning back. The Invitation and The Hunting Party brewed up enough chatter for us to read The Guest List as this month’s book club choice. The classic elements and mysterious island create the perfect setting for readers to crack the case, but let’s be honest, most of us didn’t see the ending coming. So join us as Jen and Lucy chat about what it’s like to create complex characters, how world events morph into plot points, and why the classic mystery will always hold a special place in reader’s hearts. * * *
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The For the Love of You series, is offering us so much when it comes to embracing self-care routines and finding new ways to love and appreciate all our bodies do for us on a daily basis. And guess what wonderful element of self-care we are tackling this week? FOOD. Not only does it nourish us and keep us functioning, but it can create community, connection, and love in our world. Our relationship with food is key in enabling us to find joy in caring for our bodies, and in turn allow us to love those around us better. We couldn’t have a better guide to walk us through all the ways food impacts our self-care and care of others than Queer Eye’s Antoni Porowski! Antoni is the food expert of this generation’s Queer Eye and has just authored a new book Antoni: Let’s Do Dinner as he teaches people around the country how to love food and use it as a tool to improve their lives, not just as a way to stay alive. Jen and Antoni also take a look back at his journey into the Fab Five, while discussing his personal relationship and understanding of food, and how food can be used as a point of better living, bonding and caring for others.
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Jingle bells, jingle bells, jingle all the way to the 2021 gift guide! This is the EARLIEST we have ever had the gift guide ready for you and that’s a good thing because... shipping in 2021. Am I right? We’re helping you get all your favorite people the most amazing gifts this holiday season. A personal note from Jen: This is the 5th year I've curated my favorite things as a wonderful shopping list for you! (Psst... We’ve taken notes so you don’t have to! Head over to jenhatmaker.com for a one-stop-shop of all the companies, products, and offers mentioned on the show.) There are two non-negotiables that I have when creating this guide. First, I really love these products. Second, I feature brands I love that also give back, so we can do the most good with the dollars we're already going to spend (and PS: so many of these companies are women-owned!). My super-cool daughter, Sydney, joined me as co-host this year. Cozy up with some tea (or wine) to watch us gush over incredible companies and amazing products. You’ll see gifts for sisters, brothers, moms, dads, uncles, and of course, yourself. As always, each brand has a special offer just for you — your code is always FORTHELOVE for savings — so you can stock up on great gifts and also keep your wallet. Now, get ready for Christmas shopping!
We’re keeping the good vibes about body positivity going this week, drafting off our amazing episode with Dr. Hillary McBride last week about embodiment and moving into a conversation that asks us to go deeper with questions like: How do you feel about your body? How are you describing your body? The answers tell us whether we’re looking at our bodies as an outsider, or if we’ve been hiding our bodies because of long held body shame and self-objectification. And that’s what this For the Love You series is all about--to show each of us the power that lives within us, and in this particular episode, we’re encouraging all women to unwind themselves from the cultural and self made prison we’ve made of our bodies, so that we can take the steps to, as our guests so poignantly put it: “treat our bodies as an instrument for our use, for our experience, for our pleasure and joy--and not as an ornament for everybody else.” This conversation with authors Lexie and Lindsay Kite brings some new wrinkles (yes, we’re embracing that word!) to the way we think about body shame, how deeply ingrained it is from sources we might not even imagine (mothers, grandmothers, friends) and how money is the bottom line as to why we’re errantly taught to objectify ourselves so that we’ll buy into the solutions, ideas, and products that will fix our many flaws. These sisters are the authors of the book, More than a Body, and are changing the game when it comes to self-love for women who have been inundated with harmful messages about what beauty is all about.
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Continuing in our For the Love of You series we are taking a look at all the ways that we care for ourselves. And this isn’t just about spa days, pedicures, and me-time (although, we are fans of those things too). We’re doing a deep dive into some soul-care, in addition to more conventional looks at mind care and body care. And this week’s episode addresses a really specific season of self-care for women as they journey into motherhood. Whether it’s your first or 5th time going through pregnancy, you know (or will find out) it is quite the time for our brains and our bodies. A swirl of hormones, and a resetting of priorities, in addition to the physical and spiritual aspects of pregnancy and birth. Whether you’ve experienced pregnancy or not, we’ll all benefit from leaning into this beautiful well of wisdom that we have through Latham Thomas, as she guides us through to finding the power we have within to heal and thrive. Latham is the the founder of Mama Glow, a birth doula, and entrepreneur focused on bridging the gap between optimal wellness and spiritual growth. Her message to future moms and women is this: your power already lives inside of you, and it’s your job to unleash it into the world.
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Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For September 2021, Jen and the club read Brene’ Brown’s Daring Greatly. Most of us know and love Brene and all her work, but just in case you’re new to her, here’s the rundown. Brene is a research professor at the University of Houston where she holds the Huffington Foundation Endowed Chair. She is also a visiting professor in management at The University of Texas at Austin McCombs School of Business. She has spent years and years and years studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy. So much of our community has been informed by Brene’s work, and we’re taking this month’s book club spot to dissect Daring Greatly with an actual therapist to discuss key points and concepts of the book that we can all apply to our lives. We are thrilled to welcome a friend to Jen and our podcast community, therapist Kristen Howerton to discuss vulnerability and Brene’s book, Daring Greatly. Kristen and Jen chat about what it’s like to be vulnerable, how to identify toxic relationships, and why it’s so important to care for ourselves first. Because we all know that it’s impossible to pour from an empty cup, but in the busyness of life, we often forget that our hearts and minds need care too. * * *
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This series, For the Love of You, is allowing us to open a door to ourselves, encouraging us to show ourselves kindness and truly embrace how we can care for ourselves In a world that has told us, specifically women, that we should put ourselves last. And when it comes to our bodies, we’ve had a host of misinformation that tells us that our bodies are to be restricted and that we should disconnect from what our bodies need, because our needs will be at cross purposes with what our culture wants.
Dr. Hillary McBride is here to debunk all that mess and wants us to lovingly reunite with our bodies because our bodies are not just a hindrance that gets in the way of us being loved. She emphasizes the integral connection between our bodies and who we are--and that we should show our total person respect, because at the end of the day--our bodies are keeping us alive. Our bodies are where pleasure, joy, connection, experiences of fulfillment, and desire happens. The truth is, the body is always working for our good--and she tells us all the ways it is--even the ways we might feelour body is betraying us. Hillary is one of our best people--she’s been on the podcast multiple times and has spoken into so many moments for us over the last few years--dipping in right when we needed her. A psychologist and researcher, her work lands at the intersection of spirituality and mental health, trauma, body image and eating disorders, embodiment, and feminist psychology. And to top it off, Hillary is also inspiring generations of women to look at their bodies as She, not just the “thing” that carries their brain around each day. Hillary uncovers the truth that we haven’t been supported to have a dialogue with ourselves that is compassionate and that so often our bodies are seen as “a problem” or a root for our distrust. She gently reminds us: our various physiological responses to life are NOT proof that our bodies are bad and can't be trusted--it’s really our bodies just saying, "Please let me care for you. Please trust me.”
Content warning: This episode talks about hard topics including eating disorders and sex. Listener discretion is advised, content may not be suitable for young audiences.
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Hey listener—we’re glad you’re here. Because you listen to this show, we’re gonna take a guess that this podcast might be a little respite for you from the busy-ness of life. A place to find community and shared experiences. Some much needed YOU time. So, because we care about you, we at For the Love want to promote that time and take it to the next level with some ideas and thoughts about how to take better care of YOU (and not just with the time you steal away while driving or cleaning while listening to this show). So to get you started on some much needed ways to take care of you, we’re proud to be kicking off a brand new series, For the Love of YOU. And the first thing we’re looking at is how food factors into how we take care of ourselves. Not diets, not regimens, not meal planning--but simply a call to take a closer look at what we put into our bodies and how it impacts each of us uniquely. Danielle Walker, the wonderful author and self trained chef who has graced the ears of our listeners in our first FTL of Food series, has first hand experience with living in a body that can be vulnerable to certain kinds of foods and the ingredients in them. After being diagnosed with Ulcerative Colitis, Danielle faced confusion and wildly varying advice about how to treat the problem, but by eventually removing foods and adding others to see where the issues were, she was able to see her body begin to heal. Her example (though unique to her—every body is different) has impacted thousands of people who’ve struggled with their own conditions to take the time to find out how certain foods impact their wellness. And in case you think that this is a lesson in deprivation or sad, flavorless diets, Danielle has done the good work of experimenting with recipes that remove some of the problem ingredients for many people while retaining the flavors and satisfaction we get from eating the things we like.
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When it comes to talking about the future and the bright stars we see ahead, that’s something we are always going to approve of here at For the Love. And we knew that in order to wrap-up our For the Love of Broadway series, we needed to talk to one of the up and coming stars of the stage. So as we get ready to close the curtains on this series, you’ll love hearing from the delightful Vince Ermita. Vince is just 11 years old and made his Broadway debut as Young Simba in The Lion King. I mean, can you imagine the thrill of reaching such a pinnacle role at just 11 years old?. Vince gives us an inside look as he balances being a nearly teenager, school and a demanding theater job, the joys and pains of theater costumes, and what he hopes his future looks like.
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Description
When it comes to living out life-long dreams, that’s always a goal we support here at For the Love. And do you know what we love just as much as seeing someone succeed? Broadway! We’re back with another week of the For the Love of Broadway series just as the whole country is celebrating the return of Broadway’s best. This week we take another peek behind the curtain to find out what it’s like to go through audition after audition, wondering if you’ll ever “make it there,” and then have it all end up with nabbing the role you’d always dreamed of as a child. That scenario happened to Brandon McCall, aka, Simba in The Lion King, and his story just makes our hearts full as to what is possible if we run toward a dream. Brandon takes Jen behind the scenes and shows us what it’s like to audition for Disney, what it looks like to be “show ready” for audition after audition, and finally the thrill of playing a role he’s dreamed of since watching his first Broadway show as a kid. Brandon shows us that dreams really can come true--right under the neon lights of Broadway.
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Pull your tickets out and silence your cell phones as we dive into another episode in our For the Love of Broadway series! As live theater comes back into all of our lives, we’re going straight to the heart and soul behind it. The actors, the writers, the composers—all work together to put these fantastic and magical shows out day in and day out, and we want to know what inspires them to do it. Maybe it’s always been their dream to hit the big stage, maybe it’s something they stumbled upon. Or perhaps, like our guest today, singing became a passion when he was charged with singing at the family business. As a young boy, Christopher Jackson began performing at services for his family’s funeral home business. And while that’s not the most jolly kick-off to his career, it gave him the confidence and courage to head to New York at 17 and star on Broadway by 22. Oh and also—no big deal—he’s been in some small productions like The Lion King, In The Heights and Hamilton. This week, Jen and Christopher talk about that dream that starts as a tiny seed and carries you to a destination you could have never imagined, those magical and life changing moments (like being a black man playing President George Washington performing in The White House for the first black president, Barack Obama) and what it means to widen your world to other mediums, all while trying to stay grounded outside of the roles being played to fully embrace your identity apart from the lights of Broadway.
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Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For August 2021, Jen and the club read Elizabeth Acevedo’s Clap When You Land. Elizabeth Acevedo is an internationally known New York Times bestselling author. Her writing is inspired by her Afro-Dominican roots, along with her upbringing in New York City as the daughter of Dominican immigrants. She is formally trained in performing arts, but later received her MFA in creative writing. And here's the thing, she writes novels in prose. Her book Clap When You Land shows readers that relationships are anything but easy. Familial relationships, relationships to the landscape, the relationship you have with yourself. This book dives deep into what it means to know and be known, and how our circumstances directly impact that. Jen and Elizabeth chat about what it’s like to write a book in prose, how young people teach adults, and why it’s so important to develop strong connections with the women in your life. * * *
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This week we are rolling back the curtains and kicking off a brand new series, For the Love of Broadway...so dim the lights and get ready for the absolute blast we are going to have here! To kick off this series we are welcoming two of Broadway’s best—Mary Kate Morrissey and Ginna Claire Mason, aka, Elphaba and Glinda. You know, the witches from Wicked? Yeah, those ones. Mary Kate and Ginna Claire, affectionately referred to as MK and GC, are going to take us through their journeys to the big stage and bright lights. We also get to learn all about the business, Double Name Witches, they started last year teaching the next generation of performers and how that work has enhanced their own abilities on stage and off. But more than that, we get to learn about the connection these real-life besties share and how that has saved them both many times. Jen, MK, and GC chat about the anxiety of live performance, why live theater is more important now than ever before, and how we can all get ready to experience our first show again after the Great Pause.
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Happy unscheduled podcast goodness day to you all—we’ve got a super fun bonus episode for you! This week we are welcoming the one and only Antoni Porowski to the show. You know and love him from the delightfully heartwarming Netflix show, Queer Eye, where he works as the food and wine expert, teaching people the power of caring for all bodies—inside and out. Not one to just have a day job, Antoni is also in the throes of releasing his most recent cookbook, Antoni: Let’s Do Dinner. This book features easy peasy recipes that will leave you feeling satisfied and ready to take on each day. Jen and Antoni chat about their favorite kitchen tools, the time it takes to put recipes together, and why sharing food is a form of self love for yourself and others.
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It’s so hard but so true: growth often comes from the most painful parts of life. An untreatable diagnosis, a painful divorce, the loss of savings that took a lifetime to build—when the script we write for ourselves is ripped apart by the unthinkable, we’re forced to rethink everything, like who we are, what we value, and where we spend our time. Moving the boulders of our identity requires us to push ourselves in ways we never asked for. And as frustrating as it can be, the pushing brings us closer to the person we’re meant to be—that’s what our guest, poet Maggie Smith, reminds us. Jen reveals how she unexpectedly found and fell in love with Maggie’s work (spoiler alert: it’s Shauna Niequist’s fault!). Maggie and Jen talk about what it was like for each of them to weather the loss that comes from divorce, and the fresh hope weaving its way through their rebuilding. Maggie reveals that more than ever, she feels more confident than ever to take on whatever life throws at her, even when her script is flipped.
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Taking a leap in the face of uncertainty is scary. It’s hard to envision a life in which you are living your dream, especially if your current reality is not living up to your expectations. But, what if it all works out? What if everything you are dreaming of comes to fruition and you get the life you want? Wouldn’t that be worth the leap? That’s just another facet of flipping the script of our lives and we are so inspired by women across the world that take that leap into the unknown with the hope that things are better on the other side. This week, we are talking to one of those “leapers” who started a cosmetics company in her living room, who kept getting told “no” by the big beauty brands of the world, and persevered despite personal and professional rejection to build a multi-billion dollar cosmetics company with a heart. Jamie Kern Lima is the founder of the internationally known beauty brand, IT Cosmetics. As Jamie struggled to believe in herself enough to keep her dream alive--even after she was told she didn’t have the “look” to be selling cosmetics--she decided to trust her gut enough to let it guide her through the sea of rejections she received while trying to grow her business. And through this journey, she also realized that the beauty industry needed to change--and that no one should be showing women an unrealistic, unattainable “look” and making them feel less than if they didn’t fit the mold. Jamie would come out winning by standing her ground to show “real women” (including herself) of all shapes, sizes, skin types and colors as part of her brand, and her determination to make every woman feel beautiful and to trust themselves to know what is best for their lives is her mission and message to this very day.
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Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For July 2021, Jen and the club read Gabrielle Hamilton’s Blood, Bones & Butter. Gabrielle Hamilton is a chef, author, and restaurant owner based in New York. Her roots in food and cooking were heavily influenced by her mother’s French origins, and created a unique relationship between Gabrielle and food. She was used to foraging and using everything from their garden, never letting anything go to waste. This understanding of food translated into a career as Gabrielle made her way into professional kitchens. She is a James Beard award winner, the winner of the 2018 Outstanding Chef award, and whipped her way right into the literary space. Jen and Gabrielle dive into the impact food has in relationships, the troubles found during parenting, and what comes next for her restaurant after a forced shut down. * * *
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Fresh starts, new beginnings, and renovations. As we continue to dive into all the ways we can “flip the script” in our lives, we’re taking on one that is pretty literal—refreshing and renovating homes. Whether it’s something small like shuffling the furniture around in our living room to give a new perspective, or adding a new color of paint to our walls, we can all attest to how good it feels to freshen a space. Taking it to the next level—renovating a space—by maybe taking a room or a whole house to the studs and building something new can be daunting, but the rewards can be more than just the joy of something different, and can translate to practical things like more functional space, modernization, and even adding more value to your home. Our guest this week knows a thing or two about building something beautiful and new to refresh and restore a living space—we have none other than HGTV’s Mina Hawk from the show Good Bones. Mina decided to flip the script in her own life, and with no construction experience, taught herself the craft and embarked on the task of flipping homes that were once considered lost causes and turning them into places for their owners to live and grow for years to come. Mina continues to forge into new areas in —writing her very children’s book Built Together. This story gives kids a fresh look at what family actually means—showing readers that families are just as different as homes. Jen and Mina are diving into all of this and more and they talk about what home and community actually mean, and why creating close familial and neighborly bonds is so important.
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Continuing on in our Flip the Script series, we look at not only the things that happen “to us,” but the things that happen “by us.” Our guest this week epitomizes a life that includes those things we weren’t expecting that alter our course (for her, it was a heart defect diagnosis) and those things that are very intentional, like new efforts to find balance and taking responsibility for steering our own lives. Singer/songwriter Amy Grant is no stranger to our show, or to our community. She’s that friend so many of us have walked with via her music, through her writing, through just the way she negotiates the world in a way that is present, centered and grateful. Amy has walked through her share of flipped scripts—including the end of her first marriage (she and Jen share their common experiences there), the aging of her parents and the final lessons they taught her, and most recently, the heart surgery she would have never expected to happen—in 2020 no less—right in the heart of the COVID-19 pandemic. Amy and Jen talk about what happens during seasons of loss and upheaval and how they listen to their bodies, their hearts and trusted friends’ voices to empower themselves to steer out of the storm. In it all, Amy believes that “the next opportunity, the next enlightenment, the next ‘everything’ for all of us is within reach.”
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When it comes to learning to dream again after a big change, it can be hard to think outside the bounds of where we have always lived. It’s hard to imagine a world that looks different from the one we are so accustomed to. So, when it comes the time to start thinking big and looking outside the box we place ourselves in, where do we start? Oftentimes, flipping the script happens internally, and then branches out from there. This week we will be looking at the ways in which faith guides us through life, and how in many cases, growing in your own faith is the pathway to connecting with others. Malynda Hale is an author, singer, and podcast host that lives at the intersection of faith, justice, and inclusion. She believes that everything starts with a conversation—whether that’s diving into what defunding the police actually means, or looking at the ways we are called to include all people, not just those that look like us. She focuses on dismantling the negative perceptions toward black people held by many in America, and how her work is dedicated towards creating a more welcoming and safe world for everyone. Jen and Malynda will dive into Malynda’s faith journey, her calling to teach and encourage others, and why it’s so important to stand up for what and who you believe in.
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Kicking off our Flipping the Script series is none other than our venerable host, Jen herself. In this solo episode, Jen transparently talks about the changes in her life in the last year--the days she thought she wouldn’t survive, and the days where she could finally see hope dancing around the corner. Jen walks us through key times throughout all of her life when she flipped the script of her existence in several areas; spiritually, as a woman, and in her view of her body. She shares how we all are inclined to resist change and how easy it is to adhere to the script that is handed to us, and how we’ll even create our own script of lies to ourselves to stay and be accepted within certain structures. In the end, Jen acknowledges that flipping the script can create a disturbance around us--within our families, within our friend groups--but that listening to yourself and believing that your instincts and hearts are good are worth the upheaval, and becoming unstuck will lead to the most rewarding days ahead.
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We’re back with more of the For the Love of Transitions series which is showing us the many ways we can move through life after a huge shift has occurred—whether it was chosen or thrust upon us. We have learned what it’s like to live through tragedy, we have seen what steps we must take to create a system of equity, and this week, we are talking through what it’s like to choose a transition from the world of acting to the world of activism. Jennifer Garner--you know her, you love her--she’s here telling us how she navigates life as a mom, an entrepreneur, and an actress--and the deliberate transitions she’s made to help make her world and others’ a better place. So many of us have followed Jen's career through TV & film, but she takes us back to the early days when she fell in love with theater, doing auditions in New York while she slept on the floor of a friend’s home who offered a place to lay her head. We also find out that her first job was working with Melissa Gilbert (Laura Ingalls of Little House on the Prairie fame) and how that eventually led to working with J.J. Abrams in Felicity, who then cast her in her breakout role as the star of Alias. The two Jens discuss everything from what it’s like to raise kids as they transition from littles to bigs and what eventually drove Jen’s pursuits outside of Hollywood to co-found Once Upon a Farm and become involved with Save the Children.
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Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For June 2021, Jen and the club read Emma Straub's All Adults Here. Emma is a New York Times bestselling author of three additional novels, including The Vacationers, Modern Lovers, and Laura Lamont’s Life in Pictures. Her books have been published in 20 countries, with All Adults Here recently being picked up by Apple for TV development. While she writes and creates worlds and characters for readers, she and her husband also run an independent bookstore in Brooklyn, NY, called Books Are Magic. As her literary star continues to rise, Emma is creating thoughtful and insightful conversations with her characters. All Adults Here addresses big topics like sexuality, gender, parenting, and family dynamics through the years. Jen and Emma dive into all things All Adults Here and discuss why this character led novel creates space to be open, honest, and vulnerable no matter what stage in life you are in. * * *
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As we continue in our For the Love of Transitions series, we’re tackling one of the most stressful transitions to face in life--a change to our financial situation. Perhaps a job change/loss reduced your income unexpectedly, or maybe a medical situation came out of the blue and drained your bank account, or maybe you went through a divorce and are down one income, and/or never had to be in charge of your own finances as an adult. Tiffany Aliche, aka, The Budgetnista has some thoughts for you, the most important one being; you can Get Good with Money (also the name of her New York Times bestselling book). Even though Tiffany grew up with a dad who was a CFO/accountant who educated her about finances, she experienced her own financial struggles and found herself moving back home at the age of 30. Having gone from owning her own home and making good money to having literally nothing took its toll on Tiffany’s psyche, but she was determined to not let shame win, and building her way back from the bottom is what has informed her life’s work--primarily to empower women to know and own their own financial well being. She and Jen candidly talk about their rock bottom financial moments and share their experiences of feeling powerless dealing with finances to getting help, getting educated and taking ownership of their financial lives and futures.
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When it comes to making a big transition in life, we are often held back by fear. Fear of judgment, fear of backlash, fear of losing those close to us. But, oftentimes, it takes a big transition to lead us toward a more fully authentic life. For some of us, on the surface, it’s easier to “be who we are” authentically—especially if we identify as straight cis-gender individuals. But for our friends in the trans community, taking the step to become who they really are has traditionally been fraught with roadblocks. For those who haven’t experienced this wall between us and our true selves, there can be a limited understanding of what a transgender person experiences and what defines them—and surprise—it’s different for each and every one. So this week, we’ve got one person’s story that might give us some insight into others we may know who are running into that wall that keeps them from truly knowing the joy of stepping fully into themselves. Stephanie Byers grew up in a time where there weren’t even words in our vernacular that she could cling to that could give her some sort of path to figure out her true identity. As the world evolved and other brave souls like Stephanie began to emerge, the community finally had a name—transgender. Stephanie walks us through the stages of her discovery of herself and how she finally decided to fully enter into her true self at the age of 51 and the response from her family and community. She also leads us through the journey that led her to become a force for change for equal rights for all different kinds of people by becoming Kansas’ first openly-trans state representative. Jen and Stephanie concur that it can be difficult to see from the perspective of a person whose very make-up is so different from our own, and that we may struggle to understand them fully, but it should never be a struggle to be kind in that process.
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In our For the Love of Transitions series, we’ve been looking at and evaluating the chosen and unchosen changes so many of us experience in the various seasons of our lives. In the category of chosen changes, we have found that so many women would welcome one in their lives, and it’s to develop a positive view of our bodies. Think back to the first time you had negative perceptions of your body. Were you 13 and getting ready for the homecoming dance? Maybe you were younger—9 years old at a pool party and realizing that your body looked different from your friends—and different then didn’t seem good or unique—different always equaled bad. Pile on top of those early perceptions the barrage of images presented to us by the beauty industry who constantly hammers home the quest for perfection—and reminding us that our bodies aren’t it. We’ve become so entrenched in the values of a world that seems to celebrate the way a person looks over who the person is. With a whopping 98% of women saying they wish they could “fix” something about their body, we can’t have enough positive body conversations to turn the tide on the lies we’ve been fed and that we tell ourselves. And to bring that conversation to our podcast community this week is Jess Connolly, who is a life coach, a Bible teacher and author whose new book is called Breaking Free from Body Shame. Jess and Jen dig into the origins of our body negativity, talk about ways we can each be nicer to our own bodies, and why it’s important to resist the “perfection persona.”
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When it comes to changing unhealthy dialogues and digging up errant roots that have been allowed to grow deep—many of us tend to ignore the discomfort and carry on with our days. However, when we live in denial, inequity and ignorance cannot be challenged, and greatness will not be achieved. During our For the Love of Transitions series, we’re learning how to embrace change. We’re sharing the stories of people who have lived through or implemented drastic changes in their lives and came out on the other side stronger and better than before. Some transitions are extremely broad in their scope and may seem nearly impossible—and one issue that’s come to the top of our agendas over the last year is; how do our communities and our country get to a place where we are moving toward an attitude of racial sensitivity? Is it possible that we agree more on what needs to happen around racial justice in this country than what we’re seeing portrayed as a great divide? Former NFL football player/now author and host of “Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man” Emmanuel Acho believes that many of us truly do want the same things when it comes to racial justice, but by living in long-held attitudes and perpetuating insensitive commentary around race, we’ve been unable to make the big strides needed to make lasting change. Emmanuel believes that everything great comes by being uncomfortable first, and by pushing us toward those uncomfortable moments, he’s hoping to topple the attitudes we might not even be aware we’ve been caught up in, toward a better and more understanding way of being. He also recognizes that getting people to embrace discomfort toward change is tough, but it’s worth it. Emmanuel puts the thought out there that racial insensitivity is a bigger problem than racism itself in our country, and points out that living in D-E-N-I-A-L (don’t even know I am lying) keeps that insensitivity intact. Emmanuel and Jen walk through the difference between outright racism (which universally, most of us are against) and racial insensitivity (which many of us are guilty of without even knowing it). Come get uncomfortable with us and let’s all move toward making something great.
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We continue with the “For the Love of Transitions” series and it’s giving us so many new perspectives on pushing back against what we’ve always known and finding new ways to grow and evolve into the person we have always wanted to be. This week’s episode really hits us where we live as we pursue to live a life that is “free”; free from pain, free from hurt, and free from bending to the will and opinion of others. Do you think you are living freely? In your soul, choices, and relationships? Do your actions embody the hopes and dreams you have for yourself? Or, are you acting under an assumed role? One that has always told us we need to be “the good girl;” one that is passive, servile and in the receiving position? It's hard to see through the systems we’ve become so toxically comfortable with. We have families and friends and jobs to worry about and care for and oftentimes it’s easier to fall into the assumed role than to build our own. However, when we wake up to being sovereign in our own authority, there is a liberation like no other. To walk us through this Radical Awakening (also the title of her brand new book) is Dr. Shefali Tsabary. Dr. Shefali is a New York Times bestselling author, a renowned clinical psychologist, and teacher to women as they transcend their fears and illusions to break free from the mold society has forced them into. Dr. Shefali and Jen have a vulnerable conversation about coming into a new and powerful sense of ourselves--and realizing that as women, “We have not been taught to back ourselves up. We've not been taught to put all our eggs inside our basket. And we don't know what it means to have our own back.” Dr. Shefali gently shows us that inner voice that every woman knows she has speaking to her, but is often avoiding by eating too much, being distracted too much, relentlessly serving family or work. Ultimately, freedom comes by not treating your inner knowing as a liar, but allowing it to speak and show you the truth about what’s really wrong and right in your world.
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Continuing in our “For the Love of Transitions” series, we look at crossroads many of us are facing in regards to our view of faith and religion. More than ever before, people in our country are choosing not to identify with a specific religion, including a large segment of Millennials who say they’ve “never attended church.” But amidst these shifts, there are many who hold tight to their faith, but haven’t found the stability of years past in the institutions they used to invest in for themselves and their families. What are the reasons for this shift? It’s a complex topic and sometimes charged to discuss, and we’ve got independent scholar and author, Diana Butler Bass to help us walk through it. Diana’s newest book, Freeing Jesus, invites readers to rediscover Jesus beyond the narrow confines society has built around Him. While discussing the mass exodus that’s happening in today’s churches, Jen and Diana look at how faith can and does thrive outside the pews of the church, and they ask the question: if we are church-goers, how can we work toward making our churches alive and welcoming for everyone?
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Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For May 2021, Jen and the club read Sue Monk Kidd’s The Book of Longings. Sue’s writing skyrocketed into notoriety after the publication of her book, The Secret Life of Bees. This novel spent nearly two years on the New York Times bestsellers list, has been translated into 36 languages, and has sold nearly 8 million copies. In addition to that smash hit, she has been nominated for and won numerous literary awards and has once again published a book that is impacting readers worldwide. The Book of Longings takes readers centuries back and immerses them in the world of Anna and her husband, Jesus. We get an intimate look at all the ways women can love, support, and encourage each other, while ensuring the stories of their lives are heard and told. This book reminds us that the power of a person does not come from who they are with and what their social status says, but instead, the way any individual impacts the world comes directly from their heart, dreams, and bravery.
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This week we are kicking off a brand new series here on the For the Love Podcast. There are so many times in each of our lives where a curveball just knocks us on our backs. The unexpected transition from what you thought was going to happen to your new reality is often hard to grapple with. But sometimes, we choose to make a major life change. So we’ll talk through all the ways we can embrace a transition. We’ll seek guidance from people who have made those transitions, learned from the struggle, and benefited from going through the process. Amy Downs epitomizes what it means to be thrown unwittingly into a situation that could have had a profoundly negative affect on her life, only to come out leading the charge for some amazing changes in her life. Amy is a survivor of the Oklahoma City Bombing--the last living person to be found under the rubble that claimed 168 souls that day. Amy’s outlook changed dramatically, and the 350 lb overweight college dropout with an attitude that she’d never amount to much used this experience to reclaim each area of her life by turning it around for the better. She and Jen talk about the horror of that day and how sometimes it’s possible to literally emerge from the rubble of our lives to take small steps toward healing and change.
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It’s the last episode of our Spring Back series--and we’re wrapping it up with a conversation that was the most listened to (and commented on) episode in our entire For the Love podcast history--and it’s with none other than Jen’s daughter, Sydney Hatmaker! Sydney first appeared on our show last summer, where she shared with the world that she was gay; walking us through her journey, beginning at 12 years old, and how hard she worked to reckon this with her faith and the beliefs of her family. This conversation between daughter and mother is so real, so brave, and if you haven’t heard it, you’re going to want to listen in as Jen and Sydney discuss some hard situations where religion and sexuality intersect and ultimately, how what they knew to be true about God and His love and mercy, was true for LGBTQ people of faith as well. And what better time to revisit our time with Sydney than during Pride month--plus we’ve got all new commentary from Jen and some updates about where Sydney is now in her life that you won’t want to miss!
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Are you ready to find your truth? We are currently in the tail-end of our spring back series where we are re-visiting some of our favorite episodes from For The Love past, and Jen’s bringing some all new insight and commentary to the conversation, as it is relevant to where we all are right now. This week we bring you the blockbuster combo of Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach! We love them here, but just in case you’re new, Glennon is a speaker, encourager, and a New York Times bestselling author with her most recent book, Untamed, passing 2 million copies sold--and she’s just started a brand new podcast called We Can Do Hard Things. Abby is an international soccer icon, bestselling author of the book WOLFPACK, and an activist for women and equal rights. This powerhouse couple and their unwavering belief in women inspires millions, and their work to create a more beautiful world for everyone is aspirational. So, this week, we are springing back to their first time here, and stick around all the way to the end as Jen has some new takeaways about lessons learned and how we can take those and dive straight into the life we have always been meant to live.
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There are so many lessons in life that are evergreen; they stay with us through each season, and that’s why we’re revisiting some episodes that bring those truths home in ways that are so applicable to where we are in life. Right. Now. For this episode of our Spring Back Series, we are bringing back one of our favorites - Marcie Alvis-Walker. Marcie is the creator of Black Coffee with White Friends and is an incredible teacher, leader, and woman. The first time she was here, Marcie and Jen talked through what racism actually looks like in America, the ways our history is steeped in minority erasure, and how each of us plays a role in the way stories are told. And this is a topic that is not going away, in fact, it may be more prominent now than ever before. Plus, Jen weighs in with some all new commentary regarding some key events of the past year that relate to this timeless conversation and how we can continue to uphold the idea of putting aside opinions for just a minute so we can better listen and know our neighbor.
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Each day as we inch closer to summer, we are reminded of all the possibilities that surround us daily. The leaves on the trees are becoming greener by the minute, the grass is finally dense and fluffy, flowers are pushing their way through the dirt. And just as the earth evolves, so do we. That’s why we wanted to bring you the Spring Back Series. After a particularly hard year or winter, it’s hard to remember all that we learned the year before. It’s even harder to put those lessons into practice and find ways to evolve into the people we were meant to be. So today we are springing back to an episode we love featuring the one and only Luvvie Ajayi Jones. You may know her as the New York Times bestselling author of I’m Judging You or as a speaker and podcast host. She exists beautifully at the intersection of comedy, media, and justice. She encourages all women to embrace their authentic selves and continually strive to be the best versions of themselves. So let’s spring back to Luvvie’s first time here with all new commentary from Jen about the impact of social media, the three steps we can take to be true to ourselves, and Luvvie’s new book, Professional Troublemaker.
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Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For April 2021, Jen chose her own book, Simple and Free, because what’s the point in having a book club if you can’t pick your own book every now and again? Jen invited two of her very best friends, Jenny and Shonna, to jump in on the discussion. They reminisce about the group decision to dive into living the experience of writing the book, why eating beans and rice for a whole month isn’t the most fun, and how not to train for a half marathon. This book reminds us that in a world filled with choices, sometimes you need to boil it down and bring it back to truly understand what you have, and recognize what means most to you.
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Just as we rely on spring each year to bring light and warmth back into our lives, we also depend on the lessons of life that show up during each season. That’s why on this series of For the Love we are bringing back some of our all-time favorite guests. Not only to remind ourselves of what life was like way back when it was normal, but also to give ourselves the chance to look back on some life lessons that we should always carry with us. And this week, we are bringing you the one and only, Emily Ley. You know the superstar mom that built the Simplified empire from the ground up? Yes, that one. Not only does she guide women to live their lives based in simplicity, she also encourages them to evaluate what truly matters, and ditch what doesn’t. Jen revisits why it’s so important to not only clear clutter from your home, but to also clear the clutter mentally. Because once we take the time to remove the unnecessary parts of life, we are then able to live a life filled with joy and passion for what we actually care about. AND Jen has all new commentary about how decluttering gives you space to live simple and free and grow boldly--also the topics of Jen’s and Emily’s new books.
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Spring is here, and you know what that means! Blossoming, regrowth, cleaning out, all the goodness that comes with a new season. But that doesn’t mean we should leave behind the lessons learned last season. We can be watering what we planted, watching it grow, and trying to become the better humans we’ve always strived to be. There are truths and lessons that come back year after year, reminding us of who we want to be and who we should be. To that end, we’ve gathered some wisdom from a few of our favorite For The Love Podcast guests that speak into what’s happening in our world right now, plus some brand new commentary from Jen as to how we can apply these ideas to where we are in our lives today. Spring back with as we revisit these time-tested truths while we keep on finding our footing in the present.
Episode Description
It’s new series time--and we’re “springing back” to some For the Love favorites, while bringing you some new thoughts from Jen’s heart in this season! As they say, what’s old becomes new again, and we can rely on spring every year to bring us that new growth; from the plants to the trees, and oftentimes within our own souls. This week we are bringing back one of Jen’s longtime inspirations and mentors, Beth Moore. Beth’s recent split from her roots in the Southern Baptist community after calling out the misogyny, inequality, and disregard for many minority communities has a lot of people talking. It was a big, huge deal, and Jen explains what this means to the Christian zeitgeist. Jen also revisits her favorite moments with Beth and dives back into how we can learn to live a life filled with faith even if that means pushing back against long held, and perhaps antiquated beliefs. So, let’s Spring back to our interview with Beth, and reflect on the biblical concept of the vineyard and how vines can grow in rocky places, opening space for God to prune and prepare us for change that comes with seasons of growth.
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Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For March 2021, Jen and the club read Laura Zigman’s Separation Anxiety. Laura shot into superstardom with the publication of her first novel, Animal Husbandry, which was later adapted into the film Someone Like You starring Hugh Jackman and Ashley Judd. So, no big deal for your first book, right? Laura’s latest book, Separation Anxiety, helps readers face the complexities of everyday life in the 21st century. From self-help culture, anxiety, depression, and longing for what once was, Zigman knits and weaves the lives of her characters in a way that makes them relatable, complex, and at times absurd. The book reminds us that not everything is straightforward with one path ahead. Oftentimes we need to evaluate where we are and how we can grow in order to be who we’re meant to be.
Join the sisterhood today! jenhatmakerbookclub.com
NEW JEN BOOK!
Get Simple and Free, a call toward simplicity and generosity for a radically better life (a revised and updated version of Jen’s book 7) https://jenhatmaker.com/books/simple-and-free
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It’s the grand finale of our For the Love of Food series—and lucky for us, we’ve got someone on today who holds the very high honor of “Most Requested For the Love Podcast Guest of All Time”—Joanna Gaines! Jen and Jo are real-life buddies, and this week they dive into Joanna’s rich family heritage that introduced her to so many cuisines from around the world by the time she could crawl. They dish about how to get a big family to get to the table, let alone connect at the table, how Jo finds joy in her garden, and why the kitchen is her happy place (even as she’s learning to cook on camera for her new show on the Magnolia Network called Magnolia Table with Joanna Gaines). The two also get into very serious topics like the war between Ragú and Prego, and why ramen most certainly cannot have an egg in it. Through it all, Joanna shows that food has the power to bring life to any situation, and why getting folks around the table is far more important than how perfect the dish is that brought them there.
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“Come on over.” Talk about three words that promise fun’s on the way! We’re daydreaming of getting back to game nights with our besties, and margaritas with the neighbors, and the great Jeff Mauro is no exception. You may know him as a cohost on Food Network’s The Kitchen, or maybe as a winner of The Next Food Network Star. After getting his start working in a deli when he was 15 and later opening his own, Jeff is the larger-than-life sandwich king who’s just published a cookbook and launched a podcast—and both are called Come On Over! Jeff and Jen dive into why you must establish proper sandwich making protocol, and why it’s wise to become friends with your local deli guy. Jeff shows us that food has the power to bring together people of all ages, and after the past year, the “Come On Over” mentality might look different, but we can still find the same spirit of love and connection through a shared meal.
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When you’re a kitchen newbie, it can feel a little intimidating—and even overwhelming—to figure out how to put a good meal together, especially if you’re just asking yourself questions like, “What the heck is oregano, anyway?” But we all start somewhere, even world-renowned country music artists. Martina McBride is a 14-time GRAMMY-nominated country singer, cookbook author, and self-taught home chef. Jen and Martina talk through what it’s really like to put a cookbook together, how these two Kansas girls learned the ins and outs of the kitchen in their adult years, and how a neighborhood golf cart can bring us a new verse to our all-time favorite Martina song “For the Girls!”
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We know we aren’t the only ones who spend hours on the couch binging episodes of Chopped or Iron Chef. Not only is it super satisfying watching other people cook— we feel like we become friends with the contestants and judges. And this week, we get to hear from one of our favorite Food Network chefs/judges/friends, Maneet Chauhan! Maneet and Jen take a walk through Maneet’s culinary history from her beginnings in India to the leap she took into the NYC culinary scene, and why she decided to begin her own restaurant empire in Nashville. Maneet has become known as the fun, kind, and bubbly judge on Chopped and now tells the full story of her path to culinary star in her latest book, Chaat. We’re so pleased to have Maneet’s perspective during our For the Love of Food series as she lifts up fellow female professional chefs and helps us understand the legacy of culturally driven foods.
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In the past year, many of us have looked at our kitchens and had to flip the Open sign to Closed. We put big holidays dinners on hold. We canceled game nights with our friends. We traded cutting boards for takeout containers because we just. couldn’t. cook. another. meal. But we still need to eat and nourish our bodies and souls, and for that, we turn to Alex Snodgrass of The Defined Dish. Alex shares her unlikely journey to creating a popular food brand and a New York Times bestselling cookbook (also called The Defined Dish), how to your get over your anchovy aversion (it’s worth it, we promise), and why healthy eating doesn’t mean a carrot stick on a bed of lettuce. Jen and Alex talk about how food can bond groups of people who may not come together otherwise, and why forming a community is super rewarding—even if you’re separated by a screen.
Get Jen’s latest book, SIMPLE & FREE! jenhatmaker.com/simpleandfree
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Break out the confetti cannons because today’s guest is someone we’ve wanted on the show since Day 1: the one and only Jennifer Garner! Who didn’t love Alias? Who doesn’t watch 13 Going on 30 at least once a year? Jen Garner is one of our favorite actors ever, and today, the two Jens talk about all things Yes Day, Jen Garner’s brand-new movie on Netflix that’s the perfect feel-good watch for your family this spring break. The Jens talk about the phenomenon of Yes Days they’ve shared with their own kids (i.e. magical days where kids can do basically anything they want within reason) and how these days have brought their families closer together. From sitting in the front seat to getting eyebrows threaded to sharing s’mores around a campfire in the backyard, there’s so much joy to be found when we say yes a little more to our kids—and even to ourselves.
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We hope all you foodies out there have been enjoying the Food 2.0 series. But we know some of you saw what this series was about and thought, I can’t cook, I’ve never cooked, I will never cook, and you can’t make me! Listen, we get it—cooking isn’t everyone’s bag. It wasn’t Bri McKoy’s either. Bri’s an accidental home cook turned cookbook author, and her foray into the culinary space started when her husband refused to build a home out of their collection of Thai takeout containers. Bri reluctantly learned what a pinch of salt was, how to literally toast bread, and that onion casseroles perhaps aren’t the best idea to serve, well, ever. Bri watched a lot of Food Network and honed her craft, and since then she’s found a love for traveling with knives, and as a military wife, she’s learned food can be an easy way to bring people to the table and build community. Jen and Bri share some of their most epic kitchen failures, divulge the biggest lessons we can learn from standing over a stove, and reveal their can’t-live-without-it kitchen gadgets. Bri shows that food fills our days with simple joy and helps us forge new relationships with people in ways we never thought possible—even over a Zoom cocktail.
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Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For February 2021, the Jen Hatmaker Book Club read the novel Red at the Bone by four-time National Book Award winner Jacqueline Woodson, and whew, what a story. Jacqueline is a master storyteller who explores all kinds of topics—sexual desire and identity, ambition, gentrification, education, class and status, and the life-altering facts of parenthood—with the grace and nuance that each deserves. Red at the Bone is a fascinating novel that looks at the ways young people often make long-lasting decisions about their lives—even before they’ve begun to figure out who they are and what they want to be.
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We’ve got a crush on this series and everyone in it—because FOOD! For the Love of Food, Part 2 is cooking up something new this week as we move into BAKING with a member of the royal family of baking itself—The Great British Bake Off’s Nadiya Hussain! Nadiya is not only the Mary Poppins of baking, she’s also hosting a brand-new show on Netflix that’ll be your brand-new happy place, and it’s called—what else?—Nadiya Bakes. Nadiya reveals why she never turned on an oven or baked anything until her 20s, why her husband sent in an application to Bake Off without her knowing (!), and how she learned to be confident in the kitchen and how to keep saying yes to new opportunities. Nadiya shows us that baking doesn’t have to be Bake Off-level perfect to bring people together, and promises our mashed potatoes would be better if we just added a bit of mayo to the mix (we’ll take her word for it!).
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It’s a big day on For the Love, friends—we’re celebrating our 200th episode! We’re kicking off a brand-new series about food! And we’re celebrating it all with an FTL Fan Favorite: The Pioneer Woman herself, Ree Drummond! Ree’s back on the show to talk about the best (or tackiest?) sweatshirt of all time gifted to her by none other than Purveyor of Fine Sweatshirts, Jen Hatmaker. Jen and Ree talk about their favorite pastimes, potato chip sandwiches, what Ree makes when she’s just freaking tired of cooking (there may be a lot of jars involved), and the importance of a microwaved Ding Dong in a well-balanced diet. Not only does Ree show that cooking can be fun, she shares that it doesn’t have to be complicated and perfect—in fact, it’s probably better if it’s not.
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Calling all book nerds! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. For January 2021, the Jen Hatmaker Book Club read the novel This Tender Land by the author extraordinaire William Kent Krueger. Chock full of intrigue and adventure and drama, this unforgettable story of four orphans who travel the Mississippi River on a life-changing journey during the Great Depression just absolutely transported us. During this episode, Kent dives into the real-life research behind the Lincoln Indian Training School, and how Mark Twain and The Odyssey played a huge role in shaping the story. Kent gives us a peek into the family that he created among the brave runaways and how their bond shifts as they heal together throughout the novel.
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Have you ever had a conversation with a friend or loved one where you couldn’t find common ground about something that fundamentally mattered to you? Is it possible for those relationships to continue, even though you don’t see eye to eye? Today we’re wrapping up our For the Love of Reconnecting series and talking about some of the hardest reconnecting of all: how to stay engaged with and even love someone who thinks differently from us. To guide us through this rocky terrain, we have Rozella Haydée White—AKA the Love Big Coach. Rozella is a theologian, a spiritual life-coach and a leadership consultant who guides people to give and receive love that is life-giving and justice-seeking. Rozella and Jen walk through what it means to lean into the hardest conversations and make space for yourself and the ones you love (or have a hard time loving). Rozella reminds us that, “If we believe that people are created in the image of God, then I don't really have a choice but to believe in people.”
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Over the past year, we’ve had to put our dreams on hold. We canceled vacations, missed family gatherings, and constantly wondered, How long will my life look like this? But those spaces in our calendars have given us the margin to think about what’s next for us. And as we continue our For the Love of Reconnecting series, we’re going to go out on a limb and thinking about what it looks like to reconnect with our dreams. And our next guest, Priyanka Chopra Jonas knows all about that. Priyanka’s a triple-threat: she’s an actor, a social activist, and now the author of a brand-new memoir called Unfinished. Jen and Priyanka trace Priyanka’s winding path from India to the US as a teen, and how she’s leaped with both feet into new projects and challenges and discovered that being willing to fail is an important part of leveling up and investing in ourselves. Jen and Priyanka dive into why it’s so important to normalize ambition in women and girls, and why putting boots on the ground is crucial to making our dreams a reality.
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Get ready for a deep-dive into what it means to listen and connect with those around you with our next guest in the Reconnecting series: psychiatrist and executive coach Dr. Mark Goulston. As a former FBI hostage negotiation trainer, Dr. Goulston knows how to reach out to and connect with just about anyone. After the past twelve months, we’re all living on edge, and Dr. Goulston gives Jen a few communication tips to guide tense conversations toward calm. Plus, Dr. Goulston shows us how people are icebergs and why asking someone, “What’s really going on?” more than once helps us drill down and discover what the real problem is. And spoiler alert: when we vulnerably share what’s going on with us, and when someone listens and responds without judgment—whether we’re doing the sharing or the listening, true connection really does help us heal. And after 2020, we’re all due for a heavy dose of healing.
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Break out a pen and notebook, because today on For the Love, we’re going back to school with writer and professor Chris Stedman, our next guest in the For the Love of Reconnecting series. A former chaplain at Harvard and founding director of the Yale Humanist Community, Chris just wrote a fascinating book called IRL: Finding Realness, Meaning, and Belonging in Our Digital Lives. He’s a millennial who grew up fluent in the digital world but didn’t have a smartphone that tethered him to the internet until after his formative years, when a post he wrote went viral and steered him toward building a platform online. The internet of today is definitely not the one Chris grew up with—it’s no longer something we log in and out of. Chris and Jen talk about the beauty of finding and building community online and expanding our circles of belonging, but also why it’s so important to disconnect from tech every once in a while, because we discover things about ourselves in the silence of retreat that we may not see otherwise. And while sometimes the internet can seem like a place teeming with chaos, Chris reminds us that we have the power to choose how we engage with technology, that we control our devices—not the other way around.
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With so much discussion around finding different ways to connect in a season where literal physical connections are challenging at best, how do we address when our spiritual connections are faltering? How do we “feel seen” by God when things are not okay and our attitudes are washed in more doubt than belief? Writer Bunmi Laditan (also known by her online moniker, The Honest Toddler) joins For the Love to share her lifelong journey of wrestling with God and faith, and ultimately finding hope, acceptance, and love. The daughter of Nigerian immigrants, Bunmi ran away from home as a teen, seeking a home and faith that wouldn’t shackle her to rules and tradition. During her wanderings in both the spiritual and physical world, she explored relationships and different faith traditions before finally coming to know a core truth that has informed her ever since: God sees her and loves her—and He would come to meet her, no matter where her wandering took her.
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It’s so hard to feel your feelings—especially when you have all of them all at once, and it’s never a convenient time to process them. For the past year, we’ve all been stewing with anxiety, stress, anger, loneliness, grief, and fear. Ignoring our hard feelings might seem like the easiest way to cope and get relief—but it’s not the only option available to us. Our next guest in our For the Love of Reconnecting Series, psychoanalyst and therapist Hilary Jacobs Hendel, reminds us that when we disconnect from our harder emotions, we disconnect from the life-giving ones too, like joy—and don’t we all need more of that right now?. Hilary’s the author of a fascinating book called It’s Not Always Depression (and psst: she consulted on the psychological development of characters in Mad Men!), and she and Jen talk about the freedom we find when we realize emotions just are, and we don’t have to judge them. In fact, instead of shutting down, Hilary shows us how we can walk ourselves toward self-compassion and healing, which gives us real resilience—not the kind that we think we have by stuffing down our feelings.
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Next up in our For the Love of Reconnecting series, we’re touching base with a very important and easy-to-lose-hold-of concept: our boundaries. If 2020 taught us anything, it’s how much setting boundaries impacts our life. So why do we feel guilty when we actually do set them? And when was the last time you took a second to think about what you need and what you have the capacity for? Therapist Nedra Glover Tawwab, author of the book Set Boundaries, Find Peace, walks us through how we draw these needed lines, and why it’s important for us to have them in the first place (spoiler alert: they’re crucial for our mental health and keep us away from resentment and burnout). It’s okay for us to ask for what we want and take charge of our own lives, even if some people don’t agree—because in the end, you really do know what’s best for you.
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Sneak peek alert! Are you looking for a place where your book-loving heart can flourish? Look no further, and allow us to welcome you to the Jen Hatmaker Book Club. Want to join us? Visit jenhatmakerbookclub.com, and become one of our sisters in nerdiness. This month, we read the oh-so-powerful Cleo McDougal Regrets Nothing by Allison Winn Scotch. Allison tells us why the #MeToo and TIME’S UP movements inspired her to write this story, plus we dive into how regrets can impact our lives and how they present an opportunity for amends and personal growth. We get to unpack Cleo’s engaging and fierce character, what it’s like to be a woman in this moment in time (and to be one in politics!), and how being unapologetically ambitious might mean you’re not liked. Allison walks us through how she crafted a character that doesn’t rub everyone the right way, but how we still end up rooting for Cleo anyway. By unpacking abuse of power, examining Cleo’s role as a mother, and watching her learn to confront her not-so-great decisions, Allison has woven a tale that captivates us and teaches us and inspires us to be leaders ourselves.
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New year, new series! We’re thinking all about For the Love of Reconnecting, where we’ll try to get back in touch with who we are and what we value, so that we can start to inch forward in this brand-new year. What’s holding you back? Is there a real obstacle standing in the way of your growth—or is it just a story you’re telling yourself? Therapist, author, TED Talk superstar and podcast host Lori Gottlieb knows a thing or two about the stories we tell ourselves. In fact, Lori opens up her life in a deeply vulnerable way, taking us into the stories she told herself as a practicing therapist and how she moved past them in her New York Times bestselling memoir Maybe You Should Talk to Someone. Lori explains that we are the narrators of our own stories, and how we talk to ourselves and tell the story of our lives shapes who we will become. She asserts that when we begin to take responsibility for our choices and allow ourselves to examine what’s working in or lives and what we can tweak a little bit, we’ll begin to let go of the feeling of being trapped—and find a power in ourselves we never knew was there.
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We made it, you guys—we’re finally turning the corner into a brand-new year and into the hope of a fresh start. And while 2021 will no doubt have its set of challenges, we’ve set our minds to living in the moment while we wait for a post-pandemic world to settle in, thanks to inspiration from minister and activist Cece Jones-Davis. Cece was one of our favorite 2020 guests, and she’s back to lead us through a vigil on what we’ve walked through this year and reflect on all the beautiful things we have to look forward to. Cece reminds us that the weariness we feel from this year can be a powerful catalyst towards change for the better, and why 2021 can be the year of “Alive” (which happens to be the title of her brand-new worship album!). And here’s a little reminder for you, sister: as we enter a new chapter, remember that God is alive in you, and He has plans for hope and a future with your name written right on top.
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It’s the most wonderful time of the year! But let’s be honest: if you’re a Hallmark Christmas Movie addict, it’s been the most wonderful time of the year since October, and you’re not sorry about it. And neither are Dan, Panda, and Bran—the 3 dudes behind the smash-hit podcast Deck the Hallmark. These Hallmark movie connoisseurs each have a different perspective: Bran loves them, Panda’s okay with them, and Dan hate-watches with all his might. Jen and the guys break down why these, let’s
face it, “less than stellar production value-filled” shows are so addicting. AND are we ever surprised that the big-city girl falls for the small-town candlemaker who owns the snowy inn?! The group dishes on the best movies Hallmark has to offer (spoiler alert: The Fonz makes an appearance!), and which ones you desperately need to avoid. And to wrap this holiday episode in the most beautiful bow, the group signs off by divulging their fantasy cast and plot lines for the Hallmark movies of their dreams.
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This week, we’re wrapping up our celebration of small wins amid the 2020 dumpster fire, and we’re asking ourselves two questions: where we go from here, and how do we say yes what’s ahead? Savvy businesswoman and bubbly star of TLC’s Say Yes to the Dress: Atlanta Lori Allen has said yes to many things in her life: launching and running a successful bridal boutique for 40 years, fighting breast cancer, and managing the roles of wife, mom, grandmother, and daughter of aging parents. Lori and Jen break down how to push through resistance to change and breakthrough to accept the next yes, even when we don’t know what’s ahead.
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“If my faith cannot offer me something in the wilderness moments, it isn’t worth having,” says Rev. Naomi Washington-Leapheart. And as we explore the silver linings of this turbulent year, Rev. Naomi’s wisdom is just what we need as we turn our thoughts to how our faith has held us up, stretched our empathy, and asked us to hold suffering and joy with both hands. As Philadelphia’s Director of the Mayor’s Office of Faith-Based and Interfaith Affairs, Rev. Naomi has spent the year trying to bring faith communities together with the goal of healing a hurting city. And for those who may not be able to see a way forward, Rev. Naomi reminds us that God is still right there, never leaving us alone. Because as she says, “we are always becoming,” meaning that even through the impossible, good can be brought out of any story—including the ones we never asked for.
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GIFT GUIDE ALERT
Making your holiday gift list and checking it twice? Need more ideas for unique, useful, or doing-good gifts? Check out all the goodies on the 4th Annual Edition of Jen’s Favorite Things Holiday Gift Guide!
➤ https://bit.ly/JensFavoriteThings2020
Sneak peek alert! Are you a bookie? Do you love reading and talking about what you’re reading? Then the Jen Hatmaker Book Club is where you belong. Want to join us? Visit jenhatmakerbookclub.com, become one of the squad. This month, we read the fiercely feminine and delightful novel The Bookish Life of Nina Hill by the oh-so-talented Abbi Waxman. Abbi gives us a peek into her pleasurable work that’s truly the happy ending we need right now, because just like Nina, books are our escape. Abbi dives into what it was like to craft a character with ADHD and anxiety, and how she broke down that stigma, showing how preserving your mental health goes hand and hand with living a regular life. Abbi dives into what family issues can look like realistically, how the small moments can make the most spectacular relationship, and how dominating at trivia can give you a minute of triumph when you need it.
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Joy and pain aren’t mutually exclusive; they mingle together in our stories every single day. That’s probably never been more true than in 2020. In these moments, we reach for guides who have traveled through some dark moments and come out the other side, and we couldn’t have a better teacher than writer, speaker, and self-proclaimed joyologist Dawn Barton. Pain and loss have been familiar companions to Dawn for a long time. She’s lost a baby daughter, and a sister to cancer. She’s suffered through sexual assault and walked her mother through recovery from an aneurysm, and her husband through alcohol addiction. Dawn has seen suffering, but she’s also realized that even in the middle of pain, you can experience full-fledged joy. Moments of hurt create opportunities for others to show up for us, and allow us to experience love in ways beyond what we ever thought possible (and sometimes scary times lead to hilarious ones, as Dawn found during her misadventures with a prosthetic breast named Lucky). Ultimately, our lives come full circle when we get to help someone else through their painful moments the way that others once helped us.
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GIFT GUIDE ALERT
Making your holiday gift list and checking it twice? Need more ideas for unique, useful, or doing-good gifts? Check out all the goodies on the 4th Annual Edition of Jen’s Favorite Things Holiday Gift Guide!
➤ https://bit.ly/JensFavoriteThings2020
2020 has shaken up so many of our beliefs. What’s normal? What’s safe? What does it look like for our families and our communities to thrive? These are life-changing questions, and today’s guest is someone who has been searching for the answers to these very questions for nearly two decades. Diana Oestreich was an American soldier in Iraq who received orders to keep her convoy rolling at all costs, even if children crossed her path. And in that gut-wrenching moment, Diana decided she couldn’t follow those orders, and she would fight for peace with sacrifice instead of bullets. Today Diana “wages peace” with love and justice alongside the organization Preemptive Love, and she and Jen talk about who the true heroes are, and how everything changes in our world when we choose to build bridges instead of walls.
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Ancestry | So don’t miss special holiday pricing on truly meaningful gifts during the Holiday Sale! Head to ancestry.com/forthelove
GIFT GUIDE ALERT
Making your holiday gift list and checking it twice? Need more ideas for unique, useful, or doing-good gifts? Check out all the goodies on the 4th Annual Edition of Jen’s Favorite Things Holiday Gift Guide!
➤ https://bit.ly/JensFavoriteThings2020
Do you know who has a PhD in Small Wins? We do, because this week on the show we have The Lazy Genius, AKA the brilliant and delightful Kendra Adachi! Kendra is the woman who brought the Tim Riggins Salad and Change Your Life Chicken to the internet, and she is about to change our lives far beyond the fridge (though fun fact: that chicken is delicious). Kendra’s going to give us a treasure trove of pro tips, like the beauty of 17-minute naps and the stress-reducing way to clean up our kitchens (hint: zones, people—it’s all about the zones!). As a recovering perfectionist, Kendra’s learned how to strike the middle ground between “It has to be perfect!” and “Meh, I don’t care anymore.” She shows us how to care about what matters and let the rest go, because let’s be real: there’s just too much for us to care about everything. Plus, for all the Enneagram 1s and Type-As out there, Kendra reminds us that even if our plans are upended, it doesn’t mean our plans were wrong—it just means that life happened, and we’ll be okay.
And stay till the end for Jen and Kendra’s Hamilton love fest as they look around, look around at how lucky we are to be alive right now in a world with Lin Manuel-Miranda and Disney+!
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GIFT GUIDE ALERT
Making your holiday gift list and checking it twice? Need more ideas for unique, useful, or doing-good gifts? Check out all the goodies on the 4th Annual Edition of Jen’s Favorite Things Holiday Gift Guide!
➤ https://bit.ly/JensFavoriteThings2020
It’s the most wonderful time of the year—gift guide time! We're going to go ahead and give 2020 the No, Thank You Award, but we can still try to make the holidays merry and bright. And to help you do that, we bring you the 4th installment of Jen’s Favorite Things! Every year, we shine a spotlight on brands we love that also give back, so we do the most good with the dollars we're already going to spend (and PS: so many of these companies are women-owned!). So grab a cup of cocoa while Jen and her sisters, Lindsay and Cortney, share 12 incredible companies with amazing products—everything from coffee and candles to comfy robes and socks and Jen’s signature feather earrings. Plus, each brand has a special offer just for you, so you can stock up on great gifts and also save some cash. Look alive, campers, it’s time to do some Christmas shopping!
Psst: We’ve taken notes so you don’t have to! Head over to jenhatmaker.com/podcast for a one-stop shop of all the companies, products, and offers mentioned on the show.
On the road to finding small wins, it’s helpful to watch for the “green lights” in our lives—those signals that indicate we can move forward when we see them—but also recognize and appreciate the yellows and reds that slow us down so we can take a second to absorb what life is teaching us. Academy Award-winning actor, minister of culture, and self-proclaimed pickle expert Matthew McConaughey is a man who’s had a few green lights show up over the course of his career (along with a few reds and yellows, he admits). He shares about it all in his new book, Greenlights, where he describes (in an oh-so-McConaughey way) his “sights and seens, felts and figured-outs, cools and shamefuls.” Matthew points out that green lights illuminate our way through the choices we make, and challenge us to ask some bigger questions: Are you living in the present? Are you being kind? Are you enjoying both freedom and responsibility? Matthew gives us a sneak peek into his motivation for writing Greenlights, and tells us about important women in his life who shaped and supported him all along the way.
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*Gift Guide Alert!*
Making your holiday gift list and checking it twice? Need more ideas for unique, useful, or doing-good gifts? Look for Jen’s super-special annual Gift Guide Episode, popping into your feed on Monday, November 16!
Right now, we all need some small wins. And in our brand-new series called—wait for it—For the Love of Small Wins, we’re talking to thought leaders who remind us to look for the ways kindness and resilience has showed up in our lives this year. First up, author and life coach Valorie Burton knows all about something we each struggle with: guilt. She knows what it looks like, how it can disguise itself, and how ingrained it is in our daily lives. Valorie helps us identify the difference between authentic and false guilt, and walks us through the different types of guilt we experience, especially in 2020: mom/daughter/friend guilt, guilt for not doing more or better, guilt for not being involved enough in the causes happening around us. Valerie gives us the tools to begin to let go of guilt, so we can take the first step on our journey to appreciating the small wins of 2020
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*Gift Guide Alert!*
Making your holiday gift list and checking it twice? Need more ideas for unique, useful, or doing-good gifts? Look for Jen’s super-special annual Gift Guide Episode, popping into your feed on Monday, November 16!
Want a sneak peek into the book club of your dreams? Then allow us to present: the Jen Hatmaker Book Club! From time to time, we’ll drop in with what we’re reading in hopes you’ll join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com—because we know you’ll love it. We had to bring this one out of the vault, because we are the biggest fans of NYT bestselling author—and now TV and podcast host—Kelly Corrigan! Kelly’s memoir Tell Me More was the first book we chose to read in the Jen Hatmaker Book Club back in June 2019, because Kelly has a knack for taking a magnifying glass to the phrases that create connection between us (like “I don’t know,” “I was wrong,” and “Good enough”) and showing us why they matter, all with her signature humor and warmth. If you’ve never met Kelly, get ready: you’re about to meet your new favorite. And while you’re at it, check out Kelly’s brand-new projects: a podcast called Kelly Corrigan’s Wonders and a new interview series on PBS called—wait for it—Tell Me More!
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To be Black in America means living at several different intersections. Writer and thinker Marcie Alvis-Walker joins For the Love Podcast to share the inspiration behind her beautiful, thought-provoking space called Black Coffee with White Friends. Marcie shares about her experience having to code switch as she grew up—she’d have to adapt her language, her likes and dislikes based on the group she was with—and what it’s like for her family to navigate the world being members of different races. Marcie leads us to think about what it means to “celebrate” holidays like 4th of July, Memorial Day, and Columbus Day when your skin isn’t white, and how siblings of different races can use their influence to help their Black siblings.
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On this bonus episode of For the Love, we’re talking about a heartwarming new movie (based on a true story!) called “2 Hearts” with organ donor recipient and advocate Michael Kutcher. He’s a walking miracle shares his journey of receiving a heart transplant 29 years ago, and the profound ways the gift of organ donation not only gave him life—it impacted generations, as Michael is a proud father today. Michael and Jen talk about the beautiful parallels between Michael’s story and the “2 Hearts” movie, a true story of two couples who were never supposed to meet, but through love and generosity, they end up making waves in the world.
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Stories come in many forms: in the reports we see in the news, the TV shows and movies that light up our screens, from books to toys and so many other places. New York Times bestselling author Brit Bennett is here to discuss the ways that Black stories are told and the ripple effects they have across American culture. She shares insight into her life as a young author and how she’s used her writing as a way to figure out the way she feels about different topics—like what it means to “perform race,” which she wrote about in her latest book called The Vanishing Half. Brit dives into the stories she’s looking to create in the world—ones that show the human experience of what it means to struggle and the ways we experience hope and joy and love.
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What does it mean to build the world in a way where every single person, no matter their color, gender, ability or religion has access to security and opportunity? That’s a question inventor and entrepreneur Jessica O. Matthews has spent much of her life asking. Jessica is the CEO of Uncharted Power, a company looking to build sustainable infrastructure in the world—which Jessica launched when she was just twenty-two years old! She shares the legacy of curiosity and hard work her parents passed onto her, and why having countless hmm moments leads to that one a-ha! moment. Jessica and Jen hash out the opportunities the world has left on the table of innovation and why Jessica’s place at several intersections—a Black woman who’s a dual US/Nigerian citizen—helps her recognize developments that are still possible for parts of the world that typically don’t receive investment. Because as Jessica says: “I have the ability to not see the world as it is but to see the world as it should be. That's something that would not have happened not only if I wasn't just Nigerian American, but if I wasn't a woman of color.”
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Having access to learning is a portal to opportunity, a key to unlocking your dreams and leaving doors open for those who come after you. That’s what education has been for Dr. Monique Morris, an author, scholar, justice educator and die-hard Prince fan who, in sixth grade, found herself at a fork in the road. She got into a fight with a boy who’d provoked her. And instead of suspending her, expelling her, or arresting her and pushing her away, Dr. Morris’ teachers reconnected her to her learning community—a key moment in the life of a girl who’d been dealing with sexual abuse and violence in her home. This moment of restoration paved the path for Dr. Morris to go on to earn a doctorate in education. Others in Dr. Morris’ situation haven’t been as fortunate, and find their studies interrupted by disciplinary action and a descent down the slippery slope known commonly as the “school to prison pipeline,” where they are pushed out of the education experience and criminalized by administrators. Dr. Morris uses her own education and experience to advocate for Black and brown students, encouraging schools to look at themselves as places of healing and restoration, not punishment, so that more students of color can become the scholars they are meant to be. Because no person is “unrecoverable,” and the important“freedom work of education begins when teachers ultimately see themselves as healers.
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Want a sneak peek into the book club of your dreams? Then allow us to present: the Jen Hatmaker Book Club! From time to time, we’ll drop in with what we’re reading in hopes you’ll join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com—because we know you’ll love it. This month, we read the gorgeous bestselling novel The Storyteller’s Secret by lawyer-turned-writer Sejal Badani. Sejal gives us a behind the scenes look at what it was like to write a fiction story that’s deeply rooted in her own family history, and how examining the lives of her ancestors helped unravel her emotions about her own upbringing. What began as a way to break free from family secret-keeping became a way for Sejal to explain her heritage and history to her children. Writing Storyteller also became a method of healing, and Sejal shares how exposing the most vulnerable parts of who we are can help create a better world for someone else.
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Cultivating a healthy mind is essential for our entire well-being. Psychologist and theologian Dr. Chanequa Walker-Barnes joins us For the Love of Black Lives series to help us unpack how the anxiety and trauma carried through generations of Black Americans affects the flourishing of communities of every stripe (and newsflash: the trauma we experience can be passed down through four generations after us). For so long, Black women have been praised as “strong,” and they absolutely are. But when we only view Black women as unshakeable “superwomen,” we take away their right to vulnerability, their right to care for themselves, and their right to be cared for by someone else. And instead, we hand them a standard that’s impossible to achieve—which, as anyone knows who’s tried to achieve something that can’t be attained, causes shame and depression. Dr. Chanequa describes the effects of living in a community where anxiety is normal for everyone. As she says, “I was never taught to think of what I had as anxiety, even though now I realize, on both sides of my family, there’s anxiety.” She explains why it’s vital for Black women and men to have access to Black mental healthcare providers, so clients can feel truly seen and heard, and receive the true care they need. And above all, Dr. Chanequa reminds us that every Black woman, child, and man is worthy of self-care. They are worthy to notice and treat their pain and anxiety, so they can flourish in wholeness.
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Black culture is central to American culture—we simply don’t have America without having the Black experience, born of slavery and systemic racism and white supremacy, of physical and mental and emotional pain. But through generations, Black women and men have passed down stories given from their mothers and grandmothers. They’ve cooked and sang and danced and played the most beautiful music. They’ve wrote and dreamed and created. Black culture has inspired us for hundreds of years as it has woven its way into the tapestry of American life. And today, we’re going to talk about the richness of it all with Dr. Tanisha C. Ford, a cultural critic and professor of history at CUNY. Dr. Ford shares the artists and icons that shaped her world as a young Black woman growing up (everyone from her own mother and her leather jackets, to the music of Aretha Franklin and TLC, Roberta Flack and Mary J. Blige). Dr. Ford shows us how looking deeply at culture helps us see the threads of politics and society woven within. We learn why cultural appropriation is tied to systems of exploitation. We see why we need to shift our eyes away from history books that haven’t centered important Black pioneers like Anna Julia Cooper and Ida B. Wells, why everyone needs to read words from thinkers like James Baldwin and Audre Lorde. We see how Shirley Chisholm paved the way for Kamala Harris. We see the beauty and strength of artists like Nina Simone and Billie Holiday, and how they birth artists like Alicia Keys and Janelle Monáe. And through it all we see how new forms of technology have carried Black voices to new corners of the world for decades, planing the seeds for social media to blossom into a powerful force for the change that we’re seeing today.
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Though many of our country’s systems of care desperately need an overhaul, there’s one system in particular that could improve greatly to help Black Americans: healthcare. It might be unimaginable that we might get lesser care, for example, if we found ourselves in a medical emergency or were giving birth to our child. But Black women and men find themselves in these situations often, where healthcare professionals aren’t listening to their needs or taking time to understand their health concerns, and this sometimes leads to disastrous consequences—even death. These healthcare gaps are part of a feedback loop where many Black Americans find themselves. Many times, it starts with a huge imbalance in economic resources, which leads to a lack of access to healthy food, gyms, nutritional education, and as our guest today says, “places that are considered well.” Christina M. Rice is a wellness expert and chief experience officer of OMNoire, a social wellness community for Black women and women of color dedicated to living well. Christina shares about her own wellness experiences as a Black woman, and how finding yoga helped her realize the need for wellness spaces where Black women and women of color feel seen and welcome. Christina describes why it’s so important for everyone to prioritize the health of Black women and men. Tackling healthcare inequity may be daunting, but siblings everywhere must speak up and do our part to amplify voices of color so that Black bodies are allowed to flourish.
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God created a beautiful world, filled with people who share love, creativity, friendship and hope in all kinds of ways. For thousands of years, some have tried to use religion to wield power and authority over people around the globe, claiming “their” way was the “right” way to gain access to God. That’s how the seeds of religious trauma are sown. And through generations, we’ve seen members of the white American Christan church push Black and brown people away from the center of the church’s stories in an attempt to gain control over those cultures. But as justice educator and equity consultant Alicia Crosby reminds us, we gain so much when we center stories that have been pushed to the margins, when we allow ourselves to be curious about ourselves and other cultures. Alicia shares her own history in the church as a Black queer woman, and how, after her “burn it all down” phase, she’s learned to embrace the beauty of who she is and how she chooses to express her faith in God’s love for her. Jen and Alicia dive into why it’s important to create protective spaces for affinity groups of all kinds (everything from parents, to race and cultural groups, to LGBTQ+ spaces), and why sitting down at the table is the most equalizing force in our universe.
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Want a sneak peek into the book club of your dreams? Then allow us to present: the Jen Hatmaker Book Club! From time to time, we’ll drop in with what we’re reading in hopes you’ll join us at jenhatmakerbookclub.com—because we know you’ll love it. This month's book has been an over-the-top experience for all of us. We read No Happy Endings by Nora McInerny, and it’s resonated from top to bottom in our community. Nora makes a living talking to people about life's hardest moments, and she speaks from experience. She lost her second baby, her father, and her young husband over the course of six weeks when she was 31 years old. Yet, she’s chosen to channel her grief into two bestselling memoirs and a stellar podcast called Terrible, Thanks for Asking. She’s a master storyteller who brings heart, transparency, and even levity to the most difficult and uncomfortable conversations that most of us spend our lives trying to avoid. And through it all, Nora’s a reliable, trustworthy guide as we journey along our own suffering and grief and loss.
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As lawyer and activist Bryan Stevenson puts it, slavery never actually ended—it just evolved, and today it looks like mass incarceration. In the past fifty years, we’ve seen the prison population skyrocket from 200,000 in 1970 to 2.2 million in 2020. In fact, America holds just 5% of the world’s population but more than 25% of the world’s prisoners, where the Black population clock in five times the rate of inmates as the white population. It is imperative that our generation abolish the overcriminalization of Black women, children, and men. And today we’re learning a bit more from CeCe Jones-Davis on how to bring that world to fruition. She’s an activist, a worship leader, and a teacher of social gospel who’s made it her mission to expose the underbelly of the US criminal justice system as she fights for the freedom of a man she believes has been wrongfully convicted: Julius Jones. CeCe also shares the influences who showed her the way toward pursuing justice and life experiences that broke her heart and gave her a passion to advocate for others. CeCe reminds us that realigning the gears of the justice system is too big a task for one person to bear alone—but if we each pick up our small piece, it’s a load we can carry together.
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Today we open a new chapter of For the Love, where we’ll celebrate the beauty, wholeness, and dignity of Black Lives. At the same time, we’ll also explore the roots of the recent growing advocacy and racial reckoning with experts who will guide us through different facets of what it’s like to be Black in America—in education, health, culture, the church. We’ll unpack how the Black experience differs from the white experience, with true understanding of the gaps in these collective experiences becoming the catalyst for necessary change. Leading off this series is Alencia Johnson, who is the chief impact officer and founder of 1063 West Broad, a company focusing on social impact, brand engagement, and communication strategy (you may remember Alencia from the #sharethemicnow campaign, when she took over Jen’s Instagram to share some deep truths). Alencia helps us examine the intersectionality of racism and gender as she unspools more than 400 years of Black oppression in America, and helps us examine what our country could look like if we invested in the safety and health of ALL communities. Alencia longs to see action behind the words of those who have actual power to create change, and challenges us to implement that change swiftly to systems that uphold racism—and most importantly, sustain the change. Tackling some hard-hitting topics, Alencia touches on white fragility, voter suppression, and what “defunding the police” really means as she helps us imagine how our actions toward these problems might mirror the actions of an aggrieved, change-making, table-flipping Jesus in such a time as this.
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Since journalist (and now podcaster!) Jeff Chu came on the show in spring of 2019, we haven’t forgotten his poignant storytelling or his answer to the powerful question he’s asked himself since he was a kid: “Does Jesus really love me?” Jeff grew up immersed in a family of theologians, where knowing and sticking to the Bible’s rules were prized currency. As Jeff approached high school, he realized he was gay. Over time, while he prayed for God to change who he was, Jeff threw himself into his work to escape his inner turmoil and realized he was a gifted storyteller who loved talking with people from all walks of life. A few years ago, Jeff found himself on the road, searching for the answer to his long-held question across America as he interviewed everyone from nice church ladies to members of the Westboro Baptist Church. And as he talked to more and more people about their spiritual beliefs, he concluded that, yes—even though Jeff doesn’t feel like it some days—Jesus really does love us all. And if we actually believed He did, we would speak differently, tweet differently, love differently—in a nutshell, believing we’re loved would transform our lives. And don’t forget to check out Jeff’s brand-new podcast called “Evolving Faith,” which he’s co-hosting with FTL fan favorite Sarah Bessey!
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When lawyer-turned-writer Gretchen Rubin first came on the show in 2019, we were dazzled by the wisdom and tools she shared on how to live with more contentment, right where we are. A decade ago, Gretchen fancied herself a happy person. She had a job she liked, a husband and two daughters she loved, a life she enjoyed. But one day she found herself wondering, “Could I be happier?” So she set out to change her life—not in a blow-it-all-up-and-move-across-the-world kind of way, but with small steps over one year. Gretchen documented her experiment to live happier in the blockbuster New York Times bestseller The Happiness Project, and has inspired millions to improve their lives and find contentment. Jen and Gretchen talk about why it’s okay to pursue happiness in a world filled with hard things, and the little ways we can reach for a richer, more satisfying life. Gretchen shows how easy it is to work “happiness habits” into our lives (Jen adopted one immediately after this interview!) and how these small steps can yield big, long-term results. And don’t forget to check out Gretchen’s latest book Outer Order, Inner Calm.
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When our third Summer Best Of teacher speaks, people listen—and we couldn’t forget the powerful words she shared on For the Love in 2019. Raised a Southern Baptist, as she grew older Kaitlin Curtice began to explore her family’s rich history in the Potawatomi Citizen Band. Kaitlin tells us what life is like as an indigenous woman in the United States today, how she’s teaching her kids about their heritage and how we can rally around teachers of color during their hardest moments. Kaitlin reminds us we have a responsibility to incorporate a wide range of voices into our world and remember the power of empathizing with an experience different from our own. One of the most poignant lessons she gives us: God is is inviting us into the sacred, and it’s not in a far-off sunbeam or reserved for the church pew—the sacred is all around us, from the daffodils on the street corner to the popsicle-stained smile of our kid, even as we are consoled in our pain and grief. God’s glory is in everyone and everything. We only need eyes to see it. Be sure to check out her new book “Native.”
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Our second Summer Best Of guest is a teacher who taught us how to embrace peace with others, but also within ourselves. Osheta Moore is a writer, speaker, podcaster, and a faith groundbreaker. She’s also a powerful leader on racial reconciliation and equality, and through it all, she teaches that God wants each of us to be whole, vibrant, and flourishing. In her book and podcast called Shalom Sistas, Osheta breaks down 12 ways we can turn “shalom” into an action. She shows us how to become peacemakers in our everyday lives—not just with each other, but with ourselves and with God. Osheta shows us that peace is more than just a feeling. It’s the belief that God created us perfectly, just as we are, and the bodies that we live and practice shalom in, from the color of our skin to the shape of our hips, are wholly good.
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Ever wish you had a toolkit tailor-made to get you through 2020? Us too. That’s why we pulled together a few of our favorite teachers who have graced the podcast over the years, so we can brush up on the important lessons they taught us and tools they gave us to meet this moment. First up is the matriarch of our favorite “What is saving your life right now?” question—Barbara Brown Taylor! Barbara is a New York Times bestselling author, teacher, and Episcopal priest, and she came on the show during our “For the Love of Exploring Our Faith” series in 2018. Her book Learning to Walk in the Dark was featured on the cover of TIME Magazine, and in 2014, TIME also included her on its annual list of Most Influential People (PS she also appeared on Super Soul Sunday with Oprah, so no big deal). Long a favorite author of Jen’s, Barbara has a unique way of sharing essential truths about beauty and about God, and shows us that it cannot be contained inside any walls that people build. Her view is that Jesus “placed higher value on human relationships than on religion. He never told His followers to love their religion—just their neighbors, their enemies, and God."
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To close our spectacular Enneagram series, last but certainly not least (we promise, Nines!), we’re diving into the earnest and endearingly sincere Peacemakers with Jen’s wonderful friend and all-around good human, author Sarah Bessey. Fondly called the crown of the Enneagram, Type Nines have the gift to be fully empathetic, to love and accept without judgement because they can see others as made in God’s image. For a Nine, everyone belongs. This type may seem slow to move sometimes—that’s because they’re content to live in this very moment. Sarah demonstrates the ways that Nines can be mediators, but she also shares how a Nine’s shadow side leans away from conflict and into numbness and routine, pushing them to be a little sloth-like. In their unhealthiest state, a Nine’s identity morphs into whoever’s surrounding them at the moment. But as they grow, Nines realize they don’t have to sacrifice who they are just to keep the peace—their voices are valuable and deserve to be heard. Stay tuned ‘til the end to hear how Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping at Last) created a piece that was extremely vulnerable and painfully honest, as he had to confront his own weaknesses as a type Nine in order to grow into his full potential.
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Make way for the Enneagram Eights! On this week’s episode, we get to chat with not one, but two experts about the steely armor and tender insides that make up The Challengers, as they’re sometimes called. Sarajane Case of Enneagram & Coffee helps us unpack the hallmark characteristic of an Eight—their strength—and reveals that an Eight’s strength typically stems from childhood happenings that trigger the notion that they have to take care of themselves, which they can also wrap around their loved ones and those in need. This protective instinct means that Eights aren’t intimidated by opposition, but they do fear being betrayed or controlled—and when that happens, it can appear that Eights don’t need a shoulder to lean on. But, as Sarajane shows us, in order to love an Eight well, they need to see strength in us so that they can release the heavy responsibility they feel to carry the world’s weight on their shoulders. Abi Robins of Conscious Enneagram shares their expertise as not only an Eight themselves, but also as a teacher of The Narrative Enneagram. Abi also breaks down a new-to-us Enneagram term called “subtypes,” of which there are three—self-preservation, one-to-one, and social—and shows how these subtypes affect the way our Enneagram numbers play out in the world. Abi opens up about the incredible resilience that Eights possess and vulnerably shares what type Eight growth looks like to someone with a marginalized identity. Abi explains that a heated exchange that may look like an argument to some types is just a problem-solving, connective conversation to an Eight, and how that willingness to engage with an Eight, even when it’s messy, is the key to unlocks an Eight’s trust. Make sure you listen all the way through the hear how composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping at Last) created a piece as strong as the Eights are, with a little touch of vulnerability that those who are close to Eights are lucky enough to glimpse.
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Enneagram Sevens! You can’t say it without an exclamation point, right? This week we look at what many consider to be the most “fun” number on the Enneagram—known as The Enthusiasts for good reason! To guide us is a true Seven among Sevens and friend of the podcast, Bob Goff. Bob is a man of many hats—attorney, honorary consul, author, and humanitarian, to name a few. He’s here to share about the power of a Seven’s joy, their ability to have big dreams and ideas, and that a Seven’s enthusiasm isn’t as spontaneous as you would think—there’s planning and thought behind it. As part of the thinking triad, these joyful strategists are full of situational awareness. They’re in tune with examining why they do the things they do, but they also carry a deep fear of rejection. Sevens possess a beautiful, natural curiosity about possibilities. They’re excellent at saying, “Let’s just see what will happen . . .” and they’re brave enough to take those chances. Sevens strive for meaning, not just surface-level joy. As Jen puts it, “These are people that really come alongside the rest of us and go, ‘What's your dream? You can do this.’” Also, if you stick around to the end of the episode, you’ll be delighted to hear composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping at Last) talk about how he crafted a piece for Sevens inspired by Disney classics like Peter Pan and Inside Out—and you’ll hear Bob Goff himself, who contributed his own ukulele stylings to the piece (such a Seven thing to do!).
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On this incredibly meaningful, special bonus episode of For the Love, in honor of Pride Month, a mother and daughter come together to have a frank and beautiful conversation about what it’s like to grow up as the daughter of a popular Christian author and speaker and in a household steeped in the church . . . and realize you’re gay. This is Jen and Sydney Hatmaker’s experience—and in this episode, Sydney and her mom tell their story so that parents, family, and friends of LGBTQ+ kids who need trustworthy voices to lead them into love and affirmation will find hope here. Sydney bravely and tenderly shares how she grappled with reconciling her sexuality and her spirituality, all the while wondering if God would still love her if she decided to build a life where she could be who she was meant to be. The pair candidly discuss Sydney’s initial silent journey and Jen’s deep regret at not being more aware of what her daughter needed during these early days as Sydney wrestled alone with who she was. Jen and Sydney make a call to Christians to look at what it means to really love our LGBTQ+ family: recognizing them wholly as God’s children, who are wholly loved by God. Sydney also gives us insight into how we can come alongside our LGBTQ+ family by showing us what meaningful allyship looks like: supporting and protecting those who are subject to marginalization with tangible actions filled with love.
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On today’s peek behind the Enneagram curtain, we get to learn all about Type Sixes—the Loyalists—and what makes them tick. Graphic designer, Enneagram artist, and Disney cast member Ashton Brye shares how she discovered the Enneagram, applied her own artistic and pop culture spin on it, and voila! Her Instagram following @ashton.creates skyrocketed, all born out of her desire to learn more about all the Enneagram types. As a Six herself, Ashton breaks down for us how Sixes have a deep longing for safety and security, which they find through preparedness. Unfortunately, that need to be on top of things can often be mistakenly labeled for anxiety and fear. Sixes are crazy loyal and responsible, and they value structure. As Ashton shares, when a Six goes in on something, they go all in--which is why they make excellent friends. Ashton talks a little bit about how it’s hard for Sixes to turn their minds off and relax without thinking about what needs to get done in the future, that for Sixes, it’s a balance of learning what can wait. In conflict, like in everything else they do, Sixes are all in, and they crave reassurance from others that you aren’t going to leave them. And PS: don’t forget to stick around until the end of the episode to hear composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping at Last) talk about how he crafted a soothing, safe, and whimsical musical piece inspired by type Sixes.
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Today we begin a deep dive into the head triad, starting with Type Fives—the Investigators. And because there’s so much to learn about the complex Fives, we have not one but two guests to share their input: Enneagram expert Dr. Avon Manney, and podcaster/author/Enneagram Five Knox McCoy. Dr. Avon (a Nine married to a Five!) shares how she started applying the Enneagram to her osteopathy practice so she could help patients heal emotional issues that were manifesting in her patients’ bodies. She talks about how Fives are explorers who want to know how and why things work the way they do. Taking Dr. Avon’s insights a step further and giving us a peek under the hood, Knox explains how that exploration shows up in his own life—as a Five, he’s motivated to make sure he shows up as competent and prepared in every situation. Knox also breaks down something Fives suffer from called “catastrophic depletion,” which basically means Fives have a limited energy reservoir, and once it’s gone for the day, it is gone. As profoundly efficient fixers, Fives possess a beautiful clarity of thought, a thirst for knowledge, and an unparalleled loyalty for those they love. And just wait until you make it to the end, when we hear from composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping At Last), about how he completed a music piece inspired by Fives—his longest piece in the whole series!
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In light of the uprisings of the past weeks, it is not enough to perform wokeness. We need true solidarity. True solidarity requires an understanding of the historical and cultural roots and current-day patterns of white women’s betrayals of people of color. It will also require repair. This is a raw, honest, informative, solidarity-building conversation with author and Freedom Road founder and president Lisa Sharon Harper.
Our Enneagram series continues with another type who rounds out the heart triad: the beautifully complex Type Fours (also known as The Romantics). To lead us on all things Type Four, we have an incredible returning guest: a Four himself, Ian Morgan Cron. Ian wears many hats—Enneagram expert, author of The Road Back to You, host of Typology Podcast, priest and psychotherapist, to name a few—and his Fourness is revealed in his beautiful, open posture toward humanity. He walks us through how Fours believe that they have an “unredeemable deficiency,” how they feel a little different and off-center, and have a vague dissatisfaction with themselves. Typically seen as the most complex of all the Enneagram numbers, Fours seek to be special in some way to fill this inner void, and the road to being a healthy Four is when they realize that “specialness” isn’t their sole path to being loved. Ian shares personally his experience that the superpower of a Four is emotional intuitiveness and empathy; Fours are equipped to come alongside people in their dark moments and walk through the suffering with them, and they tend to gravitate towards spaces in which they can uniquely contribute to conversation. Conversely, Fours in conflict tend to withdraw, and Ian shares how they can be lovingly drawn out. And don’t forget to stick around until the end to hear from composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping At Last), who shares his process for crafting a music piece as uniquely complex as Type Fours.
The next stop on the For the Love of The Enneagram train takes us to the land of the Enneagram Threes (also known as The Achievers). Leading us today are two Threes—someone you may know named Jen Hatmaker who’s a Three, and Lisa Whelchel. Lisa’s an actor (you may know her best as Blair from the ‘80s sitcom “The Facts of Life”), author, speaker, and life coach who is not only a Three herself, but who also raised a Three, and she’s just walked through a twelve-year journey of deconstructing and reconstructing everything about her life: everything she knows and everything she believed about herself and her faith. She’s dismantled so many internal walls that now, in her words, the love can flow without blocks. Lisa has bravely stepped out of safety and security in the pursuit of being whole, though her natural instincts told her to hide from the shame and fear she felt. She’s learned to overcome crowd-pleasing in order to live her own truth and be her most authentic self, and she shares what it looks like to be in a marriage and in conflict with someone of this type. And stay tuned at the end to hear from composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping At Last), who shares his thoughts behind the music he created for the incredibly special Enneagram Three in his life.
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Our next installment of For the Love of The Enneagram brings us to wonderful Enneagram Twos (aka The Helpers!). And leading our discussion is Phileena Heuertz, a spiritual director and Enneagram expert who, as a Two herself, knows how it feels to love others and want to help them as much as she can, while at the same time longing to feel accepted for who she is, not necessarily what she does for others. Years ago, after Phileena began to study the Enneagram a bit more and felt deeply seen by it, she began to ask herself some deep, probing questions about her Twoness: What is my motivation for serving others? Am I doing it to fulfill my need to be loved? If I stop serving you, will you still love me? And finally, Phileena realized she could find true freedom once she gave herself permission to take care of her own needs so that she could be her happiest, healthiest, and most authentic self—which would help her care for others even more deeply. Also featured in this episode is composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping At Last), who shares his thoughts behind the music he created for the special Enneagram Twos in his life.
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Last week, we launched our brand-new Enneagram series, and today we begin our deep-dive into each of the nine numbers. We’re starting right at the top with Enneagram Ones—and who’s better to talk about Ones than with For the Love favorite, Fr. Richard Rohr? While we’ve been obsessed with the Enneagram for only a few years, Fr. Richard has been studying it for decades, and he has keen insight into the personality assessment. As a One himself, Fr. Richard opens the door into what it’s like to live inside the head of a One, and how even from an early age, Ones work so hard to be dependable, solutions-driven people. After years of trying to solve the world’s problems, Fr. Richard found freedom when he realized he couldn’t—and that was okay (plus, he found his relationships could be richer when he learned to enjoy being right without proclaiming to be right). Whether you’re a One, you love a One, or you’re raising a One, Fr. Richard’s insights are revelatory as he speaks about the motivations behind the type, how to approach conflict with Ones, and what it feels like to constantly have a critic inside your own head. And be sure to stick around to hear from composer Ryan O’Neal (AKA Sleeping At Last) and listen to his thoughts behind the music he crafted specifically for Ones, which appears all throughout this episode.
Jen’s new book, “Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire” is out now!
http://fierceandfreebook.com
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Good people of the internet and faithful For the Love listeners—you’ve asked, we’ve listened, and we are thrilled to invite you to our brand-new series on one of our favorite topics: The Enneagram personality assessment! Whether you’re a seasoned Ennea-thusiast or a complete newbie, you’re going to want to plug into this deep dive with Enneagram expert (and a Type 2 herself), Suzanne Stabile! Suzanne and Jen walk through the ins and outs of each of the nine Enneagram numbers, while Suzanne gives piercingly accurate insight on the motivations behind each personality type. Plus, Suzanne shares how we can learn to use the Enneagram as the ultimate empathy tool, as it helps us listen to and treat others in the way that they need, not in the way that we need. Suzanne and Jen agree that knowing yourself and others through identifying your type can revolutionize our relationships with our spouses, parents, kids, friends, coworkers—everyone. And be sure to check out the whole series featuring a deep dive into every number type over 9 episodes!
Jen’s new book, “Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire” is out now!
http://fierceandfreebook.com
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Who would we be if we weren’t afraid? What would our lives look like if we pushed aside our greatest fears and let curiosity lead the way? Today we’re wrapping the Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire series with one of the world’s greatest teachers on how to live in the beauty of freedom: award-winning writer and all-around good human, Elizabeth Gilbert. Liz has opened her life and poured her lessons generously into masterpieces on creative living like Eat, Pray, Love and Big Magic, plus her latest work, the gorgeous novel City of Girls. Today Liz feeds our souls by giving us permission to throw away words like “passion” and “purpose” and “balance” (which, let’s be honest, are stifling) so that, instead, we can lower the stakes and allow ourselves the delight of discovery.
Jen’s new book, “Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire” is out now!
http://fierceandfreebook.com
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Have you ever wanted to be part of an actual book club? One that actually reads the book instead of just providing classy cover for wine drinking? (well, okay, there’s still a little wine drinking) Then seriously, you need to join the Jen Hatmaker Book Club! Every month, Jen sends you one of her favorite books (along with a box of goodies!), and sits down with the book’s author for a podcast that’s exclusive for members . . . until TODAY! Because the April author of the month is none other than one Ms. Jennifer Hatmaker, who wrote a brand-new book you may have heard a little something about called Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire. So to celebrate, Jen and her ride-or-die girlfriends Trina, Shonna, and Jenny hopped on Skype to talk about all the hard lessons and laughs they’ve had as they’ve lived out the pages of Fierce together. Jen and the gang talk about how they met, which friend can claim eternal credit for pushing Jen into creating a sphere of influence, how they’ve learned to love their bodies and make friendships last and trust themselves to create a life that’s worthy of the women full of fire they’ve been called to be.
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Fierce women are all around us—we are them, we raise them, we’ve been mentored by them. But lifestyle expert and entrepreneur Camila McConaughey takes that to a new level by cultivating a loving, open, supportive community called Women of Today. The ultimate example of a fierce woman, Camila moved independently from Brazil to the U.S. at only fifteen, determined to take the world by storm. After stumbling into modeling, Camila hustled, and she hustled hard. She lived her life to the very fullest, experiencing all she could, because those life moments are things that can never be taken away. She clung to faith to keep the discouragement at bay when things got hard, and she prayed diligently for God to reveal her bigger mission: “You take me where I’m supposed to go.” She’s a proponent of the spirit of trying, the experience of living, and innovating in every way possible, and she’s on the show to share what magic can happen when we’re comfortable and confident enough in our own skin that we can turn our efforts to the other women around us who need to be lifted. *
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Right now, we’re capable of so much more than surviving. We can thrive right now if we dig deep and we put our hand to this work. Award-winning ABC News correspondent Paula Faris, who also hosts the Journeys of Faith podcast, has just undergone an enormous self-transformation, right before all this COVID-19 craziness started happening, so she guides us through the waters here. She tells us how she’s leaning into her true purpose and how we use this season to discover ours. As co-anchor of Good Morning America Weekend and the co-host of The View, Paula was living her best life--or so she thought--because even though she had her dream job, she didn’t have her dream life. Fear haunted her when she first stepped into her career, and then again when stepping out of it, and she shares how facing that fear helped her realign her priorities and led to inner peace. In this season, it helps to be realistic with our expectations and our workload; focusing on practicality and giving ourselves (and our loved ones) grace. Like Paula, we can hit the reset button and consider where we are, what’s next, and where we want to go from here.
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Think about the day quarantine is over (dare we dream?). What will our lives look like? Who will we be? Is it possible that maybe, ever so gently, we can start taking a small inventory of what’s been serving us, and what we want to let go of? Leading us through these questions is the wise and witty Sheri Salata, former executive producer of The Oprah Winfrey Show, former co-president of Harpo Network and OWN. One day, Sheri woke up at age 57 and discovered that while she had the career of her dreams, she didn’t have the life of her dreams—and she embarked on a journey to reverse those roles, which she talks about in her most excellent book, The Beautiful No. Sheri walks us through how to recognize when you’re living in deliberate unconsciousness, why it’s never too late to dream a new dream, and how committing to radical self-care is a surefire way to change your life for the better. Sheri reminds us that we’re not worthy because of what we achieve—we are worthy simply because of who we are.
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Our next “Fierce” guest is coming in hot! The dynamite leader of the Own It Academy, Jordan Lee Dooley, takes the mic to push us to ponder what our true dreams really are and how we can start to own them—even if we have to take steps outside of our comfort zone box (or the box that others have put us in!). And Jordan doesn’t just talk about chasing dreams—she’s a woman who walks behind her words. Jordan reveals how she forged her own path from Etsy shop owner to business educator, author, and podcaster by daring to take chances and try different career paths as she honed her gift for communication. And Jordan realized as she gave herself permission to try new things, she kept herself open to discover all the seemingly random skills weren’t meaningless—they could be woven together to create a phenomenal career to help women all over the globe. Jordan and Jen talk through what it means to pivot well and why finding our passion actually isn’t the biggest task of our lives—it’s recognizing what our skills are, and using them to contribute help humankind flourish. Jordan reminds us that our job is not to accomplish things—it’s to leave behind a legacy of relationships and love as integrated women who know themselves and help others know themselves, too.
We’re all struggling with resentment right now—separation from family and friends, lost jobs and furloughs, cancelled graduations and vacations, and even struggling to come up with grace for the people living right inside our very houses. But our guest today, New York Times bestselling author Katherine Schwarzenegger Pratt, reminds us how healing and freeing it can be to wrap this season—and the rest of our lives—in forgiveness, even when it’s incredibly hard to encounter our pain and try to let it all go. Katherine’s spent the last few years in the quest to understand forgiveness after a terrible rift with a close friend. And in her journey, she talked to more than 20 people from all walks of life who have encountered tragedy and personal demons—everyone from headline-making names like Elizabeth Smart to friend-of-the-podcast Nadia Bolz-Weber. Katherine recorded her conversations and insights in her brand-new book The Gift of Forgiveness. Katherine’s words will fill you with hope because, as she says, “When we learn to embrace forgiveness, it opens us up to healing, hope, and a new world of possibility.”
Quarantine Queens is back with another episode as we continue to muddle through this weird time of isolation and the ongoing search for the elusive “new normal,” including; when is it okay to take a break from the seriousness of it all to have fun and laugh? Enter this week’s guest, best-selling author and award winning comedian Jim Gaffigan. Like Jen, Jim is quarantining with his spouse and 5 kids, but unlike Jen, they literally can’t go one step out the door—as Jim describes it—“taking out the trash is my ‘me’ time.” Like so many of us, Jim and his family are navigating completely unknown territory where questions of “what’s next” with jobs, school, trips and obligations remain vague at best—and he’s graciously invited us to take a peek at how his family is handling it all with his hilarious online series “Dinner with The Gaffigans.” If you think you deserve a parade because you cooked 3 meals for your family in a day while in quarantine, or because you changed a water filter without calling anyone, Jim and Jen are your staunch advocates. Ultimately, they discuss what they hope we’ll walk away with from this unsettling season, and Jim even gives Jen a pep talk about the pros and cons of launching a new book during a pandemic.
The For the Love world is totally upside-down today, y’all. Jen is a guest on her own podcast, and gets interviewed about her new book, Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire, by the ever-so-magical Melissa Radke! Jen reveals the first outlier women who made lasting impressions on her: watching how they lived in her own skins in a way that didn't fit the template Jen had been prescribed from her conservative upbringing. The two talk about growing up in the church and the messaging they received about who they should be as women, and the hard work of pushing past those boundaries to become the women they were designed to be. Listen as Melissa pulls an “Oprah” on Jen, how some of Jen’s words made Melissa “mad,” and how they both are learning to discover who they are and how to love every part of themselves (and we can too). Finding a sense of belonging to ourselves, uncovering who we are and what we want, is the start of the journey to becoming Fierce, Free and Full of Fire.
What do you do when you believe God is good, that He has a plans to give us hope and a future, and yet the reality of what we’re living is . . . well, it’s hard. And sad. So how do we reconcile having hard feelings and holding onto faith? Times like these call for experts who’ve walked hard paths before, and we have that leader in the incredible Kate Bowler, an associate professor at Duke Divinity School and NYT bestselling author of Everything Happens for a Reason: And Other Lies I’ve Loved. After Kate walked through a Stage IV cancer diagnosis at 35 years old, she’s gained some hard-earned wisdom that she she shares abundantly, like how to manage our moments when we can’t plan for the future (spoiler alert: look for signs of hope in the in-between space). Plus, Kate reminds us that the language of the Christian faith isn’t always self-improvement—there’s a purpose to our pain, and it’s something we need to talk about, because we can be scared and still be faithful. Let’s be honest: we’re living through a really hard season. But even right now, God is still here with us.
Parents, we’re trying our best here. Who’d have ever thought we’d find ourselves in the middle of a pandemic, trying to help our offspring navigate a world we don’t really know how to wade through ourselves? Two of our fellow parents, blogger Jessica Turner and children’s book author Matthew Paul Turner, share how they’re managing all the moving pieces, and how they’re trying to balance structure with whimsy to keep kids on track. The Turners also give us the scoop on which tools and resources that are helping them navigate life with their three kids from pre-K to 5th grade (spoiler alert: subscription boxes are worth their weight in gold). As busy working parents, Jessica and Matthew remind us that we can put away the expectations for perfect homeschooling (scratch that, crisis schooling) or perfect anything, really, and trust that being present and hopeful in this new season will carry us through.
Our next guest in our Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire series is—get ready—Queer Eye’s delightful design guru Bobby Berk. Bobby walks us through the backstory we’ve all gotten glimpses of on TV: how he left home at 15, after realizing he was gay and knowing he would struggle against rejection and hatred in his small hometown. This began a tough journey where he worked multiple jobs, slept in his car, moving to Denver then eventually NYC, where he worked his way up at various design retailers before opening his own acclaimed design business. Bobby gives us the inside scoop on the nail-biting process of becoming part of the Fab 5 (and why Jonathan thinks Bobby would be the first to go in a zombie apocalypse!), and what gives him joy and fire being part of that crew and changing lives around the globe. Bobby tells us there’s enough love and success to go around, and in the spirit of reversing lies we’ve been told about ourselves, Bobby refuses to accept that we all aren’t capable of success. As Bobby’s story illustrates, we can make our dreams happen if we freely and fiercely go after them.
More than ever, now’s the time we can dust off the books we’ve been meaning to read for forever and conquer our literary dreams. But what if your dreams of tackling War & Peace are too much right now and you just need a quick escape? What about books that pre-teens and teens stuck at home can pour themselves into—even for the kids who don’t find their noses in a book too often? The Queen of Books, aka Anne Bogel of Modern Mrs. Darcy, graces the podcast once again with some cozy book suggestions that’ll help you take your mind off things (or the other people living in your house). And Anne’s just released a book of her own that’s super timely for the world we’re living in right now called Don’t Overthink It: Make Easier Decisions, Stop Second-Guessing, and Bring More Joy. She walks us through how to “change the channel” in our brains and gives us a few tips on how to spread joy and hope while we’re confined, like helping small local businesses right from your couch.
Now that so many of us are figuring out what it looks like to be home all the time, we also find ourselves cooking, cooking, cooking. Whether you’ve got a family of seven like Jen, or are cooking for one, the temptation to stress eat (Doritos anyone? chased by some Haagen Dazs?) is strong. And conversely, so is the pressure to feed yourself and family well during a time of crisis when budgets may be under assault and grocery store trips aren’t as fruitful as they used to be. We have just the person to guide us through what to stock in our pantries during such a time as this--Nom Nom Paleo’s Michelle Tam. Michelle, along with her lawyer husband Henry, have created a delicious and whimsical food brand that includes an award winning blog, app and best selling cookbooks. And lest you think that Michelle’s pantry is filled with almond flour, ghee, and kale chips, she admits to us that there might be a can of Spam or two in the mix. With grace and humor, she gives tips on what we can easily procure for our pantries to create delicious, filling and affordable meals, but assures us that you’re not a food failure if your kids get hot dogs every once in a while.
We’re THRILLED to launch our new “Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire” series, and our first guest lives all three of those traits in such an inspiring way. Glennon Doyle is the #1 New York Times bestselling author of Love Warrior and Carry On, Warrior and she’s back with her rawest book yet: Untamed, which explores how women untangle themselves from the lies they’ve been told about their bodies, their voices, their minds and their places in the world. Glennon’s also an activist, and she’s the founder and president of Together Rising, an all-woman-led nonprofit that has raised over $22 million for women and children in crisis. Glennon recounts her own “untaming” through an unblinking examination of her upbringing, her first marriage, and her struggles with an eating disorder and alcoholism. She encourages all of us to examine what we want and implores us to lean into those things—not letting anyone tell us that what we want isn’t achievable. Glennon believes that because what most women want is true and beautiful, if we chased all we wanted, “dreams would be realized. Corrupt governments would topple. Institutions would fall so that we could rebuild lives and relationships and nations that are built on justice.”
On the best days, people are, well, a lot. They have feelings, they have opinions, they have needs—and as “responsible adults,” we have so many people relying on us at one time that sometimes it can feel like we cannot crumble, because who on earth knows what would happen if we did? Add in a virus, some upended lifestyles, extroverts and introverts forced indoors together, and well . . . let’s just say we need some guidance on how to get through this pandemic with our sanity intact. Thankfully, one of Jen’s favorite experts is here to lend a hand (and when we say favorite, we mean she’s quoted the book he co-authored, Boundaries, in at least six of her books): psychologist and NYT bestselling author Dr. John Townsend! Jen and Dr. Townsend go deep into all the pressure points we’re seeing in our relationships right now: how parents can walk teens through their hard feelings, how to spouses can learn to talk through their frustrations (especially since introverts and extroverts are responding so differently right now), even how to draw boundaries in a house where you’re stuck with a bunch of other people. Dr. Townsend’s chockfull of practical tips on how to emotionally care for ourselves and our loved ones well, even during a crisis.
You’re stuck at home with nowhere to go, with people you loved before you learned you were married to the guy who says, “Let’s take this convo offline,” or discovered your human limit for watching Frozen 2 on repeat is approximately 72 hours. When our normal routines get out of whack, so do our bodies—and our minds are soon to follow. Therapist, researcher, and podcaster Dr. Hillary McBride—guest of our most-listened-to episode of 2019—is back to walk us through the stress we’re feeling and how to move our bodies through Big Feelings. With her soothing voice and warm personality, Hillary guides us through why this particular season of newness is so hard for us (news flash: new things take a lot of energy). Plus Hillary gives us practical tips on how to stay mentally healthy during this hard time, like how to understand what we’re actually feeling in this moment, how to heal our anxious feelings, and why setting boundaries is one of the most caring things you can do for yourself and others.
We’re wrapping our Live Podcast series on a high note with leadership trainer, international speaker, and author Jo Saxton. Jo graced us with her guidance in an early podcast series (one of our favorites) called “ For the Love of Women Who Built It.” And now she’s back to share her invaluable work to help women learn to become better leaders in every facet of of their lives. Jo talks about “the hunger of the how” when we are trying to figure out how to be “unstuck” and encourages us to evaluate why we feel stuck (could it be that we’re afraid to move?). And to get unstuck, Jo encourages us to tell our stories. In fact, as Jo notes, throughout history women weren’t able to tell their stories to inspire us—and she wants to make up for lost time by helping us unpack our own. Jo reiterates that there’s room for us all and that women should advocate, recommend, and introduce the women they admire to each other—because individually and collectively, we can each go after our dreams with no apologies.
The For the Love Podcast is bringing you a series of special episodes as we all face the Coronavirus Pandemic and all the ways it’s impacting our lives. We’ll bring you inspiration, education, practical tips, humor & hope as we all face potential weeks of isolating due to the pandemic. Look for these episodes on Mondays and Fridays while we’re all hunkered down together.
Many of us are worried about the toll to the economy and to our own personal finances as we face reduced hours, changing work environments or elimination of our jobs altogether--plus added concerns that our investments and savings are at risk. Our guest for this episode is here to help us manage those fears and give us some practical ways to prepare our hearts and minds for managing finances in a crisis. Pete the Planner is a USA Today columnist and the CEO of Your Money Line and Hey Money. In his previous life, he was also an award winning comedian, so while we may feel like crying over potential money woes, Pete will give us hope and help us find something to laugh about too.
We’re on the road again with the For the Love Live Podcast Tour! And this stop reunites us with old friend and New York Times bestselling author Shauna Niequist. Shauna fills us in on her family’s big move from the Midwest to New York, and all the rewards and challenges of creating a life in the Big Apple. Shauna also confesses what it’s like to sit across from Queen Oprah while she asks you questions about words that you wrote in your very own book that Oprah herself has read cover to cover (!). Shauna closes the loop from the last time she visited For the Love and gives us the real skinny on the “alternative bra situation” story—apparently she wasn’t totally forthcoming last time (one word: “stickers.”) Shauna and Jen also take questions from the audience and offer poignant and sometimes hilarious advice, including Shauna’s words to anyone trying something new: “We’re not dumb, we’re just new. We’re not failing, we’re learning. We’re not falling behind, we’re beginning again.”
In the next stop of the For the Love Live Tour, our TV soulmates return! Knox McCoy and Jamie Golden of the ever delightful show, The Popcast, come back to tell us about more things that entertain but do not matter (and a few things that actually do!). Jen dives into Knox and Jamie’s back story and how they met on the internet back before our parents were on Facebook and people still asked Jeeves a question from time to time—plus they dish on their best business advice for people who want to start their own podcast. The trio talks about all things under the pop culture sun, like how to create a dream Hallmark movie, why Ariel is a garbage princess and why Ursula the Evil Sea Witch is Jamie’s personal hero. Plus, of course, the best TV you need to be bingeing right now! They also fill us in about their other podcast, The Bible Binge (it’s like if People Magazine told Bible stories) and how God can be found in pop culture —and how humor can be healing because, as Jamie says, “Sometimes you just need an hour to escape the dumpster fire.”
Join us on a virtual road trip for our very first For the Love Live Podcast Tour as Jen criss-crosses the country to talk to some of our very best leaders, teachers, and entertainers about literally everything under the sun. We couldn’t think of anyone we’d want to kick off this series more than friend of the show, Austin Channing Brown. Austin is a writer, a speaker, and an advocate for racial justice. She helps schools, nonprofits, and religious organizations learn to practice genuine inclusion and equality. You’ll remember Austin from our For the Love of Exploring Our Faith series where she shared her beautiful and haunting book I’m Still Here: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness. During this live conversation in Portland, Jen and Austin wrestle with some huge questions: What’s the best way to support people who have been systemically marginalized? How do we move voices and experiences of people of color at the center? And as we look at the vast landscape of social justice work, where do we even begin? Time and again, Austin forces us to ask ourselves, “What does loving our neighbor really mean?” and reminds us that justice work is hard—we’ll get doors slammed in our face. We’ll get our feelings hurt. But we’ll dust our shoulders off and keep on doing the work—because doing nothing is no longer an option, and peace and reconciliation is the end goal.
2020’s Faith series has brought us incredible leaders across decades, generations, denominations, and ideologies. We've listened to what makes them excited to be in the faith right now and what's been challenging. We've talked about ways to build a brighter, more beautiful church. As we wrap this series, we're going to dig in a little deeper to one specific place, and we’ve enlisted three faith leaders to help us navigate through a much-needed discussion. And these faith leaders are members of the LGBTQ+ community—because it is possible to be a part of a church that is passionate about Jesus and affirming to LGBTQ+ groups. Matthew Vines is the founder of the Reformation Project, a nonprofit that educates Christians about the biblical case for LGBTQ+ inclusion. He's also the author of “God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships.” Michael Vazquez is the director of the Human Rights Campaign Foundation's Religion and Faith Program in DC. He leads efforts there to advance equity initiatives in faith communities. B.T. Harman is a content creator and speaker. His blog and podcast “Blue Babies Pink” shed some beautiful light on what it is like to love Jesus, love the church, and be gay. Each of these men has deep commitment to their faith and to the church, and during their formative years, they had to reckon with the truth that they were gay—and they experienced the full spectrum of pain and discovery that so often comes with this particular journey. Today we ask some hard questions: what does it mean to hold one another and our faith leaders accountable? And when it comes to affirmation, what's public and what's private? How can we be the best allies for our LGBTQ+ friends? How can we listen and avoid “canceling” one another if we don’t agree, or are there times when it’s called for? Our conversation is fully open, filled with grace and understanding, helping us to view things from different perspectives in the most rewarding way possible.
Our guest in this continuation of our For the Love of Faith Icons series has conducted his faith leadership through a lens of love, sacrifice and goodness. Bishop Michael Curry is here to share his ideologies behind faith and what it means to live a life looking at Jesus. You’ve probably already heard of him without even knowing it: Bishop Curry had the honor of preaching at Meghan Markle and Prince Harry’s wedding. Of course, we had to ask him how he kept calm during that AMAZING moment, and he’ll share a bit about that, but the heart of what he’s here to say in this episode all comes down to one simple concept: love. The kind of love that he says “must move beyond being a sentiment to becoming a commitment—a commitment to seek the good and the welfare and the well-being of others as well as the self.” The kind of love that truly reflects the love of God. Bishop Curry provides a glimmer of hope in recognizing that even though we all tend toward vanity and selfishness, the desire to do good—the desire to seek God’s will—will propel us to love Him, love people and love ourselves.
One of the hardest challenges we face as humans is finding belonging, especially when we feel like we don’t fit in. People of faith don’t always get it right. Even though our intention is to say “all are welcome” in our churches, sometimes we miss the mark. On today’s episode, Jen talks with a faith leader who is leading the charge toward a different kind of faith space—founder of MOSAIC, Erwin McManus. After overcoming a rough past, for decades Erwin has been creating a community that fosters a true sense of belonging, a safe place for people who might be pushed to the margins in a traditional church—i.e. those who have big questions about their faith, or those who are just processing the concept of Jesus in an environment where the pressure to “make a commitment” is taken off and the teachings of Jesus are presented without a laundry list of other “sanctioned beliefs.” Erwin is one of our most creative thinkers in the faith, and today he opens up to Jen about working toward mental health, and why it’s so important to get a handle on what drains you and what replenishes you—AKA “energy management”—so that you can use your gifts and maximize your effectiveness. Above all else, Erwin’s goal is to embrace people as they are so that they can, in turn, embrace God.
Our For the Love of Faith Icons series wouldn’t be complete without one of Jen’s longtime inspirations and mentors: Beth Moore. After four decades of leadership as an author, speaker, and teacher, Beth has seen a lot and come through a lot, but she gracefully continues to be a relevant voice to new generations of women, helping them navigate the opportunities that have opened up for them, and leading them to push back against old challenges that persistently remain. It might appear that a faith icon as strong as Beth might herself be inoculated from faith crises—after all, her humor and thoughtful perspective have guided us through the valleys of our own faith for years. But she vulnerably admits that she never feels like she can get completely free from the “rocks” in her own life, which she explores in her new book Chasing Vines. Her beautiful analogies to the vineyard underscore her belief that no matter how rocky the soil we may find ourselves planted in, God has us there—and that soil will ultimately be fertile.
Our For the Love of Faith Icons series is going strong, and this week we’re diving into an issue we’ve probably all struggled with: how to act like a Christian when we’re riled up about our political views. Without even knowing it, each of us has likely been guilty of having the “I’m-right-and-everybody-who-doesn’t-agree-with-me-is-crazy” attitude when it comes to politics. And today, we’re here to get a little help on how we can engage in politics with civility and openness not only as believers, but as good citizens in general. Eugene Cho, the founder of Quest Church and the non-profit One Day’s Wages, gives his pastoral view on how, if we can keep loving God and loving others as our guiding principles, we’ll be better equipped to engage in civil and productive conversations (and PS: it won’t send us spiraling down to political/moral ruin to listen to a contrary opinion). Cho emphasizes that when we surround ourselves with people who don’t look, think, feel, or vote like us, we are following Jesus’ commandment to “love our neighbor.” And it matters how we engage, Cho reminds us, because “politics matter. Because politics inform policies that impact real human people created in the image of God.”
Are y’all ready to go to church? Because in this episode of our For the Love of Faith Icons series, author and activist Lisa Sharon Harper graces us once again with her singular wisdom and fire—and we are here. for. it. Lisa shares what’s been going on in her work since she appeared on the award-winning episode in 2018 that everyone is still talking about. She helps us make sense of the innumerable tensions we see in the world right now between different communities and shines a light on the “narrative gap” that exists in our world: how one story affirms the experience of the powerful few, and another recognizes the dignity and worth of every single person in the world, including those on the margin. Lest we lose hope, Lisa shares a solution on the way reconnection can close this gap and calls us all to be as we were created to be: a “radically, interdependent web of love.”
It’s full steam ahead in For the Love of Faith Icons, and listen—grab your pens and your Kleenexes, because Jen’s dear friend Patsy Clairmont is equal parts wisdom and pure sunshine (and we want her to adopt us). A beloved speaker and author, Patsy is a founding member of the Women of Faith conferences, which Jen credits as changing the way she thought about women in ministry (Christian women can be gasp funny!). Patsy knows a thing or two about opening up and sharing from her own lived experiences to help someone else. Today she tells us about her dark days battling with agoraphobia and how, when she determined to change her mindset, she was able to step out of her house and onto dozens of stages a year to impact countless lives. And for those of us wondering how we can begin to make a difference in our world, Patsy gently pushes us to keep our eyes open, to flex our empathy muscles, and to be around people who are different from us—because what’s when we remember, as she says, “the pure thrill of being alive.”
Our “For the Love of Faith Icons” series continues with another leader who hails from a famous evangelical family and has blazed a trail to a new understanding of Christianity and where the Bible fits in: pastor, writer and speaker Andy Stanley. As he grew up as a preacher’s kid of a man who has iconic status in his own right, Dr. Charles Stanley, Andy was encouraged to find his own way to God and to ask hard questions without fear of recrimination. This freedom ultimately steered Andy into his own ministry, and he is still asking the hard questions on behalf of thousands of people who attend services across 6 campuses at Atlanta’s North Point Church, the 2nd largest church in the U.S. Andy and Jen discuss how folks who have been burned by the church or who are just burned out in their faith can take a step back toward Jesus and shed their religious baggage by realizing the basis of our faith is an event (the resurrection) and a person (Jesus), not just a book of rules. They also agree that the ancient truth of the Bible can stand up to our toughest questions and that curiosity and faith really can go hand in hand.
It’s a brand-new year, a brand-new decade—and a brand-new series! “For the Love of Faith Icons” finds Jen talking to some of the most well-loved leaders in the faith, the kinds of folks who have had a chance to see themselves and the world evolve spiritually, and who can handle our biggest questions while admitting they have their own. We couldn’t be more pleased to start off these inspiring and thought-provoking discussions with none other than the beloved pastor and speaker Max Lucado. For decades, Max has been leading us with warmth and good humor, gently asking us to think about who we are in the world as people of faith and what we’re striving to represent, especially in these divisive times. Max and Jen talk about some of the biggest issues on our minds—namely, what unity can look like among different groups who disagree with one another among believers and non-believers alike. Max implores us to work together to communicate, to love one another, and to model this for others. As Max says, “We can be respectful. We do not have the right to be arrogant and to point a finger. Of all the people who should not be arrogant it is those of us who believe we are saved by grace.”
Christmas holds so many truths all at once, as it has for thousands of years. And today, Jen’s friend, pastor Nadia Bolz-Weber, leads us to look with several new lenses at the story we’ve heard since we were toddling around in snowman footie pajamas. There’s the beauty of a young family shepherding a new life into the world, amid brutal oppression from a power-hungry empire. There’s the unwed teenage girl who’s told she will carry the savior of the world while a disdainful religious culture watches her belly swell. Through it all, we get a glimpse at Mary’s fierce desire to honor her Creator, and the tremendous power held in the way she accepts this divine assignment. As Nadia takes us through the Christmas story, she points out how God moves through the world by turning the notions of “power” and “blessing” upside down while lifting up the voiceless and the oppressed, reminding us that “being ‘blessed’ means seeing God in the world and trusting that God is at work even in things we can't see, understand, or imagine.”
As we continue the conversation about finishing strong for the year, we tap into a resource who clearly maps out a way we all can live happier and with more intention. Our friend Dave Hollis (husband to our other friend, Rachel!) had his dream job as president of distribution for The Walt Disney Company, where he worked 17 years. At the top of his game, Dave left Disney and moved with his family to Austin to form The Hollis Company, so he and Rachel could continue helping people live better lives. This move also began Dave’s personal journey to find his true purpose. Dave pulls no punches as he lays down his thoughts on finishing strong, based on hard lessons he’s learned as he’s left comfort zones, chosen to be vulnerable and tossed aside worrying what others think of him. As you might have guessed, this took Dave a bit of deliberation, forced reflection and a lot of sweat, but he assures us the results are worth it. Dave gives us paths toward gratitude and steps toward making meaningful changes in our lives that are as simple as recognizing what brings us joy and what doesn’t, and saying “yes” to the joy-giving things more often. As Dave says, “If you go on the hunt for gratitude every day, you will find evidence of it, and you will have a life that is full and different because of it.”
We’re kicking it with a legend today on our series For the Love of Finishing Strong: Olympic gold medalist and FIFA World Cup champ (and Jen’s good friend) Abby Wambach! Abby shares her road to soccer stardom and the lessons she picked up from great leaders along the way—like her coach Pia Sundhage, who showed Abby how powerful and holistic feminine leadership can be. Abby takes us on a journey through her life post-soccer and how she’s using structure and discipline in new ways to help her meet her goals. Together with her wife Glennon Doyle and their Wolfpack, Abby is showing the world what it looks like to bring your full, authentic, and vulnerable self to leadership and why it’s important to make sure everyone in the room is seen and has a voice. And at the end of the day, Abby reminds us that life isn’t about achieving gold medals or winning world championships—it’s about the journey and the people who are walking beside us along the way.
It’s the first episode of our Finishing Strong series! With the pressure of New Year’s resolutions and “new year, new you” mandates creeping just ‘round the corner, we’d like to focus on finishing this year (and this decade) with a bang, by giving ourselves time for reflection and the space to better wrap our heads around the future, thus absolving us all of that annoying January 1st deadline to fix everything in our lives (feel better? You’re welcome). And to help us do just that is our guest for this episode; speaker, author, entrepreneur, and just overall mentoring force for good in the world; Lewis Howes. Lewis takes us through his life story--from a childhood filled with pain and trauma, to a career in professional football, to becoming a high performance business coach--and all the missteps and lessons along the way. Speaking with candor and vulnerability, Lewis implores us, like he did, to let everything go from our pasts and to deal with the hurts and traumas in our life, in order to embrace a beautiful future.
Podcast Land’s giving-est couple Jen & Brandon are back with a slew of great gift ideas for the holidays on our 3rd Annual Hatmaker’s Favorite Things Holiday Gift Guide! Brennifer’s (we’re gonna get that “Super Couple” name to stick) giving us all the warm fuzzies by featuring 16 companies that not only make great products, but give back in significant ways to our communities, to people in need, and to the world. Our team has done the homework so you can feel good about all your gifts this year—PLUS the Hatmakers pulled a few strings so that For the Love Podcast listeners get amazing exclusive discounts from each company featured in the episode! From leather bags to soft blankets, from Jen-approved signature jewelry to wake-you-up-with-a-kick coffee, Jen & Brandon usher us into the holidays with their inimitable style and festive spirits. And don’t worry if you can’t write down these ideas as fast as Brandon and Jen are laying them down. The entire list of products—along with pictures, links and details about the exclusive discounts—are over on jenhatmaker.com just waiting for you. Happy Holidays from Jen, Brandon and the entire For the Love Podcast team!
Hello, neighbor! Today we start a short holiday series that reminds us there’s still so much good in the world, and so much to be thankful for. Speaking of, is there anyone more iconic, more revolutionary, more kind than Fred Rogers? Today we get a behind-the-scenes look at the new movie, A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood, starring Tom Hanks (!) as Mister Rogers, who was lightyears ahead of his time—and Jen is joined by none other than the writers and executive producers of the movie, Noah Harpster and Micah Fitzerman-Blue. Noah and Micah tell Jen why they decided to spend a decade of their lives to writing about Mister Rogers, how it’s made them better parents, and why they think the movie will help us soften our cynicism and remember the importance of being kind. We’re inspired by the words of Fred’s wife Joanne, who said that her husband was just another person too, one always looking for a way to help children understand their feelings and to make the world a gentler place to live.
As we wrap up our For the Love of Podcasts series (insert sad face), Jen’s sitting down with the one and only Monica Padman, co-creator and co-host with Dax Shepard of Armchair Expert—aka THE most-downloaded new podcast of 2018. Monica is a creative powerhouse, and today she and Jen go down memory lane to trace Monica’s path from theater major to LA-babysitter-trying-to-land-an-acting-gig to getting a text from Kristen Bell asking if she wanted to watch her five-month-old baby—which, by the way, was a job Monica almost didn’t take (!). Monica’s relationship with Kristen and Dax gradually developed into a creative partnership that’s spawned multiple projects, including the always-insightful Armchair Expert where some of the most creative and smart people spill their guts for two hours. Monica shares that finding a north star and following it, even if it doesn’t take you where you planned to go, is always worth the risk.
Our next episode of For the Love of Podcasts takes us to the gates of one of the most beloved audio shows of all time, NPR’s This American Life. And here to take us by the hand and lead us through the gates is producer Bim Adewunmi! Bim has had a rich media career, working for the BBC, The Guardian, and Buzzfeed News before starting her own podcast called Thirst Aid Kit then joining the ranks of This American Life. Radio was Bim’s first love (she’s had the same radio in her house for two decades!) so it’s only fitting that she works with the OG, circa 1995 podcast, telling stories from every corner in America from summer camp magic to a used car lot to African American blueberry farmers in Michigan. Bim’s perspective on uncovering hidden story gems, polishing and presenting them in an engaging way is equal parts fascinating and inspiring, and she reminds us that what we put into a story is just as important as what we leave out of it—and to appreciate narratives both big and small.
Today we’re cracking open the history textbooks and learning from OG podcaster—we’re talking, 2005 OG—Dan Carlin! Dan’s had a long career in broadcasting and his podcast, Hardcore History, combines gripping moments in history with Twilight Zone-style twists only a master storyteller could pull off. Dan and Jen examine that while we may be players on the world’s stage, we really have no precedent for today’s society. How do we navigate it when there’s nothing in our experiences we can compare it to? Through it all, Dan provides invaluable insight into seeing ourselves through the lens of history, learning from our ancestors, and fitting ourselves into the giant puzzle.
This 4th episode in our For the Love of Podcasts series speaks to the powerful way podcasts can affect change. In fact, we’ve seen podcasts start important conversations and transport us to moments in history we’d have never encountered otherwise. Jen talks to a few of her podcaster friends who are bringing the heat to their spaces: The Red Couch Podcast’s Jason Petty (aka rapper Propaganda) and his wife, Dr. Alma Zaragoza-Petty, and Catlick’s BT Harman (Brett Trapp!). First, Prop and Alma give us a deep dive into the world of the Red Couch, where they empower the experiences of people in non-majority culture who may not have conventional degrees, but can school us on politics and economics all the same (because everybody comes up against money and power, no matter where they live). Prop and Alma invite folks in majority culture to spend time in a space that’s not designed for them—because experience breeds empathy. In the second half of the show, we catch up with BT Harman, who was on the show last spring when we still called him Brett Trapp. Today we learn about the podcast BT’s been working on for four years: a true-crime story filled with complicated Southern history reaching back across centuries that he unearthed right in his own backyard: Atlanta’s Cabbagetown neighborhood. These storytellers encourage every generation to retell the hard stories, and to make room for voices from the margins to move to the center of the discussion.
We’re learning truckloads and having a ridiculous amount of fun in our For the Love of Podcasts series—lifehacks abound in these episodes, and especially in the show of our next guest: How To! with Charles Duhigg. Charles is a Pulitzer-winning investigative reporter and NYT bestselling author (who’s disarmingly charming), and he’s come up with a genius way to answer all of life’s “important” questions. Want to manage your anxiety? He’s your guy. Need tips on robbing a bank? Got you covered. Want to be ripped like Ryan Reynolds? Look no further! On his podcast, Charles talks to people with real questions we all have but never knew who to ask, and he hooks up the question-askers with experts who break down the big problems step by small step. And in fact, Charles is an expert in his own right: for his bestselling book The Power of Habit, Charles learned why people develop their habits—good or bad—and how we can fix them. And at one point, he walks Jen through her own mini-counseling sesh, peeling back the layers of why Jen (and we) procrastinate, and how the heck we can fix it. Charles’ insights into breaking down big problems into small, manageable steps are practical, applicable, and just plain fun podcast listening.
One of THE best things about podcasts is how we can instantly connect with wise teachers who change our lives for the better. And that’s 100% true for today’s guest, personal finance expert Rachel Cruze! For some of us, throwing around words like “budget” and “401k” is the verbal equivalent of sticking pencils in our eyeballs. But thankfully, Rachel doesn’t have that effect on us. In her podcast and web series, The Rachel Cruze Show, Rachel takes a warm, practical approach to money that makes it all so much more doable and manageable (after all, she’s had a lifetime of training, thanks to her dad Dave Ramsey!). Today Jen and Rachel talk about why sticking to a budget actually gives you freedom, the surprising secret to having more peace with your partner around finances, and how to teach your kids healthy money habits from an early age. As a self-admitted spender at heart, Rachel empowers us with tips and tools to help us remember that despite our feelings and past choices around money, it is always possible to make a change—because we are more than just our stuff.
Calling all podcast nerds: today we’re launching a brand-new series celebrating the shows and hosts we love—that’s right, it’s time to kick off For the Love of Podcasts! And today we’re thrilled to bring you two fresh voices who started a new in the summer of 2019 and are just killing it: Charla Lauriston and Lauren Domino from The *Secret Lives of Black Women*! Charla and Lauren have created a space where they’re inviting all listeners to join, but they’re carving a space where black women can especially relate and be celebrated. Charla and Lauren have been friends for nearly a decade after meeting in a not-so-great workspace. Being in the trenches brought them closer together, and now they bring hilarious and poignant observations to their listeners with episodes each Thursday. Lauren and Charla share the unique challenges of being a black woman, their favorite role models—including their dream guests for their podcast (some of which mirror our own—psst, Oprah and Michelle Obama, call us!). Through podcasting, Charla and Laura have been able to confidently (and vulnerably) show who they are, where they’ve come from and share that sense of self with others as we all blaze a trail into the future.
We’re wrapping up the Back to School series as we celebrate the heart of our nation’s classrooms: our teachers. There are so many inspiring teachers that we couldn’t narrow down our conversation to just one guest. We had to talk to two very special teachers: the National Teachers of the Year for 2017 and 2018, Sydney Chaffee and Mandy Manning. Mandy’s classroom is in Spokane, WA, where she teaches immigrants and refugees to the US, and Sydney teaches students in Codman, MA, who find themselves in a minority population. Both teachers guide us through typical days in their classroom, tell us about the teachers who inspired them along the way, and give us a peek at the big and small things their kids share (Fortnite!). We’re so inspired by the way Mandy and Sydney infuse courage and wisdom into hard truths their pupils are learning about the world, and they remind us that every kid has the potential to be amazing—we just have to believe in them.
We’re still in full swing with our back to school series, and we’ve saved the best of our academic years for last - Elementary School. If you’ve ever been tempted to lose faith in this upcoming crop of youngsters, we’re here to bear witness that these kids are #killingit. Leading the pack are prodigies like 5th Grader Ryan Hickman, who started his own recycling business when he was just three years old (yes, 3!). Ryan’s now 10, and his business is thriving, and his goal, by the time he is the ripe old age of 12, is to recycle 1 million bottles and cans. He talks about his business, and how he raises money for the Pacific Marine Mammal Center in Orange County (which he’s shared about in numerous TV news stories and on The Ellen Show). Ryan also gives us a peek into what elementary school kids are into right now (besides being business magnates), including challenging Jen to a rousing game of his favorite card game, “War.”
We’re winding back the clock and revisiting one of the most pivotal times in our lives: middle school. And guiding us through the junior high hallways of 2019 are Jen’s daughter Remy and her very best friend Ella! These girls have weathered middle school and all its new responsibilities, social commitments, and shifting dynamics with so much grace and heart. And they give us the inside scoop on what’s in (TikTok and Snapchat) and what’s out (gasp Instagram!), their best advice to their younger selves (if someone gets mad at you for trying to make new friends, that’s their problem) and what they wish their parents knew (everything is, um, a lot—so maybe give us some space?). Remy and Ella’s friendship is giving us life goals, and the girls remind us that good relationships help make some of the weirdest times not only navigable, but tons of fun.
Hit up your locker and meet us in homeroom because today we’re going back to high school with Jen’s very own two high schoolers, Caleb and Ben Hatmaker. High school is a formative experience for all, and Ben and Caleb’s journey will likely resonate with each of us: making great friends, getting buried under homework, trying to make our parents proud. But it’s eye-opening to learn about what Gen Z is dealing with that we didn’t have to: paralyzing academic pressure, a laser-focused emphasis on getting a four-year degree, having an instant connection to information and peers 24/7—it’s a lot. Ben and Caleb reveal what they like about being in Gen Z, and they give us the 411 (ahem perhaps under duress) about all the stuff the cool kids are saying (Cap? Dap?) that we immediately plan to use everywhere and make uncool—and they drop a bomb by telling us Agatha Christie has made a comeback. And Jen lays down some old-school wisdom by teaching the boys what a “busy signal” is.
Pull out your notebooks and sharpen your pencils, because today we’re starting a brand-new series called For the Love of Back to School! Ahh, school. Some things never change (football games! clubs! writing your entire term paper the night before it’s due!), but today’s kids are dealing with challenges that weren’t around when some of us were younger. We wanted to get the inside scoop on the ways young folks think about school and the world they’re learning to live in, and we’re starting with two people Jen knows pretty well: her two college kids, Gavin and Sydney! Gavin’s a senior at Texas Tech, and Sydney’s a sophomore at UT Austin, and they graciously let their mom to grill them on all kinds of topics: What’s different about college from what they expected? Why are they excited to be part of Gen Z? What do they wish their parents knew? (and what do their parents, ahem, not know—besides Sydney and her friends have a major crush on Michelle Obama?) One thing the Hatmakers take away from their chat: as you learn how to be an adult or how to be the parent of an adult, keeping the lines of communication open lifts up everyone.
Remember when newspapers and 3 TV channels were the only ways you consumed the news? That world will never be a reality for our kids—and it’s up to us to teach them to think critically about where they’re getting information and who may be trying to feed it to them. And get excited, parents, because we have a killer partner in this effort: it’s called MediaWise, and it’s a media literacy project that aims to teach 1 million teens how to sort fact from fiction online by 2020. Jen talks to journalist and MediaWise member Heaven Taylor-Wynn, who schools us on ways we can teach our kids (and ourselves) how to sniff out fake news and gives us the skinny on some of the new scams we need to watch out for (anyone who’s seen the “deep fake” video of Ron Swanson on the opening credits of Full House knows what we’re talking about). We learn how keyword searches take the sensation out of crazy headlines and how “lateral reading” helps us give a more full context to a story. Heaven’s right when she says, “The information we consume directly affects the decisions we make.” And if we can equip our kids to navigate digital waters successfully, we’re setting them up to have healthy media diets and make well-informed choices for life.
When we sat down to plan For the Love of Finding the Truth, one of the first names that came to mind was Elizabeth Dias of The New York Times. And for good reason—Elizabeth is one of our best thinkers right now, giving us context for what’s going on at the intersection of politics and religion in America, all the while searching for underrepresented voices that need to be amplified. A decade ago, Elizabeth started her career at Time, sitting down with heavy-hitters like Pope Francis and the Dalai Lama while also covering social and ideological shifting sands, like the way the Latino community is changing the face of evangelical churches and our culture’s collective response to Trayvon Martin’s death. Elizabeth and Jen talk about the way American Christians are trying to reconcile their decisions at the ballot box with their faith, and why it’s so important to ask hard questions, even if you don’t like the answers you get in return. Elizabeth reminds us even when we get uncomfortable and dig for answers beneath the surface, the truth is always worth it.
“It’s funny ‘cause it’s true!” said Tina Fey on 30 Rock. As in all things, Tina is 100% correct. In our 2nd episode of For the Love of Finding the Truth, Elle.com humor writer R. Eric Thomas and Jen explore humor as a truth-telling device and how we can use comedy to face some of the greatest ideological battles of our time. Eric has a daily column called “Eric Reads the News” where he breaks down the biggest headlines as only a satirist, brunch enthusiast, and Beyoncé Fan Club President can do (and be careful where you read anything Eric writes—he’ll likely inspire uncontrollable snorts, much like you’ll hear from Jen during the episode). Eric’s first stab at observational humor took place at church while he and his brother made hilarious notes about the people there (to which Eric was sure they’d go to hell for). This humor later turned into imaginative scenarios Eric would post on Facebook for his friends (i.e. when he saw a group photo of President Obama, Canadian prime minister Justin Trudeau and former Mexican president Enrique Peña Nieto, Eric declared them “an all-male cast of Sex and the City”), which ultimately got the attention of Elle.com and launched his daily column. Eric’s journey is defined by confronting his own painful and hilarious truths as he’s overcome stereotypes, reckoned his Christianity with being gay, and discovered some surprisingly deep things about himself when he joined a gay softball league—all of which he talks about in his upcoming book Here For It. As Eric says: “The oppressors do not get to define the way I walk through the world and hold my head up. I get to define that.” As Eric would also say—honey, yes.
In the immortal words of Jack Nicholson, can you handle the truth? We think you can, and we’re excited to start a new series that dives into the murky world of truth-telling in our culture today: For the Love of Finding the Truth! Skewing the truth is nothing new—bias exists everywhere—but in the pre-social media era, it was a smidge easier to parse through what was real and what wasn’t. With the massive growth of online communities, there are more ways to get information than ever before—and more organizations looking to feed the information they want us to have (#fakenews). Kicking off the series are two women dedicated to sifting through the mountains of information hurled at us each day and understanding it from differing perspectives. Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers (who go by “Sarah from the left” and “Beth from the right”) stand a few feet from each other on the political spectrum, but are still friends—good friends. And they’re leading the way on how to have grace-filled political conversations, which they do each week on their highly acclaimed podcast Pantsuit Politics. Lucky for us, they wrote a whole book called I Think You’re Wrong (But I’m Listening) to remind us that relationship is always more important than being right. Plus, Sarah and Beth answer some burning political questions like: how does the Electoral College work and why is everyone in a twist about it? Gerrymandering—why should I care? And what’s gonna happen in 2020?? The Pantsuit ladies break it all down and give us thoughtful explanations and opinions, showing us how truth can be revealed through knowledge wherever you stand.
Erin Loos Cutraro has a vision some may describe as bold, but actually, it should be our reality: half of the people running for office should be women (and spoiler alert: women who run win at the same rates as men!). But often, starting when we’re little girls, women don’t see themselves as qualified leaders, or feel they don’t have enough experience, connections, or time to jump into the political arena. Erin is passionate about removing those perceived obstacles and clearing the path for more women to run for office—starting at the all-important local level (did you know 99% of elected offices are at the local level?). Erin launched She Should Run, a nonpartisan organization that encourages and equips women from all walks of life to run for office. Erin and Jen talk about why it’s so important to have policymakers with diverse experiences and backgrounds, and how we can start small by getting to know our local officials. Erin believes women participating in government is the key to solving systemic issues in our neighborhoods and our nation, which lifts up everyone. If you’ve ever thought you could bring a fresh perspective to the political landscape where you live and beyond, Erin’s here to tell you: you should—and can—run!
If you’ve seen her on the Netflix series Chef’s Table, you know Chef Dominique Crenn is filled with equal parts talent, love, and creative whimsy. Dominique is the chef-proprietor of Atelier Crenn, the San Francisco restaurant she opened nearly a decade ago. And last year Dominique became the first female chef in America to earn three Michelin stars, the highest honor in the food world, all with an eye toward connecting with her guests and ensuring all feel welcome in her space. Raised in the Brittany region of France, Dominique moved to California in her twenties, looking for a sense of purpose, and talked her way into the glitzy kitchen run by acclaimed chef Jeremiah Tower—except Dominique had never cooked in a professional kitchen before. Today she and Jen talk about the ways leaders can help their teams thrive, how women can become advocates for each other, and why it’s so important to care for the earth as much as it cares for us.
Our series on Powerhouse Women continues with two strong women who are helping women in Haiti get through the most powerful and vulnerable moments they will ever experience: giving birth. Midwives Tara Livesay and KJ Johnson are best friends who work with Heartline Ministries and, like Melinda Gates, they champion maternal care as a human right. As Enneagram 2s, Tara and KJ became fast friends, and they tell Jen why they decided to become midwives, about the birth story that brought them together (an unexpected twin!), what it’s like to offer maternal care in Haiti (it involves Tara driving a van on the rules-optional streets of Port-au-Prince—not for the faint of heart!). Tara and KJ are facing broken systems that are daunting for people in their line of work, and instead of walking away defeated, they are offering love to one person at a time—the kind of love we’d all like to receive in our own moment of need. And sometimes, that’s all we can do.
Nona Jones (Yes Nona, not Norah!) faced a lot of obstacles on her path to becoming a powerhouse woman and now heads up global faith-based partnerships at Facebook. Growing up with a single mom amid trauma and abuse, Nona struggled to see her value or her place in the world. Nona found a community of love and support in her local church, and being accepted and welcomed there began a path toward healing that would change her whole trajectory. She tells Jen how she joined the executive team of a Fortune 500 Company at age 23, and how she learned the difference between healthy and unhealthy ambition. And in her role as social media maven at Facebook, Nona has razor-sharp insight into how we can help our kids cultivate authentic communities online and off. Nona’s message is one that we can all take to heart--when we believe in who we truly are, we are able to pursue our highest values and goals with excellence, which adds enormous value to the world.
By anyone's definition, Sarah Robb O'Hagan is a winning force. She's a brilliant executive, passionate athlete, and bold entrepreneur who’s worked with some of the biggest corporations around: Apple, Virgin Atlantic, Nike, to name a few. And when Sarah was the CEO of Gatorade, she led a huge turnaround that reinvigorated the struggling company. Sarah talks candidly about her winding road to the top, a journey that included more than one time she was let go from a job. She isn’t afraid to admit, “I deserved to get fired,” and reminds us that we need to allow ourselves plenty of room to try and risk and make mistakes, because our failures have just as much to teach us as our successes. Sarah reiterates a common theme among powerhouse women—we need to pull our sisters and other underrepresented communities to the top with us, because our boardrooms won’t truly represent what our country looks like until we close the gap ourselves.
We all know knowledge is power. But the power doesn’t just come from what you know—it comes from acting on that knowledge. And for theSkimm’s Carly Zakin and Danielle Weisberg, their mission is to give that power to millennial women and beyond, to arm them with the tools and confidence to take charge of their lives and conquer the world, and they’re doing it all through the media company they founded called theSkimm. When they left their jobs at NBC News in 2012, Carly and Danielle started a daily online newsletter from their couch. Since then, their office has grown from 2 employees to more than 100, and their handful of subscribers has ballooned to a whopping 7 million (!). Why? Because they tell hard news in a way that people can not only understand but actually want to read, and they’re making a difference. In fact, theSkimm helped register more than 200,000 new voters in the 2018 midterms, and they’ve already set their sights on the 2020 elections. Jen sat down with Carly and Danielle to talk about their rise as female CEOs running a female-led company, and the best career advice they’ve received from powerful women in their lives. And speaking of advice, theSkimm team assembled of their best nuggets of wisdom, from how to invest to how to pack jewelry for a trip, in their just-released New York Times bestselling book, How to Skimm Your Life.
We’re starting strong in our new series For the Love of Powerhouse Women, because we’re joined by one of our personal heroes: Melinda Gates. Kind and wise, Melinda leads the world largest philanthropy, the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, to improve the lives of millions of women and children around the world, and she does it all with a listening ear and an equally fierce and gentle spirit. We’re thrilled to talk with her today about her dynamite new book The Moment of Lift. Melinda lets us in our her early days in Dallas, growing up in a devoted Catholic family and learning about the lives of the marginalized through volunteer work at the country courthouse. After receiving degrees in computer science and business at Duke, Melinda made her way to Microsoft, where she led product teams on little things you might’ve heard of like Microsoft Word and Expedia, before turning down Bill Gates for a date, then eventually becoming his bride. When her children were young, Melinda explored the lives of little ones like her own around the globe and wondered why children in other countries were dying of preventable diseases like malaria. Her trip down the rabbit hole led to conclude that their mothers needed to be lifted up. And in fact, when you lift up a woman, she lifts up everyone else.
In this bonus episode as we begin a new series, which features Powerhouse Women, we’re thrilled to visit with someone close to one of the most powerful women on the planet! Stedman Graham is a brilliant business consultant whose clients range from Microsoft to the US Department of Labor. And after talking with him about his latest book, Identity Leadership, we can see why. Stedman reminds us if you want to lead someone else, you need to lead yourself first—and leading yourself means knowing who you are and where you want to go. He and Jen talk about why love is the secret ingredient to transforming our energy, why Oprah is one of the world’s most effective leaders, and how we can help our kids become creative, curious thinkers who can lead and dare greatly into the next generation. Whether you’re leading the way for your family or an entire company, Stedman’s advice rings true: find what you love and go do it, because love will light you up and change the world.
Break out the champagne and the streamers because today we’re celebrating our 100th episode! To mark this illustrious milestone, Jen is joined by the women behind the podcast: God-sent angel/assistant Amanda Duckett (who had to be heavily bribed to appear on the show), and producer extraordinaire/lover of stats Laura Neutzling. Together the ladies of For the Love dish on the behind-the-scenes shenanigans that have never left their laptops. Learn the secret identity of the first voiceover lady, which guest surprised Jen in the very best way, and what’s saving all our lives. The ladies muse on their personal favorite episodes and reveal which episodes have been your favorites, too. We’re also honored to celebrate you, our listeners, who inspire us to bring the best guests and topics to the table—here’s to the next 100 episodes!
In our fifth and final installment of For the Love of Health & Wellness, we’re exploring the wide world of career health, a huge part of many of our lives that affects us mind, body, and soul. How we spend our days is how we spend our lives, and if you work full-time, you know how much of your day seems to be dedicated to making a living. But what happens when you’re ready for the next step . . . and you don’t know what it is? Whether you’re a young person trying to break into a career or you’re wanting to start fresh later in life, what if it feels like the opportunities you expected aren’t presenting themselves? Rich Karlgaard, the publisher of Forbes Magazine, helps us embrace the notion that it’s never too late for us. While Rich landed a job that he loves, he didn’t always have a clear idea of his path. Years after he graduated from college, he wandered from job to entry-level job, seeking a spark from something (like so many of us). Rich has written a fascinating book called Late Bloomers, and he and Jen muse on why our world is so obsessed with early achievement, how that’s hurting adults and kids alike, and the benefits of “peaking” at a higher age. It’s never too late to start the business, write the book, go after the dream. In fact, the wisdom we might gain through hard-won experience could be just the thing that helps us succeed.
Since this episode contains mature themes, we recommend listening where kids can’t hear. We forge ahead in For the Love of Health & Wellness with an important facet of our health we don’t address as openly as we may care to admit: sexual health. Jen sits down with sexologist Dr. Celeste Holbrook, who has dedicated her life to helping women achieve soul-centered sex, and they broach topics many of us might be too timid to bring up. Ever wonder how much sex is normal? It’s in here. Want to know what the #1 arousal killer is? Gotcha covered. And (gulp) we even discuss how to talk to our kids about sex (!). Not only does Celeste discuss these important topics, she also relates her own journey with sex—from the anticipation of having a mind-blowing sexual encounter for the first time, to finding that for her, the whole event was . . . less than ideal. For years, sex remained a painful, shame-inducing experience for Celeste that finally drove her to get help, but even then her doctor couldn’t give her the answers she needed to address the physical and emotional issues she had around sex. Celeste decided to take her sexual health into her own hands and got her PhD in sexology. Now Celeste sees one of the biggest ways she can help her clients have better sex is by helping them find their worth. She wants to empower women to know themselves and feel confident in their bodies, so that they are able to ask for what they want inside and outside the bedroom.
Let’s get in the driver’s seat of how we’re living, who we’re investing in, and how we’re spending our time as we head into the third episode of For the Love of Health & Wellness. Today we’re looking at the direct connection between living a life of kindness and improving our mental and physical health. Did you know studies show that helping others can reduce early mortality rates by 22%, diminish depression, and increase our sense of life satisfaction and well-being? Author, TV Host, and curator of the 100 Things List Terry Sebastian found this out firsthand. After tragically losing a childhood friend, 24-year-old Sebastian made a list of 100 Things he wanted to pursue, hoping it would bring him joy and a life of no regrets, and set out to bring his list to life. While the adventure involved amazing things like jumping out of a plane (naked!) and delivering a baby, he realized his true mission when he met a quadriplegic man named Mark, who dreamed of completing a half marathon. Sebastian helped Mark reach his dream by pushing Mark the entire 13.1 miles. Sebastian’s new mission to spread kindness led him to create an organization called Kindsum, which connects “helpers” to those who are vulnerable and brave enough to ask for help. Sebastian shows us what’s possible by living intentionally and how showing kindness can change ourselves and the world for good.
With the second episode of our For the Love of Health & Wellness series, we’re taking a deep dive into physical health—but this is not a “go get your annual physical” guilt trip. We’re talking with a doctor who’s taking a refreshing “body and mind” approach to looking at health, a physician who started a literary journal and decided to learn how to play the cello because she wanted a little more beauty and learning in her life. Dr. Danielle Ofri is a general physician at Bellevue Hospital in New York City, the oldest public hospital in America, and today she brings us into life inside the white coat as she and Jen discuss some of the HUGE changes the medical world has seen over the last few decades, what we really need to do to stay healthy (hint: make friends, get a hobby, and drink lots of water), and some of the exciting medical breakthroughs we might see in our lifetime. Equal parts art and science, Dr. Ofri emphasizes that better and more frequent communication and connection is at the heart of what will keep us healthy in the long run, which she talks about in her latest book What Patients Say, What Doctors Hear.
We’re thrilled to begin a new series we hope will spur conversations about our body image, health, nutrition and well-being. During For the Love of Health & Wellness, we’re stepping out of the body-shaming space and giving the mic to experts and clinicians who have wise ways to help us take stock of how we’re doing, and adjust those dials to feel a bit better. In this episode, we’re talking food and body with our first guest, nutritionist Haley Goodrich, who we adore for many reasons—especially the way she helps others find joy and peace with their bodies. If you’re tired of feeding into toxic diet culture, you’ll be refreshed by Haley’s “Health at Every Size” philosophy that says you are worthy of caring for your body in ways that make you feel stronger and healthier, no matter the number you see on the scale. Jen and Haley have an eye-opening discussion about the way thin privilege shows up in our everyday lives and how we can become more inclusive of others’ different shapes. Haley encourages us to develop a healthy relationship with food that doesn’t involve strict calorie counting or calling foods “good” or “bad,” but instead helps us remember food is neutral—it’s just something we nourish ourselves with, body and soul.
We lost a beloved friend, teacher, and true faith groundbreaker this week. Her teachings, writings, and insight into the Christian faith have quietly revolutionized the lives for many whose religious upbringing imposed limits and yielded scars. Because of Rachel, more women than ever have begun pursuing their place in the pulpit. Because of Rachel, the way has been paved for all of us who struggle with questions, doubts and failings in the faith to speak openly about it. Her passing seems sudden, and too soon. But right now, we are clinging to her warmth and wisdom in hopes we can continue to be the light she always was for us. In that spirit, we’re re-airing her conversation from last year about her fierce love of the church, even in the midst of her doubt. In Rachel’s own words from that interview, “Ours is a God of death and resurrection—and that God can take anything and bring it to life.” In moments like this, we realize Rachel’s work planted seeds of hope that will bloom across generations.
We always like to mix it up a little bit here in For the Love Podcast world, and we hope you’ll be the happy beneficiaries of this bonus episode! We got the chance to catch up with one of our faves--the beautiful and talented Chrissy Metz--who plays the role of Kate Pearson on the beloved, boo-hoo-every-week hit television show, This Is Us. Chrissy shares a little about how she got her start, and in the process cheers on the late bloomers among us and those who may be tired of living in the shadows. She goes on to talk about the powerful movie she recently starred in called Breakthrough. In this true life story, she plays the role of a mother, who after everyone told her her son wouldn’t survive a terrible accident, decided to believe that he could. Chrissy experienced a similar situation after her own mother suffered a stroke, and relates how the role echoed her real life crisis. Chrissy is a champion for being vulnerable--as an actor, and as a woman--and is a model for what it means to finally believe in yourself and take a leap of faith.
Coming in to wrap up our For the Love of Faith Groundbreakers series is yet another guest who challenges us to look at our faith differently, a prolific writer, rapper, activist and voice of conscience (and one that’s bound to get us cool points with our kids): GRAMMY Award-winning hip-hop artist Lecrae. Over the years, Lecrae has discovered the most effective leaders for change do so with vulnerability. He candidly tells us about the blowback he received after raising his voice about systemic racism, how it subsequently sent him into a depression, and how therapy and a fresh outlook on faith helped him pull forward. Through it all, Lecrae lays down truth and eye-opening wisdom as he shepherds us through conversations in artistry, faith, and fatherhood, reminding us why it’s so important not only to think about injustice, but to do something about it.
The Bible means many things to many people, and its passages have been interpreted seven ways to Sunday; in turn those interpretations have spawned countless church denominations that all vary in their beliefs. For some, the Bible is the ultimate answer book for anything that life may present. But for others, there are questions that the Bible doesn’t seem to address, or if it does, it’s difficult to always understand the context of those thoughts and how they apply to our present day world. Pete Enns is a Bible scholar, a popular blogger and podcast host of The Bible for Normal People, and he’s here to tell us that the Bible is a “guide to a journey of wisdom in this life, as opposed to being an answer book for every question we might happen to have to ask of it.” His excellent new book called “How the Bible Actually Works” will give us comfort in that there is no “wrong way” to read the Bible and that the questions that stem from that reading aren’t obstacles, but catalysts to lead us into a deeper understanding of God. While the Bible is often “weaponized” and its text used to foster guilt and shame, Pete eschews the notion that we approach the Bible as a “rule book,” and wants us to recognize it as a beautiful, liberating book of wisdom that has guided the church forward generation after generation.
Sarah Bessey is the friend we all need, the one who will welcome you with open arms, tuck you under a blanket she knitted herself, and hand you a cup of tea while you talk about the mysteries of life. As a matter of fact, she’s exactly that kind of friend to Jen—and through this episode, you’ll feel the love too. As a beautiful and insightful writer, her books take us through the deconstruction of her faith, with wonderings and wanderings so many of us have had, or may be experiencing now, back to a relationship with God that allows for questions and a desire for change in our religious systems. Sarah also opens up about a shift in her reality that she’s been quietly living through for the last couple of years—the aftermath of a serious car accident, which upended the life she was building and left her in chronic pain. Having to hit pause on the speaking career she loved and the book she thought she would write, Sarah embarked on an all new journey to rediscover who God was in this season of life, and contemplates what’s different on the other side of being broken. Her new book, Miracles and Other Reasonable
Father Richard Rohr is one of our best teachers, hands down. Whether it’s through his work at the Center for Action and Contemplation (which he founded) in Albuquerque, New Mexico, or the many enlightening books he’s written, Fr. Richard is dedicated to helping people realize their best selves, both inwardly and outwardly. A champion for social justice who’s spent decades fighting for equality, he shows us the way to radical compassion by gently leading us to see the world with new eyes through the concept of “voluntary displacement,” i.e. when we willfully move out of our comfort zones and “live” ourselves into new ways of thinking. For such a wise and contemplative guy, his cool factor is off the charts. He calls Bono a good friend, and he was considered the foremost expert on the Enneagram WAY before it was the hot topic of the day. Jen and Fr. Richard discuss the dangers of “individualistic Christianity,” in the context of his new book “The Universal Christ,” and how so many of us have a stingy view of God who doles out His love out to just a certain few. He sums up our spiritual challenges in one masterful concept that, if we truly embraced, it would change the direction of our lives: “nothing can separate us from God, except the thought that we’re separate from God.”
“Does Jesus really love me?” Journalist Jeff Chu has asked himself this question countless times since he was a kid. Jeff grew up immersed in a family of theologians, where knowing and sticking to the Bible’s rules were prized currency. As Jeff approached high school, he realized he was gay. Over time, while he prayed for God to change who he was, Jeff threw himself into his work to escape his inner turmoil and realized he was a gifted storyteller who loved talking with people from all walks of life. A few years ago, Jeff found himself on the road, searching for the answer to his long-held question across America as he interviewed everyone from nice church ladies to members of the Westboro Baptist Church. And as he talked to more and more people about their spiritual beliefs, he concluded that yes: even though Jeff doesn’t feel like it some days, Jesus really does love us all. And if we actually believed He did, we would speak differently, tweet differently, love differently—in a nutshell, believing we’re loved would transform our lives.
When Kaitlin Curtice speaks, people listen. Raised a Southern Baptist, as she grew older Kaitlin began to explore her family’s rich history in the Potawatomi Citizen Band. Kaitlin tells us what life is like as an indigenous woman in the United States today, how she’s teaching her kids about their heritage and how we can rally around teachers of color during their hardest moments. Kaitlin reminds us we have a responsibility to incorporate a wide range of voices into our world and remember the power of empathizing with an experience different from our own. One of the most poignant lessons she gives us: God is inviting us into the sacred, and it’s not in a far-off sunbeam or reserved for the church pew—the sacred is all around us, from the daffodils on the street corner to the popsicle-stained smile of our kid, even as we are consoled in our pain and grief. God’s glory is in everyone and everything. We only need eyes to see it.
When Mike McHargue, AKA Science Mike of The Liturgists Podcast, stopped by to visit with Jen, we knew we were in for some mind-bending stuff. After all, you don’t go from a Southern Baptist deacon to an atheist back to a follower of Jesus without gaining some wisdom along the way. But in our next installment of For the Love of Faith Groundbreakers, Science Mike helps us understand the kind of God we believe in, whether he is angry or loving, has a profound effect not only on the way we view the world, but the actual way our brain functions. cue mind-blowing explosion Along with his brilliant insights, Mike shares his faith journey and how he navigated the most difficult parts of his changing views—including why he stayed at church, despite his nonbelief—and how a trip to NASA and a night on the Pacific Ocean helped him re-meet God in a whole new way. Like Mike, so many of us have asked tough questions, and maybe have meandered through spaces of doubt and uncertainty. Mike reminds us we can be kind, conscientious people no matter where we find ourselves on our faith journeys, and we can have wandering seasons and still be okay.
We’re thrilled to enter a new series: For the Love of Faith Groundbreakers. In the vein of last year’s “exploring our faith” series, we’re talking with women and men who are taking a fresh, honest look at their faith experiences and blazing new trails when they find the status quo isn’t feeling quite right. Leading us off in this series is Osheta Moore, a writer, speaker, podcaster, and a faith groundbreaker in her own right. Osheta is also a powerful leader on racial reconciliation and equality, and through it all, she teaches that God wants each of us to be whole, vibrant, and flourishing. In her book and podcast called Shalom Sistas, Osheta breaks down 12 ways we can turn “shalom” into an action. She shows us how to become peacemakers in our everyday lives—not just with each other, but with ourselves and with God. Osheta shows us that peace is more than just a feeling. It’s the belief that God created us perfectly, just as we are, and the bodies that we live and practice shalom in, from the color of our skin to the shape of our hips, are wholly good.
You know that warm, happy glow you get after chatting with your friend all night, favorite beverage in hand and deep conversation shared between you? This conversation is one of those happy moments. Jen had the chance to catch up with Lady Antebellum’s Hillary Scott backstage at the San Antonio Stock Show and Rodeo (the most Texas thing ever), and we get to peek behind the curtain and hear what it was like for Hillary to grow up in Nashville with parents who were country music staples (in Reba’s band, no less!) and how chatting up a guy she recognized from Myspace (yes, it’s still out there) led to a spot in one of the hottest country groups of the century. We also love Hillary’s perspective on the beauty of strong friendships, and how they’ve been a foundation for her during a whirlwind season as a new mom. Hillary saw that trying to “do it all” wasn’t helping her or anyone, and the moment she decided give herself a break and accept grace from herself and from God, she was able to cherish herself and her family the way she always wanted.
Say the words “Amy Grant,” and you launch a generation of music lovers into nostalgia. We’ve grown up alongside Amy, haven’t we? Who didn’t sing “Love Will Find a Way” or “Baby, Baby” into their hairbrush? Who didn’t feel a rush of pride when we saw our favorite Christian songstress—someone even our parents approved of—show up on VH1 and Top 40 radio stations? Amy navigated the whirlwind of success that enveloped her and the inevitable criticism it brought from those who thought she had left her roots behind to become the strong, gracious and gifted artist she is today. Those darker moments, which she describes as “a 10-year tunnel,” started with her very public divorce that found her emerging on the other side with a new sense of connection to God and to those who walked alongside her. With her career and her music still going strong, Amy’s devotion to family and community is firmly at the center, and she looks back at the tough times as bringing about a “very unique toolkit” that will be essential to help guide her children on their next great adventures.
We have country music royalty in our midst today, we’re fangirling and we don’t even care—because Martina McBride is our queen! Since she came on the scene in the early 90s, Martina has been a vocal powerhouse ranked among the all-time greatest female performers in country music with hits like “This One’s for the Girls,” “In My Daughter’s Eyes,” “Concrete Angel,” and so many more. Today Martina tells us how she went from singing in her dad’s band in Kansas and selling T-shirts at Garth Brooks concerts to nailing a recording contract and rising to the top of the charts. She shares the stories behind those amazing and empowering songs she chose to record, and reflects on the current music scene and why it’s important for women to be represented more equally. We find out what she is doing musically these days, and how she gives back with her charitable organization Team Music Is Love. We also get to hear about Martina’s new second career: Food Network chef at Martina’s Table and cookbook author of Martina’s Kitchen Mix!
When Jennifer Knapp broke into Christian music in the 90s, we’d never heard anyone quite like her before. A soulful voice with lyrics to match, Jennifer took the CCM scene by storm—until she stepped out of the spotlight just a few years into her career, after an unrelenting scheduled left her body exhausted and her creative well drained. After a seven-year hiatus, Jennifer came back in full force with a powerful, courageous confession: she is gay and had been in a relationship with a woman since 2002. With unapologetic honesty, Jennifer has kept exploring her faith publicly in a memoir called Facing the Music, and even started an organization called Inside Out Faith, which advocates for the affirmation of our LGBTQ brothers and sisters in our faith communities. Today she and Jen talk about how she found faith in her college years and started weaving it into her music, and after she returned from her extended break—where she engaged in a fight for her own belovedness and belonging—she is now helping others find theirs.
You asked, we listened: this is the kick-off episode of our For the Love of Music series! We’ll hear from artists of all stripes and genres, and find out what inspires them to create songs that touch our hearts like nothing else can. No doubt today’s guest has given you goosebumps a time or two. Whether it was her stunning rendition of “The Star Spangled Banner” that launched her to fame in the mid-80s, or when she belted out gospel classics like “We Shall Behold Him,” Sandi Patty is a vocal force of nature—but, ironically, she never felt she had a true voice in her own life. Today Sandi tells us some deeply personal, tragic and triumphant stories she wrote in her book “The Voice: Listening for God’s Voice and Finding Your Own.” Sandi shows us despite the darkness we face and despite others who may try to silence us for their own gain, our voices are valuable and worthy to be shared—and when we do, we’ll likely find a community of others waiting for a relatable voice to help them through their own darkness.
One of the bravest, most impactful good changes we can make is to care for our emotional wellness. Each day we carry so many thoughts, memories and dreams that shape the stories we tell about ourselves. When we’re ready to live a new story, or maybe learn a little more about how to better care for ourselves, therapy can be a long-lasting tool to help us take off our mask, heal our shame, and forge a path toward vulnerability and authentic, joyful living. Miles Adcox is the CEO of Onsite, an emotional wellness lifestyle brand that delivers life-changing personal growth retreats to help people discover a better future. Miles is known far and wide for his expertise and has been part of Dr. Brené Brown’s Rising Strong Day and TEDx. Today Miles tells us about his own emotional wellness journey and why therapy isn’t for broken people. He gives us a slew of resources about how to find the best therapist for us, and what we can expect to learn about ourselves as we take time to dig deeper. And probably the most encouraging of all, Miles reminds us we don’t just “need” therapy—we deserve it.
When you have no idea what to do next, it feels like you’re drowning in a lake of neverending to-do lists, homework, laundry, and dreams on hold. In a word, it’s overwhelming. How do we begin to take charge and find a way out of the chaos? In the words of our next guest: just do the next right thing (FYI: “NEXT” is the key word here!). Writer and podcaster Emily P. Freeman gives us tools to find out what The Next Right Thing is for each us, which is also the title of her insightful podcast and her upcoming book that hits shelves April 2. Emily shows us why naming our fears gives us power over them, how to make decisions in a better way, and how practicing “soul minimalism” will help us all breathe more easily in two seconds flat. And perhaps best of all, Emily helps us recognize that like our favorite jeans, the decisions that were once right for us may not fit anymore—and that’s 100% okay.
With the new year comes new pressure to CHANGE. OUR. LIVES. This is the year we’re finally going to lose the weight, finish the project, clean out ALL the closets. Time after time, so many of us find life gets in the way. And when we can’t attain the lofty goals we set for ourselves, we feel like failures. Jon Acuff joins the show to give us permission to finish, even if we only get part of the way there. Jon is the New York Times bestselling author of 6 books, including Finish: Give Yourself the Gift of Done (which just conveniently came out in paperback!). Today he reveals how we can be honest about our goals and kinder to ourselves, even when our efforts come up short of our expectations—or where we perceive others are. Jon and Jen talk about why the pursuit of perfection can be the biggest hurdle to “getting it done,” and how cutting goals in half raises our chance for success through the roof. Jon reveals we might need more than a year to get some things done (What? Resolution sacrilege!) and shows we’re really NOT wired to do it all, despite what others’ social media pages may depict. And with that realization alone, life becomes much more enjoyable.
What would our lives be like if we spent less time thinking and talking about the way we look? What If we stopped comparing our bodies and bemoaning our “flaws”? Researchers report 85–95% of women are extremely dissatisfied with their bodies. How can we change this for ourselves? How can we pass down positive messages about female bodies to the next generation of women? Hillary McBride is a therapist and researcher who writes about these questions in her book Mothers, Daughters, and Body Image: Learning to Love Ourselves as We Are. According to Hillary, we inherit harmful stories about our bodies, and may even pass them onto our daughters without even knowing it. Hillary points out other ways we come by this language: through systemic misinformation and misogyny that envelop us daily, pushing us toward an unattainable standard of beauty. This conversation has everything to do with dispelling our shame and celebrating our womanhood. It reminds us of the power of legacy and the freedom we gain by owning our stories and our worth. And at the end of those stories, we each get to define what’s beautiful, accepted, and good.
Lawyer-turned-writer Gretchen Rubin fancied herself a happy person. She had a job she liked, a husband and two daughters she loved, a life she enjoyed. But one day she found herself wondering, “Could I be happier?” So she set out to change her life—not in a blow-it-all-up-and-move-across-the-world kind of way, but with small steps over one year. Gretchen documented her experiment to live happier in the blockbuster New York Times bestseller The Happiness Project, and has inspired millions to improve their lives and find contentment. As part of our For the Love of Good Change series, Jen and Gretchen talk about why it’s okay to pursue happiness in a world filled with hard things, and the little ways we can reach for a richer, more satisfying life. Gretchen shows how easy it is to work “happiness habits” into our lives (Jen adopted one immediately after this interview!) and how these small steps can yield big, long-term results. We also get a sneak peek at Gretchen’s new book coming out this spring: Outer Order, Inner Calm.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays from the For the Love team! This week, we’re previewing our brand-new series for the new year, For the Love of Good Change, and bringing back one of our most downloaded episodes (not to mention one of our favorite guests): Emily Ley, author and creator of The Simplified Planner! A busy mom and head of a flourishing company, Emily found that striving for “all the things” left her with no time or energy to enjoy the good stuff. A champion for helping others organize, declutter, and simplify, Emily’s own life was lacking in simple joys because she was striving for an impossible standard of perfection. She shares how she learned to give herself grace, say the dreaded “no“ word, and take some steps back in order to move ahead. She also gives us some GREAT bringing-order-to-chaos hacks, like answering the question Jen posed herself: "Why do I have 17 spatulas??” Emily's newest book is A Simplified Life: Tactical Tools for Intentional Living, and her next one comes out this spring—A Standard of Grace: Guided Journal.
Susan Ramirez and Jon Huckins are giving their all in some of the hardest work: lending voices and love to two communities who are suffering deeply. In our last episode of For the Love of Giving, we’re going to talk with Susan and Jon about the problems their communities face, and how we can give our time and privilege to help solve these complex problems. First up, Susan Ramirez is the CEO of National Angels, an org that walks alongside children and their caretakers in the foster care system. Today, we learn how one National Angels program is changing lives by providing love and belonging to kids who need it most. In the second half of the show, we talk with Jon Huckins. Jon is the co-founding director of the Global Immersion Project, a peacemaking training organization that equips people of faith to engage our divided world in restorative ways. Jen and Jon discuss how we can be good brothers and sisters to our neighbors who are suffering on the border, and how those with privilege can use it to fight on behalf of their marginalized neighbors.
People give in all kinds of ways. Some give talent. Others give quality time. Some use their influence to shine a light on struggles we need to know about. Our next guest, Ty Pennington, has given in each of these avenues—and shared a few laughs with us along the way! We’ve loved Ty since he lit up our TV screens in the early-2000s (and newly revived!) design series Trading Spaces as the energetic, fun-loving carpenter. Later, Ty was the host of Extreme Makeover: Home Edition, where he and his team of designers and volunteers had the joy of giving a home makeover to deserving families in just seven days (Bonus: Ty gives us the skinny on that now-famous “Move that bus!” line). In his own “Move that bus!” moment, Ty gives his own personal “reveal” in his upcoming book, Life to the Extreme. We learn about his struggle with ADHD, his whirlwind days as a model, and the hilarious way he landed his role on Trading Spaces. Ty shows that giving can come in many forms and from unlikely ways—even from the kid who was always sent to the principal’s office.
“What would the opposite of my life look like?” Today’s guest, Charity: Water founder Scott Harrison, was a Jesus kid turned high-end club promoter, with all the luxury and excess that comes with it. Unfulfilled by his pursuit of “more” and desperate for a change, Scott sold everything he owned and joined a non-profit as a photojournalist. What he saw on his journeys changed his life, as he realized a basic need we take for granted—clean water—wasn’t available in many parts of the world. That discovery led him to found Charity: Water, which has helped 8.5 million people around the world gain access to clean water. We’ll hear about Scott’s new memoir Thirst, and why people are canceling their HBO subscriptions to give to Charity: Water’s super-cool new initiative, Spring. Scott’s story reminds us we’re never too far gone to make a change—our lives can be redeemed, no matter what.
When Fred Rogers was a boy (stay with us here) and he would see scary things on the news, his mother would tell him, “Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.” Fret not, dear ones: Mr. Rogers’ mother is still right. For this episode in our For the Love of Giving series, we’re thrilled to bring you two people who are helping the helpers and fueling their dreams to change the world. Our first guest, Mike Rusch, is the CEO of Pure Charity, a nonprofit that provides software and strategy for more than a thousand organizations worldwide, including Bob Goff’s Love Does, Habitat for Humanity, Help One Now, and our own Legacy Collective. Mike tells us how Pure Charity puts the structure behind nonprofits’ missions to make a difference, why giving circles are impactful, and key advice for those who are looking to start their own nonprofit. We’re also thrilled to have Legacy Collective partner Faitth Brooks on the show! Jen and Faith talk about the unique way Legacy partners with people around the world, some of the life-giving projects Legacy has helped fund, and how you can get involved.
Back by popular demand, it’s one of our very favorite episodes: the Hatmakers’ Holiday Gift Guide! Our resident gift-giving champ (and Jen’s husband) Brandon is back to highlight twelve companies creating top-shelf products and making a difference in our world. Jen and Brandon dish about gifts for everyone on your list: ladies, gents, kids, foodies, coffee addicts, coworkers, lovers of all things cozy, nature folks, and so much more. And if you’re in the car or at the gym, don’t worry! For each item Jen and Brandon mention, you can find photos and product links, PLUS special offers exclusively for you, our faithful listeners! To get all the deets, look for this episode’s transcript at JenHatmaker.com/podcast. Over the next few weeks, keep listening to our “For the Love of Giving” series, where you’ll hear from amazing guests who have centered their lives on helping others. Most importantly, you’ll learn how you can help people close to you, your community, and around the world.
You know those friends who know exactly what to watch and never steer you wrong? The friend who had an actual Smoke Monster terrorize guests during LOST watch parties? That other friend who does 7,000-word recaps of The Bachelor? These are (literally) those kinds of friends: Knox McCoy and Jamie Golden! Knox and Jamie are the hosts of The Popcast, a delightful show that, in Knox and Jamie’s words, “educates us on the things that entertain but do not matter.” Today, these pop culture partners-in-crime wrap up For the Love of TV and give us a gazillion shows we need to binge-watch: comedies, dramas, nuggets from TV shows past, their all-time favorites. Plus, they give us some tips on what not to watch with your family at the holidays (your grandma is thanking us already). This conversation will have you rolling, as will Knox’s debut book, The Wondering Years: How Pop Culture Helped Me Answer Life’s Biggest Questions. We even break out a little TV geek and talk about why there’s (finally!) so much diversity onscreen and what the future of entertainment holds.
Between her roles in The Office and Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, you knew Ellie Kemper had to be delightful in real life—and we’re thrilled to confirm you’re absolutely right! Today Ellie joins our For the Love of TV series, as we continue to dive into the personalities and the “behind the screens” perspectives of some of our favorite TV people! Come along with Jen as we hear about Ellie’s roots in St. Louis and getting high school improv classes from Jon Hamm (yep, THE Don Draper . . . and Ellie’s future TV “husband”), navigating life as an intern on Conan and a writer for McSweeney’s and The Onion, and how she broke into Hollywood (fun fact: Tina Fey wrote the TV pilot for Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt JUST FOR HER). Plus, we hear how Ellie has dusted off her writing chops to produce her hilarious debut book, My Squirrel Days.
This week we’re rolling out the red carpet for a woman with a ton of talent and a heart of gold: Jen’s delightful friend, actor Kimberly Williams-Paisley! You’ve seen Kim in TV and movies since the ‘90s when she got her breakthrough role in Father of the Bride as Steve Martin and Diane Keaton’s onscreen daughter Annie Banks. More recently you’ve seen Kim playing bad-girl Peggy Kenter in Nashville and her stints in fun Hallmark movies like Darrow & Darrow. Jen and Kim dish about the behind-the-scenes fun that goes on with a TV cast and crew: the commercials Kim did for “all the uncomfortable products” when she was just getting started, and the special skills involved with “fake dying” on TV. She tells us how she’s navigated a career that allows her to have a full life with her family: husband Brad Paisley and sons Huck and Jasper. Kim’s commitment to family is particularly poignant as she shares how her family walked alongside her mom as she battled Alzheimer’s, which inspired Kim’s heartbreaking yet hopeful book, Where the Light Gets In**. And just when you think Kim’s heart couldn’t get any bigger, she gives us a sneak peek at the amazing organization she and Brad are launching in Nashville. She’s a bright light indeed, so we’re just gonna say “you’re welcome” for this refreshing dose of goodness in your week.
It’s not every day that you find a hilarious TV show that features moral philosophers and tries to answer “What does it mean to be a good person?” But then again, not every show is NBC’s The Good Place. And today on For the Love, we’re over-the-top thrilled to have Tahani herself, actor Jameela Jamil! Just like the show she works on, Jameela is kind and smart, brilliant and inquisitive. You’ll love Jameela’s humor and wisdom as she traces her journey from growing up in London to working in TV and radio in the UK, then moving to LA and accidentally landing a job on one of the kindest and most forward-thinking sets in Hollywood. One of our favorite things about Jameela is the way she advocates for body positivity, born from years of struggle in her teens and a traumatic event that changed the way she looked at herself forever. Along with her no-airbrush policy, Jameela has started @i_weigh, a body-positive movement on social media that encourages people to define themselves by their character instead of a number on a scale.
Put on your yoga pants and grab some popcorn, because today, ladies and gents, we start a brand-new series: For the Love of TV! And there’s no one better to hold court on our first episode than the Queen of Daytime TV herself, Kathie Lee Gifford! Swapping stories with Kathie Lee is a delight, and we hear about it all: Kathie Lee’s roots in the Christian music industry, her road to ratings darling Live! with Regis & Kathie Lee, her marriage with Frank Gifford, and some of Kathie Lee’s favorite moments from her storied 40+ year career (including one of the most cringe-worthy blunders on live TV). And Kathie Lee is not a one-trick pony: she dazzles with her theologian-level knowledge of scripture and lets us in on the inspiration behind her adorable new children’s book The Gift That I Can Give.
It’s been bananas in the political sphere the past few years, but you knew that. You may not think you have a voice in any of the chaos, but frankly you do—because We The People get to decide who represents us and our values. Your thoughts, your ideas—they have power. And one of the most effective ways to exercise your power is to vote. 2018 midterm elections are approaching around the country on every level: local, state, and national. Our show doesn’t focus on politics, but if you’re living and breathing, it can’t be avoided. And we are a show that isn't afraid to open ourselves up to important conversations. There’s an up-and-coming senate candidate in Jen’s home state of Texas, and he’s been making some waves. Representative Beto O’Rourke is on the campaign trail and called Jen from his car to talk about what’s important to him as pursues this race, and the values he shares with many of our listeners—values like government and healthcare that represent everyone, and helping families stay together and thrive. We follow up this conversation with the ladies from Pantsuit Politics, Sarah and Beth, who have a “relationships before policy” attitude, and they break down Jen’s conversation with Beto from both sides of the aisle.
What was the hardest book for Jen to write? How’s the new book coming along? How on earth do we dip a toe into the publishing waters? And when is she going to write us a cookbook?! No doubt each of us in the For the Love community has had a question or two for our host. And while Jen normally asks the questions, today we turn the tables and give FTL listeners the mic! We asked you to send your book and writing questions, and you delivered some practical and thought-provoking conversation starters. Today in our second Q&A episode, Jen answers all kinds of questions, everything from the craft of writing and how she stays inspired to creating a platform and even how to deal with regular life (her advice on working well with a spouse is gold). And stick around till the very end, when Jen answers all the questions we’ve been asking to each guest in the book series, including what’s saving her life right now.
When we’re kids, we each think about the lives we want when we’re older. What if you worked hard for years to make that dream—a loving husband, doting children, a farmhouse with a literal white-picket fence—a reality? And then, all of a sudden, you’re picking the shards of your realized childhood dream off the ground? That’s what happened to Shannan Martin—and she couldn’t be more thankful. Shannan is a writer and speaker from Goshen, Indiana, who is one of Jen’s literal favorite people. Today we’ll hear how Shannan found her voice in the country and her story in the city, and about her new book The Ministry of Ordinary Places. We’ll learn how she and her jail-chaplain husband Cory found their four children, including one who was a nineteen-year-old father of twins when he came to them, and how Shannan and Cory have learned to parent each of their adopted children. We’ll talk about how to become good neighbors with people who come from different walks of life, whose path to the present doesn’t resemble ours at all, and why sometimes staying in a place you don’t feel completely comfortable in can be one of the bravest things you can do.
This is a special week in For the Love world, because it’s our very first live podcast! A few weeks ago, Jen and author Kelly Corrigan hosted 150 women in Jen’s backyard in Buda, Texas, and today we get to share this conversation with you, our beloved For the Love listeners. Kelly is the New York Times bestselling author of four books, including The Middle Place and her latest Tell Me More: Stories About the 12 Hardest Things I’m Learning to Say. In this live episode, Jen and Kelly talk about being raised by dads who loved them ridiculously, their shared crush on Tom Brokaw, Kelly’s brief flirtation as a shoplifter in the ‘80s, the glories and doldrums of writing, and so much more. This episode is extra long, so pencil in a few more chores or squats at the gym, and settle in for lots of laughter and fun as we sit on the porch with Jen and Kelly.
We’re forging ahead in our For the Love of Books series, and today we host one of the most distinctive and decorated novelists of our time, a woman who challenges us to chew on why we believe what we believe: New York Times bestselling author Jodi Picoult. For more than twenty years, Jodi has brought us novels filled with moral questions, and has presented fully-fledged characters we find ourselves having empathy for, even if we don’t agree with their choices. Jodi models this mindset in her own life as a self-described “accidental activist.” Her latest novel, A Spark of Light, tells a powerful story around an abortion clinic. Jodi talks about the research that went into the novel, and she and Jen lead us into a complicated discussion around the topic that will have us all asking the big questions, and give us insight into differing perspectives. And if you’re a fan of Jodi’s books like we are, you’ll enjoy some behind-the-scenes glimpses into her blockbuster bestseller My Sister’s Keeper, where we hear Jodi’s rationale for that amazing, heart-stopping ending that made Jen bawl in the bathtub.
Our book series is in full swing, and we’re loving the conversations about reading and how words help us voice what really matters to us! This week’s guest is author, poet, and educator Kwame Alexander. And if you’ve never been into poetry, Kwame is here to change your view. He believes poetry is powerful enough to change the world, inspire our youth—even woo a spouse (He wrote his now-wife Stephanie a poem a day for a year. Let the collective swooning begin!). Kwame is the New York Times bestselling author of 28 books for children, teens, and young adults, but his path to becoming a published author wasn’t all flowers and love poems. Kwame shares how his Newbery-winning novel The Crossover faced 22 rejections before a publisher finally picked it up, and the tenacity it took to keep saying “yes” in a sea of “no’s.” Kwame reminds us that so much of our ability to develop an imagination and know our place in the world comes from the pages of a book. His love affair with words will ignite each of us to pursue stories that heal us, move us, and change us.
There's never been a time when words matter more. They have the force to spark ideas, to build, to topple the status quo. Words enter the world when you use your voice. But what is your voice? For some of us, we're not even sure what our voice sounds like, let alone how to use it. That’s why we’re pleased to welcome writer Kathy Khang, our second guest in the For the Love of Books series.
Kathy has struggled with speaking out for her entire life. And despite having so many things to say, for ten years Kathy wrestled with finding the courage to write her new book Raise Your Voice. Today Jen and Kathy talk about raising our kids to have a voice, using our voice in this culture, and the tension that comes with it. Kathy reminds us what we have to say is worthy, it matters, and it's powerful. We all benefit when we learn how we can use our voices to do great good in the world.
Welcome to a brand spanking new series that we are just tickled to launch—For the Love of Books! It’s not like we don’t talk about books all the time anyway, but now we’re dedicating an entire series to officially having amazing conversations with writers, storytellers, lovers of books, and today’s guest, who’s a first-time author: Jessica Honegger from Noonday Collection! Ever wonder how the writing process takes place? How to go from an idea in your head to holding your book in your hands, a book that could possibly be the next bestseller? Jessica’s new book, Imperfect Courage: Live a Life of Purpose by Leaving Comfort and Going Scared, just came out, and we’re going to hear all about how it came to life. For anyone who’s itching to tell their story or step toward the life they’ve only imagined, listen up: this is the episode for you.
Our Parenting series wraps up with an episode that our tribe has requested overwhelmingly. As parents, we are all doing the best we can to raise great kids. But what about the challenges we didn’t expect? What about the kids who have been left behind? This week, we talked to two mamas who gave us insight into a whole other realm of parenting that requires a special resilience. Jami Amerine and her husband Justin have six kids; four biological, and two adopted. Jami tells us about her beautiful but heart-wrenching experience with foster and adoption, why she refers to her youngest kids as the #vandals, and how God is helping her family write a redemption story through loss. Diane Dokko Kim and her husband Eddie have two sons, Jeremy and Justin. In 2004, two-year-old Jeremy was diagnosed with autism and ADD/ADHD. Diane tells us about her personal and family crises after her son’s diagnosis, how she and her husband have maintained a healthy marriage throughout, and how we can be better friends and neighbors to families with special needs. And lest you think this episode is heavier than most, stay till the end to hear the most hilarious #MomFail we’ve ever heard on the podcast (which happened only an hour before recording!).
Over 70% of moms in America work, and let’s face it: they’re pulled in a thousand directions. More than ever, the pressure is sky high to do All The Things well: birthday parties, presentations, laundry, answering emails. There hardly seems time to keep everyone fed and clothed, let alone investing in self-care and meaningful relationships. As a full-time employee in Corporate America, writer Jessica Turner knows the struggle is real. Today she sits down with Jen to discuss practical ways moms can become more efficient and less stressed, and why we shouldn’t focus on creating “work-life balance,” but “work-life satisfaction.” Jessica also shares how we can prioritize self-care, discover more flexibility at work and home, establish clear boundaries, establish easy home management solutions, and cultivate deeper relationships with our partners and friends.
It’s the second half of the epic interview with Jana and Larry King—AKA Jen’s very own parents! In this part of the chat, Jana and Larry dish parenting gold as they talk about solutions for sibling rivalry, how to make tough parenting calls, how to weather tough storms with your adult kids, and the travesty of Jen not having a cool nickname growing up. And stay tuned ‘til the end for the best part of the interview—and grab your tissues while you’re at it. And if you missed Part 1, go back and listen to that too!
This episode is an important chapter in For the Love Podcast history, because we have the most exceptional parenting experts on the show: Jen’s own parents! Jana and Larry King have been married for forty-seven years and had four children, and they’ve seen a few things! Jana, a retired teacher and school administrator, and Larry, a retired minister, take listener questions, and dish out the true scoop on Jen, her siblings and real-life parenting. Toddler years, teen years, sibling rivalry, rebellion, and being the child of adult parents—we cover it all. When you only have the strength to “shoot up prayers like little arrows” for your kids (as Jana did), they understand. Trying to navigate your relationship with your adult kids (and vice versa?) Jen’s dad says it best: “You never stop being a parent, no matter how old your kids get, where they happen to be, or what they're going through.” This extra-special episode is extra long (in fact, it’s in two parts), so add some chores to your list or a couple extra miles to your run, and stay ‘til the end for the most fun and enlightening parenting conversation you’ll have this week!
Parenting is a lifelong job, even after our children have flown the coop and are tending their own broods. Throughout the various stages, from the early “no sleep” baby years to the endless carpool years, we barely have the bandwidth to think about next week, let alone the next few decades. But what happens when our kids grow up and start making their own decisions? How do parents lay the groundwork for happy, healthy relationships with their adult children? And how do we, as daughters and sons, honor our adult parents as we forge our own way in the world? Today’s conversation helps walk us through reframing our parental relationships. Dr. Jim Burns is an author and executive director of the HomeWord Center for Youth and Family at Azusa Pacific University. Dr. Burns tells us how parents can be a sounding board for their adult kids (without being a clanging bell). He also helps us think through scenarios like what do you do if your child partners up with someone you’re not crazy about, what kinds of boundaries to maintain if your child moves home, how to stay connected to a child who shuns a relationship with their parents, and how you, an adult child yourself, can create a healthy bond with your own parents.
From your mouth to Jen’s headphones, we’re starting a brand-new series you requested: For the Love of Parenting! This series will not only speak to those of us who are in the thick of parenting kids at every stage, but for those of us who are learning to honor our parents as adults and come alongside our friends with kids. Our first guest is actor and author Candace Cameron Buré, who was famously parented in the beloved sitcom Full House and is now the one doing the parenting in Netflix’s Fuller House. She shares about her own experiences growing up in Hollywood and how giving back was modeled to her at an early age by her own mother. Offset, Candace has been a mom for more than two decades and shares the joys and challenges of “surrendering to motherhood” during a season of professional success, and how she chose to instill small acts kindness into her daily life in an effort to positively impact her family and the world around her.
Nearly forty years ago, they met at camp. Then they got married. Now they’re running the same camp! This week, we’re closing out For the Love of Summer with our crowdsourced episode, featuring Stacy and Darell Smith. For more than thirty years, Stacy and Darell have been directors at The Firs, a Christian camp organization in gorgeous Bellingham, Washington. And they have seen it all: kid tomfoolery, pet shenanigans, pranks galore. They’ve even rigged dates between their camp counselors (some of which resulted in wedding bells!). Stay and Darell are experts in summer magic and creating memories for kids (and leadership skills in young adults) that’ll last a lifetime. By the end of this conversation, you’ll want them to adopt you, too.
School’s out, the pool/beach/lake is calling, and vacation is just around the corner. For many of us, summer fashion means flip flops, sundresses and living in our bathing suits. For others, summer clothing choices, where often “less is more,” can cause a case of the summer blues. Today’s guest gives us pro-tips that will help EVERY body to make fun, fashionable and affordable summer choices for all the things we love about summer. Lizz Wasserman is VP of Fashion at ModCloth, a forward thinking clothing and accessories company who endeavors to make fun, beautiful clothes for women of every shape, size and pocketbook. Jen and Lizz discuss common summer clothing challenges, how to create a summer capsule wardrobe, and the miracle bathing suit that looks good on just about everyone (Jen has it in four colors!). We also learn that by simplifying our summer wardrobes to just a few key clothing items that make us feel our best, we can have that easy and breezy summer we've always dreamed of.
Summertime is book time. Whether you’re by the pool, on a road trip, clutching your pearls in the AC, or on a cruise (#jealous), now’s the time to escape. And there’s no one better for book talk than Anne Bogel, author and founder of Modern Mrs. Darcy, the loveliest reading and lifestyle blog you ever did see. Anne stopped by to tell us a few of her favorite summer reads, and we covered it all: classic beach reads, family sagas, thrillers, nonfiction, books for all the kids, and even Anne’s all-time favorite book (of the moment). And keep your ears peeled for a fun freebie that will help all your summer reading dreams come true.
Rachel Macy Stafford was missing life. Her planner bulged, her phone buzzed, her calendar constantly full. In a painful moment of realization, Rachel discovered she was choosing distraction over connection with her young family—and she decided enough was enough. In 2010, she started the Hands Free Mama blog, where she documents her journey to slow down and focus on what truly matters. Since then Rachel has become the New York Times bestselling author of three books: Hands Free Mama, Hands Free Life, and Only Love Today. In our conversation, Rachel tells us what living “hands free” means and gives us practical tools to help us slow down. We talk about how to teach our kids to use technology, how to let go of mom guilt, and what kids really want to do with their parents this summer (spoiler alert: it’s not going to Disney World).
If there were ever a family travel expert, it’s Tsh Oxenreider. In 2014, Tsh and her husband Kyle sold their house, put all their stuff in storage, and went on an almost year-long trip around the world with their three kids—ages four, six, and nine. Tsh wrote this experience in her phenomenal travel memoir At Home in the World.
Today, Tsh kicks off our “For the Love of Summer” series and tells us about her fascinating trip around the globe. She also gives some practical tools to help us make travel memories on any schedule or budget. Tsh has a ton of tips on packing, saving money, setting the right expectations, stewarding our kids’ energy levels, and so much more. Tsh helps us see that we can create lifelong memories with our families with just a backpack, some snacks, and a laid-back attitude.
It’s the final episode in the “For the Love of Exploring Our Faith” series, and you guys begged to hear from this week’s guest. Not that we blame you—we love him, too! Brett Trapp is a marketing consultant and storyteller who lives in Atlanta’s Cabbagetown neighborhood. The son of a Southern Baptist preacher from small-town Alabama, for more than a decade Brett kept a journal on being Christian and being gay. One morning in 2016, Brett hopped on Facebook and began sharing the story he had been writing privately for so long. In his forty-four-part series, Blue Babies Pink, Brett recounts his journey of growing up, coming out, and reconciling his faith. It’s equal parts whimsical, harrowing, hilarious, and wise.
What is saving our life right now? Having the matriarch of our favorite question as part of our “Exploring Our Faith” series this week! Barbara Brown Taylor is a New York Times best-selling author, teacher, and Episcopal priest. Her last book,Learning to Walk in the Dark (2014), was featured on the cover of TIME magazine. In 2014. TIME also included her on its annual list of Most Influential People. Long a favorite author of Jen’s, Barbara has a unique way of sharing essential truths about beauty and about God, and shows us that it cannot be contained inside any walls that people build. Her view is that Jesus “placed higher value on human relationships than on religion. He never told his followers to love their religion—just their neighbors, their enemies, and God."
This week we’re coming in strong in our For the Love of Exploring our Faith series with New York Times bestselling author, speaker and self-proclaimed “Bible Nerd,” Rachel Held Evans. Rachel’s writings have resonated with many of us who have walked through doubts, questions and concerns about faith and religion. Rachel shows how the Bible can hold up to our fiercest questions, our strongest doubts and the most significant of disagreements. She encourages us that “God is not a God of self-improvement plans and 10 steps. Ours is a God of death and resurrection—and that God can take anything and bring it to life.”
NOTE: This interview was conducted while Rachel, 9 months pregnant, was having contractions at a minute a part—and although we were hoping for an on-air podcast baby arrival, we still claim our part in the process (and Jen lobbied hard for namesake rights). Congratulations, Rachel, from all of us at the For the Love Podcast on the arrival of your baby girl!
We’re 5 episodes into our “For the Love of Exploring Our Faith” Series and the Christian guru of love himself, Bob Goff, joins Jen on the show this week. Bob’s journey has been one of taking risks, defying norms, and living by faith. A self-proclaimed “recovering lawyer,” Bob left his practice after 25 years to embark on a path of love. He wrote a book about his journey to and from that point called Everybody Always which became a staple to Christians (and others) about what it means to put love into action. Bob and his wife Maria have demonstrated that “love in action” to Jen and Brandon’s family over the years, and they discuss what it looks like to be present and sacrificial in our relationship with others (that includes the difficult people in our lives), and how Jesus calls us to love “Everybody Always.”
We continue to explore our faith in Eps 4 of this series with writer and speaker AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN. Austin is a practitioner who helps schools, nonprofits, and religious organizations confront racism and practice genuine inclusion. Her writing has appeared in outlets like Christianity Today, Relevant, Sojourners, and The Christian Century. Austin insists that to make significant strides, “We have to know where we've been—before we can figure out where it is we're going." Austin and Jen wrestle through a tough review of America’s history of racial division and discuss meaningful next steps toward repentance, equality, and healing. “We all can do something, and it’s our job to figure out what that something is, and let that lead to more somethings." You won’t want to miss this one.
Our powerful series “For the Love of Exploring Our Faith” continues with author, community leader and story-teller Josh DuBois. Josh has had the unique role of being “The President’s Pastor In Chief” during Barack Obama’s early years of presidency. He spearheaded important work on responsible fatherhood, grassroots community partnerships and foreign affairs. From there, he’s dedicated his life to help companies, individuals and communities navigate tough issues related to race and religion. He uses his platform to support dramatic and documentary films that tells stories that bridge the divides around racial issues and religion. He gives an inside view into the Obama administration and the commitment to faith he found from the first family during his tenure with the White House.
The Enneagram has surged back into popular culture the last couple of years. This personality test is marked by its unique (and ancient) principles that help us better understand ourselves. Unless you’ve been under a rock, you’ve probably heard “number thumpers” talk in terms of their type; “Oh, that is totally such a ‘seven’ thing to say.’” Therapist, Episcopal priest, speaker and Enneagram expert Ian Morgan Cron joins us for Eps 2 of For the Love of Exploring Our Faith. Ian walks us through this “journey of self” that he says “ups the self-awareness quotient in human beings, which is—particularly in faith communities—a sorely overlooked discipline. Think about what Calvin said; ‘without knowledge of self, there is no knowledge of God.’” The Enneagram helps us relate to others with more compassion as well, as we begin to see how our type interacts with theirs. Ian illustrates this by pointing out; “The loneliness, or the fear, or the sadness in me sees the loneliness, the fear, and the sadness in you." Ian digs in deep with Jen culminating with a “blow your mind” moment that has her re-assessing her personality type as they hone in on ALL the facets that uniquely make up each of our personalities.
We have a powerful start to a brand-new series: For the Love of Exploring Our Faith. Speaker, writer and activist Lisa Sharon Harper comes from a long line of Americans—African-Americans who have been in America since 1687. Slavery existed in her family. Lisa wrestles with the Good News of the Gospel and how that translates to folks who have been victims of race-motivated atrocities—from people who claimed that Gospel as their truth. She walks us through the history of evangelism and where some things got twisted. Prepare to be schooled and to take in some eye-opening information (pen and paper at the ready!) because Lisa breaks it down for us with the meanings of original Hebrew writings and shows us the truth of what God intended His Kingdom to be--“ALL blessing all.”
Closing out our For the Love of Women Who Built series, we have Meredith Walker, the Co-Founder of Amy Poehler’s Smart Girls, an organization which is dedicated to helping young people cultivate their authentic selves. They emphasize intelligence and imagination over “fitting in.” Meredith Walker began her television career producing the Peabody and Emmy award-winning Nick News with Linda Ellerbee, and then went on to head up the talent department for Saturday Night Live, where she met and became fast friends with Amy Poehler. They shared tales of their own upbringings and dreamed about how great it would be to create something to help girls get through their own awkward teen and pre-teen years. They started Smart Girls with a “mix of great planning, and luck, and not planning,” and now they help girls all over the world navigate the choppy waters of adolescence. Meredith shares her personal story of following the “unscripted path” and encourages those of us who have had an unconventional life’s journey to embrace what we care about and recognize the value we add to our world.
You spoke—we listened. Sara Cunningham was your nominee from the tribe for the last episode of our “Women Who Built It,” series and we couldn’t be more thrilled to hear about what she is building. When Sara’s son came to her with the decision that he was going to live as a gay man on his 21st birthday, Sara’s life went into a tailspin. After 20 years in the church and actively “praying the gay away,” with and on behalf of her son, she was at a crossroads. Her search for resources as a Christian mom turned up very little, but her research on the data and statistics out of the LGBTQ community devastated her. The rejection she saw from families, churches, and communities was more than she could bear. She needed to begin the work of accepting her son, and she started by getting involved with Free Mom Hugs. Showing up at a Pride Rally with a homemade “Free Mom Hugs,” button, she simply gave out hugs—some to young people whose own mothers hadn’t hugged them in years. Whatever your beliefs, you will want to hear Sara’s moving journey and her mission of spreading healing—not only to a community who often feels marginalized—but to their families in the church who are looking for answers.
Our fabulous “Women Who Built It” series continues with the founder of Be The Bridge, Latasha Morrison. Latasha’s mission is to encourage racial reconciliation among all ethnicities, to promote racial unity in America, and to develop others to do the same. She facilitates “Be The Bridge Groups” that provide a “safe place for white people and a safe place for people of color to communicate and share their hearts.” She and Jen share about the incredible experiences they’ve had by being a part of bringing these two groups together as one to ask questions, and describe the life changing nature of these interactions. Latasha believes that in order to bridge the divides, we need to get to know each other and strip away the misconceptions and stereotypes each group might have about the other one, building a foundation of trust and movement toward a new landscape of awareness and understanding.
Episode 3 of the “For The Love of Women Who Built It" series features the feisty and funny Nicole Walters. At just 28 years old, Nicole was a top-selling executive at Fortune 500's and was managing multi-billion dollar business relationships for an S&P International healthcare organization. With a six-figure salary, first-class flights, and fancy hotels, she thought she had arrived. She shares with us that her real “arrival” came when a family crisis jolted her into the realization that "life was too short to be comfortable, but unfulfilled." She made a bold, and very public move (in front of 10,000 people on Periscope, no less) to leave her comfortable corporate situation and embark on a new course to “help everyday entrepreneurs live and work in their purpose.” Nicole shares how the tough experiences of “always being the minority,” allowed her to build a platform that welcomes people of all races, shades, and colors, ethnicities, and faiths, and how getting to "the next thing" revealed her true purpose.
Episode 2 in our “For the Love of Women Who Built It” features the fearless and heroic (CNN even awarded her with nomination as a 2017 CNN Hero) Becca Stevens, the president and founder of Thistle Farms. Becca describes her “aha” moment 21 years ago when she no longer could stay quiet about what she was seeing regarding women who were subject to sex trafficking and abuse (before “trafficking” was even a widely-used term). She started the organization with the Magdalene Center which welcomed women who had been subject to sex trafficking or abuse by providing free residences; taking care of their housing, medical care, therapy, and education for two years. From this, she moved into a social enterprise that creates beautiful and healing products for the body and employs these same women in need. The global market of Thistle Farms employs over 1,800 women worldwide, and the national network has over 40 sister communities. Becca’s new book (and mantra for her entire organization) is “Love Heals.”
It’s new series time, and we’re excited about this 6-part series featuring “Women Who Built It.” This series is filled with women who are slaying in their careers. They’re building amazing spaces in business, ministry, and culture, and they’re here to share with us the triumphs, heartaches and leaps of faith it took to build something important. Our first guest is Jo Saxton, one of Jen’s heroes in the leadership space. She’s an international speaker and an author who has a deep passion for leading women toward their full potential. Jo gives us insight, as women, into our sometimes complicated relationship with ambition and provides context for the current culture where women are acknowledging the unwarranted obstacles that have long been in their paths (and being heard) across all industries. Her ultimate goal is to show women of all kinds (mothers, grandmothers, godmothers, sisters, aunts, friends) their incredible influence on shaping lives.
We close out with a last laugh in our "For the Love of Laughter" series with none other than one of our own. We asked you: "Who's funny? Who is that funny person we should absolutely have on the podcast?" And you responded--Melissa Radke! Melissa is that funny friend who wryly observes all the things in life that we face as women and moms, and takes them to task--hilariously head on. Whether it's struggling with "Mom Guilt," or trying to make logical the complexities of "Red Ribbon Week"--140 million viewers of her videos can't get enough of her side-splitting soliloquies. You'll also hear Melissa's amazing mom hacks for everything from kids' costumes to a "nutritious" lunch. If you've been labeled as "too" much of something--too big, too loud, too vocal, too much--you'll find courage in Melissa's message of pushing aside what some people might say you are, and believing in who you're made to be.
John Crist has a gift for making us laugh at ourselves. John was the middle child in a family of 8 kids and found his comedic sensibilities while growing up in the church. His humor gently pokes fun at some of our religious “sacred cows,” and gives us permission to laugh at our foibles. His videos (which collectively have garnered over 150 million views) around these topics are spot on, including: “Millennial International” and “Church Hunters.” John doesn’t reserve his brand of humor just for the church, however, and has been playing comedy clubs with the likes of Dave Chappelle, Jeff Foxworthy, Trevor Noah and other comedy legends. He was also a finalist in Comedy Central’s “Up Next” Comedy Competition. John and Jen discuss when jokes are amazing and when they are hilariously bad, why comedy is more important than just making people laugh, and why it’s okay—even when our world seems pulled apart at the seams—to find some humor in the midst of it.
Anjelah Johnson didn’t always want to be a comedian. Her dream was to be an actress, and after a short stint as an Oakland Raiders cheerleader, she followed that path to L.A. With a lot of time on her hands, and no leads in sight, she did a lot of praying and a lot of waiting. Persuaded by a friend to take a free joke-telling class they were offering at her church, Anjelah tried her hand at her first comedy bit called “Nail Salon,” and suddenly found herself to be an overnight YouTube sensation. Gigs with MadTV, the advent of another viral character “Bon Qui Qui,” comedy specials on Netflix, and multiple tours around the world have become Anjelah’s “new normal,” but she believes wholeheartedly that faith and being open to what was in front of her led her to where she is today.
Episode 2 of our “For the Love of Laughter” series features “Chewbacca Mom” herself - Candace Payne! You may remember a little video of a mom in her car who bought a Star Wars Chewbacca Mask (presumably for her kids), but was so entertained by it herself, she couldn’t stop laughing! Candace and her infectious laugh went on to capture America’s hearts (with over175+million views), and she has since been on a slew of talk shows including Good Morning America, The Late, Late Show with James Corden, and Entertainment Tonight. It wasn’t always easy for Candace to laugh unabashedly. Emerging from a tough childhood that included a period of homelessness, she battled depression and self-image issues. Today, she is resolute to recognize and appreciate the simple joys of life. She and Jen discuss everything from their favorite comedians, to why tacos are an all-important food group, to why everyone should have a crazy sock collection.
This week we start a brand new series - For the Love of Laughter!
Jen’s love for comedy inspired this series, and with all we have going in our world today, it seemed like the perfect time for a good guffaw. Our guests this week are comedian and SNL alum Kevin Nealon and his wife, Parks & Rec actress Susan Yeagley. Kevin and Susan discuss how they got into the business of comedy, and the heart behind their love of laughter. We’ll also hear what it’s like when two funny people are married (and the story of how Matt Damon was infamously not at their wedding). AND, as an FTL exclusive, we’ll also hear the joke Susan forbade Kevin to tell, until now, where she’s granted him permission to tell it right here on the show (and you’ll understand why it was forbidden).
We’re wrapping up our “For the Love of New Beginnings” Series, and we’ll just warn you, episode 5 may involve a tear or two. Our guests this week, as always for the last episode in a series, are straight from Jen’s tribe. Jen had occasion to meet Donna Cheek, a designer at Glory Haus home furnishings, during a visit to the company a few years ago. Donna’s life had never been easy; from growing up in an alcoholic home, to battling with chronic illness and ultimately facing homelessness. You’ll hear what kept her going, and the times she almost threw in the towel, and about the moment that hands were outstretched to offer some hope (in the form of another Glory Haus Designer, Sheila Lynch) that ultimately gave her the chance to start anew. It’s a story of courage, resilience, and the resounding message to “never give up.”
This week on episode 4 of our “For the Love of New Beginnings” series, Jen talks with the amazing Rachel Hollis, founder of the lifestyle website TheChicSite.com and CEO of her own media company, Chic Media. Rachel shares the auspicious beginnings of her company that was basically inspired by a moment where her Thanksgiving turkey caught fire. She goes on to detail how she reinvented herself from turkey burner to entrepreneur and the life-changing journey toward believing in herself. Rachel has written a brand new book that encourages women to believe that they can become what they want to be, and how an unexpected conversation with Jen on a bus in Ethiopia inspired the title. “Girl Wash Your Face,” which hits shelves in February 2018. For those of you who have felt guilty about "taking time for you, your dreams, your hopes and yourselves," this episode is for you.
It’s Episode #3 of our phenomenal “For the Love of New Beginnings” Series. This week, Jen talks to Kristin Schell, the author of The Turquoise Table and leader of the Front Yard People movement. Kristin shares how she was longing for connection and belonging in her community and was struck by the realization that she didn’t know many of her neighbors, their names or much less their stories. This moved her to take a step toward that connection, and she started with a brightly colored turquoise picnic table that she put smack dab in the middle of her front yard. Kristin’s simple act of inviting connection at a turquoise picnic table has spawned a movement that has spread across the country; from individuals and families putting turquoise tables in their front yards right along with churches, businesses and parks getting involved. We’ll all be inspired and challenged to get to know our neighbors in the new year with the simple ideas and resources Kristin passes on that can bring the joy of community right to our own front yards.
Our “For the Love of New Beginnings” series continues strong with Enneagram expert Chris Heuertz. Are you a 2 (The Helper) or perhaps an 8 (The Challenger)? Or maybe a 3 (The Achiever), like Jen? If you don’t know what the heck we’re talking about, we’re here to help. Chris has written a new book called The Sacred Enneagram: Finding Your Unique Path to Spiritual Growth and shares why The Enneagram is one of the most powerful and insightful tools for understanding ourselves and others. Jen and Chris both share how knowing their Enneagram types has helped them embrace their strengths and their flaws and how it has enhanced understanding and compassion in their key relationships. If you haven’t taken the Enneagram, you are going to want to after you listen to this episode. Visit JenHatmaker.com/podcast for links to Enneagram Institute resources.
Happy New Year and Happy New Series; For the Love of New Beginnings! We’re going to dive into the top of the year with guests who have had to start over, re-invent themselves, embrace new seasons, refresh or reset; and we'll learn first-hand how they navigated it. Episode one’s guest is Emily Ley; author and creator of The Simplified Planner. A busy Mom (3 kids under 6, including toddler twins) and head of a flourishing company, Emily found that striving for “all the things” was leaving her with no time or energy to enjoy the good stuff in her own life. A champion for helping others organize, declutter, and simplify, Emily’s own life was lacking in simple joys due to a difficult-to-live-up-to standard of perfection she strove to attain. She shares how she had to admit her need to give herself some grace, pare down, learn to say the dreaded “no-“word, and take some steps back in order to move ahead. She’ll also give us some GREAT bringing-order-to-chaos hacks, like answering the question Jen posed herself: "Why do I have 17 spatulas??” Emily's new book is A Simplified Life: Tactical Tools for Intentional Living.
To close out our "For the Love of Fall & Holidays" series, we have a story from one of our own from the Tribe. We asked you to tell us about someone you knew who was opening their hearts, homes and tables to others during the holidays in unique and amazing ways, and Jacob & Peggy Smith were the ones who came shining through. A young couple married for only 2 years, Jacob & Peggy had been raised in environments where fostering children was a huge priority. When they encountered a family of 9 siblings who needed their help, their family answered the call in an extraordinary way. They talk with Jen about the challenges and rewards of expanding their family as Jen shares her own family's adoption experience. Stay tuned to hear how you can help this brand new big family with even bigger hearts by giving toward their Amazon Wish List this Christmas.
It's the most wonderful (and volatile) time of the year and this fourth episode in our "For the Love of Fall & Holidays" series is a can't-miss. If your holiday routine has become a pattern of stretching yourself too thin, tirelessly trying to please relatives and friends, taking care of others at the expense of your own sanity and, thus, turning the holidays into a season of dread, you'll want to carve out some time for this episode. Before the whirlwind of travel, family gatherings and general holiday mayhem begin, come sit in on my chat with the experts behind the blockbuster Boundaries series of books, Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. (You've heard so many of my guests mention them in other episodes; it's because these guys are the best in this field.) They'll tackle these all-too-common holiday pitfalls with humor, grace and very practical advice revolving around 3 key ideas you need to hear to keep from going bonkers this season. To a happy and healthy holiday season!
It’s the most wonderful time of the year and amidst the swirl of shopping, cooking, traveling, parties and endless holiday activities—none of us have time to be asking the question…”whatever will I wear?” Looking good while doing all the holiday things doesn’t have to hard! Megan Tamte and Kristina Klockars, founders of the popular retail clothing store Evereve, have built their business on making fashion accessible to all women, catering specifically to moms who may struggle with a fashion world that seems less attainable while managing the demands of a family. Megan and Kristina have a passion for empowering women by de-mystifying the style process and by helping women choose clothes and accessories that fit their own personal style and body type. All their amazing fashion recommendations will be available through links in this podcast transcript at jenhatmaker.com/podcast!
Jen and her husband Brandon, who she dubs as the “heavyweight champion of gift giving,” record a special podcast together to discuss their favorite gift giving ideas for 2017! PLUS hear behind-the-scenes stories about Jen’s many earnest attempts to compete with Brandon in the gift giving department -- with hilarious results. Whether you are an amazing gift giver or if you suffer from gift-giving anxiety, we've got so many incredible gift ideas for the people you care about this year. The products you'll hear about run the gamut from fun to practical and/or benefit an organization that is helping people and doing good in the world. Whether you're just starting your Christmas list or trying to wrap it up for those "hard-to-find-the perfect-gift-for" for people in your life, you're gonna want to take some notes as you listen to this episode. Or better yet, visit JenHatmaker.com/podcast to find all the links to the products mentioned in this episode, PLUS special offers on many of the products mentioned as our special gift to you, the listeners of the For the Love Podcast.
Jen has an epic chat with one of her favorite fellow fall football fans--New York Times bestselling author, Melanie Shankle. You won't want to miss their school song sing-off, their thoughts on game day foods, and learning why Melanie actually stayed in college longer than she had to [next level football fandom]. They'll also discuss fall fashion and how some trends elude them (just say "no" to Mom Jeans). They'll also discuss how teens now are different than their teen selves in the 80's. Remember hot rollers? They do. We'll also learn about Melanie's new book project Church of the Small Things, and what it means, this fall, to really cherish the present season of life that you're in.
What’s more fun than perusing fall recipes from a Pioneer Woman cookbook on a chilly fall day? Actually talking with the Pioneer Woman! Ree Drummond, the Pioneer Woman herself, joins the show this week! She and Jen dish about fall football, ranch life, kids going off to college (single tear), and the one food item that will never be included in a Pioneer Woman recipe. Ree also shares the joys and challenges of managing all things "Pioneer Woman” (The cookbooks! The restaurant! The TV show! The magazine!) and how she does it without losing her sanity.
We’re wrapping up our “For the Love of Food” series with stories from you--Jen’s Tribe--of how you're gathering with food in the best possible ways! Tanorria Askew quit her corporate job and followed her cooking dreams—she made it to the final 4 of Master Chef (with big kudos from Gordon Ramsay, no less) and now has established Tanorria’s Table, a personal chef company with a heart for community and a soul for diversity. Elyse, Suzanna and Lauren are friends who have found the secret of life around food prep for their families with “group cooking” allowing them quality friend time and freezer meals for the entire week. [Bonus: we learn about Jen’s secret “beer & deer” freezer as well.] Jen’s friend Melissa Navarro rounds things out by sharing how she’s basically adopted a college by preparing a weekly meal/get together in her home for student athletes who are far from their own homes. You guys always bring the best stories!
Bill Smith had us at, “hello, may I deliver your groceries right to your home??” He’s the CEO and founder of Shipt, a membership-based grocery marketplace that delivers fresh foods and household essentials straight to people’s houses. He basically invented a service for those of who us who haaate setting foot in a grocery store (herding 3 children under 5 in a store while buying groceries for the week? Byeeeeee!). We’ll learn how Bill came up with this idea—and yes, it actually was while he himself was in a grocery store with his own small children (he just gets us!). We’ll talk to him about how this spark of an idea has grown to over 70 cities and over 20,000 personal Shipt shoppers (these are people who LOVE grocery shopping. Is that normal??). We’ll also learn that while Bill is committed to the success of his company, what gets up him up in the morning is the fact that his people are making a difference in not only the lives of busy families and stressed out moms, but in the life of an aging grandparent, the house-bound cancer patient, and others for whom grocery shopping isn’t possible. Plus, he’s giving back to the communities Shipt serves in big ways and values “the eternal significance” of helping people as part of his personal mission. And, when you hear what’s saving Bill’s life right now, you’re gonna love him even more. STAY TUNED TO THE END OF THE PODCAST FOR AN AMAZING OFFER, JUST FOR YOU, DEAR LISTENERS.
Our food series is ramping up with beloved celebrity chef, best-selling author, and mom of four, Melissa D’Arabian. Melissa was launched into the world of celebrity chef-dom by winning season 5 of “The Next Food Network Star” and started her first show, Ten Dollar Dinners. From there Melissa has gone on to write cookbooks, weekly columns, host webshows for the Food Network and so much more. Melissa is driven to show people that the preparing of food for others shouldn’t be a performance, but should be about hospitality, intimacy and connection. She that time when Tyler Florence told her she was pretty while simultaneously dissing one of her cooking tips, and as only a chef can, she declares that Jen is “juicy and amazing.” Tied into her mission of teaching hospitality and community around the table , Melissa’s faith and gratefulness for God’s gift of food is at the core of all of her culinary endeavors.
Danielle Walkeris the author and photographer of the New York Times Best Selling cookbook Against all Grain. Danielle battled an autoimmune disorder that baffled doctors. Convinced it had everything to do with what she was eating, Danielle started experimenting in thekitchen to to regain her health through the medicine of food. She is dedicated to helping others find wellness without sacrificing flavor or fun. Not only does she have amazing recipes for those of us who have committed to a paleo diet, but the pictures she takes will make you want to eat every last thing in her books. And yes, there are desserts! You'll also learn all about the power of the cashew in creating creamy sauces that will fool even the most skeptical of your family. We'll have all the recipes, tips and ideas she discusses on the show on JenHatmaker.com/podcast.
Welcome to our all new series on (wait for it) FOOD! We kick off this series on one of our most FAVORITE topics with the amazing cookbook author and host of Food Network’s Aarti Party, Aarti Sequeira! Aarti got her start as a journalist and working CNN, dreaming of becoming the next Oprah. Always a lover of food, she began blogging about cooking and she and her husband started a YouTube cooking-variety show in their tiny L.A. home kitchen. Eventually Aarti competed on and won Season 6 of Food Network Star with her trademark food signature: American favorites with an Indian soul. She has gone on to to star in her highly successful show, along with appearances on The Talk, Dr. Oz and the Today Show (where she freaked out Al Roker by telling him she licked his plate!). By the end of this episode, you’ll want to steal Aarti's leftovers (like Jen confesses she actually once did). BONUS INTERVIEW: Jen chats with one of our own from The Tribe, the designer of our amazing pink podcast logo; Jenny Mecher of ThreeLetterBirds.com.
When Jen's Tribe speaks, we get the most incredible guests, and for the wrap-up of our Moxie series, Chrissy Kelly is no exception. We asked you to tell us who you knew that had the most “moxie” – someone who epitomizes grit, determination and perseverance--and Chrissy’s name came up a hundred fold. Chrissy shares her journey as a “Type A” mom, an introvert, a writer, a blogger on her new site "lifewithgreyson.com," and a compulsive photographer. Her “check the box” life was turned upside down when her first son was diagnosed with autism, and just as she started to deal with a “new normal,” her second son was diagnosed as well. Her story is for all of us who have had to pick up the broken pieces of our lives, and find the strength and courage to carry on when it seems we’re dealt more hardships than we can bear.
Jen meets up with her feisty and funny friend, Amena Brown. Amena is an author, spoken word poet, speaker and event host. Amena shares some of the story of how she came into her own; which she also recounts in her new book "How To Fix a Broken Record." She describes the freedom of what's it like when you are finally true to yourself. She also shares how she discovered the power of 'yes' and 'no,' what it's like to go to a Tall People's Club, how she "kissed dating goodbye (but not forever)," and relates her journey through the lens of popular music that identified the various seasons of her life (Sasha Fierce, anyone?).
Jen interviews her “ride or die” friend; musician, songwriter and author, Nichole Nordeman. Nichole and Jen will be taking off together for the “Moxie Matters” tour (coming to a city near you starting October 2017 - moxiematterstour.com ). They share their hearts behind taking "moxie" on the road and share highlights/hijinks from their previous times on tour. Nichole also talks about her latest album (that should include a pack of Kleenex with purchase, btw) called “Every Mile Mattered,” and the moxie it took for her “slow down,” at the apex of her singing career.
Jen and Glennon have a conversation about the flip side of moxie—the mess that usually precedes it. Glennon is the wildly popular curator of the online community “Momastery.” She is a best-selling author of the book “Carry On, Warrior,” and her latest book is called “Love Warrior.” Glennon speaks candidly of what it looks like to let go of trying to be perfect, of trying to fit in, and how embracing your pain leads to transformation and beauty.
We asked Jen’s tribe to submit stories of women they knew who defined “moxie” like no others. Overwhelmingly, Anna LeBaron and Ruth Wariner, authors of The Polygamist’s Daughter and The Sound of Gravel, respectively, were at the top of the list. Anna & Ruth share how they overcame the worst of circumstances in their childhoods as part of a polygamist cult, and how later they discovered the tragedy that bound them, but didn’t define them.
In our continuing series featuring women with "moxie," Jen visits with fellow Austinite and good friend Jessica Honegger, who built her company, Noonday Collection, as a socially responsible fashion brand to help artisans who live in vulnerable communities all over the world. Since growing the company to its presence in over 13 countries, along with a network of 2000 ambassadors across the U.S, Jessica gives insight into the challenges of building a business and the rewards of helping communities abroad, while empowering women to get involved with something meaningful and lasting. And y'all, have you seen their things? Who says social responsibility can't be stylish?
The Whole30. You've done it. Jen's done it. Someone you know is on it right now. Melissa Hartwig is the co-founder of this wildly successful dietary program that has helped millions of people transform their health, habits and relationship with food. Melissa tells the story of how her personal 30-day dietary and lifestyle experiment provided the basis for the Whole30 movement, and shares with Jen her journey from the lows of drug and alcohol addiction to the heights of becoming a health and lifestyle maven. This podcast calls for a cake (made with almond flour and no gluten or sugar, of course!)!
Researcher & storyteller Dr. Brené Brown brings us her thoughts on shame, suffering, courage and vulnerability during this week’s conversation with Jen; drawing from her many years as a research professor, and as a woman who is seeking her most authentic life. She discusses true vulnerability and our craving for connection. She also flips the script on suffering; reframing it as a catalyst for being overcomers in our lives by asserting: “’moxie’ doesn't come from all the good stuff that happens to you. It's from working through the bad stuff.” You’ll laugh at stories about “Hairy Toes and Sexy Rice” and be inspired by the tough path she forged in bringing the topic of shame to the forefront of the academic community. Brené's new book, Braving the Wilderness: The Quest for True Belonging and The Courage to Stand Alone, releases fall 2017.
Kicking off the new “For the Love of Moxie” series is Luvvie Anjayi, a hilarious writer and blogger who epitomizes what “moxie” is all about. Fierce and funny, Luvvie’s blog, awesomelyluvvie.com, has a massive following, and her new book I’m Judging You: The Do Better Manual, is a New York Times bestseller and has been picked up by producer extraordinaire Shonda Rhimes (Grey's Anatomy, Scandal). for the creation of a new TV show. In the book, she covers a host of topics, serious and funny, including our “bad behavior” on social media (we discuss that you can still “poke” people on Facebook. Why?) and a host of other things going on in pop culture, TV, movies, activism and life. Luvvie shares how she was the world’s longest overnight success, and that building a brand doesn’t mean having to lose yourself.
Jen asked YOU, her Tribe, to tell us your best friendship stories. After hundreds of responses on Facebook, we ended up with two sets of friends sharing their amazing stories with Jen—probably the most touching friendship stories you will ever hear! Vivian and Nancy recount the story of Nancy’s friendship with her friend Denise and the promise she made to her that altered the course of her life. Ann and Anne became “mother and daughter” after a series of events that will bring tears to your eyes. Get the Kleenex, y’all; these stories. We. Just. Can’t. Even.
Nobody has more fun with their friends than Annie F. Downs (the “F” stands for “fun!”). Author of 100 Days to Be Brave, Annie is a national speaker and lover of banjos, boiled peanuts, and Westward expansion (???) --we promise; it will all make sense. You’ll love getting to know Annie, plus you’ll learn some tips for navigating online dating, how to be a “show-er-upper” for your girlfriends, and ways just to have more fun generally in life.
Did you know that there is a science around “girlfriendhood?” Shasta Nelson, a noted “friendship expert” and author of a book series on friendships, does. Shasta’s life work is to help women make and keep great friendships, and she has studied the actual science of why having girlfriends makes us stronger, smarter and healthier! Plus, you’ll find out what kind of friend Jen is, when you hear the results of her taking Shasta’s “friendtimacy” quiz (don’t worry, she passed).
When talking about girlfriends, no one has more insight than the original “best girlfriend” herself – Vicki Iovine! Author of the “Girlfriends Guide” series, Vicki has guided a slew of women through pregnancy, motherhood, toddlers, and even getting their groove back! She shares how she started writing for girlfriends from a practical standpoint, peppering her stories with her hilarious take on all the things women face. She also shows us her perspective on how “lifetime” girlfriends bring us joy, strength and a lot of fun.
In our debut podcast, Jen talks with her good girlfriend Shauna Niequist, author of Present Over Perfect. Jen and Shauna swap stories about their friendship and how their circle of girlfriends give them life, laughter and encouragement. They also discuss how good girlfriends will stand by you through everything from wardrobe malfunctions to family crises; plus they always know exactly when to whisk you away for a girls' trip when life gets stressful. Shauna also shares some great tips on how to make time to gather with your girlfriends around the table, and some delicious (and easy) recipes for those "food for your soul" moments.