Inclusivity Included: Powerful personal stories

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In this podcast, our hosts Elizabeth Brandon and Charletta Dawson explore the motivations and origins behind the creation of The HistoryMakers, a non-profit organization with the largest archive of first-person oral histories of renowned and unsung African Americans. Learn how Julieanna Richardson’s discovery of the accomplishments of a black artist helped her find her identity and inspired her to create The HistoryMakers.

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Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith Podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, Inclusivity Included.

Charletta: Hello and welcome to Reed Smith's Inclusivity Included. We are celebrating Black History Month, and my name is Charletta Dawson. In a recent interview, Dr. George C. Fraser shared that for Americans in America, Black excellence is the base, but exceptionalism should be the goal. And with us today is one exceptional individual, and that is Ms. Julieanna Richardson. She is the founder and driving force behind the HistoryMakers. Ms. Julieanna, welcome, and we are so pleased to have you with us today. I'm just very excited to get into this podcast and hear all this great information that you have to share with us today.

Elizabeth: And my name is Elizabeth Brandon. I am a partner at Reed Smith the Dallas office. I practice litigation. And I'm excited today to be kind of primarily leading this interview with Julieanna. Thank you, Charletta. And Julieanna, let's just dive right in. And first, can you just tell the audience a little bit about what exactly is HistoryMakers?

Julieanna: So The HistoryMakers has grown to be the nation's largest African-American video oral history archive. We actually turned 25 years old this year, this month. This month, in the year 2000, we started doing our interviews, and we've grown to over 3,800 interviews of African-American leaders in 451 cities and towns across the United States. We've actually traveled internationally. The importance of the collection, though, which is housed at the Library of Congress, is that there's only been one time in the history of the United States that there's been a massive attempt to record the Black experience through the first voice, and that was 1900s, our enslaved experience. There had been no attempt to do that until we came along. And so it was very important for us that we were able to interview people who have enslaved ancestors. And while we always are wanting to do younger people, the majority of the people that we've interviewed historically have been 70 and above. But it's really needed. In many ways, the project is about identity, identity of a people, identity of a country. And the other part is I really believe that you can't have a melting pot unless you have all the parts, all the ingredients to make soup or a cake. You've got to have all those ingredients. And so we see ourselves as a very important ingredient of the American experience.

Elizabeth: Well, I mean, that is just fabulous and, frankly, inspiring to hear those words. And before we kind of delve in and unpack some of the things you just told us, I kind of want to delve a little bit behind you, Julieanna, and your background. Can you tell us what inspired you to even undertake this whole journey?

Julieanna: Well, you know, it's interesting that I'm presenting at a law firm because I'm a lawyer by training. I started my career as a graduate of Harvard Law School in the banking and corporate department of Jenner & Block in Chicago. But the project itself really starts when I'm nine years old. And I'm living in a town called Newark, Ohio, which is about 35 miles southeast Columbus, Ohio. And I was the only black kid in my class because we had 1,000 blacks out of 50,000 whites in my town. And the only two things we studied about black people, I should also say, was George Washington Carver. My white teacher was very animated about George Washington Carver and said he could do all these things with peanuts. And then there were the pictures of the enslaved, and they are hunched over. So my nine-year-old brain that wasn't computing? How could one person have done all these things, all these things, when all we have been were slaves? And then that same teacher asked us to talk about our family background. So you know how nine years old, you're excited. So everybody's hands are raising up. I'm part German, I'm part Italian, I'm part French. And I'm literally sort of cowering over the corner because I don't know exactly how to answer. And this is before James Brown, I'm Black and I'm proud. And so I say maybe Negro or colored. And then I threw a Native American because most Black people think they have Native American in them. And then I added in French because I wanted to be sexy like the other kids. I wanted to have an identity. Now, I don't know about Haiti or Cote de Blanc or about those at all. That's way beyond my concept. But I'm sitting there. And I know, and I've been told not to lie, you know, you don't lie, but I'm lying. And my teacher looks at me with a little raised brow and I felt like a fraud. Never told my parents.

Elizabeth: How did it feel at nine years old, sitting in that classroom and kind of just both receiving all the only information historically that you're learning about people that look like you is that they were slaves? And how did you feel about basically having to lie about what you felt your background was?

Julieanna: I didn't feel good and I never told my parents about it, but maybe it's better to talk about how I felt when I found out I had history. I'm in my sophomore year at Brandeis University, and I'm American Studies and Theater Arts major because my father wanted me to go to law school, but my dream was theater. And so I'm doing research on a project called the Harlem Renaissance, which is a period in the 1920s in our country, in New York and Harlem, where there's a cultural renaissance. Alice Childress wrote to me, the writer Alice Childress wrote to me and said, renaissance, that means a rebirth. They were poor, they died poor, they were poor. But there's this period called the Harlem Renaissance. And so I went to study it. And there was a famous librarian in New York, Schaumburg's Library, named Jean Blackwell Hudson. I've actually, my letter I wrote to her telling her.

Elizabeth: Wow. Wow.

Julieanna: And asking her to identify people in the Harlem Renaissance that I could talk to. So one day I'm in the library and I've got my headphones on and it's like a gray day. It's a fall day and the leaves are brown and orange. And I'm looking out from the library at the trees and I have my headphones on. I'm listening to I'm Just Wild About Harry. And this song that I know, I thought it was about Harry Truman. This song that I know I find in that black library. Was written by a Black songwriting team of Noble Sissle and Eubie Blake in the 1921 production of Shuffle Along on Broadway. And you talking about like wanting to like, almost like I was shot out of a cannon, I was overjoyed because I had found my identity. And I had found Black people had done And not just that, lots and lots of things.

Elizabeth: So you said something very interesting when you started talking about this. You started this by saying you were going to talk about how you felt when you discovered you had a history. Could you kind of tell us what it means to have that feeling that you had a history? And this is something you discovered, I guess, in college. So you were 18, 19 years old.

Julieanna: Yeah. I get chills just now thinking about how I felt. I don't think people understand the importance of identity and identity formation. And feeling, you know, people talk about feeling other. But I don't think because, you know, people, when you have a sense of legacy and where you came from, and that's what those kids could talk about that day. You know, they all knew it or they seemed to know it. They knew more than I did. I didn't know anything. And so here I was, and I found my own identity, and I'm with my tape recorder, and I'm doing research, and I'm interviewing Lee Whipper, who was born in 18—he was born in 1870. And he—I go to interview him, and he says that he had moved to New York in 1900. And I go, wow, because I'm like 18, 19 years old. And he just will be old as Methuselah. I don't know what concept, you know. And so my interviewing skills have improved since then. But I'm researched. I am researched and I'm serious because he actually gave me front row tickets to see Josephine Baker, who was a noted artist

Elizabeth: Oh, my goodness.

Julieanna: Who moved, and my family had spent time at her castle that she had in France. And so he's telling me he has these tickets, and I have an existential crisis. I'm there to do my interviews, or do I go see Josephine Baker? And I opted to sit and interview with him. And one interview led to the other. I interviewed Butterfly McQueen, who had starred in Gone with the Wind, and that little voice that she had it was a real voice and she was working up in Harlem in impoverished conditions though when she had started gone with the wind that she had made five thousand dollars a week but she had also been typecast as a silly you know, But she wasn't like that, but she still had that voice. And so that was lovely. I interviewed tap dancer Honi Coles. I interviewed John Henrik Clark, historian. And just one interview led to the other. And there was no question at that point. It sort of like lit a fire in me. And I went on to finish. And I ended up going to Harvard Law School. And then I was thinking I could represent artists if I couldn't be an artist. And it was really hard in those days to be hired if you were a Black person at an entertainment firm.

Elizabeth: So when you graduated from Harvard Law School, you decided to go into private practice. Was that difficult to get hired in that capacity?

Julieanna: Yes, it was difficult. My, oh, they don't like me to say it, but I was the first Black, but it's the truth.

Elizabeth: First Black, in the corporate?

Julieanna: Black in the corporate department. And Jenner is mainly a litigation firm. But at that point in time, I asked them, because they had only had one woman, you know, how was it going to be? And was I going to be given work like the others? And they said they would have to screen clients because some of the clients wouldn't want to deal with me. Because there weren't Blacks incorporated. So I took that as the reality. That didn't actually, wasn't really the reality. In fact, I went out and got my first year, my own little newspaper client who wasn't Black either, a distributor, and so I was representing him. And I really, you know, I have, I'm very happy that my father had me go to law school because I would not have been able to do the project that I'm doing right now.

Elizabeth: I want to connect to the project you're doing now, but I, and since this is, you know, we're at Reed Smith, it would be remiss in not delving into what, how did you feel when you were being told, look, we're going to have to screen our clients to work with you? And did that impact how you were going to be, I guess, you know, functioning as a lawyer?

Julieanna: No, that didn't really. I mean, you have to understand that law was my father's dream, not my dream, though I'm very happy that I have the legal training. And that didn't affect me, but it did when he said it, because I responded, I'm okay with that as long as I'm not put in a corner. And I found I was put in the proverbial corner. I was not being given the same work as my white male counterparts. And when I found it, I went ballistic on this because my thing was, I'm here to work, but you have to give me the work and you have to give me the same experience. And so in another instance, if that had been my dream, that may have been problematic. But it had never been my dream. I think sometimes, you know, what would have been my trajectory had I stayed there? Because at that point, there had not been someone come through the ranks to go and make partner at the firm. They sent subsequently, just a few years after me, the first Black partner to come through the ranks was a man named Gerald DePriest who was technically in my same class, but it took him two more years.

Elizabeth: So how long did you stay in practice before you decided, look, law is not my dream. I've got to go pursue my project.

Julieanna: Not that long. So two years. And then I, you know, law firms were different back there because they were genteel places, actually, back then. And so I went and gave my resignation, and then I had gotten hired as the assistant cable administrator for the city. And then by 30, I was the cable administrator for the city. When the cable companies were franchising, that seems like old days now with the advent of cable. But I'll tell you this and why I'm so really gung-ho about legal training. For the same reasons that my father had told me. I believe that legal training teaches you how to really think. And I became a very good writer and a very good. I was drafting contracts. And all of that knowledge, that and my experience in an organization called Lawyers of the Creative Arts, where we were incorporating our Chicago's sort of nonprofit community. And advising people on things like trademark and copyright. All of those things were extremely important to me as I started. And I really think it's a way of thinking that that is very, very important in what I would call the ecosystem of life. So I'm very pro-pro legal training and getting actually a law degree.

Elizabeth: How did that legal training help you as you then focused your efforts on what is now grown to be the HistoryMakers?

Julieanna: I'm going to answer that question, but I need to tell you just a quick trajectory between law schools. So I went into the city and I did my city work and became cable administrator for the city, which was regulatory. And I found that very interesting from not only starting something up, but the nature of the cable industry and all the things around policy and how you form policy. But then I then started, and this is the, so politics had me out. And I was doing a little consulting, but no one was hiring anyone with a cable background. And I started a home shopping channel, a regional home shopping channel, which it doesn't matter where I'm presenting. I saw the brakes just go off in your head every place I go, especially in academic circles. You start hearing screech, you know, up there like it's like, where did that come from? Out of nowhere. But that's really important because all roads have led to where I'm doing right now. But I raised the million dollars and started one of two regionally based home shopping channels when it was called Shop Chicago. There was another family group in New Orleans that had started. But that went belly up after five years, but I raised money. And so how I'm starting the HistoryMakers is in that period of not knowing. Now, you can't say that I was a person who always had a five-year plan. And I was a little more organic than that. I was with this five-year plan. But I see my life as these very intense moments. I can get very intensely engaged. And so I'm without a job. I'm pretty angry, actually. And I have no idea what I'm going to be doing. And no one's going to hire me as a lawyer. And I went to Memphis. It was the year that Clarence Thomas had gotten appointed to the Supreme Court. And I was at the National Bar Association Conference, and Judge Leon Higginbotham, who I love and adore, was speaking. And in that, and I'd been really confused about what I was going to do next, confused, disoriented. And I tell people that sometimes at your lowest point, what you're intended to do comes. And that's how the HistoryMaker came to me. So I'm sitting there and I'm listening to Judge Constance Baker Motley and Reverend Billy Kyles. And they were talking about Martin Luther King, and I was like, people don't know their names, but they were very significant in the movement. Reverend Billy Kyles was on the balcony when Martin Luther King died that day. He's one sort of pointing. Is he the one pointing the finger? He may be. And so the name came to me, because I've got this creative thing. The name of the HistoryMakers came to me, and I should, in my indecision, one of my friends was general counsel of our local PBS station. She's since become general counsel of a national PBS. And she had been indexing tasks under the legal department to inventory their tapes, their archives. And so I come running. So the name comes to me, the HistoryMaker. So I come running back to Chicago because I've been totally, I was doing one thing in the morning, one thing at night, total indecision. And I come running back to her and I say, Katherine, I know what I want to do. It's called the HistoryMakers, and it's an archive of Black people. And instead of her being like, she goes, that doesn't make any sense. And so some friends of mine, she included, did an intervention on a Saturday. And I have to give them credit because they probably thought I had lost my mind completely. But they asked me, I explained, I'm sitting there with my boards and, you know, easel, And I'm explaining to them, because I've been doing a lot of research on the internet, and I'm explaining what I want to do. And they said at the end that I needed to answer two questions. One, did an archive like the one I was envisioning, did it exist already? And they said that if it didn't exist, then I needed to answer the second question, would anyone be interested? They said they theorized, no, but those were the two questions. And I took it as like a dog with a bone. I went out, those were the two questions I was asking. And so there is probably not an archive in the United States around Black experience that I don't know. I was writing to TV stations. I was writing to sororities. I was writing to African-American organizations. I was writing to anyone who would talk to me. And that's where I'm seeing my legal degree came in very handy. I knew how to already incorporate as a nonprofit. So I knew those things, how to set up the structure. The other very, very, very important thing about our collection is everyone has to sign a release form because we would not own the collection in the way that we owned it. Our collection is very clean, very, very clean.

Elizabeth: And what does that mean when you say clean?

Julieanna: It was really important to me that we not be hampered and not be able to use the material. And then as technology changed, because I wanted to take, it was very important that the interviews be videotaped. I have no problem with audio cassette and audio interviews, but I wanted to see what people, I didn't want to have to imagine what people looked like.

Elizabeth: And let me ask you about that, because one of the very first things you said today was that the HistoryMakers is the largest oral archive of the Black Lives Matter.

Julieanna: Video, video, oral. Video and oral history.

Elizabeth: Why was it important to structure this as a video and oral archive as opposed to, let's say, in written form?

Julieanna: Because you get to hear people tell their own stories, and you get to see them talking about their own lives. And that was very important, that first-person testimony. Now, when we're starting, there's no money. There's no money for oral history interviews. That money that was there in the 70s had all dried up. And we are not accepted in the academy. When I mean the academy higher education, we are not accepted at all. So here I have this envisioning. I also had, from my home shopping days, I knew how to do a business plan, but I didn't know anything about archives, education. I didn't know any media. I didn't know anything about anything I was supposed to be able to mount, nothing. And so I had a University of Chicago business school graduate who went with me on that part of the journey. And so we were at that point, this is during the dot-com era. So there was money flowing all over, but she came back one day and she goes, you've got to be a nonprofit because there is no ROI because we figured it was going to take $36 million. And that's really what I took seriously that it was going to take. I would have to raise $36 million. And so I was very serious about it. We've raised $36 million as I speak to you. The collection is, archives are really expensive. Each interview costs us about $6,000. But I often tell people what value do you put on something whose ultimate value is priceless. It can't be replicated.

Elizabeth: Who was the first interviewee for your archive?

Julieanna: The first interviewee is sort of interesting. His name is Barry Mayo and he had been very prominent in the world of urban radio that was our first interviewee and I started to learn you know we were in those early years we're trying to develop our process you know we have I had been out to the Shoah Foundation which is Steven Spielberg's project and they have been really secretive but they finally had me come out and they had done 52,000 interviews in five years. So I decided, oh, we can't do 52,000. Where’s that money coming from? So I set 5,000 as a goal because that was double the number of slave narratives. And I figured that was doable. And we were going to do. All across the Black community, whether it was law or business or music or entertainment or STEM or medicine. And it's clear in my original concept paper that I really don't know anything about STEM because I have Dr. Joycelyn Elders, who's a noted medical person from STEM. And that shows you, because we actually, in 2009, were awarded a $2.3 million grant from the National Science Foundation. And we have the largest recording of blacks in STEM. And that was just a magical period in the history of our project. But so in the early years, we were focused on Negro Baseball League players, Pullman Porters and Tuskegee Airmen. Pullman Porters had almost died. The Tuskegee Airmen, I'll tell you a story about that, and the Negro baseball players. One day, I was going to interview in the early years, and we were trying to do well-known and unsung, and we're going to interview Colonel Thompson, Bill Thompson, and he was a Tuskegee Airman. And I'm questioning myself, why am I interviewing Colonel Thompson? I got to do the Oprah Winfrey's. I got to do bigger names. So when we got there, he had been preparing for us for four days. And he was the chief documentarian for the Tuskegee Airmen. Lots of his things are in the Air and Space Museum of the Smithsonian. And he sits me down and he says, have you heard of the Golden 13? And I said, no, Colonel Thompson, I've never heard of the Golden 13. And he said, well, they were the Navy's version of the Tuskegee Airmen. And there are four left living in this country and one lives upstairs.

Elizabeth: Wow.

Julieanna: And he’d like to speak to you all. So that is the moment that I knew the process was, it was all about discovery.

Elizabeth: Julieanna, I think you may know that I think the last living Tuskegee airman recently passed. So the HistoryMakers was able to capture some of these stories that would otherwise have been lost forever.

Julieanna: That's right.

Elizabeth: All right. So we have a few minutes left. And if we jump to now present day, there are over 3,800 or so interviews. How do you select people to continue interviewing and to be considered for the database?

Julieanna: So people can nominate people on our website, which is www.thehistorymakers.org. We have now 16, a committee for each group, and they've been very helpful in helping us vet and prioritize. We rely on our committees a great deal, but, you know, all history is local in a lot of ways, and we've had people identified to us like, early in the project, we had the, you know, if you see a black tap dancer in any of the old black and white films, she identified herself to was, and her things are in the Smithsonian. So this is a group project. The community has to be helpful to us in that way. We're in the legal area, and I would say that we have the largest reporting of Black lawyers.

Elizabeth: Wow. Yeah.

Julieanna: Us, and then there's, well, our collection is much larger than his, David Wilkins out of Harvard Law School had done recordings, but between the two of us, I think he may get 100, but we have over 400 lawyers that have been interviewed. And you start to see, and I'll just leave you with this, and I've maybe asked the question, when is the first Black lawyer in the history of the United States? What year is he?

Elizabeth: Now you're putting me on the spot. I'd have to say that was 1932.

Julieanna: So the first Black lawyer in the United States is 1816. His name is Moses Simons. He is mixed race. He goes to the first law school. He goes to the Yale undergrad. And then Litchfield Law School, which was the first law school in the United States, also in Connecticut. He has a practice in New York, and then he goes to a ball dance, and someone calls him out of his name, and he gets in a fight, and he loses his law license. So his legal career lasted from 1816 to 1816.

Charletta: So did he get into Yale by passing?

Julieanna: No.

Charletta: Okay.

Julieanna: No. Well, we don't know that, actually. You know, I say no, but it was clear. I mean, he did get into this fight, and it was because some people tried to come to his defense, but he lost his law license. But I want to say we don't know a lot about ourselves. And I think really knowing, and why I'm so committed to this work, is knowing will change the trajectory of how the Black experience and its contributions are seen and known because there's a tremendous amount that Black people have contributed to this nation.

Charletta: Yes.

Julieanna: And it's not yet, no. And that's the whole essence of our work.

Elizabeth: Well, thank you, Julieanna. The database is vast. I do want to give you an opportunity to give the website again so that folks can, you know, go on the site and, you know, nominate or identify individuals. I already know several individuals that I'd like to nominate. And by the way, who is conducting, are you the one conducting all the interviews?

Julieanna: No, no, no, that's not possible.

Elizabeth: Okay, I figured it couldn’t have been.

Julieanna: You know, I've probably now done about 600 over a 25-year period.

Elizabeth: Great.

Julieanna: But let me just say the site, once again, is www.thehistorymakers.org. Our digital archive, which is not publicly available, was developed in collaboration with Carnegie Mellon, this major research on tech institution that has worked with us for 20-something years. And they have created this wonderful tool. We're now in 205 colleges and universities and public libraries across the United States. We just picked up D.C. Public Library, San Francisco, Dayton. Marin County, and we're in Chicago, New York, LA. And they're just really wonderful innovation coming out of the places that we're having here.

Charletta: But Ms. Julieanna, let me say, you made a very profound statement in your 60 Minutes interview where you were talking about the untold Black stories that they have to be told, because without them, American history would be incomplete.

Julieanna: That's right.

Charletta: And that was very profound. I was like, yes, we are so intertwined into the American history story. You cannot have one without the other.

Julieanna: No, you cannot have one without the other. Because I really think that archives are really important because they determine value. Because you don't throw what away but has value preserve it and so preservation is, and keeping things are critical to who has value and who doesn't have in society. And so I'm just hoping that you as the Reed Smith community will get involved with us, not only as users of the content. Some people have used it to give speeches and introduce people. Kids are using it for reports. We have a school in North Carolina that's using it to teach vocabulary and context. So there are all kinds of uses for it. But I also hope that you as a community will also get involved with us. We love working out of law firms. We would love to be able to do interviews out of your facilities, if that were ever possible. But we just are pleased that you've stepped forward. And I want to say another thing about A. Scott Bolden, who is one of your partners. And he, you know, was very, we met through an organization called The Community and the Family that was Black leaders. And they adopted us. And that's how I first got to know A. Scott Bolden. But we're just pleased that this is happening. I'm pleased that you're drawing attention to our work during Black History Month. And I hope that this is just the beginning.

Elizabeth: Thank you, Julieanna. And now before we close, I want to ask you one question, okay? I want you to take yourself back in time to that nine-year-old girl in class, and I'm your teacher asking you to tell us about your history, your background. What would you say today if you had to answer that question?

Julieanna: Oh, that's a wonderful question. I would say that, I'm the descendants of slaves, and they were really amazing because they made that their way through the Middle Passage. And that if I could have the strength that they exhibited, or if anyone could have the strength that they exhibit, and that I'm really proud to be their progeny.

Elizabeth: Thank you, Julieanna. We appreciate your candor and telling us all about the HistoryMakers.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts.

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.

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In this episode of Inclusivity Included, host Bareeq Barqawi speaks with Foley Hoag partner Arsalan Suleman and Reed Smith’s Rizzy Qureshi and Wardah Bari about their experiences as Muslim attorneys. This conversation explores the unique journeys, challenges, and triumphs of Muslim professionals in the legal field. Our panelists share personal stories about navigating identity in the workplace, addressing misconceptions about Islam, and fostering a culture of inclusion. Whether you're a legal professional or an ally, this episode offers valuable insights on how we can all contribute to a more equitable and supportive environment.

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Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith Podcast, Inclusivity Included, Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, Inclusivity Included.

Bareeq: Hello and welcome to this special episode of Inclusivity Included, Reed Smith's DEI podcast. I'm your host, Barik Barkawi, and today we're excited to feature an incredible panel brought to you by the Muslim Inclusion Committee, one of our business inclusion groups here at Reed Smith. This episode highlights the experiences, challenges, and successes of Muslims in the legal profession. Joining us today are three distinguished guests, Arsalan Suleman, a partner at Foley Hoag, an international litigation and arbitration practice, and a former senior diplomat and policymaker at the U.S. Department of State. Rizzy Qureshi, a partner at Reed Smith in Global Regulatory Enforcement and a member of our Executive Committee. Wardah Bari, an Associate Attorney in Global Commercial Disputes at Reed Smith. Hi, everybody. Thank you for joining today.

Arsalan: Thanks for having us.

Bareeq: All right, so let's dive right in. To start, I'd love to hear a little bit about each of your journeys to becoming lawyers. What inspired you to pursue a career in the legal field? I will start with you, Arsalan.

Arsalan: Great, thank you. Yeah, I guess for me, I sort of started thinking about going into a legal path seriously all the way back in high school when I started getting into high school policy debate. I sort of had the expected path of a South Asian son of two doctors. And so growing up, I assumed that I was going to be a doctor. But when I got kind of pretty far into heavily into policy debate in high school, I kind of realized that I was more interested in issues related to law and policy, especially foreign policy. And so the legal sort of option became much more serious for me around that time. And so going into college, I kind of had that as sort of a big general motivation and kind of experiences in college kind of reinforced that. So yeah, that was kind of my sort of tilt towards the law.

Bareeq: Love that. So you've got to find your calling pretty early in life. That's fantastic. What about you, Rizzy?

Rizzy: You know, my upbringing is not very different than Arsalan's or Wardah’s. I'm actually growing up in a Pakistani household. I'm a failure because I didn't go to medical school. But, you know, for me growing up, my dad was a veterinarian. His dream was to attend medical school. So I was very much pushed towards medicine and sciences. But unfortunately, that didn't jive with my skill set and my passion. And it became evident pretty early on when, as a young person, as a child of first-generation Americans who needed me to just be involved in things that ordinary 12-year-olds wouldn't need to be involved in, which is participate in the closing of our very first home and sort of reading documents and providing analysis, which I had no business doing. But it just is the way I grew up in advocating in my community in North Philadelphia, as well as in my Muslim community. And, you know, it became evident early on that advocacy was where I was best positioned with my skill set. And then ultimately, you know, dropping AP Bio is probably a pretty monumental moment of my life because my dad needed to have a sit down with everybody at the whole school district. But fast forward 40 plus years, my parents are very proud of me. And I've succeeded in an area where I think I can provide the most value to my community, which I think is critical to me as a person and how my parents ultimately raised me. I love that.

Bareeq: I love that you highlighted advocacy. I found that doing these episodes, a lot of immigrant households or first-generation families, advocacy seems to be a really big theme in growing up in American society and kind of advocating for your family and extended community. So that's fantastic. Wardah, what about you?

Wardah: Yeah, I think very similar family upbringing. I also come from a Pakistani Muslim family, first generation, and we grew up in a really small town. It was a very small, white, homogenous town. We were the only Muslim kids in our school. And so watching my parents navigate as immigrants living in a new society. Trying to integrate, trying to learn how to navigate these systems, it wasn't always easy. But I think a really big moment for me was after 9-11, which I think, Like a lot of Muslims can relate to this. There was a lot of Islamophobia in my town that everyone in my family faced since we were, you know, the only Muslim kids. People would say things about me, my family. They would come up to us at the grocery store and like harass my mom. Teachers would say really Islamophobic things. And so, you know, as a student, as a, you know, like a young student, that really makes an impression on you and my classmates. So watching my family go through these things, I would always try to speak up about these injustices. But my parents as immigrants were very much like, you know, we put our heads down. We just work hard. You know, we don't make commotion. We're just second class citizens. We need to try to fit in. But over time, watching my family go through all of this and as well as other communities, you know, immigrant communities, religious groups, minorities face different injustices that made me really want to go to law school because, well, one, we have enough doctors. And although that was also a big pressure for me too. But I thought that having a law degree would really help me not only understand the law and legal processes, you know, which were not really designed for people like us, but it also helps equips you with the tools to navigate these systems and really understand how our society works and advocate for people that always can't advocate for themselves.

Bareeq: You know, you bring up a really great point, which is when you mentioned 9-11 and how pivotal that was to your entry into the legal profession. And I find that with majority Muslims, I too am Muslim, and there's life before 9-11 and there's life after 9-11 when it comes to living in America. So at least for us in terms of what we've experienced and the heightened Islamophobia, I would love to hear about what other pivotal moments or were there any other pivotal moments in your careers that shaped the path that you're on today? And actually, I'll send it over to you, Rizzy.

Rizzy: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, for me, I kind of look at it two ways. You're absolutely right. 9-11 was a monumental moment, and it impacted everybody, in particular, the Muslim American community. So that stands out in my mind. But, you know, breaking into big law as a first year associate in Manhattan and just being different and and being in the “minority,” not only with how I identify, but also how I may behave or the things I'm doing during Ramadan, for example. You know, always not always, but was oftentimes a natural tension with what I quote was supposed to be. doing at the law firm that evening. So I actually look back a lot to those early days in my career where frankly, and I'm being completely honest, where I think I compromised what I knew in my core to be my priorities for the benefit of doing what I thought was necessary to succeed in the law firm environment. And that was 18, 20 years ago when I started practicing law. And I'm happy to report that so much has changed and I've been re-invited to and returned to my core, but those are some pivotal moments because I think back sometimes at that time of my career, I have some regret that I wasn't more, I'll call it outwardly Muslim and outwardly different so that my presence could be, I mean, I'm not an inspiring person, but an inspiration or something for people from my community, but I learned from it. And I learned for why sometimes survival requires one to at least not. Human nature requires you to behave sometimes in ways that maybe you don't think you're going to behave. And I'm not suggesting that, you know, if my mom listens to this podcast, she will, mom, I wasn't eating pork all the time or, you know, doing crazy things. But I think from her perspective, by the way, but I think it really does put into focus how much, how far we've come as a legal industry, as a community, as a country. But, you know, current events would tell you that, are we going a step backward? And, you know, that remains to be seen, but that's what gives me both concern and also reinforces me the importance of being out there, being present in leadership in this global law firm to ensure people know that I'm here and I am different and that I'm here to support them.

Bareeq: You know, I will beg to differ on one thing, Rizzy, which is that you're not an inspiration because I don't think that's true. You know, I think you talk about compromise and sacrifice, you know, 18 years ago and when you were starting your career and things. But now, for example, like you being a member of the executive committee as a Muslim, I think paves the path for other Muslims to say like, hey, that could be me one day. And I do think representation matters in that regard. So I do find that, you know, I know you're trying to like be humble about it, but I do believe that that's going to be, you know, a huge factor in younger Muslim attorneys thinking that they can one day achieve something like that. So I do think that's really inspiring. Arsalan, what about you? What pivotal moments in your career have shaped the path you're on?

Arsalan: Yeah, I just want to agree with you, Bareeq. I find Rizzy’s service both in government and now his work in the private sector to be inspiring, and I'm sure it is inspiring for a lot of younger lawyers, Muslim or not. I mean, for me, I think a couple of pivotal moments. So yeah, I mean, I was in, I was a college junior when 9-11 happened. So I think that definitely changed the landscape domestically, internationally for Americans in general, but especially I think Muslim Americans. So that definitely sharpened my interest in pursuing a legal career. Both in terms of working on issues related to civil rights and human rights, but also on government policy issues. The other pivotal moments, I think, are actually sort of political moments, elections that kind of shaped the stages of sort of my career path. So the first was President Obama's election in 2008, because a couple years after, well, in 2010, I joined the State Department. And that wouldn't have happened absent him being elected, probably. And that sort of started a phase of my career where I was working in government in the State Department, working on issues of foreign policy and human rights, not directly kind of practicing law, but using some of my legal background and skills to advance foreign policy priorities related to deepening and expanding U.S. Relations with Muslim-majority countries and communities, and also working on issues related to human rights in the UN system. And then the next sort of pivotal moment, I think, was the first Trump election, the 2016 presidential election. Because when I was in the Obama administration, I was a political appointee. And when administrations transition, of course, political appointees usually leave. And so, That's when I left the State Department and had to figure out what I was going to do with my life, whether I was going to go back to being a lawyer, which was what I was doing before the State Department, or if I was going to end up doing something else. And very happily, I ended up finding a home at Foley Hoag and have integrated into our international litigation and arbitration practice and have gotten the opportunity to represent foreign states in a number of really interesting international disputes. So I'm very pleased at the way that that transition ended up because there were a lot of moments when I wasn't sure what was going to happen and, you know, what I was going to end up doing. But thankfully, I think it worked out in a really good way overall.

Bareeq: Yeah. And sounds like you were able to kind of melt the two worlds together, which sounds really great. So actually, we're going to transition to some challenges and how to navigate them as Muslims in the legal profession. What challenges have you faced and how have you navigated through them? Maybe like a specific story or example that comes to mind in your day-to-day practice that you'd want to share. And actually, I'm going to go to Rizzy.

Rizzy: Wow, that's a tough one because there's so many. You know, I think for me, the biggest challenge always has been, you know, I'm not a Harvard graduate. I went to Howard and I have a real chip on my shoulder about that. I'm very proud of it. But as Wardah and Arsalan will appreciate, when my immigrant uncles would misunderstand me and think I went to Harvard and not Howard, there was a time in my life where I wouldn't correct them. But now I very much actively correct them. And, you know, sort of being someone who's not supposed to be in the room is something that initially I feared. But now I frankly thrive on. And it's, I think, paid dividends in my career and how I represent my clients. Because even to this day, as somebody who spent as much time as I did at the Department of Justice, when I'm on the other side of the table with DOJ and SEC lawyers, I still look a lot different than a lot of them do and have a very different life experience. But I think in terms of just a specific example is when serving as a prosecutor, there were instances where I came across investigations or matters on my desk that, frankly did not jive with my. Morals, my ethics, or were not the type of dispositions that I believe were going to attain the justice that we needed on behalf of the victim in that situation or the community, and also to hold the individual accountable. It took some time to work through that and get the courage to express a position that was in the minority on, hey, maybe this person doesn't need to be indicted in the manner that we are proposing supervisor which will result in more harm than good and this is a young person who has potential and we can think of a more. Creative disposition where we hold them accountable for their bad conduct but at the same time put them on a track where they have the potential of doing something good with their life and And as for those of us, and I think all of us who have experience here in the D.C. Metro area, that's a tough balance. And it's often a tough balance to articulate to U.S. Attorneys who are political appointees whose obligation is to keep the streets safe. So I interestingly very early on in my career found myself in the U.S. Attorney's office more often than not and you know it's no different than being in the principal's office but I'm so thankful that I took that approach because as a result of me doing that on a couple cases which at the time were insignificant cases and I'm using air quotes and you can't see me because they might have been gun possession cases and not thank God a shooting where somebody was seriously injured or hurt. But it put into focus and it put into practice, at least in my team at the U.S. Attorney's Office, where people felt more comfortable to look at cases and look at facts and look at criminal dispositions with a different lens. And I'm happy to report, you know, I came in under President Obama and Eric Holder, and I left under the first Trump administration. So things had changed. But the first Trump U.S. attorney in D.C. was great. Her name is Jessie Liu, the first Asian American U.S. attorney in D.C. I'm not sure what's going to happen now with where we are today and what's going on with the leadership in an office. But I think that was one of the most difficult things I've dealt with because I had to, similarly in my prior conversation. Had to battle my own survival and promotion within an office and a department that I cared about while at the same time staying true to what I felt was the right thing to do.

Bareeq: That's a great story. And I can see where, you know, there would be challenges along the path to, like, upward career progression, but also staying true to your beliefs. Wardah, I'm going to pose a similar question to you. Have you ever felt like your values or beliefs were in tension within the workplace environment? And if so, how did you navigate those situations?

Wardah: Yeah, so I think there, so I'm, I'm a very, uh, a junior lawyer. I, I, I'm like a third year now. And so I'm still kind of figuring out how my values and my beliefs play into my profession and how it's shaping my career. So, you know, it's very heartening to hear about Rizzi and Arsalan’s experiences. And, you know, I can resonate with a lot of, especially the challenges they face early on in their careers. For me, I'm still trying to figure out how to have these conversations with my colleagues, with my partners, seniors that I work with. And representation is a really big challenge. Being in a courtroom in a meeting or in an office and looking around and realizing I'm the only Muslim or only Pakistani and sometimes even the only woman, it's sometimes difficult for me to speak up and represent. You know, see that there's not representation and then try to advocate for myself and for people with different experiences and backgrounds. But for me, these challenges come across in like small ways as well, like figuring out when to take time off or figuring out how to navigate, you know, fasting during Ramadan or celebrating Eid and things like that. So like this past year, I was visiting my family during Thanksgiving. And when we're all together, we usually go to the mosque for Friday prayers, which is like an hour on Friday afternoons. And I got an email from a partner I work with, and he was asking if I could help with something that was kind of urgent. And so I started panicking and was like, oh, no, I have to tell my parents I can't go. I'm going to have to stay back home. And then I just like got to thinking about it. And I was like, I only see my parents a couple of times a year. And, you know, it's really special for them and important for them that we do this together and attend Friday prayers. And so I emailed my partner and was like, hey, I'm so sorry. I'm going to step out for like an hour or so. But as soon as I come back, I can help with this assignment. And to my surprise, he responded saying Jum'a Mubarak, which is, you know, like the greeting you give on Fridays. And he wrote it in Arabic. and I thought it was so sweet I kind of started tearing up when I saw that and it was kind of the first time where I was like no there is a place for me here there's a place for me at this firm there's a place for me in this profession and there are ways to you know keep up with our religious traditions and values and still you know succeed at our work and and there's a way to figure it all out and you just kind of have to speak up and ask for ask for and like advocate for yourself sometimes.

Bareeq: I love that story. And that's so heartwarming to hear, especially when you find, you know, inclusive leaders like that in this environment, too. And piggybacking off of that, Arsalan, so my next question is, what are some common misconceptions that we found, that you found about Islam that you've encountered in the workplace or even among clients? And how do you approach dispelling them while also maintaining professionalism?

Arsalan: Yeah, that's a good question, Bareeq. I mean, what's interesting is that, you know, in my practice now at Foley, a number of my clients are actually Muslim majority states. So I represent Qatar in various matters, the Gambia in various matters. These are countries that are Muslim-majority states, and so my identity as a Muslim and my understanding of Islam is actually sort of a positive in being able to relate to maybe issues that our client is facing or that the officials that I'm engaging with are sort of thinking about, right, like whether it's a Friday or whether there's Ramadan coming up or other holidays. But in terms of misconceptions, I think that question generally kind of brings me back to that time in the State Department when, you know, especially kind of in that post 9-11, post Iraq war time in the Obama administration, there was a big effort to get the U.S. Out of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And as part of that effort, in particular in Iraq, there was sort of the rise of ISIS. And I think around that time, and kind of consistently going back before then and afterwards, there are these just common tropes about Islam and Muslims in terms of Islam and violence or Islam and terrorism or Islam and the treatment of women or Islam and human rights. And so those would constantly come up in terms of how to, you know, properly understand a situation or how to properly, you know, understand the motivation of certain groups that claim to be invoking Islam as some sort of justification for their actions, but in reality, you know, have nothing to do with the actual teachings of Islam when you get down to it. And so I found that to be a big challenge because there were, especially with the rise of ISIS, there was kind of this understanding or this sort of idea out there that, you know, ISIS is like really, you know, leaning into certain interpretations of Islam. And it just created a lot of, I think, really problematic assumptions and understandings amongst policymakers and other folks that, again, just kind of leaned into these really, you know, problematic tropes about Islam and Muslims. And so, I mean, when you serve in government, there's often sort of an, especially in the sort of diplomatic space, there's often sort of an internal and an external kind of dynamic. Like internally, you're working on how you can influence policy, how you can best inform the policymakers and, you know, ensure that where we end up on policy is kind of in the best place or where it should be or as well informed as it can be. And then once the policy is kind of set or made, then you have the external side where you're sort of interacting with interlocutors and trying to explain or present you as policy. And. In terms of the internal side of that dynamic, you know, me and other colleagues who are sort of working together in our offices or in this space would often try to, you know, bring to the table our expertise and our backgrounds to help, you know, better inform these conversations and help better sort of present sort of the situation as it is. And as it's being perceived by, you know, various kind of partners in the regions that are being affected. And so that was sort of one way of trying to approach those misconceptions is just trying to bring more evidence and sort of nuanced understanding to the table and sort of ensure that other considerations are being made and that people aren't sort of just running off with the latest interpretation that they read in an op-ed in some magazine and sort of ignoring sort of, you know, a longer history of research and understanding and inputs that should go into the process. Yeah, I mean, I think that's sort of one example that I would think of when in terms of that question.

Bareeq: Yeah, that's a great example. And I love that in your experience, it's almost like your background as a Muslim became kind of like a superpower, like you were the resident expert. And because, you know, your business, like revolved around that, you were able to provide almost like a business case for, you know, being diverse in this profession and how you had that expertise to share. So I think that's fantastic. Wardah, you talked a little bit about being the only, right? The only Muslim in the room, the only Pakistani in the room, or the only woman in the room. And I wanted to just ask, do you think that awareness of Muslim culture and traditions, like we mentioned Ramadan, Eid, has improved in the legal profession? And how do you think law firms can create more inclusive environments for Muslim attorneys and staff?

Wardah: Yeah, I mean, for as long as I've been working here, I do think it is getting better. And I do see a lot of diversity. I see a lot of people from different backgrounds who, you know, I don't have to explain it to every single person that I meet, but there are still a lot of questions and people that don't know, especially, you know, like there are a lot of partners I work with that they don't, they haven't really had to experience somebody who's fasted before or had to take off time during Eid or, you know, just had a Muslim on their team before. And so they, While I do think things are improving, and I'm sure like Rizzy and Arsalan can say more about how it's changed over their time, I do think it's improved a lot, but I do think there's a lot more work to be done. And I think part of it is, you know, people shouldn't, you know, feed into these stereotypes or make assumptions about people. You know, we are on a spectrum. There's a lot of diversity within Islam as well. And we, you know, practice. We have a lot of similarities. We have a lot of differences. And I think it's good to do research. I think it's good to ask questions. I think it's good to have these conversations so that we can help accommodate and we can help, you know, take care of each other and see how we can help and how we can increase the representation moving forward as well.

Bareeq: I love that. Thank you. Rizzy, I'm going to pose the next question to you as we get close to wrapping up. What role do you find affinity groups and DEI initiatives like the Muslim Inclusion Committee, what role do you think they play in fostering that inclusion and support for Muslim professionals?

Rizzy: I think they play a critical role. And, you know, as having the privilege of serving as the sort of founding partner co-chair at Reed Smith of our Muslim Inclusion Committee, we didn't know when we started the Muslim Inclusion Committee, you know, a year and a half ago, or whatever it was, Bareeq, you would know the exact date, but that the conflict in Gaza was going to, you know, go in the direction that it did, and that the human impact of it would be so direct to many of us. Our colleagues and having a safe space to discuss how do I both support my community and those impacted, but also remain appropriately Empathetic and sympathetic to the plight of our Jewish brothers and sisters who had been impacted by it as well. You know, in a work environment, there are so many things at play, because let me step back for a moment. I mean, Muslim Inclusion Committee or not, whatever the business inclusion group is, whatever affinity group, we as a law firm, and most law firms across the planet, their number one obligation is to their clients. That's what our ethical duty is. And to the partnership, the obligation is to ensure that we remain profitable so our people can stay employed, right? And when you sort of put that aside and that priority aside is like, what kind of culture and environment you want to bring and do you want to have at your firm? And I can tell you, I'm really proud of being at this firm because I grew up at this firm and now being in leadership and on the executive committee, I can see from top to bottom, there is a real commitment. To having an inclusive environment. But sometimes that's hard to do. You can have all the commitments you want and you can have all the good intentions you want. But if our black colleagues are not feeling safe following George Floyd, which was an issue across the globe, across corporate America, if our Muslim colleagues are not feeling safe because of the anti-Muslim backlash that has occurred post 9-11 or has occurred post the events in Gaza, or our Jewish colleagues don't feel safe because of the increased anti-Semitism, those safe spaces to express how you're feeling and how to navigate that both outside and in the workplace are so critical. And it sounds kind of. Really minor, but I think safe spaces are key. And, you know, it also provides you an opportunity to find a connection to your colleague outside of the day-to-day substantive grind of practicing law, which I think is important. And the final point that I'll make is, like most groups, Muslims are not monoliths. There are all kinds of Muslims who have all kinds of belief systems, who have very different approaches to their faith. But what I love about the Muslim inclusion committees, and I would say something very controversial, which I'm not afraid to say. Sometimes I find inclusion committees, particularly Muslim inclusion committees, to be more inclusive than we even see in our own communities at mosques and other places, because there's a recognition that we need to be open and inclusive and foster an environment that all can thrive in. So I think it's great, and I think it's a great opportunity, finally, to educate our colleagues. It's very normal for everybody around Yom Kippur. Now it's become part of our language. And it wasn't like this 20 years ago, where we talk to our colleagues and we tell them, have a good fast and have a good Sabbath. I want that to be part of the dialogue and language of all of our colleagues across the legal profession when Ramadan approaches, that there's an acknowledgement and knowledge amongst those who are Muslim and non-Muslim that here's what the Muslims who are practicing are about to get to do. And let me wish, you know, Arsalan or Wardah a good fast or a blessed Ramadan. And if we can get there, if that's language that's normal, just like saying Merry Christmas to somebody, to me, that's success.

Bareeq: I love that. I mean, we have partners saying Jum'a Mubarak, so, you know, we're halfway there. So I'm going to end on one question, and I'm going to, you know, take it around the panel before we end. And I'll start with you, Arsalan. So what advice would you give to Muslim associates or law students that aspire to succeed in this field? And then on the flip side, what advice would you give non-Muslim colleagues and leaders in law firms to be better allies to Muslim co-workers?

Arsalan: I think for the associates or law students, I think that the kind of message is really just that, you know, you have a place in this industry and there is no kind of forced choice between adhering to your ethics and values and religious practice and being a successful lawyer. I think there are, especially at this point now, you know, many, many examples of people who are successful in the field are in leadership positions like Rizzy, are in senior kind of leadership roles in government and private sector. So, you know, role models are there, examples are there. And I think it's really, I think it's a bright future for those who want to enter this space and want to do so while remaining true to their own beliefs and values. I think it's really important for folks, you know, just to think about what kind of environment they're creating and what kind of atmosphere they want. You know, Rizzy was just talking about creating an inclusive atmosphere where people can celebrate each other's holidays and just make people feel welcome and appreciated for who they are and what they believe and not feel like they have to hide that. I mean, I think that's great. I think those kind of environments are environments where people will feel happy, will feel like they are valued and will make them, you know, happier to come into work and to make sure that they're doing their best for their clients, but also for their colleagues. And so that's the advice that I would give. You know, we have a similar approach at Foley Hoag. We have kind of a robust DE&I effort. We have an affinity group for Arab, Muslim and Middle Eastern attorneys or those who have such a background. So we try to similarly ensure that all of our attorneys from various backgrounds have the means to express what they choose to express, but also are able to stay true to their practices, beliefs, and values while being productive members of the firm. So I think those kind of values are values that firms and other sort of companies will be much more successful in kind of cultivating, retaining, and attracting talent than those that have kind of a more. I don't know what the right description would be, but a less inclusive or sort of a more sort of Darwinian approach to advancement and inclusion.

Bareeq: Fantastic. Thank you. Wardah, what about you?

Wardah: Yeah, so I think, I mean, I echo a lot of what Arsalan just said, but I don't think you should be afraid to be who you are. You can be true to your values and your roots. It's been really nice to see new associates come in who are Muslims and, you know, they come to me for advice. And even though I'm still figuring all of this out, too, I want to encourage them to, you know, not be afraid to be Muslim and not be afraid to show that you're Muslim and, you know, speak up for yourself when the time arises and don't be afraid. You know, there will always be resources. And I think to our colleagues, like I said, I think it's important that people don't make assumptions about us. But at the same time, advice for us and like younger Muslim attorneys as well, don't make assumptions about other people as well. Sometimes your greatest allies will be in people that are different from you. Oftentimes there'll be people that are different than you. Sometimes your biggest advocates will be, you know, like people that you never expected. And the only way you can get there is by having these honest, real conversations with them.

Bareeq: I love that. And I echo that. I do find that sometimes, you know, non-Muslim colleagues or someone that's not like you can be your strongest advocate and ally. Rizzy, finally, what about you?

Rizzy: I would just say for Muslim associates and law students, we live in a different world today where you can effectively get, I mean, you can look up Arsalan's incredible journey in his career by Googling him and looking at his LinkedIn profile. And I would encourage people to identify, assuming you want to make connections, identify Muslim colleagues or those who identify as Muslim outwardly or not, whose careers you're interested in, and take the step to make outreach to them. Because all of us, and I would think Arsalan and Wardah would agree, and you as well, Bareeq, as a leader, a Muslim leader in D&I, in big law, to make outreach. And don't wait for your law firm apparatus to appoint a mentor to you. Go out and adopt your own mentors. And that's paid dividends in my career. I've cold-called or cold-emailed people that I had some connection to, whether it's our background or whether it's the law school we went to. And I can give countless examples of why I became a federal law clerk or became an AUSA. And I attribute a lot of that to just making cold calls. And for our non-Muslim colleagues and leaders, I think it's just to not forget that we're here. And not to, you know, just like when I go into one of my really difficult investigation matters or trial matters, I think about my entire team. And I have extroverts on my team and I have introverts on my team. And I think about how the introvert, I'm going to use him or her effectively in this otherwise pretty adversarial encounter with DOJ or with a witness that we need to interview and how am I going to put him or her in the best position to succeed? Because it's easy to just say the extrovert will do what I need him or her to do, and I'll get the job done. But it's thinking like that outside of the box with inclusivity that, you know, it's getting close to Ramadan. We're about to have this big retreat for some reason at the firm. And I'm giving a hypothetical example. Is this the right time to do it? How many of our Muslim colleagues is this going to impact? You know, those are the kinds of things that I want our non-Muslim colleagues to think about, just like we think about when we're approaching other important monumental days for other non-Muslim colleagues, whether it's in the calendar year because it's a holiday or because something else is going on in that community. And, you know, once you don't lose sight of the fact that we're here, and that's incumbent upon us as Muslim Americans to remind folks that we're here, you know, I believe that we're going to be heading in the right direction that I think we already are in many respects.

Bareeq: I love that. And I feel like as we've talked about, being the only person in the room can be an isolating experience, but it can also have power. Being in the room is also powerful because, like Rizzy mentioned, you know, you have to be considered. You have to be acknowledged. And so, you know, I said two sides of the same coin sometimes. So as we wrap up, I want to say thank you so much, Arsalan Rizzy and Wardah, for sharing your stories, insights, and advice. Your contributions have been both inspiring and thought-provoking. And I want to thank our listeners for tuning into this episode of Inclusivity Included. Be sure to join us next time as we continue exploring the many facets of diversity, equity, and inclusion in the legal profession. Thank you.

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Shannon Llenza, Assistant General Counsel at Microsoft and Commander, U.S. Navy Reserve (retired), reflects with Reed Smith data coordinator Mark Butterfield, a member of RSVets, Reed Smith’s veterans business inclusion group, on how her military service has impacted her legal, governmental, and corporate career.

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Transcript:

Mark: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Inclusivity Included. I'm Mark Butterfield. I'm a proud member of Reed Smith Vets here at Reed Smith, and your host for today's episode. With my own military service background and my ongoing doctoral studies, I'm deeply committed to exploring what service means in and beyond the military. Today, we have a truly unique guest, Shannon Llenza, a seasoned attorney and former member of Reed Smith's Business Leadership Council. She brings remarkable experience from both the military and corporate worlds. Shannon began her career as a full-time Navy JAG officer, moving into the reserves where she held key legal roles with the National Security Agency, the Department of Defense, and tackling issues with national impact in those roles. Now at Microsoft, she continues to apply the expertise that she builds, navigating critical intelligence and security matters. So Shannon, thank you so much for joining us to share your journey of service, leadership, and resilience.

Shannon: Thank you so much for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Mark: It's a real pleasure for me. I would like to start by asking, first of all, what motivated you to begin your journey with the Navy?

Shannon: Yeah, you know, it's funny. I didn't join the Navy until I actually commissioned my second year of law school. and the motivation to join the Navy is actually a funny story. It was my father who told me that I should go into the JAG Corps. And the reason he told me that is because there was this show called JAG that he loved and he thought it was just so cool. So he, you know, suggested it to me and I had no idea what the JAG Corps was. It never even occurred to me to join the military. At that time, I was 29 years old, so I was older. So I started exploring the opportunities my second year, and I interviewed with some JAGs. I was just really impressed by the program and the experience that I would be able to gain going into the JAG Corps. And so once I was offered a position, I sealed the deal and I went in. I commissioned and then I commissioned. Yeah, so it was great.

Mark: And did you have a family history of military service?

Shannon: You know, it's funny. No, no, I didn't have a family history of military service. In fact, I was the first person in my family to even graduate from college. So going to law school was a huge deal. And then joining the military was even a bigger deal. So, yeah, I'm the first.

Mark: Yeah, we have similar overlap there. I'm the same. It's been my grandparents that served in the sailor into the Second World War.

Shannon: Oh, my gosh. Wow.

Mark: And then, yeah, for me, again, one of the first to go to university as well in the family, which was, yeah, so very similar in those respects.

Shannon: Yeah, yeah, that's great.

Mark: You've held significant roles across the military and the civilian sectors that I've briefly alluded to, particularly in regards to things like national security. And has this background sort of shaped your approach to your current position and challenges at Microsoft?

Shannon: Yeah. So it's interesting. I got out of the JAG Corps after four years of active duty when I had my son, because my husband was also active duty. So it was kind of challenging for us. And that's when I went into the reserves. So when I got out of the Navy, I started working for the U.S. Government in various capacities that led to really a career in national security. I started at the Department of Defense, working on Guantanamo Habeas Matters. And then, like you said, I moved over to the National Security Agency and then ultimately ended up at the Department of the Justice writing counterintelligence and counterterrorism FISA's. The interesting thing in the JAG Corps and the reserves, I did serve in our national security litigation section for a period of time. So I did do some national security work as well in the JAG Corps. And the interesting link between the two really is how, when I had my job at the Department of Defense, I worked with the intelligence community, and that's when I really became interested in transitioning over into the intelligence community and becoming an attorney in that area. And it was people in the reserves that I knew that were working in the intelligence community that sort of helped me parlay my job from the Department of Defense into the National Security Agency and then into the Department of Justice. So even though the reserves, I wasn't directly involved in these agencies when I was in the reserves, the reserves had a huge part to play in me really advancing my career and helping me get to where I wanted to be in the intelligence community and government. And then the way that worked with Microsoft was really interesting. I actually applied for a job. My original job at Microsoft was, I was the attorney advising on when Microsoft would receive legal process from the federal government, state, local government, national security FISAs. And so all of that experience I had in the government really, really transitioned over to Microsoft so that I, you know, it was sort of a unicorn job at Microsoft. You had to have national security experience and FISA experience. And I was like, oh, my God, that's the job for me. Right. And so then that's how I was able to take all of that experience that I had in the U.S. Government and transfer it over to my role at Microsoft, my original role.

Mark: Yeah, it's a really unique and interesting CV for me to read through. Yeah. It's just so varied. I suppose you must have spent a lot of time sort of juggling these multiple roles and your family life and everything else. How do you balance that in terms of your service commitments, your family commitments, your various career roles?

Shannon: Yeah. You know, it was, it was challenging. It was hard because when I was full into the reserves and working full time, you know, my kids were little and my husband was active duty. So it was, it was definitely challenging. You know, it just, I just made the commitment to, to do that, that balance. And, you know, I, I honestly like looking back, like, I don't know how I did it. You know, I just did it. Right. It's like, you're sort of in it and I was committed to staying in the reserves. I just figured it out, I guess. The most important thing to me always was my family and taking care of them. What's interesting is when I was about 15 years into it back in 2000 or 17 years into it, I guess, back in 2019, I actually was tagged for an involuntary mobilization to Djibouti. And so at the time, my daughter was 9 and my son was 14. My husband had just gotten off active duty and they sent me away for about 15 months. I had 12 months boots on ground. You know, that was interesting and difficult. And, you know, again, it's just one of these things that you just get through it, right? Because you've made that commitment. And as much as I didn't want to go, and I didn't want to leave my daughter and my son, but you just got to do what you have said you're going to do.

Mark: Absolutely. And the 15 months, I'm always astonished by the U.S. duration. Our deployments in the British military are usually half that. So that length of separation must be really challenging. If you've got a husband who's in the service, some bit of understanding there as well.

Shannon: Yeah, he was definitely understanding. He, you know, as I worked and I was in the reserves and had kids, he did five deployments, much shorter. His were between as long as seven months, but then they would be about three or four months. So, so he, you know, I knew, you know, I had experienced a deployment, he was active duty, he knew what he was in for, but, but it was a really long time to leave, to leave my husband and my kids, you know, and then it actually overlapped with COVID as well. And so that, that made for an even more challenging experience. So yeah, it was, it was a little bit difficult.

Mark: I can imagine. So I suppose being in the military, you're, you're learning a lot of unique lessons. What unique lessons did you learn in the military about resilience, dealing with high stakes decisions and managing change, these sorts of things that could be potentially valuable to people in a corporate setting?

Shannon: Yeah. I think you learn how to manage change pretty easily. I think that things are always changing and moving and fluid, especially, for instance, I'll just go back to the deployment, right? You know, I mean, it was just, you're in a combat zone, even though it's Djibouti, things are moving quickly. My job was to advise the commanding officer of the base. So it was a lot of very, you know, there were decisions that had to be made, they had to be made quickly. And so you just, in that. Experience, really, it allowed me to become more confident in myself and understand like, okay, I am a good lawyer. I do understand this. I can't advise a commanding officer, right? And so it really just helped me gain confidence as an attorney and my abilities, and then also just helped me learn how to just roll through change and deal with issues as they came up. The resilience part definitely was there as well. Just staying strong while I was away from my family and staying on course with the military and making sure I was performing in the way I should be performing, even though I was thousands of miles away from my family. So it's, there's a lot of lessons to be learned in the military, a lot of, a lot of good lessons and, and just how to get things done. Right. I mean, the military is a place where, um, sometimes you'll get tasked with an issue or a problem. You will not have a lot of information. Um, and you just have to figure it out. And I have really learned over the years working in the military, just how to figure things out. And that doesn't mean figuring it out on my own. That means knowing who to go to, to help me figure out what, what the solution is to the problem that's being presented in front of me. But, and then it also removes that sort of fear of doing things that you're not comfortable with. You become comfortable with the uncomfortable things that you may have to do or solve because you, you, you don't have a choice, right? You're required. That's your job and you just need to figure it out. And so you, you become more comfortable with just dealing with issues and matters that may, may not be in your wheelhouse, but you can figure out who to go to and how to solve them.

Mark: You've also been involved quite heavily with pro bono work, it seems, in your time as well. Could you speak to that at all, about how you've managed to find the time to juggle all these aspects? Shanon: Yeah, you know, pro bono work is really important to me. And whether it's an asylum case, I've done several of those, or helping veterans get benefits that they are, you know, entitled to. I mean, it's just really important, I think. I mean, that's really one of the reasons I became an attorney. I became an attorney because I really wanted to be able to help people who could not help themselves or who could not navigate the law. I had a relative, my grandmother, where I watched her when I was a kid, unable to navigate the law for an issue she had related to, it was the DOW chemical implant issue that happened back in the 80s and 90s. She had breast cancer. I watched her try to fight for her rights and her health. It was so difficult, the legal challenges that she faced. I swore that I didn't ever want to be in that position, which is really one of the motivating reasons why I went to law school, but then also to help people like that who are in positions where they just needed help. For whatever it was that they were entitled to. And if I could help them in some way, then I absolutely, I'm there to do it. So, and I get so much pleasure out of it, really, especially when you get a good result. I've had, with asylum, I've had some not great results. Then I've had, you know, I helped an Afghan family come over here after we exited Bagram. And so I helped them with seeking asylum. And we got that. And that was really, you know, really rewarding. Or I helped a veteran, an Army combat veteran, get additional entitlements that he was entitled to. And that was great. So things like that are really important to me.

Mark: Absolutely. As a veteran yourself now, I understand. Are you recently retired, I understand, or retiring?

Shannon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I retired on April 1st. I did my 20 years. And on April 1st, I retired from the reserves. That is correct. So I am done.

Mark: Well, congratulations. You're welcome with open arms into the veteran community, I'm sure.

Shannon: Yeah, yeah, of course.

Mark: Do you think you'll play an active role in the same sort of way that you have been doing?

Shannon: Probably pro bono wise, yeah. And Microsoft is very big into supporting pro bono work. We have a huge veterans community here at Microsoft, which I'm involved in. And, you know, so I'm definitely going to be staying involved in that and involved in pro bono work related to veterans going forward. Absolutely.

Mark: That's great to hear. As someone who's dedicated much of your life to service, what advice would you offer young people today about pursuing a career in either public service or the military?

Shannon: You know, I cannot express enough how, what a great benefit it is to either serve in the military or just serve in the government. And I even try to tell, it's funny because my son just started college and he's not interested in the military at all, which, you know, you can't make somebody go into the military if they don't want to. But I would tell anybody who is looking for a career or looking for, you know, even just serving for four or five years, that it's absolutely worth it, right? And the thing is that young people, when you're 19 and 20, you don't see when you're 55 years old, like I do now, right? Like I'm 54 and I'm like, all right, I only got five more years and I get that retirement, it. Right. And so, so it was 20 years and it, it was hard, but the benefit in the end is so great. You know, I, I, um, I'm going to get a retirement. I, I have the GI bill, so I'm going to be able to use that to put my daughter through college. My husband has a GI bill, so he was able to put my son through college. So, so, you know, we get healthcare and so, and then the experience, right? I mean, I came right out of law school and I started, I was a prosecutor and I'm prosecuting these, you know, fraud cases, rape cases, drug cases. I mean, you name it, it was insane, right? And so, and then the, and then the people you meet along the way, people that I have known my whole career that I will be friends with for the rest of my life. So there are just so many great benefits of being in the military. And the great thing now is you don't even have to serve 20 years to get a retirement. They have changed it so that you can serve just whatever period of time you serve, you will receive a benefit for that period of time. There's just not enough I can say about it. The people, the experience, the benefits that in the end, there's nothing like it. And And I'm so grateful that I did it.

Mark: I think that's really great to hear. I served for a much shorter period of time, just the four years. I did basic training, almost immediately deployed to Afghanistan straight afterwards for six months in total. But again, I knew what I was going into. The war was happening at the time. And then came back. Also, like you, went to Africa, but for training in Kenya for a short period. and then, yeah, deployed on a second tour of Afghanistan, which was completely different from the first. And then, yeah, at that point, I feel like my service as ended I think it was time for me to to move on and I was I was very fortunate I suppose that I started my family after I’d left the military um I think that was pretty wise decision on my part I would hate to have had to enjoy that separation that you you've already spoken about yeah. Incredible for for anybody to do that i think i think it's a very noble sacrifice.

Shannon: Oh thank you.

Mark: Is there a lesson from time in the military that sort of shapes the way that you approach life or how you approach work almost on a daily basis at all?

Shannon: You know, there is, and it sort of goes back to something I said earlier, and it's really about, I have a bias for action, right? I think I got that from the military. And so I think my work ethic, working hard, getting things done, being able to figure things out, all of that really came from my experience in the military and really shapes the way I perform and work at Microsoft, right? I'm not, I'm not scared to take on issues or projects that I might not be a hundred percent familiar with. You know, if you need to figure something out, you know, I'm the person who can probably figure it out really without a lot of information. I mean, I mean, and, and just when I mean work ethic, I mean really integrity, right? You know, doing, doing the right thing when nobody is looking. And that's really important. I think the military taught me, you know, all of those great lessons. And I use them, you know, every day when I'm working at Microsoft, for sure.

Mark: So this is a bit of a personal question for my own part, is that in some of my historical research that I've been doing, and although this isn't a U.S. issue, it's kind of a bit more of a global topic, I suppose. I think everyone will have strong opinions on this, is that in the concept of national service or conscription, it's something that's been raised relatively recently in Britain again, actually, with the prospect of national service being something that could be reintroduced.

Shannon: Requiring everyone to serve?

Mark: Yeah um and i was wondering if if you would think that was uh as somebody who has served in this position already whether you'd think it'd be something that would be would be valuable and worthwhile or something that you'd need to take with a certain degree of caution?

Shannon: You know I think that's really interesting because I think there is I think that it would be incredible if we could have national service I mean if we could have everybody have to serve two years I think I think it'd be incredibly valuable. You know, I think it, because when you're in the service, it's, it's something bigger than yourself. Right. And it's an experience like no other. And you are part of, you know, in our countries fighting for democracy and, and freedom. And that's what you're doing when you're serving. You're, you're the one who is, who is allowing and keeping the constitution moving. And, you know, and, and so I think, yeah, I think, I think national service. Would be a great idea. I mean, it would never happen in America. I mean, you have a draft, right? You might have a draft, but, but I just couldn't see national service happening, but I, I think it would be great if young people were required to serve a couple of years, either in the military or even in just public service. So they understand, you know, so they, So they understand what giving back is, what being part of something that's larger than themselves is. I think it would be a great thing.

Mark: Well, that's great to hear. Thank you.

Shannon: When you're saying they're talking about it in Britain, are they actually thinking of, is it something that's actually getting some legs? Are they moving on it?

Mark: I don't believe so. I think, actually, it's been more of a political football that's been tossed in there. But yeah, with our recent overturn of government, I'm not sure that it's going to be something that is reintroduced. But yeah, I would defer on how these legal things happened to you. But yeah, it's reared its head again. And it's one of those questions that I'm uncertain about. I think for some people, it's one of those careers that can be really rewarding and really valuable. It's not for everybody in all circumstances. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, for sure. It takes a certain personality. And I think forcing, well, not forcing, but legislating that people potentially could or should join as a matter of statutory requirements might be a bit of a problem. But yeah.

Shannon: Yeah, no, I totally get what you're saying.

Mark: Do you see the role of service changing in the future? And do you anticipate any challenges with service?

Shannon: If our secretary of defense is confirmed by the congress senate it sounds like he would like to make some changes so that that might be interesting you know stand by and see what happens i think he is against women in combat i think that that's one thing i don't think they are pro diversity and inclusion gays in the military transgender in the military so i think with the new administration coming in, depending on who gets confirmed to be Secretary of Defense. It'll be interesting to see what happens to the military. I think if the guy who's been nominated gets in, I think there'll be some pretty big changes to serving in the military.

Mark: As a woman who's served in the military, is that something that you've, you know, were you in the minority or is it much more inclusive? I mean, from my experience with the U.S. Military, it always seemed really diverse.

Shannon: It's funny how it's changed from even when I went in in 2000, let's see, I commissioned and I started, I was on active duty starting in 2002. It's funny how much has changed even since then, how much more aware we've become of diversity and inclusion and the benefits of it or accepting people for who they are. Women definitely are the minority. I mean, when I was in these meetings in Djibouti as a commanding officer's attorney, there were meetings where I was the only woman in the room. And that happens a lot, right? And so I think that we've made great strides so that women and minorities can excel in the military. And so it'll be sort of painful to see us go backwards if we no longer allow women in combat, because that will then probably prevent them from then rising up into the ranks, because the way you do that is through your combat experience and who you have commanded. And so if you can't command over combat commands, then you're going to be at a disadvantage to be able to promote up. So that'll make it more difficult. And I was thinking about the women who are currently... You know, I only know the Navy, right? And so you have women fighter pilots who, I mean, what's going to happen to them, right? You know, you have all these women who have trained, we've invested millions of dollars into these women flying airplanes and helicopters. And now, like, all of a sudden, they're no longer have the ability to go into combat. It seems a little short-sighted, but, you know, I guess we'll see what the new administration does.

Mark: Yeah, I think you touched on some really, really excellent points there. I think we'll return for the final summarizing question. I was just wondering if you think there's, when you think back on your time in the military, if there's a single story, a single moment that you could share with us that captures what service means to you?

Shannon: Probably when I was in Djibouti and COVID hit, you talk about a time where there was no playbook and no rules and nobody knew what to do. And it was March of 2020. I think it was March or April. The country of Djibouti had shut down, right? There was nobody going in and out. And we had all of these people on base and we were contained, right? And so... We were worried about COVID and COVID breaking out on base because it could be catastrophic, right? You have all these people contained in one base that's not very big. And you start getting the, you know, if it starts spreading, it could spread like wildfire. So we, I mean, it was just amazing the way that the commanding officer led the base and how everybody worked together. You know, everybody from everybody on the base, everybody in the health service center, the CBs. I mean, they went and they converted a building into an infirmary and beds so that if we started getting people sick, we could segregate them into like an infirmary area because Djibouti didn't have a hospital. It had a small medical facility. And the purpose of that medical facility was if people were injured in combat in Africa or wherever, they could come up to Djibouti, get triage, and then eventually get sent on to Germany, right? That's what would happen. So, I mean, all of these people worked together. They created this infirmary. We created rules for dining. It was just this incredible effort where everybody really just came together to work together for the safety and security of that base and to make sure people stayed safe. We ended up actually having one guy, he was a contractor, get COVID. And it was back in the day when COVID would hit. And it was, I mean, the guy within two days was on, he was intubated. And we only had five of those for like the base. And we had like five or eight. I mean, it was like, we did not have a lot of equipment. And so the medical facility. These doctors, these incredible doctors kept this guy alive with duct tape and nothing, right? I mean, literally, he was in this room. He was on oxygen. And we could not get him off the base because nobody would take him. We couldn't get an airplane to come take him. We couldn't find a country to take him. And I remember sitting in this call and it was just a bunch of high-level people trying to figure out what to do. And I'll never forget the medical doctor was like, if we don't get this guy off the base tomorrow, he is going to die. And it was like the Department of State came in and just all of these different agencies. Anyway, the Department of State intervened. We ended up getting the guy to Germany and he lived. And it was just this... I just found the whole, it was just incredible how everybody just worked together just to do everything they could during this pandemic to include save this guy's life, right? And it was just incredible watching how just everybody came together to make everything happen that needed to happen for the safety and security of all the people on that base.

Mark: That's really wonderful. And I think that's a perfect place for us to end. So thank you very much. I really appreciate your time.

Shannon: Thank you so much for having me on. I appreciate it.

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This year, we commemorated National Disabilities Employment Awareness Month by exploring how employers can work toward providing access to good jobs for persons with disabilities in the legal profession; the tangible benefits of employing persons with disabilities; the feasibility of providing accommodations; and the use of assistive technology. Our speakers provided their thoughts on best practices, shared personal journeys and insights, and reflected on how far employers have come and where we need to focus to increase future employment opportunities for persons with disabilities in the legal profession and beyond. Our guests included Kevin Hara: Counsel, Reed Smith; Ronza Othman: President, National Association of Blind Government Employees – a division of the National Federation of the Blind; Nicholas Carden: Associate General Counsel, Coinbase, and former Board Member of Disability:IN; and Laurie Allen: Microsoft, Senior Accessibility Technology Evangelist.

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Transcript:

Kevin: Hello, everybody. Welcome back to an episode of Inclusivity Included. Thank you, everyone, for joining. My name is Kevin Hara. I'm counsel at Reed Smith in the Life Sciences and Health Industries Group, and I'm proud to commemorate National Disabilities Employment Awareness Month, which is in October of every year. And this year's theme is access to good jobs for all. We have a number of distinguished panelists today joining us, including Ronza Othman, who is president of the National Association of Blind Government Employees, a division of the National Federation of the Blind. Nick Carden, associate general counsel from Coinbase, a former board member of Disability:IN. And Laurie Allen from Microsoft, a senior accessibility technology evangelist. So thank you, Ronza, Nick, and Laurie for joining us. We're thrilled to have you here as part of our podcast. And without further ado, I would like to ask Ronza to talk a little bit about your journey, how you have arrived where you are, and some of the important steps you took that led you to where you are today.

Ronza: Great. Thank you so much. I'm really delighted to be here. I am a blind attorney and my training was initially as a high school STEM teacher. And that's what I did to get myself through law school. And ultimately I've had a number of different legal jobs, but in state and local government and private sector, ultimately ended up in the federal government where now I manage civil rights programs for a large federal agency. And so my journey has been one of exploration and learning, not only because, you know, being a lawyer, an attorney is always difficult for any person, but also when you add the complications of inaccessible technology and perceptions about people with disabilities and what they can and cannot do, and the obstacles that those negative attitudes create, there's definitely been some really interesting experiences along the way, but I think that I'm optimistic in terms of where we are now. So my paid job, of course, is with the government. And as a volunteer, I serve as the president of the National Association of Blind Government Employees, where we have a number of blind and low vision employees of state, local, federal, and pseudo-government agencies that are members that are experiencing life as public servants, supporting this country at the local and state and national level. It is an honor to represent them and us in a variety of different circumstances, and I've gotten to do a lot of really cool things as a result.

Kevin: That's great. Thank you so much, Ronza. And Nick, if you'd like to share a little bit about your path that led you to where you are today.

Nicholas: Thanks, Kevin. And thanks to Reed Smith for having us. This is a great opportunity to speak about an important issue that impacts all of us on this call. I, like Ronza, I am a lawyer with a disability. I started my career right out of law school in-house, which is somewhat unusual, but it sort of led me to where I am today in the sense that early in my career, I was a true corporate generalist, and through various personnel changes and responsibility changes, I was at a consumer products manufacturing company and had the opportunity to pick up some, advertising and marketing and entertainment legal work. And I really enjoyed that type of work. It's a lot of fun. It's fast paced and it's highly creative and interesting work. So I've stayed in that sort of practice area as an in-house lawyer through my career to today where at Coinbase, I lead a global marketing legal team.

Kevin: Great. Thank you, Nick. And Laurie, we'd love to hear a little bit about the path you took to where you are today.

Laurie: Thanks, Kevin. And thank you again for inviting us to join you to talk about this great topic. So I am not an attorney. I work at Microsoft, as you mentioned. And I've been in tech for about 30 years. I've only been at Microsoft for a little over two. But my journey actually into accessibility started about nine and a half years ago when I had a spinal cord injury. and became quadriplegic. The only thing that didn't dramatically change about my life in that moment was my ability to do my job. And that's because of accessible technology that was available to me. And frankly, my job was quite literally a lifeline for me. So I'm so grateful that people came before me to create this technology. And about three years ago, I had this epiphany. How did this technology get created? And who built it? And why am I not part of the solution. So that's when I started pivoting my career into accessibility. So I feel quite fortunate to be in a role where I can combine my background in technology with my lived experience as a person with disability to help empower others like me, find meaningful employment, and succeed and thrive.

Kevin: Thank you so much. All of you have had such unique experiences and out to the successful careers that you are now engaged in today, but it hasn't always been easy for persons with disabilities in the legal profession and other professions to succeed. So I'd like to stay with you, Laurie, and to ask you, what do you believe are some of the barriers or challenges for persons with disabilities to find access to good jobs?

Laurie: And I think Ronza had mentioned it earlier, it's access to technology. It's discoverability, I find, that can be a barrier. People just don't know what technologies are available to support them in their work environments. And beyond that, it's finding companies who've built inclusive work environments for employees with disabilities, so that when they go through the interview process, they feel included, they feel supported, and as they're onboarded and as they can continue through their career. And then understanding that there are platforms that are available, like Mentra, for example, is a Microsoft partner. It's an amazing neurodiversity hiring platform. But I think just knowing what's available is sometimes quite difficult. And, you know, when people incur a disability like I did, they're starting from scratch, and they don't know what to ask for because it's a new environment for them.

Kevin: Thank you. That's a really good point. Having the access to the proper tools is key for anybody with a disability to succeed in any career path. Ronza, how about your perspective? How would you characterize some of the challenges people are facing and ways to overcome them?

Ronza: I think that the biggest challenge that the people with disabilities are really facing in terms of employment and just moving about society and contributing meaningfully in employment settings, but also in every setting, is the negative attitudes that people at large have about disability. Negative stereotypes. The unemployment rate for people with disabilities in the United States is over 50%. The unemployment rate for people who are blind and low vision in the United States is half again that almost at 75%. It's currently at 73%. That's mind boggling. These are people who want to work for the most part, but can't because nobody will hire them or because they don't have the proper training to be able to perform the jobs where there is a need. But all that really comes down to society's low expectations for people with disabilities and the barriers, artificial, usually, that society creates and puts in our way. One of the things that I really like to do as a hiring manager is I love meeting with and interviewing people with disabilities because they're so creative in their problem-solving. Their solutioning is out of the box thinking. And just to get to work in the morning, to get to the job, they have to have solved a whole bunch of problems in an environment, in a situation, in a society, not necessarily built for them. Whether it's the broken elevator, or whether it's the bus that didn't roll up to the bus stop where it was supposed to, or whether it's the technology that didn't work because somebody pushed a security update, so it broke its ability to communicate with assistive technology, or whether it's somebody, a well-meaning, you know, abled person who decided that they know where this person is trying to go and they're going to force them to go there as opposed to where the person is actually trying to go. All of those things, people with disabilities problem solve before they, you know, really start their day or as they're starting their day. And so I think we don't give enough credit to the workforce of folks with disabilities in terms of what they can do, what they have done, frankly, and then society just has negative expectations. The biggest aspect of disability isn't the disability itself. It's people without disabilities or people who don't understand disabilities who get in our way.

Nicholas: I’d love to add to that because I agree with a lot of that. And I think thinking about access to jobs, the question that comes to mind to me is, do employers want to hire persons with disabilities. And I think there's no clear answer to that. And obviously, companies themselves are just made up of other human beings. And so there's, to Ronza’s point, the stigma attached to hiring persons with disabilities is ever present. But I'll share specifically in the legal industry, I think this industry does a particularly poor job of being intentional about hiring a truly diverse workforce. And this is, I'm calling out the legal industry as somebody who's in it, but I don't think it's unique to the legal industry in the sense that I still don't think when law firms are hiring for diverse candidates that they make a particular effort to recruit persons with disabilities. I think it can be as simple as asking for a voluntary disclosure on an application. And I still don't think as an industry we're doing those types of things. So there seem to be opportunities if the answer to the question of do you want to hire persons with disabilities is yes.

Ronza: I’ll just add to that, if I may. When you look at the United States census data on people with disabilities, somewhere between 20% and 25% of the population of this country has a disability. When you look at the census in the legal profession, when you look at the numbers in the legal profession, and the American Bar Association has done extensive research trying to sort this out, figure it out, as some other entities, it's less than 1%. Less than 1% of attorneys in the United States are willing to disclose that they have a disability. And those who are, it's usually an obvious or very visible disability, as opposed to some of these hidden disabilities that there's still so much stigma in the legal profession around. In the regular generic work industry generally, not specifically the legal profession, but everywhere, there's this misconception that it's going to be really expensive to hire somebody with a disability because you have to accommodate them or you have to adjust schedules or policies and so forth and so on. The Job Accommodation Network, which is a free resource to employers and employees about what's available in terms of reasonable accommodations for those with disabilities, did a study and they determined that the average cost of a reasonable accommodation is less than $100. So talking about negative attitudes and negative perceptions, one of them for employers, It's that it's going to cost me a lot of money or somehow the work I'm going to receive from this person is going to be less in terms of quality or quantity than other non-disabled employees and so forth and so on. And all of that is just not accurate. It's not supported by research and it's certainly not supported by those of us in the community with lived experience in the workforce.

Kevin: That's an excellent point, Ronza, and Nick as well. You both have captured the problem that we're facing in providing good jobs to persons with disabilities. I think dispelling the myths and misconceptions is one of the important steps. And I also think technology can play an important role. We alluded to this a little bit more, but Laurie, if you would like to speak a little bit more about how technology can really help people with disabilities succeed.

Laurie: Thanks, Kevin. So the way we approach it at Microsoft is we build with the community, not for the community. We mentioned it in the last question. We bring people with lived experience into our company. We want that diverse lived experience in our product making. I have a spinal cord injury. I know what it's like to have a mobility disability. I don't know what it's like to be blind and rely on a screen reader. And I can't assume what someone who uses a screen reader needs. So we take an approach of building in early. We build in accessibility into the design phase of our product development life cycle. We bring testers in who have different types of disabilities to test our products before we release them. And what we find, and Ron's mentioned it earlier, is that we get really creative solutions because, as she mentioned, we have to be creative to get out the door every morning. And when we do this, we find that everyone benefits. When we call it Built for One, Extend to Many. When we build with the disability community, everyone benefits. And I'll give you an example. For example, live captions were built for people who are deaf or hard of hearing, but 50% of Americans watch videos with live captions on, and if you narrow that down to Gen Z, it goes up to about 80%. So when we build for people with disabilities, everyone benefits.

Kevin: I think that's a really astute observation. It's not just about helping one particular segment, but including people with disabilities when you're building the technology is really important. And, you know, I couldn't thank you more for that approach, Laurie, because, you know, I also have a mobility disability, a spinal cord injury. So I understand from my perspective. But as you said, I wouldn't be able to talk about or understand what the needs of a person with a visual or other disability might be. So that's really good. And Ronza or Nick, would you like to weigh in on technology, how it has helped you, or how do you think it can help others?

Ronza: So technology really is, it leveled the playing field for many populations within the disability community. And so, for example, for the blind community, so much of the information that we receive is visual. So much as paper had historically been paper-based but you know street signs billboards all of the things that happen visually and on the computer though now we can have access to that same information or I can go to an ATM machine and I can plug in my headphones and I can pull out my money I can go to a voting booth in most states and I can privately and independently but vote my ballot. You know there's still places where of course there's work to do but in general the proliferation of technology solutions over the last 20 or 30 years has really made a huge impact on our ability to access information engage in the world and especially with our jobs, so whether it's a screen reader or whether it's a software that's used that is speech to text for those with manual dexterity challenges or whether it's a foot pedal instead of a mouse or whatever the case may be. There's just been such advances in technology that have made it more possible for an individual with a disability to work in so many different fields. Think about all the technology that exists now. Surgeons are doing surgery with robots some of the time. Technology is super cool. It's super advanced and it's only going to get more and more advanced. And so hopefully that means that participation of the disability community at work and in other places is also going to increase. Now, the drawback is, the more innovated the technology, the more risk of potential opportunities to make it inaccessible. And so we have to be really careful when we embrace technology because that's really important, but that it also is accessible. It is compatible with that assistive technology that I mentioned, but also that we're not so focused on creativity and innovation that we're cutting people out that we've recently gave access to these platforms and applications. And we're seeing that. We are seeing technology become less inclusive in lots of different spaces. And then, you know, so build it accessibly, you know, talking to our friends at Microsoft and everywhere else who are thinking about this every day. But also, whether we're building technology or whether we're building buildings or physical spaces or virtual spaces, you know, thinking about what does it mean for us to be inclusive? Who are we building for? And not related to technology, but when we started putting in curb cuts when the ADA was passed, that was primarily done for people who were using wheelchairs and other kinds of mobility devices. And now the population that is the most vocal, the biggest fans, are parents and caregivers of small children that are pushing strollers. And so, you know, again, that sort of universal effort, the Ray-Ban Metaglasses is another example. It wasn't built for people with disabilities, but people with disabilities are using it because it had inclusive universal design built into it. We're using it to read menus and help with navigation indoor and outdoor and wayfinding and all sorts of amazing things happening with technology and beyond. So the key is it's fabulous, but we also have to make sure that it stays fabulous by being inclusive and accessible.

Laurie: You make such a good point there, Ronza, and I think with this wave of generative AI and everyone racing to get products to market, it's more important than ever to be rigorous and disciplined in continuing to build accessibility in from the beginning and test it thoroughly all the way through before it's released.

Ronza: 100%.

Kevin: Ronza and Laurie, those are excellent points that you made. And I really think technology will go a long way to helping people with disabilities of all types become part of the workforce, become part of the legal profession. And I think we have all lived through recently the pandemic that, you know, was affected everyone, not just persons with disabilities. But I think one of the things that came out of that was the importance of remote work and how that can really change the landscape. And Nick, I believe Coinbase is, you said, almost all remote. So can you comment on how that has impacted you and how you think that affects people with disabilities in terms of having access to jobs?

Nicholas: Yeah, Coinbase is a remote first company. So everyone in the company has the option to be remote first. We do have some office locations in some major cities if some people feel like they want to go into an office, but there's no requirement to do that. And in my view, I don't know that remote work benefits just persons with disabilities. I think we can all agree that it benefits a lot more groups than just persons with disabilities. To me, the bottom line of the benefit of remote work is it levels the playing field for everyone. So if we're all remote, we don't. There's no small group or other group or specific individual or groups of individuals that have to worry about what's happening in an office. Are some people getting ahead by having lunches or just getting that face time that they otherwise aren't able to do to be into the office? Whether that's because they live somewhere else where the office isn't, or they're a person with a disability and it's not easy to get into the office, or for any other reason of why it doesn't make sense. I think specifically for parents with children who are working. Remote work is a great benefit. So I love what remote work does for everyone. And it's been a real benefit. I think Coinbase deserves a lot of credit. For being one of the first companies in I think it was may of 2020 to decide that is how we're going to operate our company we think we can do it effectively and so far now you know four plus years later they're doing really well and um i don't have any knowledge that that Coinbase is changing their practices but it works very well for Coinbase and I'm sort of discouraged to see some of these companies deciding to go to a hybrid or fully return to office status. But obviously, that's their decision. And the people that are making that are thinking that it's in their best interest. I just don't know how much input they're getting from a voice of someone with a person with a disability.

Laurie: One other point is it expands the talent pool that employers can recruit from. They're not limited to just their area or just the people who can come into the office, but it really broadens that talent pool and once again, enables them to bring a more diverse workforce into their organization.

Ronza: So I'll say that, you know, in the government workforce, we have seen this switch, right? So prior to the pandemic, there were some people that were working remotely, but not very many because the perception was, no, no, no, we can't do this work remote in a remote way. We need to serve the people, the public, etc. And then the pandemic happened and bam, we have to work remotely in order to serve the people. And then everything was moving along. And I think that was really the renaissance for the disability community and government. And then government started shifting back to more in-person presence and more and more in-person presence. And the thought was, well, if you need to work from home, you can request a reasonable accommodation. And while that's true, it can be very isolating. If we're not building work, community. In a way that's hybrid or in a way that is inclusive of those that are working from home for whatever reason, then we are excluding those people. And so giving them the ability to work from home as a reasonable accommodation, if that's the solution, it can't be the only solution because what it does is it creates a different expectation and standard and isolation. And all these people with a disability are over here and everyone else is over here. And so I think employers need to really be thinking mindfully about what a hybrid work environment looks like and how to ensure inclusion for those who, for whatever reason, are working from home all or much of the time. And we can do it. We have done it. We've been very creative in the last five years. But I think we're just not thinking about it. We're letting the economic and other considerations and, you know, the ease. My favorite phrase that people give me was, well, we need people in the building because of line of sight supervision. And I always say, well, I'm a manager and I'm blind. So line of sight supervision doesn't do anything for me. Are you saying I'm not as good of a manager as you? And then, you know, they don't mean it that way, but that's how it comes off. And that's really how they're thinking. They're thinking they have to be in my space for me to effectively manage them, which we have proven doesn't have to be the case. In fact, we can be very effective as if not more productive with people in their own comfortable environment.

Kevin: Ronza, you expressed that better than I could ever have done. I think that's a really important aspect of remote work. It could not put anyone at a disadvantage or be isolating. With the last couple minutes we have left, I'd just like to hear from everyone about where we have come from and what you'd like to see in the future, some progress we've made, and where you think we still need to improve. So Nick, if you'd like to talk a little bit about that.

Nicholas: Yeah, I'll say I can recall an instance about 12, 13 years ago, maybe, where I was interested in a summer internship with a law firm. And I noticed they had a diversity recruitment event, something like that. And they were looking for women and ethnically diverse or persons of color to attend. And I recall thinking to myself, well, I am a white male, but if they're looking for diverse candidates, I would assume that they would be interested in a person with a disability. So I emailed the firm's event organizer and I sort of posed the question of, can I attend? And of course the answer was yes, but it really goes to show where we were 12 to 14 years ago. And we may still be there in terms of what diversity is and or how law firms specifically view diversity. It may just be that they focus on these two categories. And that is a fine thing. It's just not an inclusive thing. I sort of commend the efforts. And I think we've gone farther than that over the past 12 to 14 years. But if we want to create an inclusive industry, doing so in an exclusive manner is not going to get us there. And I would encourage firms in their recruitment efforts to think about all of the minority groups or underrepresented groups in this industry and make intentional efforts to be inclusive for all of them.

Kevin: Thank you, Nick. Ronza, would you like to add?

Ronza: Sure, I 100% agree. I think that it's not just in the legal profession, it's in a lot of professions that the focus on diversity has been on race and gender and, you know, the SOGI areas. And there hasn't been as much advancement with disability, but this is certainly an opportunity. The American Bar Association currently has a campaign called the Be Counted Campaign for lawyers specifically and those in the legal profession who do have disabilities who can, you know, confidentially essentially be counted as a member of the disability community so that we can get a better number of who in fact is in this profession because we know it's not half a percent. You know, we know it's more than that. And we need to eliminate the stigma in this and every profession for those that are comfortable, psychologically safe, identifying as people with disabilities, even if it's anonymized, to be able to do so. I am optimistic in terms of where we're headed. I think the effort that we've put forward as a disability community and nothing about us without us has really tremendously borne some fruit. And I think though there's work to do, I think we've come a long way. I think that the ADA regulations on Title II that were the Department of Justice released are going to be a game changer. I think that when the Title III regulations are released, whenever that is, it's going to be another huge game changer. I think that Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act is very, very much in need of a refresh and some updates. And when that happens, and I know there's some effort in Congress already, that's going to help. And I think some of the fundamental civil rights laws and protections in states and in the federal sector are going to continue this progress. But those are just the underpinning. It's the attitudes of people. It's listening to a podcast like this and learning about people you didn't think about before or aspects you didn't think about before, and then becoming a good ally to those communities. If you are in the community and feel comfortable speaking up with your lived experience, that's going to be a game changer too. 25% of this country. That's who we are. And so everybody knows somebody. Everybody has a family member who is a person with a disability who've experienced some of these challenges. Listen to their stories. Ask about their stories. Educate yourself and become a good ally so that the next generation has an easier time. That's what I'm excited about because I see it happening much more often. And I think it will continue to happen in this generation and the ones to come.

Kevin: Thank you so much. Laurie, how about you? what do you see in the future?

Laurie: Well, I think these are all such great points. And I'm going to go back to Nick's example. You know, I think historically DE&I has included, you know, a lot of minority groups except the disability community. And more and more, as I'm speaking with, you know, our enterprise customers, they're starting to add accessibility into that equation and really target disability hiring and bringing disabled talent into their pipelines. A lot of organizations are creating neurodiversity centers of excellence and neurodiversity hiring programs to specifically target that part of the population. So like Ronza said, I'm encouraged and I'm seeing this become a much higher priority for our enterprise customers. And again, to echo what she just said, I think the more we talk about it, the more we have podcasts and people listen to podcasts, the more comfortable and confident we get. I think we don't talk about accessibility because we're uncomfortable talking about disability, because people are afraid they're going to say the wrong thing. And at some point, we are all going to say the wrong thing, and that's okay. It's a learning opportunity for all of us. So again, thank you for the opportunity for us to come together today and talk about this really, really important topic.

Kevin: Well, I just want to say very heartfelt thanks to all of you, Laurie, Ronza, and Nick for all of your insights today, for your time, and for the lessons you've shared with us. I think people will really get a lot out of this. And for our listeners, thank you for joining us for Inclusivity Included, and please stay tuned for future episodes. Thanks, everyone.

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In this episode, we highlight the achievements of the Leadership Institute for Women of Color Attorneys (LIWOCA). Reed Smith partner Kendra Perkins Norwood is joined by LIWOCA’s founder, Marian Cover Dockery, J.D., and vice president, Philippa Ellis, J.D., to discuss their efforts to support women of color in overcoming barriers within the legal profession. Marian shares insights into the challenges faced by women of color attorneys and the transformative impact LIWOCA has had over its 20-year history. From offering scholarships and hosting national conferences to fostering mentorship and professional growth, LIWOCA remains a beacon of empowerment and continues to drive change in the legal community.

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Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

Kendra: Hello, I am Kendra Perkins Norwood, a government contracts partner at Reed Smith LLP based in Washington, D.C., and I am elated to welcome you to this very special episode of the Inclusivity Included podcast. So this is a special series of Inclusivity Included, and it's dedicated to an organization that is very near and dear to my heart called the Leadership Institute for Women of Color Attorneys, otherwise known as LIWOCA. So Reed Smith was very gracious in agreeing to host and sponsor this LIWOCA series of Inclusivity Included. And as a Reed Smith partner and a member of the LIWOCA Board of Trustees, I could not be more proud to be a part of bringing this podcast to life. So thank you very much to Reed Smith for their generous support. Now, many of you may be wondering exactly what is LIWOCA. So it is an organization whose mission is to help women of color attorneys in law firms and corporate legal departments, develop skills to become leaders in the legal profession. LIWOCA is also dedicated to assisting law firms and corporations with retaining and promoting women of color attorneys. And last but not least, the organization is dedicated to fueling the pipeline of women of color attorneys through law school scholarships. Today, for our inaugural episode, we are so fortunate to have as our guests LIWOCA’s founder, Marian Cover Dockery, as well as a longtime LIWOCA member, Philippa Ellis. So I would like to welcome you both to the podcast. We're so excited to have you here, and I will just turn the mic over to you for you two to get started.

Philippa: Thank you, Kendra. It is quite an honor to have this time with you, Marian, as CEO of Leadership Institute for Women of Color Attorneys. And I am excited to talk to you about your role with starting Leadership Institute for Women of Color Attorneys. I'll call it LIWOCA. You know, LIWOCA has awarded over $300,000 in scholarships to deserving law students, hosted 20 national networking conferences for women of color attorneys from across the nation. And the organization has provided a platform for not only professional networking, but also professional development and mentorship connections. So as we're approaching a big number, 20th anniversary, coming up on the April 23rd through 24th conference in 2025, Marian, take us back to the moment in time when you initially had the idea to launch LIWOCA.

Marian: Thank you. And I just want to say before I launch into that, I want to thank Reed Smith on behalf of LIWOCA for underwriting this and Kendra Norwood, partner at Reed Smith, and Rachel Patterson of ORC who facilitated this podcast. Let me go back to the American Bar Association conference in Chicago, which was 20 years ago, the Commission on Women in the Profession were holding a session, and the session focused on a report, a riveting report called Visible Invisibility. That report chronicled the and detailed the sexual harassment, sexual discrimination, racial discrimination, and disrespect that women of color all across the nation were experiencing in law firms. So after that report was read, a colleague of mine, Julia Doolin, and I went back to Atlanta and decided that we could do something about this. So my idea was to have an annual conference, bringing all of these talented women into one space and giving them support through sessions, panel discussions, also just keynote speakers who could impart their knowledge and advice regarding becoming successful in law firms. We had to figure out, first of all, how we were going to put this on because we had to have money. So luckily, I had two contacts who were CEOs. One who I'd worked with on the Pace Academy board, the CEO of Rooms to Go, and another who was the CEO of Darden Restaurants, who I'd met through one of my good friends. He was her brother-in-law. And I just sent both of them emails and told them what trying to do. And both sent big checks. And after that, we were on our way because posting those two companies as sponsors. All the Atlanta firms and other firms and companies followed. To put the program together, I just called friends and associates and really calls her friends and associates to work or serve on panels and to serve as keynote speakers. We had two keynote speakers that year. Chief Justice Leah Sears, who was the first African American to serve on the Georgia Supreme Court, and the youngest woman ever to serve on a state Supreme Court, and Judge Glenda Hatchett, the TV personality who was the former juvenile court judge. And we had a Fulton County. And we just had two great speakers. Glenda auctioned off one of her shoes, which launched an auction that we have an auction even today. But it's not her shoe. It's a quilt. We auction off quilts every year that O.V. Brantley, the former Fulton County attorney and DeKalb County attorney, donates to us every year. And that's how we got started. And we did that for two years, we were the Leadership Academy, and then we reincorporated as the Leadership Institute with a planning committee because it was too much work for a couple of people. And so here we are today.

Philippa: And 20 years later, Marian, you know, thinking about what you mentioned about Justice Sears being a first, you yourself have, you know, a checklist of firsts. You were the first woman and first diverse attorney in the legal department at FedEx. You were also the first African-American woman to serve in an executive management position at BP Oil. And those are just a couple of roles you held during your journey to serving as CEO of LIWOCA and at the same time you have an active labor and employment discrimination and wage and hour claims practice. You've practiced for 40 years and just looking at your trajectory and your journey in the legal profession, have you been able or do you feel you've been able to impart that type of support and meet your goals for the organization, as you mentioned, with a goal of supporting diverse women lawyers?

Marian: Absolutely. One of my goals for the annual conference was to bring experienced senior attorneys into a room with attorneys starting out who could impart their knowledge, their expertise, how to navigate racism and sexual harassment in the workplace without derailing your career. I've wanted more experienced attorneys to interface with the younger attorneys to give them informal mentoring. And we've done that. We've done that through just informally, but also we had some what we call speed mentoring sessions throughout the years. But more importantly, I don't think of it as a conference. I thought of it as an experience. It was so uplifting having all these wonderful, accomplished women in one room who were excited to see each other because so many of these women, as I was, are the only ones in their firm, maybe in their law firm, but maybe not in their section if they were in big law. Many women were unhappy with big law, and the study showed, Invisible Invisibility, showed that women of color were leaving the legal profession because they were so disillusioned and so disappointed and unhappy. But one of the goals was to present to them alternatives to working in big law. You could go to a smaller or mid-sized firm and be happier. You could go perhaps in-house or work in the government or work in nonprofits, but don't give up the practice of law because the social implications for that were just huge. And we put so many resources, money and time into going through law school and passing the bar and our hopes and dreams to give up the practice of law just because of bad experience at one firm was just something we didn't want people to consider.

Philippa: You know, Marian, you also, and just kind of thinking about all of the mentorship relationships that have been sparked from the LIWOCA conferences and all of the connections, you know, the legacy of LIWOCA is one of support. Sisterhood, professional sisterhood, and, you know, also the scholarships that have been provided to law students. Can you talk a little bit about how you decided to provide that support for law students, aspiring lawyers?

Marian: We decided to provide scholarships for lawless students, but that was only after we knew financially we could do so. We were a startup organization, and it was important for us to conserve our funds. So the idea for scholarships actually was Julia, who left the organization. And when we got to that point, I think it was maybe our third conference or maybe it was our second conference, we were able to offer some money. But running a business, you know, you want to have money in reserve. We were able to do that, but also what you were saying about the mentoring and support, the environment for leadership is one of support. It is one where people feel comfortable enough to walk up to you and say, at least many have just come up to me and ask a question, and they may have a problem. And I don't think all conferences create that atmosphere. I don't think all conferences create that environment where you feel that comfort level. So for me, I just felt so blessed to be able to meet women from all over the United States, women of color from all of the United States, who were successful, who were committed to their careers, and committed to reaching back and providing advice to younger attorneys who were starting their careers. Throughout sessions, I think we have been able to give support as well. It's important for our attorneys to take care of their physical health, their emotional health. I believe at that first conference, we had one young lady who was obviously suffering from depression. We need to learn how to manage our finances because many start with law firms making lots of money and they don't know how to manage it. And then if they get cut and they have to go to a job paying them less, they are faced with financial challenges. So that first conference, we had someone from one of the big financial firms give a presentation on that. And we have done that almost every year thereafter, how to invest in your retirement, how to have a rainy day fund, you know, live a little below your means. And once you get to the point where you have your savings and you can pay all your bills, we want you to start investing your money in addition to retirement for a rainy day.

Philippa: And those goals you've talked about have, you know, just as a conference attendee at that first conference, I remember learning so much that, you know, so many tools to place in my toolkit. And I know that others that I've heard over the years, how many other attendees say pretty much their cup is full when they attend a conference and they leave ready to tackle the profession, ready to tackle, you know, everything that all of the challenges that are placed before them, you know, in their in this legal profession. And just want to say to you, Marian, I agree with you that your goals have been met and just as someone who has attended every conference. And I'd like to hear from you on what you've had such wonderful conferences and I agree that they are truly an experience. So looking back, can you share some of the most memorable moments for you as the founder and CEO of LIWOCA, just reflecting over the past 20 years?

Marian: Oh, there's so many. One was the networking reception that LexisNexis sponsored. We had several of those receptions where we sat down at tables with our hors d'oeuvres and drinks and wrapped. Each person was asked to bring a book, age appropriate for a young woman, 10 to 14, 10 to 13 years old, and write a little note in the cover of the book. LexisNexis provided the gift wrap and the tape and the scissors. But while we were wrapping, and people wrapped more than one or two books, because LexisNexis also provided some extra books for people who may have forgotten to bring some. And while we were sitting there wrapping all those books, and we wrapped over 300 books that were donated to the Coretta Scott King Academy, and to Girls, Inc. But while we were wrapping those books, we also had conversations with attendees. We met attendees, we networked, and it was a true networking event. And it was fun. And we were at the same time doing something, you know, for charity. And then also, I remember some of our great speakers, the Honorable Vanessa Gilmore, who was the federal district judge at that time for the Southern District of Texas. She was so engaging and so funny, we couldn't get people out of the lunchroom. They continued asking questions. We were ringing the bell. I was trying to usher people out. And we were 30 minutes behind our next session. She was just that fantastic. Michele Coleman Mayes. She was the general counsel of Allstate. And she brought her mentee on the stage. And they engaged in a conversation. And she was really her sponsor. But that conversation was in a format that she created. It wasn't our idea, but it was a big hit because the attendees listening to that conversation were able to walk away with some ideas from that conversation. Also, Sandra Leung, who was the executive vice president and general counsel for Bristol Myers Squibb, she was just fantastic. I think everyone enjoyed her speech. She just gave so much good advice and talked about her career trajectory. And, of course, our first conference was actually my favorite conference because it was probably because it was the first and was like, oh, my God, it's a success, able to do this. It happened. Starting anything from scratch is hard work. And when you say, don't say you Marianne, but it was after, you know, that second year, it was a planning committee. And a lot of people, including you, contributed to making those conferences a success. There's no way year after year I could have done that by myself. Although I was conference president and conference chair for 10 years. And, you know, that is a heavy, that's a heavy burden to carry, but it was a labor of love. So those are some of the highlights of the conference and just mingling with people and meeting new people. I feel so fortunate to have met women of color attorneys from all over the country who I never would have met. And also a lot in Georgia. I never would have met you. Because we work in our silos unless we go to your reception or national conference and that's usually going to you're usually going to gravitate to those sessions in your specialty it's hard to meet new people so those are some of the the highlight for me.

Philippa: You know, LIWOCA has been so successful over these past 20 years. There's a steady flow of lawyers wanting to get involved with planning and those who attend. What else is there for Marian Cover Dockery to do? What do you envision as next steps for LIWOCA? What's on the horizon?

Marian: Well, one of the initiatives we've already started, and that's to have regional events. We had our first in Santa Monica this summer. Teresa Becerra, who's a partner at Spencer Fane, connected with me through one of our attendees, Rachel Patterson, who I guess she said, how can we do this? And I said, you tell me what you want me when you want to do it and I'll be there. And another attorney in Philadelphia, likewise, wants to have a networking reception or a reception actually to introduce LIWOCA to attorneys and partners who are unaware of the organization to help our organization grow. So in Santa Monica, there were eight to 10 attorneys, women of color. None of them had heard of LIWOCA. All of them were excited about it. All of them wanted to come next year and hopefully, you know, bring an associate from their firm. So I would like to see us grow, but I don't, you know, it's really not my decision. We have a board now. We have a planning committee. We were an executive committee. Personally, I don't want us to grow where we've got thousands of people if that were ever possible. I like the idea of having a manageable group of people because I think that the level of comfort for many of the attorneys who aren't real gregarious and outgoing to just approach someone and ask them for advice, I think it increases with a smaller, more comfortable number of attendees. I also would like to see us create a job board so that people know of job opportunities in the legal profession. I would also like a newsletter that would give the attendees an opportunity to submit articles that perhaps they have written or already published to help, you know, get the word out that, and also that's helpful for them if they are trying to develop business. So among our group of attendees, we have so many who are representing corporations like you, law firm, and someone may see an article and be impressed with it, and that might be an opportunity for the person who wrote the article for a future job opportunity. So those are some of the things I would like to see. This podcast is great. More marketing opportunities to get the word out about our organization. There's so much room for, you know, several of these types of organizations You cannot have too many And even though there are not a lot of women of color attorneys We are scattered all over the United States. And there is a critical mass that needs to be served. And just let me just say this, that you were talking about my past. My first job, legal job, was in a law firm where it was as a law clerk. And I was so disillusioned working in that job because one of the partners came on to me and I quit. And it was a small firm. It wasn't like it was a big firm and I could avoid this guy. And so when I heard that report, I understood how many of those women felt who left their law practice. Of course, I was just clerking in a law firm a second year, so that's not the same as having a permanent job where you're depending on that salary. But just think about, I mean, you know, I thought about that. I said, how horrible, all your hopes and dreams and your excitement and enthusiasm, you're going to practice law, you pass the bar, you're entering this firm, and you're faced with all these obstacles. So I think back 40-plus years when that happened, when I was in law school, and to think that it's still going on now is very disconcerting. But I believe that women are smarter now. They can be given tools and advice as to how to circumvent that. And, of course, we have sexual harassment laws. And, you know, most lawyers aren't going to sue a firm, but they have options. They have options to work in other places that are more friendly for women and that are really focused on promoting and elevating women.

Philippa: Definitely, the LIWOCA does serve as a place where women of lawyers can convene and share their journey, you know, obstacles, share their successes, you know, meet, find mentors and become mentors. I mean, you have just really filled an unmet need and so glad you attended that American Bar Association meeting where you learned of the Visible Invisibility Study. And, you know, as we close, you know, what would be your message to any woman of color or any supporter or ally who is contemplating getting involved with LIWOCA or attending a conference? What would be your message to them or what guidance would you provide?

Marian: Well, I would tell them to go to our website, leadingwomanofcolor.org, and register for our next conference and tell their friends about it. I would also say if you've already attended a conference and you'd like to get involved, email our administrator at info@leadingwomanofcolor.org. Sue Ann Daniel will put you in touch with whoever is the president at that time. This year, our president is Gillian Crowl. So, you know, there's always room for help. And if you don't have time to work on a planning committee as a member, because it is a lot of work, we don't want to sugarcoat it. It's a lot of work. You can't practice law and then be involved in 10 other things and then this. Be smart about how you want to contribute. You can contribute to LIWOCA, as I said, by donating, sending an article to us, and, you know, we'll put it in a newsletter or sending your job openings, and we'll put it on a job board. That is the advice I would give to anyone who's interested. And then when they come to the conference, I would seek out a planning committee member and ask them what was involved. But don't get involved just to put it on your resume. You have to be committed because it is a time commitment. It's work. It's work. And let me just add this. It's a lot less work now that we have an administrator because we didn't always have an administrator. And our administrator is fantastic because she's also technologically adapted to doing everything. She has skills that we appreciate. And she is organized and she's worked on these conferences enough to know what has to be done.

Philippa: Well, Marian, as we close, I would like to repeat that email is info@leadingwomenofcolor.org. Marian Cover Dockery, founder and CEO of LIWOCA, thank you so much for your commitment to improving the profession, for helping others, for providing encouragement, support, financial support even for the law school scholars. Thank you for your legacy of excellence. Just thank you.

Marian: Well, thank you, Philippa, and thank you for all that you have done over the years to help make the organization a success as our vice chair.

Kendra: Wow, what a fantastic first episode of our podcast, and how amazing has it been to hear from both of you about all these wonderful memories of such a tremendous organization and one that I'm very, very proud to be affiliated with. So thank you both for your time, for all your efforts over the years, and we look forward to seeing another set of special guests on the very next episode of Inclusivity Included, the LIWOCA edition. Thanks so much.

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In this episode, we spotlight members of Reed Smith’s UNIDOS business inclusion group for Latin/Latinx attorneys and staff. Join DEI talent development supervisor Bareeq Barqawi as she moderates an insightful conversation with senior associate Daniel Avila, senior paralegal Kathy Puente-Ladisa, and associate Isabella Lorduy. They share their unique career journeys, how their Latin/Latinx identity has influenced their professional experiences, and the powerful role that UNIDOS has played in fostering community and support within the firm.

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Bareeq: Welcome everyone to another episode of Inclusivity Included, Reed Smith's DEI podcast series, where we dive into the experiences, stories, and insights of our diverse firm members, clients, community members, and allies. I'm Bareeq Barqawi, Reed Smith's DEI Talent Development Supervisor, and today I'm thrilled to be joined by three distinguished members of our UNIDOS Business Inclusion Group for Latin and Latinx attorneys and staff, Danny Avila, Kathy Puente-Ladisa, and Isabella Lorduy. So Danny, Kathy, Isabella, could you each briefly introduce yourselves to our listeners and tell us about your current roles at Reed Smith. Danny, I will start with you.

Daniel: Perfect. Thank you so much, Bareeq. So I'm based out of the Houston office of Reed Smith. I'm part of Reed Smith's international arbitration team and the complex disputes teams. I'm currently the global chair for UNIDOS, our Hispanic Latinx business inclusion Group, as well as the head of our pro bono for our Houston office.

Bareeq: Thank you, Danny. And Kathy?

Kathy: Hi, everyone. Thank you, Bareeq, so much for having me. My name is Kathy Puente Larisa, and I am originally from Quito, Ecuador. I joined Reed Smith over 10 years ago, starting as a paralegal for the transportation group. However, I just recently transitioned into a newly created role as the industry group administrator for the transportation industry group. It's a bit of a hybrid role. And I am also the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion staff liaison for the New York office.

Bareeq: Fantastic. Thank you. And Isabella?

Isabella: Hello, everyone. I am Isabella Lorduy. I am originally from Colombia, and I am an associate at Reed Smith, where I'm part of both the Energy and Natural Resources group, focusing on international arbitration cases. And I'm also part of the Latin American business team. And And I'm also a member of the UNIDOS group here at Reed Smith.

Bareeq: Wonderful. Thank you so much for your introductions. It's always inspiring to hear about the variety of roles within our firm. So let's dive into what brought you here. I'm really inspired to learn more about your stories and inspired to learn what made you pursue a career in law or the legal industry, specifically maybe in your current role, and how did that lead you to Reed Smith specifically? I'm actually going to start with you, Isabella.

Isabella: So from a very young age, I've always been passionate about international politics and relations. And when I discovered the world of international law, particularly arbitration, it truly clicked for me. It's a field where I get to do what I love, which is interacting with diverse cultures, languages, backgrounds, and even different laws. So I think there are three key moments in my journey that led me to where I am today and being at Reed Smith. First, pursuing a career in international law through law school in Colombia, and then finding great mentors who not only guided me in law, but also taught me important life lessons. And then doing my LLM at NYU, passing the bar and transitioning into the US legal market. I thought that being a Latino was kind of a handicap or a difficulty in the American market. But when I discovered Reed Smith and found it as a place where I could leverage my civil law background, but also my common law knowledge and my diverse Latina background and everything that I have learned before coming to Reed Smith, I thought it was the right place, especially in the Latin American business team. So that's kind of the story of why I am here today.

Bareeq: That's so interesting, Isabella. Thank you so much for sharing. I love to hear about how you thought it would be maybe something of a hindrance, but actually your Latin identity ended up being something of a strength for you. That's great. And let's go to Kathy. What about you? How did you find your way to read Smith?

Kathy: So my career started right after I graduated from John Jay College. I always found law to be so fascinating, but my original career path was to join the NYPD. While I was in the process of going through the program, my path took a very fascinating turn when I was introduced to the world of law firms, and I was given the opportunity to work at Holland & Knight as a paralegal in the aircraft finance group. I found the work to be interesting, and I knew that that was going to be the kind of work that was like a great fit for me. And I then joined Watson Farley as a corporate and shipping finance paralegal. And I built a really great connections there. So all those experiences ultimately led me to the transportation group here at Reed Smith, when they were just starting to expand the transportation group in the New York office. And there was a great need for a paralegal support. So that's how I got my start here at Reed Smith.

Bareeq: I love that insight, Kathy. Thank you so much for sharing. And Danny, what about you? Did you have similar experiences or was your path different?

Daniel: I guess there's two different points here. The first, the path to law. And the second one is to Reed Smith, which I think deserves a little bit of separation. For law, my mom worked for United Blood Services her entire career, which is now called Vitalant. It's one of the biggest nonprofit blood banks in the country. She was the regional president for that company. That company supplies blood to hospitals and helps get donations. Blood donations throughout the communities and make sure that there's blood on the shelves so we don't have to scramble to try to get blood in a case of emergency, say of a car accident or something else, which is the case in several countries. In several countries, if your uncle or your parent or somebody is hurt or needs blood, you literally have to call siblings and family members to donate blood. Here in the U.S., we have great companies like Vitalant who make sure that there's blood on the shelves in case of these emergencies. So growing up, I would see how much my mom benefited from helping the community out. But more importantly, I would see her company being sued for something very trivial, like say you got a bruise when you're donating or say something else, right? And as a child, it made me very angry and I wanted to defend them. So as a child, I said, I want to be a lawyer for these companies that are helping our communities. And now full circle Vitalant is a client of mine and I was able to assist them in a dispute in Texas. It was really incredible to see that full circle as a child and now being able to help by talent, which was my dream. To Reed Smith, I think, is even is another more. It goes back to Reed Smith's values and their dedication and attention to diversity. When I was going through law school application or law firm applications in law school, I looked for firms that really had a focus in diversity initiatives, who put their money where their mouth is. And it wasn't just lip service. And Reed Smith did that. And when I was in law school, I applied for a diversity scholarship through Reed Smith, and I was very fortunate to get it. And Reed Smith not only gave me a position through the diversity scholarship, but paid for my 3L in law school, which was amazing given that I was working during law school. So it was through Reed Smith's diversity initiatives that actually got me in the door at Reed Smith and what's kept me here so many years.

Bareeq: That's fantastic and incredibly inspiring. I love those full circle moments that you're having. So thank you all for sharing your experiences. It's clear that each of you has had a unique path that led you to Reed Smith. Now I'd love to hear a bit more about your career journeys. Was there a key moment or decision in your career that shaped where you are today? Feel free to share any specific challenges or obstacles you've overcome in your time. And Danny, I'm actually going to start with you and go the other way around.

Daniel: Absolutely. I think one of the obstacles I had is I wanted to do international law, but my profile was very Texas-specific. I went to undergrad and law school in Texas. So I wanted to have a more diverse international profile. So what I did in law school was I applied and worked at a law firm in Bogota, Colombia. And that experience exposed me to how work is done in Latin America, working in the Spanish language. And it just kind of opened up the door to everything I do now, which is Latin American arbitration disputes and work in Latin America. So I think that was probably my biggest obstacle to overcome was to how do I create a more international profile? And yeah, I guess that's what I've overcome.

Bareeq: I love that. Thank you so much. Isabella, what about you?

Isabella: I can't think of a specific moment that really challenged me, but I guess my answer to this would be being constantly exposed to situations that I am really scared of and doing it anyways. I remember during law school, I was the youngest participant of the ELSA Moot Court competition, which was basically a cross-border litigation moot court. And I was really scared everyone was very senior, about to start their jobs at really big law firms. But I did it anyways. And it really shaped my career and who I know and my network today. And then after that, just going into the LLM and not being scared of taking the hardest classes and speaking with my accent in these very difficult situations. And constantly being exposed of being criticized or having it wrong the first time but then doing it anyways because I know I'll get it somehow, I think it has shaped my career and put me where I am today. Just the fact that I applied to Reed Smith with a lot of doubts and fears and that I got over that fear and being accepted into this great firm has been just an example of how being exposed to those fears always gets me to good places.

Bareeq: Thank you so much for sharing that. And, you know, it's interesting. It's a vulnerable thing to share, but we've actually talked about it in other podcasts where, you know, when you have an accent or something that identifies you as someone that might not be from here and how that might come with some unconscious bias on other people's parts. But I love the idea of you did it and you scared anyway, which is a quote I always live by as well. So I love that level of vulnerability to share and overcome that. So thank you.

Isabella: Thank you.

Bareeq: And Kathy?

Kathy: So overcoming specific challenges, I think that being a Latina, a minority woman, for me, particularly in the maritime industry, has been challenging because it's very much a male-dominated industry. I have to say what has helped me overcome those challenges has been having great mentors, having great supporters who truly value the work and dedication and who encourage your growth in your career. So I think those have been the things that have helped me during my challenges.

Bareeq: Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing. So hearing about these pivotal moments is really insightful, especially for our listeners. And I think it gives great insight to the people that they work alongside. And now I'd love to explore how your Latin / Latinx identity has shaped your experiences in the workplace. So I'm going to start with you, Kathy. How has your Latin / Latinx identity influenced your professional experiences? And can you talk about how it has impacted your work at Reed Smith?

Kathy: Sure. My Latinidad has inspired me. I have to say that in our culture, we tend to be resilient and warm people, and those are very powerful traits. I love that in our culture, we blend strength and passion, and facing challenges head on and coming out stronger always speaks volumes. My experiences taught me to be adaptable, especially in the law firm industry. You have to be resourceful, always turning challenges into opportunities. And that's what I've seen me doing here. And I've been given the opportunity here at Reed Smith. So, you know, you grow and you innovate.

Bareeq: I love that. I always think of the word grit. Like, I feel like if you overcome some challenges along the way, you develop this sense of resilience and grit where things don't phase you as much as they once did. As Isabella was talking about some of the challenges as well, you kind of develop this strength over time as well. I love that. And Danny, over to you next.

Daniel: So I think how my Latinx or Latin identity influenced my professional experiences has been through being able to work in the Spanish language and having an understanding of the Spanish culture, or I guess cultures in language speaking countries. I would say that it's impacted my work at Reed Smith because I have developed, I guess I would say that I've always wanted to use my Hispanic heritage as a value add, not just a checkbox or anything like that. I wanted it to be how can I improve? How can I provide value at Reed Smith? How can I provide value to our clients having Hispanic background, being able to speak Spanish. And how that's developed, I would say, is being able to develop business in Latin America, being able to work on cases where there may be Spanish aspects or Spanish or cultures from Latin America. I think it's been a value add in that sense. Every time, at least in my younger years, or my first years at Reed Smith, I was one of few that even spoke Spanish. So it was very, very great for internal business development to be able to get every single case that came in that had some sort of Spanish aspect to it or was in Latin America. And now Reed Smith has done a great job of recruiting great people like Isabella and other Spanish speaking lawyers that are that now we have that value add across the board and various offices. So that's how I would say it's influenced my professional experiences.

Bareeq: I love that. Thank you so much, Danny. And Isabella, what about you?

Isabella: I think I totally agree with Danny on this. I think the more I own my Latin background, the more I take advantage of it. Definitely working at Reed Smith and understanding the Latin American business interactions, the political complexities of the countries, how the judiciary systems work within Latin America has definitely helped on the work we do a Reed Smith and really having this global perspective and approach to the cases has been great. And I'm constantly looking for the opportunities to leverage this knowledge because it's not only about the legal knowledge, which is, of course, crucial, but it's also about understanding the complexities of these Latin American countries, which are way different from what we're used to here in the U.S. And I think it's beautiful to connect both legal systems and, of course, cultures.

Bareeq: Absolutely. And so many people you probably interact with, whether it's at networking functions or different clients, prospective clients, I'm sure that comes into play. And like Danny said, I love the value add. You didn't want it to be just a checkbox. It was something that added value. Thank you so much, all of you, for sharing those personal reflections. And now I'm going to shift to your involvement with UNIDOS. So how has being a part of the UNIDOS community supported you in your journey at Reed Smith? And why do you think groups like this are so important? I'm going to start with you, Isabella.

Isabella: I think it has been great to be part of UNIDOS because it has created this sense of community and being part in a deeper level with like a Latino group within the firm. I think from the moment I started at Reed Smith, I was welcomed by the UNIDOS community. I felt other people with accents and we could share different stories about the Latino American community. So I think it has been great to have this sense of belonging even more to the firm just through UNIDOS. I think the initiatives have been great. I remember in the Houston office, we've always had, and also thanks to Danny, amazing events with tacos and chismecitos and these great initiatives that just expose, of course, the Latin American culture in a great sense, but also make you, as I said at the beginning of this intervention, feeling that you belong into the Reed Smith Latino community.

Bareeq: I love that. What about you, Kathy? How has your time at UNIDOS been?

Kathy: I have to say, like Isabella, it's been a great experience. Joining UNIDOS has provided an invaluable support through shared experiences, building a network, a space where you can meet people that think like you, that share similar backgrounds. And really, I think inclusion groups like UNIDOS are very important because they promote diversity. They offer mentorship. They create an inclusive environment where everybody can thrive. And they also help amplify voices and drive positive change within the firm. So it's been really a great experience.

Bareeq: I love that, especially when you talked about driving positive change and Isabella talking about feeling a sense of belonging and feeling seen. Wonderful. What about you, Danny?

Daniel: Yeah, I think I think I'd have to echo everything that was already said. I think the biggest thing that UNIDOS has done for me is just, you know, there it's a very like a collaborative firm, but it's a firm that has your back. And in big, huge corporations and big firms like this, you can feel maybe isolated if you don't have people that look like you or identify like you and have your similar backgrounds. And having these business inclusion groups helps you not only, like, say you're in an office that only has one Hispanic or Latino / Latinx person in the office. Well, you can still collaborate with someone that's in New Jersey or in Chicago. So it makes Reed Smith really be able to use their global platform and make it smaller as far as like being able to meet with other people. Now, I have cases with UNIDOS folks in different offices that have brought me onto their teams, even though I'm not in their office, just having that experience with UNIDOS. And I think another big part of UNIDOS that I've liked is having someone to be kind of a cheerleader for you when it comes to promotions, when it comes to just engagement within the firm. UNIDOS, I feel, does a great job of highlighting all our accomplishments. You know, what have we been doing in the community? What have we been doing as lawyers? So I think it's been an amazing journey here in Reed Smith doing that.

Bareeq: Thank you for sharing, Danny. You brought up such a great point, which is making a community, you know, when you have over 3,000 members at the firm, it's hard to create that sense of community when you're scattered all over the states and over different countries. And so for need those to be able to create that for you all. And so it's so heartwarming to hear. So the importance of community within the workplace, as we talked about, is such a powerful takeaway. And as we wrap up, let's talk about offering maybe some advice to the next generation. To wrap up, what advice would you offer to younger professionals from diverse backgrounds who are considering a career in law or similar roles at a firm like Reed Smith? And I will actually start with you, Danny.

Daniel: I would say embrace your heritage. Embrace your Hispanic or other diverse background that you have and figure out how it can be of value at and make you more marketable and valuable to your team. I've pushed that since I was going through law school. I wanted to make sure that how can I provide this value add? How can I develop business that maybe wasn't there to develop because there were these obstacles of language barriers or culture barriers? So embracing your heritage, being proud of your heritage, and seeing how it can be a value add and make you more marketable.

Bareeq: I love that. Thank you. And Isabella?

Isabella: I believe that it's kind of a twofold approach. First, I would say to absorb everything you can from your mentors. And in this sense, find people that you admire both professionally and personally and learn by mimicking their best qualities. But at the same time, discover what sets you apart, what makes your style kind of unique and embrace it fully. As Danny was saying, I think that leveraging that to stand out, it's a great strategy. In my case, I used my Spanish, my understanding of the legal systems in Latin America, my approach to the clients. And I think that has helped me to still find my style because, of course, I'm a young practitioner myself, but I am learning day by day that owning that Latino heritage has been great for me.

Bareeq: Wonderful. Thank you, Isabella. And Kathy?

Kathy: I have to agree with both Danny and Isabella. Definitely embrace your heritage. And for me, I have to say, sometimes life happens and paths change. And that's perfectly fine. The important thing is here to seek out for mentors and build networks like UNIDOS, because those connections really are golden. For me, I have to say mentors have played a huge role in my life. They've been instrumental in shaping my journey. And I would also have to say to people to stay resilient, stay curious, never shy away from asking questions or even taking risks.

Bareeq: Thank you so much. That is wonderful. I think people are really going to, that's going to hit home for a lot of people. So I want to first thank you all so much for sharing your journeys with us today and for joining the podcast. Your stories are not only inspiring, but also show the value of community and support within the firm. And to our listeners, we hope you've enjoyed this episode of Inclusivity Included. Stay tuned for more conversations highlighting the diverse voices that make up Reed Smith and make us such a dynamic and inclusive place to work. Thank you for tuning in and thank you for joining and catch you next time.

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Learn about the history, purpose and work of the Hispanic National Bar Association’s Health & Life Sciences section, as shared by its co-chairs, Gelvina Rodriguez Stevenson, general counsel at the Wistar Institute and Mildred Segura, litigation partner at Reed Smith. The discussion will be moderated by Anna Lozoya from Sentara Health.

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Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included, Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

Anna: Welcome back to Inclusivity Included. And today's episode is in partnership with the Hispanic National Bar Association. And today we'll be learning about the Health and Life Sciences section, along with co-chairs Gelvina Rodriguez-Stevenson and Mildred Segura. Gelvina Rodriguez is the General Counsel and Corporate Secretary at Wistar Institution, an international biomedical institute. Gelvina's career spans various sectors of the healthcare industry, including hospitals, academic medical centers, and pharmaceutical companies in government. Gelvina serves as the co-chair of the Hispanic National Bar Association's Health and Life Sciences Section and as a board member of the American Health Law Association. Mildred Segura is a litigation partner at Reed Smith LLP, a full-service global law firm. She is based in Los Angeles and is a member of Reed Smith's Life Sciences Health and Industry Group, specializing in complex products liability litigation, matters focused on medical device and pharmaceutical litigation in state and federal courts across the United States. Well, Mildred and Gelvina, excited to have you here so we can learn more about the Health and Life Sciences section of HNBA. Gelvina, can you give the audience a brief history of what was the inspiration to create the section and a brief overview of the history of the section?

Gelvina: Yeah, great, Anna. Thank you. Thank you for that that introduction for putting together this session. Very happy to talk about the health and life sciences section of the HNBA. So we started this section of the HNBA years ago. And, you know, really the idea came when I had started my first in-house job, and it just happened to be in the health sector. It was at an academic medical college. And, you know, I got there. I was like, oh, I don't know anything about health law. So let me, you know, look for mentors. And I've been fortunate through my career to always be able to find, you know, wonderful mentors through the HNBA and, you know, LaLSA, when in law school. And I started looking around to find other attorneys who were in this sector and really couldn't find anyone. I looked around, you know, my, the legal department where I was, you know, other organizations and just really couldn't find any mentors, role models to figure out how to navigate this area. So, you know, having always been active with the HNBA, you know, doing law school and having served as a regional president for the HNBA, I knew that there were very active sections within the HNBA in other areas, business law, labor and employment, employment, compliance. And I thought, gosh, it'd be great if there were a health law section where I could meet other Latino and Latina lawyers working in this space and kind of learn how it works. So I proposed to leadership at the HNBA the idea of forming this section. They thought it was a great idea, and it was formed. So then at that point, sections formed, and we had to build the community. So basically, me and our co-chair reached out to people we knew who were in you know, pharmaceutical device companies, hospitals, and invited them to join. And then also when you're part of the HNBA, you can check off what section you're interested in joining. So we had members join that way. And, you know, over the years, it's grown to be a really wonderful network of Latino and Latino lawyers across the country who are either working in healthcare and life sciences or interested in it. And it really has become, you know, that mentoring, you know group that what didn't exist years ago so really really excited to you know have that come to fruition have it become what it's become.

Anna: That sounds like really great work and it sounds like we needed that and you recognized that was something we needed so good work there and and for contributing that.

Gelvina: yeah and so wonderful that the HNBA was just so open and willing to you know jump on a new idea and move it forward so that's always wonderful.

Anna: Yeah yeah definitely HNBA is It's big about innovating. And as we grow as a legal community as well, expanding to meet the needs of the members. But I'm sure Mildred, as it sounds from Gelvina, that this is growing and growing. What do you find to be the most rewarding and most challenging aspects of co-chairing this vastly growing and expanding section here?

Mildred: That's a great question, Anna. And I've been co-chair, Gelvina invited me to serve in that position maybe three, four years ago now, Gelvina, maybe, right? And prior to that, there were other co-chairs. But I know Gelvina has been there since inception, as she just described. And I would say, you know, during my tenure these last couple of years, I would say the most rewarding aspect of co-chairing the section has been the opportunity to make a tangible impact on our community, which is health and life sciences, lawyers, policymakers, students, right? People who are interested in maybe getting into this space or maybe don't even have a clue what the space really is. And I've had the privilege of working with really, you know, brilliant people like Gelvina, like yourself, Anna, and others that are in our section and learning just how vast this practice area really is, right, of health and life sciences and how much it encompasses. Purposes and um and it's nice as Gelvina said you know it's a place of like-minded people doing you know they're in different practices but under the same umbrella and we're all our goal is the same right to advance health care and life sciences while ensuring that our voices are heard in these critical areas whether it's representing our clients you know in big law or in public interest or in the government and so wherever you are it's it's a nice sort of place to come together and be be able to showcase, you know, what's going on in your practice or in this area. And it's a really collaborative spirit as well, where people bring ideas. You know, if someone comes to us and say, hey, I have an idea for a webinar that I want to put on, focused on health and life sciences, it's great, right? And we're learning as we go, too, because I'm a litigator. And so there may be ideas and trends that I'm not even aware of. So it's a really great way to stay abreast of what's going on in this space as well. And Gelvina mentioned mentoring. And so we do have students that are members. version. I would say that's the other rewarding aspect of this is the ability to mentor young attorneys is incredibly fulfilling, right? And we put on a CLE panel presentation at one of our corporate council conferences for the HNBA, which was focused on careers in life sciences and healthcare, because a lot of students have no clue, you know, well, what does that mean? You know, what kind of careers do you have within that space? And there was a panel of litigators, government attorneys, policymakers. Gelvina moderated that panel. I was on it as well. And it was great to see the type of questions that we were getting from these up-and-coming, soon-to-be lawyers. And on the flip side, you asked me what's been the most challenging. I would say is balancing the diverse interests of our members within the section, right? Because like I said, that I'm a litigator, Gelvina's in-house, we have people in government, you know, all across the board in transactional spaces. And so it's really, you know, trying to cater to our members, ensuring that we are responsive to their needs and what they're interested in. And so we try and cover a broad range of topics to ensure that we provide value to our members, which requires, you know, careful planning, constant communication. But these challenges also present opportunities for growth and innovation. Like I said, as a litigator, I'm learning a lot about other aspects of health and life sciences beyond what my firm offers, obviously, which also does a little bit of everything within the life sciences space. So that's what I would say have been the most rewarding and challenging aspects of being co-chair of the section.

Anna: Oh, that's a lot. But it sounds like you and Gelvina have a good handle of that and having such a wide spectrum of individuals from law students to seasoned attorneys. And it sounds like your panel regarding careers in health and life sciences really try to hold in on the great plethora of opportunities for someone who's interested in our great section, our section that we love.

Mildred: That's exactly right.

Anna: From this section's name, health and life sciences, Gelvina, who do you think should join this section? And like, what are the benefits of joining HNBA's Health and Life Sciences section?

Gelvina: Yep. So in terms of who should join, I think, you know, Mildred touched on this a bit. And I think she went over sort of the diversity of this field, right, and the breadth of who is a healthcare lawyer, who is a life sciences lawyer. And it's really anyone who's like, you know, knee deep in that space. Like you're on a hospital attorney or someone at a pharmaceutical company in healthcare and life sciences, or it could be someone just sort of interested in maybe exploring that space. Or it could be someone who's a litigator and they happen to have a case that involves two healthcare-related companies. They want to, you know, learn more about this space and how it works or just, you know, interact with people working in this space. It could be, you know, anyone from like the knee-deep healthcare life sciences lawyers to people who are just tangentially involved. And, you know, again, the spectrum there is hospital attorneys, pharmaceutical device company attorneys and other legal professionals, folks working in health tech, AI, which is huge in health care, health insurance companies. PBMs, pharmacies, labs, you know, government, AG offices do lots of the, you know, credentialing and licensing for health care providers. It's, you know, we cover topics in reproductive health, public health. We have lots of members who are working in the antitrust space. There's lots of activity and healthcare entities related to antitrust. So, you know, as you can see, public policy, Mildred mentioned that. And really just in terms of, you know, you asked about the benefits of joining. So, again, for the folks who are knee deep, like we get to, you know, get on these calls and say, you know, this is this topic that we're starting to see, you know, more of in our space. What are you all seeing? And just kind of share ideas and approaches. And, you know, for those who are not knee deep learning about the area, you know, and for students, you know, Mildred mentioned we have lots of students who join. And I think historically, healthcare and life sciences hasn't been like one of those key areas that you focus on in law school. It's not like, you know, securities, which is kind of all over. And so it's a new area. So we can provide, you know, mentoring and exposure to different career opportunities in this space, which is very exciting and growing. And we also coordinate with other organizations like the American Health Law Association and build liaisons there and share speaking opportunities that we're aware of that folks may want to be interested in, job opportunities. So I could go on and on forever about all the benefits of joining this section, but I'll pause there.

Anna: Thank you. I can definitely say I have benefited both from being a section member, from Gelvina's mentorship, which is a benefit. Mildred mentioned that it's having had the opportunity to present at the American Health Lawyers Association and also learning. I know we last year had someone present on privacy and AI and how that affects our our industry. And that was really great and insightful. I was like driving, but trying to take notes. And I'm like, I need to pay attention. And so it was just really enthralled and learned a lot. And I was able to take that back into my actual practice and still have. And it's been very impactful. So definitely a great benefit. And so really, really appreciative of the section doing that. And I have a question for both of you. Can each of you share how the section has influenced your practice and your personal life?

Gelvina: Yeah. You know, I think, like you said, just being able to meet other attorneys in this space like you and Mildred and, you know, work together. Yeah. And just finding that sense of community and others who've, you know, maybe are like in a field that I've been interested in or, and it's really just invigorating, right? Once you start looking for other Latino and Latina lawyers working in this space, we find each other and it's very inspiring. So, for example, we did a podcast series through the section where we interviewed Latino and Latina leaders in health care and life sciences. We, you know, for example, Lisa Pino, who was the director of the Office for Civil Rights within HHS, which is the office that enforces HIPAA, a really important position. So just being able to, you know, connect with her and, you know, expose our membership to people like her and really exciting positions like that. And, you know, she provided mentorship and advice on that call. Like, how do you get to these positions if you're interested? How do you navigate these positions as a Latina? So, you know, just being able to meet people and interact with people in this space has just been inspiring and made me feel very optimistic and supported in my career. So that's really been, you know, that's from a professional and personal, again, from a personal perspective, meeting other professionals who are working in similar space. You have so much in common and you can share so much. You become, you know, colleagues and friends, which is just wonderful. Yeah.

Mildred: Yeah, and I would echo a lot of what Gelvina just said in terms of just on a, in my practice alone, right, having immersed myself into the section, taken on the role of co-chair, having to learn sort of, okay, who's our membership? What are they interested in? But more than that really was the friendships that I've been able to build. Obviously, your network expands, right, which is always great. And just deepening my own understanding of health and life sciences. Like I said, I come from the litigation side of life sciences. So to be able to speak with you, Anna, about risk management issues that impact hospitals, for instance, right? And sort of those folks that are in that space is important because it helps inform perhaps how I may be counseling my clients on my end when it comes to the litigation side. So there's this cross-pollination. I think that's very beneficial and is one of the things that has greatly influenced my practice by virtue of serving as co-chair. And on a personal level, I would say that it's just reinforced my commitment to advocating for our community. It's nice, yes, we have a place of like-minded folks who can come together, share ideas, trends, and practices that cut across the health and life sciences space, but also what we do for the larger community. And one thing that HNBA offers is something called Advocacy Day, which is a day where HNBA members, section members can go to Congress, and we have various meetings with congressional representatives on issues of importance to our section. So as a health and life sciences section, we, you know, one issue that came to mind was on mental health, which is a key issue for the Latino community and something that can be, you know, has a lot of, could be taboo and a lot of, you know, people don't want to come forward and say, you know, I'm suffering from mental health and get the care that they need. So to me, that was the first time I participated in that advocacy date program. So to be able and have these meetings with, you know, the congressmen and congresswomen and be able to talk about these issues was really a different experience for me that I had not engaged in before. So I would say, you know, that experiences like that is something that our section offers and that I would recommend to anyone.

Gelvina: Yeah. And just to pick up on that point that Mildred just made, we also work very closely with the leadership of the health and life sciences section of the Asian American Bar Association, the South Asian NAPABA, SABA, and the NBA. And especially during the pandemic, we really were coordinating on health equity issues. And we did some publications for the HNBA on health equity to elevate being in a position where we could elevate those important topics. And as lawyers, a resource on how those issues impact our community from a legal perspective has been key. And, you know, to Mildred's point, being able to bring these important topics up at Advocacy Day has been a really important role for this committee.

Anna: Yeah, I think this section is really good at doing that, bringing forward not only our issues and what we need as section members, but also for the community at large. And not just professionally, but also just, you know, the overall Latino, Latina, Hispanic community across the U.S. I know we also have written, Gelvina and I and a few of us others, we wrote an article on how we could give back and give our skill sets since we have such a variety of skills across different spectrums of areas, whether it's helping with wills or sitting on a board. I know Gelvina sits on several boards and giving back in different ways to impact to ensure health care equity within our community and not just out in the sense of professional legal realm. Mildred, can you share any exciting initiatives that the section currently has and any that they might have going on in the future with our listeners?

Mildred: Sure. Good question. So, you know, right now our section is focused on a few key initiatives. One of them is creating more educational resources and webinars that address emerging issues in health and life sciences, particularly those affecting the Hispanic community, obviously, but also other trends that we're seeing that are of interest to our members. And we're also strengthening our mentorship program, aiming to provide guidance and support to the next generation of legal professionals in the field. This year, which kicked off in the fall of 2023, we kicked it off with a social media campaign, right? Because we know the younger generation is on Instagram and what used to be Twitter, so now X. And so HNBA has been really active in engaging with the social media platforms and getting the word out about sections like ours that are offered through the HMBA. So we had a social media campaign that featured myself, Gelvina, and you were part of that as well as our other vice chairs of the section to really get the word out about who we are, what's our mission, what's our purpose, right? We're here to serve you and to get more membership to join the section. So that's been one initiative in terms of just getting the word out. Other initiatives that we've taken on this year have been highlighting select members of our section on topics of interest. And we touched on this already earlier today. You know, we've had people from who are at the top pharma companies present on data privacy issues. We've had people within the medical device industry come and speak to us about what they're seeing relative to AI and life sciences and some of the implications coming out of that, both on the regulatory side and the litigation side, for instance. Instance, we had presentations on the impact of the recent FTC ruling on non-compete agreements, which now we have a federal court, right, who's come out and said, okay, you know, you don't have the authority to do that. So a lot of activity that's relevant to our section across the board, right, no matter whether you're in-house or at a firm or perhaps in government. And another initiative we had was focused on the Supreme Court's decision related to DOBS and reproductive health. And we put on a CLE panel at one of our corporate council conferences for the HNBA focused on sort of sexual and reproductive health post-DOBS, which was well attended and extremely timely just because of all the issues, you know, no matter what side you are on that issue, you know, it's always helpful to bring that to our community and have people, you know, have a discussion and a debate around those issues. More recently, coming up for our annual convention in September, taking place in D.C., we will have a panel focused on GLP-1 pharmaceuticals. It's called GLP-What? Exploring the Weighty Legal Issues of Pharma's Blockbuster Weight Loss Drug, which will feature our very own Anna, who's with us today, along with some other members of our section and the IP section of the HNBA. So we're looking forward to that. And we're busy working on some additional webinars coming up later this year, including one, like I said, on non-compete agreements, as well as because we are in election season, sort of the impact of the elections on health and life sciences. We know there's a lot of impact there and we want to be able to bring that to our members as well. And just getting creative, thinking outside the box. You know, this idea of this podcast, Anna, was yours. I thought, you know, it's a great idea. So initiatives like that, trying to get a little bit more creative in how we can, again, bring our section and the most value to our members as much as we can. And lastly, as Gelvina touched on, we're collaborating with other bar and healthcare-related organizations, such as the American Health Law Association, which you both touched on. And, yeah, so we're trying to do, you know, as much as we can, again, because, you know, we don't get paid for this. We do it because we like it, we want to. And it's, as Gelvina said, very inspiring and invigorating to be doing this work. So really lucky to have the opportunity to do it.

Anna: That's a lot of great work, a lot of great initiatives, and I look forward to that. I hope our listeners join us so you can learn. Even if you don't practice in this area, a lot of that expands and cross-pollinates and touches different aspects of our daily life. Gelvina, so where can people that are interested in learning more about this section and wanting to just find out when is the next podcast or when is the next webinar, where can they find us?

Gelvina: Yep, there's a number of ways. Number one, you can go on HNBA, Hispanic National Bar Association.com. And there's a drop down link to sections and you'll find the health section, health and life sciences section there. You can join that way. Also, as a member, you can join through your membership portal, but also you can join through the section portal. We have a LinkedIn page. It's HNBA Health and Life Sciences. So you can find us on LinkedIn and join that way. And we send out information about our upcoming events and activities via the LinkedIn page. On the LinkedIn page, there's also email addresses where you could email Mildred or me and we'll get you on the listserv. So we send out emails and calendar invites for the meetings. We usually have, as Mildred mentioned, a meeting at the annual conferences for the HNBA. There's two annual conferences a year, one in September and one in March. So we usually have an in-person meeting there. And then we have one to two virtual meetings throughout the year where folks can join. And like Mildred said, we have people present on topics of interest. But also, we start each of those meetings with everyone introducing themselves and where they work or what their interest is. And that's a really great way to get to know the community. So I would encourage folks to get on the LinkedIn page, join via the HNBA.com website, email us if you have any questions and, you know, come attend one of our meetings or activities.

Anna: Great. Thank you for sharing that. I want to thank everyone for joining us today here on Inclusivity Included in our partnership today with the Hispanic National Bar Association Health and Life Sciences section. Thank you, Gelvina and Mildred, taking time out of your busy days as co-chairs and sharing with us your experiences, your contributions, and as well as all the exciting new initiatives and planning that the section has. Please join us next time on our next episode on Inclusivity Included.

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to of particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.

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In this episode, we consider how to be our authentic selves in the workplace. Joining Clare Sutton, Reed Smith’s EMEA DEI coordinator and Multicultural Network (MCN) co-chair, are three of the MCN’s esteemed members: Dashni Khimji, Saiya Guo and Arlington Todman. The team delves into shared experiences and insights on being your true self while remaining professional at work.

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Clare: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Inclusivity Included. My name is Clare Sutton, and I am DEI coordinator for EMEA. I also co-chair ReadSmith's Multicultural Network. Today we have a very special episode discussing authenticity and being your authentic self in the workplace. I'm really excited to be joined by three MCN colleagues, Dashni Khimji, an associate in our real estate group, Saiya Guo, an associate in our global corporate group, and Arlington Todman, a desktop support specialist in our IT team. So thank you to everyone for joining me today. I'd like to ask you one by one to share a little bit about yourselves and your background, starting with Dashni please.

Dashni: Hi Clare thanks for having me as always. I joined Reed Smith back in 2015 as a paralegal. I think it was in the real estate group. It feels like it was such a long time ago now and I've since actually qualified into the group. It's definitely been a bit of a journey for me and so I'm actually looking forward to having some real and raw discussions questions on authenticity.

Clare: Okay, and Arlington?

Arlington: Good morning, everyone. Morning, Clare. Thanks for having me as well. I'm in IT. I've joined Reed Smith in 2023. I love it here. I've been doing computer for 35 years, and I just like the chance to, you know, share some of my technical knowledge with the staff and the people and everyone listening.

Clare: Thank you, Arlington. And Saiya.

Saiya: Hi everybody, I'm Saiya. I'm originally from New Zealand and I joined Reed Smith around the end of ’22, start of ’23, so it's been about 18 months now.

Clare: Brilliant, thank you all for sharing. So let's get started. So we often show the more professional side of our personalities, a more polished version of ourselves. Instead of bringing our whole selves to work, we bring a different version. So Arlington, what does it mean to you to bring your true self to work?

Arlington: Well, it means to be able to, when I come to work, to speak to my colleagues as the same way I would speak to my family in a nice manner. Sometimes, you know, we get upset, but I let that, I try to let that fly. And what I do is I take the instances that I have with the team members here and the users and I actually just try to make it work and seem like it's friendly, common, and normal. As far as my original self, I try to be soft-spoken, don't get too angry, and I just let it flow.

Clare: Thank you. And Saiya?

Saiya: I think it means when you think about bringing your true self to work, it means that you're not putting on a different persona or that you don't feel like you need to be an entirely different person for work. I think you can just feel a bit more relaxed that you can feel yourself when you're at work.

Dashni: Yeah, I sort of echo that as well. So to me, bringing your true self to work, you know, it goes beyond just trying to be your best in a professional environment. It's all about staying true to who you are and openly sharing all of your strengths and that that's what makes you who you are but I think a huge part of bringing your true self to work requires a lot of self-discovery and accepting who you actually are as a person so I echo what's already been said by Saiya and Arlington so if you're not bringing your true self to work you're almost masking who you are which can lead to a lot of confusion and wasted energy so I think bringing your true self to work provides a means to really succeed. It allows you to reach your true potential and feel safe enough to really be challenged. And I guess bouncing off from that, Clare, I actually have a question for you. What do you feel are the benefits of bringing your whole self to work and why does that matter?

Clare: Oh, great question, Dashni. Thank you. So for me, there are several benefits to being your authentic self, especially in the workplace. place. And I'll just run through the top six that kind of work for me. So trust and respect. And that's like trusting the judgments and the decisions that you make, because that means others will trust and respect you in return because you're standing by your actual values and your beliefs. Integrity is another big one you know just doing the right thing um so you never have to second guess yourself then the ability to deal with problems is uh having the strength and the openness to deal with issues quickly instead of procrastinating you know i kind of find that once i start doing that i don't actually focus on what it is that i want to say or you know how i want to project myself realizing your potential is another big one so for me that's trusting yourself and doing what you know is right instead of letting others dictate what's best for you having confidence and self-esteem which means that you can trust yourself to make the right decisions when you're being genuine and doing the right thing which in turn leads on to a higher self-confidence and higher self-esteem and then lastly just having less stress. Just imagine the happiness and the self-respect you'd feel every day if you said what you meant and stay true to yourself being authentic to yourself is a lot less stressful than being someone you're not. And that kind of leads me me back to what you guys were saying previously so for me bringing my true self to work means leveraging my unique perspectives and experiences for my personal and professional growth. It's about being brave enough to be yourself and align who I am and by that I mean my personality my values and my emotions what I do my competencies and what I do well and then what I project so how I show myself to others that's very very important to me and I don't think that means that you have have to give everyone you know. Your personal details your family life you know what you do every weekend but. I do think it means that you behave in the same way as. You do at home so you don't create a different persona when you're in the office you should always be the same in the office as you are at home. So authenticity to me means being genuine and real but in the workplace we often feel like we have to hide our true selves or we tell ourselves that we need to act a certain way or say things to colleagues so that we fit in, even if it goes against how we actually do feel. So being someone that you're not is effectively telling yourself that who you really are isn't okay, which can make us feel lonely or disconnected from others.

Dashni: Yeah, just to weigh in there. I think I read recently about this concept of masking. So many people put on this mask at work, don't they? And they try and put on this persona of an acceptable character. And it's mostly to just try and fit in. and I remember during my training contract and actually you know shortly after when I qualified, I felt as though I couldn't be myself if I wanted to succeed in this legal world so this this actually took a huge toll on me where I actually became quite reserved I was constantly comparing myself to others and I felt this great deal of anxiety and actually in turn this actually halted my performance at work and it became a barrier. And it was actually a barrier that I created myself. So I think you know when it comes to being your authentic self it's all about self discovery you know that that's a huge thing we're all constantly learning and constantly working out how to unmask but when I discovered who I was and I started putting all of my energy into that instead I ended up you know bringing my true self to work and it almost felt like a great deal of relief. I became slightly more confident and more accepting of feedback and I started to really to excel in my role.

Saiya: No, I think it's true. And I think it goes to that concept of kind of the amount of energy that you would put into masking and also what Clare said about less stress. And I think unless you actually see the difference between when you're doing it and when you're not, you don't realize how much energy that you've actually put into doing it and how much that energy can be used into other things.

Arlington: And going off of what Saiya said, it's the amount of energy that you dedicate to trying to mask and pretend to be someone for everyone else, when in turn, you're not being true to yourself. You're not being authentic. And that, to me, that's difficult. But I try to do my best to be authentic in many given situations.

Clare: Have you kind of come across any situations where you were made to maybe change your natural authenticity and and how did you actually deal with that on the spot? Because sometimes something could come up and you may not actually realize that it's happened and then you walk away and suddenly think oh hold on a minute I've actually changed who I am just to be that other person. Have you ever had any kind of situations like that and what did you do to kind of get past it? How did it make you feel?

Arlington: Well, I have a technician in my office and he's actually been here 25 years. And some of the things that he instructs me about, it sort of gets under my skin because of the way he speaks to people. And whenever I have any interaction with him, I find myself just being absolutely quiet, listening to his instructions and just doing things, whatever he tells me. And I got home this weekend. And I said to myself, wow, whenever I get around him, I just automatically shut down, listen to what he says, do it. And I said, no. So when I changed, I just started listening to him, responding to him, conversing with him. And now all this week, I find myself doing everything that he had suggested that I do, even when he's not around. And I find myself in a better spot for my work that I do. And it's thanks to him a little bit. So I've learned to take his suggestions with ease as opposed to being rubbed the wrong way when he speaks to me and thereby acting a certain way instead of just being my natural self. And it's actually, like I said, it's benefited me a lot. And I have him to thank for that.

Clare: Saiya, did you have any comments?

Saiya: Yes, I think in terms of kind of situations, I suppose it's not so much a specific situation that I'm kind of thinking about. But I think it's a general tendency, right, that if you're, let's say if you're in a group and you happen to be the odd one out or everybody else in the group is, you know, just from, you know, whatever common factor there is in a certain group, I think there's a natural tendency to try to adapt, to try to fit in. And sometimes you don't realize you're doing it consciously. It's almost unconscious. But then something might jolt you out a bit and you realize, hold on, I've actually gradually and gradually just moved so far towards fitting in that I've actually lost track of actually this is not really who I am or I'm more than this aspect of my personality that I show in this group. And you realize you've kind of drifted away from what was in your whole self.

Dashni: Yeah. Yeah, and quite similar, you know, so when I was a paralegal, it's almost like you have this vision of what it's like to be a lawyer. And what you're trying to do is fit into this vision rather than bring your true self. And I think I struggled with that quite a lot, where it was like, it's such a traditional industry, isn't it, where you have to behave and act in a certain way. And that's what the clients expect. And that's almost what's expected of you in the workplace afterwards. And I think it is going back onto that whole concept of unmasking. It's about, you know, believing in who you are, your core values and trying to adjust them to the legal industry and also who the audience is. So, yeah, those are my thoughts on that.

Clare: You're also right. It's so difficult trying to navigate that and, you know, not lose your cool, I guess, but still be happy with the way that you're acting, what you're saying. It's a difficult process a difficult juggling act so i completely agree with what you've all said um so i guess what we're all saying is authenticity at work is facilitated when we share core values with our colleagues you know the more that we embrace our true self is the more our peers will do the same which can create a positive work environment. It's not morally or ethically important but it's practical strategic because it leads to better relationships increased innovation, and more robust and thriving workspaces and communities. So I'd just like to share a quote with you all from Dr. Brené Brown, who is a research professor at the University of Houston. And she states, authenticity is the daily practice of letting go of who we think we're supposed to be and embracing who we are. I believe that authenticity can mean different things to different people. But in general, it refers to the ability to live by our values speaking our truth with assertiveness and developing the courage to allow our true selves to be seen. How do you think people can foster a more authentic and inclusive environment of work? And I'll direct that one to Dashni first.

Dashni: Thanks Clare, for me I think the key lies in really knowing who you are and I you know I've echoed that elsewhere it's almost a journey of self-discovery um which isn't an easy one for anyone really. I guess you must really know who you are. You must learn your own strengths and weaknesses and work out where you actually add value. In a way, it's all about integrating your genuine self with the role that you play at work to create this harmonious and productive environment where you're really able to excel.

Clare: And Arlington, do you have any thoughts?

Arlington: Well, being my authentic self at work, again, I'm in IT. So to me, it's difficult because I don't socialize with a lot of people here at work. We just get up to deal with machines and everything else. So I guess being my authentic self, I just love being able to fix the machines and just chat whenever I can with attorneys, paralegals, and other staff members and try to be realistic as opposed to trying to be someone that I'm not.

Clare: And Saiya?

Saiya: I think it's helped to have lots of role models at work and in the workplace so that you can see that there are different ways of being your authentic self or there are different ways to practice law, to be a leader, all those different kind of things. And I think it's helpful to be able to see that and realize, no, you don't have to mold yourself in one certain way.

Dashni: And I think what I actually quite like now is how diverse most law firms are now becoming. So when you look at a law firm page, you're now seeing all of these faces, faces that look like you, which, you know, 10 to 15 years ago, you didn't usually see. So I kind of echo the role model concept. I think it really helps.

Clare: Yeah, I think business inclusion groups can be very important as well to help you be more authentic. You know, especially if you've got one that, as we all know, if you offer food, everyone's happy. Everyone gets involved.

Dashni: Was that aimed at me?

Clare: Ah slightly you know everyone has fun and it allows you to be more open and honest with the people around you which you know then in turn you know people see that when you're acting like yourself more they probably get to understand you a bit more because you're more open to speaking you know about your backgrounds even down to the foods you eat, your kind of cultures and your traditions and things like that so yeah I agree with all of you with what you're saying there. So while it's important to be authentic at work, some organizations do have different cultures when it comes to how much personal expression is encouraged or accepted at work. Some companies may ask for a formal and reserved atmosphere, whereas others encourage employees to bring their whole selves to work. For me, balancing authenticity and professionalism at work is important. No matter what your culture, I do think we should maintain professionalism, respect the company's policies and align our actions with job responsibilities. Authenticity should be exercised with discretion respecting personal and professional boundaries and being mindful of our colleagues privacy but I do think that showing up totally unfiltered could go down downhill very quickly but also if you hide your true self you might miss out on fostering the kind of relationships that can fulfill your life and your career so how much of ourselves do you think we should really bring?

Arlington: I believe we should at least bring 75% of our whole selves. I believe if we come with less than 75%, we're only giving a percentage of what our job is, what our roles are, what our colleagues are. And then we're just not being who we are or true to ourselves. And again, I usually have a lot to say, but it comes out more in written form. I don't speak as much. That's another thing here. So I'll leave it at that.

Clare: Arlington that's great because you're being your authentic self and that's all we can ask for. Dashni do you have any thoughts on that?

Dashni: I think I do echo what you said you know we're in a professional environment you're you're acting for clients and I think while it's important to sort of foster that and bring out your true self you have to sort of maintain some professional boundaries because I think it's quite a new concept isn't it? And it's quite revolutionary in that sense.

Clare: Saiya?

Saiya: I think the true self, it doesn't have to be a static kind of thing. You can be your true self in different environments. Just because you need to be professional at work doesn't mean that you can't be your true self. I think there's different ways of expressing it. And I think it's about having the freedom or feeling that you have the flexibility to be your own version of what professionalism means within certain boundaries, within certain requirements. I think that it's just the fact that it's not one static fixed very rigid idea of what you need to be at work what you need to be in any certain environment.

Clare: Brilliant thank you and so I'll ask you all what can we do to bring our whole self to work as as a firm as a collective. What do you think we could do to show ourselves more who we are without I guess you know kind of stepping on boundaries?

Dashni: I guess i've sort of echoed it again throughout and that's that's you know to sort of enjoy this this whole self-discovery journey and you know start embracing journaling and start really enjoying to work out who your true self is and i think once you do that um you will start bringing your true self to work.

Arlington: And just be more relaxed around others and and just let's have everyone enjoy our life. Just like Siaya said, it doesn't have to be in one specific dimension. It could just be overall. We could laugh and joke, yet have to maintain a level of professionalism.

Saiya: Maybe some of it comes down to your mindset as well, or it's internally giving yourself permission to bring your whole self to work or your true self to work and just trying that and just seeing what that's like.

Clare: It's just taking, you know, one small step at a time towards a bit of change. I like that idea about mindset. It's very difficult to, you know, keep inside yourself how much. I mean, like for myself, sometimes I struggle. I can give you an example, actually. So I've been in the new office and sitting with a new team now. I'm sitting with people that have never actually worked with me before. So they don't actually know who I am apart from who I normally project. Whereas now they see me more often. So, you know, my personality comes out. I probably laugh a lot more. I can be very loud sometimes when I get very excitable. I've said some really silly things that make me giggle and I've had some very funny looks with my team now so they never knew that about me before but I feel comfortable enough now that I'm in a space where I can do that I'm not going to be judged and and people will laugh along with me. So like on the back of that do you have any tips to be more authentic in the office? Can you think of any way that we can tell our listeners you know how to just not be frightened and to be brave?

Dashni: I guess it's more about recognizing when you're not being real. So stop telling yourselves how we should behave at work and, you know, just start opening up a little.

Saiya: I think it would be just along the lines of what everybody else has similarly said. You know, just kind of being open, giving a go, being brave about being your true self.

Arlington: I have to agree as well. You know, just relax, enjoy yourself and just take things as they come.

Clare: I love that. I love your honesty, all of you. For me, I guess the tips I would give are, they echo, basically. So, you know, working out who your true self is, you know, who you are, who you stand for, what you truly want out of your work life, and reconnecting with what's really important, you know, to ourselves, i.e. our values, our strengths, and our unique value. And recognizing, as Dashni said, when you're not being real, take small steps to open up. I think most importantly is setting clear boundaries, because your values always give clues as to what's important. So we should do what we can to protect those for ourselves, because if we allow behaviors that we deem to be unacceptable to go unchecked, then we're probably giving off a signal to others that their actions are okay. But by calmly and explaining how actions make us feel clarifies what your boundaries are whilst being true to your authentic self. And I think pushing for a broader cultural change because when we feel empowered to share our true selves and opinions at work with no fear of reprimand a culture of psychological safety then occurs and it just means that we all feel happy to open up and just be true. And finally this is to all three of you you've achieved so much in your careers so if you could what piece piece of advice would you give your younger self now that you have further awareness of what authenticity means to you?

Dashni: Yeah I guess I'd probably tell her to stop being afraid that she is good enough and to accept the help like it's okay to accept help sometimes and advice from your mentor's.

Saiya: I would say just relax a lot more. I think we don't realize how many thoughts go into our head about this is what we should do or what we should be. And a lot of those actually don't turn out to be relevant in the long run.

Arlington: I have to agree with both of them. But I would also say just take things as they come, challenge them, accept them, and don't try to push away or hide away from certain situations. Let them come. And just like Saiya said, a lot of those instances that we think about really don't happen and they really take no part anyway. They just take up room in our mentality. That's it.

Clare: Yeah, I kind of agree with you that it takes up a lot of space in the mind and creates a lot of worry and anxiety, which, as you say, probably isn't even there. Usually by the time you've said something to someone, you know, everything's dissipated. You can get on with life again and, you know, everyone's happy and it's all great. I completely agree with everything you've all said. So thank you all so much. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you all today. And thank you again, just for being so honest and truthful with your answers. Thank you, Dashni, Saiya and Arlington for sharing your insights and thoughts with us today. And thank you to our listeners for tuning into our Inclusivity Included podcast. Until the next time, enjoy the rest of your day.

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Reed Smith partner Simone Goligorsky and her father, Yuri Goligorsky, join Reed Smith’s Jewish Inclusion Committee co-chairs Carolyn Rosenberg and Jason Gordon to discuss Yuri’s inspiring story of resilience. Yuri recounts his incredible journey from being born in the harsh conditions of Siberia, escaping to Israel and eventually establishing a remarkable career at the BBC in London.

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In the final episode of our dedicated SAHM podcast miniseries, Gautam Bhattacharyya hosts Reed Smith partners Nav Sahota, Nathan Menon and Sakil Suleman for a conversation on identity and the power of cultural roots in shaping careers. The partners reflect on their South Asian heritage and the significance of South Asian Heritage Month 2024, and offer heartfelt advice to their younger selves and aspiring lawyers.

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Nity Raj, General Counsel and a Director of Brentford Football Club, joins Gautam Bhattacharyya to discuss South Asian Heritage Month. They delve into Nity's career influences, his role at Brentford FC (the Bees), the significance of his South Asian heritage, and the collective steps needed to advance DEI and increase South Asian participation in the highest levels of football and sports.

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Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith Podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

Gautam: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to our special podcast series to celebrate and honor South Asian Heritage Month 2024. And I'm delighted to welcome as our guest on this episode, Nityajit Raj, Nity, who is a director and the general counsel at Brentford Football Club. Hello, Nity.

Nity: Hi Gautam.

Gautam: It's really good to see you again. And we'll obviously, we'll have a, looking forward to a great conversation with you on, I know, topics of immense mutual interest. But before I kick in with my questions, I'll introduce you to our listeners. One of the great things about this podcast is I get to speak to a former colleague of mine from Reed Smith. Nity and I worked together at Reed Smith. He was a solicitor at our firm, practicing in intellectual property and in commercial law. Disputes arising out of those issues. After leaving Reed Smith, he went to AOL, where he held a number of important roles in the legal department. Then he moved on to Smart Odds. And then after his time at Smart Odds, he joined Brentford Football Club and became a director there almost 10 years ago, and has contributed significantly in so many ways to the development of Brentford Football Club. A club very dear to my heart, I must say, because I'm a North West London boy, Nity is a West London boy, and although we were separated geographically by a few miles, Brentford is very dear to both our hearts. And the story of Brentford is in many ways one of the most inspirational stories there can be about a football club, because Brentford, when Nity joined them, was not a Premier League football club. It is now very much an established Premier League football club. And we will talk about that in the course of this podcast. So, Nity, it's just wonderful to have you with us. At Brentford, obviously, you're the General Counsel and you're also on the board. And so you've got some incredible insights. And one of the things that we will touch upon in the course of this discussion, because it is in celebration and in honor of South Asian Heritage Month, is about your role, your views on how much more South Asians can do in the world of sport and in particular football, and a number of things that really resonate with you on the issue of heritage and how important that's been to you, your career, how you look at things, how you look at the future of things. And I'm really looking forward to this conversation. So thank you again, Nity. We'll dive straight in, shall we? Nity: Great. Looking forward to it.

Gautam: Great stuff. I can tell you, I certainly am. So tell us, in terms of your career background, I touched upon that very briefly at the beginning of the podcast in introducing you. But why don't you tell us a little bit about, I think, two things I'd like to ask you about, Nity. First of all, what drove your interest in law in the first place? And secondly, in the course of your career so far, who have been your greatest mentors and inspirations?

Nity: Well, when I was at school, I had no idea what I wanted to do around the time of A-levels and then when you have to select a course for university. And um my brother's contemporaries were all in the early part of their courses and he was friends with a lot of law students then and and and so I had some people to talk to about uh about their uh their careers and so I talked to them and they that was interesting. But the reality was, the thing that most interested me was watching a program called LA Law, and very glamorous, exciting TV show, which not entirely accurate description of what it was like to work in a law firm in London. So I didn't necessarily have a, uh, the, the introduction that I got wasn't necessarily a realistic one, but, but, you know, law, it seemed to me was something which was important, um, something which meant you got involved in everything and, you know, I'm a nosy person. I'm curious. And, you know, one thing I have learned is that the lawyers always get involved, you You know, somehow we have to be around to help do anything in business and in life. And so it suited me very well. Although, as I say, my introduction to it wasn't necessarily realistic. But I think my brother's friends managed to persuade me that it was a good course to do. And, you know, it wasn't going to hurt to have a law degree under my belt. And to some extent, you kind of end up on an escalator, don't you, where you do a law degree and, you know, then you're presented with all the legal professional routes to training. So unless you get off the escalator, then, you know, you end up in a legal career. So I suppose it's also about just not getting off. I like the sound of it and I carried on.

Gautam: Well, thank goodness you did get on that escalator, Nity. And in the course of your journey on that escalator, have there been any particular people who've been really inspirational to you, who've mentored you, who you've sought to follow in their footsteps of, so to speak?

Nity: Well, I mean, from a personal perspective, the person that had the most influence on my life as a young person was my dad. My mum died when I was 10 so he was a single parent for our formative years and. He was a shift worker he'd come to this country in the in the 60s and you know his aim was to to make a better life for himself. And his family and and I and I think. He did that and he instilled in us a work ethic myself and my brother hard work academic excellence like many Asian and families was the kind of um the driver of his ambitions for us and and so yeah from a relatively early age that's you know I understood that uh you know we would have to do well and work hard and uh and that's what he wanted for us so I think that was a good starting point and his um inspiration was was a big part of that. I have an older brother he's three three and a half years older than me he was academically very very strong um you know top student and uh I was a little bit less diligent should we say but you know watching him and his uh journey meant that I was you know I had a good role model for achievement and you know he he uh quite early on had got a. Job worked hard you know university and uh and so that felt like the natural next step I didn't I wasn't successful in finding a a training contract early on lots of law students in their seconds or even their third years apply and get uh training contracts so that they can then be funded through the legal practice courses and and I didn't get that second or third year I didn't get a summer. Placement in my summer first year applied to increasing numbers and firms I had a very clear idea that I was interested in technology and and I wanted to do IP and so I applied to a lot of city firms to do that and just really struggled I didn't know quite what I was doing wrong but just didn't get this didn't get anywhere and I think part of it was simply that that was a period when it was, you know, incredibly competitive to, to get, to get seen. And so my first break was. To take a pause from the sort of usual route. I did a master's in intellectual property. And having done that, I was a paralegal, took on the job as a paralegal at Burberry, so in the rag trade, in their intellectual property department and did trademarks for them. And that was a first step into in-house before I'd even qualified. And the general counsel there was a guy called Robin Lim, an in-house solicitor in East Avon, a man of East Avon heritage who was a really brilliant in-house lawyer. And he really understood his business. And that was my first experience and understanding of how to be an in-house lawyer was from somebody who spent the time to learn what his clients were doing completely independently of the legal work. Just to understand how do you make a pair of trousers what do you what do you need what do you do to achieve the objectives of the company and he was very integrated and involved in that business again not just as a lawyer but as a as an exec and as a trusted member of the team and that was my first really good example of how to conduct myself in a business and and even before qualification just to see what it was like to work in an office to instruct lawyers I was on the other side um burberry at the time used PaySense so I had a partner on speed dial that I could ring and get to do uh infringement cases and it and I felt immediately like I owned my work and so felt some responsibility straight away because um Robin was willing to give me some of my own cases to to deal with and that was it for me I was I was hooked because I felt involved I felt part of something um I liked the company that I was working for I was really interested to talk to interesting people I went to talk to. Tailors and designers and you know about what they were doing and how they did it retail people and everything that they told me and everything they taught me was really interesting because they were interested in it so as a result I had a genuinely non-legal introduction to the world of business and and that was the best thing for me that was the best thing I needed. So Robin was certainly the first work mentor that I had. And then after that, what was then Richard's Butler, now Reed Smith, became my training contract. And through my career, I had a number of seats as a trainee, including MTV, which is another in-house stint. So I worked for Svenja Geissmar, who was the general counsel there at MTV, who is now general counsel at Arsenal. So I get to work with her again. And so it's funny how, you know, your mentors come back into your life and your career that, you know, it's a small world and the legal world is an even smaller one. And so, you know, good people meet good people. And uh and you know so that's been really really fun and and uh nice to uh to come across her again and so many other senior lawyers at Richard's Butler helped me understand how to be a better a better lawyer so there's almost too many to mention but and the probably the person that had most influence from my perspective were actually the two, um, um, intellectual property partner called David Marchese. He's a really interesting, really intelligent, really academic, really learned lawyer, you know, and everything I wrote got edited and edited and edited and, you know, red lines over everything. But he taught me how to write, taught me how to draft and I'm always incredibly grateful to him. And the other person was Michael Skrein, you know, very well, Gautam. But um Michael had a this extraordinary work ethic and you know he's always in the office late into the evening didn't turn up very early in the morning so if you're a training in this department you kind of ended up burning the candle at both ends but again somebody with this incredible experience and and so I just tried to be in sponge and learn as much as I possibly could and so you know along the way those two and many many others meant that when I was ready to fly the nest and I knew pretty soon that in-house legal was for me I wanted to be part of something it wasn't just a law firm it seemed to me that law firms were unusual businesses and the the normal commercial world was everything else and I wanted to get straight out into that and so So, yeah, I got a brilliant training. The best bit of advice Michael ever gave me was he had been to an Indian restaurant and he'd had some issue with the service and had left and gone to the Indian restaurant next door. And when he told the owner at the second place and how this guy in the second place looked after everybody and it got everything done quickly and you know they were in a rush to get to the airport or whatever and so so you know it's just amazing how you managed to get it in a way that these this other guy didn't and the restaurateur said ‘customer is customer’ and that kind of phrase really stuck with me that if you want to give good service customer is customer customer's always is right just make them happy whether it's your internal client your external client it's your in-house who who are you looking after and they become the center of your world make make them happy and life gets a lot easier so that has served me very well.

Gautam: Well, you've had some great advice over the years, Nity, I can tell you and yuu put it into motion, I can tell you. But yeah, I still have very fond memories of you at the firm. Time is always one of these things that precludes going into too much of the old days and making us too dewy-eyed about the old days. But yeah, some great mentors, David and Michael, brilliant people. And the advice customer is customer. It's ubiquitous. It's universal. Let's turn now to your association with Brentford Football Club, the Bees, as they are affectionately known, a club very dear, as I said, to you and me. I'm just very interested if you could tell us a little bit about how your association with Brentford came about, and then a little bit about your role there, because I mentioned in opening that you serve on the board, and you're also general counsel to Brentford Football Club. So tell us a little bit more about that, please.

Nity: Well, I left AOL as General Counsel for International in 2010, and I had led a project to shut down a lot of international offices at the time. So that was quite a tough thing to do. But it was a really good experience to see a business in that phase of its history. And um and it's important to do that properly and right and to see you know to do right by people, so it was really a really good thing to be involved in and although at the time it was very very hard work and especially to to tell you know what was in the end thousands of people, that you know we were shutting something down and and closing up offices all across europe but I needed a break after that, and I decided I wanted to do something completely different because I had a career at AOL, which meant that I had done everything that I'd wanted to do with my in-house career at the time, and, you know, a bigger and bigger team, an international team, done lots of traveling, you know, had a really amazing run of it. And I wanted to do something completely different. And a former colleague at AOL called Phil Wall, who was the head of UK legal for AOL, had gone off to this small sports research company called Smart Odds, which was owned by his best friend from university, Matthew Benham. And Matthew is a genius and a kind of, entrepreneur and you know just a kind of an incredible leader and um with uh with this ability to see the possible where others would imagine the impossible you know so when I joined in 2010 um joined Smart Odds he had this other company called Brentford Football Club which you know at that time just come up from league two so the fourth division of english football pool since 1947 it had mostly been in the third and fourth division and and had one brief borough into the second division 1992-93 I think it was um but yeah for for the vast majority of its modern history it was a club that had struggled financially in the lower divisions And so to imagine the possible Premier League and beyond to probably anybody else would be madness. But Matthew decided that this wasn't just possible, it was actually quite realistic, given the ideas that he had about how things could be done differently and how much difference that could make. And I thought he was mad I i thought he was potentially just a crazy rich man pouring money down the drain but it didn't take long to realize actually he was onto something and um you know to distill it down ultimately in my opinion his method is just about better decision making. Human beings are bad decision makers. And if you can reduce the bias that applies in decision making in so many different ways, human beings will make decisions, in all sorts of bad ways that are measurable and describable, you know, all these different biases is that apply you could take all of those and and work to reduce the bias that applies, um in every way then you can be better and that's what he did in his um in his gambling it's a. Dispassionate gambler he's a an incredibly successful one and then ultimately running owning and running a football club was the same you know at this at its heart the same thing of just working out how decisions were made, where the biases apply, how to reduce them, doing so, and then carrying on, good or bad, successful or unsuccessful, keeping going with the principle, because there's a lot of luck in sport. And sometimes you can do everything right or most things right and still lose. And that's part of the fun, you know, part of the pain of this industry that we work in. But it's also what makes it a bit random. So you have to trust your principles. And that's what he did. And as I said, it didn't take me long to realize actually he’s on something I believe. But I think we can do this too and so he asked me to join the board in 2014 that's when I started getting really involved in in the football club and then from then on it was almost a case of trying to turn what was started off as more like a hobby into a full-time role because it was so much fun to be in sport uh directly that uh yeah pretty soon I was like actually I just want to do this this is too much fun and there wasn't masses of legal at that time 2014 they were promoted to the championship so second division and as a result there was more legal work but still in the second division it's it's not as complex as the premier league premier league is a global product a a massive brand on tv in virtually every country in the on the planet it is you know probably the most successful sports league in in the world and as a result there's a lot of complexity to to running a business and and the legal issues that that result but not so much in the championship and as a result I was involved in stuff beyond just the football so general management and when i first started you know i've done almost everything i'd you know found there were some light bulbs out I went out to the shops bought some light bulbs and put them in because I thought well that needs doing and I could ask someone to do it yeah you know um so things need doing and you do them and um there was an incredible team of people at Brentford and they were all working too hard to achieve as much as they could with a small organization. And so rolling my sleeves up and pitching in and having a go was an opportunity for learning at a level where you could afford to make mistakes because at that level, mistakes were less public because, you know, the whole world wasn't watching in the way that these days now. Now, you know, I see kids in the street wearing Brentford shirts. I see our players on the pitch at major competitions. And, you know, I feel like a great...

Gautam: And scoring amazing penalties without even looking at the ball or the goalkeeper. No, staring at the goalkeeper. Right. Because, you know, actually, just so everyone knows why I'm mentioning this to Nity, Ivan Toney is one of the star players at Brentford. And we're recording this podcast literally on the eve of the European Championship final in Berlin on Sunday the 14th of July in which our beloved England are playing Spain and Ivan Toney scored the most incredible penalty as part of the penalty shootout and he has this technique when he does not look at the ball he just looks at the goalkeeper and he is I think I’m right with me I’m right in saying he's on this on the statistics he's the most successful. penalty taker in the premier league isn't he?

Nity: Yeah I mean I suppose there's lots of different ways you can you can measure success but um yes Ivan has an incredible penalty taking technique and and actually I think Ivan's kind of a good example to lawyers because you know he gives a performance you know having to stand up and do his thing in the way that lawyers will have to do in a meeting or in litigation or whatever you've got to stand up you've got to get it get the job done and you may not get a second chance and so that ability to show such confidence and to to do that without what appears to be without fear is is quite incredible but yeah he's a he's a good example for for everyone who has to do something where you know you don't get a second chance, you've got to stand up and be brilliant. And, and I'm sure he's going to do well on, if he's given a chance on, on Sunday, he'll, he'll do us all proud.

Gautam: Well, he's already made us proud. And I mean, I love the fact that, you know, one thing, and I'm going to turn to a couple of other questions in a second, but I just can't resist saying I love it when players from less fancied clubs do well. Because historically much of the England team has been drawn from quote the big clubs close quote and it's just lovely to see Ivan, Ollie Watkins and other players you know who aren't necessarily and you know Mark Gahee who aren't from the quote fancied clubs you know doing so well for our country so it's just and there's a story in that too Nity as you and I both know because you know we can all dissect into your course after sunday but you know but let me turn to this because the theme of this podcast is obviously to celebrate people like you you know fantastically talented people inspirational people like you who make huge impact here and internationally you know and you are of South Asian heritage. Tell me a little bit about what the importance to you personally is of your heritage and how it drives what you do and how it pushes you to try to be better and better and better.

Nity: I think, as is the experience for many kids from South Asian backgrounds. Doing well academically and working hard at school was something which was very important to my parents and I understood from an early age that I was to do my best to achieve and that was important. So I think that's the first part is that that instilled in me a sense of importance of the responsibility that I had to use the opportunity that I had been given. And so that's the first part. And then in work and in life, that sense of duty and purpose has continued. So, you know, I look at the way that my dad works, that my whole family, you know, applied themselves in life. And, you know, the idea was to do the best for yourself, for your family and your community. And so, you know, that duty, purpose and a sense of community has proved to be a very successful driver for me. So, yeah, it's absolutely part of what I've achieved because it's a kind of driving force very much from my background.

Gautam: Thanks, Nity. I mean, and that really, you know, that really resonates with me because there's, you know, there's so much in common that you and I share on that issue itself. Although, you know, time precludes me and I shouldn't take up time speaking about myself, but because I want to focus on you. And one of the things that I know you and I both share a huge passion for greater diversity, equity and inclusion. And, you know, you are a wonderful flag flier for those principles in what you do. And there's no doubt that you are, if not the most prominent, one of the most prominent people of South Asian heritage in sport in this country and certainly in football in this country. And that's a wonderful thing. I love it. And I love what you're doing and what you and the club are doing because you've got a great focus on that at board level and as a community club. But what more can we do, Nity, just looking at this in terms of How do we get more people of South Asian heritage more involved in football at a high level? One of the things which you and I both know is historically, for years and years and years, South Asian people have been incredibly underrepresented in sport, but focusing on football. How can we do more to actually change that?

Nity: I think it's changing a lot right now. I think the first thing is just to imagine that the talent spreads evenly and opportunities don't. You know, That's just the nature of things. And as I said before, Matthew's kind of guiding principle was to imagine that we're not very good at making decisions that will be biased in some ways.. Prejudice is going to affect people's decision making. If we can reduce that bias then a consequence of that is likely to be increased diversity. And it doesn't just mean diversity of background it means diversity of thought it means that having people who think differently will make an organization more successful because if you if you have everyone is going to think the same thing you know 20 people in the team and you add a 21st person and they think exactly the same as everyone else you cannot possibly imagine that you're going to come up with more creative solution and it doesn't matter whether oxford and cambridge educated and uh whatever racial cultural background that they have the same thing is going to apply and and so diversity of thought and diversity of background it seems to me as one way in which organizations can achieve more by being more of an innovative by having a different approach to to solutions and so yeah that's that's been I think a force for good for us and and that will be how other organizations improve, it won't be because they have diversity as an objective. They will want to be better and work out, how do we do that? And diversity of background, diversity of experience, diversity of ways of thinking is one way of achieving that. So where you have these anomalies like South Asians not being involved in sport or football, the question you have to ask yourself is, is that because there's some inherent lack of interest or talent or whatever? Or is it actually because people don't recognise the opportunities or may not have been given them? And either way, if we can change that, perhaps we can be better.

Gautam: Well, look, Nity, thank you very much. You've been incredibly generous in answering all the questions and in your time. One of the things that we always do, and it's very popular with our listeners in concluding our podcast, is we always like to ask our guests a few light-hearted questions. And this podcast is going to be no exception to that so if I may I’m going to ask you a few sort of quick fire questions which are totally unrelated I think to what you do but uh and I hope you'll find them as entertaining as I always do. So first of all, have you got a favorite album?

Nity: Yeah so probably if I went to my playlist and I looked at historically what gets played most then it's hard rock probably Queen so I think I can't remember which Queen album it is but Don’t Stop Me Now would would be the the track that I have played at my funeral funeral kind of sums me up I think that was that's probably the um yeah the most played album on my playlist.

Gautam: Well great choice I mean Queen's an incredible band, huge musical legacy there. Is there a particularly favorite place that you love to travel to?

Nity: Yeah. So I was lucky enough to go on a cycling tour to California with another lawyer five, seven years ago, something like that. That's probably more than that now. It could be 10 years. And so we did Route 1, which is the coast road between San Francisco and Los Angeles over eight or nine days. Wow. And the people of California were so incredibly friendly, generous and kind that almost every time we stopped our bikes, someone would help us, someone would give us food, water, whatever. And it was just the most wonderful, wonderful time. Yeah every day we had the maddest and most brilliant experiences where you know someone said oh you know you should go and go to this particular campsite on this beach or whatever and you know here's here's a bottle of wine take it with you well you know just extraordinary kindness and generosity of the people of California so it was it was yeah wonderful.

Gautam: Superb superb and then you know just the last thing I want to ask you I mean I could carry on talking to you for a long time with you but circumstances obviously ensure that I can't do that. Football is a huge part of your life is there another sport that you also particularly love apart from football? So unlike almost every South Asian person South Asian heritage in the UK i'm not that into cricket never really was so I don't know why I didn't end up getting, involved but that's that's the one that typically people would will say that they love their cricket whereas for me it was always football or nothing else really I do play a bit of badminton and I do like to run and I'm involved in my local park run and I enjoy that a lot so those those are my things and then cycling and so I will watch the tour a bit and yeah my version of cycling and the professional version is very very different but uh yeah that's That's the other love for me, I think.

Gautam: Superb. Well, look, Nity, thank you very much for doing this podcast. You are someone who's truly inspirational, made huge contributions. You continue to make great contributions in so many ways. And thank you very much for everything you do, for the importance of what you do. And I know our listeners are going to really enjoy listening to what you've said in the course of this podcast. I certainly have. And I know there are going to be lots and lots of people who will give us great feedback about it. So thank you very, very much. And on the eve, essentially, of the final, I know we'll both be wearing our England shirts for certainly by 8 p.m. on Sunday, the 14th of July. So I look forward to seeing you soon, Nity. And again, hugely grateful for you doing this podcast with me.

Nity: Thank you so much. Really greatful for the opportunity.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com and our social media accounts.

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In the first episode of our miniseries of podcasts celebrating South Asian Heritage Month 2024, Gautam Bhattacharyya, chair of Reed Smith’s India Business team, welcomes Yasmin Batliwala MBE, CEO of Advocates for International Development. Together, they explore Yasmin's career path, her mentors and inspirations, her passion for pro bono work and the significance of her Parsi heritage.

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Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith Podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

Gautam: Hello everyone and welcome to another of our Reed Smith podcasts and this one is part of our special mini-series to celebrate and mark South Asian Heritage Month 2024 and I'm overjoyed to have as our podcast today the incredibly impressive Yasmin Batliwala. Hello Yasmin.

Yasmin: Hello Gautam, lovely to be here.

Gautam: It's lovely to have you and I've been really so excited to do this podcast with you. For our listeners, I'm going to introduce Yasmin so you can appreciate just what an amazing person she is. Yasmin is the chief executive of Advocates for International Development, a very prominent pro bono and CSR institution with which Reed Smith has had a very long and happy relationship and association. And we continue to do so. And I've known Yasmin for many, many years. and we've had many a discussion about our shared passion for pro bono work and the importance of lawyers doing pro bono work and the impact that it has. Yasmin is responsible for overseeing the work of A4ID, as I'll call it, and she's held many prominent roles in the public and third sector over her very illustrious career. Apart from pro bono work, her portfolios have included some incredible causes. Those include HIV and AIDS, drug alcohol, dependency, and criminal justice. She has also undertaken work for the UN's Office of Drugs and Crime, and has a great deal of board experience too, having, amongst other things, been on the board of a large NHS trust. Yasmin also, to the extent she has spare time, and I'm stunned she does have spare time, has also served as a magistrate in the Youth and Adult Courts. She's also, as you can imagine, been the recipient of several honors. And amongst those, and there are many of them, she has been awarded the City of London Woman of Achievement for her public service work. And in 2022, Yasmin received an MBE for her work in human rights, the rule of law and international development as part of the Queen's New Year's honors list. So it really is a wonderful privilege to be speaking to you on this podcast, Yasmin, and I'm really looking forward to our discussions. Now, let me start with this as we get into our discussion. Tell us a little bit about your career background. I've already highlighted for our listeners a few of the roles that you've undertaken prior to your current role as chief executive of A4ID. But I wonder whether you could give us a little bit of a background about how you got to your role at A4ID and your career background, which has led up to that.

Yasmin: Thank you very much, Gautam. I'd like to start then by thanking you for inviting me to join in this podcast and for the opportunity to talk about the work of Advocates for International Development, which I know that you know that I'm truly passionate about. So to answer your question about what I was doing prior to A4ID work-wise, before joining A4ID, basically I ran my own consultancy, providing senior level support to the public and non-profit sectors. My work primarily involved problem solving, managing teams, assisting the recruitment of CEOs and other executive positions. And I should say that I thoroughly enjoyed being self-employed as it allowed me to spend quality time with my two young daughters as they were then. And I could work during their nursery hours and resume tasks when they were asleep. And incidentally, I even earned more money than I've ever done since while I was working for myself. Throughout my career, I think you've said, I have worked mainly in the public and non-profit sector. And you've indicated the background work I've done within the drugs field and also in HIV. And I've also served, as you've mentioned, on various boards, including also a university, as well as on police authority, where I briefly held position of chair. I currently chair VIA, formerly known as WDP, which is a leading charity providing drug and alcohol services across the UK. VIA is known for its quality of services and innovative approach. And I like to think that my leadership has played a role in its success. Now, in respect to other things that have brought me to A4ID, I was invited to get involved with A4ID just by chance. Someone suggested that I met the executive director at the time. She and I got on swimmingly and as a consequence of that I started to work with her to look at how we could build the organization so that's really a potted summary of my career to date.

Gautam: Well thank you and it really is I mean you know you've packed a lot in in your wonderful career today and undertaking some amazing work for lots of really important causes and you know I think I think one of the things I just want to step back to is you've had a very impressive career. Of that, there's no doubt. And it's ongoing, right? You're not finished yet. Not by a long way. But we all benefit from mentors and inspirations in the course of our career. And I wonder whether you could share with our listeners some of your biggest career mentors and inspirations so far.

Yasmin: Gautam, I think that's a really difficult question because I have been inspired by so many people over the years. Obviously, those who have supported and encouraged me stand out, ranging from my line managers and peers to various teams that I've worked with, including actually my current team. Indeed, my very first job was doing what was called action research on illicit drug use in SW5, which is Earls Court, and also the West End. Professor Betsy Ettore was my line manager at the time, and she was simply amazing. She encouraged me to think for myself and was always available when I needed her. I was at the time fresh out of university and yet she treated me like an equal and I valued that because she actually listened very carefully to what I had to say and supported my ambition for the study that we were doing. Now coming back to where I am today I suppose I especially want to mention the board of A4ID. Their support has been incredible but it's their pioneering spirit and belief that everything is possible that truly inspires me. They also believe in me personally which has been invaluable and enabled me to push forward with our vision. Roger Leese, the chair of A4ID and a partner at Clifford Chance, has perhaps been a significant inspiration throughout our time working together. We've often solved problems by approaching them from completely different perspectives, and his insights have always been spot on. Indeed, the longer I have known him, the more I've come to respect him. To me, integrity and respect are very important in those that have inspired me. And perhaps the reason I've been working in this role for so long has been mainly because of the individuals that I have been fortunate to come across over the years. Now, I've been particularly impressed by the legal profession's can-do culture and their attitude that everything and anything is possible, which happens also to be my perspective in life. This approach and their understated passion is something I greatly admire. The entire legal pro bono community, from international law firms that we work with, to in-house counsel, the judiciary, paralegals and barristers, demonstrate to me their remarkable dedication. They use their skills and intellect to contribute to the greater good, often without expecting recognition or even a pat on the back. Let me give you an example close to home. Now, you've mentioned just in your start the involvement of Reed Smith. So when I joined A4ID, Reed Smith provided us with the accommodation. At that time, A4ID was a much smaller organization with fewer staff and a smaller turnover. Right. Without Reed Smith's support, I'm not sure A4ID would have thrived. Reed Smith even contributed their staff's time to oversee the development of A4ID at the beginning, not seeking thanks or recognition, just doing what they could to help the cause. If anything was requested from them, they would think about it and come back to us with a solution about how to make it happen. So I, for one, have immense admiration for Reed Smith and the support that the firm has provided ever since our inception in 2006. Many of our law firms have also, as well as corporate partners, have also shown and continue to show some support over the years. They've supported A4ID in its journey and through us have provided expert pro bono legal advice to international development sector and have also donated funds to enable us to exist and to function. And I firmly believe that through the law, we can change the world for the greater good and that lawyers have a key role to play in making this happen. Imagine no other profession is able to achieve this, only the legal profession. What inspiration is that? So to answer your question, I would say I've been most inspired by the legal sector with which I've been fortunate to work with and why I'm still in this role after all these many years.

Gautam: Well, thank you, Yasmin. That was an incredibly impressive set of points. And I just wonder if I could dig into that a little bit. Extremely, there's a lot I could unpack there. But let me focus on what makes pro bono work so important. Now, we all know it's really important. It has real impact. And lawyers are integral to that. And so I wonder whether you could give us your thoughts on just why pro bono work is so important and why law firms and the teamwork that they achieve is so important to make that happen. You mentioned in your answer just now just how unique in many ways the legal profession is to be able to deliver those sorts of services and results. And I certainly know how enriching it's been for me personally to be heavily involved in pro bono work for so many years. But I wonder whether you could share your thoughts on that, please.

Yasmin: Thanks, Gautam. I would say that pro bono work is vital because it allows professionals and the corporates to give back to the community, promoting social justice and addressing systemic inequalities. qualities. By providing free legal services to those who cannot afford them, pro bono work ensures that access to justice is not limited by financial means. This contribution really helps to level the playing field, ensuring that vulnerable and marginalized communities and individuals can defend their rights and receive fair treatment under the law. If you look at CSR for law firms, on the other hand, I think it encompasses a broader range of activities beyond pro bono work, which includes ethical business practices, environmental sustainability and community engagement. Pro Bono also, I would say, demonstrates the company's commitment to operating responsibly and contributing positively to society. These initiatives enhance the company's reputation, build trust with stakeholders, and also we find continually that it can lead to increased employee satisfaction and retention. Through pro bono, law firms and corporates can address various social issues from poverty and education to health and environmental protection. The other thing I think that's really important with regard to pro bono, is teamwork that law firms can do. Teamwork is essential in making pro bono successful because it allows the pooling of resources, expertise and networks. Law firms possess specialized legal knowledge and skills and are crucial for tackling complex legal issues. By collaborating, firms can leverage their collective expertise to provide a comprehensive and effective legal assistance. I think this collaborative approach really does ensure that beneficiaries receive high quality support, which are tailored to their specific needs. Also, teamwork among law firms fosters a culture of shared responsibility and mutual support. And we find that when law firms work together with us on pro bono projects, they can share best practices, learn from each other's experiences, and really develop innovative solutions to very common challenges. This collective effort amplifies the impact of their work, making it possible to address larger and more complex issues than any single firm could or tackle alone. It also, I suppose, fosters a sense of solidarity and purpose within the legal community as a whole. So collaboration enhances the reach and scalability of pro bono. By joining forces, and certainly by joining forces with us, law firms can extend their service to a broader range of beneficiaries and communities. This expanded reach is particularly important in addressing systemic issues that require coordinated efforts across different jurisdictions and different sectors which apply to us at A4ID. Collaborative initiatives can mobilize more resources including funding, personnel, technological tools to support large-scale projects and long-term interventions. In fact, teamwork with law firms also provide opportunities for professional development and capacity building. We find and I find continually that lawyers engaged in pro bono work gain valuable experience and skills to enhance their professional growth. Put simply pro bono work makes you a better lawyer. The reason is obvious through A4ID lawyers are exposed to diverse legal issues and client populations broadening their perspective and very much enriching their practices. Additionally, firms that actively participate in these initiatives can attract and retain talent by demonstrating their commitment to social justice as well as ethical practices. And as I've said already, co-ordinated efforts in pro bono can lead to systemic change by addressing root causes of social issues and advocating for policy reforms, law firms can help to create a more equitable and just society. Collaborative projects that people do with A4ID often involve strategic litigation, legislative advocacy and public education concerns, campaigns that go beyond individual cases to affect broader societal change. This strategic approach maximizes the long-term impact of pro bono. So effective teamwork also ensures that pro bono is sustainable. And by sharing the workload and resources, firms can maintain those long-term communities to these projects. Sustainability, after all, is crucial for achieving lasting impact and ensuring that the beneficiaries receive continuous support. Collaborative efforts help distribute the responsibilities and costs which are associated with these initiatives, making it much easier for firms to sustain their involvement over time. So to conclude, pro bono work is essential promoting social justice, corporate responsibility. Teamwork with law firms is crucial for maximizing the effectiveness and reach and sustainability of these initiatives. And through collaboration, law firms can leverage their collective expertise, resources and networks works to make a significant positive impact on society and advance the cause of justice for all. So in a nutshell, that's what makes pro bono so incredibly important.

Gautam: Thank you, Yasmin. And you know, everything you said there, I was just absorbing and just realizing just how it all aligns with exactly how I see it. Because I can honestly tell you, Yasmin that us and you know we've had many a conversation about what pro bono means to each of us but i know that some of my most satisfying outcomes that i've achieved as a lawyer for clients for for pro bono clients have come from that sort of work it's it's not just about doing big cases as we do and as i as i do for big corporate companies a big industrial groups for governments, etc, etc. That's, of course, very important to the life of a law firm. But a law firm needs to be known for everything it brings. And I can honestly say, and I can't talk about some of these cases, but some of the most important cases I've done have involved taking on the establishment. Establishment for people who would otherwise not have access to law firms what I call big law big law firms and those law firms come together in teams like you say often in conjunction with other law firms and there are a number of examples where Reed Smith has teamed up with other law firms and it's a wonderful thing because the perception is otherwise that law firms are all competitors. They're like boxers in a boxing ring. But we're not actually. That's really a myth. We operate in a marketplace, yes, but on pro bono work, we actually come together in a very productive way. And so, no, thank you for sharing those really, really, really amazing thoughts, because I'm sure our listeners, it'll really resonate with our listeners. So thank you for that, Yasmin. I wonder whether I could just now turn to the question of heritage, because heritage is obviously a very important thing. And this podcast is being recorded and will be published as part of South Asian Heritage Month. And I wonder whether you could just share with us a little bit about what makes your heritage so empowering and so important and uplifting for you.

Yasmin: Well, Gautam, as you know, I'm a Parsi. Parsis originated from ancient Persia and fled to India, I think around the 6th, 7th century to escape religious persecution. Their successful integration and preservation of our culture and religious identity in a foreign land. For me, I think exemplify the resilience and adaptability of the community of Parsis. The religion of the Parsi community is Zoroastrianism, which places its values of saying good thoughts, good words and good deeds and doing good deeds. This provides very much of a strong moral and ethical foundation, promoting a positive and proactive approach to life and encouraging meaningful contributions to society. And despite being a small community, and I do mean small, as a number of Parsis are reducing year on year to the point of extinction, I should say, Parsis have made significant contributions in various fields such as business, science, arts and philanthropy. Indeed, social responsibility and generosity of spirit are highly encouraged within the community. So I suppose my heritage is empowering and uplifting because it connects me to a rich and a diverse cultural tapestry that informs my identity and sense of self. This connection to my roots provides me with a deep understanding of where I come from and the traditions that have shaped my community over generations. The stories, the customs and values that have been passed down to me are a source of pride and strength, offering a foundation upon which I can build my own life and my own aspirations. Considerations this cultural inheritance if you like acts as my guiding light influencing my values behaviors and perspectives cultural heritage has also paid i think a significant role in shaping my world view and moral compass the values and ethics inherited from my cultural background guide me guide my actions and decisions promoting principles such as respect as i've have mentioned before, integrity, but also responsibility. These values are not just abstract concepts. They are lived experiences demonstrated by my family members and the community. This moral grounding is empowering as it provides clear guidelines on how to navigate life's complexities and make meaningful contributions to society. And as I've mentioned, My commitment can only be demonstrated by my contribution to the various public sector boards and roles that I've had within the community in which I live. So that's very, for me, a very important part of being a Parsi and a member of a community that will disappear, I suspect, in the not too distant future.

Gautam: Yeah, no, thank you, Yasmin. I am indeed very familiar with the Parsi history. And indeed, many of my best friends in the law are Parsis. And if I just take one jurisdiction, for example, in India, right, which you, of course, know very well, there are many prominent Parsi lawyers. And there have been. One of my greatest mentors was Fali Nariman, who was India's most celebrated lawyer, who unfortunately passed away in February of this year. But many, many prominent lawyers in India are Parsis. And many of the big industrial houses, as you know, in India, are Parsi in origin and remain Parsi in management and in all that they do. And those concepts of doing business fairly and being philanthropic, like very heart of Parsi culture. So it's very interesting. And I recall also, I grew up, Yasmin, in Northwest London. And very near where I went to school, there was an old cinema that stopped showing films. And it was taken over by the Parsi community. And it became a Zoroastrian center of worship. And this goes back to my much younger days. So I'm very familiar with that. And it's very interesting how it continues to inform you and inspire you, because it should do. And I also, I'm also very familiar with the fact that the Parsi community is getting smaller. As people marry outside of the Parsi faith, that inevitably has an impact. But the pride and the history of the Parsis is so rich. And, you know, it'll always be everlasting. So, and there's a long way yet to go. So, no, thank you for that. That's really, really nice to know. And, you know, just one last question on that before we turn to the last topic. What, in terms of looking at the examples of what the Parsi tradition and faith and heritage has taught you, one of the things that I'm always very mindful of is that the pro bono tradition, as I call it, is very well developed in certain jurisdictions. Jurisdictions but it's yet to develop fully in some jurisdictions now one of the countries where it is gathering pace is certainly India but just look at the size of that country and the legal community there i mean just briefly what you know what are your thoughts about what we could do to try to expand the pro bono tradition in a wonderful jurisdiction like India,

Yasmin: Actually, I think there's an awful lot that can be done. There's certainly an interest. We have been working in India and in fact have an entity called the A4ID Foundation, which is wholly Indian. We've been working alongside some amazing lawyers. In fact, part of the board comprises of some absolutely amazing Indian lawyers who are working with us to develop this. So we are bringing the culture to the pro bono culture that already exists, actually, within India and within the Indian community. But it's about using their legal brains that we're starting to to encourage. And that's happening, happening slowly, but it is happening. And with the vast number of lawyers in India, just think what we could do. Amazing. The other thing I wanted to just mention in terms of what you said was this week I received a gift from one of my team, members of my team. He's actually based in India. And the gift was a signed copy of the constitution, Indian constitution by Nariman.

Gautam: Oh, wow. Yeah. It's a wonderful book. Yes. And so I've been dipping since he sent it to me. I've been dipping in it. It's quite a quite a tomb. And I actually thought when I saw it, oh, my God, am I going to be able to read this? Because, you know, it's quite an interesting but quite a how can I put it, a dry topic.

Gautam: Yeah.

Yasmin: But having looked at it and read through it, it's actually brilliantly easy to read. He simplifies things because he knows the subject area so well that it's so easy to read. And I would thoroughly recommend if you have the opportunity to do so. And that includes your the people listening to this. I would thoroughly recommend it. It's a fantastic read.

Gautam: I agree. And, you know, the whole concept of the constitution is so important because it comes down to fundamental principles of fairness and doing things in an orderly way, in a proper way, and upholding that separation of power and not enabling things to just become merged as one. And that independence of thought is very very important now that's well i i think you're very fortunate to have a signed copy of that of that tome um i'm sure it'll be well thumbed in days and weeks to come as you read it so yes we've come almost to the end of our podcast and i've enjoyed, as i always do speaking to you i've had as i've said in the introduction i've had many a conversation with you over the years. I've always come away a much better person after each of those conversations, and this conversation has certainly been no exception to that. One of the traditions that we have in this podcast series, and I'm going to maintain that tradition even though this is a mini-series for South Asian Heritage Month, is to ask you a few more lighthearted things, to get to know the non-pro bono chief executive, Yasmin Batliwala. And so I want to ask you three very, very simple questions. Nothing mean, because I'm not a mean person, as you know, Yasmin. I want to ask you three little questions. First of all, have you got a favorite sort of music?

Yasmin: So on that question, I'd say, where do I start? I like all sorts of music. I have a particular preference, I should say, for classical music. Anything, anything at all by Mozart or J.S. Bach are things that I would be listening to regularly. I also like opera. In fact, I love opera. And I'm also a fan of David Bowie, I should say. But recently, Gautam, I've discovered a new genre of music, and that's heavy metal and electronic music.

Gautam: Amazing.

Yasmin: I’ve discovered a band called Disturbed, who are amazing. So to all your listeners, I encourage you to listen to their rendition of Simon and Garfunkel's song, Sound of Silence, which is absolutely mesmerizing and haunting.

Gautam: I’m going to check it out myself.

Yasmin: So let me know what you think. I've also discovered a band called Rammstein. I think that's how you pronounce it, which is a German heavy metal group of the 1990s. And I think, I think, and I seem to be listening to them quite a lot. And finally, I've also discovered, recently discovered, Mongolian electronic throat music. And that's totally blown me away. So I've been listening to that. So in terms of my musical taste, it's slightly expanding.

Gautam: That is incredibly eclectic. And I'm going to check out the German metal band and the rendition of Sound of Silence. I'm going to check those out. And I must tell you just very briefly on the Mongolian throat music. Many years ago, I was very fortunate to do a case for the government of Mongolia. It was a litigation in the English courts. And it went all the way to the Court of Appeal here. And I'm very happy that we won in the High Court and in the Court of Appeal. And I had the very good fortune to get to Mongolia twice on that case and to the great city of Ulaanbaatar. And I got introduced to Mongolian throat music. Now, the first trip was 2002-2003, around about then. I've not heard the electronic version as yet, but I'm certainly aware of the more basic classical rendition of throat singing. And also on that trip, I also learned about the eagle dance, which is a very famous dance that they do because the eagle and horses are very revered in Mongolia. And there's a dance which the wrestlers, Mongolian wrestling is also very popular and the wrestlers before they start the bout do this thing called the eagle dance. It's, I mean, I'll tell you more about it when I see you next. Okay, just two more quick ones and then I know we'll wrap. But have you got a favorite holiday destination or place that you just love to visit?

Yasmin: I, yeah, I like it. I love Italy. I don't think I've ever been to any single place And I like to travel around and visit different places that I haven't liked. So I like Italy. I like Italy also. But not only its beauty, its architecture, but the food and the people. So it's not far too far away from the UK. And so if ever I have an opportunity, I've gone to Italy. Recently, though, I went to Sicily. And that was a real find because it's obviously, I mean, talking about cultural traditions and cultural heritage, it seems to have been basically every country has stepped foot on it and taken it over. And it's left these amazing it's the amazing footprints so we've got the Greeks we've got the Normans we've got the various Moors as well all of them make it such a very interesting place.

Gautam: Absolutely. It just shows how cultures have moved around the world. One last question. We are recording this podcast during the European Championships in football. And this is not a leading question. And I am a lawyer. So this is not a leading question. Who's going to win the European Championships? Which country?

Yasmin: I’m afraid I don't watch football. So I can't answer that question. I have been to football matches, Gautam, and I haven't known what's been going on. This was during my time at the police authority, where I went out with the police at Watford to observe how policing was done. It was a lovely day, although we got up incredibly early, I seem to recall. But I had no idea what was going on in the pitch. Um it was slightly tribal in terms of the shouting. It was Manchester and Watford Manchester not sure if it was City or United. I think it was City it had um one of the Gallagher um one of the Gallagher

Gautam: Yeah it's Man City then

Yasmin: Yeah so just to watch that whole kind of tribal way was quite fascinating so i'm afraid i can't answer your question.

Gautam: That's quite okay you um you've answered many many questions in the course of this podcast yasmin thank you very much for doing this podcast it's been a delight to do it and to speak to you and um I could literally have asked you lots more questions and spent more time but these podcasts unfortunately would go on for a very long time if we did that but thank you very much indeed and thank you particularly for doing all the wonderful work that you continue to do on the the pro bono side and the great example you set through your leadership. So thank you very much.

Yasmin: Gautam, thank you so much also for inviting me to this podcast, which I must say I've enjoyed immensely. And if anyone listening out there is interested to work together with us at A4ID, please do contact me. And who knows what we can achieve together.

Gautam: Thank you, Yasmin.

Outro: Arbitral Insights is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. For more information about Reed Smith's global international arbitration practice, email arbitralinsights@reedsmith.com. To learn about the Reed Smith Arbitration Pricing Calculator, a first-of-its-kind mobile app that forecasts the cost of arbitration around the world, search Arbitration Pricing Calculator on reedsmith.com or download for free through the Apple and Google Play app stores. You can find our podcast on Spotify, Apple, Google Play, Stitcher, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts at Reed Smith LLP on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Twitter.

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Christian Castile, a trial attorney at Reed Smith, is joined by Reed Smith's Professional Development and Continuing Legal Education Manager, Joe Maguire, and Emily Chang, a former Reed Smith summer associate, to explore the evolution of LGBTQ+ inclusive language. This episode delves into the history and reclamation of the term "queer," examining its significance and the broader impacts of language on the LGBTQ+ community.

Joe and Emily share their personal stories and insights, discussing how their experiences have shaped their understanding and use of LGBTQ+ terminology. They also touch on the intersectionality of language across different marginalized groups and the importance of person-centered language. Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion on the power of words and the journey toward inclusivity.

This episode includes a frank discussion of words used to describe the LGBTQ+ community, some of which could be triggering to some listeners.

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Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith Podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

Christian: Hello, and welcome to this month's episode of Reed Smith's podcast, Inclusivity Included. My name is Christian Castile, and I am the guest host of this month's episode. I am here joined today by Joe Maguire and Emily Chang, and we are going to be discussing the evolution of LGBTQ+ inclusive language, focusing on the term queer as a prime and driving example, but looking sort of across the board, a different language that we use. I'll get into a little bit of the history of that term and some other terms, but as we are getting started here I'm gonna toss it over to Emily and Joe to give us a little bit of introduction. So Emily, we'll go ahead and have you start. Can you just share a little bit about your background and what it is that inspired you to pursue a career in the legal industry?

Emily: Yeah, I'm Emily. I majored in undergrad in hospitality and graduated in 2020. So my job on cruise ships was no longer an option. And I took a semester off and then decided I wanted to go to law school. I had taken a hospitality law class and I had loved it. It was definitely the right move. And I am studying for the bar and joining the firm in Dallas soon.

Christian: That is so exciting. Are you doing anything interesting in between your law school graduation and starting at the firm?

Emily: I’m going to clerk for a bankruptcy judge in Dallas for a year.

Christian: That's incredible. Congratulations.

Emily: Thank you.

Christian: Joe, I'll pass it over to you. Sort of the same question, if you could just share a little bit about your background and how you came to get involved with Reed Smith and the legal industry more broadly.

Joe: Sure. So I was an English and philosophy major in undergrad, which was all incredibly useful if I wanted to go into publishing, which I did not. So I ended up going to law school, as many people do, as sort of a default. And I clerked for a couple of years, and then I practiced for a couple of years. And it was clear that it was just not something that I was... I love the law, and I love the learning, I love the words, but the actual practice just just didn't suit. And so I went a different path and worked in law schools and then eventually came to work at the firm. And actually, this week is my 25th anniversary at the firm on the 14th.

Christian: Congratulations. What a milestone.

Joe: Thank you. Yes, it's a milestone I don't think anyone ever really expects to hit. It sort of comes as a surprise. So yeah, and it's interesting because my law firm experience was very different from when I was a practitioner to when I was in a role that allowed me to work with lawyers was a different dynamic and one that suited me quite well.

Christian: Well, I know I speak for many of us here at the firm to say that we're happy to have you in the role that you're in. You do some great work for us, and I know I enjoy working with you. So I'm so pleased to be sitting here with you both today for this podcast episode. And I appreciate the insights that the different perspectives that you just both shared are going to provide for the discussion that we're having. So just really quickly, I thought for anybody who is maybe less familiar with sort of the history of what we're talking about today, we are looking at the word queer as a sort of focal point for the evolution of LGBTQ+ inclusive language. And the reason that we're focusing on that word is because historically queer has seen a lot of change, a lot of development over the way that it's been used, the way it's been perceived in this particular community, most notably sort of starting out as a derogatory term, and then over time being reclaimed as different generations of the the LGBTQ community have really focused on trying to recapture some of that language. So sort of with that in mind, this is a question for both of you again, as well. And we'll go, we'll take this in reverse order. So Joe, if you could open us up here, is there anything that you are comfortable sharing about your LGBTQ experiences, your experience as a member of the LGBTQ+ community? And specifically, what is the language that you use with respect back to your own identity?

Joe: So I was aware by the time I started school as a kid that I was different. And I had some awareness of what that was about. And I, as an elementary schooler, was mildly fluid from a gender perspective. And so consequently, I was effeminate enough to get the attention of my classmates. And that made me a target. There were other factors in my identity that sort of contributed to that sense of otherness that had nothing to do with sexuality or gender. Going through those experiences, I had a fair amount of confusion about exactly what was going on. And all that seemed to clarify once puberty hit. And it became very clear to me that my identity was male and gay. And that is how I identify now. And that's probably been since about sixth grade.

Emily: Yeah. And I use she/her pronouns. And I think came out to myself probably in middle school as a product of, I think I grew up in Texas and I think that different sexualities are not presented as an option to you until you learn about them yourself. And I grew up in a time when the internet was very available. And I think that was very useful and educational for me as a young person. And then I came out as so many do to my parents and greater community and when I left for college and could do that and everyone was very receptive, And so it's very nice to have a community here and in the larger, in everywhere I've gone.

Christian: Emily, it's interesting that you mentioned that, too. That could almost be its entire separate topic, right, of the advent of the Internet and how that has sort of impacted not only the way that, you know, our community has disseminated information and representation, but also how it's impacted the way that we use language. Language, getting sort of to the crux of this episode, I'm curious if either of you are willing to share specifically what the word queer means to you personally, and whether you've had any experiences with that term that sort of informed the way that you interact with it, the way that you perceive it, and your feelings around it.

Joe: It took me a long time to decide to respond to Christian about whether to do this, because I have, I feel conflicted. As a lover of words, I think queer is a great word. And I've always felt sad that it was hijacked in the way that it has been. And I mean, I went through a period of time where I wanted to be an etymologist. It's still an interest that I have. So despite the fact that I think it's a fabulous word, it's not a word I really ever use. And I certainly don't connect with it as part of my own identity. And while I love the idea of reclaiming words, anytime I've tried to use it, like the word has come out of my mouth, I have not felt comfortable. I'm not 100% positive about what the sort of official definition is in current usage. But, you know, I've heard it used as a an alternative to the sort of alphabet soup of LGBTQIA+, which is certainly a mouthful, and a lot. So I understand the desire to find a term that sort of captures all of that without literally needing to spell it out. But I've also heard it used as a general term for sort of intersection between sort of sexual and gender identities, which that can be a lot to communicate to someone. And so I can understand the need to want to kind of find an accessible term. I think about the term gay, which is sort of used as a catch-all for many sexual orientation identities, but it's a hijacked word and it's a little artificial. So because gay is an old term and it's one that I personally have come to identify with, I sort of try and remind myself on the use of the word queer that it's a little bit like gay and it's just a word that's been selected to try and capture something. But that's the purpose of words. They exist to capture the meaning of something, and it's never going to be quite exact.

Christian: Yeah, absolutely. Especially, I think, within this community where there's so much nuance and sort of differences that we can all celebrate about each other. I think precision is definitely something that's difficult. Also hearing sort of from your response there, a little bit of, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like maybe some change over time in, you know, in one direction or another. Or maybe not necessarily directional change, but just some changes in the way that you've perceived that word over time and the way that you've sort of grappled with it. I'm curious if I'm reading that correctly, sort of what stages of your life, if any, that correspond with the way that you've your changes in that perception of that word have come about.

Joe: So you know obviously it was a common derogatory term in my youth so you know in that in that sense you know there's always going to be an element of trigger quick i mean it's a microsecond but it still exists that i probably you know will never fully lose and i think the evolution over time is to have it began to appear in different places from within the community. And I can't recall the precise time, but I can generally sort of recall when it started to pop up and I had a very negative reaction and I really had to sort of stop and examine that. But I think really my bigger transition was after marriage equality and sort of rights for gays and lesbians were sort of solidified in a variety of areas, legal areas, and societally. And then the sites turned to trans equality. And that just sort of opened up. Sort of before that, I didn't really know any trans people. And so being, knowing, and it's how we all learn and evolve is through our connections with other people. So by becoming connected with people who identified as trans and some of the other parts of the alphabet that I had never known before, I started to understand the challenge between precision, but also just being able to communicate in a general way. And that sort of pushed my evolution in how I see the word.

Christian: And Emily, I think for you, sort of same question, what does the term queer mean to you personally? And how has your understanding of the use of that word, whether it be for yourself personally or broader from the community perspective? What has that been like for you?

Emily: Yeah, I, again, did grow up kind of in this weird in-between time of very much when I learned the word as a young person, I knew it had been used in a derogatory way to large swaths of people to disenfranchise them and harm them. But that was never my personal experience. I had never heard the word used in a derogatory way to me or to any of my friends. There were certainly other words that got used, but queer was never one of them. And I do think I was growing up in a time of reclaiming the word. And I think there are lots of benefits to it. I like the idea that especially for kids, for people in middle school who are learning who they are to not have to. Niche down and label themselves when they're still learning who they are and to have this word that I perceive as an umbrella term for just the larger LGBTQ queer community to just be able to say I'm queer and I maybe don't know exactly what that means for me yet but it means that I'm something different than this societal standard I have found very helpful and I know a lot of my peers have found it very helpful and I think in a larger community sense I know several non-binary people who find it just easier than saying gay or lesbian when that doesn't quite identify with the intersection of their gender identity and their sexual identity. And so I know that the word has been harmful to people and have over time spoken to older people and have realized that and certainly don't use it to describe someone who I know is not comfortable with the word. But in my generation, I found it very helpful. And I think a lot of people my age find a comfort in it, almost a sense of security of just this big blanket term that also includes all of us and allows us to refer to the larger community as a whole, kind of as queer. And I think that's really nice. And I also grew up watching the word get used in mainstream media In 2018, when they revived Queer Eye, I know the original Queer Eye, I think, and I didn't watch it at the time, but the early 2000s one, I think that word was being used in an almost subversive way. And in 2018, when it came out, that was just what the show was called. And that's just what we all called it. And I don't know anyone who batted an eye at that, because it was just a very normal part of our vernacular.

Christian: Yeah, that's a really interesting point with the differences in reaction to pop culture. You know, I didn't even think about Queer Eye, but you're absolutely right. I have a similar, I think, sort of reaction to you when I think about, you know, when we were younger and that show was coming out for the first time versus now. That's a really interesting observation. Joe, I'm curious, do you have any reaction to that as somebody who, you know, maybe was paying more attention to the environment when shows like that were coming around originally?

Joe: Yeah, it's interesting. I'll just sort of move, start more current and work backwards. You know, so when they when they relaunched, you know, Queer Eye, I did not have any reaction at all to the word, I think, just because it was already like a brand in a way. But when it came out originally, I was I was suspicious of the show. It was it was a show where I avoided it, I think, in part because of the title and a lack of like, I just wasn't sure. Like i knew there were plenty of of gay people involved in the show but i just wasn't quite sure what their take was going to be was it going to be kind of a wink wink not not gay people are just so strange and funny and and so it took me a while to watch it and then i'm like okay i kind of see it so i i agree with emily that there was a lot of subversion going on in in the its original iteration that didn't really exist the second time around because it was sort of like no big deal.

Christian: Yeah, I think that goes directly to sort of this development of language piece that we're talking about today. It sounds like, you know, listening to the two of you sort of describe your experiences that you, you know, sort of all of us now as we sit here today are on a similar page with the way that we interact with this sort of language. But it's interesting hearing the perspectives coming from sort of two different and distinct places with different and distinct experiences sort of driving those thoughts. I'm curious to focus on, you know, as a community, as a group of folks who do have different identities and are trying to find a way to move forward that involves language that we all feel comfortable with and that describes us all, what are our thoughts on sort of the broader impacts of language, of the word queer, and how are those intersectional identities and things that we're thinking about factoring in. So sort of with that in mind, I'm curious if either of you have encountered in your experiences any challenges or any pushback from folks within the LGBTQ community to the word queer, either because they don't feel that it represents them or because, you know, any other concerns that you've been faced with?

Emily: I certainly have had interactions with people a little older than me who have a similar reaction to Joe in that the word when they grew up with it wasn't what it means to me now. And so it is a little bit more startling to them to hear on a first brush. And if the conversation continues and it's realized that that's a word that's not just a little new or startling, but is actually gently triggering in the way that it is for many people. It stops being used in that conversation and with that person if they're uncomfortable with it because as much as i like it and as much as i think it is inclusive for the whole community and even if the other person in the conversation thinks that it doesn't change the fact that they have an experience with that specific word that is harmful and and brings back negative associations And I do really like the trend toward inclusive words that don't make people pick niche labels at an early age. I do really like the freedom that broader terms give us. But I do also think there is room for growth or to find different words that across the community, across generations can be a little bit more kind to everyone that are new. We could invent a new word that is all-inclusive that no one has had bad interactions with. I don't know how we would or what that would be, but that's my ideal world for the future of language.

Joe: That is also my vision, would be to come up with a word that doesn't have baggage associated with it. And I also echo Emily, is that I would love a term, which is sort of how queer is tending to be used to be broad and inclusive, as opposed to the alphabet soup. The alphabet soup also, I think forces, I mean, Emily's coming at it from a person from the perspective of someone who perhaps is still trying to figure out who they are as they're, you know, forming their identity. But I'm also thinking about it in terms of like, just how specific does a person need to be? And I appreciate that, you know, some people have pretty complicated identities around orientation and gender that require not just a word, but maybe a sentence, a few sentences, and that gets very personal very quickly. Particularly because they may be things that the person that they're interacting with may not even be that familiar. They might use the word, and the person that they're speaking with may not even understand what that means. And so the fact that a person is often in the position of having to explain their identity to someone, that's just exhausting. And does someone need that much detail? So I think having an umbrella term that people kind of generally understand that you have an identity that is not 90, what is it, 94% of the population, whatever the current stats are.

Christian:Yeah, that's a very interesting piece. And I actually think it ties into something that Emily had just said specifically in that last answer that she gave about, I think you used the word freedom, Emily, when you were talking about words like queer and how they afford folks who use those identifiers a little bit more freedom. I'm curious, especially having just listened to what Joe said, if you could elaborate on that a little bit, sort of what you meant by that when you said freedom and, you know, how it ties into some of the things we're talking about today.

Emily: I definitely agree with Joe in that it gives freedom to not have to disclose parts of yourself that maybe you're not comfortable. Talking to other people about queer is just a very umbrella blanket term that implies that you are not the same as 94% of the population, but you don't have to go into specifically what you feel if you don't want to. I also think it gives freedom for exploration and change. And I think because being queer is not the norm in society, especially for younger people, can be difficult to figure out what that means for you specifically and how you feel and what your identity is. And so to have this umbrella word feels free and safe to me to not have to pick something and then feel nervous later about saying that specific word I chose doesn't fit anymore. And now I need to change what I'm telling people about myself and the stigma that comes with that. And I think the worry for some young people that comes from deviating from the norm already and the deviating from the deviation you decided. And so just saying I'm queer from the jump, it provides, I think, a sense of freedom to learn and grow and a sense of safety in that.

Christian: Right. And that's so important. And I think, you know, we have now nowadays we have studies suggesting, you know, having freedom as somebody who's growing up and discovering your identity, I think, is so important in, you know, long term success and happiness. I think a big piece of this too, and you both touched on this already, is whether it's queer or whether it's other language, so much of our community's success in speaking with each other is about this idea of person-centered language, which is not specific to the LGBTQ community. But when we are talking about it in that way, using the language that people are using to describe themselves and sort of being willing to go on that journey with folks to the extent that they are, you know, finding out new things about their identities, using new words, sort of being willing to take that linguistic journey with them, I suppose. Joe, earlier, you know, speaking of linguistic journeys, you mentioned that you had sort of a strong negative reaction to the word queer the first, you know, first time, first couple of times that you heard it. And you said that you had to examine that reaction. I'm curious if you'd be willing to to share for us sort of what that process was like for you and what was your impetus to maybe take a step back from the shock or the negative reaction that had you feeling like it was worth examining?

Joe: Well, I think any time I have a strong negative reaction to something, I just feel like it's worth examining what's going on. Sometimes it's very obvious, but other times I'm like, hmm, I'm really surprised that I feel so strongly this way. And I think it's partly because I think I've always thought it's a cool word. I mean, just the sound and in a way that like faggot, for instance, not a cool word. It just doesn't sound cool. it doesn't have like there's it doesn't have any uniqueness to it it's very harsh and so you know as i dug deeper into it i realized this that it and i love the idea of reclaiming words but there are a couple things that that sort of went on for me one was it was a little bit shocking because it was a word that you're not supposed to say and then people are saying it and there are other or reclaimed words in other communities. I know African Americans who have a very strong negative reaction to the use of the N-word by anyone, whether they are part of the African American community or not. And then I think there's also this other piece that is a challenge in reclaimed words, which is why it would be lovely for, and I think we will eventually evolve to a term that doesn't have baggage, but the challenge is who can use the word, right? It's It's been reclaimed, but who, who's allowed to use it and when, and, um, I think anytime you have a word that people are unsure, they're unsure about what it means exactly and who is allowed to use it, that creates a barrier. It's no longer inclusive. It's really quite exclusive. And that's a danger that I, you know, that I see. And I have to kind of think about like, if I start using it, how do I feel if other people, say an ally or just a random person on the street, uses it? Yeah, I'm still not 100% sure about how I feel.

Christian: It's definitely a key topic to sort of conceptualize for sure. It's interesting, right, when you think about this discussion too in terms of other communities outside of the LGBTQ+ community, right? And so I'm thinking about the way that other marginalized groups have their own language issues that come up. I'm curious if either of you have ever found yourself in an experience where you were either more comfortable or more informed about using language, that is specific to a marginalized group because of your experiences with words like queer and sort of the dynamic nature of LGBTQ+ language. I think that Joe makes a really good point about who can use words and when and how that is concerning in a lot of ways. And I think that having a lot of friends in different marginalized communities, I don't necessarily use words that maybe they have reclaimed or that they would use for themselves. Because if I'm not part of those communities, it doesn't feel like my place to use them. But to me, the queer community is broader. And again, I think as someone who hasn't experienced that word being used in a derogatory way and who has only ever encountered the word in a generally pretty positive way, it makes me feel more comfortable. If that's how I describe myself openly and my friends from other marginalized communities use that word for me, I don't mind it as much, especially, I think, because I know that they have a history with words that impact them. And so I'm more likely to understand that their intent with that word is positive and to support me and the way that I use that word. And they don't ever mean it in a derogatory way because they understand the power that words have. And I think that that kind of intersectionality is important. And I also think that the queer umbrella is so broad and encompasses so many other marginalized communities that there is a lot of interplay between different communities and the words that we use.

Joe: I would say from my perspective, I'm very sensitive to words. So I try and really pay attention to the words that people are using for themselves and about their community. I just pay a lot of attention. I will occasionally do the bystander thing, not just for our people within the queer community who have an identity I don't identify with, but are perhaps a topic of conversation. But also for other communities and to just highlight, you know, in a low key way, why a particular language that's being used might be problematic. And I'm not talking about slurs. I'm thinking about having been in a conversation about for the Latin community and the use of Latinx versus Latino / Latina, and just being thoughtful about the words that are used. And the fact that communities are not monolithic, I mean, we, by definition, are very broad, but within other marginalized communities, there's a broad range of identities that people hold, and language reflects that. And one of the problems with language is it's kind of a general label that works well a lot of the time, but it's going to chafe a number of people who are part of that community and people who the label is applied to. And I use that labeling not in a negative way, but just it's a term that's used to refer to them.

Christian: Yeah, and I think that's critical, right? That point about, you know, communities not being a monolith. So there's always going to be a certain amount of struggle. But I think what I'm hearing from both of you is that, you know, sort of grappling with language in the way that you have as a member of the LGBTQ community has given you sort of insights and an ability to think critically about language in other settings and as used by other groups as well. In a way that is really empathy forward, which I think is really awesome and something that is important for us as we move forward in this D&I space. I think that puts us at right about time. Emily and Joe, it has been an absolute pleasure talking with you today. Thank you so much for sharing your insights. Thank you everybody so much for listening to this month's episode of Inclusivity Included. We at Reed Smith are always happy to have you as listeners. I hope you all had a good time today and learned a lot. Thank you.

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In honor of Asian American, Native Hawaiian, and Pacific Islander Heritage Month, we delve into the unique experiences of first-generation attorneys at BigLaw firms. Featuring a distinguished panel from Reed Smith’s PAALS (Pacific and Asian American Lawyers and Staff) business inclusion group, Bareeq Barqawi is joined by Thuy Nguyen, Rizwan 'Rizzy' Qureshi, and Julia Peng. These exceptional attorneys share their inspiring journeys, the challenges they faced, the importance of mentorship, and how they balance their cultural identities within the legal profession. The group shares their invaluable insights and advice for aspiring first-generation law students and young attorneys.

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Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included, Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

Bareeq: Welcome to Inclusivity Included, Reed Smith's podcast dedicated to exploring diversity, equity and inclusion within the legal profession and across sectors. I'm your host, Bareeq Barqawi, and in honor of May being Asian American, Native Hawaiian, and Pacific Islander Heritage Month, we have a special episode today highlighting first-generation attorneys at Big Law. I'm thrilled to be joined by three exceptional attorneys from our firm and part of today's panel, Thuy Nguyen, a partner in our real estate group, Rizwan ‘Rizzy’ Qureshi, a partner in global Global Regulatory Enforcement Litigation, and Julia Peng, an associate attorney in Global Commercial Disputes. Each of them brings unique perspectives and experiences as first-generation attorneys of Asian and South Asian descent. Thank you all for joining us today.

Rizwan: Thanks for having us.

Bareeq: So to start, can each of you just share a little bit about your background and what inspired you to pursue a career in law? Let's begin with you, Thuy.

Thuy: Thanks, Bareeq. We have to go down memory lane a little bit, but I'll try to keep it concise. As a Vietnamese woman, my family and I immigrated to the United States in 1991. My dad served in the Vietnam War in opposition to the Communist Party. After he served in the war, he was put in what they refer to as re-education camps, which are essentially concentration camps. They put you to work, they tortured you. The idea was to kind of, re-educate you to think the way they thought. He spent a few years there and fortunately for us afterwards, we were able to gain refugee status and come to the U.S. and be protected by the United States government. So my two parents and six kids came to the United States in San Francisco with nothing but the clothes on our back. And we just, my parents set to do a variety of odd and end jobs to support our family. My dad did landscaping. My mom worked at the bakery. She worked at the flea market. She did everything she could get her hands on to feed the six of us. And we were on public assistance. I guess there's no way to really sugarcoat it. And we were, we received food stamps, we received housing assistance. And I remember as a young child, I was fortunate to be able to go to school and pick up English relatively quickly because I was still really young. And so kind of the responsibility I had in my household was taking my parents to the county of public assistance whenever they needed help getting getting food stamps or filling in paperwork for them when it came time for an inspection on our household. And I just remember being really, really terrified every time I had to go to any place of authority and just thinking like, we don't belong here. And I don't want to say anything wrong because I don't want them to reject us. And I just was looking for a profession where I could learn to advocate for myself and for my family, just so we can kind of take away a little bit of that fear and anxiety that I experience every time I go to a court or again, any place of public authority. So I thought a a career in law would be something that could help us overcome some of that anxiety and that fear. And, you know, eight years later, here I am.

Bareeq: Wow. I am actually blown away. What a powerful story, Thuy. Thank you so much for sharing. And I actually came to this country in ‘92, so I can totally relate to coming and having, it's pretty like intimidating experience to come and learn a whole new culture and language, especially what your parents face. So thank you for sharing that. Rizzy, how about you?

Rizwan: Sure. Thank you for having me. And it's funny because Thuy and I have very different backgrounds. My parents are immigrants from Pakistan. I'm a first-generation American, but our backgrounds are also very similar. My parents are immigrants my father grew up very poor he worked his way up and became a veterinarian his his true dream was to be a physician and you know i know that our efforts here on this podcast and there are affinity groups that are BIGs as we call them is always to, steer clear of and and push it against any stereotypes but I'm gonna I'm gonna. Doubled down on a stereotype. I was destined to be a physician, and I was a failure because I did not become a physician. And I mean failure in air quotes. Like my colleague, I was the one, because my parents' English was not their first language, who looked at their very first mortgage document, communicated with their lender to help them understand what kind of risk they were taking by borrowing money to purchase their first home, executing leases on behalf of my father and his family members. And that was my first exposure to, quote unquote, the law. But at the time, all I was was a 12-year-old kid who was trying to help his dad navigate what was otherwise a complex world and complex sort of legal obligations that he had for his various affairs for his family. Not only us, but our extended family. So how did I pursue a career in the law? When I decided to drop AP bio anatomy and physiology when I was in high school, and it literally requested, my father requested a sit down, not with the principal, but also with the superintendent, because it was going to impact the trajectory of my career. I knew that the social sciences, sort of the legal profession, advocacy, helping people was something that was really what made me tick. And sort of the rest is history. You know, I went on to get an undergraduate degree in political science and international relations, did some work at the United Nations on legal advocacy issues. And then felt that the next natural step for me was to go to law school. And I had the privilege to go to Howard University School of Law. And that's really what inspired me to pursue a career in the law. And I don't think it's any different than my colleague. It was my life experience and what I was called upon to do as a child of immigrants and realize that that's where I'm most effective. And, you know, breaking news, my parents are very proud of me and so is my father, but it was a life-changing sort of historic moment when I decided I wasn't going to pursue medical school.

Bareeq: Thank you so much for sharing, Rizzy. I always think it's interesting because as children of immigrants, all of us like end up being these these kid advocates and kid interpreters. And I can relate to you overcoming the obstacles of your culture because actually I always think it's a funny story. We laugh about it now, my dad and I, but my dad used to say, you know, why do you have to go to get your bachelor's degree? You're going to end up being like someone's wife and mother. And I'm like, okay. And that just made me want to prove him wrong. And then he cried at my college graduation. When I graduate top of my class, I always, I always like to remind him of that. Julia, what about you?

Julia: I have a similar story as my colleagues here. I immigrated to America with my parents in 1997. Both my parents were doctors in China, but my dad didn't really speak English at all when we came to America. And so it was an interesting family dynamic to have someone who was a doctor in China now taking on, you know, like dishwashing jobs or waitering jobs at Chinese restaurants, because that's all he could do with his limited English. And so I too was someone who was helping translate for the family and taking on that role. And I thought, I didn't understand the advocacy I was helping to do for my family at the time. And because my parents were doctors, they were very, very insistent that, you know, I would be a doctor and that that's the only career path that made sense for the paying family. And so I actually did make my transition transition to law until my senior year of college. I was pre-med all the way through. In fact, I have a biology degree because my parents are like, you're so close, just get the degree and then you can decide really if you want to be a lawyer or a doctor. So it wasn't until my junior year in college that summer where I went to Peru to intern for two months for my med school applications that I completely realized I'm not cut out to be a doctor. I love the advocacy aspect and I've always enjoyed that even as a child. And my roommate was planning on law school and she She invited me to check out, I guess, back then I went to UCSC and they had a couple of mock one hour classes that undergrads could attend and kind of get the experience of what it would be like to be a law student. And I totally fell in love and I was double majoring in poli sci anyways. And I was like, oh, this is this is a perfect fit for me. And this is exactly what I want to do. But I think like Rizzy, I had to really prove to my parents that this is the route for me and that it was a cause of strife within the family that I was now deviating from the master plan.

Bareeq: Thank you so much for sharing, Julia. And not to even knock the medical profession, because I think it's wonderful if you can do that. But I'm really happy you all ended up attorneys because you're so good at it. So let's talk a little bit about what I kind of referred to as almost like the immigrant identity crisis as you work to adapt and assimilate to culture in America. So balancing cultural identity with fitting into the workplace, it can be challenging. How do you manage this type of balance? And actually, Julia, I'm going to go ahead and start with you?

Julia: Sure. It's something that's still different. So within my family, it's much more like you study, you work hard, and you'll get noticed because of all the work that you have put in. And even now, my parents think the best way forward is always get your straight A's, check all the boxes, but keep your head down and eventually your hard work will pay off. And that's just not how the legal career works. I think that part is definitely a big aspect of it. But I think professionally, I have been encouraged at Reed Smith to get on podcasts like these or to share my opinions, to have these strong opinions that I can exchange and interact with so that it helps me improve as a person, but it also, I feel safe to have, you know, a different personality than what my, I think parents or my family would want to be, which is, oh, you know, you're easygoing and you're, you do your duties to your family and you're a good daughter. But at the end of the day, you're here for your family versus I think I have grown now to become more career-focused. And that's something that I'm also working through.

Bareeq: Thank you for sharing. And I love that aspect of feeling safe enough to bring that identity to the workplace too. Thuy, have you ever felt the need to conform to certain expectations in the workplace? How do you manage your cultural identity?

Thuy: That's definitely a challenge for me. When I was a summer associate going into first year associate, my class was fairly large for San Francisco at the time. There was six of us and I was the only immigrant, came from a diverse background. One thing that I quickly realized was it was very hard for me to network and connect with people, especially at the beginning. With my parents not speaking English, I didn't grow up watching TV or talking about politics at the dinner table, listening to music, having recreational activities like golf or going on vacation with my family. We didn't do or do any of that. And I didn't have those experiences so that I can talk to someone when we see them at the cooler or when we're going around the table and everyone's like, tell us something interesting about yourself. I was always very intimidated and afraid to take up air in the room because I felt like I didn't have anything valuable or interesting to add to the conversation. And I didn't want to talk about my experience or my background, because sometimes it can be very heavy and not really appropriate for like, tell us a fun fact about yourself. And over time, I just had to really push myself outside of my comfort zone and learn new things and just, you know, not be afraid to tell people what I did over the weekend, even if I thought it wasn't interesting, and just not be afraid to share. I feel like that's really kind of shaped my identity at work, just not being afraid to share and then sometimes having to talk about my background and not being afraid that it is who I am. And it's shaped me into the person, the individual, and the attorney that I am today.

Bareeq: I love that. Thank you for sharing. And Rizzy, what about you? How do you navigate your cultural identity in the workplace place?

Rizwan: You know, it's a hard question to answer because in a weird way, I would argue that it ebbs and flows. You know, I'm Rizzy. I am who I am. And I'm very outwardly, I mean, I know that I have a face for radio, which is why I'm on this podcast, but I have a, I look like a child of immigrants. I look like I'm of Pakistani descent. So it's outwardly evident to this homogenous law firm or big law or corporate culture that I'm sort of different. But like my colleagues, I think there's some truth to. You want to find a place in a professional environment where many are not like you. So how do you do that? I'm much farther along in my career. So I have a little bit more, I'll call it courage, admittedly, of being my authentic self. And I don't think I had that courage when I was a young person because I felt like I needed to assimilate to something that wasn't me. But then the other thing that plays an important role here, to give an example, I'm the partner chair of the Muslim Inclusion Committee at Reed Smith. And over the last year, like many people in our community of various religious backgrounds and cultural backgrounds, Muslims are hurting, particularly in light of the Middle East conflict. And what's interesting there is, as a result of that conflict, and this ebbs and flows again, it happened on 9/11 when I was a college student, when otherwise I was just a member of a fraternity who probably was partying too much and just happened to be a brown guy. But then when 9/11 happened, I felt a duty to be more authentically a child of Pakistani immigrants, Muslim American, who represents a group of people here who are not all like the horrible people who hijacked not only planes, but hijacked our peaceful faith and attacked America on 9/11. And I feel the same way in light of this crisis that's occurring in Gaza, which is, I'm a Muslim, and I believe in human rights, and I do believe fundamentally that there's a lot of well-intentioned Muslims who believe in peace and want peace in the region, and our voice needs to be heard. So that's a long way of saying, Barik, it depends on the day, it depends on the moment. Sometimes I feel like, am I not being truly myself all the time? But I'm just speaking for myself. And that's sort of how I've navigated it. And I'm in a different place in my career now where I have, like I said, more courage to be who I am.

Bareeq: I think you bring up such excellent points, which is I don't want to say the word strategic, but sometimes there's an appropriate time to kind of bring up your identity and to add your voice to that conversation. And then there's other times where you kind of just like go with the fold. And that speaks to, I think, being comfortable in the workplace environment, being more confident. And that takes time sometimes, like as you know yourself more than you bring yourself to the table in a really authentic way, given what that environment is or that situation is. So like situational analysis, so to speak. So thank you for sharing that really excellent, excellent examples. I'm going to actually go into a little bit more about, I'm going to go about mentorship. It's often crucial for career development. I would love to hear a little bit about how important mentorship has been in your careers and your journeys. And Rizzy, since we had you end, I'm going to have you start.

Rizwan: Sure. Interestingly, I just was part of a Law360 article on this issue, and it randomly came about, you know, mentorship has been critical to my success, whether as a young person from my father all the way up through aunts and uncles and older cousins and throughout my professional career, from law school through becoming an AUSA at the Department of Justice and back in private practice. is. I rely upon my mentors to this day, and mentors are what I owe a lot of my career to. I did put in a lot of hard work, but, Working with people and understanding from people how the, I won't say sausage, how the kebab is made in the law firm setting is so important to your success. And in that Law360 article, I talked about a seminal moment when I was a young summer associate coming into first year associate and a black partner, or actually he was a senior associate at the time, who recruited me from Howard University School of Law. Late on a Friday, right before a summer event, as you usually have with the Summer Associate Program, which we're in right now, had me do an assignment. And he randomly called me down to his office and asked me to close his door. And my heart dropped because I was like, something's up. And he basically sat me down and said, your work product is absolutely unacceptable. It will never fly in this law firm or any law firm. And if you continue to submit work like this, lazy work like this, you're never going to succeed here. So you might get an offer at the end of the summer, but you won't succeed. To me, I talked to my wife about it to this day. That was such a pivotal moment for me because he was a person I trusted. He's the person I probably got too comfortable with and sort of melded in thinking we needed to get on with our Friday evening activity of which he was going to join me. And I went back to the drawing board. I worked hard, Got him the assignment I needed. And that's been sort of a moment that I continue to cite back to whenever I'm digging deep to do something for clients or for my internal clients or my colleagues is that always, always, always try to work towards the utmost excellence and perfection that you can in your work. You're going to make mistakes. But I'm so thankful for that moment because that individual is now a client of mine, still a dear friend, a big client of the firm. And I think it's a testament to that moment where that mentor, who was of a minority background like me and knew that we had to go the extra mile in this environment because there's so few of us, really kept it real with me. And the fact that he kept it real is one moment to which I owe a lot of my success today. And far too often, in my opinion, whether it's on my white partners or my minority partners, I feel like we often walk on eggshells and don't give appropriate constructive criticism to our mentees. And in the end, the mentees pay for it because folks stop giving them work, they eventually get less busy, and before you know it, they've moved on to somewhere else and we haven't done enough to give them constructive feedback so that they can succeed.

Bareeq: I love that story. Thank you so much for sharing, Rizzy. And I love that it also, I think, probably modeled for you how a mentor should be, which is not just rainbows and, you know, pie in the sky. It's also, you know, keeping it real and making sure you're pushing that person to their success because you see it, right? Thuy, have you found your experience as a first-generation attorney, what have you found in terms of mentorship opportunities and mentorship in terms of your career development?

Thuy: I'm going to take it kind of at a slightly different angle, Bareeq. Going back to my first year as an associate here at Reed Smith, I realized about a month in that I wanted to do transactional work and I was slotted in the litigation group. I came from a law school that was heavily, heavily litigation focused. I did moot court for two or three years until I realized at Reed Smith, I wanted to do transactional work and looking around the office, we didn't have a ton of it. And one day I realized I can't keep doing this. I can't, I need to be billing eight to nine hours a day. And I can't just keep sitting around waiting for work to, to come onto my plate. So I started reaching out to other offices and I reached out to this one partner in Southern California who I won't name. And I said, Hey, I'm very very interested in your practice and transactional work. Is there anything I can help with? And he was hesitant. And looking back, I understand why he might have been hesitant. Someone you don't know who is a very junior associate who is just realizing that she wants to practice transactional law. It is hard to take on someone new under your wing and have to show them the ropes, have to show them how to run a bread line, have to teach them some very basic things. So it took him a while to eventually give me work. So finally, when it came, when the opportunity presented itself for me to help this partner with this assignment, it was my very first assignment with him. So I really wanted to make sure it was polished and it was my best foot forward because I knew that if it wasn't, I was never going to get more work from him and he was probably never going to take another chance on a junior associate again. So thankfully, I did a pretty good job and he still talks about that assignment. To this day, but he was impressed. And one assignment led to another, led to another. And next thing you knew it, I was working for him full time. And I remember during this time, I did many things to get his attention, including flying down to Southern California to see him and see other people that he worked with and called him and emailed him. And I guess all of this is It's just to say sometimes mentorship doesn't fall into your lap. Mentors don't show up on your doorstep. You have to seek them out. And sometimes you have to keep banging on the door to seek them out. But at the end of the day, it's totally worth it. He is now a mentor and a sponsor for me. And I credit all the success I've had at this firm with him taking me under his wing.

Bareeq: I think that's a great example for those that look at mentorship to say, you know, sometimes you have to be really proactive about it and pursue, you know, somebody saying like you have the experience I want to one day, you know, follow in your footsteps. And I love that story. That's fantastic. And Julia, what about you? What about your experience with mentorship in your career?

Julia: To that I think I have to quickly summarize my career, which did not start in big law. So I have been working or I've worked at three law firms. I started an IP boutique litigation firm. And then I realized that wasn't really for me. And then I did plaintiff side law for a little bit. And I love that. But I realized in the long run, that would also probably not be the perfect fit for me. before I made my way to read myth. And I think for every step of my career, I have had mentors and guidance from people within the firm, which I think is really important to rely upon. But I've also luckily had the support of the Asian American Bar Association up in the Bay Area. And for me, that is a really great source of mentorship because you meet people from, you know, all backgrounds, big laws, law, government, and they are such a great resource if you're thinking about, you know, what trajectory is your career going in. If you have some, anything you want to discuss us about your career that you might not necessarily feel as comfortable talking about within the firm. There's a resource for you outside the firm. And so I actually, I guess, want to talk about my experience seeking mentorship and getting help with the Bar Association. And that has been a really good experience for me.

Bareeq: Thank you so much for sharing, Julia. And I also love that you mentioned the Asian Bar Association, because I think that's a great resource. And even thinking outside the box, like what other organizations can I kind of look to to make those connections and relationships? I could definitely talk to you all all day because you have such eye opening experiences that I think so many of us can learn from. But as we wrap up, I guess my last question will be to all aspiring first-generation law students and other first-generation attorneys listening, especially those of diverse background, what advice would you give them? How can they navigate the pressures of feeling the need to go, quote-unquote, that extra mile? Rizzy, I'll start with you.

Rizwan: Yeah, thank you. I'll say going the extra mile, similar to what Thuy was saying, I completely agree, which is you not only go the extra mile in your day-to-day substantive legal work, but you have to think about the bigger picture, building your brand and building your practice. Because before you know it, you may be a summer associate or even a law student and a baby lawyer. And then you have to start building your brand and building your practice and going out there and getting work for your colleagues as well as yourself. self. So to me, it's really about tapping into the network. And I'm not saying your network, because our individual networks are limited. They are who we know, who we went to law school with. But it's so important what some of my colleagues have said. It's like, don't wait for that mentor to come knocking on your door to say, hey, I want to help you. You need to go out there and adopt your own mentors. And I did that and I continue to do that. I mean, young people today and young lawyers today in our world that we live in now have so many resources at their disposal where you can go up and look up a client or you can look up a law firm and you can pretty quickly determine how many degrees of separation you have with that one individual with whom you not only have a interest in their practice, but maybe you have a cultural affinity or connection to them. Leverage that. I never would have gotten my federal clerkship if I did not find out the judge that I wanted to clerk for had a former clerk who knew a buddy I went to law school with. So what did I do? I reached out to that buddy and I said, hey, I'm trying to clerk for Judge Johnson in the Eastern District of New York. Do you know this guy, Jason? He's like, oh yeah, he's my boy. My immediate response to my buddy was, well, he's my boy now. Can we do lunch with him? And the rest is history. And the same goes for my trajectory to the US Attorney's Office. So really take ownership of every facet of your life. We get so tied up as lawyers to be type A, and I have to get the best grades, which you do, and I have to do the best work, which you do. But you can't just be doing your best work and getting your best grades inside of a cave. You need to sort of take that out there and learn from others, leverage relationships so that you can continue to excel in whatever it is you want to do.

Bareeq: Fantastic. Thank you, Rizzy. Julia, what about you? What advice would you be giving to other first-generation attorneys or aspiring law students that are first-generation?

Julia: I think it's really important to keep an open mind and stay curious. So not only do you, I think, have to actively pursue what you want, but I think you still need to keep an open mind to figure out what you do want. Coming from a background where I think my parents just expected me to go excel in whatever career I wanted to do, they were not very understanding when at first I wasn't that excited about immediately going into middle. I wanted to have different experiences before I made my way into big law. And I think there's a lot of opportunities out there for lawyers who want to explore and learn a little bit more about the legal career, about themselves before they transition into big law. And I think that is perfectly acceptable. I know that a lot of Asian Americans just, they want to be the best and that's very commendable, but you can be the best in all sorts of different legal areas.

Bareeq: Yeah. And there's something to be said about being the best for yourself, like best version of you, because it's not good. The best is not going to be for the best for everybody. And really knowing yourself and what what you want to do. And last but not least, Thuy, what are your thoughts?

Thuy: Thanks, Bareeq. I'm going to echo what Rizzy said and just, again, hone in on the importance of going to events. And I don't want to call it networking. I hate that word of just connecting with people and getting to know people because you want to. I think as immigrants, the way we're taught by our parents is you just need to keep your head down, do your best work. And so it's very easy to be in a big law firm where there's a billable hours requirement to say, I'm not going to go to that happy hour. I'm not going to go to that alumni event because I should get this memo out or I should bill another two hours. But you know like Rizzy said one of the more important things is to get to know people it's for your career and this is your career you get what you put into it you know Casey Ryan our Global Managing Partner knows me by name but she doesn't know me because i do i draft a awesome real estate contract she knows me because i go to events when she's in town i go to see her When I'm seeing her, I'm seeing maybe other members of senior management, my own colleagues I grow up with, connecting with them, commiserating with them sometimes. Talking about our families and our dogs, what have you. Just having this community to lean onto to succeed together so that one day, if you need help or if they need help, they're there for you. It just makes this very big firm feel like a much smaller, comfortable home.

Bareeq: I love that. Thank you so much for all this wonderful advice. I know our listeners will really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Thuy, Rizzy, Julia, for sharing your incredible journeys and insights with us today. Your experiences and advice are invaluable to our listeners and to all those aspiring to make their mark in the legal field. Thank you to our listeners for tuning in to Inclusivity Included. Stay tuned for more episodes where we will continue to explore and celebrate diversity, equity, and inclusion. Until next time, have a great rest of the day.

Disclaimer:This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.

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Bareeq Barqawi, DEI talent development analyst at Reed Smith, is joined by Sarah Hassaine, head of global diversity and inclusion at ResMed, to explore Sarah’s remarkable journey and groundbreaking work in the field of diversity and inclusion advocacy. As April marks National Arab American Heritage Month, Sarah shares personal insights on how her cultural background has shaped her approach to fostering inclusion both personally and professionally. From championing health equity to addressing gender disparities and advocating for marginalized communities, Sarah offers practical strategies and invaluable advice for individuals and organizations seeking to drive positive change in their spheres of influence. Listen to this episode to gain valuable insights into the transformative power of inclusive leadership.

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Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

Bareeq: Welcome to Inclusivity Included, the Reed Smith DEI podcast. I'm your host Bareeq Barqawi today. In honor of April being Arab American Heritage Month, we have the privilege of speaking with Sarah Hassaine, the head of global diversity and inclusion at ResMed and a trailblazer in the realm of diversity and inclusion advocacy. Before we delve into our discussion, I'd like to introduce our esteemed guests to our listeners. Sarah has is a dynamic leader with a decade long track record in driving global diversity and inclusion initiatives. Currently leading a global team at ResMed, she consults, advises, and upskills leaders worldwide, designs and delivers in-house D&I trainings and evaluates policies to drive inclusion. Notable achievements include expanding Resmed's ERGs or employee resource groups from 4 to 17, increasing self ID percentages by 4% and spearheading initiatives to improve representation and advocate for accessibility. Sarah brings over 20 years of management experience with a focus on HR initiatives recognized as San Diego businesswoman of the year in 2022. She holds an MBA from Wharton Business School and outside of work, she enjoys traveling, speaking three languages and finds relaxation in sunny beach days with a good book. Today, she joins us to share her insights and experiences. Sarah, welcome to the podcast.

Sarah: Thank you. It's so good to be here. Thanks for having me.

Bareeq: Of course. I'm going to dive right in for the sake of time. Sarah as an Arab American, how has your cultural background influenced your approach to diversity and inclusion advocacy, both personally and professionally?

Sarah: Yeah, And I'm really excited and happy that we're talking about the Arab American identity. Growing up, you're, you were othered as Arab Americans. So it has helped me across my career because the beautiful thing about being an inclusion and diversity leader is that you're navigating a lot of conversations around people feeling othered, and it's any category, right? Whether it's a parent, a caregiver, a veteran, a reservist, a lot of us experience that and as an Arab American, our identity is not accounted for, right? We're, you know, we're in the Census in the US, we're accounted for as white, but we're not treated as white. Oftentimes, our names are misspelled. Uh We get a lot of questions, small microaggressions, A lot of stereotypes get cast. And as someone who grew up, you know, an American grew up in this country, uh it is very hard to constantly feel like, oh, well, you know, you guys do this or you're, you're being othered all the time. So that has definitely helped with empathy and helping me understand the communities I work with and being able to relate and show that kind of validation to, to everyone else.

Bareeq: Wonderful. As an Arab American myself, I can, I can only relate to it because I, I always say when people ask why we got into this line of work, I say, well, being excluded, majority of my life has, has uh made me want to have others avoid this feeling um and be as inclusive as we possibly can be. So, thank you for that. So can you share actually a specific moment or experience that was pivotal in your transition into the realm of inclusion and diversity advocacy?

Sarah: Yeah. So I was supporting a recruiting team uh in a past life at a, a large company. And what we started seeing organically, right was that we got less female applicants, we got less women engaging with us at conference booths and we really didn't have any women on the team. And it started kind of, you know, being this issue that the hiring managers, like we, you know, we're seeing other women going to other companies, but they're not coming here. And why is that? And we had to look inward and understand that our marketing material, the language, we, we were interviewing, we would, you know, candidates, but they would be meeting with six males and then they meet the team. And so then it wasn't actually feeling like an attractive, safe space or there was no representation. And that's when it hit me that you can be supporting business culture, you can be supporting a business, you know, in many different facets. But if the business doesn't have a culture where employees feel like they can belong, that to me was the crux of what I wanted to do. It just hit me. I'm like, this is what I wanna do. It started with women, but then it became about everybody else and everything else. Um So that was kind of my, my point and that was about 10+ years ago. Uh when I got to start working on commercials and advertisements and conference booths and really thinking about what is inclusive engagement look like. How do you attract talent so that they know that when they come in there's, they're going to have a sense of belonging?

Bareeq: I love that. That's so insightful. I think that's such a great, I guess segue into my next question because, you know, we talk about gender disparity and addressing gender disparities is a crucial aspect of advocacy work. And you often talk about encountering challenges in attracting entertaining women in the workplace. What strategies do you find most effective in addressing such challenges?

Sarah: Yeah, there's a lot of data around how women that are mentored, usually they actually stay, they're more loyal to their companies and they actually have more growth trajectory. I will say mentorship and intentional leadership development programs are really important. The second thing I would also talk about is succession planning. Companies need to really think about, okay, here's our workforce in this department. What are we doing to make sure there's an equitable opportunity for promotion for assessment uh of performance of assigning stretch assignments. And so it needs to be a level playing field for everyone. So in order to really develop, make sure that your female population is having the same access as all other genders, you wanna make sure that you have strong succession planning retention methods like learning and development and mentorship.

Bareeq: Wonderful. Thank you so much for those examples. Actually, in dedication to promoting health equity within ResMed's diversity and inclusion initiatives, can you elaborate on your efforts in this area and how you ensure that health care solutions and services provided by ResMed are accessible and inclusive for diverse communities, including those that are often actually um marginalized and underserved?

Sarah: Yeah, there are a couple of answers I want to dive into for this one. So the first one is really thinking about the diversity in our mask and sleep trials in order for us to really think about a product that, you know, we sell worldwide in over 150 countries. So we wanna make sure that we're designing a mask um that has a rep representation already. So there's been a lot of intentionality around marketing to different communities that they participate in your sleep trials and your mask trials. So it has to start at the base of your product and with your research. We also have an entire department dedicated to medical research. And they have done a great job in terms of looking at the disparities between different populations, whether it's um African American women or Hispanic, like we start looking at a location. Uh So we, we, we address health equity in different ways. So there's the research component, there's the product component and then there's, you know, the fact that our business model is different in every country to your point about underrepresented or underserved communities, really making sure that, you know, our, that providers are telling patients, hey, get sleep tested or have you thought about looking into, you know, maybe going to a storefront? Right. So it depends where we're selling. Uh, it varies. In the United States, we go through HMEs. And so we want to make sure that that our doctors are getting our patients either at home sleep tests or getting them come to come into sleep clinics.

Bareeq: That's great, especially that partnership between the doctors and your organization, um and bringing them into that conversation. Um So I know your work extends beyond the corporate realm into advocacy for marginalized communities. Um Can you share about your involvement with refugee communities, orphans and economic inclusion in the San Diego community specifically?

Sarah: Yeah, you know, the refugee space is something very dear to my heart. When I graduated college, I worked in refugee camps in Lebanon um for different communities, African, Iraqi, Palestinian, Lebanese at the time. And then I went back when the war in Syria was happening in 2016. And I worked for a couple of weeks teaching English. So the first time I did socio-economic assessments to understand what the needs were. The gaps I should say, then I went back and taught English. So the way I look at refugee assistance or assimilation is around empowerment. San Diego has one of the largest refugee communities in the United States. Um We have every community here possible; Burmese, Somali, Kurdish, Syrian, Iraqi, uh Bosnian. And growing up here, I saw the waves of communities come in. And so it was a lot around upskilling, trying to get jobs, trying to get the school, the kids to get, you know, um learn English, get mentors. So I partnered with Teach and Learn Literacy, which was actually an organization through the Arab American Anti Discrimination Committee and uh volunteered twice a week teaching a Syrian family of eight English and helping them get jobs. So I did that for a few years uh now from an economic inclusion lens as I grow in my career, I partner with different nonprofits. Um So there's like the United Women of South of East Africa, they have a community center, there's the Refugee Assistance Council. So there's, there are all these organizations that do that look for mentorships, they want internships for students. So there's a lot of opportunity for corporations like ResMed or others across San Diego. So we try to build bridges around access to information, access to jobs, to mentors. And that to me is really important to make sure that our talent in San Diego stays here, grows here, feels like the sense of belonging here. So that's uh that's kind of what I do outside of work.

Bareeq: No, I love that because it's, it's also a representative of the community within which you're you are working in and, and finding ways to actually include the community in, in the work that you're doing. And I think that's actually incredibly commendable. So thank you for sharing that. So I'm actually gonna just gonna dive into the next question, which actually has to do with this as well. And it combines a couple of things we already discussed, which is in promoting economic inclusion and pay equity, what are some practical steps organizations can take to achieve gender parity in the workplace? I know this is always, I guess like a hot topic when it comes to any really across all sectors. But I would love to hear your uh your insight on it.

Sarah: Yeah, you have to start with data, you have to start with an analysis. So my recommendation to those listening is to understand if your organization has done a pay equity analysis, um understand your your data breakdown, right within organizations, looking at the different gender breakdowns. Then you can start understanding whether you have a story or not, right? Oh, some companies will do that pay equity analysis and then they'll come back and realize, well, we've had, you know, we have this percentage of cases. It could be bad, it could be not bad, not as bad as you thought, right? But it's very, very important to start with data. So my recommendation is to understand your gender breakdowns within each business unit. And I don't necessarily, I'm not the biggest fan of setting exact goals like percentages like X percent. I think it's important to go to leaders and say, well, here's where you are right now and here's what the benchmark is in this organization. So if you're looking at a finance or you're looking at electrical engineering, the gender availability in the pool of talent is different to begin with. So you can't claim 50/50 when you don't even have 50% a female representation in electrical engineering, for example. So understanding what the benchmarks are, is really going to help you. And then you can kind of say Well, you know what, let's really try to build more of a robust pipeline. Let's be more intentional or let's sponsor this conference. So that's where you really need to start solution out. It's not a one size fits all for an entire company. You have to break down a company within the departments. And then you also need to think about the overall pay equity analysis and understanding what, where potential remunerations are and if you have to do any adjustments.

Bareeq: I really love that because you're also talking about kind of funneling it down to, to it's almost like a case by case basis, like looking at different departments or different for, let's say, let's say, for example, the legal industry, we look at different practice groups and what is the representation there to begin with before we kind of dive into what the data says. I think that's a really great point. So actually I had a question and this is going to be a little bit of a pivot. So we talk about the importance of stripping away assumptions and biases in this line of work. How can individuals and organizations actively to work toward this goal? I think it's something that I would say the word actively because it's a really a never ending process. Um But what are some, I guess tips and advice you have for people.

Sarah: You know, I see a lot of D&I leaders focusing on unconscious bias trainings and that's it's great, but they're not really proven to help or work. It is important to offer it and it's important to uh have frameworks in place. What I find more valuable is showing leaders framework so that they understand psychologically why we have built in biases. Biases are there. It's it's not good to shame anyone for having biases. So what I always do, my recommendation is to know how to navigate biases. So you need to look at each team and kind of think about, ok, talent acquisition, what are potential biases here? With resumes, here's what we could do to navigate this or with interviewing, here's what we can do to navigate biases. So kind of going back to the the gender equity, it's your solutions need to go, they are tailored to the part of the department or company that has built in biases, right? If we're talking in promotion season, uh what I've done at companies before where I am now and now is let's make sure you have that point, that person who's in the meetings to make sure that there are no biases in assessing talent. Let's make sure that you don't have any biases when you're discussing promotions. So that's, that's where it's really important is when you're having promotion conversations, a hiring conversations, development conversations. I will say, I think it's very important to repeat conversations around unconscious bias. I do this training at least twice a year globally and people show up and actually leaders ask for it. They're just like, can you come in and talk about it because biases show up even in the way we communicate. I mean, Bareeq, we started off this conversation talking about being Arab American. I can't tell you how many times people tell me, I don't look Arab like I don't even understand what that means. Right. So the biases are there. And I think the biggest thing we can also teach our employees is knowing how to navigate those conversations, in a safe way, right, as a coachable moment. You know, so that's where we don't want more microaggressions. We want safe conversations where people are learning from one another.

Bareeq: I couldn't agree with you more, especially about the repetition because I just learned in a change management workshop that something only sticks after it's been repeated to you seven times which, you know, and talking about bias, I agree. I've, I've always been of the mindset that I can't shame anyone for bias because I think bias is inherently human. Um And you can't, you know, human beings will have bias. It's really about providing, providing tool kits in order to create bias disruption. Um And that's something that I think is a, is a powerful tool to provide people and, and reminding them, you know, over the course of time like, hey, this is available and let's talk about it and kind of bring it to the forefront, especially in very pivotal moments in the company. So like when you talk about performance assessment or they're going into recruiting season or things like that, I think it's um it's always like an essential thing to keep it in mind. So I completely agree. Um So I had something about challenges that we, that we end up facing and overcoming. It's an inevitable part of this advocacy work. Can you share a challenging moment in your journey and how you overcame it?

Sarah: Only one?

Bareeq: I was about to say there's probably many but one that comes, yeah, whatever comes to mind.

Sarah: I mean, the biggest thing that comes to mind is, is budget, right? Resources. The biggest challenge I had was um being on D&I teams and not being funded, not given adequate support and being de prioritized. And I know um if there are any D&I leaders listening to this, I'm sure there are some heads nodding or uh it is the hardest thing because I don't believe that we are set up for successfully. Uh And so the, the, you know, the days I have very long days and the days where I end even more exhausted is because I felt like someone didn't show up to meeting or move me out again or delayed a solution. Uh that is hard. And the other hard part is when you know, you need support or you need head count or you need that, that money or you want to sponsor, it gets really hard when you want to sponsor something and you don't have money to do it. And so com companies need to be very committed if your company is saying that they're committed to D&I, well, you have to, you have to show up. Right. And so that's where I'll say the biggest challenges.

Bareeq: Yeah, I found that even, not just where I am currently but in other organizations I've worked for, it's, it's definitely a constant problem if either it's monetarily or like you said, having that support. And I found that kind of pivoting the conversation almost lately, especially like making it a business case brings some people to the table in a different way because they're like, oh, you know, I never thought of it this way. So it's almost like changing perspectives on people's approach to D&I. You, you sometimes hope it was, you know, people come into it like already being there, but to get people there, you kind of have to find different approaches I feel. And finally, as we wrap up, um so what advice would you give beyond what we've given, because this has been a wonderful key conversation, what would you give advice to individuals or organizations looking to become more active in promoting inclusion diversity within their spheres of influence?

Sarah: Just to make sure it's uh for companies, right?

Bareeq: Advice for, for companies, for individuals, you know, people that are working to become more influential in the organization.

Sarah: So for internal advocates or internal stakeholders and D&I leaders, there is the opportunity you there's to really understand the power of influence and persistence and no one can really succeed in D&I without that strategic business lens. Like you need to understand your business and by understanding the business, then you can adapt a conversation around. What does inclusion mean at this business? What does it mean? Whether for my products, for my people, for our policies? Uh So that's my biggest one for internal and then for companies, I will say it's very important that if your values call out inclusion, diversity, belonging, acceptance, accessibility, then you have to embed that across all your work streams. You have to really think about. It's not just a people practice, it's an every leader, every person practice.

Bareeq: Thank you so much. I love that because it's almost like building in the expectation in anything that you kind of approach within the company. I love that. Thank you so much, Sarah for sharing your valuable insights and experience with us today. It's been an honor having you on the podcast and we really, I think have taken away some wonderful, wonderful key tips and advice that we will definitely be using hopefully.

Sarah: This is a joy. Thank you so much, Bareeq for the opportunity.

Bareeq: Thank you. And that's all for today's episode of Inclusivity Included. Join us next time as we continue our exploration of diversity, equity and inclusion. Thank you for listening.

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Why is disability inclusion a business imperative? How can organizations harness allyship to dispel misconceptions and lay the foundation for meaningful representation?

In this podcast, we consider the business case for investing in disability inclusion – an often forgotten strand in corporate DEI efforts – and the importance of changing mindsets in order to ensure progress.

Our presenters delve into how organizations can pursue their business goals while investing in DEI by acting in a truly responsible manner and making effective use of the tools at their disposal.

Our host David Boutcher is joined by Vaibhav Adlakha, Joanne Christopher, and Carole Mehigan.

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Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

David: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Inclusivity Included. My name's David Boutcher. I'm a partner in the Reed Smith Global Corporate Group based in London. The title of this podcast is Diversity, equity and inclusion: Disability, a key focus for organizations. I've been involved with uh LEADRS, Reed Smith's Disability Group, since it began. And we thought it would be important to uh have a podcast as to why we think it's important to focus on, on disability, disability events, uh disability initiatives. Uh I'm joined by colleagues, Vaibhav Adlakha, Joanne Christopher, and Carole Mehigan. As they join the podcast, I will ask them to say a little bit about, about uh who they are as well. So I think um I'd like to kick off with talking about some of the specific events that we've had over recent years and the reasoning behind them and why we think they're really important and uh Vaibhav perhaps you'd like to kick us off on that.

Vaibhav: Thanks David. So as David mentioned, my name is Vaibhav Adlakha. I am an associate in our competition team here in London, but I also have an interest specifically in the diversity inclusion issues. I also have a physical disability and use a wheelchair. Now, I wanna begin with a personal, little personal thing. Before I joined Reed Smith and I thought about what my identity was going to be, I thought I only wanted to be a lawyer, but as I joined and began my journey here at Reed Smith, I realized that we have a platform to make the change what we want to see in the profession and be a leader in what we want, how we want people to see view the profession. As David often says, we are the best of a bad bunch. But I guess my goal was to try and create uh something where it is beyond my own success. It is a legacy that we can continue.

Just to spotlight on one of on some of our events, we started in doing our Disability Inclusion Summits in 2020. Um Necessity is the mother of invention. So uh during the pandemic, we wanted to celebrate International Day of Persons with Disabilities. And we, thought, what better way to do that when by discussing issues and creating an environment not only for our ourselves, but also for our clients and anyone who wishes to participate, to be honest, uh whether no matter how far you are in your disability journey, whether you have reservations, whether you're further ahead, whether you're converted. So that's the Disability Summits explored different topics. How it is to work in the pandemic. What is the myths of uh disability inclusion? How can you embrace the journey? What are some of the things that different clients have done in their journey to disability? So long story short, the the Disability Summits were done as a platform to of discussion no matter how, how far you are in that journey. And we believe that it's an important, important aspect to understanding what we can do better, how we can invest in education and especially disability education and how we can cut down boundaries.

If I can touch upon briefly on some of our other events uh that we have done, which is the allyship event on the importance of carers, allies and support groups. Uh This was basically done for the purpose of understanding the mindset of those who support vulnerable people, whether that's people with disabilities, uh parents, children. Because if you understand the mindset of those individuals who do it, regardless of the challenges, then you can be part of that super group, you can become part of being an ally. So that was the reason we did that as an event. And uh the importance of a career fair. Um Carole who will, who you will hear from did a specific career for fair for people with disabilities. And we wanted to do that simply because we are keen to uh cut down the barriers uh that people with disabilities face in education, in schools so that uh they, they can understand the aspirations that it you can have. And finally, we do uh understand the importance of learning and constantly improving, and that's why disability training sessions are not only important from a policy perspective as it is the right thing to do, but also so that it, it transfers down from people who work with you every day so that they understand what it is to work with people with disabilities. And we understand as well as people with disabilities, how we can, how we need to adapt to fit within the environment. Um So with that, I'll just hand over back to David to and David, I wanted to ask you about why from a Reed Smith perspective, because I've given the reason for the idea is that we had, but why from a Reed Smith perspective, it's important as a firm that we invest in disability inclusion?

David: Thanks Vaibhav. Yeah, I mean, I think um it's really important for so many reasons if you like both internal and external as far as uh the firm is concerned. uh Reed Smith is very proud of its culture and its core values. And I think to have these events and initiatives on issues and highlighting the challenges of people with disabilities really shows uh that culture and those core values uh in action. And also I think it helps uh educate our own people with regard to the challenges faced by people with disabilities. I think so often people feel as though they haven't come across people with disabilities and are actually unsure as to how to deal with those people. So I think most employers actually face a key challenge to, to address that issue. And I think professional services organizations like Reed Smith are particularly well placed. It's a bit of a cliché, but we often say we're a, we're a people business, which we are. And I think that means that we have a responsibility to talk to all of our people. But also the people with whom we interact, particularly clients about the challenges faced by people with disabilities. A as it’s often said, when talking about diversity, equity and inclusion, the one area of diversity which is often at the bottom of the list, and I'm, I'm afraid to say sometimes not even mentioned is the, the challenges in the area of people, people with disabilities. It is changing, it's not changing fast enough. Um So I think it's really important that we, that we, we focus on it uh as an organization. And I think also it's important in terms of training and education at multiple levels and, and, and I know, Vaibhav, you've had uh experience when you were training as to what you might be training for and what might be available to you uh as a person with a disability. And I think again, we have a responsibility as employer to demonstrate how people with disabilities can be included, work with colleagues and most importantly, be treated equally. And I think that is often the challenge that people are not sure how to accommodate people with disabilities. And it is often a fine balance between uh treating people equally. Uh But they're not treating them equally because they, if you like focusing on their disabilities and and unfairly making that um stand out and we only improve that by uh talking about these issues. And in terms of uh you know, having a platform where we can help change the mindset around people with disabilities as with any mindset. Actually, it's not something you're gonna change overnight. So I think it's important that we have a continuing program of initiatives uh and events where we talk about the many challenges faced by um people with disabilities. And of course, the whole area of disability itself is, is, is very complex, there are physical disabilities, there are mental hidden disabilities. And again, I just think historically, it's just not something that people have talked about and I think people want to hear other people's views, they want to be here uh about the experiences that people with disabilities have had. And the other really important thing is we want to make the most of people's talents and so many people with disabilities have unique talents. I, I've often said often somebody with a disability has had huge challenges in their lives, which they've met, you know, with gusto, they, it's given them great confidence and that actually gives the individual the kind of qualities that most employers would really want to have. So there are all sorts of positives to look at uh as well. But most importantly, unless we address this, we've almost got a whole lost sector of our population where we're not actually uh making the most of that uh of that talent. And I think it's really important to address it on so many levels. So as Vaibhav has said, we've had many different events and most recently we've been talking about support groups and allyship and representation.

Vaibhav: David I just wanted to make before you hand over to Carole, is you talked about how from a disability point of view, we we as firms, we need to understand what, during my training for instance, you said, what are you working towards? I think from a disability person perspective, it's also fundamental for, for us to understand how, how to work with an organization because in the end organizations or businesses. So it's more of a collaborative effort. And I think by doing these events uh or being on the inside, right, you can not only kind of make the profession of the firm or what you're aspiring towards. Uh you can mold that together as a, as a partnership, but also uh the wider perspective. Also, I was hoping we could talk about why clients think it's important to in that respect. So we can, we can discuss that at some point.

David: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, clients, uh as I mentioned earlier, I think it, it, it's, that's why again, it's important for the firm because I think that we need to share those experiences with clients and and ultimately, of course, it helps strengthen the relationship with clients. And again, where I welcome uh Carole’s comments, you know, that often comes down to other parties, support groups, uh allyship representation, which was of course the focus of the last disability event that we held. So Carole, perhaps you'd like to say a few words about that.

Carole: Thank you, David. Thank you Vaibhav. Thank you for having me on this podcast today. Um Delighted to be speaking with my wonderful colleagues. So my name's Carole Mehigan. I am the responsible business manager for our Europe Middle East and Asian offices. I am based in the London office. Um and I concentrate mainly on the London and our Leeds office where I host a multitude of events and um projects um across the area. So, concentrating on, on disability, really. I do a lot of student programs across the different age range. Um And during my time in doing my role at Reed Smith, I realized that, you know, disability is still slightly taboo amongst our students. I know young people, they don't actually realize that, you know, we're breaking those barriers down for them and that we're trying to ensure that they feel inclusive to, you know, going into a law firm and the legal sector uh has changed over the years. So working with schools who uh who predominantly work with students with disabilities and universities, who also focus a lot on a lot of students who have disabilities has been fantastic for us as a law firm because they were actually hitting that talent that seems to still be hidden away. And one of the reasons why I was so keen to do the disability career fair, um which we did um last year was because I wanted to really shine a light on those students and young people who don't feel that they are getting the focus enough or don't still feel like they would be welcomed into the legal industry. So actually focusing on them and giving them the opportunity to come into a place like where we work and to really speak to people from a diverse background, but also people with disabilities, myself being one. I was diagnosed in 2020 with neurodiversity and disabilities. So for me being an advocate in that respect as well, um and also supporting from, from the representation within Reed Smith, I thought was a very keen focus for me to make sure that students understood that we were a disability friendly organization. And David and Vaibhav have both touched upon the client engagement on the, at the disability fair. We did invite some clients who again are disability friendly. They wanted to promote that and show uh students what opportunities you can find within their organizations. So it really gave us a chance for us to talk about what we do, what we do in that space, what sort of opportunities there are for students with, with or without disabilities, but obviously focus a lot on on on disability side and also to encourage students and young people to feel like they can talk about their disability. They can actually bring that into the conversation and not be scared to hide, hide it in the background because they're worried that if they do say anything about their disability, then it will be frowned upon or they will be seen as a lesser candidate for any particular role within the business. So for me doing work uh with schools and with universities on the back of the disability fair, I'm now working with a school which exclusively has students. Every student has a disability. I'm now working with them to provide some of their students with work experience. So it's that continue of working with, you know, students and young people. So they understand that there are loads of opportunities, loads of great ways of them having an insight into our firm and, and hopefully that's going to continue. So that's what we're doing really on from the UK and the sort of Europe, Middle East and Asia side. I'm gonna hand over to Joanne who is one of our colleagues in the US for her to kind of give a little bit of more about what we're doing in the US with regards to disability.

Joanne: Thank you, Carole. Uh My name is Joanne Christopher. I'm the senior human resources manager in our Pittsburgh office. I'm also the HR liaison to our LEADRS disability employee resource group in the US. Of course, we do participate with our college in Europe in the Middle East and also in Asia um on our disability program. Um as as David mentioned, people with disabilities have amazing abilities by not including them or missing out on a vast talent pole. It's very important to have diversity of thought, uh diversity of culture, and people disabilities are part of that diversity that Reed Smith values. I know that a lot of employers uh when they hear about employing folks with disability, they immediately talk about the cost of accommodations. It's widely known that most accommodations cost less than $500 and some cost nothing at all. So there's no reason not to include these colleagues. Uh People with disabilities want to work and they have a lot to offer us. Here in the United States, uh we are very proud that we have received the National Organization on Disabilities uh Leading Disability Employer Recognition. We also are part of NOD’s Leadership Council and we've received 100% on the disability equality index through Disability: IN. And so, um it, it's not just a lot of talking words. Reed Smith really is putting into action a lot of initiatives to help our colleagues with disabilities because we value the gifts that they have to offer us. Some of the resources for our employers that we've developed, we've created this disability etiquette guide to help those people who aren't used to working with people with disabilities to be a little more comfortable to know how to approach a situation. We have institute of project ability where we work with clients on including a person with disability on each side of our client teams and the disability is only disclosed if the person wants to disclose that. So, you know, you could not know who the disabled person is on a particular project. We've created an accommodations resource to help other folks feel comfortable coming forward to request accommodations. It's a sample of a lot of the accommodations that we have across the firm. We also host weekly coffees and in those weekly coffees uh which again are available throughout our global platform, we get to know our colleagues. We offer support if someone is struggling or, you know, we just get to know each other if there is an oppressing issue that someone wants to bring forward. We have established subcommittees on accessibility, neurodiversity, peer support, recruiting, retention, and promotion and events and speakers here in the US, particularly in Pittsburgh, we partner with St. Anthony's School at Duquesne University to provide vocational training opportunities for college age students who uh have down syndrome autism or other intellectual disability by hosting them here in an internship program where they're learning a lot of job skills, uh how to dress for the world of work. Uh Some of those, those non uh visible types of things that you need to bring to a job, like being on time, how to get to and from work and those kinds of things. But more than that our employees just love when, when the students are here and it gives them an opportunity to work side by side with people with disabilities. Um We've also partnered with Special Olympics to host bocce tournaments. We have different awareness days and um again, we have a process to uh support all of our employees, those with disabilities and those without. So, so that's a little bit of what we're doing here in the US.

Vaibhav: From a student perspective. You, you really, and this is me speaking not being a Reed Smith employee, you really don't understand how important those kind of events are working with your working with the schools and doing a career for solely for people with disabilities because what happens is they don't know what they can be. Uh, if me coming from India, living in the Netherlands, I didn't even realize I could be a lawyer because I didn't know what professions were open to me. And so from a student perspective, if, if you have uh an environment or uh have clients who are willing to say, you know, these are the career paths that you can have. They, not everybody is probably gonna be a lawyer, not everybody is going to be uh someone in the legal profession or a partner or something like that. But at least they have aspirations to, to know who they can be. And for someone with a disability who, who, who can, who sometimes is not allowed to see beyond just what, what he, she can't do that. That is invaluable. I think before we close, I, I wanted to ask David one thing about how, because a lot of organizations talk about these are our business goals, these are our diversity goals. And if we invest too much in diversity, especially in our legal profession because they, they charge every minute unfortunately, but uh and every second that you're actually working, how, how do you deal with the fact that someone with a disability may take longer may not be as efficient? And how do you then figure out that, that your business goals and your diversity goals can be one?

David: Well, I think it, and thanks Vaibhav, I think it even goes wider than that. I mean, as uh Joanne was talking, I was thinking about uh ESG environmental social governance, which we advise a lot of our, our clients on. And I think in terms of when it comes to goals uh related to the accommodation of people with disabilities which Vaibhav has just touched on, they really have to be integrated fully into all of our business goals. And this is the mistake. I think that so many organizations often make that uh they just focus on if you like their corporate and social responsibility actions rather than integrating these issues throughout their business. So uh I think as Joanne mentioned, we have this uh project ability initiative where we have, you know, uh somebody with a disability working on, on, on, on each matter, we have uh initiatives working with clients uh where we're discussing and championing the causes of people with disabilities. And I think also we're educating one another on uh as I touched on early treating people with disabilities equally because again, answering Vaibhav’s point about uh how we uh accommodate the challenges of people with disabilities within our own business goals. It's as we accommodate all people within our business goals because no one is perfect and uh all people have strengths and weaknesses. It just so happens that we're where you come to a person with a disability, their weakness is often focused on that disability. But other people's weaknesses may be focused on the fact that they don't have the greatest talent in certain areas, but they've got a much stronger talent in other areas. And as we would say, it's horses for courses and it, when it comes to people with disability, it's not saying, well, they're actually a completely different animal separately and we must kind of somehow have a separate initiative for them. Well, no, they're just, they're part of all of our people. Uh And the way we accommodate them is the way we accommodate everybody and everybody needs some kind of accommodation because as they say, nobody is perfect. And, and I think that one thing I've learned from working with a number of people with disabilities is that that's kind of the number one thing that they really want is to be treated equally and, and on parity with, with, with everybody else. And I think we're moving in that direction when I say we, I mean, society generally, and I think that's why the whole ESG initiative now is great because that is all about how businesses can not only operate themselves independently in doing the right thing, but how they impact all their stakeholders and the wider society and community at large. And I think work in uh helping and highlighting the challenges of people with disabilities fits into that so well, because there are so many issues to be addressed. And as Vaibhav has alluded to so many ways in which we can, uh we can influence wider society um for the better.

Vaibhav: So it's all about adapting and adapting the way, seeing the ability in others and adapting your working practices about adapting your mindset. And my one final question, because this is something I'm really passionate on is, Carole and Joanne, I think I, I think I wanted to understand because having every organization has a, has a CSR Corporate Social Responsibility or, or responsible business. These are, these are tools that every organization kind of has. And for me, I, I always think that if you can focus on a cause and use the tools you already possess as an organization, you can make a difference. How do you think uh in terms of what we are trying to achieve from a responsible business perspective, helps prepare society and businesses to embrace diversity, inclusion and become better allies.

Carole: I, I don't mind starting first. So I think, you know, we, we as a firm, we see responsible business is a way of life. It's a way of us showing our culture and of a firm and how we want to provide support for, for each other. So we see it that, you know, we are a business that wants to be responsible for the wider community and that includes uh young people and students, et cetera um in the disability arena. We want to, we don't want anyone to feel excluded. You know, for, like I said, for a long time, especially students and young people who do have disabilities have been afraid to say it. They've been afraid to say on an application form or when they're being interviewed. And the, the, the problem then you have is how can you support somebody if you don't know that they need that support. So as a responsible business, as you know, we have to ensure that people understand that, you know, bring your true self to the workplace. You know, when you are applying somewhere, if you feel that you can't be completely honest and open about what you know yourself and if you have a disability, it may be not the right place for you and with working with other organizations such as clients, for example, who are also thinking in the same way that we are, you know, makes that uh collaboration with our clients, not just from a client service perspective, but also from the fact that we're organizations all trying to meet the needs of a particular demographic of people who feel like they're still outsiders.

So I think being responsible for the wider community in whatever way you can bring in our community internally, to meet the external community is really important. And it also allows us as a community internally to show that we already have lots and lots of people with disabilities of all sorts, whether it's visible, invisible neurodiversity, whatever it may be and how, you know, how much they have made a success of their careers, you know, shining that light out there, letting other people know you could follow in the same footprints you could follow down the same career path is really, really important. So it's not just a case of talking the talk, you need to walk the walk, you need to do that by showing how you're going to do that. And the only way you can do that is like doing events like we've done already uh finding ways to get into the community and show what you can provide them and what they can provide to us. Because you know, even with having a disability of any sort, you bring a unique talent to the table, you know, we all bring something to the table and having disability is already a challenge for you as a person. So when you can bring that to the table and be successful in your career, choice of career, I think just shows that, you know, you have resilience, you, you can champion yourself and you can really go, you know, help other people to feel that they can do the same thing. I'll hand over to Joanne at this point.

Joanne: The one thing I would say is a professional services firm, we are in the people business. So we need to take care of our people so that they can do the best work that they can do. Disability cuts across all corners of our lives. It's socio-economic, it's diverse groups. It's every ethnic background. There are people with disabilities in every corner and these people have a lot of gifts to offer and we need to support them.

Vaibhav: As a final comment for me, this working on disability is not a silo. Every aspect of your organization can work on it whether you have pro bono uh projects that focus on disability, responsible business projects or simply come up with a legal initiative and do something like training for your employees so that they can better understand. But it's a two sided training. We, we as people with disabilities need to understand how it is to work in an organization and how it is to adapt. Whereas the organization has tools that are already there for them to focus on the ability of people. And that's something organizations do anyway, because they, they focus on who the person can be and what tools they can provide. So through this podcast, I hope that a lot of organizations who or people who are listening gain the confidence that you have the tools within your organization within yourselves to actually make a difference to anyone, let alone people with a disability and, and work and adapt to make professions better than when we found them, when we enter that each of us uh from our experience. So with that, I thank everybody for listening to our Inclusivity Included podcast. You will find a whole range of podcasts on Inclusivity Included, our podcast channel discussing a wide variety of issues to do with disability, and diversity, equity and inclusion. And I, I have enjoyed working uh talking discussing about this with my colleagues. So thank you very much and thank you for listening.

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We delve into the transformative initiatives undertaken by LexisNexis to shape the landscape of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) in the legal industry. Our guest, Adonica Black, director of global talent development and inclusion at LexisNexis, shares insights into the organization’s commitment to fostering a culture of inclusion, supporting law firms in their DEI efforts and making a significant impact through innovative programs like the LexisNexis African Ancestry Network and LexisNexis Rule of Law Foundation Fellowship. Join our host, Bareeq Barqawi, for a thought-provoking conversation on the current state and future trends of DEI in the legal sphere.

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Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

Bareeq: Welcome to Inclusivity Included our DEI podcast at Reed Smith. I'm your host, Bareeq Barqawi. And today we have the honor of hosting Adonica Black, the Director of Global Diversity and Inclusion for LexisNexis Legal and Professional. Adonica's journey is an inspiring blend of legal expertise, commitment to diversity and inclusion and a passion for justice. Welcome, Adonica.

Adonica: Thank you so much, Bareeq. Very happy to join you.

Bareeq: Thank you. Um So let's kick things off by discussing your role as the director of Global Diversity and Inclusion at LexisNexis. How is your personal and professional journey influenced your approach to fostering a culture of inclusion within organizations?

Adonica: Yes. So my background is a bit unique because I have a legal background. Um I formerly was in litigation before joining LexisNexis. So I have the perspective of both um a practitioner as well as from the business perspective and the value of diversity, equity and inclusion in both arenas. So when transitioning into the business of the law through LexisNexis, um I started actually working with our largest clients. I'm based in the Washington, D.C. area and started working um on very straightforward kind of business development with our clients. And in those conversations and experiences had the opportunity to connect with so many different attorneys in different practice areas and discuss their, you know, the value system that they bring to their practice. And in those conversations uncovered this emerging more explicit value. I think it's the value has always existed but more explicitly stated value around a culture of inclusion in the practice of law and a want to achieve justice. And that really led me on my professional journey towards where I am currently as the global Director of Inclusion and Diversity for LexisNexis as an opportunity arose within the organization to really exemplify those values that have existed in, in myself and in the profession through this specific role.

Bareeq: That's amazing, especially because having that knowledge and background, I think makes you even more equipped to understand different perspectives that come into DEI especially in the legal industry. So LexisNexis has demonstrated a really strong commitment to diversity and inclusion. Can you highlight one or two key initiatives or actions that LexisNexis has undertaken recently to promote that culture within the organization?

Adonica: Yeah, so as a business, we think about our culture of inclusion um through four pillars, what we call um our foundational pillar of making sure that our vision of our culture is strong and our leadership's commitment and accountability to our culture of inclusion is also strong. And then we have focus on external making sure that our external participation with our customers and the external community supports our culture of inclusion. So as a business, our mission is to advance the rule of law. And we like to say we're creating a more just world. And so that ties very well with our commitment and our value system of a culture of inclusion. And then the third pillar is internally, we're really focused on attracting retaining and developing all talent that supports diverse inclusive business processes and our and our business overalls representation of our talent. So that means anyone that is willing to make sure that they're an inclusive leader or a contributor is important to us. And we really focus on our processes to support achieving and attracting that great talent. And then our final pillar is around continuous improvement and assessment because we are very aware that as other fields evolve. D&I also needs to evolve because it needs to reflect the evolution of equity and inclusion as we move forward as a culture. So those four pillows just kind of over arch all of the programming, all of the initiatives and all of the actions that we take within our DEI work.

And so two programs that I could share that I'm really proud of um include our work around developing our talent um into senior leadership. So we've just had completed a program this past year, around, and we will continue, around developing women who have displayed high potential talent in our organization and partnering them with men who are already senior leaders as sponsors and allies to help them grow in their careers. We call that our lead program. We received a gold award um from Brandon Hall, which is a very well respected human capital initiative organization throughout the business world. And in the program itself, like I said, we've paired women with male leaders and we've seen these women go through developmental opportunities to help them grow in their own talent, help make seed in their professional performance and development. And then also we've also developed our male leaders who also have grown more inclusive and more equitable in their leadership. So we've seen great progress and great results from this program because we've been able to help both sides of the perspective in terms of the program develop their skills as a leader and as a contributor.

Another program I'd love to highlight is our partnership with our Enabled employee resource group, which is our employee resource group focused on different differing abilities within our talent force. Our Enabled employee resource group has really led our business to be more inclusive in how we produce our product. So they've actually partnered with our product and technology teams to help make sure that our actual product or actual technology and reason sources that are available to our customer community are accessible and in a couple key ways, um making sure that they're visually accessible and then also making sure that they are accessible for differing needs for different attorneys. And that has been amazing because it really has solidified what we like to call the business case for diversity equity and inclusion because we're able to reach a broader customer base and a broader audience and serve their needs. But also having that varied perspective has allowed us to evolve as a business to make sure that we're building in these inclusive features throughout our product.

Bareeq: Wow, that's incredible work. Um I'm honestly just, it's just delightful to hear that there's uh organizations working on these kind of things, especially when it comes to gender equity and inclusive leadership and digital accessibility, which we actually uh highlighted in another episode on our podcast. So, so given your expertise, what notable trends are emerging in the legal industry regarding diversity and inclusion um especially considering recent challenges and attacks on DEI following that Supreme Court decision on Harvard and UNC.

Adonica: It's interesting where we are as a, I like to say, as a function within diversity equity inclusion. And then of course, where we are as a nation. Um I live in the United States, where we are in the world um globally, all of those perspectives and how these recent Supreme Court decisions have contributed to this. Um from my perspective, the recent Supreme Court decisions very clearly and obviously affect higher education, right? And business in the business world relies upon higher education to produce the available talent to us. And it's disheartening to see the ways in which the Supreme Court has changed what we can expect from higher education without providing any kind of real guidance around how to move forward. So I do see in higher education, um leaders are struggling with how to deal with this and how to continue to espouse their values of diversity and inclusion while being legally compliant. That of course bleeds over into the business world because it, it's persuasive authority in a way and for people who may have wanted to roll back DEI practices to now refer to this decision as a reason to do the same in the business world. And I do think it's very clear just in the way in which the courts and the cases are evolving that this will be addressed in the courts at some point. What I think this has done though is it's created this like forced maturity and DEI work that I think was already evolving and um iterating. But at with this decision, it has really created this point where it's become necessary um to evolve our processes to be inclusive across the board and really strengthen DEI work. And so I've seen from our business, our values remain our commitment to our culture of inclusion remains and it has allowed us to open our aperture and think about structurally making sure all of our processes are inclusive and that benefits everybody that doesn't just benefit people that you may think of as typically diverse talent. I like to think that everyone has diverse characteristics and different dimensions of diversity. So everyone is benefiting from these more strong inclusive processes.

So just to kind of ground that in a in a very tangible way, as a business, we are evolving our recruiting processes to make sure that we are instituting structured interviewing across the board for all roles, for all segments in our business and structured interviewing essentially means that everyone who is applying for a specific role has the same interview experience. So we're making sure that we ask the same question. We have the same kind of cadence of conversations and we have the same objective measurements to measure all of our candidates. So that makes the process better for everybody in my opinion, at least for us to achieve greater outcomes because we'll get the objectively best candidate. And it allows for the elimination of biases that may have crept into the process when it was more subjective. So the changes in the law has really precipitated the need for strengthening our processes and DEI work. And I think that will actually lead to greater outcomes. But there's a lot of growing pains as well. I'm sure, you know, happening right now in, in this area.

Bareeq: Absolutely. It is, you know, it's a great way. It's a great perspective. And I think it's a really optimistic perspective that you brought forth, which is that I know you mentioned like force maturity, which I, I love the way you put that. But essentially it, it forced us all to audit our own DEI programs to see what is effective, what is impactful and to reassess making sure things are aligned with our values because the need is still there. It's just finding out, you know, how can we remain inclusive, remain true to our goals and missions. And then like you said, strengthen that foundation. So let's shift gears a little bit to the LexisNexis African Ancestry Network and LexisNexis Rule of Law Foundation Fellowship, uh which I had the great privilege of uh going to the retreat and getting to see it firsthand. Can you delve into the impact of the fellowship program and perhaps even share a success story or two from the recent cohorts?

Adonica: Absolutely. And I'm so excited that you joined us for our, what we call our Innovation Retreat. I'll just give a little background on the program itself. Sure, the LexisNexis African Ancestry Network and LexisNexis Rule of Law Foundation Fellowship is an extension of our commitment to eliminate systemic racism in the legal system and build a culture of inclusion and diversity within our own organization. So, the initiative was launched in 2021 in partnership with the Historically Black Colleges and Law School Consortium and it includes all six law schools within that consortium and the National Bar Association, which is the largest professional association of Legal Practitioners um of Black or African descent globally. And the program is focused on developing solutions to address those systemic inequities that exist within our legal system. And so we've had the privilege of working with Reed Smith as one of our foundational partners to support this program. And as you mentioned, we host an Innovation retreat usually in the spring where our fellows meet at our Raleigh Tech Center and meet with our technology and product teams and engineers and really deep dive into LexisNexis, technology and resources and learn how to utilize those resources to address the issue that they're focused on within their fellowship program. We also get the bilateral benefit of our fellows also providing a diverse perspective on the utilization of our tools and technology to our talent and our teams that are able to then like I said, make, build stronger products, representing um our diverse customer base.

So the fellows are organized um into five key areas that I like to call kind of cradle to grave systemic legal issues that uh address address challenges in our legal system, starting with our Gavel League team, which our, our team is focused on developing an app that provides early childhood legal education to the community overall. Because we've done research um empirically and subjectively that has determined that some of the lack of representation in the legal system with regard to diverse attorneys in in the profession, stems from childhood experiences and kind of a lack of awareness or even a diversion to the practice of law. And so that mobile application that they're building is designed to increase literacy and comprehension of the rule of law and critical legal concepts that children encounter. And that also may assist their parents and guardians with their rights and representation as well.

The second project is I, Too, Sing America and that project is focused on uncovering untold us history through the law and creating more culturally competent attorneys. So this is for once you've reached the stage of being in law school and you're getting your legal education. Our fellows, there are focused on creating an accessible repository of inclusive curriculum resources including racially diverse case law that will help increase their awareness of cultural differences and nuances in the law itself and build that more culturally competent lawyer across the board, benefiting all attorneys and future attorneys in law school.

Our third project team is called the Pathways to Practice Pipeline and they're focused on building bridges for HBCU students to legal fields that lack diversity in their representation. So this is the stage where you are, you know, out of law school and you're now in the profession and you're thinking about ascending to leadership levels in the profession, how do you increase the diversity of the professionals that are in practice? Um And they're focused on partnerships with corporate law, the judiciary, um and judicial clerkship opportunities and then large law opportunities as well. So thinking about where do we lack representation and how do we build those pipelines to strengthen the, the talent that is coming into these into the profession itself.

Fourth project, technology solutions to alleviate racial bias in jury selection. This team um is doing really exciting work leveraging artificial intelligence, um machine learning and data analytics to analyze representative juries by jurisdiction and provide data analytics tools to practitioners to help them achieve a representative jury and that constitutional right for their client. So they're analyzing currently, they've analyzed um North Carolina, California, Louisiana and New York. And we're planning to build that that out to other jurisdictions to look at what is a representative jury look like based on your jurisdiction and provide practitioners with a resource to then be able to advocate on behalf of their client um at that level of trial proceedings.

And then our final group is focused on legal clinic, support tools to combat systemic racism in the legal system So we started with kind of cradle and this ends it at grave level where we're thinking about how do we um provide legal clinics with resources to enhance their pro bono work that may contribute to estate planning, um intellectual property, appraisal biases, court proceedings and some other areas, key areas that we're looking at in terms of access to justice and how many people are able to access justice, which is usually through a legal clinic or a low cost clinic to help them achieve um legal representation. So we've got a full spectrum of projects and a really robust team of both fellows and mentors from within LexisNexis building and working on these projects as, as a overall fellowship program.

Bareeq: Thank you so much um for sharing that and for thoroughly describing it, I uh I got to go myself just to, I got a taste of it when I went to the retreat and it was um a really eye opening experience. I mean, we already know that we, we operate unfortunately in a system of, of systemic racism and, and uh and oppression. But to see the ways that the projects in the fellowship were, were based on deliverables and based on um that mentorship piece and being able to uh see what the future could look like and working toward it. I thought it was just uh really great to see um and really impactful.

Adonica: Thank you so much for joining us. It was wonderful to have your perspective and your overall firm support to really help us ground the work that we're doing in practical application.

Bareeq: Yes, absolutely. And actually based on, on that topic, on your, based on your experience, what advice would you give to law firms aiming to enhance their diversity and inclusion efforts? Are there like specific strategies or some best practices that you believe could make a substantial impact?

Adonica: Oh, that's such a large endeavor. I think there's quite a few things that law firms can do and things that I've seen work really well within law firms that I think should just grow in practice. Um So I would start with assessment and goal setting. I think that having very clear assessment indicators around how law firms are performing with regard to their DEI efforts is important. So demographic data, I know law firms do a lot of survey surveys um and capture that kind of data but also deeper dive into things like who's working on what kind of substantive projects who, who has partner support or mentorship sponsorship and trying to quantify those sometimes intangible development opportunities, I think provides a strong assessment of current performance and areas to highlight and focus upon. And I know law firms are doing really great work on evolving how they're looking at developing their diverse talent from just capturing high level demographic data to actually going a line below and looking at substantive um opportunities that has come about for the different demographics and then also what mentoring opportunities. Um And the like that I mentioned, I think of course continuing with inclusive recruitment practices, I've seen Reed Smith, for example, do that very well in reaching out to a diverse set of law schools, not just from typical, diverse standpoints, but also geographically. Um maybe even quote unquote tier wise, so that you're reaching all levels of talent that could bring great perspective to the practice in the firm. I mentioned mentorship and sponsorship. I think having formal mentorship and sponsorship programs and formalizing those opportunities are important because without that, they tend to slip into maybe some biased practices where some achieve mentorship and sponsorship and some don't. So I think kind of codifying those programs and making them inclusively accessible is very key to developing all law firm talent.

And then I think thinking about the culture within the law firm is very important because law firms are interesting because there's kind of maybe two segments of firm employee, right? There's what you have, what you may call the timekeepers and people who are practicing law, and then you have people who are running the business of the law firm and there may be separations in that culture, but creating that kind of one team approach and inclusive environment really strengthens the overall law firm performance. Um So I think those are some really great things law firms can do to support their culture of DEI, I also think flexibility. I know the the practice of law and the profession gets a bad rep for not being um super cutting edge. But I actually think that the practice of law law firms in the legal profession has done very well with extraordinary circumstances in the past few years and adapting to those circumstances. So I'd love to see the continual adaptation and kind of evolution there with regard to flexibility. I don't think we should go back to a previous version of practicing law. I think the flexibility helps grow the practice. And I think it shows in the numbers I law firms are doing well in terms of financial performance and they're growing. So that flexibility, I think is key to that as well.

Bareeq: You know, I was just talking to somebody about this because uh sometimes at law firms, I find it more um blatant to see, but there is sometimes an um a way to approach work that there creates some sort of a generational divide. Um And I think especially since in the last few years, the younger generations are working toward more of a work life balance and flexible model. Um But people that didn't grow up in that struggle to fully understand that because it is not what they knew. So um finding a way to kind of bring people in and create that sense of belonging within the culture, I think is a challenge law firms are facing. But like you said, I think it's something they're addressing and, and kind of working uh forward with and evolving because I don't think things can unfortunately stay the same. Things are, you know, going to have to hopefully improve for the better. And that being said, my, my last question today is uh we talked about it a little bit earlier about the business case. So diversity and inclusion are often touted as beneficial for business. And from your perspective, why are these principles good for business and what tangible advantages can organizations gain by fostering those diverse and inclusive cultures?

Adonica: Yeah, I absolutely believe in the business case for diversity equity and inclusion. There have been so many empirical analysis and studies around how the increase of diversity equity and inclusion that are measured by those indicators we talked about has also correlated with the increase of financial performance, employee engagement, employee retention, um innovation, all of those things that lead to stronger, a stronger business. I also think about just from a practical standpoint where we are in the world, where we are as a kind of a global culture. One of the recent data points that I've heard that really has stuck with me is the wealth transfer that we're facing as at least as a nation. Um and I think likely globally within the next decade as that and and it will be the largest wealth transfer in our in history, right? So as baby boomers transfer their wealth to kind of the millennial generation, that huge transfer of finances will lead to different people having stronger purchasing power. And I do think younger generations absolutely make decisions based on values in addition to finances. And so for a business to be able to succeed into that next generation, businesses need to think strongly about their value system and demonstrate those values because those younger generations are very much evaluating based on performance and action, not just on words. So I think that it's very clear when you think about does a business survive into the next decade into the next millennium, that diversity equity and inclusion will remain a a value system through which people evaluate whether they're gonna be a customer. So to be a successful business, those values need to be authentic and practice and grow.

Bareeq: Well said, I love that especially the the tying the wealth transfer in the generations to come to DEI. Fantastic. Thank you, Adonica for sharing your valuable insights today. It's been such an enlightening conversation on diversity and inclusion and the impactful work you and LexisNexis are doing. And to our listeners, thank you so much for joining us on Inclusivity Included. Stay tuned for more inspiring conversations with leaders shaping the future until next time.

Adonica: Thank you so much.

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In this episode, we delve into the critical intersection of law and technology, exploring the multifaceted landscape of digital accessibility. Joining Bareeq Barqawi, Reed Smith’s DEI talent development analyst, are three distinguished panelists: Angie Matney, counsel in the Entertainment and Media Industry Group at Reed Smith; Jamie Dean, senior corporate counsel on Microsoft’s Accessibility Regulations team; and Ken Nakata, an accessibility consultant with Converge Accessibility and a former U.S. DOJ attorney. Discover key legal considerations, collaborative challenges, and proactive measures for enhancing accessibility in the digital landscape with our insightful panel.

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Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast. Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

Bareeq: Welcome to another episode of Inclusivity Included, Reed Smith's podcast on fostering diversity, equity and inclusion. I'm your host, Bareeq Barqawi DEI talent development analyst at Reed Smith. Today we're diving into the realm of digital accessibility and accessibility audits, joined by three incredible experts in the field.

I'm delighted to have Angie Matney, Reed Smith counsel in the Entertainment and Media Industry group. Joining us today with a focus on information, privacy, data, security, and digital accessibility. Angie supports clients across diverse sectors including health care, entertainment, retail and finance. She's also a part of our LEADRS, business inclusion group, supporting professional and personal development of individuals with all types of disabilities at the firm and as someone with a complete loss of sight.

Joining us also is Jamie Dean, senior corporate counsel on Microsoft's accessibility regulations team with a wealth of experience, Jamie champions accessibility and technology, drawing from his personal journey as a person with a loss of sight and his extensive legal and rowing background.

And I'm also thrilled to welcome Ken Nakata, former senior trial attorney with the US Justice Department's disability rights section. Recognized for developing nationwide ADA policies for the internet and spearheading accessibility in federal government IT. He's also a founding board member of the International Association of Accessibility Professionals.

Welcome everyone. So let's get started. I'm going to ask Angie the first question and as counsel in the Entertainment and Media Industry group at Reed Smith, Angie from a legal standpoint, what are the key legal considerations that companies should be aware of in terms of regarding digital accessibility?

Angie: Thanks Bareeq. Yeah. So the I would say one thing to keep in mind is that the legal landscape is uh you know, there are several different laws that might implicate digital accessibility considerations. And then within that though, there are different interpretations of some of those. And so I think it can be a little bit overwhelming at first maybe to, to navigate and, and that's where, you know, counsel can definitely assist. And so the types of laws that involve digital accessibility, we have civil rights laws and we have procurement laws and now we're seeing more, you know, consumer privacy laws and regulations that look at that as well.

So in the civil rights arena and the non-discrimination area, it would be, of course, the Americans With Disabilities Act, that's what most people in the US sort of automatically think of when you start to talk about accessibility. And, you know, the ADA there's been a, a long history that we definitely uh don't have time to fully go into here. But suffice to say there have been sort of different interpretations and proposed interpretations as to when uh a website, for example, has to be accessible to be compliant with the law. Does that require that the website somehow have a nexus to a physical location or do online businesses have accessibility obligations under the ADA and those are questions that have been answered differently by different courts.

And then on also at the other civil rights laws that come into play, it might be something like the federal Rehab Act that has some accessibility requirements for recipients of federal financial assistance.

And then there's some industry specific acts that uh include accessibility obligations like the Air Carrier Access Act. And then uh arguably like section 1557 of the Affordable Care Act for in the healthcare space. At the state level, we've got a lot of those same kinds of civil rights laws that may uh require digital accessibility. Then there are states like Colorado where there's a very specific, you know, procurement requirement that if a state agency is looking to obtain a some kind of technology, uh digital accessibility has to be a consideration and then pretty recently too, we've seen in uh some regulations under some of the new privacy laws that have been passed in different states of requirement for accessibility.

So these laws like the California Consumer Privacy Act, and then again, going back to Colorado, the Colorado Privacy Act, the main aim of these statutes is to give consumers, you know, transparency and control over how their data is being processed by covered companies. And these laws do under their regulatory regimes involve an accessibility requirement, which makes sense if you think about it, because if consumers are supposed to be able to understand how their data is being processed and make choices about that, then without an accessibility requirement, not all consumers may be able to participate in, in those kind of processes. So that's sort of a very brief overview of the legal landscape.

Bareeq: Thank you so much, Angie, some great insights and some really, really great examples. So now let's turn to Jamie. Jamie as someone who has worked as outside counsel on accessibility matters, what challenges do organizations commonly face when striving for accessibility compliance?

Jamie: Yeah, that's a great question. And there's, there's a number of different challenges uh that folks face when they're trying to make their digital properties accessible. I'd say one of the primary ones, and Ken's insights here would be really interesting because I know this is something that's near and dear to his heart, is while there are industry standards for accessibility, like the web content accessibility guidelines or in Europe en 301 549.

On the United States side, we haven't clearly incorporated those requirements into some of our landmark legislation like the Americans With Disabilities Act. And there's rule making um that's underway right now to look at whether the web content accessibility guidelines should be adopted as a standard for some purposes under the ADA but not for all.

And so what I found most often when I was outside counsel was that I had clients who really wanted to make their websites and apps accessible, but they weren't sure what standard to follow that would both make the website accessible and protect them from litigation. Because let's be honest, litigation is a huge problem in this this sphere. Problems, maybe not the right word. Challenge. Issue. Some of that litigation is really, I would say uh important and impactful. And I think everybody in this space would say some of that litigation is uh questionable. You know, it's benefiting the lawyers but it's not benefiting anyone else.

So I think when you're, we're talking about making your website accessible, the the this challenge of not having a clear standard is a really big one. And then the other is just the lack of understanding, accessibility isn't something that most people are familiar with. Unless you have a disability or grew up around people with disabilities, you might not even understand what it means. And in fact, I got into this work because simply because I'm a blind person and, and a blind lawyer doing commercial litigation. And so as our clients started to see litigation in this area, no one knew what it meant. And they were reaching out to me saying, hey, you're blind, you use the internet. What is this?

So I, I think there's a lack of understanding with accessibility that folks just haven't had enough exposure to it. And unlike if, if you or I were to go to a physical building and it had a ramp or an elevator, we would see that, right? And we would understand. Oh, that's the, the purpose of this is to help people who have mobility based disabilities.

Well, a website whether or not it's accessible if you're a sighted user and you're using a mouse and I'm not sort of using any type of assistive technology. You might not see any difference in the website versus a person with a disability. So it's sort of hard to recognize it. It's hard to know when something is accessible or not if you're not a person with a disability. And we just have a long way to go and helping the general public understand what it means for websites and other digital content to be accessible.

Bareeq: Thank you, Jamie. Some really great points there. Uh Now let's bring in Ken. Ken as an accessibility consultant with a technical background what methodologies or tools do you commonly employ during accessibility audits and how do these contribute to ensuring compliance?

Ken: Yeah, thanks Bareeq. I'll answer the question and I'm, I think I'm I'll chime in and talk about some of the things that Jamie just mentioned also. But from my perspective, as an accessibility consultant, accessibility reviews, always, they always have to start with a manual audit and that can be really labor intensive and it requires testing with different screen readers and multiple other types of assistive technologies across different operating systems. And now both mobile and desktop devices.

A lot of the later WCAG requirements in 2.1 are really focused on mobile testing. It's only after fixing those issues and a manual review does automated testing, which is the first thing most people just naturally gravitate towards. It's only there that it, I think it really becomes useful. But a complete solution really does require both really careful manual testing to really catch the significant issues. But then I think it also from a legal perspective, you really also need automated testing. Because what I've noticed is that a lot of the serial plaintiffs, the attorneys representing the serial plaintiffs, I should say sometimes often, well often triage their cases using automated testing tools.

So that's one, that's one reason why I think automated testing still is a key component. And the other reason is because because you can't really test every page manually, you can get a sense as to where the, um where the, well, there may be accessibility problems through an automated test that you can then verify by manually looking at it later.

So now I'm gonna get back to what Jamie was mentioning about the, the standards. Jamie is absolutely right. That and, and so is uh Angie that this, this, this is a really a shifting land escape. We've been using WCAG mostly because the justice department has been settling their cases at WCAG. But there's really nothing in the regulations that say that you have to meet WCAG. And so we've been doing that as kind of like a safe harbor even though nobody's ever said as much. Uh, that's basically the reason that we're doing it.

And now with WCAG 2.2 out there, it's, now that's ultimately going to become the standard we think. But we haven't, I haven't noticed any settlement agreements that have required that, but then again, WCAG 2.2 is only a couple of months old. Yeah. So recently the justice department has come out with their title two opposed regulations and those are proposing WCAG 2.1 but they, who knows where that's gonna go. Um That's creating quite a bit of controversy.

And I think one of the reasons why from a technical perspective that causes controversy, at least for me is because say you're a state or local government and you've got a website and it has thousands of pages because you put everything up on your website. Can you really ever guarantee that that site is fully WCAG 2.1 aa compliant on every single page? I don't think so yet. Even though we're setting the bar there as a practical matter, we can't really ever guarantee it.

I think one of the things that industry has been struggling with for a very long, long time is trying to figure out some kind of standard around what we would think of as like substantial conformance, you know, does that look like? Ok, we're gonna do regular testing on our web pages. But you know, if I, if you can't access to content on the web page on a particular web page, how do you provide effective communication to that web page? You know, maybe through um a telephone number or maybe through chat, a chat feature or something like that, we don't have answers to those things. And so that's one of the, I think that's one of the things that really irritates a lot of a lot of big companies and a lot of organizations that have really enormous digital presences.

Jamie: And can I dovetail with one thing kind of saying this is Jamie again, I, what, what Ken just said really deserves to be highlighted. Websites are really unique because the content can change frequently and because the, the tools that people use to access the website are not all the same. Some people use Edge, some people use Chrome, some people use Firefox, some people use a screen reader. Some people use, you know, various brands of screen readers. Some people visit on mobile, some on desktop. So it's really unlike something like an office building. Once we build the office building, the types of changes that you make to it, you know, they're significant and they're permanent websites may change hundreds of times a day, thousands of times a day and the tools that we tax system and make a difference.

And so in some ways, it becomes an expedient for lawyers to say, well, let's just make full compliance with something like the web content, accessibility guidelines or WCAG let's just make that the standard and that's the law, but that expedient isn't very practical. And so I would say to my clients when I was an outside lawyer, you know, the standard is really helpful to us to understand the technical approach to making the website accessible.

But at the end of the day, there's a couple of things that are also important. One of those is, you know, keeping the consumer experience first and foremost, how are people gonna use your website? How are you going to make it actually work for people with disabilities? And then the second is once you have invested in making the website accessible, how are you going to keep it that way? What kind of testing are you are you going to continue to do? Because as your website changes, these things that you've implemented, they're not static things get broken. And so these are unique challenges of the website world that you don't face in a physical space.

Bareeq: Thank you so much, Ken and Jamie. I love where the conversation is going about this, not only the speed of change, but also the, the constant evolution and then the sustainability of it all. I'm gonna go back to you Angie. How do you see the role of legal professionals evolving and ensuring digital accessibility compliance across the industries you mentioned earlier?

Angie: Yeah, thanks. I wanna also add to continue this conversation about evolution as we hear in a lot of areas in the tech space, you know, does law evolve fast enough to keep up with reality here, we may have, you know, that issue as well as as um Jamie and and Ken have pointed out. So, you know, there have been many conversations about website accessibility and some of those earlier discussions and laws and considerations really did focus, you know, maybe exclusively on websites versus other kinds of digital content.

But of course, now that conversation has to be changing a little bit and we're looking at different types of digital properties that companies are um making use of whether they're mobile apps or other kinds of experiences. Um you know, experiences in the metaverse for example, what do the existing standards and laws have to say about that? And those are challenges that we all grapple with um including how, what will the implications of generative AI be for accessibility? How might some of those tools end up helping us solve some of these issues? How do the obligations change as technology changes?

So basically, all I've done there is present a bunch of questions without real clear answers. How counsel can help in some of these processes is to help them evaluate what their legal obligations are. Many times as counsel, we might partner with somebody like Ken, so that that person and that firm can come in and do a a more technical based analysis and audit of the client's digital properties. And then as counsel, we might help clients make decisions about how to address, you know, the biggest areas of risk, how to be transparent to users about what we're doing from an accessibility point of view without sort of making promises that we're not in a position to keep.

For example, you know, so how to how to have your messaging be reflect what you're actually able to do and accomplish. And then also, you know, counsel can be helpful in working with you if you're a customer and you're working with vendors to help make sure that vendor contracts appropriately address matters of accessible deliverables, those sorts of areas. But essentially good counsel can be a partner and help you sort of assess your needs and requirements and then help make sure that you know, you can implement those.

Bareeq: Thank you so much, Angie, great, excellent insight as well. I'm gonna actually pose this question to first Jamie and then Ken. So can you provide some insights into the collaborative efforts between legal and technical teams in achieving and maintaining this digital accessibility? Especially in the evolutions we considered how, what are some best practices when it comes to trying to maintain and sustain digital accessibility.

Jamie: So, this is one of the areas where legal advice is so tightly married to technical advice that the two have to be addressed simultaneously. And I would actually say it's even bigger than that. So if you're, when I was advising clients, it depended on their industry. But so many of the clients that have concerns over website accessibility are in a public retail or a public service provider type role. And for them, this is an even bigger issue where it's not just legal and technical, but you also have marketing and communications, people who need to be involved because they're the ones of course who are creating the content for the website. So just sort of this is implicit in your question.

But it bears reiterating, you know, getting all of the stakeholders into the room as you formulate a strategy is step one and the most important step because if the engineers understand what's required based on legal advice, but no one's told the marketing department and they upload content that doesn't meet accessibility guidelines, then the engineers work is sort of, you know, all for not and the legal advice is all for not. So I think step one is getting everybody in the right Uh everybody in the room who's contributing to either building the website or adding content to the website.

And then I'll kick over to Ken because he's got more experience on this side than I do But what I would say is the second piece of it is sort of aligning on what the specific objective will be. Whether it's these specific function on the website, we are going to ensure are always 100% WCAG compliant because they are most highly trafficked sections. But maybe these other sections of the website that get very little usage, you know, we're, we're only going to audit those on a less frequent basis, making sure that everyone is aligned on what the actual goal is so that you can build a strategy that points to that goal rather than making the objective something more nebulous, like improve website accessibility or have an accessible website. As Ken's already said, having a quote unquote "accessible website" is almost impossible for a large complex site so you have to define an objective with specificity.

Ken: Yeah. OK. I'm gonna jump in now, Jamie. You're absolutely right. It's, it's, it does, this is an area where legal and technical definitely are, have to be on the same page, but I'd say it even goes broader than that. So for instance, an e-commerce organization, they really have to have all of customer service involved in the process to make sure that everything is aligned in terms of how they want to provide services for their customers. So part of it, you know, and, and accessibility, I've noticed that,
you know, the between the technical people that do work on digital accessibility and the traditional built environment accessibility, the people that do things like, you know, traditional effective communication and modifications of policies and new construction and alterations.

That traditional idea of ADA and the digital side of ADA aren't really even aligned yet yet that we should be. And so when Jamie said you have to bring in all the stakeholders into the room, I think that it's broader than just the technical and the legal people. It's really all about how you're providing services to your customers. And then once everybody has an aligned vision, I think that that has to be communicated back out in a digital presence.

And so for instance, you know, like in the California Privacy Protection Act, we've got this idea of uh privacy statements and now every organization has a privacy statement on their website. I think that it makes sense to also provide an accessibility statement so that visitors to your website know exactly what to expect, how to, what the problems are, how you're going about providing accessibility and what are the different for lack of a better word workarounds for um inaccessible content so that any visitor that isn't using the website can get access to the same goods and services in an equally convenient or minimally inconvenient I should say way according to, you know, roughly the same hours of operation or at least an expected known hours of operation. So can you, if those workarounds can provide uh the same comparable access I think that that really goes a long way.

I mean, like in a Domino's pizza case after it went up to the Supreme Court and was reentered back to the district court. Domino's Pizza made that argument and they said, well, you know, people can always call and order a pizza instead of having to do it over a website and the opinion noted. Well, yeah, that's all well and good. But waiting 45 minutes, which is what happened to the plaintiff. It isn't uh isn't um the same kind of experience, it doesn't provide effective communication. So that's an instance where, you know, had Domino's Pizza in their operations been aligned with the legal requirements. And that had the technical people all sat down in a room and said, ok, this is how we're going to provide access to our services and let it be known that this is how we're going to do it and we're going to be efficient in doing it. So you only have to wait a couple of minutes at most to order a pizza. They could have potentially save themselves a boatload of pain.

Jamie: And one thing that I would add that couple of what Angie and Ken have said together is you have to know and the lawyer can help you with this You have to know when you're in over your head and when you need to bring in a third party vendor to help you, you know, it, the most organizations probably don't have in house tremendous digital accessibility expertise and are gonna need some level of outside help. That level of outside help could be a one time audit where they say here's the issues and then your internal department takes them from there or it could be continuous monitoring of your website and remediating it by the vendor rather than doing anything in house.

There's not a one size fits all approach because it really depends on the the organizations um assets. But I think this is really critical picking the right partners because all website vendors are not created equal. And without being too controversial, I think that we could say that there are actually some approaches and some vendors who, whose efforts have been counterproductive for the organization involved. And, and there's some products that uh we, we've heard plaintiff's lawyer actually target websites to use those those website remediation products. So getting your lawyer to help you find and retain a good vendor if needed Um so that you can actually address this issue, I think is, is critical and just being honest with yourself that the expertise to do this might not reside within your business.

Ken: I'll add to that Jamie by saying that a good accessibility vendor knows when they're over their head too. And so for instance, I can tell you about PDFs generally, but if you had a bunch of PDFs, uh don't ask me to remediate them, I'd send you to a PDF expert for that. So I would partner with somebody else for that, those kinds of things. And similarly, I'd also partner with somebody that does really great automated testing. I wouldn't necessarily say that they should be interpreting your results because they might not have, they may have a great tool but not great staff. So it's, yeah, it really is It really does become a team effort.

Bareeq: Thank you all so much for sharing your expertise. And as we wrap up, I just wanted to again, say thank you so much for your participation in this insightful conversation on digital accessibility and accessibility audits. I know we covered a lot of ground even in these short 30 minutes to our listeners. Thank you so much for tuning in. To tune in for more episodes of Inclusivity Included Please be sure to follow us. Uh until next time, foster inclusivity, embrace diversity and make inclusion a part of your everyday journey. Thank you again, Angie, Jamie, and Ken for joining us, take care.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts.

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice, and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.

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Pariti Sutaria, organizer of TEDxCamden and graduate student at Rutgers School of Business, joins Iveliz Crespo and Bareeq Barqawi to discuss the fascinating world of TEDx speaking and event organization. Join us as we delve into the intricacies of preparing for and securing a coveted spot on the TEDx stage. Discover behind-the-scenes insights into curating powerful, thought-provoking talks that resonate with a global audience. Whether you're an aspiring speaker or simply curious about the magic that makes TEDx events unforgettable, this episode is your backstage pass to the TEDx experience. Stay tuned to gain valuable insights from Pariti that will inspire and inform, exclusively for our dedicated community of Reed Smith attorneys and staff.

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Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and I'm Iveliz Crespo. Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

Iveliz: Hello, everyone. Welcome to our podcast Inclusivity Included. I am your host, Iveliz Crespo and I'm joined today by our co-host Bareeq Barqawi. Bareeq is Reed Smith's DEI talent development analyst. So welcome Bareeq. So happy to have you join us today.

Bareeq: Thank you so much, Iveliz. I'm excited to be here. We are joined today by Pariti Sutaria, a graduate student at Rutgers School of Business pursuing her MBA with a concentration in marketing. She graduated this year with a Bachelors of Science in management statistics and leadership. Pariti is also the organizer of TEDxCamden, which brings annual TEDx talk conferences to the city of Camden to share ideas worth spreading within the local community and beyond. The TEDx talks and performances organized by Pariti and her team have garnered millions of views on ted.com and YouTube making a significant impact on a global scale.

As an immigrant and first generation student, Pariti is deeply committed to advocacy and activism with a particular focus on gender equity, anti colonialism and racial justice. In her free time, Pariti is a mehndi and henna artist who loves designing and doing traditional hand art. Welcome, Pariti.

Pariti: Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here today.

Bareeq: Of course, we are excited to kick this off and discuss more of your experiences as a TEDxCamden organizer. So I'm gonna start with what inspired you to become involved in organizing TEDx events.

Pariti: Yeah, I would say honestly, the city of Camden, I really care about TEDx talk and I've always watched them ever since I was young and I feel so inspired and, and I wanna do like innovative work every time I hear different TEDx talks or TED Talks. And since then, I've always had a goal of, you know, attending a TED conference. And when I started college, I realized like, hey, I can put together a TEDx conferences myself. And so through a licensing process, TED has uh I was able to gain an organizer license to organize TEDx talks for the city. And now that's what we do. And I love bringing innovative and inspiring work and speakers and performers to Camden. Um and then also to kind of shed a global light on Camden, the city, what it has to offer from its like community, art culture, its people. Uh So people could also see Camden in a new light, Um maybe passive stereotypes.

Iveliz: Absolutely. I really appreciate that, you know, as I shared with you before we started recording this, this episode and I, I'm a Camden native. I'm really proud of where I grew up. Um And I'm happy to see that so many great things are happening in the city. And I think, you know, dispelling a lot of those stereotypes is incredibly important, uh especially, you know, given that there is so much promise in the city and people sometimes will often overlook that. So really appreciate the work that you do, you know, like anything that is a privilege to do. I think it's, it's all about access, right? Uh And so oftentimes you'll see that, you know, people who, who, who take advantage of opportunities are the people who have those opportunities to begin with. And so I'm curious for you, for those that may not be familiar. Could you briefly explain, you know what the process, what a TEDx is?

Pariti: Yeah. So Ted National has uh in a licensing process called TEDx where they offer individual communities, whether it be universities or cities, the chance to apply for a license and ultimately put together independently organized TED events in their own space. So it's individual communities that are putting together, you know, Ted like experiences, those conferences for their city, for their university, whatever their community it is that they received a license for. But then those talks are being produced the same way as TED talks would as TEDx talks. And then those TED talks then get posted on ted.com on TEDx YouTube and whatnot.

Bareeq: Very cool. We're gonna actually dive into it a little bit about how to organize an actual TEDx event. Uh But before we get into that, I wanted to discuss a little bit more about speaker selection because a lot of people I've heard so many people say it's on my bucket list. I want to be a TEDx speaker. So just to, to get our audience kind of excited about the topics at hand, how does one go about becoming a TEDx speaker? And what is the process actually like?

Pariti: Yeah, so there's different ways because there's thousands of TEDxs all over the world. So every selection process looks a little bit different based on where you apply just because every TEDx is individually organized. And, and so it looks different. Ultimately, they are being producers, TEDx talk. So the criteria is relatively the same and then the process of, of the talk being produced is still the same. However, the selection process does look a little bit different from organization to organization. For us It's pretty rigorous I would say. We have a, a very heavy curated process as well as the criteria for like what a TEDx talk is what it isn't what we wanna put on our stage. So I'm happy to kind of dive into that, but TEDx talks are accessible all over. So if, if you are able to like access to Google, I would Google ted.com/events and then that has a list of TEDx is coming up every, every month, every, you know, basically the ones that are lined up and you're able to like apply to any.

Bareeq: OK. It's really good to know. The next question actually, since we talked about it briefly. So let's speak about TEDxCamden specifically. Um So what are the specific qualifications and criteria that potential TEDx speakers should meet? I know you said it's a rigorous process. So what, what would that look like for TEDxCamden?

Pariti: Yeah. So I can go into the speaker selection process in terms of like what our criteria is for what we want to talk to be. I think speakers wise um that we have no criteria like no age, no gender, no race, like nothing. We are completely and solely looking at the idea we're spreading when you look at applications coming in. So you can be anyone from anywhere and apply. There is no limit or, or any guidelines as to like who the qualifications you need to give a TEDx talk. There are none. You can apply with your idea. And the idea is your, you know, credibility.

Bareeq: And so if it's, I know we mentioned before about the TEDx event, now, I know that there are sometimes you have themes, how do you select the theme for your event? And I'm sure that that's what's going to drive certain speakers to want to apply.

Pariti: Yeah. So the goal with themes is that we want them to be super broad and broad enough so that anyone applying can with whatever topic and say something under that theme. So that is also required of us by TED where themes are super,
super broad. Uh And so anyone who's applying isn't deterred to apply just because of the theme, the theme can be so far. So our very first conference, our theme was brand new ending. Um Recently, our theme was unanswered and the theme coming up for a conference is invincible from, you know, the notion of Camden invincible.

But so these themes are super broad. And the goal is that anyone from any topic, any expertise can speak on some part of it to and relate through that theme. So anyone can speak on, you know, business or mental health or tech or um health care and still speak on invincible part of whatever topic that they're speaking on, whatever idea that they're giving. Same thing with like unanswered, they can bring something unanswered to whatever topic that they're, you know, bringing on stage. So the goal is to have a theme that is super, super broad. Um So anyone on any topic can, can speak on it. And so we, you know, aim to do the same and the theme we try at least to make it cater to our community. So, since this is um TEDxCamden, the series' theme is invincible, just, you know, in spirit of Camden.

Bareeq: Yeah, I love that.

Iveliz: Absolutely. I love that as well. Given that it's on the side of our City Hall in particular, I think that's a really neat tie in. Well,
there's a quote about invisibility on the side of our city hall. So I think that's a really unique tie to the city. I guess for me, one of the things that I'm most curious about, obviously, you get a lot of people who are interested in participating in a TED talk and not everyone is going to have a story that is going to match the theme or a story that is carefully curated enough to get accepted.
And so I guess for you from your experience being on the administrative side of things and seeing all these proposals come in,
can you share any tips or insights on crafting a compelling TEDx proposal?

Pariti: Yeah, of course. So we this year got over 300 applications and we're choosing eight. So you can imagine like the curation process of what that entails because you have to like hone in. And I guess the one thing I retell everyone to really look at, um, when they, when they apply is to really, really ensure that whatever they're applying with their idea at its core is an idea where it's spreading. It's something new and innovative. Ultimately, you know, there's, there's just so many ideas out there but to bring something that is challenging and proactive that, you know, really inspires people to either live differently, do differently or think differently. It is hard, you know, it's challenging. And so we look at ideas that could do that that are unheard of or, or bringing like a compelling twist um to maybe a basic argument.

But ultimately, or us, it's making sure that the idea isn't a motivational speech or a hero's journey story or a research lecture. Like all of those things are not for the TEDx stage, but they're great, but not for the TEDx stage. For us, it is, you know, curious journey that a speaker is posing through an idea that is challenging and proactive at its core.

Iveliz: Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. I think that's really great to hear and things that we can keep in mind too as we're even looking at proposals internally for speakers and the like. So thank you for sharing that insight.

Bareeq: Transitioning to the speaker experience, I actually had a, a friend of mine who did a TEDx talk and he wrote an article on how stressful it could be to be a TEDx speaker. Um you know, no one actually thinks like, oh, I wanna get selected, but the actual process is to memorize your entire script and to have the great flow and to have it be so natural and spontaneous, I think that was the word he used. Um So what, what are some of the key benefits and challenges that a TEDx speaker typically encounters?

Pariti: I'll start with benefits. I would say, you know, everyone that's done. A TEDx talk has told me like it's a life changing experience, you know, ultimately, it is on people's bucket lists and they often say like their writing and curation and critical thinking process changed after like their TEDx talk because at least for, for us, you know, we have heavy like six month curation. So they apply with an idea and then we could dive into that idea and curating it and you know, executing just delivery. There's the whole like delivery side of things. But before that, there's the whole like the content side of things like what it is that you're putting out into the world and making it ready for the TEDx stage.

So benefits wise, I would say the number one thing we see is the global visibility. Ultimately, when you are doing a TEDx talk, it's ensuring that it is going to be seen by so many people that are TEDx fans that watch TED Talks that, you know, love ideas worth spreading. So when you do a TEDx Talk, it is you sharing an idea to an international audience and that itself is very amazing, I would say, and that's the key benefit to why most people apply in the first place in the first place. It's because they want their idea to reach a global audience and because they think that the idea is worth spreading to a global audience.

And then challenges wise, I think the biggest one, as you mentioned is the curation piece of it. It's getting ready for the talk, the execution of it because it's such a long process. I think the tension builds up with time. You know, it's not like you get chosen and then you're giving the TEDx talk the next day, it's like your, your initial idea was just chosen and now you have to create this TEDx talk and then execute it. So it is a long process of curation and, and, and work and script writing. Um critical thinking.

We have a heavy feedback process like just constant back and forth for the first two months. Our conference cycle runs generally from like May to March of two years. Basically, I would say so this year, like May 2023 to March 2024 the conference, our conferences happened in January. Um but there's like post production work, we have to do some March for us, but generally conferences are in January. Um We start the speaker selection process in May speakers are selected by August and then like September, October, November, December, January is just curation for these speakers. So, you know, the first two months is literally just feedback, like change this, change that, that heavy focus on this, bring me want to that. So it's a lot.

Um And then it's like memorizing it, working with your speaker coach to deliver it in a way that's compelling that brings the audience in and release and articulates your idea at the center of your talk. That's the number one thing. It's like you want to talk to be about the idea and not you. And that's the thing to the talk isn't gonna be about the speaker. And that's what makes a TEDx Talk for the TEDx stage. But the, their entire talk has to be about their idea and, and, you know, articulated every single thing at the center should be the idea that you're spreading. Um And to do that, you know, on a stage is, is a lot. So I think it's, it's, it is really challenging process, but the benefit is that whatever you end up saying it's, it's reaching an international stage and it, it is changing people's lives. So I think that's, that's the ultimate like, yay,

Iveliz: That's amazing. And, and I really love what you said there. I think it's easy to get up and talk about yourself for X amount of time. But when you remove yourself from the equation, you have to talk about your idea. I think that that's a lot harder for people to do. So I appreciate that. It's a really long process and that people get a lot of feedback along the way. I think that that's certainly probably helpful for a lot of people. For me, I guess one of the things I'm curious about, I mean, look, you know, as someone who does this work, I've seen a lot of presentations, I've seen a lot of speakers some more compelling than others,
but you get a unique experience of looking at some of the best speakers, you know, in this, on this coast. And so for me, I guess I'd like to know if you could describe it a memorable or impactful TEDx talk that you've organized and what made it stand out for you?

Pariti: I guess this answer will be perfect to what we always say, which is that, you know, your public speaking skills can be developed. But what matters is your idea? And once again, even right now, we have produced what, like so many TEDx talks by now. But one idea that still sticks with me because it was so innovative was by uh Sinead Bovell. Not to say she's not a great speaker. She's a great public speaker, but it was her idea that, you know, so, so is everyone that applies to TEDx, they great public speakers. So we, you know, don't really have to worry about the speaking piece of it. We're not worried that they might be a bad speaker because when you're applying to a TEDx talk, it's generally not your first speaking experience. It's more so the idea and, and by profession she's a futurist and her idea this was, this was a couple of years ago, I think it's a lot more relevant now and a lot more seen now.

But a couple of years ago, I was like, mind blown uh because she talked about uh robotic cultural appropriation and how, you know, digital avatars are being like racially appropriated in, in today's digital age and what that looks like and, and next steps for it. And I just thought that was such an amazing talk because we see, you know, we're entering, not entering, we are in a technological age. We see more and more different things every day and to talk about it in that space and,
and what she was posing, I would, you know, recommend everyone, check out her talk. It's on our, um TEDxCamden, uh YouTube as well as TEDx YouTube and on and on ted.com. But I think that's the talk that really does stand out to me.

Bareeq: That's what I actually, I'm gonna go back and watch that one because that sounds like a really interesting topic, not something I considered. But once you said the topic, I was like, Oh, I was like that, that's something that I definitely want to check out, especially in this day and age. I feel like that's the digital era is just like fastly moving and we have to kind of keep up and make sure that we remove biases as much as we can. So my next question actually is going to be about hosting the TEDx event. We touched on it briefly in the beginning. Um You talked about getting a license in order to organize an event. So can you walk us through some of the essential steps? It doesn't have to be everything, but what are some of those essential steps involved in organizing such an event?

Pariti: So we have teams in marketing, finance, logistics, curation and technology. Although our technology team kind of like partners with marketing. Um And so those are our like core groups and these groups ultimately, you know, come together to execute the conference, but individually, they work on their, their own I would say tasks every week. So finance has its own timeline because we are completely funding this conference of $50,000 every year that we have to fundraise from scratch every year. So we have our own process of, you know, reaching out to stakeholders in the city, small businesses, corporations and, and fundraising for this event.

So that starts as soon as our conference cycle starts in May of the year before the conference right into like November by November, which is like two months before the conference. We aim to have all the funds that we need in order to execute it. And that money goes into videography, stage design, uh speaker accommodations and just everything that a conference entails.

Then we have marketing. Now that timeline is a little bit later that I would say we start September and, and kind of raise a lot of like hype for the conference. And by December, it's like a lot of marketing for the conference because you want as many people to, you know, come out to reach Camden residents to reach local residents for like the live audience. And then we also live stream the conference. So we wanna reach an international audience. So just a lot of marketing that goes into it um as well as marketing our speakers, their ideas and logistics wise, it's from September as well into, into January because we work with our venue and our production team kind of get ready for the heavy, you know, curation that Ted provides on, on curating a conference with certain cameras with certain lighting with a certain stage. We have to create our TEDxCamden letters.

So overall, just a lot of logistics that go in with the venue and then last but not least is the curation process, which is the longest process as I previously shared that goes from, from May all the way up to January, um where we select speakers through two rounds. Um and then final speakers as well as final performers get plenty of time to get ready for their talk. And then post production is I would say around two months, we, you know, the talks get filmed and edited, but then we have to send them to TED uh before the, we send them to TED or before the talks are even executed. We fact check the talks through coaches we have. So it's just a lot that goes into it. But these teams do their, you know, own work and then come together to execute this final conference every year.

Iveliz: Well thank you for that. I guess, you know, this is the podcast title is Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. And so for us, you know, one of the priorities we have is we like to showcase different stories from people from diverse backgrounds. And I know that's a consideration that you folks take into account when you're, when you're selecting speakers. So from your perspective, how do you go about creating an inclusive and diverse lineup of speakers?

Pariti: One of the easiest ways to do that is by ensuring that we have a variety of different topics at our conference because that also ensures a variety in audience, a variety in speakers. Because if we have different topics that are, you know, from people from completely different walks of life, then we are having a conference that has so many different topics that anyone uh attending can gain something out of it from the variety and performers and speakers. So the number one thing we ensure is that we have uh like a stark variety in, in what, what it is that we are putting out into the conference.

Every talk is between like 5 to 15 minutes. Generally most talks are 10 minutes at. Every conference has so far, I had like around 10 speakers and like 2 to 4 performers. And so every talk has been on a topic that is completely different. So it's like 10 completely different topics from, from mental health to nutrition and wellness to business, to tech, the health care, like just completely different topics.

And then we also make sure and this is given to us by TED that we are catering our talks to our local community. So what it is that we're putting out does benefit Camden before it benefits the world. Uh kind of like putting on your mask before you worry about putting other people putting on their mask kind of thing where it's like we're not, firstly, we're not worried about the global audience, we're worried about Camden. So it's like, will this um and what the idea that is being spread benefits Camden, the people of Camden, the residents that live in Camden, what Camden represents, who Camden represents. We never wanna be tone deaf. So like, yes, a talk about maybe a talk about like nutrition and wellness on like a privileged platform might look good for another city. But for TEDxCamden, we're, you know, not putting out a talk that talks about something that are, you know, residents would feel not accessible at all for the city. So we never wanna be tone deaf in that sense.

So because of that, we ensure that whatever the talk they were putting out, if they kind of address and innovate on a local level, we know they will also innovate on a global scale. Because anyone watching those talks on a local level, if they feel inspired, then on a global level, it's like guaranteed that they will just because of the way Camden is in our city is. So that's like another way we make sure that, that we're, you know, doing the right work is by making sure like, hey, will this talk benefit Camden will Camden residents want to watch this talk or see this talk? And then if they answer yes, then we move on like, OK, and then what about a global scale? Like will an international audience benefit from this talk?

Iveliz: I think that's a great point. You know, I still remember as I mentioned, I'm a Camden native. I still remember I went to see someone speak one time and they made a comment because they were late to coming to the stage and they made a comment about how they took a wrong turn. And they said, you know, I ended up in a place in Camden that you never want to end up in.
And the audience kind of awkwardly laughed. But like me, as someone who's a native and, you know, is from the city, I certainly remember how I felt and I was more mad than I was, you know, laughing at, at this kind of joke. And, but I think it's important to be respectful and realize who your audience is because at the end of the day, you're there to service the community.

Bareeq: I was actually gonna say, I love the fact that you, you always approach it from the lens of Camden and the people of Camden and how you make it so accessible and relatable to the people there. Like I like that's your priority and that's what you kind of use to navigate the TEDx conference and as you organize it, which is really powerful. Um As we get close to wrapping up, I did have a question for you Pariti can you offer any advice or encouragement to individuals who aspire to become either TEDx speakers or TEDx organizers, whether you know what skills and qualities uh should they work on or strive for and would love to hear what you think is, is something of value as people kind of partake in that journey.

Pariti: Yeah. So for TEDx speakers, I would say, as I've said, maybe too many times throughout this podcast is that they should solely focus on their idea or spreading that the, that the work that they're putting out, that the idea that they're presenting is something one that is like, super clear and focused. You know, this talk isn't an hour long, it's gonna be like 10 minutes long and they can't jam pack it with like 10 different things they wanna say. It has to be like one specific idea that's like articulated,
well, you know, can be taken well from an audience and is innovative.

It inspires but it's also challenging and proactive and it, it's really challenging people basically to leave the space being like, I didn't think about it this way or like now I'm gonna change the way I think about this or, or live in this way or, or do in this way. So that's definitely the ultimate thing for TEDx speakers. Another thing I think people often overlook as a speaker is like the timeless piece of talks. Like we want the TEDx Talks and, you know, TED Talks to be timeless, meaning people can watch it five years later, 10 years later and still get value from the talk. So often if people apply with things that only cater to now in the sense of something that's happening right now, it's like we need something more out of it because it's like, ok, but someone watches it next year, why would they care?

So that's another thing where it's like an idea where spreading has to really be an idea. We're spreading for any audience, for any anyone at any time. So I would definitely encourage any, anyone looking to give a TEDx talk to really hone in on their, on their idea and make sure it's something that is, is innovative and new at its core. There's so many examples of that but like shameless plug, check out the Talks that TEDxCamden produces. And as for TEDx organizers, I think this is a lot more challenging because as an organizer, it's just countless hours and hours and hours of like volunteer work, a literal, like blood shed tears and like, just this is so much, I would say that goes into organizing a TEDx event that I wouldn't do it just because, like, I would only do it if anyone's interested in being an organizer if you're super passionate, either about, you know, ideas about TED Talks or about bringing some to your community that, you know, will, you know, bring a positive light to the community or, or change the way people think or bring innovative speakers or performers to your stage. Like there's a lot of reasons. Um But I would say, like, choose organizing for the right reasons because otherwise the process is like, not worth it at all. Like if you're not passionate about, about TED Talks or, or innovative ideas or, you know what you're putting as the community. I think anything else will just feel like a chore and like, you will not be putting on a high quality event at all or, or benefiting anyone from the talks that are being produced if it's not something you, you feel passionate about.

So I would say to anyone interested in organizing or you know, any organizing teams out there to really, really, really want to do it because like, if you want to, then it will happen. Because once again, like for example like, I started from scratch, I didn't even know that I could put together TEDx events and we found a way in Camden with like $0. Um So now like where we are, it's like once you, if you have like the passion for it and the drive for it, like the work will show up for itself uh because you'll be putting in what, what's needed to organize this event. But otherwise it's, it's honestly not worth it if it's not something you truly feel passionate about because it is just so much, it's just a lot.

Iveliz: Thank you for that insight, you know, and we really appreciate you joining us. Um We know that, you know, you're very busy and I'm sure you have a lot on your plate, but we really appreciate you coming and sharing your story and also advising and giving advice to people who may be thinking about, hey, I one day want to get this off my bucket list. So again, thank you so much. We really enjoy having you.

Pariti: Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure. Feel free to reach out LinkedIn or check out our work at tedxcamden.org.

Bareeq: Thank you so much.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher PodBean and reedsmith.com.

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For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity, Equity & Inclusion page.

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KeyAnna Schmiedl, global head for culture and inclusion at Wayfair, joins co-hosts Iveliz Crespo and John Iino to share their thoughts about the innovative programs and policies at Wayfair, and discuss which ones have produced the most meaningful results.

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity, Equity & Inclusion page.

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Reed Smith attorneys Liza Craig and DJ Cespedes join co-hosts Iveliz Crespo and John Iino to discuss recent federal and state legislative initiatives that regulate organizations’ diversity, equity and inclusion efforts, the criminal justice system, and opposing litigation. They also look into new executive orders from the Biden administration, California’s mandate for board diversification, and other legislation impacting company policy and diversity initiatives. Our panel will predict outcomes for future legislation promoting diversity.

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity, Equity & Inclusion page.

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Many organizational leaders want to do the right thing—they’re committed to creating more equitable, diverse and inclusive workplaces. In spite of that, many leaders are unsure where to begin. In this episode, co-hosts John Iino and Iveliz Crespo join Reed Smith counsel Liza Craig – our deputy director for diversity, equity & inclusion programs in the U.S. – to share strategies for achieving transformational change on issues of equity, inclusion and diversity.

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.

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Listen as notable speakers discuss the impact of IT and analytics in driving positive DE&I outcomes. Traci Shirachi, CEO of The Mark USA data analytics company, with Iveliz Crespo and John Iino, explain how data analytics broaden the definition of diversity, by drilling down into thoughts, feelings, socioeconomic backgrounds, relationships, experiences, culture, and generational perspectives.

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.

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Every November, Native American Heritage Month provides a national platform for indigenous people to shed light on their communities. In this episode, we will learn about the complex cultures and traditions of Indigenous communities and the often-overlooked history that continues to shape the inequities they experience today. Speakers include Jacob McArthur, member of White Earth Ojibwe Nation, Tori McConnell, member of the Yurok tribe, and Dina Horwedel, director of public education at the American Indian College Fund, joined by our hosts John Iino and Iveliz Crespo.

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.

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In this special Veterans Day episode, Reed Smith partner Julia Lopez guest hosts a discussion with lawyers Melisa Geist and Kathy Oviedo to discuss their pro bono work to help veterans get a second chance at disability benefits that were wrongly denied or delayed. They’re joined by Rochelle Bobroff, pro bono director at the National Veterans Legal Services Program, which works to ensure that the government delivers to our nation's 22 million veterans and active duty personnel the benefits to which they are entitled because of disabilities resulting from military service.

This episode was produced with support from RSVets, Reed Smith’s veterans and military family business inclusion group.

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.

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In recognition of LGBT+ History Month, Nat Ochoa (they/them), an associate in Reed Smith’s labor and employment group, joins John Iino (he/him) and Iveliz Crespo (they/them) for an enlightening discussion on the importance of transgender, gender non-conforming, and non-binary (TGNCNB) inclusive workplaces. In this episode, Nat discusses being non-binary at work, their involvement with PRISM, Reed Smith’s LGBT+ business inclusion group, PRISM’s efforts to advance inclusion with Reed Smith’s recent pronoun initiative, and transgender inclusive strategies that organizations and leaders should adopt.

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.

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World Mental Health Day is observed every year on October 10, with the overall objective of raising awareness of mental health issues around the world. Mark Goldstein, partner chair of Reed Smith’s Mental Health Task Force, talks powerfully about challenging the stigma associated with mental health. Joined by hosts John Iino and Iveliz Crespo, Mark shares his personal experience with mental health symptoms and describes strategies companies can use to cultivate psychological wellness and encourage help-seeking behaviors.

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.

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The three co-founders of Reed Smith’s disability focused inclusion group share best practices and challenges in building an effective employee resource group for people with disabilities. This comes on the heels of the news that Reed Smith has earned the top score of 100 on the Disability Equality Index, a benchmarking tool that offers businesses an opportunity to self-report their disability inclusion policies and practices. Luke Debevec, Kevin Hara and Carolyn Pepper join co-hosts Iveliz Crespo and John Iino to share their experiences and best practices.

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.

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Dr. Yasmin Davidds joins John Iino and Iveliz Crespo to share her personal stories of empowering and developing multicultural women leaders. An organizational psychologist, Dr. Davidds has helped develop over 2,000 corporate leaders in more than 200 blue chip companies in 22 countries; by teaching, instructing and developing negotiation skills and leadership competencies, and focusing on women in professional, academic and corporate settings.

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.

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Dr. Shantee Rosado, professor in Africana Studies at Rutgers University, delves into the intersections and emergence of Afro-Latinidad in the United States. Joined by D&I advisor Iveliz Crespo and Life Sciences partner Julia López, Rosado discusses coalition-building to advance racial equity, and shares strategies to combat anti-blackness and colorism in Latinx communities.

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.

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Cheryl Crazy Bull, president and CEO, and Emily White Hat, J.D., vice president of programs, of the American Indian College Fund, discuss the indigenous populations they serve, the College Fund’s transformative advocacy work, and how individuals and organizations can support Native Americans. Reed Smith Global Diversity Chair John Iino and Global D&I Advisor Iveliz Crespo moderate the episode.

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.

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Reed Smith Managing Partner A. Scott Bolden shares stories about his childhood during the civil rights movement, reflects on his successful career, and offers his unique insight on the need for more discussion and reconciliation around race relations, in an episode recorded earlier this year. Bolden is the current managing partner of the firm’s Washington, D.C. office.

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.

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In Part 3 of our series “Deconstructing White Privilege,” former Reed Smith partner Mike Scott, associate Lora Spencer, and co-hosts Iveliz Crespo and John Iino discuss their work on the case to remove the Confederate battle emblem from the Mississippi state flag. They also will emphasize the importance of upstanders who support the Black community and interrupt racism.

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.

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Jenna Chandler-Ward, founder of the Multicultural Teaching Institute and the Teaching While White podcast and blog, joins Dr. Dana Alvaré, Reed Smith’s global gender equity advisor, Liza Craig, deputy chair of Reed Smith’s Black business inclusion group, and Global Diversity Chair John Iino for a lively discussion on: the intersectionality between gender and race; why white women feel uncomfortable discussing race; and how white women can engage in discussions around race and racism.

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.

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Ryan Williams-Virden, author and instructor on Reimagining Whiteness, joins Reed Smith Diversity & Inclusion Global Chair John Iino and Senior Public Relations Manager Devon Jaffier for a provocative discussion examining white privilege, why it is difficult for white people to discuss race, and what organizations can do to address systemic racism.

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page. For more information on the legal and business implications of COVID-19, visit the Reed Smith Coronavirus (COVID-19) Resource Center.

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Since its official launch on March 19, 2020, the STOP AAPI HATE reporting center has received more than 1,700 reports of coronavirus-related verbal harassment, shunning and physical assault against Asian Americans. Manjusha Kulkarni, Esq., executive director of the Asian Pacific Policy & Planning Council, along with D&I Global Chair John Iino and D&I Advisor Iveliz Crespo, present a brief history of discriminatory laws against Asian Americans, discuss the impacts of discrimination against Asian Americans during the COVID-19 pandemic, and conclude with thoughts on how we can support each other during these times.

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Jean Lee, president and chief executive officer of the Minority Corporate Counsel Association, joins John Iino to share her personal stories, starting in her childhood, on how being a first-generation Korean-American immigrant shaped her commitment to advocacy and equity. Jean discusses systemic racism impacting the justice system and the legal profession, her work to disrupt these inequities, the importance of allyship and strategies for truly inclusive leadership.

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.

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Jane Burton, chair of the Lawyers with Disabilities Division of the (UK) Law Society, and two Reed Smith associates - Danielle Liebl and Kevin Hara - join guest host Iveliz Crespo to share best practices that help ensure your D&I efforts are inclusive of people with disabilities. They share personal stories and discuss tips for hiring, recruiting and retaining people with disabilities - including the importance of flexible work arrangements.

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.

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Kevan Skelton, Reed Smith’s chief HR officer, and Jeni Taylor, director of HR for Europe, the Middle East and Asia, join John Iino to discuss tactical steps organizations can take and programs they can use to support and engage personnel around the world during the COVID-19 crisis. They share collaboration efforts between Reed Smith’s Human Resources and Diversity & Inclusion teams, including specific programming organized by their business resource groups, their wellness program, and their Mental Health Task Force, as well as some key actions leaders can take.

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Iveliz Crespo, Reed Smith’s global Diversity & Inclusion advisor, joins John Iino in this episode to discuss strategies that business leaders can adopt to foster inclusion and mitigate the effects of social isolation on their employees. Formerly an employment and civil rights lawyer, Iveliz has advocated for inclusion of some of society’s most marginalized communities. Iveliz and John will offer recommendations to address xenophobia, guidance on allyship and upstanders, tips for inclusive crisis communication, and ways to maximize employee resource groups during these times.

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Amber Finch, a Reed Smith partner, joins John Iino to share her personal and professional story and her path to success. In addition to being a lawyer, Amber is a role model, a mentor, and an inspirational speaker. “I wear my diversity to work every day in plain sight. Internally it means that I am a visual demonstration that gender diversity can and does exist within our partnership [at Reed Smith]. Externally it is proof that a black woman can be a partner at a major global law firm.”

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.

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Lloyd Johnson, CEO of Chief Legal Executive and founder of the Minority Corporate Counsel Association (MCCA), joins John Iino to share his history, his personal stories, and advice from his mentors over the years. Lloyd, who toured the world as a member of the NCAA champion USC track and field teams in 1976 and 1978, was able to bring a global perspective to his work. “For the most part, we look at prism through the conflict of race. However ... when you look at conflict through the prism of power, history, and information, all of a sudden things take on a completely different meaning. [The MCCA] is a clearing house of information. It provides multiple forums ... and that's an opportunity for people to focus on what is common, versus what is different.”

For more information, please visit Reed Smith's Diversity & Inclusion page.

Inclusivity Included: Powerful personal stories: Recent Episodes

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