Ideas That Grow: Recent Episodes
NZ Rural Leaders
Kia ora, you’ve joined the 'Ideas that Grow’ podcast - brought to you by Rural Leaders. In this series we’ll be drawing on the insights from innovative rural leaders, to help plant ideas that grow, so our regions can flourish. Ideas That Grow is presented in association with Farmer's Weekly. All guests are arranged by Rural Leaders, whose mission is to grow world class leaders through the Nuffield NZ Farming Scholarship and Kellogg Rural Leadership programme.
From surviving PSA to studying biosecurity around the world, 2018 Nuffield Scholar Simon Cook shares how stepping beyond the farm gate broadened his perspective, strengthened his leadership, and reinforced the importance of preparing industries for tomorrow's challenges.
Ethan Gillespie discusses his experience of the 2025 Horticulture New Zealand Leadership Programme; how it broadened his understanding of leadership, advocacy, and strategic decision-making.
He shares insights into his own leadership development, industry collaboration, and the pathways available for emerging leaders in New Zealand's horticulture sector.
In this Ideas that Grow Podcast, Murray King, 2003 Nuffield Scholar and Rural Leaders Board Board member, talks to Bryan Gibson Managing Editor at Farmers Weekly, and shares his journey from horticulture and the 1980s agricultural downturn, through farm management consultancy in South Canterbury, to running the family farm in Nelson and chairing organisations including LIC.
Now on the selection side of the table two decades after his own scholarship, Murray reflects on what 75 years of Nuffield has meant for New Zealand agribusiness, why stepping away from your business is the point rather than the cost, and the advice he offers anyone weighing it up: the busiest people are the ones who can least afford not to apply.
Kate Tomlinson, Mackenzie Charitable Foundation Scholarship winner, talks to Bryan Gibson Managing Editor at Farmers Weekly, and shares her journey from a UK farm to New Zealand, where Kate now blends practical farming with sustainability and data insights in her role with Map of Ag.
As a current Kellogg Programme participant, Kate is set to research cultural diversity in Canterbury’s dairy workforce. This podcast highlights curiosity, a global perspective, and the value of structured leadership development in shaping future rural leaders.
Alice Rule, Hawke’s Bay winemaker and 2019 Kellogg Scholar, discusses her journey from a Bay of Islands farm to the wine industry, her circular glass economy research, leadership lessons from Kellogg, and balancing entrepreneurship, rural advisory work, and family amid uncertain wine markets.
In this episode of the Ideas That Grow Podcast, 2025 Kellogg Scholar Tim Orlando-Reep shares how his Waikato beef farm integrates carbon forestry, biodiversity ambitions and catchment collaboration.
While pine credits stack up financially, his research through the Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme explores how native plantings can balance profitability with environmental impacts.
In this episode of Ideas That Grow, Farmers Weekly managing editor Bryan Gibson speaks with Lisa Rogers, outgoing CEO of Rural Leaders.
Lisa reflects on her nine-year tenure, the evolution of Rural Leaders, and the enduring impact of flagship programmes like Kellogg and Nuffield.
She explores how leadership development, collaboration, and a strong alumni network have helped shape confident, capable leaders across New Zealand’s food and fibre sector.
In this episode of Ideas That Grow, Bryan Gibson, Farmers Weekly Managing Editor, talks to Dr. Victoria Westbrooke, Senior Lecturer in the Department of Land Management and Systems at Lincoln University.
Victoria discusses the Engage Programme, a three-day professional development initiative run in partnership between Lincoln University and Rural Leaders, designed to bridge the gap between agribusiness professionals and on-farm realities.Victoria offers insight into why providing contextual farm knowledge to technology specialists, researchers, environmental professionals, and policy-makers is crucial for helping them apply their expertise effectively.
In this episode of Ideas That Grow, Bryan Gibson, Farmers Weekly managing editor, talks to Richard Green, farmer, director and 2025 Value Chain Innovation Programme alum.
Richard discusses his background and his Value Chain Innovation Programme experience, and offers keen insight into why understanding value chains and value chain models is so important for anyone wanting to take advantage of the opportunities New Zealand Inc. and farming have to integrate our value chains and think globally.
Thomas Holmes is an arable farmer and a 2024 Kellogg Scholar. In this podcast he talks to Bryan Gibson, Farmers Weekly managing editor, about his family farm’s evolution, overseas experience, his Kellogg research report and his Kellogg experience.
Thomas unpacks his report’s ‘what next’ view of arable farming in Canterbury. He discusses profitability challenges, diversification, and integration with other sectors. Thomas advocates collaboration, mindset change, and leadership from younger farmers to adapt to climate, market, and technological shifts.
In this episode of Ideas That Grow, Bryan Gibson, Farmers Weekly managing editor, talks to Richard Dawkins, 2023 Kellogg Scholar and Marlborough sheep and beef farmer. He is also the new meat and wool chair for Federated Farmers.
Richard discusses his family’s diverse 602-hectare farm operation, which includes sheep, cattle, forestry, and viticulture. He shares his experiences abroad and how returning home reignited his passion for farming. He also talks about his Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme journey and research on lamb and ewe mortality, emphasising the need for better data and body condition scoring.
The discussion also covers leadership, collaboration, and the importance of timing when engaging in personal development.
In this podcast, Hugh Ritchie, 2000 Nuffield Scholar and Hawke’s Bay farmer, shares his leadership journey and insights with Farmers Weekly managing editor Bryan Gibson.
Hugh discusses growing Drumpeel Farms into a diverse 2000-hectare operation, the impact of his Nuffield experience on his personal growth, and on irrigation and strip tillage and the need for better water infrastructure.
He emphasises collaboration, global learning, and the importance of leadership development as vital to strengthening NZ’s food and fibre future.
Jenni Vernon, 1994 Nuffield Scholar, farmer and director, talks to Farmers Weekly managing editor Bryan Gibson about her leadership journey, her Nuffield experience, research, and on not underestimating the power of face-to-face communication in a sometimes-disconnected social media age.
Phil Weir, 2020 Nuffield Scholar, farmer, farmer director for BLNZ and associate director for AGMARDT, talks to Farmers Weekly managing editor Bryan Gibson about the positive value industry good brings to farming.
Phil also talks through some of the challenges and opportunities for sheep and beef farming and how his Nuffield Scholarship and research has given him a valuable global perspective.
In this Ideas that Grow podcast, Lisa Lunn, 2024 Kellogg Scholar, talks to Bryan Gibson,
Managing Editor at Farmers Weekly about her Kellogg research into the use of genetic
technologies in agriculture. Lisa’s research presents a balanced view that unpacks the
challenges, and the opportunities genetic technologies offer the food and fibre sector.
In this Ideas that Grow podcast, Dave Nuku, 2024 Kellogg Scholar, talks to Bryan Gibson,
managing editor at Farmers Weekly, about his work with Ngamanawa Incorporation, his
Kellogg experience, and adopting a philosophy of kaitiakitanga in business.
In this podcast, Esther Donkersloot, 2024 Kellogg Scholar, talks to Bryan Gibson, managing editor at Farmers Weekly, about her research with LIC on breeding heat tolerant cows.
Esther came to New Zealand to do her Masters’ thesis and never left. Good thing too. Having studied at the prestigious Wageningen University, she has steadily built a career looking into better genetic outcomes for our dairy herd – especially as the planet gets warmer.
Along with her research at LIC, Esther discusses her Kellogg report insights on genetics’ social licence to operate.
Jack Cocks, 2021 Kellogg Scholar, talks to Farmers Weekly managing editor Bryan Gibson about his research into resilience in the face of adversity.
Jack, who works on Mt. Nicholas Station with his family, faced his own adversity in the form of a brain aneurysm that sparked a recovery journey spanning 15 surgeries over six years.
He shares the three things all resilient and thriving farmers have in common.
In this episode, Lisa Rogers, Rural Leaders CEO, talks to host Bryan Gibson, Farmers Weekly managing editor, about the recently released report ‘A Path to Realising Leadership Potential in Aotearoa NZ’s Food and Fibre Sector’, along with its leadership development framework, and the leadership programmes serving as key tools for building more and ever greater leaders.
Rogers says while Rural Leaders is traditionally and at its core about leadership, it's also increasingly moving into the capability space now and the journey to leadership – from first steps on their leadership development right through operations teams and into that strategic level of leadership as well.
If we believe the Food and Fibre sector has a Leadership challenge versus a Productivity challenge, then developing our sector’s leadership capability needs to be a priority.
Halfway through the 2024 Scholarship Programme, Scholar Rachel Baker gives us a unique perspective from inside Nuffield. Rachel speaks with Bryan Gibson, Farmers Weekly managing editor, about some of the similarities and differences between the farming systems in the countries visited so far with New Zealand’s.
She discusses insights from Indonesia’s farming industries, France’s love of food, Denmark entering an emissions scheme, California’s water challenges and Chile’s low rates of Research and Development.
This is a must listen for anyone considering a Nuffield Scholarship.
Farmers Weekly managing editor Bryan Gibson speaks to Campbell Parker, chief executive officer at DairyNZ.
Campbell discusses his involvement with the Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme and how leading with authenticity can go a long way to helping us all achieve big things in a time of rapid change.
Farmers Weekly managing editor Bryan Gibson speaks to Jen Corkran, senior animal protein analyst at Rabobank and a 2023 Kellogg Scholar.
Jen discusses her day job to provide red meat insights to clients and farmers. She also unpacks what her Kellogg research tells us about trust, truth and the way farmers take on information.
Dr Matt Sowcik is currently on sabbatical from his role as Associate Professor in the Department of Agricultural Education and leadership at University of Florida. As part of his tour, he joined the Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme in Lincoln.
He spoke to Scholars (and Bryan Gibson) about the power of humility in leadership and its role in working together for a common cause.
Emma Crutchley, 2018 Kellogg Scholar, talks to Bryan Gibson, Farmers Weekly managing editor about some of the challenges sheep and beef farming faces in a water-short region, her Kellogg research, the Value Chain Innovation Programme, and the work being done on ‘Puketoi’ to find the value-add.
In an innovation story that covers the journey from an idea to the challenges of development, and to implementation. Julia Galwey, 2020 Kellogg Scholar, talks about Pearl Veal NZ, a new sustainable utilisation of the bobby calf resource.
Pearl Veal NZ was the winner of the Silver Fern Farms Market Leader Award at the 2023 Beef+LambNZ Awards.
In this podcast, Dr Alison Stewart, CEO at the Foundation for Arable Research, talks with Farmers Weekly's Managing Editor, Bryan Gibson, about the role of arable in agriculture, her role at FAR and delivering research that benefits growers.
Dr Stewart also discusses her involvement with the Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme and the importance of exposure to diversity of thought for leaders in Food and Fibre.
In this podcast, Julian Reti Kaukau, 2021 Kellogg Scholar, talks with Farmers Weekly's Managing Editor, Bryan Gibson, about his Kellogg research and to share insights from his work With MPI Māori Agribusiness.
In reference to his research, Julian reflects on the historic prowess of the Waikato Maniapoto Māori in the Agriculture and Horticulture sectors and suggests that by harnessing the wisdom of the ancestors who once nurtured the Whenua, today's Kaitiaki can make profound and impactful economic and sustainable decisions for the Whenua and their futures.
Julian believes that Māori who have been disconnected from their homelands can better reconnect with their Tupuna Whenua, fostering a profound sense of Tūrangawaewae, enhancing the Mana of the Whānau and Hapū, honoring important Tīkanga such as Manaakitanga and be given the ability to uphold the crucial role of Ahi Kaa.
In this podcast, Dan Eb, 2021 Nuffield Scholar talks to Farmers Weekly Managing Editor,
Bryan Gibson about the role of farming in an increasingly urbanised society.
How might a future might look if we move to a food and farming system in New Zealand that
works beyond only producing food, a system that not only benefits producers but every kiwi.
Dan proposes that if we could build local food models that by design, connect urban kiwis
with the sources of at least some of their food production, then many challenges created by
urbanism might be mitigated.
Mel Poulton, farmer, Special Agricultural Trade Envoy, and 2014 Nuffield Scholar,
talks to Farmers Weekly Managing Editor, Bryan Gibson, about the opportunity that
remains to extract ongoing value from our sector IP, building and learning together
with nations developing agriculture, and building deeper trading relationships based
on transformation before transaction.
In this podcast Bryan Gibson, Farmers Weekly Managing Editor, talks to Hamish Marr, 2019 Nuffield Scholar about his Nuffield research on glyphosate, New Zealand’s use of it as a strategic farming tool, and some of the challenges arable farmers are facing today.
To read more about Hamish's work, head to: https://ruralleaders.co.nz/nuffield-scholars/2019-nuffield-scholar-profile-hamish-marr/
Lucie Douma, 2022 Nuffield Scholar, recently completed her final research report into data
interoperability. The report was informed by extensive global travel and visits to a range of
agricultural operations.
In this Podcast, Lucie talks to Farmers Weekly Managing Editor Bryan Gibson, on the need
for improvements to the way we collect, manage, and use information on farm as part of the
decision-making process. Lucie covers the challenges to data sharing and a solution
potentially accessible to smaller farming operations.
In this month’s podcast, Devry Boughner Vorwerk, Summit Keynote Speaker, talks to Bryan Gibson about the ‘Humanverse’, and breaks down some of the key points from her session at the 2023 Rural Leaders Agribusiness Summit.
Devry explains that the Humanverse concept asks farmers to take a bigger picture view by building longer term strategies - instead of dealing only with immediate challenges. It asks farmers to look beyond the boundaries of the farm and to be open to adopting innovative farming methods.
No stranger to leadership within the sector, Dr Scott Champion spent more than 7 years as Chief Executive Officer of Beef + Lamb NZ and has worked across tertiary education, innovative organisations in the private sector, and industry service delivery and advocacy for more than 20 years.
He talks with Bryan Gibson about his own background, his role leading the Kellogg Progamme, what participants should expect, as well as some further insight into some of the challenges the sector is facing and how the Kellogg programme can help participants gain perspective on some of these big issues.
Kate Scott is a 2018 Nuffield Scholar who works at the intersection of farming, the environment and regulation.
Kate talks to Bryan Gibson, Farmers Weekly Editor, about how and why the 2023 Rural Leaders Agribusiness Summit’s timing and offering should be of high value to farmers, producers and agribusiness, right now.
Rebecca Hyde is a 2017 Nuffield Scholar, a 2021 Kellogg Scholar, and a Farm Environment
Consultant. She is better placed than most to see the differences between collaboration,
cooperation and the value of finding common ground when it comes to farming and the
environment.
Rebecca discusses what collaboration looks like overseas, both inside and outside of land
use, and on working with catchment groups here in Aotearoa New Zealand.
It’s an informative look at some of the nuanced, collaborative frameworks underpinning the
way we get things done.
Dame Jenny Shipley, former New Zealand Prime Minister and 1984 Kellogg Scholar, talks to
Bryan Gibson, Farmers Weekly Editor on leadership at the highest level and on leadership
pathways.
Dame Jenny discusses the need to keep challenging industry to push young people forward
to develop as leaders and in turn ensure the future strength of our political and social
environments.
There’s insight too on leadership in the regulatory environment, the rural urban divide and
how farmers and growers need to share more about the positive ways in which agriculture
responds to the concerns urban communities have.
Katie Vickers, a 2019 Kellogg Scholar, is on a mission to help regenerate our planet by influencing business practice to close the gap between purpose, people, and profit.
Katie talks to Bryan Gibson from Farmer’s Weekly about how her Kellogg research, beliefs, and her role as Sustainability Manager at Rabobank, are going some way to helping achieve that.
Ben Todhunter, a 2006 Nuffield Scholar, talks about his family’s high country station Cleardale, integrating conservation into the operation and into farming systems.
Ben also touches on his Nuffield study and how this has informed his own approach to conservation.
Lynsey Stratford, 2021 Nuffield Scholar, talks to Bryan Gibson from Farmer’s Weekly. In this podcast, Lynsey unpacks her research and the paradox that while farmers care about their people, farms as workplaces are overrepresented in fatal accident and injury statistics. What can be done to improve this?
Julian Raine is a 1997 Nuffield Scholar who quietly gets on with things worth shouting about. In this podcast, Julian talks with Farmer’s Weekly Editor Bryan Gibson about his diverse operation, some of the challenges he faces and some of the innovations he’s making to meet them – including moving to robot-ready on horticultural sites. Julian also talks about his Nuffield travel, what he learned and how his research played a role in helping shape an industry.
Kate Scott, 2018 Nuffield Scholar talks about her Nuffield journey, how the research she undertook has informed the work she does now in helping farmers tackle the regulatory environment, the pace of change, and sustainability.
Dan Shand, 2014 Nuffield Scholar talks about the value-add of drone technology on his farm. From spraying legumes to mustering, drones have transformed the way Dan farms Island Hills Station near Culverden, in North Canterbury.
Bryan Gibson talks to Richard Fowler about alternative proteins and the challenges and opportunities they bring for dairy, sheep and beef and arable producers.
Richard is a 2016 Nuffield Scholar who operates a dairy farm in Maketu, in the Bay of Plenty.
His Nuffield research was on alternative proteins. You can read his report here ‘Will it have legs: An investigation into synthetic food and the implications for NZ agriculture.’
Desiree Reid-Whitaker, founder of Cardrona Distillery and a 2010 Nuffield Scholar, talks about her personal and business journey, the power of lists, and her passion for craft.
In this informative podcast, James Parsons, Wools of New Zealand Chairman and Farmer, talks about supply chains vs value chains, raising the fortunes of wool and how the recent merger between Wools of New Zealand and CP Wool, may help.
In this month’s episode, Bryan talks to Dr. Solis Norton about the complexities of energy and how we measure its use, in the context of a world shifting from fossil fuel dependency to embracing alternative forms of energy.
In this month’s episode, we talk to Lincoln University’s Professor Hamish Gow, a leading expert on value chains, entrepreneurship, and trade.
At a time when nimble innovation and entrepreneurship are needed to meet a fast-changing food and fibre sector, Hamish unpacks value chains, trade and talks about the new Value Chain Innovation Programme.
In this month’s episode, Bryan Gibson talks to 2015 Nuffield Scholar Dan Steele.
Dan runs Blue Duck Station on the Whanganui River, with his wife Sandy, kids Blue, Snow, Forest, River, and the Blue Duck Team.
Farming non-intensive sheep and beef, Dan has diversified to also offer tourist accommodation, hunting experiences, and manuka honey.
Dan believes there’s plenty of room for us to improve the way we protect and capitalise on our unique place in the world.
Despite being one of the youngest to complete a Nuffield Scholarship, Sophie has been working in agritech for eight years. She shares a view of the role technology can play in agriculture; in both AI and in harnessing it’s power to tell food and fibre’s stories.
In this month’s episode, Bryan Gibson talks to New Zealand Climate Change Ambassador, Trish Rankin.
In 2019 Trish was Dairy Woman of the year and completed a Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme. For her research report she looked at on-farm rubbish and the ‘take, make, dispose’ economy that creates it.
Trish discusses responsibly tackling the rubbish a farm can generate and some strategies that improve on the past’s ‘throw it in a hole’ thinking. Trish wants us all to do better with rubbish.
In this episode, Bryan Gibson talks to 2018 Kellogg Scholar Penny Clark-Hall about her research on the social licence to operate in the rural economy.
How much trust do you have from your stakeholders? How it is gained, and how it is lost? How to engage with people in a positive way?
Read Penny's Kellogg report "How to Earn Your Social License to Operate" here: https://ruralleaders.co.nz/how-to-earn-your-social-licence-to-operate-penny-clark-hall/
In this month’s ‘Ideas that Grow’ podcast, we talk to Cam Henderson (2019 Nuffield Scholar) about on farm energy solutions.
Cam used his Nuffield research to explore links between agriculture and energy and how technology can work to harness farmed energy sources including waste matter to supply national energy needs.
Oscar Beattie graduated from the Kellogg Rural Leadership Programme in December 2020 and has a First Class honours degree in Ag Science from Lincoln University. Oscar is a Horticultural Analyst Craigmore Sustainables in Christchurch.
This interview is focused around Oscar’s Kellogg Research Topic Sustainable Impact Investing into New Zealand’s Horticultural Sector: Is there an Opportunity and Can We Capitalise on It?
This month’s podcast features Siobhan O’Malley (2018 Kellogger) and Wayne Langford (2014 Kellogger), co-founders of Meat the Need - a charitable supply chain that allows NZ farmers to donate their produce to NZ families and food banks.
Siobhan and Wayne were the winners of the 2020 ‘Champion Award’ at the Primary Industries Awards in November this year – for their ‘Meat the Need’ charity.
Tune in to this episode with Mat Hocken, 2017 Nuffield Scholar who shares with us his experiences on his Nuffield journey.
Mat explains why he chose his research topic ‘Innovation in Agriculture,’ which lead to the creation of the Rural Innovation Lab (which was created as the trusted place where innovators can design, deliver and work with farmers and growers throughout the innovation process) with partner James Stewart, when he return from his Nuffield Scholarship.
Cameron Henderson (2019 Nuffield Scholar) used his Nuffield Scholarship to explore links between agriculture and energy and how technology can work to harness farmed energy sources including waste matter to supply national energy needs.
Hamish Murray – 2019 Nuffield NZ Scholar and High country farmer in Marlborough looked into the topic of engaging and motivating the next generation of staff on farm. What do our future farm work places have to become to be relevant and attractive to a new generation of employees and how can an older generation adapt/change?
For more than 40 years glyphosate has been an invaluable chemical weapon in farmers’ arsenal as a low-residue, safe and simple weed control enabling greater flexibility and less soil disturbance.
Canterbury arable farmer Hamish Marr devoted his Nuffield Scholarship to examining how glyphosate fell from grace in the public eye and what farmers can to do to preserve it as an invaluable crop treatment.
Farming has always been an occupation involving plenty of pressure; managing the weather, competing with other nations to trade products globally, dealing with fluctuating and unpredictable prices. What’s different today is the added aspects of social judgement and fast change occurring in international food.
Nuffield Scholar Corrigan Sowman investigated how this pressure is affecting farmer decision making globally and what it means for change in the New Zealand primary sector.
Ben Hancock (2019 Nuffield NZ Scholar) is a Senior Insights Analyst at Beef + Lamb New Zealand. Born and raised on his family’s hill country sheep and beef farm in Wairarapa, New Zealand
Ben’s Nuffield research 'Rural leadership: taming the wicked problems' set out to explore how agriculture could get ahead of social and political issues facing the industry, to lead the conversation, rather than react, while at the same time retain social capital.
2018 Nuffield NZ Scholar based in Nelson, New Zealand presents his Nuffield Research topic: Exporting Aotearoa : A new business model for nutrition and health.
Andy is a Research & Business Development Manager for Whakatu Corporation and he is passionate about the opportunity Aotearoa has to reposition our export offerings.
Simon Cook, 2018 Nuffield NZ Scholar presents his Nuffield Research topic: Biosecurity: The importance of the farm gate.
Simon is a third generation Kiwifruit Orchardist, based in Te Puke who developed an interest in bio-security following the PSA incursion that impacted the Kiwifruit industry in 2010.
Solis Norton, 2018 Nuffield NZ Scholar presents his Nuffield Research topic: Energy use in New Zealand’s primary food production chains and a transition to lower emissions.
Solis trained at Massey University and is working in New Zealand's Deer Industry. He brings a mix of academic and industry experience to leading New Zealand agriculture towards generally sustainable farming systems from an energy and emission perspective.
2018 Nuffield NZ Scholars Andy Elliot, Simon Cook and Solis Norton discuss their Nuffield research findings and insights in this panel discussion
Kate Scott, 2018 Nuffield NZ Scholar presents her Nuffield Research topic: Enabling better environmental outcomes in agriculture
Kate is a Founder & Director of LandPro Ltd a planning and surveying company she jointly funded in 2017 and a founder of GroundHQ.
As a Resource Management Planner working primarily in the primary sector Kate has seen the continual changes in farming around increased regulation along with the need to make changes to manage the effects of farming activities. The focus of Kate’s Nuffield research was to understand if there are some better approaches being undertaken elsewhere around the world that can be applied in New Zealand to understand how we can enable better environmental outcomes.
Turi McFarlane, 2018 Nuffield NZ Scholar presents his Nuffield Research topic: Farm planning for a sustainable future.
Turi is a Senior Farm Environmental Consultant at Ravensdown in Canterbury and has a background in Agricultural Science and Extension and Natural Resource Management.
Turi’s Nuffield research topic focuses on the optimisation of farm systems for sustainable outcomes in agriculture.
2018 Nuffield NZ Scholars Kate Scott and Turi McFarlane discuss their Nuffield research findings and insights in this panel discussion
2018 Nuffield NZ Scholars join together for a panel discussion around the opportunities within New Zealand food & fibre sector in post covid world.