Tough Things First: Recent Episodes
Ray Zinn
Ever wonder why some leaders build unbreakable teams while others fuel endless conflict? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explores how true civility comes from one essential skill: seeing through the other person’s eyes—strengthens relationships and drives real business results. (Watch Now!)
Rob Artigo: Ray, as you know, a couple of times each month we do a video podcast. So this is a special edition of the Tough Things First podcast on video. You can watch it by going to toughthingsfirst.com and you can find this podcast by looking at the podcast and then right where the podcast is led into is a little thing that says watch now and you can do that. So today we’re talking about something that sounds basic, but is actually one of the toughest things first for many leaders. It’s called civility, specifically how civility strengthens human relationships, drives better business results, and why it all depends on one skill, awareness of other people’s perspectives where they’re coming from. Ray, why do you think civility feels harder today than it ever has?
Ray Zinn: Well, I’m not sure it’s any different. Harder we’ll talk about, but I don’t think it’s any different than we’ve had. Remember back in the revolutionary time, I’ve forgotten now, but there was two political leaders that actually had a gunfight, a duel. And so this animosity, this antagonism has always existed in politics. That’s why we refer to it as dirty politics. And I’ve never, of course, in my lifetime, I’ve never seen it worse. I’ve seen it as bad, but not any worse than it is now. So it’s to the point where they refuse to even acknowledge each other. Even celebrating something like the 4th of July, they weren’t even willing to acknowledge their relationship on a great anniversary of the 250th, the birth of this nation. So I think it’s a power struggle. I think anytime their power feels threatened, then they feel they need to lash out.
It’s almost like a war. A war is a battle between two opposing parties. And so instead of looking at the relationship and trying to build relationships between differing opinions, they choose to go to battle like we currently have in Iran. They want to bomb each other and destroy the opposition physically, not just psychologically, but physically. The animosity is just over the top.
Rob Artigo: Well, let’s talk a little bit about perspectives. Perspective awareness isn’t about agreeing with the other person or excusing bad behavior. So I mean, kind of going in with what you were talking about with the Iran situation. But I mean, can we be curious here, over-reactionary and get a different perspective? I think when it comes to. We’re not an international affairs show here. We’re not a political show here.
Ray Zinn: No.
Rob Artigo: But at the same time, just using it as an example, we’ve seen the behavior of one side pretty clearly over years, if not decades. And it’s hard to take a step back for a second and say, maybe there’s something different going on here. But still perspective-wise and being civil. And I think another example you brought up recently was just interpersonal relationships. If you’re having a discussion with somebody and you’re talking bad about them, you’re not really helping with the civility situation, just virtue of what you’re saying.
Ray Zinn: Exactly. So the thing that concerns me the most is that we’re not willing to listen. You can’t learn if you’re talking. And so we need to spend less time talking and more time listening to each other. Not just listening to the words, but listening to the reaction, listening to other commentary that they’re presenting. And we’re not talking about Republicans, Democrats, and Independents, we’re talking about people. These are human beings. They have their feelings, they have their differences. And you and I are good friends, but we have our differences. And we don’t have to look at differences as being bad. And I think that’s what’s happening is we’re looking at differences as being evil or terrible or bad. And we have to step back a pace and say, “What is it about this particular subject that is differing with my view on that subject?” And then listen, not just babble on, but that’s an interesting word, babble on, but to be concerned enough to show sincere concern why there’s that difference between the two of us or the groups as you would.
Rob Artigo: Let’s talk about business. In the business world and in the business environment, why is civility a competitive advantage, not just a nice to have trait?
Ray Zinn: Well, because if you respect your opponent, then they’re going to be less antagonistic. And even in a football game or a sports match, the less trash talking, the less badmouthing that we do, the more likely it is we’ll enjoy the competition. I remember playing ping pong with my wife when I was younger, and I used to give her a hard time about the missing shots and stuff that she took. And she says, “I’m not enjoying this at all. So if you’re going to do this, then we’re not going to play ping pong together.” And I learned a lesson about that very early on in our marriage that you don’t want to make competitive relationships hard on each other. You want to make it enjoyable. So when I was running Micrel, I actually enjoyed my competition. I didn’t badmouth them. I really respected them. And it’s called healthy competition.
Healthy, you’ve heard that term. And so healthy competition is one where there’s a relationship where a person is competing against another person, but it’s done in a good way. It’s done in a way to promote civility, to promote civility. Do you see the difference?
Rob Artigo: Yes. And you mentioned the word opponent early on. And when you are referring to an opponent, particularly in a business environment, you’re talking about someone you see as a friendly adversary, somebody who is… You’re competing on a level of business, but not on a level of like you want to wreck somebody or destroy somebody. It’s a figure of speech. You don’t see them as the enemy. You see them as a foe in the sense that we do when we play football or we run track, we line up on the starting line to sprint. We’re next to people that we’re competing against. They are the foe, but they’re not necessarily an enemy.
Ray Zinn: That’s right. 100%. Yeah. When we view anyone as an enemy, that takes on a whole different view and posture. We look at them as an opponent with an opposing view, whether it be pricing, whether it be technology, what to call a friendly competition. And we ought to have, referring back now to this civility thing, we ought to have a friendly disagreement where we choose to agree to disagree. And we’re not going to convince everybody of what we believe is correct or right in our mind. We just need to make sure that we understand their position because it has to start there to understand why they believe the way they do and then not make it a unfriendly bashing, saying nasty things about each other. And so I refer to it as friendly disagreement. That’s what civility is, friendly disagreement.
Rob Artigo: And let’s wrap it up with one last thought on that. And that’s that you can tell when somebody views another person as an enemy, but when they can celebrate or even vocalize a negative thing about that other person when you’re… I’ll put it another way, kicking a person when they’re down. If you’re kicking them when they’re down, then you’re not doing anything that’s going to help you in a matter of civility going forward because you’re going to be viewed as somebody who just wants to hit when the person is weak.
Ray Zinn: The primary solution to civility is humility. So humility goes along with civility. And humility is the willingness to listen to another person’s opinion. That’s what humility is or viewpoint. Whether it be a marriage, whether it be a child-parent relationship, a business, differences within the organizations. We’re going to have differences. Differences are a matter of fact. That’s just nature. We’re just going to be different. But not berating and not hammering these differences is the key to civility. So having humility goes along with being civil. So we call it the civil humility.
Rob Artigo: Thanks, Ray. Great wisdom there and we appreciate it. And to our listeners, this week, I guess your challenge is to pick one interaction you have with someone, whether it’s personal or professional, where you’d normally react quickly. Maybe you could take a second, sit back for a moment and seek the other person’s perspective and respond with civility. Even if it’s a negative thing coming at you, you don’t have to respond with being negative. Note the difference it makes in your life. Join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions and comments are always welcome. Follow Ray on X, Facebook and LinkedIn. And of course pick up Ray’s books. They’re great. The Tough Things First. The Essential Leader, which is a fantastic business leadership book just as a great tale to Tough Things First and the Zen of Zen series. And the one, two, and three, of course, and also Zen of Zen Daily, which is out now.
Thanks again, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.
You’ve probably heard people say that morality is declining — but is it really? And what’s the real difference between being a moral person versus an amoral one? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn cuts through the noise with clear thinking on why the distinction matters more than ever.
Rob Artigo: Today we’re tackling a foundational but often avoided topic, morality. Specifically, what’s the difference between being moral and amoral and is morality actually deteriorating either in the United States or around the world? So Ray, let’s start with the definitions. Why does the distinction between these two matter?
Ray Zinn: Okay, so morality is based on the moral law, which comes from the 10 Commandments of the book of Moses. It refers to, “Love thy neighbor as thyself, thou shall not commit adultery, thou shall not steal. So that’s the moral law.” The moral law is the God-given law that most countries that follow the moral law have as part of their constitution and their legal system.
So that’s we call the moral law. Being moral, meaning following the 10 Commandments. Amoral is defined by law of the government. In other words, the government defines a law as opposed to it coming from the Mosaic law or from the Book of Moses, the Pentateuch, not based on the 10 Commandments such as speeding, such as tax law, other forms of laws, house construction. Those are referred to as amoral. Amoral simply means not necessarily associated with the moral law or the 10 Commandments.
So there’s lots of laws, we got laws for everything, gun carry with regard to certain construction requirements. So those laws are not based on the 10 Commandments.
Rob Artigo: Looking at the bigger picture, many people feel like morality is declining. Is it really deteriorating in the world or is it just a perspective that we have stronger here in the US?
Ray Zinn: Well, I think it’s deteriorating around the world. I don’t necessarily believe it’s just the US. And let’s talk about how do we measure it? How do we measure deterioration? And it has to do with religion, not having a religious aspect to your life. Fewer and fewer people are considering themselves religious. And so that’s a measure of morality as you would, is being non-religious. So without that religious contingency or that factor in your life, you tend to not concern yourself or follow what we refer to as the moral law. So that’s what I see as happening is the deterioration of people attending religious services or being involved in religious services. Back in the day, as you would in the ancient times, the social relationship between communities or within communities was church, was religion. In fact, the church building was the center of the town or of the community.
That hallmark or having that religious symbol was important in that day because that’s how people socialized. But now with the internet and with churches no longer being the center of a community, that has caused, I think, a morality issue in the communities, whether it be in our country or in the US or outside and other countries.
Rob Artigo: What advice would you give today’s leaders who want to strengthen morality in their teams and their organizations?
Ray Zinn: It’s to promote it. Promote morality rather than degradate it as you would. They need to promote morality. They need to promote the mosaic law. I remember it wasn’t a few years ago they weren’t even allowing to have the 10 Commandments in the classroom. We’re trying to eliminate all religious symbols in our daily lives, whether it be prayer, no longer can even have prayer anymore. The Pledge of Allegiance, “One nation under God”, they’re trying to eliminate that. That was put in back in Eisenhower’s time. “One nation under God” was put in and now we’re trying to take it out and on our coins, “In God we trust”, we’re trying to take that out. And so we’re trying to, as a country and our relationship with the rest of the world, we’re trying to eliminate God. And when you do, you degradate or deteriorate morality.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, it becomes moral relativism. That’s a big thing there that’s being pushed in schools right now. So the question I would have for you lastly here is, is there hope for reversing this trend?
Ray Zinn: It depends upon what our leaders do, what kind of examples we’re setting. Each of us is an example. Individually, we need to promote morality. I remember when I was visiting England and some of the cathedrals and some of the other religious architecture they had in England, I noticed that there were very few people attending those things. And I was asking one of the docents there, “Why is it hardly anybody is going to church?” And she says, “Well, that’s because religion’s considered for older people.” And I thought that was interesting. So it’s the older people, I guess because they feel more tenuous in their life that they’re being more religious. But it was interesting that that young person said, “Religion’s for older people.”
Rob Artigo: I have heard that some of that is starting to come back in the minds of young people.
Ray Zinn: Yes, yes.
Rob Artigo: I don’t know if that’s around the world, but I’ve heard that occurring and-
Ray Zinn: No.
Rob Artigo: … that’s a hope it’s-
Ray Zinn: It’s happening around the world. That’s true because the younger people are recognizing the deterioration of morality and that is causing them to want to reverse that. So I do think there is hope for that because the younger generation is seeing the impact of non-morality or amorality is having a major influence on their life.
Rob Artigo: Well, our listeners can take an honest look at the moral culture in their organization. So your team, even your home is a place for this sort of thing. Are you actively building a moral framework or allowing a morality to creep in? This week you can identify one area where you can raise the standard and do the tough things first by addressing it. Right, Ray?
Ray Zinn: Absolutely. Let’s go for it.
You have heard it said many times, but most people get it wrong. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn uses smart business logic not magic to demystifying the proverb “Trust But Verify.”
Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, joined once again with Ray, as you’ve just heard his voice right there, founder, longtime CEO at Micrel Semiconductor for 37 profitable years. Ray, today, we’re unpacking a well-known phrase, trust but verify. That was a phrase that was popularized back in the 80s by President Ronald Reagan. He famously used those words during the Cold War era nuclear disarmament negotiations with the Soviet Union. And that worked out well in the near term after that, but obviously, it’s important. Trust but verify. How did you apply this at Micrel over four decades?
Ray Zinn: First of all, Ronald Reagan meant that as an oxymoron. Let’s unpack or unbox-
Rob Artigo: Okay. Yeah, let’s do that.
Ray Zinn: … unbox the term. If you trust somebody, you don’t have to verify. It’s an oxymoron to say, I trust you, but I need to verify it. Because trust inherently eliminates the need for verification. And so if we think about the new EV vehicles that are now self-driving, we recently heard of a serious accident where a woman was killed by an EV vehicle that was still being watched or managed by a driver, but something happened with the self-driving software, so there’s a good example of trust, but verify. They’re blaming the driver who was apparently doing something else and not paying attention and watching his car. So you can trust as you would the managing of the car by software, but then being a backup or being a safety, verifying that there’s not something gone wrong with the system. So while it does sound a little bit like an oxymoron, because if you truly trust it, you do, you have to verify it.
Having said that, there are ways that you can still trust someone to do a good job in their occupation, but verify it through peaceful or good means where you are validating that something is being done properly. But I don’t want to minimize the value of trust. When you truly trust somebody, you don’t have to micromanage them. If you’re a micromanager and using that bad term of micromanaging, that means you’re basically asking them to do a job, but you’re basically taking it over and doing it yourself, that’s micromanaging. Or always questioning what they’re doing. If you’re always questioning what your employees are doing, you’re micromanaging. That’s the bad side of micromanaging. And then there’s a good side of micromanaging that we cover in our book where you are trust but verifying, meaning you are letting them do the job, but you’re watching the output. In other words, you’re looking at the results and making sure that that matches what the trust that you should employ with your employee.
Rob Artigo: The micromanaging, and you mentioned the book, The Essential Leader, there’s a whole chapter on that and that’s the right way to do micromanaging and how micromanaging gets a bad rap because people don’t do it right. And I think that’s where we’re going with that is that micromanaging can be, you can be a micromanager and do the trust, but verify and then verify heavy-handed, but micromanaging the right way, that is verifying without damaging relationships.
Ray Zinn: Because verifying as a consequence, like what President Trump said, that during the verification process that Iran is not adhering to the MOU, then he’s going to just bomb the heck out of them. And so …
Rob Artigo: Yikes.
Ray Zinn: … the verification comes with a penalty. And that’s the big problem of the process of verifying is how critical you are going to be in your response. And so with your employees, when you verify, and you see an issue, rather than bomb the heck out of them, you sit down with them and say, how can we improve this particular area, what can we do different or better, how can I help you? As opposed to, I’m going to blow your mind or I’m going to sever your ties with the company.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. And here’s a Ray Zinn checklist for you, built on doing the Tough Things First and also the details that we find in The Essential Leader, your other big book. Practical ways leaders can verify without damaging relationship. That’s the type of verify you’re talking about here is you’re not heavy-handed with the verification. So number one, this is a three-point checklist that the listeners can get out a pen and write it down, or pencil, whatever. Write it down, make a note, and then think about these things to help develop your own leadership skills. So the first one is having clear expectations upfront. Everyone knows the goals, timelines and how progress will be measured. There aren’t any surprises. It’s just getting the information out there makes a difference, right? Making sure that people understand what’s going on.
Ray Zinn: It’s like knowing where their limitations are. That’s the key. Know the strength and the weaknesses of your employees. So you double up on their strength, and you have double down on their weaknesses. So again, you don’t beat them over the head with their weaknesses, but you recognize it, and you plan for it. In a particular design, if there’s a particular area that is vulnerable to having error, you back it up. You verify it. You don’t want your employees to fail. In other words, what you want to do is build your system so that they win and not lose.
That’s the problem we’re having in politics today is we have this built-in loss or built in … We’re hoping they lose or hoping they fail, and that’s just not a good situation. So you want to have your process and procedures in place such as that you don’t hope that they lose, you hope that they win, and you provide that mechanism that allows them to win, and you minimize when they fail or when they lose. So as long as your employees know that you’re not going to blow the heck out of them, bomb them, their death or whatever, when they slip on a particular area, then they’re more likely to improve and grow …
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Ray Zinn: … as opposed to want to protect themselves.
Rob Artigo: It’s the holding on to that trust thing, making sure that they continue to have the sense of trust that you have in them.
Ray Zinn: Exactly.
Rob Artigo: And number two is regular light touch-ins like short updates, dashboards, quick walkthroughs, instead of a heavy oversight that overwrought micromanaging can be.
Ray Zinn: Right. So again, you don’t want to be banging them over the head with a stick. You want a light touch checking up, seeing how they’re doing. Look at them as a loved one, as somebody that you admire, so treat them like they’re very valuable, like they’re delicate, and they need that soft support as opposed to that hard line macro managing where they get beat over the head.
Rob Artigo: Number three, focus on outcomes in learning. I know you alluded to this, but this is definitely one that I think about when I think about the Ray Zinn style. When something is off, ask what can we learn rather than who’s at fault in pointing the fingers.
Ray Zinn: Exactly. Right.
Rob Artigo: This turns verification into coaching.
Ray Zinn: Exactly. That’s what good coaching does. Good coaching strengthens, bad coaching disciplines. So you want to be high on coaching on the positive and less coaching on the negative. Meaning where you don’t want to be as hard line coach that you’re looked upon as being an enemy as opposed to being a friend. So a coach as a friend, not as an enemy.
Rob Artigo: Ray, thanks for breaking this down so clearly for us. The listeners should check out Ray’s books, The Essential Leader and Tough Things First. They both dive into these kinds of practical fundamentals. Grab a copy wherever books are sold. Visit Tough Things First for more episodes, the blog, and information about Ray Zinn and ZinnStarter, the mentoring program. So what’s your experience with trust but verify? You can share in the comments at toughthingsfirst.com. And remember, do the tough things first. Verify early, often, and trust can actually grow right, but you’ve got to be able to do the verification the right way. Right, Ray?
Ray Zinn: Exactly. Verify lovingly.
THIS PODCAST WAS RECORDED BEFORE THE LATEST DEVELOPMENTS WITH THE US AND IRAN. IT REMAINS RELEVANT.
Can an entrepreneur succeed and staying profitable even when some much seems out of control? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn has a reality check and some words of inspiration. (Watch Now!)
Ray Zinn: Hey Rob, good to be with you today.
Rob Artigo: Ray, this is a special edition of the Tough Things First Podcast. We are on video. Listeners can, if they want to watch, go to toughthingsfirst.com, navigate to this podcast, and then just click on watch now and it’ll open up on your YouTube channel. And there’s a bunch of other videos there as well if they want to watch them.
Today’s topic, leading through geopolitical whiplash, staying profitable when the world shakes with fresh US ren negotiations all over the news right now, it’s really dominating world affairs. This recent memorandum of understanding, there’s talks in Switzerland that went on ongoing ripples around the Strait of Hormuz, and energy markets, global uncertainty, really front and center.
So let’s start with the current landscape. We’re seeing progress in US-Iran talks. Depends on which side you’re listening to. We know that President Trump tends to be more optimistic and the Iranians tend to want their people to think they’re being tough. So they say a lot of things that are just different than what the US government is saying regarding the negotiations, and there’s no real way to tell what’s going on behind those closed doors. So there’s this 60-day roadmap efforts to reopen the shipping lanes, oil swings. How should leaders view this kind of volatility right now?
Ray Zinn: It’s interesting because you have both countries that are trying to be optimistic. Iran’s trying to be optimistic, United States is trying to be optimistic, which is good. I mean, if you look at some of the best football games, both sides are optimistic. Both sides believe they’re going to win. It’s got to be a win-win. It’s got to be a win-win for Iran. It’s got to be a win-win for the United States. The definition of what win-win is open for discussion. That’s what we’re going to talk about today. In any case, every country that has been involved with the United States has really done pretty well. I mean, look at Venezuela getting rid of Madura. Venezuela is doing much better now that they’ve got a cooperation with the US.
When we become good competitors as opposed to bad competitors, that’s when both sides win. So that’s the win-win when both sides benefit. The Iranian people are very intelligent, very well-educated, and they’re technically a very strong people, and have been since the beginning of time as you would for thousands of years. Anytime you’re ruled by a theocracy, again, that becomes difficult because you’re trying to merge a theocratical set of policies against really what works in the world today. If your politics are such that you believe you’re the only one that’s right and everybody else is wrong, that’s when you don’t get along. Whether it be neighbors, whether it be friends, whether it be spouses, whether it be children, there’s always that issue of balancing win-win. You can’t always have it your way. You to have it both ways.
And I think the current administration in the US trying to make it a win-win for both countries. If the belief is that the one country is going to destroy the world or destroy society, that’s going to affect the other side, which doesn’t want to be destroyed as you would. And so rather than putting a marker on who’s who there, we’ve got a conflict currently in the Middle East with Iran and their neighbors and also with what we call the free world. And if you believe your neighbor is going to do you in, you’re going to put up your fences. You’re going to arm yourself. You’re going to try to keep that neighbor under control. And that’s the problem we have with the US and Iran is that the US believed that Iran is up to no good. And Iran hasn’t proven that they’re up to good.
So they’ve convinced at least the majority of the world that they’re up to no good according to the surveys, the polls that we’ve done. And so we have to protect ourselves as you would. And sometimes a good defense is a good offense, and that’s kind of where we were in the last couple of months. There’s no need of destroying Iran. Iran is a good country, good people, but we need to set the red line as you would, or set the stage for continued relations where we don’t look upon Iran as a bad neighbor. And so the Iranians are very proud, very proud people, and they don’t want to look at that as being put down, squashed as you would. And I think the administration’s trying to do that. There’s a lot of political implications associated with the relationship between the Middle East and the rest of the free world, which revolves around oil.
20% of all oil flows through the Strait of Hormuz. That has to be opened back up. It’s affecting oil prices. You can see what’s happening right now is by the United States opening up the Strait of Hormuz that oil prices are coming down. And that’s necessary for the administration currently to not let it harm the midterm elections. That oil price thing has been used by the opposition party to castigate the current administration and their party as being inflationary and as causing a lot of problems with the poorer families because of the cost of fuel and fertilizer and other things that are associated with the opening up of the Strait of Hormuz.
So I’d like to see the administration work out a good deal with the Iranians and the Middle East so that we can have more peace as you would, less war or less battling and contention. So that’s what I would like to see. And if we give the current administration a little bit of breathing room, I think that they’ll pull that off. They have a political motivation to cease that to conflict because it will help them during the midterm if they can get the oil prices back down because oil prices affect everything. And so I think we all understand that. I would like to see a more peaceful resolution with the Iranians, and I’d like not to have to see that country destroyed just to make them listen as you would.
Rob Artigo:
Yeah, we’ll close it out with this question. On the opportunity side, because we’re thinking about the business environment in the United States, talking to our listeners who many are entrepreneurs, they’re founders of their own business, or they’re running their own businesses or thinking about running a business. How can smart leaders turn this whiplash environment? As you say, that the oil prices going up and down and various key indicators going up and down rapidly and with large moves. How do they turn this whiplash into an advantage? I know you did that with Micrel on many downturn opportunities.
Ray Zinn:
Well, downturns bring upturns because the worse and more severe the downturn, the harder we work to reverse that to give it an upturn. So I see currently in the market, a lot of these tech stocks are getting a little overpriced. So I say watch out, be careful because with inflation up a little bit and these stock prices are pretty high, I think we need to take a little bit of a pause here, even though we do expect there to be good growth in US. In fact, the growth that we’re seeing is about twice what I had forecasted for 2026, and the stock market’s reflecting that.
So if you’re not in the stock market, you’re not doing very well. If you are in the stock market, you’re going to do quite well. So again, it’s a matter of timing. I think we’re peaking a little bit on the stock. And so I’m not saying you want to vacate the market, but you may want to relax a little bit and realize that the trees don’t grow all the way to the sky, and so we’re not going to se this kind of growth continue for the next year and a half. So cautionary effort to just watch out. I mean, we are peaking. We’re growing a little faster than what seems to be legitimate. And let’s just be on the cautious side over the next six to nine months.
Rob Artigo:
Yeah, Ray, your advice is always grounded and insightful in this area. And if you predicted the dot-com bust, I’m hearing that you’re not saying watch for a bust, but you might be saying watch for a correction and be aware of that. And maybe now is the time to take a little bit of the profits and set it aside and get ready for kind of a dip. I think that’s what I’m hearing. Is that pretty much correct?
Ray Zinn:
Right. Right. Again, I’m not forecasting a dot-com. It can happen again. We could get a dot-com implosion if we’re not watching, if we’re not being careful. Don’t spend the money just because you have it. Put away, as they say, sock some money away, and just be aware that I think things are peaking and that we need to be aware that we could see a little bit of a pullback over the next six to nine months.
Rob Artigo:
Okay, Ray, I want to tell the listeners they can check out your books. The latest one is The Zen of Zinn Daily. And don’t forget Tough Things First and the Essential Leader for more on building these skills that Ray talks about here on this podcast week in and week out. Visit toughthingsfirst.com for episodes of podcasts, more of those blogs. And the Zinn Starter Mentoring Program is discussed there and you can learn more about that as well. If you’re on a college campus or you’re running a college, this is something to look into and see if you can implement it there in your college as well. Subscribe and share your thoughts on today’s topic. And remember, do the tough things first, right, Ray?
Ray Zinn:
Absolutely. You can’t hurt doing the tough things first.
Every founder dreams big. But there’s a razor-thin line between ambition that builds empires and optimism that quietly destroys them. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explores the subtle but critical difference between an ambitious founder and an overly optimistic one.
Rob Artigo: Ray, today we’re exploring a subtle but critical distinction. What’s the difference between an ambitious founder and an overly optimistic one? This is something entrepreneurs really need right now. So let’s define the terms. What does healthy ambition look like in a founder?
Ray Zinn: The drive, the passion, that courage that you need to be a successful entrepreneur. That’s what being ambitious is.
Rob Artigo: So what separates that from being overly optimistic?
Ray Zinn: Okay. So optimism is good, meaning you’re looking at the bright side rather than, as they say, you’re looking at the green as opposed to the brown, and so you want to be an optimistic individual. Overly optimistic means that you’re not going to see the forest for the trees. You’re going to only see the good. You’re never going to see what’s around the corner. You need that periscope. Having a periscope is good. Overly optimistic without a periscope is bad. So for those that don’t know what a periscope is, it allows you to see while you’re still underwater, and so that’s a good analogy by the way, because when your company’s underwater, you still got to be able to see, and you got to be able to see what’s around you. Overly optimistic means you don’t have a periscope.
Rob Artigo: I think of Micrell, you probably had a lot of experiences there, but where this came into play, how does this show up in leadership style and team culture? How did it show up in Micrell, and how did that differ from other places that you had to do business with and had personal observations with in different companies?
Ray Zinn: Well, so when I started Micrell, of course I was very ambitious and was passionate about what I was doing and verified as you would, trust but verified, made sure that I was able to see the forest for the trees. I was always looking for obstacles that I had to overcome. I had my periscope up, and that’s being realistically optimistic as opposed to being unrealistically optimistic. When they say, don’t confuse me with the… My mind’s made up, don’t confuse me with the facts, is a problem with an overly ambitious, I mean overly optimistic entrepreneur, because if you say, “Don’t confuse me with the facts,” then you’re really not being a realistic entrepreneur. Being a good entrepreneur means that you are passionate, you drive, you got the enthusiasm to stay at the helm as you would, because in rough seas, you need to have somebody at the helm that knows how to quarter the seas.
So you don’t want to be overly optimistic such that you’re saying, “Well, when I climb this wave, I know I’ll be okay on the other side.” You want to quarter the wave. You don’t want to hit the wave head on, and so that’s the analogy of being optimistic, but not overly optimistic.
Rob Artigo: You have a simple checklist that does walk along those same lines you were just describing. Our listeners are founders of businesses, small and large. There are people who are in college who are looking at the possibility of opening their own businesses, doing their startups, getting their ideas out there, and this is your list of the practical ways to stay ambitious without sliding into over optimism. So this is a list of three points. The first one, if you’re out there and you’re listening and you grab a pen, you can write these down. The first one is, are my goals based on real market data and consumer input or just my own excitement? You can be fooled into thinking that you’re all that in a bag of chips, and in reality, your idea is not that great.
Ray Zinn: Well, that was my comment earlier about, “Don’t confuse me with the facts.” In other words, if you’re not willing to face the facts, then you’re going to be violating that first principle. Look at the numbers, look at the facts, and don’t be fooled by your lack of reasoning, as you would. Say my mind’s made up. Don’t have your mind made up. Look at the numbers, look at the facts. Work with the numbers and the facts. Don’t ignore them.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, definitely don’t ignore them. Number two is, do I have clear milestones and exit ramps if things don’t go as planned? That’s what you were just talking about there, is if you’re overly pleased with yourself, you’re not open-minded enough to plan for change or pivoting when you have to.
Ray Zinn: Well, I’m a pilot and I fly my plane, and there’s that term we use, is to make sure that we have enough fuel to land and then go to an alternate airport, and when we file our IFR flight plan, instrument flight rules, by FAA rules, we have to have enough fuel to reach our destination and an additional amount to go 45 minutes to an alternate airport, because weather changes quickly in business, and so the environment changes quickly, and so you need to have enough fuel, enough money, enough resources to go to an alternate pivot airport and land safely. So that’s the analogy I use for that second principle is have enough fuel money as you would to go to an alternate airport or an alternate avenue, a resource.
Rob Artigo: Well, number three depends on a crew. Of course, you were just talking about flying and you have people there with you who not only take care of the plane in the air, but on the ground, and the question is here in number three, am I surrounding myself with people who will tell me the truth and not just cheer me on? In other words, “Hey Ray, I’m glad you’re flying. Go out there and do this,” and then they neglect to tell you you only have 35 minutes of fuel instead of 45.
Ray Zinn: Yeah. You’re not the only one that’s going to be checking the airplane. I mean, you have it in service to make sure that everything is working properly. You got to trust the company, the mechanics that are working on the plane, and then also your people are fueling your plane. You got to make sure that they’re fueling it with the right kind of fuel and not the wrong kind of fuel, and that those who’ve planned your flight are giving you the right information about your flight en route as well as your landing destination and your alternate airport you want to go to. So having the right people around you is key to landing safely or flying safely.
Rob Artigo: Ray, I appreciate the advice, and it’s a pleasure to talk to you once again.
Listeners, Ray’s book, Tough Things First, is out there, as well as The Essential Leader. They’re full of practical advice and insights just like this. Pick up a copy, and check out the other titles as well, the Zen of Zen series. Ray’s latest book as well, Zen of Zen Daily, 366 total, because of leap year day, readings that you can do every day and learn something from it, and then put them into action every day and make yourself a better leader, better coworker, better employer or employee, whichever the case may be.
Go to toughthingsfirst.com for more episodes, the blogs, and the Zen Starter mentoring program is explained there as well.
Well, have you seen the difference between ambition and over-optimism in your own journey? Well, then share your comments at toughthingsfirst.com, and remember, do the tough things first, right, Ray?
Ray Zinn: Exactly.
Ray Zinn is no gambler. In business, his trump card is knowledge. In this Tough Things First podcast, we explore why smart persistence is educated decision making.
Rob Artigo: Well, today it’s really about smart persistence, knowing when to double down and when to just walk away gracefully. This is one of the toughest calls any leader can make. So let’s start with double down side. How do you know when to just keep on pushing when you’re facing challenges?
Ray Zinn: Well, look at the direction that things are headed. When things are going well, double down. When things are not going so well, back off. We talked about that in earlier podcast about the stock market. When the stock market looks like it’s rolling good, double down. And that’s what I’ve been doing, is I’ve been doubling down on the market for the last year and a half and I’ve been just plowing my resources from bonds into the equity market and it’s paid off. But now I see things kind of peaking and I’m a little concerned.
Ray Zinn Cont:And so now I’m pulling a little bit back off the table and moving more back into fixed assets and less into equities because again, I see things are kind of peaking. So how do you know when to back down and when to press forward? Is look where things are headed. I mean, we do that when we drive a car. When we see a flashing yellow light or yellow light comes on, we slow down. When we see the green light comes on, we press forward. When we see the red light comes on, we stop. Be aware of the direction or dynamics of business and the market. Know when to hold them and when to fold them. I think there’s a song about that, Rob.
Rob Artigo: The gambler.
Ray Zinn: Yeah. Know when to hold them and know when to fold them.
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Ray Zinn: This goes right along with our topic today. You got to know when to hold and when to fold.
Rob Artigo: How do you develop that judgment? Think of yourself and of course you know from your lifetime of experience in business. How do leaders in business or entrepreneurs develop the judgment to make a call like that? I mean, sometimes the amber or yellow light looks a little orange or it looks a little more, I don’t know, something else.
Ray Zinn: Chartreuse.
Rob Artigo: Like rainbow or something. Yeah, Chartreuse. And then how do you develop that to make that judgment call? It feels like the tough things first. I mean, doing the tough things first.
Ray Zinn: My pilot loves Bridge. I mean, he’s a Bridge player. For those of you who’ve ever played the game of Bridge. And it’s a very strategic game. It’s like running a company. It’s a card game. I don’t know if ands or what’s about it, but you have a partner and you play against the other partner, their team. Usually there’s two teams, you and your partner and them and their partner. You got to be watching how they’re playing and how they’re calling their suits and their Trumps and whatever.
And you just got to be aware. I think the reason that most companies fail is because they’re not being aware. They’re not realizing what the other side’s doing or what’s happening in the marketplace. So running a company is very strategic like playing Bridge. It’s very strategic and you have to pay attention. You got to know when to hold them and when to fold them.
When I ran Micrel for 37 years, I had eight downturns and so I had to know when to hold them and when to fold them. And I did that and we were very successful. I mean, not that the downturn didn’t hurt. It hurt terrifically, but we were ready for it. We were prepared. The being strategic like in playing Bridge is very important in running a company. You got to be aware of where the market’s headed. Double up when it’s going well and double down when it’s going bad. And then just be like the song about playing poker, I guess it is, know when to hold them and know when to fold them.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. And I think that when you say fold them in a practical business sense, we’re talking about pivoting mostly. Because if you want to turn a walkaway moment into an opportunity, you don’t just walk away into oblivion, you walk and you turn in a direction that’s going to be helpful. So that’s a pivot. Right?
Ray Zinn: Well, I like playing basketball. I mean, there’s a lot of pivoting in basketball and there’s a lot of pivoting in Bridge and other card games. You have to be willing to pivot, change, restructure, modify, reengage. If you stay on the same suit or the same Trump as you would, you’re going to lose. You got to know when to hold them and when to fold in there, Rob.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, for our listeners, entrepreneurs, executives, and even people managing careers or big projects, is there a practical framework they can use for making decisions like that?
Ray Zinn: Read the Tough Things First. That book covers that. I mean, that book is it in spades. I cover a lot of stories, a lot of things that I had to do to run Micrel successfully. Micrel, we ran 37 years with only one year where we lost money. So 36 out of 37 years, we were profitable. That is a record. There’s no other company that I’m aware of that had that kind of a success record of only one loss in 37 years. So if you’re an athlete and you’ve got a track record of winning 36 out of 37 times, you’re a dog gone good athlete.
Rob Artigo: And you were a dog gone good business athlete so to speak. So…
Ray Zinn: Thank you.
Rob Artigo: Thank you for another insightful conversation, Ray. Listeners can pick up your book. The latest one is Zen of Zinn Daily and of course the Essential Leader, and Ray was just talking about Tough Things First. This is where you can find great stories that are, I guess you can call them specific Micrel stories where smart persistence and at a good decision to pivot made a big difference. So-
Ray Zinn: Absolutely.
Rob Artigo: … don’t waste that knowledge. Get in there and do the Tough Things First was to pick up a book and read. A lot of people don’t do that anymore, but you should. So visit toughthingsfirst.com. More episodes are there, blogs and information on the ZinnStarter mentoring program. Also, drop your thoughts in the comments. What’s a time you had to decide whether to double down or walk away? You can drop those in the comments. Just tell us what you’re thinking and we’ll bring them up on a future podcast because we’d like to know and want to learn from you. Remember, do the tough things first. Right, Ray?
Ray Zinn: And you know-
Rob Artigo: Oh.
Ray Zinn: … the book about Tough Things First is know when to hold them and when to fold them. It covers that. It covers how I was able to run Micrel for 37 years and 36 of those profitably.
Rob Artigo: Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.
In a world seemingly drowning in division and anger, why does hatred spread like a virus—and is it truly hardwired into human nature? On this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn unmasks the hatred and explores practical ways to stop what makes us toxic, before it poisons everything we value.
Ray Zinn: Hello, Rob. Good to be with you.
Rob Artigo: Today we’re talking a little bit about something other than business, although it relates to business in many ways. It’s deeper and more troubling if you think about it. Why is there so much hatred in the world right now? Is it simply human nature, or is there more to it? And what can leaders do about it? So let’s start there. Is hatred part of human nature?
Ray Zinn: Well, it depends upon which side of the fence you’re on. So hatred comes from being selfish. And so I think that selfishness, by some degree, is human nature. I mean, when a baby is born and they get it to cry. In other words, they spank its bottom or whatever they do to get… Because it makes them breathe more deeply. When a baby’s hungry, it cries, and it’s very irritating. You could say from that standpoint, crying is a part of hatred, as you would, because we’re expressing our dislike or our need for something.
Ray Zinn Cont: So again, hatred is really built around the characteristic of being selfish. And so you could say that selfishness is part of our nature. We look out for ourselves, and that’s the problem of focusing on ourselves rather than focusing outward. And so hatred revolves around, you’re upsetting me. You’re doing things that I don’t want you to do because it’s affecting me, and I’m more important than you. And that’s the problem with hatred is it’s very egocentric, very self-centered, and it revolves around your needs rather than the needs of other people. So when you show you’re more interested in them than you are in yourself, that’s looking outward. It’s when you think that you’re more important than someone else, that’s looking inward.
And so the problem that we’re facing in the world today is there’s a perceived difference in our feelings about each other, depending upon what political party you belong to. We have to quit throwing stones. As they say, people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. And we all have glass houses. We all have pitfalls and areas that we should improve and we should be aware that we’re not the only ones with issues or concerns. And we got to quit throwing stones, period. If we stop throwing stones, then nobody’s going to get their house broken.
So that’s the first thing. Quit all this bashing. I know that they talk about athletics, they talk about bashing the other team. I don’t know why that’s a feeling of making that team stronger or better or whatever, but it’s really not necessary. The athletic events that I’m most interested in are the ones that they don’t bash. Gymnastics is one that tends to not have a lot of bashing. Games like, oh, let’s see, trying to think of some others where they’re not doing a lot of… Race cars. There’s not very much bashing there.
It seems to be the ones where there’s one-on-one conflict, the battle. In gymnastics, you’re not really battling, you’re just performing. But in tennis, there’s a battle. Soccer, there’s a battle. Football, there’s a battle. Baseball, there’s a battle. Basketball, there’s a battle. So the ones that don’t seem to be you’re performing… Golf is another one that’s less contentious. And so you’re not really battling, you’re just performing. It’s the athletic events that are where you’re more of a performer than you are a battler tend to have less bashing.
So we have to quit looking at each other as we’re battling. We’re performing. That’s good. So perform. Be a performer. Show your capability by what you’ve done. Not that you’re beating somebody or you’re overtaking someone, but that you’re actually accomplishing something. Whether you’re a book author or a singer, or you’re a dancer, or you’re a good mother or a good father, a good student, that doesn’t require a battle. That just requires performing. So let’s go to being a performer, whether you’re a politician or you’re an athlete. Be a performer. Track and field is another one I should say that that’s more a performance as opposed to a battle. I’m saying the way we overcome hatred or we minimize it is just be a performer. Perform it. Show us your capability by what you’ve accomplished, not how much you can beat up someone else.
Rob Artigo: I think of being accomplished is better than being a conqueror. And I think that’s what I’m hearing from you. What turns that natural tendency in humanity into widespread hatred we see in society, politics, and even work places. What turns that? What’s the turning point? I think that might be what we’re referring to right here is changing your own mindset.
Ray Zinn: Quit throwing stones. Just perform. Just go do your job. As I said, people live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. We got to quit throwing rocks at each other.
Rob Artigo: Is there a difference between healthy disagreement and hatred?
Ray Zinn: Yes. I ran a semiconductor company for 37 years. I loved my competitors. I didn’t hate them. They were strong, very arduous competitors, but they didn’t throw stones. At least the ones that I competed against. They just performed. They just showed that they had a better product than I had or I showed I had a better product than they had. But I didn’t hate them at all. Actually, I need a good competitor because that strengthens my products. I become better if my competitors become better. So same thing as a political party. Each party should be better at what they’re doing, and that strengthens each of the parties. Be a performer, not a battler. That’s why I should say.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. For our listeners who are entrepreneurs, executives who are just trying to lead their families through this climate, from what I’m hearing from you, Ray, is start with not throwing stones.
Ray Zinn: Exactly. Quit throwing stones. Stop the rhetoric. Stop the bashing. That doesn’t serve any purpose.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, thanks. I know that our listeners, they come in, they tune in here because you have a powerful perspective. Obviously good advice. So grab a copy, listeners, Tough Things First book and also The Essential Leader. Visit toughthingsfirst.com for more episodes, the blogs. ZinnStarter Mentoring Program is delineated there. Talked about, discussed. Drop your thoughts on this topic in the comments. And remember, do the tough things first, right, Ray?
Ray Zinn: Absolutely. Just a real side comment. It made me feel good when my competitors had said, “Micrel’s a great company.” That made me feel better about saying, “And so is Linear Technology,” or Maxim, or my other competitors. I said, “These guys have great products.” And I wasn’t afraid to say something good about my competitor. And so I wasn’t a battler. I was a performer. I congratulated them on their performance. If we look at an athletic event and the performers give each other a hug and congratulate them on their win, to me, that’s the way it should be in a good competitive environment.
Rob Artigo: Being a gracious winner in that sense.
Ray Zinn: Right.
Rob Artigo: Thanks again, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you.
In a world divided by competing visions of prosperity, today on Tough Things First we tackle one of the most consequential debates in human history: Capitalism versus Socialism. Ray Zinn cuts through the ideology, examines real-world outcomes, and explores which system better delivers freedom, innovation, and human flourishing. (Watch Now…)
Rob Artigo: Big topic, Ray, in modern America, capitalism versus socialism. We have a real debate going on. We have the admitted socialist, maybe even a communist as a mayor of New York and other folks coming online as viable political candidates who are socialists who say they’re socialists and they don’t care if there’s a bad connotation to that or bad history related to that. So let’s start with the basics, Ray. In simple terms, what do you see as the core strengths of capitalism?
Ray Zinn: Well, capitalism is more of a nationalistic type economy. Everybody does their thing. Everybody gets paid for the labors, efforts that they put in, including companies. And so our country has always been based on more of a nationalistic, capitalistic society. It’s really more of you get what you pay for or you pay what you get. It has a strong growth potential because of the nature of it. If you can get what you need to get based on your income and your social status, then capitalism is good. And the purpose of capitalism really is to grow. I mean, capitalism is based on growth. And so capitalist societies tend to grow much faster than socialistic societies.
Ray Zinn Cont: So switching to socialism, socialism is based on social programs, based on giveaway type like food and shelter and health welfare. And so it’s more non-nationalistic. And that’s why you’ll see people who are more socialistic tend to not have borders. In other words, they lack borders. The key here in socialism is that it’s more focused on programs that favor the underdog or people who are down and out as you would because they’re more freebie. You rely heavily on the power of the economy to fund these social programs such as food, shelter, health, and they can refer to these as the basic needs. So as I said, again, they’re more related to no borders.
Now a communist society is a little different because they do have borders. If you look at all the communist countries, they’re more border related because they have to be by their nature because the government basically takes care of everybody. In other words, they run the system. But the problem is that government run programs are never very efficient. Anytime you have giveaways or freebies, they get taken advantage of and a lot more fraud.
If we look at the countries that are more socialistic as you would, there’s a lot more fraud because people take advantage of the freebies as you would or the socialistic type giveaways and they’re easy to take advantage of. Not so much under communism because the communists… Now the upper level of the communist party, the higher levels, they survive well. So I have relatives in Germany that were there under the Russians in East Germany and they said it’s terrible.
I mean, they said they were so happy when West Germany took over East Germany and it became one country. They hated being under the communist rule. And we know that wall, the Berlin Wall and the wall that separated East Germany from West Germany was put up by the communist. So they are very strong on borders and they’re very strong on keeping everybody under their thumb as you would.
Again, they suffered greatly under communism. My relatives did in Germany. I remember visiting them in the late ’80s, early ’90s and they didn’t have all the facilities we have here. They didn’t even have a toilet. I mean, they had a hole that they did their stuff in and their home was very ancient looking. In other words, when I went there, they pumped the water from an outside well and then they carried into the house. I mean, it reminded me so much of a underprivileged country and a third world country as you would. And so they were very happy to be part of Germany as a whole. And there was some adjustment they needed in order to do that because the two systems were totally different. West Germany was capitalistic and East Germany was communistic.
So now back on socialism. Socialism it’s a roadmap to communism and it is very border-centric. I mean socialism is not, but communism is very border-centric. And so socialism, we’re all one people, we’re all one country, we’re all one world. And so the love of country, the love of each other is different under socialism. You can see what Europe or England is going through right now. They’ve got way too much immigration. They actually can’t support that because the immigrants who are flooding the country need all these social services.
Under Biden, of course, the borders were open and a lot of socialism crept in. And so what we’re seeing now in the US is a consequence of all of that immigration that took place and then people saying, “Oh gosh, this is really great because everything is free. Free food, free cellphones, free rent, free health.” But nothing is free. There’s nothing in life worth having is free. And so there is a need for socialism in certain areas. Certain people need help and we should be there to help them. But making the whole country socialistic is dangerous and we’re going to slow our growth.
Our growth will slow down next to nothing. And so we can see that under the current administration, the markets are doing well, the growth is good and our borders are closed. But the people who are for socialism are upset because the socialistic programs in their mind are being minimized because they’re seeing all the growth and all the advantages of the wealthy, the billionaires, as you would, are looked upon as being evil as you would even. So in our country, in the United States of 300 plus million people, there are only 900 billionaires. And so if you’re going to tax 900 people, you’re not going to be able to support socialism on just billionaires.
Those who are promoting socialism are the ones that are more rioting. They’re more unrest as you would and they’re a very fanatical group. I personally am in favor of capitalism and I’ve done well under capitalism. And I don’t see myself doing very well under socialism. I do agree that we will and should have programs to help the underprivileged and that’s the way it should be in any country.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. Let’s wrap it up by discussing the difference between socialism and even communism compared to capitalism. One big difference that comes to mind is opportunity, self-determination versus government determination, if that’s a good way to put it. There’s a term that I always learned about growing up, which was called pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. It seems like you can’t really pick yourself up from nothing and make something out of nothing if you don’t have an opportunity to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and that’s a big dividing line between capitalism versus socialism. Am I right?
Ray Zinn: Right. Countries like China are trying to do a modified communist versus capitalism. They’re trying to modify it, but again, it’s not going to work. I mean, the people in China aren’t doing near as well as those in Taiwan. And of course they see that. It’s kind of a dichotomy. And here you have this little state like Hong Kong was prior to 2000, was doing really well. And then now Taiwan is kind of like Hong Kong in the sense of the word that it wasn’t part of communist China. In the case of Taiwan, it’s not. But we look at Hong Kong. Hong Kong is not doing as well as they did when they were separate, when they were their own little group, as a little country. So we need to be careful. But, again, if you’re more of a nationalistic person rooting for your team as you would, then you want capitalism.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. It’s amazing when you think about the difference between Hong Kong today and Hong Kong in 2000. So that’s one great example. Imagine being in Hong Kong growing up in a capitalistic society, which is separate from mainland China and then waking up one day and finding out that now you’re under a communist regime that has total control over you and everything else. Let’s wrap this up. I want the listeners to check out The Essential Leader and Tough Things First. Those are the books. They’re available everywhere. Visit toughthingsfirst.com for the podcasts, blogs and more. Follow along on social media as well. And listeners, what’s your take on capitalism versus socialism? Drop your comments in the comments there at toughthingsfirst.com and do the tough things first. Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.
This is part two of Ray Zinn’s conversation about balancing tech efficiencies with empathy to keep teams motivated and loyal. Plus, more on why you should embrace change.
Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo. I’m a former radio personality, writer, and entrepreneur in California. This is human-centered leadership in an automated age. This is part two of our discussion. It went on a little long, so we split it up into two. I’m glad to have you back, to listen AI and robotics advancing rapidly in 2026. Many leaders worry about replacing people instead of empowering them. And in our first podcast on this topic, we discussed how to deal with that. Ray, it’s nice to be back to discuss this again. Your company was consistently profitable for 37 years. You put people first, but I think what we’ve been learning in this podcast, part one and now part two, is the fundamental truth that change is the one constant, right?
Ray Zinn: I’m part owner of a small software company, what they call software as a service, SaaS. I was talking with the CEO of the company. He was saying that he’s able now to create his software with one engineer and AI versus 10 engineers before. So he’s reduced his headcount by 10 by using one engineer who is the program manager or developer along with AI. That book, again, Who Moved the Cheese, you got to know when the cheese is moved, you better find a new route. So as I said, I have two grandchildren that are currently looking for work. They just graduated this year and they’re frankly concerned because they got educated in an area which is now being taken over by AI. So in fact, my one granddaughter is a speech therapist, but you can do speech therapy now through AI. So she’s got to find another way now to get a job where AI may have taken over her function.
Rob Artigo: Well, maybe it’s coaching somebody through fewer sessions and using AI for practice.
Ray Zinn: Right. Exactly.
Rob Artigo: And what I found, Ray, we’ve done this here in this podcast. We have perfected it here. It takes fewer people to do… Because of technology, it takes fewer people to do what we do here in this podcast than it used to. I mean, you used to have a producer, a writer and all these different people doing things. We do it. The two of us do it. And that’s basically what it comes down to is it just takes fewer, I think, and tell me if I’m wrong, but basically what AI and technology have done by 2026 in the course of history is it just takes fewer people to do certain jobs. And then somebody has to do maintenance on milking the cows, which you mentioned. Somebody has to do that. So a person’s going to do that, but you don’t need all the people milking the cows and you don’t need the farm hands out there picking up the lettuce or picking grapes. So you just have some people instead of 20.
Ray Zinn: We have to be cognizant of that. I mean, AI will put a lot of people out of work or put a lot of people in the mode of having to find another way of making a living. That’s the way it’s always been. When I was a kid, I worked on a ranch and so I did a lot of ranch work, but then I went to school and I got a degree in engineering and master’s in business and I don’t do any more cattle or any more farming type work except here at the ranch. So things changed for me even as a kid. I used to deliver papers on a bicycle. Now everybody reads the paper online. So the guys that are out there delivering paper, the boys riding their bikes, delivering paper, I have to find another way to make a living. So we’re all going to be facing change.
Change is permanent. It’s going to be with us forever and we have to adapt like the book says Who Moved the Cheese. We got to find out where’s the next hole for the cheese. And so whether you’re a doctor or whether you’re a lawyer or whether you’re school teacher or whatever, you got to learn to adapt. The medical field’s changing dramatically too because of AI. The legal system’s changing dramatically. We need far less paralegals because the AI can read the paralegal information and come up with a report much faster than the paralegal can. So I think almost everyone to some degree is going to be affected by change, whether you’re a stage coach driver or Pony Express rider or whether you’re an engineer driving a train or you’re a pilot flying an airplane. I heard recently that the AFAA is looking at now being able to fly airplanes automatically and will need fewer pilots because AI or the technology is allowing airplanes to fly themselves.
I have an airplane that can almost land itself. So we put it on an autopilot with a program in it and it takes over all the flying. Now I have to operate the radio, but I think even that’s going to get changed. I think ultimately there will be no need to operate the radio because it’ll all be done automatically. We used to get our weather report and what we call the ADIS, the automatic transfer information service, used to get it through a real person. Now it’s all being done automatically by AI. All the weather’s coming in by AI now. We don’t need weather forecasters to the degree we did in the past because that’s all automated. I don’t know. Maybe we’re going to be doing podcast automated now. I think we could. I think we can do AI podcasts. Right, Rob?
Rob Artigo: Oh yeah, sure. I mean, you can get topics from the AI. You can have scripts written by AI. You can do tons of things. And me, when I do my work as a criminal defense investigator, I do use it if I get into a jam on certain paperwork. If I get backed into a corner, I’m not supposed to do much paralegal work because I’m not a paralegal, but sometimes I have to draft something and write it up and AI has helped me figure that out. But that’s where I want to go next is think about the fact that there are people out there who’ve spent their lives the last 20 years building a reputation and a source of information on websites and they pay for their websites. Maybe they do commerce there, they do other things, advice, they do cooking, they do other things. I mean, even exercise or health or fitness, they have those websites.
But if I use AI to search for something instead of going out on the internet in general, I’m not navigating to those websites.
Ray Zinn: Yes, that’s true.
Rob Artigo: AI is skimming that information and delivering it to me and saying, “Here’s the answer.”
Ray Zinn: Exactly.
Rob Artigo: So now the traffic I would imagine on those websites is going down because of the use of AI. AI, I use Elon Musk’s Grok. It will give an explanation of something and then it’ll give you a link to click on the source. So if you wanted to verify it or look at it further, you could do that. But typically you’re getting enough information just by the aggregation of the question you’ve asked and then that aggregation comes from all those websites. So there’s commerce that’s going to go down because of AI.
Ray Zinn: Well, I mean, Rob, this has been going on forever since Adam ate the apple. I mean, this is going on. I mean, this is nothing new and so it just seems like it’s happening faster because AI is making things change quicker. And so anytime we see a rapid change, we get concerned. We have to be aware of that. We have to understand the dynamics of the changing world and adapt. So adapting is the key and we could debate this for another two hours and we wouldn’t really cover anymore.
Rob Artigo: Right. But I guess the idea that you’re trying to convey to people is it’s here to stay. What you have to do is fear not and forge ahead, pivot if you have to and deal with it.
Ray Zinn: And don’t fret about change because if you’re fretting about change, you’re going to be fretting forever.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. And you’ll drive yourself crazy.
Ray Zinn: Right.
Rob Artigo: Listeners, pick up Ray’s books, The Essential Leader in Tough Things First, as well as the Zen of Zinn series. For more practical guidance on these fundamentals, visit toughthingsfirst.com for episodes, blogs, and links to Ray’s social media. So what are your thoughts on leading people in an AI driven world? Share your comments. Remember, do the tough things first.
Trust and Value in People. As AI and automation reshape roles, is investing in people—through servant leadership and culture—still the key to the ultimate competitive edge? In this two part Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn offers guidance on balancing tech efficiencies with recognition and development to keep teams motivated and loyal.
Rob Artigo: I just saw a story recently where a company was using AI, and I want to say that it’s related to Facebook, but they were using AI as a help mechanism online. So, if you went to the help desk, you would start by talking to the virtual assistant and the virtual assistant helped people navigate accessing their accounts. And the virtual assistant helped people hack accounts, because it wasn’t able to understand that the person is manipulating the AI. So, certainly right now, we still need human beings dealing with these things and having oversight over what AI or tech is doing.
You built Micrel Semiconductor into a consistently profitable company over 37 years by putting people first. Obviously, your technology that you’re producing at Micrel, was advancing, improving the world, creating opportunities, creating jobs, doing all these things because it was a technologically advanced product. It continued to advance what we were doing in business and in society. How do leaders stay human centered when technology is moving fast, even when you’re the one producing the technology that’s moving fast?
Ray Zinn: We look at this AI era as being the only time that we’ve had advancement and that’s just not true.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, true.
Ray Zinn: I remember, in Adam Smith’s book, Wealth of Nations, he talked about the division of labor and that’s exactly what we’re talking about today in this podcast. Pick up that book. Pick up Adam Smith, that was written back in the 1700s and it talks about division of labor, specialization as you would. The big concern back in Adam Smith’s time, which is back in the 1700s, had to do with the railroad. The railroad was expanding rapidly. I mean, I think many of our listeners will know or remember the day of Stagecoach and Pony Express and so forth. I mean, look at how we delivered mail and packages back in the early 1800s or even the 1700s. We did it by what we call Pony Express. The Pony Express rider would have these big satchels on the back of a saddle and he would carry as many packages as it would fit in those satchels in the back.
And then he would race like crazy. He would gallop for a few hours and then he’d go to a relay station and he’d hop off and jump on another horse and take off and do it again, or they’d change riders and, this relay, and that’s the way that we got mail from one point A to point B, was through these Pony Express riders. It’s almost like having a faster internet. With the railroad coming on board and laying track across the United States and moving mail and other packages with the train, putting Pony Express riders out of work.
Rob Artigo: And the telegraph.
Ray Zinn: And the telegraph put them out of work. Yeah, exactly. That’s another one. The telegraph also made it quicker because that was the internet back in the day of the Pony Express rider, taking him out of work. And so, they were the, Pony Express rider here the Amazons of those days, they moved lots of product. Brink’s was another one, a company that started up by moving products like Amazon does or like UPS or FedEx or whatever. It was not too long ago that the United States Postal Service only delivered mail. They didn’t deliver packages, but now they’re delivering packages like there’s no tomorrow. And that’s changed the way that the mail services are having to operate. So, we are always under change. If you were making stage coaches or buggy whips or you were raising horses for the Pony Express or for the stagecoaches, your business went down as they improved the mass carrying of packages and mail.
And same thing with the farmers. I mean, we used to plant all the crops by hand by putting seeds in the ground by physically pushing them into the ground. If you have a little garden in your backyard, that’s how you hand plant them. But these big farms now, it’s all automated, all automated. So, there’s a lot of farm workers were put out of business when we automated farming. Same thing with milking a cow. Nobody really commercially milks cows by hand. It’s all super automated. I mean, if you looked at the way we produce our produce now, it’s all completely automated. Whether you’re picking fruit or whether you’re picking strawberries, it’s all done by machines. So, if you were a handpicker, you were out of business, with one of those big machines came in and did it for you for the landowner.
So, we’re always going to be undergoing change. The personal computer changed our lives dramatically, where we used to be relying on these big mainframe computers. Now, we just do this all by hand. Back when I was a kid, Dick Tracy had this little smartwatch on his hand that had this little antenna that went up his arm and he had this smart communication device and we kind of laughed at it because we didn’t have anything like that. As a kid, we didn’t have that smartwatch or smart radio like Dick Tracy had. But now we have as much computing power on our wrists as we have on a mainframe back when I was a kid.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And then Maxwell Smart had a phone in his shoe.
Ray Zinn: That’s right. And now we don’t put our phone in our shoe, we put it in our pocket.
Rob Artigo: Or it’s like you said, it has an interface that where some watch, and mine doesn’t, I have a Garmin and so I can’t talk through my watch. But some of them, you can answer your phone through your watch and talk to people through your watch, so you don’t even need… Your phone can be on a nightstand 30 feet away or an end table or something, and you could be talking on your phone through your watch. So, there’s no question about it. There have been advances in technology. So, I wonder, when we do this, when we advance, many leaders feel like, Oh, I don’t want to fall behind, so I got to automate aggressively. So, how do you balance this efficiency with the human side of it, humanity?
Ray Zinn: Well, I got two grandchildren that are looking for work right now. They graduated from college and they’re really worried because AI has taken away some of the jobs that they were looking… These kids started like four or five years ago as a freshman and a little before AI, as you would. So, they just took regular courses for a regular job and by the time they graduated, they found out that, oh, the degree that I just got is now being substituted by AI.
Rob Artigo: Listeners, pick up Ray’s books, The Essential Leader and Tough Things First, as well as the Zen of Zinn series. For more practical guidance on these fundamentals, visit toughthingsfirst.com, for episodes, blogs, and links to Ray’s social media. So, what are your thoughts on leading people in an AI driven world? Share your comments. Remember, do the tough things first.
Is it true that you should trust but verify? In this Tough Things first podcast, Ray Zinn if you have to verify, there’s no trust involved. (Watch Video Podcast)
Ray Zinn: Hey, Rob. Good to be with you today.
Rob Artigo: Good to be back. Well, this is a special edition of The Tough Things First Podcast. It is a video podcast. If you want to watch the video, you can go to the website, toughthingsfirst.com, find this podcast, and then click on the link that takes you to Ray’s YouTube channel. And then click on that and you’ll be in the know, like so many others in Silicon Valley listening and watching this particular podcast.
Ray, recently you wrote about the phrase trust but verify. This is made famous by Ronald Reagan. It’s also a Russian proverb, but that’s where it comes from originally. But you say it’s a mistake to go by this saying because you describe it as blind trust. Tell me about that.
Ray Zinn: Well, it’s an oxymoron. If you trust somebody, you don’t have to verify. That’s the whole concept of trust. Trust is intrinsic in and of itself. That means you have confidence. You believe honestly that the person that you’re giving that trust to is going to fulfill their responsibility completely. Like a friend; a friend is one that you can trust, and that doesn’t say that you need to verify it. It just sounds to me like it was an oxymoron when I heard that phrase. I heard a lot on the news especially as it relates to Iran on the nuclear program that they’re doing, I kept hearing, “Okay, trust but verify.” If you have to verify something, that’s really not being trustworthy. If you are married to someone and you don’t feel you can trust them, then of course you’re going to be checking to verify if they’re in fact doing what they’re supposed to do as a spouse, or a friend.
I just thought it was kind of an oxymoron, and I looked up several versions of the definition of the word trust, and they all say the same thing, that you have confidence, they’re reliable, and they don’t need a validation or verification. So that’s what I thought was just kind of an interesting saying. You said it comes from a Russian saying or some other?
Rob Artigo: A proverb. Yeah, Russian proverb.
Ray Zinn: A proverb, right. Anyway, it just seemed to me to be an oxymoron. With my friends, I don’t have to verify. If you’re at work, if you have a time clock and you have to log in when you come into work, there’s no trust there. You’re just verifying. You’re validating vis-a-vis the time clock that you in fact logged in. In fact, companies that have these login devices to make sure that people are checking in at the appropriate time, they’re not trusting their employees, if you can understand what I’m saying.
Rob Artigo: Sure, sure. Trust is a invaluable asset in another person when you can trust them. But it’s fragile because it’s easy to mess that trust up, and then you have to get into verifying what they say. Let’s talk about the value of trust in a relationship, whether it’s a working relationship, a family relationship, or whatever. The value of that trust, you can’t put a price tag on real trust.
Ray Zinn: It’s paramount. It’s absolutely paramount. When you have a relationship that’s built on trust, like when I hop on an airplane, I trust that the pilot is going to do a good job. That means that all the appropriate boxes were checked as far as his certifications and so forth. Or if I go to a doctor and have some surgical process, procedure done, I have to trust that he’ll do it correctly.
So how do you verify it? Well, if you’re still alive after the anesthetic wears off, I guess you validated that that person knew what he was doing. If you don’t wake up, obviously then whether you’ve lost that trust or not won’t matter. We have to trust a lot of people. We trust people that we do business with. We trust people that we rely on to work physically, if they’re a doctor or if they’re an airline pilot or if they’re a lawyer or whatever, or a school teacher. It’s endemic. You have to trust. And to verify that the person did in fact perform as advertised, then it’s a little late. If you have to validate that someone did the job properly, it’s a little late, especially if you look at a doctor or an airline pilot or someone that has your life in his hands. That’s the ultimate trust.
And so in the case of Iran and this nuclear program that they have, trusting that they’re going to stop doing high-grade energy or high-grade nuclear power, it’s a little late because now they already have it and now you’re stuck with that issue. It just caught my eye, or caught my hearing I should say, as I was listening to that newscast and they said, “Okay, we’re going to trust that the Iranians are going to do it, but we’re going to verify.” If it’s someone you can’t trust, then obviously you’re going to have to verify or take some other action. So anyway, that’s how it came up with regard to Iran.
Rob Artigo: Do you think, in the case of Iran, that it’s more of a political statement? In other words, I’m saying trust but verify. I’m making an overture of trust, which doesn’t really exist because I am going to verify because I really don’t trust.
Ray Zinn: Exactly. That’s it. That’s the whole purpose of having someone there validating whether or not that they’re abiding by the agreement. There’s no trust there. You’re just going to check and make sure they’re doing what they’re going to be doing. I think it’s an oxymoron kind of a phrase, trust but verify. It doesn’t match the definition of the word trust.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, and I think we’ll wrap it up with this. If you’re working with somebody who believes you have all their trust, but you have somebody who’s checking on their work because you really don’t trust them. And I think an accountant can be; unfortunately, accountants are in a position to mess with your finances in a way that you don’t detect it for a very long time it can happen.
Ray Zinn: [inaudible 00:08:17].
Rob Artigo: I’m not saying accountants are bad, but you know what I’m saying, is that sometimes you need somebody to verify somebody’s work because you want to make sure that they’re doing right by you because you don’t really, you know.
Ray Zinn: Well, it’s like in an airplane. They have the pilot and they have the other co-pilot, and one backs up the other. But that’s not verifying. That’s just safety. It’s like putting on safety glasses; you’re protecting your eyes from being damaged by something. There are duplications, like airplanes having two engines instead of one or two propellers instead of one or whatever, or two batteries instead of one. There’s always backup, but that’s not verification. That’s just a safety of just having multiple ways to protect yourself. So that’s different than trust but verify.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, it’s just prudent to have some redundant systems-
Ray Zinn: Exactly.
Rob Artigo: … to protect yourself. Sometimes it’s just logical sense and then nobody’s offended by that because they know that that’s just the way it works.
Ray Zinn: On this program called American Greed, it’s a reality show or something. Anyway, not reality. It’s a re, what do we want to call it?
Rob Artigo: They do reenactments.
Ray Zinn: Right, reenactments. And what people do is when you invest in a particular company, you’re putting that trust that they’re going to do what they’re supposed to do. On American Greed, it’s all about people that you trusted that screwed you, that took your money and did you in, as you would. And that’s the problem as we were talking about with Iran and the nuclear program, is that we say, “Well, okay, you’re going to shut down your centrifuges, but we’re going to have somebody come by and check.” They can agree to shut down their centrifuges, but we’re going to verify if they did or not. That’s not trust though. That’s the whole purpose of this podcast. That’s not being trustworthy.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, the listeners can join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions, your comments are always welcome at Tough Things First. Also, follow Ray on X and Facebook and LinkedIn. And of course, pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First. And as you know, the Zen of Zinn Series 1, 2, and 3. And on sale now, The Essential Leader: 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make Up the Essential Leader. Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.
Is the push for American Made an open door to a would be entrepreneur? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn tells us how it could be done for those seeking the American Dream.
Ray Zinn: Hi Rob. How’s it going today?
Rob Artigo: Great. So with a nation, I feel like we’re in a mode of… There’s turmoil going on and there’s some uncertainty out there, but one of the interesting things is this drive to bring some manufacturing back to the US and I’ve been thinking about are there opportunities for would-be entrepreneurs out there to dive in and take a chance on some of these things? This would be like carving out a niche, making a product that is typically known to be made overseas and making them here instead. And I think you can do it on kind of a small scale. Also going based on the idea that people who are doing this might have limited time and limited resources to get going, but they may have come up with a brilliant idea and something they’d really like to do and maybe take charge of their own destiny in that respect. Here are some suggestions that I pulled together and it really references how to pull it off. I talked about limited resources, financial resources, and limited time.
Rob Artigo cont: The first suggestion here is to start lean, pick just a product and test it out. And this could be like kitchen tools or a card table, something that maybe you’re building something that you can sell locally. But I think the important thing is you got to budget and start lean.
Ray Zinn: Well, it’s interesting. In mid to late seventies when I was working in semiconductors in Silicon Valley, actually in the Bay Area, the government was trying to force companies out of the area because they were worried about the pollution and water contamination and other green-y type initiatives. And so the companies were moving out, they’re either moving to different states or they’re moving their companies out of the country. They’re off shoring it. I looked at that as a real opportunity, grow my company and my idea. And so I asked my friends, I said, what do you think about me starting a semiconductor company in Silicon Valley? And they go, oh, it’s crazy. Everybody’s leaving. Everybody’s moving out, everybody’s offshoring. I mean, why would you want to start a company where everybody’s leaving? The government is against you, they’re putting all these rules and regulations and trying to stop you from producing in the state.
I said, well, let me see what I can do to work with them. So I started finding out ways that I could minimize the concerns that they had. And I said, look, if we’re going to be employing all these people, and actually the government can cooperate with me, when they viewed me as not being threatening, that I was not acting like the victim. I was really trying to have a positive influence on the community. And they actually cooperated with me. I mean, I got a lot of concessions when I started producing semiconductor wafers and my products here in Silicon Valley. It’s really expensive and the labor costs were high and the material costs, the water and electricity, the utilities were high and the taxes were high, and it looked like there was no way I could succeed. But I found a niche. I found a way to work within the system, and it was quite successful.
In fact, I ran probably one of the most successful semiconductor companies that was ever formed. I didn’t lose any money except for one year because I worked within the system. I didn’t let the system defeat me. I used the system to benefit us. We touted the fact that we were US manufactured. That gave me some clout with companies that want to use US manufacturing. I used some older equipment that people had gotten rid of because they were having to move out of the Bay Area. So I was able to buy my equipment quite inexpensively.
I was able to actually produce a wafer fan that was about 1/20th the cost that I would normally have to spend because I just took advantage of people who were leaving and bought their equipment for 5 cents on the dollar. I just found a way to live within the system. So that’s what you need to do is find out how you can use this on-shoring capability in a way to take advantage of that, that will help you as we now move into a more of an on-shoring environment. Just look for niches. Look for ways that you can benefit from doing it here rather than over there, as they say.
Rob Artigo: And you did. One of the suggestions here is that you sourced cheap. You went around and you found bargains where you could. And I imagine that back when X manufacturing ceased in the US and went overseas, that the technology was different in terms of how to get it done. And there may be ways to do the same thing now, more cost effectively and competitively, just simply because technology has changed. Am I right?
Ray Zinn: Yeah. What I did was I found ways to market semiconductors that did not require expensive equipment, did not require me to have to offshore. I never offshored while I was running my crowd because I had the on-shore view. In other words, that was my focus. So I just said, okay, where can we benefit or how can we benefit from doing it locally as opposed to having it offshore? So I worked feverishly to maintain a local US-based company. When other people told me, you can’t do it, you’ll fail. The labor costs are too high, utilities are too high. For those of you who know Silicon Valley, you know that it’s very expensive. Everything’s expensive. Rent was expensive, utilities are expensive, labor costs are expensive.
And they just looked at it in a very negative way. And I looked at it in a positive way. I said, how can I benefit from these more expensive labor costs? Or how can I benefit from the higher rent and utilities and so forth? And so I looked at how do I benefit, not how do I lose. I took the positive aspect of it as opposed to the negative.
Rob Artigo: Wow, Ray, that’s just being on a mission to get it done and being very smart about it as you go through the process. And then of course you want to be able to, whatever it is that you end up making or building or… Your business has to be able to sell something fast so that you can scale quickly. And I imagine that you have to get out there and you have to scale quickly and you have to scale smart.
Ray Zinn: As I said about the utilities, how I benefited from the utilities is that I said, okay, how can I minimize the amount of water that I use? How can I minimize how much power I use? And so I looked at working within how expensive, because if things are cheap, you tend to exploit the cheapness of it by not finding ways to get around it. Whole concept of me using less water, less power, that may be competitive. How do I benefit from higher cost labor? I just found ways to minimize the amount of labor, human labor I had to use, and I was able to hire better people to perform those functions that I needed. And I were just more efficient. So I probably had one of the most efficient semiconductor companies in the world because I was induced or motivated to work around more expensive labor, more expensive utilities. So I want everybody to know that I was in Silicon Valley, my company was in Silicon Valley until I sold it in 2015. We’re in the most profitable semiconductor company in the world.
Rob Artigo: And it would seem that if you’re listening to this, that might be an onerous environment. Oh, we had to stress over every single nickel and dime, and that’s just not the way it was at Microl. People there were productive. They were happy to be there. And there wasn’t anything… It wasn’t like it was a slave driving or anything like that. We are talking about a company that was very successful and the people who worked there were happy and they worked within an environment where they could be cost-effective and productive at the same time. And that’s any CEO’s dream.
Ray Zinn: Exactly. So just want everybody to know that I ran a extremely profitable semiconductor company in Silicon Valley using Silicon Valley expensive labor, Silicon Valley expensive utilities. I lived within that. And that actually made us a better company when I learned to live with what I have, rather than saying, oh my gosh, the labor costs are going up, my utilities are going up, taxes are going up. I looked at make those a positive, and so I just learned how to minimize the impact of higher costs.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, the listeners can send messages to you by going to toughthingsfirst.com and accessing a message platform for you. And they can ask a question if they have it, a comment if they want to, and just put it out there and Ray will read it and he’ll get back to you if that’s what’s required. So Ray is on X. He’s also on Facebook and the LinkedIn and Ray’s books are out there. Tough Things First and the Zen of Zen series one, two, and three, the Essential Leader is on sale now. Your new book from Ray Zinn, 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make up the Essential Leader. Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks Rob.
Failure happens. But is it really a failure if you learn something valuable? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses how a few business failures paved the way to a massively successful semiconductor company.
Rob Artigo: Here with me is Ray Zinn, the longest-serving CEO in Silicon Valley history. Being invited back is always great, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hey, Rob, every day is a good day when I get to do a podcast with you.
Rob Artigo: Oh, I appreciate that. Of course, it’s fun and we have great conversations. So you ran a very successful semiconductor business for 37 years, Micrel, but before you did that, you had a couple of failed business ventures that had to be disappointing and emotionally taxing, but you used those experiences as motivation to find something bigger and better.
Ray Zinn: Absolutely.
Ray Zinn cont: You win by trying. You don’t win by not doing anything. I’m reminded of this fellow that was a marathoner, well, he was trying to be a marathoner. And he was running his race, his marathon, and his dad had recently passed away. And he was running the marathon, but he was having trouble maintaining his pace. And he would stumble and fall, and he was thinking, “Oh, I’m falling so far behind.” He was ready to give up. And then he’d hear his dad saying, “Hey, son, get up and start. Keep going.” He’d get up and start going again. And then again, he’d slow down. He would put his hands on his knees and then just say, “I’m done. I just can’t do it.” And then he’d hear his dad’s voice in his head saying, “Son, keep going. Don’t stop. Keep going.”
Anyway, when the race was over, he didn’t finish anywhere near the front. He finished at the back of the pack, but he finished. In other words, he didn’t just say, “I’m done. I can’t do it anymore.” And he kept going. And that’s what it is with any venture you start or attempt, don’t start it if you’re not going to finish it. And so in my case, I had three other businesses that I started before I started Micrel, but they led me to starting my company, Micrel, my more successful business. So they were stepping stones.
In other words, it’s kind of like you’re going from point A to point B, and you just draw out a path, and maybe it’s not perfectly straight. You maybe have some deviations, but you keep on the path, as you would. And that’s what I did is, even though I wasn’t successful in three of my businesses, it didn’t prevent me from being successful in my fourth. So as they say, if you at first don’t succeed, try, try again. And that’s what I did. I just kept trying.
But I looked back on my work history and the companies I started, and actually motivationally, I learned from each one. Each one that I started helped me. And when I finally got with my fourth one, which was Micrel semiconductor, it really got me to where I am. And so I don’t look at falling down as failure. I look at falling down as a learning process. Even though I was thinking at times, “Hey, I’m going to go get another job. I can’t be starting these companies and failing. It’s been costly to my family and costly to me personally, financially.” So I was ready to just throw in the towel, but I didn’t. I just said, “Let’s move on. Let’s move on.” And so that’s what I call this series of just moving on.
Rob Artigo: Looking around on the internet, I found some suggestions on how entrepreneurs who find themselves in this situation, how they should perhaps react to what’s going on, obviously using it as motivation. But let’s see if you agree with these. There’s three points here. But the first one is if you have a failed venture, not get disappointed, but you have to face the situation head on. Is that pretty accurate?
Ray Zinn: Yeah, that’s exactly right. You can’t face it on rear on. So that’s rear-facing, not front-facing.
Rob Artigo: Right. And then looking back, it should be a matter of drawing from it what you’ve learned from the experience, right?
Ray Zinn: Right. Don’t argue yourself into the ground by looking backwards. Face it on. Face it, which means looking forward.
Rob Artigo: And here’s one that I figure you might have an issue with because it’s not in your nature to get mad about something, but it says, “If you find yourself in this situation, let it make you angry.”
Ray Zinn: Well, that term of anger is what we call righteous anger as opposed to negative anger. So righteous anger is okay. In other words, if you’re saying, “Listen, I think I can do better than this,” and then you get upset with yourself, and you maybe give yourself a good tongue lashing, that’s righteous anger. Don’t be satisfied with mediocrity. Get angry with yourself about that. But don’t get angry with others. Get angry with yourself. That’s what that means.
Rob Artigo: The last one here is reframe it as a gap to close. So it says, “Every letdown shows you where you’re not yet good enough.” Maybe it’s skills, network, or whatever, but it shows you where you lack something. Is that true?
Ray Zinn: Well, I just talked about that before you started that list that you read off from the internet. I said I started three different businesses before I started Micrel, and each failed business led me to where I succeeded. Failure only becomes failure when you don’t learn from it. So I call it a learning process, not a failing process.
Rob Artigo: And also, I want to point out to the listeners that your new book, The Essential Leader, 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make Up the Essential Leader, the first chapter, it’s about try, try again. You mentioned that at the beginning of your comments here, but you modify that to say, “Try, try again, but …” And what you’re saying is make sure that you don’t fail next time the same way you failed this time.
Ray Zinn: Well, repeating the same mistake over and over and expecting a different result is stupidity. So don’t be stupid. Don’t make the same mistake over and over thinking you’re learning. You’re not. You have to learn from your mistakes.
Rob Artigo: Well, join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. If you have questions for Ray, you can ask him there, and he’ll get back to you. Your questions and comments, of course, are always welcome. You can follow Ray on social media, there’s X, Facebook and LinkedIn. And Ray’s books are out there. I just mentioned The Essential Leader. There’s also Tough Things First and the Zen of Zinn, series one, two, and three. Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.
Working from home may have seemed like progress over hustle culture, but has it brought on something worse? Un-Hustle culture. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn says one bad work ethic has led to a worse work ethic.
Rob Artigo: Let’s talk about hustle culture. One of the soundbites we use in the intro for this podcast is… It’s one of my favorites from you. You say, “If you think you have to work 80 hours a week to be successful, then you’re dead wrong.” So when I was looking for topics for the podcast session, I saw the words hustle culture on the internet, and I immediately thought of that quote. So hustle culture is the belief that you have to grind it out 24/7. And I imagine you’re not a fan of hustle culture.
Ray Zinn: No. Not at all.
Rob Artigo: Looking at hustle culture, I imagine that you’ve had a lot of experiences of seeing it. Some people would call it A type personalities. Some people say that, “I’ve enjoyed working at this company or this firm,” and other people say, “Look, I don’t like working at that one because the idea is that you’ve got to run like a Mad Man around and continue to work.” I hear about this, like Wall Street is… For young people, there’s this hustle culture where they’re basically working 24/7 and they’re working at 100 miles per hour because they’re trying to outdo everybody else. And I imagine there’s a huge amount of burnout that can go along with that kind of mindset.
Ray Zinn: Yeah. I’m not sure everybody suffers from this hustle culture, but certainly they’re getting involved in it. I had a guy who worked for me for four or five years. I didn’t see him get a lot done during the day. In other words, he was there… I mean, he’d come in at 7:00 and he wouldn’t leave until 7:00, so he was working 12 hours, but he didn’t get a lot done. And so I decided I was going to… He didn’t work directly for me. He actually worked for a couple of people below me. But I noticed that he had a lot of magazines on his desk, and so I would just swing by his office periodically just to see what he was doing. And I see him reading these magazines. When he went to lunch one day, I decided just to go in his office and look to see what magazine he was reading because he had a stack of about 10 or 12 magazines. And there were magazines on cars, on sports, on flying, on cooking. I mean, it was all different kinds of magazines that he was looking at.
Of course, this is kind of giving away my age because now they just look on the internet and do the same thing. But I asked him. I said, “Gary…” Because he didn’t know I’d looked at his stack of magazines. I said, “Gary, so what is it you’re doing with all these magazines? I mean, you’ve got a stack of them there.” He says, “Oh, I’m getting up-to-date on things that will help our company.” And I said, “Like what?” And he says, “Oh, just take different kind of marketing tools and techniques that are.” And I said, “Would you mind just showing me what magazines it is you’re looking at that are going to help the company?” He’s, “Oh. He said, “Don’t worry about it.” And he grabbed the whole stack of them and put them in his desk. And I said, “Why’d you do that?” He says, “Oh, you’re busy. You’re too busy for this sort of thing, so I don’t want to disrupt what you’re doing.” But he would just turn beet red.
He was so embarrassed over it, I’m sure, because he didn’t want me to know what books he was reading or magazines he’s reading. And we have the same darn thing that’s happening with the internet and people looking at stuff that has nothing to do with their job, but they’re spending time, in other words, they’re just wasting time, just because they want people to know they’re working 24/7 when they’re really not, so… Or is the other one, you just say the class A personality where they’re always kissing up to the boss and they’re trying to show that they’re really producing for the company and it’s that hustle thing. So I don’t see much hustling anymore because people work from home and I know darn well they’re not working 24/7 from home. So-
Rob Artigo: Yeah. And you got to imagine that the internet and X and other distractions are there and there’s nobody to see that the person is not being productive. So if you got away with it at work when you were in the office before, imagine how much less productive people are because of those distractions. I mean, that magazine story is perfect for this because one of the things is that if you are working 24/7 or you’re trying to put that out there, some studies show productivity actually tanks after 50 to 55 hours each week anyway. If you get to the point where you’re burned out, you’re going to look for distractions. So he’s there all the time. So he gets like, “Oh, I got to fill the time with something else that’ll take my mind off of how much I’m thinking about these other things,” and your productivity goes down.
Ray Zinn: Well, I know… Another example of one of my employees is that he would take a two-hour walk. In other words, he would… About 11:30, he’d take off and then I wouldn’t see him again until 1:30 and his car was still there. So I asked him one day. I said, “So where are you between 11:30 and 1:30?” He said, “Well, I take this walk.” And I said, “So why?” “Oh, I get out in the fresh air and I get to do some exercising.” And he said, “I’m still working. Oh, I’m working. Don’t think I’m not working.” And I said, “Well, I didn’t say that. I just wondering what you’re doing.” And he said, “Well, I’m exercising my brain. I’m exercising my legs and my body and the company really benefits from what I’m doing.” But he was literally… Every day he was gone for two hours and he says he was walking. Maybe he was. But that’s another way we’re wasting time.
We’re thinking we’re putting in 80 hours a week when we’re only putting in maybe 10. Don’t think you’re productive or you’re busting your butt for your company just because you’re working from 7:00 to 7:00,” as they would. And I think because of COVID and a lot of people are working from home, they’re not working even 20 hours a week. So this hustle thing is just really diminished since people have worked from home doing these… We call them these bubble bath Zooms where they’re in the bathtub doing a Zoom call at the same time. So they call it the bubble bath Zoom, so… Anyway.
Rob Artigo: I hadn’t heard that. Hadn’t heard that term. Well, our listeners can join us and the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. If you have questions for Ray, you can just ask them there. He’ll get back to you. Your questions and comments are always welcome. Follow Ray Zinn on X and Facebook and LinkedIn, and pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First and the Zen of Zinn series, One, Two and Three and on sale now, The Essential Leader, Ray’s new book, 10 Skills, Attributes and Fundamentals that Make Up the Essential Leader. Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.
The victim mentality is a psychological pattern where someone perceives themselves as a victim of circumstances, other people, or systems, often avoiding personal responsibility. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explains in detail why most people have victim mentality and how to escape the pattern.
Ray Zinn: Hi Rob. Good to be with you today.
Rob Artigo: Page 89 is what I’m focused on in Zen of Zinn 2, the book you wrote, and it’s about the victim mentality, and you talk about it by sharing a list that you created and you called it the victim mentality list, appropriately named. So I thought we would go through some of these items here on this list of the victim mentality and just talk about why they are associated with the victim mentality. The first one is blame. When it comes to the victim mentality apparently blame tops your list. Tell me about it.
Ray Zinn: Well, what’s interesting, Rob, is that the victim mentality, if I were to ask you, “Rob, do you have a victim mentality?” You would probably say what?
Rob Artigo: I would say, “No.”
Ray Zinn: See. I’ve never talked to anybody, not one single person when I’ve discussed the subject of victim mentality, none of them say, “Oh no, I don’t have a victim mentality. No, not me.” And so it’s ironic and we made up this list. So let’s see. When we finish this podcast, you can rate yourself as to whether or not you have a victim mentality.
Rob Artigo: Okay, okay.
Ray Zinn: A victim mentality, as I started out, number one is blame. If you blame someone else for a problem you have or had, then that’s one characteristic of a victim mentality. Have you ever blamed anyone for something that impacted you? Have you, Rob? When you’ve had a problem, have you ever blamed someone?
Rob Artigo: I’m sure I have. At one point or another I have definitely done that. Number two on the list is rationalize and self-justify.
Ray Zinn: Have you ever rationalized something saying, “Well, I’m not perfect. Yeah, I’m not a skilled mechanic, or I’m not a carpenter, so that’s why this project didn’t turn out so well.” Or, “The wood was warped or something else was wrong. The machine broke, my 3D printer made a mess of my project.” So that’s when we start rationalizing, it’s something like blame. We start rationalizing why something didn’t turn out. Again, we’re back to blame again, something else and that, well, the economy, that’s another one. We could say, “Well, the economy, I lost my job. It’s not me, it’s somebody else, something, a piece of equipment broke down or whatever.” And that’s how we rationalize our failure in a particular project.
Rob Artigo: And the next one is complain.
Ray Zinn: Right. Have you ever complained about the weather? Have you ever complained about your spouse or have you ever complained about your neighbors? Ever complained about somebody who cut you off when you were driving where you said, “Hey, dummy, use your signal,” have you ever done that?
Rob Artigo: I hate to admit it, but on the driving part, yes, I mumble under my breath how dumb they are?
Ray Zinn: Well, again, see, so we’re complaining. And so if you say, “Oh, man, what a crummy day today is,” or, “Gosh, that guy just pulled in front of me or he cut me off, or he got in front of me in line.” I was shopping the other day with my wife and there’s about four or five lines that we could go into, and of course my wife’s looking for the shortest line to get to the cashier. And she said, “Come hurry over here. This is line’s less people.” And as I started to move over there, this other person who was right next to me took off. It was a woman actually with a cart full of stuff, and she just went right in front of me, actually hit my cart, knocked me sideways a little bit, and boy, I didn’t think very kindly of that. I said, “Oh.” I didn’t say anything to her, but I was not thinking a happy thought.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, well, you’re one to make sure that you pause and bite your tongue a little bit when you feel like saying something and you don’t, that moves into make excuses as well, I think it falls in line with that. And then the next one is finding fault and getting angry.
Ray Zinn: Well, these are all kind of tied together. Have you ever been angry, Rob?
Rob Artigo: Sure.
Ray Zinn: Okay. So that’s another victim. In other words, when you are trying to blame someone else for the difficulty or the kerfuffle that you’re in, that’s a clear sign that you’re playing the part of a victim. You just have to know that victims come from different ways and you keep thinking, “Well, I don’t think that’s a victim if I get angry and upset.” I see that now with what’s happening with Tesla because of Elon Musk, they’re getting angry, they’re burning his dealerships or destroying cars, writing graffiti on the cars. That’s a way of saying I’m a victim. In fact, we’ve heard some of the news media excuse the people who are doing damage to these Tesla dealerships and cars because they’re angry and upset, “You’re impacting me. I don’t like you anymore.” And you’re playing a part of a victim when you do that, when you get angry and upset.
All of us at some time or another probably have a victim mentality. But again, if I ask you, “Do you play the part of a victim?” You say no because you hate the thought of being called a victim. I’ve heard lots of interviews on TV and radio, people saying, “Oh, you act like a victim.”
“Oh, no, no, not me. I’m not a victim.” And they get all irate. So none of us want to be considered a victim, but if we blame others, we look for excuses, we try to rationalize it, are angry and upset, then we are a victim.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, the list goes on here. It talks about minimizing and trivializing things, making demands, covering things up. How about doubt and lose hope?
Ray Zinn: Right. If you don’t think the future is good enough for you, if you don’t think that the government’s treating you right, if you don’t think that you’re going to have a better life or things are going to get better for you, you’re losing hope, you have doubt, and that’s another sign of a victim. “It ain’t me. I can’t be a victim because somebody else is doing it to me.”
Rob Artigo: Yeah, and it sounds like this other one here, having self-pity and being the victim, which is kind of obvious and then abandon, indecision, denying and lying, procrastinating and rebelling. How about rebelling?
Ray Zinn: Well, again, as that destroying those Tesla dealerships, that’s rebellion. And so fighting back, getting angry and upset, throwing a tantrum and doing things which are deleterious too is playing the part of the victim. I have a right to get mad, in other words.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, you finish this off by saying, “We have a choice. Give up our agency, be a victim, or take control of our life and accept responsibility for our actions.”
Ray Zinn: Just be happy. If you’re happy, you’re not going to be a victim. So be grateful, happy, serve others. Do what you can to make this a better place and you will not be a victim. So if you want to avoid the victim mentality, avoid all that list of things that I discussed in that musing and you will be a happier and you won’t be a victim.
Rob Artigo: Of course, our listeners can join us at toughthingsfirst.com if they have any questions or comments, you can just leave a message there for Ray. He’ll answer the questions, he’ll help you out if you are confused about something. Please go to toughthingsfirst.com and try that out. Follow Ray on X and Facebook and LinkedIn and pick up the books, Tough Things First and, of course, the Zen of Zinn series one, two, and three and on sale now The Essential Leader: 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make Up the Essential Leader Thank you, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.
We all know change is inevitable, but layoffs can be devastating when you find your once secure job has vanished. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn says don’t panic, just be prepared.
Rob Artigo: Here with me again is Ray Zinn, the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley history. Hi Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hello Rob.
Rob Artigo: You are always thinking and reflecting on the world around you, and that’s really great for your writing. You recently wrote this and it goes, “Our current economy is in a state of flux. Layoffs are inevitable. Layoffs, they’re terrible and they’re disruptive. Lives are impacted. What’s the resolution,” you say, “to minimize the impact of layoffs? First, don’t panic. You’ll recover. It is just a matter of time before you will have this behind you. Second and most important is to always have yourself prepared for layoffs. You’re basically living within your means. Avoid unnecessary debt. Always looking for other opportunities as a backup plan, and keep your name out there. Bottom line, always assume things are never permanent. Change is always out there and being prepared for change is the best approach.” Very good writing there, Ray.
Rob Artigo Cont:It’s important now, because let’s face it, there are people who are losing their federal government jobs as a matter of course. There are people in other areas where there are adjustments going on. Even in California, fast food restaurants with the minimum wage going to $20 an hour, a lot of places have moved to a kiosk instead of a person working a register at the counter to save money on that, so those people end up losing their jobs as well. Across the spectrum and for a variety of reasons, not just what we’re experiencing here in America right now, but there are people who are going to lose their jobs. You’re saying, look, just don’t panic.
Ray Zinn: Yeah. Again, these times, well, these are not just new because they’ve been happening for centuries, where changes been taking place. I can remember, not I can even remember, I recall I should say, in Adam Smith’s book Wealth of Nations, when the locomotive came on board and started taking over the wagon trains and Pony Express and other things, they were panicking then because, oh, this is going to ruin my occupation. Stage coach builder, stage coach, driver, horse breeder and trainer and so forth, and the Pony Express. I’m going to lose my job now because the mail is going to be delivered by the trains and then the wagon trains are going to cease to exist because the railroad is going to bring people from east coast to west coast. This is not new. This is just a technology-advancing development.
When we think of change, it’s always with us and has been with us for thousands of years, and we’d have to adapt. I know people are worried about AI and the impact that AI will have with robots and other automation, people are going to get displaced. As I wrote in my musing that you just read, you have to be prepared for change. Change is with us and it’s not going to stop unless you stop advancing capability and technology. With the government, DOGE as they call it, shrinking the size of government, there are going to be a lot of people losing their jobs and unemployment is with us. I mean, this is just the nature of an economy is unemployment.
Always live within in your means. Absolutely, don’t take on any more debt than you have to. Always assume that a recession is right around the corner. Always assume that you could lose your job at any time. I know I have a lot of friends that work for the government, I mean a lot of friends, and they’re panicked because they’re thinking, “Well, I thought I had a cushy job,” and that’s a problem. Whenever you think you have a cushy job, you don’t. Just bear that in mind. Cushy jobs are just a figment of your imagination.
You may have a job that, for example, working from home. I know a lot of people are worried about having to have to go back to work. I predict by the way, that by the end of 2026, all A-L-L, all companies will require the employees to come back to work. That cushy bubble bath Zoom thing you’ve been doing is going to go away and you’re going to have to drive back to work. Are there some negatives associated with driving to work? Yeah, you get more traffic on the freeways and you are going to lose half an hour to two hours traveling to and from work. Yes, you can’t go out and water your garden and be on the Zoom calls at the same time. Yeah, things are going to change. You’re going to have to go back to work. Better get used to it because it will happen, I predict by the end of 2026, which is just a little over a year away, maybe year and a half away.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, yeah.
Ray Zinn: Just bear in mind change is with us. Live within your means. Always be out there looking for a new job. Stay up to date on what’s happening with technology. Could technology influence your job? Sure. I mean, these cars now that are self-driving, that’s going to impact people who are currently driving like Uber and Lyft and companies like that, that have people driving their clients and customers to and from where they need to go. That’s going to change because these self-driving vehicles don’t require a driver. There’s going to be a point I predict within the next five years where, if you’re an Uber driver or a Lyft driver, you could be out of a job.
Same thing with trucking. Trucking will be done self-driving as you would. If you’re a trucker, bear in mind that, that could impact you also. Anyway, the bottom line is be prepared for change because it is there. It’s always going to be with you. You’re going to have to deal with it. Like it or not, change is here. Technology advances that. Remember I talked about the invention of the locomotive, the trains. That impacted a lot of people. A lot of jobs were impacted by the development of locomotion, and that happened back in the late-1700s. You’re going to be influenced by change the rest of your life.
Rob Artigo: I spent years in radio and I remember once applying for a job at one point and they had asked me if I’d ever been fired. The answer is, yeah, a couple times in radio. Well at least, if memory serves one time for sure. But I explained to this person, they were very concerned, “Why did you get fired?” I said, “When you get fired in radio, it’s not the same thing as getting fired in other jobs, nine times out of 10.” I suppose some people get fired for being incompetent or doing something, breaking down on the job in some way, shape, or form. But, because shows change and things change and they might want to have a different personality, a different person in that role, then they’ve got to move you out. You just lose your job. I always lived my life in radio with the mindset that I could lose my job at any time. I never felt comfortable in the job, so I take to heart what you’re saying because it makes perfect sense to me just about being prepared and keeping your name out there. I want to underscore that.
Well, for the listeners, they can join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Ray invites you to ask him questions. You can go to toughthingsfirst.com and leave a message there. He answers questions so you’d be surprised how often he gets back to people. Your questions and comments are certainly always welcome. Follow Ray on X and also Facebook and LinkedIn, and of course Ray’s books are out there, Tough Things First, The Zen of Zinn series as well, one, two, and three. On sale now, The Essential Leader: 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals that Make Up the Essential Leader. Thanks Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.
What you need to know now. In this Tough Things First podcast Ray Zinn demystifies the troubled waters so we can all get it and look forward. Call it Part 1.
Rob Artigo: Good to be back, Ray. Nice to see you. Thriving amid uncertainty and handling adversity. That’s what we’re talking about here in this podcast. 2025 has been a wild ride so far, and I’m not really overstating that, am I?
Ray Zinn: What’s interesting is last week I met with the Montana Secretary of State and her team. I gave this talk on leadership. It went fine except they wanted to ask some questions about uncertainty in the world and especially in the US economy. So, I thought that was interesting and appropriate, why we should cover that and discuss it today because foremost in everybody’s mind is what impact, inflation? Is there a recession pending? What about interest rates? What about tariffs, and what’s going on with the stock market? So let’s talk about them kind of individually, just as I listed the topics that I covered.
So, if we look at inflation, what’s happening with inflation? Well, you’re probably getting this on the news, but inflation looks like it’s abating. In other words, it came down some last month. Will it continue to come down? There’s a big speculation regarding the effect of tariffs, so let’s talk about tariffs before we jump into a recession.
Tariffs are meant to level the playing field between countries and especially those that sell to the US, so that’s been bandied around and beat up quite a bit over the last week or two. Tariffs are meant to, at least the way that the Trump administration looks at it, it’s meant to bring the other countries to the table and negotiate with them a better term so that we can sell to them. It’ll have a big impact on Ag culture. The Ag culture is the one that’s going to benefit the most from these tariffs released.
Now, the other countries which are selling cars, refrigerators, dishwashers, consumer electronics and so forth to us because the labor is cheaper in those countries is the big debate. That’s where everybody is having a proverbial fit over it. Depending on how fast we can bring automation back to the US or automation in the sense of the word of reducing the labor costs, that will help that issue regarding the products that we offshored to reduce the cost of the product and the labor to produce it. So if we get more automation, AI and so forth, that really helps us, and we’re able to produce in this country at the same when we offshored it, then there won’t be any impact on the product that’s coming into the country.
If we have multiple countries that produce the same product, then there’s some competition, and that could impact or at least minimize the effect of the prices on the product coming in because of the competition between countries. So, this all depends upon what kind of products that are going to be onshore versus offshored and just how fast we can go to full-blown automation or AI, as some people refer to it.
The biggest impact on this is going to be on consumer electronics, clothing and that sort of thing. I think Trump has now backed off on tariffs on consumer electronics, so that’s kind of been settled. Clothing? Again, that’s all a function of automation and what countries will compete with each other. There’s a lot of countries that are producing clothing, so that won’t have as big an impact if they’ll compete with each other. I’m not sure how big of an impact that’s going to be on pricing for clothing because I’m not sure. I don’t believe we’re going to produce much clothing here in the US. We’ve kind of lost that skill, that art as you would, and those other countries have picked up that capability, and there’s a lot of labor involved in making clothing.
What impact will that have on our economy as far as interest rates and so forth, and are we looking at a recession? So the Fed, federal banking, looks at things like inflation and whether or not the economy is growing or recessing. Of course, to get the interest rates down, you have to lower spending. In other words, you’ve got to drop demand. So when you drop demand, then of course the GDP will minimize, which you’re going to have less GDP growth, which brings me to really talking about the business cycle.
So in Q1, quarter one, which is January through March, that’s our weakest quarter. In fact, it’s coming off of Christmas, and Q1 is a very weak quarter. So, we’ll start seeing the numbers on how Q1 went in another month or so. Not in a month. Let’s say another few weeks, actually, as these companies start reporting their results.
Q2 is typically a more upbeat quarter. In other words, you’re coming off of the down Q1, and Q2 which is then April through June should be a better quarter. So, all eyes are on how bad was Q1 and how good does Q2 look? We won’t learn about Q2 until probably August. Well, early August, late July. So, you can see kind of the timing. We’re in a no man’s land because we’re coming off a weak quarter, so we don’t expect great results. If we get decent results off of Q1, that’ll help the stock market.
So then Q3, which is July through September, is our strongest quarter. In other words, that’s the best quarter of the year. Again, we don’t get results on Q3 until more like late October, first part of November. Then Q4, which is October through December, is a slower period. Let me back up a minute, going back to Q3, so Q3 is building up for Christmas. Christmas is our strongest season and even worldwide. That’s why Q3 is generally a stronger quarter, and Q4 is more of a flattish quarter. We don’t expect hardly any growth because you’re coming off of Christmas or you’re in Christmas as you would. I’m not sure that you’re going to get a big bump in Q4. Then back to Q1, which is a bad quarter or a weak quarter.
So, we’re all looking at the numbers, looking at how the companies report, and that will definitely impact the stock market. Is there going to be a recession? In order for interest rates to come down, GDP has to slow. Okay. When GDP slows, depending upon what political bent you are, you’re going to scream your head off. If the GDP comes down and it’s looking like we’re getting into a recessionary period, and the other side is saying, “Well, look. We’re naturally transitioning from a no tariff to tariff, so that’s having some impact.” What impact will that have on inflation depends again how the government negotiates these tariffs.
So, are tariffs good? They can be. Are tariffs bad? They can be. So, it just depends upon how well you manage that. We really didn’t have an income tax in this country. We used tariffs to raise our government spending, and therefore there was no need of income tax until we backed off of the tariffs. Then we had to go to an income tax in order to cover the government spending.
I know it’s a lot of information that we’ve beat around, but you can see that it’s kind of a wait and see. We haven’t had big tariffs for many, many years. Probably 40, 50 years since we’ve had any kind of a tariff situation or a tariff issue. We’re marching at a new territory.
When will interest rates come down? They’re going to come down when the Fed decides that the economy is in trouble. We need to lower interest rates in order to encourage spending, so you can see it’s kind of a what if type thing, depending upon what the economy does that will decide whether or not interest rates are going to come down.
Are we going to have a recession? Well, depending upon what kind of recession we’re talking about. Are we talking about just a reduction or slowing in GDP? Do you call that a recession? Well, if you’re more liberal, you’re going to call that a recession. If you’re more conservative, you’re going to say, “No, that’s just a natural slowing. That happens on normal business cycles, which occurs every three to five years.” So, everybody is going to be painting the picture that they want to make everybody understand what they believe is what’s going on in the economy.
I don’t think the recession is going to be terrible. There is going to be a slowdown, if you want to call it a recession. That’s what recess means. Recess means to slow down. Are we going to go into a depression? I don’t think that’s the case because we’ve got too many levers we can pull to prevent a depression. So anyway, that’s a short tutorial on the state of the economy, Rob.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, you covered a lot of territory there. Very interesting stuff. It’s a time in our history really where that stuff, it’s important today, and it’s going to be important for the rest of the year as things fluctuate. We don’t know what other countries are going to do. We don’t know how the tariffs will change things with some countries and how it will change things with us in some areas. It would be interesting to listen to what your take is throughout this year. We’ll try to do this more often. So, join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions and your comments are always welcome.
Ray Zinn: Hit me with an email on toughthingsfirst.com. I’ll be happy to answer them if you have further questions. If you would like to see more detail on this subject, please feel free to let us know. We’re happy to revisit this discussion. In fact, we’ll do it every quarter. So, if you chime in every quarter, we’re going to give an update on the economy.
Rob Artigo: Follow Ray Zinn on his X, Facebook and LinkedIn, and of course, Ray’s books. You’ve got to pick them up. Tough Things First is the big one, his first book. As you know, there is the Zen of Zinn Series 1, 2, and 3. On sale now, The Essential Leader: 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make Up The Essential Leader. Thanks a lot, Ray.
Ray Zinn: You’re welcome, Rob.
Rob Artigo: Now announcing, The Essential Leader by Ray Zinn. 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make Up The Essential Leader. Watch for it as it arrives at your favorite retailers in paperback and digital format. It’ll be everywhere by the official launch date, March 12th. That’s The Essential Leader by Ray Zinn. Don’t miss it. Thank you for listening to the Tough Things First podcast.
Do we live in a culture that promotes comparisons to others? Is it jealously, envy? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn says keeping up with trends may be healthy, but keeping up with the Jones’s may be a problem.
Rob Artigo: I recently read a quote where the writer said he had not met a person on the planet who did not compare themselves to others. He pointed out that we live in a society that perpetuates comparison at every turn, from social media and magazines to commercial ads and perhaps even the car sitting in the driveway at the neighbor’s house. It’s almost impossible not to find a potential trigger of comparison right in front of your eyes. That was authored. Davin Salvagno wrote at length about it.
So first, do you agree that we live in a society that perpetuates comparison at a return?
Ray Zinn: Yes and no. We look at hairstyles, we look at clothing styles, we look at car styles, whatever. We do kind of follow along with the trend, and so that’s a comparison, as you would, because we’re looking at how others are dressing, how others are doing their homes. I remember we used to, when I was early, young, married, we had a shag carpet and no one has a shag carpet today or-
Rob Artigo: Yeah, that’s true. I remember those.
Ray Zinn: Yeah, or the kind of furniture that we have, we try to stay up-to-date with what’s trendy, as you would.
Rob Artigo: That’s Keeping Up with the Joneses’ scenario.
Ray Zinn: That’s the other part of the topic. Okay?
Rob Artigo: Okay.
Ray Zinn: So, we’re talking about now how we do a comparison other than Keeping Up with the Joneses. So it’s not necessarily Keeping Up with the Joneses in the sense of the word that we’re going to talk about next, let’s just talk about comparing ourselves with the trends. In other words-
Rob Artigo: Gotcha.
Ray Zinn: … we want to make sure we’re not wearing the wide tie if the narrow ties are in or we make sure we’re not doing a pompadour hairdo if more of the short hair or whatever kind of haircut. The big style right now is beards on men. I’ve never had a beard, and so when I do the comparison, I compare myself to myself, this is who I am. I don’t wear a beard, and so I am not a beard-type guy. I’m not mocking at people who do have beards, I’m just saying that’s not my thing, but that’s a comparison again. I’m not comparing me against them. I’m comparing myself against myself. That was my goal. My desire is to not have facial hair, and that gets us into the second part of our topic is how we compare ourselves against the Joneses.
So if you’re trying to keep up with the Joneses, that’s a different part. That requires a different view. That’s called envy, E-N-V-Y. Envy that’s the part of it, and that’s the negative part of comparison. If we’re comparing ourselves against the Joneses, then we’re being envious because now we’re just trying to up one, be better than somebody else, the bigger car, the bigger house, the whatever, the fancier this, the fancier, oh, I got this, I got an airplane. You just drive around a little Volkswagen or whatever. Those are the bad kinds of comparisons where we are comparing ourselves against the Joneses. I’m opposed to that. I like to stay up-to-date, but I’m not comparing myself against the Joneses. I’m just looking at the trends and trying to stay within the trends.
Now, some of them I like, some of them I don’t like, so I’m not a, what you would say is I’m not necessarily a full-blown trendy. I don’t go along with everything, all the trends that are. I do the ones that I want to go along with. Again, I’m comparing myself to myself. What do I want? What’s my goal? What do I like to be like or look like? So again, the comparison should not be against the Joneses. The comparison should be against who you are and who you want to be. That’s the main goal.
Rob Artigo: The style thing is a perfect example, but also if you are one of those people who compares themselves to others’ levels of success, you can say, “Look, that’s what I would like to achieve,” that’s a good kind of comparison in the area that you were talking about versus, “I envy that person because they’re doing it, but yet I’m not doing anything to achieve that level of success.” Right?
Ray Zinn: Yeah. If you’re out there trying to impress people and how great and how wonderful you are, how beautiful or handsome or whatever, that’s doing it for the wrong reason. The right reason is comparing yourself to what you want to be, not comparing yourself to others and trying to beat your chest and say how wonderful or great you are, “Oh, I went to Harvard,” or “I went to Stanford,” maybe you went to San Jose State, like I did. I don’t look down on that. I looked at it as great, but I know others, “Yeah, where’d you get your degree?” “Oh, I went to Harvard. I went to Stanford, or I went to Berkeley,” or whatever. That’s the wrong kind of approach. Again, you have to look at where you want to be compared to where you’re going and what you want to accomplish.
Rob Artigo: You look at the titles on what people put on their walls behind their desks and that’s one thing that’s establishing your credit, if you will, your credibility and also displaying something that you’re proud of, but it’s a different thing to, in conversation, put somebody else’s degree down because it wasn’t an Ivy League degree or something like that. Just ends up being, it reflects poorly on you.
Ray Zinn: Yeah. I think that’s the key is that if you’re hanging your shingle up just to impress others, then you’re doing it for the wrong reason. You were trying to impress yourself, not impressing others. Compare yourself to yourself, here I am, here’s where I want to be, and here’s where I’m going, as opposed to, “Oh, so-and-so is accomplishing this, so-and-so is accomplishing that. Look at this leader or that leader and what they managed to have accomplished” whether you’re the richest man in the world like Elon Musk or whether you’re the President of the United States like Donald Trump, don’t do that comparison. Look at where you are and where you’re going. Maybe you’re just a hairdresser or maybe you work as a clerk in a grocery store. If that’s where you want to be, if that’s where you’re headed, then great, but don’t compare yourself to Donald Trump or to Elon Musk. Try to be who you want to be, not be who you thought somebody else is.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. Toughthingsfirst.com, that’s where the listeners need to go if they want to continue the conversation. Comments and questions are welcome there. Follow Ray on X and Facebook and LinkedIn, and of course, pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First, and as you’ve been told, the Zen of Zinn series is also available, and that’s one, two and three on sale now, The Essential Leader by Ray Zinn: 10 Skills, Attributes and fundamentals That Make Up the Essential Leader.
Thank you, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.
You may have heard that a failure to plan is nothing more than a plan to fail. Ray Zinn puts his hard earned life experience out there and proves what you get if you fail to plan is a pipe-dream and surefire disappointment.
Rob Artigo: Good to be back. You have a series of books. You have Zen of Zinn one, two and three, and I picked up Zen of Zinn one and went to page 110, and I found this particular writing, which I thought was interesting. It was thought-provoking and I thought made a worthy podcast. You wrote, “The difference between a goal and a plan is that a goal is what we want to accomplish, and a plan is the way we accomplish the goal. Many of us have goals, but no plan to accomplish their goals. A goal without a plan is just wishful thinking.” And also you’ve said, and you wrote in your book, The Essential Leader, “That a goal without a plan is not a plan.”
Ray Zinn: They call it a pipe dream, Rob.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. Where does this come from? I mean, we’re in business and various leadership roles and throughout our lives we had to do different things, but the goal changes at times. The way to achieve the goal doesn’t change, right?
Ray Zinn: That’s interesting. Let’s just go back to when I started my company. So my goal was to run my own company. That was my goal. I mean, I wanted to start a company to see if I could make it successful, and so that was my goal. But then I said, “Okay, so now what kind of company do I want to found, do I want to start?” And so I tried about three or four different things to start my company. So my plan was then to get it started and to come up with a product. So I did that. That one didn’t work out. So then I scrapped that one and I went to another one and that one didn’t work out. And I said, “Scrap that one.” As I said, I tried four different approaches before I got one that really was successful. You would say, “Well, wow, your goal was to start a company and you did that, but your plan evidently wasn’t all that successful because you had to do four different companies before you got one that worked.”
Well, that’s the way sometimes things work. If I married the first girl I dated, I’d be a polygamist today. So we do things by trying. If you just have a goal without an effort to try to do something that becomes, like I said, a pipe dream. In other words, you’re just wishful thinking. Even though it may not be successful, you want to move forward, you want to set forth an effort that will result in you either learning that that’s not a good one or that is a good one, and so that you can build on it.
When I started those four companies, I thought each one of them was going to be a success. Just like when I said dating again, I thought my first date, that’s the girl I’m going to marry kind of thing. But I’ve dated hundreds of girls, and so you find out that not necessarily the first girl you date is the one you’re going to marry. And so it’s the same thing with starting a company. You might find out that the first company you start is not necessarily the one you’re going to marry. I kept trying and trying and trying, and then I finally ended up with one that I could bring forth success.
Rob Artigo: Well, yeah, you’re talking about in business, in jobs, in life, so in managing your life, goals are everything. And then having a plan, and you had a plan going into, as you were getting older, aging into your late teens and you’re thinking about dating, you’re planning on your future. You had an idea of what you were going to do. You were going to date and find your way, but you were not going to settle for anything but what you really, really wanted. And so your goal was established with your plan, which was to make sure that you didn’t make a mistake and marry the first person that you met.
Ray Zinn: Well, I’ve been married for 64 years and so that took some effort to bring it together, but I finally found the right combination and that turned out to be successful. When I started Micrel, same thing. I didn’t know that we were going to last 37 years as a company, but I kept working at it and it became a success over time. Whereas the other three companies that I started, we could call them a divorce actually, as you would because I divorced myself from that idea and moved on to another one.
So it doesn’t mean that just because you’re not successful in your first idea, your approach means you’re not going to be successful in the long run. The whole purpose of this podcast is to talk about turning your dreams into a reality. Turn your dreams into a reality, so that becomes a success, whether it’s your first marriage, your second marriage, hopefully not more than two. You want to turn that relationship into a long-lasting one. Thank goodness I only been married once and married for 64 years, so that turned out to be successful, but I wanted it to succeed. Did we have any bumps in the road and any times when we thought we were upside down? Yeah, sure. But we overcome them. We straighten them out and move forward because we’re human and we make mistakes and we have to recover from those mistakes.
Rob Artigo: I think that attitude that you just described there is a good thing to have built into any plan, whether it’s for business or in life, is that be ready to expect ups and downs and the things that might help you survive those dips, if you will, right?
Ray Zinn: Well, and have the ability, for example, if you started a company that was going to take more money than you had then you obviously didn’t plan very well because you have to look at what you can afford as you move forward, whether it be a wife or a girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever, you got to make sure you can afford what you’re going to do. And so taking off in a business venture without sufficient funds to see it to completion, that’s stupidity. So again, make sure you have the wherewithal to accomplish the goal that you’ve set for yourself.
Rob Artigo: Thanks, Ray. Great conversation. And the listeners can join us at toughthingsfirst.com if they have questions or comments. Please follow Ray on X and on Facebook and also LinkedIn and check out Ray’s books, Tough Things First and the Zen of Zinn series one, two, and three, and on sale now, The Essential Leader: 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals That Make Up the Essential Leader Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.
A lifetime of leadership experience wrapped in an entertaining and informative read. Join Tough Things First for the official launch of The Essential Leader by Ray Zinn, 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals that Make Up The Essential Leader. (Watch the Video Podcast)
Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, former Bay Area Radio Personality and your host for this edition of The Tough Things First podcast. Here with me once again is Ray Zinn, the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley history. Today we understand the Essential Leader. This is a special podcast in more ways than one, it’s a video podcast. The link is at toughthingsfirst.com. Today is the day we announce Ray Zinn’s newest book, fresh Off the presses, The Essential Leader, 10 Skills, Attributes, and Fundamentals that Make Up The Essential Leader. Congratulations, Ray. This book really turned out great.
Ray Zinn: I think it’s one of the most important books that I’ve ever written.
Rob Artigo: In this podcast I’ll read a couple of excerpts from it. We’ll talk about Greg who did the forward and just sort of discuss the book. But today we understand that this book is available at all retailers. It is available in digital and print form, and we’re happy to have you read it and we hope you will. So what inspired you to write about leadership in this way? I mean, The Essential Leader, that’s promising a lot and it delivers.
Ray Zinn: Well, the whole subject of leadership has been written about forever. I mean, going all the way back to the time of Christ. I mean, who is my mind the greatest of all leaders. Unfortunately, leaders are looked upon as being not so good. Other words, they’re looked upon in a negative way. Whether you’re a corporate leader, or a political leader, or international leader, whatever your role is as a leader it’s not necessarily viewed in a positive light. So I decided to write about the essential leader, being not just leading, but what are the essential aspects and attributes of a good leader? So I worked on that. I have spent months looking at and thinking and reading about what is essential to be a good leader. So that’s what prompted me to write the book.
Rob Artigo: Also it was a while back, it was a few years ago, but what we did a podcast series a little bit shorter than what’s in this book on being the essential leader. A lot of those ideas came from that. I mean, we culled it from various aspects of things that we’d covered in podcasts and said, why don’t we take one of these and make a chapter out of it? You came up with some really good ideas. I’m just going to flip through to, let’s see, where the chapters are and I’ll just give you a couple of them.
So you talk about sound judgment, which I’ll have a quote from here shortly. But you talk about the concept of try, try again and you have a twist on that. How you carry yourself, what you wear is really important and valuable as far as people deciding whether or not they want to follow you. You had some really cool ideas. One of them was on re-thinking micromanagement because that has been something that, like people in leadership not being viewed in high esteem, you have people who have varying attitudes or opinions about micromanagement and you say, hey, look, it’s really about managing by walking around. That’s micromanaging in a way where you’re there but you’re not really micromanaging.
Ray Zinn: Well, this whole concept of micromanagement has a negative connotation, it doesn’t need to be. Micromanagement, if you don’t look at the small things, at the details, the large things are going to become a problem. So micro means small. Okay? That’s what micro means, or tiny. So you want to look out for the tiny things because the tiny things are the ones that kill you. Those are the ones we tend to overlook. The things that we tend to not really reflect on or try to do anything about because we’ll say, “Oh, it’s such a small thing, it’ll take care of itself,” but they don’t.
Small things become big things. It’s like a leak in your radiator, it’ll become a big thing ultimately. Micro, being small, and managing being managing the small things as well as the large things, it’s often viewed that leaders are looking at the big picture. Well, you got to look at the small picture too, not just the big picture. That keeps you focused on the objectives of the company, what you’re trying to accomplish to become a successful company. I turned the negative aspects of micromanaging into a positive and that was the purpose of that chapter.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, I mean you’re really saying when you walk around and find out what are the small things that are happening to the people who are on your staff, you understand what they’re going through and their experiences and you can help them address those things so that they’re more productive and more creative or they’re better sales people or whatever the case may be. You also have here, fortunately, and I want to remind people, this is the book launch video for The Essential Leader and it’s Ray Zinn’s new book out today, everywhere in print and digital if you’d like to grab it. Greg McCown-
Ray Zinn: McEwen.
Rob Artigo: McEwen, I mispronounce his name all the time. Terrific endorsement from him, “Participating in this is really cool.” He’s written some books himself and widely regarded as a pretty smart guy. That must have been pretty interesting to get him on.
Ray Zinn: Oh yeah. I mean, Greg’s a friend of mine, but he’s also a Stanford grad and very knowledgeable in business. Also he’s done podcasts and written extensively. He actually has a book called Essentialism, which is kind of interesting because essentially the same thing as what I’m talking about, the essential, what are the essential aspects of leadership. He talks about what’s the essential aspects of living your life, focusing on the key aspects of existence as opposed just to just let come what may as you would, or reacting to everything rather than only reacting to the things which are essential. That’s kind of where he was headed, and when I wrote about the Essential Leader and doing the same thing, what are the essential aspects of being a good leader? When I became listed as Silicon Valley’s longest serving CEO, I reflected on that. I didn’t know I was going to get that honor.
Then when it was put out and published, I reflected on it. I says, that’s interesting. Why am I the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley? Because Silicon Valley is one of the most well-known places on earth. I mean, I don’t know of anyone in a civilized nation that doesn’t know where Silicon Valley is or what Silicon Valley is. So here I am living and being a CEO in probably the hotbed of technology and probably one of the best known places on earth, and here I am the longest serving CEO. It really boils down to my style of leadership. That’s what we cover in the book is, how do you become a long serving CEO? Most CEOs don’t serve for more than five years, that’s the average. So I’ve served nearly 40, and so that’s like eight times what the average CEO serves. So I said, okay, how do I do that? What allows me then to become the longest serving CEO? That’s what’s covered in the book is my experience and what it takes to be able to have longevity, to be able to have that tenure as a CEO.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, you have a way in this book about conveying some stories where you talk about historical figures and how they play into the idea of how people view leadership and there’s good leadership and bad leadership, and you also attribute your success not to just your own ability to get things done, but that you place so much emphasis on the people who work for you, the teams that are there. You have one whole chapter called Inspiring Passion, and it says, “If you do not have passion, you have a hole in your leadership, and that’s specific to the essential leadership of the essential leader. If the essential leader doesn’t have passion, certainly not essential.” You said, “I used to say, if that was the case, you might as well just roll over and bury yourself. That means you can just hang things up right there in business or anywhere else for that matter. If you don’t have passion and you can’t inspire that in your teams, then you might as well forget it.”
Ray Zinn: Absolutely. It’s our passion that bleeds over to others that inspires them to want to be the best of the best, of the best. They talk about good, better, best. I mean, to do that you need to be passionate about what you’re doing because that becomes the hallmark of a successful company is the passion of that company. If I look at Intel Semiconductor, who was formed in 1967, I think it was, and I started my company in 1978, Intel was considered the greatest on earth. I mean Bob Noyce, Gordon Moore, and those folks that started Intel were my idols at Fairchild, when I worked at Fairchild. So they put together a very wonderful team of people and a passion like you wouldn’t believe, it was a real passion with the people that worked at Intel. But over the years, Intel has kind of lost their way. I think they’ve lost their passion, honestly, Rob.
I mean that passion has disappeared. I saw it happening in the early ’80s is where I saw Intel’s passion kind of drift, and they became less and less of a factor in the semiconductor industry. I’m hoping they’ll find their passion back because that says who they are. We often talk about Steve Jobs and Apple, and I remember how that company started out and it was a nobody. I mean, they had difficulty even getting underway. Then once they got themselves going and Steve Jobs was able to inculcate that passion in Apple, it began to flourish.
Then in about 1995, Steve left Apple and Apple began to lose their passion because the passion was Steve Jobs, and then he went off and did something else, and then Apple’s passion drifted and it lost its purpose. It wasn’t until Steve came back several years later that that passion came back to Apple. Now look Apple’s one of the most highest rated companies in the world. So passion has to be from the leader. So that’s why we talk about in that chapter of Essential Leader, of how important passion is, because without passion, you’re nothing.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. You talk at length about when we knew that Steve Jobs was going to pass away he created a secession plan so that he could pass things off. He found the right guy and the right guy …. Every step of the way the right guy follows him because he’s inspired passion in them and he knows that they have the ability to inspire passion in others. This book, which again is The Essential Leader by Ray Zinn, terrific book about these aspects of leadership, also areas of knowledge that you need to get your hands on in order to be the essential leader.
I mean, everybody wants a good leader. People hope to get a great leader, but the essential leader is he/she is in the realm of a needle in a haystack. I mean, you also talk about women in leadership in this book, and you say sometimes they’re even better and more qualified than their male counterparts to do things. That’s really cool too. We expect women will want … Young women too. I mean people in college age who are in business want to get MBAs or whatever the case may be, or just be entrepreneurs and start businesses. This is a terrific book. There’s no other place where you’re going to get this. Also, it’s not like it’s a big 300, 400, 500 page book. It cuts to the chase. It has really succinct messaging in it and it’s very clear. Ray, is there anything else you’d like to add before we wrap up our special podcast here on the book launch?
Ray Zinn: Well, I think if you want to become an essential leader, and I mean that sincerely from the bottom of my heart, you need to get this book. It will help you understand what it takes to be the longest serving CEO.
Rob Artigo: Great way of ending it right there, Ray. So that’s The Essential Leader by Ray Zinn available on all major book platforms. It’s in paperback, but also digital if you want to get it. Check it out on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other platforms, we hope you will. Ray, you’re fond of telling people to make sure, at each one of these platform, wherever they buy the book, they should rate the book so that we understand how their reaction to it and we can gauge what to do in the future.
Ray Zinn: Exactly. Thank you very much, Rob.
It is getting easier to instruct AI tools as a shortcut for sending out emails and social media posts, but when is it a misleading crutch? Ray Zinn discusses changing AI use and how to recognize the gray areas of using AI and calling it your own work. (Watch Video Podcast…)
Ray Zinn: Good morning there, Rob.
Rob Artigo: Well, this is a special edition of the Tough Things First Podcast. If you’re listening, you can check out toughthingsfirst.com, find this podcast, and right next to it there’s a link that says video. So you could click on it and watch it if that is your choice, or listen to it now and watch it later, whatever. While preparing this podcast, Ray, I logged into Microsoft Copilot, something I’ve been kind of experimenting with in a few different ways. And I asked it to write an email about this podcast, which is about having AI or ChatGPT write your letters, emails, or social media posts.
So I logged into Microsoft Copilot and I just said, “Can you write an email for me?” It said, “Yeah, what’s the topic?” And I told it what the topic was, and then what it said was… Here’s the email. Subject line is, “Join us for an insightful podcast on AI and email communication exclamation point.” And it says, “Hi recipient’s name, we are excited to invite you to our upcoming podcast episode where we dive into the fascinating world of AI-driven email communication. Our special guest, Ray Zinn, the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley history, will be sharing his invaluable advice and insights.” And then it has the date and time and it says, “Put the link here.” And it says, “Look forward to having you with us. Best regards, your name.”
So what I’d really like to do is ask you just based on that, I mean, that was a very quick thing. If I didn’t want to craft it myself, seriously, Ray, it would’ve taken me just as long to write the email myself and do that same thing rather than having the AI do it. But let’s have your reaction to me going through the process of having something else create the email for me.
Ray Zinn: Well, for one thing, it says AI, so there’s the starting point. I mean it’s already doing kind of an advertisement for artificial intelligence. And it’s just interesting that AI really is a buzzword. We’ve had ways of doing emails that way before cut and paste. I’ve used cut and paste for, I don’t know, 50 years.
Rob Artigo: And people don’t think of that as being AI, but that’s basically what that is. It’s using an algorithm to work something out for you.
Ray Zinn: Yeah. So my point though is that I’ve pulled up old emails and just edited a few things and sent it back out. So if the topic is general in nature, like, “I’d like to invite you to my birthday or my anniversary or whatever.” That’s pretty straightforward because we have these group lists that we can call up and do a blast email blast as you would. Because this is an election year, I get probably 10 email blasts a day, and they’re all quote-quote AI crafted as you would. And I can tell it because they look bland. Okay.
Rob Artigo: Okay.
Ray Zinn: And so it doesn’t sound like anything that comes across as being personal to me as you would. The other day, I received a letter, actually a card, but written on it. It was handwritten by the governor of Montana who was thanking me for all the things I was doing in the community. That meant more to me than getting an email blast that just says, “Thank you for your support, blah, blah, blah.” And so handwritten, I mean, if I get a handwritten birthday card or a handwritten note from someone, that means more to me than if they just… Because I can tell if it’s crafted by AI or not AI, but by some generic email blast as you would. So can AI help? Yeah, sure, it can help.
It depends upon what you’re wanting to do, what your goal is. So if you just wanted to notify everybody that there’s going to be a meeting at such and such a time without having to sit there and type in that information, then you can do that with various, what they call abbreviated… You can type in, for example, M-A-T, MAT, meeting at time. You can have that just type in those three letters and it’ll craft, if you already have a predefined thing you want to send out. It’ll do that for you. And then you can just type in the time or the date. So this is really what it is.
As I’ve mentioned, AI has been around for a long time. I mean, it’s not… it’s just a buzzword referred to as AI. I remember Al Gore claiming he invented the internet, which was another misnomer as you would. The internet in a sense has been with us for many, many years and long before Al Gore did it. So what we do is we have these little buzzwords, these little things that we call smart this, smartphones, smart speakers, smart ovens, smart refrigerators, smart appliances. And they’re just nothing more than just a bunch of buttons that you push and it’ll then create whatever you want. For example, if you have a certain kind of washing machine load you want to do, you can have a predefined, you can program it as you would. It’s the same thing with your phone. You can program your phone to do different things or your computer.
And as I mentioned, this sort of thing has been around a very, very long time. I can remember back in 1978, 79 timeframe when IBM, what they call their… Oh shoot, I forgot the name of it, but it’s like a Skunk Works type thing. It wasn’t Skunk Works, but it’s had another name like Skunk Works, where they were playing around with doing a little personal computer. Now, IBM Corporate, they’ve been building computers since I was in college back in the 50s, but they were mainly for big corporations, and they were large expensive systems. They’ve taken up the size of a room. And so the Skunk Works Group down in Boca Raton, Florida, worked at IBM, wanted to come up with this little PC. And what’s interesting is that Heathkit made a PC, wasn’t called a PC, but it was a computer that you could put together, but that was a hobbyist thing. And all IBM did basically was take that S-100 bus, that Heathkit hobby thing, put it together with their own BIOS, and came out with a personal computer.
Now, granted it had a keyboard and a display and all that sort of thing, but it was nothing more than cobbling together stuff that was already there. And so when we talk about AI, you’re just cobbling stuff that’s always been there, making it a little more convenient and easy to use. But artificial means not real, fake as you would. And so fake intelligence, that doesn’t even sound good, does it?
Rob Artigo: [inaudible 00:09:04].
Ray Zinn: And again, if you’re just trying to knock out something, trying to speed up your day as you would, you can cobble together an email blast as you would by just having these predetermined emails that you’ve written over the past year or two and save them in your file and then have them named something, a certain name. You call it up and you just change the dates and times and so forth, or maybe a name or whatever, and you can do the same thing. So-
Rob Artigo: Let me just let you know that I actually thought of this topic when I was sales pitched by Adobe. And this isn’t a complaint about Adobe. Excuse me. I like their products, but what they asked me was, did I want to use their AI tool to write my emails? And what they suggested was that if I get a lot of documents, what this tool would do is it would scan the email for content and it would cr… I mean a document for content, and then it would craft an email about the content for you. And I said, “No, thank you. I can write my own emails.” What bothered me was the fact that they were interested in scanning my document and then crafting an email based on that. If I’m doing that, it probably means I’m cheating the system and not reading what’s in the document.
So if I don’t know what’s going on, and I put my stuff in the email based on what the AI suggests, and I send it out to everybody, other people will understand what the AI pulled out of the documents and its attitude or whatever you want to call it, toward what was in the document. But I won’t say what I believe is inside the documents. And so that kind of bothered me. What about the ethics Ray? Let’s wrap it up by asking about the ethics of it. If I don’t say this is AI, if it’s something that I created, but I don’t say it’s… I mean if it’s something I used AI to create, whether it’s an email or a long letter or something that’s typewritten, but I don’t really know what the content is because all I did was sort of do a cursory read after I had it create the message, am I behaving ethically? And am I really just setting myself up for failure down the road when somebody asks me, “Hey, you said in an email, blah, blah, blah.” And I don’t remember writing it because I didn’t, AI did?
Ray Zinn: Well. I think we’re giving AI more glory than it really needs.
Rob Artigo: Maybe.
Ray Zinn: When you do a cut and paste, if you’re using that term, again, you’re not creating something from scratch, you’re just going back to an old email and you’re pulling out some information and then doing a paste, being putting it back into the current one you’re doing. Is that ethical? And so whether it’s cut and paste, and that’s all it is. If you think about what AI is doing, they’re capturing tens of thousands of files and then creating something from you from those files. You can do the same thing just from your files, the documents that you keep. When you ask a computer or some other smart device, “What’s the date of Theodore Roosevelt’s birthday or whatever?” It just goes and searches millions of documents and brings back the information. It’ll also tell you the source of that information. It says, “According to Wikipedia or according to such and such and such source.” It’ll tell you what that source is.
So the ethical or the unethical part is that if you don’t say what the source of your information is, to some degree, that’s unethical because you’re pulling from somebody else’s information and using it as your own. So how authentic is that? Or how ethical is that? That depends upon what you’re trying to do. If you’re writing a original book and you’re copying somebody else’s work, then that’s not ethical. So when you copy somebody else’s, if they’re going to pull an email out of the universe and then say it was yours, that to some degree that’s unethical because it’s not original. So AI, if we know what… If something is specified as AI, then we can definitely say this is not original. So whether it be a video that looks like you, that’s not original. And so it depends upon what we’re trying to do, who we’re trying to fool as you would. So that’s the bottom line about what’s ethical and what’s not.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, and we talked at a previous podcast about what is copyrightable, and we know that portions of whatever your work is that you used specifically for… that you used AI to create instead of your own creative juices, if you will, then you’re not able to copyright that material. And that’s the reason why, because it could end up being somebody else’s material in the long run. And I think there’s nothing wrong with saying, “Hey, I used AI to create this.” And you could say that. You could just do a little disclosure, say, “I used AI to help me out with this because it was a long thing, but I read it and I agree with it.” So you could do that, and then that would kind of help you work it through.
Anyway, thank you, Ray. Great podcast, I’m glad we could do this on video. And I’d like to let the listeners know that you can join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions and your comments are always welcome. Follow Ray Zinn on Twitter, Facebook, I should say X, but I guess they still call it Twitter, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn. And of course, pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First, and the Zen of Zinn Series 1, 2, and 3.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.
Getting ahead at work is not complicated, but it does require effort. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses the concept of hiring from within a company, and how to be the person who moves up.
Rob Artigo: Good to be back. So let’s talk about promoting from within a company instead of seeking talent from elsewhere. Micrel, which you ran for 37 years, had a reputation for people wanting to stay and then anybody who left tended to want to come back at very high, what you called the boomerang rate. So people coming back to the company because they enjoyed the environment where they worked. That means that people are looking potentially for advancement within the company and they would like to be considered.
Are you a guy who preferred to promote from within or seek fresh talent from outside?
Ray Zinn: Well, again, it depends upon what the requirement is. If we’re in a new product line, a new area, and I don’t have that talent within the company, certainly I’ll look outside. Or if somebody leaves the company and there’s talent within the company, I would definitely promote within. I always look for within before I look for without, as you would. And so, the key here is letting people know within the company that they have a chance to advance themselves and that would promote their wanting to work harder or change their emphasis and scope of knowledge and industry as you would by knowing that the company promotes and fosters within the company as opposed to without.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, and what I think about is if I’m an employee for a company and I see an announcement that a position is opening up, happened to me once in radio where I was looking for specific responsibilities on a full-time basis. I went over and visited at a time when a person was retiring, and what it did was it moved the chessboard around a little bit and it opened up a spot. Turned out I was the first choice for the position, which was great and flattering because I was there. But I was also engaged and made myself visible and had expressed for a long period of time my desire and commitment and as well as my feelings about the company, which was that I really wanted to work in this role and they came right to me.
So in talking to people who see an announcement at the company, how do they stand out and let people know that they are interested, that they should be considered for that position in that promotion?
Ray Zinn: That’s easy. I mean, by letting people know how much you want to stay at the company and that’s the key is that-
Rob Artigo: Like loyalty? I mean, would you say in a word, loyalty?
Ray Zinn: Or, finishing your projects on time, acting happy, smiling, using positive vibes, as you would, circulating around the company, letting people know who you are. Just being a good person. I mean, that’s what companies want. Companies want good people, and so you just got to be a good person. We talked earlier in another podcast about on integrity, you want to have that. You want to be known as being honest and have integrity. Also that you’re a person who wants to help and contribute. When you greet somebody, say, “How can I help you?” Just be friendly. Be a very friendly, open, happy person.
Rob Artigo: And if you’re real serious, Ray, I imagine that it would be a good idea to be able to occasionally show somebody that you’ve done some professional development. Say, hey, I took this class. I mean, look, in some places where you’re very publicly forward in the positions, in sales for example, maybe having… You’re bilingual, you’re multilingual, you have a couple of languages. But I know you are fluent in Spanish. That if you went out and you said, “Hey, look, I’ve been studying Spanish for a while.” That’s an asset maybe that you weren’t hired with but you developed over time and now you can tell them, “Hey, look, I’ve been working on this and I got the certification of four years or whatever of training in Spanish and I just completed that. I wanted to let you know that this is beneficial for that.” But I mean, professional development I imagine would be helpful in letting people know that you’re serious.
Ray Zinn: Well, most companies offer a advanced course compensation. And so if you can see those individuals who are taking advantage of that, providing it’s a course and a study that will help them within the company, that should be a good indicator also that this individual is looking for advancement and be promoted from within. So again, there’s another source of finding out who’s willing to go the extra mile by those who are trying to advance their knowledge and education.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, great conversation. We’ve had a real good session and I do appreciate it. Join the conversation at ToughThingsFirst.com. If you have questions for Ray Zinn, you can provide them over at ToughThingsFirst.com. Your questions and comments are always welcome. Follow Ray Zinn on Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn, and of course pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First and the Zen of Zinn series and then coming soon, Essential Leadership.
Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.
Entrepreneurs accomplish a lot by themselves. Fierce independence is a common trait, but why not work smarter, not harder? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn details why going it alone isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, you write so much it’s hard to keep up, but one thing that you did right recently was, “To succeed, we need the support of others. Friends, customers, mentors, families and associates.” And these are in the home, these are at work and these are in the community, people that you bump into regularly at ACE Hardware, for example. So you say that you need to get this support, why do you think that that level of support is necessary for success?
Ray Zinn: Well, because we don’t live on an island, no man is an island. We need the help of others. We are very much a society of people.
We don’t do things all on our own unless we want, as a show, a TV reality show called Alone. Unless we want to be alone. We need the support of others. Going back to that TV series called Alone, I mean, you’re left out in some wilderness area and you have to survive on your own without help from anyone. And then when you give up, when you say, “I’m going to tap out,” and you dial this number, and then they come and get you and you’re off the show. But what’s interesting is that I’ve watched that series a number of times and almost half of the people that tap out are missing their family, are missing their relationship with others, and that’s interesting that half of them just can’t be alone. They can’t do it on their own, even though they’d like the money if they could survive that a hundred days on their own, it’s difficult to do.
There are very few people that can literally be on their own as you would Alone, and so the purpose of that particular musing was to talk about how we need to nurture that relationship because we need that relationship with our friends, our neighbors, our community if we’re to be successful, even in a company. I mean, if you’ve heard on the news how certain leaders are, they’re not well liked by those in the office.
I remember when I was running [inaudible 00:02:44], HR, Human Resources, would interview the employees that were leaving and ask them if they could be open with us and tell us why you’re leaving. Three-fourths of them said they were leaving because they didn’t like their boss. Think of that. I mean, three-fourths, that’s 75% of the people that leave to go to another job are doing it because they don’t like their boss. If you want to retain people, if you want to keep them working at the company, then you have to treat them correctly, and so it’s not just an eight-hour job and when you go home with your family or when you go out into the community, you are still who you are, and if you want to have a good relationship, then you need to nurture it. You need to make sure, because if you have a person that you want to mentor you, that person’s not going to want to mentor you if you’re not willing to listen, if you’re not willing to, if you don’t nurture that mentoring relationship or a customer.
I remember one time we had a customer was unhappy with the product that we were shipping them, and so when we went to visit with them, see what we could do to straighten the situation out, they took our parts and threw them in a wastepaper basket and said, “That’s what we think of your company.” It was a shock. That was a real eye-opener and I went, “What?” So we weren’t nurturing that relationship and obviously that customer quit doing business with us. Then I had to dig into, do a post-mortem and find out why that relationship fell apart, and I found out that it was that interrelationship between the salesperson and that company was the problem. So it wasn’t necessarily the company, it was the salesperson that was that relationship with the company.
Rob Artigo: You touched on so many points there that are related to this. You mentioned nurture, that was part of the get the support from you mentioned friends, customers, mentors, families, associates, those people as a whole. You want to have that support and this awareness is accomplished by nurturing these relationships. And you focused on nurture, which is really the bottom line here, is you have to be aware of these relationships and you have to nurture them because it does matter if you lose the sale because of it.
As always, Ray, the listeners can reach out to you with their own questions at toughthingsfirst.com. They can continue their education there and the conversation with all the podcasts, blogs, and links to information about your books, Tough Things First and the Zen of Zinn series and of course coming soon, Essential Leadership. Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks Rob.
The benefit of self-awareness becomes evident when you put that knowledge into action and then evaluate if these actions are working. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn uses his extensive experience as a leader in business to explain why the habit of self assessment and reassessment is worth developing.
Rob Artigo: In the Zen of Zinn one, we have a series of Zen of Zinn books and it’s one, two, and three, and I picked up the first one and looked at the first entry. So on page one, you ask the question … in your writing, you ask, are you a good leader? It says, “Good leaders can tell if anyone is following by seeing if the tasks are met on time. When you make sure the team is happy and working together, they will follow.”
Ray, isn’t it the trick for starters in being a good leader, convincing people simply to see you as a person worth following?
Ray Zinn: Yeah, we can tell the good leaders. We’re going through an election campaign right now and we’re trying to decide who will make the best leader of the country going forward. We look at how they interact with people, we look at how the people react with them, if they show interest.
As my note said in that Zen of Zinn one, are they meeting their obligations? Are they walking the talk? Are they happy? Do they sound happy? Do they act happy? Are they looking for another job? We look at all the different indicators as to whether or not the employees are engaged, and that determines whether or not you’re a good leader. If the people that you’re responsible for supervising are engaged, getting their tasks in on time, they’re happy, they’re doing quality work and they’re not looking for another job, that’s a good indicator you’re being a good leader.
Rob Artigo: Looking at the productivities and the quote, “If the tasks are being met on time, you can tell if they’re following you and they’re following instructions.” Is there a way that we can, as leaders, quantify or grade the productivity so that we can see that level of productivity that we know is either they’re responding or they’re not responding? How do we quantify that when we look at it?
Ray Zinn: Are they following? Other words, if you said, I need this done by noon tomorrow, as you would, then was it done by noon and was it done right? When you look at the output performance of your employees or those that you’re leading, and if those goals are being met, if you’re being realistic, then shows that the people are following.
Now, I was talking with an individual the other day who said that his new boss he doesn’t like. I said, “Well, why? What’s the reason?” He says, “Well, because he sets unrealistic goals. It’s almost like he wants me to quit, he wants me to leave.” So, I thought that was interesting. I’ve never quite seen it done that way where you set an unrealistic goal to hope the employee quits, because if that’s your goal, then you should just ask them to leave. I mean-
Rob Artigo: Yeah, why waste your time messing around with that?
Ray Zinn: Right, and most states, the right to work, it goes both ways, meaning that they had the right to leave, but you also have the right to fire them. So if you’re not happy with them, you want them to leave, just pull them in and say, “We’re going to give you two weeks or whatever, and here’s your paycheck, and go find another company.”
But to be a miserable boss, that word gets out. That’s not just going to stay within the company, that word gets out. You might be talking to a spouse or you might be talking to your … this fellow was talking to me, and I didn’t think much of the company after that. Even though I had nothing to do with the company, I didn’t think it was very quality of them to … if that’s their goal was to get people to quit and just give unrealistic goals, or harassing them or being belligerent with them.
That to me is not a good workplace, so I didn’t tolerate that at Micrel for sure. I didn’t like any of the managers to treat any employee improperly irrespective of what they were doing or not doing in respect to the performance of their job. If you’re not doing the job, get rid of them, that’s what I told them. Don’t just make their life miserable, because that gets around.
Rob Artigo: Well, now going back to the original question you asked, and this is a question that you were asking of yourself. Are you a good leader? So, give us an idea how we can ask ourselves that question. Is it kind of a daily reflection sort of thing, a self-evaluation?
Ray Zinn: Yeah, I’d say speaking out to the leaders, I’d ask, do you love your employees? Not in a physical sense, but in a spiritual sense, do you love them? Do you ask about how are your children doing? How’s your spouse doing? How’s your health or how’s your parents? Or whatever the subject may be, just show you’re interested in them. Do some walking around and just visit with them and see how they’re doing.
That shows them that you’re interested in them as a person. Not just in a piece of the gear that drives the machinery, that you’re really a special individual and that I care for you, I want you to happy. So the good leader wants his people to be happy, and so you got to do whatever it takes to ensure that they’re happy as individuals.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, the listeners should know that this is the kind of thing that you can learn more about in Ray’s upcoming book, Essential Leadership. Stay tuned for that. The Tough Things First Podcast, rapidly growing, one of the top in Silicon Valley. We’d like to keep that up, so make sure you are rating this podcast on your favorite platform. Share it too on social media and spread the word about Tough Things First.
Also, check out Ray’s other books, the Zen of Zinn series one, two, and three, and his first book, Tough Things First. If you haven’t already got those books, then please do, we invite you. Coming soon, again, Ray’s new book, Essential Leadership. I look forward to the next time, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.
In business, we want to see the bottom line grow! But in the last few years wading into politics and the latest social trend is having the opposite effect on sales. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explains the basic problem with divisiveness.
Rob Artigo: Well, I noticed that some companies have recently come out and said they’re changing the way that they attach their names to certain causes because some issues, and gosh, the last few years, almost any issue could, but some issues have proven to be so divisive that they’re not helpful. And Scripps is a company, for example, that has made some changes. It is apparently shutting down its 24-hour news channel and blaming advertisers because the advertisers are saying, “We don’t want to be involved in programming that has politics because it reflects on us.”
Rob Artigo cont… And the divisive nature of politics right now means that half of their customers are going to boycott them or stop buying their products simply by appearing to support one side or the other.
And as we know, the media right now doesn’t have the greatest reputation of unbiased. I don’t know anything about Scripps TV news work, so I don’t know. I’m not going to comment on whether they’re biased or not. But the CEO of Scripps had said this, “Many brands and agencies have decided that advertising around national news is just too risky for them given the fact that it’s so polarized in this country.” So Ray, put on your CEO hat, but also your past experience in marketing and sales. What have you seen in recent years? Do you support this idea? Do you see this happening in the corporate world?
Rob Artigo: Well, it depends upon if your product is agnostic, meaning it doesn’t matter what political party you subscribe to. If you’re selling cars, that’s pretty agnostic. It doesn’t matter except maybe if it’s electric or whatever, but-
Rob Artigo: Right, but it should be agnostic anyway you’d think.
Rob Artigo: Right. It should be agnostic. Or clothing, well, certain clothing. I guess there are clothes that are not agnostic.
Rob Artigo: No.
Rob Artigo: And food the same way. I mean, if you’re going to go to a pizza parlor, you wouldn’t expect to get steak or hamburger as you would. You have to gear your product around what group you’re trying to attract. The people at Old Navy try to attract younger people. If you’re a jewelry store, you’re not going to be selling clothing. You have to look at your product and whether or not it’s politically agnostic. Again, jewelry stores is pretty much politically agnostic. Now, news media, that’s very, very politically oriented, whether you’re a Democrat or Republican or liberal or whatever, libertarian I should say, you’re going to listen to certain stations because that’s the ones you want to hear because they agree with you. It’s really strange that most of us look at ourselves in terms of who we associate with.
Brands tend to be the kind of people that agree with us either religiously or politically or sports-wise, whether you’re a football fan or whether you’re a baseball or basketball, whatever. You want to gear your advertising, your marketing to attract the people that will most help grow your product line as you would. Obviously in this highly divided political environment we’re in, especially with this presidential election coming up, if you want to attract more advertisers as you would, you’re going to have to make your news, as you would, your product more agnostic. What I think is more interesting to our listeners is we can be different but not differ. If everybody looked alike, acted alike, it’d be pretty boring. And so we are all different. Every one of us. You and I are different, Rob. Just look at the way we dress. Look at our age difference, look at where we live.
So we are all different, but we don’t have to differ. Differ means to disagree. What we need to do is become less disagreeable or to differ less. We got to acknowledge that people are different. I think that Republicans and Democrats can get along perfectly fine, or we say liberals and conservatives can get along perfectly fine if they don’t focus on what differentiates us, as you would. The challenge here, I think is finding a way to attract people without differing as you would. I go to a particular restaurant because that’s the food taste that I particularly want that night or day or whatever. They provide that that means that they’re not going to get every single customer wanting to have that particular food that day. That’s why we have different restaurants, some Mexican food, Chinese, Japanese, French, Italian. What we need to do is not badmouth the Chinese because we want Japanese food or badmouth the French because we want Italian food. We just need to be less vocal about our differences. I particularly don’t like venison, which is deer meat.
Rob Artigo: But based on where you live, that’s pretty surprising.
Rob Artigo: I know, I know. But I don’t badmouth people because they like deer meat.
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Rob Artigo: I don’t particularly like it myself, but I’m saying just because you like it doesn’t mean you’re a bad person or because I like it or don’t like it doesn’t make me a bad person. Again, my focus here in this podcast is to talk about to be different but not differ.
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Rob Artigo: Or to not be so disagreeable, as you would. We tend to get caught up in all these ways of differing with each other. We need to stop doing that, whether the subject is abortion or immigration or economy. Now an economy would think we’d all agree on that. So that’s one where I don’t think that’s politically agnostic or it is that political agnostic, I should say, the economy.
Rob Artigo: More, certainly.
Rob Artigo: More, right.
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Rob Artigo: Now, abortion that tends to polarize and so does the immigration thing tend to polarize. And so we just need to, where we know it’s polarizing, we should just not become so vocal about it or so polarized about it because we drive away. We don’t bring together, we drive away. So stay away from those areas where it’s polarizing.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, don’t lose friends over disagreements on… And particularly when it comes to politics, and if you’re an advertiser or a business owner, you might want to think about your messaging and try to make it more agnostic and to avoid triggering people out there and your buying audience. Ray, I want listeners to know that they can go to toughthingsfirst.com. If they have questions for you, they can also make contact there. They can continue their education and this conversation and all the others with all the podcasts, blogs, and links, information about your books, Ray, Tough Things First, and of course, Zen of Zinn 1, 2, and 3. Great podcast and I do appreciate it. We’ll talk to you next time.
Rob Artigo: Thanks, Rob.
They are the errors that can do you in and you will have nobody to blame but yourself. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn defines what an unforced error is in the business word and what you can do to save yourself before they happen.
Rob Artigo: Ray, I was reading Zen of Zinn 3, in fact, right from page 191 it caught my attention. You wrote about unforced errors, define what an unforced error is.
Ray Zinn: Okay. It’s an error that you made that you weren’t forced to make. In other words, you did it because of just your lack of skill or paying attention to the problem, it end up being an unforced error.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. They actually track this stat in tennis and it’s interesting they go, “Okay. Well, let’s put up on the screen there’s Jones and Johnson, and this is how many unforced errors Johnson has. This is how many unforced error Jones has.” And they look at that as a comparison to be illustrative of what is an example of how they’re failing or succeeding. What are some of the reasons why they’re not doing well is usually the person with the most unforced errors is losing in the match. Not always, but that’s the case. But what you wrote was specifically saying it’s a sports analogy, but in reality, this is something that occurs in business life and personal lives. We can run into this situation where we have unforced errors.
Ray Zinn: It’s like a mistake. In other words, you made a mistake. Maybe you played too close to the net and maybe you were swinging with your wrong hand at that particular ball. Or the same thing in basketball or football. I mean, we see unforced errors in life, meaning these are just mistakes, and to avoid mistakes you don’t want to repeat them. So as you pointed out in this example of tennis, the more unforced errors you have it means you make lots of mistakes. You may be a superb forehand or backhand slammer, but if you make too many unforced errors, you’re more likely to lose the match. It doesn’t matter how smart or how glib or capable you are if you’re making lots of mistakes, that’s going to cover up all the good stuff you’re doing. As they say, one rotten apple will spoil a barrel is a case of one unforced error can do more damage than a bunch of good slams that you did.
Rob Artigo: I think of it Ray, as the one way of looking at an unforced error is the person who drives their car around with the indicator getting closer to E and getting closer to E, and getting closer to E and going, “I’ll go get gas the first thing I do tomorrow morning.” And then they go and get in their car and they don’t make it to the gas station. That’s an unforced error. That’s where they just simply were not responsible about taking care of something early enough. That’s a mistake that should have been avoided, and basically, that’s the kind of mistake you’re talking about here is one that should have been avoided.
Ray Zinn: Yeah. The ones, if you had paid attention, you wouldn’t have made it. Or if you were trying to gamble, let’s say you were trying to gamble on something that’s still an unforced error. You want to be prudent in the risks that you take and not unprudent. Because an unprudent error is a unforced error because somebody didn’t make you make that mistake. You did it either because you were not watching what you’re doing or you’re taking too big of a risk, but you want to avoid unforced errors because the greater your unforced errors are, especially those that don’t get resolved, the greater chance you have of failing.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. And you mentioned in other podcasts about how our lives behind the scenes can have negative impacts on our companies and our businesses. In Essential Leadership, a book that you’ve got coming out soon, we spent a lot of time talking about that and being responsible for those sorts of things. The bottom line is that unforced errors can be very costly and a person who has the most unforced errors is not going to be considered much of a leader.
Ray Zinn: We know a lot of people in public life that didn’t know their little unforced error was going to be such a damaging thing, but you got to watch what you do and watch what you say because with today’s technology, it’s saved and it’ll come back to bite you. You can do all the deleting you want and hopefully, nobody will find out your unforced error, but they will. It will come back.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. The one thing you don’t want to do is wake up in the morning going, hopefully, that won’t happen because it will probably-
Ray Zinn: It will.
Rob Artigo: … happen.
Ray Zinn: Exactly.
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Ray Zinn: You can’t hide an unforced error.
Rob Artigo: Well, to our listeners, thank you for listening to the Tough Things First podcast, the home for Ray Zinn the longest-serving CEO in Silicon Valley history, author of the book Tough Things First, also the great series, Zen of Zinn, which is 1, 2, and 3 books we’ve all mentioned in this podcast here, and we appreciate you being around to listen. Please rate the podcast, it’s a fast-growing podcast for Silicon Valley. Really popular these days, and we appreciate you being here. Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks again, Rob.
Even if you have decided to shun social media, virtually every type of communication you use is a form of content creation. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn talks about ways we overlook our status as influences just because we don’t post videos of ourselves all the time. (Ironically, Watch Here…)
Ray Zinn: Hi, Rob. Good to be with you today.
Rob Artigo: Great to be back. This, of course, is one of our favorite occasions. It’s a special edition of the Tough Things First podcast. If the listener wants to watch it, all they have to do is navigate to the website, ToughThingsFirst.com, and then click on the Watch Now link right next to this podcast, obviously, the intro to the podcast, and watch instead of just listen, which is great. I’m wearing my sports coat today, which works out great.
Ray, one of the notes that we got as a suggested topic was content creators today are shaping far more than purchasing decisions and trends. They’re shaping public opinion on major national and international issues, which we know. I mean, we hear about this all the time. X, formerly known as Twitter, other platforms, people are creating content all the time, and they’re influencing. We worked together on the book Essential Leadership that’s forthcoming, we’re proud to say, and you did a whole chapter on how everybody’s an influencer and the essential leader has to look at themselves as a influencer. Are they also content creators in a general sense?
Ray Zinn: They sure are. I mean, there’s a program on TV, it’s called American Greed, and what’s interesting is that the way you live your life, what you do with the resources that you have, influences others, either for good or for bad. And so the concept of being an influencer is very important.
I mean, it’s the same thing that’s happening in the political environment, whether it be Donald Trump being sued for election interference or for his business dealings, or whether it be Biden regarding his son and other problems that his son is having. That has an influence on the election.
Or if you’re running a company, if you are doing things which are not legitimate or appear to be greedy, you may not be doing something that’s against the law per se, but if you come across as a greedy individual where you’re focusing on yourself … In fact, that’s one of the things that they’re complaining about Trump is that he’s focused on himself, and then Kamala Harris says she’s focused on others. So it’s a way that they have of steering the influence, as you would, either toward them or against them.
When we think about what kind of influence we’re having, either in our business dealings or employment or socially, we have to be careful what kind of an image we’re portraying. In our book that we’re coming out with soon, in Essential Leadership, we cover that. That’s one of the major chapters is, what kind of an influencer are you? Because you are influencing, whether you’re a school teacher, or whether you’re a nurse, or a doctor, or a lawyer, or whatever your field of business is, you influence.
In one of our podcasts, we’re going to cover the effect of nurturing your influence, as you would, or those that you do influence, those who you’re associated with. And so you can’t say just because you’re a student, or you’re a school teacher, or a nurse, or maybe a construction worker, that you’re not having influence, but you do. That affects your income, that affects your merit review is how well you are influencing others. And so getting the job done, as you would, working as a team, team building, even as an individual contributor, whether you’re working from home or whether you’re working at the office, you are having an influence.
In fact, what’s interesting is as we deal with working from home and either using some kind of media to interact with others, it’s actually you have a bigger challenge, because you’re not directly in front of someone. You’re actually doing it vis-a-vis some kind of a media connection, and maybe they don’t even see your face. Maybe they just hear your voice, so they can’t read the expression on your face, or how you’re dressed, or how your interaction is. If you’re going to be a good influencer, make sure that when you are working from home or working through some kind of a media interface, that you do it correctly. That your tone of your voice, the way you’re coming across, the way you’re answering questions is appropriate.
One of the things they’re talking about in the upcoming election is how Trump comes across or how Kamala Harris comes across. So how we come across is what we’re talking about in this podcast is, how are we influencing?
Rob Artigo: You made a valuable point there. Your points are always valuable to me. But, specifically, about the fact that you don’t have to be a TikTok participant where you’re out videoing yourself and then sending out a message. That there are subtle ways in which you are a content creator, that even in an email, you’re a content creator in a literal sense-
Ray Zinn: Exactly.
Rob Artigo: … and that those things are influential. I guess the question you have to ask yourself is, is this an appropriate message to send? Am I sending the message that would be something that I want shared with other people, and do I want other people to emulate it? For example, we talked about the election, is do I want a vote to go one way or another? Maybe what I’m saying sounds like I’m interested in one candidate, but I’m actually going to vote for another. You’ve mixed the message, and you’re not being a good influencer, obviously, and your content that you’ve created is confusing.
Ray Zinn: Well, the interesting thing is that Donald Trump, for example, says, “I am who I am.” Well, we all are that. We all are who we are. But depending upon how we want to come across depends upon what kind of influence we want to be. Do we want to be a negative influence or a positive influence? Hopefully we want to be a positive influence, either because we’re selling a product, or because we’re trying to build a relationship with another person. As I said, we’re going to cover that in another podcast, but our sociability, the kind of preeminence we want to be in whatever setting that is, is important.
I know that in this upcoming election, they’re talking about Donald Trump. “I wish he would back down on the rhetoric, talk about policies and issues rather than talking about the person,” but he’s not listening, he’s just doing it the way he wants to do it. And then the same thing with Kamala Harris. She’s doing it because that’s who she is. Maybe they both want to say, “I want you to vote for me for what I can do, not for how I’m acting or how I’m coming across,” which is difficult to separate. You’re bifurcating. You’re trying to say, “Well, I’m really not the person that I’m portraying myself to be. I’m really somebody else.”
If you want to come across as genuine, then, of course, you want to be who you are. But by the same token, though, you don’t want to come to a funeral dressed in a bathing suit. You want to make sure your interaction is appropriate for whatever role it is that you’re trying to achieve, whether you’re trying to be in a mentoring role, or whether you’re trying to be receiving information from someone where they’re trying to mentor you. So the information or the kind of input you want or output you want depends upon what kind of a image you’re trying to portray, which is again, this influencing image.
If you’ve watched TikTok, you’ve seen really goofy-looking TikTok videos, because what the person’s trying to portray, it comes across to me as kind of silly and stupid, but to others, they enjoy it, because it’s what they want to see. It’s how they want to be influenced, as you would.
Rob Artigo: As you mentioned, we are going to cover some territory in being an influencer for good in an upcoming podcast. This is a different area of being an influencer, but, obviously, the message ties in with the other one, which is being an influencer for good. So you can join the conversation at ToughThingsFirst.com. We appreciate you being here to watch or listen, as this is a special edition of the Tough Things First podcast. Your questions and comments are always welcome. Follow Ray on X, Facebook and LinkedIn. Please rate this podcast, so that we can keep the momentum going and grow this podcast more times over as it is a popular podcast. Check out Ray’s books, the Zen of Zinn I, II, and III. It’s a whole series. Also, of course, the flagship book, which is Tough Things First. Be prepared, because the ball’s going to drop soon on this book, Essential Leadership, and you won’t want to miss that. Thank you again, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.
Asked for an opinion or not, it seems most people jump at the chance to say what’s on their minds. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses the ways opinions can go wrong, and how to make them go the right way.
Rob Artigo: Often flipping through Zen of Zinn one, two, or three and things appeal to me in some way, shape, or form. Hit me in a way and I write down a note, and I think this one did. You wrote about how people are quick to offer critical opinions, but you also suggest that an opinion that creates hard feelings should be avoided. Why is that the case?
Ray Zinn: Well, we talk about protests. A protest is an opinion effectively, and there’s no such thing as a good protest. They’re all evil, or they all have hatred or some animosity associated with a protest. So when you express an opinion, you’re actually protesting because if you’re not, unless you agree with somebody else’s opinion, you’re offering a counter view on something.
Ray Zinn Cont: And opinion is an unsubstantiated fact, is what an opinion is. In other words, it’s your view of a particular thing that may or may not have any substance to it whatsoever, but it is usually an opposing view on something. That’s what opinion is. So if an opinion doesn’t enhance the situation, if it doesn’t uplift it, if it doesn’t cause it to become better, then you should avoid it. As you say, your mom always says, if you haven’t got something good to say, don’t say it at all.
And so if you’re offering an opinion because you want damage a relationship, then that’s what’s going to happen. What is your goal? Why am I offering this opinion? Am I offering it because I want to ruin the relationship that I have? Or is it because I want to enhance the relationship that I have? So that’s that birds of a feather flock together thing. So depending upon what your goal is, what is your objective? Do you want to enhance the relationship or you want to destroy it? If you’re offering an opinion that’s going to destroy a relationship, like a protest, as you would, I would say avoid it. I don’t know why you would want to destroy a relationship. No matter how much you might dislike that relationship, destruction is never good. I don’t know, unless you’re trying to demolish a house to rebuild another one.
I don’t know why you would want to destroy a relationship unless it didn’t. If it wasn’t there to begin with, I guess you’re not going to destroy it anyway. But my point though is that be careful about how readily you’re going to offer up your view. If it doesn’t enhance, if it doesn’t develop, improve the relationship. I would avoid it. Keep your opinions to yourself. Now again, as your mother would tell you, if you haven’t got something good to say, don’t say it at all. And remember, most of what we say is an opinion, our view. We’re always offering our view, whether it’s wanted or not. These podcasts, these are effectively views on particular subjects. We’re offering this one up as a positive, and that if you haven’t got something good to say, just keep it to yourself. And if you got something good to say, then obviously if it’s helped to either help your relationship or help strengthen a particular view, then go ahead. But again, the purpose of this podcast is to reinforce how much our opinion or our views do affect our relationship with others.
Rob Artigo: Well, let’s close out the podcast by getting a good answer to this part of it, which is that in the business world, we may be faced with having to make tough decisions, tough decisions, where we don’t want to destroy somebody. But at the same time, like on Shark Tank for example, Shark Tank is something we bring up all the time on the show because such a great example of different communications and pitches and how to respond in the business world to different things. But sometimes the criticism can be harsh, but that’s the person’s opinion, that criticism, it’s based on many different levels of knowledge, but it’s still an opinion about the product, about the person, what they’re doing. Is that a place to be tactful or a place to be direct?
Ray Zinn: Well, you’re talking about a video or a TV show, a reality show or a Shark Tank. And it may be the view of the producer of Shark Tank to be more controversial because they want people to come back and watch this show. So you’re going to get more controversial discussion in a TV show than you are in a real life situation. I remember I was running… I did a TV series. It was one that they wanted to release. It actually didn’t get released, but I was involved in that. And I remember one series that we did on the TV show, reality show. They didn’t think it was controversial enough, and so they redid it themselves. They just changed things around, inserted comments and stuff to make it more controversial as you would.
So in reality, TV shows they are more controversial than normal because I’ve been at a lot of shark tape type environments with companies, not TV shows, but real shows as you would real interfaces. And they weren’t near as controversial as it is in the Shark Tank. And you have a whole bunch of different people that are all trying to play off one against the other. And it’s for… It’s a little different Shark Tank because it’s a TV show reality show.
Rob Artigo: And I guess the idea is don’t emulate what you’re seeing on television as being the appropriate behavior in a work environment.
Ray Zinn: Yeah, exactly. All of you have watching enough TV shows to know that they’re built to, or they’re developed to be shown to a lot of different audiences with different views and what they want to see, and they’re trying to attract the biggest audience they can.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, so that’s the reality TV series, reality Check for you here on Tough Things First. This is a rapidly growing podcast rated at your favorite venue, whatever, it’s your streaming services that you’re using at the moment. And tell them you like us. Come back to Tough Things First and listen again. We always appreciate you being here. Please also check out Ray’s books, Tough Things First is the book you want to get, and then the Zen of Zinn series. I look forward to the next time. Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks Rob.
No matter the size of the investment or the investor group, cash infusions to boost your company will come with strings. In this Tough Things First podcast, offers some thoughts on how it works and what to expect.
Rob Artigo: I recently read that Applied Digital, it’s a data center operator, their shares recently had soared like 65%. They said they would receive $160 million in financing from a group of investors. That would be including investment from Nvidia. I use Nvidia products, I like it. It’s in my computer. It’s good for digital editing, and audio, and that sort of thing, so I’m a big fan, but where I’m going with this topic here is part of the investment group is a real estate firm called Related Companies. I kind of think like, “Okay. You got Nvidia, makes sense for the type of company that Applied Digital is, but then there’s also an outside firm, this real estate investment firm that’s involved.” I think, “Wow, it seems like there’s not synergy there Nvidia and the investment firm would expect something out of the deal.”
Rob Artigo: Let’s talk about what big investors in companies like your company, Micrel, which you ran for more than 37 years, what you deal with when people are coming in, and who want to participate and get a piece of the pie, and that sort of thing. I mean, you’ve seen it, you’ve participated in it. Do investors, are they just looking for a little cash or are they looking for influence and sometimes ownership, a little bit of a piece of the action ownership-wise?
Ray Zinn: Well, most of the time, depending again what their role is with the company, if it’s strictly for an investment, then they’re just putting money in and hoping that, at some point down the road, the company is able to then repay that investment many times over, whereas others like venture capital… I’m not sure maybe even Nvidia would want to put somebody on the board so they can monitor their investment real time, because if you’re just investing, then you don’t get regular financial reports and so forth. But if you’re on the board and you’re able to have a regular influence with the company, then you can monitor your investment a little closer, so I’m not sure how much money Nvidia put in or that real estate company.
But in the case of Nvidia, there may be some synergy there because of the technology that Digital has. The real estate company may be just trying to diversify from real estate into some more technology, because Nvidia has had an extremely fast growth in the last couple of years, and maybe they’re just wanting to catch that wave and benefit from that investment. Again, without knowing what the role of those different individuals are, companies are, it’s hard to say where their emphasis is. In the case of Nvidia, it’s probably more synergy, whereas in the other, it might be just they’re wanting to diversify their investment portfolio.
Rob Artigo: Is it fair to say that the level of investment is going to be oftentimes commensurate to what the level of interest is going to be? In other words, I can buy stock. I don’t own any stock Nvidia or this other company or whatever, so I don’t know… I don’t have any of those things, but I can invest as an individual investor by buying a share. Just get one share. That’s one level of investment, and it’s completely removed from the activity of the company. But if I get into the mid-range, I’m in the couple of million dollars in something, and then the next level, it goes up from there. Eventually, the higher end, you’re going to get the people who want to have more influence and have a seat on the board, your guy who started Micrel without venture cap.
Ray Zinn: We’re covering a whole lot of ground here on this subject, so I’m not sure how we want to tie this up in a neat bow, but you’ll have these companies that their whole purpose is to buy a large percentage of the company and then be able to either get rid of the current leadership or to change the direction of the company.
Rob Artigo: As a CEO, I would want to be aware of the fact that it’s not just a one-size-fits-all relationship and that there are things that I need to watch out for if I… I have to make sure that what I’m doing is good for the company and not just assume that it’s all going to work out. Micrel didn’t have a lot of this, but yet you’ve been in the business world a long time. Are you fond of that relationship when you have to deal with a board that you have to work new relationships with?
Ray Zinn: Well, if you’re a public company and then they file a 13D, they can come in and buy once they buy a certain percentage of your company. If they’re one of those adversarial investors, then they can… If they have enough shares, they can dictate how you run your company effectively. Again, if you’re a public company, you’re stuck with what the investors want to do with regard to that dollar they want to spend in your company. If you’re a private company, you have a similar problem. Most of these companies, like Nvidia or this other real estate company, depending again how much money they’re putting in, they probably want a see it on the board so they can monitor that investment.
Rob Artigo: Thanks, Ray. As always, you could reach out to raise in with your questions at toughthingsfirst.com. Continue your education and the conversation with all the podcasts, blogs, links to information about Ray’s books. Tough Things First, of course, you always have to get that one, and then the other books, the series, the Zen of Zinn 1, 2, and 3. Remember, Essential Leadership is coming up. We want you to be focused on and preparing for that. Take pre-orders or whatever we can do to get you interested. Thanks again, Ray.
Ray Zinn:
Thanks, Rob.
Money is not everything, but if you want it, are creative, and a bit delusional, you have a shot and being more than lucky. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn points out the difference between a healthy delusion and being downright crazy.
Rob Artigo: You’ve probably heard of tennis star, Coco Gauff. [inaudible 00:00:17] she’s a major champion tennis star and she’s using that fame, which probably based on good advice, to take some of the money she’s got and the influence that she has, and she’s using it to parlay that into a billion-dollar entrepreneurial endeavor, which is probably a combination of businesses. I didn’t look closely at it, but I’m assuming that’s what that is. Usually that’s the case for the athletes that are operating smartly, but she actually recently encouraged people of her age who have similar goals to be delusional.
So look at the definition of delusion versus likely meaning behind her advice. I think there might be a little disconnect between the actual definition and what she said. So there’s delusional, and then there’s risk, favored by risk-takers not gamblers. And I guess that’s one way that I would put it. So when it comes to ideas, she says, don’t be afraid to be delusional. So then I’ll give you the quote, “I think delusional is great.” Now, forgive her syntax there. “I think delusional is great,” Gauff tells Forbes, that’s where I got the quote, “All of the great athletes and greatest artists have to be a little of craziness and delusion. Having a little bit of crazy in your goal is kind of healthy.” What do you think?
Ray Zinn: Well, again, it’s that syntax. Delusional, in the definition of the word, delusional, is believing something that is not possible. In other words, you say, “Well, I can jump off of the Golden Gate Bridge, and hit the water, and not die.” That’s delusional her. What she’s trying to say is that be a little crazy. Jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge is crazy, okay, especially if you don’t have something to protect you as you hit the water. Being a little crazy, I think she’s just trying to be a little bit obtuse here by referring to that word, delusional, as being something that we should endeavor, because there are people who will not take any risk at all. In other words, you still see people going around with masks on their face after the pandemic because they don’t want to take a risk of catching COVID or they don’t go out in public. They’re so used to staying at home now and staying secluded that they don’t go out at all because they don’t want to take a risk.
Well, that’s a risk in and of itself because now you’re not going to go anywhere. You’re not going to progress, but on the other hand, the pendulum can swing too far, delusional, meaning like Bitcoin or one of those things that is highly risky to me, in my view, that’s a little delusional. Other words, but people have made money on Bitcoin and other ventures, or going to Las Vegas and putting it all on a table. To believe you’re not going to lose any money going to Las Vegas is delusional, but there are people who have made lots of money. Las Vegas wouldn’t exist as an entity if it weren’t for the delusional belief that you can make a lot of money in Las Vegas. That’s a little crazy. But there are people who literally believe that they can make a fortune just by going to Las Vegas.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, a delusional person believes things that couldn’t possibly be true. And I heard you say was that there are also those people who believe that nothing is possible.
Ray Zinn: Right.
Rob Artigo: So they put a wall in front of themselves on everything. But like you said, I prefer that they be a little bit crazy as opposed to saying, “Be delusional.” Because really being delusional is a little bit more towards, go ahead and believe that things that are impossible are possible.
Ray Zinn: [inaudible 00:04:37].
Rob Artigo: Like you said, surviving a dip in a bath of hot lava or something like that.
Ray Zinn: Well, let me ask you, is being crazy, smart? Can you answer that question?
Rob Artigo: No. No, I think being a little crazy in that if you are willing to, if you’re being a creative person and you’re taking some chances, and people would say, “Oh, that’s not going to work, that’s impossible. That’s not going to work.” And then you go, “Well, okay, call me crazy, but I’m going to give it a try.” So that’s the crazy that I’m talking about, and I think it might be the crazy she’s talking about.
Ray Zinn: Well, I know that. Just saying [inaudible 00:05:14] is smart being crazy or crazy being smart?
Rob Artigo: I don’t know. I think I’d have to answer that question, yes or no to the question would be, no, being crazy is not smart.
Ray Zinn: Yeah. So if you look at the definition of being crazy, that’s nuts, okay? We [inaudible 00:05:32] that’s nutty, okay? If you’re being crazy, you’re being nutty. So everybody has their own risk aversion level. And so if you’re a person who is really risk-adverse and you do anything that’s risky, that’s crazy, okay, as a person who’s risk-adverse. So you got to look at your level of risk-averseness and decide how much risk are you willing to take? Are there people who do are crazy and put a little craziness into their investments? Yes, and they do well, but again, you’re gambling. And if you’re a gambler, that’s called being a little crazy as a gambler. That’s what a gambler is. A gambler is a crazy person. And so everybody has to look at their own level of risk-taking and decide if it’s good for them, and if you’re willing to bet the farm, then go for it.
What Coco is referring to is that being a little delusional as opposed to being a non-risk-taker, is what we need to go for. In other words, be willing to take a risk. That’s what she’s talking about. Get off the couch with your potato chips and go do something. Get a little crazy at times. And when I started Micrel back in 1978, all my good friends, and I’ll call them good friends, said, “You’re crazy.” I started Micrel with no money basically, which was a semiconductor company in Silicon Valley. And I started with my own money, but very little money and people said, “You can’t start a company with no money or very little money.” And so that just convinced me that I should, because if they said it can’t be done, that’s what I wanted to do.
Now, was I delusional? In their mind, I was very delusional. In my mind, no, I wasn’t delusional at all. I was confident I could make it happen. And yet in their mind, those friends of mines that looked at what I was trying to do, they were trying to help me and say, “Hey Ray, you’re crazy. You can’t do that. There’s no semiconductor company ever started with no money.” And I said, “Well, I’ll be the first.” So that’s what I did. I started a very successful semiconductor company, virtually no money. [inaudible 00:08:13]-
Rob Artigo: It did very well for a long time.
Ray Zinn: Yeah, well, it’s been sold, but it’s still doing well if you look at the company that acquired it. But again, I wouldn’t be Silicon Valley’s longest serving CEO if I wasn’t a little bit crazy, because I did something that, my friends said, couldn’t be done.
Rob Artigo: Right, crazy’s in the eye of the beholder. The last example is of course, based on the same example you gave, which is Elon Musk and SpaceX. To some people, he’s crazy, some people he’s delusional, but to Elon, he’s a risk-taker, and that risk is apparently paying off quite well because he’s had a lot of… Space-wise, they’ve done some amazing things that are just unbelievable and yet real, and so I guess whether you’re crazy or delusional, depends on the… Crazy, delusional or just a creative person is all in the eye of the beholder.
Ray Zinn: Well, in high school, I ran track and first I was just doing the 100-yard dash, and the broad jump, and that sort of thing, but I decided I was going to try out the hurdles. And my coach said, “You’re crazy. You’re too short. You need to be a taller person to run the hurdles.” So that convinced me that I should run the hurdles. So this was back when I was this teenager and I was very successful. I took fourth in the state in 1955, running the hurdles. And so, yeah, I’m very short. Those of you who know me, I’m not a tall person. And of course it was difficult running the hurdles, especially the high hurdles, because I had to alternate legs, and that means I had to be able to hurdle with either leg, which was very difficult to do, but I was convinced I could do it.
So was I crazy running the hurdles? No, in the sense the word, if I was willing to put forth the effort, like when I started Micrel with no money. I was willing to put forth the effort to be successful. So you might be delusional in other people’s minds, but if you’re willing to put forth the effort, you’re not being delusional. Now, that’s not gambling because gambling you don’t have control over, but if you have control over whatever your pursuit you’re going to have. Whether it be running the hurdles, or trying to get some other education that are difficult to do, or some of their occupation, as long as you have control over it, you’re not delusional.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, as always, our listeners can reach out to you with their questions at toughthingsfirst.com. They can continue their education and the conversation with all the podcasts, the blogs, links to your social media, and of course, there’s information about Tough Things First, the book, and also the series, the Zen of Zinn. Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob. Good to be with you.
The Democrat’s national convention kicked off in 2024 under the constant threat of violence over war in the middle east, but it’s not hard to figure out the motivations. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses why violence can irrupt in politics and what to do about it.
Rob Artigo: There’s something in the news business, when I was a reporter, of course, we called it the news cycle, and this has been one heck of a political news cycle. I think it’s been going on for a couple of years, a lot of stuff with the various riots and things like that that we’ve seen on TV and heard about. This has been the strangest year for politics that I can remember. The president steps down from his campaign for reelection, which is huge. That hasn’t happened since ’68 or something I think thereabouts. And he’s not going to seek a second term. And then somebody attempted to assassinate Donald Trump. And so Tough Things First podcast, it’s not a political show, so we’re not going into politics so much as I thought we’d talk about the idea of political violence, because it can happen on an international level, a national level, local level, even in your office building, that sort of thing. Ray, does it start with words or does it start with actions?
Ray Zinn: Which comes first? The chicken or the egg?
Rob Artigo: Right.
Ray Zinn: Well, it could do both, but mostly starts with words. So almost all violence except for sexual or robbery or something like that, most of all violence, we’ll call it group violence, is related to political. I want what I want and I don’t care what you want type thing. And it’s very self-serving. They figure that the only way they’re going to get their point across is to have a violent reaction to it. There was a fellow that I just met a couple of days ago, actually, he’s with the FBI, and he was sent over to Georgia, which is near Russia, it used to be a Russian state, and when he had assignment over there, and so it was a long flight and he got in late, and he was trying to get it to his hotel and his friend, they couldn’t get very close to the hotel because the political government, I should say government facility, was in between him and the hotel.
And there was a big crowd of rioters there, and the police were firing tear gas and all kinds of stuff. So here he is trying to get to his hotel late at night, dragging his roller bag behind him, and, man, he’s frightened, and even though he is FBI, he sees this angry mob that they’re rioting over just the fact that their country, Georgia, was not doing very well and the government was taking all the money, and the people, the have-nots, as you would, were not being served well by the government, and so they were rioting against the government. And he said he was fearful for his life because they’d looked at him as just like a government official because of the way he was dressed and carrying his roller bag, and so they thought he was, as you would, one of the government people.
And so the police actually had to rescue him because the mob was attacking him. And [inaudible 00:04:12] is like a couple of hundred people attacking one person. And so he said after scary 15, 20 minutes he finally got to his hotel. But anyway, there are no prisoners in violence. They don’t take prisoners. They try to destroy life, as you would, or destroy what people have. So, again, violence, especially political is very detrimental. And the root of it is hatred. And we’ve talked about this before on podcasts is that hatred is at the root of all violence. In other words, if you don’t agree with me, I hate you. And I’ve actually had people tell me that, literally to my face, “If you don’t like what I want or what I say, I hate you.” And they’ve actually used those words. And so whenever we have hate or hatred, then we have violence.
Rob Artigo: Well, yeah, I just heard a story yesterday related to me about how a woman found out one of her young people, one of her kids, if you will… I think it might have been a grandmother and a grandchild, but the young one decided to register for a political party that angered the older person. And I won’t explain the parties, because it doesn’t really matter. The fact is the point still remains is that she was so enraged that she said she would disown that child if they re-registered in this particular political party because it was against their hardest heartfelt beliefs that that they should be doing that. So it’s one of those things where politics can divide families in a way that doesn’t make sense because it’s not very democratic. It’s just like violence, just like groups. If my political beliefs don’t agree with yours, it’s not enough for us to disagree, you have to hate me.
Ray Zinn: Well, it’s not just politics. I’ll say I’ve seen the same thing in religion, I’ve seen people get violent against religions, like the Jews are right now being hit upon, as you would, because of the Palestinian issue in Israel. And that’s a more of a religious thing as opposed to political. It’s not a political problem per se. I guess indirectly it’s political, but it’s more religious. It goes all the way back to the Bible times, and the argument over who owns what land and who has right to what land and so forth. Same thing with the Russians and the Ukrainians, again, it goes back to what their belief is regarding what belongs to them and what doesn’t belong to them. And it’s not political, I guess, as I said, indirectly political. The Ukrainians against the Russians and the Russians against the Ukrainians, or the Israelis against the Islamic terrorist is not, as you would, political so much. It actually goes down religious beliefs, as you would. So violence comes from lots of different sources and not just political parties arguing between themselves. Violence is manifested itself in lots of different ways.
It could be people breaking into stores to steal or to take possession of something that doesn’t belong to them because they feel it’s owed to them or they figure you don’t deserve it, so they’re going to take it and whatever. And so whether it’s wars or violence around the world, or whether it’s between political parties, it can be words, it can be physical, it can be economic, there are lots of different ways that we can have violence, but violence really should have no part in our life. And for our listeners, we would encourage you to love each other as opposed to hate each other. Even if you disagree, don’t be disagreeable. Maybe you don’t share the same feelings, but don’t become violent about it. Just let it go. Because everybody has a right to their own beliefs and opinions.
And maybe you don’t even agree to what we’re talking about on this podcast, but don’t manifest itself with violence or anger or whatever. Just let it go. And that’s the key to this podcast is that we have to get along even though we disagree with each other. Don’t be disagreeable, just disagree and let it go at that.
Rob Artigo: This is a fast-growing podcast rated one of the top in Silicon Valley. We’d like it to keep it that way, so why don’t you give us a rating on your favorite podcast platform. Please also check out Ray’s books, the Zen of Zinn series one, two, and three, and, of course, Tough Things First, his first book. We look forward to the next time, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you.
“Loud quitting” is just foolish, but smart career moves can be a ladder to job satisfaction and success. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn talks about how changing jobs is a skill in itself, and future employers will follow the trail. Will it send a good or bad message? (Watch Video Podcast Here…)
Rob Artigo: Well Ray, when I was a reporter in Reno, I got to know a guy named Kenny Guinn. He was the governor of Nevada. He was also a very wealthy businessman. I was talking to him and I told him that I was looking at a possible job offer in Fresno, and he did this very… I remember this vividly. He put his arm on my shoulder and he said, “If it’s a step up, take it,” and I didn’t take the job because it was really a step sideways. Fresno to Reno is really a step sideways, at least in radio it’s a step sideways. So I didn’t take it and I’ve always appreciated that advice, because it changed… It kept me on course for success in radio.
So Ray, for starters, let me just ask you, when do we know when it’s the right time to make a good career move?
Ray Zinn: Well, there are three reasons why we change jobs. One is, as you talked about, a step up to get a promotion, to get more pay or some advancement reason. The second is because you don’t like the job, you don’t like the company, you don’t like your boss. There’s a “don’t like” problem. That’s number two. Number three is is you want to relocate. In other words, you want to stay… Instead of living in Fresno or Sacramento, you want to live in Chicago.
So those are the three reasons. The advancement, it’s a “don’t like” situation where you don’t like the boss, company. Maybe you don’t like where you live either, but anyway. Then the third of course is that you want to change locations. Sometimes it’s because you want to be closer to family or because educationally it’s more advantageous to be at a certain area because of the schools you want to attend. So those are the three reasons why you want to change your occupation.
Rob Artigo: I would imagine you want to relocate because of the weather sometimes, and here in California it’s pretty hot.
Let’s bring in Zen of Zinn III. It’s one of your books, it’s part of your… This Zen of Zinn III is the third book in your series, Zen of Zinn, which has a bunch of nice short writings in it, and it’s an entire book that covers a bunch different topics, but a lot of wisdom in there.
Check out the bottom of page 25. It says, “Changing jobs can be both a benefit and a hindrance. If you’re considering changing employers, consider the following,” and there’s two points here on the next page. “Point one, don’t be a chain job changer. Changing jobs every couple of years is viewed negatively,” and also number two, “Don’t make a move unless the total compensation is at least 20% more than you are currently making.” It’s easy for me to say.
Ray, so let’s check out number one here. Tell me about being a chain job changer, and you as an employer and a person who has hired a lot of people in your lifetime, tell us how that negatively impacts a person’s resume and their potential employment with you.
Ray Zinn: Well, looking at it from the employer’s point of view, it’s expensive to train a person. Also, there’s an adjustment period where they have to get adjusted to the new job, the new area, and that’s a distraction. So if you’re a chain job changer, then that means that you’re going to be an expensive employee, because the company’s going to have to spend a lot of time and money training.
They say in war that don’t kill your enemy, wound them, it takes two to carry him off the field. So a chain job changer is like a wounded soldier. It takes people to help bring him on board, to train him, to get accustomed to the new software, the new… Just everything’s new, and so a chain job changer, I know it’s like Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers, whatever.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, right.
Ray Zinn: Like that, it’s hard to say “chain job changer,” but it’s an expensive thing for an employer, and it also, probably more importantly, it shows you’re not loyal. Companies like loyal employees, and so loyalty is an extremely important attribute for employees.
We had the lowest turnover in our industry at Micrel, the company that I founded and ran for 37 years, and the reason we were so efficient was because we hired steady employees, people who are solid, people who are not chain job changers.
So anyway, that’s the key. The key is show your loyalty, show that you’re willing to work with your supervisor or the company, because there’d be good times, there’d be bad times, and so we like loyal employees.
Rob Artigo: Well, number two, here is a financial question and you put a number on it. You say 20%. You say, “Make sure that if you’re moving for more money, moving jobs for more money, make sure that it’s 20% more than you’re currently making.”
Ray Zinn: Yes, because again, moving for a small amount of money, unless of course you don’t like your boss or you said “don’t like” problem, don’t like where you live, moving for a small amount of money doesn’t look good to an employer, because it does go back to what I talked about earlier, about your loyalty, so just moving to be moving, moving straight across for the same amount of money, is a warning shot to the employer that you could be a problem employee.
So if you’re going to move, make sure you move for quite a bit more money, at least 20%, because again, you’re probably not going to get a raise at your new company for at least a year, and unless you timed it right when you left your old company, you could be a year or two years before you get another wage increase, and so don’t move for just five or 10%. Make it worthwhile, and that’s why I put that 20% figure in there, because that’s a more reasonable number if you’re going to consider changing jobs.
And there’s a risk in changing jobs for you as an individual, as an employee, because you may not be able to perform at that level, at what you need to get a bigger pay increase, and so you want to make sure that you have enough pay change to make it worthwhile for yourself.
Rob Artigo: And there are other considerations. Like you said, if you’re going to move to relocate for whatever reason, if you just want to… Maybe you want to live in Austin or you want to live somewhere in Montana or something like that, you can… Really you have to look at the expense of making that move and how much that’ll affect what the number actually pencils out to be, because if it’s 20% more and you end up paying that into just moving expenses, then that’s a balance.
Ray Zinn: Yeah, you have state taxes to worry about. Some states charge more income tax than other states, and so you got to make sure you take that into consideration. The cost of housing, you got to make sure you take that into consideration, and just cost of living in general, and so if you’re going from, let’s say, California to Montana, the cost of living is quite a bit less in Montana, so therefore you could take a flat pay increase because you’re going to make it up in the cost of living, or if you’re moving from Montana to California, then you got to look at a significant cost of living increase. It’s like 15, 20% higher in California than it is in Montana, so you got to make sure that you do cover that change in cost of living.
Rob Artigo: Well, we’ll wrap it up by talking about this. I just heard the other day or read the other day, that quiet quitting 2.0 is coming back, and obviously this means that people have decided to change jobs just to change jobs, and I imagine that what you have heard about quiet quitting the first time didn’t bode well for employees, and it probably won’t the next time.
Ray Zinn: Exactly. So loyalty, dependability, responsibility, accountability, all those things are good attributes to have as an employee, and of course, if I’m talking to employers, make sure the people you hire have those attributes of responsibility, accountability, dependability, loyalty, all those things that go to make a good employee.
Rob Artigo: Thanks Ray. This is a special edition of the Tough Things First podcast, and we really appreciate you joining the conversation with us here. At toughthingsfirst.com your questions and comments are always welcome at the website. You can follow Ray Zinn on Twitter, also known as X obviously, Facebook, LinkedIn, and of course, Ray’s books are available.
Tough Things First, and as you’ve seen and heard today, you saw Zen of Zinn III, but we also have Zen of Zinn I and II. You won’t regret picking up those books. Thank you, Ray for another great podcast.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.
Did you know stealing a pen from your employer is embezzlement? It might not seem like a big deal, but what it says about you IS a big deal. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses ethics and how little things become big things that create a negative workplace culture.
Rob Artigo: Ray, interpersonal communications, which obviously we’re doing here, expense reports, travel expenses, these are things most business people deal with, so let’s talk about handling ethical decisions at the ground level, in other words, where we’re penciling in mileage and things like that. I mean, when we’re making decisions at the ground level where we’re displaying ethics and where those ethics may come from in the course of your life and business life. I found this definition on the Santa Clara University Website on ethics. It says, “Ethics refers to well-founded standards of right and wrong that prescribe what humans ought to do, usually in terms of rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness or specific virtues.” Do you agree with that particular definition?
Ray Zinn: Absolutely. I mean, I define ethics as doing what’s right when no one’s watching.
Ray Zinn Cont:I call it the paperclip syndrome. In other words, if you start stealing paperclips at work it’ll go on from there. Then it’s pencils, and then it goes on to thumb drives, and maybe other office equipment. And then, cheating at that root level, that it grows into something big. Everything starts small and then grows bigger, and so what you want to do is not even, as I call it the paperclip syndrome, don’t even consider even taking paperclips at work. As I said, it starts small.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, I’ve seen in job interviews where one of the questions is usually asked is have you stolen from any previous employer? And sometimes people will say, “Well, maybe I’ve taken a pen home.” Or they’ll suggest, “Haven’t you even just taken a pen home?” And they get down to just that kind of thing because I suppose they’re looking to see if you have a tendency to abscond with even the smallest items because that’s blow back on the bottom line.
Ray Zinn: Yeah. As I’ve called it, the paperclip syndrome, where if you just say, “Well, it’s just a paperclip, it’s only worth a couple pennies,” then it goes from there. We want to avoid even the appearance of dishonesty and, as I said, honesty or integrity and ethics is doing what’s right when no one’s watching. If people are watching, that’s one thing, that’s why we have cameras around and other surveillance devices to let people know, “Hey, we’re watching you,” but you should do what’s right when no one’s watching.
Rob Artigo: Right. And if we can do this by our own upbringing, what we’re used to and what we believe our real human standards are or we can rely on those forces in our workplace, for example, that set the tone. Is there a combination of those things that we should think about the most? Is it more going to be something that’s built in us or is it something that the company can do to obligate the employees to pay attention to ethics?
Ray Zinn: Let’s talk about that because, at the company level, if the employees feel the company is dishonest then they don’t have a problem taking and doing dishonest things at the company, and so it stems from the top. In other words, if the CEO or the president or managers and so forth, if they’re being dishonest their employees will end up being dishonest because monkey see, monkey do, as they say. The ethics of a company really start at the top and if you’re ethical, then as a leader, then it’s more likely your employees will be ethical. I like this TV program called American Greed and I see all kinds of things that take place that I was astounded with.
Just taking the Boeing 737 Max, and this issue about Boeing trying to save money and minimizing safety of the equipment and the product that they’re making, and that was on American Greed. Of course, some people lost their jobs over that but greed can even be at the highest level. Boeing is a huge company, and when you get your toe hold and trying to do some dishonest things then big things happen, people lose their lives and people lose fortunes. I’m not here promoting American Greed, I’m just saying is I see a lot of that dishonesty and unethical standards when I watch that program and see what these people are willing to do.
Rob Artigo: But if you use programs like that and just the stories in general about ethical lapses, if you will, then you’re going to learn something from that, and you can walk away from that with something in your toolbox to handle it.
Ray Zinn: Yep. Yeah, I mean, well, it’s just interesting. I guess I must have lived a very sheltered life because it’s always been … I’m the oldest of 11 children and it’s always been taught to us as children growing up how important honesty and integrity is. That’s something that I’ve had to deal with since I’ve been a child, being the oldest of 11, and setting the example for the rest of my siblings, so it is a concern in this country. After I said, watching this program called American Greed, I didn’t realize how prevalent it was but it’s incredible what people will do for money or for fame or fortune or whatever. It starts with little things. Just the smallest little dishonest task then leads to the next one and next one and so forth.
It’s kind of like pornography, it takes root, and it takes hold, and then pretty soon you’re stuck, then it goes on from there. Or drugs, same thing with drugs. Start off with a small drug and then pretty soon you just need more and more and more to satisfy your habit, and same thing with ethics. One little, small unethical action leads to more, and more, and more, and more until you find yourself in prison.
Rob Artigo: It’s interesting, I just watched an episode of Colombo, and I used to watch that show all the time, I probably watched that whole series a couple of times. But Colombo, of course, is a LA police detective who gets involved in these really intricate investigations, always involving a murder that takes place at the start of the show. And then, if you watch the show carefully, you look at usually that the motive at least begins with some aspect of ethical lapses on the part of the murderer, that they started with certain things that they were doing behind the scenes and they were going to get caught, and so they had to do some other action to cover up those ethical lapses. It’s just an example of how things can, even in fiction, they can snowball on you really fast and take one small ethical lapse and turn it into something that can ruin your life.
Ray Zinn: Well, honesty breeds honesty and dishonesty breeds dishonesty so that’s just the bottom line. Good brings on good and bad brings on bad. We can just leave it there.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, as always, the folks listening to us right now can reach out to you with their questions at toughthingsfirst.com. They can continue their education and, of course, the conversation with all the podcasts, blogs, and links to information about blogs, links to information about Ray’s books, Tough Things First, and The Zen of Zen Series, One, Two, and Three. Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.
Depending on who you listen too, a recession is either already here or just around the corner. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn, who led a major tech company through good times and bad, discusses options for making your personal finances just as resilient.
Rob Artigo: Ray, I don’t think it’s a stretch, I really don’t, that far too many people have not saved enough money. Would you agree with that?
Ray Zinn: Uh-huh. For sure.
Rob Artigo: I figured there must be a few ideas that you have about things people can do to be more proactive, whether early on in life or now depending on whatever stage in life they are, looking at having to save money. If you’re starting early, starting late, there has to be some common sense ways to work things out. Can you start with a few ideas?
Ray Zinn: Well, it’s a good topic. Because of high inflation that we’re experiencing right now, people are hurting, and they’re having to dig into their 401s or having to dig into their other savings or selling off some of their investments. You never know, maybe a calamity, medical problem, or some family issue or some crisis around your community or home. A savings account is absolute, absolute necessity. You need a buffer, and that’s what the purpose of 401k, that’s why they came out, is to encourage the government and wants to encourage people to save money, because otherwise, we fall back on the government to save our bacon. Emergency will happen.
Ray Zinn Cont:If you’ve lived long enough, you know that not everything is peachy keen and roses. There are going to be some kind of a calamity. Something’s going to happen, and we’ve experienced it over the last three or four years with this high inflation, and that’s just really eaten into our income, as you would, or our buffer. People are having to rely now either on family, on their savings. Somewhere, they’re having to dig up money that they weren’t expecting to have to dig up just to survive.
Rob Artigo: I heard you talking about the debt. The country’s facing debt, and debt is increasing among households because of these various reasons in the economy. And debt costs money, and anything that costs money is obviously a detriment on savings. So I know you’re not a fan in business or in personal life of borrowing money, because it costs money, right?
Ray Zinn: Well, and the interest rate’s so high now, comparatively high than it was a few years ago. So again, cost of money has gone up, and it’s just really hurting a lot of people. I have a lot of friends who are really suffering now because of just what we’ve experienced over the last few years. So putting together a savings account is extremely important. So let’s talk about why or how I should say how do we do it. And as a young college graduate and just getting married, my wife and I decided that we were going to live only on a portion of the income that we made. So we set this rule that we would never spend more than 75% of what we earned, and that gave us 25% to stock away for a rainy day, as you would. And so never live at or above your means.
So you have to have a disciplined life. It’s tempting out there to buy that new car or to buy that fancy gimmick or whatever, gizmo. And so you just got to restrain yourself, take a deep breath and live on 75% of what you make. And it breaks down this way, like 50% for a living, the essentials, what we call the non-discretionary income, things like food, rent, that sort of thing, and then discretionary, that’s another 10 to 20% you could have for entertainment or just on things like TVs or what we refer to as non-essentials, but never exceed 75 to 80% of what you make. Just make a commitment. Just cross your heart and hope to die, stick a needle in your eye, you just got to live on 75% of your income. That’s the first thing. You can’t save what you don’t have, so you have to save it. And saving it is the key to having a savings account, and we’re back to what we said a minute ago. Make a commitment that you will not live on more than 75% of your income.
Rob Artigo: Is this something you can teach your kids early, and get them starting to save? I haven’t seen a piggy bank in a long time, but I imagine it’s never really too early to teach them the principle of saving something of every dollar that you earn.
Ray Zinn: Well, you’re example. As a parent, you’re an example. And so if your family, your children, your friends or whatever, if they see you living high on the hog as you would, high on the hog meaning you’re living at or above your income level and living on debt, as you would, you’re sending a bad example. My children have always seen me. My wife and I live on substantially less than what we earn, and we’ve always done that since we’ve been married, and we kept a budget. We have very, very strict budget. Once a month we sat down and reviewed our expenses and what we were able to put away for savings.
So I can truly say this, I’ve been married for 63 years, and I can truly say that I’ve always had a savings account. My wife and I have always had a savings account since day one. And so I’ve had too many family examples of going way beyond what you can afford, and that’s the challenge is living well within your means, and that’s what we have to set up as a golden rule. Just don’t exceed what you earn. And then of course, you want to have that 25 to 20, 25%, put a sock away for a rainy day, as they say.
Rob Artigo: Is it ever too late to start?
Ray Zinn: No
Rob Artigo: Making it a habit?
Ray Zinn: No, no, no. Good habits are easy to break, bad habits are easy to start. So the bad habit, of course, is when we talked about living beyond your means. The good habit, of course, is living within your means, well within your means so that you have some excess income that you can sock away for that rainy day.
Rob Artigo: You mentioned having a savings account, and I think we’ll end with this, but we have a 401k or we have a Roth IRA or IRA or an investment account, something like that. But you have a savings account, which is strictly cash, and usually not a great interest rate. I think I got a penny worth of interest a while back. It was kind of funny. I just thought, “Wow, that’s really not worth it.” But there is a lot to be said about taking a portion of your money and just putting it in a savings account, and then you have cash there, even though it’s not generating a whole bunch of money.
Ray Zinn: What I meant was, by savings, was not a savings account per se, but savings meaning money that you’re holding back from spending. Let’s put it this way. A savings is money that you’re holding back and not spending on either essential or non-essential items. So savings could be a 401k, it could be an IRA, it could be a mutual fund. Again, keep it simple, stupid, as they say, KISS principle, don’t get carried away, don’t get too risky and invest in Bitcoin or whatever. Put your money where you know you’ve got some security, it’s not high-risk. If you’ve got a substantial saving, let’s say you’re living on 25, 30% of what your income is, it’s okay to take a risk if you want to risk a portion of that money that you’re socking away, but make sure that risk matches what you can afford, what you can actually survive on, as you would.
So again, keep it simple. Don’t get too carried away with some really, I hate to use the term Bitcoin-type things, but the higher risk investments, because that’s like having no money as you would. Because the risk is too high you run the risk of losing all that money that your saving for a rainy day.
The question is what has more value, the price of an education or work experience? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn says one has an edge over the other. He’ll explain why smart choices will help you navigate these life decisions.
Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, your guest host for this edition of the Tough Thanks First podcast. I’m a writer and former radio personality. Here with me once again is Ray Zinn, the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley history. Hi Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hello Rob. Good to be with you again today.
Rob Artigo: Sure. I located a Pew research study that was recent, I think within the last week or two that it came out and it showed that only 22% of 5,200 college grads that were surveyed said that college is worth the cost if a student must take on debt. That’s only 22%. 47% said a four-year degree is worth it only if a student doesn’t have to take on loans and that leaves 29% of respondents who said college isn’t worth it no matter what. If you have debt or loans or whatever, it’s just not worth it.
Rob Artigo Cont:And obviously student debt has been in the news for the last year or more because of the Biden administration saying they were going to forgive some of the aspects of it. I think the forgiving interest on some of those loans, and I don’t know if people are too happy about that. You wrote me something recently on this and one of your musings that’ll make its way into print, I’m sure eventually.
Let’s start with that and I’ll bring in some of what you wrote a little bit later on, but let’s start with what do you think? I know that based on what you wrote, that obviously some jobs need a degree. I don’t know if matters for everybody, but it does for certain degrees and you think that that’s really the key question here is do you need it?
Ray Zinn: The cost of education is very expensive. You figure that depending upon where you go to school, it can cost anywhere from say, let’s say a two year, four year, six year, eight year. It’s going to cost around 20,000 a year just to go to school minimum. And then you have to live and you got to somehow to survive in the meantime. And so you got to figure out how long it’s going to take me to recoup that investment.
So if you’re a two year, you’re into it for 40 grand, you’re a four year, of course that’s 80,000 and could be going to a very expensive school that could run to quarter million dollars or even higher. So you got to do the math and decide is that degree really worth it? Meaning am I going to recoup my investment? So if you make something free where it doesn’t cost anything, then it doesn’t mean anything. And so as they say, no pain, no gain. If what you’re doing, you don’t have to pay for it, what good is it? There’s no value in something that doesn’t cost anything. You have to pay for something just to feel you’re contributing as you would.
Now, having all that said, going to school just for the sake of going to school is really a waste of time and money. Even though you’re young, you’re maybe you’re 18, 19 and you think, hey, you’re never going to die. Guess again. You will at some point. You’re going to have to pay for that expense as you would. And so the important thing is to, if you want to maximize on that education, maximize on the expense of that education, then you should know or at least figure out what kind of career you want to have.
Whether you want to be a hairdresser, whether you want to be a lawyer, or whether you be a doctor or construction worker, go to the school or get the education that you need for that particular occupation. Most occupations would say the majority of the occupations do not require a college education. They require experience, but they don’t require an education. Education unlocks the door. It’s experience that will help you succeed. So experience is actually more important than the education. So the education one would say unlocks the door, you’ll usually get paid more money. A person with a degree generally, generally I say gets paid more money, but then that money, that extra money you’re going to get because you have a degree should offset the cost of your education.
If your parents are paying for it or if the government’s paying for it or the military’s paying, whatever. If it’s all free, you don’t have to pay for it. Then you’re going to be less concerned about what kind of education you’re going to get. I know this sounds strange, but you should look forward to paying for your education yourself, not relying on your parents or relying on someone else to pay for your education. The best stories you hear are people who said they had to work as a dishwasher or work at a restaurant, or they had work in cleaning up the buildings or whatever to pay for their education.
I worked for my education, I worked and went to school. I didn’t get a freebie education. And so even if your parents are paying for it, you’re less likely to treat that as a valuable resource than if you have to pay for it yourself. Of course, if the government pays for it, that’s even worse. And so if there’s no pain, there’s going to be no gain, and so be scrupulous about what kind of a career you want, where you want to live. If you want to live in Washington DC then politics is probably the more prevalent education you’d want. Or if you’re going to work in a health industry, you’re going to work around some major hospitals and if you’re going to live in a rural area in the country, maybe you want to learn how to be a farmer or something or in construction.
So depending upon where you want to live, how you want to live, what you want to glean from the time you’re going to be spending learning, make sure it matches what your objectives are. We talked in one podcast about having clear goals and way points and knowing where you’re headed so you don’t just go in circles. The best thing to do is to really make a stab at really what kind of career you want, where do you want to live, how do you want to live? And then let that guide what kind of education that you want to have.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, I’m looking at these interest rates that if you had a new loan from a college since July of 2023 through next month, 2024, new loan that started. The fixed interest rate is, depending on undergraduate, graduate, and professional, and then parents and graduate or professional students. And some of these are subsidized loans and some of them aren’t. Apparently if it’s a subsidized loan, they don’t have to pay interest while they’re in school, but then it accumulates afterwards. But these percentages are five and a half percent, 7.05%, and 8.05%, which is a significant number if you end up talking a hundred thousand dollars or something like that. That’s a lot to have to deal with.
But at the same time, have you noticed there are certain things that you, classes you have to take if you go to the school, you have to, and most of them are social engineering type classes. They don’t say, “Hey, look, we’re going to give you a class that tells you exactly what to expect from a student loan.” So that they go into it eyes wide open. They mostly go into it completely ignorant and probably accumulate most of their debt in the first two years.
Ray Zinn: Yeah, not to beat a dead horse, but an education is only worth it if it helps you through life. If it helps you live where you want to live and how you want to live, then that’s how you should measure the value of your education. So going to school for the sake of going to school is a dumb way to do it. Just to say you have a college degree is not going to help you live a better life.
As I said earlier, getting an education opens doors, but experience is the one that’ll help you succeed. In other words, you can get the best education in the world, but if you don’t have the experience to go along with it, you’re not going to do very well. So again, education just opens the door. It’s the experience that you’re going to gain from that education that’s going to help you succeed.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. There’s also a loan fee when you take out your first loan. Let’s say it’s a $20,000 loan, I don’t know how much the amounts are, but let’s say it’s $20,000 and when you get the loan, you’re not going to get $20,000. It’s going to be minus 1% or thereabouts because they take a fee right off the top, which is, I mean, people just don’t understand what they’re doing to themselves. And like I said, it has to be worth it.
Well, Ray, our listeners can join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com and if they have questions or comments, they can also reach out to you there at toughthingsfirst.com, and you can follow Ray on X on Facebook and LinkedIn and of course, pick up Ray’s books. Tough Things First, and the Zen of Zinn one, two, and three. Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.
Running in circles pushing a cart full of goals will lead to two things. Exhaustion and a cart full of unfulfilled goals. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explores the difference between action for action’s sake and action with purpose. (Watch the Video Podcast here.)
Rob Artigo: Rob Artigo here, once again your host for this edition of The Tough Things First podcast, a special edition of the Tough Things First podcast. If you are listening to this and you’d like to watch it on video, we have it on Ray’s YouTube channel. And the link is right next to the intro for this at toughthingsfirst.com, so it is available to you. We try to do at least once a month. And it’s a great opportunity to see what we look like because we’re very handsome gentlemen. I’m an entrepreneur in California. Also, you may remember me as a radio broadcaster. I was at KGO in San Francisco, Seattle, and also in Sacramento I was a journalist on the air.
And Ray, it’s always great to be back here at Tough Things First to do another podcast with you. Ready for one?
Ray Zinn: You bet. Thank you, Rob. Good to be with you again.
Rob Artigo: And again to remind people, it is a video podcast so you can watch it if you want.
Well, Ray, I grabbed your book and here it is right here, one of your books. This is Zen of Zinn 3. This is the third iteration of Zen of Zinn. And you describe it as being a series of Ray Zinn original Proverbs, right? Isn’t that how you describe it?
Ray Zinn: Yeah, it’s like the thought for the day, how you can improve your life.
Rob Artigo: Well, I went through and I picked one out. And there is, and I’ll show people, there’s, this one’s illustrated. You can see pictures. And there’s also several of these sayings and proverbs that are on here on each page. So I picked out one on page 35 here that talks about, “Studies show that without clear goals and specific landmarks, we just walk in circles.” And I’ll read a little bit more of what that said, I’ve got here on my screen. It says, “While walking in circles may seem like we’re making progress, we’re obviously not. And if you want to not walk in circles,” it’s a little paraphrase there, “If you don’t want to walk in circles, you want to have clearly defined goals and specific landmarks to keep you moving in the direction you want to go.”
So let’s talk about clear goals for starters. To you, what is a clear goal compared to a goal that does not quite reach the level of the clarity that you’re thinking of?
Ray Zinn: Okay, well, it kind of goes to another podcast that we’re going to do. It’s like knowing what you want to do for a career and why you’re attending school, whether it be high school, or college, or advanced education. If you don’t know what you want to do for a career, you’re more likely to take the wrong classes or not get the most benefit from your education. And it’s hard to have a clear goal when you’re 17 or 18 years old, but the better you can define where you want to head in life, the less the reacting or circling you’re going to be doing as you progress. Because it’s the first five or six years of your formative life after high school as you would that really define who you are. And so you want to make sure that you have at least to some degree, an idea of really what kind of a career, where do you want to head? Where do you want to go?
I know that some people are spontaneous and they just go in whatever direction and they just live their life that way. It’s a little chaotic. There’s no rhyme or reason to do what they do or how they do it. They just go. And I have a friend who’s had seven different occupations in his life. He worked in construction, he was a plumber, he was an electrician, he was a salesperson. I mean, he just kicked around. Now, that may be where you want to be. Maybe you just want to kick around. Maybe you don’t have any clear direction in your life, but if you want to make the most of your life where you can definitely say that you’re on the right path, the path that you want, what we say right being right for you, then you need to think clearly what kind of education or experience you need, both education and experience are necessary to succeed.
So the earlier you can define that, the better off you’re going to be, so you won’t be walking in circles or having to just go from pillar to post as you would. So think through or be able to define where you’d like to go, where you’d like to be in 10 years, and then draft a plan to help you get there. So I know people that are in their fifties that still haven’t got a clear understanding of what they want to do, and so they think as long as they’re putting food on the table and paying their rent, that’s good enough. And fine, if that works for you, then that’s fine. Then you’re not walking in circles, you’re just walking. Maybe you’re not going any particular direction, but you’re just moving along. And unfortunately too many of us spend too much time just walking in circles or just walking without a specific landmark or goal in mind.
So think through clearly. Maybe you talk to your parents, maybe you talk to your friends, maybe you talk to your schoolmates, whatever. Get input from them. Ask them. There are studies that are done that you can look online and find out where you’d like to live because where you’d like to live also defines what kind of a career you’re going to have, or the career that you’ll need. So think it through. Don’t hesitate to ask questions and get other people’s thought. Look online. There’s lots of information, YouTube videos for different occupations. And so we don’t know what’s right for you, but you should, and determine that early on so that you’re not just walking in circles.
Rob Artigo: You mentioned a friend of yours who is in his fifties and still operating that way. So you correctly identified college as one of the obvious goals you have to get into because this affects, and another podcast we’re going to do, talk about money that we spend on education and where it’s worth it. I mean, if you’re walking in circles in an academic environment, you could be burning a lot of funds.
But in other areas of our lives, in businesses that we start, in career paths we choose within a corporate structure or whatever we decide we want to do, those goals are important in those times as well. Correct?
Ray Zinn: Although the person I was referring to was an individual who went to dental school and then he didn’t like being down in the mouth as they say, and so he went and got a law degree and started practicing law. So that’s a huge waste of money and cost to start off in one thing and end up in another. So I can’t imagine the amount time, and energy, and money he spent getting that dental degree, DDS, only to end up as a lawyer. And so we got to define what we want, when we want it, and if we want to make the most efficient use of our resources, then we need to understand really what makes us happy. What do we want to do? What kind of career path do we want to have that’s going to lead us in the direction that’s going to help us be more successful?
Rob Artigo:
Yeah, I know that landmarks are those way stations in between the goal and the starting point. So when we look at, when we consider landmarks, when we have that goal in mind, how do we identify the specific landmarks that we should maybe put on a calendar or write it down, that we indicate. Okay, so the near term goal, sometimes, in my experience, identifying the goal is important and has to be clear like you’ve already described, but looking at say the four-year degree or then going on to getting a higher degree later on, and you might be in six years of college and beyond that, who knows depending on the level of study that you’re going for, but that seems insurmountable. If you think about, oh wow, that goal is down there. How far do I have to go? But the nearer term goals, if you take them into pieces, you might have a better chance of recognizing that it’s doable and it’s something that you can succeed doing.
Ray Zinn: Well, again, the whole purpose of landmarks is to give you some way points to guide you in the direction you want to go, whether it be marriage, whether it be family, whether it be where you want to live, define those landmarks or those way points and see that you’re on that path, that journey that will bring you the most happiness and success.
Rob Artigo: Well, I also know that the idea that you have to be somewhat flexible has to be part of your plan. I’m assuming based on my experience talking to you, but also knowing about your career and your successes with Micrel and other areas of the tech world that you have to be flexible, and you can make those goals and you can make those landmarks, but you have to think of them as not etched in stone in the sense that you can’t pivot if you have to. Am I correct in that?
Ray Zinn: Well, there’s a proverb, blessed are the flexible, for they shall not be bent out of shape. Flexibility is important. And again, it depends upon where you want to live. You want to live in Alaska. That’s a different set of way points and guidelines that you need to do that. Or if you want to live in Mexico, or in Europe, or wherever it is that you want to end up with your career, that defines also what kind of family, what kind of life and education that you’ll need. So again, being flexible is important.
I was very fortunate, I mean, coming out of school at the age of 21, or 22, maybe I guess I was. Yeah, 23 I guess. Then I just really didn’t know exactly what I wanted to do because we didn’t have YouTube and all the other great studies that are available to us online back when I grew up. And so I had to talk to my neighbors, my friends, and get an idea of really what kind of a career did I want?
I actually started out in the aerospace area and ended up in semiconductors because I was flexible, meaning semiconductors was a brand new field and that interested me, and thank goodness my education somewhat matched both those fields, aerospace and semiconductors. And I did well on both of them, but my true love or my final love was semiconductors.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, I want to remind our listeners that this is a special edition of the Tough Things First podcast. We’re doing it on video, available on your YouTube channel, Ray Zinn, and also by going to the website and finding podcasts, and clicking on the link that’s next to the intro for this podcast. And of course you’ll be able to find it because it refers to… And I’ll give you the title of it so people will know. Basically, Circular Action is Not Action is the topic here.
Ray, as always, our listeners can reach out to you at toughthingsfirst.com, continue their education, which as you’ve heard in this podcast, not only are goals important and those way points along the way that you have to be thinking about, but your education also. And it goes on and on. And you can get that here at toughthingsfirst.com and in the Tough Things First podcast.
Ray, you have your books. You have Tough Things First, your first book, and then you have Zen of Zinn 1, 2, and 3, which you’ve obviously heard an excerpt of that here in this podcast.
So great podcast, Ray. Thanks a lot.
Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.
Good or bad, a rise in wages results in reaction. The earner may first have more money, but prices follow and can wipe-out the gains. In this Tough Things First reality check, Ray Zinn explores a game that is less than zero sum when it’s forced.
Rob Artigo: We once talked about kiosks. What we were talking about was technology. I think we were talking about robots being used in restaurants and we talked about kiosks. And I was adamant, I felt like they were impersonal and that they would end up backfiring on businesses. And in California here where I’m at right now, you have house here, $20 minimum wage that went into effect here in California has made the proliferation of kiosks grow also by leaps and bounds. Cash registers are literally having signs hanged on them at fast food restaurants where they just said, “Please use the kiosk,” and they have no person operating the cash register anymore, you have to use the kiosk because they don’t want to pay somebody to work there. Employees at the counters are really becoming a thing of the past. You walk into a place and there’s nobody standing there.
Rob Artigo cont: They only walk up and hand you your food, and there isn’t really any interaction. The most interaction you get is if you go through the drive-through. I am out in the field doing work all the time, so I end up going through and getting snacks and things like that or light lunches in fast food as much as I can do that by going through the drive-through. And I noticed that some places are using AI voices to take orders. So they don’t even have a person that’s talking to you and creating a relationship. If I find out that it’s an AI voice, I feel like I don’t have to be courteous to it. It’s like I don’t have to say hi or “How’s your day?” or whatever.
Let’s go into this conversation by… Let me ask you the big question. Did the high minimum wage in California just erase a bunch of what used to be called entry level jobs?
Ray Zinn: It will. There’s no question. We know that from listening to some of the new stories from these different fast food places like McDonald’s and Burger King and Taco Bell and so forth. Yes, it will definitely impact not only our relationship with that particular vendor, but also our relationship with other people. So now when we got caller ID on our phones and it tells us who’s calling, if it’s just a robot voice as you would or an AI voice, I just hang up because I’m not dealing with a real person. And so I don’t feel any obligation to sit and listen to their spiel. I will not listen to a robot voice. And maybe I’ll have to get used to it because if that’s all there is, if there’s no longer that human interaction, then how do I chew out somebody that’s not really there as you would? No, I think it’s going to cause a big problem. I mean, this whole thing about reducing human interaction I think is harmful, in my mind.
Rob Artigo: I noticed that really just in the last few hours, really last 24 hours or so, that California healthcare workers will get their bump in their paycheck too. It goes to $25 an hour minimum wage for healthcare workers, and that includes everybody who works in a healthcare facility. So if you’re the maintenance guy or you’re the chief bottle washer or whatever, washing dishes in the cafeteria, you’re getting $25 an hour to work in that environment. Who’s going to pay for that?
Ray Zinn: You guess who, all of us. So in business, roughly 1/3 of the cost of a product is labor. And so if that labor cost goes up, you can rest assured that your price is going to increase 33% based on that increase in cost. We are living in a high inflationary time, even though some of the government officials are saying, “Get used to it, live with it. That’s the way it is,” the give and take as you would, it’s just still hard because most people’s wages aren’t increasing as fast as inflation is.
And companies, by the way, don’t mind inflation because it means more to their bottom line. If you’re, for example, adding 30 or 40% profit to your costs, then if their costs are going up, your bottom line’s going up because you’re just tacking on more profit. And so that’s why, by the way, the stock market’s doing so well right now. We tend to give the government credit for this, is that because inflation’s going up, profits are going up. And so that’s a good news and bad news. We’re dealing in a difficult time. Inflation is okay as long as it’s not out of line. And so unfortunately, inflation has increased so dramatically in the last few years that we can’t adjust to it quick enough. And so it’s a tragedy right now that a lot of lower income people are facing, is that their costs are going up faster than their wages.
Rob Artigo: And some people have said, “Hey, why stop at $20 minimum wage? Why not $30 or $100 an hour if you can just do that?” And also one of the quotes that I remember from Ben Franklin, one of the famous quotes was that… I don’t remember the exact quote, but it’s something along the lines of, “This great experiment of America will die when the people figure out they can vote themselves a raise.”
Ray Zinn: Yeah, that’s true. That’s true, yeah. Well, that’s what the unions are doing. They’re voting themselves a raise. And they do it by, of course, by picketing. Wages should naturally go up to compensate for increasing inflation. It’s just a natural thing. But remember, if it goes up too quickly, then there’s a price to pay just because of trying to trade differences, trade imbalances between countries. If our wages go up dramatically faster than these other countries, that makes it more difficult for foreign trade. Be careful what you wish for as they say.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, I am just looking at a list of some of the negative impacts that either have taken place or are taking place or will take place. Workers who still have jobs in California, and this is specifically the fast food workers, but anyone affected by an arbitrary minimum wage hike, says workers who still have jobs will lose them because now their employers will have more incentive to automate. And apparently, Chipotle, which does the burritos and burrito bowls, have figured out a way to have a robot make their burrito bowls. Obviously, like I said, if you go into a restaurant, there’s nobody operating the cash register. My reaction to that is instantly I go, “There’s your $20 minimum wage job.” A not job, a no job. And people have cut work. El Pollo Loco, which is another brand, I think started in California many years ago, they cut employees wages by 10%. Not wages, their hours by 10%.
Ray Zinn: As I said, be careful what you wish for. I asked my wife if she wanted one of those robot vacuum cleaners and she says, “Well, yeah, if I got one, then what would I do?” And that’s a good point because part of her responsibility is doing some house cleaning. And so we don’t want to end up not having anything to do because then we become more lazy or lazier and we forget how to work, how to get things done. I think we are going a little too fast. Maybe AI is what’s driving it, but certainly there’s a price to pay for too much machine interference as you would.
Rob Artigo: Just think back to when I was getting 3.35 an hour I think is where I started and I started at… And we’ll wrap this up here with this thought, is that the entry level, I was talking about entry level positions. Somebody who’s in high school perhaps would take a job at… I took a job at Wienerschnitzel. I think my first one might’ve been at Kentucky Fried Chicken, and then I went over to Wienerschnitzel, but gave me an opportunity to work and learn how to show up on time for a job and that sort of thing. I didn’t particularly care for working in the fast food industry. I didn’t like the pacing of it and some other issues. But it was an entry level position for me.
When somebody’s working another job, a security guard making $18 an hour goes, “All right, well I’m just going to go to work for McDonald’s and make 20 if I can,” I mean, wouldn’t it behoove a McDonald’s franchise operator, for example, to discriminate more on who they hire and make sure that the quality of that worker is worth 20 bucks an hour? So they have to be able to spell, do math if they happen to interact with anybody that they know how to approach it and be professionals or something. Because you’re not going to expect a teenager to do those things, but you might be able to find somebody who’s a little older and a little bit more mature and somebody who can handle the job for 20 bucks an hour and you’re going, “Hey, look, if I’m going to pay $20 an hour. I want that person to be worth $20 an hour.”
Ray Zinn: Well, it might push more of these youth then to get a better education so that they can get a better job like 30, 40, $50 an hour or $100 an hour. There’s, as I say, Newton’s first law of economics, is [inaudible 00:10:02] actually you have in one direction, you have an equal and opposite in the other. And so there’s a certain leveling that’ll take place over time. It’s just that when it happens too quickly, it becomes problematic. And so let’s do it in moderation as they say.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, I mean everything in moderation and we don’t do that in California. It’s all or nothing. All right, Ray, thank you very much for that conversation. I want to be able to tell the listeners that they can reach out to you if they have questions. They can go to toughthingsfirst.com. They can also offer some comments there. If you have a topic you’d like to have Ray discuss here on Tough Things First, the podcast, well, you can do that. You can drop that note there. We can always continue your education by coming back for the next podcast, reading the material on the podcast, which is blogs and links to information to raise social media, which is out there, and also his books, Get Tough Things First, which is available digitally and also in paperback, and the Zen of Zinn series 1, 2, and 3. Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.
Effective leadership is about being a people person, not about people pleasing. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn wonders if a better understanding of your own leadership style can help you communicate better with different personalities.
Ray Zinn: Hello there, Rob.
Rob Artigo: Your idea was, what kind of leader are you? And I bet the listeners are wondering, how could four colored squares help them understand their leadership style?
I looked into this, and there’s this guy whose name’s Don Lowry, and he developed a system called True Colors. There are a couple of different iterations or versions of this kind of thing out there, and some of this is based on other versions of this. So I’m not saying that this one is the end-all, be-all, but to understand sort of the origins of it, this particular one that we’re using here, Don Lowry developed the system, True Colors, and it uses four primary colors to designate personality types and behavioral styles. And what we want to be able to do is find out what can we glean from that about our leadership styles individually and where the crossover exists.
Rob Artigo Cont: So the colors in the picture that we have on the desktop are blue, red, yellow, and green. But actually, let’s translate that and we’ll just call them orange, gold, blue, and green. And the red will be orange and the yellow will be gold, just to make sure we keep things on track here. So there is obviously a lot more we can cover here, but we just can’t cover it here because it’s just not long enough as a podcast. But it is a personality test, so you can Google it and actually find a test, a version of this, and if you look up the one that is this True Colors, you’ll actually be able to take an online test and figure out where things go. It’s helpful, I think.
If a person’s brightest color is gold, then they tend to be steadfast, loyal, traditional, a rule-follower or a rule-maker, parental, orderly, structured, punctual and precise. And those are some of the things we talked about in a previous podcast. I think this sort of sounds like you, steadfast, loyal, traditional, a rule-follower or a rule-maker, parental type, you’re orderly, you’re structural, you’re punctual, and you’re precise. Would you agree with that assessment? Do you think you’re falling more into the gold category?
Ray Zinn: Well, yeah, I guess. But that’s not the purpose of this podcast. It’s to talk about what kind of a leadership style that we have. Not that any one of them is bad or the other ones are good, it’s just that we need to recognize what kind of a leadership style do we portray. So the ones on the right side of that chart, what we call the hotter colors-
Rob Artigo: Yeah, the blue and the green.
Ray Zinn: On the right side.
Rob Artigo: Oh, I’m sorry, on the right side. I apologize. My dyslexia is getting me.
Ray Zinn: Yeah, so on the right side, those are the hotter colors. We talk about the cool colors tend to be less dramatic, and then the ones on the right are more dramatic and what we call the hotter colors. And so on the right side of the chart, you’re more of an extrovert in personality, whereas on the left, the cooler colors, you’re more of an introvert. And so, as I said, there’s not necessarily any good color or bad color. They’re just colors, and they represent really kind of, in the psychological test that you can take, kind of represent what kind of a leader you are.
And if you recognize the kind of leader you are, that will help you as you lead and direct and manage in your company. Try not to be something you’re not. In other words, if you tend to be more introverted, so you are more cool in the way you view things, then use that to your strength or your advantage. On the other hand, if you’re more of an extrovert, you’re more outgoing, more deliberate in the way you view things, more ones and zeros, as you would, as opposed to the other, which is more in between, more gray area.
So on the left side or the left of the chart, more introverted, you’re more gray. In other words, you don’t view things in black and white, whereas on the right side or the more harsh colors, as you would, you tend to be more black and white, more ones and zeros. That’ll help you as you understand your leadership style. That’ll help you become a better leader.
As I said, I’m going iterate this again, it’s not that one is better than another or one is bad and something is good. It’s just that we need to understand our leadership style so that we can do a better job in influencing those that we’re in charge of supervising.
Rob Artigo: I think you can also see by looking at the various personality types that some of these things carry over. For example, we have green and gold here. You have the introvert on the left and the extrovert on the right, which is the gold color, the hotter color. But they’re both people who emphasize feelings and they’re relationship-oriented. Both the introvert and the extrovert have those shared elements. And what you can learn from looking at the different elements is you can see which color is your dominant color, but you can also see where you have things in common with some of the other categories and really realize that maybe you have a broader base.
Doubt anybody takes this test and finds out that they’re high-scoring in the hot orange or red color and find out that they’re zeros on all the other colors. They’re going to cross over here and there. And it is of value when you’re trying to figure out self-knowledge, which is something that you talk about a lot, and understanding yourself and your leadership style. This is just another tool to do that.
Ray Zinn: The people that you supervise are also one of the color points on that chart. So if you’re dealing with an extrovert, one on the hotter side, that your leadership style should be to understand that and use that to your advantage, and vice versa, on the left side or the cooler side, if that person’s more introverted. You need to understand how they are and what kind of personality they have because it will help you as you manage them and lead them in their responsibilities.
So this is not just a chart for leaders, this is a chart for everyone to understand who we’re dealing with, why we’re dealing with them, having the understanding of their personality. And so, again, if you’re an introvert and you’re supervising an introvert, that makes it easier. But if you’re an extrovert supervising an introvert, or vice versa, if you’re an introvert supervising an extrovert, that’s important for you to understand that because you have to deal with that personality.
Rob Artigo: Right. Yeah. You don’t want to expect the other people to automatically understand your perspective. You have to be able to approach it or tailor your interactions with people so that you can better communicate with them based on their personalities. That’s intel, as they say in the military world, that you understand the people that you’re communicating with have certain personality types, and this is the way to approach them. It just means that you’re approaching it logically.
Ray Zinn: Yeah. The purpose of this podcast is really to have you consider exploring what kind of leader you are and then what kind of people are you leading. So I would encourage you to understand what your personality is and also the personality of the people you’re supervising, and that will help you then become a better leader is that understanding, being kind, gentle, persuasive, and being empathetic is a natural thing for all colors. You don’t have to be obnoxious and dogmatic just because you’re on the extrovert side or the red side, as you would. And nor do you have to be so mamsy-pamsy, “Let them do whatever they want,” if you’re on that left side, more of a liberal, kind of a quiet, liberal type of a view, more introvert-ish.
So it’s good to really understand who you are and understand who they are, and that’ll help you then become a better leader.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, and there are lots of ways of looking at this that help you understand your own personality, but also as your leadership style is, and also understand the people around you because you can make positive adjustments if you just understand the environment you’re working in.
Ray Zinn: Yeah. Being cognizant of their personality and also of your personality will help you as you migrate through this leadership style that you need to have as a leader in your particular organization.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, this is a fast-growing podcast, and listeners are helping us grow by leaps and bounds, one of the top in Silicon Valley as a podcast and we’d like to keep it that way. So our listeners can check into their favorite podcast platform and give us a rating of four or five stars, whatever they are offering. And also, check out Ray’s books, the Zen of Zinn I, II, and III, and of course, Tough Things First. I look forward to the next time, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.
Diversity is a natural course of business. Not just in gender and race, but in thought. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses the key differences between the proverbial left and right brains on the job.
Rob Artigo: Now you’re someone who has run a diverse workplace at Micrel. You’ve ran it for decades, all walks of life it seems. You had men and women working there. You had short people, tall people, I’m assuming people who are a little larger, a little smaller, a little thinner, a little more healthy and a little bit maybe a little bit more lax in their exercise routine. And also the idea that you’re in a creative environment, so you have different ideas and different types of creativity out there. Let’s talk a little bit about personalities here. Some people are conservative and some people are more liberal, and I would say that that manifests itself in politics, but this isn’t really about politics as much as it is about understanding the people who are around you and the differences. The people who are more conservative versus people who are more liberal, give me just some general ideas where you see differences between the personality types.
Ray Zinn: Well, the biggest difference between an individual is conservative versus one who is liberal is that conservatives tend to be more religious and they follow what we refer to as the Mosaic law. That’s the 10 Commandments, which is found in the Torah and the Bible. And the 10 Commandments were the ones that Moses brought down off Sinai and hr had those tablets, and he saw how wicked the people were when he came down and he threw them down. He broke them and smashed them into pieces. And then again, they were reconstituted and they’re basically the rules or the guidelines, laws that most countries legal system is based on is the Mosaic law. Because Moses was in the Torah and the Bible and so forth, the Quran or whatever, they tend to be more religious derivatives as you would, commandments or laws brought down from heaven as they say. That’s the conservative view or values is based more on what we refer to as the moral law or the Mosaic law.
Liberal is different, meaning they don’t necessarily adhere so much to the Mosaic law, but more to what we call the amoral law or the law that was set up by the legal system or the courts. Not so much coming as you would through a religious media like the Bible or the Quran or whatever, or the Torah, but more related to what the populace accepts as law. So in other words, the liberal view is less defined by the moral law or the love thy neighbor as myself kind of law, but more on what’s legal. In other words, what the court system has defined as legal.
For example, in the moral law, adultery is defined as one of the sins or one of the rules that needs to be followed. But in the amoral law or the liberal law, there’s no crime against committing adultery, I guess depends upon if you’re Donald Trump or not. But they accused him of having this relationship with Stormy Daniels and then hiding it as you would in some way he was keeping his records of that payment. Again, the liberal view is that we don’t necessarily follow the moral law or the Mosaic law, but we follow what is legal and not legal as defined by the rules of that country. That’s basically the difference, Rob, is the amoral is more focused on what’s legal and the moral law is based on what’s more what’s right or what’s based on what God defined as the Mosaic law or the moral law.
Morality, we’ve heard that term before is kind of the guideline of the conservative and so that the liberals say, well, let the people define what’s legal and what’s not as opposed to what God says is legal.
Rob Artigo: And I would take that a little bit further thinking about that. And when you have the Mosaic law being the rule of law, and then the liberal approach is more of the interpretation of the law according to norms of the moment. And I was looking at some research from 2013, so just over 10 years ago, it showed that conservatives desire security, predictability, and authority more than liberals do. And liberals are more comfortable with novelty and nuance, which I was just referring to when it comes to interpretation of law, and complexity. And I wonder if it’s still that way now here 11 years later, and was it that way in the 1970s when you started Micrel?
Ray Zinn: Yes, it’s substantially changed. I mean, the younger generation or what they call generation Z, they’re more liberal. In other words, they’re not so much… Well, they’re not religious for one thing. So if we define how a conservative would view loyalty, God, belief in God, belief in family, and belief in country or patriotism, they’re at least two to three times more likely to favor loyalty and family and God and patriotism more than the liberals who are less likely to make that as a priority. And so the Gen Z or the younger upcoming generation, they’re much less religious and their belief in what they call the moral law is like one third that of the conservatives.
So that that’s a change. And you have to understand then that, for example, in a company, loyalty is very important. The younger generation doesn’t believe that loyalty is that important. And especially when they can work from home or if they’re so mobile now compared to way it was 50, 60 years ago, you have to understand that as you now deal with that younger group.
Rob Artigo: That statistic has continued, I guess, the trend downwards for years, which is that fewer people feel strongly about having a religion or believing in God. And then also patriotism. And one of the stories I saw, which was actually from… I believe it was from 2023, and it said under 40% of Americans in general, we’re talking about young people, but also in this case under 40% of Americans said patriotism was very important to them. A similar number shared that opinion about religion. In 1998, when this survey first asked about these values, 70% of Americans felt patriotism was very important and 62% felt that way about religion. So we obviously have seen a enormous drop really in the percentage of people who feel that way. What do you owe that to?
Ray Zinn: The breakdown of the home, having a strong mother and father figurehead in the home has somewhat degraded those attributes of loyalty, family, God, and country. There’s less, I think, teaching and actually encouraging religion actually in the home. And if the children aren’t getting that emphatic guidance and direction, then they’re less likely to be religious. It’s interesting, this podcast wasn’t meant to dwell or focus on religion, but because it has such a dramatic impact on the morality of each of us that we can’t just ignore it.
That’s what’s actually covered in teachings in religion, is morality. That’s the moral law. And so if you’re not getting that, if that’s not being taught in some way either in school or church or family, or if you’re not getting that moral background, then you’re less likely to be moral. So if we look at loyalty, God, country, and family, that’s more of a moral issue as opposed to being what they call amoral, meaning whether it’s defined in the law or not. Not having that focus, religious focus as you would or moral focus, don’t call it religious, let’s call it moral. If you don’t have that moral focus in your home, in your community, in your education, or in the work environment, if the work environment that you’re in doesn’t promote morality, then again, it’s going to become less of a priority.
Rob Artigo: I think that in the more secular business environment, it manifests itself as a focus on ethics, on ethical behavior, and-
Ray Zinn: That’s all part of it.
Rob Artigo: And so you just don’t see that focus anymore. People don’t focus on that. It’s really all about what you can do for me to validate my opinions and attitudes, not what I can do for the company to make it better.
Ray Zinn: It reminds me of that John F. Kennedy and, “Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country.” It goes back to that’s 1961. It’s more of a me too focus currently that we have to deal with. And for those of you who are running companies, if you want a strong ethical company, then you have to have some kind of moral guidelines or attributes associated with your company. So I would encourage you leaders, corporate leaders, to bring in this morality and this self-governing concept of ethics and being honorable in the way you deal with your customers and your way you deal with each other.
Rob Artigo: Our listeners can join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Those questions that you might have and you want to pose to Ray, you can obviously do that. Comments as well all welcome at toughthingsfirst.com. Follow Ray Zinn on Twitter, which is obviously now X, Facebook and LinkedIn. And of course you can pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First, the flagship book of this podcast, so make sure you get that. Also, the Zen of Zen is a series one, two, and three, which we talk about occasionally on podcasts here. You’ll enjoy those books. If you like what you hear on these podcasts, you just get more of that in those books. Thanks again, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.
The enemy of innovation comes in many different forms, but usually the goal is the same. To throw you off your game. As Ray Zinn tells us in this Tough Things First podcast, stifling innovation can take a whole company out.
Rob Artigo: Let’s talk about this, ways in which innovation can be stifled in our businesses, in our organizations, because a lot of people that are listening to this either want to be entrepreneurs or are entrepreneurs, but there are other people who are just interested in the life advice that you offer.
So they have families and they experience roles of leadership and also serving others and all this stuff has value in those areas as well. And I found this list that sparked my interest on the subject. This list, it’s not one of your lists, but it’s certainly the kind of thing that you would come up with. So I wanted to ask you to see if you agree with the statement. If you could add something to it or make a change to it, what would you do? Let’s start with number one, fear. According to this list, fear is the single biggest reason why most organizations and individuals do not achieve their full potential. Fear of failure.
Ray Zinn: I agree. Fear is probably the biggest deterrent to success if you lack courage because the opposite of fear is courage, if you lack courage, then you won’t be able to pursue your dream or your mission. Fear is a great deterrent to innovation because you just don’t want to fail. Failure is part of growing. We all fail to some extent, and that’s how we grow. For example, a little child learning to walk, he will fall down and that’s failing as you would, but you know darn well that if you don’t start with that first step, you’re never going to learn to walk and so you’re going to fall down. And so becoming an entrepreneur or a successful CEO or leader, you have to be willing to fall, be willing to fail as you would, being willing to get up again and get back on that horse if you get bucked off.
Ray Zinn: And so if you ever watched a rodeo and watched the bucking broncos and the wild bull and riding those bulls, there’s some danger there. Life in general is dangerous as you would because the potential for failure. Learning to walk is potential for failure because you’re going to fall down. So you have to be willing to fall. A mistake is only a mistake if it’s not corrected. The mistake of falling down is not getting up again or not getting back on that horse or not solving that problem. If you look at the very first automobile model T Ford as you would, it looks nothing like compared to the… Comparing the model T Ford to what we have today, it’s night and day.
Rob Artigo: You mentioned leadership and the next one is on leadership. And it’s really about the lack of leadership. One of the enemies of innovation being the lack of leadership.
Ray Zinn: Leadership is very similar to being a parent. You have to set the example and we know with all the crime that we have today, especially in the big cities, it’s all reflected on the fact that there’s not a family, like an image, like a father image and a leader or entrepreneur. I use that term father in a sense of a leader. There’s just no father there leading that organization, trying to compare that to the family. Having that father image as you would, and I know there’s a lot of wonderful female CEO’s out there, but I’m still using it. Even if they’re a female CEO, that’s kind of the father, they’re still the father of their organization. And so you know what a father’s role is. A father’s role is to provide for the family, to protect the family, and sustain the family. That’s what a CEO does. They provide, they sustain, they protect, and they lead by example. The key to leadership is having that father role as you would, that father responsibility, being the father of that organization.
Rob Artigo: The next one on the list is short-term thinking. How troubling is that?
Ray Zinn: Well, it’s like buggy whip manufacturer, and you ignore the fact that there’s a car being designed. Short-term thinking is believing that that buggy whip is going to be around forever. It’s called the buggy whip phenomena. That short-term mentality. I mean, you may do well until that idea runs afoul like the pet rock or something. Short term thinking is focusing only on the near term, not looking at having to continue innovating your product. Look at the first Apple iPhone compared to what the current model is. I think it’s a 14 or 15, whatever the current level is, it’s night and day. It’s just like the first car. It doesn’t look any like the car today. So you have to build on what you know and keep growing and innovating and being creative and not sitting back and just assuming that pet rock is going to last forever as you would. So for those of you who don’t know what a pet rock is, that was something that happened back in the-
Rob Artigo: They took a rock and they glued eyeballs on it.
Ray Zinn: And you can make a pet out of it. I don’t know.
Rob Artigo: And that was a pet rock. That was it. Somebody came up with this idea. People made bundles of money by gluing those little plastic eyeballs onto a rock.
Ray Zinn: Well, you go online, you can still buy a pet rock, by the way it’s nothing like it was back in the sixties, but you can still buy them, but they’re not very innovative. They’re not very creative as you would, and so short term thinking is not looking that things are going to change. I guarantee you the only thing that is going to change is change.
Rob Artigo: And that leads directly into this last one here we’ll discuss is that there are lots of ideas out there, but no delivery to the market. That is an enemy of innovation.
Ray Zinn: What kind of an invention doesn’t lead to a product? You can’t call an invention an invention if it doesn’t lead to a product.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, I mean, it’s an idea. An idea can be anything, like I have an idea that I can use a bundle of rubber bands and launch a rocket ship to Mars. But that’s an unrealistic. That’s just an idea.
Ray Zinn: An idea without a product is strictly an idea. When you become innovative, that means you’re going to create, not just think. Thinking without doing is really daydreaming as you would. So in your thinking, there’s got to be some doing, so you got to go from the thinking to the doing, and it’s the doing that really is… Now we’re back to the first one, which is fear. The doing is if I never do it, then I don’t have to fear it. Fearing not doing it as you would. You got to go from the thinking phase to the doing phase.
Rob Artigo: Our listeners here at Tough Things First can join the conversation. If they’re not satisfied with just listening, they can reach out to you at toughthingssfirst.com. Make the recommendations for the topics they’d like to hear about. If you have questions, if you have comments, they’re always welcome. You can follow Ray on X. You can also follow Ray at Facebook and LinkedIn, and of course, pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First and Zinn of Zen, one, two, and three. You won’t regret it. Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you.
Some train wrecks are easily seen coming down the tracks while others go off the rails because of bad drivers. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses the faulty CEO who goes off the rails because their priorities get out of whack.
Rob Artigo: Well, a company called Stability AI was sold to investors as a, quote, “Herculean force poised to vanquish the twin serpents of illness and ailment and extend the olive branch of longevity,” unquote. And that sounds like a really good deal. Hey, I’m all about longevity and you’ve proven that you don’t need this technology to have longevity because you just live a good life and you’re good to go. One of the business startups that caught a lot of attention, and as recently as March of 2024, the CEO was hailed as a modern Prometheus. And you see how there’s like a Herculean force and a modern Prometheus, really like this hyperbole going on to build this company up. And a couple of weeks later, the creative leadership of the company, the creative team behind the company, they just all quit and the CEO ended up resigning. There were these issues going on like unpaid bills and bungled contracts and complaints about running out of money that had been known for, apparently, months and the CEO was unable to secure additional fundings.
And so, in March, he was out there while this was all going on, doing what amounts to some kind of tech TED Talk kind of thing where he is talking to a crowd of investors and people and building things up. So, where am I going with this? And the thing is that we were just casually talking about this not long ago. I thought it was interesting that your take on it was more about CEOs. You made the point that often a CEO kind of loses focus or doesn’t really know what the true objective is of the company. And you mentioned the company JUUL as an example of this. Let’s talk a little bit about how even good plans or good ideas can run afoul in a hunt for money.
Ray Zinn: Well, you’re talking about JUUL, which is that e-cigarette company.
Ray Zinn Cont: Their goal, they said, their stated goal was they want to get people off of cigarettes, tobacco, I should say, not cigarettes, but get them off of tobacco. And that sounded great. People jumped on it like crazy because they thought that, “Hey, this is a way to get off of tobacco,” because it was thought that it was the tobacco that was hurting your lungs and causing cancer and so forth. And so here they are, they were all Stanford, these are two Stanford students. They were all excited about, “Look at our ideal, our stated goal is to really get people off of tobacco and the effects of that-
Rob Artigo: Which you would think is a noble goal.
Ray Zinn: Yeah, it sounds noble.
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Ray Zinn: It sounds noble. Just like this company wants to increase longevity. Anytime we have something stated that, “Oh, this is for the good of this society. This is good for mankind,” people tend to rally behind that. And so, in the case of JUUL, their stated goal or mission sounded good, get people off of tobacco, but their real goal, as it turns out, was to make money. But to do that, they had to get people addicted to their product. Addicted. You know an addiction is, so you can’t do without it. That’s what an addiction is.
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Ray Zinn: So, if you get somebody addicted to popcorn or ice cream or candy or whatever, then they’ll keep buying that product. And so, almost everything that is an addiction is bad. Normally, addictions are associated with drugs and other things which are, pornography is an addiction. And so there are a lot of things that are addictive that aren’t necessarily a chemical or whatever. Addictions are bad, in general addictions are bad because we can’t do without it and it changes our life. It changes who we are. And so, these two Stanford students at JUUL, instead of having this creative idea of getting people off of tobacco, actually got them hooked on their product. And actually, because of the addiction, you take a little bit, but you keep taking more and more and more, you need more of it. They started promoting it to young people, even to middle-aged kids. And they got them hooked at a very early informative age. And that’s not good.
And so, now JUUL of course is undergoing a lot of scrutiny. I don’t know where their current situation is, but I do know that they got a lot of bad press. I know that the founders quit, and I think it was Marlboro or something like that, that actually acquired the major portion of JUUL. But again, these great ideas, these things that get people in society hooked on longevity and so forth, sound noble and great. And some of them are good, some of them are not good. But what this guy did, this CEO, was he was not focusing on their goal, their mission of improving longevity, he was focused on what can he do to promote himself. How can he become wealthier and better?
And so, he started not paying bills. He started spending the corporate money, the investor’s money on himself, tried to improve his own way of life. Most good CEOs, most entrepreneurs that are good entrepreneurs, their passion is to see their company succeed. They’re not necessarily focused on themselves. They’re not trying to make themselves successful. Some of the more successful people that we have in our mindset like Abraham Lincoln and Winston Churchill and others like that were not focused on themselves, they were focused on others. And so, what’s that? Mother Teresa?
Rob Artigo: Mm-hmm. Gandhi.
Ray Zinn: Is another one. Mahatma Gandhi. The true, real beloved people, beloved leaders, are those who don’t focus on themselves, they focus on others. And that’s the key to this podcast is, if you’re going to be an entrepreneur or a successful CEO, it’s because you focus on others. You put yourself second or third. Jesus Christ is another example of an individual who paid a great price for serving others, but He didn’t, certainly don’t remember Him as being wealthy or didn’t focus on His own success. He focused on others. And so, that’s the key to this podcast is, if you want to be successful, focus on others not yourself.
Rob Artigo: Really great advice. And I should tell the listeners that, as always, they can reach out to you with their questions at toughthingsfirst.com. They can continue their education in conversation with all the podcasts, blogs and links to information about Ray’s books, Tough Things First, The Zen of Zinn series is always recommended. There’s three books there and some great wisdom as well. You’ll find in all of what Ray writes more of what you experience here in this podcast. And just to underscore, it’s all good stuff to keep a rounded attitude about things. And Ray, the remarks you had about where a CEO needs to have the focus, I mean really, we’ve seen so many examples of it, that where a person focused on themselves ends up in ruin. Throwing it out there is, you were a CEO for 37 years at Micrel, and one of your most important attributes as a leader was your empathy and care for other people in the business and less about yourself and your finances.
Ray Zinn: That’s correct.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. Well, thanks Ray. Thanks. Great podcast.
Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.
The Chips and Science Act is supposed to lower silicon chip manufacturing costs, create jobs, and strengthen supply chains. It all started three years ago, but as Ray Zinn explores in this Tough Things First Podcast, China’s head start caught many by surprise.
Rob Artigo: Hi, Ray. I was reading about this fresh influx of about $8.5 billion in…
Ray Zinn: No, $85 billion, $85 billion.
Rob Artigo: $85 billion? Well, in this particular story that I was reading deals with Intel and it said $8.5 billion so you’re saying…
Ray Zinn: That’s just to Intel.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, just to Intel. In this Intel thing, $8.5 billion in CHIPS and Science Act funding to help Intel build its semiconductor plant and upgrading an existing plant in Chandler, Arizona and downtown Phoenix. It’s expected to bring in thousands of high-paying jobs and that sort of thing. But I really wanted to just use that as a bouncing board to say, “Where’s the industry right now? The chip industry.”
Ray Zinn: And I might have my numbers wrong, maybe it’s $58 billion, not $85 billion, but it might be 50. I don’t remember the exact amount. But what happened was is back in the late seventies, early eighties, the industry began moving offshore some of their manufacturing because it was less expensive and mainly the less expensive and more they offloaded upsourced or sent out the higher labor-intensive parts of the manufacturing, such as assembly and test of the semiconductors. And they did this primarily in Asia, and in Asia Pacific. And that began the beginning of the end as you would, as you open up that door cracked and then it swings wider as time goes on.
And as a consequence of them moving that assembly and test offshore, first it was assembly, then it became assembly and test, that gave these other countries an opportunity to see what you’re doing. And they gained a foothold in semiconductors. In the late nineties, they really opened the door up for China. This is the Y2K thing, the changing of the centuries. And they opened the door up to allow manufacturing in China with semiconductor wafer fabrication. Wafer fabrication is the process technology that’s used to create these wafers with the chips on them, the circuitry on the wafer itself.
And they sold a lot of the used equipment that we had. They bought, I should say, we sold, they bought a lot of used equipment, and they began manufacturing wafers themselves. Mainly older technology, 10, 15, 20-year-old technology they were using in China primarily. In Japan that began in the eighties with memory chips. They opened the door up to let Japan have access to our technology. And Japan then became the world’s largest supplier of semiconductor memory. Then they opened up the door for South Korea in manufacturing processors, which is the heart of a computer, step by step, piece by piece, the industry began to give up its crown jewels to these other countries.
Now, of course, Europe has always had our semiconductor technology, but then it got into Russia and the communist countries vis-a-vis they began to… As you would steal our secrets and our patents. And I want to start out by saying that the gross national product of the world, or worlds, as you would, the world GDP, really is formed from what we call non discretionary… From discretionary products like TVs, radios, computers, all kinds of electronic technology. So goes the electronics industry, so goes what we call world GDP, which is what call discretionary technology.
Non-discretionary courses is what you have to have every day to eat, rinse, food, energy, and that sort of thing. That’s called non-discretionary. But discretionary is electronics. And the heart of electronics, and it’s always been the heart of electronics, has been semiconductors, at least in the last hundred years. And so semiconductors are extremely important in the manufacturing of almost all products now, whether it be refrigerators, washing machines, cars, things that before didn’t have much electronics in them, your kitchen now is almost 100% electronics. And that semiconductor technology became crucial to electronics.
Some of the biggest electronics suppliers now are non-US companies like LG and Samsung, and some of you should recognize some of those names. And they’re in everything, primarily in our homes. It became very prevalent going into the 2000’s, the technology spread like wildfire. Well, of course China wanted to build up their GDP as you would. And really semiconductor technology is at the heart of China’s growth. Huawei, and ZTE, and some of those other companies that are big companies in China that produce large electronic systems are hungry for semiconductor technology.
Well, in 2005, China made a goal, published goal that they wanted to produce 95% of all their own chips by 2025. And we, I guess frowned or we didn’t think much of it. We didn’t ho-hum, “Oh, they really can’t do that.” Well, they have surprises because they have been able to do it and because of environmental concerns here, the green and environmental and whatever, the semiconductor industry has really been shut down in the United States because of environmental issues, because there are a lot of environmental issues associated with the manufacturer of semiconductors. Of course, the environmental issues are more government funded or affected than anything else. The government, to a large extent has brought about this demise of semiconductor technology in the U.S.
Rob Artigo: And China doesn’t care about that stuff.
Ray Zinn: No, no. China is careless about environmental issues. They’re more than happy to welcome semiconductor technology.
Well, as it turns out, the U.S used to be 75% of all semiconductors were produced in the U.S, or at least the processing of wafers was done in the US. Now that’s shrunk to under 30% worldwide are produced here in the US. The government is finding out finally, after 50 years, they have finally figured out that semiconductor technology is extremely important to GDP, gross national product. If we’re going to continue to grow and not give up as you would our growth potential, especially in what we call discretionary products, we got to get that technology back into the U.S.
Now, here’s something that’s interesting and why I think there’s still hope is that the technology changes about every five years. One thing we have to our advantage is that 90% of all semiconductor equipment, production equipment is still produced in the US and Europe, and these European countries are favorable to the US and there are partners.
We do control the technology by virtue of the advancement and manufacturing of semiconductor manufacturing equipment. We do have the ability to stay ahead if we don’t give up our equipment technology, as you would, we will still be able to stay ahead. But the government has finally realized that we need to get back to producing things here in the US and not just become a service and financial GDP, as you would, that we do need electronics. And so therefore the US is, I think is, I don’t remember now, but I think it’s $58 billion or something like that. They got approved to introduce or to get back manufacturing in the US, and Intel was a recipient of a large portion of it. And that’s in creating those new fabs in Channel, Arizona.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, the number that I was looking at was 50… Looks like $50 billion, at least in the US Department of Commerce website says $50 billion, and that’s a lot of money. And we’ll see where that takes us. The only thing I would ask you to finish this off is to say, or to ask, are we really divesting from China in doing so or are we in some ways benefiting China with CHIPS Act funding?
Ray Zinn: Well, we are trying to divest ourselves from manufacturing semiconductors in China. I do see that happening and China sees it happening, and we’re also preventing China from selling some of their high-end technology back into the US like from Huawei. The US is trying. Things move slowly in government, but they are recognizing the need to get this technology back into the US so that the trade seekers don’t keep getting spread out throughout the world.
Rob Artigo: Because it’s a leaky environment out there. I think it’s not a ill intent kind of thing. It’s just about it being competitive and wanting to make sure that we’re taking care of ourselves. And for many years, China benefited from our openness and we want to be able to recognize the fact that China hasn’t been a fair dealer in that respect.
Ray Zinn: It’s one of the reasons why China wants to take Taiwan is because of the semiconductor technology. See, Taiwan produces 15 to 20% of all semiconductors worldwide. And China would love to have access to that Taiwanese semiconductor business. And that’s one of the concerns of course the US has is they don’t want China to get access to that technology.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, as always, our listeners here at Tough Things First can reach out to you with their questions at Toughthingsfirst.com. They can continue their education and the conversation with all of the podcasts, blogs, links to Ray’s books, Tough Things First, the Zen of Zen one, two, and three. And in general, you can get to the social media as well and keep following up on what’s happening here at Tough Things First. Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hey, Rob, if they want to hear more about semiconductor and semiconductor businesses and issues, send us a note. Tell us what you want to hear, and if you want to hear more of these or if you want to hear less or whatever, let us know because we certainly can talk more about semiconductor technology going forward if you want to hear more about that.
Rob Artigo: I’m sure there’ll be a lot of opportunities too, particularly with this CHIP Act because we have so many different aspects of a semiconductor that will be coming up and we’ll see how effective things are. Thanks, Ray.
Between global turmoil and more local chaos, how do you stay focused in life, and stay profitable in business? In this Tough Things First Podcast, Ray Zinn explores the finer points or knowing where to put your energy and what to avoid. (Watch Video Podcast)
Rob Artigo: Well, 2024 has been marked by small but vigorous protests around the world influenced by the attack on Israel and then Israel’s response to that attack, but that’s just one aspect of what’s going on in the world. We have Russia and Ukraine, we have China and Taiwan, and in the business world, we have higher than usual operating costs, difficult labor market, and lots of uncertainty out there. So this question really is in your wheelhouse, and I really wanted to ask you about it is, how do we as business leaders and entrepreneurs stay focused and profitable when everything else in the world seems to be going crazy?
Ray Zinn: This is all about being able to deal with challenges. Half the time, things are going to be going up, half the time things are going to be going down, and so you just have to be able to deal with the vicissitudes of mortality, meaning the challenges, the problems that face you as you wake up in the morning and try to execute your day.
If you think about a challenge, I think that what Donald Trump is going through with four litigated litigations that he’s dealing with and running for president, which is unbelievable task, and then still running his business at the same time, I think that’s like rubbing your head, patting your stomach and jumping rope at the same time. I don’t know how you do that. I can see rubbing your stomach and patting your head, but I don’t know how you jump rope, but he’s doing unbelievable.
I mean, how he does all aspects of dealing with four lawsuits or four litigatory issues, still campaigning, still running his business. It’s amazing that here we have an example of someone contemporarily who’s doing all that, and so I’m sure he’s been asked, how does he accomplish that? Well, he puts his pants on just like we do. In other words, we’re all human. We all face the same issues, health issues, family issues, business, economic, whatever. We’re all are faced with these challenges. So the key, as you would talking about the key to dealing with challenges and not getting derailed is to be able to compartmentalize, be able to separate each thing out one after another, and being able to not be derailed by the overall problem.
And so what you need to do is really break your day down into things you have to get done. Don’t worry about tomorrow, don’t worry about yesterday, just worry about today. What can I do today? And I think that’s what Donald Trump is doing is he says, “Okay, what am I going to do today? And I’m going to make the best of it,” so I’m sure he’s going to do the tough things first because that’s our motto and our book, Tough Things First, is you make a list of the things which you don’t want to do, wish you hadn’t had to do and you do them first. Get those out of the way, and then the rest of the day goes easy. Don’t worry about tomorrow, don’t worry about yesterday. Just focus on, “What can I do…” Because you can’t do anything about tomorrow. You can’t do anything about it yesterday.
All you can deal with is what’s going on today. And so just sit down first thing in the morning, make a list of the things you don’t want to do and then tackle them first, and then you just roll from there, and you really can’t worry about things that you can’t control because worrying about things you can’t control is an oxymoron. I mean, it’s like you break your leg and saying, “Oh, I wish I hadn’t broke my leg.” Well, you have a broken leg, you’ve got to go fix it. You can’t say, “Well, I wish I didn’t have a broken leg.” You could say that I guess, but it wouldn’t do you any good. So again, focus on doing the tough things first. Get those out of the way and you’ll see how much smoother your day will go.
Rob Artigo: We were talking about how don’t worry about the things that you can’t control, and clearly you can’t control world events, and because you have Ukraine, for example, if you woke up in the morning and focused all your attention on stressing out over Russia and Ukraine, but you can’t do anything about that. So if you waste energy on focusing on those things that you have no control over, that’d be like trying to focus on changing the weather. The weather’s going to happen one way or another. “Oh, I have to stress over the weather.” Well, from what I hear you saying is that clearly you need to just set aside, really compartmentalize those things that come into your mind that are out of your control and just say, “Look, I can’t do anything about that. That’s not my problem. My concerns should be what’s happening right now in the sphere in which I can influence.”
Ray Zinn: A friend of mine, and I [inaudible 00:06:05] more of an acquaintance of mine is T. J. Rodgers who used to run a company called Cypress Semiconductor, and I’ve known TJ for, gosh, I don’t even know how long, 40, 50 years. And he recently sold Cypress, and now he has a company called Complete Solaria which is a solar energy company putting solar panels on people’s houses and whatever. But anyway, he recently did a SPAC on his company, that’s a special purpose acquisition company, it’s called a SPAC, where he went public vis-à-vis another company at $9.30 a share, I think it was, and then that’s within the last nine or 10 months ago, and then he saw that stock drop tremendously over the ensuing two or three months, it dropped under $5 and then $3, and then right down.
Rob Artigo: Making him a penny stock, basically.
Ray Zinn: What?
Rob Artigo: Yeah, basically it became… I used the term penny stock, meaning it had gone way down [inaudible 00:07:24]-
Ray Zinn: What’s on NASDAQ anyway, but my point is that, and he’s dumped $68 million into Complete Solaria, and he saw that stock drop to 20 cents and the value of the company went down to nine or $10 million total valuation. And my grandson happens to work for Complete Solaria, and so I get to follow what’s happening with Complete Solaria by just checking with my grandson how it’s going, and it’s amazing to see your company… And by the way, TJ is a very successful entrepreneur, very successful and done very well, and he saw his company drop in value of 96%. I mean, drop. That’s tremendous drop.
He hasn’t given up. He didn’t lose his energy and enthusiasm for turning the company around. I mean, so will he do it? Sure. I believe that TJ will turn that company around, but he’s not going to let the world events or let what’s happening with Donald Trump or what’s happening with the riots at the different schools, he’s not going to let that affect him. He’s going to focus on what he has to do to get Complete Solaria up and running and get it back on its feet.
So he recently did a conversion where he converted $5 million in debt to shares in Complete Solaria. He had to do it at 80% of the market price. That was a few weeks ago, at 45 cents was the market price, and of course, he saw that drop all the way down to 20 cents, but he did a conversion at 38 cents, and it’s just incredible. Rather than throwing in the towel and saying, “I am not going to do anymore, I’m not going to focus on making this company successful,” he did whatever it took, and that’s one of the models or one of the cultures that I have is doing whatever it takes, no excuses.
Rob Artigo: … right.
Ray Zinn: So again, an excuse is a reason wrapped in a bag of poop, so he didn’t come up with an excuse. He just dove into it. Now, there’s a lot of challenges, a lot of problems. I mean, I just can’t believe that he could still keep his enthusiasm up when he saw this company’s value drop 96%, but it did, and now it’s back up again, now it’s recovering a little bit. But anyway, so to keep focused means you have to compartmentalize to separate out all those things you can’t control, things that are totally outside your scope of influence and focus on your task, focus on what you have to do, whether it be a family issue, whether it be a personal health issue, your company, your community, whatever it is that you have to focus on, focus on that because many of you who are watching this podcast or listening to it aren’t necessarily running a company, but you do have problems.
You do have challenges every single day. And so to deal with that, as I said, sit down first thing in the morning, make a list of all those things that you can control, that you have the ability to deal with. Write those tough ones, the ones you don’t want to do, get those done and out of the way, then the rest your day is easy.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. And your example of your acquaintance that saw that his investment was sort of… I wouldn’t say going down the tubes, but we started at one price point on the stock market and we saw it fall down to pennies, and he kept his wits about himself, and he managed to weather the storm just by being not, I’m assuming your read of it is that he wasn’t being emotional about the situation. He was being focused on what he could focus on and understand the fundamentals of the potential there. So he wants to see it turn around, of course, but he’s not freaking out, and everybody else, and many other people are probably freaking out.
Ray Zinn: Well, he may be. I’m not sure he’s not emotional, but I’m sure when I had my challenges, it affected my emotions.
Rob Artigo: Okay, okay.
Ray Zinn: I mean, it does affect you, you’re human. I mean, there’s going to be emotions associated with your challenge. So in any case, I’m sure he was emotional because I’m sure he didn’t like what was going on. None of us like challenges or problems. It doesn’t change our ability or our need to deal with them, but I’m sure he was concerned. The outcome of it is that he didn’t give up. He didn’t throw in the towel. He didn’t say, “Oh crap, I’m done with this.” He jumped, he said, “Okay, here’s what I’ve got to do.” He broke it down into segments that he could eat, he could chew. Like an elephant, how do you eat a whole elephant? You eat him one chow-chew at a time, one by bite at time. So he just broke it down and said, “Okay, I’ve got to do this, this, this and this.”
I have no doubt he’ll turn it around. I’ve invested in the company myself personally, because I know TJ will turn it around. I have faith in that. So anyway, I’m losing a lot of money right now because I bought the stock a lot higher. I mean, I bought it under a dollar and now it’s down around 30 or 40 cents. But anyway, I’m sure he’ll turn it around. My point for this whole podcast is don’t focus on things you can’t do anything about. If you can’t affect it, if there’s nothing you can do about it, then don’t deal with it, just move on.
Whether you broke your leg or whether you broke your arm, or whether you came down with cancer or whatever it is, you focus on what you can handle, what you can deal with, and then the rest is easy because you’re focusing on what you can handle. Don’t focus on things you can’t change the outcome. I do feel for TJ and what he’s going through and trying to turn Complete Solaria around, but I can’t do anything about it. There’s nothing I can do to affect what he needs to do to make it successful. And the same thing, I can’t help Trump, I can’t hurt him either. I can’t help him [inaudible 00:14:24]. I can’t do a thing. I can pray for him, but that’s about it. And so focus on what you can do. Don’t focus on things you can’t do.
Rob Artigo: Well, let’s let the listeners know we appreciate the fact that they are listening or watching this special edition of the Tough Things First podcast which is on video. Again, if you weren’t watching it on video already, you can go to the website toughthingsfirst.com, and you can click on this podcast and then click on, watch now or watch this video, and you’ll be able to see it. So if you want to review something or you want to see what it looks like to watch us on video, we would appreciate that here at Tough Things First. And this is a fast-growing podcast, rated one of the top in Silicon Valley, and we’d like you to keep that up for us by giving us a rating on your favorite podcast platform. Please also check out Ray’s books, the Zen of Zinn. There are three books. It’s a great series, and also, of course, Tough Things First is the flagship book and the motto, as Ray mentioned, of this podcast. Do the tough things first. Ray, awesome podcast. Thank you very much for your time.
Ray Zinn: You’re welcome.
Many entrepreneur’s know when their mojo is working, but some people just do not know how to tap into it. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn offers a surefire way to find your mojo.
Rob Artigo: Entrepreneurs at their heart are creative, ambitious people. Am I generally right when I say that?
Ray Zinn: Absolutely. You have to have ambition, you’ve got to have the enthusiasm, and you have to have that passion. Passion, passion, passion.
Rob Artigo: Entrepreneurs know when they are on a roll because everything is kind of clicking, and I was looking at Zen of Zinn 3, page 49, and I was reading something that you wrote and it talks about mojo. Let me read this for you. It says, “I got my mojo working. How’s your mojo? Mojo refers to magic or special power. We all have a mojo, but often don’t identify what it is. In my mind, of course, being your mind, mojo is that unique talent each of us has. If you are having difficulty finding your mojo, ask those that know you well. Often these people can help you find it.” This is from, again, page 49 of Zen Zinn 3, and you obviously can pick up that series if you want to, but Ray, let’s talk about mojo. I mean, obviously you had your mojo working when you wrote this.
Ray Zinn: Yeah, so talking to my wife the other day, I wrote 10 or 11 musings the other day, and all at one time, I just went one after another and I was saying to her, “I don’t know how I do this. I really can’t figure out how I am able to just sit down and just start creating all these sayings because I’ve done thousands of them so far.”
And she says, “It’s because of your mojo.” And I said, “Okay, what is my mojo?” She says, “You’re intuitive, you’re perceptive. You can see things that others can’t see, and that’s how you can write about them.” Well, that’s what a book author does. I mean, he can see things that others can’t see, and so it may not be your mojo. Your mojo may be your ability to work with people. Maybe you’re a good salesperson or maybe you’re a good accountant, maybe you’re good with numbers, or you’re great at motivating others.
We all have different talents and there’s no one talent that’s particularly better than another. They’re just kind of what we’re born with as you would our innate ability. This podcast is really to get you to focus on where is your unique talent. As we start out talking about that musing that I wrote in Zen of Zinn 3, you can ask your spouse, your significant other, your mom, your father, friends. They know you and they know what you’re great at and what you’re good at.
It’s good to get that reinforced by someone that knows you. So go to someone that knows you. It might be a professor, it might be classmates, it might be someone else. It might be your preacher, it might be your cousin or your wife or your husband or whoever, but ask them, “What’s my unique talent?” And then go after it and focus on that, tune it to a fine, fairly well as it were to just really work on developing that unique talent. And you’ll find out how much that will benefit you then as you proceed with your career.
Rob Artigo: That just triggered something in my mind about the importance for young people to understand this because oftentimes I think that if you just ask any 18 year olds, “What do you want to do with your life?” “I don’t know. I don’t really know if I’m interested in anything, and then I don’t know if I’m good at anything or I don’t know where my talents lie.”
For young people specifically in this situation, what you just said, it could be the secret sauce to them figuring out what to do with the rest of their lives because they can, if they are free to do so, if they feel like if they have the confidence to do so is to be, I guess it’s humbling to go to somebody and say, “Hey, what do you think about this? What have you seen in me that looks like it’s a value that I can do in the world? Where are my talents?” And those people, like you said, who know them well, are going to say, “I’ve seen you do this and I’ve seen you do that, and I think you’re really good in this area.”
Ray Zinn: I’m going to be meeting in a few days with a number of college students at San Jose State University. They’ll listen to their pitch on what they have an idea for starting a company, and I’ll be great to see how their mojo fits into that because that’s what I look for. When I will go there and I’ll listen to their pitches, I will sense in my mind if they’re going to be successful by how their passion is, how do they feel about this particular business opportunity that they’re pursuing?
It’s called Zen Starter and Zen Starter is a business that I’ve set up at these different universities, five or six universities where Zen Starter will help fund them in their business if their board of directors or the school will give them the go-ahead to do it. We help fund that, and so they learn how to start a business while they’re still in school. And so I get a chance now in a few days to listen to a number of pitches from the students of what they think is a good business.
And what I’m going to be looking at is where’s their passion? In other words, where’s their mojo and do they have that unique talent to pull it off? Everybody would like to be an entrepreneur. Everybody would love to be able to start their own business work for themselves, but not everybody can. Not everybody has that mojo that allows them to go where no one’s gone before, as you would.
Look at successful athletes, and you’ll see that they have a unique talent. Maybe they’re not all running backs or tight ends, maybe they’re guards or tackles or whatever or centers, but they have a unique ability and that’s what allows them to succeed is they have to do it better than the guy next door, so to speak. And it’s the same thing when I go to San Jose State in a few days is to see how successful I believe they can be because I’m an investor in them and what they’re doing through Zen Starter, and I want to see if they have that unique talent to make this business that they want to start successful.
Rob Artigo: Professional athletes tend to start out in their development years as the best players on every team and every sport that they play. They’re that good. But it takes advice and talking to people and understanding where their skills really lie and really stand out to decide which sport and then decide which position. So I love that example about whether you’re going to be a tight end or a receiver or a running back or whatever the case may be. You don’t know. You may want to be a receiver and they’re going, “Nope, you’re going to be a running back. You’re going to do this, or you’re going to be a center because that’s where you’re best suited for.” And then you work in that area. And most of the time, these guys find out that that was a good decision, that they did the right thing because they were most successful, and it takes good coaches to do that sort of thing.
So let’s wrap this conversation up by saying join the conversation at ToughThingsFirst.com. Your questions and comments are always welcome. Follow Ray Zinn on X, Facebook and LinkedIn, and of course you can pick up Ray’s books Tough Things First and as you’ve mentioned Ray, the Zen of Zinn 1, 2, and 3. You won’t regret it.
Ray, real quick, I wanted to ask you, I like the Zen of Zinn for how it is a nest of writings that reflect, like you said, you write a ton of these things, but the Zen of Zinn is a special kind of book because it is one where you can pick it up and you can read a few of these things. I’m going to say that it’s not like a fortune cookie. You can read it and get something out of it and then put it into work in your life.
Ray Zinn: Yeah, I’d say opening up a fortune cookie every day.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. That is it. Thanks, Ray. Thanks for a great conversation.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.
Loyalty in the mafia means something different than loyalty in its most productive and meaningful ways, or does it? Is blind obedience really loyalty? Ray Zinn explores the finer points and graces or loyalty.
Rob Artigo: Rob Artigo here once again, your host for this edition of the “Tough Things First” podcast. I’m an entrepreneur in California, wonderful to be… Let me try that again. Three, two, one.
Rob Artigo here once again, your host for this edition of “The Tough Things First” podcast. I’m an entrepreneur in California. Wonderful to be back again with you, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hey, it’s good to be with you, Rob. Thanks for joining me today.
Rob Artigo: Of course Ray’s the longest-serving CEO in Silicon Valley history, ran my Micrel for more than 37 years.
So Ray, you say loyalty is one of the most important human attributes. I was thinking about loyalty, and this is how I framed it was, loyalty in the mafia means something very different than the loyalty we expect in our lives with our families and our places that we work, because those are the more productive and meaningful ways to have loyalty. Blind obedience really is not loyalty anyway. So a healthy loyalty benefits pretty much everybody. You say-
Ray Zinn: So, Rob-
Ray Zinn: So, going back to your comment about loyalty is not the same thing with the mafia. So once you hit on that, why you think that loyalty is not the same as it is in the mafia.
Rob Artigo: Well, what I mean is that if I’m just being obedient, that’s not loyalty.
Ray Zinn: Well, it’s part of loyalty, though.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, but there’s an expectation that you’re cooperating and willing to do what the other person expects of you. But I think that loyalty, if I tell you that you’re going to do something or I’m going to hurt you, it’s really more of coercion than loyalty. Does that make sense?
Ray Zinn: Sounds like a gang-type thing.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, that’s what I mean. In the mafia, you expect that somebody might… Like the boss tells you to do something, and you either don’t do it or you fail to do it right, you could be sleeping with the fishes, as they say, with cement shoes.
Ray Zinn: So, let’s talk about then why loyalty is one of the most important attributes that a human can have-
Rob Artigo: Okay, why don’t we start with that.
Ray Zinn: … because it might flow into why you think that there’s no honor among-
Rob Artigo: Well, I have a list of seven bullet points that you had written about, and we’ll go through those, but let’s start with your explanation here.
Ray Zinn: Okay, so we’re talking about what the loyalty is the best, strongest attribute we can have. Is that what you’re referring to?
Rob Artigo: Yeah, I think that’s what you were leading into.
Ray Zinn: When you think of a relationship with another person and you want to build that relationship, that’s where loyalty comes in, because you’re honorable. Other words, you’re trustworthy. You have integrity. You show dignity. You’re not negative. You’re positive in how you want to develop that relationship. You’re a good listener. You’re joyful. You’re happy when you’re around them. You’re willing to be supportive, and if they have a problem, you’re going to jump in and help them.
And so that’s what I mean by if we look at loyalty. While loyalty implies obedience, it’s obedience in that relationship, whether it be marriage, whether it be a family, whether it be your school or your vocation, whatever it is, you’re going to be obedient to the requirements of that vocation, following the rules as you would, whether you’re an engineer, whether you’re a doctor, whether you’re a lawyer, whether you’re a husband, or whatever it is you’re doing. You want to make sure you comply with the agreement or the rules as you would associated with that relationship.
Rob Artigo: Well, let’s take a look at this list that you put together here, which I think is all meaningful points. And this is really all related to the concept of demonstrating that loyalty, which you were mentioning there.
Number one says you’re just simply being dependable.
Ray Zinn: Yeah. What employee that’s not to work on time or dependable at their job would be considered loyal. That’s the key to being dependable is that you can rely on me. You can depend on me. I’m valuable. I’m resourceful, as you would. I’m there for you. That’s being dependable. You’re there when you’re needed.
Rob Artigo: Well, before I continue to number two, is it important to make sure that you’re demonstrating that loyalty to your employer or the other people that you are loyal to?
Ray Zinn: Absolutely. That’s the key to being dependable. If you’re not dependable, how can I be considered loyalty, whether it be military duty, or whether it be in some other political arena where you’re not being dependable in the way you vote or the way you resource your particular job.
Rob Artigo: All right, so number two here is being supportive no matter what the issue is.
Ray Zinn: Absolutely. If you’re not supportive, let’s say you’re an employee, as you would, if you’re not supportive of the company and its mission, you shouldn’t be working there. And the same thing if you’re the CEO or the boss and you’re not supportive of your employee, they’re going to know that and they’re going to leave you. They’re going to go off in some other vocation.
So it’s extremely important to be supportive with your political party. If you’re not supporting your views, then you’re just not going to be a very loyal political leader.
Rob Artigo: And if you’re representing a company that has products that are for sale, and when you’re out talking to other people, you tell people, “Oh, I prefer the widget from Sony Corporation,” or something like that. And it’s not the widget you sell, it’s a different company that does it.
And you’re like, “Well, yeah, I just think it’s a better product.” That’s not being supportive is, you’re trash talking, basically, your own product, and that’s not going to help things out. So if you’re not supporting the product, then you’re not being supportive.
Ray Zinn: Right, exactly.
Rob Artigo: All right, number three, being kind and compassionate. That’s something that was part of the culture of Micrel for 37 years when you were running the company. And it seems like very much common sense to be part of this list is being kind and compassionate.
Ray Zinn: No, I can’t think of any other two attributes that would be more associated with loyalty than being kind and compassionate. In a marriage relationship, if you’re not kind and compassionate with your spouse, how’s that being loyal? Or if you’re an employee and you’re not showing kindness and compassion towards your fellow worker or towards your company, then understanding, and dependable, all these things wrapped up into kindness and compassion, then what kind of person are you?
Rob Artigo: And being a good listener is number four.
Ray Zinn: Yes. Again, what kind of a supportive spouse or worker would you be if you’re not a good listener? If you don’t listen well, remember, we have two ears and one mouth for a reason, and we need to use in proportionally, meaning you should be listening more than you’re talking. And so listening is extremely important, because you’re not going to understand the other person’s point of view if you’re not listening, if you’re trying to talk over them.
And we see that a lot in politics. They don’t listen to each other. They really don’t. They just try to talk over each other. And that’s a discouraging thing. No matter what political party you’re affiliated with, they don’t listen very well. They all try to talk over each other.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, just listen to one of these congressional house hearings or something like that. You know that the politicians are not listening to what the people that are testifying are saying. When it’s time for them to ask questions, all they do is make a statement.
Number five, going the extra mile.
Ray Zinn: That’s kind of a biblical saying is to go the extra mile, because that does show loyalty, willing to do whatever it takes, no excuses, as we talk about in our book, “Tough Things First”. Just doing whatever is minimal, just doing the minimum amount, doesn’t speak to your loyalty, doesn’t speak to your willingness to really do whatever it takes to make this adventure a success, whether it be a marriage, or whether it be an education, or work situation. If you’re not willing to go the extra mile, work the extra minutes in the day, or put in the extra time and energy, that doesn’t speak well to your loyalty.
Rob Artigo: And number six, being respectful, not judgmental.
Ray Zinn: That’s something we talked about in one of our podcasts about differentiate, don’t discriminate. Being respectful is extremely important in a relationship. I tell my wife every day, maybe five or 10 times a day, how much I appreciate, how much I love her and appreciate what she does for us and the family. And so I express that readily.
And so at your work, whether you’re a doctor, a nurse, or whatever, your lawyer, express appreciation to those that you’re working with, your client. If you’re a lawyer, express appreciation. Tell how much I appreciate you as a client or vice versa. If you’re a client, tell how much you appreciate the legal advice you’re getting, or whoever’s taking care of your house, whether they’re mowing your lawn, or whether they’re planting your flowers, or cleaning your house, whatever, express appreciation to them. Tell them how much you really appreciate what they’re doing.
So expressing appreciation is so key to developing a lawyer relationship, and we need more of that. We don’t express appreciation enough.
Rob Artigo: Well, the final one on this list here, I think I might’ve transcribed it incorrectly, because it says, “judging others”. I think the idea is really not to be judgmental of others.
Ray Zinn: Well, again, it goes with being respectful. Differentiate, but don’t discriminate. Finding out why your spouse didn’t cook the best meal that you were expecting and being respectful. In other words, there was a reason why that happened that way, or why your boss yelled at you, or why you yelled at your boss, or whatever the issue may be is, try to be understanding and not jump to conclusions.
And we’ve heard that jumping to conclusions can kill you. And so don’t make off-the-cuff statements until you walk, as they say the Indians, walk two miles in their shoes, as you would or whatever, two weeks or whatever. And so don’t be quick to judge. Be slow, slow to judge.
Rob Artigo: As always, you can reach out to Ray Zinn with your questions at toughthingsfirst.com. Continue your education and the conversation with all the podcasts, blogs, and links to information about Ray’s books, “Tough Things First”, “The Zen of Zinn” I, II, and III. And, of course, we have another book coming up that is the “Essential Leadership”. And I think everyone’s going to enjoy that, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you.
Entrepreneurs rarely get what they “deserve”, but most everyone gets what they focus on, good or bad. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn takes a deep dive into our focus and how it drives the results.
Rob Artigo: You wrote recently, we generally get what we expect, and you say the reason is our focus is on what we want, and that dictates our decisions. It’s true in our personal lives. Is it true in our business lives and our work environment?
Ray Zinn: Absolutely. I mean, you get what you expect because that’s where your focus is, so if you’re not happy in your work or you’re not enjoying what you’re doing, you’re going to change your focus and that focus becomes your output because again, you can’t think of two things at the same time.
You can only focus on one thing at a time, and so if you’re focusing on what is not what you want, you’re still going to get it because you’re going to get where your focus is.
Rob Artigo: Is this, and I know you are an equestrian, you like to ride horses. Is it like the horse that meanders around? If you’re on a horse that’s disinterested in doing a ride, but their eye will point towards something and they’ll start going that way instead of going the trail that you want to ride on, it’ll wander off to the side, where you’re focused on something and you naturally gravitate towards it.
Ray Zinn: Yeah. I’m sure that’s quite what it is. I mean, on riding horses in race horses, they put these cups around their eyes so that they focus straight ahead because a horse can actually see back toward the rear, and so they want him focusing on where he is, not where he was. Again, that’s not exactly a perfect example of what you’re talking about, but certainly where our focus is, and our focus could not be visual, it could be audio. It could be also what we’re thinking and what we’re smelling, or what we’re feeling, that determines or affects our focus. For example, if your cubicle or where you’re working is very, very cold, then you’re going to be focusing on how cold it is and you’ll lose a train of thought on what you’re trying to accomplish and you’ll make mistakes.
Or if it’s too hot, the same way. Maybe you get up and get a drink of water or whatever, or go try to cool off as you would. It doesn’t have to be just what you’re thinking. It could be how you feel. Maybe you’re sick, maybe you’re coming down with a cold, or maybe you’ve got a headache, or you’ve got an earache, or a toothache, or your shoulder hurts or whatever, those things can distract you and keep you from focusing on the job at hand or the task at hand.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, and in your upcoming book, Essential Leadership Managing Distractions, and it seems like that’s part of that process. And so I guess, the positive thing is if you’re right focused, if you’re focused on the right objectives for your business and for your working life, then you head in that direction. The drawback is that if you were focused on something negative, you’re going to gravitate in that direction and the wish becomes the reality sort of scenario.
Ray Zinn: If you have a headache or an earache, or a cold or a physical thing, it’s best to go get it fixed. It’s best to take either something that’ll minimize the effects of that particular medical problem so that you can go back to focusing. So sometimes you need to fix something that’s distracting you, whether it be heat, whether it be cold, whether it be something in your surroundings. Maybe it’s somebody playing their music too loud next to your cubicle or area. It could be that there’s somebody on a lawn mower outside that’s buggy or a leaf blower or something, so it is best to minimize those distractions so that you can focus. Distractions are key to your ability to stay focused on your task. As they say, “You better be careful what you wish for because your wish may become your reality.” Focusing is a matter of asserting yourself on the task and not being affected by your external factors, whether it be thinking about something at home that you’ve got to take care of.
You might be thinking about, for example, that you’ve got a bunch of company coming over after work and you start thinking about getting that organized, or maybe it’s a problem with one of your children, and maybe a problem with a spouse. It could be a number thing. Maybe it’s your boss. I found out in my 37 years of running Micrel that 75% of the reasons that employees leave to go to another job is because of their boss. Their boss becomes their distraction. They look over your shoulder, or if they’re constantly harassing you, or if they’re bothering you in some way, or if they’re not being fair, that sort of thing. That’s a distraction, and that keeps you from focusing on your task at hand and minimizes your ability to accomplish the task at hand.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. I guess, the idea is you said, “Be careful what you wish for.” You also want to be able to wish for the best so that you can generally expect that the best will be what the outcome is.
Ray Zinn: Absolutely. Well, again, your ability to focus is the key, and you should know what the distractions are because if you have a job you’re doing and you’re becoming distracted in some way, find out what that distraction is. It doesn’t take, but a few seconds to say, “This is bothering me, something is distracting me,” whatever it is. Maybe it’s just the noise in your work area, it might be the environmental, maybe it’s cold or hot, or it could be any number of things, it could be an employee or a workmate that’s giving you a problem. So just focus on what’s distracting you so that you can get it out, you can solve it. Again, distractions are the thing that keep you from minimizing your performance.
Rob Artigo: I’d like to remind the listeners that they can join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Please bring us your questions, comments are always welcome, let us know. We do have some podcasts on toughthingsfirst.com that take you to the video podcasts at Ray’s YouTube channel, so you can check that out and tell us which way you prefer to listen. If you like the podcasts that are on video, we would appreciate knowing that. Ray, of course, you can follow his, it used to be called Twitter, but now X and his other social media, Facebook, LinkedIn and of course, Ray’s books. Make sure you check them out if you haven’t already. Tough Things First is the title of his first book. We have the Zen of Zinn Series one, two, and three, and the upcoming book, The Essential Leadership, which is I think, going to be very helpful for a lot of people. Thanks again, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.
YouTube and TikTok users know this all too well. Fact: We live in a more isolated work environment, often at home, in our own little space, with what seems like a lot more to accomplish. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses “creator burnout”, why it happens, and how to deal with it. (Watch the video podcast here…)
Rob Artigo: Ray, a lot of talk lately and Congress took some action on this is, is the possibility of banning TikTok, and or forcing a sale of TikTok. Now, this podcast isn’t really about that, but one of the side stories that I happen to notice was something called creator burnout. We have these video influencer types that are on these platforms and they spend so much time doing all the work, putting in the… because really, it’s a individual responsibility.You’re going to have some kind of channel on one of these platforms, and you’ve got to do the work. You’ve got to actually do work, and that includes the recording, the editing, you’re writing it, and somebody said that, actually, it’s like storyboarding what you’re going to do, and all the other tasks that are associated with the process. And there’s, apparently, depression that ensues among many of these people, and they even have mental health problems. So let’s talk about creator burnout. Is there a kind of creator burnout that can occur in other tech industries or any industry really, where people have to put in a lot of time and effort in a creative endeavor? I mean, we have creative teams in these things. Silicon Chip Design, for one, I know they have teams of people that do certain tasks in that, and it can be pretty tedious in the creative process.
Ray Zinn: Well, it goes to the saying that if you love what you do, you don’t work a day of your life. And there’s another one which is counter to that, which is, no pain, no gain. But if you do enjoy what you’re doing, you won’t have burnout. I write every day, I write thousands of musings. I’m on my fifth book, yeah, on my fifth book. And so creator burnout really becomes when you lose interest in what you’re doing, when it no longer becomes enjoyable. It can happen in sports. Forgotten now that somebody just retired because it was burnout.
Ray Zinn: Cont.
He was getting burned out. He’s a well-known football coach, extremely well-known. And so you can get burned out in politics. There’s a guy recently leaving the Congress because… I think his name is Buck or something like that, because you get burned out. If you’re no longer enjoying what you’re doing, you will burn out. So I think the key here is if you continue to enjoy what you’re doing, whether you’re doing design, whether you’re doing nursing, whether you’re doing teaching, whatever the field of endeavor you’re involved with, you’re going to experience burnout if you don’t enjoy it. Again, if you enjoy what you’re doing, you won’t work a day in your life.
Rob Artigo: It seems that if you stop enjoying what you’re doing and you face some burnout is maybe you got to pivot and do something else. Can we-
Ray Zinn: Absolutely. Pivoting is another thing, obviously. I don’t care, as I said, if you’re a politician, if you’re a football coach, a sports coach, or if you’re an athlete, or if you’re involved in running a company, I know that the average tenure of a CEO is around five years, no, three to five years, three to five years. And the reason for that is because of burnout. And it may not be burnout being a CEO, it may be a burnout in being a CEO at the endeavor at the company that you’re involved with. So again, it doesn’t matter if you’re an engineer or a teacher or a coach or whatever, an athlete, if you cease to enjoy what you’re doing, you’re going to get burned out.
Rob Artigo: Well, sometimes I would suspect that people don’t recognize that, that is what’s behind their feelings of burnout and some of these issues, like the mental health problems and the depression and that sort of thing. And bringing it back to a creative team, say, for silicon chip manufacturing, is there a way to recognize when a team member is suffering from burnout or facing burnout that they maybe don’t even recognize is occurring, but their actions or behavior seem to reflect a lack of motivation and desire to continue doing the job?
Ray Zinn: Yeah, that’s the key subject, is how do you recognize employee burnout? Number one is they’re going to make more mistakes. Their interest is going to flounder, they’re going to take more time off. They’re going to be sick more. Just look for a change in their behavior, maybe they’re going to be more disgruntled, more upset, more looking for excuses, as you would. So again, they’re a disgruntled employee, whether it be burnout or for whatever reason, their telltale signs are, they’re going to be more angry, more upset, more disenchanted. And so that’s the key to knowing when one of your employees is on the edge, as you would’ve, of burning out.
Rob Artigo: Can we prevent it in our teams?
Ray Zinn: Well, it’s a psychological thing. It’s up to the individual. You can help them by just understanding what they’re going through, maybe it’s a divorce, maybe it’s a problem at home. It might be financial. It could be a number of things which are outside the issue at work. It may have nothing to do with work. It may just be something that their personal involvement outside of work is causing the problem. So again, when I was running my crown, I did a lot of managing by walking around and talking to people, and then talking to their managers, supervisors, trying to understand how their team is doing.
And we constantly run across people who are going through a bad problem at home, a bad home life, as you would, or a personal life. It has nothing to do with the company, but there are occasions where there’s an issue at the company with the either pay, or could be the job description, it could be that they’re struggling with the particular tasks that they’re doing, but more likely than not that I have found, it’s more personal, it’s more problems outside of work, is what’s causing their issues with regard to burnout.
Rob Artigo:
And reversing it is another thing. And perhaps doing something like tweaking… you said the job description, maybe something like tweaking the person’s responsibilities within the team so that they’re doing more of the stuff that they really want to be doing and less of the stuff that they are struggling with, and maybe that will lift them out of the burnout process.
Ray Zinn: Well, again, remember, Rob, I was just saying that most of the time, I found that 75 to 80% of the time, it’s a personal, it’s not involving work. It’s not a work problem, it’s a personal problem. And they cause more problems than at work. So while I wouldn’t ignore or minimize something that might be happening at work, I certainly would look elsewhere. I just find out how their personal life is going. And as I said, nine times out of 10, or eight out of 10, anyway, it’s usually involving a personal problem that they’re facing. And that’s not something that you can solve particularly other than maybe asking them to take a little personal leave or maybe just encouraging them to seek counseling in some way.
I mean, again, depending upon the problem they’re facing, that changes the solution. But anyway, as I said, eight times out of 10, or at least my experience is 75 to 80% of the time, it’s a personal problem, not a work problem. And again, back to your starting comments about the TikTok and creative burnout, what’s happening is that they’re expecting more from their efforts than they’re getting. So it’s an exaggerated view of their expectations, and that causes discouragement. We’re referring, again, to people who are doing creative work on TikTok or Facebook or X or whatever, or LinkedIn. If they’re not getting the reward that they expect, that causes them burnout, as you would. I know it sounds securus, but that’s what’s happening, is that they’re not getting the reward that they were expecting.
Rob Artigo: That makes sense because we have, in many cases, what they call, the gig economy, where people are doing these… maybe working from home and they’re doing piecemeal work for something, and we use Rev.com just to plug the service we use to get our transcripts done for the podcast. They send it out to somebody and that person edits, they write it up and edit it, whatever, they transcribe the audio. I think it’s probably done by computer first, and then they go through and work it up. That person might be getting paid okay, but in some cases, the gig economy ends up being, if you work it out, it’s sometimes like pennies on the dollar for what you’re… that’s where you’re going to face the depression, is that, man, this is a lot of work and I’m not getting anything for it.
Ray Zinn: Well, it’s unrealistic expectations, is what causes these kinds of problems. So maybe it’s something you thought you would enjoy because it sounded good or paid well or something, and then you found out that your expectations were unrealistic. And so I think that’s the other issue that they face, is having a unrealistic expectation. I’ve talked to a few people that are involved in this media effort, whether it be marketing or whatever, they’re doing some kind of creative editing or whatever, that they’re losing interest in it, maybe they’ve grown tired of it, maybe it’s not a challenge for them, or maybe they just feel they’re not being properly rewarded for the efforts they’re putting in. Unrealistic expectation is what I call it.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, I appreciate you being with me for this great video podcast. Our listeners can choose between the audio version or the video version. You can come back and check out both. But those of you who have checked this out on YouTube and enjoyed this video, please rate the podcast wherever you are and make sure that you let people know that you’re listening, and even share the link for this stuff. This is quality information that helps a lot of people in business out. So thanks, Ray. This is great. And I should remind people, toughthingsfirst.com is where you have your blogs, links to all of your social media, and also, you can find out more information about your books. You mentioned Tough Things First, and the Zen of Zinn series, there’s three books there. We have the upcoming Essential Leadership, which is going to be a fantastic book, and I hope people will be around to experience and enjoy that book as well. Thanks for the great conversation, Ray?
Ray Zinn: Also, let us know if you enjoy the podcast compared to the audio. I know some of you are on your way to work, you listen to the podcast, and so the video wouldn’t help. But for those of you who are able to view the podcast as a video, please let us know if you prefer the video over the audio so we’ll know where your interests lie and what seems to stimulate you more, whether it be just the plain audio or if you prefer the video. So let us know on that too. Please respond and give us that feedback. Thank you.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, any feedback that they can provide would be great as well. I mean, do they want longer podcasts? Do they want shorter podcasts? That kind of thing, or if you have a topic that you’d like us to discuss, please chime in and let us know.
Ray Zinn: Thank you.
Rob Artigo: Great conversation, Ray. Thanks.
Diversity, equity, and inclusion has supplanted merit as an important decision tool in hiring for many companies, but has it helped or hurt businesses and employees? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explores fundamental truths about fairness, that DEI has set aside.
Rob Artigo: Well, because of all this talk about DEI, that’s the diversity, equity and inclusion stuff that’s been out there, some feel like merit-based hiring is unfair. And you’ve written recently about this, so I wanted to talk to you about it. So let’s see, you wrote that in life, almost everything we do is merit-based. Tell us more about that, and we’ll get started with that part of this topic.
Ray Zinn: Well, what’s interesting is I recently heard that some states are considering doing away with the law exam or the bar exam for lawyers, just to make it easier for certain people to be able to practice before the court. And so again, this DEI thing is getting totally out of hand. We’re almost not going to measure anything anymore. It’s kind of a sad commentary on our society that in order for us to standardize everything so that it doesn’t become difficult for anyone that we lose that ability to differentiate. Even the SAT tests are coming back, they’re bringing back the SAT tests, but they’re making it so it’s easier for certain people to pass them. So, this whole thing of making sure that there is total fairness makes it unfair, as you would. And going to my musing that I wrote, everything is based on fairness. I mean, on merit.
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Ray Zinn: Merit, on merit-based, whether it be looking for a spouse, whether it be the food you eat, whether it be where you live, whether the job you have, you’re looking for something that matches your desire.
I’m not a real fan of liver. I can’t stand liver, so if people say, “Well, but in order to be fair, you have to eat liver.” That’s going to gag me, and I’m not going to enjoy that experience at all, and so, not enjoying life is a tragedy. And so, making everybody the same, we all wear the same clothes, we all marry … we don’t have a choice of our spouse, we don’t have a choice of the schools we go to, we don’t have a choice of where we work or we live, that doesn’t sound like a very fun kind of society. So, I think that not recognizing or understanding how our ability to differentiate, to be able to measure what we want and discriminate as you would, is going to cause a problem.
Discrimination has its positive attributes and it has its negative attributes. On the negative side, of course, we know what discrimination does. It’s a bias that we have to understand. Whether it be a racial, sexual, whether it be religious or political, we have to understand where we’re discriminating. And so, we really have to vote our thinking, vote how we feel … or measure how we feel or vote, same thing. And so it has to go to what we like and what we expect. That’s how society works together. It’s not a matter of whether we agree or not, it’s whether we’re agreeable, so having a disagreement is not the problem. It’s being disagreeable. That’s the problem.
So, what we want to make sure is that while we don’t necessarily have to agree on everything, we want to be agreeable, meaning we want to be amenable to hear other people’s views and feelings and respect those, because there are a lot of people that like liver. I mean, my dad loved liver. And so if I said, “Well, because I don’t like liver, we’re not going to ever have any more liver,” that’s not being fair. So, we have to understand that not everyone is going to have the same set of attributes or views that we have. It’s a matter of fairness as you would to allow other people to have their views, even though they don’t agree or they’re not in line with your views.
Rob Artigo: One of the sticking points with DEI is the idea of equity rather than equality. What we have is a concept of fairness, whereas, and you mentioned the SAT, in other aspects of DEI where they bring in elements of inequality and unfairness in the name of fairness and equity. So, it gets confusing and it’s also problematic, because it creates more problems than it fixes. Am I right?
Ray Zinn: Sure. Let’s take an example of education. We know that Harvard or Stanford, Yale, some of the well-known schools, charge a whole lot more for their education. In other words, their entry costs, their tuition, and maybe even just the living expenses are higher than they are at some of the state schools, like San Jose State or West Virginia or whatever, or Colorado State or Utah State. The state schools are a lot less expensive, and junior colleges are even less expensive. And so, is that fair for those bigger schools, like Stanford or Yale, Harvard, is it fair for them to charge more money? And the answer is, that depends upon how you view fairness. If they have to pay their professors more money than they do at the junior colleges, that raises their costs for that education.
What is considered fair? And so, if you look at it in light of what it costs them to provide that education and the intrinsic value of that education, it’s going to be much more money than at the junior college level. And so you have to say, “Is that fair?” The answer is, “Yes, it’s fair if you do that comparison.” And so, if you had a bachelor’s degree in, say, fine arts or something from Stanford, you’re going to pay 10 times what you would pay for a fine arts degree at a state school. And so, that may sound unfair, but it’s still what it costs them to produce that education, or to provide that education.
Same thing with cars. Is it fair that a Mercedes or a BMW costs more than a less expensive car like a Kia? And yes, if it costs more to produce the Mercedes and BMW, and just the intrinsic value that you get for having that more expensive car, it’s fair. It’s not fair for Kia to charge the same amount of money that Mercedes or BMW does. And the same thing with foods. There are certain foods that you pay more money for, like a rib eye steak compared to a hamburger, because it’s the intrinsic value you get out of that rib eye versus that hamburger. Is that fair? Yes, it’s fair because it’s that intrinsic value you get from it.
Going back to education, if you feel that you need that education provided by Stanford or Yale or Harvard or whatever, MIT, if you think it’s worth it, then you’re going to pay more money. If you don’t think it’s worth it, then go to a state school. You’ll get similar education. You may not have the intrinsic value of that, quote, unquote, “Oh, I went to Stanford,” or “I went to Harvard,” or “I went to Yale.” You can’t say that. “Oh, I went to Colorado State,” or “I went to Utah State,” or “I went to Arizona State,” that doesn’t have the same ring, just like driving a car. “Oh, I drive a Mercedes” or a BMW, versus, “Oh, I drive a Kia.” I mean, it’s fair in that sense of the word, but doing this diversity, equity, and inclusion is to minimize the fairness as you would. So it’s unfair in my mind, it’s unfair to do diversity, equity, and inclusion, because you lose the intrinsic value of the differentiation, whether it be in clothing, whether it be in food, whether it be in cars, housing.
Is it fair to charge $2 million for a house in one area or part of town and $600,000 in another part of town? Yes, it’s fair, if that’s the intrinsic value that property brings. But if you put everything at $600,000, and that’s the maximum that you can pay for a house, sooner or later, that’s going to be unfair. Do you see what I’m saying? So again, I’m not trying to minimize the importance of discriminating unethically, unethical discrimination, in other words, where you’re holding somebody’s head to the fire for something that is not logical. For example, if a kindergartner was going to Stanford, they wouldn’t do well, so that’s not fair. And so, you can’t expect a kindergartner to do well at Stanford or at any higher education place. So, we have to keep it so we don’t discriminate as you would, but we differentiate. So we’re differentiating, and that’s what I like to use, the word differentiate versus discriminate. Does that make sense, Rob, about let’s differentiate, not discriminate?
Rob Artigo: Yeah. And the bottom line is that it used to be just common sense to treat people fairly and equally, and give people an equal chance and hire the best, surround yourself with the best people. And now, in a lot of workplaces, it’s just been replaced.
Well, let me wrap this up. This is a fast-growing podcast. Ray, as you know, rated one of the top in Silicon Valley. We’d like to keep that up, so listeners, please go to your podcast source, rate the podcast, make sure that we’re getting some traction, more traction out there, and share the links to the podcast as well with other people so that we can grow the audience and spread the word with Ray Zinn’s knowledge. Also, check out Ray’s … Oh, yeah, go ahead.
Ray Zinn: Remember, differentiate, don’t discriminate.
Rob Artigo: Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: That’s the bottom line of this podcast.
Rob Artigo: Please also check out Ray’s books. You can differentiate between Zen of Zinn I, II, and III, then you can choose those. Also, check out Tough Things First, the book. That’s the original book that set all this in motion, and we’d love for you to read that. It’s a great series, the Zen of Zinn as well, so Zen of Zinn series, and those books are available. We look forward to the next time, Ray. Thanks.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.
Clashes in the streets are never pretty, and Ray Zinn says they never really do much other than cause more division and anger. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray lays out why protests are negative by nature, but are they evil?
Rob Artigo: It seems like we’ve spent the better part of the last seven years in some state of ongoing protest by one group or another. Got a big group out there right now in various cities doing who knows what, blocking freeways, access to airports, what have you. Typically pretty small groups. I mean, they look big in the areas that they’re congregating, but they’re not particularly a large percentage of the American population. They’re typically pretty small. But they’re very vocal. They’re sometimes violent. They’re kind of a patchwork of causes or cause du jour. You’ve written that you think that protests just in general are evil. Can you explain that?
Ray Zinn: Well, yeah, because a protest is evil. Anything that doesn’t uplift is evil. So you have to say, “Okay, what are you protesting about?” You’re protesting about something that you disagree with or that you feel strong about or whatever. And unfortunately it’s anger. I never heard of what they say they call friendly protest. I don’t know what a friendly protest is. I mean, I don’t think it can possibly be friendly, a protest.
Rob Artigo: Also, peaceful protest is another term they use.
Ray Zinn: Peaceful, okay. Peaceful.
Rob Artigo: Which ends up not being peaceful most of the time.
Ray Zinn: Well, I don’t know what peaceful would be. The only time I’m have peace is when I have joy and happiness in my heart. I don’t feel peace at all when I’m upset. And so peaceful protest is kind of an oxymoron. I mean, by definition, you can’t be peaceful or you wouldn’t be protesting. So again, we need to define what is peace? Peace is have joy and happiness. That’s what peace is. So then why are you protesting? If you’re happy and you have joy, then what’s the reason of the protest? Protest means you don’t have happiness and joy. So it’s kind of an oxymoron to say it’s peaceful. Let’s don’t kid ourselves. Protests are evil. They’re evil. And anybody that does protest, examine their reasons, their feelings, and they’ll see they’re filled with anger and hatred and animosity. They’re not filled with happiness and joy. That’s what peaceful is. Peaceful is happiness and joy.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, I mean, if the person you talk to that’s going to protest or coming out of a protest, sometimes that’s all there is, is the anger and hatred part. They don’t even really care about what the reason for the group protest is. They’re just out there to express their anger and hatred. And they have no solution. They don’t care about the solution. They only care about getting out there and raging.
Ray Zinn: Well, they’re yelling and screaming. And you know that when you’re peaceful, you’re not yelling and screaming. You’re smiling, you’re happy, you’ve got a smile on your face. I don’t see any protestors out there with smiles on their faces. All I see is their fist in the air, they’re destroying property. They’re putting signs up that negative. They’re terrible signs. They don’t uplift anybody. They’re negative. Ever seen a negative protest? Or, excuse me. Ever seen a positive protest sign? I doubt it.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, like, “Go us,” or something. One thing that I’ve noticed about protests in these recent years is that they seem to have lingered. And in American cities around the country, we see the remnants of those ongoing. I mean, sometimes the protests were like a year long and they would just destroy downtowns, attack police stations. And then they kind of took over parts of downtown that are blighted and tent cities and signs and no-go zones and things like that. People used to do protests over the weekend and then after that they went away.
Ray Zinn: Yeah. One of the reasons we did this podcast is because we’re trying to see how much hate mail we get.
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Ray Zinn: Well, that’ll define again, that’ll make our point, won’t it?
Rob Artigo: Yeah, exactly.
Ray Zinn: As opposed to ones that will agree with us. I think there’s more people are going to disagree than agree, because that’s the hatred side.
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Ray Zinn: Because we’re hitting their hot button. “Well, wait a minute, I want higher wages, or I want this or I want that.” It says, “I want,.” It’s I, I, I, I, I and there’s no I in team, so there’s no team spirit. There’s, “I want this, I want that.” So again, we hope that you take this particular podcast in the right frame of mind. Again, the purpose was to talk about peaceful protests, no such thing.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, but there’s a peaceful way of going about things too. I mean, if you feel like you want to change a law or end a law or you want society to go in a kind of different direction, there’s a way to do that, and there’s a system in place for doing those kinds of things, and all you have to do is go work within the system. But it’s a majority rule country.
Ray Zinn: Well, the key is peaceful.
Rob Artigo: The idea is be peaceful. Get people to come onto your side.
Ray Zinn: Yeah, be positive. Don’t be negative.
Rob Artigo: Get 51% and then make your change. But if you’re 2% of the population and you’re out destroying things to get your way, sometimes that works because the people go, “Okay, well, we’re just going to surrender to you.”
Ray Zinn: Or fear. It’s fear. It’s fear.
Rob Artigo: Fear, right. Out of fear. Or in the idea that if we just do this, they’ll go away, kind of thing is, no, I think they just come back and do more. I think it’s a selfish avenue for getting something done when you have an avenue for getting things done peacefully.
Ray Zinn: Right. There’s no such thing as a peaceful protest. I want to say it again. No such a thing as a peaceful protest.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, for our listeners, we have all these avenues for people coming in and supporting the Tough Things First Podcast. They can go to toughthingsfirst.com and find links to your social media, but they can also go to their favorite podcast platform, probably the one they’re listening to now, and just click like, rate the podcast, do what you will. We know that a lot of people are listening to this podcast in Silicon Valley. It has always been, since its inception, a fast-growing podcast. And top rated in Silicon Valley, so be part of it, continue to be part of it, by rating this podcast on your favorite platform. Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn:
Thanks, Rob.
In life and business decisions must be made, but they do not always have to be hard decisions if you are prepared. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explores a list of lessons learned that can help you be ahead of the game.
Rob Artigo: Well, I was reading a Forbes piece. It had some experts, and these are 20 tech leaders who shared their lessons from some difficult projects that they had, so they didn’t explain the projects in general, but they said we had a really difficult project. I guess that could be anything from rolling out a product to developing a product or what have you, but they weren’t specific on it. What they did was they offered a few things that you can learn from difficult projects.
Ray Zinn: Or what they learned or what they learned from-
Rob Artigo: What they learned, and I guess the idea is that you could consider these things when you were approaching.
Ray Zinn: Rob before we start that list, even in life, in other words, what you can learn from a difficult situation, whether it be an accident, whether it be an illness, whether it be some other loss of a loved one. These are the difficult lessons that we can take away in life, but the ones you’re going to read refer more to company kind of issues, difficult company problems, which is fine, but I want everyone to know that these apply to life in general.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, you can definitely edit and adjust to make it fit whatever you need to deal with.
Ray Zinn: Any difficult situation.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, so in looking at this list here, I mean there are 20, so I will tell you that if you go to forbes.com and look for this, you can find the whole list. So, we’ll let Forbes handle the whole list for you. We’ll just pull out a full bullet, a few bullet points here and give Forbes credit for having given us some inspiration to take a look at this stuff here. When looking at a, I guess, a product rollout, I’m guessing here, but along these lines is the first one is don’t scale your team too quickly. I guess that means that you don’t want to build faster than you need to because you-
Ray Zinn: Or that you can grow, don’t scale faster than you can grow or to consume it. It’s like how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time, right? Don’t try to eat the whole elephant in the same setting. It goes to, again, almost any struggle or difficulty project you’re undertaking. Don’t take on more than you can chew.
Rob Artigo: I thought you were going to say, “How do you eat an elephant?” Head first, or something like that. But how about number two or B, if you will, identifying the unknowns early on. I guess going into it, you want as few mysteries as possible.
Ray Zinn: Yeah, so kind of understand whether it be a marriage or whether it be a project you’re starting or whether it be a company, understand what you’re getting yourself into. Be prepared for that. Other words, know all the pros and cons. I had this rule it when I was running my Micrel semiconductor, I had to rule it for every pro you have to have a con. It’s like when you flip a coin, flip a coin is half of its heads, half of its tails. So, half the time you’re going to have pros, and half the time you’re going to have cons, and so let’s find them. Let’s identify the cons. We’re real good at identifying the pros, everybody. I mean, that’s how you start a project. You’re all enthusiastic and excited, and so you can come up with all kinds of reasons why you want to take on that project, whether it be a project or a company or a spouse or a home or anything.
What you want to do, look at the pros and cons. Okay, so a pro of course is the advantage. This is why I want to do it, and as we know Rob, those are the easy ones to come up with. What the difficult ones to come up with are the cons, because we don’t want to talk ourselves out of the project or the relationship, so we tend to try to ignore the cons. If you ignore something, what’s your chances are going to happen? You’re going to get hurt, not wearing a seatbelt. You say, “Well, how often will I get into an accident?” Well, until you do, you wish you had worn your seatbelt. So, it’s again, look at the reasons why your project may not succeed or your relationship might not succeed. You got to look at all the downside and make sure they’re equal. Equal number of pros, equal number of cons. Don’t con yourself into only having pros. How’s that one, Rob?
Rob Artigo: Oh, I love it. And yeah, of course if you have all pros, then you’re just into confirmation bias and exactly just telling yourself lies. All right, so the next one is make sure that you have the right people for the project.
Ray Zinn: Again, this can go to a marriage relationship, could go to a company, could go to a product. Make sure that you’re heading in the right direction. Again, it is key to identify what it is you want. In other words, what is your expectations? What problem are you trying to solve? And if you’re just being cavalier about your project or the company you’re starting or whatever relationship that’s going to come back to bite you because you haven’t looked at what your objectives are, in other words, what is you trying to solve? Don’t solve something that doesn’t need to be solved.
Rob Artigo: Also, I guess it says prioritize expert guidance. Make sure that you’re prioritizing your expert guidance.
Ray Zinn: I hate to keep only bringing up marriage relationship, but it goes to what we’re talking about. So in the US, divorces are about what? 50% to 60% marriage end up in divorce. Whereas in India, the divorce rates is only 94% or 95%, and the reason is because the parents help the individual find the right partner. So, those are the experts. Believe it or not, your parents know you better than you do, so they help out. They want the best for you. If they love you, they want the best for you. So, you want to make sure your experts are really on your side, whether it be you’re starting a company or whether it be your product that you want to do.
Again, I had this group that had to have at least six people in it that would analyze your project and give you their opinion of that project, and you had to get unanimous agreement among your 16 members or the project wouldn’t go. We called it the product definition committee. So again, whether you’re running a company or starting a project or finding a spouse, get some people around you you trust that will give you guidance that will help you decide on the value of what you’re doing.
Rob Artigo: Outline the project scope and SMART objectives. I don’t know, maybe that one’s a little too esoteric for us. Outline the project scope. Let’s go with that. I guess understanding what the objective is.
Ray Zinn: Well, we did, we talked about that just prior, so then maybe that’s one we’re just going to kind of glean over a gloss over because it is very similar to what we just talked about. Have the right goal in mind when you go into a relationship or a product or a company, make sure your goals match.
Rob Artigo: And then bouncing off of that is set your expectations carefully.
Ray Zinn: That’s an interesting, that goes back again, this all could be summarized down to its pros and cons, okay? You have to expect difficulty, you have to expect challenges. What happens, Rob, is we expect everything to go hunky door, everything to be perfect, wonderful, nothing ever to happen, everything ever to go wrong, but that’s just nonsense. Anybody that’s lived more than 12 years knows that you’re going to have difficulties, okay? And that’s just the nature of life mortality is that you’re going to run into problems. So, when you manage your expectations, make sure they include the cons, the reasons that things will fail, then you’re ready. You’re prepared. So, that’s the main thing, is to be prepared. That’s the scout motto, isn’t it? Be prepared. So, you want to get prepared for whatever happens. It is really the ones that fail are the ones that are just not prepared or for problems, and so they’re not managing their expectations because they’re ignoring the difficulties that they’re going to experience.
Rob Artigo: Again, that’s forbes.com. I’ll just tell you it’s Expert Insights 20 Tech Leaders Share Lessons From Difficult Projects, so if you want to check that out, go ahead. Thanks again, Forbes. Appreciate it. This is the fast-growing podcast for Silicon Valley. A lot of people are listening to it and we’d like you to rate it at your favorite podcast platform. Please also check out Ray’s books, the Zen of Zinn 1, 2, and 3. Also, Tough Things First. I look forward to the next time, Ray.
Ray Zinn: I do too. Thanks, Rob.
The ups and downs you feel about how quickly or slowly you are getting ahead are not imaginary, but if you are waiting for some magic, government, pixie dust, for a boost out of a downturn well… In this podcast, Ray Zinn ponders the question, should you be relying on the government or yourself for your prosperity?
Rob Artigo: Well, there is this term floating around lately called Unleash Prosperity. There are actually these committees, these nonprofit groups that have popped up to go around and promote Unleash Prosperity. I think it’s really just a money generating scheme in many cases, but they call it Unleash Prosperity, and it sounds really positive and optimistic, and the idea is how to help the government make you prosperous. Give me an idea what you think about this. I know you wrote a little bit about it, so give me some thoughts.
Ray Zinn: Unleashing prosperity is really something you have to do for yourself, otherwise you’re relying on the government to help you become prosperous. So again, the focus should be unleashing your prosperity, not unleashing prosperity kind of “general prosperity.” If we’re going to be successful, we have to take control of our own prosperity.
Rob Artigo: Well, you put together a little list here, just a really short one of some of the basic rules you can follow if really what you’re after is unleashing your prosperity, so that you’re doing it yourself and not relying on the government, because it could take a gazillion years for something to trickle down to you through the government, but you need to take action now in unleashing your prosperity.
So the first one here, Ray, is most economic cycles last about three to five years. So calendar, the beginning of each cycle and get prepared for one and a half to two years or one to two years in advance. That make sense?
Ray Zinn: An economic cycle does last about three to five years, whether it be a downturn or an upturn. So what you need to do, ’cause it’s going to happen, is sure as leaves fall from the tree during fall, you’re going to get an economic downturn or an economic upturn. So each cycle, and there’s a whole host of reasons why we have economic cycles, because it’s just like what we call the ups and downs of life. Flipping a coin, there’s a 50/50 chance you’re a head or 50/50 chance you have a tail.
Good times don’t last forever and bad times won’t last forever, and that’s called what we refer to as Newton’s First Law of Economics. Again, Dr. Newton, he’s the one that says for every action you have one direction, you have an equal and opposite in the other, and so that’s what we talk about in Newton’s First Law of Economics. For every upturn, you have a downturn, otherwise you wouldn’t have a cycle.
So a cycle is kind of like a sinusoidal wave in a circuit, there’s going to be a peak and then there’s going to be a valley. That’s when we talk about a cycle is that from peak to trough is usually three to five years. What we want to do is get prepared for that, and to get prepared for it look one to two years ahead. So in other words, when you see an economic cycle peak or bottom, depending upon which side we’re talking about, get ready.
If we’re at the top of the cycle, we can see that in one to two years we’re going to be in the bottom. In other words, we’re going to be in a bad side. So when you have the money, when you have the peak of the cycle, don’t believe the trees grow all the way to heaven, otherwise they’re not going to last forever. So save some money, get ready for it and get ready in advance, and the same thing with the bottom.
When the bottom hits, be ready for it, ’cause there’s going to be an upturn, so you want to get ready for the peak of the cycle or the bottom of the cycle. So, knowing that they last three to five years will help you actually increase your prosperity. That’s what that first bullet meant.
Rob Artigo: Well, number two says, and this is obviously how you would imagine in that three to five year cycle, is to have cash reserves of at least 15% of your average living expenses as a buffer during those times when it dips.
Ray Zinn: Yeah, so if you think about the peak and trough of a cycle, it’s usually about a 15%. Meaning you’re going to have increase in expenses during an upcycle and 15% decrease in the bottom of the cycle, so get ready for it. By doing it, you’ll have that buffer that you put it in savings when things are good. They say when there’s a good harvest, reap the harvest, okay? So don’t just spend it, reap it, put it in storage, put it in a savings account or put it in an investment that’ll help you when the cycle reverses and it goes into bad times. So it’s very important to have that buffer, and so we’ll call it the zen buffer. You want that zen buffer to hold you over when the cycle goes down.
I recently read an article that said during this past year that the debt index for consumers has gone up dramatically, like gone up almost 15%, the actual what we call the debt index. We’re piling on debt. Debt’s expensive, because you have to pay interest on it, and so debt never sleeps. Every minute you’re in bed sleeping, your debt’s still increasing because of interest. So get ready, get that 15% buffer stashed away. If you can do more, do more, but you want a minimum of 15%.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, and if you have that 15%, and then if you don’t have that debt overhead where you’re servicing with the high interest rates right now, that 15% in savings could be earning you interest. So somebody’s paying you interest instead of you paying interest, and that is a guaranteed net positive. Debt will never help you out in the long run, because you just end up paying somebody else when you should be the one getting paid. Number three here. During an economic downturn limit your expenses primarily to necessities.
Ray Zinn: The reason the debt index has gone up so high is ’cause people, because unemployment was down or low, they thought things were good times, but inflation’s high and things cost more, and so you’re buying things at a very costly time. So, what you want to do is make sure you only spend your money on necessities. This is during a down cycle now we’re referring to.
So in a downturn, don’t go out and just buy these discretionary items like cars and vacation homes or trips or whatever, expensive appliances. Don’t spend your money on non-unnecessary items. That’s the worst time for you to do it, because your credit card debt’s going to go up, your interest rate’s going to pile on, and you’re going to be in a bankrupt situation when this bottom hits on the recession.
Now, they’re talking about a soft landing in 2024. I don’t know what a soft landing is. I mean, does it mean that you don’t die when you hit the ground? I mean, soft landing is relative. I mean, I don’t know how soft your bones can take the hit, as you would. I’m not sure any kind of landing is a good landing unless you got a lot of strength. In other words, if you’re just jumping off of a seven-foot step, maybe unless you got some serious bone problem, you can easily withstand a seven-inch step when you jump off of it.
But realize that soft landing is a relative term and 2024 is not going to be as good as 2023, and for a lot of reasons. Number one, the interest rate I don’t believe is going to come down to below 3% down in a one and a half to two. I don’t believe that’s going to happen for another two, three years, so you’re going to be talking interest rates, they’re going to be north of 3%, 3.5%. Even if the Fed begins to drop them 25 basis points per quarter, it will take a while to get that interest rate down to below 2%. You really can’t tolerate interest rates much above 3.5%, 4%, ’cause that’s just going to eat right into your equity, into your balance sheet, so be careful.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, and then bottom line is, I think number four makes sense all the way across the board, whether good times or bad times, economically the idea is to be frugal.
Ray Zinn: Live within your means, that’s what that one is. Live within your means. Do not borrow, borrowing is bad. Maybe you have to borrow to buy a house, maybe a car, but that’s it. Borrowing on anything else besides a house or a car is ridiculous, even student debt. I tell my grandkids, I’m helping them financially to degree I can, and I tell them, “Don’t take on debt. Do not take on debt, debt is the worst thing.”
I know the banks don’t like me to say that, but I will tell you, debt is as bad as it gets. It’s ugly. If you can think of the worst stomach ache you’ve ever had or the worst flu you’ve ever had, just think of debt as that. Debt is your worst nightmare. Do not go into debt, except maybe for a home or maybe a car, but that’s it. Not two cars, not three cars, not a better refrigerator, not a better washer, dryer or whatever, or vacation. Forget it. Do not go into debt. If you have the money, that’s different, but using your credit card is just really the kiss of death. So, you heard it from me. I’m telling you, I promise you debt will eat you alive.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, and even in the best terms for a credit card, you’re paying over 15%, you’re probably paying more like 18.5%, close to 19% or 20%. Like you said, once you get that up to a few thousand bucks, you’re just chasing your tail and going to be hating it.
Anyway, join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions and comments always welcome. Follow Ray Zinn on X, Facebook, at LinkedIn, and of course Ray’s Books, Tough Things First, the big original book, and Zen of Zinn one, two, and three. Check out the books. Thanks again, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.
Ai continues to make headlines and alter the way we think about art and plagiarism, and even the law. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses the diverging lines between what is your creative endeavor and what has no copyright at all. (What we discuss here is anecdotal, based on news reports, and should not be construed as legal advance. Always, consult a lawyer.)
Rob Artigo: Well, as a writer, the subject of copyright comes up, something that’s copyrighted, and plagiarism has been in the news a lot lately-
Ray Zinn: Yes. Big time, yeah.
Rob Artigo: … and defining what plagiarism is. And I wonder, when I’m looking at AI, where does AI get its content? If I create an AI-generated article, apparently, it can’t be copyrighted, but where does the material come from?
Ray Zinn: Well, AI is really a buzzword that it’s getting a lot of press. There’s a lot of concern about it. Just the other day, the government was getting concerned about AI chips going into China, and they’ve had to modify the capability of the AI chip, like what we do when we’re talking about a GPS. The military, they have GPS that goes down to a couple, two or three feet.
Then you have the commercial GPS which is good to maybe 100 feet, and then you get the… Anybody can have it, which is maybe good to a quarter mile kind of thing. So GPS is all controlled by the government. In other words, they say what the standard is. AI is the same way. Artificial intelligence is very similar to global positioning satellite or GPS, and it is “controlled by the government,” and it’s all created by semiconductor chips and software. That really defines what the capability of AI is.
So there’s all different levels of AI, just like they are in GPS. Depending, again, which level of AI you’re using will depend upon what you can legally copyright, and call your own, and what you cannot. We got to be careful about what level we’re talking about. So at a high level, where you’re not giving any input at all, you can’t copyright that, because it’s all generated by something else. And then the fact that the program plagiarizes, it goes out into the ether, and grabs all these different articles, and then changing some swapping words around and paragraphs around and so forth, so it doesn’t look like it’s a direct copy. They create what you want. They will write an article for you, and you can actually buy right now, or pay for an article to be created that you had no input whatsoever on. You just paid some money to have it done, whether it be a newsletter, or whether it be a press release, or a happy birthday card. All those are “AI”.
I mean, they’re artificially created, meaning you didn’t do it yourself. So when we talk about AI, it is just a buzzword. I mean, it is just something that was created that you had no input, whether it be mimicking your voice, whether it be mimicking your face, whether it be mimicking your company or whatever. Again, it’s like a parrot, it’s mimicking. But you can make it sound very real. In fact, if you go right now and try to create a voice-created email, then it asks for samples. In other words, it asks you to repeat, in your voice, a certain paragraph, so that it can mimic the way you do it. And so it sounds like they can recognize voice recognition as you would. They can recognize who you are.
Rob Artigo: The fact, I was actually surprised to find out, that you can’t copyright something that you generate by AI. The article that I’m looking at here is actually from wired.com, and they have a picture that looks looks like classic oil on canvas painting. It’s this beautiful big, epic-looking picture and this image looks like a painting. It’s wonderful, beautiful piece of art, and it’s an award-winning piece of art, and yet we could take this and put this on toughthingsfirst.com, and not have to worry about violating anybody’s copyright. We wouldn’t even have to ask permission. We could just throw it up there and use it.
Ray Zinn: Well, it’s like paint by number like Hunter Biden. You’re just filling in the… It shows you what paint to use, and you just dob it in that perimeter of where it says number one, number two, three, four, five, whatever, and then you create the painting that way. But that’s artificial. In other words, there’s no way that you could copyright that, because it was artificially done, whether it’s paint by number or whether it was done by a computer. So, I mean, you can create, with software, you can actually make yourself look beautiful by doing… I just went brain-dead for a second. What is that? How you can clear up-
Rob Artigo: Like hair brushing or masking?
Ray Zinn: No, there’s a term for it anyway. In photos, you can Photoshop it. That’s it.
Rob Artigo: Okay. Right.
Ray Zinn: You can Photoshop yourself. You can Photoshop yourself with muscles, and with darker eyebrows, and darker hair. And like me, I could use darker hair, but you can make yourself look like anything you want. And then that’s artificially done. You can’t copyright that, because that’s not original. You actually used something else to do it. So you got to be careful when you do editing, or do writing where you’re… You got to be careful. You may pay the money to have it copyrighted, but it can be challenged in court. It’s like when you do patents, there’s we call workaround. Okay?
So patent workaround is where you try to find some way to work around a valid patent. And then there’s a lot of legality, litigation going on, where the company owns the patent tries to connect the dots and say, “Well, you just copied what we did,” and you say, “Oh, no, I didn’t. I changed this, I changed that.” And it’s a big legal battle. That’s the workaround that they do. So, AI is the same way. I mean, you’re just basically doing a workaround. And whether you’re trying to create your own doctorate thesis, or a master’s thesis, or whatever, if you get AI to create it, be careful, because they’re going to plagiarize. They’re going to go, grab it out there, and then it’s going to be then not your content, but somebody else’s.
Rob Artigo: The article here talks about that AI-generated painting, if you will, because it’s not really paint, right? It’s just digital pixels, and that’s how the image was created. The copyright office admitted that parts of the image were original works, and that he could copyright little pieces of it, but he couldn’t copyright the whole image. And I think, right now, that’s kind of the Wild West we’re in. If you write something, if AI generates something for you, and there are bits and pieces in there that are your original work, you’d have to, like you said that the patent office, you’d have to have this big legal battle as to what’s original and what’s AI generated. Do you-
Ray Zinn: Well, that’s what a patent attorney does though, Rob. The patent attorney goes out, and looks, and does research, and finds out how much of your patent is plagiarized, meaning how much have you… Maybe you didn’t know. Maybe you didn’t even think that there was, somebody out there already had done it. But even if you didn’t know about it, if you were totally unaware, and then you tried to patent it, if you have a good patent attorney, he will then, or she will then let you know what areas are plagiarized. Now you can say, “Well, I didn’t copy.” Doesn’t matter. Plagiarized means that you’re taking something from somebody else, and then calling it your own. That’s what plagiarizing is.
And patent work, which I’ve done a lot, I’ve got over 20 patents under my belt, and so I know what it takes to create a valid patent, and so it’s really interesting. I submitted an original, what I thought was an original circuit, to have patented, and my patent lawyer came back and says, “Hey, Ray, that’s already been done.” And then he sent me the copy of it and I looked at it and I said, “Oh, man, I’ll do this a little differently over here.” And he says, “Well, yeah, but it’s not enough different.”
Rob Artigo: Yeah. It’s not enough different.
Ray Zinn: Right. Right.
Rob Artigo: And with the many screenplays that I’ve written, and books and things, and one thing that I learned in the world of creating, particularly, written material is that chances are, if I send out a original screenplay to be read and reviewed by a studio, or by an executive, or an agent, or whatever, chances are they’re going to come back and they’re going to say, “I’ve already seen this script.”
Ray Zinn: Right.
Rob Artigo: And you go, “What do you mean? It’s completely original.” They go, “No, well, it’s…” And my wife would call it the 100th monkey theory, that if one monkey learns how to do something over here, by the time… I mean, at the same time, somebody at the other end of the line is already learning the same thing, so it doesn’t actually have to reach that person. And then there’s another one, where if you come up with a brilliant idea in Silicon Valley, somebody in Sichuan Province or something in China has thought of the exact same thing, exactly at the same time, because of the input. Now, that’s not always the case. Obviously, people come up with original ideas that are good. It’s just a matter of coincidence that the same stimuli hits somebody else-
Ray Zinn: Exactly.
Rob Artigo: … at exactly the same time.
Ray Zinn: We see that all the time. There are a lot of products that are on the market that are very much look-alikes. In other words, they’re just copies of each other, and then it’s up to the marketing people to sell it saying, “Well, ours is a little bit better, a little more reliability, or a little more functionality,” or whatever. But be careful, because anything that is not 90 to 95% different, it’s going to be challenged. Even if it’s 80, 85%, it’s going to get challenged, because it’s depending, again, how successful your product is. So if your product is not at least 95% original, then you’re more likely or most likely to be challenged. So, anyway, this has been a good discussion. So if anybody wants to add to it, if you have questions, if you want to have us talk about it further, please let us know.
Rob Artigo: It’s really cool to talk to you, when we get one of these really fiery conversations, because I think there’s a lot to be learned out there. Like Ray said, you can join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. You can raise your questions with Ray. You can make some comments. You can follow Ray at Twitter, which I guess now is just X, Facebook, and LinkedIn. It’s a bad habit to break, Ray. It’s very difficult habit to call, stop calling it Twitter.
Ray Zinn: I know. It’s like, back in the day, when Xerox invented the copy machine, we used to call it Xeroxing. And so even though we might be using a Canon, or an HP, or something, we still call it Xeroxing, “Could you Xerox me a copy?” It’s hard to break that habit.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, yeah. Because it becomes synonymous. It’s just like, “Hey, everybody knows what you’re talking about.” Yeah. Anyway, so LinkedIn as well is another location where you can find Ray’s social media. Toughthingsfirst.com is the place. The book is Tough Things First. Check it out. There’s also Zen of Zinn one, two, and three. Check out those books. You won’t regret it. Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.
Covid is still affecting the work place and what other trends might we see in 2024. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn Discusses when he expects most people will be back in the office. (Click here for the video.)
Rob Artigo: Welcome to the Tough Things First podcast, your indispensable source for business, leadership and life advice with the longest-serving CEO in Silicon Valley history. I’m your guest host, Rob Artigo. And he’s Ray Zinn. Good morning, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hey. How you doing there, Rob? Good to be with you again.
Rob Artigo: Good, good, good. Good to see you.
Ray Zinn: Thank you.
Rob Artigo: Well, COVID is mostly in the rear view mirror now, but the fallout apparently lingers. We still have-
Ray Zinn: Oh, man.
Rob Artigo: We still have a lot of people working from home, remote working. And I know that there is… I mean, some big companies, Facebook and Apple and other companies. It’s a big push to try to get a lot of people to get back into the office, in some cases requiring people to get back into the office. And some people are still balancing a little home, a little work. What do you think, Ray? In 2024, are we going to see more work-from-home? Or is it going to start tapering off?
Ray Zinn: Well, it’s tapering off now, actually.
Ray Zinn Cont.: My prediction is that most companies that had a work-from-home policy during the COVID pandemic are now going to scale that back to them coming into work. So most companies now are at least three days in the office, two days at home. Let’s say Monday and Friday at home and then Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday in the office. So that’s going to then I think going to go, in either latter part of 2024 or in 2025, it’s going to go to two days and then ultimately down one day, and then… I mean, not two days. One day in 2025 to no days in 2026. So in other words, by 2026, all companies will be back to 100% in the office.
And the reason for that, of course, this is part of our discussion today, is that the employees are just not as efficient working from home. Now granted, they’d like it. I mean, most employees, I’d say 95% of them, love working from home because they have more flexibility. They don’t have the commute time and the commute costs. They don’t have to dress up. They don’t even have to comb their hair. They can just jump on their computer and go to work. So the pandemic coincided beautifully with this internet capability working from home with Zoom and Team and other software devices has allowed these employees to work from home and they think quite effectively. So if I look at it introspectively, I think that probably a good 80% of the employee workforce would prefer working from home. They’d like to do it 100%. Maybe one day a week going into the office, but by and large, they want to be at 100%. In fact, that leads us into this coffee break thing.
Rob Artigo: Coffee badging. Coffee badging.
Ray Zinn: Oh, coffee. Yeah, coffee badging. So coffee badging, I forgot the term of that thing, but coffee badging is basically going into work, clocking in and then walking around the office and maybe shooting the breeze with some people and then after they’ve done their coffee, had their coffee, then they say, “We’re going to log out,” or…
Rob Artigo: Check out.
Ray Zinn: Check out. They checkout.
Rob Artigo: Just leave.
Ray Zinn: And then go home. But the companies, they’re aware of that and they’re wise to it and they’ll put in the capability to monitor that. So my view again is really reducing the number of times at home to two in 2024, one in 2025 and zero in 2026. The employees are fighting it like crazy. In other words, all the employees that love to work from home are going to fight it tooth and nail. They will lose some workers. So there’s some people are going to quit and try to find some way to work from home. This pandemic has caused a lot of bad habits to occur, and working from home is really a bad habit. The employee efficiency by and large is pretty bad. I mean, it goes to the 80/20 rule where 80% of them… 20% are good at working from home. In other words, they’re effective. 80% are not. And 80/20 rule applies of course there.
So here we go. It’s going to be a big battle between the employees and the companies. And that’s going to be a perk actually. That’s another perk that some companies will offer to get the employee to come to work for them or leave their current company and going to work for them is by offering them the opportunity to work from home. So there’s going to be a lot of trading going on. However, at some point, even those companies that are using that as a lever to attract good people, they’re going to still cut back the hours you can work from home and it’s going to be back to the office again.
So you got all that real estate out there that’s being currently empty. That’s going to be to fill back up again. And that expense, those companies that have that expense… Now granted it’s less expense because they don’t have all the cleaning issues, the other things that go along with having the employees back in the office, again, parking lot issues and that sort of thing, but the efficiency is just killing the companies. Okay? So they want the employees to be back in the office again.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. You mentioned the bad habit part. So you went right into something that I was going to ask you about it, and that is we talk about how easy it is to start a bad habit and how hard it is to get rid of it and start a good habit. Good habits are hard to come by. Is that from a leadership or management perspective to understand the process of getting people back in is to figuring out a way to help them break a bad habit even if they think it’s just a preference and it’s actually just a bad habit by now?
Ray Zinn: Yeah. Yeah. Remember, we talked about that coffee badging. Okay. That’s the employee’s way of faking out the company. “Okay. I clocked in.” So they see them clocking in, but then they’ll leave in a couple hours and go home, dodge the traffic and all that sort of thing. So as you pointed out, and I’ve written about a number of times, a good habit is one that’s very hard to start and very easy to break. Okay? A bad habit is very easy to start and very difficult to break. And so that’s why every year about in January, we talk about New Year’s resolutions because we have to go back to those good habits that we call New Year’s resolutions. Those are typically good habits, right, Rob? Yeah, those are-
Rob Artigo: Supposed to be. They’re supposed to be. Yeah.
Ray Zinn: Yeah. Exercising more, eating more healthy, just studying harder, whatever it is that you wanted to do to improve yourself as a New Year’s resolution, those are hard. Those are very difficult and hard to keep going. In other words, it takes a lot of work to keep a good habit underway. But what the companies do or what they will do is by pushing the employee back to work again, into the office, I should say, is going to cause them to have to develop good habits again. And so the company is going to force these good habits, but it’ll take time. I mean, just like the pandemic lasted a year and a half or two years, I guess, year and a half, let’s see, yeah, a little over a year and a half the pandemic lasted, it’s going to take about three or four years to get that good habit back again. So even if they get the employees back to work, they’re not going to pick up the efficiency right away. It going to take a little while to break those bad habits that occurred or got indoctrinated because of the work-from-home issue.
So anyway, it’s going to be a challenge. I mean, the companies will work it out. The companies can encourage this back to work effort by making it pleasant to be back to work. So there’s things they can do to make it more pleasant for the employee, maybe a shorter work day, maybe just good morale boosting meetings and so forth that they can have. They have to make it pleasant for the employees to come back. So good habits are not necessarily pleasant. Bad habits are very pleasant, mostly. And so people tend to respond to good, pleasant, happy things. And so the companies will figure out what they got to do to make the work environment better. And so I think that’s going to be good in a way because these companies that are on ball and really knowing this issue will work hard at making work a happier place. And so that’s the key.
So to all of you out there who run companies and who have influence in this area of getting employees back to work, try to make it a happy place, try to make it a pleasant place to be. At Micrel, that’s what we did. We tried to make work a happy place. And so we were diligently to make it fun for people to come back to work. Maybe you have to improve the parking. Maybe you have to put more charging meters out there for people who want to bring electric cars to work. Maybe it’s just better breaks and time in the workday. And maybe it’s better software technology, just making it a pleasant place for them to be. Once they get back into the habit of returning to work, then I think things are going to improve. The efficiency is going to get better. But I don’t see that happening at least over the next year or two. So I mean, they’ll get them back to work, but I’m not sure the efficiency is going to improve much.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, this is along the same lines. I mean, it’s employment related, but I saw this and I thought we’ll close this podcast, this video podcast, out with a… Just get your take on this. So I was reading this blurb about this employer in Australia, and he has this speaking of coffee badging. So it relates in that respect because there’s coffee related here. He evaluates candidates who are applying, does an interview. When the person comes in for the interview, he offers coffee or I’m assuming that any hot beverage in a mug will do. So somebody who doesn’t want coffee but would rather have tea fine. But what he does is the interviewer or the employer sits there and the person has their hot beverage sitting in front of them. They do the interview and they talk and they do their regular conversation. When they wrap up, he checks to see if they take the mug with them, go to the break room, rinse the cup out and put it back. And it’s like that’s a big way that he evaluates whether he wants to hire the person or not.
Give me your take on that. I mean, to me, it’s revealing, but I don’t know if I’d rely all of the hiring on that.
Ray Zinn: Well, sometimes they don’t use a coffee mug. They just use a styrofoam cup. But did they take the styrofoam cup with them, throw it away? Or did they just leave it on the desk? That’s another way of evaluating what kind of employee they’re going to be. So you can use a styrofoam cup. You don’t have to use a coffee mug. You can use a styrofoam cup. And if they just left it there and walked out, then that’s a bad, that’s a no-no. But if they take it with them and dispose of it or dispose of it while they’re there, that’s a good sign. So I think that’s a good idea actually. Whether it might be a soda pop can, whether it’s a coffee cup or a styrofoam cup or whatever or even a napkin with a hot roll on it or donut or something, you can find out if they just leave the paper there, the napkin or whatever it is you gave them. Or did they clean up after themselves?
Rob Artigo: Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s it, is the clean-up after themselves. And I think it probably has a lot to do with just attention to detail and awareness of what’s happening there. I mean, if you have the wherewithal to clean up after yourself, then it means that you are confident and you have [inaudible 00:14:18]-
Ray Zinn: Well, good habits. You got good habits.
Rob Artigo: You have a good habit and you’re showing that you’re put together well. Well, as always, Ray, you can… Well, I should talk to the audience. You already know this, Ray. For the audience, you can reach out to Ray Zinn with your questions@toughthingsfirst.com, continue your education and the conversation with all the podcasts, blogs and the links to information about Ray’s books, Tough Things First, the Zen of Zinn series one, two, and three. Appreciate it, Ray. This is a great podcast and I’m glad we could do it on video.
Rob Artigo: Yep. Get Tough Things First, the book. Great conversation, Ray. Really appreciate it.
Ray Zinn: Thank you very much, Rob.
“Divide and conquer,” is a frequently used term and almost as frequently misused when unity is what you’re really after. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn talks about how a winning team in business or on the playing field is one that focuses on what unites, not what divides.
Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, your guest host for this edition of the Tough Things First podcast where I get a chance to talk with Ray Zinn, as noted, the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley. And that’s for good reason. He’s been there, he’s done that. Hi Ray. It’s good to be back.
Ray Zinn: Hi, Rob. Yeah, thanks. Making me blush here buddy.
Rob Artigo: Well, good. Divide and conquer. I was kind of looking at the history of this, and this is the tactic Julius Caesar used 22 centuries ago, but he wasn’t the first person to do it. So divide your enemies up and conquer them. And in modern times we’ve gotten to this notion of divide and conquer meaning I have to take my team and divide my team up into smaller groups and then I can conquer. You’re saying that that is not helpful logic?
Ray Zinn: Well, that’s going back to the silos.
Ray Zinn cont: If there’s an entrepreneurial term referring to organizations that developed these silos, that’s dividing. In other words you develop a… You protect your organization against the other organizations. And I know I talked to recently a person who was being… Their company was going through some restructuring and so the teams that were left, they’re fighting over them because you’re trying to keep as much of your capabilities as you can, elevate yourself in your organization. So now they’re fighting over who gets what part of what’s left over in the organization. And so there’s a lot of dividing and conquering going on in that aspect.
The military or in the rules of war, there is that divide and conquering mentality because if you can cause a division, then you can conquer them and we talk about in our society today, we’re talking about when we’re divisive, it means we’re divided, if you’re divisive. In society we’re talking about this aspect of being divisive. In society we don’t want to be divisive, we don’t want to be divided. There is no way to conquer when you’re divided in society. And so if you want to conquer, the way you conquer is by uniting. Again, so this is a societal thing. We’re not talking about war here. We’re talking about trying to have peace, P-E-A-C-E. And so in peace, that’s what you want to conquer. You want to conquer peace. So to conquer peace means you can’t be divisive or divided.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, I guess the other words you can use instead of conquer would be to win, to succeed, to improve the lives of others.
Ray Zinn: Overcome. Conquer means to overcome.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, to overcome. So overcome a problem. To overcome a problem if you want to do that. One of the things you wrote recently to me was that you said you got to focus on what unites us, not what divides us. And somewhere in there there’s a solution that has some common ground and you can’t just say, you have to take it. It’s my way or the highway, do it exactly the way I want it, and any deviation from that would be affront to me. But we can’t operate that way because there has to be some common ground to find a solution.
Ray Zinn: Well, that’s what we’re talking about what unites us is how we conquer. So if you’re going in for a job interview and you want to conquer that job or to win it as you would, then you have to be united with your interviewer if you want the job. So you try to find ways where there’s common ground, where there is some commonality in the way that interview is going. You don’t want to be divisive. Can you imagine going into an interview for an important job and you’re divisive? Do you think you’re going to get that job? I don’t think so. So again, just use the common logic of if you want to conquer, if you want to win, you have to unite, you have to have commonality, you have to have some kind of unification of that relationship, whether it be your spouse, whether it be your children, whether it be your neighbor or whatever.
If you want peace, P-E-A-C-E, if you want peace, you have to find a way to have common ground, commonality. We all have a commonality, but we don’t often look for it. We look more for what divides us as opposed to what unites us. And so if you start out, whether it be an interview for a job or whether it be in a relationship with another person, a friend or family or whatever, you want to find out what unites us. And the word that unites us is the word yes, Y-E-S. And so you try to find out where there’s a lot of yes. Yes, yes, yes. And so that’s what brings us together as opposed to divides us. I know that in… Recently, I was talking to one of my family and they were talking about the Philadelphia Eagles, and evidently some friends had gone to a… They were 49er fans and had gone to the Eagles game and the Eagles fans they were terrible.
They were not nice at all. Football is a contentious game and there’s people trying to hurt each other and whatever, but they didn’t treat their compatriots well, the people who were rooting for the other team, all that badmouthing and foul language and throwing stuff at them and just mistreating them. See, that’s what happens when you have a competition… Competition should be uniting, not just dividing. And I know the teams, you’re divided into two teams, but you can still be united in the way you treat each other. Good sportsmanship unites, right? You have to be a good sport. Even if you’re playing in a highly contentious game, whether it be tennis, hockey, basketball, football, baseball, whatever, you still have to be united in the common goal of sportsmanship. And so that’s the key to this podcast is we got to become good sports and we can have our differences, but we don’t have to be different. Okay. We can be united in the way that we relate to each other and be good sports about it, even though we have differences.
Rob Artigo: I recall that game that you were talking about between the Eagles and the 49ers, and I believe that behavior was reflected on the field. So what the fans are seeing, they’re recreating in the stands or in the parking lot or…
Ray Zinn: I think the team is doing what the fans expect them to do and so I think that the team is relating to what the fans want. The fans want them to be bad people. They want to be contentious and-
Rob Artigo: Other way around.
Ray Zinn: Right. So we tend to respond on the way we’re viewed. I remember the Raiders back in the day, they were considered a bad team. They weren’t good, offer good sportsmanship. And so I am suggesting on this podcast that we learn to be good sports. And even though we have differences, we have to find ways to unite us as opposed to what divides us. And so again, focus on being a good sport.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. Something else you wrote was we share the same commonness that we’re human and this makes us brothers and sisters.
Ray Zinn: Exactly.
Rob Artigo: That’s good information. As always, you can reach out to Ray Zinn with your questions at toughthingsfirst.com. Continue your education and the conversation with all the podcast blogs and links to information about Ray’s books, Tough Things First, the Zen of Zinn 1, 2 and 3. We’ll have another conversation and another podcast soon, Ray.
Ray Zinn: All right Rob, thank you.
How does an effective leader constantly calibrate his or herself and does it boost consistency? In this Tough Things First Podcast, Ray Zinn explores the value of self-awareness through a regular inventory of personal strengths and weaknesses.
Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, your guest host for this edition of the Tough Things First podcast with Ray Zinn, the longest-serving CEO in Silicon Valley. Hello again, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hi, Rob. How are you doing today?
Rob Artigo: I’m doing great. You recently told me that the key to having consistent drive is good habits. I think you called it the law of consistency. Tell me a little bit about that.
Ray Zinn: Okay, we all know that inconsistency is a negative. Would you agree there?
Rob Artigo: Sure, yeah.
Ray Zinn: So we don’t want to be inconsistent. We want to be consistent. So they say life is not a sprint. It’s a marathon. So it’s a consistent effort at consistent improving the self-awareness, understand where your weaknesses are to make your weaknesses strong. That’s the key. The stronger you can make your weaknesses, the better off you are. You don’t have to improve on your strengths. That’s an oxymoron. You want to improve on your weaknesses. So having that self-awareness, that calibrating, we talk about instruments that are very important and very accurate, are instruments that are constantly calibrated. In fact, they have this little calibration sticker on them that says, “Here’s when it was calibrated. Here’s when this next calibration’s due.” It is that consistent reevaluation, that consistent self-awareness, is how you improve on a day-to-day basis. So again, it’s calibrate yourself. Be a self-calibrator.
Rob Artigo: What can we do to improve consistency as entrepreneurs and business leaders?
Ray Zinn: As we just kind of covered, you have to constantly calibrate yourself. Don’t be afraid of criticism. Accept criticism. It is not always negative. Criticism can be positive if it helps you become a better person. So accept criticism. Don’t shun it. Don’t get angry because you get criticized. Look at it as really positive. So I call it don’t be afraid of criticism. That should be another podcast that we do, don’t be afraid of criticism.
Rob Artigo: You did mention, I liked what you had said about writing down your weaknesses and shortcomings.
Ray Zinn: Yeah, because then you acknowledge them. When you write them down, you put them in hard print, it becomes now something you’ve documented. So write it down. Don’t be afraid to make a list of things you’re not good at. That’s the key. Granted, you should know your strengths. You should know them. You absolutely should know your strengths, but you should also know your weaknesses. In fact, it’s more important to improve a weakness than it is to improve a strength because then you become a more of what they call a well-rounded individual.
Rob Artigo: I guess if you want to be part of a team, then if you can trust the people in your team, then you can share the fact that these are my strengths and these are my weaknesses. I think, obviously, one of the themes that runs through this podcast throughout its history is humility. You mentioned it in a previous podcast recently. The idea of humility comes into play here because you have to be able to, like you said, accept the criticism that’s out there, but within the team, you have to be able to share the idea that goes, “Look, we want collective strength. And in order to do that, all of us need to be honest about where we’re strongest and where we’re weakest.”
Ray Zinn: Right. We all are willing to acknowledge our strengths, but one of the areas we have the difficulty with is acknowledge our weaknesses. I’d like to go back to this calibration thing. The only reason we calibrate equipment is because it tends to drift. It means it becomes weak, as you would, and we become weak. So good leaders, successful people are calibrators. They calibrate themselves. So think of it when we talk about this self-evaluation or self-assuring, is to calibrate yourself and find out how you’ve drifted. We’re not perfect, and we drift and we get out of calibration, and we need to do that. None of us are so perfect that we never change. We never do anything poorly or bad. All of us drift. All of us get out of sync, as you would, and we need to resync ourselves.
Rob Artigo: When we collect together our strengths and weaknesses. I think one of the things that you suggest is to say that you should then share that information with somebody. It is hard to share intimate personal information, like your weaknesses. But if it helps you understand, if it helps you calibrate, then it’s a good thing. I wonder, who are the kinds of people we might confide in with that list of strengths and weaknesses so that we can hear their feedback?
Ray Zinn: Our close friends, our spouses, our parents, our siblings, don’t be afraid of acknowledging your weaknesses. There’s nothing wrong with that. Acknowledging one’s weaknesses is a strength. That is a strength. Hiding your weaknesses is a weakness. So vocalize. People are willing to help. Most people, especially your good friends, are willing to help you. So when you tell them, “Hey, can you help me with this issue or that issue?” Or whatever, that’s a positive. They will. A close friend, a relative, or your spouse, they want to help. The fact that you acknowledge the fact that you have a weakness in a particular area actually is comforting to them because they already know it. When they know you know it, that makes them feel even better, and they’re more willing to help you.
Rob Artigo: Is that where the accountability part comes in?
Ray Zinn: Exactly. That’s that. Acknowledging your weaknesses is what we call accountability. Hiding your weaknesses is not taking accountability. Disavowing a weakness is not taking accountability. Acknowledging your weaknesses is taking accountability.
Rob Artigo: Before we wrap up this podcast, let me ask you just, can you think of a time when, maybe with a team, with some of your staff or leadership, where you ran into this problem where suddenly you find out there was a weakness that people knew about but didn’t want to acknowledge and therefore weren’t accountable for it or tried to avoid being accountable for it?
Ray Zinn: Yeah, especially when it comes to… They made a mistake. People know when they make a mistake. The problem is, when they acknowledge it, then they have to go fix it. That’s one of the problems we have when we acknowledge a mistake, we have to go fix it. We’re selfish with our time. We’re selfish with the effort. So when you fix a mistake, that means you’re going to repair it without harming someone else. In other words, for example, let’s say you made a mistake in a design of a product at your company, and then you just charged the company to fix the mistake. That’s not right. That’s not taking accountability. Accountability is when you repair the mistake on your time, at your cost, rather than make the company pay the cost of your mistake.
Rob Artigo: I think that’s where you always suggest that you come to the reckoning of the mistake with a solution rather than an excuse.
Ray Zinn: Right. So again, if you’re truly going to correct or take accountability for a mistake, you have to correct it without causing somebody else harm. In other words, you can’t put the mistake on someone else like, “Oh, I’ll just sit here at my desk and repair the problem, but the company still paid me.” Stay overtime. Come in on the weekends. Whatever it takes, don’t charge your company, your employer, your spouse, or whoever. Don’t charge them for your mistake. If you pay for your mistake, then that’s taking accountability.
Rob Artigo: Ray, Tough Things First, of course, as you know, is a fast-growing podcast rated one of the top in Silicon Valley, and we’d like to keep that up. So we’d like our listeners to make sure they give the podcast a good rating on their favorite platform. Please also check out Ray’s books on the Zen of Zinn series. There’s one, two, and three, and also Tough Things First, the book that you need to get. I look forward to the next time, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob. I appreciate you being here.
A leader may make decisions and plans, but executing on that vision requires a team. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explores the positive attributes of the leader who knows how to give credit where credit is due. Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, your guest host for this edition of The Tough Things First podcast. I’m a writer […]
The trend had been “quiet quitting” where an employee stops putting out any effort at all at work, but just draws a paycheck. Now, they are quitting, but doing it loud, publicly, and on social media. In this special Tough Things First video podcast with Ray Zinn, Ray discusses the phenomenon and how it effects the workplace and the employee’s […]
Major companies say productivity and creativity are suffering from remote work and are now ordering workers back to the office or face firing. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explores the pluses and minuses of remote work and why this back-to-the-office trend is a needed correction. Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, your guest host for this edition of […]
You have heard about “chasing the dream,” but is it a fool’s errand in the end? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explores the downside of something that sounds good on the surface, and suggests and alternative. Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, your guest host for this edition of the Tough Things First podcast with Ray Zinn, the […]
A person “with a way with words” can send another person wayward. Words matter, and in this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn talks about how what we say can bring a person to a new level of success or grind them into oblivion. It’s your choice. Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, your guest host for this edition of the […]
Depending on who you ask, Ai is the scariest technology in the world or the 8th Wonder. But are some of the best human minds missing the mark? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn turns the debate on its head. (Clear here for the Video Podcast) Rob Artigo: Welcome to the Tough Things First podcast, your indispensable source […]
A successful entrepreneur requires adaptability, to adjust to different conditions and or circumstances. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn breaks down why adaptability is so essential and why your whole team needs to embrace a fluid approach to business.
Rob Artigo: Rob Artigo here, once again your host for this edition of the Tough Things First Podcast. I’m an entrepreneur in California. It’s wonderful to be with you again, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Yeah, I’m glad you’re able to do this podcast with me.
Rob Artigo: Wealth of knowledge that I get. I thought today, let’s talk about adaptability, and this is really the ability to see what’s coming or to react properly upon outside stimuli. So being adaptable is important as your role as a leader. So Ray, what is adaptability in your mind and where does it apply in our business and personal worlds?
Ray Zinn: Well, it’s called pivoting.
Ray Zinn Cont.: There’s a saying, it’s kind of like a attitude, “Blessed are the flexible for they will not get bent out of shape”. And you can apply that to your personal life, you can also apply it to a company. So being able to pivot, whether you’re in sports or whether you’re in business or teaching school or whatever your vocation is. It’s that ability to be flexible, to be able to adapt and not just adapt difficulty, but adapt easily. So if you don’t have a pivoting plan or a plan to maneuver, like Who Moved the Cheese is a book that was written sometime ago that talks about adaptability. If you can’t adapt to where the cheese moved, then you’re going to starve to death. So pivoting is the key. And then when I ran Micrel, I wouldn’t say I thought about it every day, but at least many times during the week I would think about, ‘what if this happens?’ ‘What if that happens?’ ‘What do I do?’ ‘How do I recover?’.
And so we talk about a good quarterback. A good quarterback adapts to the defense, and so he reads the defense, he reads his offense, and he just has that ability, that adaptability to make the right call to just to help his team score. And so you got to be able to read. You got to read your defense, you got to read your competitors, you got to be able to read the economics. Don’t keep going down the same path if you’re failing at that path. If the path is leading you to destruction and you have to take a detour, you got to be able to go around the damage or the potential damage that’ll occur if you’re not adaptable. So the success of any business is really having the ability to be able to pivot and to zig when you should zag as you would.
Rob Artigo: I find that another way of looking at that is they always say in the military that no plan survives first contact with the enemy. That success of the mission depends on your ability to adapt. Not all your decisions are going to be the right ones right away. Your adaptability has to be sort of a ever-evolving concept, and you have to be open to options and understanding that you need to adapt to conditions.
Ray Zinn: Well, I know this is a contemporary story, but this war that’s going on between Russia and Ukraine. Russia is a much bigger force, a much larger adversary with more capability, more assets. And we can liken that to a large company, that a multi-billion dollar company and you’re competing against it. Like Ukraine is competing against Russia. It looks like Ukraine is hanging on. I don’t know how well because the news media, I don’t know if I could trust all the information coming out of it, but it is taking Russia a lot longer than they thought to be able to defeat Ukraine. And so you don’t have to be a giant like Russia to succeed. You just have to have that will. And so the difference between the Russians and the Ukrainians is that word called will, W-I-L-L. That means that you’re willing to do whatever it takes.
I’m reminded of that tradition in marriage called having the best man at your wedding. So the story behind the best man is back in the medieval times, the spouse, I mean the bride, her family would try to capture [inaudible], the spouse or the bride away from the spouse. And so the spouse had to surround himself with kind of a little army to protect his wife and from her being taken. So he always had the outer circle. Then you had the inner circle. Inner circle was covered by the best man. So what the best man would do is he would be willing to give up his life. And so you can imagine here you are, you’re the bride’s family, and you’re going to try to take away the bride when the best man’s going to give up his life to save that marriage. And so you want the best man right at your side. And so that’s why I call it the will. His will was I’m willing to give up my life to protect my friend and his wife, his spouse.
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Ray Zinn: So again, it’s having that determination. And I think that’s the key that Micrel had actually, so we competed against some very, very large companies, was we had that will to succeed. And so we were called the biggest little company. So we may not have had the best fab, the best designers, the best this or that, but we had the will, we had the energy and the ability to slug it out as you would. So I wasn’t afraid of my competition. In fact, I enjoyed my competition because they helped me become better. The best teams are the ones that go against each other like in the Super Bowl. So you don’t have to be the biggest or the smartest or the most money, you just have to have that will
Rob Artigo: The ability to adapt in the face of an ever-changing environment that you can’t predict. I mean, the recent bank failures, the pretty clear downturn in the economy that could last, I think I heard somebody recently say that it could last three quarters under the most favorable conditions.
Ray Zinn: Right.
Rob Artigo: Under the most favorable conditions. And so we don’t really know precisely what’s going to happen, but we have to, as business owners, we have to have the ability to adapt as it changes during this period.
Ray Zinn: Well three quarters is a good metric because that’s, three quarters is what’s 90 days?
Rob Artigo: 90 days, okay.
Ray Zinn: No, that’s one month. That’s one quarter, sorry. One quarter is 90 days. So that’d be three times that just-
Rob Artigo: Yeah, like nine months.
Ray Zinn: Nine months. That’s at nine months. Yeah.
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Ray Zinn: So, you have to be able to hold on for nine months, and that’s a good metric. So if you don’t have the horsepower, the ability to hold on for nine months, you’re most likely going to fail. So again, going back to the Ukrainians and the Russian War, they’ve gone over a year. And so that just shows that the ability for the Ukrainians to adapt against whatever the Russians throw at them shows their tenacity, their ability to pivot, their adaptability as you would. And so, as I mentioned in the beginning of the podcast, I wouldn’t think about this every day, but I’d think about it many times during the week about what do I do if this happens? What if I do, what happens if that happens? And so we were always looking for the exit or the place we needed to pivot to.
Rob Artigo: For our listeners, I hope they’ll go to their favorite podcast platform and rate this podcast and as always, our listeners can reach out to you, Ray, and if they have questions, just go to toughthingsfirst.com. I know you read those messages. Also there at toughthingsfirst.com, you’ll find the links for social media. There’s blogs, links to other information about the book, Tough Things First for example, and also the Zen of Zen series, which is three books on entrepreneurship, leadership, management, but also on discipline and determination in life, which is adaptability certainly one of those things. So that’s the Zen of Zen series. I hope you’ll pick those books up as well. Thank you again, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hey Rob, it’s so good to be with you again.
A job title doesn’t make the leader. In this edition of the Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explores the idea of indecisive leadership and he is hardly indecisive on the matter.
Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, your guest host for this edition of the Tough Things First podcast where I get a chance to talk with Ray Zinn, as noted, the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley. And that’s for good reason. He has life experience, he has work experience, and obviously success at the helm of a company for more than three decades. It’s just amazing. So, hi Ray, it’s good to be back with you.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob. Good to be with you this morning.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, we’ve all been around and worked for or worked with leaders who from time to time have shown an inability to make a solid decision when the stakes are highest, and obviously that can not bode well for a company. So what’s the nature of indecisive leadership in your mind?
Ray Zinn: I think it’s an oxymoron, because how can you be a leader if you’re indecisive? Leaders by definition are decisive. That’s why they’re leaders. So I don’t know that it’s possible to be an indecisive leader. And so it is kind of a funny oxymoron saying indecisive leadership. So I mean, they may be indecisive as an individual, but they’re not leading. Leading by definition is decisive. That’s what leading’s all about. Whether you’re a flock of geese flying south or whatever, there’s a leader. And it’s interesting in a flock of geese that are flying, you’ll notice they form a V. And the reason is because they’re drafting behind each other. And so as a team, that’s what the V does, is that V forms this ability for the geese to draft behind each other. So as a leader, as a front person is taking all the brunt because he’s providing the draft for the next one, which providing the draft for the next one and so forth, he then drops back to the rear and then the next person moves forward, that’s being decisive.
In other words, they know what their mission is. And then he moves into position and then he provides that leadership, that ability for everybody else to draft. So if the geese didn’t have that ability, they couldn’t make those long flights. So it’s just interesting, that’s a good example, I think, of just leadership is that, you allow people to draft behind you so that you provide the forward momentum for your company, that’s being decisive, forward momentum, not regressive or sideways, but you are providing that momentum for your company. That’s what a leader does, whether it’s in sports, whether it’s in teaching school or running a family, working in the government, whatever it is that you’re doing is part of your role. You can be a leader as a follower. In fact, the best leaders are good followers. Remember I said about the geese when they’re flying, they lead for a while, but then they follow also because they drop back because they can’t keep it up.
And so the analogy here is that a good leader is also a good follower because they do drop back and draft and get their energy back so they can go back and lead again. So as an individual, as a individual person, you can be a good leader if you’re decisive. So you don’t have to be the CEO of a company or a manager of a department. As an individual, you are leading your job, your responsibility. And so everyone that provides a positive influence in their organization, they have to be decisive. I don’t know how many of you are listening to this podcast, but think about all those individuals that you associate with who are indecisive and they’re not successful as individuals, you could tell by the way they act, the way they dress, the way they perform their daily functions. If they’re indecisive, then they don’t even know how to perform their job properly. So indecisive leaders is really an oxymoron.
Rob Artigo: And you make a really good point about that Ray, about a indecisive leader is actually an oxymoron because if you’re indecisive, you’re really not being a leader. But it brings to mind the fact that your title may be one of leadership, but that doesn’t mean you are being a leader.
Ray Zinn: Exactly.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. You know what I mean?
Ray Zinn: Exactly. So again, as I said, when we decided this topic, I said, “This is an oxymoron because you can’t… There’s no such a thing as an indecisive leader.” Take the geese again, if you’re leading, you’re the front goose as you would and you’re indecisive, you keep drought dropping down, around and back, they’re going to say, “Well, what the heck are you doing? What kind of a leader are you? Because you’re really not performing your role in helping us form this formation that allows us to fly these long distances.”
Rob Artigo: I’ll also offer this as an analogy because it makes me, when I think of drafting, I think of cycling and I spent a good chunk of my years bike racing and drafting becomes really important. You can be the person on the front, but you have to be aware of what’s happening to the people around you because you can’t be the goose or the point man in a cycling formation and drive it so hard that everybody else falls back, or they can’t keep up with you because you went up there and just burned up all your energy. You’ve got to be aware. And so that’s being decisive means making a decision that benefits the team.
Ray Zinn: Exactly.
Rob Artigo: And knowing that you’re like, “Okay, this is what I’m going to do and this is how I’m going to do it.” And then if for whatever reason we do it, we did a podcast on adaptability, I have to change a little bit if I’m just driving so hard that people, that the company’s failing, that I’m not really being a good leader. I’m not really being decisive.
Ray Zinn: Well, there’s the person that’s a rabbit in the race, somebody who’s out there way out in front burning up their energy, but they’re just forcing, trying to force you to run an improper race as you would. And whether it’s bicycling or racing or running or whatever, they’re trying to force you as a rabbit to try to go beyond what you know you should do. And so there are people like that who act as rabbits, who try to cause you to fail. And so you got to know that too, so you don’t be sucked into a rabbit. So any case, that’s a decent analogy, and hopefully if the lead goose is out there flying faster than the formation can fly, and he could do that for a while, but then he is going to burn out. He measures his energy and what he needs to do to keep that formation and his best efficiency.
Rob Artigo: And I think that in the business world, you’ve probably, I think you’ve mentioned on this podcast a few times, some examples of experience where you saw other CEOs, other leaders of companies doing that very thing, which is you throw themselves out there, burn themselves out at moving it at a pace that they… And demanding other people try to keep up. It doesn’t mean your company’s going to be successful just because you go in driving really hard at the head of the formation.
Ray Zinn: Right. So again, in conclusion, you cannot be an indecisive leader. You can be indecisive as an individual, but not as a leader. And so indecisive leaders are just oxymorons. So as an individual, whether you’re running an organization or whether you’re just working from home as an individual contributor, being decisive will help you succeed. That’s the key to this podcast is being decisive is what’s key to being successful.
Rob Artigo: Well, to the listeners, you can reach out to Ray Zinn with your questions at toughthingsfirst.com. He does read the messages, so please do take the time to write him. We can address those questions here on the podcast. Continue your education and the conversation with all of the podcasts, blogs, and links to information about Ray’s books. The Tough Things First book is essential. You need to pick that up. But also another great book is The Zen of Zinn, and there are three of those. There’s the Zen of Zinn one and two and three, and I hope you’ll pick them up wherever books are sold in Amazon, you can find them. So please do look. Great conversation, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks again, Rob. Appreciate being with you today.
Fictional Wall Street tycoon Gordon Gekko famously uttered the words, “greed is good.” But, for real life CEOs with hundreds, sometimes, tens of thousands of employees, should there be something more than profit? In this Tough Things First podcast, CEO Ray Zinn, says greed doesn’t make profit, good employees who love their work do.
Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, your guest host for this edition of The Tough Things First podcast with Ray Zinn, the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley history. Hello, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hello there, Rob. Good to be with you again.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, you have said, and you’ve written a lot, and you’re musing zen. The Zen of Zinn is also a great example of this, but jotting down thoughts and expanding on an idea that helps all of us when we’re leading our companies to profitability and success…
Rob Artigo: Just having those ideas, it’s really training, training your mind to think a certain way and to follow logical moves as a leader. One of the things you wrote recently was that a good company, well, what makes a good company, I should say, are employees that love their jobs, do their best, believe in the company and all this stuff is an example of what you were able to show is a successful model at Micrel. And then finally, working as a team and you had a track record as well as showing success for the company because you had this solid team. So give us an idea about you as a leader. How do you get through these things? Let’s start with fostering an environment where the employees love their jobs.
Ray Zinn: Well, that’s the key. The key is hiring the right people, of course, but fostering the right environment that those employees will flourish. So having an environment where it’s not intimidating, where the people feel safe, both in terms of their future employment, their wage, their earnings, and the integrity and honesty of the company itself. Employees who… It’s not, as I said earlier, it’s not about all profitability. It’s also about building people. And so when I ran Micrel, my goal was to help people become better people. Of course, they’re going to earn money in the meantime, but it wasn’t my goal, as a CEO, to make them wealthy or rich. That’s their responsibility, to invest in themselves, to help their family financially. My goal as their leader, as the CEO, was to help them become a better person. Better people make better employees.
So I did what I could to help them improve, finding ways to get them better at their job. And so of course, you have to start with something good to build on, so we hired good people, people who had the culture that our company needed, honesty, integrity, dignity of every individual. I didn’t want to hire somebody who was not good and kind to other people. So we spent a lot of time making sure that they had that demeanor where they would treat everyone, irrespective of the level of the individual, with respect. And then that fosters a more safe environment. People don’t like to get yelled at. They don’t like to be hit with condescending language. We didn’t allow any vulgarity at all at Micrel. You could lose your job if you used vulgarity. And so condescending language, vulgarity was just not allowed at the company.
Rob Artigo: Fostered a healthy environment. And one of the things you mentioned in your writing was to do their best. It was a combination of all those things that made it a friendly, advantageous place to work. And therefore, just by nature, people did their best, right?
Ray Zinn: Oh, that’s right, man. People want to do their best when they feel you have their best interest. So I’m going to repeat that again. People will do their best when they know that you have their best interest. And so the concrete mortar and everything that goes about making a facility, everybody has that. Everybody has the same. But what makes a company different and unique is its people, the culture of that company. That was what will allow them and encourage them to be the best, to do their best. If you have the right coach in sports or any sports activity, the coach is really key because the coach, he develops the culture. He’s the one that fosters the training and has the right attitude that helps you become a better player. And so the best coaches are the ones who are loved, loved by their people, by their players.
So that’s the key of being a good coach or a good manager, a good supervisor, is being loved, loved by your people. It means they want to come to work, they want to help you to succeed. So the best teams are the ones where they have a good atmosphere, a good organization behind them, and a good leader. That will foster people doing their best and they don’t want to leave. Micrel had the lowest turnover rate of any, that turnover being people who had resigned and quit, in the industry. So we had extremely low turnover. People just loved to be at the company. I have people… In fact, just the other day, let’s say three or four days ago, I had one of my ex-employees contact me and said how much he really missed working at Micrel because he said, “That environment we had there was unique, and it’s hard to find that in other companies.” So again, the key here is you got to be a good coach. You got to be a good leader, good supervisor, good manager and that means you are loved by your people.
Rob Artigo: And they know when you’re authentic versus if you’re just being a phony baloney.
Ray Zinn: Mm-hmm.
Rob Artigo: But it goes right into the next element here is believe in the company. You create an environment where they love their jobs and do their best. You’ve got a commitment. And like you said, you had a low turnover rate because people believed in you as a leader and as Micrel as a company.
Ray Zinn: Yes. Well, that’s why I said they want to make sure you have their best interest, you have their best interest. They have to feel that, that you are there for them. That’s the key. And so you defend them, you help them, you encourage, you just foster their development. That’s the key. That’s what will help them believe in the company because they’re loved. That’s the key. You were kind, you were understanding, you were empathetic, you were sympathetic, and you were loved. That’s the key.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. And finally, the last element here is work as a team. One thing flows into the next here, but working as a team, you want people to feel like they’re a contributing partner in the group and that they’re working for a common goal.
Ray Zinn: And you can tell this when they don’t complain. There’s no I in team, as you would. So a member of the team who complains, who badmouths other people, they’re not thinking of the team. They’re thinking of themselves. That’s the key to building a good team is to have players who are not thinking of themselves, who are thinking of their other members of their team. I’ve been married 62 years and I attribute to the fact that my wife loves me more than I love her and vice versa. I love my wife more than she loves me. In fact, I kept telling her, “I love you more than you love me.” It’s a joke. This is a joke. But anyway, she goes 200% to help me and I go 200% to help her. I’m not thinking of myself. I’m thinking of her and she’s thinking of me. And same thing with a good team. A good team, the members of the team are thinking of the other players, not themselves.
Rob Artigo: Well Ray, thank you again for the conversation here. This is a fast-growing podcast. It has been since its start. Rated the top Silicon Valley podcast. It’s out there. We know it’s true. We’d like to keep that up, so if you want to make sure that you’re helping this podcast out, you’ve got to go to your favorite podcasting platform, make sure you rate this podcast and continue to bump us up towards the ever increasing five stars we can get on this podcast. Please also check out Ray’s books, the Zen of Zinn 1, 2 and 3, and Tough Things First. The Zen of Zinn is a great series and then Tough Things First is used in academic circles because it’s just a force for knowledge in the business world. So I look forward to the next time, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.
Silicon Valley Bank was not the only bank to fail in early 2023, but it shines as an example of mismanaging risk at enormous expense to depositors. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses the man made ingredients that have caused a banking crisis. (Click here for the Video Podcast.)
Rob Artigo: Welcome to the Tough Things First podcast, your indispensable source for business, leadership and life advice with the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley. I’m your guest host, Rob Artigo, and he’s Ray Zinn. Hello again, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hi, Rob. So good to be with you this morning.
Rob Artigo: Good to be back, Ray, and this is an interesting subject. I should let the listeners know that this is a video edition as well. So if you’re just listening to the podcast but you’d like to watch it, you can just click the link next to … you can go to toughthingsfirst.com and find the podcast, click the link that says video podcast and it’ll take you to Ray’s YouTube channel where we have the video posted, and you can watch it on video. I think it enhances what we do, and we don’t do it all the time, but we try to do it semi-regularly, and it’s fun to be on the same screen with you, Ray, and make videos.
Ray Zinn: Yep.
Rob Artigo: Well, today’s topic is something that’s been in the news a lot lately. I think people will understand this as being an important issue. I mean, people are always concerned about bank failures, and we had a big one. We had the largest … I think it’s gone down as the largest in history, the Silicon Valley Bank collapse.
Apparently, just recently, Ray, First Citizens BancShares, which is a family-run bank out of North Carolina that goes all the way back to the 1800s. I mean, it’s been around a long time. It has the track record. They purchased Silicon Valley Bank, and that was just fairly recently, and it was $72 billion in assets. That includes the loans and deposits and whatnot. They bought it for $16.5 million. Let’s just start with that first. That’s quite a discount, from 72 billion in assets to 16.5 billion in what it costs for them to acquire the bank. What do you think about that?
Ray Zinn: Well, given that UBS acquired Credit Suisse for 7 billion, I think they paid a lot more than UBS did for Credit Suisse. Of course, the Swiss government is really helping out UBS and the acquisition and guaranteeing certain aspects of the business, but again, the Swiss are known for banking and they didn’t want that to go down as a problem for banking in Switzerland to have Credit Suisse fail. So rather than letting Credit Suisse fail, they just let UBS acquire it. So, anyway.
Well, the banking mess, and, of course, I hope our listeners aren’t getting tired of hearing about this because it’s been on the news every single day. I hope that we can shed some light and get some credibility to what has been portrayed in the news. So first off, I know the folks at Silicon Valley Bank. Back in the early ’80s when they started, I had just started my company, Micrel, which is a semiconductor company in Silicon Valley, they wanted me to join the bank. Silicon Valley Bank has always been more or less a venture type bank. I call it a venture bank, always have. So what they should call it is Silicon Venture Bank, is what they should call it, and Sand Hill Road, that’s in Palo Alto, that’s where they have all those venture companies that are housed, as you would, in Palo Alto.
So, they really wanted a bank that could support these little startups, all these Silicon Valley technical, technology startups, and so they formed this company back, as I said, in the early ’80s to support the VCs, because the VCs were acquiring lots and lots of investment and they needed someplace to stick the money. So they thought they could have some degree of control for their clients, their companies, if they had their own bank. So, basically, is what the name implies, is it’s Silicon Valley, which got its name … Silicon Valley got its name back in the mid-60s or late ’60s, and so it really grew rapidly. The venture firms demanded almost that the companies that they founded, or that they funded, put their money into Silicon Valley Bank.
So, Silicon Valley Bank had a lot of deposits, massive, massive deposits, billions in deposits. Their loan book wasn’t all that much. I mean, if you look at their loan to deposit ratios, it’s not bad. I mean, so what they do is they use the deposits to make loans. All these banks do the same thing. They use their deposits to make loans or they find bonds. They use bonds to fund companies. So in the case of Silicon Valley Bank, it’s a high-flying group. In the beginning, these were run by very competent, very capable guys. Some of the best in the business were the ones that were running Silicon Valley Bank, but then Silicon Valley Bank, I guess because it’s just a very high profile bank, they started taking on more risks which weren’t all that good, and these mortgage-backed securities that they used to earn interest rate on their deposits really weren’t all that good.
Back in the … when they acquired them, they didn’t look bad at one and a half percent, or something like that, looked okay until the Biden administration came in, and, of course, inflation took off, and then the Feds came in and started raising interest rates, and now the interest rates are … as long as they stayed down below one and a half, 2%, then, of course, this is what we call the Fed rate, Silicon Valley Bank was perfectly okay, but as soon as they saw the interest rates go up, and they went up so fast, I guess they couldn’t unload those bonds fast enough.
So, all the bond prices have come down. I’m heavily involved in bonds myself, and the value of the bond is dropped significantly as the interest rates go up. So what happens is, is that at some point when the people started looking at the 10-Ks that were produced by Silicon Valley Bank, they could see that the bank was losing money like crazy, and so they started pulling their deposits out of the bank. That’s called a run on the bank, and that run on the bank, it resulted in, of course, what we’ve heard last week, which was the demise of Silicon Valley Bank, because soon as those deposits started leaving and they had all these loans out, then, of course, the Fed had to step in, the FDIC and guarantee the depositors the money they had in the bank.
So, it’s a matter of the bank putting all of its eggs in one basket, and the eggs in one basket, say the basket was the mortgage-backed securities, and so that’s the basket, of course, is the problem. They didn’t do any hedging. Hedging mean you find a way to offset the potential drop in something, whether it be the currency or whatever. You have to figure out some way to hedge your bet, as you would, they call it hedging your bet, and the bet they had was that the mortgage-backed securities would be a stable currency form and that turned out to be false.
So, I don’t put 100% of the blame on Silicon Valley Bank in the sense of the word that they got caught, as you would, in the wrong place at the wrong time using these really low rate securities to hedge their deposits. Unfortunately, with the interest rate going up, and now it’s in excess of 5%, five and a quarter percent, that damaged, significantly, the loaning capability of Silicon Valley Bank, and so customers say, “I don’t want my money sitting in a bank where the interest rate is only maybe a few percent when I can go out and go to money market or other places and earn two times that.” I think right now the interest rate’s somewhere, that money market’s paying, is four and a half percent, roughly, four to four and a half percent, and maybe even higher. Maybe it’s going to go over five.
Then, Silicon Valley Bank wasn’t the only one that had a problem. We had the First Republic, which is also a, quote-quote, a Silicon Valley bank. They were started in the Bay Area in Silicon Valley, and they were also in trouble, and so other banks have jumped in to help, Morgan Stanley. Banks, the big banks like that have jumped in to help First Republic. So it’s not just Silicon Valley Bank. As I said, I start out by saying Credit Suisse in Switzerland, First Republic Bank. So it’s not just Silicon Valley Bank.
There’s a lot of banks that … and we have somewhat of a banking crisis right now where, because these interest rates have gone up so quickly, and the Fed should have known this, the Fed should have known that by increasing interest rates as quick as they did, that that would significantly damage the bond market and hurt the banks. So we’ve ineffectively, because of inflation, because of the high interest rates, we have, in effect, have caused ourself a banking crisis. So that’s it in a nutshell, Rob, as to what happened. So just that Silicon Valley Bank had more eggs in her basket than others did, and so they weren’t diversified enough in their deposits.
Rob Artigo: You were, excuse me, a significant source of information on this because, like you said, you understand the players and the history that went around SVB and the other banks. You live in the area, this is right in your wheelhouse, you’ve done venture cap, you’ve had to deal with startups, and I think what’s significant about this is that there are a lot of people who got their loans from SVB and the other banks you mentioned to get their startups going and to keep them running, and suddenly they found themselves not able to get their deposits and not able to meet payroll and the other issues that occurred. If I’m a startup operator and I’m looking for a loan, am I in danger of making a bad decision in where I put my money for fear of being locked out somehow?
Ray Zinn: Well, not locked out. Let me correct something you said.
Rob Artigo: Okay.
Ray Zinn: I’ve never been involved in venture funding. So, I mean, I’m familiar with it.
Rob Artigo: Well, I think, Ray, I think you’re correct. Thank you for that, because I think what I mean is that you’ve been in the circles where people are … where you understand people that are in the startup arena.
Ray Zinn: Yeah. So are you in danger? Your loan, you’re not in danger on your loan. I mean, your loan’s at a certain interest rate. Where you’re in trouble is if you’re a depositor in the bank, because that’s the asset. Your loan is not an asset. Your loan’s a liability. So you’re not in trouble on your loan at all. You’re in trouble on your asset, which is your deposit. That’s the problem, and that’s what caused the demise of Credit Suisse, Silicon Valley Bank and First Republic, is the run. The customers were pulling their deposits out and putting them where they could earn more interest. Silicon Valley Bank just could not, or nor First Republic or Credit Suisse, could not compete on the interest rate because they’re getting only one and a half percent, let’s say, on the money that they got from mortgage-backed securities.
As you know, bonds, they go down when the interest rate goes up. So if you wait until a bond terms out, then, of course, you get all your money back, but unless the bond terms … if you have to unload the bond before it terms out, that’s a loss. You’re going to lose money, and they lost billions of dollars because they were having to sell those bonds at a 25, 30% discount, and that’s billions of dollars that they lost. That’s what you could see on the 10-K and should have alarmed or alerted you, if you were a manager, a risk manager at the bank, you should’ve seen that.
Of course, what do you do? Keep it a secret? You can’t because you got to report it in your 10-K, which is a reporting form that you use every quarter to report your financial results. So the fit was going to hit the shan any day. There’s no question about it, and, of course, it did, and, of course, we see the result of that. So I think that they’re … when they do the investigation, I think they got to look at what kind of hedging did they do, what kind of protection did they provide their depositors?
Now it is, as it turns out, the FDIC came in and bailed everybody out. Because your deposit was only guaranteed at $250,000, and they’re guaranteeing deposit, like Roku. They had $539 million that they had sitting at Silicon Valley Bank. So they bailed out this big company called Roku, which is that entertainment streaming service.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. Right.
Ray Zinn: They bailed them out, but that wasn’t … I was surprised. I thought that, for sure, anybody that had deposits in there over $250,000 was not going to get their money back, or not in excess of 250,000, but FDIC came in and bailed them out. That shocked me.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. It was crazy.
Ray Zinn: I think the total FDIC book is about 100 billion. So, I mean, FDIC’s not going to have any money left pretty soon. Now, they’ve been selling off some of the assets of Silicon Valley Bank, so they’ll get that back, but, I mean, there’s a limit to how much the FDIC can really fund these deposits in excess of $250,000.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, and we have to wrap this up real quick here shortly, but let me, on that concern, is the FDIC ensures up to $250,000 of your deposit, and then it comes out and says, “Oh, we’re going to bail that bank out completely.” Does it set up a dangerous precedent that the FDIC is saying, “No matter how big your investment is, we’ll back that,” so they would raise from 250 to infinity, basically?
Ray Zinn: Well, I think the government’s going to have to take a look at that. I mean, there’s not an unlimited amount of money that the FDIC can cover, so I don’t know where they’re going to go with that. I know that Congress is going to investigate this whole banking issue. So here we go again, 2008, here we go. I mean, it seems like we can’t learn from the past. So I have a saying, he who repeats the past fails in the future, and so that’s what we’ve seen. We’re repeating the past and we’re going to fail if we don’t get our act together and be a little smarter about the way we manage the assets of this country.
Rob Artigo: As this goes forward, there’ll be that investigation. There’ll be more information to be gained and hopefully a lesson for anyone about how the banking system works and about how protected their funds are and proper decision making. It just seems like it’s a time to learn so that you don’t make those same mistakes in the future, right?
Ray Zinn: Well, we haven’t learned everything yet. We don’t know any skullduggery, what they were doing with managing the bank, banks, and now that we got three of them. So there’ll be investigations that we’re going to have to get to the bottom of what … because these controls that we want to put in on the bank have to be based on some logic, and so they’re going to have to investigate what happened, why did it happen, what can we do to prevent it in the future? So we got to quit making these stupid mistakes that are really harming this country. So we got to make sure we elect the right people, I guess, is up for me.
Rob Artigo: I guess so, yeah. It’s one of those things where we have to be diligent, and if you want to think about the future, it doesn’t hurt to look into who’s on the board of a bank too, just to find out if you’re safe.
Ray Zinn: Yeah.
Rob Artigo: As always, you can reach out to Ray Zinn with your questions at toughthingsfirst.com, continue, excuse me, your education and conversation with all the podcasts, blogs and links to information about Ray’s books. Tough Things First, you want to get that, it’s essential, and then the other books are The Zen of Zinn. There’s one, two and three, and all three of them will be of benefit to you, so please check them out. Great conversation, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob.
“The Failure of Silicon Valley Bank (SVB) was a prime example of people and organizations who seek to place blame instead of learning from the experience.” In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses how the successful business leader profits from knowing what to do when “crap happens.”
Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, your guest host for this edition of the Tough Things First podcast. I’m a writer and investigator in California. Here with me is Ray Zinn, the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley history. Hello again, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hi there, Rob. So good to be with you today.
Rob Artigo: I thought it might be a good idea to talk a little bit more about Silicon Valley Bank. Only in that you wrote, “The failure of Silicon Valley Bank was a prime example of people and organizations who seek to place blame instead of learning from the experience.” I thought, you know what? We talked about Silicon Valley Bank, but this is a great aspect of this because it’s not the issue about the failed banks, which includes Silicon Valley Bank and others. Credit Suisse comes to mind, but going forward, we’re going to learn more about what happened and we don’t really know much.
But tell me a little bit about what you mean about an organization where the culture basically is to place blame instead of learning from the experience. Let’s talk a little bit about that.
Ray Zinn: Well, that’s an interesting one. As I’ve mentioned in that musing, I said, “Crap happens”. The word that term crap comes from is John Crapper invented the toilet, and so it’s a play on his name as you would. It’s what we mean when we say crap happens.
Things happen whether you get rear-ended in an automobile accident, or whether you slip and fall on ice, or whether you bump your head on the cupboard door, or whatever. Stuff happens. If you bumped your head on the cupboard door, did you say that dang cupboard door? Or do you say, gee, that was pretty stupid of me to leave that door open.
It’s interesting how we as humans want to place blame rather than take on the responsibility ourselves for the outcome of what happened. It’s a typical human nature, I guess, is to say somebody else is at fault, not me, because I feel better if I can say, as they say, the devil made me do it. Let’s say you did something wrong that you regret and you just said, well, the devil made me do it. So we had to place the blame on the devil. Darn that devil and darn that cupboard door or that person who rear-ended me, that I wish that person would’ve kept their eye on the road or whatever. We always find somebody to blame rather than take on that responsibility ourselves.
There’s a term we use called accepting responsibility, and so accepting responsibility doesn’t mean to say I’m sorry. Well, it does, it includes that, but it’s not just, I’m sorry, I wished I hadn’t done that. Please accept my apology. Accepting responsibility means number one, you acknowledge that you made a mistake. I bumped my head on the door, and so you acknowledge it. So you say, I did it. I’m the one that bumped my head. The cupboard didn’t bump my head, I bumped my head. Then you confess it. You just say, hey, that was a stupid thing for me to do. I’m sorry, I wish I hadn’t have done that.
Then we have to make amends, so in other words, we got to correct the mistake, like close the door or when you get through taking whatever we want out the cupboard, we’ve got to close the door rather than leave it open. Fix the problem.
Accepting responsibility, the biggest challenge is fixing it. In fact, that’s why most people don’t accept responsibility is because they don’t have to fix it and fixing it does become an issue. That’s the challenge. I used to tell my designers at Micrel, if you make a mistake in a design and we all make mistakes, you got to correct it so it doesn’t hurt the company. Well, it’s hard to get them to do that because they want to charge me for the extra time they got to put in to fix the design issue. Whereas they ought to come in on the weekends, they ought to come in and stay longer at night or whatever, so that there’s no harm to the company.
In other words, if you accept responsibility, you accept the harm, not put the harm on someone else. That’s the challenge we have is fixing the problem without causing harm to someone else. We need to accept the harm as you would.
Then, of course the last part is don’t do it again. Don’t repeat that mistake because if you repeat it, it’s going to happen again. Learn from your mistakes. The bottom line, accepting responsibility means acknowledging you made a mistake and then fix it on your own. In other words, you take the harm, you take the responsibility for fixing it.
I betcha nine times out of 10, most people don’t take on the harm themselves to fix the problem. They want somebody else to come in like the FDIC, in the case of the Silicon Valley Bank, to pay off depositors for the money they would’ve lost if the FDIC had stuck to the $250,000 limit.
But we can’t always have somebody else bailing us out. We got to bail ourselves out, and that’s what’s called accepting responsibility. We have to learn what it means to accept responsibility. It’s not just saying, I’m sorry or I apologize. I wished I hadn’t done this or that or whatever. Saying you’re sorry is just words. Fixing the problem without harming someone else is the challenge, and for whatever it takes to fix the problem. It’s painful sometimes, it’s painful to accept responsibility.
Rob Artigo: As a business leader and you had decades at the helm of Micrel, I think what I’m hearing from you is the difference between leadership and bold leadership is if you’re a leader and you can hold people to the standard that you want to, you’re talking about the difference between the success of the company or the failure of the company, the profits of the company versus the losses.
If you are able to hold people to account and say, look, that it benefits us if you’re open and honest about this. When stuff goes sideways and crap happens, you got to deal with it and you got to come forward and state that here’s the issue and this is what happened, and then take responsibility for it.
Ray Zinn: That’s the key. The key is that rather than cause somebody else harm from your mistake, you accept the harm and do whatever it takes no excuses to pull yourself out of the dilemma that you brought upon yourself and others.
One of the cultures at Micrel was doing whatever it takes, no excuses. That means you’ll do whatever you have to do. No excusing, no blame. Don’t say, well the dang software did this or the power went out or blame…
Rob Artigo: There’s no internet.
Ray Zinn: Right, no interest. Exactly. Boy, I heard that one before. No internet or somebody screwed up the email, or I don’t know what happened. We don’t seem to want to fix the problem. We want to blame somebody else for the mistake. See then if you can find somebody else to blame, then of course you don’t have to fix it or you don’t have to fix it at your expense. That’s the key, and so the real accepting of responsibility is you take on yourself the damage. You fix the damage, whatever it takes, you fix the damage and that’s accepting responsibility.
Sometimes the Japanese, they had a thing called hara-kiri, which means they would commit suicide if they failed. A failure in Japan means you didn’t fix that problem, you just killed yourself. Of course that doesn’t fix the problem. It may fix your problem, it doesn’t fix the problem.
Rob Artigo: It creates a problem. I mean for example, if you were to say, hey, look, well I’m leaving. In the modern business world, the equivalent of that would be quitting and leaving and going someplace else because you can’t handle the fact that you made the big mess-up, but there’s a hole in the staff and your value is, you may still have value at the company. Don’t throw everything away. Just accept responsibility and move forward.
Ray Zinn: Well, in the case of the people at Silicon Valley Bank, they were terminated. They didn’t quit. If when this problem occurred when they didn’t have the proper hedging, the person responsible for that should have resigned or done something to fix it, that went out of their way to deal with it. But they didn’t. Everybody still had their job and they got their pay, maybe even got a severance pay, I don’t know. But I don’t think they paid much of a penalty other than that they had to go find another job.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, no consequences for their actions doesn’t spell good things or doesn’t mean necessarily good things for the future.
Ray Zinn: Right.
Rob Artigo: All right, well thanks again, Ray. I mean, there are probably a lot of different topics we’ll come up with that are related to the failure of banks in the country because it’s an ongoing topic, but a lot of lessons to be learned just about being an astute investor, being responsible about where you leave your money, that kind of thing.
But anyway, so you can join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions and comments are always welcome. Follow Ray Zinn on Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn, and you can find those links at toughthingsfirst.com.
Pick up Ray’s books as well, “Tough Things First” is the essential book that you need to get your hands on, and also the “Zen of Zinn.” There are three of those books and they’re all of value to help guide you through the day, get your mind set on the right things throughout the course of the day. That’s doing the tough things first. “Eating the Ugly Frog,” all the things that Ray likes to point out. You won’t regret it. Thanks again, Ray.
Ray Zinn: You’re welcome. Thank you, Rob.
You can’t control the world, but you can lead your company through a downturn. How? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explains, in simple terms, how to tighten the budget belt while saving your profits and people.
Rob Artigo: Rob Artigo here, once again, your host for this edition of the Tough Things First Podcast. I’m an entrepreneur in California. It’s wonderful to be back with you, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Well, I’m looking forward to this one very much, Rob.
Rob Artigo: Well, let’s talk about the fiscal belt and tightening it. Current circumstances in the economy and America around the world indicates that a lot of businesses are going to be interested in trying to figure out how to save money. I mean, we’ve already seen layoffs in 2023. And this is about how to cut expenses, how to also conserve cash in a downturn. So, you’re famous for decades of profitability at Micrel Semiconductor, and part of that was ensuring that you had operating capital in the bank to make sure that you could weather those storms for a period of time. So, let’s start with telling the listeners about having a strong foundation.
Ray Zinn: Well, the strongest foundation you can have, of course, is cash, because that’s what keeps the doors open.
Ray Zinn Cont.: And you want at least six months to a year’s worth of working capital whenever you start your year or start your quarter. If you do a rolling six months or a rolling year planning, you want to make sure you have enough cash to last you through a downturn. Downturn typically lasts about a year and a half, year to year and a half, maybe two years. But that’s about the total length of a downturn. And we are entering one as we speak. I don’t see the economy reversing itself until third quarter of 2024. So, we’re getting into it now. This is probably going to be at least a year and a half, two year downturn that we’re looking at, because we’ve already been in one since three or four months ago. We’ve been in this recessionary situation.
So, for those who are listening to this podcast, recognize that things not going to get better until third quarter of 2024. So, having said that, one of the key things about managing your business during a difficult time is to understand discretionary spending versus non-discretionary spending. So, discretionary spending is where you have the money, you have a need and you want to acquire something, but it’s not mandatory. In other words, it’s not something that you have to do, but it’s something you’d like to do. And maybe it’s to grow your business, maybe it’s to expand your operation. And so, that’s called discretionary. Non-discretionary are things like rent, employee salaries, taxes, your power and electricity, your gas and electricity, just things that you have to have, you can’t do without them or you just shut down. So, that’s called non-discretionary, things you have to have that you can’t avoid.
So, those go at the top. See, what you do is you have your list of your spending. You should do that. You should take a look at all your spending. And at the very top, you put down rent, and then of course, maybe taxes. Put on your ones that you have to do or you’re going to be shut down. And then once you listed all those we call non-discretionary. And they total that up and that ends up with a certain number. And you look at that number, and that number should represent if you’re on a difficult recessionary period, that number, it should be more like 80 to 90% of your total spend. In other words, what you’re going to do, then you look at your cash available, available cash, and then that will help define what your runway is. In other words, how long can I survive?
Because then you look at what kind of income you’re going to have coming in, and then that adds to the cash you have and that’ll tell you how long you can stay in business, but just looking at the non-discretionary. So, during a difficult or recessionary period, the discretionary ones are the ones that go at the bottom, very, very bottom of the page. And maybe you have to discount those all together and say, we are not going to do any discretionary spending until the economy turns around. So, that’s the way you go about managing yourself during a recession.
Rob Artigo: That’s conserve cash. I guess, would you also category some of those discretionary spending expenses that you’re cutting? I mean, I think of the government, the government goes, “Well, when we cut spending, all that really is is a reduction in the amount we’re going to increase.” But in business, we can’t really get away with that. So, when we cut spending, we can cut discretionary spending, but is there a time when we have to go further than that?
Ray Zinn: Yeah, well, sure. Well, okay, let’s back up a minute. So, deficit spending is spending money that you don’t have, that’s called deficit spending. So, get that clear. So, if you’re deficit spending, your runway is going to be very, very short, especially if your income is dropping off. And so, if you say, “Okay, now we need to look at going into the non-discretionary,” like at Micrel, what we did is we either offered them vacation time, more vacation time, more time off as you would, more holidays, or I asked them to take a pay cut. So, the first thing we did, of course, we asked them to take more time off. So, if they didn’t have holidays or didn’t have the vacation time built up, then of course, it was just going to eat into their income.
But most employees are willing to cut back either in their vacation or holiday time and not take a pay cut. So, then next step you say, okay, now, that’s not going to be enough, now we going to do pay cuts. So, then you go in and you take a pay cut, whatever pay cut my employees took, I doubled it for myself. So, if I require them, I take a 10%, I took a 20%. And sometimes I took 100% depending upon where the cash was. I’m helping with a couple of companies and helping them manage their finances, and the last thing that they’re willing to do is cut their salaries. Well, but you may have to. And I tell them, if you don’t cut your salary, if you don’t cut back that pay to certain employees, you’re not going to last. You’re going to run out of money.
Now you can go to your landlord, if you’re renting a building and you can talk to them about maybe giving you a little hiatus on paying rent, or maybe you cut back on the rent, tell them make it up when business improves. Or you can go some of your other creditors and ask them to give you a little bit of runway on payables, maybe going from 30 days to 60 days and 90 days or 120 days, you can do that. So, there’s some things you can do, providing you show them that you’ve cut out all this discretionary stuff and that you have taken some of the hard decisions about reducing salaries.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. You’re not going to get that cooperation, whether it’s from your employees or creditors, if you are also engaged in frivolous spending.
Ray Zinn: Right. Yeah.
Rob Artigo: Hearing you talk about the things that you did during downturns for Micrel, I know from talking to employees, former employees of Micrel who said they were thankful that fewer people were let go or had to leave the positions because there was so much across the board cooperation when it came to that. I mean, when we’re talking about taking pay cuts, you’re talking about temporary moves, right?
Ray Zinn: Exactly.
Rob Artigo: You’d get people back to their level when things turned around a bit. So, like I said, the employees, the former employees I talked to seemed like they were really into that. What was the reaction that you received generally when that happened? I’m sure it wasn’t something that came up very often.
Ray Zinn: Well, I mean, they’d much rather have a pay cut or less vacation, or they’re willing to make some sacrifice like that rather than being laid off, because they get their insurance or their medical insurance covered. They also have their social security covered. So, there’re things that they’re paying into while they’re employed that they don’t get paid into if they’re not employed. And so, they’d rather be employed at a lower level than unemployed at no level.
Rob Artigo: Right. And then during a downturn for a company, it’s a downturn in the economy in general. And people get worried about their futures. And they fret about, well, what if I lose my job? Their willingness, I mean, I think for a lot of people who haven’t gone through this before, would be surprised to see how willing people are to temporarily take a little bit of a pay cut in order to keep things going.
Ray Zinn: Absolutely. The first thing you do is cut back of your discretionary, cut that out. Almost go to zero. Non-discretionary, obviously, the biggest thing you have that’s non-discretionary is payroll. And as soon as you can scale that back, you have to be able to project out how long you think a recession is going to last, how long things are going to be difficult. And as I just mentioned, we know in this particular case, at least based on my model, that we’re looking at third quarter of 2024 before the economy’s going to start improving or reversing. So, we’re into it now. We need to be prepared for it. And one of your biggest non-discretionary spends is salaries, payroll. So, get on that quick. Don’t wait until the last minute, because you may find out that you’ve waited too long.
Rob Artigo: There are tough decisions that business owners and managers need to make and be prepared for. For our listeners, please rate this podcast on your favorite platform. And as always, you can reach out to Ray Zinn with your questions at toughthingsfirst.com. There you’ll find the social media links, blogs, and links to information about the book, Tough Things First. Also, pick up Zinn of Zinn one, two, and three. It’ll help you out. Books on entrepreneurship, leadership management, but also on discipline, determination, and life skills. It’s the Zinn of Zinn one, two, and three. Thank you, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Well, it’s good to be with you, Rob.
Do you want it to be true so badly that you sink the ship? In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explores the truth behind one of techs greatest blind spots.
Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, your guest host for this edition of the Tough Things First podcast with Ray Zinn, the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley. Hello, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hi Rob. Boy, so nice to be with you again today.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, I’ve got a good subject here, because it’s one of those buzzword types of subjects. Because we always have buzzwords these days, and confirmation bias is one that has come up in conversation in the business world for me frequently, recently. The definition that I found for confirmation bias is the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one’s existing beliefs or theories.
So in my mind, that means that it’s when you grasp onto those elements that prove your original idea and discount those things that disprove, like surrounding yourself with people who say, “Yeah, that’s good, that’s good, that’s good,” and they’re not really being honest about it. But you get a lot out of it because you’re like, “Hey, this is great,” but it’s not necessarily true. Have you seen this kind of thing occur in the creative environment of research and development?
Ray Zinn: Absolutely. This is kind of the NIH concept, not invented here. You always think that your idea is the best idea, or when you first get the first evidence you have that something is been true that you found to be true, then you don’t look outside of it. It’s kind of like that flat Earth theory.
For those of you who aren’t knowledgeable about geography, back in the day of Columbus, they believed the Earth was flat and you couldn’t convince them otherwise. In fact, my son tells me that there’s still people who believe in the flat Earth theory, that the earth is not round. It’s flat.
And so that’s that NIH, or that you have this preconceived idea of what something is and you won’t look at any other evidence. “Don’t confuse me with the facts. My mind’s made up already.” And so the flat Earth theory versus a round, spherical Earth is one that I bring to mind that people can understand, that you have this belief and you refuse to get off of it. We see a lot of it in this green, this world heating up, and there are oceans boiling and whatnot. There’s a lot of controversy in this green deal where we feel Earth is only going to live another few years and is going to disappear or something, and so it’s kind of like that.
If you’ve got this religious belief of a particular concept or idea, flat Earth or spherical Earth or whatever, or green Earth or green this or that, the global warming, it is hard to get off of it, because that’s that confirmation bias that we’re… In other words, you want to believe for some reason, whether you want to believe that the Earth is warming up, because it matches what your belief is.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. And I was watching something the other day on television on, I think it’s called American Greed, but it’s where they talk about these huge scams and whatnot. And I saw one about the Nikola electric semi-truck, the fuel cell electric semi-truck, and they had built a truck that the CEO or the guy who created the company tried to pass himself off as the Elon Musk of electric or alternative fuel semi-trucks. And the big thing was that he put this truck, this semi-tractor on display and he said, “Look at all the gadgets. Come in. Look at it. This thing, this is a running, working truck,” and he really just had the thing wired in through the floor and it was being run off of, plugged into the wall somewhere.
Ray Zinn: Well, it’s the same thing with that Theranos, with Elizabeth Holmes, that blood sampling machine.
Rob Artigo: Right.
Ray Zinn: She was so convinced that it could be done, and I believe she really thought it could be done. It’s just that it wasn’t done before. She actually was out raising money, raised like $835 million, and she had a number of real key people on her board, like Henry Kissinger and George Schultz and people like that. And so she had convinced a lot of really bright people that this was possible, but she start promoting this machine before she actually developed the methodology to do the blood workup that was necessary to be accurate and correct.
She probably believed in it, but again, she wasn’t able to get it to work. And so at some point, people started looking into the original concept of it and said, “Wait a minute. This is not going to work.” Of course, now she’s been convicted and she’s probably going to prison.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. And Ray, by that point, they’ve already lost their investment, their original investment. And I think the thing is, is that because of confirmation bias, people will, because they want it to be true so badly, they’re willing to be blind to the red flags.
Ray Zinn: Well, that’s that confirmation bias thing, where you want something to happen so bad that you’re unwilling to look at other aspects. Could be a marriage. Maybe you want your marriage to work so well that you don’t notice the red flags that are coming up in your marriage and therefore, you got this confirmation bias that he brought you home flowers one night and so, “Oh, my marriage is solid.” Well, that’s just a fluff. That doesn’t mean your marriage is solid just because he brought you home flowers one night or vice versa.
So again, this confirmation bias is something that we really have to take a look at. You have to be willing to question things. As you would look at alternatives, look at, “What is my bias?” And in fact, we all need to do that. We all need to say, “What kind of biases do we have that prevent us from being truthful?” And that’s what we’re talking about in this podcast.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. I mean, we can make a list. The question that I really want to pose here is when you’re managing a team that’s involved in R&D, your job, your profit going forward, lots of things rely on continuing to have forward momentum in research and development and making things new and better, and improving on old products or creating new ones. But how, in that environment, Ray, do I encourage my team to avoid falling into the trap of confirmation bias?
Ray Zinn: That’s exactly what we’re talking about is questioning everything, not just believing the first thing you see. “My husband brought me home flowers, so therefore, my marriage is solid.” You need to work on it all the time, questioning some of the data you have, making sure that your data is correct. The worst thing you can do as a golfer is get a hole in one in the first tee-off, because then you think you’re indefensible and you’re such a great golfer. And so we want to make sure that just because something worked right the first time and this time, doesn’t mean it’s going to be that way every time. Again, just because your husband brought you home flowers, doesn’t mean your marriage is solid.
Rob Artigo: Right. And just because you have a couple of bucks in the bank, doesn’t mean your finances are solid. You got to have good footing, and the idea behind managing teams is really to help them be creative. You had this one, when somebody brought a product to you at Micrell, you said, “Hey, what are the potential negatives here? And I want to see a list of those negatives.”
Ray Zinn: Exactly.
Rob Artigo: And they tended to give short shrift to the negatives because they want their product to be successful, but you said, “Go back and check.” That’s one thing you can do. But we in smaller teams, can’t we encourage our folks in the smaller teams to spend a little time just writing down a list of those things that they can bring back to the group that are the negatives?
Ray Zinn: Yeah, that’s the whole concept of this having equal number of cons that you do pros. If you have nothing but pros for doing something, then you just aren’t looking at your project well enough, so you want to have equal number of cons. It means that you’ve looked at all of the negatives. I get a kick out of sometimes, what we call PDPs that we had, product definition proposal, that it was interesting just to read some of their cons, their reason why their project wasn’t a good one, because they were nonsensical. It’s almost hilarious to read the cons more than the pros, because you can see where their bias is, because their cons really aren’t cons. They make them almost sound like pros. So again, you want equal number of valid cons as you do pros.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. Well, Ray, appreciate the conversation. Again, this is one of those things I think that will be a very popular podcast, because the idea of confirmation bias is something that comes up in the business world, and we all know that we want our products and our businesses to be successful. So it’s super easy to sit back and say, “Oh…” Again, I go back to the yes man. We know that people will surround themselves with people who will just validate everything they do without worry about the consequences, because they just want to continue to validate that person’s stuff.
Ray Zinn: Exactly. Yeah.
Rob Artigo: Well, this is a fast-growing podcast and we enjoy having everyone listening here at Tough Things First, and joining Ray and collecting some great wisdom every week, every two weeks on the podcast. So please make sure that you are going to wherever you’re listening to this podcast now, rate the podcast, get involved. If you want to talk to Ray, you want to send him a message, you can do that by going to toughthingsfirst.com and leave a message there. Ray does read the messages.
Also, if you haven’t yet picked up Tough Things first, the book, make sure you do that, because it’s really, if you’ve got that book in your hand and you’ve gone through that, then you’re continuing that education. You’re making yourself a better business leader. You’re making yourself a better developer of products, which we’ve talked about here. You’re going to find yourself not being drawn into confirmation bias. You’re not going to be involved in frivolous activities.
You’re going to be able to focus your business mind on the success of your business and profitability, which is what Ray’s all about here at Tough Things First, and helping you also navigate life in so many ways. Which is why the other books, Zen of Zinn One, Two, and Three will help you out with some daily affirmations and some great thoughts that you can make sure you put yourself in the right frame of mind every day. Looking forward to the next time, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob. Appreciate your time.
No matter how dialed-in, intriguing, and dynamic, your startup pitch is, if you try to sell hamburgers to an aardvark, you’re just wasting the aardvarks time. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn talks about why choosing your audience carefully earns respect and results in success.
Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, your guest host for this edition of the Tough Things First Podcast where I get a chance to talk with Ray Zinn, as noted there, the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley, and that’s for a good reason. Hi Ray, it’s good to be back with you.
Ray Zinn: Hey Rob, so good to be with you again.
Rob Artigo: Well, Ray, we’ve talked a lot about pitching on this show, we’ve mentioned Shark Tank. We’ve gone in depth in different aspects of pitching, but one thing that we haven’t talked about really is the idea of choosing your audience. And I imagine that the best way to describe this to people is to picture the panel at Shark Tank, and each one of those people. When you go out there, the way they’ve got that show designed is there are some crossover between what each one of them can do to a certain extent. But are they willing to, do they want to? That’s a whole different story. But you have people who actually just deal in fashion, deal in home shopping network, deal in different kinds of technology, that kind of thing.
Ray Zinn: If you look at the Shark Tank panel, you’ve got Barbara, who’s real estate. Well, they switch off, they bring on guests from different areas. But you have Lori who’s a multimedia, she sells through multimedia. You have Kevin who’s more of a wine connoisseur, or banking, or he likes to do the ones where there’s a way to do the licensing. He likes that, and so if there’s a licensing opportunity. And then there’s Rob, I think, who’s a technical guy, he is a software type, and so is Mark Cuban. So Mark, he’s more of a software guy. He had a big software company and he’s more of a big market. He’s a marketing guy, so they have a cross section. So that’s a little different group than you would have if you went down on Page Mill Road in Silicon Valley, they all have specialties, and of course Silicon Valley is more technical. So if you want to start up a food connoisseur company, you wouldn’t go to Page Mill Road.
So you have to make sure you pitch your idea, your concept, your mission, to a group that has some expertise there, whether it be real estate or multimedia marketing, or real estate, or whatever. Make sure that you pick people who have some idea of the market that you’re trying to penetrate. So you’re already have to the right audience. Obviously it’s like when we write books, you and I have written these books and pitched them to different publishers, we had to make sure that that book fit the market that they focus on. Unless you go to one of the big five or publishers, most of these publishing companies have specialties, religion, fiction, business, so forth. So you just want to make sure that you’re pitching your product idea to the right publisher or market.
Rob Artigo: That’s a great example because whatever your business is, you’re selling it to somebody else. You’re selling the idea to somebody. You’re selling the hope and aspirations, the plan for this company. “This is what I’m going to do, this is what I’m selling, this is how I’m going to make money.” You have your whole concept to layout before them, hopefully quickly. But if at the end of the thing you’ve talked so fast that the person sits there and says, “I really think this is an interesting idea, but it’s not for me because I’m not in that area,” you’ve really shot yourself in the foot.
Ray Zinn: You hear that on Shark Tank all the time. “I don’t have any experience in this area,” or, “I don’t like that product,” or, “That’s not for me,” or whatever. Or, “I’ve already got a company that’s already in that market, and so I feel like it’s a conflict of interest.” The saying about selling refrigerators to Eskimos, I’ve heard that since I’ve been a child.
Rob Artigo: Sure.
Ray Zinn: And that’s a euphemism for saying you’re trying to sell something to somebody who doesn’t need it. And so if you’re going go on Shark Tank and pitch your idea on Shark Tank or your business, you know the group that’s sitting there already. You know there’s five or six of them, and so you’re going to gear your pitch to that one person. You’re not going to pitch a non-marketing idea, multimedia idea to Barbara or something because her expertise is real estate. And so, same thing with Kevin. If it doesn’t have a licensing opportunity, don’t gear it toward that toward Kevin. And so it just goes right down the line of they have the five or six people on Shark Tank and you know that going in. You know when you’ve been assigned to be on that program, you got to make sure your pitch is suitable for one or two or how many that may want to invest in your product idea. So anyway.
Rob Artigo: You may also also find that in the process of getting out there and pitching your ideas that you find some people are in your area but they don’t like certain aspects of what your plan is, so that you are, I don’t know, maybe you’ve got a goblin widget that is involved in the process that they would be competing against in a certain way. And they’re like, because of that one aspect, it’s like you can’t remove it from your plan, but it’s like a boogeyman in their idea, like we can’t go into that field. You know what I mean? You could run into that kind of stuff.
Ray Zinn: That happens all the time.
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Ray Zinn: Again, depends upon where you’re going to be pitching it. If you’re going to pitch it on Page Mill Road in Palo Alto in Silicon Valley, then you make sure that your audience there has the expertise in the area in which you’re trying to raise money. And if you’re going to pitch it on Shark Tank or Shark Tank type, we have a panel of six people with six different areas of expertise. Make sure that your product idea or your mission is geared toward one or more of that panel. If your idea does not fit to one or more of those individuals, don’t do it. Now, on Shark Tank, that’s a TV program. So you may have a product that doesn’t match any of the ones that are sitting there, but because it’s funnier, because it has some kind of an appeal to the TV audience, they’ll still let you come on and pitch it. But that’s not real life. That’s TV.
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Ray Zinn: Okay?
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Ray Zinn: So unless you’re doing a Shark Tank, the proposal, your product idea has to be appealing to the investment group that you’re going after, whether it be an Angel Fund or whether it be another more mature, well-known like Sequoia Capital, you should know what they invest in. You can go online. Every one of those investment firms has a website. You can go on there, look at the kind of companies they invest in, and you ask yourself, “Do they have or have they invested in markets that match mine?” The one you want to go into.
So the purpose of this podcast is to make sure that your target audience and the investment audience has an appetite for the idea or product that you’re going to propose. And then when you get ready to pitch it, make sure that you have all the Is dotted and the Ts crossed and that they will not look skeptical on your proposal. And by the way, they’re going to, I guarantee you, they’re looking for the negatives. They look more at the negative than do the positives. And you need to know that. You need to know, okay, where are the limitations of my proposal? And then you focus on that so that you’re ready to overcome those objections.
Rob Artigo: And I think that it is an easier, it’s time-consuming, but it’s an easier thing to do than some entrepreneurs may think, and then they worry about it or get wrapped around the axle about it and then don’t do it, which is just data-mining the internet. You find somebody go, “Okay, I’m going to have a chance to talk to so-and-so.” Find out what their field is, what their areas of interests are, how to catch their attention. And you mentioned the fact that we’ve written books, and I’ve also written a whole bunch of screenplays and I’ve had opportunities to pitch various people. What I want them to do is I want them to be interested in what I’m doing. I’m giving them my elevator pitch and hopefully they’ll ask to see more material on it. Maybe they’ll want to see the screenplay.
But again, if I go to Ron Howard’s company, imagine Entertainment on the Web, I can look at what kind of movies they’ve made. If my movie’s not in one of their categories that they do, then there’s no reason for me to pitch them. It’s a waste of their time. It’ll just irritate them. So it’s the same thing, any kind of business environment.
Ray Zinn: I mentioned Page Mill Road and Palo Alto, Silicon Valley. There’s only a certain kinds of companies they’re looking for. They’re for those unicorns, the ones that are going to just break out and just go gangbusters in a very short period of time, which goes back to ethical versus unethical pitches. So faster you grow, the more you need to know, and that’s another saying I have. So if you grow fast, you better know more. Okay? So buyer beware. Investor beware.
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Ray Zinn: And then people who pitch your idea, you also need to be aware of the kind of companies that they will fund and that they’re interested in. Don’t waste your time on areas or people that are not going to understand what you’re doing.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. Another way that time is money is your time and effort is valuable too. Don’t waste it on ill-researched possibilities.
Well, thanks, Ray. As you know, you can reach Ray at Ray’s website, toughthingsfirst.com. Continue your education there and the conversation with all the podcasts, blogs, links to information about Ray’s books, Tough Things First, the Zen of Zinn, The Zen of Zinn 2, and The Zen of Zinn 3 out there on Amazon and elsewhere that you find your… Anywhere books are sold. So thanks again. Great conversation, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.
Is it easy to fall into the work-a-holic trap. Did you know that working 80 hours a week does not equal more productivity? Ray Zinn explains why in this new Tough Things First podcast.
Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, your guest host for this edition of the Tough Things First Podcast. I’m a writer and investigator in California. Here with me is Ray Zinn, the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley history. Hello, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hey Rob, it’s great to be with you today.
Rob Artigo: Well, in the 37 years that you were CEO of Micrel Semiconductor, you were known for being a hard worker but not known as a workaholic. Give us an idea of the difference between, in your mind, what it is to be a hard worker versus being a workaholic?
Ray Zinn: Okay, so working hard, which is a hard worker they kind of go together. Working hard and hardworking are the same. They just switched the adjectives around. A workaholic is just like an alcoholic. It’s something that takes over, that you can’t do without. In other words, you can’t survive without working. There’s a big difference between working hard, or hardworking, and not being able to do something else other than work, like an alcoholic.
Ray Zinn cont.: And it’s very hard to break. Being a workaholic is a hard habit to break and it destroys homes. Just because you’re working 24/7 as they say for a workaholic, that doesn’t mean you’re hardworking. It just means you just like to be involved in doing your job, your function, not necessarily you’re getting a lot done. There’s a huge difference between being a workaholic and being hardworking or working hard.
Rob Artigo: I think that it might be an easy trap to fall into if you’re motivated, and you want to prove yourself in the business world, no matter what your level. Starting out or starting out in management, or starting a business, as we talk about a lot on this podcast. That it’s pretty easy to go from being a dynamic invested person in your business, or in your employment, to basically wrecking your life because you’re a workaholic.
Ray Zinn: There was this well known CEO at a very large tech firm in the Silicon Valley that, I won’t mention his name, but people will know who I’m talking about. He used to live at the office. I mean, he actually had a bed there in his office area. He used to call meetings at two o’clock in the morning. Maybe he didn’t have a happy home life, or family life, or whatever, but he just stayed at work. That’s the classic definition of a workaholic. Not that he got a lot done, he just got so caught up in the business and the company, it becomes like a drug. And he just couldn’t live without it. Again, a bad habit starts real easy. It doesn’t take much to start a bad habit, but it takes a long time to reverse a bad habit into a good habit.
Just like an alcoholic, a alcoholic has to go to Alcoholic Anonymous and has to learn to do without the alcohol. A workaholic has to learn to do without that being at work 24/7. What I did is, again, I think I worked very hard, but I had limits. I didn’t work more than 10 hours a day max and I didn’t work weekends. That was just a golden rule. I never worked weekends. Saturday and Sunday did not work. I did that for my entire career, and especially running Micrel for 37 years. But no one ever thought I wasn’t working hard. They just knew I wasn’t a workaholic. They knew I loved my company, I loved the job, I loved my people, because I showed that while I was there. While I was doing that hard work, I was showing that.
But they knew that when it came time for, to go home, I went home. I didn’t stick around and I didn’t work odd hours. I tried to work kind of an eight to five job as you would. Had breakfast with my family in the morning and had dinner with my family at night. I did that my entire career. And so that my family knew that they were more important than my job, because our families are more important than our job. Even though our job is part of how we provide for our family, our family is the most important and we need to focus on that and not on our job.
Rob Artigo: It’s a place where you are, it’s a work-life balance. But when you’re in management and you have to evaluate your employees, I mean, your habit of walking around. And talking to your employees and getting to know them, I’m sure helped to identify those people who need a little guidance in that area, so that they don’t become addicted to working 24/7.
Ray Zinn: I know there are families where the husband doesn’t want to go home. Maybe he’s got a wife and doesn’t want to go home because they have a difficult family situation, and so they find it convenient just to stay at work. It’s a safe place for most people and they just get in a habit of just not going home. I know some homes that if I had that kind of home, in my case, that I’d probably stay at work. I can see that happening. If I did see that when I was running the company, or one of my managers saw that, I asked them to look into it. Find out if there’s a family situation that we need to address, because if you got a happy family, you got a happy employee. If you got an unhappy family, you have an unhappy employee.
Family is really important and we focus on that at Micrel. That family is number one, and Micrel is just another place for you to provide for your family, but it wasn’t number one. The purpose of this podcast is to get those that maybe are having difficulty, not working in 24/7, to really look at your family situation. And understand maybe why you’re not at home with your family, where you should be. Work is important, but it is not the most important.
Rob Artigo: Your productivity, what you were talking about, that you’re not necessarily more productive when you’re there all the time. And that’s something that, an employee, you have to walk them through these things, and see if they can self evaluate what their situation is. And recognize what they’re doing so that they can accept the fact that they aren’t being more productive, just because they’re working a lot of hours. I mean, you see them chalking up the time, they’re always there. Their car’s there, the first car in the morning, and the last car to leave. But that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re contributing any more than if they had taken their time to step back and take those weekends off like you said you did. I mean, you were able to compartmentalize and go, “All right, weekend, time for family. I’ve got kids to raise, I’ve got a wife to take care of. To give her some of my time and company. I can’t invest it all in the business world.”
Ray Zinn: Or the vice versa. If you’re a wife and you’re the female, and your husband is at home taking care of the family, that’s not going to be a healthy situation either. Again, the purpose of work is to provide for your family. It is not the end all. Happy family, happy employee. Take time for your family. Don’t be a workaholic. Anything that’s aholic is bad. Whether it be a hobby aholic, or whether it be an alcoholic or a workaholic, whatever, it’s not good. You need to carve out enough time for your family. I don’t think you need to work more than 10 hours a day. If you have to work more than 10 hours a day, there’s something wrong. Either in your efficiency, your ability to schedule, plan, develop, whatever it is you’re needing to do to provide for your job, you’re just doing something wrong. You never should have to work weekends unless you’re like a high patrolman or a fireman, and you have to work weekends. But you should not have to work weekends as a regular basis.
Rob Artigo: It’s a tough thing to do at work-life balance to get it right, but with one of the soundbites we play going into the podcast, our intro here at Tough Things First includes the soundbite with you saying, “If you think that you have to work 80 hours a week to be productive, then you’re just wrong.” I think about that all the time, and that there are people who will boast that they put in 80 hours this week. And you have to wonder did they do only 40 hours worth of productivity during that period?
Ray Zinn: It’s like going to a lecture, you only get about the first 10 or 15 minutes of value out of a lecture, and the rest of it you’re off in some other sphere. Same thing in a class when you’re learning, taking an educational class, if you’re not getting the gist of it in the first 15, 20 minutes of that class, the rest of it’s going to be a waste of time. Same thing at work, if you’re finding out that you’re not getting your job done in a eight-hour period. And you’re having to come back after dinner or something and work until midnight or whatever, then there’s just something wrong with either your project, your skillset set. Maybe this is not the right job for you because you should be able to get what you need to get done on a regular basis. Now, I mean, there may be exceptions. We’re talking on a regular basis. You should not have to be there more than eight hours, or 10 hours.
Rob Artigo: Good advice. Well, join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions and comments are always welcome. Follow Ray Zinn on Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn. Of course, pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First, and the Zen of Zinn. One, two, and three, you won’t regret it. Thanks again, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob.
Quiet quitting isn’t just a buzzword, it’s happening. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discussing this costly staffing dilemma and offers a simple solution. (Click here for the video podcast)
Rob Artigo: Welcome to the Tough Things First podcast, your indispensable source for business, leadership, and life advice with the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley. I’m your guest host Rob Artigo, and he’s Ray Zinn. Hello Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hello there Rob. So good to be with you this morning.
Rob Artigo: It’s good to be with you and good to be back. This is a special edition of the Tough Things First podcast. So if you’re just listening, you can go to the website, toughthingsfirst.com and you can find the podcast and then you can click on the link that’ll take you to Ray’s YouTube channel and you can watch the video there if that’s what you prefer to do. Make sure you rate this podcast wherever you find your favorite podcasts and keep us going strong. So Ray, I was reading Business Insider on the internet and I saw a headline recently that touted quiet quitting is the natural sequel to the great resignation as workers still rethink their jobs three years into the pandemic. Now, when I read that I was thinking, I’m not sure it’s a sequel. I think it’s part and parcel to the same process. Am I wrong?
Ray Zinn: No, you’re correct. And what’s interesting is that the pandemic, which came on in 2020 actually precipitated this concept of the great resignation slash quiet quitting.
Ray Zinn: So, allowing people to work from home has been the enigma of this whole issue of the great resignation and quiet quitting. I don’t know what percentage of people that really like their job, but I don’t think it’s greater than 75% and maybe half of them just tolerate it. I know that in my career I probably quit four or five times my job because I wasn’t that happy in what I was doing. And so if you give a person a reason not to be happy in what they’re doing, they’re going to look around, they’re going to try to find some other way to provide for their family.
If they have no choice, then that’s a different situation. But the pandemic gave them a choice. They could work from home, they could work from some other office, they could go work from a hotel room. This whole pandemic thing and the ability to do things like Zoom and other team viewing and whatever allowed people to work remotely. And I think as this remote concept is what’s precipitated this whole great resignation and quiet quitting. I know my son, for example, he loves working from home. He’s not looking forward to going back to the office.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, I was looking at the definition of quiet quitting and it says doing the bare minimum at a job without actually leaving. I’m sure your son is not doing the bare minimum working from home. He’s doing hard work and he’s dedicated, but there are people who, whether they’re working from home or working in an office or forced to go back to the office, that they’re just sort of running through the motions or showing up for work and checking in. I even heard the other day that somebody who worked for Meta was posting videos about how their, whatever their job is that they don’t do anything. So they would post videos of them showing up for work and going and having snacks at one of the restaurants in the building and then going over and doing something else.
They were literally posting videos of them doing nothing. So I don’t know if this person’s quiet quitting or just trying to announce that she’s not usable over there at Meta, and probably she’ll be laid off, but I see this trend. And then I was also thinking to the fact that Google just announced 12, I think it was 12,000 across the worldwide, their total numbers across the world, which is huge. So I don’t know if 12% might have, I mean 12,000 might have been 6% of the workforce or something, but again, you got layoffs going on. Do you think the fact that we’re seeing layoffs now because of the downturn in the economy will impact the way people behave, whether it’s quiet quitting or the great resignation?
Ray Zinn: I think it’s both. So let’s talk about this layoffs that are occurring mainly in the tech industry. So if you remember, Biden had this program where if you didn’t lay people off during the pandemic then you could get a tax credit. So that’s run out. So then all of these tax credits that these companies have been getting, keeping these people employed has now gone away because the pandemic’s over. So I think a good chunk of why Meta and some of Google and others are having these, and Microsoft, these big layoffs is because they’re not getting credit for keeping these people on, and at least that’s what I’m hearing. I met on Sunday, just a few days ago, I met with the Secretary of State for the state of Montana, and because she was doing some fundraising and she was talking about all things that she was accomplishing and had accomplished. She has been able to cut back her department by 75%.
In other words, she’s got one fourth of the number of people that she had just during the pandemic. And I thought that was interesting. And I said, well, how’d you do that? She said, “Well, because we’re being more efficient.” And so I think with people working from home or working remotely has allowed companies to look at really what progress do these people or what efficiencies do we get by having all this extra staff that we don’t need? And the companies haven’t been really trying to teamwork with their people, and people have been working alone because they’re remote. And so there’s been no team building, there’s been no camaraderie. And so it’s just like people who go to church, they go to church because to socialize. So part of the reason for going into the office is to socialize, like you talked about that lady at Meta. And so this whole socializing thing has been perturbated by the pandemic and people have been getting used to working alone. And so how do companies keep their employees enthused and motivated if they’re working remotely? That’s the key I see.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, and the culture at Micrel, which you were CEO O for 37 years, you were there at the beginning of a growth spurt for Silicon Valley, what created the namesake for the area, and you’ve seen downturns and you’ve seen upturns and you’ve seen everything in between and you’ve had to deal with staffing. And the culture at Micrel has always been one where people not only enjoyed working, but if they left they tended to want to try to find a way to come back because they found the culture someplace else not be as advantageous. Do you think that the working from home, from what I’ve heard you so far, I think the answer is going to be yes, but working from home has diminished the capacity of many companies to perform at their peak?
Ray Zinn: Oh, absolutely, at least in my opinion. There’s a book written called Managing by Walking Around, and that’s kind of what I used to do and a lot of my managers, we would walk around, visit with people, learn about their families, learn about what’s making them happy or unhappy. And you can’t do that if you’re remote and hardly any managers are managing people in the way that we used to before the pandemic. And so the whole concept of managing your staff or your people is changing. How do you manage remotely? That’s the key. In fact, we probably ought to write a book about managing remotely because that’s the way the world’s going, with the exception maybe of the restaurants and places that have to have people there.
More and more people are finding that working from home is great because they don’t have the commute time. They’ll save maybe two hours a day just not commuting, and that means that there’s more free time for the family. It just a much happier situation working remotely. But then how do you keep your employees happy? How do you keep them motivated and keeping them working together as a team if they’re really not working together physically as you would?
Rob Artigo: Yeah, and the communication when you were, your management style was, as you said, walking around. You would walk around and talk to people because getting to know them as people, not just in terms of what they’re doing on the job, you went around and you wanted to know what was going on in their lives, how they were doing, what was their work-life balance like. But I think when you’re managing remotely you may end up being the manager that talks at people instead of listening to them more often because it’s just a different communication than when you’re sitting there and you can put your hand on somebody’s shoulder when you’re talking to them. And your example of leadership contrasted to a remote environment I think is like you said, there are some good things about being able to work from home, and there are some things about management perhaps that aren’t going to work as well because you don’t have that personal touch.
Ray Zinn: I’m not sure that every family has a remote office in their home that they can work efficiently from. So they may be working at the kitchen table and their little kids screwing in and out, or maybe the phone’s ringing or the TV’s going in the background or whatever, and just so many distractions. So the efficiency is just going to go down, down, down. And so what companies are finding is that they know that this is happening and yet they’re getting the same amount of work out so they’re saying, well then why do I really need this person if my efficiencies or my projects are still getting finished on time and if this person we know is not being that efficient at what they’re doing because they’re working remotely.
So that that’s a problem, even though they’re not traveling or not doing the commute as much, not putting in the two hours a day commuting, they’re still getting a lot of distractions. Somebody knocking at the door, telephone ringing, their radio going in the background. I just can’t imagine the distractions that occur when you’re working remotely so that’s a challenge. So the concept of working remotely is what we have to figure out how to do a better job in managing our employees while they’re working remotely. So my suggestion is they almost have to have a group meeting either at the facility where they just socialize as you would just have a socializing time for half an hour or so.
Maybe they have some refreshments or whatever, but they just kind of get together. So you need people. We’re a very social animal. We need to be around each other. And so if you’re watching this video and listening to this podcast, consider having a little get together at work or at the office with those who can get to the office, get together once a week and for half an hour, an hour and just have a little get together, a little socializing, and maybe just have a way to talk about the business and review with them how business is going and keeping them in touch as you want them keeping them in touch with you. That’s a suggestion for those that are going to continue to work remotely.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, it seems to me that if you have somebody on the staff who is being passive aggressive, which I think is what that quiet quitting is really all about, just being there and taking up time and taking a paycheck, you can, in a social environment like that, you may be able to spot those people who are disenchanted and you may be able to save yourself the hassle. If you’re not in the middle of layoffs, you may be able to save yourself some hassle by identifying the person who is in that mode and then trigger something in them that gets them out of the quiet quitting mode and gets them recommitted to what they were doing at the business.
Ray Zinn: Yeah, stay in touch socially is very important. So the bottom line of this podcast that we’re doing today is to really encourage those who are going to have a remote work environment is to get together on some weekly basis at the office where you just socialize a little bit and maybe talk about the program, talk about how the company is doing, keep them engaged as you would. Don’t just let them sit around at home. We know that bad habits can occur within a day or two, and it takes weeks to get a good habit.
So, if the employee starts getting some bad habits and during the remote workday, that’s going to be hard to get them back on doing the right things, the good things that they should be doing because I’ll tell you what, I’ve worked from home also in my career, and it’s very easy to get distracted. I liked it because I had more flexibility. Nobody watching over my shoulder, nobody micromanaging me. I was able to just do my job and I felt that was great, but I could see how inefficient that was because of the distractions that occur when I was working remotely.
Rob Artigo: Well, a great podcast, Ray, really, and for the listeners you know can always reach out to Ray Zinn with your questions at toughthingsfirst.com. It’s a continuing education here as you know. If you’ve listened enough times you know that it’s a masters class in business and management. So keep joining us, keep coming back. We love having you here and having you listen to us here at Tough Things First. You can find more at toughthingsfirst.com on the podcasts, and also blogs and links to Ray Zinn’s books, Tough Things First and the Zen of Zinn 1, 2 and 3. And hope you enjoy those books as well. Make sure you get them and pick them up. It’s all part and parcel to what you’re hearing here at Tough Things First. So great conversation, Ray.
Ray Zinn: That’s great. Great. Good, stuff there, Rob.
It is one of the toughest tasks for the successful entrepreneur. That’s why your proof of concept should get done first! In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn discusses “Proof of Concept” as structured experimentation. Ray makes it easier to understand than it sounds.
Rob Artigo: Rob Artigo here once again, your host for this edition of The Tough Things First podcast. I’m an entrepreneur in California. Great to be back here again, Ray, for another great podcast.
Ray Zinn: Well, good to be with you again, Rob. I’m grateful that you’re able to do these with me. See, Rob used to be a radio announcer, and so he’s been able to go in and really hone his skills in this area.
Rob Artigo: Well, and I’m glad I can put them to some use, helping you out here on Tough Things First. I’m a big fan of what you do and I always get a lot from your knowledge and experience. Let’s just jump right into it, Ray. Let’s talk about proof of concept as it relates to structured experimentation. Finding out what fails and what works, but using those results to learn and grow and optimize to make a product that actually works and is a profitable product.
Ray Zinn: In other words, you’ve proven it, it’s viable. I know on Shark Tank, they often ask you, “Well, what’s your revenues?” That’s almost the first question out of their mouth is, “Well, what kind of revenues do you have? What’s been the experience so far?”
Ray Zinn Cont.: And that’s part of the proof of concept. Some of them say, “Well, we’re pre-introduction, we’re just ramping up”. That’s not proof of concept. Proof of concept is when you’ve actually gone out and has developed a viable product that has been proven. Proven means that it has been accepted, and the bugs have been primarily worked out. That’s the best kind.
If you’re going to be pre proof of concept, then, of course, there’s a lot of questions come up, “Well then, what’s the market? Who are your competitors? How are they doing”? It’s more of a longer explanation than if you get in and have a structured experimentation, which means you’ve already developed a proof of concept. I mean, you’ve developed a concept, now you’re going out and you’ve proven it. So that term that you really want to use is proof of concept.
Rob Artigo: It’s adapting the experimental model to your project. In other words, asking serious questions. If you go to pitch somebody with Shark Tank or someone else, they’re going to expect you to have answers, because they’re going to say, “Well, what happens if…” and “What do you do when there’s no power? What do you do when you run out of food or product or supporting products”? You don’t have the ball bearings that that’ll make this thing operate, what are you going to do? All these things are part of your experiment, right?
Ray Zinn: Well again, that structured experimentation is nothing more than proof of concept. So you say, “Okay, here is the idea and here’s the proof behind the idea to support it”. So if you’re not there, if you haven’t done that, then of course you’re probably not going to get funded.
At Micrel, the company that I founded in 1978, we had this thing called a PDP, which is a product definition proposal, that they had to come in with a package that defined the product. Here’s the idea, here’s the definition of that product, here’s the market for it, here’s the competition, here’s what it’s going to cost, the development, and here’s what the development time period and then the production time period looks like. And so it was a very important document. All the marketing guys that worked for me, they dreaded having to do these PDPs because you had to sit before the committee as you would, and you had to, just like a Shark Tank, “Hey, here, help me, fund it”.
The product definition proposal is really the same concept of what we’re talking about, this structured experimentation, or proof of concept. And so you have to show the viability and this product definition proposal, and our company was 30 something years old or whatever, 20 something years old when we were… I take that back, we were like 10 years old when we started this PDP process. But that’s that proof of concept, here’s my idea, and so here, please fund it.
Rob Artigo: Well, we talked about cryptocurrencies recently on this podcast, and FTX, the big collapse of that company. You can go back further to Theranos, and you can go back for much further to Enron. And if you’re working through creating products, let’s say you go through the process of this product experiment and you’re asking all these questions to test your product viability and everything else you’ve already described. What about asking yourself the question, could what I’m testing be unethical?
Ray Zinn: Well, that’s, again, goes into that product definition proposal what I’m talking about, because you need to define it in sufficient detail that it shows that this is not something that is a pig in a poke, as they say. This is something that is really viable, ethical, and substantial.
Again, a lot of companies do it fly-by-night. They’re just what they call fly-by-night proposals. I’ve seen a few of those that have come across my desk, what I call a fly-by-night proposal, which is the stealth type, which sounds a little bit unethical, as you would, being stealthy, unless you don’t want the enemy to see you. But anyway, that’s what we call fly by night. So I didn’t like fly-by-night proposals because they look too stealthy to me, whereas there’s something hidden here that I should know about. And of course, they would never admit they’re fly-by-night, but when our committee would dig into it, then we would say, “Okay, this looks a little unethical”.
For example, in my company, Micrel, if we were having some patent issues, conflicts, where the product looked like it was infringing on a patent, that to me is unethical. And even though the proposal might say, oh no, there’s no patent infringement, I would say, “Has a patent search been done? Is there any opportunity for a patent infringement problem”? And they’d have to prove it. They’d have to show how we’re not infringing, or how this is not unethical.
Rob Artigo: Your practice at Micrel for that 37 years, when people were coming up with ideas or were presenting ideas to you, and you often asked them to make a list of the pluses and minuses. Usually they would give short shrift to the minuses and you said, “No, go out and look for more minuses”. Certainly a potential lawsuit related to infringement on a patent would be a minus.
Ray Zinn: Right. And then how are you going to get around the patent? As you pointed out, there has to be equal number of pluses and minuses on the proposal. They could always come up with all the pluses, or the pros as they say, but they couldn’t come up with the cons of the minuses. They struggle, struggle, struggle. The reason is because they didn’t want to find any, and you’re not going to find something you’re not going to look for. So if they didn’t have an equal number of minuses or cons for the proposal, I wouldn’t even read it. The first thing I look for is the pros and cons, or the pluses and minuses, and if I didn’t see an equal number of minuses, then I would not even consider the proposal.
Rob Artigo: Would you start out in your process of structured experimentation on something with this kind of list, pluses and minuses?
Ray Zinn: Absolutely. They knew upfront that there was many, that I was looking for more, as many plus or minuses as I did pluses, or pros or cons as I do pros. So we always did that, and that was a struggle for them because they hate the list of cons because they’re afraid that we would dig into it. In other words, if certain minuses were there, they were flags, like patent infringement was a minus, and so then that required more digging. And of course, there’s no marketing person that wants their minuses to show up, in other words, to come out glaring, like patent infringement or some other dishonest or unethical thing.
But again, I’m serious. I required as many minuses as I did pluses. And if the pluses outweigh the minuses, not in quantity, but in quality, then you went ahead with it. You said, “Okay, the quality of the pluses have to be stronger than the quality, or the non-quality of the minuses”. We always look for, what are the negatives? Because that means, in other words, if they have a sufficient number of negatives to off offset their positives, then it means they’ve looked into it more. There’s better structured experimentation, as you say.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. And it has to be something that starts at the beginning or you end up leaving out something. And I do like thinking about the ethical factors in it. In my military experience, one of the things that I would do is I would, “Okay, well, here’s my plan. This is my plan”. But here is what I think could happen. Here’s what I think could happen. And you go, “What do you mean”? Well, I’m not trying to tell you don’t do this, I think this is the best plan. But I want you to know that before we do it, let’s talk about what do we do, if.
Ray Zinn: That’s the, what if, thing. We always, especially in military strategies, plans, these war game plans, these strategies that they come up with, they have to say the, what ifs. What if this or what if that. Honestly, if you watch Shark Tank, they ask more negatives. They really do. I mean, they focus so much on the negative, you hardly ever hear the positives. That’s why they say, “Well, I’m out”. There’s, I don’t know, five or six sharks on the panel, and inevitably 90% of the time, at least two or three, half of them are going to be out. They say, well, I’m out because of this or this, this doesn’t fit my strategy. I don’t see how I can help, or blah, blah, blah. So they focus more on the negatives than they do the positives, and they like presenters who have thought through the negatives. They really do. That’s the one that seems to light them up the most, are the ones where the people are really thought through some of the what ifs.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, the snappy response is if they propose a question and you don’t have to think about the answer, then they like that too, because they know that you’ve done that critical analysis. Because there’s always the danger that in your process that you don’t want to hear the negatives because your own personal confirmation biases that you just want to know that it’s good and you want people to tell you it’s good.
I think that hearing a negative doesn’t mean something’s not good. What you’re going to do is you’re going to take a serious consideration of those factors that may have a negative impact on your progress, and so that’s where your money’s going to come from. I mean, your money’s going to come from convincing people that you’ve got to handle on all these things because they’re, like you said, the Shark Tank, the first thing they do is they go, “Well, look, here’s the problems with this. Do you have a solution for that”? “Oh, well, you know what? Okay, all right, well, I’m out for that reason”.
Ray Zinn: You turn a negative into a positive, that’s what they’re looking for.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, because you’ve learned something from it or it has made your product stronger. It’s just as something as simple as building a wall. You’re putting up a wall, you’ve got your two by fours, and you’re putting everything together and somebody says, “Hey, let’s put this support here”. And somebody else says, “Well, you put that support there, that’s great, but you’ve got to add a support over here because this is going to make this area too heavy or something”.
Ray Zinn: For example, in the cryptocurrency story. Or the TFX, or FTX, I’m sorry. What they could do is show how they’re regulating themselves. In other words saying, “Okay, here’s how we are regulating ourselves,” and make it sound believable. In other words, turning a negative into a positive because regulations are considered negatives. Take the negative and you make it a positive by saying, “Here’s how we’re going to regulate our company and our business. And as long as it sounds like it’s viable, people will invest, as long as they know you’ve considered the negatives.
Rob Artigo: Right? Viability and surviving all those questions are keys to making your proposal to investors stick, I think.
So for your listeners, Ray, out there in podcast land who probably have a special platform that they are involved with and that they are regularly listening to, whether it’s at the TTF website or some other podcast source, usually you have the ability to rate the podcast. Please do. Ray appreciates that and it’s a fast growing podcast across Silicon Valley and we like to keep it that way, so keep everyone else informed and let them know how much you enjoy this podcast and that we do occasionally do the video podcasts, which are also quite popular.
So please do check us out at toughthingsfirst.com. You can find links to Ray’s social media toughthingsfirst.com, and also more on the book series, Zen of Zen and the book, Tough Things First. The Zen of Zen series, by the way, with three books, the third one just out is a series of books on entrepreneurship, leadership, management, and also discipline, determination, and really about life, the Zen of Zen Books. Thanks, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob. Good to be with you.
Rob Artigo: Sure.
Mission and strategy are not afterthoughts. Just seconds for your first impression. Minutes to sell the idea. Don’t blow it! In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn explores several key elements your elevator pitch must include or it’s most likely dead on arrival.
Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo, your guest host for this edition of the Tough Things First podcast with Ray Zinn, the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley. Hello again, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hi, Rob. How’s it going today for you?
Rob Artigo: It’s going great.
Ray Zinn: Great.
Rob Artigo: There are a surprising number of people, Ray, who have gone into business, literally invested their own money, drawn from savings, borrowed money, sometimes mortgages on their house, a second mortgage on a house, to launch a business, and they haven’t spent much time at all thinking about defining their company’s mission and concept. So let’s talk about how to define a startup company’s mission and concept before we ever go out and try to get others excited about it. Would you say a mission and concept, they go hand in hand?
Ray Zinn: Okay, so the mission defines the purpose. That’s what the mission is, it’s the purpose of your company. The strategy is how you’re going to execute on that mission.
Ray Zinn Cont.: So they’re different. So the mission defines the purpose, the strategy defines the way, the means in which you’re going to accomplish that mission. So that’s the difference between mission and strategy.
Rob Artigo: And would you say a concept is part of strategy?
Ray Zinn: A concept is really the definition of what you are thinking about doing. It’s not quite the mission. The concept would be the thought behind what you’re doing, like a idea. Well, that’s a good way to put it. So a concept is like an idea. A mission is the purpose. And investors like to know not only the idea or the concept, they like to know what your goal is, what your mission is. What’s the purpose of this company? The strategy is really the key in how you’re going to execute, how you’re going to make that mission a viable one. So if you have an idea, an idea is not a mission, an idea is not a strategy. An idea is a thought or a concept of what it is you are wanting to pursue.
So, a mission is more involved. A mission really is, what’s the purpose of it? What’s the reason you’re doing this, what’s your goal? And you oftentimes heard the investors say, or if you watch Shark Tank, “Well, how do I get my money out?” That’s not an idea or a concept, that’s more to the strategy. How do I get my money out? So, you can say, “Well, the mission is I just want to start a company.” That’s maybe your thought of what a mission is, but that’s not going to help the investor to know, oh, just because you want to start a company, you want to be your boss. That doesn’t solicit a lot of enthusiasm among investors. Your mission may include how you take that idea, that concept, and how you’re going to turn that into a fortune. And then the strategy is how you’re going to go about doing that.
So, you’ve heard them on Shark Tank say, “Okay, but why do you need us? What help can we be other than to give you millions of people, viewers, looking at your product, and that’s why you’re coming on Shark Tank. But why do you need us? What’s our goal? What’s our purpose?” And the same thing, by the way, when you’re soliciting investment, when you go out and visit an investment firm, whether it be like a Shark Tank or someone else, you want to know why do you need them, what’s the reason you want them? If you say, “I just need your money,” that doesn’t sound good. That doesn’t turn investors on. They know that you need money or you wouldn’t be in talking to them. So you don’t need to say, “Why do I want you? Because I want your money.” If you tell them, “Because I need your expertise. I need your ideas on how to float this bigger, or how do I turn this thing into a much bigger opportunity?” And then they’re going to line up, “Why do they have that unique strategy?”
Rob Artigo: Well, I know that we started the podcast talking about mission and concept, and of course you rightly said, “No, we’ve got to talk about the mission and strategy together.” And that the concept is really where it begins because you have to have something that you’re working towards, or that you’re working up to have a product, a service, or whatever it may be. But you mentioned Shark Tank, so let’s go there. It’s rare to have the opportunity to pitch a panel of investors like on Shark Tank. In reality, it’s going to be more like a one-on-one situation, talking to somebody like you, talking to some other potential investor. I suppose concept, mission and strategy, if you’re missing one of those, you might as well just keep your mouth closed.
Ray Zinn: Look, concept or the idea may be incorporated in your mission, it’s not your strategy. We’re talking about your mission. So you want to make whatever that idea or concept you have, that you’re going to incorporate into your mission, has viability. In other words that is believable, and that it has legs. In other words, it has some runway. It’s not just a flash in the pan as you call it sometimes. And then the strategy is, how are you going to make this happen? Are you going to use your money, use other people’s money? Are you going to just fund it from cash flow? How are you going to go about executing your mission?
Rob Artigo: You also mentioned, being that if you are going out and trying to raise money, that it has to be clear. Whichever aspect of this, your concept has to be clear. The mission and the strategy have to be clear. It’s all part of your business plan. It should be something that you can articulate very quickly.
Ray Zinn: Very, very quickly. So that’s what makes it more believable. If it takes a long time to explain why you’re doing, the concept of the idea, if that takes a long time to explain, forget it. It’s like whenever you’re going to make your presentation, you practice it, you can tell watching on Shark Tank that these people, the good ones, really practice their introduction. They make it funny, they make it sound good. They spend a lot of time articulating or planning what their presentation’s going to look like. So part of that presentation has to be easily, easily understood, almost childlike understood. So it’s got to relate to them, you have got to keep their attention. And by the way, if you can’t make that presentation in less than a few minutes, and then if you watch Shark Tank, they only have less than five minutes to present their concept because the rest of the time is discussing the strategy. Your mission should be articulatable within just a matter of a few minutes.
Rob Artigo: And realistically, if you are doing your pitch correctly, the person you’re talking to will know whether it’s viable or not very, very quickly.
Ray Zinn: Oh, I tell you, I’ve even seen when they walked through the door at Shark Tank, they’ve already got their mind made up. Not the presenter, but the Sharks have got their mind made up just looking at the person. They size you up. You have to look the part, in other words, when you walk through that door, they’re already deciding whether they’re going to invest.
Rob Artigo: And we’ve talked about this in other podcasts and the series that you did on essential leadership too is, how you appear. What’s your presentation to them? I suppose you don’t have to pitch your gym or exercise or fitness concept thing in a suit if the show that you’re putting on, or your presentation that you’re putting on, is very fitness oriented or beach oriented or something like that. Perhaps you’re not wearing a suit, but people expect you to look the part.
Ray Zinn: Exactly. If you’re pitching a cooking idea, then you want to be dressed like a cook. Or if you’re going to be presenting a beach idea, you got to look … In other words, when you walk through that door, they got to know who you are before you even open your mouth. And so the fitness guys, wrestling fitness guys, I think they must hire people to help them with their presentation. Like if you were doing a pilot for a video or for a TV series, you just want to look the part. So that’s the concept. Look the part. And I have seen people come in that didn’t look the part and it was very, very hard for them to articulate their idea or their concept.
Rob Artigo: I imagine you are right then and there, you’re thinking, oh gosh, how long do I have to sit here and listen to this without being rude?
Ray Zinn: Exactly.
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Ray Zinn: Yeah.
Rob Artigo: And that doesn’t go anywhere, it doesn’t help your product out. Well Ray, thank you again for another great podcast. For the listeners out there, you can rate this podcast. This is a highly rated podcast for Silicon Valley, a great place to go to continue your education as an investor, young entrepreneur, as a business operator, at all levels of business, large and small. You can get information here that would be useful to you, including as we mentioned, the series, Ray’s series on essential leadership. So toughthingsfirst.com if you want to continue that conversation. Please do also check out Ray’s books, which includes Tough Things First. That’s the flagship book of this podcast and of course the website, and also Zen of Zen one, two, and now three. Get out there and get them. You can get them on Amazon or wherever books are sold. It’s a great series.
I look forward to the next time, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob. It was good to be with you again.
Ray Zinn, the longer serving CEO in Silicon Valley, was well known for fostering a culture of “do whatever it takes, no excuses” at Micrel Semiconductor. In this Tough Things First podcast, Ray talks about why he views an excuse as nothing more than a reason wrapped in a bag of poop.
Rob Artigo: I’m Rob Artigo here once again, your host for this edition of The Tough Things First Podcast. I’m a writer and investigator in California. Here with me is Ray Zinn, the longest serving CEO in Silicon Valley history. Hello, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hello, Rob. It’s so good to be with you again.
Rob Artigo: Well, in your 37 years as CEO of Micrel Semiconductor, you have heard just about everything. Certainly, you’ve heard your share of excuses. I imagine over time working for you, you would hear from individuals fewer and fewer excuses based on your philosophy here. But you once wrote that an excuse is a reason wrapped in a bag of poop.
Ray Zinn: I wrote that musing after one of my kids had offered an excuse on why something couldn’t be done.
Oh, my gosh. I never heard a good excuse. In my entire life, even as a younger person, I never heard a good excuse. They say, “Well, that’s a good excuse.” Well, no such thing. Just like there’s no bad excuse. An excuse is a reason for not doing something wrapped in a bag of poop. And so if you think about all the things that you are trying to explain away, you’ll find out that you’re doing your very best to come up a believable explanation. They say once you begin to deceive, a complex web you begin to weave. So whenever you’re giving an excuse, you’re deceiving. That’s a terrible thing to say. But honestly, an excuse is a deception. You’re deceiving somebody into wanting to believe that your reason for not accomplishing something is logical and reasonable.
And as I said, an excuse is just a reason wrapped in a bag of poop. Offering an excuse, just realize that the recipient on the other end is rolling their eyes, they’re…
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Ray Zinn: They’re shaking their head. They’re not believing you anyway because they know you’re just offering a reason wrapped in a bag of poop. And so avoid excuses like the plague. Don’t give an excuse, just say, “Hey, I’m sorry, I’m going to fix it for you. I’m going to do this, or I’m going to…” Come up with your remedy and not your excuse. Your excuse doesn’t do a thing for anyone. It may make you feel better. You may think you’re fooling the person receiving the excuse, but in the long run of it, you’re not helping yourself or them. So rather than offering an excuse, just offer a solution. An excuse is a problem. A solution is a solution to the problem. So offer a solution, not an excuse.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. The old saying comes to mind, doing the old song and dance. And like you said, people want to hear the results. What kind of questions might I ask myself if I know… Or either I’m put on the spot and I have to answer to something or I’m making a call where I know that I’ve got an excuse in mind. What questions am I asking myself to be able to approach the conversation from not the excuse point of view? Because I don’t want to roll the bag of poop out in front of somebody. I want to roll out the solution. How do I get there? What’s my thought process to come up with the solution to it? That’s obviously viable because sometimes an excuse may be, I didn’t do something or something I did didn’t work out or whatever. You kind of feel like you want to justify your mistake or failure or something. So you might go there.
Ray Zinn: It’s like saying, “Oh, it looks like I owe you one.” As an example. It’s not an excuse, that’s a solution. Looks like I owe you one. Okay. Or I’m so embarrassed, I feel so bad, and so what can I do to make up for that, for what I did or didn’t do? And so that’s how you keep it from smelling like poop is by offering a solution. Okay, I’m going to go do this or I’m going to do that. I’ll go buy some flower… It’s a whole story. If you’re late home, you go buy and pick up a bunch of roses and bring it home. So again, make it smell good. Make whatever the problem is smell good. An excuse does not smell good. So just avoid, if you can, avoid coming up with an excuse because you know it’s not going to be accepted in a sweet way anyway.
Rob Artigo: I would imagine, Ray, that it would be also tempting and telling for the person… Again, usually the person on the other end of the line’s astute enough to figure out when you’re making an excuse that it’s just a bunch of pucky. But if you have a solution that is also trying to just dress up your poop that makes it sound like a solution, the person’s going to know that you’re dancing around it and that you’re not really sincere, that you’re phony.
Ray Zinn: Right. Well, let’s say you’re on your way home and you get involved in an automobile accident, now you’re going to be late. Well you have a cell phone. You can call your wife and say, “We just got into a little fender bender here and so I’m going to be…” Providing you got in a fender bender, of course. If you did, if you’re just using that as a way to get around, of course your wife can walk outside and look at your bent fender.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. Right.
Ray Zinn: But my point is that if you are involved in something that’s unavoidable, at least call and let whoever the party is know that you’re not going to make it on time. It’s not going to smell good, but at least they know quicker than just showing up late. So again, the best thing to do is come up with a solution. And for example, if something’s happening at work, if you got delayed because of some issue at work, it’s a legitimate problem that you had at work, just call whoever it is that you’re supposed to meet or do or take some kids to school or whatever and just say, “So, I’m going to be an hour late, so we have to come up with another solution.” Again, once you begin to deceive, a complex web you begin to weave. So make sure that whatever your solution is matches the problem that you’re facing.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. It sounds like also you’re saying don’t delay and don’t put off that discussion because you leave somebody hanging or leaving them out in the lurch is only going to compound the problem.
Ray Zinn: Yeah. If somebody texts me and say, “I’m going to be another hour,” or, “I can’t meet today,” or whatever, I appreciate that. I mean, it’s going to be a problem for me, but at least I can make my adjustments now and I don’t have to wait and wait and wait and then find out, oh look at this. So again, an excuse is a reason wrapped in a bag of very smelly poop.
Rob Artigo: Every time you say that it makes me laugh because there’s so many other ways you could go and your reputation at Micrel was you had the swear jar, you didn’t use more vulgar language to describe things. But there’s lots of ways to describe that that could go against your policy and be putting money in the tip jar, I mean in the swear jar. But if you respond in a timely fashion, get it out there, you save yourself a hassle. But also I suppose avoid getting your reputation. You probably worked with people that you knew when you got a call from them that they were going to have that bag of poop ready to roll out in front of you. Correct?
Ray Zinn: Yep. Really a quick, a funny story… Not funny, but because it’s kind of sad, is I had this, years to years ago, before I even started my company, I had this gal working for me that kept coming in late every day and I kept telling her, “You’re late.” And she always blamed it on a flat tire and I said, “Next time you’re late, you better come up with another excuse rather than a flat tire.”
Rob Artigo: Yeah. Because it was the same one all the time. Like you said, once you are deceiving, you are weaving that mesh that you’ve got to remember all your lies. And if you run into a situation where you make multiple claims to the same person, you’re outed right away. They’re going to-
Ray Zinn: As Judge Judy says… Let’s see, what is it? You don’t have to have a good memory if you tell the truth. So make sure that whatever solution you come up with is truthful with regard to the situation that you’re having. Truthfulness doesn’t require good memory.
Rob Artigo: Well, you can join the conversation at toughthingsfirst.com. Your questions and comments are always welcome there. You can reach out to Ray, you can actually contact him. He reads his emails. So follow Ray Zinn at Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn and of course pick up Ray’s books, Tough Things First, the Zen of Zinn one and two, and now of course the Zen of Zinn 3 on the market. You can find it at Amazon. You won’t regret picking up those books. Please do. Make sure you start with Tough Things First and then work yourself into daily reflections through the Zen of Zinn series. Thanks again, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thank you, Rob. I appreciate this.
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Leaders of all shapes and sizes can fall victim to one of the great challenges managers face, the danger of trying too hard only to find they’re doing the same thing over and over again.
In this special edition of the Tough Things First Podcast, Essential Leadership Episode two, Ray looks at being realistic and knowing when to change tactics.
Rob Artigo: Welcome to a special edition of the Tough Things First Podcast with Ray’s new series on essential leadership. I’m your guest host, Rob Artigo. I’m a writer and investigator in California. I’m happy to be back, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hey Rob, it’s always good to do these podcasts with you. You’re so energetic and positive.
Rob Artigo: Well, this is a great subject to pick your brain about. Leadership is, as we discussed in the first episode, it’s a very broad topic. And it’s rich for grabbing those little details out of the realm of leadership, and exploring them a little bit so that we can grow and be better leaders. And if we’re just okay leaders, we can be better leaders. Even if we’re great leaders, we can still learn something, because we should be humble enough at least to understand that we don’t know everything. So let’s launch into episode number two of the Tough Things First series on essential leadership. I was reading-
Ray Zinn: Let’s do it.
Rob Artigo: Yes. I was reading your latest book, which is Zen of Zinn 2, which follows Zen of Zinn. And you have all these basically little passages that you can read each day, or a couple times a day if you choose, and get little bits of wisdom about leadership, about life. And I find it very staying across the board. I mean, there’s this thing about daily affirmations. You get to sit there in the morning and read something. But it does give you something to get a frame of mind and focus on something. Particularly if you take something out of a particular reading and go, “You know what? I’m going to try to implement this in my life today.” Zen of Zinn 2. So if you have these thoughts and inspirations. Today’s topic, I think we’ll just say, what it takes to handle setbacks and failures, and yet still succeed.
So great leaders, I know like you, tend to be tenacious. So remind us, in Zen of Zinn 2 you have an expression, or you actually quote the expression. If at first you don’t succeed, try, try again. But you have a caveat to that. What’s that caveat?
Ray Zinn: Well, he who repeats the past fails in the future is another saying that I have. So it’s if you keep doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result, that’s insanity. So don’t keep repeating the same mistake and expecting a different result. You’re going to get the same result over and over and over. So that’s a concept of try, try again, but don’t repeat the same mistake.
Rob Artigo: Do you see that a lot in the business world?
Ray Zinn: Yes. I mean, people are afraid of failure. I mean, that’s one of the biggest fears that we have is the fear of failure. And so in trying to overcome failure, either we go and go into cocoon and just kind of get out of the situation, and are risk averse, or we keep just doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting a different result. And I see that. That’s how companies fail. As we mentioned in series one, episode one, that nine out of 10 startups fail because they just keep repeating the same mistake and expect a different result. So honestly, if something doesn’t work the first time. I say, when you plan, don’t forget, is you plan, then you do a follow up. Check your plan, see if it’s working. Then you revise your plan, and then move forward again. You don’t just stay with the same plan if it’s not working. Because generally speaking, if the plan isn’t working, there’s something wrong.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. I always think of the old military saying as, “No plan ever survives first contact with the enemy.” So you have your plan. Then when you implement it, something’s changed. Right?
Ray Zinn: Exactly. Who moved the cheese? You can’t keep going back. It’s that book, who moved the cheese?
Rob Artigo: Yeah.
Ray Zinn: You can’t keep going back to the same place and expecting to get the same meal. Things move. Things change. You have to be able to pivot. And pivoting is the key to improving one’s leadership or improving one’s skills.
Rob Artigo: Well, you are out there a lot talking to young people, or just young business owners if you want to call anybody under the age of 45 as being somebody who could potentially be coming up to you and pitching you an idea, and maybe be a little bit green behind the ears as a leader of a business. So do you have experiences where people come up to you, and then you give them the advice, “Hey look, it looks like you’ve tried this a lot and you failed, and you are just doing the same thing over and over again”?
Ray Zinn: Yeah. I mean, I was coaching couple of students from Utah Valley University, and they were on the Master’s program. And they had come up with this product idea. And so I said, “Well, now let’s look at what’s working and what’s not working. And so they would make a list up. And I’d say, “Okay, now this is what’s not working. So what’s your plan to make it work, to get that issue resolved?” And they just kept saying, “Well, we’re just going to keep pushing.” And I said, “No. Pushing, unless you’re pushing on the right thing, is not going to get you anywhere.” So I said, “Let’s try something different.” And so they go back and scratch their head. And they come back and said, “We’ve seen other companies do the similar to thing, and it worked for them.” And I said, “Yeah, but it’s not working for you. So don’t just follow that example.”
So I have a story that I tell, which is a young nine year old girl was watching her mother cook a Sunday roast. And her mother cut an inch off each of the roast before she put it in the pan. And the daughter asked her mother, “Why do you do that? Why do you cut an inch off each side?” She says, “Because that’s the way my mother did it.” And so the young girl kind of nodded, “Oh, okay.” And then she happened to be with her grandmother some time later. And she asked her grandmother, “Why do you cut off an inch off each side of the roast?” Her grandmother smiled and said, “That’s because that was the only size pan we had.” And so just because that’s the way it was done in the past, that doesn’t mean that’s the way you need to do it in the future.
Things change. And unless you are willing to move with the cheese, you’re not going to succeed. And don’t keep cutting an inch off each side of the roast just because that was the only size pan you had. You got to come up with another solution. Get a bigger pan, or get a different sized pan or something. But-
Rob Artigo: Yeah. You can continue. Sorry.
Ray Zinn: No, it’s okay. That was my point, was that don’t stay with the same plan just because that’s the way somebody else did it.
Rob Artigo: Well, is there a secret behind … We talked about being tenacious. Leaders are tenacious by nature. If they’re good or great leaders, they’re tenacious by nature. Is there a secret behind being tenacious, while also being aware of what you learn along the way so you don’t repeat the same mistakes over and over again?
Ray Zinn: Yeah. That’s another funny story. We were moving a large bed, a queen sized bed into a room. And I said to my two guys that were helping me. I said, “I don’t think we have to take it apart to move it into the room. I think you can get it in without doing that.” And so they just started moving the bed through the doorway. And I said, “Les, I don’t think it’s going to go in that way.” And they said, “Oh yeah, we can do it. Kind of move a little bit here and a little bit there.” And I said, “No, you can’t go that … That’s not going to fit that way.” And I said, “You can push all you want, and you’re not going to get it through that door.”
And so I said, “[Hert 00:09:40], tell you what. Let’s do it so you do it from an angle. And so let’s put the headboard in first, then move to the right, and then slide it through, and then move to the left again.” And so they tried that, and then that worked. So it goes back to the story about the little girl asking her mother why she cut an inch off each side of the roast. So there’s the right way to do it and there’s the wrong way to do it. And so the right way gets it done. And the wrong way, all you [inaudible 00:10:07] is going to frustrate yourself.
Rob Artigo: Is there a way to learn this process? Am I to make notes about these things, write it down. Or how do I, as a leader, a young leader, make sure that I’m fostering an awareness of how to balance that between trying and trying, versus making sure I don’t try the same thing over and over again, and try to force issue like the bed into the room?
Ray Zinn: Well, when we say, “If at first you don’t succeed, try, try again,” doesn’t mean try the same thing again and again and again. What we’re saying is, “Maybe I should change that.” If at first you don’t succeed, try something different again. But don’t give up. Keep trying something different. Revise your plan. As you said that military saying, you never succeed on the first attack on the enemy. You got to revise your plan. And so that’s the same thing. If at first you don’t succeed, and then usually you don’t on your first shot, then you try something different. That’s how we improve. That’s how things get better. I mean, if you look at the first automobile, I mean the first automobile was kind of a … The Model T Ford was kind of a rickety thing. It had wooden wheels and little spindly tires. And it had a kind of a funny shifting mechanism. And it was open. There was no cover to it. And now compare that to our vehicles today.
So what we did is we just kept trying, trying, trying, trying. And so over the last 100 years we have significantly improved the automobile because we kept trying, but we kept improving as we tried.
Rob Artigo: If memory serves, on a previous podcast you had talked a little bit about the practice that you had at Micrel, which you ran for 38 years in the Silicon Valley. When you asked people for plans or projections, you would say, “I want to know the good and the bad.” And if I recall correctly, you said you emphasized how much you wanted to hear the bad part, because you wanted to be able to make the appropriate preparations for the eventuality that that went sideways on you.
Ray Zinn: So when you develop a plan, you have the pros and the cons. Okay? So the pros are this is why I’m doing it. The cons is why I shouldn’t do it. And so you should have as equal number of cons as you do pros. Because if you just have a list of 10 pros and only one con, that tells me you really haven’t thought through your plan very well. And so you want an equal number of pros and cons. And so the pros we all can get excited about. The cons, we have to add ourselves, “What do we need to do to minimize the impact of those cons?” The cons are going to be there. There is no plan that does not have a downside. And so what we want to do is minimize the downside. You will, you will have downsides. I promise you that. So what you want to do though is minimize the impact of the downside. Not that you can eliminate it, but what you want to do is minimize its impact.
Rob Artigo: It’s a good way to explain over the course of this podcast, episode two, as we discuss essential leadership here on the Tough Things First Podcast, is from Zen of Zinn 2 we pulled this topic. So Zen of Zinn 2 being your latest book. And if you want to find out more about that, of course, pick up that book. Also pick up the book Tough Things First. The moral of the story today on leadership, of course, repeating the same mistake and expecting a different result is insanity. So when you try, try again, learn from your mistakes. Not to repeat them, but make sure that you know if you were … you were just talking about the lists. So you have the pros and cons. You want to be able to track those cons. Go, “Okay. So when something drops through the con hole on one of the subjects, one of the areas where there’s a weakness, if your plan falls through that hole, make sure you’ve covered up that hole for the next time through so that mistake isn’t made again. I mean, that’s how I read what you were saying.
Ray Zinn: That’s a good point. Fill that hole in. Don’t just leave it open so you trip and fall into it. Make sure you cover that hole.
Rob Artigo: Yeah. Because you may forget that it’s there. If enough time goes by, you’ll forget that it’s there. And then all of a sudden it’s a gaping hole again. So as always, you can Ray Zinn with your questions at toughthingsfirst.com. Continue education and the conversation with all of the podcasts, blogs, the links to information about the book, Tough Things First, Ray’s other books, the Zen of Zinn and the Zen of Zinn 2, which is brand new. These are collections of writings on interrelated topics of entrepreneurship, leadership, management, discipline, determination, society, people in life. I mean, it covers just the gamut. Join us next time for episode three in this series, essential leadership. Thanks again, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Oh, you’re welcome, Rob. Good to be with you again.
From doing the right things in the right way, to considering how you dress and represent yourself and your company, the characteristics of essential leadership stand the test of time.
In this special series of podcasts, Ray Zinn provides the finer points for leadership and leadership qualities and how to develop them.
Rob Artigo: Welcome to a special edition of the Tough Things First Podcast as we launch a new series, Essential Leadership. I’m your guest host, Rob Artigo, writer and entrepreneur in California. Hello again, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hi, Rob. So good to be with you again.
Rob Artigo: Well, I really enjoyed listening to your series on Silicon Valley history. It was a hit apparently, because you were asked to do another series. So this time we’re going to focus on leadership. I guess you must be very excited to spend at least maybe, I’m thinking 10 podcasts dedicated to something I know is near and dear to your heart, but also to your success.
Ray Zinn: Absolutely. This is going to be a great series, Rob.
Rob Artigo: So I’d thought we’d start with this broader question of leadership so that we can give kind of an overview. We’ll start with a broader question. And then we’ll end with sort of the final episode, we’ll look back at what we talked about and give another broader overview of leadership. But I thought we would start with talking about an overview of leadership and then we’ll break it down into smaller topics, individual subjects that really matter to making a decent leader better or a good leader great and that sort of thing. We’ll just really focus on that sort of thing. So let’s launch into Episode One. What do you say?
Ray Zinn: That’s good. This is good, better, best, okay? This is what we’re going to be doing.
Rob Artigo: Okay, great. Good, better, best, and that is perfect for how we’re going to start this, because I was thinking there are good leaders and there are bad leaders. There are adequate leaders and there are great leaders. We’ve heard stories. Sometimes we see leaders on TV, some news network, we see the leader on TV one day being interviewed by CNBC. And the next day they crash and burn, because they have some huge failing or something they did horribly wrong. Maybe it’s personal, or maybe it’s professional, or whatever. You may have a good leader who turns out to be bad or you might have an adequate leader who could be great if they changed a little bit. So let’s start looking at, for the new leader or the would-be leader, what should we be setting out as a goal from the beginning?
Ray Zinn: Well, to be a good leader, it starts out, your attitude, what kind of characteristics you’re going to employ as the leader of the group, as you would. So we all have our strengths and our weaknesses. And you want to build on your strengths, but also you want to overcome your weaknesses. So this is what the series is about. This series is to help you become, if you’re already good in a particular area, we’re going to help you become much better. And if you have some weaknesses we’re going to help you develop and overcome those weak areas that are plaguing you as the leader of your organization.
Rob Artigo: When you talk about weaknesses and strengths, are we talking about, what kinds of weaknesses, and what kinds of strengths are the kinds of things that we can expect to accentuate in the process of practicing or learning and absorbing things from the people around us?
Ray Zinn: We often focus on just running the company, just trying to either meet the goals and objectives of our investors, or other customers, or whatever the audience is that we’re trying to appeal to, and we’re forgetting about the fundamentals. There are fundamentals that you have to have to be a good leader. And just focusing on trying to make your investors or your customers happy doesn’t necessarily make you a good leader. And, in fact, most leaders forget about really what it takes to run their organization. Every company has a building or has some edifice and they’re all the same, but what makes the difference is the people that are involved in running the company. And it’s the people that are running the company are the ones you want to focus. You become the coach. You become the one that’s going to be the leader of the band, as you would. And so it’s your quality or characteristics that will make the difference as the kind of coach you’re going to be for your team.
Rob Artigo: Do you ever run into young leaders or maybe even somewhat seasoned leaders in the tech world, the venture cap world, that they’re more interested in presenting themselves as an edgy, creative, great leader when really all they’re doing is presenting themselves that way and they’re not really interested in demonstrating that they are good?
Ray Zinn: Well, that’s what I was just talking about. That’s the thing that I was referring to when I said you got to motivate your people. You got to be a good coach. If you’re the kind of coach out on the sidelines and you’re jumping up and down with all kinds of antics and stuff so the camera’s focused on you, you’re not leading the team. It’s not about you. It’s about the team. And so it’s losing yourself in the team. A good coach is not the one out in front. The good coach is the one that’s with the team. He’s part of the team. And the team knows that they can depend on him. He’s got those characteristics that they can admire and respect.
And so remember, the company is not about you. It’s really about the products, the technology, the kind of image that you want to project for the company. So many leaders, unfortunately, it’s focused on them, like Elon Musk and Tesla. You hear more about Elon than you do about Tesla. And so you got to lose yourself and your ego when it comes to being a good coach.
Rob Artigo: What about those who come before you and they want to pitch you an idea and do their elevator pitch? Do you find people who would rather be perceived as the next Elon Musk in their persona than to present a good idea?
Ray Zinn: Yeah. Unfortunately, you’re correct. I mean, when you go in to buy something, whether it be a car, or some clothing, or wherever it is, you’re not interested in the person that’s selling the product. You’re interested in the product that you’re buying. And the same thing when you’re running a company. Your employees are not interested in you. They’re interested in the product that they’re going to be building, or the service they’re going to be providing. And that’s what you should be focusing on, is really leading out with that, “Okay, we have a great product. We have a great service,” and not, “Hey, I’m a great leader.”
Rob Artigo: So going back to good, better, best as we’ve started this podcast, what are you more likely to run into here in 2021 in the work that you do, whether it’s going to the college campuses or getting out in the business world, what kind of leader are you most likely to run into, the good, the better, or the best?
Ray Zinn: I think probably the good, not that there aren’t wonderful and fantastic leaders. It’s just like anything else, there’s the average. And so most of the ones I run into are more average. And so even when I’m teaching at the various universities and I look over at the students, there’s usually maybe just a few that stand out as good potential leaders of the 30 or 40 that I teach at a time. So that’s roughly 10%. And so it’s the other 80 or 90% that really need help and need to understand some of the qualities and characteristics that they need to employ if they’re going to be a good leader. As we know, 9 out of 10 startups fail within the first three years, because they lack that leadership. And really it’s not the product usually, or the service. It’s usually the leader that results in the company going under.
Rob Artigo: I want to remind the listeners real quick here, we’ve begun a new podcast series and we’re discussing essential leadership here on the Tough Things First Podcast. Of course, Ray Zinn, being a longtime CEO has leadership in the tech world, in the business world that many of us can only hope to have one day. And Ray, I wonder if, we were talking about what levels of leadership you experience or the types of leaders that you run into out in the world are good, better, best and you say, “Yeah, most of them are just okay.” And so I look at what a natural leader is versus a leader who’s just okay and can either learn or just stagnate, right?
Ray Zinn: Yeah. Well, we talk about the natural athlete. Well, they had the certain physical characteristics that just makes them a natural athlete, the genetics and so forth. And it’s the same thing with our personalities. There are some people who are just naturally good leaders, because they have that personality. There’s a personality associated with a good leader. And all of you who have or now work for somebody that you know is a natural leader, it’s because they have the natural characteristics that make a great leader. So in this podcast series, we’re trying to help the listener become… Let’s say you are the best. Let’s say you are a super leader. We’re going to help you even become better, because we’re going to help you focus on those areas that you need to strengthen.
The natural athlete has that ability already genetic-wise to be a great athlete, whatever sport that they’re involved with. And the same thing with a great leader. They have just those natural characteristics that make them a great leader. But not everybody has those natural, as you would, physical characteristics or personal characteristics that make them a fantastic leader. And so this series is going to help you do that. If you will listen carefully to the ideas that we’re going to present, you can become, even if you’re the best that there is, we’re going to help you become even better than the best. So this is the purpose of this series.
Rob Artigo: So how about getting the confidence to pursue leadership roles? If you’re one of those people who maybe you have innate leadership skills, but you don’t have the confidence to assert yourself, is this something that we might be able to cover in this podcast series?
Ray Zinn: Sure. Absolutely. It does take courage to be a great leader. The main focus of this series is those areas, those characteristics that make great leaders. And all of you who are going to listen to this, or who are listening to this series, know people who you think in your mind are great, super leaders. As you mentioned, Rob, I started Micrel in 1978. And I was young. I was in my late 30s. And just like being a father, nobody goes to school to learn how to be a father. It’s OJT, you kind of learn it as you go along. Now, there are people who are naturally just great fathers. And so they don’t need a lot of extra help, because they have those characteristics that just make good dads.
And so as I was starting out in my career in 1960, I didn’t have a mentor, necessarily, anybody leading me, guiding me, walking beside me, as they say. I had to learn OJT. And so I did have, of course, good parents and they did teach me good personal characteristics that helped me, I think, as I started my company in 1978. As I said, I was in my late 30s and here I am starting out, running a company. Now, I ran organizations prior to starting Micrel, but I didn’t actually take over the reins of a company until I started my own in 1978. As I said, I never ran a company before. I ran an organization, but not a company. And so here I am, in my 30s, and now I’m starting to lead this company and so I worked diligently. I studied. I got my master’s degree and just tried to see if I could get the characteristics and the learning necessary to become a great leader. I would say that I’m not necessarily a natural leader, as you would, or like a natural athlete. And so I had to learn.
And I did learn, because I wanted to. I had that desire. It wasn’t all about me. It’s all about how I can help people become better people. In fact, when I hire people at the company, when at the time when I was running it, I said, “I’m not here to make you rich. That’s your job. You’re here to make yourself rich. But what I will promise you I will do, I will help you become a better person, a better husband, a better wife, a better father, mother, a citizen. I’ll help you become a better person. That’s what I’m going to do.” And that was a focus that I had as the leader of Micrel, was to help people become better people. That was my goal. It wasn’t to become rich. It wasn’t to become famous. It wasn’t to turn the world upside. It was really to help people become better people.
Rob Artigo: Well, we’re discussing essential leadership here on this special edition of the Tough Things First Podcast. This is a new series with Ray Zinn. So you can also reach out to Ray with your questions at ToughThingsFirst.com, where you’ll find more on the podcasts. All the podcasts are there, even the past podcasts, logs and links to information about Ray’s books, Tough Things First, the Zen of Zinn and the Zen of Zinn 2. And I think in this podcast, we’ll cover some of those finer points of Zen of Zinn 2 as our leadership topics pop up over the next 10 or so podcasts.
So please go to your favorite podcast source, probably the one you’re listening right now, and give your rating to us and help us spread the word about the Tough Things First Podcast, as well as the books and, of course, the great advice we get every day from, or at least every week, every other week, from Ray Zinn. And if you are following him online or on social media, you can get that information every day. The series is Essential Leadership. It will be going about 10 podcasts. This is Episode One. We’ll have Episode Two coming up. Thanks, Ray. It was a good way to intro this.
Ray Zinn: Well, thanks, Rob. I think it’s a good way to start it. Our goal is to help people become better people and better people become better leaders.
Diversifying, pivoting, or just opening a lot of businesses to see what works, there’s a line between being a conglomerate and an unfocused business manager.
In this edition of the Tough Things First podcast, Ray Zinn defines the differences and how to stay on track.
Rob Artigo: Welcome to this edition of the Tough Things First podcast. I’m your guest host, Rob Artigo. Hi, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Hey, Rob. So good to be with you again today.
Rob Artigo: And it’s good to be back. So you probably heard the saying, and I think this is more about a pasta analogy but, “I’m throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks.” And I figure there are people out there who start small businesses and before it really gets any traction, they’re off to start another business, because they’re not doing enough with that business. And they end up diverting their attention to another business and maybe even a third business. And they’ve got three businesses going at one time. And I think of also the old saying, “Jack of all trades, master of none,” where you end up doing several different things and not really focusing on one. In your mind, and in your experience, is that ill-advised.
Ray Zinn: Well, it depends. For example, if you’re a holding company, you might have many, many business which are totally different. I had a podcast with a fellow just the other day. He’s a holding company. His family, they have about, I don’t know, 300 or so employees. But they have an insurance company, a real estate company, a restaurant and a couple of others. I can’t remember those off the top of my head but… And so, there they are running all these different companies with totally different skill sets required. But yet, they have them, and they refer to themselves as a holding company.
And so, people who are not holding companies but who go from this little project, that little project and as you said, the jack of all trades, master of none. It depends upon what kind of success they’re having with their company. If they’re jumping from one thing to another, it’s usually because they’re not being successful in the operations they started.
Now, there’s companies, like the holding one, that do insurance and restaurants and real estate, but those aren’t companies that pivot. So, if you’re talking about pivoting, let’s say you’re a pet store or a pet grooming center. And because of the COVID virus you can’t have them come into your facility, because it’s not allowed, then you go to their homes. And so, that’s pivoting. That’s going from where the customer comes into your shop versus where you go out to their place. Or if you have a restaurant and you stop indoor dining, and you start using takeout. That’s pivoting. So that means you’re in a similar business, but you’re just changing the structure or the operation of your business. So are we talking about pivoting, or are we talking about a holding company?
Rob Artigo: [inaudible 00:04:12] the more specific here is smaller companies… And I think you mentioned the dog grooming, which is small, but I’m thinking say you start a carpet cleaning business, and you got the equipment for that, or you’re doing some of that stuff. And then you go off and you start something completely unrelated to get some work, and then you’re cutting down trees. I don’t know, that’s not necessarily completely unrelated, because it might be the same kind of home improvement project that you might be involved in. But something unrelated as opposed to related, because I think that if you’re a small business operator, you got your business license, you got your fictitious business name statement, you’ve got the structure of a business set up.
And then, while you’re advertising and doing that, you get bored or distracted, or you feel like it’s going to fail. So, you start something else at the same time that’s unrelated. As opposed to something that’s related where you have something that maybe they’re separate entities, they’re separate companies, but they complement each other, and they actually can work together in certain ways. You know what I mean? If you’re a fencing company and you do fences, and then you also do landscaping, so you could cut down trees and other things. So you’ve got a landscaping business, and you’ve got the fencing company. And you put those things together, and they’re separate entities, but they can work together.
Ray Zinn: Well, I can speak from experience, because before I started Micrel, I started four other businesses. And the reason I did was because, they weren’t working. And they were totally unrelated. When I finally started Micrel, I had to shut down at least two of the other businesses in order to focus on Micrel. So five companies I started before I actually… Well, the fifth being Micrel. But I started four before that that were okay but not doing that well, and I ultimately shut them all down.
Rob Artigo: Any number of those simultaneous?
Ray Zinn: No, no, no. They’re weren’t simultaneous.
Rob Artigo: Okay.
Ray Zinn: They were sequential. I tried this thing, then I tried that thing. Again, when I started on my own, it was in 1976, when my boss my told me I shouldn’t work for anybody else, I should work for myself. That’s what I did. I went home and told my wife. I said, “I’m not going to work for anybody ever again.” So then you say, “Well then, what do I do?” Well, I tried something. I tried this thing, and then that didn’t work, and I tried another thing, and that didn’t work. And so I had one company that I started before Micrel that I could have made a success, but I chose to abandon it, because I didn’t want to defocus my efforts on Micrel, which looked like it was going to do better than the other business.
So I wasn’t trying to do all four or five at the same time. I just sequentially went from one thing to another. As you see you tried this and it didn’t work, you tried that, didn’t work. And so… Well, two of them were successful, but one was more successful than the other. That was Micrel. That’s when I dropped the other business. I was trying to sell it, but it end up I couldn’t sell it for what I could get out of it when I needed to. And so, I just closed it up. But I did do four companies before I started Micrel. So again, they were sequential. They weren’t simultaneous.
Rob Artigo: Well, so going back to my intro, when I was talking about somebody saying that they’re starting a second and third business. I was thinking of situations where they’re trying to run businesses simultaneously. Particularly, if they’re not experts at running businesses, and they’re not a holding company. But like you said, you’re not having the success you want, so you close one and you open another. In this case, we’re talking about those people who decide to diversify so much that their attention is not focused on one project. They’re doing several and not necessarily able to have success at any one of the three.
Ray Zinn: Well, Intel is a classic example. They start of making micro-processors. Then they added a business to make watches, called Microma. This is digital watches back in the early eighties. And then they start a bubble memory business, and they tried several different kinds of businesses all under the name of Intel. In other words, this is Intel Corporation, but they tried several things. They actually started even doing memory. Many companies stay in the same general business, but their product lines they drop… And I can name thousands of companies… I can’t name thousands, but there are thousands of companies, and I could probably name at least a half a dozen, that all of us know that… Like Hewlett Packard. Hewlett Packard started out as an instrumentation company, and it ended up making computers and then making printers and all these different kinds of products. And then they tried to sell off one thing and another and… Same with Intel.
There are a lot of companies that are shedding operations that aren’t as successful, because they either aren’t good at running them, or they took too much of a departure from what their core business is. So we’re always shedding things. It’s like getting a haircut, where our hair gets too long and shaggy, and we get it trimmed. And that’s what people do. People…. But it’s the same company. It’s just that they try to go in to many different directions under the same umbrella and find out that they’re, as you said, a jack of all trades but a master of none, rather than focus on their core capability, their core competency.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, you’re mentioning Intel and also HP, and you have those different product lines that they come up and the efforts they go out to. And I think digital watches is funny at this point, because digital watches were probably very marketable back when Intel decided they wanted to do it. But now you just sort of chuckle because digital watches… People like to have nice timepieces, or they want a smartwatch nowadays. And it was like the buggy whip, digital watches. It cost you probably 75 cents to make a digital watch these days. So then you sell them for a buck 50 and there you go. That’s your profit margin.
Intel is one of those examples where they were able to start and stop, start and… in those where they, I’m sure, lost some money in some situations. But if I’ve got a small business, and I’m trying to do the same thing, I may not have the luxury of being able to throw something at the wall and see what sticks without really putting some effort into the original best chance idea for having some success. And maybe it’s not the fact that I have to diversify and start other businesses. Maybe I have to figure out what’s wrong with the way I’m operating the business that I started in the first place.
Ray Zinn: Well, you’ve got companies like Amazon, where all they were was a distribution company, but now they make their own products. Lab126 is an example of Amazon now building their own products. You’ve got Apple… I mean, holy mackerel, look at the diversification of Apple’s business. I mean, they make everything from soup to nuts. And Google is another one. Even Facebook. They all try to add to their corporate structure in order to continue to grow their business.
So, they acquire companies that they shouldn’t acquire, and then they acquire companies that they really should have acquired. And so, when I ran Micrel, there was a few business that I acquired that didn’t do well. And then there were some that I acquired that did extremely well. I can’t think of a company, whether it be an IBM or a clothing store or whatever, that hasn’t tried to branch out and go into something outside their core competency. Sometimes they’re successful. Sometimes they’re not.
Rob Artigo: Yeah, Amazon is ubiquitous around the area where I live. I mean, you see the vans out all time now, and they’ve got whole distribution channels and they had everything. They’re really a top to bottom, bottom to top, really synchronized company. It’s really interesting.
Ray Zinn: Well, even grocery. They’re going into the grocery business with that food store. I mean, they’re doing everything. Then maybe they’ll go into restaurants. I don’t know what… I mean, these guys branch out into the craziest different directions.
Rob Artigo: As always, you can reach out to Ray Zinn with your question at toughthingsfirst.com. You can continue your education and the conversation with all the podcasts, blogs and links to information about Ray’s books, Tough Things First to The Zen of Zinn, which is a collection of writings on inter-related topics of entrepreneurship, leadership and management. Essentially daily affirmations and thing to look at life. When you wake up in the morning, you can read a little of The Zen of Zinn and get something out of it, and put some things into action as you go throughout the day. Thank you, Ray.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Rob. As usual, good to talk to you.
Insurance is one of the highest cost for business, and alternatives are needed.
Ray Zinn, Silicon Valley’s longest serving CEO, is joined by John Butler, and expert in business insurance and some of the interesting alternatives available today.
Ray Zinn: Well hello everyone, welcome to another wonderful podcast of Tough Things First, we are so delighted to have with us as our guest today John Butler, who is an expert in healthcare insurance, and he’s going to tell us how healthcare, currently insurance sucks. So John, let’s talk about your background, just give our audience a little idea who you are and just what you’re all about.
John Butler: Yeah, thanks Ray. I grew up in Bloomington, Minnesota here, I’m 63 years old. I tell people a little short story about how I started in my working career, I had a job selling pop and popcorn at Met Stadium, which is the old Twins and Vikings stadium, and they eventually tore that thing down to pull in this horrible thing called Mall of America. It was quite a fight way back when, people thought it wasn’t going to be a good thing. But anyway, that’s what I started in my career as 15, 16 years old, just working part-time over at the stadium.
Just went to high school, college, when I came back from college, just the working guy for about seven, eight years, and I got into the financial industry and insurance industry. And fast forward to 1996, I bought my first block of business in the employee benefits area, which included healthcare, or health insurance, of course. And about seven years ago I started researching specifically the healthcare market for businesses, because that’s the big elephant in the room, and found out that there is a lot of things going on across America that are incredible things, and I couldn’t take credit for it, I just happened to discover these people all across the country that are doing things in a different way, thinking outside the box and using the power of technology to bring forward health insurance and health healthcare solutions for businesses large and small.
Ray Zinn: I ran Micrel for 37 years, and I know that my healthcare insurance costs were about half of my benefit costs for my employees, so it was always a big cost, but I never really understood that they were taking advantage of us, and that this is really a problem that most companies, at least that are the size pf our company, which was we had 750 to 1000 employees working for us at any given time, and so this has been a big issue, health insurance, and I know that they’re trying to find ways of improving that and lowering the cost, but why don’t you tell us, what should we be knowing, as a company with 500 or more employees, about the health insurance industry?
John Butler: Well, the first thing is there’s solutions that exist that are really easy to understand. There’s something called coalition plans that are taking a company from 500 to 1000 employees and put them in a group of collective employers around the country that makes the population 10 to 20,000, instead of just 500 to 1000. And everybody understands the law of large numbers, the larger the numbers are, the more you can manage the risk. So employers can join these coalition plans, but not everybody is eligible to join. You don’t want to get into a coalition plan with a dirty pool where everybody’s managing their claims willy nilly.
The real cost drivers within health insurance and healthcare is basically four things, primary care, pharmacy, outpatient surgery, and hospitalizations, and the superheroes around the country are actually controlling those cost drivers, Ray. So the average cost for a business around the country right now, according to SHRM, is $15,000 per employee per year, and growing. And so these consultants and healthcare vendors around the country are bringing that cost down already, and have under 10,000 per employee per year, rather than 15,000. So you can do the math, and whatever size company you are, if you’re going to save about three to 5,000 per employee per year, and give them better healthcare, that’s something that’s worth looking into.
Ray Zinn: You wrote a book recently called How Health Insurance Sucks.
Ray Zinn: Some of the VA people, veterans, they’d tell you that their healthcare sucks. So Health Insurance Sucks. So tell us again, what can we do? What should my listeners do that run companies that are 500 to 1000 employees, what should they be looking for? What can they do?
John Butler: Well, they should be looking for a unique strategy on their RFPs. What I found is even larger companies of 10,000 employees, we got a local company of 10,000 employees, they went to RFP a couple of years ago, and there’s 36,000 brokerage firms around the United States.
Ray Zinn: What’s RFP, what does that stand for?
John Butler: Request for proposal. Sorry, there’s too many acronyms in this business, ERISA and COBRA, and RFP happens to be something that a lot of companies understand, they check their products and services with the marketplace periodically. But when you go out for proposals with your healthcare, you just pick employee benefit brokerage firms that you hope have some solutions for you. So what we’ve done within our practice is we put these people on the RFP that have reduced cost dramatically, not only the cost of the health insurance cost or healthcare costs for the employer, but they also, as soon as they get that healthcare cost under control, they reduce the cost to the employee, so they reduce their premiums and pass that on.
Ray Zinn: How do they do that? How does the company reduce its cost?
John Butler: Well it’s a relatively easy process, you have a way of determining what your per employee per year cost is, which is basically taking your monthly invoice, adding what the employees contribute each month as well, multiply that times 12, and you have the per employee per year cost. If that’s approaching 15,000 per employee per year, and these healthcare experts that I’m connected to average somewhere around 8,500 to 9,000, then you know you have the ability to make an impact. So we connect them to the best of the best around the country, and it doesn’t really matter where you are, these solutions are reducing down the cost of healthcare, those cost drivers can happen very easily by just plugging in these solution partners.
Ray Zinn: You were talking earlier to me about digital healthcare, I want you to explain to my audience what digital healthcare is.
John Butler: Yeah, digital healthcare is a topic, everybody understands how technology has advanced every single other element of the marketplace here. I mean, it’s incredible. But digital healthcare takes the technology tools, like for instance, Edison Healthcare, you can take your health plan design, you can connect right to Edison Healthcare through your program and direct your employees digitally, so if I was on your plan, Ray, and all of a sudden I needed a transplant done, how do I know where to go? Well, Edison Healthcare has a team of people at Mayo Clinic right here in Minnesota that are the best at it in the country. So you can have me flown from wherever to Mayo Clinic, have the procedure done, flown back home, and it’ll be less cost than what you normally would pay in your local community for that transplant.
So digitally, that’s the key thing that is driving everything, and like I said before, in 2019 more money went into digital healthcare than the previous three years combined, and the public just does not know about this, they don’t know how they can connect all these wonderful things together to form a great health plan at an employer’s size.
Ray Zinn: So you’re saying digital healthcare is how the company saves money, because you’re not using the local healthcare centers to perform these various medical procedures, you’re flying them all over the place to get their cost down?
John Butler: Yeah, and that’s just one way of doing it. The other way of connecting to one of the other cost drivers is the pharmacy benefit managers, these are called PBMs. Normally when you work with big insurance companies they connect you to their pharmacy benefit manager, which is there’s a lot of revenue streams that are getting swallowed up and there’s a lot of waste and fraud within that system, Ray. So digital health will connect you to a fiduciary responsible pharmacy benefit manager rather than one of, there’s actually three of them, Ray, that control almost 80% of the United States marketplace right now, and you wouldn’t know if you have one of these big three within your plan unless you want to a consultant and had them analyze your program. But just by switching the pharmacy benefit manager will reduce down the cost of that particular area pharmacy by 40 to 70%, just by making that one little switch of customizing your plan.
Ray Zinn: Is there any hope for companies that are smaller, that have 10, 12, 15 employees?
John Butler: That’s a great question, Ray, I mean there’s different solutions as I see it in the marketplace right now for different size companies. I mentioned Edison Healthcare, you have to be a company of 750 or more just to get it. But the solution that he talked about in the book, I call cafeteria plan, that’s only my terminology, but people understand cafeterias, as far as restaurants, and it works like this. Your boss gives you so much money to go to lunch, you go to the cafeteria and you buy what you want in the marketplace, rather than what your boss is giving you for lunch. And you pick what you want, they may give you so much a month.
So there was a law passed in June of 2019 that went into effect January 1st of 2020 that allows employers to just give tax free money to their employers, and let their employees customize their own plans. So if you think about it in real general basic terms, I might want a plan that is a high deductible, because I never go in. There’s another person that might want a lower deductible, they have kids and they have family members, and they can choose that themselves. My network might be different then your network. All these things can be customized, and all of the vendors, believe it or not, in the marketplace, in this short amount of time, through the help of technology, can connect everybody to their own health plan and get their company, so the company down at that size, get them out of the business of health care.
I tell a little story in the book, or ask a little question, if your boss came to you and said, “We got a great car insurance plan at our company, I’m able to deduct some of it, and everything else, so jump on our car insurance plan.” And then you find out that one or two people had DUIs last year, cracked up their cars, and your premiums went up 30 to 40%. now wouldn’t you come back to your boss and say, “Are you thinking right on this? I mean, I’m fine, and why is my premiums go up because John and Jim had DUIs last year?”
And that’s the way healthcare has run for years, Ray. They’re in the business of healthcare management, or risk management, and down at that size it’s a simple solution to just break them away from this and allow their employees to customize their own plan. It only happens once a year, Ray, it’s not that difficult, with today’s technology, to go onto a screen and say, well here’s the different plans that fits your network, that fits your deductible, click this, click that, sign up, your boss is giving you 500 a month to do it, plug in the right one that fits you. It’s an old economic principle called the invisible hand, I don’t know if you know Adam Smith from way back when, but it’s basically let the marketplace, individually let them choose, and it makes a huge difference.
Ray Zinn: So you’re saying, rather than have one health insurance program for all the employees, is to give them a certain amount of money and let them go out and negotiate their own plan, is that what you’re saying?
John Butler: Yeah, with the help of the vendors that are in the business, and there’s health insurance vendors around the country, some focus on employee sizes of two to 50, others focus on 50 to 500. You can do it at any size now that that law has passed, all the penalties for both employees, or individuals don’t pay any penalties anymore for not having healthcare, they wiped that out. But most companies don’t realize that there are ways to avoid the employer penalties now that passed way back in January 1st of 2020, and so the reins are off, and as far as I’m concerned, Secretariat’s out of the gate.
Ray Zinn: Well I know that you can work with groups of people and share their deductible, and so as a group you can go in and leverage their deductible to get your medical costs down, I know there’s that, there’s that group, I don’t know what it’s called, I forgot the name of it now, but there’s a group that you can go in and basically use their deductible to-
John Butler: Oh yeah. You know actually, Ray, that’s strange that you said that, because this is not talked about very often. In fact, the solutions that are in my book are not offered primarily by brokerage firms because they’d lose the business, or they don’t know about these solutions, it’s a one or the other, or maybe even both. But there’s something called professional employer organizations, which are popular for companies of about 10 to about 150 in size, and this is basically where, it’s called a PEO, a professional employer organization, where if I was a PEO what I’d do is I’d put together a flowering array of benefits, so health, dental, life, disability, 401k, I even managed your payroll for you, and all kinds of things.
So basically I’ve put together a fortune 500 of benefits, and if you wanted to buy into my PEO you’d pay so much per employee per year, and your little company of 20 employees, you can look pretty strong in the marketplace, but that’s basically, I think what you described there, Ray, was you jump onto their plan, what their deductibles are, their choice are, and some PEOs now are allowing you to customize your own healthcare plan, which is kind of amazing too.
Ray Zinn: To wrap this up, John, how can they get your book? Who’s your book targeted to? Is it the CEO level, or the HR level, who should be getting your book?
John Butler: Well, I think it’s targeted to all of the above, but primarily the C-suites, Ray, because they have to make the tough financial decisions. HR doesn’t really like to do an RFP, or request for proposal, it normally takes about four to six months, we offer it in 60 days. But yeah, you can find us at healthinsurance.co to buy the book, or you can email us at info@JB-benefits.com, either way. And it’s on Amazon, you can actually search on Amazon, or Barnes & Noble is probably quicker, just look up books, Health Insurance Sucks, and it’ll pop right up, it’s right there.
Ray Zinn: Well, I appreciate you taking your time today to talk to our audience about health insurance, because as I mentioned earlier in the podcast, that was half of my cost for my employees, benefit cost, was the insurance, this is really good info for our audience. So all of you out there who are C-suites and want to lower your cost of your insurance, medical insurance for your employees, pick John’s book, Health Insurance Sucks, and you can find it at, as he said, at Barnes & Noble, or Amazon, in any number of places. So thanks again, John, I appreciate you taking your time today to give us a little better education on health insurance, because I do know the health costs are not going to come down unless we do something individually to bring them down.
Okay, this ends another great podcast of Tough Things First, we invite you to pick up our book, Tough Things First, Barnes & Noble, or at Amazon, or any of your other book retailers. Also my new book, Zen of Zinn 2, of course there’s Zen of Zinn one out there, you still get Zen of Zinn 2, it’s just a continuation of those wonderful philosophical ideas that we give you every day, and hopefully you’ll join us again at Tough Things First podcast. So again, thank you John for joining us, and I look forward to seeing how well your book does.
John Butler: Thank you, Ray, it’s great meeting you, and it was nice learning about you a little bit online, you got quite a storied career.
Ray Zinn: Thank you.
Machines are made-up of cogs. But if you spend all you time looking a cogs, you have no idea if the machine as a whole is running right.
Ray Zinn educates us on how business leaders should focus.
Guy Smith: Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of the, Tough Things First Podcast. My name is Guy Smith, I’m your host for today. And as always, we are seeking, exploring, digging out the wisdom and experience of Silicon Valley’s longest serving CEO, Mr. Ray Zinn. We’ll just start off by saying hello, Ray. Good to talk to you again.
Ray Zinn: Wow, Guy. Good to hear your voice again. Good to be with you today.
Guy Smith: Always a joy to be with you. One thing which… And the topic today is of keen interest to me, and that’s how a leader, a CEO in particular, needs to view their organization. In the high-tech industry, where both you and I come from, a lot of CEOs come from the technical ranks. They’re used to looking at details, and in that respect they may tend to be looking at the machinery at the cog level, instead of at the overall machine level. I want you to talk for a minute about how in Oregon, how a leader views the organization and how they can simultaneously be worried about the overall machine, as well as paying attention to the necessary cogs.
Ray Zinn: Well, it’s a matter of understanding, as we say, the white stuff and the chicken manure. So, you just have to be able to not get down in the minutia, but be able to step back and look at your company as a machine, as opposed to looking at it as a bunch of gears and bends, and wires and so forth. So, is your machine functioning? In other words, what’s coming in is improved as it goes out. In other words, are you actually getting out really what you’re wanting? And that’s the key, is what kind of machine is it that your company is? Are you a washing machine? Are you a refrigerator, or what is it you’re trying to do? So, that’s the machine that you’re referring to.
Now, you want to pay attention to the cogs, or to the teeth on the gear, because if that tooth is missing, it’s going to grind the machine to a halt. And so, we do want to make sure that all of the teeth of the machine or the gears are in place, and that they’re meshing properly, and they’re doing their proper job. But just looking at the gear, it doesn’t tell you if your machine is still pumping out what it is supposed to be producing. There’s many, many gears in the machine, as you would, and depending upon which gear you’re focused on, it could be running great, but there could be another gear in the chain that’s got broken teeth or out of mesh, and that’s not producing what you expect. Whether that be you want a good human relations department, a good accounting department, a good marketing department, good sales department, production, they all fit together as a part of the machine.
Guy Smith: Well, let’s talk about this in terms of a growing company and what kind of outputs a CEO needs to change their view on. When they start off and they have maybe 10 employees, they can look at every cog in the machine every hour of the day, and know that they have a hands-on. But when they get up to 1000 employees, they don’t have that luxury. So, of course the obvious thing is that you start delegating, but how do you change the outputs that you’re looking at, in order to make sure that all the cogs still have all the teeth?
Ray Zinn: Well, I’m back to what I talked about in the beginning. What is it you’re trying to produce? And so, if what’s coming off down the line is what you’re expecting, and it’s got the quality and the reliability and so forth that you’re trying to produce, then your machine is functioning fine. As long as it’s done in a cost effective way. So, when things start breaking down, that’s when you have to step back and say, okay. Where is this machine failing? In other words, what part of it is grinding to a halt? I was talking to my son the other day, who has changed jobs, he now works for another company, and he said, “Dad. The difference between the two companies, the one I previously worked for and the company I work for now is, they get things done quick. I mean, it doesn’t take two or three weeks to make a decision. They make decisions within hours.”
And I thought that was interesting, that he enjoyed that. He enjoyed working for a company that made decisions quickly, as opposed to having to go through endless meetings, and endless repeating of the same story to get something done. It’s almost like they’re afraid to make a decision. I was talking to another cohort of mine, another associate, just yesterday, and he was talking about working with the Japanese. He says they just take forever to make a decision. And I thought, wow, that’s interesting.
And I started thinking about that, and I said, “Well, I think the different is, is that the Japanese, when they make a commitment, they stand behind it 100%.” And so, when they make a commitment, they absolutely want to make sure it’s the right one. Whereas maybe in the US, we make a commitment, but it only lasts five minutes. So, we can make decisions quicker because we’re not going to stand behind them as long. So, as they say, look before you leap and he who hesitates has lost. So, it depends again, what is the best for your particular business? And so, we don’t want to judge everybody by the same metric.
Guy Smith: And you made an excellent point in your book, Tough Things First, and for anyone in the audience who has not read Tough Things First, that really needs to be what you do the moment you finish listening to this podcast. It is arguably the top shelf business book for reading. But in your book, you discuss the trade-off between the timeliness of the decision and the quality of the decision, and you cited a former military chief of staff, Colin Powell, who at one time, and I’ll probably get the number wrong, but he said something along the lines of, you study a problem until you have 60% of all the information that you need to make a perfect decision. And then you go with your gut. You let your intuition guide the rest of the process. And to him, that was the right way to make a high quality decision, but not suffer analysis paralysis and never get around to actually making a decision.
Ray Zinn: Yeah. I mentioned the culture difference between the Japanese and Americans. Americans, they don’t stand behind their commitments to the degree the Japanese do. So, the Japanese will just take longer to come to a decision, and that’s just the culture of that country. Whereas in the US, we make decisions quicker, but we don’t stand behind them as long. So, we change governments, or we change politicians like we change our shorts. So, there in Japan, they don’t. They stay with something for a longer period of time. So, each culture is different. You have to work within each culture, and operate within the culture of that particular industry, or company, or country.
So, you’ve got to be flexible and say, blessed are the flexible for they shall not get bent out of shape. Flexibility is also a key part of running a good machine. If you design some tolerances so tight, that there’s no flexibility, then when something does get out of the line, it shuts the thing down. Whereas if you build a machine so it has some flexibility in it, so that if there’s a little bit of a mismatching, as you would, the thing still keeps producing. That may be the best way or course for your particular company.
Guy Smith: All right. Now, in Silicon valley where you and I have spent pretty much our entire careers, we have businesses that go from almost nobody, two guys in a garage, to being thousands of employees. What one bit of wisdom would you give somebody who is sitting atop of a rapidly growing business, in terms of how to keep their proper focus on the machine? What’s the one big thing that they’re probably going to mess up on and how do they avoid messing up?
Ray Zinn: Well, the title of my book, learn to do the Tough Things First. I don’t care whether you’re running a one-pot organization, or tens of thousands of people. If you learn to do tough things first, you will most likely succeed, whether you’re a small business or a large business. Doing the tough things first is learning to love the things you hate. In other words, get used to doing things you don’t like doing, and then do them well. That’s discipline. And so, the one single thing that I think that would help you, whether you’re just a one person operation or tens of thousands of people is, learn to do the tough things first. That filters down through your entire operation, is how well you deal with the difficult tasks. Because the outcome of that, if you don’t do that, is procrastination. And so, we all know what procrastination is, one of the worst words in the dictionary, because you’re putting off tomorrow what you should have done instantly today.
Guy Smith: I absolutely believe in that, because there’s nothing worse in the world than having something hanging over your head until tomorrow. And my routine is that I, like any human being, have an occasional propensity to procrastinate, and I just say, “Guy, don’t be lazy. Get it done, get it out of the way.” And boy, it frees up a lot of time, and takes a lot of things off of your mind. And if you’ve got 500 employees and you’ve got a tough thing that needs to be moved out of the way, you’re not only cleaning your own house, you’re cleaning the house for all of your employees as well.
Ray Zinn: Yep. Get those tough things out of the way, learn to love the things you hate. That’s the key.
Guy Smith: That is. Well, thanks again, Ray, as always informative. And again, for the audience, if you have not bought a copy and read a copy of Tough Things First, mandatory reading. Especially all you [inaudible 00:12:03] out in the Silicon Valley in the startup world. This is your Bible for going forward and being a success in business. And Ray has two other books out there. A Zen of Zinn, will spell that. It’s Z-E-N of Z-I-N-N, A Zen of Zinn, and Zen of Zinn two, little golden nuggets, short little sound bites of wisdom, intelligence, insight, and perspective about humanity, leadership, honesty, relationships, management, and this weird thing that we call life. So, by all means, grab those books, put them on your nightstand, or better yet, put it on your desk in the office, read a couple of pages before you get started on your day, and it’s going to give you that inspirational lift as well as some really, really good smarts about running a business.
Ray Zinn: And here’s my guarantee. If you pick up and read those books, I promise you, if you put even a fraction of them into action, you’ll be a much better person. This book will be invaluable to you in your life. If you even just put a fraction of those ideas into motion, you’ll become a much better person. That’s my promise. That’s my guarantee, and I’m going to stand behind that.
Guy Smith: And I will attest to that because I’ve read both of those books, and I can guarantee you that I walked away with some new insight, and new inspiration, that I did not have before. And it just made going forward in life a little bit better.
Ray Zinn: I talked to a person just the other day that said that after reading my book, Zen of Zinn, of course Zen of Zinn two just came out. But after reading Zen of Zinn, she said that she lost her mother recently, and had some difficulties with her siblings over the property, the disposition of the estate. And she says, because she had read Zen of Zinn, she said it made all the difference in the world in how she was able to migrate through losing her mom and dealing with her siblings on disposing of the assets. So, she said she just called to thank me, or actually she emailed me, to thank me for the book. And so, that was a testimony, I really appreciated hearing that.
Guy Smith: There you go listeners. There cannot be a better endorsement than that. So, until a couple of weeks from now, when the next episode of the Tough Things First Podcast comes up, we’ll bid you all a good day and thank you for listening.
Ray Zinn: Thanks, Guy.
Every CEO needs to heed their stakeholders. But can any CEO possibly have a company represent the values of every stakeholder.
Ray Zinn, Silicon Valley’s longest serving CEO, draws lines between being woke and being overreaching.
Guy Smith: Hello, and welcome again to another episode of The Tough Things First podcast. I’m your host today, Guy Smith, and I’m really excited about this topic. It’s one that’s been rummaging around in my head for the last few weeks, and I think it’s one that’s both touchy, but important for anyone who’s in a leadership role in a company, especially for the Chief Executive Officers. So as always, we’re going to be extracting the wisdom of Silicon Valley’s longest serving CEO, Mr. Ray Zinn, and getting his perspective on what I call woke capitalism, this belief that business leaders need to either adapt, conform to, or take a stand on everything political in the world. So, hello, Ray. Good to talk to you again as always.
Ray Zinn: Well, hello, Guy. Yes, I know this is not one of those podcasts that I don’t think I’m going to enjoy, but I’m sure you are because it’s like, when did you stop beating your wife podcast. So, let’s go ahead.
Guy Smith: I appreciate you taking a tough subject like this. It’s one that you feel like you’re dancing on landmines. You’re almost timid to take one direction or another, but let’s unwind. One of my thoughts about woke capitalism or conscious capitalism, whatever you want to call it, is that this is nothing new, that business leaders doing the right thing has been around as long as capitalism has been. I have done a little bit of reading about George Westinghouse. Back in the days when people were still working seven days a week, he was the first guy to collapse a work week down to five and a half days, which back then was unheard of. But boy, he just was considered a God in his community. His workers thought he was generous and beneficent. They made Westinghouse a household name. So give me your perspective on the relationship of business and society and community in terms of just being aware of a company’s role in all of that.
Ray Zinn: Micrel, the company that I ran for 37 years, our culture was honesty, integrity, and dignity of every individual. There was respect for everyone, regardless of race, color, creed, or position. And the last was doing whatever it takes, no excuses. In other words, don’t become a victim. In other words, you’ve got to take control of your project and get it done and not make the company pay for your mistakes as you would. Those are the four cultures that we had, honesty, integrity, dignity, and respect, and doing whatever it takes. So Guy, let me ask you a question. In the cancel culture narrative, should we cancel that?
Guy Smith: Yeah, now that’s an interesting question. I think cancel culture has in a way expressed itself as a form of intolerance. And I think respect and tolerance is part of the creed. You may disagree with somebody, but you don’t eliminate them from society for having a different opinion.
Ray Zinn: Well again, I thought that was interesting that for 37 years that while I ran my company, Micrel, I had those four cultures, honesty, integrity, dignity, and respect for everyone, irrespective, and then doing whatever it takes. I mean, those were the culture that really gave my company an edge over my competitors. We had the lowest turnover of any company in our industry and the highest boomerang rate, employees returning back to the company once they left, and just the highest morale. It was almost unheard of here in Silicon Valley. So to think about canceling that culture, it doesn’t make any sense. So depends upon the kind of culture that you have and want for your company. This wokeness is just a over used form of you can’t have any form of differentiation, or you’d be considered racist.
And as I said, to me, and like Westinghouse, I mean for 37 years, we had every kind of culture you could think of at our company. I mean, we were probably the most multicultural company in the world. I don’t know of a single race or culture that we didn’t have at Micrel. And we all got along and we respected each other. As I said, we didn’t allow any condescending language, no swearing. You couldn’t chew somebody out. You had to treat everybody with dignity and respect. And yet, we still had a differentiation. We still had a men and a women’s restroom. We didn’t combine the restrooms. We kept them separate because we thought that was the safer thing to do. We had certain rooms and doors that people couldn’t go into because they were secured. So we did have employees only, or people in this department only.
So, there were some, as you would, discrimination, in a sense of the word, that not everybody could go everywhere they wanted, anywhere they wanted. If you wanted to go into the waver fab facility, you had to put on a bunch of garb. You had to put on a gown and facial coverings, and you had to have your body blown off with air and cleaned. I mean, you just couldn’t walk into the building. There were certain preparation you had to go through. So, there is some discrimination, depending upon the kind of facility that you run and the kind of businesses you’re in. You just can’t have it open so that anybody at any time can do anything they wanted.
So even with our great culture, we did have places that certain people couldn’t go, just because there was some control and some restriction that required you to be prepared if you want to enter a certain area. And that’s just the way we are, but to some, that’s called discrimination. And it is, but it’s not a bad discrimination. It’s a practical discrimination.
Guy Smith: It’s a functional operational discrimination, as opposed to a societal, cultural, racial discrimination.
Ray Zinn: Exactly. But it’s still, they want to eliminate any of that. And you can’t do that. And in our company, even though some companies are exactly opposite, you dressed up nice when you came to work. You’re expected to, at least a nice pair of slacks and shoes or pants and shirt. And if you’re a leader, you wore a suit and tie. At other companies, that’s no, no, no. You can come however you want. You can come in your bathing suit. But we had some restrictions. You had to be dressed for the occasion. Some people liked it, some people didn’t like it. Well, if you don’t like it, then don’t come, don’t join us. So that’s the kind of discrimination that you have to have. Discrimination is not bad if it’s not aimed at putting somebody down, pushing them down, as you would.
Guy Smith: Right. And to tie two loose threads together here, people talk about woke-ism, which is all about being aware. And one of the pillars of your corporate culture was respect for everybody, every individual. And to my mind, that is one of the most fundamental bits of being woke that you can have. If you’re not willing to treat other people with dignity and respect, then you’re just not aware of a basic element of humanity, and you’ve got to expect that to become poisonous inside of a work environment. For the audience, Ray hinted at this just a second ago, swearing was not allowed at Micrel. I encourage you to buy Ray’s book, Tough Things First, because there is a gut busting little story in there about an executive who had a foul mouth, but he had to pay a dollar every time he let loose with a swear word, and I won’t blow the punchline of the story. I want you to buy the book and read this. But just imagine an executive reaching in his pocket and pulling out a wad of $1 bills because of a chain reaction of things that happen.
Let’s talk about the way corporations fit into society. One of the things that some in the woke-ism part of the culture are saying is that CEOs need to take a stand on just about everything. I think one of the more intriguing things I ever saw was when Bank of America decided that they wanted to take a stand on gun control. I don’t care what people’s opinions about gun control are, but that was so disconnected from what Bank of America does and what their employees face as part of a work environment, that it seemed like a woke-ism meltdown. It was a unnecessary and just unviable thing to take a stand on. What’s your position, or what are your thoughts about CEOs and what they need to publicly express or not express on behalf of their company and their shareholders?
Ray Zinn: Well, I stay out of that. I try not to become political. Again, we had the basic principles of honesty, integrity, respect for every individual and doing whatever it takes. That’s the culture of the company, and it’s not political. So I did not take political stands. I didn’t say, “Oh, well, if you don’t believe in gun control, then you can’t work for the company,” or, “If you don’t believe in abortion, you can’t work for the company,” or, “If you don’t believe in paying off student loans or the government pays student loans, you can’t work for the company,” or, “If you the have some other view that’s different than somebody else, you can’t work for a company.”
In Silicon Valley, of course, it’s a more progressive area. So we had a lot of people who had a totally different political view than I did, but that didn’t stop them from enjoying good employment and good opportunity and growth at the company. I just left politics out of running the company. I’m not required as the CEO with my shareholders to take a particular stand on the green environment. We’ll comply with all the laws and regulations with regard to green, but we didn’t make a big deal of it. We didn’t come out and make a political statement. Again, we just ran with the basic tenets of treating humanity correctly, and let politics stay out of the company. Literally there were no politics within the company, zero.
Guy Smith: Well, let me get your thoughts on one thing. I’ve been making this argument recently that in terms of speaking on behalf of shareholders, a CEO can definitely publicly talk about things that affect the company, even if they’re political, because one of the duties a CEO has is to look out for the shareholders. So if it impacts your business, it’s quite proper for a CEO to stand up in a public forum and say, “This is what we believe about this little piece of politics.” Is it not impossible for a CEO to express a position on a political issue that doesn’t impact the company? Because I’ve got to imagine that the shareholders are just as varied as all the employees, and a CEO who’s taking a public position is speaking against the beliefs of a lot of their shareholders, regardless of which side of the line that he falls on.
Ray Zinn: Well, Guy, I write a lot of musings, as you know. You’ll often write back and say, “Ray, you don’t want to say it that way, because you don’t want to offend your readership.” And that’s the same thing as a CEO, you don’t want to offend your shareholders. So unless there’s some political or some government regulation that’s impacting a company, I stay out of it, and I would recommend it to CEOs to stay out of it. There’s no need of you putting out white papers or pounding your fist and acting like God almighty, unless it affects your company, unless it affects the operation of your business. So, it’s really untenable for a CEO to come out and make a political statement that’s his own personal belief that has nothing to do with the operation of the company.
Guy Smith: I think there’s so many dangers in doing so in terms of offending shareholders, offending suppliers, offending customers, that it’s more risk than reward.
Ray Zinn: Years ago, I had one of our vendors come into the building and wanted to speak with me. So I invited him up to talk to him. He says, “I service almost 100 companies within the Bay Area. I call on lots of companies.” But he says, “There’s something different about your company.” He says, “When I come here, I have a different feeling. It feels different when I walk in the door of your company.” He said, “Can you tell me what that is?” And I said, “It is because we love each other. We respect each other. There’s not that hostile feeling. There’s no hostility within the company, either intra or extra departmental. We all treat each other with honor and respect.” And he said, “You guys have always paid your bills. You’ve always been fair.”
He says, “I don’t have any problems and I just wanted to know how you do that. How can you be so different in a area which is not as friendly as your company is?” And I said, “Well, that’s just the way we treat each other. That’s the way the company is run. I mean, we are different. There’s no question about it. We are different.”
Guy Smith: To circle back to something that you said earlier, Micrel had the lowest employee turnover rate and the highest rate of boomerang employees, employees who left and then came back. Anyone who’s listening to this podcast and running a business knows how hard it is to find good people, knows how expensive it is to bring them on board. So these cultural pillars that you had at Micrel were not only good from a humanitarian standpoint, but from a business standpoint, in terms of having a stable, reliable, happy, intelligent workforce and lowering all of those recruitment and onboarding expenses is just plain good operational sense.
Ray Zinn: Exactly.
Guy Smith: Well, thank you again, Ray. Thank you for your insights about woke-ism and what it really means to a company instead of the current misinterpretation, I will say, about what it should be. And for the audience, I mentioned Ray’s primo book, Tough Things First, same as this podcast. It should be on your required reading list. I’ve read a bunch of business books. This is absolutely the top of the heap, required reading in at least a couple of universities that I know of. Ray has two other books out, Zen of Zinn. I’ll spell that. It’s Z-E-N of Z-I-N-N. And Zen of Zinn 2. Nice little golden nuggets of wisdom, something that’s designed on purpose to be short little fast reads to give you some inspiration and insight and wisdom during your day, and put the book aside and repeat the process tomorrow with the next page. Very approachable in terms of understanding the interaction of business management, leadership, humanity, and life as we know it, as well as all other relationships.
So thanks again, Ray. I appreciate it. And for the audience, make sure you hit that like button and subscribe to the Tough Things First podcast. And by all means, tell everyone you know about it.
Ray Zinn: Go dig for gold and read my two books, Zen of Zinn and Zen of Zinn 2.