Employing Differences: Recent Episodes
Karen Gimnig & Paul Tevis
A conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals, hosted by Karen Gimnig and Paul Tevis.
"Awesome things end to make room for more awesome things. If we just continue to try to hold on to things that have been great, even when they're still going great, eventually everything has a natural lifecycle and time span to it."
Karen & Paul talk about the complexities of ending long-term collaborative projects, using their decision to conclude their podcast, 'Employing Differences,' as a case study. They explore topics such as broaching the subject of ending, processing emotions, and affirming the value of the relationship. The episode is a reflection on their collaborative journey, the appreciations they have for each other, and lessons learned about handling endings with vulnerability and respect.
"The greater the skillset of the participants, the less skill the facilitator needs and the greater the skill of the facilitator."
Karen & Paul discuss how a meeting participant can help a facilitator during a meeting without undermining their authority.
"If you're the sort of person who naturally dominates conversation, step back. If you're the sort of person who naturally doesn't say anything, step in. And to add some nuance to that, really to think about and to listen for what are things that are being said in the group that's relevant, germane to the topic at hand."
Karen & Paul talk about how to be an effective meeting participant, focusing on when to speak up and when to hold back. They emphasize the importance of balancing natural tendencies—whether one is inclined to dominate discussions or remain silent. Key points include the value of bringing new, relevant information to the group and recognizing the group's capacity to hear contributions. The episode highlights discernment in communication, stressing concise and timely participation.
"And starting with preparation, which very often we don't think about preparing for a meeting, especially if we're not facilitating. But it's very useful to gather what information you can. If there is an agenda, review it. If there's information that's been sent out, you know, decide how much of it it's useful for you to read and get familiar with."
Karen & Paul share effective ways to prepare for a meeting as a participant. They explore the importance of understanding the meeting's purpose, gathering necessary information, managing interpersonal dynamics, and honestly assessing the necessity of your attendance.
"Part of being a good advisor is trusting the other person to be an expert in their context, in their life, in the things that they're doing and to listen to them when they say things around that."
Karen & Paul discuss how to effectively provide advice in a collaborative space, particularly for consultants or advisors who must respect their clients’ autonomy while offering their expertise. They explore the challenges of finding a middle ground between being overly directive and completely hands-off, emphasizing the importance of mutual respect and understanding.
"Sometimes what happens is somebody's organizing in a meeting on behalf of others with great intentions, but the others, like the people who are in the conflict, who need to work it out actually are not very interested in doing any work on it."
Karen & Paul share how to identify and address meetings that are inherently impossible to facilitate successfully. They share insights on recognizing unrealistic expectations, the importance of preparatory work, and the need for honest communication about capabilities and constraints.
" If we're gonna ask, it needs to have something, we need to know what we're gonna do with it. Because when people know that they're supposed to ask for feedback about stuff, but they actually have no plan to incorporate any of the ideas that they get. That contributes to, you know, just this feeling of like, well, this is a checkbox, like this is a performative ask."
Karen & Paul talk about how to handle feedback effectively, emphasizing the importance of having a plan for it. They stress that feedback should be solicited only if there's a genuine intention to use the information. They explore the negative impact of performative feedback requests and the importance of closing the feedback loop, either by implementing suggestions or by explaining why certain feedback won't be acted upon, to maintain trust and credibility.
" Give yourself permission to choose the one that serves you best. And if you're in a community space or a teamwork space or a job kind of space, that doesn't just mean you can do the thing that's entirely selfish, but you can selfishly do the thing that gives me the community that I want."
Karen & Paul share the concept of intentional choice and its importance in relationships and community spaces. They explore how this skill contrasts with reactivity and habitual behaviors, emphasizing the need to consider future outcomes and act in ways congruent with personal values and the needs of others.
" What is vulnerable for one person to do in one situation, in one environment is not the same for everybody else and for anyone else in that situation that there are a lot of external factors that play into it as well."
Karen & Paul talks about the concept of calibrating vulnerability in collaborative and relational environments. They explore how balancing vulnerability with safety can enhance connections and the effectiveness of teams. Drawing from the works of Brene Brown and Dr. Amy Edmondson, they emphasize the importance of finding the right level of vulnerability to foster trust and collaboration while avoiding extremes of either excessive safety or vulnerability.
"The idea is that what we know and what we think is what matters, and that ignores the fact that what we think and what we're able to access of what we know are decidedly influenced by what we feel. So the introspection is kind of trying to get all of those pieces together."
Karen & Paul discuss the concept of introspection skills and their importance in collaborative relationships. They define introspection as turning curiosity inward to understand one’s own emotions, needs, and logical reasoning. Emphasizing emotional literacy, they highlight the significance of precisely naming emotions to better understand their influence on thoughts and actions.
"Curiosity is about knowing what questions to ask, so that we can then listen deeply for the answer. And for me, curiosity is very much about asking genuine questions, and that is to say questions that we don't know the answer to. These are non rhetorical. These are things where we actually don't know the answer and we want to know the answer. Like there's a sense of wonder or sometimes fascination."
Karen & Paul discuss the importance of curiosity as a skill in collaborative relationships. They explain how curiosity involves asking genuine questions to understand others better, contrasting it with judgment and certainty.
"This is where I am. This is what I'm thinking. This is what I've experienced. This is the impact that it had on me, where my brain went when you said that thing, or whatever it is. But it leaves the door open for them to have a different experience, and a different understanding. So yes, they need to know that you're really mad about that thing they did, but they don't need to get the impression that you think they're a horrible person because of it."
Karen & Paul explore the importance of speaking skills in collaborative environments, emphasizing the need for thoughtful communication, considering the impact on the listener, and preparing for challenging conversations. They discuss the balance between expressing thoughts, feelings, and needs while making room for dialogue and understanding.
"Listening is a relational skill. It's not just about I know what you know, so now we can make better decisions. It creates connection to feel heard. It creates trust and safety to know that I actually have heard what you have to say. It has that relational impact in addition to the informational part."
Karen & Paul share the importance of listening skills in building effective relationships. They introduce the technique of mirroring, inspired by Imago Relationship Theory, as a key method for improving listening. This involves repeating back what the other person says to ensure understanding and asking follow-up questions like 'Did I get you?' and 'Is there more?'
"One of our criteria was, it has to be a skill that is an individual. This is how I relate to people. This is how I engage with people. This is perhaps how I engage with conflict, that kind of space."
Karen & Paul discuss the importance of identifying and developing relational skills that individuals can use to improve interactions and prevent conflicts. They outline six key skill areas: listening, speaking, curiosity, introspection, calibrating vulnerability, and intentional choice. The episode serves as an introduction to a series where each of these skills will be explored in detail to help individuals practice and enhance their relational capabilities.
"In some ways, you don't want people to feel good after the skill building. You want them to feel capable. You still want them to be unhappy about the situation, but know that they now have a thing that they can do. Because you want them to still be motivated to do it."
Karen & Paul share strategies for intervening in organizational crises, focusing on whether to address the immediate problem or to build the necessary skills for better collaboration.
" The learning space is best served when while there is a problem, it's not a giant problem. There may be a flame, but the whole house isn't on fire yet. And that is the ideal learning space because once the house is on fire, your brain is not set up to learn, and it is a capacity issue. "
Karen & Paul discuss the factors that motivate individuals in groups to engage in learning interpersonal and collaboration skills. They explore the importance of having relevant problems to apply new skills to and the balance between being motivated by issues and not being overwhelmed by crises.
"It's not actually about how the other person feels, how the other person reacts to what it is that we say to them. What we're really worried about is how we are going to react to their reaction."
Karen & Paul discuss how to handle difficult conversations by focusing on one's reaction to the other person's emotional response.
"Just because I am a hundred percent willing to hand it off and a hundred percent confident in their ability to make it, doesn't mean that it's something they're willing to do."
Karen & Paul share the complexities of delegating decisions in collaborative environments. They explore the dual aspect of the question 'Can you decide?'—considering both the capacity and willingness of the person being asked. Key topics include the importance of setting clear parameters, anticipating possible outcomes, and managing the impact of potentially suboptimal decisions on relationships. They emphasize the need for trust, competence, and effective repair strategies when things go wrong.
Resources & Links:
- Emily Webber’s essay on “Hat, Haircut, or Tattoo”: https://emilywebber.co.uk/decision-making-at-the-right-level-with-hats-haircuts-and-tattoos/
" If we're not clear about what we are doing in exerting that control, why we are doing it, how long that will last. We can amplify that stress response, that threat response in all of the people around us. So it's not just that we have less collaboration, but we're probably freaking other people out."
Karen & Paul talk about assessing the appropriate level of control to exert in organizational crises. They explore the tendencies of leaders to increase control when faced with unexpected problems and emphasize the importance of evaluating whether such control is useful or counterproductive.
"If you can get somebody who will listen with you, read with you, talk with you, explore with you along these same kinds of things, your odds go up dramatically for actually making a difference in your organization."
Karen & Paul talk about the benefits of having a 'learning buddy' when working on relational skills and collaborative practices. They highlight that while learning alone can provide some insights, collaborating with a small group can significantly enhance the learning process through shared reflection, feedback, and combined efforts.
" Sometimes what we think is gonna be a small change or isn't really gonna inconvenience somebody else turns out to be bigger because we just don't know what all is going on with our collaborators and our colleagues."
Karen & Paul talk about managing unexpected changes in collaborative projects. They explore the cognitive and emotional impacts of altered plans, emphasizing the importance of self-grace and understanding others' responses.
"You land in a place that's more challenging than you expected, you don't have the sense of belonging that you normally would think you'd have in that kind of environment. And I just wanna say, if we don't have a strong sense of connection in a group, we do feel threatened."
Karen & Paul discuss the cognitive and emotional costs of differences in collaborative spaces. Through Paul's experience in an improv workshop where he felt like an outsider due to age and familiarity gaps, they explore how such differences require extra effort and awareness.
"So none of us liked the fact that we were in that situation, but the fact that we could then choose which of these various options works the best for my situation, what's the least bad thing for me? I now had that choice."
Karen & Paul share how to effectively present the least bad option to a group, focusing on the importance of context, choice, and connection.
"The sooner they know, the better they can deal with it, and if they're hearing from me that it's not gonna happen. That has a totally different feel than if we wait until they figure out on their own that it's not gonna happen and then are coming back to me for it."
Karen & Paul discuss the importance of timely communication when project deadlines change. They emphasize why it's crucial to inform stakeholders as soon as it’s clear the original timeline won't be met. The conversation explores common reasons people avoid delivering bad news, such as fear of disappointment or repercussions.
" I don't want to jump to assumptions and conclusions here about this. So let me understand, do you need this by a particular time? What would the impact of it, it being here by that or not? You need to do it in a way that the other person feels like the conversation is moving forward."
Karen & Paul explore the complexities of asking for timelines in personal and professional settings.
"And if what's in my head and what's coming out of my mouth don't match, we're gonna have all kinds of trouble in the space between."
Karen & Paul talk about the dilemma of being open versus decisive in collaborative settings.
"One of the things that happens oftentimes when people want to move on is, you know, they try to just plaster over all of that with positivity. And that sort of dismissal of the feeling doesn't help people to move through."
Karen & Paul discuss how groups can navigate the emotional aftermath of difficult decisions, such as layoffs, while transitioning towards future goals.
" You do not want to be attached to your plan. You really want a mindset of, oh, so this is the thing we're gonna have to change today. That to expect the unexpected that we know it's coming. It's very unlikely that nothing's gonna go wrong that day, and it doesn't mean it's terrible."
Karen & Paul discuss the importance of anticipating and planning for potential issues in collaborative projects and events.
" While there's a group of us that's coordinating and making things happen, we're not the ultimate decision makers for certain parts of this. And it's not clear where the decision came from. And so I just found myself going like who made this decision."
Karen & Paul talk about the importance of identifying who made decisions in collaborative settings.
"When it feels like you are the one who's always doing the work and the other person isn't helping you to feel heard, that can really lead to a place of resentment. Not necessarily because they intend it, it's just what happens."
Karen & Paul explore how to feel heard in conversations, especially when the effort seems one-sided.
***" What most of us kind of grew up with is this assumption that if I'm in a disagreement, I'm trying to win. This is debate club. The goal is to win, and the way that I win is to put down the other person in some way.
So if I can just dismiss them, that means I win. And I wanna point out, I don't think it works that way."***
Karen & Paul talk about the importance of validating others' perspectives even in disagreements.
"Ultimately, delivering an ultimatum, like any tough conversation, is about saying things that people don't want to hear in ways they can hear it."
Karen & Paul discuss delivering ultimatums in a way that maintains relationships while clearly communicating needs. The goal is to make the conversation constructive, focusing on both the content and the relationship.
"Power over always damages relationships. Sometimes it's worth it. I think this is one of those cases that we do it because it's worth it. If it's worth it, but if you say it and don't mean it, odds are you'll have damaged the relationship."
Karen & Paul explore whether to express ultimatums in challenging situations. They advise thinking carefully before making strong statements and suggest examining the underlying emotions driving these feelings. They also discuss the importance of timing and ensuring all other options have been exhausted. The key is to determine if saying something will be constructive and if you're prepared to act on it. The next episode will cover how to communicate these decisions effectively.
"Someone is kind of making some sort of argument, and then you eventually realize that they're arguing against something that no one is actually even proposing that you do. And by making it clear that that's not being proposed, it can be really useful, because it heads those kinds of things off."
Karen & Paul share strategies for narrowing choices in group decision-making. They explain the importance of defining choices clearly, using techniques like mini-consensus, creating buckets, and performing temperature checks to gauge support.
They also talk about making proposals and why it's essential to consider what everyone in the group can live with. The goal is to make more efficient and effective decisions while keeping everyone engaged.
"If we don't stop to say, 'What are our values?' the personal interest will become our values. It will be what guides the conversation."
Karen & Paul discuss the importance of identifying and understanding values within a group before making decisions.
"Because, fundamentally, our perspective is when you're getting a group of people together to do something, you want to make good use of that time."
Karen & Paul discuss the importance of planning meetings effectively in collaborative spaces.
They highlight that proper preparation before meetings, such as understanding participants' goals and building trust, results in better outcomes and efficient use of time.
"That's the thing we wanna reach for is the ability to do both. But in that moment that I know I don't have the capacity to do both, I reach for the one that's unfamiliar but that will save me from the trouble that I tend to get myself in because that autopilot thing still applies."
Karen & Paul unpack how to be both warm and assertive in your communication. They explore what gets in the way, how energy impacts our ability to do both, and why balancing clarity and care is key to building trust in teams and relationships.
Items mentioned in this episode:
- Likeable Badass by Alison Fragale
"There's a cultural value around helping is good but receiving help is not. There's a one-up, one-down relationship between someone who is helping and someone who's receiving help."
Karen & Paul dive into the emotional and cultural barriers that stop us from requesting assistance, even when we desperately need it. From fear of looking weak to stories about self-sufficiency, they explore why people hesitate to ask and how this affects collaboration, morale, and efficiency.
"For everything that goes well, we can get a tiny bit of fuel from it or a huge amount of fuel from it, depending on how we think about it, how we share it, how we celebrate it, how we engage with it."
Karen & Paul share the importance of finding emotional and energetic fuel for collaborative work, especially when dealing with relationship challenges in groups.
They highlight the value of focusing on what is going well, celebrating successes, gratitude practices, and fostering genuine connections to maintain energy and motivation. Authenticity and appropriateness in these practices are emphasized to ensure they resonate with the group.
"To be able to say, yeah, I get it. It's tough, right? It's a hard spot to be in, to be there, and it's actually pretty typical. It's not a sign you're doing it wrong. It's not just you."
Karen & Paul discuss how individuals in corporate and community settings often feel isolated in their challenges, thinking it's just them.
They emphasize the importance of normalizing these feelings by sharing and surfacing common problems in structured spaces. This reduces shame and anxiety, making it easier to address issues collaboratively. They suggest that managers and community members can create environments where these discussions can take place.
"It's also true that we are not as good at a particular thing as somebody else, and so I think the thing that is so essential and so rare here is that we figure out how to have honest conversations and acknowledgement of the difference in skill level that doesn't carry with it a difference in value of the person."
Karen & Paul share the challenges and dynamics of having a highly skilled expert on a team. They explore how the presence of a standout expert can both benefit and complicate team interactions.
"You now are inadvertently most likely sending the message, you do not value their expertise. That expertise that they spent the time developing, you know, now it really sends the message, it's not only that we're not gonna use your work, but we also don't value your perspective, your opinion."
Karen & Paul discuss the importance of acknowledging and appreciating the work done by individuals or groups in collaborative settings, even if their work isn't used.
"If I wanna have the kind of influence that I need to be an effective leader, I need trust. And in order to trust me, they're going to have to see me being vulnerable."
Karen & Paul explore why leaders in hierarchical organizations often hesitate to admit mistakes. They discuss how this reluctance can harm trust and influence.
Book mentioned in this episode:
- The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni
"While structure and process do shape behavior in certain ways, and it can nudge our beliefs in certain ways around this. It isn't as big a lever as people often think that it is."
Karen & Paul discuss whether changing organizational structure can solve issues within a group. They explore how often cultural and relational problems are mistaken for structural ones.
"We do this because if everybody had to be part of every decision, we'd never get anything done."
Karen & Paul talk about how to select a board for an organization, focusing on boards that represent members.
"We don't have to be cruel when we use authority. We can be humane; we can still reach into that space between, and there are ways of doing that that not a lot of us have experience doing."
Karen & Paul discuss when and how to use authority in conflicts without damaging relationships.
"Do I think the other person is interested in repairing the relationship? Because if they're not, the chances that they're gonna invest the time and energy into it to make it work, those chances are low."
Karen & Paul talk about how to handle conflicts in collaborative spaces. They introduce a four-bucket model for conflict management: tolerance, relationship repair, behavior response, and power over.
Links and items mentioned in this episode:
- Tolerate: Employing Differences, Episode 152: When is this "fine"?
- Relationship Repair:
- Employing Differences, Episode 196: What will repair this?
- Employing Differences, Episode 217: How can I repair trust?
- Behavior Response: Employing Differences, Episode 240: What are my choices?
"How can we shift from a place of blame and judgment into a place of curiosity?"
Karen & Paul discuss the importance of focusing on present dynamics rather than delving into the detailed history when resolving conflicts within groups.
"One of the things that is our job as facilitators is to shift the dynamics that you're used to having."
Karen & Paul talk about the key information facilitators need when joining a new group. They discuss the balance between knowing group dynamics and avoiding personal biases.
" And the more anxious and stressed we are, the more likely we are to take the path of least neural resistance, which is the thing that we've done."
Karen & Paul discuss why we often repeat the same behaviors despite wanting to change. They explain that our brains are wired to follow habitual patterns.
"If I know why I'm trying to be there, then my next question is, why do I not want to be there fully?"
Karen & Paul talk about how to balance being present in meetings with the demands of multitasking, especially in today's attention-fragmented world. They explore individual and group needs for attention, provide strategies for making conscious decisions about how fully to participate, and highlight the impact of divided attention on relationships.
"Whenever we're doing things together, we tend to think that people participating, people being involved, people being engaged, is a good thing."
Karen & Paul discuss the complexity of increasing group participation. They explore why people may not participate and suggest that simply aiming for more involvement might not be the solution.
"But if you're really clear that this is a terrible idea, you need to say that you think this is a terrible idea. And probably give some reasons for it because we are in a collaborative space."
Karen & Paul explore the importance of saying no in collaborative spaces. They explore why people hesitate to say no, its impact on relationships, and how to say no effectively.
"There's often a case that when you're in a highly blamable role, it's very easy to fall into that trap of thinking I own this. Therefore, I'm going to start trying to exert this kind of control that I don't actually have."
Karen & Paul discuss the pitfalls of feeling like you own the meeting when facilitating. They explain the importance of recognizing the group's autonomy and resisting the urge to control.
"I think we misrepresent to ourselves what it means to be late, what the impact of that is. And so I think the math that we like to do, and frankly, I do this math too, is, Oh, they'll just sort of be gathering, and I won't really miss anything."
Karen & Paul talk about whether it's acceptable to arrive late in collaborative settings. They explain how the disruption of group members coming and going can unconsciously affect everyone involved.
"Tell me a little more about what you're trying to use this information for, because I may be able to give you better information."
Karen & Paul discuss why simple questions often lead to unexpected or defensive answers. They explore how questions can be loaded with hidden meanings and assumptions, causing misunderstandings.
"Are the people who would have to change, who would have to do the work to make that change, are they the ones who want it? Are they the ones thinking this is a good idea? Are they the ones asking for help?"
Karen & Paul Paul talk about the importance of identifying who wants change in collaborative work.
"Anytime anyone in a position of authority acts out of alignment from these values, that is a rife ground for cynicism."
Karen & Paul explore whether group values are beneficial. They highlight that while group values can unify and guide decision-making, the process often turns into ineffective wordsmithing.
"So while you're doing the vision work, you want to be saying, okay, so what does that actually look like concretely?"
Karen & Paul discuss the importance of balancing visionary discussions with concrete details in collaborative spaces. They emphasize that while dreaming and vision are important, actual logistics, tasks, and specifics must also be addressed to avoid misunderstandings and ensure a productive relationship.
"At the point where you've reached the point where both people are really only expressing an interest in protecting themselves and not in actually solving the problem, that's a point where it can be useful for them to take a break, to simmer down, to deescalate to the point where they can get back to actually wanting to solve the problem again."
Karen & Paul dive into the benefits and caveats of using cooling-off periods to handle conflicts, especially in team settings.
"And a lot of that don't have a choice, what happens is it puts us in a place where we feel very victimy and helpless, which leads to resentment and anger."
Karen & Paul explore how to navigate conflict by assessing personal values and considering a wide range of choices. They emphasize understanding why a situation matters, outlining all possible actions, and predicting likely outcomes to choose the best option.
"We get work done with and through other people. There's always relationships involved. And so my standpoint is generally that you are going to achieve the work more effectively if you're better at building positive working relationships with other people."
Karen & Paul talk about whether relationships matter, even in contexts where they are not a priority.
"I'm doing a thing that just doesn't serve what I say is important to me, what I believe is important to me, what I value, what I care about, that is not equivalent to saying, wow, I'm a terrible person."
Karen & Paul discuss the misalignment between unconscious habitual behavior and consciously held values.
"You're going to be trying to tell me about my impact and I'm going to be trying to defend myself by talking about my intentions. We actually need to talk about the same thing at the same time. If you're telling me about impact, I need to get curious about impact. We need to have a conversation at the impact level."
Karen & Paul dive into the importance of recognizing the difference between intention and impact in our actions.
Links and items mentioned in this episode:
- Employing Differences, Episode 192: What's going on with them?
" When there is a need for the emotions to come into the room, when we should talk about our feelings, we need to do that in an intentional and probably structured way."
Karen & Paul tackle the importance of acknowledging emotions in decision-making, especially when groups are stuck.
Links and items mentioned in this episode:
- The Cooperative Culture Handbook, Exercise 12.1
"Is my desire for them to land in a particular place causing me to make decisions that are going to take them the wrong way towards what I think is the right choice? "
Karen & Paul talk about the challenges facilitators face in maintaining neutrality during group decision-making.
Links and items mentioned in this episode:
- Employing Differences, Episode 146: What can a facilitator say?
"The more that the relationship space stays clean and clear, the more sense of freedom that everybody has. They have freedom to come right up to my boundary because they know where it is. They don't have to leave extra or wonder where it is or be on tiptoes or whatever."
Karen & Paul dive into how setting and communicating personal boundaries not only safeguards oneself but also benefits others and strengthens relationships.
"For me at least personally it's been very useful for just to slow them down, just to say could I get you to just mirror back to me what do you think my concern is, or what do I think is going to happen here?"
Karen & Paul tackle the issue of approaching disagreements with overconfidence and the good side of not always having to be 'right'.
" If somebody is talking to us, they would like to be heard. They would like to have a sense of connection. They would like something to shift or to matter to us or something. And if they get the sense that that is possible and that we're available in a way that almost nobody is. That is way powerful."
Karen & Paul emphasize the value of listening over speaking in effective communication.
Links and items mentioned in this episode:
- How to Talk with Anyone about Anything by Harville Hendrix and Helen LaKelly Hunt
- The Cooperative Culture Handbook by Yana Ludwig and Karen Gimnig
- Thanks for the Feedback: The Science and Art of Receiving Feedback Well by Douglas Stone & Sheila Heen
- Difficult Conversations by Douglas Stone, Bruce Patton, and Sheila Heen
- The Coaching Habit by Michael Bungay Stanier
"When we don't trust the group to be able to take individual preferences into account and then make a decision when every sharing of information to us sounds like a demand."
Karen & Paul explore the challenges of understanding what participants want in group settings when people are not forthcoming.
Links and items mentioned in this episode:
- Abilene Paradox
"It doesn't matter if it's your boss or somebody else. It could be your report. It could even be someone that you could give instructions to. But some kind of opener that lets them know what's coming and gives them a chance to say, are they up for it or not?"
Karen & Paul discuss the importance of deciding how to disagree in a way that maintains relationships.
Links and items mentioned in this episode:
- Employing Differences, Episode 171: Is it safe to disagree with me?
- Employing Differences, Episode 229: May I disagree?
"I've largely gotten to the point where I can say, Hmm, I disagree, but no one else needs to know about that. It's not worth my time, or my energy to bring it up."
Karen & Paul discuss the importance of knowing when to speak up and disagree, and preparing for potential outcomes.
Links and items mentioned in this episode:
- Employing Differences, Episode 171 - Is it safe to disagree with me?
"I'm going to start from the assumption that they're doing that because they're in distress, because they're anxious, because they're possibly feeling insecure, or they're fearing failure. And to expect that they're going to have the ability to then show up well in the space between is unrealistic."
Karen & Paul explore how gut feelings that something isn't right often stem from personal or shared history.
Links and items mentioned in this episode:
- Employing Differences, Episode 217 - How can I repair trust?
"As long as I'm sitting in a place of any outcome anybody's talking about, totally works for me. I can take my energy and go home and spend my time doing whatever else would be useful for my time and energy and it will actually make the community process go faster and better because they have one less person getting tangled up in it."Karen & Paul discuss how sometimes energy is wasted on issues that may not be significant or real.
"We don't just show up fresh to every conversation. We bring with us all kinds of things that are outside the room into the room we're having the conversation with."
Karen & Paul discuss their experiences with not being at their best when collaborating and offer strategies to maintain a healthy relationship with the team.
"If you are hoping to have ongoing relationships, either with individuals or with the group, you want to be thoughtful about what kind of relationships you hope those will be and what it will take to make that happen."
Karen & Paul share tips on quitting or leaving a group.
"We often undervalue or we understate how much adding another person to a group makes it harder for the group to do its work. But we also want to make sure that the group isn't so small that there aren't perspectives that aren't being represented that need to be there."
Karen & Paul talk about figuring out how many people should be in a group to get certain tasks done.
"If somebody else is doing it, think about them with curiosity and compassion. Why are they doing it? What are they needing? And how do we address that need, even though we don't sanction what they're doing to try and get that need met? And if it's spinning and it's just filling up your inbox, be willing to set a boundary to say, 'Nope, I'm opting out.'"
Karen & Paul share how addressing issues via public online platforms or group channels can fuel emotional outbursts in group settings.
"I always love asking the question, why is the problem a problem? Which is often a prompt that starts to get us into that reflective space."
Karen & Paul share tips on how to handle a problem in a group that seems impossible to fix.
"I think it is often useful to ask for questions. But we need to do it in a way that's effective and that helps us move towards the goals that we have for asking for them."
Karen & Paul share ways to run an effective Q&A.
"There are a variety of different roles that I might end up playing because of my natural tendencies, because of my skills, because of my needs for things to happen. And sometimes what happens in a group is I really don't want to do that."
Paul & Karen discuss what keeps us playing the same roles in groups, even when we'd rather not.
"Before I give somebody some feedback, I actually want to ask them, are they open to it? I want to ask this question because if my intention is to actually share some information that's going to help them to do something effective in the future, then I need to know that they're in a space where they could hear it."
Karen & Paul talk about being at choice about how, when, and even if we receive feedback.
"When we go to work with somebody else, it's pretty easy to find myself saying, 'Man, I wish they would just show up on time." Or, 'Man, I wish they would just be organized and not be constantly asking me for the stuff that I already sent them.' Or, 'I wish they would dream along with me so that I'm not off by myself coming up with all the big ideas.'"
Paul & Karen talk about the challenge of working with other people who aren't exactly like us.
"We shouldn't expect that things will always go perfectly, that we will never fail to deliver on our obligations. The need to repair trust isn't a sign that this is a broken, dysfunctional relationship. It's normal, it's just unfortunate."
Karen & Paul discuss rebuilding trust when we didn't do something we were supposed to.
"The way you share bad news has an impact on the relationship; on that space between; in that collaborative space. So we want to explore today ways that you can share that bad news in a way that works; in a way that maybe avoids some of the things that we think might go wrong; that actually helps us to work through the sharing of the bad news together."
Paul & Karen share advice for talking about hard things in ways that strengthen the working relationship.
This is the second of a two-part series that started with Episode 215.
"How relevant is it to them in terms of their decision-making? What sort of agency are they gonna have when this comes out? Because if it's something that's uncertain, that they can't actually do anything about, and they're just gonna stew on it and cogitate, ruminate, and stress about it, then maybe it makes sense not to share it until we know it's more likely that it's actually gonna happen."
Karen & Paul when – and when not – to share with a group things that they don't want to hear.
This is the first of a two-part series that concludes with Episode 216.
"Sometimes there are actual consequences that do need to go along when things go wrong, but it's far less often than we actually seem to think when somebody is saying there needs to be more accountability."
Paul & Karen discuss what do to when we did have shared expectations about what we needed to do, but we still didn't get the results we wanted.
This is the second of a two-part series that started with Episode 213.
"The statement 'We need more accountability' usually comes up when we've deviated in some way from our perfect idea of how we're going to work together. Which is to say, we start with this shared understanding of what it is we're all each individually going to do and deliver and who's going to do, you know, what by when and how well sorts of things."
Karen & Paul discuss techniques for setting expectations for interdependent work.
This is the first of a two-part series that concludes with Episode 213.
"For this particular decision, how aligned do we all need to be around it in order for the decision to be effective? In order for the idea that we're trying to move forward to really move into reality? Because that threshold of alignment varies with the type of thing that we're trying to do."
Paul & Karen talk about helping a group converge on decisions.
This is the finale of a three-part series that also contains Episodes 210 and 211.
"That's where the actual solutions to your complex problems are: in the things that we disagree about, that we want to run away from because other people's ideas or perspectives are so different from the ones that we have. We can't just look at them and go, "Okay, fine, whatever," and move on. We actually need to come to understand them – because that's where durable solutions to complex problems actually come from."
Karen & Paul share advice for supporting a group in seeking out and exploring disagreement.
This is the middle of a three-part series that starts with Episode 210 and concludes with 212.
"Whatever that thing is, we're bringing our own flavor to it, and we don't realize that we're painting it. A lot of that flavor painting is unconscious. And so it's not that I think I'm sneaking my way in, or you think you're sneaking your way in. It's that we don't notice how much of our own kind of criteria or condition that we have on it in our own mind."
Paul & Karen discuss things that predictably happen when we start working together to make an idea a reality.
This is the beginning of a three-part series that continues with Episodes 211 and 212.
"We often say, 'Who's willing to do this?' And we wait awkwardly for someone to raise their hand. Willingness matters, but it is not the only concern that we have."
Karen & Paul share techniques and advice for filling roles within a group.
"I don't get to decide that for the group. I set prompts that might be deeper or shallower. I set structures that facilitate depth. Some of them foster depth, and some of them don't as much. So I do make choices about how deep we're going to go. But at the end of the day, I actually only am making a decision about how deep I'm inviting people to go."
Paul & Karen discuss ways to help people do the internal work required to create change within a group.
"It's very difficult for me to assess for other people, 'Is this a space where it is safe for them to take risks?' Because they may have very different risk profiles and very different things that make things dangerous. And they may have much more severe consequences that could hit them as a result of things that they bring up. And so I think that I can say that I feel safe in this space, but I don't think I can ever say that for anybody else."
Karen & Paul discuss risks, consequences, and safety in group discussions.
"We are assuming that no one wants to be a controlling boss or to use the structural power that they have in a way that would cause someone else to feel controlling or that would diminish somebody else's agency to speak or do their job or say things. It doesn't mean that that person who has authority doesn't want to make decisions and use their decision-making authority, but they pretty reliably don't want it to impact the relationships or have other people feel like they've been put in their place or be put down."
Paul & Karen discuss hierarchy, requests, and how to approach them in ways that foster teamwork.
"There is a whole range of what transparency means. There's a range of ways we might achieve it. And we want to be thoughtful about who needs the information and how much of the information they need."
Karen & Paul discuss how the benefits – and costs – of transparency aren't always what we expect them to be.
"Those moments of conflict in those types of relationships are precisely the moments where we have the opportunity to learn and grow individually and as a part of that relationship. We get to make a choice about whether or not we want to do that."
Paul & Karen talk about how conflict creates opportunities for growth.
"With a simple decision, the math says we should do this, and somebody else is going, 'But how could you possibly?'"
Karen & Paul talk about how the logical and emotional parts of our decision-making can show up when we collaborate.
"We sometimes can fall into the trap of thinking that we can work with anyone, and that we can fix every situation. That if we just use the right words, if we approach things in the right way, that we can always make things better. And our experience has been that's not true."
Paul & Karen talk about recognizing the limits of our interpersonal skills.
"There's no one answer to this. It depends on the situation. What we really want to dig into is understanding what our options are – being able to see what's going on in these situations so that we can make good choices about it."
Karen & Paul talk about how to move forward when a situation upsets only part of a group.
"You and I continue to explore this space because we're continually learning. There is no end goal for figuring all of this stuff out. There is just getting even better at exploring that collaborative space that lives between individuals."
Paul & Karen celebrate two hundred podcast episodes by looking at themes in what they've talked about.
"If my goal is to change somebody else's behavior, I'm very unlikely to be successful. But if my goal is to make the relationship better and to change what I can change about what's going on with me, and how I'm engaging, and how I'm sharing in various ways; the likelihood that their behavior will change actually goes up."
Karen & Paul discuss one of the paradoxes of relational work.
"We can never really know what's going on with the other person. We're almost always guessing at them. And the question is whether or not the guesses we're making are helpful or not. Does it feel certain? Does it feel like I have absolved myself of any responsibility of needing to do anything different? Does it seem like this guess is always true, has always been true, will never change, and makes it feel like I have no options? If that's the case, then it's probably not as helpful to you in terms of changing what's going on."
Paul & Karen talk about more and less useful assumptions we can make about other people's circumstances and intentions.
"The place I want to start is recognizing, 'What's my pattern?' Do I always start with a question? Do I always start by saying, 'What do you think we should do?' Or do I always start with, 'Here's what I think we should do.'? If you're always doing the same thing – and by always, I mean nine times out of ten – then you're probably not choosing the thing that's useful for the situation."
Karen & Paul discuss collaborative problem-solving and whether to start with questions or statements.
"One of the most important things that you can have as a group is an understanding of how you want to repair things when things go wrong, because things always will. We can talk about how we want to work together. We can talk about what we want things to be like. And we know that those things are aspirational. Something will go wrong at some point along the line."
Paul & Karen talk about recovery and repair when things between us go wrong.
"An actual written document or policy or proposal is a concrete thing that I can say yes or no to. I can say, 'I like this part, I don't like that part.' And it requires a fair amount of editing – of making it crisp and clear – so that we are actually talking about the same thing. Because when you get documents that are super vague and super weird, then we all imagine that there are different things in there than there actually are."
Karen & Paul discuss the necessities and challenges of preparing proposals for a group to consider.
"How do you do something other than just the tag team approach? For me, that's really all about designing the partnership. If we're going to partner on facilitating this meeting, what does that look like? And one way that that partnership can be structured is we're going to take turns. But that's not the only choice that we have."
Paul & Karen discuss the benefits and challenges of co-facilitating.
"Asking about how bad it is can help us to notice when we're digging in our heels in a situation where the conflict that we're going to need to go through to get to our 'better solution' isn't going to be worth it."
Karen & Paul discuss assessing, weighing, and judging the costs of various decisions.
"At the end of the day, any action that I might take that's premised on the idea that I have full and complete knowledge of what's going on for another person is really dangerous territory."
Paul & Karen talk about the trouble we can get into when we imagine – or demand to know about – other people's inner lives.
"When people ask, 'Well, what's the best way to make a decision?' is where we fall into the realm of 'best practice.' And the thing is that there's very little actual best practice when it comes to humans working together, because of the complexities of things like this. A good practice in a particular situation is not necessarily going to be a good practice in another situation."
Karen & Paul discuss how knowing where to go from here requires understanding where "here" really is.
"There's a lot of different channels for sharing information that we often overlook when we're working in a group. We sometimes think that talking about things is the only way we can get information out there. In our experiences, there are a lot of other, richer ways that we have access to. And then it's up to us as facilitators to notice when might it be useful to do some of those things."
Paul & Karen share some of their favorite techniques for helping information flow without needing to use words.
"There are a number of ways that you can use fishbowls, but they all have that element in common of creating a shared experience for the larger group around a topic of some import and some relevance."
Karen & Paul discuss the varied uses of one of their favorite facilitation tools.
The Cooperative Culture Handbook, which contains the Bridging Circle exercise, is available at www.ic.org/handbook
"When I started using dyads and triads and groups of four or five within larger facilitated sessions, it was a game changer for me. I saw the quality of participation, the quality of the ideas, and the decisions the groups were making change pretty dramatically."
Paul & Karen talk about the advantages of using small groups inside large meetings.
"There are a lot of really useful things you can do with periods of time as short as 30 seconds or a minute – or as long as half an hour or more – of being together without speaking in that space."
Karen & Paul talk about the value of silent time in group meetings.
"If somebody showed up sobbing and saying, 'I'm having a horrible day,' we would probably shower care upon them. I want to encourage that same thing when they're showing up as loud and angry. The same neediness is actually being expressed. It's easier to do it when someone is weepy and sad and not lashing out, but it's the same problem."
Paul & Karen talk about how creating a rule is rarely a helpful response to people getting upset.
"If you don't hold things in confidence, you break trust. But if you're not transparent, you also break trust. So how do we navigate this where we want to be in trusting communities, trusting environments, trusting workplaces, and some things need to be confidential and some things need to be transparent?"
Karen & Paul discuss how both confidentiality and transparency can improve or hinder the flow of information.
"There's a famous quote from Yogi Berra, who may or may not have actually said it: 'If you don't know where you're going, you might end up somewhere else.'"
Paul & Karen talk about the importance of defining the thing that we want and thinking about what's going to get us there.
"So, if my coworker comes in in that state – or someone in community or whatever – if that person is in front of me, and I would desperately love to fix everything for them, but I can't, how do I live with that?
Karen & Paul discuss strategies for working through feeling helpless.
"What they're usually looking for is the recipe or the magic words. 'What's the thing that I can say that will change the way that this group operates so that we stop having this problem?' And unfortunately, there are no magic words. There is no magic recipe for addressing these kinds of things. But there are some patterns that we have noticed. So here are some things that we tend to do when we start to work with groups around these sorts of things that can help in these situations."
Paul & Karen talk about different approaches to shifting group dynamics.
"When we find ourselves in conflict – when we find ourselves frustrated with each other – those are indications that we should be asking, 'Are we trying to do the same thing?'"
Karen & Paul discuss how shared purpose is the core of any team or partnership.
"When we're in the moment, and the person does this thing, we lose access to our emotional skills and our ability to work together. How can we calm ourselves down so that we can get back access to that, so that we can show up as the more skillful versions of ourselves? How can we engage with the other person to help them show up as a more skillful version of themselves?"
Paul & Karen talk about interrupting our own tendency to get emotionally hijacked and using that to shift unproductive interactions.
"The assumption is that if we can just change that person's behavior, if we can upskill that person in some way, if we can get them to stop doing the problematic thing that they're doing; then things will be better. And it's true. If they stop doing that, it would be better. And that is one of the hardest paths to walk. It's a 'low percentage choice,' as one of my improv teachers would say. I think we don't realize that. And we often think it's our only option."
Karen & Paul talk about lessening the impact of problematic behavior in a group, rather than trying to change the "difficult person."
"There are traps that we can fall into when we are trying to do some discovery, some exploration. We can accidentally get into a case where we commit ourselves to a plan without thinking that that's what we were doing."
Paul & Karen discuss cognitive and emotional pitfalls of trying to work iteratively and incrementally.
"I feel like I have something that might be relevant, but I really wish someone else would say it. I really wish I wasn't the person who needed to bring it."
Karen & Paul talk about the challenges of discussing other people in a group setting.
"I definitely have spent a lot of my life cleaning up messes that came because somebody asked me a question and I gave them a clear and decisive answer. And in fact, what they wanted was something that felt to them softer, more collaborative, more engaging."
Paul & Karen discuss benefits and drawbacks of being direct. See also Episode 171: Is it safe to disagree with me?
"We need to be enough in alignment that when we get back together, we're not surprised at where we landed. Or at least, we're not badly surprised at where we landed."
Karen & Paul talk about collaborating when you can't work together.
"Do we just want to share this as information because it's relevant to other things and go on? Or do we want to invite people into a space of emotional sharing?"
Paul & Karen talk about life events, emotional baggage, and engaging (or not) around charged subjects.
See also Episode 145: What if it makes them cry?
"If I want to set a boundary, the boundary isn't about what you are or are not allowed to do, because I don't get to decide that. The boundary is about what am I going to do if that happens."
Karen & Paul explore what makes boundaries useful and the impact they can have on a relationship.
"There are situations that we need to work through as groups where we can't really predict what will happen, where there are high degrees of uncertainty. There are lots of things that are unknown – and probably unknowable. And those situations are often very, very messy."
Paul & Karen explore ways to support groups in situations where you can't take things apart.
"Being safe to disagree is so essential to teamwork, so essential to any relationship. If two humans are involved and you want to have authentic communication and you want to have creativity or you want to throw ideas around – if you can't disagree with each other, you can't do any of that other stuff."
Karen & Paul talk about things you can do to support useful disagreement.
"Most of us have a lot of experience of authority that didn't do a very good job of supporting partnership. And that's what we expect it to look like. That's how we expect a meeting to run. That's how we expect a manager to behave."
Karen & Paul explore the interactions between authority and partnership.
Additional resources:
- For Facilitators – connect-collaborate-grow.mn.co
- For Managers – managingamazingpeople.com
"How do we help a group not be overwhelmed by all of the details, by all of the interactions, by all of the moving parts in a particular situation, in order to be able to make some progress?"
Paul & Karen talk about a way groups may be able to tackle complex issues.
"One of the things we know about human beings and the way that they make decisions is that very often we are led by our immediate emotional response that we then find facts to support."
Karen & Paul talk about how we make "logical" arguments that aren't as logic-based as we think they are.
"There are things that often sound like invitations that often aren't. Things that show up in that space between where one person is asking something from another person or a group of people. There are different things that might be packed into that, and that can cause confusion, frustration, and an impact on the collaborative space between people."
Paul & Karen talk about invitations, requests, and demands.
"It's very easy for us to fall into assuming that because we are part of a group, and there is a problem that exists in the group, therefore, the problem is mine."
Paul & Karen talk about addressing problems that affect you but might not be "yours."
"A lot of that is intuitive. A lot of it is 'feel your way.' But some hints to help with the intuition are talk to multiple people, get multiple perspectives, and listen for the thing they're not saying. Bring up the things that they may be avoiding and ask explicitly. Ask the open-ended kinds of questions so that they do speak freely."
Karen & Paul talk about how to approach complex topics in ways that improve the group's chances of success.
"I think – in consensus situations, in particular – it's wise to get clear about 'What are the likely outcomes of my choices?' And I may not like any of them, but I at least can choose the one I like the best."
Paul & Karen talk about getting unstuck when there isn't a clear method to resolve disagreements about how to proceed.
"What's the objective of doing this thing? What is the thing that we hope this item will accomplish? And is it accomplishing that? And is that thing worth the resources that we have?"
Karen & Paul discuss making meetings better by choosing what not to spend time on.
"This is not a question that we actually recommend asking, but it's a question that we sometimes think really strongly and sometimes comes out of our mouths – which probably isn't our best moment."
Paul & Karen talk about how the emotional gap between people can become a barrier to collaboration.
"I have often said that the only useful answer to the question 'Do you understand?' is 'No.'"
Karen & Paul talk about the difference between saying things and communicating them.
"We arrive in adulthood with a great deal of experience with people in authority. We probably knew some that we thought did a great job. And we certainly, I think, knew someone who we thought really misused and even abused their authority."
Paul & Karen discuss how our relationship with authority influences our ability to use it effectively and humanely.
"What is it that I actually want to do for you in our relationship, in the context of the work we do together? What are the things that I would look forward to, that I would enjoy, that I would feel are important, that would be validating to me? What are the things that really are what I want to contribute to the collaboration, to the relationship?"
Karen & Paul talk about the kinds of support that we look forward to giving each other.
"When we look at both the costs of not trusting and the risks associated with trusting, are we picking the path that gives us the right amount of efficiency?"
Paul & Karen talk about risk, trust, and working together.
"Do we talk about each other more than we talk to each other? If so, that's probably a sign that we're avoiding the conversations we really need to have."
Karen & Paul discuss shifting away from gossiping and toward getting support for difficult conversations.
"'How does this impact me? How do I feel about this? What bothers me about this bad news? What's the emotional effect that it has on me? How do I relate to it?' If it's throwing me all kinds of off-kilter, and I'm trying to present it to the group in a way that's going to be useful – that they can interact with it, they can make decisions about – that's not necessarily the best state to be in."
Karen & Paul talk about sharing unwelcome information in a way that creates trust.
"But if we have three different understandings or three different models of how this operates – that's the situation we want to avoid. We don't want to get to the problem and realize we don't have a common way of understanding or talking about the problem."
Paul & Karen discuss the challenges of creating shared understanding – and the dangers of failing to do so.
"Fear is one of those emotions that we often don't like to feel. We often want to try to get away and get it marginalized. So even if we are open to, 'Hey, we are going to make decisions not purely based on logic, so we are going to listen to some emotions,' fear is often not one of the ones that we want to get snuggly with."
Karen & Paul talk about how to unwrap wisdom that's tied up in fear.
"Okay, I'm with someone and they're really upset. What's going on for me? What is my instinct? Where am I going? And is that the direction I want to go?"
Paul & Karen talk about how strong emotions can be contagious – and what to do about it.
"'Fine' is a code word for 'Actually, they're not how I want them to be and I don't feel like talking about it and getting into it right now.'"
Karen & Paul talk about bringing up things that aren't working for us.
"In order for groups to make good decisions, they need to go through that process collectively so that they're actually in sync with each other at each stage."
Paul & Karen talk about how to handle disagreements and differing conclusions in group decision-making situations.
"What do you value about the perspective that you tend not to bring?"
Paul & Karen discuss ways of working with tensions between "evolutionary" and "design up-front" approaches.
"Instead of working through every hypothetical to try to get the perfect thing up front, find something that seems plausible. And try it with a commitment that we have to honor, that we come back to it and say, "Is this working?", and have that evolving thing happening? And that really in the end probably gives us the best processes of all. At the least cost!"
Paul & Karen talk about evolving processes.
"Yeah, we got it on paper. But we didn't get it in, as you might say, 'people's hearts and minds'. We didn't get it in a way that shows up in people's behavior, or that results in compliance or support of whatever the thing was that we were working toward."
Paul & Karen discuss the impacts of ways of working together on being together.
"The first thing we want to say is let's get away from the ‘Do you have to?’ or ‘Are you willing to?’ and really live in the space of ‘Can you?’"
Paul & Karen talk about obligation, willingness, and capacity.
"As a facilitator, if I'm noticing that the patterns in the way that the group is working is not helping the group move forward towards its goals, it's usually useful to say something about that. In a way that the group can hear, in a way that isn't shutting people down, it isn't demeaning."
Paul & Karen discuss the impact a facilitator’s words can have.
Miki Kashtan’s The Highest Common Denominator
"And so what we want to do is not be afraid of it, not run away from it. And also not drag them into the deep end of it. Or bring ours in with them. But to be curious and check in. Express, somehow, sympathy, of whatever sort makes sense to you. Offer what you can. "
Paul & Karen discuss coming back to the workplace after experiencing grief.
Here's Karen's grief journey, as we talked about in this episode.
"Don't take away someone's coping strategy without giving them something else that works for them."
Karen & Paul talk about working with people who are dealing with difficulty in ways that are causing problems for those around them.
"Starting to question assumptions about how things have to be when we settle in the new place and then seeing what other people's capacity for experimenting with those assumptions, I think, is an important place to start."
Karen & Paul discuss making the most of change.
"Recognizing that different people and different meanings and different moments, at different times, will have different amounts of influence. And that the thing you want to pay attention to is 'Where is the imbalance?'"
Paul & Karen talk about working with the inevitable differences in influence within a group.
"The best antidote I know to a thing being functionally or socially forbidden, even though it's a thing we would like people to do, is for people to start doing it."
Paul & Karen talk about dealing with topics that don't seem safe to broach.
"I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying my understanding of what you're saying doesn't match my prior experience. Can you help me reconcile those?"
Paul & Karen talk about working collaboratively instead of competitively.
"We often hear, 'This is really great! And we can't, because we don't have everyone on board.'"
Paul & Karen talk about creating change by starting small – and without everyone.
"We tell ourselves a story about 'If I don't do this thing – or if I do this thing that I want to do – somebody else will be unhappy with me. And therefore, I don't have a choice, I have to do it.'"
Paul & Karen discuss obligation, resentment, and reclaiming a sense of agency.
"It can be useful to name out loud that while our intentions around support haven't changed, the reality is we are going to disappoint each other."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"There is this misnomer that we have heard you because we sat here quietly while you talked. That is not the same thing. I can sit here quietly while people talk and not hear them at all."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"It's so much less vulnerable to just declare something unreasonable or inappropriate, or put those values- and judgment-laden words in it, and not have to deal with what's real."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"It's not a simple decision of 'Do we need to postpone when someone's not going to be able to attend or not?' And in fact, what we're saying is it shouldn't be."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Ignoring that there is a seasonality and a cyclicality to things can cause us a lot of problems, because we have expectations that can't be met."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If your brain is saying, 'I'll just build a new system, and it will fix it,' it's a good idea to hit the pause button and ask yourself a few questions."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
See also Employing Differences, Episode 108: Is this change done?
"That's where learning happens: where you're a little anxious and not terrified."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Having a way for people to express not only what their preference is, but what their willingness is, makes group decision-making much easier."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If we don't have the world's greatest cat herder, to what degree can we ask the cats to be slightly more well-behaved and need less herding?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If you're asking the boss to change something, to pay attention to something, to engage with something, there's a fair chance they'll change. And there's no guarantee that it will be exactly the way you want it."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"We're keeping in mind the goal is for us to work well and effectively together. And if that's the goal, then we're not in the space of shame, blame, or judgment."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"These are agreements that are designed to help the group be as effective as they can. That doesn't mean that they're designed to make us feel as comfortable as possible."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If what you want is buy-in, or if you're trying to get consensus on a thing, shortening the amount of time does not magically make it fit in that time box. "
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Contracting is about doing things that – in the simplest possible ways – help us to get on the same page about what it is that we're trying to accomplish together."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"How can we build resilience in the group so that when this behavior happens, it doesn't have the same level of destructive impact on the group? And how can each of us contribute to that resilience?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"How do we know if we've got ghosts and what those ghosts are?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"The more that I have a tendency to just give advice, the less likely I am to be good at discerning whether it's what somebody else needs."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"We need to do the emotional preparation – as well as the cognitive planning – in order to really be ready for something."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Not having a point of view and not having an opinion is not something human beings are very good at."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Having systems that don't require us to always be operating at our best is important. As a friend of mine likes to say, there's a reason why it's called 'your best.' It's not your average, and it's not your worst."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"The more that everybody is specialized, the less it feels like a team – the less we can help each other, the less we have support for each other, the less we feel engaged in a sense of belonging with each other."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"In this particular situation, how can I see that these assumptions have me? It's not that I have them. They've got me."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"We will have some people who are really good cognitively and some people who are really attuned emotionally, and they can miss each other. Instead of getting the benefit of both, we get this competition between them."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Discomfort is telling us there's a thing we need to learn more about. We may not want to run headlong into it. But we should at least understand what it is that we're dealing with, so that we can choose an appropriate course of action."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"We're not perfect, we're not going to be perfect, and we shouldn't plan on being perfect."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"When things that we didn't want to have happen did happen, how can we respond more usefully than just pointing fingers?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"The more we have the habit of checking in with our intentions, bringing them consciously to mind, and then seeing how our actions align helps us to navigate those external things that come up, that try to drag us away, and get in the way of being intentional."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If I'm having trouble being curious, I should get really interested in why. Why am I so attached that I can't be curious about what these other people that I'm working with are wanting and needing and showing up with?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Sometimes that means that you're going into a big hairy mess, or lots of decisions, or a lot that's going on in one meeting, and the last thing you want to do is add to the agenda. But in fact, you have to. If you want all that decision-making to go smoothly, you have to start with, 'How are we making this decision?'"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If you are trying to help a change happen, be vulnerable, ask for help. But also, if you can be genuinely curious about what other people would find useful, that helps the group move forward as well."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"What shifts power dynamics is not seeing ourselves as disconnected from the other people involved in this. This is something that lives in this space between. And so we have to be on an ongoing basis collaborating and supporting each other, in order to change the nature of that space between."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If this is how power is currently distributed, how well is that helping us to achieve our aims and our purposes? Is it arranged in a way that is useful for us? Or is it arranged in a way that is actually hindering us?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If you have a difference of opinion about whether there's a power gradient and you think there isn't one, it's very predictable that you are the person who has the most power."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If you can't go in with a truly invitational unattached offer, you might very well be going too deep for the group."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"As humans, we're not necessarily good at providing useful levels of context for people. It's very easy to fall into the "too much," very easy to fall into the "too little," and often very easy to fall into the "not at the right time" traps."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"How do I speak up and say that's not going to work for me before I get into that place of resentment?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If we want to create space for learning, we need to actually believe that change and improvement is possible. And then we actually need to act as though that is true."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Let's not confuse motion with progress. If we haven't actually figured out what direction we're trying to go in, then we don't actually know whether or not the things that we're doing are moving us in that direction."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Trust is what's required when we don't know it will work."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Where you start is where you have enough anxiety to know that you have something you'd like to be different, you're willing to do some skill-building, and you have enough safety that you can tolerate moving through the anxiety and making the changes."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Being able to set aside biases and assumptions, and get really conscious of the simple job of holding space and offering structure to help the group make decisions is so important and so easy to slip."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"It's a leap of faith, but if I'm somebody who's been in this organization for a while and new people are coming in, I can't wait for them to earn my trust. I have to be vulnerable and extend trust to them in order to help both them and myself through this period of chaos."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"When we come together to do things collectively, it's not smooth. There are friction points. There are difficulties. And in fact, that's a feature, not a bug."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If you're not acting on the things that people are worried about, and you're not gonna act on things that people are worried about, why are you doing a survey?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Are people actually inquiring about other people's needs? Are they speaking about their own? And are they doing that in a way where it seems like they're not threatened by one or the other?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Absolute clarity in documents is just not a human reality. Our brains are so good at interpreting language to mean what we would like it to mean, or what it would be convenient for us to mean, or what we're afraid that it means."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"What are the things that we unconsciously end up importing into groups, into teams, into organizations, and what might we do about that if we don't want them there?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"What are your sources of support? How are you managing your nervous system? How are you managing your anxiety around bringing this change?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"You want to prepare for urgent situations by doing trust building and relationship building beforehand so that you can leverage it. Because if you don't have it in that moment, you're going to need to do more cleanup afterward."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"While the calendar or the clock can be useful prompts and cues, we need to be aware of how the work that we're doing – that we're going to be reflecting on – does or doesn't align with that cadence."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"You can lead from whatever chair you're in. The scope of what you can do from that chair differs, the options you have available to you differ, but it is possible for you to contribute regardless of whether or not you have any formal authority."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Is that a thing that actually works for me? Is that a thing that will actually work for the team? Is that a thing that will actually have the effect that we're hoping for?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"What's useful when you're building a new skill – when you're trying to do something different – is to let people know that you're trying to do it differently and ask them for feedback on how you're doing."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If we've gotten all of the heavy emotional stuff on the table, then we probably have enough. And if we haven't, and we're being conflict avoidant, we're probably borrowing trouble if we move ahead without getting through it."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"We have to manage ourselves as facilitators. We're not just paying attention to what's going on in the group, about where they are going – but also noticing what's going on in us as we're working with them."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If there's a sense that we trust each other and that we know that our input will be considered, then my need to say, 'I want to make sure I get to approve that before it happens,' goes away."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If something's not happening, but we know it's our job to do it, it can be super hard to ask for help. And if we see a thing that's not happening, and we know it's somebody else's job, it can be super hard to offer help."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Where are we relationally? Where are we in the arc of this process? And is the thing that I'm wanting to suggest or the thing that someone else is suggesting appropriate for that phase for where we are right now?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"We don't always think of challenging work as learning space. We're like, 'Oh, that's just a hard project.' Well, it's hard because we don't know how to do it yet. If we were good at it, and didn't have anything to learn from it, it wouldn't be hard."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"This is the world I am in. Who do I want to be now? How do I want to engage? What impact do I want to have, given the situation that I'm now aware exists?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Chemistry is the implicit creation of expectations and understandings about how we're going to work together. And you can do it cheaper and faster by doing it explicitly."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Moving through conflict is a process of growth and healing and self-discovery that is powerful in a way that nothing else that I know of is. It is a rich, rich space of personal growth that, frankly, nobody raises their hand and volunteers for but all of us actually need."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"I don't want to just say, 'Oh, you're right, that other person is terrible. It's all their fault. They were so mean to you.' Because that's not true. It might help them feel a little bit better, but it's also unlikely to change things in the future."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"We tend to think, 'Well if I want to help them, that that must be a good thing.' In fact, it can be a pretty complicated thing and driven way more by my own guilt, or whatever my side of this thing is. And if it's being driven by my need, it might very well not be helpful."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If I'm getting resistance to a thing that I think would be useful, I get curious about where that resistance is coming from. I can assume that there is a reason someone's resisting or a group of people are resisting. So what is that reason?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"We disagree whether or not doing this will lead to the result you want. Let's explore that together. What are you seeing that I'm not that's leading you to one conclusion? What am I seeing that you're not that is leading me to a different one?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"When a thing happens in a group between two people, but it happens in the group, if there's any sort of reconciliation that happens between the people, it also needs to get addressed in the group."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"In the simplest case, we've got Option A, and we've got Option B. In a majority vote, what we end up with is one of those and some winners and some losers. And neither the winners nor the losers actually are feeling particularly connected and engaged and happy."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Although this is a conversation that could happen, that might imaginably have an objective I'd like, that might resolve the thing that's been niggling me – you know what, I'm not gonna do it. And I'm going to feel good about that."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"So, why not both? I think part of the answer to that is, because by doing both, you might get neither."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If we want to get a different result, it's not that we have to change who we are, but we might have to change how we do things. And teasing those things apart can be difficult and challenging."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"We have been very successful by decomposing things and ignoring the ways that they are interconnected and interdependent. As we are starting to tackle more and more challenging problems, more organizations and groups are realizing they aren't really separable."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Typically, the thing we don't want to keep doing – the thing we'd like to change – is very much tied to a thing that's very useful to us. In fact, it can be exactly the same skill, but showing up in a different framework."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"This is about making sure that we're working in a sustainable way: that we're able to absorb and process the stresses that we've been going through – and maybe even learn something from them."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"When we're in the place of excuses, of justification, of blame, we're not actually in control. We have a greatly diminished sense of autonomy when we're in that space."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"When we put a word like creativity or diversity or sustainability into our vision statements, very often what we're doing is picking a comfortable word that each of us will interpret to mean the thing we would like it to mean. Theoretically, we're documenting our alignment. In fact, the words that we have in there represent anything but alignment."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"When someone else is talking, you might have an idea and might be possessed by the incredible urge to share the idea that you have. Sometimes that's useful, and sometimes it's not."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If we're doing the class clown act to distract, to escape, to disengage, to protect, to defend, then yeah, we'd probably like someone to be more serious. But if we are being playful and goofy and silly in serious engagement with the group, that's likely to be really productive."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"'This was the decision we made. This was the process we followed. These were the things that we considered.' When you share that with the larger group and tell people about those things, they have less of a concern and less of a need to know of who said what."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If you want to make that really rich and deep, you can ask yourself, 'That thing that's driving me crazy about them? What's really good about that thing? What do I appreciate about that particular thing?'"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Feedback for most of us is a stretch. In fact, if you're not feeling stretched while you're giving feedback, my guess is you could give better feedback. But really good feedback is almost always a stretch outside that comfort zone."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"When we get anxious that things are not going the way we want them to, the counter-instinctual but really useful response is to release and expand our vision and ask, 'How do we create space between the two of us to actually make this work?' Because that's where the real solution is probably going to come from."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"We can revisit decisions and say, 'This was exactly the right thing to do at the time. And I think we need to revisit it to see if it's still the right thing to do.'"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"In addition to cultivating awareness that we are telling ourselves a story about what we're encountering, it's useful to remind ourselves that other people are doing that, too."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Truly being collaborative is being able to attend to self and also attend to the collective, to the group. To be able to hold both of those things not in opposition to each other but at the same time."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"One of the valuable places we can get to is when we notice a thing out here that's causing some discomfort in us to get curious about what that is. We might learn something about what's going on out here. We also might learn something about ourselves in the process."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"So what's the cost of being right? And what are you willing to pay? What are you actually willing to give up in order to 'be right?'"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"As trust evolves in a group, it's important that you also evolve – and acknowledge that you're evolving – how you make decisions."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"There is a cultural belief at the root of this that says, 'Investing in our people and helping them grow and learn is the way that we succeed collectively.' If we don't believe in that, we will unconsciously do all kinds of things that stop people from growing."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Often decisions about hiring consultants get budget consideration. 'Do we have the money for it?' But actually, the bigger question is, 'Do we have the time?'"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"The better job I've done identifying my actual need, the more likely it is that my request can be met because the actual need can almost always be met in a number of different ways."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"I almost want to stop calling them working agreements, and start calling them shared intentions."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Where are our patterns and our habits contributing to the result we don't want?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"When I can be clear about why I'm talking, it helps me get to the point. But also when I can make it clear to other people why I'm talking, they can know how to engage with that."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"I can't guarantee that their behavior will change if I do set a boundary. I can't guarantee that I'm actually going to be good at setting that boundary, because I haven't been practicing that. But what I can guarantee is, if I don't, I'm going to continue to get the same result that I'm getting."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"The goal is not to get alignment. The goal is to become aware of range, in a really respectful space where we say 'If it's important to you, it's important to us. If it matters to you, it has space in this space.'"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"We actually approach problems differently, both individually and collectively, when we slow down and are able to be deliberative about it."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If you're using a rule to avoid vulnerability, then you're using a rule in a way that gets in the way of relationship."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"How do we help people understand the value that other folks – on teams, in groups, that they're working with – bring?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Really good feedback arrives as complaints fairly often – and how we receive it is what makes the difference."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"In a setting where money is being exchanged, where work is being done, we've been trained – we've been enculturated – to believe that we're supposed to only interact in these formal ways."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"That energy that I may need to spend in order to appear professional when I'm working with a client is energy that I can't be spending actually helping them with their problem. Regardless of whether or not that image that I'm trying to create is useful or appropriate, I'm spending the energy on that, which means I can't allocate it to something else."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"I think we've all had the experience of working in a group on something where at least one member of the group is ready to move on. We're going, 'Yep, this is good enough. We're ready to go. We can move on to something else.' And at least one other member of the group says, 'No, we can't move on yet. We still need to work on this stuff. There's more things that we need to do.' And navigating those situations can be a real challenge."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If we're trying to change something, what do we need to be prepared for coming along with that change?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Work happens inside a container of relationships. The relationship is a resource that we can draw on when we're doing the work. It becomes an asset for us. It allows us to do harder and harder work when we're working together. And so, when that is strong, when it's working well, when it is an asset we can draw on, we don't need to spend as much time or as much focus maintaining it. We need to spend some because over time, there are things that come up. But when it's working well, we can actually kind of let it unfold, and we can really focus on the work that we're trying to do together. I think when to prioritize the relationship is when we notice that it's not working well – which is, of course, the time when we are least likely to want to focus on that."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"I think it's important to be able to show up as your whole self, and then to make conscious and informed choices about what it is useful and productive to disclose about that. Because when we first come to understand what is in the room for us, and then are able to name what's relevant for other people to know about what's in the room, then I think we can make much more effective use of our time together."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"The challenge that many of us who are helpful by nature run into is that oftentimes we start doing things when we notice that there's a problem and we want to help. And we don't recognize that by doing that, we are contributing to the continuation of the problem. You're talking about workarounds in systems. And every time you do something like that, every time you hide the fact that the system is not addressing whatever it's supposed to be addressing, that you are now guaranteeing that the system is not going to get fixed. That's the real problem with workarounds. As you said – you are hiding the problem. And it can feel horrible to not hide the problem, to use your metaphor, to let it bleed. And it's why one of the things that I have done a lot in organizations where we're we're working on systemic issues, and of course, as soon as we go in, we discover all of the workarounds that are allowing things to function as they can that that nobody wants to continue to do, and they feel like they have to. And whenever I ask questions about it, it's like, 'Well, if I did this, then that would cause this pain.' And I always tell them, you're not causing the problem, you're revealing that it's there. You're creating an opportunity now, for the group, for the system, for the organization to go, 'Oh, we thought that this was being handled by formal processes, by a good way of working...' The larger group is not aware. And that can be very, very, very painful and frustrating at first, but when it group gets good at that, when we stop hiding problems, we can develop the ability to actually address these things to make things function well again."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"There are all sorts of things that we do, there are all sorts of things that we know, there are all sorts of things that are sort of wrapped up around us, that cause us to lose sight of how we are actually showing up in the world, what the actual impact of our actions are. And it can be really problematic, particularly when you're in an organization, and you have any sort of structural authority. You have a footprint, you cast a shadow – as a friend of mine says – and not understanding what that shadow is, what the shape of that is... When the light is in front of you, and it's being cast behind you, and you don't turn around to look at it, you're not going to notice it. And that's really important to get curious about. What are the things about yourself that you are not seeing? And how can you find out about those?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"This is the delegation game, right? Where you say, 'Yeah, okay, committee, go do that thing.' Sometimes it's a pretty straightforward thing. 'Hey, go sign up for a bank account.' Okay, that's probably going to go pretty well because there's not a lot to that. But 'Hey, dive into these documents and rewrite them...' Well, there was a reason they needed to be rewritten. [...] When you get deeply into the work, you start thinking. You see things, and you notice things, and you have awarenesses, and you sort of confront the problems. Like, this is what wasn't working. So if the voting procedure wasn't working before, we start thinking about it. We start noticing. And that process can happen for that subgroup over many hours or many weeks, often. So there's this sort of development that happens, and processing that happens. And they've done all the work. And each piece for them sort of fell like dominoes, right like this leads to this leads to this. There weren't any big steps for them. And the obvious conclusion is here. And so okay, we've done our work now, just like you asked us to, and we're bringing it back to the group. And the group is like, from here to here with none of the dominoes. Just this huge jump and the group is like, 'Whoa, what happened here?' Partly because they haven't thought deeply about it – because they weren't asked to, that wasn't their role. And partly because the group that did the work didn't notice sort of how many steps they were taking and bring everybody along."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"I think that change goes more effectively when we give more people opportunities to provide input around exactly how the change will happen. And that's something that I think organizations struggle with sometimes where they go, 'Well, this change is just going to happen regardless.' And it's like, "Well, the fundamental thing might be happening..." For example, I worked in a company that went public. We went through an IPO. That was gonna happen from day one. The founders were clear about that was a thing they were going to do. But we got to be intentional about how was that process going to affect us. What were we going to do? How did we want to be in the presence of that change? And I think that's one of the things where we can really engage skillfully with change."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Because although we'd love you all to be able to think ahead and do this well the first time, in fact, it is a thing we mostly learn by stubbing our toes and bloodying our noses. So when you're in that, 'How did we decide?' that kind of place is a really good time to think about: Do we know our decision making processes? Do we think about our options? Do we have choices to use for different kinds of decisions? And is it clear which one we use when and how we travel through that process? And transparency about process does wonders for increasing the sort of tranquility of a group, the cohesiveness of a group."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"I think that can be discouraging, particularly when I see groups that say, 'Okay, we want to be collaborative.' So we adopt Agile, we adopt Sociocracy, we adopt a thing, and we really study it, and we learn it and it is better. Like clearly we are and it is better. But we're not getting what the pamphlet said. We're not getting what we thought we were gonna get. We don't have this beautiful flow. We don't all love coming to work every day. We still have conflict. We still have disagreements. We still get stuck on things. Why is that?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"When we enter a collaborative space, and we bring a piece of ourselves, we bring some work that we've done, we bring ideas that we've done, we bring a vision or a plan or a mission, but we bring this piece that ours because we've done it, and it belongs to us, or ours because we hold it deeply in our hearts, or there's lots of ways that they're that it's mine. But I arrived with this piece that's mine into a project that I want to be collaborative, that is a team project. That that's where I'm going with it. And so I thought it was worth perhaps exploring today, what do we do with the part that's Mine when I enter into a thing that's Ours?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"We're adopting sociocracy, we're working with agile, we're starting with consensus, something like that. We're saying we're going to be much more equal in our participation equal in our influence, equal in how we show up, and so we're not going to have that dominating leader role anymore. And yet there were skills and tasks and roles and needs that came as part of that package. So if we've said we're not going to have that dominant role, how do we still get the sort of visioning, motivating, connecting, directing, agenda-setting – whatever were the pieces that were attached to that leadership role? How do we get those tasks done if we don't have that person in that role anymore?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"Failure is such a juicy topic and such an emotionally loaded word. I think what's interesting is that in a lot of the work that we do, we talk about wanting to be in a space where it's safe to fail, where we can learn from failure. I think in working with groups around that, we struggle sometimes working through people's relationship to the concept of failure. So we wanted to spend some time exploring what that is and what that really means and how it shows up."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"It still is that fundamental problem of finding the source of the problem in relationships isn't the same as finding the solution. What we're pointing to here is that if you're looking for whose fault it is, you may sort of build up your ego, in some ways you may make some points in some kind of corporate cultures that we'd rather you weren't in, but maybe you are – that happens. But what we think is not likely to happen if you're chasing the "whose fault is it?" question is that you'll build stronger connections or better working relationships."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"I love the way you phrased that: 'Would you be willing to share?' And that's not just words. It actually matters because you're asking someone to be vulnerable enough to sort of expose their woundedness – to expose this is the thing that hurt me, and that is a vulnerable thing. And sometimes they're going to say no. Sometimes it really is the case that all of your best intentions, doing all the things we're recommending here, just drag them further into someplace they don't want to go and make the harm more. So I love that frame of, 'Would you be willing to share with me?' That has to come with 'and they might say no, and that has to be totally fine.' As uncomfortable as I am that I didn't get to repair, or I didn't get to do something to make it up, or I didn't get to try and fix it, that's my discomfort. And if that's the thing that that person wants most or that they're most comfortable with, then what I do to repair this is live with my own discomfort that I didn't get to repair it."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"One of the challenges is recognizing when the thing that has helped us get to where we are isn't useful for the context that we're in anymore. It was useful and things have now changed, so we need to change what we're doing. It's a thing that would work for us in another situation and probably will work for us in another situation in the future –and it's stopped working now. When it is something that's so comfortable, so routine, such a habit for us that can be really, really hard to see, much less admit."
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
"If you want to guarantee that people will reject this change that you're trying to make, the best thing you could do would be to require them, to pressure them, to sell them, to shame them. Those would be really good ways of engaging whatever it is that already is alive in them that says that they don't want to be part of this. Inviting them is useful, and also being ready for the fact that there will be people who don't come, who don't participate, who don't buy in, who don't do things perfectly – to embrace that reality and to identify "What can we start doing that doesn't require everyone?" What doesn't require a solution that addresses every possible case for things that might come up? How do we just get the ball rolling and start to build momentum?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
Karen & Paul discuss: "Can they say 'no'?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
Karen & Paul discuss: "What if my consultant is wrong?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
Karen & Paul discuss: "Do we have to have this conversation?
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
Karen & Paul discuss: "How do I get them to do what I want?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
Karen & Paul discuss: "What does _____ mean to us?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
Karen & Paul discuss: "Why don't we name differences?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
Karen & Paul discuss: "Why isn't this working?"
Listen on the website and read the transcript
Watch this episode on YouTube
Karen & Paul discuss: "What do we mean by employing differences?"
Watch this episode on YouTube
Karen & Paul discuss: "How we know that we're collaborating?"
Watch this episode on YouTube
Karen and Paul discuss "What happens when we can't agree?"
Watch this episode on YouTube
Karen & Paul discuss: "How does structure impact behavior?"
Watch this episode on YouTube
Karen & Paul discuss "What are we tolerating without noticing what it's costing us?"
Watch this Episode on YouTube
Karen & Paul discuss "What do you do when you don't know?"
Watch this episode on YouTube
Karen & Paul discuss "What does it take to disagree well?"
Watch this episode on YouTube