The Former Lawyer Podcast: Recent Episodes
Sarah Cottrell
Do you hate working as a lawyer? Are you an unhappy lawyer who wants to leave the law, but isn't sure what to do next? Do your family and friends think you're crazy for wanting to leave the law, or are you too afraid to tell them you don't want to be a lawyer? The Former Lawyer Podcast is for you! Each week, host Sarah Cottrell interviews a different former lawyer who has left the law behind. Hear inspiring stories about how these former lawyers are thriving and found their way to careers and lives they love.
Dan Lemon thought Biglaw was the peak—until the job started crushing his mental health. What looked like success on paper was making his life unlivable.
In this conversation, Dan shares how he went from corporate litigation to a more meaningful career in family law. We talk about the lies lawyers are told about prestige, the realities of mental health in the profession, and what it actually takes to build something better.
Whether you’re thinking about leaving law or just changing how you practice it, Dan’s story is proof that you’re not trapped.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/272
Biglaw has a cowardice problem, and it’s more visible than ever. In this episode, Sarah Cottrell breaks down how toxic law firm culture grooms and rewards leaders who prioritize self-preservation over real change.
From the recent DEI rollbacks to everyday office dynamics, Sarah explains why cowardice thrives in Biglaw and how it impacts more than just the lawyers trapped inside these firms. If you’re feeling stuck in a toxic workplace or questioning whether it’s time to leave, this conversation will give you clarity—and your first steps toward getting out.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/271
Sarah shares why she donates to The Legal Accountability Project, a nonprofit working to bring transparency to the judicial clerkship system.
She talks about the power judges hold, how law schools often ignore bad behavior, and why more information—not more prestige—is what law students really need.
If you've ever wondered why the legal profession protects its own at the expense of young lawyers, this episode offers a candid look at what needs to change.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/270
Reddit and Fishbowl can feel like the only places lawyers can be honest about how bad it really is. But even in these “safe” spaces, the lawyer bubble shows up.
In this episode, Sarah shares what she sees in these anonymous forums, why the advice often misses the mark, and how to recognize when toxic thinking is disguised as tough love.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/269.
Sarah is celebrating five years of The Former Lawyer Collab—and reflecting on what it’s taught her about helping lawyers leave the law. In this episode, she shares the behind-the-scenes of building the program, the patterns she’s seen in the hundreds of lawyers she’s worked with, and why the first step is always about knowing yourself better—not just updating your resume.
She also talks about the importance of community when you’re making a big change, the real-life stories that keep inspiring her, and why it’s never too early to start exploring your options if you know law isn’t your forever career. If you’ve been sitting on the fence, this episode will give you a nudge and a whole lot of clarity.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/238
Lawyer and certified ADHD coach Annie Little returns to talk with Sarah about executive function, ADHD in the legal profession, and why so many lawyers struggle with time, organization, and burnout.
They break down how ADHD brains actually work, what interest-based motivation means, and how understanding your brain can help you build a career that works for you—not against you.
Whether you're diagnosed, undiagnosed, or just curious, this conversation offers practical insight and validation for lawyers navigating ADHD at any stage.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/267
Is DEI really the problem in Biglaw? Sarah doesn’t think so, and she’s not alone. In this episode, she breaks down why blaming diversity, equity, and inclusion for the profession’s longstanding issues is not only inaccurate, but dangerously out of touch.
If you’re tired of the gaslighting and performative change in legal spaces, this conversation will help you feel seen, and remind you that you’re not imagining the disconnect between what firms say and how they actually operate.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/266
When Laura Markham suddenly lost her husband, everything changed—including how she viewed her legal career. In this episode, Laura shares her path from real estate litigation to finding a more flexible, values-aligned role after loss. She talks about parenting through grief, rethinking the billable hour, and how the Collab helped her reconnect with what she actually wanted from work and life.
If you’ve been wondering whether it’s time for a change—or if you’re just trying to keep going during a hard season—Laura’s story will remind you that there’s no one “right” path forward, and going back to something familiar might just be the best next step.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/265
Feeling overwhelmed, unmotivated, or like you're barely keeping up? You’re not alone. In this episode, Sarah shares a simple but powerful reframe for lawyers who are just trying to make it through right now. If you’ve caught yourself saying you’re doing “the bare minimum,” this conversation will help you shift that narrative and offer yourself more grace.
Whether you're thinking about leaving the law or just trying to get through the week, Sarah reminds us that surviving a hard season isn’t a failure—it’s a sign you’re human. If you’re struggling with what to prioritize, feeling stretched thin, or questioning your next steps, this episode is a grounding reminder that taking care of what’s essential is enough.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/264
Are you questioning whether practicing law is really the right path for you? You're not alone—and you're not wrong for feeling that way. In this episode, Sarah talks about why so many lawyers feel stuck in careers that no longer fit, and why changing your mind isn't a failure—it's a sign of growth.
If you've ever felt guilty for wanting something different, or worried that shifting directions means you made a mistake, this conversation will help reframe those thoughts. Learn why it's normal to outgrow a legal career, and how to start thinking about what's next with more clarity and less pressure.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/263
If you feel like all you do is complain about your job, you’re not alone. Many lawyers reach a point where they’re exhausted, not just by their work, but by how much they talk about how miserable it makes them.
In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell addresses what happens when you reach that breaking point. She explains why you don’t have to wait until you can leave your job to start making a change, and how taking small steps now can set you up for the future, whether you’re leaving in a few months or a few years.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/262
On today’s podcast, Sarah is chatting with a familiar guest who has been on the podcast several times. It’s her husband, Ed Cottrell. They met in law school and graduated at the same time.
Ed’s path took a different route than Sarah’s, and he now works in the tech field after leaving law. Today's conversation explores the common interest of many lawyers Sarah speaks with to explore jobs in tech. If you’ve been curious about getting a tech job or want to learn more about Ed’s journey.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/261
Many lawyers contemplating leaving the profession assume the process is complicated. The reality? It’s actually very simple. But that doesn’t mean it’s easy.
In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell breaks down the difference between something being simple but difficult versus complicated but easy, and how this applies to leaving the law.
The truth is, figuring out what’s next isn’t complex, but doing the work to make a change is hard. That’s why she created The Former Lawyer Collab because even though the steps are clear, having support and guidance can make all the difference.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/260
If you’re thinking about leaving the law but feel stuck, ask yourself this question. Who are you waiting for permission from?
Many lawyers aren’t just worried about logistics. They feel like they need approval. They worry about how their family, friends, or partner will react. They feel the need to justify their decision and have others validate that leaving is the right move.
But the only permission you need is your own.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/259
Sarah Cottrell talks with Amisha DeYoung-Dominguez, a former lawyer who transitioned into public service, on this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast.
Amisha, now a congressional staffer, shares her winding journey through law school, legal aid, and government work—ultimately realizing that practicing law wasn’t the right fit.
Her story highlights the struggle many lawyers face, the pressure to stay in the profession despite clear signs it isn’t working. Through The Former Lawyer Collab, Amisha found the clarity and support she needed to make the leap into a fulfilling new career.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/258
Many former lawyers who stepped away from their careers to be stay-at-home parents eventually find themselves wondering how to re-enter the workforce—without going back to practicing law.
On this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, host Sarah Cottrell addresses this exact challenge, breaking down the key steps for making the transition while avoiding the pressure to return to legal practice.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/257
In this re-released episode, Former Lawyer Collab members share the biggest surprises they’ve encountered while figuring out what’s next. From discovering unexpected support from other former lawyers to realizing just how much law school and legal practice shaped their identity, these insights reveal what happens when you step outside the legal bubble. If you're considering leaving the law, these reflections might surprise you too.
Sarah also shares an update on Former Lawyer’s commitment to donating 1% of its gross revenue to the Equal Justice Initiative (EJI) and an additional 1% to the ACLU. If you'd like to support these organizations, you can find more information here:
Equal Justice Initiative (EJI)
ACLU
Learn more about the Former Lawyer Collab: formerlawyer.com/collab
In this re-released episode, Former Lawyer Collab members share the biggest myths they believed about leaving the law—myths that held them back from making a change. From the fear of being seen as a failure to the belief that legal work has to be miserable, these insights highlight how shifting your mindset can open up new possibilities.
Sarah also shares an update on Former Lawyer’s commitment to donating 1% of its gross revenue to the Equal Justice Initiative (EJI) and an additional 1% to the ACLU. If you'd like to support these organizations, you can find more information here:
Equal Justice Initiative (EJI)
ACLU
Learn more about the Former Lawyer Collab: formerlawyer.com/collab
This week, I'm re-releasing an episode featuring Former Lawyer Collab members sharing the simple yet transformative realizations that helped them move forward in their journey out of the law. From understanding their values to accepting that it’s okay to want something different, these stories highlight the small mindset shifts that can make a huge impact.
Sarah also shares an update about Former Lawyer’s commitment to donating 1% of its gross revenue to the Equal Justice Initiative (EJI) and, moving forward, an additional 1% to the ACLU.
If you'd like to join in supporting these organizations, you can find more information on their sites.
Equal Justice Initiative (EJI)
ACLU
Learn more about the Former Lawyer Collab: formerlawyer.com/collab
In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell gets real about why so many Millennials feel stuck in the pursuit of success. As an elder Millennial herself, she unpacks the pressures lawyers face to maintain a certain lifestyle or salary—pressures that often come from family expectations, societal norms, and internalized beliefs about what success “should” look like.
Sarah shares personal insights, client stories, and some hard questions to help you rethink whether the life you’re chasing actually aligns with your values. She also dives into how therapy can play a game-changing role in breaking free from the “success trap” and building a life that works for you.
If you’ve ever found yourself feeling trapped by career expectations or the idea that you’re supposed to suffer to succeed, this episode is for you. You don’t have to settle for burnout—there’s a way forward.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/256
Many lawyers worry that leaving the law for the corporate world won’t fix their work-life balance struggles. In this episode, Sarah explores why corporate jobs aren’t all the same, how to identify workplaces that align with your values, and why you’re not doomed to hate every job you take.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/255
Lawyers often feel pressured to craft the perfect IRAC-style argument to justify leaving the law, but that’s not necessary. In this episode, Sarah explores why trusting your intuition is key, how to navigate conversations about your decision, and why you don’t need to convince anyone else to validate your choice.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/254
Leaving the law starts with understanding your values. In this episode, Sarah explains why taking a deep dive into your values is the critical first step for any lawyer considering a career change. She shares how identifying what truly matters to you can uncover the root of your dissatisfaction and guide you toward a career that aligns with your priorities.
Whether you’re unsure about your next step or ready to make a move, this conversation offers actionable insights to help you get started on your path to a more fulfilling future. Tune in to learn why values are the foundation of Sarah’s framework for lawyers ready to leave the law behind.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/253
In today’s episode, Sarah kicks off the new year with an update on how you can work with her in 2025. If you’re starting the year thinking, ‘I can’t keep doing this,’ and you know you don’t want to be in the same place next year, this episode is for you. Sarah breaks down the options available to help you leave the law behind and create the change you’re ready for.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/252
This episode includes an important content warning for discussions of narcissism, narcissistic abuse, self-harm, and suicidality.
This week on The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell welcomes back her client Kelcey Baker for a powerful conversation about the distressingly common experience among lawyers of wishing for a minor injury—like being hit by a bus—just to get a break from work.
Kelcey and Sarah dive deep into the toxic environments in the legal profession that normalize extreme stress and emotional distress while discouraging vulnerability and self-care. They explore the systemic issues in law firms that create these harmful dynamics and why addressing the environment, not the individual, is critical.
If you’ve ever felt trapped in an environment where taking a real break feels impossible, this conversation will resonate deeply and offer hope. Tune in to hear more about why these feelings arise, how they can be addressed, and the importance of prioritizing your well-being.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/236
Previously, Lauren Ascher was on the podcast to discuss accommodations for lawyers with ADHD. It’s a good segue into an important conversation about disclosing ADHD and other mental health issues to your law firm. It’s no secret that there is a high incidence rate among lawyers for anxiety, depression, panic disorders, and other issues.
In the United States, you are entitled to certain accommodations legally for disorders covered under the ADA. But a real challenge is deciding whether or not you will disclose your ADHD, anxiety, or depression to HR at your workplace. It can feel really daunting to think about disclosing something like this at work.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/205
For countless reasons, December can be a pretty rough month for lawyer's mental health. So for the next couple of weeks, we're going to have some re-releases of some episodes in the podcast dealing with mental health. So there will be three episodes.
This first episode will be how to take a mental health leave of absence from your firm, and I'm joined by guest Megan Nogasky.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/176
On today’s podcast episode, Sarah clarifies a question she often hears when she tells people about the work she does: “Do all the lawyers who you work with end up leaving law?” There is a sense that she is trying to convince people to leave their careers as lawyers and move on to something else, and she wants to answer that question and chat about it.
A fundamental belief that Sarah has is that people are the experts on their own experience. She is not trying to convince anyone of anything. There are moments when she gets especially fired up about some of the problematic parts of the legal profession, but she is just sharing her experiences and allowing a place for others to do the same. This podcast was created for lawyers to hear someone talking about something they recognize.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/251
Lilly Ghahremani knew from her first day of law school that she had made a mistake, but like so many lawyers, she kept going, earning her degree and even passing the bar. What came next wasn’t the traditional legal path but an unexpected journey into the publishing industry. Today, Lilly is a literary agent with over 20 years of experience, co-founder of Full Circle Literary, and an advocate for authors navigating the complex world of publishing.
In this episode, Lilly shares how her legal background helped her thrive in a nontraditional career and why so many lawyers are drawn to publishing. She talks about the realities of life as a literary agent, the skills that truly transfer from legal practice, and how lawyers can tap into their creative passions. Whether you’re dreaming of leaving law or simply curious about the publishing world, Lilly’s story will inspire you to explore new possibilities.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/250
Struggling with the fear of leaving law behind?
This week, Sarah unpacks the sunk cost fallacy—a common mental block for lawyers considering a career change. She explores why we tend to overvalue past investments and undervalue the cost of staying in an unhealthy profession.
You’ll also learn why leaving law doesn’t mean your legal experience is wasted. If you’ve ever felt stuck weighing the pros and cons of walking away, this episode is for you.
Download Sarah’s free guide, First Steps to Leaving the Law, at formerlawyer.com/first.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/249
On today’s podcast episode, Sarah chats with Dan Branagan. He is a member of the Collab and a former lawyer who now works as a data analyst. They discuss how his journey to escape the legal grind and his process of finding other roles that might work for him using the program's framework.
Let’s dive in and learn about Dan and his journey.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/248
In this episode, Sarah dives into how toxic workplaces—especially law firms—can lead to deep-rooted self-doubt and self-gaslighting. She breaks down the ways negative environments distort our sense of self-worth and confidence, making it feel impossible to see a way out.
For those who feel trapped in a cycle of self-doubt, Sarah shares insights into how leaving a toxic legal environment can help you reconnect with your strengths and reclaim your confidence. If you're questioning whether it's time to move on, this episode is a must-listen.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/247
In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, host Sarah Cottrell talks with David Sazant, a former litigator who transitioned from practicing law to becoming a therapist. David shares how he recognized that his legal career was not in line with his personal values and explains the process he went through to make the leap into mental health. For those considering a career outside of the legal profession, especially in therapy, David’s story offers valuable insights and inspiration.
Throughout their conversation, David discusses the challenges he faced as a lawyer, the sense of unfulfillment that led him to leave litigation, and the importance of living in alignment with one's values. This episode provides an honest look at what it takes to make a significant career shift, making it a must-listen for any lawyer feeling stuck and seeking a new path.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/246
In this episode, Sarah dives into the toxic environment many law firms create by pushing junior associates to take responsibility for generating work they have no control over.
She exposes how leadership fails to support their teams, leading to stress and anxiety for those just starting their legal careers. If you’re tired of being blamed for a lack of billables, this episode is for you.
Plus, learn how to take action and explore new career options.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/245
In this episode, Sarah revisits a conversation with her client, Adrian Hern, who shares her journey through The Collab and the Collab Plus One-on-One Program.
Adrian opens up about her experience as a lawyer stuck in a toxic work environment, how she found her way to a new career, and the life-changing results, including a 40% salary increase.
If you're worried that leaving the law means sacrificing your income or identity, this episode is a must-listen to see how making a change is not only possible but can lead to even greater success.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/212
Have you ever wondered why all your hard work at the firm isn't paying off the way you expected?
In this episode, Sarah exposes the myth of meritocracy in law firms and how it fuels imposter syndrome for even the most accomplished lawyers. She reveals the hidden reasons behind why your efforts might be going unrecognized and shares how you can break free from the toxic environment that's holding you back.
If you're tired of questioning your worth and ready to see the truth, hit play and reclaim your confidence.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/244
In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, host Sarah Cottrell shares a conversation with Annie Little about disclosing ADHD and other neurodivergent or mental health conditions in the workplace, specifically within Biglaw.
As October is ADHD Awareness Month, Sarah highlights the challenges lawyers face when considering disclosure and the systemic issues in law firms that often fail to provide adequate support.
Tune in for an insightful discussion about the complexities of navigating legal careers with ADHD and the importance of creating supportive work environments.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/207
In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell tackles a topic that has been coming up in many of her conversations with clients: the overwhelming feeling that you just don’t want to work anymore.
If you’ve ever felt like you hate working and can’t imagine enjoying any job, especially after working in a toxic legal environment, this episode is for you. Sarah discusses how burnout, particularly in lawyers, can make you feel like you’re broken, but she’s here to tell you—you’re not. She explains why these feelings are common and how recovery is possible.
Drawing on her experiences working with lawyers in her Collab program, Sarah highlights the importance of giving yourself time and space to recover from burnout.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/243
If you are looking for support between the self-paced nature of the Collab and working with Sara one-on-one, then what you are looking for is the guided track.
The Guided Track is a live eight weeks small group intensive for lawyers who want to jumpstart their search for an alternative career, starting on October 4th, and running through November 22nd.
Enroll at formerlawyer.com/guidedtrack
In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell talks with Victoria Collier, founder of Quid Pro Quo Law, about the process of preparing a law firm for sale. Victoria shares her own journey, from building her practice to successfully selling it, and offers critical insights into the steps lawyers can take to make their firms scalable and attractive to buyers. From establishing processes and delegating tasks to cleaning up financials, Victoria breaks down the key factors that make a law firm a valuable asset.
Whether you’re a law firm owner thinking about your long-term exit strategy or simply curious about what goes into selling a legal practice, this episode is packed with actionable advice. Learn how to position your firm for sale, maximize its value, and set yourself up for a successful transition beyond the law.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/242
If you are looking for support between the self-paced nature of the Collab and working with Sara one-on-one, then what you are looking for is the guided track.
The Guided Track is a live eight weeks small group intensive for lawyers who want to jumpstart their search for an alternative career, starting on October 4th, and running through November 22nd.
Enroll at formerlawyer.com/guidedtrack
The Former Lawyer framework has recently received a glow-up, and this podcast episode covers all the fun updates.
Sarah has a few things that stuck out to her and would be the most helpful to anyone considering becoming a former lawyer. She covers those items in this episode to highlight them for all the podcast listeners considering joining.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/241
If you are looking for support between the self-paced nature of the Collab and working with Sara one-on-one, then what you are looking for is the guided track.
The Guided Track is a live eight weeks small group intensive for lawyers who want to jumpstart their search for an alternative career, starting on October 4th, and running through November 22nd.
Enroll at formerlawyer.com/guidedtrack
Today’s podcast episode features a conversation between Sarah and a member of the Collab, Liza Hanks. Liza made a career transition out of practicing law after 22 years, and they discussed how the Collab played a role in her transition and decision-making process.
This conversation is helpful for anyone considering making their transition out of law and looking for some assistance in the process. The Collab has undergone some fantastic updates recently, and it’s a perfect time to join. Read on to learn how it helped Liza ask the right questions.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/240
If you are looking for support between the self-paced nature of the Collab and working with Sara one-on-one, then what you are looking for is the guided track.
The Guided Track is a live eight weeks small group intensive for lawyers who want to jumpstart their search for an alternative career, starting on October 4th, and running through November 22nd.
Enroll at formerlawyer.com/guidedtrack
You may have worked in a workplace or more than one legal workplace where they said that they had a no-asshole rule.
Clearly, there are many people who have worked in similar workplaces because this episode is one of the most downloaded episodes. Again, it's one of the ones I hear about the most from people because there is so much agreement with the fact that the no-asshole rule is, in fact, a myth. Here are my thoughts about the no-asshole rule.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/139
Learn the framework that I use with my clients to help them figure out what it is that they want to do that is not practicing law, in a brand new live masterclass on Friday, September 6th.
Reserve your seat now at formerlawyer.com/masterclass.
The next episode in our summer re-release series is Burnout is a Feature, Not a Bug. This is one of the things that I honestly think is the most important for you to realize if you are working in a toxic workplace, if you're working in a large law firm, or in Biglaw.
Burnout is a feature of the way that work is organized in these organizations, it is not something that inexplicably happens that you could have some of life hacked your way out of.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/93
Learn the framework that I use with my clients to help them figure out what it is that they want to do that is not practicing law, in a brand new live masterclass on Friday, September 6th.
Reserve your seat now at formerlawyer.com/masterclass.
I originally recorded the episode Your Job Should Not Make You Cry back in the very early days of lockdown when I was still editing the podcast myself and needed to be able to edit some shorter episodes, which ultimately I discovered was a happy accident because this episode is one of the most popular episodes of the podcast.
It is one of the most downloaded. It comes up all the time. I hear all the time from people who have sent it to friends and coworkers because apparently there are a lot of us who need to be reminded that your job should not make you cry. If that doesn't tell you something about our profession, I don't know what will. Here is the next episode in our summer re-release series, Your Job Should Not Make You Cry.
The next episode in our summer re-release series is one of the episodes from our Collab member question series. If you've listened to this series before, you know that I asked a bunch of different people in the Collab to answer some questions about their experience, what they've learned, the things that they have taken away from the process of figuring out what it is that they want to do that isn't practicing law.
This series gets mentioned to me very frequently when people reach out to me. So I wanted to bring it back and highlight it.
In each episode, you are going to hear a number of people who are answering the same question. In this episode, the question that people will be answering is, “What is one thing that you resisted doing in this process of figuring out what it is that they wanted to do that isn't practicing law, that they wish they had done sooner?”
Listen to the rest of the Collab Member Series
Former Lawyers Share an Obvious Thing that was Transformative
Myths Former Lawyers Believed Before Leaving the Law
What Has Been the Biggest Surprise for Former Lawyers in the Collab?
What Would Former Lawyer Collab Members Tell Themselves Five Years Ago
Why These Former Lawyers Decided to Join the Guided Track
Next up in this summer series of the most popular episodes of The Former Lawyer Podcast is an episode that I did about malignant narcissism in the legal profession and specifically signs of malignant narcissism because no surprise, narcissists are very common in our profession and a lot of the things that you experience in your legal workplace that seem honestly a bit crazy making are frequently the result of working with a narcissist or multiple narcissists or being in a narcissistic system.
In this episode that you're about to listen to, I talked a bit about what the characteristics even are of narcissism and in particular, malignant narcissism, and how to identify it.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/127
The reason that I recorded this episode originally is that so often when lawyers are thinking about leaving, one of the things that holds them back from leaving especially if they work in a law firm is that other people are going to look down on them and think that they're making a terrible decision, et cetera.
I think it's critical to remember, as I talk about in this episode, especially if you are not wanting to be in a law firm long term, that not fitting in is actually a good thing.
Let's get into this episode, which is one of the most popular episodes of the podcast.
Today we're kicking off a summer series with episodes of the podcast that have been released over the past, well, honestly, almost five years the podcast has been going. These episodes that we're going to be re-releasing are all episodes that have been extremely popular, they're some of the most downloaded, or they're some of the ones that I hear the most about from people.
This first episode that we're releasing the series is the first of a previous series that we did, which was based on the book Bullshit Jobs. This is a series that I did with Annie Little, one of my good friends, who's also a former lawyer and a career coach.
Complete Bullshit Jobs Series
Is Being A Lawyer A Bullshit Job?
The Misery of Ambiguity and Forced Pretense in Law Firms
The Artificial Power Structure and Feeling Helpless as a Lawyer with Annie Little
The Misery of Not Feeling Entitled to One’s Misery as a Lawyer
The Misery of Knowing That One Is Doing Harm as a Lawyer
In today’s episode, Sarah addresses a common question that lawyers who are looking to leave their positions often ask:
Will you need a bridge job to make the transition?
Sara answers by first discussing the two types of bridge jobs and what lawyers need to consider when answering this question for themselves.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/239
Today’s podcast episode features a conversation between Sarah and someone who is not actually a former lawyer. Tiffany Rogers is a therapist based in Chicago. She specializes in working with women in the corporate world, specifically Black women. With so much discussion about therapy on many podcast episodes, it’s great to feature a conversation with someone in that field.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/238
In today’s podcast episode, Sarah shares the hardest thing about leaving the law. She’s talked to many clients, peers, podcast guests, and people in her life; everyone encounters their own unique obstacles. However, the biggest thing keeping people from making a change is the practical reality.
Lawyers get stuck trying to figure out things on the front end, like reworking resumes or convincing someone they can work in a role other than a lawyer. People get stuck in the process of the practical things that get you a new job. This is the part that many assume will be the most challenging.
However, Sarah has found that the hardest thing about leaving the law is the emotional part.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/237
In today’s podcast episode, Sarah is chatting with Kelcey Baker, a returning guest.
Their conversation reviews why it isn’t normal to want a break from work so bad that you think about getting hit by a bus. Yes, that’s a common expression within lawyer networks.
There is a trigger warning because the conversation dives into narcissism, abuse, self-harm, and suicidal thoughts. It’s an important discussion if you’ve ever had thoughts like this flash through your mind.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/236
In today’s episode, Sarah offers important advice to listeners. While practicing law, she constantly thought about what she wanted to do outside the law. But then her brain would start telling her everything that would make it a bad fit and instantly become negative.
Lawyers are just trained to do this, and it’s important that you recognize that ahead of time.
Stop telling yourself that something isn’t going to work before you’ve actually spent any time looking into it. People start worrying about finances and skills they don’t think they have, and begin convincing themselves that it’s a bad idea.
Sarah calls this “Lawyering yourself.” You take an idea and then prematurely decide it’s impossible.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/235
Today’s podcast episode features a conversation between Sarah and Andre Ferrari. He practiced law for a few years before becoming a real estate developer.
Andre shares his career path and how he got to where he is today. It’s interesting to see how interested he’s always been in real estate and how that’s helped him transition between multiple roles.
Let’s dive into Andre’s story and advice.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/234
Summer has arrived! On today’s podcast, Sarah asks listeners the question, “How many vacations does your job have to ruin, cancel, impinge upon, or maybe make you not even plan before you decide enough is enough?” Many lawyers struggle to take vacations, and when they do, it’s a challenge to shut off work and enjoy themselves.
So many of the people Sarah speaks to face this challenge. They might travel somewhere new but feel like they are expected to remain connected and available to people at work. She knew there were partners senior to her who would go on vacation but still work six hours. If you love working on vacation, that’s great, but for most people, that’s not the case.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/233
Today’s podcast episode features another conversation with previous guest Annie Little. Sarah is chatting with her about thoughts and advice when it comes to finding a therapist as a lawyer.
They discuss the differences between Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and share their experiences and observations.
If you have been thinking about seeking out a therapist or have experienced this process, this conversation will be helpful.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/232
In today’s podcast, Sarah discusses how to know when it’s the right time to leave law. Many people listening are grappling with this question, and often, when they ask it, they are looking for an external answer. There is no external answer. You are the only person that can decide when the time is right.
The reality is that you need to ask yourself two questions to know if now is the right time for YOU to leave the law.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/231
Today’s podcast episode features a returning guest, Kelcey Baker, talking to Sarah. There is a content warning because they are discussing a recent story about a junior Biglaw partner in the UK passing away during an acute mental health episode.
They discuss mental health issues and suicide. The story is important because it highlights some of the issues seen within the legal profession and helps others feel seen, so let’s dive in.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/230
Today’s podcast episode is an important reminder every lawyer needs to hear.
Sarah reminds listeners that nothing about your job is as important as you and your emotional, mental, and physical health. For lawyers, it’s easy to feel their value as human beings is basically in job performance.
It’s tough for lawyers to feel like they exist outside the lawyer bubble. Working a lot and being chronically sleep-deprived keeps your nervous system in a state that makes it hard to maintain perspective.
The systems are designed to cause you to lose perspective, especially in large firms. The system benefits when you are all caught up in your own performance for the organization.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/229
Sarah sees many clients who change careers within the law, like becoming in-house lawyers, but at the end of the day, they are still lawyers. When people think that switching to entertainment law will be a fun and exciting change, it’s important to step back and ask some more questions.
Today’s podcast episode features a conversation with Jordan Nahmias. Jordan used to practice law as an entertainment lawyer and is now a coach and strategist in Toronto, Canada. He talks about his experience and his path out of law. Many people consider exploring this area when thinking about leaving the law.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/228
In today’s podcast episode, Sarah addresses a question that many people start asking themselves when the economy is unstable: Is now really the right time to consider leaving the law?
Layoffs and challenging circumstances can add an added layer of stress and concern when it comes to changing industries and leaving your job. Sarah shares some thoughts and advice about these concerns and questions.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/227
In today’s podcast episode, Sarah chats with one of her one-on-one clients, Ann Marie Cowdrey.
She has had a lot of experience working for regional and international law firms throughout her career. She hit a rough patch and thought it was time for a chance, so she started working with Sarah.
Today, she’s sharing her experience in law and how she flipped things around.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/226
Many lawyers find themselves asking, “Am I depressed, or am I burnt out?” This comes up when they are thinking about leaving the law, and it’s not a new topic on the podcast. In the episode where Sarah spoke to Ilona Salmons, they did a deep dive into burnout and what it is. Mental health is a common topic brought up in the Former Lawyer community, and many lawyers deal with misery by intellectualizing things. Today, Sarah is revisiting this topic and sharing a few important thoughts.
Sarah often talks about therapy on the podcast. It is extremely helpful if you feel burned out or depressed. Engage a qualified mental health therapist to work with. They can help you evaluate what’s going on in your mind in your life with some objectivity and clinical expertise.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/225
On today’s podcast episode, Sarah chats with Lynley Ogilvie about her career pivot. She left her job as a lawyer to become a landscape designer. The conversation was exciting, and her path was unique compared to other guests on the podcast. Lynley lives just outside of Washington, DC, and she has her own landscape design firm.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/224
Today’s podcast topic was sparked by a recent call for the Guided Track Sarah is facilitating this spring. This program is designed to assist lawyers in navigating their career paths and offers a safe space for self-reflection. It helps individuals determine if leaving the law is the right choice for them and guides them toward their next steps. The program fosters a close-knit community where participants can share their experiences, exchange ideas, and support each other through the process, providing a sense of camaraderie and accountability.
The discussion centered around a common yet often unspoken experience of guilt when one doesn’t enjoy being a lawyer. This feeling of guilt can be pervasive, making one feel like they’re complaining, even when they perceive their situation to be better than others. Sarah has talked about this before on the podcast, so obviously, it’s a topic that comes up often and is important to re-address.
Today’s podcast episode focuses on what it’s like to work in law with chronic illnesses. Emily Whelden is a former lawyer who now works at Dixon Life Coaching, mostly with clients have ADHD and other chronic illnesses. Many podcast listeners have requested this conversation, and today it's happening.
She is chatting with Sarah about her experience leaving the law and the subject of chronic illnesses.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/222
Lawyers expect to follow a perfectly laid-out path. It’s natural. When the next step in any journey isn’t clear, it feels like something is wrong. In today’s podcast episode, Sarah talks about moments when you feel like you’re having an existential crisis, but that doesn’t mean you are doing anything wrong.
When you feel like you’re having an existential crisis, it might feel like you’re in a vacuum. If you want to join a group of like-minded individuals, join the Collab. Sarah created this group to make it easier to navigate the process and find community. It doesn’t mean you won’t still feel lost, but you’ll have others that understand what you’re going through.
It’s normal to feel like you’re having an existential crisis when working through the process of leaving the law. You are not doing anything wrong, and you aren’t alone. Keep going and seek out some people to talk to.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/221
On today’s podcast, Sarah is chatting with Adriana Paris. Adriana stopped practicing law after ten years and moved into a new role at a law firm. She is the director of professional development and legal recruiting for a regional law firm with about 100 lawyers.
In addition, she has a coaching business on the side where she helps lawyers with personal productivity, which helps them create time and space for themselves.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/182
Today’s podcast episode brings back a previous guest to update listeners. Aliza Shatzman previously appeared to talk with Sarah about The Legal Accountability Project.
She co-founded this project based on a nightmare clerkship scenario she faced and wanted to help lawyers find recourse if they find themselves in this situation.
She is sharing where things are today and the initiatives they’ve made progress on in the last year.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/219
After leaving law, former lawyers follow many career paths depending on their interests and skills. Today’s podcast episode features a conversation with Ashley Carlisle, the Chief Marketing Officer (CMO) of HyperDraft.
If you are considering marketing as an option after leaving the law, this podcast has some great information for you.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/218
Narcissism is a word that is often associated with lawyers for many reasons. On today’s podcast episode, Sarah is chatting with Kelcey Baker about the fact that many lawyers have relationships with narcissists. Narcissism is a topic that more people are discussing now, and part of the reason is that there is more awareness and understanding of what it is.
This episode includes a conversation about those who have grown up in a narcissistic daily or had a romantic or platonic relationship with a narcissist and how that might set them up for a later experience of functioning in a narcissistic system, like a law firm.
Narcissism plays a big role in the legal profession. Many individuals with narcissistic traits are drawn to the law and the legal system. This podcast has covered topics similar to this one in the past, like the episode about the signs of malignant narcissism in the legal profession and how to handle bullying in law firms. This pair has also worked together on an episode where you can hear more of Kelcey’s experience.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/217
On today’s podcast episode, Sarah is chatting with her client, Kelcey Baker. Kelcey joined the Collab and participated in the Guided Track, so she has all kinds of wisdom and insight to share about her decision to become a lawyer and then her decision to stop practicing law.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/216
The theme of today’s podcast episode is the idea that just because you can doesn’t mean you should. This advice was a central point to a recent keynote talk Sarah did at The Authentic Lawyer Summit, and it’s important for anyone leaving the law, but also lawyers who want to stay in law forever.
Sarah shared more about her background and how this advice applied to her life and has brought the topic to the podcast to share more with the listeners. Let’s dive in.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/215
Enrollment for the next Guided Track is open now. Learn more and reserve your spot.
Today’s podcast episode features Sarah’s conversation with Strawberry Nevill. After connecting through a mutual friend, Sarah invited Strawberry to come on to share their journey from working in public interest.
This area of law has its own challenges and can be very hard to walk away from. Strawberry spent about 15 years in and around the legal field, including three years as a practicing lawyer, so let’s dive in and learn more about their journey.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/214
Enrollment for the next Guided Track is open now. Learn more and reserve your spot.
On today’s podcast episode, Sarah is talking with a member of the Collab, Read. He shares his background story and how he decided that the Collab was the right fit for him while he was working to become a lawyer.
He finished law school about two and a half years ago but was already having doubts about his future in law.
Hear his story and how the Collab helped him discover other options.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/213
Today’s podcast episode features a client, Adrian Hern. She’s a member of the Collab and has also worked with Sarah one-on-one. You’ll get some insight into working with Sarah individually and how it’s structured.
Plus, you get to hear from a client who has gone through these conversations and hear some first-hand experience and advice about navigating legal burnout.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/212
In today’s episode, Sarah is back again with Annie Little discussing the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. It’s part of a series of podcast discussions diving into the miseries of a bullshit job. Today, it’s time to dive into the fourth and final misery that comes with bullshit jobs, knowing that one is doing harm as a lawyer. Go back and catch up if you missed the first three in this series.
The final misery covered in the book is the misery based on knowing that one is doing harm. The most obvious example of this as lawyers would be representing a person or entity, and they are asking you to do something that is itself harmful. While these situations may arise, people tend to be aware and can deal with the moral conflict.
In today’s episode, Sarah is back again with Annie Little discussing the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. It’s part of a series of podcast discussions diving into the miseries of a bullshit job, and today, it’s time to dive into the third misery that comes with bullshit jobs. The Misery of not feeling entitled to your misery as a lawyer.
If you missed the first two, go back and catch up.
In today’s episode, Sarah is back again with Annie Little discussing the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. It’s part of a series of podcast discussions, so check out the others before and after this one. Graeber gives four reasons why having a bullshit job feels so miserable.
Last week’s discussion was all about the first reason—ambiguity and forced pretense—catch up on that one first.
This podcast episode is part of the series where Sarah is chatting with Annie Little about the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. If you missed the first episode in this series, check that out first and learn the background of this series and more about Annie. This episode is about the misery of ambiguity and forced pretense, which is the first of four things Graeber identifies as an impact that having a bullshit job can have on you.
When it comes to ambiguity in law firms, the lack of transparency is the first thing that comes to mind for Annie. She points out that there should be a simple, straightforward path with clear instructions on each assignment and an obvious ladder to climb within the firm. In reality, there are so many hidden things that lawyers are left to just figure out on their own.
Sarah kicks off a new series on today’s podcast with Annie Little, another lawyer career coach. Annie has been on the podcast a few times in the past, like the episode on ADHD. She founded her company, JD Nation, and helps lawyers find better jobs, both in and out of law.
In this series, the two of them discuss the book Bullshit Jobs: A Theory by David Graeber and dive into some of the book’s observations. This first episode covers why you should care about this book and answer, “Is being a lawyer a bullshit job?”
On today’s podcast episode, Sarah is chatting with Heather Davies, another former lawyer.
Heather’s new career as a professional organizer is something that many listeners have messaged Sarah about, so they chat about her journey to become a lawyer and what led to her transition to a professional organizer.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/211
For this Thanksgiving week podcast, Sarah is sharing the three reasons why she’s grateful she made the choice to stop practicing law. Many lawyers who are considering making a change spend so much time thinking about everything that could go wrong.
It’s a big decision, but it’s also really important to think about what has led you to this moment and think about what you’ll gain.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/210
Today’s episode covers a statement that Sarah often hears from lawyers who want to do something other than legal work. People say, “I’m not just lazy,” “I’m not lazy,” or “It’s not that I don’t want to work.”
Only people who decide to become lawyers have this internal narrative that they are “lazy” if they don’t continue down this path. There’s an assumption that laziness is the reason, but that’s not the case.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/209
Many people who listen to this podcast or reach out to work with Sarah have the question, “Does working as a lawyer give you anxiety or depression?” This podcast covers mental health and the subject of anxiety a lot, and Sarah has talked a lot about being diagnosed with generalized anxiety and a panic disorder. These mental health issues are common among lawyers, so let’s discuss that question.
There’s not really a definitive answer to this question. It’s interesting how much this concern is raised, and that fact in itself says a lot about the profession and its effect on people. It comes up in the Collab program and conversations with clients at all stages of their careers. If this is something that you’re asking, you are not alone.
Learn more about Collab Plus
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/208
Today’s episode features a conversation about how law firms fail lawyers with ADHD with Annie Little. Annie has been on the podcast several times to discuss ADHD in lawyers. This conversation focused on one of the problems in the legal profession regarding how firms are accommodating lawyers with ADHD. It’s often treated like the person with ADHD is what needs to be fixed instead of the structures in the organization.
Annie has worked with many lawyers and spent time in the legal industry. Both Annie and Sarah have plenty of personal experience with law firms and how they handle the disclosure of different needs of their lawyers. This episode explores how a law firm deals with lawyers who have shared an ADHD diagnosis.
Learn more about the Collab Plus
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/207
In this episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah Cottrell and Annie Little engaged in a candid conversation about ADHD and its prevalence among lawyers. They dive into an intriguing question that came in on social media after a previous ADHD conversation: Does being a lawyer give you ADHD?
The podcast revealed some compelling insights about ADHD in the legal profession and debunked misconceptions. If you're a lawyer contemplating a career change, this blog post is for you. We'll break down the essential points from the podcast and explore the real challenges lawyers with ADHD face, shedding light on why they may be considering leaving the law.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/206
Last week, Lauren Ascher was on the podcast to discuss accommodations for lawyers with ADHD. It’s a good segway into an important conversation about disclosing ADHD and other mental health issues to your law firm. It’s no secret that there is a high incidence rate among lawyers for anxiety, depression, panic disorders, and other issues.
In the United States, you are entitled to certain accommodations legally for disorders covered under the ADA. But a real challenge is deciding whether or not you will disclose your ADHD, anxiety, or depression to HR at your workplace. It can feel really daunting to think about disclosing something like this at work.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/205
Today’s podcast episode is diving into the experience of being a lawyer with ADHD. There have been some episodes covering this topic in the past, but this one is with Lauren Ascher, and it’s for people who have ADHD and are wondering what kind of accommodations they can ask their workplace for.
Lauren is a former lawyer. She graduated from Columbia Law School in 2011. Making a career change coincided with her ADHD diagnosis, which came about ten years into her legal career. Since then, she’s become an ADHD coach and is getting her master’s in mental health counseling. It’s valuable to have an actual background in law and to understand ADHD. She’s able to help people and give them hope and strategies to cope.
There is a much higher percentage of people who are lawyers who have ADHD than the general population. Many people listen to this podcast who have ADHD or suspect that they may have ADHD, so let’s dive in.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/204
On today’s podcast of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah is talking about why it sucks to make partner at a law firm.
This isn’t true for everyone, but there are a ton of lawyers out there who works so hard to make partner and then ask themselves, “What have I done?” If you are one of those people or you feel like you’re on that path, this is for you.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/203
On the podcast today, Sarah is talking about lawyers feeling that they don’t fit at their law firm and feeling something is wrong with them because it seems to be working for everyone else.
After years of conversations with lawyers (and former lawyers) Sarah has discovered how common this feeling is. Not fitting in is actually a good thing, and Sarah will explain why.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/202
In today’s podcast episode, Sarah is joined by Francesca Korbas. Francesca is the COO and a partner in the educational consultancy Vested Academics.
Her story follows a unique path than many lawyers who decided to go to law school, and it provides a fascinating perspective on what it's like to step away from law into advocacy work.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/201
Today’s podcast marks a special milestone. It’s the 200th episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast. To celebrate, Sarah sat down with Stacey Harris of Uncommonly More, who Sarah works with to produce the podcast, to talk about how the podcast came to be and what it created.
Other Episodes Mentioned:
Lawyers, Your Job Should Not Make You Cry
The “No Assholes Rule” (And Why It’s A Joke)
Is Being A Lawyer A Bullshit Job?
Burnout In Lawyers with Ilona Salmons
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/200
On today’s podcast episode, Sarah has a conversation with Romy Frazier. Romy is a former lawyer who transitioned from practicing law into real estate investing.
The conversation is extremely helpful because she shares the importance of taking action and making a plan while moving gradually through the process. There are always some good takeaways from listening to someone else’s stories.
Let’s get to know Romy and learn about her story.
Learn more about The Guided Track
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/199
On today’s podcast, Sarah dives into a specific piece of the Guided Track that many clients have found incredibly beneficial. The Guided Track is a small group program that is offered twice a year. This small group works together through the Former Lawyer framework while discussing questions and obstacles and celebrating wins.
The CliftonStrengths Workshop is part of the Guided Track experience. Vanessa Kuljis (a previous guest on the podcast) comes in and does the workshop with the group. It’s an incredibly powerful tool and is often overlooked on the sales page for the Guided Track. CliftonStrengths is a strengths assessment that looks for 34 different talent themes that, when cultivated, turn into strengths. Each person has a different order of these various strengths. The top five are the most significant.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/198
In today’s episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks about the offers she has available for lawyers who are interested in leaving law and looking for some resources to help organize thoughts and plans.
Sarah offers three different programs, each building off the base of the Collaborative and providing a different level of accountability and follow-up depending on your needs.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/197
In today’s episode, Sarah is wrapping up the summer series where she asked questions of some of her clients, who shared their personal experiences. Previous episodes have asked about myths, advice for the person they were five years ago, and much more. Make sure to catch up if you want to hear from people who have utilized some incredible resources The Former Lawyer offers.
This episode focuses on the Guided Track. This is a small group program within the Collab. The group of eight lawyers max meets for ten weeks and works through an action plan that follows the Former Lawyer Framework. In addition, there are some other tools included, like CliftonStrength workshops.
These clients share their experiences and why they think someone should join. The Guided Track happens twice a year, in the spring and in the fall.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/196
On today’s podcast episode, Sarah is sharing answers from Collab members for another question as part of the summer series. Each episode in the series asks the same question to multiple members so listeners can learn more about their experiences.
Today's question is: what’s something you've learned that you wish you could go back and tell the you of five years ago?
Sarah is sharing these responses and talking about how common it is to feel this way. You are not alone if you are struggling in your law career, and it’s possible that you wish you could give the you of five years ago some information as well.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/195
On today’s podcast episode, you’ll learn more about members of the Collab and what has surprised them most. Each episode in this series asks the same question to multiple members so listeners can learn more about their experiences.
Today’s question is: What is the biggest surprise you have experienced thus far in following The Former Lawyer Framework as a Collab member? These members are working to figure out if they want to stay in law or do something different.
Each of the five respondents had something different that surprised them, so you’ll see each of the answers. It’s an interesting way to learn more about the program and what it’s helped members discover about themselves and their career paths.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/194
On today’s podcast episode, it’s another series episode where Sarah is sharing more feedback directly from Collab Members. Each series episode asks the same question to multiple members so listeners can learn more about their experiences.
Today’s question is: What’s one thing that you thought was true that you’ve realized is not true?
Each of the five respondents shares a myth that they believed was true, and how it held them back from making career decisions. With more clarity upon completion of the Guided Track, each of these respondents could reassess their careers.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/193
On today’s podcast episode, Sarah is sharing more feedback directly from Collab Members as part of the summer series. Each series episode asks the same question to multiple members so listeners can learn more about their experiences.
Today's question: What is one thing that felt obvious or elementary that was really transformative for you?
Sarah reminds listeners that sometimes you need that additional support to really recognize when something will make a big difference for you, even if it feels obvious.
On today’s podcast episode, Sarah is sharing more feedback directly from Collab Members as part of the summer series. Each series episode asks the same question to multiple members so listeners can learn more about their experiences. Each person is answering this question today: What is one thing that felt obvious or elementary that was really transformative for you?
Sarah reminds listeners that sometimes you need that additional support to really recognize when something will make a big difference for you, even if it feels obvious.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/192
In today’s podcast, Sarah is kicking off a new series where listeners will hear first-hand experiences from her clients. In each episode, one question will be asked, and you’ll get to hear answers from multiple people.
Each of the clients answering this question is part of the Collab. This is a self-paced program where you get access to The Former Lawyer Framework, the curriculum that helps people figure out what they want to do outside of the law. Collab members are also given access to the Circle community, which is a group of people who can relate to the struggles of leaving the law.
The question kicking this off is: What is one thing that you resisted doing in this process of figuring out what you want to do that isn’t practicing law that you wish you had done sooner?
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/191
In today’s episode, Sarah is back again with Annie Little discussing the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. It’s part of a series of podcast discussions diving into the miseries of a bullshit job. Today, it’s time to dive into the fourth and final misery that comes with bullshit jobs. Go back and catch up if you missed the first three in this series.
The final misery covered in the book is the misery based on knowing that one is doing harm. The most obvious example of this as lawyers would be representing a person or entity, and they are asking you to do something that is itself harmful. While these situations may arise, people tend to be aware and can deal with the moral conflict.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/190
In today’s episode, Sarah is back again with Annie Little discussing the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber.
It’s part of a series of podcast discussions diving into the miseries of a bullshit job, and today, it’s time to dive into the third misery that comes with bullshit jobs. If you missed the first two, go back and catch up.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/189
In today’s episode, Sarah is back again with Annie Little discussing the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. It’s part of a series of podcast discussions, so check out the others before and after this one. Graeber gives four reasons why having a bullshit job feels so miserable.
Last week’s discussion was all about the first reason—ambiguity and forced pretense—catch up on that one first. Then, let’s dive into the second reason.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/188
This podcast episode is part of the series where Sarah is chatting with Annie Little about the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. If you missed the first episode in this series, check that out first and learn the background of this series and more about Annie. This episode is about the misery of ambiguity and forced pretense, which is the first of four things Graeber identifies as an impact that having a bullshit job can have on you.
When it comes to ambiguity in law firms, the lack of transparency is the first thing that comes to mind for Annie. She points out that there should be a simple, straightforward path with clear instructions on each assignment and an obvious ladder to climb within the firm. In reality, there are so many hidden things that lawyers are left to just figure out on their own.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/187
Sarah kicks off a new series on today's podcast with Annie Little, another lawyer career coach. Annie has been on the podcast a few times in the past, like the episode on ADHD. She founded her company, JD Nation, and helps lawyers find better jobs, both in and out of law.
In this new series, the two of them discuss the book Bullshit Jobs: A Theory by David Graeber and dive into some of the book's observations. This first episode covers why you should care about this book and answer, “Is being a lawyer a bullshit job?”
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/186
On the podcast today, Sarah is talking to Andrew Sohn, a podcast listener. He was practicing law when he began listening to the podcast and decided to transition to career services at a law school.
Andrew shares his journey from law school and deciding to leave the law for the career happiness he's found today.
It was interesting to hear many of the previous podcast themes come up in the conversation, so let’s dive in and learn more about Andrew’s story.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/185
In today’s episode, Sarah talks about how people look at those who leave law firms. The views tend to be distorted, especially from others who work at the firm.
This comes up often in Sarah’s conversations with former lawyers and people who are still currently working in law, so today, she’s diving in a bit deeper.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/184
In today’s podcast, Sarah is chatting with Raha Francis. Raha graduated from Harvard Law and worked as a corporate intellectual property attorney before pivoting into a management consultant role at the Boston Consulting Group.
During those years, she figured out how she wanted to spend her days and helps people today figure out how to create a career and life that resonates with them.
The conversation centers around self-compassion and using curiosity to help determine the best path.
Let’s dive in.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/183
In this podcast episode, Sarah responds to a listener's email about a recent episode where the discussion was about law firms and the narcissists that often run them. The listener wanted an additional discussion on the podcast about the bullying and abuse that goes on in law firms.
Sarah spent a decade moving through different sections of the law, plus the recent work on Former Lawyer with many stories from other current and former lawyers. If anyone is going through this situation, it’s horrible and confusing. It’s hard even to understand what is happening at the moment.
Much of the abuse involves lawyers being told their work isn’t good enough, but not in a constructive criticism way. There’s a difference between giving someone feedback in a way that they can take it and it can be useful, and then there is just being a jerk. Managing people requires skills, especially when it comes to giving feedback.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/182
On today’s podcast, Sarah is chatting with Jayci Lee, a former lawyer who has become an author since leaving her job as a litigator. The conversation covers everything from the process of leaving law to the importance of caring for mental health.
Sarah discovered Jayci after reading one of her books where the main character is a lawyer. One former lawyer instantly recognized another, and she knew Jayci would be a great podcast guest.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/181
Sarah talked with Karen Gulde a few months ago as part of the former lawyers turned therapists month. Karen talked about her experience of hypervigilance as a lawyer, the experience of her nervous system is constantly activated, and how common that is for lawyers.
Sarah’s husband, Ed Cottrell, posted a reaction to that on LinkedIn and shared his experiences in the last year since he left law.
In this episode, Sarah chats more with Ed about his experience with hypervigilance and leaving the law.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/180
Sarah is interviewing Dina Lynch Eisenberg, an organizational ombuds, with an interesting journey through her career. As a former lawyer, she understands the struggles of that profession and has found a way to utilize her skills to build a business.
The conversation covers the different paths she took after leaving the law (her patchwork career to put it in Dina's words). Plus, she dives into exactly what she does for work now as an organizational ombuds. It’s a great conversation for any former lawyers considering HR roles and anyone looking to learn more about what’s out there.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/179
In today’s environment, Biglaw is, unfortunately, doing quite a few layoffs, and it’s a topic that many lawyers have at the top of their minds. This podcast covers many's feelings when laid off and some ways to reframe your thoughts around the topic.
We'll discuss what stealth layoffs are, why it's ok to have mixed feelings, and how to move forward.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/178
On today’s podcast, Sarah talks to Ruth Kaufman, a voice-over and on-film actor who is also a former lawyer.
Law school was never an option that Ruth felt drawn to, but with pressures from her parents, she earned her degree. Her career path has woven in and out of law a bit, but she’s now a successful voiceover actor.
Learn more about her journey and advice to anyone looking to make a similar shift.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/177
Sarah spoke with last week’s guest, Megan Nogasky, again on this week’s podcast to dive deeper into the idea of taking mental health breaks.
They chatted about the importance of listening to the signs, how to take the first steps, and some of the common challenges lawyers have in taking a mental health break.
If you missed last week's episode, make sure to listen to learn more about Megan’s story of leaving law and turning to the mental health field.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/176
In today’s podcast episode, Sarah talks to Megan Nogasky, her former law school classmate.
Megan is another former lawyer who returned to school to get into the mental health space to join the series featuring lawyers who have transitioned into this industry.
Megan shares some great advice and gives listeners her story about discovering that being a lawyer wasn’t for her anymore and how she made the transition.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/175
On the Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah is chatting with Lauren Ascher about how an ADHD diagnosis changed a career, prompting her to make the career change from law to mental health work.
After ten years as a lawyer, Lauren is back in school, getting her master’s in mental health counseling. She is also working as an ADHD executive function coach.
After our episode with Annie Little a few months ago, many listeners have reached out about undiagnosed ADHD, so read along and listen to the podcast to learn about Lauren’s experience as a former lawyer.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/174
In this episode of the Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah interviews Yael Eiserike, a former lawyer turned therapist.
They talk about the challenges of deciding to go back to school, why therapy felt like the best fit for Yael, and what advice she has for any current lawyers debating making a big change in their life.
Connect with Yael Eiserke
Website: https://www.pacificmft.com/ Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@pacificmft Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PacificMFTNetwork Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pacificmft2/ See show notes at formerlawyer.com/173
In this episode, Sarah interviews a former lawyer, Karen Gulde. After 22 years as a lawyer, she decided to transition into counseling and help drive home the importance of mental health and self-care.
Sarah and Karen talk about what factors led to her making the career switch, and what advice she has for others who might be considered the same.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/167
This podcast episode is all about therapy for lawyers. Sarah covers the importance of finding a therapist that fits your needs and the five tips to help you find the right person.
There aren’t therapists for lawyers specifically, but there are a few tools you can utilize to help you find someone that works best for you. Sarah has been very open about how therapy has helped her and wants to share her advice to help other lawyers find therapists so they can enjoy the same benefits.
5 Tips to Find Therapists for Lawyers
Let’s dive into the top five tips for finding a lawyer therapist and how to start your journey today.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/171
In this episode, Sarah interviews Mike Whelan, the author of Lawyer Forward. They chat about his work helping solo attorneys, breaking out of the task-oriented law world, and moving towards a system that allows people to thrive and succeed. You’ll hear about his experience starting law school in his 30s right as the recession hit and find out how that impacted his choice to start his own firm after graduation.
It’s a fascinating conversation that focuses on the idea that your job is not your identity and how lawyers can use their strengths to find a fulfilling career path. Let’s jump in!
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/170
As a Capricorn, I have an innate love for personal finance. I can nerd out and consume things like investing, budgeting, saving, paying off debt, and more for days. But I also believe that we relate to money the same way we relate to the people we date. In fact, we tie our worthiness to these things, especially women.
So how are they similar, and how do you decouple your self-worth from your finances and your love life? In this episode, I talk about the connection between where you spend money and who you date.
9:30 - The investment I used to make while dating and the policy that changed everything
13:50 - A common pattern I’ve noticed in some clients who use the same policy
16:21 - The parallels between your romantic relationships and your relationship with money
20:03 - What happens when you let money control you instead of you controlling it
25:26 - How to get control of your money so that it doesn’t control you
30:39 - A really shitty way to live that some personal finance gurus, nevertheless, recommend
36:30 - A little juicy preview of an upcoming episode
I hope you enjoyed this episode! Find me on Instagram or email me with your feedback. I look forward to hearing from you!
After you listen to How to Spend Your Money and Time Dating Better, here are your next steps: * Sign-up for the Love Incubator. * Listen to episode 298: “My Four-Part Framework to Clear Your Money Blocks.” * With my impactful introductory coaching session, you’ll walk away knowing exactly what’s blocking you in love. Learn more about working with me 1-on-1 and schedule your Introductory Session here. * Finally, If you get value from the Love Life Connection, please rate & review it on Apple Podcasts. It only takes a sec to impact our ranking + it’ll help other women find our community!
This episode features Cary Simowitz. Cary met Sarah by email in the summer of 2020 while he was still working as a lawyer.
Before then, he had done a detour and bagged a MFA degree in California, right out of law school. Now, Cary works as the head of legal marketing at a law firm in the Midwest.
His story is proof that taking a detour as a lawyer is not necessarily a death knell like most people believe. When you follow your heart and ditch the soul-sucking legal practice, you can live the life of your dreams.
You can start by arming yourself with the necessary information that you need on your journey. This is what the Guided Track with Sarah offers. The Guided Track gives you access to resources on how to leave the law and a community of former lawyers and aspiring former lawyers like you who are ready to walk the journey with you.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/169
As you know, my podcast and membership, the Collaborative, is all about helping lawyers who feel they want to leave the law determine what they want to do instead, and how to do it.
Usually, I share the stories of guests who have left the law already or want to leave the law, they are other “former lawyers” who are ready to share their stories. Now, we’re kicking off a new series of episodes where I am going to be interviewing some of my clients who are in the Collaborative.
The Collaborative is confidential, so we are calling today’s guest “Anon” to protect her anonymity, but she’s been gracious enough to share her experiences with us to help dispel those misconceptions about the process of making a career change and how the Collaborative is facilitating her transition.
Learn more about The Guided Track - formerlawyer.com/guidedtrack
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/098
This episode features Angelica Pedraza, who has eight years of experience working as a commercial real estate lawyer in Biglaw, Midlaw, and a boutique firm. Angelina has been a lawyer for eight years but has decided to leave the field to become a nurse.
Angelina gave notice at her firm in October of last year after joining the Former Lawyer Collaborative in May. In this episode, we learn about her journey and how she plans to change careers.
If you’re reading this and want the resources, courage, and support to make the kind of change she did, you can get all these by joining the Collaborative’s Guided Track course. Joining the course gives you access to all the resources in the Collaborative and the Former Lawyer Framework that detail how to make that transition. Apart from these, you also get access to a community of lawyers who will join a weekly call with Sarah to provide support.
Enrollment closes on February 17th, as this cohort starts on the 20th.
Now, let’s get into the conversation with Angelica.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/168
This episode is a follow-up to Sarah’s previous conversation with Jamie Spannhake. Jamie is a Former Lawyer Collaborative member who left the law in October 2021 after 17 years of practice.
In this episode, Jamie talks about what she's done over the last 12 months since leaving the law and some of the lessons that she has continued to learn. If you want to experience the same thing, Sarah will start a new round of the Guided Track in February to help you figure out what you want to do outside the law.
When you join the Guided Track, you get access to everything in the Collab, including the community, weekly calls, and an action plan that guides you through the Former Lawyer Framework. This cohort will only take six lawyers, secure your spot now. Enrollment closes on February 17, and the course starts on the 20th.
Now, let’s get into the conversation with Jamie!
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/167
This episode features Marquel Stuedemann, who joined the Former Lawyer Collaborative in the Fall 2021 cohort of Guided Track.
Marquel discusses her experiences before and after joining The Collaborative. In this episode, you will see what being in The Collaborative looks like and how the support can help you leave the law by identifying an alternative career that is a great fit for you.
If you would love to have the same experience as Marquel Stuedemann, you can join the next Guided Track cohort that starts in February. The Guided Track is a ten-week support program that gives you access to all the resources in The Collaborative, including weekly support calls with five other lawyers that get into the program. You also get a 30-minute one-on-one call with Sarah Cottrell, which you can use during the ten weeks.
Now, let’s get into the conversation with Marquel.
In this episode, Sarah discusses starting 2023 with a new podcast series that features previous clients in the Former Lawyer Collaborative.
People who listen to the new series will hear the inspiring stories of former lawyers who quit their soul-sucking jobs by following Sarah's tried-and-true advice and strategies. These former lawyers are now in careers they love and are enjoying the life they now live to the fullest!
Learn more about The Guided Track.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/165
Loly Orozco is a former financial restructuring lawyer who went from Biglaw to running a creative business. Her stationery design company, Little Postage House, sells curated vintage postage stamps and designs and prints all types of paper items from birth announcements to wedding invitations to save the dates.
On this episode of the podcast, Loly shares how she took something that she loved, creating art, and ultimately determined that making it a business was a great fit for her.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/086
Today’s episode picks up from the last bit of Sarah’s discussion with Sarah Rutledge Fischer.
In the first half of the conversation, Sarah talked about her journey through the legal track and into a Biglaw firm. She also spoke about seeking therapy and being pregnant while practicing law.
In the final part of this conversation, you’ll read about her journey out of the law and into the art world. You’ll also learn a bit about the concept of “following your passion” and how Sarah (Cottrell) helps lawyers to leave the law.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/039
This week, I’m sharing my conversation with Dr. Jan Newman. Jan moved from Biglaw associate to clinical psychologist and executive coach who works with multi-passionate high achievers who want to level up their lives.
She is a published author, researcher, and frequent speaker on emotional intelligence, interpersonal effectiveness, and psychological flexibility. In her former life, she was a practicing lawyer.
This is an incredible conversation with some amazing takeaways about finding a different career path.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/037
The episode is an installment in The After series that focuses on showing lawyers that the after is really better than before. This episode features Janelle Christian, who successfully transitioned from big law to life coaching.
In this conversation, Janelle talks to Sarah about being bored in the legal profession and building a side hustle as a lawyer. She talked about how some harmful lies told in the legal field hurt people and make lawyers feel bad about themselves.
You should listen to this conversation to learn how to create lives of autonomy, happiness, freedom, and wealth.
Let's dive in!
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/077
Kicking off a new podcast series, The After Series.
The new series will help unhappy lawyers who are hesitant to quit their soul-sucking jobs for fear of what comes next or because of uncertainty see that quitting to follow their passion makes things better than before.
Why the After Series is Important
Sarah notes that a common trait among her clients, especially those in Biglaw, is disbelief that things could get better than they currently are in their job. Those working in Biglaw firms can attest that a lot of emotional and mental manipulation happens in these firms.
The incredibly toxic environment makes it hard to believe that doing something outside the law will help these lawyers feel better or enjoy a better life. These lawyers constantly wonder if things are better on the other side of the law.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/164
This episode features Greg Jacobs, who has successfully transitioned from the law into the technology industry as a data scientist after 14 years of practice.
In this conversation, Sarah talks to Greg about the approach he used to move into a job that many lawyers are potentially thinking about without fully returning to school. You should listen to this if you want to start a fulfilling career in the tech industry.
You will learn the exact process Greg used to get his dream job and how taking the risk to trust his instinct brought him to where he is right now. Let’s get right in!
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/164
In this episode, Sarah talks about lawyers and former lawyers struggling with the decision to transition out of the law for fear of missing out or underachieving in their new field. These lawyers think that those who are practicing are more “successful.”
Here, you will learn how to overcome the fear of failing and how joining the Former Lawyer Collaborative can help you to ditch regret and fear.
Let’s get into it!
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/162
First things first. You are totally justified in thinking coaching is a scam. Why is that? Because in the great big online world, there are a ton of “coaches” and coaching programs out there that are straight-up scams.
That certainly doesn’t mean that all coaching is a scam. However, many people who present themselves as coaches are not legit. They engage in questionable practices and frankly do not have the best interests of their clients in mind.
In this article, a certified coach and coaching program creator, you’ll learn how you can avoid coaching scams to save time and money for something you’ll get value from. Let’s get right into it.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/161
On the latest episode of the Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah took a break from interviewing former lawyers to share something important for anyone in a toxic workplace. She talked about how being in a toxic workplace makes it harder to figure out what you want to do when you eventually move on.
Toxic workplaces trigger all sorts of responses from the nervous systems that make it almost impossible to do the inner work needed to gain clarity, whether it’s on a post-legal career or just another sector of law.
Keep reading to learn how your toxic work environment makes it harder for you to figure out what you want to do after leaving the law.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/160
Laura Evans went to law school wanting to be an environmental lawyer. She focused on that all the way to actually practicing environmental law, which is pretty uncommon in the legal world.
When she eventually left, she didn’t have a plan, but she did still have the passion to make a change for the environment. Now, she works as an environmental planner, still in the environmental space but doing slightly different types of work than before she left the law.
In their conversation, Sarah and Laura talked a lot about how that happened, she had a panic attack on a Friday, and by Monday, handed in her notice. And, they talked about why that worked out so well for her. Let’s get into the conversation.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/159
Are you crying because of your job as a lawyer? Hang tight for some advice!
This is by far the most popular episode that has been released on The Former Lawyer Podcast. The title is ‘Your Job Should Not Make You Cry’.
In this article, you’ll talk a little bit more about why that is true and what it means for you if this is your experience working in the law. So, let’s get started!
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/042
Sarah shares something she has observed in her clients who have worked in the law for a long time. Many of these lawyers fear being the only one with that level of tenure who has ever left the law.
Today, you’re going to learn why that couldn’t be further from the truth and how the Former Lawyer Collaborative can help any lawyers who are struggling with that fear.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/158
For this episode of the Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah chatted with Heather Moulder. Heather worked in Biglaw and even made partners. But in the end, she left to inspire and impact people as a success coach for lawyers.
In this conversation, you’ll learn about Heather’s career in Biglaw and how she discovered coaching. You’ll also get to read how a huge life event and her values helped her make the career shift.
This is an amazing read for anyone constantly battling with their values and career in the law.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/157
Today, we’re going to talk about something that comes up for almost anyone who decides to leave the law to do something else, especially those who started in Biglaw. That is the experience of grieving your legal career.
Now, that may sound sad, but don't worry. This article won’t be super heavy. But it’s something we need to speak about because grieving your career is something that isn’t that’s taught or really even discussed.
Career grief is unfortunately extremely stigmatized because it’s not how grief is typically known. But career grief can rear its ugly head, even if you want to leave the law and are happy about it. You can learn more about recovering from grief by checking out Stigma Free Grief For Lawyers With Heather Horton. But for now, keep reading to learn more about grieving your legal career.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/156
Mary Adkins followed her dream of becoming an author after leaving the law. And she knew the law wasn’t for her by the second day.
Today she's joining Sarah Cottrell to share her story of leaving Biglaw to become an author and writing coach.
There are so many lawyers out there with dreams of being a writer, but they don’t know how or where to begin. If that’s you, you’ll want to stay tuned to learn how you can get help leaving the law and becoming an author too.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/154
This particular piece of advice is generally garbage advice for lawyers. The advice in question is, “do what you love.” or “When you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life.”
There are so many things that are problematic about this advice, especially for lawyers. Keep reading to learn more about why “do what you love” is garbage advice for lawyers.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/154
Are you sick of your job as a lawyer and want to find an alternative career? Have you been searching for a coaching program for lawyers that can support you in that process?
If you've been thinking about investing in a coaching program for lawyers or even working with a career coach, then today’s blog post will be helpful.
Today I am talking about what to expect in the Guided Track, my upcoming group coaching program for lawyers who want to leave the legal profession and pursue an alternative career.
Learn more about The Guided Track at formerlawyer.com/guidedtrack
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/153
On the latest episode of the Former Lawyer, Sarah takes a break from interviewing former lawyers to talk about a realization that many clients have when trying to find the right post-legal career.
Something can be simple and still not be easy. While these two words are often used synonymously, they aren’t the same. Not in the case of the process of leaving the law.
Figuring out what you really want to do is quite difficult. And while there are things that can help make the process easier for you, that doesn’t mean that it’s any easier to find the best post-legal career option.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/152
This week, we’re sharing the second part of Sarah’s conversation with her husband and former lawyer, Ed Cottrell.
Last week, Ed and Sarah talked about the beginning of his journey into law and some of the events earlier in his legal career. This week, you’ll read about the later half of Ed’s legal career, when he left, and where he is now.
They also talked about what Ed has seen and experienced being a part of the whole Former Lawyer journey. So, let’s get to the second part of how Ed Cotrell left a “fine” legal career for a much better and actually enjoyable hybrid role.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/151
Lawyers are under constant stress and pressure yet always have a “this is fine” mentality. “Everything will be fine,” we keep telling ourselves. But, is it really fine? And, is “fine” good enough?
This week, you’ll read about Ed Cottrell, a former lawyer and most importantly, Sarah’s husband. Ed had a legal career for 13 years before leaving the law for a job in legal tech. You’ll notice the ever-present theme of “just fine” in Ed’s legal career journey.
During their conversation, Sarah and Ed spoke about the positives and negatives of his legal career, how his experience intersected with Sarah’s, and ultimately, how Former Lawyer came to be.
Sarah and Ed had so much to discuss that this article is divided into two parts. So, without further ado, let’s get into it!
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/150
On the latest episode of the Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah sat down with former lawyer Landis Wade to talk about his journey in leaving the law after practicing for a long time. 35 years, to be exact.
In their conversation, Sarah and Landis touched on many common themes on the podcast and in lawyers that are desperate to leave the law.
Whether you’re new or want to leave the legal profession practicing for years, this conversation will get you thinking further about what could be next for you. Let’s get started.
The Guided Track is a live 10-week small-group intensive for lawyers who want to jumpstart their search for an alternative career. You may have already heard of the Former Lawyer Collaborative. The Guided Track builds on the curriculum with Collaborative and adds this experience of a small group plus Sarah for ten weeks. You can also get weekly coaching as you move through the curriculum.
The next session of the Guided Track kicks off this fall. The orientation will be on September 13th, running through November 22nd. Calls will be on Tuesday evenings at 8:00 PM Eastern.
There are nine spots available. This is a small-group experience where you're going to be able to get a lot of personal feedback from Sarah. And, included in your enrollment is membership in The Former Lawyer Collaborative. You get support beyond the 10 weeks of the Guided Track. When you enroll in the Guided Track, you get access to the Collaborative immediately.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/149
Today, we’re talking about a piece of trash advice that can really harm some lawyers who want to leave the law.
We really need to talk about a piece of advice that people give to lawyers about their jobs. Personally, I think that it’s just plain trash advice.
The trash advice we’re talking about today is, “Learn to love where you are.” Again, we’ll talk about why this advice is terrible for lawyers who want to leave the law and what you should do if you encounter it. Let’s get into it!
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/148
In this episode, you’ll learn about Aliza Shatzman, a former lawyer turned co-founder of a non-profit called Accountability Project.
Aliza shares the circumstances that led her to decide to leave the legal system and start The Legal Accountability Project. The Legal Accountability Project seeks to ensure that as many law clerks as possible have a positive clerkship experience while extending support and resources to those who do not.
Sarah and Aliza also discuss some popular topics on the podcast, like the dysfunction in the legal system and what needs to change. This is an extremely important conversation that everyone in the profession should be having, so stay tuned!
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/147
On the latest episode of the podcast, Sarah had a conversation with Adam Pascarella about his journey in and out of Biglaw.
Adam is currently the founder and CEO of Second Order Capital Management. But before that, Adam worked in Biglaw as an associate and ended up writing a book while leaving the law.
The process Adam went through to figure out what he wanted to do after leaving the law is so interesting. So, stick around to read all about Adams’s journey in writing a book while leaving the law!
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/146
If you’re a regular listener, you know that I practiced law for ten years, and now, I help unhappy lawyers ditch their soul-sucking jobs. On this podcast, I share advice for aspiring former lawyers and interviews to help you through the process of leaving and finding a new career.
Today, I want to talk to you about why I didn’t do career coaching for lawyers when I first started Former Lawyer and what got me started doing 1:1 coaching. I’ll also talk about what it looks like to work with me and how you can get started.
Are you ready? Let’s get going!
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/145
On the latest episode of the Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah spoke with Navneet Mann, a former lawyer and listener of the podcast turned professional coach! She has her own practice, helping lawyers and other business professionals with business and mindset coaching.
In this conversation, they talked about many different topics, including law firm abuse, the lawyer identity obstacle, and so much more.
Keep reading to learn all about Navneet’s journey in the legal field and how she turned it around to become a business and mindset coach!
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/144
As you know, on the Former Lawyer Podcast, I share advice and strategies for aspiring former lawyers. And, I do interviews with former lawyers who have left the law behind to find careers and lives that they love.
Today, I want to talk about whether or not I think everyone should leave the law. Now, that might sound like a ridiculous question. But it does come up a lot from people that read the blog or listen to the podcast.
So, do I think everyone should leave the law? Keep reading to learn the answer and what my goal really is for Former Lawyer!
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/143
Today, I'm sharing my conversation with Karen Spencer. Karen is a former lawyer who responded to my requests for guests who had experience in patent law. Karen has an interesting background, coming to the legal profession from engineering. First, she wanted to work in general commercial law but ended up in patent law. She soared through the legal realm, even making partner at a large law firm before exiting the legal profession for a startup.
Like all my guests, Karen realized the law wasn’t for her and decided to explore her options, eventually landing in her position at SearchFunder. Let’s get into my conversation with Karen Spencer.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/142
Today I'm sharing a bit from my conversation with Annie Little, a former lawyer turned coach for lawyers. I had spoken to her before for the podcast. But, I wanted to talk to her again because she has recently been diagnosed with ADHD.
This is something that I wanted to talk about but didn’t have my own experience with it. So, I’m happy to share it with you because this is the experience of lawyers having ADHD. After all, so many lawyers have ADHD and feel like it's something they can't talk about.
Let’s get into my conversation with Annie Little about ADHD and lawyers, so we can all gain some knowledge and compassion surrounding neurodiversity in the legal progression.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/141
Today, I am sharing my conversation with David Sparks. David practiced law for close to 30 years and he has only recently left his job in the law to focus on his side hustle, MacSparky.
In our conversation, we spoke about many different things including what he has found surprising about leaving the law, some of the responses he's received, and lots of other things.
I'm excited to share this conversation unique story with you. So, let's get right into my conversation with David Sparks.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/140
Today is going to be a little bit of a spicy episode, and we'll be talking today about The No Asshole Rule. I'm guessing that most of you in the legal profession have heard of this “rule”.
It often comes up in interviews where you're interviewing with a legal workplace. This happens most often in large firms, but not always. It happens in other contexts as well.
We’re also going to talk a little bit about what this rule really means, and what you can do if you’ve already found out. Let’s get right into the No Asshole Rule.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/139
On the latest episode of the Former Lawyer Podcast, I spoke with Ashley Chi. Ashley worked in Biglaw for seven years in patent litigation. Then, she went in-house and managed outside patent attorneys. Now, she works as a legal recruiter. The episode was listener-requested, looking for a former lawyer who had experience in Biglaw patent work and has had experience in that field as a woman with the dynamics that exist in Biglaw. So without further ado, let's get to my conversation with Ashley about working as a woman in Biglaw and patents.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/138
As you know, one of the things I do is share advice and strategies for aspiring former lawyers. Today, I'm going to talk about a question that comes up frequently when people are thinking about joining the Collab.
The question I'm talking about is if group programs like the Collab work well for introverts. I am an introvert myself. So. I totally understand feeling drained by interactions with people, even if you enjoy interacting with people.
Let's talk a little bit about how group programs can actually be great for introverts. Plus, what you can expect if you are an introvert who’s thinking about joining a group program, like the Collab. Let’s go!
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/137
On the latest episode of the Former Lawyer Podcast, I had a wonderful conversation with Kevin Ha. Kevin has a unique story compared to my other guests because he left the law to do side-hustles and blogging full-time.
I'm excited for you to hear this conversation about how he went from Biglaw to the government to non-profit. And, how he ultimately ended up working on his website and doing side hustles full-time. Let's get to my conversation with Kevin.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/136
This week, I want to talk about an issue that I see come up so often for lawyers. What we're going to talk about today is the mindset of "if you're not suffering in the law, you're not working hard enough." It's particularly prevalent in really toxic work environments or workplaces, where being consistently overworked is normalized.
Want to learn more? Let’s get started.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/135
This week, I'm sharing my conversation with Julie Lythcott-Haims. I first heard Julie share her story on a podcast called The Anxious Achiever Podcast. After listening, I immediately asked her to come onto The Former Lawyer Podcast and share her story.
Julie started her legal career in Biglaw, then she went in-house. But after falling out of love with the law for various reasons, she became an associate dean at Stanford Law School for student affairs. Now, she is an accomplished author and speaker.
I loved having this conversation with Julie, and I'm really looking forward to sharing it with you.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/134
Do I really want to leave the law? Or is it just my particular job? How do I know whether it's just my particular job or whether it's the law entirely?
This is one of the most asked questions by people who want to leave the law. I literally have conversations with people about this every week, so we're going to talk about it today.
I can’t answer this question for you. But today, I'm going to pull this question apart and help you look past the doubt it causes, so you can answer it yourself. Let’s dive in!
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/133
Today, I'm sharing my conversation with Vanessa Kuljis. Vanessa and I overlapped at the same law school, though we didn't meet each other while we were there. I connected with Vanessa while looking for someone to come into the Collab and help my clients specifically with the CliftonStrengths assessment.
CliftonStrengths is an assessment that helps you evaluate your natural talents as you're thinking about what you want to do in life. I learned more of her story; about working in Biglaw, finding the assessment, and how it helps her realize working as a coach was the right fit.
I wanted to share Vanessa’s story with you to give you some insight into how understanding your own strengths can be helpful for you in your process of figuring out what you want to do next.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/132
On the latest episode of the Former Lawyer Podcast, I asked Kara Hardin to come back on the podcast to talk about trauma and lawyers. You may remember her previous episode where she talked about leaving the law for a career in mental health. We've had several therapists on the podcast recently, like Ilona Salmons, who came on the podcast to discuss burnout in lawyers. In all of these conversations, trauma from being a lawyer was a common theme.
Today, we’re going to focus on trauma and lawyers. We’re also going to talk a bit about the big influx of former lawyers seeking a new career in mental health.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/131
Today, I'm sharing my conversation with Andy Cabasso. Andy is a former lawyer and startup founder that began by starting a legal marketing business in law school with a former college roommate.
He ultimately ended up moving into that full-time and selling that business and starting another one. We’re going to be talking about Andy’s transition out of the law and into legal marketing, and startup creation.
And as always, we’ll have some tips for you if you’re thinking about leaving the law. So without further ado, let’s get into my conversation with Andy Cabasso.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/130
One of the most frustrating things in the legal industry is when you aren't happy with your job, you're feeling a ton of pressure and stress. But when you try to communicate with the non-lawyers in your life, they don't understand.
So today, I want to talk about one specific factor that makes lawyering so stressful. The crushing expectation of perfection in the legal industry.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/129
Today I'm excited to share my conversation with Stinson Mundy with you. Stinson started as a litigator and eventually, opened her own solo practice. Now, she is a director at a company called Envoy Portfolio.
We talked about her legal career journey and later, her decision to leave the law. And we also touched on many common themes that come up on the Podcast.
I just know that everyone reading will get something of value out of this. So without further ado, let's get to my conversation with Stinson.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/128
Today, I want to talk about a hot topic on the Former Lawyer Podcast: narcissism. The reason that we really need to talk about it is that, as bad as it sounds, there’s a lot of narcissism in the legal profession.
This is not going to be a comprehensive exploration of narcissism. But we’re going to talk about a few different types of narcissism that are rampant in the legal system. Not only are these traits often normalized, but they’re sometimes even rewarded.
Articles Mentioned
How to Identify a Malignant Narcissist - https://www.verywellmind.com/how-to-recognize-a-malignant-narcissist-4164528
Qualities of a Narcissistic Sociopath - https://www.verywellmind.com/understanding-the-narcissistic-sociopath-4587611
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/127
This week, I'm really excited to share my conversation with Amber Haggins with you. Amber is a former lawyer who now sits as Prophet's Vice President of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion.
As you’ll hear from her story, she has lots of great advice for people who are thinking about an alternative career in DEI. But, her story is useful to anyone looking to leave their job as a lawyer.
Listen in to learn more about Amber and to hear her advice for finding an alternative career after leaving your job as a lawyer and how you can potentially find your next career in DEI.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/126
Are you looking to leave the law, and find a non-legal career, but something is holding you back? Do you think there’s something wrong because you just can’t do this anymore?
Today we need to talk about four myths that lawyers who want to explore post-legal careers are holding on to, which is often keeping them from exploring their options when it comes to a post-legal career.
Listen in because there is a decent chance that at least one of these, if not more, is something that you're dealing with, and I want to talk about what they are and how to think about these myths and recognize them for what they are, which is a myth.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/125
This week on the podcast, I'm excited to share my interview with Rho Thomas. Rho and I originally connected when she was still working as a lawyer in a Biglaw firm, and she had developed an interest in personal finance.
More recently, I saw that Rho had left her job in Biglaw and she was now doing this work as a financial coach for lawyers. So, naturally, I asked her to come on the podcast, and here we are.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/124
On the latest episode of the Former Lawyer podcast, I had Ilona Salmons back to continue our conversation about burned-out lawyers.
We wanted to have this conversation because we know that burnout in lawyers is extremely prevalent and can be detrimental to your mental health if it’s not dealt with.
In this episode, we’ll cover signs of lawyer burnout, as well as the contributing factors that lead to burnout in lawyers, so you know what to look for and then a little information about how you can prevent it or at least make yourself less susceptible.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/123
This week, I am talking about my interview with Ilona Salmons. She's actually not a lawyer but she works primarily with mental health in lawyers and other high achievers. In fact, in her doctoral research, the subject of it was burnout in lawyers.
I wanted to share this interview with her because some of the things that we talk about quite a bit are mental health and lawyers, lawyer burnout, and the normalized toxicity in legal workplaces.
People have a lot of questions about it. Let's be real, burnout in lawyers is rampant. It's a huge problem, which is why I'm so excited to share this conversation with you. So, let's get right to the conversation.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/122
Are you ready to find a new job after leaving the law? Do you want to find the right post-legal career for you? Well, you’ve come to the right place!
Here at Former Lawyer, I work with lawyers to help find the best path after leaving their soul-sucking careers. Today, I’m going to talk about the upcoming Guided Track through the Former Lawyer Framework.
We’ll also talk about how it relates to the Collaborative and how it works with lawyers like you in finding a new job after leaving the law. Keep reading to learn more about how the upcoming Guided Track can help you!
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/121
On the latest episode of the Former Lawyer podcast, I talked about The Eight Signs of a Toxic Legal Workplace. For this episode, I am going to pull heavily from a great piece by Ilona Salmons, who is a therapist that specializes in working with lawyers.
You may have noticed that toxic workplaces often come up a lot on the podcast. The reason that I think this topic is important to talk about is that toxic workplaces are the number one contributor to burnout.
As you’re reading, I want you to think about whether or not this is true for your work environment, and to think about why seeing these signs matters. Keep reading to learn the 8 signs of a toxic workplace and what you can do to avoid burnout.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/120
This week, I want to talk to you about the pernicious cycle that is trapping you in your lawyer job. Obviously, this doesn't apply to everyone but if you are someone who's feeling trapped in your job as a lawyer, then I'm going to guess that this cycle is part of why.
By far, when my clients come to me to work with me, this is one of the things that they talk about the most as what ultimately pushed them to find some support and accountability around their process of figuring out what they want to do that isn't practicing law.
This is something that I experienced 100% when I was practicing law as well. It comes up all of the time. So, read on to learn what this cycle really looks like and how you can break it to finally get out of your soul-sucking job as a lawyer.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/119.
Welcome to the very first episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast that's releasing in 2022. Today, I want to talk to you about a question that I'm sure many of you have, which is, “How can I leave the law this year?”
It's interesting because when I speak with non-lawyers about the work that I do, this question might seem a little bit odd to them. In their eyes, the solution is to just leave and get out of there.
But if you're a lawyer, it can be much more complicated than that. Keep reading to learn how you can leave the law this year.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/118
Today, I’ll be talking about the issue of Biglaw associate burnout. I cannot tell you the number of people who I have heard from in the last year who are months into a career in the Biglaw system, and they are just like, “I can't do this anymore. This is inhumane.”
Earlier this summer, I shared a video about Biglaw Associate Burnout. This idea that Biglaw firms acting like they couldn't possibly have anticipated the way that their associates are feeling couldn’t be further from the truth. They know exactly what they’re doing.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/117
Today, we’re going to be talking about a topic I feel very strongly about. It’s also something that I’ve been seeing more and more in the legal profession. There is a school of thought that your thoughts cause your feelings. This idea is derived from a well-established and evidence-based type of therapy called cognitive-behavioral therapy.
As you know, I frequently advocate for people in the legal profession to go to therapy. But, in this article, you’ll learn about the reality of CBT for lawyers and how it can be more harmful than helpful.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/116
This week on the podcast, we re-released one of the most popular episodes of the podcast. I wanted to make sure that if you haven't heard it before, you have a chance to hear it, and if you have listened to it before, you are reminded of it.
This is because this is the episode that I hear about from people the most, hands down of all the episodes that have been released on The Former Lawyer Podcast. The title is ‘Your Job Should Not Make You Cry’.
I’ll talk a little bit more about why that is true and what it means for you if this is your experience.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/042
Kara Hardin is a therapist and used to be a corporate and securities lawyer. In the latest episode of the podcast, I talked to Kara about her journey to becoming a lawyer and how she came to leave the law and choose therapy as a post-legal career.
The path for her to become a therapist is a little bit unique. She’s originally from Canada but moved to the States for a while and was not licensed to practice law in the States.
So, she ended up going back to school for a Clinical Psychology Degree that she thought she would bring back and apply in her legal practice. Instead, today, she is a licensed therapist.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/115
This week on the Former Lawyer Podcast, we’re re-releasing a previous episode, but this is one that I feel needs to be re-shared because the information is just so important to people thinking about finding a non-legal job.
The episode is all about what to do if you are in a position where you're just like, “I just need to leave the law ASAP, and I will basically take anything. I just need to find a non-legal job,” which is something I see a lot of, here at Former Lawyer.
In this article, you’ll learn more than just how to leave the law ASAP and take any position you can find. You’ll learn the more thoughtful process that you’ll need to find a non-legal job that is really a match where you can make a fulfilling post-legal career.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/078
This week, I'm sharing my conversation with Lauren Tetenbaum. Lauren is, of course, a former lawyer, and now, practicing therapist, licensed as a social worker that specializes in providing mental health services and advocacy related to maternal wellness. She's joining me to share her journey pursuing mental health after leaving the legal profession.
What’s interesting about Lauren’s story is that a large number of former lawyers tend to be drawn towards various helping professions including therapists.
I personally have a very strong interest in talking about mental health and making sure that other lawyers feel comfortable talking about their own mental health. In this article, you’ll learn a bit about Lauren’s journey in the legal profession and how she realized that becoming a therapist was the right path.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/114
I recently had a conversation with a Collab member about how the legal system normalizes things that really aren't normal about law firm office culture.
This likely isn’t new to you, but there are some things that we just can't talk about enough. In this epiosde, I want to talk about working from home and the impact of the pandemic on law firm office culture.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/113
This week on the podcast, we are re-releasing an episode that came out about this time last year. It's one of the most popular episodes of the podcast. This episode answers one of the biggest questions that I get, which is, “I don't want to be a lawyer anymore, what can I do?”
There are actually two dimensions to this question. When I’m asked this, it’s usually like, “I don't want to be a lawyer. What are my other career options? And, trust me, I know it’s frustrating. When I realized that I did not want to be a lawyer, I literally had no idea what to do next.
We’re on this one-way track to becoming a lawyer, and once you realize that the law isn’t the right fit for you, it can be extremely overwhelming to think about what else you can do for a career.
Listen in to get the answer to what you can do when you realize that you don’t want to be a lawyer.
See show notes at formerlawyer.com/066
It’s time to talk about a part of Biglaw that truly exemplifies what is so problematic with the structure of the legal system and how it creates the toxic work environment of Biglaw firms.
Speaking from my own experience, one of the most maddening things about a Biglaw work environment and being a Biglaw associate is that no one is responsible for anything.
At the same time, everyone is responsible for everything. This is specific to those who supervise the associates, the partners. They have the power, but little accountability.
Listen to learn more about the imbalance of responsibility and authority in a Biglaw work environment and how the system is fixed to burden Biglaw associates.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/112
On the latest episode of the Former Lawyer Podcast, I spoke with Nhu-Y Le, Vice President of Client Services at Legalpad. Legalpad is a business immigration company that helps startups immigrate their founders and other talent to the United States.
I think Y’s story is really helpful in the sense that she illustrates how you can make small moves over time and still end up in a place that works for you. Listen to hear more about Y’s story and to hear some advice if you’re starting to feel unsure that the law is the right path for you.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/111
Annie Little is an ICF-certified career coach and a former lawyer. Her company is called JD Nation, which was founded in 2012. In 2013, Annie left her position in real estate finance. Since then, she’s been coaching lawyers to help them land and succeed in their ideal jobs.
On the latest episode of the Former Lawyer Podcast, I was joined by Annie Little to talk about a topic that isn’t covered enough. The topic is what you can expect to pay when you’re looking for career coaching as a lawyer.
In this article, I’ll be reviewing what we discussed about the pros and cons of one-on-one career coaching and working in a group. We’ll also be sharing our own experiences in career coaching for lawyers and what we’ve observed.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/110
Recently, I was sent an article from one of the listeners of the Former Lawyer Podcast. This article, entitled Why Former Lawyers Are Bitter Sometimes, seems to be premised on two flawed assumptions.
The first, that former lawyers who are vocal about their negative experiences in a legal profession are doing so because they're bitter. The other one is that being vocal about your negative experiences in legal practice is proof of bitterness. Neither of those assumptions is true.
This speaks to a larger conversation that we need to be having about the legal profession. It closely relates to issues that you are definitely running into if you are unhappy as a lawyer and are considering leaving. Listen to hear more about my take on the article, as I shed some light on the perspective that the author missed.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/109
Debi Yadegari is a former lawyer who worked in biglaw and in-house law. These days, she runs Villyge, a company that helps organizations support working parents. This company came out of her own experience of observing the workplace culture and lack of support for working parents in biglaw and in-house law firms.
She saw how working parents, or any human being who wanted to have interests and a life outside of work, were not being supported by their employers. Like many of us, this story started with a passion to make a change in the world. While Debi was able to do that, she eventually realized that it was all too much.
After leaving the law because of the workplace culture, she launched Villyge, becoming a working mother of five. Keep reading to learn about Debi’s journey in law and her journey to creating Villyge.
Shownotes formerlawyer.com/108
In your legal career, one of the most common things you’ll see is people leaving. You want to leave the law too, but you don’t want to leave the workload behind for someone else or because you feel you owe your firm.
Unfortunately, none of this is true. In reality, you are just a widget. You serve a purpose, and when the time comes, they can and will replace you. The loyalty you have to your firm just isn’t replicated by the top-level decision-makers.
As unfortunate as it sounds, this knowledge can actually propel your decision to leave the law for good. Keep reading to learn more about widgets, loyalty in the legal industry, and how you can break free from it all without feeling guilty!
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/107
Tarzan Kay is a copywriter that also teaches other people how to write better copy, specifically for emails. I asked Tarzan to join men on the Former Lawyer Podcast after I listened to an interview with her on another podcast.
In that interview, she spoke about leaving law school during her third year. Her story is unique in terms of the fact that she realized that law was not for her before practicing law. She dropped out of law school with only a few classes left.
After leaving law school, it took her three years and some additional motivation to find her way back into the world as a copywriter. Listen in to hear more about Tarzan’s journey in leaving law school and how you can find an alternative career to law.
Shownotes formerlawyer.com/106
This week on the podcast, I am super excited to share with you a preview of the first episode of a secret pop-up podcast series called “The Simple Five-Step Framework to Identify an Alternative Career that You Actually Like” that I have just released.
This series is available for a limited time, until September 8th, partially in celebration of the starting of the first Guided Track in the Collaborative on September 9th.
If you want to get this secret pop-up podcast and learn more about this 5-step framework, just head to formerlawyer.com/popup and put in your name and email. I definitely recommend that you do it as soon as you hear this because it will be available only for registrants and until 5:00 PM on the 8th, I won’t be posting about it more on the site like this, so listen before then if you're interested.
And to give you a sample of what’s included in the series, here’s what the first episode is all about.
Shownotes formerlawyer.com/105
There’s one thing you need to know about being miserable as a lawyer: it is not normal. I want to say that again, it’s not normal to be miserable in your job.
I often see lawyers who think that it is normal since everyone around them is miserable in their jobs. Even though their complaint is not so much about the hard work that goes into being a lawyer, but about the indignities that they suffer from colleagues and other people, somehow we have accepted that being miserable at work is normal, even to be expected.
That is especially true for someone like me who went straight from undergrad to law school. You can have an outlook that goes sheer misery is just part of having a “real job” and being part of the “working world”.
I want to be as clear as possible, sheer misery as a lawyer is not normal.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/104
Maya Markovich is the Chief Growth Officer at Nextlaw Labs, an innovation company in the legal tech industry. Maya pioneered her way to this position after her jump from practicing law. Her passion to create influential change was her driving force, and with that, Maya found a post-legal career that she’s extremely talented at, and most importantly, that she is passionate about.
In this episode, we talk about Maya’s journey from practicing law to her post-legal career in legal tech. Keep reading to learn about her realization that practicing law wasn’t the right path and what she did to find the perfect post-legal career.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/103
We recently started a new series of episodes where I will be interviewing some members of The Collaborative to hear their stories and experience with the membership. In this episode, we are joined by Jamie, who is sharing what transitioning out of the law looks like. Jamie intends to leave by the end of the year.
As always, my goal with the podcast and membership is to help lawyers taking the bold step of leaving the law do so easily. Transitioning out of the law is no easy feat, especially when the law was your dream career.
If you find yourself in a similar situation, you’ll enjoy hearing Jamie talk to us about her journey into the legal profession, how it has been for her, and how The Collaborative is helping her get ready to transition out of the law.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/102
For those who may be new, Former Lawyer is run by me, Sarah Cottrell. Through my work with Former Lawyer, I help those that are trying to transition from a legal career and into something that’s really meaningful for them.
This is part two of the story of my journey transitioning from a legal career and into starting Former Lawyer, as interviewed by Jessica Medina.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/101
To celebrate the 100th episode of The Former Lawyer Podcast, I’m sharing something a little different than usual, an interview with me about how I transitioned out of the law and began Former Lawyer.
I first shared my story on the very first episode of the podcast two years ago, but I didn't go into a ton of detail around how I transitioned out of the law and that was a long time ago, so I wanted to share a little bit more of my story.
To help with this, Jessica Medina, a former Biglaw lawyer turned financial coach and accredited financial counselor, is going to interview me. This is going to be the first half of our conversation because we had so much to talk about. This is basically my story in the same format that you typically hear other people's stories.
I'm really excited for you to enjoy this episode, we talked about some things about transitioning out of the law that I haven't talked about before.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/100
Like you, quitting law did not come easy to me.
I distinctly remember sitting on the couch with my laptop in our house, scrolling through Indeed — because that was where jobs were posted back in the day — and having no idea what I wanted to do next. I was miserable and was willing to pay any price to get someone to tell me what to do.
Fortunately, no one did.
I know how it feels to be unhappy about your job as a lawyer and unsure of your next steps. You ask yourself questions like “What do I like? What work would be interesting to me outside of what I'm doing now?” but you cannot decide what you should be doing instead.
You are not alone. I work with many lawyers who are quitting law but are uncertain of what to do afterward. What you need to do is to approach the process differently to figure out what you want. That way, you get a solution perfect for you.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/099
As you know, my podcast and membership, the Collaborative, is all about helping lawyers who feel they want to leave the law determine what they want to do instead, and how to do it.
Usually, I share the stories of guests who have left the law already or want to leave the law, they are other “former lawyers” who are ready to share their stories. Now, we’re kicking off a new series of episodes where I am going to be interviewing some of my clients who are in the Collaborative.
The Collaborative is confidential, so we are calling today’s guest “Anon” to protect her anonymity, but she’s been gracious enough to share her experiences with us to help dispel those misconceptions about the process of making a career change and how the Collaborative is facilitating her transition.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/098
One of the most common searches I get from lawyers thinking of leaving law is “How bad is it to have a resume gap as a lawyer?” Or what they are really asking, "How bad is it to just quit my job without something else lined up and take that time to figure out what I want next?"
To put a rest to most of your concerns, I’d say the answer is a resounding no, not as much as you think.
In my experience, it’s a far more common that lawyers think of career gaps as some kind of unforgivable sin. In reality, it depends a great deal on what you do with that time and how you potentially explain it during later interviews.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/097
Rachael Philbin is a legal project manager and former lawyer, who shows us that we don’t have to stray too far from the law if we’re ready to stop being a lawyer. There are many lawyer-adjacent roles that exist in the legal industry.
In this episode, Rachael shares with us how she went from litigator to a legal project manager and what to consider if you are thinking the same. She did this recently inside a legal project management panel we had in The Collaborative, she shared more about her experiences and how she decided this was the right career move for her.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/096
So you’ve decided to seek the help of a lawyer career coach to help you redirect your work path? That’s a good first step.
You obviously want a change in your current work life but you may have some misgivings in terms of where you’re headed. It’s not an easy situation, and a good lawyer career coach should be able to help you navigate this transition.
But as someone who went through the same predicament, I learned that there are certain vital things that must be present in a lawyer career coaching experience that will enable you to successfully make that change. Otherwise, you might find yourself more confused than when you were trying to figure things out on your own.
A good career coach should be able to lead you in the right direction, not drag you to a formulaic path that’s not going to work out for you in the end.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/095
Nnamdi Nwaezeapu is a law school student, entrepreneur, and author of Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer: How to Pursue Your Dreams Without Giving Your Parents A Heart Attack. His book is geared towards children of immigrants who are navigating and deciding what to do as a career and whether to pursue being a doctor, lawyer or engineer or take an alternative path.
This is part two of our conversation with Nnamdi where we dive into the mindset and fear of career change that lawyers experience when considering alternative career paths.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/094
The subject of biglaw burnout amongst lawyers is often talked about. Recently, there have been many articles talking about biglaw burnout, and particularly how associates in biglaw are experiencing burnout because of the way that many of biglaw firms were operating in 2020 and into 2021.
People who are experiencing biglaw burnout have a common set of erroneous beliefs about what they're experiencing. Here's the thing that is most important to remember if you're someone who's in this position, the system is designed to burn you out.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/093
Nnamdi Nwaezeapu is a law school student, entrepreneur, and author of Doctor, Lawyer, Engineer: How to Pursue Your Dreams Without Giving Your Parents A Heart Attack.
On this episode Nnamdi shares how his experience as a first generation student shaped his decision to pursue his entrepreneurial interests and create a resource for others grappling making an alternative career choice.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/092
On this episode, Sarah answers the common question, "How do I know when I'm at the point that I need to hire a career coach?". She has one simple answer and reframing question for you before you hire a coach.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/091
Jennifer Park decided to chart her own path after law school, working for a legal tech company instead of Biglaw.
On this episode, Jennifer shares why she decided this path was right for her, how she made the tough decision despite external pressure, and how you can get into legal tech or another booming industry with the skills you have.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/090
On this episode, Sarah breaks down her take on the common question, is now the time to leave the law?
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/089
Katherine Porter is a former lawyer turned consultant at her firm The Resource Woman, who now helps law firms cultivate a culture that attracts people and invites them to actually want to stay.
On this episode of the podcast, Katherine shares how the idea of Designing Your Life and human-centered design changed her career trajectory and is now changing the culture of firms that are forward-thinking.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/088
Heather Horton is a lawyer by training who now operates her own grief recovery company, The H-Squared Group, LLC.
On this episode of the podcast, Heather Shares how she moved from accounting to law and now into her current role advocating for and teaching stigma-free grief recovery for lawyers and non-lawyers alike.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/087
Loly Orozco left a prestigious clerkship and career as a financial restructuring lawyer to run her stationery design company, Little Postage House.
In this episode, she shares how hard it can be to leave the “machine” of big law, why it’s worth it for some, the importance of reconnecting to ourselves, and how her clerkship changed her path.
See Show notes at formerlawyer.com/086
Ivy Grey left a bankruptcy legal practice to work in legal tech. How did she do it? A mix of her mindset, skillset, and recognizing that there isn’t just “one” way for lawyers to grow their careers.
In this episode, she shares more about what legal tech is, how we can use our mindset to find new career paths, and the importance of creative problem solving in law.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/085
Jonathan Liu hated public speaking and basically everything about litigation. Even so, he spent 7 years as a litigator before leaving the law for a career in real estate.
On today's episode of the podcast, Jonathan shares how he figured out it was time for him to leave the law, and how he developed his career as a real estate agent and investor.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/084.
Robert Ingalls practiced criminal law, civil litigation, and estate planning before deciding to leave the law and start his company, Lawpods, which produces podcasts for law firms.
On this episode of the podcast, Robert shares about how his podcasting hobby turned into a full-time career that he loves.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/083.
Many lawyers harbor a secret dream of one day getting to write for a living. Today on the podcast I'm sharing my conversation with Marie Sotelo, who left legal practice after 10 years and built a career as a full-time freelance writer.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/082.
Lawyers often make career choices based on what's prestigious, but prestige is a liar. Here's why it's hurting your career satisfaction and can sabotage any moves that you make.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/081.
Today I'm sharing about something that happened to one of my guests after they were on the show, which turns into a bit of a Biglaw rant. I also talk about why I created Former Lawyer.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/080.
Pia Thompson practiced law for years even though it felt wrong to her. On today's episode, Pia shares how she figured out who she is and what she wanted, and how she found her way to a career she loves as a home organizer and a KonMari consultant-in-training.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/079.
In last week's episode, Janelle Christian shared about how she learned to prioritize herself over her job.
In today's episode, she shares about how that included moving from a big firm in D.C. to one in Atlanta to make more space for her life, and ultimately, building a six-figure side business that enabled her to leave Biglaw.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/077.
Janelle Christian skipped the LSAT twice, and only took it on her third go-round because her parents drove her to the testing site.
She says, "My soul was screaming to not be a lawyer, but I still felt like it was what people wanted me to do. It was the right path, it was the prestigious path."
In this first part of our two-part conversation, Janelle shares about her early career as a lawyer and how she came to learn that she could prioritize herself over her work.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/076.
Natasha Alladina started her legal career in Biglaw.
But a few years in, she knew it was wrong for her, and so she decided to explore other options.
Her path through jobs in public service, recruiting, and policy helped her figure out what she truly wanted to do—and how to figure out how to move towards what you want, versus simply running away from what you don't want.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/075.
There are a lot of different obstacles that you may be running into as you consider leaving legal practice, but three of the biggest are Lawyer Brain, the Lawyer Bubble, and Other People's Opinions. Today, I'm sharing how to recognize these obstacles and how to defeat them.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/074.
If you're a lawyer and you're feeling burned out, this episode is for you.
I share about burnout, how it works, how it relates to our nervous system, and why it's so important for lawyers to understand the root causes of burnout.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/073.
Lawyers are so often expected to operate as though they are unaffected by the events going on around them. This is especially challenging when we are faced with traumatic events like last week's attack on the Capitol. I want to remind you that if you're struggling, it's not because you're doing anything wrong. This feels hard because it is hard. Don't buy into the lie that you should be unaffected.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/072.
For the first podcast episode of 2021, I'm sharing about one of the times that I cancelled a planned vacation while practicing law, why the law was wrong for me, and what other lawyers can learn from my story.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/071.
One of the most common things that I hear from lawyers who are contemplating changing careers is that they are worried about how to manage their student loans. So today on the podcast, I'm sharing the audio of a workshop that Lauryn Williams, a consultant with Student Loan Planner, presented to the Collaborative last month all about student loan debt considerations for lawyers.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/070.
After 20 years of working as a lawyer for the Department of Labor, Annette Choti decided to take the leap into digital marketing and search engine optimization (SEO) for small and solo law firms. She's sharing her story of how she escaped "beige world" on today's episode!
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/069.
Wondering about the Former Lawyer Collaborative? In this episode, I talk about how the Collaborative works, past and upcoming workshops, and some of the amazing feedback I've received from members.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/068.
One of the most important things that lawyers need to do if they want to successfully figure out an alternative career is to develop self-compassion and to learn how to be kind to themselves. You may be skeptical, but in this podcast episode, I'm sharing why self-compassion is essential to finding career satisfaction and figuring out what's next for you.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/067.
"I don't want to be a lawyer anymore—what can I do?" This is the question that most unhappy lawyers find themselves asking when they realize that they want to leave the law. In today's episode, I'm talking about some of the answers to this question.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/066.
For most lawyers, it's hard to admit that we're struggling—even to ourselves. Today, I'm talking about my experience with clinical anxiety, and why it's so often mistaken for "typical" lawyer stress.
Megan Smiley and I are kindred spirits. We just met earlier this year, but she started her podcast, The Lawyer's Escape Pod, the same week that I started The Former Lawyer Podcast. I love what she's doing in the world, and I can't wait to share it with you!
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/064.
In this episode, I'm sharing my conversation with Geoffrey Stein. After more than 10 years of legal practice, Geoffrey went to art school and became a full-time artist and portrait painter.
Full show notes at formerlawyer.com/063.
Heather Yurovsky went to law school unsure of whether she would practice law long-term. After a year of practice, the verdict was in (no pun intended)—legal practice was not for her.
So, Heather embarked on a new career path, learning how to simply take the next step when it revealed itself to her. If you've ever worried about needing to figure out the perfect next step or find a job that's the perfect fit for you in order to leave the law, this episode is for you.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/062.
Valerie Beck felt like she didn't fit in from the moment she arrived in law school. After several Biglaw jobs and an in-house gig, she decided law was truly not the place for her and decided to forge her own career path in the world of chocolate.
Nearly 20 years ago, she started a business providing chocolate tours to people in her hometown of Chicago. She now runs her own business as a branding and marketing consultant to small-batch chocolate producers.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/061.
Last week, Jessica Medina shared all about how she ended up in law school, and then Biglaw, before deciding to leave to take a job at the SEC. In today's episode, Jessica shares about how she realized after making the move to the SEC that it wasn't just Biglaw that she didn't enjoy—she didn't enjoy being a lawyer. She explains all about how she made a plan to get out, and how she figured out what she wanted to do next—financial counseling.
Jessica Medina went to law school thinking she would work for the government and change the world for the better. But during her 2L year at Columbia Law School, she gave birth to twins and became a single mom. Biglaw seemed the inevitable and obviously correct choice for her if she wanted her family to have a good life.
But after eight years in Biglaw, Jessica decided not to put herself up for partner and instead, to pursue a different career—which wasn't an easy decision.
In this episode, I'm sharing the first half of our conversation, where she talks about how she ended up in law school, and then Biglaw, and why she decided to leave.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/059.
Hobbies and side hustles can seem like a distraction when you're on the law firm treadmill. But cultivating interests outside the law is often the ticket to figuring out what you really want to do career-wise. In this episode, Helynn Nelson shares about becoming a level 3 sommelier—and how it helped her figure out that she wanted to leave the law, and what she wanted to look for next.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/058.
Have you ever looked at the people more senior than you at your firm, the partners and senior associates, and thought, "I don't want your life!" So did today's guest, Helynn Nelson.
Helynn landed a coveted employment litigation associate role in Biglaw, but the lifestyle of a Biglaw lawyer was simply not how she imagined spending the rest of her working life. When she got pregnant with her first daughter, she decided to make some big changes that ultimately led her to her current role as an HR professional at Google.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/057.
Who am I if I'm not a lawyer? My guest today, former lawyer Meghan Smith, shares about her own journey from big firm lawyer, to seemingly perfect job in an insurance firm, to her current gig as a joy coach for high-achieving moms. Along the way, one of the most significant questions that Meghan had to grapple with was: who am I if I'm not an intellectual superstar? Today she's sharing about how she confronted this question and found her way to a career that's even more fulfilling than she expected.
Do you think that you're too old to change careers and quit law? My guest today, Hector Chavez, decided to make the move from law to nursing right before his 40th birthday. He knew he wasn't happy with his legal career. But he worried that starting over at 40 was foolish.
Today he's sharing about how his worries were totally unfounded and why you shouldn't let the imaginary barrier of age stop you from making a career change that's right for you.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/055.
What do you do when you realize none of your strengths are rewarded in Biglaw—and many of your strengths are actually considered weaknesses? Hear how Alex Su went from a top law school to a top Biglaw firm, realized it wasn't for him, found his way into legal tech sales, and learned some important lessons on the way. Full show notes at formerlawyer.com/054.
Annie Little worked as a commercial lending and real estate lawyer for 7 years before allowing herself to consider the possibility that there was a better path for her.
In this conversation, we talk about how she made the transition to running her own lawyer career coaching business, why moving towards something is so much more hopeful and empowering than running away from something else, how Annie busted through some limiting beliefs about what smart, capable women should do when it comes to career and family, and some of the unique challenges lawyers face when it comes to their identity.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/053.
This week I'm reflecting on the one-year anniversary of The Former Lawyer Podcast!
I'm sharing some of what I've learned this year, and how you can apply these lessons in your own situation.
The number one thing that I have learned in this last year is: don't wait until you feel ready.
When I started this podcast a year ago, I knew virtually nothing about podcasting or online business.
I know a lot more now, but I'm not sure that even now I would say that I "feel ready" (whatever that means!).
So today I'm sharing why I don't think you should wait until you're "ready" in order to take steps towards what you want.
Full show notes at formerlawyer.com/052.
We know that the mental health stats regarding lawyers are grim, but what is it really like to experience anxiety and panic as a lawyer?
In this conversation (the first of two parts), Annie Little and I take a deep dive into our own experiences with generalized anxiety disorder and panic disorder. Annie has worked as a lawyer career coach for the last 7 years, and before that, practiced commercial lending and real estate law for 7 years.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/051.
Is quitting law without another job lined up a bad idea? When you're super miserable as a lawyer, you often find yourself wondering: can I just quit? My guest on today's podcast, Andrea Yang, did just that. After seven years as a lawyer, she quit her job and moved back in with her parents with no idea what she would do next. Hear how she found her way into and out of law.
Show notes at formerlawyer.com/050.
Law is my second career—can I still leave? A lot of lawyers ask themselves this question. In this episode, Mary Eberle shares all about how she left the law, even though it was her second career, and even though she had been made a shareholder at her law firm! Hear how Mary found her way to her current career as a genetic genealogist and her advice to anyone who feels stuck in an unfulfilling legal career.
Full show notes and all the links at formerlawyer.com/049.
In the second half of our conversation, Lauren Bernadett shares about the challenges she faced leaving her high-paying law firm job as a single person, trying to figure out what was next when she didn't have a "dream job" in mind, why what she's gained from leaving the law far outweighs what she's lost, and what she learned from listening to this podcast! Show notes at formerlawyer.com/048.
Lauren Bernadett spent a lot of time negotiating a full-ride scholarship to law school so that she wouldn't find herself trapped in a firm job that she hated. Five years in, she realized that despite her careful planning, she was still at a firm and felt stuck. In the first half of our conversation, hear how Lauren ended up in law school, how she figured out how to go debt free, and the moment that she realized that, despite her best efforts, she still felt stuck.
Are you worried that quitting your job or leaving the law entirely means that you're a quitter?
Most lawyers think that quitting things is bad and wrong. On episode 046, I'm sharing why it's okay to be a quitter, and why it could be the best thing for your career and your life.
On episode 045, we're tackling another myth that keeps lawyers stuck: the sunk costs fallacy.
Have you ever thought, "If I leave my job/the law, I'll be wasting all the time and money I spent becoming a lawyer!"
Of course you have, because literally every lawyer thinks this at some point (or daily).
In this episode, I talk about how to reframe your thoughts about waste when it comes to your career so that you have a better chance of creating a career and life that you love.
Free First Steps To Leaving The Law Guide—> formerlawyer.com/guide
Career Clarity Intensive Live Workshop—> formerlawyer.com/live
On episode 044 of the podcast, I'm talking about another myth that keeps lawyers stuck in jobs they hate: that there's something wrong with them because they don't like their job.
There are so many lawyers out there who think that not liking their job is an indication of some kind of failure on their part.
It's not.
Listen in to hear about my experience with this phenomenon and why it's so insidious.
Download the free guide, First Steps To Leaving The Law—> formerlawyer.com/guide
Register for the Career Clarity Intensive Live Workshop—> formerlawyer.com/live
On episode 43 of the podcast, we're kicking off a series where we'll be talking about some of the myths that keep lawyers stuck in jobs they hate. This week: the myth of the perfect next step. Spoiler alert: there is no perfect next step! Listen in to hear why that's a good thing.
Have you found yourself crying in your office, or on the way to the office, or when working at home? Crying because of your job is weirdly normalized in the legal profession. In episode 042 of the podcast, I'm talking about why your job should not make you cry.
Join the next cohort of the Collaborative that starts June 1—> formerlawyer.com/collab
In episode 041 of the podcast, I'm sharing why I think Biglaw is inhospitable to human life (spicy!), and why I think it's particularly important for women in Biglaw to figure out what they want from their careers.
If you want to be the first to hear all the spicy takes I have about legal practice, join my email list by downloading the First Steps To Leaving The Law guide at formerlawyer.com/guide.
In episode 040 of the podcast, I'm sharing two reasons that I'll be doing things a little differently on the podcast for a bit, and why it's important to remember that there are some things that you can't think your way through.
In Episode 039 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, I’m sharing the second half of my conversation with Sarah Rutledge Fischer. (You can listen to part 1 here.)
Sarah is an artist and art teacher. She spent 3 1/2 years in biglaw before left and found her way to her current career as an artist.
In the second half of our conversation, Sarah shares about:
- The shame she felt during her biglaw experience;
- Feeling like there was something fundamentally wrong with her as a person because she wasn’t finding the right fit in her firm;
- The disturbing parallels between biglaw and abusive interpersonal relationships;
- The weirdness of working with her firm’s in-house career counselor;
- The thrill of winning asylum for her pro bono client the day before she left the firm for good;
- How an unexpected opportunity for her husband convinced them to uproot and move from California to the gulf coast of Alabama, closer to family;
- Thinking that she would return to the practice of law eventually, and finally admitting to herself that she just didn’t want to;
- Deciding to pursue a writing career, and how her “shame-based achievement-seeking lawyer hat” worked against her;
- Why being put in charge of the weekly figure-drawing class she had begun attending was helpful in moving her towards her new career (perhaps not for the reason that you might think);
- Her “cartoon hammer on the head” moment when she realized that her art could be her next career;
- Why she thinks “follow your curiosity” is much better advice than “follow your passion”;
- How she still has to actively work to combat the grind mentality of biglaw in her life now;
- Why she works to cultivate compassion for her former self;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Free First Steps guide—> formerlawyer.com/guide
- Former Lawyer Fundamentals—> formerlawyer.com/fundamentals
- Former Lawyer Collaborative—> formerlawyer.com/collab
- Connect with Sarah:
-
- sarahrutledgefischer@gmail.com
- instagram.com/sarahrutledgefischer
- facebook.com/sarahrutledgefischer
In Episode 038, I’m sharing the first half of my conversation with Sarah Rutledge Fischer. (Look out for part 2 next week! We covered so many important themes, I’ve split our conversation into two episodes.)
Sarah is an artist and art teacher. She spent 3 1/2 years in biglaw before left and found her way to her current career as an artist. In today’s episode, we talk about lots of things, including her struggles with depression and the inhumane environment of many big law firms. This is an important conversation and I can’t wait for you to hear it.
In the first half of our conversation, Sarah shares about:
- Loving art from a young age, but never allowing herself to consider it as a career possibility;
- Her winding path to law school;
- Why she took for granted the human element in her pre-law school jobs that ended up being missing from her work as a lawyer;
- Why she found her law school to have less of a feeling of grim despair than most;
- How she ended up in biglaw even though it did not align with her interests;
- Why the law firm track is “intoxicating” and “disorienting”;
- Knowing that the firm wasn’t a right fit for her from right off the bat, but feeling trapped;
- Experiencing intense depression while in biglaw, and not even realizing that was what was happening at first;
- Feeling trapped by the mindset in the legal profession and by maintaining the life she and her husband had established;
- Navigating biglaw as a newly pregnant woman who didn’t want to get sidelined, but also was desperate to get out;
- A story that will be familiar to anyone out there who knows the reputation of biglaw firms when it comes to quietly letting people go;
- Important reminders for anyone struggling with depression;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Join a badass group of women in a confidential community where you can explore other career options and get answers to your burning career questions.—> formerlawyer.com/collab
- Connect with Sarah:
-
- sarahrutledgefischer@gmail.com
- instagram.com/sarahrutledgefischer
- facebook.com/sarahrutledgefischer
In Episode 037 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, I’m sharing my conversation with Dr. Jan Newman. Jan is a licensed clinical psychologist and executive coach who works with multi-passionate high achievers who want to level up their lives. She is a published author and researcher and a frequent speaker on topics related to emotional intelligence, interpersonal effectiveness, and psychological flexibility. In her former life, she was an intellectual property attorney in Biglaw.
In this conversation, Jan shares about:
- Going to law school because people told her she was good at persuading people;
- Hearing her family talk about law being a prestigious profession, and telling her that she would make a good lawyer (although her mom vehemently denies that this happened!);
- Why she thinks the legal profession can’t live up to its hype;
- Deciding she was going to leave the law before she actually left (and what that means);
- Realizing her first day of law school that it was a mistake;
- The moment that she realized law was not for her (and also that everyone she worked with had lost their minds);
- Why, after she decided she was going to leave the law, she lateraled from her regional law firm to biglaw;
- Approaching her decision to leave law like a series of experiments;
- Realizing she was getting hooked by the money in biglaw (and what she did about it);
- Applying to psychology PhD programs twice before she actually left biglaw;
- How she uses her background as a lawyer in her psychology practice now;
- The three books she recommends all lawyers read;
- Why unhappy lawyers often believe they can think their way out of their problems (and why they’re wrong);
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Free First Steps to Leaving the Law guide—> formerlawyer.com/guide
- Apply to secure your spot in the Former Lawyer Collaborative application queue—> formerlawyer.com/collab
- Books Jan mentioned in this episode:
-
- Happiness Trap
- Confidence Gap
- Emotional Agility
- Ways to connect with Jan:
-
- drjannewman.com
- jannewmancoaching.com
- https://twitter.com/jan_newman
- https://www.facebook.com/drjannewman/
- https://www.instagram.com/drjannewman/
- Free Coaching Offer: Dr. Newman is offering a free 45-minute coaching call to the first 3 lawyers who reach out to her who are interested in making changes in their lives and/or work and would be willing to answer some questions that would help her design a new group coaching program for lawyers.
We're doing things a little differently on today's episode. It's my first solo episode since all the way back in episode 001, when I shared a little bit about my own journey out of the law.
With everything that's happening with the COVID-19 pandemic, I wanted to share a few thoughts that I hope are helpful for those of you who aren't happy in your job right now.
In the episode, I share four things that I think unhappy lawyers need to know right now.
In Episode 035 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, I’m sharing my conversation with Tai Dixon. Tai left legal practice for the the world of non-profit leadership, and last year, opened her own consulting practice where she specializes in workplace culture and liberatory leadership.
In this conversation, Tai shares about:
- How growing up with a parent who was a lawyer affected her decision to go to law school;
- Believing that becoming a doctor or a lawyer was the best way to contribute to society;
- Detouring from her path to law school to teach with Teach For America because she wanted to make a difference;
- Loving teaching, but being afraid to love it because she thought she would regret not going to law school;
- Climbing the rungs of the ladder to a legal career without asking herself whether she actually wanted to be there;
- Well-meaning family and friends reacting much more positively to her decision to be a lawyer than her choice to teach for two years with TFA;
- Going to law school and getting a biglaw job because she thought that’s what she should do to achieve her goals;
- Quickly realizing that firm life was not for her, but not being willing to make a move right away;
- How the downturn in 2008 made her feel like she should just be happy to have a legal job;
- Knowing that legal practice wasn’t for her because her firm job was about as good as it could be, and she still wasn’t happy;
- Realizing that it took a lot of work to get to a place where she felt stuck;
- Getting a great review, being asked at the end if she was happy, and bursting into tears;
- Realizing that no amount of good work and checking the boxes was going to make her happy doing what she was doing;
- Taking a huge pay cut to move into a field she was more passionate about;
- The three types of reactions from lawyers at her firm when she announced she was leaving;
- Why her fears about money came from the narrative of law practice;
- How she measures success now;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Free First Steps to Leaving the Law guide—> formerlawyer.com/guide
- Connect with Tai on Instagram or Facebook
In Episode 034 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, I’m sharing my conversation with Tyler and April Roberts. Tyler, a former lawyer, and his wife April, who has a background in marketing, co-founded NOMOS Marketing, a marketing agency for lawyers.
In this conversation, Tyler & April share about:
- What it’s like to be the spouse of a law student;
- How April found out that Tyler had passed the bar before he did;
- Why even before Tyler started law school, they didn’t plan on him practicing law forever;
- How a personal tragedy set Tyler on the path to law school out of a desire to help others;
- How they switched their thinking about paying off Tyler’s law school loans;
- How the idea for their business grew organically from the jobs they were already doing (lawyering and marketing);
- What it’s like to work full-time with your spouse;
- How your background as a lawyer can both help you and hold you back;
- How working for an entrepreneur with a legal background helped Tyler see how his law degree could be used in innovative ways;
- How to communicate with your non-lawyer spouse about why you’re unhappy as a lawyer;
- How they help lawyers differentiate themselves;
- Their best advice for lawyers who don’t love their jobs;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- The doors to the Former Lawyer Collaborative are open through April 1st! The Collaborative is my support community for high-achieving woman in legal practice who are interested in exploring other career options. Join here—> formerlawyer.com/collab
- Connect with Tyler and April’s business, NOMOS Marketing, on the website, Instagram, or Facebook
In Episode 033 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, I’m sharing my conversation with Gaby Abrams. Gaby left legal practice five years ago and opened an online stationery shop on Etsy, Casa Confetti.
In this conversation, Gaby shares about:
- Thinking all through college she would head to med school, and then deciding to go to law school instead;
- Going to law school thinking that you can do anything with a law degree (and why she thinks that was misguided);
- Her dad, who was a litigator, telling her “don’t be a lawyer, whatever you do!”, and why she didn’t listen;
- Deciding very early on that she didn’t want to be a lawyer, and going into financial recruiting after law school;
- What listening to her body has to do with deciding not to practice law;
- Making the decision to practice immigration law for a time so that she would never think “what if” about pursuing legal practice;
- How she ended up starting her stationery business on Etsy in order to bridge from her firm job to whatever she would end up doing next during her unpaid maternity leave;
- How she realized that her stationery business could actually be her full-time career after making over $150k in her first two years in business;
- How she flipped the way she thought about intelligence;
- One of the biggest myths she thinks people believe about lawyers and their success in other careers;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- The doors to the Former Lawyer Collaborative are open! The Collaborative is my support community for high-achieving woman in legal practice who are interested in exploring other career options. Join here—> formerlawyer.com/collab
- Connect with Gaby on Instagram, her website, or by email, or with Casa Confetti on the website or Instagram
In Episode 032 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, I’m sharing my conversation with Shunta Grant. Shunta left legal practice in 2015 to run her then side-hustle, Because of Zoe Designs, full-time. She has since started a second business teaching women how to build businesses on the other side of busy, and is launching a third business, the Best Today™ Brand, to help all women learn how to build lives on the other side of busy.
In this conversation, Shunta shares about:
- Going to a meeting in high school that was supposed to be for students interested in student council that turned out to be a meeting for mock trial, and discovering she loved mock trial and was great at it;
- Applying to college thinking that she was going to be pre-med, and why she chose law school instead;
- Having a “checklist” of all the things that she should accomplish in law school as a high achiever;
- How she grew to dislike her law firm job so much that when Sunday evening would roll around, she could feel the dread creeping in;
- How missing a coworker’s wedding and being forced to work on a planned trip was the last straw for her;
- The exact moment she turned to her husband and told him she was going to quit;
- How she knew that going to another law firm wouldn’t fix the problem;
- Why she’s so passionate about the idea that YOU get to choose what to do with YOUR life;
- How she started making hair bows for her daughter while still working at the law firm and turned it into a business, Because of Zoe Designs;
- Why you can be both logical and creative (and don’t have to choose);
- Leaving her law firm to run Because of Zoe full-time;
- How her work with Because of Zoe led to a second business helping women grow their own businesses and a podcast, the Business, Life, and Joy Podcast;
- How her work with women on their businesses has now transitioned into working with all women to help them get clear on what they want and show up as their best;
- Why she loves Mondays now;
- How and why she created her newest product, the Best Today™ Guide;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Interested in my support community for high-achieving woman in their first decade-ish of legal practice? Join the waitlist so you don’t miss the opportunity to join as a Founding Member—> formerlawyer.com/waitlist
- Free on-demand 5-Day Career Clarity Bootcamp—> formerlawyer.com/bootcamp
- Connect with Shuna on Instagram or Facebook, listen to the Business, Life, & Joy Podcast, or pre-order the Best Today™ Guide
In Episode 031 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, I’m sharing my conversation with Adam Kol. Adam practiced tax law before leaving to become a couples financial counselor.
In this conversation, Adam shares about:
- The way that the expectations of others drove him to law school;
- Quitting his tax lawyer job at Deloitte to spend a year as an animal activist supported by his savings;
- Working at a non-profit as a lawyer supporting initiatives to combat homelessness;
- Why he started coaching people as a side hustle;
- How his life got out of balance and how he identified what needed to change;
- How getting laid off spurred him to focus on his coaching practice full-time;
- Stumbling into the niche of couples financial counseling;
- Seeing his clients’ lives change when they are able to communicate about money and problem-solve regarding their money together;
- Dealing with loved ones’ disappointment and anger about leaving his legal career;
- His advice on how to start a conversation about money for lawyers who have a partner and are wanting to make a career change;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Free on-demand 5-Day Career Clarity Bootcamp—> formerlawyer.com/bootcamp
- Former Lawyer Fundamentals—> formerlawyer.com/fundamentals
- Connect with Adam on his website, LinkedIn, Instagram, or listen to his podcast, The Equal Partners Podcast
In Episode 030 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, I’m sharing the second half of my conversation with Amy DuVall. (I shared the first half of our conversation last week in episode 029!)
After starting out in private practice, Amy spent 20 years as a lawyer and lobbyist doing environmental work in Washington D.C. In March 2018, she left that behind to study the pastry arts and open her baking business, From Politics to Pastry.
In the second half of our conversation, Amy shares about:
- How she handled her position being changed from a lawyer to a non-lawyer position and being instructed that she couldn’t hold herself out as a lawyer anymore;
- How her J.D. was her “secret weapon” during her lobbying days;
- Spending 10 years working to pass the biggest environmental bill in 25 years, succeeding, and then being hit like a ton of bricks by the question: “What’s next?”;
- Going to therapy and realizing that she should have gone sooner;
- Resisting the idea that she had anxiety because she loved what she was doing;
- Finally accepting that she had a significant problem with anxiety that was taking a toll on her body;
- How loving the substance of the work but hating the game impacted her, and why you need to figure out which you prefer;
- Realizing in therapy how being always on call and never having time for creative pursuits had drained her;
- How a simple exercise her therapist asked her to do resulted in an a-ha moment that sent her down the path of baking as a career;
- What she did when the culinary school she enrolled in closed with only 12-hours’ notice 3 months before she was supposed to start a pastry arts program;
- How she went from having no plans to start her own business to starting her own small bakery business, From Politics to Pastry;
- How she went from taking classes at Sur La Table to teaching them;
- Why you should never say never;
- and much more!
In Episode 029 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, I’m sharing the first half of my conversation with Amy DuVall. (We talked about so many important things and I couldn’t bear to cut any of it, so I’ll share the second half next week!)
After starting out in private practice, Amy spent 20 years as a lawyer and lobbyist doing environmental work in Washington D.C. In March 2018, she left that behind to study the pastry arts and open her baking business, From Politics to Pastry.
In the first half of our conversation, Amy shares about:
- How she ended up as a lobbyist;
- Why becoming a lawyer was simply a means to an end for her;
- What inspired her to pursue a career as an environmental lobbyist;
- Why she doesn’t regret going to law school;
- How she learned more than once that she liked the substance of legal work but not the game;
- What to do when you really like certain parts of your job as a lawyer, but really hate other parts;
- What she did when she realized she didn’t want the brass ring of partnership she’d been taught to chase after;
- Her job changing overnight from a lawyer to a non-lawyer position;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- First Steps to Leaving the Law Guide—> formerlawyer.com/guide
- Former Lawyer Fundamentals—> formerlawyer.com/fundamentals
- Connect with Amy on her website or on Instagram
In Episode 028 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Matt Wheat, a single dad who left the law to become a firefighter. Matt spent most of his legal career in various public interest law jobs. While he was still practicing law, Matt started serving as a volunteer firefighter, fell in love with firefighting, and ultimately left legal practice to make it his full-time career.
In this conversation, Matt shares about:
- Being “consumed” by injustice growing up, which led him to law school;
- The impact that the recession in the aughts had on his rural legal job market;
- Becoming somewhat disenchanted with the legal system as a result of his public interest work;
- Feeling like something was missing from his life, which led him to become a volunteer firefighter;
- Falling in love with firefighting, and what he loves most about it;
- Dealing with his parents’ reaction to his decision to leave the law after they supported him to get there;
- The misconceptions non-lawyers have about lawyers’ finances;
- Why it was worth it to take a paycut to leave, even though he’s a single parent;
- Why he thinks you should only go to law school if you’re motivated by more than just money;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- The Former Lawyer Resource Vault—> formerlawyer.vipmembervault.com
- Connect with Matt by email
In Episode 027 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Erin Conlon. Erin graduated from law school and landed her dream job with a plaintiff-side class action firm, only to lose her job as a result of the recession in the late 2000s. She worked on a political campaign, started performing comedy, and ultimately landed in biglaw doing electronic discovery work. She spent almost a decade as Discovery Counsel before making the leap to life and executive coaching. Erin describes herself as a warrior for possibility.
In this conversation, Erin shares about:
- Being told as a kid that she should become a lawyer and just sort of ending up on that path;
- Getting admitted to a highly ranked school and following the path of least resistance there;
- How generational expectations regarding children’s career success drove her decision-making (and drives many of us);
- Why she disagrees with the idea that “you can do anything with a law degree;”
- How she got started in comedy;
- How she dealt with the disappointment of ending up in electronic discovery after losing her litigation job as a result of the recession;
- Why she thinks it was a mistake to keep trying to get back to the kind of lawyer job that she thought she wanted;
- The moment when she realized she needed to leave the law;
- Struggling with her identity as a lawyer;
- What most high achievers actually end up working on when they start working on their career satisfaction;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Enroll in the 8 week group program—> formerlawyer.com/group
- Connect with Erin on her website or Instagram
In Episode 026 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Toya Gavin. Toya practiced law for over 10 years, eventually opening her own practice, before finding herself struggling with severe depression. After reexamining her life and her career goals, she started her company, Legally Bold, where she coaches and consults with women with J.D.s who are dissatisfied in their careers or who are trying to transform their side hustles into full-time careers. In this conversation, Toya shares about:
- Why the transition from an undergrad engineering major to law school was so jarring;
- How most law students think they’re going to snag a highly paid job, but the numbers reveal otherwise;
- Why she expected to enjoy legal practice, even though she didn’t love the law school environment;
- What practice she turned to when she realized that she didn’t like patent law (the obvious choice for her as an engineer);
- What she loved about running her own practice (that had nothing to do with legal work);
- How her “whole life shifted” when she experienced what was eventually diagnosed as clinical depression;
- The extremely high rates of depression, anxiety, and substance abuse amongst lawyers;
- Why her best friend had to tell her that what she was experiencing was not normal before she realized she should get help;
- Why being high-functioning and a lawyer poses significant obstacles to people getting help for mental health issues;
- Why everyone should see a therapist;
- How Legally Bold grew from what she learned through her own experience of depression and the knowledge that many lawyers experience the same;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Enroll in 8 Weeks to an Exit Plan—> formerlawyer.com/group
- Connect with Toya on her website, Instagram, or LinkedIn
In Episode 025 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Risa Weaver-Enion. Risa graduated from Duke Law School and worked a handful of jobs in the legal industry while she and her husband moved around the country for his job. Five years ago, Risa started her own event and wedding planning company, Risa James Events, as a side hustle, and in 2017, she transitioned to running her business full-time.
In this conversation, Risa shares about:
- Why she’s half-serious when she says she went to law school out of spite (you do not want to miss this story!);
- How she hated all the legal classes she took in undergrad and was convinced she shouldn’t go to law school;
- What receiving a breakup letter by FedEx has to do with her changing her mind and deciding to go to law school;
- Hating law school as soon as it started and seriously considering dropping out;
- Why she turned down an offer from her 2L summer firm;
- Quitting her first job as a lawyer after only one month;
- Where she got the idea to pursue event planning, and how she moved into that market;
- What made her decide to take her event and wedding planning side hustle full-time;
- Why she didn’t care what people thought when she decided not to be a lawyer anymore, and why she doesn’t think becoming a lawyer was a waste;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Enroll in 8 Weeks to an Exit Plan—> formerlawyer.com/group
- Connect with Risa on her website, Instagram, Facebook, Pinterest, or LinkedIn
In Episode 024 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Katie Aldrich. Katie practiced business litigation at a big law firm in Boston for more than five years before transitioning first into professional development for lawyers, and then into career coaching for lawyers and other professionals with Fringe Professional Development.
In this conversation, Katie shares about:
- Being told by lots of people when she was a young child that she should be a lawyer because she had a lot of opinions;
- Deciding to go to law school because it seemed easier than looking for another job when she decided she didn’t want to stay at her then-current one;
- What living on a yearly salary of $30k taught her and how it affected her law school choice;
- Why the associate to partner path in biglaw seemed so comfortable (and was a trap);
- The moment when she realized she didn’t want the job that she was headed towards in biglaw;
- Why she assumed that things would just work themselves out, and what was wrong with that assumption;
- What she did when her first job after leaving practice was not a great fit;
- Her realization that being good at a job didn’t mean she was happy or that it was the right job for her;
- Why being at a big firm can lull you into a false sense of security;
- Why leaving law involves building a new identity;
- Some helpful ways to approach figuring out what you want to do next;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Enroll in the 8-week small group program—> formerlawyer.com/group
- Connect with Katie on LinkedIn or schedule a coaching consultation call with her, or connect with Fringe Professional Development on its website, LinkedIn, or Instagram
In Episode 023 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Ami Watkin. Ami is a self-described “recovering corporate attorney,” and the co-founder of Integrated Hustle, a career and business coaching firm.
In this conversation, Ami shares about:
- Deciding to go to law school in the aftermath of the financial crash of 2008;
- Making the choice to go to law school because at the age of 24 she thought “I like smart people, I’m smart, and I want to make six-figures”;
- Knowing that she didn’t want to stay in biglaw forever, but not knowing what she was going to do next;
- Pulling her first all-nighter (and many more) in biglaw;
- Moving to a smaller firm in order to get some breathing space and time to think about what she really wanted to do next;
- Loving networking, and how she used that love in order to figure out what was next for her;
- Her best advice for how to network with ease if you want to leave the law;
- How the idea for Integrated Hustle grew organically out of what she was already doing;
- The number one thing she thinks you should do if you’re ready to leave the law;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Sign up for the free 5-Day Career Clarity Bootcamp—> formerlawyer.com/bootcamp
- Get Sarah’s free guide, First Steps to Leaving the Law—> formerlawyer.com/guide
- Connect with Ami and Integrated Hustle on the website, Instagram, or LinkedIn
In Episode 022 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Sivani Babu. Sivani worked as a federal public defender before switching careers. She is now an award-winning nature photographer and travel journalist, and the co-founder and Creative Director of the cross-genre travel magazine Hidden Compass.
In this conversation, Sivani shares about:
- Really enjoying being a federal public defender and getting up in court every day;
- Getting a “real” camera during law school and starting to take photos and display and sell her work simply as a hobby;
- The trip to Antarctica that changed the course of her career and her life;
- How the people who knew her best reacted to her decision to leave the law;
- Learning to navigate a new industry that was in the middle of massive transition;
- Being told that she needed to choose between a career in writing or a career in photography since that was how the industry worked in the past, and deciding to chart her own course;
- How she and the co-founder of Hidden Compass couldn’t find the kind of magazine that they wanted to read and write for—so they created it;
- How learning how to do new things helps you move forward with even more confidence;
- Why you should embrace your fear if you’re thinking about leaving the law;
- Why the skills that she brought from lawyering to her new career were so valuable;
- What you should consider when thinking about turning your hobby into a new career;
- Why you need to get comfortable with being uncomfortable;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Sign up for the free 5-Day Career Clarity Bootcamp—> formerlawyer.com/bootcamp
- Get Sarah’s free guide, First Steps to Leaving the Law—> formerlawyer.com/guide
- Connect with Sivani on her website, Instagram, or Twitter, or check out the Hidden Compass website, Facebook, or Instagram
In Episode 021 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Sam Vander Wielen. Sam left legal practice and has spent the last three years helping women entrepreneurs legally protect and grow their online businesses with her DIY Legal Templates and Fearlessly Legal™ Ultimate Bundle program.
In this conversation, Sam shares about:
- Why she “hated every second” of corporate litigation;
- How she got sick of her own complaining about being a lawyer;
- Being told from a young age that she should be a lawyer because she was loud and opinionated;
- Being “laser-focused” on getting into law school in undergrad, even though she didn’t know that much about law school or being a lawyer;
- Her nightmare first job where associates were paid at 1/4 of the typical rate and made to compete for a permanent position;
- Her experience with harassment and the ways in which the legal profession props up abusers;
- Winning an attorney of the year award and not even wanting to go to the ceremony;
- Desperately Googling for stories of people who have successfully left the law;
- How there’s no such thing as vacation when you have a billable target to meet, because you’re just “buying time” that you have to make up;
- The moment that changed everything for her and made her decide to leave the law;
- Putting tons of pressure on herself to have the thing she chose to do after leaving the law be “THE THING” she was going to do forever;
- Leaving the law and opening a health coaching business;
- Why making her hobbies her job was not a good choice for her;
- How just listening to what other women entrepreneurs were asking her led to her current business;
- The importance of doing the inner work to detangle who you are from what you do for work;
- Why leaving the law will not solve all of your problems;
- Her best piece of advice if you want to get out of the law;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Get Sarah’s free guide, First Steps to Leaving the Law
- Connect with Sam on Instagram, watch her YouTube channel, or visit her website
- Buy the Former Lawyer Jump Start
In Episode 020 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Catherine Zack. Six years ago, Catherine walked away from biglaw to teach yoga and meditation. Through her business, The Daily Vinyasa, Catherine teaches her clients and students how to incorporate yoga, mediation, and self-care into their daily lives.
In this conversation, Catherine shares about:
- Being as certain she should leave the law as she had been certain she should go to law school;
- How being “type A plus plus plus” put her on the path to law school;
- Making decisions based on whether she could do something, rather than whether she should;
- Enjoying her first few years in biglaw;
- How a bad breakup combined with a big case settling caused her to pause and reflect on her biglaw experience and forced her to confront the fact that she wasn’t actually that happy;
- The toll that stress took on her while working in biglaw;
- How she managed the 75% pay cut that came with leaving biglaw;
- Moving out of her own apartment into a room in her friend’s basement in order to make the move from biglaw possible;
- Why she thinks she would never have ended up with her now-husband if she hadn’t left biglaw;
- What it’s been like to go back to her law firm to offer yoga and meditation workshops;
- Learning to trust your inner voice about where to go with your career;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Get Sarah’s free guide, First Steps to Leaving the Law
- Connect with Catherine on Instagram, by email, or on The Daily Vinyasa website
- Buy the Former Lawyer Jump Start
In Episode 019 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Morgan Hall. Morgan left legal practice after 4 1/2 years and is now a sales executive at a tech company. In this conversation, Morgan shares about:
- Why she’s “happier than ever” working in sales;
- Being raised to think that her only three career options were doctor, lawyer, or engineer;
- Being pushed in the direction of becoming a lawyer because she had a strong personality and “liked to argue,”
- Hating law school, but thinking that was normal;
- Why worrying about looking like a quitter kept her in law school, even though she was unhappy;
- Disliking her first job after law school, but thinking at first that she just needed to find a different lawyer job;
- How she dealt with others not understanding why she wanted to leave;
- How generational differences regarding the perception of work complicate these conversations;
- The most important thing to remember when considering leaving the law;
- Dealing with the reality of having a large amount of student loan debt;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Get Sarah’s free guide, First Steps to Leaving the Law
- Connect with Morgan on LinkedIn or Instagram
- Buy the Former Lawyer Jump Start
In Episode 018 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Marissa Geannette. Marissa walked away from a successful biglaw career after nearly eight years, and now works as a freelance writer and blogs on her site, The Unbillable Life.
In this conversation, Marissa shares about:
- Why she started blogging after leaving biglaw, but kept the blog anonymous at first;
- Why she no longer blogs anonymously (you can read her blog post about it here);
- How she just sort of fell into her practice area;
- Why she started thinking about leaving the law after only one year of practice, but stayed for over 6 more years after that point;
- How preoccupied she was with what people would think if she left legal practice;
- Why she doesn’t think you need to know what you want to do next in order to leave the law;
- How she started getting freelance writing jobs;
- What led her to write a book for junior associates;
- Why she wishes she had been more open about how unhappy she was working in biglaw before she left;
- What held her back from leaving the law, and why she doesn’t want you to make the same mistake;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Get Sarah’s free guide, First Steps to Leaving the Law
- Connect with Marissa on her website or on Twitter
- Buy the Former Lawyer Jump Start
In Episode 017 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Nicole Abboud. Nicole first practiced family law, then fashion law, and along the way started the podcast The Gen Y Lawyer and founded Abboud Media, a modern strategy and consulting agency specializing in social media, podcast, and video marketing for lawyers and law firms. She recently pivoted and is focusing on blogging about sustainability, inclusion, style, courage, and self-expression.
In this conversation, Nicole shares about:
- Deciding she wanted to be a lawyer at a young age;
- Why she grew to hate practicing law;
- How she found herself feeling nervous and nauseous every workday;
- Why she opened her own fashion law practice even though she had started to suspect that she didn’t want to be a lawyer;
- How starting The Gen Y Lawyer Podcast ultimately gave her the courage and the direction to leave the law;
- How creating content for marketing her own practice created a business opportunity to start a company providing branding and marketing services for lawyers;
- Why the human desire for certainty can keep you stuck as a lawyer;
- The one thing she would have done differently when leaving the law;
- Why she’s pivoting again in her career, and how much easier it is this time around;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Get Sarah’s free guide, First Steps to Leaving the Law
- Connect with Nicole on her website, Instagram, Twitter, or by email
Listen to The Former Lawyer Podcast on your preferred platform!
In Episode 016 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Goli Kalkhoran, who quit law and started a portable photo booth company, Usie Booth. Goli also hosts the podcast Lessons from a Quitter, where she interviews inspiring people who have left traditional careers to start over and create a life they love.
In this conversation, Goli shares about:
- Deciding that she was going to become a lawyer when she was 10 years old;
- Heading off to law school convinced she would love the lawyer life;
- Why she wasn’t surprised she didn’t like working at a law firm, but didn’t think that meant she shouldn’t be a lawyer;
- How the culture of misery amongst lawyers is so common and so destructive;
- Why a move to a new state kept her from returning to her lawyer job as planned (and why she thinks without the move, she probably would have gone back even though she was miserable);
- Feeling sick as she looked for a new lawyer job after moving, and how it made her realize she should consider other options;
- Why she put off telling people she was leaving the law for almost 6 months after she made the decision to do it;
- The process that led to her making the decision to leave the law;
- Learning to question the stories that she believed about herself;
- Why you probably already know what you really want, and how to listen to yourself;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Get Sarah’s free guide, First Steps to Leaving the Law
- Connect with Goli on her website, Instagram, or Facebook
Listen to The Former Lawyer Podcast on your preferred platform!
In Episode 015 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Simi Botic, who worked as a corporate healthcare associate at a law firm for almost four years before leaving to run her own business. Simi is a certified holistic health coach, Intuitive Eating counselor, and the author of Letting Go Of Leo: How I Broke Up With Perfection, a memoir about overcoming her decades long struggle with feeling like she wasn't enough. Through her work, she helps women all over the world ditch perfection and heal their relationships with food and body image so they can begin to embrace their beautifully imperfect lives.
In this conversation, Simi shares about:
- Going to law school because she wasn’t sure what else to do with her sociology degree;
- Why her dad thought she should go to law school, and how him telling her that from a young age affected her thought process about law school;
- The role that her perfectionist personality played into getting her into law school and keeping her there;
- How graduating in 2011 affected her feelings about the job offer she received from a firm in her hometown of Columbus;
- Why her personality was such a bad fit for litigation, and how a move to a different practice area was her saving grace;
- How her side hustle helped her realize that the practice of law was not for her;
- How she built up her business on the side to the point that it could replace her income from her firm job before leaving the law;
- The value of playing the long game in leaving the law, and how to approach your legal job if your plan to leave is a long-term one;
- How to go about figuring out what you should do career-wise if you want to leave the law, but aren’t sure what’s next;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Get Sarah’s free guide, First Steps to Leaving the Law
- Connect with Simi on her website or on Instagram, and check out her book
Listen to The Former Lawyer Podcast on your preferred platform!
In Episode 014 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Jennifer Alvey. Jennifer left the law for a career in legal publishing, and now works as a career coach for lawyers and others looking to make a career change.
In this conversation, Jennifer shares about:
- Her progression from thinking she just didn’t like her particular legal job to realizing she didn’t want to be a lawyer at all;
- How she found her first job in legal publishing;
- Why writing for a legal publication was completely different from typical legal writing;
- How her blog, which started as a fun side project, turned into an actual business;
- Why career coaching can only take you so far;
- Why she felt shame about leaving her legal career, and how she dealt with it;
- Why you need to have non-lawyer friends;
- and much more!
Show Notes:
- Get Sarah’s free guide, First Steps to Leaving the Law
- Connect with Jennifer on her blog, Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter
Listen to The Former Lawyer Podcast on your preferred platform!
In Episode 013 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Tasha Cochran. Tasha graduated from Yale Law, and most recently was an attorney with the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau. She left the CFPB in August 2019 to work full-time on her online business, One Big Happy Life, which teaches people how to build wealth and live happy lives.
In this conversation, Tasha shares about:
- How she didn’t plan to practice law when she went to law school;
- Why being around people with big dreams in law school was so beneficial;
- How she managed a 3 hour round-trip commute to make it work while she was still practicing law;
- How making a single video for YouTube years ago started her down the path to online entrepreneurship;
- How her approach to debt, and the one she teaches through One Big Happy Life, is different from the other well-known financial movements out there;
- The things she misses from practicing as a lawyer;
- Why being a lawyer is easy compared to being an entrepreneur;
- How she grew her business, and where she wants it to go;
- Her advice for lawyers who are starting or growing a side hustle;
- How to stop looking at your life paycheck to paycheck;
- and much more!
One Big Happy Life YouTube videos mentioned in this episode:
- Tasha’s vlog of her last day as a lawyer
- Most recent net worth update
- Tasha breaking down OBHL’s yearly revenue growth
Connect with Tasha and One Big Happy Life:
- One Year Spending Plan Template: https://onebighappylife.com/budget
- Website: https://onebighappylife.com
- YouTube: https://youtube.com/c/onebighappy
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/onebighappylife/
- Email: tasha@onebighappylife
Take the guesswork out of your first steps to leaving the law by grabbing Sarah’s free guide at formerlawyer.com/guide!
Connect with Former Lawyer:
- Website: https://formerlawyer.com/
- Instagram: https://instagram.com/formerlawyer
- Facebook: https://facebook.com/formerlawyerpod
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/formerlawyerpod
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/former-lawyer
Listen to The Former Lawyer Podcast on your preferred platform!
In Episode 012 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Tiffany Duong. Tiffany practiced renewable energy project finance law for five years after law school, until she had an epiphany about her life on a dive boat in the Galapagos Islands. She now works as a climate and environmental advocate and conservation journalist and founded the media advocacy group Ocean Rebels.
In this conversation, Tiffany shares about:
- How she didn’t anticipate spending all her time working as a lawyer when she went to law school;
- Why law school was “a huge corporate cloud over her very naive green dreams;”
- How law school narrowed her view of what she could do with her law degree;
- Why she felt like she was having a midlife crisis in her late 20s;
- Why she ended up staying in big law firms for five years, even though she originally thought she wouldn’t stay more than a year;
- The trip she took to the Galapagos Islands where she realized that she needed to quit law;
- Why she still struggles with how to fit the lawyer piece within her identity;
- How she uses the skills she developed as a lawyer in her environmental advocacy work;
- Why reimagining her lawyer past has been so helpful;
- How she quit her law firm job and took a year off (and why that was hard);
- What a Google spreadsheet had to do with her decision about what to do next;
- Why being willing to start over again is so important to finding what you truly want to do with your life;
- How selling her house gave her so much freedom;
- Why she doesn’t regret her career change, even though she makes much less money than she did as a lawyer;
- Why managing your ego is one of the most important things you can do to find fulfilling work;
- How you truly can live your “irresponsible dream life”—responsibly;
- and much more!
Connect with Tiffany and Ocean Rebels:
- Websites: http://tiffanyduong.com/; https://oceanrebels.wixsite.com/oceanrebels
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lilicedt/; https://www.instagram.com/oceanrebels/
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tiffanyduong; https://www.facebook.com/oceanrebels/
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/lilicedt; https://twitter.com/ocean_rebels
- Email: tiffany@oceanrebels.org
Take the guesswork out of your first steps to leaving the law by grabbing Sarah’s free guide at formerlawyer.com/guide!
Connect with Former Lawyer:
- Website: https://formerlawyer.com/
- Instagram: https://instagram.com/formerlawyer
- Facebook: https://facebook.com/formerlawyerpod
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/formerlawyerpod
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/former-lawyer
Listen to The Former Lawyer Podcast on your preferred platform!
In Episode 011 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Shinah Chang. Shinah practiced corporate law for six years before leaving to start her own calligraphy business, Crooked Calligraphy.
In this conversation, Shinah shares about:
- How she spent her entire childhood working to get into Harvard, but felt lost when she arrived;
- Why she ended up going to law school after undergrad even though she thought being a lawyer would be boring;
- Why “you’re so good at arguing” is not a good reason to go to law school;
- Why the known path of law school seemed so much safer than taking an unknown path;
- How she clicked into “school mode” once in law school and just kept going;
- How she secretly envied a classmate who dropped out two months in to law school;
- Why leaving the practice of law was a slow and very fearful process for her;
- The plan she had in place to make her comfortable with quitting her law firm job;
- How to deal with others’ thoughts about you leaving the law;
- Why she recommends you work with a therapist or coach when you are planning to leave the law;
- How she tried all sorts of different things to find out what she should do next;
- How her training as a lawyer helped her while building her calligraphy business;
- Why the sunk costs fallacy is such a trap for unhappy lawyers and other people who are thinking about changing careers;
- Why her life now is so much better than she could have imagined;
- and much more!
Connect with Shinah:
- Website: http://www.crookedcalligraphy.com/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/crookedcalligraphy/
Take the guesswork out of your first steps to leaving the law by grabbing Sarah’s free guide at formerlawyer.com/guide!
Connect with Former Lawyer:
- Website: https://formerlawyer.com/
- Instagram: https://instagram.com/formerlawyer
- Facebook: https://facebook.com/formerlawyerpod
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/formerlawyerpod
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/former-lawyer
Listen to The Former Lawyer Podcast on your preferred platform!
In Episode 010 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Francesca Chang. While in law school, Francesca realized that she didn’t want to practice law, and instead travels and works as a freelance travel writer and marketing consultant.
In this conversation, Francesca shares about:
- How she chose to go to law school because she thought it would be a way to contribute to social change;
- How she realized in law school that the legal profession was not for her, but deciding to finish law school and take the bar anyway;
- The pushback she received from the law students and lawyers around her once she decided not to pursue a legal career, and her strategy for dealing with negative responses;
- Why student loan debt from law school didn’t hold her back from leaving the law behind;
- How she remarketed herself after law school to get a job doing digital marketing for lawyers and legal tech;
- How she relocated to Taiwan with her husband and landed jobs doing digital marketing for a tour company and travel writing for the Tourism Bureau of Taiwan;
- Her advice to people looking to make a career change into digital marketing;
- Why you need to be comfortable with the fact that leaving the law and finding what you want to do is a process;
- Why changing careers was worth the risk;
- and much more!
Connect with Francesca:
- Blog: https://attorneyonajourney.net
- Instagram: https://instagram.com/attorney_on_a_journey
Take the guesswork out of your first steps to leaving the law by grabbing Sarah’s free guide at formerlawyer.com/guide!
Connect with Former Lawyer:
- Website: https://formerlawyer.com/
- Instagram: https://instagram.com/formerlawyer
- Facebook: https://facebook.com/formerlawyerpod
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/formerlawyerpod
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/former-lawyer
Listen to The Former Lawyer Podcast on your preferred platform!
In Episode 009 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah talks with Jen Berson. Jen is a former lawyer who owns and run her own PR Agency, Jeneration PR, and teaches others how to start and grow their own successful agency.
In this conversation, Jen shares:
- How she originally got on the path to law school because she was looking for a reason to stay in the city where she went to college for the summer;
- Why observing women more senior to her in her law firm made her realize that working at a firm was not for her;
- What caused her realization that she could make her life happen for her instead of feeling like it was just happening to her;
- How she was advised by a female mentor to ignore mistreatment by a partner because it would be “career suicide”, but bravely spoke up anyway;
- How she started doing unpaid PR work on the side while working as a lawyer, before realizing it was something companies would pay for;
- How she dealt with her parents’ negative reactions to her decision to leave the law;
- How leaving the law ultimately inspired her husband to make his own career change;
- How she built a PR business from scratch, and the kind of work she’s doing now;
- Why she tripled her rates overnight, and landed her dream client the next day;
- Why your experience in law really can help you in so many other careers;
- and much more!
Check out Jeneration PR, and connect with Jen on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter!
Take the guesswork out of your first steps to leaving the law by grabbing Sarah’s free guide at formerlawyer.com/guide!
Pre-order the Jump Start mini-course at formerlawyer.com/jumpstart!
Connect with Former Lawyer on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter!
Listen to The Former Lawyer Podcast on your preferred platform!
In Episode 008 of The Former Lawyer Podcast, Sarah has a conversation with Alex Davis. Alex is a former lawyer who is now a writer, content expert, and consultant. Alex’s company, Davis Legal Media, helps attorneys and firms create content strategies to attract their ideal clients.
In this conversation, Alex shares:
- How she decided she was going to be a lawyer at a very young age;
- Why “you’re so good at arguing” is not a good reason to go to law school;
- Why she “hit the accelerator” towards a traditional legal career after starting law school without really considering whether that career would be a good fit;
- How the sunk costs fallacy holds law students and lawyers back;
- Why litigation was not a good fit for her personality type;
- Why she struggled with feeling like there was something wrong with her when she realized she didn’t like practicing law;
- Why she wishes The Former Lawyer Podcast was around when she felt stuck in her lawyer job (hey thanks! :) );
- The struggle with feeling directionless once she realized she didn’t want to work as a lawyer;
- How she got the idea for her next move from work she was doing for her own firm;
- The “plan” she had (air quotes her own!) for the company she founded after she left legal practice;
- What content marketing for lawyers is and how it differs from advertising;
- Why she thinks we need to flip the script about lawyers and anxiety;
- How personality typing systems like the Enneagram can help you understand yourself and what career might be the best fit for you;
- Why we need to challenge the false narrative that you have failed if you decide you don’t like working as a lawyer;
- and much more!
Interested in the Enneagram? Here are some resources to check out:
- https://assessment.yourenneagramcoach.com/ (free)
- https://www.truity.com/test/enneagram-personality-test (free)
- https://tests.enneagraminstitute.com/ ($12)
- https://www.instagram.com/enneagramandcoffee
Check out Davis Legal Media, and connect with Alex on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, or LinkedIn!
Take the guesswork out of your first steps to leaving the law by grabbing Sarah’s free guide at formerlawyer.com/guide!
Pre-order the Jump Start mini-course at formerlawyer.com/jumpstart!
Connect with Former Lawyer on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter!
Listen to The Former Lawyer Podcast on your preferred platform!
On today’s show, Sarah talks with Stacy Mikulik. Stacy is a former lawyer who is now a jewelry designer and the owner of grace + hudson jewelry.
In this conversation, Stacy shares:
- The danger of paying too much attention to what other people are saying about your career without listening to yourself as well;
- Why law school was a bad fit for her from the start;
- The confusion she felt about why anyone would want to be a biglaw associate;
- How inspiration from a shop she visited on vacation propelled her into the world of jewelry-making;
- The lessons she learned from opening her first jewelry store and why she’s thankful that she did it even though she ultimately closed it;
- What it was like to run a brick & mortar store while also working as a lawyer, and why she didn’t enjoy running a store;
- How that experience helped her appreciate certain aspects of working as a lawyer;
- Why she is a proponent of therapy for unhappy lawyers;
- How being thoughtful about what success truly means for you can help you clarify what you really want to do with your life;
- and much more!
Check out grace + hudson, and connect with Stacy on Instagram, Facebook, Pinterest, or by email!
Take the guesswork out of your first steps to leaving the law by grabbing Sarah’s free guide at formerlawyer.com/guide!
Learn more and pre-order the Jump Start mini-course at formerlawyer.com/jumpstart!
Connect with Former Lawyer on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter!
Listen to The Former Lawyer Podcast on your preferred platform!
On today’s show, Sarah talks with Matt Maxwell. Matt is a former lawyer who is now a Leadership Coach and Facilitator.
In this conversation, Sarah and Matt talk about:
- How he found himself asking during the first month of law school, “When did I actually choose to do this?”;
- How he raised the idea of leaving law school early on with his then-wife, but ultimately was held back by a sunk costs fallacy;
- Why taking the LSAT was his favorite part of his entire legal journey;
- The role his spiritual life played in deciding to leave the law;
- Why he left his in-house job with a great schedule to go back to biglaw AFTER he decided he wanted to leave the law;
- How he accelerated his exit strategy from the law;
- What made him decide to become a coach;
- The difference between professional coaching and advice giving, and the difference between coaching and therapy;
- The value of both coaching and therapy;
- The organization that Matt trained with, and why he recommends people check it out if interested in coaching;
- How our training as lawyers makes us uniquely susceptible to not making a career change;
- Why you should look for ways to enjoy your job while you’re still working as a lawyer;
- and much more!
Visit Matt’s website, listen to his podcast, and connect with Matt on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn!
Take the guesswork out of your first steps to leaving the law by grabbing Sarah’s free guide at formerlawyer.com/guide!
Learn more and pre-order the Jump Start mini-course at formerlawyer.com/jumpstart!
Connect with Former Lawyer on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter!
On today’s show, Sarah talks with Heidi Mueller. Heidi is a former lawyer who is now the Director of the Illinois Department of Juvenile Justice.
In this conversation, Heidi shares about:
- Why she had an inkling that she might want to leave law firm life even before she started;
- How she struggled with guilt over the fact that she didn’t like working as a big firm lawyer;
- The article she read that affirmed her decision to leave;
- Why she freaked out just as she was leaving her firm, even though she knew she wanted to leave;
- How she got hired for multiple jobs after leaving the law firm without ever again applying for a job;
- How a complete stranger was the person who seemed most disturbed by her choice to leave law practice;
- Why therapy can be so helpful when you are making a decision about leaving the law;
- How you can get more involved in juvenile justice work if you’re interested;
- and much more!
Take the guesswork out of your first steps to leaving the law by grabbing Sarah’s free guide at formerlawyer.com/guide!
Connect with Former Lawyer on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter!
On today’s show, Sarah talks with Nicolle Neulist, a former lawyer who went from lawyer, to information security consultant and analyst, to writing about horse-racing.
In this conversation, Nicolle shares about:
- Realizing during law school that law was not a good fit;
- Leaving the law after less than a year as a lawyer;
- Internally dancing a jig when being laid off during the 2009 contraction of the legal industry;
- Being willing to accept having law school debt forever in exchange for not hating your job;
- The mindset most lawyers have about how their career should go that holds them back from considering other options;
- Why you need to learn to listen to yourself when it comes to your job and career;
- and much more!
Take the guesswork out of your first steps to leaving the law by grabbing Sarah’s free guide at formerlawyer.com/guide!
Connect with Former Lawyer on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter!
On today’s show, Sarah interviews Alexis Michaud. In her former life, Alexis was Deputy General Counsel for a newly public technology company. In this interview, Alexis shares:
- Why she left the law after practicing for 18 years;
- How working with an Executive Coach was integral to determining her next move;
- Why someone who loves legal work can still want to make a change and leave the law;
- Why knowing your own work personality is essential when deciding whether to leave the law;
- The reason she didn’t have pictures of her kids in her office while she was a lawyer (it’s probably not what you think);
- The turning point that caused her to walk away from an extremely lucrative and interesting job (and why she had to resign multiple times!);
- and much more!
Connect with Alexis on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, or by email!
Go to https://formerlawyer.com/guide to get Sarah’s free guide, “First Steps to Leaving the Law,” today!
Connect with Former Lawyer on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter, and access completely free resources to help you leave the law here!
On today’s show, Sarah interviews Maria Phillis, former lawyer turned doctor (ob/gyn, to be specific).
In this interview, Maria shares:
- Why getting laid off during the big crash of '08/'09 wasn’t a terrible thing in retrospect;
- Why loving trial work wasn’t enough to keep her in the law;
- How she challenged herself to prove that she was truly interested in med school while still working as a lawyer;
- Why she doesn’t regret taking the path that she took (even though it meant even more student loans);
- Why she thinks it’s so hard for lawyers particularly to allow themselves to think about making a career change; and
- Why brutal honesty about what you actually want is essential if you’re thinking about leaving the law.
Connect with Maria:
- https://www.instagram.com/gabi37avsfan/
- https://www.twitter.com/mariaphillis
- maria.phillis@gmail.com
Get Sarah’s free guide, “First Steps to Leaving the Law,” today, at https://formerlawyer.com/guide!
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In this episode, Sarah Cottrell, the host of The Former Lawyer Podcast, shares about her experience working as a lawyer and why she decided to leave the law after practicing for 10 years. You'll hear about why she decided to go to law school (spoiler, she doesn't actually remember deciding to go), how she took a 6-figure pay cut (!) to leave biglaw after only three years, how she ended up in the best lawyer job of all time (in her opinion), why she ended up leaving the law anyway, and what inspired her to start Former Lawyer and this podcast. Want to join The Former Lawyer Community? Click here to sign up!
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In today's mini episode, Sarah introduces The Former Lawyer Podcast.
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Transcript of today's episode:
Sarah Cottrell: Hi, and welcome to The Former Lawyer Podcast! I'm Sarah Cottrell, the creator of Former Lawyer. On this podcast, I'll be interviewing all sorts of former lawyers who have left law to do something different with their careers and lives. I hope this podcast will provide you with inspiration, hope, and the knowledge that it's never too late to change direction in your legal career and in your life. Please visit formerlawyer.com to learn more about the mission of Former Lawyer and to subscribe to our email list. And find us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn. I look forward to connecting and I will be back soon with brand new episodes!