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In this episode, the founder and former Director of San Francisco State University Postbac Programs and Accepted consultant since 2015 explains why the fastest way to medical school is slowly and carefully, and explores the advantages and disadvantages of applying to med school from a postbac program. [SHOW SUMMARY]Are you in a postbac program or specialized masters program? Are you wondering what are the nuances of applying to medical school from a postbac program? You’re in luck, because that’s the topic of today’s episode – along with a healthy dose of excellent med school admissions advice for any med school applicant.

An interview with Dr. Barry S. Rothman, PhD, Emeritus Professor of Biology, founder of SFSU Postbac Programs, and Accepted consultant for 8 years. [Show Notes]Welcome to the 526th episode of Admission Straight Talk. Are you ready to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s med school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Complete the quiz and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus it’s all free.

Our guest today, Dr. Barry Rothman, is the former health professions advisor and director of San Francisco State University’s pre-health profession certificate program which serves pre-med, pre-dental, pre-nursing, and other pre-healthcare students who are preparing themselves to apply to graduate programs in healthcare. This episode focuses on medical school applications, but since 2015, Dr. Rothman has helped Accepted’s clients in all aspects of the application process to medical school and specifically those both applying to postbac programs and applying from postbac programs.

Dr. Rothman, welcome to Admission Straight Talk. [1:54]Great, Linda, good to be here and good to have been part of the Accepted family for now eight years.

Glad to have you as part of the Accepted family. How did you get involved in postbac programs and helping applicants from postbac programs apply successfully to medical school? [2:04]Wow, what a story. At San Francisco State, I’ve had three careers. Started out very research oriented, leading a postdoctoral fellowship at UC San Francisco, and then transitioning to SF State as a new faculty member and conducting lab research in a lab at SF State. Which I was quite successful at, but it didn’t really make me super happy, and I decided to stop doing research and start teaching. I had quite a lot of experience teaching already, and so that made me happier. And then around 20 years into my time at SF State, my dean approached me and said, “How’d you like to be the health professions advisor?” And I thought, sure, it’ll be an easy thing, no big deal.

And so I naively said yes, and it took over my life. I just loved doing it. I loved working with the students. I actually had been teaching a molecular medicine class, so I was interested in medicine anyhow, and I just took it from there. The students were wonderful to deal with. We created a program that required a lot of political maneuvering through the academic senate, and after a whole year of processing we had a postbac program, a newly formed from zero postbac program.

What are the different kinds of postbac programs, and whom are they for? [3:50]Sure. Well, actually there’s a bunch of different kinds. First of all, you can do a do-it-yourself postbac program, or you can enter a structured postbac program. So in do-it-yourself, you figure out the classes you take. You could take them at one or more universities as long as it’s a four-year university, and you need some kind of advising. And Accepted can provide that kind of advising for a do-it-yourself postbac program. As you might guess, a DIY postbac program is less expensive than a structured program. Structured programs as you might guess offer structure, and so there’s a bunch of people who are running the program, there’s faculty who participate in the program, and there’s usually fellow pre-meds. Those are mainly the population that are in these structured programs. So that’s one big division, do-it-yourself versus structured.

There’s other postbac programs that focus on disadvantaged students and/or minority students versus a broad population. So that’s another way of dividing postbac programs. Also, some postbac programs have linkage programs where you can immediately get into a medical school that has a linkage. You’re not guaranteed that, but it’s an advantage to have that. Some postbac programs don’t have linkage programs. Some postbac programs are at medical schools, some aren’t. Some are very expensive, some are less expensive. Some offer financial aid as an undergraduate. Some offer financial aid as a graduate student, and graduate financial aid is actually better. During undergraduate times you’re eating into the lifetime maximum that you’re allowed to have for federal loans. And so you may have used all that money up by the time you get to a postbac program.

So having undergrad financial aid is both less in terms of the absolute amount, and perhaps zero if you’ve used up your undergraduate financial aid allocation for federal money. Graduate financial aid is better, it’s a whole new pot of money. Of course, do-it-yourself postbac programs don’t have financial aid, but the total cost might be less anyhow because of the lower tuition. So there are many ways of dividing postbac programs. I think I’ve given you the main ones.

The two other divisions that I thought of would be postbac programs for academic enhancers and postbac programs for career changers. [6:31]Yes, that’s right. That’s right. Thank you for reminding me of that. So career changers are people who are starting out taking the academics for medical school. They haven’t had any. So they may have been an international relations major or journalism major, et cetera, et cetera, and they have decided after being an undergrad that, gee, I want to become a physician. Many career changers are children of physicians who want to prove that they are making their decision independently of their parents. And so they often go into areas very different from medicine and often do quite well, but then they decide, gee, being a physician maybe isn’t such a bad idea and maybe I’ve proven my independence. And so then they’ll go into a postbac program. So they’re called career changers and their curriculum is mostly prereqs for medical school, although they do need to take a few upper division electives as well.

Academic enhancers, and there’s vastly more academic enhancers than career changers. Academic enhancers, as you might guess from the name, need to improve their academic record. Many undergraduates start out having difficulty in their coursework and science majors and math majors in particular have difficulty early on. And so their academic records improve, but perhaps if not enough, if it’s still not strong enough by the time you graduate, then you might want to go into an academic enhancer postbac program. Also, academic enhancer programs are good for first time applicants and they can be particularly good for re-applicants as a way to show that you have made some serious steps in terms of improving your record.

What about specialized master’s programs? When you finish a postbac program, you don’t get an additional degree, you’ll get a transcript. [8:47]Well, some postbac programs actually could give you a master’s degree.

There’s a blur between special master’s and postbac, but the, I guess, super special master’s programs are created to help people get into medical school. That’s their job. And for some applicants, especially applicants who are not disadvantaged and haven’t had a lot of barriers, the medical school application process can be extremely competitive. And this might be their last way of showing themselves to be an unusual applicant or a better applicant. So special masters programs are quite pricey, often around $50,000 a year. So that’s a huge amount of debt in addition to medical school tuition.

And undergrad. [9:59]Oh yes. And then the undergrad tuition as well, yes.

And postbac programs that do not confer a master’s, what is the typical cost for them? And I’m not talking about the structured postbac programs. [10:05]Right. The one that I ran cost about $600 a unit, and so our students taking 12 units would pay $7,200, something like that in a semester. So maybe $14,000 a year or something like that. That’s a lot less than $50,000.

And many postbac programs have some kind of loans available. They rarely have scholarships, but they do have loans, federal loans available. And for some people who can’t qualify for federal loans, you can get a bank loan. And even though federal loans sound really wonderful, they have very high interest rates such as 7 or 8%.

Higher than banks, or the banks are more? [11:00]I think the banks might be a little bit more, but it’s not like the federal loans are a real bargain. They can be quite pricey in terms of interest.

And it does add up. [11:13]Yes, it does. And then there’s subsidized loans and unsubsidized loans. So a subsidized loan lets you defer the interest payments until you’re in a position to actually make some money. Whereas unsubsidized loans, you’re paying interest from the get-go.

That would really add up for sure. [11:33]Yes, yes.

Before we talk about the nuances of applying from postbac programs, what qualifications do all successful applicants to medical school need? [11:37]So first of all, you need strong academic preparation. You need to have a good academic record. And if it had some problems early on that’s fine, but you have to show that you’ve repaired it. And I think what most med schools want to see is at least two consecutive years of very high GPA in the sciences. You need strong MCAT scores. MCAT is a national exam, it compares everybody, so it’s one way that med schools can compare everybody that’s independent of grade point average. And third, you need considerable clinical and social justice experience. You need to know what you’re getting into and you need to show that you actually care about the health of our society. Medical schools are organs of social change, and they really put a lot of emphasis in choosing people who want to see changes occur, changes for the better. In terms of the application, the application needs to be consistent.

Your biographical information, even though it might seem trivial, you need to make sure that all the little pieces of it fit together. For example, if you say that your family had very little income and then you put that they paid for 100% of your tuition, it might sound a little strange. How could they do that if they were making $14,000 a year? So you want to make sure that the biographical part is well written and internally consistent. You need to have thoughtfully written experiences and a personal statement, and really well-written and covering areas that medical schools want to know about. You need to have supportive, well-chosen letters, and you need to choose appropriate schools given your statistics.

That’s a fantastic overview. What about research? [13:45]Research is good and some med schools are much more research oriented, but many aren’t. And I would say research is not absolutely required.

More of a nice to have? [14:02]It’s nice to have, but to do it just because you’re checking off a box would probably make you miserable doing it that way. I know I’ve done many, many years of research, it can be very tedious and so you really need to be interested in it to do it. So I would say do research if you’re interested in it. If you’re not and you’re just checking a box, maybe don’t do it.

That’s pretty clear. [14:30]So there’s two kinds of research and maybe one kind is more appealing than the other. Two broad areas, one is wet lab research where you actually do experiments with solutions in biological materials or chemical materials or perhaps physical materials. And the other is data-oriented research, where you crunch numbers and everything’s done on a computer. So they’re very different, and one kind appeals to some people and the other kind to other people.

What about clinical research? [15:01]Oh, yeah. Thank you. Clinical research of course would be great, and many students, especially postbacs can get jobs in medical schools or in universities where they’re helping to manage clinical trials. So here in San Francisco, we’re quite lucky that we have University of California San Francisco, we have Stanford nearby, and we have UC Berkeley nearby, not a med school, but the other two are med schools. And many undergraduates and postbacs can get jobs there. And for the med school, they’re a bargain because they can pay them modest amounts of money and they get highly skilled people who are running these clinical trials. So yes, thank you for reminding me. Clinical research is also another way to go.

What are the advantages of applying to medical school from a postbac program? [15:58]Well, I think most postbac programs have good reputations with the medical schools. And so in a way, if you get the postbac programs imprimatur, then the med schools think that, well, you’ve probably been carefully selected and chosen and maybe tuned up to be a better applicant. You’re in a program with other pre-meds, so the basis of comparison is a little different. They’re not comparing you to every undergraduate, they’re comparing you to a bunch of pre-meds.

Pre-med or to med students? [16:43]postbac programs.

Are postbac programs ever with first year med students? [16:48]Some are. So if you’re at a med school, obviously, in some postbac programs, you can take classes with med students. And then that’s a really good comparison because they’re actually comparing you to usually first year med students. So that’s a huge advantage.

What are the challenges of applying to medical school from postbac programs? What are the difficulties, disadvantages? [17:10]Well, some postbac programs can be rather competitive. When I designed my postbac program, since I was able to design it from zero, I wanted to emphasize cooperation, people getting along, and also having a broad population of students, both disadvantaged and highly resourced. So that was a real treat to do that, but some programs can be rather competitive and maybe not so good for you. As competitive as medical school is, at the end of the day medicine is a cooperative venture, and learning how to cooperate is a wonderful skill. And so I would put emphasis on that. And in fact, not only cooperate, but mutually support each other. I think that’s the way to go, and that’s the way I designed my program.

Would you say that having had that teamwork, exposure in a postbac program would definitely be an advantage both as a human being and as a medical school applicant? [18:11]Yes. And postbacs understand each other, understand the craziness of applying to medical school and can support each other when family members are wondering what happened to you? Why are you so crazy this year? And it can be very stressful, and it can leak out in unusual ways. Our postbac program actually went a long way to offer stress relief by having psychotherapists involved and also stress handling tools. And if your postbac program doesn’t offer that, it’s really a good time in your life to develop the ability to handle stress because you’re going to be entering a fairly stressful career.

Some postbac programs are two years, but aren’t most one year programs? Is that correct? [19:08]Yes. Yes. Career changers need two years. It’s crazy to do it in one year. I mean, it could be extremely stressful. I’ve seen some students do it though. They just dedicated themselves 110% to the whole academic endeavor.

I’ve quoted you often when you say the fastest way to medical school often is slowly. [19:32]Yes. Slowly and carefully. And I don’t say “often.”

Okay. Period. [19:41]Period.

All right, I’ll correct myself next time I quote you. [19:44]There’s no quick fix there. It’s such a labyrinthine process to get it right. You really need to think about it over a long period of time and also make sure it really fits who you are. Is this the career you want or is it just you want to be an overachiever and look cool? You want to make sure you’re actually choosing your career, any career, as long as it’s consistent with who you are as a person.

Should students count on, assuming they’re in a one-year postbac program (not the career changer programs), should they count on taking a gap year after their postbac program just because of the way the application cycle works? Academic enhancers, I assume would be probably critical. [20:14]Academic enhancers usually take a year.

But they need the grades from that year to apply so they almost have to count on a gap year, don’t they? [20:36]Right. It’s hard to avoid the gap year unless there’s a linkage program.

But some academic enhancers need more time. We had academic enhancers that took two years because their senior year academic record wasn’t so good. And again, med schools want to see a minimum of two years of strong GPA. And we even had a few people there for three years. It was fine.

That’s where they went part-time, wasn’t it? [21:09]Yes. Now, one thing I didn’t discuss was that some postbac programs allow you to be part-time and some absolutely insist you gotta be full-time, don’t get a job, you’re here full-time. In our program, we were flexible because we knew a lot of our students did not get adequate financial aid just through federal loans and so they had to work.

Makes sense. [21:31]And it was fine with us for them to be part-time. So they took longer.

So, yes, I’m a real proponent of gap years. It’s a wonderful time to further enhance your record, to get more clinical experience, to think about what you’re doing, develop your stress handling skills, and maybe even take some more coursework outside of the postbac program.

Or in a different topic that just interests you. [21:57]Yes. Another topic that I think is really important for pre-meds is public health, and med schools really like seeing people who, well, if they have an MPH, that’s wonderful, but have taken some public health coursework. So you understand the social dimension of healthcare, not just the molecular and cellular part of it.

How is the postbac GPA calculated in the overall undergraduate GPA? I know graduate GPAs are viewed differently, they’re a little bit off the grid, but how about the postbac program GPA in the application? [22:21]So the MD and DO applications have this matrix of GPA calculations. And so on the rows they have freshman year, sophomore year, junior year and senior year. So they can see trends through undergraduate. And then a completely separate row is postbac, and another separate row is graduate. So if you’re in a master’s program, it would go into graduate. If you’re in a non master’s it would go into postbac. But every course you take after you graduate, whether you’re in a do-it-yourself or structured program, goes into that postbac bin.

As long as it’s not towards a master’s? [23:19]Right. And that bin is divided into three or four different areas. For MD it’s BCPM, biology, chemistry, physics and math. The other bin is all other, and then the third bin is total. So that’s an advantage because med schools can see directly how much you’ve improved as a postbac, and they see how many units too. So if you have five units as a postbac, even if it’s a 4.0, it’s not very impressive. If you have 40 units, oh, that looks good. 40 units of 3.95 BCPM GPA looks good. You’ve definitely repaired your academic record. For osteopathic schools, they have an extra bin or a couple extra bins. They have BCP, biology, chemistry, physics, they have total science, they have non-science, and then they have total. But it’s the same basic idea.

Can a high postbac GPA make up for so-so or less than desirable MCAT or are they just showing different things? [24:26]No, no, no.

There are three gates to get into medical school and they’re independent of each other. So there’s a lot of I think very confused thinking about, well, if I just do great in the MCAT, my not so good GPA doesn’t matter, or vice versa. And you have to do well in all three gates; which are your academic record, your MCAT score, and your experiences; clinical and social justice. You really need to be superb in all three. So don’t naively think that one will make up for the other.

I sometimes say that the test shows you have the head for the subject matter and the GPA shows you have the ability for sitting and studying and consistent performance. [25:15]And then the clinical experience maybe shows some of your heart.

Heart and that you know what you’re getting into. [25:36]Yes. And especially the social justice experience, I think it’s very important to… Well, it’s not just show it, it’s hopefully you actually feel it and you really want to better our society.

Any last words of advice for applicants both to postbac programs specifically or to medical school from postbac programs, either way, going into the postbac program or coming out of the postbac program? [25:57]Well, I’m going to repeat what you said, and then I said, which is the fastest way to medical school is slowly and carefully. It’s a labyrinthine process. It’s really worth thinking about. There’s no quick fix. Take your time and really do it well. If you do it really well the first time, your chances of getting in will be as high as possible. If you’re a re-applicant, figure out what were the weak parts of your application. Get some help if you need help. And don’t just reflexively reapply the next year. By the time you didn’t get in, you have like three months or four months to get your next application together. And how much change can you be making during that time? Unless you were making the changes from the very beginning of the previous application cycle, you’re not going to have enough time. Med schools really appreciate people being thoughtful and taking time. So taking an extra year in between applications is very impressive and gives you more time to improve.

And makes you that much more improved because you took that time. What do you wish I would’ve asked you? [27:20]I wish you would’ve asked me more about disadvantaged and minority applicants.

Consider it asked. [27:33]Yes. So again, med schools are organs of social change and they’re in a very powerful position. If you think about it, if you become a medical doctor and you come from a disadvantaged background, your socioeconomic situation will likely improve tremendously. And not only will that improve, but most likely your progeny and your grand progeny will also improve that way. So it has a huge multiplicative effect. And so med schools really pay attention to this, but as a disadvantaged applicant, you wonder what’s going on here? Are these people patronizing me? I mean, why are they making such a big deal out of disadvantages? And so I think it’s important to realize that making a big deal out of disadvantages is well-meant and well thought about. Although at times the programs don’t handle it so well because they don’t understand what it’s like being disadvantaged and maybe coming from a minority background.

So it’s really good to be in a supportive environment in a postbac program that really is supportive of people who are from disadvantaged and/or minority backgrounds. And also when you go to med school, you better find some compadres who are like you and support you and make things make sense. Because if you’re a disadvantaged applicant and you wind up in let’s say a med school that has 80% participants who are pretty well off, you might feel rather marginalized. And so it’s really important to find people to bond with who will make you feel safe at your university. And that might be faculty and most likely fellow students as well.

Thank you very much Dr. Rothman. I really appreciate your insight and input. [29:52]Relevant Links:

• Med School Admissions Quiz
• Dr. Barry Rothman Bio and Contact Page
• How to Create Successful Secondary Applications, an on-demand webinar
• The A-Z of Applying to Postbac Programs
• Applying to Medical School with Low Stats: What You Need to Know

Related shows:

• Is a Postbac Program Right for You? – podcast episode 403
• Rejection and Reapplication: How to Respond – podcast episode 523
• Get Accepted to the Michigan State’s MD Program – podcast episode 522
• Casper, A Situational Judgment Test: All You Need to Know – podcast episode 513
• Get Accepted to the Medical College of Wisconsin – podcast episode 511

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The post How to Apply Successfully to Med School from Postbac Programs [Episode 526] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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In this episode, the Executive Director for MBA Admissions at NYU Stern explains Stern’s Change Studio and Frontier Labs, explores what it means to be a Sternie, and gives advice to reapplicants. [SHOW SUMMARY]Are you interested in an MBA that has the goal of preparing you to lead in an ever-changing world? Are you considering one- or two-year options? Does being in New York City with all that it offers, appeal to you? Then today’s episode is for you, the new Executive Director for MBA Admissions at NYU Stern is our guest.

An interview with Lindsay Loyd, the new Executive Director for MBA Admissions at NYU Stern. [Show Notes]Welcome to the 525th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Are you ready to apply to your dream MBA programs? Are you competitive at your target schools? Accepted’s MBA admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Complete the quiz and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to actually improve your profile and qualifications and it’s all free.

It gives me great pleasure to have for the first time on Admissions Straight Talk, Lindsey Lloyd, Executive Director for MBA Admissions at NYU Stern. Lindsey leads the recruiting and admissions efforts for Stern’s full-time MBA programs, including the two-year, full-time MBA, the focused one-year MBAs, which are the Andre KooTechnology and Entrepreneurship MBA and the Fashion and Luxury MBA. Lindsay has a BA in economics from Washington State University and an MBA from Chicago Booth. Before joining NYU Stern, she had a 13-year career at American Express, where she ultimately became the Vice President of Strategic Engagement Global Commercial Services. She joined NYU Stern in January, 2023.

Lindsey, congratulations on your new role and welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:05]Thanks, Linda. Great to be here.

Can you provide an overview of NYU Stern’s full-time, two-year MBA program? [2:17]So NYU’s two year program, full-time, it’s the classic program that you think of when you hear “MBA.” It is a graduate management education that delivers on both breadth and depth. Year one, you’re going to jump in with launch orientation and then focus on the core requirements, both the required and some picks from our menu. Then have a summer internship, followed by your second year, when you really jump into electives and your specializations.

There are three things that I’d highlight that make Stern special. Firstly being access, and really this is, we are located in the heart of New York City and we fully take advantage of that. We are so connected across businesses and industries, from FinTech to fashion, from media to marketing, you name it, we’ve got Stern alumni there and the beauty is, they’re just a subway right away. So we really are in the heart of the city and take advantage of it.

The next thing that I’d highlight is Stern’s Solutions. So this is our experiential learning opportunities for students, where they’re really jumping in and participating in live business challenges in the moment. This is something that Stern launched in the early two thousands, so this is two decades worth of experience and expansion and development. And lastly, I think Stern MBAs really have the opportunity to customize their experience. So I mentioned specializations earlier, you can pick three from over 20. There are more than 200 electives to choose from, and there are opportunities to study abroad, whether that’s for a semester or for one to two weeks, on a Doing Business In (DBI) international intensive.

The second year is entirely elective, isn’t it? [4:19]Yes, it is.

Since it’s their five year anniversary and there’s increasing interest in one-year MBA programs, can you also provide an overview of the two focused, one-year MBA programs: the Tech MBA and the Luxury and Fashion MBA programs? [4:25]Right. Quite a milestone for those programs.

They are fast, immersive, and indeed, very focused. They run May to May and it’s a lockstep, 52 credit curriculum. It includes a general business core, a specialized industry core, and then Stern Solutions, experiential learning projects that are really geared towards either tech or fashion and luxury. Starting with the tech program, which isSTEM designated, there’s a West Coast immersion experience and there’s a tech advisory board that connects students with prominent professionals and firms and industry. A couple of highlights here. So we’ve seen 120% growth in applications for the tech program since its inception. Another awesome stat is that, most cohorts in this program now, are at or near gender parity, and our 2022 class had 100% employment, three months post-graduation. So really awesome results happening in the tech program.

Similarly, the Fashion and Luxury Program also has an immersion experience. They go to Europe, and past trips have included stops at places like Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Prada. This program also has a council of industry leaders that connect students, because we know that mentorship and networking is really crucial, particularly in these industries. This program has a real small, deeply connected cohort. They all know, love each other, take care of each other,, and it’s a really special thing to see. Their employment rates have also been improving. And in 2022, that class hit 94% employment in three months, post-graduation. So, a high watermark there, as well.

What is the employment rate for the two year MBA? [6:26]98%.

That’s also a really impressive number. [6:39]Immediately versus three months, I’m not sure, but it’s very, very high.

The last entering class had the highest GMAT ever, and the last graduating class had the highest average total compensation ever. Correct? [6:51]That is correct.

What do you attribute that to? [7:00]So first, all credit goes to my predecessor in admissions, Lisa Rios, for recruiting a stellar class that is strong, not just on GMAT, but across all dimensions. As part of our holistic evaluation process, we’re test agnostic, so we accept the GMAT, GRE, EA, MCAT, LSAT, and we also offer a test waiver process. So I think a contributing factor to this high average GMAT is that candidates are figuring out which test works best for them and putting that best foot forward, which I think is a great strategy. We want candidates to submit their strongest application. On the graduate compensation front, I’ve got to tip my hat to my fellow Amex alum and the Head of Career Development at Stern, Brian Ruggiero, for just incredible placement outcomes, amidst the challenges of the pandemic.

As I’ve onboarded at Stern, it’s clear that that team on the employer relation front is incredibly strong, manages and builds great relationships there. And then on the career coaching front, they are incredible and do such a great job of preparing Sternies for all things recruiting. I’ve also been really impressed with the student-led industry groups and the Stern Pay it Forward ethos, part of that IQ+EQ vibe we’ve got going. The second years do so much to help the first years prepare for networking, case interviews, the whole thing, and it’s really incredible to see it in action.

Can you touch on Change Studio? What is it and how do students take advantage of it? [8:29]Yeah, change is really the one constant in life.

And as such, it’s Stern’s mission to prepare our students to embrace change, to dare it, dream it, drive it, as the tagline says. And this mission is really foundational. It’s built into all aspects of the Stern program, from launch, to core and on through to electives. Change Studio is really an umbrella concept that encapsulates the many different co-curricular opportunities that Sternies can take advantage of during their time here, whether that’s through Stern’s Solutions, opportunities through the Office of Diversity and Inclusion, you name it. And these things, in the spirit of change, are constantly evolving based on student demand and market interest.

Is it a class? Is it an ethos? Is it an opportunity? Is it experiential learning? [9:47]I would say, it’s not one particular course or one particular prescriptive set of courses, but it’s a buffet of opportunities that are available for Sternies to choose from.

Any examples you can give me? [10:08]So I would say, Launch would be one of those. I would say, the Consulting Labs. I would say-

Entrepreneurship? [10:17]Yes, Endless Frontier Labs and some of the entrepreneurship opportunities. I would say, Leadership Accelerator, there’s a whole host to choose from. And like I said, this is something, that new programs are evolving all the time.

Where are Stern MBAs finding jobs, in terms of geography and industry, function, all three? [10:33]All three. So I’ll take those from the top.

Geography, it should come as no surprise given our location, that we have very strong placement in New York City and the Northeast. We have candidates that are placed Coast to Coast in the US and also beyond the rest of the world, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. Industry-wise, it’s got about a third that go into consulting and a third that go into some kind of broader, diversified financial services, and then good chunks go into tech, healthcare, entertainment, sports and media, CPG and real estate. Functionally, we’ve kind of already accounted for that third, going into consulting, so same story there. A third going into finance functional roles and accounting type functional roles and then the rest, product management, marketing, general management, data analytics, operations. Really, if people are interested in the details, I strongly recommend you go to our website and the employment reports. We post them for both the full-time two year program and the two, one year focus programs.

What does Stern offer want-to-be entrepreneurs? I know you mentioned Frontier Labs. Can you go into that a little bit? [11:49]Stern is a great place for current entrepreneurs and flowering entrepreneurs. We’ve got some excellent elective coursework to choose from, applications and entrepreneurial finance, marketing for entrepreneurs, managing growing companies, and a host more. Endless Frontier Labs specifically, is NYU Stern’s hub for massively scalable tech and life science startups from around the world. These aren’t necessarily Stern startups, they don’t have to be associated with Stern. That program runs from October through May and Stern MBA students have the opportunity to get involved through a companion course that they take, then that allows them to work closely with the EFL founders on business development support. And some actually, have placed into full-time jobs in those companies, after graduation.

Other things that I’d highlight, the Berkeley Center offers startup advising to students and also runs the Annual Entrepreneur’s Challenge that has competitions for seed funding. We also have a program called Stern Works, it’s a fund that supports students who are seeking internships with startups and nonprofits. And then finally, I’ll highlight that we have student-led groups like the Entrepreneurship and Startup Association.

And New York City’s a great place to be an entrepreneur.

What don’t people know about NYU Stern that you would like them to know? What’s a common myth you’d like to bust or something that people just don’t know? [13:23]Yeah, and it came up recently at preview weekend for our next admitted class, but I think upon first glance, it’s really easy to write off IQ+EQ as a marketing phrase, but I’m telling you, it’s the real deal. While I’m new to Stern, I’m not new to working with Sternies. During my tenure at American Express, I worked with and for many, many Stern graduates, both Amex colleagues of mine and also with folks I was sitting across the table from, and Sternies that worked at partners of Amex’s, like Delta Airlines. All of the Sternies I worked with were incredibly smart, when it came to numbers and business strategy and also very people smart. They were generally very kind and humble leaders. They care deeply about leveling up everyone around them and very much, were strongly committed to doing the right thing by people, whether that was colleagues or customers. And that was one of the many reasons that I was really excited to come work at Stern.

Do you see any changes coming to NYU Stern’s application requirements in the upcoming cycle? Let’s break it down a little bit. You already mentioned that Stern will accept whatever test you feel best represents you, and you also offer waivers. Do you plan to change the test policy, allowing all, and what about waivers? [14:43]No change is being made on that front.

What about the waiver option? [15:03]Going to keep it.

What about changes to the essays? [15:08]We changed those not that long ago, and as I’ve onboarded and talked to the team and gotten familiar with the reading process and that kind of thing, we really like our questions. And the sense is, it really helps you understand and get to know an applicant and they lend themselves well to differentiating between an okay application, a good application, and a great application. So we really like our essay questions.

It’s nice when schools have some signature questions that also reflect the culture. [15:39]Exactly.

Do you see ChatGPT as a problem in the application process, specifically regarding the essays? Now I realize yours are a little different because you also have a visual component, at least to one, but how do you view that? [15:46]So ChatGPT is interesting. Amongst my fellow Stern grad program administrators, the Dean of Students who’s a Stern alum, Connor Grennan, has become kind of our Obi-Wan Kenobi of ChatGPT.

He’s a really fun follow on LinkedIn right now, I highly recommend it. He’s always sharing interesting use cases. This functionality is so new and it’s so rapidly changing every day. I will say, I plugged in our change essay prompt to ChatGPT to see what it produced. My conclusion is, I don’t think it’s a good strategy for an applicant looking to put their best forward, to outsource their application essays to ChatGPT. It can create a passable but very generic essay without much in the way of personality. And I think a winning essay is one that’s infused with personality and shows what you uniquely bring to the table.

The one sort of analogy that I’ve heard kicked around, is that ChatGPT is to writing what a calculator is to math and so I think in that vein. Maybe it’s a bit like, I would compare it to bouncing your essays off a friend or maybe an admissions consultant for feedback or using spell check or Grammarly to make sure that you’re not missing any errors. That’s all fine to use those tools, but you still got to do the heavy lifting at the end of the day.

You still have to think. [17:35]Do the self-reflection, do the research and do the thoughtful composition, if you want your essays to be yours.

I was kind of thinking about homemade, baked products, versus a store bought one. [17:44]Yeah. Right, it’s not going to taste the same.

But I have no interest in trying to detect who has used it or not. We’ll see. I mean, there’s also AI that is for image generation. So if someone creates something in Mid Journey and includes it in their pick six, that could be interesting.

I’d be curious to know what prompt to use?

Apparently, maybe ChatGPT has its own style and it’ll be in its own way, detectable, not necessarily by a machine, but by human beings. Conversely, what makes an applicant in an application come alive for you? [18:22]Yeah, I think an application really shines when every piece of it comes together to tell a cohesive narrative and it shows us three main things. Firstly, the applicant has done deep reflection on their values, on what they’re good at and what they maybe have room for improvement. Secondly, they’ve really researched their intended career path, and they can connect the dots from where they’ve been, to what they hope to experience at Stern and where they hope to be after Stern. And then lastly, shows us. How are you going to contribute and be a part of the Stern community, right? When we’re crafting this class, it’s a mosaic; we want to make sure that that Stern Pay it Forward ethos is really running throughout. So we’re curious as to what your contribution is going to be?

What stone are you going to be in that mosaic? [19:28]Exactly. Exactly.

What about the EQ endorsement? How is that different from a letter of recommendation? [19:49]Yeah, I mean, it’s similar, but I think it adds a layer, it adds another dimension. It’s not just the task that you’ve completed or the results that you’ve delivered at work, but this gets into how you did those things? Are you leading with empathy? Are you communicating thoughtfully? Interpersonal skills are just as important as intellectual skills. And we’re looking for exceptional individuals that are self-aware, that are naturally curious, and they’re always working to improve themselves. And I think the EQ endorsement gives us a window into that.

What can an interviewee to NYU Stern expect during the interview? [20:32]Yeah, I think one of the things the pandemic allowed us to do was innovate on how we interview. All of our interviews are 30 minutes in length, conducted via Zoom with members of the admission staff. So it’s not an alumni, not a current student, it’s a member of my staff. So we are delivering, and we like this because it delivers a consistent, equitable candidate experience. And on the flip side, we get consistent and equitable interview reports from it. In terms of expectations, the interview isn’t blind. The person who’s interviewing you is a staff member who will have reviewed your application and your resume. So it’s really going to be a 30-minute conversation to get to know you better, get a sense of your communication style, and understand how a Stern MBA fits into your career journey at this time. And likewise, it’s an opportunity for you to get to know Stern better, that you should take advantage of and ask questions and help us give you more insight into Stern, as a possible avenue for you.

So you would definitely recommend that an applicant invited to interview prepare some questions. [21:41]Absolutely.

And I assume that those questions should not be answered on the second page of the website? [21:46]Ideally. They peel back the onion a bit further than that, yes.

What suggestions would you have for re-applicants to Stern? [21:58]So when I’m thinking about someone who’s reapplying to Stern, and I’m thinking even if I was in their shoes, I’d be most curious to know, what did they learn about themselves through that application process that didn’t result in what they were hoping for? I think it’s also beneficial to take a real critical look at your last application. Where are the areas that you felt were not as strong as they could have been? How can you tell a stronger story this time around? What’s changed since you last applied?

Those are the questions that I would be asking.

And how did you address those weaknesses? [22:53]Exactly.

Every so often we are asked, “I know it was my test score, or I know I didn’t have enough experience, but my essays are really good. Can I just resubmit the same essays?” How would you respond to that? [22:57]I mean, you can.

I don’t know if that’s the best course of action. I think you’d probably have something different to say with another year’s worth of experience. So you would be doing yourself a disservice by just submitting the same application essays. I would really think about what has changed and how could you reflect that?

I was just having this discussion with somebody and he says, “Well, I took some classes, I got some A’s, that’s really what’s changed, and my essays were really, really good.” And I said, “There are very few people who can’t improve their writing a year later when they look back at it, number one. Number two, if you want to telegraph that the only thing you’ve done in the last year is take a few classes and earned A’s in them, then go ahead. But maybe you want to show that you’ve done other things too, or grown in other ways.” [23:38]Right.

I don’t think part of what a re-applicant should do is, okay, so they analyzed the weakness, they saw that it was grades or test score or whatever the weakness was, and they addressed it, but they don’t want to be otherwise stagnant. They don’t want to come across as stagnant. [24:09]You want to come to a place where we’re all about change. Right? What have you learned?

What about first time applicants? They haven’t been rejected previously, they haven’t applied previously. How can applicants prepare to apply successfully to NYU Stern? [24:43]I’m sure at that moment, and I’ve been there myself many moons ago, but it can be very overwhelming. Firstly, I’d say, don’t fuss too much about meeting any one particular deadline versus another. We don’t want you to rush an application. We want to see your application, when you’re ready to submit the best application you can submit. We were talking about test options earlier, do some research, give it some prep, and give it a go as soon as you can. I think you’d want to allow yourself time to see how that score came back, retest or try another test, if you feel like it wasn’t reflective of your capabilities. And then I will also say, please don’t be put off by the high average scores. Keep in mind that averages are not minimums. Take a look at our class profile, we publish our 80% and 100% ranges, and just remember that, we evaluate applications holistically. The test score is only one data point amongst the bigger picture of you, that is the application.

And when we’re talking about tips and the tests, who should apply for a waiver? [25:58]I’d say, if you feel that the test really isn’t reflective or you’re not in a space where you can take a certain test, we’re looking for folks who have past experience in quantitative courses. Right? You’ve got transcripts supporting that you know will be able to come in and hit the ground running and do well in statistics and financial accounting in that first semester at school. So looking for either transcript evidence or folks who have had significant work experience that’s quantitatively supported. Maybe you have your CPA or your CFA, these are all other proof points that you’re going to do well. But I strongly encourage you to take a test and submit a score because it is a helpful data point. But those are the type of things that we’d be evaluating when assessing for granting a waiver.

What question would you have liked to answer that I didn’t ask? [26:59]So the one cool thing, and I think I mentioned it earlier as part of the Change Studio, but I really want to highlight it, is Leadership Accelerator, because it is the coolest thing that I’ve learned about at Stern.

What’s the coolest thing I didn’t ask about? [27:18]Yeah. So this is taking case method learning to a whole other level. They have taken it off the paper and Leadership Accelerator is an opportunity for students to spend a full day living in a case. We bring in professional actors that play business roles, that are live in real-time, throwing twists and turns at the students that they’re responding to in real-time. And it’s an amazing opportunity for practical application of theory and gives them an opportunity to learn leadership agility and reacting to these things in real-time.

What’s the title? [28:05]Leadership Accelerator.

Professor Nate Petit is the Director of the Leadership Accelerator. He developed this live case method along with Stern colleague Hannah Levinson. So it’s super cool. And one sort of tangential plug for Nate Petit, this is a podcast, so I assume that people listening, like podcasts as a format for consuming content. Nate is also the Faculty Advisor for Stern Chats. And Stern Chats is a podcast that is entirely MBA student run, and it’s a great opportunity to hear about Stern from Sternies.

Thank you for that plug and thank you for explaining it. It sounds really cool. [28:47]It’s really cool.

So basically, they show up and they’re given a situation and actors act parts and they kind of – [28:52]Yeah. The students are in roles, you’re in a boardroom and you’re debating a strategy and then a crisis comes in and how do you respond to these things?

So picture reading an HBS case, but then living it in real-time. Right?

That does sound really cool. [29:15]How people always lay out the scenario.

I want to thank you so much for joining me today. I’ve enjoyed chatting with you about NYU Stern’s three full-time MBA programs. Can you provide a URL for our listeners? [29:22]Yeah, everything you can find is at https://www.stern.nyu.edu/ and there’s pages for the full-time two year program that we talked about and for the one year focus programs.

Relevant Links:

• NYU Stern MBA Admissions
• MBA Admissions Quiz
• NYU Stern MBA Essay Tips
• NYU Stern Executive MBA Essay Tips and Deadlines
• NYU Part-Time MBA Essay Tips & Deadlines

Related shows:

• What’s New at NYU Stern’s Online Masters of Science in Quantitative Management [Episode 447]
• How to Get into Dartmouth Tuck [Episode 514]
• How to Get Into Georgetown McDonough’s MBA Program [Episode 512]
• The Questions You SHOULD Be Asking – ANSWERED! [Episode 500]
• How to Get Accepted to MIT Sloan MBA [Episode 498]
• How to Get Accepted to Cornell Johnson MBA [Episode 488]

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In this episode, the CEO of Service to School and the Chief Programs Officer at Service to School explore the resources available to active duty service members and veterans through the nonprofit and give practical examples of translating military experience into public sector terms. [SHOW SUMMARY]Are you a veteran considering grad school? Are you thinking about entering the military and wondering what you should do after it? Would you just like to hear some great advice about applying to grad school, even if you’re not in the military? Please join me for this informative interview with the CEO and the Chief Programs Officer of Service to School, a nonprofit that provides free college and grad school application counseling to military veterans and service members.

An interview with Alec Emmert, CEO of Service to School and Sydney Matthes, Chief Programs Officer. [Show Notes]Welcome to the 524th episode of Admission Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Are you ready to apply to your dream MBA programs? Are you competitive at your target schools? Accepted’s MBA Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/mba-quiz, complete the quiz, and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your qualifications, plus it’s all free.

In honor of Memorial Day, which the United States will observe this Monday, May 29th, I decided to invite two guests from Service to School, an organization that helps US military veterans gain acceptance to college and graduate programs. It gives me great pleasure to have for the first time on Admissions Straight Talk, Alec Emmert, CEO of Service to School, and Sydney Matthes, Chief Program Officer at, again, Service to School.

A little background about our guests. You could say that Alec really likes school. He holds a BS from the US Naval Academy, an MA in International Relations and Middle Eastern studies from the American Military University, an MS in finance from Georgetown University, and an MBA from Wharton. After serving in the military for almost eight years, Alec joined Booz Allen Hamilton, earned his MBA at Wharton, and then joined McKinsey as a consultant. He became the full-time CEO of Service to School in March of this year. Congratulations on your new position.

Sydney also likes education. She has worked in higher ed since 2011 on different college campuses, and is an independent admissions consultant. She earned her bachelor’s at West Virginia University and her master’s in Higher Education and in Education Administration from George Washington University. Her master’s focused on veteran support programs and campus resources.

Alec and Sydney, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:40]Sydney Matthes:

Thanks. Excited to be here.

Glad to have you both. Okay, the first question is a basic one, and let’s start with Alec for this one. What is Service to School? [2:45]Alec Emmert:

In a nutshell, Service to School is an organization that provides free college application and admissions support to any veteran who wants it. We’re talking about everything from community college to PhD programs. So if you are a veteran and you want any form of higher education, you can reach out to Service to School, and we’ve got a group of about 500 plus volunteer ambassadors who’ll be willing to help you out and get you into the program you’d like to go to. We also offer a number of weekly programs, a newsletter, things like that, that veterans can use, to better inform their college decision.

I’d like each of you also to give us a little background on your personal journeys to involvement with Service to School. And Sydney, why don’t you start with that one? [3:33]Sydney Matthes:

Yeah, absolutely. I actually started as an ambassador. So during my time as an independent admissions consultant, I was consistently approached by soldiers. My husband is active duty army, so he would send me soldiers that had questions about going back to school, and that was my full-time job. I would help them through the process and I was like, “Why isn’t there an organization that does this?”

So after a Google search, I found Service to School and I signed up to be an ambassador, supporting students on our undergraduate team. And then eventually as a volunteer role, I was the co-director of our other grad program that supports veterans that are applying to those one-off programs, like a master’s in higher ed. We have a lot of graduate degrees in computer science that fall in that space. So I led that team, and then eventually they asked me to come on full-time here at Service to School to help support the resources and the content that we provide across all of our different teams. So I started as a volunteer.

Alec Emmert:

I also started as a volunteer ambassador. When I was at Georgetown pursuing my master’s in finance, I was part of their veterans club, and I was looking for a way to give back to the veteran community, and I just started asking around. One of my colleagues there in the veterans club told me about Service to School. I reached out to the organization, signed up to be an undergraduate ambassador, did that for several years. When I decided to apply to business school, I actually became an applicant and got an MBA Admissions ambassador, and he was tremendously helpful in my success. Following my admission to business school, I paid it forward and became an MBA ambassador myself. And then only recently was I asked to take on the role of CEO, and so I moved from Ambassador to CEO. So all in all, I’ve been with the organization for about eight years in some capacity.

In 2015, I interviewed Gus Giacoman, who was one of the co-founders of Service to School, for Admissions Straight Talk. If you’re interested in that, we’re going to link to the episode. Now, Alec, when you applied to Wharton, you already were a graduate of the Naval Academy, and you had two masters degrees. As I said, you clearly liked school. Why did you want an MBA, and are you glad you got it? [5:35]Alec Emmert:

The short answer is, I’m very glad I got it. My experience at Wharton was very positive, and really what differentiated my MBA experience from the other two masters I had gotten was the ability to take two years off to really focus on myself, my future, my career, and learn from a variety of different people around me at the Wharton School. The previous two master’s degrees I got were part-time programs. They’re both very, very useful for me professionally. In my case, in my time in the military, I spent a lot of time in the Middle East, so I wanted to learn about the root cause of a lot of the challenges that were going on in the region, so I pursued that degree.

And then I used my GI bill benefits while I was working for Booz Allen Hamilton to get the Masters in Finance from Georgetown. It was an excellent program. It still is an excellent program, but it’s part-time, so I wasn’t fully immersed in an academic environment, where going full-time to Wharton enabled me to spend time talking to teachers, really digging deeper into what the future of the business landscape is going to look like. My major is in business analytics, so I got pretty deep in things like machine learning, and really was able to use that time to hit the reset button, figure out what I wanted to do with the rest of my life and expand my professional network.

I think recent surveys said that there’s growing interest in one-year and online programs, but you really felt that the two-year, full-time program was very beneficial. [7:33]Alec Emmert:

I did, because you get an internship, and the good thing about that is really your first year, all everybody ever talks about is where do you want to intern? And you don’t really have a full picture of what that internship’s going to look like, whether or not you’re going to like the industry once you get there. So it really gives you a chance to try out your first hypothesis, and if you don’t like it, if you go to your internship, you’re not really crazy about it, you want to try something else, you have the opportunity in your second year to re-recruit, try something else and meet with people from different industries, see what else is going on. Even take the time to start a company yourself, things like that.

The bottom line is that I think that the one-year programs are very compressed. They’re good at getting you the education in a shorter period of time, but I do think that the two-year programs are very, very beneficial if you’re looking to really try a bunch of different things out and focus on your own personal development for a little bit longer period of time.

And you’re not doing the juggling that you’d be doing with a part-time program. [8:46]Alec Emmert:

Oh, yeah.

That must be hard, working full-time. [8:51]Alec Emmert:

It was. The MSF program at Georgetown is fantastic, and I learned so much in it. It was definitely a very rigorous program, and working full-time as a consultant while doing that, there were many late nights. I felt like I was always burning the candle at both ends with that one, in the sense, getting a full-time MBA removes the variable of having a full-time job. So your first responsibility when you’re at business school is doing well in the classroom, whereas your first responsibility when you’re getting a part-time degree is your day job.

Sydney, why did you go for your Master’s, and are you glad you got it? [9:33]Sydney Matthes:

Yeah, absolutely. I think the reason I went for my master’s is a lot of what Alec echoed in his experience in his MBA program. My undergraduate experience was truly transformative for me, just as a person. And I loved my time on campus, which led me to say, “Wow, I didn’t realize that working in higher education on a college campus can be someone’s full-time job.” So when I thought about going back to school, how can I do that full-time on a college campus, but also to be able to learn the intricacies of the US higher education system. So while doing my master’s program at GW, I had the opportunity to work in the law school admissions office. I worked in the undergraduate admissions office while also being a graduate student. So I had a full view of how a higher education and research institution can work.

I stumbled into the space of veteran support. Like I mentioned, my spouse is an active duty service member, and we were looking at student development theories. There wasn’t a lot of research around student veterans and how they integrate onto college campuses, be it at the undergraduate or graduate level. So I had the opportunity to create new knowledge. There’s so many incredible opportunities on college campuses across the different programs that students can enroll in, and that was just really exciting for me.

So to be able to go back for a graduate program, focused on a student population I was incredibly passionate, interested in learning more about, while also supporting my interest in learning higher education, 100% it’s led me truly to my position here now at Service to School, when I look back at 2015 and the research projects that I had. So 100% absolutely it was worth it. Just being around people that are excited to learn – you get that on a campus. And to Alec’s point, the networking, those hands-on experiences that you get from being fully immersed in a college campus, I’m just incredibly passionate about sharing that opportunity for service members, but also for anyone who’s interested in higher ed.

And your program was also a full-time program, was it? [11:40]I worked full-time, went part-time.

But you were working on campus, so in that sense you were immersed. Got it. [11:47]It felt full-time, because I would go straight from work to class in the evenings, when I would travel for work, working in admissions, talking to prospective students, was able to apply what I was learning in the classroom to my job. So it felt like I was doing both full-time, but wouldn’t change it, definitely to be able to see that practice and the application to what you’re learning in the classroom, play out in the workplace. I mean, to be able to marry those things was truly a dream come true.

So that’s the flip side of the part-time program, especially when you’re working in a related field. So there are advantages to being a vet, applying to school, and there are disadvantages to being a vet, applying to school. Why don’t we have each of you start with one of them, and you can obviously add if you have something to add. Alec, since you’re such an expert at applications, why don’t you address the disadvantages of applying or the challenges of applying as a vet to, in your case, graduate school? [12:14]Alec Emmert:

Sure. And so, I’d say that the disadvantage is really why Service to School is here. So the disadvantage is, when you’re in the military, it’s a fairly small percentage of your coworkers and your peers are going to be looking to go to graduate school to leave, and then go on to say business school, law school. Whereas when you think about it, a lot more people in the private sector, say hypothetically you’re working for an investment banker or consulting firm, I wouldn’t say the majority, but a large number of your peers are looking to those types of programs, looking to business school, potentially law school. And so, within your network there’s a lot more, I’d say peer and near peer mentorship.

You can talk about different programs, you can weigh the pros and cons of each, things like that. You can talk about good GMAT and LSAT prep programs. Whereas, when you’re a veteran, there’s a lot less information, or I’d say good information going around. Now, what Service to School is, it’s a network of mentors. So if you’re looking to get that good information, that mentorship, that near peer mentorship with your applications, that’s what we’re here for. So we’re here to essentially correct that disadvantage that many veterans experience.

Sydney, what will you say would be some of the advantages that vets have coming from the military and applying to grad school? And do you have anything to add to Alec’s comment? [14:06]Sydney Matthes:

Yeah, I mean, hitting home his point of the good information shared, that’s what we definitely try and do here at Service to School, is make sure that our applicants are well-informed about the admissions process, and where they could be a good fit at some of the nation’s strongest institutions. That’s one of the advantages, I think, of being a veteran applying to college right now, there’s so much unknown about our veterans. From my time reading admissions files, I have no idea what someone’s job in the Navy entails, or someone’s job in the Army entails. And to bring those real life experiences to a college campus, to a graduate program classroom, it adds to the depth of the conversations that are able to happen inside the classrooms.

And I think we see that through the program. The students that are going to some of our top business schools, Wharton, Harvard, they are actively seeking and enrolling veterans in those classrooms, because they see that their experiences, their lived experiences are very different from the rest of the students that are enrolling in those programs.

And we have those conversations with our student applicants regularly that you have very different experiences from what a traditional application’s essay is going to sound like, or what their resume is going to look like, and how can we best tell that story and help you translate those military experiences into civilian equivalencies or a language that a civilian’s going to understand. And that just sets their application already apart, because reading files, you’re used to reading the same undergraduate experience, there’s undergraduate clubs, but when you get a veteran’s application across your desk, it’s a whole new lens, which is really exciting from an admissions reader standpoint.

It seems to me like it’s almost a double-edged sword. You have this distinctive experience which will add to the classroom in ways that graduate admissions offices and employers will value, but you have to translate the distinctive experience into language that civilians will understand. Am I correct? [16:03]Sydney Matthes:

Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s a lot of what we spend our time doing, is helping them find those equivalencies. I tell our applicants, if I don’t understand what you’re talking about in your personal statement or your statement of purpose, an admissions officer probably isn’t going to be either, so let’s make sure we run that by your ambassador or Service to School team member, to make sure that you are translating that in the best way that we can. So then employers or an admissions office would understand some of the very specific military schooling that our applicants are coming to us with.

Alec, do you have any feedback from there, especially your time as an ambassador too?

Alec Emmert:

Yeah. The big thing is, veterans don’t write resumes. Most veterans will join the military and never have to write a resume until they leave. And so, understanding really what to put in a resume, how to convey the impact that you’ve made with your unit, is something veterans I think often struggle with. We’re always taught to be somewhat humble, by and large give the credit to the group. Whereas when that comes to writing a resume, that doesn’t always put your best foot forward.

So the key, I think, is a lot of veterans struggle with, we already discussed the acronyms and things like that, things of that in the military are pretty well known, but not well known outside and certainly not very well understood by a college admissions officer. So having that type of information in there that is not well explained, and then also being able to convey the impact they made with their unit and the situation, task, action, result, type, resume, bullet, and that’s, again, what Service to School is here to help them do.

Let’s dive into some of the different forms of assistance that Service to School provides to different types of applicants. Again, we’re going to keep the focus on the graduate programs, because that’s Admissions Straight Talk’s focus, but obviously an understanding is that you also provide to high school grads applying to college and community colleges also. So let’s start, Alec, with MBA applicants. What kind of assistance does Service to School provide to MBA applicants? [18:07]Alec Emmert:

Sure. So the big thing, we have our MBA ambassadors that provide one-on-one mentorship to potential MBA applicants. So a potential MBA applicant will fill in an intake form to Service to School. They’ll have an onboarding call, and then they will likely be paired with an ambassador with a similar background who went to a school that they are interested in attending, usually. So in my case, Wharton was my top choice, but Service to School paired me with an ambassador who was at HBS.

So they might not give you the exact school you want to go to, but a peer school. That ambassador will typically help with application preparation, resume review, essays, interview coaching, things like that. Additionally, we’ve got an MBA guidebook that’s available on our website that provides, independent of the ambassador, an applicant can go there. There are examples of good essays, good resumes, things like that. So there’s those free web resources that are available on our website at any time an applicant wants them. And additionally, we have some MBA programs where members of different veterans clubs at schools will talk to our applicants and answer questions as well.

Sydney Matthes:

Can I just piggyback in there as well?

Alec, being humble, he also just wrote and authored his own MBA Guidebook for Veterans. It’s available on Amazon.

But also, we do host an annual MBA and law school admissions fair, so we bring in schools. This year we had over 30 admissions offices represented, so veterans are able to speak directly with admissions offices for JD and MBA admissions.

Is it online or in person? [20:28]Sydney Matthes:

It’s all virtual.

And then for our healthcare professionals team, we have information sessions. This last year we did one with Mount Sinai. So a lot of virtual events for our applicants as well, and it’s all free to the applicant.

And you’re anticipating my next questions, which would be about JD applicants, applicants to graduate programs and healthcare, and applicants to other graduate programs, whether it be the masters in finance that Alec attended, maybe he can touch on that again, or research oriented PhD programs or engineering or public policy. So Sydney, you want to take that, several sub questions, if you will? [20:45]Sydney Matthes:

Sure, sure. So in addition to the events, I mean, I think the near peer piece is huge. Speaking specifically to our other grad team, that’s where a lot of our PhD applicants will fall. And when applying to PhD programs, typically they’re asking for a statement of purpose, an idea of a dissertation topic. So our PhD ambassadors are typically going through with applicants thinking, okay, well what kind of research might you want to do? Or what’s a topic for your dissertation? Have you thought through what that would look like in terms of a timeline?

Same conversations when we’re talking with applicants through their medical school applications. Okay, well, let’s think timeline. If they’re using their GI bill, how is that going to play into financing, the entirety of their time in a medical program? So the near peer piece, I think, is very key for our graduate programs, in addition to just the events and the resources that we’re able to provide with some of the partnerships that we have with graduate programs across the country.

Now, you mentioned PhDs, most PhD programs are by their very nature research-oriented and want to see previous research. Does the military provide opportunities for service members to do research? And if not, how do applicants handle that? [22:09]Alec Emmert:

That’s a good question. Sydney, feel free to jump in if my answer is lacking in any way. The short answer is yes, the military does provide opportunities for members to do research specifically. So the military is increasingly growing, more technologically advanced. And the military really actually has always been on the cutting edge of technology. And so, when you think about up and coming fields like AI, autonomy, like autonomous vehicles, things like that, members of the military are often at commands where this type of work is things that they do on a daily basis. And they might not specifically be in an R&D capacity, but they’ll publish articles in military journals and things like that. So there is the opportunity to do research while you’re in the military. I would say it’s not perhaps as easy as if you’re in a purely academic pursuit, but it’s there.

Sydney Matthes:

Agreed. Seeking out those opportunities too, there’s a lot of employers, organizations that have opportunities for research specifically for either student veterans or active duty. I know my spouse specifically, he’s getting an article published, and he’s a lawyer, and that’s all through the Army, so there are opportunities out there. That’s another thing I think Service to School does is, we try and share those opportunities with our applicants. All of our teams, graduate teams, our MBA team is run by one of our best ambassadors, and he’s regularly sending out opportunities for applicants within the MBA program for internships, research, scholarships, whatever those fields are in terms of the program that they’re applying to. Whenever we get resources like that, we try to share them with our applicants. So they’re definitely out there.

What suggestions do you have for vets applying to the different programs? Do you recommend, let’s say that MBA applicants get experience in the business world after separating from the military and before applying? Or do you think that perhaps the logistics experience they may have gotten in the military is usually enough for business school, and ultimately employers? Alec, again, do you want to take that one since it’s about MBAs? And we’ll go through the other categories also quickly. [24:18]Alec Emmert:

Yeah, sure. The short answer is, you can. I actually have known veterans who have left the military on say a Friday and started their MBA on a Monday, and they have been very successful. So it can be done. I mean, I do think the reality is, the more experience you can have working in the private sector between the military and the start of business school, the better. In my case, I spent about five years working for Booz Allen Hamilton before I started my MBA, and I think that, that gave me a little bit of a leg up over some of my other veterans at business school in terms of just really understanding really how corporate America works, because it’s fundamentally different than the military. But with that said, I think that five years might have been on the extreme side. I’d say that a good thing that a lot of veterans can take advantage of, is the DOD SkillBridge program, which I believe it’s six months before they leave the military, they can get an internship for a company in the private sector.

And so, they still get their military pay. They’re still technically on active duty, but they are working for this company. So if you can get a little bit of experience like that before you start business school, that’s very helpful. There’s also opportunities out there for pre MBA programs for veterans, that I knew some of my peers at Wharton also took advantage of. There’s some, I believe BlackRock has one, so those are also good things to look into. And the best way to handle it is, if you’re a veteran, you get into business school, reach out to the veterans club at the university, and they’re often, they’ve got a good handle on the different internship opportunities available. And then also, the Service to School MBA team can be helpful as well in that regard.

And since your husband’s an attorney in the military, what would you recommend for service members who are thinking of going for a JD? [26:41]Sydney Matthes:

Yeah. I think there’s, again, comes back to the good information. There’s a lot of bridge programs even from the military where they will go back and pay for you to go to law school, and then you come back as an active duty JAG. There’s so many opportunities that I think unfortunately a lot of people just don’t know about. So as much experience as you can get, as much as you can network and connect with people, like Alec said, reaching out to vets clubs where and when you can, and connecting with ambassadors from Service to School.

I hate to keep plugging that, but they’ve made that transition, they’ve made that leap that a lot of service members are looking for. But to talk to someone that has done that and charted those waters, is the best way to figure out what that could look like for you. But yeah, absolutely, I think as much hands-on experience as you can get, knowledge about the field and what it looks like and what that process entails, it’s just going to set you up to be the most successful, but also to make the best decision for yourself if that’s the journey that you’re wanting to go down.

I know that the military also has a medical school. That’s certainly one opportunity, and I think if you go to that medical school, your medical school education is paid for, or you have to serve afterwards, but it is paid for and you emerge debt free, which is pretty nice. But what are other things, especially if somebody’s coming out of the military, maybe they were a medic in the military, what should they be doing? And Sydney, why don’t you take that one? [27:49]Sydney Matthes:

I think a lot of it depends, and this is where we do a lot of educating with our admissions colleagues as well, is the job that someone could have in the military, it’s going to depend where they’re at in terms of rank, at least from my understanding. So my husband works as a JAG, he has a law degree, but he also works with paralegals. Some of them don’t have a bachelor’s degree.

Just for civilians, what’s a JAG? [28:43]Sydney Matthes:

For sure. He’s a lawyer for the Army, is essentially what it comes down to. He went to law school and then joined the Army afterwards. But to go back to your medic example, one of his paralegals was thinking about going to medical school. And I was saying, okay, well, what’s some experiences you can get through the military that can help show an admissions office that you have an interest in medicine that, that’s your journey? Putting him in a position to get that experience. Like you were asking about previously, should they join the workforce before they apply to some of these graduate programs? But if you can check both of those boxes from your time in service before you get out, then you’re getting paid to check that box while you’re still on your active duty assignment.

But to your point about the medical program, we had several friends that are military doctors, and they had their whole medical school paid for. They also have a residency, and take all of that part out of it too. You don’t necessarily have to do the matching when that comes with medical school residency programs. So I think when you can use the military to get that experience at whatever degree program through undergrad, I think that sets you up to double check a lot of those boxes, and use your time as efficiently, as effectively as you can.

We also once had an interview, this was a few years ago, with a representative of military medical recruiting. It’s episode 266.You have research oriented-programs, you have terminal masters programs, and let’s say engineering or public policy, all kinds of programs. So talking about grad, a very broad category, can be pretty difficult. What can veterans do to prepare themselves for those kinds of programs? Really broad strokes. [30:00]Sydney Matthes:

Yeah, I think researching your why, figuring out why you might go into one of these more specific programs. Like I said, I knew for me, higher ed, I wanted to understand the ins and outs and how it works. So a higher education administration made sense for me. But does the field that you’re transitioning into, does the career, does it require an advanced degree? It’s a lot of what I ask my applicants that are applying to some of those more specific graduate programs, are you going into a PhD because you think it’s going to make you more marketable or is it going to lead to career progression, or are you just truly interested in learning that field? So much of it, I think, comes back to your, why? Why would you invest four years, three years for law school to then come out with a law degree? What do you want to do with it? What is your why, I think is the most important to reflect on.

That’s great advice, because many, if not most or all graduate programs, most require something called a statement of purpose. And if you don’t have a why, you don’t have a purpose. And it’s extremely difficult to write a statement of purpose without a purpose. Alec, what are Student to Services requirements for participants in its programs, other than being active duty or veterans? [31:49]Alec Emmert:

That’s really it. If you’ve served your country, we’re here to serve you. It’s more so I’d say the timeline. We’ve got a ton of free resources on our website. We do the fairs that Sydney discussed. We’ve got programs that are open to all veterans. When it comes to ambassador pairing, we try to pair them with the ambassador at the time that their application is going to be completed. So if you’re in theory, say you’re applying for an intake in the fall of 2024, we’ll pair you up with that ambassador in the fall of 2023, so that you can get your application worked on then when it’s due.

But oftentimes, people will reach out to us two years before they actually have to have their applications prepped. They’re just really interested in getting our feedback on different programs, and advice. And so, we’re always open to that. And then typically, we’ll set reminders as a staff to reach out to these people. Again, check in with them, see how they’re doing. But when it comes to the actual, where the rubber meets the road, you get paired with an ambassador and you work on your application, we tend to do that right when that application is actually going to be due.

And is there any requirement, I thought I saw online, but I might have misread it, that they need to have their test if the program they’re applying to requires a test. [33:37]Sydney Matthes:

Yeah. On our website, it’ll list the teams what their requirement is in terms of testing. We like to see at least an unofficial score for an exam that’s different from enlisted versus officer. So it will vary on the program that they’re interested in applying to. But we do like to see at least a practice test, some investment in moving towards that application timeline.

People coming from the military, they have this wonderful, rich, and distinctive experience, which schools would value, but it’s hard to understand. Much like, I had to look up J-A-G, judicial something, something. Can you give me any tips or advice on how service members or vets, can translate their experience so that readers don’t have to constantly be Googling acronyms, and application readers can better appreciate the quality of their experience and the relevance of their experience in the private sector. [34:12]Alec Emmert:

The easiest thing that I tell people is, don’t put acronyms in your resume.

I’ll give you a perfect example of one client I had. I was working with, he was an MBA applicant and he had a very impressive job. He was working for, and I’m going to tell you the way he described. He says, “And I was an aide to the CNO.” Okay, the CNO is the Chief of Naval Operations, that is effectively the head of the US Navy on active duty. I’ve got to remember my numbers here. I think it’s on the order of 200,000 active duty personnel, and another 200,000 reservists. So what we’re looking at is someone who’s equivalent to the CEO of a Fortune 100 company.

I talked to the individual saying, what you did is very impressive, but anyone who’s reading that resume is not going to know who the CNO is. Yes, people in the military know, but other people don’t. So you can say something to like, Chief of Naval Operations, parenthesis, CEO equivalent of a 400,000 person organization. And so, just put something like that, so when an MBA ADCOM reads it like, “Wow.”

And the use of numbers is critical, right? [36:14]Alec Emmert:

Yes. Oh, yes, yes. And so, that’s key. I say always, numbers create impact. And say for example things like, ranked number one out of 10 peers, something like, led to a 20% improvement in unit readiness, things like that. So numbers as much as possible, and no acronyms.

Okay, great. Sydney, can you top it? [36:37]Sydney Matthes:

I don’t think so. I think I would echo everything he says. I mean, even still, my spouse has been in for 12 years and I am constantly learning new acronyms. I’m going to ask them for a dictionary.

So if I’m feeling it, admissions officers, admissions readers, they’re 100% feeling it too if you’re seeing acronyms and words they’re not used to, coming across their desk.

Let’s say we have an active duty military person who has six to nine months between separation from the military and when they hope to start their graduate program, whatever it might be. Do you have a recommendation for what they should do during that period? [37:10]Alec Emmert:

So the short answer is, you can do a lot of things, and it really comes down to the individual and what they feel they need. So a lot of times a service member will have been deployed a lot. They’ll be really burned out from the grueling military experience, and maybe just taking six months to relax to go sit on a beach for a bit. One of my friends went to Bali and surfed for six months before business school.

And that was what he needed. He had been very stressful, very stressful deployments and was burned out mentally. And before he embarked on the next phase of his life, he really just needed that reset. Now, at the same time, there’s other people who are just dead set on getting that investment banking job, that private equity job. And the best thing for them might be pursuing a pre MBA internship. So I think that the key really is for you to take a look at yourself, figure out what you need before you make that next jump.

If somebody is now thinking of applying to an MBA program this upcoming cycle, they have time to plan. And you can expand that to other grad applications too, but well, not healthcare. You’re hitting the ground running now, especially MD and DO. But all right, let’s keep it to MBA and JD. It’s now probably 15 months until they will start their program. And let’s say they’ve already separated, what would be your suggestions for them? So they’re applying presumably later this summer, maybe the fall, and they’re hoping to start their MBA summer 2024. [38:59]Alec Emmert:

So for that person, I think the number one priority is figuring out where you want to go to school, because that’s going to drive all of your decisions, because if you want to go to one of the top MBA programs, you’re going to have to get a very strong GMAT or GRE score. But if your aspirations aren’t as lofty, then you don’t necessarily have to spend as much time stressing about that GMAT or GRE. So my recommendation is really, set your target, figure out what you need to get there, and then you need to start reaching out to Service to School as the first step, I always tell people to do.

If you’re interested in going to any form of advanced education, send us a note, we’ll get you in the system, we’ll start rolling with you. And then reach out to the veterans clubs at the different schools you’re interested in applying to, because those people can generally give you some good insights. And then they’ll often have veteran visit days. So for example, Wharton has, I believe it’s semi-annual veterans visit day, where if you’re interested in going, people two, three years out will just go there, just see what Wharton’s all about, meet with some vets, sit in a classroom and see if that’s really for them. So I’d say that the first step is, setting your target, figuring out what you’re going to need to get on your standardized test to get there, and then networking with veterans who have walked the road you want to walk.

Sydney Matthes:

I mean, as you’re researching schools, encouraging them to think about how they’re going to pay for it. So if we’re talking about utilizing your GI bill or any financial aid, what that could look like for you if you’re going to pay out of pocket. That’s a big part too of figuring out what that school or that program fit is. So would definitely encourage the financial piece to be a big conversation that you start with when you’re thinking through, okay, what is this program going to cost me over the course of three plus years?

I would actually like to add something to Alec’s point if I could, not specifically military, because if it was, I couldn’t be adding anything. But in general, I am a firm believer that graduate decisions should be guided by what you want to do after the graduate program. So if you start researching your schools, you have to really know the direction you want to take afterwards, and then that becomes a true north star in guiding where you also apply. Now, hopefully there’s not a disconnect between qualifications and your goals, that’s sometimes a problem, but if that aligns, then the whole process becomes much, much easier. [41:48]Alec Emmert:

Oh, yeah. No, of course. And I’m going to throw in one more thing I forgot: Family buy-in.

You’re going to have to ask your significant other if they’re okay with you taking the time off from being in the private sector, for sacrificing several years of income, and for them to disrupt their lives to go where you want to go to school, if that’s something they’re on board with. And I think that it’s very important to set expectations with your family members and make sure that they’re really on board with your decision to apply to graduate school if you do have a family.

I do want to ask you about your new book. Can you tell us about it a little bit, Alec? [43:03]Alec Emmert:

Yeah. The book is called, Breaking Business School, The Savvy Veteran’s 10-Step Guide to MBA Success. It’s free on Kindle. So if you just go to Amazon, you can get it for free there. And basically, I learned many lessons the hard way between the military and business school. I spent five years in the private sector. I tried many different options as we discussed. I had a part-time business degree in finance, I worked for a consulting firm, and I learned a lot in the process. And when I was getting out, I got out of the Navy in 2012, left active service then, and there wasn’t really that much information out there. And so, what I did was, I set out to write the book I wish I had, had in 2012, which really gives the whole start-to-finish process of business school in terms of what careers can you get with a full-time MBA, what you’ll be competitive for, especially as a veteran where you can really put your best foot forward, what it takes to get into particular schools, and then the differences between part-time degrees, full-time degrees.

And really, then once you get to school, what to expect and how to succeed once you’re at business school, because that’s a very important variable, because just because you get into a top business school, does not mean you’re going to get that top job. You have to be very deliberate when you get to that school, be focused, set your target, and prepare for your job interviews. And then it closes out with, once you’ve already got that job offer, how can you really maximize your experience while you’re there at that school? And one of the big things there is becoming a Service to School ambassador, and paying it forward.

What question would you like to answer that I haven’t asked? [44:58]Sydney Matthes:

Yeah, I think the question would be, why not go after some of these top schools? Why not put yourself in the ring to be admitted to the top business schools or the top law schools in the country? We’ve worked with an applicant. She used to work here on staff, Service to School. She’s enlisted Navy, started undergraduate at Yale, and is now in law school at Yale. So to sell yourself short and not to give yourself the best opportunity after your time in service, why not?

Alec Emmert:

This is one is, how old is too old for an MBA?

Alec Emmert:

Because there was so much bad information about this, and there’s this myth going around, I remember. So when I got out, I was 30, and I actually thought I was too old to go to business school.

And there’s this bad information that circulates around where I think I’d heard a few people say, oh, you’re not competitive for a top program if you’re in your 30s. Or things like, Wharton only wants people that are in their late 20s at the oldest. And I said, “Well, I’m 30, I’m not going to be competitive, so I’m not really going to waste my time with it.” And the reality is really that you set your own pace.

If you are at a point in your career where you think an MBA, a full-time MBA I’m talking about, is the right move for you, if you want to take two years off, hit the reset button, pursue a different career field, then a 100%, go for it. And don’t really listen to the rumors that are out there, because there is an exception to every, quote, unquote, rule out there. And so, at the end of the day, you figure out what you want, reach out to Service to School, and we’ll help you get there.

May I ask, would you mind telling us how old you were when you got your MBA, when you started your MBA? [46:59]Alec Emmert:

Yeah, I was 35 years old. Graduated when I was 37, and I was not the oldest person in my class.

I will say, my experience is that sometimes older MBA applicants that are coming from the military, and less so coming from the military, sometimes have a harder time, because they have a harder time justifying the time off from a career, but it is not impossible. We have worked with people also in their mid 30s, I think even 40s, who’ve gone. Alec and Sydney, thank you so much for joining me today. I’ve enjoyed chatting with both of you about Service to School. And Alec, thank you for your service, and Sydney, thanks to your husband for his service. [47:11]Relevant Links:

• Service 2 School
• Breaking Business School, The Savvy Veteran’s 10-Step Guide to MBA Success
• Academic De-Greening, Part 2: Applying to Graduate School After Military Service
• Journey to Duke Fuqua: Marine-Turned-MBA, Entrepreneur, and Dad
• 38 Ways to Use the Power of Numbers in Your Admissions Resume
• Applying to Regular Full-Time MBA Programs as an Older Applicant

Related shows:

• An NYU Stern Grad and Strat Consultant Helping Vets Get Into School
• The Unbelievable Story of an Orthopedic Surgeon – Episode 136
• Transitioning from the Military to an MBA at Stanford GSB – Episode 471
• From the Military to Haas MBA – Episode 223
• The Military: One Way to Get an MD Debt-Free – Episode 266
• Wearing My Military Uniform in the Business World
• The Questions You SHOULD Be Asking – ANSWERED! – Episode 500
• How to Get Accepted to MIT Sloan MBA – Episode 498

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In this episode Dr. Ben Bernstein, author of Crush Your Test Anxiety, explains the role of mind, body, and spirit in performance enhancement. [SHOW SUMMARY]While aptitude tests are increasingly optional in graduate admissions, tests are a constant in graduate school and frequently in one’s career. How can you manage your stress and anxiety when facing a test, be it the MCAT, LSAT, MCAT, GRE, licensing exams, continuing education exams, or subject exams while in school? How can you perform at your best during a test? Dr. Bernstein will tell you how.

An interview with author, coach, psychologist, and educator, Dr. Ben Bernstein, on how to crush text anxiety to raise test scores. [SHOW NOTES]Welcome to the 521st episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Before we meet our guest, I’d like to highlight the featured resource for today’s episode, Fitting In & Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions. Realize that the challenge at the heart of admissions is showing that you both fit in at your target schools and are a standout in the applicant pool. Accepted’s free download, Fitting In & Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions, will show you how to do both. Master this paradox and you are well on your way to acceptance.

Our guest today is Dr. Ben Bernstein, author of Crush Your Test Anxiety, and presenter of the masterclass by the same name, Dr. Bernstein or Dr. B as he prefers to be known, has been a performance coach for a wide variety of top performers, including Academy Award, Tony Award, and Pulitzer Prize winners, as well as CEOs, athletes, physicians, opera singers, and actors. Dr. Bernstein is the author of Crush Your Test Anxiety and three other books. He also posts regularly on Psychology Today. Dr. Bernstein graduated from Bowdoin College and earned his doctorate in applied psychology from the University of Toronto. In addition, he holds a master’s degree in music composition from Mills College. Parallel to his career in psychology and education, Dr. Bernstein has extensive involvement in the performing arts.

Dr. Bernstein, thanks for being a guest on Admissions Straight Talk. [2:21]It is totally my pleasure, Linda. Thank you for inviting me.

My pleasure. Let’s start with something really basic. What is a performance psychologist? [2:29]Well, a performance psychologist is a term that I gave myself because I didn’t know that one existed and the reason I gave it to myself was I was trained as a therapist, but when I started in private practice, I found that I didn’t really take to that form of work, meaning that I’m a very active guy and I was really wanting to coach people more than do therapy with them, and so that meant I just started looking at where people wanted to perform better in their lives. Early on, it was parents or teachers, but then it became athletes and actors and dentists and doctors, and so that’s what I do is that I’m really looking for what a person’s potential is and what may be getting in the way of that. So we’re looking at their performance, and hence, I’m a performance psychologist.

How did you get into it? Was it just a matter of the fact that you didn’t care for more traditional forms of therapy or- [3:36]No, thank you though. It’s a good question. So I started out, as a young child, I was brought up in New York City, and I was a very prodigious piano player. I love playing piano, and I played very well. However, that got, sidetracked is not quite the right word, but I got pushed into recitals and competitions and national auditions and all the kinds of things that a seven, eight, nine, 10 year old might, me, really did not like, and I had severe performance anxiety. And no one helped me, actually. It was all like, what’s the matter with you and you’ll grow out of it and it’s all in your head and all these things that were completely not helpful.

I stopped playing the piano at age 14 completely. Didn’t pick it up again for almost 30 years, but what lingered in the background was that all this anxiety about performing, and it morphed into getting up in class or giving speeches and even acting because I loved getting on stage, but I had so much anxiety. So I had to actually find the way through this myself, through a lot of introspection and therapy and good teaching, really good teachers. Part of what I feel about life is that we’re all here to serve and this is my best way of serving people, which is to help them or work with them through their performance issues so they can perform at their best.

That’s a very interesting answer. Thank you for that. So it was really a combination of your own experience combined with your training, really. [5:12]Exactly, yeah, and I would say also combined with a faith, belief that we’re all here to really serve the greater good. We’re all here to help each other in one way. You’re doing it in your way, I’m doing it in my way. So we find our way to doing that pretty much through our own experiences.

I recently read a quote by the late Rabbi Lord Dr. Jonathan Sacks, and it was that our mission is to do what we like doing, I’m paraphrasing, obviously, I don’t have it memorized, what we are meant to do is what we like doing, and what the world needs done. [5:38]I love it. That’s perfect.

And I thought that was brilliant. [5:59]It is. It’s perfect. What the world needs, exactly.

And what we enjoy. It’s a combination. It’s both of them. [6:04]You bet. Totally.

Let’s go back to the topic of performance and what sometimes inhibits performance, let’s say, and that is stress or anxiety. What are those things? Are they different? Are they the same? [6:10]Well, no, they’re not the same. They’re different. They may trigger each other. Anxiety usually is a fear of what’s coming. You’re anxious about a test that you’re going to take or a speech you’re going to give or a performance review you’re going to have. It’s a fear often associated with what’s coming down the pike. Stress is different, and this is a really important question in terms of the work that I do. So the reason why is because there’s a known scientifically proven relationship between stress and performance. We know this from over 100 years of research, that stress affects performance and it’s a bell curve. Too little stress, you have to imagine a curve, too little stress, performance goes down, you don’t care, what’s the difference.

Too much stress, you’re freaked out and performance goes down, but in that top of the curve is where you actually have just the right amount of stress and that’s where you perform at your best. Now, having said that, most people really have, I have to say the wrong idea about what stress is because I talk all over the world and I ask people, what is stress, and they say things like, “Well, stress is my kids and stress is my spouse. Stress is the government, stress is taxes, stress is climate change, stress is COVID,” and it’s all what I call carpal tunnel finger pointing syndrome, pointing the finger at other things, which actually suggests, if you think about it for a minute, if all those things change, my kids calm down, my mother-in-law went away, my taxes stopped, COVID was all over, then my life would totally work.

Well, it just does not work like that. This is all life. So what is stress? Stress is what we experience when we react to certain life events, and particularly when we don’t like something, it’s not happening the way we want it to happen, we get frustrated or angry and we feel stressed. We think it’s the other person causing that, but the other person is just the other person, and it’s our reaction to that. Now, certain things in life, definitely certain life events are more stress provoking. You get ill, a bank fails, they can provoke that kind of reaction, but stress is what you feel because what I say is because you’re actually disconnecting, and I could go into that further, but it’s a different definition of stress.

How does disconnection come in? [9:00]Well, disconnection comes in very important ways. I’m going to take the macro level first, which is quantum physics and all of spirituality basically says the same thing, which is that we all-

And you’re going to do it in less than three minutes, all quantum physics and spirituality. [9:12]This is like a quiz show, Linda. Now, I’m going to do it in two.

But we’ve already used up about 20 seconds. Okay, quantum physics and all schools of spirituality basically teach the same thing, which is that everything is interconnected. There is no separation. That’s very hard for us to get our heads around, but think about it this way. When you’re taking a test, when you’re giving a speech, when you’re in your kitchen, when you’re driving a car, there are three parts of you, your body, your mind, and your spirit. When all three parts are operating at top level, stress is just at the right place, but when you disconnect in your body, your mind, or the spirit, that’s when you experience stress.

So disconnection in the body would mean, for instance, when you stop breathing. I watch thousands of people take tests and they stop breathing right at the first minute. Your brain is getting the message that you’re dying, stress is going up, performance going down. So I don’t know if I’ve used up my three minutes, but we disconnect in the body. In the mind, we disconnect because we say to ourselves, I can’t handle this. I’m not able. I’m incapable, negative disconnection, and then the spirit, which is the thing we talk least about, but I think it’s the most important, we disconnect because we either don’t have a goal for our spirit to be focused or we keep getting distracted. When we disconnect, that’s when we feel stress.

But you also said that stress can be a good thing. [10:38]Yes. A certain amount of stress is necessary. The reason why is because we’re never going to be without stress. I was on an airplane and somebody asked me what I did and I said stress doctor because people call me that, and he said, “Well, the absence of stress is death,” and I said, “How do you know? Nobody knows what that’s like, but life is stress provoking because there’s always going to be challenging situations. We’re always going to disconnect a little bit. The key is not to disconnect so much that you feel stressed and then your performance goes down. You’re always connecting, reconnecting, disconnecting. So just some of that is okay, but too much of that is going to drive your performance down.

How can stress or non-academic issues, and by non-academic, I mean non-knowledge related issues, impede performance on a test? [11:33]Well, I’ve watched thousands of people take tests and if you watch them carefully, really carefully, you’ll see that when they open the textbook, literally, they pull it up on the screen, they go, huh. So this is for the people who are listening. I just held my breath. Now, when you hold your breath, what’s the message your brain is getting? You’re dying. So is your stress going up or down? Of course, it’s going up. That’s a disconnection, and if you keep doing that for three or four hours, two things happen. You become exhausted, which happens to many test takers on big tests, and also your reasoning ability, your ability to really think just goes down. So that’s a very simple thing.

Another example would be that you look at an item, well, this is a little bit more content related. You look at an item and you think, I don’t know. I don’t understand this. I don’t know what it means. That’s a confidence issue. No test is going to give you something that’s completely out of the domain of what that test is going to be or what you studied, or another non-academic issue would be you get distracted. If you’re in a room with people taking tests and somebody starts to wipe their brow or cough or sigh and you get distracted by all that, you’re disconnecting, your stress is going to go up. So it’s a great question actually because most people think it’s about academic issues and it’s not. So I appreciate the question a lot.

What kind of non-academic prep can enhance performance on exam day? [13:18]All kinds of things. So one thing is that I teach people something called three point breathing, which I’m happy to offer to all your listeners, and the way this works is that, but you have to train with this if you’re about to take an exam. You can’t just do it on test day because you have to really be practiced. Three point breathing, you exhale before you read a question, you exhale before you read the answer choices, and the third point is you exhale after you bubble in an answer. Now what that does is it keeps you from holding your breath so you’re able to stay in a much more, I’m going to say relaxed state throughout the course of the test, and you don’t get tired at the end of three hours and you’re able to think more clearly. So that helps a lot of people over the years that I trained to do that, but again, you have to practice this. You just can’t do it on test day.

It’d probably be great to practice independent of tests and then perhaps on practice exams. [14:22]Definitely. Definitely. And how about the rest of your life?

True too. [14:24]Well, but you think about it. Just anticipating you’re going to have a performance review with your boss, if you really check in with your breath, chances are when you’re thinking about that, most likely, you’re going to be holding your breath if you’re feeling anxious about it. Holding the breath and anxiety are completely connected. So you practice more, but the way you do it, it’s not complicated. If you feel that nervousness starting to ramp up, the sooner you catch it and you exhale and you feel the chair under you and you just let go, it’s going to help you. What happens with most people is that they will wait too long when they’re really ramped up and then the tools are minimally helpful. They’re helpful, but they can’t as quickly get you back to that middle place, that zone.

Now, on your website, I was looking at it a little bit and preparing for the call today. What is “the zone” that you talk about? [15:27]Yeah, sure. Well, it’s most frequently used by athletes, and when athletes have a really good performance, like LeBron James scores 40 points and whatever, and you swim and you’re exceeding your record, they will often use the phrase, “Man, I was really in the zone.” And what they’re referring to is that middle part of the graph where stress is just right. That’s what they’re actually referring to, but when they talk about it, it sounds mystical. One of my teachers called it misty moisty. It sounds like, whoa, it just came on me. It’s not magical or mystical. It’s what you can affect by becoming aware when your stress is building and then using tools to get you back. So it’s actually a conscious process of awareness and tools. So the zone is that place of optimal performance, but it’s not magical.

Not magical, it’s not mystical. [16:42]It’s not misty moisty.

And it’s one of the things that you do as performance psychology, psychologist rather, is help people get into that zone and maintain that zone? [16:48]Yes, of course. That’s great. That’s the whole point of this work.

Bear with me. I have to correct a couple of words. I don’t help people do anything. I train them to be aware when they’re slipping out of the zone and how to get themselves back using tools. Now, an important thing here to know is that everybody’s optimal level of stress is different. You have kids, you know what I’m talking about. My optimal level of stress is very different from my wife.

I can do four or five or six different things seemingly at once. My wife likes to do one thing at a time, and the worst thing we can do is look at another person and go, “What’s wrong with you? Why are you stressing out?” That’s terrible because that’s what’s going on with them. It’s different from us. So my work is about working with people so that they have a sense of what their optimal level of stress is and when they start to exceed that, how to get themselves back.

How does what you do relate to or complement traditional test prep? [18:05]Well, it complements it. It relates to it and complements it. Traditional test prep, which has been around for quite a long time, really, the function of traditional test prep, and I think this is an accurate statement, is to very deeply familiarize yourself with the test you’re about to take. In other words, how is the test structured? What does it actually cover? How is the time allotted? What are the different elements of the test? So if it’s a multiple choice or short answers or essays. There are many things that you really need to know about the test structurally, but also content wise. On an ACT math test, there are six or seven, I think, domains of math that are tested. So you really need to know that’s what test prep traditionally does, which is training you to become familiar with the test itself, but also deeper dive into the content of the test.

What I do is give people performance tools so they can stay in that more zone state. So what does that actually mean? It means that they’re calm, they’re confident, and they’re focused, calm in the body, confident in the mind, and focused in the spirit. I get people, for years, I’ve gotten people who will do very well on practice tests, but then they take the actual test. I don’t say the real test because it’s all real. They take the actual test and then they tank, and that phenomenon fascinates me. How can you cross over a threshold and then be a different person, but that’s because they haven’t been trained in becoming more self-aware, they’re aware of the test, but not more self-aware and take that awareness into the performance itself. This is what good athletes do. They’re ready to really perform and we don’t teach performance tools. That’s what I do.

You mentioned the breathing exercise. What are some of your other top tools, if you don’t mind sharing? You don’t have to give them all, just a couple. [20:15]No, I don’t mind sharing at all. I invented this model that puts them together, but it turns out there are nine tools, three for being calm, three for being confident, three for being focused. So the top three in each, I call them leg of the stool, think of a three-legged stool, the top one in staying calm has to be breathing. So I didn’t invent the tools, I invented the model. Breathing’s been around for a long time, and if you think about it, there’s a reason that thousands of years ago, the saints, the sages, the rishis, and rishi because in India and China were all talking about breathing then thousands of years ago.

Okay. So that’s one. In the mind, it’s very important that you immediately recognize when you’re saying something negative about yourself, and in the sense you confide that. You don’t try to push it down. I really don’t know what to do here, and there’s a way that I have to do. Unless you really accept that and admit that, you’re going to be fighting it, and for focus, the biggest tool for focus is to become aware when you’re getting distracted and stop your distraction. Just stop it in its tracks. An example from not testing would be I’m wanting to lose, which I am, another five or eight pounds and I am hungry and there’s an apple and there’s a donut. Okay. You get this picture here already?

I got it, I got it well. [21:53]Thank you. So I go, distraction is donut, focus is apple. All right, good. You got that.

No problem, but I think distraction is a big issue today for people not even taking tests, just constantly staying focused is something I think we’re all challenged by without any tests involved. How can we enhance focus and minimize distraction even if we don’t have a donut staring at us and we’re trying to lose 10 pounds? [22:01]Well, it’s such a good question. Let’s backtrack a little bit. Focus in the dictionary is a noun and a verb. The noun is the goal and the verb are the actions that take you to the goal. So the answer to your question is what is your goal? Be clear about your goal. If you want to minimize distraction, be clear about your goal, but also be clear that there are going to be actions that take you to the goal, apple, and actions that don’t take you to the goal, donut.

So it’s consistently becoming aware that you have this goal, but then when you come to a choice, that you make the appropriate choices. You’re totally right. Distraction is like the other pandemic that’s been going on and getting worse and worse and worse. So we have to stick to what we really want to achieve, what our intention is, and do that through our action. Really, that’s the only way, but there are other things too, I would say that contribute to that. Turn off your phone.

Turn off your notifications on your phone. [23:30]Exactly. We don’t have a car. I ride a bicycle and we live in the Bay Area, and the other day, and I’m a pretty careful bicyclist, they have a lot of bike lanes. The other day, I was going across an intersection and somebody pulled around me to make a right turn, and this guy was looking at his phone while he was making a turn and he missed me by, I would say six inches.

So this is very dangerous stuff, really dangerous stuff. I have Zoom calls all the time and four to five times, the person’s always doing something else than talking to me and they think they look like they’re talking to me, but I have a huge antenna for this stuff and they’re doing something else. So now, I begin every call on this distraction note by just saying, look, I have a thing about people getting distracted while they’re talking to me. Could you please turn off all other devices, and most people are pretty cool with that.

You think that they’re also paying you, that you think they would want to get maximum value. [24:34]Good point, Linda.

Are there different processes for performance enhancement when facing an academic test as opposed to life’s tests like public speaking, an interview, an artistic performance, or simply a difficult situation where you really have to step up to the plate and perform perhaps without the opportunity to prepare or study or do prep? [24:45]Well, that last part of your question is really the hook, without preparation.

Well, then maybe there are two different questions. You can prepare for an interview, you can prepare for public speaking, but there are also tests that you don’t know are coming. [25:12]Right. No. And also, even if you prepare for an interview or an examination, there will be things happening that you have not imagined necessarily, or you haven’t practiced. So the question is an excellent one. I don’t think it’s different processes as much as cultivating your awareness when your stress level is rising. So that would be different in different people. Stress level rising, you would feel that in the body, your pulse would increase. You might feel a little headache or stomach cramp or something like that. In the mind, you would be starting to say something negative to yourself. Somebody throws you a question. I had a client this morning and she was talking about an experience where she was teaching the class and somebody threw her a question and she got nervous.

So what does that mean? Well, she had physical symptoms, but she was telling herself as the person finished the question, I don’t know what to say. I don’t know how to answer this. So what I told her, which is, again, awareness, when she became aware that she was saying that, just to take a moment to pause, to ground herself, and let herself come back into a state where she could answer the question. So it always comes down to being calm, confident, focused. Why? Because it’s always body, mind, and spirit. So you need to know when you’re feeling that kind of stress yourself, you need to say I’m disconnected, body, mind, spirit, and you can start anywhere. Think of a three-legged stool. The three legs are dynamically connected. If you move one, it’s going to affect the other two. So I think the question is really great because we’re always faced with tests all day long.

That’s right. We really are, constantly, constant. [27:10]Constant. Yeah. I’m just thinking on a much more mundane level, your child runs in the room and goes, “Daddy, daddy, daddy,” and you go, “Calm down.” Well, that’s not helping anybody.

Well, generally telling somebody who’s excited to calm down doesn’t do any good. [27:29]No, of course not, but what people don’t realize is they just got induced into that other person’s state. The kid at this point is all worked up. You can be so helpful if you calm down and then can deal with whatever his issue is, but often, people just get swept right into other people’s stress, which is really problematic.

I sometimes have told some of my grandkids that are upset about something and screaming or yelling or crying I say, “I can’t hear you. You’re talking too loud.” That usually calms them down. [27:53]Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, you’re a good grandma. That’s good.

What tips do you have, and I think we’ve touched on this already really, but I’ll ask it again so you can review, for, let’s say, reducing tension when actually, we were talking a little bit about prep or not being able to prep, but when you’re in a situation and you’re in the interview chair and you get a question that throws you for a loop, again, is it just take a minute to think mind, body, spirit and I’m going to do the best I can? [28:10]Well, yes. Let’s see. Let me think about this for one second.

You’re in an interview chair or a test chair, and you get a question that throws you for a loop. You don’t know how to answer it. [28:45]Well, I think it’s perfectly fine to, and this comes from years of coaching people to take oral exams, for instance, or interviews. It’s perfectly fine to say I need a moment to think about this. You only feel pressured to answer quickly because of habit, experience, expectation, or you’re imagining that you’re going to not seem smart if you have to take some time to think of it. It’s perfectly fine to think about something. It’s also perfectly fine to say at the first instance, I don’t have an immediate answer for that. I need to think about it a little bit.

But in order to think about it, you do have to calm yourself down because if you’re not calm, you’re going to be thinking about how nervous you are so you won’t have room to think about it, but there’s another part to your question, which I would like to say and suggest. I think it’s very helpful to do what athletes almost always do before a competition. They imagine it. They go through it in a guided imagery way. They see it from start to finish. They see themselves performing at their best, they see themselves overcoming obstacles, they see themselves dealing with the challenge.

Now, what does that do? That actually does a whole bunch of things, which is there’s a whole bunch of muscle memory things that are going on, but it also is if you can do it in your imagination, chances are you can do it on the outside too. If you think about it, everything that we see or touch, not in the plant world, but in the physical world, other physical worlds are created first in somebody’s imagination. This microphone I’m sitting in front of, my desk, where you are, it all started in the imagination. So why not apply that to our own lives where we imagine something before? A good example of this on a very literal level is when you see a phone call come in because the caller ID and you think, ugh, ugh, God, this person, stressful.

I don’t want to talk to that person. [31:10]Yeah, don’t pick up the phone immediately. Exhale, ground yourself. Just come back to a state of openness, readiness to deal with what you have to deal with, and if you’re not ready, just don’t answer. Let it go to voicemail because you’ll avoid an unpleasant experience.

Good advice, especially for the unpleasant call. Either deal with it, take a deep breath and deal with it, or postpone it. You don’t have to deal with it. [31:22]My wife helped me a lot with emails because I would get an email and then I have to answer it, and I got myself in some hot water with that because either my answer was too short or it wasn’t considerate or whatever, and she helped me a lot with that, which is like, okay, write out an answer, but don’t hit send. Just write out an answer and come back to it. Is that really what I want to say? Am I saying it in the best way possible? We feel so rushed in our culture to be just, we have to do it now, and have to be perfect. All of this has to, has to, and it’s not really how we work as human beings.

Well, email in particular is a very cold medium. [32:15]Yes, exactly. Definitely. Yeah.

It’s very useful, but it can be very cold. [32:21]Cold is very good. I never heard it described as a cold medium. That’s an excellent adjective.

Thank you. What would you have liked me to ask you that I haven’t asked you? [32:29]What would I have liked? Well, it’s more like what I would like to say. So if I can turn around that way. I do what I do because we’re not trained in our educational system to do things in a calm and confident and focused way. Our educational system in general, and I’m not talking about particular schools and particular teachers. I’m talking about the system, is run like an assembly line, which is how it was created in the industrial revolution. You do this, you do this, you do this, you do this, and you pop out with a degree and then you get a job, and that does not create the environment for real learning, for real growth, for retention, for all of those things.

And so when people come to me and say, “I want to get a 1550 on my SAT or a 36 on ACT, or I want to get the highest score on my LSAT or whatever,” I say to them, “Look, I want that for you too and I really want to work with you so that you can get into that score level, but the reason I’m doing this work is because you should have learned this stuff in the second grade because these are life tools, how to be calm and confident,” to folks. You said this before, we’re faced with life, challenges, tests every single day and we don’t teach in our educational system, truly, we don’t really teach what’s useful for life. We teach a whole bunch of other things, and my shorthand, smartest way of saying this, how much do you remember from the fourth grade? Almost nothing, and it goes on and on like that.

And I really do think there’s a failing that we have to correct. I have the great good fortune to have been trained as a teacher in extremely progressive, wonderful schools in England that were in very poor neighborhoods, but the kids loved to come to school. Why? Because they were being cultivated as individuals, as creative people, as part of a community. It was more lifelike than anything I had experienced as a kid. So that’s what I really want to say, which is that we need to be learning life tools and then when we’re faced with any test, we can deal with it in a good way, and I really appreciate how you’re bringing all the different tests in because we are faced with tests all the time. So thank you for allowing me to ask the question that I wanted to answer.

You’re very welcome. I like a quote my daughter’s friend once said, and I later heard it was a Tom Bodett quote, that in school, you have lessons and take tests. In life, you have tests and learn lessons. [35:20]Oh my goodness, that, wow. Please put that in your website or the chat or something. I really got to remember that one. That’s great.

Where can listeners learn more about your work if they’re interested in performance enhancement on test day or in other situations in life? Where can they learn about you and your work? [35:51]The best place is my website. Now, when we go to the website, there are all kinds of resources, and one of them, if you have tests issues, would be a course called Crush Your Test Anxiety. So you look in the menu for courses, but there’s all kinds of other resources there, links to my blog on Psychology Today, and then I also want to just say I’m happy if somebody wants to consult with me. You get on my calendar, we have a 20-minute consultation. I get to ask you a lot of questions and tell you about how I work and see if there’s a fit for working together.

Related Resources:

• Dr. Ben Bernstein’s website
• Dr. Bernstein on Psychology Today
• Fitting in and Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions– a free guide

Related shows:

• Casper, A Situational Judgment Test: All You Need to Know [Episode 513]
• LSAT and Law School News [ Episode 509]
• Ace the Executive Assessment [Episode 483]
• Testing, Testing, 1-2-3: What’s the Right Test Prep For You? [Episode 443]
• How to Eliminate Test Anxiety [Episode 427]

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The post Crush the Test by Crushing Your Test Anxiety [Episode 521] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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In this episode the Associate Global Director of Admissions & Financial Aid at INSEAD discusses the school’s unique language requirement, the role of the GRE/GMAT in admissions, and what to include in the optional essay. [SHOW SUMMARY]Are you a citizen of the world? Is it your goal to be a leader in international business? Then you should consider the Business School for the World: INSEAD.

An interview with INSEAD’s Teresa Peiro, Associate Director of Global Admissions, Degree Programmes. [SHOW NOTES]Welcome to the 520th episode of Admission Straight Talk, Accepted podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Sometimes I am asked, “Is the MBA worth it?” And my answer is, “It depends on your individual circumstances.” But I’ve got good news. We’ve developed a tool that will help you evaluate whether an MBA is worth it for you and your individual circumstances and by how much. Check how much you’re likely to benefit – or not – from the MBA. And using it won’t set you back even one cent. It’s free.

It gives me great pleasure to have for the first time on Admissions Straight Talk. Teresa Piero, Associate Director of Global Admissions and Financial Aid at INSEAD, the Business School for the World. Teresa worked in marketing for several years before joining INSEAD in 2011. She focused more on MBA programs initially, but in 2021 became the Associate Director of Global Admissions and oversees the entire admissions process for all INSEAD degree programs on all campuses including the EMBA, which is going to be our focus today.

Teresa, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:52]Thank you very much, Linda, for having me here today.

My pleasure. Now can you give us just a start, an overview of INSEAD’s MBA program for those listeners who aren’t that familiar with it? [1:57]Yes, of course. Linda, our MBA program is a 10-month program that brings together around 100 nationalities per cohort. You can either start in January or in the August intake. It’s a very intense program. It’s shorter, but our participants make the most out of it and we commonly hear all of our alumni saying that it was the best year of their lives.

How do most students take advantage of that geographic diversity? If it was 10 months in Fontainebleau the whole time, that would already be intense. But if you have all these other options, how do they do it? [2:40]Indeed. So, our applicants have to make a decision of which will be their home campus. So what are the core courses? They will have to stay in their home campus. After that when the electives start, they can either change campuses, so if someone starts in Singapore, they can go to Fontainebleau and vice versa. And then we offer different partnerships, as you mentioned, with different schools in the US and China. So what happens is that they can go to that school while they’re, say, in that school, they are full students from the welcoming school and they spend their period there and then they come back to INSEAD-

So, where are the three campuses again? I know it’s Fontainebleau, Singapore, and the third one- [3:31] There are three campuses. Fontainebleau, Singapore, and Abu Dhabi. And we opened pre COVID San Francisco hub.

So it’s not considered a full campus yet, is it? [3:43]No, it’s a hub.

Where are the partnerships? [3:49]The partnerships are with Kellogg and Wharton in the US and with SIPS in China.

When you talk about your home campus, how much time are you required to spend there? What do most students do? Or is there a most? [3:56]So there’s not statistically something consistent. They have to stay for the core courses. So for the first period they have to stay where they decided to apply to.

Because we consider that part the most intense part of the program, because they have all of these classes and all these exams and it’s like the core and they have to stay focused where they are. And then switch campuses. So it’s super interesting because now for example, for instance, we welcomed those who started in Singapore and they arrived to Fontainebleau and it’s like they discover a new school. It’s like a new campus and they get to see other participants that have started here in the program and they have moved or those who came with them. So I find it very vibrant, the campus exchange moment, because the campus is full of suitcases and they’re coming in and out, and they see new faces and you see, “Oh, I’m connected with you when we were applicants and now I see you here,” and it’s a good sense of community.

In terms of the partnership schools, is the 10 months, is it divided into semesters or you’ve mentioned periods? How does that work? [5:07]There are periods of two months.

Five plus P Zero, which P Zero starts before they arrive to campus. So we’ve got P Zero and five periods.

Could you review the language requirements both at entry and graduation for INSEAD participants? That’s a very distinctive aspect of the program. [5:29]Yes. And you know that is one very near to my heart. So as you know, or maybe you don’t, INSEAD was founded by George Doriot, who was a French Harvard professor.

I didn’t know that. [5:49]The courses at the beginning, they were taught in those three languages. So German, English, and French, which were the languages in Europe.

We’ve been adapting to the different times. English has to be validated either by your native language or by other means of assessment. We need to ensure that every MBA or every student attending INSEAD is going to be able to follow the class and make the most out of the program. So English has to be validated. If it’s your native language, we will not question it, but then you will have to validate the second language for entry reasons.

So if English isn’t your native language, you have to validate it. So there are different criteria. Most common you need to have, your whole degree has to be taught in English and it has to be specified in your transcripts or through TOEFL iBT.

And if English is your native language and your second language is French, for example, or Spanish- [6:53]There are other tests. There are local, so there are national tests that we accept many of them, but there are many different experiences. So, we’ll look at that very closely for your second language, if English is your native language. And for instance, if you for example, have completed your bachelor’s in Spanish, it would be validated too.

The second language is like a C1, so it’s fluency that we require, and it’s an admissions requirement. Now for the third language, it is an exit language, so you need it to graduate. And we do not give the diploma if you have not validated your third panel. Knowing that the level that we require is much lower. It’s an A1. When I’m talking to candidates or prospects, I always, always encourage them to get that language policy cleared before they start because the program is very intense. And they prefer to invest their time in other things than learning the language. But for us it’s like in our DNA, and this open mindedness and being able to make the most of this super international exposure, we wanted to have these three languages with you.

Upon graduation.

So I mean, in lay terms, if you want to use that, would your entry level requirement be that the person obviously have speaking and comprehension and speaking ability and some writing ability or fluent writing ability? And the exit requirement, what would that be in terms of, again, just a very approximate? I realize there are stricter requirements. I’m just trying to make it a little bit easier to grasp. [8:32]No, of course. No, the second language is quite strict. You have to go through three levels and it’s a C1, which is fluent.

You have to be able to write. [9:08]You have to be able to write. Yes.

The exit language, which is A2, is more of a little bit of everything. So, not very complicated sentences and not that you don’t have to be able to write a proper essay, but you would be able to write an email.

Very helpful. Now on one hand, you emphasize the program is intense since and it’s only 10 months. And that is, could be… I mean, it definitely is a plus on one hand. There’s lower opportunity costs, it’s very efficient, but also some applicants might be worried, “What about my internship? I want to change career paths.” Nobody goes for an MBA to do the same thing that on the way out that they did on the way in. How do you address that? [9:25]Of course. So if you start in the August intake, it’s like the real 10 months because you graduate in July. However, if you start in the January intake, you finish in December and you do have time for an internship. When I’m speaking to candidates and to prospects, “Please make this a sound decision because whether you start in January and August should not only be based on your own timing, but also think about the internship.” So those who really want an internship will start in January.

Giving the option for those who fast track or know exactly where they want to go after versus those who really want to make the most and get an internship.

Do students or participants in INSEAD ever, who start, let’s say in the September intake, do they ever do the internship immediately following graduation? Is that ever done or not too common? [10:36]I would have to ask. I’m not that sure.

What don’t people know about INSEAD that you would like them to know? What’s a common misconception, perhaps? [10:50]Misconception. That shorter is lighter.

It’s not easier. And then I also hear the other side, some other students that of course that all the MBA community they after, they all have friends who went to different schools and then they come back and can tell you, “Well sometimes we went for two years.” They had some extra downtime. And actually it’s very interesting because that was the reason why the 10 month was created because our founder could see that sometimes the second year was a lighter pace. So he decided to put it all together and make it more intense.

Our campus is like 24 hours open and you can see how they are making all of it. And I was talking to some students before today, and they’re like, “The way that we click all together,” because you also have this pressure of time. It’s going to go so quickly. And we’re always telling them, “You have to make the most.” And you hear them like, “In one week. I had relationships with people that I thought I had known for years.”

INSEAD clearly lists its admissions criteria and your website says they are: ability to contribute, academic capacity, international motivation, and leadership potential. I’m sure you know this, you don’t need me to tell them to you. Where are you most likely to see those qualities and the different elements of the INSEAD application? [12:05]So it’s interesting because when I’m running, I run application workshops very often, always my first slide is with this, four pictures of these four initial criteria. And I always tell them, “Whatever you share with us, be sure that it falls in one of these buckets.”

That’s great advice. [12:48]Follow up questions like, “But what’s more important?” No. The INSEAD is holistic, and I’m always saying the same. I’m always sharing with people, “At INSEAD, we are human beings behind the admissions process.” There are people reading applications and people are like, they begin this conspiracy theories like, “Oh, so you put our CV in a scan and they give you like…” No, it’s nothing like that. It’s all about holistic and we try to see everything.

So we have a lot of essays, which we are aware. We know that we ask for many essays compared to other schools, but we really want to know. And it’s not only about us deciding if you are a good candidate for INSEAD or not, but if this is what you want, this is what you need to get wherever you want to go. So these four criteria, and that’s why we are so clear about it, they need to be covered in your application. It’s interesting because I think we’ll talk about the Kira video, but the pre-selection decision is purely based on what we’ve received in the application form. And we need to be sure that those four criteria are met.

I would assume that academic capacity you typically find in the transcript and the test score? [13:53]Yes.

International motivation would probably show up in my guess both in your resume and your activities as well as the essays. [14:02]International motivation is my favorite..

Because it’s who we are. So, international motivation is about us being sure that you’re not only going to be comfortable with such diversity in the class, but they’re going to embrace it and that they’re going to be… And you know how much you’re going to learn from this diversity, and you’re going to make the most out of it. So we need to be sure of this. And how do we see it? So the most common, and where most of our candidates really check those boxes is because they’ve gone through international experiences before themselves, either studying, either working abroad. And we do believe that this aspect in your life, it’s a big experience that makes you who you are, in a way. You’ve gone abroad, you’ve gone to a different culture, you had to adapt. You had to make some compromises. You learned so many things about it. And you had to melt in. You had to-

You had to adapt, I think it’s the key thing. [15:06]So, we get that from previous experiences. Also, in other cases, we have candidates that didn’t have the opportunity of living abroad or having this experience. So we also ask them to tell us how they’ve been in an international environment and how they felt about it. So, either you are working in a country where there are many people from different nationalities, either you work in a very international company and you have to… I was going to say deal, but you have to collaborate and you have to interact with other nationalities from other countries. So that’s what we are looking. So we do ask in the essays, “What has been your experience?” And we also ask a detailed list of your international experiences you’ve had in the past.

Some applicants, they might live in a diverse country, right? And many different cultures within their own country. It’s not homogenous. It’s a heterogeneous culture. [15:57]And nowadays most of the countries are like that. That’s why companies are always looking for people who are thriving in these kinds of societies.

And ability to contribute I would assume also will come really through throughout the application, really. [16:19]Ability to contribute and leadership potential come a lot also through the essays.

What is it? And the question is like, “What is it that you bring to the class?” We want to be sure when you raise the hand, you’re going to share experiences, share what you know, ask the correct questions. And where those questions and those contributions are going to come from your past experience.

Now you mentioned the video a second ago. What is the role of the video interview in the evaluation process? [16:26]We are very happy with the video. We love the video. And our message to candidates is always like, be yourself. So when I’m presenting this application workshop, I put a picture of Salvador Dali, who is one of our most well-known artists in Spain, because he was genuine, he was himself and he wasn’t shy to show who he was. And it’s about that. I’m always telling, we are not expecting you to be a BBC reporter unless you were a BBC reporter.

So don’t try to use those fancy words or things that you think that are, but be yourself. So what we’re looking here, the role is to see who you are in a way, and communication skills. The video will reassure us a lot also on the English level and the fluidity when people speak. I understand it’s stressful so we always recommend candidates, there’s like a practice part in the platform. I always say, “Practice, practice, practice.” There are four questions, and you’ve got 45 seconds to prepare and 60 to respond. I strongly recommend to candidates, that they use those 45 seconds to work on their structure. What is it that they want to say? And then be yourself. I always tell the story that we had a candidate who was a professional break dancer, and he just went on the floor and he danced. Amazing.

That’s great. Great. That’s a great story. [18:18]It’s a great story. And this is because sometimes, and I understand look, “Oh, instead I’m going to try to use fancy words.” No, because you’re going to lose the point of the video, which is what we want to hear YOU.

He must have had something before and after to convince you that he knew English and then he showed you who he was. [18:41]That’s why we’ve got four questions and they are not… I always say that we read applications to try to look into it and accept you, not to reject you.

And so that’s why it’s important that you are yourself because for the writing, we already have your essays.

We also had someone who was doing the Kira interview, and his cat came like this. And he was so impressive how the candidate just did like that with the cat and he continued speaking.

But everything, we were all home. So we all could have, we’re human beings and that’s an important message for me. We’re human beings looking for human beings.

I’ve been trying to tell that to candidates for years, that the admissions people are not automatons, they’re human beings. [20:08]No, no. But I also see it impress us. And they really want it, but like, but we want to accept you for the correct reasons and for who you are.

Just show who you are.

What’s the INSEAD interview like? [20:38]Okay, so INSEAD interviews are purely run by our alumni. So, staff is not involved in the interviews. We do the matching. So we decide. So the missions officers will match the candidate with two interviewers for our MBA program. They’re purely by geographic and/or industry. And then our alumni interviewers, they will run the interview in their own style knowing that we do give them some tips. We don’t tell them what we want, what they shouldn’t do, what they should not do. But then each one has their own style, as I mentioned.

So, some of our alumni interviewers prefer to organize the interview in a much more formal setup. So they will invite them to their meeting, to their offices. Others prefer a quiet cafe. But at the end of the day, who’s been selected means that those criteria are checked. And what we are looking for is the fit with the school and the program. And our interviewers are thinking, “Would I like to have this person in my class? Would I want to have this person in my group?”

So the interview is really just be about almost fit with the community, if you will? [21:42]Almost fit with the community. And also, is this person motivated? Does this person really want to do an MBA program? Why does this person want to come to INSEAD?

Do they have those four criteria? [21:59]The four criteria are, but it’s also about the soft skill motivation. Is the motivation there? So sometimes we’ll hear this person was not passionate about INSEAD. So it’s more about passion, I would say.

And because our interviewers, they are volunteers and I always tell candidates, “They’re volunteers. They’re doing this in a way of giving back to us, to the school.” And because someone was there for the interview, they want to be there for someone else’s interview.

What’s the most common mistake you see in the application? And it can be plural too. [22:02]I would say lack of motivation. We know that our application process is long and it takes time. And we’re always telling, our recruitment team is always like, “Focus on the essays, focus on what you’re writing. You need to prepare.” So a sloppy application is a no-go. Essays that aren’t well structured, essays that are not well prepared, or things that are mismatching, lack of consistency, that would be a killer.

And does that translate to you as lack of motivation? [23:13]Yes.

And this is a big investment and it’s not only about money, but it’s also who you’re going to be. This INSEAD will follow you for the rest of your life. We tend to say that you’ll never travel alone, for instance. So it’s something that you really, we want to be sure that you are really going because you’re really going to enjoy and you’re looking for. I always say that we are looking for motivated candidates, engaged students, proud alumni.

And they know. Candidates know that pre-selection is purely based on your application form. So it’s like your business card.

Does INSEAD have any preference between the GMAT and the GRE? Any plans to go test optional? [24:05]Test optional is a no-go.

We are finding GRE and GMAT as good. Both as good predictors.

Because there was a time when I think there was a preference for the GMAT, but at this point…[24:29]At this point, no. And we see the numbers of GRE takers increasing.

And we understand that there are two different tests and they test differently. So, candidates should do some research before they prepare and they should sit the tests that fits better themselves, where they’re going to perform better.

But there’s no different expectations in terms of percentile? You should be 85% on the GRE and 75% on the GMAT? That’s no more, no longer the case? [24:50]We’re moving away from giving a strict score. It’s very difficult to get this into the candidates’ brains.

Because you hear so many, I’m sure you do too, right? Like, “Oh, I only have a 720. Am I going to get in?”

And now my latest sentence is like, “A GMAT score doesn’t define who you are.

But sometimes they’re so terrified. I met someone who told me, “I’m not going to apply for scholarships because I’ve got a 660 and I’m never going to get a scholarship with a 660.” I’m like, “And what’s the connection? Can you please share with me?”

It’s not looked at in a vacuum. [25:43]Yeah. We’re looking for… It’s not only what score you took on that day, but also what you’ve done before. Where are you working? So the academic capacity, we are broadening what we’re looking at. So your academic past background, the past background is also very important.

Linda, I had an event on Saturday, and I said, “GMAT score doesn’t define you.” I even said that I was going to get it at a tool here, like GMAT score does define who you’re. So I will show them like, this is how true this is. And afterwards we’re having a discussion, “I have this score. Am I going to get in?”

You weren’t hearing what I was saying. We just need to be sure because it wouldn’t be fair to the candidate, but they’re not going to be academically following the program and that’s what we need to be sure about. And it’s one of those four admissions criteria.

I’m glad you’re emphasizing that. Thank you. [26:57]In my application workshops, I repeat this sentence three times. Next time I’m going to ask everyone to stand up and we’re going to repeat it all together.

So let’s say I’m in the midst of preparing an application for the January 2024 intake, and there’s a deadline April 18th and June 27th, and this interview should air before the deadline. What advice would you give someone in the midst of preparing an application for an upcoming deadline? Let’s say if it’s April 18th, it’s really close or the June 27th deadline. [27:15]In the midst. I always say that applicants should aim an application deadline not because they think of those myths that they have around the application. Because then you’ve got also those myths like, if I reply to round X, I’m going to have higher chances of being accepted than in round Y. That’s not true. Apply when you, you’re ready. When you’re ready. You need to have your score. You’ve taken your GMAT or your GRE. Your applications should be towards finalizing, like proofreading more than beginning to write because it does take a lot of time.

And once you have this, the sooner the better but only because about them, because onboarding takes time. Some places you need to get visas, they have to remove transatlantic, they have to sort their lives before they come to Fontaine or Singapore. So the onboarding is better on them. And we always tell, “Be kind to yourself, so don’t try to rush it.”

But you need onboarding time.

I also just realized this show will actually air after the April 18th deadline. So we’re really talking about the June 27th deadline in terms of the January 2024 intake. And obviously there’s another deadline for the September 25, 2025 deadline. [28:47]My advice too when I’m speaking to candidates that are thinking of applying, now what I say like, take a white piece of paper and you make a circle and you write INSEAD MBA. And with the four admissions criteria in your there, you begin to write what do you want INSEAD to know about you? And you write. You write. When you fill that paper and you go and with some friends and you come back and you continue writing, and the next day you wake up and you continue writing in your brainstorm. And then you look at the application form and you look at your essays. And in each line that you wrote in that brainstorm, you put which essay you’re going to write this. And I always tell them, “If there are things that don’t fit in any other essays, you highlight it in yellow.” I like office supplies a lot, so.

And then you write. Then you get it proofread, then you read it again. Then with those that weren’t highlighted in yellow, that’s your optional essay.

That’s great advice. [29:48]But of course, because sometimes they go into it, “Okay, I’m going to reply to this essay.” Yes, but you have to read because somehow they’re connected and it depends how you want to tell your story. And it’s important. INSEAD will love your story and we want to understand who you are. I always say that when I’m looking on a file, I create someone and I add layers, who you are, where do you live, your previous experience, what do you want to do next? And that’s a good way to just don’t bias your application responses with what you thing we want to hear, but what you really want to tell us and what you want INSEAD to know about you.

I have something, a very similar system, but where I say, “Write down everything you want an individual school to know about you, look at their criteria, what do you want them to know about you? And then write down their questions.” Very, very… So I say do use a spreadsheet, but that’s basically because they all love spreadsheets, but- [30:02]I’m taking those out of their comfort zone already.

And I’ll also say some use a mind map, which is more similar, but digital. But the idea is first, figure out what you want them to know, and then figure out where you can take those things that you want them to know in the application based on the questions. And the good news is that INSEAD does ask more questions than normal, so there’s more opportunity for them to tell their story. Yes, it takes more effort, takes more work, but there is that opportunity there. [31:05]But we also see that once they’re accepted, they appreciate the time that they’ve spent thinking about… Because for us, it has to be a sound decision. You just don’t apply. And just like, “Okay, I want this school, because of these reasons.” Oh, another cater is when someone has copied and pasted their essays and you can see because they left the other schools.

That’s a killer. No, that is a… Yeah, it definitely shows a lack of motivation and attention to detail. [31:29]It’s super sloppy. Right?

Let’s say instead of applying for this upcoming cycle or a close deadline, I’m planning ahead. Okay. I want to apply in fall 2023 for the September 2024 intake. Right. So we’re really… I know the dates are, the year’s dates are nuts. Any planned changes for the application? Are you at all concerned about Chat GPT? [32:03]No.

Planning ahead. No major changes are seen for… We would never do a major change from one application to another.

So if someone wants to start ahead, download the application, look at the essays. If we were to change, maybe we would change one or we would do a minor change, but not nothing yet very major.

What would you advise the applicant planning ahead to be doing now? [32:40]Doing research. When they come to our campus, I’m so grateful. This is what you have to do. Go visit the schools. Do you feel you belong there? Talk to students. I think that they should spend much more time looking at the school. We are always welcoming to come and see it. We organize, for example, in-house events. Every two months we get to organize a master class. We have a chat where I tell them about all of these things. And we discuss like today an application, how to prepare your application.

We have also someone from my colleagues from careers sharing the career outcomes and what’s the career journey. We’ve got also people from student life sharing how is a day in an MBA program? And last but not least, we have students coming, in and it’s an open question and answer. It’s like an open mic. They just raise a question, and they ask and they reply. So for example, I think that the best thing they could do, organize to come and join us one of those. Come and meet us.

Where can listeners and potential applicants, or potential participants,learn more about INSEAD’s MBA program? [34:05]The best recommendation would be our INSEAD.edu, our website where you can find everything and reach out to us. We’re always very happy to help you.

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• INSEAD MBA Admissions
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The post Get Into INSEAD, the Business School for the World [Episode 520] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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Thanks for joining me for the 520th episode of Admissions Straight Talk.

I am taking a week off for family time. As a result, I decided to air an encore of our most popular podcast so far in 2023. To my surprise it was the solo show I did in January on preparing to apply this year.

While I was mildly surprised that the solo show was the most popular. On second thought I understood why: People are gearing up to apply in the 2023-24 cycle so the topic is timely. One of the points I make in this podcast is the sooner you start, the better your application will be. And that’s true regardless of the degree you are applying for.

I assume that many of you also took a spring break be it for a day or two or a whole week or more. I hope you spend it with loved ones, as I am doing so during my week off. I hope you had a wonderful time during your break. Thanks for listening to Admissions Straight Talk and specifically What Does 2022 Mean for Applicants in 2023.

For the complete show notes, check out the original blog post.

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• Accepted’s MBA Calculator Quiz
• The Law School Admissions Calculator
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• Encore: How to Get Into an MD/PhD Program

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The post Encore: What Does 2022 Mean for Applicants in 2023 [Episode 505] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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In this episode the Executive Director of Admissions and Financial Aid at Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth discusses what the Adcom expects from applicants. [SHOW SUMMARY]Would you like to attend an MBA program with a tight-knit community and a strong foundation in general management, but with enough breadth that you can still do a deep dive into a specific area of interest? Dartmouth Tuck may be the perfect program for you, and today’s guest is its Executive Director of Admissions and Financial Aid.

An interview with Lawrence Mur’ray, the leader of Tuck’s admissions and financial aid teams. [SHOW NOTES]Welcome to the 514th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Are you ready to apply to your Dream MBA programs? Are you competitive at your target schools? Accepted’s MBA Admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check. Complete the quiz, and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your qualifications. Plus it’s all free.

It gives me great pleasure to have for the first time on Admissions Straight Talk, Lawrence Mur’ray, Executive Director of Admissions and Financial Aid at Dartmouth University’s Tuck School of Business. Lawrence has been in higher ed since he graduated high school. He earned his BA and MPA at the University of Arizona and began his career in admissions there. He then became Assistant Director of MBA Admissions at Indiana University’s Kelley School of Business, followed by a stint at UNC Kenan-Flagler where he rose to become the Director of the Undergraduate Business Program. He then served as Senior Assistant Dean of Graduate Business Programs at Fordham’s Gabelli School of Business for over six years and joined Dartmouth Tuck as Executive Director of Admissions and Financial Aid just this past August. 7;’/

Lawrence, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:00]Thank you, thank you, thank you. I’m excited to be here.

And I’m delighted to speak with you. Now let’s start with a basic question, which is typically how I open these interviews. Can you provide an overview of Dartmouth Tuck’s MBA program? [2:06]Yeah. Great. Thank you. Again, I’m excited to be here. Thank you for having me. The Tuck School of Business is at Dartmouth College here in Hanover, New Hampshire. We are an extremely rigorous, two-year, Ivy League MBA, nestled here in the Upper Valley, which provides an opportunity to reflect and focus while you’re here. It’s an opportunity for students to really connect with one another. Again, it’s a rigorous academic program. I think sometimes people think that coming to a small school means there’s limited opportunities, but there are boundless opportunities here with a culture of collaboration and community. You can do almost anything you want to do in terms of your career aspirations. We have a culture of co-investment, so we see the students as partners along all dimensions of their journey, whether it’s the admissions journey, whether it’s the student services journey, or the career journey, and so that co-investment serves as the cornerstone of the Tuck ethos.

And in terms of the opportunities, some of the opportunities that struck me in preparing for the call, one of them was the Global Insight Expeditions. Could you touch on that? [3:20]Yeah. Our Global Insight Expeditions are a great opportunity for the students to focus on a particular area of the country with a particular faculty member. They’re typically two to three weeks, and it’s an opportunity for them to learn about a particular element of a faculty member’s research, which is anchored in a particular area. It’s also an opportunity for them to learn and understand the culture of doing business wherever they’re going. So for this winter, we sent students to Denmark, we sent students to Israel, and we sent students to Vietnam. So it’s an opportunity to build their network and also it’s an opportunity for them to engage in global teams.

And when they graduate from business school, they will be placed on the global map and working with global teams, it’s an opportunity for them to practice that on their GIXs. It’s a credit bearing class, so the students get credit for that, but it’s a wonderful opportunity. We had four GIXs in the winter, and I’m still getting used to being on a quarter system, so forgive me. We have four GIXs that went off in the winter, which for us is sort of December and January, and then we have four that are going out in the spring.

And again, you mentioned one point in the country, but is it really global? [4:39]Absolutely. We do have a couple of domestic GIXs, but the majority of them are global. And actually one unique element during the pandemic when we weren’t able to travel, one of our faculty members actually developed a virtual GIX working, he’s from India, and so was working with some NGOs in India. And the students on both ends were using AR and VR to help execute a series of projects through that GIX, and we actually will continue to do a virtual GIX as we move forward.

Now you mentioned again, the breadth of opportunities at Tuck, and of course there are concerns sometimes that students or potential students voice about going to New Hampshire, and is that going to limit them? So where are Tuckies finding jobs both in terms of geography and industry or function? [5:16]Yeah, so that’s a question that pops up a lot. I’d like to first point to our employment statistics, and I think that the perception of it being a disadvantage is aligned with the career opportunities. But if you look at our employment statistics, the numbers speak for themselves. About 98% of our students have a full-time offer at the time, usually it’s three months post-graduation. We are well represented in consulting and finance. And then after that, it’s a wide range: product management, marketing, operations, logistics, technology. About 11% of our students go into technology. That’s a growing area for us. Healthcare is a growing area for us. We have a growing area of intersection points, so we’ve got financial analytics, we’ve got healthcare analytics, we’ve got marketing analytics. So there are a lot of intersection roles that students are taking and industries that they’re going into.

Tuck is famous for the amazing degree of alumni loyalty as expressed in alumni financial support. I know this past year in 2022 you had a $52 million donation from an anonymous donor. That’s obviously a standout, but I know that the percentage of alumni participation is extremely high. I think the highest of any MBA program by far. [6:34]It is. I don’t know the exact number. It’s north of 70%.

But I don’t know the exact number. One of the things, and again, I’ve been here for six months, but one of the things that is clear, there’s one attribute that all Tuck students share. And again, I’ve been in this business for quite some time now. I’ve worked at several different schools, and it’s rare to be in a situation where all of the students experience one exact same situation. And that is for Tuck, they all had to move here and they all had to pick up their lives from wherever they were and had to move to Hanover, New Hampshire. And that single shared experience helps form the foundation of that community and that collaboration, that forms that comradery with students when they’re in the program and then that alumni loyalty when they’re out of the program.

It is spectacular to see how these students come together knowing that they’re all in the same boat. They all have to figure out their living situation. They’ve all got to figure out how do I now navigate the next two years where I’m not working and I’ve got to refocus on school, I’ve got to refocus on an internship search, I’ve got to refocus on a job search. And they get to do that all together. And again, that’s a little different from other schools. And I’ve worked at business schools that are top ranked, that are in different geographies where there’s definitely a benefit to being in New York City. That’s my last experience. But New York also presents, as much as there are opportunities in New York, sometimes that can be a little bit of a distraction. So there are lots of things to do, and I have to be honest, I’m always surprised that how little students take advantage of the things that New York City, for my former job, but it’s still a distraction.

The other part of it is in New York, a lot of time is spent commuting to school, and so you spend a lot of time, you’re either running late and starting late, or you’re leaving early trying to catch the train. So on those tail ends, that doesn’t happen here. And students, really more than half of our students live on campus in their first year, so they’re together a lot of the time. And then in the second year they live off campus. But our location is small, our school is small. Community matters. Students will come in and they will know their classmates, they will know their faculty members. When we talk about careers, one of the things I continue to be amazed with is how many alums come back to Tuck all the time.

I mean, you are walking in the hallways. It’s spring break now, so nobody’s here, but any other time, I’m being introduced to alums in the hallways or the alums are here working with the student club or organization or the alums are here serving as alumni mentors with the career services team. It’s a lot of engagement and activity, and that also means something. You have to be very intentional to come to Hanover, and you can get here by plane, trains, automobile or drive, but it’s intentional to come here. And the fact that so many alums come back and play a part in the development of the class of students below them, I think that says a lot about the culture and the community and again, that ethos of co-investment.

That was a very fascinating comment you made that everybody at Tuck has moved. They take initiative, it requires initiative. [10:28]Absolutely.

What don’t people know about Tuck that you would like them to know? Or is there a common misconception that you’d like to dispel other than what you already talked about? [10:46]Yeah, I think when you, again, I’ve been in this business for a while now, and I think that sometimes people think that regardless of the location, there are disadvantages to a small program. They think the bigger the program, the better. There are lots of benefits to some of our peers that are significantly bigger, but it doesn’t necessarily mean a better experience. One of the things that I like to tell students or that we like to tell students, consulting is a very popular industry and function for MBAs, no matter what school you’re going to. That really serves as consulting and finance really are the anchors of career services at most notable MBA programs. So when a company like Deloitte comes, and so Deloitte came for our consulting symposium in the fallthey brought a number of people with them.

Again, you have to be very intentional to come here, so you can’t come for a morning or an afternoon or just a single day. Most of the time, our employer partners come for multiple days. So wherein students in larger programs, maybe in bigger cities, they’re getting the career services partners, the alumni that are representing companies that hire students to come in for a couple of hours. When Deloitte came to visit us, they were here for three days, and so they hosted coffee chats, they were guest speakers in classes, they hosted dinners, they had some social events. So it was an opportunity for students to really engage with partners from Deloitte in a fully immersive experience that I don’t think is easily replicated at other schools.

Tuck posts its criteria, and the transparency is wonderful. It posts its criteria for admissions, and it boils down to four qualities: smart, accomplished, aware, and encouraging, which I guess kind of goes along with the co-investment theme that you’ve mentioned a couple of times. Where do you typically find each of those qualities in the application? [12:35]Yeah, we take a lot of pride, and this is one of the reasons why I chose to come to Tuck: the spirit of transparency. There aren’t very many schools that are transparent in sort of telling the prospective students exactly what it is that we’re looking for. We’re not trying to hide anything.

So when we think about smart, smart is a broad category, it’s not just what I think people think that it is, which is the numbers. The numbers are there. We are definitely, in the smart category, are looking at some of those quantitative metrics like your standardized test score, your academic background. In the academic background we’re looking for your overall GPA, but also the types of courses that you took, your grade trends and how that aligns with what you’re doing now.

We’re also looking at your professional work experience and what you’re doing. Was there a bridge between what you did at university and how you’re deploying that in your job? What exactly are you doing in your job? The scope and depth of your work experience, sort of the quantitative rigor of your work. Not everybody has that, but we are looking for that sort of analytic and technology element of work as an element of smart.

We are also looking at certification. So we have a lot of students that are coming with CPAs, with CFAs and other additional professional certifications that help indicate their level of expertise in a particular area. So those are some of the dimensions that we are looking at and that we are finding when we’re looking for smart.

When we’re looking for accomplished. Again, academics play a part in that. And so again, your academic record, your ending GPA, whatever the GPA was in your major, we’re looking at that. We’re looking again at the scope and depth of your professional work experience and growth and how you’ve moved forward and progressed in your career. So those are elements of accomplished that we can find both sort of in your academic transcript as well as on your resume and in our conversation with you during an interview.

When we are looking at aware, aware is pretty broad and it’s broad by design. Again, I mentioned this culture of co-investment a few times. And so when you have the culture of co-investment, everyone is working together towards the common good, and that means that people have to respect one another, that means people have to learn how to be vulnerable, that means people have to learn how to look inward to understand what some of those vulnerabilities are and what their strengths are, and how do they balance those or establish a harmony as they’re sort of moving forward with the teams that they work in in business school, with the communities or the organizations that they’re going to work for in their internship or full-time. And then the communities that they serve as sort of outside of work. So aware is an element that we find in your essays. We find that in the interview. We find that also in well-written letters of recommendation, and we find that to some extent in the resume as well.

And then encouraging, and again, this aligns a little with our culture of co-investment thinking through mostly around the interview, how do you deal with ambiguity? How do you deal with leading teams and managing teams and managing projects? How do you manage or navigate giving and receiving feedback? You may not be someone, there are a lot of people who come to business school and they haven’t had an opportunity to be the formal leader, but they’ve had an opportunity to lead. And sometimes that’s in work and sometimes that’s outside of work. But that element of encouraging, we can lift from, again, the essays, we can lift that from the interviews. And again, we can lift that from well-written and very thoughtful letters of recommendation.

Can you go into a little bit of what you mean by a culture of co-investment? How does that manifest itself? [16:52]Yeah, absolutely. So that manifests itself in we see the students as partners in everything that we do. So if you like for example, our Women in Business Conference, that is a big conference. We bring in probably 150, 160 prospective students to campus. It’s full of guest speakers, panels. It’s a 3-day event. The students put that on all by themselves with some guidance from the faculty and staff. But really the leaders of this are the students.

We have a new mental health and awareness initiative, although again, I’ve been in this business for a long time. That’s always been a thing. It’s only recently become a notable thing that people are talking about. But for those of us that have been around for a while, this has always been an issue that we’ve had to deal with. But our students played a big part in helping us come up with our approach for our mental health and awareness initiative. Part of that was serving on a university-wide committee to bring in a telehealth service, and then they helped design our peer mental health advisors, that entire initiative, the students helped co-design it. And so they literally went from start to finish and we just rolled it out. We just finished the elements of the design just before the winter break, and we will roll it out in earnest here after spring break.

And so there’ll be a number of different peer counselors that are deployed throughout the first year class and the second year class to help us really keep our ear to the pulse of what’s going on with the students, and to serve as a sounding board for students who might be struggling, and to serve as a first alert for when we might need to escalate things to a higher level to ensure that someone is getting the help and the resources that they need.

So by co-investment, kind of like the school is investing in the students and you’re hoping the students will be active participants, initiators, whatever in the campus community as well. [18:54]Absolutely.

And that initiative that they show by coming to Tuck will continue while they’re there? [19:05]Absolutely. And that’s born out, again, in our annual giving rate as well as our level of engagement, not just the giving, but level of engagement just across the board with the business. So again, I think in any given week there’s probably 15 or 20 alums that are on campus doing something.

What accommodations has Tuck made in light of the recent layoffs that have caused many business schools to do different things. What’s Tuck done? [19:31]So we announced back in January that we were deploying a GMAT GRE test waiver option for those who were negatively impacted by those economic and employment disruptions. Of course, this started notably in the tech sector, but very quickly went beyond the tech sector. So our initiative was for our round three applications, and it was industry agnostic. But it was an opportunity for folks to submit an application to be considered for a GMAT GRE test waiver. And we were looking at, number one is you had to be unemployed.

And then if you submitted the application, you were unemployed and you met a few other top line criteria, then we would look at your academic background. So we were looking for an undergraduate academic background that was steeped in technology, quant, analytics. Then we were looking at advanced coursework, graduate coursework or maybe certificate programs or something, again, that was steeped in technology, quant or analytics.

And then the third category that we were looking at was your professional work experience and whether that professional work experience was steeped in sort of quantitative work data or analytics.

So we had those three buckets. The more of those buckets you could check off, the more likely you were to be granted the waiver. The fewer of those buckets you check off, the less likely you were to be granted the waiver. And again, we did it for our round three. The deadline for that was actually March 1st. So that gave us plenty of time to do all the evaluation of the applications for the fee waivers. And then for those folks who weren’t granted, not a fee waiver, but a test waiver, it gave them the opportunity to study and sit for the exams.

Do you think the test waiver policy will be extended to next year? [21:32]We’ll have to see. We’ll wait and see what it looks like at the end of this year. We’ve still got quite a ways to go. We’re getting ready to release round two on Thursday, and then we are still knee-deep in round three, so we’ll have to see what this looks like at the end.

What advice would you have at this point in time for somebody thinking of applying in the 2023- 2024 cycle? [21:54]A lot of people think that the third round or the later rounds are bad rounds and that they put you at a competitive disadvantage. I’ve never really fully understood that, but I do understand that there are some of our peers that the bulk of their enrolled classes are coming from early deadlines, but that’s only a handful of schools. I think most of us do have to rely on the full breadth of the admission cycle. So that’s all rounds of the admission cycles. I think schools will be hard-pressed to turn away strong candidates that come in in later rounds. Again, there are some exceptions, there are some of our peers where with the bulk of their enrolled classes are built off of round one and round two. And some of those peers, they don’t even have really a third round, they only have two admission cycles. But I think schools will be hard-pressed to turn away any strong candidates that come in later in the admission cycle.

Obviously when we’re talking about seats in classes and the dollars that are left, that really is the same calculus that you have to think about whether you are applying round one versus round two, and round two versus round three. As more students come in and submit their enrollment deposits and commit, schools are looking at a finite number of seats available in a class. And so that’s just something that you have to take into consideration. I will say that people shouldn’t rush. So I know a lot of people right now because I think Microsoft or one of the tech companies just said that they were … No, Meta.

Meta slashed 10,000 more jobs. And so I would definitely caution folks about rushing into the application process. The reason why most schools have multiple deadlines is to provide students with the opportunity to present their application when it’s at the strongest that it can possibly be. For some folks, that may mean multiple attempts at a standardized test. For some, the self-reflection or the self discernment piece and finding which schools I’m going to apply to takes a little bit longer. So they may apply in round two, round three or round four. I know there are several schools now, so several of our peers have extended their third deadlines and added a fourth deadline.

I was just going to ask if you have any plans to do that. [24:31]We don’t have any plans to do that. Students just need to be thoughtful about that. So whether you apply now or wait and apply early, I think that depends on how you assess your readiness and competitiveness in the application process.

What can those invited to interview at Tuck expect if they’re lucky enough to be invited? [24:50]Yeah, I think you can expect a conversation, not low intensity, but low risk I should say. I think a lot of people get wound up and they think that we’re trying to trick you with, and this is for any school, that the schools are trying to trick you with trick questions in the interview, and that’s going to be a grilling. This is not. We want to have a very civil conversation just to learn a little bit more about who you are, what makes you tick, why you’re interested in the Tuck School, why you’re interested in pursuing an MBA, and how all of that fits into your short-term, mid-term, and long-term goals and objectives. And along the way, we’ll ask you some questions about how you handle stress and adversity, how you communicate, how you give and receive feedback, and just some of the other elements of you that make you you, that you might want to share with us.

Tuck last year had three essay questions. Why are you pursuing an MBA? And why Tuck? Tell us who you are. I’m summarizing here. And describe a meaningful experience in which you exemplified one or more of these attributes. Attributes being encouraging, collaborative, and empathetic. Do you anticipate any changes to those questions? [25:50]That’s a good question, and we will start thinking about what the next application looks like here in late April or early May. So we’ll see. I think that the industry that we’re in is that a little bit of a crossroads when it comes to MBA applications, and we just talked about ChatGPT and its impact on a lot of different things. So we are going to be very thoughtful and deliberative in thinking through what the application for the next cycle looks like.

Also this’ll be, I guess, your first full application cycle at Tuck. [26:45]Absolutely.

Have you played at all with ChatGPT? [26:52]I have. I’ve played a lot with it. The output is only as good as the input.

What question would you have liked me to ask that I haven’t asked? What would you like to answer? [27:13]What would I like to answer? I think, again, sort of going back to the advantages of being in a small New Hampshire town, you get to know your classmates. One of the other elements that I’ve always thought very highly of Tuck about, and again, I’ve been in this business for a long time and I’ve known the folks here at Tuck for a long time. Back when I worked at Indiana University, I worked with a lot of folks from Tuck, and I’ve always been impressed with just the level of engagement across the board. And I think that part of that is when you come here, and again, we talked about everyone has to pick up and move but this is a place where you can’t hide. And that’s not a bad thing.

It’s getting to know your classmates and getting to know the faculty and getting to know the staff. And with that high engagement of alumni, the thing that has impressed me, one of the things that has impressed me the most is I went to South America and met up with about 15 alums and the age range was about 10 years, class years. And you would’ve never known that they were in different class years. They were just talking as if they all sat in their finance class together or their GIX to Denmark together, and that was amazing. Again, a 10-year gap. And then that was replicated. I went to London, had a chance to meet with some of the folks and again, a wide range of years, class years, but they all got along as though they were sitting in the class together just yesterday. So that level of camaraderie I think is something that adds to that element of fit and in how you can thrive in your time during an MBA.

Might also be something to show that you want to be a part of and that you’ve provided comradery and participation and co-investment in the past if you are applying successfully at Tuck. [29:18]Yeah.

All right, Lawrence, I want to thank you so much for joining me today. I’ve really enjoyed learning about Tuck’s MBA program and admissions process and community. Is there a URL you’d like to share? [29:29]Sure, tuck.dartmouth.edu will take you right to our main landing page.

Relevant Links:

• Tuck360 blog
• Dartmouth Tuck MBA Admissions
• MBA Admissions Quiz
• Dartmouth Tuck MBA Essay Tips and Deadlines [2022 – 2023], Class Profile

Related shows:

• What Does 2022 Mean for Applicants in 2023 [Episode 505]
• The Questions You SHOULD Be Asking – ANSWERED! [Episode 500]
• How to Get Accepted to MIT Sloan MBA [Episode 498]
• How to Get Accepted to Cornell Johnson MBA [Episode 488]
• Approaching Your MBA Application [Episode 487]

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Tune in to hear all that University of California Irvine program in public health has to offer and learn about the future UCI School of Population and Public Health. [Show Summary]The Master in Public Health (MPH) degree experienced enormous growth since the COVID lockdown. One of the leading and largest programs in public health is offered by UC Irvine, and we are talking to the director of that program today, Dr. Bernadette Boden-Albala.

Interview with Dr. Bernadette Boden-Albala, Director of the UCI Program in Public Health and Founding Dean of the future UCI School of Population and Public Health. [Show Notes]Welcome to the 517th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. The challenge at the heart of graduate admissions is showing that you both fit in at your target schools and are a standout in the applicant pool. Accepted’s free download,Fitting In and Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions, will show you how to do both. Master this paradox, and you are well on your way to acceptance.

Our guest today is Dr. Bernadette Boden-Albala, director of the UCI Program in Public Health and founding Dean of the future UCI School of Population and Public Health. Dean Boden-Albala, prior to moving to UC Irvine in 2019, served as social epidemiologist at Columbia University and then as professor and senior Associate Dean at NYU. She earned her MPH and her doctorate in Public Health from Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health.

Dr. Boden-Albala, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:45]Thank you so much. I’m really excited to be here.

Can you give us, just for starters, an overview of UCI’s MPH program focusing on its more distinctive elements? [1:52]Sure. So first of all, our MPH degree program was established, oh, almost over a decade ago. 2010. It was accredited, which is critically important, by the Council on Education for Public Health, CEPH, in 2012. And it was really the first professional degree of the UCI public health program, and a big component, again, of this envisioned UCI School of Population and Public Health. And I should say that even before we had an MPH program, we have a very large, one of the largest and most diverse undergraduate programs in public health. And so even though the program started about 12 years ago, we have a wonderful public health faculty that has really been doing public health for a longer time than that. And really the aim of the program is to create public health practitioners who really work independently and collaboratively to develop and implement strategies that are really going to reduce the burden of disease and disability globally, locally and globally.

And I would say a real distinction is our focus on community and partnering with community. And I think we have some of the best, if not the best, community-based or community-engaged researchers. And Orange County, which is one of the largest counties in the country, is a very diverse county, and a lot of our faculty are working with all different populations in the county. And so that really is, I think, a huge distinctive feature. And when you’re working in partnership with communities, automatically your focus is going to be on health equity. And we were doing health equity long before a lot of people were even talking or thinking about health equity. And so that is the foundation – community engaged work, health equity – of what we do. And then you add on top of that incredible work in public health science. And our MPH students and our MPH used to be a small boutique program, 15, 20 students, and it’s now grown to over 100 students and growing.

And we’ve been adding faculty since I got here in 2019. Our faculty has tripled. And again, we’re bringing in all of these folks whose work really threads this health equity, community work, a lot of work on environmental health disparities. When a lot of other programs in the country about 15 years ago really sort of closed down or took environmental health programs and moved them into other areas, we built ours up and now we have this very strong environmental and occupational health department, and that also includes a center that’s state funded on occupational health. We also have a very strong epidemiology and biostats department with a big focus on cancer control and screening, especially in diverse communities. Our oldest department is population health disease prevention, and that really is focused on both global health and also biological determinants of health.

What would be a biological determinant of health? [5:28]Oh, so really focused on things like biomarkers and understanding biomarkers.

Like the breast cancer gene, for example? [5:37]Breast cancer gene. Genes for depression, things about biomarkers and stress, measuring cortisol through hair, and looking at population level stress which is coming from things like social determinants of health. And our last department is health society and behavior. And as you can imagine, they’re really thinking about all of the social determinants of health and then thinking about health policy and really how to move the evidence base forward.

I saw that there are four main paths through the MPH program. I realize that you have a very large undergraduate program, but Admissions Straight Talk is focused on graduates, so we’re going to focus on the MPH if that’s okay with you? [6:14]Yes, yes, absolutely.

What are the four main paths through the MPH program? [6:29]So epidemiology and biostatistics is a key path, and that’s really training. So for biostats, you’re thinking about the development and application of statistical reasoning and methods. And a big area in biostats now is that we actually have a very large program that’s focused on health informatics and really using large data sets like electronic health records data sets. We hear this term precision medicine, precision health, right? How to individualize health to that patient or to that individual. But I talk about precision public health, and it’s really understanding that populations are different, that they experience diseases differently, and to use these large data sets to help us understand what that would look like. And that’s, of course, then this area through which people can go, biostats or epidemiology, really understanding the etiology of disease. And one area within that is social epidemiology, which is what are the social influences that impact disease and the way in which populations experience that disease?

So that’s sort of one area. We talked a little bit before about environmental health, and this really provides students the opportunity to examine how the health of the population is affected by biological, chemical and physical factors in the environment. And there’s a lot of work now. We talk a lot about climate change and health. We were just talking, Linda, about the rain in California and about climate change. And we see this all over the country, all over the world, and our folks in environmental health are working on problems like, what happens if you are exposed to intense heat for weeks at a time, and what does that do to you? Does it make it vulnerable to other diseases, et cetera? How does that influence your health? And then the other thing with environmental health is, different populations are in very different environments. And so we talk about experiencing diseases differently.

These environments then may lead to a higher incidence of certain diseases in certain populations because of exactly where those populations live. And so, environmental health, clean air, clean water, all of those things, that’s another pathway. And then sociocultural diversity and health. And this has really become big and it’s so important. It’s the work that I’ve been doing for two decades is really understanding the social impact. And it’s not just about access. It’s about things like structural racism and how to identify structural racism. Structural racism in health, and how to identify those factors and how to make changes so that we have health equity so that everybody really gets the resources they need to be successful in optimal health and wellbeing.

Besides the MPH, which I said we were going to focus on, what are the other graduate degrees offered at UCI in public health? [9:51]Yes. So we have a master’s of science in environmental health science. So that kind of work is around things like toxicology. So there’s a whole science around environmental health. And so, those students are really focused on that. That’s very lab based. And we also have a master’s of science in epidemiology, and we’re planning on hopefully increasing our masters of science programs as well down the road probably in the next year or two to include a masters of science, for example, in biostatistics where those folks would, now, if you get an MPH in biostatistics, which is a degree we give out, same kind of thing, but how to apply this kind of statistical reasoning to go out into a lot of industries, including, for example, the pharmaceutical industry.

And so, while we’ve got a real focus on community and populations and government as places where those with the MPH can then work after, there are also private industries that are really very excited and want to have students trained, again, in a master of science or a MPH. And then I know we’re not talking about the undergraduate at all, but we also have a number of doctoral degrees also.

We have a PhD in public health, which is in disease prevention, one of them. And the other is in global health. So there’s a PhD in public health with two emphasis areas. A PhD in epidemiology and also a PhD in environmental health sciences. And that’s focused on toxicology and exposure sciences is one area. And then, environmental epidemiology. And remember we talked a lot about thinking through environmental health disparities, how to identify that, how to think about, so one of our faculty just presented some great data around pregnancy and green space, and that’s what an environmental epidemiologist would do.

Is it important to have trees? Is it important to have flowers, right? Are there differences, grass or trees? And it turns out there might be some differences. So that’s what you do in environmental epidemiology. And so those are other things that we are offering. We also have a certificate now in health informatics. We are starting a center for bioethics, a really important area. So we’re just growing.

And I would say that I think the most important thing to take away is that there are many paths to optimizing health and wellness. You can go down a policy path or an epi path, or you could go and do sort of social cultural work or access work. And it doesn’t really matter which path. You need to take the path that you have the most passion about so that you can be most successful. And we’re always happy to talk to anybody who has questions about which path may work best for them.

Sounds like there’s really a lot of, not only opportunity, well, I guess the opportunity would be where they get jobs. But there are programs that are very quantitative, more programs that are very scientific, chemistry oriented. [9:51]That’s right.

Probably more than some that are more community oriented within the field. Am I correct? [13:23]That is absolutely correct. But I will tell you that the trading, and I actually teach the MPH graduate seminar series, which is a two-quarter course at the end of the first year, that all students with getting an MPH will really understand the critical importance of the evidence-based public health science and how to really translate that to community. And I think we did a poor job during COVID, and I think we all, as leaders in public health, have learned a lot about what not to do anymore. So we need to give students the confidence to be able to defend science, and then we need to be able to give them the experience and skills to translate that out so that they can work in any community partnering with those communities, and hopefully we move in the right direction towards, again, optimal health.

When do you anticipate that happening, and why is it the school of population and public health? That’s distinctive. [14:41]That’s a great question. And distinctive is exactly what we want to be. So UCI has always been thinking about a school in public health, and we have a lot of schools at UCI, we’re a 50,000 plus campus.

Well, we’re integrated now. That’s really wonderful and UCI is topnotch on education. I left the privates to come out here to UCI because I felt I could no longer graduate students who were 150 plus thousand dollars in debt. And we’re really working, by the way, towards getting our masters in public health students out debt free.

And right now, they’re about $60,000 in debt. That’s the average. That’s less than what you see in most other schools of public health, but that’s way too much. Public health is a noble profession. But anyway, UCI has always backed and wanted to have a school of public health. Again, we’ve had a small program. I was hired about, well, four years ago in 2019 to make that transition. During that time, we grew from one department to four departments.

As I mentioned, we tripled our faculty. We’re growing our students especially, really focused on our professional MPH program, which is exactly what the world and the nation needs, right? Workforce needs of over 250,000 people in public health are needed across this country. And so we are on the way. We are very much on the way. We’re in the University of California system, so there is a bureaucracy. And we had to write a proposal which was just great, because it really gave faculty the time to think about what they wanted and how we could do things differently than other schools of public health, and what we wanted to focus on, which I have elaborated on in the last couple of questions.

Community and communication and science and enhancing the evidence base and thinking about environmental health and cancer and cardiovascular disease. So we’ve got the proposal, and it went all the way up through the system as a pre-proposal. And now it’s going back in as a full proposal. And we’re really hoping over the next few months to get a sign off on that. And that’s really important for students. I remember, I was at Columbia, as you had mentioned, and I think I started at Columbia when we were also a program and not a school. And we transitioned to being one of the great schools of public health, Columbia University Mailman School, across the country. And it’s just so great for students. Again, we’re an accredited program already.

And so, to be a school, we would then go through accreditation for a school. And that doesn’t diminish the accreditation for a program, but just enhances and really looks at the whole soup to nuts, the undergraduate, the PhD, and of course, really highlights the MPH as the professional degree in public health. And so, I think it would mean that we would have enhanced opportunities. There are some large grants out there that are only given to schools. For example, we would be this great program in this very large county really working in partnership with our community stakeholders and our government partners to really lead public health and to be that model. And so, I think it is just going to be a wonderful thing for students. Our students are thrilled to be in a program, but I think moving to the next step would just be fantastic for everyone.

When do you think, assuming that you get approval and things go forward, when do you think it would be a school as opposed to a program? And for students in the program, what do you think? What are the advantages? Is it enhanced internship opportunities, enhanced research opportunities, just more prestige to the degree? [18:46]I think there’s more prestige to the degree. I think there are definitely enhanced research opportunities. I think for our MPH students, we’ve really worked very, very hard in the last four years to really get a handle on what these practicum opportunities look like, and then how to take those practicums and move them into jobs. COVID, I think, in some ways helped that. One of the things that we did in the last couple of years is that we hired to be director of our MPH program, we hired a seasoned public health practitioner, David Soleis, who had worked both at the county for quite a while, actually into the beginning of COVID, and he was also at the California State Department of Health office for a number of years as well. And so, getting practitioners in leadership roles in these sorts of programs or schools is important.

I think it is the prestige. Also, we’re moving up in the rankings. When I got here, we were ranked at 41. We’ve moved 10 points in a very few years up to 31. We’re now number 19 comparing all across all schools and programs. And that’s private. 19 in the, sorry, 19 in the publics and 31 across. And I think that it’s harder to move into the top 20 or top 10 as a program. That’s when you really need to be a school.

And you ask then, why population in public health and why not? So it’s interesting. What we do is public health, we’re trained in public health, we’ll always be trained in public health, but the world has really looked at public health, in some ways very negatively, very punitive.: The quarantine people. And so, one of the things we wanted to do was be really inclusive of everyone and really trying to change how people thought about public health by thinking about population.

We’re really about the population, the community. And so, we ended up with this name, whatever our naming gift will be, hopefully, but a school of population and public health. And so, hoping to really get people to be positive about public health as a field and adding population.

Let’s turn to the application and the application process for the MPH. What are you looking for in terms of academics from applicants? And I’d like you to break down the academics into coursework, grades, and I noticed the GRE is waived. So if there’s anything else relevant, but those two, those three. [21:43]Academics first, and then we’ll talk about other things.

Yeah. So that’s great. So we are really looking for academically rigorous students. We are a top program in public health, so we are really looking for students with at least really a 3.0 or better and really more towards 4.0. We’d like to see that they have excelled in the sciences, because public health is a science. But we also would like to see that they’ve explored other areas, whether it’s social science or anthropology or philosophy. Because public health is not just science, but it’s really then the translation of science into things that we can do to optimize health in communities. And so, a broad liberal arts education would be wonderful. Those students tend to be well-read and can write, which communication is really important. And with some biology and some math skills, there’s a lot of data in public health. And so, maybe you’re not going to run the statistics for a program, but you certainly need to be able to interpret. And not just interpret, but translate that then out to lay populations.

And so that’s what we’re really looking for. And the other thing, though, I want to say, is don’t be discouraged. If you started out as a freshman and didn’t do so well in college, but then realized, I really am determined. I’m going to go and your GPA increases and your grades look better, that’s okay. So don’t be discouraged because we want people who’ve had real life experiences. And not all the time is everything easy.

And so we’ve waived the GREs for the MPH. Now, most schools of public health have now waived the GREs. And there’s concern that the GREs are actually biased against populations that have limited access to things like tutoring or to any kind of practice related organized activities, that they’re biased towards people who have had a lot of AP advanced placement in high schools. And everybody’s coming from a different type of educational experience. So we’ve done away with our GREs for the MPH students. But if you’re going to do epidemiology or biostats, we’re going to expect that you’ve taken some calculus or some statistics in college and that you’ve done well.

Let’s say you have an applicant whose grades aren’t fantastic, and maybe even the trend isn’t that great, or maybe there’s just an upward trend at the very end. Would you look at a GRE score? Would that be beneficial for that applicant? Are you not even looking at them? [24:58]We’re really not looking at GRE scores. Students are always encouraged to provide supplemental materials, right? And so you’re talking about a student that is a good test taker, but for whatever reason, worked three jobs and had other things going on. And just so you know, we have moved towards holistic admissions, right? And so that’s really taking the student as a whole and evaluating them that way. I mean, I was somebody who did work two jobs and probably could have done a little bit better at that time on my GREs or whatever, or the math class. But I didn’t have time. I was running around. And I think a lot of our students running around working, running around providing income for whatever, for family. A lot of our students have that. A lot of our students have really had very tough lives. And so, the holistic approach allows us to do that.

And so let me just tell you that it used to be a decade ago that the first thing, I’ve reviewed a lot of applicants in a lot of institutions, and it used to be that the first thing we would do is just cut off by GPA. So anybody under a GPA, you’re out. And then same thing with scores. And so then you’re left with this very limited amount of people, most of whom had lived more privileged lives. And now we have, and it’s not just us, but education has really moved, higher ed, thank goodness, to a place where it says, I want to evaluate the individual as a whole. And that is absolutely what we want to do and are trying to do. And so that means that if you have had some difficulty.

Could have been illness, it could have been financial, it could have been family, mental health, whatever. [27:09]Exactly. Do not hesitate to tell us, to explain. Do not hesitate to provide some insight because that’s what we need, right? How else can we know you as an applicant if you haven’t done that? And then take advantage, if you can, of opportunities for research or volunteering or working in a nursing home, right? And then really, I think it’s so important, the most important thing to focus on for an application is your personal statement, right? Because that is really how, it’s the only way that we get to know you. And really, I would say be very thoughtful about that and try to bring it in and integrate in what your vision of public health and how you want to be part of public health. And that’s the way that you’ll get into a great school like UCI.

That’s great advice. Thank you. Now, you touched on volunteering maybe in a nursing home, wherever. Experientially, what do you recommend applicants have in their background when they apply? [28:12]I think that working in communities or working around health is probably really important, and that’s very broad. So I talked about a nursing home. When I was in high school, I did whatever it was, big brother, big sister, right? Just a sense of perspective about society. And you get that perspective when you do those kinds of volunteer activities. And so, that to me, whatever it is, or even showing innovation and initiative by starting a new club. We have great students even in our undergrad who do a lot of work. They’re sort of justice advocates, right, around justice. And so those are the kind of things that build character, and that’s what we really want in public health. So those kind of activities are great.

UCI requires the SOPHAS application, which is for masters in public health, as well as a personal history statement and a statement of purpose. Now, you kind of touched on that a minute ago when you talked about your vision for public health, but what are you hoping to glean from those documents that you don’t get from the rest of the SOPHAS? And how do you view them as being different? [29:24]The two different statements you mean?

Personal history statement. I mean, I think I know what the difference is, but I’d like you to tell the listeners, what is the difference between the personal history statement and the statement of purpose? What are you hoping to get from it? [29:52]Yeah, so the statement of purpose, I think, really reflects a sense of maturity in thinking about what public health is. And people probably, students probably don’t know this, but 20 years ago, you didn’t even get into an MPH program unless you had at least two to five years of experience in public health. And so, people would have to put those experiences together. And so statements of purpose, so we’re not asking for that now, but we’re asking for the same kind of level of maturity about what you think public health is and how you think you can work through public health. What do you want to do? To say something like, I really just want to help the world. I think that’s wonderful. So tell me how and why, and the statement of purpose is, how are you going to think about helping the world?

What are you going to do? Well, I want to be an epidemiologist because I really like numbers and I want to understand the social impact of diseases. So in COVID, we saw these huge disparities by race, ethnicity, and so I think that might be a result of structural racism. And so what I want to use my epi degree for is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so you really, you’ve thought about it, and that’s what we want. We want students who are thinking about it, not just watching CIS or whatever television show.

The joke that everybody knows is, halfway through COVID, I got a call from my mother and she said, now I finally know what you do.What do you mean? I’ve been doing this for 25 years. And she said, yeah, but I just never knew. I said, I’m an epidemiologist. But COVID helped define what people in public health did, and that everybody does different things.

And so when you apply, it’s a serious degree. It’s a noble degree. It’s as noble as medicine or nursing or pharmacy or dentistry, social work. It’s a noble degree, and you need to think it through and think about how you are going to contribute. And so, that’s a statement of purpose, if you will. And your background, again, is how I got to where I am and what happened along the way, and to get to know me as a person. So they’re really very different. And we have a really fine group of faculty who review all of this and are really thinking again about this holistic approach.

We want to understand if students are diverse, because diversity is an asset. We want to make sure that we admit students that are all different, varied backgrounds and experiences, because students come together and they’re a cohort and they influence each other and each other’s thinking. So we don’t want everyone to be the same because we know that diversity is really the key to helping solve all of these problems. We love students who have gone out into the fields, whether it’s here in the US, whether it’s globally.

We want to know about those experiences and what they thought about those experiences. And we love students who, maybe they have another degree. Maybe they already have a RN, for example. And they’ve been very focused on treating individual patients. Public health is about the community, and maybe they’re thinking, I enjoy treating my patients, but I really want to think about community health, and I want to think about what that looks like. And so, again, diversity, but I will also say, engineering students, we need you in public health, computer students, we need you in public health because you bring skills and a different perspective. And that’s, again, how we’re going to solve some of these major problems.

Question about the statement of purpose. A lot of times, statements of purpose will also say, I’m applying to program X. I want to long-term solve whatever problem they want to solve, but I’m going to use X, Y, A, B, C resources in the program to prepare me to address those problems. Do you want to also know a little bit about why UCI, what path they’re going to take, or that’s not so important to you? [34:02]It’s very important for our PhD students. I think it’s nice to have that for the MPH, but the MPH is a professional degree. It’s a little bit different, but it would be nice to know that, for example, they say, I want to do community engaged research. And Dr. LeBron, Tanja Siri, Roe and Mori are the top community participatory researchers in the country, and I want to do my MPH with them. That’s wonderful. That really, again, that shows that they’re mature in their thinking about this.

And I would just add passion is so important, and that comes through by when you look at excitement. So to try to have some passion in these statements is great.

What is a common mistake that you see applicants make in their applications? [35:24]Missing application deadlines.

And also, another common, I think, sort of statement of purpose or background is people have had events that have changed their lives, and they want to tell you about those events. But what happens is they’ll tell you about the event, and then they’ll think that you as the reader can just get from that event to being an applicant in public health. If you’re going to tell us that you’re inspired to do public health because your grandmother had cancer.

Why don’t you become an oncologist? [36:11]Right? Well, right. Then work through the logic, right? I’ve seen the most incredible statements that start with my grandmother had cancer, and flow through, and it’s because of this, this and this, that I realized that I wanted to do this, and I wanted to work with communities around cancer and cancer survivorship. And then I saw that my grandmother had cancer and I want to go into public health. And the mistake there is I have no idea what’s in between there and in the thinking and how am I supposed to get to know you? So it’s good to have the pivotal moments, but you have to make the connections.

You’re not, in other words, you said this a couple of times in different ways, but you’re not a good mind reader. [36:56]No. Nobody is.

No. And we get hundreds of applications, right? So we are selective, and so I need to know why. Tell me why.

Is an interview part of the application process? [27:18]It’s not part of the MPH process. I think that there have been cycles when everybody gets interviewed over the decades, and then not. Should it be? I think probably, but I also think it’s very hard. How do you get students in, is it different in Zoom than in person, et cetera. So right now it’s not, although we do want to meet our students when they get accepted. And if you’ve been accepted to UCI, congratulations. We’re hoping to see you at admitted students day next week.

What makes an applicant jump off the page to you in a positive way? [37:58]Again, I think diversity, maturity, perspective, those are the key things. And of course, excellence. Excellence in everything that they’ve done or tried, or applicants who have the maturity to say, I had to work two jobs. And so, this is how I structured my educational experience so I could do those two things. So maybe it took five years instead of four, right? So I think maturity, passion, and also really important is knowing what public health is. And that’s something that, if you don’t know what public health is, you should come in and you should talk to our faculty, and you should get a sense. That’s where exploring schools becomes so important. But if you don’t know what public health is, jumping into a MPH professional degree, it’s going to be tough, because your expectations and our expectations may not be the same. And so, that’s an unsuccessful educational experience.

How do you view letters of intent or update letters at any time during the process or correspondence from waitlisted applicants? [39:13]I think they’re great. I’m wondering what my whole admissions committee would say about that, but I think there are no, I think it’s very, very important. Things happen, which can change in a really positive way for students, and they need to let us know, because I think that’s critically important. I’m going to get in trouble, I’m sure, after this, but I think that that’s important. So actually, our graduate student affairs team is really interested in that. And we’ll make sure that that gets incorporated in big things, right?

Right. I mean, you might want to do a summary of things that have happened, including one big thing and a few small things. That’s fine. It’s better not to get something every week, but maybe wait. But again, you’ve got this tight deadline, right? Applications are due usually in the middle of December, right, and then we’re going to start looking in the beginning of January. So you want to get stuff in when it happens, especially if it’s a big thing.

Now, you have a MPH. [40:30]I do.

You’ve been in the field as a professor and administrator for roughly two decades. What would you tell yourself if you were applying in 2023 or 2024 for a MPH? [40:32]Yeah, that is a great question. What would I tell myself?

What would you advise yourself? What didn’t you realize? What would you advise yourself? [40:48]Yeah, I would advise myself to really take advantage of the faculty that are around during the MPH if you’re in the program, right? That’s what you’re talking about, in the program?

No, I’m talking about as an applicant. [41:10]Oh, as an applicant.

As an applicant. I think it’s great advice, by the way, when you’re in the program. You just said it. [41:13]You asked a question, which I think was a great question, before, which was about, do you describe the people you might want to work with? And so I do think you should decide, so not all MPH programs are the same. So that’s the first thing, okay? And while we have this wonderful US news and World Report rankings, it’s controversy on that, obviously. But while we do have that, you have to decide, you have to say, I want an MPH. Why? What do I want to do with it? And so you need to make sure that you get, it’s not dissimilar to undergraduate, that you find programs that are going to have the things that interest you. So for example, global health, right? If you’re interested in global health, you want to go to a program that has global health experiences. You want to go to a program where a lot of faculty do global health, right?

Again, the same thing with community engagement. If you’re really set on doing cancer, look to see how many people are doing cancer. Also, I think I would look to see, what are the experiences of partnerships or collaborations across different schools? Who’s working with who, and maybe how do you do that? How do you find that out? So one thing you do is you can find the faculty that you might be interested in because of the area. Look them up, look at their papers. Are they collaborating with other people around the university? Because I think that those collaborations can lead to really positive things and can also be networks for you if you’re set on an area. And I would, of course, before I applied, ask, should I wait or should I move forward? How strong is my application? Would my application be stronger if I spent the next eight to nine months volunteering at an organization or whatever it is?

So I think making, really, really getting my application as strong as possible, talking to people in the field and identifying, say, the five schools around the country or around the state, whatever, five schools and programs that really are the best match for you. So say I don’t want to stay on campus. I’m taking care of my grandmother, and I want to live at home. You don’t want to have a five hour commute every day. So it depends upon what, and then thinking about people like me on the campus. How many people have lived in communities like the ones I’ve lived in that have gone to the school and that have been successful? And what does the student body look like? And how am I going to feel that I fit in? Do most of the students work? Do most of the students not work? Right? Is it a commuter school? So all of those things, plus then, what’s the science and where do I fit into the science?

What would you have liked me to ask you? [44:27]On this one, I think I’m very happy that you asked about the application. I think that’s important. One thing I always ask students when I see them is, what do you see yourself doing in 10 years, right? Because that eliminates all of the work of the MPH and the PhD if you’re going to go on that way. And I think that gives me a good sense of where they, both their maturity level, but what are they most attracted to? And so say you really want to go into the CDC and be an epidemic intelligence officer, right? So you might want to look at an Emory and you might also want to look at other schools that have sent students to go to the CDC, for example. So I think that that’s really important is envisioning yourself 10 years from now, thinking about where you want to be, and then thinking about if that program or school is going to get you there.

That’s great advice. Thank you so much. Dr. Boden-Albala, I think we’re almost out of time. You’ve been really generous with your time, and I want to thank you for joining me and sharing your expertise. This has been absolutely delightful. Where can listeners learn more about UCI’s MPH program? [45:30]PublicHealth.uci.edu.

Relevant Links:

• UCI Program in Public Health
• Graduate Admissions – UCI Program in Public Health
• An MPH/Postbac Grad’s Journey Through Med School
• Master of Public Health (MPH) SOPHAS Packages
• An MPH/Postbac Grad’s Journey Through Med School
• Interview With a DO/MpH Pursuing his Passion

Related Shows:

• Casper, A Situational Judgment Test: All You Need to Know [Episode 513]
• MD/PA/NP/DO/DDS/MPH: What Do They Require? [Episode 499]
• Harvard MD/MPH Student and Premed Podcaster Mary Tate [Episode 257]

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In this episode Dr. Patrick Reed and Prof. Robert Newman discuss the Engineering Management Program at Cornell and what the Adcom wants to see in applicants. [SHOW SUMMARY]Are you an engineer who wants to stay in a technical environment but move into managerial roles? Cornell’s Engineering Management Masters may be the answer to your prayers. And it comes in two flavors: On campus and online. We’re going to learn about both from the directors of the program so tune in.

An interview with both the Director of Cornell’s Masters in Engineering Management Program and the Executive Director/Senior Lecturer of Engineering Management at Cornell University. [SHOW NOTES]Welcome to the 516th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Before we dive into today’s interview, I want to mention a free resource at Accepted that can benefit you if you are applying to graduate engineering programs. Applying to graduate engineering programs, what you need to know is a free downloadable guide that can guide you through a process you’ve never been through before. It’s not the same as applying to college. Download your complimentary copy.

Our guests today are Dr. Patrick Reed and Professor Robert Neuman. Dr. Reed is the director of Cornell’s Masters in Engineering Management program or the MEM. He’s joined today by Professor Robert Newman, Executive Director and Senior Lecturer in Engineering Management at Cornell University.

Hello, Dr. Reed and Professor Newman. Welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:37]Dr. Patrick Reed:

Good afternoon.

I’m delighted to speak with you both. Let’s start with how I normally like to start a podcast. Dr. Reed, what is the Engineering Management program at Cornell University? Can you provide an overview of, first of all, the on-campus program? [1:43]Dr. Patrick Reed:

Yeah, so the first thing is, just to clarify, what type of degree it is. It’s our master’s of engineering, so it’s a professional degree. Within this, it’s in the College of Engineering, and Engineering Management itself is a program where we are bringing folks that typically have engineering or STEM training, and then they want to continue in a technology-driven environment while simultaneously training them into the skill sets that links them into business and putting them into a trajectory where their future career is more focused in transitioning the technologies to market and thinking about management roles. It’s that interface where it’s a nice balance where you get individuals that can be involved all the way down to the technical specifications and design stage of technology, and translating it into its ultimate societal use and marketing, and the more management-driven, and I would say entrepreneurial driven opportunities.

Now, in terms of the on-campus program, can you just go over what people will be studying? ]3:07]Dr. Patrick Reed:

Sure. What folks will be doing when they come to the program – it’s a typical version of the on-campus – is a two-semester program. When they come, they will be taking a mixture of our core courses and then some of our electives. They’ll be taking courses in project management and data analytics, economics and finance, decision making, and leadership seminars. We’ll also want them to get a broader training, so they’ll be taking electives in organizational behavioral. It’s one of those things where it’s not just enough to have the technology or the idea or the design. You have to put that within the institution and market context that you want. Then one of the defining traits of our program is that it’s open to nine specialization credits and a lot of that is taken across colleges can be within engineering, it could be within the business school, or even more broadly.

With that, our popular tracks, consulting analytics leadership, we have real estate and construction management, sustainability and renewable energy, entrepreneurship. Robert can correct me, but I think one of our most popular tracks is the build your own track, or students come in and they see the flavors of all the different coursework that’s available and they tailor to their own interests. It’s pretty flexible in that regard, but yeah, that gives you a synopsis. That’s typically done in one academic year. We do have the option for students who want to maybe do an internship and they have a little more flexibility. There can be a three-semester option for the on-campus folks.

Now, Professor Newman, can you answer the same question about the online program? Provide an overview. How is the online program structured? [5:05]Professor Robert Newman:

Sure. Thank you very much. The online program really allows professionals who are currently in the workplace to come and get the same degree but while remaining in their job and to continue to work full-time. As a part-time program, students will take either one or two courses each semester. This allows them to finish the program in as short as four semesters, or they can take a longer period of time if that suits their workload better. Except for two one-week-long, summer intensives that we hold each June, the classes are done completely remotely. They’re scheduled in accordance with our normal academic calendar, so the start date of the classes is the same as the start date with the on-campus students, and the end dates are the same as the end dates with the on-campus students.

Very much the same classes for the most part, although there are some specialty classes that we have for the online students as well. Then there’s a variety of levels and synchronicity versus coordination of schedules depending on the type of class. Some classes, the students who are online can do most of the work on their own schedule. Other classes, especially classes that require coordination with students for activities such as a class in negotiations, for instance, they would have to schedule coordinates with their classmates.

Are there electives or what percentage of courses are elective in each of the programs? Dr. Reed, do you want to start with that one? [6:35]Dr. Patrick Reed:

Yeah, so for ours, we have a 32-credit on-campus degree, and nine of those credits are specialization or optional, and so there’s a degree of flexibility there. Then even within, for example, organizational and behavioral, we have multiple options that are available to the students. If they want to take different flavors of that, for example, emphasizing contemporary issues that they currently face or if they want a more entrepreneurship focus, we have different options there. In that regard, definitely nine credits available, and then beyond that, there’s some freedom in some of the requirements.

Professor Robert Newman:

Yeah, and I would add to that one of the things that many of our students say is that’s one of the things that attracts them to Cornell is their ability to pick. Almost a third of their program, they get to design based on their area of interest and the things they want to learn.

Now, is the degree that participants earn in both programs the same? Do they both get a master’s in engineering management, or is there an asterisk after the diploma for the online program? [7:48]Professor Robert Newman:

Yeah, so they’re both exactly the same. From the student view, it’s the same as a master’s in engineering or degree in engineering management. The course listings on the transcripts will look the same and the diploma is the same.

Are you seeing any difference in terms of… Well, I guess one group is more for experienced people and the online program is more of an early career program. Is that correct or not so correct? [8:12]Professor Robert Newman:

That is correct. The on-campus program usually is people in their fifth year of academia or people who have maybe two or three years of work experience, and then they’re coming back to academia to get their master’s degree. Whereas the online course is for students that must have at least two years experience, but right now, we’re averaging about eight years experience in our distance learning program.

Wow, really? That’s even more than typically in an MBA program. [8:51]Professor Robert Newman:

Yes, it is.

Dr. Patrick Reed:

That’s been attractive for the interactions between our program and the Cornell MBA program. They find that a lot of our students, even the on-campus students, are coming with some nice industrial experience and perspectives, so it’s been positive, and we’ve been fortunate for how the distance learning program… I mean, we’re new. We launched in 2020.

Great time to launch a new program. [9:23]Dr. Patrick Reed:

Learning by doing and talking about entrepreneurial. Five years before that were a lot of plans and a lot of studio time, but it’s been great. Right now, we have across a couple cohorts, and I think Robert can correct me, but we have 55 professionals at different stages of working their way through while simultaneously giving them a sense of cohort and connectedness. That’s neat because you have people in different companies, in different parts of the country that are connecting in ways through these courses and interactions that wouldn’t be available otherwise. In many ways, I’d say from the faculty perspective, there’s been a lot of fun and benefits from bringing in people with so much diversity of backgrounds and experience.

Do the programs ever meet? Participants, I mean. [10:16]Dr. Patrick Reed:

Off in terms of the flexibility for the DEL and the professional constraints, that generally the cohorts aren’t together at this stage because of the logistics would be very difficult, and our on-campus cohorts are quite a bit larger, and so the logistics of that coordination is a bit more challenging.

How many people are in each of the programs? [10:41]Dr. Patrick Reed:

I’m correct, Robert? I think we have 55 that are in process in our distance learning, and then we have something on the order of over 100 in our on-campus degree program ranging from folks that may be staying an extra semester and some of those that are in the more traditional nine-month, two-semester track.

What are the most significant differences between the masters in engineering management and the MBA or even an executive MBA? Because it sounds like the average age group has eight years of experience, you’re almost approaching the executive MBA area marketplace. [11:03]Dr. Patrick Reed:

I’ll take a stab at this and then I’ll pass to Robert because you have an engineer and you have someone with an MBA, an executive experience. I would say from my perspective, you don’t come to get a master’s of engineering management to leave engineering. The tagline is you’re coming to lead it, and so you’re tied to the technology, you’re tied to the technical fundamentals of the design or the technology, the architecture of what’s being invented while simultaneously transitioning that into the market context. The way that I view this is depending on the track, and that they’re not necessarily mutually exclusive, and we can talk about that, but the master’s of engineering management is putting somebody, potentially, you could think of them at that CTO track or somebody who’s going to be entrepreneurial, but they’re in on the design. They’re not just marketing something that’s technical that they’re trusting somebody else. They can get into the details, the technical specs, the functionality, the scoping, and I think that’s a little bit different. I’ll pass to Robert. It’s always interesting to hear what your colleagues have to say.

Professor Robert Newman:

Yeah, I think that’s spot on, Pat. One way I might phrase it is that the people who come from a master’s in engineering management degree, they love what they do, they are technical experts in some engineering or computer science field, and they don’t want to stop doing that. They just want to be much more skilled at leading that.

That’s a good distinction. Both of you, thank you. Let’s go into applying to and getting into the MEM, either the online or the on-campus one. What are the academic requirements to gain admission? [13:01]Dr. Patrick Reed:

I’ll speak from director level. Our typical candidate is going to have an engineering degree or a quantitative STEM driven physics, computer science, and sometimes, that can be mathematics or applied physics or things like that, but it would be a rare exception that we wouldn’t bring someone in as STEM. Then even within those fields, a big part of our current program is we’ve made a significant move. I think people can feel the pressures of how technology is changing on a day-by-day basis, and we want to set a foundation for our students, and so that means they need to understand probability, statistics, and the emerging underlying mathematics of analytics, which is changing day by day. We put a big emphasis not just on the engineering or STEM degree, but also making sure that they have the underlying mathematical qualifications to be able to handle some of the analytics training that we’ll have in the program. I’ll pass to Robert in terms of if you want to add to any differences for our distance learning.

Professor Robert Newman:

No, I don’t think I have anything to add to that.

What if somebody comes from a non-engineering background? Can they take the coursework and would you consider that and then if they showed aptitude in the coursework, or do you really want somebody with a STEM degree? [14:29]Dr. Patrick Reed:

What do I mean by STEM degree and what is it I’m specifically interested in… The calc series, so you’re going to have to… I’m looking in detail at whether or not somebody has gone all the way through multivariate calculus, has some linear algebra in their background. There’s different levels of mechanics that we don’t necessarily require that is in engineering degrees, but might be implied if they took electives in the college of engineering. Then probability and statistics are something that we don’t really compromise so much on, but that doesn’t mean that we wouldn’t allow somebody to take that in the background. I think it’s mathematics predominantly.

It is nice to see some physics, or if they’re more on the software side, on the computer science side of interest, that they have the underlying fundamentals there in terms of software engineering, some of the coding classes, and some of the background and theoretical basis for software development. There are examples where we’ve had exceptional people that had unique backgrounds and stories, and they did the work. They worked with us and asked what were the background in terms of the math and or physics or statistics that we thought would fill a gap for them, but to be completely honest, that’s relatively rare.

Thank you. No, I would assume that it is rare because it’s also very demanding, but I noticed in preparing for the call in terms of academic requirements, that the GRE is optional for the online program and not even mentioned for the on-campus program. When can a solid GRE score help to you? [16:08]Dr. Patrick Reed:

I do a lot of the initial screening of applications, and then work with Robert and our whole program to really vet are candidates, but to be honest, I don’t use the GRE as a preliminary screening device, and I do not allow it to be a negative, so the way that I view it is it’s supplemental information if somebody provides it. It provides me with maybe a little bit of extra information in terms of the quantitative or the verbal elements or some aspects, but I can say where they’re spending their time, I would spend a lot more time on the statement than I would on an optional GRE.

It’s great advice. Experientially, what do you like to see from candidates or in candidates’ backgrounds? [17:08]Professor Robert Newman:

Aside from the two years minimum work experience, which is a requirement for all the online applicants, we really look for candidates who have a few things. One is those who want to develop both their technical expertise but also their human skills or their soft skills, and their ability to be more effective leaders of engineering teams and engineering projects. We look for people who have a really clear understanding of why they want to come get the MEM degree, and people who exhibit the potential to grow and to grow personally, and that they’re looking for personal development over the course of this program, not just to simply add a degree to their resume.

Dr. Reed, do you want to add anything to that? [17:59]Dr. Patrick Reed:

I really like that last point, I think. This is a unique opportunity, you’re coming to a program. Whether it’s distance, you’re still in the Cornell family and resources, and it’s a unique time, and so I think it’s really important to make it more than just resume decoration. This is an opportunity to really think about what you want to attain, what your path is. I think we can distinguish the types of candidates that want to just come because the name is Cornell versus those candidates that want to come because they’re on a personal journey and in whatever their story is for their professional development or their aspirations. Yeah, we’re really looking for that latter. That’s part of our role is to help them fulfill that.

So, you’re looking more for a purposeful approach, the application process? [18:48]Dr. Patrick Reed:

The purposeful, right. That’s why I emphasize this statement. People may be surprised, but I really do read every line of every one of these, and it’s an amazing privilege actually to be able to meet digitally so many different people and have so many stories, but if you’re the person writing it, you have to realize that you have somebody that’s reading potentially hundreds of these, and so there are going to be things that are going to stand out, and it’s going to be your personal narrative, your aspirations why you’re there. It’s more than just academics, too. It’s not just that, “Oh, I got straight As, and therefore I qualify.” In many cases, if we have a compelling lived experience that’s narrated through a statement, that will more than compensate for somebody not having a straight A GPA.

That’s a wonderful answer. Thank you. Professor Newman, do you have anything to add? [19:49]Professor Robert Newman:

The only other thing that I might look for in candidates, other than making sure they understand what’s the purpose for them coming and how’s their world going to change as they get this degree is make sure that they have a clear understanding of the coursework and what they’re walking into. Going from working full-time to trying to get a degree online, it’s a lot of work, and making sure they have a clear understanding and a way to budget their time so that when they sign up for a four credit hour course, they realize, “Okay, this is going to be 12 hours a week for the next 13 weeks,” and that they have a realistic understanding of how that coursework is going to fit in their schedule as well as how it’s going to help develop and grow them professionally to reach their goals.

Dr. Patrick Reed:

Just to jump on that briefly, this is something I do want to maybe put a few underlines under is we’re mandated by the State of New York to have a certain number of our class hours spent per hour in class, and so obviously, we take that seriously, and sometimes that can surprise some applicants both on campus, and in particular, those that are in a working environment and for the distance. I would say when applicants come from the first conversations, it’s good to clarify with us where you’re at and what the actual expectations are. It’s not something we arbitrarily choose. This is something that’s mandated, and then we carefully track.

Yeah, I think for most part-time programs, that’s something that they really have to understand, and also they need their employer’s support if they’re working full-time, they might need their family’s support if they have families, so that is critical. Now, we’ve touched on the statement of purpose. Can you describe the application process for each of the programs? I noticed there’s a statement of purpose requirement and a technical writing sample requirement for both programs, which is a little bit unusual. Last question was, can you go into the distinction between the statement of purpose and the technical writing sample? There’s a lot in that one question. I probably should have broken it up. [21:28]Dr. Patrick Reed:

Yeah, no, I’ll take it. The statement of purpose is landing us into your narrative. Who are you? What is the journey that you’ve been on? What are the aspirations and experiences that have shaped where you’re at? Then how do you connect to our program? We’re looking for a degree of maturity there. That’s somebody that’s taking ownership in this experience. It’s not, “Oh, I’m going to go to Cornell and they’re going to get me a job.” No, you’re going to get you a job through completing your narrative and your path professionally. Now, when we move to the example of professional writing, that’s a different voice and it’s a very different skill. It’s telling in terms of the professional voice and the narrative of presenting technical information. I find that also quite helpful to distinguish candidates where you can see in context whether that’s on-campus or distance, how they’re communicating and conveying information, which is obviously, it’s not about necessarily them. That’s about the clarity of their communication, and in many ways, the ability of our program to augment that ability to communicate.

Robert, do you want to add it all to that? [23:26]Professor Robert Newman:

He covered it really well.

Now, on the site, you encourage applicants to be creative, and the site actually says, quote, “We want to learn more about you in a fun, engaging way,” close quote. Now, I have read thousands of statements of purpose in the last 20 plus years, so I can understand why you would rather read fun, engaging statements of purpose, but when does fun and creativity demonstrate poor judgment or become weird, forced or just inauthentic? Not helpful. [23:31]Dr. Patrick Reed:

In the modern age of AI supported writing, if we start to see similar patterns in your pros that it may in fact be augmented and not telling your story, I’d say that’s a new issue that’s coming in. I think in terms of that boundary, first of all, it’s fine to not overshare, and if you do want to share, that’s fine, but sometimes you read an essay and you come out of the other end of it and you’re not sure how it’s related to grad school. Might have been fun, might have been creative, but it’s not topically relevant, the task at hand. I would say having just read several hundred of these, those are the cases that stand out as not connecting to what we’re doing. This is a collaborative communication. We’re exchanging information. If I don’t leave from that exchange with any more in-depth knowledge of you and how you connect to my program, I might remember your essay, but I’m probably not going to respond positively.

You may not remember it in a positive way either. [25:23]Dr. Patrick Reed:

There’s always interesting examples here or there.

That was a wonderful answer. Thank you very much. Robert, did you have anything you wanted to add to that? [25:33]Professor Robert Newman:

Yeah, I do. Realistically, I want to know something about the applicant that would be different than every other applicant can tell me. I want them to bring enough creativity to their application or to their interview where I have something unique about them that I might remember and something that sets them apart because realistically, we have hundreds and hundreds of applicants and most of them have very similar backgrounds, so bringing something fun, something different, something unique about yourself helps to make it personalized as long as you don’t take it too far and as long as you still put it in the context of why you’re applying for this program and why this program is a good fit for you.

Dr. Patrick Reed:

There is one thing I do want to tie to the degree though, and it’s something that I think we cover in a lot of our classes, is that creativity is the defining trait that separates a lot of folks and success. The ability to do the quantitative work is not necessarily unique, but it’s what you do with that quantitative work that’s going to be the distinguishing factor, and so beginning with that creativity and how one presents oneself, you start to get an indication because the reality is we have an incredibly talented pool, and that pool is only beginning, more competitive, and larger. To be honest, most people have pretty incredible quantitative skill sets. What distinguishes people is what they’re going to do with it.

It seems to me like the top engineers have to be on one hand analytical, but it’s the creativity that they bring to that analysis and that numerical and quantitative ability that distinguishes the great engineers from the average engineers. Is that correct? [27:23]Dr. Patrick Reed:

Yeah, I think one of the things is doing what’s already been done well is not trivial. Recognizing what needs to be done and hasn’t been done, and how one would approach it is that’s where you start to get into new spaces, new impacts, translating your ideas into new markets. That’s where we’re operating is we want those individuals that aren’t following through with tried and true methods. We want the folks that are creating what is going to be needed, and that vision, and that creativity, both in the quantitative side, and we shouldn’t just overemphasize. The bias in engineering is doing quantitative work and thinking that that’s thinking. The organizational behavioral elements relating the managerial elements, you can have a great idea, but if you don’t team build and bring that out in terms of the actual context that is going to take it to market, then the idea might as well not exist.

Thank you for that answer. Is an interview required of all admitted applicants? If not, who is invited to interview? [28:57]Professor Robert Newman:

That’s a great question. Basically, we like to interview as many applicants as feasible. The structure and system is a little different for online students than it is for on-campus students. With the on-campus students, we get flooded with applications of students that we’ve never talked to, and so in that case, we’re going to interview almost all of those. There may be a few very, very top candidates or a few candidates who have a Cornell engineering undergraduate degree who we may admit without an interview, but for the most part, the on-campus student applicants are going to get an interview if they’re in contention for a position.

With the online program, it’s a little different in that without any exceptions that I know of, by the time somebody applies to the online program, they’ve already spoken to faculty, they’ve already spoken to staff, and we already have somewhat of a relationship and an understanding of who they are and why they’re coming here, so there’s no usually a reason to schedule a separate interview after the fact because we’ve already gotten to know them a little bit through information sessions and then one-on-one questions and answers. That just doesn’t happen with the on-campus cohort, but they do happen ahead of time with the online students.

The two questions that have occurred to me as you have been speaking: You said how many people are in the program, but how many applications do you receive in an academic cycle? [30:26]

Dr. Patrick Reed:

That’s been growing, which is nothing I’m necessarily complaining about at all. This year, we have for on-campus, and I think, distance learning combined approaching about 600. Last year, we were over 700. When I started my position as director in 2015, we were more in the 180 applications. As our program has evolved, our curriculum has evolved, and I think the awareness of technology and management meets engineering has evolved. There’s been a bit of an explosion. To give you some direct transparent numbers, we’re looking at applications, particularly, we’ll take the on-campus as the example, there’s more than 500. Of those, we are looking at probably interviewing no more than 140 individuals. The interview doesn’t mean that we’re at the final decision. That’s the last part of the evaluation.

Especially for the online program, but for both of them, is there an international component to the student body? [31:48]Professor Robert Newman:

Yeah, so there definitely is. With the online program, we’re really focused. At this point, we’re still focused on North America just for the convenience of time zone, although we may expand that in the future. With the on-campus cohort, we have probably about 70% of our students come from countries outside of the United States.

That’s enormous. Okay, great. Now, moving forward in this journey, what are typical positions that grads of the MEM programs go into? [32:07]Professor Robert Newman:

Sure. It would almost be easier to tell you what positions they don’t go into, but I can take a stab at this because you have to understand that the students coming in, first of all, have a broad range of experience and industries and undergraduate work, so everything from computer science to biomedical engineering to aerospace engineering to civil engineering to mechanical engineering and electrical engineering. There’s a wide range of skill sets coming in, and there’s a wide range of interests, not only in different industries but also different job types. Many will go into engineering roles, others will go into data analytics, some will go into consulting. Both product management and project management are extremely popular with our graduates. Some come because they have an entrepreneurial mindset and they’re looking to either start businesses or grow businesses.

I noticed online that at Cornell, and certainly at other universities, there’s an option for an MS/MBA. That’s obviously different from the MEM, and it probably takes about three years to complete, but for whom is that option better for? [33:21]Professor Robert Newman:

I think that’s a really good option for top students. Absolute top students. it is an extremely competitive program to get into, but people who are looking to be entrepreneurs or looking to actually run businesses, so engineers and technical people who have a mindset that they want to be moving up to the C-suite at some point while staying in very tech products or tech services in engineering related fields. The program is sequential, so it’s not in parallel. You’d still come and get your MEM degree first, and then in your last semester of the MEM degree, you would apply to the Johnson School for the MBA portion of the combined program.

Now, what is a common mistake that you see applicants make in their application? We’ve discussed a couple of them. I don’t know if this is going to be repetitive, actually, but just again, this is something I like to ask because it’s, I think, as instructive sometimes to know what people shouldn’t do and what they should do. What would you say is a common mistake that you see? [34:21]Dr. Patrick Reed:

One is to complete the application as requested. That’s a basic but surprisingly common issue. I think one of the things that people may… They may see it as a task and not a story. It makes sense for it to be an integrated story that includes your transcript because you’re taking classes and a degree, and you had aspirations. I assume you would invest in that. You’re professional. It makes no sense. Every so often, you’ll see folks will have not gone to as much depth on the professional experience they actually have, and so I would limit your opportunity costs. If you have a unique experience, I would share that. Then I think too few students necessarily realize that we do value things that go beyond just academics. The example is if you have a unique skillset, like you’re a concert pianist, but that’s not related to your engineering management, it is related actually, so we should know about that because it speaks volumes about your dedication and your breadth. Yeah, I would say don’t sell yourself short and make sure that the story is broad in all of the features that you need us to know about.

Professor Robert Newman:

I would add to that, when it gets to the level of an interview, there’s really two repeated common mistakes that I see. That is, applicants either, when they’re asked a question, quickly diverting to telling me what they want me to hear about them. They have a preconceived storyline they want to make sure they get across during their interview instead of answering the question that was asked. The other similar mistake they may make is some applicants will provide an answer that they believe the interviewer wants to hear instead of just answering the question as asked. One of the things we look for, can you actually listen to my question and answer the question as opposed to telling me some things that you think are really important for me to hear about your background?

Dr. Patrick Reed:

Be exceptional, but don’t tell us that you are exceptional.

That’s a great one. [37:20]Professor Robert Newman:

I like that, Pat.

Very succinct, short, sweet, and to the point. It’s a great one. Okay. I’m great. Really, I am. What question would you have liked me to ask that I haven’t asked, or what question would you like to answer that I didn’t ask? [37:27]Dr. Patrick Reed:

For me, I think one of the things is where do we see things evolving, especially at the interface of engineering, tech, and business over even the next five years?

Dr. Patrick Reed:

I think we’re in a stage now where if somebody went back to 2019 and tried to predict 2020 through 2023, they’d probably do a pretty poor job. That’s not all… We can fixate on the negative sides of that, but there’s also the positive sides of that in terms of the explosive growth. AI is largely gone common and viral. People are playing with it in their every day and in their networks, and that’s not slowing down. We’re at the beginning phases of this, and there’s levels of communication at the humanity scale that hasn’t existed before and are accelerating any breakthroughs in technology.

To get to the point here is that I think training for a future where creativity, a willingness to embrace the fact that the future’s going to have some ambiguities and some significant uncertainties, to stop pretending like we’re going to respond to what will be, and be a little more careful with being ready just in case, and the way that we’re handling our technologies, the way we’re handling our supply chains, the way that we’re having an impact, at the end of the day, if we’re really thinking about the impact of technology, the impact of decisions, the impact of engineering on society, there are a lot of issues to consider there. I think we need to make sure that as we’re moving forward, that we can distinguish actual action that is making the world a better place from the appearance of action. I think part of that is the breadth of training and the depth of training. I think that’s something that we discuss a lot in our program is bringing people to the stage where it’s not the appearance of action. You’re actually making a translatable impact.

It sounds to me like that’s your niche. [39:57]Dr. Patrick Reed:

We hope so.

Professor Newman, did you have a question that you’d like to respond to that I didn’t ask? [40:00]Professor Robert Newman:

Sure. Absolutely. I guess a question that I would like you to ask that you may not have is what do our students and what do our graduates say as to why they chose Cornell as a MEM program from Cornell? What we see is they give three or four reasons over and over again. One is the strong mix of extremely technically rigorous skill development alongside with human soft skill development needed for leadership. Another one is the level of personal support from faculty to students is really appreciated by our alumni and our students. Probably the third one-

Okay, we have a snowstorm going on and it’s affecting the internet here, but the third reason is absolutely the flexibility of the program and the ability to pick nine credits of electives as well as one of your organizational behavior electives is really appreciated. Then the fourth one would be the strength and support that they get from the alumni network. We have the Cornell Alumni Network is huge, and even with the MEM program itself, it’s been going on for well over 30 years on campus. Cornell alumni like to help Cornell students and future alumni. Those are the four reasons why people tell me over and over that they came to Cornell for a master’s in engineering management.

That’s a wonderful way to end.Dr. Reed and Professor Newman, thank you so much for joining me today. I’ve enjoyed learning more about Cornell’s master’s in engineering management and its evolution since the last time we spoke. Dr. Reed, where can listeners and interested applicants learn more about it? [42:08]Dr. Patrick Reed:

You can go to our website www.engmanagement.cornell.edu or if you just want to do Google Cornell Engineering Management, you’re going to find us.

Relevant Links: Cornell’s Masters in Engineering Management On Campus * Cornell’s Masters in Engineering Management Online * Applying to Graduate Engineering Programs: What You Need to Know* – free guide

Related Shows:* CMU Tepper’s MS in Business Analytics: All You Need to Know [Episode 510] * The Questions You SHOULD Be Asking – ANSWERED! [Episode 500] * How to Get Accepted to Graduate Engineering Programs [Episode 486] * How This Student Got Accepted to MIT’s Engineering Program and Landed a Job at Apple [Episode 460] * How This Student Got Accepted to MIT’s Engineering Program and Landed a Job at Apple [Episode 460] * Stride Funding: Where Your Education is an Investment and not a Debt [Episode 495]

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In this episode Sadie Polen, M.Ed Harvard and Accepted consultant, explores authenticity and community in graduate admissions and explains how to get a Harvard graduate degree. [Show Summary]Have you dreamed of attending Harvard for grad school? Would you like to pursue a career in education with the premier brand in education on your resume? Let’s find out how Sadie Polen did it, and how she can help you get into an elite graduate program.

An interview with Sadie Polen, Accepted admissions consultant and graduate of University of California – Davis and Harvard Graduate School of Education. [Show Notes]Welcome to the 518th episode of Admissions Straight Talk, Accepted’s podcast. Before we dive into today’s interview, I want to mention a free resource at Accepted that can benefit you if you are applying to graduate school. The challenge at the heart of admissions is showing that you both fit in at your target schools and stand out in the applicant pool. Accepted’s free download, https://reports.accepted.com/guide/how-to-fit-in-stand-out-during-the-admissions-process, will show you how to do both. Master this paradox, and you are well on your way to acceptance.

I want to welcome today our guest, Sadie Polen. Sadie was raised in Alaska, attended UC Davis where she majored in community and regional development, and then earned her master’s in education from Harvard in 2017, concentrating on education and community. She also worked at Harvard’s Center for European Students where she was an interim grants and internship coordinator and assistant to the directors. At Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government from 2013 to 2022, she became, first, the program coordinator and then the program director. In that capacity, she directed the largest domestic internship program at Harvard, oversaw grant-making for 200-plus internships worldwide. She also frequently and informally assisted her interns when it came time for them to apply to grad school. As an applicant, Harvard administrator, and advisor, she has learned what elite graduate programs in the social sciences especially in government, education and law are looking for. It gives me great pleasure to have on Admissions Straight Talk for the first time Sadie Polen.

Sadie, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:23]Thank you. It’s great to be here.

Can you tell us a little bit about where you grew up and your attraction to community work, which seems to be a theme in your educational and professional path to date? [2:26]Yes, it definitely is. I grew up in a small town in Alaska. Most towns in Alaska are small by standards outside of Alaska. It’s this little town called Homer. It’s beautiful. Alaska in general is beautiful. If anyone gets a chance to visit, I highly recommend it.

If you like winter, winter is great. It’s definitely winter. If snow is not your thing, wait till later, for sure. Small town, it was 250 miles away from a Costco, an hour-and-a-half away from a Fred Meyer, which is the northwest equivalent of a Target. I remember when the first Gap opened up in the whole state, small, small and rural in a way that not a lot of places are, but also a super wonderful place to grow up. The community was very tight-knit, or maybe chunky-knit. Even when it wasn’t tightly-knit, there were always connections because, you never knew, my music teacher was also the father of students that I went to school with. There were just all of these connections in a small town. I think also, because I grew up in such a small town, when I went to college, one of the things that I was most excited about was going to a big school.

I was thinking UC Berkeley is enormous. [3:53]Yeah, I went to Davis, but they’re about as big as Davis.

They’re both big. They’re both big, and that was one of the motivating factors for me was I was like, “Oh, I want fewer people to know me when I go to the grocery store.” However, when I got to Davis, they did. Fewer people knew me at the grocery store, and I also found myself seeking community, and it was more of I sought it out intentionally. It was an intentional community. I was on the rowing team in college, and that group of people really became my community. I am still friends with them now decades, almost decades later.

I studied abroad a couple of times in high school and in college and, again, really noticing how community impacts my own life and the scene and unseen forces that impact all of our lives, and it was something that I explored as an undergraduate. That was my undergraduate degree. It was something that I continued in my graduate studies because I love it. I love seeing how people come together in ways that are intentional, and that sometimes are in ways that are intentional that they don’t know what a good public space can create for the people who are in it without them realizing it.

For example? [5:09]I’ve definitely noticed it in town squares or even something smaller than a town square, which we see a lot now, a little parklet. Between my house right now, there’s one between a grocery store and a coffee shop, instead of it being a street, it’s a little parklet. There are always people there. There are always people gathering. Sometimes I see the same people. You say hi. If it was a street, that wouldn’t happen, and so just the ways that space plays into community and how it’s created. I’m fortunate enough now to live on a street that is very community-oriented. It’s only one-block long. I think that helps. Yeah. I love being part of all different kinds of communities, and I also brought it into my graduate work and my professional work. Working in politics and public service, community is definitely a huge part of that work.

I have an elderly mother who’s in a retirement community. There’s a lobby there. It’s for independent living, and so everybody has to be mobile. They can walk with a walker or a cane, but they have to have mobility, and just the importance of a lobby. [6:02]Yeah, it is. If there wasn’t even a little gathering space, where would people do that? Where would you socialize? Where would you say hi and stop for a five-minute chat?

You wrote to me when we were corresponding about this podcast and getting ready. You wrote to me, and I’m quoting, “I’ve also often felt like I have a clear idea of what I want, and it doesn’t fit into any particular box, so choosing a grad school was an exercise in finding a box that did fit.” Can you describe that exercise and how you came to choose Harvard’s master’s in education? It doesn’t sound like it was just “Harvard”, right? [6:39]Nope. No, it wasn’t. For a while, I thought about other graduate schools. I ended up at a graduate school of education, which I love, and I loved being there, but I thought through a lot of different graduate schools. I thought about law school and realized I had no desire to practice law, so I don’t need a law degree. I thought about a school of government because of all of my work in public service, and I was like, “That’s not exactly it either for me,” and I found that in education, not necessarily as a classroom teacher, although I’ve done that way in my past, but more as both education is in most people’s lives in some way at some point. Whether it’s their own education or their kids’ education, wherever it is, it plays a part in people’s lives, and I think, because of how pervasive it is, it can be a real source of community and a place to have a lot of impact because everyone comes through some kind of education system, so how are we building it, strengthening it, using it?

That’s where I ended up. To me, I was like, “Oh, this is what. I love community. I love this exploration. This is what I want to do,” but figuring out how to put that into a graduate program wasn’t. Well, I know I want to be a doctor, and so here’s the path. I have friends. I worked at Harvard for a long time. I worked in Boston, which has a whole lot of science like biotech science, so I knew a lot of people in the sciences, and they’re like, “Well, what words do you search when you’re interested in something? I search proteomics or mitochondria,” and I was like, “Oh, I don’t have those search terms,” because sometimes, when you’re looking at jobs or graduate schools, people use words differently versus in the sciences or in law where it’s more clear, like a legal brief is a legal brief.

What finally convinced you that Harvard was the right program? [8:58]Harvard recently restructured its master’s in education program. When I attended the program that I was part of, there’s the whole graduate school of education, and then there were a bunch of different programs: higher education, school leadership, lots of things like that. The program that I did was specialized studies, and so part of my application was saying, “Here’s what that means. Here’s what I want to do, and here’s why this is the right place for me.” I really looked into what courses are they offering, what research is happening here, and thought one –. this might be something we’ll talk about later, but I’ll jump in – one of the things that I ended up loving about specialized studies in particular was how varied the people in my program were.

There was someone who came from mid-Atlantic Coast and worked in Appalachia, and he worked in artistic education, and there was someone who came from Northern California and worked with middle-school-age children, but it was all plant-based, farm-based learning and developing really different curricula. There were people who owned their own businesses, but they were education-focused. It was just the breadth of the people that I was in not even a classroom with sometimes. . Part of specialized studies which I really liked was we developed our own curriculum of like, “Here’s the program of classes that I want to fulfill what I intend to study,” but we would have cohort meetings, and there was such a diversity of perspective and experiences in the room. It was incredibly beneficial to me, and I loved that part of it, which I didn’t really suspect going in.

You obviously didn’t just look at rankings and you didn’t just look at the curriculum, you looked at a lot of things. [10:50]Yeah. Yeah.

What did you like most about your experience? Well, I guess you said it was the people, or am I putting words in your mouth? [10:59]It was the people. No. It was the people. Also, I found myself a couple of times over my time at the graduate school of education really surprised by how much I would learn in a particular class and how I could apply it outside of where I was thinking. One example, for anyone who I knew of who went to the grad school of ed after me, I was like, “Oh, you have to take this class.” It was a negotiations class, and the professors were from the law school. They came from the program on negotiation, and I was like, “This sounds interesting, and I’m not really sure exactly how this fits, but I think it will.” I took it and I was like, “I can use this everywhere and in everything.”

To really think about, for me, in terms of community and the programs that I was building, the people I was working with, whether that was external organizations, internal organizations at Harvard, students, really getting a good feel of the interaction of all of that and how negotiation is a part of our lives all the time, whether it’s like, “Where do you want to go to dinner?” “I don’t know. Where do you want to go to dinner?” or like, “I know where I want to go to dinner. Let me jump first to all the actual professional work that I did.” I ended up using it everywhere, and that surprised me at the time, but I still look back on it. I mean, that was a great class. There were other surprises like that, too. I loved that, in my graduate work, I was surprised in a really positive way.

What could have been improved? [12:45]I think that they have actually done this, but it’s a fast program. It’s a one-year program. I don’t know if this would be an improvement or if it’s just a selfish request. I’m like, “Oh, it could be longer.”

Sometimes, one year is really nice because if you’re taking a break from work, then you only have to take a leave of absence for a year. It’s a year versus two years or three years, which can be harder, depending on where you are in your career. It’s really nice in that way, but also I’m like, “Oh, I want to keep taking classes!”

Let’s move forward a little bit in your career. You also worked for quite a bit of time at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government. Did you detect any common thread or characteristic among the students? It doesn’t have to be one. It can be more than one. [13:23]The way that I always described when people ask me what I did, I would say that I get to work with really smart young people who know that they want to do good in the world and are figuring out what that looks like for them. It was all students who were interested in politics and public service, so they have some kind of thread that they’re tugging on and figuring out exactly where that leads, what does it actually look like to work in policy or to work in political journalism or to work abroad at an NGO. If you’re into computer science, that’s great. That’s also available in government. It’s available in the private sector. There’s civic tech. There’s all these different ways that that interest can be applied.

Working with students as they worked it out for themselves, I was like, “Oh, I really like this part of it, but I didn’t like this and I like that,” but the through line for everyone was I know what I want to do. I know I want to do some kind of good, and I’m figuring out what that looks like for myself, and getting to be a part of that was a real privilege.

Like social ROI. [14:49]Yeah.

For Harvard Kennedy School, I guess, not that they don’t have leadership and impact, I’m sure they have that, too, but it’s this drive for social good. [15:31]Yeah, and in terms of leadership and impact, where do you want to have that leadership and impact, right? It’s a specific sector. It’s in the public sector in some way. Part of my role at Harvard with the students I worked with, it wasn’t always expanding, but it was being inclusive of the entire ecosystem of what makes up politics and public service because it is certainly federal, state, local, international government, and it’s also all of the organizations that work in and around government, like I mentioned, political journalism and advocacy organizations.

Also, it’s business. [16:17]Yeah. Yeah, completely.

It’s business. It’s government. It’s not-for-profits. It’s for-profits. [16:21]Yeah, and it’s how you approach it and with what goal. They don’t have to be mutually exclusive, but, with all the students that I worked with, that was a driving force.

Now, you managed highly selective political and public service summer programs and internships. What was the key for applicants gaining acceptance to these programs? I mean, there might be more than one key, frankly. It might be different buckets or different keys for certain buckets, but is it possible to generalize? [16:35]In broad strokes, yes, definitely. I would say two things, authenticity and also demonstration of knowledge. What I mean by that is one of the programs that I ran, students could have… There were a hundred different organizations that we worked with, and students could apply to work with two. They would create unique applications for each of them and submit them. They’d be considered separately, but they could only apply to two.

I was on the backend and looking at a thousand applications every year. It would be really obvious who picked an organization because they had heard of the name and who picked an organization because they recognized that they wanted to do that work, and so sometimes that might be like I recognize the organization’s name, and it might be an environmental firm, but the particular opportunity was in the communications department. That’s a specific department within an organization and, if you’re just telling me your environmental background, that’s great. I also want to hear why communications? Why is environmental communications important, because scientific communications are incredibly important, but I need to know that you understand what this is.

That’s the knowledge piece, and then authenticity, just bringing your full self and not trying, not over-inflating, not downplaying, just being… I actually think that the first piece, the information, leads to authenticity. If you really understand what you’re applying to, you understand why, and then you get to be fully authentic, fully yourself, and it comes through in the application. If you don’t really know what you’re applying to and it’s really just because of a name, it shows. You can read it in an application. It’s just like the excitement’s not there in the same way.

As you were talking, I was thinking, if you have that knowledge, you’ll also have the authenticity because you won’t have to fake it. [18:58]Exactly.

I’ll never forget the time I was talking with a prospective client, and he wanted to apply to London. He wanted to apply to, I think, INSEAD or HEC, and I was asking him why, and I just wasn’t getting any kind of substantive answer, and finally he said, “Well, my girlfriend is there,” and I said, “Well, that’s an authentic answer.” That’s okay as an addition to the programmatic answers and reasons – the professional reasons, the educational reasons. He said, “My girlfriend lives there.” That’s fine, but those other reasons have to be there also. His interest didn’t align. [19:14]Yeah, you can tell. Right?

You can just tell. Exactly. When you were at Kennedy, now, you mentioned this drive for social good, did you also see the alignment and logical reasoning among the students there? [20:02]For graduate students, yes. I think that that is part of why they were at the Kennedy School of Government. They had thought through that process. For the undergraduates that I worked with, they were on that path. They were gathering information for themselves so that they could make that authentic choice of like, “I explored this. I thought I would like it. It turns out I don’t.” That’s great.

That’s fine. [20:42]I’m all for making that decision.

Yeah, because once you start saying, “I know I don’t like this,” that’s great. There is decision fatigue in terms of what you want to do with graduate school, with your life. In terms of your career decision, fatigue is readily available, so if you can eliminate things, that is also great news because any folks may want something else.

If you can eliminate it fairly early on, if you can eliminate it, it’s fantastic. [21:07]Yeah. Yeah, and then when you do get to the thing, “This is what I want to do,” it’s an authentic… You can say it with confidence and with authenticity.

Right. It’s a really eureka moment. [21:20]Right. What advice would you have for someone interested in pursuing graduate education either in education or in public service or government or some of the areas that you have worked in? Again, the answer doesn’t have to be the same for all of them because they’re different fields.

Yeah. I mean, my first response is like, “Great. Tell me why,” for any of them. Great. Tell me why, and I’m not asking you to convince me. I just want to hear. Actually, in this case, it’s not even that I want to hear. I could hear your tone without the words and get a feel for your answer of like, “Are you excited? Are you just excited like ‘I know I want to do this?’ or is this like ‘I guess I have to go to grad school because it’s the next thing that I do?'” Right?

Because I’m on the treadmill. [22:14]Right. Exactly, so figuring out why for you, and it doesn’t have to be the same for each person. If what excites you is, “Everybody in my family is an attorney, and I’ve seen people work in law, and I love it. They love it. I’m excited,” I’m like, “Great. Great. If that is genuinely exciting to you, great,” or if it’s like, “Nobody in my family has ever gone to law school, and I think I could do real good,” the content of the answer matters less than the authenticity of it, and so for anyone who’s thinking about graduate school, ask yourself why. It’s okay if it’s just a feeling at first, but take some time and really figure out why and why now.

For me, I mean, I took a long time off between undergraduate and graduate school, and I’m so glad that I did. It gave me the opportunity to have confidence that this was the right choice for me to be further in my career so that I applied the information and the knowledge that I gained in a way that was different than I would’ve fresh out of undergraduate. That’s not always the case, right? I needed that time for myself. If someone had asked me Why grad school now when I was 25, I would’ve been like, “I don’t know, because I don’t have anything else. I don’t have a better answer of what to do, so I guess I’ll do this,” whereas when I actually went back to grad school, I was like, “I am excited to take this learning and apply it in my professional life. I’m excited to be back in the classroom. I’m excited to be exchanging ideas with my peers and with professors and with teaching fellows. I am excited to go back into that environment.”

For me, that wouldn’t have been true earlier, so taking that time was important, so why and also why now?

A lot of applicants I know, and their parents, maybe even more than the applicants, are very concerned that, if they stop going to school, they won’t go back. That’s not a good reason to go to school, by the way. [24:05]It’s not great.

It’s a bad reason to continue in school, but that is a very common concern. Did you have that concern when you were taking the break or yeah? [24:20]Yes. Yes, I did, and I was also like, “Oh, gosh, if I don’t go soon, I have to take a standardized test,” and I haven’t taken a standardized test or any test in a very long time. The most intimidating part for me was the standardized test, I think. It was also for me the part that I felt like I had the least control over. I knew what I wanted to study. I knew why. I knew why this school. I had answers to those and-

The statement of purpose- [25:04]… the GRE.

Yeah. I was like, “Oh, I know this. I know who I want to work with. I know what I’m excited about.” In the GRE, I was like, “It’s been over 10 years since I took a standardized test.” I don’t even… I know I have to fill it… Did Scantrons even look the same? They don’t. They didn’t. By the way, it was now on a computer, and I had to go to a building. It was all different, and that to me was very intimidating, so, yes, I can understand that fear and, also, I went back. The thing that was the most scary was fine. It was fine. I got over it. I took the test. I got in. My verbal score was definitely better than my math score, but I knew that was going to be the case going in.

It was okay also because I had my purpose. I knew why I wanted to go back and, therefore, yes, the standardized test was the most intimidating part, and that was fine. It was what it was. I studied for it. I took some practice tests. I went to coffee shops and tried to focus in a different way in a new environment to prepare for a new test environment, and then it was a couple-hour test, and it was over.

Now, you also have a diversity, equity and inclusion certificate from Cornell University. It’s one of the questions I see more frequently, and I’m sure many people have. If applicants are asked a DEI question, how can they approach it if they are not from an underrepresented group? [26:29]Yeah. For me, diversity, equity and inclusion, it should not only be work that is done by people in underrepresented groups. That’s not diversity, equity and inclusion. Diversity, equity and inclusion is all of us. It is everyone, and so, if you are from an underrepresented group, what does that mean to you? If you have some kind of privilege, what do you do with it? How do you use that to benefit not just yourself? How do you use your voice or whatever power that you have in a way that is in service of diversity, equity and inclusion?

In other words, it’d be about helping or being more inclusive. [27:34]Yeah. I mean, first, what does diversity, equity and inclusion mean to the applicant? Much like community, there’s not like, “Here’s what this means,” so think about what it exactly means.

I was thinking of asking you how would you define community, but I decided I wouldn’t. [27:54]Appreciate that. I’ll draw you a picture of it.

What does diversity, equity and inclusion mean to you as an individual, as the applicant, and then what does that mean in this context, what are you bringing to this environment because schools think about their classes holistically? It’s individuals, but it’s also what does this picture… Like those pinpoint paintings, yes, it’s that, but then it’s also-

Impressionist. [28:29]Yes, thank you, an impressionist painting. You’ve got this one little area that you can’t tell what it is, but then when you look at the whole thing, they’re looking at both, and so what does it mean for you as an individual and then how does that play with the entire group of people? People are going to answer that differently, and I think that if it is from an authentic place and really is about diversity, equity and inclusion, those are three different words, diversity, equity, and inclusion, and you’re writing from that standpoint, that’s what you want to be doing. If you’re from a group that is not underrepresented, think about those two questions. What does diversity, equity and inclusion mean to you, and how does that look in this environment in terms of your graduate school?

What would you have liked me to ask you? What would you like listeners to know? [29:24]One of the favorite questions I ever got in an interview, and I’m going to say this to you, and then I just thought to myself, “I don’t have a great answer for this right now,” but I’m going to say it to you anyway because it was authentically what came to mind. I was in an interview and the last question they asked was, “What are you reading right now?” It was during the pandemic, and I was like, “Oh, my gosh, what am I reading right now?” It was like probably fall 2020. It was early. I had been reading about a 20-book mystery series, and I was like, “Okay, here’s my answer,” and I told them. I was like, “I love to read, and also, right now, at this point in my life, I’m reading a lot of escapist literature to really just take myself out of where I am now.”

The pandemic. [30:21]Exactly, the pandemic, but I’ve always thought that that was just a great question. I was nervous giving it in a professional context. Also, I was like, “Well, this is actually what I’m reading,” and if I’m going to bring my whole self to this question-and-answer, that’s actually what I’m reading, what I’m doing, and that’s okay and, to tie this back, it actually sparked a great conversation with the person who I was in the event with. They were like, oh, my gosh, I’ve been blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I think that it goes back to if you understand yourself and where you’re coming from, it comes through. If I had been nervous and been like, “Oh, gosh, I really don’t want to tell you,” or if I had just been like, “Well, shoot, here we go. This is my answer.”

What are you reading now? [31:48]I just started a book last night. It’s called Night Train to Lisbon. I’m about five pages in, so I’m not super sure what it’s about, but I’m going on a trip to Portugal in a couple of months. It’s fiction, but I really enjoy exploring places through location, and so if someone said it was a good book about Portugal, and I was like, “Okay.”

It’s pretty dense so far. I think the person who wrote it was also a philosopher, so we’ll see how that plays out. What are you reading right now?

Well, right now, I’m in the middle of a few things. In terms of right now, I’m reading a book called The Coddling of the American Mind, which I’m actually enjoying. I’m finding it a very interesting book. I am, however, in the middle of a series of historical novels. I like history and historical novels in particular, and the series is called After Dunkirk.

Sadie, it’s been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for joining me today. [32:23]Relevant Links:

• Fitting In and Standing Out: The paradox at the heart of admissions – free guide
• Watch the full episode on YouTube
• Sadie Polen
• Sadie Polen Contact Me page

Relevant Shows:

• The Questions You SHOULD Be Asking – ANSWERED! [Episode 500]
• How to Write a Great Statement of Purpose [Episode 473]
• How to Respond to a Rejection [Episode 422]
• How to Apply Successfully to Grad School Despite a Low GPA [Episode 458]
• Empowering International Students with the Financing for Grad Ed [Episode 475]
• Harvard Kennedy School: An Interview with Admissions Director Matt Clemons [Episode 320]

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The post It’s All About Authenticity and Community in Graduate Admissions [Episode 518] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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Dr. Valerie Wherley, Accepted consultant and past Assistant Dean of Student Affairs and Career Development at William Beaumont School of Medicine, and former Director of Pre-Health Advisement and Director of the Pre-Health Postbac Certificate Program at Sacred Heart University, speaks in depth about the path to becoming a physician assistant. [Show Summary]Healthcare is a field that is growing, but what areas are really booming? According to US News citing Bureau of Labor Statics’ projections, between 2021 and 2031 “an estimated 38,400 jobs should open up” for physician assistants. Sound good? Let’s learn more about becoming a physician assistant.

Interview with Dr. Valerie Wherley, Accepted consultant. Dr. Wherley earned her BS and MS at the University of Maine in kinesiology and her PhD in higher education administration from the University of Connecticut. [Show Notes]Welcome to the 515th episode of AdmissionsStraight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. This interview is all about getting accepted to PA school and giving you tips on how you can do it. In addition to listening to today’s interview, I invite you to download Accepted’s free guide, 10 Tips For Acceptance to a Physician Assistant Program. Grab your free guide for advice on selecting the best PA programs for you, writing your personal statement, interviewing effectively and simply presenting the best application you possibly can.

Over the last 20 years, she has served as the Assistant Dean of Student Affairs and Career Development at William Beaumont School of Medicine, director of pre-health post-bacc certificate program at Sacred Heart University, and the director of the pre-health advisement also at Sacred Heart University. In those roles and before joining Accepted earlier this year, she advised thousands of students in the following pre-health tracks: pre-med, pre-PA, pre-vet, pre-dental, pre-pharmacy, pre-PT, pre-OT, pre-accelerated nursing and pre-optometry, as well as applicants to master’s programs in exercise science, biomedical sciences, occupational therapy, speech language pathology, athletic training, public health, and applied nutrition. That’s her breadth. Right now, we’re going to go in depth and we’re going to focus on physician assistant admissions.

Dr. Wherley, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [2:32]Thank you for having me.

What do physician assistants do? [2:36]Sure. Great question. So a physician assistant or PA, which I may use during this podcast is a licensed medical professional, first and foremost, who holds an advanced degree beyond their undergrad, which is typically a master’s degree, and they’re licensed to provide direct patient care. So if you’ve ever received care from a PA, it’s important to know they are fully qualified and fully trained, and their scope of practice really encompasses quite a bit. And so their scope of practice starts with the ability to take medical histories, to conduct physical exams, to diagnose and treat illnesses.

They can also develop treatment plans and order and interpret tests. They can prescribe medication, which sometimes people may or may not know. They can counsel on preventative care, they can perform certain procedures that’s very specific. They can assist in surgeries. They are not the primary care provider in surgeries, but they can assist. They can make rounds in hospitals and nursing homes, and they can also do clinical research. So while that is a long list of their scope of practice, I’m sure it’s not exhaustive, but PAs are certainly a team player and a welcome provider on a healthcare team.

What are some of the restrictions on what they can do? [4:20]Well, in most states, PAs do not operate or practice, and by I say operate, I mean independently practice. PAs are restricted to be practicing under the supervision of a physician, an MD typically, and again, that’s in most states. And one of my specific things that I noted is they can assist in surgery. So you will not find PAs being the primary care provider in performing surgery again, independently.

What are some of the other differences in actual responsibilities and required education between let’s say a physician assistant and a physician? [4:58]So I covered the responsibilities of a PA, and I’ll talk about education and then I’ll go into a very specific thing about the PA title if I can, because that’s very important to the profession, and I want to make sure I recognize that very clearly. So while MDs and DOs can work independently, the required education for MDs and DOs is of course, they will complete an undergraduate degree, which will take somewhere between three and four years, depending on if they’re an accelerated undergraduate curriculum. And then they’ll go to medical school for an additional four years, and then they will further go into a residency program for somewhere between three to seven years. So you can add up all of those years of education and also the finances and the financial support that it would take to get through all of those years of education. PA school is very different.

So potential PA students can think about going to their undergraduate degree for, again, three to four years. And then a PA degree is a master’s program that usually is completed in somewhere between 24 and 27 months and at the end of a PA program, they sit for their licensing degree and then they are ready to go to work. So depending on a student’s thoughts about how quickly they want to become clinically relevant and able to get into the workforce, what is their financial support and how many years do they want to be in their education, PA school or MD school could be the path for them. Now, I do want to make a note about the title of physician assistant. So in 2021, the governing body did vote and say, we want to officially change the title from “physician assistant” to “physician associate.” So the official title of this clinical practitioner is “physician associate”. So the moniker is still PA, right?

And the reason for that was they wanted to be very clear that these healthcare practitioners don’t simply assist physicians.

They’re associates, they’re colleagues. [7:35]Right. So they are associates, they are colleagues, they are a fully vetted member of the healthcare team. Now, further in the research, when you look at some of these PA websites, they do say, and I quote, “PAs should continue to use physician assistant as their legal title because changing the entire moniker over to physician associate will take time.” So in clinical practice, you will still see them referring to themselves as physicians assistants.

When did the change take place? [8:05]I believe it was May of 2021.

Yeah, when the vote happened. But of course, to see it in fully vetted practice is just going to take time.

Another, I think path that physician associates or assistants are sometimes compared with would be nurse practitioner. [8:16]Correct.

What are some of the differences there? I think the difference between nurse and PAs is much clearer, but what about a nurse practitioner? I mean, they can see patients. [8:30]True. So it’s also a very good question. So I’ll go back to the training of a PA and I’ll get a little bit more specific about the training of PAs. So again, PAs will complete a master’s degree and they will complete 2000 hours of clinical training. And that 2000 hours is standard for the over 300 accredited PA programs that exist.

And that’s part of their training, that 2000 hours is part of the program or training as a prior to? [9:09]Nope, as part of their clinical training. So PA programs will have a didactic component, and that’s the classroom work. And then they will have a clinical component. And that clinical component is 2000 hours of training.

That’s roughly a year. [9:26]Yeah, correct. So their 2000 hours of clinical training has a wide breadth of clinical rotations. And I am going to read these because I don’t have them memorized, but their clinical training will be in family medicine, internal medicine, general surgery, pediatrics, OB-GYN, emergency medicine and psychiatry. So they get training and exposure in all of those clinical areas. So we’ll note that. I’ll move over to nurse practitioners. So nurse practitioners must complete a master’s degree or a doctoral degree depending on their program. And they’re specifically trained in the advanced practice of nursing, which I’ll talk about a little bit more. Students in NP school complete 1000 hours of supervised clinical training.

That’s compared to the 2000 hours for PA, and they’re trained in a chosen health population focus area. So this differs from the clinical hours that I just talked about in PA school. So their focus area tends to be in these domains, family, adult or gerontology, neonatal, pediatrics, women’s health, psychiatry or mental health. So their concentration of clinical work tends to be a little bit more focused. And the PA clinical hours, as you can see, really mirrors medical clinical rotations.

It seems like the nurse practitioner’s focus is more as you put it on different communities of patients. [11:04]True.

And the PA is more like medical treatment options or systems. [11:12]Absolutely. Now two more notes about this. In 22 states, nurse practitioners have approved “full” practice. I put “full” in quotes and full practice for NPs in those states allows nurse practitioners to prescribe, diagnose, and treat patients without physician oversight. So if you are a student who lives in one of those 22 states and you are looking to practice clinically and autonomously without going to medical school and you’re looking for a different path, nurse practitioner might be the way you want to go because you have full autonomy to prescribe, diagnose and treat patients. The other thing PA schools or a PA training allows students to do, and PA schools really have a lot of pride in this is something called lateral mobility. Lateral mobility in the PA profession means that students have the ability to change their specialty area at different points in their career.

So once a student gets out of their PA program and they’re trained as a generalist, then once they start working, they can subspecialize as a surgical PA and they can work as a surgical PA for a period of time. That’s sort of on the job training. And then if they decide that they want to move laterally in the PA field, then they could change jobs and subspecialize as a pediatric PA. So that lateral mobility for some students is very appealing because they think, Hey, I might want to change my specialty in 10 years or in 15 years. And as we know in the world of medicine, once you hang your hat on a specialty area, that’s your work.

Are there different types of physician assistant programs or perhaps a better question will be what are some of the different types of physician assistant programs, associate programs, I should say? [13:19]This is a really good question because oftentimes I think that some PA students just think I’m going to apply to all PA schools because they all are created equal. So right now, prospective PA students can choose from over 300 accredited PA programs that are in the United States, and most of these programs take between 24 and 27 months. But there are some differences between these programs that I would just like to highlight. There are 11 PA programs in the country that are either online or hybrid. So the didactic component would be online or have a combination between online and then come to campus at some points. And then the clinical component, of course would be in person. So that’s one option to consider depending on who you are and what your learning style is like.

Some schools use traditional lecture lab models for their didactic component and other schools use case-based learning. So just lots and lots of case studies to bring this content alive and to enlighten students instead of traditional lectures. So if you are more a case-based learning style student, you want to look for a program that uses those case-based learning models. Some schools offer interprofessional learning with other healthcare students on the premises. So PA students go into the cadaver lab with the pre-med students and with the nursing students and offer lots of this interprofessional learning, which I personally think is quite nice.

I think the University of Iowa does that, doesn’t it? [15:08]Yeah, potentially. So I think it’s great to have a PA student right next to a medical student, right next to a nursing student, potentially right next to a dental student all looking at the same cadaver and really trying to figure things out. Now, while some PA schools and curriculum don’t offer clinical exposure until year two, there are some programs out there that offer early clinical exposure, which again, I think brings the didactic curriculum to life. And so I would suggest look for those programs out there that offer early clinical exposure. And then my last point would be there’s a difference between programs out there that are connected with a large teaching hospital or that are more community-based medicine, and that would offer students different exposure to access to procedures or things like emergency medicine or rural medicine. So it’s really what are you looking for in your PA school curriculum.

What should they be looking for? [16:09]I think it depends on their vision of what kind of practitioner they want to become. So if they’re looking for a really urban sort of based environment and they think that they might want to work in surgery or critical care or emergency based medicine, they might want to look to be connected with a large teaching hospital that would give them exposure to a wide variety of patients. And if they’re really looking for a more rural setting and providing care to patients who may not get care otherwise, they would be looking for a community-based medicine program.

What would be some other things that they should be considering? [17:15]I think the other things that students should consider would be what I talk to students about, whether they’re PA students or pre-med students or pre-dental students and those are things like the mission statement of the school. Does it resonate with you? School fit, size of the school, size of the cohort that you might be joining, the location of the school. Certainly going to an open house of the school and hearing the dean speak, hear other students speak, taking a tour of the campus and a tour of the facility to see if you could envision yourself being there and being part of the community and feeling like it’s a good overall fit for you.

What should PA applicants have in their academic background before they apply? We’ll get to the experiential qualifications in a second. [17:15]Yes. Academically, there tends to be a general list of prerequisites that PA students should be aware of. However, schools vary school by school in terms of specific recommendations. So it’s always suggested that you’re checking with the school’s website to make sure you’re covering your prerequisites very specifically. But in general, pre-PA students need to take anatomy and physiology, typically a full year. Biology and chemistry, usually organic chemistry and then a few upper level classes like biochemistry and microbiology are usually recommended. English composition and or writing, usually two semesters are necessary on your transcript. One or two semesters of psychology, statistics or biostatistics. And then two specific courses I’m seeing required by more PA schools are genetics and medical terminology.

What about experientially? Getting into a PA program is not easy. [19:28]So experientially is the point that really differentiates my pre-PA applicants, usually from my med school applicants. And the reason why is the PA curriculum is abbreviated. So it is a master’s program and it is completed in 27 months. And what PA schools are expecting is that when students walk in the door, they have had a large number of patient care hours and healthcare experience, which has provided a foundation of knowledge that will prepare them for this rigorous PA school curriculum. So having said that, a data point that I found said the average number of direct patient contact hours PA matriculates had on their application last year was 3000.

That’s a year and a half of full-time work. [20:38]Correct. Right. So some undergrads are able to balance being an undergrad student and also acquiring these direct patient care hours. More often than not, pre-PA students require a gap year to get this work done. So you graduate, you take a gap year, and you get your direct patient care experience, and then you’re applying to PA school. So actually the average age of students who are applying to PA school is 26.

I think the average for med school is 24, isn’t it? [21:13]I think so. I think so. And so sometimes students feel like they are falling behind because they still have to acquire this direct patient care experience. But the truth is everybody is in the same situation where they’re out there just working and gaining this valuable experience. So direct patient care is anytime a student is working and providing direct patient contact with somebody in need. So students often gain this experience by working as a paramedic, an EMT, an athletic trainer, a CNA, a medical assistant who’s really providing care and not doing clerical work.

Some RNs will work as an RN and then apply to medical PA school. So all of their hours working as an RN count as direct patient care. So there’s a fairly long list of sort of what, quote unquote, ‘counts’ as direct patients.

What about scribe? [22:25]Medical scribing tends to be this very gray area. It seems like maybe over 50% of PA schools out there that I am aware of will count scribing as direct patient care and the other 50% do not. But on the CASPA application, so the CASPA application is the official application for PA school, and CASPA stands for Centralized Application Service For Physician Assistant, still Assistant.

There are two different categories among the extracurricular experiences where students are available to add, there is direct patient care where students can chronicle, and there’s also healthcare experience. So healthcare experience is where you have worked in a healthcare environment, but the experience is not directly involving patient care. So if you apply to a school that does not consider medical scribing patient care experience, you’re allowed to put it in this other bucket called healthcare experience. So it will sort of count in a holistic application review.

How many programs do students typically apply to? Or is there a typical? [23:46]I don’t know if there is a typical If there is, I’m not aware of it.

What would you recommend to somebody who’s reasonably competitive? [23:59]I would recommend anywhere between 10 and 15.

Should PA applicants take the MCAT, the GRE or the new kid on the block, the PA-CAT? [24:09]Yes. Great question. So as I’ve mentioned, there are 300… Oh, I think a little over 300 accredited PA programs. The last that I knew, just a few over 100 do not require the GRE.

Do they not require any test or just not require the GRE? [24:32]They do not require any test. Most do not accept the MCAT.

So there’s usually no reason for PA students to be embarking on the MCAT and less than 20 schools at this point in time require the PA-CAT.

So there is a list of schools out there that are requiring the PA-CAT. I think we are going to see that number grow year to year to year, but right now we’re under 20. But as that PA-CAT, for those of you who might be new to this information, the PA-CAT is a newer standardized test. It was beta tested maybe two years ago. And as we see it become more reliable and more data comes out about its validity, I believe we are going to see more PA schools accepting it as a standardized test and requiring it.

Do you see the PA-CAT and the GRE kind of coexisting where students will be able to choose which one to take, or do you see one ultimately winning out? [25:46]I predict that the PA-CAT will become the new standardized measure and the GRE will become obsolete.

The PA-CAT is based on questions pulled from prerequisite courses required of PA students. So it seems to be more linear in terms of questions that are being asked based on foundational knowledge that students should have, where the GRE seems to be much more broad and not linearly correlated with their foundational content knowledge.

In that regard, I assume that the P-CAT is much more like the MCAT, the PA-CAT rather. [26:37]Correct. Correct. And so I should say, in an effort of full disclosure, I was a part of the PA-CAT development team where I was an anatomy and physiology expert, and I helped write some of the content questions for A&P.

What is a competitive GPA, either number or range for PA programs? [27:05]Sure. So some PA programs just look at cumulative GPA, but in order to answer this question thoroughly, I wanted to say PA programs can look at and evaluate up to four different GPAs overall GPA, a science GPA, a non-science GPA, and then what’s called a BCP GPA, which I will explain.

So an overall GPA is your cumulative GPA and a competitive cumulative GPA for PA school is a 3.6 in that range. And of course there’s always a standard deviation.

Science GPA would be the GPA of every single science class you’ve ever taken as an undergrad. And for PA school, competitive science GPA is about a 3.5, and I’m pulling these GPAs from successful matriculates from last year. Non-science GPA is any class you took as an undergrad, which was not science-based. So your English, your psychology, your sociology, your anthropology, and that competitive GPA is a 3.6. Your BCP GPA, that’s your biology, your chemistry, and your physics. Just those three classes, lecture and lab. And that competitive GPA would be a 3.5.

But no M in there. No math. [28:34]No math.

Does the CASPA application require activity descriptions and/or personal statements? And what are the schools looking for with these materials? [28:42]Sure. So CASPA offers the opportunity to write several different items in terms of activity descriptions, leadership, volunteer, just to name a few. But the big two, as I mentioned in one of my prior answers are healthcare experience and patient care experience. This is really the opportunity for pre-PA students to demonstrate that they have done the work, they’ve had exposure to the field, they understand what it means to be part of a healthcare team. And writing these descriptions very clearly about skills acquired and understanding of the process of your clinical work is very critical. And this could really help your application shine. So again, healthcare experience is paid and unpaid work in a health or health related field, but it is when you are not directly responsible for a patient’s care.

So you could be filling prescriptions, delivering food to patients rooms, transporting patients in a hospital, and you could be doing some record keeping in an office setting. But that is healthcare work. Direct patient care is very different. And so some PA schools will have on their website, we require X number of hours of paid direct patient care, and they’ll be very, very strict about that number. And that will vary based on schools. So this is where you could be directing a course of treatment, taking vitals, working as an EMT, a phlebotomist, a physical therapy aid. It looks very good if you have some type of certification to back up this clinical work.

I guess the main thing the schools are looking for with the descriptions in the primary application is just evidence that you know what you’re getting into, and this is really a commitment… That you’re making this commitment with good reason. [30:56]Absolutely.

Based on your personal experience. [31:11]It’s the exposure to healthcare. It’s the acquisition of new knowledge and new clinical skills. And the other thing is schools want to know that you are coming to PA school because you want to be a PA for the scope of practice of a PA, and that it is not your plan B because you didn’t get into medical school.

It’s so important, and I have counseled students on this before, maybe who didn’t have a positive application cycle for medical school. Well, maybe I’ll just go to PA school and PA admissions committees have been doing this for a long time and they will rake through an application where it is a fallback plan for medical school.

That’s a great warning too. Now, do PA programs have secondary applications as medical schools do? And what is the difference between the CASPA and the primary and the secondaries for PAs? [32:08]Sure. So CASPA, as we’ve talked about, is the primary application. This will be the application where you submit everything from your biographical information, all of your academic transcripts, your activity descriptions, your personal statement, which I think I have to talk about, and your letters of recommendation. And your secondaries, yes, some schools will have secondary essays or secondary questions attached to their specific application. Secondary essay questions, sometimes they’re just called supplementals, can be an extra essay question asked by an individual PA program. Oftentimes there is a question related directly to the school, such as why are you choosing our school? Why are you choosing our PA program? What makes you particularly interested in our curriculum? Why did you apply to our program? You can think of these supplementals or secondary essay questions as a precursor to an in-person interview. It’s a question that they want to hear you answer or see you answer in writing prior to a face-to-face interview. So I’ll pause here and go back to the question about the personal statement.

So CASPA does require a personal statement. At this time, the length of it is 5,000 characters including spaces. So at first you think, oh, I have a lot of room to write. And then when students start writing, they go, oh, I don’t have very much room to write. And the question for the past couple of years has always been, why PA? And it’s short and sweet into the point and it ends up being one of the most difficult questions to answer.

Well, that kind of gets back to your warning a few minutes ago. [34:22]That’s right. So of course some of the general guidelines are this is your opportunity to write in a narrative fashion, not a scientific paper, not your opportunity to rehash your CV. It’s not your opportunity to retell the things that are already in your activity descriptions. And it’s really the opportunity to tell your story how you determined that PA is the right fit for you as a future healthcare practitioner.

I sometimes say regarding med school applicants that the primary application is about your fitness to be a physician and the secondary application is about your fit with a specific program. Would you say that’s true with PA programs as well? [34:57]I think that’s very true. I think that’s very true. I think those secondaries, as I’ve said, and as you indicated, are school specific. So they could be a specific question about the curriculum or about the region or about the institution itself. And they’d really like to hear something specific that has intrigued you. Why are you applying to their program? And they want to know, are you a student that is just applying to 50 programs and you’re hoping something will hit? So you do have to make it very specific.

Are there some generalities that you can give on about PA interviews? [36:00]PA interviews, the feedback that I have heard over time is they have changed during sort of this age of COVID.

And maybe it’s true for other disciplines as well, but pre-COVID PA interviews, my students were telling me I’m not part of an admissions committee, but my students were telling me, were very formal and sort of very intimidating. Through COVID with a lot of the online interviewing formats, my students have found them to be quite conversational with admissions committees members focusing their questions on students’ clinical experiences for sure. And with questions regarding maybe something like describe a patient interaction that was very impactful, certainly questions regarding an ethical situation that maybe was difficult for the student and how he, she, or them handled it. Questions about working together in groups and then asking them to verbalize, what do you know about the PA profession? Do you know about the history? Do you know how it came to be? And why did you choose PA? Why did you choose PA instead of medicine or nursing or any other healthcare member? Why PA for you? So be prepared in your interviews to answer any of those questions.

Great tips. Thank you. What are some of the common mistakes that you see PA applicants making? [36:06]Common mistakes would be either over inflating your roles and responsibilities in a patient care experience or a healthcare experience. And that’s number one. I would say number two, having a personal statement that does not truly answer the question why PA or is not compelling to answer the question why PA or number three, which we have not talked about, is not having any shadowing hours.

So not all schools have a requirement of shadowing, and some schools say there is no requirement to shadow a PA. I, in the work that I’ve done for all of these years, think that shadowing is critically important. I think that you need to at some point in your journey, shadow somebody who is doing the work that you think you want to do in your career. And I also think it’s important to shadow somebody in several different disciplines. So if you think you want to be a PA, I think it would be great to shadow a PA in internal medicine and then shadow an OB-GYN PA if you’re allowed to, and then shadow a surgical PA. Even if it’s just for 10 hours, 10 hours, 10 hours.

So you can see PAs who are doing different types of work in different types of settings. And so you understand lateral mobility like I talked about before. And then you can actually sit with the person that you’re shadowing and ask some questions, do you like what you’re doing? Do you like your scope of practice? What type of patients do you see? That will give you more information about this potential career that you have chosen and then that will give you some data to answer potential interview questions or even to put into your narrative of why PA. And so I think having no shadowing on your application is a real pitfall.

What do you wish I would’ve asked you? [40:23]Gee, Dr. Wherley, is there going to be growth in the PA profession?

Gee, Linda. Yes, there is. So the PA profession is this really wonderful market I highly encourage students to look at because according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, there is going to be tremendous growth for the PA profession. So for students who are looking to get into a healthcare related field and who don’t want to go through all of those years of medical school and don’t want to have that financial burden, want to get into the workforce quickly and want to know that they are employable after having a master’s degree, the PA profession is the right fit because the data says that this profession will increase 28% from 2021 to 2031.

The United States is just going to be looking for more and more PAs.

A physician shortage. [42:50]Right. The physician shortage and the healthcare market is looking for more workers. And with our aging population needing more healthcare, PAs are going to be needed. And so if you are someone who’s listening to this podcast and you’re thinking, I wasn’t really sure what track I might go down, strongly consider PA, physician associate.

Relevant Links:

• Dr. Valerie Wherley Bio
• Contact Dr Valerie Wherley so that she can help you apply
• 10 Tips For Acceptance to a Physician Assistant Program
• PA Application Package
• That PA Girl with Can’t-Miss Advice for Aspiring Physician Assistants

Related shows:

• How To Get Accepted To the University of Iowa’s PA Program [Episode 462]
• All About Duke’s Top-Ranked PA Program [Episode 416]
• An Inside Look at USC’s Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry [Episode 414]
• Yale’s Online PA Program: Is an Online Ivy League PA Program Too Good to Be True? [Episode 298]
• Andrea Benedict: Life as a Physician Assistant [Episode 234]

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Shortcuts to Key Insights from this Episode* An overview of both Georgetown’s MBA programs and the MS in Environmental and Sustainability Management or the ESM. * What distinguishes Georgetown’s program in Environment and Sustainability Management from other similar programs. * Where graduates of Georgetown’s MBA program and the MS-ESM program find jobs. * The types of academic backgrounds Georgetown is looking for in applicants to the MBA and MS-ESM programs. * What an interviewee can expect if they’re lucky enough to get an invitation. * A key piece of advice from Shelly Heinrich to all applicants. * A common – but avoidable mistake – seen on resumes.

Shelly Heinrich, Associate Dean for MBA and MS-ESM admissions, and Director of Marketing at Georgetown’s McDonough School of Business, discusses everything applicants need to know about getting into Georgetown McDonough’s MBA program. [Show Summary]Are you interested in sustainability? Also considering an MBA? Well Georgetown University’s McDonough School of Business offers and outstanding MBA program AND an MS in Environmental and Sustainability Management. And today’s interview is with the associate dean of admissions for both programs. Pull up a chair.

Interview with Shelly Heinrich, Associate Dean for MBA and MS-ESM admissions, and Director of Marketing at Georgetown’s McDonough School of Business. [Show Notes]Are you interested in sustainability? Are you also considering an MBA? Well, Georgetown University’s McDonough School of Business offers an outstanding MBA program and an MS in Environmental and Sustainable Management. And today’s interview is with the Associate Dean of Admissions for both programs. Pull up a chair.

Welcome to the 512th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Before we dive into today’s interview, I want to give you a gift, Accepted’s free download, Fitting In & Standing Out. This guide will help you navigate the paradox at the heart of admissions. Realize that you need to show in your application simultaneously that you fit in at your target schools, and that you stand out in the applicant pool.

It gives me great pleasure to have back on Admissions Straight Talk Shelly Heinrich, Associate Dean for MBA and MS-ESM admissions, and Director of Marketing at Georgetown’s McDonough School of Business. Shelly has been leading Georgetown’s admissions efforts since 2014 and became Associate Dean in 2017. She earned her BBA from Texas Christian University, her Master’s in Educational Administration from UT Austin, and her Executive MBA from Georgetown.

Shelly, welcome back to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:52]It’s wonderful to be back. Thanks, Linda, for having me.

Can you provide an overview of both Georgetown’s MBA programs and the MS in Environment and Sustainability Management or the ESM? [2:01]Yeah. Absolutely. I’ll start it with the MBA. The good news is our three MBAs are the same in that we have a full-time, a flex in-person for working professionals, and a flex online for working professionals.

They are all 54 credits. You get the same degree, and you have access to the same experience at Georgetown McDonough, so it makes it very easy to talk about. Full-time is 20 months, like a normal full-time two-year program would be, and then the two flex programs are anywhere between two-and-a-half years to five years. But you’re taking the same classes. You have the same core for the first half of the program, and then you get to choose from electives in the second half of the program.

At Georgetown, we don’t require you to choose a concentration. We really feel that you should customize based on what is of interest to you and/or really, what your skill gaps are. There are so many hats that we wear in our jobs today that may be strategy or marketing, or finance or budgeting. We want you to fill those skill gaps in the electives of your choosing. Very briefly, that is the nuts and bolts of the MBA programs. I should say that the flex online is newly launched, so we will be enrolling our first cohort this coming fall. And we’re really excited.

Moving now to the Master of Science and Environment and Sustainability Management. It is a lot of syllables, so we do shorten it to ESM, but we welcomed our first cohort this past fall. We launched it a year-and-a-half ago, and our first cohort of 45 students started in August. It is an 11-month program, 30 credits, and it’s an interdisciplinary academic program at the intersection of business and science. It’s very unique for Georgetown McDonough.

We’re actually partnering with the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences in this interdisciplinary format, which, for a university, is pretty unique. We’re really excited at the innovation in launching this degree. That’s very basic about the two programs.

One question we get a lot from applicants to part-time programs or to online programs, is the degree any different? Is there an asterisk after the MBA for the flex time or the part-time programs? Or is it just, you have a Master’s in Business Administration from Georgetown McDonough, whatever option you choose? [4:17]Yep, that is what your degree says, is MBA. Even if you did our Executive MBA, it just says MBA. Students can be assured that they’re getting the same rigorous coursework, classes, and professors. It’s not a diluted version of any of the MBAs that you do with us.

If someone is interested in a sustainability and management business degree, who should go for the MBA and just customize the program so that it’s focused on sustainability, and who should go for the MS-ESM? [5:00]This is one of the questions applicants really have to answer for themselves nowadays. You look back 20 years ago, it just used to be a degree. You went to business school, you got an MBA degree. Now, you have MBAs in all different flavors, and then you also have specialized master’s. The way to think about these two degrees is, specialized master’s are really good if you want to specialize in a certain topic. If it’s a certain function or industry area, you know for the short term or maybe even for the long term, that is what you want to do.

In a specialized ESM master’s, you know that you want to go into sustainability. You’ve decided upon that for your career, which is fantastic. I feel like sometimes some of us are still learning what we want to do even when we’re adults, but the classes are all going to center around that topic. The case studies that you would do, the group projects are going to be around that specialized topic. And you can guarantee that all the students in your class will all be interested in that same topic as well in a specialized master’s.

They’re typically shorter, so most specialized master’s degrees are a year or less. And therefore the cost, it reflects the shorter nature of the program. With an MBA degree, in most traditional two-year MBAs, you do a year of core courses, which are a breadth of topics. You do get exposed to a lot of different topic areas. And then typically, at least with Georgetown, in the last half of your program, you choose your electives. Someone at Georgetown could choose to do an MBA focusing on courses in sustainability. They can even actually get a certificate in sustainability at Georgetown through the MBA, and then participate in the various clubs related to sustainability.

This could be good for someone who thinks they maybe want to do sustainability, but maybe they’re not sure. And/or they want to leave the door open maybe three, five, seven years from now when they might want to pivot to something else. Because an MBA is that degree that can allow you to pivot long into the future, into another type of industry. It’s a little bit longer. Also, the cost reflects that, but it is a broader degree in scope.

What distinguishes Georgetown’s program in Environment and Sustainability Management from other similar programs? [7:41]When we were doing the research, I was on the taskforce to launch this program. When we were doing research of what other schools were out there that combined science knowledge plus business knowledge, we noticed that there were degree programs that were either housed only in an environment school, so they were in a school of environment, the school of science, or we noticed what we just talked about. They were in a business school where it was a business degree with a little bit of a flavor of environmental sustainability.

What we saw lacking was a university saying, “No, we want it to be almost equal.” We want to have half professors from the environment and science classes in their pedagogy and half professors from business coming together for this interdisciplinary approach. I think someone outside of the academic world may say, “Well, that’s a no-brainer to merge.” But in the university world, merging schools at an institution like Georgetown, it’s pretty innovative. And so that’s what we did.

We said we’re going to take experts in the field of business, experts in the field of science and environment, and put it together into a degree. You can look at the curriculum chart and see half classes in each discipline, and then some classes that were what we call interdisciplinary, where the topics are being combined. What that also does is it gives students the best of both worlds. In many cases, they get access to different events and clubs at the McDonough School of Business. They get access to different clubs at the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. They also get access to the Earth Commons.

We’re providing them more resources in many ways than had that degree only been housed in one school. It was a really exciting initiative. We didn’t know what to expect when we launched the degree, but in our first application round three months after launching, we had 100 applications and we had a total of four application rounds. It was really exciting to be a part of this growth at Georgetown.

How many students are in the ESM program, the MS-ESM? [9:54]We have 45, this first cohort. It was funny. Last year, we set out saying, “Okay, we’re going to try to get 40 students.” And then after our first round, we had 100 applications. And then throughout the next three rounds, more and more and more. We actually got to a room capacity constraint where we could have enrolled a larger class, but classrooms that we were scheduled to be housed in had a fireproof capacity. Honestly, that is why we limited it to 45, which seems silly, but that’s actually the reality of what happened.

Any plans to add on to the room or expand the class? [10:31]For this year, so far, we’re tracking ahead of last year, which is great. So we’ll see what happens in May. But I will say, in the future of this program, we may think of doing something for working professionals. Or we may think of doing something that’s more accessible virtually. But as of now, our goal is to keep the quality of the students high. And so I think for at least for this next year, we’ll probably keep it the same size.

You didn’t say it explicitly, it was implied that the MS-ESM is an in-residence program. [11:01]Yes, I should say that. It’s an in-person program. Classes are during the daytime hours. We do have students doing internships and working at about 20 hours a week, so you can still work part-time while in the program. For example, if you’re working at one of these large environmental organizations in DC and they allow you to scale back and go maybe only 20 hours a week, you could still do the program in person while working part-time.

It must be pretty rigorous though. [11:33]It is. Yeah. It’s a 30-credit, 11-month program, so it is rigorous.

Where are graduates of Georgetown’s, both its MBA program and its MS-ESM program, where are they finding jobs? [11:43]With the MBA program, we’re very similar to a lot of traditional programs where we have our top three students going into consulting, finance and technology. Georgetown’s MBA also has a lot of diversity outside of those top three. We have students going into real estate, nonprofit, entrepreneurship, global organizations as well. There’s a little bit more diversity in the pie, if you want to say that, in terms of our post-MBA career outcomes.

And then for ESM, I think what’s exciting is, we haven’t graduated our first class, so let’s see where they’re going. But I will say, the green economy, when we started researching this, the World Economic Forum produced these predictions of the amount of jobs that will be produced in the green economy by 2030. And it’s in the multi-millions. I think 24 million rings, don’t quote me, but I think 24 million.

I started looking at these jobs and all of your major Fortune 100, 500 for-profit companies, but then NGOs have some type of sustainability positions now, and it’s incredible. You look at major sports apparel companies or major hotel brands, major food companies, and they all have sustainability jobs. The interesting thing though is, there’s not a lot of programs, degree programs that are producing graduates with the skills yet for these jobs, and so that’s I think where Georgetown has filled quite a niche and gap there.

You’re really at the forefront then? [13:23]I’d like to think so, yes.

What kind of academic background are you looking for in applicants to both the programs, both the MBA and the MS-ESM? Much the same or somewhat different? [13:27]Well, I would say so for MBA, I would say for both programs, we need to see some level of quantitative ability. When I say quantitative, having some knowledge of statistical forces is going to give you a head start. That’s been, I think, some of the classes where when people come in varying level of statistics abilities, that it maybe isn’t the best classroom experience. If you can come in having some basic stats class, you’ve done it online, you’ve done it for credit, that’s going to give you an even playing field coming into both of the programs.

In terms of the majors that suit best, for an MBA, we have all different kinds of majors. I think maybe a third of people for an MBA come from a traditional business major. After that, it could be humanities, liberal arts, engineering, science, really all over the map. I think what we’ve seen for the ESM program is, we had about 40% come from some type of environmental or natural science background, which was a large chunk. And then the other 60% were very diverse, everything from economics to government, to business, humanities.

I just think by the nature of who would be attracted to this program, we’re going to have some people that came from an environment or science.

In terms of experience, specifically work experience, what do you expect, again, for the MBA programs as opposed to the MS-ESM? [15:00]For the MBA program, you have to have a minimum of two years at the time that you start the program. The average though, is typically between four to six years. That’s the average because that’s where employers say it’s the sweet spot when they come to hire. We have had students come in with 10 years work experience, but their career goals have to just be adjusted a little bit because they are going to be overqualified for some of the traditional MBA jobs. They’re going to have to be willing to do more just in time recruiting, one-off recruiting for the level that they’re qualified for.

Or perhaps they have their own business? [15:47]Yep. Exactly.

Or they have a job waiting for them? [15:50]Exactly. Or they’ve come out of the military and they’re looking to transition. That’s the age. For a specialized master’s degree, and in particular the ESM program, it’s skewing slightly younger. The average is just under four years of work experience versus an MBA, which is between four and six. We do allow people to come out of undergrad, right out of undergrad.

They do need to have significant internship or project experience in environment sustainability. They’ve got to be able to contribute in the classroom, and that’s going to come from a very engaged undergraduate experience. We have let some people right out of undergrad, but then we have people with 10 years of work experience, who perhaps 10 years ago, didn’t have any options for an environment or sustainability master’s because they weren’t there.

They’ve now come back to say, “I either have been working in this field and now want some formal education in it,” or, “I’m looking to pivot my field into this.” Yes, we have people of all different experiences. The one common thread is, they all have a passion for environment and sustainability, as you could imagine.

I noticed that tests are optional for the MS-ESM, and they are required, but waivers are available for the MBA. Why the difference, and is it really a difference? [17:11]That’s great. It’s one of these things like seven years or eight years ago, we wouldn’t have been asking this question at all.

But it’s very relevant today. For the ESM program, it is optional, and we say it’s optional because truly, it is. You don’t need to prove anything. You don’t need to show anything. If you already have the test, great. Submit it. Or, perhaps, if your GPA is lacking and/or you don’t have a lot of work experience that’s substantial, then maybe that standardized test could help elevate your profile. But it is strictly, strictly optional.

For the MBA program, this year, we have moved to a waiver process. Now, there’s two different waivers. For our full-time program, you actually have to apply for the waiver and be accepted or admitted with the waiver, before you can then apply for the program. There are certain criteria.

You have to apply for the waiver first. It’s a very short form to say, do you meet the GPA criteria? Do you meet the quantitative work experience? It’s a short Google form you fill out and then we will say, “Yep, the test has been waived for you.” And now you can submit the application without a test. The reason for that is, we want to be fair to applicants. The full-time program, we get a large volume of applications. It takes people a lot of time to go through the application process.

You have to prepare for the test. [18:57]Yeah. Exactly. And to write the essays and get the recommendations. We want to tell people right away, are you going to be eligible without a test or not? Because we don’t want to take your application fee, go through the whole process and then say, “You know what? You’re not eligible without a test, so you wasted your time.” We’d rather let them know upfront, save their time, save our time, and then move forward.

If they’re admissible without the test or you don’t need the test, why put them through the test prep and the test? [19:21]Right. Exactly. Exactly. We want to be cognizant of their time and do that in the beginning of the process. With our flex program, if you meet the criteria we’ve listed on our website, you can submit without a test. It’s a lower volume of applications. Any part-time program in any MBA in the US is a lower volume than their full-time for attracting local audiences, not global audiences. What we look for in a flex part-time applicant is a little bit different. We’re emphasizing more of their work experience in terms of what they bring to the class. Yes, academics are important, but we’re looking at different contributions in the admissions process.

Both offer test waivers. At the end of the day, we want to know if an MBA student is going to be successful in the quantitative classes of the curriculum, finance, stats, accounting. People can show that through their standardized tests. They can show it through quant classes that they took in undergrad. Perhaps they have a CPA or CFA. Perhaps they do quantitative. We just want all of our students set up for success when they start the program, and that’s why, perhaps, there’s a difference between MBA and ESM. Because MBA is a more highly quantitative degree.

The essay questions for the two programs are really quite different, but you’re the one managing both of the processes, right? [10:44]Yes.

The video essay for the MS-ESM is about long-term career goals. The video essay for the MBA asked for a hobby, passion, or what you want to do for fun in your free time, and why. Are you doing an experiment on the two programs, trying to see what kind of responses you get? What is the reason for the different questions? [21:06]Yeah. No, great question. For ESM, we’ll start with ESM. Just like it’s an interdisciplinary academic degree, we have an interdisciplinary admissions committee, so it’s a different process. We have people from the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences, we have faculty on the admissions committee, and then we have admissions professionals. So different structure entirely. But also, if you look at the questions we’re asking, we want to get to know this audience. It is a new program and we want to know, why are they interested in environmental sustainability?

We know at the school why it’s important and we know where these students are going, but we want to hear from them why they’re interested in this kind of new degree. And why are they choosing Georgetown versus some of the other programs out there? Because if we’re going to be spending 11 months talking about environmental sustainability, someone needs to be able to write an essay that says why they’re passionate about it. Because it’s a highly concentrated topic of interest and focus in the program. That’s why it’s a little bit of a different question, because it’s new and we want to get to know the audience. And then we want to know how they’re planning to use this in the future in environmental sustainability.

With an MBA, as we’ve talked about, it’s a totally diverse audience. People are going to all different types of jobs, industry, skills, they’re starting their own companies. An MBA is a well-established kind of degree. People know what they’re getting into and know why they’re doing it. We really want to get to know the diverse complexity of the student audiences, and we get to know that through the three prompts that we’ve provided. What I love about how we do this at Georgetown is, we don’t force people into one essay. We give them three, allow them to think about what sells their value proposition the best, and then answer that, the best one.

They also focus on our values. If you think of principled leadership, helping the common good, diversity in the Georgetown community, these are very strong values of Georgetown. And admitting people that are going to be a part of that thread of our community and value fabric is really important. In both programs though, we have video essays, and I love video essays because it allows us to get to know the candidate in a hopefully non-stressful environment. Sometimes the applicants get very stressed out by the interview experience. They shouldn’t. We try not to make it stressful, but they do.

The video essay allows them to re record and record that video essay as much as they want until they feel like it represents them. And then it allows us to see them in a very normal, non-stressed environment. And we get to know them a little bit outside of paper as well. That’s why we do the video essay. It’s helpful in the MBA because of the volume of applications and the volume of people in the admissions committee. In the ESM program, we don’t have an evaluative interview components, so this video essay is in substitution of it.

Any plans to introduce an interview to the ESM admissions process? [24:26]Not at this time. But as with any new program, we, every year, evaluate and optimize and get feedback. Because it’s a smaller program, we’re already getting to know the candidates a lot in the pre-application process. Our admissions recruiter can almost go down the line of the applications and say, “Yep, I’ve met with that person, met with that person.” We just get to know them a little bit more. At this point, no evaluated interview, but we’ll see. We’ll see how that might change.

What can an interviewee to the MBA program expect that they’re lucky enough to be invited to interview? Is it all virtual now, or are you starting to do in-person? [25:01]We are completely back in business, as I say. Yes, we are offering virtual. Certainly, it’s more conducive to people’s schedules and the travel cost, but we want people to come to campus. I think when you step onto Georgetown’s campus, and especially the Hariri Rebuilding, it’s a magnificent campus.

You really feel the weight of the history and the prestige, and so we want people to come to campus to get to know our community. But obviously, if it works better to do virtual, they can do that.

What can you expect? It’s 20 to 25 minutes. We give candidates a few minutes to ask some questions of us. It could be from a member of the admissions team or an alumni, or a student interviewer. We have a large team. We do that so we can reduce biases, by having multiple opinions and perspectives. We have a series of questions or topics we will ask students, but we also like to have the conversation flow. If you say something that’s of, really, interest to us, we may ask you to expand on that.

The goal is for us to picture how you’ll fit within the cohort from an academic perspective, from a giving-back-to-the-student experience perspective, from an alumni perspective. We’re trying to see how you really fit with the culture and community at Georgetown. But don’t be nervous. Just have a conversation with us. Get to know us as we’re getting to know you. It’s a two-way street, really.

They should also prepare questions for you, shouldn’t they? [26:41]Absolutely. Absolutely. That is one of the, I would say, biggest mistakes that I’ve seen applicants make is I’ll say, “Do you have any questions that I can answer for you?” Some people will say, “Well, I’ve had all my questions answered from all of the students and admission staff that I’ve previously spoken with.” That may be the case, but still, ask a question anyways.

Because even if you already know the answer, think you know the answer, ask it anyway. Because it does show a level of interest in the school, and we are gauging the level of interest you have in us when we interview you. Again, just repeat something even if you feel like you know the answer.

Now, just to clarify, you said that you have a large team of interviewers, but the applicant is interviewed by one person, correct? [27:25]Correct. Yeah, that’s absolutely correct.

It’s one interview with one person, so it’s one-on-one? [27:34]Yes.

The deadlines are March 30th and May 2nd for the MBA program, and April 3rd and May 15th for the MS-ESM. Is an applicant at a disadvantage if they apply in these later rounds? Are they better off waiting until next year? [27:44]No, you’re not at a disadvantage. There is always room for good applicants. I would say, in particular, this year, we are very empathetic to these tech layoffs. I almost feel like in some ways, it’s mirroring the layoffs of 2020 and 2008. People from fantastic companies that are now saying, “Let me reevaluate. Am I in the right industry? Am I in the right function?” If the answer is, “I don’t know,” or, “No,” come to an MBA and reset and figure it out. Or come and do a specialized master’s to make yourself that more marketable to guard against potential layoffs maybe in the future.

Investing in yourself with a graduate degree will only help you in the future, but it can also give you some mental space to really think through, introspect in, what’s happening in your personal and professional life, and figuring out what’s right for you. And then you also gain a great network of colleagues as well. It’s not too late to apply. If you are ready, submit an application.

In a worst case scenario, let’s say we don’t have room for you, we love re-applicants. Re-applicants have a high percentage of admit rate. When we pull the numbers and we see re-applicants that have come back and maybe improve their application a little bit from the previous year based on feedback we give them, their admit rate is higher than just applicants in their first try. Have a conversation with us, we want to get to know you. And definitely apply.

Has Georgetown made any accommodations for the laid off workers, or are you just planning to, I guess, reserve more seats for the third and fourth round, given what’s been going on the last couple of months? [29:33]Yeah. We did make accommodations in that we were going to only leave our full-time test waiver open in the fall. We decided to extend the test waiver into the spring because studying for a test can take three, four, five months. We know that this is affecting candidates right now. They may not have that time, so we just extended what we had already done in the fall.

If you look at our application fees, we have different criteria that we introduced about a year ago based on your income level. If you are under certain income levels, therefore if you were just laid off, you can qualify for different waivers or reductions. That’s something we’ve always been proud to do, to recognize people from different socioeconomic statuses.

Georgetown has always had four rounds, so I know I see a lot of other MBA programs adding a fourth round or adding a third round. We’ve always had four rounds, so for us, we will keep that, and then may extend some rolling flexibility right after the fourth round. We will just see how everything goes.

Let’s just focus on MBA and the ESM. What should they be doing? What should they be examining in their background to see if they need to improve something and be ready for the fall? [31:04]Yeah. I can tell an applicant that has gotten to know us really well, because they have come to various events, even if they’re virtual. They have talked with some current students and they’ve maybe talked with some alumni. By doing all those conversations, by the time they get to the application process and the interview process, they can talk very naturally and very authentically about why they’re interested in Georgetown. And it comes through. It’s not like they’re memorizing facts from our resume. They just speak about it because they came to campus or they had lunch with this alum.

We can tell that authenticity, and that weighs in pretty heavily to the admissions and interview process. Because any school wants candidates that want to be at their school. I’m sure I could speak for any of my colleagues that would say that. So use this next six months to do that. Get to know the schools. Get to know Georgetown, because it will then further convict you if we’re the right school for you as well. It helps you and it helps us, so do that.

Come visit us. We have different in-person or virtual sessions. And we are back traveling throughout the world, so check out our website. We’ll be at, hopefully, a city or a country near you in the next six to eight months, and we’d love to meet you.

There were some really interesting projects that the ESM students were doing. Could you dive into that for a moment? [32:39]Yes, definitely. This is the Capstone Project. In any of our graduate programs, there’s always a very hands-on Capstone experience. We just announced or about to announce the Capstone Projects for the ESM students. We have companies like Amazon, Department of Energy, Starbucks, that are going to be participating in this Capstone Project. Students will be in small teams, they will solve a problem for these companies and then present their recommendations to the company. Really excited about those for the ESM program, all very environment and sustainability focused. And it mirrors the Global Business Experience that our MBA students do, which also tackles and solves a problem for a current company.

In terms of other projects, just to add on for ESM, we have, even in this first year, students who have already published articles in the Supply Chain Management Review. The topic of this article was palm oil supply chain, and it’s just so impressive to say four months in, we have students publishing in a top journal. Lots of things that are hands-on in both programs.

You mentioned not asking questions in interviews. What else do you see as a common mistake that applicants make? [34:07]A common mistake is underselling their accomplishments on their resume. There’s a lot of times where I see a student’s resume and I then speak with them, whether it’s an informational interview or if it’s an in evaluative interview, and they start talking about some of their experiences in their job. I’m looking at their resume and they’ve undersold themselves.

For example, I was interviewing a candidate one time and they talked about how they got promoted at this top consulting firm. I’m looking at their resume and their promotion is not on their resume, and they were at a top consulting firm. The person said, “Well, I just ran out of room.” And I said, “You never run out of room to say you’ve been promoted.”

Thinking through how to show those accomplishments, how to write a resume that is not bullets of responsibilities. Instead, bullets of accomplishments.

Quantify your accomplishments. What did you do to improve the process, the function, the department? That’s a big mistake that I see a lot of people making, to be very honest.

One way to guard against that is, go to the website. Go to your company’s website, or go to your competitor’s website and look at a similar job description to the one that you have, and think through. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. This is what I’m doing. This is the way I can position my responsibilities. Because sometimes, from a bird’s eye perspective, what you’ve written on your resume doesn’t really reflect the value and truly immense work that you’re doing for a company.

Because when you see that, then it tells us at the school that you’re going to go above and beyond in the program. You’re going to go above and beyond when you get a job as an alum. It builds a profile of who you are.

You’re in Washington DC. What does that add to the programs? [36:45]Yeah. Washington DC is the nexus of everything in many ways. Fortune 100 companies, nonprofits, NGOs, government. There’s actually a statistic out there from the Chamber that says there’s the largest concentration of Fortune 500 companies is represented in DC. It may not be their headquarters, but there is a representation of companies that are out here. What that means for applicants is, when you’re networking, you don’t necessarily have to go to New York or Boston or Silicon Valley. There is going to be someone from an office that’s here in DC that can get you your foot in the door, that you can network with here, having coffee, versus having to necessarily take the train or take a plane somewhere.

I will also say that we have tons of large speakers and world leaders that are in and out of DC all the time to do whatever they do. But while they’re here, they often want to speak with students because it’s fulfilling for them as a leader. They often will come to Georgetown and they’ll speak to students. And so our students get exposure to literally world and corporate leaders.

I think every sitting president has spoken at Georgetown. Whether it’s the President of the Peace Corps or a chief in the military, or CEOs of a bank, or CEOs of consumer products, good companies come to Georgetown. That exposure from a learning perspective. Also, alumni are constantly in and out of DC. And so being able to network and build your network is helpful.

From a very work-life balance perspective, and I say this with a perspective, I’m from Texas, so I’ve lived in DC for a little bit of time now, but I’m originally from Texas, DC has a great work-life balance. There’s the Potomac River. You can go kayaking. You can go two hours west of here and be in the mountains and ski. You can go three hours east of here and go be on the beach. Short ride to New York. We’re just in a great large city with a small town feel.

What question would you have liked me to ask that I didn’t ask? [39:05]Why Georgetown, maybe? Why Georgetown?

I love this question because I can talk about it with just authenticity, that I believe in it. What makes Georgetown unique, I guess, is how I maybe would even word it. We have a global focus. Because of our location in Washington DC, which is a very global city, and because of the students that we attract, we typically have over 40 countries in the MBA program. Even in the ESM program this year, we had over 20 countries, with 45 students.

Wow. [39:48]You’re getting to be exposed to this global environment in a very short amount of time, the global nature of our professors. A third of them hold international passports. We’re talking about global companies and global organizations. Second is our Jesuit background. I didn’t know what a Jesuit school meant or what it was before I came to work at Georgetown. To be very honest, I am not Catholic, but I’ve learned to appreciate what being a Jesuit means.

There’s a real focus on taking care of the whole person and teaching in the classroom. We hire professors that actually want to teach and are motivated by teaching, not just researching. As an executive MBA student, I saw the stark difference going into the MBA classroom. These professors were almost like putting on a show. They were invested in this experience of the MBA, which was phenomenal.

I would also say we teach at the intersection of business and society and politics and environment, looking at a more bird’s eye view of what’s happening in the world. And then yes, being in DC, it is a part of your experience. Maybe in undergrad, I would’ve wanted to go to a more rural location. But if I’m in a professional degree program where my goal is to get a job coming out, I want to be where the employers are, where the alumni are, where the networking is happening. I want to be in a city, and so you obviously get that at Georgetown.

Shelly, thank you so much for joining me today. I really enjoyed learning about Georgetown’s MBA program a little bit more again, and the MS-ESM program. Thank you, again. [41:16]Thank you. Thanks for having me. It’s always great to be on, Linda.

Relevant Links:

• Georgetown MBA
• Georgetown MS-ESM

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Shortcuts to Key Insights from this Episode* How to prepare and practice for the Casper. * A detailed explanation on how the subjective test is scored. * The most recent development in making Casper more equitable across all demographics. * What happens if raters identify a red flag. * Will Casper spread to other fields such as social work and law? * Common misconceptions about Casper. * Relevant Links and Related Shows

Do you have to take the CASPer for at least some of the programs you are applying to? Are you concerned about? This interview with the co-founder of Acuity Insights, the folks who provide the Casper, is for you! [Show Summary]Dr. Dore discusses everything applicants need to know about taking the Casper and what it truly tests.

Interview with Dr. Kelly Dore, Co-Founder & VP of Science and Innovation at Acuity Insights and Adjunct Professor at McMaster University at McMaster University. [Show Notes]Do you need to take the Casper for at least some of the programs you are applying to, are you concerned about it? Well, this interview with the co-founder of Acuity Insights, the folks that bring us the Casper, is for you.

Welcome to the 513th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me today. Are you ready to apply to your Dream Medical Schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted Med School Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/med-quiz, complete the quiz, and you’ll not only get an assessment, but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus, it’s all free. Again, take the quiz at accepted.com/med-quiz to obtain your free assessment.

Our guest today is Dr. Kelly Dore, co-founder and vice President of Science and Innovation at Acuity Insights, and also adjunct professor at McMaster University. Dr. Dore, welcome to Admission Straight Talk.

Can you give an overview of the Casper exam and its structure? What can applicants expect? [1:31]Sure. So the exam most people who are familiar with from Acuity is Casper. Casper is an online situational judgment test. A situational judgment test, it’s different than a behavioral interview question you might have. If people are familiar with doing interviews where you say, tell me about a time you managed multiple responsibilities at once. Instead, an SJT presents a scenario in the case of Casper. The majority of those are video scenarios too; you’re watching a 60 to 90-second video. You have a role in it that we tell you at the beginning, and you watch that video and then you get a series of questions after it. So you watch the scenario, see what’s going on, and there’s then three follow up questions talking about what you would do and why you would take that course of action.

The total exam takes around 90 minutes, and during that time, there’s opportunity for breaks. There’s the chance to just reflect, so you’ll watch the video. There’s a chance to have a reflection period before you go into typing your response or recording your response, depending on the moment In Casper. Now Casper broadly is intended to measure social intelligence and professionalism in applicants. It was developed so that we could get a more holistic picture of applicants supporting that holistic selection process and the Casper exam. We’ll go into more detail about it, but it is something that we hope supports the application process.

When can applicants take it? I know it’s online. Can they take it at six in the morning, wherever they are? Can they take it at 10 o’clock at night? [3:01]Absolutely. So because it is online, and I always say we were online before online was cool. So back in 2010, we started with an online examination because we started in Canada and we wanted to ensure that we weren’t disadvantaging our rural and remote applicants. They weren’t having to travel to test centers to take this examination because the intent of it is it’s used early on in the admissions process. So before you’ve gone for an interview or things like that, this happens. So you don’t want to have to travel or incur costs for accommodation and things.

So the way that Casper works is because it’s a proctored examination, there’s set test times. Now there’s a variety of set test times. It’s not just one time. So when you’re applying, if you’re applying to physiotherapy, you can go in, look for your school and look at all the different test windows that are open to you. Now, the test, as I said, takes about 90 minutes. You have a two-hour window to complete the test. So it’s not that it’s to the moment and then your computer shuts off. You have a little bit of flex time, and of course, folks who require accommodations can apply for that if they need extended time and things like that.

Is there a different Casper rexam if you’re applying to medical school than if you’re applying to DO programs or PA programs or whatever? [4:13]Yeah. There are different Casper tests that exist. So first of all, the Casper tests that’s even between Canada and the US are different Casper tests. Because they take into consideration some of the cultural nuances and settings that are appropriate for that country. And also the raters who rate that examination, and we’ll talk about that a little bit later, are from that country. So you don’t have people from Canada rating U.S. tests and vice versa.

Now, we also have different levels of tests. So people who are coming out of high school applying to a nursing program, they get a different level of Casper test than somebody may be applying to medical school, and then somebody applying to residency would get an even different level of test. So we’ve got that set up for the level of difficulty. And then in addition, we also have little test groups as well. So MD and DO applicants can write the same examination because we know there’s cross application there, so we didn’t want them to have to write two examinations. And then the others have their own test windows as well. Sounds a little confusing as I’m explaining it, but when you go on and enter your school, you’ll see that the test is set there, it’s set for you at the right level for the school that you’re applying to.

How many different kinds of tests are there? It sounds like there’s a lot. [5:34]It does sound like there’s a lot. We have an amazing content development team who works with a lot of equity and diversity in mind as they’re developing them. But they also keep in mind they want to get the right level of difficulty. The scenarios that we present, so for example, if you’re applying to a medical school or you’re applying to a nursing program, there’s not clinical content in there that you need to know because we don’t want to give advantage to anybody who’s family is a physician versus those who are maybe first in their family to attend university.

So the content is intended to be relevant to everybody. So that’s why when we have these different levels of tests, we want to make sure that people who are leaving high school have had the opportunity to have the experiences we have in this scenario or can at least relate to them. And then similarly, people applying to medical school, they may have had other examples of things in university they would’ve encountered. So we can have a little bit different scenarios there.

So the goal is obviously to assess judgment, I guess cultural awareness, the non subject matter related aspects of a medical school or healthcare application, correct? [6:35]Healthcare application, absolutely. So we’re wide across healthcare. So a variety of different types of programs use us to apply to. One of the important things is that while we broadly measure social intelligence rather than professionalism, there’s a lot of sub areas that are covered in that. So communication, collaborations, ethics, empathy, they’re sometimes referred to as the non-cognitive skills or non-academic skills. I actually have heard them recently referred to as the durable skills because the technical skills and the knowledge stuff is constantly changing in the world that we live in. But these are the things that are durable throughout somebody’s lifetime and training, and I really like that term.

I like that too. So that’s what admissions committees are gleaning from it. This professionalism, the socialism intelligence, is there a way for applicants to prepare for it or practice for it? [7:26]Yes. And because we know, and I can tell you this, when we started this examination in McMaster back in 2010, a single medical school in Canada, there was a test prep company that popped up when we started it and I said, “We can tell you how to write Casper.” And I thought, “I can’t tell folks how to write Casper. I don’t know how they’re doing it.” And we really wanted to ensure that we were creating an assessment that didn’t provide an opportunity for third-party coaching in that same way. We didn’t want you to have to pay in order to do better on the examination. So a couple of things that we did around the structure of that.

So first and foremost, we do have a practice test. There’s a technical requirements check that you can do and a full practice test. And the reason that those are important is that when we did a study actually looking at people’s preparatory methods for taking Casper, whether it was third-party coaching, doing the practice test, sitting in their room thinking about the types of things that were measuring, the only thing that had a little incremental value was really the practice test that they could write. And it’s because we know this, it’s a familiarization with the format.

So you go on, there is a time limit for the answers. And I think that is one of the things that people are always worried about is that you can actually go on to complete some of this. You can do it as many times as you want, if you want to do it 10 times. It’s all about making you feel more comfortable in a stressful situation as much as possible. So I really encourage. This is what I tell all of the pre-health advisors, always get your applicants to do the practice test, make them feel comfortable. They know what they’re getting into, whether that’s typing their response or video recording their response. It just gives them that opportunity to feel a little bit more comfortable with that. And then in addition, we send out a ton of materials.

So on our website, there’s a webinar that you can watch that our applicant support team who’s amazing goes through everything for you, how to sign up, how to do all the things you might want to do to prepare, how to get a quiet space for yourself, et cetera. And then there’s also emails that go out in other literature that we provide to say, “What are our tips and tricks? If we could tell you everything that we would do if we were writing the test, what would we tell you?” And that’s all there free and accessible for folks to go and grab, which is really important because we want to make sure that as much as possible, we’re able to level that playing field. So really encourage folks to go try those out.

I think one of the biggest concerns that we hear from clients and medical and healthcare applicants of all fields is how do you grade and test something as subjective, that’s judgment? [11:04]That’s a great question. You have to have experience. And I think the other thing about bad judgment is we all do make mistakes. Any of us who said, I don’t make mistakes would be but-

Using bad judgment. [11:31]Exactly. And the whole point of that though is to learn from it. And if you’ve learned from it, then really at the end of the day you’re doing better because you’re really starting to reflect and think on things. Not everybody does that, unfortunately. Some people still continue on to go make bad judgments, but hopefully most of us are trying to do that. So when we actually started to create this test in the first place, that was part of our consideration. There’s really cool research by Shiphra Ginsburg out of the University of Toronto who’s looked at professionalism. And what she found is that if you get experts, so these folks who are faculty members who are supposed to be able to measure professionalism, and you get them to watch a scenario, what’s interesting is they can’t agree on a course of action.

And that what you realize here is when we talk about these complex professionalism scenarios, there’s no single right answer that exists. There’s lots of shades of gray in all of this, and they’re all impacted by exactly what you say, our own experiences, our own pathway, the things that we’ve encountered, the context around the thinking that we’re doing at the time. I was always the person who when I was writing multiple choice examinations in university, I would write in beside the answer why I picked that one, because I need to contextualize it. Just that gives you a little weird insight into my psyche.

So one of the things that helps you realize is that there’s a lot of thinking that goes into why we pick an answer. So when we created the Casper examination, intentionally we made it open-ended because we don’t think it’s right for applicants to look through and pick from a list of five the most appropriate, because that varies a lot. And Shiphra Ginsburg found the same, that if she had to try and get experts to agree on a right course of action, she had to simplify and simplify and simplify the scenarios again until it was obvious.

So we really want to have these complex professionalism scenarios. What we need to do is actually have open-ended responses where Linda, you and I would see the same scenario, but we’ve had completely different experiences in our lives. So we may take the same course of action, but for very, very different reasons, or we might take different courses of actions, both of which are very appropriate when we contextualize them and we explain our why behind it. And it’s really that why that helps us score Casper. If we just had people write their answers about what they would do, in all honesty, we wouldn’t get the right information. It’s why you take that course of action that really helps us know A, it’s an authentic response. You’re not just trying to pick what I think is right, what you really feel and believe is the right course of action.

And then the other part of it is our rating part. So I always tell applicants this because I think it makes them feel better. Our raters have to do a Casper test so they know what it’s like to write your response or be saying your response and get cut off. So they understand that sometimes you don’t finish your last thought or you don’t, so they understand a lot. The other thing is that when we get them to do the rating, we don’t give them an ideal response to grade against, because again, Linda, when we’re answering a scenario, you might talk about communication and empathy, and I might talk about collaboration and problem solving in my response, both of which are very appropriate or-

Social influences. [14:46]Or social influences, exactly. So we might take it in slightly different directions because of things that are important to us. So we don’t want our raters going through and just having this pre-prescribed idea of what the right answer is because there is no single right answer. And as they’re doing this, they’re going through and they’re looking at applicants as they go through multiple applicants for the same scenario. So they’re benchmarking as they go through and after they’ve rated 20, they can go back and rescore those responses because I may think something is a seven out of nine, and then after I’m like, “That’s actually an eight or a nine out of nine,” after I see the other responses. So it’s relative to your peers as well. And people, what we’ve seen, and we can give example responses is that some folks say, I would do A, and some people say they would do B and they score the same, and that’s one of the most important things.

The other piece is that there’s still subjectivity in it, that’s right. Most of the world is subjective, unfortunately, whether you like what I’m wearing is subjective or not, whether or not I introduce myself properly or explain the Casper test well is subjective or not. So one of the most important things is this concept of multiple independent responses. So a GPA is valuable because it’s not just a measure of a single course. A multiple choice exam is valuable because it’s not just a single question. Casper becomes valuable because it’s not just a single scenario. This year there’s 14 scenarios that folks are going through to get that score, and it’s your performance on each of those. So you could have a Casper scenario and you say, “I did not answer that one.” Well, you just feel like you didn’t nail it as much as you would like to. That’s okay. The other raters have no idea how you answered that scenario. You just go on and you start again fresh with-

So it’s different raters rating? [16:42]It’s a different rating-

It’s not by the exam, it’s by the question? [16:48]Exactly. So we’ve removed this thing called the halo effect. The Halo effect is an unintended first impression bias that we all get. So I come on the call, you’re from Los Angeles and we didn’t have this conversation, but if I told you about this great story I had on my first visit to LA. That might make you think differently than if I didn’t know you were from LA and I said, “I don’t really like that city.” That just creates this unconscious bias in your head, just like a panel interview. So part of the reason panel interviews are difficult is that folks can go in and if you’re really nervous on the first question and you stumble and you don’t feel like you’ve got it, you still have to answer the rest of the interview questions is part of the same group and you’re constantly thinking about how they may have seen your response.

But with Casper, it’s a brand new rate for each scenario that you write. So what that allows you to do is have a 14 different fresh starts as you’re going through and really present your best self as you’re going through. So that score that you get at the end is 14 independent impressions of how you did across 14 different types of scenarios.

And the rater is only rating, let’s say question one? [18:00]Question one for multiple different-

Another rater is rating question two and another rater question three. I assume you have multiple scenarios, you don’t just have one set of scenarios for each program because otherwise it gets shared and all that stuff. [18:04]Exactly. Yeah. And the nice thing about that too is that because we know with implicit bias, we all have bias, this unconscious bias that we all have by having multiple raters, it allows us to minimize the potential impact of that bias across the examination.

I viewed the sample videos that you have online, the sample scenarios, and I was struck by the fact that they were all basically ethical dilemmas. [18:36]And there is ethics in everything, in all honesty, it’s this umbrella over a lot of things. Exactly. And the scenarios we used are probably some of the ones that we’ve gotten feedback over. We actually are going to likely update them. So a lot of them you’ll see, sometimes it feels like communication goes over a bunch of scenarios, and that makes sense because you can’t cover just one dimension in a scenario, and that’s it. These are very, very multi-dimensional. And because we’re talking about professionalism across all of these scenarios, it also is your lens through which you’re seeing them a little bit too. You’re seeing the equity in them, you’re seeing the different pieces in the different scenarios. So one of the things that we’ve heard is that some applicants see one thing through the scenarios. They were like, “These were all about collaboration.” And somebody else said, “These things are all about ethics across the scenarios.” So it’s really interesting because it does allow that different lens for folks to have.

I remember the one about the fellow whose wife wants him to take paternity leave and he’s worried that it’s going to impact his future and his career. It was interesting. And he was talking about it with his colleague, and I was thinking to myself, “Why doesn’t he talk to his wife?” I was thinking, “Discuss it with your wife.” [19:49]Yeah. There’s a lot there, I think. And I think in what we’re trying to do is no scenario is perfect because they’re all meant to be complex and a little bit.

They were. [20:20]Yeah. So I think one of the things that we want folks to do is it really stimulates your thinking. Each year we modify the test because we take a lot of applicant feedback. We also use stakeholder feedback and data as well to try and evolve the test each year. So one of the things that we’ve done is after you watch the scenario, we’ve added a 30-second reflection time. So that really allows you to pause and say, “What was going on in that scenario and what was happening before you see the questions?” And very similar to what you’re saying there is because you do get these thoughts of like, well, “Why isn’t he doing that?”

Why is he talking to his colleague? Why is he going to talk to his wife? [20:56]Exactly.

Casper introduced video recorded responses last year. Are you planning to keep them going forward? It sounds like you are. And did you see any change in scores upwards or downwards with this change and another… Well, I’ll ask you my next question in a minute, but go ahead. [21:03]Okay, great. So for anybody that wrote the exam last year, they will have seen that we’ve evolved from just having typewritten responses, which is where we started back in 2010 to now also allowing some of the scenarios to be video recorded, just like a Zoom session. And then also other ones typed. And there were two reasons for that. One was applicant feedback that especially in the world that we live in, that they don’t want to just type their responses. They want to be able to communicate. And that ability to capture verbal communication is also so important because not every program can have an interview and not every program wants to wait to really value that communication piece until the interview time. That was, in fact, the first reason why we created Casper is that in our medical school, we were having to weight GPA so heavily, we used the MCAT verbal reasoning component back in the day, but we weren’t able to really measure these personal professional attributes early enough on.

So that was the original inception for why Casper was created. But when we started doing it, when we were at the edge of technology back in 2010 and scary as that is to sound, we were really just doing type responses because the internet wasn’t where it could be for people to actually capture videos. Now, the data has also said about videos that you can actually further minimize demographic differences with the use of videos, which is very counterintuitive, which we talked about implicit bias and readers actually seeing the videos. So before last year, we actually piloted it for two years before that, so where people could opt in and voluntarily complete the video at Casper. That allowed us to start collecting data and understanding because I’ll be honest, I wasn’t convinced when I read that first study that we would see demographic differences decrease, but amazingly enough, that’s what we saw.

So SJT, situational judgment tests and Casper in particular tend to have significantly smaller demographic differences than things like GPA, GRE, MCAT, those standardized academic tests. So because we’re measuring something different, we tend to have smaller demographic differences. So that means fascinating differences between the two groups. However, there were still demographic differences, they still existed, those group differences.

So with the addition of AV, we’ve found that we’ve been able to even further decrease those demographic differences. The strongest area where we’ve seen that is actually for Black or African American applicants who write the examination. So last year everybody wrote it who completed a Casper test, but we didn’t use the scores because we really wanted to test and make sure we were introducing something that made sense, was defensible in what we were doing, but also really did provide that demographic differences decrease that we wanted to see.

And we saw the results repeated for every different group. So whether that was nursing or OT/PT or MD, DO or GME for applicants to residency, we saw it time and time again. So for that reason, we made the decision to include it this year in the examination, which is in all honesty, so exciting to me because while we’ve made changes to the exam each year to try and make it more equitable, this is really, I think one of the first times a standardized test has really made a monumental change that’s demonstrated value in terms of demographic impact.

I guess that’s the difference in literally looking at people as individuals as opposed to as members of a group. [24:44]I think so. And despite the fact that they’re videos, and again, I keep going back to the fact that this was counterintuitive to me at first. We’ve been able to see through a combination of the way that we train raters, but also because of the snapshots that we’re getting and we’re having, again, those multiple independent impressions, we’re able to capture data that not only predicts for future performance is defensible, but also now has increasingly smaller differences between groups that are applying, which just aligns with our mission of creating more equitable assessments in creating a world served by exceptional professionals.

Do medical schools or healthcare programs, whatever program they’re applying to have access to the actual exam, the videos, or do they just get the raw score? [25:32]Great question. So applicants who write get their quartile when they write. They understand where they fall.Part of the reason that we did that, and I just want to explain that, is that Casper is not like the GRE or the MCAT. It’s not a cut score that schools have-

Like you get a 512 or a 515- [25:59]And you’re in or you’re out. It’s not that way. It’s used in a way to support the holistic assessment of applicants. So it’s used in a rubric or in a formula along with people. So it’s not a cut score in that same way, I want to make sure people understand if they find out they’re in the bottom quartile, it does not mean that they’re ineligible for getting in.

So all they find out is what quartile they’re in? [26:22]They find out what quartile… The schools actually get the scores and they get the average score. So they don’t see the score for the individual scenarios. The only time that they would do that is if our raters do rate for red flags. So if there’s egregious racism, anything like that, that is in the response, the rater flags that. Now we at Acuity don’t make a decision about what to do with that that’s passed on to the school, whether or not they want to consider it a flag or not. So in those cases, that would be the only time. But in all honesty, I’m grateful to say that those are few and far between, which is very important.

So they get that they don’t see the videos or they don’t get the individual responses because we want them to be able to use the data. And what we know, and sadly enough we’ve heard, is that we know personal statements have limitations. They have bias in them, they tend to be not personal statements. They tend to be the collaboration of an entire community to write sometimes. Because if you have three months to write a high stakes personal statement, I’m going to get everybody I know to help give me feedback as you should.

That’s by the way, in my opinion, a recipe for disaster if you get everybody to comment. [27:32]I could not agree with you more.

So we know, unfortunately, that a lot of the personal statements that are written don’t get read because schools don’t have the resources to sort through them. That is unfortunately in some cases, the sad fact. Schools are getting better at that, which is the most exciting part because they understand it’s important to have more data points on applicants. But what we know is that if we gave schools every single scenario, they would just get overwhelmed with data. And each individual score itself is not a defensible score. It’s the collective that is a defensible score, and that’s what we want them to focus on.

Is the Casper predictive of success in healthcare programs, and as a clinician, has there been any studies to correlate Casperto passage on the Step exams or other licensing exams, especially the clinical ones or to the objective structured clinical examinations in medical school or other exams? [28:19]Those are the key questions. It’s like you might be measuring something, but are you measuring something that matters? And the exciting thing for us is that we’re seeing that data. What’s exciting in my mind is that that data is repeated school after school, after school. We’re seeing it repeated. What we tend to see, so in medical school for folks who are applying elsewhere, tends to be the first couple of years. It’s changing a little bit, but they tend to be more lecture-based where you’re focusing on anatomy and physiology and all of those really important things. But Casper doesn’t correlate with those things. We know Casper doesn’t correlate with GPA. It doesn’t correlate with those. So it doesn’t correlate with your measures of your anatomical knowledge, that shouldn’t. If it was, we would be measuring the wrong thing.

Where we see Casper starting to correlate is in those third and fourth years on OSCE performance. So what we tend to see is that it adds strength to the prediction, so additive to GPA or additive to the MCAT. So it makes it stronger. So it’s a combination of knowledge and personal professional attributes. Not surprisingly that they’re measuring in OSCE. We actually had the good fortune of doing a study with the National Board of Medical Examiners who do the Step exams at the end of medical school. And what we saw, not surprisingly, is that your Step one exam does not correlate with Casper. That is not surprising. It shouldn’t.

That’s a knowledge exam? [29:56]Exactly.

That’s step two and step three? [29:59]So Step 3, we didn’t have the data for unfortunately. Step 2 CS, we saw some increased correlations. What we saw, if we look at the Canadian National Licensing exam, and we published a study on this as well with the Medical Council of Canada, is that what we see is that Casper correlated with a component on the national licensing exam in Canada, which is roughly equivalent to the Step 2 CS, which had a component called the CCLEO and PHLO, which is the cultural, communication, legal, ethical, organizational and population health components. So big words, yes. What it predicted for if you did well on CCLEO and PHLO, it predicted good peer review out into practice and lack of professionalism complaints. So we saw Casper correlating that, which is a surrogate for later performance of course, and we’re ongoing doing these studies, trying to collect more data.

When we look at higher education or other things, such as occupational therapy, we’ve seen correlations with OSCE exams as they’ve gone through over and above GPA. So that’s like, is it telling the school something useful? We’ve seen that data repeated in physician assistant programs, and most recently, even in teachers education and business schools, we started to see as people go into co-ops and get their work placement ratings very similarly, we started to see that. We also saw, when we think about beyond residency programs that are starting to use Casper, when they start to use it, they saw a decrease overall in both professionalism incidents as well as formalized remediations they had to do in professionalism. And why that’s important is that we know we’re actually relatively good at remediating knowledge.

So if somebody has a knowledge gap, we tend to have good solutions and a good pathway for them to follow to get them better. When it comes to professionalism, we don’t have those same tools. We don’t have those same frameworks in place to remediate and support. We tend to rely a lot on external resources, and they tend to fail a little bit more. So for that reason, we know it’s adding something to the process of helping to find people who are incredibly intelligent but also strong in their personal and professional attributes.

How does Casper differ from the AAMC situational judgment test, which I think is called PREview? [32:21]Great. So the AAMC for medicine has come out with a situational judgment test called PREview. What’s interesting is that they’re completely different formats. So even though they’re both situational judgment tests, they actually are collecting different information on the same thing. So very much, I use the analogy of when we’re talking about admissions to medical school, you have GPA and MCAT. They’re both measuring academics but different pieces of it. And I think the same is true with PREview and Casper. So PREview is a fixed response SJT. So where you have a series of response options after you’ve seen a scenario. So very similar, you get a text-based scenario with PREview, and then you rate the effectiveness of different options. The limitation to that is that, of course, those are pre-selected options from a group of subject matter experts.

So we’ve got a fixed option. You mean multiple choice options? [33:18]Yes, multiple choice options. And you rank the effectiveness of each. Yes, absolutely. PREview is really measuring your knowledge of what is the right thing to do in that scenario. Do you know from when you look at the list, which is the right thing to do, which is an important data point. Casper on the other hand, is measuring what you would do in that scenario. So you would take this course of action and why would you take that course of action? And it allows a little bit more flexibility in which one you would personally pick. Because what I know about generating response options is that even if I were in a room and I have been with incredibly brilliant folks at a conference workshop or something where we’re all brainstorming, we will not come up with every answer.

Students and applicants to health science programs and higher education will blow your mind with the way that they think through these complex problems and the ideas that they will come out with. And they’re things that we would’ve never ever thought of. And to me, those are the superstars who can really be creative and agile in their thinking and come up with something really from the heart based on their own experiences and things like that. And that’s the part that I think we miss otherwise. So fundamentally, they’re both situational judgment tests, which is a very, very defensible way of measuring things, but the way that we’ve set up the questions and scenarios actually measure different and I think complimentary things.

I wonder if any medical schools are going to start requiring both of them because they are complimentary. [34:46]Yeah, I think they are. It’s interesting as schools start to adjust and shift moving away from just really MCAT or GPA or GRE or whatever the right assessment is that they might require or really a GPA heavy application to considering other things. We do know that some schools do require both of them.

You also offer an exam called DUET. And what is DUET and what does it test? How does it test it? I mean, we focused very much on Casper, so maybe how does it differ? [35:15]So what we did is wanted to really look at what are some of the things that applicants think are really important and programs think are really important, but maybe we don’t measure really well. And one of them that came to mind once we developed Casper was this concept of “fit.” Is this program the right fit for me? Is this applicant the right fit for our program? And there’s a lot of problems with the term fit. It is a little bit assuming that there’s a single fit that people have, and if you don’t look like this cookie cutter shape, then you are not the right fit for a program, which I don’t think is right. We know that the more diverse a class is, the better for both the class and the program outcomes and the profession as a whole.

So we wanted to really say, “Okay. How do we take this concept that we know is really important to people, but do it in a more defensible way?” Because right now, programs are measuring this concept of fit by really very arbitrary ways. When I interviewed folks saying, “How do you measure fit? What do you look for?” Their answer was, “Well, I know it when I see it.” And oftentimes that means they looked like me or sounded like me or did something. So what that does is perpetuates some of the biases that we have in the process or doesn’t allow everyone a fair shot at the application. So we really wanted to say, what else could we do? And so DUET has that in mind. It’s how do we take the values and priorities of an applicant and the values and priorities of a program and actually align them in a way that makes sense.

So the way that we do this is a forced choice or paired comparison selection process. So it was a very long process to create this. We have one version for residency and one version now for MD and DO with other versions coming out soon. So what we did is get a lot of stakeholders including applicants to these programs, current students, faculty, all sorts of different stakeholders to say, “What are the things that really matter when you’re talking about fit?” Now, this isn’t taking into account geography or all those other things that also matter. No silver bullets in this conversation. We don’t have the answer to everything, but incrementally, how do we add data? The analogy I use is to add more pixels to the picture to get a clear lens of who it is that are actually applying to our programs.

So what we know is that with DUET, we were able to get three categories with multiple characteristics. And I’ll just use the example of if you could have a program that promotes diversity or has a reputation for excellence, which would you want? And the answer is, well, I’d want both. So there’s no way to give applicants or programs just a list of these characteristics. So we have them go through this comparison process. I use my kids as the analogy where during COVID, like many people, they wanted a pet. If I just said to them, “Do you want a dog, a cat, a fish or a turtle?” They would say yes to all of them, and I would live in a zoo. So what I could have said, “Okay. Do you want a dog or a cat, a dog or a turtle, a cat or a turtle?” And have them pick between each of those pairings. And what I would end up with is a numerically prioritized list of these animals. We did end up getting two kittens, by the way.

So what we do is we do that similar process with values like promoting a culture of diversity and a reputation for excellence. But instead of just picking A over B, it’s how important is one over the other, because it’s not just a simple, ”I care about one and don’t care about the other.” It’s, you’re allowed to have that sliding scale of importance for those. And by doing this, we’re able to get a sense of who the applicant really is or what the applicant’s priorities are and how they align to the program. Now, it doesn’t mean if somebody aligns with you not perfectly that they’re not the right fit, that means A, you have an opportunity to support them when they get into your program, which is a really great piece of data. But also you have an ability, we’ve given programs a chance to actually look at what they say are their values and priorities and say, “Is that right? Is that what you want to be doing?” And that’s been a really great opportunity.

So the DUET assessment as a quick summary takes about 10 minutes to do. It’s an online examination. You do it on demand. So anytime you register for your Casper test, you can go and sign up and complete DUET. We just say do it within the two week window of when you’ve completed your Casper test so that the school has your data. Then once you’ve completed it once, that’s all you have to do. So an applicant completes it once and it’s sent to every program that they’re applying to that requires DUET, and that’s compared to the program profile. Now, the programs go through the DUET process too.

I was just going to ask you. [40:40]They take the 10 minutes and they go through, and what’s great about it is it’s not just the admissions director who’s doing it or the program director. We get a combination of faculty and current students to do the DUET, to actually create the profile. So it’s not just what do they aspire to be, but the students in the program are actually saying, “What is it actually?” And that’s where it’s great data for the program to have to say, “Is that actually what you want to be doing?” But also it really gives a much more authentic sense of this concept that we call fit. So we’ve started to use the term instead of fit, we call it applicant program alignment, which really-

Just heard that term for the first time, I think yesterday. [41:18]And it’s this term alignment that really to me is a sense of how aligned are you? Because you could choose and not be very aligned to a program, but go to them for a variety of different other reasons. They could be geographically the right school for you. There could be a lot of other things, but it’s knowing that going in so you can respond and reflect on that.

Now with alignment as the goal, will there be a lessening of diversity of opinion and thought? [42:36]Great question. So one, I would hope not, and the reason for that is this is alignment in a few very specific areas. So it’s-

So alignment of values to a certain extent. [42:57]Values and priorities, absolutely. One of the things, and part of the reason I love Caspe ris that it allows that diversity of thought and very different perceptions of what a right answer is. With DUET, you’re getting a sense of, is this person really looking for a research heavy institution and that’s not what you are, then maybe you can’t support them. I always say that most of us are not weeds. There are some people who can grow in any soil you put them in. I am not one of those people; I need the right soil in order to be my best self. So it’s about making sure, are we putting them in the right soil there or are you prepared for the fact that you’re bringing in somebody who requires a very different soil? And so you need to be prepared to support that person because that’s an intentional choice, which is great.

I also really want to emphasize though that these are two data points in what should be many data points about the selection process. So it shouldn’t be just that we get people with a 3.8 or higher GPA in, because to me that brings in only a very small proportion of who could be a great nurse or healthcare professional. When we think about adding these other data points, that’s what helps us broaden and get that more holistic impression because we want folks who have had different opportunities in life, maybe folks who have never volunteered or never been able to shadow clinically because they’ve been working or supporting families or doing other things that are incredibly important in our society.

So how do we make sure that across the whole spectrum of the admissions process, we’re not putting artificial barriers in place. So for example, in the case of shadowing, there’s now these virtual shadowing opportunities that folks can do. And to me, that is just one of the best things that I’ve seen come out of the COVID pandemic because what that means is that you don’t have to know a clinician already or be able to get connected. You can just sign up for one. And it doesn’t require you to necessarily go and do that when that might not be feasible for what else you have going on in your life.

So it’s one of the silver linings I’ve tried to find in the way that admissions was completely disrupted during the COVID pandemic. Absolutely. I think we’ve actually found some really strong silver linings in this process. I also think virtual interviews are one of them too, from an equity standpoint of having to pay to travel and things like that. So I think going back to your original question, there is this tension because it’s really hard when folks don’t align with our way of thinking, for example, because that means they’re not going to be easily agreeable with what we’re doing.

But I think actually that breeds a better health professional because all of your patients aren’t going to be aligned to the way you’re thinking. All of your other caregivers that you need to work with in order to create that amazing healthcare team are not going to align with your way of thinking. So how do you learn to have that flexibility, that ability here, and understand others that provide a way to start articulating the reasoning behind what you think, not just what you think as a way to start building that pattern of communication. It’s going to help not only in the school but beyond. So I mean, that’s my opinion on why I think it’s going to happen, but I hope that by adding these data points, we’re not going to be limiting our applicant pool that way.

Now, Casper, correct me if I’m wrong, started at one school about 12 years ago? [46:33]Yeah. The research on it started 20 years ago to date myself.

20 years ago. All right. But it actually was implemented initially at McMaster in 2010. [46:44]Yeah, 2010.

Do you see it spreading to other fields? I mean, professionalism is important, social skills are important in tons of areas, whether it’s law, business, engineering, whatever? [46:50]Absolutely. So we already have teacher education programs using our tool.

Social work? [47:15]Yeah. And we’ve had other schools in business and engineering express an interest because in many of those cases, to become an effective professional, to become an effective engineer, you need to communicate and collaborate. You’re not a single person. You’re on a team. So all of those things are becoming increasingly important. I have this vision that one day by having these assessments, unfortunately unless something is measured, we don’t put a lot of value on it when we think about admissions, as you probably know more than anybody else. So I hope that by assessing it, a defensible way that tries to be as equitable as possible and accessible as possible, that we’re actually building and changing the culture of the way that we think broadly is a society that grades and academics are incredibly important, but the way that we treat each other as human beings is even more important.

It’s something I always feel like I try to instill in my kids as I am teaching them about what’s important in life, it’s not always getting the perfect test score. It’s about are you being kind to your classmates? Are you having these, are you being inclusive? Are you doing those sorts of things? And I hope as a society, that’s actually the way that we’re moving. So we’re starting to see that momentum across higher education that people are saying. There’s actually difficulty with some of the existing standardized tests and measures that they use. So what else is there? What else is important in how we’re selecting our teachers or our engineers, our lawyers of tomorrow?

Do you see the Casper as a complement to the existing aptitude tests or as a potential substitute? [48:53]Well, I don’t think it’s a substitute-

Situational judgment test, I should say. [49:06]Yeah. Situational judgment test. I don’t know if it’s fully a substitute in that it’s not measuring the same thing. So if you are measuring-

I want to know that somebody can do the work required from a specific program. [49:17]Yeah. That’s a very, very different measure. Although I think that measure, the pendulum has swung so far that we’ve almost set our standards for that way too high. But I think when we talk about Casper, it’s that there’s a need to balance that we don’t just want academics. We also want to be looking at the whole person who’s applying. So it’s about having other measures that allow us to really capture not just how absolutely intelligent you are, but who you are as a human being, because those two things combined, that’s going to make you successful. And if you need support in one of those areas, then how can we support you?

This has been absolutely amazing. My last question is, what would you have liked me to ask you? [50:04]Maybe some of the misconceptions about Casper?

I just set myself up to answer a tricky question. So I think people believe that it’s just a barrier or a hoop to jump through. I want to convey that the reason we originally developed this is to make sure that as much of the whole applicant is actually included in the admissions process as possible. That you aren’t just your grades, you aren’t just a data point on an academic test that you’re much more than that. And we really, really wanted to make sure that that was included. So that’s probably one of the misconceptions that I really want to get away from. Also, to highlight that we have accommodations in MD/DO programs. We have a fee assistance process for the application process. We’re actually encouraging other groups to develop these FAP programs so that we can honor them in the application process. So we really want to make sure that that’s right.

I will actually add one more thing because it’s such a hot topic right now, is ChatGPT. Because the question is, can you gain Casper with ChatGPT? And we’ve done a lot of research on this trying to understand that, and we’re excited because two things, one, the majority of our scenarios are so complex in their videos, so it’s harder to input in the time allowed to ChatGPT. The other thing, and I want to highlight this to people who may be using them for personal statements or other things, is that ChatGPT really just generates a very generic answer. And unfortunately has no passion in it. It’s not necessarily up to date in terms of the societal or cultural things that are going on that may impact your beliefs or perspectives on things.

So there’s a word of caution and the fact that what we tend to know is that because we’ve tried to answer Casper with ChatGPT internally, and that you don’t actually always score that well because it gives a very generic answer; it can have lots of mistakes in it and things like that. And the problem is when those mistakes are there, and you only have a time limited thing, you may get your response submitted in a way that actually isn’t reflective of you. So the best advice I can give folks is find a quiet space, make sure nobody’s streaming videos, next door to you, but just really try and be yourself. Because it’s when you come across as who you are as an individual, who you are as a human, your own experiences, and you really express those through your responses, your why, you would take course of actions, those are the people that excel.

Where can listeners learn more about Casper and DUET for that matter? [53:25]So if you want to just go to our website, which is acuityinsights.app, you can learn more about the different assessments. You can see some example Casper scenarios as well, so that you can feel familiar with it. When you sign up to do the Casper test, you can take the full practice test. So go on, learn more and don’t be afraid to reach out with questions.

Relevant Links:

• Casper Test
• Duet
• The Computer-Based Assessment for Sampling Personal Characteristics (CASPer)
• Situational Judgement Test (SJT): Everything You Need to Know
• Med School Acceptance Calculator

Related Shows:

• MD/PA/NP/DO/DDS/MPH: What Do They Require?
• Active Learning and Admissions at UVM’s Larner College of Medicine
• What was it like to be an ER doctor at the beginning of COVID?
• An Inside Look at The Geisinger Commonwealth School of Medicine
• Deep Dive into Penn Perelman School of Medicine: An Interview with Dr. Neha Vapiwala, Dean for Admissions

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Exciting changes to the curriculum at the Medical College of Wisconsin. [Show Summary]Dr. Jane Machi, Assistant Dean, Admissions and Recruitment at the Medical College of Wisconsin, explores the MCW Fusion Curriculum – and completing med school in three years.

Interview with Dr. Jane Machi, Associate Dean for Admissions at the Medical College of Wisconsin. [Show Notes]Welcome to the 511th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me today. Are you ready to apply to your dream medical schools? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s Med School Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to Accepted.com/medquiz. Complete the quiz and you’ll not only get an assessment of your chances, but tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. And it’s all free. Again, use a calculator at Accepted.com/medquiz to obtain your free assessment and those tips that I just mentioned.

Our guest today is Dr. Jane Machi, Associate Dean of Admissions and Recruitment at the Medical College of Wisconsin. Dr. Machi earned her MD at the Medical College of Wisconsin and is a proud alum, as you’ll hear shortly. In her clinical practice she specializes in pediatric emergency medicine, in addition to serving at MCW as an associate professor and associate dean of admissions.

Dr. Machi, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk. [1:43]Thank you.

Can you give an overview of MCW’s MD program focusing on its more distinctive elements? [1:53]Sure. The Medical College of Wisconsin has a campus in Milwaukee, and we have two regional campuses, one in Central Wisconsin in a city called Wausau, and then we have a campus in Green Bay. We’re a private institution. Our Milwaukee campus has 50% of our students from Wisconsin and 50% are out of state. And then our regional campuses are really geared towards replenishing the physician shortage that everyone is facing. We’re not unique in that regard, and the regional campuses were opened with the hopes that the students that we train there when they complete the residencies will return to Wisconsin.

Predominantly, those campuses are geared towards Wisconsin residents, so close to 80% on each campus come from Wisconsin. I think one of the most unique things about our curriculum in particular, which our students rave about all the time, is our scholarly pathways. On the Milwaukee campus, they have opportunities to dive deep into a topic that they’re really passionate about. Some examples are we have an urban and community health pathway. We have a global health pathway. We have a patient safety and quality improvement pathway. We have research pathways. The students can choose.

They go through a series of orientations to each of the pathways, and they choose and they do a scholarly project typically in their first two years. And then on the regional campuses, they also participate in a scholarly pathway, but there is one, and that is the physician in the community pathway. I should say that our Milwaukee campus is a four-year campus, so our students spend four years with us. The regional campuses are three-year campuses, so you get out of medical school one year earlier. The target specialties for those campuses are really primary care and psychiatry oriented, and those are the types of students that we try and recruit.

We know very well that students may change their mind once they get into medical school. They may find another field that they’re more intrigued by and want to spend more time in. There is an option for them to do a fourth year if it’s necessary, depending on the specialty that they’ve chosen. That’s a little bit about MCW.

Does the curriculum differ other than length at the three different locations? It sounds like Milwaukee has more breadth of offerings and the two regional ones are, as you say, focused on primary care, which I assume are family medicine, internal medicine, pediatrics. [4:24]And pediatrics.

So not OBGYN? [4:43]No.

Although we do have students from our regional campuses who do choose to go into OBGYN and many of them have done it in three years. Many of the specialties that you might think take four years to get into, we have had students match into residencies after the third year. A fourth year is not always necessary for all of our students. But some that require that additional year, like emergency medicine, there are special rotations that they have to do that they just can’t accomplish in three years. The curriculums are comparable. The regional campuses, it’s very accelerated, so there are no summer vacations.

On the Milwaukee campus, there are breaks and the regional campuses don’t have those breaks. That’s how we are able to get them to complete all their requirements in the three years. There are not as many electives; there’s no more time for electives. That’s really the big difference. We’re going to get to the curriculum in a minute, but the initial first two years, they’re done together with our Milwaukee students. The regional campuses participate in the same courses. They’re just doing it in their geographic areas.

They have their own Sim labs, their own anatomy labs, their own resources on each of the campuses, and they do their rotations in their regional geographic regions. The Green Bay students will stay in that area, and the Central Wisconsin students actually will spend time in hospitals that are in all different rural areas in that central part of the state.

Is there a focus on rural medicine in your region? [6:30]There is by virtue of their locations. A predominant shortage of our physicians in Wisconsin are those that practice in rural areas. One of our focuses is that we would like our students to be interested in rural medicine and want to return to a rural community to practice to fulfill those needs in our underserved rural areas.

What is the Discovery Curriculum that I was reading about in preparing for our call? Both the three- and the four-year options? The first two years are the same, right? What are the first two years? [7:03]No. I will say that the Discovery Curriculum will be replaced by the MCW Fusion Curriculum starting July of 2023. We’re about to start a different curriculum.

We’re really excited about it. It’s been a lot of hard work. There are many, many people that have been involved in developing this curriculum. Rather than having year one, year two, year three, year four, it’s actually a three-phased curriculum, which I think many medical schools have gone to, where you spend… It’s no longer two years of traditionally what we think of basic science. That’s been decreased in its amount of time. On the Milwaukee campus, they’ll spend 18 months doing their early clinical exposures. There are doctoring threads, learning communities. The scholarly pathways will not go away.

That’s the one thing from the Discovery Curriculum that is coming intact to the MCW Fusion Curriculum. The regional campuses will do it in a shorter amount of time because they don’t have summer vacation. They will get it all done in a briefer time. Phase two is basically what we traditionally think of as the core clerkships, and that’ll be 12 months. And rather than spending block times in specific rotations, they’ll be divided into areas like inpatient medicine, outpatient medicine, and then the surgical specialties, and they’ll spend a year doing those. And then the third phase is really sort of the self-discovery phase where students can really individualize their education.

If you want to be a surgeon, you can do a lot of different surgical things and rotations, electives, and focus that fourth year or that phase three… See, I’m in the fourth year. Phase three.

I have a whole new language to learn. In phase three, it’s really individualized and we’re really wanting to prepare our students to become really good residents, have them be prepared to start their intern year when they graduate.

That was a wonderful introduction. Let’s turn to the application. What is the secondary like? Does MCW screen before sending out secondary? I guess that should be the first question. Do you screen before sending out secondaries? [9:43]The only real screening that we do is basically for basic eligibility criteria. Making sure that their undergraduate credits are coming from either a regionally accredited US or Canadian medical school. That’s the biggest screening that we do. And then if you meet the eligibility criteria, you’re sent a secondary application and given that opportunity to fill it out.

What do you hope to glean from the secondary that you don’t get from the primary? [10:22]I think one of the big things that I think the secondary allows us to learn about the applicant is how they see themselves at MCW. Did they do their homework? Did they look on the web? Are there certain things within our curriculum that they’re incredibly interested in? How do they see MCW preparing them for the future? Everybody tries to hesitate to use the word fit, so I’m going to say align. Do they align with MCW’s missions? Can they see themselves being a student at our school? That goes for all of our campuses.

It seems like one of your big missions is supplying physicians specifically in Wisconsin. Are ties to the state really important for applicants to MCW? [11:06]Only on the regional campuses is that a specific thing that our goal is to have predominantly Wisconsin residents on those campuses. Like I mentioned before, the Milwaukee campus is 50% Wisconsin. That is where we cap it. Ties to Wisconsin aren’t necessarily something that we look at and identify and pluck them out of the pool other than, like I said, the regional campuses.

But it is about alignment, if you will, with mission, I guess, your strength and your approach to medical education. Is that correct? [11:49]Yeah, yeah. It gives us an opportunity to get to know them a little bit better. I know applicants spend… There’s a lot of essay questions that they have to fill out on every secondary that they’re invited to fill out and given that opportunity. But I think it allows us to see, do we see them as a student in our school? Is Milwaukee the right place for them? Is Green Bay the right place for them? Is Wausau the right place for them?

Do you ever recommend to a student, “I think you’d belong better at that campus than the campus you applied to,” or not so much? [12:29]No, we don’t do that. When the students apply, they rank which campus is their number one, number two, number three, whatever. We have three campuses, so they get up to three choices. We select students based on their choice. If they’re a Milwaukee number one, they’re looked at for the Milwaukee campus. If they are a regional campus number one, they’re looked at first for the regional campuses. Not everybody gets to interview.

Occasionally, we have students who rank a regional campus number two, and that may be where they are invited. Sometimes I think that we see that they are really in good alignment for what those campuses offer, and so we give them an invitation to interview on our regional campuses.

What is the role of the Casper in your evaluation process? [13:26]We use Casper as one data point amongst all of the many. It’s not something that we use to screen in, screen out. It is looked at as a non-cognitive variable amongst many other variables in our screening process, in our interview process, and then in that final decision. Sometimes things come out in the interview and the admissions committee will have a discussion about, well, their Casper score was whatever it is. That seems to be more who they really are. Sometimes it may influence a decision, but we don’t use it to…

You don’t use it for screening? [14:12]No, no, we don’t.

You don’t screen for interviews based on the Casper? [14:17]Not solely based on a Casper score. No. Not solely based on that. If they have a really low Casperscore, the admissions committee will… They screen every application of everybody that we invite to interview. They will see all of the scores and it’s a piece of data that they use. Does the writing match? If they have a really low Casper score, does it come through in some of their explanations of how certain experiences influence them? I’ve seen it in applications where it does align with how they write and how they think and how they’re portraying themselves. Many times it doesn’t. We don’t use it in any algorithmic, mathematical, magical equation.

You don’t use it in a vacuum either, it doesn’t sound like. [15:15]No, no. Like I said, it is just one piece of information amongst all that other information.That seems to be growing.

You have the primary, the secondary, the Casper, even before you get to the interview. What is a common mistake, and I’m not talking about typos now, that applicants make in approaching the primary and/or secondary application? [15:30]I think my pet peeve when I read applications, and I’ve been doing this for many, many years, one of the things that I notice is they will just list their shadowing hours. I did 65 hours of shadowing, and they don’t talk about it. We’re not a school that counts hours to give credit for a certain experience. To me, and it is one piece of advice I give to anybody that approaches me and wants to talk about how to apply to medical school, is to talk about what those experiences meant to you.

How did it shape you in some way? Are you going to use what you observed in your practice? What did you learn from the physicians? Those sorts of things. I’m always disappointed when I see many, many hours spent and no explanation. I don’t know how to interpret that. That to me is I think one of the biggest mistakes that I see.

I think that’s very valuable feedback. [16:48]Typos are always a big thing. I know you didn’t want to talk about typos, but that is a high stakes application. If you can’t take the time to make sure there are zero typos, one starts to wonder about, is it your attention to detail? Did you really care about it? How bad do you really want this? Especially if there’s many. You can forgive one or two, but I’ve seen applications that have had several on both the primary and the secondary. You start to wonder about the person.

I should probably not make it “except for typos,” but I think everybody, all medical school applicants know they shouldn’t have typos in their application, whether they succeed or don’t succeed. They may not realize the part about listing hours like a badge of pride… I still appreciate the point about it. They may not realize though that listing hours like a badge of pride is not really what you want. You want to see some insight into that experience, what did you get out of it. [17:27]I think the hours are important. It does tell us how much of themselves they invested and what they’re choosing to do. The admissions committee is quite savvy. They know who’s box checking. I think the number of hours is that cue. If you don’t write anything about the experience other than what it was about, I think it indicates perhaps, were they just trying to beef up their application in some way, whatever the experience is? Any of the experiences, they should be reflecting and thinking, what competency is this achieving for me? What have I gained? What am I getting out of it? Applicants should focus on things that they’re passionate about. We’re hoping they’re passionate about medicine.

What makes for a great interview? [19:02]I think what makes for a great interview is someone who’s actually authentic and true to themselves. I think the overly rehearsed, sometimes almost canned answers are a turnoff. I mean, you need to be prepared and you need to think about the questions. There’s certainly many places where students can get access to all kinds of questions that potentially they may be asked, but we’re looking for honesty, sincerity, and a good person. We have students do some of our interviews.

One of the things we ask them to consider is, would you want them to be a student in school with you? Do you want them to be your colleague? Being yourself is really important, but also preparing and knowing where you’re interviewing.

What is the interview day like? Is it in person at this point, or is it virtual like you and I are talking now? [19:57]We’re currently doing our interviews virtually on all of our campuses. We haven’t made any final decisions as to how we’re going to do this next academic year. We’re having discussions about what’s best. There’s pros and cons to both sides. Our regional campuses, they’re in smaller cities. If you’ve never been to Green Bay or Wausau, how do you know? Should you get to see this school that you’re going to attend? Milwaukee is the same way. If you’ve never been to the Midwest or to Milwaukee, getting to see the school, the campus, meeting people, there are a lot of benefits to having it in person, but we also see the other side.

It’s a high cost. We’re having on the Milwaukee campus applicants coming from all over the United States, Canada, and other countries. That’s a huge cost to the applicants. Our interviewers, it’s convenient for them to be virtual as well. They’re not having to travel between clinics and trying to get to the interview on time. It’s a lot easier for them to just log in from their office wherever they are, in whatever hospital. It does make it easy on both sides, but we haven’t made any final decisions about what we’re going to do next cycle.

Just very recently, for the first time since COVID, I talked to a med school admissions director who said that they are going in person. [21:28]Yeah, I think it depends. If you’re an in-state university and you are only recruiting from your state, the travel time isn’t that far. But for a school like ours where we have applicants coming, like I said, from all over, it’s harder and it’s costly.

MSAR says that the Medical College of Wisconsin received around 11,000 applications, I guess last cycle or the cycle before. [22:03]That’s the COVID cycle. We were in that dumpster fire altogether, where we’re like, “Where are these people coming from?” Yeah, we all lived in that.

How do you cut down from 11,000 to around 800? That’s less than 10%, and then to a class of 265 students. I assume half of that are Milwaukee and the other half are the other two campuses, right? [22:24]Yeah. On the Milwaukee campus, we have 220 students, because MSAR doesn’t… We can’t separate our campuses, so it’s one number. The 265 is our three campuses together. Milwaukee is 220 and we interview 650, 700. Most everybody applies to the Milwaukee campus regardless. And then on the regional campuses, certainly the numbers are smaller, the class sizes are much smaller. Central Wisconsin is about 20 and Green Bay is about 25. That’s another factor that applicants should consider is, do they see themselves thriving and flourishing in a smaller setting, in that smaller group?

The committee is one of the hardest committees at work at the Medical College of Wisconsin. They spend an inordinate number of hours screening. Like I said, everybody that gets an invite has been screened from page one to page whatever and given either yes, bring them in for an interview, no, not at this time. We have to magically come to 50 on the Milwaukee campus. It has to be magic. There is this mathematical magic that happens somehow. And then the same for the regional campuses, really selecting and looking really hard at our pool of Wisconsin residents.

Lots of meetings. Lots of screening. We probably interview about 100 or so for each of the regional campuses to get to those class sizes, depending on the campus. Somewhere 90 to 100 for each of those. That’s where I think you get to the 800 interviews because they added all up.

Going back to the different curricula at the different campuses, is the three-year option not available in Milwaukee? [24:38]No, it’s not available.

It’s only available at the… [24:49]At the regional campuses.

What makes an applicant jump off the page for you in a positive way? [25:04]I think one of the things, at least for me, is I peruse just through the experiences is some of the breadth and the depth. What have they done? If I’m reading their personal statement, do I get the sense that they’re truly passionate about medicine, not just helping people, but about medicine in specific? Can they communicate that? Looking at their road traveled, all of the other attributes that they bring to the table, those are the sorts of things that I tend to pay attention to. How have they prepared themselves? Is this really the career for them and have they really thought it through?

I think that’s one of the common things at the end of the day when the committee is saying yay or nay is a lot of it is understanding of medicine and do they really know what they’re getting into and do they understand and have they exposed themselves. I think that’s becoming more and more important as healthcare is changing. Do they understand interprofessional teams and how to work with all of the different arms, the nurses, the care partners, the pharmacists, the dieticians, the families for that matter? Can they see themselves being a part of that?

Because we’re not solo in a vacuum. If that’s what they think, then maybe becoming a physician isn’t for them because it is a collaborative affair for sure.

One of the questions I get constantly from applicants is, should I send an update letter? Should I send a letter of intent? And that sometimes varies from different schools at different points in the application process. What is your view? What is the process at the Medical College of Wisconsin? [26:58]The Medical College of Wisconsin accepts updates at any time. The applicant is welcome to go into our information portal and upload their information at any time. We’re not quite there yet because we’re still interviewing. But when we start to look at our wait list and we start to make decisions, because we don’t rank our wait list, as we build a diverse and all those sorts of things class and have a well-rounded group of students, sometimes those updates help us understand what have they been doing since they interviewed?

That application, the primary, one gets filled out so early that some things may have changed entirely. They may have said, “Yep, I’m going to be a CNA, and then that job didn’t pan out, but I ended up being an EMT,” or whatever their choice is. Sometimes those things change and letting us know, or they want to let us know why the Medical College of Wisconsin is in their top tier of schools to attend. I think it’s important. We allow them to upload at any time.

When do you stop sending out invitations? [28:24]When all the interview days are full, and sometimes that’s the week before the last interview day. We continually invite people. As the interview cycle goes on, applicants are starting to get… If they’ve interviewed in more than one school or they got into their dream school, they may decline our interview, even though they had scheduled one. That opens up a slot for somebody else. We just continue to run through until we get to the very last interview day. This year we’re interviewing through mid-March. On the Milwaukee campus, we have five interview days left, I believe. The regional campuses still each have a handful as well. So the Thanksgiving thing, I don’t know about that.

It’s open until the interview day is full and remains full. If someone drops out the week before, we’re going to try and find somebody to put in that slot. We certainly want to fill each interview day. We don’t want to leave slots empty for sure. I don’t know about that.

How do you view prerequisites taken at community college or two year colleges? [30:09]I think we view them like any other prerequisite. Most applicants who attend a community college will eventually transfer to a four-year university. It’s not so much the performance in the community college years, it’s that transition to a four-year university. We have many, many students who have attended community college. Sometimes that’s the way they get started in college because financially it makes the most sense for a lot of our applicants, unless it’s a technical college, something like that, that really isn’t focused, but getting prerequisites at the community college…

How do you view shadowing and virtual shadowing? Do you think it’s important that applicants shadow? And then what about virtual shadowing? [31:03]I think it’s important to learn from as many different physicians as you can and not be so narrow that you’re just with one specialty, because there are so many. As physicians, we all practice in a different way. I’m a pediatric emergency medicine physician, so I see kids and their families in the highest stressful environment, whereas another specialty may not be like that to that degree and to get that understanding that we’re not all the same. Where do you see yourself fitting in? What intrigues you and what interests you? I think we’ve managed the virtual shadowing, particularly since the advent of the pandemic.

We’re still seeing those effects on our applications and probably will for the next year or so. As hospitals have opened up and clinics have opened up, more and more of our applicants now are having the opportunities to do in-person shadowing. But we understand. Again, it’s about what did you learn and how did it impact you, no matter what the opportunity was. How is it shaping you as a future professional in medicine? I think it took us a little bit to adjust to what it all meant. We didn’t really understand. The committee didn’t understand.

We have a very fantastic recruiter who spent time orienting the faculty to all these different web shadowing types of platforms and what each offers and what did they actually get out of it, that sort of thing. We could understand a little bit more when we saw a certain shadowing website what they actually were getting out of it. I think we’ve adjusted pretty well.

But I’m going to guess that if in-person shadowing is an option, you would prefer it to virtual? [31:03]I would, and I would think an applicant would prefer it as well to be up close and personal and be able to ask questions and actually see the patient in live time. It’s nice that things have opened up. It’s given that opportunity once again for students to come and see what it’s like and what our jobs are like. You get to see all of the other people that we work with, the team, not just hearing how we work through a case problem, although that’s important, but you get to see the interactions and really understand what the day is like. Because I think that’s what shadowing is for, is to get a taste of what the specialty is, but learning from the physician what their day is like and why did they pick it.

I think sometimes in those virtual shadowing, sometimes there’s not always those opportunities because they’re attended by so many to actually get specific questions answered. I think relationships get built. I’ve become a mentor to students who were pursuing medicine just by virtue of them emailing me and saying, “Can I shadow you?” And then we just developed a relationship. I think there are those opportunities to gain insight from someone and develop a mentoring relationship, which is really important.

Listener question. Now, you are a physician obviously. If you are a med student today planning to apply in 2023, this upcoming cycle or the cycle following it, what is the one thing you would be doing to prepare yourself for medical school? [34:40]I think I’m going to sound like a broken record. I really think that it’s important to get exposed to as much of healthcare as you can. I think that’s really important. Take care of patients. See if that’s something you can do. I think those clinical experiences, whether it’s being a medical assistant, CNA, an EMT, where you’re actually having to show compassion and empathy for someone in their most vulnerable states, can you see yourself doing that and communicating with people in that regard? I think it can be very soul telling that if you can’t find that within yourself, then maybe medicine isn’t the right career for you, that you should think about something else.

I would say gain as much exposure as you can and as your schedule allows. Leadership is incredibly important. I certainly was not a leader. When I was an undergraduate, I didn’t do those things. But I think as physicians, we’re leaders of a team. Having those qualities and being able to lead a group, a club, or something at your college or your university is I think really important. Those are my two things, I think. There’s probably a lot more that I would say to do. I think most of all is doing something you’re really passionate about. Again, not the box checking and doing things that you think the medical school is looking for, because that’s not going to better you as a person.

Really be passionate about the choices you’re making. It says a lot. When you write about it, it’s going to shine through, as opposed to, “I just did this because they wanted me to. I didn’t get anything out of it, or it’s not something I see myself doing long-term.” It’ll come through in the communication.

I remember one of my first clients, my first med school clients, he got in and he called me afterwards and he said, “We wrote in one essay about my butterfly collecting. That was the one thing that every school that I interviewed at asked me about.” [36:54]Yeah, and that’s important too, as burnout is such a hot topic, well-being. In the MCW Fusion Curriculum, there’s a huge focus on well-being and career development. Med school is very stressful. How do you maintain your self-health and take care of yourself? It’s really important. To have those habits or those hobbies, it’s really important because it’s what brings you joy, and it’ll come through. I often will say, what do you do outside of science and medicine?

Because sometimes people just really haven’t done much else because they’ve been so focused on those sorts of things. But how are you going to handle the stresses if you don’t have an outlet in some way, shape or form, whatever it is?

What would you have liked me to ask you? [38:05]What would I have liked you to ask me? I think most everything you asked, but I think from myself and personally, because I am an alum of the Medical College of Wisconsin, I’m very proud to be an alum of the Medical College of Wisconsin, I think one of the biggest things that I have seen over the years and since I was a medical student is really, and this is going to sort of sound cliche, but I really mean it, it’s collaborative. It’s friendly. The faculty really care about our students and wanting them to be successful. We’re in their corners. We want to build relationships with them.

I gained so many mentors when I was in medical school just by the relationships I formed when I was on my clerkships or doing other rotations. It is really that environment that really attracted me. I was an older student, and so my outlook on life was maybe a little bit different than somebody who was fresh out of college. I wanted to be in a place where I felt like I was going to fit in and not be isolated. I wanted to be accepted. The medical college was a great place, and I’m just proud to be an alum. I could gush, but I’ll stop about that.

Relevant Links:

• Medical College of Wisconsin Admissions
• Are You Ready? Med School Admissions Quiz

Related Shows:

• The Questions You SHOULD Be Asking – ANSWERED! [Episode 500]
• MD/PA/NP/DO/DDS/MPH: What Do They Require? [Episode 499]
• Active Learn and Admissions at UVM’s Larner College of Medicine [Episode 494]
• What was it like to be an ER doctor at the beginning of COVID? [Episode 493]
• How To Get Accepted To Washington University School Of Medicine in St. Louis [Episode 485]

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Drawing on her knowledge as the Director of Masters Admissions at Carnegie Mellon Tepper School of Business, Kari Calvario shares everything students should know about CMU Temper’s MS in Business Analytics program. [Show Summary]Welcome to the 510th episode of Admission Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me.

Before we dive into today’s episode, I want to mention a resource at Accepted that can help you prepare your statement of purpose to masters programs in business analytics and data science. Download Five Fatal Flaws to Avoid in Your Grad School Statement of Purpose to learn how to avoid the five most common mistakes we see in graduate school statements of purpose, as well as how to write a statement of purpose that makes your story memorable and highlights your qualifications for your target programs.

Our guest today is Kari Calvario. She is the Director of Masters Admissions at Carnegie Mellon Tepper School of Business. She earned her bachelor’s in English literature and a masters in education. She joined Tepper in 2014 and has been there ever since. [Show Notes]Thank you for having me. I’m excited to speak with you.

We’re going to focus on the masters in business analytics programs at CMU Tepper. What are they? Can you provide an overview of both the full-time in-person option and the part-time online option? [2:02]Yeah, happy to. Thanks for that first question. The Tepper School, as any school, is always looking to diversify. We’re looking to grow. Our MBA program has been our flagship program, but I think one of the really great things about Tepper is we’re always looking to innovate. We’re always looking for what’s relevant. With lots of conversations with employers, with alums, we found that there was this need for professionals who have not only advanced analytical skills, but then the ability to combine that with a business sense and be able to communicate those business needs, to be able to convince about business needs. The Master of Science in Business Analytics program was initially born as our part-time online version, which still exists to this day, but it was born out of that need of wanting to provide students with analytical skills and be able to combine it with the leadership and business skills that they would need. As that program continued to grow over the last several years, it evolved and kind of branched also into our full-time MS Business Analytics program. Now we carry both of them. They are both really successful programs. It started with this need several years ago after the feedback that we got from employers, industry professionals, alums, and has now grown into two really successful programs.

Is AI becoming a more important part in the curriculum? I find it fascinating that it’s a program that really seems to combine left brain, right brain, that you’re highly statistical and quantitative, but it also is very much about communications. With all the publicity about ChatGPT, AI, et cetera, is it becoming a more important part of the program? [3:39]I don’t know that it’s a more important part, but certainly it’s an integral part of it. We wouldn’t be CMU if it wasn’t something that was a part of our program. I think the lens that our curriculum is taught from even something like a communication class is all taught from this analytical lens, which of course, lends itself to AI, to machine learning. When we talk about this intelligent future, this background that I have, we talk about data informed, but human decisions. Data can’t make decisions, but it’s such an important part of it.

It’s data informed, but there’s the human part of it. AI, you just mentioned, it’s this really unique combination of AI and the improvements that we can make, but we still need the human piece of it. And that’s what I think our program is really good at.

What distinguishes CMU Tepper’s Master in Business Analytics program from other BA programs, and what do the two programs, online and offline, have in common? [4:51]Well, you asked to distinguish first, so I’ll go with that first. I think what sets our program apart is that our parent school is the Tepper School of Business. This is something that we’ve been at the forefront of — analytical decision-making. It’s been the type of curriculum that we have. That we’re not a case-based school. Cases have a place for sure, but we are founded in making decisions based on data. When the business analytics program was formed, it was formed under that parent kind of guidance, I guess for lack of a better term. We’ve done this before.

Specifically when we first started with the online program, our part-time online MBA has existed for years and years and has consistently ranked in the top MBA program. From a delivery of the program, from a content, from the curriculum being a sister program at the Tepper School with the MBA program, that’s I think what sets it apart is this business analytics has become this hot topic and very well it should, but it’s something that has existed at the Tepper School and in the MBA curriculum for quite some time.

We’ve formalized that and, of course, have evolved at or else why would we have a different program than the MBA, but the concepts, the structure, the faculty who are teaching in the program, that’s all been really well established just at the Tepper School in general.

That was what distinguishes – what do the two programs have in common. [6:38]What did they have in common is just that, it’s the exact same curriculum. A question that I get a lot in admissions is, “Will my diploma say part-time? Will my diploma say online?” The diploma says Carnegie Mellon Tepper School Master of Science in Business Analytics, because the graduation requirements are the same, the faculty teaching in the full-time on campus program are the exact same faculty teaching in the part-time program. The only difference is in the delivery of the program and the time it takes to complete it. Because of that, there’s no differences between the two. It’s an MSBA from Tepper no matter how you earn it.

No asterisks. [7:21]No asterisks. Nope.

What are some of the problems or projects that MSBA students have tackled? Anything particularly memorable? [7:26]Yeah, and it’s hard to go in a single conversation, Linda, without saying COVID. It’s the world we all live in. Of course, I’m going to go there. But from a business school perspective and from a business analytics perspective, our students have had some really unique opportunities to do — we call them capstone projects or hands-on experiential learning — those sorts of things, that they’ve been able to work towards a specific goal.

Our students have worked with Campbell Soup before and forecasting when everybody went home or was sent home for two weeks in March of 2020, but then it turned into this long-term forecasting, how many people are really having soup over their lunch break anymore, when really it was a throw it in your lunchbox, bring it to work. But then suddenly these issues start. Our students are working on those hands-on trying to forecast, okay, some folks are returning to work, some are in this hybrid environment, how do we forecast the needs and the supply? We’re working with bigger, larger organizations, but also smaller private organizations.

Blood donors dropped during COVID, and so working with private organizations to stabilize just even something like blood donors and to get a predictable model of how do we stabilize getting our donorship back. It’s these wide-ranging projects, but they’ve been some really unique opportunities to be part of some really good things of helping companies get through this pandemic and things like that. They’ve had some really hands-on experiences that are really fascinating.

Now, you have the residential component. It’s a nine-month program, right? And then you have the part-time online program. Is there a residential component to the online program, and do the two programs ever meet? [9:11]Just from the nature of our building, the Tepper Quad is the home of the Tepper School of Business. There’s certainly an opportunity, but there’s no official overlap as in everybody’s all together for this one reason or not. For the 18 months online program, there is no required on-campus component. You can do the entire program online. Certainly though, campus is always open. There are opportunities. We call them immersion weekends. There’s not an academic component to it, but for certain times throughout the year, it aligns with the curriculum. There are these immersion weekends where online students can come to campus.

They spend Thursday night through Sunday morning. They might be meeting with their career counselor. They might be doing a leadership workshop. They might be doing some networking. There’s some really unique opportunities to come to campus, but not every student. We have some international students who maybe can’t travel, so there is no required academic component to those weekends, but they do have the opportunity to come here, be with their classmates. They’re with their classmates online Monday through Thursday, but really the opportunity to be in the same room together. There is that opportunity for the online program.

Are the classes for the online program on the weekend or evenings, or is it asynchronous, synchronous? [10:42]Both. Yeah, so both. We’re a good blend. We are both synchronous and asynchronous. I’d say it’s probably about 80/20 of synchronous. It’s mostly synchronous. Classes are Monday through Thursday. No Tepper student ever has classes on a Friday, but Fridays tend to be their busiest day. It’s group work. It’s recruiting. It’s catching up. But classes are in the evenings, Monday through Thursday. There are typically two sections offered.

Usually it’s like a 6:00 to 8:00 and then 8:00 to 10:00. It’s the exact same class, but two different sections. They have the ability to go to those classes, and it roughly shakes out to an East Coast time and a West Coast time, but you don’t have to…

That’s what I was thinking. [11:32]You don’t have to live in Pittsburgh to go to the 8:00 time zone if it’s better for work. What we’ve done is most of the students in our online program are working professionals. Maybe they have a stable work schedule. Some might be traveling. Some might have later hours. If they’re logging into a class, we want it to be worth their while, right? We want them to have interaction with their professor. We want them to interact with their teammates.

There’s going to be projects. They’re not logging into a live class and taking a final or something like that. The asynchronous classes, which they know in advance, can watch this video, react to the prompt, or things like that. If they’re coming to the synchronous classes, they’re really beneficial.

What kind of academic background are you looking for in applicants to these programs? [12:18]Yeah, that’s a great question, and it’s another question that ‘s probably my second most asked question.

It’s a very frequently asked question. [12:32]As I mentioned, we’re an analytical program. We’re a quantitative program. It’s kind of like a double-edged sword where we celebrate that and we’re really proud. We’re really proud of the curriculum we have. But then I think we kind of push back a little bit that it doesn’t mean one size doesn’t fit all. One undergrad major, one course preparation. What we do look for though is aptitude. We want you to be able to come into our program to be academically successful. You’re going to have quantitative classes. You’re going to have some programming classes. You’re going to have these analytical classes.

Have you seen programming before? It doesn’t mean you have to be this expert coder in R and Python, but are you familiar with it? Have you maybe taken some Coursera courses? There are backgrounds, I think, that naturally fit. A lot of engineers are naturally attracted to Tepper. Maybe it’s software engineers, computer scientists, but it’s more about the types of classes that you’ve taken. Have you seen some more math classes? Have you seen some programming courses? It doesn’t mean you had to have majored in it, but just so that you can transition into… Your very first semester, you’re taking probability and statistics, which uses R.

It’s more about the aptitude. We dig really deeply into applications. Yes, you’re an economics major, but I’m going to dig into your transcript and see what classes have you taken. What have you done in your work? Do you have any certifications? Is there anything or what is there that lets me think, yeah, you can come here and you can be successful in the program knowing there’s resources and there’s always going to be help, but what’s the aptitude that you have? Sure, experience with technical skills, but it’s not a requirement.

I was a political science major undergrad, and I took the minimum math that I had to take. If I were to wake up one morning, and I was a lot younger, and I decided I wanted to go get a masters in business analytics, would you advise me to take some statistical classes, some quantitative classes, and probably some programming classes, either at my local community college or extension or Coursera or something like that? [14:17]Right, yeah. Exactly right. Spoken from an English major when you introduced me. I took the minimum to graduate and moved out of that school. What I would say is you don’t have to send me a transcript from Carnegie Mellon that says you got an A. There are other ways to show it, but I’d say, “Hey, here’s what you’re going to see in your first semester. Here’s what you’re going to see in your first year. Let’s talk about some things that can prepare you for that.” It’s more of a conversation. Folks are always welcome to give our office a call. We can’t go through an application and say, “This will get you in. This will not get you in.”

You understand that. But we can say, “Hey, I would really love to see you. Go take an online computer science course and get a little more familiar with these basic programming languages,” or go out at a calc course or a linear algebra course or something like that, or write me an optional essay in your application that says, “Hey, I don’t have these formal classes. I was a political science major, but here’s what I’ve been doing in my work since. I’m using Tableau. I’m doing these different things. I’m building these really complex reports in work. I’m self-taught, but I’ve got the skillset.”

I wouldn’t know that if you didn’t put it in your optional essay. But once I read it, that’ll prepare you sometimes even better than a class that you took 10 years ago.

What about experience? We’ve talked about academic background. What about experiential background? It seems like the online program is a little bit more geared towards those people with full-time work experience, and the full-time program, the in residence program, is more of a pre-experience program. Could you dive into that a little bit? [16:00]Sure, and you’re exactly right, Linda. Again, it’s kind of the evolution of the program. When we began, and it’s our part-time online program and it has really grown year to year, we’ve got about 50 students in it each year, which is what I think is a really healthy number, a lot of those folks see the need for business analytics in their current company and they want to use the degree to move on to more senior roles, or maybe making an industry shift, but they want to take the skill set and use it to move into become that subject matter expert, become the analytics expert in their company, get that promotion, reach that next senior level.

When the full-time program launched and it’s more pre-professional, that was feedback from employers saying, “Okay, here’s kind of the types of jobs,” and perhaps we’ll talk about that, but the types of jobs we see are more for folks who are just going to start out in the industry. They’re pre-professional. Maybe you’ve had a couple analytics internships, or you’ve got a year or two as a data analyst or something like that. But given the curriculum and the recruiters that we are talking to are saying, yeah, you’re going to be highly employable, but it’s not going to be that I’m already established at this company and I just want to move into a more senior position.

It’s going to be, I’m just starting out in the industry. I know I’ve got this really, really desired skillset, and that’s going to help me really break into this new industry.

For the pre-professional program, do you like to see relevant internships? [17:43]I do. Yeah, I do. I think it’s natural, right? Whether it’s an internship in banking… Are we looking for quants? Are we looking for data analysts? Not specifically. We’ve seen folks who’ve had internships in investment banking. One of my favorite applicants interned at Disney but was doing some analytical work at Disney. I think it can go across industries, but versus me, to keep using myself as an example, I interned at a library. I did nothing with analytics. I loved it, but I probably don’t have the relevant internship experience to be looking at my time at my local library.

While we’re not picky or we’re not just kind of like, well, you weren’t working at a SaaS company, or you weren’t doing something like that, it’s not that. It’s more of, oh, that seemed like it was really impactful, or you returned for two summers. You interned the summer of your junior year. You returned the next year. That obviously means that your performance was well received. That’s a good indicator of potentially how you recruit and how you interview. There’s different ways to do it, but seeing those relevant internships helps.

Now, I’m going to guess that occasionally a student struggles in the MSBA program, right? Do you know why they struggle? Is there any pattern that would help you I guess not admit people who struggle? [19:07]Yeah, yeah, that’s a completely fair question. It’s a reality, and we have support. We have our academic office, our program office. I think there’s a couple different things. For our part-timers is time and the time commitment. It’s an extra 20 hours a week on top of most likely your full-time job, maybe a family, all sorts of things. I think it’s just being realistic. It’s not about intelligence. The folks that are applying to our program are all super, super bright, but maybe they’re not used to spending 20 additional hours. When you’re an undergrad and that’s your whole world, maybe that’s what you can devote to it.

But when you’re juggling different real adult experiences, to add on 20 additional hours. I think it’s our job in admissions, whether it’s the admissions interview, whether it’s just the materials, whether it’s just phone calls I have with somebody who’s interested in the program to say, “Hey, you’re going to get a lot of support here and you’re really bright, but I need you to know too, you’re going to have to put in some work. It’s not a light program. Like we talked about, you’re here part-time, you see online. It’s a lot of work, but it’s 18 months and then you’ve done it and you’ve got the degree and you’ve moved on.”

I think it’s just being really intentional. We try in our office to be really authentic and to say, “Hey, we really want you to be a part of our program. Let’s have a conversation. But I’m going to be honest with you, you’re going to have to put in some work to be successful in this program.” The full-time classes, we’re recruiting or doing admissions right now for the second cohort. From a Tepper standpoint, less data, but the sentiment remains the same of this is the big leagues. This is a masters program. You can do really well in an undergrad, but you’re going into a masters program now and you are living on your own and doing this sorts of things.

I think, again, it’s being upfront with candidates, whether on our website, whether in one-on-one conversations, of saying like, “We are going to support you to the nth degree, and we need to see some on your end too.”

Let’s move into the admissions realm, okay? Can you describe the application process for the MSBA? [21:39]Yeah, I sure can, and it’s exactly the same. I’ve talked a little bit of like, well, for online, it’s this. For full-time, it’s this. Same application. You literally just select which program that you’re applying for. It’s a pretty standard application process, Linda. It only takes about 30 minutes from start to finish. I always joke that the reason I know that is I made my little sister submit an application and time it. Like any good big sister, I was like, “Hey, I need a neutral party to tell me what are the roadblocks in our applications,” so I made my little sister do it. It takes about 30 minutes from start. That doesn’t account for selecting your two recommenders, and I can talk about that in a second.

But start to finish from as far as all the data you’re providing, the information, plugging in your academics, 30 minutes. Like most places, we’re going to ask for transcripts. We’re going to ask for two letters of recommendation. We use an internal form/ it’s not a free form letter. But two, they can be academic, or they can be professional. We’ve got a short answer question and a video essay, which is new to this year, and has actually really, really helped on the admission review side because it gets candidates in front of us sooner. We see their presence. We can hear about their goals. We really, really like that addition we’ve had.

It’s an entirely online application. It can be started and stopped at any time. It auto saves. You can start it out of curiosity one night, and then finish it a couple nights later. It’ll always be there for you. We’ve tried to make it as straightforward as possible and as painless as we can. All the standard things, transcripts or resume, two letters of recommendation. We do have a test waiver policy. It’s not like you can tell me yes/no for a test, but you submit a simple essay saying, “Hey, here’s why I think I can apply in lieu of the GMAT or the GRE,” and we review that and let folks know, and then we review applications.

In terms of the test waiver, do they have to submit the test waiver so many weeks before the deadline, at the deadline, or how does that work? [23:40]Nope, just part of the application. We’ve got an upcoming application deadline. Within 10 business days after that deadline, we let folks know. It’s not a, “Yes, you’re in. No, you’re not in,” but it’s a, “Hey, we gave you a waiver.” It’s not an indicator of admission. It’s an indicator that you’ve provided enough evidence that you don’t need to submit the GMAT or the GRE. Or “hey, we need you to either give us a test or go take the GMAT or the GRE. Let us know the timeframe that you might do it.”

If somebody’s not granted a waiver, it’s not the end of the road for them. There’s just some more steps. Sometimes folks have a test score, and they’re able to provide it to us. Others need a little bit of time to study for it. They might push their application to a later round, which is completely fine with us.

The essay question asks about “your objective in pursuing the MSBA.” CMU also asked for up to the two-minute video, which you mentioned, which asks them to discuss your post-MSBA goals. Now, some applicants may feel that the questions are duplicative. Can you provide guidance on how to make the most of each question? [24:32]Sure. Thank you for that. I think it might actually be a little duplicative, honestly, and maybe we need to wordsmith that a little bit.

What we see a lot with the written essay question is folks saying, “Here’s why now. I’m one year out of undergrad, or if I’m part-time, 10 years out of undergrad. I’ve had conversations with my supervisors.” It’s more of that of. Perhaps it’s better to frame it as, what’s your motivation to pursue an MSBA at this time? I think that’s driven by where you are professionally, where you are in your life. To say, okay, I’m a recent graduate and I know that business analytics is the hot item right now. We get a lot of folks, “I wanted to come to CMU for undergrad, and now I have this opportunity.” I think the written essay is more asking for, what’s your motivation at this point to apply?

The video essay, we worked really closely in partnership with our Masters Career Center. It’s the same essay that we ask our MBA candidates as well of, talk us through your goals. Of course, with MSBA, it’s likely, I’m going to move into an analyst role. I’m going to work for this company. But the thought that goes into it of thinking through, here are some companies that I think I might want to work for. We don’t specifically ask a plan B, but we give some guidance on maybe share a plan B, show the pencil versus pen argument.

The video essay is the opportunity to say, “Let me talk to you about my goals and talk to you about the companies and why I think I’m interested in that, but I’m also open to knowing it might take me a couple steps before I reach maybe my top company.”

Is it more long-term? [26:45]Yeah, yeah. It’s more encompassing, but maybe we’ll do some updating of those words, Linda.

What can an interviewee expect if lucky enough to be invited to interview? [26:56]You’re exactly right. Our interviews are by invitation only. We don’t have the capacity to interview everyone. We do a pretty nice 30-minute interview. It’s conducted by a member of the admissions team, so myself or any of my colleagues who are admission officers. It’s a behavioral style interview, so a lot of, tell me about a time when, give me an example. We always recommend candidates brush up on the STAR technique, the situation, the task, the action, and the result. It just helps to keep answers succinct, but I think too is we’re very conversational. Of course, we have a goal of the interview.

We’re trying to assess fit for the program, but it’s not meant to be a test. How I am today is how I am in an interview. I want to get to know these folks. Because our interviewers, they’re figuring out if they want to come just as much as we’re trying to assess if they will be. I would say be prepared with maybe three to five specific examples at work about leadership, about teamwork, about a time you were challenged, things like that, and allow the interviewer to lead. 30 minutes flies by. We’ve got things we need to get through, but there’s always time for questions at the end.

It’s 30 minutes, allow your interviewer to lead, but ask one or two questions at the end that you can’t really see on the website. I’ve had folks, Linda, ask me about my thesis from my masters degree because it’s on my LinkedIn. I don’t even remember my thesis from my masters degree, but it has shown me that they’ve taken the time to just dig a little bit deeper than the website, or I’ve been at Tepper a long time. I’ve been here nine years. My favorite question to answer is the growth that I’ve seen or where I see the program headed. That to me shows this candidate is really being thoughtful about the questions they’re asking instead of what’s the tuition or something that’s easily accessible on the website.

When this show airs, there will be still two rounds available for this application cycle. March 26th and May 7th are the upcoming or will be the upcoming deadlines at that point. Is an applicant in a disadvantage if they apply in these later rounds, and are they better off waiting until next year? [28:56]Yeah, totally fair question. Absolutely not at a disadvantage. We’ve got the four formal rounds for a reason. We don’t have our fingers crossed behind our back. If you’re a competitive applicant in round one, you’re a competitive applicant in round three. We don’t have a cap of the program that we’re trying to hit. Especially as this program is growing, we want the folks in the program who are, of course, going to be academically successful and be able to get the jobs that they want, but who are going to be good contributors to the classroom, that are going to be team players, that are going to be leaders.

Sometimes those folks don’t apply until round three or until round four. Absolutely not at a disadvantage. The only not even caveat that I add is if you’re an international student, the reason we recommend earlier is because of the visa process. Did we admit folks last year in the later rounds and did they get visas? Yes, but that’s a process out of our hands. My recommendation for an international student would be earlier, but absolutely you can apply in a later round. You just have a little bit less time to get your visa if you’re admitted.

How does the MSBA differ from an MBA with a focus on analytics or a masters in management with a focus on analytics? [30:25]There’s two simple ways. The first is it’s more technical and it’s more applied. What I mean by that is it’s a lot of business classes, but it’s business classes taught with the lens of analytics. I think I referenced it before, but I always think of our communication class. They’re all taught with this eye towards being analytics professionals. In a communications class, they focus on the science of storytelling and using data to do storytelling. It’s a communication class by nature, but it’s with an analytic lens.

Some of our core classes at the business school aren’t even taught as electives for the MBA program because they’re all specifically looking more towards that analytics lens. That’s the first, and then it’s just the how do you apply analytics? It’s one thing to learn about it, but then the application of it in these experiential learning courses to be able to say, “Okay, here’s this industry. Here’s how we’re going to apply analytics to it.” It’s in the application and then just being more technical overall.

What jobs are graduates of the programs getting, and how does CMU Tepper help them find those jobs? Are you seeing on campus recruiting coming back to Carnegie Mellon? [31:44]Yeah, we are. It’s really interesting, Linda. Just recently, the Admissions Office moved and we combined with our Masters Career Center in one suite. It’s been really, really exciting because it’s almost like the front end with admissions where the folks are talking and then to see the end, but we’re seeing the recruiters who are coming in. We’ve got a shared lobby space. That’s just my silly anecdote. Recruiters are coming to campus. We’re in our first cohort of full-time MSBA who are recruiting. They’re in the process of getting offers. We’re still kind of waiting and seeing what type of jobs. Certainly our prediction is they’re going to get early career analytics jobs.

They’re going to get business or data analytics jobs. Our part-timers I think are getting promotions. They’re moving into more senior analyst roles within their companies. But with these full-time folks, I think we are seeing that. But the support that they get is twofold. They get support from the Tepper Masters Career Center, so they get one-on-one coaching from the Career Center. They get resume reviews. They get mock interviews. They get all of these things in addition to at the Carnegie Mellon Career Center level.

They’re able to work with both the Tepper Career Center and the larger Carnegie Mellon Career Center with access to career fairs that happen at Carnegie Mellon, specific analytic career fairs that are happening. The levels of support are quite robust from one-on-one coaching all the way up to unique access to Carnegie Mellon analytic career fairs.

Does the part-time program also have access to the Career Center, or just the full-time? [33:30]They do.

Absolutely. Yep, absolutely they do. They’ve got the one-on-one coaching. They’ve got the access to recruiters. A part-timer can formally recruit. They do not have to only come to the program if they’re looking to stay at their company. They absolutely can recruit. Their resume becomes part of Tepper’s resume books. At Carnegie, we’ve got partnerships with over 200 recruiting partners who are coming and recruiting. They get a Tepper resume book. Even our MSBA students, their resumes are part of this resume book that employers can access.

What about applicants who are planning ahead for next fall? They’re not going to apply this cycle. How can they prepare to apply successfully? I mean, would that go back pretty much to doing the internships, demonstrating the aptitude if they don’t have the classes? I mean, what would you recommend? [34:14]Yeah, I would recommend all of that. I think those are excellent points, Linda. I think too is to try and connect with the community as well. We’ve got student ambassadors. It’s on our website of folks who are current students in the program who don’t report their conversations back to admissions. You can have these conversations of what is life like? What’s the class?How can I prepare. They also though don’t have a bearing on admissions. They’re truly just neutral conversations, but they’re really great, because they’re living and they’re breathing the program. Talk with a student ambassador. We’re probably in the next couple weeks going to get some campus visits up and running.

Those will go throughout the spring, throughout the summer. Come to campus, eat lunch with the MSBA students. If you’re a part-time student who can’t get to campus, we’ve got our online class visits. They’re live Tepper classes. You’re kind of a fly on the wall, but you can see the interaction between faculty and students, between classmates. In addition to taking that objective look at, okay, are there any classes maybe I could take or I could audit, if you’re a college senior and I guess you’re in probably your spring semester, but maybe there’s an opportunity to tack on a class. Of course, there’s that.

But I think in addition to that is, how do I really learn more about my fit with this community? Whether it’s the nine-month full-time or the 18-month part-time, it’s a quick program. It’s going to make a lasting impact. You want to make sure that this is the right place for me. Take advantage of the resources that we provide to immerse yourself in Tepper.

What question would you like to answer that I haven’t asked? [36:06]That’s a great question. I think it would be, “I don’t have the background you’ve talked about. Can I come to Tepper?” I talked about that a little bit, but the answer is I don’t know if you can come. I don’t know. It’s a holistic application review. Can you apply and should you apply? Absolutely. Do not count yourself out because… I think I’m very much like a list maker. I have this, check. I have this, check. I can go, okay, now I can go apply to Tepper. It is holistic. We don’t have our fingers crossed behind our back of, yes, we talked about aptitude. I don’t mean to repeat myself, but I don’t want folks to count themselves out of this program because there is no one set recipe for admission.

What if I’m not an engineer? What if I don’t have this class? What if I don’t have that? Well, then let’s have a conversation and let’s talk about what you do have and what can help make you be successful. My answer might be or my suggestion might be, hey, you might need to go take a class or two just so that you get here and you can be successful. My answer’s not going to be, “Don’t talk to me. Don’t apply.” We pride ourselves on being really approachable. We want to talk to folks. We want to share more about the program. We’re trying to grow our program, both of them. The part-time has been around several more years.

We always want to move and grow forward. If we had the same people applying, we can’t get diverse thought, we can’t get diverse backgrounds, and that doesn’t make for an enriching program. Should I apply to your program if I don’t meet the certain mold? Absolutely. And if you’re not sure about it, give us a call and we’ll talk about it.

You’ll give them some advice as to what they can do to prepare themselves? [37:52]Yeah, exactly.

Relevant Links:

• CMU Tepper Full-time MS in Business Analytics Program
• CMU Tepper Online MS in Business Analytics
• 5 Fatal Flaws to Avoid in Your Grad School Statement of Purpose – free guide

Related shows:

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Test optionality seems to be coming to law school admissions. Top schools have withdrawn mostly from the US News rankings. What does it all mean? We ask a law school admissions expert for his input. [Show Summary]Welcome to the 509th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. Before we meet our guests, I’d like to highlight the featured resource for today’s show. It is the Accepted Law School Admissions Quiz.

Interview with Steve Schwartz from LSAT Unplugged podcast and YouTube channel [Show Notes]Are you ready to apply to your dream law school? Are you competitive at your target programs? Acceptance Law School Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/law-quiz, complete the quiz, and you’ll not only get an assessment, but actionable tips on how to improve your qualifications, plus it’s all free. Again, use the calculator at accept.com/law-quiz to obtain your complimentary assessment.

Our guest today is Steve Schwartz of the LSAT Blog and the LSAT Unplugged podcast and YouTube channel, which we are going to link to from the show notes at accepted.com/209.

Steve graduated from Columbia University in 2008. In high school and college, he tutored students in a variety of subjects and also helped prep test takers for standardized tests, including the LSAT. However, he really began to focus on the LSAT when he was applying for law school. He founded the LSAT blog in 2008 and never looked back. Today, 15 years later, he has helped thousands master the LSAT, get into law school, and sometimes secure scholarships worth tens of thousands of dollars.

So Steve, thanks for coming back to Admissions Straight Talk. You’ve been on the show several times before, and I’m glad you could come back. [1:58]Thanks so much for having me on, Linda. It’s great to be back as well.

Okay, great. Now let’s start first with the changes on the LSAT specifically. The ABA in November moved closer, and it keeps moving closer, to making entrance exams optional for law school accreditation, which means that law schools will be able to choose whether to require the LSAT, GMAT, GRE or any other exam from applicants basically before making an admissions decision. Can you go into that change a little bit more, and what can we expect? [2:07]Yeah, sure, of course, Linda. So there has been a big test optional movement in higher education, of course, for quite a while now, and the legal profession tends to move a bit more slowly than others, a bit more bureaucratic, perhaps, and so it took this long for it to finally reach the LSAT and law schools and the American Bar Association.

There have been a few attempts, or at least a few proposals in the past to remove the so-called LSAT requirement, but I’m pretty sure this is the first time it’s ever made it this far, and at this point, we’re giving it the full rubber stamp to remove that requirement. At this point, it’s largely a formality, so we can expect they will remove that requirement in February 2023.

It will go into effect when? [3:10]That’s a great question. A lot of folks are confused about this. There was a last minute amendment added to the proposed revisions stating that their changes, if they go through, will not go into effect until the fall of 2025. So this is all a rather drawn out process now.

Okay, and when it goes into effect, assuming it happens, which is likely, although you said it’s going to go into effect until2025, but when it goes into effect, how will law school admissions be affected, and do you think they’re perhaps even being affected now or in 2024 and 2025? I mean, until then. [3:29]Yeah, for sure. So law schools will be free to remove the LSAT requirement and not require any standardized test at all. However, I suspect that most will not remove it and will keep the same policies in place as they have for many years. Of course, in the long term, who’s to say? But I would expect that for the next five, 10 years at least, most will keep the LSAT requirement, because they find the LSAT useful in making decisions.

What I’ve seen in the business school world in particular, I’m less familiar with undergraduate testing requirements, but in the business school world in particular, there’s been a whole continuum of experiences. So I think some of it, you’re already seeing in the law school world, right? They’re taking a variety of tests. Most law school applicants are still taking the LSAT, but they will accept the GMAT, they’ll accept the GRE, some will accept even the MCAT, which is a medical school exam, but what you’re seeing in the business school world is some schools, particularly the elite ones, are requiring an exam, usually the GRE or the GMAT. Some schools are taking a plethora of exams. Some schools are not requiring exams, and some schools are offering waivers, which means that the applicant makes an argument to the school why they shouldn’t have to take the exam, and the school either accepts or rejects it. If they accept it, they don’t have to take the exam, and if they reject it, they do have to submit an exam score.Do you think that that might be an intermediate step, the waiver policy, in law school admissions? [4:17]I love the waiver concept. I haven’t heard it discussed in the law school admissions context, but I could see that being a way to kind of maintain a soft requirement. So who’s to say what they’ll do? I’m sure that schools, law schools look at what other graduate institutions do, like business schools, and so they’re probably aware of this option, but I do think that law schools will require the LSAT or some other exam like the GRE in the vast majority of cases, and there is a key difference, I think, for law schools versus business schools, which is that there’s a big exam at the end of law school, the bar exam, and so law schools need to make sure their bar passage rates don’t drop too much, meaning they need to accept applicants they think are likely to do well on the bar and pass it.

Right, and the LSAT is predictive of bar passage? [6:08]I should be specific here. The LSAT is the strongest single predictor of first year law school grades. LSAT plus GPA is a stronger predictor of first year law school grades than the LSAT alone. So it’s only been studied to and shown to predict first year law school grades specifically. I would extend that a bit and say probably is a pretty good indicator of passing the bar exam as well, although perhaps not as strong an indicator, but the question also then is, if you remove the LSAT, what factors do you have left to consider in evaluating an applicant’s likelihood of passing the bar?

Right. The bar is a difference, but again, I know that what the business schools have done is they, largely forced by COVID… I think the move to test optionality was starting in business schools before COVID hit with lower ranked schools. When COVID hit and the tests were not available for a couple of months, and then it was only online, and in certain countries it was very hard to get, and of course, business schools were much more international than law schools. The schools kept the waiver policies, and they found they started testing, “Well, are the people who take the test doing better or worse in business school? Are they doing better or worse in getting the job after business school?” They, to a certain extent, reverse engineered it, and the results are not all out, but the schools that I have talked to say that they have found other measures that are as predictive or almost as predictive as the GMAT or the GRE.So I’m wondering if, especially starting lower down the law school food chain, are they going to start waiving the LSAT, which will jack up their application volume, and then reverse engineer it to see, “Well, is there going to be a drop in bar passage rate? Are these people not going to do as well? Are there other ways that we can assess them?” I know that for decades, certainly since I’ve started doing this, law school admissions, more than business school admissions, have been very much about GPA and LSAT, GPA and LSAT, GPA and LSAT. Do you have any thoughts on that? [6:46]Yeah, I do. You’re right that law school is unique in that admissions is largely number based in contrast to business school, which I understand is a bit more holistic looking at work experience, for example. The question is… I’m sure that it would be possible to reverse engineer it such that if the LSAT didn’t exist, maybe you could look at all the other factors combined and then make a prediction out of that. The question is, how do you do that at scale?

Especially… If you look at numeric factors alone, LSAT and GPA, remove the LSAT, GPA becomes more important, of course, but how do you deal with grade inflation? How do you deal with applicants who come from different universities and colleges with different majors? In pre-med, for example, I’d imagine the majority of applicants are majoring in something science related.

The majority. Absolutely. [9:09]I would guess. Not everyone, of course. You can major in English and go to medical school, of course, but I think most are doing science. In contrast, you can major in literally anything and go to law school, and you, of course, see probably more humanities than STEM, but there’s a pretty wide range there, and the grade inflation question, I think, is a huge one. The executive director of LSAT, Kelly Testy, in these hearings with the ABA, she made the comment that GPAs are so inflated, it has to be virtually meaningless, which I thought was a bit hyperbolic, but I also kind of see her point.

No, that’s a very narrow range of GPAs that’s admissible at certain programs. It’s tiny, and it’s probable… Well, it is just tiny. I think that’s that… Let’s leave it at that. Let’s say test optionality, or at least the waivers, comes to law school. Who would you think should take the exam, regardless of the school’s requirements? [9:39]I would imagine that the majority of applicants who are admitted would be taking the LSAT, because there is still the factor of the US News rankings, which we can talk about in a bit if you’d like.

We will. [10:27]It’s a way for applicants to demonstrate that they’re serious about law school and not doing this on a whim or, for lack of a better option, that they’re investing themselves and are going to invest themselves not only in the application process, but in law school itself, versus, “I’m going to apply to every graduate program and see where I get in, and then choose my career path entirely based on that.

I would also say that, for the person who has a low GPA, and whatever low GPA means to the schools you’re applying to, it’ll differ from school to school, a good LSAT score can really help you get in, and it may help you get a good scholarship, and we’ll go back to that… We’ll get to the US News rankings and the changes there, but again, for people with excellent GPAs, it may be relevant experience, whether it be volunteer internships or work experience, if the LSAT isn’t required, it may be that you can celebrate not having to take the LSAT, but if your grades leave something to be desired or you don’t have that experience, the LSAT could be a way of showing commitment. It could be possibly –. again, it remains to be seen – a way to get a scholarship. [10:47]That’s exactly right. If your GPA’s lower than you would’ve liked it to be, or you just want to do something to improve your chances, given the emphasis that law schools place on LSAT and GPA relative to other factors, improving your LSAT score is the number one thing you can do, and I’m not going to say it’s necessarily easy, but if you can improve that number significantly, you’re going to maximize your odds of getting into a better law school, getting more scholarship money, or both, and again, with the rankings, law schools look to grant scholarships based on LSAT and GPA scores, because that’s how they raise their status in the rankings.

Are there any other changes that you see coming down the pike in LSAT land? Specifically the LSAT. Again, we’ll get to the rankings in a minute. [12:07]Yeah, sure. The other big thing happening in LSAT land is the logic games section. The logic games section will almost certainly be undergoing some major changes in the next couple of years, and they’re basically looking to remove the current section and replace it with something else that might be called logic games, might be just simply be called analytical reasoning, which is the formal name of this section, but the previous prep materials and the previous exams that are released covering logic games will likely not be nearly as useful, and I can get into why, if you’d like.

Sure. [12:43]Sure. So basically, there was a pre-law student, I think of a couple of pre-law students actually a few years back who sued LSAT. These were blind applicants, and they said that they were at an unfair disadvantage on the LSAT, because given that they were not able to see, they could not benefit from diagramming logic games the same way that most other test takers do. I don’t know if you’ve ever looked at the logic game, but it’s quite hard to do logic games without some diagramming or some scratch paper.

I haven’t looked at the logic games, but I occasionally play logic games, and I know I use a pen and paper. [13:13]You kind of need to…

Not the LSAT Logic games, the newspaper kind of logic games. [13:16]For those who aren’t familiar, imagine if you’re doing trying to do Sudoku in your head or crossword or…

Right, exactly. [13:27]It would be prohibitive just because there’s too much information at once. LSAT logic games really push the limits of your short-term working memory, meaning you can’t really do this in your head unless you’re a total genius. So I think these folks had a point, and so they sued LSAC under the Americans with Disabilities Act, and LSAC settled the lawsuit and agreed to complete research and development into a new version of the test without the current logic games section within the next four years. That settlement was in fall 2019, bringing us to fall 2023 as being the deadline by which they need to complete that research and development, and they have already started that process. We see it publicly.

Okay. All right. Is the new section likely to be easier? [14:08]That’s a great question. I don’t think LSAC can really make things easier, because they’re really sticklers about the standardized nature of the test, and so they can’t make it so that the new logic games versions of the test as a whole with the new logic games are easier than versions of the test with the old logic games. If they were going to make it easier, they’d have to adjust the raw score conversion charts, AKA the curve, accordingly, so that people were not at an advantage taking one version over the other.

The LSAT is not going away for at least two years, and probably longer. What are your top tips for LSAT prep given that the test is still required? The LSAT is still the most common aptitude test for law school admissions. Yes, many law schools are accepting the GRE or the GMAT, but when I’ve interviewed law school admissions directors, they all say that the overwhelming majority, usually 90% plus, are submitting the LSAT. So what are your top tips? [14:39]Well, my first tip would be, given everything we’ve discussed here, we’ve discussed a lot of changes coming down the pike in a couple years. These things are changing, but as I said, also, nothing’s really changing. The LSAT is still going to be required at the vast majority of schools for the foreseeable future. We’ll see what changes down the line, but if you’re listening to this now or in the near future, you’re applying the next couple years, take the LSAT. It’s almost certainly going to be required, and take it seriously. The logic game section is another thing to talk about too.

If you’re listening to this now and planning on the LSAT in the near future, I would highly recommend taking the LSAT before the logic games section changes. As I mentioned, the previous prep materials for logic games will no longer be relevant. The changes are big enough that you’re going to need new study approaches, and we don’t have enough information yet about what that new section will be like. LSAT themselves probably doesn’t even know yet, and so what that means is that you can’t study for a section if you don’t know what it’s about. When the new version does come out, sure, I’ll work diligently, I’ll pull all nighters to put out new stuff as quickly as possible, but there still won’t be the same volume of information out there about the new thing, because by definition, it’s new. In contrast, you have about a hundred released exams, meaning 400 logic games of the current format you can use to study from. So take advantage of this opportunity to get the LSAT done now. Make 2023 the year that you crush the LSAT.

Sounds good. All right. Now we’ve alluded to the other big piece of news in law school admissions, which I don’t think is as significant, actually, but it’s still big, and that is the withdrawal of a growing number of top law schools, starting with Yale and Harvard, from the US News rankings. Can you go into the background on that? Accepted’s blog has a list of the top 50 programs and whether they are participating in the rankings or not, and I’m going to link to that from the show notes, accepted.com/509, but for now, can you go into the background, what caused Harvard and Yale to leave the rankings, and, of course, other schools to follow their example? [16:28]Yeah, of course, sure, and those schools are constantly changing. I haven’t even been keeping up with it. So it’s great that you’ve put together this list of the law schools that are staying in or not staying in. That’s important information for folks to know, because it does dictate, to some extent, how law schools may adjust their admissions policies going forward. Although I agree with you that this isn’t as big a deal as the other things we’ve been talking about.

The background is that Yale and Harvard, vocally, they made public statements on their websites and to the media that they were no longer going to submit information to US News, they were no longer going to participate in the rankings, because they disagree with how US News ranks different law schools, and I can get into why, if you’d like.

Yes, please. [17:43]Sure. So there were a couple of big things that stood out. One is that these schools do not like the fact that US News effectively penalizes law schools for public interest fellowships. The way they calculate who’s employed after graduation. The public fellowships didn’t really make the cut, and so schools are at a relative disadvantage if they granted more public interest fellowships.

The other big thing is that, as we talked about, law schools give out scholarship money, merit aid based on your LSAT score and GPA, and so they were saying they don’t like that US News incentivizes schools to grant lots of merit aid to students to raise their status in the rankings when that money could have gone to need-based financial aid instead.

Those are the two big, big complaints about it, and another one that came up, I think, was that because the LSAT and the GPA are so highly regarded by US News, it was preventing law schools from taking a more holistic approach to evaluating law school applications. Certainly was the points that you made, but I think the third point was also something that was in there, and as you indicated, withdrawing from the rankings means that they’re not going to participate, they’re not going to submit their own information, and their deans are not going to respond to the surveys, but US News says it’s going to continue to rank law schools. So how will this withdrawal affect applicants? [18:25]Yeah, sure. So US News, of course, like anyone, is free to rank law schools. I can rank law schools, you can rank law schools. No one can stop us from making rankings of things, and so if US News no longer gets this self-reported data from law schools, then they need to adjust the rankings in some other way. They can put placeholders or use previous data and kind of make their own estimates and projections of what’s going to happen going forward, or they can radically change the rankings entirely to focus only on publicly available data that law schools submit to the American Bar Association, which I think is probably the best way for them to go and what they should have been doing all along, given that there’s been so much malfeasance and cheating, essentially, on the rankings by a number of schools, both law schools and undergrads and all also sorts of schools.

And business schools. [19:47]Business schools too. A recent law school example-

I think medical schools. [19:50]All of them, I think. All of them, and they have a big incentive to do it, and who can check. There’s no validation, there’s no investigations. So USC Law School most recently got in trouble for cheating on the rankings. Columbia University, the undergrad, got in big trouble for cheating in the rankings, and their ranking dropped as a result, and so I think relying on self-reported data, on publicly available data, US News can do quite easily, because this information is available already in the American Bar Association’s 509 reports.

I assume that data includes average LSAT and average GPA for the entering class? [20:21]Exactly. They have to supply the median LSATs and GPAs, and so given… I think they could quite easily make adjustments, US News could do that, and then it would really just become more neatly organized… I think you mentioned this when we were talking on LinkedIn. It’s like a neatly organized place for applicants to look at all the data, but of course, they shouldn’t place too much importance on these small differences in rankings.

No, I have said for a long time that the rankings are great storehouses of data, but the only ones ranking schools should be the applicants. [20:47]That’s exactly right.

Because they should have their own criteria for what’s important to them in a law school. If it’s placement at a Big 10 law firm, Manhattan Law Firm, well, okay, then that’s important to you, then figure out what schools are going to get you that. If it’s public interest law, then what schools are going to get you that? If it’s certain programs or externships or internships, then go for that location, whatever it is, and a lot of that information can be found neatly organized, well summarized in the US News rankings, but not all, and I think Einstein once said, “Not everything that can be counted matters and not everything that matters can be counted,” and I think that applies to rankings and evaluating law schools also.Yeah, but I think that there is a place for a storehouse, and it is valuable, it provides value to have that storehouse of data. Do you anticipate that more law schools will refuse to participate? I think right now, it’s about 15 that are not. [21:00]Yeah, I think I’m almost certain that more schools will drop out of their rankings. I think that they’re kind of fed up with it. They’re kind of fed up with playing the rankings game, giving out lots of scholarship money and not being able to look more holistically, as you mentioned. At the same time, though, if US News is still ranking them anyway and applicants are still looking at them anyway, their influence may not diminish that much.

I think it’s also worth mentioning that there is a problem with… Let’s say law schools stopped granting so much merit aid because they want to give more need-based financial aid instead. Schools like Yale and Harvard with enormous endowments can do that quite easily. They can make law school free for everyone for quite a while if they wanted to. Of course, they don’t, but other schools that don’t have such large endowments, where their budgets are more closely tied to tuition dollars in particular, if they were to hypothetically stop granting so much merit aid, who would stop them from just keeping that merit aid for themselves and keeping the scholarship money for themselves?

US News… As much as I don’t love the influence that US News has, I think it actually plays an important and often overlooked role, that it gives schools reason to give out financial aid on the basis of LSAT scores and such and GPAs, and as we mentioned earlier, the biggest way you can improve your shot at scholarship money and getting into better schools is through increasing your LSAT score, which is, in turn, largely due to the US News rankings and the role that they play.

I think also recruiters, law firms will look at it in terms of where they’re going to send recruiting people. [23:32]Certainly.

Do you have any concerns about the change? Do you see any negative impact? [23:40]That really is the number one impact, negative impact that I’m looking at here. I work with pre-laws, I’m looking to help people get into law school and get lots of scholarship money, and so I’m taking the applicant’s perspective on this rather than the school’s side. So for me, I’m a bit concerned to see that the merit aid could diminish as a result of this, but I’m overall not really that concerned at the end of the day, because I do think that the rankings will still play an enormous role. They’ve been around for decades. I think they’ve been around since 1990 or so, for law school, and so I ultimately don’t really…

I think it’s earlier. [24:16]Even earlier. Yeah, I think Yale’s been the top school for the past… Since 1990, before that’s been different, but I think given the importance that they have in public perception, I think the headlines around this will pass, and schools may get some good publicity for saying they’re not going to participate, but US News will still rank them anyway. So ultimately, I think this is another one of those things that will not really have a significant impact in the long term.

I had some concerns, and I think the ABA reports probably alleviate most of them, that this could lead to less transparency, that they’re not expected… Obviously, the rankings themselves, as you said, there was occasionally cheating, but I don’t think it would be good for applicants, let’s say, if they didn’t know the average LSAT and they didn’t know the range of LSAT scores, they didn’t have salary data for graduates.Again, if people are going into public interest fellowships or public interest law, and somebody is interested in public interest law, I think that information is really, really valuable. That was my one concern, but I think if you have the ABA, one of the 509 reports, I think is what the title is, then that’s going to keep the law schools honest and transparent.Is there anything you would’ve liked me to ask you? Anything else going on that you feel is relevant for law school applicants at this point you’d like to comment on, or changes? [24:41]No, I think you were quite thorough and we pretty much covered everything we set out to cover. Again, I would just emphasize to folks that the logic games changes coming down the pipe, I would estimate that they’ll announce a new game section that will start in June 2024, since LSAC’s “year” begins in June, and June 2023 is too soon, because they haven’t done enough research and development yet, but I do think that 2023, if you’re listening, you hear this now or watching it now, make this the year that you crush the LSAT, because you want to take it with the current format. The devil you know is better than the devil you don’t.

Steve, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your taking the time to speak with me and our listeners. Where can listeners and LSAT test takers learn more about your coaching? [26:13]Yeah, of course. Thanks for asking me. So again, I’m Steve Schwartz, LSAT Unplugged. I’m pretty easy to find online. I’m quite active online. I have the LSAT Unplugged YouTube channel, the podcast, Instagram, even TikTok, Facebook. I’m out there, and of course, if you would like support with the LSAT, I have a variety of options including live online classes, on-demand videos, coaching. You can reach me at help@LSATunplugged.com. I’m glad to help.

Related Links:

Former Boston University Law School Admission Officer Christine Carr (current Accepted consultant) – YouTube
LSAT Blog
LSAT Unplugged – podcast
LSAT Unplugged – YouTube Channel
The Law School Admissions Guide: 8 Tips for Success – free download
Law School Admissions Quiz

Related Shows:

What to Do if the LSAT Becomes Optional
Acing the LSAT
​​How to Get Into Duke Law
How to Get Into UVA Law

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The post LSAT and Law School News [509] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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Everyone has challenges when applying to top law schools. But combine non-traditional work experience, a low stat or two, and a growing family, and this applicant faced significantly more than the usual hurdles. He overcame them all and got into his top choice program. Let’s find out how he did it, and how he’s doing now. [Show summary]

Hello and welcome. Thanks for joining me for this the 507th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. Are you ready to apply to your dream law school? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s law school admissions quiz can give you a quick reality check and not only that reality check, but an assessment and tips on how to improve your qualifications. Plus, it’s all free. You can use the calculator at accepted.com/law-quiz, to obtain your complimentary assessment. Again, that’s accepted.com/law-quiz Grew up here in LA. Went to school in New York, Yeshiva University. I met my wife and we got married in LA, but we lived in New York for a couple of years and then the weather was just too much. And you can’t compete with the weather out here, so we moved back where our families are.to obtain your complimentary assessment.

I’d like to welcome to Admissions Straight Talk, Yitzy Frankel, who is a 1L at UCLA law. Yitzy earned his bachelor’s in psychology from Yeshiva University in 2013 and a master’s in marketing from Sy Syms School of Business in 2018. Before joining Sy Syms, he worked as the marketing and social media manager for fencing in the schools, and that’s fencing as in the sword stuff, not the stuff around your backyard. And while fencing in the schools, he managed fencing programs in 10 states. After earning his masters, he worked at a Jewish boy’ high school in Los Angeles as Director of Admissions and Marketing, and he did that from 2017 to 2022, when he left to join UCLA Law. Yitzy, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk.

Can you tell us a little bit about your background, where did you grow up, that kind of thing? [2:11]

Grew up here in LA. Went to school in New York, Yeshiva University. I met my wife and we got married in LA, but we lived in New York for a couple of years and then the weather was just too much. And you can’t compete with the weather out here, so we moved back where our families are.

Before we get into the admissions and law school stuff, what do you like to do for fun? Just a little background. [2:33]

I guess I have three main hobbies. Fencing, obviously.

Okay. [2:41]

I still fence competitively. Having a little bit of time with COVID and studying for the LSAT, but I still consider myself a fencer. I love biking and I’m a Van Gogh enthusiast.

Wow. [2:54]

My goal is to see every Van Gogh painting in the world.

There was a big Van Gogh exhibit here last year, wasn’t there, or two years ago? [2:57]

There was one in Santa Barbara recently. And actually, for my break, I’m flying to Detroit for a couple of days with my oldest daughter. We’re going to go see a Van Gogh exhibit there.

Now let’s get to law school stuff. How did you get interested in becoming a lawyer? It’s quite a change from psychology and marketing or being an admissions director at a high school. [3:12]

It’s something that I was interested in when I was 16 in high school and then kind of came back. I’m 34 now. So definitely kind of a second career. But basically, I had a teacher, Mr. Wasserman in high school that gave me a John Grisham book, and I fell in love with it. And at the time, I think there were 16 or 17, and I read all of them in two months.

Oh, wow. [3:42]

Yeah, I know. Since then, I’ve learned the legal field is not like the novels. But that’s definitely what piqued my interest. And I definitely always wanted to be a lawyer since then. The reason it took me so long is because I got to college and for various reasons, my GPA suffered. No good reasons, nothing that that’s excusable, just my lack of focus. And so I decided, I guess law school isn’t for me with my GPA.

I later learned that with a good LSAT and a strong application, you can really make up for a lot. But I kept pushing it off, and I got married. I’m like, I should have done it before I had my first child. I should have done it before. Then I had twins in the middle of COVID. I’m like, “Oh, now it’s for sure too late.” And then I met someone who was four or five years older than me who had decided enough pushing it off, time to go. And he went back to law school. And that kind of really inspired me that if he could do it, and I could be done before he started, age wise what’s my excuse.

So is he out now? [4:44]

He might be in his last year. I don’t remember exactly when he started.

So you mentioned the low GPA. Did you face any challenges, other challenges I should say, besides the low GPA when you were applying to law school? [4:52]

I guess other than my age and having three kids and it being a little bit different to take off three years to go to law school, it was really the low GPA and I just knew I needed to have a perfect application.

So two questions. How did you address or attempt to address a low GPA? Obviously, you can’t change it. Was your master’s GPA higher? [5:15]

Yeah.

Okay. So that was already good. [5:26]

That definitely, I completed that in I think 2018. So it was definitely not something that I did on the side just to show that I could get a high GPA for the purpose of law school, though I’m sure that probably works. But it was working with Brigitte at Accepted, I was really able to take responsibility for why my GPA had been so low even though it was so many years ago. And to show them between my career and between the masters and obviously, with a good LSAT score that I really can handle the rigors of law school and don’t judge me just by my GPA. That was old.

That’s basically what you have to do. And in terms of the LSAT, did you take it once? Did you take it more than once? Did you get a tutor? Did you take a course? [6:04]

I took it twice. I studied with a phenomenal teacher. But with three kids in a full-time job, I made the mistake of taking it the first time right after the holidays in September, October time, about a year ago. And not having a minute to breathe and just the final stretch of studying right before is very important. I didn’t do as well as I expected. And Brigitte actually encouraged me to, if you think you can do better, go for it. And thank God I took it then in January. So I was also a late applicant. As far as law schools go, I applied in the end of January, early February.

Oh, wow. That is late. [6:49]

Yeah.

But you still did it. [6:51]

Yeah.

All right. And in terms of making your application perfect, what did the perfect application mean to you? [6:53]

At a very detailed level and making sure every period is in the right place. But it was more working with Brigitte, just to craft a coherent story, whether it was the personal statement or an addendum about my GPA. I don’t know if I have the most impressive story. I’m sure they hear some really impressive stories, and people have had impressive experiences and lives, but I spoke about what was personal to me. And it was really well crafted. Most people apply to law school once, so it’s something that’s like, why not talk to the experts? And Brigitte was an expert in non-traditional applicants. She, I believe, worked for UVA’s admissions department with people like me, like let’s give them a second look and see what’s there. She kept me from making mistakes. Really funny example was I kind of took what I thought was a self-deprecating crack at admissions officers because I was working in admissions. And she’s like, “Who do you think is reading your application?” Think about that. So she really helped me to present the best version of myself, I think.

That’s a great answer. Thank you. How did you choose where to apply? Obviously, you applied to UCLA, you got into UCLA. But that was one of many schools that you applied to. So what were you looking for in law schools? [8:10]

I applied to 17 schools.

You had several acceptances too. [8:22]

I had seven acceptances, six wait lists and three rejections.

That’s amazing. That’s very impressive. [8:31]

Yeah, I know. I was shocked. Honestly, UCLA was the dream. I’m thrilled that I got in. It was very funny. I guess as a splitter, high LSAT, low GPA, I was either wait listed or accepted with a lot of scholarship. Basically, I chose schools that were obviously in LA. I blanketed the LA area. But also just because I’m a religious Orthodox Jew and I’ve got three kids, I picked schools where I thought I was competitive that were in decent enough Jewish communities.

Got it. [9:08]

So one good example is Wash U and St. Louis.

Yes. [9:12]

Phenomenal school. They gave me a ton of scholarships. They were very generous and a good Jewish community.

Why did you choose UCLA? Was it mostly family or was it something about the program? [9:19]

I guess for two reasons. Honestly, it made the most sense. It was here in LA. Both our families are here. Very highly ranked, but that was the reason, that was number one. But learning more about it and having gone there, it’s just such a phenomenal school. It’s known as one of the schools where everyone’s collaborative. There’s really no backstabbing. Older students, and even my classmates are just happy to share outlines, for example.

That’s wonderful. [9:50]

Yeah, the teachers are just of the highest caliber, and they also have several different institutions where you can specialize. Just this coming semester, I’m going to be taking trademark law with an expert in the field.

And that kind of leads to my next question. You’ve obviously very happy at UCLA. But what do you like best so far about your UCLA law experience? I know you just finished finals, so it might be… And what do you think needs to be improved? So there’s two questions there. [10:08]

I mean, now that finals are over, that’s what I like best about it. Honestly, I’d say the caliber of the professors. They’re really all trained at some of the best schools in the country, and they’re phenomenal teachers.

Oh, that’s great. [10:41]

Great. So I really just enjoyed the classes. Even the class I enjoyed the least, civil procedure, I just enjoyed going to class every day, even though it was really difficult for me. It was by far the hardest class for me. The cases are just thrilling in my opinion. There’s really nothing to complain about. There’s so much to do, there’s so many programs going on. Obviously, as a 1L, I don’t get a lot of chances to take part in it. My biggest complaint is that there’s a reading room all the way up in the fourth floor tower, and the couches are so comfortable and just looking out the window, watching the sunset can kind of lull you to sleep. They’re a little too comfortable.

I know what you mean. Not about those catches, but about being comfortable when reading and all of a sudden, oh, well. Now, you obviously haven’t been in school for several years. What surprised you about your experience at UCLA Law? [11:25]

So I obviously wasn’t the best student, but I found that by prioritizing my schedule, and also, I kept a living document, a rolling document that I would edit that was kind of open on my computer at all times of the next week to week and a half of what was coming up. And I would mark what I’d read, what was coming up. That kept me on track. So I was always able to keep up with the readings and the assignments and whatnot. It was tough. It was tough sitting in class for hours a day at first, but then I really got into it.

And you adjusted. [12:12]

Yeah.

You adjusted. Do you have a specialty you intend to go into? [12:14]

For now, I’m looking more in the, there’s the Ziffren Institute at UCLA that has, it’s like media, entertainment, technology, and sports. So I’m going to take classes in that area, starting with trademark this coming semester. And we’ll see. I think the kind of intellectual property side of things is thrilling.

It’s a very interesting field to be sure. Now, you mentioned that you have a family. How old are your kids now, may I ask? [12:38]

My oldest is four and a half, and there are the twins and they’re identical, so it’s really cute. They’re about two and a half.

Wow, okay. That’s a handful. Two and a half year olds are a panic. [12:52]

Yeah. My wife gets all the credit. I studied for the LSAT for 11 months and she watched the kids every Sunday I was studying. So she really gets all the credit. It’s really not easy to make a career change this late in life. And she’s the one that really gets most, all of the credit, really.

I am sure. It sounds to me like it was very much a joint effort. [13:17]

Yeah. She’s the one who called me and encouraged me.

Do you feel that having a family at this point is making your law school experience more difficult or is it giving you focus, motivation? Which way is it? [13:23]

I don’t want to say it’s an obstacle in a bad way, but it’s definitely, my kids need attention. I wish I could see them more. I spend as much time as I can with them. I’m off now, so for a month I’m just spending every day with them. It’s not easy, but it’s definitely manageable, with prioritizing. Set aside my work to get it done. When I finish class at two, until five, I go home, spend an hour with them until they fall asleep and then finish the rest of my work. And they’re young. Hopefully, they won’t remember it too much.

Well, sounds like you’re also disciplined and you are making time for them. So far, are you glad you made the decision to pursue the JD? [14:05]

Oh, thrilled. I cannot be more happy. I thought the classes were going to be harder. I thought they were going to be boring. It’s like I’m finally doing what I’ve wanted to do for years.

Oh, that’s wonderful. [14:21]

It’s not something that I have to slog through and it’s like it’s going to be a tough three years, but just get through it. I’m really enjoying my time.

I guess you’re doing what you really wanted to do, like you say, for years, even if it’s not like a Grisham novel. [14:31]

Yeah. True.

What advice would you have for those interested in pursuing a law degree as a non-traditional candidate? [14:39]

A couple of things. Number one, what I found for me, the question that anyone needs to answer, and I’ve had a bunch of friends come up to me since I posted that I’m going back to school this late in life, some of them, not for law school, one wants to do an MBA, one wants to make a career change. They just don’t think it’s possible this late in life because they don’t see people doing it. The one question I think you need to ask yourself is, how long will it take you to get there?

For law school, it’s three years. For medical school, it could be 10 years. Will you wake up in three years and regret not having done it? If the answer’s yes, then it’s an easy question. You got to figure out the logistics. And that was for me. I’ve thought about medical school. My brother’s a dentist, an orthodontist, and I’ve thought about it. I won’t regret 10 years from now at this stage in my life not having done that. I know I was going to regret not having gone to law school when I was 35 or 36.

So that was, I think, one piece of advice. But I think you had two. [15:38]

Oh, that was one. And number two, and this is like, I could rant about this for an hour. Put everything you have into the LSAT. It can really change your life. A single point could be the difference between getting accepted to your dream school or getting rejected and could be worth thousands of dollars in scholarship. For me, I had in some ways the benefit of the pressure of knowing that my LSAT was going to determine 99% of it because my GPA was so low. So I kind of had this knife to my throat for a year where I was either studying for the LSAT or feeling guilty that I wasn’t studying for the LSAT.

Oh, gosh. [16:22]

And it really, for 11 months, which is longer than most people. Also, keep in mind, I had a full-time job. I lived with the question of whatever the decision is, will this help me do better on the LSAT? So whether it’s going to a movie Saturday night. Obviously, don’t take my advice too seriously. Don’t miss your cousin’s bar mitzvah, once in a while because you want to study, study, study full time. But I definitely didn’t see my friends for a long time and I just focused on studying for the LSAT and it paid off.

What would you have liked me to ask you? [16:59]

That was it, about the LSAT. I really think a lot of people, including me for years, think that it’s an IQ test and it’s really not. It’s really a learnable test. And I think a lot of people study wrong.

What’s studying wrong or right? [17:15]

For example, if a student, let’s say someone who’s a freshman in college and knows they want to go to law school and they’re like four years early, I’m going to start studying now. And they study a little bit every day. To me that would be like if you want to run a 26 mile marathon so you run a mile every day. When you get to the marathon, you’re not going to be able to do the 26 miles. So another thing where you trust the expert and go to people who teach the LSAT well, which is also another area. But it’s really something that’s a learnable skill. And don’t tell yourself, “Well, I’m not in the top tier of intelligence, so I probably can’t get the top tier of grades and scores on the LSAT.” And I think with the right motivation and really looking at your mistakes and being your own coach and beating yourself up about it because no one else will do it, can really help you to maximize your potential on the LSAT.

All right. Well, you obviously did. I want to thank you so much, Yitzy, for taking the time to join me today. I really appreciate your sharing your experience and perspective. Now, before we started the interview, you and I had talked where people can reach out to you via LinkedIn…[18:09]

Absolutely.

I actually reached out to one of your guests who had offered people to reach out to, it was Chris Melcher. He’s a professor at Pepperdine. And he, at the end of his interview, offered anyone want to reach out? I took him up on his offer and he helped me on a couple of my essays.

Wow. [18:44]

So honestly, if anyone has questions about being an older parent, non-traditional applicant or just want to talk about the LSAT, I’d love to talk to them. Yitzy Frankel, Y-I-T-Z-Y F-R-A-N-K-E-L. Find me on LinkedIn. And if I’m not studying, I’ll respond.

Okay, great. And we’ll link to Yitzy’s LinkedIn profile from accepted.com/507, which are the show notes for today’s show. So again, Yitzy, thank you. [19:03]

Thank you. And I know I’ve said this before, but thank you to Accepted and to Brigitte who really, that’s like my other piece of advice, go to the experts. They know how to apply. They know law schools and don’t mess it up.

Related Links:

Law School Admissions Quiz
Yitzy Frankel on LinkedIn
Work with Brigitte Suhr, Yitzy’s consultant.

Relevant shows:

What a Law Career is Really Like
UCLA Law School: How to Get Accepted
How to Get into USC Gould School of Law
Bonus Episode: USN Rankings, LSAT, and Laid-off Workers: What Does it All Mean?
How to Get Into Georgetown Law

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The post How a Non-Traditional Applicant Gets Into UCLA Law [Episode 507] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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Did you know that Cornell Johnson has the largest Executive MBA program in the United States with four distinct flavors? I didn’t, but let’s learn together about Johnson’s EMBA program, its unique distributed classroom, and how to get in from its dean and director. [SHOW SUMMARY]

Welcome to the 506th episode of Admission Straight Talk, Accepted’s podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Before I dive into today’s interview, I want to invite you to download Ace the EMBA, expert advice for the rising executive. This free guide will compliment today’s podcast and give you suggestions on how to choose the right EMBA program for you, differentiate yourself from your competition in a positive way and present yourself effectively as a future business leader, who will bring credit to any program that accepts you. It gives me great pleasure to have for the first time on Admissions Straight Talk, Dean Mark Nelson, the Anne and Elmer Lindseth Dean and Professor of Accounting at Cornell Johnson Graduate School of Management, and Dr. Manoj Thomas, Senior Director of EMBA and MSBA programs, and the Nakashimato Professor of Marketing, also at Cornell’s Johnson Graduate School of Management. Dr. Nelson and Dr. Thomas, welcome to Admissions Straight Talk.

[Dean Mark Nelson]

Thanks for having us.

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

Thank you, Linda, delighted to be here.

Dean Nelson, what makes a Cornell Executive MBA program different from other EMBA programs? [1:55]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

That’s a great question, Linda. I mean, first off is the fact that we have these four different flavors of a Cornell MBA. And that’s very intentional, it’s been developed over time. We started initially with our Metro EMBA program, which is based in New York City, and which is focused on a general management EMBA, providing that jurisdiction, that market.

Second, then we have our Americas EMBA program, and that’s a really unique program where we’re reaching out to executives throughout the Americas using our own unique approach to distributed learning. And then third, we created an FMBA program, a collaboration with Tsinghua University, a finance-focused EMBA, and that’s bilingual and offered in Beijing. And then fourth, we have our MBA/MS in Healthcare Leadership program, which is providing both an EMBA and also an MS in healthcare from two great institutions, the Johnson School and the Weill Cornell Medicine.

And so I go through that because the unique combination here is that we’ve got a general interest EMBA in New York, we’ve got something focused in the healthcare sector, we’ve got something that’s a unique and leading program in China, and then this Americas program serving the Americas. And I see that as a pretty special and unique roster of great EMBA programs.

Now, when you think about what’s the spine that relates all these together, there’s a couple things that I’d shout out, and then I’d maybe ask my colleague, Manoj, if there’s anything he wants to add in. One is that in all of these programs, we have a team-based learning approach that we think is really, really important. And by that I mean that we have students that, of course they’re performing individually, but they’re also on small teams, they’re coached, they’re assessed, they’re given feedback.

So we think of business as a team sport, and the ability of these executives to deliver exceptionally well in that context, we think it’s really important and so we’re very intentional about how we go about that approach. It is the case that in all of these programs, the students are working on problems that they’re addressing at work right now, so they’re able to put it into practice, and we think that team-based approach is really key.

And I guess the other thing that is unique, not only about the EMBA programs but about Cornell is that we have our Cornell Tech campus in New York City. So we are based in Ithaca, New York, but what a lot of people don’t realize is that we won the opportunity from then Mayor Bloomberg to create a new tech-based campus in the heart of New York City and have done so.

And so we have two of our programs, Metro and Healthcare Leadership, based at the Cornell Tech campus and all of our programs end up having residential sessions there. So to be able to offer programming at a campus that’s been built from scratch in the last 10 years, that’s very, very forward-focused and future-focused on the digital economy, that’s pretty unique and special, and we’re very proud of that.

That’s great. Dr. Thomas, do you want to add something? [5:28]

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

I think Mark covered it very well, I’ll just reiterate what he said. I think what really makes our suite of MBA programs, EMBA programs, unique is first that I cannot think of any other popular university offering so many distinctive options for students depending on their specific needs. So that’s one thing that really makes it unique.

And the other thing is that we have realized quite early on that MBAs in general, but Executive MBAs in particular, they need not just to learn the skills, but they need the transformation of behaviors. They want to evolve as individuals, as people, and we’ve created a pedagogy that does both.

How? [6:09]

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

So, as Mark talked about that, we are an Ivy League institution, you come to our program and we’ll teach you microeconomics and macroeconomics and we’ll teach you regressions, we’ll teach you accounting and we’ll teach you finance and marketing. And unless you know all of these things pretty well, you’ll not be able to graduate from our program. So that’s how you develop the skills.

The behavioral transformation comes from our team-based learning. So over time, they start learning that they not only have to do well individually in these courses, but there are lots of team assignments, and they’re intentional, they’re designed, keeping in mind that there will be behavioral learning here where they’ll get feedback from team members about their biases, about their preconceptions and how they can be more effective team players.

And all of that is a part of our curriculum. So that’s how we blend both of these goals and meet both of these goals. And I think that’s one of the things that makes us different from other programs, as far as I know.

[Dean Mark Nelson]

Can I jump in real quick?

Sure, of course, anytime. [7:13]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

I just wanted to add that the process by which this happens is very carefully thought out. So we have a leadership framework that we created at Cornell. We call it the four Cs, where we’ve got competence and character and compassion and courage. And we talk about what each of those means and what those skills are. But when we’re talking about people operating in a group, the real key is, you give some instruction, but then they apply it and then they get very specific feedback, and rinse and repeat.

You keep doing that and working on each person’s individual weaknesses and helping them be stronger. This relates to diversity and inclusion, this relates to harnessing the power of the group and being able to identify the complementarities that make a group stronger. So we’ve got people who are absolute specialists in this that are team coaches and team advisors, and that’s a spine that runs through the program.

That’s very specific, not just general teamwork. They’re getting feedback on the nature of their participation? [8:20]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

Yeah, I think it’s true, because oftentimes people will throw folks into teams and then they’ll throw them in another team and then they’ll throw them in another team, and that’s actually not teaching them, that’s having them work in teams and so…

And having them fall on their face and learn from falling on their face. [8:33]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

Exactly.

When you’re talking about working in teams, you’re talking about people who also have usually full-time or almost full-time responsibilities. How do they navigate that? [8:55]

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

That’s a great question. I’m happy to take that question. I teach in the program, and I didn’t really have an appreciation of how much our students have to go through until I started tracking them very closely. And to your point, Linda, I realized that the behavioral transformation happens because, as you said, they have very busy lives; they have their careers, they have their families, some of them have small kids, some of them have parents at home. And then they’re ambitious, and they sign up for this rigorous MBA program.

And what really makes them committed to the pedagogical goals is the fact that they’re learning as a team. And let me kind of illustrate with an anecdote, and I kind of encountered this quite frequently. Sometimes we have student assignments and we have team assignments in all our courses, individual assignments and team assignments. Sometimes the students, when they have to choose between doing extremely well on a team assignment versus an individual assignment, guess which one they focus more on?

Team? [10:02]

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

A team assignment, because they feel they have this obligation to make sure the team performs well. And even if they have to make a trade-off there, they focus on a team assignment. And I think the team structure kind of helps us enable the students to navigate all the conflicting demands in their lives, enables them to grow in the program.

Cornell’s EMBA program is the largest in the US. What advantage does that create? [10:42]

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

I have to begin by saying that we don’t know the exact number of enrollments in all schools, right? The only source that we can rely on our third-party industry service. So the most reliable source for us is EMBAC, which is an independent body that surveys all EMBA programs. And in the latest survey, they surveyed 125 schools, and we looked at the number of schools that have big programs and there are seven such schools when I looked at that. They are Chicago, Columbia, Cornell, Duke, Sloan, UCLA, and Wharton.

And then we looked at the total, the number of students enrolled, and I was pleasantly surprised to see that we are the top in terms of students, whether or not we include our students in Beijing, even if we include our students just in the US, we have the largest cohort of students in coming in any year, at least in the year 2021 to our EMBA programs. Now your second question is, how does that help us?

I think the most concrete is that we learn from our mistakes, and we share those learnings as we start new programs or other programs. So each program doesn’t have to commit its own mistakes to improve; it can learn from the mistakes that other people are committing, our other programs are committing, and we learn from our strengths and we learn from our observations.

So going back to the team-based learning, we started our team-based learning with our Cornell Americas program, which uses this distributed classroom, and I can talk about that later. But we had to create team-based learning because the classrooms are distributed, they are not in Ithaca or in New York, they are spread all over the North Americas. And once we learned that, and once we realized the power of that pedagogical approach, we said, “Well, we have to roll that out to our EMBA Metro and our EMBA MS/Healthcare.”

And our program directors wanted to, were very keen to embrace those because they saw the power of this pedagogical innovation. So I think the most important advantage is that we learn, we have these internal learning process, so as an organization we are improving because we have all these programs. The second one is more obvious and more straightforward; we have a pretty large network, which means that Cornell EMBA alumni, that they’re in Chicago or in Toronto or in Peru, and they’ll have lots of other Cornell alumni that they can connect with.

Dean Nelson, do you want to add to that? [13.17]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

I really do. I agree wholeheartedly with what Manoj said. There’s another thing that’s maybe less apparent, but I think is really important. And that is, you’ll look and there may be some schools where the EMBA program is sort of a one-off and they have a focus on something else, but they also have an EMBA program. And it’s really critical to highlight, and Manoj alluded to this, but it takes a special skillset to teach EMBA students well.

You’re dealing with more experienced people. , You’re dealing with people who are dealing with the strategic issues you might be covering on a daily basis. And while, Linda, you’re dead on that they’re very busy people, the other thing is that on a Saturday, they’re bringing into the classroom what happened at work on Friday, and they’re looking to apply it on Monday. And learning as a faculty member to draw on the incredible experience in that class and on the immediacy of them putting their education to work.

You’re sort of a conductor of a symphony more than you are playing your own instrument. It’s always that case, I think, when you’re dealing with graduate students, it’s even more so for EMBA students. So if we have four programs with somewhat different clientele and modalities, but they’re all focused on EMBAs, what that means is that we have a deeper bench of faculty, we have deeper expertise of faculty that we can bring to bear on this really important but somewhat distinctive student population.

What is a distributed classroom and how does it contribute to the Cornell EMBA options? [15:07]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

I would ask Manoj because Manoj is teaching actively using this approach and he can describe what it’s like as a faculty member as well as more conceptually.

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

Happy to. I think we are quite proud of this. And I have to admit that we started off this concept in 2005. We did not realize that this is going to become so big and powerful. We did not anticipate a pandemic 15 years down the line and everybody going hybrid and online. But we started off 2005 in a partnership, our partnership with Queen’s University, and actually they are the ones who were the pioneers who had this idea.

And so we started our EMBA program in New York City and we were looking to take this, what we believe is a pretty strong EMBA program, to the rest of the country, and so were Queen’s, and we thought that we should partner with them. And we created a program spanning all of Americas, North and South America, in 20 locations.

And the problem that we faced was the following; it’s not like teaching engineering or a math class or a chemistry class where you can look at the glass slides, take notes, or read books and learn. In a business class, it’s very important to interact, it’s very important for people to debate and thrash out ideas and question and challenge. How do we create that environment? And this is more so for Executive MBA because there’s a wealth of experience, Linda, in each classroom. So how do we create that?

So people, our colleagues, who were running this program at that time, had this very powerful idea of creating classrooms, physical classrooms, in each location. So we have 20 such small physical classrooms, each can accommodate 10, 15 students. Students physically go into those classrooms every weekend. They spend eight hours there starting at 8:00 AM in their respective time zones, and the faculty either go to a studio in Cornell or a partner institution.

And we have a studio which is pretty much like a television studio. If you’ve ever happened to be in Ithaca, I’d be happy to give you a tour of their studio. We go in there and we have colleagues helping us beam our content, and we see all the students on a big, large, huge wall in front of us. And I can then say, “Ron in Toronto, what do you think of what Lisa just said in Dallas?” And then I can turn to someone in Seattle and say, “Okay, who do you think is correct?” And they can all interact with each other.

So what we’ve done is we created this structure where we can recreate an MBA classroom by recreating in peer-to-peer interactions, and at the same time we can distribute it across multiple locations. This is very different from what many other institutions currently… the way they currently think of online education. They think of a Zoom room, putting people in Zoom rooms, et cetera.

We also have those kinds of approaches but I think that the foundation of the Americas program, this concept of distributed classrooms, I think it’s a marvelous pedagogical innovation that has helped us roll out her MBA to many far different places.

So it’s almost a combination of small groups and online. [18:33]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you can tell I’m excited about this too. There are a couple things to add to this. Manoj gave a wonderful explanation. The first might only… this metaphor might only work for people of a certain generation, but there used to be a sitcom called Frasier. And Frasier was a psychologist on the radio and he had someone in the control room named Roz. And Roz would sort of orchestrate what was happening while Frasier was sort of the talent on the line.

And one of the things that is really powerful about this approach is that there is a Roz; in addition to the faculty member, there’s a control room. So what Manoj didn’t say was when he called on Ron in Toronto, the person in the control room pops up a record of what Ron’s doing, what’s his background, how does he tie in. There are opportunities for that controller to collaborate with faculty member in terms of how they’re offering ways that students in this distributed format can be providing polls and votes and input in a variety of ways.

So before I saw this, I sort of thought of a distributed environment as being, “How close to a real face-to-face classroom can you get?” And what I didn’t realize is that in some ways you have an augmented capability, unique capability. And that’s really interesting. And once again, it takes work to know how to harness that well. It takes the infrastructure and the talent and the team, but from a faculty member perspective, you have to learn to do that extraordinarily well. And that’s part of the investment that we’ve made in the structure.

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

Yeah, I just want to echo what Mark said. It is wonderful. Yeah, my colleagues, Todd and Steve, who are always behind the scene and in fact many times I’ve turned to them and asked them, “Which boardroom do you think I should ask this question to?” And they’ll tell me which boardroom is kind of just poised to answer that question. Yeah. It kind of augments our teaching skills being in that structure.

Do the students who, let’s say, attend in Dallas versus the students who attend in Chicago or Boston or wherever they are, or Florida, do they have group projects? Do they get together socially? Do they become a cohort? [21:08]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

Yes, and they get very tight. So they’ll do group projects together and they’ll be socializing together. But they’re also, as Manoj was saying, they’re relying on each other and so they become extremely close. The other thing that’s interesting… I guess two other things about this format that I just find so intriguing. One is that we’ll allow students to do a weekend in another town.

And so there are some people who just have this bucket list of saying, “I’m going to go to every one of these boardrooms at one point or another and I’m going to join their…” Because they all know each other. They see each other and they’re interacting, both online and also when we do residential sessions. So the idea of someone from Mexico City popping up to Seattle and being hosted, they really enjoy that.

I assume there’s also forums for interaction midweek .[22:21]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. But another thing that’s interesting and that maybe isn’t immediately apparent is that, I mean you really, really benefit from each other in an Executive MBA classroom. Certainly do in a residential MBA classroom, but even more so from an Executive because they’ve got so much to share. And what’s better yet is imagine that you’re doing a case and you’re asking people’s perspectives, and one person’s in Santiago, Chile and another’s in Monterey, Mexico and another’s in New York City and another is in the Bay Area.

And they’re not only from a different place. I mean, in our residential program we have 43 countries represented. Not only from a different place, they’re in a different place and they can talk about how right now that cultural challenge might be addressed in their particular settings. And so to have that simultaneity of diversity of background, it’s just really unique, and I think it’s an unsung learning advantage of this approach.

Does any individual cohort ever get together with the rest of its cohorts? And do the cohorts ever meet altogether? [23:36]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

Yeah, we have residential sessions where they’ll come to the Ithaca campus, they’ll come to our Cornell Tech campus, our partner university, Queen’s. And, I mean, it’s like a huge family reunion when this happens because everyone knows each other and they not only interact during the day in the classroom, but I think the bar scene in Ithaca benefits from their presence. I mean, they get out and they socialize a lot with each other and they’re excited to do so.

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

I’ll just add to what Mark said. I talked to somebody who was in our first class, 2005, who graduated from the first class and I asked them, “What is it that you really take away, remember, even now from the program that you attended in 2005?” And he said, “My classmates, my board roommates,” and he said, “We’re still in touch, we still meet.”

So part of it is, as you, I think, quite astutely pointed out the beginning, it’s a very rigorous program because they have conflicting demands and now they’re put in a team, they’re accountable for the team because many a time they’re leading their team project and they kind of rotate in their roles and they get to know each other very well, extremely well. They get to know each other’s family problems so they can help each other around all of that.

Now they’re seeing other teams online and now they’re curious to meet the team in Toronto or to meet the team in Calgary or meet the team in Boston. And like Mark said, then there are these residential sessions that happens twice a year, and they come to Ithaca or they go to a Cornell Tech campus and they’re like, “Oh yeah, so finally we get to meet the people in Boston and we finally get to meet people in Monterey,” and they bond there. So I think it’s a wonderful structure.

What do most people not realize about Cornell’s EMBA programs, or options I should say, that you would like them to know? And are there any misconceptions that you would like to dispel? [25:31]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

I’ll say a couple and then invite Manoj to jump in. So first off, there’s some things that I think they just automatically expect. They know Cornell University and the Ivy League School and they anticipate that it’s going to be high quality and rigorous, and it definitely is. I think the team approach that we were describing is something that people probably don’t realize to the extent that they could.

The amazing diversity of students in these classes, both in, depending on the particular program, geographic location, functional orientation. In our Healthcare Leadership program, half of the program consists of clinicians, but the other half are people from the healthcare sector really broadly defined. So they’re healthcare implement manufacturers and consultants and pharmaceutical, biotech. So that diversity of functional discipline and orientation, it takes them only a little while to realize just how much they have to draw upon and to learn from.

So all of that I think is true. What people maybe don’t know, I don’t know if I’m dissuading or informing at this point, but sometimes people have the image of an institution of Cornell’s standing, as full of a bunch of stuffy people who aren’t approachable and aren’t warm and aren’t caring and aren’t supportive. And it’s very, very much the opposite. So you go back to the motto of Cornell, “Any person, any study,” the idea of being welcoming and embracing and supportive.

Everyone’s ambitious, everyone’s driven, but it’s not cutthroat. It’s exactly the opposite. And that then leads to the power of the Cornell network after they graduated. And it’s sort of like the rings of an onion or whatever, where you start maybe with your team and then your cohort and your class and your program, your year. But it doesn’t take long before you’re talking about the Cornell University network of well over 250,000 people and they’re all, we talk about, bleeding Cornell Red, huh?

And they’re sort of part of your network. There’s this line about Cornell that we’re elite but not elitist. And I think that’s really important for people to understand. They’re joining a family and it’s an accomplished family, but it’s a very supportive and close family. And that makes the process fun and affirming and special.

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

Can I add, Linda? And in terms of the more… I agree with all that Mark said, I want to touch on a couple of concrete things. I was talking to somebody on the West Coast and this person was telling me that this person is working in a good company, technology company, and saying, “I want to do an EMBA, but from a place like Cornell, but I can’t travel, I don’t have time to travel.” And that’s the first myth I’d like to bust.

If anybody is listening to the program, I want you to know that you don’t have to travel to Ithaca or New York to get a Cornell EMBA. You can be in Seattle, you can be in San Jose, you can be in Los Angeles, and you can stay there, and without quitting your job, you can get an Ivy League Cornell EMBA. That’s the first thing.

And when I told this person this, they said, “Oh, that’s interesting. That’s really interesting. I probably would like to enroll.” And then he thought about this and said, “But I’ll have to take a GMAT.” I said, “Nope. The GMAT usually was required for your regular MBAs, but if you’re applying for an Executive MBA program, we look at your profile. We need certain experience, we need 15 years experience, we need you to have some management experience, leadership experience.”

“But if you have those, and we need you to have an undergraduate degree that enables you to attend and respond to rigorous courses. But if you meet those benchmarks, we know that you are very busy, working executives, so we are not going to ask you to take a bunch of time preparing for tests. We don’t need to do that because we have enough information from your credential to evaluate your preparedness for a program.”

So those are the two things I’d like all prospective applicants to know. Even if you are in Canada or anywhere in any part of the US, you have access to a Cornell EMBA program. And we made it easy for you to complete your EMBA without quitting your jobs and without having to take too many leave, et cetera. And the bonus that you get is that you’ll get some lifelong friends.

[Dean Mark Nelson]

Sorry, one more thing that just… Manoj sparked something in my mind. Something I want to make sure people don’t do. Don’t psych yourself out. Don’t think you can’t do this. One of the things we have, we have a pre-assessment process where we ask people to just reach out to our admissions folks and talk to them. Applying to an EMBA program is very different than what people have in mind maybe when they applied for undergrad, where they filled out this common app and mailed it and sat there nervously for four months, wondering whether anything’s going to happen.

With an EMBA program it’s a lot more almost like executive placement. I mean, you’re talking with busy people, with accomplished people that… they don’t want to waste their time, we don’t want to waste their time. So early on in the process, we’ll talk about what our programs are like. We’ll help people understand which program is best for them. We’ll walk them through the process.

And if there was some reason why we didn’t think someone was a fit for any of these programs, we tell them. So we’re not wanting to waste their time. Instead, we’re wanting to help them through this process, just as we’ll help them through their EMBA. Sometimes I’ll talk to people and they’ll say, “Oh, I never applied. I could never get in.” It’s like, “Well, how do you know if you don’t talk to us?”

We promise we won’t lead you on, we won’t waste your time, but give yourself the opportunity to be considered because it could be a life-changing opportunity.

Dr. Thomas, what are the cities where the distributed classrooms are located? [32:08]

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

On the East Coast we have Ithaca, New York, Boston, and DC. Then we have Seattle, LA, San Jose, and Francisco. We have Dallas and Houston. And then we have 10 other cities in Canada. And we have Monterey and Lima-

[Dean Mark Nelson]

Santiago, Mexico City. I’ll jump in.

Is that for all the EMBAs? [32:36]

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

For EMBA Americas. We have our Metro EMBA program, which is based in New York City. So if you are from the Northeast and if you really are passionate about being a part of the business community in New York City or in the tri-state area, then we would say that you should go to the Metro MBA program, which operates at the Cornell Tech through our state-of-the-art campus for business school.

And I think I should… I don’t know if it’s the right time or not, I also want to talk about the other program, which is our EMBA/MS program that’s also based in New York City. And that’s a very unique program of its kind. I don’t know whether it’s the right time or you want me to…

As you might know, Linda, one of the sectors that is booming a lot in the US and for the rest of the world is healthcare.

There is a lot of need for people who are trained in management skills in the healthcare sector. And so many of the business schools have been creating specialized tracks for healthcare MBA. What we’ve created I think is truly unique. So it’s not just a healthcare track. We come up with a dual-degree program where students get an MBA and they get an MS from a reputed medical school, which is Weill, and they’re co-taught.

Half the courses are taught by business school professionals, our Ivy League professors teaching MBA programs, and half of them are taught by faculty who are clinicians or professors from the medical school. This is a program that is completely unique and it’s only five years old. And I’m optimistic in 10 years from now when we have brilliant physicians and healthcare professionals all over the country looking for the best healthcare program in the country, I’m optimistic, I’m hopeful that they’ll turn to us.

Can you tell us a little bit more about the pre-assessment? [34:51]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

There’s a bit of form as well as a conversation that people will have. Really quickly in the process the idea is to just get… it’s just the starting bare-bones amount of information for us to be able to help someone to triage. And then from there, we’re moving on to walk them through the process itself. When you’re submitting a pre-assessment, we could pop that up to something too.

It’s before you’re entering the formal application process, it’s before you have to have any kind of an application fee. It’s just designed to get you started. And it’s a very small amount of information before you’re having a conversation with an admissions expert that’s there to answer any question that you might have.

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

And just add to that a couple of… As Mark said, it’s very, very short. And we have basically two goals in this. One is we want to tell them, as Mark said earlier, if the students are not appropriate or suitable for an EMBA program, we want to tell you early on that, “Okay, this is probably not the best program for you.” And we’ll guide them to other programs or give them that feedback. That’s the first step.

So it’s very easy, just fill in your name and give them your LinkedIn profile and then you basically have a conversation. Someone tells you that, “Well, you are the right kind of person who should apply,” or, “You should not apply.” Now if you are the kind of person who should apply, then our admissions officers will work with them to help them complete the application process and guide them through the application process. So the pre-assessment serves those two kind of goals, which are I think very important.

Who should take the GMAT, GRE or EA? Do you have any preference among those tests? [36:49]

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

I’m not quite sure why. If you really want to see where you rank amongst all the other students, and if you have that need, I think you should take the test. I think typically people take the GMAT. I took the GMAT long, long time ago, and I suspect most of the business school students were applying to do MBA program, they take the GMAT.

If it’s not used at all, then there’s no point in it. There’s absolutely no point in it. [37:21]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

I’d say they don’t need to be submitting a test score. If they’ve done it and it’s a wonderful score, then go ahead and submit it because why not show something wonderful? But it’s not a barrier. And I want to go back to something that Manoj was saying earlier, which is when you’re dealing with someone who’s 35, 40 years old and they think they’ve already got a record of accomplishment, it’s a little silly to try to judge them based on a standardized test score or based on their undergraduate grade point.

It’s what have you done for the last 10, 15 years? And that’s the real track record. And so it makes sense that the less experienced the target audience of a program is, the more things like tests and undergraduate performance and stuff matter because you’ve got less else to go on. But at this point, we’re looking to bring in people who are already successful and already leaders, and to just accelerate their trajectory, make them that much stronger and able to go that much farther.

What if somebody has, for whatever reason, they blew off undergraduate, they had a tough time, they have a really poor GPA, they have a 2.5 GPA, but they have excellent work experience, they’ve really accomplished a lot once they got out of school. Do they have a chance? [38:43]

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

I’m very glad that you asked that question because I think all the applicants should get the correct picture here. So our program is quite rigorous. So they had to do quantitative analysis, they had to do strategic analysis, they have to have soft skills and hard skills. So we do require a certain level of competence on the part of applicants as they’re applying. And the only point is, “How do we assess that?”

As Mark said, for us, it’s not an entrance exam that helps us assess it. It’s the performance, past-academic performance, and their track record in the industry. And when I talk to my colleagues in admissions, “What do you look for?” And they’ve said that many times they’ve said, “No, this person looks really good on paper. And in fact this person also has very good academic track record, but I don’t think this person will be able to contribute to the team in a team discussion, so I don’t think this person is a good fit.”

So that’s the approach that we take. Your question is more specific and probably best answered by one of my colleagues in the admissions office, but my suspicion is their answer will be something like this. They’ll say that if a person has got really weak undergraduate track record, then they most likely would be guided to take some courses or show some evidence for some kind of… the ability to take… perform right in a classroom.

[Dean Mark Nelson]

I’ve actually run into this situation before, and people grow and change. I don’t know about how you think about when you were an undergraduate, but I personally am grateful that I’ve grown and changed since those days. Thank goodness.

My husband likes to say,”I’ve never met anybody who feels they were smarter five years ago than today.” [40:51]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

And some people have more to grow when they’re 18 than others or at a different point in time. And so it’s just really, really important to know where they’re at at the time that they’re applying. And so part of what happens with pre-assessment is that, let’s just say that someone has nothing in their background or their education to suggest that they would be comfortable dealing with the more quantitative aspects of the program.

They will recommend some training materials to help the person be prepared. Because the last thing we want to do is to have someone admitted and not be able to do the work and not have a great experience. So think of it as almost a diagnostic process in this admissions process. And we’ll look to see if there’s a weakness in someone’s background that they should address just to make sure they get the most out of the program length.

But again, don’t start off by saying, “Well, I got a two five in undergrad, so there’s no way Cornell would accept me.” Let’s have the conversation, because it might be quite possible that they’d be a tremendous person based on the trajectory of their career since they were an undergraduate.

If you were a potential applicant thinking ahead to an EMBA application and program, what is the one thing you would do to prepare yourself to apply? [42:08]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

That’s a very good question.

Dean Mark Nelson:

This is going to sound incredibly selfish because I am an accounting professor, okay? But one of the things, if someone has never ever… and I’m looking really past the application process, if someone’s never seen any kind of financial statements, financial information, anything of that nature, there are all of these different short courses or overviews or whatever. Just getting a little bit of the bare bones of accounting I think is useful because then when you jump into an accounting class, you’ve got some of that language, some of that syntax. But again, I can’t say that I’m not being self-serving in that because I am an accounting professor and I love this stuff.

Dr. Thomas recommends a basic course in marketing? [43:17]

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

So I just wanted to make sure, Linda, well, I would definitely recommend a basic course in marketing clearly, but I just wanted to clarify, did you say that after they get admitted or before they apply?

Potential applicant. [43:32]

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

A potential applicant? So if somebody is thinking of applying for an EMBA program, my recommendation would be get in touch with other EMBA students. Understand the experience, understand whether this is for them. It’s not for everybody.

And the challenges. [43:53]

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

Yeah. It’s time consuming for people to go through… I mean, once you enroll in an EMBA program, I’ve heard people say that, “We kept our social life on the side for two years, because all we do is work and study.” And so you are giving up a lot for two years and you have to make sure that you are in it because it’s going to be valuable for you. That’s going to be my advice.

[Dean Mark Nelson]

No, that’s great. And I’d also add, if you’re in a committed relationship, sit your partner down and say, “Okay, are we in this together?” Because at graduation, I always make sure to thank the partners and to say, “Congratulations to the both of you for getting your EMBA because it was a team effort at home as well as in the classroom.”

Sure. By the way, I was laughing when you were suggesting taking an accounting class because I was an undergrad, I have an MBA, but it was a full-time MBA and not an Executive MBA, and I was a political science major. I took the minimum amount of math in college that I possibly could get away with. So when I was thinking of getting the MBA, and at the time you only needed one year of work experience, I took a math class to prepare myself and one accounting class because I felt I needed to know something about the language of business before I committed to this. [45:12]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

And were you glad you did that?

Yes, I was. I was very glad I did that. [45:15]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

There you go.

Proof positive, absolutely. So I’m sorry, Dr. Thomas, I did not take marketing at that point. [45:22]

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

That’s okay. No, you did your marketing in your MBA program then.

Is there anything you would’ve liked me to ask you that I haven’t asked? [45:29]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

I don’t think so. I think if there’s one thing I’d emphasize is something that Manoj said right towards the end, a really, really good way to understand what a program is about once you’ve talked to people in admissions, is to say, “Who are some students who are some alumni that I could speak with?”

And there you’re talking to somebody who’s been a customer and they’ve been part of the whole experience, and they will give their own perspective. And certainly we would be happy and proud for people to speak with any of our current students or any of our alumni because we’re looking for that alignment and that excitement about being part of our community, and we think they’ll convey that very well.

Dr. Thomas, what would you have liked me to ask you? [46:33]

[Dr. Manoj Thomas]

I think you’ve asked all the great questions, Linda.

I just wanted to emphasize the behavioral transformation part of the EMBA program along with the skilled learning, and the fact that there is an EMBA program which is specifically designed for people from different industries, different backgrounds. I think you’ve covered all of that, and those are the things I would’ve liked to emphasize in this conversation.

I want to thank both of you, Dean Nelson and Dr. Thomas. Thank you so much for joining me today. It’s been delightful. Where can listeners and potential applicants learn more about Cornell Johnson’s EMBA programs? [47:44]

[Dean Mark Nelson]

Johnson.cornell.edu\programs\EMBA.

And a final reminder, download your free copy of Ace the EMBA, Expert Advice for the Rising Executive**.

Listener, thank you too for joining Dean Mark Nelson and Dr. Manoj Thomas and me for our 506th episode. Thanks again for coming.

This is Admissions Straight Talk, produced by Accepted, and I’m your host, Linda Abraham. I’ll talk to you again next week. [48:24**]

Related Links:

• Executive MBA Programs | EMBAs from Cornell Johnson
• Cornell EMBA Application Essay Tips & Deadlines [2022 – 2023]
• Ace the EMBA: Expert Advice for the Rising Executive,a free download

Relevant shows:

• How to Get Accepted to Cornell Johnson MBA [Episode 488]
• Applying to Wharton Lauder? Do Your Research! [Episode 465]
• Ace the Executive Assessment [Episode 483]
• Why Is This Successful Leader Investing In an Oxford Said Executive MBA? [Episode 454]

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The post Cornell Johnson EMBA Program: Four Options for the Largest EMBA Program in the United States [Episode 506] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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Reflecting on trends that impacted graduate admissions in 2022, Linda Abraham shares her predictions for 2023 and offers an action plan for those planning to apply in the new year. [Show Summary]Thanks for joining me for today’s solo show. I’m going to review a few trends from 2022 and also attempt to inspire you for the upcoming year. You can email me at ast@accepted.com when my predictions prove wrong in the course of the year.

Predictions: More law schools will withdraw from U.S. News rankings [1:16]I predict that more law schools will withdraw from U.S. News rankings.

Will the rankings influence end with the withdrawal of these schools? I actually don’t think so.

U.S. News will use publicly available data and still rank programs. Its rankings will continue to influence admissions, recruiting, and applicant decisions. But are they going to hold as much sway as they have in the past? I don’t know. That’s hard to say. I don’t think the U.S. News is going to just stop ranking schools. I don’t think applicants are going to stop looking at rankings, and I don’t really think schools are going to stop being influenced by rankings. Perhaps a little less so in the past, but I think you’re going to see changes on the margins in that segment.

What about other segments of the higher education market?

I don’t think medical schools are going to stop ranking or participating in the U.S. News ranking. I also think that the rankings are a little bit less influential in the med school arena than they are in law schools or business schools.

It’ll be really interesting to see if business schools withdraw from the rankings. Certainly, the admissions directors there have no greater love of rankings than the law school admissions directors and deans.

I think if you see the M7 schools withdraw, you might see a trend very similar to what you’ve seen in the law school market, where it’s the elite programs that have largely withdrawn, and the lower-down ones are not withdrawing yet. There are some that have but not that many.

We’ll link to posts that Accepted has on the withdrawal of specific schools from the U.S. News rankings.

Prediction: More experimentation with test options and waivers [3:05]What about test optionality? That has been a trend that’s been growing and increasing over the last several years. It really took off with COVID. I don’t think you’re going to see much change in the law school space this year. I think you will see it if, as anticipated, the ABA approves making tests optional for its accredited programs. I think you’re going to see more experimentation in the grad and MBA market with test optionality. And you may also see, throughout the graduate and undergraduate arenas, acceptance for a larger variety of tests.

Many law schools are accepting the GRE in addition to the LSAT. In the business school world, you’re seeing widespread acceptance of the GRE or the GMAT to the extent that the test is required. You’re seeing more waivers. You’re also seeing greater acceptance of the Executive Assessment, which was originally designed for Executive MBA programs. And at some schools, you’re seeing them basically saying, whatever has an alphabet soup in it is fine.

I think you’re going to see more and more experimentation. You’ll see more waiver options and there’s been a lot of experimentation with that in the B school market. I’m not sure you’re going to see wholesale test optionality at the elite programs.

I think med schools will stick with the MCAT. It has some correlation to performance on the USMLE, which is obviously the test that doctors have to take at the end of medical school. And medical schools very legitimately want to know that the people they admit are going to perform in medical schools.

Grad schools are all over the map outside the professional designations that I’ve just discussed. Some are going to require a GRE or another test; some won’t. Again, a lot of experimentation is going on.

Prediction: Application volumes will soon increase [5:03]What about application volume? When the US or the world goes into a recession, unemployment typically increases, and application volume and competition for graduate school seats also increase. So far, unemployment is still pretty low in the United States

If the job market remains tight, application volume will probably remain low for certainly for the remainder of this cycle, which is the 2022-2023 cycle and maybe even into the 2023-2024 cycle. I don’t think so though. I think unemployment will increase and therefore, application volume will increase. This will be for all graduate categories: business school, law school, med school, you name it. When the economy is in the tank, it’s a great time to go to graduate school, whatever your profession is.

I don’t know that schools will hit the kind of application volume highs that they hit at the beginning of COVID lockdowns, but I think you are going to see if a recession does hit, that application volume will increase. My suspicion is that you’re going to see this either with late rounds at business schools or, more likely, the next application cycle across the board.

What to make of these predictions [6:26]What do you take from all this?

Whether law schools are in or out of rankings is something that gets headlines, but frankly, it really shouldn’t affect you that much. You should be making your own rankings. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. U.S. News is a great source of data that you can use to compare law schools on specific metrics, but that shouldn’t be the sole determinant of where you apply. Whether you’re applying to law school, business school, med school, or whatever program it is, you should be doing your own ranking.

Test choice and test optionality are definitely good for applicants. Having these options could change your application process and give you a bit more control than you would have if one test was definitely required by the schools you’re applying to. But even for law school, these changes won’t come until 2025, at the earliest. Frankly, if your grades don’t show academic ability or don’t reflect what you feel is your academic ability, then you will probably need to take a test. Take the one that shows you at your best. You’ll want to take it because schools want to know that they’re admitting people who can do the work.

The anticipated increase in application volume will affect your chances of acceptance. There are so many seats in a specific school. They get more applications and competition becomes more intense. That could influence your school choice as well as where you get in. But again, that is something you don’t have a lot of control over.

That’s a review of 2022 and some of the major changes or influences that I see on applicants from last year.

Perspective for applications in 2023 and beyond [8:06]Another purpose of this solo episode is to share my perspective on this whole process. I’ve been an admissions consultant since 1994. I’ve seen great applicants come through, mediocre applicants, and sometimes some not-so-good applicants. Most applicants that I’ve dealt with are really wonderful, talented people.

I responded to a post on Student Doctor Network, which is a forum for medical school applicants, in September. This post really, really bothered me. I’m going to share the post with you and what I feel is wrong with this post.

So on the Student Doctor Network, also known as SDN, this fellow wrote:

“Two pre-interview invitation rejections and no interview invites. Sick of seeing so many people I know who are mediocre and disingenuous get consideration with record speed. Feels like no matter what I do, it’s never good enough. I’m considering just pursuing a doctorate in science and leaving the shell game alone.”

Obviously, this fellow was frustrated.

For those of you who are not familiar with the medical school application process, interview invitations are typically sent out between September and February. It can start a little earlier, but September is pretty typical, and this was posted towards the end of September.

I responded to this fellow with some sympathy, but I also wrote:

“For your information, whether you get an interview invitation in September or January, as long as that interview invitation ends up with an acceptance, it doesn’t matter when the invitation comes and whether you apply once or more than once. As long as you get in, you’ll still spend the vast majority of your working life as a physician.

“So whether you go for a Ph.D. or become a physician depends not on whether others get interview invitations or acceptances but on how badly you want to be a physician versus the Ph.D. in science. They can provide very different careers and lifestyles. It also can be fairly difficult and competitive to get into Ph.D. programs.

“Finally, the people you feel are mediocre and disingenuous may have something going for them in terms of their achievements and insight into their experiences that you are unaware of. It happens all the time. They also may have presented their qualifications and fit more effectively via their application.

“Don’t automatically blame ‘the system’ and fail to take responsibility. Doing so will prevent you from improving what needs to be improved, whether you need to apply to med school or decide to pursue a different path.”

Why has this post from someone I never met stuck with me and bothered me so much?

It reflects an attitude that I feel is very disempowering and just unhealthy. I firmly believe that graduate school is a means to an end. Anybody who has listened to this podcast knows that’s what I think. First, you determine what you most want to do and the education needed to achieve that goal. Then you figure out if your goal is worth the effort and resources required to attain it and go for it. But realize that the application process and the study or the program of study you’re trying to get into are means to an end. They are not an end in themselves.

So whether you go for plan A or plan B, and whether that’s becoming a business person, a lawyer, a doctor, whatever it is, it should not depend on whether someone you feel is worthy or not is invited to interview. That should be really irrelevant to your decision-making process.

It should not depend on whether you get an invitation to interview at the beginning or end of the evaluation process.It should not depend on whether you agree with the admissions committee’s decisions vis-à-vis others or not. It should depend on your goal. That should be your starting place and your guiding North Star throughout this process.

Furthermore, this fellow was comparing himself to other individual applicants that he knew. Please, please, please don’t do that. Just stop it. Don’t do it. It’s a big mistake. You may not see something in the other applicant that makes them highly qualified for their goal or perhaps they want to go into an area of your field for which they are well suited, and you are poorly suited and vice versa.

Your information could easily be incomplete. Alternatively, you can be completely correct about their fitness for their goal however, they did a better job than you did of presenting themselves in the application.

Let’s also face it, this is not a perfect system. There are times when somebody less deserving might be admitted than somebody who is more deserving. That’s just reality. That’s life. By blaming the system and the unfairness of it all, you relieve yourself of all responsibility as well as any agency and ability to improve and change the outcome.

That was the most troubling part of the post for me. This individual had obviously done a lot of work. I think he was a re-applicant. But when you talk about the system, in other words, vague circumstances beyond your control that are definitely out there and everybody has to deal with, you can’t do anything. You can’t change. What you need to do as an applicant, whether first-time or re-applicant and not getting interview invitations, is focus on what you can change, influence, and control to achieve your goals.

Steps to take now for your 2023 applications [13:58]If you’re a current applicant, assume rejection until you are admitted. Prepare for reapplication so that you’re constantly improving your qualifications. They’re not mutually exclusive but one will assist the other. Do everything you can to get admitted to this cycle. So can you improve your qualifications at this point, even if you’re applying now? Or if you’re beyond the point where you can improve your qualifications for this current cycle, then prepare for reapplication.

Can you improve the presentation of your qualifications if you need to reapply? Because a successful application requires good, competitive qualifications and a successful presentation of those qualifications. Did you aim too high? Should you change your target schools?

Finally, you do have to ask the question, and that is, do you still want the goal you originally set for yourself so much that you were willing to take the steps necessary to achieve it from this point in time going forward? Not what happened six months ago or a year ago, but at this point in time.

I’m going to be repeating myself here a little bit, but when or whether people you feel are worthy or unworthy receive interview invitations or acceptances – that’s something you have zero control over. Focus on what you can influence. Focus on what you can control. That’s your qualifications and your presentation of those qualifications, as well as where you apply.

So that’s my message to you as you dive into 2023. Empower yourself by focusing on what you can influence, change and, most importantly, improve.

One of the things that you can definitely influence and control completely is when you start the process. Yes, folks, it’s that time. If you plan to apply in the summer or fall of 2023 and have not started, start today. Start now. Move forward. Begin your test prep if it’s required for your particular course of study. Begin school research or advance school research. Take notes that you’ll be able to refer to. Consider journaling about your own experiences so that you will have material for essays and interviews.

Most importantly, assess which of your qualifications need improvement and start working on them and engage with an Accepted consultant as soon as possible to map out your plan and application timeline. Yes, we will work with you later in the application cycle, assuming we have availability. But you will get so much more out of the collaboration, assistance, the guidance if you engage with us early. You have no idea how starting early can improve your qualifications, your applications, and of course, the outcome.

To engage with an expert Accepted consultant, go to www.accepted.com.

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Kristin Theis-Alvarez, Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid at the UC Berkeley School of Law, shares her insider perspective on the recent decision to withdraw from US News Rankings and describes how students can demonstrate the Berkeley ethos to secure a spot in this prestigious program. [Show Summary]Thanks for joining me for the 504th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Are you applying to law school this cycle? Are you planning ahead to apply to law school next year or later? Are you competitive at your target programs? Accepted’s Law School Admissions Quiz can give you a quick reality check. Just go to accepted.com/law-quiz, complete the quiz, and you’ll not only get your assessment but also tips on how to improve your chances of acceptance. Plus it’s all free.

I’m delighted to have on Admissions Straight Talk, Kristin Theis-Alvarez, Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid at the University of California Berkeley School of Law. Dean Theis-Alvarez earned her BA in Rhetoric and Native American Studies from UC Berkeley and her JD from Stanford Law, graduating from Stanford in 2000. She has been with Berkeley Law in different roles since 2007 and became Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid in 2018.

In addition to her duties at Berkeley, she’s a member of the Board of Trustees and Chair of the Diversity Equity and Inclusion Committee for the Law School Admissions Council.

Can you start by giving an overview of the more distinctive elements of the Berkeley Law JD program? [2:08]It’s a little bit challenging to encapsulate them, but I will try to hit some of them and I imagine through the rest of the questions, others may emerge.

I like to start with the first year because frankly, it’s a point of distinction between us and a lot of our peer schools. We are firm believers that there are a lot of law schools that give a really great education and it becomes more about fit and where you want to spend three years as well as what in particular you want to get out of it.

One of the places where we are different is in what we will allow people to do in the first year. You may have this idea that all of the curriculum in the first year is set and you just sort of suffer through it and then you get to do fun stuff in your second and third years. That’s the case probably in many places, but certainly not the case at Berkeley.

We made a really distinct choice, many years ago that if we’re going to recruit, and we do like to recruit students who have a strong track record of engagement, then we should allow them to be engaged and to do what they care about most. That shouldn’t take away from, but augment their experience. We will allow people to join any of the journals except California Law Reviews as first-year students.

We’ll allow students to get involved in our pro bono program, which has a number of distinct aspects, but the most well-recognized is the student-initiated legal projects, which are hands-on legal work, supervised by attorneys and community partners. First-year law students are actually doing things that make a difference like representing someone who is in the process of seeking asylum. There are over 40 of them this year.

We also let people try out for the competition team. If you’re someone who’s really passionate about moot court or mock trial and you plan to be a litigator and you want to keep doing that, you can do that in your first year.

Similarly, the curriculum is actually not nearly as fixed as it used to be. We went through curricular reform a few years ago, and we made the decision to remove property, which is typically one of the core required courses, not only as a first-year requirement but as a graduation requirement.

We also took a unit from torts and reduced it by a unit to add a unit, which sort of equates to hours in legal education to the legal research and writing program so that people were getting more practice, developing more skills, and having more examples of their writing also to enter the employment market with. Functionally, that means that there are three required courses in legal research and writing in the fall. Then in the spring, there’s only one remaining required course, plus written and oral advocacy.

Many students would choose to take constitutional law, which is a graduation requirement, but even if you do, you still have remaining units to take an elective and frankly, you could take two or three depending on the number of units. That has really opened things up. We had a lot of interesting conversations about it, but I do think it speaks to the fact that we like people who are highly specialized. These are people who want to go into patent law and don’t need to wait out for the first year to get involved in the things that they care about. They’re also people who are creative explorers looking to put together different aspects of the curriculum and have them be informed by one another from the very beginning.

Beyond that, I mean I think there’s an incredible breadth and depth of curriculum here. The faculty actually enjoy teaching, which is hard to express and sometimes sounds like a little too muchmarketing. I think Dean Chemerinsky, is a really great example of someone who’s an incredible leader and thinker, but also who loves to teach. He teaches constitutional law every spring to first-year students and usually teaches either criminal procedure or first amendment law in the fall to 2Ls and 3Ls. That really sets the tone.

The only other thing I’ll say is that I think that the education, curriculum, and opportunities at Berkeley really emphasize experiential education and interdisciplinary education. Beyond the pro bono program, we have 14 clinics, six in-house, and eight in the community. We have a really robust field placement program that includes opportunities to go to the Hague for a semester or Washington D.C. or something along those lines. You could also do it part-time and locally while taking classes. It’s sort of infused. There are all of these places you can really take what you’ve learned in the classroom and practice it in some way.

We really fundamentally believe that most of the complex legal problems in the world are not going to be solved by a single discipline if that makes sense. It makes sense to build yourself a set of courses that include environmental law and racial justice and criminal law and international law. There are problems that are cross-national, complex things like immigration driven by global climate change. Those are the kinds of thinkers that we hope to enroll and then that’s the kind of education that we hope to provide.

Does the flexibility in the curriculum enhance students’ abilities to get internships between the first and second year? [7:09]Potentially. We have a very strong law and technology or intellectual property program, for example. We’re adjacent to Silicon Valley, and also there’s a huge biotech hub in San Francisco and in the East Bay. So if there’s a firm that knows they’re looking to hire people who are going to be patent prosecutors or something along those lines, then they’re very interested in getting their hands on those students quite early. It does help that the students have had some intro to IP, patent, or something else that they can take in their first semester before they go off into a law firm to learn how to be a summer associate, which is a unique experience unto itself.

Can you touch on the grading system which is supposed to enhance collaboration and cooperation and create a positive culture at UC Berkeley Law? [8:36]

Yeah, it is fairly different. There are some other schools that have their versions of alternative grading, which I would broadly describe as just non-A through F’s.

You’re still getting evaluated. I sometimes say we give out grades, not hugs. You actually do get feedback. It’s still on a curve but the way that it works is that it’s not tied to the A through F system. So you’ll never have a GPA or a class rank. But essentially the top 10% of any given class will get an HH, which is high honors. The next 30% will get an H, which is honors, and then the remainder of the students will get a pass. It is possible to get a restricted pass or a low pass or a non-pass. It’s extremely unusual but it does exist.

There is accountability. I have some theories about this and sort of its effect on culture. I don’t know that it changes the culture in the way people think it does. Somehow people think, “Ah, I don’t have to worry about grades. I’ll just be nice now.” I don’t think that’s how it actually works. People worked really hard to get here, and they don’t stop being people who are very interested in working very hard and doing really well. Obviously, there are a lot of benchmarks along the way. Things like summer jobs and clerkships, and all of those kinds of opportunities that people are fairly focused on.

I think if you get into Berkeley, you get into a lot of great schools, usually. There’s a lot of overlap with many of our peer schools. As I mentioned in the beginning, I think it comes down to fit. So if you’ve had an experience where you were at an extremely competitive undergraduate school and you think, “Well, I’ve done that, I don’t particularly want to do it again.” One of the variables you start to look at is the culture and community variable, which is really best understood if you go to visit, rather than listening to anyone like me talk about it.

But if that is important to you as you weigh it against things like net cost or placement or bar pass or something else, then you choose based on it. If you choose based on it, you typically hold it as a value so it becomes this shared value of collaboration. We pick Berkeley for a different experience, therefore we work hard to create a different experience. There’s not a lot we as administrators could do to make people be kind.

I try to pick kind people when I’m admitting them, but it’s sort of a self-reinforcing system. What I will say about the grades is that you still will spend most of your time in the library, but you have space to say, “Well, I’m not so worried about how I’m going to do in torts. It creates a little bit of breathing room. Or people can say, “I’d like to join a journal because I’d like to work on the citations part of this and I think it’ll be helpful in my career search, et cetera.” Or “I’m not enjoying much at all about the first-year curriculum, but I came here to do workers’ rights and labor work and so I’m going to get involved in some of those projects through pro bono and it’s going to remind me kind of my why. So when I’m struggling in a particular class or just with law school and why I chose to come.”

You were quoted as saying that removing the test requirement could actually increase disparities in law school admissions. How do you see that happening? [12:50]

If anyone can’t fall asleep at night, they can go read the comments of the American Bar Association. One of them was co-written by me and a colleague at the University of Wisconsin.

It’s 19 pages long because I approached the question of whether we need a test and what the role of the test is with an attempt to be open-minded about it. Frequently we get cited as people who are opposed to getting rid of the test. People assume that somehow we’re out here on a campaign for the law school admissions council and for the test. I spent a lot of this summer frankly just doing independent research because the reality is I hadn’t thought a lot about it. I actually have a high school senior going through the college application process right now, and we’re dealing with the question of what it means to go test-optional. It’s been an interesting time. I did a ton of my own research and then wrote this lengthy memo with footnotes and all.

What really became problematic for me, as someone who reads thousands of applications every year, is that a lot of people are making rules who don’t actually do this work. One of the things that became true for me, and the research seemed to bear out is that there’s just as much disparity in GPA. That disparity in GPA is compounded by limited access for some people to more elite institutions. You get the double whammy of a GPA that might not be an exceptionally high GPA and a GPA that might not be high or is high at an institution where there’s the likelihood of bias in terms of people’s sense of the reputation of that institution.

There is research that shows that the students who were admitted test optional for undergrad were not more racially diverse, or maybe just slightly for some groups and that actually there were fewer people admitted who were low-income and first-generation college students. It actually hurt some people while maybe just slightly helping some other people. Then there’s emerging research that maybe the attrition rates and graduation rates might not be the same.

I worry a little bit about that suggesting something around mismatch, which I really struggle with. My interest is more from a reader’s perspective. We’re doing a holistic read. There are only two places where there are numbers. One is the GPA and one is a test score. If you remove test scores from the equation, I don’t know that schools are, at least initially, going to be very adept at figuring out how to do something like score personal statements or score interviews or add numbers back in, which is helpful when you’re dealing with an applicant pool of my size and creates a sense of reliance on undergraduate GPA.

That’s affected by so many things and becomes really problematic, especially as you put the questions of prestige together with the questions of performance. I was just telling someone as I was reading binding early decision applications, that this is what people don’t understand. At some schools, there were as many people, or more, admitted because of their test scores as there might have been who were not admitted because of their test scores.

I had someone apply from a small Christian college in the middle of the country. I don’t know much about it. I looked at the transcript really carefully. I read the letters of recommendation really carefully. I still was sort of not sure exactly what it meant. I’ve never seen an applicant from the school. They had an exceptionally high LSAT score. So the first and fundamental question of whether I think they could be academically successful through the combination of their performance at undergrad and LSAT, I felt fine about that. Then I moved on to things in terms of other qualifications. And that going away is going to be a challenge.

From my perspective, and I’ve also read thousands of applications at this point in time, are there definitely times when the test is going to be the piece of evidence? What if somebody worked their way through undergraduate college? Even at a public Ivy. They’re going to have struggled with some grades. But if they have the time or they focus for a little while on the test, they might test great. [17:47]

When we talk about applications, I say that applicants perceive this as a three-part test, which is, “Do I have a good enough LSAT score?,” “Do I have a good enough GPA?,” and “Do I have good enough extracurriculars?” which is not at all the endeavor that we’re engaged in. The first question is, “Do we think you can come and do the work?” The next one is, “What will you contribute beyond being a good student?” And the third is, “Are you a good fit for our institution?”

We’re very careful then to say, even with GPA, it’s much more complicated than that. It’s the academic record or history as an indicator and predictor of future success. GPA is nestled in a collection of factors that include rigor, study, age of grades, major obligations outside, division one athletes, full-time employees, people who are single parents, people who are reentry students, and so on. Also, the explanations people provide are important. They had a medical emergency. They had a death in the family. There’s all of the juicy context.

There are other kinds of patterns. They have a high GPA, but they took two classes pass/fail every single semester. There’s just all kinds of possible stuff. People somehow don’t think that’s true for the LSAT. Of course, it’s true for the LSAT. It’s why we have a prompt to say, “If you don’t believe that your test scores are indicative of your potential, tell us why. What should I be relying on instead in your record?” There are multiple test scores and patterns of cancellation, but now there are things that we don’t see which are problematic like the use of score preview, test prep programs, et cetera. And that can be trickier.

I watched the debate at the American Bar Association Council when they were discussing this and someone raised the issue of, “Why do we need to do this?” We raised this in our memo. Why do we need to do this when any school could just decide to weigh the test less? We’re told to use a test, but we’re not told how to use that test or how much importance to give it. So a school that really wants to radically depart from this idea of being driven by tests or that is really disturbed by what is a demonstrated score gap for racial minorities could simply say, “We require the LSAT per the ABA standards and we just don’t give it a lot of weight.”

The reason people don’t do that, which is a segue into your next question, I think largely has to do with US News & World Report. There was this strange piece of that conversation where someone said, “Well, maybe this will change” because they were referencing the changes the schools had announced that they weren’t going to participate in US News & World Report. It seems very strange to me to change something about the admissions process and requirements that schools and admissions professionals are saying is helpful to them because we don’t like the behavior of a third party and the influence of the third party on the schools themselves and the pressure it creates for us to emphasize something we don’t think should be emphasized.

Part of why I think it’s exciting to see schools depart from US News & World Report is because it’s taking what we have griped about for years and actually putting it out into the world. I think if we do more of that, there’s a way to keep test scores a part of the process, but lead courageously in terms of how we treat and regard those scores. But we are where we are. I’m a realist. We have two years to figure this out. The new rule, assuming it gets through the state council house of delegates will be implemented in application season ’25-’26.

Berkeley Law is no longer participating in the US News rankings. I gather you’re celebrating the fact that you won’t have to fill out those rankings reports. Are there any misgivings? [22:04]

Yeah. I just got a week of my life back, but that was not the motivation.

We can’t control what US News & World Report does, and I think they have already said pretty clearly in public that they’re going to continue to rank schools. We’re a public institution, so a lot of our information is public. In fact, we are going to form a committee to think about how we can represent on our website using some public-facing dashboards and other tools, a lot of this information, because we agree and feel that the consumer information is important and that ABA 509 reports are helpful, but it might be useful to visualize that data in a different way. It could be useful to provide more data than we would otherwise provide elsewhere.

Most of it’s going to be available. I think there are some schools right now that maybe would withdraw if not for the fact that they think the thing that helps them the most is per pupil expenditures, which is probably the only piece of data US News & World Report really can’t get its hands on without the school volunteering it.

If you’re a school saying, “Our reputational ranking and all these other things are not so great, but per pupil expenditures are exceptionally high, that’s what has pushed us into the top 20.” I can understand some real reticence to leave. Ultimately, I think ours was not a decision, and I’ll speak for myself, but from my perspective, I was an advocate for non-participation, and it was a decision that didn’t have to do with strategy.

I think if we had gone down the strategy wormhole of, “How does this help us? How might this hurt us? What are our peers doing?” then we’re still living in a world where rankings reign supreme and I’m still waking up in mid-March going, “Oh my gosh. I’m going to live and die by what someone on a website thinks of my school,” which is just silly. Part of it was this desire to not be in that world so much anymore.

We are ranked by many entities that are not US News & World Report. There are rankings on specialties. There are rankings for people who have blogs. There are rankings for people who are consultants. There are just so many ways and that’s always going to be true. But we are imbuing this particular ranking with some special significance because we’re volunteering data that wouldn’t otherwise be available and then we were railing against it or sort of complaining about it. That just seems absurd, frankly.

We didn’t make a forever decision. I don’t know how other schools have thought about that. I still personally have an issue with the fact that the methodology is entirely opaque, that the only way we can see and reverse engineer what analysis was applied is by purchasing for a fee, the full data set, and that it changes from year to year. To me, if you’re providing a tool to help people really understand clearly with transparency how to compare schools, you would need to keep the methodology stable for chunks of time and see how schools perform against that methodology.

If you change it every single year, it doesn’t actually do that anymore. I would personally love to see a commitment to make the methodology more transparent and then to hold it stable for a period of time and convene a group of deans or leaders in legal education to help inform changes periodically every three or five years to that methodology to reflect a changing environment.

I’m not going to get what I want, just to be clear. Nobody is asking me either, so that’s totally fine. But it’s been really fascinating. I really applaud the deans at Yale and at Harvard as well for going out front on this issue. We were the third school. There have been many schools that have followed both public and private. But I do think that our colleagues at those schools recognized they were in a unique position and took the initial step. Yale has never not been number one. It’s absurd if US News report suddenly ranks them 12. So I just want to give credit where credit is due. That foresight in leadership has really been transformative.

Someone asked whether or not we thought somehow this was a negotiation tactic. I actually don’t think that US News & World Report cares a ton about law schools, but it would be really problematic if undergraduate institutions or business schools chose not to participate as those schools draw from a more international audience. I think to the extent that anyone is worried that it might become a cross-discipline trend, that’s what’s likely to bring folks to the negotiation table and not just us drawing the line in the sand.

Considering the formal application deadline is February 15th and it’s now January, is it too late to apply? Are applicants at a disadvantage applying closer to the deadline? [28:30]

It’s a great question, and a question I get all the time. It’s directly related to an understanding and misunderstanding of what rolling admissions mean. We are a school that employs rolling admission, which is to say we don’t wait until February 16th to crack open 6,000 applications and try to read them in the next four weeks. We start reading them as they come in and we start making decisions as they come in.

I think people are right to suspect that as a pure numbers game, their “chances” look worse in February. Picture the lines on a graph. In September, we have very few applicants, and all of those 800-900 spots that we’re going to offer. Over time we start filling those seats. Then the line for applicants isn’t a straight line up, it’s more like a bumpy line that has a lot to do with LSAT administration and score releases. What is absolutely true is that we get a spike at the end of the cycle as people approach the deadline. If your odds are 100 apps and 800 spots in September, that looks pretty good. If your odds are 2,000 apps and 100 spots in February, that doesn’t look so good.

We would be terrible at our job if we said, “We have an application deadline on February 15th, but we’re just done admitting people on January 15th,” or something along those lines. We know that there are good applicants that are coming. We know that there are people for whom something happened in their test administration in November and they really feel like they need to take the January test to show us what their true ability is. We know that there are people who don’t have access to the same kind of pre-law advising that explains some of this to them and the benefits of applying early. We absolutely have space in the class in February. It would also be very silly of me to admit someone who I didn’t think was a great person for Berkeley, simply because they applied in October or to deny someone who was amazing simply because they applied in February.

When you zoom out to the 10,000-foot view, there is an impact. When I am in a given person’s application, there isn’t an impact. If I read someone who got assigned to me on the 15th and I was reading them on the 20th and I knew we have no space but they were amazing, I would say, “Well Dean Chemerinsky, we’re going to be a person over.” Because we’d want them. So in that sense, I don’t think people need to stress about it impacting them directly.

In the world of law admissions, there are only so many things that people can control. You can’t control what you did as an undergrad and what your LSAC or GPA are but you can control when you apply. What we tend to tell people is that because that’s something that you can control and because there’s at least the potential for a little bit of benefit earlier in the cycle, we encourage you to apply at the earliest point at which you have your strongest application prepared. That’s the general advice.

The second part of this question we get is if we’re going to run out of money. We do both initial gift aid offers and a process called reconsideration. Even if you didn’t get an initial gifted offer, it wouldn’t be because of the time you applied, but if you did, you could still request reconsideration, which doesn’t open until mid-March after our admit weekend. That’s a separate set of money and we plan for this phased approach. There are absolutely scholarships available to someone who applied on February 15th and got admitted.

Who should apply via the binding early decision program? Does it have a higher acceptance rate than a regular decision? [32:33]

It’s a timely question as we sent out decisions yesterday. Our binding early decision program requires some things. It requires you to apply by mid-November. It requires you to have taken an LSAT or a test no later than sort of October so we can get your scores in. It requires you to write an essay describing why you applied to Berkeley. It requires you to sign a binding early decision agreement signifying that you actually understand what you’re entering into, which is to say that if you are accepted, you are firmly committed to attending Berkeley and you must withdraw your application from everywhere else where you’ve applied even if you haven’t received a decision.

On the flip side, I feel really strongly that one of the more inequitable things in admissions, in general, is binding early decision programs that take a fair number of people, particularly at the undergraduate level, but do not offer non-loan financial support at that time.

When I launched this program a few years ago, we launched it with a $25,000 scholarship award. We didn’t just make that number up. $25,000 per year, or $75,000 total, was the number tied to the average award of anyone admitted the previous year. I could say with a straight face that you were not at a financial disadvantage. You were guaranteed, in fact, what had been the average award for any student. Sure, you’ll never know whether you might have gotten a larger award but we’re not trying to trick people into committing because I think they need the benefit of the admission. This year we upped that to $30,000 because last year’s average scholarship award was closer to $29,000. Because we’ve tied those two together, we made that adjustment.

Is that award regardless of need? [34:35]

Yes, and people can apply for need later in the spring and we will increase awards.

To answer your question of who should apply, people who know that Berkeley is absolutely their first choice. They don’t need to know if they got into other schools. They don’t need the option to stay closer to home. They don’t need a full ride or aren’t counting on one. I tend to think of it as people who would come to Berkeley for nothing. The fact that they can come to Berkeley and get a $90,000 scholarship spread over three years, they’re over the moon about that.

I don’t think that most people can apply by an early decision and say, “Oh, I’m just so relieved to be done on December 6th and I don’t need to know whether if I would’ve gotten into those other 15 schools and I don’t need to know if I would’ve gotten a full ride somewhere.” I think we’ve built a great program and I also think that you should approach all binding early decision programs as an applicant with a lot of skepticism about whether it’s the right thing for you. You’re giving something up when you are committing so that’s a really important consideration.

To answer your question about admit rate, it varies. I don’t have a set number that I must or may not admit. We’ve admitted between 35 and 60. It just depends on the caliber of the applicant and not on a fixed sort of number in terms of how many people we’re trying to enroll through that program.

Last year the number was lower than the overall admit rate, which was 12%. We took only 35 last year and I think the admit rate was about 10%. This year the admit rate is about 13.5% because we took a larger group although we also had 100 more applicants than in the past. It varies, but it’s about the average admit rate plus or minus a percentage point on either side.

Berkeley Law accepts the LSAT or the GRE and occasionally the GMAT. Approximately what percentage of the applicant pool is applying with the GRE or the GMAT? [37:29]

Oh, it’s small. This cycle is the first time we’ve accepted the GRE with no questions asked.

We took the GRE in the past as a pilot program like we take the GMAT. Because the numbers are so small, it’s hard to study how those people have actually performed. We only accepted the tests from people who were applying to a joint degree program or who had taken the test in the last few years for the purpose of applying to another masters or PhD program.

That kept the numbers very, very small. I can’t tell you this year how many people will apply with the GRE. I expect it to be more. We are going to have to look back at the cycle and crunch the numbers. Right now my eyes are seeing a lot of GRE score reports, but it’s also because we’re requiring you to send the GRE score report even if you have an LSAT. If you took the GRE because they were required for the ABA to report the scores of people who took either or both tests even if we didn’t use it for admission.

I’m seeing a ton of them, but if they’re applying with LSAT, we really consider them LSAT test takers. There will be a little number crunching that has to be done and the question of how many people were GRE applicants versus how many people were GRE plus LSAT applicants is unclear at this stage.

One of the things that’s fascinating is proponents of the GRE, or just maybe of expanded test options. They don’t think the LSAT is the end all be all in a variety of ways. I think there are some applicants who think, “I’ve heard the LSAT is really hard. I took the GRE. Well, maybe that’s better.” What’s fascinating is that the LSAT is just a score across all of the three sections that are scored when you take the test.

With the GRE, we get subsection scores. There’s actually much more data for us which could be good or not good for someone. I could say, “I’m not so worried that you didn’t score in the 97th percentile in the quantitative section, but I’m pretty worried that you only scored in the 50th percentile in writing.” Suddenly I know that as opposed to the LSAT writing sample, which is unscored. There are some interesting pros and cons at work and it has been fascinating to see more data.

Do you have any suggestions for how applicants should choose which test to take and submit? [40:15]

My general advice right now, and obviously, this advice is only good from 2023 to 2025 is that I would take the LSAT, if it were me or if I were advising my kid. The plain reality is that not all schools accept the GRE and far fewer except the GMAT. If you’re making a pure choice, unless your list of schools is exclusively GRE-accepting schools and unless you feel like you can get your hands on some data that helps you understand how your GRE score compares to people who’ve been admitted at that school with a GRE, which is also elusive, I think that you’re wise to take the LSAT. It’s just more portable.

You could apply to a bunch of schools and then think, “This seems like a competitive cycle. I might want to apply to a few more schools.” There are things you just can’t know. And if there are those few schools that don’t take the GRE, then you’re signing up for the LSAT in January or in March. That can be really problematic.

What’s your number one tip for the personal statement? [41:27]

I’m going to say: keep it personal.

Don’t write about a student in your second-grade class that you’re teaching. Tell your story. I am not especially interested in a description of where you are right now and where you plan to go. You should think about the personal statement as more like a proxy for an interview.

I’m very interested in you telling me something about your journey to this point and with a certain amount of momentum, that feels like you going to law school is the necessary and inevitable conclusion of that tale. Tell me how you grew up, why you care about the things that you care about, the way that you see the world, and how that lens has been shaped by personal experiences. People can talk about their childhood. People can talk about something they did in college. People can talk about work, but ultimately we’re trying to learn more about you.

The metaphor I sometimes use is rounds of interviews. The first interview for a job is to look at your resume. Does this person seem qualified? That’s not your personal statement. That’s other aspects of your application. And then I invite you in for an interview in my office, and you’re wearing a suit, and it’s very formal. I have your resume and I am sort of checking if you have the skills. There are some generic questions, but if you got over that hurdle, the next thing I’d probably do is try to set up an hour where we could meet for coffee, or you could meet with me and my team for lunch. In that moment, you would not probably be dressed in a suit, nor would I, and we would be talking about very different things. “Where did you grow up? What interests you about this? I’m just so curious about how you came to want to work in admissions. Tell me more about that.”

That’s the conversation that I think the personal statement is attempting to simulate. If you are extremely business-like and it’s not particularly personal, you’re really operating the space of that in-office interview. I just don’t get to know you as well, and it would be unlikely if I were selecting someone for a job here that I would pick the person who I didn’t know as well.

I sometimes refer to admissions deans as the keepers of the culture. We’re responsible for 85% of the people in the building so we really care about knowing who you are in some way. We don’t have interviews, at least not at this time. This is it. This is your shot. If there’s something that you need to say, say it.

Do you encourage applicants to submit addenda and are there any addenda that you prefer to see? [45:12]

I would maybe break the group that you’re referencing up into two or three categories. One would be optional statements, and for us that’s the why Berkeley statement and the diversity statement, which is what you will contribute in terms of diversity. Those are very helpful as supplements to your personal statement.

Your personal statement should be the foundation and everything else is helpful information that surrounds it and enhances or deepens our understanding of some elements of it. I really enjoy reading either or both of those. Our personal statement is up to four pages, which is fairly unusual. I will say that there are people who will write a four-page personal statement that does the work of also answering the questions of why Berkeley and what will they bring in terms of diversity and how is that shaped their viewpoint in their personal statements. That’s why they’re optional. It’s not a strict requirement, but especially if you’ve written a shorter personal statement that you’re maybe using for more than one school, I would encourage you to write the optional statements.

There are required addenda for character, fitness, and prior matriculation. There is also an optional addendum that asks, “If you don’t believe that your academic record GPA or LSAT scores test scores are indicative of your potential for success, please tell us why and what is.” Then there’s just the world of broad addenda, which is things I didn’t ask for, and you want to send me. If you think about it that way and you narrowly constrain addenda as things I didn’t ask for, but you want to send me, that list is probably pretty short. I don’t actually really want to receive your honor thesis or your photography portfolio or something along those lines that’s just not going to be helpful in my analysis.

But I do think that if there’s something that we should know, especially when understanding something related to your work experience or lack thereof, your academic history and your test scores, then you really should find a place to put it. In all likelihood, that’s an addendum that is not taking up space in any of your other statements.

Do you like to see work experience that is closely related to law working in a legal office or legal clinic? [47:41]

We like to see experience. I have no preference for it being law-related. I think there’s a tendency to think that being a paralegal or doing an internship at a law firm is somehow going to be the cherry on top of your application, and that’s just not the case. Oftentimes, when you’re at a law firm, what you’re really doing is very mundane and not very interesting work whatsoever. Other times it might be quite dynamic and interesting.

Fundamentally, we really do like people with experience. I don’t care if it’s experience accrued in undergraduate. There’s no requirement that it be a postgraduate experience. Have you been busy? What do you do with your time? Is it leadership? Is it campus involvement? Is it helping your family run a business? What, beyond being a student, do you do?

That kind of goes to that second question I referenced. What will you contribute beyond being a good student? For a lot of people that is post-graduate experience. Sometimes that’s also in getting a master’s degree or getting a teaching credential. Sometimes it’s people who have traveled, taught English in another country, or just taken a break from law school.

Mainly, I’m very interested in knowing that the class is going to be full of people who have a track record of engagement and who are the kind ofpeople who will take action.

That’s kind of the Berkeley ethos, the” let’s do something about it” attitude. Demonstrating that you’re someone who has had that draw to do something is helpful. You could be a 20-year-old undergraduate who fulfills that, absolutely and you could be someone who has been working in organic farming and community organizing for three years and has realized that the way they want to make a change in the world is to get a law degree. That’s also very reasonable.

You have a JD so you obviously applied to law school. What would you today tell your applicant self if you could? [50:23]

That’s a good question. What I often say when asked what I would tell people that I didn’t know at the time, but really worked out for me, was to not listen to people who tell you that your chances are non-existent or that you have no right applying to that school.

I had the benefit of ignorance. I just applied to the schools that I thought I would love to be at. I liked what they offered. Their faculty seemed great. Their programs were a good fit for me and I went for it. It worked out fine. I just think there are so many people now whose lists are constrained by their perception or other people’s perception of whether or not they can be admitted.

If I had to tell myself something back then, it actually probably would’ve been not to be just as interested in schools around ranking as frankly, I was, which is ironic. We do grow and change, Linda.

It’s like me telling people who were stressed about jobs, “I promise you your first legal job will not be your last legal job. You’re not signing a contract forever.” So I had some options and I chose the school, which was a great school, but a school I think at the time that was number two in the country. I had a really lovely time, but also many things about legal education have changed.

There were very few people that grew up in a very low-income household, which I did. I didn’t really think about that as a variable. It was a little bit challenging for me to suddenly be in an environment with people who were third-generation graduates at the school. There were some variables I wish I had thought about and sort of kicked the tires a little bit more around what I was looking for. Part of that, to be clear, was my own lack of experience, ironically. I applied to law school at 21 and went directly from undergrad.

The advice I would give to anyone now would be to take some time off. Law school will still be there. You’ll only be a better applicant for waiting a little bit. But I didn’t ask some of the questions that I now try really hard to counsel people to ask even if it means they don’t pick Berkeley. Who do you want to be around for three years? What kind of environment are you looking for? Where do you see yourself ultimately ending up, et cetera.

It felt very strange to even contemplate at the time saying no to a school that was that school. That probably is true for a lot of people now but I had many other really good options and I think had I made a less reflexive or automatic decision, I might have had a different experience.

Is there anything you would’ve liked me to ask? [54:03]

Your questions are fantastic.

I think one question that should get asked more in general is, “Are your students happy?” I cannot say that every student at Berkeley is…I mean, it’s also finals and it’s a terrible time to ask. Nobody is happy right now. But I think that we, as an industry, produce far too many unhappy attorneys. There’s a study that said something like 70% of attorneys wouldn’t recommend the profession.

I think if we figured out a way, whether it’s through rankings or elsewhere, to think about how we determine whether students are happy, even if things are really hard and they’re challenged, that we would be better served not just as legal educators but as members of the profession. This is an incredibly important profession and it requires a certain amount of stamina, and stamina can be fed by anxiety or joy. I think we should work for it to be fed more by joy.

Where can listeners learn more about Berkeley Law? [55:32]

I would go to our main website, www.law.berkeley.edu and poke around to see what we have to offer.

Related links:

• Berkeley Law Admissions
• Are You Ready for Law School? (Accepted’s Law School Admissions Quiz)
• 5 Fatal Flaws to Avoid in Your Law School Application Essays

Related shows:

• How to Get Into Georgetown Law | Accepted
• Duke Law Interview with Dean Mark Hill
• UVA Law interview with Dean Blazer
• USC Gould Law School Interview with Dean Kirschner
• UCLA Law School: How to Get Accepted

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Learn what you can do to prepare for your future employment [Show Summary]Diana Economy, former Head of Admissions at Michigan Ross and Senior Talent Acquisition Manager at Vail Resorts, offers her unique perspective on how students can prepare for future employment even while applying to or completing an MBA program.

Interview with Diana Economy, former Head of Admissions at Michigan Ross and Senior Talent Acquisition Manager at Vail Resorts [Show Notes]Welcome to the 501st episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for listening. I hope you tuned into our very special 500th episode last week. If not, you can still catch it.

You’ve seen the stats that most people have a great return on their MBA investment, but what about you? Are you going to see that kind of return? How much will it be? How much can you anticipate? We’ve created a tool that will help you assess whether the MBA is going to be a good investment for you. Just go to accepted.com/mbaroicalc, complete the brief questionnaire, and you’ll not only get an assessment but also the opportunity to calculate different scenarios. And it’s all free.

It gives me great pleasure to have back on Admissions Straight Talk, Diana Economy, Senior Talent Acquisition Manager – Programs and International for Vail Resorts, and formerly the Director of Full-Time MBA Admissions at Michigan Ross. After graduating with a BA in Organization Studies from the University of Michigan, Diana worked in talent management for companies like Kearney and Kirkland & Ellis. She returned to Ross and earned her MBA in 2010, and then again worked for Kirkland & Ellis and BCG before returning to Ross as Associate Director of Admissions. She was the Director of Admissions for the Michigan Ross Full-Time MBA program from 2017 until just this past July when Diana joined Vail Resort.

Before we get into the interview, I have to ask how’s the skiing? [2:35]Oh my gosh, Linda, I have never thought so much about snow. It’s going well so far. It’s always kind of fun to hear as the resorts are beginning to get the snow and opening. Especially in the work that we do with talent acquisition, a lot of folks are starting over the course of the next month. It’s a really exciting time in the industry.

What is the common thread between recruiting MBA students and recruiting talent for Vail Resorts? [3:16]It’s really interesting, given the cyclical nature of the admissions cycle and, of course, the cyclical nature of the ski season. A lot of our resorts are open through the summer as well, but no question that we’re hitting the Super Bowl timeframe of the operations. As I think about what I learned from my time in admissions, as well as working in talent acquisition and the kinds of things that we look for in our employees, I really find that people who have a good sense of who they are and how they can contribute, those qualities translate both to admissions committees and to our guests.

If any of you have been to ski resorts or resorts in general and you think about the people that you interact with, whether it’s somebody who’s running the lift or doing these other things, they’re very engaging, they’re very natural in doing that. Of course, an MBA is doing a very different type of work and a different skill set is required to get into the MBA program. But there’s something to be said about those who thrive in an MBA program and their ability to build those connections and have the ability to impact and influence those around them that I see as very fluid between both the MBA admissions and recruiting that I did and what we look for in great talent at Vail Resorts.

I find your focus on contribution very interesting, especially when you talk about networking, because networking has such a strong connotation of “what’s in it for me.” [4:46]You’re right. When we’re reading applications and admissions, one of the things you’re thinking about is “Who is this person going to be when they’re sitting in the classroom? What kind of contribution are they going to make there? Who is this person when they’re on a team of people where there’s no leader on the team, and everybody has to work together to figure out how to get to the output for the class assignment? Who is this person at 10 o’clock at night?” MBA programs are not like a 9:00 to 5:00 job where you go home, and you’re somebody else. It’s very fluid. There are a lot of social experiences, academic experiences, career, and cultural experiences, and I think moving in and out of those experiences and being authentic and natural to who you are, as well as open-minded to learn from those around you is very important.

How do you suggest people choose where to apply and, if accepted, where to attend among multiple acceptances? [6:04]This is an interesting question in light of something you and I have been talking about online, which is law schools not using rankings anymore. I think a common answer here might be that a lot of people look to the rankings first to figure out where to apply. Something I’ve always said is that rankings, or anything else, need to go much deeper than that. One of the things that I think COVID brought forward for candidates is the many ways to engage with schools now. They used to wait for an admissions officer to come to their country or location, and they’d only come once, and this was the one chance to interact with a school. Maybe there were a few virtual events, but students were really relying on a website.

Now, there are so many virtual office hours, engagement opportunities, and on-demand content that are really prescriptive about what the experience is going to be like. I know at Michigan Ross, we had over 300 student ambassadors, and you could filter by their background, their interests, and where they were from. I always told people that if, at minimum, they just read the student ambassador bios on our site, they were going to get a really good idea of who’s in that program and the people they’d be learning with.

To hear firsthand about that directly from the people that are part of that community is invaluable and certainly goes well beyond the rankings. You’ll find the school if you’re listening for the right things. I would tell you as you’re taking notes, if you created a spreadsheet, the things that are important to me and I’d recommend you to write down are who you talked to and how you felt after. Not just what you heard from them, but did you enjoy that conversation? Would you want to speak to somebody else at that school? I think a lot of times if you talk to the one person at any given school that’s very much like you, you’re probably going to hear what you would expect to hear. But it’s in that second or third or fourth conversation with somebody else that might have different interests that you get some perspective. Are you hearing some similar themes with the way that the students react to the program? I think it’s in that voice that you’re hearing about the experience they’re articulating that you start to understand your own fit.

I’m not defending the rankings here, but I’ve always viewed them as stores of data. In that sense, they served a function and they were valuable. But as rankings, I think they were named for sales purposes and marketing purposes, and they worked in that sense. But they were terribly misnamed. [9:23]Very misnamed. They started at a time when people had much more limited access to data and information. You’re right, the number of students I find who don’t spend time thinking about what the rankings measure and compare them against their own value set. If you take a look at the US News, it’s 25% of admissions data. What does that really mean? It means GMAT, GPA, and a little bit on selectivity, how many people you’re selecting in with the number that have applied. That’s it. Otherwise, it’s what other deans think about your school and what recruiters think of your students. It’s not about job satisfaction, but what job did you get? Did you get it in a timely manner? And how much money are you making as a result?

If you care about the diversity of people in the classroom around you, that ranking doesn’t really measure that. There are so many pieces that people prioritize that are just not considered in the ranking.

What’s the most common mistake that you think applicants make in the process? [11:08]I think a lot of people think there’s a right answer for a school’s essay questions, and they Google it. They’ll search, “What is the right answer to school X’s essay questions?” and they use this external perspective to help inform their story. Now, it’s one thing to use this perspective to guide generally around themes, but if you do that and your own personal self-reflection is absent, the essays come across very generically. It comes across as “I’m writing what I think they want to hear” versus “I’m writing what I’m truly passionate about.”

I would say, whether an essay question asks you this or not, and probably most do not, I would answer the question for yourself of what you’re passionate about and why. I don’t think we give ourselves enough opportunity to have that exploration. What makes your heart race and makes you so excited to want to do it? What does that look like for you? I think if you hone in on these things, they’ll really come across in your essays.

There are more similarities than there are differences in post-MBA jobs. There’s a reason that a variety of industries recruit from the same type of program. I think if you understand what you’re driven by, that’s going to still be there. Once you get your MBA, you’re just going to get this toolkit around you that’s going to allow you to direct those interests and passions in a way that’s going to be most beneficial to you and to the company. I think people are surprised to realize that what the tech industry is looking for, what the consulting industry is looking for, and what they’re looking for in brand management are more similar than different. That last 20% to 30% that makes those roles different can be a material difference for you if you are self-aware of how you want to apply your skill set and the kind of environment or roles that might benefit from that.

How do you recommend students maximize their MBA experience and investment with employability in mind? [13:39]Every job that I’ve had post-MBA, I have gotten because of my network. Largely because of my MBA network. At Vail Resorts, I am working for two alums whom I love, who have done very well at Vail and who have painted this picture of what could be there. It wasn’t just the relationship that got me in the door, but it was their confidence and the way that they were articulating what the company has meant to them and how they have grown personally and professionally.

It helps that I had that conversation with somebody who knows me as well. It wasn’t just the network that opened the door, it was the further conversations that we had that allowed me to better understand my fit with the company and what that could look like going forward. That’s why I say when you talk to student ambassadors or alumni, you are really investing in a network for life. Not all networks are created equally. There’s a good bit of similarity between the top MBA programs and their networks, but there are some differences too. I think that’s up to candidates to explore through the set of conversations during the admissions process.

It sounds to me like you not only had a network, you had relationships. [15:18]You got it. That’s an important distinction. I’m glad you said that because you’re right, people think of networking as self-serving. Nobody’s going to remember you if you’re just a number. They’re not going to pick up the phone quite as easily as they would if they had a real connection with you.

I saw in Poets&Quants this week, John Byrne published an article that argues the decline in MBA applications over the last couple of years is not a cyclical downturn due to the type of job market but really a reset due to the increasing cost of the MBA. What’s your take? [15:50]That’s a good question. I will say COVID was such a weird timeframe for schools with this huge fluctuation in applications. I think candidates were trying to figure out their stability and what was happening next. As we see these tech layoffs now, I think there’s a new wave of what’s next. I will say that I’m hopeful. I think this is a boost in the need for innovation in the MBA program. I don’t think it’s a move away from the MBA program. I’m hoping it’s a bit of a call to action for schools to continue to innovate and grow and build with the market to get candidates what they need. I think in this new environment where candidates are expecting and craving more flexibility and more specialization and customization to the needs that they have, the schools are well prepared, especially with the academic customizations and things that you can do through an MBA program.

I think the next question for MBA programs, especially for a two-year residential program, is going to be whether or not it needs to be two full years. How many months are needed with your cohort to be able to build the relationships that you need to sustain your career? I will say after two years, you have very, very deep relationships. As the world has evolved, people want to get to the job market a little bit sooner. They want to be able to make money. Is there a hybrid experience that still allows you to engage with your cohort at some point? Maybe it’s just the final semester or some period of your second year that gives candidates that flexibility to be able to get the cohort experience, get the education that they need, but also start to try out these skills maybe a little sooner so that they can continue to build and grow those skills.

You can see it in the second year that folks will say, “I have a job lined up in 10 months, but I could be making some money now to help to offset some of these costs.” What does that look like? I’ll tell you, at Michigan Ross, there’s a strong focus on experiential learning. There are a lot of opportunities for students to take on very experiential opportunities. I presume that that has started to move more towards some paid opportunities that students are doing complimentary to their MBA experience.

When you’re hiring for management positions at Vail Resorts, what are you looking for? [19:06]In my role at Vail, I work on the talent acquisition strategy or the things that make talent acquisition go. When I’m doing international recruiting, it’s actually mostly students. It’s more similar than it is different to the work that I did at Ross. Having said that, I see some similarities, especially as you look for executives. As I talk to friends in other industry spaces, there’s this notion that somebody needs to be able to come in and be resilient and adaptable because everybody can say, “Okay, I’ve developed a set of hard skills, and I can run these reports and do these spreadsheets and manage these technical skills,” but I think businesses are changing so fast. Vail acquired a ton of resorts in the last 10 or 15 years. They went from a handful of resorts to 40+ resorts.

It’s not just the tech industry where you see this evolution of what the new business looks like. It’s other industries that maybe didn’t have as much change in the past that could be accelerating that change. A lot of businesses are looking for you to be adaptable to that. I think change is uncomfortable and a little scary for folks but I think the MBA is a great playground, if you will, for change. It’s a great space to try new things and adapt and flex those skills such that you can demonstrate them to employers. That’s probably what’s going to differentiate these laid-off tech workers. A lot of them have a technical skill set. Probably some are a little better than others, but let’s say most of them are more similar than they are different. What’s going to differentiate them? It might be their relationships or their ability to demonstrate that they can pivot and adapt to change.

How can career changers enhance their chances of making the pivot they hope to make even before they’re accepted to school? Maybe I’m computer programming and I want to go into general management and want to apply to an MBA program in the fall. What steps can I take now that will help me make that change? [21:55]We’re in November, so candidates might be applying now for next September. You mentioned that maybe they have some interest in general management or brand management or whatever the case is. There’s an inkling that they have developed, whether it’s through their own professional experience or otherwise, from hearing more about these other professions about what that future could look like. They’re starting to visualize themselves in that future. They’re starting to put together a career goal essay. They’re already thinking about that right now. I think there are so many ways to learn about what that future could look like. I know that Ross, over the course of the last month, just did a bunch of webinars, a full hour on why Ross for healthcare, why Ross for marketing, and why Ross for data and analytics.

Not only are you going to learn how that school is going to help prepare you to get into that field, but you’re also going to hear directly from people about what they did during their internships and why they chose the companies they did. That’s one small piece of a lot of this knowledge that’s out there about what these career paths really look like.

If you apply next fall, you’re literally only 12-14 months from doing your internship interview. I think people don’t realize that that starts in maybe December or January of your first year. You are a year away from needing to demonstrate a set of skills to a future employer. I think if you have some clarity around those skills and some space within your current job, this is the time to seek out a stretch project or experience that’s going to allow you to acquire a specific resume bullet or, at a minimum, bring more direct, applicable experience into an interview.

What’s a common misconception about the hiring process and talent acquisition? [24:52]I’m going to build from the first year of that MBA experience because I think for prospective MBA applicants, they don’t realize just how early the recruiting process starts. I don’t know if that’s necessarily a misconception, but just something that maybe there’s not as much awareness on. Just to give some context, a lot of schools over the course of the summer do a substantial amount so that when you hit the ground on day one of school, you probably have already had a lot of prep and focus on what your career path is intended to be. I think people think the MBA is two full years to explore. Do people go on one path on the internship and then change for their full-time job? Maybe. But I think it surprises people how fast that process happens.

Once you get into the networking period, which could be happening over the course of several months, and even into the interviews, the misconceptions that I see around the actual job process or experience is that people feel they have to be a certain way. Especially with consulting, companies looking for client-ready candidates. If you are only telling them about your data and analytics skills and not about your ability to build a team or relationships or develop a relationship with a client, they’re not going to pick you.

I think a misconception is just honing in on what they believe to be a particular skill. They do value that skill, but they value well-roundedness too. You have to make sure that you’re pulling in those stories to show the other parts of who you are. I will say if you went to engineering school and you are an engineer or have been in a technical role, you must, in the admissions process for in the networking and interview process for recruiting, demonstrate something other than your engineering skills and technical background. Show the ability for small talk.

You and I see this is different for international students too. It is really culturally different when international candidates from different parts of the world come, and they realize that the first five minutes of the conversation might be about the Michigan football game or about something that’s happening in the world or a variety of things that have nothing to do with the job. That takes practice. Again, it’s hard for Americans too, but in particular, there are nuances for international candidates. The schools work very closely to try to make sure that those cultural nuances translate and that the candidates are ready.

Do you think the withdrawal of Harvard, Yale, and Berkeley Law from the US News rankings are going to spill into business school? [28:19]I do and I’ll tell you some of the other trends that we saw that maybe took business school a little bit longer to catch onto. You saw test waivers happening earlier than the MBA programs were bringing those forward. It was for equity reasons, and they did it across campus. I think there’s something to be said if an action is taking place on your campus. It raises the awareness of the deans around you. You can bet that the deans of Harvard, Yale, and Berkeley Law schools talk to the deans of the business schools there. They do. They get together from time to time. It’s just the nature of how deans stay connected, interacted, and engaged. I am confident that the conversation will continue to evolve.

When the MBA programs or business schools decide to pull out, I think is an interesting point. If you’re a Yale or a Harvard, that’s a little bit different than the school that’s ranked number 27, deciding to do the same thing first. The domino effect, when it starts at the top, can sometimes move a little bit faster. I’ll be intrigued to see what happens here in the coming weeks.

I think the same question could be asked about test waivers. [29:35]When we started our test waiver at Michigan Ross, the top schools didn’t do it. It was a lot of discussion about what it would mean for the school. How do we maintain quality? What does it look like? What measures are we looking at for success? We also did it at a point at which people were saying, “I cannot get to a test center to be able to take the test.” Or, “I live in an environment that’s not great for me to have four dedicated hours to be able to take this test and perform my best.” When we heard that, we made adjustments based on the candidates’ situation. I’ll be honest, we made those adjustments thinking, “Well, we’re going to try this right now.” It was situational in the moment. We gathered data along the way and we now have data that says people that have the test waiver did well in the classroom. People that have the test waiver are still getting good job outcomes.

At Michigan Ross, it’s still only like 80% have the test and 20% do not. There are a number of candidates who choose to take the test as an added demonstration of their candidacy or maybe build up a deficiency they feel they have. It is still the case that a lot of people are taking tests. It’s probably because a lot of schools still require the test. They’re applying to schools where they need a test, but even as we move into this post-COVID world, Michigan Ross has continued their test waiver. We’ll see if that continues. But it’s in a new environment, and I think the fact that we saw some demonstrated success from it. There are other measures that we can take a look at to be able to determine both candidacy as well as scholarship.

How can someone get a job at Vail Resorts? [31:59]That’s a good question. There are so many jobs, Linda. This is one of those environments where I get a chance to work with people who run the mountains. They run lift operations or the tickets or the rental business or all these things. It’s fascinating to me just because there’s such amazing diversity of talent in the work that we are all doing collectively to make this a great place. One of the things that drew me to Vail was that we’re looking to create an experience of a lifetime for our customers and for our employees. For me, what I see is a drive and a passion for the people around me, whether it’s doing great work for the guests or whether it is how we support our employees.

You can imagine, during ski season, how many guests we’re getting and all the things that are happening. But we’re also thinking about how we can support employees’ growth and success. If you’re looking to work for Vail, it comes back to this drive to both bring the experience of a lifetime to our guests and an experience of a lifetime to our employees. If that motivates you, I think that that passion comes through, and you can figure out the opportunities within that will ultimately lead towards similar objectives.

Is there anything you would’ve liked me to ask you? [33:28]I don’t want people to be worried that the MBA is going away. I say that meaning people have to make their own assumptions and things about that. But I look at it as such a transformational experience. Like his experience of a lifetime for our employees and guests, that’s what the MBA is too. It’s an experience of a lifetime for students. I know that we hit on a theme of whether or not the MBA is still valuable. The MBA is what you make it. I think that when you go into that experience, if you’re mindful of what you want to get out of that experience and have a focus, it can be life-changing and truly transformational. I would say the question that I wish you would’ve asked is what else candidates should know about this great experience. Beyond the classes, MBA students are having incredible experiences, like going to a wedding in India with 50 of their classmates because one of their classmates is getting married. How often have you done that in your professional life, right? There are just going to be experiences that come up that you really can’t replicate outside of this very intensive, focused environment with so many great people around you. I hope you consider applying and I hope you consider applying to Michigan Ross.

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Invaluable insights into all aspects of the graduate admissions process [Show Summary]In celebration of Admissions Straight Talk’s 500th episode, Linda Abraham invites Accepted consultants to pose and answer the questions that students should be asking – and frequently don’t ask. This conversation is filled with invaluable insights that will benefit anybody preparing for graduate school.

Accepted consultants share invaluable insights into the questions that students should be asking [Show Notes]Welcome to the 500th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. This is a very special episode. It’s the 500th, and I am very proud of that. We’ve been working hard to present a particularly informative show. I’ve invited different Accepted consultants over the course of the past few weeks to respond to one question that each one believes applicants should ask and know the answer to. And they frequently don’t ask and, therefore, never learn the answer. So this is a collection of clips with different consultants – all experienced experts in their area of admissions – addressing different issues. I think you’ll find it invaluable as you apply. I’ve been finding it very interesting to hear what they’re asking and also what they’re answering.

I’m going to start with a question right now. What is the paradox at the heart of graduate admissions? I’ll tell you, you need to fit in and stand out. You can learn how to master that paradox by downloading Accepted’s free guide, Fitting In and Standing Out: The Paradox at the Heart of Admissions.

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Let’s start with our first guest, Cydney Foote, who is one of Accepted’s most experienced and, consequently, most beloved consultants. Before joining Accepted in 2001, Cydney was an administrator at the University of Washington School of Medicine. She has also written three ebooks on med school admissions, and she’s guided hundreds, if not thousands, of applicants to acceptance, mostly in the healthcare field.

The question for Cydney is: What’s a useful tool that applicants can and should use no matter what stage of the application process they’re in? [2:57][Cydney Foote] I think one of the most useful things that someone can do before they even start to write their application materials is to keep a journal. It sounds very simple. It sounds like something a little kid would do, but so many people will sit down to write their first question and they don’t know what to write about. If you keep a journal for the months, or even the years, before you start writing [applications], you can flip back through it and see what you’ve done. Often, you’ll see patterns arising from things that you enjoyed and things that you did well. It’s kind of the way that the universe is nudging you towards a certain area. A lot of that can just slip by you in your daily life as you’re running from one event to the next. If you’ll write it down just five minutes a day, then you’ll have a whole wealth of material to go back on and look through later.

Another really good reason to journal is that it helps you support your claims. This is one of the most severe flaws that I see in a lot of people’s writing in their first drafts is they will make claims about things that they did like, “I am a great team player,” “I’m a great leader,” or “I am a great communicator,” but without the examples to support that, there’s nothing that will help the person who’s reading the application believe that you are that. It’s not that they necessarily disbelieve you, but they don’t have anything to reference. If you have something written down, those examples can be used to support your claims, and it will just make your application process so much more powerful, compelling, and convincing.

There’s also a final reason for doing this. When you start to write your application, especially for medical school, but for any field, you’re going to be doing a lot of writing. If you’re not used to doing that on a daily basis, which you probably aren’t if you’re a science major, it can be difficult. If you will just take five minutes a day and start exercising your writing muscle, it will make the rest of the process feel so much easier when you finally dive in.

That’s great advice. In terms of what to include in the journal entries, do you recommend just focusing on what happened or perhaps what they learned from it? [5:22][Cydney Foote] I think both are useful. I think that a lot of people start out just writing about their daily activities: something that impressed them that they saw in the ER, something that a clinician did that they thought was really neat or that they said to them. It can be anything. But those concrete examples are really important in my opinion. As you start to break out and get more comfortable with writing, then I think you’ll start to notice things about what you think but it depends on how reflective you are as a person.

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I’d like to introduce our next guest, Dr. Valerie Wherley, who is the former Assistant Dean of Student Affairs at the William Beaumont School of Medicine and former Director of Pre-Health Advisement at Sacred Heart University. Dr. Wherley has over 20 years of experience working with successful pre-med, pre-health, and pre-masters students, helping them to create their most competitive applications. She brings that experience in guiding her clients at Accepted and in answering our question today.

The question for Dr. Wherley is: For any pre-health applicant, what is the benefit of revealing a hobby or two on your application? [7:11][Valerie Wherley] Well, first of all, thank you for having me. I love this question. I think there is great benefit in pre-health applicants revealing and sharing a hobby or two on their application. I will say that with a caveat. I do think when talking about a hobby, applicants should think about whether or not the hobby is meaningful. Can they reflect on what they have learned as a result of participating in this particular hobby in terms of skills acquired or things like interpersonal communication? Have they been participating in this hobby for a long-term period of time?

I think if they can think about those three aspects of the hobby, then it would qualify as being eligible for going on one of those pre-health applications. Hobbies are the portion of the application that reveals something very unique and interesting about an applicant. These pre-health applicants have done an incredible amount of work in terms of taking science classes, getting a competitive GPA, doing clinical work, and proving themselves in that domain. Hobbies are a way to reveal a specific component of themselves that is interesting and unique and maybe shows some diversity that could really click with a member of an admissions committee and really elevate that application into the next round.

One other thing is, hobbies also are that part that shows that applicants really understand the benefit of work-life balance. They not only devote time in the classroom into their clinical work, but also know how to unwind and unplug. When they get into graduate school, they are going to have to work very hard in class with didactic work and clinical work, but when they have time off, do they know how to give some time to themselves? Whether it’s dancing or singing or exercising, whatever it is, that’s really an important thing that admissions committees are looking for because it’s important for both mental health and wellness and even avoiding burnout.

I remember one of my earliest clients, this was well over 20 years ago, was a med medical school applicant. He was a butterfly collector and he listed it as one of his additional activities on the AMCAS application. He said every interviewer asked him about that hobby.

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It’s my pleasure now to introduce Dr. Karin Ash. Dr. Ash has her Ph.D. in Educational Psychology and Organizational Behavior from Cornell University. She has been an Accepted admissions consultant since 2015 after serving as Head of Career Services for both Cornell University and the Cornell Johnson School of Business. She also has worked in the engineering program at Cornell University.

Here is the question for Dr. Ash: What is the most important part of the application for applicants in the STEM field? [11:10][Karin Ash] Well, first of all, just in case anyone isn’t familiar with STEM, it’s Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math.

This isn’t an uncommon question and my response would be that all parts of the application are important, but you can’t change your GPA. It’s a fact. You can take the GRE only so many times, and your score is a fact. If you’re applying to top schools, you’re competing against a lot of other people who also have good scores. Those are facts. Your resume is a list of facts. In your references, there’s some room for creative thought on the part of the writer, and it’s your job to provide the facts to him or her to make sure that they can write a very detailed letter that provides examples that show how your skills are the right skills for that grad program and you’ll be successful.

But the essay is where you have the most room for creativity and to present yourself to an admissions committee. Why did you major in what you did? Why did you choose the work that you did? Why did you focus on the particular research area? You have more control over your essay than any other part of your application. I wouldn’t say that the essay is the most important part, but it’s a critical component that you have the control to steer.

Your motivations are where you really want to start in your thought process. Identify your goals, and then work backwards. How does your story directly relate to those goals? The other thing you can do is reach out to current students or recent alumni and learn more about the program from their perspective. You can learn more than you can get from a website, and you might be able to incorporate some of what you learn into your essay. I just think there’s so much more room for you to maneuver in an essay than any other part.

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I’d like to now welcome Kelly Wilson. Kelly has previously been a guest on Admissions Straight Talk, when she was the Executive Director for Master’s Admissions at Carnegie Mellon University, Tepper School of Business. Prior to that, she was Assistant Dean and Director of MBA Admissions at Georgetown McDonough, which I think is actually where I met you. She brings almost 25 years of admissions experience to us today.

The question for Kelly is: Admissions directors frequently say, “Be authentic, don’t write what you think we want to hear.” How can an applicant be authentic and put their best foot forward, especially when responding to goals questions, where the applicant is worried their goal is too distant from what they’ve done in the past. [15:10][Kelly Wilson] I think that’s a valid concern. From an applicant’s standpoint, there are times when I think the tendency is to think about what the admissions committee wants to hear. For me, that’s flawed thinking, but I understand why people think it. What I would like to encourage people to think through is, what are the goals you want based on where you are currently and what are the aspirations you have for your career? There might be a goal that is too much to accomplish in a short period of time of the MBA program. I think some thought and some conversations with a coach help this process greatly. Is the short-term goal really the short–term goal, or might that be an intermediate goal where you should think about an interim step to get you to that goal? That’s one way to think about it.

One thing that I caution people against is to think about stating goals that they think will sit well with the admissions committee. So for example, I had a conversation not too long ago with a candidate who was working in a tech startup space, and they were thinking about business school and said, “I think I should say that I’m interested in consulting since many more people go into consulting.” I said, “Okay, let’s talk about that a little bit” because I understand that for a lot of MBA programs, consulting is going to be one of the top sectors that students go into, but it’s not the only one. It’s better for the applicant to think about how they should connect the dots between what they’re doing and what they want to do, while conveying an openness to opportunities that might arise once they get to school. Nothing that a candidate writes in their essays is set in stone by the school. No one from the career office pulls that out and says, “But you said this.”

If schools aren’t going to hold you to your goals, why are they so interested in them? [18:44][Kelly Wilson] That’s a really good question. This was my philosophy the whole time as I was looking at applications. I wanted to see that somebody did the work to think through a plausible path of what makes sense and what they can accomplish at the school they’re applying to. I remember working in admissions and being at an event with prospective students and having a panel of alums. It would happen more often than not that the alumni would say, “Well, don’t tell admissions, but that’s not really what I wanted to do”, or “I didn’t know that that’s what I wanted to do.” Our expectation isn’t that you have to know. It’s that the plan you lay out makes sense.

Because if you lay out a sensible plan now, you can do it in the future if your interests change. [20:09]____________________________________________

Our next guest is Natalie Grinblatt Epstein. Before joining Accepted way back in 2008, Natalie was Admissions Dean and Director for three top MBA programs. Her clients have been accepted to U.S. M7 MBA programs and admitted to elite programs around the world.

My question for Natalie is: What would you advise applicants to do if they were rejected from Round 1 applications and they’re debating about what they should do with Round 2 applications? [20:45][Natalie Grinblatt Epstein] That’s a great question because every year, I run into this situation, where maybe students went alone in Round 1 and didn’t use any kind of counseling or coaching and then they come to me and want to know what they should do.

The first thing that we’ll do is gather some data. We want to assess the application. What went well? What didn’t go well? What are some holes or things that you can improve between Round 1 and Round 2? Maybe it’s updating your resume. Maybe it’s being more clear about goals. Maybe it’s answering the prompt more clearly. Maybe it’s connecting with the school and showing that you share your values. There is the possibility that it might just be numbers, in which case, we might advise you to retake a test or to offer to take a class. That’s hard to do in a month but if you enroll in a class, you can discuss that with the admissions committee in an optional essay.

The second thing we do after the assessment and figuring out what we can do between now and January is try to figure out how to highlight the strengths and mitigate the weaknesses. That’s how we will approach the application. Of course, we want to cast the net a little bit more widely. Are there schools out there that would still allow this candidate to achieve their goals without there being another issue? If you’re only looking at rankings, you might not be finding the school that’s best suited for you. We’re going to cast the net a little bit more widely and discuss those schools. We’ll do the same sort of research that we would do with Round 1. We’d want that person to get in touch with people at the school, students, alumni, and staff. We’d want them to visit either virtually or in person so they get a sense of what the schools are like.

____________________________________________

Our next guest is Vanessa Febo, who joined Accepted about a year ago. Vanessa has been teaching writing at UCLA for the last 10 years and has guided applicants to acceptance of top schools like Harvard, Stanford, UCLA, and USC, as well as to leading scholarships, including the Fulbright, Ford Foundation, Knight, Hennessy, Marshall, and Truman.

The question for Vanessa is: What is something that is often missing from the first draft of an applicant’s statement of purpose? [24:14][Vanessa Febo] Great question. Something that is often missing from the first draft of an applicant statement of purpose is the very basic, who, what, when, where, and why type of information. This is something that I see time and time again, working with clients. They spend a lot of time trying to articulate their deep reasons for wanting to join the program, which is absolutely necessary. They spend time talking about their research experiences, which is absolutely necessary. But in the process, they might forget to mention what school they went to or what their project was about?

I recently met with a client who was working on an engineering project and he didn’t state the problem they were trying to solve or even the purpose of doing this work. It’s kind of funny because in a lot of the first round edits, I’m asking questions like, “When was this?” or “ What company was this with?” It’s oftentimes not the deep, philosophical questions but more the timeline for your work.

Why are you going to put yourself through more schooling? Why do you want to be there? What do you plan to do while you’re there? One thing that I almost never see right off the bat on an application, on the statement of purpose is the purpose. What do you want to do with your degree when you are done? That is an obvious surprise too, how many times clients haven’t really thought about that.

I always talk about a statement of purpose being a very forward looking document while a personal statement is a little bit more backward looking. In a statement of purpose, you will talk about your past experiences, but they really want to know what you are going to do in the program and what are you going to do afterwards. It can actually be really difficult to figure out. Oftentimes, we know we want to do something, but we’re not exactly sure how to explain it. Or sometimes the reason might be that you like the location of the school, which is a legitimate reason, but it shouldn’t be your only reason.

So I guess the bottom line is don’t forget who, what, where, when, and of course, the why regarding your purpose.____________________________________________

I’d like to welcome Alice Diamond to our episode today. Alice was the Associate Dean for Career and Community Service at Lesley University in Cambridge, Massachusetts. She has 35 years of experience in career and admissions advising for undergraduate and graduate students. She joined Accepted in 2021.

Alice, the question for you is: How important are extracurricular activities in a graduate school application? [28:55][Alice Diamond] The answer is extracurricular activities can be really important, but it depends on a couple of things. The first is how much of a connection you can make between the activities that you have and the field that you want to enter. Did your activities actually have an impact on your decision to go into this career field? Let me give an example. You’re applying to grad school in clinical social work or marriage and family counseling, and you want to be a therapist. You were a Resident Assistant in your residence hall as an undergraduate. That experience can be extremely relevant if you think about the skills that you developed. You mediated conflicts between roommates, you created a living learning environment in your residence halls, I’m sure you had to develop crisis management skills, and you were a peer leader. If you can articulate those experiences and how they relate to the counseling field, it’ll be tremendously helpful.

Another example is you’re going to go into the healthcare professions, for example, occupational therapy or speech and language pathology. One of your experiences was volunteering over a period of time at a shelter for people in need. Whenever you’ve interacted with diverse populations, and especially those that are underserved, especially dealing with people who have been facing challenges like housing, finances, social and emotional challenges, it gives you the kind of experience that’s really relevant to working in a healthcare setting. It’s great to mention that in your application.

Often people are members of an athletic team and those experiences of being part of a team, collaborating together, and facing challenges are great talking points. Sometimes an athletic team member will have a direct experience like interacting with the team trainer that impacts their decision to go into a field like physical therapy. That’s really helpful to mention.

I’ll mention a couple caveats. One is that it’s depth, not breadth that matters with activities. A long list of things that you did one time, while they’re wonderful, are not going to have an impact on your application. It’s the ongoing activities where you really learned, contributed, changed. Most importantly, you can reflect on the experience because where extracurricular activities matter is when you learn and grow. It’s great that you worked at a soup kitchen, but more important is the reflection that you had about what you learned about hunger and homelessness from that experience. I encourage you to think about the activities that made a difference to you and describe them often. The grad school essays will be really helpful places to bring this in.

I also want to mention that, in higher education, we’re actually going from the word extracurricular to the word co-curricular because of the idea is that it’s really not “extra.” Let’s say you’re applying to grad school in political science and you had a leadership role in student government, that experience could be essential and also a really good complement to your academic experiences in the classroom. We use the word co-curricular now to give the sense of how important it is to your personal and professional development inside and outside of the classroom.

Excellent points all around. That’s a wonderful answer.____________________________________________

Our next guest is Dr. Herman Gordon a.k.a. Flash who is the past Chair of Admissions at the University of Arizona College of Medicine. He has an A.B. degree from Harvard College and a Ph.D. from Caltech. Since 2014, he has helped Accepted’s clients gain acceptance to medical schools and Ph.D. programs in the sciences.

The question for you is: How can applicants avoid triggering negative stereotypes and implicit bias when applying? [33:27][Herman Gordon] Let me take a step back and talk a little bit about what happens in the committee room when the client’s application comes in. I’ve served on national grant review panels as well as on an admissions committee, and it’s similar dynamics in both. Everybody wants to find good people and develop them and help nurture them. There’s a real positive aspect to it, but there’s also the need to select in both grants and med school applications. The acceptance rate can be less than 10%. It’s pretty brutal.

There’s an aspect of admissions, which is weeding people out. In medical admissions, that gets weeded out at several steps. The first step is the invitation for an interview and then the next key step happens when the application goes forward to the whole committee and then gets reviewed there. In all those steps of the way, there’s the opportunity for bias and stereotypes, and I think an important concept as part of this is red flags. What tends to happen, at least at the end of the line, when it gets to the committee, is that if somebody doesn’t want the application to move forward, they can pick up a red flag and say, “We can’t accept it because of this,” and then the application is tubed. A serious red flag would be a couple of DUIs, but there are much more subtle ones.

Part of what I do with applicants is bring that perspective that anything that could be picked up as a red flag. I help notice those things and present or phrase them differently. The other aspect is that there are just certain biases that different people have. Not all reviewers have them but some definitely do. Twenty years ago, we talked about racial biases. Today, it’s much more subtle.

Let’s take engineering students as an example. I personally have loved teaching engineering students in med school. They have really good problem solving minds, and I think it’s something that should be mined for med school. But I have seen this both in working on committees, as well as working with applicants who have engineering backgrounds, that they just have a harder time with it. I think that’s because there’s this stereotype that engineers are nerds; they’re bad with people, and they’re not going to be good doctors. It’s just not true. You can think it, but it doesn’t mean that it’s true. It’s wrong to apply it to everybody and to rule people out for that kind of reason. Being aware of those kinds of biases is important so you can create an application that defends against those biases.

How would you advise an engineering client to fight the stereotype? [37:04][Herman Gordon] It’s very important that they present their people skills. Those could be on the job, in collaborations, in small groups, and hopefully, it’s in their community service efforts and in their clinical pre-medical training. They’ll want to demonstrate that they can work effectively with people and that it’s a driver for them. This will break the stereotype and allow the application to go through and be really processed on its merits instead.

____________________________________________

Our next guest is Esmeralda Cardenal, former Associate Director of Admissions at Yale School of Management, Director of MBA Admissions at MSU Broad and consultant at Cardiff Business School in the UK. Since 2014, Esmeralda has guided Accepted clients to acceptance in various graduate programs, including MBA, masters in finance, business analytics, data science, sustainability, and public policy.

Esmeralda, the question for you is: What are the most underrated parts of the applications by applicants? How should they be viewed and treated instead? [38:21][Esmeralda Cardenal] In my twenty years of working in admissions, I would say that the most underrated and perhaps forgotten part of the application is the application boxes or the short answer questions. These questions are not on the website but are on the portal once you go in and create your account. They’re usually the ones that people tend to forget and leave to the last minute.

What happens is that people usually spend a lot of time on their essays and resume which is wonderful. Then, at the 11th hour, when they’re submitting everything, they find out that there are all these required short answer questions with very tight character limits. The problem with this is twofold.

One is that usually at this time there is not much time left. They’re rushing something that should not be rushed. A lot of times, this is what the admissions committee sees first. You don’t want to rush anything, but especially these questions.

The other problem is a lot of these questions ask about elements of work experience or extracurricular leadership that many times have already been touched on in the essays. The problem arises when applicants begin repeating things they already said in the essays.

I tell all of my clients as soon as they know that they are interested in a school, to go in and create their account so they know exactly what that school asks. Get all those short answer questions and put them in a Google Doc and treat them as you would treat an essay. Answer them carefully and make sure that you are answering within the character limit.

These questions have a very tight and strict character limit. When they say about 300 characters, we’re not talking about 300 words. Once I had a client who thought they were writing 500 words. It was 500 characters, which is very different. That’s about 100 words. You want to make sure that you are writing concisely and to the point and answering all these questions.

Another thing to remember as you’re putting together your resume, you don’t need job duties and responsibilities and what you do on a day to day basis because that is going to be asked in those short answers. There is a lot more that you can say in the application just make sure you don’t rush it.

____________________________________________

Our next guest is Jamie Wright, who has been on Admissions Straight Talk several times before. First, when she was Senior Recruitment and Admissions Manager at London Business School, Early Career Programs, and later after joining Accepted in 2017. Since then, she has helped clients gain acceptance to top programs in the United States and the EU, including London Business School, INSEAD, Oxford, Cambridge, Judge, Imperial, and others.

Here’s your question, Jamie: What’s the ideal candidate to business school? Can you give me a percentage chance that I can get in even if I don’t meet the ideal? [38:21][Jamie Wright] I think the quick and simple easy answer to both is, there’s not an ideal and no, I can’t give an exact number percentage of the chances of your application being successful.

In terms of the profile, I think that there still exists a rumor that in order to attend business school, you have to come from a certain background. I hear it all the time talking to clients. They say you need to have worked in finance or consulting. That’s not to say that they don’t add any value, but they’re not all of the profiles.

I don’t think that schools want a homogenous grouping of students, nor do I think that applicants want to be in a classroom filled with people who look and sound just like themselves and have the same background and experience. I know I don’t have to say it, but this range of experiences, be it academic or professional or extracurricular, results in a diversity of perspectives, discussions, and debate. It’s so interesting in the classroom.

That’s all to say that there might not be an exact profile that schools are looking for, but there are what I would consider common attributes. These are things like passion, leadership potential, commitment, and drive. There’s a lot of talk about EQ, IQ, and AQ skills. These are all the attributes that make not only successful students, but eventually, successful employees as well. I would say these are the more common qualities that schools are looking for, but there’s not a cookie cutter that applicants need to come from.

So if I was working on a not for profit, but I showed initiative, ingenuity, creativity, leadership, etc. I’d have a chance? [45:43][Jamie Wright] Absolutely. I think it’s interesting you say nonprofit. A lot of times that comes up as a non-traditional category. These students are making up a much bigger proportion of the classroom. Admissions committee members love to see an applicant coming from a different background. I used to love it when I would see people coming from different journeys because that’s what makes the classroom experience unique. I think most would agree that you learn as much from your peers as you do from faculty. Schools are very aware of that. They want to make sure that that peer-to-peer learning is happening and that you want to learn from these interesting people coming from different backgrounds.

And to answer the second question, what I would say is that, we can always give our recommendation as to whether we think a candidate stands a chance at a particular school. We can acknowledge they have a good profile or if there are some interesting things about their profile. But whether or not they’re admitted really depends on the whole application and not just what we see on that one page resume or CV. I don’t think that it’s possible to give that percentage without going deeper.

When I worked at London Business School and led the Early Careers admissions committee, I would reject candidates who looked good on paper, but I couldn’t understand their ambitions and couldn’t see any real motivation for their career or the program. We’d sometimes have to cut those people lose because the lack of interest and motivation at the application stage is usually a red flag and not a great indicator of what would happen once they came into the classroom. That’s all to say that the applicant’s journey and their story and their research and all of that does play a huge role in any decision. We need to be able to dig deeper into that before getting to any percentages and likelihood of being accepted.

I also say that at the end of the day, you’re going to be 100% in or 100% out.____________________________________________

I’d like to welcome now Dr. Christie St- John. Dr. St- John joined Accepted a few years ago after a distinguished career in international, MBA, and graduate admissions at both Vanderbilt and Dartmouth Tuck. She also served on the board of directors of the MBA Career Services Council and the Consortium for Graduate Studies in Management. That was in addition to her duties at Vanderbilt and Dartmouth Tuck.

The question for you is: What’s the value of attending school admissions events, whether virtual or in person? [49:51][Christie St-John] I think this is critically important because a lot of times when I’m talking with clients and I’ll ask them, “Why do you want to go to the school?” They’ll answer, “It’s ranked high.” That’s all they know about it. They don’t know whether the companies they want to work for recruit at that school. They don’t know the personality of the school or what the students are like. It’s so easy now to go to virtual events. Now that COVID seems to be laying low for a while, in-person events and MBA fairs all over the US and the world are taking place again. That’s an important place to go and meet the people who are on the admissions staff of the school. They usually bring alums with them and sometimes even current students. You can get a lot of information that you’ll never find on the website from those people.

If you visit in person, you get to look at the building. Where are the faculty located? If you need to go to career services, is it in a totally different building or is it going to be convenient to get to? Where are the faculty located? Are they all over different buildings in the campus? Are they in the same building that most of your classes are in? These are things that you’ll never find out on the website because they don’t get publicized.

Another thing that’s really important is finding out what sort of activities you can do there. One of the best ways is to go in person, but I know that’s not feasible for some people, especially if you’re international. But you get to sit in on a class and see the dynamics in the classroom. To remedy that for people who can’t get there, a lot of schools do online classes that you can sit in on. I’ve done that myself because I just find it really interesting.

One thing that people don’t know is that, schools have very sophisticated technology today that actually records when you come to visit. Anytime you click on their website to go see something, they know it. If you have never even bothered to go to the website or even go to a basic webinar, they know that. At the end of the day, if applications are piling in and they’ve got to choose between you and someone else and you’re both saying, “I’m really excited about your school,” they aren’t going to believe you if you haven’t been to a single event.

You should reach out to students, alums, and your admissions point person. This is something that I know a lot of international students I’ve worked with are afraid to do because it’s not what they do in their country. But here, it is not only encouraged, it’s really expected of you.

Are there risks in messing up when you’re at these events? [54:04][Christie St-John] Yes. If you are unkind or rude to students or staff members, they’ll make a note of that. We had one of our receptionists report back to us. If you are very arrogant or standoffish, if you go to lunch with students and are disengaged, these things are noted. Schools don’t want to invite someone who isn’t open to learning who they are and finding out more about the school. If you don’t seem to be interested in the school and you’re sitting on your phone the whole time, they’ll notice. So mind your manners.

Overall, I think it’s really one of the things that is most misused or not used at all by people. When you’re talking to people during the interview and they say, “What do you like about our school?” and you answer, “You’re highly ranked, and I like the city of New York,” that’s not enough. It’s like going up to a young woman and asking her for a date because she’s beautiful.

It is like dating. Definitely an analogous situation there.____________________________________________

Next I want to welcome Dr. Mary Mahoney, who, when she’s not helping Accepted clients get into medical school, healthcare-related programs, or English-related programs, is a tenured English professor and Director of Medical Humanities at Elmira College. She has advised applicants for over twenty years.

Here’s a question for you, Mary: How do I convey empathy effectively in a medical school personal statement, and later in interviews? [56:27][Mary Mahoney] So let’s tackle the writing first. When you’re writing the personal statement, in order to convey empathy, you probably want to tell a story that belongs to someone else. The story could be about a patient, it could be about an experience shadowing, it could be any kind of relevant experience that is associated with medicine. When telling the person’s story however, we want to make sure that we tell the story according to what it meant to them. We don’t want to compete with who gets to put meaning to this story. We want to demonstrate that we could actively listen well enough to understand the nuances of the experience for someone else. This demonstrates that you have the ability to pay attention, listen and glean what an experience means to someone else. Someone reading your essay is able to see that you have the ability to understand deeply the life that someone else is living.

But then you can add your perspective as well. As a medical professional, what could you possibly do to help them? Where do you see a problem that could possibly be rectified? Adding what this means or what could be done to help this person is not necessarily a bad way to conclude.

By listening and narrating someone else’s story, we actually grow in our ability to have compassion and recognize the significance of differences in the world. We have an obligation as someone in a leadership role to know how to intervene. That takes practice and it takes trial and error at times, but also the work of the team.

As far as relaying this in an interview, maybe it is a surprise, but the key message is that you listen and engage with someone. You engage in a conversation, which is an exchange between two people. You don’t override anyone speaking or interject, but acknowledge what someone is saying with responses like, “That was challenging.” Or you can share how you feel like, “Oh, that’s so sad.” Or you can show gratitude and say, “I appreciate that you shared that with me.” Or you show interest by asking, “And what happened after that?” Or you can show support and then that might sound like, “I’d like to help you out with that. What can I do to help with this?” Then you create this reciprocity in conversation that demonstrates that you’re really having a conversation, and this conversation means something.

That’s great advice, thank you so much again for joining me.____________________________________________

I’d like to now welcome Michelle Stockman, professional journalist, former Columbia Business School admissions insider, and experienced MBA admissions consultant. She joined Accepted in 2007 so when I say she’s well experienced, I’m not kidding. It’s been fifteen years; is that hard to believe? [1:02:28]

[Michelle Stockman] It’s hard to believe. It’s gone by so fast. I have really enjoyed all the clients that I’ve gotten to know through the years, and it’s really been a fun journey both personally and for my clients.

Certainly one of the perks of this work is getting to know our clients and helping them.The question for you is: What aspect of the application usually requires the most work? [1:02:59][Michelle Stockman] Nearly everyone who comes to me as a client is an incredibly exceptional individual, otherwise they wouldn’t be thinking about doing an MBA. In terms of their transcripts, resumes, and job qualifications, everything is top notch. It’s up to refining a story. Where we spend a lot of time, is thinking through future goals. I think that a lot of applicants come and have a general idea of what they want to do. They know they want to do something different in terms of the future, whether they’ve gone as far as they can go in the position that they’re working in and the industry they’re working in, and they need that MBA to gain the skill set to move up within the company or the industry, or they want to switch industries.

These are all absolutely valid and good reasons to want to do an MBA, but if you come with just that and put that in your application, that is not specific enough, and that’s not really compelling because that is what everyone wants to do when it comes to deciding to pursue an MBA. What makes the difference is people who have really thought that through.

When you walk off the stage with your diploma in hand, what would be your dream job? Does that job exist? What can you find out about that job? Can you network around people who are working in those companies or who might know what is entailed? What skill sets are people in that job valued for? What do you have now that you can bring right away? What will you gain within the MBA program that will make you a strong candidate for that?

We have just been through some pretty intense worldwide events, in terms of the pandemic and energy crisis. You need to show you’re flexible. It’s good to have a couple of companies where you could see yourself working or a little hint of a plan B in case that first plan A doesn’t work for some reason. If you’re an international person, you can show that you want to work in North America or Europe if that’s your target, but you’re also willing to look somewhere else if that’s where the company needs you. That is one thing that we work on together first.

The long-term goal is also something that you need to put some thought into. It needs to be something that is inspiring and that answers a big question of life. How are you able to capture the attention of whoever’s reading your application with this big idea that you want to solve? That is something that’s going to make whoever’s reading your application sit up from wherever they are, look at their stack of applications that they might be ho-hum about, and read this one and say, “Yes, this is in the yes pile. I’m going to fight for this person because I like their idea. I think it’s exciting. I think I learned something new when I read their application because they gave me some context and some background that I didn’t know. I think they’ve got the skill set and the personality to be a leader in that aspect of the field or industry they’re in.”

When I work with applicants, I find we spend a lot of time talking about these things. I challenge them to really brainstorm and think it through because it’s hard. It hasn’t happened yet. It’s something that takes a little bit more thought and effort but when it’s done well, it can be really exciting to read. That is the goal.

That was a fantastic question and answer. I really want to thank you for joining me for number 500. [1:07:23][Michelle Stockman] Well, congratulations to you, Linda. It’s always a pleasure and you’re an incredible business woman and entrepreneur. Much respect.

Thank you so much.At this point, I want to thank all of the consultants who participated in this very special episode. I really appreciate your contributions, your time, your thoughts, and of course your expertise.

Listener, I want to thank you for joining me for our 500th episode. There would be no 500 if you and others had not listened for the last 499 episodes. Thank you for your support. I’m rather proud of this milestone, and I want to give credit where credit is due: It goes to the fantastic guests we’ve had for the last over 10 years and to listeners who’ve consistently listened week in and week out.

Related links:

• Fitting In and Standing out, a free guide
• How to Write a Goal Statement for Graduate School
• B-school Selectivity Index
• Med School Selectivity Index
• Accepted Resource Library
• Accepted’s Admissions Consulting Services

Related shows:

• How to Write a Great Statement of Purpose
• When Should I Plan to Apply to Grad School? NOW!!!
• Applying to U.S. Business Schools from Europe, Asia, the Middle East
• An Insider’s Look at MBA Admissions

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The post The Questions You SHOULD Be Asking – ANSWERED! [Episode 500] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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Find out the latest admissions news and what it all means [Show Summary]USN Rankings, LSAT, and Laid-off Workers: In this bonus episode, Linda Abraham, Accepted founder and CEO, talks about the latest admissions news and what impact this can have on applicants.

Full show notes coming soon…

Related links:

• MBA Programs Seek Recently Laid Off Tech Workers
• U.S. News & World Report Sees High Drop Out Rate Among Elite Law Schools
• ABA Drops LSAT Requirement Beginning in 2025
• Accepted’s Admissions Consulting Services

Related shows:

• When Should I Plan to Apply to Grad School? NOW!!!
• How to Get Accepted to MIT Sloan MBA
• How to Get Into Georgetown Law
• Active Learn and Admissions at UVM’s Larner College of Medicine

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Discover the differences between and how to get accepted to common healthcare admissions tracks [Show Summary]Accepted consultant Dr. Valerie Wherley has an impressive and extensive background in pre-health, having advised thousands of students to acceptance at their dream schools and programs. In this highly informative podcast interview, she distinguishes the differences between common healthcare admissions tracks and shares how to craft a compelling application for each one.

Interview with Dr. Valerie Wherley, Accepted admissions consultant and former post-bac program director & pre-health advisor [Show Notes]Welcome to the 499th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for tuning in. We have lots of resources, articles, guides, and podcast episodes that can help you get accepted to the graduate healthcare programs of your choice. Go to accepted.com/healthcare to explore the library of free resources there.

Today is all about healthcare, and our guest is Dr. Valerie Wherley, an Accepted consultant. Dr. Wherley earned her BS and MS at the University of Maine in Kinesiology and her Ph.D. in Higher Education/Higher Education Administration from the University of Connecticut. Over the last 20 years, she has served as the Assistant Dean of Student Affairs and Career Development at William Beaumont School of Medicine, Director of the Pre-Health Post-bac Certification program at Sacred Heart University, and the Director of Pre-health Advisement Sacred Heart University.

In those roles, and before joining Accepted earlier this year, she advised thousands of students in the following pre-health tracks: pre-med, pre-PA, pre-vet, pre-dental, pre-pharmacy, pre-PT, pre-OT, pre-accelerated nursing, and pre-optometry as well as applicants to master’s programs in Exercise Science, Biomedical Sciences, Occupational Therapy, Speech-Language Pathology, Athletic Training, Public Health, and Applied Nutrition.

Let’s tap into that amazingly broad and notable experience.

What should all applicants in healthcare fields have if they want to apply successfully? What are the common requirements? [2:27]Great question. As you said, I have worked with a variety of pre-health fields during the time I worked at Sacred Heart and at the Beaumont School of Medicine. The commonality that students need to have in their academics is a demonstration of mastery of those prerequisite courses. They need a very strong academic transcript and whatever those prerequisite courses are for their intended path. Typically, that’s the sciences. A lot of those pre-health tracks have common courses such as biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, and anatomy, with some nuances depending on the track. There’s just no way around saying you have to demonstrate competency and mastery of those foundational concepts on your academic transcript. You have to be strong there.

From an experience perspective, my suggestion is to demonstrate that you have exposure to your intended career path. Exposure comes from observing, shadowing, and interviewing the people who are doing the work you want to be doing in the future. It’s not enough if you have a family member who has said to you, “You’ll make a great dentist one day,” that’s lovely. However, you have to have been in the trenches seeing the work and still know that it is your calling. You can demonstrate that in your personal statement and in your interview when you are applying to graduate school.

Is shadowing enough? [4:31]Shadowing is the first place to start. When I worked with undergraduate students, I always said shadowing is step one to really see if this is the place where you want to be. Shadowing is a great place to understand what you do and what you don’t like. I would have pre-PT students, for example, who would shadow a physical therapist for a few weeks and walk away from that experience and say, “That’s absolutely what I could see myself doing,” or just as importantly, “I cannot see myself doing that. It’s not the scope of practice that I thought it was.” That’s the importance of shadowing.

Then we move into more in-depth experiences such as a semester-long internship or externship or some of those paid clinical experiences that are critically important to particular pre-health paths. It might not be direct patient care, but it still qualifies as healthcare experience.

What should DO applicants do differently or have that isn’t necessary for MD applicants? [6:05]MD and DO applicants should prepare somewhat similarly in terms of academics and core experiential things such as clinical experiences, but DO applicants need to understand some of the basic principles of practicing in a DO way and what the DO education offers.

The DO education usually offers about 200 hours of this piece called osteopathic manipulative treatment, which is not offered in a traditional MD curriculum. In a DO interview, applicants may be asked the question, “Do you know what this is? Are you prepared for this piece of your education? What does this mean to you? Are you prepared to put this into practice in your DO career?” DO applicants certainly want to be aware of what that piece of their curriculum looks like.

Also, they should know what the DO philosophy is. The DO practicing philosophy takes into account a holistic view of the human and patient and also really talks to patient care with a prevention point of view that MDs may or may not encompass.

The other thing that seems to be a critical component is having a letter of recommendation from a DO as part of your overall application package. You’re going to secure one of those letters if you’ve done some shadowing, had an internship, or if you have a long-term working relationship with a DO who can write you a really strong letter of support.

Physician assistant programs are becoming increasingly competitive. What are those programs looking for that’s different from MD and DO programs? [8:03]A physician assistant usually has some nuances in terms of their prerequisites that are different. My pre-PA students are usually always required to take A&P I and II. More PA schools are requiring students to take medical terminology. There are some nuances in those prerequisites. PA schools are expecting students to walk in the door with some acquired clinical skills, and that is because the PA curriculum is short. Once PA students start school it is very fast-paced. The learning environment moves quickly and they’re in those clinical settings fast.

PA students are expected to come in the door with some foundational clinical skills. Those are required by what’s considered direct patient contact hours. To be a competitive candidate, most PA schools are requiring documented direct patient contact hours. The requirement will vary by school, some require 250 and some require 2,000. You’re going to be a competitive applicant if you have documented direct patient contact hours and you will acquire those by having some kind of license or certification, such as an EMT, an MA, or a CNA. That takes time. It’s a real exercise in time management and organization to balance school and getting these patient contact hours done.

Do you think a gap year might be advisable for many PA applicants? [9:47]A lot of the applicants that I worked with at my university did take a gap year in order to finish and acquire enough of those patient contact hours in order to be competitive. I think a critical mistake is applying to PA school before a student is ready or when they’re just meeting those minimum required hours that are posted on a school’s website. My recommendation is always to look at that minimum number of required hours and try to double it. That’s the point when you are really getting into the competitive area.

What’s different about how dental applicants should prepare in comparison to MD or PA applicants? [10:33]Dental school applicants will take their admission exam known as the DAT, which is different than the MCAT and the GRE.

I should have mentioned that for PA students, they’re developing a new standardized test out there called the PA-CAT which is coming down the pike now. There are 11 schools out there requiring the PA-CAT. There are other schools out there that are calling it optional. I think we are going to see more and more schools adopting the PA-CAT in the future.

My pre-dental students are preparing for the DAT exam that can be taken at the end of their junior year after most of the prerequisites are done, particularly organic chemistry. Dental experience is of utmost importance. You’ll want to have some experience working as a dental tech and certainly in a dental office where you’re shadowing a dentist. Dental specialties are really good experiences as well like shadowing an orthodontist or somebody who works with an older population doing denture work.

Another suggestion is to join a pre-dental club on campus. If you are a traditional undergraduate student, it would offer you some volunteer experiences in the community like teaching an elementary school about oral hygiene and how to floss and brush. That looks wonderful on an application.

What’s really critically important to my pre-dental students is this thing known as manual dexterity. When you think about being a dentist and working in patients’ mouths, that’s a very tiny space, and you have to be able to demonstrate that in some fashion, you have worked on your manual dexterity skills prior to going to dental school. Students get really creative when they demonstrate this. They talk about their ability to knit or crochet or do woodworking or paint or draw or play a musical instrument. Anything like that speaking to your manual dexterity skills looks great on your application.

How should physical therapy applicants prepare? [13:02]To be a competitive physical therapy candidate, you need to show observation and shadowing in a variety of physical therapy clinics and outpatient and inpatient settings and have your hours documented. Most physical therapy schools have some type of log to submit at the time of application where your hours will be verified by your supervising physical therapist. Whether you have shadowed or observed for five hours or 100 hours, you will have a physical therapist who will vouch for you not only by signing that log but hopefully by also submitting a letter of recommendation. It really is about observing physical therapists who have a wide scope of practice in a variety of disciplines like a pediatric physical therapist, a geriatric physical therapist, and a physical therapist who works with traumatic brain injuries. The more the better. When you go in for those interviews, you can speak to the variety of PT practice that is out there beyond what we typically think of as just sport-related PT.

How does an application to veterinarian school differ from the other applications? [14:55]My pre-vet students hold a special place in my heart because my dad is a large animal veterinarian. He graduated from Cornell University and has been practicing for as long as I can remember.

In order to be a competitive veterinary medicine student or applicant, it is about having strong prerequisites. More and more vet schools are shying away from requiring the GRE. For students out there who say, “I am not a good standardized test taker,” that is good news for them.

Demonstration of a variety of shadowing and clinical experiences is of utmost importance. When I talk to my pre-vet students, I talk about getting exposure in four different categories of animal experience: small animal, large animal, aquatic animal, and exotic animal. If you can demonstrate that you have had experience and exposure in those four domains, that will show a holistic portfolio on your application. It is hard to do, especially depending on where you live regionally. If you do not live near a zoo or an aquarium, it can be really challenging. If you’re a traditional undergraduate student, connecting with a faculty member who could connect you maybe with an internship that maybe would require some summer travel would be of utmost importance.

If it’s absolutely impossible for you to get experience in one of those four categories, then my second tier is that school choice becomes critically important. When you’re applying to vet school, match the experience on your resume with what those vet schools have to offer in terms of what their specialty areas are. What do their faculty specialize in? What are their clinical experiences? That school choice should really match. There are schools out there that have great exotic animal programs. If you have a lot of exotic animal experience, that should be a really good match. You can talk about that in your personal statement. If you have no exotic animal experience, that school might not be the best choice or fit for you.

What recommendations do you have for applicants interested in a Master’s of Public Health? [18:32]I’m finding a lot of students are interested in a Master’s of Public Health for a variety of reasons. I think being interested in the general population or public policy or simply what’s going on in our communities is sparking an interest in this particular program. It’s also a really interesting choice for students during a gap year. I’m finding some pre-med students or some pre-PA students acquiring an MPH during their gap year, not only for their own personal interest but also to become more competitive applicants.

However you’re doing this, or whatever your motivation, to become a competitive applicant, there are two avenues you should really think about. First of all, most MPH programs out there are going to ask you to write a statement of purpose. What is your driving motivation to get this Master’s of Public Health? A statement of purpose should really tell an admissions committee why they should give you a seat in the program. It should be really well-written.

The second piece is thinking about what concentration or track you might be interested in within the MPH program. Public health is so big and there are so many opportunities. If you look at a particular public health program, they will typically offer between five to eight concentration areas, which is where you hang your hat. Some examples of those might be a focus on health promotion, environmental health, occupational health and wellness, epidemiology, biostatistics or public policy, just to name a few. So really research an area or a track that you think could meet your career objective or goal so that you could write about it and say to an admissions committee, “I’m really interested in public policy and here is why.” Those two writing pieces will help make your application rise to the top.

Who should do a formal post-bac program and who can do an informal one? [22:19]I had the pleasure of being the Director of the Pre-Health Postbac Certificate Program at Sacred Heart University and worked with some wonderful students through that program, not the least of which were military veterans coming back and going back to school. They were a wonderful group of post-bac students. In my post-bac program, I had two general categories of students: students that I would call career changers and students I would call academic enhancers.

Students who are career changers coming to a post-bac program are students who did not study anything scientifically related as an undergrad and have decided to completely change their career for one reason or another. Maybe they feel a calling to medicine and now need to get all of their prerequisites done in order to move on to the next phase of their new career. These students need to do a complete and formal post-bac program, from biology to organic chemistry and beyond. My program was two years long, and students also acquired clinical experiences and research experiences along the way. At the end of our post-bac program, they would get a certificate of completion and a fully vetted academic transcript, which looks really nice on a graduate school application.

Students who are academic enhancers may have completed a science-related undergraduate program but did not perform to the best of their ability the first time around and need to come into a post-bac program to take a second crack at some of these courses. Now, students could take a few courses if they just needed to retake a few specific ones. Or they can redo the entire complement of classes which shows programs, “I’m a new student now with these new skills. Watch me now.”

How can applicants in healthcare programs differentiate themselves in an authentic way? [25:31]Great question. I’ve thought of a few ways that students can differentiate themselves to ensure that they are not looking like everybody else.

My first answer is to show longitudinal commitment. If you are an applicant who is doing community service for a day and doing research for a week and doing a leadership role for a month, doing a lot of very short-term items will look like you are checking a box. The students who have longitudinal commitment really stand out. You get to choose what and where that looks like. It could be to your church or your synagogue or volunteer experience at a soup kitchen. Notice I’m not mentioning clinical work here, I’m talking about longitudinal commitment. It can be Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts, but it has to be long-term. That really differentiates you as an applicant because it shows commitment, resolve, and resilience. It shows all of these really wonderful qualities about who you are.

The second thing is a diversity of interests. Applicants to any of these pre-health programs will have to take science classes. On some level, you must be interested in science, patient care, and helping people. That’s pretty common. A diversity of interest is really wonderful to read about from an admissions committee perspective. If you play the trumpet, surf, knit, write poetry, or anything else, that’s very wonderful to read about because that shows that you have interests outside of patient care and you have the ability to have a work-life balance. It shows you can potentially talk to patients about something else besides their ailments and that you can connect with patients in the future on a real human level. Showing your diversity of interests is another way to stand out.

And the third thing I would say is leadership. In whatever way you can manifest leadership, talk about how it has changed you and what skills you have cultivated as a result of that leadership. Don’t just tell it like a resume item. Really show it and talk about it.

What are some common mistakes that applicants make that you’ve seen over the years? [29:10]I caution applicants against predetermining their specialty at the time of application. I think it’s okay for students to talk about what they may be interested in. If you are an applicant who has shadowed a lot of surgeries and you think you might want to go into a surgical specialty, that is okay. But I do not think an application should be so forward-facing as to be predetermined and locked into a specialty area. When I was working at the medical school, I certainly saw students’ thoughts on specialty areas change from the beginning of year three, which is the start of clinical rotations, to the end of year three, which is the end of clinical rotations because a light bulb moment happened and a student went from surgery to OB/GYN and then declared OB/GYN at the end of year three.

More importantly, admissions committees, regardless of your pre-health track, want to know that if you are getting a seat in their program, you are coming in with an open mind. When you go into clinical rotations, whether it’s inpatient or outpatient or psych or dermatology, you’ll be there with an open mind and open heart and willing to listen and hear and absorb every single piece of information. It shows that you’re not so closed off, that you are only concerned about one specialty area because you’re locked in.

Another common mistake is applying before somebody is truly their most competitive self. That’s the kindest way to say it. Don’t apply before you’re really ready academically, from a clinical perspective, with the strongest letters of recommendation, and with the strongest test scores. I know applicants are eager to get into the application cycle. That’s a very exciting time in your academic career but you also want to put together your most competitive application. If it means waiting a year, that is in everybody’s best interest.

The third thing I would say is applicants not being selective, discerning, or data-driven about school choice and school fit. I do think that time and thoughtful intention about where you are applying, why you are applying, doing some research on the mission statement of a school, the faculty that are at that school, and what that school stands for is a really important process. How does the school fit with you as an applicant, your background, what you’ve done, and what you hope to do in the future? I think that really matters. Some applicants will cast a very wide net and just sort of think, “I’ll go wherever somebody gets me a seat.” You really want to be happy at the school where you are and fit with a peer group and a community where you can do some really good in-depth learning. I think school choice and school fit are a big part of this puzzle.

What do you wish I would’ve asked you? [33:24]I think my final point is about mock interviews. In my opinion, mock interviews are so important.

Once you get your application in, and you’re in that application cycle, and you get the wonderful news that you have been invited for an interview, you should practice, practice, practice. A mock interview with a consultant, somebody who’s been doing this work for a while, is such a good use of time to prepare yourself in the most professional way.

It’s helpful not only to see how are you appearing on camera but to practice the different types of interview formats and types of questions that you could be asked, from general questions to pre-health specific questions to the more difficult questions like situational judgment questions to ethics-based questions. Those are really tough. Getting this practice also makes sure that you are phrasing your answers in the most professional way. I can’t recommend mock interviews highly enough.

Related links:

• Healthcare Admissions 101
• Dr. Valerie Wherley Bio
• Contact Dr Valerie Wherley for help with your application
• 10 Tips for Acceptance to a Physician Assistant (PA) Program
• Med School Mock Interviews
• Other Healthcare Mock interviews
• Accepted’s Med School Admissions Consulting Services

Related shows:

• How to Write Essays That Will Get You Into Medical School: An Expert’s Take
• How To Get Into Dental School
• How To Get Accepted To the University of Iowa’s PA Program
• Temple University’s Postbac Programs: A Plethora of Possibilities
• All About Duke’s Top-Ranked PA Program
• An Inside Look at USC’s Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry

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What international applicants to U.S. business schools need to know [Show Summary] Michelle Stockman has a Master’s in Journalism, 15 years of experience as an Accepted admissions consultant, and has lived all around the world. Bridging all of these experiences, Michelle gives her tips for international students applying to U.S. MBA programs. Interview with Michelle...

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Thanks for joining me for the 466th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. I am taking a week off for family time this week. As a result, I decided to air an encore of our most popular premed podcast so far in 2022. It is my interview with Dr. LeeAnna Muzquiz, UWSOM Associate Dean for Admissions.... 

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Wondering if Dental School is for you? [Show Summary] Dr. Barry Rothman shares everything students should know about the dental school application process drawing on his knowledge as an Accepted Admissions Consultant and former Health Professions Advisor and Director of SFSU’s Pre-Health Profession Certificate Program. Interview with Barry Rothman, Dental School admissions expert [Show Notes]... 

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Discover what opportunities the Wharton Lauder MBA program offers [Show Summary] Kara Keenan Sweeney, Director of Admissions Marketing and Financial Aid at the Lauder Institute at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School and Penn Law School shares how the program continues to offer global opportunities during a COVID influenced world. [Show Notes] Welcome to the... 

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A peek into what change the Forte Foundation is implementing [Show Summary] In honor of Admissions Straight Talk’s 10th anniversary episode, our first ever guest is back. Elissa Sangster is the CEO of the Forte Foundation which is at the forefront of increasing female representation in the business world – from the classroom to the...

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What is the U. of Iowa’s PA program all about [Show Summary] The role of Physician Assistant was introduced less than 60 years ago and the University of Iowa’s Physician Assistant Program has been at the forefront since day one. Tony Brenneman, the Program Director shares what the program offers and how applicants can gain... 

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All you need to know about UW’s Foster MBA program [Show Summary] Amber Janke, Director of MBA Recruitment and Admissions at Foster School of Business shares everything potential applicants should know about the collaborative MBA program. Amber Janke, Director of MBA Recruitment and Admissions at Foster School of Business talks about how to get accepted... 

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Join us for some insights into MIT’s Engineering Program [Show Summary] Syed Shayan Zahid moved to the United States from Pakistan to pursue an education in engineering. He shares his journey from an undergrad at Purdue to a master’s at MIT and his next step, a career at Apple. Interview with Syed Shayan Zahid, student...

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The post How This Student Got Accepted to MIT’s Engineering Program and Landed a Job at Apple [Episode 460] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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Interested in a spot in Georgetown University SOM? [Show Summary] Dr. Ellen Dugan, Georgetown Medical School’s Senior Associate Dean for Admissions and Financial Aid, describes how cura personalis, or care of the whole person, drives the Georgetown experience and curriculum. Interview with Dr. Ellen Dugan, Georgetown Medical School’s senior associate dean for admissions [Show Notes]...

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Find out what the Oxford Saïd MBA program has to offer [Show Summary] Hannah Griffiths, Oxford Saïd Business School’s MBA Recruitment and Admissions Manager, shares how the school aims to equip leaders to effect change in various sectors all over the world. Additionally, Hannah highlights what it takes to get accepted.  Interview with Hannah Griffiths,... 

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Hear what it takes to get accepted to USC Gould School of Law [Show Summary] USC Gould’s Associate Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid, David Kirschner, shares how students can get accepted to this top-ranked law school. Interview with David Kirschner, Associate Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid at USC Gould [Show Notes] Thanks for... 

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How to Get Accepted to the Perelman School of Medicine [Show Summary] Dr. Neha Vapiwala, Dean of Admissions for Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania, the first medical school in the United States, explores the values the school instills in its community while reflecting on the new wave of interest in medical...

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The post Deep Dive into Penn Perelman School of Medicine: An Interview with Dr. Neha Vapiwala, Dean for Admissions [Episode 455] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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The intersection of business and human rights led to the Oxford Said EMBA [Show Summary] Anthony Triolo is a champion of social justice with an impressive work history serving countries all over the globe. He’s currently earning his Executive MBA at Oxford Said and shares what led him to the program and how he intends...

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The post Why Is This Successful Leader Investing In an Oxford Said Executive MBA? [Episode 454] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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Applying to MD/PhD programs? Here’s what you need to know [Show Summary] Dr. Herman “Flash” Gordon, an Accepted consultant and former chair of the University of Arizona Tucson College of Medicine’s admissions committee, provides a deep dive into the application process for MD/PhD programs, highlighting crucial preparation tips.  Interview with Dr. Herman “Flash” Gordon [Show... 

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An overview of the UT McCombs MBA program and what you need to know to get accepted [Show Summary] Rodrigo Malta, UT Austin’s Director of Admissions highlights key factors that make the UT McCombs full time MBA program attractive to many. He discusses what students can expect from a virtual admissions process and gives tips... 

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All about the distinctive program at UWSOM and how to get accepted [Show Summary] Dr. LeeAnna Muzquiz, Associate Dean for Admissions at UWSOM gives an in-depth look at the top ranking program, highlighting adaptations that have been made as a result of the pandemic and outlining each step of the University of Washington’s admissions process. ... 

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I am swamped now with clients facing early January deadlines so I decided to end 2021 with one of our most popular shows of the year, my interview with Kaiser Permanente Bernard J. Tyson School of Medicine’s Senior Associate Dean for Admissions and Equity, Inclusion, and Diversity, Dr. Lindia Wllies-Jacobo. The Kaiser Permanente School has...

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The post Encore: How to Get into Kaiser Permanente Medical School – Warning It’s Tough! [Episode 450] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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It’s a busy time of year now. We here at Accepted are busy helping applicants with the end-of-the-year application crunch and enjoying the company of family. Perhaps adding to your happiness, you are planning a move to a new location after an acceptance. Or perhaps you’re not yet at that happy stage; you’re knee-deep in... 

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The post Encore: Are You Interested in NYU Stern? [Episode 449] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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An inside look at UCLA Law School and what you need to know to get in [Show Summary] Robert Schwartz, Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid at UCLA Law, shares an inside look at the unique opportunities the program offers students and important tips for those seeking to attend law school. Interview with Rob Schwartz,... 

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The post UCLA Law School: How to Get Accepted [Episode 448] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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Thinking of applying to NYU Stern’s Online MSQM program? [Show summary] Launched right before the pandemic, NYU Stern’s online MSQM program offers a unique blend of business management foundations, leadership and analytics to (mostly) young professionals. NYU Stern’s Vice Dean for online learning, Dr. Kim Corfman, joins us to share details about the program. Interview...

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The post What’s New at NYU Stern’s Online Masters of Science in Quantitative Management [Episode 447] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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Are less-than-stellar language skills preventing you from reaching your professional or academic or personal goals? [Show summary] Christina Ball, Fulbright scholar and founder of Speak! Language Center and B-Speak! brings her love of cultures and languages to this episode. She describes the approach her programs take to making language learning enjoyable and effective for those... 

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What to do if you have no interviews [Show summary] What do you do if you still haven’t heard back from medical schools by Thanksgiving? In this episode, podcast host Linda Abraham shares how students can pursue parallel tracks to expand their opportunities. Linda Abraham’s advice for med school applicants who still haven’t received interview... 

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The best way to approach your MBA application [Show summary] You have your GPA and test score but how should you approach the actual application? In this episode Linda Abraham, Admissions Straight Talk host, shares Accepted’s DARE framework to help you confidently apply to your dream schools.  The essential ingredients that adcoms look for in... 

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Are you thinking about taking a standardized test for undergraduate or graduate admissions? Read on for must-know test-prep information! [Show summary] We’re calling in test prep leaders and co-hosts of the Tests and the Rest podcast, Mike Bergin and Amy Seeley to discuss tips and strategies for choosing the right test prep for you as...

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The post Testing, Testing, 1-2-3: What’s the Right Test Prep For You? [Episode 443] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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Are you dreaming of a spot at Yale School of Management? [Show summary] Bruce DelMonico, Yale School of Management’s Assistant Dean of Admissions, returns and shares how the school has endured the pandemic and highlights updates in the admissions process.  What applicants need to know about this mission-driven, case-based MBA program [Show notes] Welcome to... 

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Get to know Rush Medical College [Show summary] Built on the tenets of community service and community engagement, Rush Medical College strives to graduate empathetic physicians. In this episode, Dr. Cynthia Boyd, Associate Dean for Admissions offers a closer look into the program. What makes Rush Medical College unique? A flipped-classroom model of learning and...

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What makes Wharton’s MBA program unique, and how to demonstrate to the adcom that YOU belong there [Show summary] Blair Mannix, Wharton’s Director of Admissions, shares the ways the admissions committee aims to reduce stress in the application process and offer a positive experience. She dispels myths about the Wharton admissions process and offers advice... 

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Get to know UVA Darden’s thoughtful application process [Show summary] Dawna Clarke, Senior Assistant Dean of Admissions at Darden School of Business explores the program’s unique case method and recounts how the school proactively adapted during COVID-19.  What makes UVA Darden unique? A choice-rich MBA experience and a close-knit student community [Show notes] Welcome to... 

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What makes Chicago Medical School unique, and how to wow its adcom with your application [Show summary] Dr. Michael Ellison, Associate Dean for Admissions at Chicago Medical School, describes how the school trains students from all backgrounds to be thoughtful and dynamic healthcare leaders. He shares his advice for students looking to pursue medical careers...

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The post How to Get Accepted to Chicago Medical School at Rosalind Franklin [Episode 438] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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What can you do before starting business school to set yourself up for a valuable MBA experience? [Show summary] Bob Manfreda discusses his experience in the Stanford GSB program and shares wisdom from his co-authored blog, MBA Coffee Chats, and book, Coffee Chats: Thoughtful advice on how to get the most out of your MBA.... 

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Welcome to the 436th episode of Admissions Straight Talk. Thanks for joining me. I’m actually taking a week off for family time this week. As a result, I decided to air an encore of one of our most popular shows of 2021 so far, and that show is, What Life at Icahn Is Like as... 

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The post Encore: What Life at Icahn Is Like as a Med Student, Parent, and More [Episode 436] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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Learn how to increase your chances of acceptance to medical school or another health professions school. [Show summary] Caleb Marsh, Admissions Director of Temple University’s CST many postbac programs explores the robust opportunities available to students preparing for medical educations and careers. How can Temple University’s postbac programs help you reach your career goals, and...

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Would you like to be a member of Team Fuqua? [Show summary] Shari Hubert, Associate Dean of Admissions at Duke’s Fuqua School of Business, describes its collaborative MBA program and gives insight into what Duke seeks in applicants. Duke Fuqua: Where decency meets diversity. [Show notes] You’re interested in Duke’s collaborative MBA program and intrigued...

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Is your accent in English holding you back professionally? [Show summary] Esther Bruhl is a speech pathologist and founder of Speak More Clearly, an accent reduction training program for non-native English speakers. In this episode she explains how accents are formed and how new ones can be learned. Increase your marketability or productivity, by reducing...

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Early patient exposure and the option to pursue research or an additional degree during the program’s third year, make Duke University Med School a unique choice for applicants [Show summary] Dr. Linton Yee, Associate Dean for Admissions at Duke University School of Medicine discusses the program’s integrative learning approach that offers students hands-on training from...

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Get to know NYU Stern’s top-notch MBA programs, and find out what Stern adcom looks for in applicants [Show summary] Lisa Rios, NYU Stern’s newly appointed Assistant Dean of MBA Admissions, describes NYU’s innovative MBA program and the COVID adaptations that have been made to elements of the program and its application process.  Interview with... 

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Are you smart, accomplished, aware and encouraging? Dartmouth Tuck may be the MBA program for you. [Show summary] Pat Harris and Amy Mitson, co-executive directors of the MBA Admissions and Financial Aid at Dartmouth Tuck, share all about the Tuck experience including its close-knit community, amazing alumni network, and unique location while offering guidance to...

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I am taking off for family time this week. As a result I decided to air an encore of our most popular med podcast so far in 2021, and it is: What Med School Applicants Must Know About Johns Hopkins, my interview with Paul White, Assistant Dean for Admissions at Johns Hopkins School of Medicine.... 

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College admissions tips from a Harvard graduate [Show summary] Julie Kim shares her journey from growing up as an immigrant daughter to obtaining a Master’s of Education from Harvard to now operating her own college consulting company. She shares her tips for getting into Harvard despite low test scores.  How following a passion for education... 

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Ace any standardized admissions test, with top-tier academic coaching and effective tools to manage anxiety [Show summary] Bara Sapir has been providing test prep for over 20 years and is a pioneer in mindful test taking, implementing a holistic approach to the test prep process. She shares her best tips along with her comprehensive approach... 

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Are you aiming for an MBA from CMU Tepper? Here’s how to make that dream a reality. [Show summary] Kelly Wilson, Executive Director of Masters Admissions at Carnegie Mellon University’s Tepper School of Business discusses Tepper’s MBA programs, which are focused on analytics, leadership and technology advancement.   With full-time, part-time and hybrid options, Tepper offers... 

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Want to learn more about Kaiser Permanente’s highly competitive tuition-free and lecture-free medical school program? [Show summary] Dr. Willies-Jacobo describes the foundational values that are woven into the culture at Kaiser Permanente School of Medicine which accepted its first class in the midst of the pandemic. She also shares the challenges and adaptations that have...

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All about the University of Illinois College of Medicine’s admissions process [Show summary] During this episode, Dr. Leila Amiri who is the University of Illinois College of Medicine’s Assistant Dean of Admissions and Recruitment, not only dissects the UI COM admissions process but also provides a wonderful and experienced perspective on the overall medical school...

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The post How To Get Accepted to University of Illinois College of Medicine [Episode 423] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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What factors should you consider when deciding how to prepare for the MCAT? [Show summary] Our guest today has been providing MCAT prep for just under 30 years and he’s going to share his best MCAT prep advice with you!  The Berkeley Review’s CEO, Todd Bennett, shares his best MCAT prep advice [Show notes] Our... 

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How to Respond to a Rejection [Show summary] Admissions guru Linda Abraham highlights four reasons that could cause a rejection and offers concrete, practical suggestions for moving forward.  How to Respond to a Rejection [Show notes] Some of you are unfortunately facing a fistful of dings at the moment. Some of you haven’t heard definitively.... 

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What every applicant to Georgetown McDonough should know [Show summary] Shelly Heinrich, Associate Dean of MBA Admissions at Georgetown McDonough, explores what’s new with the school’s full-time and flex MBA programs and how applicants can stand out to the admissions committee. Make your application to Georgetown McDonough shine! [Show notes] Interested in an MBA focused...

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Words of advice for premeds and medical school applicants [Show summary] Dr. Sunny Nakae discusses CUSM’s approach to training the next generation of great physicians and shares wisdom from her book, Premed Prep: Advice from a Medical School Admissions Dean. Are you curious about CUSM? Read on for info about this new program and for...

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How can an MBA degree help an entrepreneur? [Show summary] Entrepreneur and Harvard Business School grad Ben Faw reflects on the value of his MBA and the role it played in his successful career. Why this serial entrepreneur feels his time at HBS was invaluable [Show notes] What happens to Harvard Business School MBAs after...

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Achieving balance: A resident’s advice for succeeding in medical school without sacrificing your personal life [Show summary] Dr. Wendell Cole, a Morehouse graduate and orthopedic surgical resident at Tulane, shares the personal experiences and med school survival strategies that led him to write The Med School Survival Kit.

How planning and time management pave the way towards greater academic success and personal fulfillment [Show notes] Have you been accepted to medical school this cycle? Congratulations! Are you still hoping to be accepted this cycle? Are you planning ahead for next cycle? Today’s guest is going to discuss his path in med school, as well as how you can excel in medical school while enjoying the experience.

Dr. Wendell Cole graduated with a degree in biology and medical virology from Georgia State University in 2014. He attended Morehouse School of Medicine and graduated in 2018, at the age of 24. He has been an orthopedic surgical resident at Tulane University School of Medicine and will complete his residency in 2023. He published The Med School Survival Kit: How To Breeze Through Med School While Crushing Your Exams in 2018 as he graduated med school.

Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background? [2:03] I am a first generation son of immigrants. My mom and my father are both from the Caribbean. They immigrated here in the ’90s or ’80s and had me. I was born in New York, and I moved around a lot, and I ended up spending most of my time in Georgia. Marietta, Georgia is where I spent most of my time. Then Atlanta, Georgia is where I spent the majority of undergrad and med school. Most of my life has been in Georgia.

Growing up, nobody really did medicine before me. There weren’t any other doctors or anything else like that in the family. I liked sports a lot growing up, and I started playing sports in high school. I played football, and I ran track. Another thing that I started enjoying in high school was actually a TV show called House. They have a lot of different seasons, but it’s an intriguing show on medicine. That combination of the two piqued my interest in medicine. I always liked science stuff, and I always liked sports. I thought, well, what’s something I can do to combine the two? So I went through undergrad thinking I was going to do something sciency, but again, I watched House all the time, so I can say that heavily influenced me going towards the field of medicine, like sports. That brought me towards orthopedics. I kind of knew it was something I wanted to do.

I also injured myself and had to have surgery when I was in college as well, so it wasn’t just House. I had personal injuries. When I was in college, I actually tore my ACL just horsing around, not even doing a professional sport. The thing that took me with that is that beforehand, I expressed my emotions by working out. I wasn’t able to work out, so I felt a part of me was missing, I guess, for a lack of better terms. Long story short, I ended up getting an ACL reconstructed, being able to run again, do sports. That kind of birthed my interest and gave me that form of self-expression back. That’s one of the reasons why I wanted to do orthopedics.

What was the hardest part of the medical school application process for you? [4:42] It was trying to figure out where to apply to. I went to Georgia State University and for many years, I didn’t know that we had a pre-med program per se or pre-med committee that can help you choose places to go and apply to. For the most part, I was just doing it on my own, not having had anybody in my family that was in medicine or anything. A lot of it was Googling and searching for different places where to apply to, asking, where do I get my letters of recommendation? Who do I ask? What are they looking for? Those were the big things, trying to figure out where to apply to, and then how you put together a pre-med kit. Some schools have a pre-med society, and the person in charge of that makes your letters of recommendations. For me, I thought, well, maybe I could just ask a couple of my professors and go from there. That was probably one of the bigger hurdles that I had, figuring out how to get to med school.

How did you overcome it? Did you Google around? Did you ask your friends? [5:47] I Googled, and then actually, right in the city was Morehouse School Of Medicine. I knew that was there, so (I was very old fashioned in this way) I just drove up to the school and walked in and said, “I’m interested in going to med school. What can we do, or what are some steps that I need to take?” I remember now, one of the admissions guys, his name was Brandon Hunter, very nice guy. He let me go and sit in on classes as an undergrad to show my interest in med school, sit in on classes. I could speak to him, learn a little bit more about what medical school was like. I was real old school, and I drove and walked through the doors and said, “Hey, I want to go to med school. I go to school not too far from here. What do I need to do?” That, and then applying where family was, that was the other part to it.

What did you like and dislike about Morehouse Medical School? [6:38] I liked the fact that one of the missions is to help serve the underserved, which is something that I’m passionate about. Having come from a background of not having too much, I would like to give back to whatever our community needs. Learning to serve the underserved, number one, that’s a mission statement that I really agreed with, giving back towards the community. And in classes, you learn about things such as racial inequality or gender inequality. That was part of the curriculum. You learn how to talk to certain patients that may not have the access to healthcare or different systems that other patients may have access to. That was one of the things that I liked. I liked the fact that it was in a big city. You’re at a big trauma center. The hospital is called Grady Hospital. It’s right in downtown Atlanta. You get a great trauma experience, and you get to work with attendings from all over that are experts.

Things that I didn’t like: It’s expensive! That’s something that’s common for a lot of different medical schools. I didn’t really have any necessarily bad experiences per se with Morehouse School of Medicine. I would choose it again if I had to.

You mentioned that you chose orthopedic surgery because of your own experience, your interest in sports, your interest in medicine, and your experience with your ACL tear. Orthopedics is one of the most competitive residencies out there. How did you explore it after your ACL tear? [8:12] Coming into medical school, as a first year med student, I was telling people I want to do orthopedics. One of my friends said, “Hey, have you heard of this program called Nth Dimensions?” I said, “No, I’ve never heard of that. What is this program?” It’s a program headed by Dr. Bonnie Simpson Mason. The main overall goal is to try to help get minorities into the field of orthopedics. Not only racial minorities; women as well. They pair you up with a preceptor. For me, they sent us out to Los Angeles. You’re paired with a preceptor, you get to shadow a doctor, you get to have research done. It’s two months between your first and your second year. It’s called an internship. You go and shadow, you’re in the operating room, and then you do research as well. At the end of the two months, you have to present your research at a conference. That’s something to help you build your CV.

That was one of the main, big things that helped with my exposure to orthopedics and helped me solidify that’s what I wanted to do, and also helped with the application. Like you said, it’s a very competitive specialty to get into, so you have to get good scores. You need as much in your corner as you can. It also helped because of the network of people too. They had a network of alumni and a network of other students that were residents. They served as a source that I could help go to if I had any questions or needed advice, or when I had to figure out where I wanted to rotate as a third year medical student.

It sounds like it gave you the network and support you kind of lacked when applying to medical school, right? [10:07] Correct. Even where I was at Morehouse School of Medicine, there was no department of orthopedic surgery. If you wanted to do orthopedics, you had to go and find it yourself. So that helped tremendously, the Nth Dimensions program, and when it’s my turn to give back to them, I will hopefully have a couple med students with me and keep the same thing going.

You came from a program that didn’t even have orthopedics and went into orthopedic surgery. Was that the most challenging part of the residency process for you, or was it something else? [10:40] A very challenging part was, starting your fourth year, you do away rotations on orthopedics. You go to different institutions and, I don’t want to say you’re competing, but you’re trying to make yourself look the best that you can. And the thing is most of the other people have orthopedic home programs that they have been sitting in for years or listening to grand rounds, or they have time to go spend with the residents. They have some type of a knowledge base of what orthopedics is, the nomenclature, how to deal with certain situations. But myself, I had very limited experience. I and some of my other classmates that were going for orthopedics, when it came time for us to go and do our rotations, we fell way behind the curve. They threw an x-ray on the screen, and I didn’t know what it was. I had no idea. I couldn’t tell you what’s up from down, from left, from right.

It was a really steep learning curve, trying to figure out what I needed to know in a short amount of time. You’re on a rotation where there’s maybe 500, 600 people all competing for the same spot. That was a big hurdle: to try to work, be on time, be early, stay late, and read when you get home, just to try to be as caught up as you can. A way to overcome that is to try being the nicest person you can, working the hardest you can, and just having a good outlook on being in residency, or being able to get the chance to go and travel somewhere and help other people out and learn from other people.

Why and when did you decide to write The Med School Survival Kit? [12:42] During medical school, my friend and I, we did two things. One is that we started this real estate investing company. It was three of us, and all of our classmates knew we did that. We also were a part of what’s called a network marketing business, and we traveled as well. To my friends, all they saw was that I traveled, and they did not believe that I was in medical school because we always traveled and had fun and did real estate all the time. My classmates would say, “How do you have so much time? We’re all in med school here, but you keep traveling and having fun, and doing things. You need to write down what you did, or you need to tell people how you did it.”

Then, in fourth year, we had an “abundance” of time. I thought, “Well, maybe if this can help at least one other person, then I’ll sit back, take however much time I need to take in order to write this down, and tease out what made things work.” I don’t know if you’ve heard of the 80-20 rule, but you get most of your stuff done in a small amount of time. I had to try to figure out that 20% of productive things that I did during medical school and how you can focus on that. I tried to make all that into a book. Everything that I would’ve wanted to know going through the process, I wrote it down and said, “Here, learn this. These are ways that I found that you can effectively study. These are ways you can travel.” That’s how The Med School Survival Kit came out.

It’s almost all based on your personal experience, right? [14:52] It’s all based on personal experience, and there are some others there. For example, there is a section in a chapter on how to do research. One of my friends in med school, every time I spoke to him, he was presenting at some podium, so I asked him, “What are some tips that you have for research?” He gave me the steps, and I put them in the book. The majority are things that I personally found over the years, but some of them are just tips from other people as well.

What are your top tips for surviving and thriving in medical school? [15:27] The big thing is at the beginning of med school, it’s really easy to compare yourself to a lot of the other students. You get a grade back, and you wonder how they’re doing versus how you’re doing, or wondering, “Am I behind? Am I ahead?”, instead of worrying about sitting down and running your own race. That can kind of start to stress you out if you’re trying to see if you’re behind and you’re comparing yourself to others. Run your own race. Know that this is your med school. I know people in med school whose paths were five years instead of four years, but it was still their path. Everybody has their own path. You might not be the guy or the lady that gets a 99 on every exam, but you can excel in your own way as well.

Number two is a process called batch processing. When I came into med school, I had a job as a waiter, and then I also had this startup that we were trying to run. At the end of the day, I said, “Okay, I only have a certain amount of hours in the day. I know that I have to study for X amount of time because med school is pretty much number one.” I knew that three hours of undivided attention would go straight towards med school, nothing else at the end of the day. That means I’m not looking at Facebook, I’m not on the phone, or on social media scrolling. I’m not reading and then saying, “Oh, hold on one second. Let me go do this over here, or this over there.” It’s focusing all your attention on that one thing.

One piece of advice that one of our professors used to say is, “Study like the test is tomorrow.” Instead of passively studying, study like the test is tomorrow, and you’ll kind of get more out of it. That is something that I realized early on, and that helped out a lot as far as being able to get certain things done in a certain amount of time. What I’ve seen a lot of people do is study for about five or six hours in the library, but you’re not getting as much done in that same amount of time. Instead, you study for three hours, and then you go to see family, and then in another two hours you’re relaxed. You’re kind of in and out of studying for six hours. Then family wants you to sit down and eat, and you’re just trying to juggle a lot of different things. Those are some of the big overarching general tips, and they can be applied broadly.

Another one you alluded to just now, and that I know is a big thing in the book, is a regular program of review. There’s also an attitudinal element that I found both very appealing and not limited to just medical school: changing “I have to” to an “I get to” attitude. Could you unpack that a little bit more? [18:21] You’ve got to realize, especially if you’ve made it to the point that you’re in med school, number one, it’s so competitive. It’s so hard to do. There are thousands and thousands of people that want your spot if you’re in med school. You’re there and you’re able to speak with patients, and they put their trust in you and they believe you. You’re the person that they turn to for advice, and you get to be of service to other people. People will let you put them to sleep and cut their skin and perform surgery on them. That’s very intimate and shows just how much trust somebody has, to trust you in order for them to do that. They’re all types of things that can happen. People can die in surgery; people can end up paralyzed. There are a lot of adverse things that can happen in surgery. You’re blessed enough to be in that position, to be able to impact and help their life out, whatever it may be; it may not be surgery. It may be you’re doing a physical exam on them, and you find out that one thing that somebody else missed that can change their condition or help them live a less painful life or help their daily living.

Switch the thinking of, “Oh, I have to wake up at 6:00 in the morning and then be around all these patients and work all day.” Say, “I get the opportunity to wake up tomorrow and go help all these people out.” That is the way to look at it. That’ll not only help you help yourself and help the day progress in a good manner, but also help the patients as well because the patients will see that, and they’ll appreciate you. It’s a big responsibility that you get, being in med school, and eventually being a resident or being a doctor, whatever field you go into. There are thousands of people that want your spot, and you are so fortunate enough to have it. That’s what helps you get through those long days.

Another thing that came through in the book was that you were very committed to maintaining non-med school interests. You mentioned you had the real estate business, you were working, and you obviously are interested in sports. You had a workout routine. Do you think that maintaining those non-med school interests actually contributed to your success in medical school? [21:33] If you have something on your mind all day, every single day, and you don’t get any time to de-stress or think about something else or do something that you really enjoy doing, sometimes people can feel resentment for going to med school or being a doctor. They may feel they spent the best years of their life studying while they could’ve been out doing other things. Remember the things that made you who you were before you started medical school; that’s who you are. You’re also a doctor as well, but if you’re somebody who likes to play the piano, or if you’re somebody that likes to go for a walk, or you have your dog and you like to spend time with your dog, or exercise is important to you, or if you like to watch House or whatever TV show it is, you should make time for those things.

At the end of the day, you still have to remember that you are a person and you have things that you are interested in. If you like to travel, figure out a way to do that and de-stress, away from it all, because it can get very, very hard and very, very taxing, and eventually very mentally draining because there are times throughout your med school career where you’re sitting down and you’re studying for eight, nine, 10 hours a day, and you’re doing that for days in a row. That can be very draining if you continue to do that and do that and do that, without having any outlet. If you like to play dominoes, whatever it is, whatever you like to do, you should just try to at least carve out a little bit of time to do the things that you want to do. That way you are happier overall. If family is important to you, spend time with family. You need to create a list of things that make you happy in different areas of life, and figure out a way to incorporate that. Because if you never make time during med school, you won’t make time during residency, and you will not make time when you’re attending. So you’ve got to start off early.

Lots of premeds are planning to apply this summer and won’t start medical school till 2022, or maybe they just got accepted and are planning to start this year, in 2021. Any things that they can do to prepare themselves for, frankly, drinking from the fire hose? [23:59] That’s what it is, it is drinking from a fire hydrant, right? I remember thinking, “Maybe I should start to try to read some notes beforehand so I can learn this information.” But then what you realize is that the little amount of notes that you read now is not going to equal up to the amount of notes that you actually really need to learn in med school. One of our professors put it in a great way. He says, “Med school is like drinking from a fire hydrant. With time, you learn to drink very quickly.” You learn to adapt and how to synthesize this amount of information, because the amount of information is too much. If you try to learn all that information, you’d be spending hours and hours a day studying.

Beforehand, I’d say enjoy life. If anything, try to tease out a study schedule or figure out what things are important for you, but you will learn, and you will adapt. There’ll be a lot of trial and error during medical school. During those first couple of months of med school, you’re trying to figure out how to learn. But it’s like you said: It’s like drinking from a fire hydrant. You will learn how to drink quickly, but you can’t just drink little sips at a time. You’ve got to drink it all, and you can’t really drink all of it before starting your classes. My advice would be to try to relax, come up with a study schedule, figure out what’s important for you, and then learn how to organize all the information that you will eventually get.

Any last bits of wisdom or advice for pre-meds, for first-time applicants, or re-applicants? [25:56] You just said re-applicants, and that’s the thing: Not everybody gets in on the first try, right? Most people don’t, and I think in a situation when you don’t get in on the first time, it shows, well, how much do you really want it? How much do you really want to get into med school? It’s not about how many times you fall (you always hear this); it’s about how many times you get back up. Sit back and figure out where you need to switch something up. What didn’t go well during my first round? Did I get a bunch of interviews, but maybe there’s something in the interviews that I’m messing up or that I can improve on? Or if it’s my grades, what do I need to do in order to switch that out? It’s all part of the story and what makes your path. I’ve seen folks start med school at the age of 40. I’ve seen folks start med school at the age of 20. Time isn’t a thing. Ultimately, it’s how bad you want it. Figure out why you want it. Figure out the reason you want to be a doctor, to go to med school or PA school. Was it that you saw somebody that was close to you when you were younger have some type of illness, and that’s the thing that drives you? Any time where you feel like, “This is so much information, I don’t know how to study,” or, “I applied twice, so how do I get in?”, think back to why you started off in the first place. That’ll be the thing that drives you and lets you continue on to move past that hurdle. Because it’s all hurdles. It’s all just hurdles, and you just learn how to jump higher and higher with each hurdle.

I’m sure there are bad days in the hospital. Whether as a medical student or a resident, did you ever think that you made the wrong choice? [27:56] No. I wouldn’t say that I thought that I made the wrong choice. I may have thought like, “Man, do I really want to do this?” Then I say, “Wait, I’m here.” That thought has come about before. “Man, I haven’t slept in 48 hours. I’m still here. I chose this? Damn. Okay, I really chose this. I guess I did really choose this.” At the end of the day, you’ve got to remember: You did choose it. This is something that you wanted to do. Nobody forced you to apply. In most cases, nobody forced you to apply to med school. Nobody forced you to be an orthopedic or family medicine doctor or emergency medicine doctor. You’re the one that wanted to do it. Again, just touch back to the “why” of why you’re here in the first place. Then be appreciative of the chance. “I get to be here. There’s a lot of people that are fighting over mountains and climbing hurdles to get to this point. So let me not waste it.”

That feeling is very common. There’ll be many nights, especially studying for your step exams, where you’ll say, “Man, I’ve missed all these questions. What am I doing here?” What you’ll think is, “Should I really be a doctor?” That’s what it’ll come down to. “Am I worthy? Am I really doing this to be a doctor? Am I good enough?” That’s how it’ll all face you as. “Am I good enough? Am I smart enough? I’m just not getting this down.” You’ve just got to keep going. That’s the only advice I have: just keep going, just keep trying.

Where can listeners learn more about you and your book? [30:29] You can find me, if you want to find me, on social media. I’m not as active these days, but it’s @iamdrcole. The book is The Med School Survival Kit. You can just buy that on Amazon if you type in The Med School Survival Kit, How To Breeze Through Med School While Crushing Your Exams. Tell a friend. Tell anybody. Hopefully this helps!

Related links:

• Dr. Wendell Cole’s instagram page
• The Med School Survival Kit
• How to Save 100’s of Hours Studying: Making a Medical School Schedule That Makes Sense
• What is Medical School Really Like? a blog series
• Accepted’s Medical School Admissions Consulting

Related shows:

• What Life at Icahn Is Like as a Med Student, Parent, and More
• How This Premed Student Got Accepted to Medical School Early
• Facing Adversity as a Med School Applicant
• An International Student’s Experience at Harvard Medical School
• An Accepted Student’s Advice for Reapplying to Medical School

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The post How an Orthopedic Surgeon Survived and Thrived in Med School [Episode 418] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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Discover INSEAD’s unique one-year MBA [Show summary] Virginie Fougea, Global Director of Admissions and Financial Aid at INSEAD, shares what’s new for the school’s MBA program and what prospective applicants with global business ambitions should know.

Do you aspire to do business internationally? Consider INSEAD! [Show notes] Are you a citizen of the world? Do you aspire to be one? Do you have global business ambitions? Then you should be interested in the business school for the world, INSEAD. Its Global Director of Admissions and Financial Aid, Virginie Fougea, is our guest today.

Can you give an overview of the INSEAD MBA program for those listeners who aren’t that familiar with it, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [1:29] INSEAD was started in 1960. We welcomed our first class around those years. Since the very beginning, we have had very international classes. We have a number of Europeans represented, but also people from outside Europe. Now we have, for example, 92 different nationalities in the current classes, so that is definitely in the DNA of the school. We have a campus in Fontainebleau in France, which is 60 kilometers south of Paris, as well as the campus in Singapore. We have a hub in San Francisco, that is the newest one, and we also have a campus in Abu Dhabi. The idea was to allow people to be on the ground, and not just talk about how to do business in Asia without having put a foot in the continent.

We have an MBA, MiM (Master in Management), Executive MBA, and Executive Master in Finance. For the MBA, we welcome two classes. One in September that starts in the end of August/beginning of September, and one starts in January every year. We welcome roughly 500 students, total per class, with 300 in Fontainebleau and 200 in Singapore.

It used to be really easy for students to move among the campuses, and most students did not attend the entire program in one campus. How have COVID travel restrictions affected that? [3:14] It did affect some people during their studies. Those who were in the 2020 classes last year, obviously all the borders were closed and you couldn’t reorganize your plans. Those people obviously had to stay on the location where they were. However, quite a number of people decided, when the countries were closing down their borders, to go back home. We had a few people doing that. Others decided to stay in Fontainebleau or in Singapore and keep sharing their apartments with their roommates. To be very honest, now with the quarantine and the fact that the countries have reorganized the travel and the possibility to enter the different countries, we are able to have all our students in person on both our campuses in Fontainebleau and Singapore. For example, we just had the Master in Management students who just all went to Singapore all together. They spent the first part of the program in France, in Fontainebleau, and they all moved — the 90 of them moved — to Singapore for the rest of their program as planned. That’s the idea with the MiM is that they stay together. Obviously they had to plan the quarantine, and we facilitated all the visas and made sure that everyone could join.

What don’t people know about INSEAD that you would like them to know? What’s a common misconception? [5:11] The first one I hear when I speak with prospective applicants is, “Do I absolutely need a 700 GMAT?” My answer is always, “Well, if you want one, a 700 GMAT for yourself, then go for it.” But if it’s just purely for INSEAD, maybe a 700 is fine, but maybe you want us all to be realistic. What is the score that will make you happy and that will make you feel, “I did well,” because not everyone is comfortable taking a standardized test. Not everyone is good at math, and not everyone is a native English speaker and can fully read and write in English. Depending on all this, we are happy with any score that is more or less above or somewhere close to 600. Anything above is a competitive score for us.

Another misconception is that INSEAD is a great school for consultants, but if you’re interested in finance, it may not be such a great choice. [6:27] That’s a very good one. One thing that was really interesting, with the Lehman Brothers and all that in 2008, INSEAD managed to have one of the biggest cohorts or groups of people going into the finance sector, post-financial crisis, ahead of schools that had a higher reputation in the domain, in the sector. But we do hear that. To be very honest, I don’t mind; it’s not a reputation that hurts to have. I think it just needs to be put into perspective because an MBA with a fast pace like INSEAD’s intense MBA is very much appreciated by a consulting company. So I’m happy if the consulting companies find talent at INSEAD that are ready for their next mission. Why not? This is not something I would fight against. It’s perfectly fine if they find the talent here. It’s perfectly fine if people want to give it a try. It’s a good way of keeping the learning and the momentum post-MBA going, to go to a consulting firm where you’re put into different roles, in different sectors, different companies for short missions or longer. It makes sense. Why not?

INSEAD is very strong in general management, and its placement in consulting is fantastic, but it doesn’t mean that it can’t be good in finance, entrepreneurship, or other areas. There’s no conflict. Sometimes it’s thought that if you have strength in one area, you can’t be strong in others, and that’s just not true. [8:32] That’s true. That’s also kind of limiting a career to a post-MBA job. We all work for 20, 30, 40 years, right? You don’t do an MBA just to join a consulting firm for two years post-MBA. You do an MBA because you want to gain access to your network. You want to gain access to continuing education. There are many different reasons. Some people do it for acquiring new skills. Others to change sectors. Others to change location. There’re so many different reasons for doing an MBA that limiting it to just a post-study job is a little bit narrow. We see in the statistics that 20 years post-MBA, more than 80% of graduates have had a stint with entrepreneurship. If you try entrepreneurial ventures at some point in your career, it might not be just right after MBA; it can be 10 years down the road or 20 or 25.

Watch: Get Accepted to INSEAD [Webinar] >>

How has COVID affected the student experience on campus? Are they in class? Is it a hybrid model? What about the kind of informal interactions activities that students had enjoyed pre-COVID? [10:22] Very early on, we decided to try as much as possible to remain open and to welcome people in person. We welcomed the MiMs on the 1st of September 2020 and the MBAs a couple of weeks after, at the end of September, in person. Obviously at the same time, some people had to be in quarantine, or started in person but then had to move online because they wanted to self-isolate themselves, or for any reason had to be online. We gave the opportunity to everyone who wanted to connect remotely at any point of time. We always have both people who log in and people who are in the classroom. It requires a lot of attention and effort from the faculty. All the faculty assistants have been amazing at facilitating the Zoom sessions and at the same time through the in-person classroom experience.

Whether you call it hybrid or asynchronous, we are all used to this, but whatever the new terminology, what I do know is that the bottom line is we want people in person as much as possible, respecting the fact that some will have to be online at some point, and that it might be just two weeks away and then coming back. We realize that. That is the bottom line.

Then to your question about what has changed, obviously it changed the delivery format, with a lot more content online. Also the recruitment activities obviously moved online, or the vast majority at least. A lot has moved online in format, but also in content. The content was adjusted to fit the new world and new opportunities. So the faculty developed new content to be relevant to what was happening currently in the world.

Are students meeting online or offline for club activities and extracurricular activities, or does that depend upon the location and the level of shutdown at a particular point in time? [13:03] That will depend. Indeed, the student clubs are still meeting whenever possible in person. However, they also leverage what turned out to be good opportunities because we have seen, for example, the entrepreneurship club or the African club have managed to have guest speakers online that they would have never been able to bring on campus otherwise. That was really interesting to see that the quality of the speakers was mentioned more often from within the student population. They could have access to people that otherwise would have had to travel all the way to Fontainebleau or Singapore and who appreciated not having to commute.

You were last on Admissions Straight Talk in November 2018 for Episode 285. It was a really informative discussion of the different elements of INSEAD’s application: the essays, the CVs, the letters of rec, and the video interview. Has anything changed in the application or your evaluation process in the last two and a half years? [14:28] Yes and no. No, in that the first essay remains the same, and the number of questions are the same, but it did change a little bit in what we see in terms of expectations and what people are writing to us, and applicants’ expectations.

We see more and more people being interested in or discussing their sense of purpose or how they could make an impact on their family, on their company, on their community. The reason why we did not change the essays and rarely change them is because we’re pretty transparent. We answer questions from a lot of prospective applicants all the time. We’re pretty transparent because at the end of the day, we want to offer a chance for people to join INSEAD. It’s not a process where we feel, “Who can we eliminate?” It’s the contrary. People can showcase who they are and why they think INSEAD matches their values, what they would like to achieve in the future, not just post-MBA, as we just discussed. Hence, the questions can remain the same as long as people have this understanding that it’s about them.

Since we are all different, we all think differently. We all have different value sets. As long as you have an opportunity to explain those passions, those motivations, then that makes a unique essay, right? That’s the way we go about it. Also, the application journey, we view it as part of a starting point. It starts a little bit with the marketing activities and those first initial contacts, but it also, together with the application form, is a career journey that people start. This self-introspection and reflection. Why do they want an MBA at this point in their career? Why this school rather than the other one? For that reason, the essays can remain pretty much the same.

Wasn’t two and a half years ago also a time when there was a little bit of a rebranding at INSEAD, when INSEAD started to focus more on the greater social good in its mission? [18:02] Yes, the “Be a force for good” motto. I think that’s a very good point. Maybe it’s linked. I think this is more of a generational expectation. My kids are 25 and 23 and have the same sort of expectations for themselves, and when they are looking for a company to recruit them, they look at the values of the company. I must admit that when I started my career, I was not paying too much attention to the values of a company, and barely the gender diversity within the company. I was probably looking a little bit for some role models, but not so much. This generation pays a lot of attention to this sort of information.

Is the admissions interview at INSEAD entirely virtual now? Do you see them going back to being in person when we get beyond this? [19:32] Yes. Since the very beginning of this pandemic, yes. I think we will let people decide. Pre-COVID, we were more or less requiring face to face interviews because not everyone was at ease with a conversation like we are having at the moment, and we didn’t want to jeopardize people’s chances by putting the computer between them and their interview work. I think now people have figured that out and can be very persuasive and can have this kind of contact and the right level of body language, which is also part of an interview. I think people have got that now. So it remains to be confirmed.

Thanks to the wide network, most of the time we could find alumni within the country where the applicants were based. However, you’re very right. Sometimes that wasn’t possible. The interview selections done by the admissions officers on my team are not random. It’s a match. It’s purposeful that two people have been selected to interview a specific profile. Sometimes we didn’t have the opportunity to have the right profile of interviewer in the country, so we were struggling a little bit. That could stay with us, the online interview, the virtual interview, for countries where we have less alumni.

What’s the most common mistake you see applicants making? [19:28] Some people are over-prepared. When I say over-prepared, I mean that you try to scratch the surface and dig further to try to understand who the person is behind that, but we just get canned answers and pretty, prepared, emphatic speeches that could fit any school. It makes us ask, well, have you done your due diligence? Do you know what INSEAD is all about? It’s more of this sort of common mistake, when we read essays that are very, very dry in a way where you don’t really get to know the person.

With the virtual interviews, it can be a little trap for some people when it’s as if people are reading a script. We tend to limit our gestures when we are on the computer obviously, and we kind of look a little bit stiffer than in person, and if people are over-prepared, then even more so.

In light of the pandemic and the crazy end to last year’s admission cycle, are you reading applications with a slightly different perspective, looking or weighing differently certain qualities and attributes than you did before the pandemic? [23:06] I think this pandemic offers an opportunity to push our limits, to stretch ourselves a bit further, a little bit more, and to work on our resilience. These are things that they can showcase in an application form. From my perspective, when we select people, we also look at some sort of resilience because you learn from your failures. I’m convinced that we learn more through failures than achievements, and building your resilience is very important and can be very beneficial when it comes to recruitment and the interviews and being denied an interview for the job you thought was your dream job, but then you give it a try again, or you prepare again. But you get the feedback, you accept the feedback, and you use this resilience that I’m referring to, and initiative, and adaptability.

Watch: How to Answer MBA Application and Interview Questions about COVID-19 and Other Major Events of 2020 >>

One of the things I think that COVID has triggered, at least in the United States, is a move to go test-optional. Does INSEAD have any plans to go in that direction? [24:59] Not at all. Let me be very honest with you: If we were to recruit from a very predominant market like France, or where everyone had similar type of undergrad studies and GPAs, yes, we could apply a template and a pattern and know that above a certain GPA, the likelihood that you get a good GMAT score is very high. If you graduate from a well-known school in the US and you score a certain GPA, I can predict your GMAT. Sorry to be blunt, but it’s very true.

Consider the diversity we recruit from, the number of languages that are spoken. It’s only 20% of the class that will have English as their native language. When you bear that in mind, your ability to speak English becomes important, hence the verbal section of the GMAT. That cannot be found anywhere else in the GPA from your undergrad studies, except if you have studied in an English-speaking institution, but that’s not the case for the majority of our students. Similarly, the way you teach math in an anglophone country is very different from the way you teach math in a francophone country or in Spain or in other countries in the world where we recruit from. So for that reason, we will need a standardized test. Again, not to eliminate people or to make a cutoff, but just because otherwise we have no understanding, as you rightly pointed out. We don’t have enough elements to be able to fully and fairly assess future academic capacity.

What advice would you give to someone in the midst of preparing for an application for your January 2022 intake? In other words, that would be your June 18th or your July 30th deadline. [27:41] We will have places for the last round. However, if people are heavily dependent and relying on scholarship, then round four is a little bit risky because we will have fewer scholarship offerings for that round. Also, it can be a little bit stretched. We have an onboarding online module that is happening before the start of the program. The program is one year, but we kind of start two months or three months before by releasing some material. This material is not mandatory, but highly recommended. So if people are admitted with the last round, sometimes, if they’re not taking days off and they plan to work until the start of the program, they find it very difficult to complete the material. We have things like CV preparation, how to prepare a winning CV, mock interviews. We have a number of activities with the career development center. They’re quite important. We also have a management course. We also have a coaching program that starts before. People can complete it in one week, by locking themselves in their bedroom for a week. It can be completed in a week, but it’s recommended you do it approximately a couple of hours per week, over a window of two months, for example. So that’s much better and more beneficial.

Round four has a little bit of this disadvantage, unless people are ready to quit their jobs the moment they hear about the final decision, and they already have the finances sorted and they’re ready to come to Fontainebleau, and they don’t need a visa, or are ready to go to Singapore because they already have an entry pass for Singapore, for example. Bearing that in mind, the selection will be the same and the quality we’re looking for will be the same.

What advice would you give to someone thinking ahead to a fall 2022 matriculation or later? Any suggestions for them? [30:15] First of all, well done, because it’s something that takes a couple of months or more, maybe even a couple of years to decide to do an MBA. The GMAT prep, we covered that. The essays, it’s important to dedicate time. But it’s also informing the people you will ask for recommendations. It’s not doing you any favors to write to the person, “Can you please recommend me for this program?” 24 hours before the application deadline. It’s usually recommended that you explain your thought process, explain “why an MBA,” and then maybe what you would like to showcase, and then the person can write a meaningful letter of recommendation. Otherwise, it’s a missed opportunity. We see answers like, “I cannot comment on this.” I always feel that’s a pity, and we just disregard the letter of recommendation. It’s a waste of a recommendation.

What would you have liked me to ask you? [31:46] Maybe a question on the size of the class, and of future classes. We had a smaller class in September 2020, and we had a bigger class in January 2021. So what we decided to do for next year is go back to normal class size. The idea was that when we reduced the class size for the September 2020 intake, we didn’t know, first of all, what to expect. We all had heard about clusters and social distancing, but technically, logistically, how do you make that happen? So the dean had a number of town halls and forums with the incoming students asking them, what do you expect? What would you recommend we do? And a number of people requested the possibility to defer, which we agreed to. So we welcomed 300-plus in September 2020, and we increased the January class to accommodate the deferrals.

Where can listeners and potential applicants learn more about INSEAD’s MBA program? [33:27] We’ll be happy to stay in touch with any prospective applicants. People can always check the website at insead.edu.

Related links:

• INSEAD’s website
• INSEAD MBA Essay Tips and Deadlines
• What is INSEAD Looking For?
• Get Accepted to INSEAD, an on-demand webinar
• Accepted’s MBA Admissions Consulting Services

Related shows:

• What It’s Like to Apply for a Master’s in Finance or MBA in 2021
• What to Expect From the MBA Experience at Cambridge Judge Business School
• How the ESADE MBA Program Aspires to Make a Positive Impact
• Applying to Wharton Lauder? Do Your Research!
• What’s New at INSEAD?

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What is Duke’s physician assistant program looking for in applicants? [Show summary] April Stouder, Associate Program Director and Chair of the Admissions Committee for Duke’s PA program, explores what’s unique about this top-ranked program and what applicants can do to be competitive.

A focus on primary care makes Duke’s PA program unique [Show notes] Are you preparing to become a PA, or even just considering the field? Are you wondering how to apply successfully? Our guest today is the Associate Program Director at the first US PA program, and she’s going to tell you all about it.

April Stouder earned her bachelor’s at Manchester College and her master’s of Health Science in Duke University’s PA program in 2000. From 2002 to 2012, she worked as a PA at Duke. From 2012 to 2018, she was Director of Clinical Education at Duke, and she has served as Associate Program Director and Chair of the Admissions Committee since June 2018.

Can you give us an overview of the Duke PA program, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [1:53] Most PA programs are two years in length, and ours is no different. Perhaps what distinguishes us a little bit is our primary care-focused mission. Not every PA program is distinctly focused on primary care, but that is a big part of our mission, training primary care PAs. We are one of the programs that’s been around the longest. We were the first, established in 1965. We had a class of four graduates in 1967, and then the profession took off from there. That’s part of our proud history and always something that we like to bring up, but we’re definitely not a program that rests on our historic laurels; we’re definitely a program that likes to evolve and improve along the way.

We are one of the larger programs in the country. We have 90 students per cohort, a total of 180 students at any given time, and approximately 40 faculty and staff. As my program director always says, we’re like a giant cruise ship, a big vessel in the ocean chugging along. We’re a big program, and that does distinguish us from a lot of programs out there. We’re also housed at an academic medical center. There are other programs at academic medical centers, but that does distinguish us from some of the programs out there as well.

The curriculum includes one year of didactic instruction and one year of clinical. Is that pretty typical for all PA programs? [3:08] That is pretty typical. There’s a few programs out there that are a little bit longer in length; maybe they’ll start someone in their junior or senior year of college, and then they go straight into the PA program. But the more typical thing now, because the terminal degree is the master’s degree, is that most folks have finished their bachelor’s studies and then come to PA school as a graduate program, which is two years in length.

How has COVID affected the Duke PA program, both the didactic portion and the clinical portions? [3:45] COVID really did a number on medical education across the country, and we were certainly no exception to that. In the spring of last year, we had students out on their clinical rotations, and we had a first year cohort of students that were used to coming into the classroom, into our labs, every day. In roughly the beginning of April, we had to pull students off of their clinical rotations. The community at large was dealing with an influx of sick patients, and so we did that for the protection of students and also just to spare personal protective equipment that had to be prioritized for practicing healthcare professionals.

Our second year students came off rotations, and we kind of hit the pause button as we quickly figured out, what we could do to help them continue to move through the program. We created several virtual electives that they could participate in, focusing on things like public health, leadership, and getting extra training on substance abuse disorders. Students could opt into whatever elective kind of piqued their interest. In the first year, we had to quickly pivot our largely in-person curriculum to a virtual curriculum. We had to get up to speed very quickly with Zoom and other technologies and pivot our curriculum to either live synchronous sessions on Zoom or prerecorded sessions.

Incredibly, our second year students were able to get back out on rotations and actually finish the program just a couple of weeks past their original completion date in August. It was amazing. They were incredibly grateful to not be really, really delayed, and those virtual electives did help them continue to complete coursework and move along in the program until they could get back out on clinical rotations.

Our first year students actually started their second year in July, on time. They had been out on rotations in a pretty normal fashion. Many of our clinical rotation sites came back onboard pretty quickly and were willing to take our students back. Then we started a new cohort of students, the Class of 2022, in August, and they have been for the most part virtual, but we are doing a hybrid curriculum and prioritizing in-person activities such as our anatomy lab and physical diagnosis lab.

When do you think the didactic portion will be in-person again? [6:06] I would love to say that this fall, when we have a new cohort coming in during August, that we can have a lot more in-person activities. I think it just depends on what COVID activities are doing in the state of North Carolina. A number of our students are starting to get vaccinated. Our clinical year students were prioritized for that. First year students have actually been volunteering in Duke’s COVID vaccine clinic, and if they volunteer, they were eligible (if they had supply) to get vaccinated. We’re still waiting for direction from the institution and from the state and the Governor’s office to see what’s feasible come August, but we want to get back to some more face-to-face activities and back in our building. That normalcy — we’re just dying to get back to it.

But we’re also having conversations as a faculty about what we have learned, what about this hybrid curriculum delivery we want to keep. Because some of it’s been really great and really well received by the students, that extra autonomy and flexibility. These are adult learners, and so having students in the classroom all day long really doesn’t work for them. We’ll be having a lot of discussions this summer about what the next academic year is going to look like for our didactic students because it’s not going to look the same as it always has.

Out of crisis comes innovation. We had had resistance in the past to doing more virtual instruction from either staff or resource allocation or faculty saying, “I can’t learn yet another new skill.” We were all forced to learn new skills, and now we know we can do it. The question now is, where can we be really deliberate in where it makes the most sense to continue doing some of this hybrid or virtual curriculum delivery?

Duke is using the CASPA application. Can you review the timeline for applications and how they’re processed at Duke’s PA program? [8:08] Every PA program has a little bit of a different timeline in terms of their start dates and their CASPA dates. For us, CASPA always opens in April. This year it’ll open on April 30th, and it’ll close September 1st. Along the way, when students complete their CASPA application and send it to Duke, we’ll send them a supplemental application that’s unique to our program. The supplemental is due by October 1st. Anyone who’s applying to our program, we have a deadline of July 1st to complete the minimum prerequisite of a thousand patient care hours.

Then the GRE deadline for our program is September 15th. They can apply before they take the GRE. They just need to get us their GRE scores by September 15th in order for their CASPA to be complete and that supplemental to be sent to them. The supplemental needs to be done by October 1st.

You have everything by October 1st, and then what happens? Do you wait till October 1st to start processing? [9:18] No, we get way too many applications to wait. We have rolling admissions. Once we start getting completed supplemental applications, we have an admissions team that begins looking at those applications and making sure that they meet all of our pre-reqs, meet basic criteria that would allow them to move ahead and go into the reading pool. We have faculty and alums who help us with reading our applications. Each application that comes in gets reviewed by our program. It’s a lot of reviewing, and we need a big chunk of time to get through all of those applications.

4,000 was maybe our peak. The incoming class of 2020 was the most CASPA applications we’d ever received. It drops off after there because not everyone who submits a CASPA application submits a completed supplemental; usually about half the people who do a CASPA complete a supplemental. Last cycle, we were worried what COVID was going to do to our numbers, and we actually had more applications come in. So 2018 was the peak, 2019 dropped off, and in 2020 we went up, and we all just held our breath because we had no idea what COVID was going to do to our numbers. We had about 3,100 CASPA applications and we had about 2,200 completed supplementals. And of those 2,200, about 1,400 of them ended up going into the reading pool to be read by two faculty members and scored.

What’s the criteria for going into the reading pool? [11:00] You have to meet our pre-reqs. If you don’t meet pre-reqs, we don’t even move it forward. Then we have some objective measures that sort of help us delineate those 2,200 applications because there’s no way we can really read 2,200 in-depth. There are some objective criteria based on academic performance, patient care experience, natural science credits. That sort of gives us a rough number, an objective score. Anything that’s above a certain threshold goes into the general reading pool. Again, that’s about 1,400 applications that make it into that pool.

What are the academic stats or background that you’d like to see, other than the specific requirements on the website in terms of GRE and GPA? [11:38] We’re not a program that has hard cutoffs for GPA or GRE. We utilize a holistic approach to our admissions review, meaning that we are looking at academics in the context of someone’s life experience. We know there’s a lot of folks out there who may be a first generation college student, or they had big events that happened to them in college and so maybe they had a rough start to their freshman year or had a traumatic experience in college and they had a dip one semester. We really look at the evolution of the student over their college career. Do they have an upward trend to their grades? If somebody fails a course or doesn’t do well one semester, that’s really not a deal-breaker. Sometimes someone may have a little bit lower GPA, but their GRE’s great, or vice versa.

We’re looking for people who have shown grit and tenacity and growth and evolution as a student and as a person. Oftentimes they can give us that context in their life experience essay. That helps us really take a look at their story. “What happened here their freshman year? But look, they’ve really grown over the course of their college.”

We don’t necessarily require that somebody is a science major. In fact, we have a lot of people who are not science majors, those maybe who are actually doing a second career or who maybe just have a lot of interests. It’s not unheard of that we have English majors or art history majors or philosophy majors who decide, “Hey, I want to go into medicine, and PA looks pretty good.” That’s all part of their journey and their evolution, and we love to hear those stories. Everybody has to have the pre-req science courses; those are outlined on our website and pretty similar to PA programs across the country. We love to see students who’ve been successful in upper level science courses, rigorous courses, but we’re also not looking for those people who are just the 4.0, straight A’s, peak GREs, because a lot of those folks don’t have some of the life experiences, work experiences. So there’s a lot of diversity in our classroom in terms of the educational background, the work history, and the life experiences, and that’s what makes our learning environment so rich.

What kind of clinical experience is the Duke PA program seeking? I know that you want a minimum of a thousand hours, and I was very impressed by the fact that your students have multiples of that. [13:58] The average is about 18 months, but we certainly have people who have 10 years of clinical experience. If somebody has just the thousand hours, they may be less competitive, and it might actually benefit them to wait a year to apply and get another year of clinical experience under their belt. We’re looking for applicants who have hands-on clinical experiences. Particularly attractive are those clinical roles where maybe they had to get some extra education or licensure like an EMT, a certified nursing assistant, or an RN. There are a number of roles where there’s just sort of advanced responsibility in terms of patient care and decision-making; that’s always very attractive. But you can’t beat a clinical experience where you really have had to get into the nitty-gritty of taking care of somebody. A tech in the hospital, a CNA in a nursing home, a medical assistant in a clinic, those are all very popular patient care roles and are really attractive to us because it allows somebody to evaluate, “Is patient care truly for me?”

What about scribing? Or is that not hands-on enough? [15:16] We do actually take scribing. I think there are some programs out there who don’t. We’ve actually seen kind of an evolution of the scribe role to more of a hybrid medical assistant role. That’s fantastic, although we do count just straight-up scribing, even though it’s not hands-on. Those students actually tend to do really well in their medical knowledge or medical documentation; they really know their stuff because they also have been right in the thick of it and actually communicate a lot with the provider about their medical decision-making, so they’ve been exposed to a lot.

What about non-clinical community service? Is that relevant? [15:52] We love community service and a record of volunteerism; that actually aligns a lot with our mission. We’re really looking for applicants who have demonstrated leadership, involvement, or service in their community, that they value diversity and inclusion either through their volunteer experiences, their lived experiences, or their educational experiences. All of those things are really important to us. Someone who has a demonstrated record of service in the community. There is a place on the CASPA for you to record your volunteer or service hours. Particularly if you have a record of service with underserved communities or populations, that very much aligns to the mission of our program and actually the mission of the PA profession and why it was created. We love to see that as part of an application.

4,000 gets winnowed down to 1,400 based on objective criteria, and then you interview about 250. That’s about 20%. Ultimately, you’ll matriculate 90. How do you winnow it down? [16:49] There’s the objective score based on some of those objective criteria, and then the readers have a rubric and they evaluate as well. They’re really taking that context into consideration, reading the essays, looking at the letters of recommendation. Looking at the whole picture, their community service. Have they been exposed to the PA profession, either through shadowing or working with PAs? Do they know what they’re getting into? Do they talk about that in their essays? We’re evaluating folks on whether or not they’re making an informed decision. Do we think that this person would bring value as a cohort in the class, either through some of their work experiences, life experiences? Those scores get combined with the objective score, and then an overall score is created. We have a certain number of interview slots based on that final score, and then we fill our interview slots. We interview about 250 people.

What is the interview day at Duke’s PA program like, especially in the time of COVID? [18:16] COVID definitely pushed us to our technology limits. We had to virtualize our admissions process, as did almost every program in the country, I think. It was a big topic of conversation at the National PA Education annual meeting, which was also virtual, talking about how people did that. This is also another thing that we’re looking at in terms of what we keep for our next cycle. It’s actually very cost-friendly for applicants to be able to do virtual admissions interviews. We got great feedback from our applicants, and they said, “We really feel like we were able to get to know the program, get to know the faculty, get all of our questions answered.” Particularly since we are interested in recruiting students from disadvantaged or underrepresented backgrounds, we know that travel and costs for interviews are very expensive. So we’re keeping that in the back of our mind as we make our decisions about the coming year and what format we’re going to keep.

For the virtual interview week, the applicants were assigned a specific day to interview: Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday. Monday late afternoon we had an information session. We sent out pre-recorded videos that went over highlights of our curriculum, both the first and second year. Then we held a Q&A session. They were supposed to watch those videos and come ready with their questions, and they always have lots of great questions. That’s hosted by our faculty representatives from both the first and second year teams. Monday night there was a student-hosted Q&A session on “What’s it like to be a Duke PA student?” There’s no faculty or staff there so they can come and get their questions answered.

They showed up on their interview day virtually, and they had two individual interviews. That could be with a faculty member, that could be with a preceptor that sees a lot of our students, an alum. We have a variety of folks who come and help us with interviews. There are two one-on-one interviews, and then there’s a team process exercise, which is a small group scenario, usually about four to five applicants in a group. It’s facilitated and observed by one faculty or alum or preceptor and then one currently enrolled student. They’re given a scenario and then they’re meant to chat and talk through it. We purposely choose ethical scenarios or maybe something that’s a little controversial. It’s not meant to rate their knowledge of the topic; it’s meant to really look at their team skills, their interpersonal skills. It’s really interesting sometimes how people behave in that scenario. So there are three main components to our interview day. This is true also in in-person interviews.

There’s one thing that we added this year, because they’re virtual admissions. On Thursday night, we added a diversity and inclusion discussion. Again, this was hosted by students and it was an opportunity for applicants who really wanted to know what it’s like to be a student of color or a first-generation student who’s coming to Duke. What kind of learning environment is Duke, and how is Durham as a place to live? What is it like to be a parent, or what kind of resources are there for veterans? That was very well received by our applicants and I definitely think we’ll be keeping that as a component of our admissions weeks moving forward. I think applicants appreciate that time with students to really get into the nitty-gritty of what’s it like to be a student here, but also just get all their questions answered from faculty and feel really supported and get a feel for our culture.

Did you use the MMI before COVID? Did it get put to the side? [21:59] We don’t do MMI. It’s that team process exercise. We just virtualized that, and we’re able to do a breakout room in Zoom, and it still worked beautifully.

Is there anything that you look for throughout the application process, not just the interview but in the essays or the supplementals or the letters of rec, that you didn’t look for one, two, five, or 10 years ago? [22:34] In the last five years, we really have honed in on the focus of our program match to mission. Again, looking at applicants who have demonstrated leadership, have demonstrated grit and tenacity in overcoming obstacles in their life. People talk about that in their essays a lot. Sometimes their letters of recommendation reveal things like, wow, this person really overcame a difficult time and came out on the other end of that really positively. I think we’re looking for maturity and how they respond to difficult situations. Some of our interview questions can get to that.

The profession was built off of the backs of military veterans who were corpsmen in the Vietnam War, so veterans are really an attractive potential student for us and for other PA programs across the country, so we love that. Anyone who is a North Carolina native, we’re a North Carolina-based school, so we really like it when we get North Carolina applicants, because we know that they’re more likely to stay and help meet the healthcare needs of this local area.

Also, does somebody have a record of volunteer service? Have they worked or done volunteer work with underserved populations or communities? It really sort of gets to the heart of, has this person (either because of their life experiences, work experiences, volunteer experiences) developed empathy and an understanding of some of the challenges that their patients are likely to face? Our patients come from all different backgrounds. We have an aging population in the US. We have an increasingly diverse population in the US, and we want to help train future PAs that reflect that diversity and will go and be able to make connections with those patients in those communities because they understand what that’s like themselves. That’s important to us, and I think we look at that a lot more now than we have in years past as part of that evaluation.

How does the PA program respond to update letters or waitlist letters? Say somebody submitted a supplemental and they don’t hear back from you. The silence is driving them nuts, and they have something they’d like you to know about. Should they send an update? [24:49] We get those a lot in all of those scenarios, and we absolutely encourage applicants to keep us updated if there’re changes to their applications, something new, something updated. Whatever they have submitted at the time of application completion, that’s really what we’re looking at. But it’s not uncommon that someone may have a prerequisite course that’s in progress. Applicants can have two prerequisites still in progress at the time that they apply. They might send us updated transcripts or things like that.

Sometimes we get external letters of recommendation from someone, and we just add that to our file of recommendations. People do give us updates that either they’ve accepted a seat somewhere else but they’re still interested in us, or it’s “Where am I on the waitlist and when am I going to hear about possible interviews?” We’re very used to communicating. They just email us through our central email address that’s located on our website, PAadmissions@mc.duke.edu, and someone typically responds to them within 24 hours. We’ve got a whole team that helps man that inbox.

On a forward-looking note, what advice would you give to PA applicants who want to apply this cycle, starting April 30th? What would you like listeners this cycle to know? [26:15] One thing that we often tell potential applicants is that they want to submit the best application that they can, and sometimes that means waiting a year to apply. That is not always easy advice for someone to hear who’s really excited about applying and really excited to start PA school and jumping into the profession. But keep in mind that applying to PA programs is expensive; it is an investment in and of itself. So I really encourage people to take a hard look at some of the data that’s on our website, what the middle 50th percent is for one of the past cohorts. Really take a look at patient care experience, number of natural science credits, GPAs, GRE. Take a little self-assessment. “Am I in range here, or do I have a little bit more work that I need to do? Maybe I need to retake that GRE or maybe another year of patient care experience that would sort of give me that bump up and make me a little bit more competitive. Maybe I don’t have a record of service or leadership or anything like that.” So take a comprehensive look.

Sometimes it’s hard to be discerning of your own application because of your enthusiasm. Use the criteria we have on the website and really ask, “Is this the most competitive application that I can submit?” Because keep in mind, of PA programs across the country, this is very competitive. There’s only a certain number of seats, and we get lots of applications. PA was just rated number one healthcare profession in the country. The interest is tremendous, and the capacity can’t meet all the interest. You need to really have an application that makes you stand out in some way. Sometimes that means waiting a year and getting additional life and work experience or boning up on your academic credentials a little bit to make sure that you’re the most competitive applicant at the time you’re paying all that money and submitting your CASPA.

Med applicants are not expected to have had a “real” job when they apply, but my impression is that most PA applicants are expected to have had a job in healthcare. It’s fairly rare that volunteer experience is sufficient. Is that correct? [28:39] That is correct. Most programs do require patient care experience. I think the average age at our program for our matriculating students is about 25 or 26, which is distinctly different from the typical 22, 23 year old that’s starting med school. That’s not to say that we don’t have students who fall into that age category and in each of our cohorts; we do. But they’ve been really proactive in getting patient care experiences while they were in college, maybe they got EMT-certified or worked in a nursing home, etc. They knew what the requirements were ahead of time and were actively working to get those patient care hours. But typically people take a gap year. They work for a year or two after college and get that really valuable experience and make sure that they’ve got a good chunk of life experience and work experience before they apply.

Thinking ahead, what about those planning to apply for matriculation in 2023 or later? [29:44] My advice is similar. Hone in on submitting the best application that you can. The other thing is to make sure that you understand what you’re getting into. By that I mean, do your homework. Maybe talk to somebody who is currently in a PA program and get an understanding of the rigor and the fast pace of PA education. By all means, seek out opportunities to talk to practicing PAs, and not just one, but maybe PAs that work in different fields. The work of a PA looks very different if you work in an emergency room or if you work in an outpatient pediatrics office or if you work as a hospitalist doing internal medicine in the hospital all the time, if you’re a surgery PA versus critical care, etc. Understand the diversity of the profession and different scopes and roles. Really get a sense of what, would life be like to do that job and what does it mean to take care of patients? Get a good hands-on patient care job and make sure it’s for you.

Taking care of people is messy, physically messy sometimes, and can be emotionally messy. People are complex. Make sure that you’ve done your homework and that you know for sure that medicine and being intimately involved in your patient’s lives is something that’s for you. It seems like a no-brainer, but you’d be surprised by people who apply and they’ve never met a PA, never worked with a PA, never talked to a PA. They’ve only done their research online. It blows my mind that they’re willing to invest that much money on education and not really have totally done your homework on what it means to be a PA. They think it’s the fastest path, two years and you’re done. There are people who definitely fall into that category, and we sort them out pretty quickly.

Are there any misconceptions that you would like to dispel about the Duke PA program in particular or PA programs in general? [31:56] We’re a large program, so we always get questions every year in those Q&A sessions, and I know our students get questions about this: That’s a really big program, 90 students per class, so am I really going to get personalized attention? Am I going to get the support that I need? Are people going to know who I am? And I would say yes, absolutely. I think our students would too. They always do because as we have grown over the years, we have built in support structures to make sure that students are known by faculty, that they get to know each other.

We do a lot of small group work in the curriculum and we shift those small groups every semester, so they get to know a subset of their class. We have advising small groups, so every student has an advisor. In the second year they have a clinical coordinator, a faculty member. They basically have two faculty supports once they move into the clinical year. Students can build relationships with whichever faculty they have a connection or maybe a similar clinical interest. We work really hard to make sure that culture feels very inclusive and that students feel known and accepted and appreciated for whatever they bring to the table.

The other thing is that sometimes our name and the fact that we’re one of the top-ranked programs in the country perhaps works against us because there’s a bit of an intimidation factor. People say, “Oh, that’s one of the top programs. I won’t even apply because I don’t think I’d get in because some aspect of my application is imperfect. I don’t have a great GRE. I don’t have a perfect GPA.” We have students who sit in our class every single year who have imperfect GREs and GPAs. It’s that holistic approach that we look at. Things happen in people’s lives that impact a GPA, and that can be hard to dig out of, but we’re looking for those trends and improvement. We’re looking for that grit and resilience.

Keep in mind what our program mission is. Take a look at our social media accounts on Instagram and Facebook. Our students run our Instagram social media, and they talk about the culture and what it’s like to be a student at Duke. If you personally, as an applicant, feel like you strongly align with our program mission, with our values, we want to see your application. Don’t be intimidated by our name or our ranking, and don’t make an assumption that we’re only accepting people with 4.0s and perfect GREs because that is not the case.

What would you have liked me to ask you? [34:46] I would have loved a question about diversity. Diversity and inclusion has been a huge hot topic, particularly in the last year or two with major national events. We are also wrestling with some of those issues with systemic racism in our own program, at our own institution, and having really frank talks about that. We have revised parts of our curriculum to really focus on that. Our PHS course, Practice in the Health System course, was completely overhauled this past year, so that there were small group discussions about how race and ethnicity and socioeconomic factors and disability play into health disparities.

Some of those are really hard conversations to have, but they’re really necessary to train these students to go out and be competent PAs, to be able to meet their patients where they are and understand that there’s a whole host of things that are impacting their world outside of that clinic or that hospital that may get in the way of that perfect treatment plan. Their life sometimes gets in the way of that. How can we train PA students to be cognizant of that?

We’ve been really intentional. We’ve got some things on our website and our social media accounts that really speak to some of the work that we’re doing. That’s never-ending work. I want to acknowledge and thank the leadership of our Program Director, Dr. Jackie Barnett, who has done a lot of that work over her long career and her life and who’s been a phenomenal leader through all of these challenging and tumultuous times with COVID and so many of the events that have happened this past year.

Where can listeners learn more about the program and about earning a master’s of Health Science at Duke? [36:36] They can always email us at PAadmission@mc.duke.edu. That’s our general admissions email. We also have our general PA program website at FMCH.duke.edu. Look for the physician assistant program and our department. Follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Our Instagram handle is @DukePAStudnets, and again, that’s our student-run fun Instagram. We’ll be having admissions events and Facebook live events, and we always have students take over Instagram for admissions as well, and so look for those announcements coming soon.

Related links:

• Duke Family Medicine and Community Health PA program website
• The Ultimate Guide to Becoming a Physician Assistant, a free guide
• Interview with a New PA
• Accepted’s CASPA Application Package

Related shows:

• How Did This Successful PA Applicant Get Accepted?
• Andrea Benedict: Life as a Physician Assistant
• Yale’s Online PA Program: Is an Online Ivy League PA Program Too Good to Be True?
• A Medical School Admissions Expert’s Guide to Postbacs and Med Schools

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The post All About Duke’s Top-Ranked PA Program [Episode 416] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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Everything you need to know to about the latest incarnation of the LSAT [Show summary] LSAT prep expert Steve Schwartz returns to the Admissions Straight Talk to discuss the demise of the LSAT-Flex, the future of the LSAT, and essential test prep tips for law school applicants.

How to prep right and crush the LSAT! [Show notes] LSAC recently announced new test dates, the demise of LSAT-Flex, and the return of the LSAT, but remotely. Let’s get the low-down from LSAT expert Steve Schwartz of LSAT Unplugged.

Steve Schwartz, of the LSAT blog and the LSAT Unplugged podcast and YouTube channels, graduated from Columbia University in 2008. In high school and college, he tutored students in a variety of subjects and also helped prep test-takers for standardized tests, including the LSAT. However, he really began to focus on the LSAT when he was applying to law school. He founded the LSAT Blog in 2008 and never looked back. Today, 13 years later, he has helped thousands master the LSAT, get into law school, and secure scholarships worth thousands of dollars.

We spoke almost exactly one year ago when the LSAT-Flex was new. COVID-19 was new. At the time we discussed the new and remote LSAT-Flex. Today, we’re going to discuss the demise of the LSAT-Flex. What gives? [2:02] The Flex was always meant to be temporary. That’s why LSAC gave it the Flex name to distinguish it from the normal regular LSAT. But here we are, one year later, COVID-19 is unfortunately still with us to some extent, although hopefully things will be looking better later this year with the vaccine rollouts and such. But they can’t keep administering the LSAT without experimental sections. They’ve got to be able to test out future questions. So starting in August this year, they’re adding back in an experimental section, and they’re going to start calling it just the LSAT again.

How is the LSAT going to be different from the LSAT-Flex, given that they are both remotely proctored exams? [2:55] It’s a very, very small difference. I don’t want people to get overly stressed about it. It’s still the same question types, the same difficulty level. You’re going to have logic games, logical reasoning, and reading comprehension like before. It’ll still be the same length of 35 minutes per section, but the overall test sitting will be longer by adding back in that fourth, unscored, experimental section. They’ll also insert a break between the second and third sections. So the length gets a little bit longer: a 10 minute break, plus another 35 minutes for that fourth section. So test-takers are looking at roughly a 45-minute longer exam, but as you said, it’ll still be online.

Are there any in-person testing centers planned for those who prefer that? [3:46] Not currently. At the moment, I don’t think that we’ll see any for quite a while, but LSAC indicates they’re open to the possibility, although they still will keep the online option, we’re expecting. They’ve said it’ll be online through at least June, 2022. But this is still much shorter than the pre-COVID LSAT, which had five sections: four scored, one unscored experimental. The LSAT, for the foreseeable future, will have three scored sections plus one unscored experimental section.

With the GMAT, you have an option to take it in-person or remotely. MCAT, the medical aptitude test, is entirely in-person. The LSAT is entirely remote. So each one has a different approach? [4:25] Yeah. There are so many logistical things for them to deal with that I can understand. On the one hand, I think it’s nice to give people options. On the other hand, it’s a lot of work to offer it in multiple contexts, and in-person. If I understand correctly, the GRE is virtually every day. The LSAT’s not even every month. It’s almost every month, so they don’t have that same level of regularity. Things are kind of ad hoc each time they’re doing it.

Will applicants know which section is experimental? [5:39] They will not know during the exam. They will not know whether that unscored extra section is going to be games, reasoning, or reading comp, and they also don’t know where in the exam it’ll be. It could be your first section, and it’s unscored. It could be the last section, in which case, at least you’ve already gotten through the stuff that mattered to you, or it could be somewhere in the middle. And they don’t tell you which section it’s going to be, because if they did, you probably wouldn’t try as hard. And then that would affect their ability to benefit from the results of what you’re doing. They want to be able to see how you perform. So there’s going to be three types of sections, but one of them you’re going to get twice. So at the end of the test, you’ll know that one of those two is the test. After all is said and done, you’re going to know that if you had two logic games sections, one of those was the fake one. You’re just not going to know which one it is. But let’s say you do logic games section one, logic games section two. Then you know the reading comp and logical reasoning are going to be real.

Do you recommend that applicants take the LSAT-Flex, or should they wait for the traditional LSAT? [7:02] All else being equal, I think anybody would prefer to do it without the experimental section and be done by June. But I would not recommend that you rush it if you’re not fully ready by June. And that additional two months could make a big difference. That is an enormous caveat that everyone should pay close attention to, in all of these contexts. I think people just want to be done with this stuff, and get on to the actual grad school they’re applying to or the law school they were applying to. This is just a means to an end, but these things are incredibly important. Your LSAT score matters a great deal. Don’t rush to get it done by June. Just to do the three section version, when an extra two months could make an enormous difference in getting a higher LSAT score, getting more scholarship money, and getting into better schools. That June versus August thing, with the August LSATs in mid-August, you get your results back at the end of August, so you can still apply at the beginning of the cycle either way.

How should applicants adjust their prep in light of the additional section and increased length of the LSAT versus the LSAT-Flex, if they’re not ready to take it by July? [8:33] Practice like it’s going to be on game day. Do four section practice test sittings, splice in an unscored extra section from another exam, and place that extra section in any position, first, second, third or fourth. It’s kind of funny, actually, but the released prep tests from the past are all four section exams, because the exam used to be four scored sections plus that fifth unscored experimental section. So if you want to insert logical reasoning as your extra section for the new LSAT starting in August 2021, you’ve already got it built in with all of the previously released exams. There’s nearly a hundred like that. But you don’t want to only use logical reasoning as your extra section. You should also make some little Frankenstein exams, inserting logic games sections from other prep tests or reading comp sections from other prep tests. If you do that, you’ll be ready.

LSAC indicated it may need to adjust the score release date given anticipated higher volume for the August administration specifically. How much longer do you think it will take to get the score, if you take the August test? [9:54] I would say you’ll probably get it within three weeks. It used to be a three week wait to get your score back with the Flex, so three weeks since you took it or three weeks of that testing period. It used to be, of course, pre-Flex, on a single day. It wasn’t like you had a whole week of Flex administrations, like we have now with the online LSAT. They wouldn’t even be precise about the day. They would have an estimated release date, but then release it randomly early, so everybody was super stressed about whenever it would come out. With the Flex, they’ve adjusted things. With the new LSAC president, Kellye Testy, who’s great, they’ve been much better at communicating with students. They’ve been saying, “Two weeks from now, you’ll get it.” They actually stick to the date. That’s very comforting for folks to not be frantically checking their LSAC accounts or their emails.

But as they’re changing things up a little bit, I think they’re giving themselves a little bit of wiggle room, a little bit of a buffer, because they also want to calibrate things a bit more with the longer testing sitting, the potentially higher volume of people. They might have some more work to do on their end. So they were saying maybe a little bit longer. I’m guessing three weeks at most, though. Also, law schools really want those scores. They want to get moving on applications, and LSAC is an organization meant to serve law schools. If law schools want something, and they’re all in the same boat on that thing, LSAC’s going to really work hard to deliver it. So I’d expect, at the very least, within like the first week of September. But I’m sure they’ll be working around the clock to get them out.

COVID accelerated programs going test-optional or to issuing test waivers. Do you see that happening in the law school world? Why or why not? [11:36] There’s two questions here. One is, will they start taking the GRE as well? And then separately, will they go test-optional entirely? With regard to the GRE, I do expect that more and more law schools will take the GRE as a way to widen the applicant pool. They can, of course, evaluate folks on other criteria, like their GPAs, their application essays and such. They can choose very carefully whom they choose to admit with their GRE score as opposed to the standard, which is the LSAT. On a long enough timeline, virtually every law school will take the GRE as well, especially once Harvard made that big announcement. Many other schools followed suit shortly thereafter. Because if Harvard does it, then it must be okay. Also, I think they’d like to be able to widen the pool and take more applicants. That increases their selectivity if nothing else. There’s a strong incentive to do it simply for competitive benefit over other law schools. I think we’ll certainly see every law school or most law schools take it eventually.

Test-optional is a different story though, because in part, the American Bar Association requires schools to use a valid and reliable admission test. For most of the time that we’ve been around, it’s been the LSAT as the main game in town. The GRE is a fairly new entrance. Is it valid or reliable? That’s debatable, but it seems to be that they’re accepting that. No one’s going to shut down a law school for doing the GRE instead. But test-optional altogether, I think, is tough to sell.

I think there was a school in Arizona that said that they considered the first semester of law school to be the best possible test for how you would do in law school. They were actually accepting students provisionally based on their performance during the first semester of 1L. And they said, “Well, if you can cut it that way, then we will take you for the remainder of the three years.” I thought it was a very creative interpretation of “valid and reliable admission test.” They got away with it from what I’ve seen. I didn’t see anything saying that it wasn’t going to work. Of course, this was with a very small number of students. I think it might have been only for their own school’s undergraduates, so it was maybe like a pilot program or mini-pipeline of sorts. It wasn’t like they were opening this up to the entire world. I have my concerns about it though, because if you don’t do well, then you just spent the first semester’s tuition and have nothing to show for it, if you don’t get taken for the rest of it. So I have some concerns regarding that, and I’m not sure that a lot of schools would go that route. But that could be one pathway to standardize test-optional, while still technically falling within what the ABA requires, under, again, what I consider a creative interpretation there.

There are a lot of students who, for whatever reason, they just don’t do well on standardized tests. It could be nerves. It could be anxiety. It could be any one of a number of factors, but they’ve demonstrated their aptitude and their ability to succeed in law school, based on some other factor. It could be work experience. It could be their GPA. And so if they can show, for example, that their SAT or ACT performance did not accurately predict how they would do in undergrad, and they killed it in undergrad and got a great GPA, then why wouldn’t we think they could do similar in law school as well?

The one concern I have, which I think is why the ABA requires this test, is bar passage rates. If the bar exam exists and it’s required to practice as an attorney, then we want to make sure you’re going to do well on that. The LSAT has some correlation with first year law school grades, which in turn can translate into bar passage to some extent. But these aren’t the strongest correlations in the world, so I could see why in many, many cases, it wouldn’t line up. I actually think there’s far too much emphasis placed on standardized tests in general. To some extent they’re a necessary evil, but I’d love to see alternatives.

It’s kind of putting your money where your mouth is to the student: “If you think you can do well in law school, show us and we’ll admit you.” [17:19] At the same time, I still wonder about how the law school gets that money, so they have incentive to offer that program. And secondly, a lot of students desperately, desperately want to go to law school, and then they’re taking out big loans. I could see some of these bottom of the barrel law schools, and I’m not going to name any names here, but there are certain schools that don’t have the student’s best interest in mind as much as they have their tuition dollars in mind. They need those students to make their overhead, and some schools are in trouble. They’re looking to get dollars wherever they can get them. And that’s where you have certain things like these Masters of Legal Studies degrees, for example, that I’m not sure are a good substitute for getting a JD.

What are your top tips for people taking the LSAT remotely? [18:13] My biggest tip is to really simulate the testing environment as much as you possibly can, making sure you’re taking your practice tests in the same room you’ll take the actual thing, making sure your internet connection is strong, and if not, reaching out to LSAC about getting an alternative place to take it. They’ll reimburse you if you want to take it out to a hotel, for example, with good internet. I’d say, wired internet, if possible, and make sure no one else is using it at the same time. Make sure it’s strong enough, because there’s nothing more frustrating than getting kicked out in the middle of a timed exam setting on the real thing. So simulate, simulate, practice, practice. Make sure that you’re used to the online LSAT format. LSAC created LawHub, a.k.a. official LSAT prep plus, where you can take the majority of LSATs with the same look and feel the same style you’ll do on actual test day. Don’t do the majority of your studying in books, when the exam has changed format completely.

Somebody can do everything you said, do practice tests, take the exam, work on a wired internet connection, and still something will happen, like their internet goes down. What happens then? What do they do? [19:27] That’s the worst thing because you could do everything right, and then something happens with a totally external factor that just ruins it for that day. What you do is reach out to LSAC, immediately, and ask the proctor to make a note of it as well, if possible, depending on what happened. In some cases, LSAC will set up an alternative date in the short term, so maybe you could take it a week or two later. Alternatively, you might not be able to take it until the next sitting, which is typically going to be a month later, maybe two, but that’s really the best they can do for you, unfortunately, in most cases. They can’t undo what happened already. A power outage of course is out of their control. There are things that go wrong on ProctorU’s end as well, and ProctorU, by the way, is the organization administering and proctoring the online LSAT. There could be things that happen that are at their fault as well. Either way, reach out to LSAC. Reach out multiple times if necessary. Hopefully, they’ll make it right. They don’t always get back to people quickly though, just because of the volume of people they’re dealing with. But keep following up, keep calling. Call first thing in the morning, if you can, because that’s the best chance of getting through to them without a long wait time.

Where can listeners and LSAT test-takers learn more about your coaching service? [21:11] Again, I’m Steve Schwartz. I run the LSAT Blog and the LSAT Unplugged YouTube channel and podcast. I’m pretty easy to reach through all of these platforms. I’ve also got a free, easy LSAT cheat sheet folks can download at bit.ly/lsatcheatsheet, and that’s the best way to get started.

Related links:

• LSAT Blog
• LSAT Unplugged podcast
• LSAT Unplugged YouTube Channel
• Help! My LSAT is Low – Should I Still Apply to Law School?
• Applying to Law School During the Coronavirus Pandemic
• Accepted’s Law School Admission Consulting Services

Related shows:

• What to Expect From the New LSAT-Flex
• Making the LSAT Learnable with Blueprint Prep
• The Test Prep Experts’ Guide to the LSAT
• Two Admissions Experts on the Latest in Law School Admissions
• What a Law Career Is Really Like
• Acing the LSAT
• Law School Admissions: What You Need to Know

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Do you fit with USC’s Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry?[Show summary] Dr. Anita Tourah, Assistant Dean for Admissions and Student Affairs at Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry of USC, offers an inside look at the dental student experience and admissions process.

How an emphasis on research, education and patient care makes USC’s Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry unique [Show notes] Are you thinking of a career in dentistry? Worried about how to get in? Wondering what a dental education requires before you earn that DDS? My guest today is the Dean of Admissions at a top dental school.

Dr. Anita Tourah is Associate Professor of Clinical Dentistry and Assistant Dean for Admissions and Student Affairs at the Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry of USC. She earned her bachelor’s degree in chemical engineering at Tehran Azad University and earned her DDS from Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry, as well as a special certificate in prosthodontics.

Can you give me an overview of the Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry of USC’s program, focusing on its more distinctive elements? [1:46] Our school is focused on three fundamentals: research, education, and patient care. These are an integral part of who we are. If we go to the research, we’ve been consistently part of the top-funded private dental schools by the National Institute of Dental and Craniofacial Research, and we have trained many academic leaders who run NIH-funded research nationwide and worldwide. We encourage our students to do research, either basic research or translational research, and our faculty guide them to conduct that research and also put together the manuscript for publication. We host a very successful annual research day, and that’s when our students, faculty, and postdoctoral fellows come together to show their innovative discoveries. We also have a publication, The Explorer, which has won multiple national awards that provides a comprehensive summary of all the innovative discoveries that we do at USC.

The second fundamental is patient care. We are located in the heart of Los Angeles. We have a great and extensive array of patients for our students, and we have very extensive community outreach programs, such as Union Rescue Mission, Mobile Clinic, QueensCare, and numerous rotations to the hospitals and communities that give treatment to our patients. Many of those treatments are free for our patients.

Education. We strive for the best education for our students and we always try to bring new technology, new equipment, new software, new faculty with new ideas. This commitment shines through in all that we do in the field of prosthodontics, endodontics, periodontics, and so on. So at Herman Ostrow, we provide the best education for our students, we provide the best treatment for our patients, and we’re always trying to find new innovations through our research program.

Is research required for the students? How soon do they start in terms of patient care? [3:58] No, it’s not a required part. But if they’re interested, we encourage them, and we guide them and we support them throughout the process.

Patient care starts in the third year. The first two years are mostly preclinical where they unlock skills and procedures. Once they complete that program, those first two years in a preclinical setting, then they go to the clinic and start patient care.

Ostrow students have “significant preclinical experience, education, training, and restorative dentistry using simulators.” Can you disclose what kinds of simulators? How does that work? [4:34] Dentistry is a very unique profession. Just think about it. We’re working in a very limited space, and it’s dark and everything is slippery. Everything is in either millimeter or it’s in micron, so it could be very challenging to actually provide dentistry to the patient. We strive for excellence and we want the best quality for our patients, so therefore, we want to mimic these patients in the preclinical setting so that our students learn how to manage them. We have mannequins that have a face, so there’s a limited spacing; they have teeth and they have a jaw that they cannot open very much, and the chair cannot be upside down, so the patient you see straight from the top. We’re simulating the patient, so during the first year and second year, they’re learning the skills with the mannequins, so when they come to the clinic, they’re more comfortable treating the patient.

Dentistry is advancing toward digital planning and digital manufacturing, called CAD/CAM, and we are the forefront in incorporating digital technology in our program. We have many different intraoral scanners that our students in year one and two get to use and practice, and do the restoration and develop the skills. So when they come to third year and fourth year, they use those scanners and those machines and that technology for patient treatment. They can provide all sorts of restoration: crown, inlay, onlay, implant crowns, complete denture, removable partial denture on the patients. And we use this CAD/CAM technology to guide the implant surgeries, and then our students perform the actual surgeries to place the implant on the patient. We have 3D printers; some of the laboratory steps are printed in-house. We’re trying to expose our students to the best technology out there and the best education that they can get throughout the four years.

How has COVID affected the Ostrow dental school experience and admissions process, specifically dental clinic experience and patient exposure? [7:17] COVID has affected many lives. We modified our admission process slightly, but still, we’re looking for the best for our school. We brought the virtual world to our interview process and we conduct those the same way that we did interviews in previous years, PBL style and a multi-mini-interview through Zoom. In regards to clinic and patient exposure, we have gone above and beyond. Besides what everybody is doing, social distancing, masks, and all of that, we have installed numerous HEPA filters, these massive machines that are constantly cleaning the air. We are doing weekly COVID testing for all the students and faculty and staff. Every student, faculty, or staff member in patient care has been N95 mask-fitted. We’re making sure that they’re using the proper masks. We COVID test our patients that come in for any procedure that may cause aerosol droplets. I’m happy to say we have vaccinated faculty, staff, and students. We try to provide a clean and healthy and productive environment for our faculty, staff, and students, and patients.

Ostrow is using the AADSAS application. Can you review the timeline for applications to Ostrow with the AADSAS application? [9:09] The application cycle usually opens in June and it closes February 1st, but the applicants have the option of getting some preparation ready, like a personal statement. You don’t need to wait until the application cycle opens, or you may talk to the people that you want to ask for a letter of recommendation. Have those ready, so when June comes, when the application cycle opens, you can submit it. Once they submit the application, we’ll make sure the transcript and grades are accurate and so forth, and then at that point, we start reading the applications and deciding who to invite for interviews.

We start interviews late August/September. It’s rolling admission and just continues. We try to interview as many as we can because we want to give this opportunity to as many applicants as possible so we can handpick every single one that we want to come here.

What kind of dental clinical exposure do you like to see in your applicants? Can you give a guideline? [10:31] Dental school is a big commitment, financially, time-wise, and physically. It’s really hard on your neck and your back and so forth. We want to make sure that the applicants know what they’re getting into. This is their passion. This is what they want for the rest of their life. It’s nice when they go to other offices, they shadow a dentist, they talk to the dentist, they ask them, “Why do you like dentistry? What is it that you don’t like in dentistry?” and reflect and see if this is truly what they want to do for the rest of their life.

It’s sad sometimes when you hear that students in the first semester or second semester learn that dentistry is not their passion, and then they change careers. It’s a big loss in time and money for them, and it’s a big loss for someone who could have come and flourished at dental school and become a fantastic clinician. We want to make sure that they know what they’re getting into.

Ostrow does a lot in terms of community service. Do you also like to see non-clinical or non-dental community service in your applicants? Is that important? [12:14] At Herman Ostrow, we train our students to be healthcare providers. We want them to be great clinicians, the best scholars, and the best healthcare providers for their community. We want them to be compassionate and considerate and kind-hearted, someone who goes above and beyond for their patients. So it’s very heartwarming to read an application where the applicant has done some community service. That shows compassion, and we love to see that. Like I said, we have a very extensive community outreach program that our students go through, including rotations through these underserved communities. This is the lesson that we give them, to be compassionate and reach out to those in need. We do exit interviews with our students. After graduation, we interview them and say, “Tell us what you want to tell us.” Oftentimes, this is one of the things that they mention, that this outreach program has contributed greatly not only to their professional growth, but impacted them as human beings. We provide these fantastic opportunities for them, for students, for our patients, and we would like to have an applicant who is aligned with us in that regard.

At Ostrow, you have an individual interview and then you have the multi-mini-interview. Tell us a little bit more about the interview day at Ostrow in the time of COVID. What do you intend for the next cycle, since that’s around the corner? [13:53] Because of COVID, since we could not invite them and could not do an interview day, it’s an interview week. We break it down into little pieces. We want to get to know them, and we want them to get to know us. After all, they have to choose us too. Usually on the day, I give an hour presentation. Like you mentioned, I have a very unique position because I was a dental student, I was a resident, I’m faculty, I was a course director, and I was a group practice director mentoring juniors and seniors, so I know every question that applicants ask. During that hour presentation, I’ll tell them who we are at USC and what we do and answer all the questions that they have.

At a separate time, we do MMI interviews virtually, and also we do PBL interviews over Zoom. We want to evaluate their maturity and their reasoning. Are they professional? Are they a team player? Can they communicate? All of that. We pick that up during the interview. Then, we have a fantastic school, so we want to show off our school. We have a virtual tour that applicants can go to. We have sessions where they can talk to the ambassadors to see the life of a dental student at Herman Ostrow. We introduce our student clubs and organizations. We have numerous student clubs, and we want to introduce those to them so they feel more included and engaged.

If we get to a time (hopefully not in the too-distant future) when travel becomes normal again, do you see the interviews going back to being in-person or staying virtual? [16:02] I don’t know what COVID will do tomorrow, or next month. I don’t know. But if we go back to normal, which I hope will be soon, it’s really nice to see them in person. You get eye contact and body language. It’s very cold when you talk to someone over a camera. I would love to go back to in-person interviews because it’s just more welcoming and more sweet to the applicant, and they can get to see the school and get to see the students in action in a sim lab or in a clinic, but we’ll see what the virus tells us.

Ostrow typically receives roughly 3,000 applications and matriculates 144 students. What review process does an application typically go through to get from one of 3,000 to one of 144? How on earth do you winnow it down? [17:03] We have a great pool of applicants. We have so many highly qualified applicants, and I wish we could admit them all, but we can’t unfortunately. The review process is a holistic review. We look at the applicant as a whole, both cognitively and non-cognitively. What is the course load? How many classes are they taking? How are they performing in those classes? Are they working outside? Are they doing any other activities and so forth while doing school? We want to see what kind of applicant we have. Dental school program has a very rigorous curriculum, so we want to make sure that students that are coming to dental school can handle the program. This is very different from undergrad when you have a class Monday morning and Tuesday afternoon and Thursday morning. The students are busy everyday, either with classes and seminars, PBL cases, rotation, and patient care. They have to run a few things all at the same time. And when they start treating the patient, they have to think ahead of the game. “What does my patient need two appointments from now so I can have it ready today?” They have to learn to multitask, and that requires discipline, that requires dedication, and motivation, and hard work. These are the elements that we want to learn from the application through their activities, the letter of recommendation, personal essay, grades, scores, all of that.

Is there anything that you look for in applicants today, one year into the pandemic, that maybe you didn’t look for before the pandemic, or two (or five, or 10) years ago? [18:56] We look for the best clinicians. We look for the best scholars and best educators and the best human beings overall. That’s why we want to look at each applicant in a comprehensive manner. Being great at academic work helps, but also their character, their mindset. How do they approach a problem? Are they resilient? Their maturity? That all plays an important role in our decision-making too. That’s why for the past three years, we have implemented multi-mini-interviews to assess these immeasurable qualities like empathy, professionalism, maturity, ability to work in a team, and communication, and so on.

How many stations are in your MMI? [20:06] Virtually, we had nine stations. It’s a lot!

How do you view letters of intent or update letters, either from waitlisted applicants or from applicants before they’re waitlisted, maybe after their interview or before their interview? [20:34] I know, it’s a stressful process. Trust me. I’ve been in that boat too myself. We have many highly qualified applicants that unfortunately we cannot admit, so we have to select. But we have an open door policy. If the applicants have questions, please email us. We can talk over Zoom, we can make a phone call, go over your application. We help them however we can. Sometimes we go over the application and we say, “Okay, maybe you want to improve in this area or you want to do this,” guide them to the right direction.

We interview from September on, and then it’s a rolling admission. However, the first letter of acceptance does not go out until around December 15; the previous year, it was December 1st. But after that, we send the acceptances throughout the cycle. Yes, it is a stressful process but we try to communicate with our students. As soon as we hear something, we communicate with them, and they’re in direct communication with us. We’re here to help them. But unfortunately, as far as being a stressful process, I don’t think there is a way to make it less stressful.

Let’s say they get a 4.0 in the last semester of their senior year. Would you want them to send you an email updating Ostrow? [22:04] If they completed a summer course or have a new transcript, let us know. We update it. If they do more hours, if they have been working and been doing community outreach, let us know. We add it to their application. It’s a wide open door policy.

On a forward-looking note, what advice would you give to dental school applicants thinking ahead and planning to apply this summer for 2022 matriculation, or perhaps even planning to apply later for a later matriculation? [22:40] My advice to them is to think long and hard. Is this truly your passion? Do you see yourself doing this every day, all day? Do you love it? Or, like we talked about earlier, is this something that you’re doing because somebody said so? Get involved in these dental clinics, talk to the dentist, talk to many dentists, ask questions. Make sure that this is what you really want to do. Once you confirm that your heart is in the right place, work hard, study well, prove to the admissions committee that you are capable of the course load of dental school, you are hardworking, you are dedicated, you are motivated and committed. Study hard and get good grades.

Prove to the committee members that you will be a great doctor for your community, that you’re compassionate and caring, and you’re putting others before you. Do that with the community service that’s out there. Get involved and prove it to us that you are capable of the course load of the school and you’re going to be the best clinician, the best educator, and the best scholar.

We are here to help our students, and we want them to have a great profession, be fulfilled with what they do, and their patients to be happy with them. And it’s a two-way street. We want to have a great alumni network. We have a very strong alumni network, and we want them to be always available for the community and their colleagues.

Related Links:

• The Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry’s website
• How to Get Into Dental School
• Wondering How to Land a Dental School Acceptance? Kristina Shares Her Journey to NYUCD.
• Accepted’s Dental School Admissions Consulting Services

Related Shows:

• Life as a Dental Student at UCLA
• Application Trends to Watch in 2021, and a Look Back at 2020
• Writing for Medical School: Personal Statements, Activities, and Secondaries
• Writing a Compelling Personal Statement

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The post An Inside Look at USC’s Herman Ostrow School of Dentistry [Episode 414] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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Are you considering a Master’s in Finance or MBA degree? [Show summary] Admissions veteran and Accepted consultant Dr. Christie St-John explores the latest in MBA admissions and provides insights for those applying for a master’s in finance.

Read on for must-know admissions insights! [Show notes] In May of 2020, admissions veteran Dr. Christie St-John joined Accepted as an MBA and graduate admissions consultant. Today, I’m going to speak with her about MBA admissions and about master’s in finance admissions.

Dr. St-John was a guest on our old chats as Associate Director of Admissions for Tuck. More recently, she was on Admissions Straight Talk as Director of Vanderbilt Owen’s MBA Recruiting and Admissions, and most recently as an Accepted grad school and MBA admissions consultant. Today, Dr. St. John is going to share her expertise with you and me, once again, on this podcast.

You’ve been advising applicants as a consultant for about a year now. How has your perspective on the admissions process evolved since you moved to helping applicants, as opposed to evaluating applicants? [2:37] I’m looking at their resumes and their essays much more critically because I know what is going to be said and discussed on the other end of it. While they may think they have wonderful essays that explain everything, sometimes they are too close to what they’re writing about, and the message is totally lost because they are leaving out important elements of it. That has really helped me get people on the right track to making their essays as detailed, yet still concise, as possible so that their best qualities will show up.

Let’s just talk about the resume. What are some of the more common mistakes that you see, or that you are now correcting, that you saw as an admissions director? [3:41] A lot of times the candidates would just put down a job description, and that is not what we’re looking for. We’re actually looking for results. Showing that you have initiative, that you have actually had an impact, however small, on the organization you’re working with. That’s what the admissions committees are looking for. In many, many cases, members of the career management staff will also be on the admissions committee. You can believe that’s what they’re looking for because their job is to get you a job. If you don’t have the experience or the qualifications or any sort of leverageable skills that they can help you with, they are probably going to nix your acceptance because they can’t help you. The whole point of your going to a school is to be helped to find a job. You need to be a bit more self-aware of what you know how to do, and what you don’t know how to do as well, when you’re coming up with your long and short term goals.

What about the essays? What are you looking to improve? [4:55] The first thing is to make sure they’re actually answering the question that’s asked, because that is quite often the main issue. They’re thinking, “I’ve already done it. This is similar to what I did for X school. I’m just going to cut it and paste it and put it in here for Y school.” Sometimes that might work but, for the most part, no. Each school knows what they want. It should be obvious in the question the way it’s asked. If you’re answering something totally off the mark, you get points off for that.

There’s no right or wrong answer, but there is an answer that makes sense to the question. When it says, “Tell me about your short-term goals after the MBA,” and you say, “My short-term goal is to get an MBA,” that’s not after the MBA. You need to have reasonable goals. You cannot reform the entire education system or the healthcare system of the United States, or any other country, by yourself. Have realistic goals.

Do those goals have to be a little bit ambitious too? [6:09] It’s always good. That’s another thing that admissions committees will look at. They’ll look at your transcript, not just for the grades, but to see if you took some classes that were quite challenging. Have you taken on responsibilities at work or outside of work that have challenged you and helped you grow? That’s very important. We don’t want a list of extracurricular activities just to have a long list of things. We want to see that you’ve actually been involved and invested in the organizations you’re working for.

Many applicants will soon be resigning themselves to the fact that they may need to reapply next cycle. What’s your advice for MBA reapplicants? [6:50] Sit back and look at your application with a very critical eye and find what you think is the weak part. You’re probably going to guess it. It could be that you have not expressed your goals in a realistic manner. It could be that your GMAT is just way short of the average, or it’s right at the average, and with the over abundance of applications this year, being at average just doesn’t cut it in some schools. It could be that you are talking about going into an industry that the school doesn’t do, so it’s not the right school for you. That’s one of the things that you have to be really aware of when you’re selecting your schools: if they’re going to give you what you need. Just because they’re ranked number one, two, five, 10, or whatever doesn’t mean that they’re going to be the best school for what your goals are, but there is a school out there that is right for you.

Who should take advantage of the test waivers, and who should take the test? [8:05] I was just reading an article the other day that shows that your undergraduate GPA is not necessarily the best at forecasting how you will be doing in school, but the GMAT is. If you have really high grades and you’ve gotten lots of quant classes, I don’t think a school is going to think twice about waiving your test score, or if you have an exceptionally long amount of work experience. But if you have a lower than average GPA, and you have not had any quant classes, you’re really shooting yourself in the foot if you don’t take the test because you need the extra oomph that the test will give you to be able to get in the school. If you’re below average, you’re not going to get the top schools. Even some of the lower ranked schools are picky about it because they don’t want anybody to enter the program who’s going to fail the first semester. That’s really depressing for everyone. Study, get really good test guides, and pay for test prep with someone. I recommend one of the regular test prep companies rather than a private tutor, because sometimes private tutors may not know what the GMAT really is. But study for it and try to do the best you can. If you can’t do the GMAT, then do the GRE at least. Show them that you have the ability to do the quantitative work.

How should applicants plan for the increased competition we’re experiencing this year? [10:01] It has been considerably more competitive. The number of applications has gone up from 41% to 67% or something like that. It’s about a 26% increase in applications in two out of three schools. That’s a lot. It doesn’t matter where the school is or its ranking. They’ve gotten more applications, and they’re being pickier. Again, look at your application with a very critical eye, and look at your essays. Are they really saying what you’re thinking about? Does your resume actually show what you’ve done? Do you have enough leadership or extracurricular activities to make you a well-rounded human being? Do you have instances of initiative? There are so many things to look at. If your grades are really low in quant classes, go out and sign up for something on Coursera or at your local community college. Do something to make your application improve. I remember once we had a candidate who applied four years in a row and didn’t change a thing about her application. Not the essays, not her test scores, nothing. She couldn’t understand why she wasn’t getting in.

What are some of the different kinds of master’s in finance degrees out there? [11:28] I was really surprised when I started looking into all this, because some of them are 10 months or nine months. Some of them are 18 months. There are a couple that have an internship track, and others have just an academic track, so you don’t have an internship. Others will help prepare you for the CFA, which is pretty important I think. Others, you will be sitting in on MBA classes. That’s going to give you a different network as well to speak to and a bit more of a challenge. I think that for the most part though, the MS Finance programs are really focused on theory and technical skills, as opposed to the MBA, which gives you a much larger view of business since you learn all the functional areas. MS Finance is just focused only on finance and statistical modeling and things like that.

When you’re looking at those programs, find ones that have a capstone project so that you actually apply what you’re learning. This is always good to put on your resume to convince an employer, “I’ve done this. I know how to do this.” If you want to take the CFA, make sure your program is affiliated with the CFA so that it’s preparing you to do that.

What careers do master’s in finance holders typically pursue? [12:52] Anything from investment banking to financial analysts. They’ll start out as financial planners, some of them will go into the stock trading area, commodities trading, corporate finance, obviously. They’re not going to start out on the same level as an MBA, but they will catch up pretty fast. The difference is that the master’s in finance programs, of course, do not always require work experience. The schools would like for you to have a couple of internships, at least, but it is not required. Whereas with an MBA, you do need work experience.

What do you think applicants should look at when they’re researching master’s in finance programs? [13:46] That’s what I tell all my clients: I say, the first thing you need to do is look at the career report. How many people are getting jobs and where are they going? Because that’s in there. And if you don’t see the companies that you’re interested in on that report, there’s probably a reason. They don’t recruit there. Then after that, go look at the curriculum. What exactly are they doing in the curriculum? And then go start looking at other schools. Because you will be terribly frustrated (if you pick the wrong school). What’s sad is that the students will end up taking it out on the career management office, saying “They didn’t find me a job.” The career people really try very, very hard. If you end up in a school that doesn’t do what you think you want to do, the career people will, if they are ethical (and they all are as far as I know), try to make you see the reality of life. That you cannot just step into a VC job or a PE job if you have no finance experience at all. It’s just not going to happen. They will try to help you make parallel movements so that you will eventually get there. They will be the first thing you have coming out. That’s why they’re good at what they do.

What kind of academic background should someone seeking their master’s in finance have? [15:30] I’ve been looking at the requirements for a lot of different programs this year. If you’ve never seen accounting, if you’ve never taken statistics or even Algebra II, you’re going to have a really rough time. You need to get at least that accounting class, statistics class, Excel. You need to know Excel and Algebra II minimum to be able to pass finance classes. There are a lot of free courses online. I would suggest hopping on a Coursera class and learning about Python. More and more schools are wanting to know if you’ve got these technical skills: Tableau, and Python, and Sequel, and SAS, and SP. But if you can do those on your own, or if you’re still in school and you can take those at school, do it. They will enhance your resume for certain. You’ll also be able to get through your work a lot quicker if you know how to do it.

What about work experience outside the classroom? What are most master’s in finance programs looking for? [16:39] Most of them are designed for candidates coming right out of undergrad. Again, they would like for you to have a couple of internships so that you’ve at least worked in an office atmosphere and know what finance really means. Most programs do treks or have companies visit, and they will go over the different jobs that they’re looking for, so you get a better idea of it. But if you’ve actually worked, even if it’s only for a couple of months, it gives you a leg up in the recruiting process, as well as understanding why you’re studying one particular thing in a class.

You mentioned that one of the distinctions between the MBA and the MIF is that for the MBA, you are expected to have significant work experience, for the master’s in finance, you’re not. Also, the MBA is a broader degree, where you’re exploring multiple areas of business functions. A master’s in finance is strictly finance. Are there any other significant differences? [17:30] Not that I can think of. The salaries coming out will be slightly different. They’ll be higher for the MBAs than the MSFs. But at the same time, for any graduate business degree, an article I just read showed that it was about a 75% increase from what someone with an undergrad degree coming in the same job would have.

Every so often we come across somebody who did the MIF and then they decided they still wanted the MBA. Do you think that’s justified or a good idea? [18:23] I’ve long been a proponent of the MBA. I think it’s the best degree that anyone can have. But I know at Vanderbilt, if you went through the MSF program there, then you could come back in about a couple of years, once you got some work experience, and it would only take you three semesters to complete the MBA program rather than two years because you’d get credit for all the undergrad programs. But generally that will only happen if you are attending the MBA at the same school you did the MSF. It’s possible that they might give you some credit for classes, but most MBA programs do not accept transfer credit.

What do you wish I would’ve asked you? [19:33] Are all the different specialized master’s degrees cannibalizing the MBA? In a sense they are. But in another sense, I know that the current generation wants to get through school and get out in the workplace as fast as they can. A lot of them don’t see the need for going and getting work experience first. “I’m ready to do this now, let me in!” The specialized master’s degrees give them that. A lot of times they are seriously only interested in doing data analytics, or finance, or marketing. They don’t really care about the rest of it. Why shouldn’t they have that option? The MBA will always be there, but I think it’s going to be a little bit different. We may see people coming into the MBA classroom who have specialized master’s degrees, and they’re going to give the people coming in without that a run for their money. It might be a little more competitive.

Related links:

• Accepted’s Master’s in Finance Tips, a collection of blog posts for MFin applicants
• A Glimpse into the MIT MFin Experience of an International Student, an interview with a Master’s in Finance student

Related shows:

• Application Trends to Watch in 2021, and a Look Back at 2020
• Is an MBA Worth It, or Is the Sky Falling Down on the MBA Degree?
• An Insider’s Look at MBA Admissions
• Why These GMAT Experts Approach Test-Taking With Empathy
• MIT Sloan Master in Finance: How to Get In!
• NYU Stern’s New Online Masters in Quantitative Management
• The Berkeley MFE: One Tough Program with Amazing Opportunities for Grads

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The post What It’s Like to Apply for a Master’s in Finance or MBA in 2021 [Episode 413] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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Ellisa’s non-traditional path to dentistry [Show summary] Ellisa Soberon, a dental student at UCLA with a nontraditional path to dentistry, shares her insights on the dental school admissions process and life at UCLA.

What makes UCLA School of Dentistry unique… and the perfect fit for this dental student! [Show notes] So, you want to go to dental school? Let’s hear from a UCLA dental student how she got in and how she likes it.

Our guest today, Ellisa Soberon, is a first-year dental student at UCLA Dental School. In 2014, Ellisa earned her bachelor’s from UCLA in environmental science with a minor in geography and environmental studies. She worked mostly in business between completing her undergraduate education and starting dental school.

Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and where you grew up? [1:48] I grew up in a small town in Northern California called Alamo, about 40 minutes away from San Francisco. I grew up as an only child to two Asian-American immigrants, one from South Korea, my mom, and my dad, who came from the Philippines. I grew up as the only Asian-American in a predominantly white neighborhood. It was a great experience, honestly. I worked really hard in high school and was always an inquisitive person, and always had a love for the sciences. That carried over when I went to UCLA.

It was interesting growing up with two unique cultures that are very different. I didn’t really know many other people who had that unique blend of different cultures growing up. Our Thanksgiving dinners were always really interesting. We always had Korean dishes, Filipino dishes, and American, and I feel like I was really lucky to have all three growing up.

As an undergrad, you majored in environmental science and then worked in business. How did you move from those pursuits to dentistry? They seem pretty far apart. [4:19] I’ve always had a love for sciences. I really struggled in undergrad figuring out what I wanted to major in. I was undeclared for two years, and finally my counselor looked at me and said, “Hey you’re approaching your junior year and you need to declare a major.” My roommate was actually an environmental science major. I had not even given that major a thought. I thought that the classes that she was taking were super interesting, and I still had a love for science. So I thought, you know what, I’m just going to go for environmental science. And I’m glad I did. I honestly learned a lot with that major, and it’s incredibly relevant today.

But in all honesty, I ended up choosing a career in technology and business right after graduation, purely because I needed a career. I needed a job after I graduated. So I stuck with that for about four and a half years before I thought, well, is this something that I really want to do for the rest of my career? I thought about it. I had what I like to call my quarter-life crisis, where I went around asking people, “How did you decide that you wanted to become X, Y, or Z?” And through talking to a lot of different people, I had a very honest conversation with myself and thought, I still want to go back to my roots which is the sciences. I ended up talking to my own dentist, and he described everything that he did on a day-to-day basis. And it sounded really interesting, so I decided, you know what? I’m going to give this a try. I’m going to shadow a dentist and see if this is something that I want to pursue. And that’s how it started.

Did you explore dentistry further, in other clinical settings? [6:23] I definitely shadowed a general dentist in my area. I also volunteered with a mobile dental clinic and got a lot of exposure that way. I shadowed a variety of dentists through that mobile clinic. So I felt like I had a good idea of what it was like through volunteer work and also owning a private practice, which I think is really important when it comes to dentistry. A lot of dentists don’t have that business background, but I’m hoping to really learn as much as I can now so that when the time comes and I graduate, I at least have a little bit more business background under my belt, so I can open up my own practice one day.

Did you have to take prerequisites after you decided you wanted to go to dental school? Did you have to take additional classes? [7:24] I definitely did. I was lucky because I had most of my prerequisites taken care of through my environmental science degree, but I was missing a handful of classes and decided that I needed to do an informal postbac to get some of those classes taken care of. I also took a few classes that weren’t necessarily requirements, but I felt like taking some more challenging upper-division science classes would really help boost my resume and prove to admissions that I could really handle a graduate-level course load.

This is while you were working full-time, or were you working part-time at that point? [8:07] I was lucky because I had saved up enough, and I ended up quitting my job when I decided I wanted to go into dentistry. I focused on schoolwork and my application 100% and was lucky enough to be able to do that for about two years.

What were some of the concerns you had as a nontraditional dental school applicant when you decided to apply to dental school? [8:31] I think my number one concern was my age. I’m a little bit older. I graduated UCLA in 2014. So if you do the math, that makes me 29 years old today. But when I decided that I wanted to go into dentistry, I was 26 years old. That might not seem that much older than the average applicant, but it was a concern because it had been a while since I had taken a class in college or even studied for an exam. I was a little concerned about whether I’d be able to handle it. Luckily, the classes that I took for my pre-reqs gave me an idea of what I could handle. That was my biggest concern. Just being able to study for exams, things like that. And honestly, I can say now after a couple of quarters at UCLA dental, I feel like age is not even a concern anymore. It definitely was in the beginning, but I really had nothing to worry about.

What was the hardest part of the application process for you? [9:57] Looking back, I gave myself a shorter timeline. Ideally, I think it would have been a lot easier if I had done everything within two years: taking my pre-req classes, studying for the DAT, and also applying. But I was determined, maybe partially due to my age, to get everything done in one year. Balancing everything and also shadowing and volunteer work, doing everything all at once in one year, was a bit challenging for me, but I’m glad that I did it. I was able to do it and it wasn’t impossible. The pressure that I put on myself to get everything done in one year! Obviously, if things didn’t work out, if I had scored lower on the DAT or perhaps I didn’t get in that year, I could definitely apply the next year. So that wasn’t a big deal, but I was determined to get everything done within one year. It was definitely the pressure I put on myself. And I did it!

READ: How to Get Into Dental School >>

How many schools did you apply to, and how many did you interview at? [11:20] I applied to 12 schools, and I ultimately had interviews at five. I was really lucky. I would say I applied a little late, though. I was really surprised that I had as many interviews that I did, but I ended up only attending three of the five interviews. I was lucky that I got into UCLA.

When you got that acceptance from UCLA, how did you feel? How did you celebrate? [11:53] Oh, I cried. I immediately called my family because it was not just me that was going through it. It was also my parents. They were behind me 100%. And to let them know that I had gotten into UCLA, they were incredibly relieved and extremely excited for me. They were the first people that I told. I definitely went to a dinner and just enjoyed it, reveled in the moment. It was great.

Now that you’re at UCLA Dental, what do you like best about being there? [12:36] I think the most striking thing about UCLA is that it is such a collaborative environment. In all honesty, I didn’t expect that coming in because everyone is Type A and competitive. I thought everyone was going to be focusing on themselves. I was a little used to that from UCLA undergrad. You’re one of 200 or 300 students in a class, and it was very competitive, especially for anyone who is in the premed or prehealth track. So coming to UCLA dental, when you’re in a class of 88 students, it was a breath of fresh air.

I think what contributed to that is the pass/no pass system that we have. The grading system at UCLA is a little unique. Instead of people competing for that top grade, everyone is really helpful or trying to help you out. Professors want to make sure that you succeed. I am just so thankful that I’m in an environment like that, especially during the next four years, which are supposedly going to be the toughest four years of my life. The collaborative environment is top-notch here at UCLA.

What could be improved? [14:00] That’s a really difficult question. It’s hard to say, especially now during this pandemic. About half of our classes are online, and everything else, all the clinic / pre-clinic work that we’re doing, we’re lucky that we can be in-person, with PPE, of course, and all the precautions. This is not so much something that UCLA can do, but I wish that I could get to know some of my classmates a little bit better. That is an important part of it, the social aspect, networking, getting to know people face-to-face. So while I am interacting with my classmates in pre-clinic, it’s not quite the same. I do wish that we had a few more opportunities to really get to know one another.

The first year of medical school is famous for being like “drinking from a fire hydrant.” Did you feel that way about dental school? [15:16] Certain classes, I felt, were pretty challenging. Not in that the content was challenging, but just the sheer amount of information that we’re given that we need to know. Again, I would have to say with the pass/no pass, I didn’t stress about it too much just because there are other opportunities for me to get involved and other things that I’m interested in.

For instance, I’m thinking about starting my own club at UCLA. I actually wanted to start a Filipino club because there isn’t one, surprisingly. UCLA and the LA area in general has a large Filipino population. So during the club fair, I went and I saw all these different cultures being represented, but there wasn’t one for Filipinos. So because I’m half Filipino, I thought, you know what? I think this would be an awesome opportunity to start a club like this. So that’s in the works.

So yes, in a sense it was a bit challenging because there was just so much information thrown my way, but I also wasn’t as stressed because I felt like with the pass/no pass system, I need a 70%. A 70% is a passing, same as a 90% or 95%. I really am focusing on the things that I care about and that will help make me a better clinician in the future. I have more time to focus on those things as well. Yes, it is a little overwhelming, to answer your question, but I feel like you get used to it.

How do you see your career developing? You mentioned that you’d like to have your own practice at some point. Do you have any direction within dentistry, as a general dentist or going into a specialty? [17:08] I went in with an open mind. I thought that endodontics and orthodontics sounded really interesting. We’ve had a lot of lunch-and-learns with people in their own specialties, and it’s been a real eye-opener learning from them and getting an idea of what it takes to become a specialist. Also, UCLA is awesome because they offer all specialties. So if there’s one that I’m particularly interested in, I can go out and shadow that specialty and get a better idea. But right now, I feel like it’s still a little too early for me to know. I’m leaning a little bit towards general dentistry because I feel like it encompasses the best of everything, but I’m not completely opposed to specializing. I might decide in the next year or so after I’ve had a little bit more exposure to those specialties, but definitely I will open my own practice at one point. That is a big goal of mine. Specialty-wise I don’t know, but definitely my own practice at some point.

Do you have any bits of wisdom or advice for pre-dental students, whether they are traditional or non-traditional? [18:32] I would say, stay focused, believe in yourself, and don’t be afraid to ask for help. I felt a little overwhelmed in the beginning because I didn’t really know any other pre-dental students. I’d already graduated at that point and didn’t really have a counselor to turn to. But I would say that as long as you stay focused on your goal and persevere, you will get through anything. And also try to stay as organized as you can. And apply as early as you can. I applied about late July, and while that’s not the latest that you can apply, it definitely was not ideal. Definitely apply as early as you can and ask for help in terms of help studying for the DAT. Have someone look over your application several times.

If you need help with your personal statement, don’t be afraid to ask for that help because it takes a village to apply to dental school. If you’re looking for someone to look over your application, or if you just need any advice at all about classes that you need to take, I would definitely turn to Accepted and look for an advisor. I spoke with Barry and worked with him for about a year and a half. And he was an incredible help when it came to my application and applying to dental school. He was there every step of the way, answering all my questions. I honestly don’t know if I could have done it without him. Although I was the one applying to dental school, he really gave me the guidance and the knowledge that I needed to be able to stand out as a competitive applicant in the cycle that I applied. So look for Barry if you want any dental advice!

What do you wish I would have asked you? [20:48] Anything about the application process. There isn’t as much information about dental school. I feel like there’s a lot of emphasis and focus on medical school. So if you ever have any questions about the application process, don’t be afraid to maybe find another dental student online or on Instagram, maybe someone that you follow, and message them and ask them about what they did to get into their school. If you’re interested in that school, usually the best person to ask is someone who’s already attending that school. That’s something that I did, and I felt like it was tremendously helpful, not just for the application, but also the interview process.

That’s another thing: the interview. I felt like I was somewhat prepared because I was used to interviewing through job applications and things like that. But the interview can be either really stressful, you can make it stressful, or you can go in with the attitude of, “I can get through this, and they really just want to get to know me and if I’m a good fit for their school.”

You just said something really great for interviewees to keep in mind: That it’s a conversation. They’re trying to get to know you. They want to know if you’re a fit for their school. How would you recommend somebody prepare for an interview? [21:59] I wouldn’t say to look up the top 20 questions and have all of your answers memorized. You don’t want to seem like a robot when you go into your interview. Obviously, you want to prepare a little bit. Come up with an idea of how you’re going to answer the top 10 most common questions, like “Tell me a little bit about yourself” or “What have you been doing the last couple of years?” Things like that. Get to know the school, have all of that down, and also have questions prepared for each school. As long as you go in prepared and confident, then I feel like most people will do well. Try to be yourself as much as possible. Most interviewers can tell when you’re giving a response that’s been memorized, so try to be yourself as much as possible.

Any sites you’d like to invite listeners to visit? [23:13] For anyone on Instagram, I would definitely recommend going to the UCLA pre-dental page which is full of information for anyone who’s a pre-dent, whether or not you’re interested in applying to UCLA. That’s @UCLA_asda_predental. Or you can follow me on Instagram and check out my stories, where I sometimes post dental-related things. My handle is @EllisaHannah.

Related Links:

• UCLA School of Dentistry’s website
• How to Get Into Dental School
• Wondering How to Land a Dental School Acceptance? Kristina Shares Her Journey to NYUCD.
• Accepted’s dental school admissions consulting services

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• Is a Postbac Program Right for You?
• Application Trends to Watch in 2021, and a Look Back at 2020
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The post Life as a Dental Student at UCLA [Episode 412] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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Thanks for joining me for the 411th episode of Admissions Straight Talk.

I am taking a week off for family time this week. As a result I decided to air an encore of our most popular podcast so far in 2021. It actually is a solo podcast that I did for our 400th episode back in January entitled Application Trends to Watch in 2021, and a Look Back at 2020.

As one application cycle winds down to a close and the next one starts up, It’s a good time to review some of the points I raised in that episode. I discussed:

1. the application surge at graduate schools in many different fields and how to respond to it.
2. The increasing availability of test optional programs and test waivers at programs that still require aptitude tests.
3. Reflections as we move forward, hopefully away from the 2020 pandemic.

For the MBA wannabes among you, especially if you are concerned about your GPA and test score, I’ve got a masterclass for you! I’m presenting Get Accepted to Top MBA Programs with Low Stats on Wednesday April 7, and you’re invited. You can accept this invitation at accepted.com/411MBA and reserve your seat today! It’s free.

I assume that many of you are also taking a spring break right now be it for a day or two or a whole week or more. I hope you get to spend it with loved ones. Have a wonderful time and thanks for listening to the encore of Application Trends to Watch in 2021, and a Look Back at 2020.

For the complete show notes, check out the original blog post.

Related Links:

• Get Accepted to Top MBA Programs with Low Stats
• Get Accepted to Medical School During an Application Surge
• Test-Optional MBA Programs: Everything You Need to Know in 2021
• Entering Law School Gets More Challenging as Number of Top Applicants Skyrockets
• How to Answer Med School Questions about COVID-19 and Other Major Events of 2020 [Video]
• Accepted Admissions Consulting Services
• MBA Application Timeline: How to Get Accepted in 2021
• The 11th Grade College Planning Timeline That You Need to Get Accepted

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• How to Address COVID-19 and the Events of 2020 in Your Application
• Applying to Med School During COVID-19
• Expert Advice for Applicants and an Inside Look at UCLA Anderson from an Intl MBA
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The post Encore: Application Trends to Watch in 2021, and a Look Back at 2020 [Episode 411] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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Are you considering a PhD, either in the United States or abroad? [Show summary] Dr. Eva Lantsoght, a professor of civil engineering who has lived and studied all over the globe, shares her insights on applying to PhD programs in STEM fields.

What to expect when applying to domestic and international PhD programs. [Show notes] Would you like to attend a US or UK master’s or PhD program in a STEM field? Are you concerned about the process of both applying to and completing the degree?

Dr. Eva Lantsoght is a citizen of the world, professor of civil engineering, blogger, and podcast host. Dr. Lantsoght was born in Belgium and earned her bachelor’s in civil engineering in Brussels and her master’s in structural engineering at Georgia Tech, with a full ride scholarship and a scholarship from the Belgian-American Educational Foundation. She earned her PhD at TU Delft, where she has been a researcher since earning her PhD in 2013 and recently received tenure. Since 2013 she has also been an assistant professor at USFQ in Quito, Ecuador, where she also has tenure.

Officially, you’re a professor of civil engineering with a focus on concrete. However, you’ve been blogging and podcasting about something not so “concrete”: how to get into and complete PhD programs. How did you get interested in this process? [2:14] I started blogging in the first year of my PhD, and at that time, it was just documenting my experience in the laboratory. I wanted a place where I could write about what didn’t work in the lab or the processes behind what we do in the lab, like how to keep lab notes, how to organize all that information, things that don’t get into a journal publication. So I started to use my blog as a space for documenting those things. As I progressed through my career, I started to write about other topics related to PhD research and PhD education, and then came questions from students thinking about doing a PhD. “What is it like? What should I consider? How do I select a school? How do I select an advisor? What is different about a PhD in the Netherlands versus the United States?” I started to write about all of these topics.

I think there’s a lot of information out there, but I found that, especially in my niche of engineering and civil engineering, there may not be that many professor bloggers or PhD student bloggers out there. I stepped up to the lack that was there and started to address those. From those questions came my interest in looking at what PhD programs are like at different universities and why there are these differences and how that then impacts the career of researchers after going through a more research-oriented or more a coursework-and-research-oriented PhD program.

What is the typical process for earning a PhD in a STEM field? [4:24] It also really depends on the country, but mostly I’ve worked in the Netherlands. What I see is that typically, if it’s full-time, it will be a three- to four-year endeavor. If you do it part-time, of course, it takes at least five years. There will always be a time of reading, familiarizing yourself with the literature, defining what is really going to be your research question, the topic that you really want to address. And from that comes the methods that you will apply, and in a STEM field, that typically has either a theoretical component or an experimental component, or that experimental component can be physically in the lab, or it can be numerical experiments. That requires a large amount of time on either bench work or computer simulation work, or a deep theoretical analysis. And from there comes interacting with the data, wrapping up everything, getting back to your research question, and then writing the dissertation and defending at the end.

What if a PhD student has a hypothesis, and the test shows that the hypothesis is false? [5:31] I do a lot of experimental work, so I am very well aware of all the surprises one can get in the lab. There’s a lot of things that can happen. It could be that your experimental design is not correct, that you are finding something different there, or that you are measuring the incorrect quantity to address your research question, or you can be finding something completely new, and everything we’ve known before cannot be extrapolated to this particular case. It is very common, and it’s important then to figure out for a PhD student, what’s really the reason for this finding? That can be very difficult, but you go through the basics first, the experimental design, the set of parameters that you use, all of that, and from there ask, “Oh, did I really find something that nobody else found before?”

That’s really exciting. So I wouldn’t get too disheartened. I understand that if something unexpected happens in the lab, it can be shocking. You’re like, “I’ve done all this reading. I think I know what’s going to happen.” And something completely different happens. It still happens in my field and my experiments. Sometimes different failure mechanisms occur, for example. Then, I get excited because then you’re finding something new. But I do understand that if you’re just starting to do experimental research, you may be like, “What happens here? Maybe everything I’ve been doing was wrong.” In short, I would say, cover your bases, make sure that the experiment is properly designed. And from there, see if you are finding something new and then link it back to theory.

Let’s say I’m an undergrad and I know I want to get a PhD in a specific field. Do I have to get a master’s first? And if so, should I get a master’s that requires research and a thesis? Or should I try and take classes as an undergrad that require research and go directly to a PhD? How would you advise an undergrad? [8:02] The short answer to that is: It depends. If I hear that a student has identified a topic, that probably will mean a university and a professor to work with as well. In that case, it would really depend on the requirements of that university. If you can enroll in a master’s that then immediately continues into a PhD, then that may be the right way to go. If you’re already interested in research, I would say, start doing research as an undergraduate with a professor at your undergraduate institution and talk with them on what they recommend. They may say, if you aim for that university, perhaps it would be good to go do a master’s somewhere else, get a particular experience that they may not have there, and then have a larger chance of being an excellent contributor where you want to go do your PhD.

What is the typical application process for a PhD applicant? [9:35] That also really depends on the university and the country, and in the United States, it is a very standardized process. Whereas in the Netherlands, the way I got into my PhD program was by cold emailing a professor and saying, “I saw this on the website and I’m interested.” That’s really the only professor I emailed for a PhD position. He didn’t answer for a month, and then he answered and said, “Oh yeah, we are actually still looking for one PhD student. Send your CV, and we will talk.” I know that I’m very lucky there because I get cold emails from applicants pretty much every day now, and I get so overwhelmed with emails that I can’t even politely decline. I’m very sorry to say that, but I just delete most of them, unfortunately, and I guess that’s what most people do. For us, when we have a project, that project is funded, and then we start to look for the person.

In some cases, these positions get advertised on the website, the vacancies at the university, but in some cases, especially when we are on tight schedules for funding, we will either just ask some of our recent master’s students if they are interested or reach out to colleagues saying, “Hey, do you have a student who just did a master’s in the lab and would be willing to continue?” Or we share it within our own networks. That’s the time when a cold email would land very well. But of course that’s a lottery.

In the US, I think applying for a PhD is a much more formalized process. Am I correct? [11:23] I did my master’s at Georgia Tech. I went through the whole procedure of applying to universities there, as well as applying for the Fulbright and the Belgian American Educational Foundation. Those are very standardized processes where you take standardized tests such as the TOEFL, and in my case the GRE. In other fields, that would be the GMAT. You put together your application package with your letters of recommendations from your professors with your statement of purpose and your autobiographical essay. It is a much more standardized process, especially for foreign students. I was in Belgium at the time where these types of applications do not exist. For me, it was a bit of a learning curve on how to write those essays. But once I got the hang of it, then I knew it was the same for all the schools, so I could pretty much process them all together.

How important is the fit with your advisor? [12:45] It depends. For a master’s program, especially if you’re going to do coursework with perhaps a thesis or the first semester, it will be fully coursework. Then you may still have a very vague idea of what your research would be like. Of course, identifying the people that are important to work with and having some direction is helpful. But at the PhD level, it becomes much more important, and knowing for yourself as well if you want to work with an assistant professor who may have less resources, but may have much more drive to publish and get tenure and all that, or to land in an established lab where you may be with other PhD students, have more resources, but where your supervisor may be much more hands-off. Seeing somebody’s career level and what would fit you and your learning style is quite important there.

I see applicants questioning the role of the university’s reputation and brand versus some specific strength, usually a specific professor’s strength in your particular area of interest. Are you better off going to a less well-known university that has a professor studying exactly what you’re interested in and want to pursue? What kind of advice do you have on that? [13:55] It really depends on how you as a student work. If you are self-directed and you are fine with very limited supervision and you think, “Oh, if I go to Harvard and I get those resources, I will talk to the postdocs and the other PhD students and find my way around,” then that would be a great opportunity. If, on the other hand, you say, “I really want to be somebody’s apprentice, and I want to be side by side, and I want to learn as much as possible on this particular topic,” then go to the perhaps lesser known university where you could be having a much closer working relationship. Later in your career, that very close working relationship can also help you, because if you go somewhere where your supervisor does not have that many PhD candidates, eventually when he or she steps down from any service position or editorial board thing, you may be the person that they will recommend. Whereas if you are one in many, then it’s harder to be the one that stands out.

How important is international exposure when pursuing a career in academia? Do PhD programs like to see applicants who’ve lived in multiple countries or studied, like you, in the Netherlands, South America, and in the United States? [15:39] For me, that was the right decision, but I also understand that may not be right for everybody personally. Any international exposure is good to shake up your thoughts. Not just working in a different working environment, but seeing a different school of thought helps you to be able to see a problem from different angles. That is really something that I have appreciated from going through different countries and seeing different ways that engineering is being taught. Belgium is very mathematical. Every engineering problem would be written out as a differential equation or something like that. We see things very mathematically, whereas in the United States, engineering is very hands-on, very practical. And then in the Netherlands, it is also more practical, but then very entrepreneurial as well.

I’ve appreciated those different angles in being in these different places and learning from that. But I also understand that there’s many family situations and personal situations where that may not be the right decision, and that committing to a full study abroad may not be the right thing for you, but there’s always opportunities to go for a short-term. You could always spend a shorter amount of time abroad. Especially for PhD students who may already have some work experience and already have a family and their house, it’s not the right time and season in their life to move to another and shake everything up. Still, if they have the opportunity to go for six weeks to another lab, that would still be very enrichening. I wouldn’t write it off completely, but I would see what would be a right fit for the right person.

What do you think would surprise international applicants applying to US MS or PhD programs? [18:10] What surprised me was the level of standardization. As I mentioned before, in Belgium and in the Netherlands, things are much more haphazard, especially at the PhD level. When I did my first masters in Belgium, it flowed directly from the bachelor’s. There were no cuts in between and no application process. The level of standardization was something that surprised me. I hadn’t done standardized testing in I don’t know how long, so I had to get used to it again. I have my own ideas about that, but it’s one of the things that’s part of it, so you’ve got to practice for it and do your best and rise to the occasion.

I was also surprised to see the difference between the schools. I was looking for a master’s in structural engineering at the time, and I was interested in concrete structures, but of course, every university has its own special sauce. They have their own research that they do. I was coming from a small country, where we didn’t even have a concrete professor at the University of Brussels. He was from another university. Seeing that there’s so many people working on the topic in a large country, like the United States, was for me a big surprise.

Sometimes internationals struggle with the fact that US programs demand more than just your test scores and your grades. The concept of other qualities being sought by graduate school feels foreign to them. Did you have the same experience? [19:43] I’ve always been a little bit of an odd duck, so for me, I think it was one of my strengths. I’ve always been very active as a musician as well. That’s something that I wrote in my autobiographical essay. When I went to interview for my BAEF (Belgian American Educational Foundation) scholarship, one of the jury members said, “Oh yeah, you’re that engineer musician, right?” So I knew at the time that’s the thing that stuck with them. That’s also something that now I tell my students when they apply to go do their master’s in the United States: “Your scores are excellent. Your GPA is great. You are going to be at the same level as all the other 3.8, 3.9 GPA students from all the rest of the world. So show them who you are, what makes you, you, what makes you unique.” I think that is really what a professor looks for as well. You’re still working with another human being.

What would surprise somebody applying, let’s say, to a UK program or a South American program? [21:37] When it comes to the UK, it’s very different from continental Europe. We need to acknowledge that as well. There is a very large difference in the nature of the PhD, as well as in its defense. I’m currently working on a book on the topic of the PhD defense, and the Viva from the United Kingdom is very different from the defense in different parts of the world. There are variations of the Viva in the United Kingdom, but typically it will be a closed examination. For your defense in the Netherlands, for example, you can bring your friends and family, and in the United States you can bring your friends and family. There may be a part where you’re just alone with the committee, but your presentation is open to everybody.

In the United Kingdom this is going to be closed. You typically have an external and internal examiner. In the traditional Viva, you are in a room, closed off with just these two people that grill you and then give a recommendation on your defense, for the Viva as well as your PhD thesis. In the Netherlands, you have a committee of a lot of people which will include your promoter or supervisor as well. There are variations in the UK where the supervisor can be in the room to take notes, but not ask questions. In some cases there will be a chair of the department as well to make sure everything follows the rules, but traditionally, it’s just an internal and external examiner in a closed room with the PhD candidate. That can be a very difficult exam to pass. In the Netherlands, for example, we have these committees of eight people.

It’s very ceremonial, the defense. There’s what’s called the beadle. That is a person who has a ceremonial role in university. They have full regalia and a very long stick. They come in with the committee, then they go back, and after exactly one hour, they come in and they tap the floor with a stick and say, “Hora est (it is the hour),” and then you’re supposed to end the defense. So it’s very, very ceremonial, caps and gowns and everything. Standard sentences to address the PhD candidate. There’s very, very strict protocol. There’s only one room in the university that can be used for the defense. So it’s very, very ceremonial, very medieval, almost. It’s a very different atmosphere. Even though it’s still a defense, you still get grilled, you’re still nervous. It also has that very ceremonial and celebratory aspect to it, with the caps and gowns.

Is the outcome for sure that you’re going to get the PhD? Is the defense more of a ritual than a reality? [24:39] Yes, you get the degree at the end of that. After that hour, the committee will sign, and then you get your degree. It really is the commencement and defense all rolled together. The months before, the going back and forth with the committee, is really the time to get the thesis up to speed.

We mentioned how the US schools in particular were interested in the fact that you love music, but are there non-scientific skills that you need to succeed in a PhD program and in academia? [25:23] I think these are very important. People tend to say that your publications are the currency of your academic career. In order to get to the point of getting your work publishable, you will need to be able to write in a clear manner and make good figures and present visual information in a clear way. These are things that typically are not thought of in engineering school. Those are very important skills. If somebody has never had a course like that, you can still, when you are in graduate school, hone those skills. I had the chance of taking a course on writing and presenting during my master’s at Georgia Tech, and I still credit that course with a lot of what came afterwards as successes in my career, because in that class, I really learned how to write clearly and how to present formulas and complex mathematical elements in a clear way that the audience could follow. Those are such important skills.

What are your top tips for getting funding for PhDs? [26:44] It depends on the program. For example, if you go to the Netherlands, you may be hired on a funded project, and that is different from going somewhere with funding, either from your home country, an institution, such as a Fulbright, or getting an excellent scholarship, or any of these opportunities. If I am an engineer interested in concrete, and I’m up against somebody who is going to work on cancer research or baby hearts, as I often say, maybe my research will be less attractive to a committee, because concrete is gray and boring. But there is always a value to society to what you do. In my case, concrete is the second most used material in the world after water. The possibility of impact there is very large. Just look around and try to think away everything that is concrete, and not much would be left standing. It’s still important. Finding the thing that connects to people and connects to funding bodies and committees by showing beyond your mathematical model and your experiment, trying to explain why it’s relevant and how you contribute to learning in the world, is what’s going to help a lot with getting funding.

How do you combine your academic career and parenting since your daughter was born? [29:29] Since part of my work is also in the Netherlands and requires a lot of traveling, it took me a bit of learning. First I thought, I’ll just go in the summer and get my research done and then pick up being Mom again. That’s what I thought before having my daughter. I did that one summer and it was pretty miserable. That’s when I said, well, I guess I cannot switch off being Mom. And then the next summer that I went to the Netherlands, I just made sure I had arranged childcare in the Netherlands and took her along with me. I had a bit of fear of going with a toddler and being on my own with her for six weeks and in a tiny apartment and how that all would work out. But then, I was much happier having her around and sharing some of Europe with her and taking her to see my family.

What I’m getting at here is your identity changes as you become a parent. You cannot think like I thought, that I would just flip off being a mom and go work for six weeks and then flip on again. That’s impossible, and I didn’t know that. Any idea that I had of how I would combine career and motherhood before having my daughter, things turned out different. The important thing is finding what works for you. That comes back to my answer of, “It depends.” Find what works for you. That may mean finding very good childcare that you can rely on, knowing when it’s time to lean into work and when it’s time to lean out to work, knowing when it’s time to be there for your child. That’s still the most important thing in life. Work can wait for a moment. Let things rest when they need to rest and go with the ebb and flow has been what I’ve been learning these years. It has brought so much extra value to my life to have my daughter and to see her grow.

And as a teacher, it inspires me to see how she learns. It inspires me to see how she sees the world and how she sees things. It makes me think of my students; for them, what I teach is all new as well. It has changed me as a teacher and it also has added a level of purpose to my work. I’ve always had the feeling that the research that I do is for that contribution to society that I mentioned before, making sure that our bridges are safe and thinking about a way that we can keep using concrete or concrete-like materials in a future where we may not be wanting to use so much cement because of the amount of CO2 production that’s related to the cement production. It adds a level of purpose to what I’m doing, knowing that my research is going to contribute to a better world for when she grows up.

What would you have liked me to ask you? [33:02] For students in Ecuador, what would be good advice for applying, and where they should apply to go to graduate school? Why should they go to graduate school? From the perspective of having started in Ecuador, what would be something that would surprise them when they apply to a graduate program?

I’ve helped a lot of my bachelor thesis students apply to graduate school in both the United States as well as in Europe. One of the things that’s been important for them is to know that even though they are from a small country, they still have a chance. We now have a master’s of engineering program in the university where I teach. We have a masters of engineering structures, but for somebody who really wants to go into any of the other fields of civil engineering, we’re very limited in what is available in Ecuador. It’s considered, “This is as much as I can learn because that’s what’s available here.” I’ve been challenging my students in trying to break that thought pattern. When I applied at University of Brussels, that’s a small school as well. Not many people know that school. While of course I’m privileged having grown up in Europe and all that, but any good student can go on to the university where they want to study. The first thing to do there is the work of really believing in yourself. I’ve had students with excellent GPAs ask me, “Do you think I would be good enough for that school?” And I just want to tell them, “Yes, of course you are.” That’s the most important: to believe in yourself and go for your dreams.

In addition to that, I’m always very impressed by the work ethic of my students here in Ecuador. They are hardworking. I look back at myself when I was a student. I sometimes think like I was so lazy compared to them; they work so hard. I hope for more faculty in programs in the United States and Europe to know that these students are at that excellent level. They’ve gone through a lot of adversity. There’s just not that much available here for them. They’ve done the extra work. They’ve done all the extra reading to get to that level. Their work ethic is so impressive.

Where can our listeners find you online? [37:13] My website is evalantsoght.com, and my blog is there as well. My podcast is the PhD Talk podcast, which I co-host with Rico Massa from McGill, who is a PhD student. You can also find me on Twitter @evalantsoght and on Instagram @evalantsoght, and my Facebook page is PhD Talk.

Related links:

• Eva Lantsoght’s website
• Plotting Your Way to a PhD, a free guide
• How to Be a Competitive PhD Applicant and Apply to the Best Programs for You
• 3 Things You Should Look for When Researching PhD Programs
• Accepted Admissions Consulting Services

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• Writing a Compelling Personal Statement
• Awards! Grants! Scholarships! Oh My!
• How to Get Into Grad School, and Get Jobs After Grad School

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Need-to-know information about MIT Sloan [Show summary] Dawna Levenson, Assistant Dean of Admissions at MIT Sloan School of Management, shares the latest from the school’s full-time MBA program, including why it’s chosen to go test-optional and how the pandemic is shaping the classroom experience.

Do you see yourself at MIT Sloan? Read on for the inside admissions scoop. [Show notes] This is one of the most competitive MBA application cycles in memory. Today, I’m interviewing the Assistant Dean of Admissions at one of the most competitive MBA programs, MIT Sloan.

Dawna Levenson is Assistant Dean at MIT Sloan School of Management. Dawna earned her bachelor’s and master’s in Management Science at MIT Sloan, became a partner at Accenture, and then returned to MIT Sloan in 2007 as Associate Director of Academic Programs. She moved into admissions in 2012 and became Director of Admissions in 2013, and Assistant Dean in 2018.

Can you give an overview of MIT Sloan’s full-time MBA program for those listeners who aren’t that familiar with it? [1:52] We have a two-year MBA, we have a one-semester core, and then three semesters to really shape the curriculum to meet your interests. We have three tracks. We have one in finance, one in entrepreneurship and innovation, and a third in enterprise management. Think of those as templates or maps for particular areas of concentration. We also have three certificates: one in business analytics, one in healthcare, and a third in sustainability. These have been designed so that people are able to actually do one of each, if they’re interested. You could imagine that you may do the finance track, but then want to apply it to healthcare.

One other distinction I want to make is that, while the tracks are very specific to our two-year MBAs, the certificates are actually open to not only our MBAs and the entire Sloan community, but actually the entire MIT community. We are, in fact, MIT School of Management. That can mean as much as you want it to mean. As an MBA student, you are able to get involved in classes and clubs and conferences throughout the Institute to really help compliment your MBA experience. You can take some of your electives throughout the Institute. You can actually, also, take classes at several of the Harvard schools as well.

What’s new at MIT Sloan, other than a lockdown and a pandemic? [3:18] It’s hard to ignore the pandemic, and we absolutely should not. What I think has come out of that is lots of really interesting conversations in the classroom, as well as lots of very interesting projects. Many of our courses, which are, in fact, project-based, have taken the opportunity to refocus on different aspects of the pandemic and COVID-19. Whether it be from a healthcare standpoint or whether it be infrastructure and the impact there, or if you just think about it from a global perspective, so many things have been impacted. This has really, I think, shifted the conversation an awful lot. And again, at MIT and MIT Sloan, we’re really all about identifying and solving the world’s biggest problems. There were those who said we’ve been built for this time. I think we’re trying to do everything we can to really make a difference.

Can you give a couple of examples? [4:20] Last spring, when the pandemic hit, one of our courses is called USA Lab. And for that lab class, all of the projects, which had been defined very differently early on, shifted focus to be very much focused on helping the companies that we’re working with figure out how to survive through the pandemic. This fall, all of our action learning lab classes have become virtual, which has become very, very helpful to their sponsoring companies all over the world. Because as I mentioned, companies have been impacted tremendously. As part of the actual learning experience in the past, there’s been a travel component tied to that that has been funded by the company. To the extent that the company itself is struggling a bit to still get the knowledge and expertise of our students, to not have to worry about that has actually been quite a relief for many of these companies, a welcome change.

How have pandemic restrictions affected the MBA experience and program at MIT Sloan? [5:25] Let’s start with last fall. I think it’s important to note, and we’re not alone in this, but really the number one constraint that helps to define and shape the experience is the number of people who can physically be in a room at any point in time, and that is state of Massachusetts regulations. This past fall, that was 25 people. That includes a faculty member, a teaching assistant, an AV assistant, and therefore, 22 students. Understanding that, we opened the campus in the fall to any students who wanted to come on campus, anyone who was able to get there from around the globe was able to come. The number of in-person classes they had though was very much driven by what I was just describing here.

In the simplest of terms, many classes are a Monday, Wednesday class. We would have a group of students in the classroom on Monday and also a second group of students being virtual. And then on Wednesday, we would have a different group of 22 students in the classroom. Now, the number of those who could be online would vary very much actually by faculty, and what they were willing to do, because they could, in fact, have students who were only online. This isn’t necessarily for your first year core experience, but just in general, you could actually register for a class either in person, which would put you in one of those one-day/ 22 student classes, or online only. Many of our faculty were really generous with what those numbers would look like.

The spring, from an academic standpoint, is going to be very similar. What I think we need to figure out how to continue to do better is all of the co-curricular activities. They also were all virtual, and we’re hoping that this spring we’ll be able to have some of those in-person, following similar guidelines with regard to the number of people who could potentially be in the room. But students, all of our students, really crave in-person experience and being together, and so we’re trying to think of creative ways to be able to address that.

What don’t people know about MIT Sloan that you would like them to know, or what is a common misconception about MIT Sloan that you’d like to get rid of? [7:49] I often think perhaps the caliber and quality of our finance ecosystem gets overlooked. I know that when people are thinking of applying to business school to pursue a career in finance, we may not be at the top of their list. I think people are pleasantly surprised when they arrive and see the outstanding faculty we have, the ecosystem that we’ve built around courses and clubs and competitions in the field of finance. I think that’s actually a bit of a surprise to people.

How can prospective students engage with the Sloan community if you and your students can’t go to them and can’t get together with them? [8:45] We have migrated to a 100% virtual recruiting engine, which includes a variety of different events. Quite frankly, some are actually more effective and have a wider reach than in the past when we did travel. There are some benefits and definitely some lessons learned here. We host traditional info sessions online. We have a faculty lecture series that we’re continuing to add to, where we have faculty speaking. You can either watch the original, or we have it recorded, and you can watch the faculty recordings. We’re doing a tremendous number of coffee chats, which is a much smaller group of people, maybe 15 or 20, with someone from admissions and potentially a student or an alum to engage in conversations like you and I are having right now. Those have seemed to be very, very effective.

Sloan has a fairly distinctive MBA application with lots of different components. Can you go through the purpose of these different elements? [9:53] We completely understand that in the application, you’re not going to tell us everything there is to know about you, but you’re going to tell us enough for us to want to know more. You’re going to give us enough information for us to have a good sense of whether or not you are, from a capability standpoint, capable of doing the work. If you think about the cover letter, the resume and the video together, I think of that as a package to tell your story. The resume is your work history. The video is who you are personally. What gets you up in the morning? What excites you? And the cover letter is really meant to tie it all together. Why MIT Sloan? Think of those three things together, and look at those three items together.

The one required letter of recommendation is, quite frankly, our desire that if you’re only asking one person for a letter of recommendation, you’re going to spend the time really thinking about who that person might be, and you’re going to invest the time sitting down with him or her explaining what your interests are. We want to get from them a meaningful letter of recommendation.

The two references are, to the extent that we have additional questions that we may want to find out or ask about you, for if we have other people for whom we can call and contact. And it would never be a cold call. People worry about that. We would obviously email them and ask them if we could speak with them at a mutually convenient time. It’s important to let your references know about it, but I think manage their expectations in terms of how we might or might not get in touch with them.

The org chart, truth be told, we’ve actually borrowed from our Sloan Fellows MBA program, which is a program for more senior individuals. It helps give us a visual around where you stand within the organization. It is not meant to be a traditional org chart. It is not meant to be, if you work for a large company, the org chart that sits on their website. It’s almost like a relationship map. Put yourself in the middle of the page, and then, to whom do you report? Who reports to you? With whom do you interact? It helps give us a better sense of that.

We have two pre-interview questions this year, and the first one is around the mission of the school, which is to develop principled and innovative leaders who can improve the world, and to advance management practices along the way. An important element of that is to create a diverse environment, and so we’re asking you to share with us a time when you contributed to the diversity of an organization or a group.

The second essay is asking you to submit a one-page data visualization, either one that you’ve seen that has attracted your eye and your attention or one that you have created on your own to share it with us. And then in the interview, it’s actually a great icebreaker, we ask you to tell us, why did you pick this? Why is it important to you? And what do you want to make sure I get out of this? It really helps us in assessing your overall communication skills. Again, what is important to you? Depending on what you choose, it’s a really nice icebreaker.

What do you think is the most common applicant mistake that you see? [13:55] I think an applicant’s mistake is not following directions. We ask for one letter of recommendation, and you send us 10. We have word limits on the cover letter, and it’s three times that. If it’s five words over, that’s fine. If it’s 500 words over it, that’s a bit of a flag, so really pay attention. I also think, perhaps, not thinking through the recommender carefully enough in picking somebody. We are not assessing the recommender; we are assessing the applicant. Therefore, we, quite frankly, don’t care about the recommender’s title. If you have bumped into the CEO of your company in an elevator once and think that you’re comfortable now asking him or her to write your recommendation, but they really can’t say much about the impact you have made, then that is a waste of a recommendation. What we want for recommendations is really somebody who can speak to the impact that you have made on an organization or a group or a team of people.

The other mistake that people make is not about applicants; it’s about people who choose not to apply, who feel that you don’t have a chance of getting in, and it could be for one single reason that you just think is a hurdle that you cannot overcome. What I would really like to say to people is give it a shot. You never know. There’s a lot of misconceptions out there, I think, across the MBA landscape, if certain things will outweigh others. A perfect example might be a GMAT score. Everybody wants to put their best foot forward. I completely understand that. But I think that you should not let one specific attribute or element about yourself discourage you from applying.

In light of the pandemic and the crazy end to last year’s admission cycle, are you reading applications with a slightly different perspective, looking or weighing certain attributes more or less than you did before the pandemic? [16:20] Where that probably comes into play the most is around people’s work history, and the fact that we completely understand that many people may have been laid off early on, especially during the pandemic, and the challenges with finding another job. We are very understanding of that. I think it’s interesting to see how people have chosen to spend their time, if, in fact, it’s not in a traditional job. There’s definitely data. But again, I don’t think people should suddenly feel like they’re a knockout if they’ve been impacted by the pandemic from a work history standpoint.

One of the biggest pieces of news, which we’ve kind of danced around, is that MIT is test-optional this year. Are you missing the test score as you evaluate some applicants? Do you plan to continue with test optional? [17:16] The honest answer is, it’s too soon to tell. I can tell you that a large percentage of people still submitted a test score, whether that be GMAT or GRE. I can tell you that we modified our application to make it very easy and to encourage people to share additional information with us that would help assess their ability to be successful in a Sloan classroom, whether that might be a CFA certification or online classes that they have taken, or other certifications that they’ve done. That’s been very, very helpful for us. I think we’ve just sort of fully completed round one. Deposits were due this week, and we’re now in the process of reading round two and identifying who to interview. We don’t feel like we’re at a disadvantage because everybody does not necessarily have a test score.

Can you touch on MIT Sloan’s Early Admission program? Whom is it for, and how can one get in? [18:21] We are in our third year of this cycle. MBA Early Admission is targeted at undergrads and grad students who have not yet worked full-time. So, if you’ve been in a situation where you’ve pursued your undergrad and then went immediately onto graduate school, you are eligible, as long as you haven’t had full-time work experience. For MIT students who may be listening, there’s actually an MIT application deadline in November. For all non-MIT students, that application deadline is in the spring; it’s sometime early April. It’s for the most part, very comparable to the actual MBA application itself, because we’re looking to assess very similar qualities. It does include an interview. If admitted, we asked for a pretty small deposit of $750 dollars, and you then have two to five years to actually matriculate. You can go off into the world work, and we will reach out to you every year and say, is next year the time? We do it in round one, so we have a good sense of how many people will be doing it, to let us know how many seats we have available. For people who are college seniors who think that an MBA is in their future, it is really a great thing to do to apply now. Just to have that security, to know that you actually have a seat in an MBA class when the time is right for you.

READ: No Work Experience. Want MBA. What Should You Do? >>

Approximately how many people have these acceptances per year? [19:58] It’s just too soon to tell. We are again in year three. If I was 10 years out or even five years, I might be more comfortable sharing. It’s just too new for us. This fall, 11 people have expressed their plans to matriculate. I think what’s important to note is that this is a separate channel to be admitted to the MBA program. Once you actually matriculate, in that year, you’re just an MBA student. There’s not a separate track for MBA Early and there’s not special programming or anything. You don’t wear a big label that says “I was admitted MBA Early.” You are part of the MBA class, who happened to have been admitted through a slightly different channel.

Are there any requirements in terms of what they have to do in the two to five years? [20:51] Ideally, people are working professionally and gaining experience that would be relevant in the MBA classroom. That could perhaps be your own venture. It could be working for a traditional firm. We have a process set up by which, when you express your interests, we have a conversation to make sure that we agree that this is the right time for you. So it’s pretty loose.

Applicants have expressed the following concerns about applying this year. They’re concerned about, A, graduating into a weak economy, or B, applying when deferrals may have shrunk the number of available seats and when there’s been a spike in applications. How would you address those two concerns? [21:22] I think people shouldn’t overthink this. I think if this is the right time for you to apply for personal reasons and professional reasons, you should go for it, and you should apply, and you should put your best application forward. We are a school who welcomes reapplicants. We don’t necessarily hold that against you at all. In fact, we think that’s a sign of persistence, which we like. To the extent that you apply and you don’t necessarily get in this year, and you apply again next year, you’re more familiar with the process and you can build on the experience that you had. I’m not saying that everything you described is not true, because yes, application volumes have increased. And yes, the number of people who requested a deferral last year was significantly more than previous years. But also, again, don’t overthink this. Not everybody who requested a deferral last year is, in fact, matriculating this year.

Sloan’s round three deadline for a September 21, 2021 matriculation is April 12. Is there a difference in the way you evaluate a round three application from a round one and a round two application? Do you have any last minute tips for applicants applying in round three? [22:59] We don’t assess people any differently. The reality is we have much fewer seats to fill by the time we get to round three. But in terms of the qualities that we’re looking for, it’s all the same. A lot of people who apply in round three are perhaps people who an MBA was not on their radar necessarily, or they were going to think about applying next year, and then something happened that accelerated that process. The caliber of people apply in round three, I don’t think there’s a huge differential there either. I think it’s all very legitimate experiences and reasons for doing so. Put your best application forward, and again, if you don’t get in this year, you can reapply next year.

What advice would you give to someone thinking ahead to a round one or a round two an application in fall 2021, planning to matriculate in 2022? [24:00] To the extent that you’re now thinking about applying next year, apply as early as you possibly can. The reason is not because we have quotas; it’s because we don’t have quotas. It’s not like we say, “We’re going to admit half the class in round one, and 25% in round two, and 25% in round three.” At any point in time, we are looking to admit the best qualified people for our program. Then, depending on what the acceptance rate is in terms of them accepting our offer, I guarantee you, we will have less seats in the next round.

In addition, if you apply in round one and you’re waitlisted, you will be considered as part of the round two pool, not after the round two pools. If you apply in round one and for some reason you don’t get in and you get waitlisted, you have a very good chance of being seriously considered in round two.

Is there anything you would have liked me to ask you? [25:10] “Is now the right time to pursue an MBA?” Because a lot of people will ask that, and I think I probably covered bits and pieces of it as we were chatting, but maybe to just bring it all together: A lot has happened in the world in the last year. A lot of things have to be fixed as a result of this. I think pursuing an MBA now, the discussions that are happening in the MBA classroom, the opportunities that will be available to people once they complete… The world needs principled, innovative leaders now more than ever. To pursue your MBA now, all other things lining up, I think is a perfect time.

Where can listeners and potential applicants learn more about MIT’s full-time MBA program? Go online to sloan.mit.edu.

Related links:

• MIT Sloan’s website
• MIT Sloan MBA Essay Tips & Deadlines [2020-2021]
• MIT Sloan Class Profile
• Ask Me Anything With Dawna Levenson, Assistant Dean of Admissions at MIT Sloan, an on-demand session

Related show:

• What Post-MBA Life Is Like, During COVID and Beyond
• Application Trends to Watch in 2021, and a Look Back at 2020
• How to Address COVID-19 and the Events of 2020 in Your Application
• MBA Life at UC Berkeley Haas, From Its New Executive Director of Admissions
• What MBA Students Can Expect at UCLA Anderson
• What Prospective MBAs Should Know About Applying to Michigan Ross

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The post What’s New at MIT Sloan’s Competitive Full-Time MBA [Episode 409] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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A tale of med school reapplication success [Show summary] After getting rejected from medical schools the first time around, Nicole Stephens bounced back and reapplied. Now happily anticipating the start of med school, she shares her advice for fellow reapplicants.

How to apply stronger the second time around [Show notes] Were you rejected from this year’s med school cycle? Is the deafening silence from medical schools causing you to fear rejection? Are you starting to think about reapplication?

Our guest today, Nicole Stephens, reapplied successfully and is happily anticipating the start of medical school. She earned her bachelor’s in neuroscience from UT Austin in May 2019, and she is currently pursuing an MS in biomedical science from MD Anderson UTHealth Graduate School of Biomedical Science in Houston.

Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and where you grew up? [1:56] I grew up moving around the country with my brother and my parents, and both my parents served in the military. Every few years we would pack up and move to a new location. Not only did this inspire my future career, but it taught me a lot and shaped me a lot as a person, teaching me things like integrity and discipline and showing me the diversity across the whole country. We finally did settle in Central Texas where we really fell in love with the area. I decided to stay to do my undergrad in Austin at the University of Texas. Then, I stayed in Texas for my graduate program here in Houston and will be attending medical school here in Texas as well. I’m not from Texas, but I’m now a Texan at heart.

How did you decide to pursue a career in medicine? [3:01] I decided around when I was in middle school and early in high school from observing and learning about the injuries of returning soldiers. Being from military communities, many of the members would deploy overseas and return with injuries like post-traumatic stress or traumatic brain injury. I saw somewhere in my community that I would be able to help. That’s what inspired me to go into medicine.

Did you volunteer with some of the veterans and soldiers that came back injured? [3:29] I was able to volunteer at the military hospital at Fort Hood, Texas in the ICU there. My mom, she’s an artist. She did some art with some veterans, and I was able to volunteer with her for that. This was when I was 14 or 15. I wasn’t able to do much as a volunteer, being so young, but I was able to observe a lot. I think being in that environment at a young age, I was able to see that that is what I want to pursue in the future.

Why did you decide to pursue the master’s in biomedical science? [4:09] I knew that there would be some time between my time as an undergrad and medical school, and I wanted to do something that would challenge myself, but also show medical schools that I was dedicated to continuing my education and show them that I was able to continue to increase my GPA. That’s why I decided to do a program. The reason I chose my particular program is because I had the opportunity to continue my research. So as an undergrad, I did a lot of bench work research, and I worked with fruit flies. Now as a graduate student, I’m now able to work more with patients in clinical research. That was a really neat opportunity and led me to this particular program.

What is the application of your research, either with fruit flies or human beings? [4:58] With fruit flies, I studied their circadian rhythmicity and a few different mutant variants. Now I’m doing completely different research. I’m actually doing research at the dental school here, working with geriatric patients. Geriatrics is something I’m really interested in, so that’s why I chose this particular lab. My thesis project is in studying oral health changes over time in nursing home residents. The oral health and systemic health, they’re connected. For oral health, it’s the state of chronic inflammation in the oral cavity. And when there’s inflammation somewhere in the body, there’s a pro-inflammatory state everywhere else in the body, which affects diseases like diabetes and heart disease.

You indicated you took the master’s because you knew you were not going to go directly to medical school. Was the 2020-2021 medical application your first one? [6:02] No, this was a reapplication for me. I had previously applied the 2019-2020 cycle. The reason I had to reapply, I don’t know exactly, but I can tell you what I’ve done to strengthen my application and what I think led to my success this cycle. I did retake the MCAT and restudied for the MCAT and did a lot better, 11 points better. I think that really showed the schools that I was dedicated to strengthening that foundation in the sciences. And along with that, I did well in my coursework in grad school. That was also showing them that I was dedicated to the academics of medicine. I increased my clinical experiences through shadowing my clinical research and volunteering in a hospital here pre-COVID.

Also, I think something that really helped me was having better recommenders the second time around. My first application cycle, I only had one recommender that knew me really well, my mentor, and then I had a physician that didn’t know me super well, and then two professors where I did well in their class, but they didn’t know me outside of the class. This application cycle, I had four recommenders who knew me very well, knew what I wanted to do in medicine, and could write a stronger letter for me. I think that probably helped a lot. And then also just learning how to write for the applications, I think, made me a stronger applicant, writing more actively about what I did and what I learned, as opposed to maybe just telling a story about what I observed.

When you say you had better recommenders, what made them better? [7:58] The fact that I was able to spend more time with them to show them what I really was interested in medicine. My previous recommenders, like I said, were two professors. I was in their class and I participated in their class and did well, but they didn’t know me outside of just being another student in their class. This time I had my MS advisor, who was a course director for a seven-hour course I took my first semester here, so she spent a lot of time with me. I have my new mentor here, who I work with daily, and then I have a physician that I got to know better than the first physician I had. She was really dedicated to helping medical students get into the medical programs they’re interested in.

You indicated also that you changed your writing. How did you change your writing? [9:15] In working with Accepted, I learned a lot about how to write for these applications because I think I was already a strong writer in telling stories. But as a medical school candidate, you have to learn how to say, “I did this experience and I showed integrity, or I learned this about being a geriatric physician,” things like that, and the qualities that it takes to be that. I think in my previous application cycle, I was writing more about what the doctors did that I observed as opposed to what I learned.

What was the hardest part of the application for you, either the first time or the second time? Did it change? [9:57] The hardest thing is the time it takes and realizing that it takes perseverance and that it’s going to be a long process and to not get burnt out. Understanding that it is a marathon and not a sprint is challenging.

When you realized you were not going to start medical school in 2020, were you already prepared to reapply? How did you process that? [10:20] I knew I was ready to reapply. Before the whole cycle was over, I hadn’t heard back much. I got one interview, and then I was waitlisted from that school. I started studying for the MCAT again during the application cycle. I did have one friend who’s in medical school here in Houston who said, “Just wait and see. Don’t rush it.” But I think being that anxious premed like many of us are, I just started studying again. I always prepared to reapply. I did have my school here that I could do the second year, which was helpful. I had something to do in that time to focus on. I wasn’t in too much of a rush.

How did you approach the primary application, and when did you submit it, both the first time and the second time you applied? [12:30] Both times I applied really early in the process. I applied in Texas and then the whole United States. They’re different schedules, but both I did very early on. I did approach them differently the second time compared to the first time. The first time, I approached it more about the quantity of applications, rather than the quality of applications. My first cycle, I applied through AMCAS, TMDSAS, and AACOMAS. I applied to many programs in all of those, and I didn’t necessarily focus on the mission of the schools. That’s something I’ve learned. For example, I applied to Virginia Tech, and I think that school really wants people who want to serve the Appalachian Mountains and the rural areas there. That’s not necessarily where I want to go in medicine, and I didn’t pay attention to that. So when I reapplied, I decided to focus more on the quality of my applications. I was able to put more time into applying through TMDSAS and then AMCAS, but to fewer schools with AMCAS. Having more focus on a fewer number of schools compared to the really, really large number I applied to my first year made me a better quality applicant.

How many did you apply to the second time around? [14:15] The second time around I applied to every school in Texas under TMDSAS and then one school in AMCAS. Then, I ended up finishing the secondaries for seven or eight schools for TMDSAS.

How did you stay on top of the secondaries? [14:45] It’s less overwhelming when you reduce the number. You’re, again, able to produce more quality essays for the secondaries. I think what’s really difficult about the secondaries is that you’re already so far in the process and you’re often very tired and you need time to decompress. I took a few days to decompress, and then I decided to start knocking them out. But what I found I was able to do with the secondaries, both in my first year and my second year applying, was recycle some answers. What I mean by that is: Those schools aren’t going to ask questions in the exact same manner, but often they asked the same questions. One school may ask about a failure and one school might ask about a time you learned a lesson, and you’re able to take the story from the first essay and tweak it to address what the other school wants. It definitely cuts down on the time restarting on a blank page.

Also, when you pay attention to the mission of the school and you think it’s a school that you would be a good fit at and that would be a good fit for you, it’s a little easier to write for them because your experiences fit that school. It’s somewhere you really think you’d fit in well, so it’s exciting to write for those programs.

How many schools did you interview at the second time, and how did you prepare? [16:28] The second time I interviewed at two schools. I began my preparation for the interviews maybe two weeks before, maybe a little more time, but around two weeks. I started by looking at the most common med school interview questions and some example answers and what is expected of you when answering questions in medical school interviews. Next, I outlined my experiences, some stories from those experiences, and qualities that I showed in those experiences without writing out answers to questions, brainstorming what I’ve done.

Then, the main thing I did when preparing for interviews was pretending like I was being interviewed and talk to myself or talk to my computer, look up questions, and pretend somebody has asked me that question and answer as I would in an interview. I found that I became more comfortable talking about myself over time. I became more concise in my answers. I was able to come up with the stories that I wanted to tell easier. It feels silly, but that’s what I found to help me and be more natural in an interview setting. Whenever I was getting ready for bed, sometimes I would pretend I was answering a question.

What are your plans for between now and the start of medical school? [18:00] My plan is to graduate from my master’s program. I need to finish my thesis and then defend my thesis. Then, I’m hoping to have some time in between to relax, but that’s my main goal before med school.

How do you see your career developing? Do you have any direction within medicine? [18:27] As I said earlier, I’m really interested in geriatrics, but I’m going into medical school with an open mind because I’ve heard so many people say that they go in thinking they want to do one thing, and then they come out doing something they never expected that they would do. I’ve kind of experienced that. I didn’t know I would be interested in geriatrics until I shadowed a geriatric physician and I really enjoyed it. I’m going into medical school with that same mindset to shadow different physicians and go on the different rotations with an open mind.

What do you wish I would have asked you? [19:05] There’s something I want to add to the part about my rejection and why I think I was rejected the first time around. In college, I didn’t start college with a great GPA. I was kind of shocked by the coursework, and I didn’t know how to study. But I was able to steadily increase my GPA. I think that showing the programs in my reapplication that I was able to perform well in grad school at that higher academic level really made a difference, which I wasn’t able to show them the first time around. Although grades are very important, I think that you’re able to get past bad grades if you show the schools that you can perform in your harder coursework later on.

Over time did you figure out how to study, or did you go to some centers on campus to help you or talk to professors? What did you do? [19:58] Freshman year was really difficult for me. I’ll be honest, because maybe this will help somebody. I received three Cs my freshman year of college in my science courses. My sophomore year, I said to myself, “We’ve got to figure out how we’re going to learn to study for these classes.” I tried different ways of studying and put more time in. That was something that I knew I needed to do. It wasn’t just immediately “poor GPA to 4.0.” It was a slow, steady increase because I did have to learn and I did have to gain that foundation I was missing from my freshman year. But I think showing schools that you’re able to slowly steadily increase your GPA, it says something about that.

We don’t often talk about low grades as premeds, but I hope this can help somebody know that it is possible. Although I’m sure schools enjoy seeing good grades all the way around, they’re not going to just focus on a few bad grades. They can look at you in the holistic view.

Did you get more than one acceptance the second time? How did that first acceptance feel? [22:37] I had two offers. It was a little sigh of relief because of all the hard work that we do as premeds and how long the process really is. I don’t want to say it was unbelievable because I do think I put in hard work, but I think it takes a moment to soak in that you will be a physician once you get that offer of admission.

Any last bits of wisdom or advice for premeds, both first-time and reapplicant? [23:12] I think this could apply for both: I think we can get stuck as premeds looking to the future too much and always thinking we’re going to be happier at the next step. We’ll be happier when we finally finish MCAT, or we’ll be happier when we finally get into med school, or when we’re finally physicians, we’re going to be the happiest we’ll ever be. But find peace in the present moment and know that you’re on the journey already to being a physician. Find happiness in this moment. Put hard work in to reach your goals, but enjoy the process because it’s very long, and you’re already on the journey.

Related Links:

• The Reapplicant’s Guide to Medical School Acceptance, an on-demand webinar
• Get Accepted to Medical School in 2022, an on-demand webinar
• Life as a UCI Med School Student, Wife, and Mom, an interview with a successful medical school reapplicant
• Accepted’s Medical Admissions Consulting

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• How This Premed Student Got Accepted to Medical School Early
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• Facing Adversity as a Med School Applicant
• Accepted to Med School in Mid October: How Did He Do It?
• An International Student’s Experience at Harvard Medical School
• How to Apply to the Best Med Schools for You

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The post An Accepted Student’s Advice for Reapplying to Medical School [Episode 408] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.

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What makes the Cambridge Judge MBA experience unique? [Show summary] Charlotte Russell-Green, Head of MBA Recruitment and Admissions at Cambridge Judge Business School, explores the one-of-a-kind experience students can expect from the full-time MBA program at Cambridge Judge’s historic campus.

What Cambridge Judge is looking for… and what it can offer YOU [Show notes] Are you intrigued by the innovative and venerated Cambridge Judge Business School? Interested in an immersive one-year MBA in the UK? The Cambridge Judge Head of MBA Recruitment and Admissions is our guest today.

Charlotte Russell-Green earned her bachelor’s in Drama and Theater Arts from the University of London. In only a couple of years, she was working in the MBA admissions world, first as a senior marketing executive for QS World MBA in North America and then in MBA admissions for Cambridge Judge. She became Head of Recruitment and Admissions for the MBA roughly five years ago.

Can you give us an overview of the Cambridge Judge MBA program and focus on its more distinctive elements? [2:03] The Cambridge MBA is a one-year full-time MBA program, run out of the University of Cambridge, which is in the UK, which is in Europe. The great thing about the Cambridge MBA is it really is experiential. The curriculum has been designed to take you on a micro to macro journey, but with each term, there is a key learning milestone: a practical project where you’re working with a real life client. There are two live consulting projects that run alongside your studies, as well as the global consulting project, which is where you work with an international client on site as a consultant, as well as an internship opportunity in the summer. So it’s really experiential, and it’s really, really collaborative.

We have a class size of circa 200, which we find is optimal for us and the learning environment that we have, because you can build meaningful relationships with your classmates. It’s broad enough and diverse enough to build a far-reaching network, but you’re really going to get to know everyone in the class. You’re also set amongst the University of Cambridge, so you are a member of one of the famous Cambridge colleges, and you get to have the Harry Potter-style dining experience. It’s a fantastic opportunity and a great life experience.

Over the summer term, you can do an internship. We keep the summer term quite flexible because people can be at quite different journeys of their career path. Some people want to do an internship. Some people choose to do another consulting project, or some even choose to do a research paper.

Do the students have any difficulty changing career direction or returning to their home country if they aren’t from the UK? I know most Cambridge Judge students are not. [4:02] Usually around 90% of the class is international. A really good thing to look at, which perhaps we can link to later, is the employment report, which is a great way of seeing where our students go after the MBA. Particularly if you’re coming from the US and you’re used to the two-year standard MBA model, you might feel a bit anxious about the one-year program and it being so fast-paced and over in a flash. But actually we have over 90% of the class switch function sector or location, and actually, over 40% of the class achieve all three. So within that one year, people are able to really change up their career and achieve a lot. Good thing to do would be to look at the report and drill down, but we get people who work in the UK and we get people who go to work internationally in another country.

But we do also get people who return to their home country. It’s something that our students do achieve. But what I would say, if you are someone from the US who is looking to work in the US after your MBA, then unless it is your goal to gain that international experience and get that one year internationally and broaden your network internationally (because the European programs do tend to be more international with the cohort numbers), if your goal is to work in the US, then I would say, quite honestly, to stick within the location that you’re in because you’re going to be able to build your network there and nurture the existing network that you have.

How open is the UK these days to MBA grads staying and working for a few years in the UK? [6:01] The UK government announced last year that they would introduce the graduate route, which is where if you are a postgraduate student and you graduate, you can work in the UK for two years after graduating. Previously, it was three months, and then there was a pilot that extended it to six months. But now it’s going to be two years where people can stay and work in the UK. They don’t have to be sponsored by an employer. It’s really, really good because we’ve got so many international students. It’s a fantastic thing for the government to do for us.

In 2018, 16 of the Cambridge Judge grads started their own venture immediately after graduation. Given Cambridge Judge’s small size, that’s about 7% of the class. What does Cambridge Judge offer would-be entrepreneurs? That’s a pretty high percentage of students going directly into entrepreneurship! [6:43] In Cambridge, we have what’s called the Silicon Fen, which is Europe’s equivalent of Silicon Valley. We have the highest investment per capita in Europe, five times that of London. Entrepreneurship is massive here. If you’re somebody that’s looking to go into entrepreneurship or starting your own venture, or even going into something like venture capital, then Cambridge is a real hub for that sort of activity. At the business school itself, we have an incubator called Accelerate, which our students have to apply to when they finish the MBA. We have many people going through that route. In the MBA itself, we have entrepreneurship as a core module, as well as a concentration. The first consulting project is usually with a local startup.

The university actually has an entrepreneurship society, which is the largest society at the university. It brings together people who potentially are academics, they have a fantastic product or idea or theory, but they don’t have the skills to market it. They don’t have that business acumen. Our students obviously have that business acumen, and people often meet their business partners at these networking events for the entrepreneurship society. There’s so much to offer at Cambridge.

My image of Cambridge is a place steeped in tradition, but it’s also apparently very much embracing initiative and innovation. Am I correct in that? [8:33] You’re 100% right. Walking around the city center, you would feel like you are in a quaint English village. The architecture is beautiful. We have cows and sheep walking around the parks. It’s really safe and beautiful. Great places to eat and drink. It feels just so quaint and beautiful and historic. Within 50 miles, we’ve got over 900 tech firms generating an annual revenue of 12 billion, but you wouldn’t know that walking around the city center.

What don’t people know about Cambridge Judge that you would like them to know? [9:30] I think there’s a common misconception about the University of Cambridge. Don’t get me wrong, it is academically excellent and does have some of the brightest minds in the world. It’s a fantastic place for innovation and critical thinking. But I think because of that, people can be quite intimidated by it. And actually, when you come to Cambridge and you come to the business school, and if you are invited to interview and you have the experience of coming here, you’ll see that it’s a professional atmosphere, but it’s actually really, really relaxed. It’s very much focused around collaboration rather than competition. Healthy competition, more about helping each other out and making each other be the best. I think people are quite surprised by the culture at the business school because of that intimidation of the academic excellence that goes back hundreds of years.

How have the coronavirus restrictions affected the MBA experience and program at Cambridge Judge? [10:40] I can’t deny the fact that COVID has really impacted everybody. Absolutely everybody. It has been very, very unforgiving in that sense. But what it has done in a positive way for us is it has accelerated some innovation within the program. There were always plans to make some of the core modules be online so that students could study the lectures at their own pace. We’d always had feedback that the first term was particularly intense, because there are lots of core modules to get through on a one-year MBA program. What it’s done is it’s accelerated that because we didn’t have any choice. We had to move some things online. That’s been really positive, and we’ve genuinely had feedback from our students that that’s really positive, because the lecture part is done online, remotely at their own pace, and they can wind things back. If they miss something, they can go back and listen to it again, which you can’t do when you’re in a lecture theater. When you’re learning about corporate finance, if you’re a newbie, it’s a fantastic way to learn to be able to do that.

The actual in-person sessions that we had, because we were restricted by social distancing, had to be in groups of 20 or 30. The conversation was really, really engaging and everybody was able to contribute. We’ve had some really positive feedback about that and things that we can take forward into the future classes. But lockdown has not been fun for anybody, and it’s a shame. But we’re thinking positive for the next term.

What is the purpose of the different elements in Judge’s application? You have four essays, one reference, and the interview. I know that there’s a reason behind every single element. Can you go into that? [12:45] The reason behind one reference for us was some MBA programs ask for an academic reference, as well as a supervisor reference. We ask for a minimum of three years work experience. That can be quite unfair for people, especially when the class average is six. It’s challenging to go back and ask for an academic reference, and we ask for a supervisor reference only. I do get asked about the essays a lot, and it’s hard to not give too much away because we’re looking at how the person responds to the questions that we’re asking. It gives away, potentially, the way that they behave, aspects of their personality, and how they respond in certain situations, and whether they have resilience. These are the kinds of things that we’re looking for.

With the questions that we ask in particular, that’s what we’re looking at. We’re looking at, how do they work with other people? What are they like in a team? How do they take instruction? Are they always looking to be the leader? Those are the things that we look for in the essays. I know it causes so much anxiety because people worry about how to answer it and what sort of answer to give, whether it’s personal or professional. But what I tend to say is give an answer that isn’t too personal, but answers the question in the best possible way and shows a true reflection of how you respond in situations and respond to that sort of situation around that question.

For the one reference, you obviously want professional references. Is that to get a different perspective on the candidate? [14:42] Some people may think getting the CEO of their company is a really great thing to do, but actually, it’s more important that we get somebody that knows you, knows how you work, and can comment really honestly on what you’ve achieved during your time working with them.

What about the interview? What is it like, and what role does it play? [15:09] The thing about the University of Cambridge is anybody that has studied here has to be interviewed by a member of faculty. It’s traditional, it’s historic, and it’s something that we get positive feedback on about our interview process. It’s more of a two-way conversation, the interview. It gives you the opportunity to get a feel for the culture, get your questions answered as well as the faculty being able to find out about you as well. It does play an important part because the interview recommendation, obviously, is what makes a difference to the decision that’s going to be made. I say, prepare for it as you would a job interview, but also be prepared for two-way conversation, a professional conversation. I think people are quite surprised by that.

The faculty interview is indicative of what the culture is here. It’s a very, very collaborative culture. One of the things that I like to tell people is, every day at 11 o’clock pre-COVID, everyone from the business school would come together in the common room and have coffee. 11 o’clock every day. Staff, faculty, students, everyone has coffee. It really gives you a feel for just how collaborative it is, how connected it really is. You can speak to the faculty. They are approachable. They take a genuine interest in the students that we have here. That kind of relationship is built from the interview process onwards.

What do you think is the most common mistake that applicants make in their applications to Cambridge Judge? [16:55] This is a challenging one, because it’s difficult to put your finger on why an essay isn’t right. But I would say people may give an answer that they think is going to be impressive as opposed to an answer that genuinely answers the question. That’s a common mistake that we find, because we’re not necessarily looking for the most impressive answer. We’re looking for the most honest answer that shows critical reflection on the situation and shows how they’ve responded and how they’ve thought about it since and what they’ve learned from it. That’s what we’re looking for in the essays. I think people, because of the pressure of the application, understandably want to impress us and give us answers that maybe show them in the best light as opposed to answering the question.

Then you’ve got the general housekeeping errors where people mention another business school in one of their essays, or the CV, or the resume that they’ve uploaded has another business school’s name on the file. Simple things like that. We know you’re applying to another school, but check those sorts of things before you click submit.

In light of the pandemic and the crazy end to last year’s admission cycle, are you going to read applications with a slightly different perspective? Maybe weighing somewhat different qualities and attributes than you did in proceeding application cycles? [18:10] We have always looked for skills and personality traits like resilience. That’s always been really important. Self-awareness, critical reflection. I think that this pandemic has really tested people’s resilience this year. If anything, it’s really going to benefit the applicant, because if you’ve been able to get through this year, you’ve got a lot to be able to offer in your application with regards to resilience and self-awareness.

With regards to reviewing them differently, it’s a difficult one. It will probably be similar to the way that we are, but if people’s jobs circumstances change as a result of the pandemic, redundancies or anything like that, then obviously we’re going to take that into consideration for career breaks and things like that.

Do you have any plans to go test-optional? [19:16] It’s not something that we’re going to do, simply because it’s an opportunity for students who have not done so well in their undergraduate academics to compensate. If we were to make it optional, it would potentially take away the level playing field for everybody. It’s not something that we would be doing. We would always require a GMAT or GRE.

Do you have any preference between the GMAT and the GRE? [19:48] No. We accept both. We accept both GMAT and GRE. No preference. But we’re quite stringent on the minimum of a 2.1 requirement on the UK scale, which I think works out for 3.5 GPA on the US scale. The GMAT or the GRE offers people an opportunity to compensate. So it’s actually quite a positive thing for our applicants.

What would you say to applicants who want to apply this year but are concerned about competing in the midst of an application surge? Also, you might’ve had a higher number of deferrals from last year because of COVID, or they may be concerned about graduating into a weak economy. What would you say to those applicants? [20:44] It’s an understandable concern. With regards to the application surge, we have seen a surge in applications. But with applications surges, not everyone is a top candidate. So if you’re a strong person and you’re coming with a good application, a good profile, then I would encourage you to apply, because we would want you on the program. You would most likely be invited to interview and made an offer. The numbers do get less and less as you go throughout the year. We are just about to interview for round three. But unlike the US programs, we don’t just fill up from rounds one and two, we take people from all five application rounds. The last application round is towards the end of April. So it’s a valid concern, but I would say if you’re the right person for the program, and you’ve looked at the program and you’re genuinely interested in it, and it’s the right program for you, then I would encourage you to apply and get in touch with us, because we make space for the people that we want here.

With regards to the weak economy, again, it’s a really valid concern. And an MBA program is a big investment. You’re investing a lot in yourself and the ROI is incredibly important. The job you get afterwards is incredibly important. You’re paying off loans. It’s understandable. But there is a lot of opportunity in a weak economy. There are industries that are falling, but there are industries that are surging and doing incredibly well. The tech industry, the e-commerce industry. There is so much opportunity for innovation at the moment. So although there are potential risks with doing an MBA right now, there are also real opportunities for it. Who knows where we’ll be this time next year, at this time in 18 months? Valuable and understandable concerns, but again, lots of room for opportunity.

The kind of people looking to do an MBA are people that are probably not going to be too risk averse. They’re also going to be the kind of people that are problem-solvers, people that are looking to take on opportunities. Even the UK banking sector has really innovated very quickly because they’ve had to: the online chat services — you can close accounts now online which you couldn’t do, so many things that you had to do bureaucratically, that you’d have to go in branch to do or fill out paperwork. You don’t have to do that anymore. It’s brilliant.

Cambridge’s last deadline for September 2021 matriculants is April 26th. There’s also one on March 8th. What advice would you give to someone in the midst of preparing for an application for this cycle? [24:18] I imagine that people looking to apply now have already taken their GMAT or GRE, and hopefully they’ve got those things out the way. I would say, take your time over the essays. If you’re applying to the program, there’s obviously something about it that interested you. Think about why we’re asking the questions that we’re asking, and answer in an honest way. Take your time over them. Potentially get somebody that you trust who’s going to be objective and read it over and get feedback and really put together a really, really solid answer for your essays, especially your careers essay as well. But also, if you haven’t already, get in touch with us. If you’re looking to apply in the next two rounds, get in touch with us, attend one of our events, talk to us, because that’s always great, if we can get to know people before they apply.

What advice would you give to someone thinking ahead to a fall 2021 or later, for matriculation in 2022 or later? [25:55] Good for you. You’re really prepared by listening to this podcast. You’re doing all the right things by listening to things like this, doing your research, attending events. We’ve got lots of events coming up over the next year or so. Everything’s virtual now. A real positive thing is, you don’t have to be located in the UK or in one of the countries that we visit or cities that we visit to attend. You can attend any time. Get in touch with us. Prepare for the GMAT or the GRE. And if you’re not sure about your score, feel free to email us as well. We’re happy to give feedback if you’re not sure about whether the school is competitive with the rest of your profile. We’re happy to give feedback on that. But you’ve got plenty of time. Good luck with GMAT and GRE prep. Connect with us and find out more about us. We’d love to find out more about you.

Is there anything you would have liked me to ask you? [26:53] Well, it’s Friday night here, so a glass of wine would have been amazing! You’ve asked some really good questions, but I think a question about the college experience would have been brilliant. It’s quite unique to the UK. It’s quite unique even within the UK. There are only two universities in the UK that have this collegiate system. What happens when you come on the Cambridge MBA is you don’t just have the network within the MBA program and the business school. You don’t just have your MBA. You are a member of one of the famous Cambridge colleges. That’s where you live, that’s where you dine, that’s where you socialize. Each college has the same bar. You can join the rowing team. Cambridge is massive on rowing. Any sort of sporting team. We have people playing for varsity rugby at Twickenham. We have people joining the debate team or the cheese and wine society. Any extracurricular activity that you want to do, you can do at one of the Cambridge colleges. It gives that extra life experience when you join Cambridge MBA, because you have the professional experience of the MBA, the network and the societies and the extracurriculars within the MBA, but then you have this little life within the Cambridge university. The dining rooms, when I say Harry Potter, they’re just like Harry Potter. That’s what Harry Potter was based on. Cambridge’s famous dining rooms. It’s a really magical historical experience that you get to be a part of.

Where can listeners and potential applicants learn more about Cambridge Judge’s full-time MBA program? [28:53] The website is jbs.cam.ac.uk/programs/mba/.

Related Links:

• Cambridge Judge website
• Leadership in Admissions, a free guide • Cambridge Judge MBA Application Essay Tips• Accepted’s MBA Admissions Consulting Services

Related Shows:

• All About the Kellogg MBAi, for Students Passionate About Business and Technology
• MBA Life at UC Berkeley Haas, From Its New Executive Director of Admissions • Early Career Management and European MBA Programs with Jamie Wright• What MBA Students Can Expect at UCLA Anderson

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The post What to Expect From the MBA Experience at Cambridge Judge Business School [Episode 407] appeared first on Accepted Admissions Blog.