The Lawyer's Escape Pod: Recent Episodes
Megan Smiley
Megan Smiley interviews recovering lawyers, career advisors, and other professionals for advice and inspiration on transitioning out of law practice.
My guest this week is Anne-Marie Rabago, the founder and principal of Modern Juris, which provides tools, training, and support to help lawyers build financially sustainable businesses designed to serve the latent legal market. Anne-Marie started her legal career at Pricewaterhousecoopers, then launched a solo tax law practice before transitioning into law school and non-profit legal incubator programming.
I wanted to have Anne-Marie on because I, admittedly, wasn’t familiar with legal incubators when she first mentioned it to me and I thought it was a great resource to share with all of you.
In this episode, we discuss:
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Anne-Marie’s personal journey from traditional practice to a solo tax law practice to mentoring & coaching
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Legal incubators and how they might help you
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Strategies to start and scale solo law firms
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The potential in the untapped legal market
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The rewards and hurdles of unconventional legal practice
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The power of intentional decision-making for your career trajectory
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Navigating career changes so you don’t let yourself get stuck
Connect with Megan!
2024 Focus Session: https://megansmiley.com/2024-focus-session
Sign-Up for the Newsletter: https://dogged-painter-2837.ck.page/f4e1721839
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Connect with Anne-Marie!
Website: https://www.modernjuris.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annemarierabago/
My guest today is Kate Bridal, a former lawyer turned legal tech marketer turned co-host of The Legal Burnouts podcast.
We explore her professional journey, from drama school to working with primates (yes, seriously - she got to sign with chimps), to law and beyond.
Kate shares with us how she's navigated the pressures of the legal profession, her adventures in legal tech marketing, and the ongoing career transition she’s navigating.
It’s an open and honest conversation that highlights that the road is rarely linear, and getting comfortable with change and uncertainty is the name of the game.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Kate's unorthodox leap from primate studies to law.
- Kate’s path through various legal jobs, compassion fatigue, and burnout.
- Challenging the norms and status quo of the legal industry.
- The crisis of identity that can come with career evolution.
- The tension between personal ambition and family and financial realities.
- Kate's success in landing and acclimatizing to a legal tech marketing role through humor and honesty.
- Tips on networking and seeking career advice, even if reaching out feels out of your comfort zone.
- Learning to trust your gut over outside opinions.
- Kate's current thoughts around starting her own business and doing contracting work.
- The importance of taking conscious breaks and finding hobbies that reinvigorate you.
- The liberating yet anxiety-ridden process of forging a path without a clear career roadmap.
- Insider baseball discussion of keeping up with our podcasts
Connect with Megan!
Sign-Up for the Newsletter: https://dogged-painter-2837.ck.page/f4e1721839
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
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Connect with Kate!
Legal Burnouts Website: https://www.thelegalburnouts.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kate-bridal/
Our guest today is Sejal Thakkar, a former employment law attorney, a 2X TEDx speaker, and the Founder and Chief Civility Officer at TrainXtra, a woman/minority- owned training consulting firm, where she helps leaders create positive, safe, and respectful workplaces through customized training and coaching.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Sejal realizing that litigation was a bad fit; she wanted to build workplace culture, not clean up messes
- Following your interests to build skills and open doors
- Leveraging your legal background in a business
- Leaning into a growth mindset to move through imposter syndrome
- Balancing purpose-driven work, family and finances
- Navigating a non-linear path from employment to entrepreneurship
- Relying on your resourcefulness and self-trust rather than avoiding all risks
- The importance of networking and planting seeds for your long-term career growth
Connect with Megan!
Sign-Up for the Newsletter: https://dogged-painter-2837.ck.page/f4e1721839
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
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Connect with Sejal!
Website: http://www.trainxtra.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sejalthakkar/
April Roberts is a former attorney turned financial advisor who now coaches Gen X women to achieve more abundance, love, spirituality and alignment by connecting with their femininity.
She also hosts the podcast Vixen Voice where she shares stories of Gen X women that have shed the traditional definition of success to pursue their life’s true passion.
April shares with us all of the twists, turns, and lessons she learned in her personal and professional journey.
Key Takeaways from April's Journey:
(1) Being open and flexible: Be open to your career path taking different turns, for both personal and professional reasons. As a person, you become more self-aware and you evolve. And life happens. So, be flexible and resourceful and continue to check in with what is right for you in each season.
(2) Overcoming setbacks and embracing growth: April opens up about her divorce and the challenges she faced during that time. Through self-reflection and connecting with other female entrepreneurs, she learned to embrace failure and rebuild an abundance mentality. Sometimes, the most difficult moments can inspire us to grow and find new paths to success.
(3) Balancing your feminine and masculine energies: April highlights the importance of understanding and embracing both feminine and masculine energies in work and life. It isn’t about gender, but instead about archetypal energy - like yin and yang. She invites us to balance the logical, action-oriented side of ourselves with our more intuitive, flowing intelligence.
In this episode, we discuss:
- The influence of parents on April’s career choice
- The pros and cons of being a young lawyer
- April’s realization that the substance of work and lifestyle were not aligned with her values
- Leaving law practice and the country with April’s Italian husband
- Returning from abroad and to practice
- Navigating a career amidst personal upheaval
- Recognizing your unique superpowers
- Managing fear and embracing abundance
- April’s transition to financial advisor
- Balancing masculine and feminine energies
Connect with Megan!
Sign-Up for the Newsletter: https://dogged-painter-2837.ck.page/f4e1721839
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
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Connect with April!
Website: https://www.vixengathering.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprilrroberts/
Vixen Voice Podcast: https://www.vixengathering.com/podcast
Today’s guest is Laura Terrell, an executive coach with over twenty-five years of experience as a legal and business leader.
Prior to coaching, she was a Special Assistant to the President at the White House, a senior level appointee at the U.S. Department of Justice, an equity partner in two large, global law firms, and in-house counsel at a publicly traded company.
In this episode, we discuss:
- How to be brave in your career moves
- That taking a risk to do something different teaches you that there’s not one “right” path
- Laura’s moves between private and public sector work
- Laura’s advice on moving into government
- How Laura enjoys the business side of practice and sees that it’s an area lawyers need support navigating
- Understanding what the long game at big firm actually looks like
- How to make informed decisions and not be an ostrich with your head in the sand
Connect with Megan!
Sign-Up for the Newsletter: https://dogged-painter-2837.ck.page/f4e1721839
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
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Connect with Laura!
Website: https://www.lauraterrell.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lauralterrell
Emily Witt is a legal recruiter with almost twenty years of industry experience (on both the firm side at one of the world's preeminent law firms and also on the agency side). She tells us about her own career evolution, as well as how she helps lawyers find their next best job.
We talk about the importance of keeping your personal true north in mind as you pivot. For Emily, that has meant centering freedom, flexibility and her interest in health & wellness in each stage of her career.
She also reminds us that you don’t have to make one huge jump and stay there forever. Think about taking steps closer and closer to what you really want to do and/or finding jobs that give you space to explore different possibilities on the side.
Finally, she gives us an insider view into the pluses and minuses of being a legal recruiter, for anyone who might be thinking about that as a possible career move.
Connect with Megan!
Sign-Up for the Newsletter: https://dogged-painter-2837.ck.page/f4e1721839
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
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Connect with Emily!
Website: https://www.whistlerpartners.com/team/emily-witt
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilywittslegalpath/
Podcast: https://beyondthelegallens.libsyn.com/
The Advocate’s Mic: www.advocatesmic.com
Today I’m talking about how success is an entirely personal thing.
It looks different for each of us. Yet, our society (and our industry) tend to have a pretty narrow and uniform definition.
That's how so many of us get stuck climbing one particular type of success ladder.
I encourage you to give yourself permission to personalize your definition of success. And in this episode, I’m giving you some tips on how to start doing that.
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Connect with Megan!
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/megansmileyesq/
This week’s guest is Leah Campbell Badertscher. She is a former lawyer who has become an artist and a coach to world-class performers and leaders in the arts, business, and social good.
Her work is about fulfilling her client’s greatest potential by cultivating a way of being that energizes, strengthens, and enlivens every aspect of their life, including their mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual health and well-being, relationships, finances, life experiences, creativity, and the desire for meaningful work.
We discuss Leah’s journey to embracing the calling of her creative side. She tells us about balancing her pragmatism with her more “irrational” life’s work, and how following the breadcrumbs of her inspiration has led to her running a multi-dimensional business that she finds incredibly fulfilling.
In this episode, we discuss:
- How intentional reflection on different roles helped Leah discern what she did and didn’t enjoy doing
- Leah realized how essential creativity is to her happiness
- A lot of us have a creative energy that’s calling us to be expressed, and not just in traditional artistic ways
- The fear of owning a creative and spiritual side in a world of lawyers
- Leah didn’t feel like fitting her creative side into small pockets on the side was enough
- Balancing pragmatism with taking a more creative/entrepreneurial path
- Leaning into what lit her up brought her back to life and seeing possibilities
- It’s ok to protect your dream and keep it to yourself for a while
- The importance of expanding your circle of influence to include more creative/alternative thinkers
- Leah’s creative work has evolved into The Art School, a holistic container for creativity
Connect with Megan!
Inner Wisdom Workshop: https://chiarawoods.com/inner-wisdom-workshop
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
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Connect with Leah!
Website: https://www.leahcb.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/leahcb1/The Art School Podcast: https://www.leahcb.com/category/podcast/
This week's episode is a little different. I teamed up with Chiara Woods (another former lawyer) for an episode that is airing on both this podcast and on hers, The Soulicitor Podcast.
We tackle the question of how lawyers and other left-brainers can engage with the world of woo.
Those of us in this category are grounded and practical people. We think critically, and aren’t off the deep end woo-woo…
But we’re curious. We’re open to thinking about the world and ourselves in new ways.
Many of our friends and clients seem intrigued by some of these modalities.
So - we decided to both have this conversation and create a workshop series.
A kind of primer for the woo-curious.
The workshop will be an education on the tenets of these modalities, and a discussion of how you might leverage them for your personal and professional growth.
We’re talking intuition & meditation, astrology, human design, hypnotherapy, and mediumship.
We start on May 31!
Inner Wisdom Workshop: https://chiarawoods.com/inner-wisdom-workshop
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Connect with Megan!
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Employee to Entrepreneur Quiz: https://bit.ly/employeetoentrepreneurtype
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
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Connect with Chiara!
Chiara's Website: hhttps://chiarawoods.com/
Dorna Moini is the CEO and founder of Gavel (formerly Documate), an easy-to-use platform for building client-facing legal apps. Prior to starting the company, Dorna was a litigator at Sidley Austin. There, in her pro bono practice, she worked with legal aid organizations to build a web application for domestic violence survivors to complete and file their paperwork, which led to the idea for Documate - to enable other attorneys to do the same in any area of law.
Dorna is on the Legal Services Corporation Emerging Leaders Council and a member of LAFLA's Advisory Board. She was named an ABA Legal Rebel and is on the Fastcase 50 list.
In this conversation, we discussed:
- Dorna’s initial interest in the law was human rights issues
- She ended up in BigLaw and actually enjoyed it!
- Dorna did a lot of pro bono work with domestic violence victims, which prompted her to develop a platform to make legal services more accessible to them; and that evolved to Documate
- Getting to the point where she couldn’t run the business and work at the law full-time
- Her firm offered for her to go part-time, but she decided she wanted to focus completely on her business
- Dorna felt comfortable taking a leap knowing she could always go back to practice
- She experienced a huge learning curve, but found it easy to self-educate with all the resources available
- Getting comfortable with what other people think of you making the jump from law to entrepreneurship
- The fear of regret was larger than the fear of failure
- The importance of building a team that deeply believes in the core mission
- You don’t need to go to business school to start a successful business
- Working hard feels different when your heart is fully in it
Connect with Megan!
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Employee to Entrepreneur Quiz: https://bit.ly/employeetoentrepreneurtype
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
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Connect with Dorna!
Gavel’s Website: https://www.gavel.io/
The truth is that building a business you care about does take time, and there's no way to have a clean, complete map of the process in advance that guarantees success.
And in this episode, I argue that it's still worth.
It has a lot to do with the fact that a heart-centered business is more than a job, it's a life project. And when you look at it like that, the journey is more than worth the cost.
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The Sick of Being Stuck Workshop Series (Starts October 12): https://megansmiley.com/sick-of-being-stuck-workshop
I am so excited to have Janelle Christian as my guest this week. Janelle tells us about her attempts to find her place within different law firm settings, and her ultimate realization that the law was just not for her. She initially launched an interior design firm, which led to people asking her how she started her business, which has ultimately led to her running a hugely successful business and branding strategy company.
There are so many nuggets of wisdom in this episode for anyone thinking about taking a leap into entrepreneurship.
Specifically, we discuss:
- How the pandemic brought up some existential questions about how Janelle was spending her life
- Trusting in your ability to figure things out and be resilient
- Immersing yourself with people doing what you want to do
- How Janelle publicly shared what she was doing, which helped get her business off the ground and grow organically
- Getting coaching support will help catapult you to the next level
- Janelle’s true north is the lifestyle she wants, not a particular business model
- Health insurance does not need to be a deal breaker
Connect with Megan!
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Employee to Entrepreneur Quiz: https://bit.ly/employeetoentrepreneurtype
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
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Connect with Janelle!
Janelle’s Website: https://janellenicole.co/
The truth is, the answer to what coaching looks like and who it’s for is much like the answer to most legal questions: it depends.
It does. It depends on the coach, their approach, the intended outcome, the timeline, etc.
And I know how confusing and unhelpful that can sound. In a world where you’re already lacking clarity and feeling overwhelmed, I’m hoping to help bring some transparency to it - at least with respect to how I work.
So, in an attempt to demystify what it looks like in this episode I discuss:
- What coaching is versus consulting, and how my work is a mix
- What kinds of goals and challenges my coaching is tailored to
- How to know if you’re a good fit for coaching
- How to identify if coaching isn’t for you, at least yet (just as important!)
- When it is time to explore coaching support
- The right energy and mindset to approach coaching with
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Connect with Megan!
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Employee to Entrepreneur Quiz: https://bit.ly/employeetoentrepreneurtype
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
Melanie Lippman, a style and image coach, and I co-hosted a webinar last month called Age & Authenticity: Work, Life & Style After 40. It was such a good conversation, I wanted to share it with all of you on the podcast.
In this conversation, we discuss:
- How to embrace, rather than resist, your evolution
- How to connect with your personal values and desires
- How to explore and experiment without judgment
- How to let go of other peoples' expectations and all the "shoulds" that weigh on you
- How it’s never too late to switch gears and honor your authentic self
Melanie sees this topic through the lens of personal style.
I see it with people who realize the practice of law (or traditional employment generally) isn’t aligned with who they are and how they want to live their next chapter.
It’s a really rich conversation that I know will resonate with so many of you.
Connect with Megan!
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Employee to Entrepreneur Quiz: https://bit.ly/employeetoentrepreneurtype
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
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Connect with Melanie!
Melanie’s Website: https://www.melanielippman.com/
Melanie’s Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/showupandbeseennow
Melanie’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melanielippman/
There's just something about back-to-school energy. There's a sense of hope and possibility. And it's a great opportunity to refocus and recommit to the big career changes you've been wanting to make.
In this episode, I share some ideas for how you can set yourself up for success and make this the year you get off the carousel of doom in your current career, find clarity, and make progress on the path to your new life.
Connect with Megan!
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
This week I share my thoughts on how we can buck the system and define success on our own terms. I think the new paradigm of success is centered on you being self-actualized and of true service, rather than being the best rule follower out there.
I also shared some wise, if salty, words from my mom.
It would be her birthday today.
I recently came across a submission she made to her alumni magazine for her 25th reunion. Parts made me cry. Parts made me smile. And parts made me think I really would have enjoyed her. At 11, she was still just “mom” - not a whole person with interesting world views…
Anyway - here she is wrapping up her entry to the alumni magazine with a mic drop challenge to traditional success:
“I suppose that in conclusion, I should mention how essential my Wellesley experience was in shaping my life. Actually, I don’t think it was. I went through the four years longing to be out, and I’m sure I wasn’t taking advantage of all the intellectual possibilities. But I have learned that there are a lot of smart, achieving people in the world who didn’t go to Wellesley or anyplace like it and I get worn down by the self-congratulating, ‘aren’t we all great, we went to Wellesley’ attitude that comes through so oppressively in the pages of the alumna magazine.”
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Connect with Megan!
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Employee to Entrepreneur Quiz: https://bit.ly/employeetoentrepreneurtype
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
Kristen Gyolai is the owner of The Law Office of Kristen Gyolai & Lure of Law. She started her career at a high-volume law firm. She enjoyed the practice of law but 5 years in, she was feeling burnt out and needed a change. After considering her options, she ultimately decided to start her own law firm. That has proven to be exactly the right fit for her. She is now also the founder of Lure of Law, where she helps show other attorneys how possible it is to start their own firm.
In this episode we discuss:
- Kristen realized that traditional law practice wasn’t the lifestyle she wanted to live
- She didn’t hate practice, but hated the system
- How Kristen decided to start her own firm
- Running the business and doing the legal work on her own didn’t worry her, but the fear of not finding clients and failing weighed heavily on her
- She decided she wanted this enough to fail trying
- There are some unknowns, but you can trust yourself to learn and figure things out
- Kristen tells us how she found her first clients
- There’s a growing trend of starting solo practices
Connect with Kristen!
Kristen Gyolai Website: https://kristengyolai.com/
Lure of Law Website: https://lureoflaw.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lureoflaw/
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Connect with Megan!
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Employee to Entrepreneur Quiz: https://bit.ly/employeetoentrepreneurtype
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
Lauren Kay is the host of the Legally Different Podcast, a Human Design expert, and a lawyer practicing on her terms. Lauren tells us about her journey of quitting the law in search of something more fulfilling. She identified freedom as her top value, and with that as a guiding principle, has been able to construct a portfolio career. She consults as a lawyer, which allows her to work the hours she wants from wherever she chooses. And she has been able to lean into her other interests, starting her podcast and Human Design business.
In this episode, we discuss:
- That Lauren followed her intuition to quit and travel
- How Lauren thought there was only one way to practice law, and it wasn’t for her
- The confusion of disconnecting from the label and identity of “lawyer”
- Lauren’s realization that freedom was her top value, and how that helped her create and follow aligned opportunities
- Finding legal work on a consulting basis
- How Lauren’s personal growth journey led her to understand her interests and purpose more
- Human Design basics
Connect with Lauren!
Legally Different Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/legally-different/id1536355826
Book a Human Design Session: https://calendly.com/legallydifferent/human-design-foundational-1-hour?back=1&month=2022-06
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/legallydifferent/
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Connect with Megan!
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Employee to Entrepreneur Quiz: https://bit.ly/employeetoentrepreneurtype
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
Mary Adkins is a former BigLaw litigator turned writer. She is author of the novels When You Read This (Indie Next Pick, “Best Book of 2019” by Good Housekeeping and Real Simple), Privilege (Today.com “Best Summer Read,” New York Post “Best Book of the Week”), and Palm Beach (recently named one of the New York Post’s “Best Books of 2021”). Her books have been published in 13 countries, and her essays and reporting have appeared in the New York Times, The Atlantic, Slate, and more. She is also a writing coach and founder of The Book Incubator, a 12-month program to write, revise, and pitch your novel or memoir.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Getting into law to make a positive impact, but then taking a BigLaw job
- Feeling misaligned with your work, and coming to not care about it at all
- Prioritizing taking writing classes even with a crazy schedule
- Taking a bridge job to allow the time and space to pursue more writing
- Realizing that a lot of the roadblocks to making a change aren’t as immovable as we tell ourselves they are
- How to build a writing career
- How the Enneagram plays out for lawyers and writers
Connect with Mary:
Website: https://maryadkinswriter.com/
Apply to The Book Incubator: https://www.thebookincubator.com/apply-novel-writing-program
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/adkinsmary/
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Connect with Megan!
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Employee to Entrepreneur Quiz: https://bit.ly/employeetoentrepreneurtype
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
Erika Cole built a thriving, very specialized law practice advising churches and other faith-based organizations. After running her own firm, she merged her practice and became a partner at a larger firm. She enjoyed the work. And from the outside, all the boxes of success were checked. But, something in her told Erika that this chapter was complete. She was ready for a new challenge. And she was ready for an even greater degree of freedom and flexibility. Leveraging the specialization she’d developed, she’s now serving a similar audience as she had in practice, but from a new angle. She runs a conference, hosts the Church Law podcast, and has launched a 6-week course for burned-out pastors.
I had the pleasure of having Erika in a program I ran last summer, and seeing the leap she’s made in less than a year is really inspiring. Not surprising to me (as you’ll hear), but definitely inspiring.
For anyone questioning whether you’re too deep into practice to leave now, or if there’s really time for a second act - this episode is for you.
Connect with Erika:
Website: https://www.erikacole.com/
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Connect with Megan!
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
Elena Deutsch is the founder and CEO of WILL (Women Interested in Leaving Law). With a background in executive and leadership coaching, Elena guides women through the process of discovering what they want, leveraging their strengths, and researching inspiring new possibilities. In this episode, Elena and I dive into our shared appreciation for a heart-centered approach to career planning. For so many people, their career dissatisfaction is not simply a question of finding a new job. It’s about taking a huge step back and really examining who you are and what you want.
In today’s episode, we discuss:
- How we define a heart-centered approach (to a job search or entrepreneurship)
- How this approach leads to more alignment and purpose
- Making internally informed decisions, rather than having your plans be externally dictated
- How to explore your creative or off-the-beaten-path interests
- How your lawyer brain gets in the way
- The mindset shifts people need to make to approach their career this way
- The Great Resignation
- The importance of community and support
Find Elena:
Elena’s website: https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com/
Book a Consultation with Elena: https://will-online.teachable.com/a/aff_0d5ngvx3/external?affcode=97439_ds-nv8nb
Free Gift: High Five Miracle Morning Checklist
https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com/high-5-miracle-morning/
FREE Masterclass: How to Leave (big) Law with Ease: https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com/leave-with-ease/
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Connect with Megan!
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
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Books referenced:
William Ury, The Power of a Positive No
Elizabeth Gilbert, Big Magic
I never would have guessed that I'd end up being an entrepreneur. I had some long-standing stories around how I just wasn't naturally built for it. I think so many of us have a certain idea of who built for entrepreneurial success and who isn't. But, there are different types of entrepreneurs and different kinds of businesses. So don't count yourself out just yet.
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Connect with Megan!
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
Jessica Medina is a former big law litigator and SEC investigator who is now an accredited financial counselor. She specifically helps big law attorneys who need a financial plan in place to allow them the freedom to explore new career options. Jessica also reassures us that it's possible to create a financial plan that supports a transition to entrepreneurship. Even if you have student loans!
In this episode, Jessica talks about:
- What exactly a financial advisor is, compared to other financial professionals
- There’s no shame if you’re not on top of your finances (that’s the case for a lot of people)
- The process Jessica takes her clients through
- Strategies for people with student loans
- How to plan specifically when you’re considering entrepreneurship
- It’s possible to plan, even when there are unknowns
- FIRE movement planning
- How much house you can afford
You can find Jessica at:
Craft Your Exit Plan Cheatsheet: https://www.jessicamedinallc.com/exit
Student Loan Repayment Series: https://www.jessicamedinallc.com/studentloanseries
Website: https://www.jessicamedinallc.com/biglawexit
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-medina-51040b19/ ~
Connect with Megan!
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
The #1 thing that is limiting your career options is your assumption that all of your thoughts are true. In this episode I talk you through how to question the reasons you dismiss certain options, like entrepreneurship.
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Connect with Megan!
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
In this episode, I question our historical definitions for success and challenge you to create a new, more personalized definition for yourself.
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Connect with Megan!
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com/
In this episode, I dive into what I mean when I talk about heart-centered businesses and why I think they are the real key to your freedom and fulfillment.
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Connect with Megan!
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://megansmiley.com/schedule-a-call
Website: https://www.megansmiley.com
Marni Blank began her career as a lawyer, working both for the Federal and NYC government. Ultimately realizing law was not her passion, she decided to switch paths to real estate while co-founding Blank Studio NYC and Blank Farmhouse with her sister. Marni continues to evolve her career, pursuing her many interests. As a lifelong learner and explorer, she believes that one does not need to be boxed into a single career or path, but that there is room to create a life that encompasses whatever brings you joy. She is an occasional food styling assistant, maintains her real estate license at Tungsten Property and enjoys continuing her education on emotional intelligence and counseling.
In this episode we discuss:
- Having work-life balance in government wasn’t enough for Marni
- She still woke up wishing her day away
- Marni followed her interest in real estate and got her license
- Her approach was to give it a shot - and let it take you where it will
- She has now launched two businesses with her sister and a third on her own, leaning into her multiple interest areas
- It’s ok to be multi-passionate and to evolve your career intuitively
- Human Design can be a great tool for permission and validation
You can find Marni at:
Blank Studio: https://www.blankstudionyc.com/
The Blank Farmhouse: https://www.theblankfarmhouse.com/
Work Related: https://www.work-related.co/
Well Plan: https://www.marniblank.com
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Connect with Megan!
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://bit.ly/yourcatalystcall
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Sigalle Barness is a former lawyer who is now the Chief Storyteller at Lawline, the leading online education platform for lawyers. After her experience in practicing law did not go as she expected, Sigalle transitioned to working at Lawline where she’s built an incredible career. She rose to COO, but after a health scare, decided to take a step back. That was when she created this new role for herself, which leverages her love of storytelling, writing, and creativity.
Sigalle’s story really highlights the ability to carve your own path, define success by your own metrics, and create a career you love.
You can find Sigalle at:
Lawyer’s Who Lead Podcast: https://lawyerswholeadpodcast.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sigalle/
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Connect with Megan!
Daydreams to Designs Private Podcast: https://bit.ly/daydreamstodesigns
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://bit.ly/yourcatalystcall
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Emily Hirsekorn is a former lawyer turned career confidence coach. After a stint in higher education, she decided to pursue a certification in professional coaching with iPEC. Specifically, Emily now helps lawyers and other ambitious professionals navigate their careers, develop as conscious leaders, and integrate work and life for faster success and greater fulfillment.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Emily followed her long-standing interest in psychology into coaching
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Emily wanted more control over her work and life, and realized self-employment was the best route for her
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The progression from thinking about a big jump to committing to it
- It’s possible to start while you’re still employed and before you’re fully “ready”
- Get clear on what your bottom line, sufficient income number is
- The early entrepreneurial experience
You can find Emily at:
Accessible Coaching Campaign: https://www.hirsekorncoaching.com/accessible-coaching
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilyhirsekorn/
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Connect with Megan!
Private Podcast Waitlist: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/6192f9743a0e5bcf6f54234d
Schedule a Catalyst Call: https://bit.ly/yourcatalystcall
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Seth Bradley is a former big law attorney who decided to follow his passion for real estate and create his own unique career path. He started his own firm, Bradley Law Limited, where he helps his clients with their real estate and asset protection needs. He has also become a real estate entrepreneur and an expert at creating passive income. Seth is also the host of the Passive Income Attorney Podcast, educating attorneys and other professionals on how to stop trading their time for money so that they can practice when they want to, not because they have to.
Seth talks to us about his evolution from medical school student to big law associate to independent law firm owner and entrepreneur. His story really shows how you can design a multi-faceted career around your interests if you have the courage to go for it.
You can find Seth at:
Free Gift - The Freedom Blueprint: https://sethpaulbradley.lpages.co/freedomblueprint/
Passive Income Attorney Website: https://passiveincomeattorney.com/
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/sethpaulbradley
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Connect with Megan!
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Lawyer’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Morgan Thomas Hall is an Account Executive at Twilio Inc. Morgan practiced in both a firm and for the government before realizing that it wasn’t just a job problem, it was a career problem. She went back to the drawing board to explore her interests, and found herself drawn to tech, and then specifically to tech sales. In addition to her day job, Morgan now also helps people transition from other careers into the tech industry.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Morgan had both firm and governmental jobs
- She considered trying to become a judge
- After giving it every possible shot, she accepted that it wasn’t just a job problem, it was a career problem
- Morgan initially considered some JD-preferred jobs as an obvious next step, but quickly realized that none of those appealed to her
- Morgan went back to the drawing board thinking about her interests
- She felt drawn to technology and the start-up world, particularly because of how different the mentality is to the legal world
- Morgan was worried her family would be disappointed, but also knew she had to make a change - she’s the one who has to live her life
- She told anyone who would listen that she was looking to get into tech, leading to connections and information
- Morgan kept coming back to tech sales, which leveraged transferable skills and checked a lot of boxes for her
- She had confidence in her capacity to learn because she was both committed and interested
- She found a way to effectively communicate her unique story as a positive to potential employers
- You will be your biggest hindrance, so learn to get out of your own way
You can find Morgan on…
https://www.linkedin.com/in/morganlthomas/
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Connect with Megan!
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Lawyer’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Marie Sotelo is a former lawyer turned freelance writer. After leaving the law, she leveraged her legal experience to become a go-to ghostwriter for entrepreneurs and chief executives in the law, compliance, and risk management space. She firmly believes that money is a means to an end—lifestyle freedom; and that you really CAN do anything with a law degree. She now helps other freelancers make smart money moves in their business and teaches other lawyers how to launch a writing side hustle.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Marie had been hoping to do environmental law in some capacity, but that didn’t pan out
- She ended up at the Customs & Border Protection Agency for a decade
- Working within such an entrenched bureaucracy eventually got too stifling
- She developed anxiety and depression (it’s not just big law that can impact you in that way)
- Her family moved and she decided to take time off to focus on raising her son
- She got into part-time freelance grant writing, testing it first with some volunteer jobs
- Marie worried about finances and wanted to do something that could sustain her family, if needed, but also be flexible
- She transitioned to content writing for law firms
- Freelance writing is a great thing to experiment with on the side, and build up some extra funds
- She’s built a life and career around her values and priorities
You can find Marie on…
https://www.facebook.com/groups/woolies
~
Connect with Megan!
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Lawyer’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Heather Eastwood is a public interest lawyer (with a brief detour into BigLaw) who found her long-term calling teaching public high school.
In today’s episode, we discuss:
- Heather came out of college feeling adrift without a clear path to follow
- She went to law school somewhat on a whim, because it was at least an extension of learning
- Heather ended up working for legal aid in Hawaii
- Her best professional experience was based on a highly collaborative environment
- Heather decided to move to the Bay Area and ended up having to take a firm job
- She felt deeply misaligned doing big corporate work
- Heather quit from her honeymoon
- She went back to the core of what she enjoyed in previous roles and her core values
- Heather decided to teach high school, and has been happily doing it for a decade
- The best piece of advice she ever got was “you are never stuck; you always have choices”
Connect with Megan!
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Lawyer’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Rachel Coll is a lawyer turned life coach. Although Rachel actually largely enjoyed practicing, she allowed herself to evolve and follow the threads that interested her. She ultimately felt called to get into coaching. It did require pushing through some discomfort and external judgment around the decision, but she has now built a successful full-time practice.
In this episode we discuss:
- Rachel largely enjoyed her practice first as a public prosecutor, then at the Board of Elections
- Rachel came to a place in her personal life where she hired a life coach, and that ended up changing her trajectory
- Rachel became a certified life coach on the side
- She didn’t leave law because she didn’t enjoy practice, but because she felt drawn more strongly to something else
- Although other people warned her otherwise, she always felt she could go back to law after coaching
- Rachel’s practice has evolved from relationship coaching for lawyers to more general practice around embracing your full self and owning it
- You don’t have to have a huge problem or official diagnosis to justify getting help
- Trust if you’re called to something that it’s worth pursuing
Connect with Megan!
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Lawyer’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
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You can find Rachel on…
https://www.rachelcollcoaching.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/rachel-coll-coaching/about/
https://www.instagram.com/rachelelizabethcoll/
David Johnson is a lawyer, writer and professor at Stanford Law School. He started his career working in house at tech companies, received a JSM in Law, Science, and Technology and now (among other things) teaches a course on design thinking as applied to negotiations at Stanford Law. Dave talks to us first about how he got into academia outside the tenure-track, and gives us some great tips around finding adjunct professor positions. Then Dave lays out the framework for using Design Thinking to help move you towards a fulfilling career shift.
In this episode, we discuss:
- How David got into academia as non-tenure track professor
- Tips on getting into adjunct teaching
- David started an online course (MOOC) that ended up getting licensed to Microsoft
- If you want to do something, don’t think too hard about where it’s taking you. Just do it.
- Specific tips on applying design thinking to career and personal development
- The importance of enduring, engaging, and embracing ambiguity
- Bill Gates’ quote: “People overestimate what they can do in 1 year, but underestimate what they can do in 10 years”
You can find David Johnson on . . .
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/djohnsonllc/
Blog: https://climate-activist.com/
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Connect with Megan!
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Lawyer’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Today’s episode is the audio from the webinar I hosted last week, The 5-Step Lawyer’s Escape Plan. It walks you through the roadmap that will take you from stuck and uninspired to having clarity and a plan.
The 8-week Lawyer’s Escape Plan group program begins next week, so if you’re interested in joining us, sign up before doors close on Friday, June 18 at midnight EDT!
8-Week Group Program: https://pages.megansmiley.com/lawyersescapeplan
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
On Thursday, June 10th at 7:30pm EDT, I'll be hosting a free live webinar. A replay will also be available.
I'll be walking you through the 5-Step Lawyer's Escape framework that you can follow to go from stuck and uninspired to confident and planning your move.
Sign up for the free webinar here: https://pages.megansmiley.com/webinar-signup-page
Risa Weaver-Enion is the founder and chief planner at Risa James Events, where she both plans weddings and offers product branding photography services. Risa went to law school thinking she’d get into entertainment law, but after her summer internship, quickly realized that there was a lot about actually working at a firm that she didn’t like. After some time in law and quasi-legal positions, a cross-country move proved to be an inflection point that prompted her to go back to the drawing board. She asked herself what she actually wanted to do, and that’s when she decided to start her wedding planning business.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Risa went to law school 12 years out of college because she was bored
- She decided she was interested in entertainment law from the IP angle
- She was counting down the days in her summer associateship, which was the first sign that she didn’t love the work
- She hated being beholden to other peoples’ timelines and unnecessary fire drills
- She ultimately took a job in an environmental compliance role in the UC-system
- When she moved to DC for her husband’s job, she had a hard time finding a legal job
- Not loving law anyway, she stopped to ask herself what she actually wanted to do
- She reached out to some local wedding planners and offered to work as an intern
- She started working as a paralegal part-time to help support her as she built her business
- Risa has started a product brand photography business as an exit strategy, because weddings can be grueling after a while
Challenge Sign-Up: http://bit.ly/4stepscloserchallenge
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Lawyer’s Escape Type Quiz: https://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Eimear McCann is the Head of Strategy at Summize, a legal tech company in the UK. Eimear left law school vowing not to practice. But, after a stint of freelance writing, she came back to the law and worked in immigration and human rights. She loved the work, but when her organization lost funding, she decided it was time to move on. She was intrigued by the technology space - it’s innovation, creativity, and flexibility. She followed that interest into legal tech.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Eimear originally decided not to practice law after school
- She was a freelance writer for a few years
- How particular the structure of the US legal education system is in keeping us trapped
- Eimear ended up circling back to law, working in immigration and human rights
- She had to go back to private practice after her organization’s funding was lost, and she realized just how draining it was
- At the same time, the immigration work had taken an emotional toll, and Eimear felt it was time to move on
- She found herself interested in legal tech because of its environment of innovation and flexibility
- Breaking into a new field may not be easy, but it’s about reframing your experience
- Eimear emphasizes importance of finding the kind of work that truly motivates you
Get on the VIP List for The Lawyer’s Escape Plan program: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/609057c10c791e4ece1d9104
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
In today's episode, I talk about how can take an overwhelming project (like eating an elephant or finding a new, fulfilling career) and break it into bite-sized, executable steps.
You can do hard things. It's just about getting started, strategizing, and taking one step after the other.
Get on the VIP Waitlist for The Lawyer’s Escape Plan program: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/609057c10c791e4ece1d9104
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Jen Berson left civil litigation after she “saw the light”, decided to pursue more creative endeavors, and founded her own business. She is now the President & Founder of Jeneration PR and the creator of the Agency Accelerator, where she teaches entrepreneurs how to launch, grow & scale a profitable PR & marketing agency. Jen talks about listening to and following her inner voice to a career she finds incredibly fulfilling and which allows her to also prioritize being a present parent.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Jen had a vague intention to get into entertainment law, and ended up in general litigation
- Went to a smaller firm, which allowed her more time to explore other interests
- Jen somewhat randomly reached out to help market a small fragrance business she liked
- Jen realized she enjoyed work with a tangible result, that had an immediate positive impact on a business
- She started exploring the various routes within PR, starting by working with a solo firm and then going out on her own
- She did battle with this idea that she left law because she couldn’t hack it, but she realized it was just a complete personality mismatch
- Jen wanted to build a life where she loved her work, made good money, and had time for family
Get on the VIP Waitlist for The Lawyer’s Escape Plan program: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/609057c10c791e4ece1d9104
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Jeneration PR: https://www.jenerationpr.com/
Agency Accelerator: https://www.jenerationacademy.com/agency-accelerator
I'm letting you in on the top 2 mistakes I see people make when trying to change careers.
First, they start by asking what job they think they can get, rather than asking what they want.
Second, they don't prioritize themselves and the process of figuring out the next best career step.
Get on the VIP Waitlist for The Lawyer’s Escape Plan program: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/609057c10c791e4ece1d9104
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Robert Ingalls is a former litigator turned founder of Lawpods, a podcast production company for lawyers. Robert tells us how he tried a variety of practice areas before realizing that law just wasn’t the right fit for him. While he still had a full-time job, Robert experimented with a number of business ideas and followed the path of his interests. That ultimately led Robert to starting the company he runs today. Robert reminds us of the importance of expanding your circle of influence beyond lawyers who will tell you that your ideas aren’t realistic and this path they don’t understand won’t work out.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Robert went to law school to practice criminal law, which he then actually did
- But, after realizing it wasn’t the right fit, Robert transitioned to civil litigation
- He enjoyed trial, but the rest of the package was unappealing
- The stress of the environment started really weighing on him
- Robert then moved into estate planning. It was less stressful, but also more boring
- Listening to a podcast made it click that he could actually do anything he wanted
- Robert realized he needed to leave law, but wasn’t sure what the next thing would be
- Played around with a few different business ideas, and started his own podcast
- Robert then started helping other lawyers launch podcasts
- He battled with the thought “who am I to do this random thing?” and found it hard to tell his network he was taking such a different path
- Robert went to a podcast conference, where he was surrounded by people making a living in this field
- It can be transformative to be around people who believe in the possibilities rather than only seeing the pitfalls
- When you enjoy what you do, you don’t mind working hard
Get on the VIP Waitlist for The Lawyer’s Escape Plan program: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/609057c10c791e4ece1d9104
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Lawpods: https://lawpods.com/
You know those people who seem to just always have things work out? From career to relationships? They're just "lucky."
Turns out it's not magic. There are some habits these people have that put them in the path of luck more frequently:
- Putting themselves out there
- Listening to their gut
- Having a positive attitude and believing that good things are coming
- Resilience
Get on the VIP Waitlist for The Lawyer’s Escape Plan program: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/609057c10c791e4ece1d9104
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Rob Bertman is a senior consultant at Student Loan Planner, and a CFA and CFP. Rob talks to us about how it’s possible to manage your student loans around your life, rather than have them dictate what your options are. We get into how it’s even possible to have a runway for starting your own business while carrying loans. If there’s one message I hope people get from this is that you aren’t as trapped as you may think, and you do have options. You just have to tackle the issue head-on.
In this episode we discuss:
- Loan repayment options
- The opportunity cost of your money
- The importance of looking at real numbers; you might actually end up better by going the loan forgiveness route
- Setting a budget can be uncomfortable, but it allows you to execute a plan (something you probably want and are naturally good at)
- The risks and potential upsides of legislative changes
Get on the VIP Waitlist for The Lawyer’s Escape Plan program: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/609057c10c791e4ece1d9104
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Student Loan Planner: https://www.studentloanplanner.com/
Lisa Rosen is the Chief Operating Officer at SustainCERT. After starting her career in litigation, Lisa followed her interest in environmental issues to an in-house legal position at a non-profit and ultimately transitioned into an operations role there. Lisa’s story shows how your legal experience is seen as valuable for a non-legal position and that by taking that first step, you put yourself on the path for new, more interesting opportunities to present themselves.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Lisa felt that the conflicts of interest inherent in the billable hour system was misaligned with her values and integrity
- Lisa followed her interest in environmental issues into carbon credit work
- Lisa found work that was intellectually challenging, but wasn’t technically practicing law
- Eventually, her position evolved into a general counsel role
- Lisa raised her hand when the Chief Operating Officer role opened up and transitioned to that
- The importance of resourcefulness
- Failure is part of the path to your goal
- Lisa has come to realize that what she enjoys is operating a company
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Francesca Chang is a lawyer turned marketing professional, tech recruiter, published travel writer, and now life coach for lawyers. Francesca tells us about leaving practice to explore various other career opportunities. It’s a great example of what can evolve when you don’t tie yourself to a preconceived notion of what your career might look like.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Francesca went to law school because of interest in social justice
- Coming out of law school, she worked for solo practitioner which she didn’t love
- Francesca started looking for other jobs, and didn’t limit it to legal positions
- She was comfortable with change, but was worried about other people’s opinions about leaving practice - particularly lawyers
- She ended up in a business development and marketing role for legal services
- Francesca then moved to tech recruiting and Ediscovery software marketing
- She was on a journey to find the right match, and wasn’t averse to trying different things
- Francesca moved to Taiwan when husband was relocated and had to rethink her career yet again
- She started travel writing and worked as a tour scout
- Francesca has now also begun a life coach business for lawyers
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Francesca’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/attorney_on_a_journey/
Are you living your life by design or by default? As crazy as the world is right now, it's a great opportunity to move forward more purposefully.
Dr. Aisha is a former practicing physician turned coach specializing in helping high achievers create change in their lives. Her core message is that in order to make meaningful change in our lives, we need to slow down long enough to get off autopilot and connect to our real thoughts and desires. The world can be very loud and distracting and often confuses us with respect to finding our happiest path.
In this episode, we discuss:
- A lot of family and social pressure around leaving medicine
- Leaving her home and her profession meant letting go of a portion of who she was
- Her passion was coaching people informally when she was still practicing
- At 30, Dr. Aisha was working part-time minimum wage jobs in Canada to take the time to figure out her new path
- Total clarity didn’t come all at once; it came bit by bit
- The world is very loud, so it’s hard to know what you really want
- We’re running on autopilot most of the time
- The problem of feeling misaligned in life is solved by looking inwards, not outwards
- One way to start reconnecting with yourself is to disrupt your energy at the start of the day before you’re even fully awake (trampoline, hula hoop, dancing, anything that is a pattern interrupt)
- It may take a while to go through this process, but time is going to pass anyway - may as well be making progress
- It’s ok to change at any age; we are in constant evolution
- “You can only connect the dots looking backwards” - Steve Jobs
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Dr. Aisha’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/changespecialist-co/
Rho Thomas is a trademark lawyer at Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP, a financial coach for lawyers, and the mom of two young boys. Rho tells us how she has a vision for her life that includes working as a lawyer, pursuing her side business, and being a present mom. Part of that journey has been creating more financial freedom by tackling the substantial school debt she and her husband accrued in becoming a lawyer and doctor, respectively. It has also meant setting boundaries at work and holding to them. Rho’s story is a great example of what it looks like to be purposeful and committed to creating the life you want.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Rho enjoys practicing trademark law, but it isn’t her sole priority
- Rho moved to a reduced hour schedule when she became a mom
- She wanted to work even fewer hours, but had to balance the finances first
- The school debt between her and her doctor husband was significant
- The vision of the life they want has kept them motivated to pay it down
- She found examples of people doing this, which proved to her that it’s possible
- Rho started a blog about their debt journey, which has evolved into her starting her own financial coaching business
- The side business organically grew out of her natural interests
- Rho has been successful at setting boundaries at work so she doesn’t burn out
- The pandemic has shown her she can slow down, have her business, be a mom, and still practice
Rho’s Website: https://www.rhothomas.com/coaching/
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
In today's episode, I talk about Human Design, hustle & flow, and why it's ok to be more of a sprinter than a marathoner.
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Human Design Chart: https://www.jovianarchive.com/get_your_chart
Kat Johnston spent over a decade between BigLaw litigation and being in-house at a Silicon Valley company. The intensity of working in those environments and the stress took their toll. So, Kat started to prioritize taking better care of herself. Ultimately, as her focus and priorities shifted, Kat decided to leave practice and has taken the past 2 years off to give herself time to reset, explore, and find the next right step for her career journey.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Working hard along the path isn’t the same as working hard at figuring out a path
- Kat enjoyed the clarity of mission working in-house and the ability to be more herself, have room to innovate and be creative
- In-house practice at a Silicon Valley company is still an intense place to work
- Kat was really burned out physically and emotionally
- She realized that she had to take self-care more seriously and set real boundaries at work
- You can start being the person you want to be before you leave your job
- The more she took care of herself, the more it made her question “what are we all doing?”
- As she shifted, she was more out of sync with her colleagues
- For Kat, she came to decide that she didn’t need to have the answers before leaving her job
- She left with no plan for a year - other than that she’d planned out the money piece with her financial advisor
- She sold her home, sold most of her things, and traveled for a year
- The first year was not about figuring it out - it was about allowing herself to reset and live differently
- She then spent another year traveling the US in an airstream, but more focused on thinking about next steps
- She’s now in the early stages of building her own wellness & nature retreat
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Kat’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wildkatwandering/
We all want to be able to sit in a room, research our career options, and come up with a plan we're 100% confident in before taking action.
But here's the thing: you can't wait for total confidence and clarity to take action because it's the action taking that grows your confidence and clarity.
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Vanessa Kuljis is the Founder of BloomRise LLC and a GALLUP Certified Strengths Coach. She works with lawyers and other professionals to discover individual talents, own their unique value proposition, and move toward setting and achieving authentic goals. Vanessa was previously the Director of Professional Development and Leadership Initiatives at the University of Miami Law School and, before that, a litigation associate.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Vanessa went straight through from undergrad to law school into a litigation practice
- As the child of immigrants, the idea of being a professional working in a big fancy building seemed like the ultimate achievement
- Vanessa realized she really wanted more interaction with people, and more emphasis on relationship-building in her work
- She also started to realize she wanted to build something, she just wasn’t sure what yet
- Vanessa moved to NY for a year for her husband’s job and decided to explore other interests rather than practice
- Ultimately, Vanessa went into higher education, working in student services at a law school
- As part of her job, Vanessa got the Gallup CliftonStrengths certification
- She ended up consulting on strengths on the side and realized this was the business she wanted to build
- In leaving her job to do her new business full-time, Vanessa realized how true it is that courage isn’t absence of fear, it’s taking the leap despite your fear
- It may look from the outside like a move was sudden and easy, but it’s just because you don’t see all of the the thought and processing going on behind the scenes
- Strengths coaching walks you through 3 stages: awareness, appreciation, application
- You often can’t see your strengths because they are so inherent to who you are
- It’s a much higher return to invest in your strengths than try to improve on your weaknesses
Vanessa’s Website: www.BloomRiseCo.com
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Being a lawyer can make you feel very one-dimensional. Finding the time and space to explore your interests will both make you a happier person in the moment, and help you figure out that elusive right next step in your career.
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Vicki Huebner is the Director of Online Legal Programs and an Adjunct Professor at Santa Clara University School of law. She is also the founder of Upskilled Canines, a dog training business. Vicki spent a number of years in litigation, from a clerkship, to a big firm, to a smaller firm. She realized that practice did not light her up the way she saw it do for some people she worked with. On somewhat of a whim, she took an opportunity to work in career services at a law school. 25 years later, she’s still working in higher education. But, she has simultaneously pursued her real passion for dog training and started her own business. She figured why wait until retirement to start doing what she really loves.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Vicki’s parents had pushed her towards law as a stable and lucrative career
- Vicki’s practice ranged from a clerkship, to BigLaw litigation, to small firm litigation
- Vicki saw the partners at the small firm be so passionate about the work and having fun
- That’s when she realized law practice was probably just not her thing
- Somewhat serendipitously, Vicki came across a job in law school career services
- Although it was a bit of an impulsive move and Vicki thought she might return to practice in some form, she’s now 25 years into higher education
- She enjoys the scholarly environment
- At some point, Vicki felt she was outgrowing career services, but was able to pivot to a more strategic area of the law school in online program development
- Vicki realized she liked the business strategy and operations, which is what she’d liked from the small firm
- Higher education can be very slow to evolve and bureaucratic
- Vicki followed her passion for dogs and started training them and volunteering at the humane society
- Her natural talent for dog training came through, and she now has a small side business
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Working in your zone of excellence can be the enemy of finding true fulfillment at work. I know it can be very hard to even think of what else you'd do besides being a lawyer. Working to uncover your Zone of Genius is one step in that process.
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Elena Deutsch is the founder and CEO of WILL (Women Interested in Leaving Law). With a background in executive and leadership coaching, Elena guides women through the process of discovering what they want, leveraging their strengths, and researching inspiring new possibilities.
In today’s episode, we discuss:
- Many of Elena’s clients want to do work that’s more meaningful to them
- Try saying “I do lawyering” versus “I am a lawyer”
- We are all creative, we just have to access it
- The power of the StrengthsFinder test
- The concept of zone of genius
- We often don’t recognize our own strengths because they are so natural to us
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Elena’s website: https://womeninterestedinleavinglaw.com/
Jay Harrington is the Co-Founder and Chief Strategist at Harrington Communications. Jay went from a big law bankruptcy practice to a portfolio career that spans from marketing & PR to training & coaching to book author. Jay highlights two things I think are so important. First, you can design your life. You can pick the work that supports the life you want to live, rather than live the lifestyle demanded by a certain job. Second, he talks about making yourself your own best client and committing time to pursuing your priorities, whatever you decide they are. Without that, you’re stuck in a reactive mode that makes it very difficult to move forward in a meaningful way.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Jay had a relatively positive experience as a big law associate, but found he had the entrepreneurial bug
- Jay jumped into a marketing business with his wife, a graphic designer
- The company provided him with an outlet for more writing, which he enjoyed
- The benefits of taking a chance before the golden handcuffs and family obligations take full hold
- During the Great Recession, as a hedge, Jay started doing some bankruptcy work again, which snowballed into a small law firm
- 3 years into that, he burned out on doing both law and marketing
- The way Jay decided which route to take was by deciding what he wanted his life to look like
- Jay and his wife decided their priority was moving to a small town where they could get outdoors often. So, that led him to lean into the marketing business, but do it remotely
- Jay now has portfolio career of marketing, consulting, trainings, and writing
- Find the time to prioritize yourself, or you’ll stay stuck
Lawyer’s Escape Plan Quiz: http://bit.ly/lawyersescaperoutequiz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq/
Jay’s Website: https://www.hcommunications.biz/
A gratitude practice will not only make you feel happier on a day-to-day basis, but it will help transform you into the kind of person who sees possibilities, rather than limitations.
Lawyers’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq
Geoffrey Stein is a litigator turned portrait artist. Geoffrey initially went into the law because it was something reasonably stable to do with a liberal arts degree. Although he wasn’t passionate about it, he found himself at the top of his class and going down the standard firm route. He practiced in a few different arenas, while trying to incorporate more and more of his long-standing love for art. Eventually he decided to go all-in and leave the law to be a full time painter.
In this episode we discuss:
- Art was always a part of Geoffrey’s life
- Geoffrey knew that big law wasn’t for him
- Geoffrey tried to combine his practice with his interest in art for many years
- Eventually Geoffrey went all in on his art career
- It was a gradual process to identify fully as a painter, not a lawyer
Lawyers’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq
Geoffrey’s Website: https://www.geoffreystein.com/
In today's episode I talk about identifying your unique strengths through the Clifton StrengthsFinder test, and why this will be more useful in helping you identify next steps than just trying to repackage your skills.
Lawyers’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq
Alli Elmunzer is the Attorney & Founder of Influencer Legal, a virtual law firm helping entrepreneurs navigate the legal side of online business. Alli started her career in commercial real estate. But after becoming quickly disillusioned, she left to be a wedding photographer. Alli was a photographer for 6 years. During that time, she also helped other creative business owners with legal issues on the side. She found that the legal work, done on her terms, was a good fit. She is now able to run her law practice the way that suits her and still be immersed in the world of entrepreneurship that she loves.
- Alli was pretty clear from the beginning that she wasn’t happy in firm life
- In the process of planning a wedding, Alli fell in love with photography
- Alli initially gained experience by offering to work for photographers for free
- She was able to build her business before quitting
- As life evolved, she didn’t want to work on the weekends and started considering another pivot
- She was able to jump back into practice helping other creative business owners
- Alli considers herself a lawyer-entrepreneur
- Working for herself makes all the difference
- The traditional law industry is so antiquated, it’s become a bad fit for more people
Lawyer’s Escape Call: http://bit.ly/escapecall
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq
Alli’s Website: https://www.influencerlegal.co/
In this episode, I talk about how big tech companies know that well-designed spaces can reduce stress, improve cognitive function, and enhance mood, creativity, and productivity. They go to great lengths to incorporate this knowledge into their office space.
I also give a few tips on how you can leverage this information to get some of these same benefits, even when you work in a boring gray box.
Stacey Wang is the Director of Product Marketing at Ironclad, Inc. Stacey went from Harvard Law to being a BigLaw litigator, along the traditional path. But a few years in, she started to feel unfulfilled and started assessing what, specifically, wasn’t working for her. She realized that the practice of law was stifling her creativity. She also had an epiphany that you only live once, so she better make it count. So, she pushed past the identity crisis and fear and landed a job at a start-up. From there, she’s been building a career in start-ups that she loves.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Stacey reflects on how her experience in the early years of practice were colored by being very young
- You can be dissatisfied in law even if you don’t have horror stories
- She felt like her creativity was stifled
- Her identity as a lawyer and the weight of her loans held her back for a little while
- Stacey ultimately reframed things and realized she was more concerned about losing time than the financial challenges
- Stacey used the Designing Your Life book exercises for self-observation and discovery
- She found a start-up company she liked and then applied to an open job she thought she could fit into
- The key is knowing you can learn quickly. If so, you’ll be fine in any new position
- Don’t just jump into the next thing without the reflection on who you are and what you’re really looking for
Illegal Design: Leaving Law made Fun Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/leavinglawmadefun
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq
In today's episode I talk about the importance of broadening your circle of influence. If you're always surrounded by lawyers sticking to the traditional path, it's going to continue to make it hard to see different perspectives and opportunities. So, spend time with people who expand your world, not limit it.
Leaving Law Made Fun Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/leavinglawmadefun
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyesq
Amy Impellizzeri is a former big law corporate litigator who leveraged a sabbatical opportunity to do freelance writing for a start-up publisher. She then permanently left practice to lean into her interest in writing and is now, as she says, a writer who used to be a lawyer rather than a lawyer who writes. She’s published 5 fiction novels and one non-fiction book, “Lawyer Interrupted”. In 2022, “How to Leave the Law”, her second non-fiction book with co-Author Liz Brown, will be released.
We have a great conversation about creativity, limiting beliefs, and prioritizing taking the time for exploration. For anyone who has thought about chucking it all to become a writer, I think you’ll love this interview.
In this episode we discuss:
- Amy started in a smaller law firm, then moved to big law for a decade thinking that’s what you do if you have the chance
- Having kids was a respite from a grueling practice
- Amy was offered a 1 year sabbatical offer during the great recession
- Amy used the year to gain clarity on her next step
- Amy did freelance writing for a start-up publisher
- Law is basically designed to stamp out your creative and innovative sides
- Amy reconnected with her interest in writing
- A legal background helps you in so many business ventures
- Craft exit plan by spending a year of intentional exploration
- You have time - you just have to draw boundaries and take it
Illegal Design Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/illegaldesign
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyinteriors/
Amy’s Website: https://www.amyimpellizzeri.com/
In today's episode I talk about 3 reasons why you should prioritize play in your life:
- Calms the mind
- Sparks creativity
- Connects you to what you enjoy doing
I also talk about the 4 main types of play:
- Physical
- Ritual
- Imaginative
- Discovery
Illegal Design Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/illegaldesign
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyinteriors/
Vanessa Perlman is a corporate attorney and has mixed freelance legal work with running her own travel business. She gives us a great example of how building a career isn’t an all-or-nothing endeavor. You can mix and match. You can go back and forth. You can do what makes most sense for each season of your life. As lawyers, we often put so much pressure on making a change, and Vanessa shows us that we can lighten up on ourselves a bit and it will still all work out.
- Vanessa ended up doing freelance legal work
- Freelance work opened up time and space to start a travel business
- Vanessa incorporated her interests by including a global health philanthropic element in her travel business
- You don’t have to be all or nothing in your approach to exploring your interests
- Vanessa has balanced exploring different career options with the reality that she’s her own sole breadwinner
- It’s ok if something ends up not working - it’s all still a worthwhile experiment
- Let go or be dragged
Illegal Design Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/illegaldesign
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/megansmileyinteriors/
Kim Nicol is a lawyer turned mindfulness and leadership coach. Kim tells us about how she explored her natural interests and that took her into a new field. It was scary, but also enlightening to realize that people actually make money outside of the legal and corporate world. Kim has created a portfolio career for herself. Among other things, she specifically works with lawyers on wellness and mindfulness. It can be an important tool to calm your brain long enough to get clarity on whether you hate practice or just hate your environment. Kim is a great example of someone who’s found work that really aligns with her personality and strengths. And she gives us some hope about managing the stresses of being a lawyer.
In today’s episode we discuss:
- Being good as a litigator was going to run against Kim’s natural grain
- Being a lawyer is like becoming a professional pessimist...possibly negative
- Competition isn’t a natural strength for everyone
- Kim initially landed in legal publishing
- The next career pivot was the scary part for Kim
- Kim’s interest in mindfulness, yoga, and fitness guided her next steps
- Kim realized people make money outside the legal/corporate world
- Kim’s curiosity and confidence combined into courage
- We have the skill of advocacy, we need to start advocating for ourselves
- Kim has created a portfolio career of mindfulness, leadership, and life coaching
- Kim specifically teaches continuing legal education on wellness and mindfulness
Illegal Design Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/illegaldesign
Kim’s upcoming CLE: https://www.lawline.com/course/the-role-of-attorney-wellbeing-in-your-legal-practice
Kim’s Website: https://kimnicol.com/
In today's episode, I give you 5 tips on designing your home office:
- Quality Chair
- Lighting
- Declutter & Organize
- Plants & Nature
- Personalize
Illegal Design Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/illegaldesign
Sarah Cottrell is my podcasting soul sister. She is a former big law litigation associate who, after 10 years of practice in various forms and paying off her law school loans, moved into the work she’d been wanting to do for years. She launched the Former Lawyer Podcast in August 2019 (within a week of this podcast’s launch!) and now also runs the Former Lawyer Collaborative.
In today’s episode we discuss:
- Sarah and I geek out on our shared brain
- So many of us are under-educated on the realities of being a lawyer
- In applying to smaller firms, Sarah realized she didn’t want those jobs either
- Sarah’s anxiety disorder made her a great lawyer, in many ways, but also made the law a particularly bad fit
- Sarah left big law and took a job making 1/6th what she made
- Eventually, Sarah went on to become an appellate court staff attorney
- This was the best legal job she could have had, so it made it extra clear she didn’t want to practice at all
- Sarah and her husband had a long-term plan for her to leave the law completely, after paying off their loans
- Sarah explored her interests in the name of figuring out who she was, if not specifically for figuring out her next career
- Side hustles work for some people, not everyone
- Sarah left her job to start the podcast and business that had been in her head for years
- Sarah also runs the Former Lawyer Collaborative, a confidential community supporting lawyers moving into new careers
Illegal Design Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/illegaldesign
Former Lawyer Website: https://www.formerlawyer.com/
In the Illegal Design mini-episodes, I will go deeper on how we get unstuck and actually design a purposeful and fulfilling life.
Join the Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/illegaldesign
Annette Choti left a 20 year career at the Department of Labor to start her own legal marketing firm. Annette tells us how she came to make a shift, the moment of serendipity that led her to her new career. She also tells us about all the rewards and challenges of running your own business.
- Annette worked for Department of Labor for 20 years
- The stable lifestyle of the job was worth the trade-offs for her
- After 20 years, when she started thinking about a shift, she didn’t know what her options would be
- In a moment of serendipity, Annette heard about legal marketing writing
- Annette built a side business, which for her was a reasonable balance between risk and stability
- She baby stepped to a new career
- Going down this road lead Annette to learn all sorts of new skills in digital marketing
- There’s still a long time left in your career. Even if you’re 20 years in!
Illegal Design Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/illegaldesign
Megan Smiley Interiors: https://www.megansmileyinteriors.com
Law Quill: https://lawquill.com
Today’s episode is a little different. I don’t have a guest. Instead, I’m filling you in on what has been going on in my life and career. I get into the whole process, what I’m doing now, and what I see on the horizon. I also talk about my thoughts on building a purposeful life and my new free Facebook Group designed to help us do that together.
In the episode I talk about:
- Getting stuck in my second career
- Having no idea how to start to take the next step
- Getting help thinking through my confusion
- Considering ayahuasca on the advice of a career coach
- Doing all of the things trying to find a clue to my next career step
- Identifying my core values
- Starting and then pivoting a new interior design business
- My Illegal Design Facebook Group (free)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/illegaldesign
https://www.megansmileyinteriors.com
Shunta Grant is a former litigator turned business owner. When it became clear that practicing law wasn’t a fit for her, she leaned into her side project making hair bows. She grew that business successfully and leveraged all of her new business experience to launch her current product, The Best Today Guide. Shunta tells us about the power of letting go of the expectations you had for yourself and creating a career around your life, rather than the other way around.
In this episode we discuss:
- Being focused on checking all the boxes
- Gaining clarity that your goals and priorities may have shifted
- Letting go of your identity as a lawyer
- Embracing your new identity
- Finding a more aligned career felt like a weight lifted
- It’s an evolution finding what feels right
- Building your business around your life, not the other way around
Shunta Grant’s Website: https://shuntagrant.com/
Podcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/
Podcast Website: https://www.thelawyersescapepod.com/
If you ever feel like you’re drawn to something that just isn’t “realistic”, think about Jess’s story. It's hard to make a bigger leap than from international human rights at the Hague to stand-up comedy.
In this episode we discuss:
- The limited view of career options many of us have
- Jess’s career in international criminal law
- At the end of the day, practicing law is still practicing law - even in an interesting context
- Looking down the career path, Jess realized she wasn’t excited to practice forever
- Watching Jon Stewart inspired Jess to combine her interests in politics and comedy
- She took a huge risk and went all in on comedy
Jess Salomon’s Website: https://jesssalomon.com/
Podcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/
Podcast Website: https://www.thelawyersescapepod.com/
Jessica Medina is a former big law litigator and SEC investigator who now runs her own financial coaching business. She helps big law attorneys who need a financial plan in place to allow them the freedom to explore new career options. Basically - she helps people avoid or remove those pesky golden handcuffs so many of us get caught in. Jessica tells us about her own journey of 14 years in practice, 5 and 10 year financial plans, and finding the right fit for her next career move. I think her story is very relatable in that she identifies herself as a risk-averse person. But, just because you value security or your timeline may be a bit longer does not mean you can’t be making a plan to open up options for your future self.
In today’s episode we discuss:
- How a big firm career seemed like the only responsible option right out of law school as a single mother of twins
- It’s great if a firm supports parents with free, onsite childcare, but there are still always challenges of balancing work and family time
- When faced with the possibility of partnership, Jessica was forced to admit to herself that she didn’t want to continue down that road
- Working for the SEC was a big improvement in terms of work/life balance, but also made it clear that practicing law was not Jessica’s forever dream
- It’s hard to decide what to do when you’ve spent your whole life chasing one career path
- In thinking through possible alternative careers, intuition told her that financial counseling (a “fun” hobby for her) felt right and aligned
- It was hard to walk away from practice - both for prestige and financial security
- Jessica did this on her own timeline, one that made sense to her
- Entrepreneurship works different muscles, but you can learn new skills
- Jessica now helps big law associates who are both “underwhelmed and overwhelmed” by their situation
- Having a financial plan in order allows you to think more broadly about new career path options
- Talk to people outside of your immediate work environment; include non-lawyers in your friend group
- Competitive karaoke singers remind you that life doesn’t all have to be so serious
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
Guest Website: https://www.jessicamedinallc.com/
Charlotte Smith is a former UK employment attorney who now runs her own business coaching lawyers in her Life Design for Lawyers program. You can also check out her podcast, Limitless Lawyer. Charlotte tells us about her journey away from practicing law. She followed the breadcrumb path of her interests and intuition to her new career. It wasn’t always smooth, but these paths often aren’t. Charlotte’s core message to lawyers is that anything is possible, and you should design your life around what you want - rather than letting life happen to you.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Charlotte was on the traditional path in employment law, finding success
- When faced with the opportunity to be made partner, she stopped for the first time to ask “is this what I actually want?”
- Charlotte was a food blogger on the side, which exposed her to a different, creative universe
- A move to California from the UK gave Charlotte an opportunity to reconsider her path
- Pulling together her various interests, she landed as a partner at a creative agency
- Finding that position was serendipitous: but that only happens when you’ve laid some groundwork
- The transition was not all smooth sailing; clarity does not always come in a straight line
- Charlotte did deep dive on her purpose; worked with a career coach
- It is important to identify and push through limiting beliefs
- Life is too short to be unhappy or to play small
- Charlotte highly valued autonomy - and realized she had to design a life with that in mind
- She started her own coaching business - Life Design For Lawyers
- Remember the mantra: Everything is possible
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
Guest Websites:
- https://www.charlotte-smith.com/
- https://limitless-lawyer.com/
Jordan Hellman is the Senior Director of Strategic Partnerships at Care Partners at Home. After working in litigation in a few different environments, Jordan decided it wasn’t a context problem - he just didn’t enjoy practicing law. So, he leaned into his strength in relationship-building to create a new career in sales and business development.
- Sometimes your best laid plans for your career don’t pan out
- Pay attention to the things you enjoy about your job for clues
- Some people make moves in big jumps, and others in smaller steps
- Even sun and surfing in California doesn’t always make practicing tolerable :)
- Entrepreneurship often requires even more hours than law, but if you enjoy what you’re doing - it’s much less painful
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
Dr. Jan Newman is a licensed clinical psychologist, certified executive coach, and former Big Law attorney who works with multi-passionate high achievers who want to level up their lives.
Jan shows us how to take a scientific, systematic approach to leaving law and finding a new career. This process is an experiment: outline your ideas, try them out, learn from the feedback. Don’t expect to have all the answers all at once. But, if you stick with it - you’ll eventually find a good career fit.
Jan has very generously offered 3 free 45-minute sessions to listeners who reference this podcast. So, I’d highly encourage you to jump on that!
In this episode, we discuss:
- Jan knew from Day 1 that law school wasn’t the right fit
- “You really don’t have time to think about why you’re there, you’re just trying to survive”
- The law firm bubble leads you to feel like this just what working life is
- Don’t listen to nay-sayers who haven’t realized there are alternative paths yet
- Networking and mentorship can make all the difference
- Test out different options/interests and learn from the feedback
- Jan actively tried out psychology, wedding photography, and dive instructing to learn what would be the best long-term fit
- It’s ok if the first experiment doesn’t solve all the problems
- Some issues can be solved by a better practice area or geographic fit
- You can make money doing something you enjoy
- Thinking through the costs and benefits of an additional degree
- Don’t let the stress and dissatisfaction grow; it can become a more wide-spread problem
- You have to get your mindset, thoughts, and emotions under control before having the space to dive into larger questions
Jan Newman Coaching: jannewmancoaching.com
Jan Newman Resources: https://drjannewman.com/resources
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
Heather Hubbard is a former Intellectual Property and Entertainment lawyer who practiced for 10 years before being drawn by her unique talents into starting her own personal and professional development company. She tells us about her journey out of practice, the limits we place on ourselves as lawyers, and tools we can leverage to help us move ourselves forward.
In this episode, we discus:
- Heather wasn’t miserable, she just realized there was a better fit in another roll
- It can take some time and reflection to realize you have unique strengths; something you may think everyone is good out might actually be your particular zone of genius
- Overthinking a change may keep you stuck
- Law practice can be seen as a building block rather than something you abandoned
- Lawyers make it so hard on ourselves
- We are black and white thinkers, which puts undue pressure on us to find the “right” answers
- Mindfulness and thought work help people reframe their thinking
- You need to give yourself time and space to gain perspective
- You’ll take your baggage with you, so do the work upfront
- Heather offers a variety of services and also hosts a podcast: Hustle & Flow
Heather Hubbard: https://www.heatherjoyhubbard.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
Summer Challenge!! Today’s episode is a little different. Instead of having a guest, I wanted us to take some of the inspiration we’ve gotten here and elsewhere and turn it into action. We can consume advice, wisdom, and ideas until we’re blue in the face. But, we need to translate that into action in our lives if we want to see real change. I think the important thing is that you don’t have to take one big, dramatic step. The idea is to just start showing up for yourself and doing the small things that ultimately add up to big things. So - in July and August - let’s all pick one thing we’re going to actually do. It could be hiring a career coach, taking a class on any topic of interest, starting a meditation habit, etc. I walk through a few ideas in this episode - but the world is your oyster. Most importantly - just pick something and do it! And I’d love to hear what you guys are doing - so shoot me a note!
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
Alex Su is a former big law litigator who now does business development and sales within the legal technology industry. Currently, he is the Director of Business Development at Evisort, an AI-powered contract intelligence platform. Alex talks about taking the time to reflect on his interests and natural inclinations, and how this allowed him to identify his unique set of skills. His thick skin and talent for persuasion may not have found their place in litigation, but he uses them all the time in sales.
- Being a litigation associate is nothing like what it looks like on TV
- Look at the associates and partners ahead of you and think whether their job/life is something that appeals to you
- Trying different practice environments can help you identify whether your dissatisfaction is with the type of practice, or with being a lawyer all together
- Alex even started his own firm, which highlighted to him that he loved the sales and marketing work more than the law practice
- Identify the core of what you enjoy; for Alex it was working with people
- Look back at what has come naturally to you in the past; you have a unique set of skills
- Really devote some time and effort to introspection to identify your skills and challenges
- You might find your answer faster by slowing down
- Finding success in a legal career doesn’t mean it’s the best fit for your skills or your happiness
- Lots of real conversations are happening on LinkedIn
- Don’t get overly focused by moving up the ladder in any field; it may not lead you to a position that plays to your strengths
- Keep an open mind
- Follow your own internal guide, not a set of job listings
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
Mary Cobb is both an artist and a working lawyer. She tells us about how she left full-time practice to move to Italy and learn to paint. She’s now built a dual career, returning to practice as a staff attorney while building her art business on the side. I think her story gives a good glimpse into how pursuing your interests and passions can be balanced with a legal job, if that’s where your comfort zone lies.
- Sometimes the life you carefully built no longer makes sense to you
- It’s ok to make a change, even if you feel like you're too old to
- Get your eat, pray, love on
- Explore your artistic side, you might find you have one
- You can leverage your legal skills through contract work to fund a break, exploration stint, etc.
- Longer term, there are staff attorney roles at law firms that allow you to balance being a lawyer, making money, and exploring an interest/passion
- You can balance careers, but it requires holding your boundaries clearly
- You can gradually let go your attachment to the lawyer identity
- Covid-19 may present opportunities to advocate for a new balance for yourself
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
Former Lawyer: https://www.formerlawyer.com/collab/
Alexis Robertson is the Director of Diversity & Inclusion at Foley & Lardner LLP where she provides firm-wide strategic direction and oversight on all diversity and inclusion related matters. Alexis talks to us about her journey out of litigation to recruiting, and ultimately to diversity and inclusion work. We speak about the structural racism within our industry and the challenges law firms face in making meaningful progress on diversity and inclusion with respect not only to recruiting, but work allocation, mentorship, and professional development. Ultimately, Alexis tells us that the work begins at the individual level and challenges us to all do the hard, introspective work of examining our roles in perpetuating discrimination. Only then can we really effect the widespread changes needed in our firms, industry, and communities.
We discuss:
- Try to identify your “through-line”, the thing that seems to pull you to your next step
- If you make a step, and realize it’s still not a fit, just keep moving; it’s not a sign of failure
- The pillars of diversity and inclusion (D&I) are recruiting, retention, and promotion
- “Best practices” is a tricky term because is can sometimes just mean “minimum baseline requirement”
- D&I can’t be treated as a separate office; to be effective, its principles have to be at the core of every decision made
- This moment in history could be an opportunity to push firms to incorporate these policies/practices more pervasively
- Law firms fall on a spectrum of how deep this work goes; how committed they are to changing not only statistics, but their internal culture
- The practice of only hiring from the top law schools has the effect of eliminating a pipeline of strong candidates (many of whom are minorities) who have selected other law schools for financial, family, or other reasons
- Firms are risk averse and not inclined towards early adoption; but someone has to start changing this limited hiring system
- Addressing affinity bias in work allocation, promotion, mentoring is key
- We each have to do real self reflection on our own implicit bias: who we interact with, what our hard-wired reactions are to people, etc.
- Get uncomfortable
- The challenge is to keep engaged with this work even though we don’t “have to”
- We, as lawyers, need to put our money where I mouth is with our commitment to justice
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
For the first episode after this Covid-19 break, I’m speaking again with Annie Little, a former lawyer turned career coach specializing in coaching lawyers. We jump right into what this new reality means for lawyers thinking about career shifts. There are obviously a lot of challenges in this new reality, but there are also a lot of opportunities. And I hope this episode is more hopeful than anything.
We discuss:
- Big firms are generally cutting salaries over laying off lawyers
- Will some of these structural changes, like remote work and flexible hours, become permanent or more prevalent?
- Will law firms lean on people working from home to be available 24/7?
- It’s ok to feel disoriented, off-balance, and anxious
- How people are proceeding with exit planning in a world of uncertainty
- Be kind to yourself - don’t judge yourself more harshly than you would someone else
- Some people need a break from making big moves, others might find they have the time and space to give it more attention
- Don’t let this totally derail you from your hopes and dreams
- Take the time to speak to people and network
- We’ve spent our lives trying to keep “stable” jobs, just to find out that nothing is truly risk-free
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
After nearly two decades in litigation practice, Chris Gillett took his hobby of photography and grew it to a full-time headshot photography business. Chris shows us that prioritizing time pursuing an interest can open up doors down the road. His story also emphasizes a theme we’ve discussed before: there are seasons in your life and career if you allow there to be.
In this episode, we discuss:
- It is possible to enjoy the people you work with, but still hate practicing
- Inertia keeps you in place, and life circumstances can make you feel particularly stuck
- Timing is everything - be open to windows of opportunity
- Pursuing your interests as hobby can remove the pressure of perfection
- Your interests can lead to a new full-time career in the long run (or just a few years)
- You aren’t likely to be great at a new thing right away - that’s ok
- Be bold and make connections
- It’s hard to throw yourself into work that you ultimately don’t care about
- Someone else suggesting you take a leap can somehow make it feel more realistic
- Fear holds you back
- Be realistic about how long it takes to build a full-time business, even when you’ve been doing a side hustle. Don’t be discouraged too early
- Everything becomes easier when you get clarity on what you want to do
- Prestige is a matter of interpretation/perspective
Chris Gillett Studios: https://liketherazor.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
My guest today is Josh Ferguson, a Research Consultant at Common Good, a government reform think tank. Josh practiced at a firm for a few years, then moved into legislative work at the Maryland State House, which he loved (making him a little bit of a different case than some of my other guests). But, with a baby on the way, his wife got a new job in a new city. They wanted one of them to stay home with the kids, so as it shook out - Josh decided to leave practice to be a stay-at-home dad for 12 years. There are so many different paths you can take - even in a household with two former lawyers and a pile of law school debt. And if and when it’s time to change, just know that you’ll be able to handle it.
- Some people actually enjoy practicing
- Life can intervene to change your path
- Living somewhere more affordable opens up a lot of options for alternatives that pay less
- Leaving practice to become a stay-at-home dad
- Coordinating careers, family, and location
- Nothing is permanent. If you change things up and it doesn’t work, just change things again
- Letting go of the idea of being a lawyer opens up options
- Law school and practicing build so many transferable skills
- Think of your law degree as a selling point to open up opportunities, not as handcuffs
- Jumping back into the job market after 12 years at home with kids has its challenges
- Always leverage your network
- Think creatively about pitching yourself to new jobs in new industries
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
Angela Han is Corporate Counsel at HealthPro Heritage, runs her own company, Angela Han Health, and hosts the podcast Fit to Practice. Angela gives us some great tips on how to devote time to a side hustle you love while you’re still practicing. She’s not looking to move out of law completely. You could find a dual career balance, as she has. Or maybe you take her approach as a stepping stone towards fully leaving the law. Either way, she really shows us what it means to purposefully build the life you want. And we get some tips on how to be a lawyer and be healthy….not always easy!
In today’s episode, we discuss:
- Balancing cultural and family expectations around careers
- Building a side business while still practicing
- Identifying your biggest life pain point could spark inspiration for a new path
- Angela’s recovery from an eating disorder made it clear to her that health and wellness were core values to her
- Becoming a personal trainer while in law school
- Being a lawyer by day, personal trainer by night
- It is possible to find a legal job that allows you the time and flexibility to have a side hustle
- No one is going to hand you flexibility or an unconventional working arrangement. You have to ask. Advocate for yourself.
- Think proactively and purposefully about building a life (both career and personal) that you want
- Angela’s two jobs are complementary: being a lawyer helps her serve her clients
- It is possible to make space for health and fitness, even with a crazy schedule
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thelawyersescapepod/
Fit to Practice podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fit-to-practice-with-angela-han/id1463128400
Designing Your Life - https://designingyour.life/the-book/
Travis Hornsby is a Chartered Financial Analyst and the founder of Student Loan Planner, a company that helps analyze the best repayment paths for people with significant student debt. Travis gets into detail about strategies that will allow you to manage those loans without having to be stuck in a job you hate. This means getting into quite a bit of math - and it’s a complicated system. But don’t be turned off! Travis does a great job of outlining the basic principles. If you take nothing else away - just know that there are resources to be leveraged and you really don’t have to be a slave to your student debt.
Topics we discuss:
- Student loan debt does not be an albatross
- Federal loans do not always have to be paid back
- The answer is not always to trap yourself at a big firm until 100% of your loans are paid off
- Consider income-based repayment options with loan forgiveness at the end of the term, even outside public interest work
- Tax deductions, simple interest, and a simple savings plan can help you account for a balloon payment at the end of your loan term, even at a lower income level
- You can set it up so your debt is a percentage of your taxable income (whatever that is) - not a flat number, which means you aren’t as stuck as you may feel
- There are some situations in which your loan forgiveness wouldn’t be taxable at all
- A slight difference in your savings rate can translate to retiring 10-15 years earlier
- You have more control over your living expenses than you may feel
- Public service loan forgiveness programs are available, do not be discouraged. If you have pre-2010 loans, you may just need to consolidate to have the right kind of loan
- Public service forgiveness has a shorter timeline and isn’t taxable
- Refinancing makes sense in some circumstances, but be sure to shop around
Student Loan Planner for Lawyers - https://www.studentloanplanner.com/category/lawyer/
Refinancing Loans -https://www.studentloanplanner.com/how-to-refinance-law-school-loans/
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/
After almost 5 years in litigation practice, Clara Jung found herself dissatisfied with practicing and considering her next steps. Initially, she looked into legal recruiting. But, after not getting any traction there, she didn’t give up - she just went back to the drawing board. She thought about what genuinely interested her - whether or not it had any legal connection. She realized that interior design was something she’s always enjoyed, but had dismissed as an unrealistic career option. She did a little research, and then took a big leap of faith. There was definitely a transition period, and owning your own business always has its challenges. But Clara has built a very successful design firm, and has no regrets about her career path.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Switching practice areas can almost feel as daunting as switching careers
- The process of thinking about how to leave practice took 1.5 years
- Ultimately, life is too short to do something that makes you unhappy
- Clara considered recruiting, but didn’t get traction. But, she kept exploring.
- Look to the hobbies and interests that you love
- There may be career options you dismissed as before because they didn’t seem like realistic, responsible options
- Clara figured out the basics of the industry, and what kind of financial adjustments need to be made - but didn’t wait until she knew 100% before jumping in
- You can’t know you’ll be successful in a new field until you try it
- Think of going back to practice as a safety net, if it helps you to make a jump.
- We do all have different financial realities to account for. Don’t let it derail you, it may just push your timeline
- Project management and attention to detail are hugely useful transferable skills
- Owning your own business is a particular challenge, but comes with the payoff of more flexibility and independence
- You may have to let go of the pride of being a fancy lawyer
- Thinking of practicing law as a useful chapter, rather than a huge life mistake
Banner Day SF: http://www.bannerdaysf.com/
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/
Today's guest is Annie Little. She is a former lawyer, and now a career coach specializing in coaching lawyers. Annie walks us through a very helpful framework on thinking through a career shift. It means going back to the drawing board and asking ourselves about our core values. It means training ourselves to think differently. It’s not a quick fix, but a helpful approach for long-term satisfaction.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Taking care of your physical and mental health
- The difference between working for lawyers and working with lawyers
- There are easily accessible, low-investment programs that could be a starting point for you
- If you prioritize the deeper self-reflection, clarity can come quickly
- Turning an epiphany into action is challenging; it’s tempting to fall back into the status quo
- Lawyer-brain is a thing; it will make you focus on all the possible negative outcomes rather than positive possibilities
- The fear of making a mistake can be paralyzing; you have to work through that
- You can change your thought patterns to break away from the limiting stories you tell yourself
- Identifying your core values
- Identifying the place you want your career to fill in your life
- What would you do if you knew you couldn’t fail?
- The process may be non-linear. And that’s ok
- Resilience is a skill, you can build it
JD Nation: www.thejdnation.com
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/
This mini episode is a quick season/year-end wrap-up. I wanted to thank you all for listening. It's been great hearing from some of you, and I'm glad you're finding it helpful. Please be in touch if you have any thoughts on topics, careers paths, or other questions you'd like me to cover.
Top 6 Lessons:
(1) You are smart. You can learn how to do something new, and to succeed.
(2) Take Action. As lawyers, we are thinkers, planners, researchers. But the only way to really make a change is to act.
(3) Let go of your death grip on certainty. You don’t have to know exactly what your career will look like from now until retirement before you make a change.
(4) Your legal training isn't a waste, it's your super power. Going to law school and being a lawyer will serve you well no matter where your career path takes you.
(5) You need to take care of yourself - physically and mentally.
(6) You are not alone.
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/
Adam Oliver is the Managing Director of Firm Prospects, which offers data-driven market intelligence for legal search professionals. Out of law school, Adam practiced corporate law in a number of firms before deciding it was time to pull the plug. His experience working with legal recruiters during his firm jumps opened his eyes to that profession. He took the leap and started his own legal recruiting company. After years of doing that, he saw a pain point in the industry and decided he could solve it. So, he’s built a second company, which he’s now running.
Topics covered:
- The disconnect between what you study and what you practice
- Coming into law school with an idealistic idea of environmental law; but realizing most jobs in the field are on the corporate side
- Adam gave it a shot at many different firms and practice areas to see if there was anything that he enjoyed, but he still wasn’t happy
- Career options you would not have thought of in a vacuum present themselves to you along the way if you’re paying attention
- You don’t have to be completely certain that the next job is perfect; sometimes you just need something good enough to get you moving
- Consider ancillary aspects of a job like flexibility - it could allow you to get your “it” somewhere else
- Adam started his own recruiting company out of the gates, believing he could figure out the job on his own
- Building strong relationships along the way can pay off in critical moments along your journey
- Without having practiced, Adam couldn’t have ended up starting either of the companies he has
- Risk is in the eye of the beholder: Adam felt like staying at a firm was riskier than leaving
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/
Jonathan Laubinger is an actuary at Argonaut Insurance Company. Jon earned his JD/MBA thinking he’d go into politics or antitrust law. But before he ever even practiced law, his path took a turn towards insurance and the actuarial field. I think Jon has a really interesting perspective. For him, leaving the practice of law wasn’t wasting all the effort he put into earning his degree. It was just part of an ongoing learning journey. Mindset and perspective matter so much in how we experience our situation.
We discussed:
- Why going straight to law school after undergrad is a bad idea
- The difficulty of navigating a career so young, with so much debt
- An initial interest in politics was derailed by the need to get a higher paying job
- Coming out of JD/MBA program meaning to practice law, but never actually doing so
- Being open to learning new things and following your interests
- How there is time to pursue even a credential-intensive career after law school
- Sometimes a fulfilling career path is found in unexpected places
- Leaving practice isn’t failing; it’s just moving on to learn something new
- It isn’t self-indulgent to keep reaching for something that brings you fulfillment
- Take a sabbatical; write a screenplay
- Embrace your creativity
- Remember how lucky we are to have choices; you do have freedom
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/
Jonathan Liu is a realtor at H&M Realty Group and President of Res Ipsa Real Estate Solutions. As his company name hints, he’s a lawyer turned real estate agent and investor. Jonathan practiced primarily in the employment law area. For a while it was the sensible decision to stick with something secure in light of his growing family. On the side, though, he had begun investing in rental properties. Eventually, it became clear to him that taking the riskier road was more aligned with what he wanted to do and the lessons he wanted to teach his daughter.
Topics we discussed:
- Lean on mentors, although ones within your firm may not have sufficient perspective
- What to do when you realize that partnership is not your goal
- Experimenting with different practice settings
- Different things make sense in different seasons of your life
- “Achievement without fulfillment is the greatest failure” - Tony Robbins
- Seeking alignment between your beliefs and actions; especially in light of trying to teach kids lessons
- We often lean on excuses (reasonable as they may be) to avoid the discomfort of taking risks
- You have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable for a minute
- There may be moments of questioning your decision, but that just comes with the territory
- Its challenging, scary, fun, and doable to figure out how to do new things
- Even with the risks, he wish he’d made the change earlier
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/
My guest today is Rachel Solomon, who is the Founder and Creative Director at Honor Code Creative, a branding company that offers a full spectrum of creative, design, copy, editorial, PR and marketing services for her clients. Rachel started off in big law litigation, but realized after a few different positions that practicing law just wasn’t the right fit. She pursued her interests in writing and fashion, which put her on a path from copywriter to PR strategist and ultimately to company founder.
In this episode, we discussed:
- Changing firms allows you to narrow down what it is you do and don’t like about practicing and could give you clarity about whether practicing at all is right for you
- Junior associate work is inherently rough, but do you look ahead and want to do what the senior associates or partners are doing?
- There are still real challenges to being a woman in a firm
- Just because you’re doing the job well and getting positive feedback doesn’t mean it’s the right fit. Hint: if you’re bawling regularly at work, it’s probably not a good fit
- “Quitting is brave and empowering”
- There are pull-off-the-BandAid moments when shifting careers, just do it and move on
- Put yourself out there and meet new people; even if you hate the idea of networking
- Don’t be discouraged when looking at dream positions if you don’t have the exact list of qualifications
- Find a place where you can grow and have some control over your career trajectory
- You can restart multiple times
- Coaching is a great resource that can help you clarify what you want and get un-stuck
- Do 3 small things a day to move yourself forward, whether it’s asking someone to coffee, setting up a coaching sessions, or reading a relevant book
- What you’re doing and who you are need to be aligned
Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
Facebook Group: www.facebook.com/groups/465965087538268/
Adam Friedl spent many years practicing in various public interest organizations. One of these organizations was a non-profit technology company with the mission of improving access to justice. Working there sparked an interest in the tech side of things, and he started teaching himself to code on the side. Fast forward a few years, and he’s left the law completely to be a full time software engineer.
The topics we touch on:
- Going to law school because it seemed practical, not because he felt uniquely drawn to it
- The mission of your organization matters in your satisfaction level; but so does the underlying daily work and environment
- You might find yourself in a position that opens your eyes to something new; and if you’re intrigued - lean into it
- If you find something you love to do, even when you aren’t being paid, really consider if that could be turned into a full-time job
- Assume you can learn new skills, because you can and you’ll probably love the process
- Many fields are less credential-oriented than law and relatively easy to break into
- A lot of us are traumatized by navigating the legal job market, but don’t let that scare you off from trying something new
- Having the emotional support of your spouse, in particular, can make all the difference
- People do this - leave the law for new careers. There’s no reason why you can’t be one of them.
Website: thelawyersescapepod.com
Melissa Lorenzo-Herve is a Senior Attorney Editor at the Practical Law Company (a division of Thompson Reuters), as well as the CEO and Creative Director of Pirouette NYC, a clothing line for the professional woman. Melissa tells us about how she built this dual career after leaving the practice of law.
In this episode we discuss:
- That the area of law that attracted you is often not where you end up practicing
- How, even if you work with nice people, it may not be enough to keep you going if you’re working insane hours
- Looking at the lawyers ahead of you, does their work/life balance seem any better? Is that the path you want to stay on?
- Feeling hesitant to leave practice because of the time and money commitment
- Taking the time to go for a walk, and giving yourself space to actually think about what you might want to do next: Then write it down!
- Getting clear on what it is that you do and don't like about practicing - it can be different for each of us
- That legal publishing can be a way to lean into the academic side of law you might have liked without the client-based work
- Talking to people about your potential career shift is important - it is likely to open doors to new ideas and new contacts
- How you can pursue two things at the same time. A side hustle is a great route to pursue a passion
- How it makes no sense to be miserable for the next 40 years because in your early 20s you decided to go to law school
Shari Dunn is currently the Executive Director for Dress for Success Oregon. But, she’s had a pretty wild ride getting there. She started working in legal aid after graduation, then moved into non-profit and foundation work. Then she somehow ended up on the Oprah show talking to Oprah and Gail about dating?!? She decided to pursue TV journalism (an old dream of hers), and funded her transition with her earnings from Who Wants to be a Millionaire, because - you know - obviously that’s what one does. After a long stint in TV journalism, she has now come back to the non-profit world in her current role.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
- Going to conferences and putting yourself out there can lead to interesting career opportunities
- Getting clear with yourself on what you want
- Listening to the universe when it presents you with new opportunities
- Loving a career with many chapters
- Being willing to continuously learn in order to excel in new arenas
- How a law degree can help on many legs of your career journey
- How you are likely to have failures along the way, but it’s how you learn and grow; not a reason to avoid the journey all together
Ilana Gotlib is a former litigator who transitioned into business (specifically health care business) after leaving law practice. She’s currently the Strategic Alliances Program Director at DePuy Synthes, a medical device division of Johnson and Johnson.
Ilana tells us about how she managed family expectations about her career, rebounded after being laid off, and found a corporate job where she feels she has a purpose, the ability to direct her career development, and a comfortable work-life balance.
Ilana is so open and thoughtful about her experience and has some really great pieces of advice for being intentional about your professional development.
Today’s episode is a little different. Instead of speaking with a lawyer, we’re going to speak with Jacquette Timmons, a financial behaviorist. She focuses on the human side of money and gets you to see that you don't just manage money - you manage your choices around money. And in our conversation, she explains what that really means. I know many lawyers feel trapped by the realities of student debt, family obligations, and other factors. She'll give you hope and tools to get on top of your finances so you can open up options for your future.
Jacquette can be found at www.jacquettetimmons.com. She is the author of "Financial Intimacy: How to Create a Healthy Relationship with Your Money and Your Mate”; a frequent blogger; and the host of her own podcast, "More Than Money." Her work has been featured on SiriusXM, "Good Morning America," Oprah.com, CNN, and many others.
Christina Ward is a corporate lawyer turned professional wedding photographer. Christina tells us about the challenges of being super young when starting law school and navigating early law practice. The combination of inexperience and an entrenched and inflexible system can leave you feeling pigeon-holed in a practice area you don't enjoy. But, in the midst of that confusion and dissatisfaction, Christina allowed herself to pursue her side interest in photography. She ultimately left to run her business full-time, which she has now been doing for over 7 years.
Jen Kash is a former partner at Quinn Emanuel in San Francisco, where she practiced for nearly two decades. But the years of stress and 3500 billable hours took their toll, and she ultimately took a sabbatical that has turned permanent. She’s currently living in St. Vincent and the Grenadines where she’s started a non-profit called Virgin Independence, which helps transitional youth in finding jobs and training. She is also in the early stages of building a retreat for lawyers in need of support managing their stress in healthy ways. Jen is amazingly honest and upfront about her own struggles with burnout and dependency and gives us an important lesson in the very real health risks of pushing yourself too far.
Rebecca Dussich practiced as a litigation associate in Cincinnati after law school. But shortly after she started, the 2016 election happened. And her whole outlook changed. She is now the States Operations Director for the Tom Steyer 2020 campaign. Her story highlights that sometimes outside factors serve as an inflection point in your career. You may not see it coming, but it can be the catalyst to get into work you find more meaningful. The best thing you can do is be flexible and follow your gut.
Jackie Sueryes is a former newscaster turned litigator, who now owns Neat Method Sacramento where she’s a professional organizer! She tells us how she took her hobby and turned it into a full-time business.
In my first real episode, I speak with Mike Kaufman. He left big law for law school career counseling only to find himself back at a big law firm doing recruiting. Then an opportunity took him EF Education First in Cambridge, Massachusetts where he is currently the Senior Director of People Operations. Mike tells us about these twists and turns, and you’ll hear how his path inspired my own career transition.
Hello and welcome! Before getting into the real episodes, I wanted to say hi and give everyone a little more information on my background and what the podcast is all about.
Come find me at:
- Website: www.thelawyersescapepod.com
- Instagram: @thelawyersescapepod
- Facebook: thelawyersescapepod
And join our private Facebook group.