Climate Change and Happiness: Recent Episodes

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S5 E24: Reprise Edition from 2022 "Holding Space" Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Here at the Climate Change and Happiness podcast, Panu and I are looking back at some of our earliest episodes. And this is a great example: Our second episode from 2022 that focuses on a core mission of our podcast, that of “holding space” — for climate emotions, for healthy sensibility and consciousness, and for creative action. Listen and look back on what at the time seemed a bit strange, and even controversial: Thinking about happiness in the context of your work addressing climate breakdown. And, as you listen, see how far you and we have come in our understanding of what healthy life and coping can be.

(And in this season of talk about Odysseus, it's interesting that we were talking about the Greek concept of “thumos” or passion, courage and life force back then!)

Original Summary:

Safe spaces are crucial for the expression of climate feelings. Thomas and Panu talk about the loneliness people feel about climate experiences. What does it take to “hold space” for climate feelings, to “stand one’s ground” and “contain” experiences of sadness, grief or rage; and to practice “climate cosmopolitanism”? Panu looks back to pioneering work by Chellis Glendinning and shares Tim Jensen’s more recent concept of “ecologies of guilt.” Thomas reminds us of the role of values and that “We hurt where we care” echoing the writing of psychologist Steven Hayes, and classic insights about the “pains of an ecological education” going back to Aldo Leopold.

Links

• Pew Research Center: Two-Thirds of Americans Think Government Should Do More on Climate.
• Yale Program on Climate Change: Climate Change in the American Mind: April 2020
• Chellis Glendenning My Name is Chellis and I'm in Recovery from Western Civilization
• Tim Jensen (2019) Ecologies of Guilt in Environmental Rhetorics
• “We care where we hurt …”
• Aldo Leopold
• Classical Greek concept of Thumos
• Panu’s blog: Questions for Discussion about Eco-emotions (2020)

Transcript

Season 1, Episode 2: Holding Space

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I’m Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, our podcast. It's a show for people around the globe who are thinking deeply about the personal side of climate change including your emotions, how you feel about the issue. We know that what the research tells us is most of you listening — 70% or more — really care about this issue, climate change, and want to do something about it, but, you know, only a small percentage of you actually talk about climate change in your lives, publicly. So we invert that ratio and we talk about climate change all the time here and our emotions and mental health and our feelings and that is our job here.

Panu, today I want to, I just want to talk about this idea of holding space. This came up after our last conversation. Holding space for something. Holding space, in this case we’re holding space for emotions about climate change and I know in my work around environmental issues and psychology and ecopsychology and ecotherapy and outdoor therapy. Many times over the past years I’ve consoled myself that I’m holding space for these topics. I am creating a space, I’m trying to hold it so that we can talk about it and make it safe for others to come in. I think it's a really juicy concept for all of us.

We don’t have to have all the answers when we’re holding space, we don’t even have to have a long term direction when we’re holding space. But we know something’s important and we want to protect the space to feel and think and be about it ourselves and with others. And I’m just wondering what you think about that in relation to your work around climate change and climate emotions and all the many things that you’re doing?

Pihkala: Yeah, I think that’s a very important concept and phenomenon. So, very often at first people feel quite lonely if they recognize climate emotions in themselves especially because in most societies and communities there’s been so few opportunities to discuss or reflect on them. That is luckily changing now rapidly in many places but there’s still that condition in many places and has been in this history. So the need for safe spaces and for someone or something to hold that space so that it becomes possible to be in touch with your emotions and feelings that’s a crucial thing in our eco-emotional work I think.

Doherty: Yeah, we have so many emotions and you know they’re all happening all the time and it’s like a train you know. As I say, when we see the car passing on the train, the engine is far away, far ahead of us and by the time we catch up on one of the cars or whatever we’re feeling we have to realize we’ve felt all kinds of things previous to that and we’ll feel more after. But one of the things that comes up to me is almost a warrior energy, almost like a peaceful warrior energy. Certainly stubbornness, but more of a resolute kind of feeling that I am going to hold this space. You know, kind of a bravery, a courage, but also a toughness. You know toughness, I’m going to be here and I’m not going to be scared away, you know, by social pressures or someone looking askance at me. Certainly in academia there’s a holding space when you’re trying to start a new project. You know, so that’s something I’ve felt a lot. What kind of emotions come up for you or have seen in terms of the different emotional tones that come with the idea of holding space?

Pihkala: Yes, that idea of sort of standing on one's ground is one very interesting aspect of this. I often tend to think of holding space in relation to containment. That concept from psychology where something is able to be contained enough so that it can be faced with or without naming it. Even better if it can be named. But of course many climate emotions and feelings, for example, are so ambiguous and conglomerates of different feelings that it may be rather hard to name them exactly. But at least naming some main tones of that would be already very useful. And sadness or grief is one that comes up very often which is very understandable because there’s so many changes and losses happening around, and as we’ve many times discussed with you, it’s tricky because the societies around us are not especially attuned to validating grief and sadness. It’s more like: Be happy, don’t be sad attitude that one tends to find in industrialized countries, and often the people I meet have strong problems with ecological grief because of these cultural attitudes. Does that come up in your work, Thomas?

Doherty: Yeah, no I can resonate with that very much. A holding space is sort of a … How would I say it? Most people rush, they are impulsive about a lot of this stuff and they rush into things and they try to grasp onto certain… Whatever the certain feelings are or fit in with others, and they haven’t quite done the work, I guess, to really sort out all of their feelings. I mean one of the metaphors I use with my counseling and therapy clients is “emptying the bag, emptying the sack.” You know, we carry around this sack of all these thoughts and feelings and impressions and goals and values and it just, you know, empty it out, dump it out on the table. Let's sort out all of this and so emptying out the sack of our environmental emotions can be really helpful and it's a pre step. We don’t have to work on expressing or even understanding, but you know we create space, a white space so to speak, a blank slate and then we can empty out our sack and see what the heck is in there.

Pihkala: That’s a really great metaphor I think. Probably, usually people find many surprising objects on the table after that I would suppose.

Doherty: Yeah, there’s some beautiful seashells in there and all kinds of stuff. And then there’s also, you know, bricks that we’ve been carrying for 25 or 30 or 40 years or ten years or whatever in there as well. But yeah, how to get people to, part of this is physiological, being in your body and breathing and slowing down and being present. As our stress level rises like an old mercury thermometer, you know the mercury is rising, and our bandwidth and our creativity space is getting smaller and smaller. So by the time we’re super stressed we have a very limited bandwidth and we’re very tunnel visioned, you know, and so it's backing off on that stress level and opening up that spectrum of creativity, bandwidth, expression. To see what's all in there.

Pihkala: Yeah, that reminds me of the etymology of the word stress having to do with pressures and weight that one experiences and certainty unrecognized ecological grief can be a big part of those burdens. But then of course guilt, sometimes even shame, is a big part of that in many people’s lives that I meet. And that’s one emotional tone that really needs public recognition and holding safe spaces and it's very complex because, after all, the relationship between individual responsibility and structural responsibility — that’s a tricky one.

Doherty: No indeed, and what’s in the background in all our talks is who’s responsible and culpable for climate issues and, you know, so much of this is, you know, my term of being a “climate hostage,” people are climate hostages. Even wealthy people in affluent countries are still hostage to small groups that have kind of stymied our abilities to address the issue of climate and it's really a global injustice. And so it's that spectrum, injustice is hanging over us all the time. But the holding space, you know, as you say for shame and guilt and some of these things. And then, you know, holding space is an odd welcoming: Come on in, you know, let’s let these feelings come in and have their own value and respect. I was reading a quote from Stephen Hayes, a psychologist that’s done a lot of work around therapy creation here in the United States. He had a quote about, you know, we hurt where we care and we care where we hurt. Right, we hurt where we care, and we care where we hurt.

It’s a helpful one to think about particularly if we’re hurting. It’s because we care about something. If we’re hurting it’s because there’s a value there. You know and so again as we dig through our sack we realize underneath the guilt and the shame there’s other things there, other healthy feelings like pride and respect and health and, you know, also our values about justice and ecology and sustainability and all this sort of stuff. But yeah, so you know it's poking into these. It’s painful. Let’s just be honest, it's painful to do this work. It's not easy.

Pihkala: That's a very profound thing again that you mentioned, Thomas. There’s a couple of good books about ecological emotions which make this point I’m thinking of Tim Jensen Ecologies of Guilt in Environmental Rhetorics from 2019 where he makes the argument that even though people normally think that when they feel ecological guilt it is because they have failed, but in fact, it is because they care. So exactly the point that you were making Thomas and this can be a real discovery to many people that “hey it's actually a sign of care, empathy, compassion,” even you know love if you use that big word and the same for grief. I remember a talk that I was giving in early June to environmental educators in Finland and then saying that ecological sadness is the price of caring, and a couple of people emailed me afterwards and thanked me for saying that out loud. That was also a good reminder for me that one really needs to repeat these sort of very basic and important messages even though, you know, after being involved with this issue several years one gets so used to this, even the most important ones. But I think we really need to keep reminding ourselves and others of them.

Doherty: Indeed that’s something to take for granted and in our listeners we need to — all of us — we need to think about this. Some of you listening have been holding space for many years, maybe even longer than I am alive, and so a lot of our listeners can resonate with this and they’re holding space. So I want to honor you all — people who are holding space around the world, people who might be listening, holding space in various ways. So I want to just honor you all and thank you. So, I think it’s important to really take that in for all of us. If you’re listening you can put your hands over your heart and you can take some deep breaths and you can say yes, I’m holding space, I’m holding space just for myself, for my family, for my community, for others. You know, really just be with that, you know, and I appreciate it and you are appreciated and this is a sign of love and a sign of care.

You know, these — I love that title Ecologies of Guilt in Environmental Rhetorics — that’s a great way — you know in our intellectual work, you know, we have these ecologies of guilt but in emotions we are here and we’re present and we’re holding space, so I just kind of want to get that out there. The price of an ecological education is living in a world of wounds. Right, you know, the Aldo Leopold quote. You know again, so like you say, Panu, we have to keep coming back to these, you know, these wisdoms, these nuggets of wisdom that we might have known for a long time but we need to keep repeating it for ourselves. But also for the new generation that are coming in here.

Pihkala: Yeah exactly.

Doherty: They haven’t spent 10, 20, 30, 40 years holding space and, you know, being with this sort of stuff. It’s all new. They’re on their first run around the track here. First lap in this crazy world.

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah that’s a very hugely important point and also my strong gratitude to all of the folks around there, some who have done for a short time and some for a very long time. My earlier dissertation research dealt with environmental history and that was a time when I really learned to respect those pioneers in the late 19th century and early 20th century who already tried to make an impact. Sort of bridge building work between generations. That’s something close to my heart also. And now in 2021, when awareness about climate emotions is spreading, luckily, so then some of these early people like Chellis Glendenning, who you have mentioned Thomas yourself, who not too many people of this new generation know about. So there’s some important wisdom in books 25, 30 years old and then not to mention Aldo Leopold and those folks back then.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah Chellis Glendenning — in her book My Name is Chellis and I’m In Recovery From Western Civilization — good job Chellis if you’re out there. Yeah, I got a chance to see her speak years ago at an ecopsychology conference. Yeah, so holding space, so it’s good to honor. I’ve got a bookshelf here with just tons of books and I’ve got all these people that have been talking, you know, it's, there’s such a …I have to vent, you know, a little bit. I talk to reporters and I know you do too and they come at this issue as if it's just brand new as if it just arrived like an egg this morning from, you know, from a chicken and it’s like, No this is — come on wake up you know we’ve been talking about — people have been talking about this forever and certainly in our, you know, we’re so ahistorical in the United States. Its terrible, you know, people forget everything that didn’t happen more than a year ago and, you know, I’ve got all the ecopsychology writers and the ecotherapy writers. I’ve got books you know on ecotherapy and ecopsychology that are you know 30, 40 years old and you know people like Joanna Macy who has been doing this, you know, doing this work for years and, you know, so there’s just more people than I can name out there, and there’s a whole new generation. I’ve got books in front of me I’ve been looking at from the library, you know, this new book by Gus Speth, They Knew. It’s about the history of fossil fuel, you know, government supported the fossil fuel system in the US through all the presidential administrations going back to the 60’s. And you know David Wallace Wells, Uninhabitable Earth, you know he’s holding space. I believe I was talking to you or it could have been someone else who knows a lot of people holding space for doom. They’re holding space for gloom, doom, the worst case scenarios. I think of David Wallace Wells as doing that really in a tragically beautiful way in his writing you know. But then I’ve got Bill Gates’ [book] — a realistic but optimistic take on how to avoid climate disaster. So he’s holding space for innovation and you know clean energy and things like that. And that book that you mentioned in one of our recent talks — Healing Through the Dark Emotions – I picked that up and I’ve been looking at that, so Miriam Greenspan, a therapist, you know. Again in the therapy world people have been holding space for, you know, that is part of the therapy, a therapist’s basic job is to hold space.

An Ecotopian Lexicon by Schneider-Mayerson and Bellamy – that’s a great book where we look at all these different, you know, “eco” words.

Pihkala: Yeah, I guess one could speak of an ecology in the sense that also there’s a need for different niches and different creatures in different parts of the system. And, I also respect many kinds of writers on eco-emotions. Of course, it would be important to practice this climate cosmopolitanism, one of your terms Thomas, so that we wouldn’t require from others that others adapt the exact same approach as we do. That kind of binary thinking is dangerous. Of course, there’s room for many different kinds of takes on related matters.

Doherty: Yeah, exactly yeah. I think we can segue a bit to how do you do the holding space and a little more practical thoughts. And part of it is having that sense of what I call “climate cosmopolitanism” which is not a common term, but it's something I’ve kind of adopted, and by necessity for my own survival, because I don’t agree with every approach in the climate world. But I do recognize that we have to build coalitions and we have to work together and so climate cosmopolitanism is recognizing that we have billions of people on this planet and they’re going to approach the issue of climate change in very different ways, even if they agree that it’s a pressing crisis, and they’re going to come into their Politics of the Earth (which is another classic book), so they’re either going to come at it from technology or politics or from economics or from social movements or from spirituality or from the therapeutic side. Even within those silos there’s going to be variations on the theme, you know, in terms of the ecomodernists and back to the land people and the social justice people and all this sort of stuff. So we have to realize not everyone is going to do it exactly my way.

Pihkala: Yeah, totally agree on that point and in this research about emotions and feelings and environmental matters also sometimes people have the hope that if we would just find the right emotion, some people think that it might be fear others think it might be anxiety or anger, outrage perhaps, even you know guilt, or then pride. If we only could find the right one then we could do environmental communication right. Luckily, this has been challenged by emotion researchers that it's not so simple. In some circumstances anger or some valences of anger work. In others they don’t. In some instances guilt can get people move forward and in other instances it can paralyze them. So, I really think that we need sensitiveness to context and the very different conditions that people live in when talking about any practical dimension of which emotion or feeling we want to cultivate.

Doherty: Yeah, let’s — I’m going to — there’s an instrumental view about this. There’s okay, yeah, there’s a right key to the lock if we can just, you know, and so let’s respectfully back away from that for a moment. I’d love to chat about that in another episode but I think it's — there’s a danger of collapsing this holding space when we do that or when we violate that by saying I’m doing this for a reason, you’re just a tool. I understand why people want to find the right emotions and they desperately want to communicate this so I do understand that and I want to hold space for that. But you know I think practically holding space is — it’s always stepping back. It’s always taking one step backward and another step backward. You know one of my critiques of some of the, you know, big ecopsychology writers that I’ve read is that they’re not big enough. They have to step another back because they have their view. Anyone who has their big view of the world and why things are then they have to say and that is my view and I’m going to take one step back from that. And that’s hard to do because we get attached very much to our views, particularly if we’ve spent a lot of time nurturing them and holding space ourselves. We want them to be in the world and I want my voice to be heard, you want your voice to be heard. So I totally, I totally get that. But you know holding space is creating emptiness, it's creating, like you say, the container and it has to be a big container not a little container and it has to be as big as the issue so we have to keep, you know, backing up, backing up, backing up. You know, making more room. At the end of one of our recent talks you brought up the Greek word “thumos” and I wanted to hold that because that was really — I love when these really — thumos is an ancient concept and you know I was thinking about that in terms of holding space because I think that thumos is like, the way I understand it, it’s spiritedness, it can be anger, it could be righteous anger, but it's also just our heart and our spirit and - how do you understand thumos?

Pihkala: Yeah, along very similar lines and sometimes it's translated quite directly as anger but that doesn’t capture it all. I think this certain whole-heartedness or feeling which in English language when somebody’s really spirited about something I think that captures important aspects of thumos and regarding this discussion about various ecological emotions or climate feelings. I think that thumos can arise as combination of many emotions but what would be really needed is that is arises because then it means that we are not locked, we haven't blocked a way to many emotional energies, but I do make a separation between you know violent rage and thumos so I am not speaking about violent rage here, I’m speaking about a spiritedness which also still has some guidelines from compassion and respect towards others.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, so one of these words that we can keep developing and thumos, our classical — this brings me back to my undergraduate classical, you know, classical history training and my professors Wallace Gray and Authur Danto and some of these professors I had when I was in my undergraduate program teaching us classical civilization and thumos. You know, a lot of people think of it in terms of, you know, Achilles, you know, anger of Achilles in The Iliad there but that was rageful. So, I guess our spirit can become enraged, you know, when we know when this natural spiritedness can, we wrankle against injustice and we want to stand up for, or against, injustice and that’s one way that this fire comes out. But you know when we’re wronged or betrayed it can turn into a vengeful, a very vengeful energy and even a blind rage, and so obviously there are some listeners that’ll feel that way around climate change and around the injustices that are happening here. So that is something to make space for here, you know, that we feel wronged and you know we need, we want to avenge that. So you know um, and then I was thinking of “arete,” another juicy Greek word, you know, overall excellence. You know how we balance all of our skills and really present ourselves in a really integrated, excellent way and so, you know, climate arete you know. Certainly climate thumos, people can get around that pretty quickly. I think but climate arete, about excellence, and it’s about being our best and showing our strengths. You know like an athlete showing their best and being just on time, like an athlete or a musician or something like … so anyway our excellence.

Pihkala: Yeah, that’s another great concept and linked of course with virtues and cultivation. And one of the projects I’m finishing is with anxiety philosopher Charlie Kurth and that’s about a, sort of adaptive dimensions of eco-anxiety and the sort of need to cultivate anxiety in the context of ecological crises. So eco-anxiety as a moral emotion. So that comes to my mind from that and I do think that we need more discussions about the moral emotion framing of many climate emotions and eco-emotions. So thanks for bringing arete up. I’ll have to do some checking about that too.

Doherty: Yeah. Well you know we’re into this stuff and we know these words are really magical and these feelings are magical and they get into us. So this is a really great conversation and I look forward to some more very soon. You know in our personal conversations Panu and I, we talk about our families and our life. Panu’s in the evening in Finland and I’m in the morning — I just got my daughter off to her high school. She's in ninth grade. She just started, so she’s still nervous about going and it’s a big rite of passage for her. How are your boys? Panu, do you want to just — without unpacking everything, you want to just say a little bit about what you’re coping with there?

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah I might as well so.

Doherty: Yeah.

Pihkala: So this is Autumn 2021, and in Finland where we are the situation is that as 40-year-olds, as me and my wife, we’ve had two [COVID] vaccinations shots - that’s another issue related to global justice we know - that still the variant is spreading and our youngest son caught it from pre-school so now half of the family is confined inside and I and the older son can luckily still go out to play some Finnish baseball. So it’s a sort of special time. But luckily the symptoms are mild but it’s a strange time that we are living. But luckily Autumn is coming and the beauty of the colorful leaves cheers me up.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah so Jakob got COVID-19 and he’s 11 did you say?

Pihkala: No, Jaakko (Jakob) the younger one is 5 and older one is 8 so.

Doherty: Well anyway listeners can unfortunately identify with that as well. I mean we’re dealing with all this stuff as well. I’ve been lucky in my family not to be touched directly by COVID-19 but that’s a thing. So even you, Panu, even you being vaccinated and doing your best it’s gotten into your family so I’m so appreciative you were able to make the time this evening.

Pihkala: Yeah it was lovely to discuss with you Thomas, again.

Doherty: So this is Climate Change and Happiness: Climatechangeandhappiness.com. As we get this podcast set up please reach out to us, let us know what you’re thinking and just let us know what you think about our conversations and we’ll talk more again soon. You all take care.

Pihkala: Bye bye.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

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image credit | **Sebastian Pichler**

S5 E23: A New Edition of Ecotherapy and Remembering Martin Jordan — With Hayley Marshall & Joe Hind Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Thomas Doherty was joined by Haley Marshall and Joe Hinds, editors of the new edition of Ecotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice, and Education, of which Thomas authored the first chapter. The trio reflected on the science and stories behind ecotherapy’s rise from the margins to mainstream practice, and remembered their colleague, pioneering UK ecotherapist, Martin Jordan. Contrary to common misconceptions, outdoor or ecotherapy is neither new, nor unstudied. Thinkers like Martin, Hayley, Joe, Thomas and others have been clarifying and building best practices in this field for decades. This episode is an essential listen for those seeking a solid background on the history and development of mental health therapy in the outdoors.

Links

• Joe Hinds, Hayley Marshall, and Martin Jordan (Anthology Editors), 2026,Ecotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice & Education (2nd Ed.)
• Martin Jordan, 2014. Nature and Therapy: Understanding counselling and psychotherapy in outdoor spaces.
• Martin Jordan & Hayley Marshall, 2010. Taking counselling and psychotherapy outside: Destruction or enrichment of the therapeutic frame?
• Martin Jordan, Martin Milton, & Paul Stevens, 2010. EDITORIAL Ecopsychology: Past, present & future. The European Journal of Ecopsychology. 1. 1.
• Jordan, Martin 2009 Nature and Self—An Ambivalent Attachment? Ecopsychology.
• Hayley Marshall & Joe Hinds, J. 2017 Martin Jordan Remembered. Ecopsychology.

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

Doherty: Well Hello, Thomas Doherty. This is the Climate Change and Happiness Podcast. Typically, I'm co-hosting with my colleague Panu Pihkala from Finland, but he is unable to join us today. but it's here we're recording in the summer of 2026. And I'm really excited for this episode because we have you know, in this podcast I often have ideas of people that we would like to have as guests and colleagues and people I've worked or Panu has worked with and it's really nice to bring people in, particularly if you haven't had chance to meet them in person. and so, one of my areas is ecotherapy and doing therapy in the outdoors. So that's going to be our focus today. And I'm really glad and excited to have two special guests with us.

Marshall: Hi, I'm Hayley Marshall. I'm from the UK, the Peak District in the UK. It's very beautiful at the moment. We've had a lot of warm, wet weather, so it's really lush here. I'm an eco-psychotherapist and an ecological trainer, and I've been practicing for what feels like a very long time, but it's actually only about 20 years. So, I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

Hinds: Yeah, hi, I'm Joe Hines. I'm also in the UK. I'm down on the southeast coast of the UK. I'm also like Hayley, a practicing eco psychotherapist and an educator. I'm a teacher of psychotherapy as well. And also lapping up the good weather we're having at the moment.

Doherty: Mm. Yeah, well, Haley and Joe, it's really an honor to have you here on the podcast. I've known of Haley and Joe for well, you know, some time. Well maybe going on fifteen, twenty years. Hayley and Joe have a new edited volume ecotherapy that's just coming out now, which is the re-edition of the original ecotherapy text from 2016

So, we'll check in on that. And both Hayley and Joe have been innovators in outdoor and ecotherapy, particularly in the UK, and then the work has kind of been you know learned of over here in the US. and then we want to just recognize the memory of Martin Jordan, who was integral to this this project here in the past. but why don't we get started with a little background?

Maybe you both can just share a short a short, you know, background on how you how you came to do practicing eco therapist and what when you look into your background, either your early background childhood or your early professional life, what led you to this to this activity?

Hinds: I'm kind of happy to start there. I'm going to have to condense this, so it fits the time frame, but I was raised in rural New Zealand as a child. And I went barefoot till I was 11 when I came to the UK. I went through some fairly traumatic sort of family breakups and it wasn't until much later on in my adult life in the UK that I crossed paths with a certain Martin Jordan and he and I got talking because I came at that time from an environmental psychology background and he was very keen to pick my brains; I was very keen to pick his. And we formed a partnership, friendship at that time. And that would have been, I'm going to guess around 2012 when we first got together, and we went on some outdoor expeditions and one or two other things to the to the peak district and yeah that and that's I stepped away from environmental psychology although you never step away from it completely and realized the much you know much more valuable sort of approach to well-being which was psychotherapy.

I saw psychotherapy as a far more hands-on doing approach than the psychological perspective, which turned to be far more theoretical. I still go back to it on occasions, but I am first and foremost a psychotherapist. Psychotherapy is a far more “doing” approach.

Doherty: Mhm. That's great. What about you, Hayley? What's what do you think about your background or origin story? What comes up for you?

Marshall: well, I think in my childhood, you know, I think I think I think eco psychotherapists often have an origin story that's rooted in childhood. People who really go into this work at depth. mine's very rooted there. I grew up in rural Buckinghamshire on a farm and was outside as a small child a lot. I was pretty feral really. which was not always a good thing. I mean it sounds idyllic, but of course it you know, there's a lot of trauma kind of wrapped up in that.

So, it's very rich territory really for kind of siphon me in this direction eventually. you know, I have a very deep connection to being outside. It's almost cellular for me. I just I kind of live and breathe it and think through it, you know, think and feel through the outdoors really. but in terms of my later life, I mean I, you know, like many people, I kind of moved away from that world and became a musician. Then again, like many people got into the therapeutic world through having my own therapy. finding that really useful. Became a therapist, was a therapist for about 12 years and then started to think I can't sit in the chair for the rest of my professional career because I don't think I'll survive. and started looking for something else and actually at that time was doing a lot of walking in the Peak district, which is where I'm living. And just began searching for something that I wasn't actually quite sure what I was looking for. But at the time there were a few embryonic things going on in this country. So, I found what was called a wilderness immersion trip up on sky.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Marshall: which I've written about actually in our book and went there and went on this course and it changed my life basically. I mean I you know, I mean I won't go into loads of detail, but what was going on it was live process, you know, canoeing, camping, working with group process live in the moment and I just knew that that was what I was going to be doing for the rest of my life basically. And I've still got the sense of sitting on the side of a mountain looking out across a sea loch, you know, watching a sea eagle and just knowing that this was going to be it. And in the valley the group were, you know, that like I could see our camp and I knew what was going on in the human world.

Doherty: Wow. Mm-hmm.

Marshall: nested within this much broader, soaring Scottish landscape. And you know, it kind of went on from there really. I mean, I met Martin at a very unusual gathering of people, which is a story in itself. and you know, he and I got together and professionally and just kind of started chewing things over. And from then on, you know, it's like that's our work developed really.

Doherty: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Marshall: So yeah, I mean that's you know, that's the kind of abridged version.

Doherty: Yeah. How old were you when you had that really that special outdoor trip?

Marshall: In Scotland? I was in my early forties then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I wasn't mega young or anything like that. So, it's yeah, yeah.

Doherty: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well that's helpful because this can happen every any time in your life. And I think you know, one of the themes that I like to talk about with people is that, you know, you don't have to have an idyllic childhood, you know, with a grandparent mentor, you know, on a farm somewhere is not the only origin story. That is one of the common ones, but

Marshall: Mm.

Doherty: I know I did not have outdoor special background experience till until my twenties, you know, really when I left where I was from and traveled. So, it could be at any age. So, listeners out there, you know, I always like to highlight this because sometimes people think, I'm not enough. Like I can't be an ecotherapist or an environmental person because I didn't have the right childhood and that's just not at all the case. You know, this is always available for us.

Marshall: Yeah, I think that's really true, you know, because there’s someone I'm working with now, his origin story would be like in London. He often talks about the alleyways behind the house, you know, where they grew up and the richness of that ecological spot, and he was outside, but it was an urban landscape.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Hinds: And there are some good theories to suggest that our sort of development is not really caught up with the predication of sort of living in urban environments. We're evolutionarily geared to live in natural environments and it's only in relatively recent human history that we live in urban environments. In fact, I think WHO, the World Health Organization, made a statement in 2006 that for the first time in human history, the majority of the world's population now live in cities. And that the innate tendency for us to want to connect with nature is of course still very much alive and well in us, absolutely.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it kind of simmers underneath and every once in a while, it gets rediscovered, in the news or something like that. So, the modern world keeps distracting us from that. and I'm looking at this paper, we were talking earlier, Hayley and Martin Jordan did a paper back in 2010 taking counseling and therapy outside, destruction or enrichment of therapeutic frame.

Marshall: Yeah. Mm.

Doherty: And I was saying that I still refer to this paper and use it when I help to train, you know, ecotherapist or in classes because one of these papers that does lay out some of the groundwork here.

Hinds: I think you may be Hayleys first fan, Thomas.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah. That's great. Well, it gets at these terms like nearby nature, the idea that, you know, nature can be right in our neighborhood. I just saw a study come out about that just the other day. People are still realizing that nature can be a whole range of things from wild places to, you know, domestic nature in in your home.

And then the whole construction of what wilderness is and getting past some of these social ideas. and then you know what why this paper I thought was good was because I know you both were really what would I say, very honoring the actual psychotherapeutic process and really, you know, using theory, like not just saying I'm going to throw out all the all the psychotherapeutic knowledge I have, but actually integrating things,

Marshall: Yeah. Mm. No. Yes.

Doherty: We talked to Mark Williams. I don't know if you know Mark Williams in in Wales, but I we just interviewed him recently and he's also kind of I think on the current vanguard of this kind of work with the theory. But yeah, what where I'm going with this for either the public or for our ecotherapy listeners out there, you know, it's come we've come a long way. What do you remember what it was like to talk about this in 2010 when you were talking about this? I imagine you must have gotten a lot of pushback from the traditional therapists who thought therapy should be in a room.

Marshall: Yeah. Yes, there was quite a bit. I mean I think it was a mixture of very exciting and just feeling like certainly for me, you know, like I was let off a leash. but not so much so that we were, you know, using this word again, going feral.

Doherty: Mm

Marshall: I think there's a sense of going wild, you know, which is different for me because there's a sense the difference I understand there is something about being let out with some discipline. So, we still wanted to hold the frame, and we were critiqued for that. We were critiqued by the traditional therapy community. You know, lots of people thought we were wrecking the frame just by definition, just by taking it out of the room. And then there were other people who thought we were overly clinging onto it [the room]. You know so that, so we were kind of caught in the middle and I think Martin in particular was very keen on, you know, holding our mid-ground, which I think that article does do.

Doherty: yeah, interesting. Yeah.

Marshall: And you know, we formulated a lot of the article through simply going out and doing it. There wasn't any training, certainly not in this country then. And there are now, its big changes, you know, over this period of time. so basically, we’ve had sort of guinea pig clients, which sounds terrible, but I mean it you know, it was it was agreed. These people kind of knew what we were doing. and then we did a lot of co-supervision and we were also formulating a little training course at the same time, and Martin was writing his PhD. So, we were really trying to fathom it out, and it was a mixture of going out and doing and then coming back in and talking and reflecting and thinking theoretically and sifting through what was in the existing kind of psychotherapeutic literature as to what would be useful to support what we were trying to do. So, you know, to be able to hold the work but not clamp it down so much that you lose what actually is gained through taking it out. yeah, I mean you know just thinking about it now, I remember it was it was it was tremendously exciting. You know so exciting and Martin was an absolute joy to do it with because he was a very funny man. There was a lot of laughing and a lot of irreverence and yeah, a lot of swearing

Doherty: Yeah. there's a there's an art to this.

Hinds: Yeah, that's my memory of him as well. We got on far too well. And that's the thing. Interestingly, in 2006, I was presenting ideas of environmental psychology and wellbeing and being out in nature to psychology audiences and I was getting the same response. You know, on occasions I would be laughed at for presenting, you know, these, these kind of, you know, parallel ideas. And, and the strange thing is, you know, 10, 12, 14 years later, the people that were laughing at me have got on the bandwagon and all their research seems to be around doing well-being studies in the outdoors. Nobody likes a good idea, do they really? Especially if it's new.

Doherty: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And laughing at is there's some statement in the in the Tao or something about if you someone you know doesn't laugh at the idea then it's probably not a really new one or a good one.

Hinds: Yeah. I like that. Yeah, I like that idea.

Yeah. yeah, I'm just resonating because I'm very similar in time frame to you. I finished my psychology program and was licensed in practice 2004 and I started teaching and doing classes and yeah, certain people always have gotten this immediately. They understood exactly what was happening. And other people they just realized they had just mental categories that were separate and they could not link therapy and nature. And then they would often make a joke like, are you are you therapizing trees or something like that? You know, it was because they were uncomfortable.

Marshall: Really. Yeah.

Doherty: I mean, this is a deep topic. There's a lot of uncomfort and you know, repressed, you know, connections with nature in our society and people f feel like, you know, when you bring it up, they're resistant to it because it's different and scary that we don't need to go deep into that right now. But yes, and you know, creating the training program that you couldn't have. So, I think that's really that's really what happened with me. Yeah. Yeah.

Marshall: Well, I have a working theory about that, Thomas, that the act of play is sometimes a very, dangerous and frightening place for people to retreat to. And of course, the nature of play is, often naturally, you know, associated with childhood in outdoor places and that that somehow the retreat into or the regression into a childlike state is something to be avoided, something that is frightening. And I've seen it; I've seen an awful lot in practice that the people who have this desperate need or urge to go and play, climb a tree, run about, to resist the temptation to do so desperately because it will remind them of things that they've done a very good job of purposefully forgetting.

Doherty: Yeah. I think either personally and then also societally there's a social silencing about climate change and, you know, destruction of places and our need to have a healthy environment. yeah.

Marshall: Sure. Yeah. I think that's really important because I think, you know, eco psychotherapy is an enlivening practice. and it brings all sorts of things alive, you know, not just personal material, it's like the deeply held cultural problems and trouble, you know, that we've we were all carrying somewhere that we're actually quite cut off from still.

Hinds: If we were to see those things and to actively engage them, it would mean that we would feel the compulsion to do something. that's what, putting things into action and doing things is what people would rather not do because it takes away from their day-to-day lives, their day-to-day activities. If I was to see the truth, that means that I would feel the compulsion to want to do something about it. I'd rather bury my head, please, because... Yeah.

Marshall: Yeah.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I know even in the UK, I mean in the US we have some terrible repressive things happening regarding, you know, environmental protections and also environmental protest. So that's a piece. Luckily, ecotherapy itself doesn't have to be overtly political like that. And it's still, I think people I know in the US here even where I live in Portland and I supervise therapists. Many, many therapists, especially since COVID, are doing walking therapy and outdoor therapy. And it that used to be seen as quite strange, you know, back in the old days as we were talking about. But now it's not uncommon at all for therapists to advertise that they do walk and talk therapy. And I find the public likes it. They want it. They are they are calling for it. So, it's interesting.

So, you did the re I've got these books sitting here in front of me. I've got the original ecotherapy and now the new ecotherapy theory, research, practice, and education. So, I thought we should spend some time here to talking about how that ecotherapy volume has changed and what you know, what what's exciting and interesting about this new volume and how, you know, what you discovered in in in working on it or just your experience with that.

Hinds: Yeah. I mean, to start us off, the book could have been a more expanded version than the current one because we managed to get some really very interesting people, some indigenous people from Australia and other contributors who didn't actually manage to get to submit a chapter in the end. it's not as expansive as we would have liked it to have been. But in terms of the obvious difference from the last edition, it's got an education sort of section about how do we teach these ideas? And some of the ideas about, Hayley might want to speak about is the supervision of ecotherapy outdoors, which again has had very, very little airtime. So there has been some definite important developments in the new edition based on those two elements.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah.

Marshall: Mm. Yeah. For me, I was particularly keen on getting the education side of things going in this volume. It's a sign of the times, you know. When I first started, there weren't any really training courses. Now there are a few here. but I think what still needs addressing is the notion of what kind of education, you know, what kind of process do practitioners doing this work actually need? Do they need the one we're always doing, you know, with main or mainstream psychotherapists, or do they need something else? To really support more expansive notion of what this practice is. And you know, my feeling is it's the latter that we actually need to really think carefully about the way people are being, not trained , I don't like the word trained, you know, even it's like educated, led out into onto the land and allow the land to teach.

So, you know, we've got we've got a smallish education section in this book and supervision is also part of it. Again, same idea, you know, what is supervision, you know, how's that different for a for an ecological practitioner? does it need to be outside for instance, you know, and of course it's very different if it is. I mean the minute you start to include a much broader intelligence in the work; very interesting things happen.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Marshall: it's not pure purely human anymore, you know, and what does that do? And so, I thought it was it was really important for us to start to stretch out into that realm. And as Joe says, you know, s some of the I mean, we have a lot of revised chapters in this book because a lot of them stand the test of time really well. I mean yours is one of them.

Doherty: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Marshall: Both Joe and I have written ones that were still in there. We've you know, we've tinkered with them a bit, but basically, they hold up well even after this period of time. so, it's important to say that. And yes, it was disappointing that we didn't have other voices from up, you know, like the southern hemisphere. But you know, there are limitations when you're bringing a book together like this and you know, it took a while even to get this one together, didn't it, Jo?

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah. No, and it's the aspiration even back to the early eco the first eco psychology volume from Sierra Club Press and Rosak and those folks back in the like mid-nineties, ninety-five, they ended up having to like to interview some people to get them into the volume because they were trying to do the same thing. So, it's a general, you know it’s the story of this, yeah.

Marshall: Right. Yeah.

Hinds: So, I'm very much with Hayley on this, is the idea that we have a tendency in the world generally and certainly in education that we tell people the way things are. And as my good friend would say, no one's learned a bloody thing by being told. And the importance is to offer a situation or an environment where there can be some self-discovery. And I think that it is very much in the format of therapy itself. The education of people about things, it has to have a more of an experiential and self-discovery element attached to it rather than a more of the typical dictatorial style. It's good to have conversations. It's good to have a chat about the things that people come up with while they are going through some processes. And I think that the teaching or the teachers that I've come into contact with, a lot of them, the teaching is purely about them and for them. It's not necessarily about the people they want to educate. I've also met some people who have been wonderful people in terms of being able to communicate really important concepts without it being, you know, rammed home, unpleasantly in that sort of typical educational style. And I think there's something about that, the more organic experiential encounter with things, is, I think, you know, Hayley is getting at here which I'm very much on board with.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, experiential education. I mean, many people in this work have an experiential education, outdoor education, outdoor adventure background, which lends itself to that. It's an adventure. It's something that's discovered. I have a quick detail question because people are some people are new to this. so, Hayley you said something really nice about letting being let out and onto the land and allowing the land to teach and broader intelligence. And I totally agree, but can you give an example, even just off the top of your head, about what that might look like in a session, I have some ideas about this, but like an office-based session versus an outdoor session -- what's that intelligence? How does it show up? Do you have a sense of it?

Marshall: well, I think it can show up in a variety of ways. I mean it does depend on the on the receptivity of the people, you know, the people that are involved in the actual work. But I think there's you know, one obvious way is in the power of the symbolic realm, so like the metaphorical realm, you know, the way that the languages of the more if you like the more than human, which is a David Abram phrase, speak to us through our bodies. So, you know, like shapes, colors, movement, smell, this whole sensory world, the way all of that starts to enliven someone and their body can effectively start to change the way they think, the way they feel. So, I mean, you know, we sort of know some of this stuff very instinctively. It's like, you know, if you've got something on your mind, often it's great just simply to go outside and go for a walk. And that's a very ancient practice. You know, it's like the medicine walk. We go out, we seek medicine, and the medicine comes through the speaking of the outdoor world, you know, the way it moves in that kind of non-symbolic, it's like through movement and then more obvious symbolic realm which we can sort of associate to through metaphor. and you know so something will appear, I mean, you know, as if by magic, you know, suddenly on the path like where I work, you know, at the moment, the frogs are out. So, they're everywhere. You know, they're leaping about

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Marshall: so, whatever someone's got going on in their head, they can start to associate with what's around them. Or a classic is like a bird of prey, you know, flying above. If someone's got something really menacing going on in their head, they can start to say, Yeah, it's just like that, you know, that's exactly how I feel. And then they'll see the bird of prey do something that starts to alter, you know, the way they are interacting with the voice in their head. I mean that's a very obvious example. it's very rich territory and I think the practitioner's task is to be able to hold a very broad open space to allow in those associations which could go in any direction. They could go quite spiritual for instance. They could be really practical.

Hinds: Yes. I think I'm totally with this as well. And I think sometimes the practitioner is sort of operating from, you know, backstage as it were and observing. And when the conversation is, you know, the person is trying to make sense of something, you know, there may be a link that could be initiated because of something that they've forgotten, they're a bit blind to, but their focus, their attention on the thing is a valuable piece of information. I've had a similar thing where, you know, a dying man who I used to work in a palliative care setting would always be drawn in the woods to the rotting stump. And we would work with that and then we managed the winter and the springtime and we didn't quite make it to the summertime. But in the springtime, through the process of the work, he was drawn to the little shoots of green that were coming through the leaf litter. it was just a sign that, you know, that there'd been some real progress with him working through some kind of very heavy, very dark, stuff. And he managed to find the life in the end. that sort of work is incredibly moving for both of us, ideally, but sometimes I am moved by the work because of, as Heidi says, the symbolism. It's quite the metaphor. It's quite powerful stuff.

Doherty: Yes, it's really beautiful. I'm thinking about a client that I do walking therapy with, really you know, He’s like rain or shine. He's in his eighties and he's an outdoor person and dealing with dementia and his partner and his own physical frailty. we're in the woods where we hike, you know, age, death, decay, life are all together. It's like all happening at the exact same time.

Unlike in the human world where we kind of put death and decay, you know, away somewhere else, in the woods it's just all right in front of us. So, it's just fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.

Marshall: Yeah.

Hinds: Yeah.

Marshall: Yeah. And that it is beautiful and the other thing that I really like about that way of working is that it although it you know, we're still doing psychotherapy, like the client has come with something that's to them, there's still a way in which it takes people out of out of that just human domain. It's like we're actually also interacting with the world around us. There's a kind of a fractal, you know, like we're working with a bit that's in us that's resonating with things that are going on a much broader frame.

So, you know, like you've just said, like life and death, it's kind of it's all there at the same time. And actually, other things are living and dying. It's not just us that's doing it. you know, and it and that's cause that's one of the critiques of people who are taking the work out, is that it's still saying, “humans are at the center of everything”. And of course, sometimes we are. But actually, I think this practice really does, generally speaking, invite us to think beyond ourselves. You know, and that and that's a mighty thing. The world needs it.

Hinds: Yeah. Yeah. Or as somebody would say to me, try and get over yourself. You know, the idea becomes very transpersonal, doesn't it? It becomes very existential. It becomes very Daoist like because a lot of the Daoists, you know, would paint these paintings, these wonderful, you know, natural environments with a human, very small in the corner or to the center. know, it's just putting us and things into perspective.

Doherty: Yeah, that's well said. Well said.

Marshall: Yeah.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah, exactly. This is so wonderful. We're going to move toward closing here, but it's just a joy to meet people that are, you know, validating to like, yourself. Like so it validates all the things that that I think about. Even years ago, doing, you know, what we call wilderness therapy in the US, we had a saying, we just got to get the young people they were working with. We just need to keep them safe so the real therapists could work, like the big therapist, which is nature. We just got to make sure they don't get frostbitten toes or not drink water and things like that. So, you know, because we're facilitators of this. and that is the same in a city park too. it's just a different scale.

What I where I go with this is that it's just it's just a sense of surprise. Like if you're walking and then particularly with animal sightings, like if a blue heron flies overhead, everyone stops immediately, whatever they were thinking about, and they look at it and it's a moment of presence and that is generally universal. I was just visiting my daughter who's eighteen and she's doing a just, you know, fledgling travel and she's working in Colorado in the US.

Marshall: Yeah.

Doherty: near the Rocky Mountain National Park. I would just saw her a week ago. And when you go to these places, I'm sure it's the same in the Peak District. When there's an animal, like a deer or like there, there's moose or deer or great horned sheep. People just stop. Like all the cars stop. Everyone stops and they look. And no one is upset about it. Like they're not honking like let me get past because everyone, it's just a magical connection.

Marshall: Yeah.

Doherty: So, some of this is really quite hardwired into us, I think this this sense of wonder.

Marshall: Yeah.

Hinds: I think the animals have got an awful lot to teach us and I think our superiority sometimes gets in the way of us being able to understand that they've got an awful lot to teach us.

Doherty: Yeah, and I appreciate that you all can get at this in your book and in our conversation, really deep like transpersonal, mystical, spiritual ideas. But you're still doing it in a very, like Hayley said earlier, disciplined way so that you know, we can get this into the therapy journals and the therapy practices. It takes it's kind of hard to do that, you know.

Marshall: Mm. Mm. Yes.

Doherty: It's easy to blow the frame, like you say, and just be mystical and throw and say I'm going to be a radical, but it's hard to actually get the system to change. So, I really appreciate that you guys are working in that direction. Yeah.

Marshall: Yeah.

Hinds: You definitely need the theory, you definitely need the feeling, you definitely need the spirituality. It's the mind, soul, and body. If you don't have the holy triad there, you don't have the mind, which is the theoretical frame, you don't have the spiritual connection, and you're not using your body, you're not walking, then of course you're going to be missing something. So that holy trinity is really very important, the mind, the body, and the soul.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Marshall: Yeah. And you know, I think there is a navigation to be made with the mainstream. I think that's probably another conversation. Yeah, we'll come back. We'll deal with that next time.

Hinds: We've got to come back.

Doherty: Yeah. But you're doing it and yeah. Well, we always say, you know, that time is not enough and I want to keep this conversation going anyway in some other form. But listeners, you've got a really good intro, I think, to this work and to Hayley and Joe's background. In the show notes to the episode, we'll put links to the new volume and some of these classic papers and whatever else you both would like to share because there's there is a new generation of people just discovering this work and it's really, I think grounding to know that there are some elders and people that have been you know doing this for a while, you know we're not alone. That's just another general takeaway in all this work. We're never alone either with other people that care the same or other species or the earth. So, with that we're going to wrap it up.

Marshall: Okay. Yeah.

Doherty: but Hayley and Joe, such a pleasure to chat with you on the podcast and we will get this out this summer and I'll let you know. Hayley, and Joe and listeners and also speaking for Panu who's not with us today, everyone be well.

Marshall: Thank you.

Hinds: Thank you very much, Thomas, Thank you.

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image credit | **Richard Vanlerberghe**

S5 E22: “The Body Keeps the Storm” with Clayton Aldern Thomas. Doherty, Panu Pihkala Season 5, Episode 22: “The Body Keeps the Storm” with Clayton Aldern

Climate change is not just happening around us, but also inside of us. Thomas and Panu join journalist Clay Aldern who explains how heat, storms, and other climate shocks can shape our minds and bodies in surprising ways. Their talk focused on climate trauma, eco-anxiety, and epigenetics — the idea that stress can leave marks on our biology and may even affect future generations. As Clay noted, “The climate’s always kind of reaching in and adding a little more weight.” This captures the episode’s core message: the environment is not distant; it is part of us.

This episode is very relevant for anyone trying to make sense of climate stress about summer heat.

Links

• Clayton Aldern
• Yoko Nomura (2019) Children of Superstorm Sandy Study)

• Heat and (Mis)Preceptions

  • Marlon, J.R., Begotka, N., Preston, A. et al. (2026). Experience-driven perceptions misalign with assessed heat risk in the United States. Nature Communications
  • Heat Risk Perception Map Yale Program on Climate Change Communication

  • Heat and Aggression

  • Kristen French (2026) Heat Probably Doesn’t Make You More Aggressive: An interview With a Behavioral Economist About Cake, Climate Change, and Cooperation. Nautilus

  • Craig Anderson (1989) Temperature and aggression: ubiquitous effects of heat on occurrence of human violence. Psychological Bulletin

  • Resources

  • Neuro-Climate Working Group

  • 2026 Rachel Carson Award to Ferris Jabr - Becoming Earth
  • Seeds of Radical Renewal Fellowship
  • GRIST News Climate and Data Desk “The only newsroom focused on finding solutions at the intersection of climate and justice.”

  • Earlier CCH Episode:

  • Season 3, Episode 15: Radical Joy in the Midst of Environmental Grief with Trebbe Johnson

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

Doherty: Well Hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. And this is our podcast, a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change, obviously, and other issues which could include politics or the natural environment or your life or your family or the season. This episode should be coming out in the summer of 2026 and we are really lucky to have a special guest with us today.

Aldern: Hey, my name's Clayton Aldern and I'm a senior data reporter at Grist and occasionally I introduce myself as a recovering neuroscientist.

Doherty: Great. yeah, I met Clay at the Northwest Science Writers meeting this past January and we traded books. His book The Weight of Nature has recently won a Rachel Carson Award,

Aldern: Yeah, well second place. I was a very happy first runner up to Ferris Jabr who took home the gold,

Doherty: Yeah. well that's tough competition. That's tough composition. I know Ferris a little bit as well. But Clay is an interesting person. He's a data journalist and wrote a weighty book on the weight of nature and it's actually stuff that we talk about here in terms of how our being on the planet affects our bodies and our minds and how we think about this stuff and how it affects our very sense of self. So we're going to get into some of that here. Panu, do you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Clay, also on my behalf. Lovely to meet you and discuss with you about the inner and outer impacts of climate change. And of course, these are interrelated. But it would be lovely to hear something about your background. How did you become so interested in climate related things and working heavily with them?

Aldern: Yeah, happy too. It it's a little bit of a circuitous path. I was in grad school for neuroscience about a decade ago when I came across a paper that somebody showed me illustrating the relationship ostensibly between climate and conflict. You know, this this kind of econometric study or behavioral economic study that'll occasionally come out of econ departments that that Illustrates that even if you correct for all the sociodemographic variables under the sun, all the confounders that you can think of, there still seems to be some kind of marginal relationship between heat and the risk of violent crime in some capacity, or indeed in this case the risk of conflict, right? Interpersonal conflict, both at the individual level and indeed the neighborhood or the state level.

And as a as a practicing neuroscientist at the time, this the kind of thing that sets off some alarm bells, right? Like, well, if we can parse out all of the potential confounders, and there's still some marginal effect here, relating temperature to behavior in the specific manner. Like, what is going on? And I kind of just couldn't get this question out of my head. I ultimately wound up doing a master's in public policy, kind of running away from academic neuroscience with my tail between my legs a little bit. but it was really a means to think about how I might move a little closer to a practice in which I was grounding the science I was interested in conducting in what I considered to be the real world, right? Or the social realm.

I'd been studying science for who knows, a decade or two at that point. And I didn't know anything about government or how people worked in practice. And so I wound up studying climate change and security as part of this policy degree. This is in 2015 because of this connection that seemed to be flourishing under the surface in some capacity. And it's been over the past ten or so years that I've indeed tried to move away from the lab per se and out into the real world thinking about the manners in which science works to affect real people, right? Biological processes are bearing out in our bodies all the time. Obviously these questions bear on policy design decisions, policy analysis decisions. And so I've kind of seen the project writ large is one that you know seeks to take the methods of neuroscience and indeed computational neuroscience and the tools of the trade when one's thinking about scientific literature review but then zooming the lens out and really seeking to ground some of these effects translationally, thinking about the manners in which the science in the lab has relevance for real people.

That's kind of been the project of my past decade. And it's led me through journalism, it's led me through the public sector. right now I run the data desk at grist.org which is the United States' largest environmental magazine. we work on climate change and environmental justice and energy justice. And at some point an editor said to me, hey, you know, you have this background in neuroscience. You really should do “this is your brain on climate change” kind of a thing for us. And I was skeptical at the time, despite having seen the occasional study here and there, but as I started to pull at these threads more and more, it became clear that there was a lot of meat on this bone, that there was specifically an intersection worth noting between a changing climate and a changing brain. And so the book that Thomas mentioned is the result of that research effort and it's an attempt specifically to ground the science of climate change in our neurobiology.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Panu, why don't you follow up again? You have another question you often ask people in our episodes at the beginning.

Pihkala: Yes, very interesting to hear about that Clay and that kind of book has been much in demand. So really happy that it's out there. When you think of even earlier past in your life, did you have some things which you later have connected to this interest in climate matters? Were you one of these people who go out a lot into the nature or the modern human world? Or is that something which has come only later in your life?

Aldern: Well it's interesting you ask because I think if you would have asked me a couple months ago I might have said something like, Well, I don't know, I I'm from a rural community, I spent a lot of time outside as a kid. Certainly I have some relationships with place and with places that have changed and those relationships are such that certainly they spur some kind of interest in a changing environment.

But I actually found something in my childhood bedroom just a couple of weeks ago that I think tells the tale a little more specifically. It was the school assignment, which I have no hope of remembering being assigned, was probably in first or second grade, in which we had to design some kind of campaign, I think was the gist. you know, we had to be an activist in some capacity. and mine was all about saving the penguins. I don't think I really got the location correct. I think I dropped them in the Arctic as opposed to the Antarctic and I there were there were quite a few misspellings, but the gist was that I was interested in conservation. I have no memory of having explicitly been interested in conservation at like age ten, but I do have the receipts to back it up and my father was an environmental activist, which again is not really something I knew or understood growing up. He passed away when I was three years old. but over the course of my life my mother has mentioned to me his work you know with the Sierra Club, for example. He worked on Paul Wellstone's campaign, who is a senator from Minnesota, and certainly a senator who thought rigorously about environmental issues. and I think there was some triangulation there in my father's life when it came to thinking through his own environmental activism. So who knows if there was any kind of epigenetic inheritance on that front. I again, you know, wouldn't boast any knowledge of these things growing up, but maybe through osmosis they made their way in.

Pihkala: Thanks for mentioning and the human brain is very complex.

Doherty: Yeah. Yes, the human brain is complex. but what was your father's name, Clay?

Aldern: Brad.

Doherty: So here's to Brad. Father's Day is coming up this summer. So you know, honoring our people. I do think that I personally have in fact even somewhere in my office I have this three-piece poster thing from elementary school. I studied electricity, so I had like eel solar farms and various things. And so yeah, I think almost all of all of us, that's the uniform takeaway when I have people do an environmental identity exercise or thinking about their timeline. Almost everyone goes back to find things from their childhood that, if you're born after nineteen sixty-five, you're going to have that somewhere in your schooling because it was just part of the part of the culture. Yes, that's great. Brain on climate change, let's talk a bit about your book. It's a great book. It's juicy. It goes really deep. Well, I mean, I think you're a great writer, Clay, and you also just bring in literature and philosophy and you go into depth on these things. But I love chapter six. Maybe you could tell us about chapter six, The Body Keeps the Storm. I love that title. And, you know, we had talked about we've been talking about preparing for the summer here and potential heat or fire or things like that. But what would you what were you where were you going? Do remember where you were going with that particular chapter? And I think there was a fire in Gatlinburg.

Aldern: Yeah, yeah. Happy to discuss. you know, in in fact it's kind of funny I just made a reference to epigenetics because I think one of the biggest takeaways in that chapter is indeed an epigenetic takeaway. So maybe that's a nice place to start. The kind of gambit of the chapter is indeed in the title, right? It would it would say that we don't need to go to war to experience PTSD, right? The violence of a hurricane, or indeed a wildfire, or a severe drought, right? That enough. These climate shocks, the climate trauma that results from these brushes up against this violent world, they're enough to seed the symptomology of post traumatic stress disorder. And so the chapter seeks to understand what it is about climate trauma, if anything, that makes it unique and what are the effects, intergenerationally included, of experiencing it? the reason I mentioned the last part is indeed because of this this this epigenetic bit. So maybe I'm kind of giving away the punchline here, but by way of illustration, you know, one of the studies I discuss in that chapter comes from Dr. Yoko Nomura, who's a neuropsychologist at CUNY Queens, and when Hurricane Sandy rolled into town in 2014, she was in the middle of conducting this huge cohort study of expecting mothers called the Stress in Pregnancy Study. And Dr. Namura was interested in getting a sense of all the various exposures to which expecting mothers might be subject, and indeed tracking the relationship between these kinds of exposures and maternal child health outcomes in the decade of life or so. Probably misquoting there a little bit, but that's the gist. And so indeed, Hurricane Sandy, unbeknownst to all of them in the study, waltzes into New York and all of a sudden Dr. Namura has effectively two cohorts instead of one, right? There are mothers who were pregnant at the time of the storm, right? So you had fetuses that were exposed to sandy in utero effectively. And then you had mothers who had either given birth before the storm or indeed conceived after.

And so what Dr. Namura did was indeed follow this cohort-based approach and after the children were born in in each case, track these same outcomes over the first ten years or so of life. And lo and behold, what do you find by preschool age, you know? You know, ten and below, we're talking about things like in the exposed cohort, right, the children who experienced Sandy in utero and then grew up having had that trauma when they were still in the womb. By that preschool age, you see an increase in in major depressive symptomology, anxious symptomology, things like conduct disorder, ADHD. and we're not talking, you know, two percent more likely or three percent more likely. These are these are like 10X, 20X, 30X likelihoods that we're witnessing relative to those who were not exposed to the storm.

And so there's a great question here, which is why? How? How is this possible? And Yoko Nomura would say is stress can be and indeed is inoculating during gestation, right? The world is a stressful place. It would behoove us to be exposed, right? For our developing brains to be exposed to the kinds of glucocorticoid storms, right? To the kinds of stress molecules to which they will be subject later in life, right? If we were not exposed to any stress whatsoever that would not be preparing us for the way that the world is. So stress in pregnancy can be a good thing. And indeed, in these kind of inoculating doses, it is. The problem is that everybody has a breaking point. And if one experiences something like a hurricane, lo and behold, the effects are going to be pathological in nature. And where the epigenetics comes in here is that unfortunately, because we're probably talking about epigenetic changes, because we're not necessarily talking about a genome being altered in some capacity, but rather we're talking probably about protein expression. We're talking about genes kind of being upregulated and downregulated as a function of stuff like methylation sites. When that happens and you see the behavioral phenotypes that we observe in studies like these.

There are more alarm bells going off because unfortunately epigenetic changes are heritable as well, which means the children that we're seeing with these elevated risk profiles are likely to pass on those same epigenetic markers to their children. So now we're talking about this kind of intergenerational memory of climate trauma being imprinted in this kind of neurocognitive or neurobehavioral capacity. down the line. When of course the, you know, hypothetical grandchildren in question didn't have anything to do with this storm. And so that's what this chapter is about. It's about all the manners in which our bodies encode climate trauma in this manner.

Doherty: Mm. Yeah. For our listeners who aren't versed in neuroscience, do you want to give an accessible explanation of epigenetics?

Aldern: Yeah, sure. So I mean this is a this is a relatively new field, all things considered, of science. You know, it's kind of the it's the system of like chemical annotations layered on top of your DNA. and indeed controls which genes get switched on or off without changing the underlying genetic sequences. So you can kind of think of it as the software settings on top of the hardware of DNA. and it and it basically helps decide which parts of the hardware actually run in a given cell at a given time. that's kind of the core idea. There are a handful of ways these kind of these chemical annotations work. I mentioned DNA methylation being one of them, which is basically the idea that you have these control regions on genes that can that can be tagged. And if they're tagged with methyl groups, a type of chemical, effectively you have the silencing of a gene, right? The cellular machinery all of a sudden can't easily access the DNA to read it because it's kind of been covered up by these methyl groups. Methylation is almost like a dimmer switch sitting on top of these specific genes. And again, I you know, in terms of the study I'd mentioned, I don't think anybody's actually done the relevant epigenetic work to see what's happening in in in Yoko Nomura's Cohort's case. but one can imagine it's probably something like this, because effectively there aren't too many alternatives.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah. Well this is fascinating. I mean, there's a lot of directions to go. I mean what it what it brings to mind to me this idea of eco anxiety, we talk about climate anxiety, where one worries about the climate, but eco anxiety originally was talked about in in relation to chemicals in the environment. That’s my understanding of how the term was first used in the media around endocrine disrupting chemicals. But it's sort of like this epigenetic stuff in the sense that part of the heart of eco anxiety is that it's these small kind of mysterious processes in the world, in the environment, in our bodies, in our DNA. Out in the world, chemicals that are just hard to hard to pin down and it's hard to find them. We know they're out there. It prompts this kind of like existential anxiety like I know a little bit about epigenetics but I'm like but really my DNA is turning on and off and from a storm and even though it's understandable and it's not a death sentence or it's not deterministic to who we are as people. It still feels that way to me, like it's threatening, like something's beyond my control. did you find some of that in your in your work or personally or in your writing?

Aldern: Yeah, I think I think the word control there is a big one for me. I frequently think about these effects, the relationship between a changing climate and a changing brain or a changing mind, in terms of control, in terms of loss of agency. I wouldn't say I'm somebody who subscribes to a particular definition of free will that's really getting too beat up here. and yet we love to imagine that we have something called free will. We love to imagine we are in control of our actions. But if I put twenty studies in front of you right now showing you that there's pretty reliable relationship between something like a temperature deviation and the likelihood of you maybe punching the person next to you on a bus, or yelling at the postal worker at the post postal office or offering up some act of online hate speech, which I imagine you probably won't. and yet we know that at the margins, all of these things increase in likelihood with higher temperatures relative to what one traditionally experiences. So where's the free will there, right? We have evidence that the environment reaches in and tips the scales.

That is part of the gambit of the title of my book, right? It's I'd argue that the environment is always kind of reaching in, the climate's always kind of reaching in and adding a little more weight, right? Forcing your hand a little bit in a certain direction. And it's usually imperceptible. I don't think that it's impossible to you know, train ourselves to recognize these moments. But for the most part they operate subconsciously. We are these billiard balls that are constantly being bounced around by our environmental conditions. And indeed that's what helps us survive, our ability to respond to the environment. But lo and behold, there's a narrative here that says, well, as the climate forces our hand in these manners, we are subject to less and less control in the way that we tend to imagine.

We are in the first place. it's I think a motif for me that runs through a lot of this literature, the notion of a loss of agency. Right? We think about that a lot in the eco-psychology literature. We think about you know when it comes to something like eco anxiety or climate anxiety, these you know depressive or kind of ruminative effects where if you are staring down the barrel of this doom.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Aldern: You know, the thing that you wind up doing is just not wanting to get out of bed. unless you have some route to action, right? Unless you have evidence that the efforts that you're putting forth matter in the first place. Without evidence of that action though, you don't feel you're in control. And lo and behold, we observe the deadening depressive effects of climate anxiety.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Aldern: when there is no evidence of control.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah. So climate anxiety and climate grief or depression, you know, tend to go hand in hand for sure. Yeah, what are you thinking, Panu?

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks a lot for all that. That's very important and points to some key existential lessons and challenges of this time, but perhaps also some previous times that accepting that humans have influence on things, but humans are not really ultimately in control of everything. And this of course is related to notions in Western culture and science about how much in control we can be and how much dominion we can have and so on. So it's a tough lesson to really accept that we can do things but we also have to live with uncertainty and course uncertainty and uncontrollability are key elements in anxiety research.

A friend and colleague of mine did a series of radio programs and talks called Climate Change in Me in Finnish. So that's what I'm hearing here. That's how climate change is in us and in us all. How are you personally coping with all this, Clay, may I ask?

Aldern: Yeah. Mm. Mm. Yeah. Well, no longer seeking to compartmentalize between climate work and the rest of my life. I think for a very long time I went to work as an environmental journalist and my day job was writing about the apocalypse and then I would go home and kind of turn that part of me off and try to cook dinner and have a normal life and see friends. And you know, there was a there's a day I was reporting this book in which I was reading this study about you know increased COVID mortality rates as a function of point source emissions. Right. There was this moment in the United States early in the pandemic when enforcement of EPA regulations was cut such that you saw an increase in these kind of smokestack emitters all around the country because nobody was inspecting these facilities or checking permits or whatever the case may have been in a given facility. And the study was a follow up that said, well in the counties where that was true, do we see kind of any effect on COVID mortality? And, you know, of course it's a respiratory disease. Like lo and behold, in the areas in which a lack of enforcement was related to an uptick in emissions, you also saw an increase in COVID mortality. And I just remember reading this paper and being like so depressed as if I was like, this is rough, this is really rough. I like I got to take a break. And I kind of shut my computer and looked out the window. And you know, it's like 2021-2022, the sky is completely orange because it's summer in Seattle and there's a wildfire outside and it's like raining smoke, excuse me, raining ash. And there was you know, there was no escape. It was it was just the weight was right there. You know, I was feeling the weight and it was such a reminder that there is no compartmentalization, that by definition, the climate is here all the time.

You know, we are enmeshed in our environments, to borrow a word. and of course it has always been and will always be that way. And so, you know, Panu, to answer your question, you know, how am I coping? I I'm seeking to remind myself that there is no compartmentalization, that there is only enmeshment, and that the best we can do is notice the manners in which the enmeshment is bearing on our internal experience and indeed our actions, our behavior, our mental, emotional, spiritual health. I'm mostly trying to be pay better attention to those effects and I think it is with this this kind of mindful presence, with this grounded attention that we can indeed perhaps regain some of the loss of agency, some of the loss of control that we were just talking about in in in the previous segment.

Doherty: Yeah. This is really great. so we could go in a lot of directions. I want to just show in a couple of things and then we'll toss it back to Panu. Yeah, Craig Anderson, the psychologist, when I started studying environmental psychology, that was one of the first strongest findings in environmental psychology is that heat is related to violence. and so it's a really standard understanding. But I also I think it's nuanced. for listeners, it doesn't mean that just because it's hot you're going to go beat up people. I think part of the heat thing, and we maybe talk about this again another time, is that it's also heat relative to what we're used to. Like a heat wave just on its own—many places have hot temperatures all the time around the equator—It doesn't mean that those people are inherently violent. We have to be careful of these cultural stereotypes too. But I do think it's when heat pushes us out of our comfort zone when we're not used to it. And then socio economically we don't have air conditioning. We don't have trees.

So it's complicated. It it's not it's not you shouldn't be afraid of hot weather in a very simple way. It's just again something that we have to you know, part of this big piece we were talking about before the episode is that people just don't anticipate how hot weather can be in the modern world. It's hotter than it has ever been in thousands of years. And so we whatever we think is hot weather, you know, if you're not thinking big enough, as I say. So it's going to be hotter than you think. So this summer we have to be aware that this temperatures can push us way out of our comfort zones, make us uncomfortable, angry, depressed, and we have to think about caring for people and finding people that are needing cooling and so there's a lot of you know inspiring pro social things to go with this in in addition to the hard feelings. I just want to make sure we throw that in there here. but I'll be quiet for now and I'll leave it to you both to help us wrap up today here.

Aldern: Well, you know, you mentioned comfort zones, right? Which is such a reminder, again, to me, of the underlying biology, right? And it's one of the reasons why those deviations away from normal do matter so much more than absolute temperatures, right? I think I you're spot on to point at the risks of a frame that says temperature is all that matters, right?

Pihkala: Hmm.

Aldern: Social Darwinists loved that idea. It was it was the excuse that one could make to basically you know argue that people who live on the equator are lazy. but it's not what the evidence shows. The evidence shows that it's relative deviations that matter, that it's movement away from one's comfort zone. Why does that make sense? Well, because bodies are always seeking to maintain a homeostatic set point. And we know, when we have moved away from our set point. That's what discomfort is. So I would just you know underscore that comment that discomfort is part of the story here. Discomfort is our body telling us something, right? So when I when I speak about in this kind of mindful attentiveness to our own experience I think it's I think it's you know worth

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Aldern: underlining this this notion of affect, worth underlining this notion of the kind of internal experience of the environment. Because if we can pay closer attention to how we are feeling in this world, I think we have a better chance of responding to those feelings in the way that we would prefer more frequently.

Pihkala: Thank you, Clay, wonderfully.

Doherty: Yeah. For sure. Well, this is wonderful. Panu, yeah.

Pihkala: Yeah, in pedagogy and environmental education there's a strand called pedagogies of discomforts. So the idea is that we need to encounter the discomforts and then find ways together to live with it and encounter some hard truths and then find ways to practice compassion and life together after that.

Acceptance is key there. I think also, as you say, to quote Trebbie Johnson, one of our earlier podcast guests, acceptance is not surrender. So it doesn't mean that we just let everything happen, but we can accept what we need to accept and then try to be conscious and flexible in our choices. The listeners, The Weight of Nature by Clay is in bookstores. We'll put links to the show notes as usual. We have to wrap it up here even though there would be a lot to talk about these things that we have just put on the table. But warm thanks on my behalf, Clay, for joining us.

Aldern: Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

Doherty: Yeah, thanks Clay. I look forward to more dialogues. I love that this is an invitation for us to be gentle with ourselves, to take care of ourselves and others in in this hot weather, particularly when it's a heat wave that we're not used to. and Clay, thanks again for your time.

Aldern: Thanks for yours and thanks for your work.

Doherty: All right. Clay, Panu, and listeners, everyone, be well and take care of yourself.

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image credit | **Ariv Gupta**

S5 E21: “Earth From Above” – The Psychology of Seeing Our Planet From Higher Perspectives Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Season 5, Episode 21: “Earth From Above” – The Psychology of Seeing Our Planet From Higher Perspectives

Thomas and Panu unpacked the emotional and psychological effects we experience when we have an opportunity to see our planet and lands from on high. Artificial borders disappear and natural and human systems and patterns are revealed. Artists, explorers, and land and species protectors have long used visions of “Earth from Above” to raise our awareness and consciousness, and you can expand your own vision too.

Links

• Victor Glover Artemis II Pilot
• How Artemis 2’s Easter Message Echoes Apollo History
• NASA's Artemis 2 pilot Victor Glover listens to 'Whitey on the Moon' every Monday. This is why.
• Edgar Mitchell Apollo 14 quote

• Yann Arthus-Bertrand

  • In 1994, Arthus-Bertrand started a thorough study on the state of the Earth sponsored by UNESCO. As part of the study, he made a picture inventory of the world's most beautiful landscapes, taken from helicopters and hot-air balloons.
  • The book from this project, Earth from Above (La Terre vue du ciel) sold over 3 million copies and was translated into 24 languages.

  • Cristina "Mitty" Mittermeier

  • Founded the International League of Conservation Photographers and coined the phrase "conservation photography")

  • International League of Conservation Photographers
  • Sebastiao Salgado
  • Edward Burtynsky
  • Inspirational Female Landscape Photographers

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

Doherty: Hello, I am Thomas Doherty.

Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala

Doherty: And welcome to climate change and happiness, our podcast. This is a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and other environmental issues or environmental problems. But also it's about how to support our own happiness and wellbeing in the modern world, because that's genuine and real just as much as the problem.

So that's where we're at with our podcast. And just before we started, Panu was saying a countdown “five, four, three, two, one” and mimicking what the NASA says when the spaceships go up into space like the recent Artemis mission. And so, our theme today is “Earth from Above” and looking at imagery of nature and the Earth, particularly that it gives us some perspective and how that's really positive for us. This summer, can we stop to think about this? Can we stop to think about this overview effect and Earth from above? Can we use photography and imagery to recharge our batteries when we're feeling down or disconnected? So as we start as I start to open up that conversation, Panu, what’s coming up from your side in Finland and from your recent work supporting environmental activists?

Pihkala: Yes, in my work life I'm still continuing with the Finnish Youth Research Society. The research about young environmental activists and experiences of repression, including threats of criminalization. It's been interesting work interviewing these young people and publications will follow at some point. The general topic reminds me of my earlier fascination with taking photographs myself. I sort of awakened to that when I was around 18. The National Geographic magazine was actually influential for me. Jim Brandenburg, the American photographer who lives in the Minnesota woods, in terrain roughly similar to Finland actually, has an attention to detail and ways to compose photographs that was fascinating and led me to take slide photos back in those times. That was one type of film that you could then project with a machine to the wall and the image quality is very good, but it requires certain handiwork then to make the images with the displayable ones. That hobby also led me to visit many photography exhibitions when I started studying in Helsinki and some of those were quite influential also and it shaped my views about environment and social justice. So, the topic also links with those themes including some issues that we also discussed earlier like space travel and the historical importance of those photos of Earth from space.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I think it's great. And I'm glad you mentioned National Geographic because here in the US, I guess around the world, that is a publication that has brought the power of imagery into people's lives of nature and our other species and different cultures. It's such a paradox, because right now, there's a lot of negative news coming out about various wars and repressions in the world. And just kind of the inhumanity that humans can show to each other, but then there's this true tradition of a sense of beauty and love for nature. And so, I think it's helpful for listeners to just stop and just think about that because Panu mentioned this book Earth from Above by Yann Arthus-Bertrand, which many people have seen. This book is basically pictures of the Earth from the air looking at the beauty of landscapes of various kinds. And that book came out in 1999. And I have a huge, big hard copy of that here at home, as many people do. I guess it's a form of biophilia. It's a form of natural connection to nature that we like these images around us. And so, it's nice to just think about that. I've been thinking a lot and researching about the Artemis moon missions and the different Earth from space photos that are so powerful and epic making. Some of that was accidental, the stories are just interesting. The Apollo eight mission with that famous Earthrise image, the astronaut Andrew said “hey, hand me the camera. Look at that. There's the Earth. Holy smokes”. Cause they're looking at the moon, right? They're pilots. They're test pilots shooting toward this objective. They weren't going into space to take pictures of the Earth. And there wasn't even a sense that that was something important to do, you know, and that was just accidental, with this Hasselblad handheld camera, but yet it becomes one of the most shared photographs in human history. That's a real fact. And the blue marble image, you know, from 1972, the real nice one. That these are the most shared images in human history. They're free because NASA is a government agency in the US and those are in the public domain. So, you or I could just post those on our website anytime you want. That's also very special and nice.

So anyway, I think it's just nice to recognize that apparently the recent Earth set image that Artemis took, which is also a beautiful image, was planned like they were consciously setting that image up because they were aware of this. So, this whole idea of the overview effect that, you know, our astronauts have these numinous feelings of brotherhood and sisterhood and connection to the Earth. We know this. The astronauts know this. That’s a positive evolution in our species, don't you think?

Pihkala: Yeah, the element of surprise was there and there's many stories of those early space flights where the astronauts describe spiritual experiences. The experiences are so powerful that they go to this deep dimension and from space there's the vastness of black space and then this colorful jewel-like planet Earth. And then if we go into the atmosphere of the Earth, like satellite imagery, which has also opened many new horizons and of course also the effects of climate change become more visible from those images, and the Earth looks different from there compared to maps drawn by humanity. Those borders which are so powerful cognitively, they disappear in the satellite images, and the more natural borders become visible. And at least for me and I know for many others, it has spoken of unity between regions and also between people. There's not so many boundaries visible from those spheres.

Doherty: Mm hmm. Yeah, exactly. We see ecosystems, we see bioregions, all that we see river drainages, river valleys, we see the cultivation of plants, we see the water, and all these things, which again are real. And this human map that we have superimposed is real as well in its own way, but it's really nice. It's an alternate consciousness, right? It's an alternate form of consciousness. and that means exactly what it means. We see the world in a way that expands our mind just the way people do psychedelic journeys or have religious epiphanies or transpersonal experiences. It's hard not to have that when you have these real time images of seeing something. Like when you climb a mountain peak, we can get the overview effect. You see all the land stretching around you, because you're actually there. Like you're not making it up in your mind. Like this is actually true. And we can get the overview effect from the window of a plane or a tall building.

So, it is helpful to think about what we do to alter our consciousness in a positive way to get views that get obscured. And then it also is religious for people so that's genuine and honest. The even in the recent Artemis, you know, there's a lot of Christian religion type discussion in the control room there as the integrity capsule was going around the dark side of the moon you know they said “godspeed” and you know Victor Glover the pilot of the Artemis, know, Navy fighter pilot, first African American to be in the International Space Station. He's been kind of an unexpected celebrity of Artemis. He’s also a Christian and has many children, a number of children. And he's really being honest about it, we're going to love you from Earth, and we love you from the moon. He's always using words like love and all this kind of stuff. He has these great quotes like “would love it if we all could agree for that time, just be humans. I'm challenging all of us to think more about unity”. So, he's taking on this spokesperson role, which is really, I think, genuine.

Pihkala: Yeah, and this theme of unity is of course highly significant and something that's great global photography also testifies to. I think that element is there with Yann Arthus-Bertrand showing people from around the world in very different environments but still clearly part of the same human race if I think about some other powerful photography.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Pihkala: For example, Sebastião Salgado, the photographer who traveled a lot in very difficult circumstances among people suffering from various injustices. He had a life mission of testifying to that injustice and also testifying to the unity of humans in various places and evoking empathy for people who had to work often in quite difficult circumstances indeed. So, it's a wide range of effects that photography can have and can take from the local to the global, from space, from the atmosphere and just the ability and possibility to have another view on life and Earth is highly significant, I think, and may shelter us from becoming too fixated on only one way of looking at the world.

Doherty: Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, I was kind of urging us toward the positive evolution, Panu, but I can see that you are dragging your feet there. You need to bring in Salgado and the pictures of the people in the mines!

Pihkala: Yeah. Our division of labor in this podcast works again!

Doherty: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's fine. There's this creative tension all the time. But yes, we could have a whole episode of guests just on famous photographers and then going back to just nature and you know imagery in general. The eye of the photo person and Salgado Edward Burtynsky, the Canadian photographer that takes these big, massive pictures of like techno landscapes, that also is kind of an Earth from above, where it shows us like the hugeness of like huge factories in China and huge like land dumps where there's like millions and millions of old, you know, rubber tires that are just sitting at a dump, the scale of techno industrial civilization. Yeah, so there's all that as well.

But let's stay up in this. Let's keep our head in the sky here for this particular episode. We get a lot of those troubling images in the news every day. So, there's that division of labor in our own minds of like, how do we think about 360 emotions and how do I make sure I can legitimately have my healthy positive emotions every day, not just lapsing into despair about the depravity of some humans so I think you know that that active coping that we have to do for not only for ourselves before our children. I have that Earth From Above book that I bought, and I actually gave it to my daughter Eva as a gift for an Earth Day when she was younger. And now we just have it sitting on a shelf. It's gathering dust, but it's kind of nice to bring it down and look at it. And so, thinking about children and how children and young people need these images and these messages and to know that people are saying this stuff.

I think it's powerful that the astronaut figure who is generally idealized in American culture, like Victor Glover, is able to say things like “this is an opportunity to remember where we are, who we are, and that we are the same thing. We have to get through this together”. I mean, that's real. And that gets into classrooms and filters into society. So, in addition to the spiritual stuff, then there's the protective. There's the impulse to protect, to care and protect the planet, which I think is also super healthy. When I look at these images I don't get an impulse to want to hurt things or destroy things or dig things up. Maybe some people do, but for me, they just naturally prompt some sort of care or gentleness. What do you think?

Pihkala: Or a sense of wonder sometimes. And also, for Yann Arthus Bertrand, many of his photos may show surprising patterns of human activity—in agriculture for example—and there's a certain aesthetic beauty in some of those forms also. There are images which are quite clearly

Doherty: Wonder, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Pihkala: just of striking and beautiful and some are ambivalent but still include beauty and in the academia folks who work with environmental aesthetics have discussed this quite deeply and I sometimes go to listen to those presentations which is interesting they may have some jargon of their own as all academic people do but the beauty in surprising places is one of the themes which comes up from there. It may be that some life forms of nature adapt to things such as not so pretty consequences of human industrialism, but then there's beauty born in those spaces also and that challenges binary thinking about places.

And in my mind, it testifies also to adaptation and resilience. So, it's a broad range of various kinds of images which can be helpful. I think it's very nice to be able to sometimes focus just on more traditionally beautiful nature imagery, whether that is from space or from high places. Ansel Adams is of course an American classic, which is great black and white photography of national parks. So, there's a strong element of photography in environmental protection and activism. It has been used to raise public attention and evoke positive feelings towards far away natural places and let that be recognized and validated here also.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Where do you, in your life, as you live it, where would you go or where could you get the overview effect or this larger view, perspective views, where would you need to go or where do you get that in your life?

Pihkala: Well, technically I wouldn't call it an overview effect, but this wide range, wide scale view I would get from hills. And the Finnish bedrock is very ancient, like 2.5 billion years old, which means that what used to be alpine mountains are now relatively low hills.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Pihkala: But we have lots of local elevation changes. They are not just so dramatic. But that means that there's rocky hills almost everywhere in Finland, except some regions. And even as a child, I liked to climb those. And it's psychologically and evolutionary interesting why so many humans, including myself, like to climb to high places and take a look around. And that's definitely been with me for as long as I remember and in Helsinki where I'm living some of those hills are natural and some are actually results of industrial activity like a hill in Vuosaari, a very eastern district of Helsinki which was born because they built a main commercial harbor there and then there was a lot of sand and gravel and stone and which had to be removed and they built a hill with it and then they planted many different species there. So, it's quite a good place for biodiversity even though it's not technically natural in any way. This could lead us into of course complicated discussions about what we mean with nature and the natural but let's not go there. But it also has a very nice view to the east. There are the archipelago and coastline.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Pihkala: Lots of coniferous trees, we have many of those. So, I do go there many times a year also, often riding my bicycle and being there with the family and boys also, or taking guests who come to Helsinki. So that's the practical thing to do around here. But I know, Thomas, that the elevation differences are quite more dramatic around Portland where you are living.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah, it's neat. We have Mount Hood. it's just over 13,000 feet. That's the biggest peak and we have a number of peaks on the horizon here in Mount St. Helens, Jefferson, and the Cascade Mountains. Yeah, it's interesting. If you go up to Mount Hood, you can drive up to the Timberline Lodge, which is at 8,000 feet, which is a beautiful place. And then you can see the peak and it's quite a well-traveled mountain, even though it is technical to get up to the top. But there's a smaller little peak to the side of Mount Hood that you could see from a distance, and in between there's a little place that they call Illumination Saddle, which just the name itself tells you a little bit about it. And so, I have been there and camped up there years ago, it is really truly the overview effect because you get a chance to see the sunset and the stars and clouds come in and cover the land.

So, you can't see the ground, you're above the clouds essentially. And then watching the sun rise and the shadow of the mountain with the sun coming behind it is very powerful. It's very powerful. In fact, I really have a strong desire to get back up there. It's essentially a day hike to get up there if you walk on the snow. We don't have much snow this season, so it's probably mostly clear.

So, it does take a little bit of adventure to get up there, but it's within the realm of people’s ability. Yeah, we have those kinds of things. And depending on where you live, It's funny that you can get the, can get a sort of an overview effect. Cause like the under-view effect, if you go out into the desert or into the planes then the sky is this huge sky “big sky countries”. That's another, that's another way that people can get it.

Pihkala: Hmm.

Doherty: Yeah, in the city, I think it's a little more challenging, but sometimes you can even get from tall buildings, you can get a sense of the overview effect. I think it's really fascinating.

Pihkala: Yeah, nowadays of course drones have changed photography.

Doherty: Man, drones. I wasn't even thinking of that. But yes, yeah.

Pihkala: because it gives the possibility for a wider range of people to take aerial photos and some of those are really, really neat. And of course, then we all again encounter the many sides of humanity. Drones can be used for violence or for beauty. There are many options for them, and I have to mention even as a passing note that it's very fascinating what they have been able to find with aerial radar technology, for example, in South America in relation to the old civilizations in nowadays jungle areas. Taking a view of the Earth from above has also resulted in different knowledge and views about human history, even large remnants of ancient civilizations which people did not know about earlier on. but have now been revealed. That it sort of challenges some of the presuppositions of modernity, like that this is the first time in human history when such massive civilizations have been around.

Doherty: There is so much. Yes, so listeners, there's a lot here. I mean, thinking about the care of nature, there's the whole International League of Conservation Photographers, which is a whole other angle of this. And these are people that specifically take pictures of nature and other species to promote conservation.

And so, if you're not familiar with the International League of Conservation Photographers, they have a wonderful website that talks about their mission. That's a place where you might find people using drones to take pictures of landscapes and things. Another photographer is Cristina Mittermeier. She was one of the founders of this League of Conservation Photographers. So, she's an example of a woman who's doing this kind of photography. And I do find there's a little bit of a, maybe a stereotype that men have these big grand grandiose kinds of images where women conservation photographers are turning to focus on more intimate images of animals in action. And so, there's a scale piece here to think about like taking pictures of insects and bees and animals and interactions as opposed to these big epic scale images. So, there's a lot of scale that we can play with here.

There's this great quote that I found in my research recently from Edgar Mitchell, who was an astronaut in the 70s and spent about nine hours on the moon surface in 1971 working. Keeping in mind when they went to the moon, they were only there for a very short time, you know, and they had a few hours to work. But you know, you're on the moon and you can see the Earth in the sky. So, it is really mind blowing to think about. But he has this famous more gritty quote. He said,

“You develop an instant global consciousness, a people orientation, an intense dissatisfaction with the state of the world, and a compulsion to do something about it. From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch”.

I love that. I love that quote because it just is so kind of human. It's rougher. It's much rougher than, you know, Victor Glover's nice unity quotes, but it speaks to the same thing. It's like, hey, we got to do something about this.

So, if you feel like grabbing a politician by the scruff of the neck, I totally understand. So, we'll add that to the mix. So yes, I do actually have a goal to go up to hike on Mount Hood this spring and get up to the inspiration saddle. So that is a real thing that I want to try to do.

Listeners, I encourage you all to do your own ways of seeing nature. Again, in the spring and the summer in the Northern Hemisphere, we have these opportunities to get out outdoors, looking at the stars, etc., etc. So that's a good message for our episode today. Panu, do you want to close out this wonderful discussion?

Pihkala: Yes, thanks Thomas as always, it's been fascinating. Always when we go out there's a possibility to find something. Of course, people's places are very different and sometimes it's more difficult than in other places, but there's something which may open up either with a camera or without one. So, listeners, hope you find many things to resonate with your feelings and moods amidst the times in which we are living.

Doherty: Yeah. All right. Well, listeners, I hope you all enjoyed our episode and a little positive boost of energy for you to think about beauty and vision and scale and what we can see and how that inspires us to action.

So Panu, and listeners, and everyone, this is Climate Change and Happiness. You can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com and send us a note and let us know what you think. Panu and everyone: Be well.

View Details

image credit | **Marc Pell**

S5 E20: A View From Wales with Marc Williams Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Season 5, Episode 20: A View From Wales with Marc Williams

Thomas had a great conversation with Marc Williams, a Welsh-speaking psychologist from Cardiff University, and one of few psychologists who, like Thomas, blends clinical and environmental psychology. Marc talked about his formative experiences growing up in West Wales and his recent research on environmental identity and evidence-based therapy for climate distress.

Some Welsh nature terms and sayings:

• “Amgylchedd” – “environment”
• “Cynefin” roughly translates to ‘habitat’, but means ‘place of belonging’
• ”Dod yn ôl at fy nghoed” = ‘returning to my trees’, i.e., returning to a balanced or peaceful state of mind
• “Daw eto haul ar fryn” = ‘The sun will shine on the hill again’ (better days are coming)

Links

• Marc Williams

  • Key Papers:

    • Georgia King, Matt Adams, Nick Maguire & Marc Williams (2026). Reimagining clinical psychology for a changing planet.
    • Jessica Morgan, James Gregory & Marc Williams, M. O. (2026). ‘Taking the green pill’: An interpretative phenomenological analysis of the lived experiences of climate distress.
    • Marc Williams and Victoria Samuel (2024) Acceptance and commitment therapy as an approach for working with climate distress.
    • Marc Williams (2023) Climate distress and social identity: bringing theory to clinical practice.

Fire Danger in Wales: Warning after fires near popular mountain ahead of holiday weekend

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty and welcome to climate change and happiness. This is a podcast show for people around the globe who are thinking and deeply about climate change, but also other environmental issues and their connections with nature and all the relations with our life and our beliefs and our politics and our families. And typically I would be joined by my cohost Panu Pikala, but he's been called away today. So it's just myself hosting, but I am very lucky and proud to have a guest with me today.

Marc Williams: Hello, my name is Marc Williams. I'm a clinical psychologist and researcher at Cardiff University in Wales.

Doherty: Yes, and I'm so excited to have Marc here. I've met Marc a little bit and I've followed a lot of his work. Myself, my career has led me to bridge clinical psychology and environmental psychology, study of people's connections with nature and how that plays into our health and into therapy. And Marc is one of the few people I know in the world who has really mindfully and structurally done a similar kind of integration. So we're going to be talking about that. And if you have thoughts or questions, you can always reach us at hello@climatechangeandhappiness.com and recommend our show to people. Marc, glad to have you here. I know you're coming in from Wales and I'm here in Portland, Oregon, we usually step back and start a little bit of our conversation with the person's background story and a little bit of how you came to be doing this unique kind of work bridging these different kinds of psychology.

Williams: Yeah, well it's been a winding path. Can't pretend I always set out to sort of take this path, but you know, I suppose I was ensconced in nature as a child, grew up in West Wales with nature literally at my doorstep and developed that connection and I would say a sense of identity with the natural world in that this is somewhere I was often quite solitary, somewhere I would think about myself, about the world and then kind of through that and I suppose through relationship with kind of my childhood pets sort of developed an interest in more in kind of animal welfare than kind of environmentalism per se. And, you know, that led to kind of personal choices in my life around diet. But it wasn't until, you know, decades later, really, that this became anything of note in my kind of career. became a clinical psychologist. That, you know, that was an interest of mine. And then just had the good fortune, I suppose years after qualifying as a psychologist to have the opportunity to do a PhD in environmental psychology.

So this was, you know, the remit of that had to do with nature. I had obviously a lot of say in the specifics within that. And I also got to do that in Welsh. So, you know, to write that in Welsh and that was actually the condition of the scholarship. So it sort of brought together, I guess, different parts of myself into one project, which is incredibly kind of fortuitus to have had the opportunity. But then sort of was left with more questions about what do I do with this PhD certificate? Is it decorative? Do I just put it up on the wall? or do I bring that in to my career as a clinical psychologist? I'm sort of still answering that question I suppose in terms of you know how do I use this new knowledge to integrate that within clinical psychology, how to help people who are very distressed by climate change, as well as can I have a role in shaping actually the discipline of clinical psychology to meet this challenge. So yeah, I'd say that's been sort of my journey in a nutshell.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah, this is really great. There's a lot of directions we can go. Let me see what was I thinking here? Well, thought we could, among all these things, I thought we could talk a little bit about this idea of eco anxiety, because I know you've studied this and written about this. Now, this is also an area that I go deeply into in various directions, thinking about it, training clinicians, working with people. So I would love to hear a little bit how you talk about this topic. I know for myself, it's complicated. And I think it's important to think about how you get into it. I was just doing a podcast with some other folks yesterday, and people often ask me “Thomas, what is eco anxiety, is it a disorder? And I have to always step back and say, well, anxiety is a feeling and it's a normal feeling that we all have for various reasons and we can have anxiety about the environment. so that's normal, but it could be a disorder if someone is really debilitated by anxiety where they can't sleep or can't do their work or avoiding things.

But I also recently tell people, well, eco anxiety is also more of an identity. Like when someone says I have eco anxiety, it means they're signaling something to other people that they, you they believe in science, they're concerned about the climate. So it's like a statement of, least that's what I think about statement of identity, social identity. And then, you know, then it goes in a lot of directions from there, and then there's the danger of under diagnosing people's problems and assuming that they're all normal when they might actually be debilitated. So I've been trying this validate and engage model is what I call it, where you validate all the concerns, but you engage where you need to more clinically. So I just want to see how that plays out similarly or differently and how you look at this.

Williams: Yeah, well, you're absolutely right in that it's incredibly complicated and my ideas about this are always developing. I suppose with more people I encounter who would say they experience this, even broader than eco-anxiety, just distress, I suppose, because obviously it can take various kind of, have different kind of emotional emphases. But I think that even what words we use like disorder, this is a of a movement, certainly in the UK, it might be in the US as well, what this word even means and the broader implications of locating something within someone rather than within the broader system. And that there's no end to that debate and there's no easy resolution. But I would say that two things can be true at the same.

Doherty: Yep.

Williams: I think that obviously there is a real backdrop to kind of distress in relation to climate change or eco-anxiety whatever term we use but that there's always a personal story as to why someone is distressed and what particular flavor it takes on. So yeah I mean thinking about that you know when I'm working with people who worry about this there's always something to understand in terms of what are you in particular worried about, what is worrying about it for you, how does it offend your specific values and then that leads on to specific kind of resolutions or interventions, ways that can be useful to them.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love that. I like the idea of resolutions. That's a great way to think about this because that's more open ended. A resolution could be validating students normal feelings because they're studying an environmental topic and or it could be more support or intervening even more strongly with therapy or medication if someone's really debilitated. So yeah, I like that. That that resolutions piece. And It sounds like one of the things you're doing also is really trying to study what kinds of therapy styles are helpful in this in this area and it seems like you've been pretty strong in the broadly in the in the cognitive behavioral realm with ACT therapy and compassion focused therapy. You want to talk a little bit about what you're seeing the trends are and like in the in developing and applying therapies in this area.

Williams: Yeah, it's a really interesting question. The trends I suppose I'm aware of this through some research I'm involved in. I'm supervising a project at the moment that's doing a systematic review of all the different kinds of interventions that are being used specifically actually for young people who have eco-anxiety. And what I find most interesting about this is that most interventions don't have a clear theoretical backing at all and you know that as a clinical psychologist who's had theory and research absolutely drummed into me throughout my training and beyond that's something I'd like to comment on because I think that without theory, we can't really evaluate why something has been helpful. And it makes it harder to have a focused intervention that we could have any hope of being useful in a way that's replicable. So that's what I'm noticing is actually the lack of theory in space. Not to say universally, but in a lot of the papers we reviewed, there clearly wasn't sort of underlying theory that was explicitly articulated.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah, exactly. think there's some general assumptions. It reminds me when I helped start the Eco-Psychology Journal some years ago, trying to do an academic journal in this area and many people came in not really wanting to be questioned about their work. They just would make a statement like, well, the planet is in crisis and, you know, and then, you know, we'd say, well, what way is it in crisis? What do you mean by crisis? And there was a lot of received wisdom about, obviously in crisis, why should I have to explain this to you? So yes, it sounds like you're trying to trying to parse that out a little bit. What are you finding or what are you thinking in the theory realm?

Williams: Yeah. I think so. So I mean, you know, I suppose I've got to own up to obviously my own lens here and preconceptions because as you say, I come very much from a cognitive standpoint and I rely a lot on my prior knowledge of cognitive theory, broadly speaking, and that includes things like standard cognitive behavior therapy and offshoots you could argue to various extents, like Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), and the one I really find most useful, Compassion Focused Therapy. More and more, I think that is a really helpful framework to understand many of the themes that arise in eco-anxiety and climate distress where I find almost invariably there's this high level of kind of self-criticism, extremely high standards, a kind of a burden of responsibility that people are carrying to the exclusion of considering other people's roles and I just think I found some that that's useful in my clinical, I'm trying to write up a case study at the moment using that kind of framework because I think that what's inherent in this idea of compassion is helping people to not just kind of be alert to kind of suffering and people usually are, but their own suffering as part of that and to extend the same compassion to themselves that they clearly have for other people on the planet.

Doherty: Yeah. So listeners, you know, we're talking and there's a lot of therapists in the, in the, listening group that will, will understand this. My understanding of compassion focused therapy, it often comes down to that three, three level model where we have the part of our nervous system that's approaching things and wanting things. and then there's the threat part of our nervous system that's protecting us. And then there's the soothing part, the calming part, the parasympathetic nervous system and the oxytocin and these calming neurotransmitters. I've used that in therapy a lot myself. And I always find that It's very easy for people to say what threats they're facing. Everybody's got that top of mind. And then every day they're approaching something all day, their job, their family, they're chasing things especially in kind of capitalist society. We're taught to approach. But when I say well, what are you? What are you content with or what do you calm yourself with?

Williams: Yes.

Doherty: Hmm, I don't know. I don't know. And so, that's a super useful theory. know, so, yes, and that that's like this podcast, you know, we're asking like climate change and happiness, like, when are we happy? And, you know, our happiness muscle is pretty weak, we might say, or pretty beleaguered.

Williams: What is that? What's content? Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I think that's actually one of the reasons I really like that model is that it's one of the tests of a good theory. I think it's just how useful it is and how much it explains things to people. Therapeutically, you need that to be quite an intuitive understanding. I don't think you want something too hifalutin. You want something that people can immediately connect to. And I find it quite versatile, actually, because some of the specific kind of recurring challenges, I think, for people who are very involved in the climate movement that have to do with just the social psychology of caring about something that others don't as much or aren't as willing to talk about. And you can actually apply that idea that we have three basic emotion regulation systems to help people understand social interactions that might arise, including, well, you know, why are people shutting down when I'm trying to talk about climate change? Well, maybe their threat system is activated. How can we do this in a way that bypasses that, that, you know, helps people feel, you know, energized in a more of a drive system or helps people feel more of a connection with you that, you know, that draws on the soothing system. So you can almost repeat those three models, I think, in various situations, when you're about various kind of problems that arise from being very climate distressed.

Doherty: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Williams: So it's versatile. you know, generally speaking, I would say I really like anything cognitive that brings in an understanding of why is it that you're finding yourself in a constant state of distress? And I think that another really useful aspect of this is what came out from a recent paper that, again, I supervised, which was a kind a phenomenological analysis of climate distress where people were saying “I should be distressed and it would be morally unacceptable not to be. And also, if I weren't distressed, I wouldn't be doing anything to fight climate change”.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Williams: So that's incredibly interesting proposition and almost, it feels like it almost undermines the entire concept of therapy in this space. So that really gave me pause for thought.

Doherty: Yeah, no, this is really great. And this is something I've been talking about with John Frazier, who we just had on our podcast recently, who works with conservation professionals and zoo professionals who, who are incredibly impacted by stress, protecting wild species and, protecting species in zoos and all the linkages between zoos and wildlife refuges around the world. Zoo folks are some of the most stressed people I've ever met but they don't seek self-care because they're very selfless and into animal rights. And so the care needs to go to the animals, not to me. And I think it becomes a badge of honor in a way. And so, yes, that's a paradox. The people that are most distressed, the climate professionals don't really have a rationale why they should take care of themselves. And then the eco-therapists are sort of like helpers looking for clients and can't find the client because the very clients they want to work with are not really interested in what they're selling.

Williams: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, the people I've met have kind of come to me via this website, the kind of climate specific therapy website, and I haven't, you know, haven't had to go out sort of looking. But on the other hand, I can see how many people wouldn't even consider therapy. In fact, it's what came up in this paper, you know, the participants were saying “a therapist would just tell me to stop worrying or stop thinking about this or to not spend so much time being active in the climate space”. And I actually think some therapists do say that, you know, that there's some research to show that these are the kinds of responses some people get from therapists who aren't sort of climate aware.

Doherty: Yeah.

Williams: But I think linked to that what's interesting is that some people, they would like to have a therapeutic space, a counseling space, just a reflective space with someone who they know is essentially not a climate denier because that gives that person some credibility and you know that whatever they say to you, they're not saying it because they're dismissing climate change.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yes. This is this is stuff I talk about in my book a lot. Both ways to validate people's concerns. “Validate, elevate, create” you know my catchphrase. An example of a young client who is doing activism and I said my previous therapist didn't know what a Keeling curve was, which is the measure of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, basic climate science. So what they were saying is my previous therapist had no understanding of climate science. Thus, couldn't really, I felt like they couldn't understand me or take me seriously. Yeah.

Williams: Yeah. And I think that also brings in a kind of an interesting question when it comes to the role of the therapist, because what I've found is that there's the risk that almost someone seeks out permission within the therapy space to do a certain thing. I think this can happen with the question of, should I have children or not? Which is very at the forefront of some young people's minds.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Williams: where the therapist could be in a position where there's an expectation that they'll say, yes, you may. You know, I'm not a climate denier and I know what the science says and I still think you're okay to go ahead. Where I actually think therapy can be hugely beneficial, not obviously in, you know, giving people any kind of advice in that direction, because I don't think that's the role of therapy, but in helping someone to understand “What are the factors that you're drawing down to help you make this decision? How much are you relying on your view of what's right and your kind of intrinsic values? How much are you relying on fear of what others might, how others might judge you either way?” That's another part of social psychology I think of eco anxiety that that is operating for some people is almost the fear of judgement.

Doherty: Yes. Yeah, I suppose that goes that goes in every direction because some people are isolated, which is one of the big risk factors. And so some people are fearing judgment because their very beliefs will be judged by their family or their community negatively, like they'll be made fun of or intimidated even. Or then or on the other hand, they're not they're not green enough, they're not eco enough. I think that's what happens in like extinction rebellion and some of these subcultures. Like then it's a race to see who's the most green, who's going to put in the most hours. who's going to risk getting arrested, that kind of thing.

Williams: Yeah, you know, again, what I like about compassion-focused therapy, is it has the base of—really something similar to existential therapies—that idea that well there are certain kind of undeniable facts about the difficulties of just living and I would say that one of those is that other people will judge you no matter what you do and so with the decision like having children, you know, the truth is that whatever decision you make, someone's going to judge you. The question is, what's your decision based on your own judgment?

Doherty: Yeah. We've got a little more time, so I want to swing back to the Welsh, the specific Welsh context, I think is really unique for you in terms of the language. But I do want to say it does sound like even though you're a cognitive practitioner, a lot of what you're talking about sounds very existential.

Williams: Mm-hmm. I think so. mean it's hard not to integrate things with something so complex and that presents so many different ways. I think I'm always bringing it back to well how can I how can this be expressed in cognitive terms? I like a kind of theoretical consistency, you know, I suppose I'm not in favor of sort of eclecticism, I like the integration.

Doherty: Yeah. No, that's great. And I think in your discipline there is really the model for us moving this field forward to actually be taken seriously among other therapists who do the deep theory work and frankly see, you know, eco therapy, eco psychology is really a kind of environmentalism that's not necessarily done the work to make itself a therapy yet. So anyway, this is really great. Where was I going? yes. Okay. So yeah, let's bring it out into the world. You mentioned there's a new government in Wales. And so I want to bring this into even how you think about your role in society as a person yourself as a citizen. But also, did you notice special things about doing environmental psychology or eco therapy when you were writing and working in the Welsh language versus English?

Williams: Yeah, first of all, I don't know if specialist is the word for this, but just the added challenge was almost like a personal challenge to translate concepts into Welsh because I learned Welsh in a non-academic context. After school everything was in Welsh. In school, my degrees were in English up until the PhD. So, you know, learning to translate concepts was an added sort of challenge there. But I think that one of the interesting things is just thinking about what kind of language embodies in terms of nature because what I found was when I was trying to translate certain concepts you realize that you could only go for an approximation with some things and that you know which is an odd thing to say

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Williams: It even makes you think about what does translation even mean in that case, you know? Words like Cynefin, which I guess again loosely translates to habitat, is a word we use to describe sort of the place where we belong. I think it just sort of shows in my mind that the history of the Welsh language and maybe of the Welsh people is one that's quite close to the natural world. It's possible that I'm taking this reasoning too far, but it sort of led me down a path of thinking, does that mean that almost our identity has been more close to nature in terms of how we conceptualize ourselves?

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Williams: If we're ready to refer to our own environment as a habitat, that means seeing ourselves as quite similar to the natural world. Actually this was kind of the topic of my PhD was part of it was nature connectedness. Part of my thesis was that we should conceptualize this within kind of social identity theory. That nature connectedness reflects a sense of social belonging to the natural world, like we'd belong to any other human group.

Doherty: So in Welsh, the word for environment is habitat. The use for the word that we, the English, use environment. Is that how that works?

Williams: So it's different. So the word for environment is Amgylchedd, which actually literally means the same as the word environment. Guess it's like the French; it sort of refers to stuff that's around us and it's the same in Welsh. Amgylchedd is like stuff that is circling us.

Doherty: Uh-huh. Yeah.

Williams: Whereas Cynefin is more specifically, you know, refers to kind of a place where you as a person might belong, you know, like your kind of your hometown or your culture. it's more abstract in some ways.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love it. When I went to New Zealand, I learned about the Māori language and the idea of Tūrangawaewae or standing place. This really rich concept of my standing place where my tribe or my iwi is located and are in place. And then I have a certain authority and protection over that space but standing place I love because we can also form standing places too. We might not necessarily be gifted one by our culture, but we could choose a standing place, which then moves into stewardship and being connected and rooted and having a sense of place. And so it sounds like you worked with all those kinds of things.

Williams: Yeah, I mean, you know, not much of this came in. It's quite, you know, it's a psychology kind of PhD, so it doesn't really go much into those other things, but it sort of sparked those ideas. And Māori is interesting, because I think that's the place that's just that pushes Welsh off the perch for having the longest place name. I think maybe in Māori they have the longest and then Welsh comes second. But place names are another interesting one. In Welsh they're very kind of, I think they're called toponyms, so they always refer to, not always, but a lot of the time to geographical features.

Doherty: Uh-huh. yeah.

Williams: Which is also interesting because some of them, those purported geographical features no longer exist. what's encoded in the name is almost like a past that's no longer there.

Doherty: Yeah. Like the path that crosses over this river or something like that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, that's as fascinating. There are so many directions we can go. I want to wrap it up with something practical. And I think, I believe it's positive, but we'll see. You talked about some new government changes in Wales.

Williams: That's it.

Doherty: And do you see that as being helpful for Wales in terms of it as a nation and in terms of, you know, adapting to climate change and things like that?

Williams: Yeah, I think so. I mean, whenever I think about adapting to climate change, I was divided into mitigating, trying to actually prevent more climate change as much as possible, and then adapting. I can see it helpful for both. Certainly, there's more power, I guess, to adapt locally. Obviously, any mitigation has to be a global effort. But Wales is very vulnerable, especially vulnerable within the UK to flooding. So there needs to be enough funds within Wales for council for example to kind of not just react but to prevent damage from flooding. I don't feel that there has been enough of that thinking up to this point so that my hope is that the new government will take that seriously.

They certainly came on board on a platform of you know being more climate conscious than I'd say previous governments and I think we just have such a problem with recurring flooding where an area might experience flooding over and over again over many years. So that's the kind of thing I'm hopeful about, that there could be better preventative approaches for those kinds of problems that we have.

Doherty: But it sounds like they're generally aware of the problem and not a denying style of government.

Williams: Yeah, I don't think they're denying style. They're very kind of concerned, I'd say, conservation in general, including language conservation. I think they feel like they kind of go hand in hand. I also don't want to sound like a spokesperson for any particular kind of government. It's just time will tell, isn't it? I don't know what they'll be like. so far, there's a lot of positive energy coming out. essentially, their main aim is to try and decentralize power more from Westminster so that Wales has more control over certain functions. At the moment, it's only certain things it can do with more kind of devolved powers and not to get too technical but renegotiating a specific formula that determines how much money we get. Which at the moment is I think there's a compelling argument to say that it's not enough. So with more of those powers I think we'll be more freed up to adapt to climate change.

Doherty: Yeah, so some more self-government more autonomy, which of course plays into a long, long, long history, which we won't have time to get into. But, yeah, but it's a really proud and interesting culture. So it's really neat. And I love the language piece. Well, we're going to wrap up for now. We could easily go on as we always say so many things.

Williams: Yes, yeah.

Doherty: Marc, I just really am proud of your work. I think it's really great what you're doing. It's very inspiring. And we're going to have a bunch of links in the show notes if you're interested in some of these research studies that Marc has been working on. They're very helpful for eco therapy people. So we'll put some links in there and I'll make sure to get some of those Welsh terms properly spelled for our transcript and for our show notes.

Williams: Yeah.

Doherty: And anyway, Marc, what are you where are you going for the rest of your evening there?

Williams: Well, it's turned into quite a sunny day, so I imagine I'll take a nice little stroll on my way back home. And we've got a bank holiday weekend here, so we're looking forward to just a long weekend of relaxation.

Doherty: Alright, well that's great. We're recording around the Memorial Day holiday here in the US, so we actually have a longer weekend too. So it's that time of the season where people are turning to the outdoors, at least in the Northern Hemisphere. And so here's wishing a good season for people and good and safe season. And Marc and listeners and everyone, Panu, where you are, be well.

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image credit | **Ali Kazal**

S5 E19: On A Career in Climate Wayfinding: With Katharine Wilkinson Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Season 5, Episode 19: On A Career in Climate Wayfinding: With Katharine Wilkinson

Join Thomas and Panu to listen in on their great conversation with Katharine Wilkinson who reflected on her career as a woman working in climate science and policy, and how she reached back to her roots with her latest book and program Climate Wayfinding.

“Sometimes I think the paradox of calling is that we have certainty and uncertainty in the same breath.”

— Katharine Wilkinson, from the episode

Links

• Katharine Wilkinson

• Books

  • Climate Wayfinding (2026)
  • All We Can Save, (2020) a collection of writings by 60 women leading on climate, co-edited by Ayana Elizabeth Johnson and Katharine K. Wilkinson
  • Between God and Green (2012)
  • Climate Wayfinding Program
  • Project Drawdown

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to climate change and happiness. This is our podcast, the show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and other environmental issues, including your positive connections with nature and your values. This episode should be coming out in the summer of 2026. And we'll be trying to anticipate a little bit about what we're going to be finding in the summer. We are really lucky to have a special guest with us today.

Wilkinson: I'm Dr. Katharine Wilkinson. I'm a climate writer and teacher. I co-founded and lead the All We Can Save project and recently published the book Climate Wayfinding.

Doherty: Yeah, and we've been chatting with Katharine. Katharine is someone we don't know personally, but we know of professionally. Katharine is kind of a veteran of climate science and communication and more recently, public expression. She has her new book Climate Wayfinding which is really great and accessible. And she's been traveling around talking about this and we're really lucky to grab her coming in from her home briefly in Atlanta, Georgia. And I'm in Portland, Oregon, and Panu, as we know, is in Helsinki. Panu, do you want to get us rolling on our conversation today?

Panu: Warmly welcome, Katharine, also on my behalf. Lovely to meet you. We often start by asking something about the person's journey towards what they later became. Would you like to share something about how did you end up being so intimately involved with environmental and climate issues?

Wilkinson: Thank you, Panu, and thank you, Thomas. It's really a pleasure to get to have this conversation and get to know you both a bit beyond the work that you've done so brilliantly.

I think like a lot of people, my arrival into this work had educational roots. When I was a sophomore in high school, freshly turned 16, I spent four months at a wonderful experiential school called the Outdoor Academy in the Southern Appalachians in Western North Carolina. So I lived in the woods with 25 kids for four months and sustainability and ecology were woven into the ways that we operated as a community, what we were learning in the classroom. I started to read Mary Oliver's poetry. I read Daniel Quinn's novel Ishmael. But I was also having firsthand encounters with the ecological wounds of that part of the world. Mountaintop removal coal mining, clear cuts for industrial timber in the national forest.

And so I was both deeply enlivened by how we were living and what we were learning. And I was utterly heartbroken about the encounters I was having with the gap between the way that we can do things and the way that so often in dominant society we do things. And I still have the journal that I had at that time at the beginning of the semester—we all made a hand bound journal—and I can remember this absolute steadiness of hand when I wrote simple, but profound words “want to help the world, be connected with the earth, change the way I live.” And I remember just so much clarity and conviction about that.

Panu: Hmm.

Wilkinson: And I think sometimes the paradox of calling is that we have certainty. Sometimes I think the paradox of calling is that we have certainty and uncertainty in the same breath. And I had no idea what that would mean for my life moving forward.

Doherty: Hmm.

Wilkinson: And in a lot of ways, I feel like that was a moment of kind of setting the compass arrow, so to speak. And I've zigged and zagged through climate work now from those early days of youth activism for 27 years and counting. Yeah.

Panu: Warm thanks for sharing that, that's very inspirational and testimony to the power of these social experiences outdoors. So a nod to all of the folks around the world who are doing environmental education and outdoor education and all that stuff.

Wilkinson: It's so powerful.

Panu: And very often the impacts are seen only years and years later on or the full impacts. Of course something is visible right away and we have an earlier episode for example with Louise Chawla who has been researching these factors and moments and influences which cause people to go into environmental or nature-oriented trajectories and I hear very powerful ones here and also reminded of the saying by a woman from the east coast that “the world called and I answered”

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Wilkinson: Yes, yes, yes, I do think there is there is a real calling that happens for so many of us and often it is a combination of heartache of some kind and enlivenment about the possibilities.

Doherty: Mm hmm. Yeah. that's wonderful. I think for our episode, since we have a lot of experience here, I think it's good for listeners to realize that what we see now is formed over many years of thinking in society. And even Daniel Quinn's novel, Ishmael, I haven't thought about that in a long time, but I remember reading that at one point. So there are novels and books, even like Katharine’s book or my book or Panu's work that people are reading now, but there were things that we were reading, you know, 20 years ago or 30 years ago that were influencing us. So it is like this long, long, long tradition of environmental protection that most people share, even though we forget that and don't see it. Yeah, there's so many directions to go, but I was curious, Katharine, to talk a little bit, if you wanted to reflect on the beginning of your career, because as we chatted earlier, women are in many roles of leadership now in the climate movement, either in science or policy, government, but that wasn't always the case. And it seemed like that was an explicit focus for you, or maybe you were pushing against some boundaries when you got started. Could you want to take us back in time? I think young people might find this interesting.

Wilkinson: And this is a fun invitation, Thomas. It's taking me back actually to a conversation I remember having with my first boss out of college. So I spent a year working for the Natural Resources Defense Council, one of the big environmental NGOs in the US. And was doing a lot of work on the ground in Southern Appalachia in Tennessee. And my boss was in New York, and I was up there for some meeting or another. And we went to have lunch and he said, you just need to get a PhD. It doesn't really matter what it's in, but you're going to need to have that for credibility in this space.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Wilkinson: And I think it's a testament to what the environmental movement was like at that time. And it really did feel like if you didn't have the bona fides, if you didn't have the research chops, if you couldn't come in with, you know, a PowerPoint presentation full of charts and graphs and data, you know, good luck claiming a seat at the table. And I did do exactly that. The following year I went to the University of Oxford and started work on a on a PhD.

And I did that kind of in my own funny, wildly interdisciplinary way, looking at what was at the time kind of a burgeoning—movement is too strong a word—but initiative around climate within American evangelical Christianity. So it was a mashup of public discourse and religion and politics and culture and very qualitative work.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Wilkinson: But I can remember coming out of that PhD and even after publishing my first book, which was an academic book called Between God and Green, and in some ways still feeling like I kept finding myself in rooms where I didn't feel like I could be taken seriously. And they were often rooms full of mostly men, mostly white men. And certainly, that is where the microphones were sitting. And some years into my own climate trajectory, I found myself feeling pretty darn frustrated about that as a matter of efficacy, as a matter of fairness, as a matter of honoring kind of the full suite of talents and wisdom that we have in this community.

And in 2019, Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson and I were at a conference together where we were watching these same gender dynamics play out. And we said, we've had enough of these conference sessions. We went on a rage hike along a nearby river. And I shared with her that I'd been thinking about an anthology of writings on climate by women as a way to do sort of a collective chorus uplift, if you will. And that's the work that became the All We Can Save anthology that came out in 2020.

And happily, I think in the last now almost six years since that book came out, it has shifted. I think there is much better representation, but still if you look at boardrooms, if you look at national legislatures, if you look at the places where climate decision making is happening, we still aren't anywhere close to gender parity in terms of who is at the table making decisions about our shared future.

And when that is the case, we know that the outcomes for the planet are better from the community level to the national level. Certainly, we saw that in the Paris agreement negotiations when Christiana Figueres was leading those. It's still something that we need to continue to work on. And what's been interesting for me to reflect on with this new book is that I think in some ways I am reclaiming ways of knowing and things that I knew to be important in the earliest days of my own journey, whether that be poetry, whether that be centering the human spirit, whether that is the building of community. But it took me a long time to really hold and center that in my own work, because these are the things that are coded as feminine in our world, and thus often dismissed as “nice to have”. But really, you know, all the matters of the prefrontal cortex and things with hard numbers and linear trajectories, you know, are still often the things that are celebrated.

Panu: Hmm.

Doherty: Yeah, that's great. I mean, you're more secure, developmentally, that's what we also talk about that in our podcast.

Wilkinson: Yeah, but also but also more secure professionally, right? There was something about kind of earning my stripes maybe in the space that then made professionally safe to explore more of this terrain.

Doherty: Yeah. because if you had showed up with a poem and a playlist in those earlier meetings, it wouldn't have gone very well.

Wilkinson: Yeah, I really tried. I was the lead writer on the book Drawdown, and I really tried to advocate for including just one Mary Oliver poem in that book, and I was resoundingly shot down from that idea.

Doherty: Yeah. Hmm.

Panu: Too bad, too bad.

Wilkinson: I know we need we need the poets. We really do.

Doherty: Yeah. So it's going it's going both ways. I feel like I was at a climate week event in Boston and I was really thinking that they were missing just the arts broadly at the climate week. In terms of not just arts as entertainment but the arts as agents of change. We’re going in lot of directions in our society around climate. All of these trends about bringing women, and that is still true. Most of my training groups with therapists, many of my students, many of the climate psychology alliance people are women. In fact, I'd say it's like 80 to 90 percent women. So in certain areas of the climate movement, there are a lot of women leaders, women centric. But yes, as you say, at the true power seats of the table, the true decision making behind closed doors, it is still really an old boys club still to our detriment. It's easy to think that we've made progress, but, not in all areas. So that’s really interesting.

Wilkinson: I have to share one other gender observation from the book tour with climate wayfinding that has been very interesting to me that even in rooms that have been a really kind of beautiful representative gender mix, most of the men have walked out without the book.

Doherty: Hmph.

Wilkinson: And I think that I actually sort of challenged a group last week to say, you know, if you think that this book is not for you, there may be something in this book that people you work with need you to have, right? That stretching into these spaces of the body, the heart, other ways of knowing, other ways of engaging, that are not about sort of rational debate and laying out strategy, right? But bring in these other dimensions. You may not think you need them, but there may be people that you're working with that needs you to have them. And that was interesting. For a while, I thought, maybe this is just because of all we can save and, you know, kind of the centering of women and that work. But I kept seeing this gender dynamic come up that I found fascinating and a bit discouraging because I think we all need to be cultivating the full spectrum of our capacities in this time.

Doherty: Yeah, I agree. So you're privileged to get into some more high-powered group planning and things like that. So yeah, that's a paradox. I've been talking about with a lot of my climate therapy, climate psychology people, environmentalists pay lip service to the need for self-care. But when it comes down to it, they aren't necessarily the best at this. And they do revert to the science and the instrumental. My needs, my personal needs, are second, almost in a self-punishing way. That's a whole deeper level of this.

Panu: Yeah, that would be an interesting discussion of the psychological models which are often unconscious among various people in this case, environmentalists. And of course for men it's often a tragedy of socialization that there's been so little opportunities for practicing free somatic movement for example.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Panu: Or given credit for being sensitive with creativity and arts, for example. So, it's a big societal problem. There might be listeners who haven't checked out what climate wayfinding is about. So, in a nutshell, what is it about?

Wilkinson: Well, this is an excellent question. So, Climate Way Finding is a book that actually grew out of a program that we've been running at the All We Can Save project for the last four years that was designed to help meet people in this increasingly mapless world that we live in.

This is quite literally true as the climate crisis changes our physical landscapes, but it's also true for us that maps are coming up short internally, organizationally, culturally. Our ways of sense making and navigating are not working. And I think we hear that navigational challenge in the very questions that people ask, and especially in that persistent drumbeat of a question “what can I do? What can I do?” And over the years, I started to think about that question, to use a fungal metaphor as more of a fruiting body of bigger, deeper wonderings that people are holding, certainly that I myself experienced holding.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Wilkinson: And there are entirely too few spaces to take and hold those big questions. And to work our way through the ache, through the doubt, through the sense of isolation and overwhelm or burnout for folks who've been in this work for a long time and towards clarity and a sense of possibility, connection and footholds for forward momentum. So that's what we've been doing with the Climate Wayfinding program. And in its simplest terms, it uses a range of modalities to help people look inward with care, look outward with curiosity, and look forward with courage.

And we started piloting the program. then started training facilitators. It's running now on over 50 college and university campuses across the US and Canada, but we're a tiny nonprofit and the needs for wayfinding are not just for students, right? People of all ages and career stages and climate newbies and burned-out veterans. Like we're all trying to orient and navigate this very tricky time.

And I had kind of a hand to forehead moment of like, yeah, I make books. That's one of the things I do. And we could take the ideas and the content that had been developed for the program and bring it into a book form and not just a book that talks to you, but a book that will walk with you through this journey of exploration, bringing in, of course, bookie things like essays and poetry and stories, but also journal prompts, creative mapping exercises, guided meditations, and even a collective reading group experience. trying to put the journey of climate wayfinding in the hands of anyone with a library card and internet access.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I like integrated book groups really into the content and process of the of the book. Yeah, yeah.

Wilkinson: These questions are too big to hold alone. You know, we really do need to hold them together.

Panu: Yeah, and I love the metaphor of wayfinding for many reasons. One is that I have a long history with maps and orienting the sport where you run with the map in the woods and the idea is that it shouldn't be too easy or you lose interest to it. Well, one could argue that the global situation is a bit too difficult, but anyway, there's a certain dynamic of realizing that uncertainty is always there if there's possibility for something truly big and important. So, it goes to sort of philosophy of vocation and calling, which we touched on briefly earlier on. But if we think of landmarks or things that give us direction, what would you say are some of those? I know that you are writing about them in the book, but as a metaphor and a substance question, what helps us orient in this kind of world?

Wilkinson: So, I think about that inward outward forward as almost creating a kaleidoscope. And that moving through those three lenses kind of ongoing and cyclical actually helps us see more clearly the path ahead.

And of course, the looking inward is in part about the emotions that we bring with us to this topic that this topic brings up within us. You have both done such amazing work on that. I was delighted that we were able to include the climate emotions wheel in the book.

Panu: Mmm.

Wilkinson: And welcoming those emotions in not just as something inconvenient that we would very much like to settle or have go away, but as sources of guidance as teachers in a way as an expression of life itself kind of rising up within us that I think when held with support and compassion can become profound sources of direction about what matters and where we want to send our time, our energy. But we also do, looking inward at the unique expressions of life force we each bring to this wild party of being human on earth, which are the things that give us a sense of inner power and deep joy. And sometimes our gifts, I think, are very clear. And sometimes they have a way of being quite slippery or hard to pin down. And we use a process of kind of somatic reflection to identify those sources of power and joy and then use those almost as a portal to the gifts or the talents that we want to offer and boldly claim in this time.

Looking outward, of course, is in part about what the solutions are. And, of course, we need the mind of the analyst when it comes to solutions. We want to make sure we are steering towards things that could genuinely, meaningfully help. And there are some BS solutions out there in the world.

But my experience with Drawdown was that even when you bring the kind of best of the rational mind and good hard math, what is the toolbox of solutions look like? With our own discernment, it's still an overwhelmingly long list, right? You can flip through the pages of that book. There are a hundred different things, right? Where in the world do you begin? And so, we welcome in the looking outward, our sense of curiosity, wonder. Where does our energy steer us? Not just where does the good mind of the analyst take us? So, kind of melding in the spirit of the artist.

Doherty: Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's great.

Panu: That's wonderful. Thanks a lot.

Doherty: Yeah, that's great because you have the technological expertise because of drawdown. That's a whole other part of your career that we haven't had talked about. if listeners aren't aware, Project Drawdown is a well-known program that really explains how to solve the problems of climate change. We know there's this poly crisis people talk about. There's also a poly solution. There are solutions for almost every technological problem that we have. So, I think maybe we can focus on toward the last part of our talk is what you're seeing out there in the world. To me, a lot of what's happening in climate, reminds me what's what happened in the antiwar movement in this in the 60s and 70s where people started to go inward because they really realized there was a barrier where they couldn't really make the social change they wanted.

Unfortunately, with climate change, we know that it's not so much what we can do. It's what we're prevented from doing, as I say in my book. With all the beauty and the wayfinding, we still have this force that's really stopping us. So, we have to be tough and long-term and savvy politically. That without getting drawn into the politics, you know, context of our time too much, how are you seeing people be creative? Dealing with the censorship and suppression that's happening in the US. I don't want to do the downer thing at the end of the episode, so we know that's tough, but what are the bright spots that people are pushing against.

Wilkinson: Yeah, I think this work has never been easy, but it's maybe never been harder, certainly in an American context. And I've been thinking a lot and in part, this is probably having grown up in Atlanta, where you cannot think about the history of the civil rights movement without thinking about the role of the black church. And when we look at second wave feminism, you know, before any were reaching legislatures. There were consciousness raising circles in living rooms and Quaker meeting houses played an essential role in abolitionism. There's this really important interplay between kind of the big splashy moments of social change that we think about and we're all working towards, right? The big national policy wins, the landmark opinion at the International Court of Justice, right? These big moments that come to mind when we think of what a social movement is and does.

But there's this smaller, quieter, often invisible infrastructure, the more human infrastructure of social change that is so important. And some of its inner, some of its communal. And I think for a movement in duress, you have to reckon with that, right? And you have to reinvest in that. And what I have seen as I have been traveling about with this book is how very much, we need that investment right now in the climate space and the environmental community. But also that people seem game for it in a different way.

I was at a big conference of green building professionals. gave a keynote and then I was running a workshop after and I thought it was going to be mostly about, you know, how to take climate wayfinding and bring it into your organization and build culture and cultivate leadership. And what that room needed to do was to hold hands and sing and cry. And part of what you do as a facilitator is improvise with the needs of who is in the room at a given moment. And so that is what we did. And I wouldn't have thought that that would have been possible in a professional space like that two years ago.

And I am outraged by the reasons for it. But I think we are actually going to be strengthening the very capacities that we have always needed to be a movement and to be leaders and contributors to this work who are not just in it one off, right, not just in it for an action here and there, but in deep, sustained, courageous ways and ways that I think center the realities of what it is to be human on earth in this very tricky time.

Doherty: Well said. Yeah. Yeah, this is a great place to end our conversation that we always say we could we could say more. And that's truly the case. Climate change invites us to think about time in a different way. And this is a long-haul thing. And we're growing through it. So anyway, Katharine, thanks so much for giving us some time here in your busy schedule with your book.

We'll put good show notes in our links for the episode about Katharine's work: All We Can Save, Climate Wayfinding and Drawdown. And so for some people, this will be a history lesson. For other people, it'll just remind you things you already know. Thank you very much, Katharine, and Panu, and listeners for all of our time today.

Panu: Hmm.

Wilkinson: It's really a pleasure to spend this time with you all.

Panu: Thank you, Katharine, and everyone, take care.

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image credit | **Christian Buehner**

S5 E 18: Supporting Wildlife and Conservation Professionals with John Fraser Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Season 5, Episode 18: Supporting Wildlife and Conservation Professionals with John Fraser

Thomas and Panu had a stimulating and wide ranging conversation with John Fraser who reflected on his career as an architect, zoo and museum designer, pioneer in conservation psychology, and creator of innovative nonprofit knowledge and conservation groups. We focused on practical ways to support wildlife and conservation professionals amidst the emotional toll of their globally important work. John also spoke about how social cohesion and community bonds build resilience in small towns like his home in Seward, Alaska.

Links

• John Fraser

  • Google Scholar
  • Dr. John Fraser Receives Prestigious Devra Kleiman Scientific Advancement Award from AZA

  • Also cited:

  • Nathan Geiger's work on active hope (Geiger, Swim & Fraser, 2024, With a little help from my friends: Social support, hope and climate change engagement)

  • Recent CCH episode with Britta Eklöf on the Challenges of Activism and Staying Involved
  • APA Div 34 Society for Environmental, Population, and Conservation Psychology

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is our podcast show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about, well, climate change, obviously, and other environmental issues. And we asked this provocative question about, you know, what does it mean to be happy in the modern world? And when we started this podcast a few years ago, happiness wasn't typically, you know, equated with climate change. But lately I've noticed that, you know, people are aware of the need for resilience and kind of positive support. So, I feel like we've kind of helped to move that conversation forward a little bit. And we are really honored to have a special guest with us today.

Fraser: Thanks, I'm Johnny Fraser. really appreciate you inviting me to your podcast. I'm gonna start again, sorry, I did need to start again. Thanks so much for inviting me to your podcast. I'm John Fraser, I'm a conservation psychologist based in Seward, Alaska, but I also spend a lot of time in New York City.

Doherty: Yeah, and I'm so glad to have John here. I have known him for some time. Actually, we met while we were both in our graduate studies, and we'll talk a little bit about that. And John is really a true polymath. He's an architect, and he's helped to advance the field of conservation psychology, and he's worked in museums and with zoos and aquariums, he's run nonprofits. He's been at the Alaska Sea Life Center in Seward. So, lots we can talk about. Panu, do you want to get us started?

Panu: Warmly welcome John, also on my behalf. Lovely to meet you. I've known your work for many, many years, both in relation to the emotional impacts of doing environmental and conservation work. That was helpful when I was writing an English paper in 2019, but you worked on that a lot earlier also. And then I've been doing a series for Finnish environmental educators about emotions and environmental education. Some of your work and work by you and your colleagues has been highly helpful. So lovely to meet you and we'll talk more about emotions in this podcast. But first I'd like to ask you something about your journey towards a person having so strong environmental values and identity. So how did that happen for you?

Fraser: Obviously, you're talking to a fellow who's retiring next month. So, thank you so much for saying you're actually looking at the things I've produced over my career. It's kind of funny to look back when people talk about my origin story because I've often said, you know, I'm just one of those shallow people that follow shiny objects. I was born Canadian in southern Ontario in Haudenosaunee lands, which is near Niagara Falls and spent in an industrial town, steel town, grew up very close though to one of my father's best friends and we spent a lot of time on his farm. I spent a lot of time with, you know, cows and horses and I didn't know about zoos at all. So, when I became an architect and was pursuing a career in architecture, was working all over the world and was asked to work on a zoo project and they there are a bunch of horses that had kicked down and eaten their barn, which I found unusual. And so I remember saying, that doesn't tell me more about these horses. Tell me about their behavior. I don't understand these horses. I learned about what are we're called Przewalski's horse at the time but are now called Mongolian horses because they no longer use the Eurocentric way of framing it. And these are these tough, tough little animals that are very aggressive. And I said, well, this is unusual, but it's a horse. And so let's think this through. And they were surprised to have an architect to immediately jump to animal behavior before you start to build a barn. That turned into an incredible relationship. And they created my career for me because I was a farm guy, I said, it's a zoo. To me, that is a farm. It's just has a lot more people looking at critters. And as they started talking about the work they do in conservation, or what conservation was, I wanted proof. So I've been one of those people that just asked questions, prove me how it works, show me the way. That that's how I ended up in zoos and aquariums.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Fraser: I was designing master planning, found myself at the Oregon Zoo, and then after the Oregon Zoo, I worked in some advertising for a while on some children's media work, built a children's museum, and was recruited to go to the Wildlife Conservation Society in New York City. It was when I was there, just in that transition period when I was working for the ad agency, that I met Stephen Keller and Carol Saunders. We were together at a conference—both Carol and Steve have passed—and so I'm honoring them by saying there was far too much wine one evening and we spent a very late night with very good wine talking about the problem of environmental issues, not being about the science of nature, but about how people behave. And that really was, I think around 2000. And so Carol and I kept that conversation going. We ended up co-teaching at Antioch University. And that's where the idea came to invite a bunch of psychologists to get together. And that led to the conference that became Conservation Psychology. In parallel to that, I was pursuing a PhD at Antioch University where I met this other fellow, Thomas Doherty, who shared an advisor. And I remember sitting with my advisor early in my school career describing my work at the Wildlife Conservation Society.

How a cup of coffee tipped the balance of what was going on in a meeting. We had a new ad agency show up. They came in, they brought donuts and Styrofoam cups full of coffee for everybody as hospitality. And one of our senior curators slammed the table down, said, these people are morons. I can't work with them and walked out the door. And I was talking to Vic Pantesco about this, my advisor. And he said, that seems an awfully extreme emotional reaction. And I said, well, believe me, you know, she was upset that they would come to a conservation meeting with Styrofoam. It was just, you know, it was to her a slap in the face of all the work she does. And so we talked more about what that, meetings looked like. And Vic said that appears to be an environmental emotional trauma that they're living through and are having difficulty processing. So we went out and did a study.

Doherty: Yeah.

Fraser: This was back in 2005. And that study mapped PTSD to the experience of environmental loss for people working in frontline conservation. It took us from that time seven years to publish that paper because we were laughed at. And this becomes my career, by the way. So I became a conservation psychologist simultaneously with identifying this traumatic issue of understanding environmental change.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Panu: Mm-hmm.

Fraser: When we first presented that at the Society for Conservation Biology in 2007, you would normally do a presentation to a whole bunch of conservation biologists and they politely clap and we talk about the decline of nature and the collapse of the world and everyone claps a little bit and then they all move on and go get coffee. And we presented and you could have heard a pin drop in the room. The room was packed. A pin would have rung around the room. And finally, we started to hear a little bit of sobbing, and somebody said, you mean I'm normal?

And this became, there were no question and answer. It was very simply people saying that rings true to my life. That this is a trauma I carry in my pocket every day. And that gave us hope. To be honest, that shaped my inquiry into what gives people in environmental work hope. And that's the papers that I think Panu, you were talking about working with. Understanding how we can prevail. What does hope, what is the shape of hope? And how does it work within communities and groups and what does social support look like? And so that became, you know, my next career. I ended up leading the wildlife conservation society and created a new nonprofit called Knology, which is a transdisciplinary social science think tank in New York city and ran that organization until I retired in 2022. That changed the world. I got de-tired. I moved to Seward, Alaska for three years, which I'm just winding up right now to help a small conservation organization in Seward.

Think about the social sciences. And I can say proudly today that I live in the 10th happiest city in America because I did the study. I tested to see how happy is Seward. It is the most beautiful place in the world. It's economically stressed. There is a housing crisis. I live in a town where some people don't have indoor plumbing and where heat is a negotiable in your lease. That you may not have heat. It may be wood fire. It's a small village. It's a summer tourism site that is very busy in the summer, but only 2500 people in a fjord. So it's but it's just beautiful. And what we learned was that people are so attached to nature that that is what gives them resilience. That's what makes them feel secure, even if they live if they are housing insecure, living at the low end on subsistence lifestyles, and often in dry cabins with no access to plumbing and no indoor facilities. You know, it’s an outhouse and this is the way people live their lives. But people who are on the lowest end of the income spectrum in our town feel seen, heard and respected by those at the upper end. We're a town that believes in each other and supports each other. 95 % of people who live in the town where I live now volunteer and donate to nonprofits. And we see this sense of social cohesion that is so powerful that it gives me joy and feeds my soul.

Panu: Mmm.

Fraser: So this is why we decided to divide our time between our apartment in New York City and our place in Seward, Alaska.

Panu: Fascinating to hear. Thanks a lot for sharing all that.

Doherty: Yeah. Well, Panu, I know you have experience with small villages and fjords up there in Scandinavia, in the Nordic countries.

Panu: We have lakes more than fjords.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Yeah. What are you thinking about Panu as Johnny is telling this great story?

Fraser: that regions have keywords.

Panu: Yeah, it's moving to hear about the sense of recognition and validation from that silent room. And it's been a big paradigm change in the 2000s in relation to recognition of psychological impacts of doing environmental work. And of course that work is still ongoing and paradigm change hasn't happened everywhere, but situation is very different than it was during those times that you John described earlier. I'm fascinated by the many things that you have been involved with and sounds like there's a great number of different people, but you've been able to find common teams and what I hear from your emphasis such as working together for the common good and taking care of each other seem important to practically all of these groups and probably also a sense of efficacy that people feel that they can do things. So it's inspiring to listen to you.

Doherty: Hmm. Yeah, it is. I was really looking forward to have you on, John, because I knew we could go in a lot of directions. I think, yeah, I think what's helpful for listeners and for young people is to realize, yeah, as I write about in my book, there is a before time where people didn't think about climate change or saw it as some hypothetical speculative issue that was the same experience I had when we did the first American Psychology Association climate task force we were talking about well, you know, there's gonna be mental health impacts of climate change. It's not just gonna be the disasters and the storms and the sea level rise and it's not just the impacts on polar bears. we were still in the polar bear era where people were thinking about polar bears and melting ice flows and we said, well no, this is going to roll out across the world and across the country.

That was before Katrina had already happened. So we saw, we had a glimpse, but people didn't quite connect that with climate change at the time. But then Superstorm Sandy, and then the fires in California, and the smoke and the heat. you know, so now we know. So the future that we predicted and saw caught up with us. And it is notable that the trauma lens that you described, which seemed so far out at the time is not at all—like if we did that talk today you wouldn't even have to preface it. People would be asking you about that or young people are leading on talking about that. yeah, yeah.

Fraser: well, that's a bit of an American view of it, Thomas. I think that the Americans intentionally lived in a denial space when the rest of the world was already acknowledging that the climate change was real. you know, living in Alaska, we are seeing environmental change at a rate that is four times faster than what you see in the lower 48. And I think anybody that's in sort of arctic countries, Panu, I'm not sure you're seeing the same thing, but for us, our salmon are completely changing their whole patterns and habits. We're witnessing trees where there should not be trees. And we're seeing, you know, I live in a town that has had almost no snow for two winters. Now I live in a very tropical part of Alaska. It hovers around freezing all winter, so it doesn't really get too cold. In fact, it never gets below what in Fahrenheit is zero, but minus 20 degrees Celsius, it never gets that cold. So we're living in a very protected area.

But I think the bigger issue is that America was in denial because climate change threatened the American foundation myth. It was fundamental to American identity that prosperity and opportunity to take from nature was unlimited. And that's not true for the rest of the world where people have acknowledged centuries of change and can see and live with centuries of history. America doesn't live in that world. They live in a world where prosperity is just a replaceable, fungible thing, almost like rainforest regeneration. It's not how nature works. And one of the reasons I think is some of my colleagues that helped us with the National Network for Ocean Climate Change Interpretation when we were first starting that project in the 2000s. We were talking about one of the ways that American denial was supported was a lot of effort to make climate change seem complicated.

And when we the story down to its hub, right, its root. The muck and biota of dinosaur dirt, know, dinosaur poop compressed over time becomes something you can burn for energy. So we do, and we end up with basically dinosaur muck in space creating a heat trapping blanket around the planet and that's making it too hot. And once we could say that to a six-year-old and they understood climate change, we said, we don't think we should have dinosaur muck in space. Kids were like, totally bad idea.

Panu: Mm-hmm.

Doherty: Yeah.

Fraser: You know, we don't have to make things complicated. And think I've been very fortunate in my career to say we can simplify a lot of these basic concepts. Right. And often it's the sense of loss of love or acceptance or your foundation myth that is troubling. And if we get to that deep space of where people are and where they find love and how love defines them, then we have the opportunity to give them hope. So that's my career summed up in a sentence, and I guess we're done.

Doherty: Very well said. Very well said. Yeah. It's great. Where should we go here? I feel like there's so many. So I'm just enjoying listening to you, John.

Fraser: Well, why don't I introduce something you may not know I did? Because I worked with some colleagues at NOAA across all of the federal agencies back around 2001 to convene meetings of agencies and nonprofit organizations to think about how we measure environmental education in relation to achieving the agreements of the Paris Accord.

And in developing an understanding as a consensus the group came to realize that in the United States the territories of sovereign nations within its borders were first of all a different framing of what is the United States, what is America. It was not 50 states, it was not Congress, it was a border, a geographic concept that we all agree exists but may not necessarily agree with. But inside that there's a lot of tension around what is governance and what is our relationship to nature, that we need to reframe the understanding of how we talk about nature and sustainability.

And since then I'm inspired by my friend Janet Swim when she says, “I don't want a sustainable marriage. I want a thriving, passionate marriage that lets me live to my fullest potential. And why would I want sustainable nature? Why wouldn't I want a thriving nature that lets me live my life to its fullest potential?”. And so we've got to quit describing sustainability as if we can maintain what's wrong today, because that's okay. That makes us comfortable. Let's admit that we have gone through a strange relationship to nature. It is at a breaking point, like any divorce and if we really want this to work we need to think about what it is to thrive and to get there we need to heal the harms and so working with First Nations peoples or coming from Canada First Nations peoples in the United States who would say you know indigenous or the Native American population. Now I'm in Alaska working with Alaska native groups.

So when we talk about environmental identity. The Western European approach has been to think about environmental identity as an exchangeable part of who I am. It's like I have many other identities in different contexts and it's a measurable, describable thing. But when I talk to people who are from Indigenous communities, those are not separable parts. Nature and me are one. They exist and there is no way to unpack them as separate because my way is the way of speaking about nature. And so when I use in the place where I live on now on Sugpiaq lands, which is the population from the Kenai Peninsula, using the American term. So to be, you know, Chugachmiut from the Chugach forest people of the Chugach, you know, that basically says “we're the people here”. But here is who we are. And that's the part that is so complex in Western European framing to think of me as of place, of nature, of this nature, and therefore when I think of things converging, I use words that also mean rivers and estuary. There's no difference between estuary and my family or ideas that come together. Now I'm saying that really simply here, okay? So there's a whole lot of cultural baggage here that I would need to learn more about to talk in any more intelligent way about it, but I've been enjoying learning the language in part because it's helping me rethink how close colonial structures influence the way we see the nature around us.

And the colonial nature of English itself, the way we describe things, the way we describe places is patrimonial. We describe something like, mean, I'm, Panu, you're on this this call and you think about how Patriarchy includes last names. yet, and so when we describe places or real estate, we already describe ownership and we set preferences and that is not the way the language even works. So it means that we have to have a different relationship. When I describe you, if I say to someone today, you're a cow.

That's considered in English an insult because we treat language like animal names as pejorative. You're an eagle would be, you know, honorific. So dances with wolves was great, but we wouldn't say dances with cows. Dances with cows would be pejorative. But if someone is looking at that through the Alaska native lens, that is an honorific. To be the nurture, the giver of life, right?

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Fraser: So, you know, here we are, you know, in the English language, swine or pig is, you know, the most variations of use of a word to insult someone, right? There are many different ways to use it, but it's always an insult. It's never honorific to call someone a pig. Well, I'm going to say that there are some parts of the sex world where that's actually a positive term, but I'm going to say that these are generally considered negative terms. So I think we can think about this concept of thriving as an aspirational end goal, but really healing is a place where I think the conservation and environmental movement can help think about mind and mental process.

If we put ourselves in the space of needing to participate in healing and garden, we move into a space that is hopeful because it's action hope. And that's really Nathan Geiger's work. You know, working with Nathan on this on hope, this idea of action hope, something that is very targeted, specific and has an outcome that may not be in my life. Whereas W.S. Merwin has said on the last day of the world I would want to plant a tree. That there is this act of something I will never benefit from but if I do it, I create benevolence. I create an opportunity that is not about me. It's that transcendence beyond self. And so I think people can move into that space rather quickly when they feel that they are loved for what they are and what they contribute. And too often I think in the conservation movement, when we say I want to sustain something we cling to the idea that it's okay to be the way we are today, it's good enough. But I don't think our nature should be good enough.

Doherty: Yeah, this is great. This is great, John. I really appreciate it. mean, listeners, know, this is, well, this is what's nice about this podcast. We can have these deep conversations. You know, in my book, this is very validating to me because it's kind of what I tried to parse out in my book, you know, how to sequence flourishing and healing and identity and action. As I talk about in the book and with teaching, there's kind of level one and level two to all these topics. So level one is, yes, I have my environmental identity, and we have these Western assumptions about what identity is. But level two, again, is that it's different for different people and it's much more complex. And we all know that we can't solve problems at the same level we create them. The famous Einstein quote, but often we can't solve problems at the same level. We find them, we encounter them because the consciousness that finds the problem is not the consciousness that can solve the problem. So I think, Johnny, you're talking about this other, this other kind of consciousness where, you know, where we need to go and all the interconnections, the ecology of all this, you know, the feelings. I think the trauma piece people are much more open to accessing right now.

Fraser: Well, we can go back though to children's literature, children's TV and think about people who say profound things because they're trying to describe something complicated to a little kid. Mr. Rogers, an American TV icon, also a minister, once said, if it's mentionable, it's manageable.

Doherty: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Fraser: And it's really interesting because when you think about children who are living in abusive settings, we have made huge progress on ending child abuse. Now we're not there yet, but we've made huge progress because we now talk about it. It is not something to be shamed by if it has happened to you. And it's not something that we as a society will tolerate in the way that we have in past generations. We now talk about rape as a bad thing and we don't blame the victim and that is a radical change in mental concepts, in mental process.

So I think we're in a very different generation now. And that to me is a sign of serious hope. We may have problems with the fact we can talk about them and the fact that we do not blame the victims is already moving us into a better space. I work with zoos and aquariums. We know that veterinary medicine is the highest suicide rate of any profession. And because you deal with death constantly and you deal with very early onset terminal disease because pets don't last as long as humans.

And so people are confronting death in ways we don't anymore because medical science means that I don't have to have 12 children to have three that survived to adulthood. Right. We now have a very high success rate with children growing to adulthood. The normative expectation is my children will live and I can name them when they're born. You know, they're not just called baby for the first year. Like Sweden, you don't get a name until you're a year old because you're not even viable until you're a year out of uterus.

So in a way this idea that we don't experience death the same way that prior generations have. It's not as common in our world. So now pets become this focus where I blame the vet who is caring for my pet. I blame the vet for not doing everything they could. I blame the doctor when I have someone who is, basically in hospital on life support systems and I want to keep them alive. But that's not for the patient, that's for the family. And we're doing the same thing with how we think about holding onto this planet on this idea that I can keep harming it and harming it and harming it and it will still be okay because my life can't be bad. Those are some of the issues we carry. And so poor vets who are in the front line of this are introducing people to death much more frequently in their daily lives and are taking the blame and carrying the blame and having to euthanize animals and deal with different levels of caring from the different clients that they're working with who are basically the custodians of these patients that they work with every day. So it's a third party here that can't explain its pain. And certainly animals conceal pain. They don't show pain when they're living with cancer. Your cat does not look different other than that they start losing weight. They still act the same way.

Doherty: Hmm.

Fraser: that withdrawal and loss of love is tragic and the victim of that experience becomes a vet. So, you know, we work in wildlife, we have a wildlife response team at the Alaska sea life center. There's responsible or animal strandings for Alaska. We have a trained team ready for oiled wildlife response in the event of an oil spill anywhere. Our incident command. If we are asked by the U S government for any coast to manage and coordinate incident command for an oil spill. And so that means we have a team at the ready because we exist as a result of the remediation from the Exxon Valdez oil spill. And that means we carry with us every day that kind of trauma.

In a town that experienced in 1964, one of the most traumatic tsunamis that not only wiped out the town, but it also tore down the oil refineries, it took oil out to sea, it caught fire and came back in as a tsunami on fire. That was what hit the shore. So my community carries that and the people that I work with every day who were in town at the time who are now my age in their 60s and 70s can recall the day when the porch exploded in front of them, when the earth fell below them and when their town burned down and they lived with no resources.

And so now today to live in a house with no heat is like, well, we lived through a tsunami. It's that kind of world. That doesn't mean we're not drawing passion from nature either.

Doherty: This is wonderful, John. As we always say, we could go on and on, but we have to bring our talk to a close today. But we're going to put a number of links to John's work and writing in the show notes. we can follow up on that. We will maybe have you on for another time. And you can talk about retirement. We won't go there today. But listeners, think, you know, it's why we do this podcast is to have these conversations and just, you know, listening to someone like John, you know, such experience and eloquence about all of this stuff. We're not alone. People are thinking about this stuff and there are hopeful stories and hope is not weak. Hope is strong and hope is real action. There are hard truths that we need to talk about.

John and I will be presenting at the American Psychological Association this summer, talking about this work and hoping to spread this. And I think the audience will be much different than these earlier audiences that we faced years ago. And so I think, you know, people are much more amenable to this. So hopefully we can move things forward. But we're going to wrap it up. Johnny, thanks so much for coming in. I really appreciate it. And Panu thanks for adding yet another interview to your long day of work there in Helsinki.

Panu: Good to meet you, John. Thanks a lot.

Fraser: Thank you both for having me. I really appreciate it. And I still like to think that love is a commodity that is free and we should be sharing it a lot more.

Panu: Exactly.

Doherty: Well said. All right, John and Panu, listeners, everyone be well.

View Details

The Artemis II crew captured this view of Earth setting on April 6, 2026, as they flew around the Moon. Image Credit: **NASA**

S5 E17: The Surprising History of the First Earth Day (and What It Means for You Today) Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Season 5, Episode 17: The Surprising History of the First Earth Day (and What It Means for You Today)

A perfect listen for those feeling cynical about the current state of the environment but longing to rediscover hope:

Thomas and Panu unravel the powerful stories behind the birth of the first Earth Day—how a simple idea, driven by US citizens from diverse backgrounds, transcended partisanship and grew into a movement with billions of supporters worldwide. You’ll learn some of the mythological and cultural symbolism that makes Earth Day—and the recent Artemis II moon mission—resonate deeply across traditions and generations. You’ll also find practical ways to reclaim Earth Day, celebrating not just ecological awareness, but our own personal connection to nature and our collective future.

Links

• Adam Rome (2010) The Genius of Earth DayEnvironmental History (Useful primer on the first Earth Day month in the US in 1970)
• Earthset April 6, 2026
• This is the inspiring Easter message an Artemis 2 astronaut has for Earth while traveling to the moon (video). Space.com
• Anaïs Voski The ecological significance of the overview effect: Environmental attitudes and behaviours in astronauts.Journal of Environmental Psychology
• Arbor Day, celebrated worldwide, sometimes at Spring Equinox

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to climate change and happiness. This is our podcast for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change, particularly their emotions, their emotional responses. And, you know, climate change is linked to all kinds of other things in the world, including our connections with nature and other people around us and how we either suffer with them or celebrate them. So at least myself, I'm enjoying some spring weather here in Portland, Oregon, longer days. We've had our Trillium, our Trillium Festival last week. So the wildflowers were coming out. Panu, how are you doing in Helsinki? And we have Earth Day coming up and we have beautiful moon images from the Artemis, a moon flyby mission. how are you doing? And do you all have any Earth Day or Artemis moon discussions going on in Finland?

Pihkala: Thanks for asking Thomas. In Helsinki there's nice sunshine but it's relatively cold. So we had first spring flowers coming out in March but just a couple of them and we don't have many of them yet so we're still waiting for that lovely phase of spring when the flowers start to come out. we've of course been following the Artemis moon flights.

Already as a boy I was fascinated by lunar landings and all the Apollo stuff. So that's been a long time interest of mine and now my own boys, especially the older one who is now 12, roughly five years ago he was very keen about that also and was more up to date with current space exploration than I was. So certainly runs in the family and this topic also reminds me of

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Pihkala: My earlier research with the history of environmentalism and because of that I know how impactful the first lunar flights were for environmentalism, the famous photos of seeing Earth from space the first time and also how significant things happened at the early 1970s but Earth Day actually is not big in Finland. We have some other annual team days which are much more famous around environmental themes and some environmental NGOs have tried to promote Earth Day here but I've realized that it's much bigger in the states. What's your history with Earth Day Thomas yourself?

Doherty: Yeah, I think this is a great conversation for us. you know, luckily this episode will come, will come out around April 22nd, which is traditionally the Earth Day holiday. And, well, I can identify with the fascination with space program as a child growing up in the US in the 1970s. was exactly like your boys really fascinated with, images of astronauts and when I was a child, they had the moon man, human moon voyage where they had the moon buggy, the car that they drove on the moon. And of course, I was fascinated with that and drawing pictures of it in my school notebooks. So I think parents will either, you know, people of a certain age and also parents will recognize these iconic pictures of that children draw of the astronaut with the umbilical cord coming out from the space from the floating around in space. It's very kind of primal, almost archetypal image.

And so I really, like a lot of people, I'm busy and I'm jaded and cynical. And so when I, with the Artemis moon program, you know, I kind of dismissed some of it at first, but then I did really look into it, and I was quite touched by the crew on the Artemis and their much more modern progressive makeup. And been doing some research on Earth Day. So, it's a really fascinating and genuinely inspiring. Like we need, we need inspiring things. I think we should talk more about Earth Day and the history because I can share some interesting stories today and then also this the Artemis, you know, I'll turn it over to you because I think you have ideas about mythology as well here. But, know, Artemis, the early Apollo missions, you know, the Apollo missions were named after gods. was Gemini, Mercury, Apollo, and it were masculine kind of tough guy, right stuff kind of test pilot moon missions that were quite dangerous, really.

But you know, this new era we've had the space station. We have more diverse space crews the Artemis to crew, you know, as a pilot of color and a married woman scientist. You know, they, they hug each other. They cry over the over the crew leaders loss of his wife to cancer. And, you know, they have that that really genuine overview effect where they look at look at the earth and they send really heartfelt messages just like you or I would that hey, I can see that we're all together on this planet we need. We need to work together. So it's really quite beautiful. You know, it's quite human. And it reminds us that people really do care about the planet and really do care about each other.

You know, Artemis is the sister of Apollo, right? And she is the goddess of as a very independent woman. So it's a great image for today. It's an independent woman Artemis, who likes to spend her time in the woods and protect animals, right? Yeah, so what is that? What does all this conjure for you?

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for dwelling on that. In my adult years, I've had a slightly ambivalent relationship to space programs because part of that can be technological fascination and linked to utopian dreams of if we fail at sustainability and ecological protection, then at least some part of humanity could move elsewhere in the cosmos and that's not the way to go really. But there's some genuine advancements achieved through space technology that has to be admitted and some very primal sense of awe and wonder related to space travel. So that speaks to the ambiguity also.

Doherty: Yeah.

Pihkala: And this overview effects which you mentioned is a team in environmental psychology research. For example, Annais Voskhi, from Stanford, has been doing interesting studies on the environmental views of astronauts. For example, we might put a link to that in the show notes. But everything which motivates people to care for this fragile

Doherty: Yeah.

Pihkala: in black space is very important. This topic of annual theme days also in my mind evokes ancient stuff, mythologies and rituals and practices and they are of course heavily linked to the solar cycle and to the moon cycle also, the solstice, the equinoxes and

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Pihkala: That's something that I increasingly follow in my life and I know Thomas that you do too. We've sometimes discussed this over the podcast and in many religions and meaning systems. There's various kinds of thematic days over the year and some of those have been adapted to environmental themes and actually quite early on, for example, the Arbor Day.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Pihkala: tree planting day already in the 19th century. I checked Wikipedia entry and found out that in some countries it's even older. The Spanish village of Mondoñedo held the first documented arbor plantation festival in 1594, says Wikipedia. that's old and of course environmental concerns were different.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Wow.

Pihkala: For centuries we've had people who are not happy about cutting down trees for many reasons. I think we must admit that on one hand environmentalism is a relatively recent phenomenon, but on the other hand some of its substance goes way back. also, for example, to the ways that indigenous people have reacted to more industrial and often colonizing influences.

Doherty: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so like a lot of these things, there's many, many layers. And when we stop our incessant movement and just start to consider this thing a lot of unfolds. And I think that's what helped. That's what was positive for me. I had already been I had because of my recent book and because of my work with people and the sometimes the really grim tasks we have with climate work and protecting the environment in this really violent kind of corrupt time that we're living in. I really want to test and see if Earth Day can be something that we can really embrace as something positive. And I really do believe that we can. And yes, Earth Day is not new. And one of the things about Earth Day that I like is that it allows us to really partake of all of these traditions that are quite genuine and they're international and indigenous and ancient the idea of all these seasonal holidays Easter Arbor Day, you know, the equinoxes. They're very, they're very, they're very human. And, yeah, so it's interesting,

I don't think it's, it's hard for people in the modern world to imagine just how striking it was for people to see a picture of Earth from space, from the Apollo missions, because people, it truly is a novel experience in human evolution. had never seen, we'd maybe seen some artistic rendering, but no one had ever seen a literal color photo of the planet existing, and people always use some term like in the blackness of space or something like that. So this is really, it's a really aesthetic, beautiful thing when the sun is shining on the planet.

And it does it does really, it is like a mirror, you know, like it reflects that, hey, we're on a closed sphere. And thus, we all national boundaries and all the things that we think about, they don't appear. So it is a very natural cognitive, psychological insight, that overview effect.

And, you know, people really environmentalists really use that to share that. And that was a part of the energy of the first Earth Day in the 1970s in the US. And I did some research, you know, there's a lot of instructive things with the first Earth Day. So part of it was started by, you know, a senator, a senator from Wisconsin and governor who actually was inspired by the Vietnam War, organization and mobilization and teach ins and wanted to have a teach in about the environment. Gaylord Nelson of Wisconsin. So he got together with a group of young people, the oldest of the oldest in the planning group was age 28. And they came out of the civil rights movement and Chicano activists, a woman who worked for the for the for the Robert Kennedy political campaign. So it was actually quite diverse. And they and they put this out this this teach in and it took on a life of its own. And it is still the largest, the largest public event and protest in US history. was three times bigger than the recent No Kings march that we had in the US.

And there was like 35,000 speakers all around the country. And mostly grassroots organized by communities by families by moms by teachers. So really, it was really a big deal. A really, really a big deal. And it was bipartisan. The there was also a Republican from California, Pete McCloskey.

Pihkala: Hmm.

Doherty: that day, that Earth Day month, there was all kinds of things going all around the country. There was TV shows. The news covered it. Magazines. The U.S. Congress actually took a day off on Earth Day so that legislators could go to their districts and speak. Corporate leaders spoke. Doctors, architects, labor leaders, religious leaders.

So it was actually much more like we think of the current of modern environmental movement. People think about pollution. They were thinking about human rights, civil rights, environmental justice. It's quite, quite amazing, really. And this is a time when there was no internet, no Facebook, no cell phones. So this was really word of mouth. So to me, it just reminds us that as what we know, people care about the planet. People care about nature.

Most people in all countries, 80% of people in the world support climate action and support government action on this. So it is the majority of people. And if we let people really be free to talk about this, they will love doing it. Now, if we tried to this in the difference with today, is that it's all politicized and people actively have made it difficult for people to do this very human, basic thing. but that's negative bad actors that have made it difficult. is a very natural, very natural response to care about other animals and nature and to, and to, and to care about the planet. So it's just good for us to think about.

Pihkala: Mmm. Thanks for sharing all that history. I knew part of that but not all of that. It's very inspiring how large the people's movement was and all the enthusiasm. Naturally when something is done the first time or the couple of first times it's often easier to get people involved but it requires the background motivation which is in this case care for the earth that exists in so many people's hearts as you say Thomas. I totally agree that we too often forget that and something not as large but with some similarities happened at the end of 2010s when climate change awareness became more widespread. Of course we've had people who have been concerned and aware of climate change for decades. But there was something of that attitude that, OK, this is a major issue. Now let's together do something about it. that's in Finland, for example, it led to the largest climate demonstrations we've had. And then, of course, COVID-19 pandemic and other things caused much trouble for that. But the fundamental great power in people who care is of course still very much present.

Doherty: Mm hmm. Yeah. And so I think, you know, another interesting story about Earth Day. So the tea was a really kind of a like a “mod squad” kind of people that came together. So you had these representatives, these older white males. It's really it's really Panu. It's such an interesting time. both politicians, you know, from California, Wisconsin, governor and governor and representative, you know, they it was a time when environmental protection was bipartisan. It wasn't politicized. These guys were not necessarily radicals. They were actually many in many ways quite conservative. Both of them were combat veterans of World War Two, for example.

And, you know, they it was lucky, you know, they pulled together this group and they wanted to call it a teach in and it was kind of dry. And then then they got this mad Madison Avenue advertising guy, Julian Koenig, who's a famous advertising person who, you know, developed some of the iconic ads from Volkswagen cars in the US, you know, this idea of think small, you know, these really kind of funny, you know, we have that show, Mad Men about advertising in the in the 60s. Well, he was one of those Mad Men characters. But he gave them a bunch of ideas like E-Day or Ecology Day, but he said, call it Earth Day, which is a great is one of the best kind of brands in the 20th century. And it was actually Koenig's birthday, April 22nd was his birthday. And so, you know, Earth Day/birthday, that was part of his inspiration.

But, you know, I think what we can take from it is that Earth Day, the first Earth Day is commonly seen as the birth of at least the modern environmental movement in the United States. And its scope and scale, as we've talked about, is really important. But, you know, I think what we can take from it is that we can think of Earth Day as the birthday of our environmental consciousness, you

Some people have a like a real clear environmental wake up like some epiphany that changes their life. But for most of us, our environmental consciousness, our environmental identity, our values, it forms, you know, imperceptibly from our childhood, and it just becomes part of who we are, you know, and on this podcast, we get people to talk about those all that stuff. But you know, so there's no specific birthday of that, except, you know, our own literal coming into the planet as organic beings.

So I think that's where I'm that's what I'm suggesting people do with Earth Day. Parents, teachers think of Earth Day as an opportunity to celebrate the birthday of our environmental values. And I think that's a pretty useful way to start thinking about this holiday that goes forward. So it isn't necessarily tied just to the 1970s. And it's much more international like right now almost 200 countries, you know, celebrate some form of Earth Day. And it is crass and maybe commercialized a little bit. But I think there's a there's like with all these holidays, there's a really healthy, kind of genuine core, like even a spiritual, spiritual core. So that's my mission, this Earth Day, to reclaim, reclaim it and not be so cynical about it.

Pihkala: Yeah, reclaiming the Earth Day. And course, Mother Earth is a very ancient symbol and a pair of words. Some of the young environmental activists who have been interviewed for various studies actually speak very movingly about them.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Pihkala: Ecological crisis and climate crisis damaging their mother, meaning the Earth. So that's one link here and closely related to mythologies and religion also. In Finland we celebrate Mother's Day, the second weekend in May, not too far from Earth Day. And here the start of the warmer days of summer, which usually took place in early June, which is the end of the school year in Nordic countries. So that's a big celebration of the beauty of nature. And when I was working more with religious communities, I was advocating for the idea of having different kinds of thematic days over the year. So there's this traditional celebrating nature's beauty and gratitude and those kinds of things. And then there's a need also for encountering the difficult emotions and that's more new content.

Well, the Remembrance Day for a species 30th of November is one international marker day for that, but there's many other options also. And some of these thematic days come from environmental organizations, the Earth Hour in March is celebrated by many in Finland. And then there's Overshoot Day and there's good psychological discussion of those theme days which tend to be ambivalent on one hand. They remind people of the crisis and problems, but they can also become sort of gloomy reminders and temporary evocations of guilt and shame and then people move on because it sounds so depressing. So it's difficult with the difficulty of emotions and I'm not totally happy at all with the ways that Overshoot Day is dealt with in Finland, for example. I don't see much change happening around that, but anyway, the fundamental idea of having different thematics there is for encountering various aspects of the relationship between humans and the modern human world. That's very important, I think.

Doherty: Yeah. And that's one thing, you know, you learn when you do any kind of environmental or climate work. There's a bunch of different ideas about it. You cannot, you can't get everyone to agree. And so these are primal impulses to recognize. So, you know, the earth hour, overshoot day, these each, these come from some person or group that said, how, can we do? How can we celebrate this kind of thing? And so, yes, there are a myriad opportunities and then they kind of fight for attention in our in our modern kind of you know attention economy.

And I just for listeners who are cynical about Earth Day and don't necessarily buy this. I totally get it. That's many ways how I've thought about Earth Day. By the time I came of age in the, you know, the late eighties and early nineties, Earth Day was a memory. And, you know, we had it was it was not it was seen as almost a cliche. And it's easy to feel cynical. And in fact, all of the great environmental, legal, logistical victories of the first Earth Day era, like the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, all of these things are being, you know, really sabotaged right now by the fossil fuel industry that's running, running much of the US government because they bought influence in, in Washington.

So yes, all of these victories need to be protected. So yes, there's no there's no easy answer. And there's a lot of dark forces in the world. But that should not, you know, blot out the beauty of the planet and the genuine, healthy emotions that the Artemis crew is feeling looking at the Earth that your sons, you know, feel about, you know, the idea of space, space travel, these are all genuine, beautiful things. And the way to move on this is to think about it and to be conscious about it. And again, it comes back to the things we talk about all the time, which is on this podcast, which is, know, 360 emotions, we need to feel all the different, all the different emotions and, and not, not somehow disallow ourselves from feeling the positive awe, you know, that that these things bring which are, you know, really natural, healthy human emotions.

So yeah, so listeners, you can think about the birthday of your environmental identity and values as being on Earth Day. And we have many episodes talking about this idea of environmental identity and your whole your whole life story and all the different connections you have with nature. That's I think the way to celebrate Earth Day is to is to talk about our life stories and our nature connections and do an environmental timeline and think about all the key experiences that we've had. Kind of recharge our batteries. It's springy and naturally at least in the northern hemisphere it is a time to focus on so that some of this new growth.

Pihkala: Hmm. Yeah, if you invite just a couple of people who you trust and go out and gather around this, I will be very surprised if you don't come out of that feeling more energy than you did before. There's something really powerful in sharing between people. And one option, of course, is always to do some kind of even spontaneous ritual or co-created ritual which doesn't have to be grandiose, it can be just doing some symbolic activity with the elements of nature that are close by, whether those are branches and stones or something more. And that already then brings you or us closer to the very ancient practice of using ritual to keep us conscious during the annual cycle.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And you know, thinking of Artemis that that that image of Artemis is interesting, you know, this goddess, god of the moon, capable woman protector, fierce. You know, one of the stories of Artemis, which I, don't think I'd ever heard that story. So she's this, you might know this story. She saw Artemis, the myths says that Artemis is the twin sister of Apollo, they were born together from Leto. But apparently Artemis was born first. And then she that assisted in the birth of her brother and helped her mother through labor. So Artemis is a hardworking, hardworking woman who of course, immediately goes into helping helps her brother, her mother, her brother be birthed. So she's also the patron of childbirth, of midwives, among other things. just, you know, and the I was reading about the person at NASA who came up with this name Artemis, they needed a name, because it had it didn't have that the program didn't have a compelling name when they were trying to sell this program to the US government and to Congress. And so, you know, they plucked Artemis out, it was actually a name that had been used a little bit already.

But one of the goals for this particular program was that it was going to have women in it And so they picked Artemis as a god goddess, but I don't think they really even realized the depth of the symbology at the time So it's really interesting, you know, so the world is a little more mysterious. You know then then we think I think sometimes and there's all kinds of larger, you know stories and trends going on. Anyway, fascinating stuff.

Pihkala: Yeah, it truly is. When I was more involved with Christian ecological theology, it was interesting to observe that when I was baptized as a baby, the date was April 22nd. Much later on when I was ordained, the date was 5th of June, which is the Global World Environmental Day. So some nice symbolism also related to this comment about the world being a mysterious place. Glad to be talking with you, Thomas, the listeners. I hope you find good ways to celebrate it.

Doherty: Same here. Yeah, thank you, Panu and listeners. Thank you. Again, allow yourself to be a little bit cynical because there's a lot to be cynical about. We all know but also remind remember that there are beautiful things happening in the universe, in the cosmos, and among all of our fellow people. I mean 86% of people in the globe, you know, endorse climate action, environmental protections, and want their governments to work together. So let's keep that in mind. All right, Panu and listeners, everyone be well.

Pihkala: Take care.

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image credit | Anastasiya Badun

S5 E16: New Researcher Spotlight: Britta Eklöf on the Challenges of Activism and Staying Involved Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Season 5, Episode 16: New Researcher Spotlight—Britta Eklöf on the Challenges of Activism and Staying Involved

Ever wondered why some people burn out or quit activism despite caring deeply? Panu and Thomas spoke with Swedish Ph.D. researcher Britta Eklöf who explored this question. Many long-term activists face barriers like social disconnection, exhaustion, and doubts about their impact. Britta’s research shows these obstacles are interconnected, and that small changes can make a huge difference. Creating social support, clear roles, and space for emotions can boost resilience and keep activists involved. It’s not just about fighting for solutions, it’s about sustaining ourselves while doing it. Join us for the conversation.

Links

• Britta Eklöf

  • ResearchGate
  • Britta Eklöf &Christian A. Klöckner (2025). Helping young people cope with eco-anxiety: a qualitative intervention study.
  • Britta Eklöf, Sara Vestergren, Magnus Wennerhag & Christian A. Klöckner (2025). Remaining in or leaving climate activism – insights from current and former activists on sustained engagement

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: Welcome to climate change and happiness. This is our podcast, a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and other environmental issues and political issues and social issues and technological issues. And we asked the provocative question, what does it mean to be happy in the modern world? And, you know, one way that people engage in express their values about nature and the natural world and human health is through activism and advocacy. And it's interesting to think about all the different life paths that people have, and also what brings people into groups and how that works in activist circles. And we have, we're lucky to have a guest with us today who's going to help us talk about that.

Britta Eklöf Yes, thank you. My name is Britta. I'm a clinical psychologist based in Stockholm in Sweden. I recently completed my PhD in environmental psychology in Trondheim, Norway. And I was lucky to have Panu Pihkala as the opponent of my thesis two months ago.

Doherty: Yeah, and we're really excited to have Britta here and she's worked with Panu and I found her research really interesting and it helped me to rethink some of my thoughts about environmental groups. So Panu, do you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Warmly welcome Britta, also on my behalf. Glad to continue the conversations. I first became aware of your work a couple of years ago at an environmental psychology conference in Aarhus, Denmark. So naming different Nordic countries. And I know that you have been living in Sweden, so that's already for Nordic countries. And I know that you have many things in your history related to environmentalism and I'd like to ask you to start by telling something about your journey towards where you are now. How did you end up being so heavily involved with environmental topics and psychology?

Eklöf : Yeah, well. I remember, I mean, there are many starting points I could talk about, for me, watching the Al Gore's documentary, An Inconvenient Truth in my teenage years, that was a big eye-opener for me. But I didn't grow up in an environment where people talked a lot about environmental issues. So I didn't really have a language for that worry.

Yeah, for any feelings about climate, really. And my first political awakening was more focused on gender equality and global justice. So in my 20s, I was more focused on that. But the information about climate crisis and the concern was really just piling up inside of me. And I was good at compartmentalizing my climate anxiety for sure. Just silently saying to myself, just don't look that direction basically. But then Greta Thunberg appeared. And soon after I heard about the Extinction Rebellion and I saw an announcement on Facebook about introductory lecture in my city and I decided to go with my friend. And I remember clearly that I had a huge resistance before going. And I was very close to cancelling last minute. But I got on my bike and I was 10 minutes late. But that meeting was transformative. I learned a lot about the climate crisis and also about democracy, civil resistance and how social movements work.

Pihkala: Mm-hmm.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Eklöf : So that was my first entry point to activism basically. then shortly thereafter the COVID-19 pandemic hit and I isolated. I was just focused on my day-to-day job.

Pihkala: Mm-hmm.

Eklof: But I clearly got mobilized during that meeting. And during the pandemic also my work contract ended and I started applying for PhD positions in environmental psychology. And I was fortunate to be accepted to one and was also lucky to be given the opportunity to study activism.

And yeah, just to round up, at that point, activism was starting to receive more attention in social and psychological research, but it was mostly focused on why people join climate social movements, and much less on what happens after they join. So, yeah, I wanted to conduct research that would hopefully be useful for activists themselves and therefore decided to study what happens after engagement, what enables long-term engagement and also what leads some people to quit and leave their activism.

Doherty: That's great. Panu, was your take? What did you learn from the, as you were observing the dissertation process? What were the insights that you gained?

Pihkala: Yes, thanks Britta for telling about that. I totally agree that research on disengagement from environmental activism is very rare. In this podcast, we've had conversations with some scholars who have worked more on how people join environmental movements or become more environmentally aware. The work of Luis Chavala for example has been influential in that regard and listeners you can find that episode online also and having history with studies of religion and ecology I found it amusing that the word epiphany is used in some related research so people having environmental epiphanies and that the word comes heavily from religious circles having a some kind of revelation and so it links.

Eklöf : Yeah.

Doherty: Yeah, epiphany, yeah.

Pihkala: Also, know, North American roots of environmentalism and people having deeply formative experiences outdoors, but that can happen also via documentaries, for example. You mentioned Al Gore's documentary and there's several pieces of research and testimony from people all around the world that it's really been influential for many people's lives and being inspired by other people is a major thing here also.

And that leads to the topic of social dynamics more broadly. And I think that in your research there's very interesting content about the dynamics of environmental movements. And of course there's quite special things going on in the 2010s. Let me say that again. And of course there's some really special things going on in the 2020s with the COVID-19 pandemic which made on the street activities more difficult. And in relation to the culture of new environmental movements such as extinction rebellion that you studied a lot in Sweden. And it's easy to see some very good things in their culture, for example, attention to well-being and emotions and many of the topics we discuss in this podcast.

But also there is no hierarchy officially, but you know, in human groups there tends to develop hierarchy even though people say that there is none. So there's some sort of universal dynamics I see discussed in your studies but also some quite special themes from the 2020s and there's many directions to go from here but if you have some thoughts directly emerging from this, Britta, please go ahead.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Eklöf : No, I'm happy to have you lead the conversation what the next direction should be.

Pihkala: Hehehe.

Doherty: Okay, yeah. Well, let me let me jump in. I think this is this is fascinating. So you know, yes, what draws people into groups, and this role of an epiphany or a wake up call is something that I've observed many times in my life. And then many of our guests have a heavy salient experience or learning. And I know

Eklöf : No.

Doherty: Britta, appreciated your research because it reminded me of older research that I had read from the US, that people get drawn into environmental action through factors like learning something, or they already have pre-existing expertise, or they're placed in a position of leadership where then they learn something. They join a committee in their town or something like that, and it puts them in a leadership position.

What I found inspiring was that there was no one path. Sometimes someone's a pre-existing expert and gets drawn in to an issue. Sometimes someone just as a common citizen who learned something like an environmental issue in their town. Many famous environmentalists started just as regular people. And then of course there's that, there's the experience of just joining some committee or taking leadership and then suddenly you have to make decisions for your family or community which then puts you into an action position so that that I found interesting but it seems that things also are less simple now because of social media and because of technology and post covid so what you know what were you finding in your research about both what drew people in and then what what was actually causing them to disengage.

Eklöf : Yeah, well, yeah, I don't write a lot about what drew people in in my research, but for sure I discussed that in my interviews. I'm not sure if I said it, but I interviewed Swedish activists in the Extinction Rebellion Movement in Sweden, and both current activists and former activists.

Doherty: Yeah.

Eklöf : But yeah, they mentioned some kind of epiphany moment, most of them, and then also a process of anxiety and information accumulating within, and then some kind of informational tipping points almost. And then also being offered somehow a hand that drew them into the movement. So it was often through some kind of social connection. A partner or a friend that said, let's go to this meeting. And it was almost the same for me when I went to that lecture with them. But then, yeah. What's happened then when they joined? Many things, of course.

Doherty: Mm-hmm, Yeah.

Eklof: So in my research, I write about facilitators, things, factors that help them stay engaged. And I also write about barriers that were perceived by both current activists and dropouts. But for the dropouts, it was the lack of facilitating factors that could buffer these barriers or just facing too many barriers that made them eventually quit. And yeah, I can mention them briefly now, and then we can jump into one or many later. Yeah. Let's start with the barriers, actually. They are all interconnected, the facilitators and the barriers. But the first barrier mentioned was lack of social connections in the group or not finding one's role in the group. I'm going to keep it short now and just go through them.

So the first one was lack of social connections in the group. The second one, doubting that the strategy and the actions would have an impact. Third, conflicts or disagreements with the group, The fourth, exhaustion. And it could be related to both the activism itself, but also stress in private life. And the fifth one, difficulties with this type of non-hierarchical organization that Extinction Rebellion is, such as unclear leadership roles or decision-making procedures that are perceived unfair and so on. Yeah, guess had I done the interviews today, I think some activists and dropouts would probably also talk about police repression.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Eklöf : That was not a big theme in my interviews conducted back in 2020. But yeah, it has increased since then.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for telling a summary of those topics and recent episode of our podcast deals with politics of repression against environmental activists. So listeners, you can find more discussion of that. And actually in Trondheim, when we met with Britta two months ago, we also discussed that outside the main content of the dissertation. The second opponent was Marlis Wullenkord, who has done climate anxiety research in Germany and many kinds of environmental psychology research. So I really enjoyed the good conversations we had and I'm not going to go much into academic culture now, but you know, a dissertation event is the sort of culmination test of your PhD years and there's different cultures in relation to that. A sort of old power hierarchy culture would be that the opponents try to put the defendant into a small position. But we've been wanting to practice what might be called a more feminist approach to science and communication and academic relations where it's more discussion and learning together. And at best, and including my experience in Trondheim, is that everybody can learn if there's that kind of attitude. But also having that history means that I've been reading Britta's work in detail. So I know a lot about that content. those five barriers that you mentioned. Thomas, what's on your mind when listening to those?

Doherty: Yeah, it's interesting. I've been trying to compare the more modern extinction rebellion experience with what I know of older environmental. mean, environmental groups have been around for generations now. And it does seem to me all of these barriers existed, say, 20 years ago in organizations, know, people being different unless it was a local group where people came from the same place, but any kind of national level group, people would be different. They would disagree. There's always doubts about impact and, but I think everything has been amplified. I mean, as we talk, it's really interesting because when I look at the research from the nineties, and early two thousands, people didn't talk about anxiety because eco anxiety was not surfaced as an issue.

Eklöf : Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Doherty: And so environmentalists didn't talk about feeling anxious. In fact, I think there was more of a sense that they were healthy and they were protecting the earth. So was actually the opposite of anxiety, but we live in different times. So I think all of these factors are amplified by technology, the weight of information, the instantaneous communication.

Eklöf : Right, yeah.

Doherty: people on their screens, social media, which exacerbates all kinds of interpersonal insecurities and relationship issues. So it does seem like a really high stakes. And of course, the stakes of climate change are much higher now. And people have experienced disasters. They have experienced floods, smoke. So we, know, it's like a kettle on a stove that's been turned up to a boil. The same ingredients, I think, where they have been there forever.

Eklöf : Yes. Yes.

Doherty: environmental groups have always been plagued by having charismatic founders that then are difficult to work with and things like that. That's forever. But now, now it's all amplified. what did you find that? How are people addressing this kind of new metaphor, the boiling pot of environmental work? Yeah.

Eklöf : Yeah, in different ways. In my analysis, I write about how people are driven by different motivations. And for people that are engaging because they want to have an impact and they want to have an impact fast, they have these instrumental motivations. For them, that is their main way to deal with it. And if they feel then that the strategy is inefficient, ineffective, yeah, thank you, that was a reason for them to disengage. And then we have another category that appreciated the social context, they found new friends maybe in the movement, and also appreciated that new type of social context that allowed them to share their climate's and validated their concerns and also having those emotions mirrored by others. For them, just being in that social context was another way to, or how to say, another coping aspect.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Eklöf : Did I answer your question?

Doherty: Yeah, yeah, I think so. And I think it's great. mean, listeners, you can think about this yourself, but I know I, I like to, I see myself as a pragmatist. So if I'm working in a group, I want to make sure that we know what we're doing and, and, you know, we're going to have a, we're going to have an impact.

Or, you know, I flipped to the validation side, you know, where I said, impacts difficult, we might not have an impact at all. It might fail, but that's okay because we must try our values and we must do what we can do. this totally makes sense. So essentially, I think people become more savvy about these internal factors. I'm thinking of like meaning focus coping versus action and emotional focus coping and all these kinds of things. So it seems like there's a there's some sort of effective groups are able to recognize the needs of the individual person, their self, their, their need for support, their need for meaning. Yeah.

Eklöf : Right. I write about also how I write about that in terms of recommendations, a recommendation for organizer that it's good to be aware that people are driven by different motivation and also need different coping aspects. Because in my interviews, I find that it could be a source of conflict actually, when some people were more focused on, they wanted to spend time planning action and discussing strategy. And then we had another click of people in the group wanted to discuss their emotions and using the time and space for therapeutic reasons kind of. And that could be a source of conflict. The ideal case, I guess, would be that the group can acknowledge all these different needs and wishes. And yeah, acknowledge them, talk about them, and solve them collectively maybe.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Pihkala: Yeah, there may be changes in the organization or network. And while in Norway, I was talking with some people who are active in Extinction Rebellion Norway, and I heard that they had actually appointed facilitators. So they had switched to light hierarchy instead of no hierarchy at all. And then some people take more power and others are annoyed and those kinds of dynamics.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Pihkala: And you can, if people listen to me, you can hear that I'm fond of commonly set rules around hierarchy and power. I don't believe that in the long run it functions without having that sometimes difficult discussion that who is using power and just pretending that everybody has equal power. I don't think that works and that has some links to some earlier research and philosophy also.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Eklöf : Yeah, a note on that, maybe a little bit in defense of Extinction Rebellion. But I had one participant, I'm quoting her now saying that Extinction Rebellion was not built as a organization that was going to last for many years. It was built with the goal of mass mobilization and just spreading as fast as possible. And then I think it is an effective way to

have many action and many things happen quickly to just basically allow people to do whatever they want. They don't need a particular meeting and a voting system in place first. So I think it's effective in that sense. But in the long run, problems might arise with that kind of organization flat non-hierarchical structure.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for bringing that up. totally agree. And after all, the amount of action and attention that Extinction Rebellion was able to generate in just a couple of years was unprecedented in environmental activism. And then who knows what might have happened with the new wave of climate activism without the COVID-19 pandemic. So that was a big blow to many things. Then we could go also into activist life cycles. Often there's different age groups where people more probably turn to activism, like when you're a student or then when you're nearing the end of your working life and you have more social freedom and that sort of thing. And also during the COVID-19 years, many young activists of the new climate movement, you know, decided that they have to get places where they can study and try to get some jobs and some income in societies where there is less jobs for young people, partly because of technologization and AI lately and so on. So many things are intertwined here. But moving towards the end of our time, time flies so fast when having these conversations. It would be really nice to hear more about yourrecommendations based on your research about how to deal with these barriers constructively. You said already something about it but I noticed more.

Eklöf : Yeah, thank you for asking. So we spoke briefly about the role of the social context and that can be supported by giving newcomers or long-term activists opportunities to engage with different levels of intensity and workload basically, so that they can switch from roles depending on where they are in life. Also, roles, like knowing one's place in the group is very psychologically soothing. And also strengthening social bonds through opportunities to socialize between actions or strategy work, yeah, just relaxed opportunities to socialize basically. Also, you know, having procedures for conflict resolution in place, and as we were briefly talking about now, also frameworks for decision making, some kind of structure for that.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Eklöf : So that's the social recommendations. Also, I mentioned the barrier being exhausted from overwork. So that can be prevented through fostering open conversations about it. And encourage people to share when they feel overworked and encourage people to ask for help if they are overworked. So normalize that kind of.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Eklöf : And then I also mentioned efficacy doubts as a barrier. And that can be. How do you say? You can deal with that through also offering discussions about different ways to think about strategy and impact. We didn't have time to talk about that, but there are many ways to think about impact, no long-term impact, short-term, different outputs to focus on, et cetera. So just to inform activists about that basically.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah, this is great. I think, you know, what we can do today is is for listeners just raise these things because these are all things you're going to experience in a group. You know, are we really making a difference? What should we be doing? A word that you didn't use, which I've what I've heard, which I've heard from, especially in young environmentalists here, like in the sunrise movement is dealing with interpersonal drama, they would say, which is basically kind of individual egos, individual identity processes, people being sensitive, people being young, different levels of experience, life experience in a group, and also understanding of the issues. So it is challenging because more people are doing environmental work now than ever before, and more different kinds of people.

Eklöf : Mmm.

Doherty: the old days where there was an environmental scientist who started a group and everybody just listened to the him or her and followed orders and was sort of like in a in a military band that doesn't exist anymore. So we need much more like I think the takeaway is more flexibility and recognizing the human factors I think is a good way to think about it.

Yeah. And we're going to have links to Britta's papers and things in our show notes. And this is really good for activists and colleagues like in Climate Emergency Fund and people that we know here in the US that are doing, you know, good work on social and social action. So Britta, where's the rest of your evening going here now that we're wrapping up?

Eklöf : I'm actually gonna go downtown and have a glass of champagne actually because we're celebrating a friend who signed a book contract. Yes, and I guess also celebrating my thesis defense.

Doherty: Great, yeah. You didn't mention that, but celebrating victories, small victories is very important to coping as well. So those moments are key. Yeah, so congratulations. Yeah, to you and your friend. Yeah.

Eklöf : Right, yes. Yeah, yes. What are you going to do?

Doherty: I'm just starting my day. I'm redoing my website and I am working on talking to clients and talking to a colleague in Italy about mental health diagnosis and climate change.

Pihkala: Yeah, and it's 7 p.m. in Finland now. I'm gonna take a short walk before having a sauna. listeners of this podcast over the years, because we usually record this time Thomas' morning and my evening. That sounds like a regular thing, which is very true for Finland. Thanks Britta for joining us. It's been delightful to talk about these things.

Eklöf : Good stuff. Thanks. Thank you for having me. I enjoyed the conversation. And nice meeting you both.

Doherty: Yes, thanks and listeners you can learn more or find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com and take care of yourself as you're doing all of your good work in the world and everyone be well.

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image credit | Jeremy Bishop

S5 E15: A Journey around the Planet (Without Flying) With Thor Pedersen Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Season 5, Episode 15: A Journey around the Planet (Without Flying) With Thor Pedersen

Thor Pedersen embarked on a decade-long journey, traveling to every country without flying, redefining the limits of Earth-based travel. Join us to learn about the logistics and lessons of Thor’s global trek, revealing how resilience and cultural understanding transformed his mission into a powerful message about climate change and hope.

Links

• Thor Pedersen

  • (2026) The Impossible Journey
  • I visited every country in the world without flying. Here are eight things I learned.The Guardian
  • Man who visited every country without flying has finally returned home (video)

  • Other topics discussed in the episode

  • Paul Salopek, walking around the world for National Geographic, the “Out of Eden walk.”

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And this is our podcast, Climate Change and Happiness, the show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about, well, climate change and happiness and our relationship with nature and making a space to talk about some of these global issues and how they manifest in our life and in our values. And Panu and I have been talking for a few years. He's in Helsinki and I'm in Portland, Oregon. And we've been thinking about travel in the world and all the things that we can learn by traveling and meeting different people and we are lucky to have a special guest today. It's going to help us in our conversation.

Thor Pedersen: Yeah, hi, I'm happy to be on board. My name is Thor Pedersen. I'm from Denmark and I'm best known for reaching every country in the world without flying.

Doherty: Yes, and that's exactly true. And I got a chance to meet Thor just recently at a literary festival and got a chance to meet him and see him speak and read his book. I, like many people, learned about his journey. And he is a very unique person. He's traveled all around the world, to every country in the world, without using a plane, which required, I think, I believe, 10 years.

Many, many interesting adventures and logistical challenges to make this happen. And I'm just fascinated by the whole story. I think people who are open to experience and travel are always fascinated by stories like this. It is truly a modern day journey. I thought it would really be great to bring Thor on our podcast and share this with you, the listener, just to take this conversation in a unique direction with someone who's recently had this global experience and see what insights we can have. I know I've got questions and things I'm curious about, but Panu, do you want to get us started?

Panu Pihkala: Warmly welcome Thor also on my behalf and lovely to have Nordic connections online in this podcast also. Travel is something that a lot of people really enjoy. Of course there's in equality globally about who gets to travel and so on, but there's also very different means of travel. In our climate crisis shaped world, many people are having thoughts and feelings about travel, lots of desires to see other countries and meet people, and there's a of good happening out of that, and then people are wondering about the carbon footprint and sometimes about security issues and so on.

In this podcast we've been touching on these themes earlier, but it's been a long time since we did any focused conversation on travel and that's going to be fascinating. What would you like to share from your journey towards the time and place where you are now? How did you become a human person who has done all this and now is trying to balance between various areas of life as many are doing?

Pedersen: Thank you for the welcome and that is an interesting question. So that comprises a connection between who I was in 2013 and who I might have been when I returned in 23 and who I am today. Back in 2013, I was very ambitious and my project was mostly centered around myself, my ambition and doing something which had never been done before. And then from early on, mean, like the first weeks or the first very few months of traveling, it took a turn and it became more about humanitarian work carried out by the Red Cross. I was traveling as a Goodwill Ambassador of the Danish Red Cross and meeting with the Red Cross.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Pedersen: In every country I was going through. And also the meetings that I had with people in every country I went through. And the culture, the food, the history, the scenery, the infrastructure, mean everything that I moved through. I was looking for something positive to share from every country in the world. And that came from my eyes being opened up very early in the project where I was surprised about the level of development or the local beauty. And again, I mean, some of these cities, the architecture and the way people were dressing. And, you know, these were countries that I felt maybe less about. So I was going through some countries where, you know, to the best of my knowledge, they were lagging behind five, 10, 15 years behind in development and then arriving and seeing that's absolutely not the case.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Pedersen: In some cases they were way ahead and also that there are other ways to measure these things. So, you know, I had been to more than 50 countries at the age of 34. was 34 when I left Denmark and I thought I knew quite a lot about the world. then because I was surprised about these countries and how much positive there was to share about them, I came to the conclusion that maybe a lot of other people also didn't know these things. And then I reasoned that media, mainstream media at least, is often quite negative. By default it focuses on the worst of the worst in our world. And everything I was seeing, not everything, but most of what I was seeing was contradicting the news stream. So I felt that I had a role to play as a voice, as someone who would be sharing the positive in every country and promoting every country around the world as if it was the best country in the world. So that was sort of the evolution of my project and then as it grew and got longer and longer and more and more demanding, I also took upon myself a role as an inspiration and motivation to people who want to achieve things in life.

Doherty: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Pedersen: and when asked, talked to people and said, you know, look at what I have accomplished. And I've basically been out here on my own. So you have a team and if you can work together with this team, then just imagine the synergy and how much you guys would be able to accomplish. And I think there's a strong message in that. I also think that there's a strong message in that if you believe in something, if you have a goal and you truly believe in it and it's something you really want, then what are the main obstacles between reaching that goal and failing is your willpower. You will have bad days, it will be difficult. Not everything's going to be rosy red and fun and perfect. And you have to push through those hard patches. And when a door is locked, then you look for another door. And when someone says no, then you smile and say thank you. And you look for someone else to help you. But you find a way forward.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Pedersen: Yeah, so in 2013 nobody knew who I was and nobody would do an interview with me and I didn't have much to tell or say I came back in 2023 and yeah, I had a big online following and wrote a book and we finished a documentary film and interviews and attention and speaking engagements. So my life has been turned upside down. Yeah, I mean, we can, I can keep talking about this, but yeah.

Doherty: Yeah. No, this is great. Yeah, yeah. I like your book and I highly recommend Thor's book because it's also very personal and you talk about your background and your childhood. And you know, like many people, you were lucky enough to have connections with nature and canoeing and being. Early on, I think you found solace and support in the natural world, even alone as a child or when you needed your own space. And so I think you were comfortable on the land. And then, of course, the whole kind of Viking Nordic Scandinavian history of travel, I think that filled your sales, some of those either stereotypes or truth. But yeah, seems to me that, well, we can go in a lot of directions with our podcast

Pedersen: Yeah.

Doherty: It seems like you started off as an engineer, like working on logistics, because it was a big logistical problem. And then you came back more, I don't know, as a humanitarian or as a philosopher or something like that. So there was a huge, huge, huge personality change, I think, you know, or a growing or maturing into yourself. So jump in.

Pedersen: So my travel hero is Ibn Battuta, who was born out of Morocco some many, many hundred years ago. And there is a quote from him, which is that “travel makes you speechless and then turns you into a storyteller”.

Doherty: I love it. Yeah. Yeah.

Pihkala: That's great.

Pedersen: Yeah.

Doherty: Yeah, what are you thinking about Panu in terms of, you you're you talk to people all around the world and you're in, you know, plumbing the depths of different emotions and experiences. What's coming up in your mind?

Pihkala: Yeah, very fascinating to hear your story Thor. Thanks for sharing some elements of that and there would be a lot of stories to tell. I instantly hear that and thinking of our audience of people who are interested about various aspects of how to try to live well amidst contemporary times and you have already touched on quite important teams like willpower and courage but also the ability to ask for help when that's needed. So it seems that it wasn't just an individual hero's journey that you did but there was quite a lot of things going on between you and other people.

Pedersen: Absolutely. I mean, this is something I often stress that not just me, but anyone as far as I'm concerned who reaches every country in the world, if they think they did that on their own, then they're delusional. For me, I know that this was a collaboration with people across every continent and pretty much every country. was an enormous amount of support, sometimes really small support but meaningful and sometimes in the biggest ways imaginable but you know it's not a single person's achievement, this is a multiplayer game.

Pihkala: If you take a look back at these long journeys, is there some experience and memory of somebody really helping you out perhaps in a way that you didn't expect which comes to your mind?

Pedersen: There is, it's a bit of a story. I'll try to compress it as much as possible, but in West Africa, I had been in West Africa for quite some time and I felt that, okay, now I was starting to understand the culture and how things were and handshakes and this and that. And one of the things I clearly understood was that when you get inside a vehicle, then everybody in that vehicle is a team and that whatever that vehicle faces we face it together. So if you're in a bus, a mini bus in a Bush taxi, then you're a team. This was one thing and you do not desert your team. You know, this is one thing.

The other thing that I thought I understood was that quite often when someone pulls on a uniform, then they become unbelievably corrupted and and they might misuse their power. So the story goes that I've been through hundreds and hundreds of checkpoints on small dirt roads in rural areas and whatnot. And I'm in a Toyota Corolla and there three women in the back and I'm next to the driver up in front and we come to a checkpoint.

There is a very corrupted guy there who's blocking my passage and all my paperwork is in order, everything checks out. But it doesn't matter. The game is that they will keep asking you questions until you say you don't know or if you're confused and they will try to press some money out of you.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Pedersen: So I was in this situation and usually I understand it's a game and I do not lose my temper, but this was just it had been building up for many months. And in this situation, I absolutely lost it. And I, you know, I started shouting at this guy and going like, you know, if your country wasn't as corrupt as it was, then maybe it would be a much better country and the roads would be better and education would be better and health care would be better and blah, blah, blah. You know, you're all blocking the way for each other, this kind of stuff.

And at the point when I lose it he starts smiling because he knows now he has won. You know now he has definitely won the situation and while I'm there very very angry one of the women she comes over to me one of the women from the Toyota Comes over and pulls me aside and says just give him $20. It's all he wants then we can all continue and I explode and go like, know corruption is the cancer of a country blah blah blah.

Then the driver comes over and the driver says to me, you know, we don't have time for this. You have to point out what luggage is yours. We'll take it off and then you can stay here and we will continue without you, but we don't have time to wait. And I explode even more. I start shouting “you people have nothing but time. Everybody has time, know. Everything takes 10 times as much time as it's supposed to. You don't need to rush. You don't have deadlines. What are you talking about?” So I'm really, really angry and upset.

And then somewhere in between all of this, the police is also called over and I'm going to get arrested for not having proper paperwork or something like this. So it's a stressful situation. I'm very angry. I have the driver there. I have this woman here. I'm feeling like, where's the team? You know, we're supposed to be a team. What happened to my team? And they're all going against me. And then suddenly this corrupted guy at the checkpoint, he goes, okay, everything is fine. You can continue. And I look at him in surprise. Like he just changed his mind. I go, yeah, I know it's okay.

Doherty: Mmm.

Pedersen: it's okay yes of course I can go and I get back in the vehicle and we start driving and the women are in the back and the driver is next to me and the driver he's smiling and he's holding on to the steering wheel with two hands and he's just kind of having a good time smiling and I'm really upset you know, what happened to the team? so I look at the driver and I say so that was really nice and he's just smiling and driving and I say so you were going to leave me and he's smiling and driving he's not saying anything and then one of the women in the back said, you know, he helped you. And I turn around and I look at her and go, “what do you mean? He was going to leave me.” And the woman said he was never ever going to leave you. What he did was he was pretending. So he put pressure on the checkpoint. And if the checkpoint believed that you were going to be left behind, then the checkpoint would also be under the assumption that they would have to feed you and give you a place to stay. And then I would become the checkpoints problem. So by doing that, he was playing the game. Actually, he was helping.

So in one second, my mind goes from, this guy I thought who was working against me was really working for me, this guy that I was giving a hard time, he was my friend. And you know, this was a very surprising development for me and I learned something about the culture that I didn't understand before. And I grew, I think, in that moment.

Pihkala: Mmm, thanks for sharing.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Pedersen: My pleasure.

Doherty: Yeah, that's, that's wonderful. mean, yeah, I think all of us, have our preconceptions and then I think there's entitlement as a white skinned male. And then there's global culture. I think one thing you confronted and that we've talked about it in our in our podcast is just, you know, the world is a good place and people are good, but there is injustice and there is a history of injustice and colonialism. And so we never know. We never know what stories people hold and what past grievances they have and where we were clueless about this.

And we still have to go and try to be nice and be accepted for who we are as our own self, our own person. I mean we didn't create these past problems yet we have to speak for them. So it seemed like that was also a theme through you were a unwitting white representative of history or something like that as you went through all these countries. And so that seemed like another burden of the trip that you became more conscious of as you went.

Pedersen: Well, yes, I've had several of such encounters. But I've also had a few episodes where I kind of saw something in a different light. One time in Cameroon, I was couch surfing with this really nice guy and his family, wife and children. They had a small house down a slope. There was a busy road and then there was a dirt road heading down to their house and lots of houses following this dirt road.

And this dirt road was terrible, you would barely be able to drive a normal vehicle down it. The water had been ripping this apart for years probably. It was difficult to walk on. It's a really bad road. And one day I was having lunch with him, eating some fish and we're talking and I said, you know, you guys live here. There must be 20 houses around this road. Why don't you just knock on every door and then you agree that next Thursday everyone got to come out with shovels and then you're going to fix your road and your life will be better.

You know, this is the way I saw it. And then he said to me, well, we could do that. But then maybe after one or two hours of working on the road, a government representative would show up and say, what's going on here? Has this been commissioned by government? And then there's a no, no, we're just doing this for ourselves and go like, yes, but this is a government road.

Stop this and who's in charge and you have to come for a meeting with government. And then, you know, whoever organized would then have to head over and sit in a government office and they would ask questions and they would say, so are you competition to the sitting government? And then you might reply, no, I'm not competition. I'm just fixing my own road. The road has been like this for 10 years. Nothing is happening. And then the government would reply, it's in planning.

So don't go back out and don't do anything to that road. It's in planning. And that might mean nothing's going to happen with that road ever, but you just don't even have the chance to fix your own situation.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's interesting. That reminds me of this whole climate hostage phenomenon that I talk about in my book, this idea that people are kind of trapped. Sometimes we're trapped in a system where we can't control the larger world, and we have to learn to make peace with it and find our meaning and find our agency within that. So that's really interesting. Yeah.

Pihkala: Hmm.

Pedersen: I guess, I mean, you know everyone can do something. I mean at the point when you sit down and say there's nothing I can do. It's game over. Everyone can do something and you can do you can find you know concrete action that you can do. You can also just be a voice and you know something I found was that when I left home in 2013 I had a few small interviews here and there and nobody ever asked me if the non-flying had anything to do with the environment. Nobody asked me that question. Nobody cared. then around 2016 or 2017 Greta Thunberg she entered the stage and she did that in such a big way that it changed the way that we speak and the way that we think and the way that so many people see the world and beyond that point I started to get the first questions about so the non-flying is it because is it because of the environment you're not flying and I would explain so and I'll tell you what so no questions back in 2013, 14, 15 now we're in 2026

When I speak to a journalist, they don't even ask. They assume that the reason I wasn't flying was because of the environment. Because that is the world we live in today. They assume if you're not flying for all of that, it's because of the environment. They're not even asking questions.

Doherty: I'm so glad you shared that that's really that's really helpful. And that does indicate how the world has changed. Panu and I have tracked this world. Panu, you were going to say something earlier. Panu, do you have a thought on your mind?

Pihkala: Yeah, that's a great story of how change happens and a lot of things are going on in the world and we know there's lots of trouble but it's also very healthy to try to keep an eye on the things that have gone into a better direction. is that also and the car story reminds me of discussions we had for example with Bob Dobson on this podcast, Bobby is a psychologists and sustainability expert who is advocating for community resilience, or what he calls transformational resilience, or not just returning to the previous state of things, but growing via adversity. As well Matteo Innocenti from Italy, a climate psychologist we also interviewed, is that in when climate disasters and changes start to grow, we will need much more of that “We are in the same team just because we are in the same place” kind of attitude which you described from your time in Africa. But for the listeners I think it would be very interesting to hear that some of your observations about climate change during your travels. Is there something that comes to your mind first about that?

Pedersen: Hmm. Yeah, thank you for asking. This is truly something I never get to speak about. No one ever asks me about this. I have this unique experience of I cannot remember going through a country where people did not tell me that things were out of the ordinary. They said we had so much rain this year. my grandfather is the last one who can remember that we had this much rain where we are. Or they had no rain at all and they say we can't believe it there hasn't been a drop of rain this year or it's the summer came earlier or winter came earlier or the storms were intensified or it's just everywhere I went people were talking about these extreme observations say you know there is no denying the change it is definitely changing in our lifetime and we can see and measure the change. So that was a big eye-opener for me in terms of what we're doing to our planet and what we probably need to do if we want to keep a place on this planet.

Pihkala: Thanks for sharing, very important to hear. Another big time traveler, Paul Salopek has been writing this story for National Geographic “Out of Eden walk” where he started from Africa and has been going through Asia. That was one of his experiences also that everywhere people are actually talking about the changes that climate change is bringing. I think that's something we miss in the Western industrialized world sometimes. That's how much ordinary people all around the world really observe how change is happening. Of course, then resilience, which is a word which was mentioned, highly important. What comes to your mind? Thought about people's resilience and their skillfulness in responding to the changes that have come as a result of climate change

Pedersen: Well, I believe that people are resilient everywhere. It's just not everyone who has been tested yet. Within the Red Cross, Red Cross delegate would tell me, the people here are so resilient. They're amazingly resilient. But I would then hear this again and again and again and again. And, you know, in my experience, people are resilient. People are good at adapting and people are good at digging in if that's what they want to do. So yeah, I think we don't have to worry about resilience, but we're fragile. As humans, we're incredibly fragile. If the storms get much worse and much more frequent, what are we going to do if the temperature jumps to up or down to a degree where our fragile bodies cannot handle it.

I mean, you have entire cities, entire societies that are built up around air conditioning. You go from an air conditioned vehicle into an air conditioned office, back to an air conditioned vehicle, into an air conditioned restaurant, back into an air conditioned vehicle, into an air conditioned home, a gym, a mall, a dairy farm even, which is air conditioned. So what happens when you cut the air condition? And right now with the recent conflict in the Middle East. mean, normally I don't like saying Middle East in that way, but it is truly across most of the Middle East right now. They are worried that they will start targeting these energy plants or the energy supply. If they cut the air conditioning, then some of these cities, they will be in big, big trouble and these people will be in big, big trouble.

That's how fragile we are. You know, at the other end of it, you could be working in the Arctic or Antarctic and someone comes and takes your jacket away. You know, that's basically what would happen in the opposite. So we are super fragile. There's this standup comedian who made a joke about humans inventing helmets. Humans are stupid enough to know that they're doing things that are breaking their heads, but they're so dumb that they invent helmets so they can continue doing the things that are breaking their heads. And that's humans, right? So we find a way to live where we're not supposed to live or we cannot live. But what happens when conditions change so much that we cannot live anywhere?

Doherty: huh. Yeah.

Pihkala: Hmm.

Pedersen: You know, it's a real risk. All the cities, all the societies, everywhere we have masses, great masses of people. This is near rivers and near coastlines. If the water comes up, I mean, there's only so much you can do. You have to move hundreds of millions of people. Where are they going to go? Kind of live on people's fields? You know, we have to manage this. And if we're capable, then it's definitely on us to do something about it.

Pihkala: Mmm.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting when they research helmets, parents, you know, let their kids do more risky things when they have helmets. So helmet helmets allow us. Yeah, they we are technology does allow us to take these risks. But yes, instead of just stopping the risk, just keep doing it with the right equipment.

Doherty: Well, we've got to we've got to tie up our conversation, although we always say we could go longer. And what often happens is what just happened in our talk. think listeners, you know, we want to come back to the very beginning of what Thor was talking about the idea of resilience and see this idea of toughness and having a goal and then realizing we're never alone because that's what happens.

We learn about the world, we realize that we're fragile, we realize there are all these problems, and then we have to come back to the beginning of our journey and, and pull together our strengths and our team, and our values and our principles.

And I know when people say, “Thomas, don't you get upset, don't you get disillusioned?” and I say I do but everywhere I've ever gone everywhere in the world people care about these issues. And like you say, Thor, they were experiencing them, it's so obvious we are all feeling similarly.

Pedersen: Don't take my word for it. Paul Salopek, said it as well.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so I'm really honored, Thor, to have you here. I mean, it's rare to meet a true adventurer, you know, in that classic sense. So I really it does elevate our conversation. So I'm really, really proud of you and look forward to tracking your adventures going forward. It's a hero's journey where you have to share your message that you gathered over those 10 years. So anyway, let's wrap it up. We're going to put some links to Thor's book and media and I haven't seen your documentary so we'll need to figure out a way to see that and spread this word around. Stay in touch. I know for both of you its late afternoon so I'll leave you to your families and I'll begin my day here. Panu and Thor, thank you very much

Pedersen: Thank you. Absolutely. Yeah, thank you to both of you. Thank you, Panu. Thank you, Thomas. It's been a real pleasure.

Pihkala: Wonderful to talk with you too.

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From Mor Keshet

S5 E 14: Art Therapy for Climate Resilience with Mor Keshet Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Season 5, Episode 14: Art Therapy for Climate Resilience with Mor Keshet

Thomas and Panu explored the intersection of art, creativity, and environmental psychology with art therapist Mor Keshet. Join us to discover practical art activities like mandalas and collage that help process climate emotions and foster identity and resilience.

Links

• Mor Keshet
• Writings
• Integrative Eco Art Therapy: Addressing Humanity's Fractured Attachment to Nature, Ecopsychology (contact author for copy)
• Post Traumatic Ecology: Learning Emotional Resilience from the Living World, Biomimicry Institute

• When Gratitude Becomes Embodied: The Mental Health Benefits of Nature-Based Awareness, Psychology Today

• Climate Psychology Alliance - North America

• Ariella Cook-Shonkoff (2025) How Interacting With Mandalas Can Heal Us
• Previous Podcast Episode: Season 2, Episode 12: Art Gives Ecological Grief a Body, with Daniela Molnar

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I'm Thomas Doherty

Panu Pihkala: I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to climate change and happiness. is our podcast. This is a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and other environmental issues. And this is a place where we open up to emotions. And today we're thinking about art and creativity and our connections with nature and expression of our feelings and also art as a therapeutic tool. And to help us in this conversation, we are really excited to have a special guest.

Keshet: Hi, I'm Mor Keshet.

Doherty: Mor is a colleague of mine and Panu's from New York City, Long Island. She will tell more about herself in a minute, but she's a well-established art therapist. And we're going to get into this. So this is a creative episode for you all listeners. So you might even want to have something if you're available, something to write with or sketch with as we're as we're talking, because you might have some ideas. Panu, do you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Welcome Mor also on my behalf. Lovely to meet you. I've been following your work online and noticed that you've been using the climate emotions wheel and that easily lends itself to various creative practices and when facilitating workshops, which is what I sometimes do, I love to explore various creative and somatic methods and so on. So I'm very interested in things that you have been doing, but we often start by asking our guests something about the journey towards the time and place and style where they are now. So would you like to share something about how did you end up becoming so engaged with environmental and climate matters and arts?

Keshet: Yeah, well first of all, thank you both so much for having me here. I'm a big admirer and I appreciate, earnestly appreciate everything that you've both contributed to this field and it's wonderful to be here with you in dialogue. So I've been an art therapist since 2005. I went to the School of Visual Arts for my master's in art therapy and I've always been working with people who've experienced overwhelming life events, right? So homeless adults who were mentally ill and chemically addicted, women who experienced sex trafficking, families who were facing separation from one another.

And this really kind of came from a backdrop of being a granddaughter of an Auschwitz survivor. And I've had this lifelong interest, very, very deep interest in what kind of separates people who simply survive and people who really thrive and feel a tremendous sense of belonging and placement in the world. So this lifelong pursuit. for many years, I was kind of developing this integrative creative arts therapy approach and when I came into private practice work, while I myself have a very deep connection to the natural world, I didn't really think about the overlap and how this lends itself, which is a massive understatement, to clinical practice.

When COVID came around and we were all kind of put in this space, working with people who were already experiencing, were prone to kind of acute levels of dissociation, I was kind of confounded by how even more detached, listless, unmoored, the people that I was working with had become when all of these identity-feeding silos of work and school were out of the picture. So on a whim I started suggesting to clients, this was in the spring, right? I started suggesting to clients that we meet in the park. And I didn't change anything. I brought the same materials. I replaced the big butcher block table with a couple of beach chairs and materials that were easy to take around. But I saw almost an immediate and palpable shift. Where all of a sudden, these kind of very narrow narratives of symptomology and trauma stories and kind of repeated patterns were opening. These channels were just opening and resourcing was expanding, sense of place, sense of presence was just becoming so much more apparent and I thought this is fascinating.

And I started reading, eco-psychology, eco-therapy, and more specifically, eco-art therapy, which is still very much a burgeoning field. This is all emergent, right? And I started thinking about how I can be far more intentional in integrating some of what I was learning into my practice. And I also just said, I'm going to start offering groups. Everyone is so freaked out and isolated and alienated during this COVID time, let's see if I can help in some way beyond my therapy practice. And the groups just really started to take off and I joined the Climate Psychology Alliance of North America where I quickly was asked to co-chair our expressive arts committee and to be a regional coordinator.

And I became a faculty member with the Climate Emotions Resilience Institute and just started doing a lot of public facing work with all different kinds of organizations for a nonprofit. And it seemed to kind of coalesce into this paper that I wrote for eco-psychology about integrative eco-art therapy and how specifically it's addressing humans fractured attachment to the natural world. The shift that I have seen over the last six years of bringing this framework into my practice of working with trauma, essentially, working with overwhelming experience, and we are all either experiencing or witnessing individual and collective trauma, you know, on our communities, on our planet, on the more than human world.

It's been a wonderful journey in progress.

Pihkala: Thank you for sharing that sounds fascinating and courageous to take it outside and almost instantly rewarding is what I hear you say. And Thomas, you have a very long history of taking therapy and psychology outdoors, so I know this resonates with a lot of things in your history and mind.

Doherty: Yeah, well, more your story resonates with almost every guest we have has a some sort of origin moment or origin series of moments. And so that's, that's part of it. You know, you know, in this case, we're talking about art therapy and someone's mission or goals there, but it could be almost any aspect of life or what people do for a living. But, but in this case, it's such a rich area.

In my book, I have a chapter on creativity and arts and it was, it was a really, it was one of the most enjoyable chapters that I worked on just because there was so many. I mean, when you, when we start to realize, well, just to step back and you know, we talk about this on our, on the podcast a lot, but this idea of our environmental identity. So we have this identity in relation to nature and the natural world, which for many people can be quite dormant. Like they haven't really been coached to talk about that aspect of their identity, they haven't been coached to talk about their, you know, environmental values or their aesthetic connections or the places that they love or places in nature that really call to them. It's quite common. So almost everyone has this experience.

But you know, it's just not something that's talked about even in school. You know, we tend to, you know, science is you look at nature through science or politics or justice or natural history which is which is all which are all great but there's a whole other piece here which is you know how my connection to nature is shaped by the books that I read and the paintings that I see and the music that I listen to and once you turn people onto that then it's almost endless all the different influences.

I think artists as artists have always been pioneers in environmental consciousness in any age of human civilization so we think of the romantic movement in Europe, the romantic poets or paintings or a poet like Emily Dickinson or, or Walt Whitman. These are, these are people that are masters at expressing all different kinds of thoughts and feelings around nature and the natural world. And, and then that, and we're talking about bringing this into our own lives, you know, us, us partaking of this. And so I think, I know with myself, I've always had to reassure people, you don't need to be some sort of fancy trained artist to do this kind of thing. Cause I think there's a lot of shame and inadequacy with environmental consciousness. Like, I'm not green enough. I'm not outdoorsy enough. I'm not this, I'm not that. So I, I imagine more that that there's something about empowering people to get past their, their limitations about their preconceived limitations about creativity and art.

Keshet: Absolutely, I mean a couple of things that I always tell people and I'm happy to share with your listeners is that we all have an innate desire to self-express. Christopher Henshelwood who is a famous archaeologist in uncovering and deciphering ancient cave paintings around the world. You know, he's talked about the unique symbolic mind of our species. We've seen to have, as far as I know, across species, it's truly singular to our species to create symbol in response to our experience. And symbol, of course, can be visual, it can be written, it can be spoken, it can be moved. So we've had this innate need to literally say with our hands on the wall, I was here and it meant something to me. This meant something. This meant something to me and to the people around me.

And that is a really unique experience, which you do not have to be Picasso to enjoy. And Picasso, of course, famously said that he painted his whole life to learn how to paint like a child. But there's also, there's so many different access points to one's creativity. I also tell people, I don't draw well. I love to be incredibly expressive and spontaneous. there is photography and there's collage and there's lots of different ways that we can give form to image and to symbolic meaning in our minds. It's right there. It's right under the surface. So much of it is just giving ourselves permission, just permission to begin to tap into that primordial, you know, this repertoire. Being creative, didn't used to be something that you had to pencil in. It wasn't a hobby. You it was just an innate quality of being human. And I think it's really time that we kind of recapture that for ourselves.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Pihkala: Well said, well said. The arts and crafts is a fascinating example of this. We have a Finnish word for that. Using creativity when you are making tools that you need in your everyday life. Which used to be still common in the time of my grandfather in Finland. It's been a very rapid transition from the agricultural society to an industrial and urbanized one. And I think there's been many losses which have happened when we lost that ability to somatically and very holistically practice creativity in relation to the daily things we do. It's much more difficult to shape your laptop into something which reflects your style of being in the world. So heavily resonating with this theme of living very literally, I think, is a fundamental dimension here.

Keshet: Yeah, it's an orientation. It really is an orientation to one's life, right? It's Nietzsche's Ubermensch, where your orientation to life becomes that this is, it's all art. know, this is, we have this wild spontaneity, just like the universe and just like the natural world, to create. We are creative beings.

And we're co-creating right now in this dialogue. And if really that becomes our orientation, then in terms of environmental identity, that sense of interbeing, that sense of deep interconnection with the more than human world becomes so profound and so embodied. So embodied. Yeah.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let's, let's talk about specific art activities, just to give, give us a flavor of it, even give listeners something that they could take away. I know I've been really interested in writing creative writing prompts, but more what are some examples of, you know, some of the things you do with people, some of the activities you do.

Keshet: Yeah, so I just, I want to preface it by saying that in eco-art therapy, we make art either in or with the natural world, right? So that means when we are actually in a natural landscape, in a blue or green or otherwise natural landscape, in response to the natural world, so through metaphor and symbolism. right, if a person can't easily access the outdoors for illness or being elderly and immobile or whatever it is, really kind of borrowing from nature in terms of metaphor and symbol, and also as material, borrowing from the natural world as material, whether it's incorporating natural objects into forms that we're creating or making pigments, earth pigments, almost anything that you engage with in the natural world can create pigmentation. Even water from different sources. Rainwater is going to have a very different pigment and biological makeup than saltwater and lake water and so on. So that's really kind of important to know, that you can make within this context, it's in response to or in or with the natural world. And in that sense, the natural world really kind of becomes your co-regulator and your co-therapist, so to speak. We as humans are incomparable to what the natural world can teach and lend us.

So the first prompt that I would like to share is the Climate Emotions Mandala Project which was of course inspired by Panu's research and the creation of the climate emotions wheel. When I first started doing climate cafes quite a few years ago now, it seemed kind of natural to me as an art therapist that we're gonna make mandalas. You know, this is not anything that I conceived of. Mandalas have been around for thousands of years and have been represented in just about every culture as a symbol of wholeness. Right? We have mandalas in the sky. It's the first shape. The circle is the first shape that a child recognizes in the face of their parent.

It's kind of this collective unconscious symbol of wholeness. And climate change and the polycrisis are, you know, it's anything, if it's anything, it's traumatic, it's fragmenting. So having this super accessible symbol for wholeness just seemed to be like a natural thing that can help resource people when they're talking about their feelings in response to climate change. So if you want to make your own climate emotions mandala, it's really so easy. You take a stencil, you can make it any size that you want.

But basically you can take like a paper plate or something round and make just a stencil of a circle on a piece of paper. I'm also happy to share my stencil with anyone that wants it. Kind of divorce yourself of anything that you've seen about mandalas, that they need to look symmetrical and eastern and totally balanced. That's not what this is about.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Keshet: What this is about is once you have that stencil, you notice that it has an outside and an inside, just like you have an outside and an inside. you are contending with that interface of how this changing climate, this rapidly changing world, is affecting the interiority of your experience. So you look at the climate emotions wheel. You see these different emotions, probably some if not all of which you yourself have experienced. And you set an intention, you simply set an intention to allow that to channel through you using line, shape, form, and color. There's no right or wrong. There's no right or wrong whatsoever. And you see what emerges.

And then an easy exercise that people can do in response to that, it's a Gestalt exercise where you look at the art piece, you look at your mandala, and you write down very quickly, as if this is not your piece, as if you're seeing it on a wall of a gallery, three to five adjectives that describe simply what it is that you see. And I'm almost tentative to say the second part of the prompt because I don't want for people to censor themselves. After you say these adjectives, you preface them with I am, right? So if you came up with these adjectives of colorful, complex, painful, jarred, overwhelmed, beautiful, right? You can start to see that you are in fact all of these things.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Keshet: You are, in fact, all of these things all at once, right? We can hold so much dichotomy at once. So that is a quick entree to the Climate Emotions mandala. And in terms of other projects, we're talking about the need for resilience, right? So a really kind of beautiful way for people to connect with their own innate resilience is to borrow from the natural world, right? So a prompt that I love to have people make is a river of resilience. What is within this river? Where is it flowing to? You know, what has made this river resilient? Is it the diversity that's there? Is it the foundation of the river? And really looking at that in terms of creating a map for yourself of resilience.

Then of course there is the incredible and always endlessly resourcing symbol of the tree. This is something that is symbolized in Kabbalah, in the world of the chakras, and the tree of life. The tree of life. And really kind of thinking about your roots, what is rooting you, what is foundational in your trunk? What are you reaching out towards? What is in your upper canopy? And what are you hoping to transcend for, right? So there's so many different ways that you can take or borrow from living systems and create art about them in a way that you both learn from these beings in the natural world and learn about yourself at the same time and thereby also create and deepen that environmental identity where you are in tune, you are attuned to the river, to the tree. And I mean, I can go on and on. There's so many different things.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. So if you're, if you're following listeners, just, just to be clear, a mandala is typically a circular kind of image and it's often spiritual, but it could be used in a lot of ways just to make sure people knew that term mandala. And if you just Google mandala and look at different mandala figures, you can see it's a universal around the world, but we're talking about making your own. And I've done exercises like this over, over time. In fact, yeah, I can remember even when I was quite young, younger, first exploring my environmental identity, some of the first art exercise I did were quite impactful because some, we've never, we've never opened up this channel of, you say, externalizing, you know, some of our feelings and thoughts in symbols and in beautiful symbols. So, you know, I was looking up the definition of, I was trying to look up the definition of art because it one of these terms we use, but like, what is it actually, what's the definition and you know, one of the, you know, one of the parts of the definition is producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

And I thought that was really helpful, you know, because it speaks to why the creativity is needed, because those are the things that are missing from our environmental experience a lot is beauty and emotional power, especially when you're thinking about climate change. And dangerous, dangerous issues, but also just our own connections with nature, you reclaiming. It doesn't mean there's not problems. And it doesn't mean that all the other parts of reality don't exist. But what we're doing is foregrounding these true authentic experiences of beauty, connection, interbeing, you know, or the boundary of myself and my identity is fluid with nature and place and stuff like that. And then of course, emotional power because there's just really emotions are so hard to express with words, sometimes a picture or a sound or a painting or a sculpture or a physical movement is much more expressive than any language, you know, we could use. So I think it's just speaks to the power of this. What do you think?

Keshet: Absolutely, I mean there's the science of awe, right? And being in the presence of something that exceeds your current understanding of the world. And you don't have to be standing in front of the Grand Canyon to experience awe. A teenage client that I work with told me a few months ago on their way home from school, it was that golden hour, and they saw on the side of a stop sign a fully intact spider's web and that golden light coming through the spider's web. And, you know, as a result of being engaged in this work and this process, they said to me more seeing this and just pondering for a moment what that required and that this creature knows how to do that. I just felt bigger on the inside. And that was, you know, that was so poignant because this process and being able to externalize that, again, either into written or symbolic form or moved form, you know, it allows for that awe to have a space to exist and for you to metabolize it and therefore integrate it.

Doherty: Yeah.

Keshet: And I want to say in regards to the definition, sometimes in response to climate change and the polycrisis art can be quite ugly. Not necessarily beautiful, not something beautiful to behold, right? It can be ugly, it can be scary, can be anything. But there's beauty in that too. There's truth in that too.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Pihkala: Mm, yeah.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Pihkala: Yeah, very interesting. I was about to comment the same, that beauty is a quite complex thing actually. I have some colleagues who work with environmental aesthetics. So that means conceptions of beauty and good and the human relationship with the modern human world. It's quite interesting stuff, know, if you have a powerful storm generated by global warming, anthropogenic global warming, are you allowed morally to feel awe in front of it, for example? So it can lead to complex ethical questions for people. I would say that it's always possible to experience quite a lot of emotions and they can be ambivalent, but if we start self-censoring ourselves, that's going to be problematic, but this could lead into a long discussion about beauty and aesthetics and so on.

But Mor, really love your examples and I see a lot of power in them and the interplay between inner and outer for example is so important here and physical objects can help people to grasp that. Collage is a method that I know some people are using like Claude Watfern, a climate psychologist from Australia and luckily as you said, the field is growing but still there's much to be done in this field. So I'm very grateful for the work you and many people are doing.

Doherty: Yeah. And I think it's helpful to realize that this is also a developmental process because once you do get involved with arts, then you develop, then you realize you have a style or you have an aesthetic or a sensibility that's unique to you. So you might, you might gravitate toward the non-stereotypically beautiful, beautiful images or the powerful images of the awful. Awe, like awe, you know, awe or awful, you know, it depends on how you look at it. So, you know, think about this also listeners, it's a developmental piece, you start, you have these epiphanies, and then you, when you do more exercises, you start to see patterns, and growth, and style, and then you then you need to learn, as all artists do to recognize, well, I have my style that I need to kind of stand for my identity, my particular message and truth, but then there are other truths. There are other styles and then there are other modalities like painting or music, whether you're a musician or an artist or a sculptor. And, and then even one exercise I have are things that I've drawn years ago that I'll look at and I'll learn something from today from many, many years ago. That's another piece to these things last over time.

I know in my writing exercises that I've done with people around environmental identity and their environmental timeline where people will, you know, pick out different key points of their life, key, key turning points or key experiences, and then maybe write about that particular experience, something happened when they were a child or something like that, or as a young person. But then, then I might ask them to then rewrite, rewrite that experience from a different perspective in the, in the time like maybe write it from the place's perspective or the other people's perspective or the animals perspective or the sky's perspective, then you could start to look at these experiences, you know, separating yourself out of them and seeing what the other voices are. And then we get into a truly ecological, you know, ecological perspective. And then you can translate that into a short story or a fiction or a poem. So there's no end. There's no end to it. It's just, it's really I think the key thing is permission to use the tools without, like you say, censoring yourself, which is why we need support and we need our therapists and groups and things like that, Yeah.

Keshet: Yeah. Yeah, Thomas, you said many important things just now, and one of them is that images and things that you create, they are like a relic, you know, it's a time stamp. And there's few things that are, I think, as encouraging for a person who has gone through a challenging time, a challenging journey to be able to look back at that journey and to see the evolution and the emergence of a far more coherent and resourced and connected human. And I have seen that across all the settings in which I have worked. And it is so utterly affirming to be able to see the things which have remained resonant because they are true to your authentic self and the things that you have really been able to emerge from. And that quality of physical creation is really unique and really powerful, especially as we are working to help instill cultural repair as people are really shifting away from this hyper-individualized sense of being to a far more expansive sense of being.

Pihkala: Thank you for voicing all that and the word relic is highly fascinating here also. Dear listeners, I hope you've got a lot of ideas that you could do yourself and know, inviting a couple of people you trust and then showing what you have been doing or developing something together. So at the best situation, there's gonna be an arts therapists available, but if not, get active and creative. There's a lot of very good methods and as usual, we'll be posting links to the podcast websites to things that Mor has been doing and others. As always, time flies. It would be very interesting to continue, but we soon have to wrap up.

Doherty: Yes. Yeah, Mor. Thank you so much. This was a great conversation. It's, you know, Panu and I do this podcast, at least me to energize myself and to remind myself of the creative ideas I need to function. hopefully listeners got some things out of this and we'll have a bunch of neat links in the show notes

Mor, Panu, and listeners everyone be well. Thank you very much.

Keshet: Thank you both.

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image credit | Dmitri Bong

S5 E13: Fostering “Good Mind” Teaching for Climate Change with Maria Vamvalis Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Season 5, Episode 13: Fostering “Good Mind”: Teaching for Climate Change with Maria Vamvalis

“And when I talk about regenerative ways of being, I'm really talking about interrupting the logics, ways of knowing that these harmful systems have produced in us. So what does it mean to practice logics that are not rooted in supremacy of humans over animals or … what does it mean to practice a slower way, an emergent way that is rooted with connecting with life, connecting with the land? What does it mean to really hold reverence and devotion for life?”

“I believe that our actions to protect and regenerate come from love. That it's the bird song that we love that ultimately makes us want to take action to protect, to regenerate. And so this regenerative field of practice is where we can actually be really unapologetic in our deep longing for love and connection and relational vitality. And … bring that forward as a key medicine and a key frequency that is needed as an antidote to the kind of horror and despair and violence that the systems are currently producing for so many …”

Maria Vamvalis designs learning environments that strengthen collective well-being that help people rediscover their capacity to act together in conditions of uncertainty, through promoting critical thinking and relationship skills. Hear her inspiring conversation with Panu & Thomas.

Links

• Maria Vamvalis and Anayennisi

  • Vamvalis (2023) “We’re fighting for our lives”: Centering affective, collective and systemic approaches to climate justice education as a youth mental health imperative”
  • The Critical Thinking Consortium (TC²) Seven Transformative Thinking Habits
  • The Association of Canadian Dean's Accord on Education for a Sustainable Future
  • Accelerating Climate Change in Teacher Education
  • Beyond Sustainability: AI, Education, and Regenerative Futures

  • Program Example: Future Climate Collective (Portland, Oregon)

  • 2026 Climathon

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I'm Thomas Doherty

Panu Pihkala: I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to climate change and happiness. This is our podcast, the show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about, well, you know, a lot of things, issues about climate change and the environment and politics, but mainly we're thinking about what it means to be happy in the modern world. And I'm psychologist and I'm coming at this from a mental health and a wellness perspective, Panu is emotions scholar from Finland. and we've got a bit of an emerging theme on today for education and schools and young people and inspiration and for that we have a special guest with us.

Maria Vamvalis: Hello, my name is Maria Vamvalis. I'm a founder of Anayennisi, a regenerative field of practice and a director at the Critical Thinking Consortium, Canadian not-for-profit.

Doherty: Yeah, we were really excited. We've already been having a neat conversation with Maria and I've been aware of her work for a while. So it's really nice to have her on the show. Panu and I know you, Maria have crossed paths in the past. So Panu, do you want to get us going?

Pihkala: Warmly welcome Maria also on my behalf. Lovely to see you again and continue our talks. You've been up to many things, but there's some common threads in them. What you said briefly about what you have been doing already includes mentions of them. So very holistic and humane and interspecies approach to things. Could you start by telling something about your path towards where you are now?

Vamvalis: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think I've always been really drawn to this deeper sense of interconnectedness, even when I was a child, this sort of relational consciousness that I did not find a lot of mirroring for as I was growing up. I think in many ways it's educated and socialized out of us. But I was really deeply concerned about the environment and, you know, really all the violence that I felt in our society and this drew me to education and wanting to figure out ways that we can teach to create a more beautiful world, know, a more joyful world, a world where we were flourishing. And I started teaching about climate change about well over 20 years ago before it was even in the curriculum because I knew that this was something young people would be dealing with.

And through my experiences as an educator, I just became more and more concerned as I saw the cultural denial and delay around the issue. And I became very concerned about young people's mental health and how education was going to ultimately respond to that. And that led me to doctoral studies where my question was, how do we teach for climate change and climate justice in ways that nurture meaning, purpose and hope? that really support the psycho-spiritual wellbeing of learners. So that's really been part of my trajectory and doing that work and then trying to bring that research really into practice in these times.

Pihkala: Warm thanks for dwelling on that and listeners, if you have listened to previous episodes you'll notice that there's a lot of common between what Maria is doing and what I and Thomas are passionate about and I also have a long fascination and interest towards education and emotions and Maria, I know that you also have some Greek roots. Would you like to say something about that?

Vamvalis: Yes, yes, both of my parents are Greek actually. They're both immigrants to Canada. My mother came when she was six years old, my father later in his twenties. And I think my Greek roots have always been deeply important to me and probably have also influenced in seeing my relatives who really had to come because of colonization and civil war and for many reasons were displaced from land that they truly loved. And seeing the impacts of that displacement on them, I think has always been something that marked me as a person is understanding that and going back to that land and feeling.

I think those ancestral connections and how powerful that is when you recognize your family has tended to the land, has tended the olive trees. And so the regenerative field of practice that I've started is called Anayennisi. And Anayennisi means regeneration, revival, rebirth, renewal in Greek. And it's really an impulse that I think we need to be taking very seriously right now in these times of, well, you know, ecological collapse in many ways is what we're seeing.

Pihkala: Yeah, that's profound. That's profound and the displacement and colonization and also resonating with what is happening globally. That's another angle to this. The world is becoming strange on quite deep levels. do you feel that this Greek heritage has affected your relationship to the modern human world? is it like having two kinds of ecosystems that you easily bond with, the one where you grew up in Canada and the Greek one, or how do you see this?

Vamvalis: Yeah, no, this is, I really appreciate your question actually, because what I want to acknowledge is how it was my privilege of connecting with Haudenosaunee knowledge keepers here in the Canadian context, that actually, I think was the first time that that relational consciousness that I spoke to about was actually deeply mirrored and met. And through those connections was was able to deepen my connection to my ancestral homelands and my sense of that deep responsibility, but also recognizing the responsibilities that I have here to the place in which I live and to the treaty relationships with the First Nations that have been in many ways dishonored in this context. And so it's really connecting my own deep ancestral roots and the love of the land that is part of bringing myself into right relationship with the land and the people and the histories of where I currently live, of where I'm currently situated. So there's really a through line and it's the Indigenous presence.

Pihkala: Mmm.

Vamvalis: and that deep respect for relationality of being in right relationship that I think has so much to contribute to the ways in which we're thinking about how to respond to the current moment.

Doherty: That's lovely. Yeah. So many resonances with other guests that we've talked about. We always ask people their origin story and it often comes back to their place of their childhood and their family and then this larger thinking about the world. And as you're talking, Maria, I think we should just also highlight the special. I think there's a unique Canadian context to this too. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but as I've observed, I grew up near where you live Maria in New York, in Buffalo, New York, but just knowing a bit about Canadian culture. Unlike other countries, in North America in particular, you know, there seems to be this, and Canada is not perfect either, of course, but there does seem to be a much more welcoming attitude to just basic ethnicities and cultural backgrounds. And then a unique kind of Canadian outdoors nature kind of ethos. But also, think openness to the First Nations. And anyway, this it seems like there's more support for this kind of direction toward right relationships. I mean, I've been in Canada at workshops and I've seen the blanket ceremony, for example, you might be familiar with, you know, where the Native ceremony or it shows how the how the Native cultures were slowly kind of picked away through the treaties. There's just an attention like the New Zealand to the treaties like it's much more people are much more aware of the legal rights of native cultures. But you want to speak a little bit about just the Canadian side of this.

Vamvalis: Yeah, well, think, you know, obviously, I think this actually has a lot to do with an educational response that's needed. And we can look at the particular Canadian context, but also think about this from a global perspective as well, which is that if we think about climate emotions as signals, you know, they're signals.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Vamvalis: in many respects of us being not in right relationship with the earth. And if we resist just individualizing them and start to think about them as responses to systems that are harmful, we can look at these roots as, you know, that that coloniality, which has so much about land displacement, of disposability of peoples. Getting peoples off of the land by whatever means necessary. You know, these roots are certainly part of the Canadian context of land dispossession, of residential schools, of destruction of cultures and knowledge systems that are actually profound and sophisticated and have so much to offer. In the Canadian context, there's been a process of what's called truth and reconciliation where these histories and the truth of the histories are really coming to light.

And there have been, there are ongoing efforts to come back into right relationship, to honor, for example, where we live. And it actually affects the area where you lived as well, Thomas in New York. But there was a great law of peace that came after there were many, many wars in this area. And the great law of peace really comes back to the fact that having a good mind, you know, being a good mind. So we're thinking about this podcast as being about happiness or, you know, that the good mind is a mind that does not seek to harm others, including the more than human world. And if we think about the great law of peace as actually the citizenship law, you know, in this region that has been erased, coming back into right relationship is coming back into that good mind that we do want to see the flourishing of all life, that that is actually an impulse that we have as human beings to connect and to feel relational vitality and reverence and beauty and joy. And it's really systems that interrupt that, that are part of the extraction, you know, without any constraint.

Extraction of the earth without any constraint, whether it's, you know, to, you know, be so violent to get what it is that you need. This is really underlying so much of what we're currently facing. Like the systems that we're in have actually created the complex emotions that many of us are contending with. And to bring it back into that wider perspective. So that's, I see as a through line.

Pihkala: That's fascinating and reminds me of a phrase I haven't been thinking of in years coming from the dissertation studies time which is by Joseph Siddler this American earth-minded theologian and humanist and the line is, abuse is use without grace. Abuse is use without grace. So that's from roughly 1961. that was an early sermon on environmental matters, but really resonating with what you say, and having the right mindsets and the deeper dimensions of what is meant by morality and even by style. What is the style in which we are in the world and treat others? Whether those others are humans, humans or not, so I think you are really going to the heart of this podcast also, so how to live a meaningful and good life in the classic sense. So not just a good life of having lots of luxuries, but what is really good.

Doherty: Hmm. Yeah, good mind. love that. I love that term. Yeah, and so we've done a good job on the high ground of, I think, tracing out some of the some of the ethics and the vision of this work. Let's think about teachers and teachers in public schools, because Maria, I know you're actually the ground that you're working in is the school system. And that's an area that always needs more support everywhere, I find. So for teachers in the audience, let's think about them and our listeners. Like what are some of the practical things that you're doing in schools or what are some of your initiatives? I'd be curious about that.

Vamvalis: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we've actually there's there's a number of things that we've done. One of the things we've done is that we've actually had a national online climate education course that that actually have taught co taught with a Haudenosaunee educator to bring these ideas of truth and reconciliation and, you know, decolonization, bringing that together with climate action.

And bringing really holistic responses so that with teachers, we actually talk about supporting the climate emotions, making that a part of how we teach. Because if we only taught students the scientific evidence and projections, we all know that's very dispiriting in many ways. And then we're not actually making the space for what will arise when young people are realistically encountering the scope and scale of ecological harm. But one of the things through my work with the Critical Thinking Consortium is that we actually look at the challenges around youth mental health, which are caused by a whole series of things, you know, intersecting, and to actually intentionally teach what we call the transformative thinking habits. So through a research-informed process, we've identified seven transformative thinking habits that we believe actually help transform some of the complex climate emotions into a deeper sense of agency, including collective agency in order to tackle these issues. So critical mindedness, relational thinking, courageous thinking, visionary thinking, accepting discomfort in learning, being inquiry minded.

If we actually teach the curriculum through these thinking habits so that, and especially in the context of AI, we wanna keep a focus on thinking, and nurturing that thinking and seeing these thinking habits as a profound way to engage any subject really, that we can teach history through a visionary lens, visionary thinking and inspire it to engage the climate crisis. So that's another piece is really scaffolding how we do that work in classrooms.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, I'm so glad you brought in the AI as well, because that's the danger is people kind of naively kind of outsource their thinking, so to speak. AI, of course, doesn't think I'm trying to stay away from actually the term artificial intelligence, because it's really more of a problem, you know, learning machine that's based on statistics and binary thinking. It's not thinking in the same way that humans think, you know, with our heart and our gut and our mind and all this other stuff. But yeah.

Pihkala: Yeah, that was actually what I was going towards here. that's very fascinating those thinking habits. And what do you think, Maria? Are they also partly affective habits or emotional habits?

Vamvalis: Yeah, so I think when we talk about the holistic thinking, mean, when you're thinking holistically, I you really are engaging mind, body, spirit. And so when we're looking at thinking, it's not just a cognitive act. know, are thinking, we are engaging more holistically with how to approach learning and bringing the whole learner. And I think actually that distinct Indigenous knowledge systems, when you look at their educational approaches, they actually center the learning spirit. know, they use this term, Dr. Marie Bautiste here in Canada, in the Canadian context, talks about the learning spirit and that this is central to education, that we nurture the spirit. And I think we can, I think we could absolutely have a conversation to talk about the climate crisis as being something that is destabilizing not only the psyche, but really the spirit of people that the systems that we've created are harming the spirits of young people as they're thinking about if these systems are not interrupted, if they're not shifted, there's such dispiriting projections for the future.

And so I think it's helpful to actually, you know, invite us to talk about the spirit, you know, the underlying spirit, which is about again, being in right relationship to all that is, that interconnectedness, that we've been separated from the epistemologies that so many of us are trained in disrupt that way of knowing, that way of being.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. “Dispiriting “is another great, great term because spirit also is just if we if we if we just divorce it from the mystical side spirit is just this inspiration is just this motivation. It's our breath. So it's like getting your breath knocked out of you, so to speak. How does it look? What is some of these transformational habits actually look like in the in the classroom with an actual education topic?

Vamvalis: Yeah, so for example, let's come back to this idea of the treaty relationships being really important in the Canadian context and wanting to invite students to think historically if we're inviting them into history education, but a way for them to engage with that history. it's not just studying the past in this kind of, you know, inert, let's look at the facts of history. we could invite visionary thinking by giving them a really rich inquiry question, like what would our community look like 10, 20, 50 years from now, if we began to truly honor treaty relationships. And we open up this inquiry that's visionary, in which they have to actually understand the history of treaty relationships.

And so really rich inquiry, critical inquiry is such a powerful way of engaging learners, of supporting mental health and wellbeing, and actually being intentional about the way we're scaffolding these transformative thinking habits, you know, so that we're encouraging that kind of visionary thinking, but rooted in evidence, rooted in oral histories, rooted in making connections systemically about what happened in the past and where are we now because we've dishonored treaties? What might be possible if we honor treaties? And you can feel the sort of richness and engagement of an inquiry like that and bringing that to life because our schools aren't necessarily, they're not therapeutic spaces in that way, but they are meaning making.

They can and should be meaning making spaces. And that's what engages us. And that's what invites our wholeness as learners to come in. And to use that to actually reimagine and think regeneratively, I think would be so powerful in this current context.

Pihkala: Hmm. Yeah, that's wonderful and resonates with many things in creative pedagogies in Finland also. And I'm tempted to talk more about the Finnish situations, but I will not. How has the reception been, Maria, for the work you and others are doing in this sphere?

Doherty: Yeah.

Vamvalis: Yeah, actually, we've had a lot of really positive engagement. So one project I was involved in is we've had a climate camp that's been led by the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education, Dr. Hilary Inwood, the Eco Schools and our largest school board. We've collaborated to do this professional learning in the summer and brought some of these frameworks together. And you know, teachers have reported that they feel more energized, that they feel more capable and more confident of really bringing these issues forward and teaching in ways that nurture climate action and agency. And that's the big piece is nurturing collective agency in the way we do this work. With the transformative thinking habits, as we're continuing to engage educators and system leaders. We've seen again a lot of enthusiasm and excitement because people feel that sense of possibility. And I think that is really, important in this moment when so many people are feeling quite heavy and feeling a lot of despair and anxiety. So we've seen a lot of really positive reception to these more holistic approaches to this work.

Pihkala: That's very good to hear. In Finland, experience of many of us working with education and teachers is that even relatively short interventions which build resources and encourage people to be in touch with also difficult emotions and then moving forward to how to build collective agency and efficacy. So that's very powerful. Of course, there's the challenge of how to invite those teachers who are not so motivated in the first place to start coming towards these meterials. But anyway, one has always to start where we are and not everything can be at one spot just testifying to both the potential and some of the challenges from the Finnish side.

Vamvalis: Yeah, absolutely.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah, this is yeah, this is great. So pedagogy is one of those terms, you know, for listeners, that's like, you know, your theory of education, the teachers, the teachers sort of way of educating. it's one of those words that signal we're thinking we're thinking about our teaching and we're going to school about it. Yeah. So let's just stay with the teachers, because I think, you know, teachers just really do deserve support. I know I was at a climate conference last year and was a bunch of educators and education leaders talking about climate education. And I just was struck by how top down it was that even though the values and the content was good, was just all, I just felt it was just loading the teachers with so much, what the teaching standards and they have to get this information and that information. I remember saying at the group that I was with, know, what about the teachers themselves?

Like they, I think the danger is a lot of teachers don't feel confident to teach this material because they don't they haven't worked through their own environmental identity. You know Maria you're so eloquent about your culture and your background and you've clearly sat with it and worked through it but most teachers I think just haven't really thought about this. They're so I don't think they have the person skills sometimes to do this kind of work or how do we support teachers to do their own much like with therapists you have to do your own work first how can this is kind of a large just general question but like how can teachers do their own work?

Vamvalis: Yeah, yeah, it's, it's so important. And we actually at the Critical Thinking Consortium speak a lot about the inner work and how we sort of look at a Mobius, you know, like a Mobius strip, and this idea that there's no, there's no really distinction between the inner and the outer and that when we're teaching, like, our practices are, are actually so much grounded in our own beliefs as educators and how we are in the classroom has so much to do with, you know, who we are and the kind of reflexivity, you know, the really thinking about our mental models, our belief systems, our assumptions. I do think that, you know, there's many intersecting issues here. And again, this is why we can't really separate the systemic dimensions and just individualize because we've got education systems that may work at cross purposes, that in many respects, they're oriented toward educating for jobs on a burning planet right now. And so there's one issue is, you know, what is the purpose of education currently? You know, I do believe it needs to shift toward regenerative, you know, and planetary flourishing as being the purpose of education. And the work will come from that. I do think that teacher education programs really taking this seriously. So we're fortunate in the Canadian context that the Canadian deans for schools of education have actually signed an accord saying that the climate and nature emergency must be taken seriously. And we're starting to see more and more uptake in teacher education programs around this. I'm seeing signs of that as well in the United States. Some states and districts are doing this work, of course, in others, not at all. And in fact, we're going in the opposite direction. So it's uneven globally, but there's momentum and movement. I think teachers finding communities of practice is very important.

What often happens, and I found this in my research, that there'll be one teacher who's the eco teacher or the tree hugger teacher, and the school will be like, check, that teacher has us covered. And that is not the approach we need to be taking. We actually need, you know, communities of practice. So I've also been doing work with the school board here that we're building a climate education leadership program for the most motivated teachers. So they've got a space to come together and not feel alone within that larger system. And we believe in kind of doing these levers of systems change. You know, that's been part of my approach is, you know, building those communities is part of this. So even teachers taking online courses and finding others, you know, and not feeling alone. But yes, the inner work is really, really important.

Pihkala: Is this Anayennisi connected to that or more specifically what I'm asking as we come towards the close of this episode, time always runs out. What do do via that field of practice?

Vamvalis: Yes. Yeah, Anayennisi is really the place, it's a field of practice for people who want to practice regenerative ways of being. And when I talk about regenerative ways of being, I'm really talking about interrupting the logics, ways of knowing that these harmful systems have produced in us. So what does it mean to practice? Logics that are not rooted in supremacy of humans over animals or, you know, what does it mean to practice a slower way, an emergent way that is rooted with connecting with life, connecting with the land? What does it mean to really hold reverence and devotion for life?

What does it mean? Because I believe that our actions to protect and regenerate come from love. That it's the bird song that we love that ultimately makes us want to take action to protect, to regenerate. And so this regenerative field of practice is where we can actually be really unapologetic in our deep longing for love and connection and relational vitality. And you know, bring that forward as a key medicine and a key frequency that is needed as an antidote to the kind of horror and despair and violence that the systems are currently producing for so many and of course, inequitably around the world.

Doherty: Hmm. So you're such an eloquent speaker. It's just really great to listen to you. It's why we do this podcast. So I could get my, my own batteries recharged. That's so nice. I really appreciate all of the things you're saying. Unapologetic in our deep longing. That's in our deep longing. That's just such a nice, we're so far away from the, you know, the situation in the US right now is so dire. I feel like what we're talking about is, you know,

I think a lot of people are afraid in the United States because of our current government and they are afraid of even having conversations like this, or at least some of our superficial leadership is so far away from this kind of true cultural building, true knowledge that it is radical. It is very radical.

Vamvalis: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And really it's interesting because we look at the roots even of what's happening in the US and that kind of situation. We think about all these things we've been talking about and how certain ways of being of exploitation, of dominance, of hierarchy, of extraction that creates this kind of harm and fear and separation from relationality and really the joy of life. The joy of life is in the connection, it's in the loving. And why we've chosen to organize ourselves as human beings, you know, or why our systems have organized themselves is something we need to do really deep inquiries into and come back to that deeper knowing of what it is to be a good mind, coming back to the good mind, right? A good human being. And I think that this, the connections and the relationships is what forms the resilience that we need to counter the fear, to counter the kind of fear that's being really unleashed in the world.

Pihkala: Well said, very well said, I think. Even though we are over time, it reminds me of this Greek word, Spoudaiogeloion. Sorry for butchering the pronunciation, but that's the old concept for being grave merry or practicing earnestness. Spodio, Geloion. So that's the combination of comedy and tragedy and being so serious in your joy that it's able to hold both. So because of your Greek roots, just wanted to get it out there. But greatly enjoyed this conversation and very, very grateful for all the work you do.

Vamvalis: Thank you.

Doherty: Yeah, thank you Maria. Yeah, thank you.

Vamvalis: Thank you. It so nice. It went so fast. You're right. It's so lovely.

Doherty: Yes, that's what we say. Yeah. Well, listeners, we yeah, Maria, listeners, and, Panu. I want to thank everyone for the time. We're going to put a bunch of links to this community of practice and the Canadian Dean Accords and a lot of the really juicy things, especially for, know, for educators out there. This one is I mean, this is for all of us, but especially for educators out there. We only you know how challenging it is to to work in the classroom with truly holding mental health and well-being and trying to find joy. So we'll put this episode out. It'll be out soon and we'll have links to Maria's work, and Maria and Panu and listeners, everyone be well.

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Panu and Thomas explored the increasing vilification of environmental and social protest. They reviewed research on the "repertoire of oppression” that state and corporate groups are employing such as disingenuous application of laws regarding terrorism and organized crime to non-violent, legal protest actions by the public and advocacy groups. These tactics enable more oppressive and violent police action, that in some cases are used to justify brutality, killings and disappearances. While these repressive acts are typically associated with authoritarian states, they are alarmingly being used in democratic societies including Finland, the UK and the US. At the same time, counter-movements are also using legal methods to pursue more strenuous charges of “ecocide” and “climate atrocities” and practicing new and creative forms of resistance and grass roots organizing. As Panu noted, oppressive government actions can have unintended outcomes, for those who stand for Earth: Criminalization unites us even more.

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image credit | **Juliette Jarvis**

S5 E11: Revisit Your New Year’s Resolutions from a Systems View Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Season 5, Episode 11: Revisit Your New Year’s Resolutions from a Systems View

Panu and Thomas reflected on the passage of the winter season in Northern climes, lengthening daylight and earliest signs of spring. Thomas shared ways for listeners to revisit their New Year's goals and resolutions from a systems view – not just as singular actions but as ways of creating a healthy synergy in one's life. He highlighted that small changes – forgoing unhealthy food or drink, starting a new exercise plan, or doing a daily journal – can lead to broader changes in your life and relationships. Adding something demonstrably healthy will tend to beget health. Taking away something demonstrably unhealthy will tend to beget health. It’s the synergy. And further – resolutions should be seen as part of a larger system, where your personal health improvements influence and connect with broader social and environmental systems. This approach works because it reframes your resolutions as part of a larger, interconnected whole, making them feel more meaningful and impactful, which can motivate you to pursue them with greater commitment. And, it’s not too late to start.

He and Panu also validated pressures for political action in service of justice and human rights that listeners may be experiencing given threats to civil liberty in the US and other places. Can listeners imagine their individual impulses to greater health as part of their quest for societal health?

Links

• J. M. Berger (26 Jan, 2026) Anatomy of Extremism: What ICE Is Revealing in Minnesota | The MIT Press Reader
• Martin Niemöller, German Lutheran Pastor “First They Came…”

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is our podcast, a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change, other environmental and global issues, and particularly their emotional responses and their feelings and their coping. So we hold the space here for the inner game of this work.

I’m coming in as a clinical psychologist who's worked in this area for a number of years and Panu in Finland, an emotions researcher who's been doing a lot of the deep unpacking of a lot of these emotional concepts that's been useful for researchers and therapists so this is our podcast and we're speaking at the beginning of 2026 and coming into late January, early February, a really interesting time on the kind of seasonal calendar. Panu, how are you doing today and how's the weather in Helsinki?

Panu: Greetings from a very cold and snowy Helsinki. So with global warming, one never knows what the winter is going to be like in Helsinki. And even earlier on, because of the Baltic Sea, it was more random than in inland Finland. But now for practically a month, we've had sub-zero temperatures and snow.

Doherty: Mmm. Yeah.

Panu: And today in the morning it was minus 19 Celsius, so quite brisk, brisk weather but beautiful, high pressure, sunlight, white snow. So that gives energy to people and that's been good. How about you, Thomas? I know that you've been traveling quite intensively in relation to speaking about your book. Have you had any chance to recover from the travels yet?

Doherty: No, not really actually. You know, on another episode we'll talk in detail, but because of my new book I've got a chance to travel and do book talks and I've been in Europe. Over the last few months I've been in the US and also in Europe and also in Dubai and the United Arab Emirates for the Emirates Book Festival, which was a lovely...

Kind of, I would almost go so far as to say life-changing experience only because I got to spend time in a very different part of the world and meet people from around the world. And so I will say though, even with all the upheaval in the world right now, politically in the US, for example, and in Iran and just all the different things that we're dealing with, it proved my, my travels have proved my point that wherever I go, I run into these really gifted people that are quite dedicated and reflective about their lives and being ethical and working on climate change and helping the earth and being expressive. So I just really feel a sense of connection, you know, with people around the world. So it really counteracts my impulse to feel disillusioned about humanity and how effed up everything seems to be.

Panu: Hmm.

Doherty: So anyway, that's a short little place where I'm sitting. But you know, there's a lot of, it's an interesting time. I think right now, people start the new year with big ideas about what they want to do, or sometimes they do, and then here we are, get into, now we're into the year a little bit. Changing so I think it's just an interesting it's just an interesting time of the year to stop and reflect and check in and things like that so anyway to more formally answer your question I'm looking for some home time and to be here in my place.

Panu: Yeah, thanks for sharing sounds very understandable and looking forward some other time to get deeper into your travel experiences.

Doherty: Yeah. So we were talking about this idea of New Year's resolutions and what happens with them after a month or so. Is that something interesting to follow up on little bit?

Panu: Yeah, lots do that also. And then there's all the newspaper and social media discussions about how well or badly the following of those resolutions went.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I thought, you know, I thought it would be a good thing to think about because I'm sure many of the listeners, you folks out there have, well, I will make a broad generalization that people that listen to this podcast are conscious of their health and conscious of being a healthy person, both physically and mentally, socially, spiritually, all those dimensions, and are trying to be a part of the solution, trying to be their best self. I think that's, like, you and I share that, and I think our listeners share that, too. So I'm just imagining a lot of listeners either had goals in their life already or started the new year with a sense of wanting to take on a health behavior or let go of something or add something, which is totally natural and healthy. And it does support, as you say, culturally. This is kind of a meme in the news cycle about resolutions. And I think the shadow side of that, think, is that it's easy to make fun of people when they're trying to change, make fun of people when they're trying to be healthier, and kind of almost cut them down and say, we'll see these resolutions don't work.

And it's superficial and it's fake. But I think it's important to get underneath the superficiality of it and really understand it, because it is an impulse to being healthy. And people like a fresh start and an ability to cut through some of the old habits to start a new one. So I think we have to be really compassionate to ourselves. But I've seen in my work with people as a psychologist and a therapist, we talk about this a lot. But can I share a little bit about what I've learned about this?

Panu: Yeah, that would be very interesting.

Doherty: Teah, yeah. I mean, my latest thinking about it is that, you know, when you're thinking about New Year's resolutions, it's not only about the action, like the singular action, like, I'm gonna do, in the US, there's a thing about,or actually internationally doing like a dry January where people like for, know, take a break from it using any alcohol.

Panu: Tipaton tammikuu in Finnish. Tipaton tammikuu which means dropless January, literally translated.

Doherty: I like it. That's better. A dropless January. You know, and apparently that started from a woman who was training for a marathon or something and it became a meme. But it's actually remarkably common and it speaks to people's, well, speaks to the amount of alcohol people have, but it also, people are realizing there's a lot of impacts to alcohol and oddly enough, younger generations are using much less alcohol and people are much more conscious about alcohols, negative effects, cancer, and things like that. But that's just one example of a New Year's resolution. It could be to exercise more, to be more physically fit, or to find a new relationship, or to change your job, or to fix up your home.

And those are all healthy, I think the problem in society is that people take it linearly and focus on the action. And so the success is predicated on whether you do the resolution or not, how long, so-called give up on it or surrender and so there's this impulse like to say “I'll just just surrender to society” that's not the right way to think about it. it's about the synergy you know, it's this it's a synergy because your life is a system so like when you change one thing, one small change can spark systemic change and I think that's the way to think about it. So listeners if you did have a resolution then think about what you were trying to do and how it affected your larger life because that's where the change is really.

Like for example if someone did try to do a dry january and not drink alcohol, then if you don't drink alcohol, then you have to do something else. You have to have something else to drink. You have to experiment with other enjoyable beverages. But if you don't drink, then it changes your body, and your body's not processing the alcohol and all the sugar and all the effects there in your brain. So it'll often change how people sleep, change their sleep patterns. They'll have more or less energy. They might need less other drugs. Like if someone's drinking a lot, then they don't sleep well. Then in the morning they have to drink a lot of coffee or tea to caffeinate themselves. And so that changes that. And then you might be more inspired to exercise because you're feeling healthier and then you exercise more.

It's that synergy that's really the key. And it could be keeping a journal all as your resolution or going to a yoga class You know or fitness class or playing an instrument doesn't really matter, but it changes your life. So adding something. I mean my general rule of thumb I think is that just like with cooking if you add a good ingredient to the recipe It will make the recipe better, a good healthy, you know fresh ingredient or if you take away something that's not good, then it will make the recipe better. you know, that's the goal. health is really this combination of things. So, you know, it's the synergy. So it's not too late to come back to this.

Panu: Mmm.

Doherty: You know, even now in late January, early February, this is actually the time where whatever information you gain from your life change, then you can actually act on it. So like the resolution January is like the test run. So anyway.

Panu: Yeah, it can be a return to resolutions February. And anyway, making the resolutions reflects your values and there may be very valuable commitments there.

So that's also something. And when we go into environmental and climate behavior, that commitment is highly important. And there will be ups and downs anyway in the practical choices we make, even though we make the commitments. But if we stay true to those values and commitments, that's a lot.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And in fact, I think each season brings its own health invitations too, because when it's certainly when it's the least in the Northern Hemisphere, when it's the spring and the weather warms and, you know, I just saw a video yesterday from an outdoor therapist in the UK and was talking about the green man archetype, know, the green man story in Celtic countries. But, you know, you start to see the green man pop out when the leaves are starting to, are starting to, you know, the little buds and things like that. But anyway, spring warm, warm weather that just sparks people to be more active and outdoorsy.

So that's an invitation. The summer is an invitation to yet another thing. The fall is an invitation to another, you know, another kind of set of behaviors and then the winter. So each season, each season has its invitations to health. But the key is like, don't give up. You can still start and it's not about the resolution only. It's about how it changes your life. If anything, it just makes you more conscious of autopilot behaviors, you know,

Panu: Mm-hmm.

Doherty: When I was traveling, I got into a, and when I went to Europe and Italy, they have a lovely, many lovely traditions of drinking, drinking a aperitif or all these kinds of really nice things. And then you get, you get totally used to it very quickly. You know, your body habituates to these things and then, you know, can you, can you shake up your, your nervous system? Essentially you become more conscious, you know, cause we, we try and you try something new and it's addicting and we're conscious of it for a while. And then suddenly it just becomes autopilot behavior.

Panu: Yeah. that can easily happen. Health and ethics are quite closely connected here. I know many people whose New Year resolutions are ethical decisions, trying to do something more or better for the world. If we take these concepts such as one health, for example, which pays attention to how the health of the planet and people and other creatures are all connected.

This connection between health and ethics and resolutions becomes ever more prominent. So hopefully that can also be sparked different times of the year. And I know that we both follow the old rhythms of nature and the festivals associated with them. So there's very interesting content in them also in relation to what kind of ethical questions and basically themes about life tend to arise in a given season.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah, what kind of what are some of the ethical things you've experienced people working on?

Panu: Yeah, some people might commit to giving more to charity, for example, or trying to commit to doing voluntary work for the greater good more regularly. And that, course, is often powerful if you can form a habit towards the target of the resolution. So if it becomes part of the daily or weekly rhythm, it's much more probable that one keeps on doing it. But as we have been talking here, it's always, of course, also possible to return them if we fail to follow them. So those kinds of ethical things. in Finland, the Christian tradition is much present in culture.

And this traditional half-day between winter solstice and spring equinox. It's called Laskiainen. So it's been taken over by the idea of Christian time of fasting and Shrove Tuesday.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.

Panu: Is the most common name. It also has an element of going downhill on snow with sleds and different kinds of nice things we've developed in the Nordic countries that you can go downhill with. So it's like going down, descending traditionally to the fasting period, but also celebrating that it's like a carnival in its literal meaning. Saying goodbye to eating meat. That's the etymological root of the Carnival and Shrove Tuesday is an example of that. So people's resolutions to do good, sometimes in Finland, are also linked with this fasting period. And for example, the Protestant Lutheran Church in Finland has been trying to advocate for an ecological time of fasting. So that it would have a pro-environmental behaviour dimension. That's not a very popular or widespread thing in Finnish culture, but some people do it.

Doherty: Mm-hmm Yeah, yeah, that's that's what's lovely about all these holidays could you get the Mardi Gras Carnival holiday here and the yeah the Ash Wednesday and in the Catholic faith and lent Yeah, yeah, I think all of these speak to a really human tendency and need to repent, to recover, to, well, to celebrate, but also to duty, you know, what is our duty? In my book I talk about, your duty is literally like you know what is due? like what is due from you to the world? And so this conversation does move you know rather quickly to the social and political realm and justice.

Panu: Hmm. Mmm.

Doherty: And which in a natural way actually because I think then systemically people move from changes in their own body and their own small circle of health to like what is my ethical duty to the larger world. that's, you know, listeners, that's perfectly normal too, because again, from a systems perspective, these are all nested, linked up systems. My physical health is part of the larger system of nature and my family and community is part of larger social systems and political systems, national systems.

Panu: Mm-hmm.

Doherty: It is all connected. It can seem really confusing. But if you have that, you know, in my book, I talk about, know, people have this scale vertigo where there's, you know, there's so many scales of things, they're just dizzy with, with the news and different levels of things. And so that's, that's, that's like level two, that's more advanced New Year's resolution work, right? Because you realize, okay, how can you understand your small change, like whether it be something as mundane as writing in a journal each morning or walking more or exercising more or taking a break from alcohol or sugar or something like that. How does that, how can that possibly link to the state of the world? But it does because we're part of the world, we're part of nature and so when we become healthier, the world around us becomes healthier and then it, practically it gives us energy, more energy to be out in the world doing things. So it is all linked together. So it's not selfish, it's not selfish or egotistical to work on your personal health.

But you know for some people, know, the drive is to do more social work. In my book, you know, in the action section, you know, I'm trying to help people do, you know, as I say in my book, know, unburdening your conscience frees up mental energy for taking action. But what then? One of the most common barriers to environmental action is lack of clarity about what actions can have a true impact. Right. So then we then then we start to question, does it matter? You know, is it worth it? You know, my actions. But that's where this idea of ceremonial behaviors comes in, which I talk about, which is that, you know, some of these actions are ceremonial. They don't they're not going to change world by themselves. Like if you recycle, know, or exercise or recycle, or plant a garden, or go to a march, you know, or do any any of these things. But they're ceremonial in the sense that they do stand for your values. They're a way for you to broadcast your values publicly and stand up for yourself. So the metaphor is like if someone's doing martial arts, they might go into their dojo where they do their training and there's a ritual to bow before you go into the dojo or to the practice space or someone goes into a church, might, like a Christian church or a Catholic church, they might kneel or in the Catholic face, they might have the holy water and cross themselves or take their hat off in a church, all these kinds of things. Those are just ceremonial behaviors, but they stand for respect and value. So that actually means a lot.

Panu: Yeah, they work on people, that's true. Yeah, so they might not cause very much visible change in the world, but they may be linked with who you are and how you are in the world. So there may be sort of hidden power in them, even though they may seem purely ceremonial. This could lead into discussions about various things. In life and also religion including rituals and ceremonies and so on but perhaps we'll go there one day. We have been touching upon that in some of the previous episodes also.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, to tackle that for in my book for people, I, you know, I differentiate between ceremonial behaviors, which are things that we do that might not necessarily change the world, but do stand for our values, and we shouldn't dismiss them or belittle them. And then low-hanging-through, which is sort of behaviors that are fairly easy to do right around us that we can do those things that are just, you know, right there. And you know, and then real change is where we really have to dedicate ourselves to making change. you know, low hanging fruit might be just saying, my friend goes walking every morning, so I'll join them on their walk, or I'll join a club, or I'll do something that's fairly easy and easy to get into. But then the real change is like, okay, I'm really pushing myself, whether it be an exercise routine or really going through a detox from some substance like sugar or alcohol or really making a life change, letting go of things that are painful to let go of.

I see a clear a clear analogy to what's happening around politics in the US, particularly around the crisis in Minnesota with the really heavy-handed federal paramilitaries, know, rounding up people in Minnesota and the protests and then the deaths and the shootings. You know, it's really awoken a lot of a lot of questions and crises in the United States a lot of a lot of ongoing crises are reaching different boiling points. And for some people, the ceremonial behavior is looking at the news, talking about it, potentially going to a march, or joining things that are easy to join. And then the real change is where people really will put themselves in a place of danger or try to obstruct violence and things like that, or change the government. And that's a personal choice. That's a personal choice level, going from the ceremonial things to the actual easy things to the hard things. But that can happen when we devote ourselves and take time. I think the danger is to avoid what I call theater, or in the book I call it climate theater, because it's about climate change, was basically pretending, acting as if you're making a change when you're really staying in your comfort zone. So that's one of the hard personal questions is that, how do I judge my actions? Am I being more theatrical about it or am I really devoting myself and putting myself into a change zone?

Panu: Yeah, and there might be of course different levels between the low hanging fruits and the hard stuff. And then requiring various levels of commitment and courage. And people in Europe, including Finland, have also been following closely what's going on in Minnesota and Minneapolis. And that takes a lot of courage to go to the streets and try to work for the greater goods. there also the dynamic is present that if everybody thinks that why would I be needed, then there is no group power. But then this old question of the interconnectedness between individual action and collective action, it requires the individuals to get out there and then you have collective action, which can be very, very, very powerful.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and so, you know, we'll wrap it up for today, but this, just to realize that your personal resolutions, you can recover these and they're systemic and they do lead, they do link to your larger conditions in the world. And if you have questions about this, feel free to reach out. can find us at climate, hello at climatechangeandhappiness.com,

I'll put a link in the show notes to a really interesting story about in-groups and out-groups around extremists, because we have a lot of extremism in the US right now, violence. you can be in the in-group of the extremists in the sense of being like a white person in relation to like a white supremacist, but you can also, as a white person, resist the white supremacist and the violence that they're doing. But then that puts you in danger. And so it's kind of interesting to think about all that. But you had a poem that you were thinking about earlier. Maybe we can remind ourselves of that poem as we finish up, Panu

Panu: Yeah, I've been thinking about it in relation to what's going on in the States. So that's the poem by Martin Niemöller, a German Lutheran pastor. He was thinking about the events in Germany in the 1930s. And I know that this is written in places in public in the US also. So this is how it goes.

First, they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the socialists and I did not speak out because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

So with gratitude to all the courageous ones.

Doherty: Yeah. Thanks, Panu. Yeah, I haven't heard that poem in a while and it is unfortunately highly relevant right now in the world. So can you stand up for yourself in various ways? know, the message is if you stand up, people in power need to stand up for people that are powerless, I guess you could say. And if we keep giving away our power, then eventually someone will have power over us.

So these are huge questions. These are big world-changing questions, but we focused personally today listeners on your own life and realizing it's not too late for you to recover your impulse to health and lessons you've learned from any resolutions and remember is the system. So again, even certainly with the politics as well small actions small healthy actions can grow and have systemic effects. And so it's your freedom to decide what level you want to work on, but encouraging everyone to try to be their best self and to do it in connection with other people that can recognize it, just like and I recognize our efforts together.

So Panu, I'll let you go into your evening and taking care of your boys. And I'm going to get into my day and everyone be well.

Panu: Take care.

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image credit | **Silas Lundquist**

S5 E10: On “Kinship Medicine” with Dr. Wendy Johnson Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Season 5, Episode 10: On “Kinship Medicine” with Dr. Wendy Johnson

This was a fascinating episode! Thomas and Panu welcomed Dr. Wendy Johnson, a family and addiction medicine physician, to discuss her book "Kinship Medicine." Dr. Johnson shared her journey from political advocacy to medicine (“I went to medical school to do politics better.”) and the discussion delved into the social determinants of health, the historical roots of Western medicine, and the need for collective, relationship-based approaches to well-being (“Wellness comes from communal strength.”). Wendy drew a metaphor from the chrysalis stage of development, emphasizing the importance of planting seeds for a better future and the role of “imaginal disks” that hold blueprints for future transformation. Join us for an inspiring talk in the new year.

Links

• Wendy Johnson, MD
• Book: Kinship Medicine (2025, Penguin Random House)

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to climate change and happiness. This is our podcast for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change, obviously, and other environmental issues and larger questions like connection to our earth and connections to the land and connections to community and our personal health. And, you know, we always bring it back to the emotional experience and we are really lucky to have a special guest with us today.

Wendy Johnson: Yeah, thank you for inviting me, Thomas and Panu. I'm Dr. Johnson. I'm a family and addiction medicine physician, and I am in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and author of Kinship Medicine, which came out earlier this year.

Doherty: Yeah. And I'm really excited to have to have Wendy on the show with us. I got a chance to meet Wendy recently and see her read in Powell's books here in Portland about kinship medicine. And when I saw her book and started reading about it I felt a kinship to the book because it really felt like it was on a parallel track with my work and with Panu's work and with my recent book Surviving Climate Anxiety. So we've been chatting.

We've interviewed a lot of interesting people on our podcast, but Wendy is the first medical doctor that we've had on. That gives us a whole area to talk about in terms of personal health and larger conceptions of health in our in our society and how to live a healthy life in terms of one's values and how that leads to advocacy and connection. So there's a lot we can talk about. No doubt we will moan that we don't have enough time after our 30 minutes, but let's do what we can. Panu, do you want to get us started?

Panu: Warmly welcome Wendy also on my behalf. Lovely to meet you. In Helsinki there's a growing interest to planetary health. Couple of very nice doctors working on that. It's relatively marginal topic in Finnish medical research and that world. But it's growing luckily and then there's of course many good people working with the modern human world and trying to advance respect, gratitude, interconnectedness. So there's many things in common with your book. it would be very nice for the listeners to hear something about your journey towards this time and place where you are now. So not every medical doctor ends up writing about kinship medicine. So would you like to share something about that journey?

Doherty: Mmm.

Johnson: I mean, I think the roots of it come from my upbringing. My mother is the daughter of Italian immigrants who grew up in my grandmother grew up in the Alps near kind of Slovenia and Austria in Northern Italy. My grandfather grew up along the shores of the Adriatic in a town called Fano and they had, you know, they instilled in my mom a connection with nature, a connection to the land that they brought, and also a deep sense of community. Growing up visiting my grandparents, you know, it was like a very fluid situation, people coming in and out of the house, maybe they were family, maybe they were friends, maybe they were neighbors, you know, it was just like a connection to the larger community. wasn't just our little house closed off. The door was always open and people were always coming and going. So I think, and then I continued throughout my life to really have themes of living in community. I think I gravitated towards that even though it's not facilitated or encouraged really in the United States and our culture that we have right now.

And then in my practice as a doctor, think over the years, maybe those ideas of connection to nature as a child, we always took camping trips. We weren’t very wealthy. And so we did cheap vacations, but always in nature. And again, those themes, you know, continued throughout the rest of my life. And as a doctor, I think through 30 years of practicing, I have seen that the lack of community and connection to nature in my patients really is a huge influence on their health, which we don't address or talk about at all in Western medicine, almost at all. And I kind of thought about this a lot and just thought. So the frame almost that we have this very individualistic frame of Western medicine that, you know, your wellness and your health is all about your biology, your genetics is really wrong. Cause that's only about 20% actually of what determines your health. That other 80% is all those things I'm talking about, the connection to community, your social situation, your social status, your educational background, all those things we now have called the social determinants of health. And they also include your connection to the environment. And when I look around, see, you know, we are really ecosystems, medical science is really showing that with our microbiome, you know, you're actually mostly not you. You have 30 trillion cells that have your DNA, but 39 trillion cells that have other DNA, your microbiome, the organisms that, and those organisms keep you alive. You couldn't live without them.

Doherty: Hmm.

Johnson: So your body is an ecosystem in communication with other ecosystems. So really health is a communal attribute. And, those ideas developed over, like I said, 30 years of practice and seeing patients and kind of thinking about what determines their, whether or not they get well or not, whether or not they see themselves as well or not, and what determines that. And so you know, writing a book is a journey. And certainly when I started writing it, maybe these ideas weren't so formed and you kind of, you read a lot of other folks, you learn a lot of other views and you start to really think about how our frame in medicine and health really keeps us, kind of keeps us sick, keeps us disconnected and how we can change that.

Doherty: Yeah, that's beautiful. I am wondering about so many things about this. Let's hold the thought because I do want to get back to the social determinants and all of this stuff. But if we ask that question again, you know, what do you think, you know, could you say a little more about your early life and how, you know, how your journey to be a medical doctor? And how did you, I know a lot of practitioners that do this work have had to be pathfinders and even push against their training a little bit. So how did your training work and how did it, when did you decide to be a medical doctor and how did all that, what's a little bit of that story?

Johnson: Well, I have a very funny story with that. I actually gravitated towards more English. My undergrad degrees were in English and political science, and I gravitated more towards advocacy. One of my first jobs out of college was being the organizer for the 20th anniversary of Earth Day in Ohio for the events that were happening there. And so I also worked in the state legislature. And working in politics, actually got a little discouraged back in the day because in electoral politics, in the legislature, it seemed that a lot of people working in politics were, I mean, they cared about the issues, but they also cared maybe even more about the game of politics. so, especially, you know, not even the elected officials, but the people working on the staff, you know, it seemed like a lot of what we spent our time thinking about was, strategies about who was going to get elected, about who was going to do this or that, and it wasn't really about the issues as much.

And so, and I felt like the work that we did was disconnected from the lives of real people and what they really needed. You know, it was people making assumptions and judgments maybe not based on data, not based on people's stories. So I decided if I wanted to do politics better, I needed to have a position or a profession where I could really be a receptor for people's stories and really understand what people were experiencing and what they needed. And so I went to medical school to do politics better. And it seems like a weird thing, but there's a lot of, I found a lot of mentors who also seem to have that same ethos. And one of them, not mentor, because he lived in the 1800s.

Doherty: Hmm

Johnson: was Rudolf Virchow, 1800s, who was a famous German physician, of developed cell theory, helped develop cell theory. And one of his famous quotes that I love, it's kind of my guiding quote is “medicine is a social science and politics is just medicine in a large scale”. And so that's kind of one of the guiding principles of my life and how I practice medicine and what I bring to my practice.

Doherty: Hmm.

Panu: Thanks for sharing that, that's very interesting and I'd love to mention a book here which I've always found very fascinating which is Roger Caillois. Caillois I guess might be the French pronunciation, Man, Play and Games. That was written in the time when one could use the word man to refer to whole humanity so things have got better in that sense but it's about the games people play in different cultures and histories both the sort of free time games but also how

Johnson: Hmm. Yeah.

Panu: game dynamics can be linked to profound motivations of different people. And that was really eye-opening as you say that some people really just love the game and they might want to win, there might be a strong inclination towards that and then there's some games where it's more about luck and luckily also games where it's more about just the playing and the fun of it. And of course I've been leaning more…

Doherty: Hmm.

Panu: Towards the third option. And I tend to regard this as a more sort of ecological way of living, even though, of course, in the modern human world, we have also lots of competition. But I don't think, Thomas, that we've ever talked about Roger Caillois or Johan Huizinga, who wrote Homo Luden, the man who plays. So that gave me an opportunity to go there. And very interesting, to hear the story of your.

Johnson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's an, I'll have to look that book. I don't know that book, so I'll have to look at that. That is interesting. Yeah.

Doherty: Mm-Hmm. But it's it is really great to you know, it's always a good sign of a conversation when people start pulling out books like this that you know, are influential on our thinking, you know, so it tells us well, first of all, tells us we're not the first people to, we're not the first people to challenge to grapple with these questions. So, you know, we're in a place of with kinship medicine and with you know, eco psychology and a lot of these holistic, you know, topics, we're in a place of perennial questions like what does it mean to live? What does it mean to live? What does it mean to be a human? What does it mean to live a good life? You know, this episode is coming out.

Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Doherty: will be coming out in the beginning of 2026. you know, it is a great time to think about what is it, what is it, you know, come back to some of our first principles as people, like, what does it mean? we've gathered all this wisdom over the years and as I start my new year, what does it mean? What does life mean to me and how can I be my best self and how can I remember my inspirations? So I love that quote. I went to medical school to do politics better. That's a great quote.

Johnson: Right. No.

Doherty: Yeah, so you came into medical school with a sense of advocacy and also sounds like with some a little bit of rebellious questioning about the whole edifice of medicine.

Johnson: Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, I certainly I think I come to everything in my life like that. I don't know where I got that from specifically, but I do think I'm somebody who thinks, you know, why are we doing it this way? And is this really the best way? I mean, to your to your question about the, you know, how can we live our best lives kind of, you know, I think you know, right now that's really difficult for a lot of people because things are so dark in the world and it's, you know, it's often something that comes into my office, you know, I see people who come in and, you know, how are you doing? Well, I'm doing okay, except for the world. You know, that is a very common thing my patients sit down and say to me. And I do still see patients a couple days a week.

Yeah, it's a, it's a challenging thing. You for somebody who is advocacy minded, politically minded, you know, how do you connect what's going on in the world and your feelings about it with what's going on in your own life? And you don't want to just ignore it, but you don't want to get, you know, completely dragged down by it either. And I think. In Kinship Medicine, I talk a little bit about the answers and the end of the book are, you know, first of all, building a foundation of resilience in your own community and figuring out what you can do locally to do that. Because I think our ideas about wellness, again, are very individual based. But the reality is that wellness really comes from communal strengths.

It's hard for an individual to be well when a community is sick around the individual, despite what our billionaire overlords think. So I think that's step number one. And then step number two is an idea of a sense of purpose of how you can engage with what's going on around you in a constructive way.

And there's all kinds of research showing that a sense of purpose in your life is connected to better health mentally and physically. you know, in a very tiny nutshell, that's kind of what I talk about in kinship medicine as well.

Panu: Mmm. Lovely to hear that also and listeners, if you want, can check out our previous episode with Bob Doppelt and the Transformational Resilience Coalition. There's a lot of same things going on with what Wendy here testifies, the community approach and high focus on meaning and purpose. And also perhaps the episode with Matteo Innocenti from Italy and the importance of community when there's more disaster coming also. In several European countries we've noticed that if we take nurses and doctors it's usually nurses who resonate better with eco anxiety or climate anxiety. We have been wondering about this dynamic there might be many reasons for this but does that ring any bell for either of you? I don't think too much that we have been talking about this.

Johnson: Yeah. Do you have thoughts on that Thomas?

Doherty: Yeah, well, it's funny that you mentioned that, Panu, because, yeah, I don't think, Wendy, you and I had talked about this, but, know, in my graduate school, my psychology graduate school, I ended up doing my dissertation in behavioral medicine, and I worked at a cardiac rehabilitation clinic. And then I also did training at UMass Medical Center and the behavioral medicine clinic and the John Kabat-Zinn mindfulness program and things like that. So actually I spent a lot of time in the medical system and in cardiac heart health, it is the nurses that really are attentive to that, at least in the traditional cardiac scene, at least as it was 20 years ago, the medical people were really dealing with the mechanics of really complicated surgery, like open heart surgery and placing stance and dealing with people with heart attacks. But all of the psychosocial support and the emotional, the emotional expression work was facilitated by the nurses, they essentially ran the the nurses and the physical therapists ran the cardiac, so that they dealt with all of that social stuff. And I do think that is that is a pattern in a lot of health issues. Yeah, yeah.

Johnson: Right. Right. Well, I'm going to take this back to history again and sort of surmise that, you know, you can look at that again, the roots of how we got our medical system that we have. And one of the roots goes back to Descartes and the idea that the mind and body are separated, that the body is a machine and Western medicine should be concerned about.

Doherty: Uh-huh.

Johnson: how that machine works and fixing the machine doesn't have anything to do with the mind. Now we know that that's not actually true and your mind hugely influences your physical and biological health as well as your mental health obviously but that's the roots of Western medicine. And so then another interesting thing happened around the same time we were developing the germ theory both in Europe and the United States is that this allopathic tradition of men, there used to be like a million healing traditions, including midwifery and a lot of things which were much more integrated, holistic and connected to the natural world. And then this allopathic machine view of that decided, this is the scientific view. This is the enlightenment view. this, this, is the better, superior way of healing.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Johnson: And it's dominated by white men and the white men both in Europe and in United States in different ways had ways of basically demonizing all other forms of healing, including midwifery, know, which had a lot of what I would call scientific basis, much more than OBGYN in the early years of the 1800s and 1900s. And, you know…

Doherty: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

Johnson: All that kind of relation to, I mean, in Europe, it resulted in witch hunts and, you know, a lot of that was killing these traditional healers. In the United States, there was this thing called the Flexner Report, which demonized all other forms. If you didn't go to Harvard or Johns Hopkins and get a medical degree. So I think that, you know, a lot of those people that had those healing skills, were women and people of color, went into the nursing profession. And then all of that other psychosocial was kind of offloaded to nursing. And so I think we inherit that division today where, you know, Western medicine still, although now in the last 20 or 30 years has said, we should pay attention to these social determinants of health, but there's still no place for it because the system kind of grew up without paying attention to it. So we have a for-profit, I mean, even in places where you guys have a much better healthcare system in most all European countries and everybody at least has access to it, it's still run on money, right? Things that you can't charge for don't really get done. And so there's no real space for those social determinants of health, but much better in Europe obviously, it's, you know, things that aren't kind of monetized don't happen quite as easily. And so that healing connection is not monetized, so it doesn't really get prioritized.

Panu: Very interesting historical thinking on this and also the very enlightenment western mindset of problems to be fixed. Which is seen in troubles around mortality and death also. there's a very common inability to think sort of in a common sense way about death and dying and doctors end up trying to fix it. And I think that extends to also other more existential questions such as anxiety about the state of the world. So if you only approach it as a mental health problem to be fixed, it's not going to get us very, very far. There's also aspects of how are we going to live in this kind of world and what kind of systemic change would we need to do so that these things would get better.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Panu: I've been hearing a couple of things that you've been saying about what kind of political work your new book is doing in the world, but I wondered whether you'd want to talk a bit more about that.

Johnson: Well, what? Go ahead, Thomas, sorry.

Doherty: Yeah, let me hold that thought, Wendy, before you jump in, before you jump in, we have about 10 minutes. And so I want to, as you answer, I want to bring it to personal health also and what we can do as people on the individual level, because I'm really curious, even a sound bite about how you, you know, advice you give to people in your book about this because.

Johnson: Okay.

Doherty: I feel like I want to make sure we land on personal well-being as we fly around the political questions.

Johnson: I think they're really deeply connected because I think that our anxiety comes from this idea that we need to fix this problem, but then we get all these things that are not fixable. We're headed towards apocalypse. so there's this disconnect culturally in our heads about the messages that we keep getting. I'm supposed to be hopeful. I'm supposed to be optimistic, but it's just we're all going to die. how can I be optimistic?

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Johnson: So a couple of things, I think it is important to have a realistic acceptance of the the mess that we're in. We're in a really big mess and faced with that. How can we have answers that might get us out of the mess? But maybe not in my lifetime. I mean, I, you know, often plant fruit. I have a little orchard in my backyard and I'll plant, you know, I planted a bur oak this last year. The bur oak is like, you know, probably two inches, three inches in diameter, you know? I am not, I mean, hopefully that bur oak will survive, but I will not live to see that bur oak be 50 feet tall. You know, I will die before then. That is okay, you know?

And so this it's connected to what Panu was saying about acceptance of death and acceptance of our lifespans and not trying to delude ourselves into thinking that if you know there's billionaires that spend two million dollars a year so that they can defy death and you know while other people don't have food to put on the table. What kind of society is that? So I think in one hand it's just OK. Things are really bad.

You know, we're facing this climate catastrophe. What can we do in face of that to plant the seeds literally and metaphorically so that at some point something better can rise out of this? And it might not be something that I ever see in my life. You know, very likely it won't.

You know, I might just be the person who got picked to live through these dark times and not see the butterfly that emerges from the chrysalis, right? But what can I do? OK, so this is a thing that I recently learned is that caterpillars have inside of them. What's called and whoever named this, I just want to meet them and thank them. They have little collections of cells called imaginal disks.

And those imaginal disks contain inside of them the instructions for making the wings and the antenna and the bodies of the butterfly. So I think we're in a chrysalis stage right now. And our job is to be creating those imaginal disks, those little centers of experimentation and resilience and advocacy that will, you know, become the butterfly eventually, which we may not see. And so I think we all need to experiment. A writer here in New Mexico, who I stole his ideas for the book and quote him, Bill Du Bois, talks about building arcs, these metaphorical arcs. I mean, we may build 10,000 arcs and maybe only 100 of them get across the ocean and the storm that comes and become whatever and our centers of resilience from what something else can rise. So when we want to connect it to our personal health, again, I think the job of creating these imaginal disks is communal. And so what can we do? And that actually happens to be what's good for us as humans. I have another little thought experiment I give in my book, which is imagine that you and I are aliens and I gift you a little family of humans as a gift, as that you can nurture. And you have to create a world where these humans can live their best life. What world would you create? Would you create a world where, you know, there's all kinds of environmental contaminants and people are all, no, you would create a world where there's a biodiverse community that you know where these humans thrive. They need clean air, they need clean water, they need connection, they need purpose. And so those are the things that we need in our personal lives to be well.

So what can we do in a very practical, like, I hate actually, my book has been categorized as a self-help book in like Amazon and different places, and I actually hate that. My book is a collective help book. That's how I would like it, but there's not a genre of that, but maybe we should create one. So I do think that we have to look around our communities. You will find a lot of things going on that you can join up with. If you can't find that start something, but start it with other people. It's not an individualistic thing. there's so many ideas of how you can connect with nature in a communal way.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Johnson: You know, going on hikes with friends, community gardens. In Santa Fe, we have the Santa Fe Conservation Trust, which volunteers go together and work on, you know, some of the conservation projects and things that we have in the area. There's all kinds of advocacy. I think even if you live in a city, there's ways to connect with nature and with other people.

I think there's networks of mutual aid that are really important right now when people are being persecuted in all kinds of different ways. And my friends in countries that have survived dictatorships have taught me that. So I think that in a personal way, first we have to get rid of our idea that our individual self is the most important thing in the world and change from an individual centric to a more life centric mindset. And from there, you really do see lots of ways to connect with others.

Doherty: Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. So as I come away with this, I thought there's a number of inspiring thoughts for my new year. But, really, you know, letting go of and it's hard to explain this, right. But letting go of personal health as a goal itself, you know, in the sense that it's never only going to ever be personal. Right. So we have to let go of personal health and, you know, really embrace collective health, which is sort of a disorient, can be disorienting for people, but ultimately more of a better orientation. Yeah. Yeah.

Johnson: I think that's right. Yeah. And I think it's just a mindset change. We get bombarded with all of this individual, the kind of capitalist infrastructure wants us to think of ourselves as individuals and wants to think, you know, how we get better is satisfying all those individual desires and needs at the expense of anybody else. And we have to just really reject those messages.

Doherty: Yeah.

Johnson: and really cultivate, as I said again, this more like life-centric. Think about how you're connected to everybody else. Think about how your actions reverberate throughout your community and make them positive rather than negative.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah. So listeners, we're going to wrap up here in a minute, but there's a really super inspiring ways to think. you know, it's, it's easier said than done. So we want to be careful. I know for myself, I love that, that metaphor, that, that image of creating the world for the little humans that you have, you know, and I think all of us intuitively know what would make the little human family healthy.

But then if we try to say, can I do that with my life? Then we do confront this whole system and this whole history. And it can be very disempowering and very disillusioning. But if we stay with it and then create little arcs in our life and little movements in the direction, that's really where the game is, right? Just little positive movements.

Panu: Exactly, this has been very inspiring to listen to you Wendy and talk with you Thomas as always and the old wisdom of when you practice care you receive care at the same time. So I think that's very much true also in these troubled times and really looking forward to engaging more with your book and work Wendy, so lovely to meet you.

Johnson: Yeah, thanks so much for having me on. It's been a great conversation. As you said, wish I could go on longer.

Doherty: Yeah. Well, we will put some links in the show notes to Wendy's book. And she's written some really great op eds that really get into this, you know, all this collective health and really engaging with the hard politics of the modern world. So, it's super inspiring. This is a great episode. So many quotes.

You know, this idea of imaginal, imaginal disks and building arcs and what does it mean to be human? what a lovely conversation to kind of, you know, expand my mind this cold morning.

So, listeners, Wendy, Panu, everyone, be well.

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image credit |**C Cai**

S5 E9: Having An Attentive Heart at New Year with Stephanie Kaza Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Season 5, Episode 9: Having An Attentive Heart at New Year with Stephanie Kaza

Thomas and Panu reflected on the winter season and the new year with Stephanie Kaza, noted Buddhist and environmental scholar. Stephanie shared her journey from Ohio to Buffalo to Vermont to Oregon, highlighting the profound impact of natural landscapes on her psyche. The conversation stressed the significance of community, mindfulness, and seasonal rituals in connecting with nature and coping with eco-anxiety. As Stephanie noted, "Spring starts in January" and having a mindful attitude helps us to pay attention to the world and note the subtle and never-ceasing seasonal changes. Join us for a observant welcome to the new year.

Links

• Stephanie Kaza
• A Wild Love for the World: Joanna Macy and the Work of Our Time (Shambhala Publications)
• Green Buddhism: Practice and Compassionate Action in Uncertain Times

• Conversations with Trees: An Intimate Ecology

• Phap Za and Phap Lu Hiking Zen

• Chris Ives Zen on the Trail
• See Also: CCH Podcast: Season 5, Episode 7: On Hiking and Zen with Brother Phap Luu

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, our podcast to show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about issues like climate change and other environmental problems and their connection with the earth and their connection with their place. This is the podcast where we really do get into the emotional side of things and our feelings. And we are really honored to have a guest with us today.

Stephanie Kaza: Hello, I'm Stephanie Kaza and I'm here in Portland, Oregon and near the Columbia River and Mount Hood and many other beautiful home-based spots here that I love.

Doherty: Yeah we're really glad to have Stephanie here. She's she's a local to where I live and we're going to talk about Stephanie's background and her role as a Buddhist scholar and an environmental scholar and a leader and someone who has worked with Panu and so we're going to we're going to talk about this and we're going to find a nice conversation here. And at the beginning of the year, at the beginning of 2026. Panu, do want to get us started?

Panu: Warmly welcome Stephanie also for my part. Lovely to see you and have another chance to talk with you. This is the character of the global world. So it's actually me who has most recently met Stephanie, even though Thomas and Stephanie are living in the same city in Portland. In autumn in Helsinki, that was a lovely exchange about environment and Buddhism and trees and many things.

I first came across your name when I was a young scholar of religion and ecology. So that was the first connection. But later on I've learned that you have been in many ways connected with the work that reconnects movement. And we did an episode remembering Joanna Macy, who I know you worked with and knew well. And this human and emotional dimension of environmental issues is in many ways familiar to you.

For the listeners, would you like to start by telling something about your journey to where you are now? I know this is an awfully broad question, but just to give listeners some orientation.

Kaza: Well, let me do that in a sort of geographic and a spiritual way. And I think that might help generate some sense of the emotional body that I've become. was born in Ohio where my parents were going to college at the conservatory of Oberlin, surrounded by music, I must say. And I did end up going back to college there. But then we moved to Buffalo, land of snow. It was so much snow in Buffalo, the land of winter. So when my father accepted a job in Oregon, it turned out to be a pivotal change for the whole family. And as we came across the country hauling a trailer where me and my three brothers slept in the bunk beds in the back, when we hit the Rocky Mountains, something happened to my psyche. I can't explain it now. I was only nine years old, but it was definitely an epiphany, a sense of awe. I was completely awestruck by the size of those mountains.

And of course then once we landed in Oregon, was beauty everywhere. We loved going to the coast to see the Grand Pacific Ocean. You could go up Mount Hood when you needed to see snow and mountains. And now I've of course, living here I've discovered the desert lands and the great rivers of Oregon. So, and as a matter of fact, I'm doing a jigsaw puzzle right now that's the state of Oregon. And every time I see a river or a coastal city, it reminds me of another beautiful place here. So I feel quite settled now in Oregon, though there was a long period of 24 years in Vermont where I was teaching at the University of Vermont. I tried the best I could to adapt to Vermont and learn that geography and feel a sense of bioregionalism there. I learned species names. I went for hikes.

But you know, I'm a West Coast person, so I'm very, very glad to be back. For me, spring begins in January, which is where we are now. So you won't see that many flowers here, but you will see the ferns and the mosses and the lichens are ecstatic with the rainfalls of the wintertime. And then pretty soon along in February, we have our earliest hellebores and witch hazel, and it rolls out across March, April, May.

I felt very deprived living in Vermont of all those months of spring and I'm very happy to be back here. So I will say just briefly in terms of spiritual journey that many of these epiphanies that have informed my psyche have been in the natural world and a number of them have been with trees. But what has supported them has been a cultivated pattern of paying attention.

Both as a naturalist, somebody in the field, what do you look for, know, color of bark and location, all that, but as a Buddhist practitioner, how to quiet the mind and how to remove some of the impediments that human beings are forever throwing in their way and making it hard to connect with other beings in the natural world. So for me, the Buddhist practice has been very important for how I pay attention to the world that I live in today.

Panu: Warm thanks for sharing all that and as a person who has been living mostly in Finland, the idea of a spring in January is of course relatively strange, although global warming is bringing elements of that into southern Finland also. But just as an anecdote, I clearly remember the first moment I saw the Rocky Mountains on a road trip in 2011 and awe and wonder, strongly present in my experience also. And dear listeners, you can notice that Stephanie is a person who pays close attention to where she is and all the relationality and interrelationality there. But I'll give the floor to Thomas now before going more deeply into that.

Doherty: Yeah, Stephanie, it's lovely to have you because your story is somewhat similar to mine. Of course, you might remember that I grew up in Buffalo also. And I remember, I have my coming out west experiences, being a river guide, climbing mountains, living in Arizona, and all this sort of stuff.

Yeah it's it's lovely. So you know I think we're just orienting Stephanie you're a great guest for the beginning of the year because we're you know it's nice to sort of adopt some sort of beginner's mind you know approach in the beginning of the year. It's we could do it any time obviously but the beginning of the calendar year gives us a structural you know permission to do that.

There's that famous quote about when your mind is stretched it can't go back to its original dimensions and it actually was about the original quote was about seeing the Alps. The person had seen the Alps for the first time. And so yeah I know Stephanie that you're in a kind of a mature stage of your career. And last year you were helping with many things in the world.

Kaza: Mm.

Doherty: Advancing the space for this integration of ecology and natural history and attention to the earth and also spirituality. And then you were around for the end of life for Joanna Macy who's a noted environmental leader. Where are you standing in terms of your career and life course. And you know this is not a huge question just off the top of your head like how do you how do see yourself aligning or do you have any practices that align help align yourself like how you see you on a live 2026 or where you see yourself going in the next the next little short period of your journey.

Kaza: Well, let's go back to that New Year's idea because I pay a really close attention to the seasons. It's also supported by Japanese Zen. have a tea ceremony is exquisitely aligned with how the seasons change. In fact, the Japanese think of the seasons as two weeks long because there's beginning of spring, middle of spring, late middle of spring, et cetera. So using that kind of approach,

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Kaza: The new year is a wonderful chance to see the year open up for those of us in a temperate climate from the solstice time. And I watched that really closely. I look at the sunrise and sunset patterns because there's a certain point in January where the day opens at both the end of the day and at the beginning of the day. And that's a real liberation moment to celebrate.

In Japan, they celebrate the New Year's and many other cultures do too, but in Japan it's about cleaning your house and preparing for the New Year. And I think of that as developing a stable base for where you're headed during the year. When you are not confronting a lot of clutter, emotionally or physically, it really helps you see what your path ahead will be.

So there's a certain amount of what I call therapeutic house cleaning that is helpful. And then of course, being out in the natural world. Now I am working on a new book project around Joanna Macy. So for me, I will need to stay pretty close to home and set up a kind of rhythm.

So what I see is stabilizing for a kind of stable mind and a stable heart is paying attention to the rhythms of the day, the rhythms of the week, and of the month. I pay also really close attention to the rhythms of the moon because I've learned that at the dark of the moon I'm really thin. I'm not nearly as creative and when that moon turns and comes out and begins its early crescent then again the sense of emergence and that's a theme I would highlight here.

New Year's is a perfect time to pay attention to the concept, the phenomenon of emergence. What is appearing that had been silent or absent before? How do you cultivate a mind that pays attention to emergence? And I will just say I find this an incredible practice in relationship to grief and loss, which of course is with us all the time around climate change.

But I have been around people who can't come out of their grief and loss. They're very overwhelmed by it. They're in the churn, in the tsunami, and looking for beauty and emergence. Anything that's arising helps lift a person up out of a space that feels like a kind of whirlpool you can't get out of. So January, back to January, is a perfect time for that.

Because even at the smallest level little things are happening. And I did learn this lesson in Vermont with a very skilled naturalist Ian Worley because boy I thought I thought Vermont was like nothing was happening across January and February and he would always always gently correct me. No, no you think nothing's happening but actually the trees are in March they're starting to photosynthesize. Look at the bark and all the various changes in the ice and the snow.

Doherty: Hmm.

Kaza: There's always, always something to look at and there's always something emerging.

Panu: Thanks so much for sharing that. In Finland, in ancient times, the change of the year was in around November. Quite the same as in the Celtic tradition with the Samhain. The dark time of the year and all the leaves are gone. That tends to support this kind of combination of outer and inner journey.

And sometimes when there's less to see in a way in the woods, for example, there's a possibility to see something which we don't usually see. So many things about what you say resonate with me in relation to Northern Europe seasons also. And that's a practical challenge, of course, in urbanizing societies, how to actually connect with those rhythms of the seasons and days.

Kaza: Well, I think it's very important to get outside as much as you can, not to hide in the winter just because it's cold or rainy, and to get outside and see the beginning and the end of the day, or to find a place where you can see the moon at night and learn how it's tracking across your neighborhood and your skyscape, and just be watching from day to day and building up a kind of internal knowledge of these things that becomes a kind of anchor.

Even in the midst of the chaos of crazy politics and people that you don't really want to emulate and, you know, civility shredding right and left, the natural world is still founded on many basic rhythms, the tides and the moons and so on. So climate change is certainly changing many aspects of our various ecosystems and some more quickly than others.

But there are rhythms that are still functional across time. And since we're staying with the January time, I would encourage people to plan something for the end of January when the dark quarter draws to a close. And that is from that end of October, early November time to Groundhog's Day or whatever you want to call it, early February. And then,

A whole new time is arising from the end of the dark quarter. So January can be a time for preparation, for cleansing, for planning, for seeing what's ahead, but just making oneself ready in some way, understanding that January doesn't last forever, as nothing does. And I will say, parenthetically, that's one of the great lessons from Buddhism, that all things are impermanent and it helps just to not cling so much to each thing because you know it's all passing, even your own life.

Panu: There's a beginning often hidden in the end, or what seems to be an end, but Thomas, what's on your mind?

Doherty: No, I’m just really enjoying the conversation. mean, I think it's just refreshing to come back to this. think so many so many of us and I would count as many listeners of this podcast just naturally gravitate to this, you know, Earth kind of an earth based life or reality that at the beginning and end of the day, is everything is Earth based and really relish coming back to these, you know, rhythms of nature and watching the sun and watch seasons and you know our we have to be somewhat militant about doing this because this is our society you know really pulls us away from all this sort of stuff so you know I think it requires you know discipline and action to sort of make space to go outside and to be in nature and all that sort of stuff so it's a good it's a good it's just a good reminder of things that we already know but I forgot because they're just long enough. They're just long enough that I forgot the lessons of fall. I forgot the lessons of winter and like, here I am again, the solstice. And, you know, really thinking about our own rituals. Like I have a tradition of a winter solstice bonfire that I do. You know, I've been doing it for years and years. And just it's just very simple but having an outdoor bonfire and having some candles and just recognizing that time so it's really it's refreshing to come back come back to this

Kaza: Well, let me add, I do a similar fire ritual when I can get to the right location because I have an altar where I put cards for people who have died. And this is one way of, a rhythmical, steady, stable way, honoring death and honoring these individuals. I write their name and then I find an image out of a collection of photos. And that reminds me of them or makes me think that's what their spirit is, whether it's a flower or a mountain. And then we hold a bonfire in January and burn them with respect and honor. And it's quite powerful.

You could see that if you didn't burn them once a year, the altar would get very, very crowded. And it does get more crowded towards the end of the year. And I find that a very helpful reminder again also about impermanence and just how the world actually is. Now I wanted to add a little postscript about what gets in the way of remembering those things. And it's often the things that distract us. So there's a lot out here now about distraction, about electronics, about you know all the ways that we jump to the interruption and we think the interruption is more important than the steady path that we've been walking. So this now is what takes what you said discipline to observe in ourselves, in our society, simple things like agreeing not to have your phones at the table at dinner. Something that simple. You're not going to look up the weather. You're not going to look up some comment that somebody made. You're going to stay in the present moment with that person. So I find that this is a new area of mindfulness, we should say, that we didn't really worry about so much 30 years ago because people didn't have cell phones.

But now the attention economy, maybe you've spoken on about this on the program is riveted around how to steal our attention and use it to make profit. So that consumer society is ever ready to grab you away from something that wasn't costing you anything. And I think this is a particularly good focal point across the holidays. And you've already made it through Christmas or whatever other holidays you celebrate or don't celebrate.

So January is a time to return again to your disciplines, to manage those distractions and manage the stability of your own presence in your own life. I just can't emphasize this enough because I've I find it a personal struggle. What time of day to be online, how long to be online, how quickly to answer texts. People have so many different expectations.

So social pressures digitally are actually distracting us from some of the more important things we do want to pay attention to. So I just encourage people, use this month to do a kind of natural personal review of habits. January is the perfect time for this. And you can probably pick up some new ways of managing your phone. The most recent one I heard was like, leave it plugged in as if it were a landline and only use it where you leave where its home base is. Well that would change some things wouldn't it? Or don't bring it into the bedroom etc. We could talk about this a long time but this is more an example of using January as a time to renew practices that support a stable life where your attention span is useful for you know more important things like climate change, for example.

Panu: That's marvelous and highly useful. In history, often when there's been important topics where discipline is needed, some kind of spiritual orders have been born to cherish that discipline. So I don't know if somebody has already set up a sort of order of, you know modesty and wisdom in cell phone use or something that this will give me something to Google later on but only to a certain amount I won't be Googling the whole evening. And so we are now in January probably when this episode comes out we are recording this at the end of November. So one nice practice that you could try listeners if you want to and I know that many of you already do this is to think about rituals for the seasons and the special times of the year. There's a great British author, Glennie Kindred, whose book, Celebrations, has been an inspiration for me in that regard this year. She advocates for the eight sort of marker days, socials disease and equinoxes, but also the days in between and setting up some kind of physical places of remembrance for them or doing some kind of activities, perhaps even small rituals. that has been very interesting. Together with colleagues we have been experimenting with various types of these and I would encourage folks to think about what might that be in your time and place.

Kaza: You know, I will add to that that we have come up with a practice on the major holidays, aside from the solstices and the equinoxes and the cross-quarter days, things like Thanksgiving, New Year's Day, Christmas, to go out for a walk in the morning, a long nature walk, and remember the Earth before there were human holidays. Kind of get your time scale correct. You can then go have your Thanksgiving dinner or your, you know, Valentine's Day, whatever, but on these big holidays where everybody is celebrating other things and often very filled with consumer purchasing or other celebrations to return to the world before human beings. It's a good exercise for the mind.

Doherty: Lovely. Yeah, this is really great. I, you know, we always talk, consider what we're going to talk about. And then once we have it, once we have a theme, it kind of does, it does bring us together. And so yeah, what we're talking about is, you know, the underlying thing for a lot of this podcast is environmental identity and our sense of our own identity in relation to nature and the natural world and all these, all these kind of recollective practices of back to the seasons and to the time and to observation. They help us. They help us to get in touch with that identity. know, Stephanie, you're so eloquent. You know, the people like Stephanie, who are scholars and writers and spiritual leaders, can just environmentally just environmentally dangerous, rolls off your tongue. Like everything you talk about is just it's a very expressive. But for regular people, we have to sort of, you know, we have to sort of make this up as we go along.

But yeah, I know. Practically, this comes down to these practices like I think having your set of holidays, that's an underlying theme from this from this. This episode, society has all of these different holidays and culture has all these different holidays or holy days, some of which are commercial, some of which are ancient. But you know, having your own, you know, set that's underneath that for yourself. And I know for me, discovering the Celtic the Celtic seasonal round was my life changed from you know after that and it helped me to understand Catholicism and my early childhood and you know even knowing that Bridges Day exists You know the groundhog day, you know where the seeds are germinating under the ground even when the snow covers the ground Just having that is so anchoring, you know, so that solstice to bridges day, you know period is what we're talking about now

So listeners, yeah, you want to think about your holidays under the holidays, you know, in the sense of yes, there's Christmas and all these commercialized holidays, but underneath that there's ancient, very, very ancient practices that eventually go to the first humans. And so I think that's what we're that's what we're channeling. That's what we're channeling here.

Kaza: You know, we should really bring out the point that to just do this individually might be a little lonely. And so I would really encourage people to find a community, even of several people, because one of the things we most need today in terms of the climate crisis is to know what communities we're part of and to support them and to do things with them. You know, be out in the streets with them or have the dinner parties or the bonfires with them.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kaza: And we lost a lot of ground during the pandemic and we're still catching up. So great compassion for the planetary peoples on how to reclaim those public civil spaces that really nourish us because they're in person. They're our whole bodies. We get to see people's hearts and feet and hats and you don't get that, you know, on a screen. So doing things in community to reinforce these—the holidays, the rituals, the shared love of the planet. This is incredibly important and it sometimes takes a bit of sleuthing. These communities don't just show up on your doorstep and sometimes a bit of experimenting. I mean, I've gone to a number of Buddhist communities, for example, and very often it's just not quite the right fit. And I don't always know. But when you keep exploring, sooner or later you find a group you can really, you should and want to invest in because they will become companions for you in approaching more difficult aspects of the world to come. So I don't have any specific ideas or recommendations whether this is an emergency preparedness group or a singing group. But some way that you're parts of communities where the people care about each other.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Kaza: I just think this is incredibly important today in a world that's doing the best to separate us from each other. But the human heart still really wants to be with people and wants to have someone to love. tribally, we're made to be social. So let's keep that as a really important part of how we start in the new year. Who are our communities?

Panu: That's wonderful and sometimes if we just manage to open our hearts it may be that the tribe finds us. it may go that way also. Stephanie, if listeners would like to engage more with your thoughts and texts and other stuff, so what would you recommend? What could people find?

Kaza: Well, the recent books are probably the best immediate option. My book called Green Buddhism, which takes an ecological and natural history perspective and combines it with Buddhist thought. Or the tree book, Conversations with Trees, is the current title. It came out again on the 30-year anniversary or 25-year anniversary. But I would also recommend a book by Joanna Macy, World as Lover, World as Self. And the third edition of that, I was the editor for and worked very closely with Joanna on it. So I feel like in some ways it represents some of my thought as well. And if you are particularly interested in Joanna, I edited what we call a festrift honoring volume of her called A Wild Love for the World. And I wrote the introductions and so on. And it's a good global view of her life over time with the many different chapters from around the world. It was really a joy to work on. And I'm now working on a kind of primer of her key themes and major ideas and hopefully that will come out in a year or something like that. It takes a while to make a book. But those will give you some ideas of what I've been up to and there's many articles out there as well and on occasion I do more interviews like this so I'm happy to always speak with people who are looking for companionship on this journey.

Doherty: Lovely. I will.

Panu: Thanks for sharing those and that primer project might be a good topic for re-inviting you and talk more about your close cooperation with Macy and the work that reconnects, so something perhaps for the future. As always, would be so much more to talk about, but time is running, we try to keep this at roughly 30 minutes. Thomas, over to you.

Doherty: Yeah, definitely. Thanks so much for joining us. is really a lovely conversation, really restorative, really refreshing. And that last point listeners about balancing, I would say we could say don't do it alone. But what I would what I would maybe reframe that as is balance the value of solitude with the value of community. And, you know, each of you know what you need.

But one of the risks here for you know, eco anxiety and kind of unprocessed grief is isolation. So for many of these seasonal rituals, bringing your friends like I call my eco friends in my book, you know, the people that really get it and really you understand they understand you, you understand them. That's really key. Or your children or your family. There's natural groupings here.

And it's OK to be alone on a journey for a while, but you will. I think all of us can attest we will find our tribe if you keep if you keep looking. So don't do it alone unless you really want to do it alone. but really savor this season. Panu and Stephanie, thank you so much for the conversation and everyone be well.

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image credit | **Nenad Radojčić**

S5 E8: A Manifesto for Flourishing Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Season 5, Episode 8: A Manifesto for Flourishing

Thomas and Panu reflected on the end of the year and the winter season. They invited listeners with some provocative questions: “What does the Earth in me need?” “How to care for your Soul in a world and systems that are soulless?” “How to honor fatigue after a tough year?” “How to keep an open mind, an open heart, open breath, and open hands?” And the podcast’s theme question: “How to be happy, ethically, in the modern world?” Panu talked about his explorations with somatic therapy and breathing exercises. Thomas read a selection—“A Manifesto for Flourishing" (at minute 22:30)—from his new book Surviving Climate Anxiety. Join us for an honest and uplifting episode.

Links

• Anmol Irfan (December 15, 2025) Climate Conservationists Push for People to Live with Nature Rather Than Against It
• Thomas reads from his new book in January 2026:
• Free online reading with the Good Grief Network on January 13, 2026 (12:00 - 1:30 PM Eastern)
• In person at Third Place Books in Seattle Washington on January 15, 2026

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to climate change and happiness. This is our podcast to show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change, particularly their emotional responses and what it means to be happy in the modern world. That's our mission to stop and think about this. And as you might remember, Panu and I met some years ago, both inspired by these questions and Panu is in Helsinki and I am typically in Portland, Oregon, but today I'm in New York. So we have this international dialogue and it's toward the end of the year 2025 and we're beginning to take stock of our personal lives and our work and the state of the world. And so I invite you, we invite you all to do the same. And that's where we are today in our conversation. Panu, you've been busy. What are some of the highlights of your activities recently in your work on climate change, climate emotions, teaching, writing?

Pihkala: Yes, nice to be discussing with you, Thomas. It's been a while. We were busy recording episodes at the beginning of the autumn and now it's been a sort of recording break. In Finland, many things have been happening as usual. There's been some more events on climate emotions compared to what it was like a couple of years ago. Not as much attention as we had before the COVID-19 pandemic, but some movement towards that. But generally in Finland, of course, there's lot of worry about military aggression near Europe. So that's on a lot of people's minds. And some very direct consequences of that are happening in my life also. In a couple of days, I'll be going to military rehearsal of six days. The Finnish system is so that the military consists of reserves and then they try to find suitable positions for people depending on their professions and expertise and so on. So there's been some nice facilitation and also an effort to slow down its November end of the year what the Celts used to call Samhain and this period of the leaves falling from the trees and bare in choirs as Shakespeare put it, invites for some reflection. But I've realized that you've been also quite busy, Thomas, lately.

Doherty: Yeah, I've been identifying with the autumn and the changing of the seasons myself. yeah, so again, this is I was in a yoga. I was doing a yoga class here recently and trying to take care of myself physically. And I was really had this insight about kind of taking care of the earth within me. You know, it was a nice way to think about health is that when we take up when we take care of our own health, we're taking care of the earth within us the earth in a side of us. And, you know, because yes, there's this little more sluggish energy that that can happen toward this time of the year. As the days get shorter, and the weather gets colder. And we have to we have to warm ourselves and we have to bring our energy out. So yeah, so listeners, you can think about how how you're feeling in terms of the earth in you. We get so caught up in our heads and into politics and global events that sometimes it's easy for that basic lived experience, our mind and body get to get lost. And yeah, for me, I have been traveling, my book came out in October. I'm doing some media and talking to people and trying to essentially sell the book and share it, share it around. So it's a lot of it's a lot of marketing experiences, which isn't necessarily my favorite activity. So there's been a sense of I know, for me a sense of feeling unrooted a little bit. I think we might have talked about that old story, you know, from the 19th century where the Explorer was in Africa, traveling and have had the native porters carrying all their gear and then the traveler wanted to keep going and the porters wanted to stop and traveler was saying what's why do need to stop and the porters said, well, we're waiting for our souls to catch up to us, you know, and so I feel like there's a little bit of that, you know, catching up. with ourselves.

Pihkala: Seriously.

Doherty: Yeah, exactly.

Pihkala: Thanks for sharing that and that would be a nice metaphor for the industrialized world also. It really should wait for its soul to catch up.

Doherty: Yeah, well, lot of modern world is soul-less, right? It's not about the soul. It's about products and product productivity and the luxury of the soul is not there. Or it's commodified. Or some people have the luxury to work on that while others are just doing basic survival. So yeah, yeah. So I think a couple of themes for our talk.

What does it what does it mean to be happy? And how do we come back to our to our happiness? And what does it mean to flourish? And also, you know, the long haul nature of this, I think, some of the things I've seen about climate change and policy and the news lately has been about fatigue, public fatigue on working on these issues. And, of course, because there's so much resistance and so much injustice in the world. Just bearing witness to all of that, particularly in the United States, we've had a really tough time in the United States, a lot of problems with the US government and dysfunction and injustice. And, you know, it's just fatiguing to sit with all of that. And, you know, what does it mean to come back to the to our values and our energy and things like that?

Pihkala: Yeah, and growingly the situation is called something like the polycrisis, the many interlapping and interacting crises which we are facing. And in addition to eco emotions and climate emotions, I find myself more often on speaking assignments talking about polycrisis emotions and sometimes one aspect or facit of the crisis is more at the forefront than sometimes others. So, lots of compassion and determination for the caring folks in the US. And at the same time, when we are discussing these things which are on our minds at this time of the year and in our lives, we are sort of journeying with the part four of Thomas's book, Surviving Climate Anxiety.

We've done a couple of podcast episodes on the book, mostly about part one and part two, which were coping and identity. Then there's part three, healing, which is also much about anxiety and grief and despair and the power of place and so on that resonates with a lot of teams in this podcast. As does the whole book actually, so it's sort of extended version and a lot of creativity around the themes which we often discuss here. when we take a look at part four, Thomas, what's on your mind?

Doherty: Yeah. Well, the part four is called flourishing and that's it's sort of like after you spend time with your grief and loss and your basic coping and your environmental values, you know, what does it mean to you know, what would it mean to be happy and thrive in a life as I say in the book, you know, with an open mind, open heart, open breath and open hands. And so, you know, the open mind is being flexible and patient and continuing to have a growth mindset and learn. And then you know, the open heart is this capacity to take in all the good stuff and the bad stuff. And that's the challenge. If we as we've talked about again and again, most of the news everybody gets about climate change is negative, not the positive stuff. And it can feel grim. So you've got to really work hard to take in the good. And then when I say open breath, You know, that's really literally like breathing being in our body. And all of that sort of stuff.

You know, listeners, you can just even just now just take a breath like Pana is doing, you know, just you know, because it's easy for our breath to get tight. You know, this whole idea like I talked about earlier, the earth in me, you know, the earth in me needs open breath, it needs oxygen. And then open breath also stands in for mindfulness and being present in the present moment. And then open hands. That's kind of like. Well, I think that's a neat metaphor too, because my hands are open. That means I can grasp things and I could pick up things and I can collect things. You know, my hands are closed kind of in a fist or something like that. You know, I can't, you know, really. So, you know, so open hands, that’s sort of the general big big picture for that chapter.

Pihkala: Opening up and being open. As a very literal example from my personal life this autumn has been that I've been learning stuff with a somatic, therapeutic person and it's been nice to experiment with sort of primitive and random type of breathing.

Doherty: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Pihkala: For many years I've sometimes done this count to something type of breathing like the 5, 6, 7 method is one version of that but I hadn't really done this even more primitive and more varied style and it's really helpful I find so just sharing a very practical example of something which in my case has enabled more openness.

Doherty: And what is it tell me about the practice it how is it more varied like what's an example.

Pihkala: Well, yeah, there's many ways in which one can use it, for example, really pushing the air out from your lungs. And then also breathing in very deeply so that you can feel also the upper corners of your lungs filling up and then doing that in a—not always in a rhythmic fashion, so that also helps with the muscles near the chest if they have some tightness as often happens for people like me who work a lot with laptops in addition to being outdoors.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah. So doing that, you know, even in the yoga class that I was describing earlier, you know, sometimes, you know, the class will encourage people just to, you know, really like let it out. That primal that primal sound can be really releasing and then eventually, usually, will then tone itself to more of a, you know, when you get through it, but first of all, you got to just go and get all that out. So yeah, well, I read about screaming therapy comes and goes, but every 10 years, people rediscover it as a therapeutic thing. But I just saw an article in the New York Times about screaming therapy. And so that's another version of this primal, the primal scream. It's just it's essentially just like letting go of control to let our body express itself as it wants to.

Pihkala: Yeah, and listeners, can find an earlier episode of this podcast where we discuss Primal Scream in connection with a Finnish campaign around shouting your difficult ego emotions out. Yeah, something like two or even two and a half, three years ago, it's been a while that we have been doing this. So that's one aspect related to—

Doherty: Yeah, the shouting man.

Pihkala: —flourishing and keeping it flowing and under that part four there is a chapter on spirit also and well the etymological roots of spirit in many languages are literally related to breaths and breathing so we are dealing with some fundamental stuff here.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. we've got the primal stuff in your body. then I think, you know, part of the book in the chapter on happiness, you know, describes some case studies of people and families. And what does it mean to like on a mundane day to day level schedule your life such that you can like—particularly if you're in a in a in a family with parents and children or whatever—you've got to schedule all of your activities and try to balance your needs and the family's needs and, and your needs for work. And so some of this, you know, really comes down to how we take care of ourselves day to day. And there's this whole permission to allow yourself to be happy. That's another big, big piece that that that is underlying this. Because even if part of us wants to be happy, there's another part of us that might say we don't have permission to be happy.

And that's a really helpful thing for people to think about because in there are many ways many activists kind of sayings and things that's basically safe. If one person isn't free, none are free, or if one person is suffering, all of us are suffering. And so when we're aware of suffering in the world and injustice, as a way of being in solidarity with those people that are suffering or as bearing witness, sometimes it precludes the sense that we can be happy. We're not allowed to be happy or there's a guilt or shame placed on that because of a privilege or something. So that kind of messes with our ability to just be happy. And that there's two ways to deal with that. One is to just ignore all the other stuff and just be happy and just put it out of your mind. And say, you know, just don't think about that right now. Let's just be in the moment.

And that's I mean, I do that myself, you know, I'll say Thomas just let's not look at the news and think about this. It's a beautiful day. The winds blowing and the trees and the leaves are falling or whatever and let it just be here now and that so there's kind of a pushing that away. You know, the meaning focused way to do it is to say, “well, yes, we're, it's okay to have multiple feelings at the same time and to bear witness to these other things while also saying that we all deserve happiness.” It's unfair to let this situation take our happiness away, particularly for young children. You we don't want them to not be happy. We want them to have a genuine life. So there are there are there are a couple ways to deal with this, I think. But the latter is really more about finding ethical happiness that I can be doing my best and following my values and my ethics. And you know, if I have a good day and I work hard, I should be able to enjoy the fruits of my labor with my friends or celebrate my work or other people's work. And it's not fair. It's not a healthy coping skill to put all of our pleasure aside and just feel guilty and sad all of the time. That's, but you can't force people to feel things they have to they have to navigate this themselves.

Pihkala: Yeah, much resonating with what you say and even though one can't force things, at least one can invite others to think about how they are negotiating climate guilt, for example, or feelings of not being able to be enough. This Rittamättö myyydentone in Finnish, which we have been discussing sometimes also in this podcast. And it can be complex. Sometimes people can then feel guilt about not being able to get rid of guilt. So getting rid of those vicious circles and loops would be important to be able to start. Start over and you have a sub-chapter on relationships in that part of the book and of course the social dynamic is very crucial here as you say and if one can find acceptance from trusted others. It greatly helps in this negotiation of guilt and happiness, I think.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, one of the cases in the in the book, Sam and Liberty, a couple, you know, they were struggling, Liberty was wanting them to enjoy life, you know, what's the point of being alive if I can't live fully. And Sam was more stuck on ethics and the right thing to do. And you know, in this in the story, Sam came around to the idea that he didn't have to choose between being ethical and experiencing joy. Like that's a false. That's a false dichotomy, a false choice, you know, and so the idea that ethical flourishing means, you know, happiness in line with your values, that your good feelings need to make sense within your within your ethics and not just it basically your good feelings need to make sense in terms of your ethics, not just your ego. So it's not just pleasure. So it's not about disavowal of knowledge and responsibility about climate change or injustice, but or suppressing.

Pihkala: Basically. Hmm.

Doherty: But it's about appreciating the good things honestly and in the present moment while also having an awareness that things could be much better. So that gratitude and satisfaction have a place alongside moments of outrage and anger. So it's really a both and instead of an either or. And it takes a lot. It takes a lot of work. That's another thing I came up with my colleague Ariana. Ariana and I are working on an editorial about the modern times and coping and you know that we need to pull on our best selves when we're feeling the worst. You know, it really is. It is this ethical challenge. It's a challenge to aspire to. Have you had any moments lately yourself where you've felt you had a balance between your, because I know you're highly aware of the state of the world and if you're left to your own devices, you'd probably be pretty morose about it all. So, but have you had any times to sort of where you balanced some of that reality, cold reality with positive feelings?

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for asking and that idea of being able to feel many things and many emotions and sometimes almost at once or at least at close sequence with each other. So that's very important also. And generally I just tend to practice a sort of existentialist type of acceptance, so sort of accepting that it's going to be flawed anyway and it's going to be okay anyway. It easily leads towards this sort of accepting ambiguity and sometimes even paradoxically just keeping on going even though it's so complex and there's always multiple viewpoints that one might take to to a situation. In my life and view it's of course also closely related to all the spiritual and religious background and then those dynamics. And I was happy that you have a chapter on spirits in the book and you discuss also many aspects related to religion and various spiritualities.

Doherty: Yeah. Well spirituality is a major calling card in this work and I find it's a it's an entry point to many people. Even the people here in New York that I've been talking to in the city. The spiritual angle is actually a very common one for people. Yeah. You know I have a manifesto for flourishing I call it in the book. You know it's this little kind of a self affirmation that you could say around being happy that, you know, sort of a realistic scenario that I challenged the reader to, to take on. I could read and go over that a little bit right now.

Pihkala: Yeah, I was just about to ask that that would be very interesting.

Doherty:

Yeah. So let's do that. And so this will be a little bit the way I present this in in in public as I do it, I presented as a little validation exercise, a visualization. So I usually ask people to become quiet and to go inward a little bit and have comfortable close their eyes and, and take some deep breaths and just just listen. It lends itself to listening to and being being kind of entertained verbally. So I'll do that right now. You know, it's a statement that summarizes what flourishing in an era of climate crisis can look like.

And you know, the goal is to imagine the scenario for your life. So listeners, can, if you're able to, in in your listening situation, if you can close your eyes, that's helpful. But otherwise, just take this in deeply and listen as I speak. And again, taking a couple deep breaths. Maybe making some sounds like Panu was talking about, you know, you know, get some air out.

Yeah, good clean breaths and then just settled in and I'll just read this.

I carry the weight of climate change on my shoulders. I feel anxious about the heat of the summer, the air quality, the winter storms, and the future. My internal alarm systems are going off all the time. But I can take a step back and acknowledge this: I'm conscious of how I'm thinking about the world and maintaining a growth mindset. I'm prepared to discover things are much worse than I thought. But also at times better.

I'm practicing emotional intelligence. I stop and ask myself what I'm feeling and also what feelings I want to have and to cultivate and grow stronger. I remind myself that sustainability begins with my own foundation of personal health. I'm strengthening my relaxation response so it can balance my stress response. I know that if I feel hurt about the state of the environment, it is a signal that I car

I remind myself that climate change is not my fault. Even as I take on responsibility, I understand that forces of power, nationalism, and unregulated commerce are driving much of Earth's systemic troubles. Even as I feel like a hostage to dangerous forces, I focus on what I can control. I remind myself that political systems are created by people and they can be changed.

When the media announces new threats, I remind myself, I already know. I might not know every detail of the story, but I am familiar with the larger narrative. Nature is not just a place outside of me. I am nature. I have a unique environmental identity and a set of experiences and values that gives me a place to stand on the planet. Even as I am part of the web of life, I am also weaving it.

Even as I struggle with feelings of fear and eco anxiety, I step back and see these as normal emotional responses. I know that standing up and publicly recognizing my eco anxiety is a healthy form of self-expression. Regardless of who is listening, speaking my truth out loud generates energy for action. I am a work in progress, but I have new skills and I'm building a toolkit for coping. I know I am so much bigger than my climate anxiety.

I can still feel happiness at this time.

Pihkala: Hmm. Wonderful. Thank you very much, Thomas, for reading that out loud and writing that. I believe it will be validating for many people. And to the book, it also brings an important element of sort of vulnerability or ambiguity. it's kind of different voice from all the parts where the main focus is on good things that the therapist has been able to help people with.

Doherty: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So being able to fly under our own wings and to and to just tell ourselves honestly that we're doing our best and that again, just because I care, it doesn't mean it's my fault. Right. Just because I'm aware doesn't mean I need to be sad all of the time.

Even in a disaster, literally a disaster event, there are moments of happiness as we struggle and find places of survival and help other people. So yeah, but again, it's something it's something to practice this this kind of happiness we're talking about is not something that's always spontaneous. It's something that needs to be practiced. But we can do it, we can do it. So it's you know, flourishing is ayou know, happiness is something maybe sport, spontaneous and wild, but flourishing is something that is cultivated, you know, it's something that you put effort into over time. Yeah.

Pihkala: Yeah, and I think closely related to self-acceptance and self-compassion. I was thinking of Tara Brach, the mindfulness teacher and writer at an earlier point in our talk today and her ideas of this trance of unworthiness which so easily is in people's body minds, especially in our neoliberal capitalist society is this sort of nagging sense of not being enough and then practicing self-acceptance and self-compassion as I hear you say I think is a highly, highly important matter and also counter-cultural.

Doherty: How do you mean? Yeah. How do you mean countercultural?

Pihkala: Because so much of our culture is tied with ideas that one should always be better and do better and buy or acquire more things to be more advanced and have more status, have a bigger house and more impact in your work and that kind of thing.

Doherty: Yeah.

Pihkala: It can be seen as counter-cultural to be happy with less and to practice self-acceptance.

Doherty: Yes, exactly. Yeah, the legom, you know, that that concept of legom that they have in Scandinavia, just just enough, you know, that we put when we pass around the, the horn of drink, you know, there's enough for everyone to drink from just we just get enough and we can share and yeah, yeah, something. Logom, sorry. Yeah, logom. Yeah. So yeah, so yeah, these are this that is countercultural, countercultural to maxing out and especially at the end of the year, a lot of the celebrations that at their heart are really about this gratitude and grace and just enough and enjoying what we have. It's easy to lose that in all of the sparkle and tinsel of the commercial items that are all, you know, climbing over the top of all of that stuff.

So yeah, coming back to the heart of the matter. So great conversation. It's nice checking with you Panu and remind myself of some of these things.

Pihkala: Likewise, Thomas, likewise.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So let's wrap it up. But listeners, we talked about a manifesto for flourishing a little bit today, and I shared some of that. So hopefully it's landed for you. If you're new to the podcast, that's kind of what we do. And if you've been listening, then this is where we come back. It's a long haul project here. So, Panu, good luck with your military training and all your responsibilities there. And we will speak to you again soon. Everyone be well.

Pihkala: Take care.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

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image credit | Alex Moliski

S5 E7: On Hiking and Zen with Brother Phap Luu Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Season 5, Episode 7: On Hiking and Zen with Brother Phap Luu

Thomas and Panu had a great discussion with Brother Phap Luu, a US born Buddhist monk in the Plum Village tradition, and co-author of Hiking Zen. Topics included the dynamics of hiking meditation, the role of mindfulness and Buddhist thought in an engaged and ethical life, ways to find peace amid the furor of politics and climate threats.

Links

• Phap Lu / Brother Stream
• Hiking Zen
• Dartmouth Alumni Magazine: A Monk’s Journey
• Deer Park Monastery Earth Peace Treaty Initiative
• A Simple Life: A Response to the Climate Crisis by Brother Phap Luu
• Johannes Cairns (2025) Engaged Buddhist responses to the climate crisis: Negotiations among Western Buddhist climate activists.

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to climate change and happiness. is our podcast, our show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and other environmental issues and other world issues. And we were always asking this provocative question, you know, what is where does happiness fit in and what does it mean to be happy in the modern world? And we approach this from different directions. I find that often for people at the end of the day, a spiritual, the spiritual dimension of this work is important. So that's one angle and we're going to get into that a little bit in terms of spirituality, but also just being in nature and actually experiencing directly, you know, connection and communion with the natural world. in order to explore this, we have a very special guest.

Brother Phap Luu: HI, I'm Brother Phap Luu, or Brother Stream, a monk in the Plum Village tradition, and I live at Deer Park Monastery in Southern California. And I recently co-wrote a book called Hiking Zen, Train Your Mind in Nature with one of my brothers, Brother Phap Xa. And so it's little fun stories about practicing mindfulness and meditation in nature over our backpacking retreat, specifically on the Appalachian Trail, a long seven week trip we did back in 2018.

Doherty: Yeah, I'm so glad you could join us. yeah, the part of the backstory is that a dear friend gave me a copy of Hiking Zan, Phap Luu's book this summer for my birthday in June. you know, I'm not a formal Buddhist practitioner myself, although I have been exposed to Buddhist practice and meditations and retreats and the teachings of Thich Nhat Hanh and that's like many people that's just part of my way of understanding the world. so the book was a really great reminder to me of all of that. And I was particularly intrigued by the stories about hiking on the Appalachian Trail and just the real candid stories of what it's like to be hiking and the positive sides of being in nature, but also the challenges of pacing yourself and being with a group and managing different styles and what happens when you spill hot broth on your lap, you know, on a cold rainy day around the campfire and all the real, you know, personality conflicts that can happen when you have a small group. So it was a really lovely way to think about connections with nature and how our mind works and the Buddhist Dharma. So anyway,

Brother Phap Luu: Yeah, right.

Doherty: And listeners, know, the way this works is sometimes you just have to reach out. And I actually just reached out to the, think maybe to the publisher or something to try to get a, can I get a hold of these two, one of these monks and talk to them, tell them about my book. And so here we are, we were able to connect and Phap Luu was gracious enough to join us on the podcast. Panu and Phap Luu have met now and everybody has a lot to talk about. So it's a great, it's just a great example of an international connection. So Panu, you wanna get us started in our conversation?

Panu: Warm welcome, brother Phap Luu, also on my behalf. Really a pleasure to meet you. Hiking has been an important part in my life also and spiritual walks, the dimension of spirituality in walking and hiking. there's a bunch of connections with my own life history also.

Brother Phap Luu: obviously.

Panu: Dear listeners, walking is one of those subjects which very easily become linked with the art of everyday living. sort of art of mindful walking has lots of similarities with things which are very much needed in our everyday lives also amidst the climate crisis. But before going into specifics, it would be lovely to hear something of your background. Now, of course, there's the whole story about how an American becomes a Buddhist monk and you have a video on YouTube about climate matters also and then there's all the contents related to hiking. But would you like to start by telling something about your journey towards this place and time where you are now?

Brother Phap Luu: Sure, can give a short version. I would say the shortest version is that suffering, that's why I became a monk. How do you deal with the ill being or this suffering, anxiety, fear that we experience as human beings, right? Where nobody's in control of our future and we don't seem to be very much in control of our present moment. And yet here we are experiencing this present moment. And so I, as a young person, I was exposed a lot to nature. I think that, and that together with the fact that I was not raised in a formal religious tradition, my parents who raised Catholic, they decided not to raise us Catholic. So I was not baptized. And yeah, my father had the vision that, actually, both my parents, but really my father had the vision that my sister and I could choose whatever spiritual path, I don't think he said spiritual path, he said religion, that we want to, he wanted it to be open, because that's something that he regretted very much in his own life, that he could not choose. But even that idea of choosing a religious tradition is very modern.

I don't think he necessarily blames on his parents for that. And then my father grew up hunting with my grandfather and he never liked killing animals, but he loved being in nature. so that he transmitted to me. So from a very young age, I spent lots of time with my father in the forest and I just, you know, with my whole family really, but I guess my father saw that I enjoyed it very much. So I started going more and more. I was involved in Boy Scouts in my town. And so we spent a lot of time in nature. And then I just grew up in a very, a very wild place. I mean, I wouldn't say wild, it's domesticated Connecticut, but it's, know, it's the forest have grown back and I was in a wooded place, rather isolated on the river. There was a tonic river and so I just spent a lot of time out walking in the forest, building fires as a kid and, you know, things that I that I guess I take for granted, but not everyone has necessarily nowadays. More and more of us are in urban areas growing up. And so I just had that freedom to always walk out the door and I just was fascinated with the forest and the trees and I would just throughout various epics of my life.

Later I got into running and so I was a cross country runner and track runner. And so then I would run in the state forest or town forest near where I grew up and with my dog. And so that was just a very healing experience. Also, I grew up, you know, the other thing is I was in a ski family. So we spent a lot of time in the summer. My grandfather ran a boat shop, so we had a, we were water skiers. So he goes skiing most every day in the summer. And then in the winter we were snow skiers. we'd go up to mountains in Northern Connecticut or up in New Hampshire, Vermont and beyond the snow. And so those experiences of being, know, for the first time on my own on an isolated part of the mountain with the snow. These experiences all kind of came together into dividing a kind of spiritual path for me. And it was really when I discovered Buddhism that I found a spiritual path, a tradition, which already seemed to integrate everything that I had experienced in these wild forays into nature.

Panu: Thanks a lot for sharing all that and a lot of similarities with many people who have become environmentalists of various kinds. Being already in the woods as a child and many kinds of experiences there. From personal history there's a connection also with running in the woods, I've done orientering since I was seven, know, the sports where you have a map and compass and you run through the woods. So I've always loved that. And in your book, as has been mentioned here, there's experiences from the Appalachian Trail, which sounds fabulous. I've only been there for like one one day stretch. But in our pre-conversation, I heard that you have some hiking possibilities right next to the monastery where you are living. So just setting up the context, would you like to say a bit about the place where you are living and serving, perhaps especially in relation to the modern human world?

Brother Phap Luu: Sure, sure. So I became a monk in the Plum Village tradition. I met the Master Thich Nhat Hanh on a US tour. came on in 2002, and for the first time, and then listened to his public talk and was just, I felt this is my teacher. And I also had experience with his early communities here. we call it the plum village tradition. So the first monasteries in France, he was exiled and took political asylum in France when he spoke out against the war in Vietnam in 1966. And so he built a community there eventually in the South of France. And so when I got to ask him directly to become a monk in 2003, he said, I would need to come there to ordain and it's a decision of the community. And so I was paying off my school loans and I just sent the last check in and got on a plane when I was 27 and went over to France to ordain. And it was a very fortunate time in his life trajectory because he, first of all, he opened this monastery, Deer Park in 2000 and decided to close Plum Village for three months and bring the entire community here. So that's when I first came here to Deer Park, where I live in Southern California. And yeah, I think we managed through good conditions to find this center, this valley, Chaparral Wild in the Escondido, California, where right next to a big town, wild town park, so it's many thousands of acres altogether where we have this monastery. For me, if you go to see pictures of the old early monasteries in China in the mountains, it's kind of situated like that. So I do feel it be a great center of the Buddha dharma for hundreds of years going into the future here in America. So we have that kind of vision.

And that's something that drew me to Thai as well, is that he had the vision for long term and his approach to Mother Earth and the climate crisis also had that. He recognized that we might not as human beings make it through this moment we're having on our planet. But the Mother Earth has the capacity to regenerate itself. Just like when the tiny mammals that survived the end of Cretaceous extinction, then filled in the niche that the dinosaurs left behind. so I think that the Dhamma accounts for all those things. we are, anyhow, just to come back to Deer Park, we are really looking in this long-term way and the way in which we're living in the monastery.

And so I think it's very helpful to have these guiding visions of impermanence, of non-self, of Nirvana, these kind of three, we call it dhamma seals, are the mark of true dhamma teaching. We need to look at our bodies and look at all of the innovations and creations and institutions of our human existence as impermanent. yeah, in that way, we actually live much happier in the present moment and we can transmit that to future generations. And so that's kind of what we're doing here at Deer Park. And it's the spirit of our backpacking retreats. And like you say, Panu, we've been, the book talks about the backpacking retreats on the Appalachian Trail. We've developed ones that we do straight here from the monastery because we have these thousands of acres around us. So we've been able to do a number of retreats where we start right in the monastery and we backpack right out. And there's a campsite four miles away at a lake in the town park near us and we camp there for a few nights and hike and then we camp on top of our mountain right here for a couple nights and then come back. So it's a whole week long retreat and I found that actually some of those retreats are our most powerful ones because we have the energy of practice here in the monastery to kind of hold the beginning of the retreat and then we go out into the wild.

And I've always encouraged folks as well when they come on our normal retreats, which are more sedentary, you know, in the monastery. say, not everyone calls it, I call them our sedentary retreats. Because, know, meditation is not something we assume means you have to sit still. But actually meditation is happening in action and our teacher was an exemplar of that philosophy. And so we actually, you know, in our retreats that we do here that are mobile, you know, we say mobile monastery, know, walking meditation. We're able to benefit at the beginning from the collective energy here in the monastery and then be able to go out and do this healing that we talk about in the wild that I feel is critical if we want people to understand the preciousness of what we have on this planet Earth that we cannot, I would say maybe even possibly, but not even realistically recreate on another planet, let alone like, you know, how we could recover from the increasing temperatures of our climate. You know, and then when people do get that insight.

I mean, one thing is the work we do with climate activists who are already out there, professionals, And introducing them to mindfulness so they can take care of their emotions, especially strong emotions like despair and anger that they encounter daily as climate activists. another approach is to actually activate people through bringing them in this immersive experience in nature where they realize the preciousness of what it is we have and the interconnectedness of how we are with the natural world around us so that climate activism as it were is just a natural extension of their being.

Doherty: Lovely, lovely. Yeah, Panu, I have a number of thoughts, but Panu, what are you percolating on as you're listening? As you're listening here.

Panu: Lots of things and Thich Nhat Hanh has been a major influence for Buddhists who are active in environmental matters, but of course also for people with other worldviews and religions. So just wanting to say that out explicitly as a scholar of religion and ecology. So that's the influence has been profound. And in this podcast, we've talked about Joanna Macey and the Buddhist influencing methods for engaging with our pain for the world as Macey puts it or difficult emotions and existential questions arising out of the state of the world. And Brother Phap Luu named some of these and practicing mindfulness and other spiritual practices is one important way to engage with that. So there's lots of resonances with the larger topics around environmentalism and also also eco emotions but Thomas what are you sitting with now.

Doherty: Yeah, I'm sitting with all the fruitful directions we could go on our talk and what's best for the listeners as we hold this space. I think I want to, before we're done, cycle to this idea of eco-anxiety and coping, because I think it's a really important takeaway from this work. You know, but I think, you know, what we're talking about, we had a we had a talk with Trevye Johnson a little while back, and I and our podcast and she works and helps people to to deal with damage, damaged nature because one of the paradoxes that's coming up for people. I mean, I think most people, whether they're a nature person or even just a, you know, nature curious, as you might say, or Buddhist curious, they get the idea of how it'd be interesting to do some meditation and going to go on a mind walk but lately what happens of course is that people go into nature and they notice the weather or smoke or a wildfire or degradation and then it's really like a double whammy like they they're coming in with this innocent sense of so the opening up to inter being is beautiful but it's also when you're innocent it opens you up to all this potential pain and you know the Aldo Leopold idea of, you know, seeing all the all the wounds and pains of the world. And so they're not ready for that.

So and I think it's great, you know, there's so much here, but the idea of interbeing and that we're just part of a larger lineage of history and nature. Lately, I've been inspired by some learning I've done about different plant communities and how there's the climax communities that we like. But there's also the weedy communities that spring up and after a forest fire or after a thing. And then there's also the really hardy species like cacti and stuff like that. And so now when I go into nature and I see a so called damaged place. It's not damaged to me anymore. I just realized there's just a different life regime that's living in it. So anyway, I think listeners need to realize that yes, you should in fact go do all these experiences we're talking about, but you do have to take care of yourself because it can't open you up. It can't open you up to all of these potential woundings. then I think that leads us to this idea of compassion.

you know, how do we, how are we gentle with ourselves? Cause then we feel guilty or we're, feel we're implicit in destruction of nature. And so that's probably a really juicy thing that comes up for you. Brother Phap Luu in these, in these retreats, when people are sitting and they, someone gets up and like, how do you handle that? You know, when you're a tree, when someone comes up and says, well, I feel guilty and we're, we're destroying the planet. And you know, they're in that place of powerlessness. How do you hold that space?

Brother Phap Luu: Yeah, thank you. This is really important. I feel, first of all, we have to model the change we want to be in the world, right? So as monks and nuns in our tradition, we try to live simply. So we do use computers, know, and smartphones to the extent we need to, but we try to keep it very minimal.

And, you know, we eat together, so we share a common space. We buy food together or receive food as offering. And so that reduces already our way of living on the planet. so people can see, and I think why Deer Park is growing and more young people are coming here or becoming monastic or living nearby, working on our organic farm or our new school, is that they see that we're living the change and we're also happy, right? So, I mean, people need to see that you are a happy, person. I I still have my moments. I look within and I see how difficult are the challenges we're facing, but I learned from Thay to have a resilient joy and nourish that joy on a daily basis.

So, because I know that will allow me to respond and adapt flexibly to the challenge that's coming. If I'm caught in emotions like despair and anger, I only bash things or resign myself, right? So I found that joy and happiness are emotions that allow me to have a more skillful response to these challenges.

And that's really what we need. So first is modeling for people what a happy life is despite these challenges. And the second is as a spiritual teacher, which is a role I often find myself in, I'm cognizant that I need to curate an experience for people, that I'm part of what we're doing and the Buddha was doing and Thay was doing. It's just recognizing people.

You know, we're always self-regulating, right? And so there's a space in which, you know, some people, the space in which they can self-regulate is very small. And so you need to understand that. And then there are others who their capacity is large and others who have grown their capacity over the years through their practice of mindfulness. so, you know, being mindful, you can be aware of when somebody's gone beyond their limit and, you know, okay, adjust.

And so we do that on our retreats and on our backpacking retreats. We respond in an adaptive way. If somebody goes way beyond, then sometimes they have to come off the retreat. we always have ways like backup plan B and C. Usually we try to keep it and try to adjust the group and have more energy. I always try to have people who've been on backpacking retreats before, even though they're not formally like leaders or facilitators, but they're there as support as well because they are more able to take care of their difficult emotions in the middle of a rainstorm or, know, quite often it's just the inner storm somebody's experiencing because of some psychological trauma that's coming up for them being out in nature. And, you know, then taking people also a little bit farther in so they see that I'm a big proponent of mindful walking in so-called damage spaces. We recently did a walking meditation. I was doing a book signing right here in Escondido. And so we'd started it with a one-hour walking meditation. And so we went down and walked through the transit center in Escondido. And I mean, it's really a quite developed urban area of the town.

And we walked on the bike path that went by this, the Escondido Creek, which is a big concrete slabs. mean, there's no dirt to be seen. And then we were doing mindful movements in this opening in a gate. And then a man rode by on his bike and then he rode right past us and off the bike path and on this little dirt path along a channel. And so I, when we finished the movements, I thought, well, What the heck, let's try it. And so we walked there, we followed him and we found destroyed bits of tents and debris and, you know, all kind of, know, unhoused folk had been living basically behind this shopping center on a channel, you know, on the bank, a sloping bank of a channel. And we actually came on the man and his bike and then his partner was taking a shower and one of these camping showers that they'd managed to rig up right there.

And we did walking meditation right through. mean, we respectfully asked if we could pass and, and, you know, there are other folks back there. So it was a, you know, I think that kind of experience is important for people to have, to see that what, you know, what, what, we are hiding the, the effect, the effects of our manner of living on this planet. And in order to see it, we, I feel one of the best ways is to get on our own two feet, to get out of our car bubbles, to get out of, you know, already an e-bike is better. But if you really are two feet, you know, walking the planet and also going in places where it feels a bit edgy, you know, I, I, I'm, you know, I was cognizant. was with a group of people and we're doing this together as an experience because we need to see what's there, you know, what kind of conditions people are living in on this planet.

So that's an example. think, you know, so the first thing is modeling. The second is curating the experience for others, you know, knowing that, you know, this we need to have a, you know, I'm sure you know, as a psychotherapist that you need to know where people are at and what they can handle, you know, and what we are able to bring to them in that moment.

Doherty: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Panu: Yes, thanks for sharing that. That's a profound example of daring to be with suffering. My colleague and doctoral student Johannes Kerns, who is a Finnish Buddhist, just finished his dissertation on so-called engaged Buddhism and climate action.

So engaged Buddhism meaning, Buddhist very active in social matters and often environmental matters. And one of his points was that religion can shape how people relate to suffering. So this goes back to some of your very first sentences, Brother Phap Luu, here. And in relation to monotheistic religions, I've sometimes participated in discussions about pilgrimage.

That's one way of spiritual walking and also a metaphor of life and coming from a very nature-oriented ecumenical protestant background, it's been easy to emphasize that the journey is more essential than the destination and in monotheistic framings of pilgrimage there's different variations, but I think that the idea of being present in our lives is very, very crucial instead of focusing the attention on some destination. So in my mind that comes very close to the zen hiking thing and also reminds me of many things I've heard Buddhists say so just wanted to say that out loud.

Brother Phap Luu: Yeah, and one of the themes that I hope gets transmitted through the book is this concentration on aimlessness, like learning to walk without a destination. Because if we can apply that in the moment and then we expand it out towards our whole life and start to see that a lot of the goals and so forth, the destinations that we have in life are actually there. Even if we don't explicitly have them, they are there deep in our consciousness. They've been set through our intention when we were younger. And so in order to respond reflexively, we need to let go of a lot of those, some assumed destinations or goals. I mean, if we're going to do it as a collective in all of humanity, and if we can't do it as individuals first.

Let go of our career goals and many, many things that we expect, that we need to be happy. And that's the great teaching I got from the Master Thich Nhat Hanh because he did not have much control over his own life, right? He was exiled and he had to adjust many times. And yet he remained firm in his principles and the practice of the Dharma. And so I've learned to do that as well. I mean, I've let go of all kinds of expectations that my family, my culture. But even as a monk, I can come up with all kinds of destinations that don't necessarily bring happiness to myself and others.

Doherty: Yeah, this is wonderful. As always, we could go on and we'll have to have you come back, I think, because I feel like there is some real fruitful practical directions to go. think listeners, you know, one of the biggest things with eco anxiety is really like we're talking about just letting yourself be present. There's such as omnipresent pressure to act.

Take action to change our lives to change society to fight society to fight capitalism to kind of think that we're an atlas that's going to like balance out all this structural stuff. And that is a healthy impulse. it's because it comes deeply from our values and our deepest, you know, ethical consciousness. But, you know, there's got to be a time where you just stop for a moment. I think that's the key lesson is stopping doesn't mean stopping permanently. It means being able to stop for a moment to let this down for a moment so we can just be present, because then we can decide which direction we want to go. So I think that's the paradox with eco-anxiety is you have to just accept the world as it is and accept yourself just exactly as it is with not any action at all. It's like the old meditation saying, don't just do something, sit there like that. And it's so counterintuitive because our whole nervous system is geared up.

Brother Phap Luu: Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah.

Doherty: This massive, you know, societal fight or flight response. But, you know, so that's why I think any contemplative practice, any spirituality, any kindness, you know, it's obviously there's thousands of years of depth of history in the Buddhist tradition with this, but just letting yourself take five minutes to be off the grid, off the clock, like an athlete that takes a timeout in a game doesn't mean you're not going to go back in the game.

But so anyway, that's just something for listeners to think about. But we've got to wrap up our conversation for now. But Phap Luu, what's lingering in your mind that you want to leave us with here?

Brother Phap Luu: Well, I just want to take a moment if it's okay just to honor a teacher of mine who just passed away a few days ago, Larry Ashmore, who is my earth sciences teacher and first year of high school. he would take us every class. He'd take us on a canoe trip on the Connecticut River. So we go camping in nature for a number of days. And I realized that he really modeled for us as students what it meant to be a concern and a citizen of this natural world. And I realized on his passing a couple of days ago that a lot of what's in Hiking Zen was also what he transmitted. So I just want to take, if I could, just this moment to honor his, because it's so important in our tradition to honor our teachers and all those who have transmitted to us. We are not individuals, right? We are just in a flow, a flowing stream of community.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Brother Phap Luu: And just to also in that spirit to just add to what you said, Thomas, now, which is, think, so helpful for people who are suffering and alone with the climate crisis, how important it is to connect to community. Yeah, I think if you're feeling despair, right away, connect to somebody, you know, and try to do it in person. And because the energy you get from building community.

Doherty: Hmm.

Brother Phap Luu: is so powerful, right? And it's meeting those needs that we need, that we have as human beings, that we often forget when we're fighting to save the planet. So whatever kind of community you can build with your neighbors, with friends, please do it. We need that in order to sustain the work we're doing. So thank you for calling that out.

Doherty: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and like you say co-regulate and curate so I think it's not it's not just because communities can be actually negative too and sometimes you get a bunch of scared Stressed out people they can go in a negative doom spiral so I think it's that connect and also co-regulate and like you like you say like try to see when people when someone neither yourself or someone else is just beyond your comfort zone and so that that that co-regulation I would say is is part of it. We'll wrap up here in a moment and let Phap Luu close us out but I just want to say Hiking Zen the book that, Phap Luu and Phap Xa, you know, co-wrote Hiking Zen, and Train Your Mind in Nature, Parallax Press. It's just a nice, it's a nice little pocket sized book, even if you're a long time devotee of, you know, Buddhism or Thich Nhat Hanh. It's a great, like for me, it was a great refresher course in reminding me of these, of these things in my daily life. And so, and I'm, just validated because I just wrote this book, you know, surviving climate anxiety. And so there's a lot of validation when I meet someone like Phap Luu and realize, okay, my thoughts aren't that far off from other other people's thoughts. So that makes me feel good. So Yeah, Panu why don't you Leave us with some final thoughts and we'll close off this episode here.

Panu: Warm thanks, Brother Phap Luu. It's been a delight and hopefully we'll get a chance to continue the conversation sometime. As a Finn, I was very delighted to hear that the monastery even has a sauna. So it must be a very good place and it may have a sauna, I'm not completely sure.

Doherty: yeah.

Brother Phap Luu: Yeah, it's a little bit secret.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah.

Brother Phap Luu: No, no, it's just because it's still these lingering ideas that a sauna is something like luxurious. But I take the Finnish attitude that it's the doctor, right?

Panu: Yeah, it's a place for healing and social connection and can be made from wood in a very almost ascetic fashion of course you get all kinds these days and the listeners will put links to also talks by Brother Phap Luu and you can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com warm thanks to everybody who supports us at Patreon and Please do take care amidst your lives wherever you are. thanks.

Doherty: Yeah, so Brother Phap Luu and Panu, listeners, everyone, be well.

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S5 E6: New Options for Meetings and Travel with Josh Gutwill and Sue Allen Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Season 5, Episode 6: New Options for Meetings & Travel with Josh Gutwill & Sue Allen

As the end of the year and traditional holiday travel calls, many also consider the social and environmental impacts of traveling. One area where people can have control over required travel is in the structure of business and academic meetings. Thomas and Panu spoke with Josh Gutwill & Sue Allen of the Clean Conferencing Institute about new, positive trends in virtual and hybrid meetings. Many lessons have been learned since the rapid, sometimes awkward transition online during the COVID era. Beyond the environmental benefits, one clear finding is that using up-to-date online platforms makes it easier for a wider range of people to participate and contribute who might otherwise face barriers in traditional meeting settings.

Links

• Clean Conferencing Institute
• LinkedIn

• Three Pillars of Virtual Conferencing

• Priya Parker 2018 The Art of Gathering: How We Meet and Why It Matters

• Guetter et al 2022 In-person vs. virtual conferences: Lessons learned and how to take advantage of the best of both worlds. American Journal of Surgery
• Rocio Joo et al 2022 Ten simple rules to host an inclusive conference. PLOS Computational Biology
• Richard Parncutt 2025 The global multi-hub conference: Inclusion, sustainability, and academic politics. Sustainable Futures.

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I’m Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Thomas: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is our podcast. This is a show for people around the world who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and other environmental issues in the state of the world and how they can be their best self. we talk about what that means for us in our personal lives and our professional lives. And one of the things we've had on this podcast either formally or in the background, quite a number of times is travel and our sense of our own carbon footprint and how our lifestyles and behaviors weigh on the planet and what are the ethics of this. I know this is something listeners you all think about in many many ways and one of the ways that comes up is in travel and going to meetings and business meetings or professional or personal things and so we're going to get into that today with some specialists that we know that work around creative ways for people to get together in the world. So that's our focus today. We're not going to solve this. These are big systemic problems. not going to solve them, but we're going to get into some kind of interesting and some of the rare kind of optimistic and interesting parts of this conversation. So to that end, I'm really proud to have two special guests with us.

Sue: I'm Sue Allen and I'm coming to you from the beautiful state of Maine and I'm a co-director of the Clean Conferencing Institute.

Josh: Hello, my name is Josh and I'm coming from Berkeley, California and I am the other co-director of the Clean Conferencing Institute and it's a pleasure to be with you today.

Thomas: Yes, and I've got a chance to meet and present with Josh and meet Sue and, you know, as a someone who goes to academic conferences, I've been really personally pushing on the American Psychological Association, specifically one of my home organizations to think about their carbon footprint. And, you know, it's a massive kind of missing area and a lot of big academic conferences. So it's an area of kind of activism for me, but it's also there's a lot of neat technology and there's a lot of neat ways to work this. So we're going to talk to Sue and Josh about their work and their backgrounds today. Panu, do you want to get us started?

Panu: Warm welcome to you and also on my behalf. Lovely to meet you and working in academia. This is a topic that has been increasingly present, sometimes explicitly and sometimes implicitly. It may not be easy for academic institutions to really honestly take a look at travel systems and their environmental impact and so on. But before going into that, it would be very interesting to hear something about your journeys towards being so much involved with these kinds of matters. So would you like to share something about that, perhaps starting from Sue again?

Sue: Yeah, thank you. So I started out as a physicist and got into education pretty early in my career. And I fell in love with the Exploratorium in San Francisco, a wonderful hands-on science museum started by Frank Oppenheimer. And his approach was always he and his brother, of course, were very involved in the development of the atomic bomb. And they became very concerned that the fate of the world rested in the hands of the public and the public's understanding of science in particular. So they really tried to further that goal and so created this very, at the time, innovative place where the public could come in and learn science in a really hands-on interactive way. And so I've spent the rest of my life doing science education and science education research with the goal of trying to help the public be less afraid of science, less intimidated and really engaged in ways that they feel they can understand and make good decisions.

Josh: Yeah, and I had kind of a similar path. and we actually met in graduate school where we were learning to be educational researchers and cognitive scientists, sort of applying scientific approaches and ideas to the study of learning. Soon after, Sue went to the Exploratorium. She was a little ahead of me in school, and then I graduated, and I, a few years later, joined her at the Exploratorium and spent a 25-year career there studying how people learn science outside of school. And there, most of the learning that happens at the Exploratorium is interactive with exhibits. So groups are trying to use an exhibit to try to figure something out, to do a little bit of science themselves. And it turns out that the design of those exhibits is key to that process. Thinking about the user interface and the user experience is very important for people to be able to walk up to a new exhibit that they've never seen before and just start getting going and engage in a scientific inquiry process where they figure something out for themselves. And I think that work that both Sue and I did for many years in thinking about how do we foster a social learning experience where people can interact with each other and maybe with something else, in this case an exhibit at the museum, how do we set that up in a way that just sort of frees people to engage their own creativity and their own thought process? I think that has really helped us in shifting over into virtual conferencing and helping people interact with each other in a social, professional learning environment like a conference.

Thomas: That's fascinating and I think it's yeah, number of directions will go today but I think, you know, one of the my big learnings and as a psychologist was interacting with people who work in museums and zoos and aquaria and realizing all the work that happens in those public learning spaces that are just kind of taken for granted. But it's very, very, very mindful. And I know we'll jump to the clean conferencing. I think we all know it was done because of ethics and sustainability and various things. But let's actually go back first, Often we talk about people's early experiences. So I wonder if either you have early experiences in your family or childhood or where you grew up or in younger life, that kind of predisposed you to kind of be interested in all of this sort of stuff. This idea of environmental identity we talk about a lot in our eco timeline. So when you think back on your life timelines, are there precursors that that kind of you know indicated that you might be heading along this path as an adult?

Sue: Well, one of the things that happened for me in my childhood, I was lucky enough to grow up in Sydney in Australia and I spent a lot of my young years in the back garden with a butterfly net collecting insects and discovering the incredible diversity of living things and just falling in love with that world. And a few years later, another pivotal experience I remember was being in science class and looking at

Thomas: Hmm.

Sue: A textbook that had a graph of the population of the world and it was going up pretty much exponentially at that time. This was some years ago, of course it's leveled somewhat, but I remember thinking, oh, this is not good. So that combination of the sheer joy and the concern, I think started very young.

Thomas: Mm-hmm.

Josh: I think for me it probably came a little bit later, the early experience, I think, for me was around snow. So I grew up in Massachusetts and my mother got us involved in cross-country skiing very early. And I remember the blizzard of 1978 where I think we got like four or five feet in a few days and school was closed for two weeks and we had to ski everywhere. And it was just magic. I mean, it was just incredible. It was such an amazing experience. we dug tunnels in the front yard, inside the snow and all that. And then as I got older and particularly came out to California and by then had learned to downhill ski and was really into skiing and snowboarding.

Just seeing how many years were going by in California where there was a drought or it was raining in the Tahoe area in the mountains instead of snowing because the temperatures were too high. And just really feeling the loss of that, just feeling like, we're not, this activity is going away. We may not be able to do this anymore. I was also really inspired by my sister-in-law, her name is Carla Wise, and she became a real climate activist about 20 years ago and dedicated herself to it full-time and actually wrote a book called Awake on Earth about facing climate change and how to live with it. And so just lots of conversations with her and became really inspired to get involved in this work somehow if I could.

Thomas: Yeah, lots of neat background as always. Panu, what are you thinking over there? I mean, when you're hearing some of this stuff and how does this Sue and Josh's experience jive with your experience and what you've been learning about people?

Panu: Thanks for sharing, very interesting to hear. After working quite a lot with environmental education and psychology, there's lots of elements in what you say which are influential for people, having a chance to do something directly with the modern human world, whether it's butterflies or some other elements and connection with the seasons and having outdoor hobbies for recreation and also I hear you testify to how environmental change affects these kinds of activities and that's for many people, a growing number of people a pathway to climate matters. And for example in Finland there's lots of winter sports people participating in Protect Our Winters movements which is related to to climate change and emissions. As a Finn, I of course love the image of somebody skiing to the school. So that's what the generation of my parents still did in many places. Not in Helsinki, but in many places. This is also related to the topic of habits. That's course something which is very influential for people's behavior. And that might form a bridge to the topic of online conferencing because the way I see it, it was just a very

Thomas: Mm-hmm.

Panu: strong habits in academia also to have meetings in person and only when COVID-19 came people then realized sometimes relatively quickly that hey actually there's a lot of meetings which can be very easily done online but we just hadn't been doing that but would you like to share something about how did you then end up on this field and what did you start to do?

Josh: Yeah, sure. Back in 2016, actually, before COVID, I was flying across the country from California to Florida for a conference, and I was reading a climate change book all about what's happening to our climate and how things are shifting. And part of the book was asking about what we can all do. And I was thinking, well, what do I do that emits a lot of carbon dioxide? And realizing I go to conferences four or five times a year. And I kind of resolved on that flight to see if there was something I could do differently. And when I landed, and this is a large conference, but I sought out the president of a small association that I also attend every year whose conference I also attend and asked her about the idea of could we zoom people in to that in-person conference? And I didn't know the term hybrid conference, and maybe I don't even know how much people were using that term back in 2016, but we started talking about how it would be so good for the association to get more people to come to the conference. And I think because of my experience at the Exploratorium and all the work I've been doing on social learning, I said to her, I really want to focus on the networking parts of it. Like it seems really easy to zoom people in to hear a talk, but how do we get people at home to interact with the people at the conference? What can we do? And she said, this sounds great. Why don't you join the board of this small but mighty association and start a team to do this. And so I did and we started the Green Team and for several years and Sue joined the Green Team and for several years, we and I don't know, maybe half a dozen others before COVID worked on bringing people into the conference from home. And we had folks, we weren't selling this product or anything. We were just prototyping inviting people to try with us and see what happened. And we did crazy things that didn't work at all, know, having people join the coffee break from home and you know, there's this buzzing, loud coffee break going on and we would wave people over to the iPad and say, talk to someone at home, you know, and try to that, have people interact that way. But it got us really thinking hard about it.

Thomas: Hmm.

Josh: How do you get people to interact with each other in a networking kind of environment, virtually? We were pretty well positioned when the pandemic hit to pivot at that association to a virtual conference that would not just be an endless series of webinars, know, of talks, just one after another, deadly, dull.

Thomas: Hmm.

Josh: but would have these interactive sessions as well where people could mix and mingle.

Thomas: Mm.

Sue: So I think people were actually traumatized by COVID. Of course, in many ways, the pandemic was traumatizing. But one of the ways that it was traumatizing, we run into when we talk to people and they say, what do you do at the Clean Conferencing Institute? And we say, well, we're trying to make virtual conferencing so great that people don't really want to travel because the experience is wonderful. And they kind of look at us in a slightly odd way. And then they say they have to go and get something to drink and they disappear. So that's when we realized that

Thomas: Hmm.

Sue: People have a sort of misconception about virtual conferencing in the sense that they think it's going to be this horrible thing like Josh said of webinars one after the other and lots of Zoom fatigue and eight hours of sitting in your chair. And actually none of those things need to be true. The technology has come a really long way and how we think about it has come a really long way and the research has moved so that virtual conferencing can be much more engaging, fun and socially interactive.

Thomas: Yeah, this is great. Yeah, it is really great stuff. mean, I think a lot of us can identify with the. Well, I mean, Zoom was both a savior and online stuff was a savior during COVID and tons of innovation happened. But yeah, it was fatiguing because the because the technology itself is fatiguing. so. But I, Yeah, there's a number of precursors. I think Josh, like you said, people were doing interesting things even before COVID.

I did an online, there's an online facilitation format called the World Cafe, which is kind of a group facilitation. And I did a training with someone who did online World Cafe years ago that was super fun. They used music, they used art, they shared imagery and photographs. just a little bit of creativity makes meetings much more alive. I know when I do when I do my online trainings with therapists, I've had people come in from all around the world and just small things like each in the first meeting, everyone shares a picture of themselves, something they love about nature and a thing they're concerned. And then we just share each of those pictures. People talk about them. It really it's fun. It works really well. And it isn't that hard to do if you just play around with the technology. That's even just on Zoom. But I know there are many other interesting formats too. So I think a takeaway for the listeners is just, you know, most people aren't aware of this stuff. I mean, I wasn't aware of it until I actually saw it. So there's a lot more fun stuff out there than you might, you might realize. But yeah, go ahead.

Sue: I also think that's a very, I just think that's a really nice activity that you just mentioned because it does many things at once. That example, it's something that everyone can contribute to, a photo, a concern, a love. It provides a sense of quick trust where people can start to build relationships in a short period of time without having to know each other for years. And it's a really nice segue into the content of what you're doing because you're going to be talking about environmental issues.

Sue: It's really great if all of those things can come together so people feel like they're bringing their whole selves, their personal selves, their history, their situation, as well as their minds.

Thomas: Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. that's exactly how it works. So it's very and then of course, it's a great icebreaker. And then you can refer back to those images, the whole rest of the group, you know, people sharing images of their family or images of them hiking somewhere beautiful or something in their neighborhood.

Yeah, there's a lot to it. People, I'll tell you one interesting tidbit is that most people when they share something they love, they share something personal like one of their own pictures, but when they share something that's concerning to them, then they often share something they pick out off the news. So it's really, and it gets into this whole conversation about how do we see the world and how do we make our reality. So we can go deep, as you know, in all these kinds of things also. But that's the whole facilitation museum interpretation piece, right? Which is fascinating. yes, let's keep going. Sue, you talked about superpowers earlier in our pre-conversation. And I think it, what do you mean by that? And how is that working in your work with Clean Conferencing?

Sue: Well, people often feel helpless. certainly do a lot of the time feel helpless in the face of this climate change. But one of the things we realized during this work is that people have more power than they think in this area. And so even in relation to virtual conferencing, people will say, well, what can I do? Actually, there's a lot you can do. If you are in the fortunate position of being a board member of a professional association or an organizer, of a conference for a professional association, then you have a very special opportunity to really make a huge difference to the planet. Every virtual conference that you hold is a big deal in terms of the number of people that are now not getting into planes and emitting a whole bunch of carbon and in terms of accessibility. two things to bear in mind if you're in that lucky situation. One is that you can alternate and you can push as a decision maker for alternating between virtual and in-person conferences and that cuts in half your emissions while still giving people the opportunity to meet in person every other year. And another thing just to put in there, where you put your conference if you're going to have an in-person one also makes a huge difference to the amount of greenhouse gas you emit. So don't just go to San Francisco because it's a cool city. But really think about, especially the Midwest, as a place that's really going to save a lot of carbon. And there are calculators to help with that. So those are the people who have really an obvious superpower. I would also just name a few other folks. If you're a funder, you have an enormous superpower because you can affect all the projects you fund in one fell swoop by pushing for less travel and more justification and low carbon options and, of course, virtual.

So you have a leverage sort of multiplicative impact as a superpower. Platform providers also have an opportunity here to really push their designs to focus more on supporting this kind of lovely social informal networking that we're talking about that's so lacking in the virtual space. And so really pushing for, I'll just give one example, which is levels of just-in-time information. As people meet each other in these spaces, there's not much time. I have to get to know you really fast and to have an access to a very appropriate level of information about you. Maybe it's just, hi, I'm Sue. Ask me about conferencing. That's my thing. Or ask me about my dog because I love dogs. That gives somebody an immediate in without having to read a whole bio. So that's something that platform providers could be doing.

Exhibitors are enormously important and they, exhibitors and vendors often drive the whole system that brings in the money that supports conferences that brings in thousands of people to travel. They, by the way, do not generally love in-person conferences either because they have to ship a whole lot of stuff and they have to talk to people who really don't want to be there and they have to put out candy to try and entice them to talk to them.

So that's not really working either. There's an opportunity for exhibitors and vendors to stay really involved in virtual conferences. And in particular, I think the way there is to really focus on going from the funnel model that they have going from many people to a few key decision makers to drop that many people phase and go straight to identifying cleverly and possibly with AI, he kinds of people that you really want to be talking to, because a few great conversations are way better than a lot of lousy ones. And the last person I just want to name is attendees. So many of us are conference attendees and we think, well, I didn't decide, here we are, we're flying around the world to be at this thing. Well, first of all, you do vote with your feet and if you don't go, that's significant. As we accumulate numbers, that's something where you become a change agent. Also, express your views to the people that are making the decisions. Make sure they know that you support alternating between virtual and in-person. And also, of course, take care of yourself when you are at a conference. Make sure that you have a good experience. taking breaks and making sure you're fully present, setting aside time as you would if you were attending a conference and really going to the virtual networking sessions, which people always say they want to network. And then when you have a session, people are a little scared and run away, which is one of the reasons we're working so hard to make social norms that make people feel more safe and secure when they're in those sessions.

Josh: And I just want to add another group, which is organizational leaders. So I'm thinking of administrators at universities or leaders at organizations that set policy for travel to conferences. For example, academics often think that if they give a talk at an in-person conference, it will count more. Than if they give a talk at a virtual conference for things like tenure or for promotion. And that's usually not true. We have some great partners at the University of California, San Francisco that are working on this, Sarah Ackerman and Katherine Gundling, that are looking at really clearly articulating the policies for regular faculty so they better understand what do they actually have to do in terms of attending conferences and disseminating their work. But the leaders of those organizations can set policies that incentivize more virtual conference attendance. For example, a lot of universities set aside funding for students to attend conferences or for junior faculty to attend conferences. And some universities like UCSF are now starting to set aside funding for attending virtual conferences. So here's some funding to register for that virtual conference. And that can really incentivize people to move away from travel and towards doing the virtual conference. So these are all, I just wanna say these are all like thinking at the systems level rather than that individual level of.

Thomas: Mm-hmm.

Josh: Each person saying, what should I do here? Should I go with my values and skip this conference? Or should I advance my career and fly to this conference? We're trying to say, let's shift that lens and instead of forcing the individual to make those kind of hard choices, let's change the systems that we're in. I think it's part of this whole movement.

that's now waking up and recognizing that thinking about climate change as something that we individually have done and collectively, but individually we each have contributed to. And that's the carbon footprint idea that was designed and disseminated by BP, a fossil fuel company, to get us to feel guilty about climate change, to get us to feel defensive and to live in apathy and denial, shifting away from that and thinking about this as a systemic issue. know, Nathaniel Stinnette, the founder of the Environmental Voter Project, says, this is a homicide, not a suicide. Meaning, are not doing climate change to ourselves, the individual person around the world.

This is a small number of actors who are forcing all of us to use particular systems of energy development, energy creation and dissemination, using particular systems for travel and lots of other things, food that are changing the climate. And we need to reframe and be thinking about those actors and the systems we’re all in.

Thomas: That's wonderfully said. I'm really glad we got it because it's at its base it's ethics and being our best selves and doing the best we can. So I'm glad we got we've covered a lot of ground. There's a lot you know for listeners there's a lot of misconceptions you know academics think they have to travel but that doesn't affect their tenure you know. In fact, most of the travel for academic conferences are well established faculty, know, so there's a lot of systemic things. Let's, in our final thing, final section here, let's turn it around to the individual, because I think we can learn a lot for our personal lives.

I you know what I'm thinking as you talk about superpowers as we individually have superpowers in our own lives I know it's not as easy when we have an organization, but you know, know, and I have talked about this, you know, in terms of our families, all of us are all of us have families, think all of us are, you know, in families, our parents, our parents or whatever.

So let's talk about that and this may be more speculative, but like we have superpowers because we, know, in terms of my family reunion or whatever, I am the organizer. I am often the funder. I am an attendee. And so have you can we speculate a little bit about takeaways for personal life? Anybody have thoughts?

Josh: Well, one thing I'll say is just that what we found is that when you hold a virtual conference, just setting aside the family reunion for a moment, when you hold a virtual conference, you tend to get a lot more people who have family responsibilities attending the conference. So people with small children who would have a really hard time leaving their kids and traveling.

Thomas: Mm-hmm.

Josh: For example, or who have pets and would have a hard time leaving them. So it can be much more accessible. It's not just accessible to people who can't afford to go to travel to another city for a conference. It can be for people who just have family obligations. Of course, there's a flip side to that, which is then, and this is kind of what Sue is talking about, then,

Thomas: Mm-hmm.

Josh: Creating your space at home where you can fully attend to the conference without distraction as much as possible. And this is another place where organizations can offer funding for people who want to stay home to rent a little shared workspace, for example, to attend the conference. If they don't have a place in their home to be able to get away from the everyday obligations to attend the conference. So there are ways to bring more people into the experience.

Sue: Then the other thing I would add is just what this has really done for me is that it has given me quite a lot of hope actually, especially this planet we're on that is so interconnected now. The idea that if we get something right, it catches on really quickly. And if we can solve making virtual meetings and virtual conferences just to that tipping point where they become really fun and really rewarding and engaging, then we believe that overnight it would be taken up because all the people who are attending, all the people who are in meetings, all the people who are even doing birthday parties virtually and discovering that there are funner ways to do it than you realised, all of that starts to build on itself. And so we do believe that this is something that you can have a lot of hope for because the connectivity of the world really works in our favour.

Thomas: Yeah.

Josh: Yeah, FaceTime has taken off, right, on the phones because it is really lovely to chat with a family member who, you my kids are away in college and it's great to be able to catch up with them and see them while I'm talking to them. I remember 20, wow, 23 years ago when my daughter was just born, my mother who lived across the country would Ichat with us. That's what it was called back then. It was called Ichat. And we set my mother up with a camera and she would read books to our children and hold up the book to the camera. And I just remember after she started doing that, when we did finally then see my mother, you know, once a year or something, would, the kids were instantly connected with her. already, felt they knew her, they felt they could just run to her and be with her. There was no hesitation, no awkwardness. And so to Sue's point, these technologies can really help keep us connected, even in between the annual or biannual family gatherings that you were talking about, Thomas. So maybe the whole family could get together a little less often in person, but much more often virtually just to keep those connections alive.

Thomas: Yeah, tons of ramifications. We're going to wrap up our discussion today. Panu, why don't you close us out? I imagine in Finland, culturally, there are ways that this is happening as well. So what are your thoughts either on the personal or professional as we wrap it up today?

Panu: Yes, thanks Sue and Charles for sharing all that and for your passion into working with the current reality and shaping it to the better and taking into account basic human needs and trying to do a systems level thinking about how to get things forward. So much appreciating that. Finland is a small country with high levels of education, so different startups and things to do with electronics. Technology are a big part of what's going on here. There's lots of things who will resonate with what you are doing and listeners will put links to the website where you can find much more information about the practicalities and different possibilities about what you and Josh have been talking about here. Also appreciating that you are view on success is that everything good counts. So it doesn't have to be that we instantly change everything into virtual, but for example just having the annual conference every second year virtually so it's already cutting half of the emissions for example and that's related to living with complexity and ambiguity that we have been often talking about in this podcast. So warm thanks from my side.

Thomas: Yeah, so listeners, I hope you got something interesting out of here. It perked your interest. We'll have some good links in the show notes. There's a ton of stuff going on in this area and it's again, as we've talked about, you have an epiphany or once you have some new creative knowledge, it can spark all kinds of things. Psnu said we can change the structure to meet our human needs so that's ultimately what it's all about. So Sue and Josh thank you so much for the work that you're doing and for the structural changes that you're making and Panu and listeners everyone be well.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

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Rebecca Weston at a march on Oct 18, 2025

S5 E5: On Finding One's Voice With The CPA's Rebecca Weston Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Thomas and Panu engaged with Rebecca Weston, lawyer, clinician and Co-Executive Director of the Climate Psychology Alliance of North America. Rebecca shared her journey of empowerment about climate therapy, emphasizing the need for empathy and understanding of denial and fear surrounding climate change. The conversation delved into the significance of attachment and relationships in shaping our responses to environmental crises. As an organizational leader, Rebecca reflected on the challenges and growth opportunities within the Climate Psychology Alliance, such as securing funding and support for grassroots climate initiatives.

Links

• Rebecca Weston
• Climate Psychology Alliance - North America

• Become a CPA member

• Upcoming CPA Book Talk: Ari Cook-Shonkoff & Thomas Doherty

• Thursday, Dec 4, 2025

Transcript

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I’m Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is our podcast. This podcast is a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and other environmental issues. This started as a dialogue between Panu and I that we decided to make public. And, you know, we were a bit of early adopters in this when we were starting to do this work, but now it's much more common to have these conversations. And it's much more common for therapists and other people to be doing public versions of this work. And on that note, we have a really special guest with us.

Rebecca Weston: Hi, my name is Rebecca Weston and I am a private practice clinician full-time and I'm co-executive director of the Climate Psychology Alliance of North America. And I'm really excited and honored to be with you guys.

Doherty: Yes, and so Rebecca knows very well about this idea of public dialogue and she's been helping to steward a huge organization of people that are trying to do climate cafes and put the word out and help the counseling, psychology, therapy field, address all these broad issues of climate and environmental things and all the other associated issues that

are stressing us in the world. And so we're really glad to have Rebecca here to give us a little perspective of her work. Panu, do you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Rebecca, also on my behalf. Lovely to be talking directly with you, We have been following each other's work, but we haven't been in actual dialogue. So it's a great pleasure. And I'm a member of the Climate Psychology Alliance, the international one, but of course, much of its European activities are based in Great Britain. And then there's an active North American chapter. We'll probably talk a bit more about that today since you have been very active in that. But before going there, it would be very interesting to know something about your path towards being so engaged with climate matters and climate psychology. So would you like to start by sharing something about that journey?

Weston Sure. My journey, I come from a family of social and political activists and from Holocaust survivors to civil rights activists and towards the end of my father's life he was very, very involved in the human rights basis of climate change and was very sort of one of the early thinkers around how to use international legal systems to protect the planet for future generations. But I was actually a Johnny-come-lately to climate because I had very absurd notions about what the environmentalist movement was. I think in part because I was reacting to my father. I didn't want to do what he was doing.

Doherty: Mm-hmm.

Weston: But also I had this kind of archaic split in my mind between the environment and human issues. And I somehow took a kind of, there was a hubris in my idea that somehow I was gonna focus on poverty, I was gonna focus on racism, I was gonna focus on the hard issues. And environmentalism was just those people who cared about owls. And I was very dismissive, to be completely honest. And it wasn't until, well, I guess with the recognition of climate change, it became something clearly very different to me. I am very deeply committed and connected to my own environment, have been for a long time, but it was really around climate change that I began to think there's something more to this. And I've clearly missed the boat on a huge number of very, very important issues ranging from environmental justice and everything else. But that was not even enough to get me moving because then I went straight from awareness to denial. I was raising two very young kids and my father would give me book after book after book about climate crisis and every single gift-giving occasion he would give me these books and I would put them at the bottom of my bookshelf. I could tolerate understanding and looking at literally every other issue but I could not tolerate this one. I would turn the open the page and my anxiety level will rise and I would say not today.

Doherty: Hmm.

Weston: Part of what led me ultimately to this work is that I think that if I went through such a process of denial and pushing away and avoidance, surely I could understand where other people were coming from about why they felt the need to push it away. And I felt like I had a way of understanding that and having empathy for that and wanting to connect to the love of life that is often part of that denial, actually dysfunctional refusal to see, you know? And I really wanted to connect and I did not want to be in judgment towards people who were feeling those things because I knew for myself it was not because I was stupid, it was not because I was politically to the far right, it was because I cared too much about my children and my life that I was scared to see it. And I found that to be immensely eye opening and it gave me a foothold into the work that I could feel connected to and not run away from. So that was really my own origin and since then from that basis I have felt like I could stay with the problem and not flinch and that's been really important to me.

Pihkala: Thanks for sharing all that and really appreciating the honesty about those reactions even though they are not the ethical ideal but I really think that we need to be honest about that and I also believe as you said that it can give lots of understanding about where people are and trying to avoid binary interpretations between good and bad folks for example.

A couple of the emotional dimensions are course fear or threat related emotions which you are voicing and then also potential guilt dynamics and that may be also very difficult if one doesn't find a way to connect with these issues. I know that you have found so that probably helps with that also.

Can you share something about the work that you have been doing in practice? As a therapist, has it been so, as you supposed, that this history has helped you to understand the variety of people's responses?

Weston: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I think one of the things I love most about being a clinician is that something happens when you go into the room theoretically or like the literal room or the metaphoric room where judgments really do go out the window and trying to stay very near to an experience that somebody has. And I find it incredibly powerful to relate to the experiences that people share. Why they are afraid, why they feel hesitant, why they have ambivalence, why they feel helpless, why they feel entitled. All of the different feelings that people have that can interrupt climate action or even climate awareness. I find it quite natural in many respects to have empathy for those starting points. Its interesting because I have tremendous political judgment, I have tremendous political sort of opinions and very strong moral and ethical codes that I think about in a larger political world. But there is something incredibly special about the therapeutic space that enables one to find a sense of empathy to the feelings that we might not feel otherwise find approachable.

That to me is incredibly important, again, to bring people closer and to recognize the humanity that is often part of the story that gets missed about why people turn away, disavow all the other things. So yes, I find my own experience to be immensely helpful. I find also being a clinician in general being immensely helpful to understanding how to communicate about this issue to the larger world, absolutely.

Doherty: That's lovely. That's lovely. You speak to something that's really important to me to that idea, the importance of the therapeutic space. And I think you've done a good job articulating this, this kind of holding two different realities. There's that political reality, like you say, where there has to be action and, and we have to commit to fighting battles against oppression and various things in the real world. But also, it's hard to put into words, but basically being able to have this, this space outside of the battlefield. What the metaphor I use is like the athlete, like they come off the playing field and they go to the sidelines or they go into the locker room. And during that time, they're not on the field. They're able to be real and to think and to share their feelings and so that's to me that's like the that's the therapy space it is special and then philosophically there's that old Rumi poem about “ there's a place beyond good and bad you know I'll meet you there” you know so it's philosophically a place we could we can examine our assumptions and on all that sort of stuff.

Its really helpful for people because some people haven't experienced that. They're always in the game 24-7. And they can't imagine stepping out of the game. So I think that's one of reasons why people don't want to get in the game. Does that make sense? They don't actually want to take it on because I feel like if they do, it'll be a never-ending cycle.

What were some of the books you remember some of the books your father gave you or what time frame in years are we talking about here when you were when you were still in your cocoon there?

Weston: The fifth extinction was one of them. Something by Gus Speth.

Doherty: They Knew by Gus Speth

Weston: certainly stuff by Bill McKibbin. I'm not remembering all of them now. My dad died in 2014. And I didn't really come to sort of full awareness of my own capacity to take this on until 2016. I don't think it's surprising that it wasn't until after he died. I felt very much an open space finally to sort of embrace it, to take it on, to see the magnitude of it.

I also think it's important to sort of name, which I have in other places as well, what the space was that enabled me to do that, which speaks to the collective nature of this, is that I was living in Missoula, Montana at the time, a friend of mine who had been very involved in climate work prior to this, he was part of holding something called the Climate Smart Communities, which is something that happens all over the country. And the particular one that she helped put together included experts, lay experts as well as professionalized experts in the entire, an unbelievable array of fields ranging from people who understood roofing to people who understood seeds, people who understood paint and climate, the tourism industry, the Native American sort of indigenous food sovereignty movement, like issues of homelessness.

Which they brought into the room such an extraordinary wealth of human resources and knowledge and capacity that was both professional and lay, that was both earned expertise and intellectualized expertise in the room, all gathering to talk about how are we going to adapt to climate change. And it was, think, the first time, think, where the Sunrise Movement had just sort of occupied I can't remember whose office it was, but the Sunrise Movement had just occupied somebody's office. And so there was this real energy around sunrise and then in the space of, I would say 150 people all talking about how we can preserve the world we love. And it was in that space that I finally opened up, I can do this, I can do this, I can step in, I'm not alone. People are bringing all sorts of histories and expertise to this, I can bring mine and mine is a mine is a psychological, mine is an attachment, mine of the understanding of trauma, the need of parenting. Like I all of sudden realized I had something to offer and it didn't need to be everything. And that I could join the multitude of people. And that gave such a space and permission to be part of, but not the only source. And that was just huge, a huge opening for me. And that was the time when my father had been giving me the books. I finally took them out and finally could get past the first or second page and say okay I'm stepping in stepping in and I'm ready and and I feel support support of a larger community of people.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for sharing that and it sounds like there was container big enough and also enough safety and one might name co-regulation of course here and some previous episodes of this podcast feature discussions about these dynamics. I'm thinking of the one with Rosemary Rorandel and one with René Lerchman for example and some discussions with Caroline Hickman also and the dynamic which was very eye-opening for me around 2015 that's if a person is scared it doesn't help to increase threat levels, it just works the opposite. But this also reminds me of a task I had just one and a half weeks ago, which was being the opponent of a dissertation defense, where the dissertation was about using trauma-informed methods in high school education on environmental themes, especially in relation to texts and language. So that was a quite interesting. Greetings to Päivi Koponen who was the dissertation defendant and there was lots of discussion about trauma dynamics and co-regulation and the need for safety also in relation to school spaces. Since I know that you have been much involved with these topics and you named attachment and trauma, so would you like to tell the listeners a bit about how do you see the connections between trauma and attachment to these dynamics we are talking about?

Weston: Yes, well, that's quite an opportunity. I believe so deeply in the social basis of being human and in the early, early, early formation and co-regulation that Winnicott said, there's no such thing as a baby and there's no such thing as a mother, there's a unit. We are always in dyad, if not triad and community, right? Like how far do we extend that out? And I think that the process of being able to hold intense feeling and recognizing one's ability to think oneself through it and feel oneself through it is utterly dependent on a relational space. And so the relationship of attachment is profoundly related to our individual collective capacity to honor and know and experience a feeling and make meaning out of that feeling, make meaning and then therefore take action on the basis of it. If we aren't in a co-regulated space, if we're not in a relationship where that is a safe thing to do, we're going to shut those parts of ourselves down, right? And they will be inaccessible to us as sources of information, as sources of validation about what we might need or want or do for the world in a traumatized system.

I did a lot of sort of family trauma assessments, in a traumatized system, the parent is going to check out, will not be available for a child, and therefore the whole system gets dysregulated. And you think about how do they then approach feelings of threat? How do they approach feelings of insecurity? How do they approach feelings of scarcity? All of those other kinds of things. There's not going to be a flexibility, a pliability, an emotional trust that if one names what you need, you will get it. And all of those things are vital for a resilient world that we're trying to create in this moment. So I deeply believe in attachment as a primary basis for healing and understanding trauma-informed care to your point, a scared person is not going to respond in a way that feels productive or collective out of fear. That's not going to happen. They will shut down. They will protect. They will defend. They will do all the things that people do. So I mean, there's a lot to say about that. I fear I'm not being particularly articulate about it right now. But to me its indispensable. And I've been working quite a bit with climate journalists and trying to understand what it's like to be a journalist reporting about this work while they're living in the communities where it happens. The level of trauma in the climate journalism field, how do they then write from that experience? How do they honor that experience? How do they write to an audience that's traumatized by the news, by the images? How do we not encourage avoidance? All of those kinds of things. Again, trauma-informed writing, trauma-informed care, trauma-informed education, how do we keep people regulated enough to stay present?

Which I think is what ultimately happened in that large collective space I had, right? That large collective space helped me regulate my own panic, which softened me into being able to actually take in the information, not defend against it, not push it away. That to me is the heart of why we do collective work, why we need to think of it at a community level, is that we need to keep people safe enough internally to hear what's happening, and then to relate to each other as allies as opposed to threats.Very hard work, given the political system and the terrain that we're in at the moment.

Pihkala: Yeah, that's wonderful and before I give the floor to Thomas who probably has a lot on his mind, I'll just say that I think you are being very clear and articulate about quite complex dynamics. So well done.

Doherty: Yeah. I agree. I was I was going to say the same thing. It is you. You kind of gave a very concise, definition of attach an attachment, trauma based approach to this work. So it does start with the family and it is a lot. Yeah, It's so great to have these conversations to get really into the nitty gritty of this kind of work because in the climate elephant I talk about, where there's all different parts of the elephant and we're blind and we get our part and we think this is what climate change is. And then we talk to someone else and they say, well, yes, but this is also what climate change is, and then we realize, okay, we have multiple truths going on. And that I think is one of the hardest things. That's why I really love your story about the climate smart communities, because the other entree into this is more of a positive psychology direction as well, which is not about trauma, but about, I can contribute. The fact that they call that a climate smart community, they didn't call climate traumatized community. So they're approaching it from a position of strength, positivity. And so many people gravitate to that. They would not go to a therapy group. That's not what they're interested in. Many of those climate smart people are not interested in therapy. They're interested in making a change. And so the idea of being smart is really a great framing and that provides a container as well. And then you can approach this as, oh I have a job, you're a roofer, you do HVAC systems, you do the community planning, but I'm a therapist and I have a job in the community. So that's so important.

Because therapists are just as important as firefighters and doctors and plumbers. And so you were able to say, wait a minute, I think, that's what Rosemary Randall, when she was doing her climate, that's what she realized too, was like, wait, I do have a role here already just right off the shelf. And so that's the other important piece about things like the Climate Psychology Alliance is that we have a lot of willing workers. So it's very much the same as climate and sustainability moving through other industries. It's moving through the therapy industry. And there's many highly, highly trained, highly gifted, highly gifted people who do know all this nuanced stuff about attachment and trauma and positive psychology and cognitive behavioral psychology, interpersonal and, you know all the different therapy flavors. And so you were able to say, wait a minute, I can help.

If we had another episode maybe you can unpack your complex relationship with your father because, know, we all have parents. We all have parents. You can have issues with authority and issues with authority, right? I mean, you have issues with authority in the larger sense, but you also had issues with authority, right? so, but we're all, we all family. yeah. What?

Weston: We sure do. My first political button, Thomas, was a question authority! My first political button was a huge one that said “question authority,” and that has remained.

Doherty: Yeah, and the psychoanalytic people out there always know that, you know, the parent and the family relationships are not very far behind us. But, you know, that's another story. But you don't even have to go into it just to name that there are those dynamics. That's helpful for people to know. My daughter will probably have a similar experience because, you know, she grew up in a household where climate change was talked about. luckily she is in Portland, so it's quite normative for everyone to be conscious. So she doesn't feel like she has to be the truth teller in the family, you know, but you know, everybody will have their family individuation process or whatever that, whatever that means.

How about we move to the present and Climate Psychology Alliance has got so many things going on and I know behind the scenes you just deserve like a really big award and a know a big bouquet of flowers for all the work that you've been doing. We know it's very difficult to run nonprofit groups and things like that so there's a lot there but what are you what are you proud of with the CPA right now and what what are some of the growing edges? in the organization that would be nice to shed some positive attention to, do you think?

Weston: That's a wonderful question and thank you. And I bet many people would have different answers to that same question. I think the thing I'm most proud about within CPA and what makes it somewhat different from other organizations and I just wrote about this in the newsletter in a kind of smaller way, is that it takes seriously that it's a membership-based organization. It's not a small staff that is determining a whole bunch of policy around grants. It really is membership-based and we have close to 750 members. I think its growth is entirely limited by capacity to hold who joins and finding kind of productive ways for people to feel connected and in community with each other. think that 750 by no means represents the volume of people in the mental health field who are wanting to take part and engage around issues of climate. And so I think it's just incredibly powerful to envision that there's even 750 clinicians in communities all around the United States who are trying precisely to think about how can I contribute my skills?

Of a community that needs lots and lots of skills, as you say from plumbing to seed work to farming to creating sort of alternative school systems around the summers, all of these other kinds of things. What can I contribute as a therapist in this idea of a mutual world, mutual creating of a world, to think that we are teaching people that it's okay to do that, that they can be part of a larger process, that they don't have to think of their clinical skills as being narrow and individualized, but they can be part of a larger collective process around the climate movement. That that is something that's happening all around the country, even in an embryonic state, to me is so inspiring and so beautiful and frankly different from all of the other, most of the other climate organizations. And that's with intention. What that also means is it's far messier. It's messier, it's harder. The kinds of questions that we are engaging in and how do we communicate effectively? How do we have a democratic process and still organize? How do we raise grants when we're this weird hybrid wonky thing? Are we membership? Are we mental health? Are we climate? What are we? It makes it very, very wonky, but it also makes it to me have a heart and a soul that I really value deeply.

I think some of the growth points, and I don't think there will be an answer to this, to something that Panu and I were talking about at the beginning is how do we situate ourselves in a political moment that is deeply, deeply fraught and where the issue of climate might not be front and center for many, many people. And that's not again because of denial. It's because the threats that we're facing as a community, as a population, as a country, as a planet are so interwoven, right? So when we think about threats to immigration, when we think about threats around authoritarianism and democracy. That's not unrelated to climate. Our ability to be active, our ability to name, our ability to collectively organize, all of those things are deeply implicated. But as a membership organization, we all have very, very different comfort levels with those questions. We are located geographically in very diverse places, politically diverse, suffering from climate change does not have a political label on it, although you might acknowledge some may have may not acknowledge it as climate. So how do we situate ourselves ethically and responsibly and clarity in this political moment? That's not an easy thing to figure out. And it is what keeps me up at night. It's what gives me tremendous excitement and tremendous fear. It makes me feel like I'm doing terrible work as well as very important work. It's very confusing. And I think that's a growth point for all of us. And we hold different pieces in the organization around that.

I think the other growth point is to move away from being kind of a virtual training organization to really empowering community members and clinicians on the ground to do the work in person. So we are trying to get, and this is where the philanthropy field really, really needs to step up. How do we actually fund the work on the ground so that we can go into agricultural communities and have some of these listening circles that are tailored to the geographically and politically specific spaces they're in. How do we reach STEM scientists who are feeling horribly demoralized after they've lost all their jobs and are seeing what's happening in the federal government? How do we provide support? How do we learn about mutual aid if we don't have money to actually fund clinicians to do this work when they're still working out their own livelihoods, right?

So we want to move away from being a training organization that thinks only about resilience and the importance of doing these things and actually having the capacity to do it all over the country. Because that's where really rubber hits the road, right? We're all committed to actually doing the work and feeling the work and not just talking about the work. And that needs real money because people can't do this on volunteer fumes over the long haul. And this has been profound, an organization of unbelievable volunteers.

Primarily volunteers still, which speaks to the dedication people are feeling. mean, people are giving unbelievable amounts of time that's not compensated. And you imagine what could happen if people felt like there was some breathing room to actually do the work on the ground and make the connections that need to be made.

So that's to me the biggest growth edge and that's a direct sort of commentary about sort of the climate and philanthropy world. Is there space for climate and mental health? How do we forge that space?

Myself, our organization is part of a coalition that's trying to develop that, is to really begin the process of educating the philanthropy world to this need. Because otherwise, it's only going to stay up here in the internet sphere and the webinar sphere. And that reaches such an exceedingly limited group of people that it's really not where we want to stay. So that's what I would say.

Doherty: Yeah, I'm glad you brought it to that level because that is, you have a job, but like, you as one of the directors, co-directors, you you're in the real nitty-gritty of one very specific part of the climate field, which is helping to run a large nonprofit organization. And there's many listeners that would know what that is like. Not all of us have to do that particular job, but that is itself a very special job. And also, I just want to say, yes, let's just give a shout out to all the volunteers that have helped with the CPA. I feel like it's a right of passage for a lot of therapists to have done a tour in the CPA world. And you do what you can. you know, lot of us, Panu and I have dealt with this over the years too. I know we don't know what we're capable of and we over commit and then we give what we can and then we realize we need to pull back and that's a natural part of this work.

So, but it's, there's a place to go for it, you know, that doesn't require you just to be a sole person. And for some people, they really need a group to get going. So, so congratulations to everyone in the CPA and that whole—I don't even know, there was not one person that started it. Obviously, it was this coalescence of coalescence of things. But Rebecca, you're holding the holding one of the, you know, the place, place of director, directorship today. So we're honoring you. Well, we could go further, as we always say, but we have to wrap up. But this has been a really nice little window into your world, Rebecca. I really, know you're so busy. I really appreciate you coming in today to talk with us.

Weston: Thank you.

Pihkala: Yeah, warm thanks also on my behalf. There would be many teams to continue and also honouring and being grateful for the integration of realism and a positive vision that you are showing. So all the best with that.

Weston: Thank you. Thank you for this opportunity.

Doherty: We are, we're going to stop in a second, but you are still alive.

Weston: Well, so then I will plug your book because I am in the middle of reading it and I am finding it to be, not all of it is particularly new, but the way you're framing things and the way you're talking about the need to hold all of the different feelings very much was top of mind today for me. And I look forward to writing something about it, but I've been really excited reading it and I want everyone on this podcast to check it out when it comes out. That it really does offer a way into these feelings, a way into being a whole person in these feelings. And especially bringing the parts of oneself that feels capable, that can feel joy, and how those need to be parts of our wellspring of action. Again, just really, really like the book so far, really value it, and want to, and I will be finishing it and getting something to you. So, high praise.

Doherty: Well, thank you that I didn't I didn't even ask for that nice little testimonial but I really appreciate that. Surviving climate anxiety is the book that I finished that's coming out on October 7th. So thank you so much for that.

We're going to wrap it up, Panu. I know you've got another meeting to go to and you're doing your research work. So thank you all very much and listeners and everyone, take care.

Weston: Thanks. Bye bye.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

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image credit | **Shelby Bowman**

S5 E4: Meaning, Values, Nature, and Family Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Season 5, Episode 4: Meaning, Values, Nature, and Family

Your environmental identity is a core source of strength and long-term coping with eco and climate stresses. This was the theme of this episode as Panu spoke with Thomas about Part II – Identity – of Thomas's new book Surviving Climate Anxiety. As Thomas explained, each chapter, “Meaning,” “Values,” “Nature” and “Family” highlights a core aspect of environmental identity and how it's made and maintained. Panu and Thomas also discussed the recent New York City Climate Week activities as an example of positive changes and opportunities to engage with gifted leaders and innovators. Join us for an inspiring discussion!

Links

• Surviving Climate Anxiety Book

  • Review and Preview Publisher’s Weekly
  • New York Climate Week 2025 Highlights
  • Meaning and Eco-anxiety Featuring: Panu Pihkala
  • Hila The Earth

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I’m Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is our podcast, for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling and dreaming deeply about climate change and other environmental issues. And we ask this provocative question, what does it mean to be happy in the modern world? And that usually animates our discussions. Panu, how are you doing today?

Pihkala: Thanks for asking, Thomas. It's early evening in Helsinki as it is usually when we record and this is going to be the second in line on episodes where we heavily discuss Tomas's new book which is soon gonna come out of the printing houses. Surviving Climate Anxiety, A Guide to Coping, Healing and Thriving.

And this episode we are looking especially at part two, which has the general heading of identity, but it has four chapters on meaning, values, nature and family. All topics that we love to discuss in this podcast. And also, I know, Thomas, as we record this, you're soon about to end your trip to the New York Climate Week. So I wanted to get us started by asking how has that experience been?

Doherty: Yeah, thanks Panu. Yeah, I'm coming in from a non-traditional location here in New York City, and currently in Manhattan. yeah, it's been a really nice week and I've had a chance to visit some. Travel is a big deal these days and so you want to make the most of your travel opportunities. So I've been able to visit with family here and be a tourist in New York and get my daughter Ava off on her own travels. She's turned 18 and she's doing some world travel. So that's a big developmental stage for us and our family. And then meeting with my publisher.

And then, yes, attending, and it all happened in the context of this climate week, which is just a general open series of meetings and events across New York related to climate change, and also held in tandem with the current UN General Assembly. So there's a lot of events, actually way more than you could possibly attend, but I was able to see some really great events about education and talk to public school teachers and Sarah who we know from the Climate and Mental Health Network. We've also interviewed Anya Kamenetz. So I've got to meet a couple of the people that we've interviewed and saw a really good talk on food production and chefs and people being creative about making food taste good and also be sustainable. And then there was talks about policy and economics and the arts. I also did a really nice nature-based therapy group with a therapist named Maya in Brooklyn, New York who did a movement-based therapy group. Another artist named Hila the Earth who's a really fun performance artist. So I really got a chance to do a lot of things and at another point we can talk about the arts but I got to see the Waiting for Godot play, the current production of Waiting for Godot on Broadway which is something we can bookmark for another conversation about the arts. But yes, a full week and I should say that was all the messages around climate and action I heard were positive.

Pihkala: Yeah, quite a counterbalance to some of the content in the global news, but great to hear about how rich the experience has been there. Whenever I went to social media during the week, I've seen photos of my American colleagues at New York climate week. So lots of people working with these issues there, as you say.

Some of the things you mentioned have quite explicit links to the chapters and themes in the parts two of your book. For example, different identities and values. Sometimes they might have something to do with food and preparing food and for some other people some different things. And of course identity as a broad steam has been very much present in this podcast and in this form.

These chapters, are partly doing a sort of general audience presentation of some of the classic research in environmental psychology, but I would say in a quite user-friendly way. So there is more information and concepts, it's not very technical. It's not an academic course book, but it's linking the important research to the teams that you are discussing.

If you're thinking of part two and of course your experiences in New York during the week, what are some of the themes that most powerfully come to your mind?

Doherty: Yeah, well one of the messages I wanted to get out in the book and potentially the biggest message is this idea of environmental identity, which we talk about on the podcast a lot. It's still an unfamiliar term for a lot of people and it's just basically really tapping into our sense of our identity and our sense of self and personhood in relation to nature and the natural environment, not just our possessions and our physical environment.

Everyone has one, an environmental identity of different kinds, and often it's sort of just under the surface and when you get people talking about it, it leads to these conversations. That's sort of how that section of the book got designed because, the overall section is called identity, but the meaning is really like how we make sense of the world and how we see ourselves, you know, this eco timeline, you know, from our birth to the present, on the episodes in the podcast here, when we talk about people's background and how they got to their work, that's what they talk about is where they grew up, their sense of place, their family, connections with nature.

And so, the whole book was a strategic question of how to sequence all of these ideas for the reader so they can kind of follow along and have this building sense of themselves. that part two is really important because a lot of people want to rush to the eco-anxiety and the eco-despair and the most difficult issues, but if you don't have a sense of your identity and your values and your own sense of place and your family background and all that's the solid foundation, it's really hard to know what to do with all of that angst and anxiety. the identity just a super foundational piece. With anything, if you want to learn how to play a musical instrument, you have to start somewhere with some basics.

So the identity piece helps us to sort of start where we are. And then maybe later we can talk about action because there's a lot of political denialism about climate change happening in the US and so it there's this pull to really push against that and I think that environmental identity is the way to push against it to say I have this values I have these beliefs I this is my lived experience and you can't deny that and take that away from me

Pihkala: Thanks for discussing all that and identity and values and relationships, attachments, emotional bonds, lot of things related to quite deep stuff in us and related to dynamics of what do we do and why do we do it.

The concept of values is often used here. It's and evidently important. And then I often find myself wondering about how to give words to those kinds of factors which are not explicitly values but still guide what we do. Well, habits would be one thing, but I'm thinking about the climate deniers, for example. So I guess not many of them would say that they have sort of misanthropic values, and because they don't care about what happens to other folks, they don't care about climate matters, but there's something driving their behavior. I'm not sure if you have an idea what I'm pointing at here, but perhaps this is a very general question about what kind of factors drive our behavior.

Doherty: Yeah, I mean it's all linked together. I mean that's a challenge in the book is that everyone, everybody wants to do everything all at once. And you have to say, okay, take a breath and let's just be systematic and take some steps. So the first section of the book is about just basic coping, like how to think more effectively about how big climate change is and how complicated it is and that you see one part of it.

And then, you know, how to have a growth mindset, you know, where you realize you can learn and change and we collectively as humans can learn and grow and then all the emotion work that you do. And then I talk about in terms of emotions wheel and emotional intelligence. And then stress reduction and taking care of our bodies and doing our adaptation work that we need to do wherever we live. That’s all that basic stuff and then there's this identity piece.

One of the important values and feelings is being patient, you know, like at one step at a time. And I get this question a lot. Almost every talk someone will say, well, what do I do about this person who doesn't care about climate change or a relative or someone? And they always go to this recalcitrant person. And it's really interesting just to stop and step back and say, why do we even care about these people? Why is it so important for us to speak to these people? And I think underneath it, you know, we're social. We're social beings. We're mammals. We are primates. We have evolved to live in social groups very closely together. And in-group, out-group dynamics are really important to us. And if someone in our tribe doesn't agree with us and we feel conflict, it's really troubling for people. they're pulled to want to debate and want to find common ground, particularly if you do have values about unity and justice, so it's a paradox. But what I was talking about yesterday in a similar discussion is that just, well first of all, make sure that you're talking to the people that agree with you, right? Spend your energy with the people that agree with you and that you feel safe and comfortable with first. That builds your foundation, you know, because that's where the energy, that's where the positive action's going to come from.

With climate propaganda and some of the just gross denialism that's coming out of Washington right now is that it's not meant to spark a positive discussion or even a true discussion. It's not even based in the truth. so sometimes it's a waste of our time to involve ourselves with people who are actively denying, because they want to waste our time. They want to pull us out of the game and monopolize our attention and make us feel bad and make us feel doubtful. it's a strategic thing, but really make sure that what I tell everyone is make sure you're first spending time with people that care about you and care about what you believe. So you can work together and be aligned and have a team and have some unity and power. And then just as needed, selectively, you can work with people that are recalcitrant if you need to. But sometimes you don't need to. You need to bypass them and work with the people who want to make change. But it's easier said than done because I think at a primal level, we're drawn to want to connect with these other people. But it is ultimately, you know, later in the book I talk about action and so this all does come down to very important questions about strategy. But that's a different, you know, that's a later conversation, that's a more advanced conversation than identity. But again, when people are new they jumble all this stuff up. So part of the process is disentangling this and saying, first take care of yourself, then clarify your identity and values.

Heal where you're really feeling hurting, how to reclaim happiness, and then based on all of that, what is your action identity going to be? And that could change again and again, depending on the new technologies we have and what the circumstances are in your stages of life. yeah, it's a little bit of challenge to slow people down and say one step at a time, you can do this. This is a lifelong thing. We're not gonna solve these problems this week. Yeah, it's a lot. Does that make sense what I'm saying?

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah, it definitely does. This fact of humans being social creatures often shows in people's need for the other to agree with the approach they are taking on things. And of course, if a climate denier is not completely on that side, there's, you know, many people who have this dissonance and uncertainty in them. And while they are apparently just saying that they are certain that climate change is not a threat, are, many of them sort of asking for others to help them in denying climate matters. So it's sort of way of trying to get support for their take.

Doherty: It's interesting and what you're saying reminds me of, I think for some of our listeners where this becomes really difficult is in close families because we have multiple alliances and duties. Part of our alliance is to keep our family connected and to keep us together and it's very painful when families become split and schismed. And so it's really touchy. So the question is, what's more important, keeping the family together or telling the truth? You know, or keeping us healthy? And right now we've got messages here, particularly from the right in the US that's... It's all about, you know, you're with me or you're against me and you need to believe in a certain way and you can't say certain words. Otherwise, you're, you know, you're going to be ostracized. And so it's really dangerous. But I do think that one of the things that I think about also is not fighting people who don't believe. Not debating, but just listening. Like I say in my book, if I run against someone who really is strongly somehow denying...

I mean, there are stages of denial. Like, someone can deny the seriousness of climate change or not like certain policies, but that doesn't mean you're denying the very reality of the atmosphere and greenhouse gases. But you might also find people that really are truly uninformed or misinformed about the basic science of our planet. So what I tell myself is if they don't care about climate, these issues, then they must care about something else more. So what is it that they what is it that they care about more and I asked them and I talked about that. I don't have to agree with them, but it does change the conversation around and then we often can hear because they care about their family.

I'm a combination of a cynic and an optimist because I do feel like people do have a healthy core inside. Ultimately, they are mostly healthy, but they get twisted around. But just letting them say what they care about. Sometimes people have other political values that are being threatened. There is a reality testing, reality based thing that will happen. Like when I'm talking to someone, I this happen with a very old friend during the recent political election. We hadn't talked in some time and we were chatting and I realized that he really had a very different political belief than I do. And as we talked, I was hearing what I thought was conspiratorial thinking and I didn't think his position was truly based in what I understand to be objective reality about the world.

And when that's the case, you just have to be careful there because you're like talking to someone from another planet. sometimes you just have to stop and say, well, we're going to have to agree to disagree because this is my life and this is what I'm doing and what I think is important. So I'm going to pursue this. if I can't convince you, then I'm going to wish you peace and wish you well, but I'm gonna move forward. Because otherwise, it's not helpful if someone doesn't understand reality. If I told you, Panu, you don't understand reality, I know reality better than you, that's not gonna go over very well. You're not gonna like that. So there is a time of just saying, I'm not gonna fight this battle. And then I'm gonna move to my allies and with people that really are wanting to push forward. Does that make sense?

Pihkala: Yeah, it perfectly does and gives an occasion to say tribute to Robert J. Lifton who passed away some weeks ago and a collection of his writings or parts of it is called Losing Reality. So that's a very, I would say, unfortunately timely read for the time in which we are living. And you have a chapter about family in this part too. listeners, you will find more content about family dynamics from that chapter. And there's lots of prompts and exercises for people to think about their histories in relation to how they have been connected or not connected with the natural world. there's the eco timeline exercise that we have mentioned several times and which I think is highly useful. Telling your eco story and your eco family tree. I guess that could be linked with also telling them history of your social and political participation or non-participation. I guess that might be a strand in itself.

Doherty: Yeah, luckily a lot of people have positive mentors and connections in their family, people that they really admire. And so it's nice to really honor those positive elders that helped us, grandparents, parents, relatives, neighbors. And I do talk about the conflicts that I lean on, the work of William Doherty, the family therapist who does the Braver Angels, which are political partisan discussions, and the different roles that people take on in the family in these discussions. He has these great names. There's the sniper, which is the person in the family that makes outrageous statements and starts to cause conflicts. And then there's the gladiator, the person that wants to fight the battles and the bystanders and the peacekeepers. so a lot of the family therapy concepts are quite applicable in these climate debates and we can take on all these roles ourselves.

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah, and think easily recognizable by people who think of large family dinners, for example, whether that's over Christmas or Thanksgiving and those dynamics. So sometimes it's got to do with group dynamics and social dynamics more than environmental values. But that's something we have been discussing here also.

You have a chapter on meaning at this point of the book in my life experience that of course links strongly with the topic of spirituality which is only much further away in the book and I don't want to jump there but would you like to say something to the listeners about the meaning chapter and why did you decide to put it as number five?

Doherty: Yeah, you know again it was very strategic like the whole or I think originally that that chapter was called environmental Identity, but then since the whole section was called identity I tried to keep backing up and getting to what I thought were really like basic more timeless concepts because the book is not meant to be just for today. It's meant to be useful for many years. Maybe for your whole life really so I think meaning is a process that never stops. Also the way the book is set up. It's sort of like I introduce an idea in chapters early and characters and case studies and then we revisit at different levels. So there's a later chapter on healthy relationships in the thriving section, which revisits a lot of the family stuff, but on a positive sense. And then there's a chapter on caring for damaged nature in the healing section that builds on the basic nature chapter in part two.

So all of these thing build on themselves and you know ultimately the best way to frame environmental identity is how you make sense of the world—you're meaning, your story, what makes your life meaningful and significant and unique. what's wonderful about it is that you don’t have to be super outdoors adventurer, you don't have to know how to be a gardener or grow your own food. There's all different ways to be environmentally conscious. And then it prefigures later at the very end when I talk about action,

You know the action chapter again this talk it starts with duty So the first chapter and that is called so that you can see how them there's the meaning that begins section two And then duty begins the action. So it's like these are more timeless concepts. Like what is my duty? And it's hard to know what your duty is of unless you know what your meaning is, know what I mean? And so And then there's the our action identities, which I talk about it toward the end which you know, you could be a climate detective

I tried to offer some basic identities, not tied to specific behaviors because behaviors keep changing and technology is changing but I'd like to some basic, there's the detective role that we can play. Which is sort of like understanding climate change and studying it and also dealing with injustice and the criminal actions that are happening regarding stifling climate improvements around the world. there's that detective, which a lot of people are drawn into. Then there's the hero, climate hero, and that's the people that really have programs. And they say, this is how we solve it through technology and through the people who want to start nonprofits and be innovative. They're the heroes that we love. And then there's the climate survivor, which is just the person making do and surviving these disasters. So sometimes we're placed into the role of just being a survivor when we're dealing with stuff. So anyway, the book has these different levels. And right now, just this week with climate week, all of it was important to me when I was talking to educators, I was really like, you're missing this identity piece. The smart educators, I think, got it, but a lot of the educators were so focused on the information and giving all, especially young people, all this information that they didn't want really building their empowerment or identity. So I think that's important. And then because of the really gross climate propaganda, I think there's a strong pull to push back and to be that climate, climate detected to be that climate hero. So yeah, there's a lot going on. The book is like a Swiss watch that's got all these ideas crammed into it and then you can just keep expanding and playing with it in different ways.

Pihkala: Yeah, that's a nice structure, of spiral and coming back to different teams and building resonances and so appreciating that and the roles can be quite varied in character. Sometimes agents or partisans is what one needs perhaps to do if the general opinion is against you, but hopefully that may not be the case overly often. Purpose is one word that you mention in the meaning chapter and that's going to come up later also, closely connected possibly with duty and also with the idea of vocations or callings and you sort of hint at this by mentioning your experience in Joanna Macy's workshop. We actually discussed that at an earlier episode which was a tribute to Joanna Macy and the work that reconnects. So being a person who has much engaged with spirituality I was glad to this element of sort of deeper, higher self. Taking a look at one's life and wondering about vocations and callings and purpose.

Doherty: Yeah, I mean, the book was written in keeping people like you in mind, because I knew a lot of people who are quite advanced in these concepts would be reading and kind of hopefully seeing what I was trying to do is, as you say, trying to talk about some of these concepts in a way that was accessible to the general reader. But also never straying too far from what I understand is the science and the research and trying to keep it pretty close to what you would learn in a classroom if you were actually studying the basic principles. And you know that's part of my meaning myself and my strength is that I'm a psychologist and an educator and I'm not just and when I can stay with my strength about well this is what I know and this is what I think is helpful and you can decide what you think is helpful you know yourself is to the reader. I feel like I'm speaking the truth, you could say, at least the truth is, as it's generally understood and as I understand it now. So there's a lot of things I'm trying to like get in there, meaning pieces to get in there without sounding too grandiose or dry or intellectualized . We to be careful of all that stuff you know people start to like fall asleep like they're in a philosophy class or something so we want to sort of like keep it keep it real you know keep it keep it living keep it living so that was part of the goal and luckily I had some writing help to try to make sure that it was understood you know for people's not too academic.

Pihkala: That's a great mission and some really beautiful sentences like one at the end of the page where the whole part two is introduced. So which is that “where we love is where we find ourselves”. So that's beautifully said and I think a nice way to start ending our conversation on part two and climate week and times in which we are living.

I hope your travels from New York back towards Oregon go well. I'm going to see a friend in the darkening Helsinki evening.

Doherty: Yeah. Well, I've got one more day here in New York and then and then I'm flying back this evening and I have some trepidation about flights and government shutdowns and things so wish me well here. But yeah, as always Panu, it's really great to chat and you have a good evening and listeners, everyone keep the faith, think about your identity and values. No one can take those away from you. You have your right to think, to feel and to dream and that's the message for today. So everyone, Panu, take care, be well.

Pihkala: take care.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

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image credit | **Jessica Harper**

S5 E3: The Pathway from Eco-Anxiety to Thriving Thomas Doherty, Panu Pihkala Season 5, Episode 3: The Pathway from Eco-Anxiety to Thriving

Thomas and Panu discussed Thomas's new book, Surviving Climate Anxiety and its messages about coping with climate change by focusing on happiness and thriving. Thomas offered an inside view of the book and how it would benefit readers. He shared insights from his psychology background and emphasized the importance of understanding our emotions and identities. Panu and Thomas also talked about using storytelling to connect with readers and how personal stories can help us understand and tackle climate-related challenges. Join us for a thoughtful conversation about finding hope in difficult times.

Links

• Surviving Climate Anxiety Book
• Thomas Doherty on CBS News
• Book Excerpt on Oprah Daily: 3 Surprisingly Effective Ways to Combat Climate Anxiety
• Daphne Chouliaraki Milner How to Live With Climate Change Without Burning Out. Atmos

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala

Doherty: Well hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Pihkala: I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is our podcast, a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and other world issues and environmental issues and social issues and political issues and our personal lives. We asked this kind of provocative question about, what would it mean to be happy in the modern world?

Pihkala: Yes, and today we are starting a conversation on Thomas's new book. We have been mentioning that several times in the podcast episodes, but now it's actually coming out in October 2025 with the title Surviving Climate Anxiety, a Guide to Coping, Healing and Thriving.

I'm happy to have a paper copy of the galley, sort of the pre-version in my hands here in Finland and I got the electronic version slightly before. So in the cover, at least of this version, there's a green mountain and a human being on top of it raising their arms and hands to the air as I made it. So does that resonate with some of your feelings after the long arduous work of finishing the book?

Doherty: Thanks, Panu. I really appreciate that. You know, I hadn't thought about that interpretation of the cover, so I'm looking at it right now. And yes, that's that is that is that that's a true that's a good example of a feeling of a climate feeling that I inhabit a little bit, making it making it to the top.

It really, you know, it's also a we made it to the top because someone designed or created that image and suggested that image. So I am aware that behind the scenes, there was like a conversation even about the cover itself and the colors and the and the design, you know. But I do love the cover of the book.

And it was part of the mission of the book to be accessible and to bring some energy of calmness and lightness to these heavy topics. And so I think the art design of the cover is very successful in that regard. We could talk more if you like, you know, I've talked to different people about the cover and their interpretations of it, but it works well as a multi-level sort of stimulus, know, people look at it from different directions.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for the reflections and the text is also easy to pick out if you see this in a bookstore or at an internet bookshop. Having worked with publishing houses myself, I know that it's a collaborative effort and for some of you dear listeners it may come as a surprise that authors might not have a final say in relation to the title for example and I know that there was a discussion you had about that also and now climate anxiety and surviving that features heavily in the cover but of course this book is even more widely about living in the midst of the climate crisis so lots of synergies with this podcast and on the pages. There's also references to what we have been talking about here. How would you formulate it, Thomas, if someone asks you what's the sort of mission of this book or what would you especially like to bring to the world via this book?

Doherty: Yeah, I think the mission is, you know, the subtitle speaks to the mission, you know, a guide to coping, healing and thriving. because, the climate anxiety, just like we have talked about many times in the podcast, that that's sort of like is the stimulus. That's what brings you into the space sometimes, that natural sense of anxiety or fear or concern.

That's just the beginning of the journey. We talked about, could we call the book climate change and happiness or, you know, personal sustainability or, you know, so it was really important. I think what's most what's most there's two things that are unique about this book, I think one, the biggest thing is that I talk about being happy and I talk about thriving, which is often not talked about. Much of the discourse on climate change is still sort of stuck in the early stages of we're in a crisis and people are trying to raise the alarm and that is still needed for some for some parts of the population but for much of the world we've been alarmed for years and years and years so the need is for how do we recognize our our moments of happiness while we're while we're struggling.

I think that have that being risky and brave enough to talk about what does it mean to be happy? Just like again, with this podcast is really what's unique about the book. And then also the, you know, there's the sequencing of the book where it's coping. Yes. But then we, know, a lot of it is about identity, you know, and that's the missing factor for most people in their coping is that they haven't been able to clarify their identity about nature, their environmental identity, all their values and their personal history and their childhood experiences and all the things that form them are kind of still unprocessed. They're just in there. So it's a consciousness raising about, you have an environmental identity. So identity is so important. And that even among environmentalists and long-term activists, they haven't really had a chance to do that work. So I think that identity piece is really a key and I think once people have it, then they can use it and grow it on their own.

Pihkala: Yeah, totally agreeing on that. I have been reading and glancing a lot of books about eco-anxiety and climate anxiety, as you know, and we have talked about many of them in the podcast and even interviewed several authors of them. But I haven't seen as much emphasis on identity in other books. think it's a theme which is present in some other volumes, but I do think that's a strength here. And of course for a long time you've been a proponent of the importance of environmental identity and that is something we usually always discuss with the podcast guests also and this general idea of flourishing and striving for happiness also in these troubled times. If that would come from a person who is sort of bright-siding I would be quite critical about that. I've seen some texts on climate anxiety, which are more like, well, you know, don't be so anxious. Let's focus on the good instead. And that's part of the thing, but also the troubles need to be taken seriously. But you are taking the problems seriously and you have long life experience and history. So that I also think is one of the strengths of this book. That's even though there is this emphasis on flourishing, there's also understanding of the darker sides of life. So that's not really a question, but if you want to reflect on that, that's one possibility.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of parts in the book that are quite dark really in the sense of really trying to look honestly at problems in the world. You know, whole chapter four is on adapting so it's on doing your own personal climate. You know, your IPCC report, your individual problems with climate change report, which actually requires you to, you know, look at how, where you live in the world, what the threats are to you from weather and and upheavals and so it's actually going even deeper into some of these problems than we would even be comfortable doing typically. And then of course the healing section part three is the hardest in some ways the hardest one of the hard sections because that's what we talk about being a hostage politically to a lot of the political propaganda and corruption in the world and dealing with our anxiety, dealing with despair. Dealing with broken places and nature.

And if we're on a tour of the hard parts of the book, where I really waited to put the really, really hard stuff was in the challenges chapter toward the end. And that's really where we kind of list just the many challenges that people are likely to face when they're trying to make positive change, whether it be political corruption, whether it be ignorance or propaganda or entrenched habits or you know all of those things and that if I only wrote that book no one would want to read it you know if only you know and that's how it is with a lot of books that we get we feel like we need to read them out of duty out of some sort of grim duty.

I remember years and years ago, I saw a video from the thinker Theodore Roszak talking about eco-psychology in the 90s. And even then he was saying, you know, we're trying to find something beyond just grim duty, you know, and that was his term. So this book is trying to get trying to we're doing the duty of being honest and looking at these things for sure. And it can indeed be grim but it's not the only part of the process. There's a lot of place for joy and gratitude and contemplation and reverence and patience and compassion, you all those sorts of soft, softening feelings also.

Panu: Yeah, thanks for spending time on that and I love the wording about grim duty and the importance of being open to that full spectrum, not just the grimness of things. And speaking of the difficulties and the troubling, one interesting dimension here is that you draw from your experience in healthcare also. Well it's been a while I think now since you were working full time there but for example the harm reduction approach I don't think I've seen that linked with climate distress dynamics before so would you like to describe that to the readers?

Doherty: Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, the book does draw from a lot of influences that are not traditional because again, working when I was a graduate student, I ended up working a lot at hospitals and health psychology and behavioral medicine. So working with people that were dealing with medical illness, I did my dissertation research on a cardiac rehab unit. So it was people that were had suffered heart attacks or had open heart surgery and were trying to recover.

And anyone who's a who's actually a medical care provider, health care provider knows that many, many cases in the hospital or in the clinic are people that are anxious or depressed or coping. And so you need you need some skills for this. one and one of the big issues is addiction, people that are addicted to tobacco smoking or other behaviors, alcohol where sometimes you can't get them immediately to stop doing the behavior because they're addicted to it and because, you know, all the different structural things involved there.

Harm reduction is sort of like recognizing the harm and shrinking it as much as you can without assuming that it's going to go away entirely. And it's a generally very effective approach across all kinds of health behaviors, whether it be sexual transmitted diseases or alcoholism or drug use or really any problematic behavior. You shrink it. I mean, concretely, if you're smoking two packs of cigarettes a day, that's very terrible for your body and your lungs and will shorten your life. if you can shrink that to smoking one cigarette every six months, you know, at a party, then someone who's addicted to nicotine might be able to do that and still, you know, really be quite healthy.

So it's just flipping it around because often we try to eliminate the problems entirely. And that's a good strategy, but if you can't do that strategy, you need another strategy. That's where harm reduction comes in. And of course, with broadly more accurately with climate change and also metaphorically that the harm reduction model is helpful because we realize, well, I can't, I can't change the state of the world and I can't change the fossil fuel companies immediately or any of these things, but I can certainly do what I can to reduce the harm, shrink the impacts, and then I can also think about that in my personal life. I don't have to be perfect. So it's the opposite of perfectionism.

Pihkala: Yes, sort of restraining from the idea that all problems can be solved in the near future. That reminds me of the work of, for example, Vanessa Andreotti, who I was listening on online at an event in Helsinki last week. They make the very good point that part of the problem are our ways of reacting to problems, our ways of framing problems, including the idea that things can be neatly solved. But anyway, this connects with the idea of living with ambiguity and ambivalence, which we have been discussing a lot in the history of the podcast.

Doherty: Yeah, not all problems can be solved, period. Like life, aging, illness, infirmity. You know, it's challenging to live on the planet as human societies and groups in the best of times. And there are wicked problems and things like that. So it's really about engaging.

You know, part of the section one of the book is very, very basic and concrete. chapter one is how to think. So it's not what you should think, because in my book I'm not telling people what they should think. I'm not advocating for positions per se, but I'm telling them these are, I'm advocating for ways that you could think about things and ways to have, you know, metacognition to think about your thinking and, and be aware of assumptions you're making. So that's where like something like higher reduction comes in because it sort of changes your thinking. It gives you another way to look at problems.

That's a big part of this book is just, you know, getting better at your thinking, getting better at how you're feeling and how you're managing emotions, getting better how you're dealing with your nervous system and stress. So part one is very concrete. It's basic really, even if you're an expert, it's helpful personally to remind yourself to think about your thinking and think about your feelings.

Pihkala: Yeah, and very pragmatic also. So skills of living in a reality like this. And as you know, I'm always happy if people include at least implicitly existentialist themes of living with finitude and those limitations to the human condition. But for listeners, part one in Thomas’s book is called Coping. It has four chapters, Thinking, feeling, calming, adapting. Listeners of this podcast will find many common themes in our episodes also from these sections but also you'll find new information and new ideas and also practical ideas for how to calm oneself down and also how to reframe one's thinking like the upside down pyramid, which we have been discussing with some guests also in this podcast. Thomas, if you think about part one, what are some of the major takeaways? I know that you already mentioned some of them in our talk this far, but what's on your mind when thinking about part one?

Doherty: Yeah, well, you show up, Panu, of course, in the book a fair bit as well. One of the takeaways is the climate emotions wheel and different ways that we think about feeling. So that's an important one. You know, it's the idea of 360 emotions or, know, that we're able to be cosmopolitan in our emotions and really have the capacity to feel intense feelings of all kinds. So whether it be sadness or anger or frustration, you know, to feel what we're feeling as deeply and honestly as we can. That also includes calmness or boredom or reverence or patience. We then get into this idea of emotional regulation and that you can regulate your emotions. So question one is what am I feeling, which is very helpful. And you can spend a lot of time sorting that out with feelings vocabulary. Then the second is what do I want to be feeling, which is more of the aspirational question. Like, well, if I could access some feeling states I'd like to access this kind of feeling or that kind of feeling. So if I'm a parent and I'm spending time with my child on a nice sunny day, I want to access some feelings of joy and gratitude and presence. Or if I'm dealing with a problem, I want to activate my determination and my grit and my creativity. The third question is more of the existential question of what should I be feeling like what is the true feeling that I should inhabit here even if it's uncomfortable or difficult that's where the growth is so that's a good takeaway from the emotions chapter.

Pihkala: Totally agreeing and some of the sentences have lots of beautiful content like this one from its page 43. “As with breathing, we can come into awareness of our emotions by paying attention to them and assigning them words. We can become attuned to their rhythms and even influence their depth and pace”. This is the emotional regulation we discussed above. I like the images of becoming attuned and rhythm and influencing the depth and pace. It's related to this idea you mentioned that we can't fully control our emotions and feelings. It goes back to the surfing metaphor for example, which we sometimes have been discussing here. That as a surfer you can't control all the waves but there's a lot of skills that you can learn how to ride them.

Doherty: Exactly, even the even the master surfers that we marvel at they can't have they have no control over the wave itself at all. But they have control over their angle and approach to you know slipping on top of it. I'll tell you another thing that people have asked me this kind of question and the “how to think: points that I think is really interesting is this idea that we're all familiar with this idea. This is attributed to Albert Einstein that we cannot solve problems at the same level we created them. That's a famous saying from Albert Einstein, which is, you know, really helpful for us. It's sort of if we live in a certain way or had a certain practice that created problems, then often we'll have to create a different way of living or a new practice to not have the problems. Otherwise, we'll just keep recreating them over and over again. So that's a huge insight in itself. But one thing that came to me in the writing of the book was that we also cannot solve problems at the same level we discovered them and that was an insight for myself. you know, because when I discover a problem that I need often to then educate myself more about the issue and build my capacity. So I can then overcome it.

When we discover problems, we're often quite naive and we don't know the whole story. But if you stop there and just start trying to solve right there, you're kind of stuck in the same emotional and thinking system and you're not really growing. So, that I think is really helpful because you know for example as we've talked about many times there's these feelings of grief and loss and fear but that's what happens when we discover yet. That's the feelings of discovery that are happening but the solving requires often different kinds of feelings. So you can't solve problems at the same level of emotional functioning that you discovered them or the same level of intellectual functioning. So that I think is in a nuanced approach that is helpful for people in the book.

Pihkala: Hmm, yeah, very interesting and in my mind links with thinking about processes and trajectories which have been close to me as you know. And one very important dynamic in the book is that you include these case examples of people who come to talk to therapists, namely you, and you're able to illustrate many kinds of issues people may have in relation to climate matters and also their personal issues via these case examples. And of course, I know that you have been modifying them so that they are not completely recognizable as people but as combinations. Would you like to say a bit about that part of the book?

Doherty: Yeah, no, that's a great one. Let's let's focus on that for the last part of our conversation because that that's another interesting one because that was one of the case stories was one of the initially one of the hardest parts of the book for me to write and the most challenging at the outset and then became one of the more enjoyable processes of the book as well you know, because I'm a clinical psychologist and I'm really trained to be an academic writer and you know, I didn't go to a creative writing program. I went to a clinical psychology writing program. So, I did have literature and poetry experience in my younger life when I studied literature, but you know, graduate school, as anyone knows who's gone to graduate school, they'll beat all that out of you. All of that creativity will get driven out of you to write articles with footnotes and all this sort of academic scientific writing. And it isn't about telling stories really. It isn't about creating characters like in a novel or in a in a nonfiction narrative book. It's really about all the facts.

So even myself, I'd learned to like dispense with all the case studies when I read a book and just kind of drill down and figure out the facts. What is this writer trying to tell me? And I don't need to hear all these fluffy stories of people. But I had to really flip that around for this book because, rightly so, the publishers made it clear that if you want to speak to the public, Thomas, you need to tell stories. That's how people understand. And so luckily I had help. And then of course I did all the characters that are described in the book have a core of a real person or multiple cores of multiple people that were because what happened is I only have one book to write and I couldn't have it was in like war and peace where I could have 100 characters so I only have about 20 so I had to really condense and so some of the characters had to do double or triple duty you know to illustrate different aspects of the problem so there was no one person that I have met that could that could be the only character because we talked about so many things.

But once these characters started to get created they did you know much like in fiction? They took they take on a life of their own like you start to see “How would brandon the character do this? what would they say ?” I came to really love the love the case studies and you know again really nothing's in there that isn't true to life for people and I've actually had people think that some of the case studies were more real than they were. So I had to say, “well, these are composites”. So literally this person that lived in the world, I there isn't a person just like that. But it's based on several people. And just last night, someone, one of my friends who I've given an advance copy said, I really, they wanted to meet Brandon. They wanted to meet this character. I I'm sorry, well, you can't meet them because they don't exist for real. But they felt a kinship with the character.

Yes, it was our friend Greg Hill's birthday yesterday. Just a Panu it will know this. We interviewed Greg on the podcast. It was his birthday yesterday. So I got to spend some time with him and some other friends. We were talking about the book. So, yeah, he could have been because he could have easily in real life, there could be a character like that that would walk into the room and be known by these people because it was.

So anyway, that the characters are really and I think readers will naturally gravitate to certain characters because they resonate with the story and the character and, It's less shameful for us as readers to identify with someone else having a problem than to just put it only on myself. Like Christina, the character who's the really savvy political operator and climate and environmental advocate who really does well in politics and understands policy and all that really was harboring this secret shame that she wasn't comfortable going in the outdoors herself or hiking on a solo hike and just being competent in what she considered to be the outdoors or the wilderness and so really helping her to build that that confidence so she could go do her pilgrimage trip, you know, in Europe. It was really fun and rewarding to sort of, you know, put those stories together because I do think they'll be inspiring to people.

Pihkala: Yes, thanks for spending time on that and I do agree there's lots of things that people can resonate with and human interest will be generated and in relation to the style of the book this also has the benefit of you having to lecture much less because you can describe dynamics via stories and it's always pleasant when there's less lecturing and not to mention teaching in the boring sense. So that brings a lively character to the book and I think that was a great thing to do. Well, dear listeners, as we said this is the first one of several episodes which will be focusing on Thomas's new book Surviving Climate Anxiety soon available at your virtual bookstore. I hope you have enjoyed the conversation. I surely have. Like usually, I've been speaking from the Helsinki evening before the boys come home and there will be family sauna. Thomas how does the rest of the day look like for you? There might be some book related issues I suppose.

Doherty: Well, know, life goes on. actually have, I still see clients in my practice and I've got to go actually talk to one of my clients. So that's keeping me real, keeping me honest. Yeah. And I've got one of the practitioners. I know a young person is doing an internship here in Portland, so I'll get a chance to meet them. And so I get to support some younger, younger scholars and therapists and take my daughter to the dentist and you know do all the life things that we have to do. So that's my day but thanks Panu I really it's an honor to chat with you about the book and I really appreciate it.

Pihkala: Yes, feeling very glad and honored about that. That's to listeners. You can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. thanks to everyone who supports us at Patreon. That's an opportunity. And until we meet virtually next time, take care.

Doherty: Thanks, Panu.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

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Season 5, Episode 2: Lessons From the Climate Anxiety Counseling Booth with Kate Schapira

FromLessons From the Climate Anxiety Counseling Booth

“In 2014, when Kate Schapira first set up a Climate Anxiety Counseling booth in her hometown of Providence, Rhode Island, far fewer people were talking about climate change and its attendant anxiety, leaving those who couldn’t ignore climate change and the forces that cause it feeling frantic and alone. Seeking a way to reach out and connect, Schapira set up a Peanuts-style "The Doctor Is In" booth to talk about climate change with her community. Ten years and over 1200 conversations later, Schapira channels all she’s learned into an accessible, understandable, and aware guide for processing climate anxiety and connecting with others to carry out real change in your life and in your community.”

Join Kate in discussion with Panu and Thomas, and learn how you too can create safe spaces to talk, feel and dream about how we can master and move through the climate crisis.

Links

• Kate Schapira
• Lessons From the Climate Anxiety Counseling Booth
• Newsletter
• Bluesky
• Instagram

Support: World Central Kitchen

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: Well hello, I’m Thomas Doherty.

Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is our podcast to show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and other environmental issues. And if you've listened to us, you know that Panos in Finland and I'm in the U S and the West coast and we have guests. We talk about what it means to live in the modern world and ask this provocative question about what does it mean to be happy with climate change and other issues. And part of that is talking about how we feel about things, getting those emotions out, which isn't always easy. So I'm really glad to be able to talk about that today. And I'm honored to have a special guest.

Schapira: Hi, I'm Kate Shapira. I'm a writer and teacher who's become a climate listener out of my own climate anxiety in order to connect with my community. I live in Providence, Rhode Island on Narragansett land.

Doherty: Yeah, and Kate is someone I've been aware of. If you're aware of the literature at all and climate, climate psychology, she's had a great book on her climate anxiety counseling booth, we'll, which we'll talk about. Panu and I love meeting people that have been doing this work in different innovative ways. So it's really nice for us to connect and listener you can kind of join in listening on our conversation today. We're recording in the summer 2025. It's a beautiful day where I am right now, but there's a lot of troubles in the world as well, and it is a heat wave here. So, you know, we're enjoying ourselves and then we're carrying a lot of things. But that is our life. So Panu, do you want to get us started with Kate and our conversation?

Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Kate, also on my behalf. Lovely to be talking with you. I have been following your work since the late 2010s and have your book here with me in Helsinki. And dear listeners, we are also going to talk a bit about comics today, which we don't do often enough. Peanuts by Charles Schulz will be mentioned today and it will remain to be seen in what connection. But Kate, it would be lovely to start by talking a bit about your background. All of us have our own journeys towards being more aware of climate crisis and all the things that are related to it. Would you like to share with us something about your own journey and relation with the modern human world and climate change and emotions and so on?

Schapira: Absolutely. And also thank you both for having me. I'm so glad to be here. I feel like my sense of the climate crisis became acute in probably 2012, 2013. And there's sort of two simultaneous origin stories for it. The one that I tell the most often is about reading an article, an older article about oral bleaching and It was one of the first things that I had ever read that spoke about climate impact in the past tense. So not, this is going to happen if we don't do X, this could happen if we don't do Y. was like, this has already happened. And the ability of these reefs to regenerate and survive is in some cases in doubt and in other cases, we know that they cannot. And that really threw me. I cried a lot. I was at work. I was in my office waiting to speak with a student. We were in tears, went out into the hallway. My coworkers were very kind, but they didn't seem to understand why I was so upset. And I remained upset. I cried at work. I cried at dinner. I sat on the couch and cried. But you can't do that forever, Sooner or later, you're gonna need to figure out something else to do.

And for me, part of what got me unlocked from it, so my husband James Kuo is a cartoonist and illustrator, and we have a lot of these Peanuts by Charles Schultz's collections around. And so I was looking at one of those and I saw that Lucy, one of the characters, has this little booth that says, psychiatric help, five cents, the doctor is in. And that just kind of got mixed up in the duct tape ball of my mind to think what if I made a little booth and set it up in a public place in order to talk to people.

There’s some there was some precedent for that in my creative practice. I did a lot of poetry on demand when I first moved to Providence. So I'd set up with a little table and a little typewriter. Sometimes as part of like an arts festival or something at the museum, sometimes just for funsies. And people would come up and say, would you write me a poem about changing my name? Or would you write me a poem about this show that I love? Or would you write me a poem about faking my own death? Never gonna forget that one. And so I was in the habit of creating this like small collaborative spaces to have conversations with people that were a little bit out of the ordinary. And that helped me construct this little container to have some of these conversations. In downtown Providence is where I started right across from the big bus station that our city has at the entrance to a park.

That's the sort of official origin story. The less official one, which I have spoken about, but I do want to bring it forward here because it's a little it's a little heavier and some listeners may resonate with it more, is that before any of that happened I was corresponding with a poet friend who was very much in a state of grief and anger of the same degree to the one that I reached later. And I told her I couldn't talk about it. I asked her not to talk about it. which wasn't the right thing to do. But I didn't have a way to talk about it with her in a way that I could handle. And I pushed her away. When I started doing my own learning about how bad you could feel, what was going on, and then how to talk with people about it, I eventually did reach out to her again and say, “hey, I screwed this up and I'm really sorry. I wish I could have been there for you.”

Doherty: Yeah, that's beautiful. Thanks for sharing those multiple levels. Yeah, and think a lot of people could identify with both of those things. It's not easy. We've talked to people about it, know, an eco wake up or a waking up syndrome. And if you've had the syndrome and you've gone through it, then you certainly understand it. But it is kind of a paradigm shift to do this.

Yeah, there's a lot there to unpack. I think to bookmark just your, from therapy, we would say your “symptoms”, like you were crying that day. That was an intense emotional experience for you. And then I was really curious about how you did the booth. I know it's kind of like a performance art. I see it as like a performance art kind of thing. I've seen people do poetry on demand. I've always thought that would be a really challenging thing to do. It's like slam poetry or something where you have to make up something on the spot. You used your strength, like you channel your superpower. Panu, what do you think? Where are you interested in going with our conversation?

Pihkala: Warm thanks, Kate, for sharing all that, really appreciated it. There's lot of connections with various emotions and also people's journeys or trajectories. One of the tools I've been working with a lot over the last years is the so-called process model of ego anxiety and ecological grief. There are some connections to that, moving from semi-consciousness to awakenings and then the shocks included in that process. And I think all of us can resonate at least in relation to non-environmental themes with experiences of letting somebody down and perhaps not first realizing how badly we've let somebody down, but it's also very human when it comes to very difficult topics.

So just wanting to validate that also, that it's no wonder that many of us often have failed to really be there and listen. And I think that if one reaches a state of intention to later do something about it, that's very, very valuable. I'm also glad to hear that you reached out to the person later on. And would you like to share something about that later communication? How did you feel about it or how did it go?

Schapira: As I remember it it—it was pretty quick and light. She was at an event that I was doing not for the book, but for something else. And I saw her there and I spoke from the stage that I recognized this shortfall in how I'd responded to her. And she accepted that, which I appreciated.

Doherty: Did you feel some lessening of your own guilt then from that?

Schapira: Oh, no! You're asking the wrong guy. But I am glad I did it because I know, because it was the truth, which I think is important, and because it was the right thing to do.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for being open about that also. I'm reminded of a younger colleague and doctoral student, Anette from Finland, who is researching ego-emotions from a psychoanalytic perspective, which is not so common these days in Finland. Other schools of psychology are more prominent, but she has a great story of talking with climate issues with her aunt who first was totally unable to listen to any of that. But then she tried to channel psycho-dynamic wisdom, building a sense of safety and acceptance and speaking gently from one's own experience. And then one day in a sauna, which is a typical Finnish place for deep conversations and deep sweating, the aunt said that, “I've realized that I've been so horrified by the whole theme of climate change that I haven't been able to take in what you have been saying”. So that was really profound I think that she's been talking about this openly with her aunt, Annette (Mansikka-aho is her last name) the relationship of her own to climate matters didn't change completely but I regard it as a great psychological and psychosocial achievement that she was able to vocally say what kind of psycho dynamics were present. So that took some time but wanted to mention since the theme of fifficult conversations is much present here. Would you like to continue Kate by telling us and the listeners a bit about how has the journey with the booth has been for you? You set up a booth and what happens with people?

Schapira: I will tell you that, but I’d like to first response to something you said about difficult conversations. I'm Jewish. I come from a Jewish family. And I had a conversation last year with my cousin. have a boy cousin who's the same age, about how to talk to the relatives on his side of the family about Palestine. When he would try to bring it up, people would become very closed and very insistent on the things that they had learned and the things that they had taught that were a justification of violence, increased violence from the Israeli government and military. And we were sitting on the roof of the building where he lives and it was a hot night, it was summer. And I remember asking, you know, well, how did you come to change your mind? How did you start to know that this wasn't right, that this wasn't something that should continue?

And he talked about stuff that he'd read by Palestinian writers, starting to read some history, getting a picture of life there that he hadn't had access to as a young man growing up in an American Jewish community. And I said, well, did you used to think some of the stuff that your other family thought and thinks now? And he said, yeah. And I said, well, do you think that maybe it would work to say, hey, I used to think that too, or I used to feel that way too. And this is the thing that made me change my mind. And I think he's done some of that. I think some of it has worked and some of it hasn't. know, people are deep in, and I think that the conversation that you relate about your colleague and her aunt really shows this, people are deep in what they don't wanna know, what they don't wanna feel even more. Right? They don't want to feel that. People don't want to feel that they were wrong about the commitments that they've made or the courses of action that they've been taking. And so offering people an opportunity to watch you have been wrong and make a shift, I think is a great gift. And even if people aren't ready to accept that in the moment, it's still a a good offering to make.

Back to your question about the booth, sometimes that's a tactic that I will use. I will use that method. If somebody comes up saying something that I don't get a lot of like climate deniers, occasionally I will get some climate change trivializers. Sometimes I will also, people will come up just thinking something that isn't true, like thinking that something is more important than it is or less important than it is. And so that's a moment when I might make that invitation and use that method to say like, yeah, I used to think that too. And here's how I came to change my mind.

And an example of that, again, if you don't mind my saying, is that, I'm somebody who came to quote unquote, “environmentalism:, the way that I think a lot of upper middle class white Americans do, which is what I am. You know, I read Ranger Rick magazine, which is like a nature magazine for kids listeners my age might remember that. You know, I lived in a place where there was a lot of like plant and creature activity and my mom and I would enjoy the plant and creature activity together. We'd walk in the woods.

We still walk around the yard and check out what's going on with all of the plants and creatures every time that I go home. But I did not develop (and through the booth, I did develop and other things that I'll talk about in a moment). How humans also have a responsibility to one another in this moment. I had a pretty strong sense of like human nature relations and the responsibility that humans might have to the more than human world and the living systems that we're part of, but I really didn't have a strong corresponding sense of how other humans were also part of that system and how part of addressing the wound, right, that exists in our present moment is setting right human to human relations in conjunction with setting right human and more than human relations.

Doherty: I'm glad you talked about the background in the Ranger Rick because that's always another of our questions is the deeper background, the seeds of this kind of stuff. We have these deeply held values that we take over our lives and when that coral bleaching story broke through like it really pierced some of those values that you had developed over time. I think people are practically cursed with these deeper values. I'm sure you find similar deeper backgrounds when talking to children and elders and parents at your booth. So your background is as a writer, a poet, an educator, I assume, right? Professor maybe. When you did the booth, did you have any counseling training? Did you see it as counseling or did you see it more as just, “I'm just gonna do this creative thing.”

Schapira: Well, the counseling is obviously partly a joke. It's a reference to the peanuts cartoon. And one of the things that I realized, again, I didn't go into it thinking this, but I realized this as I continued to do it, is that Lucy isn't able to offer psychiatric help any more than I am. Lucy isn't a psychiatrist. Lucy is a child. She is wildly unequal to the situation that she is making claims about. And that is true for many of us in this in this climate moment, right? In what Grace Lee Boggs calls like “this time on the clock of the world”, many of us are feeling profoundly unequal to the situation that we're in. And so the joke of the sign ended up being kind of funnier even than I originally imagined because it was a way to say, yeah, I don't have all the answers or even like two, but I have some questions. Maybe we can ask those questions together.

I will also say that I had had, not, I wouldn't call it counseling training, but I've had some listening training. I staffed the sexual assault hotline when I was in college. As a teacher, I'm often listening to what my students are telling me about what they're dealing with and what they would like to, trying to help them figure out what they would like to do about it. Not in a counseling way, but just in a like, I'm,

receiving the full picture of what you're dealing with kind of way. And I got a lot better about that as the years of the Booth have gone on. I think when at the beginning, I was maybe more inclined to give advice or to argue very much too early in the process. And as I think many therapists do also, although again, that's not the training that I have, I got better at first making sure that the person who's talking with me knew that I was hearing what they were saying.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah. And I wasn't I wasn't implying that your work was less than because you're not a training as a counselor. There's a funny thing about some of this work because this is just human conversation. You know, it's just human listening. So it's kind of like emotional intelligence is another way you could have called it emotional intelligence booth about climate change or something. And then yes, we have these specialty areas, but then a lot of artists do work with the public that is therapeutic. Like it's not therapy but it's therapeutic. I'm thinking of that artist Marina Abramovic which I think you know who just sits with people and people line up just to sit and be you know share presence that's so profound and all that kind of stuff. Where do you find yourself going with your family or your personal life, your creative writing or your book or you know where where's your edges now? Let's shrink it down to whatever little micro edge that you want.

Schapira: My God, that's such a large question. One thing is when I had been doing the booth for a few months, and this is chronicled in lessons from the climate anxiety counseling booth as well, someone came up to me and said, we're having a meeting tonight about stopping this liquid natural gas facility, this liquefied natural gas facility in the Port of Providence, is toward the southern part of the city. A lot of industry is already there. It's also very close to where many people live and it's very close to the major hospital complex in Providence, including the only level one trauma center in the state. And they want to increase the amount of liquefied natural gas that's flowing through. And they want to build this facility that is in the floodplain and is going to worsen the risk for constructions that are in the floodplain. And they want to run highly explosive methane fuel through it. Do you want to come to this meeting and talk about what we're going to try to do to stop it? And so that was the beginning of the thing that I was talking about before realizing that part of this work is figuring out how to protect and sustain the lives of other humans, as well as of coral and squirrels and turtles and redwood trees, all of which I love, and learning that many of the same things that sustain those things are also helpful and necessary to the sustenance of other people. Many of the same things that threaten those living creatures also threaten the lives and sustenance of other human people.

I continue to be involved in trying to support the lives and sustenance of other human people.in the place where I live. I'm connected with a number of community efforts to do that, which I can talk about a little bit more if you're interested. So that's one thing that I'm doing. I've become very attentive to, and to some extent involved in things like comprehensive plans for housing and construction and infrastructure in the city where I live. I sometimes say that climate anxiety is a community problem with community solutions.

And what I mean by that is partly, let's speak with each other. Let's listen to each other. Let's find out what each other are dealing with and let's be responsive to that. But it also means things like rent stabilization and building affordable, energy efficient housing. It also means things like creating a path to that housing for people so that they're not going to have to sleep outside and then get swept away in the next hurricane or die of heatstroke in the next heat wave. This is a community task that we're taking on. If people are on the move because of climate effects on the place where they live, I would like there to be enough housing in the place where I live to accommodate everyone who's already here and to accommodate the people who are coming in so that they won't be feeling a scarcity that is threatening and not necessary. So there's inner work that you can do, and I encourage people to do it, that has to do with questioning your feelings of scarcity, recognizing feelings of sufficiency, recognizing feelings of sufficiency. Learning what you value and appreciate about the place where you live and want to sustain, learning what aspects of that might be malleable or you might be able to get that sustenance and satisfaction in a different way. That's all inner work and relational work. It's something that you can talk about with other people. It's something that you can invite other people into. You can have social times about it. It's also something that needs attention at structural, infrastructural levels and the structural and infrastructural work is harder to do if you haven't done the relational work.

One of the things that struck me as was starting to read your book, Thomas, is you really stress the reason to contend with and incorporate your emotional responses to climate impacts is so that you can show up as your best self with the people around you in the moment that we're in. And so I think the value of having a lot of these conversations and the importance of having a lot of these conversations is so that when we have to contend with things like housing policy or a city budget, we're doing so as our most generous and present selves.

Pihkala: Thanks for all that, Kate. think that's wonderfully put. And the book, Lessons from the Climate and Exciting Counseling Booth has a really powerful social dimension and kind of eco-social justice dimension in it. And in my view, very nice weaving together the inner and the outer and including some of the spiritual aspects also. I don't know if you would call it that yourself, but that's what I would call it. And discussing many emotions, including the role of anger and determination and emotion regulation by getting angry on purpose at times, which is a nice theme and not very much discussed yet in relation to ego emotions or polycrisis emotions or whatever we call them. But I think that the theme of being with people where they are is a sort link between what you did with the booth and what you're doing in the social networks and avoiding hierarchies and that sort of thing, but drawing from people's different skillsets and expertise. Warmly endorsing all that myself and learning. More from it and listeners, if you want, connect with earlier episodes with Bob Doppelt and Susie Moser, for example, who are participating in similar kinds of movements.

Schapira:

Yeah, I find a lot of those frameworks very useful also in thinking about how to have these conversations with people and connect and be attentive. I'm very grateful for that. Also really, really appreciative. Many of the people that I quote in my book, but I've also been really appreciating the book. I've also been really appreciating the work of Bayo Akomolafé, who writes about a kind of undoing of certainty and an undoing of human supremacy. And many other writers and thinkers, Kyle Powys Whyte of the Potawatomi Nation writes a lot about working with the urgency that many people feel in the face of climate impacts like this is happening, it's barreling down on us, it's already injured the place where I live or it's already injured people that I know I have to do something, why aren't we doing something? And the request to be more attentive to what is already being done, what has already been done.

And I'm thinking, I'm trying to make sure I paraphrase him correctly, because I really do encourage people to be attentive to this, notice when your own urgency is maybe setting you up for a mistake, to focus your effort in a place that won't be effective or that will harm someone else. The comparison I sometimes use is like, if you're running to catch a train, right? You might bump into someone and the person you bump into might be, let's say, an elderly person who's carrying a lot of bags. It's not worth it to catch the train. It's better to help that person with their bags instead of bumping into them.

Doherty: Yeah, that's great. We always say we wish we had more time. We're coming toward the end of our time. But this has been a great little, thanks, Kate. It's been a great little inward insight into your life. So many themes, but listeners I just want to kind of try to encapsulate this a little bit. There's this hero's journey image that we know about. I talk about it a bit in my book and the master of two worlds is at the end of your whatever journey you did, you have to come back to your community and do something with this knowledge.

I think Kate, the idea that you went through the counseling booth phase and now you're working on these real things in your community, I think makes perfect sense. And I think that's what's going to be the thing for listeners. There'll be times when we're learning and on our quest to figure this out. And then we're like, OK, now I need to enact something.

Kate, seems to me you threw yourself into that as an artist or poet, you risked throwing yourself into that booth, you know, like without a net, like doing a trapeze without a net. So that was like the hero's journey there. And then Lucy, I need to go back and look at peanuts cartoons because I remember Lucy being a bit ornery and she would hold the football for Charlie Brown and he would try to kick it and she'd pull it away. So, sometimes we think we're going to kick something and that we land on our butt. Anyway, this has been really great.

Listeners, we're going to put some links to Kate's work and, you know, people like Bayo Akomolafé who we need to get on our podcast. And there's all these cool thinkers out there. So we'll put some links and Kate, we'll get links from you and this episode will come out soon and we'll get it out into the world.Kate, thanks for your time coming from the East Coast and Panu from Finland. I'm going to head off and do some of my own manifesting work here. Where are you all going now for your days?

Schapira: Ihave to print something out for somebody and then I'm actually going to do some climate listening down in Warren, Rhode Island, which is a town in elsewhere in the state that's really menaced by sea level rise and stormwater flooding. And they're thinking about who will be able to stay in their homes and are there streets that are going to become less navigable as time goes on? The predictions are that there are going to be parts of town that are less inhabitable. And so talking with people about what neighbors can do, what the town might be demanded to do, and working with a local organization to meet regularly to plan those things together.

Pihkala: Wow, that sounds excellent and really enjoyed the conversation with you, Kate and Thomas, as always. My evening is first for an hour discussing contemplative practices and Earth awareness at an international working group and then I'm heading for the sauna with the boys. So that's my evening.

Doherty: All right, long day. Well, anyway, we're all doing our part and listeners, I know you're all doing your part too. So be well, you can find us at climatechangeathappiness.com and Kate and Panu and listeners, take care.

Schapira: Thank you both so much for having me.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

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image credit | **Juliane Liebermann**

Season 5, Episode 1: Youth and Intergenerational Connections – With Sarah Newman and Larissa Dooley of the Climate Mental Health Network

Thomas and Panu were joined by Sarah Newman and Larissa Dooley of the Climate Mental Health Network. Sarah discussed her long-standing personal experience with eco-anxiety, and how it influenced her life choices and led her to establish the Network. Larissa, Director of Research and Programs, first learned of climate change's psychological effects during her graduate studies; the increasing frequency of wildfires in California later motivated her to devote her research to addressing the mental health impacts of climate change. The group discussed how Panu’s insights on climate emotions and grief have been influential on the Network’s programs. Thomas emphasized the importance of sharing personal journeys and highlighted the inspiring nature of stories that led to the mission-driven work many individuals undertake in response to climate threats. See the show notes for helpful resources for teachers and parents from the Climate Mental Health Network.

Links

• Climate Mental Health Network
• CMHN Resources:
• Climate Emotions Wheel
• Toolkit for Middle School Educators

• Climate Change and Kids' Well Being: A New Guide for Parents and Other Caring Adults

• Future Climate Collective

• Future Council Documentary

Transcript

[on vacation]

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imaged credit | **Ted Johnsson**

Season 4, Episode 28: Remembering Joanna Macy

Thomas and Panu reflected on the profound impact of Joanna Macy on their understanding of environmental emotions and activism. Thomas highlighted Macy's role in transforming environmental engagement from an intellectual pursuit to a visceral, emotional experience. He shared a personal story of meeting Macy and read an excerpt from his new book describing one of her workshops he attended as a graduate student. Panu reflected on his experience of Macy's legacy, noting her influence on modern conceptions of eco-anxiety and empowerment, and her integration of Buddhism, ecology, spirituality and systems thinking. The discussion also highlighted some of the challenges adapting Macy’s methods for broader audiences and pitfalls of idealizing Macy’s “The Work that Reconnects” and its cultural background and assumptions. The episode concluded by encouraging listeners to engage with Joanna Macy’s transformative teachings for themselves.

Links

• Trip Gabriel (2025, July 23) “Joanna Macy, Who Found a Way to Transcend ‘Eco-Anxiety,’ Dies at 96” New York Times
• Rebecca Solnit (2025, July 21) In Honor of Joanna Macy, 1929-2025

Transcript

[on vacation]

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image credit | **Annie Spratt**

Season 4, Episode 27: On Raising Anti-Doomers with Ariella Cook-Shonkoff

In this enlightening episode, Thomas and Panu sat down with Ariella Cook-Shonkoff, a licensed therapist and author of Raising Anti-Doomers: How to Bring Up Resilient Kids Through Climate Change in Tumultuous Times (2025). Ariella shared her journey from motherhood amidst California wildfires to writing a book that empowers parents to foster resilience in their children. Panu Thomas each reflected on their own parenting, and enjoyed hearing of events on Ariella’s “eco-timeline” like her childhood outdoor experiences in Connecticut and her opportunity to meet one of her idols, Jane Goodall. Join us and learn more about Ariella’s positive approach to parenting in the climate era.

Links

• Ariella Cook-Shonkoff
• Selected Writings
• 2025 Raising Anti-Doomers How to Bring Up Resilient Kids Through Climate Change and Tumultuous Times
• Salon 2023 Grieving together, and also apart: A Jewish American wrestles with identity, belonging and trauma
• Grist 2021 Here’s how to talk with your kids about climate anxiety
• Glamour 2019 I’m Not a ‘Natural Mother’—And That’s Okay

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

If you appreciate the Climate Change and Happiness podcast, be sure to preorder Thomas Doherty’s new book, Surviving Climate Anxiety: A Guide to Coping, Healing, and Thriving available at an online bookseller near you.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is our podcast, a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about issues like climate change, changes in the planet, changes in the weather, and changes in our lives and in our families. That’s our territory to talk about and Panu and I get to meet a lot of people in the world and collaborate with people. And today, we have a person that we both know and I'm really proud to introduce a special guest.

Ariella Cook-Shonkoff: Hello, my name is Ariella Cook-Shonkoff, everyone. I'm a licensed therapist, both an art therapist and an eco-therapist based in Berkeley, California. And most recently, I have a book coming out called Raising Anti-Doomers: How to Bring Up Resilient Kids Through Climate Change in Tumultuous Times.

Doherty: We're really glad to talk to Ariella. She’s someone we've both interacted with. Ariella has been in an eco and climate conscious therapy group that I did some time back. It’s a personal pleasure for me to see colleagues writing books and putting themselves out. I was able to look through Ariella's book and we'll talk about that. But it's nice to see that this work is getting various treatments in people's lives and people are moving forward on this and in therapy. So, a lot of good things are in the pipeline here. Panu, do you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Warm welcome, Ariella, also on my behalf. Lovely to have this chance to discuss with you and I really love the wide range of content in your book. Before digging deeper into that, we'd like to ask you something about your journey to becoming a person who wrote this kind of book. Would you like to share something, how has it been with you and the modern human world?

Cook-Shonkoff: Absolutely. Well, I guess this journey began for me back in 2018 when I came into motherhood and around the time that wildfires were intensifying in Northern California. I had just had my second daughter and I was returning to work after maternity leave. There were nearby wildfires, and the air was thick with smoke. It was this kind of combination of going back to work and sitting in an office with clients where no one was really talking about what was going on outside and also the vulnerability I felt inside leaving my child under these circumstances. There’s a sense of safety, even though, where I lived, we were fortunate, and we didn't have direct impacts. You feel like, am I safe to leave my child? Can I really separate from them? And isn't it strange that no one's talking about the elephant in the room right now? So, that brought me on a journey into writing about it and I'd already been freelance writing for some time about motherhood mostly, but I started to really focus more on climate and parenthood. It's eventually led into this book project and the book that's finally coming out this year.

Pihkala: Thanks for sharing that and there's a lot that I can also personally resonate with. My kids are just a couple of years older than yours. Also in Finland, what Lindsay Galway has called ‘climate of silence’ was quite heavy and also silence around the emotional dimensions of those issues. Can I still ask you if you look back to your own childhood and youth, what role did the modern human world play for you, or did it have a role back then?

Cook-Shonkoff: I love this question, Panu, thanks for asking it. Yeah, it had a starring role in my childhood, actually. I grew up in a small town in Connecticut that felt pretty rural, and I spent a lot of free time in the woods behind my house, with the kids in the neighborhood, by the creek, I was out. And it was a value of my family, so my parents took us on hikes. That was pretty common for us. I was just outside a lot, in the modern human world. I loved animals at an early age. Actually, funny enough that you asked this question because in writing the book, I realized how this is reintegrating my life in adulthood in a way. I even went through a period of activism in my teenage years to do with animals and environment. So, it's really been a common thread.

Doherty: What kind of activism were you involved in when you were younger?

Cook-Shonkoff: Well, I was the only member of my family to become vegetarian at age 14 when I learned a bit more about factory farming. I started writing then for junior and senior year op-eds in my local paper, just a couple. But I then went on to become one of the presidents of the environmental club, and we did various things, such as picking up trash around town and eventually going to marches—well, maybe was more in college, now that I think about it. But yeah, we held Earth Day events in high school. We were active. This is really cool. I don't know if this is in my book, but Jane Goodall, her organization, Roots and Shoots, was this youth environmental program that opened in my town, Ridgefield, Connecticut. I was interviewed on the panel with her and got the privilege of meeting her in this interview and it was really cool. So yeah, there was a lot.

Doherty: That's great. We’ve done this eco-timeline kind of idea where you can trace your life. So, writing this book really does fit onto your timeline.

Cook-Shonkoff: Absolutely, yeah. As I went deeper into this work, I realized how it harkened back to my early years. And just my emotional experience throughout this, even listening to Greta Thunberg's words, it conjured up in me some part of my younger self that felt like her in a different way because it was a different time but felt indignant. Like, what are grown-ups doing? Why don't they care more? That’s a really good point about that eco-timeline. I love that tool, Thomas. So, thank you for introducing that to me.

Doherty: Yeah. Okay, so here's a standard question you'll probably get a lot going forward. But with Raising Anti-Doomers, I love the title because it really puts out a message. It puts out a call-to-action kind of thing of all the ways of thinking about this topic. How did it coalesce into this idea of raising anti-doomers? I know that's a big question, but what comes up for you about that?

Cook-Shonkoff: It's interesting because you don't know about what it's like to write a book until you get there. And I will say that as I got to the end of my book, in what's probably now the last chapter, I was talking about how we can do this and what's this positive frame for how to raise kids in this way. It's almost ‘Teflon-like,’ to be strong and resilient and to be able to withstand the bumps and the turbulence and all the uncertainties that exist in the world right now. I'd love to take credit for selecting it for my title, but I can't because it was plucked by my editor who had that foresight. And I actually love the title. I wasn't sure at the beginning. It's a strong title, and I think it's great in the end. The scope of the book is broader than climate, which I also appreciated heading in that direction. It wasn't my original intent, but that's how it developed.

Pihkala: Of all the rich contents in the book, if we would start by helping the listeners to get some overviews or what would you say are some of the fundamental principles or messages in the book?

Cook-Shonkoff: I'll mention that there's some graphics in the book, some illustrations, that I had a lot of fun conceptualizing, but I think really helped the reader go through the book. One being the parent identity spiral. So, it's like suddenly you're a parent and kind of what happens along the way. I'm not going to go through all the steps, but what happens along the way to become an engaged parent, focused on social issues, including climate. Like, how do you kind of stay engaged. I think that's an important one.

I think that the main takeaways, if I were really to boil them down to three simple messages would be that number one, it starts with you. It starts with the parent and being willing to go into the darker emotional places and really grapple with their feelings, not to avoid or make excuses, but really to go there and be able to kind of find ways to regulate themselves so that they're able to co-regulate their kids. So, I think that's number one, it starts with you.

And number two, I would say is to do something and make it sustainable and not be so perfectionist about it or well, is this really enough or I've got to do all of this for it to be worth it. It's so easy to talk yourself out of any action, but it could be so small. I'm sure we could all come up with some examples, but something around the household. Maybe it's just not getting food out from restaurants in the takeout packages because it's the single-use plastic and reducing that, or maybe it's on a grander scale or writing a letter or going to protest, but it could be really small. I think that's important to recognize.

The third point is really to keep coming back to the source of what replenishes you, what builds resilience. I have a lot of self-care exercises in the book. There's that self-care acronym, which is kind of a riot, but that was for my own personal development of it. I came up with this and was like, oh my gosh, maybe this is something I should throw into the book, because it's kind of fun. But whatever it is, spiritual, creative, physical, that really grounds you and brings you back to yourself so that you can reset when you get off the rails, which can happen.

Doherty: Yeah, did you create the ideas for the book with your own children first or did some of these ideas just come out of your family life? I know with the book that I worked on, the heart of it was really my training that I did with the public and different slides and different images that were resonant. And then of course you have to explain it all in the book. But did it start with things that you had figured out with your kids?

Cook-Shonkoff: I'd say it was a smattering here and a smattering there because I work with kids in my practice so there's some from there, some from family life, some that literally evolved alongside the book or came out of the pandemic because that was a time I was reorienting and doing things differently.

Doherty: Yeah, I've been looking through your book and now I'm more attentive to the figures because you've talked about them, but maybe we could talk about this one and literally unpack it. The pellet, the climate emotions pellet—when I saw that, I thought, that’s a really kid friendly image. Let me not say more, let me have you say what the climate pellet is because I think listeners may appreciate it.

Cook-Shonkoff: Oh my gosh, it's such a funny one. If you remember dissecting owl pellets in school, which we certainly do in the States, I don't know about where you are, Panu.

Doherty: So, owl poop basically.

Cook-Shonkoff: It's the regurgitated pellet. An owl eats different animals whole, like these tiny moles or whatever they are. But they have all the bones in the fur, and everything goes down into the stomach and eventually they regurgitate these pellets that have the bones and the fur. Anyway, I did take inspiration from childhood in different ways, and this is after I came up with the concept of the climate emotions pellet, but my child literally brought home an owl pellet and dissected it for homework on the kitchen table. So, this really does happen. But the idea being that there's a lot of different feelings that we're experiencing to do with climate change or many of us are experiencing and it's a mess. It's like a hot mess that's complex and we don't know what's what. And so, I like the idea of imagining these tweezers, like a tool in the science lab, and you're plucking out emotions and trying to distill, okay I'm looking at the illustration now. Okay, this grief that I'm experiencing or what about the awe that I sometimes feel when I'm out in nature. There are all these different feelings like the anxiety that I feel about the state of the world. And so, trying to distill those emotions, it’s like that emotional granularity idea. Then, once you can identify them and know what they are, there's some relief in that. I think it can be really overwhelming to have an unidentified mass in you. And then it's the idea of metabolizing emotions too, right?

Doherty: Oh yeah, for sure. What do you think, Panu, this idea of regurgitating? That must have some resonance in all the different research you've been doing lately.

Pihkala: Yeah of course. The Climate Emotions Wheel in which I cooperated with the Climate Mental Health Network is of course one very practical tool for observing various emotions and being able to name them even roughly. Emotional granularity is a growing thing discussed in climate emotion research. I think that's great to provide resources for people to do that. In the book, you're also looking at major questions about life and the world that people are asking, of course, for children and young people, that's part of human development. But being a parent, well, first of all, becoming a parent is quite a cosmic event to borrow a wording from Bayo Akomolafe, this very interesting thinker who has also written on the ecological crisis and becoming a father and many things. And then also realizing that kids will have to face existential challenges which can evoke existential questions and emotions in parents also. Perhaps that might be the next topic. Would you like to say something about these developmental challenges and big existential questions?

Cook-Shonkoff: Yeah, that's a big one. You're holding, as a parent, some of these existential realities of where we're at and for yourself, first and foremost. But then, when you have a child or children more innocent, kind of vulnerable lives. I think it can invoke more fear, but it also can really motivate you in a certain way. I really wanted to speak to parents. I had been speaking with somebody, Jill Kubit, who's the founder of Our Kids Climate. And she said, we're uniquely motivated as parents to do something about this. There's a unique motivation. Many people without kids are very motivated but there's that sense that you have of your heart and your desire for your worry about your own child. Are they going to be okay? What's going to happen 30 years from now or 40 years from now? What's the world going to be like? How do I raise them in a way where I can prepare them as best I can for the challenges that are unknown. I think that there's a real delicate space there and an opening and also an opportunity because I think ultimately parents want to engage and want to do right by their kids. They want to take care of them.

Pihkala: Thank you for sharing that. I think that's very wise. There's been this discussion in books related to the topic about whether these sorts of calls to be an honorable parent or grandparent work and if so, what style is needed. For example, George Marshall, the climate communicator, discussing these ads which are playing with the Second World War framings like what did you do in the war, daddy or grandfather and then applying that to the climate crisis. Well, I'm not very fond of the war metaphor here, but Marshall, for example, is quite critical of this kind of messaging because it operates so heavily with a guilt and shame possibility. And for some parents, it can cause a desire to distance themselves if they can. So, I would personally agree with what you say about the inner desire to provide a more sustainable world for the offspring. But then in situations where communication happens, it seems that people need a lot of safety so that they can go there. Perhaps guilt or the threat of guilt and shame may do it for someone, but I'd go more for the safety dimension. But anyway, I wanted to say that aloud and hear what you think of it, Ariella.

Cook-Shonkoff: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. There was a period where environmentalists had some shame and blame, like is that going to get more people involved in the environmental movement, at least in the US? And that didn't work very well. I don't think that's the wisest path. I think that tapping into parents’ or families’ values or motivations is the way in. It’s a more hopeful and positive approach rather than saying, come on, you got to do it or we're all going to die or we're all going to suffer. That’s going to shut people down, right? I mean, you can speak to this too.

Doherty: Yeah. Your book doesn't make that mistake. It doesn't sound preachy or guilt-laden at all, which is really nice. I really like images like the pellet because it's very kid friendly and I like it's a catharsis to spit out a pellet and it’s not intellectual, it’s very visceral. Like we do have to spit out these emotions and really look at them. So, I think that that really works well. The nice thing about your book is that it gets back to the body all the time and stress and physiology. You’ve done a great service. Then, this idea of a parenting club seems to be a way to not be isolated. Would that be the idea? What would be an example of a parenting club?

Cook-Shonkoff: Well, I'm speaking really broadly about anyone who's a parent or a caregiver, who's taking care of kids is part of this network of parents, this parent club. It's massive. I said in the intro, and I heard this from someone else. It was passed on to me when I was pregnant with my first child. Like, what's the parent club? I always remembered that, and I feel so connected to other parents in many ways and I continue to feel that way. I think there's so much potential in this social network. There's so much potential and I know we all have our different skills that we can bring to the table. I think on community levels, I've been interested in exploring that. I won't get started about all my local endeavors, but coming together and caring about something and saying, what are we going to do about this? And hey, what skills do we have? And what do we bring to the table? And then not only that, by having the parent club level, but then having an intergenerational level where we can involve our kids.

Last weekend, I was out in my park across my street with other parents and kids in my community. We were making signs, art, and stuff about democracy. We had art making music on and we're going to see what we do with the posters. We might use them in a rally or hang them on our garage door. There’s much that can be done. I do think that if we can get a groundswell of parents who are super motivated saying, I want this for my child, I want this for future generations, I want to leave a lasting contribution, generativity, right? That whole idea of making the world a better place or leaving something behind, like a legacy. If we can get all that together, then wow, I think it could be a tremendous boost to the climate movement and social movements in general, whatever the causes.

Pihkala: Yeah, that's very wisely put. One thing I really appreciate in your book is that you're not just recommending action as important as that is, but you're also recommending parents to model engagement with emotions and model rest and self-care. And after all, self-care has a strong history in the work of Black feminists, who argued that it's a very political emotion because it's providing resources for those opposing injustice. Would you like to say something more about this sort of encouragement to build resources and practices for rest and self-care?

Cook-Shonkoff: Yeah, I think it goes back to this point I was making earlier about coming back to the source. As motivated as parents are, we are to do something but if we burn too hot, we're going to burn out. And so, it's essential to temper that with self-care, whatever you do. I don't love that term; I think it's really overused. But it does say what it is. So, can you find ways to ground yourself, to reset yourself periodically. I think on a regular basis and it’s best if you can schedule that in and really know like, I'm going to do this on Monday or this on this day and have several practices a day if you can. It can be really short. It can be a five-minute meditation. It can be a walk around the block. It can be listening to music. Anything that brings you joy or spending time with somebody that you care about. Be critical to take that time and ideally, find ways in whatever way you can. I know that not everyone can access it for different reasons. There's barriers, unfortunately, in our society and inequities, but do whatever is possible, because that reset will mean everything in the long term and being able to do this work for the long haul.

Doherty: Yeah, it’s great. This has been really great because it's helped me to really get clear on the book and it’s anti-doomer so it's not just climate. Like you say in your subtitle, resilient children in tumultuous times. It really is the best strategy, which is not to focus on one threat, but to focus more on, like I say, your life is the news and start with your family, your life and make that a good place and then let it ripple out into the world. Your book does have, I think you talk about it, this internal locus of control where you're bringing it back into the family and into the body. So that's really great. Well, congratulations. We've got to wrap up here today. What's your next adventure for the book or your next challenge that you're getting ready for?

Cook-Shonkoff: Oh my goodness. It's like I'm just coming out of this adventure so I'm not even sure I could tell you what it is, but I think I'm curious to see what emerges.

Doherty: Well, you’ll have, I guess what they call in the US, a soapbox. You'll have an opportunity to talk about this stuff and there will be a window where you can bring attention to this through interviews and stuff. So good luck with all that.

Cook-Shonkoff: Thank you so much.

Pihkala: Yes, it’s easy to agree on that and warm thanks for the rich conversation and all the wisdom here. Dear listeners of the podcast, if you want to connect with some earlier episodes which deal with similar kinds of themes, there's one with Jade Sasser, for example, and one with Britt Wray. There will always be so much more to talk about, and we didn't go into the art-based methods stuff that we know, Ariella, you are very fond of but something for the future.

Doherty: Well, anyway, Raising Anti-Doomers by Ariella Cook-Shonkoff. And I know it's available out there already for pre-order and it's coming out sometime in August or something like that. So, we'll make sure we time our episode for your book launch, and we'll put links and things like that in the episode notes. Ariella, good luck, and Panu, have a good evening, and listeners, be well.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Hi this is Thomas Doherty. If you appreciate the conversations that Panu and I have on the Climate Change and Happiness podcast, be sure to preorder my new book, Surviving Climate Anxiety: A Guide to Coping, Healing, and Thriving. I’ve gathered insights and strategies I’ve learned through my career in an engaging and accessible format for the public. Whether you’re new to the experience of climate distress or a seasoned environmental veteran, you’ll find something useful you can take with you for now and for the long haul. You’ll find Surviving Climate Anxiety at all the major online booksellers and in stores this fall.

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image credit | **Mick Haupt**

Season 4, Episode 26: Coming Back to Climate News after a Vacation

Thomas advocates a news and technology break for people to enjoy their summer or holiday time; to reconnect with nature and their family; and replenish their own thoughts and dreams. But what to do when you come home? In this episode of "Climate Change and Happiness," Thomas and Panu Pihkala explore their own intricate balance between staying informed about global climate events and maintaining personal well-being. As they discuss the impacts of climate change—such as the recent deadly floods in Texas, and heatwave in Helsinki—they emphasize the importance of personal rituals and mindfulness in navigating the overwhelming news cycle. Join them as they delve into strategies for maintaining awareness without succumbing to despair, and discover how personal experiences and connections can serve as a grounding force in turbulent times.

Links

• Panu’s Rituals
• Finnish summer cottages or mökki
• Summer cottage video game
• Simple text news

Transcript

(on vacation)

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image credit | **Jennifer Marquez**

Thomas and Panu were joined by environmentalist Isaias Hernandez, creator of Queer Brown Vegan. Together, they explored the profound impact of identity on environmentalism, discussing how personal backgrounds, cultural heritage, and lived experiences shape one's approach to climate issues. Isaias shared his journey from growing up in Los Angeles as a first-generation immigrant to becoming a voice in the climate movement. The conversation delved into the intersectionality of race, identity, and environmental advocacy, and revealed the challenges and micro-aggressions faced by diverse students of climate science. A key take away was the importance of finding and claiming your unique place and style, not just taking in science and research but making it your own and sharing it in your own voice. Tune in to discover how embracing your identity can empower you to engage more deeply with environmental challenges.

Links

• Isaias Hernandez

• Queer Brown Vegan on Instagram

• Teaching Climate Together Web Series

• Isaias and Panu Discussion

• Climate Mental Health Network Grief Resources

• Animation: The Dance: Living with Eco-anxiety

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: Well, hello. I'm Thomas Doherty.

Pihkala: And I’m Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is our podcast, a show for people around the world who are thinking, and feeling, and acting deeply about climate change and environmental issues, as well as their connections with nature and the planet. Of course, that includes connections to our bodies, ourselves, our families, and our communities. And so, we're starting with this provocative question: What does it mean to be happy in the modern world and what does it mean to be happy in an era of climate change and then we go from there. And today we are really excited to have a guest with us.

Isaias Hernandez: Hi everyone. My name is Isaias Hernandez and I'm an environmentalist and the creator of Queer Brown Vegan, an educational media climate platform.

Doherty: Yeah, and you might have heard of Isaias if you're at all thinking about eco and climate issues, but Panu and I are familiar with his work and he's coming in from LA. So, we're just going to have a conversation today, personal and professional, much as we do. Panu, do you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Isaias, also on my behalf and lovely to see you again. We've had the pleasure of cooperating collaboratively with the progress of eco-anxiety and climate emotions and that's been wonderful. We often start this podcast by asking something about the guests' journey towards the place and identity where they are now. Would you like to share something about how you became who you are now, especially in relation to environmental issues?

Hernandez: Yeah, my passion for environmentalism is quite unique. Growing up in Los Angeles, as a first-generation immigrant kid, my parents were actually farmers from Mexico. So, for them, they actually had much more rich ecological relationships with the land than myself, I would say. And, when people ask me when did you realize you were an environmentalist, I actually didn't really identify with that word. I grew up watching Nat Geo and Discovery Channel, seeing biologists, conservationists, and all these amazing scientists around the world traveling and talking about their work. But I always told myself, I don't think it's possible for me to really do that because my situation is different and they're the true experts. They've studied the field, and they got the degrees. So, I think that got my curiosity of having parents who always wanted me to get a good education, they said we don't care what you do, and we just want you to follow what you truly want. So, I had the privilege of saying that my parents didn't care where I went for college, they just cared that I got a degree and that I actually chose to study what I want and that I end up getting a job.

I think it was in college when I was learning environmental science that I actually started to get more passionate about the subject and realize this is really what I truly want to do, and this is actually what I love. But one thing I felt the disconnect in academia is, how does this really relate to my lived experiences, but also the experiences of my other colleagues in these classes. We don't really relate to that, and I think that when you're graduating college, you have this illusion of I got my four-year degree and I'm going to work at one of the biggest green environmental NGOs (non-governmental organizations), and I'm going to become this famous scientist. And that really wasn't the case for me. I actually worked in a research lab in academia, and I absolutely did not enjoy my time doing it. I studied lizards and evolution and ecology, then I did food system work a year later for my senior thesis. I think after graduating college, I realized that social media was a way for me to actually delve into telling my own stories without feeling like I needed to be a scientist or a policymaker. I'm just an individual talking about these issues. And I think it was really unique to me that during that time there were barely any environmental creators online, but also people with lived experiences and the academic degrees that I had that were really getting to that. So, I would say I didn’t really fall into the role of an environmentalist until I was maybe 23, when I started to realize, I do think I'm an environmentalist. During college, I kept thinking, I’m still learning about how to be an environmental scientist, so I don't really know what that actually means or if I have to go to a master's program for that.

Panu: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. That's fascinating and a great example of how different backgrounds can still give resources for people to be intimately engaging with these issues. We have a video in your “Teaching Climate Together” series where we discuss climate emotions and the process model of eco-anxiety. There you tell a bit about the emotional dimension of this journey and also in relation to your college experiences. Listeners, I warmly recommend that video. Would you like to share just a bit about that since our podcast is so heavily geared towards the emotional dimension?

Hernandez: Yeah, absolutely. The “Teaching Climate Together” web series is a media project and initiative under the flagship of Queer Brown Vegan, where it was actually inspired back in my early days of social media when I would do infographics in 2019 of deconstructing climate words. So, it would be like, what is eco anxiety, what is climate grief, what is climate doomerism, and after a while of doing that for the first few years of my early career, I had a lot of followers asking if I could create videos on this. I said, I'm not an expert and didn't coin these words. I'm not a mental health researcher. Why would I put myself in these spaces when I don't have that background? And my team was actually very interested and kept saying, why don't you just interview the experts that already exist in these spaces and create an interview or like a web series show about it? People would watch it. And so that was actually the thing that got us to do “Teaching Climate Together.”

In our specific episode, which is the fifth episode, we were looking at the emotional dimensions of climate change in response to generations of people. And it really quite shocked me that there's very limited, and I think Panu, you can agree to this, but when you Google online for any videos around climate anxiety or emotions, there's barely any videos. There's a lot of recorded digital webinars and panels, of course, which are absolutely needed. But when you look at the personal relationships of saying to myself, I'm going to use myself as the client, Panu is like the therapist in a way, but also the research and the expert, how do we add a personal story to it? And it was really quite shocking how many people were messaging me after that episode and saying they really resonated with the fact that you got someone who was in the older field of the industry that's an expert, but you got a young person who understands some of these words and these experiences and you wove them in together to make sure that whoever's watching this video, whether you're someone younger or older, can relate to either Panu or they can relate to me.

Those are exactly the type of conversations a lot of young people today are having. It's like we feel embarrassed to talk to older people about these types of relationships or issues that we're having, or we sometimes feel almost neglected by the systems that it's almost like the adults are saying, you need to figure it out. When, in reality, it's not the truth. Adults are telling us that we actually want to talk about this because we are also experiencing eco-anxiety. And I think that really shifted the relationship of how young people see older people. Yes, I have eco-anxiety, but you also have eco-anxiety. And that does not make us less than or less human. It actually makes us more connected to the issues that we're trying to address.

Doherty: Yeah, excellent. Yeah, so many themes that are coming up that we can explore today. Just to follow up on the last point, it is a stereotype that younger people are more concerned or more aware than elders. When you look at the research from Yale Climate Program, there's a fairly equal percentage of people who are alarmed or concerned about climate in the population, whether they’re young or old. Likewise, there's a pretty equal percentage of dismissive people among young and elders as well. So, it's a stereotype that doesn't serve us because I've known many elders who have devoted their whole lives and careers to environmental work, and they have been doing this for ages and they feel incredibly deeply about these issues. Bringing the two ends of the spectrum together is super powerful. But because of technology and our social structures, we tend to be divided by social media and the way our culture is. That’s a larger story we can't get into, but I think one of the themes today is finding your place. It sounds like, similar to a lot of people, you had to struggle to find where do I fit in. And you were either lucky enough or capable enough to find a niche for yourself and then it goes from there. Once you start, there's a synergy. I had a question—Queer Brown Vegan, I would call it your brand or your platform, is obviously provocative. It seems maybe less provocative now than it did a few years ago, but could you say a bit about that because it seemed like that was almost like a manifesto or something that you were putting yourself out there.

Hernandez: Yeah, it's funny because traditionally, as a scientist myself, that comes from academia. I tried to claim Isaias Hernandez on Instagram, but it's already taken. So, I kind of struggled already to establish my public figure name. But I think the Queer Brown Vegan name actually came back in 2019 because during the time I remember in higher education, I was told never to talk about my identity and that race didn't matter. But then there were a lot of microaggressions that I would experience not just from my professors, but from my lab mentors or my lab grad students would say certain things to me that I just felt so visually uncomfortable. And I think this is something that’s a shared experience with a lot of people, whether you're a marginalized person in academia. There's certain things that were said to me that just never sat right with me. Like I had a professor once call me Mario, even though he knows I'm Isaias and the other guy who’s Latino that's on the other side of the classroom is named Mario. And it was just like those examples of dehumanization in academia. Yes, it shouldn't matter that someone misnamed you or said the wrong thing and said sorry, but it does matter because there's this ultimate sense of respect that needs to be given to students too, just as we give professors their accolades and their respective titles. But I think Queer Brown Vegan really came out of the fact that I just wanted to be very visibly like yes, I'm part of the LGBTQ community because in science people would be like, is he gay or what is he? People would always want to ask, and I just felt like what does it matter, I'm a scientist and that's really what I came here for, not for you to discuss what my identity is. And then second was the brown just being like yeah, I'm a proud Mexican person and I navigate the world. And I think the vegan part was actually funny. It's just that I had gone vegan just recently after I graduated college and then when I was coming out with the brand name, I was just like queer brown green or queer brown earth and I just said, you know what, Queer Brown Vegan just weaves in together, but it's very dynamic in your face. And I think at the time, it represented a lot of my early 20s and mid 20s. Not to say it doesn't represent me now, but I think it's always really interesting because people look at me and ask, well, what are you and then, they look into my work and they're like, you do climate education, that's very interesting. And they learn about my background, and they learn about the science that I have and everything. And they're like, okay. So, I think for me, like young people today, we're just very experimental on how we want to present ourselves to the world, but we're also not too serious because we recognize that social media is just a form of art for us too.

Panu: Yeah, that's fascinating. Warm thanks for sharing that and doing that. It reminds me of this book, which is nowadays quite widely read in environmental humanities, Nicole Seymour's Bad Environmentalism, which sort of challenges some of the standard tropes and frameworks of communication in the environmental sphere. It has tended to be too wide and sometimes too serious so, a certain queer playfulness, if we call it that, is very welcome for environmental communication. Also, it reminds me of the connection between education, communication, and advocacy. And that's a sort of language challenge because we don't usually use the word education for adult audiences, even though there is the subfield of adult education, but people tend to think of children and young people. But if we are trying to positively influence someone that's technically education, but for adult populations, it's perhaps voiced as communication or advocacy. But for my part, I see the work that you are doing as a sort of resonance of education, communication, and advocacy. If you want to speak to that, please do. But I also wanted to ask about this brown dimension and Latino environmentalism and your social media, which by the way listeners is very popular, there’s over 120,000 followers on Instagram, for example. So, I've gotten a window into Latino environmentalism which has been very educational for me. I wanted to ask you about your experiences of this broad and diverse field of Latino environmentalism.

Hernandez: Yeah, I think one of the reasons for being able to just lean in more to my identity is recognizing that Latinos are one of the most marginalized groups affected by climate change. And I think the issue with Latino communities today is that we're very vulnerable and susceptible to misinformation and disinformation. So, when I was looking in the environmental media sphere, even in the climate media sphere today, there's barely any Latinos that have bigger platforms. I could count maybe less than six or seven of us of Latino climate Americans that are representative in the U.S. And it was really saddening because I get a lot of messages from young Latinos or Latinas telling me that it's really hard for them to see themselves in these fields at times because as we know, environmental majors are not historically diverse if you look at any college from different universities across the United States. A lot of them ask me, how did you survive knowing the fact that there's no one that really looked like you or the professors were not representative of who you were? And I think it's a testament of when I talk about these Latin issues, I try not to just give them the science and data and say, this is what you should be listening to but also to relate it back to the culture.

One of those events that I recently produced here in Los Angeles Climate Week was called Climate Chisme to really bring together how we talk about gossip in our communities, but through a climate lens and get people informed. And this isn't about a climate panel and learning about why Latinos should care about climate change, but to talk about how gossip and storytelling has been used to protect our communities from floods and wildfires and to make sure that our neighbors have each other's backs and to create these types of systems of care. And I think that it was really resonant with so many people who attended the event because they had never seen it before. But two, I think that it's a testament of where we're at right now. We need all different directions to reach out to our communities and my direction is through community building and cultural storytelling. Not to say that the science and data isn't needed, because it's always needed. However, the science and data are what communicates to me, but it doesn't communicate to my mom who may not have that science degree or background and she's just trying to get through her daily life. So, we have to have these different strategies to be there. But also, for me, it's a really huge thank you because if I would have seen someone online who looked like me when I was young, I don't think I would have had so many doubts in academia every day thinking I don't think I'm good enough to be here compared to a lot of my other colleagues who came from very prestigious backgrounds and just knew what they always wanted to do like go to law school or to grad school. I had to figure out everything like how to do these things because I didn’t really have any mentorship or people who look like me.

Doherty: Yeah, this is great. And listeners, I know there are people out there that are identifying, and you don't have to be a Latina or Chicano to identify because Panu and I both dealt with this too. We've talked about this a lot on our podcast. People are trying to study these interdisciplinary issues, these intersectional issues and it's difficult to find a pathway through the disciplines and stuff like that. So, this intersectionality is really key because the difficulties in academia are intersectional, not just because of our culture, but also because there's no good department and the academic system to deal with these issues. We've been talking about this on the podcast recently with people, even established scientists, who were trying to study when they were younger. So, there's an age of intersectionality because young people come in with these new ideas and they can't find a space in the academic system. The psychology department says we don't study the environment, go to environmental studies and environmental studies are trying to be biological scientists and really hardcore experimental people who say they don’t do that emotional stuff, that’s for psychiatry, especially with anxiety or depression, you have to go to the psychiatry department for that or the social work department and they say, we’re too busy dealing with major mental illness or we're dealing with the houseless population and the fentanyl addiction so we don't have time for you. So, you just do this runaround—and if you're queer and brown, it's even worse.

Hernandez: Yeah, definitely. I think for many people, they identify with me, even if they're not the same race or identity as me. A lot of my followers always say they're very scattered from different generations, but I will say that a lot of moms always show up for me and they tell me they are teaching their kids about climate anxiety and climate education. I would say mothers have played such a huge role in being huge advocates of my work. I think there's definitely a lot of gratefulness for older generations showing up in that way.

Panu: Yeah, that's great to hear. Moms and grandmothers are some of the foundations of human communities after all. Some organizations have happened in the climate sphere. In Finland, we have Ilmastovanhemmat for example, climate grandparents organizing for climate action. But of course, their role is much larger and wider than just organized NGOs. Looking back, Isaias, to your active years, there are already many, but what comes to your mind as some of the very memorable moments on your journey, perhaps now in relation to the emotional and existential dimension of these issues?

Hernandez: Yeah, I think some of my most memorable moments are just when it comes to the planet and my relationship to mental health, I remember being a sophomore in college. I think I was 19 at the time and I think we talked about it briefly in the episode where we first learned the term eco-anxiety. I told you this, I laughed. The first reaction was laughing at it. I said, are you kidding me, people actually deal with this? And I laughed but then I talked to my friend who was next to me, and she was really scared, and she was telling me, I've been dealing with this for years, Isaiah. And we actually talked about it, and I think that was really a pivotal moment for me to recognize how many differences people have in terms of not their lived experiences, but how we can easily disregard different types of mental health issues. My mental health issue was actually the fear of not having enough money. So, I worked multiple jobs. My fear was I don't want to get kicked out of my housing and I need to pay my bills. I had more financial anxiety. For her, it was a different situation where the finances weren't really an issue for her. Her studying in this field and learning more about the depressing news that we were learning as young environmental scientists was a reality for her. And I think for me, I didn't really prioritize climate change and mental health for me because at the time, I had to deal with my own financial anxiety first.

So, when I learned that it actually helped me become more empathetic towards people and understanding that we all have different situations in life. And yes, some others have different forms of privilege, like me, do I have privilege being a male? I think to me, it helped me contextualize how we show up better for people, even if we don't understand each other and don't come from the same worlds. I think that's really helped me build the platform I have today. My platform is really focused on educating rather than interrogating individuals. I think in my early years, my writing was very aggressive. I remember some of my followers telling me that we love that we learn, but sometimes you sound mad. And now, over the years, I think I've really come more into who I am in my late twenties. And people say, I love that you're very slow in your writing and you don't judge me, and I feel like I can ask you anything and you're not going to tell me anything bad. I think those are the moments and I think with the web series, especially with our climate change mental health episode, it opened up really huge opportunities, not just for myself, but for young people to start talking about these subjects of matter in their own classrooms, which I thought was really fascinating. I remember a follower sent me a message saying, my professor is screening your episode and now a hundred of us saw it. And I was like, that's embarrassing, well not embarrassing, but it's like in those moments I didn't know that people were watching it. So, I do think that's a really pivotal time. We're headed for not just a cultural information era, but a connection era where we're trying to bid for connection and truly accept that connection for each other.

Doherty: Hmm, that's great. I'm glad you brought this up because we have a little bit of time left. We don't like to unpack two big issues at the end, but there's this phenomenon of dealing with shame, either feeling shamed or shaming other people and the microaggressions and all this sort of stuff. I'm thinking about an experience I had where there was an organization in Portland called Vive, which was a Hispanic environmental group here. I was doing a workshop with them a few years ago, and I led people in this environmental identity timeline exercise, which I do with people where they plot out their life and all their experiences in nature. It was a totally mixed group. Isaias, you would have fit well in there because half of the people were Hispanic, Chicana, of Mexican heritage, some were first generation, second generation, but with very discreet environmental experiences. And then the other half were all white environmental folks, who were more upper middle class, and then comparing people's eco timelines such as what people took for granted in terms of privilege about camping, being in the outdoors versus just basically needs and dealing with access issues and racism and stuff like that. There was a lot of shaming on the white people's side. They felt almost embarrassed that they were so lucky to have such a nice life. So, that just comes with the territory, but it seems like you're able to handle that like and it sounds like you're more sensitive to even your own passions about how you come across to people. Isn't shaming a short-term strategy that just shuts things down in the long run?

Hernandez: Yeah, I think it disempowers any movement building and I do think that there's certain types of people that are able to ground themselves in those conversations. As I've gotten older and have worked with so many people internationally and also domestically here in the US that come from different economic brackets, I think there's a lot of things that I had to do inward for my own healing of why am I acting this way or why am I trying to put it this way? And I think that's where humility in this generation and especially my generation, it’s not that it's hard to be built, because we've become such a secular society with these technological tools and not saying that social media has destroyed our mental health, but we've entered the very comparison culture and I think it's very hard for young people. It's like they're inheriting both the world that's not as stable as they were told that it was going to be, but at the same time, the people that are trying to really understand the realities.

Like even with my own best friends, who come from way different economic brackets from me, when we actually learned about our lives personally, they didn't understand how much I've had to go through to get to where I'm at but also how much they went through in their personal lives to do what they're doing. It’s not to say that my story is more superior than theirs or theirs is less than, but it's more to understand we can still love each other no matter what. And I think it's really hard to go back to those human roots at times because I think our political differences and our economic differences can try to separate us. But I have mentors who are older who have really guided me with rough conversations, and I think that's the importance of intergenerational friendships. I have friends from different age groups that have really changed the way I think and I'm very glad that I did that versus trying to just hang out only with young mid 20-year-olds or late 20s. My friends are from the ages of 20 to 60.

Pihkala: Yeah, great to hear and I think there's deep wisdom there. And I've been quite struck over the years by eco-psychologist Bill Plotkin's model of ecological centric human development, which is most extensively developed in his book Nature and the Human Soul. And there comes the idea that we also need elders, but basically people from all kinds of ages and there's developmental tasks and strengths associated with various ages. So, I’m very much resonating with this intergenerational cooperation and learning that compassion and humility. You've spoken about your environmental identity in your work. For example, we have a common love and interest in picking up mushrooms or foraging. We are coming close to the end of the episodes, even though there would be a lot more to talk about, but that's something I wanted to bring up. Would you like to speak a bit about that relationship to the land that you have and is partly shaped also by your family heritage.

Hernandez: Yeah, I think growing up, I was not really an outdoor workout kid. I was always the slower hiker, the walker in the family. My family is very athletic, but I ended up being the non-athletic one. I picked up foraging because I saw it as a way for ecological reverence. I think as a kid, I always looked at things on the ground. And I think there was this moment when I was in New Jersey living in the forest. It’s a perfect area to forage throughout the seasons or winters since there’s sometimes mushrooms there. I just picked it up and I remember just learning through how to forage different colors of mushrooms and berries in the summer season. I'm not good with plants but my mycelium is more my thing. It was really cool because when I was doing it and taking pictures, I showed my dad and my dad was like, it’s funny you said that because your own grandma actually used to forage for mushrooms in the forests of Mexico and she really loved doing that by herself and it's so weird that you picked it up. I said I didn't know that, and you don't really talk about our grandma because my grandma passed away from my dad's side at a very young age, so it was really hard for him to speak about it. I think that's one way I kind of honor my environmental identity and could reconnect with my roots even if it's not the area my grandma lived in. I think there's a way to honor your ancestors through that. And also, just teaching people about foraging. I think it's my favorite thing to do. My family thinks I'm weird for doing it sometimes, but I think it's funny because they want to just get to the top of the mountain, and I want to take my time to get there.

Doherty: Lovely. Yeah, there's so many intersections and physical ability is another unspoken intersection, not so much even just basic. I mean obviously there's different abilities, whether someone is able to walk or is in a wheelchair or things like that. But even just your preference about whether you're ‘outdoorsy’ or athletic or not is a huge unspoken stereotype in the environmental world. And a lot of people feel left out. I can't be that person because I'm not climbing a mountain or something like that. So, we've got to wrap it up. But this was a great episode. So, listeners, under the surface, we all have our origin stories, and we have our ancestors and our strengths and weaknesses and our little microshames that we have to share. So, Isaias, it's really a pleasure to have you. As always, we could do more and maybe we can do some more again in the future, but I want to wish you really well in your work and we'll be linking to a bunch of stuff in our show notes too. Listeners, we’ll have a bunch of links to various things you can follow-up that we talked about today. Panu, thank you very much for your time as well.

Pihkala: Warm thanks Isaias and as always Thomas, it's been a great pleasure to take part in this conversation.

Hernandez: Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Doherty: We'll be in touch with everyone. Everyone, be well and take care.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

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image credit | Tina Kuper

Season 4, Episode 24: On Grief and Mourning for Animals with Panu Pihkala

Thomas learned about Panu’s recent research with Elisa Aaltola on animal ethical mourning and how this relates to feelings people have about pets and companion animals, farmed animals and wild creatures. Like many of our emotions about nature and environmental issues, natural feelings for kindred species are often ignored, suppressed or disenfranchised (not recognized and given standing) in human-centric society and economics. Ways to enfranchise grief for animals includes being honest and bearing witness, creating art and rituals, and sponsoring community activities. Being open about your moral commitments for fellow animals, and your love, care and empathy, can bring a sense of relief, honor, rest, peace and grace. This can free up your energy and commitment to change society's practices about our fellow creatures.

Links

• A Tribute to the The Passenger Pigeon – Memorial in Wisconsin’s Wyalusing State Park
• Art Exhibition: Kindred Spirits: Honoring Animals in Death
• Amanda Stronza: Animal Memorials
• How to cope with the death of your pet
• Pihkala, Panu, and Elisa Aaltola. 2025. ‘Animal Ethical Mourning: Types of Loss and Grief in Relation to Non-Human Animals’. Frontiers in Veterinary Science 12 (April):1526302
• Pihkala, Panu. 2024. "Ecological Sorrow: Types of Grief and Loss in Ecological Grief" Sustainability 16, no. 2: 849.

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: Well hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is our podcast, a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and other environmental issues and different tumultuous times that we're all living through. This is a podcast where we have asked this provocative question of what it means to be happy in the modern world or what would it mean for us to be happy in the modern world. Often to do that, we must go through barriers to happiness, and we have to deal with things that are not happy so we can figure out how to make sense of them or how to make peace with them. And that's kind of where we're at today. Panu, as you all know, if you've been listening, is always studying different interesting things about emotions in the world. And one of the areas that Panu has been working on is grief and loss regarding animals and other animals outside of the human animal. So that's what we're talking about today. So, I'm going to be interviewing Panu about this research. So, let's jump into it. Panu, you’ve been doing some research and we'll put information in the show notes about feelings of loss and mourning and ways to be ethically mourning loss and grief related to non-human animals. So, what kind of things have you been discovering there?

Pihkala: Yes, and dear listeners, if you think of your life history, almost all of us have at least some relationship with other animals. For many people, there's been some kind of pet or companion animal in places and families where we have lived. Some people have been raising animals for various purposes and there may be emotional connections in many ways or various hobbies or practices. Some animal species in the Western World or industrialized world are often in positions where there's strong emotional connections between humans and them. Dogs and cats are prominent, but there's a lot of other companion animals and pets. The bond between horses and people who ride or take care of horses can be very strong. So, that's one dimension here and for many people, losing a close animal has been an important lesson in loss and grief because the lifespan of many animals is shorter than the human lifespan. So, depending on where you live and what kind of privileges one has, it may be that the death of a dog or cat is one of the first death experiences in close family relations. And in grief research, the focus has been on humans who are dying or suffering, but for many decades it has already been recognized that losing pets or companion animals evokes strong emotions in people, which shouldn't come as a surprise. This topic has actually been a contradictory and difficult one in many societies because there may be assumptions that deeper grief should be related to human loss, for example. So, there's been people who understand you when you talk about loss and grief after losing an animal close to you. And then there may be people who really can't resonate with that and that often leads to what is called ‘disenfranchised grief’ in research which is grief that is not given a public voice or validation. How about you, Thomas, when you think of your life history, does this resonate?

Doherty: Well, I think this research is really helpful. I'm thinking about it and this whole idea of disenfranchise means it's not recognized. We don't talk about it and so we don't have language for it. But it's helpful for me to see what you've been studying because you talk about grief that we feel about pets and animals that are close to us, like cats and dogs and household pets, but then also wildlife. You link it to grief about wild animals which could be whales or extinct animals, wild condors, orangutans, or any kind of animal and the grief we feel when they're threatened with extinction, or their habitats are gone. So, that's a big thing that people feel. And then there’s this more contentious area of farmed animal grief because most of the animals on the planet right now, pound for pound, are livestock and farm animals. It is one way humans have transformed the planet. We have so many thousands of chickens and cows and all this stuff around the world. And that's just a really touchy topic on a number of levels ethically. So, it's really courageous to do this.

I can touch on it on a number of levels, my own concerns about wild animals that I value and love. I've had pets, I've had a dog for many years that I had as a young adult that I had to put down when he was old and had illnesses and that was very sad. I have an ancient cat, Lakshmi, who's going to be 21 this year and she's just an old person in our home that's been here since she was a kitten. So, we're preparing for her end of life. So, that's a really personal level. And in my family, my two sisters are both very strong animal rights advocates, so we have interesting discussions about veganism and various things. My sister, Sherry, was a zookeeper and worked in zoos for a number of years and she also worked at a place called the Center for Great Apes in Florida which was a refuge for chimpanzees and orangutans that had been used in movies or kept as pets. It was essentially like a rehabilitation old folks home hospice for these large wild animals. And I think people don't even realize that these kinds of places exist for elephants and orangutans. There's a whole subculture of people that are working for animals. So anyway, I think it's huge. When you talk to people or do the research, what are some of the surprising things that you notice?

Pihkala: Yes, thanks for reflecting on all that. I also met Lakshmi when visiting Portland this spring. She's old, but still going. And in my family childhood, we also had a cat so that's a personal resonance. And as you said, there's three case examples in this article. There's actually two research articles coming out, and one is already out there. It's called “Animal Ethical Mourning: Types of Loss and Grief in Relation to Non-Human Animals.” So, there's a lot in the title and it’s written together with Elisa Aaltola. Elisa is a philosopher and animal rights activist and a very empathetic person who is well known in Finland for her public work around animal rights. So, she's both a researcher and a public figure. And the three case examples have some similarities, but also differences in dynamics. And this pet and companion animal loss is luckily becoming more enfranchised if that's a word in English. So, there's more voice and recognition for that in many places, but not everywhere. Sometimes I think that the depth of those losses is still not recognized. So, how strong the emotional bond and connection may be and sometimes it's a double loss in the sense that the animal companion has before helped the human companion in facing different stresses and hardships. So, when losing an animal, one is also losing a source of support. And that may happen of course when we lose close persons, but that's something to be recognized.

This wildlife grief ties with what is called ‘ecological grief’ or ‘environmental grief’ and what we have been discussing often in this podcast. Climate change related sadness and grief which is often called climate grief is also closely connected with that. In research, literature, and art-based work around ecological grief, many different animals are featured and discussed. There's some very profound artwork which at the same time tries to work against disenfranchised grief in relation to wildlife grief. And it may sometimes be challenging to think of ways to do that mourning in community. But people have been trying to find creative ways like memorials or some kind of rituals or performances. And I've been part of that work in Finland. Like this annual theme day of Remembrance Day for Lost Species on November 30th. So, there's a small but growing international movement for having an annual team day for remembering other species and those which are extinct. There's some memorials people have set up. I think one of the most famous is the memorial for passenger pigeon in the United States and that sort of thing. The third case example of farmed animal grief may be very challenging for people who feel it because of the social contradictions. We all know that there's differences in opinion about meat eating and vegetarianism, for example. And still, people are living in the same cities and visiting the same grocery stores. And one of the things I realized when doing this research with Elisa and engaging with the literature and people's experiences was learning more about how challenging it may be for people who feel this kind of grief because then they have to try to find ways to process that in communities where there's disagreement over these issues.

Doherty: Yeah, let’s hold that thought on the disagreement. I'm just thinking about the art piece there. When I was working on my book, I did a little research on art and nature. There's a whole movement of people that do art regarding animals. And there's an artist, Amanda Stronza, who makes these alters to animals. People do that around roadkill animals, animals that are killed on the side of the road. I think the writer, Barry Lopez, had written a famous essay about that years ago. So disenfranchised means unrecognized, not given any rights. When we're driving down the highway, and we see a deer or a raccoon or a bird or a coyote killed on the side of the road, we just pass it by. There’s a social denial about that being an issue. Like someone's going to come and pick up that animal and take it away, but we're not supposed to mourn for it. We're not supposed to be sad for these animals. At least that's what society will tell us. But, of course, we do feel sad, and children feel sad and it's poignant that children have to learn that you're not supposed to notice this, you're supposed to just drive by. Whereas if it was a dog or a cat, then that's different. We have different rules. I've seen whole traffic stop because a dog was in the road because people don't want to hurt the dog. It's just fascinating how we have a hierarchy of different rights for things like that and obviously, if someone was actively torturing an animal that wouldn't be okay, but if it's hit by a truck, it's okay. So anyway, it's confusing so this gets into all that kind of stuff.

Pihkala: Yeah, totally. Thanks for voicing that, Thomas. For children and young people, it can be very confusing. Then, thinking of why the bad treatment of certain species is widely accepted in society, for example. This hierarchy of species affects mourning practices in places where people professionally work with animals. So, one quote from a study of two professionals was by a bird caring person who was feeling bad because in Judaism, charismatic big mammals may be publicly mourned and there may be poignant practices of enabling people who visit the zoo to participate in that memorialization. But then when birds die, the attitude may be that they don't live long anyway and there's going to be new birds and that sort of thing. So, this hierarchy can exist in these places where there is caring about animals.

Doherty: Yeah, and then of course, it's political. So, it's touchy. You talk about animal grief and how it can be contested, right? Meaning that people don't agree on the ethics of it. And of course, most of the animal factory farming is kept secret or suppressed from the public because if people saw what was happening in these places, they would viscerally become nauseated and then they wouldn't want the animals. We talk about ecological wake up calls around climate change or other things, but people have wake up calls around eating animals when they learn about some of the practices. It’s just complicated because there are many people that try to ethically raise animals and try to ethically do this, but once you get into this large-scale factory commodification corporations, we lose touch with the humanity of it.

Pihkala: Yeah, and there's lots of developments in society and the economy which have been pushing farmers to go into more large-scale animal raising and production. So, it hasn't been easy for people who would have wanted to do that on a more personal level and small-scale level. That may be economically very difficult. Luckily, there's people who try to do that. There's a book called Environmental and Animal Abuse Denial: Averting Our Gaze by Tomaž Grušovnik from eastern Europe and a couple of others edited that one. That's an interesting book where these mechanisms of trying to keep a distance or trying to keep them hidden are used, as you say Thomas, both in relation to climate matters and to animal factory farming, for example. So, on one hand it's a very human thing to try not to look too intensively at suffering, but of course it's not very ethical and that's where the title of our article comes from, “Animal Ethical Mourning”. It's moral commitment to animals and then the grief which results from this moral commitment. I hope dear listeners that this doesn't get too heavy for you, but it's deeply entwined with love, care, and empathy. That's of course seen in children, the sort of ability to empathize with animals and, as you say Thomas, the conflicted feelings which come if they observe that the adult world doesn't bury all the animals on the roadside, for example. But overall, there’s this whole phenomenon of sadness and grief because of what happens to non-human animals. It's tied with love and care. So, on one hand it's very heavy, but it also testifies to very important and power-giving relationalities in our lives.

Doherty: Yeah, power-giving is a great term. It's an underlying hurt because we care and underlying this is love and care. The only reason we feel discomfort is because we have some value there. Unnecessary suffering is probably one of the core underlying values here. I think people really understand intellectually that we all die, animals die, there's going to be death. I don't see people mourning as much when they watch say a wildlife film where some cheetahs are chasing down a wildebeest in the savanna and they catch the wildebeest and eat it. There's an understanding of the cycle of life and that they're predators and prey. It seems to be somehow part of the natural order, but when we take it out of that and put it into this needless suffering, I think most everyone can agree that, unless you’re pathological, people don't like unnecessary suffering nor do they like waste or things that are wasteful. So, I think we can all agree on these kinds of things. Listeners, you're hearing us talk about this and you're going to have all of your connections, whether it's your pet or concerns about animals in the wild or concerns about animals and factory farms. You might have your own farm or grow your own animals or chickens for eggs and all these kinds of things. Hunting of course is a whole special lifestyle. I know a lot of people that are very ethical regarding hunting. They're not interested in unnecessary suffering of animals or wasting animals. I think it's possible for hunters to both enjoy the thrill of the hunt, but also feel grief for the loss of the animal. I think that's what we would have in the native cultures, some combination of ritual reciprocal relations, right? Like nature and humans, we give and take. We're missing so much of that in the modern world, that kind of ceremonial connection. So, it's a deep thing. We touched on this a bit, but let’s move toward this for the end of the talk. What do we do with this grief, like how do we enfranchise it, how do we give it power in examples that you've seen?

Pihkala: That's a very important question and one can take a look at what we know about grief and bereavement, about human loss and death and what kind of things and practices support a healthy grieving process, if we call it that. So, there's many possible things ranging from something one can do on one's own, for example freely writing or journaling about feelings of sadness and grief. That's something which can be done even while there might be social disenfranchised grief. Doing some kind of rituals for commemoration helps both with emotions and also has an ethical dimension, the task of bearing witness, which we have discussed in an earlier episode. “Environmental Commemoration” would be one frame here by Mihaela Mihai and Mathias Thaler, for example. Those rituals can also be done on your own or with a small, trusted group of people or at some times and places it may be possible to do that in public. There’s interesting new sorts of practices and rituals emerging. For example, with wildlife grief, there’s this annual Remembrance Day for Lost Species on November 30th. So that's an annual theme day. I think it started from Britain, from Brighton if I'm not mistaken, and then it's spread into various corners of the world, and I've been facilitating that kind of work with small groups of people in Helsinki. We usually do that annual ritual in the animal cemetery in the central park of Helsinki, which is really a forest. So, it's mostly companion animals there, but there's a memorial stone for animals who have suffered in medicine and animal testing, for example. So, these kinds of stable memorials are one option. And I know that in the States, there's a memorial for the passenger pigeon which has been there for decades already, so that's part of the public dimension.

Then of course, coping with grief is a very wide topic and there's lots of good literature on that. Personally, I've been learning much from William Worden and his tasks of mourning approach and also from Robert Neimeyer and sort of meaning reconstruction framework. It explains how we need to work through changes in meanings in life when something major happens. We've discussed this in one episode way back and in this article, there's discussion about the various types of loss and grief and there's also a separate episode in our podcast about that. And in spring 2025, the Climate Mental Health Network presented a new set of resources on ecological and climate grief based on these types of loss and grief. So, we'll put a link to that in the show notes. So, these interconnections between animal ethical mourning and ecological and climate grief are quite profound. But how about you, Thomas? With your long experience of counselling people and in psychology, what are some of the things that come up to you in relation to coping with sadness and grief?

Doherty: Yeah, I'm just thinking out loud here. I wasn't aware of the passenger pigeon memorial, but I see that it's in Wisconsin. I think with a lot of these things, we think we're alone and we think we're the only one. Then, when we scratch the surface, we realize other people think about this. So, there’s this paradox that you can't stay isolated and once you start talking about it, you find kindred spirits. I think that's one of the big universal takeaways. This animal stuff is universal. I can't imagine anyone not having some opinions on it if we just create a safe space to talk about it. It’s just so primal to our existence. So, I do think sometimes people either underestimate the resources around them or they overestimate the barriers. But it does take that initial courage to share something. I know if you go to any Audubon Society or bird society or any kind of animal rescue or animal adoption, there are so many people that devote their lives to caring for animals. People do dog walking, pet sitting, and veterinarians is another area. Either people work as veterinarians or broadly in the veterinary field and they’re all highly attuned to animals. Of course, horse people work with horses and they’re very strong, intelligent, special animals and there's rituals and things. So, there's more here and it's just these weird, disenfranchised areas are like a double reality. They exist all around us, but we kind of have to ignore them unless you get into it a little bit. So, I would encourage people to push into it a little bit. I was trying to find the words for it, because I feel like it’s still very difficult and heavy. But, once you do some of this work like looking at all these models and all the different kinds of grief, it's like a divide and conquer kind of thing. I can divvy up all of my grief feelings into smaller, palatable or more understandable pieces, versus this massive grief that you can't understand. It just feels overwhelming. So yeah, that's what comes up.

Pihkala: Yeah, warm thanks for sharing that, Thomas and I strongly agree on trying to move forward from this sense of isolation, because as you say, there's many people who feel these things and with my work around types of loss and grief, I hope that people will take their time with it. It's a lot at first glance to think of all these concepts, but hopefully that might lead to developing a vocabulary which may help at discerning what kind of actions and practices might help in the case of certain kinds of losses. In these practical encounters with the topic and with other people, often I've had to experience beforehand that it's heavy and facilitate that. Because of my earlier life history, I've been facilitating a lot of funerals, for example, so I have certain sets of skills for that. But then afterwards, it's usually a very relieved atmosphere. So, there's a surprisingly powerful sense of relief and perhaps even something like honor after collectively doing this. So, I would encourage you listeners, whatever the types of loss and grief you feel in relation to other animals are, to experiment with engaging with those even though it may feel difficult at first. And I don't want to say that it's a guaranteed relief always, but there's that possibility that it may actually be strangely relieving.

Doherty: Yeah, well it's cathartic, right? It's not uncommon for people to have strong emotions or to cry or to emote so it does get the weight off of us. There might be a place of finding some peace or some grace with this kind of thing. It's all existential at the end of the day because we're all ultimately dealing with the limited life and death and our inevitability of our death, just how do we do it in an ethical way. So yeah, this is a difficult topic. It's a big, tough topic, but that's why we have to be courageous enough to bring it up here. And you cannot go toward happiness in the world without being able to feel all these other feelings. Otherwise, your happiness feels artificial, right? So, thanks for doing this, Panu. I'm going to share this with some of my family who might appreciate this. We'll put links in the show notes to these academic papers for folks that are working in the academic world but also just some of the images and simple things that you've shared for the public because I think it's a great public service. Well thanks Panu, let's wrap it up and listeners, I hope you took something important from this and it'll allow you to go easier in your life as you deal with these issues.

Pihkala: Thanks Thomas for another deep discussion and what you say might be a motto for the podcast. It's all existential at the end of the day. Take care people.

Doherty: Yeah, for sure. All right, take care. Bye.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

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image credit | **Robin Canfield**

Season 4, Episode 23: On Transformational Resilience with Bob Doppelt

Thomas and Panu met with long-time environmental and mental health advocate Bob Doppelt. Bob talked about his personal story beginning with landscape and river system conservation and moving into sustainability and leadership education. Bob also spoke of his recent activities working with the International Transformational Resilience Coalition on ways that communities can connect and adapt in the face of climate disruptions. Bob's latest work focuses on the idea of “community is medicine.” As happens when like-minded people come together, Thomas and Bob found that they had a number of mutual connections in the Oregon white water rafting community. Join us for an inspiring conversation.

Links

• Bob Doppelt

• Transformational Resilience (book)

• The International Transformational Resilience Coalition

• David Pollack: What is Transformational Resilience and how does it apply to the mental health and public health responses to the impacts of climate change?
• Campaign for Trauma Informed Policy and Practice

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I’m Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is our podcast, a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and other environmental issues. And you know what they say when you pick on one thing in the universe, it's hitched to everything else. So, climate environmental issues include your family, politics, economics, your life, your spirituality. So, all this stuff. And we really enjoy having conversations with people around the world. And I'm really honored to have a guest today. A person that I've actually never met but we have a lot of shared contacts in the past as often happens. So, I'd like you to meet our guest.

Doppelt: Hello, I’m Bob Doppelt. I coordinate the International Transformational Resilience Coalition. I'm happy to be here today.

Doherty: Yeah, and we were just chatting before we started. Now, I used to work as a river guide and an outdoor guide in Oregon. And I knew Bob had been a river guide too and it turns out we know some of the same people and some of my mentors he had worked with. It's a small world in sustainability and climate sometimes, and we cross paths. So that's already a nice connection we're having. And I'm really interested in actually hearing about Bob's current work and all the things he's doing. Panu, do you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Bob, also on my behalf. Pleasure to meet you. We have been presenting in some of the same lecture series, but we haven't actually talked with each other, so this is a pleasure. I started working on eco-anxiety and eco-emotions around 2008 or 2009, and then in a more concentrated manner after 2015. And during that period, I was very happy when I found your book from 2016 called Transformational Resilience. Terms such as eco-anxiety existed. They were not as popular as they were later on, but I was really surprised how wide-ranging that book was already, including both individual methods for calming down your nervous system when there's too much stress and lots of things around community and social relations and resources. So, I was very grateful for that, and it's actually had some influence in Finland also, but before going into details, and listeners, we will open up the concept of transformational resilience, it would be very nice to hear something about your personal journey. How did you become so invested in these matters related to environmental issues and human psychology and community resilience?

Doppelt: Well, thank you both and nice to meet you both. Even though it's not in person yet. But I've sort of, like many of us in life, go in a fishtail kind of experience through life. I've been a river guide all my life, including in high school, and had always had a strong connection to the outdoors. But in doing that, one of the things I did when I was very young, I was hired at age 21, after college, to run an outdoor treatment program for 30 kids. Here are 30 kids, now take them around the country and do rock climbing, backpacking, river running, and don't kill anybody. That was sort of the message I got from the director, but we did it, and it went well. So, it was early on that I had an experience of having to work with people who were in stressful situations and in the outdoors. And it was a very interesting learning experience.

So, I ended up going to grad school both in counseling psychology and in environmental science. My first actual professional experience, I worked as a counselor with troubled youth and their families. And after a number of years there, I realized that I didn't have enough understanding of what many of these kids were going through to really help them. I was trained in Adlerian counseling and Dreikurs family therapy and this didn't help many of the kids that I was dealing with, and we can get into that later. I got burned out because of that, so I went back into the environmental field. Then ended up, after many years, running the Climate Leadership Initiative at the University of Oregon, which was one of the very first social science based ethical assistance research programs in the US. So, we ran around helping organizations, state governments, country governments and others develop their first climate action plans. We went to southeast Florida and helped organize the Southeast Florida Climate Resiliency Compact which brought together the largest metro area in Florida, Miami-Dade and Broward counties to prepare for sea level rise, storm surges, and other impacts. Then, Superstorm Sandy came along which you might remember. I guess 12 years ago. We saw mental health impacts in the northeast of the US such as New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, but it skirted along the coast of Florida, and we saw the same impacts here. The other people in the climate field didn’t see that or if they did, they didn’t care much because it wasn’t their background. But because of my background in mental health, I saw those impacts and I knew they were going to get way worse because the climate emergency was going to get way worse. That led me to form the ITRC, the International Transformation of Resilience Coalition, to try to combine these two fields now 11 years ago.

Doherty: Yeah, this is great. Either for young people or for people that are new in some sort of climate or sustainability, it's important to realize this is not new at all. People have been in some form of environmental sustainability for 50 years, in the modern sense of the term and certainly climate. Now someone who grew up in Oregon, I talk in the book I'm working on about the emergence of the modern environmental movement. Much of it took place on the West Coast and in places like Oregon and Eugene. So, this idea of having a climate resilience plan isn’t new. It was like 30 years ago that people were talking about this. It wasn't just yesterday. So, it's really great to talk with you. It gives a sense of the breadth and distance and depth of this kind of program. A lot of people were surprised by Sandy, but you were already involved and could see it coming. All these experiences like Sandy, Lahaina, the LA fires, and Ashley. These are all tipping point wakeup call experiences. I think Sandy's unique, and we could talk maybe more about that because it mobilized the New York intelligentsia, the New York therapists. The people that wouldn't necessarily be the Oregonian river guide types. It brought them into the mix of this so that's really a sad way to do it, but it is what's been happening. It's probably what's the case. Each disaster kind of folding in a new subculture of people into this work. Would you say that's a fair statement?

Doppelt: Yeah, I think as is often the case with humans is that it's only a crisis that gets us to think differently, change our minds, etc. And this issue is so overwhelming to most people, they can't get their heads around it. So, we deal with the next crisis by trying to respond to it, and then we move on. We don't think about what's actually happening over the long term and what's needed because we're going to have more and more disasters. And just as importantly with the climate crisis, we call it the climate ecosystem biodiversity crisis, because it's way more than an atmospheric crisis. We're degrading ecological systems and we're exterminating biodiversity worldwide that feeds back to increased temperatures and dysregulates the atmospheric climate system even more, which of course then feeds back and has more ecological and biological impact. So, it’s a real interactive process. Even the most destructive impacts go far beyond disasters, these extreme weather events. And that's what people haven't quite wrapped their heads around. It’s activating cascading disruptions to the ecological, social, and economic systems people rely on for food, water, shelter, jobs, health, income. And we often can't connect it with the climate ecosystem biodiversity crisis. But even now, rising food prices in the US, that people are so mad about, are not all caused by, but a significant part is droughts that are impacting food, reducing the ability of farmers to produce food, etc. So, it's creating all sorts of stresses. And then on top of that, or connected to that, are these acute disasters that come in and harm and destroy people. And that is really what we really need to prepare for. That's what my organization is trying to help people prepare for and communities prepare for. Otherwise, we just sit around and try to react to the next disaster and help people through mental health first aid afterwards. And that's important, but that's not the solution at all.

Pihkala: Yeah, that's a real systemic approach to these issues. Could you share with the listeners what are some of the practical methods in that kind of work?

Doppelt: Yeah, good question. So as people think about it, when there is a disaster, what normally happens? People come together who don't know each other, might not even like each other, and they help each other out. They provide food and shelter or practical assistance. They go rescue somebody from a situation and they set up food shelters for people to come and get food when their home's ruined or something. That's called the community cohesion phase of a disaster or the honeymoon phase. So, we help people realize and think about if they’ve been assisted by that or participated in that in some way and if they could see that kind of mutual aid network becoming long-term and permanent. That's really what we're focused on. We are focused on helping communities and neighborhoods form what we call Transformational Resilience Coordinating Networks, TRNCs. They are these mutual aid networks. The difference is the mutual aid networks usually get established and then disappear a month, two months, whenever after disaster ends. People go back and put their own lives back together and they leave.

The climate ecosystem biodiversity crisis is going to get far worse, actually in rapid order, and it's going to continue for decades. We need to establish the social infrastructure in communities that can support that community cohesion phase over the long term. That's what the Transformation Resilience Coordinating Networks are and as part of that, they need to help people learn different kinds of resilience skills and engage in different kinds of resilience activities. I can dive into that in a second. But that's really what we're trying to do. And I'll just also say that we've been working on this for quite a while. We have TRCNs, they call themselves something different, in many parts of the U.S and Canada and other places. The UN High-Level Climate Champion Race to Resilience Initiative found out about our work over a year ago and invited us to become a partner. So, we're now working internationally on this through the UN Race to Resilience Initiative and finding that different countries, different nations, different communities struggle with different issues than we do in western communities and higher income areas.

Doherty: Yeah, this is great. It's like Paradise Built in Hell from Rebecca Solnit. In a crisis is opportunity in the sense that we can really build back better, and we can actually harness all the positive honeymoon phase human connections that come about in disasters because they do have this leveling effect temporarily. You didn't say it, but I think being proactive about this helps us to get ahead of disaster capitalism and some of the breakdowns. I don't know that you get into that directly, but I see you as standing in the way of that negative stuff happening.

Doppelt: Yeah, we do actually get into a bit. We don't label that. I will say that Rebecca's work didn't talk about what happens after the community cohesion phase. And that's really what's important. Then you go into what we call the disillusionment phase because people have to go back and put their own lives back together so that cohesion and that community support no longer exists. And that can last for months or years and that's the disillusionment phase. That's when most of the mental health and psychosocial problems emerge. That's why we need to establish this social infrastructure over the long term, because we don't want that disillusionment phase. We want that support to be there.

And what we also find is that one of the things driving much of this is the social isolation and loneliness that people feel in western and higher income nations that is very toxic today and is getting worse with social media and other kinds of things. This brings people together and creates the social connections, the social cohesion and social efficacy needed to address these common problems. And it has to happen, or it has to start in the communities. And what we find is when communities come together or neighborhoods come together to do this, it takes a while, and you normally wouldn't like each other or they have different political views, but they create the political power to push for change at a higher level. And that's really key. But we don't talk about that being the goal, initially. First, help each other out so that people will help you and you can help others. And when you help others out, you often find new meaning and purpose in your life, you feel good about what you do, you have meaning, and that's what helps prevent mental health problems or heal them when they emerge.

Pihkala: Yeah, that is impressive and so important. And at some point, in our conversation, I do want to go into this topic of meaning and purpose, which I also think is highly, highly essential. And listeners, you may be familiar with the resilience concept and some of the criticism against it. I think it's a valid concept, but some of the main criticism is that if only people return to a previous state of affairs, that will not be enough. And this transformational resilience that Bob is talking about by name goes beyond that. So, it points to growth in these processes. I hear that when you talk about these issues, but do you want to say something more about this transformation aspect?

Doppelt: Yeah, that's a very good point, thank you. When we first started the ITRC, now 11 years ago, we had a team of about 12 people who came together to try to form it. And we had about 30 to 40 emails flying back and forth between people trying to come up with the name. Because what we were really talking about is a post-traumatic growth, in used psychology terms, or adversity-based growth. We thought that was too wonky for the general public, so we called it transformational resilience. But, after many emails trying to come up with a nice name, what this really means is that what's happening with the climate emergency is that our way of life and how people live and what they do is being challenged. Our economic model is being challenged. We're seeing the push back on that now in the U.S.

In other words, what the climate emergency does to many people is it shatters their core views, their deeply held assumptions and beliefs about the way the world operates and their role in it. That's a classic definition of trauma. That's what trauma is about and that's only going to get worse as the climate emergency worsens and we'll have greater push back against it then. Oh no, it's not really happening or whatever. But what transformational resilience means to us and what we teach and what we help communities engage in is how to use adversities to not just bounce back to where you were. For many people, it wasn't a very good place in the first place. Why do you want to bounce back to that? And especially the way we live, our high consumption rates, our high fossil fuel rates, etc., are all not helpful to bounce back to. So how do we use the adversities to find new sources of meaning, purpose, and hope in life that actually increase our sense of well-being and the well-being of others well beyond what it was before. Because it wasn't all that healthy before for many people, and certainly not for the natural environment. So that's what we mean by transformation resilience. How do we use this experience that is just going to continue and grow worse to actually catalyze really fundamental individual, collective, economic and other kinds of changes.

Doherty: Yeah, this is all really great. And we're going to put some links in the show notes to the networks that Bob is talking about because I think people might want to get involved. And this is a global initiative that Bob's involved in. It's systemic and that's what's challenging about the terms because like I say in this project I'm working on, when you're thinking big, you're not thinking big enough, right? We always have to keep realizing there's another level and another level and not get too concrete. Systemically, if you help in one small area of your life or in someone's life, then it filters into other areas. And if we draw down carbon in one part of the atmosphere, it helps the whole atmosphere. So, underneath all this, I think there's a systemic insight that that is one of the foundational and juicy parts of this. Bob, how did you get involved in systems thinking? Because that seems to have animated all of your stuff going back. Do you have a story about that or how that came into your life?

Doppelt: That's an interesting question. I don't remember. It was many years ago. I think it was because I was in the environmental field, and you learn systems thinking even if it's not called that. Then I just started going to some workshops and found out how to describe it more graphically or specifically. But, let me just say one other thing in terms of terms. We work with different groups in many different continents, and you have to use different terms, different phrases that resonate and make sense to the culture and demographics of the age groups that you're working with. And we often find that we don't know what we're doing initially. And we have to share different phrases and ask people to share with us how they see these issues. That's how we learn the way that makes the most sense. You have to resonate with what is already there. Scientific facts and figures mean nothing to most people. It's their mental models. It's their assumptions of how the way the world works and how they work. That's what they see the world through. You have to try to understand that as much as possible.

Doherty: It reminds me of SustyVibes. We spoke with Jennifer Uchendu in Nigeria and their term of sustainable vibration, SustyVibes, which if they're not already familiar with your work, there'd be a good contact. That's helpful for all of us to realize. We have to be a cosmopolitan like you. We have to be able to speak different languages, go into different communities and kind of when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Pihkala: Yeah, exactly so and regardless of various terms and various styles of life, there is still the lived experience of being alive in this strange time of global warming and biodiversity loss and all the other things. And I strongly resonate with this task of trying to listen and understand and connect with other people's experiences and then try to find ways towards increased transformational resilience or transilience which is a word that some scholars suggested a couple of years ago. Adversarial growth or post-traumatic growth has also been one of my interests and I've done an analysis of the traditional categorization of that and then comparing that to people's experiences amidst environmental issues and environmental emotions. So, I've benefited from your work Bob on that project also, but I do want to talk about the very practical resilience skills which you mentioned. So, could you share some of those practical skills and methods that the coalition uses?

Doppelt: Yeah again, thank you for that question. The most important skill is really a process, and that is to build social connections across geographic lines, economic lines, racial lines in the community. And when you do that and we help different community groups learn how to do that, we also help encourage them to help people learn what we call presencing skills, which are self-regulation and co-regulation skills. Skills to calm your body, mind, and emotions and skills to help others do the same that you interact with, that's co-regulation. And once people have calmed their nervous system, we don't usually talk about it that much in those terms, then they practice what we call purposing skills. So presencing and purposing. And purposing is how do you find new meaning, purpose, and hope in these adversities. What can you do? And most of the time, that involves rising above your own interest and trying to help others and help the natural environment. But the starting point often, not always, when we're working with community groups is to build those social connections. So there's programs that do that by holding potlucks for neighbors and having people just get together and get to meet them. The San Francisco neighborhood empowers program, which now they defunded it, which was too bad, was very successful. They would shut off entire streets in urban San Francisco and bring tables out and put tables in the middle and have potlucks. People on high rises would come down and share that. And then after they did that a couple of times, then they'd form a resilience network, a coordinating network, a steering committee of neighbors that wanted to do it. And they'd develop a resilience plan for the community, and they'd share it with everybody. It was a very, very successful program.

There's many other examples of ways in which communities and neighborhoods can build those social connections. And as doing that, then you add these presencing and purposing skills. If you have a meeting, say let's just take a brief, what we call a resilience pause, but each group can call it something different. Let's just take a moment to calm ourselves. And there's a wide variety of age and culturally appropriate presencing skills that you can use. Sometimes it's breath-based, sometimes it's feeling the sensations in your body, sometimes it's just telling jokes and laughing often. Lots of different ways. You connect the different skills together and you help people understand that you have to stay calm and learn how to find meaning in life given all these other adversities that are going on. That's what purposing is. And I can get into purposing skills too if you want to know about that.

Doherty: That's pretty practical, Panu. Did that answer your question?

Pihkala: Yeah, that's exactly the level of detail and practicality I was hoping for. And if you want to say a bit about the purposing skills, I think that would also be fascinating.

Doppelt: Yeah, listeners, just think about what gives their life purpose. What do they find meaning in? And many times, most often for most people, it is the connections they have with other people, the relationships. But sometimes it's art, or it's helping animals, or helping other people in the community. It's hard to know. And there's other things. Each person's different. For some people, it's spirituality or religious beliefs. We just ask people to think about what helps them find meaning and you ask people how you find that and how can you connect that source of meaning with what's going on now in this disaster. Or how can you find new sources of meaning. What we often point out and we mostly ask questions is do you find that you learned new skills, that you had more skills than you thought you had or strength that you thought you had when you did that kind of work. They say, I didn't realize I could speak up for myself or whatever. And that's what transformation resilience is really about. It's about helping people understand that they can use adversities as catalysts to learn, grow, and increase their sense of well-being, mostly by just becoming aware of skills and capacities they already have that they haven't been using and then applying that to what's going on in their community and their family life.

Doherty: Yeah, this is great. Listeners, we had an episode recently with my friend Greg Hill, who's much like Bob in doing neat work for a while. We talked about eco-friends where we have these people that we know, and we follow, and they inspire us. So, I got a lot of flavor of this from hearing Bob because even though we haven't actually chatted about this, we tracked very similar thinking over the years. So, it really is validating for me personally to hear your approach because it's similar to how I think about things. I love the presencing and purposing language. That's a key. It's more important than we realize, the language that's flexible enough for people to grab on to. That's not super academic. I'm glad we're talking after I'm writing my book because then I would have to go add a bunch of stuff in. But I do list Bob's program in my resource list. The power of art, the power of spirituality, relationships. What do they say, don't have a meeting, have a party, don't have a meeting, have a potluck. It makes it much more universal and much more human no matter whether you're in Oregon or Africa or Finland.

Pihkala: Indeed so, and we'll put some links to previous podcast episodes. There's one where we discuss various types of meaning in life for example, which is closely related to what Bob was just talking about. We are reaching our usual half an hour length, but I'd like to ask you Bob if you want to share something about what kinds of presencing and proposing skills are important for you personally in this very troubled time? Is it still the river-oriented stuff that has been dear to you for so long? Would you like to share a couple of those that are personally very meaningful?

Doppelt: Yeah, we don't live in a city, we live out in the country because I need nature around us. My wife is the same way. My wife was a veterinary technician for 29 years. So, connection with animals is very much there. But we have a group of friends that we still go rafting with when my arm doesn't hurt me too bad. That's the problem with getting older, that stuff can hurt. But also, for many years, I've practiced meditation and mindfulness. I'm a mindfulness-based stress reduction instructor and I teach part-time at Spirit Rock Meditation Center in California. So, I practice those. But most importantly is just finding ways to laugh. We've got a group of friends, we just had dinner again and about once a week we have dinner with a group of and we laugh. We become 12-year-olds and laugh at the silliest things even in the midst of what's going on with the U.S. now and the presidency and we find ways to laugh about it. And I keep doing this work. My wife keeps asking, when am I really going to retire. Well, this is what gives me purpose and meaning.

Let me say one other thing just so we can get it on. If you're interested in forming your own Transformation Resilience Coordinating Network in your neighborhood or community, you can go to our website and use an application to fill out and then we invite you to become part of a community of practice that meets every other week. And there's people from all over the world that join and sometimes we're teaching skills, sometimes we're just having conversations to problem solve with the different groups and communities. We also provide an ongoing educational program about this where they can just sit through a series for a five-week period. They don't have to attend all; they can just get the slides sent to them afterwards. So, there's lots of ways to get involved. You don’t even have to join us. Just think about how you form a mutual aid network in your neighborhood and community. Get your friends together, talk about it, and get a vision together. What are you trying to achieve, what would be different than this happening now, and see if you can get that established because this is what we’re going to need all over the world as the climate emergency worsens. So, I encourage everyone to try to find a way that they can get involved.

Doherty: Yeah, thanks for adding that call to action because that's perfect. We'll put that link on the website. If you're listening to this and this is inspiring to you, go check it out, Transformational Resilience. You could find it pretty easily. And again, it's nice that this is flexible. You can move it in the direction that's good for your community. Well, Bob, I just want to thank you. It's a long time coming to get you on the podcast. I'm so glad that we did. Now we can connect some more and maybe get on the river sometime in the future. We'll say goodbye, listeners. Panu, are you going to get some rest? What's happening at your end there?

Pihkala: Well, what's happening is that the sun has already set in Finland, so time to get some rest and perhaps laugh a bit before that. Thanks, Bob, for all the practical and systemic wisdom you've shared. It's been a great pleasure.

Doppelt: Thank you both for having me and good luck to both of you and all of your listeners.

Doherty: Alright, thanks everyone and everyone be well.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

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image credit | **Alex Vasey**

Season 4, Episode 22: Climate Therapy in Italy with Camilla Gamba and Lucia Tecuta

Thomas and Panu engaged with therapists and researchers Camilla Gamba and Lucia Tecuta, who shared their cosmopolitan journeys into climate psychology and eco-therapy. Lucia and Camilla described their bicultural backgrounds in Italy and the US and challenges and opportunities in translating concepts like environmental identity and stewardship into the rich Italian cultural and historic context. Join us for an inspiring discussion of activism and “il dolce far niente.”

Links

• Camilla Gamba

• Lucia Tecuta

  • Academic
  • Climate Reality Project: How the Climate Crisis is Impacting Italy
  • Club Alpina Italiano
  • Via di Francesco Pilgrimage Route
  • Mika Waltari (1956) The Etruscan
  • See Season 4, Episode 21: Climate Psychology in Italy with Matteo Innocenti

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I’m Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is our podcast, the show for people around the world who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and environmental issues and their relationship with nature and the earth and of course politics and life. And that's all fair game for our conversations. And we love to talk to people around the world because of course Panu and I are far apart. And today, we are very happy to have two special guests coming in from a country that I love, Italy.

Gamba: So, I'm Camilla Gamba. I'm a therapist in private practice in Milan, Italy.

Tecuta: And I'm Lucia Tecuta. I'm a clinical psychologist and psychotherapist and a researcher at the University of Bologna, calling in from Bologna, Italy.

Doherty: I know Lucia and Camilla through my eco training group, and I've actually been colleagues with them. We have not met in person, but we've been colleagues now for a while. So, it's been really exciting to track their innovative work in Italy around climate psychology and eco-therapy. And I know they've met Panu and Panu has spoken with them. So, this is a nice reunion for us. Panu, you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Warm welcome also on my behalf, lovely to see you again. It also brings warm memories from last December and our meetings in Northern Italy. I know that you both have been listening to the podcast too, so you know that we have this habit of asking something about people's journeys that lead them to who they are so that's one for you also. It would be lovely to hear something like that.

Gamba: Sure, Lucia, do you want to go first?

Tecuta: So, I guess it's a little bit convoluted, but I would start off by saying a bit about how I grew up between Rome, which is where I was born, and then around the age of six I moved from, this big metropolitan city to the East Coast, to the States. I lived a little in Maryland, a little in New Jersey, so I moved from a more urban context to a more, I guess, privileged area. And I had the privilege of growing up with a backyard in Maryland. So, I feel like that's where I really started to appreciate nature and develop that nature connection that was missing for me while I was a kid, living in a big city.

I think part of why I do the work that I do right now, sort of coming full circle from my early experiences, is and actually I heard someone talk about this book in their childhood on another podcast about how they came across this book called 100 Ways Kids Can Save the Planet. I was drawn to it as a kid and that's really where I started to become more aware of what was happening. It was the 90s and Al Gore was vice president and there was a lot of talk about the ozone layer, and I remember being a little bit anxious about that. Now that I look back as a researcher that looks at eco-anxiety, I recognized my feelings as a kid as a form of eco-anxiety that I was feeling at the time. And then that ecological awareness went dormant a little bit through middle school and high school. Then, I moved back to Rome when I was a teenager and came into contact with pretty politicized youth. That's where I became more aware of the economic and social systems that we live in and social injustice.

It all came together for me in the last couple of years through my awareness of climate change. I had some events that really shook me, to use a colloquial term. Most of that is the really intense heat waves that are coming through Italy in the summer. Part of that is also the really bad hailstorms that came through Bologna. This was all right before COVID. I would call it an eco-awakening. After those events, it sorts of all came together and I realized how it's all connected. And that brought back that ecological awareness that was lost throughout the years. And I think also becoming a mother had a big impact on me, just everything sort of you know multiply times a hundred. Just being scared not only for myself and my family origin but also now my son and his future and future generations and what they're going up against.

And then, I guess coincidentally, if you believe in coincidences or synchronicities, I guess another term we could use. I had the chance to sort of brainstorm on psychological constructs to study in relationship to sustainability and eating behaviors. And I was looking at the literature and I actually found your paper, Panu, on climate anxiety and eco-anxiety. And that just rang like a thousand bells in my brain. And I realized, this is what I was feeling first of all. So, it was really validating and really important for me to put those pieces together. And then I was able to give that as an idea that we could look at this, in relation to eating sustainably, but also eating disorder risk. We don't really know how these things sort of move together. And so that's how I feel like everything sort of came full circle starting from like my early childhood experience and the teenage years and being really politicized and coming into contact with anarchists and communists and socialists and all of that. And then the climate eco-awakening bit. And so, I feel like I've finally started to find my place in what I think I should be doing. That’s also thanks to your course, Thomas, that really helped me. It's a big, big puzzle piece to all of this. And then meeting like-minded colleagues who also became friends like Camilla. That's another big piece of this.

Doherty: Yeah, eco friends, as we say.

Tecuta: Eco friends, yeah, to take a turn from your past podcast. So yeah, that's my journey in all of this.

Gamba: Yeah, so my journey is not too different from Lucia. I was born in Milan. My dad's Italian. I lived here until I was eight. Back then, now still to some degree, but back then there was a lot of cement and a lot of air pollution. And then, we moved to California where my mom is originally from. It was a much healthier style there I'd say, where we were growing up in Davis, California. I moved back to Italy when I was 18 and kind of like Lucia was saying, in my time in school in California, I had a lot of awareness of ecology, ecological crisis, and starting to be aware of climate change. So, to some degree, I feel like I've always had climate anxiety without knowing what it was. And then, I like the term used Lucia, the idea that it was dormant for a while. And then in 2021, it was in the middle of the California wildfires and COVID. And I went back visiting from Italy and had what I can call now an eco-awakening. Back then, it just felt like something really disturbing was happening. And so, I did what you do, which is you Google your symptoms and somehow came across the term eco-anxiety and came across your website Thomas or maybe some of the videos you had on YouTube and I found it really interesting. I signed up for the course and, like Lucia was saying, a lot of the puzzle pieces started coming together and then something interesting happened, again the synchronicity, Lucia and I are in this WhatsApp group of English-speaking therapists in Italy. It's an informal group.

Then, I think one day Lucia posted something about research on climate anxiety. And I just jumped in there and said, hey you also know about this very niche thing in Italy, because at the time, it felt like I knew very few people who were talking about this. And then we just kind of rolled with it. We took the course with Thomas; we started translating a few things that we thought would be useful. We translated the Climate Psychology Alliance handbook into Italian as well as the climate emotion wheel, we thought that was a really cool tool. So, that's kind of how we got started. And Thomas definitely also gave us the courage to say, just get in there and do the work, even if you don't feel like you know it all. You don't have to know it all to start doing this work, so here we are.

Pihkala: Thanks for sharing all that. That's very interesting and wonderful to hear. There are similarities in people's journeys and then all kinds of nuances and differences. So that's always very interesting to hear. And we'd love to talk a bit more about the actual work you are doing around climate psychology and environmental psychology in Italy. But perhaps we could start by asking you something about the Italian relationships to the modern human world and perhaps especially if that has an impact on how people see issues related to climate change and environmental change. I know this is a very big question and there's a lot of variation inside each country, but it would be interesting to hear some of your observations on that.

Gamba: Sure. I think one of the first things to say is that Italy is a very varied country, meaning each region has its own very specific history, its own language, now they call them dialects, and its own culture. So, I think it depends on where you go and also thinking about the specific history in relation to the land, how the land has been used over time, who's been occupying and using the land and who hasn't is very different from region to region. A lot of Italy is very densely populated and a lot of the territory, if it's not urban, it's most likely agriculture. So maybe that's one piece around the relationship to nature. And then we have the Alps and the mountains, which are maybe one of the few places that people can go to and do go to if they want to feel that they can get away and commune with nature. We're sharing with Lucia, thinking about how we can represent Italians' relationship to nature? It's a tricky one because it's been very built up. The coasts, for example, cater to a certain type of tourism. I feel like there's very little nature left there. There's a lot of cement, a lot of places that cater to tourists who maybe want to go and listen to music and dance and be on the beach with their aperitivo. The same is happening more and more to the mountains, ski resorts. So, there is some tension around that.

Tecuta: Yeah, there's been a lot of, I guess what you could call illegal construction or development in a lot of natural areas. For example, a lot of the coast is privatized with what I guess is called beach clubs. So, I guess the relationship with nature, I don't want to use words that are too strong, is not particularly respectful in that sense. A lot of destruction.

Gamba: It feels like nature's been sacrificed to cater to economic wants.

Tecuta: Right, economic growth and tourism, like Camilla was saying, that's definitely a big, big issue. So, it's very difficult. I imagine for whoever's involved in conservation efforts and things like that. And Italy went through quite a dramatic economic boom, I guess in the 60s. I think after World War II, there's definitely a lot of poverty and hardship, a lot of migration from the South to the North, from Southern agricultural areas to the Northern cities that promised more work opportunities. So, it's dramatically changed probably in the last 70, 80 years or so. And I feel like in the Italian collective unconscious, this idea of an association between being in the city, and probably this is common in a lot of cultures and countries, but moving to the city or living in a city is associated with having made it somehow, right? Having left, sort of poor conditions and hardships. So, it's hard to find outside of specific environments, for example mountain areas, an appreciation and a respect for nature.

Gamba: Yeah, it's also really hard to find in Italy. Coming from California where we have big wilderness spaces, it's really hard in Italy to find large, intact, healthy ecosystems. In Italian, we don't even have a word for wilderness, which I always thought was really interesting. But having said this about certain types of tourism, there are a few trends that I think are interesting. One is hiking and people really wanting to enjoy the mountains for what they are. In Italy we have the CAI, it's the Club Alpino Italiano. It's a really large non-profit organization which is in charge of what the US Forest Service does. So, they make sure that the trails are kept nicely and they do a lot of trainings and things like that. They have a fantastic rescue service, which I recently had the opportunity to test. I broke my ankle hiking, and I got a really good rescue operation taking place. So, shout out to the CAI volunteers or all volunteers. And then another interesting trend is what we call here agriturismo. So, tourism that goes to agricultural places is one of the ways to reconnect with nature. They might be going to farmhouses or places where they're enjoying both the place and the environment, but also the food. Because of course, food is a big part of the culture here.

Tecuta: Yeah, there is definitely a movement for slow food, organic farming. And it's interesting, there's also a very niche trend of younger people. Most of them sort of migrate from the south to the northern cities to go to university or whatever, but then being frustrated and sort of disillusioned by the economic crises and the recessions and not finding jobs easily. Some of them are actually moving back south, back to more natural settings and even opening up their own small farms and going back to those kinds of roots. So that's another interesting trend, sort of trying to take care also of whatever nature is left. And then there's also another interesting movement now that I think about which is confiscated lands from the mafia. There are several associations that take those lands and of course they try to clean them up or try to give them back to the people and turn them into something socially useful. And you can even buy some products in some supermarkets that use whatever grains or raw materials to make pasta, coffee, or whatever it is. And so, when you buy that product, you're buying something that's from the confiscated mafia lands. And you're giving money to these really great initiatives. So, there's little niche movements here and there that kind of give you hope that some good is happening.

Pihkala: Yeah, that's very interesting and for many listeners depending on where you come from. It's fascinating to think about these geographical and ecological factors. In Europe, we have places like the Netherlands, where there's even more management of nature, more than the human world. Then in Italy, there's more than in Finland, partly because there's been more population and older human history, so there's been more time to spread. I have to mention a very interesting historical novel by Mika Waltari, the greatest historical novel writer of Finland in 20th century, which is about the time of the Etruscans and that transition time where there were still animistic beliefs in Italy among the old tribes, but slowly the Roman Empire was building up and the changes were happening. Anyway, that's slightly an anecdote. But Lucia, you went in the direction of counter movements. And I would guess that if there's a strong utilitarian hegemonic attitude, there might also be more ecological counter movements. And I met some interesting young people, shout to Lorenzo also here. So, would you like to say a bit about those?

Tecuta: Sure, I think Camilla's more familiar with the work that Lorenzo does, if you wanted to talk about that.

Gamba: Yeah, I'm trying to think of what Lorenzo's doing, but also the network. I think that's also really interesting. I think the counter movement also involves a lot of just people pooling resources together in a very informal way. And so maybe some people like Lorenzo are bringing in a lot of eco-somatic work. There are different people doing different pieces, the psyche and the local lands and the community and the body. They’re putting all these different pieces together. That’s kind of what's coming to mind, maybe like this web that different people are weaving. And yes, Lorenzo is part of the web and Lucia and everybody doing a little piece and creating altogether in this counter movement. Nobody has the manual of how to do it. And I think we're all just trying something different and doing it together and seeing what works. There is definitely a lot of enthusiasm and a lot of interest. Maybe we don't know exactly where we're all going with this, but it's kind of fun to watch it evolve and emerge. I don't know, Lucia, if you have a similar view of all this.

Tecuta: Yeah, I mean there's growing interest and curiosity in people that work in more mainstream settings. Like we've been contacted by journalists recently to talk about climate psychology and nature connection. We're trying to propose workshops and collaborate with them. For example, there’s the Earth Festival that's coming up in Turin in November that we're thinking of offering a workshop at and yeah, it's definitely a work in process.

Gamba: Yeah, it's sort of a new thing to be a psychologist and to be talking about nature more than the human world and climate change. I think one of the things we've been finding is the more we are getting to know people, the more people are getting to know about the work, then we're starting to get interest. And so, then it's about planning and writing project proposals and getting funding. Lucia and I are just about to finish recording an eight-hour climate anxiety eco-psychology course that's going to be available for therapists as part of their continuing education credit. So, there are lots of things emerging.

Doherty: Yeah, this is really wonderful. This is what we hoped to do today. We also talked to Matteo Innocenti recently and we'll have an episode. He's a psychiatrist in Italy that you both know. And of course, he's working on disasters and the flooding. That's another whole theme we could get into, which we don't have to get into details. I think the general theme that I'm hearing over all of this episode, and listeners, you can think about this, is just the idea of translation as a theme. Like we're translating these ideas. Both Lucia and Camilla have this international cosmopolitan life where they know American culture and Italian culture. So, they're translating and there's a really fruitful translation. Well, obviously many people in America idolize Italy and the land and the connection with family and the whole culture. And of course, there's this idea of rewilding and being in nature and wilderness and these kinds of values for the US. So, there's this cross theme, which is beautiful.

There are so many more connections, we can't forget Pope Francis and his work as being one of the most potentially one of the most influential environmentalists of our era and I know the Catholic Church is also huge and diverse as well, but still we have these voices. We’ve got the pilgrimage tracks in Italy and the religious culture and its working land and nature. It’s just that depth of modern human history that literally you can excavate ruins. So, it is beautiful. So, I feel like you both are so well positioned because the pressures of climate change are going to make people more aware of their connections with nature. Years and years ago, Theodore Roszak was talking about eco-psychology, and he wanted people's connection with nature to be a celebration and something they love, not just a way called a grim duty to say the planet. So, I feel like there's this synergy between, I don't know what the word in Italian is, like joie de vivre or life philosophy, which is very nature based and the pressures of climate change and how to preserve. I think preservation of some of these treasured ways is also going to have to be a thing. Even with the Olympics and potential for snow in the Alps. So, you're just really well positioned to do whatever you can. You know, just do your part and then help new people.

Gamba: Yeah, the theme of translation is here, but another image that comes to mind is pollinators. You know, taking something good from here and bringing it over there and then making your eco-friends along the way. And so having that be a fun journey.

Tecuta: Yeah, definitely. And trying to also mesh different values. Because if we're talking about, I can't generalize to all Italians, the sort of long history of seeing nature as something tied to hardship and to work and trying to bring in seeing nature as something that is inherently valuable can be difficult to do sometimes, but really, really important. Especially in the context of everything that's happening, Olympics included. And not forget that or get carried away with just destroying what you need to destroy to make room for new stuff. That's definitely a theme for me.

Pihkala: What are some of the things, Lucia and Camilla, that you are passionate about when you think about the next couple of years and your sort of vocation on this planet?

Gamba: I think the whole theme of climate change is really important and I've been trying to get up to speed with being knowledgeable about what's happening and that's really important, but I do feel so much more joy when it comes to fostering nature connection and being in nature. I’m starting to do walk and talk therapy and trying to shift the setting of my work to more natural spaces. And what's really fun about this, going back to the eco-friends, is we've got a group of therapists who are wanting to do that together. So, the peer supervision thing to have that spread in Italy and to maybe get our professional boards on board with this to help us out with guidelines and insurance and all of that. That's something that I'm feeling really excited about.

Tecuta: Yeah, I think the same here. I'm working mostly as a researcher right now, but what I'd really like to do is spend way more time and dedicate more time to, besides the trainings that we're doing for colleagues and psychotherapists, working education or higher training or whatever is working more in the community. So even doing more workshops, like the ones that we've just started doing together to use nature connection, but I kind of want to say as a leverage that you should care about climate change as well. And sort of using that as Thomas was saying, use the joy to get people on board on what's happening, which is pretty dramatic here in Italy. The changes are quite drastic already and we’re seeing a lot of it. So, I would love to find a way of putting the two together and offering something that does spark change and hopefully get bigger players on board because you need the funding to do this kind of thing. So, that's definitely the direction where I'm headed hopefully.

Doherty: Yeah, this is great. As always, we could go on. We say every episode we could do another half an hour because there's so much to talk about. But listeners, I think this scratched the surface of the broad cultural trends in Italy and things that are going on. And we'll have some links to things that people might want to look at in our show notes. Camilla and Lucia, you can let us know about your training and various things. Maybe in that joy theme, and Panu and I are both really into language and this idea, what could listeners around the world take away as a word or a concept from Italian culture? You don't have to have the perfect one, but what are some things that come up about words or phrases or concepts that evoke this connection with nature, beauty, family, and the earth.

Gamba: So, the first thing just popped into my head, so I won't think too hard about whether it's a good answer or not. It's the “irimedi della Nonna.” It's a big thing. So grandmother's remedies. So that's usually the first go-to thing. If you have an upset stomach or a runny nose or a headache or cramps or whatever, then you're going to go to “irimedi della Nonna,” which is bound to be nature-based.

Tecuta: Yeah, that's a good one.

Doherty: Yeah, that's beautiful. We'll get the proper spelling of that. Make sure we get it in there.

Tecuta: I actually thought of another one which is so typically Italian, the one that everyone knows, but I don't know if it's right for this context, but the one that came to mind is “il dolce farniente,” which is like the sweetness of doing nothing. And I like it in the context of climate change and everything that's happening to our political and economic system as a way that's subversive. You don't have to consume, you don't have to produce, you could just be. I think it ties really well with enjoying nature. Because in nature, it doesn't ask anything of you, right? Which I think is something that's so great that you get from nature connection. You're not there as a consumer, as a worker, as a part of this machine like the system that we live in.

Gamba: Yeah, and there is a sweetness to that, right. Il dolce, the sweet, farniente, doing nothing.

Tecuta: Yeah, enjoying just being because that's so important to recharge to be able to stay in the movement for the long run if we're thinking about climate change related work.

Doherty: It's perfect. In the U.S., we have this idea of rest is resistance and then the nap ministry, which is a radical claiming of an African American culture of claiming the ability to rest. So, there's a radical side to it. I think my stereotype of Italy is that you might rush a little bit in the city, but people don't rush. That's not a cool thing to do. You want to be elegant and move slowly and savor life and so I think that's a piece. I also think that joy of being in the sun or being in nature and just this the fruit of and sweetness of life is a multicultural ideal and it is something that gets threatened and taken away. So, it's something we have to protect and teach people to do and teach our children to do.

Gamba: Yeah, and Italians are really good about enjoying the food and they want it to be from good ingredients. Mindful eating is partly embedded in Italian culture and just being aware of the ingredients and where they're coming from.

Doherty: Yeah. So, breaking down some of these artificial barriers between wilderness and nature and being the right environmentalist and all this kind of stuff. This has been great. We're going to stay in connection because we're all working on shared projects. And I have been to Italy years ago, when I was younger, but I look forward to getting back again.

Gamba: Yeah, it would be great to meet you in person.

Tecuta: Yeah, let us know.

Doherty: Yeah. Well, Panu, what's the rest of your evening like here?

Pihkala: Thank you very much, Lucia and Camilla. It's been wonderful discussing these things with you. I really loved the words. I think I'm going to practice some blessed undoing for the evening.

Tecuta: Good idea.

Doherty: And where are you both going today for the rest of your evenings?

Gamba: Just relaxing at home. We've been working hard, Lucia and I, so I think a good rest is resistance maybe.

Tecuta: Yeah, exactly. I could rest relatively because I have an almost four-year-old coming back from school soon. So, I'll try to come up with some restful games to play with him.

Doherty: All right. Well, this has been beautiful.

Gamba: Thank you so much.

Tecuta: Thank you for the opportunity to chat.

Doherty: Listeners, I hope you enjoyed our little international cosmopolitan translating conversation today. Listeners and all of you, be well. Take care.

Pihkala: Take care.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

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The Climate Change and Happiness podcast is focusing on our colleagues in Italy this season. In this episode, Thomas and Panu spoke with Milan psychiatrist Matteo Innocenti to discuss the growing awareness of climate psychology in the country. Matteo described his personal journey inspired by witnessing the effects of pollution in South Asia and how the COVID-era loss of his grandfather—a key environmental role model —inspired Matteo to devote his research to nature and issues like climate anxiety.

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image credit | asaf

With the coming of spring in the northern hemisphere, Thomas and Panu looked ahead to the summer and reflected on how we can no longer take for granted (or trust) that the seasons will be as they were before. What may have been a benign and clement season may now bring unexpected and uncomfortable weather – and even extreme or dangerous conditions. This profound change affects our mood, identity, families, and life plans. They referenced their own experiences and examples from art and literature. Join us and prepare for your own new season.

Links

• Zadie Smith: Elegy for a country’s seasons
• Poem by SZ Chao: “Not all warmth consoles”
• Soft Loft Summer Sadness
• Lana Del Ray Summer Sadness
• John Cox Weather For Dummies
• US NOAA / National Weather Service Climate Prediction Center Long Range Forecasts
• Australia 2025 Summer Forecast

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I’m Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, this is our podcast. It’s a show for people around the world who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and global warming and the environment and our lives and our wellbeing and our happiness to the provocative question of what it means to be happy in the modern world. And this is one of the Thomas and Panu dialogues. We haven't had a chance to just talk amongst ourselves for a little bit and catch up on the world. We have a bit of a theme because we're looking ahead to the summer in the northern hemisphere so that's sort of our theme or coping with seasonal changes and hopefully being able to roll with all the changes in our world. So that's our theme for today. Panu, what's the latest from Finland? How are things going over there? What have you been up to?

Pihkala: Thanks for asking and spring has finally arrived in Finland. Well, it's been sort of back and forth and global warming makes it more random. So, already in March there were some really nice days, but then we had a period of really cold, nasty wind from the north type of days, and we had some spring flowers covered in snow, which makes for a kind of nice aesthetic effect, the whiteness of the snow combined with the colors of the flowers, but it's not very good for the flowers themselves. But now it is warm, young people are going out on the streets of Helsinki, lots of students there. Easter is coming and on one hand, there's lots of good spring full energy around and then on the other hand, Finns are of course worried about the global, political, economic, and environmental situation as so many people are around the world. So, it's a mix of things as usual.

Doherty: Hmm, so we have the seasons that we know really well, like spring, I could talk about that here. It’s high spring here where I live in Portland. The daffodils bloomed a while ago, the trilliums have already peaked, the wildflowers, at least at the low elevation, and the higher elevation wildflowers are going to be coming in the next couple of months and literally the air is perfumed by blossoms. There's a bush in my neighbor's yard that smells nice, and I could smell it when I walk outside. And so, such a gentle, nice season, the spring. But yes, well, I'll share an anecdote and then we can get into it, but I actually got a chance to see the Portland Symphony yesterday. I've been trying to educate myself on classical music and they have a nature theme this season. And so, they had Beethoven's sixth symphony, Pastoral, which is a famous symphony that people in the know would know about. They also did Vaughan Williams, The Lark Ascending, which is another famous piece, an incredibly beautiful violin piece. The Pastoral Symphony was done around 1803. Like a lot of the symphonies, it's a programmatic symphony. It's about walking in meadows, and it tells a story of being in the Austrian meadows and mountains. But it's very formulaic in the sense that there is going to be a spring and it's going to happen this way and if you go to the mountains, you're going to find all this stuff. There's a sense of eternity about it, that this is it. I think that's part of the gist of this conundrum with the seasons that they still exist, but they're not as secure as they used to be. We can't trust that they're kind of eternal like the seasons of our grandparents. We literally can’t go back to the seasons of our grandparents. So, I think that's the rub of it.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for voicing that and I’m strongly resonating with that. In some earlier episodes of this podcast, we have touched upon the impacts of seasons on people, and I've shared that I have some symptoms of the seasonal affective disorder type, which for me the worst time is from November to February. So, I had to take some methods to cope with that. On a fundamental psychological level, I think that this continuation and alteration of seasons has been hugely important for people and a big source of safety, as you say, Thomas, and one might even speak about sort of ontological safety or security. I’m using a bit of a technical word but meaning that it's intimately tied with structures of the world. And there's some psychologists like Robert Jay Lifton, who we also have mentioned several times, who have observed the disturbing impacts of seasonal change or the randomness of it on people. And that seems to be affecting more and more people around the world. And on my desk at work is an article about various kinds of texts and eco-emotions. So, it's with literature scholars, that's one of my cooperation fronts so to speak, and it's quite interesting to observe what various writers, authors, and poets have written about this change of the seasons over the years.

Doherty: Yeah, there's a lot of directions to go, but we think about mood and music and then there's family, right? Because I think we were talking earlier, we all have our plans. I mean, people in the northern hemisphere often make plans for the summer season if they're going to try to take a break or a vacation or do something with their friends or their family or go outdoors. I have a wedding. My sister-in-law, Jessica, is getting married on the solstice, June 21st, in New England in Massachusetts in the US. So, people commit to things. They commit to travel or vacations or even really treasured things they've been planning for years. In the ‘old days’ you could just plan for the season. When I taught my wilderness therapy class at Lewis and Clark, we did a week camping in the graduate program. I always did it the second or third week of August in Oregon because it's statistically the driest time of the year. So, when you would go camping in the woods, it would generally not rain, and you know it's going to be nice. But now, I wouldn't do that because by that time in the season you could really have wildfire smoke. So that's changed. So, if I was going to plan that again, you'd want to plan it earlier in the season. I'm sure there's a listener out there that has a wedding this summer because people will get married in the summer. I'm sure there's someone who's planned a wedding and they're fretting about how the weather's going to be. And that's hard, but you can't just say okay I'm planning a solstice wedding, so I know the day is going to be long and it's going to be nice. I mean, hopefully it will be, but it could be hot and there could be wildfire smoke. We don't know.

Pihkala: Yeah, that's definitely the state of things now and it's impacting my inter-European travels because it may be so hot in Central Europe or Mediterranean Europe that for a Nordic person it's sort of too much. It's too much for some people who are living there and of course this theme of changing seasons is almost a matter of life or death for some people. For example, who get their living from agriculture or are living in areas where global warming is already causing very severe effects that the heat can be unbearable. So, I’m just wanting to name that. Most of our listeners probably are not living in such dire contexts, but if somebody from there is listening, I just want to say that we feel you.

Doherty: Yeah, thanks for bringing that up. That's also the gist of it too. There's social justice issues and environmental justice issues. There's the book, Tales of Two Planets, about stories of climate change in a divided world that I was looking at recently and edited by John Freeman, who's a famous literary person. There are two worlds. So, we have the people that are planning their wedding and they're catering for what hors d'oeuvres and snacks they're going to have at their wedding and then there are people that are afraid that their house might burn down or that they have to move and carry everything on their backs, as refugees. There’s a variety of people that listen to this podcast so we want to lean into the positive stuff that we can appreciate and know, but also recognize there's all these other unknown lives out there as well.

Pihkala: Yeah, exactly. And one of the texts I was reminded of when doing research for this article about eco-emotions and literature studies was by Zadie Smith, the famous writer who did an essay in 2014 called Elegy for a Country's Seasons. The ingress text is that it’s hard to keep apocalypse consistently in mind, especially if you want to get out of the bed in the morning. So that sort of resonates with quite a number of episodes we've been doing in this podcast. But Zadie Smith is also writing that every country has its own version of this local sadness related to changes in seasons. We'll put a link to that in the show notes and this genre of elegy. It goes close to lament, but it's related to sadness, and also related to beauty in a sort of deep way, and often to moral outrage. So, it's quite an interesting genre, I think. How would you pronounce it in English, by the way?

Doherty: Elegy, yeah. We'll put a link to that. It's a really beautiful essay that uses some dark humor and also talks about how the recent immigrants to the UK see it as this climate changed place with hot weather and flooding. Whereas the old school still has the Charles Dickens white Christmas memories when the river Thames would freeze over which doesn't happen anymore. It's ironic. I got a chance to go visit London with my daughter a couple summers ago and I got to take her there for the first time. I was speaking at a conference, and it was the hottest day in history when we were there. We were at the British Museum in London, and they had to close the museum down because it was too hot, and the air conditioning wasn't working. And actually, the second day after that was the hottest day. And we were at Stonehenge, seeing this incredible Neolithic site, which I thought about my whole life, and it was also the hottest day in history there. So that's what happens. And we survived it, and it was purely just a discomfort thing for us, not a survival thing per se. But it is ironic and for my daughter, who's 17, that is normal life, and it is so strange. If you're over 20, especially if you're over 30 or 40, it really is a different world. So that's wild.

Pihkala: Yeah, the sort of baseline assumptions of what the world and the weather and climate are like are different. And I think we've sometimes named in this podcast the technical term of ‘shifting baselines.’ Somebody has used ‘shifting baseline syndrome’ even to refer to what people tend to regard as a sort of normal environment and conditions, those ones which were prevailing when they were children themselves. And that means that it's difficult for members of different generations to really get a grip of how things were or are in the experienced world. So that's also a challenge for environmental education. And one of the things I'm doing right now is teaching this course on eco-emotions that I have designed and led at the University of Helsinki. It's online and I've recorded most of the lectures last year. So, it's mostly going through the students' essays and grading them. It's very interesting to read the reflections and, without revealing anyone's identity, I can say that there's some people who actually fear the summer. Exactly because they fear that it may be too hot and then if there's a lot of wildfires around, they feel global empathy and then they feel distress because of the news and knowledge about what's going on in the world and how other people and other animals suffer. So that's a thing happening in Finland also. When thinking about this, I was reminded of one of the poems in this 2020 poetry competition on the Climate Crisis and You by SZ Shao. The title is “Not All Warmth Consoles.” To fear the summer, the sweetness of fruit in decay is one line or a couple of lines from the poem. We'll put a link to that. So, some people are testifying to these kinds of emotions.

Doherty: Yeah, exactly. For listeners, you can take all this in. And this also applies to people in the Southern Hemisphere. I know Australia is on track to have the warmest winter in history. And the snowfall that they do have is likely to be less. I haven't looked at New Zealand, but I assume New Zealand is going to have a similar forecast. So, people who look forward to snow and skiing and the snowpack for the climate, will also change. So, it goes both ways. But listeners can think about all the different emotional parts of this, the practical parts of it, and the poetic parts of it. And then what to do… What do you think, Panu? How do you cope with this? Do you have any things you tell yourself? You have children and try to plan the summer as well and you have your life. How do you handle it in your family?

Pihkala: Yeah, well, there's plenty of dimensions to that issue and generally one way to cope is to write about it. So, I think that’s the poet who wrote “Not All Warmth Consoles.” Probably not the whole intention was related to coping, but that's part of it. Expressing some deep emotions and existential questions and thoughts. By doing that in public, it may also help others. And of course, it's a complex dynamic and it would be good for people to engage with arts that are sort of suitable for their situation. What I mean is that I think it's important that we have arts with various moods in relation to the ecological crisis. It would be good not to have just dystopian, catastrophic themed arts, or not just optimistic, how are we going to solve these issues type of arts, but a wide range of artworks. Then people can engage with various kinds of art. In my own family, the boys are now nine years and eleven years old, so they are growing up and thinking about things. The older one is a keen reader of newspapers. The Helsinki Times, Helsingin Sanomat has a kid’s newspaper which is a weekly paper. So that's been a nice one in sort of leading them into a culture of reading the news. And of course, I also try to recommend that he not read the news just before he goes to bed. It’s something that he often likes to do. By all estimations, he is not seriously distressed, but of course he is sort of worried and quite pessimistic about the planet's future. So, it's an interesting situation where I'm sort of keeping an eye and other senses open on what's actually in his body and mind and how he is feeling and coping. But so far, it seems that he's been able to hold that information but also enjoy life and function in the world at the same time. That I think goes to some of the quite deep dynamics of the matter.

Doherty: Yeah, that's an important point with children. So, it could go either way with children. Some children are naturally, I was going to say naive, but they don't think about these things. They're just looking forward to the summer and they're not overly thinking about the weather. But then some kids could really get into researching or even anxiety or catastrophizing or start researching disasters and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, as a parent, getting ahead of it yourself and like with all parent climate coping things, you've got to have your own house in order in terms of your own mood and how you're thinking about it. Moving toward it versus avoiding it, I guess.

Pihkala: Yeah, and I was about to ask, I know that you have been working hard in finishing the forthcoming book and I hear that the title is actually in the final form and will also be related to climate anxiety. What kind of advice about coping are you giving in the book? Would you like to share some of that?

Doherty: Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, Surviving Climate Anxiety: A Guide to Coping, Healing, and Thriving is going to come out this fall. And it's already on pre-order on Amazon. The first part of the book is about coping. There's a chapter on how to think, a chapter on how to feel, a chapter on your body, essentially, how to de-stress, and then the fourth chapter is how to adapt. I have the reader go through what I call their own IPCC report or their individual problems with climate change report, which is essentially kind of what we're talking about. It's like, what does your individual climate report look like? So where do you live, and what is the typical weather there, and how is it changing, and what are the dangers for you. It is literally like making your own climate report because you have to think about the history and what do we know and then what's going to change and how much can we predict based on what we already know, which we know a lot and where are my risk factors. So, it really works for anyone in any social class or any place because for some people, it’s worrying about their vacation property somewhere that's going to fall into the ocean because they're wealthy. The other person is worrying about whether their crop or their garden or their farm or orchard or their grape vineyard will survive. So, it's really looking at weather dangers where you live in storms or wildfires or smoke. But it's amazing when you actually lay it out, logically people can do it. You know, it's not that hard. The reason it's sequenced that way is because first of all, how are you thinking about this? Let’s get on top of your thoughts. Are you catastrophizing? Are you looking at both sides? Are you looking at the positive and negative? And then, what are your feelings? How do you feel? So that's all that writing. And then your body, of course. If you're freaked out and have a stress reaction and a fight or flight response, then you're not going to do well. But once you calm your body down, then suddenly you can have this logical inner dialogue about what are my risks. And then suddenly you're coping, you're adapting. It is possible to do. It's just that everything's happening so quickly and everybody's so overwhelmed that they're having a stress response and they don't know what they're feeling, and their thoughts are jumbled. And then, it's very difficult and it leads to this doomism kind of scenario. Does that make sense?

Pihkala: Yeah, it perfectly does. Thanks for sharing a bit about what's coming up there. In my work with the process model, for example, there's discussion of many linked dynamics and this reality that there's going to be different phases and stages and sometimes growth in coping skills. Then, there may be more difficult periods, but it all adds up. So, everything that we can learn in relation to how to think and feel as you say and how to cope. I would sort of offer that as a word of encouragement if there's somebody listening who feels a bit desperate about coping. So especially with the help of others, it's likely possible to grow in skills.

Doherty: Yeah, for sure. In terms of coping, there's a book called Weather for Dummies, which in the US, we have this series of books ‘for dummies’ that simplify topics by John Cox. It is really good. I know Bill Gates always recommends it in his reading lists and it is helpful to read that. Then, you could look at the US Climate Prediction Center from the government. Everything is in danger in the United States because of the great crisis in our central government. But we do traditionally have really good materials for climate prediction here in the U.S. All of that has unfortunately been politicized and a lot of it is being censored. But there is information that we can find so we can plan. So, there is no reason not to have a sense of what your season is going to be. And it's fairly clear that wetter places are going to be wetter, drier places are going to be drier, fiery places are going to be more fiery, stormy places are going to be more stormy. That's the gist of it. So, I think people can get ahead of this a little bit. Then there's all the music and the art. In my climate playlist for the book, I have a song called “Summer Sadness” by this band Soft Loft. And it's simply exactly what that is about feeling sad in the summer and trying to sort out things. The singer Lana Del Rey has another song called “Summertime Sadness” as well. So, there's a whole genre of songs that flirt with this idea of being sad in the summer for various reasons. And then there is summer seasonal affective disorder, a true psychological issue. The flip side of winter seasonal affective disorder where people get really irritable, they can't sleep. So, it's more an activated kind of depression in the summer than it would be in a more lethargic winter depression.

Pihkala: Yeah, when listening to you, Lana Del Rey's song started playing in my head, so that resonates. And listeners, there's a couple of episodes in the history of this podcast where we discussed these climate emotion playlists. And now, Thomas has some new playlist related to the book. So, I would recommend going back to those ones and music is also personally a major resource, both as listened to and as played. One thing we haven't revealed is that we actually got to play some music together when I was in Portland. There was the episode of us meeting in person and that was also nice, and I think something which is ancient and universal and hopefully that might happen more often again in Western industrialized societies - doing music together.

Doherty: Yeah, exactly. I think the takeaway as we wrap up today is thinking ahead to your season and committing to be your best self and to have your eyes wide open to what you're getting to so you can adapt. The other term is climate adaptation. So, we have to learn to adapt and change our life to fit the changed world and part of climate adaptation is survival and it's really basic. The basic base of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. We have to make sure we have food, shelter, clothing, but then there is self-actualization and living our lives and following through on our dreams. And life doesn't stop. So, it's all of that. And I think it is possible. Like anything else, the sooner we get thinking about it, the better in terms of getting ahead of things. Whether that be a vacation or a wedding or fixing your house up or your living situation or thinking about your job. I feel for people that are in really extreme situations with this, but all of us have our story. Well, let's wrap it up. This was really nice. I always get a lot out of these conversations. This is part of it, just talking about this with people especially those who care and understand. So, listeners, I hope you felt heard and witnessed out there. And yeah, keep us in mind at climatechangeandhappiness.com. Send us your thoughts or ideas. You can send a message to us on our website. And I wish everyone health, wealth, and safety here for the new season. Panu, what are you heading for the evening?

Pihkala: Well, since it is a nice, warm spring evening, I'm probably going to spend some time outdoors and take a look at those spring flowers. How's the day ahead for you, Thomas? It's your morning.

Doherty: Yeah, I've got to get some work done today. I've got to try to be productive today on my book project and on my psychology work and all this kind of stuff. But it is a really pleasant day as well. I also have to clean up my front porch, put my plants in better pots and do a lot of those seasonal spring things that are really pleasant. So, that's where I'm at today. Anyway, Panu, be well and listeners, be well. Everyone take care, keep in touch, and we'll talk to you next time. Bye bye.

Pihkala: Take care.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

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image credit | Mika Luoma

What does it mean to be self-sufficient and to live sustainably? How should we balance our use of modern technology with traditional living skills? Panu and Thomas discussed these and other questions with guests Mette Hartonen and Niilo Syväoja, who shared their perspectives as young adults from Finland. The group discussed ways to translate the concept of a self-sufficiency community to different cultural contexts – similar terms and ideas can include that of an eco-village, intentional community, or off-grid community, and practices of voluntary simplicity, traditional skills, living off the land, and permaculture, etc. Join us for an inspiring discussion.

Links

• Omavaraopisto School of Self-sufficiency
• European Ecovillage Network
• News Story: Mette, 21, lives independently and spends only 120 euros a month
• A Classic Self-Sufficiency Reference: John Seymour (first published in 1976) The Complete Book of Self Sufficiency
• Basics:10 Important Traditional Skills
• 10 Off-Grid Communities You Should Consider

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I’m Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, this is our podcast. This is a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and other environmental issues and their relationship with nature and the natural world and the earth and how they make their living, and how they move through their day. And through Panu’s connections in Finland, we're lucky to have two guests with us today.

Mette: My name is Mette Hartonen, I'm 23 years old and I hope to live as sustainably as I can and teach those skills forward to others.

Niilo: My name is Niilo Syväoja and I'm an actor and right now I want to act as an example and maybe a good elder for future generations.

Doherty: Great. Mette and Niilo, thank you so much for joining us. And Panu, I'll let you get us started. Maybe you can share a little bit about your connections in Finland and we'll be off and running.

Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Mette and Niilo. Very glad that you could make it. We've been meeting each other over the last years in various places. Niilo used to also work with youth workers and I think that's when we first met. I was advising a project which Niilo was organizing about climate change awareness for youth workers in cities and municipalities and things like that. And climate emotions were one part of that. Finland has a nice array of summer events. The sun hardly sets during summer, which gives good time for meetings. And with Mette, we've been meeting at this lovely arts and environment festival in Ärjänsaari, Ärjä Island, pretty far up to the north. That is also geographically pretty close to what is called Omavaraopisto, School of Self-Sufficiency. It has the original translation. We'll come back to some American ways of talking about similar issues like living off-grid and those kinds of things. You both have also, in Finnish media, talked about how increasing those skills of living self-sufficiently or sustainably or off-grid has brought feelings of efficacy and alleviated some eco-anxiety and distress. So, there's plenty of themes to talk about, but it would be lovely to hear a bit about your journeys towards this time and place where you are now. And if you want to talk about the ego or emotional dimensions of that journey, we would be most open for that also. So, whichever of you wants to start would be lovely to hear.

Mette: Yeah, I can begin. So, for me it started in high school when I got the burnout. I had studied really high, aiming for Harvard to study. And I just realized then that I want to live completely differently. I started for the first time to think about what do I actually value in life? And I got a dream of a garden and a quiet, calm place in a forest where I could live in a simple way. And at that time, I also started for the first time to read about the environment and seeing that the food that I buy from the shop can be grown with child labor or in unethical and unenvironmentally friendly ways. So I wanted to know where my food comes from and also the energy I get. So then I felt a huge amount of eco-anxiety and also loneliness because I was living in northern Finland where I was the only vegan in the whole town and I was really longing for finding people who could share the same values and interests. So, slowly I started going towards the dream. I first went to the wilderness guide school in Lapland. It was really nice to learn the skills and also recognize plants and mushrooms and living really simply. We had long camps in the fjälls and long trips. And while I was there, I found the School of Self-Sufficiency which was located really close to my home in northern Karelia. And I got to the course there and I felt really relieved and happy to find a way to live aligned with my values and also find like-minded people for the first time in my life. That was basically the dream I had. There's a course for half a year. There are ten students and we learn how to grow food with our bodywork, so using only hand tools, growing most of our food, then making the firewood from the forest that we use for cooking and baking and also heating the houses. And then we learn different handicrafts and building ecologically with hand tools and also repairing the houses. So I really loved it and felt the relief of being able to live in a way that I knew my food was ethically produced. And it came really close. It was environmentally friendly and I could feel the meaning in my life. Yeah, do you want to continue?

Pihkala: Warm thanks to Mette and before asking Niilo to tell more about his journey, let's just stop for a little while here because this is very inspiring and a great example of how dreams which may seem pretty distant at first may actually come true. It requires determination and perhaps intuition to follow them. These areas in Finland that Mette is talking about are heavily countryside areas and as she mentioned, being the only vegan in town, that still happens in that area and we can talk more about this School of Self-Sufficiency founded by Lasse Nordlund and Maria Dorff, so that's some old Finnish farms which are then used for these purposes. But Thomas, do you have anything on your mind before we give the floor to Niilo?

Doherty: No, I think that was great. I would just echo Panu the idea of the dream. We talk about environmental identity here in our podcast, you know, we have a sense of our identity in relation to nature and the natural world that sometimes it's in a place of becoming. We have a seed of it in ourselves, but it hasn't been allowed to blossom because we're not in the right place. So I think we have a journey to find this sense of place and this sense of environmental identity and I think, Mette, that's a beautiful story of finding your tribe. And that's a very practical concern of people. Being a vegan, for example, and living in a family or a community where that's not common. That would be an issue that many people would understand in the United States as well. Niilo, why don't you say a little bit about your story.

Niilo: Sure. So, like I said, I used to be a child actor and also as a young teenager, I was in films and TV here in Finland and I was seeing lots of interesting things in this industry. Then slowly, as a teenager, I started getting interested in activism, first human rights and then I heard this word permaculture, and this sustainable lifestyle movement and environmental movement came closer to my life. And I ended up going to this NGO working for youth, like Panu said in the introduction. There, I focused on environmental education projects and slowly I started to feel that I want to go even deeper, and I want my own lifestyle that I had in the city to change to be more rooted. I heard about this place called the School of Self-Sufficiency. It's the only school right now in Finland that gives this type of study. There's several in Sweden, for example, and in other places around the world, but I think in Finland, we are still starting. So, I went there and it was really something that I also had been hoping for, like what you talked about with finding your path and going towards your dreams. And really, I learned a lot there. Now, I think my ambition is to go further and we’re looking for a place to live in that lifestyle ourselves and also to promote this kind of way of living for a wider audience internationally, but especially here in Finland. I think there's a lot of potential and people who want to really start changing the world by starting to live themselves in a more healthy and holistic way, more connected to nature and themselves even. This is a short intro.

Pihkala: Whereabouts are you two living at the moment, just for the listeners?

Mette: We are right now in Sotkamo, where I am from, and so that's in northern Finland also. And we have been looking for a place and I have for a while worked as a journalist in the local magazine and written about environmental topics here.

Pihkala: Might that region then be a place for that kind of place you are describing where that lifestyle could be practiced and promoted?

Mette: Hopefully. Depends just where we find the place and where also people are around and yeah, we are pretty open for all of Finland

Doherty: Yeah, this is great. We were talking earlier before we started recording how, at least here in the US, people are really focused on some really pressing disaster issues. As we're recording now here in early February of 2025, we've had some major disaster issues in the United States with the fires in Los Angeles. And there's different political upheavals and different reactionary political movements happening. It's easy to lose our focus and our connection with nature and the natural world and some of the basic things. So, it's nice to come back and put our feet back on the ground and I think, at least for Panu and I, perhaps some of the work that we're doing. So just to bring the listeners in, we have listeners in many countries and there's different terms and we can translate what Niilo and Mette are talking about into different ways. Niilo talked about permaculture, the idea of planting and setting up your living situation in rhythm with the cycles of nature. That is not a new idea. It's a universal idea that's talked about in many languages. Here in the US, we might have people that talk about being back to the land or living off the land or living off the grid or living a life of voluntary simplicity or using traditional living skills, either indigenous living skills, hunting gather skills or traditional handmade agriculture skills. We have intentional communities and ecovillages. So, this is a universal impulse, I think, and if we look at history, each generation and each time rediscovers this perennial idea for their own time. And we have our special unique time where we're living off the land and also talking on the internet across the globe in real time. So, it's just fascinating. I’m personally curious about this. We talk about managing news and technology and being on screens. How do you both balance and think about your use of technology, modern technologies like this communication we're doing with some of the traditional skills? How does that play out for you? Is that a struggle or do you feel like you find a way or are you still trying to figure it out?

Mette: Yeah, it's a good question. I have been exploring it. When I was first living in the School of Self-Sufficiency, I was probably one year without any smartphone or any connection to the internet except maybe once a month answering some email. So, I only had this old phone. And I really liked it. Then the shock was when I heard half a year later that Finland had joined NATO. So, I was in a bubble there. It was working for a while. If the world was in perfect condition, the surroundings of the place where I'm living would support the way I'm living. It would be possible, and I would love it. I use very little of the devices, I only have that old phone and then I use some random laptop for checking email and doing something else if that's needed. I think we also need a system change besides my own personal life choices. So that's why I want to also use the technology. Some old devices that are being used and thinking really carefully about the way I'm using them. So yeah, for me the shock was when I saw the closest forest near the place I was living was being locked down in two and a half years when I was living there. I realized that we need to do something so that our culture is promoting the more sustainable way of living. Because we were collecting a lot of berries and mushrooms from those forests, and they were really important in every sense just to go to a forest.

Pihkala: You mean that the forests were cut down?

Mette: Yes.

Doherty: How about you, Niilo? How do you manage the benefits and the shadow sides of technology?

Niilo: Yeah, I've studied this topic with myself or trying to figure out my level of addiction to smartphones, for example. And right now, I'm in this situation. It's also a very privileged situation that I'm able to use my smartphone in a way that I put the screen on black and white and I removed even the browser and I use it mostly just for a regular phone and some internet bank account things or what is needed. But I really try to keep it somewhere out of my pocket and try to detach myself from this technological device, that is a high technological device. What we learned in the School of Self-Sufficiency was mostly doing things with low technology and that it's the most sustainable way to go about as a community also. And it was really nice actually having this social bubble where not many people have that much screen time in a day. Many people didn't have smartphones and it was really, really pleasurable to just talk with people who are in the room and not on some social media. So yeah, that's maybe one part of this path that many people choose instead of being on the virtual side of life that you also enjoy the connection with nature and other people that are living beings next to you.

Pihkala: Yeah, and the School of Self-Sufficiency method has sort of revived interests into early 20th century farming methods and machinery, for example, because those machines don't require a lot of electricity. They are quite durable, and the community element is much present. It used to be in the Finnish countryside that for some things you had to do, you had to invite others. There usually wasn't enough labor in the farmhouse, unless you were really privileged and living in a manor, but that was a different thing, sort of a community aspect and helping each other out. So, in a way, this is a return to some of those dynamics. This could lead into discussions about back to land movements and also about decrease of purity. So, for example, should one cut him or herself off completely from modern technology and life. But, for most of the Finnish Omavarais self-sufficiency folks I've met, they haven't gone for that completely. As I hear you say that there's some aim to be as little dependent on that as possible, but also then living practically or pragmatically in the contemporary world where sometimes, contemporary healthcare is quite good to have and so on. I think also for the topic of eco-emotions, this idea of not aiming for moral purity is very important because otherwise people may get up into endless loops of guilt or trying to strive for perfection and we have talked about this with Thomas in several episodes in the history of the podcast, but Thomas what's on your mind when listening to this?

Doherty: Oh, I'm enjoying the conversation. Yeah, many, many thoughts. I'm working on a book on coping with eco-anxiety and I've been thinking about a lot of these things and reading. I mean, what's old is new. If we had a time machine and we could go back to the 1840s in the US, we could bring Henry David Thoreau, who was talking about self-sufficiency at Walden Pond and growing his own food and building his own cabin and looking at society. And at that time, he was making fun of the telegraph because they had this newfangled telegraph machine that could tell you what was happening in Europe and people were scrambling to know what was going on in Europe. And he thought that was kind of silly. He says, why do you need the news? Why don't you focus on what was never old? So, it's like this idea we talk about how the news is outside your door. The news is your life. Your life is the news is what I tell clients when they're doing a news fast. Just open your door and walk outside. That's the news. That's the important news. The natural world and your family and people that are truly making change in the world aren't sitting watching the news. They're doing their life, you know? There's something very empowering and yeah, trying to be radical about it in the sense of standing up for your values, but not being so grim that you're judgmental on people and cultish about it is always a challenge. I'll just say, we've spoken to people in Nigeria, Jennifer Uchendu, and we've talked to folks doing different, similar voluntary simplicity lifestyles here in the US. So, listeners I think all of us have a strand in this and when we talk about it, it opens it up for us a little bit, this possibility.

Pihkala: Thanks Thomas for that and that leads me to a question I wanted to ask you, Niilo and Mette, which is how did your close ones react to this path that you have chosen? I bet that there have probably been different reactions by different people close to you and perhaps changes over time. But I would be interested in hearing about some of that social dimension. I hear that you have got a lot of new meaningful relationships via the process, but how about it all?

Mette: Well, my parents have always been really open. They just wanted me to be happy. So, I think that's a huge privilege and we have thought that maybe that's also a key thing that we have been able to make those radical choices or choices that seem radical in this society. Well, my grandpa, he wanted me to go to university. He still tells me to, but I can just understand him. Maybe some of my old friends found it difficult if they had no environmental interest at all. So then I feel a bit more distant towards them, but the closest ones have even been inspired. My grandma said that she would come to the school if she was even a bit younger because that's the childhood she has also lived, growing up in the countryside and growing food and living simply.

Niilo: Yeah, like Mette said, we have been privileged to have parents that have supported all kinds of things that we've been aiming in life and taking this maybe not so traditional path has been possible because of that. It's very important, I think this is connected also to talking about this social media and these global, virtual communities that we have right now. Being connected to old friends and people who think differently or live different types of lifestyles. I think it's really important when you make your own life choices that you also keep people around you that also think differently and then you can learn and they can learn also. So, the point in the school also is not to create a bubble for any community that I would like to stay in, that you would just try to find very cultishly like-minded people, but really to have this kind of wide range of thoughts and ideas also about environmental topics or anything that you can think of in life. So, I'm also happy that I have friends who do very different things in life. I just called a friend of mine who is an airline pilot a few days ago and we have very interesting conversations about energy and society and all these kinds of topics. I think that's something that's very important that I feel grateful for also, thanks for reminding me about it.

Doherty: Yeah, I think there's a possibility to be what I call a ‘climate cosmopolitan’ where you understand different subcultures and there are many people around the world who care about nature and the natural world and issues like climate change and they approach things differently. And I think the ideal is where you could be comfortable going to spend some time at the School of Self-Sufficiency and then maybe go find some scientists that are working on some interesting research and maybe go find some social activists that are working in the inner city and realize we're all part of a larger, diverse community but we all believe some of the basic things and being able to kind of speak many languages I guess you could say is one way to think about it.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for sharing that and very good to hear about it. Niilo, you mentioned you have this history of acting and also via our conversations, I know something about your creative efforts for both of you. But I'd like to ask you what role do you think that creativity and art play in your life and work? Handicrafts were mentioned, so I'm talking about creativity here in a wide sense. But would you like to share something about that?

Mette: Yeah, well, I think it's really important to be able to express myself in all ways. I think also in the School of Self-Sufficiency, I was able to think about more sustainable ways in doing that. Painting with coal or dancing and singing and what are immaterial things and also finding new ways in doing the work we have because the work is done with our bodies, so it is possible to, with good planning, use creativity and also create beautiful things to our surroundings. And I also see gardening as an art. It takes immersion skills to be able to grow forward. It can be so beautiful by creating a beautiful garden that's also giving us food that we actually need for living. So my path for looking for creativity is a big way on that also.

Niilo: Yeah, I can continue because gardening is really artistic work. Especially now I just realized that in acting, for example, the timing is the most important thing. And when you think about gardening, it's also very important to know what to do and at what time. You start sensing things around you, like on a theater stage or in a film scene, you also sense things like other actors and objects and what's going on. In nature and in gardening you also have to see that okay is it raining today, or do I need to water today, or these kinds of things and you can take it into very fine levels that the founders of the school, Lasse and Maria, have done. So, it was very interesting to see their artistic process and just watch them doing things. Whether it's building a log house or just breathing and resting or doing whatever, it's a holistic art of being. When you try to live more sustainably, there's no breaks in between you. The whole lifestyle is an artwork, if you would like to see it that way

Pihkala: That's profound and for the English speakers to know, in Finnish language there's a concept called käsityötäide, literally meaning handwork art or handicraft art. And I hear you testify also to that, but to many other things.

Doherty: Yeah, things made by hand. Again, that's popular here where I live in Portland, Oregon. There's a lot of local artisans and craftspeople and what they call farm to table eating in restaurants where there's more direct connections between the city and the rural areas and the farming areas. So yeah, I do think that’s a universal human impulse. Every time there's an industrial revolution of some sort, there's a counter movement to bring back some of the things that we've lost. Sometimes to idealize old ways, but there's that practical thing, like you say, literally being with our bodies and our hands and our senses, we're kind of you rediscovering what it means to be human. From an evolutionary standpoint, our bodies are the same. Human bodies are the same as they were 200,000 years ago, exactly. It's the same, but our world around us has changed so much, but then oddly we have the ability to recreate almost every kind of human settlement if we want to. It's pretty fascinating.

Pihkala: Yeah, also fascinating has been this conversation which we soon have to start wrapping up to stay in our usual roughly 30-minute limit. There's been a lot of things closely related to coping with difficult eco-emotions here, either implicit or explicit, having a connection to others and to the modern human world, so-called nature, feeling the joy or pride or contentment when you are participating in growing something or seeing it grow or repairing something and doing something. And that dimension of emotions about the modern human world is perhaps not so often talked about, but I think it's hugely important these feelings of contentment and joy and even healthy pride sometimes. It's inspiring what you share with us, Niilo and Mette, and for the listeners, we don't want to give a picture that it's always easy to start these kinds of things. We haven't discussed the challenges and hardships very much and it hasn't always been easy for the Finnish School of Self-Sufficiency either. Let's not go into that in detail now. We don't have time for that, but through determination and collaboration, people have persevered. We'll put links in the show notes. There's an English introduction to that school also and some of the things that Niilo and Mette want to share. Any thoughts that you would like to briefly share before we start wrapping up, Niilo and Mette?

Mette: Yeah, I want to share the inspiration for learning. It was really a surprise to me that I could learn to grow food and most of my food and make firewood with an axe. And so, that's what I want to share. You can learn and there are people who are doing it. You can find them and then you can give yourself mercy in the learning that it takes time and you can listen to your pace and the possibilities and chances you have in life at each moment.

Niilo: Well said and yeah, what Panu was also pointing to is that there's a need for healing and regeneration in this time and this very meaningful lifestyle that you can find that has this holistic way of approaching things and also honestly about, for example, the energy descent that is happening right now. We are not basing our current society on any wisdom that is actually based on any truths. It's a bubble that is going to burst. That's maybe a harsh fact and a deep topic in itself to talk about the peak oil and all that kind of stuff. But if you look into that, maybe we can put the Nate Hagens link in the description or something like that to go deeply into this topic. This time is a changing event in human history. We are really at a point where energy is not going to be cheap in the future anymore. So, we need to change our way of how we see energy and how we work and how we build our life completely in a new way. So healing and regeneration are a very integral part of this change. I hope that everyone has this ability to share this caring and loving attitude to your own self and also others around you. Thank you.

Doherty: Well, that's also well said Niilo. And yes, the personal and the planetary are connected. So this is all good. This is such a great conversation. It brings me back to many positive things that I've done in my time that are similar to what you've been describing. So, listeners, I hope that this inspires you to follow these trends in your own life, wherever you happen to live, because this is a universal impulse at any place in the world. Listeners, thank you for your time. Panu, Niilo, Mette, I hope to meet you all sometime, possibly in person on the land. But as it was, it was really great to share this time with you all. Take care.

Mette: Thank you.

Niilo: Thank you both. And also, thanks Panu for inviting us and being a very strong person in the Finnish scene of climate emotions. It's also been very useful on my path.

Pihkala: Thank you, Niilo. And thank you both for joining us.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

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image credit | **Mara Ket**

Thomas and Panu spoke with accomplished Swedish climate psychologist Frida Hylander. Frida shared her journey into climate psychology, the founding of Klimatpsychologerna, and the initiatives in Sweden to support individuals and communities dealing with climate anxiety. It was validating to see the parallels between climate and emotions initiatives in the US, Sweden and Finland and notably many of the barriers are the same, such as the challenge of being a student trying to find a program that combines the study of psychology, mental health therapy and climate issues.

Links

• Frida Hylander: @fridahylander.bsky.social
• Climate Psyched
• Substack: Climate Psyched
• Swedish podcast Två Klimatpsykologer Möter (Two Climate Psychologists Meet)

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I’m Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, this is our podcast. It’s a show for people around the world who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and other kinds of environmental issues and all the different things that are connected with that. We like to say, we're all climate, all the time, all emotions, all the time. So, this is a time to be present with how we're feeling. We look at this in a lot of different ways and sometimes get serious and intellectual about the research and the background and also how this plays out in our personal lives and in our families. This is an international podcast, Panu’s in Finland and I'm in the United States and we do have listeners in 35 countries around the world. So, we do try to keep it international here and today we are keeping it international and we're lucky to have a guest with us.

Frida Hylander: Yes, hello. It’s lovely to be here. My name is Frida Hylander. I'm located in southern Sweden, Malmö. Yeah, very happy to be here.

Doherty: And, Frida, I'll have to make sure that I do this pronunciation as well as I can. That's a beautiful name. Panu, I know you both know each other and have had some familiarity with your work there. You want to get us started?

Pihkala: Warm welcome, Frida, also on my behalf. It’s lovely to meet you here. Finland and Sweden are neighbouring countries with a lot of common history. Luckily, the cooperation extends also to climate psychology and its various dimensions. So, we've met with Frida in that regard and Frida has been very active in the Swedish climate psychology scene. There's a very nice network of climate psychologists, Klimatpsychologerna, and we are going to talk about that more today, but there's also a newsletter in English called Climate Psyched that you have been writing and several of the fruits of your work are available also in English. Before we go into that in more detail, it would be lovely to hear a bit about your journey towards being so active with climate psychology. So, has that interest in the natural world been with you for a long time or how did it go?

Hylander: Yeah, so I'm a licensed psychologist and it's a specialist psychologist in psychological treatment and psychotherapy. But, as I was studying to become a psychologist, I also started studying human ecology, which is sort of an interdisciplinary field that investigates human's interactions with the ecosystems. And as I was studying that, I was really emotionally hit by the magnitude of the climate crisis. I think that's when I first sort of understood, both intellectually and emotionally, like how bad things were. This was back in 2008, 2009. Things were, in one way, looking better than they are now. Anyway, I was studying human ecology and I was really, really struck by climate anxiety even though I didn't have a word for that back then. I sort of struggled with that. But it also got me to really think that this is what I want to do for work. And I was really frustrated with my psychology studies because they were so individualized. We talked so much about what's going on internally and with people's thoughts and emotions and everything and different psychiatric diagnoses and stuff like that. But we talked very little about the surrounding world and what the future holds. I was very frustrated with my human ecology studies because we talked so much about the ecosystems and political ecology and inequalities and environmental injustices and so on, but we didn't talk about how people behave, how do groups, what makes different groups change, and how our society is formed and so on. So, I think that my path to becoming a climate psychologist or a psychologist working with climate psychology came very much from that frustration. So after I was finished with all of the practicalities to become a licensed psychologist, I started to find my way into working with this, but there's nowhere you can apply in Sweden to get a job as a climate psychologist. So, it's been sort of interesting trying to create that path, which I've done on my own, but very much more together with my colleagues in The Climate Psychologists, Klimatpsychologerna, which is a network that I co-founded back in 2018. Yeah, so I'm here due to anxiety and frustration, I guess.

Pihkala: That's a lovely testimony to the positive roots of negative emotions to use binary expressions. Thanks a lot for sharing that and that frustration with the individualistic tendencies in psychology. It’s something we have heard from many pioneering climate psychology folks in this podcast, including Ro Randall and Renée Lertzmann and others. Thomas, what's on your mind when listening to this Nordic story?

Doherty: Well, I'm really appreciating it, Frida. I was going to ask you about your background and if you found it difficult to study and so you answered that question. I can very much identify with that story and it's a very common story. I've just been trying to write about this actually for this manuscript that I'm working on. One way to think about it, these are transdisciplinary issues. They're issues that fall in between the academic subjects that we study and the scientific disciplines. And I literally have the experience where, students who are listening or academics will understand this, you go to the department and you say to the psychology department, professor, I'm a student and I want to study climate change and why people are concerned about these disasters. And they say, that's a really neat and really important thing but we don't work on the environment here. I want you to go down the hall to the environmental studies department and that's where they can help you look at this. Then, when you walk down the hall to the environmental studies department and you say, I want to study this, they say oh that's really interesting, but we don't do psychology and therapy here. Therapists are in this department, so they send you to the therapy department and it's a runaround and students are left in the middle. Tragically, some are even told not to take on this topic, it's too difficult, and you won't be able to get your degree so just do something safe now to get your degree. Then, you could work on this later, but then later sometimes never comes. So, it's a real issue.

Hylander: It is, yeah. And I think that's something that we very much notice here and as say the psychology education or psychology programs in Sweden, they still very much don't offer any training in these to prepare future psychologists to take on these issues. So that's something that we've been working on. I'm chairing a national organization for psychologists called Psychologists for Sustainable Development, which is part of our union and our professional national association. Part of the work we've been trying to do there is to contact the different psychology programs to see what they're offering and why they're not offering more on the climate and environmental issues, but also trying to explore what students feel like they need. And are students even aware that these are topics and issues that are important and that they will encounter in their future professional lives. But I would say it's not coming so much from the universities as it's perhaps coming from us or other engaged psychologists, unfortunately. And it's a slow process of trying to get stuff in. There are a few courses here and there in the psychology programs, but not very much.

Pihkala: And that's roughly the situation also in Finland. The only longer university course on eco-emotions has been run by me as an interdisciplinary research course. So, it's one of these in-between things. And in Sweden, there's been the strong presence of Greta Thunberg and the children's and youth climate movement. That really started getting stronger in autumn 2018. That's when I also first met Greta at the Helsinki climate demonstration where we were both speaking. Well, she's done a lot more of that speaking since then, but would you like to share something to the international audience about how you see those years in Sweden? I know that that's very intimately connected with any climate psychology work in Sweden.

Hylander: Yeah, 2018 was the year that we founded Klimatpsychologerna, or the Climate Psychologists, which we did in March, so in springtime. We were trying to figure out what we should do and what's needed. What's the work that needs to be done or that we can offer. Then came a very, very hot summer in Sweden. And we had quite a lot of forest fires that were quite scary. There was something about that summer that I think made people up here more emotionally aware of the climate crisis because it all came close. Then, that was when Greta Thunberg started her school strike which, at first, she was doing everyday leading up to the Swedish election. Then, we had the Swedish national election and I think the Green Party did a terrible election. But I think they were still part of the government. I keep forgetting, but I think they were still part of the government with the social democrats back then. But anyways, I think something happened on sort of the national level. I think the very hot summer was part of that. The forest fires and then obviously Greta's school strike and the formation of the Fridays for Future movement. So, I think also for us, we noticed that all the sudden, the media also became aware that this is actually an issue that affects people on a more psychological and existential and emotional level. So, we got very busy straight away and I think that was very much due to the forest fires and Greta.

Pihkala: And probably also the IPCC report which came out that autumn.

Hylander: Yeah, I'm not sure though.

Pihkala: Oh okay, well at least in Finland that was a big thing in addition to the hot, hot summer and children getting activated.

Hylander: Yeah, I think that's true. If the IPCC report had come and none of the other stuff would have happened, I think it would have just probably been another report. But I think it was so highlighted by the other stuff that was going on. I think one thing that also happened in Sweden then was that people became aware that activism is also a way to take action, to do your part for the climate. So, I think it's also in one way helped to shift the conversation a little bit from the very individualized discourse that had been before into a slightly more taking collective action discourse.

Doherty: Yeah, this is helpful. I think this is a universal story in many ways that different countries in different regions have their collective waking up moments here. I got a chance to meet Nathan Grossman, some time ago, the filmmaker that worked with Greta and did some of the film about her life and her trip to the US and to the UN. I want to turn this to some of the more inspiring parts of the work too because we've been talking about the difficulty of the work and the trenches in academia and kudos to you Frida for being a self-starter and for forging a path. Panu and I know how that is as well. But it does start small, and you never know what's going to happen. When Nathan started filming Greta, she was just a young girl sitting outside the parliament and had no idea that it would turn into an international media event. Before you started asking these questions in your studies, we talk about environmental identity here and our sense of our relationship with nature in the natural world, and that's a deeper thing than our academic studies. It starts in our early life and our family and where we grew up and our home place. When you look back, what do you think are some of the origins of your connections with nature and your sense of yourself as a person on the planet like this

Hylander: Yeah, it's funny. I've never really had a strong like nature identity or nature relatedness. I come from the west coast of Sweden, and I grew up in a sailing family. So, I think the sea and sailing has always been the closest sort of relationship I've had with nature, but I've never really been going out into the forest. I know some people have it very strong… I think I have that now much more, but that wasn't really how I came into this. I think my interests have been more urban, I guess, than nature related. But I've always been very, very interested in society and I really found the human ecology studies so immensely interesting. Also, to study about the political sides of how we use nature, but also how different groups across the globe use nature in different ways and how the Global North utilized resources from the Global South and then sort of sent back piles of shit. I think for me, that was more my way into this. But I think now, I have a much, much stronger and closer relationship with nature and maybe that also is something that perhaps comes with age, like my growing interest in growing plants and soil and everything. I also think it comes with this work and on a deeper level, realizing how immensely interdependent on nature we are and how we truly are nature, you know.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. And speaking of Sweden's international contributions, those old Ingmar Bergman films often include sailing images. Listeners, if you want to take a look, you can try to search for those and those also really go to the existential level, both joy and sorrow and those kinds of things. We can put some links to the show notes. There's quite interesting research about Swedish environmental activists. I don't want to go into detailed academic discussions here, but for example, about how they relate to the Swedish version of climate anxiety concept, klimatongest, because that became heavily politicized. It seems to me that it became more politicized than in Finland. In Finland, there was a notable shift after the autumn 2018 and the next winter. Before that, for example, for me it was much easier to talk with countryside people about climate distress because there wasn't this politicization yet. Then things got more complicated anyway, but there's interesting things to be read and also on these global dimensions. There's one article, for example, where there's interviews and observations of climate activists in Sweden and in South America, and how the emotions which come up also have differences because of these cultural layers and global solidarity issues and so on. So, we are all interconnected. It might be very useful for the listeners to hear a bit more about what you have been doing with the climate psychology network. What have been some of your major aims and major methods?

Hylander: Yeah, so we do quite a lot of different things in Klimatpsychologerna and there's five of us now in our little network and we're all licensed psychologists, but we have some different niches. So, some of us are from more of the clinical side to the more organizational side and so myself and another one of my colleagues, we work clinically. So, we do take on clients and that's something that I've worked with in general as a psychologist. Over the years, I have had hundreds and hundreds of therapies with clients. In recent years, they're almost only focused on people with climate-related distress. And we usually say that that's not the first thing to do when you're distressed about the climate, to go and see a psychologist. But sometimes the distress becomes so unmanageable that it might be helpful to also have some therapy for that. We also do a lot of lecturing about climate psychology and behavioral change, especially focusing on large-scale behavior change. In recent years, we've also got more requests to lecture about climate anxiety and climate emotions and workshops about that as well. That can be for schools, institutions, sometimes we lecture at different universities, but also for large companies, so commercial companies. So that's very wide. We also work on different projects. Sometimes we're just like consultants, consulted in and we offer our expertise on climate psychology and behavioral change. And sometimes, we run our own projects. For example, last year we finished a three-year long project which was aimed at supporting young people with difficult climate emotions. In that project, we developed a lot of different methods and materials and did a lot of workshops out in schools with students but also with teachers to help teachers become more sort of well-equipped to support their students. And then we also try to educate about climate psychology. In Swedish we have a good word called folkbildare. I'm not sure, do you have that in Finland, Panu? It's not just like educate, but it's more like we want the people to become more educated.

Pihkala: Yeah, sometimes I think education researchers use the German concept of bildung to describe that. In Finnish it's sivistys also.

Hylander: Yeah, so maybe that's the best. Sivistys, yeah. So, we do that, and we also write texts. I have a monthly or bi-monthly now international newsletter called Climate Psyched. I also write columns for Sweden's largest environmental page Supermiljöbloggen and sometimes we write texts in different papers and stuff like that. We wrote one book back in 2019 and now we're in the process of writing a new book which will come out next year that will be in English. It’s with the working title Harnessing Collective Behavior, Climate Psychology, and Resilience, I think. So, we do quite a lot of different stuff. I also have a podcast with one of my colleagues which is in Swedish called, Två Klimatpsykologer Möter, where two climate psychologists meet with different guests.

Doherty: That's wonderful. Yeah, there's so many parallels. It's really nice to hear. It's very similar to the US. I have colleagues that are working with organizations and with businesses and with local governments and listeners, we're talking about some specialized terms here because in academia, certain psychologists work in organizations and businesses, some work with individuals, some do therapy. There tends to be people that specialize in all of these areas and they're all important. So, it is quite amazing how similar it sounds to what I've experienced in the United States. So, that on the one hand is very reassuring that we know we're on the right path.

Hylander: Yeah, hopefully. I think also, at least for us, there's been no path. So, it's very much been us trying to forge a path and with that, I guess that also comes with trying different things and working in different ways. And I think that also sort of works well with our analysis of the climate crisis, that there's no one thing that we need to do. There’s a multitude of things that we need to do, and we all need to use the competence that we have in various ways and try and reach different you know groups and companies and individuals in various ways.

Doherty: Yeah, finding your place on the planet, digging in and taking action from there and trusting in the process. It's very hard right now. I know in the United States, we have a lot of very regressive politics happening that are really trying to censor. It's really quite strange because everyone knows the reality, but there’s still a lot of people working to try to erase, symbolically at least, the reality of climate change and various things and to address other social movements. So, in the face of that it's important to reach out across the world and realize that we're people are not alone. You know the takeaway from our episode and from all these episodes are listeners, whoever you are and wherever you are listening from, you're not alone. I mean we’re in every country. As you know, Frida, and probably talked about, 80 percent or more of people all around the world in every nation recognize climate change as an issue and want to make action a universal reality despite what governments in small places will try to do to turn back the clock. It's not possible. And so, the larger reality is here, and we are building this larger, more ecological world in all these steps. So, it is something to be aware of here.

Pihkala: Yeah, that's very inspiring, all the work that is going on. As so often happens in this podcast, half an hour goes very quickly and there would be many topics to dig deeper into. But Frida, I'd like to ask you about coping tips in your experience and you can approach this as a sort of combination of just a human being living in these times and as a licensed psychologist. So, what would be some of your top picks for how to cope with the world reality as it is?

Hylander: Well, I do think that one of the most important things that we all need in this time of parallel ongoing crisis is good social support. We need our little collective to feel that we're not alone. I think that is essential. I just sort of strengthen that belief with each person that I talk to that the social dimension is so immensely important and to feel that you're not alone and to feel that there are other people who share your emotions and worries and frustrations and sadness and sorrows and everything. So, I think that's key as much as finding ways of taking collective action and feeling that hopefully, with that, being able to feel like a sense of agency that there are things that we can do. We're not doomed. We're not helpless in this. Right now, there’s a strong, repressive and regressive wave sort of coming over us, but we're not helpless. And we need our collective and social support to feel that we do have agency. So, I think that's important. Then also just to find or give yourself permission to have and feel whatever you're feeling. I mean, it's so reasonable to feel whatever we might be feeling right now. We usually say that emotions are also information. They carry information about what's going on in the outside world, but they also carry information about what's important to us. So, if we're feeling worried or stressed or frustrated, that's also information about what's important to us. And I think that's something to honor in one way and just to give permission to that and to give some space to that. Then, I think the last thing that I would like to add to that is also how important it is to give yourself permission to pause from the big world and the ongoing crisis. I think that very much has to do with this being a marathon. This is the rest of our lives that we'll be dealing with the climate crisis and the other ongoing crisis. We also need to sustain that and to be able to do that. I think that we, every now and then, need to give ourselves permission to pause and to zoom in on the little life, but also to remember that there's so much in this world that's worth fighting for. There's so much in this world that makes all of the hard stuff worth it.

Doherty: Yeah, very well said. I know I'm personally validated to hear it's very similar to the things that I've been thinking about and writing about. And it's really nice to know that that's what you're all finding in Sweden as well. Well, Frida, thank you so much for coming. It's really nice. One of the things to be thankful for is that we have the opportunity for these dialogues around the world in real time. You and I have never met and here we are. Now we know a little bit about each other and can carry that into our days. Panu and I, being able to have these conversations twice a month, we feel connected and meet people. So, listeners, I hope you take something from this. If you're in Sweden or if you're in the United States or Finland or any other country, you're not alone in doing this work. We're Climate Change and Happiness. You can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. There will be some good notes about Frida's work and some of the links to her newsletter and upcoming book and all these kinds of great things. And Frida, Panu, listeners, everyone, be well and take care.

Pihkala: Thanks Frida, thanks a mycket.

Hylander: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

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image credit | **Toa Heftiba**

Season 4, Episode 17: Eco-Friends Part II: Thomas and Panu Meet in Person!

Here’s to in-person connections! Most people don't know that up until just a few weeks ago Thomas and Panu had never met in person. They had connected over long distance and constructed their podcast dialogue over the last few years solely through electronic means. So, it is very special to us that this episode was recorded over Thomas's living room table in Portland Oregon while Panu was visiting during his tour of the United States. So, join us as the pair discuss their podcast relationship, current events, and what Panu has been seeing and learning during his visit to Charlottesville, Virginia and across Northern California, and his hikes in the redwoods. This episode goes well with our recent theme of eco-friends, and we hope it encourages you to re-connect — in person — with someone you care about and who also shares your care for people and planet.

Transcript

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I’m Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, this is our podcast. It’s a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change, particularly their emotional responses and how they think about these issues and how it affects them in their daily life. And we have a special episode today. I was going to say I have

a special guest and that's technically true because I'm actually sitting here in person with Panu. A lot of people don't realize that we had never met in person until just two days ago. We've only known each other through a distance. Panu happens to be here in Portland and we're recording on-site in Portland, Oregon. So, we have a loose theme about connections, coping, and friendships. Panu's been traveling in the US and Panu, how are things going? How's your

Panu's trip to America been going so far?

Pihkala: Thanks for asking, Thomas, and a great pleasure to be here in Portland live. I also want to credit our audio person, Mark, who is sitting close to us and who usually also operates online and takes care of sound quality. Thanks for that Mark. It’s been a while since I was in the states. I try to be mindful of the environmental emissions of travel and then with Covid-19. People have been surprised to hear that we’ve been doing this podcast for more than three and a half years and we’ve never met in person. So, that’s of course the great benefits of modern technology, that it’s possible to do this. But, on the other hand, it’s great to be here and meet live. What brought me to the states was a conference at Stanford that was about applying humanities research into societal and public spheres. Its official name is a bit technical: Applied Collaboratory for Religion and Ecology Scholarship. So, there was an emphasis on people who studied the relationship between religion and environment and that’s something we’ve touched upon in previous episodes of the podcast. But while I’m here, there have also been other talks and meetings. One in Charlottesville, Virginia that was about working with eco-anxiety between academia and society and then meetings in San Francisco with people in the climate psychology field and meeting various folks here in Portland. So, it's been a very interesting road trip done in quite curious times considering the political situation in states and other places.

Doherty: So, you've been to the United States before and what are some of the things that you appreciate about the US. Or what are some things that you really enjoyed on this visit that are the best parts of this country?

Pihkala: People sometimes ask me that in Finland. What is it like to be in America? My longest period here was in 2011, almost half a year, when I was doing my PhD and that was mostly in Chicago but then also visiting other places. My only previous time on the West Coast was then in 2011. Since then, I’ve been to other places and there’s great wonderful people I’ve met on all of these journeys to the states. And of course, the landscapes and scenery are fabulous. It’s sometimes a challenge when you are living next to natural wonders at how much you are able to retain, an ability to appreciate how special those are. Well luckily many people do and there’s certainly lots of very special things around. Near the West Coast, during this trip, I had the pleasure of driving from Monterey to Oregon over many days. So, I saw the coastline and the mountains, and the Redwoods and those are really really special and reminded me of my early readings of folks like John Muir who loved the Redwoods. This was my first time seeing the Blue Ridge Mountains and they have some similarities with mountains in Scandinavia, there’s some ancient bedrock. But anyways, both people and the scenery. There’s lots of special things around here.

Doherty: Yeah, it can be really stressful if you get into the news and think about armed conflicts around the world and intolerance and economic issues and political problems. So, it's nice to remember that for a lot of us, we still like to visit people and travel, and there's nothing like going to a new place you've never seen before like the Redwood Forest in the US. You know, defies words, you have to see it to understand it. And how nice it is to be in other places like in Virginia, in Charlottesville, right? You were at the university there with Thomas Jefferson's architecture and things like that.

Pihkala: Yeah, it was a very interesting place. The University of Virginia, Charlottesville has this lawn and Jefferson designed the buildings around it and the students live right next to the lawn. So, during an ordinary evening, there's somebody playing the guitar and people doing sports. I joined a couple of guys doing frisbee. And that’s also something on one hand very ordinary but on the other hand so very important in times like this. These human connections and shared things to do and relaxation. I sometimes go distancing in the process muddle of eco-anxiety… Also, other classical things like hospitality along the road. I've certainly been benefiting a lot from that and I'm very grateful for that and luckily that human warmth we still have in the world even though the times are so tumultuous.

Doherty: Yeah, warmth. So, we recently recorded an episode with Gregory Hill who's a local environmental scientist here in town and is also a really old dear friend of mine. We have this idea of eco-friends, which I talk about in my upcoming book. It’s this idea of recognizing the friends that we have that inspire us in terms of nature and in the natural world and share our beliefs, share our values, share our connections, and share our outdoor activities. So, listeners, you can think about eco-friends that you have, people that you admire, or you know or that you do things together. I think it's really hard to do environmental work or to be environmentally minded without having some eco-friends. Or put another way, and you can tell me what you think about this Panu, but if you're trying to have an environmental identity or trying to do climate change work or any kind of sustainability work and you don't have any eco-friends, people to share that with, then I think it becomes really lonely and difficult.

Pihkala: Yeah, I totally agree and even though I have personally for a long time appreciated community and when I studied my university studies, I lived in a community for many years. But still, as times get harder, one really learns to appreciate community and as you said Thomas, as a theme that has come up in many episodes. For example, Laura Schmidt, the founder of Good Grief network and in her book, How to Live in a Chaotic Climate, she is summarizing community, community, community is something which is so needed. And that's something relevant in all corners of the world. It’s a very global thing even though, there's different kinds of privileges or injustices that people have to face when they try to build and upkeep those communities.

Doherty: Yeah, and we had a physical gathering here yesterday, actually at my home, where we gathered Panu and we had at least two guests that we've had in the podcast in the past, Mark, our production person, and other family members and friends and other really interesting people that were doing environmental work and sustainability work and many people had not met each other in person. And standing around the bonfire, it was really a good analog of connecting and people telling their stories. There were some students there that were younger, there were people that were more experienced and established. So, I think that's just such a key thing.

Pihkala: I’m very grateful to you for organizing that and having a bonfire. It’s a nice ancient element which brings people together and a similar dynamic was seen in San Francisco where people active in the Climate Psychology Alliance North America and other things like the work that reconnects networks. Folks came to talk with me and I gave a short presentation. Many said that they had never actually met each other live before. They live in the greater San Francisco Bay Area which is of course big, there’s been Covid-19, and everyone’s busy. So, I've been happy of this side effect of me being here and sort of helping gather people around that fact that some strange Finnish person is in town.

Doherty: Your visit is so rare that it draws people out to come and see you. There's a theme about maintaining connections, whether you do it over a distance, like Panu and I for almost four years have collaborated, worked together, created a podcast, and I've only just now met in

person just in the last couple of days. So, it's possible to collaborate with someone in another part of the world and really do meaningful work and know them quite well. And then you can also, if lucky, do it in person. So it's both. I have a question for you Panu and you might follow up but one part of travel, particularly going away from your country, is you get to come back home. So, I'm curious if you're already formulating some thoughts about what you want to bring home from your journey, you know, the hero's journey coming back to your community. So that's a question I had that leads to talking about your work. What do you have on your mind here?

Pihkala: That's a good question. And when I've done travel, that has been an important part of my history, but I've done it less now during the last 10 years for many reasons and with the family, we’ve done shorter range travel and trips. In my solitary travels, I’ve kept journals and have written stuff and two of them I actually typed into electronic formats of my younger days, and it's been really fun to sometimes return to that.

Doherty: Oh, that’s nice.

Pihkala: And now, there’s so much happening that it’s been a return to some of that mentality which I thought would be mostly gone so it’s been lovely to return to that and sometimes admiring the beauty around you and getting immersed in that. Of course, there’s also been challenging tasks of talking about things like climate anxiety and emotion research in times like this. So, I haven't just been having a light, fun time, but there's been many things around. Now, I've kept a shortish journal with both drawings and text, so that's been a fun experiment.

Doherty: So you're keeping a journal now?

Pihkala: Yeah, much shorter, but then I draw some small pictures and write something. So that's been fun and something I try to bring home. That kind of energy of having been blessed with some lovely things around the journey. Another thing which I’m bringing is the encounters with American people who are stupefied by what’s happening in politics. I’ve met a lot of people who are very passionate about environmental work and climate work and now a lot of other things are getting attention and sometimes there’s pushback in some political spheres against environmental and climate work. So, resonating with that difficulty and those challenges while also being inspired by the determination of many of these people who keep on working on these matters. I see a very practical strategy of keeping together and holding that community strong so that one is able to do that in troubled times.

Doherty: Yeah, that's a good theme for our talk today, keeping community strong. I want to make a note about that. Because yeah, I think the paradox with this work is, as I often tell people, it's worse than you think and it's better. So, whenever you get into any environmental or any kind of social issue, you often find it's worse than you think. There are more problems, it’s more complicated, there's more corruption, there's more suffering than you realized. But then it's better also in the sense that there are people doing things. The paradox of my work recently is that even though I'm working on tough climate issues, I do positive stuff all day, like meeting with people like you and the people that were at this gathering that I just spoke about. I had a chance to meet with Emma Marris this morning who is a very accomplished nature writer and we were chatting and so, there's a lot of gifted people doing things and that's why I always come back to be careful of getting too lost in the news because when you're immersed in the news, you get a sense that the world is really going to heck and burning up and you don't realize all the positive stuff that's going on. But yeah, maintaining community I think is more important than ever, whether it's protecting universities here in the US. We've got a lot of negative energy coming out of the government that's really so counter to the Thomas Jefferson idea of creating a university and worshiping knowledge and truth and things like that. We have people that are really actively going against truth and free thinking and democracy and free speech. Creating community is not a soft thing. Creating community is a form of strength. So keeping community strong is also a way to be strong in the face of threats to health and democracy. So, more than ever, I think we need to get together and meet with people. So listeners, you can think about that. Can you make a point to really connect with people mindfully? That you respect and support each other and not fall into fear. It’s always nice to complain and vent with people that we know and share our frustrations and be heard. So, there's nothing wrong with that to a certain extent, but if the only thing you're doing is complaining and venting or cycling around in fear, that's not healthy either.

Pihkala: Yeah, I strongly resonate with that. And we have an episode coming out where we're discussing with Bob Doppelt who is one of the leaders in community resilience work amidst climate change. Both he and, for example, Joanna Macy and Chris Johnstone have these exercises where people are asked to map things which affect them. Macy and Johnstone use this boat image, you know, what are some of the things that are weighing your boat down at the moment and what are some of the things that are lifting it up or carrying it forward. This can be done also explicitly in relation to social relations and community or relations with the modern human world. That’s something for you listeners, if you feel like it. It's sometimes useful to write these things down and think about how to find more balance and resources. And I guess, Thomas, that this comes pretty close to many methods that you use in your daily work.

Doherty: Yeah. You know, I want to think that the idea that we've talked about in the podcast is the idea of your environmental identity and your sense of your own identity in relation to nature and the natural world and climate change. And there's like a timeline of your identity from your birth to the present and all these experiences that you have that make you who you are. Then we have a whole extending the timeline idea, right? So, from today, we have tomorrow, the next day and however long we're going to live. And then, of course, our influence extends beyond our life. We influence things that exist after us. It's really how do we want to extend our timeline? How do we want to show up for the rest of our life? There's always fear of death underlying almost all the stuff that's going on here and so how do we realize that we are here for a limited amount of time, and we need to do the best we can and realize that the things we believe in and are working on are much greater than we are and longer than we are, right?

Pihkala: Yeah, there's a nice existentialist dimension emerging in you, Thomas.

Doherty: Yes, it is. This came up recently about just getting comfortable talking about death as part of life. You don't have to dwell on it or make it the only thing, but if we don't name it, I feel like it's infiltrating. Certainly, people are fearful. Some people are fearful in the U .S. right now of the federal government. And it can be a fear of violence, a fear of violence of being deported, being targeted in some way. A very violent, intimidating style of political leadership has emerged in the United States and it does thrive on fear and bullying.

Pihkala: Yeah, this could lead into rather deep stuff and some of this we have touched upon in some previous episodes and just to name some dynamics, there's this very interesting research called Terror Management Theory and I think that's very relevant to the times in which we are living and sometimes when people are reminded of deep and challenging things like mortality or losing power, they may react by trying to upkeep things as they have used to be even though that sometimes may be impossible and lead to unethical issues. Of course, there are many ways that one can try to run away from mortality and finitude. As you said Thomas, the time perspective really convinced me about Robert Clifton’s ideas that people are looking for signs in which they can see continuation of life even amidst mortalities and communities is definitely one of these ways for some people. It's the biological offspring in the community and in the natural world those things which one continues. So just naming that there's some links to really profound things here and that's an ancient wisdom but if you’re engaged enough with mortality, that can really help you appreciate being alive and living. So, I think it's a pathway towards more joy than sorrow actually, even though it may seem counterintuitive at first.

Doherty: Yeah, because I think that the psychology around Terror Management Theory is that when you are reminded of death unconsciously, you tend to have these protective behaviors where you get really rigid about the status quo, but that's different than actually embracing your limited life and enjoying your life as it is. When you're open about it, it doesn't lead to

those unhealthy things as much. This is really great. So nice to be able to talk to Panu here in my living room, live. We're keeping our connection going, so listeners I want you to really think about your connections and your community and can you find someone to connect with soon like Panu and I are doing today? It doesn't have to be someone from another country, it could be someone from down the block. Do you have any inspirations or kinds of things you're looking forward to getting back to when you get home? I know you want to see your family and your children, but what else are you looking forward to when you get back to Finland?

Pihkala: Well yeah, two weeks is already a long time away from the family so I’m very happy to see them again and in the US, cherry trees are blossoming. In Finland, that will be in May so now I get the chance to experience early spring sort of a second time, but there might be some snow and ice when I get back home. Also in Finland, with colleagues and friends, we’re thinking about what kinds of social community and action would be needed in times like this. Taking it more seriously on how troubled times are and thinking if there would be more structures needed, like more gatherings and new kinds of being and doing. It's really a sort of diamond process of thinking about that series. But also, of course, I miss the sauna a lot. So, I'm really looking forward to getting back.

Doherty: Back to the family, back to the sauna. Well, Panu, it's really nice chatting with you. I will look forward to seeing you next time we record. Well, some of the next times we record we’ll be back online, but it's really nice to see you in person.

Pihkala: Likewise

Doherty: Panu, have a good rest of your trip and listeners and everyone, be well.

Pihkala: Be well.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

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image credit | **Lauren Richmond**

Season 4, Episode 16: On Eco-Friends with Gregory Hill

Thomas and Panu had a warm conversation with a long time friend and colleague of Thomas, environmental science and advocacy expert Gregory Hill. They explored the idea of “eco-friends”—the close personal relationships we have with friends and collaborators that support and inspire us in our environmental values and actions. Greg recounted his life from early connections with the desert lands of Arizona to his discovery of Buddhism and classic environmental literature, and his varied academic career. He described his research on the Pacific salmon and his service with First Nations peoples in Canada seeking legal sovereignty. The conversation highlighted the importance of the community we have and how our friendships contribute to the long term history and stability of our environmental identities. While friendships are certainly a form of social capital, our eco-friends are especially important to hold dear.

Links

• Centre for First Nations Governance
• Roderick Nash The Rights of Nature
• Cairns, Johannes, and Panu Pihkala. 2024. ‘How Western Buddhist Climate Activists Negotiate Climate Emotions’. Frontiers in Psychology
• Tropical Salvage
• Global Alliance for the Rights of Nature

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I’m Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, this is our podcast. It’s a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and other environmental issues. We pose this provocative question, what does it mean to be happy in the modern world? And Panu is an emotions researcher and I'm a psychologist. Panu’s in Finland and I'm in Portland, Oregon, Panu's evening, my morning. We're really happy about a few things. I'm going to introduce a special guest here in a moment. We've also been looking at some of our podcast stats for 2024 and we have listeners in 35 countries, all around the world. We have thousands of listeners. We're not a huge podcast, obviously, it's a specialized niche but we do have thousands of listeners. And so, listeners, I want you to know you're not alone. There are people coming from all around the world. Some of the countries you might imagine like the US, Canada, and the UK, but also Bulgaria, Saudi Arabia, New Zealand, and Indonesia. And so, we have a lot of folks that are listening. And today, we have a special guest.

Gregory Hill: I think I'm going to introduce myself. I’m Gregory Hill. I'm an academic of all kinds of different subjects and hopefully still a good eco-friend.

Doherty: Yeah and Greg is here in Portland and he is a long standing friend of mine. Our episode theme today is this idea of eco-friends. It's a concept I kind of coined in this book manuscript I'm working on. It's not a complicated idea. It's just the idea that we have friends in the world that inspire us and help us to develop our own environmental identity and our own environmental values and we share our work and goals with them. Sometimes we work directly with them or sometimes we just hear what they're doing. Sometimes they're in a far field career from what we're doing, but I think everyone around the world can think about eco-friends that they have. It could be personal friends or family or colleagues or distant people. I would consider Panu and I to be eco-friends. We don't meet in person, but we know each other through the distance. And some friends are longstanding life friends and some are new. But that's the concept for today just to get into. So, listeners, I want you to be thinking about eco-friends that you might have and or can cultivate or find. Greg is a very interesting eco-friend. He's done a lot of things. He's originally from Arizona in the US and he's spent time growing up around the Grand Canyon and exploring in the Grand Canyon. He exemplifies a lot of the trend of environmental action over the last, you know, few decades. When he was younger, he worked in anti-nuclear weapons advocacy. He has worked around the world… In Indonesia in the forest reclaiming tropical wood, he has been a mathematician, an environmental studies professor, a baseball player, and a chess player. Now, recently, he does research on salmon and dams in the Northwest and works with First Nations people in Canada to assert their rights and autonomy. So really interesting possibilities. And Panu, I know you have eco-friends as well. And I'm sure in Finland, that's an idea that would go over well. Panu, do you want to get us started today?

Pihkala: Pleased to meet you, Greg. So, we have a quite different dynamic here between the three of us. I know that you two have indeed known each other for a long time, but Greg when you think about the roots of this vocation, you've had a strong interest and motivation to work with the natural world or the modern human world, what comes to your mind? What would you like to share about the roots and foundations and perhaps early life history in relation to that?

Bill: Well, the roots are certainly my mother. My parents moved to Arizona from Iowa. And my mother really took to the Sonoran Desert that I grew up in in Southern Arizona. Over my right shoulder here, I don't know if anybody can see this, there's a backpack and it's my mother's backpack. She and I would go backpacking together. Before backpacking, we were exploring the desert together when I was in the single digits age. So, she really taught me to appreciate nature, but also while appreciating the social life, like our social relationships. And that has percolated all the way through my entire career, where I study systems, specifically social ecological systems. I could talk just about my mother the entire time.

Pihkala: That's a good sign of a person and I can actually see the backpack. Too bad dear listeners that you can’t see the visuals, but it still looks in good condition with various marks.

Hill: It's got a lot of badges on it, some of which were because of directions that I made my parents drive when we went to California. We would drive to California and I would make them stop at certain places like along the Pacific Crest Trail, which is a trail that goes all the way from Mexico to Canada, up the west side of the United States. I would make them get badges and some of those badges are right there. They've been there a long time.

Pihkala: Oh yeah, that's wonderful. You have this strong interest in learning systems approaches now. But were there earlier phases in your engagements with the natural world or was there something that first motivated you which led to developing a more systems-like approach? How did that work for you?

Hill: Well, the systems approach definitely took a lot longer to develop. My first kind of explorations, Thomas was referring to some of them, like my exploration of the Colorado River and the Grand Canyon. I was a member of a backpacking organization. I was with a friend and we were the youngest ones. We were, I think, 14 when we joined. It was a little controversial to have kids that young. We couldn't drive, for instance, but we got rides with people all the way up to the Grand Canyon. And I had some really incredible experiences up there as a youngster, both social and ecological. I would help people because there were some older people on these trips and going down into the Grand Canyon can be pretty rugged. One woman who is my friend's mother came with us and she was really struggling and I carried her backpack as well as my backpack out of the Grand Canyon. Combining that social engagement with nature is old for me. And I didn't think of it in a systems kind of way then, but it certainly came naturally to me later.

Pihkala: Hmm. Yeah and it also links with this theme that Thomas spoke about eco-friends who are friends who share environmental values or identity with you, or friends who share at least some parts of our journeys in relation to the modern human world. And there's often mentoring figures. We earlier, during an episode, talked with Louise Chawla who has done research on various things that affect people's relationship with the natural world. Usually when they are young, it's quite common to have at least some close person, perhaps a grandparent if not parents or an uncle or aunt or local Boy Scout leader or Girl Scout leader who becomes quite formational in leading us into a deeper engagement with what surrounds us. So in my mind that theme of mentoring and, broadly speaking, educating also links with this topic of eco-friendship. But what about you two? You said that you are eco-friends so how does that manifest in practice? What does it mean to be an eco-friend?

Doherty: Yeah, I can share a little bit about it. Like a lot of friends, we have slightly different stories about our pasts and how we met, just like siblings will have different memories. But I'm just thinking about Greg in the Grand Canyon. For listeners who haven't been to the Grand Canyon, it's very deep. I've met people that grew up near the Alps, for example, or near other mountains and they from a young age learn to climb up the mountains and perhaps help guide other people up the mountains. But in the Grand Canyon, it's easy to get to the bottom of the Grand Canyon. You essentially just keep walking and rolling down to the bottom. But getting out is like climbing a mountain. So, I think that what Greg is saying, carrying that pack out is like carrying someone's pack up the Matterhorn or something like that.

Hill: Well that same group that I went to the Grand Canyon with, we also climbed a lot of mountains. So that's one thing that, for instance, is the same between me living here in Portland, Oregon and Arizona. It’s a very different climate from Arizona, but the same mountains. Not the same mountain range, but the same structure of the mountains. And so I feel at home, even though it's raining all the time here. And it's not raining in Arizona, let me tell you.

Doherty: Yeah, that's the system's perspective. We can see similarities around the world in different ecosystems. But how Greg and I met or at least my recollection of it… this would be coming on 25 or 23 years ago, I think. We actually met at a Zen meditation retreat at a place called the Great Vow Zen center here in Western Oregon which is a traditional American Zen monastery. And we actually met at a unique event. It was a deep ecology retreat at the Zen Center. And one of the speakers there was Michael Soulé, who was a conservation biologist, who’s one of the founders of conservation biology. It was this fruitful mashup of conservation and environmental consciousness and Buddhism, in this case, Zen Buddhism. And I think, Greg, that is one of the strong strands in your life that, if not introduced you to systems thinking, at least it kind of exemplifies systems thinking.

Hill: Indeed, yes. Zen Buddhism is something that I first encountered when I was 16. And I was a fan of the Beat Generation. And I somehow managed to get permission from my mother to drive all the way from Tucson to San Francisco. I didn't drive, but I had a friend who could drive and had a car. We actually drove nonstop from Tucson, Arizona to San Francisco. Now, not just any place in San Francisco, but to the City Lights Bookstore. Do either of you know the City Lights Bookstore?

Doherty: I do, yeah.

Hill: It was kind of a home base for the Beat Generation and all those books. So, I went there. One of the people I read when I was reading about the Beat Generation was this guy, Gary Snyder, who was a poet. I really admired his poetry and he was also a Zen guy. And so, through reading his work when I was young, I learned about the San Francisco Zen Center when it was just starting up. So, I broke off from my little group of three people when we were visiting there and walked across downtown to the San Francisco Zen Center. I poked my head in, somebody greeted me, and I felt welcomed. For instance, I'm going back for a month-long retreat in three months. So, I've been with the San Francisco Zen Center for a long time. My favorite part of the San Francisco Zen Center is their farm, which is called Green Gulch Farm. And it's also a retreat center. It's one of those beautiful places that combines, I'm going to say it again, social and ecological engagement and how they're connected with each other. So that's the system between social and ecological.

Pihkala: Yeah, that's lovely and interesting to hear. I have a background in studying religion and environment, and Buddhism also comes from there. There's a book which might also interest some listeners by Roderick Nash, an environmental historian, called Rights of Nature: A History of Environmental Ethics which is quite interesting and also devotes several pages on Gary Snyder and the strong interest on Zen Buddhism in North America among environmentally minded people, but it's also related to present day activities. One of my dissertation students, who is also a young colleague, is a practicing Buddhist in Finland, but he's been doing extended interviews of Western engaged Buddhists in climate action. So that paper came out about a month ago and it's quite interesting to hear what the Buddhists have been able to give to the climate movement. There's some special features… so, that’s just some of my thoughts reflecting on what you said and I also see the connection between Buddhism and the systems approach between the social and ecological.

Doherty: Yeah, and I would just like to add, one of our favorite themes here is environmental identity and our sense of self in relation to nature and the natural world. And I often say that art and literature is part of our environmental identity. And you know, Greg's example is great. I know this is not unique to Greg or to Panu or to me. Many people are obviously influenced by Buddhism around the world, but also the Beat Generation and the poets and writers there and that lifestyle or that vision that they evoked in the US in the 1950s and 60s. And we don't necessarily think of it as an environmental identity at the time when we're younger. We’re just finding the world and absorbing everything. But, it does become part of our environmental ethos and leads us to value things and then take action, right? So, I think it's a fair statement, Greg, to say you've been an activist at times in your life, based on your social ecological values.

Hill: Oh yeah, and I have to share one thing that combines these. So, 60th anniversaries are a big deal in Japan. It's a time when you become an elder, and in Japan, that's a good thing. On the 60th anniversary of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, my Zen community gathered together and went to Japan with the whole group for two weeks. I went for five weeks. So, I traveled on my own for quite a while. We had all sorts of engagements with anti-nuclear weapons work, the social engagement around Buddhism and particular Buddhist teachers, Dogen, I think of in particular. Then, traveling around Japan, on my own, was an incredible lesson in social engagement with others when we don't share a language. This may seem like a silly example, but I was traveling around on the trains and I went all the way south. There are trains everywhere and they really run on time. And the tickets tell you how to get to the next station in Japanese. I couldn't read Japanese at all. I could speak a little bit, but I couldn't read it at all. So, I would just get off the train, I would hold up my ticket in front of me and inevitably, a Japanese person would see my ticket, grab me by the hand, and walk me to the place I had to go. Even if it was just two minutes away. I was doing all this traveling like climbing mountains and that kind of kindness was really connecting all those things about socialization and how they're connected to the environment. It was very powerful to me. And I brought it back to Portland, Oregon. I had a meeting with a minister, not a minister that we have in the United States, but a minister of peace that’s a cabinet level position in Japan. A friend of mine who is bilingual, in Japanese and English, and incredibly tall, he’s 6' 11, arranged the meeting. He went to that minister with me and I made my case while he translated. At the end, this minister revealed that he had really good English and he said to me, “we have to do this.” And so, I brought all these artifacts from the bombings to Oregon to exhibit and I brought four Japanese men to herd around. That was really fun. The exhibit was on for two months. So, the Zen thing is also all mixed in with social and environmental stuff for me. It's a trifecta.

Doherty: Yeah, so you can see why I like Greg. He's just no lack of interesting stories and he really is a world citizen and it's inspiring. Where should we go in our conversation? Greg, in terms of our environmental identity and our eco-timeline, it continues our whole life and we're always extending that timeline and what is the Japanese name for the 60th birthday? If there's any Japanese listeners out there, you can remind us of the special name for that and you wear a special hat for your 60th birthday.

Hill: Oh and you came to my 60th birthday party.

Doherty: Yeah, I did. Greg had a great gathering… talk about eco-friends. That was an incredible gathering of eco-friends.

Hill: Everyone around that table were eco-friends.

Doherty: It’s one of those things that when I have an old friend and they meet another of my old friends, it's often fairly quick that everyone connects. So, we don't even realize that we have a larger friend connection than we know because all of our eco-friends have eco-friends. And we're often all on the same page. At your party, you played a game and had truth or dare stories about your past, which I remember was fun which we won't go into now. But going forward, what are some ways that you're extending your timeline? I know that's a huge question, obviously, but what comes up for you? Maybe the First Nations work that you're doing in Canada or the salmon work?

Hill: Well, I've very recently been liberated. A lot of people call it retirement. For me, I don't have to grade papers anymore. And I am completely in charge of my daily routine, which took me a while to understand. I didn't retire very long ago, just a year ago, so I'm still learning how to do things, but I'm using this freedom I have now to do a lot of things that I wasn't able to do when I was pinned down by other people's schedules. For instance, one thing is I’m helping with a lot of partners to arrange, you mentioned the work I did with indigenous people in Canada. The main person there was this man named Satsan. And he, for instance, changed the constitution of the country through a legal process that took many years. That was all before I met him. It’s one thing to have the right to self-determination, which he got the legal part down where First Nations had the inherent right to self-governance. Before that, they weren’t even close to any right like that, so he won that right. But exerting that right is another thing. And that's where I worked with him and the system stuff came in really well. Because Satsan, when he was sent to residential school and taken away from his family, somehow got a book that was about systems thinking, with all the diagrams. So, he and I really connected on that level. We became really close partners and dear friends throughout many years. And now I'm trying to arrange a trip for him to the United States. Now the rule with him, since he's kind of famous now, is that he only does things that have national visibility, that make the news across Canada. I'm trying to do one that's based in the United States that still has that impact across Canada so I'm working on that. That's just one of the things I'm working on these days.

Doherty: Wow, that's great. So, you're really leveraging a lot now to make change that's going to affect history and people for generations to come.

Hill: Satsan’s the history maker. I'm the assistant to the history maker.

Doherty: Panu, what's coming up for you as you're listening and observing this eco-friend banter that we're having?

Pihkala: Well, it's fascinating how many things, Greg, you have been in touch with. I hear a strong commitment to justice issues. Some people nowadays use framing like climate justice or injustice and of course, environmental justice and I think that's an integral part of having a socio-ecological view on things or systems. Environmental organizations and institutions are luckily picking that up if they haven't done it before and for example, in Finland, the climate change expert panel, which is a national thing, did work many years ago on social acceptability and justice dimensions of climate issues so that's one part of trying to advance things on a practical level.

Doherty: What's the most exciting part of this for you Greg as you have this freedom moving on from your teaching? We won't get into that, but you of course influenced a lot of students and people over the years. What's the equivalent of climbing the mountain or some challenge or task that you look forward to doing coming up?

Hill: I've had a really long and deep connection to Indonesia and to Southeast Asia, in general. A lot of it has been through a dear friend of mine who now lives in Portland. His name's Tim O'Brien. We have been back and forth between the United States and Indonesia for a long time. Part of that is connected to the environment, social stuff, and ethics. One outcome of that, which has only fairly recently found its full realization, is a forest-based carbon offset project. I've been told it’s the largest forest-based carbon offset project in the world. It's in Kalimantan and it's the work of two Indonesians, Rezal Kusumaatmadja and Dharsono Hartono. But Tim and I were definitely part of the team and that has only recently seen its full realization as a carbon offset project with all of the numbers. It was protecting a peat forest, which is probably the densest carbon offset per acre in the world. There was a peat forest that was in danger of being destroyed for its wood value and we managed to protect that. It’s really happening and I was excited about it. One of the people who was involved with that was in Portland recently and we had a good conversation about it and he's following up in Indonesia with solar stuff in Java. My whole time there was really exciting and I want to go back and Tim and I have, of course, plans to go back.

Doherty: Yeah, this is great, this web of friendship. I think it's a good place to wrap up our conversation today. Of course, we could go on and on, but it's that web and you keep following the web and it leads to more and more things and realizing that saving a forest these days isn't just about the forest, it's about the entire global ecosystem. That's one of the new insights of climate consciousness. It's not just the beauty of a particular place, although that's obviously important too. The integrity of an individual place has ramifications for the whole global system, and it comes back to the human and ecological systems as you were saying, Greg, we have to work together and then we have to have that big picture thought. This has been great. I really have been looking forward to having you on the podcast, Greg. It's a nice record of our relationship and sharing it with Panu and maybe Panu, we can have you bring an eco-friend next year as well. That would be nice. So, let's wrap it up. Listeners, I hope you got something out of this and your homework if you like is to think about and connect with your eco-friends and recognize that you are eco-friends and just name that because I think people will appreciate that. Otherwise, listeners, take care. And Greg and Panu, I'll let you have the last word.

Hill: I'm down with this eco-friends. Can we make it social eco-friends?

Doherty: Sure, I'll see you around the campfire soon. And Panu, where are you headed today?

Pihkala: Yeah, it's been a pleasure getting to know a bit about you, Greg. It's just a glimpse through the clouds to a large terrain. There's evidently lots of feeling grateful for that in the dark Finnish evening. It's the darkest time of the year, but this is soon about to change, so there's going to be more light.

Doherty: Yes. Anyway, listeners and everyone, find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com and I appreciate our listeners all around the world and everyone be well.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

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image credit | **Mario Purisic**

Season 4, Episode 15: Climate Arts and Social Dreaming with Kamila Kuc and Julian Manley

Thomas and Panu connected with Julian Manley and Kamila Kuc who joined in from Scotland and London to explore the intersections of climate change, emotions and the arts. Kamila and Julian described their recent collaboration using the practice of social dreaming, a group process to discuss and find larger meaning, emotional reality, and direction from personal dreams. Hosting social dreaming gatherings is a powerful way to foster community dialogue about eco and climate emotions and support artistic practices such as poetry and film making. They had a rich dialogue about art, action, and ways to envision nature as an active participant in our collective dreams.

Links

• Kamila Kuc

• Films

• Julian Manley

• Manley 2018 Social Dreaming, Associative Thinking and Intensities of Affect

• Social Dreaming Workshop: Cadence 2025 – Reimagining Climate Futures: Creative Practices for Social Change

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness (CC&H), an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Well hello, I’m Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, this is our podcast. It’s a show for people around the world who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and

other environmental issues. We talk about a lot of topics on this podcast. Our mission is to probe what it means to be happy in the modern world. We talk about our environmental values, beliefs, feelings, identity. And also, interesting endeavors and people who are working in different places on different interesting projects. We’re really glad and happy to have two very special and interesting guests today. Julian Manley is someone that we know who’s associated with this idea of social dreaming, which we’ll talk about. And he’s coming in from Scotland. And Kamila Kuc is a very interesting filmmaker who I know through various channels and who’s also now moving into studying and doing work around climate change, eco-therapy, climate therapy. So, we have both of these folks together, and there’s a number of connections with Julian and Kamila’s work to guests that we’ve had on this podcast and writing and work that Panu’s been doing. So, it’s a neat sort of personal and professional connection today. Panu, do you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Warm welcome also on my behalf. I’m very pleased to have you on our podcast.

We usually ask people something about their journeys towards engagement with climate change matters, whether that is via psychology or arts or social dreaming or many possibilities. But perhaps starting with Julian, would you like to tell us something about your journey? How did you become engaged with these topics?

Julian Manley: I was born in England and brought up in France, my mother is French, and then I lived for a while in Spain and now I’m back in Scotland and I think that moving around from place to place opens up your mind to different cultures and different environments. I studied English at university and that brought me into contact with the Romantic poets and through the Romantic poets, I began to have a specific and special interest in the connection between the human and the natural world. And since then, I’ve just developed those thoughts and ideas. I’ve become a director of the Climate Psychology Alliance and been very interested in understanding how psychology and psychoanalytical ideas can bring you closer to a relationship with nature. And, to an understanding of how society and relationships between people can be translated into relationships between people and nature and nature and people. So that’s the kind of journey I’ve been on until now.

Pihkala: Yeah, well thanks Julian for sharing that and greetings from the northern corner of Europe. I hear that you’ve been around many parts of Europe and I’ve been reading your work via books which have come through Climate Psychology Alliance and once had the privilege of meeting some Scottish Climate Psychology Alliance folks when visiting there. So, we have some connections, but how about you, Kamila? What would you like to share about your journey at this point?

Kamila Kuc: Yeah, thank you for having us. It’s such a great avenue to be having those conversations. I grew up in a small town in Poland, but I spent a lot of my childhood at my grandparent’s farm. My grandparent’s house was right at the edge of the forest, which is now half of its size, unfortunately. Then at the age of 19, I traveled between New York and Paris, and ended up in London. And I nowadays spend half of my time in London trying to get out to go surfing, mainly to Cornwall. I’ve always been interested in the topic of climate change, but I come to the topic from a perspective of an artist, a person that has worked a lot with communities. So typically, my work would take me to smaller places in the world. For example, my last previous film was made in the war-torn zone in Abkhazia, a place between Russian Federation and Georgia, where I worked with local communities about issues that they’re facing largely around war memories. Then, I worked with women at a care home in Morocco, with issues of abuse and poverty. But I’ve really been thinking recently about different methods of working with communities but on a slightly larger scale. So, I was thinking about what the biggest forces in the world right now that are affecting everybody. And of course, you know, climate change is the obvious one. That sort of hyper-object of climate change. I spent some time, about a year, studying it, and my connection with Thomas, learning about Panu’s work and connection with Julian through social dreaming conversations is how I arrived here and formed this perspective.

Doherty: Yeah, that’s really great. Every time we have guests, it’s always interesting to hear their backgrounds. And that’s why I love this idea of environmental identity or just this general open question of how is it that you come to this topic, because it just opens up the door to neat facets of people’s lives. Such as, where they grew up, their travels, and being multicultural or bicultural and the role of the landscape that forms us. That’s under the surface for everyone, but we just don’t think about it. You know, and another thing that’s under the surface is dreaming and our dreams. We know technically that all humans dream every night in some form through our sleep cycles and at different times and places, dreams arise to be part of culture or not. And so, I thought we’d talk about some of your individual projects and then get into these collaborations that are happening. But Julian, I know that you’ve done a lot of different kinds of work with people and you’re one of the leaders in this idea of social dreaming, which is a public outreach modality to get people to work together and think and feel differently about issues and be creative. I thought you could talk just a little bit in general terms about it so we could see how this fits into a lot of the themes that we’re talking about on the podcast.

Manley: Yeah, sure. The thing about social dreaming is that it’s asking people to get together in a group and share their nighttime dreams. So, we’re talking about actual dreams that people have. We’re not talking about dreams or ambitions about the future. And the innovation

in social dreaming is that you’re actually talking to people about dreams, but those dreams don’t belong to you as an individual when you’re talking about them in a group. Those dreams belong to the group as a whole. In other words, they belong to the social sphere. And that’s why we talk about the social unconscious or the associative unconscious when we talk about social dreaming. And it’s important to understand that dreaming is actually just thinking. It’s thinking when you’re asleep. So, one of things I’ve been interested in doing with social dreaming is to understand with other people that there’s nothing strange or unusual about sharing your dreams. Indigenous populations have been doing this for centuries, if not thousands of years. That’s because dreaming is just thinking while you’re asleep. And while you’re asleep, you can think about things in a different way. So, by sharing your dreams, you can share your thoughts about the world that you live in, but you can do it in a different

way to when you’re sharing something in a conscious way of thinking. And when we’re conscious, we try to rationalize things and we miss out on the important emotional aspects of how we relate to people and how we relate to the environment. And I think that’s really essential in lots of complex situations in life. But particularly, since we’re focusing a little bit on the climate emergency and our relationship with nature, it’s really anxiety provoking to imagine what’s happening with the end of the planet, more or less. The apocalypse coming up, the climate emergency.

That anxiety prevents us from taking action and this is what we can see in the world today. Despite the rational knowledge that climate change is caused by human intervention and by the burning of fossil fuels, we seem to find it very, very difficult to move forward. And that’s because we’re not connecting the emotional reality of what that means to the decisions we have to take. The work that we’ve been doing with social dreaming related to climate psychology has demonstrated that through thinking with social dreaming you can come to a clearer, better, more holistic, more complete understanding of the climate emergency. And if you can reach a more complete understanding of the climate emergency, then in theory, you can actually take decisions that make a difference.

Doherty: Yeah, this is beautiful. I have some thoughts that I want to share, but Panu, how is this dovetailing with your understanding of climate emotions in your work and what you see happening in Finland and other places?

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks Julian for introducing us to that. I work a lot with climate emotions and facilitate workshops, but not dream discussions. I know that there’s several psychotherapists in the climate psychology sphere who do that, and I’ve collaborated with some of them, like Sally Gillespie from Australia, who comes more from a Jungian perspective and dreams are very important in her work. She’s been discussing those with workshop members. The way in which some deep emotions and thoughts of ours appear in dreams is very fascinating and years ago there was this book by Michael Otis Hill called Dreaming the End of the World which was fascinating and quite heavy to read because it’s so evocative and the images can be quite powerful. I find this topic very fascinating, but how does that resonate with your work, Kamila? What’s the connection points?

Kuc: Yeah, thank you. I was just thinking about how Julian and I met at some conference outside of London some years ago. And then during COVID, Julian and I held a series of social dreaming matrices with Duke University. Do you remember, Julian? We spent long days and evenings, I think once a week, doing matrices and that was really amazing because in my artistic practice, I’ve always been interested in working with dreams. But this has opened a completely different avenue because, Julian, you used that phrase beautifully with emotional reality and how, when you let that dream go, once it’s in a matrix, it kind of belongs to everybody and it’s a much more, in some ways, neutral way of discussing difficult emotions and difficult ideas. So, for me, the social dreaming has become kind of a, I don’t want to say a tool because I don’t know that that’s the right word, but it’s become a sort of vehicle for me to connect with people and all different communities. So, one of the most important components of the project that we’re currently working on, which all of you are part of, is social dreaming matrices, which hopefully Julian will be able to deliver many of them.

But the idea, as Julian mentioned, is how you connect people and more importantly, how you connect people who might have very disparate ideas about the same topic. But I think that emotional reality is really important because particularly with the climate crisis, we know the facts, we know the numbers, but there is also that idea of yours, Thomas, of climate hostages. Like what Julian said, that anxiety that we have is so paralyzing that we end up with this kind of wide-mouthed apocalypse narratives and meanwhile nobody is doing anything. So, I think my response to that through my artistic practice is to create collaborations, artistic alliances, but also create groups of people where we can think through those ideas through creative practices.

Doherty: Yeah, it’s fascinating. So, listeners, you can think about this. The meta message with a lot of our conversations is that solutions, ideas, and creativity are happening in real time with real people that are meeting each other at conferences and working together. Panu and I work together on this podcast and Kamila and Julian are working on things. A lot of its about active collaboration. The idea of a social dreaming group is called a matrix or matrice and a matrix is sort of a mold or an environment where things grow out of. So, this is the kind of matrice of all our work. I’m talking about listeners and everyone. We’re all working together in some form with people. One equalizing factor for humans, for better and worse, is that we all have dreams, in terms of visions and goals, but we also all have dreams. All humans dream, no matter what your political party is. I think a lot of people are closet dream lovers and don’t necessarily know how to talk about it.

I remember when I worked with young people doing outdoor wilderness therapy years ago, one of my most favorite parts of these three-week long expeditions in the forest or in the desert is that every morning we would have a dream circle with the young people. And I was, as a therapist, using it very strategically to check in on the kids and see how they were doing. But you learn so much from people when they talk about their dreams, because of course we were thinking differently, and certain parts of our brain are on and certain parts of our brain are off. It was a little bit of social dreaming, in another form, because we would share our dreams together. But it was therapy so we were always focused on interpreting and putting it inside the person, as traditional Freudian dream interpretation would be. But this is different, right? With social dreaming, we are using our dreams to connect in real time. So, it’s not about some sort of mystical collected unconscious that exists in another reality. It’s literally our collective unconscious that’s manifesting right here in the day. Right Julian? That’s part of it?

Manley: Yeah, that’s right. And I think the advantage of social dreaming is that it actually is not therapy. It’s very important to understand that it isn’t therapy. We’re thinking together with the thoughts that we had in our nighttime thinking. And as soon as we understand that, sharing your dreams doesn’t become something unusual, it becomes something natural. And if you ever do social dreaming, you’d be quite surprised how natural it feels. Maybe the first five minutes feel a bit odd and a bit strange because you come in with your prejudices about dreams. You kind of think, my dream is my intimate private thing so I’m not going to share it with others. But actually, five minutes into a social dreaming matrix, people just flow with their dreams. And it just demonstrates how natural the entire process is.

But I also want to say something else, Thomas. And that is that it’s not just about actual dreams, it’s about dream thinking. In other words, there might be some people in a matrix who don’t often dream or who never dream. That doesn’t mean they’re excluded from sharing the dream time with people, because we’re talking about a state of reverie, a dream state. This is a little bit like daydreaming, so people can get involved in the images from other people’s dreams and they can associate to those dreams with images that float into their minds even if they don’t actually have dreams themselves. And so, nobody’s left out. It’s a very inclusive, democratic space where everybody, no matter how much or how little they dream, can become involved.

So, that’s a really important aspect of dreams and I say that because I myself don’t dream very much as a matter of fact. People kind of expect that I’m a dreamer and I dream ten times a night. It’s actually not the case. I dream very little, but I never feel excluded, and I’ve never met anyone who said to me that’s terrible or that’s not for me because I just don’t dream and therefore, I wasn’t involved. That’s not the case at all because we can all daydream. And what is that? What is daydreaming? It’s creativity and that’s where the link comes into art and filmmaking. It’s creativity in the imagination producing visual images and that’s not so far removed from filmmaking.

Kuc: Yeah Julian, do remember one of the matrices? Maybe you can talk a little bit about what happens post matrix. That sort of meaning making session. Do remember one of the matrices during COVID when one of the recurring symbols in everybody’s dream was an octopus? Do remember that? Because that for me was one of the most powerful matrices. Could you say a little bit more about that meaning making session that happens after the matrix?

Manley: Yeah, sure. Well, there’s always one image that seems to capture people’s imagination and Kamila is referring to this particular image of the octopus that came up in a series of social dream matrices. And the point about that kind of image is that within the image, there’s all sorts of potential interpretations. And each person in the matrix can have their own interpretation of what that particular image might mean. So, there’s no conflict in the interpretation of the image because all interpretations are held within the single image. Within the image of the octopus, you can have all sorts of ideas like talking about the tentacles, the eight possibilities, the intelligence of the octopus, which tells us something about our relationship with the non-human, and so on and so forth. However, even though Kamila’s put me on the spot and asked me to interpret the image of the octopus,

I also want to say that the experience of social dreaming is an embodied experience. In other words, when you’re in the matrix, you feel the affective power of the dreams and what’s happening in the matrix. It’s actually much more difficult to describe it when you’re out of the embodied experience. Nevertheless, as part of social dreaming, you have a social dreaming matrix for say about 60 minutes. And after that, you have a meaning making session because it’s important to understand that during the actual social dreaming matrix itself, we don’t interpret dreams. We don’t judge people for their dreams. There’s no sense of any conscious, explicit meaning making in the matrix itself, because all the images are allowed to float and people make their own connections in their own minds as they wish. But after the matrix, there’s a post-matrix discussion where we get out of the dream mode, and we get more into the standard mode of thinking. And we do that to give people a chance to digest and process the different dreams and feelings in the matrix. I say dreams and feelings because in the images, what you have are often deep emotions, so you need time after the matrix to process those emotions. That’s kind of ethically correct as well as important to help people understand how to make some kind of sense of what’s been going on in the matrix previously. So, the post-Matrix discussion may last about 30 minutes or 45 minutes.

Doherty: Yeah, this is really great. It’s a state of mind so we’re working with and cultivating a state of mind, a state of being. I think that’s a mini rite of passage where you go into this more reverie state. Kamila, you’re an artist and you’re envisioning doing a fairly ambitious program that’s integrating Panu’s work on environmental emotion and my work on environmental identity. It’s the same with environmental identity. After a few minutes of talking about it, you can’t stop people from talking about it because everyone has an environmental identity, and they like to talk about it. Just like I think they like to talk about their dreams. And you’re a filmmaker. You’ve done interesting documentary style, artistic work and activism. What’s your vision? Now this is your dream, I guess more in the real world. But what’s your vision for some of this project for other listeners to get inspired by.

Kuc: Yeah, thank you. I guess the project you’re referring to is a project I’ve been discussing with both you and Julian for quite some time now. It’s tentatively called Hyperobjects and Climate Hostages. This is a working title as we are applying for funds, but really the idea is to engage a group of diverse participants in four different locations in the world in conversations about climate crisis and try and see what conversations we can have through artistic practices within the topic of climate crisis. So currently the project is based in Seattle, Detroit, London, and Coventry. I know there have been some noises that Poland is quite interested. I’m hoping we might go to Finland at some point potentially. There are definitely opportunities there, but I guess the idea is that we’ll engage in a series of ecological identity map workshops, which is potentially where you and Panu can come in as well as conversations obviously about climate crisis, but also creative arts workshops. So, filmmaking, poetry, performance art, and social dreaming matrices.

And out of that will come a feature film that’s multi-authored and has diverse perspective in it. In different parts of the world, we’re working with different people. So, in London, I’m hoping to collaborate with elderly and neurodiverse populations. In Detroit, we’re currently working with Yemeni and African American populations. And in Seattle, indigenous populations. So, we’re really trying to debunk a lot of those white man saviorism and apocalyptic narratives about a climate crisis and see what we can do and what we can learn about the climate crisis through creative practices.

Thomas, you mentioned my recent training. I’m currently training at Seattle University as a social justice and multicultural counselor. I’m interested in all the social justice issues that do come up for a lot of different communities. So, I guess, there’s a couple of things that I just want to finish with that needless to say, we don’t see climate crisis as just an environmental issue. It’s a social justice issue. And it is also, as I see it, a crisis of representation. What is the image of climate crisis? How do we represent it? Here’s me as an artist interested in innovating with methods of working with different communities and different participants. How do we need to adapt? So, we have project leads in every location and are in dialogue with people from the community, so we don’t impose any frameworks on any community. So, everything is a dialogue and negotiation to really try and create a space for all those different perspectives to come out and social dreaming is obviously crucial part of it.

Doherty: It’s amazing. Let me ask you a very quick question. So, this seems to be taking your work to another scale or another level. So, listeners out there who are inspired but feel like they would never have the guts to take on something like this. What helps you to do it? What have you learned practically that you think helps you to take on something like this? I know it’s a big question, but does anything come to your mind?

Kuc: No, thank you for that question because I was trying to figure out how to squeeze everything in. But I think, like I said, for me, the answer to everything is really group work and its collaborations. And if I may, I would like to give a shout-out to few people and organizations that have been so responsive to the project from the very beginning. Obviously, all of you are here, which I’m very grateful for you being part of the project. But in Seattle, we’re working with Cadence Video Poetry Festival, Rana San, Chelsea Werner-Jatzke, and Seattle University, who is also one of the funders of the project. These are people originally who I’ve gotten in touch with, and they came on board quickly. In Detroit, I want to give a shout-out an amazing organization, Augusta Morrison at Sidewalk, Bulk Space, Jessica Ali, but also Mothlight Artist Collective, who will be delivering a lot of 60-millimeter workshops. Also, Julia Yezbick and Shanna Maurizi. In London, Laura Fischer and Traumascapes, an organization that is funded by Laura, who is a counselor, but they work primarily in the context of trauma, but are just starting to work with climate change related trauma. So really, it’s the openness and kindness of people because we have psychologists on board, we have artists, we have activists. The poet CA Conrad has just come on board. We also have musicians coming.

At the moment, I think I have about 20 partners and something like 30 different people. So yeah, it is definitely a beast to manage, I couldn’t have done it without the openness of the collaborators. So far from everybody I approached, I haven’t had a single person who said no. There were a couple of maybes and couple of tentative yeses that we are waiting on, but nobody said no, which is to me amazing.

Manley: And Kamila...

Kuc: Yeah, sorry, can I just mention one more thing? I want to also give a shout-out to two more people. Katherin Hervey and Katie Sedgwick, two LA based producers who have just started On the Border, a production company in LA. They are championing a lot of work that’s done in the field of restorative justice. So, Katherin Hervey did a lot of work with prisons in America. We just have such an amazing team of people. I think this can go in so many different interesting directions. Yeah, sorry Julian.

Manley: Yeah, you forgot that one of the actors is nature and the environment. And this is one of the important things that I’ve been learning in my work with social dreaming and indigenous knowledge and indigenous populations. The idea that nature can be given personhood. Nature can be a person and we can have a relationship with nature which is not a done to but done with relationship. I think this is one of the ways that dreams work to enable us to create something possible out of what apparently in our cognitive minds is impossible. So, you know, I’ve been very interested, for example, in the idea in New Zealand that the Whanganui River could have legal, personhood status. And that comes directly from the indigenous thinking of the Māori’s who say, “I am the river and the river is me.” And they don’t mean that as a bit of poetry. They mean that literally. And the only way we can reach that kind of literal truth is through our emotional and dream engagement with nature. So, nature becomes an actor. I really hope that we can introduce nature as an actor in the work as well.

Kuc: Completely, I think that’s a really, really great point. I think that’s why I think collaborating with different people in these diverse communities will bring us so many different points of view. So yeah, I think just being open to that and seeing what manifests. Amazing, thank you for that, Julian.

Doherty: Yeah, this is fascinating and we’re going to put some links in our show notes to some of these projects if you want to learn more or get involved. Yeah, it’s real time. All this stuff is developing in real time, in real places, in real contexts. Panu, we have to wrap up for our conversation today, but I can’t imagine that this doesn’t resonate with many things you’re seeing in your work. Do you have any thoughts to tie this up around climate emotions, coping and how this is landing for you?

Pihkala: Yeah, it’s been fascinating to listen to all that you have been sharing. For contemporary people, the big challenge is to engage with all the complexities and difficulties of the state of the world. And sometimes, creative methods can be highly helpful in that. Listening to what is under the surface, which is a category also for dreams. That’s why I think that the work that you are doing is highly important and I hope that people, including you dear listeners, find ways for that creative engagement, hopefully together with trusted others.

Doherty: Yeah. Well, thank you, Kamila, Julian, and Panu. We’re having this real-time international conversation from the US, Finland, the UK, Scotland, and London. Listeners out there, we’re waiting for our end of the year report, but I know in the past we’ve had listeners from at least 50 countries. This small podcast goes out around the world, so it’s our own little dreaming as well. So, listeners, be well, and Panu and Kamila and Julian, you all have a good evening. Take care.

Kuc: Thank you so much.

Manley: Thank you.

Pihkala: Take care.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

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  image credit | **Harry Pappas**

Season 4, Episode 14: On Connectedness to Nature and Community Resilience with Cindy Frantz

Thomas and Panu spoke with noted social and environmental psychology researcher Cindy Franz from Oberlin College. First, they revisited Cindy’s foundational research on people’s connectedness to nature. Then they discussed her new work on how communities adapt to climate change. Cindy noted that “adaptation begins in resilient communities” and saw her work at the local level as hopeful – “real people, attacking real problems in real communities.” She explained how she and her colleagues study the potential for feedback technology with the Oberlin Environmental Dashboard to encourage conservation behavior, connect people back to the natural world, and promote systems thinking. The message to communities was “we can deal with this, together” and we “don’t have to agree on climate science to work on weather changes.” She believed a cross-partisan approach could motivate action without triggering despair. Join us for a positive episode!

Links

• Cindy Franz
• Past research in collaboration with Steve Mayer suggests that both individuals and the environment benefit when people feel connected to the natural world

• Franz, Bushkin & O’Keefe (2024). Evaluating the usefulness of Protection Motivation Theory for predicting climate change mitigation behavioral intentions among a US sample of climate change deniers and acknowledgers

• Oberlin Environmental Dashboard

• David Orr
• Past CCH episodes:
• Emotions and Climate Adaptation with Susi Moser
• Varieties of Hope with Guest Elin Kelsey

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image credit |**Joanne Francis**

Season 4, Episode 13: Coping When Disaster Finds Your Home with Gale Sinatra and Renee Lertzman

Thomas and Panu met with USC climate researcher Gale Sinatra and climate psychologist Renee Lertzman and spoke about how to cope and help with recent Los Angeles wild fires—at the disaster site and from a distance. The need was made real in the context of Gale’s sudden loss of her home to the recent Eaton fire and her unfolding experience as a climate refugee.

• Gale described in clear terms how climate change is not just an individual disaster but also a community disaster. Experiencing a disaster can exceed our capacity to process in different times and different ways. Understanding what to say and do for victims is crucial for community support.
• Renee observed how the global nature of climate grief affects everyone, not just those directly impacted, and that denialism can manifest in various ways, complicating the response to disasters and people’s ability to orient and take action.
• Panu noted the challenge of “facing difficult truths” regarding climate breakdown, and dealing with ambivalent feelings disasters arouse in us (such as competing urges to get more information and to avoid troubling feelings, and, to provide help, while feeling inadequate to do so).
• Thomas described the process of “emotional-orienting” (calibrating your feeling response to the disaster, appreciating the location and needs of the victims and survivors, and being aware of how similar experiences you may have had can be stirred up by the disaster). He also explained the differences between “emotional empathy” and “action empathy” when supporting those affected by disasters and traumatic events.

Gale Sinatra:

• Gale Sinatra Website
• The Golden Hour (interview with Gale): 'You may think you're safe, but you are not' - The climate education scholar whose house burned down
• Science Denial: Why it Happens and what to Do about it

Renee Lertzman:

• Renee Lertman Website
• Project Inside out
• Environmental Melancholia: Psychoanalytic dimensions of engagement
• Myth of Apathy essay

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image credit | **Caleb Cook**

Season 4, Episode 12: Coping with the LA Fires: Checking In With Local Therapists

Thomas and Panu present a special episode focusing on coping with the ongoing Los Angeles wildfires with on the ground reports from Southern California Ecotherapists Linda Buzzell and Maria Nazarian, and artist and climate activist Maksim Batuyev.

Sound Bites

• "Even as I feel hopeless, I see hope."
• "Dystopia is how I felt."
• "We will get through this as a community."
• "We need to honor our grief."
• "Can you heal in a world where disasters never end?"
• "We are all going to be first responders."
• "There’s a need for eco-resilience training."
• "Creative responses are essential in crises."
• "We need to come together after disasters."

Links

• Maria Nazarian, Beach Therapy

  • Maria is hosting a Climate Cafe on Tuesday, January 28, 2025

  • Linda Buzzell

  • Online ecopsychology course at Pacifica Graduate Institute in Santa Barbara

  • One805 Nonprofit Support for Disaster First responders Program

  • Maksim Butuyev

  • Self-Care + Climate Action, Thanks to Maksim Batuyev

Previous CCH Episodes

• Season 2, Episode 10: Composing During the Climate Crisis with Scott Ordway (Music composed after California’s CZU fire in 2020)
• Season 2, Episode 21: Tools for Couples Relationships in an Era of Climate Change
• Season 3, Episode 15: Radical Joy in the Midst of Environmental Grief with Trebbe Johnson
• Season 3, Episode 13: On the “Waking Up Syndrome” with Linda Buzzell

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image credit | **Tommaso Curre**

Season 4, Episode 11: On Legacy with Stylianos Syropoulos

Thomas and Panu Pihkala welcomed Stylianos Syropoulos, director of the Intergenerational Decisions and Effective Action (IDEA) Lab at Arizona State University to discuss his research on how people approach their legacy in relation to their environmental values. Stylianos explained that thinking about one’s legacy is an ancient and cross-cultural concern. Legacy can be understood in various ways like the biological legacy of having children and grandchildren, the material legacy of the world we leave behind, and values-related legacy of preserving what we care for. All of these are affected – and often threatened – by the events of climate change. Join us for a fascinating conversation, with take-aways that might help you be your own version of “future ancestor.”

Links:

• Stylianos Syropoulos
• Research examples:
• Stylianos Syropoulos et al. 2024 Intergenerational concern relates to constructive coping and emotional reactions to climate change via increased legacy concerns and environmental cognitive alternatives

• Andrea Mah, Stylianos Syropoulos & Ezra Markowitz (2024). Caring about one's legacy relates to constructive coping with climate change (pdf version)

• Society for Environmental, Population, and Conservation Psychology (Division 34 of the American Psychological Association)

• Earlier CCH Podcast episodes touching on legacy and having children:

  • Season 1, Episode 8: Climate Change, Children and a Better World with Guest Dr. Jade Sasser
  • Season 1, Episode 9: Finding Meaning in “Generation Dread” with Guest Britt Wray

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image credit | Serge Taeymans

Season 4, Episode 10: Wisdom for the New Year

Thomas and Panu had a mindful dialog about the end of the year to new year’s transition. Looking back on 2024, they noted the significance of Panu’s climate emotions wheel for people new to expressing feelings about climate and environmental issues, the challenges of being seen as an expert, and the importance of taking regular breaks to appreciate our efforts and accomplishments (or what Thomas calls a “behavioral sabbath”). Looking ahead, they shared the embodied activities they each do like cross country skiing as ways to recreate and restore themselves, and taking on new creative past times like training in Butoh theater (for Panu) and drumming (for Thomas). Ultimately, they emphasized the need for seeking joy and gratitude in the face of sorrows of the world, and the importance of giving oneself and others permission to feel happiness.

Links

• Episode Quotes:
• “Don't just glance at your life, stare at what you got.”
• “Retreat, hell. I’m just attacking in another direction.”
• “We must have the stubbornness to accept our gladness in the ruthless furnace of this world.”

• from A Brief for the Defense, by Jack Gilbert

• CCH Season 3, Episode 5: The Climate Emotions Wheel

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**Season 4, Episode 9: Climate Psychology Perspectives with Steffi Bednarek**

Panu and Thomas met with Brighton UK climate psychologist Steffi Bednarek, author of Climate, Psychology, and Change. They explored stages of Steffi’s journey into climate psychology, and the importance of Gestalt therapy in her understandings of how our selves entwine with nature and our perceptions of environmental issues and problems. They discussed how concepts like mindfulness and “creative indifference” offer additional perspectives on the seemingly hard distinction between hope and hopelessness. Steffi also shared her efforts to create a platform for experiential learning in climate psychology.

Links

• Steffi Bednarek
• Climate, Psychology, and Change: Reimagining Psychotherapy in an Era of Global Disruption and Climate Anxiety
• Center for Climate Psychology – offers a wide range of workshops, trainings and events that nurture collective wisdom in times of upheaval.
• British Gestalt Journal Volume 31, 2 (2022) - The Climate Change Special
• Podcast: Internal Family Systems Therapy and Climate Change with Steffi Bednarek

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In another of their intimate international dialogues, Thomas and Panu discussed the significance of connecting with nature for them during the changing seasons. Panu evolved the Finnish season of Marras, the gray time of the year as Autumn transitions to darker Winter, and when it’s normal for us all to be sensitive to feelings associated with grief. Thomas reflected on holidays of remembrance like Veterans Day (dating to WWI Armistice day), Remembrance Day for Species, and the Day of the Dead that help to mark our losses and celebrate our continuing bonds. Their conversation emphasized that "We create our own light when we need to" – and reminds you of the the value of your community and connections in your own place this season.

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image credit | **Benjamin Manley**

Season 4, Episode 7: On Parenting, Elections, and Climate with Anya Kamenetz

Thomas and Panu had a wide ranging exchange with journalist Anya Kamenetz (The Stolen Year, The Golden Hour) on the intersections of climate change, parenting, and mental health – in the context of the recent US elections. They discuss the importance of having open conversations with children about difficult topics that are geared to children and teens’ emotional and intellectual development. Each reflected on how they create a sense of hope, meaning, and resilience in their own families. Anya also shared some of her personal story growing up on the Gulf Coast of the US, and her journey as a writer, activist and parent.

Links

• Anya Kamenetz
• The Golden Hour: climate, children, mental health (Substack)
• Panu Pihkala, (2020). Eco-anxiety and Environmental Education. Sustainability, 12(23), 10149.
• Film referenced in the episode: Roberto Benigni (1997, Director) Life Is Beautiful

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Thomas and Panu discussed Thomas’ upcoming book Surviving Climate Anxiety: A Guide to Coping, Healing, and Thriving – a comprehensive resource for the general public that includes practical examples and stories drawn from people Thomas has worked with. Thomas shared insights about the book’s five part structure, which is designed to move readers from basic skills for coping with eco and climate stress, through developing environmental identity, healing from eco-anxiety and despair, finding happiness and flourishing using the arts and spirituality, and taking action on environmental problems. Panu reflected on the importance of addressing the dark and light aspects of climate feelings and having a survivor mission. Surviving Climate Anxiety will be published in 2025 by Little Brown Spark.

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image credit | **Ashley Batz**

Season 4, Episode 5: Climate and Life Journeys with Andrew Bryant

Thomas and Panu had a conversation with Seattle Washington therapist Andrew Bryant about the intersections of climate change and mental health therapy. Andrew reflected on his personal journey, the Climate and Mind website, and his experiences creating a community among therapists to explore climate issues in their lives and practices. Andrew described some of his methods of “professional and compassionate listening” that focus on creating community and holding space for feelings, especially for people who are isolated or not talking. The discussion also touched on the significance of outdoor therapy and how nature-based rite of passage experience can help individuals to navigate their paths in the face of climate distress.

Links

• Andrew Bryant
• Climate and Mind
• Brooke Jarvis (2023, Oct 21) Climate Change Is Keeping Therapists Up at Night. New York Times
• The Doris Lessing “space fiction” novel referenced in the conversation was Shikastra. Andrew also recommended Lessing’s proto-climate fiction novel The Making of the Representative for Planet 8.
• Our episode on cli-fi and literature with Matthew Schneider-Mayerson.

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image credit | **Alaric Duan**

Season 4, Episode 4: Ecological Grief in Religious and Spiritual Communities

Thomas and Panu discussed the intersection of spirituality and climate change. Specifically, Panu shared his work on the challenges faced by individuals who experience spiritual crises when their ecological fears or grief aren’t validated in their religious community, and who may feel isolated and unsupported. This may lead to feelings of combined ecological and spiritual grief. Faith leaders are in a key position regarding the validation of such feelings. Coping requires a holistic approach that recognizes the connections between spirituality and environmental values, finding support, and constructive engagement with climate emotions and with climate action in spiritual and religious communities.

Links

• Panu Pihkala, 2024
• Ecological grief, religious coping, and spiritual crises: Exploring eco-spiritual grief.

• Engaging with climate grief, guilt, and anger in religious communities

• Bron Taylor, 2009 Dark Green Religion: Nature Spirituality and the Planetary Future

• Patricia O'Connell Killen and Mark Silk 2004, Editors, Religion and Public Life in the Pacific Northwest: The None Zone
• Megan Von Bergen and Bethany Mannon, 2020 Talking Climate Faith: Katharine Hayhoe and Christian Rhetoric(s) of Climate Change.
• Yale Forum on Religion and Ecology: A good resource

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image credit | **Zach Wear**

Season 4, Episode 3: On Gen Z Climate Emotions with Filmmakers Tehya Jennett and Maxfield Biggs

In this episode of Climate Change and Happiness hosts Thomas and Panu engaged with filmmakers Tehya Jennett and Maxfield Biggs from Stranded Astronaut Productions. Tehya and Maxfield shared their personal journeys related to climate emotions. They reflected, together with Panu and Thomas, on the impact of food choices on climate awareness and ethics, and the need for intergenerational dialogue. The conversation also highlighted the importance of creativity as a coping mechanism. Most recently, Maxfield and Tehya were part of the team that produced the Healing Lahainadocumentary about the deadly Lahaina wildfire on Maui, premiering at the Hawai’i Int’l Film Festival. Tehya and Maxfield are also collaborating with Panu and Elin Kelsey to create new content on climate emotions. Join us in the quest of understanding how climate change is engaged with by young people.

Links

• Stranded Astronaut Productions

• Stranded Astronaut Productions on Instagram

• Tehya Jennett

• Maxfield Biggs
• Documentary Premiere, Healing Lahaina at the Hawai’i Int’l Film Festival

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image credit|**Hannah Smith**

Season 4, Episode 2: On the Psychological Roots of the Climate Crisis with Sally Weintrobe

Panu and Thomas had a warm chat with UK climate psychology theorist Sally Weintrobe, author of The Psychological Roots of the Climate Crisis and other books. Sally reflected on her childhood growing up in apartheid era South Africa and insights that led her to climate advocacy after years of providing psychoanalysis. She, Panu and Thomas spent time grappling with concepts like disavowal, group silencing, “active not caring” and “emotional privilege.” Listen in to a great episode for therapists, and also anyone interested in how these often unconscious processes manifest in our lives.

Sound Bites

"Indifference is a very, very active form of not caring."

"Privilege is to be spared all kinds of levels of suffering."

"Living our truth can be a dangerous place to be."

Links

Sally Weintrobe

• The Psychological Roots of the Climate Crisis

• Book Launch

• Engaging With Climate Change edited volume

• Recent keynote

Related CCH episodes

• Renee Lertzman
• Caroline Hickman
• Judith Anderson / Tree Staunton
• Britt Wray
• Jennifer Uchendu
• Thomas and Panu on “Holding Space”

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  image credit | Robson Hatsukami Morgan

Season 4, Episode 1: On A Healthy Return from Your Holidays

Thomas and Panu reflected on the often overlooked process of re-entry into life after a holiday or vacation. They considered Thomas’s idea of the “half-life” of restorative experiences. That is, how long the mental benfits of the experience enhance your normal or usual existence, such through increased perspective or calm, and how to extend these positive effects. They also recognized how technology and consumerism have infiltrated into seasonal breaks and holidays. And the shadow impacts of guilt regarding travel impacts on the environment, and emotional risks of returning from a holiday to face unsatisfying aspects of life. Mindfulness and intention are important for bringing the gifts and perspectives gained from a trip back into your everyday life, whether from a simple, local holiday or an ambitious journey. We hope this episode will be inspiring for listeners returning from seasonal holidays in the Northern and Southern hemispheres.

Takeaways

• Returning from a holiday or vacation can bring a fresh perspective and newness to one's life and work.
• The half-life of experiences is often short, but there are ways to extend the positive effects and insights gained from a break.
• Mindfulness and intention are key in bringing the gifts and perspectives from a trip back into everyday life.
• Consumerism and the environmental impact of travel are important considerations when planning trips.
• Embracing the emotional aspect of returning from a holiday, including feelings of joy and sadness, can enrich the experience.

Links

• American Psychological Association Vacation Time Recharges US Workers, but Positive Effects Vanish Within Days, New Survey Finds
• The 2018 Study
• On post vacation fade out, see Shanna B. Tiayon 2023 How to Avoid Post-Vacation Stress

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image credit | **Hector Argüello Canals**

Season 3, Episode 26: Listening to Young Researchers

Thomas and Panu spoke with three graduate student researchers from the The Development, Environment, & Wellness Lab at Columbia University Teachers College in New York: Paritosh Joshi, Rian Maxwell-Williams, and Danny DeBonis. All three are deeply engaged in environmental psychology and justice issues. They discussed their personal backgrounds, environmental identities, and the values and goals for their research. Join us for an inspiring conversation!

Sound Bites

• "Research should not only report findings objectively but also advocate for marginalized communities and contribute to tangible policy outcomes and interventions."
• "Having personal stories is essential in understanding the experiences of communities affected by climate change and environmental injustice."
• "Building resilience and studying the factors that lead individuals to become activists are crucial in addressing climate change and environmental issues."

Links

• The Development, Environment, & Wellness Lab Lab, Columbia University
• Publications and Team
• Principal Investigator: Susan Bodnar
• See CCH episode with Susan Bodnar: Season 2, Episode 16: Our Emotional Attachment to Nature with Susan Bodnar

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image credit | **Markus Spiske**

Season 3, Episode 25: Being a Therapist in a Time of Climate Breakdown with Judith Anderson & Tree Staunton

Thomas and Panu spoke with Judith Anderson and Tree Staunton, therapists and co-editors (along with Jenny O’Gorman and Caroline Hickman) of the recent collection Being a Therapist in a Time of Climate Breakdown. The foursome explored their experiences of mental health, research and healing work in the context of climate change and the psychological impacts of climate distress. Tree and Judith shared their personal journeys towards climate awareness. The episode included an overview of the structure and themes of the book, which includes chapters on climate science, mental health impacts, first person accounts, systemic understandings, and techniques to address climate distress (including a contribution about climate sorrow from Panu).

Takeaways

• Therapists play a crucial role in addressing climate distress and supporting individuals dealing with the psychological impact of climate change.
• Training in environmental awareness and systemic thinking is essential for therapists to effectively address climate distress in therapy.
• Climate distress is not limited to anxiety and can manifest as confusion, fear, depression, guilt, and despair.
• Addressing climate distress requires a nuanced approach that goes beyond simply encouraging action and considers the complex emotions and defense mechanisms involved.
• Creating spaces for open dialogue and support, such as climate cafes and social dreaming, can help individuals process their climate distress.

Links

• Judith Anderson, Tree Staunton, Jenny O’Gorman, and Caroline Hickman (Eds, 2024) Being a Therapist in a Time of Climate Breakdown
• Book Launch Recording 18th April 2024
• Climate Psychology Alliance UK

Transcript

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image credit | **Tyler Lagalo**

Season 3, Episode 24: For Teachers: An Existential Tool Kit

This episode is dedicated to teachers and educators of all kinds. Thomas and Panu discussed the new Existential Toolkit for Climate Justice Educators and the emotional, political, personal and pedagogical challenges faced by teachers in the context of climate change. The conversation delved into the history of the Toolkit project, the lingering impact of COVID-19 on education, and the unacknowledged and inequitable impacts of climate and weather disasters on students, teachers and school systems, worldwide. Panu and Thomas reflected on their own schooling in Finland and the US, their personal teaching experiences, and advice on how to remain creative and to cope with fatigue and burnout.

Sound Bites

• "Teachers are under a lot of stress to give accurate information to their students about the state of the world, which can be quite troubling."
• "The existential toolkit fills the gap in providing emotional tools for teachers and educators dealing with difficult topics like climate change."

Links

• Jennifer Atkinson and Sarah Jaquette Ray (2024, Eds.) The Existential Toolkit for Climate Justice Educators: How to Teach in a Burning World

  • See selected Resources from the tool kit
  • Elizabeth Haase and Kelsey Hudson (2024, Eds.) Climate Change and Youth Mental Health: Multidisciplinary Perspectives

See Previous Climate Change and Happiness Episodes

• Season 2, Episode 3: Coping on Campus with Sarah Jaquette Ray
• Season 1, Episode 16: Varieties of Hope with Guest Elin Kelsey
• Season 3, Episode 12: On Literature and Activism with Matthew Schneider-Mayerson

Transcript

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image credit | **kazuend**

Season 3, Episode 23: On EcoWellness and Psychedelic Therapy with Ryan Reese

Thomas and Panu spoke with Ryan Reese, a psychologist from Bend, Oregon USA about his work developing eco-wellness theory in counseling and his recent integration of psychedelic therapy and outdoor therapy. Ryan shared his personal journey and how experiences with nature and rivers (including fly fishing for Steelhead trout) played a role in his healing and growth. Ryan, Panu and Thomas highlighted the parallels between eco-therapy and psychedelic therapy, including the importance of creating a safe setting, adopting a mindset of self-transcendence and opening to the process of expanding one's consciousness. Their talk concluded with a recognition of how Thomas and Ryan’s social connection provided needed support during challenging times in Thomas’s earlier career.

Takeaways

• Nature and the more-than-human-world can have a significant impact on holistic wellness, including stress reduction and restoration of focus and attention.
• Psychedelic therapy and eco-based work share similarities in promoting self-transcendence and expanding one's consciousness.
• Creating a safe and supportive environment is crucial in both outdoor facilitation and psychedelic therapy.
• Social connections and shared education are essential in addressing climate-related issues and maintaining positivity, hope, and optimism.

Links

• Ryan Reese (Academic Homepage)
• Eco Wellness Counseling (Practice)
• Ecowellness Background and Resources
• Reese & Myers (2012) EcoWellness: The Missing Factor in Holistic Wellness Models
• Quest Therapeutics (psilocybin facilitation)

Transcript

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image credit | **Cate Bligh**

Season 3, Episode 22: On the Evolution of Outdoor Therapy with Will White

Thomas and Panu spoke with Will White, a long time outdoor and wilderness therapy practitioner, and a long time colleague of Thomas. They discussed the evolution of therapeutic camping and outdoor programs in the US dating to the 1800’s and current approaches (with parallels in places like Finland).They explored the role of emotions in outdoor therapy, including eco-anxiety and the impact of environmental change on treasured places. Their conversation highlighted the importance of slowing down and experiencing the pace of nature in a highly technological world.

Links

• Will White at the White Mountain Adventure Institute
• Stories from the Field podcast
• Will White (2015) Stories from the Field: A History of Wilderness Therapy

Transcript

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image credit | **Mason Kimbarovsky**

Season 3, Episode 21:“The Art of Survival” – Art and Climate Emotions

In this episode, Thomas and Panu discussed the role of art in their emotional coping with climate stress and other environmental problems. They explored the creative tensions between art and entertainment and being mindful when we chose to challenge ourselves with taking on complex or troubling movies, photographic images, writings, and music. They shared several examples and referenced their past podcast episodes with artists. Takeaways included the importance of being intentional about the nature and climate themed art you take in and not just being a passive consumer; and the need to unplug and engage in hands-on artistic experiences.

Notes / Links:

• Finnish distinction: “Arts”(taide) and “Entertainment” (viihde)
• Alissa Wilkinson (2018). First Reformed, starring Ethan Hawke, is bruising, vital, and one of the year’s best films
• Godspeed You! Black Emperor (Band)
• Amanda Stronza (animal memorials)
• Announcing the 2024 Oregon Book Award Winners
• From Anna Nieminen: Sitting and Moving With Climate Emotions: 3 process phases, 3 music dance videos
• Past CCH Episodes
• Art Gives Ecological Grief a Body, with Daniela Molnar
• On Women, Fear and Nature with Erica Berry
• On Nature, Poetry and Creativity with Kim Stafford
• Composing During the Climate Crisis with Scott Ordway

Transcript

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Image credit | Retrieved from youthvgov.org

Season 3, Episode 20: Behind the Scenes at the Montana Youth Climate Trial with Lise Van Susteren

Thomas and Panu talked with forensic psychiatrist Lise Van Susteren about her powerful experience as an expert witness at the historic Held v. Montana youth-sponsored climate trial in 2023. Lise spoke of her life and journey into politics and environmental and climate change advocacy, and her formative experience in the first cohort of Al Gore’s Climate Reality project. Lise, Thomas and Panu reflected on how mental health professions can begin to align their rhetoric about climate change and sustainability with their actions – such as addressing the carbon footprints of their own organizations and conferences. Join us for a behind the scenes view of the legal front on combating climate change.

Links

• Lise Van Susteren
• Richard Forbes (2023 June 26) In the nation’s first youth-led climate trial, a case for hope
• Climate Psychiatry Alliance
• Youth vs. Gov
• Thomas and Panu found it helpful to review the wide scope and many types of climate change litigation around the world.

Transcript

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image credit | **Mateo Heinze**

Season 3, Episode 19: Healing from Moral Injury with Caroline Hickman

Thomas and Panu had a new dialogue with UK Climate Therapy expert Caroline Hickman to discuss the concept of moral injury in relation to climate distress and its impact on people’s sense of meaning and trust. The conversation delved into feelings that arise in situations where one’s values are compromised and the impacts to relationships (e.g., feeling let down, betrayed, or having feelings denied). Caroline emphasized the need to differentiate between toxic and healthy guilt, to “locate guilt where it belongs,” and the importance of reparation and saying sorry on the part of people in power (with the example of former New Zealand Prime Minister Jacinta Arden). Panu noted that engaging in a survivor mission and taking action can provide a sense of purpose and contribute to addressing moral injury. Join us for reflections on responsibility and healing amidst a changing climate.

Takeaways

• Moral injury is closely related to climate distress and involves the damage to an individual's values and morals.
• Moral injury can lead to feelings of guilt, shame, and inadequacy, as well as a breakdown of trust in relationships.
• It is important to differentiate between toxic and healthy guilt and to locate guilt where it belongs (e.g., with societal decision makers, and those in power).
• Reparation and saying sorry can help in the healing process and the recovery of trust.

Links

• Being a Therapist in a Time of Climate Breakdown, edited By Judith Anderson, Tree Staunton, Jenny O’Gorman, Caroline Hickman
• Caroline Hickman (2024): Eco-Anxiety in Children and Young People– A Rational Response, Irreconcilable Despair, or Both?
• Caroline on our podcast, Season 3, Episode 8: Supporting Young People with Caroline Hickman
• Jacinta Ardern’s Ifoga (“sack ceremony”) in apology for New Zealand government’s Dawn Raids era against Pacific Island immigrants
• Greenpeace Nordic and Natur og Ungdom (Young Friends of the Earth Norway) Legal Victory
• Anto Cartolovni et al 2021 Moral injury in healthcare professionals: A scoping review and discussion

Transcript

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image credit | **Jonathan Kemper**

Season 3, Episode 18: Finding Your Place and Digging in

In this episode, Thomas and Panu discuss the importance of finding a place, digging in, and taking responsibility in the face of climate change and environmental issues. They explore the idea of being a creator or actor rather than a passive consumer and the significance of having short-term and long-term goals. Our missions take place in a web of relationships with humans and more-than-humans. Panu and Thomas also touch on the connection between climate change and death, and the need to engage with difficult topics. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the concept of non-action and the importance of mindfulness.

Takeaways

• Don’t try to be everything. Be “good enough.”
• Recognize that your mission will naturally change and evolve once you commit to action.
• Be a creator or actor or worker inspired by climate change, in your own way.
• Once you have your own thing to do, you don’t need to chase the news about every issue.

Soundbites:

• “Find your place on the planet. Dig in, and take responsibility from there.” — Gary Snyder
• "Climate change is like a red blinking light that reminds us of our own mortality."
• "Don't just be a consumer, be a creator or actor."

Transcript

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image credit | **Dan Meyers**

Season 3, Episode 17: On the Good Grief Network with LaUra Schmidt

Thomas and Panu were joined by LaUra Schmidt, co- founder of the Good Grief Network and co-author of How to Live in a Chaotic Climate. Laura shared her journey of combining her background in biology and environmental studies with trauma healing and psychology to address the emotional toll of climate change. She, Panu and Thomas discussed how the 12-step inspired Good Grief program helps individuals process their grief and find resilience about climate breakdown in a safe and supportive environment. Along the way, they looked deeper at the process of steps like accepting the severity of the environmental predicament, being with uncertainty, and honoring mortality; and the importance of peer support, accountability, and finding one's unique way of taking action. Join us for an inspiring conversation!

Links

• LaUra Schmidt, Aimee Lewis Reau and Chelsie Rivera (2023). How to Live in a Chaotic Climate
• Good Grief Network
• Early version of the Good Grief Steps

Transcript

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image credit | **Georgy Trofimov**

Season 3, Episode 16: Nature in Your Life with Thomas and Panu

In this episode, Thomas and Panu discussed some real-world aspects of nature and our relationship with the natural world, including different values associated with nature and other species, such as scientific, ethical, relationship and experience-based values. Thomas illustrated a spectrum of nature settings, from virtual nature such as art and images in the home, to nearby nature in our communities, to wild and protected places – with opportunities to be a cosmopolitan traveler between these contexts. The conversation evolved into a recognition of nature (in Finnish luonto) as an infinite set of processes and relationships, with nature settings being a doorway or threshold into the interconnectedness and interdependence of all beings. Panu and Thomas also touched on the concept of the “more than human world” (inspired by eco philosopher David Abram) and the need for “recollective practices” (inspired by ecopsychology theorist Andy Fisher) to connect with nature and counteract the divisive aspects of modern technological society.

Takeaways

• It is helpful to think of nature not as a thing, but rather a process and set of relationships that is constantly changing.
• There are different values associated with nature, including cultural, ethical, and experience-based values.
• The spectrum of nature settings ranges from virtual and indoor nature to wild nature, and each setting offers unique opportunities for connection.
• Recognizing the essence of a place and its history in deep time can deepen our understanding and appreciation of nature.
• Nature is interconnected and interdependent, and recognizing our place in the web of life is essential.
• Recollective practices can help us connect with nature and cope with difficult emotions related to climate change.

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image credit | **Aleksandra Sapozhnikova**

Season 3, Episode 15: Radical Joy in the Midst of Environmental Grief with Trebbe Johnson

Panu and Thomas had an inspiring dialog with vision quest facilitator Trebbe Johnson, founder of Radical Joy for Hard Times. They discussed the concept of radical joy in the face of environmental grief and the importance of acknowledging and confronting our sorrow for the natural world. Trebbe shared her personal journey of connecting with nature and how it led her to create an organization that focuses on finding joy and gratitude in damaged places. Panu and Trebbe also discussed their time together in Finland in November 2023 and the workshops they led.

Key Takeaways

• Radical joy can be found in the midst of sorrow and grief for the natural world.
• Acknowledging and confronting our grief for damaged places allows for a deeper connection and the possibility of transformation.
• Engaging in rituals and practices that honor and give back to hurt places can bring about a sense of joy and gratitude.
• Continuing bonds with nature, even in the face of loss and change, can help us navigate the ongoing challenges of climate change.

Links

• Trebbe Johnson
• Radical Joy for Hard Times
• Trebbe Johnson Books
• Global Earth Exchange

Transcript

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image credit | **Johannes Plenio**

Season 3, Episode 14: Meaning in Life and Meaning of Life

In this episode, Panu and Thomas reflected on ways to find a sense of meaning during an era of climate breakdown and other stresses. This can include meaning in your life (such as values that guide you) and meanings of and about your life (your purpose and reasons for living, such as caring for family). Their conversation ranged over profound topics like figuring out a life path, dealing with changes and threats, and the importance of opening up and asking big questions about meaning and happiness. Join the conversation!

Transcript

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image credit | **Sage Friedman**

Season 3, Episode 13: On the “Waking Up Syndrome” with Linda Buzzell

Summary

In this wide-ranging dialog, ecotherapy pioneer Linda Buzzell looked back on her history including her early environmental awakening working with French oceanographer Jacques Cousteau, her training in Marriage and Family Therapy and systems thinking, and her local activism in Santa Barbara, California. Linda described the development of the “Waking Up Syndrome” concept of sudden ecological awareness with her colleague Sarah Edwards and creation of the Ecotherapy anthology with Craig Chalquist. She, Thomas and Panu also discussed the distinctions between human-centered and nature-centered ecotherapy perspectives and the need for community-level approaches.

Links

• Linda Buzzell
• Sarah Edwards and Linda Buzzell (2008) The Waking Up Syndrome, (See also Linda Buzzell (2009) on The Waking Up Syndrome)
• Linda Buzzell & Craig Chalquist (2009) Ecotherapy: Healing with Nature in Mind
• Pacifica Graduate Institute (2023) Advanced Training Certificate in Ecotherapy: An Interview with Linda Buzzell, LMFT
• Scott Ordway (composer) Beyond Rain. See our podcast episode with Scott.
• David Key and Keith Tudor (2023) Ecotherapy: A Field Guide
• Erin Blakemore (2021) 5 ways Jacques Cousteau pushed to protect the planet. National Geographic.

Transcript

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image credit | **Thought Catalog**

Season 3, Episode 12: On Literature and Activism with Matthew Schneider-Mayerson

Thomas and Panu had a wide ranging and stimulating dialog with Matthew Schneider-Mayerson, an associate professor of English at Colby College whose work touches on the cultural and political dynamics of climate change with a focus on literature and climate justice. Matthew shared his environmental identity “origin story” including his early anti-sweatshop activism and discovering Elizabeth Kolbert’s classic climate change narrative Field Notes from a Catastrophe while waiting in his therapist's office. We discussed insights from his projects like the Ecotopian Lexicon and thoughts about helping his students create rituals together to show value for nature and the more-than human world.

Links

• Matthew Schneider-Mayerson
• An Ecotopian Lexicon:

• “Fire souls” Swedish: eldsjäl – Finnish: tulisielu

• “The Environmental Politics of Reproductive Choices in the Age of Climate Change.” Environmental Politics 31.1 (2022): 152-172

Transcript

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image credit | **Jonatán Becerra**

Season 3, Episode 11: Panu’s New Research on Ecological Sorrow

What kinds of losses do we experience due to environmental problems, and how can we understand the unique feelings of grief and sorrow that can ensue? Panu talked about his recent research paper, Ecological Sorrow: Types of Grief and Loss in Ecological Grief, that applied general knowledge about grief to ecological sorrow with more nuance than has previously been attempted. Thomas shared his reactions and the duo discussed ways to cope with issues like invisible losses that are “disenfranchised” and not officially recognized by society, and situations when people are not allowed to openly express their grief and sorrow about nature. Panu’s work reveals how ecological losses can be hard to measure and seemingly never ending, which makes ideas like “nonfinite loss” and “chronic sorrow” very relevant. Thomas and Panu shared ways to face ecological loss and grief in a healthy way, and invited listeners to reflect on their own feelings and ways of expression.

Links

• Panu’s research article:
• Pihkala, P. (2024) Ecological Sorrow: Types of Grief and Loss in Ecological Grief. Sustainability 16.

• You’ll find all the key points in this image!

  • Climate Change and Happiness episodes
  • A New Perspective on Eco-anxiety and Grief
  • When Grief Is A Barrier To Enjoying Time In Nature
  • On the Birth of Climate Therapy with Rosemary Randall
  • Varieties of Hope with Guest Elin Kelsey

Transcript

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image credit | **Taras Chernus**

Season 3, Episode 10: A World of Emotions Words with Tim Lomas

Thomas and Panu spoke with Tim Lomas, an emotions researcher and author of works like Translating Happiness: A Cross-Cultural Lexicon of Well-Being and The Positive Power of Negative Emotions, who has been influential on the field of positive psychology and on our podcast. It’s always enlightening to hear about a thinker’s background. Tim shared a bit of his story including an influential time spent in China at age 19 that exposed him to Buddhist and Daoist ideas that he continues to explore in his positive psychology research. The discussion touched on the benefits of the unique “granular,” that is specific and nuanced, nature of certain emotions words that can be complex and challenging to translate outside of their native language (such as Finnish sisu, Japanese wabi-sabi or Portuguese saudade). We can use a global palate of emotions to shine a light on our relationships with nature and the natural world, including our joys, hopes, and fears.

Links

• Tim Lomas
• Translating Happiness: A Cross-Cultural Lexicon of Well-Being

• Positive Power of Negative Emotions

• John Koenig: The Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows

• Understanding “Second Wave” Positive Psychology (from Wikipedia)

Transcript

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image credit | **Simon Lohmann**

Season 3, Episode 9: Taking Stock at the End of the Year

Thomas and Panu took stock of their feelings about the world as 2023 came to a close, and invited listeners to do the same. Thomas reflected on two quotes that are important to him and changing ways he has interpreted their meaning over the years: “In the beginner’s mind there are many possibilities. In the expert’s mind there are few” (Shunryu Suzuki); and “Find your place on the planet. Dig in, and take responsibility from there” (Gary Snyder). Panu described a ritual he participated in for the International Remembrance Day for Lost Species, celebrated on November 30. He and Thomas contemplated the importance of rituals, ceremonies and the arts including the recent Future Landscapes project. The idea of taking stock at the end of the year is echoed in the recent COP 28 meeting and 1st Global Stocktake—a process for countries to see how they’re collectively making progress towards meeting the goals of the Paris Climate Change Agreement. We know global warming will not be limited to 1.5 degrees Celsius / 2.7 Fahrenheit. We need to adapt to a hotter world, take care of the most vulnerable, and keep working to cool the planet down as quickly and safely as possible.

Links

• Remembrance Day for Lost Species, 30th Nov
• Global Stocktake | UNFCCC
• Ivo Bystřičan (Director) Invisible Landscapes Documentary and Future Landscapes Film-Music-Podcast Project
• Musical Group: Fyield
• On the Chinese, Daoist concept of Wu wei
• Sivuun Ensemble: Silentopia

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image credit | **Melissa Askew**

Season 3, Episode 8: Supporting Young People with Caroline Hickman

Thomas and Panu were joined by UK therapist and researcher Caroline Hickman. Caroline reflected on her formerly separate backgrounds as an environmentalist and a psychotherapist and pivotal nature experiences she had in midlife as a diving instructor that brought “all the parts of her life together." Caroline, Panu and Thomas discussed their recent activities and collaborations including the groundbreaking 2021 Lancet global survey of young people's climate emotions in ten countries worldwide. This research was powerful, Caroline and Panu explained, as it revealed crucial underlying facets of climate anxiety in youth including a lack of faith in leaders and a sense of betrayal by adults. Caroline also told of her interview studies with children and the fact that kids often know and care more than adults notice. Join us for a candid conversation and an invitation to reflect on what climate feelings tell us about the needs of young people and adults around us.

Links:

• Caroline Hickman
• Caroline Hickman, Elizabeth Marks, Panu Pihkala et al. (2021). Climate anxiety in children and young people and their beliefs about government responses to climate change: a global survey. The Lancet.
• Elizabeth Marks & Caroline Hickman. (2023). Eco-distress is not a pathology, but it still hurts. Nature Mental Health.
• Podcast: Ten years to 1.5°C: how climate anxiety is affecting young people around the world The Conversation (2021)

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image credit |**Andre Hunter**

Season 3, Episode 7: What To Do If You Are Feeling Bitter

Thomas and Panu reflected on varieties of the feeling of bitterness in response to the chronic stress of climate and environmental problems—ranging from Finnish concepts like epäreiluuden tunne (unfairness-feeling) to the “Cassandrafreude” described by climate scientists (the bitter pleasure of things going wrong in exactly the way you predicted, but no one believed you when it could have made a difference). As Panu observed, it is a psychological and ethical challenge to be proud (in a healthy way) of one’s own good actions, including “chosen losses” where a conscious decision is made to relinquish something, and to avoid (at least overly strong) bitterness. Thomas also referenced thinkers like Myisha Cherry and Audre Lorde who highlight the ethical reasons for not forgiving in the face of betrayals and injustice.

Links

• Myisha Cherry: Why I Don't Believe in Forgiveness
• Helen Rosner, 2021 A Philosopher’s Defense of Anger
• Audre Lorde 1981 The Uses of Anger: Women Responding to Racism
• Rosemary Randall 2009 Loss and Climate Change: The Cost of Parallel Narratives (see discussion of types of losses)
• Thea Gregerson et al 2023 The strength and content of climate anger
• See also Harriët Bergman 2023. Anger in Response to Climate Breakdown (Paywall)

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**Season 3, Episode 6: A Climate Vocabulary with Herb Simmens**

This episode found Thomas and Panu in dialogue with Herb Simmens, a long time advocate for addressing climate issues in local government, and author of the compendium of climate-related terms, A Climate Vocabulary of the Future. What kind of new words could be useful to make sense of living in the midst of climate change?

Links

• Herb Simmens
• A Climate Vocabulary of the Future, 2nd Edition
• Bureau of Linguistic Reality
• Glenn Albrecht on Negative and Positive Earth Emotions
• Finnish art project Utopedia. Inventing new words related to environmental futures (in Finnish)

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, our podcast, the show for people around the world who are thinking and feeling deeply about global climate change and all the other environmental issues that we can be aware of, and that affect us in our personal lives, in our daily lives. And like we say, we're all emotions all the time. So we really try to make a place for all our different feelings and our thoughts, and maybe our actions as well. And we have a guest today with us:

Herb Simmens: I am Herb Simmens, from Washington, DC, and the author of A Climate Vocabulary of the Future.

Doherty: Yeah, so we're really … We've been chatting with Herb and we love words here at this podcast, feelings words, concepts, and Herb has a whole book of an incredible lexicon of climate words. And we know this is one broad approach that people do to make sense of this big issue is trying to get the vocabulary of it. And I personally, as a lover of words, appreciate exploring an area through its vocabulary. So we're going to talk about that today. And you listeners can think about how this is landing for you. And you might also check out Herb’s book as well as kind of a guide, as an accessible guide to a lot of different really interesting concepts about climate change. Panu, do you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Herb, very glad to have you here. And we share a love also, for crafting words. I've done that mostly in the Finnish language, which functions so that we often put words together and of course, then you may also mix them a bit. And I see some similar things happening with English also in your book. And, but let us start with sort of roots and history. So could you share a bit about your own journey? What brought you to do this kind of creative, multifaceted work around climate issues?

Simmens: Well, thanks and I really appreciate the opportunity to be here today. I've really enjoyed the podcasts that I've listened to. I sort of grew up in the era and at least in the United States, when public policy and when government was looked at positively. Some of your listeners at a younger age may feel that … may be surprised to even hear that such an era existed. But, in the 1960s with then President John F. Kennedy [who said] “Ask not what your country can do for you,” you know, “what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country?” And as a result, I got involved in … I studied public policy, and worked in state and local government for many years. And I was actually the, the manager of a town in New Jersey, back in 1988, when Jim Hansen, the now famous climate scientist, appeared before Congress and said, “Global warming is real, and we have to pay attention to it.” And I remember, even back then discussing it with people in my town, what do we need to prepare for? And over the years, I continued to be involved in various ways, running a small nonprofit that was a consortium of New Jersey's colleges and universities focused on climate. I had the opportunity to help get the county that I live in right outside of Washington create or adopt the first climate emergency in the United States and the second in the world in 2017, and a whole bunch of other things that I won't take the time on now.

But you know, in the last … a few years ago, it struck me that, what's maybe sort of obvious to me and to some people, but it wasn't to everybody back then, was the climate affects everything. I mean, you could sort of do it like a parlor game and just pick a topic or a word and say, “How does climate connect to this?” you know, and sooner or later, you'd be able to figure out a connection. And so I thought, well, since climate affects everything and sadly not that we wanted to, climate being climate change, that it's important for us to label what's happening, both to educate people and to stimulate people to have their emotions activated, if you will, because it's so important to identify what's going on.

And plus, I just always have loved playing with words. So I basically wrote the first edition of the book, and in 2017, it had about 400 terms, half of which are original. And then I sort of put it aside, I didn't want to deal with words for years. I was like … and I dealt with other aspects. And then two years ago, I thought, it's time for an update. And to my amazement, I thought I would, you know, add 100 words. But I added another four or five hundred words and terms. And here we are today. And I guess the fact that I added so many terms, sadly, is an indication of how much more pressing and huge climate is as a problem.

Doherty: Yeah, so are you from New Jersey originally?

Simmens: From Philly [Philadelphia] across the river from Jersey.

Doherty: Yeah. So that one's one strand to talk about a little bit. It's just this background, because, you know, Philadelphia, broadly, New Jersey, you know … here I'm in Portland, Oregon, which is known as an environmental consciousness kind of town, but for whatever reason, New Jersey or Philadelphia might not necessarily be seen as environmental hotbeds. But, that's not really true, right? You've been aware. The point I'm trying to make is that there are people aware of climate change, and have been aware of climate change for many, many years, and in all parts of the country and all parts of the world. So you've seen climate change, as an issue in local city government, state government for decades and decades?

Simmens: Well, you know, I would like to be able to say that I agree with your statement, but I'm not sure I can say that, because it's mostly been a non-issue when it should have been an issue. And that's what I've seen is the level of indifference, minimization, denial, you know, name your word, speaking of words. And I'll just very briefly give you an example here in Montgomery County, Maryland, where our community literally declared an emergency and set the toughest greenhouse gas emission reduction target in the country, maybe the world of an 80% reduction countywide by 2027. And it has been an important issue in the county, but nowhere near an emergency. The distinction between another important issue, like taxes are important and good schools are important, you know, at that level, as opposed to, we've got to put this first because our future is in line. It hasn't happened here. And I haven't seen it happen pretty much anywhere in the country.

Doherty: Yeah, so it's both-and. I talk to young people a lot, and they think this issue is new, but like yourself, you've been living with this issue for years. It was almost 30 years between Hansen and when you all did the climate emergency. So I just want to just make sure that we shout out to listeners who have been working on this for years and just honor that. That's the piece I want to honor here.

Simmens: Absolutely. There's so many people that put their hearts and souls into this issue for, as you say, for years, if not decades. And you know, it's been lonely. It's been, you know, you could have a whole vocabulary and you maybe you have had shows about this, you know, the emotional price that one pays, when one is sort of looked at as a kind of Cassandra, or one is looked at as this Doomsayer. When you know … and then you never want to be in a position 5 or 10 or 15 years later saying, “You know, I was right. You know, things are … we did need to act 10 years ago, or 20 years ago, or 5 years ago, whatever.” So it's very emotionally draining to have been in that position. To honor, I mean, it's critically important to honor those folks as you suggest, and to recognize the price that many of us have paid.

Pihkala: Yeah, I think that's a very important point. And I've been working mostly in Finland publicly in this, ecological emotions, and especially ecoanxiety in the Finnish form, which is more like “environment-anxiety” (ympäristöahdistus). And that has led to some interesting discussions with people who have been aware of ecological issues and sometimes climate issues for decades. And now finding some validation because there are public discourses about psychological toll. Of course, there is also, you know, feelings of honor to be had when, you know, that you are trying to work for the right things. So there's always a complex mix of emotions and one of the new words in my Finnish book is “suojelijakiitollisuus,” which is quite technical, it literally means “gratitude about those who have participated in nature protection.” It's more of a pedagogical word, you know, drawing attention that it is a source of gratitude for me, and I know for many others, those people who had to work sometimes in much more difficult circumstances than now, psychosocially speaking. Of course, it's not easy still. And we have, in some places growing identity polarization around climate issues, for example, But anyway, just resonating with some of these things. And does this remind you of some of the concepts in your book?

Simmens: Well, I mean, there are many concepts in my book that span the whole range of, you know, sort of climate, climate emotions, if you will. I mean …maybe I can mention just a couple of the terms that I'm not sure, you know, I'm not sure how much on target they are with what you're saying, but they're sort of in the ballpark. One of the things is, because of the nature that those of us who are involved, essentially have a pretty good sense of what's going to come and maybe how bad it's going to be, but not necessarily when and how and where is the level of uncertainty. So I came up with the concept of an “antemortem,” where you're basically…mortem being death, essentially, you're in anticipation, you're sort of anticipating or analyzing what may happen, and sort of grieving in advance. You know, because today if you are where I am, it's a beautiful day. It's 80 degrees Fahrenheit, and you know, the world is wonderful. It's .. there's a kind of hidden, you know… Here's another one … the “false climate summit.” For those who are mountain climbers know that often in certain large mountains, you get up there, and you think you're at the summit, but you're not, there's another one behind it. So, I coined the term “false climate summit” that we know we've made a certain degree of progress, or we've gotten through this, [and we say] “Oh, my God, there's another one,” you know, “where am I then going to get the … candy bars and the energy bars and the emotional support to get to the next summit? You know, that kind of thing.

And another one is what I call “bifocal behavior,” the idea that climate almost requires the same way with people with certain kinds of glasses, to be able to look at the distance, and to look at what's now at the same time. We can't take our eyes off of the, you know, the sort of the future 30 years from now, or else we won't achieve it. But if that's all we look at, and we don't deal with the opportunities and the pain and the suffering and the grief and the confusion, then we will have failed or at least not succeeded. So anyway, those are a few terms I'll just throw out. You're going to have to stop me because I got 1000 In the book, and you only have a few minutes! But what you know is that, you know, those are a few that cover various dimensions of climate and, you know, sort of the emotional landscape.

Doherty: Yeah, … it's great. I have to make a note about this idea of [false summit]. As someone who's been a mountain climber, the idea of a false summit, I know what that is. We… we've been climbing for hours, like Mount Adams, near where I live is a big mountain we all can see. And it has a very notorious false summit when you're the first time climbing up there. But they tell you there is but you don't believe it until you see it. And when you get up to this … precipice, you think that must be the top, and then you get to this and then you see a whole other set of the mountain, and little tiny ants up on the side of the mountain, which are the other people that are far ahead of you.

Yes, we love to do wordplay here. But you know, “False Climate Summit” is also a play on words about some of these meetings that we have, like the upcoming COP. I think a lot of people would think that's a “false summit,” in the sense of it's already sort of infiltrated by fossil fuel interests and

things like that.

Simmens: Oh, I don't know how you can say that, Thomas! [laughs] The fact that it's being led by the head of the oil company, the head of a Middle Eastern oil power, you know, oh, you're much too cynical!

Doherty: Yeah. So humor is our friend, if we can if we can find humor. But you know, so I'm curious of where you find your words. I imagine you're always on the hunt. There's some of your words that are very pop cultural, which I like. Like there's an entry called “So Holocene,” which is a great, great kind of pop culture term. So the idea that the Holocene is this traditional geological age that we've become accustomed to as humans, and now that's changing because of climate change to a different geological regime, you know, in the planet. That's the Holocene era that we're mourning the loss of. But to say something’s “So Holocene” that means it's kind of like “so yesterday.” It's “so 90s.” …It's so quaint that you're, you know, so when we make our summer plans, and we think we're going to do a certain thing. “Oh that it is ‘So Holocene’ that you think you're just going to make some plans, and there's not going to be wildfire smoke or a flood or something like that.” Do you know where you got that term “So Holocene” from?

Simmens: I think that one I found online somewhere, maybe Twitter, I don't know. You know, I distinguish in the book, I have a sort of a special dot or mark for those terms that, as far as I know, are original with me. At least when I do a Google search … they didn't show up as a climate term. And those that I basically …you know, taking out of the reading I do and whatever. But generally, I mean, most of what I've done is simply to, as I'm reading, if I'll read a paragraph in a book, and it may not even be about climate, and I think, you know, the author is taking a whole paragraph or a whole page to explain this concept. There should be a word or a term for this. And so that's what I'll do is sort of scribble on the side of the book and say, you know, maybe a couple of different terms.

And that's how I, and also, when I'm walking here, I'm not a mountain climber, but walking and hiking. You know, I basically, I guess, my experience is enriched by looking at the relationships between the plants and the animals and the birds and the sounds. And then, who knows where creativity or even if one would be so bold as to even call what I've written creative, but you know, sort of something will come to me. Like the idea of one of the terms I have is “biophonic discord.” Basically meaning, and this is a tragic term, where it represents something tragic, which is that, one of the many spheres of life on the planet is the soundsphere, the “sonosphere.” And that is being changed dramatically, as is everything else. As you know, as certain animals are more or less prevalent in an area, et cetera, and plants and all the rest of the ecological changes. And so we have a kind of “biophonic discord” that's out there. So anyway, that, you know, I don't know if that's a great answer to your question. But I guess the simple answer is they come from everywhere and nowhere and half the time they surprise me when they pop up in my head.

Pihkala: Yeah, that's definitely creative, in my opinion and mind. You have already hinted at some of these, but I'd like to ask even more explicitly about what has this project meant for you, this whole endeavor of coining these words? And whether you had some particular aims consciously, when doing the books? So, something about the impacts, and aims…

Simmens: A lot of my goal, and that's why I attempted, and only the reader can tell if I succeeded, I attempted to put some humor and lightness in the book at times as well. But in a way, it's sort of an attempt to give a reader the opportunity to learn not just about climate change, but about the connections between all the aspects of climate and life in a much more digestible way than, you know, sort of picking up a book that's 400 pages and, and reading and you have to read from page one linearly to the end, because the second chapter depends upon reading the first, whereas my book, you can, you know, pick it up any place, point your finger to a term and read it and get the benefit of that without having to, you know, be disciplined about everything.

So maybe it's sort of like a bite-sized effort at providing information that is not, as far as I know, not available, at least in this format in any other manner. And that was a lot of the motivation for me. And then the other is pure selfishness. It's been great fun to do it! And I, you know, I have one of the terms is “microguilt” in my book. I have a lot microguilt when I say that to you right now. It's like, how can I say something is great fun when we're talking about such a potentially tragic issue? And you know, one of the things I've learned, that I don't always practice years ago from a therapist, is the concept of instead of but-and to notice something could be fun and tragic, fun and onerous at the same time. It doesn't have to be one or the other. So it's really been it's been great fun for me, you know, I wrote about half the book sitting at a Starbucks on the beach in South beach in Miami Beach, in one of the most wonderful venues I could ever imagine. I was so excited there. I used to write love letters to the manager, I mean, about how great a venue they had!

Pihkala: So anyway, yeah, thanks for expanding on that. And I can personally resonate with much of that, especially in connection to my second Finnish book about eco emotions, which was a handbook. So it had some similar ideas. You know, you can open it from anywhere, and then different types of things which are given names, or little descriptions. And I ended up writing short, prosaic texts in between to sort of explore some aspects of eco emotions. And we've often in this podcast talked about the need to be open to both sadness and joy, for example. So there’s great dangers in this era, because it is so difficult and so much filled with suffering, that we sort of start to deny ourselves and others the possibility for joy, joy and laughter. And that's not something that even the people who live in varying conditions filled with suffering always do, quite the contrary. So there's something very human in the ability also to share things that produce gladness with others. And I don't want in any way to “brightside” suffering and very dark circumstances. But I really think that this idea of being open to creativity and humor and at the same time being open to very sad issues as you are also in the book, I think that's really crucial.

Doherty: Yeah. And we are again, being lovers of words, there is this idea of creating a kind of vocabulary, is done, you're probably familiar, you know… I'm going to call you Hank, I think, right, instead of Herb I think you might go by Hank for more casually. You know, Glenn Albrecht in Australia and has done a lot of work around his own lexicon and [new words like] “solastalgia.” And probably if he were here, Glenn would agree with some of this and have his own unique take on it. But it is this personal, creative, it's a creative response. And then the Bureau of Linguistic Reality, and … looking at some books on my shelf. But we've got other kinds of books.. I myself have coined, you know, my own terms like “climate hostage,” and various sorts of things. So there's this creative… So for the listeners, you know, there it is exactly as, as Hank says, it's “yes and.” And so we can feel this and that, and it's the 360 degree range of emotions. Our mind is primed to look at danger and threats. So we tend to focus on those first from a survival standpoint. But we have to work hard to bring those other emotions in. And so just honoring that.

I had a question. I mean, we've got the pop culture terms in the terms that you create, Hank yourself to kind of make sense. But then there's some other words. I noticed you have a lot of great testimonials in your book, you know, from people like [author] Kim Stanley Robinson, and some of the people that I admire. Kim Stanley Robinson, of course, has imagined whole, you know, worlds and future scenarios. And you have a word “World Climate Organization.” So that's the proposed organization that will be responsible for managing climate. So it's almost like the World Trade Organization, but we would have a world climate organization or a carbon reserve bank. So we would… so the World Bank would also, you know, work on this more directly. But those must be terms that people have been actually proposing in the real world. I would assume that you've heard about somewhere?

Simmens: In some cases, yes. In some cases, no. And actually, in the first edition of the book, I had a separate section with terms that I came up with or that were existing, that reflect policies, I mean, or actions as opposed to simply, you know, describing an emotion or an owner situation. And so that's where I had a whole section on things like the World Trade Organization, as you say,or the carbon Reserve Bank. Some of them were original to me, and others, you know, are sort of out there. Ironically, when you said, the World Climate Organization reminds me of the World Trade Organization, there is an international group that was established to attempt to come up with strategies to avoid overshooting the 1.5 [Celsius] targets. And there I have just been in touch with them two days ago. And they're trying to basically come up with a report in history and a strategy. And the guy who is head of that head of that is the former head of the World Trade Organization, just coincidentally.

But yes, those kinds of things are from my background in public policy. I mean, there's part of me that says, Oh, yes, here's this new entity, and here's this new organization. And here's this new group that we could create. You know, that go, you know, a world counseling group, where you, you're trained 1000s and 10s, of 1000s of peer counselors to support each other. I mean, you know, to me, the broader vision that I that I have and I tried to reflect it in the vision that I wrote is, is that there's so many new institutional arrangements that I think are not happening, that could really enrich our lives, no matter what the ultimate outcome, if there is one, will be of the climate crisis. And that certainly one of them is to have millions of people doing peer counseling with each other.

Doherty: Yeah. And I know, I've heard people talk about that. And folks who are working in transformational resilience and the Climate Psychology Alliance, and people doing climate cafes. [So that’s right.] So that's the other angle here, like, again, thinking of writers like Kim Stanley Robinson. It’s … there's an aspect of futurism where we kind of just lean a bit into the future, the near future, you know, predictions. It’s not science fiction. It's really just taking existing trends and just moving them forward, or also, realizing that there are things already happening, that I didn't realize, that I thought were going to happen in the future that already are happening [now]. So, I think there can be some pleasant surprises when we realize, “Oh, these things are already happening.” And some more things are happening in Finland, for example, that in the US might seem futuristic, but the Finns have been doing for a while.

Simmens: Well, you know, there's the book, I may have attempted to accomplish too much with the book, because the scenario that I write in the book for looking back from 2035, basically shows how the world can and I think absolutely it's a feasible if not probable future, can reverse climate change and restore a safe climate, through the careful knitting together of a lot of these institutions and ideas and concepts that aren't being given full attention by the world community. You know, that's a whole other podcast to go into all that.

But, I came up with a term that some groups that I'm working with to activate some changes at the international level are using the “climate triad,” which is basically currently, we have one of the terms that came up with ERA “emission reductions alone,” the current model of climate action is almost entirely focused on emission reductions, and of course, adaptation. But what a number of us are saying we need to broaden that, to give equal attention, and weight and action to removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, and most controversial, and maybe some of your listeners will, you know, turn off when I say this right now, but some form of what we call “direct cooling of the climate,” others call geoengineering, which has enormous potential and yes, can be scary, to literally lower the world's thermostat in a matter of months, and prevent incredible amounts of suffering. And this 2035 scenario is sort of built around that concept.

Pihkala: Yeah, and that's fun. One part of the book, which we haven't discussed much yet is that it begins with these scenarios, which also then link to many of the words in the book. So that's an interesting way to provide links to some of the content but also, I liked the way that what you are trying to do, of course, is imaginative, but also sort of realistic at the same time, estimations of things that may go into the good direction and and things that seem to go to a bad direction. So I liked the nuances there. And a Finnish smaller scale version of inventing new words for the future was called the Utopedia (http://utopedia.fi/mika/). So that was also about futures, not just about utopia, but that's something that also came to mind when reading these scenarios that you've built. So there is an element of utopia, which I'm not interested about, you know, like that “we will all live under blossoming apple trees”. Not that kind of utopia, but more like being able to discern things in the future that would be important and desirable.

Doherty: Yeah, we're coming toward the end of our time. But this is just…I thought I was going to highlight a few key phrases and entries from your book, Hank, but I couldn't stop! So I've got too many highlights now. So I might just, you know, so it's climate vocabulary for the future. So it's a climate vocabulary really also for the present, obviously. But, I think for listeners who might not have time or bandwidth to read Kim Stanley Robinson's novels or really take a course in climate science and climate adaptation, or carbon capture, some of those neat science things, this is a great accessible entree into these concepts, and also how they fit together into a future scenario.

And I think, you know, what we describe of the future becomes the future. So it is … we do need to actively go into the future and create it, or else it happens to us. So I really appreciate Hank, that you've done this and shared it with people. Panu, do you want to finish us out with some thoughts here?

Pihkala: Yeah, we always try to finish with at least you know, being able to look more toward a tomorrow. Herb, is there any that kind of word that comes into your mind from your book, which is sort of related to the desire to live?

Simmens: Well, if I could, I thought maybe I would just read one brief paragraph, from this vision for the future that comes at the end, that follows what I said earlier about a vision that actually could restore a safe climate and not just avoid the worst. So this comes at the end of a 20 page narrative. So, it has to be looked at in the larger context. But basically, what I say is:

As of New Year 2035, the Triad based restoration movement was proving that it could succeed in achieving the unthinkable this century — restoring a healthy climate. To celebrate the success, revelers in 450 cities celebrated by cheering on as 450 carbon concentration clocks showed the first decline in CO2 concentrations since the industrial revolution from — you guessed it — 451 to 450 parts per million.

Restoration inspired billions to turn from social media, Kim Kar- dashian, fast fashion, drugged despair, enervating energy battles, and false fascist allures to the most exciting challenge of all — rebuilding a thriving healthy planet for all by meeting the One Generation Climate Challenge. We find ourselves finally on the path back to the sweet comfort of ecostasis — with harmony within and between the planet’s ecosystems and life.

So that's sort of how I end this scenario.

Doherty: Yeah, thanks. It's important for us to spend time with these visions, and you do a great job, you don't sugarcoat any of the problems, but you also, you know, you don't deny any of the solutions, either. And the possibilities. So that's that, “yes-and.

Simmens: That's right. And I think it's just the concept that we have one generation, roughly one generation where if the world comes together, or mostly together, to do the right thing, it would motivate you know, literally hundreds of millions of young people and whatever. And that's I guess, that's my larger sort of mega goal is the hope that that the words and the concepts in this book and play a tiny role in in motivating people to get beyond, to certainly acknowledge the despair and the grief and everything we legitimately feel, but to transcend that, or do at the same time build a future that we have to do right now or it'll be too late.

Pihkala: One thanks for joining us. It's been truly delightful, and I look forward to spending even more time with the climate vocabulary.

Simmens: Thank you so much. It was really great to chat with you guys and you, you do a wonderful job and I really feel honored to be on your program.

Doherty: Yeah, thanks. I'll be sharing this book with some of the people that I work with. And we'll have some show notes here that will describe Hanks’s and maybe some other references that Hank thinks are helpful. So this is climate change and happiness.com. You can find us at that address, climatechangeandhappiness.com and please support us through our website or through our Patreon to keep bringing you these very interesting shows and great guests. And Hank and Panu. you have a good rest of your day. Take care.

Pihkala: Thanks Thomas. Take Care.

The Climate Change and Happiness podcast is a self funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com

View Details

**Climate Emotions Wheel** *© 2023 by Anya Kamenetz, Panu Pikhala, Sarah Newman, Megan Slade, JulieSouza, Ryleigh Corrigan is licensed under CC BY-SA4.0 |* Resource at ClimateMentalHealth.Net. Based on research by Panu Pihkala at the University of Helsinki and particularly his 2022 paper:“Toward a Taxonomy of Climate Emotions“ | Featured in NYC Times Square Hope Hydration Hydrostation.

Season 3, Episode 5: The Climate Emotions Wheel

Thomas interviewed Panu about his recent climate emotions research and the Climate Emotions Wheel created by the Climate Mental Health Network based on Panu’s work.

Links

• Climate Emotions Wheel
• Climate and Mental Health Network
• Panu Pihkala 2022 Toward a Taxonomy of Climate Emotions
• Gen Dread: Climate emotions aren’t all “negative”

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Please support the climate change and happiness podcast. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Doherty: Hi, this is Thomas Doherty …

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is our podcast. Panu and I have been working on this podcast for a couple of years now. It came from our own personal dialogues, and we thought we'd open this up and share this with the public and with our, you know, bringing in our colleagues. This is a podcast for people around the globe who are thinking, and most importantly, feeling a lot of interesting, deep things about climate change and other environmental issues. And so in this particular podcast, we talk about the emotional aspects. Panu has been doing a lot of research and writing on this. I'm working with people on this and also doing my own writing and work. And so this is a place for the emotions, all emotions all the time. The emotions are in our bodies, they're physiological, we can measure those, the feelings, of course, are infinite, because it's our language and our words and all around the world are all kinds of different feelings words we use to describe our emotions. So, Panu, speaking of emotions, I know you've been working on this for years now, recently, someone adapted some of your work into an emotions wheel. A Wheel of different kinds of emotions that think about in terms of climate change. And I thought we would touch in on that, see what you see what you think about that, and how that how that flows out of your work. And we'll go from there.

Pihkala: Yes, thanks, Thomas. This climate emotion wheel has now been shared pretty heavily in social media. And the visualization and the selection of the words was made by the organization, the Climate and Mental Health Network. And they asked me to comment on the project also. So, I did some of some of that. And there's been interesting developments. For example, it's been on a Times Square advertisement in New York for him for a while. And so it really seems to resonate with many, many people. And myself, when I started to dig deeper into emotion studies, I remember that visualizations were very helpful—in addition to all this text that we have about emotions. Robert Plutchik has this famous emotions wheel and there are several versions available online. And as you Thomas well know, emotion researchers have debates between them as all researchers do. So there's no standard emotion wheel that would be accepted by everyone, I really think that these are practically useful. But of course, they also have their limits. And there are always simplifying things. So there's pros and cons in using this. But I'm very happy that my work has been useful in the creation of this wheel.

Doherty: Yes! You can go on Amazon and find a climate emotions wheel pillow and a climate emotions wheel … therapists use these in their work. And there's posters. And any mental health person will be familiar with this stuff. It's helpful to have some sort of guide to all different kinds of emotions. So there's two things that we're talking about in this podcast for people in the know. For researchers, there's all the backstory of how people empirically study this. And it's quite interesting. And then there's just our own need of it. Because we cannot be alive without having emotions, all living things have some sort of emotional response to the environment. And then of course, as humans, we have these nuanced, potentially nuanced feelings. So it's nice to have, like anything else, a guide, a taxonomy, as you say, a list of words. And the wheel is just putting that into a graphic form. And so I think it's helpful. Do you think, you know, as someone who gets deep into this. Obviously, I believe you think it's helpful for people to look at these kinds of wheels and I'm so impressed that it's in Times Square, I didn't know that. I think that's great. Is there any downsides of putting this onto a wheel?

Pihkala: Well, there's all always potential dangers. And also in relation to the old emotion wheels, people have been wary of the possibility that folks would think that the emotions in the middle somehow are really the most important and primary ones. That's a big debate in emotion research, whether there are sort of basic emotions or universal emotions shared by people worldwide. [Yeah.] So that's one possible misconception is that, you know, these four, emotional words in the middle, that they would be the only real overall candidate categories. But then then again, that is not what know what the wheel and the people are saying. So, the makers of the climate emotion wheel, they didn't intend that this would have all the relevant emotion words, they just wanted to provide many useful emotion words, so that people can think about what they may be feeling and what others may be feeling. So this may be validating both for people themselves and in relation to others. And we know from science, that if we have names for emotions, even roughly pointing to the right direction, then it's easier for us to engage with that, with those emotional energies. And I know Thomas that this is a very commonplace thing for you as a therapist, you know, helping people to name and recognize what they are actually feeling.

But this brings us to a very important another point, which is that there's lots of different emotional energies often in our body-mind, by body-mind I mean that our body and mind are connected, and I liked the word even though it's a bit technical. And that's also something which sometimes doesn't come up in climate emotions research or public discussions. For example, people may sort of have the presupposition, that, you know, should I feel just anger? Or is somebody just feeling anxiety or sadness or just hope? And it's not so, people are feeling many kinds of emotions and feelings and sometimes there can be interesting clusters of emotions, or interlaced emotions, you know, emotions which are somehow tied to each other in the person's experience or the group's experience. And that's something I think Thomas we haven't talked about yet in the podcast, even though we have been talking a lot about climate emotions. But I'm interested about these emotions that go together for some people in certain situations.

Doherty: Yeah. When I see the climate wheel (and we'll put a link to this—you can google “climate emotions wheel” and you'll find this and you'll find other famous wheel models of emotion.) I think of the color wheel, you know, when people are doing art and design, when we're mixing colors to get different shades. I haven't seen that, you might have seen that talked about, but you know, these primary colors, you know, primary emotions. Obviously, humans like to categorize things so we're always sort of seeing what box and so they categorize emotions they're always looking for, for more simpler sets of emotions. But the color wheel I think is a helpful analogy. Because feeling blue, whichever emotion you want to categorize for blue, and then of course, feeling yellow emotions, you know, creates green emotions. So we can run with that metaphorically. People who are feeling sad about the environment and also love and curiosity might lead them to some deeper connection with the environment. You know, I don't know. So, I love playing with the metaphors. But yes, and just for the public. I mean, we're … we've, you know, read too many pieces and too much stuff about climate emotions. We're kind of deep into this. But just keeping in mind like Panu was saying, people have researched emotions for forever going back to you know, Aristotle or whatever, and tried to make different categories and different things.

And there's some famous researchers out there that have studied people's facial expressions and how emotions are physical things in our bodies and we have the physical posture or facial expression that causes us to feel certain things. So the bi-directional aspect. Psychologist used to be a debate about what came first—a thought or a feeling you know—which was faster? That's an interesting area and, of course, more recently, people have been like yourself, talking about climate emotions and really trying to figure out what people are feeling about all these issues. And that's, that's newer. And that's really interesting.

And then we have different even different views on that, right? We know people use regular emotions words like loneliness or loss. You know, Glenn Albrecht is a thinker that has created a whole special vocabulary of climate words to kind of, I think, give justice to these unique kind of … and I think that speaks a little bit to those special feeling mixes that you're talking about. But, you know, “solastalgia” is a well-known word that that a lot of people have heard that was came out of that work, this combination of being nostalgic, but feeling lost for an area that you're actually haven't left, it's idea that the world is leaving you versus you leaving the world. And we're, that's a very interesting, nuanced emotion that's really touched a chord for people. But it's important for people not to get confused about this. These are just diverse, interesting ways, you know, that people are talking about emotions. Right? Is that a fair statement, Panu?

Pihkala: Yes, I think definitely, so. And I love the color metaphor that you are using Thomas and I have sometimes been thinking about shapes and colors. So if a person, like many Finns are, is feeling, climate, guilt, and sadness, and hope, at the same time, or next to each other, what kind of form and color a visualization could depict that? And this is something of course, which can sometimes be done in self-reflection or in workshops for it, for example. And it's not scientific, but it's helpful. And that's the most important thing. And Glenn Albrecht work has been highly influential for my own book and solastalgia for example, is in this taxonomy of climate emotions paper. It didn't end up in the wheel, but it's, it's there, broadly. Earth emotions, as Glenn calls them. There's lots of very important shades that are coming out.

Two big things that are also related here is one that you hinted at Thomas, which is sort of the length or intensity of emotion. So there may be sort of short-lived emotions or feelings and tentatively, maybe longer time, affective phenomena, for example, mood. And this is something which is important in relation to climate emotions, also. And I know that many people have generally a bit like sad moods and you know, then hopefulness may pop up at times. And if you have a tendency towards sad mood, that doesn't mean that you wouldn't ever experience joy, for example. And this is one of the richnesses of our emotional lives. And especially when they are healthy, when we are able to feel these different emotions, then our capacity to feel all kinds of emotions is larger. And this is a long road for any of us.

I know that personally, for example, it's a continuous learning process to be open to various emotional energies. Of course, one needs to also do some regulation about it. And in social situations, we can't just always let all emotion out. That would be very problematic. But it's also very problematic if we do too much suppression or repression. And finally, before, I want to ask what you think about this issue, the “about-ness” of emotions, so climate emotions, some of them are about climate change in general, but then some are about certain aspects of it. And for example, joy, it's very difficult to feel joy about the existence of the climate crisis. But it's very often that I feel joy because of the large number of climate activists, for example.

Doherty: I was thinking about some of the research, but the last … What was the last part about climate activists? So I didn't quite follow that piece. The last part of your statement there.

Pihkala: Yeah. Well, what I mean, is that some of the so-called positive emotions, may be much easier to feel in relation to, for example, climate action. Yes. Yeah. Then to climate change in general?

Doherty: Yes, exactly! I was watching some film recording of the recent climate march in New York City. And I saw a little bit of the speech of Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, you know, and it was very uplifting and it was, you know, you could … I could sense the energy of the crowd there. And so I think that's one of the one of the aspects, one of the many is like, we don't feel them [emotions] only in isolation, they're social, you know, social things that happen within groups of people. So that's, that's one angle here. And what is, there's a saying, you might know it, I think it's a Swedish saying about being together cuts our grief and half, but it doubles our joy, you know, something like that. So, being together with people is both helpful for sad feelings. It helps to bear the weight of sad feelings, we're sharing them, but like, being together and sharing them positively kind of multiplies, … I mean, we could do a whole podcast on emotions. We do! But we could do a whole other podcast just on the science of emotion. And the social aspect and the neuropsychological, brain aspect of it, and the philosophical, social justice aspects of this kind of stuff. It's just fascinating.

Pihkala: Yeah, I think that's a great, great point Thomas and very relevant for climate emotions. Because some of them are so heavily intertwined with our social relations. And that's why, for example, I didn't just apply any theory of basic or universal emotions, because those are more related to, you know, “what did we get in evolution type of thing,” and what sort of emotional energies we need, for example, if we live in a forest or jungle, but then amidst other members of our tribes, and also contemporarily, there's all these dynamics about guilt, and honor, for example, social approval or disapproval, and feelings related to sharing life, but also social hierarchies and so on. So many of our climate emotions, are heavily moderated by the social dynamics. And that's, I think, an important aspect.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So there's a saying, you know, all models are wrong, some are useful. So all these different models are limited in some way. They, they obscure something. And that's why we have different thinkers. And that's why I have people with different models, because they show things that that are lost. So a wheel image captures some things, but a list captures another process. You know, I mean, one way to moderate our climate emotions, and is go to different groups of people. I mean, that's one way to categorize climate subcultures like what is their dominant feeling? Well, I know if I go to this meeting, it's going to be dominantly fear and anxiety of this particular group. I know that this one is going to be curiosity. You know, if I know this one, it might be if I go to the Climate March, I imagine the feelings are going to be righteous indignation and camaraderie. And so we can we can put ourselves where we want to get the feelings, you know, it's, we're social beings, you know, we're group animals. And so that's one way of coping, coping with this stuff.

And like I talk about being a climate cosmopolitan, like, I can go and hang out with the people that are creating new interesting language words and see what that's like. And I can go to the scientists and see what they have to say. And I can go to the march and see what they have to say. And it's the right tool for the job. I think practically, when you're, if someone's trying to make change in their organization, or in their school or in their job … this is the classic with any kind of change. You have to understand your audience and you have to understand how they typically speak. I know if I bring in ideas like solastalgia or “terrafurie” is another great word. I love that—sort of like anger about the climate and environmental issues. You know, it's anger, like we all know, but “terrafurie” has this special tone to it. Now with some groups, they would love to hear that and it really is helpful. But if I am at the hospital, at Mass General Hospital, and I'm talking about working with the patients and the researchers, and I say, we have to channel our terrafurie, well, they might say, “Okay, that sounds like environmentalism. That's not going to fit here in our hospital.” So, if I talk about emotions, and that our clients are struggling with difficult emotions, and that, you know, so it's using the right emotional language for the right subculture and for what you're trying to do. So there's always this practical side. I imagine you've seen that as well in your work.

Pihkala: Yes, definitely. Definitely so. My public work in Finland has taken me to many kinds of audiences and it's quite different if you work with an environmental NGO, or then a network of car sales persons who have become interested about climate matters. So just to mention a couple of couple of examples. Our episode with Renee Lertzman some months ago was closely related to this, because she's one of the persons who has been studying and observing emotions which are under the surface. And that's a yet another complication, that there may be climate emotions that people are not aware of themselves for complex reasons. For example, it may feel intuitively too painful to allow all the sadness to come to the surface, for example, or people, including myself, often might want to repress some of the guilt. So, for communication and education, that's another layer of trying to be aware that there may be things under the surface. And for me, following the guidance of Susan Moser and others, one key takeaway has been to not be threatening in communication because there is so much fear underneath the surface in people, even those who don't claim themselves to be environmentalist in any way. So, all kinds of threatening imagery, for example, can just block people more. So that's something that I do in my public work, that I really try to make those safe spaces and allow for different kinds of emotional responses, including sometimes frustration towards environmental matters in general. Then sort of recognizing and validating that can be a way forward in the conversation. Instead of presupposing that everybody should be right away keen about this matter for sure.

Doherty: Sure. When you brought in repression, then that opened up a whole another window around emotions that brought I mean, if, if we could bring Sigmund Freud back, or Melanie Klein, or one of the great psychoanalysts, you know, they would, of course, have a whole very rich take on all of how we feel emotions, what's conscious or unconscious, I'm always pragmatic about this. So it's like, you know, certain things we express, like, we share, certain things we suppress, like, we don't share for various reasons, because I'm not going to talk about this feeling in this particular audience, or in this particular situation, or, “Hey, I'm in a crisis, I can't afford to break down right now I need to keep on my game face and get things done.” So I'm going to suppress this emotion in service of getting things done.

And then of course, the idea of repression, where we shove these under the surface somehow and forget that they're there, or unconsciously channel them, that's a whole another rich area that, you know, some listeners are going to respond to. So that's a whole another, and just broadly, like you say, the therapeutic process, because it's a process, you know, it's like, like anything else these some, like, I've talked about this before. But you know, when I work with people, I say, well, there's, there's both what do you feel? And you can use a wheel for that or whatever? And then what do you want to feel? So there's, there's this kind of going toward, like, What feelings do I want to grow and cultivate? That turns this into a personal growth project. And then of course, from that there are some feelings that are frankly, a stretch. Like I don't know if I'm going to be able to get to, you know, empowerment. That seems like a stretch at a given moment when I'm feeling loss and depression. But I can stretch toward it.

And because feelings are wild, and you know, things happen. And I go to that … I can guarantee if you're depressed, but you went to that climate march and, and you listened to some of those speeches, you might lo and behold, feel empowered. So it happens. So there's those stretch feelings. And then then there's some feelings [that] are really scary, tender feelings that people don't want to go to. And we have to be very respectful of that and kind of kind of sneak up on those feelings and become comfortable. So it's a whole process, right? I guess that's the therapeutic process, whether you're in therapy yourself or, or just your own life, you know, your own daily struggle. So, really rich.

Pihkala: Yeah, I think Thomas that's very helpful for us all and a great, brief definition of suppression and repression. And that's those kinds of things. You know, pumping up the energy in a certain emotion is one option and then sort of pumping it down. I'm not sure if this is the best metaphor in English, but anyway, there's more technical terms, for example, in emotion-focused counseling, which I find very interesting, and that's something I've been trying to learn myself also in relation to emotional energy is that sometimes, you know, consciously sort of increasing it a bit or allowing it to grow a bit more, if the situation so demands, and then sometimes, you know, trying to lessen it often because the situation doesn't allow more of that. And those situations in my life are often related to public facilitation or speaking. And it's terrible if you are having a presentation or workshop about ecoanxiety and then the facilitator breaks down. So that's going to be quite a situation when the group then has to carry the facilitator and that’s human and may happen to certain degrees. But for safety, it's important that there's enough of that. But I wonder whether you, Thomas, how much do you use this with your clients? You know, these skills of sort of bumping up or down the energy of emotions?

Doherty: Oh, yeah. I mean, it's at the heart, I think, of almost any therapeutic work, I mean, in my sort of approach, and the manuscript I'm working on, you know, it's basically chapter two of this manuscript, you know, how to feel or how do you want to feel? The first chapter is how to think, so it's starting to just be aware that we have all these models, and we have different lenses we look through and there's diverse ways to look at the world. I think that's a good place to start. But then yeah, how do you feel? I mean, I've always thought there's three main tasks in environmental work: how do we feel about the situation? How do we describe it, what do we think about it? And what should we do? And so much of our all our education and academia and science and climate change, reports in the news is all about the description and how do we think about it and all the data and all the info. And then of course, what should we do this policy or that policy? But the “how to feel” is always underneath all of that.

And that's why … part of my theory on how why ecoanxiety is so prevalent, because it's bubbling up, because people's feelings aren't really honored. And then we know just in science in general, scientists are taught not to share their personal feelings and policy laws are very dispassionate. Right? That's the ideal being dispassionate. But where those feelings go? So, yeah, so I think it's just huge. And, yeah, sometimes we want to, we want to fake it till we make it and pump up some positive emotions, just like coaching a team of young people in a sport or something like that, or coaching ourselves, running over a hill when we're running our race, or getting through our day. And then sometimes, yeah, we want to take time to just “feel all the feels” like, you know, Britt Wray has a section in her book about, you know, feeling all the feels, all of them, you know. So yeah, so giving permission, giving permission about that.

Where do you think you're going? Where are you going with some of your work? Like, what, what kind of projects are you working on now? Or what's the next step for this for you?

Pihkala: Thanks. Thanks for asking. Since the completion of the process model of ecoanxiety and grief, which we discussed at an earlier episode, I've been working heavily on theories of grief and bereavement, not to be gloomy, but bring out nuances related to how much change there is around us and in us, and the sort of perceived need to be able to name those kinds of nuances. Like you know, changes and losses related to identity and roles, in addition to the very visible changes in our so called natural environments. So that's hopefully going to be finished quite soon. The first quite long, regrettably, again, long article about theories of grief and bereavement as applied to ecological grief. And the sort of practical next step is what I've been drafting was just like a sort of questionnaire or self-reflection sheet about ecological sadness and grief. So if somebody wants to do that kind of work, either as in a work or with others, then there's sort of practical application of, of doing reflection about what things are changing, and that should also include, I think, those kinds of changes which have many sides, there may be both personnel growth and loss at the same time, for example. So those kinds of things. And I'm eagerly awaiting your forthcoming book, Thomas. Also, I know that's a long distance run but it’s in the process.

Doherty: Yeah. And it's, you know, I mean, I shared a milestone, I shared the first chapter with my, you know, my book agent person I'm working with and so that's been a personal milestone for me this week, to keep moving forward, you know, into this process. But you're speaking to a final thing here, I think we can end on, which is, you know, on the emotions, whatever, model you want to use, whether it's a vocabulary list, or [making up ] new words, or the emotions wheel, there's one thing to talk about it from a distance. And it's another thing to, like, if we're like a dart and we throw ourselves at the emotional wheel, we land, boom! in sadness, or, you know, we land in depression, and we, okay, we're sitting in that. And that's a whole, that's a process, that's part of the, you know, we're in that and oh, okay, I have to open myself up to this loss and depression.

And of course, loss is a part of life. So many, many losses related to just general life and letting go of things. And, of course, from a Buddhist perspective, you know, life is suffering, because we're attached, and we have to let go. So just being aware, at any given moment, you're going to be sitting, we're going to be sitting in a in a section, I can also be in a section that's has empathy. Okay, I'm empathizing with myself, and that. So we can, we can kind of move our peg around the wheel. When we're in a slot, we're in a slot and we have to feel that so that's the job, I think. So we can nudge ourselves to sort of different sections, if we want, we will find ourselves in different sections. Is there anything you're looking forward to for the rest of the evening Panu as we and as you wrap up your long day, Panu?

Pihkala: Autumn is coming in Finland, so the sun is already setting. So if there may be a chance to get a bit of sun, sunlight, or when going out. And how is your starting day looking like?

Doherty: Well, yeah, I know, you're really a student of the seasons, and I am as well. And so there's the seasons of emotions. And so yes, I was actually thinking about autumn as well, because we're in early, early autumn coming into October here, and the leaves haven't really changed yet. But the weather has clearly changed. And it's cooler and wetter. And for me personally, that moves me more into the purple part of the [climate emotions] wheel there where I'm more likely to, to naturally feel some loss and melancholy as the year is ending. So yes, but I'm frankly looking forward to after this, I'll be with my therapy training group. And I have people coming in from around the world this season, from India, from Italy, from England, from Hawaii. And so in a few minutes, I'm going to jump in with that group. And they're, you know, they're really interested in this stuff. And we'll get we'll get to talk about this stuff. And it's generally pretty much like this podcast, very uplifting for me. It gives me hope, gratitude, empathy, inspiration, empowerment, interest, it keeps me in that blue positive section of the wheel. So that's all good.

And you know, I have I've spent some time in the overwhelm section this week! My daughter has been home from school because she's been ill and I've been working on my manuscript, you know. So yes, we can get overwhelmed. So listeners, just be aware you're in all these different feelings. Some of you are experts on certain news areas, both as scientists or as humans. So be well and Panu you have a great evening and listeners, take care.

Pihkala: Take care.

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image credit | Benny Hassum

Season 3, Episode 4: An Australian Climate and Emotions Perspective with Dr. Joëlle Gergis

Joëlle Gergis is an award-winning climate scientist and writer from the Australian National University. Joëlle was a lead author on the IPCC 6th Assessment report: Climate Change 2021: The Physical Science Basis. As the southern hemisphere summer approaches, Joëlle Gergis spoke with Panu and Thomas about her most recent book Humanity's Moment: A Climate Scientist's Case for Hope and the unique emotional challenges of confronting the human and wildlife toll of climate disasters in Australia. As Joelle noted, Australia is one of the world’s most vulnerable developed nations in terms of climate disruptions as well as a leader in fossil fuel production. So, Australians’ efforts at coping and making change are important learning for others around the globe.

Links

• Joëlle Gergis
• Humanity's Moment: A Climate Scientist's Case for Hope
• Essay: ‘I feel my heart breaking today’ – a climate scientist’s path through grief towards hope

• Fear and Wonder podcast

• “8 in 10 Australians are concerned about climate change with a clear public expectation of Government action”

• Tara Crandon 2023 Our mood usually lifts in spring. But after early heatwaves and bushfires, this year may be different
• Is this how you feel? Letters from climate scientists
• Lesley Head & Teresa Harada 2017 “Keeping the Heart a Long Way from the Brain: The Emotional Labour of Climate Scientists.”
• See previous CCH episodes with Susanne Moser and Daniella Molnar

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Please support the climate change and happiness podcast see the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to climate change and happiness, our podcast. This is a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and other environmental issues. And as we say, we're all climate change emotions all the time. That's what we're focused on here. Even though people are more open to talk about their feelings and thoughts about climate change, it's still not common to have open conversations about these things, particularly about the emotional level. So it's what we do here. And today we are very honored to have a guest.

Joëlle Gergis: So, I'm Dr. Joëlle Gergis. I'm a climate scientist and writer from the Australian National University.

Doherty: And we've heard of Joelle. I've got a copy of her book here Humanity's Moment and Joelle is, if you're in the know about the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and how this group comes together across the world and meets, and Joelle is one of the scientists that's involved with the IPCC. We'll talk a little bit about her journey and her background. And Joelle is our first guest from Australia. So, this is a great opportunity for us to think about the continent of Australia, and all the unique experiences that are happening for people there. I know we have listeners in Australia, so this will be nice. And Panu do you want to get us started off in our dialogue?

Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Joelle, very pleased to meet you. And there's been very interesting conversations between Australian people around climate emotions and all the strong contradictions around them, also related to governmental policies and physical impacts. And I've personally benefited from quite pioneering work by the Australian Psychological Society and a great organization called Psychology for a Safe Climate. So there's some great material for constructive encounters with climate emotions. And that's something very notable in your work, Joelle. I think that you are so open about speaking of climate emotions, as a scientist, and there's some research going on internationally about the emotions of climate scientists. That's one topic we might touch upon here. But firstly, we'd like to ask you a bit about your journey. How did you become so heavily involved with global climate change and end up being a writer and researcher who is open about various sides of the issue?

Gergis: Yeah, thanks for having me. Firstly, on the podcast, it's a real pleasure to be here. And it's also quite an interesting thing to be the first Australian to speak to you guys. So, I guess as a young person growing up in Australia, you know, we have such a ferocious climate. And I remember a particular time in my childhood in 1994, when there was a really severe bushfire season, and there was ash falling all throughout my neighborhood. There was a thick smoke. And I wondered to myself, well, what is it that makes Australia's climate so erratic and so extreme? And that led me to wanting to study environmental science and climatology at university.

And I guess it's been a 25 year journey, really, for me in terms of teaching, researching and writing about climate change. And then that journey led me eventually to be selected as a lead author on the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's Sixth Assessment Report. And for me, I suppose that was a real turning point in my career, where all of a sudden, I could see what was happening at home in my own country of Australia. And Australia, as you probably know, is often seen on the news in very dramatic ways, whether it's a wildfire or it's a flood or a very severe drought. So, in many ways, Australia is a bit of a poster child for climate change in terms of some of the real world impacts. And we're actually considered the most vulnerable nation in the developed world when it comes to climate change. So, it's a really interesting perspective to be both, you know, researching climate variability and climate change in a country like Australia, but also thinking about different ways of communicating our science.

And so for me, that opportunity to really think about what is it that is getting in the way of emotionally engaging the average person and a topic like climate change, because it can be so overwhelming, and so soul destroying, in many ways for a lot of people, because of the enormity of the challenge we face is huge. And, sometimes people feel very powerless in the face of that. And of course, you would know also in Australia, we're the largest exporter of coal and liquefied natural gas. So, there's been a very entrenched resistance, if you like, to actually implementing climate policy that is meaningful in any sort of scientific terms. But also just thinking about what it is to be, I guess, an Australian at this moment and how we show up on the global stage.

So really, my work has led me deep into the heart of the IPCC. And as I was working on the IPCC, there were all sorts of extreme events unfolding. You might have recalled the "Black Summer" wildfire season that we had in 2019-2020, in that summer period, and that basically saw around 25% of Australia's forests burned in a single bushfire season. In an extreme year, you might get 2%. So to get 25%, it was a global record in terms of the sheer enormity of the blazes. And now the koala is actually considered an endangered species along the east coast of this country. And that's not something I ever thought I'd experienced in my lifetime.

So, as an Australian involved in a United Nations process, I realized I had quite a unique perspective on the climate crisis. And it made me want to write about it. I realized that I could join the dots between the different things that I was saying, and I wanted to help people who don't have a scientific background really follow the conversation to understand the profound moment that we find ourselves in right now.

Doherty: Yeah, I mean, Joelle it is interesting, because for someone like myself in the United States, I see similarities to the US political situation in terms of entrenched fossil fuel interests that are deeply—this is not unique to the US or Australia, either—it's deeply woven into the fabric of society and the economy and people's identities. And then also, yes, Australia being the kind of canary in the coal mine so to speak, even going back to my early environmental work regarding ozone depletion, and chlorofluorocarbons back in the 1990s. You know, one of the things we talk about in our show is environmental identity, our identity in relation to nature in the natural world. And I think the pathway to being a scientist, to really be empirical and really study, is a certain kind of environmental identity [and a] certain set of values. So, I was wondering if you could say a little bit about that. There must have been something that drew you in the science direction, to the measurement, to really understanding, including ancient patterns and things like that. I'm curious about that

Gergis: Yeah, I guess for me, My motivation for being a scientist is driven by my love of the natural world. And, and I guess that extends into understanding it in all of its intricacy. And I guess I really enjoyed and responded to learning about science at university and also throughout high school. And so I guess, for me, that scientific understanding is just another way of knowing and understanding the world. And I was drawn to it because I quite liked the way it could be quantified and measured, and then compared in different parts of the world in a comparable way. So science gives us sort of universal tools that we can use to compare across different regions. And I think that's very powerful. While it is important to have a local subjective understanding of things, I also kind of responded to the idea which is, is embedded in science, which is that it provides us with a global framework to understand the world and I think that's really, really powerful. So for me, I was drawn into wanting to understand science from that empirical perspective. But my motivation for being a scientist comes from a very deep personal place, which is really wanting to protect and understand what it is that we are experiencing right now. So I guess it was sort of the joining of two different worlds for me.

Pihkala: Thanks for sharing all that. In your writings, you're also very open about vulnerability and many people have different kinds of experiences, and sometimes also traumatic ones in our past, and you've been exemplary in being open about the impacts of those kinds of experiences. So that's something I highly appreciate. And in the global networks around climate emotion, or eco emotions -- and that's, of course, something we very often discuss. So how to, on one hand, share our vulnerability and build strength out of inner vulnerability. But then, of course, also to protect people -- that one can't be open about all the things in all places. And, sometimes, we need to have different kinds of protective layers, either social or psychological, or combinations of this. And, as mentioned earlier, you have been very open about various climate emotions you have as a scientist, and since we've been talking about science, could you share a bit about that part of your journey? How was it to start engaging more with emotions as a scientist, because Western science has this history of, of, you know, reason over emotional analysis?

Gergis: Yeah. And I actually think it's a little bit of an outdated idea, because I believe that you can be professional and rational and logical, but still have an emotional response to your work. And as I was working on the IPCC report, there were just so many extreme events playing out in my country that I could no longer ignore the emotional response that was coming up in me, and to pretend like I was cold and detached around that was disingenuous. So for me, I felt I couldn't help it, I had to be real about it. But I don't think that compromises in any way, my ability to be professional.

And so for instance, one example was that we are home to the Great Barrier Reef, and the Great Barrier Reef is the largest living organism on the planet. And since 2015, we've seen 50% of a die-off from repeated mass coral bleaching. So, we're actually seeing large scale ecosystem collapse right now in real time. And we're all bearing witness to this. And for me, that is something that became increasingly hard to not speak out, because as a scientist, I understand the cause of that. And that's the increase in our ocean temperatures. And so for me, it was something that became something I couldn't walk past.

And then I also mentioned the wildfires of 2019 - 2020, where we saw about 3 billion animals either killed or displaced in a single bushfire season. Again, we're talking about extraordinary levels of destruction. And our ecosystems are still recovering from that time and may never recover in some areas. So, in our subtropical rainforest ecosystems, which are World Heritage listed, so they're of universal scientific and cultural value, we were seeing areas that are usually lush and moist areas that are, you know, waterfalls and mosses and ferns, actually ignite, just to give you an idea of how dry and hot it was. So watching the areas that I love disappear before my very eyes, and literally working on the IPCC report, as these events are unfolding, it became basically unbearable, to be a witness and to not say something.

And so that's really where I feel I started to become more vocal as a commentator and started to speak out more, I guess, in a personal way. And because I think a lot of scientists feel afraid of the very thing that you said, Panu, which is that people will consider us to be irrational or unprofessional, or this sort of thing. But, then when you speak to these people, at conferences, over a cup of tea, they'll tell you how they really feel about it. And so, with my writing, I've actually found that I've had quite a few colleagues contact me and say, Thank you. Thank you for actually doing the work that you're doing and being brave enough to share your emotional response because I feel that too.

And you know, maybe it's also a gendered thing in terms of this. Science is very dominated by men. And as women, there's about, for example, in IPCC in the working group I was involved in, about 25% of us were women. So it is a very male dominated area. And I'm not passing judgment around that. All I'm saying is that there are different ways of relating, and I guess women can sometimes be a bit more open about their emotional response.

And so, for me, it feels like a really important part of an authentic conversation that we need to have and that were having anyway behind closed doors, in terms of whether people are going off to see therapists or talking to their friends and colleagues. And the truth is, when you speak to people who are on the front line of say, recording ecological changes in our landscapes, they're coming back from their field trips and weeping in their offices, because they're realizing that they're seeing changes that are a one way street, that they see it, there are some areas that will not recover. And we're seeing that in parts of Australia already right now. So I think I've just shone a light on something that already exists, it's there. And I'm just trying to give some voice to that. And to provide us with a language to be able to speak about it. Again, we're talking about science being this sort of universal language.

But it's also sometimes when we're talking about the realm of emotions, that's usually the realm of, I guess, psychologists, social scientists, people who aren't really involved in the physical sciences. And so I've been very inspired by some of that literature. And also just people I know from those areas who try and think about ways to bridge that gap. Because I feel like it's the missing link, to be honest. Because unless we have an emotional response to the changes that we're seeing in the world, then that's not going to drive any kind of personal action, or inspire anyone to get political or to change their consumer or their voting behavior. And so we have to care about this. And that's so I term it in my book “connecting the head and the heart.” Yeah. So actually having an emotional response to the very real and frightening reality of climate change. And all the statistics that you'll often hear.

Doherty: Yeah, this echoes very strongly what Susanne Moser, one of our guests, talked about. [She is a] pioneering kind of climate communications person and had the same story—that people would come up to her and say, you know, “How do you cope? How do you make it” and basically hearing it from behind the scenes. So, it's really glad that people like you and Susi are able to bear witness and speak out. So you've got this book, and you pulled this together And you took a risk with it. And it's out there in the world. Now, you've been speaking: what's been your journey since then? So this must have been a rite of passage for you. You know, have there been any surprises or any insights as you've shared this message around?

Gergis: To be honest, I've been really blown away by the positive response. And also from people I usually wouldn't expect to hear from. So you mentioned earlier, the Psychology for a Safe Climate Group here in Australia. The founder reached out to me and I actually did an event for them recently, which was very well attended. And it was just really heartening to see a group of professional psychologists wanting to engage in this topic, and ask me questions and try to find a shared understanding of how we move forward. So for me it's just really inspiring to feel like, once we get our professional psychologists and other people who understand, I guess, the human condition, much better than scientists like me -- because as a scientist, my skill runs out pretty quickly at that point. And we need to use the full diversity of our communities and all those different knowledge bases, and sort of rise to the challenge in their collective way. So for me, I've been really thrilled that psychologists have been reaching out to me, which is really fantastic.

But all sorts of people… in my book, I also speak a lot about trying to rehumanize the conversation and I make a special call out to creatives. So the art sector, to really think about ways that they can use their platforms, as musicians, as writers, as you know, visual artists, or filmmakers to try and help people make those emotional connections because sometimes it might be an artwork, a photograph, a song that helps shift someone's idea about something. If you think about the Vietnam War, it was that image of that napalm bombing with the young girl running burnt, that really galvanized public opinion about taking an anti-war stance. And that was a very powerful image. So all of the conversation and words that had been spoken up until that point didn't matter. What mattered was really people having an emotional response to then take to the streets. And that resulted, I guess, in the social license being removed for the continued aggression and all that sort of thing happening.

So, I feel a similar thing in terms of the creative arts sector having a really, really important role to play right now, which is helping people connect with their emotional selves and thinking about ways to help us connect in a deeper way. Because I believe that once we do make that connection and understand that climate change isn't about the numbers on a graph, it's about the people and places we love, and protecting those places, I think everything shifts. And so I think art is really well placed to do that, because art is where we reflect, where we find ourselves, where we make sense of where we've come from. It helps us contextualize our history, our presence. And that's where we go to process. And so I really feel there's a very strong role for the artistic community, alongside the usual suspects of policymakers and all those other people that we already talk about, or renewable energy experts.

But I really wanted to, in this book, open the conversation up to many different types of people. So it isn't the usual suspects having the usual conversation. And you know, talking about renewable energy policy isn't particularly inspiring for a lot of people. It's really important. But people want to talk about cultural aspects of what it is to be human at this moment. And we are holding a global grief collectively right now. And what does that mean? What does that mean to be living through the most profound moment in human history? I think there's endless answers to that question. But these are things that we need to talk about. And we need to talk about them in nuanced ways that bring in lots of different voices to help us understand this moment.

Pihkala: Thanks a lot for that, that's very profound … more and more, my own research work this spring has been orienting around ecological grief and climate grief, continuing some of the earlier work and thinking about local and regional manifestations, the relationship between those and the global dimensions. So I think it's very complicated as you say that, when people encounter local or regional ecological losses, there is a resonance with the global situation.

There is one study about reef grief, as they put it, around the Great Barrier Barrier Ree. But, the role of arts, as you say, I think is very, very profound and, and also, as an effort to engage with complex emotions, like guilt, for example, or various kinds of kinds of sadness. And there's a lot of scholarship in Environmental Humanities and communication about what kinds of images would be useful for different people in different places. And sometimes, guilt inducing images can also be used for not so ethical purposes. And sometimes they can lead people to become more active and it all seems quite complicated, indeed.

But the basic idea of different people working together and the creative arts, that I think is very important, echoes some of our conversations with Daniela Molnar, for example in an earlier episode. But how about yourself? Would you like to share something about the methods you use to cope yourself? I know that that's something people need to develop in order to stay with the trouble and these difficult subjects.

Gergis: Yes, sure. So for me, as I mentioned earlier, my love for the natural world is what drove me to be a scientist. So when everything starts to get very difficult and hard for me, I step back, I try and take time off work, and I go into nature. So whether that's along the coastline where I live, where I've got beautiful access to beautiful beaches and the ocean, that's really a calming place for me. And I also love the subtropical rainforests near where I live. So I try and get out into nature, go camping. And just remember that I'm just another creature on the planet at this particular moment in time. And try and enjoy just being a human in a body. Because sometimes in the work that I do, you can become very cerebral, very locked up in your mind. And I think it's important to physically get back in your body. So for me that is either swimming in the ocean, it's going on a long trek, or some kind of hiking or anything to just remind myself of the fundamentals. That really, that I'm a part of nature, and it's a part of me.

And also, I guess it's also putting myself in the way of beauty and that is going to an art gallery or listening to beautiful music or reading poetry or just literature and reminding myself that humans are really capable of beautiful things as well. And so oftentimes, when we talk about climate change, it's often a very, it can be a dark and doom and gloom conversation and a bit of a degenerative narrative rather than this regenerative moment that we also face, which is an opportunity that is here is that we can finally learn to live sustainably on the planet, if we choose to remove the social license for the continued exploitation of fossil fuels. And that has to be done everywhere, but I do believe that it's happening. It is happening around the world. It's not happening quite fast enough. But, the social movement we need does exist. So whether it's Greta Thunberg, and her school strikers, and the millions of people around the world who care about this. You can't say that it's just an environmental issue for a particular interest group. It's all of humanity.

And this concept of global citizenry is something that I really had the lived experience of when I was working as an IPCC author, whereas literally sitting at the table, and there's someone there from Pakistan and Mexico, and Colombia, and Israel, and France and the US. It was such a diverse group of people. And to be there representing my country of Australia, it was a real privilege, but it's also realizing that people care about this everywhere around the world. And there is a very altruistic element in humanity that exists. Sometimes we can get overly focused on the dark and the negative, but there's also a force that is pushing back against those darker forces. And that is all of those people around the world who have woken up and want to create a better future. And I think when you do connect with that, that becomes inspiring for me. So sometimes I'll find it in literature. Other times I find it in music, I find it in all sorts of different places. But I think I need to remind myself that there's still goodness in humanity.

I sometimes think about my IPCC colleagues or I think about the nurses and doctors in our COVID-19 wards all around the world who were trying to keep society open and people alive. And all the people that go out and fight wildfires in really ferocious conditions. And these are people you know …you can't say there isn't goodness in humanity. It's just that it coexists. The dark and the light coexist. And I guess it's this moment that we find ourselves in where we either choose which side of history you want to be on. And so when I step back, I can see that but when I'm sometimes deep in it, it's hard to see. And so I think perspective really helps. And so for me, it's about sometimes stepping back and thinking about myself as a human in a broader context outside of my professional identity as a scientist.

Doherty: Yeah. So listeners can take this, and this is a theme that has come up before. It's a paradox. Immersing in some of these difficult, troubling issues also brings us together with like-minded people. And it reminds us that we're not alone. And that's what I've heard from other people on the IPCC: that camaraderie and that sense of special global fellowship that comes with this work, I think, is really powerful. If only we could get the public into those rooms temporarily to feel it. I think that would be really neat. It doesn't unfortunately come across in the IPCC reports. What we need is something like a documentarian would do behind the scenes, kind of, you know, a really nice artistic story of that. But it is something for all for listeners to take in. Like, just because you open yourself up to this, there's a lot of unexpected things that will buoy us and strengthen us, that camaraderie and things like that.

And then I just want to do one quick thing. I think a key part of your mission is this idea of, I guess, changing the social license, the term “social license” is probably not something listeners are familiar with. So I have an idea of what you mean, but it might be helpful for you to briefly just define that, because I think part of your mission is, is evolving that or changing that.

Gergis: Yeah, that's a good question. So, I guess the people that we elect to represent us whether it's at the local level, or the state level or the federal level, in some way need to reflect our values. And so for instance, as Australians – I’ll use an Australian example, if we care about the continued destruction of the Great Barrier Reef, then we need to actually say to our politicians and people in power, who have the potential to do something about this, that this is no longer socially acceptable for us. So really, it's really saying that we no longer approve. We can't actually stand back and bear witness to that and be okay with that. So for me, it's really thinking about this sort of collective values. And collectively, whether we vote in or out particular representation at that political level, makes all the difference.

And in Australia, we had our federal election last where we actually had a landslide in terms of a progressive government that basically showed that people want to do things differently. So, although we had been a real outcast in the global community in terms of our very weak Paris Agreement targets and our commitment to reducing our emissions, a lot of Australian said that is not good enough. So that's what I mean when I say social license is basically the green light or not, to allow our politicians to behave in a certain way. And so that's basically how I suppose social tipping points happen.

So when enough of a critical mass actually cares about something you can actually change the course of history in that way. And it turns out, you only really need about 25% of a population to do that. It doesn't need, like 80%, or some other really high number. So when I came across that research, which I do talk about in my book, Humanity’s Moment, it's one of those things that made me feel like this is actually achievable. So once you get your 25%, you get your critical mass, and the rest of the society will go with the progressive element. And so that's true of anything. And it's no, it's not to say that these victories are a done deal, and that they are set in stone. Just like civil rights and gender equality, sometimes it's three steps forward, and two steps back, but we're inching our way towards something that is better than the past. And I think that is true of the sustainability or the climate crisis we find ourselves in right now. It's the same idea that we're going to have imperfect victories along the way, but that shouldn't stop us from disengaging or zoning out and saying, “Well, what I'm doing is not making a difference” or anything like that. Because it's that collective, you know, accumulated impact that will really make a difference. And when we have people standing up all over the world, which we are seeing, then I think that's how the world changes.

And that's why I think that we will look back at the 2020s as a really profound moment in our history, I consider it the most profound moment, because it's really in terms of the carbon budget, we have to reduce emissions by 50% by 2030, to be able to avert the worst aspects of climate change. So what happens now really matters. And so the people alive today are really going to determine the course of the future of humanity. And that's a huge thing to say. But it's also, I hope, a galvanizing thing to think about, because what you do really matters. At this moment, every single person around the world, it really, really matters.

And so from a scientific perspective, what the IPCC is saying is that we want to avert the worst aspects of climate change. And, in fact, we can do it. So I just talked about the 50% reduction, we can do that with existing technologies that exist today and deploy them. And so it's achievable. So when we hear these really negative narratives coming from vested interests, this is where people start to get confused, or they start getting overwhelmed.

And for me, it's one of those things that I really hope that if we start thinking about a more regenerative narrative and a positive frame for the future --that's not to say, it's all going to be fantastic, it's going to get worse before it gets better 100%. But it's still worth fighting for, and there is so much worth saving. And so from my perspective, every fraction of a degree of global warming that we avoid, is really, really vital. And that is really the take home message of the IPCC’s work is that we want to try and minimize the amount of warming to minimize the amount of damage and so it's a profound moment. It's a huge moment.

Doherty: Well said, I feel inspired listening to you! This is why I enjoy the podcast because we have these conversations. I get to meet inspiring people like you too also, it's really great. Well, we're coming to the end of our time. Obviously, we could always do more. But this has been a great introduction into your work. Panu, do you want to think about some closing comments or ideas here?

Pihkala: Yes, warm thanks, Joelle for all that and that points towards many important climate emotions or attitudes and virtues. Moral outrage, for example, something which is sometimes called Climate Anger, but it may not capture the whole breadth of having this sense of injustice and the determination which can come with it. And that's something I see happening in Australia also that people are understandably fed up with certain policies. And so that kind of climate moral outrage seems to be operating and that's very important. Emotional energy as we have been talking about in this podcast also. But once more warm thanks for joining us and all the best for the very complex and multifaceted work you are doing.

Gergis: Thanks very much. It's been my pleasure.

Doherty: Yeah. So the emotions, also elevation, I feel this emotion of elevation. I'm inspired. I mean, I am lucky that I have this podcast and things that I'm doing. So I get some wind in my sails. And I know others are still finding their pathway. But, that's okay. You know, like Joelle says, there are all the answers and all the tools are available. They're here for us. So we're going to wrap it up. We have our lives. It's late evening for me here in Portland. So I'll take care of my daughter and get her ready for school in the morning and all that sort of stuff. Panu, what’s your day look like for you? You've got the early morning.

Pihkala: Yes, this is one reason why we haven't had Australian guests before because the time zones make it slightly tricky. But as with many complex problems, they are not impossible. So now I have the day ahead of me. The kids are leaving for school right now. And I'm going to work with climate emotion research. And how about you Joelle? What's the rest of the day like for you?

Gergis: It's nearly 3 pm here. So I'm finishing up just a little project I was working on. So just some paperwork on that. No, but thanks, guys for making the time to include me in your important ongoing discussion. And it's nice to have an Australian voice. I think sometimes we just hear from the same people. And so thank you for the opportunity.

And this is a little taste of what it's like to try and do an IPCC meeting. So imagine now 15 People from all over the world. So often sometimes it'd be two am for me or six in the morning, and all that sort of stuff. So it's really difficult when we try and do these international collaborations, but I hope it is fruitful and worthwhile.

Doherty: Me too. I think it is. Well, Joelle, keep up your good work. And I wish you best of luck on your book tour and future work and we'll put some links to your writings on our show notes. And you all listeners, take care of yourselves. You can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. You can see all our past episodes. You can support our podcast through our Patreon. And all of you and listeners be well and take care.

The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

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image credit | **Oscar Ävalos**

Season 3, Episode 3: Oppenheimer and Nuclear-Anxiety

Thomas and Panu reflected on the recent Oppenheimer film, and how cold war-era fear and anxiety about global nuclear armageddon compares with contemporary fear and anxiety about the threats global climate change poses to society and the livability on our planet. Thomas spoke to the challenge of weighing the benefits of nuclear power as a strategy to help combat the climate crisis against the environmental dangers, ongoing dangers of nuclear conflict, and the still toxic legacy of radioactive waste from the construction of atomic weapons. Panu reflected on various forms of anxiety and other feelings these dilemmas inspire in us, including the “anxiety of responsibility” we feel about making decisions about them.

Links

• Oppenheimer Christopher Nolan 2023 Universal.
• The Day after Trinity John Else 1981 Oppenheimer documentary
• Atomic Cafe Kevin Rafferty, Jayne Loader and Pierce Rafferty 1982 Cold war newsreel documentary

Trailer and Full Movie * 1950’s Baby Tooth Survey and Early Campaigns to Raise Awareness about Dangers of Over Ground Atomic Bomb Testing in the US * On the History of Nuclear Testing * ‘The Psychic Tollof the Nuclear Age’ Essay by Robert Jay Lifton, The New York Times, (1982, Sept 26) * Robert Jay Lifton on COVID and Death Anxiety * Panu Pihkala 2018‘Death, the Environment, and Theology’. Dialog 57, 287–94

Transcript

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image credit | **Ifrah Akhter**

Season 3, Episode 2: On Walk and Talk Therapy with Jennifer Udler

In a session devoted to the healing aspects of walking outdoors, Thomas and Panu spoke with social worker Jennifer Udler, author of the new book Walk and Talk Therapy: A Clinician’s Guide to Incorporating Movement and Nature into Your Practice. Their discussion touched on the practicalities of walking therapy as a modality, philosophical and transformative aspects of walking in terms of metaphors and pilgrimages, and the recognition that walking opens us both to the wonder of the natural world, and also dark aspects, including lack of safe spaces for some, and a new normal in which we all cannot separate our walking from climate change effects like heat and wildfire smoke. A key takeaway was the importance of developing a consistent relationship with a specific place, across seasons, times and weathers.

Links

• Jennifer Udler
• Walk and Talk Therapy: A Clinician’s Guide to Incorporating Movement and Nature into Your Practice
• On walking in damaged places: Trebbe Johnson Radical Joy for Hard Times
• Erica Berry (2023, March 21) Climate Grief Was Clouding My Time Outside. So I Turned to Ecotherapy
• Jennifer recommends the Facebook group Walking, outdoor therapists

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image credit | Derek Owens

Season 3, Episode 1: Coping with “Unnatural Disasters”

Panu and Thomas offered listeners advice with how to cope with the new class of “unnatural disasters” that have beset the globe in past weeks and months—horrific damage from wildfires that are supercharged or that arise in places we don’t expect them, coping with simultaneous earthquakes and hurricanes—in Greece, Canada, Los Angeles, Lahaina and beyond. Thomas explained key differences in how varied types of disasters are experienced and understood. He reflected on how the loss of a treasured place like Lahaina touches both Hawaiian natives and the many visitors who have had special life experiences there (with echoes of New Orleans and the Katrina disaster). Panu shared insights from his research and the recognition that coping calls for “skills in grief,” and when appropriate, “skills in joy.” Thomas introduced the concept of “disaster subcultures”: recognizing how groups see and react to the same disasters quite differently, for example, government officials, professional first responders, and the general public—and the resulting “disaster diversity” we need to respect. What are the pros and cons of concepts like “Polycrisis” for our coping? Either as a technical description of simultaneous catastrophic events or a blanket term for a sense of global breakdown? Join us and share your thoughts.

Links

• Elizabeth Kolbert on “Unnatural Disasters” (2023, Aug 20, The New Yorker):

“After visiting the wreckage of Lahaina, Hawaii’s governor, Josh Green, called the Maui fires the “largest natural disaster Hawaii has ever experienced.” In fact, the fires would more accurately be labeled an ‘unnatural disaster.’ As David Beilman, a professor of geography and environment at the University of Hawaii at Manoa, recently pointed out, for most of Hawaii’s history fire simply wasn’t part of the islands’ ecology. “This Maui situation is an Anthropocene phenomenon,” he told USA Today.” (2023, Aug 20, The New Yorker)

• Ville Lähde on “Polycrisis” (2023, Aeon)

“There is ‘a’ polycrisis and ‘the’ polycrisis. That is, on the one hand, people are trying to find a clear working definition of a polycrisis, to define its key characteristics, in order to forge a research concept with which to examine a diverse range of concatenations of events . . . On the other hand, ‘polycrisis’ is understood not as a common noun but as a proper noun, denoting this particular stage of world history. There is only one polycrisis: this historical epoch, when humanity has created a world interconnected and interdependent to an unprecedented degree, combining vast material wealth with radical inequality and teetering on the threshold of ecological collapse.”

Transcript

[The Climate Change and Happiness Transcript is on holiday.]

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Panu and Thomas were joined by Leslie Davenport who discussed her 2017 book Emotional Resiliency in the Era of Climate Change, and recent All the Feelings Under the Sun designed for children. Leslie reflected on her background in dance and as a member of an interdisciplinary medical team and how this contributed to her focus on the body and creative visualization in her ecotherapy work.

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In this episode, Thomas and Panu focused on the emotional aspects of travel, particularly air travel, and all the competing thoughts and feelings we have about this. Our journeys to see the world and our far flung loved ones are a central part of our lives. But, in this age of climate crisis, air travel—whether through privilege or as a sacrifice and necessity–opens us up to troubling ethical issues about our own contributions to climate problems and being trapped in an earth-damaging system of inequality and destructive tourism. Panu brought his usual wise perspective on climate emotions. Thomas shared the “UR3OK” model he uses to help people make environmentally-responsible decisions (Understand, Reduce-Reuse-Resist…, Offset, and be Kind to ourselves and others in the process).

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People have many kinds of feelings about climate and ecological crises, and many remain hidden under the surface, either because people are unsure about these or talking about them does not feel safe. In this episode, Thomas and Panu had a dialogue with Renée Lertzman, a pioneer in research and practical work about environmental feelings from a psychoanalytic perspective. Renée told of her work exposing “the myth of apathy” about climate change (people are generally not uncaring or indifferent to this issue, but lack tools to express and people who will take time to listen). Renée also explained her “Three A’s” method (helping people share their anxiety, ambivalence – mixed feelings – and their aspirations about eco and climate issues).

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How does climate change impact family relationships? In this follow-up to their recent talk about couples, Thomas and Panu discussed how expressing feelings about climate change and other environmental problems is intertwined with family dynamics in many ways. Depending on the values and communication style of your family of origin, taking a stand on climate can make you a “hero” or a “black sheep.” Fear of bringing new children into an overheated world also affects those who would be grandparents. Simplistic messages that portray young people as ecologically aware and elders as being in denial are not supported by research. Alarm, concern and caution about global warming are shared by a majority in every generation in the US. While your and my family are different, we are all more together than we think. 

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In this episode we look at the question “What makes for a healthy relationship between children and nature?” and by extension for all of us. To help with this, Panu and Thomas met with Louise Chawla, one of the eminent researchers of environmental psychology and child development in relation to nature. Louise described her own youth and sense of nature being “an eternal world” and how she has listened to children around the world describe their own beliefs and increasingly “fearful imaginings.” She, Panu, and Thomas discussed how to support children, share in their curiosity, and enlist them as collaborators as we all cope with losses and strive to make our lives better.

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In the first of a series of conversations on families and relationships, Thomas and Panu focused on the dynamics of couples relationships in an era of climate crisis. They discussed “eco-couples issues” ranging from small disagreements about daily acts to deal-breaker choices like whether to have children. Panu suggested that these were not simply “lifestyle choices” but rather “life-constituting choices.” Thomas shared his way of combining couples therapy techniques with his expertise about people’s environmental identity and values. As Thomas noted:

“... when we're debating with our significant other about some ecological behavior or political stance, we're really arguing about how we're showing love to ourselves and to the planet… So my love for nature is conflicting with your love for nature in some way. And then it starts to conflict with my love for you and your love for me…” 

Listen to learn tools to maintain a secure connection with your partner while also working through the healthy tensions brought on by being two people trying to live ethically in an often unsustainable world.

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image credit| Elizaveta Dushechkina

Season 2, Episode 20: On Women, Fear and Nature with Erica BerryPanu and Thomas spoke with Erica Berry, author of the recent memoir and natural history Wolfish. Join us as Erica eloquently discusses the relationships between womens’ fears and empowerment and the stories we tell about nature and predators, wild and human. Meta-themes included how we can face our fears and rewire our instincts about global threats like climate change and how we can see other species as beings in their own right, not just as symbols or repositories for our fears and dreams.

Links Erica Berry * Wolfish* excerpts:

+ What Our Fear of Wolves Tells Us About Ourselves
+ ‘A night for growing up’: how a terrifying college ‘prank’ taught me about fear

• Erica Berry (March 21, 2023). Climate Grief Was Clouding My Time Outside. So I Turned to Ecotherapy. [Describing walking therapy sessions with Thomas Doherty.] Outside Magazine Online.
• Erica Berry (September 2020). Here in fire-stricken Oregon, an old way of life is gone. The Guardian.

TranscriptTranscript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Please support the climate change and happiness podcast see the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. The show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change and environmental issues. We talk about our feelings. We talk about our emotions. We talk about our private lives, our relationships, our families. And today, we're very excited to have a guest with us.

Erica Berry: My name is Erica Berry. And I'm a writer and teacher based in my hometown of Portland, Oregon. My first book Wolfish: Wolf self and the Stories We Tell About Fear was recently released in the US and the UK.

Doherty: Yes. And I'm very lucky to share a hometown with Erica. And I've got a chance to meet Erica, and have some really nice conversations, and some walking with her in the forest. (Which recently turned into a story that Erica did for Outside Magazine.) So really glad to have her here. And a lot of neat themes. Erica's writing is - I highly recommend it. And she writes about relationships and gender. And being a woman in the wilderness. And about wolves and all kinds of things that are close to our hearts. And Panu, of course, coming from Finland has a lot of connections with wolves and the wilderness and from the Northern European context. So Panu, do you want to get us started with this conversation today?

Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Erica also, on my behalf, delighted to meet you. And as Thomas hinted, wolves are a hot topic in Finland also. And we have a very limited number of them. And no other predator encounters as much hatred as the wolves do in Finland. And I'm taking part in some research projects where we try to understand this better also from a more humanistic and critical theory viewpoint. And feminist perspectives have been part of them. But before going into that, would you like to share something, Erica about your journey towards this subject matter all together? You know, emotions and our relations with the more than human world?

Berry: Thank you. I think that now I realized that I became sort of interested in wolves, both real and symbolic around the same time. And I think it came from this sort of larger coming of age question of how do - what are the stories we tell about the things that scare us? And how do we live with that uncertainty? And I suppose I was always an anxious child, in a sense. But also one very full of curiosity and wonder. And I think, you know, a young wolf is born, afraid. And I recently was talking to a biologist who said, if a wolf hears something under a tree, they might be afraid, but they'll go investigate it. And I think, you know, I was very lucky to have that sort of childhood where I was, like, pushing out and wandering around in the forest. And my grandparents, both live rurally. And so I spent a lot of time in those spaces. And cared for them sort of deeply. And felt, personally, kind of my own sense of calm or peace that I found there was what was at threat, as sort of wildfires would come or these other sorts of environmental things that then brought me anxiety.

And so, you know, I think this question, when I started thinking about the presence of the wolf, both in our landscape and in our psyches, it felt like a more personal one where I was trying to reconcile a sort of hyper vigilance that had come over me. And I feel like that was both environmental. Quite anxious about climate change. And felt very swamped with a sort of grief about that. And at the same time, in day to day, human interactions, I had had some experiences as a woman that had made me pretty unsure how to move my body through the world. And that sense of uncertainty. I didn't know the limits of it, either in my body or sort of externally. And so became so many of the stories about the wolf, and the sort of idioms about the wolf we've inherited. This idea of the wolf at the door. Or throughout different countries, there's different stories that parents would tell their children that are basically about ‘here's what the wolf has to tell us about how to stay alive.’ How to survive. And I became interested in those stories because I felt so afraid for my life and the people around me. Somewhat irrationally, in a sort of hyper vigilant sense. And, yeah, so I guess anxiety and wonder were sort of two doors that led me to this.

Doherty: “Anxiety and wonder. Two doors.” That's great. Yeah, so many things we could talk about today. Before our conversation formally started, we were brainstorming about all the different directions we can go. And wolves have such a deep, you know, mythical history particularly in northern European, Anglo and Celtic and Finnish cultures and things like that. One of the things that came up with us, Erica, was just and I think you speak of this really eloquently, kind of knowing, I don't know, treading the difference, or knowing the difference between our own personal feelings and these global things. And, you know, that's one of the things I think comes up at ecotherapy. Kind of like the “Capital I” issues. Like the big things we're working on. And the lowercase I [personal] issues, you know. You seem to have insights about that, do you. Would you say a little bit more about that? Like, it's almost like a chicken and egg thing? What came first: my own temperamental anxiety or climate anxiety? Have you thought about that a little bit?

Berry: Yeah, I mean, I think, at some point when this sort of modern conception of what to do, if you're afraid, is to grow out of your fears. That was what I thought. That was, I felt like what the self help books were telling me. But I was more interested in how we grow into those fears. And the idea that we inherit, and are sort of sold these narratives often benefiting someone or an institution or something in power. And often also, there's a cost of carrying those narratives. And so I began to sort of question, you know, thinking of my brain as this vessel that had been filled with things without my sort of wanting to. Growing up you just inherit sort of imbibing these narratives and picking each of them up and sort of questioning them.

And I think, for example, with the wolf, I was thinking, like, when did this idea of the wolf, and this sort of violent man. This metaphor. There's a conflation there. And when did that start. And I sort of was looking linguistically. And you have ancient Norse, Sanskrit, Russian and Iranian. There are words for wolf that are also the words for robber or evil doer. And so you'd have these sorts of legacies, even in the very language that goes back so far. And I became interested then. And, you know, from my personal interaction, I didn't feel afraid of wolves when I was hiking. But I was thinking about the relationship between if I'm a woman walking alone, you know, my grandfather's farm, there has been a cougar, that was you'll sort of sometimes you're walking, and it's the cougar prints are in your prints afterwards. You know, and I was thinking about that feeling of being in a space sort of intimately with a wild predator.

And then my experiences, you know, I'd had an experience on the sidewalk where I'd been grabbed by a stranger, I didn't know. And that rewrote my experience of walking through these sorts of city landscapes. And I, at the same time, was very aware that I'd inherited this sort of Little Red Riding Hood story that told me I would be attacked there. And told me that to be a young woman is to potentially, you know, be prey. And I was really uncomfortable with that narrative. So I feel like at a certain time, I would sort of try to talk myself out of it on a very internal level. But ultimately realized, well, I have to like, take apart the wiring of these social narratives, that both do say, who can be predator, who can be prey. What it means to exist in those spaces. I didn't trust them. And I would say that, you know, this work is a balance of asking yourself these internal questions. When am I holding something? When am I sort of reacting to and trusting those gut instincts? But also felt like my gut instincts were sort of shaped by a world that had a lot of prejudice. And I didn't really trust my gut instincts. And I don't know, I guess that, you know, maybe this comes up in this sort of therapy world, like I felt like when it came to fear, I didn't trust what I should be afraid of. Because the stories that told me seem sort of bunk.

Doherty: Yeah. Well, I'll say one thing, and then I'll turn it over to Panu. But I do think that one thing that does happen in therapy paradoxically is that we learn not to trust our gut. Or we learn to test our gut because we think, you know, the real wisdom is always trust your gut. But if you had some negative wiring through your family, or a lot of people just have no understanding of animals and other species. It's all just abstract because they didn't grow up around wolves or coyotes or anything. And so there's a whole environmental identity piece. So some of our gut instincts are totally wrong. And we have to let them go and rewire. So.

Berry: I'm curious about how to sort of refind that instinct. You know, I feel like going back to some of these sort of archetypal or old stories, I felt like I was trying to excavate, what are my sort of gut self protective instincts that aren't going to be harmful or rooted and misapprehension? I guess that's just a larger, you know, the larger question or work is figuring out those instincts.

Pihkala: Very inspiring and fascinating. And I find this very important, also. The price of curiosity is anxiety. Would be a sort of paraphrasing of some of the work that Joanna Macy and others do at this work that reconnects things. And that was a helpful lesson for me sometimes, you know. Realizing that even though anxiety and worry and fear about what's going on in the world can be painful, it's also a sort of necessity, if you want to keep your sense of curiosity and wonder alive. So just echoing and commenting on some of the things you said quite early. There's a great book by a woman therapist, Miriam Greenspan. We've mentioned this at some very early episode called Healing Through the Dark Emotions: The Wisdom of Grief, Fear, and Despair.

And I find myself thinking a lot about that book when listening to you. And a book about the so-called negative emotions. Which are not negative in the value laden sense. And sometimes one hears phrases like, we should be fearless in the face of the climate crisis, for example. And I partly understand what you mean. But that's not the whole point. We should be courageous. And, you know, learn to feel fear, roughly the right amount at the right place. So, wisdom in fear is one of the themes that Greenspan very eloquently explores. And her book also features much of the discussion about this troubling power dynamics where women and the more than human will often end up suffering from sort of toxic forms of male aggression. So that's something I wanted to bring up.

Berry: Yeah, that's really interesting. And I think about this question of how to do fear, both in myself. And then I'm sort of imagining I don't have children, but I was thinking about the stories I'd inherit as a child. And the children I work with or teacher, if I do have children, like what are the stories that you give them to sort of the right amount of fear to stay alive or just to thrive. But also not to make your world too small, right. And I think that does tie to wolves, right? We need to have some both wolves. But wolves need to feel some fear of humans, just like humans need to feel some fear of wolves. And like that fear can be some respect. And maybe it's not fear of attack, but like where reverence and awe tip into fear. And, you know, I think that's true, too. Socially, I was very resistant to relating to the Little Red Riding Hood narrative growing up as a teenager. Like, I really did not want to be this idea of the victim. And I think only later, when I'd sort of had some of these encounters did I realize that I needed to have some fear, actually. I tried to live completely fearlessly.

And I'd sort of grown up in this very sort of empowered girl power era of the late 90s. And actually, I needed to, like, rewire some of that. And I do think there's a crossover. I mean, I think that the threat that an animal and human poses are totally different. And wolves. You know, I need to say that, like, I don't think. There's a great quote by Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson.

Yeah, it says something like the cruelty that a predator does, it's not cruelty what a predator does to a prey animal, right? It's instinct. And that's why metaphors about wolves will fall flat, right? At the same time, there is something about learning to walk among other bodies, that you don't know what they will do. And you can't anticipate. That is true. We're just animals. And, you know, we're an animal among animals.

And I feel like part of my work into fear has just been thinking about the fear responses on an animal level. And I talked to a biologist who said, you know, fear is not an emotion in my lab, it's a set of responses. Sort of like these dominoes that affect our behavior. And a plant will be a different plant after it experiences chronic stress and an animal will and a person will. And it was sort of helpful for me to rationalize, like, oh, this is on a biological level. I've experienced something. And that's changing my body. And I can talk about that, but I guess the relationship between our sort of biological and psychological conceptions of fear.

Doherty: Yeah. I was just searching for a quote as we were talking that I gathered recently from Pema Chondron: “fear is a natural reaction of moving closer to the truth.” One of her quotes. And so all of this has a meta level of climate change. And societally we're working out. We're dosing our fear so that. We don't even really have to get into that too much, but that's a backdrop for a lot of our talk today is climate change.

Berry: Well and I think realizing that fear. I at some point realized, like, being afraid is being in love with things, right? The more afraid I am, the more I don't want to lose something. I felt most sort of afraid of flying on airplanes, when I was working on this book project. And I really wanted to finish it. And for some reason, that made me like, I can't. I've never really felt afraid of flying. And I felt extra, that sense of protectiveness. And so understanding that there's sort of the opposite on the color wheel of love and fear. And same with grief. And, you know, yeah, that very much ties to climate and sort of investing in the world around you, or recognizing the environmental world is tied to that.

Pihkala: Yeah, great stuff. And also guilt, I think. So it's interesting that many of these very common climate emotions and eco emotions, have their basis in love and care actually. Or our deepest values. You know, wanting to have something very important done. Echoing what you say about finishing the book. I've had the same feeling sometimes when working for a very long time with a book or a long article. And this like errr I need to get this finished. And that ties with sort of very deep themes around what might be called death anxiety or wrestling with knowledge of mortality. And I've noticed over the years also that I don't have very high levels of death anxiety, but when you are in those kinds of situations where you would like something to happen, that's a slight increase in at least my death anxiety. It doesn't limit my everyday functioning, but it speaks I think that this dynamic is here now. That's again, one topic, I think, very closely related to wolves, as you have hinted at yourself.

Berry: When I was doing the eco therapy sessions to write about for the magazine with Thomas, he mentioned, like that idea of playing out sort of this worst case scenario. Or like, sitting with that. And I've thought about that a lot since. And sort of the word fear has roots in the Latin word for ambush. And this idea that we fear the thing that we can't anticipate. And I've thought a lot, you know, like worry becomes a form of a sort of a prayer for something to happen, right? It's a fantasy place in a way. You're living in a projection. And what can sort of be defamed by just living it through. Going there. Imagining it, as you say. Death attacks something. And then sort of sitting with that. And okay, I've played it out. And now maybe I'm sort of free of it. And yeah, I guess I've thought about that in different contexts since our walk.

Doherty: Yeah. As people are listening out there, our listeners, just a lot of things were touching on. I think, just to kind of ground us in a kind of a map of what we're talking about. I mean, some of what we're talking about is just personal, how our nervous systems work, right? So our nervous systems get used to being a certain way. And we get afraid of things. And we want to avoid them. And so what Erica was just talking about is kind of what the therapist would call exposure. You know, graduated exposure, where we kind of bring these things into our minds. And sit with them. And that allows our body to our heart rate to settle on our blood pressure to settle. And we realize oh, okay, I can be with this. So that's a kind of a therapy thing.

And then it's all insight about ourselves. And how we grew up. Oh, this is how I operate in the world. And one of the things that I don't know if that's true for you, Erica, but this was true for me when I was younger was being counterphobic. So I like to purposely do things that are scary. And pushed myself almost just compulsively, you know. And kind of to get away from my family, in a way because my mother was quite fearful of the world. She was not an outdoors person at all. And she almost drowned when she was a teenager in the Niagara River. You know, with her father fishing. And she would always tell us the story of how she almost drowned. In a working class Polish family. And you know, she was all huddled on the bus going home in a blanket. And that was our introduction to water and swimming. You know, so for me, it was always well, I have to jump off a cliff then. And get into the water. And then realizing that's limited too. Because we're kind of white knuckling it. We're not actually really living our lives. We're just pushing ourselves into things.

But anyways, all great insight. And Erica, all your writings really are so insightful. But we got the mind body. We've got therapy. And then this whole environmental identity piece too. Because you grew up, you had some actual familiarity with coyotes and animals. A lot of people, it's totally abstract. So they have no. It's like two cultures. This is a bit off track, but I was watching the anniversary of the Iraq invasion, in the news. And people talking about the US going into Iraq. And just seeing images of these poor National Guard soldiers going around Baghdad. And totally being out of their element. And such a lack of any understanding of that culture. And then of course, if you don't understand something, it's very scary. And then if you have a bunch of firearms, you're going to kill it. And so many people do not understand the culture of wolves. And, you know, whereas native people would coexist. So there's a whole cultural piece about us not really understanding the ways of animals. So cougars or owls are whales they become, oddly, you know, anthropomorphized. But, you know, all the wildlife biology people in the audience are shaking their hands because these people don't understand. So there's a lot of levels, just to kind of situate us in the conversation.

Berry: Yeah. My relatives. My grandfather had a sheep farm. And I think he was also his brother who had been the head of the Sierra Club. A big organization doing a lot of environmental sort of landmark legislation in the 70s when he was the president. And so I sort of inherited this legacy of conservation. And thinking about protecting these wild spaces. And at the same time, because he was taking care of sheep, and sometimes the sheep would get attacked by the coyote. And he would bring them in and have to stitch them up. Or, you know, we'd be feeding a lamb in the bathtub. And, you know, understanding there's a story that he told that I had forgotten where essentially, I had cried wolf on his farm. And I'd said, oh, Grandpa, there's a wolf here. And I'd been quite afraid. And I don't remember this. I was probably three years old. And it was a coyote, but he trapped it. And he could hold somehow, as a, you know, he was a conservationist and a hiker. And yet also on the farm, he was this tender. And he was trapping a coyote. I tried to ask him for more details. And he's passed away now. You know, it was sort of towards the end of his life that he was telling me this story. But he said, You were convinced it was a wolf. And you were afraid. And I thought, it's because I'd heard so many stories about the wolf being the threat. And I loved the lambs in that context.

And, you know, that feeling that even I had “cried wolf.” As someone who was very primed to this. You know, I think we all cry wolf, sometimes when we mean to cry other things, right? Which is, there's an animal here. And it's in a trap. And it's scary. And I'm scared. And I don't know what that experience is as a toddler, right? And I don't know, I think about so many of the wolf stories that I encountered. You know, it's really hard to give language to some of these other emotions. And so we sort of make it animal as a way of trying to make it legible to ourselves. But behind that, you know, it's scarier to peel back like, what else was I seeing? At that moment, I saw an animal that was probably dying. That my grandfather was killing. And that's harder for me to confront, you know, to really think about that is almost more painful.

Pihkala: Yeah, this is [a] profound discussion. I find myself thinking about vulnerability. There's of course much dynamics of control and power. And in these discourses about predators. And how much they can be hated. It's difficult not to see elements of so-called human dominion thinking. And it's a threat when some creature still can show some power. But another theme related to this, which you hinted at, our pre discussion is scapegoating. Which I've been thinking about a lot lately because we've had in Finland, one another media attack on Greta Thunberg. The Swedish young climate activist. And the way she is treated as a prime example of what can be called scapegoat ecology. People trying to escape a difficult, ethical question where they have some complicity in by attacking the messenger. Or then, you know, loading an enormous amount of things and emotions and whatever into one creature.

And that happens, sadly, for Greta. But it often seems to happen for wolves also. And then it's quite clear that people are also projecting perhaps hidden parts of themselves into wolves. This is a very large topic. And I'm really looking forward to reading your book. But I still want to lift this up. And I think that one of the key elements is sorting together with others. Accepting vulnerability. Which is basically what you do when you hike. There is that element, but then if you are real about it, it's much more dangerous to go driving in a car than it is to go walking into the forest, in relation to predators, for example.

Berry: I love that. And I think, you know, it makes me think of a line Thomas from the paper that you've shared. Thomas had worked on a paper about carnivore sort of the actual risks of predation. And saying that, like, in a world, where we are living beside these creatures, we have to take some responsibility. Which is maybe supervising some young children or dogs. Or be sort of mindful when we're walking or biking. And that is implying not that we think we will be attacked, but that we understand that we're sharing the land, right? And having to act in different ways. And I think that we're sort of resistant to that idea in this very anthropomorphic way. Like I am the one in control of this space. I should be able to run or jog or do whatever I want here without this encroachment.

And at the same time, I think, as a woman, I've been doing that for so long. Like, of course, I'm not going to run in certain places. And, you know, it's been interesting with the book out, I get emails from men who say, oh, I've never really thought about this. I hike everywhere. And I love hiking. And I've never thought about the ways that you wouldn't hike somewhere. And I'm thinking like, really? This has always been part of my experience. And so many people, you know, maybe there is a relationship there again, with how do we be mindful of our vulnerability and also the power? You know, I studied mother wolves at one point. Stories about mother wolves. And the idea that they're so fierce. And they can be the fiercest sort of, they have so much to the stakes are high, right? So much to protect. And yet also there's this vulnerability and the ferocity are intertwined in ways that we don't always culturally see, right? We see them as two separate things. But in fact, yeah, there's an intimate link there.

Doherty: Yeah. So many levels of awareness. You know, yeah men just being aware of not even being aware that they are the Alpha predator, typically. So they don't have to worry about anything. And then, even if you're not when you're a young man being killed by an animal's glorious way to die, so why not? There's no loss either way.

But in our last part, Erica, you've hinted at this already with some of the letters you've gotten, but you know, you've been traveling the country, I guess. Sharing this really interesting book, right? Which is going to pull on city people and pull on rural people. And bring in young women, perhaps, that are building their ability to go on a solo hike. And then bringing in ranchers or environmentalists. Or even just city people who are just curious about this. So what are any interesting anecdotes or just insights you've got after doing these public talks and seeing people. I'm curious what people come up to you and say.

Berry: It was really interesting, because I just had a call with one of the ranchers who I talked to in the book. And he left me a message and he said, I'm halfway through your book. And it's very sociological. It's not just about real wolves. Which I sort of tried to explain, but it's a tricky concept of a book to explain to people. And so I called him back later. And he said, you know, I'm thinking about how I was a wolf when I was young. And he's had a livestock producer who's lost almost more livestock than most producers in Oregon to wolves. But what was really catching him was not the sort of the biological wolf, but like his own story. And he started talking about the sort of violence that women in his family had experienced. Processing almost in a sort of therapy-like way with me, on the phone.

And I think that is a sort of, that is a theme right now of people sharing stories of, especially women. Maybe there's this whole gray area of incidents where you don't know if you're technically at risk. I think that is one of the things that I became interested in is, you know, there are these encounters where you know, your life is in danger. But there are other encounters like this one where I had where I was grabbed on the street, where somebody else intervened. and you don't really know what it would have been like if there hadn't been that intervention. And so I didn't know how to narrate it. I didn't totally trust my fear. There were reasons why I felt bad for the man. He was inebriated, he was sort of crying as he was kind of attacking me. And, you know, I didn't have a language for that. And I think those are the moments that other people are also sort of saying, I have all these moments too, that are kind of like this.

And, you know, early on, I'd had a sort of advisor say, well, this moment in the book, in an early draft, is sort of a normal assault. I've thought about those two words together quite a lot since then. And the ways that what becomes normal. What becomes normalized. What sorts of violence become normalized. And so yeah, it's quite interesting to hear. I was troubled by that, of course. And wanted to sort of be able to shine a light on these more quotidian moments of violence or unrest or “unsafeness” that maybe we feel or internalize and carry with us. And so, yeah, a number of people sharing those with me, which I think, you know, is a gift that it's giving them space to think it through. And also, you know, there's a sadness to understanding how many people move through the world with this sort of awareness.

Doherty: Yeah. We're coming toward the end of our time. And I think listeners are taking this in all different directions. We have a number of really juicy, you know, items to put in our show notes. Links to some excerpts from Erica's book and some of her other writings. and some stuff that Panu has. And some things that I have even about just basic research about animal tax. So there's a lot of directions to go with this. And we'll want to keep in touch. Keep in touch Erica. You kind of put yourself as this cultural therapist here, in your book readings here. Yeah, let's wrap it up, Panu, Erica. Where do we want to go as we take it away? Or what messages do you want to leave with the listeners,

Berry: I think one thing that I've just thought about, again, is this idea that fear is not necessarily a bad thing, you know. And I go back to research I did with some ecology of fear biologists who sort of study these landscapes of fear. And the sort of psychological topographies of fear. And I've really started thinking about that in human contexts. And, you know, this idea of moving through the world without fear, again. Go back to maybe what brought me into this is also what brings me out of it. Which is like the relationship between curiosity and inquiry and uncertainty. And those things, you know, as the writing I do is grounded in not knowing. And feeling somewhat provoked often. And that becomes a gateway to something generative.

And so I think the generative impulses behind this. And, at the same time, I'm a much less fearful person after doing this work. And thinking really deeply about the stories I'd inherited about wolves, both real and symbolic. And sort of the legacy and lineage around this predator. Which is code for something else. And so much of the sort of Western culture I'd inherited. I am less afraid. And so I guess I would encourage other people who might be in a similar spot of hypervigilance. Or whatever that I really felt like I was quite steeped in, to think about that idea of sort of like unplugging the wiring. And thinking about how did your parents teach you about fear? What were the stories that you believed about what would happen to your body in the wilderness? Or who you would encounter there. And sort of that has been so generative for me. And ultimately, not a way of making my world smaller, but making it bigger.

Pihkala: Thanks for that, also. This has been a delightful conversation. And it leaves many images and words. I've been thinking and musing about how one level would be a united approach of staying with the animals as symbols in combination with them as real others. Partly unknown others, and also symbols. And I really look forward to thinking more about that when reading your book. And I think this idea of encountering our wolf side. Both light and shadow are terribly important for contemporary times. Most of all, thanks for the great conversation.

Berry: Thank you so much for having me here. It's such a pleasure.

Doherty: Yes. Thank you so much, Erica. I look forward to more connections. And so yes, listeners, we have another episode with Susan Bodner, where she was talking about New York City, her perspective on the outdoors, which will pair well with our conversation. And you can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. And please support us at our Patreon. And all of us, you all and listeners, you all have a good rest of your day. Take care.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

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Season 2, Episode 19: Considering Happiness and What It Should Mean for YouWhat is happiness? And how to live it? These ancient questions are discussed by Thomas and Panu, especially as related to living with the climate and ecological crisis. Listen to a dialog on happiness — as a “wild” emotion, as a result of contact with the natural world, and as a feeling we can only know in the context of the other feelings we experience. Panu and Thomas plumbed the cultural connotations of happiness as a form of luck, an experience of joy or pleasure, and a sense of honor, an outcome of a life well lived. Carpe Diem (Seize the Day!) and learn tools to develop your own potential for happiness at this time.

Links Thomas and Panu referenced the concept of “carpe diem” as showcased in the classic film Dead Poets Society. (Note the phrase is more accurately translated as “plucking the day” evoking plucking and gathering ripening fruits or flowers, and enjoying a moment rooted in the sensory experience of nature.) * To appreciate different conceptions of happiness from around the world, Thomas recommends The Atlas of Happiness* by Helen Russell. * Panu recommends emotion coach Karla McLaren, and her books like The Language of Emotions as well as the work of psychoanalyst Joseph Dodds, such as “Dancing at the end of the world? Psychoanalysis, climate change and joy”

TranscriptTranscript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Please support the climate change and happiness podcast see the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And Panu and I welcome you to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. This is a show for people around the globe, who are thinking and feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change and many other environmental issues. And so here we focus on our emotional responses. Issues like today, our topic of happiness, other issues like eco anxiety, and things that are plaguing people. You can learn about us at climatechangeandhappiness.com and see many early episodes where we talk about various parts of happiness, and various ways to think about being happy. And you can support us at our donation page as well.

And so, going back to our mission, when we created this podcast, it was a couple of things: Panu is a researcher of emotions and environmental emotions. And I'm interested in that, and I've worked in that area [as a psychologist and therapist]. So we really wanted to get into these climate and environmental emotions. And then there's this larger question of what does it mean to be happy? You know, “climate change and happiness?” How do those terms go together? What does it mean to be happy in this modern world? And so it's a question we all have to decide every morning, every day and in our lives. So we wanted to come back to our mission. And we're working on a writing project for The Happiness Encyclopedia [Elgar Encyclopedia on Happiness, Quality of Life and Subjective Well-being; ed. by Roger Fernandez-Urbano & Hilke Brockmann, forthcoming 2023.], that Panu can talk about in a moment. And part of our job is writing about eco anxiety and happiness, which is interesting and challenging. So that's where we're at today, folks. And we're going to try to keep this real to our lives, to our personal lives and your personal life as well. So, think about things in terms of your own life and your own happiness. So Panu, this is a big area. We talk about “the elephant,” the blind men and the elephant and people touching on different parts of a big area. So where in this big elephant of happiness would you like to start?

Pihkala: Hmm, perhaps the trunk or the foot. But yes, the issue of languages is, again, interesting here. And one of our passions in this podcast has been to think about things in different languages. And the word for happiness in [the] Finnish language is onnellisuus. A short form would be onni. Which is etymologically also connected to luck. In some languages, happiness and being lucky are closely connected, and in some other languages not. We don't necessarily think of luck when we think about happiness in Finland and in Finnish, but it's a close connection.

And it's not exactly the same, this Finnish concept of onnellisuus and the English happiness. And many listeners know there's been a very long discussion in North America about pursuing happiness. And how to define happiness and the things around that. And so there's plenty to discuss here. I think linking to the major theme of our podcast, the climate crisis and ecological crisis, is how that challenges some forms of happiness or so called happiness. And then the task of how to live a good life or meaningful life which are important parts of what people are talking about. At least some people when they are talking about happiness. So those things are gonna be on the table today. But what does happiness mean to you, Thomas? How do you see it?

Doherty: That's a great question. I was afraid you were gonna ask me that Panu? Because it's a tough one. You know, I'm just thinking about this idea of luck. And the onni in Finnish. We're kind of students of happiness words. There's a great book out there called The Atlas of Happiness by a writer named Helen Russell. And she went around the world and found different interesting words for happiness in different cultures. And I thought about luck. There's a word, Xingfu, in Chinese. A state of being happy. But it's a combination of luck and having just enough of what you need. [See Xingfu entry in the The Atlas of Happiness by Helen Russell.]

So, I think a lot of cultures have realized that happiness kind of comes and goes, And sometimes there's a luckiness factor to feeling happy. And then, of course, having just enough of what you need is another part of this right? And that's a concept that's shared around the world as well. Lagom, you know, having just enough. You know, one way I approach this, when I'm working with people in myself, I might start with the opposite. What does being not happy look like? And then sometimes that helps me a little bit. You know, what am I missing, and then it gives me a clue to what I need to be happy. And I know, I'm a parent, and this morning, my daughter, it's early morning, here from me. And my 15 year old daughter had a struggling morning to get to school. And get to the bus and feeling overwhelmed about her schoolwork. And she was really not feeling happy. And being distraught, like teenagers will be at times. Or all of us will be at times. And then I as a parent, being the solo parent on the job, was not happy either, because I had to help her. So happiness does include, you know, feeling safe in the moment. I think if we want to keep our happiness in terms of our climate and environmental context, I think there's a peace and happiness about feeling safe or feeling secure. And if we don't have that, sometimes it's really hard to feel happy. To be in the moment enough to enjoy our moments, without this big weight of all these other things over our head. This eco anxiety and “meta-insecurity” that kind of, you know, drains our ability to be happy. So I think that's a place. So it's being in the moment and feeling secure. And that's a place I would start.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks. That's very profound, I think. And reminds me of this movie, The Dead Poets Society (1989), [featuring] Robin Williams, and others. And I haven't thought about that for quite some time, actually. But I remember when we were at the upper levels of comprehensive school, you know, like 13, or 14, me and many of my friends actually liked the movie a lot. We didn't watch these kinds of a bit arty, serious movies very much during then. It was more, you know, action movies, and that's that type of thing. But that movie caught our attention. And I think it succeeded in encountering this basic issue of Carpe Diem. You know, seize the moment. It's closely related to happiness that one would be able to appreciate the everyday moments of existence. And of course, that may not always be joyful, or delightful as an emotional state. But if one is connected to the sort of most meaningful things, then that's related to happiness in the sense of a good life or meaningful life. So some reflections that came to mind when listening to you.

Doherty: Yeah, and it reminds us that art is very important in our happiness. I mean, so the listeners can think about this. I mean, one of our metaphors, again, is the blind man and the elephant. And, you know, with climate change, and all these kinds of big global issues. So people look at different parts of the issue. And they argue about it. But we, you know, don't argue about happiness. That's one takeaway. Think about different ways that people need to be happy. And if someone with you is unhappy, try to be curious about what they need. And it might not be the same thing that you need at the moment. You know, my daughter, you know, my well meaning parenting advice this morning about don't waste your time by being distraught because it actually makes you even more late for your bus. You know, that kind of logical stuff she wasn't open to at the moment. But you know, I needed a hug and needed some actual help. And also just some patience. Just let her be because, again, you know, on really more profound terms with climate change. These issues like the East Palestine train derailment in the US that we talked about in our recent recording, and that's going to come out here soon. There's a lot of thieves that will steal our happiness. trying to steal our happiness.

So we do have to be vigilant. Feelings are wild though. Feelings of happiness will arise. Feelings of, you know, because positive things will happen. Last night before I was going to bed, my window was slightly open because I like some fresh air in the evening and I heard an owl. I thought I heard an owl. And we don't typically have owls around where I live. And then I went and sat by the window and opened the window and listened into the night. And sure enough, there was an owl, you know. And then I double checked it with my bird app on my phone that has bird calls. A merlin in this app, you know, where you can turn it on and it'll listen. And it'll tell you what the bird sound is. It's good for birders that don't know the birds. And sure enough, it confirmed it was a Barred Owl And that was a really unexpected moment of happiness for me. In the evening. Before I went to bed. Just a little connection with the natural world. And Barred Owls are probably migrating here because of the season through our urban neighborhood. So that's wild. You know, that's a wild thing. And I was meeting with a young person yesterday talking about their own climate anxiety. And we were talking about a lot of things. But after a while, she said she felt excited about some of the things we were talking about. And that was a wild feeling we agreed. Because she hadn't prepared to feel excited. So at least these positive feelings will happen if we can stay in the moment and be aware of them. That's the dilemma.

Pihkala: Yeah, I totally, totally agree. And in my Finnish work, part of that was a book about various emotions and feelings that people may experience in relation to ecology [Mieli maassa? Ympäristötunteet, 2019], and environmental issues and other things like that. And then I did a lot of thinking about various nuances of feeling good or feeling happy. And that's, I think, a very important topic. Also, I might leave it to another moment in this episode, because I still want to talk about one thing in the movie. I'm linking to one thing you said also, which is, in this old movie, Dead Poets Society, there's some young man who really would like to be an actor, but his parents definitely don't like the idea. They would like him to continue studying very hard and being able to get a job, which would pay well. And a classic situation where there's lots of dreams by the parents and the younger generation might not agree with all of them.

But it raises up this whole issue of professions and work life and what are we striving for. And that's, of course, very closely connected to the ecological crisis also. Because some things that some people have regarded or learned to regard as signs of happiness and well being, like having a huge amount of riches. Then that's generally speaking, of course, not possible for the whole population of this planet. To put it mildly. And we know that people are different. You know, there are wealthy people who are doing great stuff, ethically speaking, and living a good and meaningful life by working towards the common good. But on average, this structure of “let's all get more material possessions”, so that's detrimental for the happiness of creatures on this planet. So I just wanted to bring that link between happiness and ecological crisis. And partly also eco anxiety or climate anxiety.

Doherty: Yeah, you're right. I mean, there's a political aspect to this, obviously, right? I mean, what drives our happiness and what our policies are about. What people are supposed to be happy about. Potentially a huge impact on the planet and other species. And of course, social justice issues where certain people are subjugated. And so that other people can somehow be happy. And so, yeah, that gets us to the anger, you know. Anger another emotion that comes up here. Which it joins with happiness. If you are from another planet, and you came here and you dropped into us. And try to understand the culture by watching the mainstream media. You would think that happiness was sufficient if you had a new car and a new phone, some fast food and some sort of wealth management program. You know, it's very superficial. And we know that that system is driving the planet into ruin. And everyone knows that. So it's an open secret. So I think there is this, as in many areas, there's a crisis of what it means to be happy. But happiness is much more simple and much more.

You know, we talk about these fancy words. These words that researchers use, like intrinsic versus extrinsic. You know, so intrinsic happiness is things that just mean something to us. Doesn't require possessions. It doesn't require, you know, a lot of money and super wealth. It is just intrinsic things, again, security, safety, family, friends, social support. You know, a lot of people are unhappy these days, because they feel isolated in their eco concerns. Partly why we do this podcast, so people don't feel as isolated. Because when you're lonely, that's another feeling that lives with happiness. And it kind of makes it more difficult to be happy. So yes, each listener can find their own piece that they need to work on. Some people want, you know, to be angry and to work on change to make them happy. It makes them feel good.

Lately, the model that I've been using with helping people with emotions and my own self is, you know, it's not eliminating emotions. It's just adding other emotions to join whatever emotion that we're trying to work with. So if I'm feeling lonely, like I say, you know, if it was a party. And I had a party. And my only guest was loneliness, then that would be everything we would sort of focus on at the party. But if curiosity shows up, you know, that emotion shows up. Then you're lonely, but then you're also curious. Or patience shows up that I also can wait and sort of hold on. Or courage shows up, you know. Or anger shows up and says, well, you shouldn't stand for this. We should do something about this, right? So lonely it is still there. But it's supported by these other emotions. And a lot of people have an insight with that. Because they think they need to, you know, eliminate a bad emotion. And it's impossible. It's natural. And it's normal. And it's healthy to feel lonely if we are isolated. But we can make lonely, less lonely as a feeling if we add other feelings to it. And anyway, that's a metaphor I've been using. So people can think about that with happiness as well. Yeah, our happiness exists, but it feels lonely. And if we can bring in some other emotions, that happiness can be stronger. Does that make sense?

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah. That reminds me of the emotion coach, Karla McLaren’s work. And she uses the metaphor of the village. You know, in every village, there's different kinds of people. There might be quite big differences between them also, but still, they belong there. And then that's a metaphor for various emotions. And also that can be linked with various skills. You know, different persons are good at different things. And in the village of our self, or our psyche, we need all those emotions, guys and gals, so to speak. So that makes us capable of responding to various kinds of situations.

And personally, I'm very much for the view that emotions and feelings also have intrinsic value. So it's not just the instrumental value. There is definitely that also. Sometimes you need anger to fight some injustice, for example. But then, emotions are also related to just being alive. And feeling joy or feeling sadness, that's related to their intrinsic value of being alive, also. So not just the instrumental, emotions have a lot of that intrinsic value, also.

Doherty: Yeah. And so let's do a little teaching for the listeners. So yeah, there's these terms that we use that are really useful. So instrumental value. If I'm following you, I mean, it's a useful value. Like it's instrumental. It's useful. It has a practical use to it. That's what you mean about that, right?

Pihkala: Roughly. Yeah. You know, if you have an ax, that's going to be of great instrumental value if you need to chop some firewood.

Doherty: Yes, yeah. Yeah.

Pihkala: But then, if you have an ax that you have inherited from your great grandfather, it may be that you never chop any wood with that, but it still has great value for you because it's a family artifact.

Doherty: Yeah. And environmental groups and environmentalists think about this because, you know, they think about the instrumental values of things. If people do care about nature and care about it, they're going to change their behavior. And so there's a piece where we harness and use emotions to help make social change. And that gets into the whole idea of advertising and marketing and social marketing. And of course, advertisers who are trying to sell consumer products also try to make this instrumental so they get people to buy things. And all this sort of stuff. So again, we can put on our philosopher hats.

And, you know, people over the millennia have thought about, you know, feeling good in terms of hedonism and just feeling happy in the moment. Kind of more epicurean, kind of just enjoying the beauty of life and food and drink and people and pleasure and the arts and music. And then the more I guess, “eudaimonic” would be the term, which is really a life well lived, where we feel good about our life. We feel when we look back on our life, we feel like we were our best self. We did good work. We helped other people. We lived up to our values, right? That's the other. That's that other piece of happiness, right? And listeners we all struggle with, like, are we living up to our values? Are we being our best self? And that guilt and shame that people have sometimes of not living up to their values really kind of impacts our happiness.

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah. Some people use the word existential guilt. In this sense, you know, it's related to who you are, and the fundamentals of life. And if you feel that you haven't been nearly what you feel you should have been. So that goes near this existential guilt. And in this podcast, we've often talked about how important it is not to let feelings of inadequacy rule our lives. Because these structural problems are bigger than any of us. So it's no use if we just constantly feel bad and inadequate.

But of course, we also need the abilities of guilt and shame so that we can know this, when we are individually or collectively headed in the wrong direction. Or if we have done something which is not as good as it should have been. So it can be a very tricky balance. It's not easy. I totally echo […] . And this idea of living a good and meaningful life. So some people may not even feel it themselves. Like Mother Teresa, for example. The famous helper of poor people. Who apparently quite often felt quite miserable and anxious. But when evaluated from an ethical standpoint, she ended up living a very, very meaningful life. And in the ethical sense, a very good life. So sometimes, it may not even feel good for the person himself or herself. But it may be related to very important things that still are going on.

Doherty: Yeah. That's a really neat point too. So yeah, we talked about we have issues and we have issues. We have our big capital issues we're going to work on in the world. And we have our lowercase I issues. Our feelings. Our baggage. I mean, there's a lot we can talk about here. I mean, we know from the research that people have a sort of a happiness set point. People have a general disposition and temperament. And some people are more naturally upbeat and happier than others. Some people are more melancholic. I tend to be more melancholic myself at times. And that's just part of our personality and our style. We got to make the most of what we have. And then yes, there's this other piece of engaging with these wicked problems in the world. These problems are all a big tangle of problems. Like poverty, like environmental injustice, like climate change, like natural disasters, like the economy, capitalism, corporate propaganda. You know, all these things, this is a big tangle of things. And we can't fix this, like directly. But we can engage with it. And be doing something. I was talking to some people about this the other day. And you know, as long as we're doing something that we feel like we have some expertise in.

I was talking to someone who works in Portland here with the transportation department. But specifically around bike lanes and moving people around. And it's a really tough job in cities because we've got the crush of traffic. And then the problem of unhoused people on the streets and the economy and climate change. But if you're doing something and you have some expertise, you can spend your day working on it. You're engaged. And ultimately it feels good even if you don't solve the problems. You know you've shown up and put a good day's work into it. So we talked about, you know, we need to increase that engagement. So the catchphrase was, increase and make peace. So increase your engagement and make peace with everything that you can't do.

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah. Inner peace. Which may be related to outer peace. And in many cultures, a sense of honor—

Doherty: Honor.

Pihkala: —has been very closely related to views about the good life and meaningful life. And I think that's a very important aspect of our lives in the ecological crisis also. So when we know in our bodies and in our hearts, that we have at least tried to do something with the resources we have. And in the contexts in which we live, which are very different. Some people have much more options than others. So if we are able to be in that position, then we regain or have some sense of honor which is very important for us human beings, I think.

Doherty: It's really great, Panu. Honor. I actually have never. I've never linked honor with this area. I don't think I've ever quite thought about that. I've never seen it also linked anywhere in anything I've written or I've read. So yeah, a sense of honor. That's just something just to let us sit with and do you know, I mean. I feel a sense of honor by talking with you on this podcast. And doing some of the things that I do. So that's an interesting, you know, thing to think about. People talk about, metaphorically, what would I, what would I tell my grandchildren, you know, when they asked me or when people in the future would ask me, what did you do during this time? You know, I think if we say that we took some action, we can have a sense of honor about that. That's really neat. I'm gonna think more about that.

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah. We might come back to that, in some episode. It would be very interesting. And all this is related to what can be called practical eco anxiety. You know, the eco anxiety and the engaged life. This sensitivity to the troubles in the world and the motivation to do something about that. And that's one of the points in our happiness encyclopedia article with Thomas. That eco anxiety can be linked with meaningful life and getting engaged also. And sometimes that can result in so-called positive emotions. There can be a lot of joy with others, when people are working for the common good. That happens a lot. When people start doing things, of course, there may be feelings of disappointment, also heavily.

And it's not just happy, happy, joy, joy. But there is joy also. And lately, some psychologists and researchers have started to lift that theme up, also more. Like Joseph Dodds, for example, in a recent piece (“Dancing at the end of the world?”), where he argues that it might be very important that we also allow ourselves and others to be more often joyful. And that's another theme we have touched upon this podcast. And I think something nice to talk about as we are getting close to the end of this episode. This permission to feel joy (ilolupa as my Finnish concept). And I think that's not the same as happiness. But of course, it's profoundly connected to this ability to feel various emotions in one's life.

Doherty: Yeah, this is all really great. We try to end these episodes on a sort of an uplifting note for the listener for the rest of their day. You know, I think one side of this crisis of happiness is that it's a really creative time. People are being creative about what happiness means. And some of these old definitions are. I mean, in our lives, that's part of our change and our growth. We let go of old definitions of happiness that no longer serve us. That is superficial or immature. Or we've grown out of. And so we've got, you know, writers like Rebecca Solnit, who I like to write about, you know, visions of hope and Paradise built in hell, you know. About, you know, what actually happens when people rise above during disasters and things like that. Joseph Dodds, as you say. Glenn Albrecht has a whole lexicon of climate emotions and states that he's created kind of like a philosophical art gallery of different states and feelings and things like that. Which are inspiring to people. And so over the years, there's been people being creative and holding space for happiness in various ways.

So yeah, so it's again, joy. Our engaged life leads to what I would say moments of joy. It doesn't lead to permanent joy, but it leads to literal genuine moments of joy. So essentially, in our emotional party, our diligence and our patience and our, you know, our fatigue and our weariness, joy shows up to the party from time to time as well. Presence. Happiness. You know, it becomes a guest if we just move forward. So I invite the listeners to think about, you know, that feelings are wild. Just be aware. We all don't like it when an unexpected guest shows up to our party that's grief or despair, or guilt or shame, or embarrassment. But we also need to be aware when special guests come in. Like joy and presence or wonder, awe. All these things as well come around. So that's what I'm thinking about Panu, as I get into my day. And start my day here on a Monday. That's a good way for me to start actually thinking about these positive feelings. How about yourself? Where are you heading for the rest of your evening?

Pihkala: It's Monday evening here. And the boys are starting to return home. So I think one activity will be a very Finnish important thing related to happiness, which is the sauna. So yeah, that's one example of people, you know, very literally, stripping away status and wealth and that sort of thing. So it's just a connection with the steam and the warmth and other people and water.

Doherty: That sounds really nice.

Pihkala: That's gonna be a happy moment this evening.

Doherty: Well, good. You deserve it. You've worked a long day there and been a parent with your boys. And so enjoy. And listeners, you all take care of yourselves. And we will pick it up again next time. And you can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. And please support our websites so we can bring more guests and more good topics to you. Be well.

Pihkala: Take care.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

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Season 2, Episode 18: Holding Space for Climate Emotions and Possibilities with Psychiatrist Janet LewisJoin Panu and Thomas for a thought provoking conversation with Janet Lewis, a founding member of the Climate Psychiatry Alliance. Janet reflected on her experiences of living through disasters and what this has taught her. She explained the therapy concept of “containment”—the ability to experience and hold space for strong emotional expressions in ourselves and others—and how this applies to climate coping and resilience. We have many options for creating a sense of containment: intellectually, emotionally, within supportive relationships and through engaging and taking action. Janet observed that in this time “We are either within or between disasters” and it is important to hold open this creative space. It is the ethical responsibility of those of us not in disaster to work on climate mitigation and adaptation. Janet also spoke of finding solace in the nature of complex systems and possibility of emergence of new forms and ideas.

Links Janet Lewis, Elizabeth Haase, and Alexander Trope (2020). Climate Dialectics in Psychotherapy: Holding Open the Space Between Abyss and Advance. Psychodynamic Psychiatry 48 (3): 271–94. * Beth Mark and Janet Lewis (2020). Group Interventions for Climate Change Distress. Psychiatric Times. * Janet Lewis (2021) Chapter: Global Mental Health, Planetary Health, and the Ethical Co-Benefit (request full text from author) * Jacob Needelman (2023, March 14): Forget Utopia. Ignore Dystopia. Embrace Protopia! New York Times*

TranscriptTranscript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Please support the climate change and happiness podcast see the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. The show for people around the world around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about issues like climate change, and the environmental crisis in nature. And all these things that revolve around these big topics. And, again, we focus on the emotions and our feelings, among other things. And today, we are really excited to have a guest with us.

Janet Lewis: Hi, I'm Janet Lewis. I'm a psychiatrist in central New York State. And I'm a founding member of the Climate Psychiatry Alliance. And I do a lot of teaching about mental health effects of climate change.

Doherty: Yes. And we're so glad to have Janet with us. Janet lives in part of the country in the US near where I grew up in western New York State or central New York State. And like other guests that we've had on this podcast, Janet has been doing this work for a while and is one of the pathfinders, one of the innovators that have helped to build knowledge of climate psychology. Particularly climate therapy and climate psychiatry. So we're really glad to have a discussion. I know Panu and I have both seen Janet's work over the years. And it's really nice to meet someone. And it's really validating for us, I think, to [meet] with [a] kindred spirit. Panu, do you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Yes, warmly welcome Janet. Very pleased to meet you online. And you've been engaged with this topic for a long time. But would you like to share a bit about your background story? So how did you end up becoming a climate aware psychological professional?

Lewis: Well, I know different people come to this in different ways. I'm one of the people who sort of had an awakening in a particular moment. I think I'd been primed for it because I've known some disasters in my life. I've had my house burned down, not from anything climate change related. But I've also been in a hurricane. And I've been in some flooding situations. But I had a moment, when I was at a conference. It was the Integral Theory Conference in California. And that's a group, a movement that's spiritually oriented and nd also very intellectually open. Interested in fitting together as much as possible. In ways of thinking about life and the world. And I was at this conference. There was a lot of talk about climate change. And most of the people of the conference were in a state of a fair amount of equanimity a lot of the time. As I say, it's a sort of spiritually oriented movement. But my suitemate was talking to me in a very agitated way about climate change. And she looked me in the eye, and she said, “the bottom line, Janet, is that we may be able to adapt to two degrees, but right now we're on track for over four degrees. And that will create an earth we would not recognize.”

And I'd heard things like that before, you know, of course. But for some reason, in that moment, the information really penetrated for me. And it was just clear for me right away, okay, this is the most important thing going on. This is what I have to work on. And I, in very short order, knew the sorts of things I was good at and set about finding like minded colleagues. That's how I kind of threw myself to the front, like many others have, of climate mental health. And that experience made me very interested in the whole phenomenon of containment. You know, because what happened for me that the information was able to penetrate? And I could think so clearly about what to do. What allowed that to happen? And I think I was in an extremely containing environment, with, as I say, it being a very open, supportive and also spiritually-oriented conference there. And this whole notion of containment, I find, really, really important in relation to climate change. And I know that this podcast is about emotions. So, intellectualization is my go to defense. So feel free to stop me and get at what the emotions are. But emotionally, there's an emotional valence to clarity that's alivening. And so that's where I was at. And I, as I say, I've been very interested in the topic of containment. It's a very specific term in the psychoanalytic literature.

The theorists [Wilfred] Bion or bye-on, different people who pronounce it differently, talked about it in very specific terms. As what happens between a parent and an infant that helps the infant to be with an experience that's difficult to bear. So the infant will cry. And then the caretaker or parent doesn't just cry back at the infant. Instead, the caretaker takes in the communication and metabolizes it in a sense. And then voluntarily gives something new back, that's tolerable for the infant. And in that way, the infant learns how to metabolize experience in a bearable way themselves. Because they've been given this larger space of the relationship with the parent. So then, in a more general way, containment has to do with all of the things that help us to bear what's difficult to bear. That helps us to get to a larger space. From which we can have perspective and within which we can find meaning. You know, the kind of clarity that, as I say, can be so enlivening. You know, not that I'm there all the time. I mean, like anybody, I cycle through all sorts of feelings in relation to climate change. But this is an important touchstone for me, you know, ways to get to larger space.

Pihkala: Thank you. That's very interesting and profound to hear. And this topic of awakening, or having an epiphany, or conversion moment, it's actually often discussed in these terms. Which are closely related to religion and spirituality, even in environmental research. So there's interesting stuff going on there. And [I'm] very fascinated [by] what you say about containment. But how about you, Thomas? What does this spark in you?

Doherty: No, it's really helpful. And I'm glad, Janet, that you define a term for the listeners. Yeah. So I mean, what I think of containment. I think another way to think of it is holding space. Holding a space for someone, you know, so when our friend tells us a story, or someone's needing help, you know, we hold space for them. We listen. We validate. We make it clear to them that we believe them. We think their concerns are valid. So, you know, in many ways this whole podcast is its role, right? Is a containment, right? That's part of our mission in the podcast is to create a container, a space to talk about these emotions and various climate experiences that just don't typically have a container in people's lives. Because we know that people don't talk about this stuff. And it's politically charged and all this other stuff. Even therapists, of course, will really appreciate this. Particularly therapists that are psychoanalytic or psychodynamic because that's a big part of their work is this kind of understanding how our early experiences, you know, affect our modern life and all this sort of stuff. So, yes, Janet ,a couple of things…

But you personally, I know from talking to you, and knowing you a little bit you personally, you know, suffered through disasters. You know, flooding that destroys your property or losing your home. And you know what it's like to be in shock and bereft in that disaster mental health space where you just need to figure out the next step. And so one of the things I find interesting is another concept that's a little bit more deeper for the listener. But this idea of dialectics, right? One of the therapeutic things is to hold different sides of an issue. And not just collapse it in a simple way. And so, one of the dialectics I think that you talk about in your chapter is that we're kind of either in a disaster or not. Like all of us, either have been in a disaster, will be in a disaster or are not in a disaster. And inside of this continuum that we're in and, you know, not collapsing that, but sort of like, what I understand from your writing is that the people who are not actively in a disaster, it's their job to do some of this climate behavior change and adaptation mitigation to hold space for the people that are literally suffering suffering through the disaster. Who don't have time for that, because they're just surviving. Right. And I don't think you would have come to that without knowing what it's like to be in a disaster.

Lewis: I think you're right. I think you're right. Yeah. And this is, when I think of different forms of containment, thinking about our changed relationship to disaster. For me, this is cognitively contained, you know. Because I think most people have at the back of their minds, well, wait a minute, how on earth are we going to deal with this? So, you know, these increasing disasters? What's going to happen? Well, when we accept that we're in a new relationship with disaster, now, you know, disasters, no longer an outlier event. And none of us are immune from disasters. Although many people are on the frontlines experiencing much more than other people. You know, there are communities that are suffering and are at much greater risk. Butstill, with climate change, no one is immune. And so it makes sense for us to think about, okay, what's this new relationship with disaster.

And as you were saying, Thomas, I think we're either within or between disasters. And that's an important mindset to have. We're either within or between disasters, because that has important implications. The people who are within disasters or in the immediate aftermath of disasters, they're in no position to be working on large programs of mitigation and adaptation, right? If you're wringing muddy water out of your clothes, you're focusing on rebuilding your life. That's what you ought to be doing. So there is also going to be and will be even more, this sort of fluid exchange of roles. Where some people are in disasters or immediate aftermath of disasters, other people are between disasters. And so we know some broad strokes of what the future is going to have to look like in order to work. And one of the broad strokes is this, it's going to have to be more prosocial where the people who are between disasters are helping those who are within disasters. And the people who are between disasters are working on the larger programs of mitigation and adaptation. As I say, this is one broad stroke of what the future needs to look like to work, of course. And another broad stroke has to do with getting to carbon neutrality.

But another thing that's so very cognitively containing for me that I talk a lot about is emergence. You know, that's this characteristic of complex systems. I'm sure many listeners probably have heard about emergence. This characteristic of complex systems where the whole system can get to new ways of operating that can work. But we can't know ahead of time what all the features of those new patterns are going to be. That's part of the character of how complex systems work. So we can know these broad strokes. I think about the patterns in the future that can work. But we can't know for sure exactly what it's gonna look like and how to get there. And that uncertainty has to be accepted.

Pihkala: Yeah, yes. Thanks for opening all that up. And systems thinking has been referred to in this podcast. We haven't gone deep in it. But of course, one of the founding figures of any work on emotions caused by global problems is Joanna Macy. Who was very keen on systems thinking. And there's that legacy around. And you're also referring to this central concept of uncertainty, which is, of course, very intimately linked with anxiety in various ways. And one of the texts of yours that I very much liked was an article about climate dialectics. So would you like to say a bit about that? And perhaps open up the concept of dialectical thinking for the listener?

Lewis: Sure, sure. Well, a characteristic of this complexity, you know, climates a complex system. And now it's completely intertwined with human technology, human systems, human psychology, and human culture. And within complex systems, there's no way to understand everything that's going on. And climate gets called the hyper object. As I'm sure some listeners have heard. Where it's so distributed through space and time, that it's impossible to completely get a grip on it. To completely feel like you understand it. Because we're also inside of it. And with that complexity, as well as with the emotional challenges of climate change being such a threat, the mind naturally kind of divides things up. You know, we can't hold on to all of it at the same time. And no one can know it all at the same time. And so we'll often get presented with things that are seemingly opposed, that are actually both true. Or are both important anyway. Like a sense of hope and a sense of hopelessness.

I mean, it's important not to simplistically side with either one. But instead be willing to explore them both. And discover the space between them. Kind of keep enough space there to be able to reflect. And out of that reflection, new forms of hope have emerged. You know, there's a lot of talk and writing in the climate mental health literature about kinds of hope. Like realistic hope or radical hope that emerge from this grappling with important dialectics. Other important dialectics are individual agency and collective agency or nature as solace and nature as threat. And I mean, also, I think an overarching one that wasn't in that paper, but I'm seeing is even more overarching, has to do with focus on focus on the web of life, The biosphere, and focus on humanity. You know, actually, both are important. Because we're humans, and it has turned out that we're extremely influential. It is important to be able to focus on us too, as well as it is now being recognized that we have to have a focus on the entire web of life. These things are not mutually exclusive. That's what's really important with dialectical thinking is not allowing yourself to think in mutually exclusive terms. But instead, holding both things. And seeing what emerges as both are held.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah. I'm looking back at our podcast episodes. And often what we do in this podcast is we open up this kind of area. And then we hold .You know, one of our first episodes was on holding space. And then we had the episode on cynicism, you know, eco anxiety. So we open up these things. We had an episode on, you know, nature being, like you say, a solace, but also fear and dread that comes now into nature because of the change of seasons and things like that. So, it's a good reminder that we have to stay open to these things. And try to be as big as the world. You know, in the sense of holding a lot of these things. We can't hold everything but we strive for it. I guess. What should people do when they collapse and they can't hold it anymore? Then what happens?

Lewis: Well, okay. Well, first to recognize that's okay. I mean, as I said, you know, I cycle through. I think probably like most people every conceivable sort of feeling and state. And in relating to our realities and in coming more and more to terms with the extent of our realities. You know, in addition to climate change, you know, we're also dealing with what gets called a meta crisis or multi crisis or poly crisis. And, you know, I have a cognitive understanding that this is all sort of one crisis. It's about our current ways of coming up against their limitations. And it's good for us to be recognizing that. But also, it's pretty clear that we're in for a very rocky road as well as having to deal with so much suffering and tragedy. And so it's important that that be validated, you know, and accepted. We have to accept where we are in order to change. This is this sort of paradox in all psychotherapy. Also work at opening the space. You know, so, if someone finds themselves kind of collapsed, okay, what kinds of containment can be brought in? I mean, you mentioned Joanna Macy's work Panu.

And I think one enormous contribution of hers is the sort of narrative containment that she brings in with saying, okay, we're in a huge transition. This is a great turning point. Bringing in the story that someone can identify with. That helps to open the space. Leaning on spiritual practice, you know. As I mentioned earlier, it can open the space. The relationships with other people and with nature, can open up space for us. Being involved “agentically.” Just working on things is a kind of containment too. And then there are these forms of cognitive containment, you know. Knowing that, okay, we're part of this complex system, we can't see it all. But the fact that it's so complex, actually means that no matter what direction someone is coming from, no matter what their particular heartbreaks, or talents, or spheres of influence are, there's a role. There's an important role to be played, you know. Because no one can hold this all ,we're forced to work with each other. I mean, we're actually forced to grow up in a way. Forced to accept uncertainty. Forced to work with other people.

Doherty: Yeah, thanks. Thanks. Let me just add just for the listener, because just make sure. Just to simplify this a little bit, because I want this to come across to people. So this container we can choose different containers, depending on how we're feeling on a given day. What's useful for us? So like, for some people, I need to be able to tell a story, and someone to hear it and share my story. That's how I contain it. For some people, it's, I need to kind of make sense of it. So I need to intellectually get a mental model that helps me to make sense of this. And then there's the relationship. I need to be in a relationship with someone. I can't be isolated, right. So even just relationships of any kind form the container. And then taking some action, whatever, it's small scale, that's that agentic, right. So my action becomes a container, right? And then spiritual container, which is my larger sense of meaning and things bigger than myself, that becomes a container.

So we have essentially several containers that we should have sort of in our tool belt of coping. And then as you say, I think, you know, different things are going to be what an individual most effectively leans on. But yeah, there are all sorts of means of containment. Ways to bear what's difficult to bear. And to have enough space. Containment also provides space, to be able to think clearly about what to do and to make choices.

Doherty: So physical containment, like breathing and relaxing our body. But what are you thinking about, Panu? I know you have a lot of interest in this area.

Pihkala: Yeah, there's a lot here. The spaciousness of uncertainty. For whoever used that phrase. But there's more space there. And of course, the often mentioned Joanna Macy also wrote about this. And that's one possible form. Cognitive reframing. You know, trying to think about things in a new light. So, uncertainty can be very painful, but it also gives more space. But what I'm most thinking of here is the pendulum And these movements. That's closely integrated into the process model of eco anxiety and ecological grief that I've worked a lot on in the previous years. And emphasizing the importance of fluctuation and mood changes. Here, you do also Janet. and I don't think that the movement is very often regular as in the pendulum of a clock. But I like the visual metaphor that there is movement. And that's part of life. And trying to accept the movements instead of going into binary thinking. So I think that's very important for coping also.

Lewis: Yeah, that's so important. You know, we each contain multitudes. You know, we have all these different states of mind. And, I mean, it's sort of like the larger reality, that there's no way to get a completely coherent grip on how it all works. It's just too complex. That's the way it is with the mind too. And so these different states, you know, just like we have to accept that okay, different people are going to be doing different things. And I won't be able to be in touch with all of it. Well, we also have to accept that we have these different states of mind. And, you know, be willing to explore them without feeling as though no, I have to have some overarching thing that works all the time. You know, that's just not the way it is. A part of how we're moving forward is because of all the internal dialectical processes as the different states we're in at different times are kind of in relation to each other. And we figure more out.

Doherty: Yeah. Pendulum. Kind of the waves we talked about. I know in our episode we talk about riding the waves. On some days we're up in terms of inspiration, taking action, being with a group of people that we like. We're contained. Some days were really contained. And we feel good. And we got some wind in our sails. And other days, you know, we got the upside down pyramid. And everything's impinging on us. And we don't have any containers. We feel very small and insecure and inadequate. And so we ride those waves. Yeah.

Lewis: That's to be accepted too.

Doherty: Yeah, there's a great article in just today's New York Times on this idea of a protopia. It's neither a dystopia... It's very fitting for our discussion, because it's neither a utopia where everything is all taken care of, nor is it a dystopia where everything is terrible. A protopia is a place where there's gradual, progressive change, progress, and prototypes. And it's kind of bringing out an idea that was written about over a decade ago in a technology book. But it's neat how some of these ideas come out a little early. And we don't quite see the benefit of these ideas. And then later on, it comes through.

So a lot of this work, even the work that you've written, Janet, like the dialectic stuff. When you wrote it, people were like, oh, this is kind of interesting. You know, but now people really know exactly what you're talking about because they're living it, you know. So it's really neat. I know what I struggle with. And I think a lot of people struggle with and one of the dialectics here is between this kind of ethical, well being that you talk about. This is pro social, and then the kind of let's build the wall. The kind of authoritarianism. This kind of really dark, harsh political movement that's happening around the world as well. I think that's a larger dialectic we're all living through now. And there's no one answer there. But we try to chart our path through that.

Lewis: Right. We have to, as you say, just chart our path through it. At the same time, there is a cognitive container in understanding that in a huge transition like this, there are regressions. There are people doubling down on things that no longer completely serve us. And it can look, you know, in addition to it being so destructive, it can look really absurd. There's a cultural psychiatrist, Charles Johnston, who has written a lot about this. So there can be this larger cognitive container for understanding. Okay, of course, this is happening, right? Of course, this is happening. We're in such a big transition, that there are going to be regressions, breakdowns. And you know, it's incredibly sad. There's suffering. There's tragedy. But it also makes sense, given the extent of the enormous transition that we're in, that's not just about carbon. I mean, it means having to rework so many systems. And as I said, coming to more pro social ways of being. So it's huge.

Doherty: Yeah. And then I'll say one more thing, and I'll leave it to Panu to wrap us up. But, you know, I think it also depends on how close we're looking at the present. Because as we zoom out, we see this larger trend of change. But when we get really close, it's much more erratic. So you know, we're decarbonizing our economy and our world while at the same time now we see they're still, you know, drilling new wells in Alaska. But it's part of this larger trend. And that's, I think, another I'm not sure if it's a dialectic or what it would be, but it's the ability to zoom out to see the larger trend. That's why I think it is intellectually helpful.

Lewis: It's helpful. Without sugarcoating the suffering and the tragedy, that's the part where, you know, we have to work at holding both aspects of the dialectic. And not collapsing into either one.

Pihkala: Sometimes it all comes together. That's another dialectical thought, for example, right? The medieval philosopher Nicholas of Cusa used the image that, you know, a circle and a straight line seem to be completely opposites. But if you zoom in long enough for the … circle, you can actually see a straight line if you go near, near enough to the circle. So that was one way to illustrate this idea that sometimes things that seem opposites to us, can actually be profoundly interlinked. That could lead us to quite complex philosophical discussions about non-duality. And let's not go there at this time. But I've greatly enjoyed talking with you.

Lewis: Another time, Panu!

Pihkala: Exactly, exactly. So it's been a pleasure. And thanks for reminding both us and the listeners of the possible coexistence of many things in life, including both joy and sadness, you know, amidst all these conditions.

Lewis: Yes.

Doherty: Thanks so much, Janet. I think, you know, this episode is going to be great for therapists who really know a lot of the concepts and see how you use these concepts in a climate context. And it's also just good for all of us listeners, to think about these new tools for our own life. So we're going to wrap up. I've got to go into my day. Beginning my day here, which includes more work along these lines. I know Panu, you've got the end of your evening and a full day you've already worked. So you're going to hopefully move towards some time with your family. Janet, what's the rest of your day hold for you?

Lewis: I've got a work afternoon with patients.

Doherty: Okay, so you're going to be in the trenches with people. So I wish you well. And we'd love to chat with you again. I think we could easily go a lot longer. But this is a great start. So you both are well. And listeners you take care of yourselves.

Lewis: Bye bye.

Pihkala: Bye bye. Take care.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com

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image credit | Barış Selcen

Season 2, Episode 17: On Trees and Forest ProtectorsThomas and Panu took time to speak about trees, beings great and small with whom we share the planet, and the disenfranchised grief that we suffer when we witness the loss of trees and forests, in our own neighborhoods and across the world. Join us to listen in on the conversation, and let us know what you feel about this issue.

Links Tree loss in Melbourne Australia “The power of lament: Reckoning with loss in an urban forest”, Phillips, Atchison & Straughan (2023) * Robert Sommer – “Trees and Human Identity” see on p. 79 among many other useful references in Clayton & Opotow (2003) (Eds) , Identity and the Natural Environment * Richard Powers (2023, Feb 2) “Five Years Ago, I Wrote a Fictional Disaster That Is Now Playing Out in Real Time” NY Times * Artist Marina Abramovic on the benefits of hugging trees (video) * Mark Bekoff: Why Trees and People Form Mutually Beneficial Relationships * JRR Tolkien quotes about trees * On the Finnish as Tree People, see books by Ritva Kovalainen & Sanni Seppo (e.g. Metsänhoidollisia toimenpiteitä, 2006; Pohjoistuulen metsä*, 2023), https://www.ritvakovalainen.com/treepeople

TranscriptTranscript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Thomas Doherty: Please support the climate change and happiness podcast see the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

Doherty: Well, hello, I am Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. This is a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change. We focus a lot on our emotional responses to this issue. And our feelings. And all the many things that are connected to this in the world. And one of the beautiful things that's connected to our feelings about nature and the environment, and our environmental identity is another class of beings that we share the planet with trees. Trees.

And today our episode is about trees. And we're going to go in many directions with this. But both Panu and I both know a lot about the research about trees and human health and human identity and mental health. And, of course, I'm in the Pacific Northwest, which has its own unique cultural associations with the big trees of North America. And Panu is in Finland, which, of course, has its own association with northern forests and trees. And you all have your own associations with trees of various kinds. Including trees you know personally. So that's where we're going today. And this episode will touch on many other things that we've talked about over the last year. Panu, do you want to get us started off on this really rich topic?

Pihkala: Yes, greetings from the land of tree people! Because the Finno-Ugric people, of whom the Finns are one part and [others are] Estonians and Hungarians and then several smaller tribes in the current Russian area, they are known for the importance of trees for their whole worldview and ancient religion. And in Finland, the relationship with trees is both profound and complex. Because also, it's a major national industry thing. Things one does with the trees. But then also very locally, in various places, towns and cities, there are these important trees. And sometimes also conflicts about what to do with them. And I know Thomas, that you had a sort of profound experience related to this. So would you like to share a bit about that?

Doherty: Yeah, thanks, Panu. So many incredible directions to go with this topic. Yeah, and I'm unfortunately going to start out with a sad story that really is close to home to get us going. It doesn't limit our discussion today. But it is a sad story to start. So listeners can be prepared for that. But anyway, where I live in the City of Portland in the state of Oregon in the US, you know, and my neighborhood is what's called Northeast Portland. You know, it's a residential neighborhood. But there used to be a big, you know, primeval forest here. Sometimes there are conflicts between large trees and landowners and debates about whether to save trees or not. And we lost a huge tree here in the neighborhood. And it was a long story. And I'm just going to read a paragraph that gives a summary of this. That I shared with people here last December. December 2022. And it'll just give you a sense of the complexity of this issue. So I'll just read what I wrote because it captured my thoughts and feelings on that morning, December 6 2022. You know, I wrote.

I watched a 100+ foot giant sequoia tree being cut down and removed in my neighborhood today, just a block from my house. The tree had grown up close between two residential houses and undermined one of the house's foundations, leaving it derelict. The other homeowners, a couple, waged a long battle to save the tree. They garnered international support through a petition and a GoFundMe drive. Tragically, just as they found a developer to take on the property and guarantee keeping the tree, some unknown person drilled into the tree and poisoned it, mortally wounding the tree and sabotaging the deal. Over the past year, the tree's canopy has browned and died off. The couple was so demoralized that they moved from the state. This tree was about 100 years old and sequoias can live for thousands of years. The industrial scale removal was remarkably efficient, huge pieces of the trunk lowered down by crane and many of the limbs, even the large ones, immediately fed into a wood chipper. There was no neighborhood notice and through the day people stopped to watch and take pictures. I contacted some local news agencies as they previously covered the story, but none arrived as far as I know. It was very hard to concentrate or get any work done today. Such a real world example of disenfranchised loss and grief. I had offered my support and coping tips to the folks that tried to save the tree, and I had donated to the cause. But like others I am sure, I have the question of whether I could have done more.

I share this as a way to bear witness and move against the isolation these events breed. And because I know many of you will understand.

That's my story of the Sequoia. An example that came home to me personally. And just how bizarre and absurd it seemed that I do this environmental work. And I was powerless to really do anything about, you know, to do more with this tree. And then the bystanders syndrome that happens. And then just watching the tree literally from my front porch. I can see the canopy and see it browning and just worrying. And then when I noticed the big crane trucks that morning, I knew that the end had come. So anyway, I share that just to give listeners a sense of how this manifests. And I know listeners have similar stories to this. That's the whole point of our episode that we think of trees, you know, philosophically and intellectually forests. You know, forests being the lungs of the Earth.

But we also know individual trees and places that become part of our environmental identity. Part of our relationships. Our lifeline. So that's where this topic goes. It gets really personal. And that's normal, very normal for people for it to be personal. So what's coming up for you, Panu, as I describe this. I know you've got a lot of different ways that you might think about this as a philosopher and as a researcher, and as a Finn.

Pihkala: Yes, thanks, Thomas for sharing that. And, of course, it evokes sadness and compassion. It's got to do with emotional attachments and values. And partly, I think, with worldviews, also. And I'm a person who is very fond of trees myself. So I can resonate with some examples in personal history also. In the neighborhood, where I'm living in eastern Helsinki, there's an old manor and some of the trees nearby are from that period. So one very conspicuous one is a poplar, which is not a native tree in Finland. At least not for a long time. When there was a warmer period in climate history, then there might have been some; at least there were more oaks during that time. But anyway.

So I also remembered today, when I saw that people are starting to do something with it. So there is a sort of shock element in it. There's lots of elements of a grief process. And there's the dynamics of whether the loss is recognized by others. And whether you have been able to prepare for it. There's this possibility for feelings of helplessness and powerlessness, which you also also described. There's the dynamics around responsibilities, and a sort of negotiation with possible guilt. Which then, again, is a common feature in all kinds of loss and grief processes. It's very human to ask: could I have done something to prevent this? Or could I have done something more? That's, again, very close to what I've been doing in my research work lately. Where I've been looking at the intersections of grief and bereavement theory with ecological emotions. So this touches on many of those things. So I can resonate with this both on a personal level and as a researcher. And I know, Thomas, that you've been thinking about these emotional attachments that people have with trees also. So would you like to say something more about how you see that one?

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's important to, you know, to breeze through this topic. We started out with a really troubling narrative about the loss of the sequoia tree. Which is really sad. And it could bring tears to your eyes to tell these stories. And I've heard many people share similar narratives that were really influential on their life. All around the world. I've heard these stories. We can also just come back and orientate ourselves in a positive way about this. I mean, obviously, our grief and connections with trees are not officially recognized in economics and science and in law. So when we lose these trees, our grief is not recognized officially. That's what that term disenfranchised grief means, right? So it's like, we lose it and it breeds that isolation that often happens. And then we have to band together almost in a revolutionary way to share our grief.

But there's a famous chapter in conservation psychology by the late researcher Robert Summer, Trees and Human Identity. And he just does such a great job describing how the many, many ways that trees influence our human identity across the lifespan from being children to being elders. And, you know, understanding how our relationship with trees influences our physical health, our mental health, and our identity. And all the metaphors that come from trees. The roots of the trees. The branch of the trees. The world's tree. You know, it's woven into religion and philosophy and art. You know, evolutionary theory looks at how, you know, humans are related, you know, to trees. I mean, the human hand is shaped the way it is because it evolved to climb. And, you know, was, so when you grab a branch on a tree, and it feels really natural to hold onto, that's not an accident. That's why our hand is made that way. And when we feel good, in the trees or in a place where we can look from trees, that's woven into our psyches, and our minds and bodies in a very deep way. And so these, like, we talk about different words, like, you know, I think it's called “komorebi” in Japanese. You know, the idea of light filtering through the leaves. Dappling through the tree. So there's different words in different languages that capture trees.

And of course, we have traditions, like forest bathing. You know, in Asian countries where people bathe in the [air and setting of the] forest. And the smells of the forest and the fields of the forest, and the idea of “forest therapy.” Which is a term that would be used in Finland. Not so much in the US. We talk about “wilderness therapy,” or “outdoor therapy.” But in other countries in Europe it would be called forest therapy. You know, and the idea of healing in the forest. So there's a ton of positive things. And I guarantee every one of us. Everyone is listening. When we look at our environmental identity timeline. And all the experiences that we've had, over our lives, regarding nature and the natural world, there are trees involved there. People know what it's like to climb trees as a child and to play in trees. And people cultivate trees in their homes. And they visit trees. They make journeys to see the Redwoods in California. And to see the old trees around the world. So there's just so much positive stuff, too.

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah. Totally resonating with that, also. And I think it's very important to give children the opportunity to climb trees, if only they are up to it in any way. And that's a classic theme in environmental education also, nowadays, because this culture around security has good sides, but also bad sides. And one of the bad sides is that some people think that children shouldn't climb trees anymore, because they may fall from them. There was one study in Britain awhile ago, where they looked at statistics and found out that many more children went to the hospital because they had fallen out of their bed than from trees. So home is a very dangerous place if you put it this way and look at the accidents. But yeah, hopefully, as many people as possible have a safe home. But you know, this statistical point. But even in research on climate emotions, people may start talking about close affinities with trees. And that sort of testifies to these interconnections between topics. And, for me, about the great, both physical and psychological and symbolic significance of trees for people.

And I was very glad to read the article Thomas mentioned. It's a great overview of the many connections that people may have. But there is a link now, even between climate issues and this topic. And of course, if we look at the larger developments, then global warming is changing trees and forests. And for example, in Finland, we've had geographical lines, you know, the most northern places where certain tree species grow. We are very high in the north, actually. And it's just the Gulf Stream coming from the Atlantic, which gives us enough warmth that we can do much more farming than in Alaska even though we are quite close as far north. So the three species are moving more north in Finland. And that's causing ecosystem change. So there's, you know, changes and possible feelings of loss, both in relation to single trees and large scale changes in forests. And, of course, there may be positive developments, also. Having more nice trees through which to experience komorebi. That's also becoming more possible in Finland. But then lots of ecosystem changes have many threatening aspects also, like the spread of certain insects. And so on.

Doherty: Yeah. I mean, again, this is an ecological topic. As we talk about, “when you pick on one thing in the universe you find it hitched to everything else” [John Muir]. And when you pick on the leaf of one tree, one branch, you know, one twig, you find it hitched to so many things. Climate change. Tree cover in neighborhoods. It's, you know, when we talk about our environmental identity. It's intersectional, with all kinds of other forms of identity and with social justice. That's one direction here to go. I mean, climate change is making it really warm, particularly in urban areas, particularly in poor marginalized neighborhoods. So people are much more aware now of the idea of the urban heat effect with heat waves. And how dire it can be in neighborhoods that are denuded of trees. So trees are becoming a social justice issue for neighborhoods. It's a marker of privilege to have trees even.

And it's very, very obvious in my city. My neighborhood is traditionally a lower income neighborhood. And so these trees like Sequoia are very rare. Whereas if you go just just a quarter of a mile south to, you know, another neighborhood that's more privileged, there's these huge, beautiful trees. Maple trees line the avenues. It's very shady. So it's an absolute mark of socio-cultural privilege and social justice trees. Obviously, a rich, long tradition of forest protectors. People trying to save and protect the trees around the world. in all areas, and all countries and all nations. Beginning with, you know, indigenous people that are still innately involved with trees in the forest.

Here in the US, obviously, this brings us up to the recent issue in Atlanta, with the Atlanta Public training facility in the shooting of Manuel Tehran. Tortuguita, The environmental activist, and forest protector who was shot by the Georgia State Patrol. And the controversy around that. So that's a great example where climate change is turning up the volume on this. Turning up the temperature, you could say. Where that forest in Atlanta is being seen not just as a forest to protect, but also part of history. Part of the local history with racism and slavery and policing. And of course, urban heat. And, you know, traditionally black neighborhoods. And trying to protect that forest. So it falls into line with all of these other big issues. There's a logic of appropriateness now. Where it's like, it's not appropriate to do these things. People won't stand for it, you know. And so these projects that would have been pushed through in the past, people are standing against them for a number of reasons. So this gets into literature with books like The Overstory, as you know. And then I know, your favorite and mine. JRR Tolkien has interesting traditions regarding trees. Do you want to say a little bit about your Tolkien connection?

Pihkala: Yes. I'd love to come back to that a bit later. But just staying with the intersectional dimension for a while. So that really seems global, as you say, and so many things converge. Both, you know, trying to keep the rain forests also for climate and carbon reasons. And just the biodiversity dimension. Maybe there's also justice dimensions in many places as you mentioned. There's some very famous cases in Europe, also about trying very courageously to protect old growth forests [for example, in the Hambach forest in Germany]. There's very little of them left in Europe. So, for example, in Finland, if you look at the aerial pictures, you'll see a lot of green. But we don't have many old growth forests anymore. Most of them have been cut down at least once with biodiversity impacts. But there's great people protecting and trying to protect those forests. And there's many very inspiring cases of that.

In literature, Tolkien is one of the world's most famous writers, I think, not the least because of many movies by Peter Jackson and colleagues in the 2000s. So he was a person who was very fond of trees. And one of the great places to check this out if somebody is interested in the book Letters of JRR Tolkien. Meticulously edited by an editor [Humphrey Carpenter], and also with the help of his son [Christopher Tolkien]. And there he is, writing sometimes quite directly, how he also wanted to create fiction where, at least once, the trees could stand up for themselves. So that's one dimension in this Lord of the Rings mythology. But of course, there's a lot more than that to Tolkien's relationship with trees and various kinds of things.

Doherty: Yeah. Many people are aware of emotional connection with the Ents. The species of beings in Middle Earth that kind of resemble trees. They're like moving trees. And that word comes from an old English word for giants. So trees often have this sense of giantess. I mean, there's so many fascinating directions to go with this. One of my early books that I read years ago, Landscape and Memory by historian Simon Schama. It was an environmental history book. [It] talked about the sacred groves of northern Europe, and the Celts. And how churches, you know, were essentially groves. And even the great cathedrals, like the Gothic cathedrals of Notre Dame and Chartres cathedral were actually meant to evoke tall, overarching trees. Which I never realized. And so in terms of my environmental identity as someone from the Northern European cultures, it was really helpful for me to see that connection between trees and religion. Woven into the ancient cultures there. And even just see the environmental justice issues going far back. One of the strategies the Romans had, when they were overtaking the Celtic countries, was to cut down the sacred groves of trees. You know, to take over power from the people.

So that same story, of course, played out in North America. You know, in terms of colonizers taking over people's places. So it's a very fraught issue because I know in the Pacific Northwest, many people, families traditionally, as you know, within Finland as well. Their families grow up working in the forestry industry. In the forest products industry. and it's a huge part of the economy in these places. and all over the Pacific Northwest every town essentially began as a logging town. Everyone. Everyone. It always goes back. The main street Burnside in Portland used to be the skid road where they would slide the logs down from the hills down to the ships, right? So it's woven into our culture here. And so it's another form of disenfranchised grief because we haven't balanced out the need for trees and the need for people's ability to have a livelihood and the loss and grief. So it's kind of a tragic situation that we're still trying to muddle through.

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah. It can be very, very tricky. And some folks in Finland like the photography artists Ritva Kovalainen and Sanni Seppo have done great things in doing books, where they have not only included photos of different forests, but also stories of people who relate to the forest in different ways. So there are nature protectors, but also different kinds of forest owners and to bring out the scope and scale of foreign relations. And that doesn't of course, remove all the tensions but that's one way forward to try to understand a bit more about the various perspectives that people have. That being said, these people have also been very important proponents of making “forest grief,” or whatever one wants to call it, as a publicly recognized thing. And I've also sometimes used my public voice for the same purpose. And even in those cases, where the democratic decision then would be to cut down the tree or the forest, even then the grief and losses should be recognized. And this is a tricky subject also, because one can easily see a possibility for misusing this, you know. Providing therapeutic services to people so that they don't stand up so much for the trees that we are going to lose. But I believe that there might be some balances found. So that's defending moral standing, could be combined with also necessarily sometimes then facing grief together.

Doherty: Yeah. We'll have several really interesting links in this podcast to different stories and films. There's so many to name these trees, Sequoia, Redwood, the Wollemia Pine in Australia. The Baobab in Madagascar. The oaks of Ireland, you know, the Doherty clan, my last name, you know, one origin of the name comes from the oak in Derry there. Thich is the name you know, oak in Celtic language there. So, if listeners have examples of these rituals, please let us know. I really do think it should just be part of our culture to have some rituals. I know native Native people, indigenous people understand this. And do have rituals that are intact for you know, for millennia, 1000s of years.

But we need modern rituals. Because we do need to cut down trees that Sequoia that I mentioned early on, was in a tough spot. Someone could argue that it was dangerous in that position. And it could fall and injure people in a storm. Trees do fall. Ice storms and recent climate change weather patterns have changed what trees are used to experiencing. And so we are getting extreme loss of trees for various reasons because of temperature, because of invasive species, because of ice storms. So we are going to lose trees and it can be dangerous. But it's that our building codes and our urban laws don't recognize primal realities for people's connections with nature. That's the problem. So it isn't that we won't cut down trees ever. I don't think that's what trees want. We can live in connection with trees. And using trees and helping them help us to live it's just really a question of having more of a reality about this that honors our emotional life. So if people have thoughts about this, please let us know.

We've got a nice trend coming with our episodes here. We have an episode coming up regarding wolves. We have episodes around children in nature coming up. So there's a lot of mixed nuanced feelings here. So making room for the sadness and the loss. But also the joy, exhilaration. I can remember even now as a child, the exhilaration of really climbing a tree. Really tall, really getting up there. Farther out of your comfort zone. Way up in a tall tree. Building a treehouse for my daughter which I never had as a child so of course I built her a tree house. And we spent a lot of time with that. And have had images of building another tree house very tall in a tree that I have near my house. And I haven't been able to have the time to finish it. But there's something so beautiful and primal about being in the trees. So yeah, we're almost time to wrap up here Panu, but I'm really glad we were able to finally get to this topic. It makes me feel good to be able to talk about it. You want to lead us out with any other ideas for your evening and my day here?

Pihkala: Yeah, it's been great to talk about trees. And all the importance they have. And we'll share some links to some research also about collective action on the behalf of trees. But also collectively, lamenting or mourning trees. So there's many sides to this but perhaps to bring us to close I'd like to quote John Muir who of course is a famous tree loving person. And in one of his books, he tells of climbing a very tall tree, in quite stormy, windy weather. And then sort of wavering there in the wind to get to the top of the tree. And he has this quote:

“We all travel the Milky Way together, trees and men; but it never occurred to me until this storm-day, while swinging in the wind, that trees are travelers in the ordinary sense. They make many journeys, not extensive ones, it is true; but our own little journeys, away and back again, are only little more than tree-wavings — many of them not so much.”

• from Mountains of California, 1894; by John Muir, naturalist, explorer, and writer (1838-1914)

So this from John Muir in the beginning of the 20th century or the late 19th. And referring of course, to all human beings, not just men.

Doherty: Yeah, beautiful. Just reminds me of the research on people climbing the great Redwood trees. Hyperion. The great Redwood tree in California. And swaying in the branches there. So listeners can really think about this. One of the quotes that I saw in my reading was from an organizer that said, you know, we're not sure if we organize communities to plant trees or plant trees to organize communities. Right? So it's woven in together here. So think about how trees play into your lives. And let us know what this all means for you. And know that you're not alone in your feelings about trees. There are many, many, many, many, many of us around the world that really love trees. And feel nothing wrong with hugging a tree. And breathing into the tree. And really feeling with that being. And the trees are on the move as you know, as Panu says they are migrating slowly.

Anyway, this is Climate Change and Happiness. You can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. See all these episodes and show notes and various things that you can't find on your podcast platform. And you can also support us at our Patreon at climatechangeandhappiness.com. And we really do need some support to keep going and making these episodes. So thank you very much and everyone be well

Pihkala: Take care.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com

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image credit | Jake Ingle

Season 2, Episode 16: Our Emotional Attachment to Nature with Susan BodnarPanu and Thomas spoke with Susan Bodnar, a clinical psychologist who practices in New York City and does teaching and research at Columbia University’s Teachers College. The trio discussed Susan’s earlier pathfinding papers like “Wasted and Bombed; Clinical Enactments of a changing relationship to the Earth.” And also her current studies that link the concept of psychological attachment—long studied in terms of the dynamics of close human relationships—to people’s close connections with natural places. In a stimulating dialog, Susan described important ecological insights she gained observing bears in Alaska, and the social and media phenomena of Flaco the owl living newly wild in New York City. Of her current research, Susan recounted:

And we started with the simplest of questions. “Think of a place, what does it mean to you?” And our first pass through the study, we were amazed at the similarity of the response. People were describing relationships… And then later, when asked, “What does it remind you of?” people said, “mother, father, mentor, best friend, sibling.” Those were the words that people used. “If this place were no longer here, how would you feel?” “Devastated.” …“what else devastates you?” I mean, we know right? The loss of someone you love.

Join us for a validating discussion of emotional attachment to nature and “emotional biodiversity” that you can apply to your own life. And support us at our Patreon.

Links* Susan Bodnar * Bodnar, S. (2008) Wasted and Bombed; Clinical Enactments of a changing relationship to the Earth, Psychoanalytic Dialogues 18 484-513. * Bodnar, S. at al. (2023). The Environment as an Object Relationship: A Two-Part Study * Michiko Kakutani (2023, March 3). Everyone Loves Flaco the Escaped Owl. But Why, Exactly? (See also this story on ethical concerns posed by Flaco’s freedom.) * The Human Access Project Reclaiming connections with the Willamette River

TranscriptTranscript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast, the show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change and other environmental issues. So here, we focus on many things. But really, we try to come back to our emotions and our feelings and our personal experience and our coping. And we're really excited to have a guest with us today.

Susan Bodnar: Hi, I'm Susan Bodnar. And I am a clinical psychologist in full time, private practice here in New York City. And I also am a faculty member at Teachers College, Columbia University, where in addition to teaching a class on psychology, climate, and development, I'm also running a research project on the human relationship to ecosystems.

Doherty: Susan, it's so great to have you. Panu and I have been talking about our episode. We both are aware of you and your work. And you're one of those people that has been thinking about this topic and ahead of the game. And has published in this area around people's connections with nature and the natural world. And it's really exciting the work you've done around people's attachment to place. So we're gonna get into all that kind of stuff today. And listeners, I think you're gonna find this episode really interesting. Panu, you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Susan. Also, for my part. We’ve met a couple of times online, never live. And I've mentioned that when I started doing research on so-called eco anxiety and other difficult emotions, there wasn't much empirical source material, then in the mid 2010's. Your articles were very important for me. And also, they have a depth dimension, which hasn't been very often explored. Namely, how interconnected our inner worlds and the so-called outer world are. So we're gonna talk about that today at some point. But I'd like to start by asking you, could you share something about your own journey to become a clinical psychologist who has such a deep interest in the more than human world? That's not very typical, especially during those times when you went to training. So would you like to share something of your personal journey?

Bodnar: I was born in a very small town in Pennsylvania. In a coal mining area. In I guess would be close to the Poconos. People know that area. And I was influenced by a grandparent generation who were very close to their immigrant identities. And they had not yet really fully adapted to the modern world. And I had a great grandmother who refused to allow electricity into her home. She thought it was evil or something. And everything was done in a wood burning stove. And my grandfather had been a farmer. And my grandmother ultimately was, I think, the first family psychologist. Because when they were no longer able to keep the farm, they went to work at the family market. Like a very small little market for this town of, you know, 1200 people. And she used to listen to people's problems in the checkout. She was the checkout person. And they always did everything outside. Family gatherings were outside. We went for picnics. My grandfather took me deer hunting, which was without a gun, to just observe nature. To observe the deer. He was proud of the land that he lived in. And that was because my father had that tradition as well. And took me camping. And all over the place, the highest peaks. And those experiences were profound, I think.

And when I first started writing about this, it was because I had been in analytic training. I had been in private practice. I felt something was really missing. I was seeing so many people with regulatory disorders, roughly. And I kept saying, why, why, why? Why are there so many of these? And I started to really notice how few people had any kind of relationship to their environments. Physical spaces. And I thought, this is not a coincidence. And so I started to dive into it a little bit more deeply. And then I was in Alaska. In Denali National Park with Ranger Bailey. Ranger Greg Bailey, if you're out there, I will never forget you! Because he gave me an understanding of the dynamics of landscapes that was so incredible. Because he was really trying to talk to me about the human bear ecosystem interface. And just the simple knowledge that you can be safe from bears if you understand how much food is available. To me, it was wow, that's amazing. But it started to make sense that this whole ecology that everything was integrated. And when I started to see that, I could never unsee it. And I took that back to my work. And began to start to understand it.

Doherty: That's really beautiful. That was like an epiphany, it sounds like for you. An ecological epiphany there regarding the bears.

Bodnar: Well, he taught it to me. When he said, look, this is how much food there is. This is how much food a bear needs. And how they behave toward you, as a human is proportional to the availability of that food in a given area. That's what you need to start thinking about when you want to interact with bears. And I thought that was amazing. It was such a simple thing. And it explains so much of what people have been seeing with, you know, bear intrusions. All we have to do is think about that, and you can solve the problem. But it's a thought process we don't really know how to have because this whole relationship to our physical spaces isn't something that's validated as important and meaningful in the culture we're part of.

Doherty: Yeah so it's ecological. A basic ecological intelligence and it's also like relational intelligence. So you have to understand the bear as a being. As a sentient being. And that's the other piece I think you're hinting at, right? Is the lack of the relation. You know, the person to person entity to entity relationship with the bears or the place. Right? That gets us to our attachment stuff. What do you think? Yeah, yeah. What do you think about Panu?

Pihkala: Yeah, I'm very fascinated by the examples of profound moments and dynamics in childhood and youth. We often in this podcast talk about environmental identity. Some people use the ecological identity term. And these foundational influences are, of course, very important for us. And it definitely sounds like there's many of them coming from the place and relatives and the various things you described. And then later on what you say about the profession during the time that you went to training and went to practice. So I guess that's a sort of sign of the times and dynamics that even psychological professionals tend to be so out of touch with the significance of the more than human world.

Doherty: Yeah. And brings us up to today. Susan, you were telling us about your—do you want to tell us a little more about what you're experiencing, where you practice in New York? And also some of this really exciting research on attachment.

Bodnar: So where I practice in New York City, there are lots of things to think about. Let's start with Flaco. The owl, who, in February, somebody vandalized his mesh enclosure at the zoo. He escaped and is now an international star because people are attaching to the story of this bird who had lived in captivity all 13 years of his life. He was a Eurasian eagle owl. Raised in captivity. He escapes. The zoos and other wildlife officials, he'll never survive, they say. They're trying to catch him. Desperately trying to get him back. And he eludes them every time. And then it turns out, he can hunt and he can fly. Where it came from? Where was it inside of him? I don't know, but it emerged. And now he is a free owl. And they've given up trying to capture him. And he now lives as a, you know, social media celebrity. And I'm looking at the narrative about Flaco the owl. And I'm thinking, I think that's how everybody's relating. The story they're telling about the wild inside, I think is really important to our discussion about attachment to places and to object relations. What we carry inside and how it influences us.

And I, because of my work, and I work with people, and I listen to people all the time. I've been hearing this agitation about this disconnect from something very hard to name. But it has to do with authenticity. It has to do with nature. It has to do with real. It has to do with, you know, what feels honest. I want to write about that. But I didn't know how to write about it in a way that it could be heard by people who didn't already agree with what I said.

So I decided to do this research project. And it's a result of the class I teach. One of the classes I teach. And, you know, my goal in life isn't research, in particular. I probably shouldn't say that, but that's not where I live. It's like, I want to do it, because I'm so passionate about these ideas. And I so much want to get them heard and witnessed and all of that. So in a kind of random way, I just started this research project. And all these students showed up to work on it. Like they heard that call that was like the environment. I want to do that. And we started with the simplest of questions. Think of a place, what does it mean to you? And our first pass through the study, we were amazed at the similarity of the response. People were describing relationships. Describe a place, what does it mean to you? They were describing a relationship. And then later, when asked, what does it remind you of, people said, mother, father, mentor, best friend, sibling. Those were the words that people used. If this place were no longer here, how would you feel? Devastated. That's in the paper. You know, this huge percentage of people use that word. Devastated. Cool, what else devastates you? I mean, we know right? The loss of someone you love. So we expanded the study, started doing more surveys. And then we added interviews. Interviewing people.

And what's amazing to me, is as much as what we're finding out. What's being told to us in the surveys in the research, is how eager people are to do the interviews and to take the survey. We're not like a big operation. Right? But people are taking the survey. We don't have anything to offer them. We're not giving the money. Just saying take the survey and do the interview. Huge percentage of people I would say I think we have 60% of people taking the survey want to do an interview because they want to talk about it. They want the chance to talk about what this means to them.

Doherty: And when you say talk about it, you mean they want to talk about their feelings and their relationship with places and nature?

Bodnar: Absolutely. And the stories are. One person talked about the fact that they came from a family where there was just so much pain and substance abuse and domestic violence. And they had nowhere to go but outside. And the outdoors parented them. That there were lessons of living there. They were watching what was happening in the ecosystem around them. They figured out how to grow up. How to live a life. You had to share. It was one thing that she referred to. You had to make space for others. It wasn't always about you. Like little things.

Another person talked about a childhood pond where all the kids used to play and watch fish and frogs and watch the tadpoles become frogs. And it was just a yearly thing. And then one day, they showed up and all the fish were dead. And it was horrifying. It was like traumatic is the word that was used. And they didn't know what had happened. And they were told not to touch the water. The water that they had been playing in. The mud they've been squishing in. Don't touch it. And it turns out that the treatments for the golf course had gotten into the water supply. And it was poisonous. And it was dead. The pond was dead. And this person started to commit acts of sabotage against the golf course. And they still remember the pond.

Pihkala: Thanks for sharing all that. That's so important. And justifies how important places and place relations and entanglements with them are to us. And many people can still recollect things related to their childhood. And, of course, things are changing with urbanization and technology, such that there are some people who already now find it a bit difficult. But luckily, even in cities, you usually have some water spaces and some parks. That all justifies to, I think, the sort of very deep element in our humanity which is connection to the more-than-human world. And what you say about students volunteering, I think that testifies to it. And I'm thinking about this story of Flaco the owl also having a symbolic dimension of, you know, there is a certain wildness, living even in domesticated conditions. But I think this is very profoundly important work that you're doing.

Bodnar: I think, to that point, in our current version of the study, we're trying to select for urban versus rural and suburban. Trying to see how that changes the quality of how they talk about their environments. It's in progress. So I don't know how that will look. I can give you a hint, however, about something else, which is that people who are parents, feel a sense of their relationship and their connection to the environment has changed a lot. Because now they're thinking of the future. They're thinking of their children. I don't know if that's going to hold up. But the early findings are very, very robust. That becoming a parent makes a big difference.

Doherty: Yeah.

Pihkala: As a quick point for that, Thomas. Just today I was having a workshop online with a group of Finns, professionals in religion. And one of them shared that when she had her second child, she actually had to have medication for her eco anxiety. And that was a very brave thing to say, of course. This was a group which had established group dynamics. And I had tried to create a safe space. But I was still very, not totally surprised, but struck by the honesty. So just echoing that I've also heard many still anecdotal things about how parenthood really can activate or reactivate this, our eco-distress. And in some episodes back also testified to this thing. So just wanted to say that before moving on, but please, Thomas, what did you have in mind?

Doherty: Yeah, no, this is such a great conversation. I just want to cycle back to some ideas for our listeners. Because we're using some psychology terms and things just to make sure people are tracking this. Because it is really easy to understand. But, you know, Susan, you're working from this tradition in therapy. Psychoanalytic tradition which really focuses on our inner lives. And sometimes even unconscious parts of our life that we're not really aware of. And this idea of attachment, which is our primary connections with our close people in our life. Our parents. Our significant others. You know, we have this gut level attachment relationship.

And some people are lucky enough to have a nice secure set of relationships with people in the world. And other people have more, you know, avoidant, you know, uneasy relationships. And so that's just something for listeners to realize. That's what we're talking about here. And, you know, object relations are the internal parents and the internal people that we have in our psyche that we carry with us. A lot of which, hopefully, are quite positive. But we can also have conflicts as well. Right?

Bodnar: Yeah, the important thing is that it's a relationship. It's not always positive. And there can be, I think, one person in the research who talked about this really remote cabin that their parents used to take them to in Minnesota. It was literally in the middle of nowhere. And they had no plumbing or electricity, or anything. It was just a bare bones cabin. And they used to greet those trips with a mixture of absolute excitement and terror and panic. Because every time they went there, it meant letting go of everything that was familiar. And didn't always feel good about them. You know, the wilderness is scary.

Doherty: Yeah.

Bodnar: When we took our kids to Humpy Creek, and there was, you know, brown bear scat everywhere. And the salmon were running upstream. It was terrifying.

Doherty: Yeah. So anyway, what we're doing is really kind of revolutionary. Because traditionally in therapy, people talk about all this attachment. And, you know, these internalized presences. Purely in an interpersonal realm in terms of our family. And so what we're talking about, and what Susan is doing is really, you know, bringing this out and saying we have the same kind of attachments. This gut level unconscious attachment with the place where we grew up. With these environments. And then that leads to we've mentioned regulatory disorders or regulations. So we regulate our emotions. Yeah. I just want to make sure the listeners because this is so rich. I want to unpack this. So because they know what we're talking about here. Because it's a takeaway. You know, so if I'm good with my attachments, and I can work those. Then I can kind of regulate my emotions. And my attachments can help me to regulate my emotions and be a healthy person.

And so all we're doing is saying, and I think the listeners get this, I get this totally. I can tell my story of where I grew up in Buffalo, New York, and all this sort of stuff. But you know, our attachments are not just people. They're places. They're animals. They're the ground. They're the land. And climate change. And environmental issues. The issues in East Palestine, for example, with the train derailment are activating these deep connections. These deep inner attachments are bringing it up. So I just want to make sure that we have that clear for the listener.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks, Thomas. That's very important.

Bodnar: I will tell you, when my kids were first born, they discovered the moon here in New York City. And they became obsessed. We had to see the moon every single night. It's life changing. I didn't even know where to find the moon. I took them out like snuggly in a stroller, and literally asked people on the street, do you see the moon in the sky? People were looking like what? Who is this crazy person? But it was really tapping into how children view the world. What they know is the moon. Animals. Moon. Flowers. Tadpoles. That's their world. And when you start to go inside their world with them and you actually validate it and strengthen it and give it power. It's going to change you as an adult.

Doherty: Yeah, healthy emotional experiences that parents do that promote this kind of attachment, you know, healthy attachment. So as we talk and where I'm going with this, my own work is that, you know, some people are lucky enough to have double attachment. They're securely attached in general in their life. And they also have healthy relationships to places, but we can have variations of attachments. And that's where it gets really interesting. We can be ambivalent. I know, you know, a lot of people are ambivalent about their attachments to places because of these losses and some of the things that you've talked about. And so the juicy question is how does that resonate with your attachments to other people?

Bodnar: Yeah, I mean, one of the things that has also come up in the research is a woman from Albania. Tearfully discussed the coast where she lived, as she watched it transform into a hotel after hotel after hotel after hotel with the beachfront being given over to commercial enterprises. It broke her heart.

A gentleman who was at the time about 60 something spontaneously wasn't part of the research, became tearful, when he went to visit childhood home. And found out that the field where he used to play was now turned into sort of like a McMansion village. I've heard in the research, people describe how violated. Word they used, violated. They felt when places that had been natural, became converted into malls. Feeling that in a way, told the story of our modern world. Taking these beautiful natural places and chopping them down, to make stores so you could buy things that in the end, were sometimes an attempt to get you back to where you would have been if you've been able to just be in that natural place.

Pihkala: Yeah, that's a great quote from Susan's 2008 article “Wasted and Bombed: Clinical Enactments of a Changing Relationship to the Earth”. I warmly recommend it for many reasons. But this line from the sixty year old man: “my personality is a mall plastered over a wildlife sanctuary”. This reminds me of many things. Also, Terrence Malick’s movies, which are a complex thing. But that's one movie maker who is doing movies so that he is showing out the scenes, which are actually the inner landscapes of the characters. And then that doesn't always give you much [box office] revenue, because it may be that these movies are a bit difficult for people to be able to get [a sense of]. But just pointing out this theme of how we intuitively see the landscapes of our psyches, and what's the relationship between buildings and so-called natural things there.

This is so juicy that I would warmly recommend that we try to find a time to do a second episode where we get deeper to these kinds of things. And there would be so much to discuss here. The sort of disappointments and devastating experiences we have touched upon in several episodes. Sherry Weber Nicholson's book was a very important early take on this. And then some later work like Glenn Albrecht's concepts of solastalgia can be related to this. But also to sort of repressed or suppressed experiences of being so shaken inside that it's difficult to get forward. But also, there is this option of building more ecological inner landscapes again together with what we do in the outer world. And perhaps in an effort to bring us towards these kinds of ecological reconstruction I'd like to ask you two, that does this resonate with you? This sort of idea of simultaneously trying to enrich the biodiversity of both the inner and the outer landscape?

Bodnar: Yes. And I will say that when we validate experience. Even an experience that's painful, you populate consciousness. You know, when a person's sadness or a person's joy or a person's questioning or a person's anything. Grief, envy, admiration. When that's allowed to exist internally, it fertilizes. It creates a kind of emotional biodiversity. If a person has emotional biodiversity, they will, this is just my idea, but I think they will start to demand it from their places.

Doherty: That's a lovely term. See that's where the creative comes in. As we were imagining earlier, before we started recording, You know, emotional biodiversity. What a lovely term to come out of this. But yeah, I think Panu, you're totally onto something. In Portland here, like many places, we, you know, we're a city that is around a river. The Willamette River. It's been why the city is here, obviously, is this river. But for many, many years, the Willamette River was really polluted. And, you know, we as a city until the 1950s, just dumped all the sewage into the river. And there used to be factories. So the city actually lived away from the river. And, you know, people grew up here, we're taught never to go in the river. There were Superfund sites and World War Two shipbuilding. And, you know, chemicals and various things like a lot of places.

But there's been a movement in the last decade. Human Access Project. A program really because the river is cleaner now. And it has been cleaned up over the years. And the Human Access Project has sponsored over the years events where people swim and float. And they have a float in the river every year. And it's essentially taught people that the water is safe. And that you can go into the water. And they have people swimming in the river. So it is a rejuvenation, recovery or restoration. So I think it is quite possible to think on these multiple levels.

Bodnar: I'm so glad that that's happening. And to see those kinds of projects everywhere. It's tender that we have to teach people that water is safe. But yes, let's teach people that water is safe. And that air is safe. And that the ground you walk on is full of nutrients. Like let's believe that and let's teach people that. I mean, I think you know, one of the things I'm really learning a lot about doing this special issue on eco therapy for the journal eco psychology. Really recognizing the powerful role that an ecologically integrated psychotherapy can have not just for individuals, but certainly for individuals. But for communities, for cultures. And really trying to understand I feel a need to say this all the time and try to find a way to write about this.

This understanding has been with native and indigenous peoples of different kinds and in different ways forever. This is not actually news, but it's just news to us. And I always feel a need to acknowledge that we took a very powerful set of understandings away from many different peoples invalidating their truth. Only now to come back to it as though, “Oh boy, look what we found out.” And I'm glad we are finding it out. And I sit as a, you know, white person, female person struggling with this. I'm no expert. But my heart is wide open. And putting down, you know, taking away one's ego. And letting oneself be a listener to history. To others. To children. To people who are coming to do our research. To my students who want to do it. Everybody needs to be in the conversation together. Even corporate America. You know, it's time to stop separating our voices. But I like to bring them together. So that we can make people know that water is safe and air is safe. And that is not only safe, but that there's information and knowledge and powerful potential for connection to self and other animals and environment all of which can help us build a better world. And sort of hold it so it doesn't implode itself, you know.

Doherty: It's beautifully said. We definitely as we always say we could keep talking. And when we think about bringing you back with more here because this is a thread we're gonna keep following in our podcast as we go forward here.

Bodnar: But it's great to talk to both of you. It's not exactly like there's opportunities everywhere to have these conversations. Right? It's a rare chance to be able to sit down and talk about this and not feel self-conscious. And I'm so grateful that you're doing this podcast because I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling lonely with these ideas. And you're creating community. And when there's community, it's shared. And when it's shared, it's strong. So thank you.

Doherty: You're welcome. I agree. You know, the therapist creates the therapy they need for themselves, right? Yes. So thanks. Panu, what's your evening like here? Where are you heading for the rest of your day?

Pihkala: Well, you know, typical Finnish winter evening. It's dark already. But luckily, we have snow. That's yet another topic we could talk about. And I know, Susan, you've been working with snow and lack of snow also. But now we have it. And we are glad about it. And we don't worry about the lack of it. So that's one thing is trying to both have a long term perspective and to live in the moment. But thanks a lot for these very broad ranging discussions you brought to the space, Susan. And this great inclusive vision, including also the decolonial elements that you shared at the end. So this has been greatly a pleasure.

Doherty: And Susan, what's the rest of your day look like?

Bodnar: More clients. And yeah, I'm back-to-back [providing counseling to] a lot of people. And more hopefully walk therapy. Oh, I have a beautiful kid that I work with for just two seconds. Neuroatypical, very rigid about things that he does. Routinized. Doesn't like me. Doesn't want to come to see me. and I say okay, let's go outside. We work outside all the time. He wants to play football. All he wants to do is knock me over, knock me over, knock me over. And I say hey, okay, but look, there's witches. Look, those things over there. They're witches. Those are trees. I know, they're trees, but we can pretend they're witches. And all of a sudden, these are witches. And then we have a whole thing going now about being outside. He sees the outside world now. His eyes are opened. And we're now climbing bean stalks to go see giants, the clouds in the sky. And it's changing him. That's what I'm doing today. I'm working with him.

Doherty: That's really inspiring. So yes, there's therapists out there around the world that are trying to do this work. And Susan, you're a leader. And I'll do my own versions of this today as well.

Bodnar: You are the leader, excuse me.

Doherty: We try. We try. But it's really great to see these connections again, Susan us to talk and we'll talk more. And the ecopsychology journal and your work. And we'll have our show notes with some of the many things we referenced in here. We reference movies. We reference news stories. And some of the academic work that therapists will really appreciate. So you all will be well. And listeners will be well. And you can find this episode and other episodes at climatechangeandhappiness.com. And please support us so we can bring in more guests like Susan, we all enjoy. So you all be well and take care. Okay, take care.

Bodnar: Thank you.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com

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image credit | Aaron Thomas

Season 2, Episode 15: A Primer On Coping With The East Palestine EventThomas looked back on his psychological research into technological disasters to help explain why the recent train derailment and chemical disaster in East Palestine, Ohio was so traumatic for that community and so unsettling for observers from afar. These kinds of chemical disasters—with their ominous dark clouds, fearful citizenry, and fish dying in local streams—are very hard to cope with due to their uncertain long-term health risks. These events also tend to divide communities due to issues of human negligence and injustice, as poor and marginalized communities are often unfairly placed in harm’s way. Panu and Thomas showed how the train disaster is a variation of the larger issue of eco-anxiety about chemicals and toxins that besets people worldwide. To understand how the East Palestine event affects our emotions and feelings, it is first necessary to honor some of our basic environmental values (self-protection, concern for others less fortunate, and duty to protect vulnerable species). Listen in to the conversation and find support and connection.

Links* New York Times (Feb 14, 2023) Health and Environmental Fears Remain After Ohio Derailment and Inferno * USA Today (Feb 24, 2023), East Palestine train derailment killed more than 43,000 fish and animals, officials say * As Rail Executives Grow Richer, Train Derailments Have Become Commonplace * University of Florida: Impacts of Technological Disasters Fact Sheet * Research on Kärkölä chlorophenol incident in Finland, and 2008 Longitudinal follow-up study

TranscriptTranscript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Thomas Doherty: Hello, I am Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. A show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change. And in this podcast, we focus on climate emotions, our climate feelings. And by extension, our coping and how we get through the day. And you can support us at our Patreon. And you can always find us and all of our past episodes of climatechangeandhappiness.com.

Pihkala: Yes. And today, we are also going to speak about climate change – even though we are starting from quite a concrete thing. Namely, trains and what can happen with them. It was just minor news in Finland, but Thomas, you told me about this train disaster in East Palestine in Ohio in the US. And that was quite something when I took a more explicit look at the link you sent me. So what's going on there, Thomas?

Doherty: Well, thanks for asking Panu. Yeah, this is an issue that's, I think, getting more press in the United States because of all the different complexities of it. And I think it's great. It's not a fun topic to get into. It's a really messy topic. But I think in terms of our goals with this podcast of thinking about how we can actually have happiness and wellbeing in this era of climate change, we need to … deal with these kinds of things. And so we know that there was a train derailment in this community on February 3rd. A long train. Just like what happens in the United States. A long train full of different kinds of cars. And we know, unlike other countries, the United States, all the rail is private, so there's private companies that own the trains and own the tracks.

And this particular train derailed in a small community. A rural community that has been economically depressed. It's much like where I grew up in Western New York in Buffalo, New York. A former manufacturing community that's been experiencing hard times. And this train had several cars that were carrying toxic substances. Vinyl chloride, PVC, and various chemicals that I would have to look at my list to see. Butyl acrylate. Isobutylene. Basically industrial chemicals that are toxic to people and to other animals. And as people in the US know, [there was] this massive pile up of cars, and then there was a danger of an explosion. So they had to purposely burn off a lot of these chemicals creating a huge kind of ominous dark cloud over the community.

And it's really insidious. It's a great example of a technological disaster. Because it's the dark cloud. It's the chemicals. It's the mystery of what this means for people in the community. And the ominous things that happen. Fish dying in local streams. Farm animals dying. We can get into more of the psychological manifestations of this. But it's just kind of a mess. And then, of course, it's been polarized by different opportunistic politicians arriving on the scene. And people using it to beat up on each other. The different political parties here. And then the community kind of caught in the middle. And then there's even been conspiracy theories and various things. So it takes us to the dark side of the psyche here in the US and other countries. Are you familiar with things like these chemical spills and train wrecks in Finland? I know, again, another credit to your country, I did realize in my research that Finland has some of the safest train systems in the world. But are you familiar with these things happening nearby to you?

Pihkala: Well, it surely is quite different. From my travels in the US I noticed that the trains can be very very long. And Finland so far has just the state railway company, which is pretty good. But then because of the zeitgeist, the times in which we live there's discussion whether that should be privatized. And that's a big discussion. And the experiences from any of the countries where the railroad companies get privatized, they are not exactly encouraging, I think. But this also brings into mind, of course, anxiety and worry. And my research has been dealing more with the sort of, bit more abstract and large scale anxieties and worries. Although I've often made the point, both in writing and in speech, that what we nowadays call eco anxiety can be also related to more particular things and not just climate. So climate anxiety is one big part of eco anxiety.

But this case also reminds us, as you hinted, when we talked about this, that environmental anxiety as a concept seems to originate from things a bit like this anxiety and worry about chemicalization and that sort of thing. So you know that history way better than I do. So what's your thoughts on that?

Doherty: Yeah, I think it's good to talk about it. I'd like to think of this episode as a primer for how to cope with these kinds of issues. Because it's very easy to feel like a victim. And to feel powerless and hopeless. And I think the first step is to really, like with all the issues that we talk about, you know, eco grief, eco depression, eco anxiety. Thinking of them as doorways and not walls. Like they're doorways to pass through. That we can become bigger. And we can learn how to cope with this. So I think [it’s important] having a growth mindset about these things. That we can, in fact, evolve and grow, to be able to cope with these things, and take action to prevent them in the future, is the mindset to start here. And so I would encourage the listeners to really think of this as a primer.

Even though the train derailment might not be as directly linked in people's minds with other climate and environmental issues. It does play into our general pool of worry. As researchers talk about, we have a pool of worry in our mind. And an ambient level of daily stressors that we have to put up with in terms of global consciousness. And so trains are obviously running all the time. And we have 1000 train derailments a year in the United States. And so these are happening all the time. But we can kind of move it out of our mind temporarily until something like this happens. And then it reminds us of reality. So I think we can imagine ways to be our best selves. To be the best person that we can when we deal with this kind of thing. You know, and I know you and I have talked about this.

But you know, when I first, as a psychologist, started studying climate change, I had to look into the disaster psychology literature and the research on disasters in general. And, you know, I learned that, you know, researchers tend to distinguish between natural disasters and technological disasters. Natural disasters happen without necessarily human cause. Technological disasters, like this train derailment, do have some sort of human cause. A human error. Human negligence. Human mistake. Because the trains are meant to be safe. And they're supposed to be regulated. So something went wrong somewhere. And technically someone's responsible for that. And unlike, say, the recent earthquakes in Syria and Turkey, even though they have a human aspect, in terms of maybe poor work, construction rules, or building rules, no one is necessarily to blame for the earthquake itself happening. And so we tend to band together to try to help people and we celebrate the survivors.

But you'll notice the news, there's no celebration in East Palestine. There's no celebration. It's all negative because these technological disasters expose inequality and negligence and corruption and lack of regulation and these sacrifice communities. these marginalized communities. And so unfortunately these technological disasters tend to drive people apart. They separate people based on existing divisions. So the people in East Palestine already feel marginalized. They already feel left out economically. And they're already prone to hating outsiders and not trusting outsiders. And so when an accident like this happens, it just widens those existing divisions and makes everyone feel bad. Promotes distrust. And some of it is realistic because we don't know how these vinyl chlorides are going to affect the water and the wells and we don't know exactly. I haven't seen anyway, direct research on why the fish died. Like what exactly happened from that. So it is very mysterious. And as the news shows, people are worried about their long term health. Their children. Their property. Their property values. So it's right for them to be concerned.

Pihkala: Yeah, definitely. So and, as you say, this has strong elements of environmental justice.

Doherty: Yes.

Pihkala: Eco justice issues. And that's something to be kept in mind. And something again, which is worse in the US than in Finland, but we have our share of that also. And part of that is related to how the Sami people, the indigenous people in the North of Scandinavian, Nordic countries are treated. But also in urban areas. When I'm teaching courses at the University of Helsinki, which I sometimes do, I often show the students some video material about environmental racism. And they are very surprised about, you know, the role of the zip code in the US predicting health and life issues. And that sort of thing. So it seems that we are dealing with quite deeply ingrained issues.
Doherty: Yeah. And just so listeners are clear about the idea of, you know, zip code, you know, predicts lifespan. So depending on where you live in the US, you know, we can kind of predict someone's lifespan just on their community and the level of prosperity and health and economic development in their community. And so yes, we've got all of that happening here. So one way to think about this from a more growthful perspective is: it's a teachable moment. It's an opportunity for us to stop and to breathe. And to collect our nervous system. And remind ourselves of our values. Again, this is the process I use with people.

When I'm working on this, we stop. We collect ourselves. We give ourselves the benefit of a growth mindset. And we remind ourselves of our values. People are concerned about this, because their values are threatened. Values of natural balance. The natural order of things. The rights of people. The rights of other species. Everyone across the political spectrum wants a safe and healthy life for themselves. That's a common human goal. It doesn't matter if you're a billionaire, or just making it through the day. Everyone wants to be safe and happy. And so, you know, these values are all toxified we could say or threatened when something like this happens.

So, you know, there's an empowerment in understanding how our minds work. And how our emotion systems work. And we realize, oh, my values are under threat. You know, things that I hold dear are under threat. And then, of course, we can start to think about, okay, where do I get my information? How do I educate myself? Have I been doing my doom scrolling on the news? And realizing that the news, the various news sources are sometimes biased. And there's a lot of static among the different perspectives, because there's so much mystery in some of the outcomes. And then we can decide whether we want to get into this further and educate ourselves about this. And what level we want to become active in this. And that is an existential decision. Right?

We haven't quite talked about that in our podcast directly. But you know, it's described in your recent research and papers. You know, there's a distancing. A healthy distancing about how much do we want to take on of this? And can we take a break? Right? So again, we're, if listeners can imagine coming from a center. Coming from a place of control and choice. That's a place to start. It's just the other technological disaster aspects that are helpful to remind ourselves. You know, we talked about the social justice issues and the mystery of these chemical things. An earthquake is devastating, but it's not mysterious. We know what happens. It shakes the ground. Buildings collapse. Then it stops. And then we rebuild. So it's relatively simple to understand for our human minds.

But the spilling of a chemical that's never existed in history, into the environment. We actually don't know what's going to happen with that chemical. We literally do not know. And so it's very mysterious. And it's hard to cope with. And there's a post mortem, where people are seeking who's responsible. And they're wanting to place blame. And then they look back on warning signs. And of course, it's incredible with this train, if you look into it, someone was able to find some security footage from a nearby factory that showed the train going by in the dark of the night. And you could see the flames coming off of the wheels. You know, as it rolled by. So we were amazingly able to track what happened with this wreck. Even though there's a diffusion of responsibility.

People can have physiological symptoms just from stress. So, in the news, talks about residents having rashes and various other mysterious physical symptoms. And they're not sure if they're from the chemicals. But the insidious thing is that just from stress alone, we can develop rashes. So some of these symptoms that people are having are psychological symptoms. They're real. And they are suffering, but they aren't necessarily associated with the chemicals. And it's really hard to tell the difference.

Pihkala: Yeah. It's very tricky when there's this uncertainty element and invisibility included. And this also reminded me of the risk perception research around climate change. Folks like Paul Slovic, for example, and George Marshall, in his book about climate communication he is discussing this and interviewing Slovic. And the difficulty with climate change being that it's often so invisible. And even the weather impacts, there's certain ambiguity, and then different people can try to find different elements from their personal histories and link those weather events with that. But with technology, if there's something new coming, which then can be pinpointed, then it's a lot easier for people to react. And it brings in an object. And perhaps also a sort of visible enemy if you want to oppose that. So there's this unknown risk or dread risk, as Slovic calls some of these very serious risks. And radiation is one of those. So there's some links with this climate change psychology here also.

Doherty: Yeah. And that's where we can use this pragmatically. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about in my writing and in this book project that I'm working on. You know, how do we use some of these situations to our benefit? What researchers have found is that, you know, we get numb to large numbers, right? So 1000 train derailments, that seems like a lot, but it actually leads us to more habituate to it. Oh, well, there's 1000 of them. So you kind of get used to the large numbers. So we get numbed unfortunately, to you know, 1000s or millions of people. We get numb to the number of climate refugees. You know, the statistics. We get numb to large statistics, whereas individual personal stories really still activate us. And make things more meaningful for us. So that's part of the opportunity with an issue like the Palestine trail derailment, is that it's an opportunity to see a real story in real time with real people. And actually we're less numb to it. And paradoxically, that's a good thing. Because we want to be able to feel. And numbness isn't our friend.

So, you know, maybe that's why this is a teachable moment. That it might potentially lead to better regulation of these trains, if we can push through the moment. And that's where the politics come in. And the action because there is a moment, a window. As we know from politics, there's a certain window of opportunity when the public is open to do things. And if we can act we can put some simple regulations in place. Labeling trains better so the communities know what chemicals. Because this train wasn't even labeled as toxic. So some of the toxic train protection rules wouldn't even have been at play. But, you know, this is an opportunity to tighten up the rules and regulations. It doesn't mean we have to nationalize and, you know, take away the private companies rights in this case, but it does require some logical rules and regulations. So there's an opportunity here.

If listeners are inspired, they can see what's happening in their states. And try to be involved in that because there's a window. But what will happen as we know, unfortunately, is that corporate lobbyists and people that are working toward purely promotion of profit will immediately try to fight against the regulation. And try to delay. Try to hold off. Try to stop the legislators from making the regulations until the public forgets. And they move on. The same thing that's happened obviously with climate change. The delayism. So this moves us into the realm of politics here.

Pihkala: Yeah. That's very true. And vigilance is a concept which could be discussed more in the eco emotion and climate emotion discourse, also. Some sort of eco vigilance, you know. The ability to stay sort of alert. Not too alert, but you pay attention. And you collectively try to take care that different norms are being followed. And very often, it requires wake up calls every now and then.

Doherty: Yeah vigilance. Yes. You know, like Churchill said, you know, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Right? So the price of, you know, ecological sustainability is eternal vigilance. Because we have to stay on this. So anyway, it's not that we're forcing listeners to go into action. But we're saying one direction is action. And looking at your state and community. I know in Washington state, they tried to regulate some of these trains. And then the federal government stopped it because it was seen as suppressing the market and suppressing profits. And so this takes us into the whole economic system. I know Portland, my city, is trying to regulate the trains. We have our own issue. So even if listeners just looked at what trains move through their communities, that would be a start. Portland has to deal with coal trains moving through and various things here. The same kind of issues. And I know states of Idaho and other states are actually trying to fight the city of Portland regulations because they're saying it hurts their economy.

Right. So you know, that's where it gets messy. We have to get into the politics if we actually want to make change. Now, not everyone needs to do that. But someone needs to do that. And if we're not doing it, at least we can talk to our legislators or maybe contribute to a group that is working on this kind of thing. But again, it comes down to the choices that we make about what our values are and what issues we want to take on. Because we can't take on everything.

Pihkala: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, this also reminds me of a case in early personal history in the 1980s. The community where I grew up, we talked about this a bit in some of our very early episodes of this podcast, it had a medium size sawmill. And that was a big part of the economy of the whole little town. And then in the 80s, it became apparent that a chemical called chlorophenol had leaked into the ground water. And people had been drinking that for a while. And the Ministry of the Environment had just been established in Finland, like just some time ago. And that was the first complex eco social case for the whole Ministry of the Environment in Finland. And that turned out to be a big learning experience.

It didn't go too well to begin with. There wasn't enough skills of negotiation. And it got quite heated between the sawmill who tried to deny responsibility and people were of course, scared, you know. There's this unknown risk. And also a dread element. And that sort of thing. But eventually that case led into better practices and better legislation. And finally, also for this small town of Kärkölä, they reached an agreement about cleaning up the chemical things and reached some also agreements with this sawmill and that sort of thing. But it was a very long process. And as a kid I've also been drinking some chlorophenol, but luckily apparently, it didn't cause much trouble in my body. There was some increase in cancer rates in town, but it was very difficult to prove scientifically the cause and effect. So that's, of course, often a very tricky thing in these kinds of contaminations. But I really appreciate you, Thomas, sort of speaking about these opportunities for learning and change and action which these moments also bring.

Doherty: Yeah. So again, it's, we need to stop and just have grief for this situation. It's a sad situation. It's a troubling situation. People are injured. Animals have died. A community is impacted. So that's normal. It's normal to feel sad here. But we also have other emotions that we can, we can move through. I mean, so again, the coping steps are to remind ourselves, this is an ecological issue. It's linked to our system. You know, it's linked to all different aspects of our natural world. And the economy and politics. And looking at our feelings as we're talking about. And realize that we can decide what we want to feel. We can also feel curious. We can feel patient. We can feel, you know, angry. We can feel inspired.

A missing step is actually looking at our own impacts. Like how is this issue actually literally affecting me in East Palestine. You know, when I did the research years ago on climate change, we identified the emotional impacts. Even if you're not in the location where the event is happening, you can still feel impacted by it. Even if you're 1000s of miles away, and those chemicals aren't literally coming to you at all, you still feel bad. And that is exactly what's happening here with this Palestine, that we don't even realize it. It's just happening, ‘wow, I'm upset by something that I only know about through the news.’ But then we can start to think about our values. And the people we want to be. And then we can decide if we want to particularly take action on this issue or other issues. Because we can't take action on everything. So, there are some steps, as you know, that we can cope and break it down for people. So it is an opportunity.

Pihkala: Yeah, exactly. And once again, the balancing act between not staying totally away and being exposed to these particularizing media stories. Which, again, can arouse empathy or righteous, moral outrage in us. And we need that to act, but then also, not to follow these very lively particularizing stories all the time. Because then there's the problem of compassion, fatigue and those kinds of effects. So once again, coming also back to this. The tricky but very necessary balance.

Doherty: Yeah. Because, I mean, there's a quote from my insight meditation timer app that I get a nice quote every day when I try to do my meditation. And there's a quote I saw recently from Pema Chödrön, a spiritual teacher, you know, “fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth.” It was a profound quote. And I thought about, you know, our fear and our concerns are because we're touching on the truth.

These events, like the East Palestine derailment, remind us of the truth of the world. The truth of our world. The truth of our systems. The truth of our economy. The truth of our technology. And it is scary. And it's painful. But do we want to live in truth? Or do we want to live in numbing and denial? That's the choice. I think most people would choose, even though it's difficult to want to live in the truth. And so that's the existential start here. Easy to say, harder to do. Because as you said our minds do want to get too much truth is hard to handle. Interbeing and being connected with nature opens us up to this dark ecology of pain and loss. Our hearts are wired for this so we have to be open to it. There's something noble about that I think. Something heroic.

Pihkala: Yeah, in all colors and shades we are connected with everything around us. And the borders can be quite porous, but any way this could lead into also a quite metaphysical discussion as you know. The “structure of being” -type of thoughts. But I think we need to leave that for another session. It's been fascinating to sit with you, Thomas with East Palestine. And trying to stay open to reality. So thanks for the episode once again.

Doherty: Thank you, Panu. Yes and to anyone who's listening and to the people. If you're in East Palestine we're with you and we're aware of the situation and we're feeling with you. So we wish you all well our listeners. And thinking about how you're going to channel things into action. Panu and I part of our action is doing this podcast for you. That's something that both of us feel good about in terms of taking daily action and bearing witness. So you all be well. And Panu, you have a good evening.

Pihkala: Take care everyone.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness podcast is a self funded volunteer effort, please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

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  image credit | Mohamed Nohassi

Season 2, Episode 14: Emotions and Climate Adaptation with Susi MoserThomas and Panu were pleased to connect with geographer and climate change communications expert Susanne “Susi” Moser, whose path finding publications such as 2007’s Creating a Climate for Change set the stage for much of the current psychology and social science of climate change. Susi shared her own climate journey as a young earth science researcher charting her own emotional responses to the reality of climate change, and how she found allies in the work of ecopsychology activists like Joanna Macy, and ongoing challenges for working scientists to cope with the emotional side of their work. Susi described her mission providing positive visions for change for engineers and planners in the scientific and technical community – climate adaptation professionals whose day jobs are to “look the apocalypse in the face every single day.” Join us for an inspiring conversation on finding new meaning and a larger frame.

“When you think about the scientific or technical professions, it is very uncommon to bring in emotion, your whole selves into the conversation, into your work, right? We're supposed to be, you know, heads on a stick. But that's just not who we are. And, in fact … all the conversation we've had in recent years about storytelling is all about that, right? It is actually about re-embodying ourselves into a larger fabric of who we are as people. What our identity is. How it changes through the experiences we have in life. And how it is held in the community.”

Links Susanne Moser + Creating a Climate for Change + Successful Adaptation to Climate Change * The Emotional Toll of Climate Change on Science Professionals * Stephanie Kaza (Ed.) A Wild Love for the World: Joanna Macy and the Work of Our Time* * “Once You Know” documentary

TranscriptTranscript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. The show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about this personal side of climate change. Particularly their emotional responses. And how they make sense of this big issue. And today, we're very lucky to have a guest.

Susi Moser: And I'm Susi Moser. And it's just a delight to be here with the two of you. Thank you so much for having me.

Doherty: And Panu and I both know Susi, and her work. We follow her. She's been a leader in this kind of area of climate change, climate psychology, and understanding our emotions and feelings about climate for quite some time. And she's been doing all kinds of innovative work. And so we're glad to have her. And we're gonna have a conversation about that today. Panu, do you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Susan. It's such a pleasure to have an opportunity to discuss with you. We've met in person in Finland, actually. You've been an active keynote speaker on topics such as climate change communication, and adaptation. And lots of things related to the human mind and psychosocial issues. But should we start with history? Would you like to share some of your journey? How did you end up in all this and all the stuff related to climate emotions also?

Moser: Yeah, it's a really interesting question. I actually think it goes back to the late 1980s. You know, sort of when it first became a topic in public conversation. Obviously relatively, you know, late after it's become a scientific issue. But at that point, I was a student of geography. And I studied earth sciences. And, you know, my climatology teacher was already quite interested in it. But, you know, my geology teacher said, yeah, nothing to worry about. You know, Earth has gone through climate change for a whole bunch of time. So that was sort of my first scientific introduction. And then I was just really curious. Studying it myself.

And I don't know, when I started to realize, my God, what are we talking about? It hit me for the first time, probably in the early 1990s. What it would mean. I studied the impact of storms on coastal regions. I visited coastal regions. I saw what that devastation is like. And, you know, I looked at sea level rise. A curve that is just going up no matter what we do. I mean, it matters what we do in terms of how steep it goes up. But it will go up for millennia. And yeah, most of us on this planet live in coastal areas. And it just became very clear to me from the start that, you know, while this might be the hardest thing to talk about, it is actually going to be one of the most impactful things that human species has ever experienced. And then I just, you know, I tried to communicate that. I was awful at it in the beginning myself. Typical scientist, you know, starting with pretty much the beginning of time to explain things and losing people in five minutes. So, yeah, I had to learn some hard lessons about that.

And then really, you know, once I started to get interested in the question of how we communicate it. I mean, the whole point of the communication at that time was to get better at it. Essentially, to mobilize people. And oftentimes, people used fear. They used guilt. They used all kinds of emotional, you know, ways to get us off our seats. Off our butts. And I was like, wait a minute, this is dangerous territory the way we're doing this. And, you know, as a science communicator, I was trained to forget emotions. Put them aside. And it just felt completely wrong to me to do that. So that's kind of how I first got interested in the emotional side of climate change. And, in fact, you know, a lot of what I've done since is a follow on to this to fully recognize and appreciate that it's actually a very healthy response. And a very normal, non pathological response. How we react emotionally, psychologically, to an existential threat. So I'll stop there for, you know, give you probably lots of things to start poking into. But anyway, that's how I started.

Doherty: But one of the things I'm really interested in is that we talk about this environmental identity. You know, which comes out of conservation psychology. But this idea of our sense of self in relation to nature and the natural world. But you're I'm guessing, if you go even farther back, can you think of things that formed your environmental identity, even younger? Your connection with nature and the natural world? Because it seems to me, you must have had some inner motivation to push through on some of this. Because you must have felt marginalized at the beginning. When you were starting. I'm just wondering, when you look back now, particularly with your insights. And then your larger life story, in early development, can you see any turning points from nature and your connections?

Moser: Well, it was my saving grace to have, you know, a large backyard to go back into. And, I mean, that was, for me, the safe place to be. It wasn't a scary place to be. It was, you know, just where I felt most at home. And so that's been true for me throughout my life. But certainly in my upbringing. Probably my interest in that. And my desire to protect nature. And all those things, they probably go back to my early childhood. And then I just professionalize it by, you know, choosing geography. The one topic that I thought I wasn't going to get bored with, given the size. And the complexity. And many dimensions of Earth with all its people on it. And geography is just perfect for that.

So those were some key choices that I made around that. And then the psychology really came out of my own, you know, introspection of my own reflectivity. And my own experience of nature. And how I experienced hearing about climate change. And what it would, you know, imagining forward what that would mean, for all of us.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks a lot for sharing all that. That's really fascinating to hear. And how did it go in relation to coping with all of this, during those times 1990s and early 2000s? When you said that somewhere around the early 1990s, you woke up more profoundly to how severe the climate crisis actually is. And then you had some of these quite pioneering ventures. So, how did that go? When did you find some allies at some point?

Moser: Yeah at some point, but not early on. So early on it, you know, felt like I was pretty much alone with my emotional response. And, quite frankly, you know, I probably only let myself go, not very deep into that because it felt overwhelming. And it was probably in the early 1990s that I discovered Joanna Macy's work. And that was essential for me. In fact, actually, it was probably the late 1990s, because in the early 2000s, I took two long training sessions with her. And, you know, led me to actually also lead and integrate the work that reconnects into my work. But that was the first time I actually felt like there were companions on this journey. You know, I wasn't alone with the grief. And, you know, and I will say it's still for most of my daily life, a fairly lonely journey in the sciences, at least it is so unconventional too. Still unconventional to actually name your emotions about the things you study.

So, you know, I know now where my allies are. And the, you know, the allyship has grown in the sense of simply having the fact of climate emotions being talked about more often. In, you know, all your guests are, you two are like, you know, part of that larger field. So that's changed the context. But sort of my daily life, it is still you know, not something I spend all my time in. I don't know if you're aware or your listeners might be interested, there's a documentary that was made. And I was in it. The documentary is called Once You Know. And it actually traces the journey of the filmmaker. But it includes the journeys of scientists who, you know, take the emotional side of their work seriously. And how do they live with that? And how do they integrate that or cope with that? And also use it in a way to, you know, infuse and fuel their work in really wonderful ways. So that was an interesting experience. And it sort of has grown my own community of people that I can speak to about these things a little more substantially.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for sharing all of that. Joanna Macy's name has been mentioned in this podcast also, several times. And we are planning to do an explicit episode on this Work That Reconnects that you mentioned. It's the name of the method she and others developed. And that's been hugely influential for my work also. And many regard Macy as an elder in all work around eco emotions, or whatever we call them. Or just, you know, our emotional response to what's happening in the world. There was the threat of nuclear war in the 1980s. And she and some others were also active in facing the effective response to that.

Moser: Yeah. Yeah, I think she's one of the crucial elders. At least for very pragmatic, kind of, you know, work. Like how do we work with these emotions? Right? How do we not sit alone with these emotions, but connect with others? And are held in community in deep emotional grief. And working through that. And by that, I don't mean to, you know, get rid of it, right? But to honor it. And to find a renewed energy and power to go back in the world and engage with it as opposed to be paralyzed and disappearing. And she has been probably one of the most influential people in my work.

The other one is Bill Plotkin. And I know you have also mentioned him in your podcast before. His work, I think, in many ways gets at the root causes of why we have something called climate change in the first place. And so that, to me, has been very, very influential as well. Yeah.

Doherty: Yeah. So this all gets to this idea of eco psychology. These are all this idea of really revisioning what our sense of psychology even is in relation to being on the planet. Yeah. So I want to stay a little bit just for a moment with the science communication piece. Only because we have listeners. It's a paradox, I think, Susi. There [are] way more resources and support for science teachers, or researchers or your students who do, you know, who are feeling, obviously, all the feelings that are coming with this work.

But, even now, as I tell people and students, you still kind of have to be a pathfinder, you know. So what I'm hearing from you is that even now. Even at your level, it still can be lonely at times. And you're still having to be a bit of a pathfinder. But I think that's just an important thing for listeners to take in. And that kind of could be a segue to our adaptive mind conversation in a moment. But it sounds like that's just the nature of it still. It's better than it was 20 years ago, but still difficult.

Moser: Yeah, I think we're in a, you know, we're really trying to change culture. Right? When you think about the scientific or technical professions, it is very uncommon to bring in emotion, your whole selves into the conversation, into your work, right? We're supposed to be, you know, heads on a stick. But that's just not who we are. And, in fact … all the conversation we've had in recent years about storytelling is all about that, right? It is actually about re-embodying ourselves into a larger fabric of who we are as people. What our identity is. How it changes through the experiences we have in life. And how it is held in the community.

And so, you know, science has essentially asked us to make it a professional pride to dissociate from ourselves. And, you know, I mean, in your profession, Thomas, you would call it pathological. But we've made it a matter of credibility to be that emotion free. And I think what we're beginning to see is, it's to the detriment of the mental health and well being of the people doing the work.

Doherty: Yeah.

Moser: So, you know, I don't think emotion disqualifies me as a scientist, you know. I think it is, the more repressed our emotions are, the more they actually influence us unconsciously. And actually, that makes for bad science.

Doherty: Yeah.

Moser: So I think the more self aware and clear we are about, you know, how else we are impacted by what we know, the more effective we can be in analysis. And in synthesis of an understanding. Scientific understanding. And also more effective in communication.

Pihkala: That's great wisdom, I think. And really, really important. And there's such a range of issues here. There's this whole idea of Western science, especially since the Enlightenment period. And, all the complexities [that] also revolve around gender. Through these developments when reason was started to be seen as masculine and good, and emotion was started to be seen as feminine and weak. There's [a] very long history of ideas and developments here behind this. Just to give the listeners a clue of the scope of this huge work.

So there's both writings about communication. And how it's important to pay not only attention to emotions in general, but also to the difficult ones. And that was really rare in the 2000s. And when I started my work on difficulty, eco emotions, that was very important source material. But you've also done, because of your expertise in adaptation, sort of field work. There's some articles where you're actually, you know, drawing on people's experiences that you have met. For example, along the coastlines. And there's the philosophical things around concepts of hope and despair, for example. So that's something that I highly appreciate in any scientist or thinker. In this case you, but just wanted to give some glimpses to the readers about the obvious thing.

Doherty: Yeah. And I feel less lonely when we're having these conversations too. Because I think about this stuff all the time as well. You know, Susi, early on in our planning, you talked about some different emotions that you were curious about. And, you know, this adaptive mind. This idea of how do we kind of create this world that we need? Do you want to talk about some specific emotions? Or some specific things you want to kind of get into? You know, we have some time to chat. Let's see, what are you curious about?

Moser: Yeah, so maybe I could just, you know, first start by just saying what I mean by the adaptive mind just so that people understand where that comes from. So, you know, besides the, as Panu just mentioned, besides the work in communication, I've done a lot of work in adaptation, mostly in coastal areas. And, you know, early on, there were a handful of us working on this. And around 2006, after Al Gore's movie came out, all of a sudden, people realized we cannot just mitigate climate change. We actually also just have to live with some of the now unavoidable consequences. So lots of people started to enter the field of adaptation around 2005, 2006, when that came out.

But 10 years later, I started to hear people at conferences, just take me aside and say, you know, let's have a drink, whatever. And they would just say, and how do you deal with this all the time? You know, people started to just have confidence, basically asked me how to emotionally cope with what they see every single day. I mean, others have said this before, but it's essentially, when your day job is to look the apocalypse in the face every single day, how do you cope with that? And then people started to say, well, it's not just that, but you know, I need to give talks to people who are traumatized from the most recent flooding or from the most recent wildfire. What trauma informed work in adaptation? You know, people started to talk.

Yeah, and it's deeply interconnected with all the intersectional challenges that communities face. Race and poverty. And you know, the whole rest of it, right? And so those people were really looking for skills to help this deep transformative shift that we need to go through. And that is both a shift socially, economically, but it's also in our relationship to the environment, right? And how we relate to each other. So out of that sort of set of needs, I basically said, you know, I want to work on that. I want to think about what are support mechanisms? What are skill building opportunities we can create? Because you don't learn that in engineering school or in planning school. Or, you know, if you're a climate scientist, you don't get the lowdown on how to avoid burnout, right?

Anyway, those are the kinds of contexts that lots of people in the scientific and technical communities didn't have the skills to deal with this constant traumatic and transformative change that people are facing. So out of that, basically, was birthed this idea of the adaptive mind. And it's a project that is aimed at skill building. At building those capacities. And, you know, one of the first things that I come across again and again, in this work is, first people just arrive exhausted. They're just completely fried. And so much of what we do in the beginning of our training cycle, is to help people just reconnect with themselves. Reconnect with each other. Reconnect to nature. Just as a baseline. Just to kind of, you know, get to a place where they can even take in learning about new skills. You can't learn when you're completely fried.

And the next step in that often then is about having that community hold space for climate emotions. And it can be anything, right? Grief is often in there probably dominantly. But also anger. And anxiety. And fear for what happens to the children. You know, whatever. So it's a wide range of experiences people face. And, you know, we basically, then hold that space for people to have that experience. And what inevitably happens is, when people actually have space for their emotions, they don't get stuck in them. They actually then are able to, you know, think clearly again, right? Coming back to the work of Joanna Macy. You see with new eyes. You have opportunities to connect with others.

And think differently about how do I address this more fundamentally than, you know, just putting one bandaid after another that just dries me up? So that's kind of, you know, what we're trying to do there. And yeah, so that climate emotions are and really holding space for that, with some skill is really essential in that work, because that's the part that no one gets.

Doherty: Yeah. I'm thinking of our episode with Scott Ordway. The composer who has been making music about the wildfires in his home. And his discussion. At least listeners can go to Season two, Episode 10. HIs discussion of how when we played that piece of music for the community, you know, that was damaged by the fires, how cathartic that was. And how healing that was. So that was an artistic take on a similar kind of coping.

Moser: Well, it's such a beautiful thing too to, you know, tap into things that are nonverbal, right? To get into a whole different part of our brains. To, you know, it taps parts of us much more easily than if I say, oh, would you like to, you know, express your grief? It's just, you know, it's much more difficult to do that in that way. Whereas music can take you there in like, two seconds, you know? So I think of imaginative ways of opening to a different future. I know, you've talked a lot with people about hope in your series of podcasts here. I always think, you know, if we can't imagine a better future, like, why bother with hope? I mean, right? You need to open that up. And art, other forms, all forms of art can help open that. So that's often another part of what we do in our adaptive mind work.

Doherty: Yeah. And I think meaning then comes out of this work, ultimately. You know, my life has some significance. Things start to make sense. I have a purpose. Do you see that, Susi, coming out in the process that you're describing. You know, how these kinds of emotional openings and space holdings, then allow people to start to have a sense of meaning. You know, repair their meaning making?

Moser: You know, it's actually in my experience, in this particular piece of the work, a central question. Many people don't burn out just because they haven't had a vacation in a while. Or because there had been too many disasters that they had to attend to. But they burn out because their work doesn't make sense anymore. You know, like, why should I bother and drain myself doing it with something that just feels completely irrelevant in light of the magnitude. And, you know, lots of that has to do with our very obscure and strange sense of self in Western society, right? As individuals, we are often thinking of ourselves only as individuals as opposed to part of a collective. That's certainly a big part of the problem of why we keep burning out.

But also, you know, so much of our work has become a very narrow and mechanistic way of fitting into a machine that we don't actually want to be part of. Right? It's the machine that actually creates all this problem in the first place. And, you know, like, imagine, for example, you're a sustainability director in an urban community. And your work is to try to build trust with, you know, underserved communities, marginalized communities, right? Your police department next door is hitting those same people with batons or worse, right? Like, it makes no sense to be part of that community. And yet, you want to help. You want to do something. So you need skills to navigate and change the system that you're in at the same time that you want to be effective and actually, in those interactions with people who are not trustful. Who is afraid for a very good reason.

So, anyway, those are the, you know, the kinds of real life situations that many people in my line of work find themselves in. And who just doesn't know how to address it. And the question of meaning is absolutely central. How do I bring myself at the deepest level to the repair work. To the restorative work. To the healing work that needs to happen on this planet?

Doherty: Yes. Well said. Well said.

Pihkala: Yes, truly. So and as you two know, meaning has been a very key concept in my work also. And perhaps, Thomas, we should do one episode explicitly on meaning and various takes on it. I don't mean any, you know, academic philosophical discussion. But the lived experiences of meaning. And sort of different types of meaning that are changing now. And some of them related, for example, to the felt significance of our work. Which Susi has commented [on] here.

So speaking of sticks and carrots. Which is a very simple metaphor for communication. It's not straightforward, but meaning can be an important carrot in that sense. Because if people see those people who are willing to try to face reality. And feel the emotions. And do things for the community. And the planet. If they see meaningfulness and a sense of meaning in those communities and people, that's going to be very motivating. And then, of course, what is needed is also pathways to become part of those communities. So that it's not an in-group, out-group thing. But does that spark something in your mind, Susi?

Moser: Well, I feel, you know, that's actually at the heart of what makes communication work, right? As opposed to just communicating and conveying a number of scientific facts, right? That's what I used to do. Sort of just, you know, can I find the best word possibly to convey the end of the world as we know it, you know? In some factoids that people can remember. Or that sticks in their minds.

But really, when you think about any talk, any moving event, or keynote, or whatever that you have heard it is when people are touched in their hearts. And their deepest own concerns about what is my life about? Why am I here? You know, and can you in some ways, connect to that part? Through story or, you know, whatever it is. And ask people to be in the world from that place. It's a very different proposition than how do I communicate, you know, certain parts per million. And the temperature curve, right? I am asking people to reconsider how do you want to be on this planet while you are here?

Doherty: Yeah.

Moser: And in my experience, I can tell them very frightening information and very uplifting information. And still have people walk out with hope when I have touched that place.

Doherty: Yeah.

Moser: If I haven't done that, it was a lost opportunity.

Doherty: So for our listeners who are listening, I mean, we're, again, this fly on the wall in this conversation. I think one of the takeaways is that … working with meaning is like swimming in deep water. You know, we have it and then we lose it. And then we're okay temporarily losing our meaning because this work is difficult. And it is all, you know, irrational. Like you say the world is absurd. And so we have these periods of losing meaning.

But then if we can go to the emotions. And be with other people. And share these emotions, then that kind of cycles us back, probably to the meaning. So I think, for young listeners in particular, you know, as Susi and Panu can verify, you know, we lose our meaning. We think we have it and we try to work and it becomes difficult. We get burned out. And then we go through that time. And then we recover our meaning, right? So that's a takeaway for the listeners, right? All these cycles.

Moser: Can I build on that?

Doherty: Sure.

Moser: So you said, it's absurd. I don't think the world is absurd.

Doherty: Fair enough.

Moser: So for me, when we temporarily might think that way, I think that's the moment when the frame through which we look at the world is too small to hold it. To actually make sense of it. We are invited in that moment, into a bigger frame. So when I'm in a bigger way to understand what's happening, than even this descent, you know. Or even this falling apart of Western society makes sense to me. For other people who, you know, are still holding on to that particular frame, it's terrible. And it makes no sense. You know, why bother living, right? But when you see it in the larger frame of say, this is an archetypal movement, where smaller self definitions have to necessarily crumble, make space for something different, right? And you then discover something new.

So it's not even remake, recovering, meaning. It is making a whole new meaning. Like you come out differently after that. And I think we as a society. I hope we as humanity will come out very different. When we are through this transformational rough spot that we're in at the moment. And, you know, hopefully get to being a very different way on the planet. I mean, as Joanna Macy would say, from a life defying or life destroying way of being to a life supporting. Life is restored. Life enhancing force on the planet. I always love to think, you know, can we keep the Anthropocene to a really, really thin layer? Going back to my geological training, right? Like, can we keep that to a really thin layer? And then become a force on the planet that actually helps to rebuild life?

Doherty: Yeah.

Moser: I don't know. As opposed to destroying it.

Pihkala: That's a great reason. As it has been said, we need visions. And things that we can hope for. That certainly is one that I'm in for.

Moser: Well, we're supposed to be, you know, Homo Sapiens. Sapiens. The white wise ones, right? We're not anywhere near the wise ones. So I think it's time for us to still become the species we could become.

Doherty: That's a great place to close out today. I mean, on this growthful vision. I do want to, we'll share some of the links. And to that documentary, you mentioned Susi. And to some of your work. And I could easily see having you back again for another time to continue this conversation. Obviously, there's so much we could go into. But I hope the listeners got something out of today. Both young listeners. Science folks. Folks working on adaptation helping communities to live in the world of climate change. And I really appreciate your work, Susi, and I wish you the best. And I hope you hope you have success in the next little bit here.

Moser: Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be with both of you. And yes, to be continued.

Doherty: Alright, I'll take care of yourselves. Bye bye.

Panu Pihkala: Warm thanks, Susi.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

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image credit | The Susty Vibes team on the streets of Lagos during World Cleanup Day

Season 2, Episode 13: SustyVibes with Jennifer UchenduThomas and Panu spoke with Jennifer Uchendu, a researcher and climate activist from Lagos, Nigeria. Jennifer is founder of SustyVibes, a youth-focused climate organization with a mission to design and implement projects that make sustainability cool, actionable and relatable in Africa. The trio discussed Jennifer’s sense of Nigeria’s environmental situation and history and climate emotions she has observed among youth and elders in the country. Jennifer explained the SustyVibes mindset and the new Eco-Anxiety in Africa Project, where she works with scholars like Charles Ogunbunde (see Season 2, Episode 8). As Jennifer reflected:

“It's been a journey of just learning. Pointing myself to more and more exciting projects. But ultimately, the goal is to ensure that young people … in my generation, young people who look like me, have the right agency or the tools to transform whatever feelings of fear or powerlessness to hope and to actions.”

Join us for the conversation!

Links* SustyVibes * Diffey, Wright, & Uchendu at al 2022: "Not about us without us" - the feelings and hopes of climate-concerned young people around the world * Jennifer Uchendu on founding The Eco-Anxiety in Africa Project * Some background on Nigeria and the resource challenges faced by developing nations in Africa + Nigeria is oil rich and energy poor. It can’t wait around for cheaper batteries + It is time to break free of Africa’s dirty “fossil fuel trap”

TranscriptTranscript edited for clarity and brevity.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. The show for people around the globe who are thinking about the personal side of climate change. Particularly their emotional responses and their feelings about climate change. And you can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. And support us at our Patreon so we can bring this content to you. And today, we are very excited to have a special guest.

Jennifer Uchendu: Hi, everyone. My name is Jennifer Uchendu. I'm calling in from Nigeria. And I'm the founder of SustyVibes. Looking forward to our discussion today.

Doherty: Yes. And so we're really glad to have Jennifer coming in from Lagos. And we've been waiting for this conversation for a while. And, as you know, we try to make this as best we can a world conversation. And with different people, and different ages. So I'm really looking forward to [this] chat. Panu, do you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Jennifer, also, from my part. I'm really glad to have this opportunity to discuss. We've met online a couple of times, in things related to climate emotions. And I've been fascinated by the work you've been doing in Nigeria. Both research and leading and working with NGOs. And so there's plenty to talk about here. And we're really interested about Nigerian perspectives, also. But would you like to start by saying a bit about where you are and where you come from, so to speak. So, what's up for you, Jennifer?

Uchendu: Absolutely. Thanks, Panu. I'm calling in from Lagos, Nigeria, where I live and work. SustyVibes, my organization, you know, we're based in Nigeria. [We] started here [and] have now started expanding to parts of West Africa. But really our work is for, you know, young people in Nigeria.

I always like to tell the story, as you know, seven years ago, I was, you know, this really young person. I'm still young now. But I was super young. Really passionate about, you know, the environment and looking for a platform where I can be a young person that meaningfully participates and contributes to environmental protection. And at the time, there were typical, you know, NGOs and CSOs in Nigeria that were run by older people. And there wasn't a lot of space for that kind of youth led and youth focused work. And then I started writing a blog about sustainability and the environment. And that kind of evolved into the work that I do now. Which is like bringing young people together and driving work when it comes to, you know, environmental protection.

And I found myself in this work for climate and mental health as far back as 2019. Where we saw that even though young people were coming together to do work on environmental protection, there were still lots of emotions coming in and interplaying in our everyday lives that we needed to kind of interrogate [and] explore a bit more. And, you know, that's where we got to find out about eco-anxiety. You know, grief and all of those emotions that make us whole and human, I would say. And it's been really interesting, you know, navigating these emotions. Finding ways to safeguard them. Especially for us as Africans, recognizing that, you know, our own emotions and triggers as it relates to the climate crisis is quite peculiar. Especially when you look at it from the lens of climate justice, you know, and whatnot.

So there's been so much to explore. It's been a journey of just learning. Pointing myself to more and more exciting projects. But ultimately, the goal is to ensure that young people, you know, in my generation, young people who look like me have the right agency or the tools to transform whatever feelings of fear or powerlessness to hope and to actions. So yeah, that really is me in a nutshell.

Doherty: Nigeria is—I'm looking at the map of Nigeria, Jennifer. I'd like to say just at the beginning a bit about you—what is the experience of people there and young people? It's funny, my daughter is 15. And she's studying human geography. And she has a test today where—I was helping her study for her test. And one of her vocabulary words is “superimposed boundaries” on countries. Where you make a boundary of a country that lays on top of all the existing cultures and nations within the culture.

And I know Nigeria is a very diverse place. How do you as young people in Nigeria, see yourselves in relation to the history in Nigeria with the oil? And with the politics? And I know, even into the 90s, there was violence against environmentalists? I mean, I'm really wondering, do you feel safe [in] your work? You know? Is it really revolutionary what you're doing? I'm just curious, what it feels like here in the 21st century.

Uchendu: Yeah, absolutely. Such a great question to have asked. There's so much to unpack, you know, to be a young person passionate about issues around the environment in Nigeria. On one hand, you know that our livelihoods, you know, lifestyle is very much linked to our environment, you know, for us in Nigeria. You can't take that away from, you know, our reality. You know, just a couple of days ago, we woke up, and we just found out that we had no water. You're just trying to figure out what exactly it is, you know. It's like, it's the reality where every day there's some linkage with the environment. With natural resources and whatnot. But at the same time, where you live in Nigeria. Whether it's the urban or rural area. Whether it's the southwest, the north. Kind of, you know, dictates your relationship with whether it's power or, you know, the issues at hand. So a lot of people in the southwest who live in the urban area oftentimes are kind of more shielded than people who live in rural areas. And interestingly, you know, I've also been very curious about how people who live in urban areas feel about the climate crisis. Especially as we have, you know, kind of like a better lifestyle, as it were.

So, I've actually just started a new research project, working with Dr. Charles Ogunbode. You might know him, where we're investigating climate emotions in West African cities. So it's kind of, you know, that curiosity to find out, okay, what really is at play. Especially for young people who live, you know, in cities, and having said that, we're also very cognizant of our history. Yeah, when I got into this work ten, eight years ago, and got to learn about, you know, about "Ken" Saro-Wiwa, got to learn about, you know, the Niger Delta. I was just kind of enveloped with so much anger, and so much kind of grief to see that we lost people who have such passion, who really cared about their people, just, you know, in the face of corrupt and oppressive leadership. And while that's scary, we live in an age where that is not as expected as it should be. Because we're now in a democracy and whatnot, social media. You know, there's so many things that help us kind of achieve our activism. But definitely, when you remember that I think what that does to us, it empowers you to want to do more. You know, to want to be more radical, more revolutionary to kind of push the limits and to demand for what's right.

And, you know, I see that even in kind of the ideologies and things that I believe in, and what we've kind of cultivated at SustyVibes in terms of how do we, for example, understand what an energy transition means for us. You know, it's an energy transition. We want to ask: are there principles around justice and equity? Are they being, you know, put into some of these big words that we hear. Because it's really about our futures really about, you know, how we get to live in 10, 15 years time. So that's how we think about, you know, this conversation. Really thinking about our place. And, you know, how we can continue to, you know, demand for what's right in ways that feel authentic to us.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks a lot, Jennifer, for sharing that. And with Charles Ogunbode, we had the pleasure of discussing a couple of episodes back and heard a little bit about this very interesting research project about climate emotions in West and East Africa. And glad to hear that you're, Jennifer, part of that. And what I hear from you is that these things really come close to you in Nigeria, and for Nigerian young people. And the timescale in which very major potential threats are seen, that's much shorter than in some of the places in Northern Europe, where I'm living, for example. And then also the very understandable, righteous anger and sense of injustice related to these tragic happenings. And unjust uses of power, for example, in Nigerian history.

And you have also written yourself that you have often encountered feelings of anger and powerlessness among young people in relation to these global complex crises as the climate crisis is. So, could you share a bit about the spectrum of climate emotions you encounter in the people you work with and meet. So, it seems that this anger, helplessness, that's one part of the spectrum, but what all is there? Could you say a bit about [that]?

Uchendu: Absolutely. And yeah, because when you hear, you know, the work that we do. The name of our organization is SustyVibes, you know, we kind of designed our mission around youth energy, youth passion. And around having fun. Around kind of building our agency from what makes us young people. And so our projects have really been designed around, rather than having, you know, technical workshops, let's host a party instead. When we think about advocacy, can we have an exhibition or a movie screening? So there's really been the idea of relaxation and fun incorporated in our idea of, you know, sustainability advocacy.

But I mentioned in 2019, we saw kind of like a shift. That even though we're doing all of these really exciting things, we still felt, you know, a sense of overwhelm. I personally felt, you know, that we're just up against so much when it comes to the climate crisis. Especially when you see, you know, we felt like, you know, a tiny 0.00001, you know, fraction of the change that was needed to turn things around. And that feeling, that kind of narrative oftentimes brought us down. You know, it made us feel kind of very weak and very small. So, you know, and that side by side with feelings of anger. Anger because we're like, why do we have to work so hard? Why do we have to, you know, give up a lot of things, you know, to be these people we are. Climate activists per se. And, you know, the world just kind of goes on. Some people would never have to deal with it. So you would see that kind of, you know, drag and weight. Weight of, you know, building of hope, as it's where we're feeling as young people at SustyVibes. And I thought it was really interesting, because it wasn't until I got to the UK that I was able to, you know, put the two emotions together to see that young people in the UK were feeling, you know, things like shame and guilt. And I was like, what am I ashamed of? You know, I'm angry. You know, it's a different thing on this site.

I thought it was really interesting to see how even just context power and privilege and positionality just changes the way, you know, the emotions you get to encounter when it comes to the climate crisis. So in that spectrum, there are days, you know, we talk about days where we feel super hopeful. Where we feel excited, you know, about the work that we do when we go out to the streets. When we go tree planting, and communities, you know, adopt the trees. And, you know, commit to looking after them, because it's important for them, you know. We're really excited about the work that we do. And every SustyViber, you know, kind of has that mindset put in them. That we do really good work for the environment. But there are days where, you know, it's all gloomy, and you hear the news, you know, you see something happening and you're just sad all over again. You're like where do we kind of go on from here?

So it's definitely a spectrum. Where we kind of oscillate from, you know, really hopeful and joyful moments to days where we feel completely powerless, and we don't want to do anything, you know, after all. And I think it's okay, you know, to have all of those feelings. The important thing is learning how to safeguard them. Learning how to hold, you know, both spectrums of the emotions. And just pushing forward every day. And showing up to be, you know, better, more responsible humans as it were. So that's the mindset we now take into our work.

Doherty: That's very well said. That's very well said. When I think of vibes. I was hearing someone talk about vibing just the other day. You know, to vibe with someone. You know, you talk about SustyVibes. You know, to vibe with someone is to really feel comfortable with them. To feel light. To feel happy. To be in the present moment. To feel safe. Right? That's how we talk about it in terms of our personal relationships, right?

So that's, I think, something we need to think about. How do we bring that energy into our work when we're working on these super heavy, wicked problems? And I don't know, I think old people forget about that. But, you know, younger people are still making the world. You know, they're still finding the world. Why don't you say more. I know, you have a lot of things you want to express about your work. Do you want to talk about some of your projects, or some of your research?

Uchendu: Yeah, for sure. And even just to touch on, you know, the idea of SustyVibes. You know, when I came into this work, you know, thinking about sustainable development, I had someone who said that even the concept of sustainable development sounds like an oxymoron. Because development is all about growth. And then you're talking about sustainability. You know, where do you find balance? And I was looking to create something, you know, that is really about making sustainability actionable, relatable, and also cool. So that it doesn't sound, you know, like things that don't fit together. So that we see it as a possibility. You know, where we don't, you know, see a sustainable idea and innovation, and we think, oh, this is, you know, completely foreign and impossible for us.

And that really has been that mindset. So it's about being comfortable making it, you know, part of our everyday lifestyle to talk about these issues. You know, to say, I'm a tree hugger. And that doesn't make me weird, you know, per se. I am a tree hugger because I believe that, you know, I'm a big part of nature. And whatever I do, you know, fits into the larger ecosystem. And that really has been, you know, the mindset we put into our work. So it's also funny, you talk about, you know, older people, elders, you know, intergenerational kind of work. I think it was sometime last year that we got into a project with Stanford University, and a couple of collaborators. Britt Wray, you know, looking really at what is the power in conversations around, you know, climate emotions. And thinking about how conversations and dialogue even among young people, and older people might be useful to help us kind of navigate these very difficult emotions.

And we've started a project. Intervention for Lago. It's happening both in Lagos, the UK and the US. And it's been interesting to see even older people talk about these difficult emotions that they have also had to cope with, deal with. But at the same time, they've not found, you know, ways to express them as we now have as young people. And it's just been really interesting to see them, you know, kind of offer advice or resilience. But at the same time, look to us to see how even in expressing emotions. In validating emotions, we find strength, you know, to cope through, you know, what, we're all going through as, you know, in the climate crisis. And that has kind of brought off an offshoot of a project we're now about to start, where we're looking for, you know, climate activists who are now older people over 60 in Nigeria, who have for a very long time been doing this work. Trying to see what narratives they've held on to for a very long time that has kept them to kind of continue and you know, pull through. And have that kind of march on mindset. That you just have to continue pouring in yourself to do this work.

And that, you know, ties really well with the topic, you know, the theme of this podcast. These elders have found joy in their work even though it's difficult. You know, they've found joy. And they've been able to hold both feelings of suffering and pain, with joy and, you know, accomplishments and achievements over time. And I think there are opportunities for us to also learn, you know, from our elders. And from older people when it comes to the climate crisis. So we're really excited to be doing that work with Stanford University, and you know, in Nigeria, as well. So I just wanted to touch on that.

Pihkala: Thank you, Jennifer. That's very profound and great to hear that you have made openings in this intergenerational dialogue. And one of the very sad things that can happen around climate issues is that there may be generational disputes. Or between people who have or seem to have different kinds of attitudes and behaviors. So there's a lot of bridge building needed in communities. And it's always great to hear when people have good experiences of that. It also sounds like you have been able to get away from others, to remain open to this full spectrum of life, all the different emotions as you, as you say. And I'm very much appreciating that you explicitly acknowledge the oscillation escalation between various moods.

And in my own research work about the various journeys that people have with climate emotions and different dimensions, the fact of oscillation has been very important there. So trying to validate that it's a very normal thing which happens. And also advocating that we need distancing in a healthy sense. So self care and community care and relaxation. So I hear a lot of things happening with SustyVibes that I've also been discussing in the more theoretical work. So very good to hear.

Uchendu: Thank you.

Doherty: Yeah. Jennifer, when you talk, I mean, a lot of this, I think, for the listeners, for everyone is, really. Well, we talk about environmental identity. So we have an identity about [this]. Part of our identity is how I relate to nature and the natural world. And it's claiming that identity, whatever that means for us. And it's always intersecting with all of our other cultural and gender and sexual identities. And, you know, so you're talking about claiming your environmental identity as a Nigerian person. And, as, I'm not sure how you think of yourself. And maybe as a young woman, or whatever terms that you know, you use. You're claiming this and helping other people. And other young people claim this. And, you know, it's cool, it's good, it's fun. It's important. It's not weird, as you say.

I started with this. And I used to take American young people out into the woods in the US for their therapy. And my co worker said, well what about me? How does this work for me as an adult? And that's how I got into my own idea of sustainable self, right? Personal sustainability. So like, we take our abstract sustainability ideas about the world and put it to our own life, you know. So it makes no sense to run ourselves down and burn ourselves out to save the planet. Because we are part of nature, you know, yeah. So that was my equation at the time. This idea of personal sustainability. Sustainable self. Your equation is SustyVibes. What other things in Nigeria and other parts of the world in terms of creating their own visions? Or what do you see about it?

Uchendu: Yeah, for sure. I've had young people come up to me to say, even just the concept of SustyVibes has inspired them to start, you know, new initiatives where they just think in terms of possibilities. You know, as you mentioned, you know, sustainable futures. And what that would look like. And that, for me, has been just very fulfilling to see. You know, that this concept or this idea resonates with a lot of people. When we host a party, for example, and we have lots of people sign up and attend, it's very validating.

And even with SustyVibes, our eco anxiety work is channeled through something called the Eco Anxiety Africa Project. Which we started last year in February actually. And the amount of you know, how many people have embraced you know, that project. Have reached out. Have, you know, felt very validated. Have said, oh, we needed this for a very long time. And I've had even older environmentalists say, eco anxiety has been with us for a very long time. We've just not had a word, you know, to define and kind of conceptualize it. So it feels good to, you know, see people see these initiatives and this project and, you know, just fully embrace it. And say they feel validated. You know, they feel kind of empowered to say that they are not crazy to have all of these emotions. That these are real human experiences that make us human. And it's even within these emotions, that we find strengths to act for, you know, environmental protection. So I think that has been really useful for us. Yeah.

Doherty: Yeah. Anxiety as an ally. You know, it's a normal part of our emotional equipment to feel anxious about threats. And I think, traditionally, sustainability, like you talk about sustainable development, is very intellectual. It's very economic. It's very reductionistic. Even people that understand science and conservation. Wildlife conservation. A lot of these people have silently suffered because of [being] scientists themselves. And the economists and the activists haven't had that emotional language. So it is really empowering to be able to share these things. And then not feel like you're weak or less than or not as rigorous and things like that.

Uchendu: Absolutely. Yeah.

Pihkala: Yeah. And it's very important, sort of public work, and public witness. And I've heard similar things from older people in Finland. Now that for the last six years, we've had more discussion about eco emotions in Finland. So they have been [coming] to me. And my colleagues say that, you know, in the early 1970s, with the oil crisis, we did feel this kind of anxiety already then. But there were just no words for it. So that seems to be a thing to be discussed in various parts of the world. How to connect the generations with some more active now and then the older ones. And find ways to join forces. And what about elsewhere in Africa? I know that's a huge continent. But do you have some sort of friend organizations in countries or areas nearby? So how's the scene around that?

Uchendu: Yeah, for sure. I mean, the projects, the research projects, I'm working with Dr. Charles Ogunbode, looking at Anglophone West Africa. And with every organization, we've reached out to collaborate. You know, they've said, you know, yes, this is something that's been needed. This is a gap, you know, in our work. We've done kind of climate adaptation, or mitigation in ways that have been very much about kind of infrastructure, or funding. You know, economics of things without looking at the social fabric. You know, our well being. And what adaptation means through and through. And it's been very, you know, good to see, you know, project partners. So with TEAP [The Eco-anxiety in Africa Project], what we've done is to host monthly webinars.

And we've tried to find, you know, people in other parts of Africa who resonate with this idea. So we've had, you know, webinars with collaborators in Kenya. You know, we have one later this weekend with collaborators in Egypt, you know, who want to explore things like empathy. And how it, you know, really supports us in, you know, navigating climate anxiety, eco anxiety. So it's been very interesting, you know, to see that kind of spectrum. You know, there's folks in Ghana, who are using the arts to also explore, you know, this topic. And so you see, when you see all of these projects coming up, you're excited because it kind of resonates deep. And it shows that we're making progress.

We are now kind of filling the gap. Filling the knowledge gap to have more about these conversations, because advocacy is key. The next level would be, how do we then put this into policy? How do our environmental and health ministries, you know, come together to look at how to really support people when we talk about climate adaptation? So it's, you know, it's been refreshing to see, you know, this new direction, and this conversation. And one thing I didn't talk about is, SustyVibes as part of the consortium working on, you know, the really global dialogues on climate and mental health with the Wellcome Trust. And we're really looking forward to leading a lot of these projects, you know, particularly in the Global South. Working with all of our consortium partners in _____ University and whatnot. So it's, it's been good to see that this direction, this attention, and all of these opportunities are coming up to do this kind of work.

Doherty: Yeah, this is great. This is a great, great conversation. We're coming to the end of our time. And I think we really succeeded in Jennifer, just learning a little bit about you and your work. You know, practically for the listeners, what you're hearing is how to deal with eco anxiety. You know, it is painful. It is scary. It is overwhelming, but we don't eliminate it, we simply add additional emotions to help support. So on each side of my anxiety, I have empathy. and I have my positive vibrations. And I have my relationships, right? And I have my hope. So it's not black and white. It's about multiple emotions in harmony. And then that anxiety kind of has its place. But it's not alone.

And then, of course, one thing we might do in the future, all of us, is do some sort of geography of eco anxiety. You know, because different regions have different variations. Jennifer, you're not tapping into the shame that someone maybe in some more privileged places tap into. So there's a geography of this as well. But I really appreciate your time. And Panu I know you're working on how to cope. [Do] you want to click close us off with some comments today, Panu?

Pihkala: Well, warm thanks, Jennifer, for your time. And all this lived wisdom you are bringing both to this conversation and for the places where you are working together with others. So there's been great content in relation to helpful coping with emotions. Which are sort of embodied methods happening both in oneself and together with others. So one warm thanks, Jennifer, for all that.

Uchendu: Thanks so much, Panu and Thomas.

Doherty: Yeah. And I'm gonna get started with my day here and in Northwestern US. Panue, you have your evening. Jennifer, what's the rest of your day hold for you?

Uchendu: I have one last meeting for the day. And I will just wrap up. Yeah, it's almost 6pm here.

Doherty: All right. So you still have some work to do before you can get healthy. Thanks again, Jennifer. We'll have a number of good links in our show notes. And we'll be getting this episode out soon.

Uchendu: Thank you.

Doherty: Thank you all and to the listeners.

Uchendu: Thanks. Bye.

Pihkala: Take care. Bye bye.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

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image credit | Genaro Molina

Season 2, Episode 12: Art Gives Ecological Grief a Body with Daniela MolnarThomas and Panu were joined by artist and poet Daniela Molnar, who creates her paintings using scientific records of glacier retreat in the Cascade range and natural paints and pigments she gathers near her home and in her wilderness journeys. The trio discussed how art making is one way to “enfranchise” climate grief that otherwise goes unrecognized, where in Daniela’s case she confronts forces of grief and wonder, in dynamic interplay. “Making paint is a kind of ecology,” Daniela observed. When making your own pigment the “world becomes full of colors,” rocks and plants gain agency and different waters from rain or sea behave in a way that is very much alive. Daniela evoked the creative tension apparent in regeneration of damaged landscapes where a “wound is simultaneously an injury and a process of healing.”

“When we talk about non-resolution in a work of art and how it has that dynamic equilibrium, that's what beauty is. It's that tension. And the world is beautiful. You know, the world is incredibly beautiful. Even as it's incredibly wounded. And to allow ourselves to experience both fully is really a way to live in the world. And live our lives fully. And live in a way that moves us into different cultural territory that I think is essential.”

Links* Daniela Molnar + Instagram + Video on her art method + Media + Poetry - Reading at Round Weather Gallery, February 23, 2023 * Projects in Finland between atmospheric scientists and visual artists * Siperstein, Hall and LeMenager 2016 Teaching Climate Change in the Humanities

TranscriptTranscript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Please support the Climate Change and Happiness Podcast. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Thomas Doherty

Please support the Climate Change and Happiness Podcast. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. This is a show for people around the world who are thinking and feeling deeply about global climate change and other environmental issues that are affecting us as people around the world. And here we really get into our different kinds of feelings and our different kinds of emotions. We go deep into that. It's a rare opportunity and we're really glad to have it.

Please make sure to find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. And please support us on our Patreon. And – we've had a theme about art and creativity that Panu and I are very close to. Today we're really lucky to have a guest.

Daniela Molnar: Hello, my name is Daniela Molnar. And I'm an artist, a poet and a writer. And I work with themes of climate change and climate grief. I work a lot with natural pigments. And I'm delighted to be here. Thank you.

Doherty: It's really great to have Daniela. I met Daniela a couple of years ago when she was teaching at one of the art institutes here in Portland. And we had a talk on eco-anxiety and climate change. And so I've been able to track her work a little bit. And also interact with her in terms of general therapeutic work for people in climate and environment.

But I've been really excited to explore Daniela's process and to learn how she makes her work. And so we're going to talk about that on a number of levels today. And listeners, you can think about your own creative life in various ways as this comes up. Panu, I know you're interested in this too, do you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Yes, warmly welcome, Daniela also for my part. Very nice to meet you. This is the first day that we meet you. We just had a brief conversation and found out that we have something in common. We both know a little Hungarian. You have much stronger roots there, but I've got some family connections also.

But we would like to start with your journey with climate change. I know that you've been doing many things in relation to it. But would you like to share something of your journey?

Molnar: Sure. Thank you for the question. I think that my journey with climate change, and it has changed a lot over time, began probably when I was an undergraduate. I studied both art and environmental studies. And I actually focused more on environmental studies for a variety of reasons. So this was the late 90s. And I was learning about climate change sort of as this big thing that we knew about, but it didn't have nearly the same sort of scope or emotional impact that it has now. But I was working with forest ecologists in the Pacific Northwest who were starting to recognize the enormous impacts that climate change was having. And it really impacted me on a deep level. And it also was the kind of thing that, and I think many people feel this, where I was like, well, I'm not sure what to do. And that feeling stayed with me for many years.

My life went through various twists and turns. And I ended up teaching, as Thomas noted, at an art school in Portland [PNCA]. And I started a program there in 2016 called Art and Ecology. And in that program art students were able to learn about ecological issues and use it as a lens with which to fuel their art. And in putting together that program, the core course focused on climate change. For obvious reasons. Climate change is this issue that touches on every other issue. Every other social issue, political issue, environmental issue, cultural issue. It's an incredibly complicated and vast topic.

So I use that as the core course to orient us to these ideas. And in putting that course together, I just went deep into climate change research. And, frankly, went into a state of profound climate grief. I was so overwhelmed. Completely just struck by the things that I was reading. And had no idea what to do with it. And then was in this position of trying to teach it. And those circumstances put me in a position of really needing to work through what I was experiencing with my art, as I was trying to teach others to do the same. So that's a little bit about how I came to where I am now. And that's still really very much what I'm doing with my work.

Pihkala: Thank you very much for sharing that. So it's quite a journey. And you already described many of the emotional tones you had and the earlier what should I do about this. Which on one hand, is a sort of question of what can be called practical anxiety. You know, there's some problem which has some uncertainty in it. And it leads people to ask: what's my relation to this? And what should I do?

But it really sounds like it struck you much more forcefully during that time when you were reading science. And then having this difficult role where you have to do something with other people. Which is a responsible position. And then one may be quite torn by the almost traumatic consequences of the information. And this is something that many environmental educators I know have been struggling with. So thanks for sharing that intimately.

Molnar: Yeah, I think that teaching is, you know, it offers an opportunity to really work through these issues in a forum. I like to think of any teaching environment as a community in which I don't have, and this became very clear to me when I was trying to teach about climate change, I don't have the answers. You know, as the teacher, I'm not the authority. I'm working through it with everyone. And I'm grateful, even though it was a very difficult course to teach. I'm so grateful for the opportunity that I had to teach it because it really put me into a position in which I was able to more fully feel these issues. And feel them in community with my students. And they taught me a lot. And I'm grateful for that.

Doherty: Yeah, this is great. I, you know, as we were planning our discussion, I was thinking about my use as not a professional artist as but my use of art personally from my own coping and identity. Environmental identity and sense of place. But also helping other people use this. And teaching therapists how to do art therapy, essentially. And then for the listeners, there's different kinds of listeners for this episode. Some people are just curious about this. Other people might be professional artists doing their own work and their own sort of hero's journey with their art process.

So it seems to me there's two levels with this. There's the level one which is just art therapy, where we use even existing works of art, famous paintings, poems, you know, music. Panu and I did our music episode. We use these as ways to channel and express ourselves. And to find solace. And find, you know, comfort and universality that other people have tried these paths across times and places. And so that's really helpful. And it's relatively simple, although obviously, some artwork can be super challenging and really raucous. I mean, you know, what is it? Kafka has a quote about you know, art should be the ax that smashes the frozen sea within us. Or something like that, you know. So some artwork, obviously, is very challenging. But then there's the other level where people are actually on a path of creation. Where you don't know where it's going to go.

And I know, Panu you've talked about it, it can be really challenging. And I know your work. And so we can kind of maybe go in two directions here. About how people can, you know, find solace. But also maybe at some point today, I want Daniela to tell us literally how you make some of your pieces so people can really understand this process for you. Where do you think we should go? Any thoughts?

Molnar: Yeah, well, maybe I'll just touch on the idea of art. I think of art engaging with our either making it or engaging with art that others have made. And when I use the term art, I'm using it really broadly. Like, to me, the differences between a painting and a poem and a song are really just differences of kind, not of substance. So any type of art, I think, is a conduit. It's an opening. And it's a way to connect with someone who may have been dead for hundreds of years. And yet, still, you're connecting with the spirit of this person. And that may sound abstract or, you know, difficult to understand. But it's not something that I think needs to be understood. It's something that we feel. And because it's something that we feel, and I think it's just a very, very basic part of the human experience. It exists in all cultures, throughout time. It's accessible to everyone. Whether you make art or interact with art. It's a way to open up to someone else's spirit. And when you open up to someone else's spirit, you're also opening up to your own. So I think that there's always that available.

And I think, to me, it's one of the most beautiful things about humans. That we've made this culture in which we can freely share across generations and geographies and vast stretches of time. And I do think that it's a wonderful tool to use to more fully understand, you know, who we are and what we're doing with our lives. And then as you touch on, there's a difference between, you know, getting out some markers and some crayons and just letting yourself play. Or I think coloring books are a wonderful way to just let yourself play. And kind of turn off your conscious mind and get in touch with that spiritual and non rational part of ourselves that gets neglected so often.

And then there's, you know, making art a central part of one's life. And building an art practice and an art practice is, you know, it's a daily commitment that really is core to my experience. In which every single day I'm waking up and dedicating myself to the act of making art. And in doing that, very difficult things come up in that process. I don't think there's anywhere to hide in making art. There's no shadows that you can, you know, crouch behind. Anything that you're experiencing, is going to come up if you're making art in an honest way. And that brings its own challenges. It also brings tremendous possibilities.

So you alluded to the ways that I actually make the paintings, which I think is really, really important. And it does kind of open up this double sidedness of what I think of in my art as like this force of grief. And this force of wonder. And wonder and grief are always in dynamic interplay in how I'm working constantly. On a moment to moment basis. In the paintings themselves. So I make a lot of my own pigments from natural materials. And pretty much anything in the world can make a pigment. Which means pretty much anything in the world can be painted. And if you're walking down, you know, a street in the middle of the city, something's going to be there that can make pigment. So it really changes how one sees the world when you start to make your own pigments. And that the world becomes full of colors. In a way that's different from, you know, just seeing colors as like surfaces. But it becomes like a depth to the world.

And then I also combine the pigments that I make with waters that are from different sources. So rainwater, river water, tap water, ocean water. When I'm lucky enough to be by hot springs, hot springs water. And when you mix all these different things together, the paints that arise are really different in how they operate when you're actually using them in a painting. They behave in ways that are a little unpredictable and very, very alive. And what this pigment making process has taught me is that the materials that I'm actually using, many of which are rocks and plants to make the pigments, they're extremely alive. And they have their own agency. I'm not saying that they necessarily have their own minds. They don't have consciousnesses like human consciousness, but they have an agency that's very alive.

And when I'm making paint from water, which also has its own agency. And a rock, which has its own agency. and I'm combining them and putting them into a painting in which I'm trying to work through confusion and grief and challenging, you know, emotions and spiritual conundrums of all sorts. The rocks, and the water will often show me things that I couldn't have arrived at on my own. And often what they're showing me is this combination of grief and wonder or beauty and violence. That is simultaneous. And I think where it brings me in my work is this very fundamental, but difficult to hold onto, idea which is that in any exchange, in every single moment in our lives, we're constantly in this binary between, you know, how absolutely challenging the world is, and how absolutely beautiful the world is. And that our minds really want to have certainty. And so our minds want to go either towards the beauty or the horror. Neither one is more true than the other. And they're both utterly true.

And if I'm able, in my art making, or in interacting with other peoples art to engage with that non resolution, then I'm able to stay hopeful. And I'm able to stay open. And I'm able to allow myself to continue to experience the world and all its fullness. And that's really important for me specifically in relation to climate issues.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for all that. That's very fascinating and feels most important. And I can resonate with many parts of that myself. And I know many people who are searching for this difficult balance. Or actually the balancing act. I think it's a kind of dialectical thinking that you're sort of, there's some oscillation between opposing poles, so to speak. And out of that the fullness of life may emerge in all its colors to use this kind of expression. Co-creation is another word that came to mind. Both related to the teaching and education dynamic.

Stephen Siperstein is a very interesting climate educator and a poet who has written in a fascinating way about the interactive character of climate education. And becoming more aware of the problems of hierarchical attitudes towards education. And being open to what can be co-learned and co-created in the moment. And what you, Daniela, say about agency of the colors, and different elements of nature, there seems to be a co-creation, there, also

Molnar: Yeah, that's beautifully put. Absolutely. It's the co-creation or co-learning that I referenced with my students, which is ongoing. Anytime I teach, that's the case, is absolutely also the case with the pigments in the water, and the paint. That I'm co-learning and co-creating with them. And it really is a feeling of non-aloneness, which is important. Like it's this sense of being part of the world. And part of a human community. But also a more than human community. Which is, I think, completely essential to working through some of these very challenging emotions that come up around climate change.

Doherty: Yeah, I'm struck by a lot of parallels between other conversations we've been having. We had a great conversation with Kim Stafford, the poet, about him speaking in the voice of other parts of nature. And also connecting with children and their sense of wonder. And reconnecting as adults with our own sense of wonder. And then this other darker, more challenging theme of, you know, the penalties of an ecological education is living in a world of wounds.

So once we get curious about this stuff, and want to actually go to a glacier and see what's going on. And actually, experientially, you know, visit these places, it opens us up to this knowledge that then can, you know, as they say, things can't be unseen and unknown. So it is this rite of passage. I was talking to an old friend who was visiting and he's working in Antarctica. And he was telling me about it. We looked at the map of Antarctica from the South Pole, which I typically don't do, and he showed all the geology of the place. And explained why these glaciers and ice sheets are so important to the planet and plate tectonics and many things that I just never grasped. And he's been to Antarctica 23 times. And sits with this all the time. And there are people out there around the world, event listeners, who are sitting with this tough knowledge. Yeah. So, Daniela, I mean, you do go, part of your work is traveling into nature. And going to places. That's part of your gathering of the materials and gathering of your own experience.

Molnar: Yeah, it is. And it's an important part for me. You know, sometimes finding pigments means walking down the alleys in my neighborhood in the city. But oftentimes, it means going into wilderness areas. And I had the opportunity to go to Alaska, and hang out with some glaciers this summer. Which was profound. And I also lead others into wilderness areas and teach others how to do that themselves. Because I do think it's an extremely important activity that is its own type of creative practice. Because you are exposed to what could be seen as a wounded world. It is a wounded world. And there's no way to get around that when you start to know what you're seeing.

But I also think it's important to note that a wound, you know, if you cut your finger, that wound instantly starts healing. A wound is both, you know, the injury and it's instantly the process of healing simultaneously. And the same is true in wounds in the world. You know, even if that wound keeps recurring, which often it does with environmental issues. There's also a constant process of regeneration and rebuilding. And both of those things, I think, are really evident when we're able to, make ourselves open to these places and be in them fully.

Pihkala: That's very profound, I think. And reminds me of many things. The journalist Dahr Jamail, while traveling around the world and writing about that in his book, The End of Ice, for example. Several other examples. But perhaps what I'd most like to ask now is the link between what we started with you're telling of the journey towards the reading of climate science and teaching, and then the art practice? So how did it go for you? Did your sort of body or body mind start doing things with art and climate change? And how much was that conscious? And would you tell us something about that transformation period?

Molnar: Yeah, thank you, Panu. I think that whereas I have a background in scientific illustration. And I've worked with scientists in various contexts. So the way that I initially started working with climate change visually, was to actually rely on the visualization of data. By which I mean, I was looking at how the shapes of glaciers are changing. Most of them are dramatically receding. And I started painting that shape of what's been lost. And they're sort of elegies. But I was also, at the beginning, trying to communicate information. Really trying to kind of sort through it myself. And that's not exactly what happened. I don't think I arrived in the process of doing that at all.

I think what I arrived at was first a far deeper engagement with climate grief than I ever thought I would be able to do or withstand. But I did do it and I did withstand it. And as I've come out through the hardest parts of that reckoning, I've also come out, understanding that the art that I'm making doesn't need to explain anything. I think that the work you two are doing in this podcast, and then your own practices is crucial. Because I really do feel like some of the core work of climate change is cultural work. I think we need to feel our way through this as much as we need to think our way through this. And so what I'm doing with my paintings at this point is trying to welcome viewers into an emotional engagement with these ideas rather than present more information. And the colors are a huge way to do that.

I do think that the, you know, the stones and the flowers that I'm using communicate something directly to our bodies that can't necessarily and doesn't need to be put into words. And I think that people, through art, whether mine or someone else's, can kind of bypass the parts of our brains that want to find answers or find reasons or find ways to learn and justify or, etc. And just feel whatever needs to be felt in that moment. Which opens up space. It opens up space for whatever is going to happen next.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, one thing that we were thinking about for this episode, as well as just getting the idea of grief and ambiguous grief and disenfranchised grief. And so I think that's a place to maybe round up our talk today. You know, we've talked about this in the podcast, you know, grief is, you know, a feeling. You know, that when something either has been lost, is currently being lost, or we can also have anticipatory grief about things that we're going to lose. Even in the greatest moments of our lives, we already have an anticipatory grief that this is going to end. It's part of the human condition.

But with climate change, we've got this happening writ large. You know, so it's very ambiguous. What am I? What am I actually mourning? Is it something in myself? Is it something outside? And this disenfranchised grief, you know, when someone cuts down a tree, and I feel for it, but there's no way to have that be recognized in the culture. But so some of this is to flip it around, it's enfranchising the grief. Right? So it's giving it a place. I heard a quote, grief is love with no place to live or something like that, you know. So maybe we can end this idea of enfranchising, you know, giving. I'll have to look at the definition of the franchise, but it's giving something a role, power, agency. So, enfranchising, grief or other feelings.

Molnar: Yeah, that's great. I love that. I mean, I do think climate grief is a type of disenfranchised grief. And one thing that art does, is it does, it gives it a body, essentially. A painting is an actual, you know, body where these feelings can live. And I think that art is uniquely competent at also holding ambiguity and not not requiring resolution. So a painting, or a piece of music or a poem, thrive on what isn't resolved. Like that's the beauty of most art is these competing forces within it. And that, you know, holding those in dynamic equilibrium in a painting allows us to do the same. It allows us to feel both the grief and the wonder. And it allows us to understand that those are both very present in our lives. and that both deserve attention. And in ourselves. But we can bring ourselves fully to both.

Pihkala: That's wonderfully put , I think. Thanks for that. And also, Thomas, for what you spoke about earlier. And I'm leading a course at the University of Helsinki I designed about eco anxiety and various disciplines. So one could call it ecological distress or whatever. So one lecture is about various forms of grief and loss and sadness. And one is about art, or art-based methods where I'm inviting people who know more about that than ma. Of course, I do have some art practice myself. But my dear colleague Henrika Ylirisku, for example, who has been exploring the many possible functions that art can have in relation to ecological themes and climate. And sometimes challenging us. And sometimes providing opportunities to explore something. And we may still not get it after we leave the room. That is what has actually happened.

So I completely agree that there's great potential. And we don't always need to, or are even not able to, rationally name it. That's what's going on. But still it's important. And enfranchising grief is a great line. And I was just thinking about your ambiguous loss. And perhaps an ambiguous choice might be named also. That's related to the normativity around climate emotions. And some people are struggling that I cannot express joy, because the situation is so gloomy. And what I hear you say, Daniela, is that we should really give room and space for all kinds of feelings, including joy. Am I right? This is, of course, also my opinion.

Molnar: I think you're absolutely right. And yeah, I love that. I love that you brought up that phrase with ambiguous joy. Because joy is different from happiness. and grief is different from sadness, right? Both are far larger and more complicated. And I think it is more elemental to the human experience. But yeah, ambiguous joy, we need joy in our lives. And I think that beauty is both of those things, you know.

When we talk about non resolution in a work of art and how it has that dynamic equilibrium, that's what beauty is. It's that tension. And the world is beautiful. You know, the world is incredibly beautiful. Even as it's incredibly wounded. And to allow ourselves to experience both fully is really a way to live in the world. And live our lives fully. And live in a way that moves us into different cultural territory that I think is essential.

Doherty: Yeah, that's a beautiful way to kind of bring us back to our mission statement for this podcast. You know, Climate Change and Happiness. What does it mean to feel happier? To feel these kinds of things. And this idea of ambiguous joy is something we're groping toward and all these episodes. But I thought we did a great job, coming back to the feelings. And the core work here through art and through a conversation of art. So Daniela, thank you so much for coming in. This is just a taste of your work. But we'll have some links and a great video of your process on our show notes. And I really wish you luck with your shows in Oakland coming up this new year. Thank you very much for joining us.

Molnar: Thanks so much for having me. And thanks for the work you're doing.

Pihkala: It's been a great pleasure. All the best and all you listeners take care also.

Doherty: Yeah, so keep in touch with us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. We are a self-funded volunteer organization, so please support us so we can keep bringing you these messages of coping and ambiguous joy. And see our donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com or at Patreon. You all take care. Bye bye.

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image credit | The Process of Eco-Anxiety and Ecological Grief - graphics by Anne Palm

Season 2, Episode 11: A New Perspective on Eco-anxiety and Grief

In this episode, Panu shared insights from his major new paper The Process of Eco-Anxiety and Ecological Grief. In a dialog with Thomas, Panu described stages like the “semi-consciousness” we experience as we come into awareness of the severity of the ecological crisis and the shocks that can follow an environmental awakening. He explained how healthy coping requires a balance of taking action, expressing emotions like grief, and creating healthy distance by taking breaks. Thomas gave examples of people he has observed going through these stages and processes. Coping with eco-anxiety and ecological grief is a journey. Join us to learn new tools.

Links

• Panu Pihkala 2023 The Process of Eco-Anxiety and Ecological Grief: A Narrative Review and a New Proposal

  • Brief presentation
  • Panu also recommends:
  • Seminal article from Edwards & Buzzell (2008): The Waking Up Syndrome
  • Blanche Verlie (2022 book, open access): Learning to Live with Climate Change
  • Good Grief Network 10-Steps to Personal Resilience & Empowerment in a Chaotic Climate

• From Thomas: Contrary to the popular myth, ostriches do not bury their head in the sand when scared or frightened.

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Please support the Climate Change and Happiness Podcast. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello. I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. The podcast for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change. In particular, their emotions. Their emotional responses. And you can find us a climatechangeandhappiness.com. And you could support us at our Patreon.

And today, I'm talking with Panu. And Panu, I know, one of our interests for us personally and for the listeners is the journey that we're all on in terms of our understanding of climate change. And particularly our emotional coping. And how we make sense. And how we deal with some of these issues and threats and stuff like that. And I know you've been working on a really big kind of what I would say a wisdom piece. A paper that you're pulling together a lot of the research and ideas for other scholars. And, you know, for other academics and researchers, but you're also, you know, have this model. Pulling together things that I think is really, practically useful for people. So we're talking about that today. And we're going to jump into that. Wherever you want to start with that. Either the background or currently what's on top of your mind. And we'll just chat about this today.

Pihkala: Thank you Thomas. In 2019 in Finland, I published a second book of mine about eco emotions and eco-anxiety [Mieli maassa? Ympäristötunteet]. So that one was a sort of handbook about various feelings and emotions that we may experience in relation to environmental issues and [the] more than human world. And in that book, I had a quite rudimentary model of the process of encountering the ecological state of the world. So that could be called the process of eco distress or process of eco-anxiety. And that quite simple graphic finger was very helpful for many people. I got good feedback from that. So that caused me to think about whether that could be elaborated more. Because that wasn't a product of a long thinking process, rather something I decided at the end of writing the book.

So then, especially from the beginning of 2021, I started thinking about this more seriously. And also, I had read many writings about the topic which were using a very famous stages model. Namely, the five stages of grief, by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, going back to the turn of the 1960s and 70s. And that's still by far the most famous model or frame of grief around the world. So often, people from various fields know about that. And I guess, Thomas, that was probably part of your training as a psychologist also. So do you remember when you first came across Kübler Ross's model?

Doherty: No, I don't remember because I think it's one of those things that's in society. And in pop culture. And so we absorb it. And then we take it as a given, like Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Or one of these kinds of things. But they're not necessarily even literally true. Or they might have been, you know, surpassed by other ideas in academia. But these kind of stand the test of time. People need a roadmap. They need some sort of model. So, you were inspired by this, but I think you're going beyond this. Or you're taking this another step forward.

Pihkala: Yeah, you're exactly right. So the Kübler-Ross model. Which is sometimes called DABDA, after the initials of the so-called stages. There's denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. You know, those are things that may happen when people encounter grief and distress. But then, as Thomas well knows, scholars of grief and bereavement have criticized the model since the beginning, for a couple of reasons. One is that not all people go through all of these things.

And the second one is that in practice, many people get the idea that this is linear. That, you know, I should move from denial to anger and bargaining and depression and acceptance. And the third point is that sometimes in contemporary societies, people think that one can reach acceptance. And then that's it, the grief is passed. And, of course, there can be great advancements in processes. But it's not so simple. As I think many people realize, there's going to be changes in moods, and when something comes up in life, you are reminded of the person or thing that you have lost. And then it's very normal to have these mood changes.

And now, in the last few years, people have been applying Kübler-Ross Stages of grief also, especially for climate grief. And I think there's a great need to apply the richness of scholarship from grief theory into this topic without giving the linear impression. Even though there is some strength in many of the wordings in the Kübler-Ross frame. So that's part of the motivation for me to work on this.

So I wanted to create a model, which would be simple enough so that it can be understood pretty easily, and could be used in education, for example. And perhaps even as a tool for self reflection. But also that it will be more nuanced. And that it would integrate the possibility and inevitability of mood changes. And what might be called fluctuation or oscillation.

And that wasn't an easy task. It was much more difficult than I thought it would be during the COVID-19. It certainly took me time to get that all figured out. So basically, the model is as follows. There is a chronological element, not stages, but phases. And in the middle, there is a three-dimension part. What I'm calling Coping and Changing. And I'll explain that more in a bit.

First, there is what I'm calling Unknowing. And this is something we have discussed in the podcast recently. Partly through the framework of blessed unknowing about the ecological crisis. Then a complex period of Semiconsciousness. And some of these terms come from [an article by] [Sarah Anne] Edwards and [Linda] Buzzell, the so-called “Waking Up Syndrome”. A kind of classic text in ecopsychology. And something I think, Thomas, you have encountered quite early on. So, after this complex phase of Semiconsciousness, where people may sort of know and not know, at the same time – and desire not to know more, because it would be so troublesome to really take in all the information. And the need for changes in one's life.

But there usually comes some kind of realization and Awakening. Which then may lead people to different directions. Some people start engaging with the ecological crisis much more. Or they just can't avoid it anymore. There may be distress of various kinds. And some people still try to get away from the topic. Which I think is very human, but of course, it often leads to severe problems, both in the psychological lives of people. There's cognitive dissonance and other things. And of course, the ethical responsibility for our common planet is difficult to do if you try to move away from the topic altogether. So there may be various kinds of shock or stress and trauma here.

And then comes the sort of heart of the model. This Coping and Changing. And as I heard you, Thomas, say many times, “all models are inadequate, but some may be useful”, to paraphrase. And this is very true for this model also. So it can't capture the fullness of what's going on. But it tries to capture enough so it might be useful. And in Coping and Changing, after long days of work, I conceptualized three dimensions which are 1) Action and 2) Grieving, which includes other emotional engagement. And thirdly, 3) Distancing, which includes both healthy self-care and problematic avoidance. The idea is that seemingly, people need elements from all these three dimensions to adjust and transform in response to the state of the world.

So action is needed so that we can take better care of the planet and ourselves. And it also may help psychologically. But as we've often talked in this podcast, if you just do action, you get in danger of activist burnout and other stuff. And [in] grieving and emotional engagement, of course, people grieve in character, as you say, Thomas, and have different takes on this. But encountering the state of the world includes the need to encounter losses and changes. So that's the grieving part. And also there, if you just go very far in that without action, and without relief, then you usually end up in trouble.

And the third part, which is here called Distancing, is the part where you take some distance to these matters. And the grief theorists very emphatically say that we need that. And it's very normal for people to also take breaks from the grieving process. And there are other things in life which demand our attention. So that's healthy. But then again, if you only do distancing, you end up in disavowal or denial. And once again, you end up in trouble. So this is sort of one of the main ideas. That we need elements from all these three. But if we just do one of them too much, then we end in trouble. How's that for you, Thomas? What thoughts come to your mind when hearing all this?

Doherty: Yeah, no, this is really great Panu. I'm following along and I have the luxury of looking at your figure that shows this graphic that shows your process. And we'll put that in our show notes. And, you know, if you go to our website, each episode has a picture. Some sort of picture. And the picture for this episode will be this graphic. So it'd be like one of the slides that Panu shows. It'll make this come alive to people. But I think just for the listener. And what I'm taking away, too. I mean, there's a pathway here. There's some steps.

I think the first part of this is the, you know, unknowing, or semi knowing or awakening or shock. You know that waking up syndrome. Which I think most listeners, I doubt people would be listening to this podcast if they didn't have that experience. So that captures where we're at. And I love the blessed unknowing stage that you talked about. The innocence that we had before we really took this on.

But then I see a bigger circle that has three things inside of it. There's this creative tension between moving toward action, dealing with the emotions, and then also pulling back a little bit and being able to kind of like, have some emotional distance. Or being able to wait and stop. Be mindful. So the distance, I think, is the most interesting in the sense that everybody knows about emotions and actions. I think we're often toggling back and forth between anxiety and grief and fear. And then what are we going to do about this? But that is distancing. That's like this little special lever, that I can turn things up or down. So I think it'd be nice to chat a little more about that. Because do you think that's really a key for self care?

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for that question, and all the comments. And it was difficult to choose a name for this dimension which is now called distancing. At one point I called it “Avoidance”. I was thinking about “Disavowal” also. So the trick is that it includes both the healthy forms, and the sort of unhealthy forms if you do it overly much. So this is one of the reasons that I was searching for a word which captures both the problematic denial part and the healthy self care part. And of course, one can't find a perfect term which would capture all of that variety. But from the coping theory and grief theory, I found people who are using both distancing and avoidance also, in that positive shade, or positive tone. Pointing out that it's not normal also to do what some people call functional denial or healthy denial. I didn't want to put denial there.

But I think you are very right, Thomas that distancing is sort of the newest term which is named here. And partly that comes from a very practical need, because I've met many young environmental activists who have great trouble in allowing themselves to distance themselves. And that's very understandable because the problems are so pressing. It's so difficult to do structural change. And so sometimes they end up at the danger of burnout. Because [of] not encountering emotions enough and not doing enough distancing and healthy self care.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, no, I think for all the listeners just thinking about this. I mean what I hear often is people will make some sort of joke about being an ostrich. And having their head in the sand. Which is a classic image. I don't actually know that ostriches really do that. We should explore that. But I think ostriches are wiser than that. But anyway, that's a common thing that I hear from a lot of people. People who are quite engaged and quite intelligent and quite aware. But they're like, well, my heads in the sand, you know. But what you're saying is, it's okay to have our head in the sand sometimes.

Pihkala: Yeah, it's all about balance, you know. Of course, action and emotional engagement are hugely important. But I don't think that as humans, in this very “long emergency”, as some authors call it. I don't think that we can make it through if we don't get the benefits of healthy distancing, also. And in a way, this is linked very much to the conversations we were having with Ro Randall some time ago [on] the podcast. And she's been developing together with colleagues living with the climate crisis model. Which also reflects this change of needing to put more emphasis on how we can have the energy and do some rejuvenation and recreation in order to stay functional.

Doherty: So if someone's too far in the head in the sand. And they're comfortable there. And they want to move out into the emotional section, what do you think are some good ways to begin? Do you talk about that at all in the article?

Pihkala: I wish I could talk about it even more, but it's quite a long paper and definitely needs some further work. But I've been very interested in this concept of so-called ecological emotional skills. So emotional skills about ecological emotions. And I think we need many kinds of those. But of course, some methods are pretty universal. You know, listening to what you feel and also in your body. Trying to find names. This goes back to some of the content of our very early episodes of the podcast.

And then trying to develop an emotion-positive attitude, for example. And what I've seen in literature and some people is that if you have your head in the sand for a long time, there's a great danger of feeling actually ashamed underneath the armor you have. So I think skills related to encountering the threat of ecological guilt and shame are actually very much needed at that point. But of course, it's difficult to do alone. Or just start doing it, you know. So the help of safe support groups and discussion partners, I think might be very crucial there.

And I'm also thinking of this concept of yours, Thomas, climate hostages. You know, realizing that all of us, we are both victims and perpetrators in a way. But because we are individuals, I think we really need to understand that we shouldn't take all the blame of the world on our shoulders. So those kinds of things that help you to be more okay with yourself. I think that's one important dynamic in moving towards emotional engagement. Starting with grief and sadness may be difficult, if there is this guilt and shame dimension in the way. But what do you think, Thomas and also reflecting on many people you meet?

Doherty: Yeah, I mean I'm really enjoying our conversation because this is just another lens to think about these really complicated ideas. It seems to me that if we take the safety of being an ostrich as a starting point then we kind of peek out of the sand a little bit. And take in a little bit about what's going on. So some of it is taking small sips of this emotional stuff. You know, just a little bit here and there.

But what I heard that I personally think is really key is that it's easier to do this with other people. If we're stuck and lonely and isolated, it's really hard. But when we're with the people that understand what we're going through, then of course, we just feel a little more able to express ourselves. So that's the universality of being in a group. So that's, I think, a super important takeaway. And then the other piece, and you might say more about this, but some of these emotions are … it's not that they're necessarily harder than others, but they get in the way of other emotions. So I think that shame and guilt. Those shame and guilt. They stop us from expressing or maybe they keep us isolated. So I think we can get over some of those. They're kind of like clogs in the emotional river. If we can work on those. Does that ring true to you that these are more problematic emotions? Maybe?

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah. I definitely think so. And as we discussed in our podcast episode about ecological guilt, it can also have many forms. And sometimes people use that word in very different connotations. So if we think about it broadly, of course, as a sense of responsibility and having an ethical compass, being able to feel guilt is a very much needed part of human life. But then, if you feel it very strongly, and in a complicated way, then definitely so as you describe.

And, of course, the troubles in contemporary society about grief in general. And ecological grief in particular, one big obstacle here. Because contemporary industrial societies aren't very good at teaching, for example, children and young people skills in grief. And if that's, you know, basically totally foreign to people, the idea that it would be good to embrace grief and sadness, because those are emotions that help us. They are not the problems or the enemies, but there are some losses, and then grief and sadness come to help us. But this knowledge and wisdom is much missing from contemporary societies. And that complicates things a lot.

And that's, I think, one of the reasons why the Good Grief Network, which is about ecological grief, is so powerful. It combines social support and engagement with feelings of grief and sadness. And even these death cafes or climate emotion cafes. Which may go into pretty deep and dark territory. But they also enable social support and go towards the shared feelings of sadness. What do you think about this sadness and grief dimension, Thomas? I know you have a long history of dealing with that?

Doherty: Oh, yeah. Well, what I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about the listeners who are saying, well, it's capitalism. You know, we're supposed to be always in the US, rah, rah, rah, cheer, cheer, cheer, everything's great. And don't be a downer. Don't be a Debbie Downer, you know. And so, this grieving and shadow side stuff is just as radical. You know, it goes back to all those things we talked about in relation to Joanna Macy. And a lot of the work is radical to say, wait, I'm actually suffering here, in my plenty in my first world. So it is radical to bring that out and do that together.

So yeah. And then, you know, I think the goal that I'm hearing from you is that your distance becomes a thing that you move around. Like I become an ostrich that keeps his head close to the sand, but not in the sand so that I have one eye on. I'm peeking, and I'm seeing and then eventually, I lift my head up a little higher, and then I can actually walk around with my head up. But I know that I can do my coping skills emotionally in my body. So that I don't have to, like bury my head all the way. Like I learn to kind of take care of myself. The distance becomes really dynamic. Like in the sense of I'm always adjusting. And it's like a balancing act kind of thing. Is that, like a dance or a balancing act, or some sort of embodied? I'm not sure what image you would use.

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah. Thanks for that. Thomas. I think that's very profound. And I'm arguing that flexibility and awareness are some key issues in moving forward in coping and changing.

Doherty: Flexibility.

Pihkala: Yeah, so actually the model ends with another circle. There's an arrow called Adjusting and Transforming. The work of Blanche Verlie from Australia has been one influence here. And theories of so-called Post-Traumatic Growth. Which deal with different kinds of troubles and stressors. Not just with huge traumas, but also with them. So the idea is that of these three dimensions [Action, Grieving, Distancing], the subtitles become the main titles. So instead of Grieving, which includes other emotional engagements, when you're able, through many factors, to adjust and transform, then “other emotional engagement” is the main title and grieving, the subtitle. And also self-care becomes the overriding form. And then you are able to use distancing when you need it. So you have this skill of putting your head in the sand when things become too much, but you are also able to move towards things. And I'm fascinated by the image of ostrich here because they look very slow. But, you know, when they start running, they are very, very fast. So, that's actually a funny image of an ostrich which has the skills of also running fast, putting the head in the sand if necessary. I don't know if ostriches are able to cry, but humans definitely need that skill too.

Doherty: Yeah, our apologies to ostriches and to folks that are listening that are natural historians and do understand. This speaks to our own kind of anthropocentric world where we use these animals as symbols. But obviously, all animals like ostriches are highly evolved for their landscape. And they've got that long neck to find their food in the trees. And they can run fast from predators. And all this sort of stuff. And so yeah, we do want to become, I guess, you know, we're all trying to become evolved. You know, highly evolved for this landscape. And so, something we might have an episode about the ostrich effect.

Because I think we, I'm just kind of brainstorming now. And I'll keep it short, because I know this is focused on your model. But we're starting to think as well, how do we evolve? Like, I need to have long legs to run away from threats. I need to be able to hide if I need to. And I also need to have a long neck, so I can see really far and see these big issues. And so I don't know what the climate creature would look like. That would be highly evolved. You know what I mean, though? It's interesting. What that would be. But we've got a few minutes. And you know, listeners are saying, okay, what's in it for me here? How do I understand? So they could be in any place. Do you have an example of a real person or some sort of way that this works out? So someone might be able to try it on for size. Like anybody that you know, that has gone through this.

Pihkala: Yeah. In the article, I'm using a couple of quotes from Sally Gillespie, an Australian psychotherapist, who has written a very fine book on Climate Crisis and Consciousness (2020). And she is definitely one who has gone through many things on her climate emotion journey. And she's open about it. And mentioning that, for example, [that] apocalyptic dreams don't haunt her as they used to, at some points. There's still mood changes, but generally, there is more flexibility. There is experience of meaning in life. So I think the quotes from Gillespie are important examples coming from someone who has gone pretty far on the journey that I'm trying to conceptualize. At least in a helpful way, even though one cannot capture all the varied dynamics here.

Joanna Macy, who we named, I think is another example of a kind of elder who has really gotten through this. And in many books and essays, there's examples of people in various positions. And it's different for different people in different contexts. Which may sound like a cliche or understatement, but I think it's very important to emphasize that there's a lot of factors affecting this. So this is not an Olympic race. And it's not just up to the individual, but people are in very different positions concerning the factors which affect them.

Doherty: So I think it's helpful. Even back to the New York Times story that came out earlier this year. Which talked about me working with different people, I see. Different people are recognized in your model. I mean, I see some people that are so over on action, that they haven't really ever spent a lot of time on the emotion side at all. I see some people, unfortunately, that are swallowed up by their grieving. And they would love to put their head in the sand, but they can't. They can't do it. I think for some listeners it's just hard. It's hard. And then I think some people are so distant that they have a hard time imagining either action or emotion. So I think that's the challenging part.

But I think we all have our unique recipe. Like where our strengths lie. So what you're talking about is trying to do like, 1/3 1/3 1/3. Or something like that. Where we take care of ourselves for 1/3 and we take action for 1/3 and we have emotions for 1/3. That's highly simplistic. But that would be interesting to practice on a given day.

Pihkala: Exactly Thomas. And thanks for sharing those observations of people who you meet. And we'd love to hear from you, dear listener. So what does it evoke in you? So you can reach us through our website, www.climatechangeandhappiness.com. And if you have close, trusted people who you can talk about with these things.

So that's one possibility to use the model's basic ideas. To reflect on some of that. And I know that with the people I've shared the model with before getting it into the publication process, it has generated very interesting conversations. Where often people look back and think about that hey, when I was in the upper levels of elementary school, I had this awakening, but it was so difficult that I tried to go back to semi consciousness. But that worked for a couple of years, but not more. So it may also evoke this, looking back. And I know, Thomas, that that's one method that you use in your work. You know, doing this sort of timelines and thinking about our personal histories. Both in relation to so-called ecological identity and the happenings in our lives. So hopefully, the model might be using that kind of work too.

Doherty: Yeah, there's no going backward on the process. Once we have that awakening, we have to move forward. And so you're giving us some tools for that. So well, folks, I hope this is helpful. You know, even though you might be alone today, in some ways, you're not alone with us. Because that's what this podcast is meant to be. A place where we all can share this together. Again, you can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. And support us at our Patreon. And we'll keep bringing these in-depth discussions to you. And you all good luck on keeping your head slightly out of the sand. But getting together with other people that you can do action together with. Take care of yourselves.

Pihkala: Take care.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

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image credit | Scott Ordway

Season 2, Episode 10: Composing During the Climate Crisis with Scott OrdwayIn the first episode of the new year, Thomas and Panu spoke with composer and multimedia artist Scott Ordway, whose recent works such as The End of Rain, The Clearing in the Forest and The Outer Edge of Youth explore themes of nature, identity and the effects of global climate change. Scott described the process of creating The End of Rain, an ambitious 2022 orchestral work that wove documentary, music, imagery and landscape investigations to tell the story of the aftermath of a catastrophic wildfire that swept through Scott’s childhood home in the redwood forests of Northern California. Scott also shared a musical selection from his recent choral opera, The Outer Edge of Youth.

“I wanted to understand how fire and drought are changing us emotionally in personal and often hidden ways. Because my questions concerned communal rather than individual consciousness, it was important to me that my work be guided by the experiences of a wide range of people and that the final product reflect the things they told me. I wanted my work to be an act of sustained and careful listening.” — Scott Ordway

Links Scott Ordway * The End of Rain: Review and companion book * Exploring Drought, Fire, and Our Relationship with Land Through Art and Music * Erica Hellerstein (2022) “Grieving California” (featuring Scott’s work and a contribution from Panu) * The Outer Edge of Youth*: Listen and obtain the Recording

TranscriptTranscript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Please support the Climate Change and Happiness Podcast. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast, a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change – the personal side of climate change. And, you know, in the show we focus on emotions, what you're feeling in your body, and your feelings, the words that you use [to describe your emotions]. And you can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. And see our Patreonreon.com/bePatron?u=71854012. And today we have a special guest.

Scott Ordway: My name is Scott Ordway. I'm a composer and multimedia artist based in Philadelphia and originally from Northern California. I'm so happy to be here.

Doherty: And we're really glad to have Scott. And we're going to be talking a bit. We're assuming this episode is going to be coming out early in the year. And this is a beautiful episode to begin our podcast season. Panu, do you want to get us going in our dialogue?

Pihkala: Definitely. So we are going [to] talk a lot about music today. Also emotions. And as almost every person on the planet knows, [there is a] very strong connection between music and emotions. And some time ago with Thomas we did a couple of music themed episodes for our podcast.

Scott, as mentioned, has been working with music in many ways for a long time. And some of his work very explicitly touches on the emotional side of climate change. And overall the changes in the world around us. But Scott, could you start by telling us a bit about your background? So where do you come from? What's up for you?

Ordway: Sure. So I am, as I mentioned, a composer and multimedia artist. In addition to writing works for orchestra voices [and] chamber ensembles, I also work with photography and video as a way to explore themes that are important to me. I was born and raised in Northern California. In and around the coastal redwood forests. And the landscape of coastal Northern California was a huge part of my upbringing and remains an important source of inspiration for me today. And it's also an area which is seeing tremendous changes in the last decade as a result of climate change. And has been a point of inspiration for a lot of my recent work.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for sharing. I had the privilege of listening to one of your recent works, called The End of Rain, which explicitly deals with the impacts of wildfires and droughts to California. Both to people and the more than human world. And would you like to say something about that work? And how did you end up working with that?

Ordway: Sure. So as your listeners may know, in 2020, Northern California suffered some of the most intense wildfires in recent history. And these came on the heels of several previous years that were also among the worst wildfire seasons in living memory. In late summer 2021, one of these wildfires burned quite near to my childhood home in Santa Cruz, California. And I was experiencing this at the time, from the other side of the country, in my home, now in Philadelphia. And as I watched these fire maps, intently. Day and night. Getting closer and closer to the places that I knew and loved so well. And ultimately burning many of them. I knew that I wanted to respond in my own work.

At the same time, I knew that even though this was my home. And a place that I knew and cared about deeply, that my own personal experience was somehow insufficient to capture the intensity of this feeling. Because, as I said, I experienced it from across the country. And so I designed a process through which I gathered first hand testimony from about 225 Californians who had experienced these events directly. All in all, I gathered about 80,000 words of firsthand stories of fire and drought in Northern California. And working from this large data set, I extracted something that I think of instead of a nonfiction poem. Where each line of the poem came directly from one of these responses.

And so, working almost like a journalist speaking to one person after the next. Asking for introductions. Traveling all around the state. I gradually assembled this long poem which I could set to music. I was fortunate enough to have a commission for the work from the Cabrillo Festival of Contemporary Music in Santa Cruz, California. Which is one of the oldest and most celebrated festivals of contemporary orchestral music in the United States. And through that festival, I was able to work with the Grammy winning vocal ensemble, Room Full of Teeth, who would sing this text as soloists.

So with this incredible commission in place, I set out around California to speak with people who had experienced this directly. And also to make video and photography to do documentary video and photography that would illustrate the themes that I heard in the texts. So the final work involves projected documentary video, crowdsource texts sung by Room Full of Teeth, and a large orchestra. At the same time, I published a volume of landscape photography, so the audience could experience the poetry as well as the photography in that way as well.

Doherty: It's really beautiful. You can see some images of the book at Scott's website, Scottordway.com. And I've been just checking them out. And so this was happening. This is a creation in time. This performance must have been quite powerful. Scott, did you hear back from people? I imagine that some of the people who attended the performance were also touched by the fire. What was it like for you? For your family? For people to have this? Because you create a ceremony. You created something that doesn't happen, really, in the world, regarding these disasters. A kind of a ritual and a ceremony to kind of bring them together and extract some meaning and purpose from them, I think. But how did people react?

Ordway: Well, this was something that I was really nervous about. Anytime you create a work that purports to speak on behalf of anyone other than yourself, you're taking quite a risk that you will somehow misrepresent someone. Or that you will have gotten the tone wrong or gotten the spirit wrong. And I thought very deeply as I was gathering these texts. And also, as I was making the selections of which lines to include in the final work. I thought very deeply about what I heard from people. And really did my best to make this piece a conduit for other people's point of view, rather than simply a platform to share my own.

The premiere, which took place in July of this year, or July 2022, I should say, in Santa Cruz, California was for me one of the highlights of my life as an artist. Not only because it was a major event in my home region, but also because I had the opportunity to speak with so many people who had either experienced these events directly, or who had themselves contributed to the text. And what I heard from people was that there was something quite unusual and striking about hearing their words filtered through this process. And included in a symphonic composition. And then sung by these world renowned singers.

And the feedback that I heard was quite positive. The people that I spoke with felt that the work adequately summed up their experience of these events. Or crystallized their feelings in a way which perhaps hadn't before. I'm sure there will have been others that felt that was less the case. And maybe didn't stop by to tell me afterwards. But in either case, the dialogue with the audience was unlike anything I've ever experienced after a premiere.

Doherty: How did your family fare? This is a CZU fire, right? So a big fire complex. How did your family fare yourselves?

Ordway: My family, while they were evacuated. And my hometown was largely evacuated. My family was fortunately spared. For them, the traumatic part, I think, came in losing portions of natural parks which we've known and loved for so many years. Buildings and structures which we considered part of the permanent landscape of the region.

And also losing the peace of mind. And thinking that they were somehow immune from this. Because this fire burned in regions that really have not experienced fire like this in generations. We're not talking about remote wilderness here. This is very, very close to some very densely populated urban areas. So it was quite unsettling for a lot of people that didn't previously envision themselves as living in a fire zone.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for sharing all [that].

Doherty: There's a ton of directions to go. Yeah. But Panu, take this away here. I've got some things to bring up here in a moment.

Pihkala: Yeah, there's several things that I really appreciate about the method. And in the end product of The End of Rain. One being that you were willing to really listen to people's experiences. The second being that you were interested in the wide variety of people's reactions and experiences. And trying to produce a sort of collage or mosaic or whatever word one could use here. And I think that's very valuable. And sort of appreciating and recognizing that people will react differently.

As a scholar of ecological emotions, there's, of course, a very wide variety of things that have come up in other studies, which are now manifested in the lines of The End of Rain. Or in the imagery in a slightly different format. So I think it's very fruitful, also, for researchers to take a look at many kinds of impacts that these kinds of events have. And you explicitly described in the text, also the impact on people's beliefs and assumptions. And that's something I think that would need even more discussed.

Like you say that it may change people's view about the world and their image about sense of safety, for example. Which, of course, are very basic psychological needs, also, as Thomas very well knows, as a therapist, also. But could you tell us a bit more about the sort of emotional journey that you had to go through in making this? So how was that process or journey for yourself?

Ordway: Well, one of the fundamental questions that motivated this work was a hypothesis that we are looking at the forests in a different way than we have in recent generations. And that specifically forests are bringing up a different set of emotions than they have in recent times. And my understanding is that for much of the history of humanity, when people looked out from the cultivated parts of the world, toward the wild parts of the world, they did so with fear and trembling and with trepidation. And that when people looked toward the forest, they saw a place of danger and uncertainty and darkness. As opposed to the parts which were cultivated and understood. And only in the last several 100 years did the forest become a place where we thought of peace and safety and tranquility, and restoration and rejuvenation. Only in recent years, or recent generations have we begun to think of the wild parts of the world as a place of peace and safety.

And my hypothesis is that as we're entering this age of perpetual fire, we're returning to a much older way of looking at the forest where we see it as a potential source of danger as much as a potential source of peace and tranquility. And my own journey has been similar. Particularly when I'm in California and other parts of the Western US. When I see a dry forest, I'm not just thinking of how peaceful it would be or how rejuvenating or inspiring it would be to spend time in a forest. But I'm also thinking of the threat that it poses. And thinking about the relationship between the built environments and the wilderness. So my own way of looking at the forest has become a lot more complicated than it was even a few years ago. And I found in speaking with people for this project that that feeling was widely shared. The forest is not as simple as it was a generation ago.

Doherty: Yeah. And the listeners can take this in. There's people listening, obviously, that have personally experienced worry about forest fires or impacts. Certainly in the Pacific Northwest, everyone can identify with this new sort of trepidation about dry forest and dry underbrush and crinkling leaves and baking sun and all this kind of thing. So yeah, it's good to zoom out. Just remind us that, you know, Scott's work is illustrating climate psychology, right? We have the idea that there's different impacts from climate change. Disaster impacts and societal impacts and the emotional weight. And for a lot of people, you know, they've only just dealt with the emotional weight [of] watching climate as a distant thing. Something that's happening to other people far away.

But of course, these impacts are all coming together. And in a singularity at different places in different times. And if you're in that place, then suddenly you're feeling the emotional weight, and actually the disaster and the social upheaval and the rebuilding. So it is a loss of innocence for those regions. Certainly in the Northwest, it's a loss of innocence. And then it's a loss of — its deep anxiety. Eco-anxiety. So that worry about the potential fire. And the no-longer-trusting-the-heat, and the sun. That's a great example of the subtle kind of pervasive, you know, eco-anxiety. It's lingering in the back of our minds. Which I think is why your piece is so helpful.

Because, you know, there's three ways we have meaning in our life. You know, we feel like our life is significant, we have a purpose, you know, things make sense. And I think after that disaster, people's meaning … they feel insignificant. They don't know what's going on. They don't have a sense of purpose. And so I think your work, at least for yourself, restored some of that meaning, I think. Obviously, why you probably did it. But I think it was, you know, a community meaning making ritual. What do you think about that?

Ordway: You know, as I started out the work, I was imagining that I was going to be writing something considerably more somber than I did. And I was surprised and inspired as I traveled around, speaking with people. I was surprised at the extent to which these events had a galvanizing effect on people and on communities. I spoke with many people who told me that their communities were stronger after the fire than they had been before the fire. In the process of confronting these catastrophic events, they forged connections with their neighbors that hadn't been there before. That they found strength in their community that they hadn't been aware of previously. And that they came out of these events with a determination to be stronger as a community. As a group. As a collection of people.

And there were some people that I spoke with, in particular in one community that had suffered some of the most catastrophic fire damage in the history of the United States. And these individuals told me with great determination, that I was under no circumstances to write a sad piece for them. That I was under no circumstances to make this work about defeat or tragedy. But instead, they wanted me to know that they were rebuilding. That the forest was coming alive again. That their community was coming alive again. And that spirit really surprised me. I wasn't expecting to find that in quite the way that I did. But I tried to honor that in the work.

And I ended up ending the piece with two lines which are sung one after the other in an alternating fashion, which, to me, were both equally true. The first of those lines being we must change now. And the second being, things will grow back. And as I was trying to determine the ultimate emotional point of this piece. Or which of the conflicting emotions I wanted to focus on and highlight, I just couldn't decide between those two things. The need for change is undeniable. And it's also undeniable that things will grow back. The forest regenerates. Communities regenerate. Things do move forward. And this tension and this ambiguity is what I've tried to explore in this piece.

Pihkala: That's very striking both in the piece and how you describe it now. And some folks apply dialectical thinking into climate psychology and the times where we are living. But the idea is that sort of two opposites may be true at the same time, you know. In relation to action, individuals have to do stuff, but also there's a strong need for structural change. So these both exist. It's not either or. There's very good reasons for this pair. And there's grounds for hope also.

So there's the dialectical coexistence of many things, which are sometimes considered binaries. And I think that your work speaks to the true ambiguity and the dialectical character of the times in which we are living.

Doherty: Yeah, and one of the things that I've heard with the therapist that I've worked with and people is that people do lose their ability to relax in nature, in the natural world. Or when they go to do some restorative activity then they feel overcome with grief. And this knowledge, you know, the penalties of an ecological education. Living in a world of wounds kind of thing. And so my standard answer to that is that's true. But it's not a barrier, it's a doorway. It's a doorway into a higher way of being. It's a more mature understanding of the world. We don't have that innocence. We lose that childhood innocence.

Ordway: In the course of particularly the photographic ends and video components of the work, I spent many, many dozens of hours walking and hiking in quite remote regions of California. And I began this process in December 2020. Which was just a couple of months after these fires. And I continued this process through June of 2022. Just before the premiere. So it was about an 18 month series of trips. And what was so moving to me, was at the beginning of creating this piece, I was absolutely shocked and horrified and just devastated by the sight of seeing these forests in the condition that they were in.

After these first trips, as I began speaking with more ecologists and people that work with the Park Service and scientists, I learned in much greater detail about the fact that fire is a natural part of the lifecycle of forests. And particularly these coastal redwood forests. It is a healthy and necessary part of the forest ecosystem. And other than its impact on human communities, fire was a neutral phenomenon from an ecological standpoint. It was not necessarily sad from the point of view of the trees. And as I started spending more and more time in these forests, not only did I become accustomed to the sight of burned out trees, you know, it became a little bit less shocking to me after a while. But also in the course of those 18 months, I started to see new growth. By the end of that period of time, groves that had been completely devastated were sending up new shoots. There was just green exploding everywhere by that spring of 2022.

And so for me, this sustained contact with these ecosystems made it impossible for me not to see the truth that things will grow back. They are growing back. They've already started. In the time it took me to write this piece the forest has begun that process of rejuvenation. And what we need to do is reconsider the relationship between where and how people live and the wilderness.

Doherty: That's very well said. That's very well said. I think we need sustained contact and a sense of time.

Pihkala: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Doherty: Maybe we can steer the conversation toward the other pieces that we want to talk about today as well. The Outer Edge and The Clearing. [Do] you want to get us in that direction, Panu?

Pihkala: Yeah. There's this framework of post traumatic growth. That's actually the title of one of the last texts I did in Finnish for this national eco anxiety project, from which we had guests visiting our podcast. Post traumatic growth refers to the fact that often after a major crisis, there's both damage and growth. So, in my mind, that very strongly resonates with the vivid imagery that you are talking about here, Scott.

And music is, of course, something which can help in many ways in producing all kinds of growth. And many works of yours also, other than The End of Rain, deal, in one way or another, with this relationship between humans and the more than human world. So, would you like to say a bit about some of your other works, which come close to the topic at hand?

Ordway: Yeah, I'd be happy to. So whereas The End of Rain is very much a documentary work and is kind of a piece of musical nonfiction, if you will. Most of my other work is concerned with imagined worlds or more fictional representations of these ideas. My most recent recording, which is available on Spotify and Apple Music and everywhere else that music has found is an opera called The Outer Edge of Youth. And in this piece, I imagine a relationship between two young boys who are uncommonly quiet and sensitive. And find a friendship with one another that's rooted in their shared love for the beauty of the natural world. And the landscape around them. This piece is set in an imagined forest that, for me, is very similar to the coastal redwoods of Northern California. And these boys find, one day in the forest, that they're able to understand the words of the birds singing in the trees. And in the course of the piece, the boys have an extended dialogue with the birds on the subjects which are the most urgent to them, at the end of their youth and the beginning of their adolescence. And so they speak with the birds about the nature of love and human relationships. About the nature of compassion. The relationship between humans and animals. About the nature of beauty. And the possibility of the divine. And also the difficulty of having a spiritual life in a broad, secular world that we live in. And all of these questions are left unresolved.

But it's a slow and contemplative work that really just dramatizes the world that's gone on in my head for so much of my life. Which is how to reconcile the intensity of human emotion with an appreciation of landscape with inspiration in the natural world. And with a society which quite often makes it very difficult to live and be in touch with these things. Which doesn't privilege this kind of slow appreciation of beauty. So that work is streaming everywhere and maybe we can listen to a short excerpt from it now.

Pihkala: That will be excellent. So here's an example.

[audio excerpt from The Outer Edge of Youth]

Doherty: Yes. Now this is beautiful. I love our podcast because it always kind of works out. I've been struggling with helping people make sense of their connection / disconnection with nature. This is both-and kind of situation. The fear that's now coming into people. And then, for me, it's coming back to this idea that it's the end of innocence. When we're children we have a blessed unknowing. We have a beautiful natural innocence of nature. But as adults, we let that go. We can go back to it as an adult, though. And think about it. And learn from it still.

But it's not the same. And, you know, we are adults, and we do have this knowledge. So I feel like our conversation has described that a little bit. Because I think, Scott, you've been able to kind of as an adult go back to that. That fraught, you know, fruitful time. And then the idea of having the birds, you know, be the advisors is really beautiful. And captures some of that magic of childhood that we can evoke in art.

Pihkala: Yeah, the French philosopher Paul Ricoeur, who lived in the States for quite some time, had this idea of “second naivete.” So, you know, the first naivism, in a good sense, is when you are a small kid. But then for some issues, the human task would be to cultivate an ability for a sort of second naivete. So he was thinking of this with several issues.

But that's something that comes to my mind when listening to this. And perhaps that could be applied for connections with a more than human world, also. There's definitely good reasons for that, as I hear you, both Thomas and Scott saying. It's been a very fascinating conversation. I've greatly enjoyed it. And warm thanks, Scott, that you could join us. We have to wrap up relatively soon. But what's on your minds, Thomas and Scott, as we start wrapping things [up]?

Doherty: Well, the idea of naivete. We recently spoke to poet Kim Stafford and he spoke quite forthrightly about claiming that naivete in his poetry. And now he gives a voice to the raindrops and various things like that. So there is almost kind of a. If it's done well, it's a very radical and very mature act. A very fruitful kind of generative act if it's done well. And so just looking back to the episode. I refer listeners back to the episode with Kim as well, in this regard.

But, Scott yeah, where does your creative life lead you these days? And how does it feel? We don't need to open up a long chapter here. But like, I know you're in Philadelphia now, which is a very different place than Santa Cruz or the California redwoods. So what's your creative life leading you even today, in this week?

Ordway: This project has really opened a lot of creative possibilities for me. And going forward, I'm looking for new projects that similarly use this process of journalistic and documentary text gathering to tell stories that are grounded in the experiences of people in the contemporary world.

And I'm also designing projects that continue to use photography and video as ways to enrich. and kind of augment the texts and the music that I'm creating. So I'm really interested in this idea of multimedia work. And creating works that are able to speak directly to the public about issues that people care about. And to do so using music which connects with those deepest and hardest to access places of who we are as people

Doherty: It's so nice that we're having arts in our podcast here. I'm really gaining from it in our show notes we'll have links to Scott's works. And some neat interviews with Scott. And also some other examples of music that are out there. For people in the know, they know there are composers that have been doing climate related work for some time.

But for some others, you know, we're not clued in. So there's some links to follow this or ourselves. And I think we'll be. Scott, I'm going to be delving into your work a little more. Now that I have the personal story it makes it so much more special to think about.

Ordway: Pleasure speaking with you both.

Doherty: Panu take care of yourself, have a good evening. And you all take care. Listeners, you can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com and see our past episodes. You can also find us on Patreon. And you all be well. Take care.

Pihkala: Take care.

Ordway: Thank you.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded, volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

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image credit | Levi Guzman

Season 2, Episode 9: Sitting Around the Fire / Permission to Feel JoyThomas and Panu take a moment to “sit around the fire” at the end of 2022 and winter time in the northern latitudes, as Panu watches the snowy weather in Helsinki, and Thomas muses about world events and his family’s yearly solstice ceremony. Listen in as the pair reflect on global dangers and our feelings about them —ranging from the brutal conflict in Ukraine and renewed threat of nuclear war to new and often unexpressed stress and unease as our seasons and weathers change around the world. And, holding the contradictions: Watching exciting World Cup matches against the backdrop of systemic injustices, and the “holiday season” with its frenetic, electronic consumerism and opportunity for simple, authentic connections with loved ones. Panu and Thomas model the healthy process of ecological conversations: sharing the deep and dark thoughts we have with safe and trusting listeners, bearing witness, and also naturally finding the bright parts of life, gratitude and “permission to feel joy.” Remember, you are not alone. Please find your own healthy rituals. Look forward to more unique episodes of our podcast in the new year and please support us at Patreon and at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

Links * “Sit Around the Fire” From composer Jon Hopkins with spoken word by Ram Dass * Viola Sampson, “Darkening quarter”, in Rust, M.-J. & Totton, N. (eds.) (2012), Vital signs: Psychological Responses to Ecological Crisis. Karnac, pp. 3-16. Available for purchase.

And so, I begin to see that this darkening quarter of the year is a turning of fullness and expanding into the darkness. It is an opportunity to stay present to the darkness within and without, and not shrink from the cold or the world's grief. It is an opportunity to inhabit the greater darkness of the Earth, allowing its shadow to imbibe me and draw me inwards and downwards into my roots. * Jolabokaflod: An Icelandic holiday tradition to adopt?

TranscriptTranscript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Please support the Climate Change and Happiness Podcast. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is our podcast. Our show for people around the globe who are thinking and most importantly, feeling—take a breath there listeners—who are feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change. Our emotional responses. And how all these issues sit with us in our lives.

And Panu and I are sitting here toward the end of 2022. And we have a metaphor of we're not personally together, we're drawn together through our technology. But we're metaphorically sitting around the fire here. Gathering our thoughts about the end of the year. The show is a public conversation about climate feelings, climate emotion, some of our professional and our academic research work and our guests and people that are exploring this and also just the personal side. And all you listeners have your own personal side. So we're here to talk about some of this and really have a sitting around the fire end of the year energy for ourselves. And as I talk about these things, Panu , what's up for you there in Finland, near Helsinki at this time of the year?

Pihkala: When I look around, from this place, sitting next to the fire, I see a lot of snow, which personally is a great source of joy. And for many Finns, we are a people accustomed to snow. In Helsinki, which is near to the Baltic Sea, it's always been a bit more irregular than inland. And now with global warming, it's been getting even more irregular. We even had one winter a couple of years ago, when we had practically no snow at all. And people were pretty miserable. And no cross country skiing, no going downhill for kids. And even the public health impacts are serious because there's less light and that sort of thing. So now there's lots of gladness, because of the heavy amount of snow. And it's been here since mid November.

But of course, as usual in life, there's ambiguities. At the same time, we are living this special time when there's war in Ukraine. And energy transition is going strong in Europe, but still, there's gonna be a lack of electricity in the winter and many people in Finland are also afraid of how high the cost of their electricity bill will be. So this nice snow with winter with cold temperatures is also going to bring some trouble here.

Doherty: So yes, where you are in Finland, this terrible war and conflict in Ukraine is very much more present in your daily life [than] for listeners that are not not close to that conflict. And does it cause fear and worry in your family?

Pihkala: Well, the human mind is quite adaptive. And springtime was very difficult for many Finns. There was the cumulative impact of the COVID-19 pandemic. And then the war began, and it evoked lots of national traumas in Finland, about the difficult relations with our East neighbor. There's also been lots of great cultural exchange between Finland and Russia. So I definitely don't want to characterize it only as a struggle or rivalry. But there is also the very troublesome history of the Second World War. And we still have people who lived through that period. And it's much present in the national psyche, so to speak, so that's been causing lots of fear and worry and anxiety.

But then as the months go on, people have calmed down. And there's been all sorts of actions being done and so on. So it's on the back of people's minds, of course. And this connects with a major theme in our podcast, the impacts of the climate climate crisis. Because that's also something that's there, at least on the back of our minds, regardless of how actively we think and feel about it.

Doherty: Yeah, so you know, we're holding this, this podcast. You know, listeners, if you're new, this podcast is our public conversation. And also our personal lived experience of what we feel about the state of the world. I mean we focus particularly on climate and environmental issues. But we have these meta stressors that all of us are holding. You know, the war. Human’s propensity to be at war with each other. And imperialism and fights over resources in this whole geopolitical chess match of wars that Europe has been beset with, as long as we can see in history.

And so we're holding space for how war is affecting us, much like climate change. You know, there's direct, indirect and emotional impacts of the war in Ukraine. I mean, it's directly impacting people in Ukraine and in Russia and surrounding areas. The carnage, the destruction, the death, the suffering. You know, it's a true disaster on many levels. And then also the indirect ripple effects of that all through the world. And how it affects our politics and our own economy. And whether we have heat in the winter, you know. And then the emotional impacts of just sitting from a distance and knowing it's all occurring, even if we feel relatively safe, and untouched, where we are. We're not untouched emotionally about all these kinds of things.

So just, you know, again, to the listeners, just realizing you're not untouched, emotionally. Your emotions and feelings are activated. You know, your body sensations. All the emotions in your body. And then we're talking about the language for our emotions. Our feeling language. You know, anxiety is another thing for people.

Pihkala: Yeah, exactly. When there's so much uncertainty about whether there's gonna be snow, or what the winter's gonna be like. So this snow anxiety or winter longing or winter grief. And the Finnish equivalents are something that I've been often discussing, both in the Finnish media and in some international media also. And we've been thinking together with some colleagues that what kind of social practices would we need to encounter these kinds of emotions and feelings? So perhaps some events, at least talking about it's doing some symbolic actions that go to the territory of art and performance and ritual and so on. But now, we are living in the midst of the snow so no need for that now.

And one big dimension of these macro worries, or global stressors is, of course, the threat of nuclear war. And that's something which the war in Ukraine, also fortified and strengthened in many people's minds. And that impact, I think, extends also beyond Europe, but it's probably the heaviest in Europe. But how about you, Thomas, what's on your mind when you're sitting around this fire in the dark time of winter?

Doherty: Yeah, so here in the Northern Hemisphere, it's the dark time. So there's this great kind of tug of war between wanting to be quiet and to be comfortable and to, you know, hibernate a little bit. And then also the pull towards celebration and Hanukkah and Christmas and other holidays. And, of course, consumerism and all the advertising and cultural rituals. And then also with the positive parts of gathering with family. And I have family members that are coming into town. Literally, you know, staying at my home and coming to see myself.

My daughter is performing in a school Christmas performance the next couple of nights that has all the young people. The school band, all the different musicians in the school. And the choir, and the dancers and artists. All the students put on a winter festival celebration that's quite beautiful. And so just such such warm, positive feelings about all of those kinds of things that are happening all around the world. So just listeners can kind of be thinking about this. Again, holding space for our personal lives. And then also all this heavy stuff with just the tragic human actions in Ukraine and the threat of nuclear war. And I think this time of the year, people will because we are going through a transition of a changing global climate there is loss. Or what we were used to. There's either winter loss, snow loss, because we're letting go of these snow patterns. Particularly people that are mountaineers, or skiers or outdoor people are letting go of what they understand of the winters in some ways. And then, of course, there's summer grief as well, for folks in the Southern Hemisphere. As we know, in places like Australia with black summer fires and things that you know, summer is not the same, either.

And so we all globally are being stretched and stressed a little bit. And to try to be, you know, make peace and be comfortable with all these global environmental changes. So just, it seems a little bit obvious to say, but this is just something to hold space for. That we're thinking about and, you know, coping and things like that.

Pihkala: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So different cultures, and also subgroups in various cultures will have different things that they hold in great record and significance, and which climate change is then threatening. So I totally agree that there's a great need for cultural sensitivity. And, also, preferably possibilities for people to think about and feel about how this relates to me and the people close to me and the locals. And as you say, Thomas, in some parts of the world, it's more anxiety related to the summer and not to the winter. So that's one example. And I'm also thinking about the discussion we had with Charles Ogunbode and his research of climate change reactions and emotions in Africa, for example.

Doherty: Yeah, what did you take away from our conversation with Charles? What are you thinking about?

Pihkala: Well, many things as you usually do. And it's fascinating to hear a bit about his perspective on life. But of course, growing [up] in Nigeria, and growing up in Finland are quite different areas and still there can be things in common, like, appreciating the local natural environments or the forms of the modern human world. And so, that always strikes me as great contextual differences, but also, the great deal of things we have in common, just by being human, especially if there's similar value orientation.

Doherty: Yeah, I mean this would be the episode that I think will be just previous to this episode for listeners if they're looking. But you know, Charles has studied people's feelings in Africa and East Africa and West Africa about climate change. And really, we talked a bit about that relationship between kind of resignation and fatalism. Like I cannot do anything about this, I have so many other things to think about. I can't really take on this particular global problem. But also a sense of deeper resilience. Well, I'm going to make it through. I've made it through these other problems, too.

So all of us, I think, are balancing that sense of, you know, resignation, and also resilience. That we're going to make it through, you know. And again, each listener of this episode has their own personal story. And so just even just knowing that you're not alone. Like we recognize that your story of being in your shoes, with your family, where you live on the planet, you have your story. Herein the Northern Hemisphere, we're in this darkening part of the year. So we want to kind of come together and be inside and think about things. You know, in other parts of the globe, people are outside. It's warmer, they're active. They're called into action and things like that.

Pihkala: Yeah, exactly. And one thing that's been on my mind lately is that a long time project of conceptualizing a process model of eco anxiety and ecological grief finally came out as a journal article in an academic publication. Of course, I always try to do those with a style that would be as easily understandable as it can be in an academic publication. And we'll actually talk about that model in one of the forthcoming episodes. So there's very interesting episodes coming up next year. And now, I don't want to go into too much detail now, but in the model test, key dimensions related to action, grieving, and then having distance. And this having a distance can include both self care and avoidance.

And I think this is closely related to what you, Thomas, said about the various contexts. And in some situations, people really have to do some distance. So it's not always, always evil, so to say. But it has to be evaluated contextually. That what's the resources of the people to respond? And what are the conditions, both socially and ecologically. But this idea of self care and community care is, of course, something we have been heavily discussing in this podcast also during the year. And that's something that you, Thomas, have been writing about and speaking about for a great number of years. So for me, that's one of the themes that emerges strongly from your written work.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Panu. Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, I'm really intrigued about your use of the word distance. You know, in your coping model, because I think it's a juicy topic for listeners to think about this idea of distance. Even in our. I mean, I know, here, where I am, in the US, people are often, you know, swept up in the holiday season. And there's positive rituals. And there's also consumerism. And buying things and advertisements. And, you know, so the distance can be just. If I can kind of articulate this, all these global things we're talking about, at best we remain open to them. Our eyes are open to them. We're bearing witness to all this stuff. We're not in denial about these issues. War, nuclear war, the aggression in Ukraine, the history of colonialism and imperialism in the world, our power grid, and how we rely on fossil fuels. And how that becomes an easy way for global piracy and power to take over fossil fuels. And how we have the potential for different, maybe more just, and sustainable technologies. So just being aware of all that sort of stuff and keeping our eyes open to it. But then we can look away also to other things.

So I think that's the way to think about it. [It's] like, okay, I'm aware of all these troubling things. And that's in my sight, but I can also turn my gaze toward other beautiful things as well. And my family and my children. And I'm not in denial of those other things. As it came up recently in our conversation somewhere along the line, the whole myth of the ostrich. You know, that the ostrich has their head in the sand. You know, but ostriches don't really do that. That's a myth. You know, when they're under threat, they either move away, or they camouflage themselves, but they don't stick their head in the sand. You know, that human image we have. But ironically, ostriches tend their eggs in underground nests. And when their head is in the sand, it's most likely because they're tending their eggs.

And so we do have to focus on our own lives. And our own personal health and well being. Our children. Our family. And that's a good place to put our gaze. And it doesn't mean that we're forgetting about all these other things, you know. But, you know, at any given moment, you know. And even in the next few weeks, it's going to be most important to put our gaze with ourselves and our families and on true positive things that are happening. And then not necessarily let this stuff in the world drain us of our joy. That's true joy.

Pihkala: Yeah, exactly. This sort of permission to feel joy. IIolupa would be my Finnish word for that. I think that's a very important topic. And something we touched upon in a conversation with Daniela Molnar, a very interesting artist. And that's gonna come up on the website also. That [future podcast] episode. And it's also closely related to this topic of feelings of inadequacy, which we have discussed a couple of times in the podcast. Because they seem to be so hugely common among people who care about matters. And that can become an obstacle to discuss sort of healthy distancing. That feelings of inadequacy then become stronger.

So that could be one hoped for takeaway from this episode would be to give ourselves and each other permission also to do some healthy distancing. And self care and community care during this period. And I think this time in the natural world in the Northern Hemisphere. The darkening quarter, as Viola Sampson, an author of a great essay about this in ecopsychology, puts it. And we could use that also to benefit us, because it can allow us to do some inner journeys. And you can sort of turn a bit inwards from all the hustle in the outer world. And hopefully this time of the seasons would give some possibilities for that for as many people as possible. But I heard, Thomas, you say that in our pre conversation that you've also very literally taken some time out and sort of retreated some time ago.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, Panu and I always have a little pre-planning conversation before we record. And, you know, we just empty our sack of all the things that we're doing. And just like, you know, as two friends or colleagues would. You know, sitting around the fire somewhere, that's our model today. And I recently did a retreat. I have a practice of doing a mindfulness meditation retreat for myself in early December each year. It's very hard to do, because, of course, I'm a parent. And I have all my work and my deadlines. And so it really takes a lot of courage and energy to tear myself away for a weekend to be in a retreat, reflective mode. But invariably, it helps me to look out at the world with new eyes.

And so that's part of I think, the potential for this time of the year for people. Is to take a moment just to look at the world. And to find some new eyes. And it's quite existential. I think about just humanity and time and our human culture. I've been reading The Dawn of Everything –the David Graeber and David Wengrow book that many listeners might be aware of. And, you know, just thinking in big terms about time and society. And, again, this play of humanity that we're immersed in. So yeah, I think it comes back to that. That toggling between bearing witness to this terrible stuff, and also bearing witness to the beauty in our lives, and our family and our children. Even things like the World Cup, which is happening today. Or at this time around the world. You know, France and Morocco are playing in the World Cup later today. And that's one of our few global rituals that we have as the World Cup and soccer and football. And there's so many levels to that. The artistry and the athleticism of the football players is just so striking. But of course, the intense marketing and consumerism surrounding the World Cup. And the corruption and Qatar and just the whole backstory of that. So it's a mess of things, right? That we have to deal with there.

And some people, you know, aren't really aware of all that stuff. But a lot of us are aware of all those different levels. And so we're going to celebrate the players and the athleticism and the adventure of those games. And the celebration and joining together and the singing and the camaraderie. And also realize there's a lot of other pieces going on there. It's just a lot. It never ends, Panu. You know, the news has all these stories about fusion reactors and quantum computing in all these recent scientific discoveries. And, you know, every year there's a new discovery that may or may not be helpful. And all this sort of stuff. So we have to sort of keep our eyes on the true justice and fairness in the world and how to focus on that. Yeah, what else is coming up for you as we kind of chat here?

Pihkala: Yeah. Speaking of the World World Cup. I've usually watched those. And it's great that humanity comes together. But of course, it's imbued with lots of ambiguities and ethical issues. And those need attention and especially this year, it's been much more ambivalent than usually. And this is something that people together must then discuss and make decisions. And they are often not easy ones to make.

And speaking of the sort of [The] Dawn of Everything type of things and the solstice time, I've been fascinated by this new documentary about ancient cultures. And once again reminded of how many of the very old structures of humanity, built us calendars linked with the cycle of the sun and the annual year. So this is something that really goes deep into the rules of civilization. And I think it's also a profound statement to the connections between humans and the more than human world. And definitely during this dark time in the Northern Hemisphere, there must have been lots of watching of the stars also during this time of the year. And this is, of course, something very pertinent in relation to electricity. And also global warming and other ecological issues. So that's some counterculture that I think we really would need to also have actual fires and go out in the dark evenings and nights to take a look at the starry sky.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, that's a great connection with all the ancient cultures. We know the Newgrange, Stonehenge, the Aztecs. You know, all around the world. These cultural calendars. Tracking. Yeah, so the solstice is coming up here soon in the Northern Hemisphere. I do encourage listeners to be within all the things that are going on, and one of the heart of this season is celebrating the solstice. Either the summer solstice in the south or the winter solstice in the north.

And, you know, I know myself, my family, and we have a solstice gathering. A very simple solstice celebration every year that I would encourage listeners to think about. Where we go outside in our yard. And we have a fire and we stand in a circle and have candles. And, you know, we reflect on the end of the year. We blow out our candles and let it be dark for a moment. And then we light the candle from the fire. And then in turn, everyone lights each other's candle going around the circle. Just [a] very simple ritual, but it helps us to sort of recognize the end of the old year and the beginning of the new year. And I know for me, as soon as I do that, it helps the whole Christmas thing to make more sense for myself. And all the marketing and things just go away.

And I realized there's a true core. So I've been able to find a true core of that time of the year that's very authentic. Very simple, very authentic, doesn't cost a lot of money. It just is very analog, you know, it's very human. So I encourage people to find some analog moments. Which I mean, not digital, not on a computer. You know, being out in nature with your head under the stars and feeling the air on your skin. Even taking a long walk or being outdoors can be really helpful for our bodies at this time of the year. So, a lot of it is coping, you know, healthy as always healthy coping for each season of our lives.

Pihkala: Yeah, that's a nice phrase. Seasons of our lives are linked with these natural seasons. And good to hear about this ritual of Solstice we haven't spoken about that ever. And that goes into the category of ritual imagination and creativity. And I think that's one of the crucial skills for us. In this ambivalent time that we are living in. I'd like to share a quote from this essay, The Darkening Quarter by Viola Sampson. Which is from a book called Vital Signs: Psychological Responses to Ecological Crisis, edited by Mary-Jayne Rust and Nick Totton. So here it is.

And so, I begin to see that this darkening quarter of the year is a turning of fullness and expanding into the darkness. It is an opportunity to stay present to the darkness within and without, and not shrink from the cold or the world's grief. It is an opportunity to inhabit the greater darkness of the Earth, allowing its shadow to imbibe me and draw me inwards and downwards into my roots.

Doherty: That's a very nice quote. And we can put that in our show notes. You know, yeah, different things that draw us down to our roots. That's a good takeaway for us. And for the listeners, you know, what's going to draw you in a healthy way down to your roots here in this particular season. And I want to thank everyone for joining us on our journey.

This year, I know we have regular listeners around the world. I hear from people that have come, you know, along the journey with us now. And all of our episodes. Over 20 episodes that we've done over the course of 2022. This is the end of our first year on this project. So I really thank the listeners who have supported us. And, you know, you can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com, our website where you can find descriptions of all our previous episodes and links. And you can find this page on Patreon. And we do need support to make this project happen. This is an all volunteer effort. And we need support to pay our very gifted intern. And ideally, we would have support to compensate our guests that come and give up their time. And support for technology and things like that. So at people's end of the year, think about supporting our podcast, among other things in your life. And Panu, what's going to happen here in a little bit as after we sign off?

Pihkala: Yeah, it's a dark, snowy evening in Helsinki. And the boys will soon be home from their hobbies. And the academic year is getting close to its end. So one more week of work and going over some essays by students. I do some teaching, mostly research. So that's on my agenda before taking a break from the computers. And during Christmas, and New Year. And how about you, Thomas? What's up?

Doherty: Well, like a lot of listeners, I have guests in my home. And I have my mother-in-law. My late wife's mother is visiting. And we have family and we're gonna watch my daughter in a performance among all of her fellow students this evening. Also one of my jobs today is to be a dad and to hold space for my 15 year old daughter who's nervous about her big dance performance. And really just have joy in the beauty of all these young people and all their talents.

And I'm going to root for the best team to win in the World Cup match today. And I have my own heavy journey of writing and things that I'm trying to do and create, which I'll try to put some time into today. So I feel like I've done my work. My daily work. Yeah, so I wish that for all of us that you can get your daily duties done and also find some joy. So our theme, one of our themes today was permission to find some joy at this time of the year. And that doesn't doesn't mean that you're burying your head in the sand. There are truly some beautiful things in the world to be thankful for at this time of the year. So take care of yourself, Panu.

Pihkala: You too, Thomas. And thanks all the listeners for this and do take care.

Doherty: Take care everyone. We'll talk to you in the new year. And you all have good holidays however you celebrate them.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded, volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

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image credit | Oluwakemi Solaja

Season 2, Episode 8: Climate Feelings in East and West Africa with Charles OgunbodePanu and Thomas were joined by Charles Ogunbode, a psychology researcher at the University of Nottingham in the UK, in a dialogue about anxiety and other eco-emotions around the world. Charles shared insights from his widely reported paper “Climate anxiety, wellbeing and pro-environmental action: Correlates of negative emotional responses to climate change in 32 countries.” His study found that while climate anxiety is hurting people’s mental health around the world, from Brazil to Uganda, Portugal to the Philippines, people’s ability to speak out and take action is curtailed by lack of free speech and ability to demonstrate in many countries. Charles described his early interest in wildlife protection in Nigeria and his formative discoveries of research on conservation psychology and unconscious aspects of emotions like the melancholy that we can feel in relation to widespread destruction of the natural world. He described how his current projects create nuanced portraits of how Africans perceive the harms posed by climate change that move beyond simplistic stereotypes. Thomas, Panu and Charles reflected on unique environmental emotions and coping responses of citizens of East and West Africa that, given their shared colonial histories, feature both resignation about climate threats and also a deep resilience. Listen in and join us!

Links* Charles Ogunbode * Media on Charles’ research: Study: Climate anxiety is spreading all over the planet * Charles Ogunbode, et al. 2022 “Climate anxiety, wellbeing and pro-environmental action: Correlates of negative emotional responses to climate change in 32 countries.” * The MECCA project: Targeting Mental Models of Climate Change Risk to facilitate Climate Action * Psychological Adaptation to Climate Change Risks among Adolescents and Young Adults in the Pacific Small Island Developing States * Charles reports he is an Associate Editor of the new journal, Global Environmental Psychology and is co-editing a special issue of the journal on “Living with Environmental Change” with Susan Clayton. (Hear from Susan in Season 1, Episode 6: “Environmental Identity and “Climate Flow”).

TranscriptTranscript edited for clarity and brevity.

Thomas Doherty: Please support the Climate Change and Happiness Podcast. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. This is a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change and other environmental issues. We focus on our personal emotions, our feelings, our private lives. And today, we're really happy to have a guest with us.

Charles Ogunbode: Hello, I'm Charles Ogunbode. I'm an assistant professor in psychology at the University of Nottingham, in the UK. And it's really nice to join you today on the podcast.

Doherty: And we're so happy to have Charles. Charles has been very active as a researcher, really expanding our understanding of climate emotions around the world. And I know Charles, you've been focused also on your own family and your own life. Panu, do you want to get us started today on our global conversation?

Pihkala: Definitely. And warmly welcome Charles also, on my behalf. We have met online talking about young people and climate anxiety. But it's really great to have a more relaxed and free flowing opportunity for discussions. And there [are] also links. I'm from Finland, as many listeners know. And Charles has been leading really international research where one of the countries has been Finland. Not me, but my colleagues have been involved in that.
I know, Charles, a bit about your history. That you've been in many places. So would you like to get us started by telling a bit about your personal and professional journey?

Ogunbode: Yes, thank you. Thank you, Panu. So basically, my background didn't really begin in psychology. I did a degree in wildlife management. Because when I was younger, I got interested in conservation. And I actually wanted to become a conservationist. So in the course of my degree, I went and did a whole bunch of sub practical training things and different nature reserves and national parks and things like that in Nigeria. And in the process of doing this experience, gaining activities, I soon figured out that a lot of the issues were not to do with the actual sub scientific or ecological aspects of the problem. A lot of the issues were to do with people. So it was, you know, conflicts between park rangers and local communities. You know, a lot of it was mistrust between the different parties involved. People not being very clear about what the purpose of conservation activities were, and things like that.

So I thought, okay, I'm really interested in doing something around the human side. And incidentally, just towards the end of my undergrad degree, I just happened to stumble on a book, titled Conservation Psychology. Which was written by Susan Clayton and Gene Meyers. It was given to me as a present, just random. And I read this book. And I thought this is exactly what I want to be doing. So that was the sort of start on this. I signed up to do a master's program in psychology. And carried on sort of looking into things that probe environmental behavior. And things like that. And that's basically developed into what I do now.

But the more sort of recent history of what's brought me to sort of emotions and well being and things. Which has become quite a big focus on my work now. That kind of happened a few years ago. [The] last three, four years. Maybe three years. When we had our first child, my wife had eco anxiety. Climate anxiety. We lived in Norway at the time. And I was already working on climate change at this point. And I was doing work mainly around trying to encourage people to be more concerned about climate change. Trying to get people more engaged. And basically, my outlook at the time was very much focused on risk perception models. Trying to be like, you know, if people really understood the risks posed by climate change, then they will be a motivator to act. That was, you know, in summary, my driving motivation.

But then when I saw my wife go through this phase where, you know, she was consuming lots of information about climate changes on social media and getting involved in loads of things. And she was just in a really sort of anxious state about this. And we had this child. And, you know, I think it's a combination of that particular phase in our lives. And also, you know, this big lumination thing. We just brought a child into this world. And, you know, there are all these things. And it was just really stressful. And that made me start to think a bit differently about what it means to be emotionally engaged with, you know, climate change and the ecological crisis in general. And it was around this time as well that, you know, the Friday's for Future and, you know, Extinction Rebellion. All that stuff really take[s] off. And, of course, climate anxiety as a concept kind of entered the public sort of mainstream consciousness.

So I would say, actually I really value that period in my life, because I think it made me move from a more, in hindsight, a mechanistic understanding of what emotions are in relation to the climate crisis. To where I am now where I like to think, well, one of the things I'm advocating at the minute is how we need to have this ethic of care around how we communicate about climate change. And try to motivate people. And things like that. It's not enough to just be well, let's just find a button that's going to make people engaged and act. We also have to think. We've got to have some responsibility as well. For these forces, and these reactions that we're trying to generate with people. So that's, in short.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks so much, Charles. That's very rich. And I really value this openness with which you are describing that journey. And this already connects to a huge number of issues we have been touching on [in] this podcast. There's the so-called ecological identity or environmental identity. And very interesting to hear about this early history of yours. And I guess for many people, it goes like this. That there's a place and an ecosystem. And that's happening. And also the sort of better paradigm than “we need more information”.

Ogunbode: Yes.

Pihkala: That happened for me, also. It was really eye-opening to then start looking at another way. And the works of Renée Lertzman and Ro Randall and some others were very influential for me in that regard. So there's some points that I can also personally connect with here.

Ogunbode: And actually to add to that someone else whose work was also very critical in that transition for me was Renée Lertzman. The first sort outside of my social cognition paradigm and where I am normally. The first piece of work I read that took me. Kind of started to develop an understanding of emotions was her book, Environmental Melancholia. I think it was. That was a really good book for me to kind of get started on this new direction.

Doherty: This is great. Yeah. I'm really enjoying our conversation. And there are so many commonalities. Panu and I both have done outdoor work in the past. And my background doing outdoor therapy and river guiding. And I also considered going into wildlife conservation. And then actually had a turning point where there was study environmental studies or psychology. So I think that's common for a lot of the therapists that I've worked with. That they've had these backgrounds.

And just the listeners. I think the listeners can identify with all of this process that we're talking about. Going from the intellectual to the emotional. And psychologists in particular are very intellectual type species. And so really moving to the emotional and the depth. More depth psychology. And more the psychoanalytic archetypal directions like Renee and other thinkers. And yeah, the insight of we need to take care of people, not just push levers and buttons in a behaviorist kind of way to get people to act. But there is this compassion for us all. As I say climate hostages because we're all kind of stuck in many ways in this area.

Do we want to go into more of the international and what we're? It seems like one of the many things you're doing, Charles, is really illustrating that eco anxiety and feelings about — even to step back and say everyone has feelings about nature. And the environment. And their connections. And their identity. And you've been studying this in different countries outside of the countries that are often listed in the studies. The Finlands and the US and the UK and Canada. Would you want to talk a bit about what you've been learning in your research the last few years?

Ogunbode: Yes. That's been a really interesting journey as well. And I think one of the reasons why kind of, it's got this resonance for me. I'm very driven to bring in, you know, the voices of the people we hear less about in this area. Especially to do with emotions and things. So there are a couple of things that have kind of dovetailed in that work to make me feel really invested in it. So the first part is before I started to think about emotions, in this way, I've always had this pet peeve about the concept of climate literacy. So there's been a lot of work out there where they rank countries around the world talking about, you know, what proportion of the population understand what climate change is. So usually, it's you know, they're familiar with the term as a technical term. Do they understand that it's caused by humans? Do they understand it? Very much that's the sort of technoscientific construct of climate change. And it's like, you know, how many people around the world share that understanding.

And I've always found that to be quite problematic, because when we look at places like Africa. When we look at parts of Asia. And when we look at, you know, people don't necessarily have access to the language. And that would be English or French. Or whatever, that dominant language of science is. But it doesn't mean that they don't have an understanding of climate change. They interact with climate change on a daily basis. they're affected by climate change. Their lives are shaped by climate change. And to say these people are not aware of, they're climate illiterate. It just feels very arrogant. And I found it quite problematic.

And more importantly, than that, the proposed solution was usually oh, we need to educate people. We need to give them more information so they really understand, you know, what the scope of the issue is and things like that. And while I'm sure a lot of the motivations behind this are completely benign, I just feel if we kind of thought about it, it'd be more critical. Especially in Africa. And I can mainly speak for Africa because I'm from Nigeria. And I've had that African experience. And I can say, you know, the English language, this sort of Western understanding of science approach to science came to us through colonization. So basically, saying that you want to educate people to bring them up to speed with your western understanding is essentially saying you want to reinforce those colonial processes. You know, the part and parcel of education is not neutral. In that sense.

So I feel the climate change research community hasn't necessarily been that critical, or adequately critical around that topic. And then the way it connects with eco anxiety work is also that in a lot of the work that has been done, again, in Africa, looking at, you know, the human side of climate change, and how it's experienced where the impacts are. The questions have been very basic. You know, the emphasis has been on, particularly sort of agrarian communities. And things like that. And, you know, are people able to feed themselves? Do they have access to water? You know, that kind of thing. And not that those aren't important questions. They are important questions. But the problem is, the research never really progressed beyond that. It's almost like, you know, as long as they're alive, it's fine. And none of the other things that are necessary to have a full meaningful life. Dignified life. Ever seems to be considered.

So that was why when the eco anxiety started to pick up as well, I thought, well, why are we not seeing anything really, outside of, you know, North America and Western Europe about this. Again, it's that same thing about how, you know, it's really important here. We have all these complex emotions. And all the things that are important, but other people around the world, we don't really bother to ask how they're feeling. So I thought that was something that needed to be set right. So that's been a big motivation to do the work that I've been involved in over the last couple of years. Trying to collect data on this from all over the world. And that work has been really rewarding because I then kind of connect it to other people. And it's become something even more than what I started out thinking about initially.

So initially, it was just about, look, we need to get a sense or get a measure of how people feel about climate change. It's not just about, you know, what they understand. Just how do they feel, at whatever level of understanding they are. Because I think emotions actually can tell us a lot about what people think. Beyond just asking someone, you know, how do you understand climate change? What does it mean to you, etc. I think we're quicker to be able to get a sense of how we feel about something before we're actually able to put it together cognitively to say, this is my attitude. And this is my belief. Or whatever. We just have that. You know, like intuition and things like that. I thought, you know, this is such a good way to bypass the poor climate literacy thing and just focus on how people feel.

Yes, so that's kind of been a big part of it. And then what's kind of also developed out of it more recently, that's become also quite exciting for me is, of course, we then had the projects. Invited loads of people. And work together. Gathered all this data. But then it goes thinking about the way we actually do the research. So it's not just about the questions we're asking and what issues we're tackling. But it's also, how did we get here? You know, we started with a very small group. It was myself and a bunch of colleagues from many European countries who started up the project. Essentially we came to it with an understanding of what climate anxiety was and invited people to help us figure out if that applied in a whole range of countries.

We never really asked our collaborators, you know, what's it like, from your side? You know, how do you think we should measure this? Does this even make sense to you? You know, so we've now more recently been spending a bit more time just kind of reflecting on the process. And also thinking about how potentially this could not only inform what's happening around climate, emotions research, but also become a template for psychological research on sustainability and climate change in general. To really, you know, properly embrace this global outlook and understanding. This idea is one way of seeing the world. One, society. One group is not more important than another one where we have a collective problem. And we need all, you know, perspectives. All hands on deck, basically, to make sense of it and navigate our way out of it.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for sharing all that. And I think there's hugely important things related to the colonial history. And how it links with climate science. And giving [an] emphasis on the lived experience of people. Often in the complexity. And also listening to other kinds of information than just, you know, the rational, cognitive, put into word type of thing. And sometimes folks in environmental education have also got very interesting results when they ask kids to make drawings, for example. And then people are very surprised at what actually comes out of that. Have you gotten feedback, for example, from Nigeria, or other countries?

Ogunbode: Yes. So, there's some work, which. We've gathered all this data. And we're going through it now. So the project I was involved in, which looks at people's understanding of climate change in eastern West Africa. So the West African side of the project focuses on Lagos, in Nigeria. It's a coastal city. It's the biggest economic center in the city. And it's got a very interesting sort of dynamic around climate change, because the government had invested a lot of money in climate change adaptation because essentially, the city is threatened by rising sea levels. And things like that. But in the process of delivering these climate adaptation projects, there's also been a lot of forced evacuations of some of the traditional communities that lived on the coast. And they're essentially making this development that also doubles as luxury housing for rich residents. So it's quite a complicated scenario there. So it's been really interesting to get all the data in from there. Talking to people in Lagos about their feelings about climate change. And what they understand climate change to be. What kinds of actions they're taking, etc. And we're just working our way through that data right now.

And then in East Africa, we also are working with communities in Kenya, Tanzania, and Uganda. Countries on the what's called on the coast of Lake Victoria Who sp depend on the lake for fishing. And we're talking to them about their experiences of climate change as well. And their feelings about it. How it impacts them, etc. And basically, when we started this project, at its core, it's a natural sciences project. So we've got this sort of modeler. We're doing all kinds of hydrological modeling in Lake Victoria to see what the scientific objective, you know, climate change trends are there. Same as with Lagos as well. And then the idea of the project was for our social sciences to come in. So there's myself and Caroline Van Den Berg, who is also an environmental psychologist at Utrecht. And colleagues in the University of Bergen as well. So a bunch of psychologists anyway constitute the social science side of the project. And we're supposed to come in basically and speak to people. Get their impression of what's going on with climate change. And then essentially bring this data to the objective natural sciences data. And see the degree to which there is agreement or not, in what people think compared with the measurements that have been taken by the scientists.

But it's been a really good opportunity, as I said, to kind of get a feel for how people think about it. And one of the interesting things actually I've been doing, which was how that photo came about. As the slide where I misspelled your name Panu. It was basically me applying your taxonomy of climate emotions to the reports that we got from people in Nigeria to see how much of those emotions you identified in your paper represented in the spontaneous accounts that people give. So all we've asked them is, how do you feel about climate change? That's it. There's no pre question. There's nothing. It's just their spontaneous reactions. And it's been really interesting to see what kinds of things we will come up with. It's raised a lot of questions actually about not just the emotions that people feel, but also the language that's available to them to describe the emotions that they have.

So it's been really interesting. So a lot of people the dominant emotion, strangely, seem to be indifferent. So it's been really interesting to try to delve into what that means. Because normally, when we think about indifference in the Western context, it's, you know, I think you described it actually, it is categorized in among these of hostile emotions. It's a rejection. It's, you know, of whatever the issue is. Whereas in Nigeria, it seems to be something closer to resignation. Where it's not coming from a place of not caring. But it's coming from a place of either, well, they're just so many other things. So many other pressing concerns. Or this just seems to be beyond my ability to do anything. So I'm just not. I'm not even going to be worried about it. Because that takes too much energy, you know. So that's a big one. And then in East Africa, the dominant feeling is sadness. You know, when you ask people they just say, oh, I'm really sad this is happening. I'm really sad about what the implications are going to be. I'm really sad because, you know, in the future we'll have less food. Or children will be, you know, negatively affected, etc. And, again, it's a negative emotion, but it's not one that really speaks of activation or action, if you know what I mean.

So yeah, it's really interesting, kind of looking through that data. And the plan is to try to feed it back to some of the local organizations working in these areas. And trying to think well, how can we, you know, what do we do to kind of support people and make sure that, you know, these feelings get channeled into some kind of action that will be beneficial for, you know, sort of just resolving the issues. The challenges that people are facing. Because to be realistic, for a lot of these people, they genuinely do not have a lot of means to have an impact. You know, so we're talking about people who are kind of disenfranchised as far as political systems are concerned. They're, you know, relative to someone like me or you, they're quite far away from the centers of power. If you know what I mean. They're not in a position to put pressure on leaders to do anything like that. So yeah, it's a very interesting scenario, where it's been really informative. Really helpful to be able to learn about it. And just bring that into, you know, my understanding. And my colleagues' understanding of just the global landscape of, you know, climate change. the human experience of climate change. Anyway.

Pihkala: That's very interesting. Just some brief comments from me. And then I'll drop the ball to Thomas. This issue of different words for emotions and feelings in different languages and cultures, is something me and Thomas have been very interested about. And, of course, the Finnish language plays a big role in that for me. And there's some things we have a word for, in affective phenomena in Finnish that don't exist in English. And the other way around. And what you are saying about indifference, for example, is highly interesting. Because I see many variations in sort of, kind of calm acceptance, totally calm. And it's difficult to find a word. But if you just can't do anything about it [the climate crisis], then you may have in a way engaged with it, but then just made the estimation that, you know, it's totally beyond me.

Ogunbode: Yeah.

Pihkala: That's something that I wonder if some language has a good word for that, which would bring the connotation instantly.

Ogunbode: Yeah.

Pihkala: What's on your mind, Thomas, when listening to this very rich conversation?

Doherty: Oh, yeah, I'm really, you know, to bring the listeners in particularly, I'm thinking of you listeners in the US. You know, I've been looking at the map just to orient myself. And I do recommend people pull out a map and just, you know, locate Lagos and Lake Victoria. And just to get a sense of the part of the world near the equator that we're talking about. And, you know, it's such a different context with colonialism, as you say. Just the political situation and cultures in Africa.

It makes sense once we look at this, why the findings would be that, you know, the sense of being able to take action. You know, it is more prominent in European countries and US countries. You know, wealthier countries. There's a lot I mean, for us, and for the listeners thinking about our emotions. So this idea of indifference and sadness. Which I think people feel in the US, too. I think actually parts of the US people feel very much similar. That's partly why we have political issues in the US. People are very much disenfranchised. We have a very unequal country. And so when we think about this calm acceptance, I wonder, is it, to get more nuanced again about the feelings, is it fatalism? Or is it also a kind of resilience? Right? So is it sort of like, we will endure. That's just, not having ever been to Africa, my sense of a lot of African cultures is there as a sense of resilience in the sense of endurance. This sense of humor. You know, the sense of teaching stories and things like that.

So I wonder about fatalism versus resilience. So that's one direction to go. And then just to acknowledge, and Charles, you might have thoughts about this too. You know, I feel like in places like the US and Finland, there is more of the sense of guilt and shame. As someone privileged. Whereas there's, probably in Africa, people feel guilty and shameful of their privilege. But the privileges are different.

Ogunbode: Yeah.

Doherty: Less evenly distributed through the countries. But I don't think people in Africa are immune to shame and guilt either. So just staying a little more with all these nuanced feelings would be interesting.

Ogunbode: Yeah. No, absolutely. I think those emotions are certainly relevant in that context, as well. And there was one person who explicitly used the term guilt. And they were talking about it in terms of. I mean, presently there's still a lot of people who don't quite realize that climate change is something that's driven by processes beyond their local context. So a lot of people would say, oh, it's because of the trees that are cut down, you know, somewhere down the road. Or it's because of those factories or some. So there's that sense of local responsibility. And there is some guilt around people. So most people wouldn't necessarily use the word guilt. There was that one person who did. But from the description of where they think these problems have come from, there is a sense of, we're doing a disservice to future generations and our kids and things like that.

So those emotions are perfectly relevant in that context. And that's part of the reason why I think there's emphasis on the technical understanding of climate change. And who has it? And who doesn't. It's the wrong direction to be looking at. Because the people arrive at the same kinds of outcomes. And have the same kinds of reactions. And they make logical judgments. And it's not so much the specific kinds of information that they're working with that really matter in that process. But it's how they come to make those judgments. How those feelings come to arise. And what the consequences of those feelings are. Those are the sorts of things that I think are probably more important. And so I think, to a large extent, there's sorts of drives to make restitution or restoration and things like that. I think they are present as well.

And these are the sorts of things that I'm really hoping that the more we can generate this kind of information. And get them in the hands of, you know, active campaigners and educators in this context, then they can really begin to channel those drives into more constructive channels. Because the other thing I find a bit frustrating sometimes is I've really appreciated the emergence of a focus on sub-climate justice, for example. Basically justice framings of the climate discourse. But I also see that within that, our role as African or people in the Global South in general, is to be the soft victim of the problem. And I think it's quite disempowering, in a way. And so I think we also need to not just, you know, while we're recognizing and engaging the structural issues, we also need to not lose sight of self worth. And, you know, people's individual and collective agency to make change within those systems as well

Pihkala: Yeah, that sounds like a hugely important point both that you're sharing. And I don't know how this is for you, because you are known now in many places as an eco-anxiety researcher. Do people come to you and ask how we should cope with eco-anxiety? And if they did, what would you say?

Ogunbode: I always refer them to people who I know are much more qualified than myself. So I've been really lucky to. For a while I was quite actively engaged with the Climate Psychology Alliance in the UK. Unfortunately, because I just work fresh and stuff going on, family life hasn't really been able to keep me involved as much as I would like. But they've been brilliant. And usually I just say, get in touch with the CPA. Okay, there's lots of really great people there.

Doherty: Yeah. I mean listeners should know that there's so many people working on all these issues all around the world. Charles, I mean, that people in every country you've done that are understanding climate change in their own way and working. And so people don't understand that piece. But then there is a lot, what I call the, you know, the climate elephant or the blind man and the elephant parable. Where everybody has different pieces of climate. And I feel for you, Charles being the human feelings researcher in a room full of climate adaptation people that are all focused on, you know, hydrology. Because human feelings are still disenfranchised in the climate discourse. You know, the emotions are less present in all the reports. And so there is this intellectual bias. And so that stuff.

But then even among the people that cares, there's like, well, who can help? Well, you can help, you know. And so the therapists are trying to come in, but then they feel like they don't understand hydrology. And they don't understand the climate. So it is a work in progress for all of us. So if people feel like an impostor, or they don't know enough, that's just quite normal for anyone engaging in this area. Yeah, we have time for maybe one more point. We can go a little over our time because it's such a rich discussion. Well how do we want to close off our discussion? Charles, is there something else that you want to bring in or that we didn't talk about? Or directions for the future?

Pihkala: Yeah. Thanks once more for dwelling on that. And as you sort of hinted before, that also helps the researchers. So that's my experience, both personally and with my colleagues. So that's the good side of it. And it's advancing a paradigm change, I think, I think you've been in many ways involved in this. And that's something for the listeners also. So no matter where you are, everybody can do something for this Great Turning. That would be Joanna Macy's word for it and other terms. So just being open to these issues, that's already a great step. So not going into that “I can't take this I want to stay away all the time”. [Instead:] “I want to stay.” Very grateful, Charles that you found the time to come and discuss. I've learned a lot today. And it's been a great pleasure.

Ogunbode: Yeah. Well, I mean, this is very much to do with what's been on my mind recently. But I think I'm gonna stay with this for a while, because I think there is a lot of value to working on this. And it ties into what you were saying just now about, you know, there. Suddenly, among psychology, there's a growing proportion of people who are really beginning to take emotions more seriously. Really, I've been really glad, since climate anxiety came around. You know, there are lots of ways we can critique the concept. And there are lots of, you know, issues with it. But it's done one thing, which I think is really important, which has given us this term to talk about emotions that most people can relate to. They know what you're talking about, when you say climate anxiety. They have some sense of it. So we can now talk about that. And what it means. And also it's helped us move away from why people are not worried enough. If only they were worried, then maybe we'll see more action. It's helped us move away from that to a more nuanced understanding of emotions. And that's really important.

And the other half of the equation that now needs to happen is how we then work together to really move this forward. And this is where it connects to what you were saying, Thomas, about, you've got a therapist. You've got people like myself who are just sort of like, you know, psychology researchers and things like that. And I think sometimes it's easy to lose sight of the greater goal. Just because of the incentives within academia. And how it works. And things like that. And it's almost like, you know, you're solving competition, one another, and things like that. But I think it's a really important sort of challenge for all of us to be able to in whatever way, whatever skills we've got on whatever, you know, capacities, we've got to read to, you know, keep in focus that all of these different things complement one another. You know, I've been in some meetings with other psychologists where there'll be some really searing critiques of, I don't know, more some like cognition oriented psychology. And I've been in meetings, I feel like, oh, well, I don't understand this psychosocial stuff or. You know, it very quickly descends into the sort of disciplinary tensions.

And I just don't think we can really afford that right now. I think we need to maybe put in a bit more effort in getting the different disciplines within psychology to kind of speak with one another and figure out how to kind of work together to achieve the bigger goals. You know, there's been a lot of work by people I really respect. You know, over the last few years. Lots of commentaries. Lots of opinion pieces. Lots of things trying to forge this vision for psychology around emotions research. And it would be great to see more work like that. More people coming together and trying to really push, you know, self drive that collective effort forward. Thank you so much for inviting me. I do feel like I'm in the company of really great people, because I've read so much. I read your work. I read Thomas's work from very early on in my PhD. So your papers with Susan sort of lay out, you know, I love those things. You know, actually do research on them and things. So I really appreciate it. It's great to actually be talking to you in person. And Panu, obviously, you've done tons of stuff. I can only aspire to, you know. So it's really good. So I hope that we will, you know, be able to carry on this conversation in another space at some point in the future.

Doherty: Yeah, me too. And Charles, thanks for carrying the fire and moving it forward and bringing it more worldwide attention. The idea of the ethic of care, I think, is a great takeaway. You know, responsibility for our emotions. And also for holding other people's emotions, even if they're different. Even if they're different. Underlying some of these academics, you know, debates are people's different emotions, too. And so like, you know, really caring for different kinds of climate emotions than our own is good for all of us. Well, thank you. And to the listeners, thanks for joining us again. If you like our content, please think about supporting our podcast. We're a self funded volunteer effort. You can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com, or on our Patreon page. And otherwise, Panu and Charles, you have a good evening. And I'm going to get on with the rest of my rainy day here in Oregon.

Ogunbode: Have a nice day, Thomas. Thank you, take care, Panu.

Doherty: Take care.

Pihkala: Take Thomas, Charles and all the listeners.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded, volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

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In this episode, Thomas and Panu confront an issue that has become commonplace as the impacts of climate change are more widely felt: How can we enjoy our time in natural settings and seek the restoration we crave when our awareness of environmental destruction and our feelings of ecological grief are so strong? Panu shared research about how climate grief is acutely impacting many young people and their emotional connection to places. Thomas reminded us that ecological grief has been a perennial challenge among ecologically aware people, even a strange privilege—citing Aldo Leopold’s famous dictum “One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds”—and looked back to his own youthful confrontations with old growth clearcuts with his “postmodern expeditions” practice. As we know from our podcast, we are not doomed to live alone with our feelings about the world. We can join with others that share our values and sense of urgency. And, as our recent discussion with Rosemary Randall taught us, grief is not solely a barrier but also a gateway, an invitation to new ways of being that mourn our losses and reinvest our energy back into life. So too with our potential for re-securing our attachments to places and restoring (re-storying) wounded places. Listen for more details and share in this important discussion.

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Thomas and Panu were joined by long-time writing teacher and former Oregon Poet Laureate Kim Stafford for an uplifting dialogue about creativity and finding daily inspiration in our relationship with nature. Kim shared poems, quotes and lessons drawn from his teaching and daily writing practice. Echoing British landscape writer Robert McFarlane, Kim observed: “A landscape that has not been evocatively described becomes easy to destroy.” As the days grow shorter in the Northern Hemisphere, join us for an energizing conversation that ranged across cultures from the epic poetry of Finland to Native American wisdom.

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Thomas and Panu were honored to host Rosemary Randall, pioneering British psychotherapist whose 2005 paper “A New Climate for Psychotherapy” and Carbon Conversations group anticipated the current Climate Conscious Therapy movement. Thomas and Ro reflected on the significance of Ro’s adaptation of psychological grief models to help support and empower members of the public who were experiencing distress as they confronted their own carbon footprints. Panu focused on Ro’s current sense of the emotional impacts of the climate crisis on young people and her new program on Living with the Climate Crisis with the UK Climate Psychology Alliance. As Ro has noted, “It’s a cliché that the antidote to climate despair is action. Far less attention is paid to the process of moving from a state of acute distress, anxiety and grief into a form of action that feels commensurate, practically possible and sustainable over time. This is the process which Living with the Climate Crisis groups aim to address.” Join us for a consoling and thought provoking conversation.

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homas and Panu discussed ecological guilt, a ubiquitous feeling many of us experience, but rarely explore deeply. Panu explained various levels of ecological guilt from small daily uneasiness about our activities and their ecological impacts to more troubling experiences of public shame and even species guilt. Thomas had insights about the levels or “volume knob” of this and other eco- and climate feelings and the societal forces at play in heightening our guilt feelings or minimizing them, and possible benefits of “ditching guilt” when it stifles our happiness and ability to take action to solve environmental problems. Panu and Thomas also recognized the paradox of having the privilege to feel guilty about issues like one’s carbon footprint and how an assumption of ecological guilt obscures other common emotional experiences about climate and environmental problems that people have around the world. What should we do about eco-guilt? Are we all climate hypocrites? Is taking action really an “antidote to despair”? Listen in on this surprisingly intriguing talk and then draw your own conclusions.

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As a follow up to their conversation with young climate and emotions researcher Isabel Coppola, Thomas and Panu spoke with Environmental Studies Professor Sarah Jaquette Ray, well-known for her writings on climate anxiety and social justice perspectives within the climate and environmental movements. Panu and Sarah collaborated on the Existential Toolkit for Climate Justice Educators Project. Sarah reflected on her own climate emotions journey and what she sees as her sacred role as a teacher and university professor, and the intensity of people reaching out to her about climate change. She noted her experience 7-10 years ago of being enlightened about issues of complicity and despair about climate change among students, and her effort to “go back to the drawing board and reinvent myself as a professor to meet the moment that students were asking for.” This included questioning the impulse among students that “burnout is actually the badge of how much I care” and breaking down traditional barriers in the academy between academic content and emotional support and self care provided by the counseling center. Panu was reminded of a concept he has been using in Finnish, “arkipäivän tilastoimaton hyvyys”, translated as “unaccounted everyday goodness” and referencing California writer Mike Davis, the speakers played with the concepts of “unmobilized love” and “immobilized love.” Sarah looked ahead to the Conference she is helping to organize in April 2023 at University California Riverside Environment, Justice, and the Politics of Emotion: A Virtual and In-Person Symposium along with our previous podcast guest Jade Sasser and other climate and emotions experts. Thomas noted the recent death of scholar Phillip Cushman whose works like the  paper “Why the Self is Empty” and book Constructing the Self, Constructing America are influential in critical psychology and ecopsychology. Join us for an enlightening dialog among leading climate thinkers.

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In this episode, Thomas and Panu spoke with their 23-year-old colleague Isabel Coppola, a recent graduate of the University of Vermont and a Fulbright Scholar who has studied with Panu in Finland. Isabel has been an intern on the Climate Change and Happiness podcast over the last year and has been intimately involved in the creation of episodes and transcripts, and in answering listeners’ email messages. Isabel shared lessons from her thesis “Ecoanxiety in the Climate Generation: Is Action an Antidote?” She discussed her favorite CCH podcast episodes and her future plans. Isabel also reflected on her own lived experience of coping with her “unhinged anxiety” about climate change in her teenage years, and recognition of her relative privilege growing up in a picturesque forested town in New England in the US. Panu added insights about climate emotions and Thomas about environmental identity. Join us for a discussion of a young scholar’s early journey.

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In Season 2, Episode 1, Panu and Thomas reflect on the core question of the Climate Change and Happiness podcast (what does it mean to be “happy” in an era of far reaching and often catastrophic environmental changes) – and particularly how it feels “right now” in Summer 2022 as so many places cope with heat, fires and drought. While young people have known of climate change their entire life, adults and elders can look back to when they first heard about the concept and to the innocence or “blessed unknowing” (using Panu’s evocative term) of that time. Practicing “active hope” Panu and Thomas discussed positive events including the passage of long overdue climate legislation in the US and Thomas’s inspiring dialog with the young creators of the ClimaTwins podcast. To capture his emotional tone this summer, Thomas shared the concept of “In Medias Res” a story-telling device that plunges the audience right into the middle of the action without a preamble (from Latin, literally, into the midst of things). This can also become a conscious coping technique: Being mindful of our state of being thrown into the midst of the world, and pulling back like a film director to remind ourselves of our history and where we want our personal story to go. Panu identified with this, and listeners may find this helpful as well. As always, there are links to some of the topics and ideas that Panu and Thomas discussed.

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Episode 17 features some intimate sharing between Panu and Thomas about their travels and adventures as young men and how this influenced their environmental identities. They looked back at their efforts as “apprentices” and “artisans” in their work on eco- and climate emotions, referencing the Soulcentric Developmental Model of US Depth Psychologist Bill Plotkin. Thomas recognized some key developmental journeys in his life: “going off to the big city,” finding his ancestral and natural place roots in Ireland, traveling “west” in the US to places like Alaska and Grand Canyon. Panu similarly reminisced about his formative youthful hiking experiences in Finland and Iceland. They discussed the process of wilderness therapy and rites of passage, and recognized the “pride of living outside of the culture” and being more attuned to wildness in people who do that work the world-over (as captured in journey narratives like “Into the Wild”). Panu discussed the ideals of spiritual pilgrimage and “slow travel” and Thomas echoed the Henry David Thoreau maxim, “The swiftest traveler goes afoot.” Panu also noted that “the innocence of traveling is strongly challenged” in our era of “flight shame,” now that we need to be aware of the carbon footprint of our life journeys. This adds a unique challenge for young people. Panu mused: Can there be intergenerational justice about travel, and could young people have carbon credits to partake of the same youthful travels that their forebears took for granted? Or can cleaner travel systems like rail be expanded? We can reasonably think of the global climate emergency as a multi-generational planetary rite of passage with numerous opportunities for personal and collective quests, heroic acts, and dealing with the dark side of human nature and the shadow sides of our societies and industrial economies. Our listeners are invited to consider their own life journeys, young adult migrations, current quests, and what pace is most healthy for them at this point in their lives.

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In Episode 16, Thomas and Panu had an enlightening conversation with Elin Kelsey, environmental educator and author of Hope Matters. Panu and Elin spoke of their collaborations in Finland and the importance of taking time for reflection in the “culture of urgency” we have about climate change. Elin shared the concept of “solutions journalism” and noted that only 2-3% of news we hear about climate change discusses currently available solutions. The insight is that a scarcity of hope is also a perceptual issue—given the problem-oriented biases of academia, journalism and scientific reports, we do not get enough positive information to feed a healthy sense of hope about progress addressing the climate emergency. Panu, Elin and Thomas considered early examples of hope practices, the current solutions-focused influencing of Tik-Tok science educator Alaina Wood (aka The Garbage Queen), detours like “bright-siding” and toxic forms of hope and negativity, and the healthy place for moments of hopelessness in our flow of emotions as they can signal when an old path is done and new path needs to begin. Join us and update your ideas about hope!

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Part 2 of our exploration of climate emotions through music: Thomas’s playlist “Shifting Basslines of the Cornucopians” — its title inspired by the Snapped Ankles number, and having a double meaning: Shifting bass lines in the music that inspires us and “Shifting Baselines” in how each generation perceives the natural world. As Thomas notes: “My themes are water and fire, being a hostage to Capitalism and Climate Change, finding refuge, transformation, and our all-togetherness during these challenging times. As Courtney John sings “Yes we are sailing in a different boat. But we are sailing in the same ocean.” In my mix, I am inspired by a variety of sources, the old time music of the Carter Family, the cathartic punk of The Thermals, the immersive ‘Become…’ series of Alaskan composer John Luther Adams, and the tribal techno of ‘Land Back.’ We are nostalgic (and solastalgic) about the beautiful ‘Flatlands’ in ‘The World We Knew’ while the ‘Sword of Damocles’ hangs over our heads. In this ‘Cruel Summer’ with ‘No Snow on the Mountain’ we hope that ‘Somewhere’ there is a place for us.”

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It has been said: “Where words leave off, music begins.” The climate emergency challenges us to find words for so many feelings: Loneliness and connection, pain and loss, endurance, dedication, creativity and joy. In this two-episode series, Panu and Thomas share personal music playlists based on a simple assignment: “Music and climate emotions.” Thomas and Panu discuss the important role music plays in their coping and wellbeing, and examples of climate change-focused musical endeavors. Panu begins with a selection of 15 tracks from a variety of artists. He notes “this playlist is an emotional journey. The atmospheres … are more important than the lyrics, but some tracks have also been selected because of their lyrics. The playlist does follow roughly a process of crisis. There are fluctuations of sorrow and anger, but also of hope and beauty—as in our lives amidst the ecological crisis.” Music is a universal emotional language. Listen along and let us know about the music that inspires you to express your climate feelings.

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In this new episode, Thomas and Panu look back to a discussion they had in October 2021 about coping with the COVID-19 pandemic and how this compares with coping with climate change. As you listen, reflect on your own experiences of COVID-19 pandemic in the midst of the larger climate crisis. Back in 2021, it was clear these overlapping problems had pushed us to extend our capacity to be with our feelings amidst extreme hardship and challenge — now Panu and Thomas have been touched by COVID personally. In hindsight, Panu’s COVID and climate research and Thomas’s coping strategies ring true. Their wide-ranging 2021 dialog touched on wise use of media and avoiding “cyberchondria,” calibrating our anxiety alarm systems, restoring ourselves in the face of “macro worries,” and the importance of gratitude and embodying “love in action.” A key take away, then as now: Some suppression of emotions is quite useful and healthy in the midst of a crisis. The challenge is to be conscious of this process, and to come back to our emotional expression when we have the opportunity —for this is where we learn and grow.

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In this episode, Panu and Thomas are joined by Finnish therapists Sanni Saarimäki and Taneli Saari to discuss the Finnish “scene” around eco-anxiety and climate emotions. After discussing their own paths towards working with climate emotions, Sanni and Taneli introduce both the Finnish National Project and Tunne ry (an organization focusing on eco-emotions), whose work is apparently the first such project funded at a national level in the world. Together the four discuss the Shouting Man project as a unique and cathartic way to express climate emotions and also explore the role of therapy methods such as Acceptance and Commitment Therapy in a climate and environmental context.

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Reflecting on the recent self-immolation of climate activist Wynn Bruce as a protest and call to action in the face of climate change, Thomas and Panu discuss the importance of bearing witness to emotionally difficult events. In the teaching of systems thinker, Joanna Macy, they acknowledge both the difficulty and value of staying open to the world even when it is painful and seemingly impossible. Inspired by the writings of Daniel Sherrell in his book Warmth, they reflect on the importance of not reducing all of our climate feelings “into their utility for the movement,” but rather allowing some to exist solely unto themselves.

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Dark times for dark emotions. In this episode recorded near the end of 2021, Thomas and Panu open the door to the feeling of cynicism and its “friends” apathy, shame, melancholia, “learned helplessness” disillusionment, and misanthropy [dislike of humankind]. They discuss how to be compassionate to ourselves and accept these feelings as inevitable reactions during our current political and environmental crises. They explore cynicism as a way of being realistic about the world, as a protective feeling or style, and from a philosophical perspective as living well in difficult situations, eschewing the trappings of the world and seeking one’s own path of virtue. Thomas discusses how his misanthropy tends to be directed at unjust human systems rather than human nature. Panu highlights a number of thinkers and artists that offer ways to understand and work through our doubt and despair. Is it possible to discover a “post-cynical” position in our deep adaptation to climate change? What is the role of self-sacrifice as an option?

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This episode is part two of Climate Change and Happiness’s series focusing on childbearing decisions in a time of climate disruption. Science journalist and Gen Dread creator Britt Wray joins Thomas and Panu. Britt describes her “long and winding road” through climate emotions, inspired by her own journey toward having a child. She and Panu reminisce about their earlier conversations about grief and survivorship when Britt was beginning her research. Britt notes her personal shift from “asking is it okay to have a child, to what's required to have a child today? How do we support children in this world?” Thomas noted how Britt’s public exploration of her parenting decisions through her Gen Dread newsletter has filled a void for prospective parents as therapists and mental health continue to become schooled in addressing climate concerns. Wray offers a look into her forthcoming book Generation Dread that compiles her insights about coping and meaning-making amid the climate crisis. Britt reminds us that making decisions about having a child, or not, does not mean that feelings about the climate crisis fade away, and she normalizes how we all can find ourselves toggling between “disaster mode” and quiet contemplation of the cosmos. Join us for a rich and intimate conversation.

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Climate Change and Happiness Episode 8 begins a two-part series focusing on childbearing decisions in this time of increasing climate disruption. Panu and Thomas are joined by feminist scholar Jade Sasser whose research investigates the impacts of climate change, racial injustice, and other existential threats on human reproductive decisions. Together they explore how climate change is interpreted by potential parents and grandparents of different generations and cultures. They discover how, in Jade’s words, children “symbolize and represent so many hopes, dreams, fears, anxieties, desires to make the world better.”

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When we face a challenge like global climate change, none of us is “enough.” Thomas and Panu center this episode’s conversation around naming feelings of inadequacy [in Finnish riittämättömyyden tunne: the feeling of not being enough or doing enough]. They share ways to work through this common feeling, balancing acceptance, action and rest. Panu differentiates various shades of anxiety in relation to feeling inadequate in the face of the climate crisis, including anxiety of responsibility, anxiety of freedom and anxiety of guilt. When we work toward sustainability, it’s not just an ideal or a policy. We also have to make it personal with concrete actions. Panu shares his experience at Omavaraopisto [The School of Self Sufficiency] in Finland. Thomas talks about the importance of adding “some concrete things to our very abstract worlds.” He shares the image of an upside down pyramid that he uses with his clients — a tool for restabilizing ourselves when overwhelmed and bringing our focus back to healthy daily activities — to give us energy and meaning for the long haul. Take a moment, when you can, to give some honest feedback when you notice you or someone else is being enough.

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In a conversation recorded during the recent COP 26 meeting, Susan Clayton, a colleague and noted social and conservation psychology researcher, joined Thomas and Panu. Together they discussed the important role that our environmental identity plays in helping us understand our values and desires about nature and addressing environmental issues. Susan talked about her role as a psychologist serving on the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), and the positive emotions that arise engaging with a truly international group of gifted scientists. Thomas reflected on “climate flow” — a sense of flow and shared mission that emerges when we have the opportunity to collaborate on climate issues. Panu also recognized the “climate isolation” and “climate loneliness” that can take hold when we lack a support network for talking about climate emotions. Susan also spoke about her conservation psychology work with zoos and aquariums. This episode itself serves as an example of the flow that emerges from creative dialog with others who share our interests and values, even when talking about daunting issues.

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In this episode, Thomas and Panu talk about connections and meaning-making—looking at climate feelings through the lens of synergy. They are constantly surprised at the positive energy they discover as they meet and collaborate with others around the world—such as during Panu’s work on the recent Lancet global youth study—and the validation they gain from learning about those who made similar discoveries in the past. In order to navigate this time in history with its dark ecology of overlapping crises, from climate to COVID to armed conflict, we need to open toward shared energy, efforts, and resources that sustain us. In a timely lesson, Thomas describes how to go on a “media diet”—engaging  with media intentionally rather than in an impulsive and uncontrolled way—one tool for centering yourself and broadening engagement with your local place. He reminds listeners that ultimately their life is the most important news. Through positive synergies we can find meaning in the time we are given. Join us!

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Thomas and Panu welcome Quebecois psychologist Karine St. Jean as their first guest on the podcast. Karine practices mindfulness and uses Acceptance Commitment Therapy (ACT) in her climate-focused work with clients in Montreal, Canada. In a wide ranging discussion, the three discuss the value of sitting with challenging feelings and maintaining flexibility in terms of sustainability action. Karine emphasizes the value in “meaningful faith” and finding “collective meaning”  in honoring the positive and negative emotions that come up around issues of the environment. Thomas recognizes some important works that integrate Buddhism and ecology as well as concepts like hyper-empathy that take on added meaning in the context of the climate crisis. Panu rounds out the discussion by introducing the concept of “binocular vision” as a way to hold multiple emotions in awareness as we grapple with complex 21st century dilemmas.

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How do we navigate eco-anxiety as an idea and as a feeling? Is it one thing or many things? Thomas and Panu talk about eco-anxiety, or “ympäristöahdistus” in Finnish, as a primal emotion, as a feeling we can describe in various languages, as a cultural idea, and as a psychiatric diagnosis. They give a history of the concept of eco- or environmental anxiety in psychology research and in pop culture. Eco-anxiety predates concerns about the climate crisis to take in the Rachel’s Carson’s warnings in “Silent Spring” about human-made chemicals in the ecosystem and global anxiety about nuclear destruction felt during the cold war. Eco-anxiety is a practical emotion, and it can be debilitating at times. You are not alone with this.

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Safe spaces are crucial for the expression of climate feelings. Thomas and Panu talk about the loneliness people feel about climate experiences. What does it take to “hold space” for climate feelings, to “stand one’s ground” and “contain” experiences of sadness, grief or rage; and to practice  “climate cosmopolitanism”? Panu looks back to pioneering work by Chellis Glendinning and shares Tim Jensen’s more recent concept of “ecologies of guilt.” Thomas reminds us of the role of values and that “We hurt where we care” echoing the writing of psychologist Steven Hayes, and classic insights about the “pains of an ecological education” going back to Aldo Leopold.

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Welcome to the Climate Change and Happiness podcast. You’ll meet hosts Dr. Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala. Panu talks about his books and workshops on climate feelings, drawing on his background in eco-theology. Thomas speaks from the front lines of research into the mental health impacts of climate change, and shares insights about coping from his counseling practice. In this and future episodes, listeners learn a new vocabulary for climate feelings, drawing from different languages and insights from mental health therapy. “Climate Change and Happiness” is a provocative title. What does it mean to be happy at this time? We invite you to join us on this journey.