Coworking Out Loud: Recent Episodes
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In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, Cat Johnson chats with Caleb Parker founder and CEO of the Brave Corporation. A longtime thought leader in coworking and the flexspace industry, Caleb is also a talented brand builder and content creator. Connect with Caleb Parker:Caleb Parker on LinkedInBrave CorporationMisfits Mindset Podcast Watch the full episode on […]
In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, Cat Johnson talks about what the co in coworking means to her and why she believes in the power of community and connection to carry us through to a new era of humanness. Watch the full episode on YouTube and subscribe to get first-access to new episodes. Links […]
In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, Cat Johnson talks with Reuben Lau, founder of Spacefully. Reuben is a digital marketing expert specializing in helping coworking spaces attract members. I love talking marketing with Reuben as our skillsets and specialties compliment each other very well. Have a listen and join us in The Lab for […]
In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, Cat Johnson talks with Lauren Walker, CMO at Coworks. Lauren is one of the best creators in coworking, full stop. It was a pleasure to dig into content creation, content marketing and coworking with her. Enjoy the show. Connect with Lauren WalkerCoworksLauren Walker on LinkedIn Watch the full […]
In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, Cat Johnson talks with Craig Baute from Denswap and Creative Density. Craig has 12 years of experience running indie coworking spaces and has a wealth of data and insights gathered from his work with Denswap. It’s always a pleasure to learn from Craig and hear his heartfelt thoughts […]
In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, Cat Johnson talks with Kevin Whelan from Everspaces. Kevin is a fantastic content creator, advisor and more. He also understands coworking and the power of content marketing. It’s always a pleasure to learn from Kevin and nerd out on marketing, content and brand with him. Enjoy the show. […]
In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, I talk with the one and only Garrett Tichy, who is a dear friend and the mastermind behind Hygge Coworking and now part of the Cohatch empire.
Garrett is real deal. He's authentic, he's vulnerable, he's open. And he knows what he's doing. He's built some amazing things in coworking and beyond.
Enjoy the show.
Connect with Garrett Tichy: Hygge Coworking Garrett on LinkedIn
Watch the full episode on YouTube
Links + Props Resources for coworking space operators at catjohnson.co Register for the next Coworking Convo Join The Lab, the club for indie coworking spaces
🎶 Music by Grip Grand
🎥 Episode recorded on Riverside.fm
In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, Cat Johnson talks with powerhouse and all-around go-getter Kate Schwarzler from Indy Commons in Independence, Oregon. Kate is hyper-focused on the regional economic and social impact coworking can make through supporting entrepreneurs and small businesses.
Connect with Kate Schwarzler and Indy Commons: indycommons.com Kate on LinkedIn
Watch full episode on YouTube
Links + Props Resources for coworking space operators at catjohnson.co Register for the next Coworking Convo Join The Lab, the club for indie coworking spaces
🎶 Music by Grip Grand
🎥 Episode recorded on Riverside.fm
Here's a Coworking Out Loud Hot Take for you.
A common mistake that I see coworking space operators make is to try to build community from the outside or from above as though you're building something that's separate from you.
You must embed yourself within the community. All of your members are little points of light, of energy, and you're also one of those points of light and energy.
You have unique responsibilities and a unique role as the community builder and leader. But nonetheless, you are still part of that community.
So to help you do that, be willing to show up as your whole self, share your challenges, share your wins, share your vision for the space and community, ask for input and feedback, let people help you shape it, ask for help when you need it.
The more you can come from a place of being part of the community, the richer and more engaged and authentic your community will be.
Don't try to build your community from the outside or from above. That will never ring true. Be willing to jump into the middle of your community, be brave, be courageous, be your awesome self, and your community will thrive for it.
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Links + Props Resources for coworking space operators at catjohnson.co Register for the next Coworking Convo Join The Lab, the club for indie coworking spaces
In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, Cat Johnson talks with video creator, community builder, AV professional and all-around amazing human Alesia Hendley about being willing to be uncomfortable, the slow roll as a creator and using our differences to grow communities and careers.
Connect with Alesia Hendley:thesmoothfactor.comLinkedInTwitter
Watch full episode on YouTube
Links + PropsResources for coworking space operators at catjohnson.coRegister for the next Coworking ConvoJoin The Lab, the club for indie coworking spaces
🎶 Music by Grip Grand
🎥 Episode recorded on Riverside.fm
In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, somatic psychotherapist and coworking pioneer Laura Shook Guzman talks with Cat Johnson about entrepreneurial mental health, getting curious about what drives you abd the challenges of living up to your potential.
Connect with Laura Shook Guzman:laurashookguzman.comTools4FoundersFounders TabooWomen Who CoworkLaura on LinkedIn
Watch full episode on YouTube
Links + Props🔗 More resources for coworking space operators at catjohnson.co🔗 Register for the next Coworking Convo🔗 Join The Lab, the club for indie coworking spaces
🎶 Music by Grip Grand
🎥 Recorded on Riverside.fm
In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, DeShawn Brown from Coworks and Cat Johnson talk about being a product of coworking, the intersection of community and tech, and how coworking space operators have a ridiculously challenging job that involves high emotional work and being able to task switch constantly.
Connect with DeShawn Brown on LinkedIn
Connect with Coworks: WebsiteCoworks BlogInstagramLinkedIn
Watch full episode on YouTube
Links + Props🔗 More resources for coworking space operators at catjohnson.co🔗 Register for the next Coworking Convo🔗 Join The Lab, the club for indie coworking spaces
🎶 Music by Grip Grand
🎥 Recorded on Riverside.fm
In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, Liz Elam and Cat Johnson talk about coworking's return to "co," the power of community to support and create well-being, the bonkers lineup for GCUC Chicago in April and more.
Connect with Liz Elam on LinkedIn
Connect with GCUC (The Global Coworking Unconference Community)gcuc.coInstagram LinkedIn Facebook
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Links + Props🔗 catjohnson.co | Coworking Convo | The Lab
🎶 Music by Grip Grand
🎥 Recorded on Riverside.fm
In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, Ev Chapman and Cat Johnson talk about the inner work of becoming a creator, how coworking space operators should think about their content, and the fact that brands that don't invest in content will get left behind because the creators are coming for you.
🙌 Connect with Ev Chapman: evchapman.comTwitter Instagram YouTube
Watch full episode on YouTube
Links + Props🔗 catjohnson.co | Coworking Convo | The Lab
🎶 Music by Grip Grand
🎥 Recorded on Riverside.fm
In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, Cat Johnson talks with Karina Patel, COO at Her First $100K and the Marketing Coach at CJCo, about social media for coworking spaces and community builders, avoiding overwhelm, choosing the right channels and more.
Karina spent eight years at Pacific Workplaces as their Marketing Director & CMO, and has collaborated with me and CJCo for five years. She now heads operations for a media company that produces a top charting business podcast called Financial Feminist and recently published the New York Times bestseller Financial Feminist.
Take the Social Media Audit: 5-Day Challenge
Connect with Karina Patel on LinkedIn and Instagram.
Links + Props🔗 catjohnson.co | Coworking Convo | The Lab
🎶 Music by Grip Grand
📺 Watch full episode on YouTube
🎥 Recorded on Riverside.fm
In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, I chatted with Matthew Holman, head of growth at Qpilot, a tool to help you manage your subscription software.
Matthew caught my attention when he was incredibly brave and vulnerable with some content he shared.
We talked about his transition from being incarcerated to being a community builder, his approach to content and marketing and the vision for a world we'd both like to live in.
Learn more about QPilotConnect with Matthew Holman on LinkedIn
Check the episode out and let me know what you think.
Links + Props🔗 catjohnson.co | Coworking Convo | The Lab
🎶 Music by Grip Grand
📺 Watch full episode on YouTube
🎥 Recorded on Riverside.fm
In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, I chat with John Huntinghouse, the VP of Marketing at TAB Bank about challenging your marketing assumptions, creating truly customer-driven brands and his unusual path from pre-med to marketing.
John is a wealth of knowledge about marketing, leadership and metrics. His background as a researcher gives a unique angle to his marketing: he is all about experimenting, creating hypotheses, testing those hypotheses and moving forward from the insights gleaned.
Check the episode out and let me know what you think.
👉 Follow John on LinkedIn for a steady stream of insights and inspiration.
Links + Props
🔗 catjohnson.co | Coworking Convos | The Lab
🎶 Music by Grip Grand
📺 Watch full episode on YouTube
🎥 Recorded with Riverside.fm
In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, I chatted with Emilie Lashmar, creative director at Platf9rm, a brilliant coworking brand and community out of Brighton and Hove in East Sussex, England.
Emilie and I are aligned on so many things around coworking, content and community. We definitely speak the same language.
I've used Platf9rm as an example of how to establish a strong and purposeful regional presence for your workspace.
Learn more about Platf9rm Connect with Emilie on LinkedIn
Check the episode out and let me know what you think.
Links + Props
🔗 catjohnson.co | Coworking Convo | The Lab
🎶 Music by Grip Grand
📺 Watch full episode on YouTube
🎥 Recorded on Riverside.fm
Transcript: Welcome to Coworking Out Loud, where we explore the deeper side of coworking, content and community. I'm your host cat Johnson
Hey friends in this episode of coworking out loud I'm chatting with Emilie Lashmar, who is the creative director at Platf9rm, an amazing brand out of Brighton in the UK. Emilie and I are aligned on so many things vision, values, content, community. We had a fantastic conversation and even are considering figuring out how to bottle vibe. Have a listen. Hope you like it.
Welcome to coworking out loud. Emilie, I am absolutely delighted to be connecting with you. And thank you so much for having me. It's it's been a long time coming. So I'm glad that we finally have made this work.
Absolutely. I think the last time we were in the same place was at GCUC UK a few years ago. And we just got to nerd out on content marketing and different strategies. And right away I knew that we speak the same language.
Yet definitely. It was all around mainly around community, wasn't it? In different partnership and making sure that you're talking to your core customer. And us, you saw all the all the cool things we were doing on our on on social media? And I think I was yeah, it was very flattered.
You know, let's jump right into that, because that's one of the things I wanted to touch on. And I'll circle back to learn a little bit more about you. But I'm so impressed with platform nine social media, I'm so impressed with the brand. And I've used you as an example numerous times in workshops of how to loop in the external community, make them part of your brand, like the way you showcase like how you know you're a brightoner and different things like that. So will you just talk like some big picture about how you approach content for platform nine?
Yeah, of course, I think right at the beginning because nobody knew it. Platform nine kind of arrived out of nowhere. Brighton and Hove is also for those that don't know it's in on the south coast in the UK. It's only a city, it doesn't have a cathedral. But we were Brighton and Hove became a city. The Queen let us have it because of the population and the size. But we're sandwiched between the sea and the South Downs. And it's quite a unique place.
There is already a really deep sense of community in Brighton, lots of artists, lots of creatives, but also lots of startups and loads of people that want that quick connection to London, but perhaps, you know, one, a little bit of London and Brighton. And platform nine came out of nowhere. The founder had moved down from London and he created platform nine which was the there are eight platforms at Brighton station, and he wanted to create a new destination in Brighton. So thus platform nine The name was born.
And I think when I joined as one of the first employees, my whole kind of marketing and content strategy approach was about really celebrating what Brighton is all about. And Brighton is love a Brighton independent business. And that's what we were and we wanted to attract other independent like minded individuals. And I think the best way to do that was to celebrate the members that we had, and what made the city so great, and the the traits and the values of the people that live here. So that was really what it was, it was about speaking to people that wanted to make Brighton a better place to live and work, people that valued their life, you know, as a well rounded kind of idea as opposed to necessarily grinding, but also what but people that were also ambitious. So I think it really at the beginning became what sort of directed it was talking to what people want and what people were feeling and what people wanted. And I think celebrating other people's achievements is always a really lovely way and we record platform nine we are a platform for others, a platform for partnerships and, and so all of that kind of directed the content strategy right from the beginning. It's obviously evolved since then.
It's so brilliant though when especially when you say popped out of nowhere. Coworking space operators have to do a lot of educating especially if they're the first or the first few spaces in a town and I love the idea that you immediately kind of embedded within Brighton instead of trying to drag people to something they didn't know what it was you were you immediately looped into the larger community and you still do that really well with social and with your content, that it's really a celebration of Brighton a celebration of the people. And then it feels really like this open door that people can then come check out the space because it's just an extension of who they are.
Exactly, we've always really tried to cocreate with the members and with the team and with other people that I think other organizations, whether that's a charity, or a cultural organization, or businesses or whatever it might be, but that share sort of similar values. And that kind of helps to strengthen your brand, because you're partnering and celebrating with them. We always used to joke as well that we wanted platform nine to feel, I wanted it to feel like the Cheers bar, you know, like you walk in, and everybody knows your name, like that's the kind of feeling I want.
We have a big pub culture here as well. I think we have more pubs per square mile than anywhere in the UK, I might be wrong, but there are so many pubs in Brighton. And in my 20s, I used to frequent them a lot. And when you do that, you end up knowing all the bar staff, you know, people are like, Hey Emilie, or, and when I worked in pubs when I was 18, I would see people park in the carpark and be pulling the pint of Guinness that I knew that they wanted so that when they arrived at the bar, it's already there for them. And I think that that's something that in terms of brand, it's not just really in the strategy, like the content strategy and or social media. Of course, they're all important in your logo in your in your copy in your messaging, but it really is at every touchpoint. So it's from that first moment they've walked through the door, welcome them, make them feel comfortable, ask them loads of questions, you know, listen to what they're looking for from that coworking space, and then kind of pin point or direct them or try to help them to get the best out of it. But always making them feel like they're part of it and that they belong.
Yeah, one of the things I love about platform nine, just from watching from over here, is it's such a strong brand. But when I see photos inside the space, it feels really warm and cozy. Like everybody's connecting and knows each other. I think that's an interesting and sometimes challenging balance to strike. Because we're seeing more and more super fabulous spaces. And then we're seeing a lot of community focused spaces. And striking that balance of the two, where it has all the professional amenities and all the things that we members need, but it also feels warm and cozy. That's an interesting challenge.
Yeah, I think a lot of that is to credit Rich Brett and Nathan's over we like today who are the architects that said engaged with to design platform nine. And I think that was really part of his he wanted it to feel like Brighton. It's imaginative, it's playful, kind of space, Hove. It feels like you're like a like an adult at like a, I don't know, it's like, the walls are like Scratch and sniff like everything's tactile, you want to touch everything, scratch it, smell it, lick it. Like it's, it's, he really worked with the materials of the space or the colors are so considered. And also it's playful. So wherever you are in the space, you can almost see or you can see something else going on. So you have this kind of you can tuck yourself away and get your head down. But you also have a sense of FOMO. And you're always seeing something that's happening or people connecting. And I think that really adds to the that kind of the elusive vibe that is quite hard to kind of do if you just fill a room with desks and chairs and a coffee machine and call it co working like I think you have to be quite clever, and get creative to get to get to achieve what platinum line has. And we'd like to do did a great job with that.
Agreed a 100%. And I'm seeing more and more people are reaching out to me where they've opened a space whether as a landlord, business owner, franchisee whatever, they get all the things in place, open the doors, and they're like, now what, right? Like what do we do now? Like you just said, that elusive vibe that you know it when you feel it. And you also know when it's lacking and when it's lacking like I've I've been a co working member for a lot of years. And I've worked out of a lot of spaces, and some of them have it and some of them don't. And it's not just a flip a switch kind of thing. Like here's the checklist of things to do. It's like an all day everyday kind of thing.
Yeah, I completely agree. There are so many developers that wish like if you could bottle vibe and sell it, you'd make so much money because there's so many big developers that you know have to have an element of coworking on. I think that's going to tick a few boxes for what they need in a development. But it just ends up being a bit like flat. And I think but it's a combination of things. It's, you know, and and it's the small subtleties, as well, as I said, made some decisions right at the beginning that he didn't want to have been to coffee machine, he really wanted to have a coffee grinder in the space to get that kind of coffee culture than the smell of coffee. So it's, it's not just about coffee, but it's about the small subtleties of decisions that you make. It's about all of the senses that music was so important to us at the beginning, me and Seb would talk about how we would curate the kind of experience when it came down to the playlists, you know, and it's multifaceted to get it right. And even you're right, even if you have the checklist, I think it's all down to seven different things. And also the people that make it what it is.
Yeah, the music like what it is, where it is, how loud it is, is a huge thing. And the coffee machine, I was thinking about this the other day, we have a really nice coffee machine here. And it grinds for each cup. There are days where I've been like, should I go in? Or should I work from home today, and I thought, oh, going because I can get good coffee. Like, I don't think that operators understand that coffee is not just something you check off. It's like those of us who want good coffee and good tea, it's a really big deal. It is sometimes the thing that gets us to come into the space.
Yeah, I completely agree. I think we're also missing out on sort of the events side of things, or the the creating of the community and creating those moments of serendipity, which I think that was a big thing at the at the beginning. And what Rich wanted to do with the physical space, it's creating these pockets where people, you know, will collide, they will bump into each other, they will have these moments where they they can connect and talk. But events do that really, really well as well. If you can put on kind of thought provoking thought leadership, or events where people can be vulnerable and and connect on a deeper level, or they can be inspired, or they can learn from a workshop or they can feel part of a course like there are so many different types. I think part of why we have a lot of great content and good social media is because we put on a lot of great cultural programming type events as well.
I have noticed that and it you can tell it's baked into platform because you have that event space, the little amphitheater that I see all the time. I'm glad that you brought that up because I wanted to touch on how you use events to bring in the larger community but also what like what you just said, platform nine really pushes conversations forward. Like you have conversations that may be tricky. You have conversations where people can be vulnerable, you open conversations that are kind of touchy, and I love that I love that you're doing that it's really setting a tone. Not just in Brighton, not just in platform nine but for coworking like let's have some of those conversations, let's use coworking as a way to move things forward. And I just adore that. Do you want to talk a little bit about just how you approach programming, and also what that looks like. Now I know, during COVID, everything got flipped upside down. So what's that looking like these days?
Yeah, of course, I think you have to really think about who's in your space. First and foremost, and what those people come to your space for. If you're predominantly a coworking space that just has monthly to monthly freelancers, for example, then your cultural program might look very different to if you have a bit more of a mixture. So if you have, you know, startups or scale ups, or much larger companies that might have a hub and use users as a place to have their offshoot so I think thinking around who will be coming to the events, and who is it for? What do you want them to feel when they're there? And what sort of speakers what topics we have different pillars for our event strategy around connection or physical is really important.
We don't just like doing events in our space. We also like with going on wild walks and swims or we have a partnership with Kim slay who takes people on these mini adventures so last Christmas, they all went around a campfire and toasted marshmallows or they'll they'll go to a secret beach that not many people in Brighton have been to before and they'll have a swim and there'll be hot drinks that he will make over a fire and they're kind of these special moments so but then also do badminton or sports days where you can kind of brings people together. It's sometimes they can they they have an element of playfulness and fun to them as well that lets you reconnect with that childhood spirit and it makes people feel a little Bit more that they can be who they want to be.
But then again, we do we as you're right, we do try to challenge ourselves with the types of events. And I know that serve is quite keen to think about what's going on in the world right now, it is hard to ignore what is happening in the world, and how can we create those types of events where you're doing it with sensitivity that people are challenged, perhaps in a way of thinking it's quite easy to be in an echo chamber with social media and, and where you live.
So sometimes trying to have things from different points of view, but able to facilitate it in a way where people don't feel attacked, and people feel like they're learning. It's quite a skill to do that, I think. But we, we also have our socials, you know, you can, you can do all of those types of things. But we'll always have an activity around that. Because just putting beers out, there are people that don't drink alcohol, you don't want to exclude anybody.
So having to think around that diversity of the types of people and to allocate it for them. We recently every year we do Kick Ass Women Festival, which we sell out, it's 120 people and it's a full day kind of celebration of all that it means to be a woman or non binary person. We'll have different people talking about their fields of work, but also what it means to you know, how we can do progression is it is not an anti man day men are invited to come along, we've had dads bring their daughters that are 14 and you know, accompany them.
The feeling on the day is is is unimaginable if you're so proud to have sort of created something like that. And most recently I was away on I've been on maternity for seven months. And most recently, Holly and Tory, the marketing manager and Events Manager created work reinvented which was a kind of update on our welcome to work event which we've done, which is all around the future of work and thinking around our purpose our people, our you know, our planet, what that means. We were talking around physical space, obviously COVID has thrown up so many different ideals around how and where you want to work. I think it's really interesting. The power is not as great resignation, maybe it's a great reevaluation. People are having all sorts of revaluations in their lives post COVID That where and how you work is so important.
We spend so much of our time at work so you better make it work for you not just sort of living paycheck to paycheck or Living for the Weekend. You know, like think about how you can align your work to your greater to the greater good. And then we'll kind of facilitating those conversations around that. So yeah.
Everything you just said so brilliant. I don't know what to circle back on. Because it's all just feels feels like gold. I love that the reevaluation. It's one of the things I'm very grateful for out of a really challenging time that we're all just assessing and kind of recalibrating who we are and how we want to spend this this short time we have here. Emily, Let's chat a little bit. So you mentioned working in a pub when you were younger, what was your entrance into marketing and then into co working? What's a little bit of your story?
I think it probably starts at middle school when they they took they I don't know how it happened. But essentially, there was this internet after school club that 10 of my year group of about 100 children got to go to this after school internet club. And that was back with dial up and I think I was like 11 years old. And my dad was very encouraging of this thing called the internet.
I remember, we had a desktop computer in our small little box room upstairs. And I made my first website which was a clipart picture of a lion I think it was 24 pixels Comic Sans Emilie's webpage and like this awful purple. And I uploaded it to the internet I wouldn't be surprised if it took you know a couple of hours to upload this very simple page. But I started I was just obsessed internet I'd be viewing sources copying pasting using all of those old school ex page new like live like all of those. And I was always on message boards and community boards for actually for pop punk bands in New Jersey mainly Drive Thru records bands, I was obsessed with them and I was I was like a moderator on the sidelines message board and I was always on AOL talking to Americans and got to go over to festivals in New Jersey when I was 17 and 18 My Skate and Surf festival.
But all of that was possible through the internet and community you know on message boards and and feeling like they're all my really good friends. So staying up till 4am So late talking to Americans online. So but then I started making websites for bands and artists, friends and creatives, when I was at school, after school in some holidays, you know, making money at 15 making websites and, and I think that entrepreneurial thing of, you know I can do this school is boring, I'm bored at school, I can be doing more of this stuff or I can be helping my friends and taking photos at gigs and doing all of that kind of stuff. So after university, I created Brighton creatives, which was a blog and a platform to help the creatives in Brighton and Hove.
And we would do websites for them branding projects, but we would also do much larger projects. Because creators don't usually have a lot of money. So you have to kind of do some other some other things to kind of pay the bills. And I did that for six, seven years before I started working at Platform nine. So a lot of the kind of blogging content creation, promotion came from the way that I had activated Brian creators and just a very similar thing, but for startups, freelancers, businesses. So that's kind of how it led me to where I am now.
We have a shared intersection that I didn't even know about before this conversation. I don't know if you know, I spent many, many years working in record stores. So I filed many CDs, cassettes, I feel like probably vinyl to have drive thru records. That's a fun, fun intersection. Emilie, I have to ask you about a marketing campaign you did at the train station A little while ago. Tell me about that. Because it was absolutely genius as people are questioning commuting, and the whole remote things exploding. Tell the Tell me about that.
So I'm going to give credit where credit's due. So that was Holly Sangria our marketing manager who, who came up with that brilliant campaign, I had just come back from maternity and she was like, right, we've got the stickers, you make the coffee kind of sleeve, got the T shirts and went up to the station. But the whole idea when when platform line first started. And we obviously we have the platform nine names for the night, the platform at Brighton station, there were a lot of train strikes that were happening as well. So people weren't able to get to work. And this is pre COVID people really staying in the city and knowing what coworking was. So we would have campaigns around, don't get the train to London or like, shouldn't say this, but they're called Southern round, we would call them southern fail, which is probably a bit cheeky, to get people to go into coworking.
But the way that Holly did this most brilliant, kind more new campaign where we actually got to talk to the commuters. We connected with small batch coffee who are there a coffee chain in Brighton and Hove. They have some coworking cafes, but they tried to kind of leave laptops out of it. So it didn't necessarily feel like a conflict of interest. What we were doing it it was on national coworking day. And I think you're right. A lot of people still don't necessarily know what coworking is, I think as a marketer, you will never be able to see your brand from I think you just see it. You're so in it aren't you as that you almost can't believe that people don't know what coworking is without us and but national co working day, there's a load of people going in and out of the train station, small batch have a coffee cart, right outside Brighton station.
So you know, we put the sleeves on the coffee and just offered people a sleeve where they could redeem it for a free coffee and a small batch in the city. And on there was a QR code that they could come in for and get a free day pass from platform nine. But you know, it's that brand awareness piece we got to talk face to face. So it's almost like that old school flyering we did have to get a flyering license from Brighton and Hove council to do it. You can't just do stuff like that. But to be able to talk to people direct around why their coworker why they're commuting where they work was interesting. And actually was chatting to this guy. And I said I'm from platform nine and he went, Oh, I know platform nine I know friends that have membership there. I work for a charity around the corner and I went oh great. Like what do you think about it? He's like, Oh, you're not just coworking, you're a community? And I was I was like, yes thank you like that was music to my ears because I'd had this period of time away from from platform nine and it was just this really great sense of, you know, people really get get what we do and it's not just desks and Wi Fi. We are a community. So credit to Holly for working out that partnership because it was it was a really fun morning. Obviously we got some people through the doors from a tube.
That is music to the years and I liked the old school like we do so much in digital marketing, so much of it is the algorithm and all the things. A lot of people have success with like a sandwich board or like a campaign like that, where you actually get to talk with people. I love it, and how would you advise people who are trying to create that vibe, that community trying to create a sense so that when someone references their space, they say, oh, yeah, you're a community? Also, how would you advise operators that are working to, to do that?
I think the first thing I would say is that, I don't think it necessarily comes overnight, you can't just call yourself a community and, and hope that it's going to happen. I do think it takes what what a few of the things that we've mentioned, the events, the rather than your, the team that work for you, rather than them, just filling up the coffee machine, like have them kind of integrate in with the members be talking to the members on a on a deeper level to find out what it is that they're there for, and help them to get more of that. So whether that is just a quiet place to work. So maybe don't don't bother them, you know, maybe they just want to come down and put their head so to know what they want, other than somebody might be new to a town.
So maybe they want to know about all of the clubs and things that they can connect with in the city to feel less lonely or introduce them to people, you know that that community, you can't, you can't just push down community, you can't shut it down people's throats, what you need to do is you need to interweave people create those connections, those introductions, you need to really help people to get what that what they're coming for. But I think also encouraging people to get involved because I think with community, you can't just take from a community, I think you need you only really get out of it, what you put into it.
And so I think ways in which members can feel like they're they're part of the space that they have a say, you know, we're so lucky as, as marketers in co working or even if you're not a marketer, and you're you're a sole owner of one is that your customers are right there in front of you. You're not selling a can of coke to like the masses, you are literally they are they're like What better market research? Or what more could you want, if you think around be your member centric, so the members are at the center of it all, make them happy, they will tell their friends, they will tell other people that will it's just a ricochet wave of that. So just ask them what they want. And just give it to them. Like it's not there, right there. We're so lucky.
Absolutely brilliant. I always think about that, like, we're not selling dishwasher widgets or something that your people are right there, you can just ask them, you're just, if you're not already talking with them, you're missing a huge opportunity.
Emily, before we jump off, is there anything you want to add anything that we've stepped over?
Let me just think I think maybe about just maybe the differentiators of coworking spaces now that you know, platform nine, open six years ago, there was obviously other coworking spaces, but certainly in Brighton in the market, as you know, we might have been the first of our kind, there were definitely coworking spaces in Brighton beforehand, that were kind of member owned, or slightly different kinds of setups. But, you know, in those six years, we've had a lot of new coworking entrants, and I don't think that's, that's gonna end. And I think that really knowing who your audience is, what you stand for, what your purpose is.
So, you know, if you can have a mission or a greater purpose, and you have values and take time to really think about what they are, then you can use that as your kind of your North Star, your guiding light in all of your marketing to make sure that you're talking to the types of people that you want in your space. I think, you know, some coworking spaces will really focus on one particular sector, they might just be freelancers, they might not have many co working, actually there might be more flex and have more offices, and they do co working depending on how they set it up. So I think thinking about who you want there, why you're doing it, and you know, writing it down and kind of living by those values and referring back to that mission and trying to communicate that as much as possible, will will attract the people that you want in the space and it will make a lot more of an enjoyable experience. If you're getting you know if you're doing that.
Absolutely. The differentiation piece is so important, especially now especially with this like insane growth trajectory for brands but also for members like if it's not clear who the space is for And I wander in there as a member, that kind of disjointed feeling or unclear vision values vibe, you can feel it and it doesn't feel like a good fit because it doesn't feel like it's for me like it's a space of belonging. That was so beautifully put.
In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, I chatted with Corrales Cachola about community, Web3 and more. If you leave this episode with more questions than answers, you're exactly where you're supposed to be.
This conversation was not intended to be a podcast episode—it was just going to be an introduction and get-to-know-you call between me and Corrales. But it turned into such an interesting chat that I decided to share it with you.
More about Corrales:
Corrales Cachola helps web3 founders discover their massive transformative purpose (MTP) to attract their ideal audiences and build community through marketing, content, and social impact.
He is a web3 strategist, web designer, and journalist-trained writer based in Portland, Oregon, and is the founder of Brand New Voices, empowering the new storytellers of web3.
Corrales also provides high-level marketing strategy for Community Banks and has worked with brands like the World Health Organization, Nike, Intel, Barret School of Banking, and Special Olympics.(Edited)
Learn more at brandnewvoices.xyz
Links + Props
🔗 catjohnson.co | Coworking Convo | The Lab
🎶 Music by Grip Grand
📺 Watch full episode on YouTube
🎥 Recorded on Riverside.fm
Transcript:
Welcome to Coworking Out Loud, where we explore the deeper side of coworking, content and community. I'm your host, Cat Johnson.
Hey friends. So what you're about to hear is an accidental podcast episode. I jumped on a zoom call with my new friend Corrales Cachola to talk about web3, what it means for community, if coworking should be paying attention to this and all the other things. And somewhere, an hour plus deep into our conversation, we realized that we should have been recording this and it turns out that Cory was.
So we edited it and here are the high points of our conversation. I think there's a lot to think about here in terms of the future of micro communities, micro commerce, some interesting things you can offer members. So here we go for.
I've been like lurking around the blockchain NFTs for a while. Just kind of watching it happen. And for like during the, um, bored ape yacht club kind of craze, I was like, uh, this doesn't feel like it. But then I, I know other people are like, this is the future. This is what we're doing. Like, I don't know what to think. So I'm super curious to hear like your work and more about you and all. Yeah, no, it's it's I think, you know, when I see your, see your stuff, I'm just like, these are the people that need to be in it right now.
Um, cuz it's so, cause that's, that's part of the big. Problem I've noticed is like a lot of the talented, like, especially community builders are not in the space because they, you know, they see people see kind of like the surface level of all this like weird stuff going on with a lot of those projects.
And, and it's hard to, I think it's been hard to, for. Community people that are deep into community to like, think that that's something worth investing in, you know, it, this is like one of the things I struggle with cuz I'm the eternal optimist and it feels like anything that's handed over to humans.
We're just gonna fuck it up. Like stand money. It's like people figure out how they can game it and play it. And it's like, Yeah. Like conceptually I'm like, yes. And I'm skeptical. Like, would we, will we ever pull off like a complete transformation of how we do things, you know, get from this like huge power imbalance?
I don't know. It's interesting. But the, the piece that is seems cool to me is like little micro communities. Like I'm a part of a bunch of different communities, you know? Yeah. All very meaningful and. um, yeah, like one of 'em I'm in recovery and our, one of the recovery things is we're self supporting, right?
Like, so we don't deal with a whole bunch of decision makers and a whole bunch of hierarchy and money and this and that. Like we just figure it out and then we're good. Yeah. That's the big, I think that's the thing that attracts me the most is the, the decent it's, you know, it's a decentralized movement.
That's a really big point that I don't think enough people quite understand, like how significant that is for the future of communities. You know, you talk about it in, I think in web two of these, like, and it's being done, it's not like, I mean, even Facebook groups are essentially decentralized. Right. You know, you can argue that and there's, so there, there that's already happening.
It's been happening, but. I, I think the, the, the big difference is that the things that power a crypto community are, is the crypto part. And this is the emergence of, you know, many of economics. So when you connect the community with the, with the, the token or the NFT, you now have essentially. Many economies or, or the, you have the possibility of them.
It's not like they're ha I mean, it's just, that's, that's the, that's what is happening. That's why so many people are getting into web three is because this is like a whole, like what I call like human economics. It's like a whole new understanding of how we apply economic models onto, you know, using art.
And in community, I think it's our own, it's our own value system, right? That, that's the powerful thing to me. That's really. Incredible, you know, to just, just to strive for it even to me is, is worth it. I think so, too. And it's interesting to see the evolution like years ago. Um, my primary gig was writing for shareable, which is a publication about the sharing economy.
So like yeah, early days where Airbnb was still considered sharing economy and stuff. Then also, so like big projects like that, um, and like tool libraries, and just a lot of, a lot of things like that, but, um, on a smaller level, like community dollars or downtown dollars. Yeah. Or something where we decide the value, we decide.
How they're exchanged and how you can use 'em and then off we go, or like time banks. It's another similar thing like you and I exchange an hour for an hour. Yeah. Um, so it's like, this just feels like. Moving into a system that's easier to, um, kind of track and maintain. It seems like once it's up and running, then you have this, this built in thing and yeah.
Yeah. And the, the other big activation is I, and I think we're not seeing it yet because the, the web three is just so new and, and it's, and it, frankly, it's mostly, that's why you see so much of the, I think a lot of. You know, kind of toxicity, I guess you could say right away is because most of it is American based brand.
It's a lot of old legacy. What I call legacy brands yeah. That are coming in and there. And that's just, I think that that's just inevitable. It's, it's the way things work, but. Eventually because, because of the nature of crypto it's borderless. So if you look at it that way, you know, the activations of globally, when you can connect, you know, a community that you're building in the us, I guess you could say, but I mean, sure.
It's global. I mean, you could say like everyone can come in, but there's a big difference when it's a NA like a community and. You know, Nigeria that let's say you share this vision. And so in the old way, you know, you would have to like, you know, form partnerships and, and there's a longer lead up to like, there's a lot of like barriers.
And then there's a money problem with in, in terms of like currencies going back and forth. Mm-hmm to do things now. That can be done, but you have to go through a lot of gatekeepers, like even PayPal or these things can be done, but they're not they're gatekeeper kind of currencies that, or, or financial systems that don't allow you to create a, a, a fluid economy between the two and crypto mm-hmm is just fluidly going back and forth.
Right? There's no friction points. There's no, everyone, you. It in and, and, and the other powerful thing is like, in like places like Africa, you don't need a bank account. So there's a lot of unbanked. Um, people that can literally, you can start building communities and financializing them immediately. So this is like, that kind of blows my mind because I I'm in kind of bank.
The, the other stuff that I do is bank marketing, uh, community bank marketing, and, you know, financial inclusion has always been like something I've always dreamed of that, you know, but it's not, it's just really hard to connect the dots with. Especially like American banks to, they don't typically even care about true financial inclusion anyway.
Right. Um, so crypto is sort of like this, I see it as like a, a bridge to do it and in a way to actually force the banks to do better, because if they don't crypto can unlock global. Mayhem on the banks and it's sort of a mm-hmm , that's sort of the game you have to play, you know, it's, it's a, it's, it's a forced, you know, like you better play ball or, you know, it's, it's fine if you don't want to take part, but we're, we've got the more, this movement grows the bigger, I mean, the activations in Nigeria alone, this is like, this is gonna be the third largest country in the world in 30 years.
And they have one of the highest crypto. Like awareness of anywhere in the world. Wow. So that's just, that's just in Nigeria. That's not even the rest of Africa. Yeah. Right. And then you've got Latin America. You've got, you know, India, the, the, the people that are not even counted in Tam and all this stuff, we don't even know.
Like we they're, we have no idea how big these markets are, are even because they're not banked. . So, like, they're not, they're not in market. I feel like so much of it's conceptual to me. It's like, what does it look like on a day to day? So like people have crypto in. Nigeria. And so like, if you and I were exchanging services or something, we would just do it that way.
Is that the thing just for like day to day transactions, it's not so much like an investment vehicle, which is what it feels like to me. And like that crazy. Remember like, Six months or a year ago where I was just like, everyone was going crazy and NFTs people were like, yeah, just making a circle on a page and selling it for $200,000.
Yeah. I'm like, yeah. What, like what's going on? But like on a day to day level, what, what is that? Yeah, those can be totally done. I mean, there was a, a community manager that I hired in, in Nigeria for, you know, just a short time, just a trial thing. And it was just, she just gave me her, her, um, Ethereum address, which is just this thing.
And you can transfer that publicly. It doesn't, it's not like it, it's not like a thing that's you have to secure. Yeah. And unless someone wants to send her money. Um, so she just sends that to me on, you know, text and then like, she's got it in three seconds, you know, like, no, like there's no like anything in between.
You know, the danger of course, is that you it's people that it is people to people, so you can get, right. Like someone could walk up, like there's no intermediary. No. Yeah. There's no, there's no Tru there's no like what we call trusted, uh, something to mediate, anything. But, you know, the deep, I think the deeper you get into the philosophy and, and theory behind how the movement started, it's like, that's kind of a sham.
It it's just a big story that we've all been told, like, right. There's these trusted sources that help mediate. I mean, yeah. Good luck with, I mean, banks have always taken that role. Like they are. You know, the trusted source, but I mean, look at the pro the problems with everything from racism to, I mean, you name it like totally.
How can that be a trusted source of like, you're, you're putting a lot of trust in systems that have never really cared about a lot of people trust. They care about. Shareholder trust, maybe , you know? Yeah. It's like we treat it, we treat banks like part of the infrastructure, but they're a business. Like I was talking to a banking marketer not long ago.
He came to do a little presentation and was talking about, they introduced a new card and say, anyway, the, the short story was if people. Don't go into debt. They don't get a return on the investment, so it's not worth it to them to do, uh, something that is more of like a service kind of product, because there's no or little return.
So they're just like, we're not gonna do that. It's a business, even though it's like, yeah. Things like part of the infrastructure. And then the other problem is, is that the banks are also, they run by borders according to borders. So mm-hmm, , this is not fair on a, just an equality level, you know, inclusion level, because like an American bank they're bound by all kinds of F D I C rules and regulations.
So they can't even do, even if they wanted to go and help out across borders, they can. They can't do it. And so now, now they're hampered by the, a lot of the legal things, which are totally ridiculous at this point. I mean, they're so antiquated and they're built for, I mean, frankly, you know, the way I look at it, it's like it was built for a white guy's world.
mm-hmm and, and in an American one at that. So. People that are in crypto that are deep in it. They, they already know there's no way this system is gonna maintain it as diversity and, and borders become more fluid. They're already becoming more fluid with the internet, like paying people from across the borders, like the it's already doing already happening.
The front runners are like, yeah, it's there. It's not, it's not a sustainable model. It's, it's sort of just, I think we're at a point where we're still. I guess what you'd call, um, who's this community builder. Her name is Priya. Oh, Priya Parker, Priya Parker. Yeah. And she said she, she has this great. Um, you probably know it like from her book.
And she says something about the like outdated rituals that we, she uses like marriage for a really interesting example that like marriage in India that is, and she's, you know, part in Indian. So a lot of the ritualization around marriage, even though it's outdated, still applies and it drives it. It drives a.
A lot of the values that Indians kind of like still hold onto, but they're not valid anymore. So it's like these old ritualization that they actually get the, the young people don't even care about them. Right. And, and so it's, it's kind of like that where I feel like a lot of this stuff is just ritualizing.
Because people don't want to upset the apple card. Yeah. I think that's right. It's just, it's just the way it is. And I, I don't, I don't, I know there's like not everyone is gonna be so like, risk taking like that, but I, I just think like, in terms, when you start looking at diversity and like people that I am traveling with in the web three space now that are in diversity, there's an urgency to this stuff.
You know, you, the more you ask permission from, from people. Typically shut you out anyway. What, what good is this gonna do you, um, you know, so they're, they're starting to, I think they're starting to understand, like they have to really take control of that narrative and be shape it, how they want. I mean, it feels like that's what this whole thing is like, it's like, what is it?
It's like, whatever we make it, it could be a disaster. It could be amazing if you just look at it from the outside. You're never gonna find the talent that you want because you're the talent come on in and building, oh my God. Such a great quote. Gotta write that.
Love it. You know, I guess I would say like, when I look at your stuff, I'm just like the, this is where the talent is. This is the talent that's missing and it's, it's the, it's the, you know, it's the reason I know it's the reason why. There's so many bad mediocre too, simply INAP people that are, that are in the space because they, because the, the first ones I get in are the high, the really technologists people.
And they are, they're like, they're speaking at some other level, like, you know, on technology. Yeah. But it's like, it's not even relatable. Like some of the stuff is just like, what are you talking about? What that doesn't even. Resonate with anyone except your, your buddies, you know, over beers. It it's so esoteric.
It, it doesn't even like it. And why does that make, why is that important even like what blockchain are we using? I mean, these are important things like structurally and planning. But that's not a roadmap. For instance, they all, a lot of the people at NFTs think a roadmap is this thing. You, you put out all of your plans that may or may not happen.
And, and it's very structured like in Q2 of 2024, right. We're going to have an event. And this is supposed to help investors what they call them. Right. Um, help them understand that you're a you're in the game. You're good. And it's just like, oh, like, like that's an internal roadmap, but an external one is like a storytelling thing.
It's like marketing. Yes. You need to bring people into the story, you know, the Steve jobs way or the old advertisers that would just like, kind of sell a dream because. You know, , you've gotta sell that big dream before you get them on board with all these like crazy kind of like plans that you've got going on.
That's just what I was thinking that the storytelling around all of this is horrendous. There's a huge, huge divide between yeah. People in the space and the mainstream. Yeah, no one has a clue what you're talking about. And it's like, there's so many different things like web three crypto coins NFTs. What is like the, no, one's clear what it is.
And I think Nigeria is an interesting example because there was a need. This solve. They're like, cool. We're down. We're doing this. Yeah. So now there's like that much more understanding of it, but until there's, uh, mainstream need or, uh, it, it hits that, you know, the threshold where I don't know, something needs to shift, cuz it's confusing and easy to disregard right now.
Yeah. And I mean, I mean, in my opinion, it won't be easy to disregard. It'll be harder and harder as cause there's so many, there's so many, like, I guess you'd call 'em like tremors or, you know, signs and signals that are coming from all over the place. Now that point to that old world is, is falling down of this old economic model, which is especially like companies.
I think COVID was a big driver too, to, I don't think it's a mistake that COVID comes and Bitcoin just skyrockets during that time. Like absolutely unbelievable NFTs, all that stuff. I don't think that was a mistake. I think it was a very clear indication that COVID had basically cut the entire global supply chain.
Yeah. Like, like, you know, zoom became the supply chain and information supply chain. That's what happened over almost overnight. Yeah. But it wasn't, it wasn't really overnight. It was just that we have the, we all have the tools now to do it. They were there ready, and it was already falling, but COVID just advanced it by who knows how many years, maybe decades.
And I think that's, that's a big, a, a really big like black Swan. I, I think just it, it was an, it, it created this massive inflow to like crypto finally coming to light that we can't really rely on, you know? And then the global financial meltdown, you know, in the 2008, cuz that's what led to the Bitcoin white paper being released.
Oh, interesting. Yeah, that came from the, literally the ashes of that, of, of that. Wow. You know, it came like it was already being conceptualized. And then in two, I think early 2009, the Bitcoin white paper just appears somewhere and just boom. And all of a sudden it's like catches fire in the early, you know, community just was just all over it as a, you know, alternative form of currency.
You know, getting away from, you know, centralized finance and all this stuff. Yeah. I always say like, if you want to talk about community, There's nothing more clear as to how powerful community was that basically built the entire narrative of Bitcoin that early community was, they were, you know, almost to the point of, you know, some of them were like kind of toxic, like they're so maxed out on yeah.
Bitcoin is going to smash the systems and all. So pretty powerful stuff, but it, but it really was community and storytelling that cause no one could, who could wrap their head around it at that point. Like, what are you even saying? Like you're talking, you know, wow. Coming back to community and storytelling.
That's why I. I like beat the drum of community, just unceasingly because like 10 years ago, 12 years ago, co-working was like this movement of people where I would like flip up a folding table someplace that had wifi and work together. Yeah. And then like, More and more and more adoption. And now it's just like this massive global industry with huge money, huge players, huge like fabulous spaces with chandeliers.
And, um, yeah, which I, to be honest, I, I've never been part of the polarity of like, it's either community or. This thing is like the way I see it. Like it's giving, it's facilitating this whole flexible future of work, which I'm like, I'm here for it. But yeah. Um, the thing I'm concerned about is like so many spaces are opening.
It's like doubling like a year or so ago. The estimate was there 20,000 spaces in the world. And now I just heard the estimate is 40,000. So it's like, oh my God, we just doubled in like, oh, you know, a short time. So my concern is that spaces are opening without an understanding of like, It's not office rental.
Like for me, it's like, it's the, it's the deeper thing. It's the something more, it's the getting the humans together. It's the collaborative thing. It's yeah. And some spaces are hyper focused on that. Some of them are just kinda like, oh, we're just gonna do happy hours, but I think people are getting it.
And my it's not just like touchy, feely. The the way I see it from a member perspective, it's like going into an unactivated space going into like an office rental, like the executive suites of old is like a total snooze Fest. Right, right. There's nothing worse than sitting by yourself, working alone in a mm-hmm like sterile space.
So, um, It's like a, a cry to people like you gotta do this or you're not gonna make it. Like, this is what people want. Everything has changed. Everything has changed. People wanna know what you're about. They wanna know what your community is. Like, it's not gonna be enough just to split up office space.
It's just not right. Yeah. I have a friend in LA and he's, um, he's also in, you know, web three and crypto stuff and he's a, he kind of acts as. CMO fractionalized CMO to a lot of these new emerging web three companies. And one of his clients is a, um, they're a, a community in LA that's sort of like a creator.
They're like a mixture of like a creator incubator. And, and an Airbnb. So like almost like a, a youth host mall. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Like code living kinda thing. Cool.
He's trying connect a web three solution to it. So that have like, well, first of all, like web three education. So they access more of a, a pathway for them to actually get jobs in web three. And this, all this. Economy of web three. So they would, they come to these kind of creator, youth host places, and then they, they kind of like set up shop there and for like, you know, as long as they want, I thought it was really interesting.
And I don't know if you're like, what is your interest in the, um, like, are those kind of your future models of like what that stuff is? Cuz I feel like it's. It's definitely more lifestyle. There's a certain philosophy to it more than just like, if I just go and rent space at WeWork or something, you know, I actually think about this a lot.
Cuz when I was writing at shareable, I wrote a ton about co-housing and co-living and things like that. I definitely feel like it's the future. Even to be able to travel. Like, I would love to go to London and not just pay for a hotel or an Airbnb for a month, you know, like a longer stay. Yeah. If I could plop into a already existing community that had a space and a place for me to.
To stay. Yeah. Um, I definitely think that's the future. I have some concerns that it's super, it's like hyper youth oriented right now. Yeah. Like the digital Noma. I'd love to see it expand a little bit. Like for me, I'd love to be part of a community, but I also want a space for me and my partner to go chill out and not just be like dorm style.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I will get that. Cause people don't. Yeah, I think we'll get there. Yeah. It, it, it, it seemed to me like something definitely like targeted for really young folks, but then I thought. You know, I mean, in decentralization, in my view anyway, like that's how it should be. You should have these very ultra niche places and the more of those you design and then hopefully connect together somehow.
Um, the ones that have common vision, then I think that's, that's the, that's the goal, you know, for, in my view of like interconnected communities or something like that. Yeah. Same. And then, um, the more clear. Spaces, whether a co-living kind of thing or a co-working space, the more clear they are about who they are and sharing that it lets people select which one is right for them, because a space might be amazing for you.
It might be not the right fit for me and vice versa, but it's like having that choice and like, If I'm going for a writing retreat, I might want one particular kind of space. Yeah. If I'm going to meet with 10 friends, we want something different. But just like, I just feel like it's all about flexibility, freedom, connection, being able to drop into things instead of, um, Like going to a new area and just kind of plopping down by yourself.
And sometimes that's fun to just wander around, but it's really cool to drop into a coworking scene and have events and programming and people who are open to conversations. What do you think happened with like the WeWork model that I think, you know, there was a lot of stuff that I was impressed with when I was with them.
Like they would have. They had a rent. They were trying out this rental thing in New York city where you would, you, if you were a member, you could rent out this really cool. Um, apartment for your family. And, you know, I thought I was like, damn, that that's really cool. And then, but then it, it, you know, all that stuff with their CEO went down and suddenly all that, all of the, those things, and then COVID came.
Um, so yeah. Is that, was that. Just a bad timing on their part or just the CEO was just bad, but their ideas were good or like a mixture. I mean, I, I don't know enough in I'll I'll give you the perspective from like being a coworking, insider. I don't know, like inside WeWork, like I don't. I didn't follow it closely enough to know like all the moving parts.
But, um, the thing that was frustrating initially is coworking had already existed for years. And then WeWork came about, and they're like, Hey, here's this cool thing called co-working. And everyone's like, what the hell? Like we're already doing this. Yeah. And then the thing where they really, um, did not become part of the co-working community is they would do this predatory marketing where they'd like park trucks outside of existing co-working spaces.
Oh, wow. Some of them just like a solo owner operator and they'd go yeah. Park out front and be like, we'll give you three months free. Or they did just these unscalable offers. Yeah. Right. These yeah. Are unsustainable. Um, so then it became like this total tension about, oh, we were somebody called it the VOR of, you know, like
Yeah. And, uh, yeah. Then I think now watching that whole crazy arc, the, the net, I think it's a net positive. They brought so much awareness to what coworking is and got people to think outside of, um, a kind of existing, real estate models. Um, opened it up for entrepreneurs, startups, a friend said the other day, she's like, you know, it, it's rare to even find a coworking space with a keg and a right pool table or whatever anymore.
It's like, that was like this first on the scene, it brought a ton of attention. They sucked up all the press attention in the room for. I don't know, six years or something. Yeah. And then, um, now they're just kind of part of this ecosystem. There are a lot of big brands. There are a lot of big funded companies and there are way more.
I think the split, the we've actually been talking about this recently that within coworking it's somewhere between 60 to 85% are independent spaces. So like the big brands, like industrious, WeWork, you know, they take up a lot of the oxygen, but, um, far more are the independent spaces. Yeah. Which I wanna make sure those guys are all good, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. I know. I mean, haven't been in one sense when co I canceled my contract with WeWork, but I know. Here in I'm in Portland, Oregon. And there were so many cool models that were coming in, um, like, like really deep artists, um, spaces that were the really cool artists would just band. They, they just had these great spaces and these like areas of town that were like, you know, sought after, but not, they, they weren't expensive, but they were, they weren't in the best areas, but they were clearly like building up a lot of cred in those areas.
Um, to be desirable for the artist communities. And, and it was definitely like co-working was that thing that was doing it, but I, I don't know what, I don't know what's going on, like around town now, since I just, that COVID just changed so many things in, in town. It just like the WeWork that I was not just completely left.
They, they abandoned ship and it was a really cool building that they had. And so it's a, you know, it's a shame that they pulled out. Um, but that's, that's just the way it goes. I guess. I know it was a crazy time, I think though it like recalibrated us as humans. Yeah. And like you were talking about it accelerated, um, web three.
And all the blockchain stuff, it did the same thing for coworking because the remote model, suddenly this thing that was like, yeah, some companies are like tinkering around with remote. All of a sudden is like, and we're all remote. And, um, you know, now the conversation is, are people who's forcing people back.
Who's going fully remote. Who's doing two days. Like it's just endless about, you know, who's doing it well, who's not doing it. Well, we're just in this like transformational. Yeah time, but coworkings positioned really, really nicely that, um, people who had to work for home for a couple of years and are just over it, or, you know, yeah.
Companies have given up their offices because no one could go in, so they just gave them up. And now they're like, oh, we can go into this place with a short lease and flexible terms. And like coworking came out of this in a really good place. Yeah. I, I liked, there was one thing that I, I, the local one that I was part of.
You know, I think it was mostly, it just goes to show the power of like one person in the organization that, that was moving the all kinds of stuff that you didn't know that was because they, you know, they were independent. A lot of 'em were independent. So they, you know, the one that I was at, they didn't do this stuff over at, you know, the one down, you know, a couple blocks away.
But she, this, this one kind of woman at the, at that she was like a, I know she must have been some sort of manager there, but she was doing cool stuff like partnering with she part, they partnered, they did a partnership with the city and they brought in this, like, it was like the refugee refugee job placement thing that the city was doing.
And then, so they brought in all these. Refugees to train them. They, I don't think they train 'em. I think the city, the city were trained them or vetting them. And then they, WeWork brought 'em into work as, you know, doing staffing and stuff like that. Like. And it was, and then they would, um, it was kind of cool.
Like they would put their story on like the elevators, like they would have their names and their picture and their backstory of like what country they were from and love it. And, and it was cool. Like you would get to know people and like, I ended up talking to a number of them just because I saw, oh, they're, you know, They're putting their story, just a little snippet.
So then I knew what to talk to them about when I'm at, you know, getting my drink and then we strike up a conversation and like, it was, it was, it was pretty powerful. Like it was just because I think they just were good at the storytelling part of and welcoming people to go. You can, you know, you, we want you to interact with people.
That's the point of this thing. It's like, there's. I talk and think about this all the time. There's this like invisible wall where people are desperate for connection, but we have like this buffer and it's, if you do the tiniest thing, like putting a blurb about someone in the elevator. Yeah. Suddenly it like vanishes that and you're like, oh, that's so, and so there's like some context.
There's some, it's like an invitation, like, um, It just sets a tone, right? Like we, you're not here alone. yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's the most essential thing. Like you're not, not here. Yeah. A doom vacuum of isolation, like we're here together. Yeah. I think that's, that's the whole, you know, it's the key. I, I think it happened.
You know, with me, it happened during the pandemic, just like a lot of people. Like I went into clubhouse, like when the clubhouse came out, that that was my community. Like that became me too. I, I, I found yeah. Said I, yeah, some, some of the people I met, like, even though we, some, most of my don't talk to today, but I I'll never forget them.
And I think that's a powerful, it's not just a fluke or some, it was some app that just popped up. It just depends on how you treat it. Like to me, I began to like connect with people on deeper levels and, um, then I started running rooms and I would, I would tell people, you know, let's just for a second, like reframe and go we're we're not like looking at the phone in our app, we're inside of it together.
Totally. And that just. Totally, you know, that sort of like metaphor is like, Hm. They, they instantly would be. The conversation changed. Everything changed when you just said this one little thing and didn't, it, it felt like that like the best rooms, it really felt like that I leaned hard on like social audio.
Sometimes I would put stuff on, you know, it's like 10 o'clock at night, just like listening to whatever, not even, you know, just, just being part of something. There was one, um, some collective that would do, um, He was like storytelling, but like each person would take it a little bit further. So they were creating something.
Oh, that's great. That's he gave me chills right now. Like, it was just like awesome. We're we're here. We're okay. Like we're, we're still creating and stuff. And remember like D nice was standing. I think he might have even, was he in New York or something, but like, he'd get on Instagram live every day and play music for hours.
I'm like, oh, I forget. It's time. Those, those are wild. I. Honestly, that was a, I don't think I'll ever see that again. I mean, it was just, so there were so many things in the, especially if you were early, when that you and I thought, oh, you kind of take it for granted, like, oh, you're gonna see this again. But I, I don't think I'll ever see that level of accessibility was just crazy, like crazy, you know?
You go into rooms and there's like all these like rappers and stuff, and they're, they're all like, just joking around and, you know, you, you end up talking to some of them and, or like, I, I talked to the guy, the author of, um, what was it? Um, tiny habits. Yeah. And he was like blown my mind with, he was like, you know, I'm gonna use a clubhouse for teaching a class.
Um, moderation move moderation. But the thing that I've noticed about clubhouse is like you you're learning and it's like a learner guide model at the same time at scale. Mm. And I was like, wow. Yeah, that's true. And, and so he, he taught a power and like bringing a kind of private group into a room, a structured thing.
And then. Learning how to like moderate, but you're getting feedback loops live from the audience, which is pretty wild. When you think about it, wild, you know, it's like talking to customers, but like all of them at the same, and then they're providing input and you're, you're kind of like teaching, like they're learning from you, but then learning back, like it's going, it it's like co.
That's pretty wild. I was like, whoa, like that's pretty, that's pretty crazy stuff. It was. So, uh, I also appreciated being able to drop into communities that I don't really have access to just like cultural divides. Yeah. Yeah. I hop in and just listen and be like, oh my God, that's such a good point. I never thought about that.
Or, you know, just like a little peek in just like quietly sit like a little mouse in the corner listening. And, and I think it's like you said that the whole. There's a, these invisible borders that we kind of tell, kind of buy into these stories that you can't go into this room or what, I mean, it's an app that like, clearly everyone can go anywhere.
Yeah. But I noticed like, I don't, you know, no one's going into, I would go into the new Nigerian rooms. Yeah. Like, I, I, I, I just joined the club and I was like, You know, what if they like, don't accept me, but I was like, who? I mean, who cares? Who cares? I was sitting on new couch, a what gonna, and then I found like I would go into those rooms and they were just, I would learn so much, like I would, I went into this one and it was, um, the new, they were new Nigerians and they were talking about crypto.
So I was interested to hear what, you know, what they had to say. Yeah. And, and they, um, The, the moderators were not, didn't have a very good handle on the, the subject matter. So the room started getting like kind of rowdy. Mm. And then I started talking and then they kind of were. One guy says, oh, you, you kind of, I think, you know what you're talking about?
You wanna be a moderator so I like ended up monitoring this new Nigerian crypto. It was just, I was like, this is so crazy. Like where would this ever happen? And I was talking to literally like all these Nigerians and they were. Telling me all kinds of like, I mean, it was like a researcher's paradise.
Like, oh my God, like you're getting firsthand, like pain points and all this stuff, just sitting there talking, you know, so easy to access . Yeah. And you could just bounce out so easily. Like, you know, we started seeing people who. They'd get invited onto the stage and then be like, okay, here's my pitch.
Here's who I am. This is all about me. You could just, you could just bounce or, you know, like some norms, some communities had really strict norms, others. It was like, uh, horrendous free for all like, oh, worst. Yeah. All the humanists. Um, Corey, can I ask you a question, cuz I'm curious with the web three stuff.
So there are two, like, like I said, I'm a part of a bunch of things, but two communities that I lead. So one of 'em is a smallish membership group that I run for. Co-working space operators called the lab. It's a marketing club. The other one is, uh, Monthly virtual event series for operators that one's bigger.
We've had like 5,000 operators show up over the last few years. I'm curious. I'm like, should I push into web three and do something I'm not so much interested in the crypto aspect? Like the payment thing I kind of have figured out, um, But I'm curious, like, is there something we could do to like introduce people to it?
Like the thing that I thought, like, is it a coin? Is it a yeah, like get this badge, like I, like, what are the possibilities, cuz I, I don't wanna be, um, left in the dark, but I'm also not like til tilt boogie right now. Yeah. I know. That's sort of what I'm I I'm gonna be teaching. Course called human marketing.
And it, and a lot of it is, was built, was designed because of like this problem that people, even in crypto, they don't, it it's really difficult to know, like, should I do, you know, a token or, you know, all this stuff. And, and I mean, really it's more, to me it's more about having mental models and under like thinking, because I think you first have to get the community to think in terms.
Of web three and that means understanding their story and what's important to them and kind of aligning it with your goals of, you know, your organizational goals and all that. Yeah. And just the K I think the, the best things are like KPI, like reward things that are like, you know, it's easy to do NFTs.
Yeah. I would, I would actually just kind of concentrate on that. The NFTs can be almost like literally anything. You don't have to have some like elaborate artwork or whatever. Like you can just start there as a, as a test and just say like, we're kind of testing this out or whatever. However you wanna say it and use that as a reward system.
And that's sort of like an access, like you could say, like, if you have like this type of N F. You'll be at this tier of our, you know, V I P level. Like if, if you're into the, I don't know, like, I don't know how that, how you tructure, I'm open to it for sure. Yeah. Oh, Corey, I love this. Are you by chance recording?
I'm like, why is this not a podcast? Thanks for listening to coworking out loud. I hope this episode gave you some things to think about, and if you have more questions than answers, that is probably a good thing. And you're right. You need to be, we're still all figuring this out in a big way. If you haven't already head over to Kat johnson.co to find out all about the next coworking combo membership in our lab marketing club, reap blog posts about coworking content community, and I'll see you next time.
In this episode of Coworking Out Loud, Cat Johnson talks with Anne Kirby from The Candy Factory coworking space in Lancaster, PA about marketing a coworking space, being intentional about building community in your workspace, challenges of remote workers who would rather not be working remotely and more.
Connect with The Candy Factory: @coworking on Instagram Connect with Anne Kirby: @annekirby on Instagram
🔗 catjohnson.co | Coworking Convo | The Lab
🎶 Music by Grip Grand
📺 Watch full episode on YouTube
🎥 Recorded on Riverside.fm
Transcription:
Welcome Anne. It's great to have you here. Oh, Cat. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. You're my first guest in three years. So exciting. I'm so glad you're bringing it back. I am glad too, it feels good. I love this platform and I feel like there's some space within the ecosystem of podcasts to get deeper into coworking content and community.
So to kick things off, let's just give people a little context who may not already know you. Will you just give the quick version of your coworking story and how you came into all of this? Sure. I founded the candy factory back in 2010 after running a networking group called the Creative House of Lancaster for three years.
So I built a community for three years before opening up a physical space. I identified while I was running that group, that there was this gap. Like, so many of us were working from home or out of cafes and we were looking for community. And so I started diving into the coworking model and philosophy, and I loved everything about it.
So bringing people together, collaboration, sustainability, accessibility, all of those things, openness just spoke to me. Lancaster, Pennsylvania, which is where we're located, needs this. So in 2010 I found a location and I already had 15 members ready to go. So we've been sustainable actually since day one.
And I love everything about it. And over the last 12 years, it's just been magical. So this is right up my alley, Cat, this conversation. I love it.
And was your first space the space that you're in now? No, we moved into an old candy factory. That's why we're called the Candy Factory and we had about 5,000 square feet. But we grew into that pretty quickly and within a couple years we realized that we needed to expand into a larger facility. We have the best location. We are literally across the street from our old location. We moved into the new one in 2014 and it was just literally carrying stuff across the street, which was great.
What's so ideal about our current location is we've been able to expand in it. There was a lot of available space. So over the years, we've been able to just kind of take more space as we've needed to. So now we have about 25,000 square feet in the current location that we've been in since 2014.
From what I've seen from the space—I haven't seen it in person—but it's so much more than coworking. It's like a music venue, gathering place, all the things. Was that your vision from the beginning or did this kind of like, as you took on more space, you're like we could have actually shows and lectures and things up here? How did that all come about?
Well, because we were born out of the Creative House of Lancaster, which was the group I had started, our mission for that group was to give back to the community, to engage, to have art and alternative spaces and music and volunteers, that kind of mission. And so because our coworking space was built from that community of art and culture.
You know, just bringing the broader community together has just kind of followed through and has been part of our mission. So since the very beginning. Yeah, we are a gathering space, a venue, a coworking space, a social club. I mean, you name it. We do so much here. We give our members so many opportunities to connect, but we also give a lot of opportunities to the external community in Lancaster to be able to come in and actually participate as well.
And that's what makes us a community hub and we call it impact coworking, where you're making a bigger impact. It's not just internal and that's really part of our mission.
This is something I think about and talk about a lot: that if space operators can position themselves and get into service, not just for the members, as a business owner, as a coworking space operator, but as the place to go for that people turn to for, programming, ideas, inspiration, connection around entrepreneurship and freelancing and arts and culture, and positioning, becoming that community hub, that impact hub is just brilliant.
I'd love to hear how that kind of intersects with running your business. Like when you have people there for a music gathering, do you take them on tours or is it more just kind of welcome, like teaching people about the space, but what's your approach, how do you handle that?
Anytime we host an event, we always make sure we have an MC who's also kind of plugging the Candy Factory and talking about all the wonderful things that we have going on here and the resources available. And we always provide tours afterwards. So it's one of those things, like if you wanna see the whole space, let us know.
And there's always a team member available to be able to showcase the space if they wanna take a look or we always have print collateral everywhere too. So we’re always plugging the resources that we have and the connections that are made and just really highlighting the community, which is what makes any of our spaces special.
At the core is coworking. A lot of our events are member run, so we do wine tastings that are sponsored and run by a member. And for our music events, we always try to showcase the musicians in-house first. So we're always able to say, Hey, this is also a member that we're showcasing and highlighting this evening. So it's bringing it all together. And it works really well. It feels like a whole ecosystem.
And then I see you roll up that big garage door and let in all the fresh air, it just seems like an amazing space. Anne, so you started with this group of people who already knew each other and were bought in on at least the idea that we can collaborate and things and, and it's better for everybody.
So you've been doing this for 10 years now. I mean, 12, 12 years. You're one of the, like the coworking pioneers and it's changed a lot, but how do you educate people? And maybe it's just that the community, like once the norms are in place, it's so much easier to, to have that vibe continue.
But when you invite people in, like, this is so much more than just a workspace, like we want you to do programming. We want you to get involved. If you're in a band, come play upstairs. Collaborate connect, like all the richness of coworking that just goes so far beyond boring, old office rental.
Our onboarding is really important for all of our members, right? So we make sure we sit down and we go through all the different resources. So it's a multi-step process. And, you know, just even learning, just taking the time to listen and learn what our members' needs are. Their passions are what they're excited about lets us really get them plugged in. Also, and helps us have the ability to understand what they wanna share with the community so we can give them platforms. And so that is just such an essential part of the process is that onboarding process to really educate people on this is community first.
People who come to us are craving friendships and relationships and networking. They're not necessarily looking for space—they're looking for something else and we want to make sure that they can tap that. So we really educate them on the different things in-house that they can participate in. And then we encourage them. So we see them in the space and we're always connecting.
And we're always encouraging them to participate in some capacity that they're comfortable in. Also understanding that, you know, finding out information about a member before they even start. So in our application form, we dive a little deeper. We really try to understand what their interests are.
If they're extroverted or introverted is really helpful, because that type member acts differently in the space and has different needs. And we need to make sure that they're getting connected in a way that they're comfortable with. So application, process, onboarding process, and then just interaction throughout the space is so important for just making a member feel like they're part of the community and that they can get plugged in.
Do you have people come through that are just not going to be a good fit for the space? And if and when that happens, how do you handle it?
Usually you can tell pretty quickly on a tour, if someone is gonna be a good fit or not. Sometimes we suggest other locations—every coworking space has its own vibe.
We don't look at other coworking spaces in our community as competitors. They are another option. So we refer a lot to some of the spaces that maybe have more private offices. We only have 14 private offices. We're mostly open concept with conference rooms and phone booths. And so we're referring all the time to those other places.
If someone is like, I need quiet all the time, I'm gonna be on calls all day, they may just not be the best fit for our vibe. So referring is great because then you're saying, Hey, I understand that your needs are different than what we can provide, and I'm going to actually refer you to the best resource.
And people really do appreciate that. We also find that people who aren't a great fit who do want to try to participate filter out in about three months. Like they're not, they're not connecting. No matter what we do, they're not interested in actually engaging. So, um, you're gonna have that. And we do an exit interview or survey depending on their comfort level. And then we hopefully can maybe even suggest other places to them.
What do you do if someone keeps their membership, but they're not really engaging. You feel like they're not tapping in? Not, not that everyone has the same needs from a space, but you just feel like, oh, there's something missing here. They're kind of phoning it in.
Yeah, so I will actually reach out if someone's been kind of quiet for a while and try to invite them to an activity or event. I also do lunches with members every Thursday. So I'll invite them to my member lunches. If you implement anything, this is so great once a week.
On a Thursday, I take four to five members out to lunch. It's my treat. And it's a way for them to get to know each other as well as me to find out more about them so I can get them better connected. It's been one of the best things I've implemented and people make friendships like right away and someone's gonna be what we call sticky.
If they can connect with at least one other person within the space, they can become friends. And so, you know, they stay long, they retain, you can retain them longer. So we do try to reach out and engage.
Sometimes people just fall off and there's no way to bring them back into the fold. But you know, we do our best to just tap their shoulder. If you can, by just sending them a message, an email. Whatever, whatever channel you possibly can. Email marketing is really important and it's something that we let drop over the pandemic. We were so focused on Slack and other virtual tools that we were using that we kind of let the email newsletter, um, just die.
We are actually bringing that back. It's going out today for September. And that I think is a good way to keep those who maybe aren't paying attention to our slack channel or the other channels just kind of plugged in so that like, Hey, you know what, we're still here.
In this newsletter, I actually suggest that this is a great time of year to revisit habits and schedules. I know that the changing season for me is always a time to kind of reboot, so I'm like, work us into your schedule—like you would the gym, right? Put us on the calendar and, you know, just make an effort to come in, even if it's one day a week to get out of your home and out of the isolation that a lot of us have been in since the pandemic.
I really quickly want to get some of the logistics stuff with the member lunch in case people want to implement this. Do you just grab whoever's around or do you set it up a week ahead of time? Is it spontaneous? How do you do that?
When someone signs up, they fill out an application form, we send them a welcome email and then I invite them to slack. When they join our slack channel, I send them another welcome message
The whole entire Candy Factory team that they'll be working with is included in that direct message with them. And then in that message I say, I'm taking you to lunch. Pick a day that works for you like a Thursday that works for you. And I use Calendly for them to be able to book it. And so they'll book it out and I have up to five spots available on that calendar so we can have multiple people.
And then the day before I send them a message with everyone who's coming to lunch so that they can even check out who's coming to lunch with them and say, Hey, all four or five people. We're scheduled for lunch tomorrow. This is where we're going to meet. This is what we're going to do. And it just gives them opportunities then to go and revisit.
It's like, oh, who was that person who was at lunch with me? They can go back to that direct message in slack and also see that. So it's a couple of steps to get people signed up and prepped and ready for it, but it's so worth it. I believe that members have stayed with the community because they met someone at that lunch that really helped them get connected.
100%. I had an interesting experience when I joined NextSpace Santa Cruz. I got dropped into this amazing community. Like it was already this fast moving community. When I moved to Park City, I joined kiln, which had been open two weeks. So we didn't really know each other, people were kind of bouncing around and now like a year and a half later, it's a bustling thriving community.
Nice.
It was really informative. For me to be in a space where I was new in a new town and didn't know anyone: new space, like literally brand new space. It helped me realize the importance of making connections and it's slow, right? Like community and coworking are built one connection at a time, one conversation.
There's no way to just say, Hey, we're a community! when people don't know each other. It's like those, all those little human touch points.
Something I wanted to circle back on. You said before having members do things—and this is kind of counterintuitive and space operators don't want to ask something of their members. But when I turned the corner here, the first day I felt like I fully belonged in the space, was the first day I taught a workshop here. I shared what I knew. I got a chance to talk about it. I got to get into service mindset a little bit. People learned my name. I learned a little bit about them.
And then I had people to be like, oh, Hey, how's it going? Or, you know, follow up questions or something. But being able to pour into the community, I feel like that's where ownership and true membership happens, you know?
Oh yeah, no, it's so true. Right. So getting members to participate, to engage, they become invested—from making a pot of coffee to taking out the trash.
We ask that of our members, as well as hosting lunch and learns, which is a great way for them to showcase their skills. We have a really great espresso machine. And one of our members is right now thoroughly cleaning it for us. We teach members how to use it. They can do like celebrity barista hours, really getting people engaged and feeling like they're part of something bigger is really important.
And so when a member comes to us, we're always asking for feedback and suggestions. And when someone comes to us and says, we'd love to see this thing, I'm like, great. You wanna run that thing? And a lot of times they're like, Yeah, I do. One of our newer members actually on their first day came to us and said, you know, we have knitting needles and stuff like that for people to be able to knit if they want.
And she was like, do we have a craft channel or a club? And I'm like, no, that's one club we actually don't have. And she's like, I wanna start that. And I'm like, We're gonna help you do that. So, you know, empowering members to feel ownership is really, really important to the experience. And when you had mentioned about like, coworking, it's like, you know, connections, like connection and connection, it's really about, you know, making that personal connection.
One thing I do that's very helpful and members have said this is that when I walk through this space and I see people working near each other, I call them table roommates. And they're not talking or they have, I could tell, like I've been watching and they're not really engaging. I go up and I say, Hey, have you guys introduced yourselves yet? And they're like, no . And I'm like, okay, well, Joe, this is John. And it sparks an immediate conversation. And the more I get to know about members and the more my team gets to know about their, you know, their interests and, and how they engage best, we can then make really intentional connections with people.
A good example is two of our members who tend to be shyer, kind of introverted, um, Both have this soccer passion and work for soccer companies. And the minute I saw that they were in the same space together. I said, Lawrence, John, come here. Like you guys need to meet. Yeah. You have to be intentional about it.
You really need to know your members, how they tick, what their interests are. And then you can be very mindful and strategic about getting them together. And once you make that, John came to me afterwards and said, that was a great connection. Thank you. And I'm like, yeah, I knew it. You both have the same passions.
So it's work, but what I love about coworking is just seeing those connections happen every day. We have an opportunity to build new friendships and relationships and businesses. The amount of couples people have gotten married from our survey space is incredible. When you think about it, just because they talked to each other across from a table one day
The power of coworking, I will just sing this from the mountaintop because it completely transformed my life. It's just what you talked about, friendships, collaborations, businesses, potential life partnerships. It's like, there's something that happens here when there's an intention around community connection, collaboration and all that. It’s so important. I feel like it's the future. I feel like it's what humans desperately need.
It's the same thing that you experienced 12 years ago when you're like, we don't wanna work at home. We don't wanna work in isolation like that throughline is still here. It's just massive right now. Yeah, the pandemic proved the remote model. The projections for coworking are just insane.
So I wanna get your perspective being here at the very beginning, like very much when coworking was a movement, right. Through this kind of awkward transition where there was a little polarization and now it's just like, it's happening. It's like this global industry. What's your sense of things right now? Do you have concerns about where it's going? Where would you like to see it going? Like space operators are coming in, that they don't have much experience with coworking it's like they wanna do it. They wanna be part of it, but they don't have this kind of movement history that you have.
So that was a lot of questions, but what's your sense of all this as it's just exploded?
It's so fascinating because I feel like when we first started, it was so new and in its infancy and we could all kind of create this new and exciting experience that no one had ever had any knowledge of before. Right? So the sky was the limit. And now I think that as we could also read trends, I think over the years, um, a bit more, and then the pandemic hit and it was like, all the trends were out the window. Right. We were just kind of like, what's going on and, and how are we gonna survive this?
And so it's been really interesting to see this, uptick and obviously remote workers coming into the workforce. I think what we saw before was that we always had a lot of remote workers. We've always been about 50, 50, like 50 remote, 50 small business owners and freelancers, that kind of thing. Um, but a lot of the remote workers in the marketplace right now, some are not choosing to be remote.
And that's, what's kind of different. Is that. You know, they're being forced into remote and a lot of them want that. They want that experience. They want to be remote and the pandemic just expedited the kind of gig economy and remote work by 10 years anyway. Um, but. You know, they're struggling with, what is this, what is this future gonna look like for me?
Right. And some of them are at home and they're isolated and I'm looking for opportunities. And so that to get out and coworking is a natural fit. Um, and some people are like, well, What are my options? Coworking cafes, and they're really not happy with any of them. So we're, we're finding some people who are coming in, dipping their toe into coworking and they're just really not sure what the future of remote work looks like for them.
And they're not choosing, coworking like remote workers before the pandemic. Did, if that makes sense. Like, we felt like the remote workers coming to the door, they knew they were, they were opting into remote work. They wanted to cowork, and they were very kind of committed to it. Where now we're seeing it's a little … I can't find the right word, but it's not as stable as it.
Before the pandemic. So I'm really excited to see more people have workplace flexibility. I hate to say work from home. I think it's it's workplace flexibility. I wanna see more people advocating for their businesses to cover their memberships. Uh, we have a lot of companies who really understand the importance of covering coworking memberships, but then we have a lot who don't and I think people need to advocate for that.
But the trends have been a little hard to see. And so we're seeing an uptick. We see a lot of new people to the area, a lot of transplants, but I'm still really kind of unsure with where the trend is gonna go and how coworking is gonna be impacted. We're seeing a lot of office space in our community not renting.
And so we have a lot more people who are saying we're, they're gonna become coworking and they're really not community focused. It's a rented desk. And so if someone's first experience with kind of a sterile office experience, then they think all coworking is the same and that's unfortunate as well.
So we're really trying to get out there and educate, you know, remote workers, especially who are new to this to say we're very different from your rent a desk component. You know it's gonna be interesting to see. I have a hard time predicting too far out, but we definitely are seeing growth.
And I do think the coworking movement is slated to see incredible growth with this complete shift to remote work. I mean, some of our remote workers, if their companies call them back, they're like, I'm finding a new job. And that's something else that's really interesting for companies to think about, like coworking should be a perk.
It should be a benefit. You're gonna get some of the best talent by giving them flexibility and also giving them an option to get outta their house. So it's fascinating to me how the workforce is changing and how we work is changing. It has changed so dramatically in 12 years, but people come to the table more educated about coworking now, and that's been very, very helpful for us.
It is so fascinating. And you mentioned a segment there that isn't getting a lot of air time. Like they're the people who love remote companies and employee sides all in on that. They're the people who wanna be in offices and they're pushing for that. But that segment, you mentioned of people who their company has gone remote and they don't necessarily want that.
And they're like, Ah, this isn't working for me, but what's the, what's the good in between. I feel like those people don't get enough air time of like, we don't want this. Yeah. We wanna be around people. And I think part of it is these companies that are choosing to go fully remote. Are they taking a fully remote approach when it comes to company culture?
So we have some companies in house who've been remote since day one. They started as remote companies and they have a really strong company culture based on, you know, a remote workforce. So companies who had physical offices who were going fully remote. It takes some work on the company's side to make sure that employees feel ncluded.
And part of that, you know, vested in that company and by providing places for like coworking spaces for them to gather as teams and to still connect person to person when they can is a huge plus. And so there is that little segment of the population that I think is a little lost that we're trying to help.
I think it's interesting that community building is now a needed thing for remote companies. Like you have to have somebody who's making sure people are engaged and connected and know all the things who their sole purpose is just doing the community building with a remote team, because it's not like everything's just the same, except on zoom. It's like, that's a nightmare, right? Yeah. Just like back to back calls all day.
I wanna nerd out on marketing for a minute with you because the candy factory brand is so strong. And I know you are in marketing and have a long marketing background. So I would just love to hear kind of how you approach marketing and branding a community focused space. Like let's just get into that a little bit.
Well, one thing that we determined pretty early on was our voice, right? Like what kind of voice do we wanna put out there to the public? And internally as well, we're very casual and we're bold. And we like to have a lot of fun. So our marketing is based on those things.
We wanna showcase the community. We wanna showcase that we're, we're casual, we're fun, but we're also a very productive space. So determining the voice of your brand is so important, so it's not just the logo and your collateral on your website. It's also like how you present yourself and what's the vibe that someone's gonna get when they take a look at your, your site or your social.
And you know, marketing has changed dramatically over the last 12 years. Right? So how we capture people's attention has shifted all pretty much online, except for, oh, we do events and internal stuff like that, but on. Overall marketing plan. Instagram is huge for us. So many people come to us and say, you know, I came here because of your Instagram account.
We totally lucked out and got the @coworking many, many, many moons ago. Cause we've been around. And you have an inflatable unicorn on your Instagram. It's like people who go to coworking they see your brand, your logo. I love, love, love, you know, I love it. Thank you. It's so cool. It feels like your town and your culture and everything all in one.
We offer all of the resources. You need to get a great, you know, day of work in, but you're also gonna have opportunities to have fun and connect and, and do something that you might not ever have done before. So for us, it's more about the vibe and less about the sale when it comes to all of our marketing. Because if people are looking for coworking, They're looking for the vibe that works for them.
And a lot of times people are searching coworking in Lancaster and we know that, so we do some Google ads and we do come up in those kinds of searches. Our website has been around for so long. It gets good traffic. You know, the content that you suggest is so helpful talking about other things within the community that people might be looking for.
For example, one article we wrote was parking tips and Lancaster because parking can be kind of a pain. And it's one of the most visited blog posts we have written, and so many people have clicked through to schedule a tour just through that page. So, you know, it's multiple tools, multiple platforms. But when it comes to everything, it's all about the energy.
Like, are we projecting the energy that you're going to feel when you walk into our space and you know, the plants, like you said, I mean, we have plants everywhere as every coworking space should. And the worst marketing for coworking is that empty desk saying, we have a desk for you because I'm not drawn to that.
I'm not drawn to an empty desk. I'm drawn to a room full of people who look like they're all engaged. And that's why we're not the right fit for everybod. We put forth the energy that we create and the vibe that you're going to have when you're in a space like ours and people will filter out. Like, you know, that's not the vibe I'm looking for.
I am looking for a more traditional office. We're the anti-office. So it helps filter people who might not be a good fit as well, because they can tell pretty quickly if they look at our social, if they're a good fit or not. I think it's so important. Like being someone who looks at different coworking spaces, lots of websites when I'm in different towns, I hunt around and see what's there.
Seeing a website that shows nice meeting rooms, nice space and stuff, but without anyone that I can't see, who's actually in the space to see if I can see myself in there. Like, is it gonna be people in, you know, white button down shirts and slacks? Or is it gonna be somebody with a basketball jersey? Just give me a sense of it.
And the bigger picture of branding is, like you said, so much more than the logo. The colors you choose. It's like, what is the vibe? What's the feel people are gonna have in and around your, your space and community. Yeah. And I think it's really important that if you're gonna project that, then that better be true, because I think that the worst experience is someone's like, oh, this looks like so much fun.
And then they show up and they're like, this is not anything that you're projecting. So I think that's also important is authenticity. Like, are you actually true to the experience? Are you projecting a true experience? We try really hard to do that, and sometimes it's just spontaneous and fun.
And that's, the one thing about marketing for me is like, I need to be enjoying it. You know, my backgrounds in design and marketing, I was working from home for years. That's why I started the networking group. That's why the candy factory exists. So I wanna make sure that it's true.
Everything we project is true to and authentic. To the mission and, and the experience. Yeah, I think about, and talk about a lot of letting people in on that journey. Like if a brand new space opens and they're like, we're a coworking community. It's like, you're not quite yet. Right. But if you say we are building a community of entrepreneurs and creatives and freelancers in such and such a town, it's like, oh, that's cool.
Right? Like, I don't wanna sit in an empty space and be told I'm in community. If I can get looped in and help to build something cool, cool. Like people want that people want and need that sense of belonging. And when you were talking about introducing the two people, I feel like people are just poised.
We just want a little tiny opening to connect with someone. And it reminds me years ago I was interviewing someone from the little free library organization. Yeah. And they were talking. They lived in a neighborhood for years and they would kind of wave at their neighbors as they drove in and out of their driveway.
But there wasn't any real sense of community, but they put a little free library in their yard. She said within 15 minutes, she had met more people than she had met in four years. People are desperate if you just signal a little bit, like I'm here for it. I'm like let's, let's connect. Let's do something cool together.
People are desperate for that, but hesitant to be the first one to open the door. It's so true. I think again, you know, we, as, you know, community facilitators, we are connectors. Our job. Is to help facilitate connections. And I take that very seriously. I want to make sure that everyone feels like they have a place here and that it's at their comfort level and we're very intentional about it.
I think that the little library is a great example. We actually have a library right out front of our space and that's not for us or for our internal community. We have libraries in house. It's for the external community and we encourage people to come to our door. We have a low income senior apartment complex, literally right next door to us. And we really engage with the residents of that building and we encourage them to participate. We have one member, well he's kind of like an honorary member, Jim, who comes in from the apartment complex and he's in his nineties and he works on his poetry. And so we help him type up that poetry.
And so for us, the community's not just in house here at the candy factory, it's everything that surrounds us, it's everyone. I think being a connector is really about understanding the external community and understanding the resources too, like our members come to us and they say, where do I find out about X, Y, Z?
And I want to be able to say, you go to this organization or you tap score. You go to assets, community foundation. Business resources for remote workers who just moved to the area and they have no idea the best, you know, brew pub to go to. You wanna be that connector in all different facets and by inviting actually the external community that's around you in is a great way to do that. And things like a little library out front of your facility is the smart, smart way to do it.
Anne, what an absolute pleasure to connect, to catch up. Thank you so much. Is there anything you wanna make sure to mention before we jump off?
You know, for us, it's just, you know, be authentic really at the end of the day. And also if you're really interested in coworking and building a coworking community, make the community its core. Our facility is beautiful, but it's not super polished. You know, it doesn't have to look like it came out of a magazine. Our members just love the community. They love the resources here.
Understand that it doesn't always have to be perfect. Just do right by the community, help them not only engage, but let them help you and guide you and your decisions and also how your space should evolve. That's the one thing I've been very intentional about over the years is getting members to give feedback on our evolution and making sure that it suits their needs, not just our needs. So it’s all about the community. Be all in and if you're passionate about it, and it just grows and grows and grows and they are cheerleaders for your coworking space.
Yeah. Coworking is not a top down thing. If it is, you're a single point of failure, right? It's a center out kind of thing.
Yeah, very much.
Where do you wanna send people to learn more, to connect with you? Well, you can check out our website, coworkinginlancaster.com. And all of our social accounts are there.
We're @coworking on Instagram hit me up. I'm @ Anne Kirby on Instagram as well. It's a great place for us to connect. And if anybody ever wants to chat, I'm always open to that too conversations with other coworking spaces. So just, just send me a message through our website or Instagram.
You bring so much to this whole thing, Anne.
After a short break turned into three years and a wild ride through a pandemic, Coworking Out Loud is back! A podcast for workspace operators, community builders and creators, Coworking Out Loud is an exploration into the deeper side of coworking, content and community.
In this episode, Cat Johnson gives a quick glimpse into the vision for the show and a brief introduction for all the people who have joined the CJ Co community since the last episode.
🔗 catjohnson.co | Coworking Convo | The Lab
🎶 Music by Grip Grand
🎥 Recorded on Riverside.fm
When I set up a call with my friend Garrett Tichy from Hygge Coworking in Charlotte, North Carolina, my intention was to talk about how the recent shooting on the UNC campus affected Tichy and the Hygge community.
We touched on his experience, and got into so much more.
Garrett is one of the leaders of the coworking movement. He is also an amazingly kind and open-hearted human who pours everything he has into serving his local community.
I'm thrilled with how this episode turned out and hope you get as much out of it as I did.
Coworking Content Note: On June 26, I'm teaching a virtual training on creating a content workflow for your space. If you need guidance on putting a content system into place, join us.
Music by Grip Grand. Coworking space operators: Subscribe to the Coworking Out Loud Newsletter to get industry insights, resources and content tips sent to you every Thursday.
My first great a-ha moment with coworking came in 2015.
I was in Berkeley covering GCUC for a publication.
Tony Bacigalupo, who I didn't know at the time but who has become a dear friend, opened GCUC by asking the audience who thought coworking was about dividing up commercial real estate for a profit.
No hands went up.
He then asked who thought coworking was about something more.
Every hand in the room went up.
It was a life-changing moment. I felt that "something more" and was amazed to see how many others did, as well.
This week I chatted with Tony about that moment, about his work with New Work Cities helping hundreds of space operators create community-focused coworking spaces, and how we, as a movement, are sitting on a massive amount of untapped potential.
He also offered a challenge to the global community, at large, to create positive impact around the world.
To share your impact idea with us, email me.
Music by Grip Grand. Coworking space operators: Subscribe to the Coworking Out Loud Newsletter to get industry insights, resources and content tips sent to you every Thursday.
Tara Everett is passionately pursuing her vision to open Canoe Coworking, an indigenous coworking space in Manitoba, a Canadian prairie province.
Tara's plan for Canoe is to create a space that honors indigenous cultural roots and traditions while supporting local entrepreneurs, independent professionals and small businesses.
Talking with Tara is always a reminder for me that what we're doing with the coworking movement is not new—it's a return to community.
One way to support Tara's work is to contribute to the Canoe Coworking crowdfunding campaign.
Note on the podcast: I use Ringr (affiliate link) to record my calls. It's a super-slick way to get a high-quality recording on both sides. Music by Grip Grand. Podcast production by Trevor Twining. Coworking space operators: Subscribe to the Coworking Out Loud Newsletter to get industry insights, resources and content tips sent to you every Thursday.
Sam Rosen from Deskpass is a self-described "coworking grandpa."
He's been active in the coworking movement since the early days, he has the perspective of a coworking member, a space operator and a visionary as a founder of Deskpass.
And, Sam is an absolute blast to talk with. He always makes me laugh...and think.
Sam and I chatted about family life, how his dream coworking space might be someone else's worst nightmare, and how he helps people find the right coworking space for right now.
Note on the podcast: I use Ringr (affiliate link) to record my calls. It's a super-slick way to get a high-quality recording on both sides. Music by Grip Grand. Podcast production by Trevor Twining. Coworking space operators: Subscribe to the Coworking Out Loud Newsletter to get industry insights, resources and content tips sent to you every Thursday.
Kaya Lindsay of One Chick Travels inspires me daily. A fellow member of the NextSpace Santa Cruz community, Kaya lives, works and travels in her Sprinter van, she climbs rocks like a rockstar, and she's a savvy social media pro making her best life happen.
Kaya is also one of the most authentic people I know. She shares openly about her life, her joys, her struggles, and her amazing experiences on the road.
Listen in as we talk about what it's like to be a digital nomad living the vanlife, the challenges of being vulnerable when you have a big following, and how coworking is her unofficial business school.
Music by Grip Grand. Podcast production by Trevor Twining.
Note about the sound: Sorry my voice is boomy. I made a mistake recording it, and Trevor worked his magic to get it to listenable. The good news is that I now have a new tool and the next interview is clean and listener-friendly. Thanks for hanging with me as I make my way around this interview podcast learning curve. Coworking space operators: Subscribe to the Coworking Out Loud Newsletter to get industry insights, resources and content tips sent to you every Thursday.
Susan Dorsch, who co-founded Office Nomads, the longest running coworking space in Seattle, is a quiet giant of coworking (and a dear friend of mine).
I'm thrilled to have Susan as my first guest as the Coworking Out Loud Podcast relaunches as an interview show.
Listen in as we dive into how Susan's Quaker roots inform her coworking philosophies, why she doesn't call herself a community builder, and why small coworking spaces shouldn't pay attention to what big box coworking is doing.
Music by Grip Grand. Podcast production by Trevor Twining.
Coworking space operators: Subscribe to the Coworking Out Loud Newsletter to get industry insights, resources and content tips sent to you every Thursday.
Belonging is a core part of being human.
Without a circle of people around us, life on earth would be challenging, indeed.
Some people find that sense of belonging in our family and friends. Others find it in social groups, church, gangs, coworking spaces, work.
I was talking to my mom the other day and she was telling me all about her busy social life as a semi-retired woman. It struck me that my mom is an expert in creating community and finding ways to belong.
In this episode of the Coworking Out Loud Podcast, I share some insights into my mom's search for ways to connect, and the important role coworking spaces can play in providing a sense of belonging.
Have a listen and let me know what you think. You can email me or comment below.
If you like this podcast, please leave a review in the Apple Podcast app. Thanks!
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Music by Grip Grand
My mom is from a musical family and she made sure my siblings and I learned to play instruments.
She said we'd thank her one day, and she was right. I'm really grateful to have a solid musical foundation.
My mom also encouraged us to get out of our comfort zones.
One day she had me play my flute at the local detention center. It was a most memorable day, indeed.
I shared the story in this week's episode of the Coworking Out Loud Podcast.
Did you grow up playing music? Do you have any horror stories to share? Leave a comment, or drop me an email and let me know. I'd love to hear from you.
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Music by Grip Grand
Recently, one of my best coworking pals found herself back at NextSpace Santa Cruz after a year away.
Her second day back, something magical happened in the space—and I happened to catch it on my recorder.
This episode is a quickie, but it's the story of one of my favorite things that has ever happened in my home coworking space. Hope you like it.
If you like the podcast, please leave me a rating and review. I'd appreciate it! Here's a quick guide on how to leave a review from your phone in the Apple Podcast app.
Coworking space operators: subscribe to the Coworking Out Loud Newsletter to stay in the loop and receive weekly content marketing tips
Music by Grip Grand
You might have noticed from all the rainbow flags in your social media feeds that we are well into Pride Month.
In this week's episode of the Coworking Out Loud Podcast, I dive into the deeper meaning behind community pride, share a somewhat embarrassing story of trying to find community as a young, queer person, and talk about what it means to truly belong someplace.
Here are links to the inclusion and diversity in coworking resources:
Inclusion, Diversity & Accessibility in Collaborative Workspaces event in London, June 18. Creating Diverse and Inclusive Coworking Communities Facebook Group
Coworking space operators: subscribe to the Coworking Out Loud Newsletter to stay in the loop and receive weekly content marketing tips
Music by Grip Grand
I recently found myself at a gathering of introverts. It was new territory for me, but I learned a lot about myself...and about how important it is to find ways for everyone to contribute to conversations.
It's not always the people who are talking the loudest that have the most interesting stories.
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Music by Grip Grand
My worst interview ever was with Erika Wennerstrom from the Heartless Bastards. I was a mess, everything was going wrong, and it was not great. At all.
Recently I had the opportunity to change the ending to that story when I re-interviewed Wennerstrom. The experience proved to be absolutely amazing. Here's the story.
Links: Erika Wennerstrom Her new album, Sweet Unknown My interview with Wennerstrom Coworking space operators: subscribe to the Coworking Out Loud Newsletter to stay in the loop and receive weekly content marketing tips
Music by Grip Grand
I think of my grandparents pretty much every day. Bud and Ethel were great role models. They were loving, accepting, committed and fun.
Grandma and grandpa taught me a lot about the importance of community. Several times a week they did things with friends and their various communities. They were active, engaged, members of clubs and groups, and they prioritized their time spent connecting.
In this episode of the Coworking Out Loud Podcast I share a few stories and my thoughts on how we went from previous generations being super social and active, to now, as we face a loneliness epidemic.
Have a listen and let me know what you think. If you have ideas about what previous generations did well, where we went wrong, and what we can do to bring community back to the core of our lives, shoot me an email, hit me up on Twitter.
Bonus: At the 11:15 mark, our cat, Baker, also known as Franklin Underfoot, starts meowing to go outside, so this turned into a collaboration. :)
Coworking space operators: subscribe to the Coworking Out Loud Newsletter to stay in the loop and receive weekly content marketing tips
Music by Grip Grand
Whew, last week's episode on vulnerability was a doozie.
As you might recall, I waited days to publish it because I was not at all sure that I wanted to share such a raw, emotional post.
But I did, and I'm so glad I did. Since then, probably 12 people have reached out to me to share their own stories about hard times, being vulnerable, navigating impossible emotions, and being a leader when things are falling apart on a personal level.
It was a huge affirmation to keep being real and open, both in my life and in this podcast.
This week's episode is about trust: what it means, what we can trust, and how that word has changed tremendously for me in the last few weeks.
Give it a listen and let me know what you think. What does trust mean to you?
Coworking space operators: subscribe to the Coworking Out Loud Newsletter to stay in the loop and receive weekly content marketing tips
Music by Grip Grand
Heads-up: This episode is emotional, raw and real. If that's not your thing, or if you're not in the space to go there right now, better skip this one.
This episode of the Coworking Out Loud Podcast terrifies me.
The first version of episode 005 was me chatting about getting started with your content—not letting fear and over-analysis keep you from creating content. The reality is, you have to start to learn how to do it. You can't analyze your way to good content.
But listening back to the recording, it felt flat and inauthentic. So I recorded this, which is me sharing some real, hard insights into my year and life right now. Since June, I've lost three young people in my immediate circle. It's been heartbreaking and impossibly difficult.
If you're here for this level of real, have a listen. If you make it through, please do reach out to me with your stories, experience and strategies for keeping it all together professionally when things are falling apart personally.
Thanks for listening.
Sidenotes I'm doing fine. I recorded this last week at an absolute low emotional point. After recording this episode, I felt like I had turned the corner on some of this and have been feeling clear, connected and grateful ever since.
If you're wondering why I shared this it's because I want to live, and work, in a world where we can be honest, authentic, vulnerable and powerful. Pretending to be perfect is boring and toxic. I want to spend my time with people who treasure genuine connection between humans, in all our messy glory. I want to be brave enough to be myself in this world and I figure this is a good opportunity to practice.
Links: Here's Trevor Twining's blog post about depression that I mention Music by Grip Grand Coworking space operators: subscribe to the Coworking Out Loud Newsletter to stay in the loop and receive weekly content marketing tips
I come from a family of storytellers and bookworms.
Stories were an everyday part of my childhood, especially stories about our family.
The stories helped us understand who we were and where we came from.
Storytelling is an important part of your coworking brand. How did your workspace and community come to be? Why are people attracted to your space? What connections and experiences help define your space?
In this episode of the Coworking Out Loud Podcast, I provide a glimpse into the power of storytelling, and share ideas for storytelling in your coworking space and community.
Coworking space operators: subscribe to the Coworking Out Loud Newsletter to stay in the loop and receive weekly content marketing tips
At GCUC Canada in October I found myself unexpectedly singing and crying among hundreds of coworking friends.
It was a flawed, human moment brought on by beauty, sadness, loss and a collective spirit of vulnerability.
Subscribe to the Coworking Out Loud Newsletter Episode links: GCUC Canada Coworking with Iris Music by Grip Grand
When I was in my early twenties, I moved by myself to Santa Cruz, California.
I was doing some soul-searching at the time, trying to figure out what I wanted from life.
One day I was walking, asking for clarity, when something unbelievably-true happened.
Make of it what you will. :)
Music by Grip Grand
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