The React Podcast: Recent Episodes
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Interviews and news about React hosted by Michael Jackson (retired). The React Podcast covers everything React.js and is hosted by Michael Jackson, the founder of React Training and co-author of React Router.
Back at React Summit in New York, KBall & Nick sat down with Tom Occhino & Shruti Kapoor for more fascinating conversations.
Tom Occhino, a key figure in React’s history at Facebook (now Meta), reveals the origin story of React, which began when an ads engineer presented a revolutionary approach to web UI rendering. The discussion extends to React’s evolution through Next.js.
Then, Shruti Kapoor breaks down React 19’s major features, including React Server Components (RSC), the new compiler implementation, and enhanced APIs that promise to streamline development workflows.
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Featuring:
- Tom Occhino – Twitter, LinkedIn, Website
- Shruti Kapoor – Twitter, GitHub, Website
- Nick Nisi – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, Website
- Kevin Ball – Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn, Website
Show Notes:
- React.js: The Documentary
- React 19 RC
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
At React Summit in New York, KBall & Nick sat down with Kent C. Dodds & Theo Browne for two fascinating conversations. Both of them showed us the whole gamut of their personalities!
Kent shared his insights on effective teaching methodologies and the future of developer education, while diving deep into React and the Remix/React Router ecosystem, and closing on an appeal for kindness int he world.
Then Theo took us behind the scenes of his developer-focused content creation, from streaming to the origins of the T3 stack, and how his online persona (including T3!) is “just him”.
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- WorkOS – AuthKit offers 1,000,000 monthly active users (MAU) free — The world’s best login box, powered by WorkOS + Radix. Learn more and get started at WorkOS.com and AuthKit.com
- Jam.dev – One click bug reports developers love — Never explain another bug report again. Jam auto-captures all the info engineers need to debug and repro.
Featuring:
- Kent C. Dodds – Twitter, GitHub, Website
- Theo Browne – Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn
- Kevin Ball – Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn, Website
- Nick Nisi – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, Website
Show Notes:
- React Summit
- Epic Web
- Remix
- React Router
- T3 Stack
- Cursor
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
Recently, four pillars of the JavaScript community (James Snell, Natalia Venditto, Michael Dawson & Matteo Collina) teamed up to create a resource that lays out nine principles for doing Node.js right in enterprise environments. On this episode, Natalia & Matteo join Jerod to discuss all nine.
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- Notion – Notion is a place where any team can write, plan, organize, and rediscover the joy of play. It’s a workspace designed not just for making progress, but getting inspired. Notion is for everyone — whether you’re a Fortune 500 company or freelance designer, starting a new startup or a student juggling classes and clubs.
- WorkOS – A platform that gives developers a set of building blocks for quickly adding enterprise-ready features to their application. Add Single Sign-On (Okta, Azure, Google, Microsoft OAuth), sync users from any SCIM directory, HRIS integration, audit trails (SIEM), free magic link sign-in. WorkOS is designed for developers and offers a single, elegant interface that abstracts dozens of enterprise integrations. Learn more and get started at WorkOS.com
- Jam.dev – One click bug reports developers love — Never explain another bug report again. Jam auto-captures all the info engineers need to debug and repro.
Featuring:
- Natalia Venditto – Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn
- Matteo Collina – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, Website
- Jerod Santo – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn
Show Notes:
- Nine Node Pillars
- close-with-grace
- TypeSpec
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
Carmen Huidobro joins Amy, KBall & Nick on the show to talk about her work, the importance of writing docs, and her upcoming conference talk at React Summit US!
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- Fly.io – The home of Changelog.com — Deploy your apps close to your users — global Anycast load-balancing, zero-configuration private networking, hardware isolation, and instant WireGuard VPN connections. Push-button deployments that scale to thousands of instances. Check out the speedrun to get started in minutes.
- Jam.dev – One click bug reports developers love — Never explain another bug report again. Jam auto-captures all the info engineers need to debug and repro.
Featuring:
- Carmen Huidobro – Twitter, GitHub, Website
- Nick Nisi – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, Website
- Kevin Ball – Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn, Website
- Amy Dutton – Twitter, GitHub
Show Notes:
- Divio
- Docs for Developers
- Intuitive Tooling
- Martin Fowler - if it hurts, do it often
- Declutter your JavaScript & TypeScript projects | Knip
- React Summit
- F*cking Block Syntax
- Bad Website Club
- The Annoying Site
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
Vercel CPO, Tom Occhino, joins Jerod for a one-on-one covering React & Next’s past, present & future. We discuss the birth of React, Tom’s move to Vercel, deploying Next apps to non-Vercel hosts, React as the next jQuery, the viability of Web Components, Vercel customers getting surprise bills & so much more.
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Sponsors:
- Fly.io – The home of Changelog.com — Deploy your apps close to your users — global Anycast load-balancing, zero-configuration private networking, hardware isolation, and instant WireGuard VPN connections. Push-button deployments that scale to thousands of instances. Check out the speedrun to get started in minutes.
- WorkOS – A platform that gives developers a set of building blocks for quickly adding enterprise-ready features to their application. Add Single Sign-On (Okta, Azure, Google, Microsoft OAuth), sync users from any SCIM directory, HRIS integration, audit trails (SIEM), free magic link sign-in. WorkOS is designed for developers and offers a single, elegant interface that abstracts dozens of enterprise integrations. Learn more and get started at WorkOS.com
- Notion – Notion is a place where any team can write, plan, organize, and rediscover the joy of play. It’s a workspace designed not just for making progress, but getting inspired. Notion is for everyone — whether you’re a Fortune 500 company or freelance designer, starting a new startup or a student juggling classes and clubs.
Featuring:
- Tom Occhino – Twitter, LinkedIn, Website
- Jerod Santo – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn
Show Notes:
- React.js: The Documentary - YouTube
- React, React Native, Flux, Relay, GraphQL (Changelog Interviews #149)
- Next.js Conf by Vercel
- v0 by Vercel
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
Jerod & the gang play “Twenty” Questions to get to know Amy, review the big Svelte 5 release, discuss commercial open source & get Nick’s report from SquiggleConf!
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- Fly.io – The home of Changelog.com — Deploy your apps close to your users — global Anycast load-balancing, zero-configuration private networking, hardware isolation, and instant WireGuard VPN connections. Push-button deployments that scale to thousands of instances. Check out the speedrun to get started in minutes.
- Jam.dev – One click bug reports developers love — Never explain another bug report again. Jam auto-captures all the info engineers need to debug and repro.
- WorkOS – A platform that gives developers a set of building blocks for quickly adding enterprise-ready features to their application. Add Single Sign-On (Okta, Azure, Google, Microsoft OAuth), sync users from any SCIM directory, HRIS integration, audit trails (SIEM), free magic link sign-in. WorkOS is designed for developers and offers a single, elegant interface that abstracts dozens of enterprise integrations. Learn more and get started at WorkOS.com
Featuring:
- Jerod Santo – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn
- Kevin Ball – Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn, Website
- Nick Nisi – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, Website
- Amy Dutton – Twitter, GitHub
Show Notes:
- Svelte 5 is alive
- Join us at React Summit US (10% off)
- Join us at JSNation US (10% off)
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
KBall interviews Jerod about the tools he uses in development, podcasting & business. We start with text editors & terminal tools, move to podcast recording & editing tools, discuss the open source podcasting platform Jerod built in Elixir, then finish with tools to run a small business & our approaches to genAI. Oh, and you don’t want to miss Jerod’s Big Confession!
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Sponsors:
- Jam.dev – One click bug reports developers love — Never explain another bug report again. Jam auto-captures all the info engineers need to debug and repro.
- Notion – Notion is a place where any team can write, plan, organize, and rediscover the joy of play. It’s a workspace designed not just for making progress, but getting inspired. Notion is for everyone — whether you’re a Fortune 500 company or freelance designer, starting a new startup or a student juggling classes and clubs.
Featuring:
- Kevin Ball – Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn, Website
- Jerod Santo – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn
Show Notes:
- Nick’s tool box
- Zed Editor
- tmux
- Smug
- thechangelog/changelog.com
- Elixir
- Phoenix
- Atuin
- Riverside
- Adobe Audition
- Transistor
- Harvest
- Freshbooks
- Gusto
- Ollama
- Enchanted
- Cursor
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
Jerod & KBall discuss a trio of goings on in/around the web dev world: Evan You’s new startup, Matt Mullenweg’s WordPress mess & Ryan Carniato’s WebComponents debate.
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Sponsors:
- Fly.io – The home of Changelog.com — Deploy your apps close to your users — global Anycast load-balancing, zero-configuration private networking, hardware isolation, and instant WireGuard VPN connections. Push-button deployments that scale to thousands of instances. Check out the speedrun to get started in minutes.
- WorkOS – A platform that gives developers a set of building blocks for quickly adding enterprise-ready features to their application. Add Single Sign-On (Okta, Azure, Google, Microsoft OAuth), sync users from any SCIM directory, HRIS integration, audit trails (SIEM), free magic link sign-in. WorkOS is designed for developers and offers a single, elegant interface that abstracts dozens of enterprise integrations. Learn more and get started at WorkOS.com
Featuring:
- Jerod Santo – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn
- Kevin Ball – Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn, Website
Show Notes:
- Join us at React Summit US (10% off)
- Join us at JSNation US (10% off)
- Evan You announces VoidZero
- Automattic Alignment
- Web Components Are Not the Future
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
Tomek Sułkowski from TutorialKit joins Jerod to tell him all about the open source toolkit for creating awesome, interactive tutorials without having to code up the hard parts.
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Sponsors:
- Fly.io – The home of Changelog.com — Deploy your apps close to your users — global Anycast load-balancing, zero-configuration private networking, hardware isolation, and instant WireGuard VPN connections. Push-button deployments that scale to thousands of instances. Check out the speedrun to get started in minutes.
- WorkOS – A platform that gives developers a set of building blocks for quickly adding enterprise-ready features to their application. Add Single Sign-On (Okta, Azure, Google, Microsoft OAuth), sync users from any SCIM directory, HRIS integration, audit trails (SIEM), free magic link sign-in. WorkOS is designed for developers and offers a single, elegant interface that abstracts dozens of enterprise integrations. Learn more and get started at WorkOS.com
- Notion – Notion is a place where any team can write, plan, organize, and rediscover the joy of play. It’s a workspace designed not just for making progress, but getting inspired. Notion is for everyone — whether you’re a Fortune 500 company or freelance designer, starting a new startup or a student juggling classes and clubs.
Featuring:
- Tomek Sułkowski – Twitter, GitHub
- Jerod Santo – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn
Show Notes:
- Running Node natively in the browser with Eric Simons from StackBlitz
- TutorialKit
- TutorialKit on GitHub
TutorialKit in the wild* Welcome to the Vite Plugin API tutorial * Welcome to the Remult tutorial * Welcome to Next Patterns
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
Jerod is joined by Ryan Dahl to discuss his second take on leveling up JavaScript developers all around the world. Jerod asks Ryan why not try to fix or fork Node instead of starting fresh, how Deno (the open source project) can avoid the all too common rug pull (not cool) scenario, what’s new in Deno 2 & their pragmatic decision to support npm, they talk JSR, they talk Deno KV & SQLite, they even talk about Ryan’s open letter to Oracle in an attempt to free the unused “JavaScript” trademark from the giant’s clutches.
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Sponsors:
- Jam.dev – One click bug reports developers love — Never explain another bug report again. Jam auto-captures all the info engineers need to debug and repro.
Featuring:
- Ryan Dahl – Twitter, GitHub, Website
- Jerod Santo – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn
Show Notes:
- Node.js: The Documentary - YouTube
- From Node.js to Deno: How It All Began - YouTube
- 10 Things I Regret About Node.js - YouTube
- JSR: the JavaScript Registry
- rusty_v8: Rust bindings for the V8 JavaScript engine
- JavaScript™ (Dear Oracle)
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
Nick is joined by Josh Goldberg & Dimitri Mitropoulos to discuss SquiggleConf, a new conference focused on web dev tooling. We explore the motivations behind creating a conference dedicated to developer tools, the challenges of organizing both conferences and local meetups, and strategies for building engaged tech communities.
We also discuss the importance of developer tooling, the pandemic’s impact on tech events, and share insights on encouraging new speakers and creating inclusive environments & more!
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Sponsors:
- Fly.io – The home of Changelog.com — Deploy your apps close to your users — global Anycast load-balancing, zero-configuration private networking, hardware isolation, and instant WireGuard VPN connections. Push-button deployments that scale to thousands of instances. Check out the speedrun to get started in minutes.
- Wix – Wix Sudio is for devs who build websites, sell apps, go headless, or manage clients. Integrate, extend and write custom scripts in a VS code-based IDE. Leverage zero set up dev, test and production environments. Ship faster with an AI code assistant. And work with Wix headless API’s on any tech stack.
- Jam.dev – One click bug reports developers love — Never explain another bug report again. Jam auto-captures all the info engineers need to debug and repro.
Featuring:
- Dimitri Mitropoulos – GitHub, LinkedIn
- Josh Goldberg – Twitter, GitHub
- Nick Nisi – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, Website
Show Notes:
- SquiggleConf
- ESLint
- TypeScript ESLint
- Mocha
- Learning TypeScript book
- Michigan TypeScript
- Boston TS Club
- NebraskaJS
- Oh My Zsh (tool by Robbie Russell)
- React
- Vue
- Go programming language
- TypeScript
- New England Aquarium conference venue
- Squiggle Conf Discord
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
Chris Shank has been on sabbatical since January, so he’s had a lot of time to think deeply about the web platform. On this episode, Jerod & KBall pick Chris’ brain to answer questions like, what does a post-component paradigm look like? What would it look like if the browser had primitives for building spatial canvases? How can we make it easier to make “folk interfaces” on the web?
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Sponsors:
- Wix – Wix Sudio is for devs who build websites, sell apps, go headless, or manage clients. Integrate, extend and write custom scripts in a VS code-based IDE. Leverage zero set up dev, test and production environments. Ship faster with an AI code assistant. And work with Wix headless API’s on any tech stack.
- Fly.io – The home of Changelog.com — Deploy your apps close to your users — global Anycast load-balancing, zero-configuration private networking, hardware isolation, and instant WireGuard VPN connections. Push-button deployments that scale to thousands of instances. Check out the speedrun to get started in minutes.
Featuring:
- Chris Shank – Twitter, GitHub, Website
- Jerod Santo – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn
- Kevin Ball – Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn, Website
Show Notes:
- ChrisShank/progressive-element: A set of patterns for a behavioral paradigm of building web UIs
- Little-Languages/quiver: Your quiver of declarative arrows for the web. ⤵
- ChrisShank/folc: Utilities to more easily make folk web pages
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
Jerod, Nick & Chris discuss a next-gen JavaScript bundler, Node getting even tighter with TypeScript, the top programming languages according to IEEE Spectrum, Chris’ feelings on Node’s built-in test runner & more!
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Sponsors:
- Fly.io – The home of Changelog.com — Deploy your apps and databases close to your users. In minutes you can run your Ruby, Go, Node, Deno, Python, or Elixir app (and databases!) all over the world. No ops required. Learn more at fly.io/changelog and check out the speedrun in their docs.
- Wix – Wix Sudio is for devs who build websites, sell apps, go headless, or manage clients. Integrate, extend and write custom scripts in a VS code-based IDE. Leverage zero set up dev, test and production environments. Ship faster with an AI code assistant. And work with Wix headless API’s on any tech stack.
Featuring:
- Jerod Santo – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn
- Nick Nisi – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, Website
- Christopher Hiller – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, Website
Show Notes:
- Announcing Rspack 1.0
- Node.js — Node v22.7.0 (Current)
- Top Programming Languages 2024
- MoonScript, a language that compiles to Lua
- TypeScriptToLua
- Home - Satisfactory Game
- Nest ’dem loops featuring NESTED LOOPS
- Song Encoder: $STDOUT
- The TC39 song
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
Simon Wijckmans from c/side joins Jerod & Nick to discuss the Pollyfill attack in detail. What does it mean for web developers & client-side security going forward?
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Sponsors:
- Wix – Wix Sudio is for devs who build websites, sell apps, go headless, or manage clients. Integrate, extend and write custom scripts in a VS code-based IDE. Leverage zero set up dev, test and production environments. Ship faster with an AI code assistant. And work with Wix headless API’s on any tech stack.
Featuring:
- Simon Wijckmans – Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn, Website
- Jerod Santo – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn
- Nick Nisi – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, Website
Show Notes:
- The Polyfill attack explained
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
Eric Bailey joins Jerod to discuss everything Dungeons & Dragons taught him about writing alt text, building accessible websites, Primer, the problem with a11y overlays & more.
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Sponsors:
- Porkbun – Go to porkbun.com to get .app, .dev, or .foo domain names at Porkbun for only $1 for the first year!
- Wix – Wix Sudio is for devs who build websites, sell apps, go headless, or manage clients. Integrate, extend and write custom scripts in a VS code-based IDE. Leverage zero set up dev, test and production environments. Ship faster with an AI code assistant. And work with Wix headless API’s on any tech stack.
Featuring:
- Eric Bailey – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, Website
- Jerod Santo – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn
Show Notes:
- Dungeons & Dragons taught me how to write alt text
- How we’re building more inclusive and accessible components at GitHub
- Primer
- Data table | Primer
- axe: Accessibility Testing Tools and Software
- ARC Toolkit - Page-Level Testing - TPGi
- HeadingsMap - Chrome Web Store
- Home - The A11Y Project
- Overlay Fact Sheet
- Midnight Lizard - color schemes for all websites
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
Raphael Landaverde & Jake Shirley work on Minecraft full-time. How cool is that?! On this episode, they join Jerod to tell us all about the web tech that drives Minecraft’s scripting infrastructure, how they incrementally change a massive / always-moving target, the best / worst parts of the job & much more.
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Sponsors:
- Wix – Wix Sudio is for devs who build websites, sell apps, go headless, or manage clients. Integrate, extend and write custom scripts in a VS code-based IDE. Leverage zero set up dev, test and production environments. Ship faster with an AI code assistant. And work with Wix headless API’s on any tech stack.
- Changelog News – A podcast+newsletter combo that’s brief, entertaining & always on-point. Subscribe today.
Featuring:
- Raphael Landaverde – Twitter, GitHub
- Jake Shirley – GitHub, Website
- Jerod Santo – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn
Show Notes:
- Hyrum’s Law
- Introduction to Scripting in Minecraft
- Minecraft Bedrock Editor Overview
- microsoft/minecraft-scripting-samples
- Active community Discords
- Raph on Discord: MidoriTerra
- Jake on Discord: DarkNavi
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
Node.js makes big TypeScript & SQLite moves, ECMAScript 2024 adds some niceties to the language (but not the ones you’re probably excited for) & we review the State of React 2023 results. Emergency?! Nick!
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Sponsors:
- Fly.io – The home of Changelog.com — Deploy your apps and databases close to your users. In minutes you can run your Ruby, Go, Node, Deno, Python, or Elixir app (and databases!) all over the world. No ops required. Learn more at fly.io/changelog and check out the speedrun in their docs.
Featuring:
- Jerod Santo – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn
- Kevin Ball – Twitter, GitHub, LinkedIn, Website
- Nick Nisi – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, Website
Show Notes:
I’d rather be TypeScripting
- Node.js adds an experimental feature to strip TypeScript types
- Node.js adds a built-in SQLite module
- util.styleText(format, text)
- What’s New for JavaScript Developers in ECMAScript 2024
- Promise.withResolvers made it in “speedrun” style
- es-toolkit
- State of React 2023 results
- websim.ai
- Jerod’s TS Fan Page
- J-Rod’s TS Fan Shizzle
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
Josh Goldberg joins Nick & Chris to discuss the latest updates from ESLint, typescript-eslint & the new flat config format. They also discuss creating reusable configs & project generators before pivoting to talk about a new conference focused on developer tooling. Finally, Chris & Josh talk about the past, present & future of Mocha.
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Sponsors:
- Neon – Fleets of Postgres! Enterprises use Neon to operate hundreds of thousands of Postgres databases: Automated, instant provisioning of the world’s most popular database.
Featuring:
- Josh Goldberg – Twitter, GitHub
- Nick Nisi – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, Website
- Christopher Hiller – Mastodon, Twitter, GitHub, Website
Show Notes:
- ESLint’s new config system
- Announcing typescript-eslint v8 Beta
- dprint
- Yeoman
- Squiggle Conf
- eslint-plugin-eslint-comments
- JavaScript’s
withkeyword - Mocha
- eslint-nibble
- create-typescript-app
Something missing or broken? PRs welcome!
Sara Vieira is easily one of the most entertaining people we’ve ever had on this show. She has been working with React over the past few years and has recently been traveling around Europe and giving free workshops on React in London and at React Finland.
Sophie Alpert is a core contributor to React and is currently the engineering manager for the React team at Facebook. She has been contributing to React for over 3 years now, making her first contributions while she was working as an engineer at Khan Academy.
Ives van Hoorne is the creator of Codesandbox; an online code editor written completely in React. Although Codesandbox is written in React, it can be used to build applications for any front-end framework.
Kye Hohenberger is the author of the Emotion JavaScript library, a popular choice among React developers who prefer using CSS-in-JS to traditional CSS stylesheets. In this episode we discuss his work on Emotion including where he got the initial inspiration for the project and his motivation for creating it. We also discuss the future of the project and what may be in store for the future of CSS-in-JS.
Nitin Tulswani is a prolific developer and the creator of react-perf-devtool, a library that helps with profiling the performance of your React components since react-addons-perf was deprecated in React 16. In this episode we discuss Nitin’s approach to writing code and the motivation behind several of his open source projects.
James Long is a prolific blogger and the author of several open source libraries including Prettier. He has recently started developing Actual, a budgeting app built in React and Electron. In this episode we talk about James’ approach to business, as well as take a peek behind the scenes at how he works with React.
Andrew Clark is a developer on the React core team at Facebook who has been working on asynchronous rendering. In this episode we do a deep dive on some of the decisions behind the implementation of async mode in React 16 as well as talk about how applications can benefit from using it.
In this episode Michael Jackson talks with David Khourshid about State Machines. David is a developer on the Visual Studio Live Share team at Microsoft. Recently, he’s been exploring methods of using finite state machines together with React to create predictable flows through applications that are easy to follow and test.
In this episode Michael Jackson talks with Henry Zhu, maintainer of the hugely popular Babel project, about open source sustainability and what’s coming next for the Babel project.
In this episode Michael Jackson talks with Dan Abramov, author of Redux and create-react-app, about the responsibility that comes with being an influential voice for React, how future versions of React will leverage requestIdleCallback to schedule work, and the possibility of a future API for React that makes it easier to do async work.
In this episode Michael Jackson talks with Jared Palmer about Razzle, After.js, Formik, several other open source libraries from Jared, as well as Typescript and the implications of the upcoming async APIs in React.
Welcome to the inaugural episode of The React Podcast. In this episode Michael Jackson talks with Nicolas Gallagher about his project React Native for Web, the React Native API, how Twitter’s new mobile website is powered by React Native for Web, and more.