Series 11: Recent Episodes
Access to Inspiration
Access to Inspiration podcast shares interviews with people from a diverse range of backgrounds from around the world. Their stories and insights enable you to transcend day to day challenges, think bigger, and see new possibilities which can ultimately improve business, society and people’s lives.
Sue Stockdale talks to Alex van den Heever, a wildlife tracker and author who worked for many years at the famous Londolozi Game Reserve in South Africa. He served in numerous roles, as a safari guide, tracker and ultimately had full responsibility for the reserve’s environment. Alex describes the ancient skill of tracking and how it relates to modern day decision-making. He shares the five interrelated activities involved in the tracking process: finding the right track, following, anticipation, losing the track and the encounter.
Alex van den Heever was born in Knysna, South Africa in 1975. At age 19, he began working at the world-famous Londolozi Game Reserve. During this time, Alex was paired with Renias Mhlongo, a local Shangaan tracker who grew up as a hunter-gatherer in the greater Kruger National Park. For 27 years the two have worked together tracking wild animals in Peru, Chile, Brazil, North America, Australia, China, and all over Africa. In 2003, Alex became the youngest person ever to be certified as a Senior Wildlife Tracker in South Africa. He is a director and shareholder of EcoTraining, South Africa’s leading guide and environmental training company.
In 2009, Alex and Mrs Gaynor Rupert founded the Tracker Academy, an award-winning non-profit NGO that trains indigenous wildlife trackers. Alex also co-founded Wild Signs, a company that developed the Tracking Success virtual adventure which uses the ancient practice of animal tracking to solve modern-day business problems.
He holds a NQF4 Lead Tracker and Professional Trails Guide qualifications, and a Diploma in Marketing and Business Management from Damelin Business School. Alex has published two books: the bestselling Tracker Manual field guide and Changing a Leopard’s Spots, a book about his working relationship and tracking adventures with Renias Mhlongo. In public engagements Alex speak alongside his friend and colleague of 27 years, Renias Mhlongo, in his language Shangaan, which he translates for the audience.
Find out more about Alex van den Heever via website: Instagram: LinkedIn : Facebook
Tracking Success website and Tracker Academy website and Tracker Academy Instagram
Key QuotesThere are very few animal trackers left in the world. Southern Africa is one of the last places that people still track wild animals.Historically tracking was used for simple reasons of survival.As long as I remember, I've just wanted to be close to nature.I'd done a year of a marketing degree and I was supposed to go back. I was gonna take a year off - that was 27 years ago. I never went back.Renius was old enough to get me outta trouble, but young enough to get me into it.Tracking is for the most part seen by the west as a very mystical, magical skill.The top, most elite trackers in the world have the ability to balance detail analytical thought with creative holistic thinking.Nature operates on relationships. The relationship between the rocks, the soil, the trees, the plants, the birds, the animals, everything is in. They are so intricately linked, and there are relationships there that are ancient and that are fundamental to the success of the system as a whole.If man makes changes to the environment, nature doesn't complain. It simply adapts.Nature is just wordless. Because the animals that these trackers pursue are wild and cannot be controlled. And because the environment in which they operate is vast, there are no signposts. There are no algorithms. There are no consultants to talk to. They have to become aligned with the signs that nature is giving them in order to make good decisions.To track well, you must put the animal in your heart.I think if business leaders would adopt a similar decision making model, they could make better, longer term decisions, taking in not only just the detail, but how their decisions impact the environment.Trackers give themselves time. They go slower rather than faster.94% of those 220 trained in the Tracker Academy are now in permanent conservation jobs. All of whom were unemployed, many without hope.This series is kindly supported by Squadcast –the remote recording platform which empowers podcasters by capturing high-quality audio and video conversations.Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact ReportAlex Van Den Heever TranscriptionSue: Welcome to the podcast, Alex.
Alex: Thank you, Sue. Thank you very much for having me.
Sue: now, I'm excited to speak to you today. I've never spoken to an animal tracker before. I'm wondering what does that involve?
Alex: So, yeah, animal tracking or animal trackers there, there are very few of them left in the world. And obviously in Southern Africa is one of the last places that people still track wild animals. And that has been kept alive by the industry of ecotourism and generally wildlife conservation, tracking is the study of animals, footprints, and all their signs and putting that all together. In, in order to understand what the animal is doing and to be able to follow that trail of evidence and eventually catch up to that animal. So historically tracking was used for simple reasons of survival. People would go out and track animals and try and catch and kill them to feed themselves and their families and the trackers who did well at that ate well.
And the trackers who were poor at tracking suffered. But of course, with rapid urbanization, a worldwide trend in, in these days, people have moved away from landscapes where they have to get food that way in, by hunting and gathering as well as in our country, the legacy of apartheid removed people from their land and, and brought them into, into location. Where there was no opportunity to continue the ancient culture and tradition of tracking, which is very sad. And that's why we don't know exactly, but we've lost the vast majority of traditional tracking skills over the last 50 or 60 years. And that's really the work of the tracker academy, NGO that myself and Renius Mhlongo and, and Gaynor Rupert co-founded in 2010. And the idea of the tracker academy is to restore this ancient skill for the benefit of wildlife conservation, and also to use tracking to do social good
Sue: Well, I'm sure we'll get into that a little bit later in our conversation. Alex, I almost want to go back to the earlier part of your life. And I know you grew upon a cattle farm at that stage. Were you even thinking about animal tracking as a career or as a young boy, what, what, where did you think your life was gonna take you?
Alex: As, as far as I remember and as from the youngest age, I've always wanted to live amongst animals and be in wild places. I am not sure that my upbringing on the farm engendered that. It may well, have we lived, we lived on a farm in the south Cape coast at the foothills of the Tsitsikamma mountains, beautiful lush pastures, my parents and grandparents farmed Aberdeen Angus cattle.
And there was nothing, it was a very tame environment. Yes, it was a farm, but it was very tame by, by comparison to the Kruger national park and other big African wilderness areas. I'm not sure that, but I was surrounded by nature. But as far as I remember, I've just wanted to be close to nature. And I remember when I was in boarding school, I was sent to boarding school very early at the age of nine or 10 years of age. And I would stay out the window and just wish that, that I was in the Bush and, and I was checking and, amongst animals. So I'm not sure quite where that came from genetically somewhere. I know that my grandmother on my mother's side was a, a fervent naturalist and she spent a lot of time in nature and maybe I got it from her.
Sue: Well, we never can tell sometimes where in our past these interests lie. I it was in 1995 that you joined the Londolozi game reserve as a, as a game ranger. Was that, would you say that was a pivotal point in your life?
Alex: Absolutely Londolozi spent 23 years living at Londolozi starting in 1995. I met, Renius Mhlongo who I've worked with for the last 27 years there. I met my wife, had our two children there. And it's been a university for me in many ways. Not only because it's a, it's a game reserve where they're wild animals but also meeting interesting people. And I was 19 years of age at that time, I I'd done a year of a marketing degree and I was supposed to go back. I was gonna take a year. off And that was 27 years ago. I never went back. And and so Londolozi my life there certainly had a profound impact on the trajectory of my life and particularly my career.
Sue: And I understand that you and Renius have got a, a really formidable partnership between the two of you in terms of ranger and tracker. Would you agree with that? And if so, what what's made that special?
Alex: Well, I think someone else has to say that, but I do agree with this statement, but I appreciate the kind words. Yes. Renius and I were thrown together in 1995. We had no selection in each other. We were put together by the head ranger of the time. And I was 19 as I just said. And I think he, he assigned me to the most experienced tracker to try and offset this imbalance of inexperience because I had very little value to add to that job and very little knowledge, quite frankly, of that environment.
And so I think the head ranger. Put me together with this very experienced tracker to try and keep me safe A, and B brings some modicum of experience to the, to the safari and professionalism to the safari. But Renius and I have been together ever since then, our, our lives have changed that they've evolved together. People often ask why, why did you and re get, get along so well? And I've often thought about this and there are two things. One we both love to track leopards. We both loved leopards the animal, and I was so intrigued and so enamored with the tracking skill that I observed in rain. And his ability to produce a beautiful leopard sighting from a very obscure little pug mark on the ground two hours later.
And he was very open to teaching me and he could see that, that I wanted to learn his side of the job. I wasn't just interested in taking photographs. Most guides arrive at these game. And their single objective is to meet wealthy people and take beautiful photographs, which is fine and noble. But I was, for some reason, different, I don't know why, but , I used to get bored in the sightings. I never owned a camera. I was more interested in the, pursuing of the track, the tracking process to find the animal. Once we'd found the animal, I was keen to go and find the next set of tracks and, and not sit and watch it in the hot sun.
And then secondly, Renius and I share a very similar sense of humor. He's a fantastic. He's got a great sense of humor. He laughs a lot. He's he's he's a tall man. He's charismatic. He's good looking he's he's just but great fun to be around. He's warm. He's personable. And I'd grown up in a family that I was sent to boarding school very early and in some ways he became a fatherly figure to me as well.
He's, he's old enough to get me outta trouble, but young enough to get me into it. , he's 13 years older than me. And he's got a youth, very youthful persona. And so we had a lot of fun together. We met lots of interesting people, but most importantly, we would wake up in the morning. We would want to go and find fresh leopard tracks, follow and find them. And that was what we lived for for a good eight years. And, we had a number of very interesting experiences, some dangerous experiences, some just, just very memorable ones. And I think those years cemented our relationship very early.
Sue: Now, you've got me intrigued Alex, to think about what the skill of tracking actually involves. cos I, I can get this sense of your desire and curiosity to want to follow a track, almost the journey and not the end point seems to motivate you more from what you're saying. So what is the skill of tracking? What, what are you using?
Alex: So broadly speaking tracking has two components. The one is the study of the animals, tracks and signs. That's very analytical. That's the identification, the interpretation of everything from an insects track to an elephant's footprint. And everything in between. And we want to know the difference between a beetle and a grass hoppers track, a male and a female leopard, a black rhino and a white rhino.
So there's a lot of rational analytical thinking around that component of the tracking skill, the other, and more interesting for me anyway, side of the tracking skill is what we call trailing. That's the following of a set of footprints. Let's take, for example, of a lion, you find the fresh lion footprint and then you set off and you follow that animal's trail of evidence. And you can imagine that animal can walk wherever it wants to it, it may not walk on soft, beautiful sand, like a dog does on the beach. It, I'm not talking about tracking in that way. This animal can walk over stony ground through long grass, thick Bush through water. And, the tracker has to display refined ability for refined observation skills to be able to follow that set of evidence and ultimately catch up and find that animal and view it.
And so, and tracking is for the most part seen by the west as a very mystical magical skill in fact, it is not, it is a legitimate skill, like soccer or cricket or golf. It, it has both a physical and a mental component. With deep practice can be mastered. At least, yes, some people have a greater aptitude for tracking just like people do in every kind of vocation. But the more one practice, the more one immerses oneself in nature and practices tracking the better one can get. And, and you can take people from the city and turn them into a reasonably competent tracker within a year.
Sue: Well, that was gonna be my next question is, , if somebody like me showed up to be in your tracker academy and learning the skills, what would you be looking for in the average person that doesn't do that for a day job? I almost would like to use the word detective. It seems to me there's something about, what's the evidence that is being you're, you're aware of. That's what I'm imagining. I'm imagining intuition and senses come into play here and also a dogged determination because it I'm imagining you're gonna potentially lose the track as you go along. So that's my, that's how I imagine it being what would be the skills for somebody that's the average person with no experience?
Alex: Yeah. I've studied at for many years, the, the, the best trackers that I can spend time within the world. And what I've noticed about the top, most elite trackers in the world is that they have the ability to balance. Detailed analytical thought with creative holistic thinking set, another way focused thought with diffusive thinking, focus thinking versus diffusive thinking rational versus creative and, and they have an very active imagination, but they are comfortable in the detail too.
And so I'm always interested to try in interviews for our students for tracker academy to try and understand whether. How much of these two areas. Do they have skills in in creative thought problem solving linking, seeking connections? Being aware, the ability to, to quieten the mind and evaluate the evidence as it comes to, as opposed to having predetermined ideas about what an animal's doing or where it's walking.
It's very difficult and it's, it's part of my life's journey to try and understand with people like. Geoff Trickey who, you know from a psychological perspective, what are the attributes? What, what are the competencies? What are the personality traits that make up the best trackers in the world? And, and, and we do understand some of, but there's a lot of work to be done on, on that front.
Sue: I'm wondering if you've got any real life, examples of journeys that you can recollect and share with us. I know when I heard you speak previously, you talked about the story of the lost line cub. I'm sure there are many others. Give us an example of real life. What happens when you're out?
Alex: Yes. Okay. I mean, I can tell that story. Let, let me start with a, another one though. Which is a bit more abstract. Many years ago, Renius and I had these V I P guests at Londolozi and they were there for, for one game drive. Normally people stayed for three or four nights. We had them for one game drive and they rarely wanted to see a leopard they'd flown in on their jet.
They'd come to Londolozi because they'd heard that they have a good chance of seeing a. They put them with Renius and I, but they gave us one four hour game drive to produce a leopard. So there was a lot of pressure on us, but fortunately poor us that morning game drive. One of the other guides had found a leopard that had killed a Bush buck, a small antelope, and there was still the majority of the, the carcass was still in intact.
The theory was that, that animal and that leopard would still be there feeding on its on its meal. And that wasn't far from the camp. So we thought, well, that's, it's going to be easy. We'll just drive them over and we'll go and view the leopard feeding on the Bush buck carcass. We get to within about a hundred meters of, of where this bush buck and the leopard had been found.
And Renius stops me now the trackers sit on the front of the Landover on a little seat on the hood. On the front left hand side of the bonnet of the, of the safari vehicle. He stopped me and he. I think that leopard's gone to have a drink. And, and so I said, yes. Okay. Maybe it was a hot day, but let's just go and check where the leopard, where they found it and go, and, and he said, no, no, let's just stop here.
Let's have a look and see if we can find tracks on the road. Where the leopard has left the carcass and, and gone off, there was a water hole nearby that he he'd remembered there being. And, and so we, we got off the vehicle. I was rushing him a bit because it was hot and I didn't want the guests to be in the vehicle for too long in the direct sunlight.
And we walked a few hundred meters and we couldn't see any tracks of the leopard. So I said, it must be still there. Let's just go back. Let's drive in. And I noticed he. He was dragging his feet a bit, something was bothering him something that was so straightforward and conventional for me, he was not seeing it the same way we get back to the vehicle.
I start to drive off the road now to the right in the direction where the leopard was from the morning. And the next thing a tree squirrel starts to make an alarm. To the left behind virtually now behind the vehicle and Renius spins around on the, on the, on the tracking seat and says, stop, stop, stop, stop the leopards behind there.
I told you the leopard's gone, turn the vehicle around. So, and he was, he was so forceful, and so sure of himself, like he had gave me no chance. Now I could virtually see the tree where the leopard had been in the. You wouldn't let me go there. He said the leopards it's it's gone the other way.
It's it's left the kill. It's gone for a drink. I turned the vehicle around and now we start heading in the direction of this very subtle squirrels alarm call being made. We get about halfway along. He says to me, you see that big Jackalberry tree. He says, head straight towards there. That's where the squirrel was.
And we go a little bit further and he turns around to me again and he says, go faster, go faster. So I said, why? He says the leopards moving. So I said, how, how do you know the leopards moving? He says, listen to the tree squirrel. The tree squirrel is telling us that the leopards, he hadn't even seen the leopard yet.
He'd known now known that the animal was not only there, but what it was doing. Anyway, we drive to this big Jackberry tree. We park no leopard. And I remember a guest on the vehicle says, says, Hey Alex, are we tracking squirrels or leopards . And before I could utter out some stupid answer, Renius clicked. And there that leopard came through the Woodland just up ahead.
And we had an amazing sighting. And so he had he'd interpreted from the squirrel's call that the leopard was there. And then from the pitch and tone. Of when the leopard got up, obviously it heard the vehicle. So it, it felt a bit uncomfortable and sort of it decided it wanted a bit of space and it got up and the squirrel reacted to that.
And that's just an example of the refined skills, the refined observation skills and knowledge of bird, language, and alarm calls that you only get with a long time close association, immersed life in, in nature to be able to make that kind of decision. And I've seen him make those decisions and make those calls again and again, and again, I tell people all the time, there's only one person in, in my life that continues to surprise me after 27 years of working daily with him. And that's Renius Mhlongo
Sue: What a, what a lovely story. What's coming to my mind, Alex, as you're speaking, is something about being in relationship with your surrounding, with the animals, with one another with your guests. What's your sense of what intuiting from that from how you're describing it to me. What would you make of what I've just said?
Alex: Yes, it's an interesting question. It's a great question. You know, nature operates on relationships, the relationship between the rocks, the soil, the trees, the plants. The birds, the animals, everything is in. So in intricately linked, and, and there are relationships there that are ancient and that are fundamental to the success of the system as a whole.
And I have been living in nature long enough to, to witness those relationships and to see how important they are and how clear they are and, and how they do change. If man makes changes to the environment. Nature. Doesn't complain. It simply adapts. And at the end of the, at the end of the day, if our relationship with nature breaks down, we are only gonna do ourselves this favour. Nature will, will, will endure in some form or another. We are the ones that will suffer the most. And I think. From a relationship perspective, there's nothing more rewarding than walking a journey to a deepening relationship, whether with another human being with an animal or a patch of wild land there's nothing real, more rewarding. There are places that. You learn so much about yourself. There are places in Africa that I go to once a year or once every two years. And every time I go back to these places, whether to train trackers or to visit to friends or so on, I see myself in relationship with that place. And I it's like a timestamp.
I can remember how I felt. I can remember what trauma I was perhaps dealing with. I can remember. My emotional state of being, having been in that place a year or two before. And that's only because there's a relationship here. And so I'm learning through my connection, learning about myself, through my connection with that piece of land. And I love doing that. I love going back after having been away for a while because it's immediate. It's like looking in the mirror. As you go there. And that's, that's how I would explain my relationship with some of these beautiful wilderness areas. But of course, relationships with human beings, whether your wife, your husband, a, a work colleague to me, long standing, deepening, robust relationships. Must be the most rewarding thing that we can get involved in. And I I take , the weight of the importance of relationships from what I observe in nature.
Sue: Mm, powerful words that you're sharing Alex. I'm wondering, given that your environment is not the boardroom or the business environment necessarily your workplace that's outdoors and in nature. For those listening to this podcast who may be business leaders, I'm wondering what, what are some of the skills or the qualities that you think they could learn from what you're talking about and your experience in.
Alex: Yes. Well, I'll go back to the track. Some of these master trackers or expert trackers really have unique ways of making decisions and going about their work. And because nature is just wordless. Because the animals that these trackers pursue are wild and cannot be controlled. And because the environment in which they operate is vast, there are no signposts.
There are no algorithms. There are no consultants to talk to. They have to become aligned with the signs that nature is giving them in order to make good decisions. And so. The best trackers in the world make holistic decisions. They are constantly taking in three elements of information when they make any decision.
The, the first is the detail. They're all, they're happy in the detail. As I mentioned early, they're good at the detail. They're analytical people. Secondly, they never make a decision without considering the environmental significance of that decision. So how does that work? So for example, if I'm tracking a lion and I, I can't see its footprints, how do I know where it's gone?
Where, where am I gonna go next? Because physically, you cannot see every single footprint. Because as I said earlier, they've walk on this difficult terrain where footprints are virtually invisible, but they've still gotta stay on track. They've still gotta stay on track. And, and how do they do that?
But one of the ways is that they are constantly thinking about. How is the landscape having an impact on that animal's movements? How is it having an impact on that animal's intentions, its motives. So for example, a hungry lion is going to go towards an area where there are lots of pray. A tired lion is gonna go to water and drink a lion that's looking to link up with the rest of its pride. Will go into neighboring territory, whatever it might be, , the landscape and the inhabitants of that landscape have a profound effect on how that animal moves and how it decides on where to go next. And trackers always take into consideration that impact the impact of the environment.
And then thirdly and almost most importantly, And Renius has a, has a beautiful saying for this. He always says to track, well, you must put the animal in your heart. Said another way you must get in the skin of the animal. And really what that's about is trying to understand that animal's purpose. Trying to understand, understand its central motivating aim for going or doing what it's doing and the answers to the questions around detail, the questions around how that landscape is affecting that animal and the questions around what's its purpose. The answers to those three questions give the tracker color, give the tracker an understanding of the activity going on around him, and then you can make good decisions and business leaders. I think if they would take adopt a similar decision making model could make better, longer term decisions taking in not only just the detail, but how their decisions impact the environment. And ultimately, thirdly, what is the purpose of the decision? A lot of decisions are made. One really giving much thought to what is the greater purpose here. And so that's where I believe that trackers can help business people.
Sue: It's fascinating what you're talking about, Alex. The one thing that strikes me from what you're saying, there is about the use of time. And by that, I'm imagining a tracker must slow down sufficiently to take on board that information in business, sometimes I observe leaders moving very quickly. They get data from technology information and then they make very quick decisions and then they move on to the next thing. So it's all about fail fast and move forwards. My sense is, from what you're describing is it's somewhat different to that in the tracking process. It seems to me to be allowing time for. Observation and thinking.
Alex: Yes, that's that's right. They give themselves time. If I had to answer. Question and with one with one answer would be that they go slower rather than faster. That being said, though, they are, they guided by their environment. So when the tracks are clear, the soil is open. The Bush is clear. There's no immediate danger. They can move faster. But if the checks are, are no longer clear and they obscure, they slow down and they start to look for other information that can help augment. The detail on the ground. If tracks go into very thick Bush, they'll slow down because there's a, the risk element starts to be elevated.
You, you don't wanna walk into a lion with her tiny Cubs in thick Bush and surprise her there. That's very dangerous. And so in many ways, the tracker's time. His, his cadence. Is dictated by the structure of the landscape and what's happening and how much information is available to him. Trackers won't go quickly. If, if it's risky and they won't go quickly, if they don't have all the information
Sue: Yeah, that seems very important you're already giving us so much more in depth insight into what a tracker does and the skills. Have which then leads me on to want to know more about the tracker academy and what that is. And how did you set it up and how do people learn?
Alex: So. When Renius and I were working together as guide and tracker, it became clear to me that Ren could do things, tracking things that other trackers could not. And we started to have a conversation about how do we ensure that this ancient skill is handed to the next generation and that doesn't die out completely when people like Renius eventually retire and bear in mind. Renius is one of the last generations to be raised as along the lines of the traditional hunter gatherer of Shangan people. And so there no more left, no more people that were raised in that same privileged situation as Ren was. And so what's left only is therefore for us to formalize the training of trackers.
In order to restore this ancient African knowledge and skill. And in 2009 Renius, and I resigned from our jobs at Londolozi. And we went into the Chilli wind of unemployment with a dream, a dream to start a school that would do this, that very thing. It would restore tracking skills. And we traveled around the world, funding our passage by teaching tracking in places like north America Australia. India to try and raise money to start the school. And I'm afraid after year of travel, we didn't have a single dollar to show for our efforts and on the beach, back in my hometown, on the coast of Battenberg bay, I remember saying to my mother that I think I need to phone Renius and tell him we need to go and get our jobs back at Londolozi because we had failed.
We really had failed. There's no other way of saying it. As fate may have it. A good friend of mine introduced me to the Rupert family who, who are a very wealth wealthy and influential family in, in South Africa. And long story short, I met Mrs. Gaynor Rupert and and we did some work with her and she agreed to fund and found the tracker academy.
And that was in 2010. And we received our first eight students since then. So we've been going at the end of this year. We would've been going 13 years. We've trained just over 220 trackers. And this is a statistic I'm most proud of. 94% of those 220 are now in permanent conservation jobs. All of whom were unemployed, many without hope.
Living in rural villages, close to wildlife areas, jealously staring through high fences, seeing people driving around and, and viewing animals and staying in fancy lodges. And now 200 of them because they are be trained as trackers are now employed in the conservation industry, either anti-poaching or an eco tourism, animal monitoring and other areas. And so that's the work of the tracker academy. We are an NGO. We are entirely donor reliant. The, the, the, this hyena on my chest here is our logo. I thought by using the hyena, no one would want a hyena as their corporate logo. But it's, it's the, it's the biggest, it's the best tracker in the animal kingdom and it's actually an extraordinarily good caretaker of the next generation. So in many ways it shared the philosophy of the next, developing the next generation of, of trackers in this instance. And it's been people have said to me, which advertising agency helped you develop that brand.
It was just a photograph I took and had it traced onto a shirt. And it's become really, it's become really synonymous with the tracker academy and, and tracking in Africa. And so that's the work of the tracker academy. We've just opened a new division called rhino guardians where we are training trackers specifically now to protect rhino man tracking which, and we are hoping to make a material impact and try to. Reverse the trend of losing rhino in, in Africa. Mm,
Sue: So it's marvelous what you've accomplished in that space of time, Alex, and I think what you're reminding us of is that ancient skills are still valuable in modern day.
Alex: exactly. Right. And that's exactly the point. Sue, this is an ancient skill, possibly a hundred thousand years of old that's that has still got relevance in modern conservation efforts. And as I've spoken to you earlier, I think has relevance in the boardroom too. I think business leaders can learn to adopt the tracker mindset, the tracker mentality.
There's a, a particular process. To tracking a lion that is in no way different to tracking a customer or a strategy or a project. And that that process can be discussed. It can be internalized and it can be used by corporates to better track whatever they are, track, whatever objective they're tracking. And so I think there's a lot that, that the, the modern world can learn from this, this almost forgotten ancient skill of tracking in.
Sue: Well, you know what I want to ask you next? Of course, what's the process.
Alex: Okay, I'll give you a, a brief explanation of the process. The process involves five interrelated activities, and each activity is reinforced by a particular mindset. And these activities sometimes run in parallel. They're not clear cut. That's why, , they interrelated the first step or first activity is to find the right track. So the tracker wants to find the freshest track that that's gonna give him the best chances of success. Getting started on the wrong track can have far reaching consequences. And I think that's true for anybody in any situation.. The mindset. There is a very healthy dose of discernment, a the mindset of discern. In spending time finding the, the right track to follow. I see this with inexperienced trackers, they'll jump off the vehicle and, and want to follow the first line track. They see on the ground, a guy like Renius will pass up two or three opportunities to track lions. He's, he's looking for the, the freshest track. That's gonna give him the best chance of success. Secondly, once you found the track, you now want to start following you. You are literally following footstep by foot. Now that requires refined observation skills. Some, as I said, some tracks are very, are very subtle. You're not only following footprints. You're also following urine marks droppings. Territorial marks feeding signs, all kinds of signs, alarm calls by other animals as in the case, I just gave you so that, and that requires a lot of a curious mindset. People, the most curiosity comes into it there.
And, tenacity, you know, as you said in the beginning of the, of this interview, Sometimes it gets really difficult and you cannot find your next piece of evidence and you've just got to continue. You've gotta per persevere. And you've gotta be extra curious because there's almost nothing that's irrelevant when you're tracking it's, it's all about prioritizing what's most relevant, but it's all relevant. So that's the following you're following until, and you're walking along a, a trail of evidence effectively the next and, and the next activity would be at some point.
The tracker is unlikely to be able to out walk or outpace a lion. At some point, you've gotta close the gap on that animal. You've gotta anticipate and, and leapfrog ahead and try and get closer to that animal and try and. Return on energy. And that requires creativity that requires holistic thinking. And that goes to what I was talking about earlier. That's when you are looking at the detail, you're looking at the animal's purpose, you're looking at how the landscape is impacting that animal's behavior and the answers to those three questions. Give the tracker, the picture mental picture of what's going on.
They can then form a hypothesis of where the animal is and they go and they leapfrog ahead and they test that hypothesis. Remember when you're tracking an animal until such time, you find that animal, you are basically always in beta mode, you're only in, you only really launch once you found the animal. And so that's, it can be quite frustrating, but the closing of the gap is important. It requires a creative mindset, an innovative mindset, an intuitive mindset, a holistic way of thinking. Very much big picture looking at all the data now, looking at all the information and forming a theory about what this animal's doing and then testing that theory and having, and having the courage to do so.
But like anything you track in life, at some point you're gonna go off track, you're gonna lose the. That is just inevitable. I don't think I've ever tracked a lion or any animal for that matter where at some point we haven't lost the trail altogether. And that requires a lot of courage to confront the facts that I've now I'm off track.
A lot of trackers will pretend to track a lot of people pretend to go on. And so. You need to be bold. You need to be you need to be very aware of your mental biases about what, what you're doing, what information is is important to you and what you're seeing. But trackers make use of two very logical, very basic methods to get back on to regain a lost track.
One is either you go back to the last point, you were on track and start again this time with extra care for the detail. Or you decide, you know, I've been on this trail for long enough. I have a good sense of where this animal's going and I'm going to anticipate I'm gonna leapfrog and, and I'm going to back myself to be able to cut the tracks up ahead some and that's speculative and better trackers get quite good at doing that when they lose the trail.
But the, there there's a whole mindset around losing track. Lot of people when they lose track in life, They become despondent or they become angry or they want to assign blame. The tracker never does that. He is 100% accountable to losing that track. He simply goes back and goes again, a he has the courage and the honesty to confront that he's off track and B he's gonna look at the detail he's gonna, he is gonna make assessments based on.
And he's gonna go again and he's gonna be tenacious. And then the fifth element is if you've done all this well enough for long enough, you'll hopefully have an encounter. The encounter is the final activity where you finally find that animal or that objective, or that goal that you set out to track and find, and that's important, the encounter is essentially a trust building opportunity.
When you find that lion you want that encounter to go well, you don't wanna upset that lion because it can either come and do, do physical harm to you, or it will turn around and run away and you lose your relationship with it. You'll lose your encounter with it. And so you want the encounter to go well, because if the encounter does go well, it sets up greater opportunity for future tracking success.
And the mindset around the count encounter is one of gratitude and respect. And so really those are the five elements of the tracking process, the five interrelated activities and what's most important there. Is getting the mindset right at the various phases of the tracking process. And, what I've just explained to you, we call the tracking success pathway and we've applied the pathway many times in business and it's, it's astounding. How many people, how you can use it and you can make use of it to track and find whatever is important to you in your life, or indeed make sense of what's going on around you in.
Sue: Well, I'm glad I asked you that question, Alex, cuz you've just given us so much rich information about the process and I'm sure for our listener who may not be in the world that you inhabit if they're in the world of business, they can think about how that applies to them. Finally, since we are called the access to inspiration podcast, I'm wondering who or what inspires you.
Alex: Nature inspires me, animals inspire me. Many conservationists inspire I'm I'm inspired. I'm inspired by a man called Dr. Ian player who passed away sadly a few years ago, who started the wilderness leadership school. And he had a wonderful relationship with a Zulu man called Magqubu Ntombela and, and I really do look up to his work.
He was, he was instrumental in saving the rhino from extinction in South Africa in the 1960. And, and he was instrumental and reversing that trend. And here we are, you know, 60 years later back at it. And so I often I've re reread his books. I'm also inspired by a man name of Dr. Ian McCullum. Who's a, the mentor of mine. Who's a psychiatrist. a conservationist a poet and a wonderful man who sees the, the value of nature in all of our lives. And and so, so I, I'm not sure if I have a single person, but there's, it's an array of people and, and, and experiences.
Sue: Well, you've wonderfully role modeled. In a way, the intention of our podcast as a whole, because we aim to bring a diverse range of guests for our listeners. And I think you're describing in a way that same similar approach one person isn't necessarily the only. Person that can inspire us. We can all take learning and that inspiration from different places. I've learned so much from you today, Alex, and if our listener is enjoyed this conversation as well, how might they find out more about you and the work that you do?
Alex: I'm involved with three websites. The one is Alex and ren.com. That's reus in my personal website and a blog. Then we have tracking success.tv, it's a virtual adventure we've created where we, we take people tracking. We take, we take corporate senior executives and corporate groups tracking in the boardroom virtual. And we put them in the boots of an actual expert tracking team. And we asked them to make the same decisions that the trackers had to make on the day. And those decisions have consequences. You can read all about that on tracking success.tv. And then of course, the tracker academy, NGO is trackeracademy.co.za. That's a, a website dedicated to the work of the academy.
Sue: Wow. We'll put links to all of those things on our show notes. It's been a wonderful conversation with you today, Alex, I've learned a lot by what you've said, and certainly I'm gonna go off and think about how I engage with the wider system around me in a completely different way, thank you so much for your time.
Alex: It's a great pleasure. Thank you so much, Sue. Thank you for having me.
Sue: Well I hope you enjoyed this episode and its given you some new insights and cause to reflect and think. Remember you can read a transcription of this and all our other episodes on our website at accesstoinspiration.org We will be back in mid-January next year with a new series and in between now and then we will showcase some of our earlier episodes for you to enjoy once again. I hope you stay connected with us.Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra (he/him)
Producer: Sue Stockdale (she/her)
Nic Parmaksizian talks to Sue Stockdale about his role as Global CEO of Designit and why he is passionate about creativity and innovation. He outlines how leaders can create environments that encourage innovation, and why ambidexterity is needed to be able to focus on both profitability today and tomorrow.
An accomplished global business executive, Nic is known for his strategic, visionary thinking. His contagious entrepreneurial approach and humanity-centred work methodology have contributed to an impressive track record of industry-leading transformational change in the areas of technology innovation and human behaviour.
In 2022, Nic joined Designit as CEO and was previously Head of Digital practice at the global technology and management consultancy Capco, a Wipro company. During the eight years that he headed the digital department, Nic built a renowned digital innovation team that challenged the norms to deliver highly successful digital transformation strategies for financial services around the world.
Connect with Nic Parmaksizian via LinkedIn or Designit website
This series is kindly supported by Squadcast –the remote recording platform which empowers podcasters by capturing high-quality audio and video conversations.
Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report Key Quotes I have a very associated mind. So I connect things and I try to find patterns. I still try to make sure that I can still tap into that little voice, that intuition to help guide me when I come to make decisions. There needs to be a clear mandate from the top of a business that innovation is a priority and that leadership will create an environment where people, have the time, the opportunity and the safety net that they need to be able to innovate. Innovation is not just about coming up with ideas. It's also about following up on those ideas and making sure that's they land and there is execution behind them. Do your day job, but also think about tomorrow. The leader can find themselves in this sort of parent child relationship, and I've tried to make sure that, we are talking as equals as adults. As a leader, what I try to do is lead from the front, lead by example, role model the behaviours that I would want to see from everybody else. You need ambidexterity between profitability today while thinking about your profit for tomorrow. And I find that sometimes one can compromise the other. I find it very important from a wellbeing point of view to give people access to learning. Nic Parmaksizian Transcription Sue: Hi Im Sue Stockdale, your Access to Inspiration host. This is a podcast with a social mission to help you be inspired by people who may be unalike you. As always we hope their experiences and insights cause you to reflect on your own perspectives about the world. Well my guest today in episode 88 is Nic Parmaksizian, Global CEO of Designit. Nic explains to me how leaders can create environments that encourage innovation, what he does to create an amazing place to work for the creative talent in his organisation and also what he would like to be designed for the world. Welcome to the podcast, Nic. It's great to speak to you today.
Nic: Thank you for having me. Sue it's really great to reconnect with you.
Sue: There are two words that really remind me of you Nic, one is creativity and the other is innovation. And I think they've been the threads that have woven their way through your career to date, both in terms of businesses that you've worked in and focused on, and how you lead. At least that's the sense I get. I wonder if you would agree with me or not.
Nic: Yes. Certainly, I think creativity and innovation have been passions of mine. They've been certainly when it comes to creativity and imagination, they've been constants in my life as far as I can remember. You know, I grew up in a relatively artistic household and family, and where I think imagination was always encouraged. And so that really stayed with me where I've always needed to think big ideas and create.
And I can't really tell you that it was part of a plan. But this creativity that essentially is turned into active innovation work and helping clients really transform their organizations and transform their markets by leveraging the power of ideas to innovate has actually become my reality today. And it's been the case for a number of years, as you said Sue. So yes, I would agree with you. But I wouldn't say that was ever part of a plan. I think things naturally evolved in this way.
Sue: it's funny how you're describing that, sounds like it was an emergent career to date.
Nic: It sort of really is. And I think the beauty of hindsight is being able to look at things and the choices you've made and not necessarily understand why you made the choices that you made at the time. But actually I have a very associated mind. So I connect things and I try to find patterns. And when I look at the choices that I made, which often were against what people thought would be the rational option. The big picture sort of makes sense to me and I can see how all of those elements and career choices and roles that I've taken have really contributed to having this sort of narrative around creativity and innovation and imagination. And you know really talking to people about tapping into their intuition, because intuition and gut for me have been as you know, I think you and I have had a coaching relationship. Intuition and gut have kind of been omnipresent with me as well in my decision process. And as a CEO now of a relatively large business. And I'm being surrounded and made sure to be surrounded by rational people can advise me. I still try to make sure that I can still tap into that little voice, that intuition to help me guide when I come to make decisions.
Sue: You also mentioned the word rational there, Nic. And I think you and I met first when you were operating in the banking sector, which is perhaps not one that would spring to mind. First of all, thinking about creativity and innovation, when you've worked in sectors that are more traditional in their thinking, how have you encouraged people to use their imagination, and to think about what's possible?
Nic: Yes. And that's why, I often get hired is to essentially facilitate that process. And you talk about financial services this is an industry where people are essentially incentivized to managing risk and profitability and making the right investment decisions and, and certainly you are asking them to start to think outside the box and really think big ideas to drive breakthrough innovation in order for you to compete with this emerging FinTech industry that's been obviously been competing with traditional banks. That is not easy and there are a number of things in my experience that need to be in place.
Number one there needs to be a clear mandate from the top that this is a priority and that leadership will create an environment where people, number one will have the time, but number two, will have the opportunity and the safety net that they need to be able to innovate.
The third thing that needs to be in place and this doesn't happen at the individual level. I mean, most of the time, those individuals, those bankers come together as part of a team or a pod through the course of a project or an engagement. And again, I think really getting that team to norm and perform is, is really critical. So, team dynamics and multidisciplinary teams is often one thing that gets discussed in the innovation literature, but having people coming together with different backgrounds and different agendas and different experiences, while it makes sense on paper in practice can be very challenging and it's very helpful for people to sort of step out of, their day to day job and start to think on behalf of the user and on behalf of the customer. So again, all are things that need to be in place for you to really create an environment that is conducive to innovation. Because innovation, as you know, is not just about coming up with ideas. It's also about following up on those ideas and making sure that's they land and there is execution behind them.
I have clients who, and actually banking clients who unfortunately are caught into this prototyping wheel where they will basically spend a lot of efforts and investment in some instances. I have a client that has 90 prototypes, nine - zero prototypes running a year, but nothing ever get to market.
And so making sure that you have the entire end to end process in place for innovation is critical. And having all of those elements in place from a leadership point of view, from a team, from an organizational behavior point of view is also critical. And I often talk about the necessity of as leaders and as practitioners to almost have this ambidexterity of being able to do your day job, but also think about tomorrow. While the decisions that you might make today might not be aligned with the decisions that are required for tomorrow, still being comfortable in navigating those tensions. And that again, I think requires coaching. It requires supports and it requires an environment and an organisational climate that is supportive of that. And that's one thing that obviously in my experience, at least financial organisations have struggled with.
Sue: Now, given that it may be more challenging in the financial services space to introduce innovation, now that you're global CEO of Designit, I'm imagining therefore you've got much greater influence on how you introduce innovation and disrupt. How do you as a leader, go about encouraging the very thing that you want to have happen in your own organisation?
Nic: I basically role model the behaviours that I know are to be critical for an organisation to be able to innovate, starting with being myself so being authentic in my leadership, talking the truth and being transparent. Sometimes a leader can find themselves in this sort of parent child relationship, and I've tried to make sure that, we are talking as equals as adults and are doing the right thing to the business.
So again, role modelling, being authentic being able to have the right conversations, presenting the facts and being transparent around the choices that we are making. And as I was saying earlier, creating an environment that is conducive to thinking, fresh ideas by providing that time and capacity, but also the safety of being able to to think differently.
I think also the point I was making around the power of teams, making sure that you are doing everything you can as a leader to remove the blockers that might be in the way of collaboration. I often encourage colleagues from different countries, different studios from Stockholm to Madrid, for example, or Tel Aviv to Tokyo to come together and really collaborate to the benefit of a client or the benefit of an idea.
As a leader, what I try to do is lead from the front, lead by example, role model the behaviors that I would wanna see from everybody else. And I very much see my role as an enabler. So I often say to the team, I work for you as a matter of fact, you know, I'm the CEO, but you pay my salary. So I'm here to empower you.
I'm here to make sure that I remove the things that hold you back, that might hold your creativity back and really kind of free to be themselves and to do what they do best, which is to create. I often find that, for example, there's sometimes nothing wrong. There's nothing worse when you are putting a creative person into the wrong role. So certainly in my experience in the past, you know, I've had creative directors moving into management roles. And it was almost, the wrong choice for them in the sense that that was not necessarily the best fit. And they were also getting frustrated for not being able to create. So having the right people in the right roles and making sure that everybody has a platform to be able to create is very important. And this is what I try to do in my role today as CEO of Designit.
Sue: And I think you're describing it very clearly for the listener there in terms of what, you have to see it, to be it. And if you're role modeling, that's an important thing for the employees, for those that haven't come across, Designit before. What does the company do? And I'm wondering if you can give us some example of the types of successes that you've had?
Nic: Yes, absolutely. So we are an innovation and design agency and we work with some of the most well-known brands around the world and across many industries. So whether it's in the hospitality, aviation industry, healthcare or life science industry, or financial services, we really help clients not only reinvent products, but critically reinvent experiences as well. So for example, we work with a well-known pharmaceutical company around redesigning the experience as well. For example, for some of the client for example around the ALS disease, the motor neuro disease we've also worked in the product space again, in the pharmaceutical sector, in developing the next generation insulin pen.
We work with financial services sector to be launching new digital features that help the mass market, individual get access to investment advice that would perhaps be more dedicated to another segment in the past. We work with the aviation industry to reinvent the passenger experience. So there's a huge amount of creativity that goes into hopefully, really shaping a better world as well through the power of our ideas. So we're trying to be very true to our purpose, which is to ignite shared progress. We make sure that we invest our creative time and energy in industries and sectors and projects that sort of make sense and align to our values as well. And we always have sustainability at the hub of what we do. So again, from a design point of view, making sure that our products, services, experiences have built into sustainability as well.
Sue: It's interesting that you say that, Nick. It's bringing into the conversation for me, purpose as well as profit and having the world as a stakeholder for some of the things that you're doing. Is that the way that you'd be thinking?
Nic: Absolutely. I think and I often need to remind myself and remind the teams as well that, we are in this for the long run, and so this is a marathon. This is not a race, we are not going after quick fixes when it comes to profits. When it comes to revenue growth, I think it's really about investing into the future by making the right choices when it comes to clients, work that you can be proud of because that work will then help you attract the Next generation talent that you need, as well as bring the type of clients that you want.
So it's a fine balance. Obviously, you know, you want to be financially independent. You want to be able to control your own destiny from a financial point of view. But at the same time, it's a balance with doing the right thing, choosing the right work building those products and services that you want to be proud of, that you can use as references for the future. I think to me this point about again, back to the ambidexterity between profitability today while thinking about your profit for tomorrow is very important. And I find that sometimes one can compromise the other.
Sue: I'm wondering if that means that you ever say no to taking on client work.
Nic: Absolutely we do actually. There are some sectors that we won't be working with like, for example, the tobacco industry. So we actually have internally a team that holds me accountable as a CEO. And that team is made of colleagues from all levels to make sure that the decisions that I make and the rest of the leadership makes in terms of the clients that we choose to work with and the projects that we aim to win are aligned with purpose and values.
I think. For that team to represent 900 people across all levels and cultures is very important to us because, our most important asset are our people and our brand, brand and reputation. So we wanna make sure that, our people are proud of the work that they do, and that's reflecting the way people perceive your brand externally and your reputation.
Sue: It's interesting that sometimes it's as much about what you choose not to do as much as what you choose to do that can make the difference. You've mentioned there again about the importance of people within the organization and I'm just wondering in terms of this current theme for the series for us is around health and wellbeing, I'm wondering if there's anything explicit that the organization does to support the health and wellbeing of its people, so they can be at their best and be creative and innovative?
Nic: yeah, that's obviously top of mind, especially following the hard years that we've had were beyond the risk of being infected by a virus. There is obviously the whole anxiety and stress that comes on top of it. And so for us having flexibility in the way people choose to work is very important. Most of our work is done virtually. I mean, we do have 15 studios around the world and if people choose to do so, they can obviously meet and get together. But at the same time we absolutely are encouraging. Like our people are in North America, for example, most of them are working virtually so much so that we don't really use those studios there. That's number one. Again, from a wellbeing point of view giving people access to learning, I find is very important. It's all very well to be coming in and, and doing your work, but especially with creative people, I find that providing great learning opportunities is really important.
So, and that goes into your wellbeing. I feel that I'm learning, I feel that I'm developing myself, there's nothing worse than feeling, like being stuck. And so making sure that people have those learning opportunities is very important to us. I think the third thing is for so for our top talent, what we are also trying to do is we give them the Friday to be able to follow an interest and a passion of theirs. Because we believe that those interests and those passions will in turn benefit the rest of the organization as well. When they turn into a point of view or they turn into an asset, they turn into prototypes. So we try to give people the time to the point about innovation, time to be able to think, to be able to reflect and to be able to in turn innovate. I think that goes into this feeling like I'm adding value, I'm contributing, I'm able to follow interests and passions of mine, which in turn helps with your wellbeing and your mental health. So those are things that come to mind to me when I think about wellbeing for our employees.
Sue: Now if any of our listeners are senior leaders in organizations and they're thinking, Oh, well Nic, that sounds fine, but I can't afford a day's worth of my employees time to work on something of their own interest. What would you say to skeptics listening that don't currently think the way that you do?
Nic: First of all, it's not like the whole organisation, right? So what we've done is we've very much created this scheme as I suppose an incentive for our top performers. So our top 20% will sort of get access to this scheme. But what I would say is that your people are your best assets and you wanna invest. When you think about all of the marketing investment you could be doing to building your brand, when you think about all of the time you might be spending haphazardly to develop a new point of view or a new asset being actually quite structured about it and saying I need this no matter what. What I'm selling is intellectual capital. So as an investment, I'm gonna reinvest the time that we need and structure it so that we can actually go to market with something that makes sense, that's aligned with people's interests, passions, and values, which by the way, is often reflective of what the rest of the world is thinking.
I think to me that's just an obvious investment. Plus I often say I'm the worst person to be putting in front of the press. I mean, I'm not that interesting. I think that those people have a point of view are the right people to be talking and to be advocating and to be influencing really the world. Also it's an incredible incentive for our junior colleagues to have access to a platform that enable them to get their voices heard. So I think there is so much in the way of benefiting the organization in turn where people are contributing, and they are contributing by doing something that they are interested in. They have the time for it. They are getting access to a channel that's gonna amplify their voice and point of view. And in turn, people are engaged. It's just, It's great.
Sue: Now you, most of what you've been saying so far has been very much around what you're doing for your people in the organization. I'm wondering about you now, and given that this podcast is called Access to Inspiration, where do you get your inspiration from?
Nic: So I mentioned I think in the start that you know, I have an associative mind. So the way I learn is by being exposed to stimuli in my environment. So whether they are through observation or through reading or through communicating with others, the way I get inspired is by making connections and finding patterns and maybe seeing things that otherwise wouldn't be obvious. Often wonder when I go to an art gallery, why is it that at the opening of a show, 90% of the audience are other artists. Until I have come to sort of realize and actually to be able to create and to get inspired, you need to expose yourself to as many stimuli as possible.
And so I try to do the same. I try to find the time to expose myself to a wide variety. I mean, at the expense of times of my entourage who will accuse me of being a bit hyperactive in that way. And I never seem to be able to rest my mind is always curious to learn and to find out and to question things. So getting access to different pieces of data. I'm actually doing a doctorate as well in parallel because I find, I started it last year and I found that having the structure of an academic program as well helps my mind to learn new things and make associations with the practical reality of my job and the concrete lives that I live. And so that's how I get inspired by connecting things and people.
Sue: Sounds like you're a busy man.
Nic: but you know, I love it. I wouldn't have it any other way.
Sue: And if you could come up with any idea to design something for the world, something that you think we need right now?
Nic: What would I wanna be designed for the world? I mean, I think there are many things in the world that need design input in the way of improving things. I think the whole democratic process, for example, and the way that democracy happens I think to me is a really interesting journey and process that we take for granted. And I think is very much at risk and probably would benefit from being looked at and thought through. So the way we essentially get access to information and the way we as democratic citizens get to cast our votes and how we hold those in power to account as well. I think it's really interesting and I think that design has a great role to play in making sure that there's more transparency, there is more accountability that people find it easy to be able to vote, that they have all of the information that they need to be able to. Make the decisions in terms of casting the democratic voice and being heard. Yeah. So I'm just sort of thinking out loud. But I would love that. So if anyone is a taker, I would love national there. Looking to rethink that, democratic process. Yeah, I think that would be so interesting that also so needed.
Sue: Mm. And finally, Nic, I guess if you were looking back at what you know now and giving your 14 year old self some advice for life, what would be that wisdom that you would offer the young Nic?
Nic: I think don't be afraid to listen to your own voice and your gut suddenly. Being French. The French education system doesn't really encourage you to think in those set up non-linear ways. I think it's all about, being rational and sequential in your thinking. I think it's okay to sense things differently and even if you can't really articulate the why, just being able to go for it because that's how you feel it should be is fine. Cuz there is no bad decision. I think in the end everything sort of makes sense.
Sue: Maybe there's another opportunity for a redesign of the French education system in the future too.
Nic: Well, that was a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much, Sue.
Sue: And if people want to find out more about you and the work that you do, Nic, how might they do that?
Nic: Well, they can certainly connect with me on LinkedIn. So you know, hopefully we'll make this available through this podcast and anyone looking to connect and exchange ideas and always very open to that. So thank you for that opportunity.
Sue: Wonderful. Well, it's been fascinating to speak to you today. You've certainly stimulated my thinking in the conversation, so it's been lovely to speak to you.
Nic: Thank you so much. It was great. Thank you, Sue
Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra (he/him)
Producer: Sue Stockdale (she/her)
Sue Stockdale talks to Dr. Sarah Gilchrist about the subject of sleep. With over 60% of the British population reporting that they have poor sleep quality, and an estimated 1 in 3 suffering from insomnia or sleep deprivation, it’s a topic that has a significant impact on our health and wellbeing.
Dr. Sarah Gilchrist FBASES spent over 20 years working in the high-performance sport industry latterly as a Technical Lead for the English Institute of Sport and Senior Physiologist with British Rowing. Her doctorate specialises in sleep and athletic performance, and she now provides consultancy on a range of performance areas, particularly relating to sleep health. She is on the Advisory Board for the Sleep Charity, a fellow of the British Association of Sport and Exercise Sciences and is High Performance Sport Accredited.
Find out more about Dr. Sarah Gilchrist on Instagram : LinkedIn : Twitter : Website
This series is kindly supported by Squadcast –the remote recording platform which empowers podcasters by capturing high-quality audio and video conversations.
Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report Key Quotes Your Dracula hormone, melatonin only comes out at night, and it reacts to dim light. Insomnia is the biggest form of sleep deprivation in the UK. Throughout women's life cycle, sleep is affected, so it's normal. Have you got a strategy to get good sleep? Most people say, no, I don't think about it. Dr. Sarah Gilchrist Transcription [00:00:00] Sue: Hello, Sue Stockdale here, your host of Access to Inspiration, the podcast with a social mission to help you be inspired by people who may be unlike you. I hope you are enjoying our series on the theme of health and wellbeing. Well, today's guest in episode 87 is Dr. Sarah Gilchrist. She has spent 20 years working in high performance sports, including as a technical lead for the English Institute of Sport and as a senior physiologist with British Rowing and her doctorate specialized in sleep and athletic performance.
She now provides consultancy on a range of performance areas, particularly related to sleep. And I hope today we'll have a chance to learn more about how sleep plays such a vital role for any of us in being able to perform at our best. Remember, you can read a transcription of this and all our other episodes on our website at accesstoinspiration.org.
Welcome to the podcast, Sarah. I know you specialize in sleep, and the first question that springs to my mind is what makes you interested in the subject of sleep?
[00:01:27] Sarah: I think it's just everywhere. Obviously, we all do it. It's universal, and when I was working, my background's in elite sport supporting athletes, I was a physiologist.
And it struck me that sleep was the most significant impact factor on factors determining performance. So it won't directly correlate with an Olympic or Paralympic gold medal. If you have good sleep, you're not necessarily going to win, but sleep will significantly impact on the determinants of performance. Particularly from a physiological psychological point of view, from a public health point of view, we're short on sleep. That's no secret in the media, but also my background supporting athletes. There was a bit of a whole, in terms of the knowledge we had about sleep and athletic performance at the time, it's a lot more known now and it was a really exciting opportunity to investigate that further.
[00:02:16] Sue: So I can see that there is a great need for understanding how we can get better quality of sleep. So we'll get into some of the practicalities of that in a minute or. Maybe we can just begin the conversation by talking a bit more about that professional background of yours, Sarah, and working in high performance sport. What got you interested in that in the first place?
[00:02:36] Sarah: I was always sporty. I was played tennis when I was younger, and I had a real passion for human biology. I loved learning about what made the human body work, so it was a natural combination really, of my interest in sport, watching any sport, participating in any sport, I was always naturally drawn to that.
My mom was a PE teacher, so that probably played a big part as well, and the interest in in the human body and what makes us tick, what makes us work from a physiological point of view. I was interested in the psychology and that interest grew through my career as well because of the multidisciplinary nature in which I worked.
But certainly just the science of how we move, how we exercise, what happens to our body, the benefits to our bodies from doing physical activity and the fact that I was inspired by athletes as well, how to make those determinants of performance even better was an attractive to work in. I was lucky enough that opportunities came my way at a time when I'd finished my post doctoral at university and I got a job with Sports Wales and then the English Institute of Sport after that.
[00:03:42] Sue: And with your job in the English Institute of Sport, did that involve you supporting the rowing team? I understand.
[00:03:49] Sarah: Yeah. So that was why I moved to the EIS so I'm British rowing in collaboration with EIS asked a senior physiologist, and I got that position. So I was also managing the team at Bisham Abbey which is one of the sites of the English Institute of Sports. So I was managing the physiology and all of the staff within it. And also delivering physiological support to the rowing team, which was both in the UK and on training camps. So it was a bit of a, a learning curve management position and out of the country for most of the year. And a new team of people to manage as well, plus all the rowers and coaches to establish good working relationships with, because that was who I was supporting day in, day out. So yeah, it was exciting, but also challenging.
[00:04:31] Sue: And I'm wondering whether sleep played a role in your performance in those days?
[00:04:35] Sarah: Yeah. I often look back on those days and think if I knew then what I know now about sleep, it's quite shocking. Yeah. Coffee played a large part and that of burning the candle at both ends. Late, late nights. The mornings for sure. But the rowers were the ones doing the hard work. They were training, we were there to support them, to enable them to make the boat go faster. Can't complain. They're the ones doing the hard work. They, they've gotta get up and, and deliver the training session.
[00:05:01] Sue: So whether our listener is an elite sports person or somebody in a demanding job, how much sleep do we need?
[00:05:08] Sarah: Generally, it's totally individualized, and that's the thing with sleep. It really comes down to the, the individual person. There are guidelines. So a healthy adults in the absence of a sleep disorder or whether they're an athlete or working, needs about seven to nine hours.. Really the way to establish whether you are getting enough sleep and whether you need seven, eight, or nine, is if you work back from your get up time.
And that's usually your starting point cos it's dictated, it's an anchor point for your day with your commute or school run, whatever it may be. And if you wake up feeling fully refreshed with the alarm, bit groggy, but you're not falling straight right to sleep. You are alerts and productive during a working day, chances are you getting enough sleep, but if not, then chances are you need to probably just readdress it and you need seven, eight, or nine. Or are you one of those people that are an outlier and need a bit more or a bit less? So it is individualized.
[00:06:00] Sue: and when we're getting that sleep, regardless of the number of hours, what's actually happening inside our body when we're sleeping, for us to sleep
[00:06:08] Sarah: within that 24 hour cycle, we do need to rest for a good number of hours. And that's a good question. Why do we do that? Some species don't do that, but, and you would be forgiven to thinking it's a passive process, but the brain is very much active when our heads hit the pillow. There's two physiological processes that help us get to sleep. One being related to our circadian rhythms of our relationship with light and dark, and the other being our sleep pressure, the the drive to fall asleep, which is a chemical buildup in the brain that we essentially flip flop between being awake and being asleep.
And those two processes works logistically to get us to sleep.. And then once we're asleep, it's a bit of a rollercoaster in there. Your brain's doing all sorts of different things, but it is organized chaos. So it's a 90 minute sleep cycle on average, and you cycle through four stages of sleep in that sleep cycle from light sleep, deep sleep, dream sleep, and you cycle through that throughout the night, through your seven to nine hours or whatever it may be that you.
[00:07:06] Sue: So when people talk about taking a power nap during the day, are those power naps good for us? Do they help?
[00:07:13] Sarah: Yeah. Essentially what's happening is you are offsetting that sleep pressure that builds linearly throughout the day and the the nap will offset that. So it will give you a boost if you like to have some more energy for the rest of the day. So the ideal time to nap is that nodding donkey syndrome after lunch the afternoon nadir, where your body temperature drops. Cause that also has a circadian rhythm, typically between two and 4:00 PM That's the ideal time, not the best time if you're in a working environment, but, Perhaps you can have a chat with your employees about that and the benefits of napping and productivity at work for later in the day.
So, yeah, it is good to nap if you've got the opportunity, the motivation, and the circumstances to do so. But napping isn't for everyone. It may be that you don't enjoy a nap, you can't nap, but some downtime will be equally beneficial for you.
[00:08:03] Sue: And would the body go through those four stages of sleep that you described earlier, even in a nap?
[00:08:09] Sarah: Typically not. We tend to suggest that a nap should be 30 minutes or 90 minutes, because then you don't get into the stage three sleep, which is your deep sleep, which is about 45 minutes into that 90 minute sleep cycle. So if you nap for 20, 30 minutes, you're only in sleep stages one. And which are typically lighter sleep stages, so that sleep inertia to overcome when you wake up is much less than if you're in deep sleep.
You would benefit from a nap if you'd gone into deep sleep, but you would feel pretty awful when you woke up and those benefits you wouldn't feel straight away. Whereas that 20, 30 minute nap, you'll wake up, you'll feel alert, you'll feel refreshed. And your sleep pressure has diminished a little bit to allow you that extra energy for the rest of the working day. And then obviously it builds again as you go into the evening and your light dark cycle comes into play then as well.
[00:09:00] Sue: You talk about light dark cycle is reminding me of time zones. Because if we are traveling, we might then adjust our circadian rhythms. I imagine when we're switching through time zones. For somebody like me who does travel internationally fairly regularly, what would your advice be? Or for a listener who may be traveling to a country on a different time zone, how can they best manage their sleep situation?
[00:09:23] Sarah: So there's a few things you can do. Essentially what we're talking about with light and dark and time zones is the relationship between your Dracula hormone melatonin, which only comes out at night, and it reacts to dim light.
It rises in the night, and it helps the precursor to sleep. So when you desynchronized your circadian rhythm in relation to sleep by crossing time zones, so everything gets offset a little bit, it's that relationship with light, dark, and melatonin that you wanna resynchronize. So when you expose yourself to sunlight, melatonin is suppressed.
So if you get yourself onto the new time zone as quickly as possible, and seek sunlight at key times in the day where you wanna suppress the melatonin, keep yourself. And then get onto the normal bedtime as quickly as possible. So seeking the dim lights, bedtime in your new time zone so you're not in a dark room in the middle of the day in your new time zone on day one, cuz you will fall asleep.
It is determined somewhat whether you're flying east or west, but ideally, New time zone, sunlight and meal times. Your appetite has a circadian rhythm and that's a big driver as well to help you resynchronize your body clock to the new time zone.
[00:10:32] Sue: So in terms of appetite, just wanna pick up on that. What should we do about eating then, when we are changing time zones?
[00:10:38] Sarah: Ideally the new time zones, meal times. So it depends how long you're going for, but say it's a, it's a trip and it's a week or two, ideally eat at your time zones meal time. So breakfast or breakfast time, not UK breakfast time, and obviously lunch and dinner. And the first day you might want to have an early-ish dinner and go to bed, sort of nine-ish, but nothing too early that you're then waking up two or three in the morning.
You wanna be able to establish that new routine as quickly as possible. And it's about synchronizing the body clock to the time zone that you are in as quickly as possible. Some people will respond quite easily. Some people it'll take a while. It's usually a day per time zone crossed. So that's why Australia and New Zealand, it could be 10 or 12 days, whereas somewhere shorter European travel, you might not notice so much.
[00:11:27] Sue: I love what you said about the Dracula hormone. I'm gonna keep that one on my mind. Now , just thinking back to your sporting days, when you were working with Olympic teams, did direction of time zone traveling play a role in where teams traveled to competition?
[00:11:40] Sarah: Yeah, sure. So I remember quite a long time ago now, the rowing team had the world championships in New Zealand and we flew via LA because is the best way to fly around the globe in terms of jet lag, I mean, obviously you're still gonna be jet lagged, but in order to give yourself a performance enhancement, it's better to West's best.
[00:11:57] Sue: Turning our attention back to the British population, I know you've got some statistics about the number of people that suffer from insomnia or sleep deprivation. What can you tell us about that?
[00:12:08] Sarah: Insomnia is the biggest form of sleep deprivation in the uk, and it's about 60% of the population can suffer at any one time. There are other forms of sleep deprivation, but insomnia is the key one, and that's typically where you are having trouble getting to sleep. or waking regularly throughout the night and having trouble getting back to sleep, usually for three months or more, or their clinicians would advise you, seek advice sooner than that.
Three months is a long time to be struggling with your sleep like that. And we also know that women are more likely to suffer insomnia than men, particularly as we get into later life and hormone transitions, menopause kicks in. So yeah, certainly insomnia. A big one in terms of sleep deprivation, but also periodic limb movement, restless leg syndrome. Other sleep disorders women can tend to suffer from more so than men, particularly in later life. And given then that the impact of insomnia may affect women more than men.
[00:13:06] Sue: From your experience, Sarah, and I know you've done a doctorate specializing in sleep and you're continually researching this subject, what would you offer as advice to women to perhaps help them get a better quality of sleep?
[00:13:20] Sarah: I think to recognize the fact that throughout women's life cycle, sleep is affected for a start. So it's normal. So we have significant hormone transitions in a woman's life, whether it be puberty, pregnancy, or perimenopause. Menopause. We are also more susceptible to pain because of the hormone interaction, estrogen and pain receptors.
And we're also more likely to work shifts in certain industries. So healthcare industries, things like that. So accepting sleep for women can be affected is the first thing. And then seeking, maybe you need pain management advice perhaps during your menstrual cycle if you're suffering from painful periods and they wake you up.
So seeking pain management from your gp, maybe during perimenopause menopause, it means that you need some cognitive behavioral therapy to help with insomnia. That's got a really strong link, positive link in helping with insomnia. Or it may be that you need some psychological input for depression anxiety that's linked perhaps to perimenopause menopause.
It may be that you need some hormone replacement therapy, and again, it's seeking advice from your gp. So it's sign posting to clinical input. Women are also more susceptible to weight gain in later life, which can lead to sleep disordered breathing, and again, that needs a clinical intervention. So seeking advice from your GP if that's the.
[00:14:41] Sue: Now given I'm sure that many of our listeners are also men , is there anything particular that men should pay attention to?
[00:14:48] Sarah: Well, men and women can obviously suffer from stress, but there is a strong link between mental health, stress work, particularly in men in later life, perhaps in leadership positions.
And that's not say that doesn't happen for women too, but. Also when men, later life perhaps get the weight gain, there's also a link then with sleep apnea, which is, which is a form of disordered breathing when you're asleep. And also increased urination at night because of perhaps an enlarged prostate. So, you know, there are clinical interventions that can help with that, but obviously you need to seek advice from your GP in first instance.
[00:15:21] Sue: So it does seem like it's a pretty important area of health and wellbeing that we maybe don't give enough attention to at times.
[00:15:29] Sarah: Yeah, that's true. There's no physiological system in the human body that isn't enhanced by good sleep or impaired by poor sleep.
And this is why it's the crux of my doctorate. It's the significant impact factor on our health and wellbeing, physical and mental. You can have good nutrition, you can have good exercise, you can have good social and family relationships. All of those are. They're critical and obviously important, but if you've got poor sleep, it doesn't matter if you eat well, it doesn't matter if you exercise, they're gonna be affected by the fact that your sleep is impaired. So it's the number one. I would say, you know, in terms of a pillar of health,
[00:16:03] Sue: if I went down the shops today, I could buy a whole bunch of so-called aids to sleep. I could get myself a comfortable bed. Maybe I could get some tech to measure the amount of sleep I'm getting. From your perspective, Sarah, what are some of the different routes that we could be considering to improve the quality of the sleep that we're getting or just to be aware of it in a better way?
[00:16:24] Sarah: The first thing is to consider your strategy to get good sleep. Have you got a strategy to get good sleep? Most people say, no, I don't think about it. Just go to bed. So that's the first thing. So thinking about your strategy, what's that gonna involve? Hopefully a routine around your sleep, which on the whole you should try and achieve.
But be pragmatic. Life gets in the way sometimes your sleep system. So your bed, your pillow, your mattress. Particularly in relation to women menopause and hot flushes, having the right texture of clothing, for example, the right bedsheets, if you're particularly prone to night sweats, that's that can be particularly important.
But for anybody, a comfortable bed neutral spine, not too hot. Ideally the room 18 to 20 degrees, so a cool, calm environment. Blackout blinds, eye masks, earplugs if you need them. And trying one thing. Don't try everything cause you never know what's gonna work. Perhaps some gentle psychological techniques, mindfulness, breathing techniques, C B T if you particularly prone to insomnia.
And also then talking strategies. Journal writing is proven to be quite popular. And then you've got the technology side as well and the gold standard of measuring sleep. Poly sonography in a laboratory, which is the electrodes on your head and and your eyes. Now obviously that's not practical for most people and the sleep gadgets that are out there are good to a point.
They're not validated, most of them against PSG, against the gold standard. , but they will recognize a change. So if you are trying to increase your sleep from six and a half hours to seven hours, say, and you wanna do that by five minutes a night? Cause we're talking about behavior change, it might be quite chart to suddenly get an extra hour sleep.
So 10 minute increments over a week, for example, would help. So those gadgets will help you ascertain if you've made a positive change in relationship to your. But I wouldn't get hung up on the data. The ones that provide the sleep architecture data, the 90% REM sleep versus 10% non rem, I wouldn't read too much into that because you really need to be in a sleep laboratory hooked up to the electrodes to get a gold standard measurement of that.
[00:18:30] Sue: So you're saying that gadgets could be of some value, but not to rely on them too heavily?
[00:18:34] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
[00:18:35] Sue: I almost want to put the question to you, Sarah, then. What do you use as your strategies to get good sleep.
[00:18:41] Sarah: What do I use my strategy? Professor Colin Esbe from the University of Oxford gave a really good positive outlook on sleep in the sense that there's five principles of sleep and that you value it and you protect it.
Personalize that sleep window. Trust that sleep is a natural process, and then prioritize your sleep as well. So make it part of your week that it's like if you've got a busy week, but on the whole, you're gonna get that sleep routine in three outta four days. Or if children are ill or something happens, be realistic about it. So I, I wouldn't say that I spend money on something, it's more those five principles. Try to adhere to those as much as you can, and on the whole, your strategy for good sleep health will be a positive one. Those really are the five values I live by and in relationship to my sleep.
[00:19:30] Sue: It's wonderful to know that you apply what you're helping other people with to your own situation and prioritize that sleep for yourself too.
[00:19:37] Sarah: Try to on the whole. Yeah, definitely.
[00:19:40] Sue: Given that the world seems to be only getting busier, we are in that always on environment. We have technology, probably our phones glued to our sides for most of the time. Given that environment, what can we do to recognize that whilst also recognizing the impact it has on us as human beings when we don't get good quality.
[00:20:01] Sarah: Yeah, I think a lot of that is generation said, teenagers these days, they've never not known the internet. There is so much to process. If you're at work, even working from home, you're on calls, virtual calls, there's information coming from our phones. The technology has enabled us to be innovative in so many ways, but it also has disabled us to switch off, to have our downtime to have a nap or get to bed at a decent time on a regular basis. And that exposure to light prevents is the sleep robber light, is the sleep robber, because it prevents some melatonin levels rising. So that exposure. To data on your phone, the tv in the bedrooms, the laptops in the bedrooms, all of that is diminishing our ability to get good sleep as well as the self responsibility.
So we have to take the responsibility to acknowledge if we wanna get good sleep health, we need to get to bed at X amount of time. That works for us. For most part of the week, not to be a fun sponge, especially after the last couple of years. We need to socialize, we need to go out, we need to see people.
It's very important, but it's having that, that balance. And I don't like to use the term work life balance because that suggests a conflict between the two. It's a collective, it's a pot of energy, and your sleep will impact on your ability to use your energy in the places it needs to be used. So yeah. Gone off on a bit of a tangent, a little bit of rant about it there, but definitely the technology is good and it has its place, but we have to take responsibility in how we use the technology in relation to our sleep health.
[00:21:36] Sue: What your comments are conjure up in my mind, Sarah, is we have role models for many things in our world. What I'm wondering if we do have or are missing are role models who talk up and demonstrate the value of having sufficient sleep. What would you say to them?
[00:21:55] Sarah: Yeah, I think in my previous working environment, definitely there were athletes that totally understood the value of sleep and the younger developing athletes coming through, they would talk about, well, I was making sure I get good sleep and all that.
Occasionally you will hear athletes talk about that in the media, but they tend to be from niche sports. I think probably in somebody like Andy Murray may have mentioned it in the past and stuff, but you won't necessarily get like the big sports, like the football or the rugby talking. Their sleep as a significant part of their recovery and preparation for performance.
And again, you probably wouldn't get that in the media in terms of celebrities doing that either, you know, so, so somebody that young people would look up to. So yeah, I think you're right. I've never really considered that outside of the sporting environment before. But no, I don't think there is necessarily leading examples of good sleepers.
In terms of role models, there's certainly people out there from an academic point of view, but they're not necessarily the people that generations that are gonna listen to, for example.
[00:22:58] Sue: So maybe there's an opportunity there somewhere to tell the stories and share the role model messages of people who are seeing the value of good sleep.
[00:23:04] Sarah: Yeah, I think you're right.
[00:23:06] Sue: If you were to leave a listener with a top tip or some pieces of advice, what are, of all the things you've shared with us today would be the number one to focus on.
[00:23:14] Sarah: I think consider their sleep. So if they're having a problem with their sleep, consider, maybe it's something really obvious.
They live somewhere noisy or the street lights, or maybe they're doing shift work and they need some input there and have a dialogue about. So that they perhaps have a dialogue with their GP if that's not necessary, or they have a dialogue with their partner if they're working shift work and it's waking each other up, all that kind of thing.
It's like consider your strategy to get to sleep and to achieve good sleep health, because that's the first port of call, regardless of what the problem is. If you don't consider it and stop and think about it and think what's going on here, you can't make that change in the first. So it's really valuing it as a factor in one's life. Yeah, prioritizing it.
[00:23:56] Sue: So if people want to find out more about you and the work that you do, how might they go about doing that, sarah?
[00:24:01] Sarah: Various ways. I've got my website, which is gilchrist performance.co.uk. Also on LinkedIn, Sarah Gilchrist on LinkedIn. There's some information on there. There's some articles, there's some sketch notes.
And then also on Instagram, there's Gilchrist performance or Gilchrist. P E R F on Instagram, and that's where we advertise it. Its presentations or sketch notes that I've put out and things like that.
[00:24:25] Sue: Fantastic. Well, we'll make sure we put links to all of those things on the website so people can follow. I think what I'm taking away from our conversation today is getting a different sense of the importance that sleep plays in our lives and the small actions that each of us can take that will make a difference to that, that will help us to get a better quality of sleep. Stop and think about it.
[00:24:47] Sarah: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Small baby steps. That and considering it. Yeah, definitely.
[00:24:52] Sue: So thank you so much for your time. It's been really informative to learn so much more about sleep today. Thank you, Sarah.
[00:24:58] Sarah: You're welcome. Thanks, Sue.
[00:25:00] Sue: Well, thanks to Sarah for her insightful advice on how to get a better night's sleep. Remember, you can keep connected with us on social media, on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Just search for access to inspiration next week. My guest is Nic Parmaksizian global CEO of Design It, who will be talking about how to create an environment that encourages innovation. I hope you can join us then.
Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra (he/him)
Producer: Sue Stockdale (she/her)
Tyrone Mathurin talks to host Sue Stockdale about being a racing driver in Team BRIT, which aims to become the first ever all-disabled team to race in the Le Mans 24-hour endurance race – the most iconic endurance sportscar race in the world.
Whilst riding his motorbike in 2005, Tyrone crashed which caused four nerves to be torn from his spinal cord. During surgery to reattach the nerves, doctors were unaware of a hematoma putting pressure onto his spinal cord and a week later he awoke from an induced coma, paralysed from head to toe. Fast forward to 2022, and Tyrone is behind the wheel at the Silverstone circuit in a specially adapted BMW 118, where previously he had watched Moto GP as a spectator. Tyrone talks about his life growing up, how he endured the challenge of being paralysed, and how he became a racing driver in Team BRIT.
Photos courtesy of Team BRIT. Find out more about Team BRIT on the Website : Facebook : Twitter : Instagram
This series is kindly supported by Squadcast –the remote recording platform which empowers podcasters by capturing high-quality audio and video conversations.
Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report Key Quotes My career really started from a negative to a positive, from having a motorcycle accident to getting the chance to race motor cars. I decided to jump on a motorcycle, and then that's when life went the opposite way for me. My nerves detached from my spinal cord, which caused my right arm to not move. It was a long road to the beginning of my recovery and I was in intensive care for three months. There wasn't a support system there to help you through it, I had to do it myself. I met a guy who was in a wheelchair and he gave me the inspiration to not give up - work hard and you can get through it. I'd never thought I would be actually in the pits at Silverstone doing motor racing. The innovation behind our hand control system puts us on a level playing field. Once we are in a car, the disability goes out of the window. It's my first year as a rookie and we are in the Britcar endurance championship. You’ve got to persevere from what you believe in and over time it will happen. Tyrone (Tee) Mathurin Transcription Sue: Hi, I'm Sue Stockdale, your host of Access to Inspiration, the podcast with a social mission to help you be inspired by people who may be unalike you. We hope their experiences and insights cause you reflect on your own experiences about the world and make you think. Today's guest in episode 86 is Tyrone Mathurin, otherwise known as Tee, who is a rookie driver in Team BRIT which aims to become the first all-disabled team to race in the Le Mans 24 hour endurance race, the most iconic endurance sports car race in the world. While riding his motorbike in 2005 Tee crashed which caused four nerves to be torn from his spinal cord. During surgery to reattach the nerves doctors were unable of a hematoma putting pressure on his spinal cord which meant he awoke from an induced coma, paralysed. Fast forward to 2022, Tee is ready in the pits area at Silverstone ready to go out on a race. How did that happen, well thats what we will find out today. Welcome to the podcast Tee it's great to speak to you today.
Tee: Thank you. Yeah, Sue, thanks for having me.
Sue: It was interesting that I met you at Silverstone when I was there watching some motorsport and I heard your really interesting story and thought you'd be a great guest for the podcast. I want to start when you were a youngster and you were thinking about motor sport, did you ever imagine yourself doing what you're doing now?
Tee: Not at all. Not at all Sue not at all. As a youngster, it wasn't really something that I felt I could get into or someone like myself from where I'm from. Yeah. It was nonexistent sort of thing. So it was just pretty much a dream.
Sue: When you say somebody like yourself, where you're from, what's your background?
Tee: so I'm from South London, home of the iconic Battersea Power station. And from there, I grew up in a household amongst my two younger sisters. My younger sister's father was present for the most of my youth, most of my younger years. Went school, primary school, secondary, college. So attended an academic year.
Sue: And were you interested in speed?
Tee: As a youngster. Yeah, I was quite interested in motorcycles, pretty much was my first love I was a BMXer, mountain biker, so I was always on two wheels. So it, my first love started from there and then progressed on getting older and, getting onto mopeds. And then progressing higher from there, until the motorcycle. Yeah. And that's pretty much what's started my career really from a negative to a positive and then, from having a motorcycle accident to getting the chance to racing motor cars.
Sue: Well, I also want to get a sense about the reality of life in South London because I think you did face some tough times.
Tee: Yeah, yeah, went down a path of a criminal lifestyle. Not a lifestyle, but what happened is, the pressures of, the, financial constraints of the struggles that we have to go through, you unconsciously think and resort to going down a path of what you're not expected to do. So, just kind of pushes you to going down the wrong road. The lack of opportunities that were there back then it was hard to progress. Financially, I guess, trying to find a job and stuff. And then when you can't find a job or it's not working out for you, I guess you find yourself looking in other corners to further, you know yourself.
Sue: What happened that caused you to turn your life around?
Tee: It took a while, in turning your life around. I guess for me personally, your morals come into effect where, you know, good and bad right from wrong. And as well as that, it's just growing up and maturing and knowing what's right. So for me personally, it wasn't something that I had wanted to do, as a long term thing, doing what I had done, selling drugs it was just trying to get me off from being in a misfortunate position.
Sue: Given that, that was your reality at the time. What happened?
Tee: So what happened there was a court battle. I was going through drugs possession, court case. And then I was out on bail, so we were waiting my court case. And at the time I was signing on at the police station between six and seven on my push bike, and then this one particular day, I think I was late. I would've been late, so I decided to jump on a motorcycle, on a motorbike. And then that's where, the life went the opposite way from me. So, and it was only literally like 10 meters away from where I lived at the time. I was going down the road, saw my mum, went to slow down, and there was a ditch. There's like a drain. It was a drain cover, a defaulted drain cover, and around it the road was defected badly. And then, that was my, my end to being a able bodied person. So, yeah.
Sue: And how long did you then spend in hospital?
Tee: After that, Incident happened on that night. I was in hospital for like two days. Trying to figure out what the problem was. the nurses thought it was a broken collarbone, which there was no signs of that. And then further on, four weeks later, I had an Appointment with a consultant to establish what a problem was, where they, I think they injected dye into your nervous system, and then they figure out the breaks or where whatever's nerves are detached from the spinal cord. And then they realized, or should I say, it was known that my nerves detached from my spinal cord, which caused my right arm to not be moving And yeah, And then a month after that was my operation and then that was the turn for the worst for me after that, which was when I was paralyzed after the operation.
Sue: My goodness. I can't imagine what that must like, how were you feeling mentally at this time? Because it seemed like from driving along on your motorbike to suddenly then finding yourself in hospital and not where you expected life to be?
Tee: yeah. Do you know before the operation I was quite nervous and, and I had the thought to want to just cut from the hospital. Like, you know what, Nah, this isn't for me, Let me leave. But, I still went through with it. Maybe like a week after I must have woke up and was paralyzed. So for me, I didn't think, nothing. The thought of going into hospital, I thought it was just like a broken leg. You know, mended, fixed, out. But then over time it was like, it started doing it on me like, wow, it's not really that. And then once the doctors come around and tell you what really is the case, and see myself in intensive care as well, was the realization for me that, yeah, it's not what it seemed to be just so simple and you know, the doctor saying you're paralyzed. It's like, wow. It's, it's like hard hitter, isn't it? To just take that from being an able person. Well, as a young individual as well. Yeah, it was quite hard to take at first.
Sue: how did you then manage to get through? Did you have family support cuz your life's turned upside down when you realize that, that is your reality, I imagine.
Tee: Yeah. Yeah. My mom, sisters, family friends, Yeah. They were coming immensely. Like, it was grateful for them to still be, you know, show their support and I guess it helped in some sense. I couldn't really talk, intensive care. I was in and out of induced coma.The support was, it was much help.
Sue: now I'm wondering how you get from being paralyzed in intensive care to being a driver for team BRIT. What happened next?
Tee: So from then on, it was, it was a long road to the beginning of my recovery. I was in intensive care for like three months. Went onto the ward for another two, three months before being readmitted to Rehabilitation hospital, which was Stanmore hospital Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital. I think that was all in all eight months period of me being on my back. So, yeah. And then just dealing with the whole mental health, side to it. There wasn't like a support system there to help you through it and what you were going through. Like, I had to do it myself.
It was the family support as well. I guess that kept my mental stable place. But, You know, when you're by yourself and I dunno, just, I think it's just me, myself, I was always, just had been a good natured person and always had high hopes for myself, but I dunno what kept me going, but something kept me going. While I was in the rehab hospital, I met someone while doing my physio, Cause we had physio sessions like in intervals. On a daily basis we had scheduled appointments where we had classes throughout the day and then I met a guy who was in a wheelchair and he passed his rehab and he was doing his outpatients and he kind of gave me a talk and wrote down, Look, listen, this is what it is. And gave me the inspiration that inspired me to not give up and just work hard and you can get through it. So, after seeing that and seeing what he had gone through being in the wheelchair, how he gets about driving how he drives. So me seeing all that from there, thinking, you know, life was hard to not being so hard. There was no one to look up to from a disability side of things, so. There was no base to build from other than just to be okay with me being alive. You what I'm saying? So from seeing that, from hearing what he had to say, it, gave me a sense of hope and belief to yeah, things can happen.
Sue: As that recovery then continued,
Tee: Mm-hmm.
Sue: how did you find out about Team BRIT?
Tee: As that continued, it was a long time after that, good few years after that after leaving the hospital, I was still interested in bikes. I was still watching motorcycle racing on a TV Moto GP. I was quite an avid fan. 2011 I went to Moto GP. Qualifying round on on a Saturday at Silverstone 2011, it was a birthday present from previous relationship, and I'd never thought I would be actually in the pits myself, at Silverstone doing motor racing. But It was one day I was just, like, No, I need to get back on the bike, or I need to get back. I'm doing something. And I was on the internet just surfing, surfing for a conversion for a quad bike. course I couldn't get on a motorcycle, but the next best thing was a quad bike. So, I was only internet surfing and then come across Team BRIT. So then I was like, Okay, track. Track day, eyes wide open, like yes.
Wow. Track day. And that's all I thought was just a track day experience that they were advertising and then sent an email. And then Dave Player, team principal emailed me back and then said, Yeah, do I wanna race? So I was like, Huh, race?
What you mean race? He's like, Yeah, do you wanna be a racing driver? I was like, What? And then from then straight away it was like, what do I have to do? How do I get into it? And then, yeah, it just went from there. And you know wide smile and I'm here now.
Sue: What a transformation and in terms of driving a race car. Are there any adaptations that are made to the car so that you can drive it given your disability?
Tee: Yeah, so what it is, we have a world leading hand control system on a steering wheel, which allows me, myself, and others with disabilities in a wheelchair to still change the gears and use the accelerator and the brake on the steering wheel. So you've got the brake lever, which is the paddle shift on the left and the right accelerator on the right pedal shift. on the front of the steering wheel, you've got two rocker switches either side, either for myself just in my left hand, or my teammate, who's got a similar injury, but he's right hand, so then he can use the right side. But that allows us to change gears, the innovation behind our hand control system puts us on a level playing field. So, once we're in a car, the disability goes out the window. So we're both, you know, with able bodied drivers, we're level, and it's all down to our skill and performance on a day.
Sue: So what did it feel like that first time you sat in that car and, and drove it?
Tee: oh, it was, it was mind blowing at the start of it. Cause you know I haven't got no motorsport experience at all, so. I started in the team academy. Before you get into the academy, you've got an assessment to do to see whether or not you're capable of becoming a racing driver. I had a 45 minute assessment on the sim rig. And then once you pass that, you have various, various hours doing go karting under supervision of one of their experienced drivers. And then once you gone through that assessment and they're happy with, your progression. You are forwarded onto the training program at the academy. And then from there it's like that's, that's the next level to being at the track for the first time. And like I said before, I went to the Silverstone in motoGP at a qualifying and, I was sitting in the stand. And at that time I was in a wheelchair. So then to be further years on, to actually be in the pits and look into where I was, which was at Copse Corner, it was mind blowing, you know, seeing the track, you know, in person front and then being on the track, doing the training. Yeah, it was, it was definitely a dream come true.
Sue: What an opportunity to be able to, to do that and to start to, discover your talent of driving.
Tee: Yeah. Talent. I wouldn't say that, but yeah. Yeah. I guess you've gotta have some talent to be in a position I'm in now, but Yeah, with thanks to our team manager, driver coach, Jamie Fowler, he's got me up to this, this point, so throughout the training, I was a training and hours of coaching thanks to him, the team.
Sue: I'm wondering if that resilience, that you showed recovering in hospital and through your rehabilitation. If that helps you today in your driving, in all the training and the, the things you have to do to keep improving?
Tee: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course. It's, constant improvement to me. Yeah. It's trying to improve every time. It's trying to stay consistent. You know, always want, try and be better so that, that stays with you, similar to being in hospital. The thing is when I was in hospital, I guess, yeah, it's the same I was improving so with my level of progression, every time I was progressing, I'm always working harder and then you get to that next level. So you're always working to every level, you're always progressing, so you never stop. And you're always improving. If you wanna improve, you have to keep working at it.
Sue: And what's the competition that you've been in so far?
Tee: It's my first year as a rookie We're in the Brit car endurance championship, like we're in the trophy.
Sue: So how long does the race last?
Tee: It's an endurance race's its a 50 minute race. And I'm accompanied by my teammate Paul Folick, who drives with me in the 1 1 8 bmw. 25 minutes each. We have to take. So, the first 25 minutes is me or him. We get five minute pit window where we have to to pit in change drivers,
Sue: so you're a team, even within a race, the two of you're taking part in the one car,
Tee: yeah. We're partnered in the one car.
Sue: and in terms of preparing for a race, what sort of preparation do you have to do?
Tee: Yeah. What do I do? Me personally, for me, it's all self. It's not a thing we must. Keep to, but it's just based on, our own personal wellbeing, I guess. It's not something that we're told to do, but personally I keep fit by regularly going to the gym three, four days a week.
As well as that for me personally, it helps my disability. Even before being with Team BRIT, I was going to the gym regularly. And it helps me. Cause if I don't go to the gym, it affects my mobility as my disability I've go. it's like I've got my right leg's weaker than my left leg. So, I've got weak hip flexers. So I tend to pull my leg through with my hips. If I don't work on my lower legs, it affects my mobility where I tend to fall a lot more. So I work a lot more on my legs to, you know, keep me strong on my feet and stop me from, taking a few tumbles now and then. But yeah, I work a lot in the gym keep my physical health up. What else? I try and eat correctly yeah, just to help me in and out the car. So, yeah, that's the only preparation before race days, I'd go over footage, over data to see, over the track, to familiarize myself with the track before, so at least once I get to the track I can just go out on test days and just attack it and, and try and gather the relevant data on what I need to improve on for race day.
Sue: And given that you've raced quite a number of times already as season Tee, what's been the most enjoyable thing you've done?
Tee: On race day, the enjoyable thing. Hmm. We haven't really had enough races due to us having a our car being out of action for a few races due to a track day incident where the car had a massive crash where it put our car out for a few races and had to be, repaired. So it put us out for a few races, but the most memorable moment for racing, maybe our first race at Silverstone, where we had an incident where my teammate, he had a little. Little oof moment at the beginning of the race. And then, the second race we came back from ninth, I think it was back to sixth or fifth. So yeah, that was a memorable moment. Cause you know, I kind pushed myself hard to get us right into the mix of it. So yeah, that was moment for me. Another moment was when we had our sister car. While our car was out being repaired, we had the sister car, which was a Volkswagen Scirocco Rock had a little incident with the with the sausage kerb at Copse Corner. So we damaged the suspension and that was the first time for me seeing like the actual team get to work and do there. So, over the course of that night they were working throughout the whole night trying to get the suspension fixed. You sort, just getting down and dirty. Seeing how they, pulled the stock size was, was amazing to see, the team effort and the teamwork and what, what goes, goes on behind the scenes, but no one don't see. So yeah, that was one in the memorable moments for me.
Sue: And as you look ahead to the remainder of this year and to the future, what are your ambitions? As being part of Team BRIT.
Tee: Oh, still be here, still be with the team. But you know, with our goal on 2024 to be in Le Mans 24 hour, first disabled team to do that. Yeah, that's one thing I'm, I'm looking forward to, but with the team and what we're doing, you, you never know. We're always surprising. Pulling things out surprising, so you'll never know. But I'm willing to be part of whatever's in the futures, you know, the future, future prospects. But yeah, a lot of the congrats and we've gotta thank it all to the sponsor as well. Cause without sponsors. Yeah, we wouldn't be able to be, showing what we can do or, carving away for those with disabilities and in motor sports. So yeah. Well,
Sue: If you could go back and give that younger Tee some advice that teenager Tee , bear in mind what you've learned about life and motor sport now. What? What would that bit of advice be that you would give yourself?
Tee: I guess the advice I give my you self. Mm don't change who you are. Just stay fulfilling a dream. You know, when you got a dream, stay fulfilling a dream. Stay passionate about it and, and don't give up. There's no A or B in in this. It's just an a, I grew up thinking there's an A and a B, whereas you leave A to go to B, then it's like your dream of a is like it's your short lived. So I guess now I'm only, I understand, you gotta persevere for what you believe in and, and, and over time it will happen. So, Yeah. Yeah.
Sue: I'm sure that's useful advice for our listener who may have a dream and, and sometimes be questioning whether it'll ever happen or not.
Tee: Do you know, is I've, I've realized it's, you can be doing something for over like maybe six years, seven years. Maybe and in that eighth year, it could happen for you. And that's just from you just sticking to it and not giving up. So it's, just persevere, stick through it, work hard for it. And that's, that's, and that's been the thing that's been the success for, successful people where they've stuck through it. And so, my younger self, yeah, I just, stick to your dream and, and don't give up. Don't give up. Yeah.
Sue: Brilliant. Well, I think, I think what we've heard today Tee is You've described that perseverance, that determination, that keep working hard in how you've been able to achieve what you have.
Tee: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, me personally, I'm, I'm loving it. I'm loving the journey and I'm always trying to improve. I'm always trying to better myself. So yeah, going into every race, I'm always trying to improve from the last race. So that, and that I guess that will carry me through in just my life off the track as well. Just personally, just always improve, always trying to be a better person and, thankful with the team. They've helped me. Cause not only. You know, being a better person, it's, it's, it's made me a more confident person, more outspoken. Do you know what I'm saying? When I thought I'd be doing a lot of these interviews or I've done radio interviews, it's not been one of them things for me, but I'm surely getting used to it. So yeah, I'm thankful that gracefully thankful.
Sue: Well, I'm sure your words will be inspiring for our listeners in this podcast. It's been really great to talk to you to get your story I wish you well into the future and for next year and, and further on.
Tee: Yeah, I appreciate that man, thank you for having me and yeah, thank you.
Sue: I hope you enjoyed what Tee had to say and we wish him well in 2023 Remember you can read a transcription of this and all our other episodes on our website at accesstoinspiration.org. Next week I will be discussing the importance of sleep with Dr Sarah Gilchrist, a sports scientist with an expertise in sleep and wellbeing, who has spent 20 years in the high performance sports industry. I hope you can join us then.
Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra Producer: Sue Stockdale
Legendary adventurer Myrtle Simpson talks to Sue Stockdale about her life in the second part of this interview (episode 84 featured her adventures on Ice and Mountains). Myrtle shares her recollections of how she lived for three months with a tribe in the rainforest in Surinam and more recently attended the COP 26 UN Climate Change Conference in Glasgow.
Simpson was awarded the Polar Medal in recognition of her arctic achievements, and National Geographic named Myrtle as one of four women 'who defied expectations and explored the world'.
Born in 1930, Myrtle Simpson began her early life in India, and then returned to Scotland after the war where she developed a love of climbing. Myrtle travelled to New Zealand and began working as a radiographer, spending weekends learning about climbing high peaks. After Mount Everest had been conquered in 1953 and the Himalayas became more popular and expensive for climbing expeditions, Myrtle and two friends decided to travel to Peru where they climbed numerous virgin peaks including a new route on Huascarán, the highest mountain in Peru at 6768m.
Myrtle continued to travel along with her husband, Professor Hugh Simpson, a scientist and pioneer of breast cancer research, whose research took him to many remote places. Hugh and Myrtle crossed the Greenland ice cap on skis in 1965, and four years later attempted to reach the North Pole, setting the record for the farthest North reached by any unsupported expedition at the time. Her adventures have been immortalised in an award-winning documentary "A Life on Ice" that premiered in 2019, winning several awards for 'Best Exploration and Adventure film' at film festivals around the world.
Find out more about Myrtle Simpson A Life on Ice Documentary website
This series is kindly supported by Squadcast –the remote recording platform which empowers podcasters by capturing high-quality audio and video conversations.
Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report Myrtle Simpson Transcription Sue: Hi, I'm Sue Stockdale and welcome to episode 85 of the Access to Inspiration podcast, the show with the social mission to help you be inspired by people who may be unlike you. We always hope that their experiences and insights cause you to reflect on your own perspectives about the world and to be inspired.
This week is part two of an interview with Myrtle Simpson, a climber and polar adventurer, who was the 10th woman in the UK to receive the polar medal. Myrtle talks about attending the COP 26 UN Climate Change Conference, how she lived for three months with a tribe in the rainforest in Surinam and why everyone needs something to live for. Sue: So, we've talked about your expeditions north. I also know you went to the rainforest?
Myrtle: Well, we've had to go there because of Hugh's work. He needed people that had lived on the Equator who had never had light. And so we looked at South America mostly, and then we tried, we thought British Guiana is place to go to. And so the idea was that I would set off in a boat with the four children at that time. And a girlfriend was going to help me who also played the flute. And I thought that'd be so helpful making friends with the local people. So she and I set off on the boat, but while we were halfway on our six week journey on the boat, and Hugh was to fly out to meet us at the last minute, there was all sorts of political troubles in British Guiana, so Hugh began saying come home. And I thought, what! After all of this effort not likely! The next country, which was Dutch Guiana, Surinam well, we thought would go there. So a friend and me landed with the four kids and are waited Hugh's arrival.
And by doing that, we got to know some gold perspectors who knew a river that if we went far enough up the river, we'd meet people that had never had any light, and still hadn't. They knew how far the gold prospectors had got, all the missionaries had got, but there were still people living further up river that, that hadn't happened. So we thought that's the place to go to. So we flew to this guy's gold mine. He was called Papa Tom by the locals. And he gave us an introduction to one of the locals that had come down to trade with him, who took us up to a village of his people who looked at us in absolute amazement, but were thrilled to see the children because other people like prospectors and so on, hadn't come with families.
So that's why they were suspicious of them and didn't want to make friends but they liked our kids. And funnily enough, our second son has blue eyes and pale hair, or he had at the time. So the women loved handling him. Well, anyway, Bruce became the one that everybody handled. So the rest of our family have always said, oh, that your blue eyed boy, Bruce . So I have to fight that still to this very day that I loved them all just as much as blue eyed Bruce. But I think he lowered the shutters to make us, to make friends with the people who were fascinated by our kids. I didn't know what to eat in the way of food. So they showed me can eat this. You can make bread with this. And, they loved doing that.
I heard a girl on the radio the other day saying people don't realize how much it costs to bring up children. Like it costs a pound to buy a bottle of water. Well, I've never bought a bottle of water in my life, wherever I've lived. You soon know what to drink or what not to drink. And the locals will certainly be able to tell you, the time that caught me out was we were actually, we had the family in Iceland and we came across some mushrooms. So we picked them but my good friend that we needed to carry one of the children because we had four kids and only two of us and one could walk and we needed another pair of hands. She had thick specs and she stood on them and broke the specs, but went on picking the mushrooms.
So that night, of course we cooked up the mushrooms and I a whole lot. And suddenly I was overcome with the most right for food poisoning was sick or sick. And my husband, professor of medicine, wasn't at least been interested in me being sick, but he was appalled that the breast fed baby would get the mushrooms through the milk. So when I lay on the floor being ill and all he did was fuss about the baby. Anyway, it, it was just frightful and it was all because we hadn't got our wits about us. You know, my friend, Janet without specs had gone on picking and I hadn't looked through them, the responsibility was all mine. It was my stupidity.
Sue: you always need to know what you're eating.
Myrtle: know your mushrooms before you leave home, know what's growing what you can eat, for goodness sake. And then it doesn't matter. Actually I asked the National Geographic once, how many people in your association have died in the field? And they said it was something like 99 and they died in their beds. Most people want to come home from a journey, wherever it is, and expect to get home and they will get home long as they've looked at the dangers before and made themselves capable. I think a lot of people these days, because everybody needs something to head for. They all need the north Pole, whoever they are, they need the north, need the north pole. You know, I think we strive on, on stress of getting somewhere. People have made life so cosy. A lot of people's way of life, suburban way of life, kids going off to nursery school early in the day, when days that my generation wouldn't dream of putting the kids to school, it was their job to give them their breakfast.
And likewise be at home when they came with hot scones, when they came back from school. Well, that doesn't seem to be a priority for modern families, and I'm of course I'm envious . It's magic that they've made a place for them in the world for themselves, but they'd better be careful because a lot of them are just given out too much and the priorities of life and solving the stresses they've sort of ever done it. Or I think a lot of women have anyway, let alone. Who can knit, I have asked all my family, my growing family, because now we're on grandchildren. I've got 10 grandchildren and I think it's four or eight. I can't remember how many great grandchildren. So we've gone on and on how many of their mums knit use the sewing machine I've be in frightful trouble for saying all that.
Sue: It brings us handily onto the subject of one of the areas or issues of concern for many people these days is the environment. And I know that you went to COP26 in Glasgow.
Myrtle: I was thrilled to.
Sue: what, what did that involve?
Myrtle: Well, the first thing was I had a phone call from a man and I said, who am I talking to? And he said, my name's anyway, I better not mention his name. And I said, I've heard of that name. And he said, I'm the heir. Oh, I said sitting up straight. Anyway. He said he had a bee in his bonnet that if all the world was going to get together about the weather, they'd better face the world. The most important word is high Arctic. Cause it's the temperature, the world getting hotter than Arctic is melting. So there's more water coming south. And that is what's going to make the world insufferable and may very easily just about end being able to live here. So he paid huge sums of his American money into having this sort of meeting the thing about was, there were people interested in the high Arctic.
There were people interested in geology of what scientists of this and that, the next thing. Anyway, I said to him, what on earth could, what can I tell in the world? He said, we've looked, we want somebody that's walked or skied across frozen land in the high Arctic. We're looking for someone that's been further north than 84 degrees north. He said, and we started looking for Nansen he's long been long dead, which they went all the way down the explorers, apparently until they came to me and Hugh. And our furthest north, we got on our north pole journey before our generator let us down was 84 degrees north. He said, you have done it, come and tell us about it. So I thought, well, is there really something I've done that no one else has so then I realized my age and I thought that's a bit of nonsense. And I said, I can't make my way to Glasgow, let alone, Timbuktu, you know, sort of thing. He said, well, bring a Sherpa. So I thought, okay, I'll take my youngest son, Rory.
So Rory and I set off to go to Glasgow where it was meeting. And he'd brought with him one of these electric scooters. And I said, what have you got that for? And he said, mom, I brought it for you because the roads are all going to be closed and it's gonna be a problem. Anyway, I thought, as I'd already decided, I couldn't ride a electric bike. I didn't think I'd manage an electric scooter. Anyway, we set off for Glasgow, with a friend who had a car, Sean Langer. And we found, because Sean knew all the back roads. And so on, of course we could drive perfectly well. And we got to this place and I just loved the atmosphere.
Everybody there in our pod had done something. For instance, I was sitting, somebody gone for a coffee and said, oh, did you sit there? Bring you a coffee. There was a young guy. So we were chatting away and suddenly he said, oh, look, those are the, my slides. You can see it must be my turn. So he'd jumped on the platform and only then did I realize he was just back from swimming five consecutive days from the North Pole to show to people it wasn't a joke. It wasn't just a little puddle. It was for real, there was real open water around the North Pole to the extent that he could swim for five consecutive days.
Well, I loved hearing him talk and everybody was somebody they'd all done something. And this guy who coughed up the money for our pod, he'd actually made a boat of plastic bottles and sailed around the world in it, like the Kon-tiki. Just to prove waste can be used. You can destroy the world if you don't use what's there. And everyone that we met had done something special. And as I sat waiting for my turn, because I'd been asked to bring about 12 slides. So now we have thousands of slides and anyway, I'd got my slides, right pictures. But I realized that, it was very interesting to actually people don't know what it's like, what we're losing.
And I'd noticed that there was a very Greenland faith. There was a man there who obviously couldn't speak much English, but he had a very perfect Greenland face. Now, nowadays, funnily enough, people don't like to use the word Eskimo, but in our day, the last thing Greenland is. The Greenlands wanted it be called Greenlanders or Eskimo.
What they did not want to be called was Inuit because they came, they were the wrong, the wrong people. They came from the other, they'd gone north from left to right. Rather from, they were very fussy about that. Like now you've gotta be very careful that you don't mix up your words. My family always saying to me, mom, you can't say that nowadays. Anyway, I just do needless to say so I get into deep trouble.
He was obviously a Greenlander and he didn't speak much English, but he had slides that he immediately showed of people on the beach, kids playing with their dogs, their dogs, sledge dogs, and having terrific fun and just growing up and women making the clothes and all, from fur and so on, all this interesting. And then he just, just went, pushed his arm to side gone, or only word he could say was 'gone' and what he was really getting the message and why they'd asked him to come was that because the sea had got so warm, it had risen three feet where he lived his world.
The whole world had just gone. He couldn't travel. He couldn't get the family food in because the snow had gone. There were no dogs, dogs had be all been shot or eaten because they couldn't go inland and hunt. They couldn't get to their seals because there was no frozen sea. So they were now relying on being fishermen.
And luckily, because the sea was thawing, they could get big enough boats to go fair enough out to get the cod. They never got the cod before, cos' that was, that was in deep water, but suddenly they found they could, in fact, but as far as, you know, culture was concerned, their way of life had gone and all the people all around polar regions lives will be untenable. And that'll happen to the west unless we wake up and stop using our coal and leaving our lights on and so on. I mean that, that was the message of the whole thing.
And of course there was some brilliant speakers there. In fact, there was an ordinary, an ordinary, I was going to say wifey because that's why I spent a lot of my life in Glasgow. They are wee wifeys. And we were just talking mutually, made friends and were chatting away and it turned out she was actually the leading scientist in Cambridge at a very special Institute and was a botanist.
And she was just a world authority on what she was talking about. And, I began to listen to the other people and you suddenly realize that there are people that knew things. And I was talking to a man and I realized he was a journalist of some sort and his jacket moved slightly. And I saw he was actually the editor of the New York Times, which I suddenly thought, who was I talking to? Anyway, he said to me, have you seen my rainforest? And of course I said, no, where? And he said, oh, it's in the basement. We went down and down and down. Then hey presto we were in what looked like a huge, great big warehouse and he'd press something the door opened and you could feel the rainforest.
You know, the rainforest, you know, immediately, if it's the real rain rainforest, you feel it in the air. And I was just amazed and stood there and realised that we were just standing in the middle of huge, great big barrels. And they each had a tree in them and the trees were straight from the rainforest.
And at the end of all this local school kids were going plant these. So in Glasgow somewhere or rather near the centre of town now has a rain forest. Anyway, his whole point was that unless we can handle the temperature of what we're doing in the world, that not only will we lose the rain forest, but everything else that grows. Unless you listen to the , who are going to tell you what will grow, which will probably mean three quarters of the world's got to change the vegetable it grows or the greener it's going to eat that, you know, they need the bottom is to tell them it could become the most important, no point in having a farmer.
If he can't grow his stuff because it's too cold or too hot or, or whatever. Anyway, I love this rainforest and it was just magic to see it there and to realise that that's what we need. It's all in the air. It's, it's the temperature. And you're going to find that in the high Arctic.
Sue: Well, things are changing so quickly and, and you have seen so much change, in your lifetime Myrtle and had so many experiences. I'm wondering if you were leaving a message for our listeners to, to perhaps reflect on what would be an important message that you would want to share about life or about what you've observed about.
Myrtle: Well, I think the people that are living are ones that have got faith in the future. You've gotta, you've gotta have something to strive for people have. I mean, I think people have got so used to not to strive for accept money or whatever, just look at the old ways of life. Don't dismiss your grannys, what's it, they used to say in class, but don't teach you granny to suck eggs, you know, listen, listen a bit more to the oldies. What did keep people going when the people weren't earning sort of money as they do today. It's possible. Thousands of people shared it can be done. You've gotta have something to strive for. And if you can't think of anything to strive for, because we all thrive on stress and something to head for you better, better find something mighty quick, cos that'll be your downfall. It'll be psychological in other words, so find something that's worth fighting for or striving for. Go out and don't just sit in your sofa and thinking, oh, woe is me, what could I do? Well, you could perhaps cook some scones and take them to some hungry man sitting on the pavement somewhere. Or there's something for everybody to strive for. We need stress to keep, going. And you know, you can do it even by little, little footsteps, you'll get there in the end. And I can see an awful lot of hopeless people, you know, at all ages. And I can't bear to see the young not getting up and doing something and I see it happening.
Sue: Where you've given us such a sense of possibility and how you've just gone on and done stuff and taken small steps, Myrtle. What's your next small step then? What are you looking forward to doing next?
Myrtle: I want my nasturtiums to grow long. no, seriously. Well, the winter is coming down. So can you cope with, with the cold and the dark and of course the loneliness, but I, I think you've all those things you are, are doable. And if you can't think of anything that will give you enough stress, write a books, do something, don't just sit there, waiting for the world to fall in around you and don't allow to be pushed into a corner. And if any of my family are listening, they're probably, oh, they're awful mum again. But you know, I do mean it. I do think that people with the best intentions, perhaps, I mean all this fuss at the moment about care homes, oh, they're all closing. There's not enough staff. I remember the days when there wasn't the hardest such a things at care home who looked after the elderly and allowed them to decay, perhaps instead of saying, oh, the care home, weren't let me visit granny. what's granny in the care and to start why, this feeling of loneliness and despair that I, I see around me in my own community, people far too young to have despair have got it. Even kids begin to say, oh, what's the point of going to uni? I think, you know, it's, it's worth learning something oh, look, we can't save the world. But I think, I think a lot of people have given up.
Sue: You certainly haven't given up Myrtle. I think you've given us a sense of vitality to day energy and belief in doing things and taking small steps. And it's been an enormous treat for me to, to talk to you today and to, to hear about your life and your experiences. Thank you so much.
Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra Producer: Sue Stockdale
Legendary adventurer Myrtle Simpson talks to Sue Stockdale about her life. In part 1 of a two-part interview, Myrtle recalls her North Pole expedition attempt in 1969, and some of the adventures that she has undertaken with her husband and children. In January 2017 she was awarded the Polar Medal in recognition of her arctic achievements, and National Geographic named Myrtle as one of four women 'who defied expectations and explored the world'.
Born in 1930, Myrtle Simpson began her early life in India, and then returned to Scotland after the war where she developed a love of climbing. Myrtle travelled to New Zealand and began working as a radiographer, spending weekends learning about climbing high peaks. After Mount Everest had been conquered in 1953 and the Himalayas became more popular and expensive for climbing expeditions, Myrtle and two friends decided to travel to Peru where they climbed numerous virgin peaks including a new route on Huascarán, the highest mountain in Peru at 6768m.
After getting married and having children, Myrtle continued to travel along with her husband, Professor Hugh Simpson, a scientist and pioneer of breast cancer research, whose research took him to many remote places. Hugh and Myrtle crossed the Greenland ice cap on skis in 1965, and four years later attempted to reach the North Pole, setting the record for the farthest North reached by any unsupported expedition at the time.
As their family grew to four children, most summers saw the Simpsons travelling to remote parts of the world to carry out research with indigenous peoples while living off the land for months.
Myrtle's adventures have been immortalised in an award-winning documentary "A Life on Ice" that premiered in 2019, winning several awards for 'Best Exploration and Adventure film' at film festivals around the world. She has also written several books including Due North, White Horizons and Home is a Tent. All images kindly provided by Myrtle Simpson
Find out more about Myrtle Simpson A Life on Ice Documentary website
This series is kindly supported by Squadcast –the remote recording platform which empowers podcasters by capturing high-quality audio and video conversations.
Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report Myrtle Simpson Quotes 'We put the very last of our fuel into our Primus and realised that if the sea didn't freeze that night, we'd had it'. 'My very first memory was sitting on a mule in a basket'. 'In those days, you could find unclaimed peaks and it was just absolutely magic to be a climber at the time'. 'We had just a magic trip to Peru and climbed numerous virgin peaks, including a new route on the highest mountain in Peru'. 'My daughter Rona was three and there was another local girl of three. And the two girls didn't have a word of each other's language but they never stopped talking to each other for three months'. 'Early women explorers were nearly all botanists because that was something women were allowed to be, back into early Victorian times'. 'I would find ordinary suburban life excruciatingly boring, but you don't have to walk far into nature to really suddenly you feel yourself becoming alive'. Myrtle Simpson Transcription [00:00:] Sue: Hi, I'm Sue Stockdale, your host of Access to Inspiration, the podcast with a social mission to help you be inspired by people who may be unlike you. We hope their experiences and insights cause you to reflect on your own perspectives about the world and learn something. Remember, you can find a transcription of this episode and all our other episodes on our website at accesstoinspiration.org.
Well, you'll know that this series is all about the theme of health and wellbeing, and we wanted to make sure that the guests represented a diverse range of ages, because health and wellbeing takes on different perspective depending on your age and stage in life. We've had a Millennial guest, a Gen Xer, and today's guest represents the Silent Generation who were born between 1928 and 1945.
This generation experienced many difficult times and challenges and survival required grit and strength, as well as a strong sense of the determination, and I think you'll definitely get a sense of this from our guest, Myrtle Simpson, who's from Scotland. Myrtle is a legendary adventurer and who was part of an expedition team along with her husband in 1965 and skied across the Greenland ice cap.
Her extraordinary life was captured in an award-winning documentary, a Life on Ice that has been shown at many popular mountain film festivals around the world. Myrtle had so many exciting stories to share with us that we've split the interview into two episodes. So today you will hear about Myrtle's early life and how she developed a loving for climbing and adventure, and why she took her children with her an expedition. I began by asking Myrtle about what her claim to sporting fame was. [00:02:10] Myrtle: My claim to sporting fame is due to a failure. We didn't get to the North Pole - disaster struck.
Sue: What happened?
[00:02:18] Myrtle: Oh, why we didn't get there? Well, the thing was, like all these things, you need money. And our North Pole trip was called the Daily Telegraph north Pole thing. And I had promised to send them bits and pieces as we moved north and the thing that produced the electricity, went on fire.
And without that, we couldn't find the Pole. And the reason we'd taken that of course was because I'd promised that I'd report to the Daily Telegraph guy. Anyway, the thing went on fire. So without it, we knew we couldn't actually find the Pole because it moved so fast. And we were meeting scientists at the Pole to say we'd reached there. Anyway, the thing went on fire. And so we had to get back, but we had to get back before the summer melt.
We needed the ice to get us back to our start. Well, we were too late to start with. We put the very last of our fuel into our primus. And realized that if the sea, didn't freeze that night, we'd had it. And I remember worrying, I didn't care if we all drowned, but how awful if everyone else did. And I was left alone. Anyway, during the night I was sitting up, it began to freeze. So I woke up the others and we tiptoed across the ice. And we, we got there. Got home, but we didn't get to the Pole.
Sue: well, sometimes there's glorious failures and you learn a lot from those things.
[00:03:41] Myrtle: Thats what my husband said. He was rather good at these things. He said that Nansen said, you can have three failures. So I always say that to family when they say, oh, you know, can't go any further, I say, you are allowed three failures in life and we give it another go. But of course we never had another go.
[00:03:59] Sue: I'm really curious to, to take us back to the start of your life, Myrtle. And I'm wondering where did you get this adventurous streak from?
[00:04:07] Myrtle: Well, my father was in the army. I was very lucky. My father was in the army, British army, but at that point, the Indian army officers were all Brits. So he was posted to Afghanistan and we set off for there when I was. I was born in 1930. So we went out actually, when I was five to Afghanistan and it was an absolutely magic life and the Brits as you know, the Raj and so on, they always had to go to the mountains, up to the hill stations for the summer. They couldn't stand being in Delhi. So my very first memory was, sitting on a mule in a basket, we were on trek is what people used to do. They went on trek and we were doing that. Mums, and families went, we were called the baggage train. Anyway, that's what they did in their spare time. They went up into hills and so I'd never felt frightened of steepness or snow. I just thought it was a magic environment. So then the war started and suddenly all the men evaporated. Indian army in their hundreds, British army, British officers in the Indian army, they all just vanished back to Europe and nobody really remembered the wives and children, the baggage train. So that's sort of what happened. The women were left to try to find or make up a school and all that sort of stuff. And it was not till well into the war. I mean, it was 1943 that actually the baggage train arrived back in the UK.
[00:05:41] Sue: I love how you call yourself part of the baggage train.
[00:05:43] Myrtle: Well, that, that was what they called it, anyway. So I had discovered the hills before I married my husband, Hugh. I knew him from climbing. My father's family came from Edinburgh, and Edinburgh hadn't been bombed or anything like that. It hadn't really been moved so suddenly into Edinburgh came my mum, well, our family. It was absolute chaos at that time with hundreds of soldiers coming back and nothing useful, like pensions for war widows or anything like that.
So suddenly in the middle of all that, was me who hadn't been to school, so I stood out like I sore thumb, but I already knew the great excitement of going into the hills and Edinburgh surrounded by hills, particularly the Pentlands. And so all by myself, I'd walk around the Pentlands. And then I realized there were people there and there were actually a gang of people the same age as me, at that time, basically. These were Edinburgh University climbing club, so I sort of attached myself to them and Hugh was, he was among them, but when he graduated, he immediately went off to the Antarctic. And in those days working for the same system that's around now that people going work for, they stayed for three years. Now. They go for about three months and fly back again. You know, people that are things like marine biologists. Anyway, Hugh went as a medic. He graduated as a medic on a Friday and on the Monday, he had to be in wherever it was to get the boat to the Antarctic. And that's what they did. And of course my mother-in-law never forgave me that her darling son was away for three years. And when he came back, he got me in tow. Anyway, anyway he went to the Antarctic.
Meanwhile, what really tipped it off was Everest was climbed. And every Scottish climber wanted to go to Nepal and have a go at the high tops, but at least go to New Zealand and learn about high tops. Cause our hills weren't high enough. We'd all climbed in the Alps but we wanted to learn about steep snow and all that sort of stuff. So with a gang of other climbers, we went on the boat and were called the 10 pound poms it cost you 10 pounds, only seven, if you went to New Zealand and by this time I'd become a radiographer and you had had to get a three year contract and then you were in New Zealand, and the weekends in New Zealand. In those days, you could find unclimbed peaks and it was just absolutely magic to be a climber at the time. Anyway, I became aware of the fact that it cost, it was beginning to cost money to go to the Himalayas, but you didn't have to pay anything to go and climb in Peru. But we needed three people and it was just the time that people were all beginning, their first jobs and so on. And we couldn't find anyone. My climbing friend, Billy Wallace, and I, we needed a third person. And suddenly we remembered that Hugh was in the Antarctic coming home. He'd had his three years. So he got off the boat in Lima, and Billy and I having had a six week boat trip were standing there waiting for him. And we had this absolute magic climbing in Peru. And I'm always very surprised that still there are not many people going climbing in Peru, and it's not like having to do a five week trek in. You can get the bus.
Sue: Amazing.
[00:09:35] Myrtle: and so we had just a magic trip to Peru and climbed numerous virgin peaks, including a new route on the highest mountain in Peru, which of course the Huascaran which had been climbed by an American woman actually, but years and years before there were masses of people who climbed it. But we had a new route on it by approaching from a different direction.
Sue: And were you at kind of, an oddity at that time being an adventurer and doing all this climbing?
Myrtle: Oh absolutely, particularly in south America, it was in all the papers, one woman and two men in a party of three. And I used to say to them above 18,000 feet, it doesn't matter.
Sue: Yeah.
Myrtle: And I would say that when people say, how could you possibly go away with two men in one little tent? What they didn't realize at that time too, we always slept in one sleeping bag. Because the magic of modern climbing equipment hadn't really hit us.
Sue: Well, the sense I get from what you're saying is you were, you were pulled by the idea of adventure and climbing.
Myrtle: well, as I say, my father was in the army, my mother came from a family that had worked with the Raj ever since it started, so her family had always lived among the mountains. There was two guys and me and apparently people were gambling at home, as to which of the two boys I'd marry, anyway, in the end, I chose Hugh not Billy. And so we got married just when we came home, he got the Polar Medal at that time for research and things he'd done in the Antarctic. And what sort of caused me getting to that film and onto your programme I'm sure, was the fact that I got my Polar Medal just a few years ago. And people say to me, oh, why should you get that? So I try to point out that it wasn't because of Hugh in the Antarctic it was actually the travels and stuff we had done since then. I'm just justifying why I'm sitting here talking to you.
[00:10:46] Sue: Well, I absolutely think you don't need to justify that at all. Your decades of experience and adventure, I can learn a lot from you Myrtle and be inspired by you. So I, I can't imagine what it must have been like for you setting out with the kind of equipment that you had in the days that you started.
[00:11:00] Myrtle: well, it was just amazing actually. I mean, I remember first going to a shop and in astonishment, seeing that you could buy a child's anorak. We lived in Glasgow and I took my kids down to Greenock where there's Blacks of Greenock, the firm that's still going strong. They would allow me to stand the children on the sewing table and one of their girls would come and snip, and the new materials had just come out - Ventile. At that time, I'm talking about the early sixties, Ventile was the first windproof material that was being used for anoraks and things like that. Completely new idea, you know, before that the Scottish climbers were looking for routes before the war in the Alps and then in the Himalayas, they were still using tweed jackets.
Anyway, Ventile had been discovered. So the seamstresses would measure the children, holding the material up, clipping, round and show me where to put it, where to sew. And in those days, of course, every woman had a sewing machine. And knew how to use it. So I used to just stitch up the lines they'd painted for me. And hey presto my kids also had Ventile anoraks. But then suddenly shops realized, and now I hear people saying, oh yes, this shop only, only sells clothes for women and their clothes you could wear to a party, but they're also made of windproof. And I'm amazed when I look at the price of them, because we of course bought all our equipment from the ex-army shops.
Everybody wore khaki whether it was skiing and new ski lifts were appearing in Scotland, or anyway. You still looked all dressed in grey because it was all, we all only place to buy equipment in those days was the ex-army shops. And they're still there. But I think I'm the only person that looks drab grey when everyone else is in scarlets and stuff.[00:12:00]
[00:12:50] Sue: You've brought into the conversation, the fact that you have children, and I know that your children came with you at least at the end of your journey in Greenland. Tell me about that expedition to ski across the Greenland ice cap. Something I have done many, many years after you Myrtle, and I'm just, fascinated to learn about you being the first women to do that.
[00:13:11] Myrtle: First of all, when I, when I got married, I was far too selfish to sit at home and because of Hugh's research that he'd been doing in the Antarctic and was still following through, we were going to go to Spitsbergen, Svalbard for three months for Hugh to do his research. He needed to go to where people could live on the Equator and then people that could have six months darkness and six months light, because he was studying hormones that apparently changed with all of that. It was a new sort of subject. I bought the food for the trip and all the rest of it, and suddenly I was pregnant and I thought, well, stay at home! I was jolly well not going to do that. So I thought, well, I thought about all the women that do travel all the time, babies or not. And of course that takes you north.
So on the way to Svalbard we stopped in Northern Norway, actually where the women follow the reindeer, and I had my newborn baby by that time in a rucksack and that's hopeless as you know, they slither to the bottom. Well, the women treated in horror and produced the most beautiful cradle, which they then call a komse. You see them in museums and things, but I've never seen as nice a one as mine.
It's completely windproof it's reindeer skin with the fur on the inside. So babies just absolutely love it. And it sits on the top, on a sledge or whatever, but also of course it can sit on your back. I still feel guilty of the fact that the women of course inherit, it goes down the generation, it belongs to the women. And so it was a woman that said I could keep it. And I said, oh, what, what will you take? They didn't want money. They've got plenty of money. They didn't want any of our equipment. I thought they might like some of our camping equipment, but one of the men saw that we had a bottle of Drambuie in the back of our van and he sort of pointed it and said, oh, take that for it. So I gave it to him and, and got the komse and I feel guilty ever since that, I don't expect the woman who gave it to me, got a sip of it and probably wouldn't have wanted the whisky anyway.
Sue: So you, you were taking your children at that point on your travels.
Myrtle: Yes. I always, well really, because of my father being in the army and it being accepted, the fact that the wives and the children went, they don't do that nowadays, of course in the British Army, but they did in those days, it was perfectly normal. The women followed. So if I happened to marry a guy that was doing his work, I was [00:15:00] jolly well going, going too.
[00:15:34] Sue: so you had your own kind of form of baggage train.
[00:15:37] Myrtle: Exactly. And then, we found that that's where we wanted to go. Although I was a climber, Hugh wasn't actually that, but he was an Arctic traveler and he'd been for three years in the Antarctic and been on thousands of miles, doing research and map making, all that sort of stuff. So putting our experiences together, we reckon we were dab hands at the high arctic. For a long time, Nansen had always been my hero. I dunno about you, but I just love the stories of Nansen. Do you know?
Sue: I know some of them and he was, of course was the first man to ski across the Greenland ice cap. Wasn't he?
[00:16:15] Myrtle: Yes, exactly. At the time nobody knew what was in the middle. They even thought it might be green fields and pastures you didn't really know what, or who lived there or, anything like that. It was Nansen who said a world without sun is like a world without love. And I think if you're looking, for peaceful life go north. Anyway, we went to Svalbard and did our three months research. And then Hugh took his guinea pigs, which had been Glasgow university students and allowed them then they were all going, going, climbing. There's a whole range of mountains, very little have been climbed in Spitzbergen and a friend came out to help me. And so we canoed. We found that the kumsa sat very well in the front of the kayak. So we went off by ourselves and I found that there was nothing stopping you taking children canoeing because it's much easier to cope with them like that. So that's really why I thought, well, why not take them.
Sue: As you, observe the world these days, Myrtle. And such a very often a focus on minimizing risk, health and safety. How do you assess your experience versus today's way of operating adventurously?
[00:17:28] Myrtle: well, I'm always getting that question. How dangerous to take the children. You hear it all the time. Oh, how awful? How could you be such a frightful mother is to take your children anyway. I've always said, well, you have to know what the dangers are to start with. And you solve those before you leave home.
What are the dangers? Is there really going to be a tiger hiding behind an iceberg waiting to gobble you up. Well, of course there isn't, maybe a polar bear. So in that case, you'd better find out what the real dangers are. You hear people even in Scotland saying, oh, it's far too cold. So I think, well, cope with that before you leave home. That that's what I've always said to people, and like teaching your children to ski in the summertime, go to one of these places, like very close. Near where I live, where they've got [00:18:00] plastic slope, where you can have lovely picnics in the summertime, down by loch take the kids down the summer and get them to learn to ski so that in the wintertime, they can have discovered the excitement of downhill skiing getting going fast. And so, you know, problems solved.
[00:18:29] Sue: So, so in terms of going to Greenland there, by the time you were embarking on that expedition, I think you had three children by that time and they joined you at the end, but how did you, how did you feel about leaving them in the first place to go off on that adventure?
[00:18:42] Myrtle: well that was, that was difficult, but obviously that was a step too far in way of danger. We couldn't actually take the children. We traveled as light, as light as possible. So you couldn't possibly take kids but we did the next best thing was that when we'd crossed Greenland, a friend of mine had arranged, she and I would collect for the Edinburgh Botanic gardens and she would bring out kayaks and our three kids. So the men then got in the kayaks and finished the journey that Nansen actually did, which was then up the coast of west Greenland to the main village township. And we settled down in a Glen where we knew that the Greenlanders came to collect their salmon from the river. And also, well, they got all their supplies ready for the winter, from there, like their fish and killing reindeer. And then. They used to cook it at that time with salt. They knew, knew all about that and that we could join them.
And we hoped we'd make friends. And I may say that by that time I had a three year old girl, my oldest, my daughter Rona was three and there was another girl, local girl of three. And the two girls didn't have a word of each other's language when they started. They never stopped talking to each other for the three months. And they still couldn't understand a word of each other's language, but it never stopped from talking and playing they immediately made dollies from seaweed and it was just a magic time. I think the privilege for the kids and we collected our plants.
[00:20:10] Sue: And just from reading your book and, and that part of your journey from my recollection, all you took in terms of resources was a fishing rod.
[00:20:28] Myrtle: Well, this is the point of knowing what the dangers are. You knock into run out of food in west Greenland. If you go at the time when the salmon are coming up the rivers. And in fact, I remember on another occasion hugh, who is a fisherman here and with his fishing rod and all the fuss that river fishers make. And he said, now keep the kids quiet. I'm going up the river. He came back with, I think, two fish. Meanwhile, I'd found I could stand up the mouth of the river with the net and just hoick them out the water. We had the whole ground covered in fish underneath us. If you go with there's plenty of food, whether it's Alaska where the brown bears are the problem, or Greenland where the polar bears as they're getting less and less able to get their own field. If you go with there's plenty of fish and plenty of alternatives, they don't want to come and gobble you up.
Sue: So that was at the end of your Greenland crossing, which was obviously successful. What did you find were some of the biggest challenges that you faced on that Greenland journey considering it was the first time for your perspective, as a woman crossing Greenland.
[00:21:21] Myrtle: Well the main problem was to get onto the ice cap as I'm sure, you know, and I dunno what your first vista of Greenland was, but I'll never forget the day I saw Greenland for the first time we were actually had the family and we were in Iceland. And we were walking around for the summer holidays around the horn of Iceland. That's that bit, that sticks up on the left and we were crossing a river, as you do. And as I'm sure you've done on numerous occasions, the river is fine. What we've made in such a fuss about and just short of the far bank, it suddenly gets deep and I'd got on the children on my back in this komse and I realized there was no weight. So it was floating.
Sue: mm.
Myrtle: Well, obviously I took a leap as one does for the shore, for the other bank and caught hold of it. All right. I looked up on a way in the distance way, way on, I could just see a line of hills and I thought - that's Greenland. I have to go there. It's just get gets at you. And you know, that, that is your, well, that's your north pole of your life. Everybody has, to have one, I think that's, what's lacking at the moment.
[00:22:25] Sue: How did you raise the money one of the things that puts people off doing adventures is it can cost a lot of money. How, how did you raise the money for that expedition?
[00:22:33] Myrtle: Well, luckily for me, because of Hugh's research, he needed to go to places like Svalbard because that's very thing his work work was to do with. That was his science that he was particularly involved in. So we usually went and dealt with his science had six weeks doing his science, and then got down to what I wanted to do, which was to make the journey or whatever, but Hugh was collecting sinophils sets a sort of scientific word that's what he was collecting.
And you count those from urine samples. So we were guinea pigs for Hugh, which meant that, that at specific times of the day, he wanted us to be his guinea pigs. As we ate up the food sled got lighter, but it also got heavier at the same time, bringing Hugh's samples on the way home. But also of course I soon found that, magazines and everything. If you could make yourself a good enough travel writer or get feeling of where you were, you could, in those days, there were masses of magazines. I'm very, very sorry for young writers nowadays. They haven't got that outlet, but whether it was Readers Digest and you'd get a big sum of money or the National Geographic, for instance or else the local, the were mags said, you, you could flog them. Alright, you could get enough money to keep, keep yourselves going. Yes, that's really how I brought in any cash and Hugh was doing his research. Because it was new research, people were very interested in it and he had his own lab in Glasgow university.
[00:23:58] Sue: You had your funding, both of you to go on your, journey. Did you know that you would be first, the first women to get across the Greenland ice cap, at the point you were doing it?
[00:24:07] Myrtle: no, that has never been a priority. I I've never thought like that. I just wanted to go selfishly, I suppose for myself, but I never ever thought that, I'd end up as. Oh, you know, as the first person. I never, I have never, and I've never really met anyone. I would call a real explorer. Who, who does think like that you've gone because you're passionate about the land or the people, or what grows there, or, in fact it's botanists is the early, early women explorers were nearly all botanists because that was something women were allowed to be right back into early Victorian times. A lot of those early, people that brought the plants back and so on, they were all botanists and they got a chance to go because people could accept that they needed to go and see what they were. The people that brought back the flowers that in our gardens and so on nowadays, it was women botanists. Well, I was no botanist. As I had said, I never went to school properly in the early days. So I'm coming, you know, I've never been to uni, I'm completely uneducated, but you can still collect plants for other people.
[00:25:12] Sue: I, I think what your Myrtle is educated about life and educated about, the adventurous mindset, the can do mindset. Having done that Greenland expedition and, and for any listener that gets a hold of your book its definitely well worth a reach. Having completed that expedition, what did you learn? What did you learn about yourself?
[00:25:30] Myrtle: Oh, I've learned everything that's kept me going ever since. I mean, here I live at the end of a road by myself, you know, I'm 90 something or other, and I find other people saying, oh, you know, doesn't this get you down all that. Things do get me done. Of course they do, get you down but not, not that.
I think there are four things you really learn. First of all, you, you learn that nobody's going to help your stile. There's no point in setting off unless lets you know how to get over that flipping stile. That's self reliance. Nobody's going to help you. You've gotta keep going. One, one little step in front of the other. And I always say Chinese footsteps, little shuffling footsteps. If you keep going long enough, you, you get there. That's two.
Then I say priorities. What really are the real dangers are going to stop you, and you'll find that in fact, you can solve many of them like if it's gonna be too cold and we, our first trip crossing Greenland and we got minus 54, and that was actually colder than we, than we were anytime on our north Pole journey. And you think, oh, how can you keep out the cold? Well, you, what did Nansen make his vests of and all that, you can solve those and I think the other thing priority is you know, you've gotta solve dangers before you leave home, but then you've gotta be glad to be alive.
And as you know, the excitement of whether it's a little Pentland on the back of Edinburgh or every city in the, in Britain, the hills are not so very far away isn't it great to be there. And I would find ordinary suburban life, excruciatingly boring, but you don't have to walk far to, to really suddenly you feel yourself becoming alive.
And I think for elderly people, and I see so many people of my age say, oh, you're so lucky. And I think lucky, what about? To be able to walk somewhere or something? I think too many elderly people think, gosh, I'm old, I'd better. I'd better stop doing things. I'd better go and sit on sofa instead of taking a dog for the walk round the block, I think an awful lot of elderly people, are maybe by their families slightly getting pushed into the corner and don't join in. Nobody's interested in what I think, sort of thing. That's just silly old granny, you've gotta keep going. And you've gotta be glad to be alive or else. You've got to have a north Pole to head for all of us at any age.
[00:27:50] Sue: And, you described that sense of aliveness Myrtle that you get when you get out of up into the hills, out into nature. What is it that that nature does for you? What is it that gives that sense of aliveness to you?
Myrtle: Well, I think one of the things is to buy a packet of seeds, and plant them. And I often do that now, what do I give to so and so elderly and decrepit, oh, I'll give them a packet of seeds and they'll put 'em in the ground and they'll think, gosh, they won't be up this week, but they might come up next week.
Wonder if those tulips were really bloom in my garden or window sill or whatever. Or, you know, keep a dog breed, some pups. Isn't that exciting? There's so many excitements that, that you can follow up. And I need excitements and, and I get a lot of it in my garden. I'm just at the moment trying to make nasturtiums hang. And if you keep the bulb if you keep the flowers they, you get a dry seed. That's done that plant and its seed the next year. Hey, presto, suddenly your nasturtiums will be six long instead of an inch.
Sue: You role model, Myrtle this sense of curiosity and wonder in the world and what's possible. And I also get the sense of hope that the planting, the seed, the waiting, encouraging somebody to wait for the tulip is about possibility in the future?
Myrtle: Oh, absolutely. You've gotta be glad to be alive, to look to the future or else. Now it's very easy not to do any of that, you know, put your head under the duvet, and just stay there. Hoping that spring will come well it might not.
Sue: Yes.
[00:29:26] Myrtle: but you can see that it does come. If you do something about it. You know, we say to people, for instance, keep skiing. It's a fantastic sport for the elderly, because the uplift will take, I don't mean not CrossCountry skiing, but downhill ski for the elderly you should definitely keep doing. And I know so many people that are infinitely better skiers than me, women, and they've given up, and that's absolutely daft because it's normal for the uplift to get you uphill. And all you've got to do is ski down and you can go as fast or as slow as you like. So it's a perfect thing to do, but the ski club I belong to has a race at the end of the season. That's in 10 year age groups.
[00:30:04] Myrtle: and I've found for many years now, I haven't had anyone to ski against. Well, there is one person and it's a man and he's 103 and he rings me up and he's called George Stewart. And he lives in Perth. He rings me up with advice. Like, have you got your shoes on, done up properly, not slopping around in pair of slippers, which I am at the moment, because you mustn't fall. You can't fall because then you break your hip so, its the same things, look after yourself. What are the dangers? Well, the dangers of being ill is you lose your balance. You know, people say to me, why dont I buy one of these bikes, that'll go at 40 miles an hour. Well, I know where I went. I've lost my sense of balance and I'll fall. So I don't that.
Sue: but you did do other things though. You go swimming in the river.
[00:30:49] Myrtle: Oh, well, swimming is magic at a sport. As you get older more, I have friends who go and spend hours in gyms or with very expensive physios and give them exercises to do, to keep them going. Go for a swim. All your muscles are used and you're not stretching. Now you have to go with the times. Of course, and I find that I can't set off doing my normal crawl at speed. But most whatever, however old and decrepit, you can slip into the water and lie in your back and paddle your feet. And I've found something that's amazing that grandchildren, even as small as four and five, can say, Hey granny, if you're too tired now, get on my paddle board and you can launch on that, pull yourself on like a dead fish and then a child as young as that can stand up on it with a paddle and give you a little trip. And they're thrilled to do that.
[00:31:45] Sue: Sounds like you have got all your grandchildren involved there too.
Myrtle: But I mean, most, people live further south than I do. So the water's warmer, and you know, it's the cold that gets you as you get older and older, but it doesn't seem to get, get you when you're swimming. As long as you keep moving and you can keep moving however old you are.
[00:32:06] Sue: Well, it was a real pleasure to speak with Myrtle and to hear about her Arctic adventures, and I hope it has given you some insight into the mindset and approach that she took on her travels and maybe how it's different from today. Next week we'll be back with part two of this interview when Myrtle will talk about attending COP 26, the UN Climate Change Conference back in 2020, and also how she spent months living with a tribe in the rainforest in Surinam with her husband and four children. I hope you can join us again then.
Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra Producer: Sue Stockdale
Brian Sachetta, software developer and creator of “Get Out of Your Head,” brand and book series talks to Sue Stockdale about how he combines his experiences in the tech world with previous mental health battles to offer practical strategies for evading one's psychological demons.
Brian currently has two books on the market, “Get Out of Your Head: A Toolkit for Living with and Overcoming Anxiety” and “Get Out of Your Head Vol. 2: Navigating the Abyss of Depression.” His mission is to help as many sufferers as possible through not only those books but also his blog and podcast appearances.
Connect with Brian Sachetta via website : Instagram : Facebook
This series is kindly supported by Squadcast –the remote recording platform which empowers podcasters by capturing high-quality audio and video conversations.
Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report Key Quotes I had always had an interest in doing things with technology. I had so many pages of notes, 100 pages in Microsoft Word, I thought why don't I distill this down into something? That's what happens with anxiety in general, our bodies go into a fight or flight state. I have these tendencies to chew things over to ruminate, and that is not helpful as it only tends to magnify the fear that I'm feeling. You can't really solve emotions, you can only let them flow through you. I was going out and AB testing different strategies. A lot of people have reached out to me. I had one reach out to me and said, this literally changed my life. I think when you dig into it, art is sort of emotion. In my books. I talk about the pain. I talk about the difficulty. I'm not smoothing things over and being everything's wonderful and happy. I give space for the darkness. I give space for the difficulty. Brian Sachetta Transcription Sue: Welcome to the podcast. Brian, it's great to speak to you today.
Brian: Hey, Sue. Thanks for having me. Great to be here.
Sue: You describe yourself as an author, a blogger and a software developer, and then there's this whole other interesting side that I'm fascinated to get into around mental health, but I'd really like to start with your professional career, what got you interested in computer science?
Brian: Yeah, I think it really came down to enjoying building things and also wanting to use my creative talents in some capacity. I feel as though I have creative energies and I like to channel those into different endeavors. So as I was going through college, you talk to your counsellors, you talk to your professors and whatnot, and they're trying to help you see all the different options that are out there and then also help you make a decision as to which path you want to go on. And so I was in a business school program in my undergraduate degree. And there was an opportunity to take like a concentration that was kind of a requirement of that degree. And you can pick marketing, finance, accounting, computer science, something like that.
And I had always had an interest in doing things with technology. I sold a lot of stuff on eBay as a kid, I built random websites and whatnot, and it was also kind of one of those like pivotal moments in time, or you know humanity where it was like, you can tell that like mobile apps are coming and, you know, things are going to move on to the internet faster and so for me, I just saw the intersection of a bunch of different threads in my mind. Right. If I can learn to program things, not only can I build my own products but then I could also maybe start a business. I can use my creative capacities infuse those into the products that I'm building. So I saw that as an interesting gateway or entryway and that's kind of what got me started. I would say the funny thing is, I think for most people that you talk to, you may get into something on day one for a specific reason. And then 10 years down the road, 20 years down the road, those reasons may change.
Sue: Well, I'm hearing a mix of commerciality and creativity. That, sounds like that the path that you have undertaken was meeting those needs as you went forwards. And now you're, writing about mental health issues. How did that come about?
Brian: yeah, so I will say, that I'm still a full-time software developer. I do the writing on nights and weekends and it wasn't necessarily like I'm on this path, I'm now hopping over to this path and, and going in a totally different direction. It was more in the process of living my life. I realized that I had been dealing with, anxiety, depression, things like that. I would go on a date with a girl and say to myself, like, I am nervous. I am very nervous, something like that until you have enough of those experiences, it's hard for you to point at them and be like this. Quote, unquote anxiety, right? This is quote unquote, a panic attack.
You just are 17 years old. And you say to yourself, I feel uncomfortable in specific situations after years of dealing with things, working with therapists, working with doctors, it's easier for you to make determinations about yourself. If a therapist says like this person has an anxiety disorder, we need time to let that play out. Like if, if somebody is nervous for one day, its probably not a disorder. Right. We need a pattern of behavior.
So, going back to the original question, it was really just me going ahead and living my life. And in the natural process of being employed and showing up to work year after year, whatever it was dealing with different mental health issues and saying to myself like, there is a lot more here that I need to work on that I need to uncover. And then once I started working on those things, I felt as though I couldn't really turn back and just like keep that information inside. I said to myself, I really feel like I've made a lot of progress and I talk to a bunch of different people and tell them my story and they're all like, that's pretty interesting.
Like, what are you gonna do with that information? And so at a certain point, I said to myself, like I have so many pages of notes, right? Like 50 pages, a hundred pages in Microsoft. why don't I distill this down into something. And so that was sort of the impetus for my first book. And as you're editing things, as you're putting things in, cutting things out, it was like, okay, maybe, maybe this specific topic doesn't fit into the narrative that I'm working on right now, but maybe that becomes a blog post down the road, something like that.
Sue: So as you're speaking Brian I'm, noticing the, the effect that naming something, giving it a label or a title seemed to have on you, where it was a, series of unrelated, but relevant experiences that you'd had, and going on dates or whatever it was and how you were feeling emotionally when you gave it a, an umbrella title or label that seemed to make a difference. Am I reading what you're saying? Correct.
Brian: Yeah, for sure. I think it's like, how do you know what you're dealing with until you're able to put a name on it, right? It's like, if you want a dog to come over to you, you, you need to, you know, say, Hey Sparky, come over here. Right. Rather than just whistle at it. So that was definitely important. Almost monumental in my struggle, my battle, whatever it was. On the other hand, we do want to be careful with the labels and names that we associate with things, if somebody says, Hey, I, was nervous one time. We don't want to go ahead and say, I am an anxious person. I suffer from, some sort of anxiety disorder as much as it, it sounds a little crazy. It's like in the world of mental health, Things become self-fulfilling prophecies, where it's like, this is the lens through which I'm viewing my world. And that changes how I see things that changes how I then interpret things and then make sense of them and then take action in the world. So it is important to label things that it was very important for me, but that was more like a result of me having dealt with those things for a long time.
Sue: So you've given us one example, Brian, of going out on a date as one experience you had that impacted you emotionally. It be maybe helpful for the listener to get a sense of what other types of experiences that you noticed that you felt that you could have handled differently or better.
Brian: for sure. And I do wanna preface this by saying that everyone experiences anxiety differently. Everybody interprets it differently as well. And so some of the things that I talk about may not resonate with other folks, but these are just my experiences. For anxiety, when you live there long enough, you start to recognize the pattern. So for me I would say the anxiety falls into two buckets. The first one would be social anxiety or anxiety of intimacy. The other would be anxiety around, death and health and things like that. So I guess two quick examples is 2013 and I talk about this in my first book, I had made a reservation to go skydiving. I was so excited about it. Right. Cuz it's like, oh wow. That's so fun. You know, jump out of a plane. That's an exhilarating experience. I think I probably booked it like a month in advance and I was a little bit nervous about it. There's no doubt that I'm both excited and nervous, but as that reservation approached, like let's say six days in advance, five days in advance, whatever. I started to jump into my head and start to think about the specific details of the dive itself and it wasn't helpful, but that's what happens with anxiety in general, our bodies go into a fight or flight state. Our minds are moving at a million miles a second, and we're trying to rationalize our way out of the fear that we're feeling.
So I'm sitting there, in my bedroom I'm not scared here. I am like on the edge of the plane. I'm about to jump out of it. I'm gonna be safe. My parachute is gonna deploy yada yada, yada. And then like the next thing I know, it's two hours later and I've chewed this thing over and over and over again, kind of gotten stuck on the process without making any progress. So, that was an experience early on for me where I was 23 at the time, I would say early-ish in my anxiety journey or at least five, six years into it. And so for me, that specific experience was sort of a turning point it really shed some light on the fact that I have these tendencies to chew things over to ruminate, and that is not helpful. That only tends to magnify the fear that I'm feeling. It's like, we think that we can solve the issues that are going on in our mind as it relates to anxiety. But one of the problems is that like, you can't really solve emotions, you can only let them flow through you. And so for me, that became a core part of my journey, as well as my story itself, being able to say, this was a point in time in which I realised, I gotta stop doing that.
I'm not gonna sit here and say that I magically change everything at that moment, but it was still pivotal for me. I guess on the, the social side, I still get anxious when I go on dates, but the difference now is 10, 12 years into the journey. I have strategies for dealing with those things, I know at the very, very least I have the capacity to talk to myself and say like, it is okay to experience what you are experiencing rather than saying, what is this? Oh my God, am I dying? Am I having a heart attack? Am I gonna freak out? Am I gonna not get the job? So the self-talk is really important as well.
Sue: So in this awakening that you had when you began to discover ways to manage your mind I can't help, but think about the strength perhaps of your problem solving capabilities in your day job. Were you aware that in coping with your mental health experiences that you were taking the same type of problem solving approach to dealing with technology.
Brian: Yes, there were definitely times where throughout this journey, I would read a book. I would listen to something on tape. I would read a journal article, something like that. That piece of content would have some sort of strategy and say like, when you're anxious, try this specific tactic. And I would then take that tactic to different events in my life, whether it was that job interview or going skydiving and I would test it out and I would try to say to myself, does this work for me? If it does, let's put it in this bucket over here. If it doesn't, let's forget about it. Let's move on. So there was definitely that aspect to it, where it was like I was going out in AB testing a different strategy. And sometimes I think just by virtue of living your life and having enough experiences, the wisdom kind of like slowly seeps in, even without you necessarily trying to find it.
Sue: You used the word early on about pivotal moments or, or significant moments. Was there any one particular situation that you experienced that really changed how you were thinking?
Brian: yeah. I talk about this at the beginning of my first book, this really epitomised the beginning of my journey, which was I went off to college. It's my freshman year. I'm probably two weeks into it. I had met this girl that I liked. Seemed like, she liked me as well. And we had hung out a couple times, and so she had texted me, let's say a couple days after we had last hung out I could tell that she was intoxicated and I was like, oh, I'm kind of scared of intimacy. I haven't had that many close relationships. I'm sober. It's easy for me to be like, I've had a couple beers, come over and let's have a good time. I don't have to think about this. But I was sober and I knew that she wasn't. So it wasn't even like the normal, scary stories on campus of, intimate encounters. It was me being like, I don't know what to do here, and I am nervous.
And she's a good person. This was just a tough scenario for me. She was just forceful and was like, I'm coming over, like yada, yada, yada. And I don't know if I'm ready for this. I'm really nervous. My heart is starting to race, and so I'm thinking to myself, she'll be here in like 10, 15 minutes. And the next thing I know, she's there and she like screams my name and, she's all excited, but also like kind of drunk. And I was just like, I don't know how to handle this. I'm so nervous. I had had a panic attack with a girl that I liked about six months before that. And I'm thinking to myself, get it together, hold it together. Figure this out. And we're in the hallway of, of my dorm building. And I sit down on one of the couches and I'm just like, figure this out, figure this out, figure this out. And she sits down next to me and I don't know how this is gonna go. My mind is racing. And as soon as she sits down, she's like, oh my God. What is happening. You are shaking. You are like you are freak, yada yada yada stands up is screaming all these words at me.
And I was still friends with her after the fact she's a good person, but in that moment, it was just like, oh my God, this is worst case scenario, you know? And I'm not trying to say that this is like, the worst thing to ever happen to somebody. It was just that when I was 18 years old, right. It was like, this was an important subject to me. And this was something that I hadn't dealt with before. So it was, it was pivotal in the sense that I woke up the next day realized that I had ashamed myself and sort of blown this moment, even though I, I didn't necessarily do anything wrong, I just wasn't prepared for it.
And I woke up and I'm like, okay, that's now two panic attacks in front of girls that I like within the last six months. I need to do something about this. I cannot let anxiety or whatever I'm calling this thing, continue to ruin my social life. And so I always say if there were a movie, created about my journey it would probably open the first scene or the first shot would be me at my desk that Saturday morning in a cold sweat rampantly searching on Google, like what was that? Nervous, whatever. And so that was a pivotal moment, just in the sense that it made me say to myself, like I can't keep running from this thing. I can't keep avoiding it. I can't keep hiding from it. I have to figure out what I'm dealing with and I have to try to make progress. Now I will say that it was a long journey from there, but at the same time, that was the moment the journey begins.
Sue: Mm. Wow. You've really painted a vivid picture for me to imagine you in that scenario, Brian, and also the, impetus that must have given you, to then move forward and want to do something about it, to be different.
Brian: Definitely. I don't want to glamorize it though. It was like, uncertain and murky and difficult. It was like, I'm now forced into this new journey. What the heck do I do next?
Sue: Now listeners should know that you're wearing a t-shirt that says 'get out of your head' on it, which is the name of your brand on your book series.
Brian: Yep.
Sue: then how did you then come to putting pen to paper with all of those notes that you had on Microsoft Word? I guess many people might have some mental health challenges. They might deal with it individually, they may not want to then share it with the world. So that's where I'm curious to know what, what made you believe that it would be of value to other people to write about it?
Brian: Yeah, it's a great question. It's something that I've thought about more and more in the last couple of years, so I started writing the first manuscript in 2017. It's like in 2017, when you're a 27 year old kid and you actually don't have a lot of real life and real world experience, sometimes you can just be very confident for almost no reason. I had no training in this stuff other than the real world, I had no degrees. For me to sit there and be like, I'm gonna write a book about this topic that, I'm not credentialed in and share it with others and, and help them change their lives or whatever. That is almost absurd. I just know that the things that I had been through were difficult for me. And so I had all this pain and distress built up inside of me. I see this creative avenue, this new way of, writing blogs and books as a way of getting that pain out of me and trying to do something positive with it.
The funny thing now is like, I look back, at 32, and my approach is just so different. I almost think to myself like, hey, I have actually written a couple books. I've written a bunch of blogs and a lot of people have reached out to me. I had one reach out to me and be like, this literally changed my life. I was borderline suicidal. I was ready to leave my wife. And I read this book and it totally helped me turn things around. And it was like, holy crap. I did not even know. I was hoping something like that was possible, but like, holy crap, I did not know that that, that could actually happen. It was so moving. Right. It's like, I think about it now. And I'm like, I almost want to cry. I now look back at 32 and I've heard from folks. And I know the impact that some of my stuff has had. And yet at the same time, if I were to start the journey today, I would, I would be like, where do you even begin? Like who, who am I to think that I could possibly have an impact on certain people?
So I think I am lucky in the sense that I started when I did, because maybe I'd be more hesitant now. I think for those listening, it is a difficult decision to make, it's like. If you are afraid to, talk about some of the things that you deal with, if you don't wanna put content out there or whatever it is totally. Okay. Not every single person needs to write a book, write blog posts, something like that. Everybody is on their own path, their own timeline, their own schedule. If, what works for you is, talking to loved ones, going to the therapist. That's totally okay, the end goal is not to become like famous or anything like that. The end goal is for everybody that's in this, mental health community to find healing. And however that happens is totally okay.
Sue: Well, what you were saying there, Brian, about channeling your your emotions into something purposeful was exactly what one of our previous podcast guests said, maybe just as an aside, this podcast came about in, exactly the same way. We had never done podcasting before. I didn't know how to produce a podcast, how to create one. But I knew that if we heard people's stories like yourself and all our other guests we've had over the last two and a half years, I knew if we created a way of hearing those stories and allowing them into the world maybe there'd be some listeners out there that would enjoy it and sure enough, that has happened. So I always think it's about taking the first step and just following your possibilities and that's exactly what you've so wonderfully described to us today, and where you've landed up now then is continuing on writing, making a difference in people's lives and having an impact.
Brian: And it's great to hear, your story as well. I think. When you dig into it, art is sort of emotion. And I think the blessing and the curse is like with art, we can connect to other people and we can make an impact. And we can share ourselves with the world. The curse is depending on what the art is. It might take us a lot of pain and struggle and difficulty to get to that point or to want to create the art.
Sue: Hmm, absolutely. Now the brand that you have created Brian to me, there's a certain left brain logic to the brand. One of the phrases that sometimes gets used around mental health and dealing with emotions is pink and fluffy. And for the listener that wants to go and look at the website will certainly get the experience that it is not the case. What came to my mind when I looked at it is a heavy metal band, a rock band. And there was an energy that came from your website that really did appeal to me. That was different from other things that I've come across in the mental health space. What was your thinking behind creating the image and the brand for all of the materials and information you're sharing.
Brian: Definitely. And I'm glad that it resonated with you and you got that message. It it's definitely what we were going for. It's just kind of interesting. It depends on the person. My brand is a little bit niche in the sense that not everybody wants to see a snarling snake in your face. Right. And that's okay. I think. When I sat down with my designer to create the brand, it was funny because I had actually already written my first book and he was if you want to turn this into a brand brand, rather than like just a book, you need a cohesive, brand identity, symbol, icon, logo, whatever it is.
There's this, great thought out process that a good designer will follow, but he's coming up with all these different ideas and trying to figure out what tone I had already conveyed in my first book with the writing itself. And so eventually, I'll fast forward, but he he came up with what I call the snake brain logo.
And he was saying, you have that punk rock metal energy where I'm trying to inspire people to, to go do interesting things, to fight their own demons. And also convey things in a way that is a little bit different. What my designer and I really kind of concluded was in my books. I talk about the pain. I talk about the difficulty. I'm not smoothing things over and being everything's wonderful and happy and whatnot. I give space for the darkness. I give space for the difficulty. And so in. The brand, we wanted to make space for that as well. So that's why, it's a little bit of a darker theme, darker tones. And then also just the iconography of the snake itself. It's like combining all of those things saying, let's bring in some sort of inspirational, let's go kind of message. Through that logo as well, let's also bring in the sort of pain and difficulty aspect of it, things that I mentioned a moment ago, and then also there's a little bit deeper meaning of like, if you look at the logo, it's like, think about a snake, a snake coils around its prey. Our minds can do that to us. They can twist around us and make us feel as though we're trapped. And so when we combine the brain with the snake, like in this specific logo, that was one of the subliminal messages that we were putting across. Maybe somebody would pick up on that. Maybe they wouldn't. But this serpent. That is the face of the brand that was intentional as well. So there's a lot of different messages there. And I think, again, it resonates with some folks more than others, but that's okay. That's what branding is trying to attract a certain kind of person and persona. And hopefully like that person is gonna match up with your messaging. And if the branding and the messaging or the content overlaps with one another, then we'll know that we've done a decent job.
Sue: if anybody was picking up one of your books or reading a bit of your blog content, how do you write about these strategies for dealing with emotional challenges?
Brian: Yeah, it's another good question. In the last couple of years, my writing has changed a little. In the sense of it's kind of detailed, but you would pick up on it if you picked up the second book specifically is like, rather than, sometimes you might read a self-help book and it'll say when you do this and you do that, you experience X.
I actually have gotten in the habit of being like, when we do this and we do that, we feel this way. And that's super intentional because I've been through all this stuff before I do that. Right. But also it's wanting to create that sense of community, wanting to show the reader that I am right there with them. I have been through this stuff before and I'll probably will in the future, it was wanting to lend a hand and provide a sense of solidarity being I am right here with you. We're gonna get through these difficult things together.
Sue: Mm, absolutely. And I'm still hearing this 'can do' sense of even how you talk about your experiences and what you hope to convey in the book. The, I don't want the emotion to overpower me. The antidote to this is to take some action.
Brian: Definitely. And I think, that's part of my own personal philosophy, just in the process of living my life. There are times where depression may wash over you and make you feel as though things are hopeless. There is nothing you can do. There is no action that you can take to change your lot in life. I think I've been through that enough times to know that, that conclusion or statement is not accurate. When I say the philosophical piece, it's like, I'm trying to strike a good balance. We need to talk about that darkness. We need to talk about the difficulty, but at the same time, I'm not gonna be one of those people who are like, Hey, this is just who you are. Accept it. You're gonna be anxious for your entire life. You're gonna be depressed for your entire life.
There's nothing you can do about it. I try to strike a good balance of the two things and say like, look, you can do things to change your life, but those things are probably going to be difficult. But at the same time, come with me on this journey and let's see where we get. It's sort of a grounded, even keeled approach I know that it's possible because I have done it myself and that's not a humble brag. It's just like trying to, give listeners a little bit of hope. So it's throughout the writing. You'll, pick up on that thread. Me trying to and obviously just, even throughout this conversation Sue, it's like you pick up on some of that positivity, but there is still I, I wouldn't say negativity. It's just allowance of the difficulty to be there. And for us to figure that out in hopes of then continuing the journey,
Sue: So there's no avoidance of the reality of a situation.
Brian: that's exactly what it is.
Sue: And if our listener then was experiencing some form of anxiety, depression, OCD, I know you're not here to be our doctor or advisor. What, would be one offer you would make to them or something to reflect on or consider as a result of listening to this podcast?
Brian: Yeah, I think. And I could give one, but why don't I try to give two?
Sue: Oh, go for it.
Brian: I think the first one is to get as the brand states, try to get out of your head, your mind is not always your friend when you're chewing things over and worrying about certain subjects and ruminating on negativity and frustration and whatnot. There is no end to that. There's no, like eventually I break through and I'm on the other side. Now, the reason why the name of my brand is called, get out of your head is. You have to put those feelings and thoughts and ruminations down and go move on a different path. A couple ways that we can do that is like getting back into our bodies.
So whether that's through deep breathing, like sitting down for a minute and doing some sort of box breathing pattern where it's like breathe in for four seconds, breathe out for four seconds or simply going for a walk. It's funny because sometimes we do those things and then on the other side of whatever activity it is, even if it's like going to the gym, we may say to ourselves, I feel better now. Why don't I now think about those things that were worrying me before? Cuz I'm in a better head space. It's like, no, no, no. What happened is you went over here and you're trying to go back over there. Don't do that. So that's obviously super high level, but that's the first thing that I would tell, tell listeners.
The, other thing I think is just to give some space for yourself and be able to look at what you're dealing with and say like, Hey, this may be difficult. This may be painful. I may not want to go through it. But it is okay. Right. A lot of people experience anxiety, a lot of people experience depression. Again, it's not something that we wanna welcome into our lives, but the less that we've resisted and say like, I can't be experiencing this. This is not what I'm supposed to be experiencing. This is brutal. This is terrible. Like I am. You know, I am strange. I am, something is wrong with me. The more that we hold onto those kinds of beliefs, the more we perpetuate what we're feeling in our minds. So I'd say those are two key takeaways, even though they are high level to pull from this podcast.
Sue: As I'm listening to there, Brian, I'm just wondering if that's what you would say to the Brian that sat on that sofa with the shaking and coming out in a cold sweat all those years ago?
Brian: it's a good question. I think I'm, I'm almost getting choked up to be honest. It's like a long, a long time ago, a lot of pain ago. Right? I think, I would say like something like, you're beginning this journey and it's going to be very difficult, but at the same time, hold onto your beliefs and hold on to, this dogged sense of like, you know, can doism. Right. And. Go back and, and this is where I get choked up. It's like almost go back and tell that kid, like, Hey, I love you.
Sue: I'm getting chills. Just listening to what you're saying, Brian it's been, it's been wonderful to speak to you today. I can't wait to go out and do something this afternoon. In fact, I'm going for a walk after we've recorded this because I feel that you just generated this sense of possibility within me so I hope that you convey that to our listeners as well. If they do want to find out more about you and the books you've written and the blog how might they do that.
Brian: Yeah, best place to go to would be my website. Get out of your head.com. That URL is all one word, no dashes, no spaces there. I always say if you wanna reach out, please do I love having conversations. With listeners and readers, it's one of the rewarding parts of the process. So please know that I will definitely get back to you might not necessarily be within 10 minutes, but again, that is a fulfilling part of the process. I love to hear people's stories.
Sue: Fantastic. Well, we'll certainly put links on the show notes from today's conversation, Brian, I wish you well in the future, whatever the next part of your journey is to get out of your head and share your knowledge and experiences with everybody else in the world. Thank you so much today.
Brian: Likewise, Sue, thanks for having me.
Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra Producer: Sue Stockdale
Information Security entrepreneur Sebastian Rohr talks to Sue Stockdale about why maintaining the safety of your digital identity is important for ones' wellbeing.
As well as providing some practical tips on how to manage your digital identity, Sebastian reflects on the stress of being a security executive, why burnout is a common occurrence for many professionals working in this field, and how to bounce back.
Sebastian Rohr is a serial tech entrepreneur in the field of Identity & Access Management, and Information Security. He is also a loving father of a teenage girl and considers himself an "earthling", despite travelling on a German passport. Aside from his day job in Security, he regularly contributes to Millennium Development Goal (MDG) projects in developing countries such as Ecuador, Jamaica, Myanmar and most recently Pakistan, where he assisted in preparing a digital system for improving the Birth Registration process. An avid lover of nature and the outdoors, Sebastian likes to ride both his bicycle and motorbike and tries to be outside as often as he can to recharge his batteries.
Find out more about Sebastian Rohr on LinkedIn : Twitter : and his background
This series is kindly supported by Squadcast –the remote recording platform which empowers podcasters by capturing high-quality audio and video conversations.
Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report Key Quotes We have definitely become more traceable, and more trackable with whatever we do online. The stress level in the Information Security industry is immensely high. If you already passed your threshold with stress, get professional help. It's definitely a motivation to know that there are so many people out there who want your help. What definitely helps me through through tough times are my three close friends. Sebastian Rohr transcription Sue: Welcome to the podcast. Sebastian.
Sebastian: Hi, Sue pleasure to be you.
Sue: I was really excited when I knew I was gonna be speaking to somebody whose background is to do with information security and keeping us safe on the digital environment. And the question that always frustrates me is how do we keep our passwords safe when we haven't got the capacity to have that memory, to hold all those passwords that we have.
Sebastian: Sue you're absolutely right. That is something that everybody struggles with, and it's so annoying and it's an increasing problem. And I guess that, that I would have 250 to 500 password username combinations that, that I need to remember. To be honest the users should definitely deploy any kind of password management solution. One of the all time favourites, at least here in Germany, in the open source community. You know people always try to avoid paying for stuff that that is about security, it will be Keypath. Keypath is an open source solution. It's been around quite some time. I've seen it in use in corporate environments too, where the organisations actually have provided some sponsoring to the guys who created and maintained the source code. So Keypath, it is or else do get a license for one of those more fancy password savers. I won't drop any names here, but yeah. Do that, get yourself a password management tool. And let me just go two steps further. I learned quite some time ago, that profiling is a thing and that you should avoid using the same username in all the services that you're using.
So do not only have your password manager tool select a password for you, which is the easiest to do because it sort of maxes out the security also. Try to have that tool remember the distinct username that you're using for each services and do not just variety your standard username because well, those technologies that are out there are pretty much able to combine those with a fuzzy filter. So I really recommend if you're online very much, if you're using dozens of services, Get yourself a different username for the different services, because somebody will be able to profile you across all those applications. And then you are definitely a target.
Sue: well there's so many routes we could take from this conversation from what you just said, Sebastian. And it's making me think about our digital identity. And before we dive into to some of the practicalities or what our listeners might be thinking of in relation to managing their digital identity, I want to know a bit about your identity and what got you interested in this subject in the first.
Sebastian: So I must admit that that I'm sort of a nerdy kid of the nineties before personal computers became the thing to have at home. It was those small home computers, like the Commodore C 64 and the Commodore Amiga. I was one of those pretty white skinned guys I didn't live in the basement but I didn't get out much between, let's say 13 and, 16, 16 and a half. Because I was, really in my room and getting acquainted with the technology. Yes. Playing lots of games, lots of games and swapping them. Yes. I was one of those really, really bad guys doing the sharing. So yeah I'm, pretty much in, in the IT sector since like I was a teen and it sort of stuck. It was a hobby. And then I decided against making that hobby my profession.
I'm actually a trained chemical lab assistant. I received vocational training as a chemical developer with a bio. You probably have heard of Nivea skincare, stuff like that. And also ATESA the German brand. The other adhesive tape manufacturer. And I learned everything around chemistry because I had chemistry in my high school diploma as one of the majors that I had. So I wanted to study chemistry, but after that I finished the vocational training, all my manager said. You know what Sebastian in Germany, you have to have a PhD in chemistry to have some sort of career. And I figured in Germany until you get your diploma, which is sort of now the Master's, it's about five years and then another five years to get your PhD. And I figured like now I'm 22. I finished my vocational training another 10 years. Well, I'm 32 before I earn decent money. No, so I didn't go along with that and stopped that.
Sue: So there you have turned your hobby, then into your career.
Sebastian: I took that let's say four year break from computer technology between my nineteen and 23rd birthday. But then I sort of got back to it because during my bachelor's study course, I joined Siemens as a working student as a part-time student and worked in the network services department. I sort of stuck in that business and, I learned everything around internet and networking in the late nineties. So I was definitely a pioneer in that direction. During that time I actually worked in the department that later became the identity management part of the Siemens corporation. They had a product there and I had my first contact was that technology. And it sort of. Well I never got away from that anymore. So I I'd say I've been working in it identity management for 25 years now, which is longer than it's actually called like that. So yeah remembering that sometimes I feel old.
Sue: well, it, it does seem that today more than ever our digital identity and how we manage it is super critical to all our aspects of our lives. And even, critical to the way societies and economies work. I know that Sweden, for example, is leading the way in becoming a cashless society. When our digital identity will be the primary way there, I imagine that people will live their lives from your perspective. What do you see as being, I guess the benefits and also just the potential drawbacks for us moving very much more into that digital space.
Sebastian: So first of all, that's stuff that, we've now experienced for, for the last two and a half years during the pandemic is definitely been a boost to digitalization, digital transformation, especially here in Germany, where I sometimes feel I live in the dark medieval ages. When I compare that to let's say, Sweden, let's say Estonia. And, and the other Baltic states, they are light years ahead with, with their Digital services, especially at public services. I am a, digital citizen of Estonia myself. So, so I have a digital ID of Estonia. I can do business in Estonia and I never leave my chair. I've never been to Estonia.
But I'd actually be able to, to found a limited or another kind of company rent a business like office there without ever going there, which is quite awesome from my perspective, those are definitely the benefits. The downside of that is we definitely become more traceable, more trackable, whatever we do online can and will be logged by someone be it because we are just subscribing to it and, and being a user of it like Facebook they are definitely one of the organisations with the Meta corporation behind that who actually vacuum in all the information about us and our behaviour online.
And being it, not so easy to actually create different online personas and, and having that reverted back to that one digital identity that we have definitely creates some issues because people with the proper technology and skills out there will be able to. Pull up to the surface stuff that we would definitely rather like to be hidden in the darker parts of the net. Let's let's say that. So, yeah. It's definitely something to think twice about.
Sue: So, even as we're speaking so far, Sebastian, I'm getting the sense that. It could be quite a stressful industry to work in. And I'm wondering if you would agree with that and yes, if you do agree, how have you managed stress and has it affected you?
Sebastian: So this is, this is a big chance to speak out loud about that. It in itself, but especially information security and it security is a pitch black dark place to go work wise. Well the bright side of it, I'll never be unemployed. Even if I run down my current company and it goes bankrupt with a snip of a finger, I'll get a really, really well paid salary job somewhere else. In a matter of days? well, the downside of that is the stress level in that industry is immensely high. There was a Twitter conversation going on just last week where somebody was pondering the question, why everybody in security wants to become. Chief information security officer is CISO, which is quite a nice acronym. Same like CIO, like chief information officer. Most people say 'career is over' and well, CISO, 'career is securely over' because you're hitting a dead end there. People burn out in that vertical. Quite quickly. And that's due to the fact that the work environment there is almost for almost certainly giving you a situation every other week where the candle actually burns from both sides. It's like all those critical things that, that happen a new exploit, a new vulnerability comes around and then suddenly you, your teammates, your management is all like running around like crazy. Oh, we need to, to find these systems that are vulnerable for that. We need to patch that.
And it's all super duper critical. And yeah, you are bound to burnout if you do not take care. And unfortunately that is nothing that gets taught at the university or at the college or, or even the school. So I've seen many, many people aside from myself being trapped there and, and being stuck in that really cold, dark place and, and not knowing how to get out of that a dark place, it's it, it's an immensely stressful job. And if you aren't really made for that. I don't recommend going there else. Yeah. Well learn to, to cope with the stress.
Sue: It does sound like a real challenge, Sebastian, and your short comment at the end about learn to cope with the stress. Sounds like very simple advice and yet, sometimes difficult to do. I, I know you have a motorbike and a bicycle. It seems to me that perhaps moving away from the dark place physically is one way that you might manage your stress?
Sebastian: Yeah. So please don't use your car or your motorcycle in those situations, please, please. Any, anything that has an engine in it? Be it an electrical one or combustion one don't I always tend to say that the human as such is, has been hunted by tigers, by lions, by whatever. So we, we have that fight or flight thing in ourselves and walking it off is the best recommendation I can give. I suffer from high blood pressure and it's been times where it was really, really bad, so I could physically feel it that, that there's something wrong. The only two things that really, really helped me or either get out of the situation, literally drop everything switch off the computer or just leave it there. Get out of the office, get off the building, get into the woods into the field, whatever, where there is sunshine, where there is air, walk it off or run it off in, in the evening or in the morning, whatever the physical. Something that gets you there, that that is the way to do to cope with that else. You will never be able to, to relieve the stress level that that's been building up in, the job.
Sue: And in terms of having people to talk to or family members, friends around to support you, do you find that that helps.
Sebastian: yes, definitely. And. I would actually say three groups of people. One is actually your peers and your colleagues because they know exactly where you are. So you definitely have something to, to resonate with them. But that is a bit of a problem. And, and I think everybody can see that because it it's, it's more of the mirror that, that you're looking at.
People like your family, your close friends who hopefully , you did not recruit from, from, from work or, or at least some of them talking to them and getting into, an exchange with them is definitely helpful. And finally it's, it's something that, that is not normalized enough, getting professional help, actually having a a mentor, a counselor a shrink to talk to is definitely helpful, especially if you already passed that threshold and, and are in that dark cold.
Get that professional help. I got it myself when, when I got my burnout three and a half years ago. And it was for me. As an engineer, it was a rational decision. It was really a rational decision. I need help. You know, I'm a consultant. People come to me to talk about identity, to talk about security, and I've always taken that as the proper decision go get professional help. And it helped, I had both, I had both a counselor that I could talk to. And a what's it called a psychologist, right? So, I had the the benefit of having both to talk to, and one of them actually prescribed me some some medicine to cope with the actual situation, which I was able to get rid of like a year later or so. But yeah. Get a good network of friends to talk to have your family and the most important line there is if you are really in a situation where you're feeling depressed to call it out, get professional help. I can just not recommend it more than just saying it out here very openly and very loud.
Sue: Hmm. Sounds like wise advice Sebastian. You mentioned earlier that you could get a job within five minutes. If you didn't have a job today, it's such an industry that's in demand. So it strikes me, there has to be something more than just earning money from it. What does, what does motivate you?
Sebastian: yeah. I would definitely be in a position to say, that's my calling. When I finish an advisory. When, when I finalize a project with a customer and I feel good that I actually made the world a bit better, I took my torch and, and held it into a really dark. Corner and I made all the bugs and everything that's nasty in there go away. And I'm happy. I have a feeling of accomplishment and I go to bed at night and I just. Feel good. The problem is the next morning, at least two people call me and tell me, Sebastian. I went down to the celler and I found a really, really dark corner. And I want you to help me with that or even better, Sebastian. I went out there and I found all my assets are gone or they are, encrypted or whatever.
So for every client I help two more come in and. But Sebastian, can you help me with that? So yeah. As you said, our profession is in in good demand but yeah, it, it gets a little much every once in a while. Yeah. It's definitely a motivation to know that there are so many people out there who want your help. They, they don't only need it. They, they actually want it. And that well if that doesn't give you a boost in, self confidence and feeling like you are, you are helping someone. I don't know what, what does it's, it's just great. I feel needed every time I, I open up my mailbox because there are so many requests coming in.
Sue: Well, that sounds like a lovely position to be.
Sebastian: Oh, it is.
Sue: I also know that you have done some work in, in some of the developing countries in relation to using your expertise. Tell me about that.
Sebastian: So I'd like to say that my nine to five daylight job is helping, people in the industry or in, Germany, in the DACH region with their security issues, with their identity topics and, provide them with a strategic approach. But whenever I do that, I feel like I'm helping, I don't know, a zero, 1% of the world population was the stuff that I do.
And that might me sad. When I realized that that I solve really, really tricky problems, but the impact, which is a word that, you know is, is very important for, for both of us, the impact that, that I have, there is on a global scale. Not visible. I do benefit from the feeling that, that I help this and that corporation or that organization to, to do this and that. But will you read about that in the newspaper with somebody write a Wikipedia article about that? Probably not. 12 years ago I had for me a one in a lifetime chance because I was invited to Jamaica for work was in itself great. Because the workshop I was invited to was late January, early February in 2010. And the organization that invited me was the I A D B the Inter-American development bank, which is sort of a funding organization that helps developing countries close the gap to the Western and Eastern developed countries.
And, and one of those was actually help the Jamaican government to come up with a Jamaican national ID scheme and, and provide a national identity for each Jamaican, which was quite the honor for me. and it was just great. It, it was wonderful to go to, one of those countries and, and be welcomed as, as an expert.
And, and I had like 150 government agency officials and, and representatives sitting in a room listening to me about what they could do to improve all the lives of all Jamaicans, be there Jamaicans living in Jamaica, or actually expats being in the us in Europe, whatever, because the, the national ID entitles you to, to so much like starting with a passport and stuff work permits. You can't get that if you don't have a national ID. And that was a, a trigger for me. And I have done some of those assignments in the last decade. And I just love going to those countries. I just love helping there because the last one was a trip to Pakistan. One of the largest communities owners is like 270 million citizens right now. The projections say that there's going to be 350 million Pakistani within the decade. So the growth rate is really, important. And as Pakistan suffers from one of the lowest child registration rates in the world, it is super duper important for them to have a a working scheme so that every child gets registered. Every child gets their birth certificate so that every child gets school education, that they get healthcare and everything. And that was a project I did with uni. And I'm pretty proud that I was able to contribute my share there. And that is definitely impact. That is for me something where I can put my knowledge and my capabilities to work and actually help millions of people where it is really, really necessary.
Sue: I can hear as you're describing that, the sense of bigger impact that that can bring to Sebastian. Just coming back to one of the things you said earlier, you've mentioned a few times about showing the torch in dark places. I'm wondering what brings you into the light. So if we imagine that that dark place is, I will not imagine it is stressful for you. You're saying there's a never ending number of bugs down there. that need to be tackled.
Sebastian: And they multiply at, at, at tremendous race. Unfortunately
Sue: So I want to look at the opposite perspective to say, what gives you light? What gives you inspiration or what brings you light? What draws you into the light?
Sebastian: Two things. It's, it's definitely my three best friends. We, have a chat group that's that's titled the fantastic four. And, and we just love that because we all live like at at least 500 miles apart. So we all come from the same county. Three of us have been raised in the same parish. One was like 20, 30 kilometers away. But when you're like 30 14, 15, well, 30 kilometers is. Stretch. So we relied on our parents to get transported back and forth, but we've been friends for the majority of our lives now I'm closing in on 50. So I can say that, that I've these three friends I have had for 35 years and more, we actually celebrated our 25th going on a short cruise by the way, which was quite nice.
And, and those three guys. They are the ones I rely most on it's just, it's tremendous. I, I just love how close we are to each other, despite the fact that we rarely see each other face to face, especially in the last two and a half years with, with the pandemic going on, but it's like you can call them in the dead of the night and they will be there for you.
It's it's just what. What definitely helps me through through tough times. And it's my personal support group. I'd, I'd say, and the other thing that actually gives me joy and makes the sunshine is my daughter. She's 11 years old and I I'd sing the English saying, or proverb is the apple off my eye. It's definitely something that I care most. That I have a good bond with my daughter and have lots of activities. I just got back from a father, daughter vacation with her in Spain. And that was just good. We go on father, daughter dates, where we both dress up and I take her out and that's something that we really love.
And I really love that. The age of 11, she challenges me. So we go climbing together and I'm afraid of heights. I have to admit it. I'm, I'm really not the guy climbing up somewhere and feeling like good. It it's, it's really, it gives me the shivers and she's been going climbing with me for like two, two and a half, three years now. And it's always a big challenge for. But I actually feel energy boosted and really high on endorphins whenever the two of us master one of those climbing trials. It's just great. So I definitely get a lot of energy from spending time with my daughter and, and having that bond. This is something I really enjoy most.
Sue: well, just listening to you talk about the people that matter to you, Sebastian. To me it's, you're dispelling the myth about geeks being only having their head in computers.
Sebastian: Yeah, so despite the fact that, that I started out this this little session here admitting that that I'm a nerd or a geek. And I spent my early years in my own room playing computer games. I definitely consider myself a people person, which I must admit. In comparison to, to all my colleagues. I'm definitely one of the more outspoken. And let's say, yeah, well extrovert. Yes, extrovert is definitely a good word for that. And that, that sets me apart from, from the, the typical picture of a nerd because I do know that many of those are good with talking to machines like typing and not so much talking to people. So I definitely have an exception there and I must admit that this is definitely one of the reasons why I am successful in that space.
Sue: Well, I can hear that humor in your voice and that jolly disposition that we're experiencing on this conversation. Sebastian
Sebastian: Yeah.
Sue: So finally, just thinking a, looking ahead, Sebastian, given that I'm sure pretty much all our listeners will have some sort of digital identity in the world out there given they're probably listening to a podcast on some sort of technical device, what should be paying attention to, to manage our digital identities from your perspective into the future?
Sebastian: We talked about the personal aspects of that maintaining your own profile and, and securing your passwords and even let's say diversifying your, your digital ID by using different usernames in, in the different networks. Now let's take the outside perspective let's just wrap it around and say most of those. Technologies that we are using are bound to some kind of social networks, the large ones that are out there. While the younger people use different ones than, than we do. But it's all about connections. We are only small. Pieces of puzzles in there and pay attention whom you connect to the problem we're facing right now in all those networks is there are so many fake profiles and there are actually. Paid actors out there, state sponsored actors agitating and doing misinformation on behalf of political actors foreign states even large companies and, and trying to influence. Not only you yourself, but a whole population of a nation state or all of the Europeans or all of the us citizens.
That is, well, we have that real war going on in the Ukraine between Ukraine and Russia, but there is a cyber warfare going on and it does. Influence us the professional term for that is sock puppets. There are so many sock puppets out there. Tho those are fake profiles operated by special forces of those nation states that try to convince us that.
The reality is a little different from what we see in our media and I, myself almost fell victim to that a few weeks ago. When one of those profiles pretty well made up tried to establish contact with me and was seeking advice and mentoring because that. Well, you can imagine that it was a really, really well looking Asian young woman who had just assumed the position of an it security, whatnot in a company in Ireland.
And soon she was switching the mode of connection from, from the platform to WhatsApp. And after that, she was trying to extract information from me and that was definitely one of those operatives. And please pay attention to that. Protect yourself, protect your online profile.
Do not just wildly accept any request to connect. Do not click on any links that, that you get sent no matter if it's via a, a messaging app or a simple SMS or in a network, always double check because it, it only takes one wrong click and you and your computer and your digital identity can be endangered. Just try to double check where that comes from and, and if that is a real person well, if, somebody on a business network connects with you and this person does not have connections in their own organization, that should raise an eyebrow, said that's odd, like only competitors. Hmm. Probably not a real profile. So it's about the others take care and, and watch out. If there's one last recommendation. I, I can give watch out for your friends too for your parents, for the people that are not so such computer with kids. They fall victim to those schemes quite a lot. And yeah, well that, that is a, definitely a, a thing that I care about. Try to protect your community.
Sue: Well, I didn't almost ask this final question. Sebastian is how can people find out about you? Because I'm not even sure that you want to connect with them?
Sebastian: Yeah. So I'm as I said, I'm nearing 50 of age. So I, I don't do those really hip new things like TikTok and, and Instagram. I do not feel beautiful enough to have an Instagram account, but people can find me on those. Rather old school networks like Twitter. My Twitter handle is w I underscore I N G Ving, which is a, an abbreviation of the course I took in university, but UFS engineer. So w I underscore I N G and else you can definitely find me through the website of my company, which is umbrella.associates. And well, finally I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me there on LinkedIn slash Sebastian war. Yeah. So try to contact me. I'd be happy.
Sue: Brilliant. Well, it's been really informative to hear what you have to say about this dark world of digital identity and keeping ourselves safe online Sebastian, and I've really enjoyed our conversation. And I think the sense of getting to understand your identity as well as a digital identity has been a very interesting conversation today.
So thank you for your time.
Sebastian: Sue. It's been a pleasure.
Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra Producer: Sue Stockdale
Sue Stockdale talks to Abigail Griebelbauer, who decided to start writing and publishing children's books. She didn't see the representation of neurodiversity in books, particularly picture books, while growing up which sparked the idea behind the first book.
After teaching for a couple of years, Abigail decided to pursue a dream of living abroad. Though Covid changed those plans, it pushed her to start writing and publishing children's books. The first book in the series, "D is for Darcy Not Dyslexia" is partly based on her life growing up with dyslexia and is published by The Passage Press which was co-created by Abigail and Cecilia, the illustrator of The Empower Empathy Early Series. 10% of the profits from their book sales go to the Inclusive Children's Book Fund which provides free inclusive books to teachers. The ICB Fund includes books from other authors and publishers. Currently, the fund is in the United States, but the plan is to expand internationally at some point in the future.
Abigail graduated from the University of Evansville with a degree in Special Education and Elementary Education. She met Cecilia while studying abroad at Harlaxton College in England and six years later they started working on publishing children's books together.
Find out via Website : Instagram : TikTok : The Empower Empathy Early Series on Amazon
This series is kindly supported by Squadcast –the remote recording platform which empowers podcasters by capturing high-quality audio and video conversations.
Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report Key Quotes I think education is so valuable and so important, and can help a person grow, change and evolve. I realised if I'm telling my students that they need to follow their dreams and really follow whatever aspirations they have in life, that I have to do that as well. For us it wasn't necessarily changing typical books, it was just adding the dyslexic character into the story. Teachers use children's books all the time. Writing a book and publishing it is a completely different thing than actually marketing the book. Im get inspired when teachers say when they read the book, the kids in the class who have ADHD, their eyes light up Abigail Griebelbauer Transcription [00:00:00] Sue: Hi, I'm Sue Stockdale, your host for the Access to Inspiration podcast that has a social mission to help you be inspired by people who may be unlike. We hope their experiences and insights cause you to reflect on your own perspectives about the world and to learn something new. If you like to read the transcription for this episode, hop on over to our website, access to inspiration.org, and you'll find it there. My guest for this episode number 81 is Abigail Griebelbauer whose experience of lockdown was the inspiration for her to begin her career as an author and publisher of children's books. Abigail didn't see the representation of dyslexia in books, particularly picture books while growing up, which sparked the idea behind her first book. D is for Darcy, not Dyslexia, which is partly based on her own life growing up with dyslexia. Welcome to the podcast, Abigail.
[00:01:12] Abigail: Thanks so much for having me.
[00:01:12] Sue: As I was reading about your background and your experience, Abigail education seemed to be a really common theme in all of the things that you do. What makes education of particular interest to you?
[00:01:24] Abigail: I think education is so valuable and so important, and it can help a person grow and change and evolve, and so I think that that makes a huge impact for every single individual. And I'm imagining
[00:01:38] Sue: And I'm imagining that your own experience of being educated and growing, Has shaped what you're doing now?
[00:01:45] Abigail: Absolutely. So in second grade I was actually diagnosed with dyslexia, and so ever since then, my education journey has. I would say different than probably neurotypical individuals. So I think that that has pushed me to have patience and persevere through a lot of different hardships throughout school, and that's kind of what led me into writing children's books since then.
[00:02:08] Sue: And when you say you're diagnosed with dyslexia, for our listener that may not be aware exactly what that is and how it shows up, can you help describe it to us?
[00:02:16] Abigail: Yeah, so dyslexia is a learning difference that really impacts reading and spelling. Sometimes it impacts a things like knowing you're left and your right.
So it's not just something that affects you in school, it really affects your entire life, but it's definitely something that you don't grow out of. It doesn't change, but you can definitely accommodate for it. And kind of create things that help you move forward, like grammar, checking on Grammarly and Pro Write writing aid and things like that have a huge impact.
And things like maps for Google Maps, I'm sure a lot of other dyslexics use that all the time, regardless if they know where the location is or not.
Sue: And in what way does that help you?
Abigail: So [00:03:00] left and right, like even sometimes I get up to my exit for my off of the interstate and I don't know which way it is left or right because I get them confused. So sometimes even going home in a thing that I've gone home to so many times that I would still get it confused sometimes. So I think just having those Google maps allow you to not have to stress or add another level of, well, which way am I going? You just follow the Google Maps or maps and it works.
[00:03:29] Sue: So that makes great sense. In terms of the practical nature of something like that, being able to assist you in your travels, and I know that you describe yourself in one of the many things that you do as a children's book author. What got you interested in writing books for children?
[00:03:43] Abigail: Yeah, so my background is actually special education, elementary education.
That's what the degree I graduated from and I ended up teaching Full time for two years inside the classroom as a fifth grade teacher, and it really was that second year that I realized if I'm telling my students that they need to follow their dreams and really follow whatever aspirations they have in life, that I have to do that as well.
And so that's kind of what sparked the idea of living abroad. And it actually was 2019, that end of that school year. So it was 2019, 2020 school year was my first year that I wasn't full-time teaching. And of course, that's when Covid happened. So even after interviewing and everything, nothing was really working out and then Covid hit.
So I was really grateful that I actually wasn't living abroad because being home with friends and family was really important during the pandemic. And that's actually March, 2020. As soon as lockdown started, I started writing and started, you know, this is what I wanna do. I wanna publish these children's books because I saw that gap that needed that representation for Neurodiversities. And so I was like, okay, this is something. Is gonna make an impact and that I wanna really accomplish.
[00:04:54] Sue: They often say in Britain that you've gotta put your money where your mouth is. And I suppose in a way that's what you were doing there is actually applying your own ambitions to what you're focusing on. Thinking about it in any typical non-neurodiverse children's book, What would you have to add in to help people with dyslexia or other special needs to be able to accommodate their preferences in a book?
[00:05:19] Abigail: Yeah absolutely. It's a great question. I think one of the biggest things that you can do for a typical book is just add an audio book file if they don't already have one.
Listening to the audio book is really, really helpful for a dyslexic child as they're just reading the book, having. Hearing someone actually physically read it is hugely important. And then for us, it wasn't necessarily the changing typical books, it was just adding the dyslexic character into the story.
I've never read a book when I was little that had representation of someone struggling to learn or struggling to read in the book. I just never came across that. And [00:06:00] so, That's what I really wanted to do with Darcy. My first book was include that in the story because I know there's so many children who are struggling to read and who could potentially feel alone because that isn't represented in a lot of other children's books. And so that's kind of what sparked the idea behind that first one. And since then I've definitely heard many, many people say that they love that part because they can connect with it.
[00:06:24] Sue: And given then that if you're including characters that are struggling to read, how do they then learn?
[00:06:30] Abigail: Yeah, absolutely. So for Darcy specifically, one of her strengths is creativity and art. So we follow her journey along an art fair that she's like working towards. One of the really important things with creating Darcy was we didn't want it to be. Inauthentic in terms of she's struggling to read and by the end of the book she's a great reader because you're not gonna get that in a week.
You're not gonna get that right away. So that was a really important piece to it was to show that she can grow and she can learn, but it's gonna take some time. So her art piece at the end is actually what I would describe as reading could be like for her. And so at the end, it's an open book flat with like all of these beautiful things coming out of this book. So it's showing what reading could be for her in the future. And so I think that that was a really important piece to add. But I think keeping authentically, you know, she is gonna struggle for a little while. And having a really great friend with her Clara and having a really amazing teacher, Ms. Williams, to help her along the way was another piece that was really important.
[00:07:34] Sue: So you're highlighting what a child's strengths can be in other ways in the book even, although they may struggle to read, they bring other talents that then are the uniqueness that they bring to the world.
[00:07:46] Abigail: Yeah, absolutely. And creativity is actually a dyslexic strength as well too. So it kind of is a twofold. Dyslexia doesn't just bring those negative things of challenges, but they also have positives.
[00:07:58] Sue: And from your own experience, so not writing books for children, but from your own experience of navigating the world with dyslexia, what are some of the other challenges that you've encountered over the years, and then how have you managed to get around them?
[00:08:12] Abigail: I think grammar is definitely a huge one with writing and. Just trying to get words out on the paper, which is ironic because I am an author, but I think that Grammarly really has been a huge help in terms of that. If I don't have somebody around. But I also ask for help too, so when there's someone around that can help me, I really just ask them to read it really quickly because that takes two minutes and it would take me probably, 30 minutes to an hour to do that one thing.
Just to read it and reread it and reread it. And sometimes I still won't catch the error even after reading it 20 plus times. And so I think that a huge piece for me personally has been learning how to ask for help. I think that is one of the best things that a dyslexic or any individual who's struggling with anything can do because it helps.[00:09:00]
Get back that time that you would lose, and if you can improve and update those things too, then you're just learning at a faster pace. So I think learning to ask for help is one of the most valuable things that anybody can do.
[00:09:14] Sue: I certainly agree with that. What made it easier for you, or what did you tell yourself when you had to find a way to be able to ask for help more easily? Cause it is a thing that's many people struggle to do.
[00:09:25] Abigail: I think it started actually in high school when I had a resource period where I had that 45 minutes to ask for help, and it was really given to me of like, Okay, this is your time to ask for help. And I saw the value of the time saved after school because I knew that if I had not asked that question during those 45 minutes, I would've been spending two hours on it at home at night.
And so I think I saw just the value of that so early on that it kind of stuck with me, and it's something that I've always just done and I've never really had. Too many people come back as like negative in terms of, Ugh, why are you asking me for help? Typically, everyone's pretty okay with just reading through something real quickly or answering a question, and if they don't know or they don't have time, they let me know and that's fine and I find someone else, or I just do it myself that time.
[00:10:18] Sue: this is just kind of a hidden benefit for the recipient of the person. It's actually providing the help that they feel good too, very often. Exactly. That they've been able to help somebody else, so it can be a benefit all around. Just picking back up on the, getting into being a children's book author Abigail, and you mentioned that one of the ways that children can learn more quickly is to have also an audio book. It strikes me a slightly ironic that you're writing children's books. Why not video or audio or podcasts?
[00:10:48] Abigail: Yeah, that's a really good question. I never even considered video or podcast simply because the reason behind creating the children's book was because I didn't see the representation in the children's book, and so I thought that that was the perfect way of allowing this conversation to start at a young age.
Cuz I think it's really important for kids. Who are younger to know what dyslexia is and know what ADHD is because if they see themselves in these characters, you know, they can go home and they can ask like, what is dyslexia like and talk about it with their parents and then potentially even get a diagnosis in the future to something that they relate to in the book.
And so I think it's something that is just a really valuable conversation and I knew. Teachers use children's book all the time. Being in education, I use 'em as a fifth grade teacher. I love having children's books in the classroom because they're so versatile. I can see high school students using them for various lessons, so there's not really a limit to when you have to stop reading children's books, and that's one thing I love about them.
[00:11:56] Sue: Well, maybe there's an opportunity in the future is to expand into [00:12:00] videos and audio books or podcasts as well. Who knows? Yeah, absolutely. In terms of then, what are your longer term ambitions? Cause I know not only in being an author, you're actually publishing the books too now, Is that right?
[00:12:11] Abigail: Yeah, so we publish them ourselves. Cecilia and I, the illustrator of the books that we have, we work together for publishing a lot of the times. And so a big ambition would be to have the Empower or Empathy early series. To just be on the shelves like any other series in terms of a teacher's classroom, so that kids can go up and just grab a book and then be like, Oh, I wanna see another character, and then go grab another book.
I love the Magic Treehouse series. So something kind of like that where it's like next to those and. Just something that every teacher has in their classroom that children see themselves on the shelf and they can be like, Oh, I'm dyslexic. What is this book about? And then pull that off and get to read it.
[00:12:53] Sue: As you're talking, Abigail, you're reminding me of that entrepreneurial characteristic that really you're bringing to what you're doing. You're seeing possibilities and you're making something happen with many creatives. There's creating their thing, whether it's a piece of art, a audio, a podcast, or in your case a book. How do you then distribute it? How do you get it out to your wider audience so that it can appear on the bookshelves in the schools across America or elsewhere?
[00:13:18] Abigail: That's an amazing question because it is really, really different. Like writing the book and publishing it is a completely different thing than actually marketing the book.
There's a online. School, I guess you could call it self-publishing school, and I've had a coach through there. I've been working with them for the past two years. And the thing I love about that is that they teach you how to self-publish it. It's not about them publishing the book. That was something that was really important for Cecilia and I.
We really wanted to make sure that we publish it ourselves, because we felt that a lot of traditional publishers would make decisions based off of what would sell the best, and our decisions were behind being authentic. And adding that representation. And so we didn't want something to be diluted or to not include some element of the book that was really vital to us.
But a traditional publisher would say, No, we're not gonna put that in there, type of thing. So I think that that was a huge reason why we didn't even. Try to go down the traditional publishing route. We just immediately went self-published and it's been a journey and I've absolutely loved it because I've learned so much and doing it everything by yourself, with your coach, by your side, and all this training and courses and stuff. I've grown immensely in the past two years.
[00:14:34] Sue: It sounds like it's been quite a journey. What have been some of the obstacles or challenges that you've encountered and how have you got around them?
[00:14:41] Abigail: Yeah, there's a lot. Let's see, what's one of 'em? I would say press releases is kind of like a new thing that I didn't know how to do any of that previously. So I was really fortunate in having some people in my life who are really good at checking everything specifically for press releases. [00:15:00] And so I sent that out to multiple local news outlets and things like that. And that's something that I still am going to do with a couple of our future ones.
But I've been able to get in the front page of a local newspaper through that. And so that was something that was really cool of the experience to have to go and have to do a photo shoot really fast with someone. And it was, I think that was November of 2020 or somewhere around that time, So it was definitely Covid, so I had to wear my mask, which has made a huge impact.
Covid is definitely the reason why we started, because I don't think I would've written the children's books without Covid cause it's really what made me pivot and change my dream and aspiration of what I'm gonna do. But it definitely has made a huge difference for sure.
[00:15:45] Sue: Well, preparedness to step into the unknown can take you into places that you perhaps never expected. And sounds like the front page of your local newspaper maybe was one of those. Yes. It was an opportunity that you grabbed. Now you've mentioned Cecilia's name a couple of times and tell us about how you work with her and what both of your roles are.
[00:16:03] Abigail: yeah so we actually met at Harlaxton College during fall of 2014. We were both sophomores in college and we've been best friends ever since. And immediately when I started writing this children's book, I was like, I knew that she was gonna be the illustrator cuz she's an absolute phenomenal artist. And I was really, really hoping that she would say, And she did. And so ever since then we've kind of been on this track together. We have weekly meetings that we set up to update each other on like, Okay, here's where I am with marketing, here's where I am with the illustrations. Wherever we are at those weekly meetings are huge. She's actually in Tennessee and I'm in Indiana, so doesn't sound like we're too far away, but. Mountains, it's an eight hour drive.
It's sometimes really challenging to get to each other, so we tried to do that I would say four times a year, and most recently she stayed at my house for two weeks and we got a lot done. And we probably get done more in person than we do on probably a whole month of weekly calls. We have our pieces that we both are really, really strong with, and so we elevate those and we help each other with the other pieces.
[00:17:12] Sue: Well, I think that's what a good team is made up of is when you bring disparate strengths together to compliment one another. Absolutely. There's also a phrase that is often used is never going to business with your friends. And I'm wondering if you've given any consideration to agreement and how you work together so that you're able to keep the friendship almost separate from the work activities. So how's it worked out for both of you in that regard?
[00:17:36] Abigail: I love that question because I've definitely heard that phrase before and I know that it's not gonna work for a lot of people, but for us it works. We just, I think, have such a great balance between our friendship that we're able to. Communicate with each other in terms of like, if I need something change for the illustration.
It's not something that is negative in her illustration, [00:18:00] it's just that we need to change it. And she keeps me grounded to, in the sense of like, I am probably the one to have all of these huge, big tenure, lofty goals. And she's like, Okay, what are we doing this week? Like, what do we need to get done right now? Type of thing. So I think that balance is really important. So if. Have that balance with your friendship. I think it's okay, but if you don't have that balance and you're kind of both on that looking the 10 year down the line, maybe it's not the best partnership.
[00:18:30] Sue: Yeah. Well it, it's how you navigate those difficult conversations between friends in a business context that can make the difference. Sounds like you've got some of those things covered between the two of you there. With the 10 year lofty goals that you mentioned at Abigail, what are the ambitions for the books?
[00:18:45] Abigail: Right now we sell our books through Amazon, through another printer called Ingram Sparks, and so our lofty ambition, 10 years plus, or hopefully sometime before then, we would love to print them and then sell them on our own website. That's something that is really important to us to be able to give a little bit of a discount and sign the books to. Right now, we don't have that ability to order in bulk. And that that's something that we definitely wanna strive for.
I would love to get a place maybe in Florida, I don't know where it's kind of like a house that we can travel to and have that be our home base, so that we both can travel instead of traveling to each other's houses. We have another location that we can just go to and probably someone working there to ship out the books.
So we would love to hire on even a couple of our friends we have in the back of our head, we know exactly their skillset and some things that they could bring to our team. And so we're hoping to be able to add team members within the next five years and being able to grow and continue publishing more and more children's books.
[00:19:51] Sue: I can imagine that lovely place in Florida is a nice, warm location to visit as well as to do your work. Best of luck with those ambitions. Given that this podcast is about accessing inspiration, I'm wondering who or what inspires you, Abigail?
[00:20:06] Abigail: yeah I think when I look back on publishing the first book, It was really the fact that I knew that I wanted to see this book when I was growing up. So I knew that other children felt the same way and that they wanted to see themselves in books, like if they were struggling to read, they wanted to see that in a character. And since publishing, Darcy, the first one. We have received letters from different schools and going on author visits and hearing the reactions of teachers.
I think that now having those reactions, I can use that as the inspiration because I know that it is making that impact. So before it was really, Hoping for that impact and really like, Okay, this is what I wanna strive for, This is what I wanna do with it. And then actually seeing that come to a reality is absolutely amazing and has been phenomenal. Hearing teachers say, Oh, [00:21:00] when they read about Anthony having the kids in the class who have adhd, having their eyes light. Because they see themselves in that character, I think is just something that will continue to push us forward cuz we know that it's making the impact that we hoped it would.
[00:21:16] Sue: Feedback is so important isn't it, when you get those messages to know that what you're doing is making a difference. It can inspire you to do more of it. Absolutely. You also threw into the conversation then ADHD and as discrete from dyslexia. How do you write about that in your stories? What are the ways that the reader can identify with that?
[00:21:34] Abigail:
Yeah, so for ADHD we have Anthony used Fidgets, so that's something that students in the classroom could potentially be using fidgets. So it's something that they can see, oh, not everyone is using them. It's only when they specifically need it. Anthony does theater for the first time, so it's something that he's moving and he can hyper focus on dance cuz he loves the dance aspect of it.
But then when he has music rehearsals, that's a little bit harder for him. So I think it's finding that balance between his focus. It was very difficult with music, but the hyper focus came into reality with dance, and so I think that wasn't a really important element in it. One of the things that we do with our books is we don't have the word dyslexia or ADHD or the neurodiversity in the story itself. It's actually just on the title. So it's really important for kids to be able to see, oh, those words, but it's also not the whole person. It's just the piece of that person. So I think that's what's something that we strive for within the books as well.
[00:22:41] Sue: You reminded me of another guest that I've spoken to this podcast series recently where we were talking about that very thing about almost the danger of labeling and how sometimes a word can be helpful to be a descriptor and not to judge somebody by just one label, and I think get a sense, that's what you're alluding to here. Is there so much more to somebody than just one label?
[00:23:00] Abigail: Yeah. I think that it's a balance between the two, because I think before knowing that you're dyslexic, it could be seen as like, Oh, I don't know why I'm struggling. I don't understand what's going on, type of thing. So, Having that was really huge in the sense of like, Oh, it's just part of my dyslexia. Like, okay, I don't have to worry about struggling to read. I can really just use the audio book and the tools that are around me to help and then move forward, and I don't have to stress about those struggles. I just know that it's just just a part of me.
[00:23:33] Sue: It's a part of you and not all of you. Exactly. I think is the important message. Well, it sounds like these books are gonna be fantastic for children to read and, and not adults as well, who are perhaps even reading them to their children. I really wish you well with what you and Cecilia are doing. If there was a message you would want to leave our listeners to consider around understanding and learning about learning differences, what would be your message?
[00:23:57] Abigail: Cecil and I thought a lot about what we wanted to name our [00:24:00] series, and I think that that definitely has a lot to do with your question. We labeled it as the Empower Empathy early series because we really wanted to empower that empathy. I think empathy is a huge thing that is so sometimes like. Under seen.
It's not something that's really visible sometimes, but if someone is asking you to read something, like a form at the doctor's office or something, like, they're like, Oh, what is this word? Instead of like, Wow, you don't know how to read that word. What's wrong with you? It would just be read the word okay and like move on and have that Empathy there. I think that that's something that is huge to understand that not everyone learns the same way. Not everyone does everything the same way, and so being empathetic and understanding that just because someone's doing something different doesn't make it wrong or incorrect.
[00:24:54] Sue: Its brilliant to speak to you today, Abigail. How can people find out more about you and the books that you and Cecilia are publishing?
[00:25:00] Abigail: We have everything under our publishing name, The Passage Press, so you can find us at www.thepassagepress.com. Or you can follow any of our social medias at the Passage Press.
[00:25:11] Sue: Fantastic. But we'll make sure we put links to those in the show notes so people can follow on and find out more about you and connect with you. Great to speak to you today, Abigail. I wish you well as you go.
[00:25:23] Abigail: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:25:26] Sue: Well, I hope you enjoyed hearing from Abigail and maybe it's given you some ideas on how you can help other people who are neurodiverse. If you want to connect with us on social media, we are on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn. Just search for access to inspiration. Next time I'll be speaking to Sebastian Rohr, who's a tech entrepreneur working in an information security. And we'll be talking about why there is a high risk of burnout for people working in cybersecurity. I hope you can join me then.
Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra Producer: Sue Stockdale
Liz Benditt talks to host Sue Stockdale about how she endured four different cancers over a period of eight years, and how she and her family adapted to the unexpected situations they faced together. Following this, Liz used her experience as both a marketer and a cancer patient to launch www.TheBalmBox.com – a site featuring functional self-care and gift packages for cancer patients.
Liz Benditt is a senior marketing executive with 25+ years professional experience with a wide variety of brands, products and services including Lyric Opera, Ace Hardware, Hallmark, SONIC America’s Drive In, Blue Bunny Ice Cream, Mattel Toys, Walt Disney World, and Bluetooth. In addition to her role as President and CEO of The Balm Box, Liz teachers undergraduate marketing courses at The University of Kansas School of Business. She is a public school and community service advocate, serving on leadership boards for National Charity League for Greater Kansas City and The Mainstream Coalition. Liz lives in the Kansas City metro with her husband, two teenage kids, and one terrible dog.
Connect with Liz Benditt via Website : Facebook : Instagram : Twitter : LinkedIn
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Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report Liz Benditt Transcription [00:00:00] Sue: Hi, I'm Sue Stockdale, and welcome to the Access to Inspiration podcast, the show with the social mission to help you be inspired by people who may be unlike you. I'm delighted that we're kicking off series 11 with episode 80 already, and my guest today is Liz Benditt, a senior marketing executive with over 25 years of professional experience. And after enduring four different cancers over the course of eight years, Liz decided to use her experience as both a marketer and a cancer patient to launch her website, the Balm Box. I hope you'll enjoy this conversation. I think Liz brings humour, positivity, and practicality to it, describing to me how she and her family adapted to the unexpected situations they faced together. Welcome to the podcast, Liz.
Liz: Thanks for having me.
Sue: Today's conversation I think is going to be a combination of understanding a bit about your professional background and your personal experience. And as you tell your story, I'm sure our listener will understand why both of those things are relevant to our conversation. Maybe we can start with your professional experience, because I know you've got a background in marketing?
[00:01:27] Liz: Yeah, so let's see. I earned my undergraduate degree at Boston University with a focus on broadcast and film. I thought that I was gonna go make movies. I went to work for Disney and in a very creative position and realized that I was much more interested in the business of entertainment at the time than actually making and writing and producing content. So my dad encouraged me to get an MBA, and he was as usual, as parents are want to be, and I went to his alma mater, went to University of Southern California and earned my MBA with a focus in marketing that coincided at the time of like the great big internet boom. You know, where all of a sudden all these really interesting startups and companies were exploding with totally new marketing, branding, positioning, advertising campaigns, because your market was no longer limited to the people in your geographic region, right? Your store could reach anyone anywhere. And so I got really excited and interested in the idea of internet marketing advertising, and started focusing my career in that direction and has been going in that direction ever since.
After getting my MBA at USC, I went to go work at Hallmark in Kansas City, which was a crazy, if anyone that's in the States knows when you're in Los Angeles and you take a job in the middle of the country, people are like, Wait, what? Why? And it was because my mom was sick, my mom had breast cancer and I wanted to be closer to her, and Hallmark was recruiting. It was sort of like the moons aligning, and [00:03:00] I never in a million years thought that I would actually stay in Kansas City. But then I met my husband and we bought a house and we got married and had some kids. And now I realize that, you know, my quality of life here in the Midwest is really, really fantastic, and I'm really grateful that we ended up relocating here. So I worked at Hallmark and a whole variety of positions. I ended up working at Bluetooth for a bit. I think I was employee number three, which was kind of cool. I had to learn how to make my own coffee, like there wasn't an admin to do that. I traveled all over when I was working for Bluetooth, which was fantastic.
Got my very first business trip to Japan as a result of that, working with interpreters, it was such a good experience. Exhausting. Never saw my husband realized I wanted to have a family. Some point thought, I gotta see my husband to have a family. and gotta wanna see those kids. And so realized I needed a job with a little less travel and especially international travel. And so I moved to work at Barkley, which is an independently owned advertising agency here in the Midwest. And then that kind of led me down a career of different positions and different marketing leadership roles. and that eventually takes me to, I would say 2017, I was Vice President of marketing at a commercial manufacturing company, and that was my fourth cancer diagnosis, which we'll come back to and circle around too. I had breast cancer and kind of started to have this epiphany that there's gotta be something more like this is, this is not all that it's gonna be. I wanna do something different. And that's when I thought, you know, I've struggled so much with my health, which we'll come back to. And there is this big market opportunity, really back to what I studied and started was internet advertising, Internet marketing. Why can't I merge these two things together? And that was when the idea for, well why can't I be an entrepreneur? And what would that mean to our family? Going from a two income family to a one income family is no small feat. So how would that work? And it took us about two years of planning and eventually in fall of 2020, we launched the BalmBox.com.
[00:05:07] Sue: You have skirted across quite a few major topics that we can circle back to explore
[00:05:14] Liz: for anyone the moon's aligned, but it took a couple years, right? For all of that to happen.
[00:05:17] Sue: Yes. So as you're speaking, Liz, I'm hearing a hectic lifestyle and travel involved with your job. Yes. And also some health challenges that you also threw into the conversation. So tell us a bit about what happened.
[00:05:32] Liz: we'll go back to 2009. So I was VP of marketing at a commercial finance company, and my weekend time was very precious to me because that was family time. At the time, my daughter was almost three, my son was a baby, he was one, and we were at the pool and with my parents and my son, You know when those one year olds decide that they're just tuckered out and they gotta take a nap and he had fallen asleep on my [00:06:00] chest. He's sweating all over me and I'm just loving it. But I am in a contorted position to kind of keep him in place and not let him slide off cuz I am a little worried about the chunker falling off into the concrete. And so, and I only share that because I was in this weird position and my mom was face to face with my upper thigh and she was looking at the thigh saying there's a mole there that I don't like the look of. You really need to go to dermatologist and get that checked out. And I like any 30 something blew my mom. I don't have time to go to dermatologist, whatever, like that's, I'm not dealing with you. And she was so persistent. She kept emailing and texting and calling me about going to the dermatologist about this mole coz she did not like the look of the mole on my leg. And finally, just to get her to just shut up, I went to her stinking dermatologist and it turns out that it was melanoma skin cancer. So many, many skin cancers are not at all scary. They just get 'em nipped and tucked and whatever. But that melanoma is a very fast moving cancer and it was very crazy cuz here I am, I'm an executive, I work 60, 70 hours a week. My free time is very limited. Everything is highly scheduled. We have an incredible nanny who is the one that kind of throws all these balls in the air and keeps things happening. And now I have to stop everything and get it taken care of and it was so crazy. The doctor called and said, Look, I gotta tell you, you have melanoma.
I'm gonna make an appointment with the surgeon for you to do a pre-op appointment. I don't care what is on your schedule, You need to go like it was this sense of urgency. That was very startling. And so I got that call on a Tuesday, and by Friday I was having surgery. and anyone that's gone through any other surgery will know that that's been in as fast like that. Just, just really, really warp speed. And so to have your whole life turned upside down, the space of four days was crazy. And what they said was, Look, if the cancer has spread, you have maybe a year to live. And if it hasn't spread, No big deal. Just one more sunscreen like , like those are the choices. It's pretty extreme. And so I believed that cancer hadn't spread. We've got it soon enough and I became obsessed with sun hats and sunscreen, and my poor children like look like mummies when they go to the beach because they made them wear like long sleeve swim shirts and hats and everything. So yeah, it was supposed to just be something you kind of get over and move on with, and it was very surreal.
And 11 months later, out of the blue, Same scenario. My kids are one, two, and four. I went to go get a regular mammogram and it turned out that they saw some abnormality and as a result of abnormality, went to the doctor and she know having you go to the doctor and they're looking at your boobies. Then her fingers start checking up into my neck, and I'm like, Well, the, the boobs a little lower, what's going on? And it turns out that she saw lump in my neck that I hadn't felt or or noticed, and turned out that that was thyroid cancer. So 11 months after having, been diagnosed with melanoma. I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer.
And so I was like, Okay, so do I have my surgery in the next four days? And they're [00:09:00]like, well, here are all these pre-op labs that we want you to do. We wanna do these tests and all this stuff. And so schedule your surgery for the next six to eight weeks. And I felt this like panic, like I have cancer in my body, we gotta get it out. Like where's the sense of urgency? And it turns out it's not a very fast moving cancer. And then we have time. And in that moment those the lead up to that surgery. I was very stressed. I just wanted to get the cancer out. And now in retrospect, I can look back and say that was a gift. I had my childcare set up, I had my work projects all kind of squared away. It was, you know, when you plan a vacation versus having to like an emergency, just drop everything and go. It was awesome. Things were much more organized and which was really lucky because as a result of that surgery, I fell into this teeny, teeny, teeny tiny category of patients that this happens to 2% of patients. So it's very rare, but as a result of my thyroidectomy, I became hypoparathyroid, which means that my body does not process calcium like a normal person, and we all need calcium for muscle function. If you don't have enough calcium running through your body, as a result, your muscles start contracting and it starts in your extremities and then works all the way into your body until it hits your heart, which is a muscle, and your heart stops and you die if it's not caught in time, and so they didn't know this, obviously, they let me out of the hospital. I went home, I went to hypoparathyroid shock, was it back in the ER in the hospital for two weeks while they tried to figure out a drug therapy that would get me normal and because like I said, it only happens to 2% of patients, it's not well studied.
There's a fair amount of trial and error in trying to figure out how to normalize calcium function. It took me another probably year or so to kind of learn myself that in addition to all the drugs that I have to take in order to regulate my calcium, I also found that changing my nutrition and diet habits made a huge difference as well. And so that was another one of those clues that look, I believe fundamentally and firmly in Western medicine. I think it's really important, but I also think it's important to take care of your body and to pay attention to some of those more holistic methods. And it's not in either or. You can have both. So I changed a lot of things about my nutrition. Most importantly, I dropped gluten from my diet and I started getting a lot healthier At that point, had joined a running group and ran my first half marathon. The running was also really helpful to me in terms of helping me with my energy and regulating my metabolism. So just all these things kind of worked together and I was doing better. I kind of moved on with my life. Cancer was in the be view mirror, right?
[00:11:36] Sue: you're sounding incredibly upbeat and positive , I'm wondering what your mom was thinking of this, having her being the one that sent you off to get that mole looked at initially.
[00:11:48] Liz: Oh gosh. I mean she owns that. I told you so in like a really big way. My mom is amazing. At the time that I was diagnosed with the melanoma, my dad had been working on this long term [00:12:00] project in China, and he was typically in China for two or three weeks at a time. Would come home for a week and then leave again while in this particular timeframe, instead of him coming home for a week, my mom was gonna go to China to visit him and get a trip to China out of it, which is gonna be really cool. And she was really looking forward to. And so when I got the call from the doctor that I was gonna have to have surgery in the next four days, the first person that I called was my mom. Don't tell my husband that I called my mom first and I said, I can't believe it. You're right. It's melanoma. And she was literally just walking onto the airplane to go to China.
And I'm like, I'm gonna have to have surgery the next four days. I can't believe this. And so she hung with me. She turns to the stewardess and says, Get me off this plane. And she, I mean, to this day, like I get teary thinking about like this is post 9-11. It's not like you could easily get off a plane.
I don't know what she said or did cuz she's incredible. Right? But she got herself off that plane and she was with us and it was amazing because we were in a mild state of panic that whole week. Like my husband thinking about, what would it be like to have to raise two babies, that is his wife. It was very scary. And the beauty of, I think that we can also, in being with a two year old and a one year old is man, those little boogers are need machines. You know, they need naps and snacks and stories and baths. And I think that like the distraction of caring for two littles in the middle of this, just waiting three days for the biopsy results to come back to find out whether or not the cancer had spread was incredibly helpful, and my mom was with us all weekend and I think she was sort of the adult in the room, you know, just it was gonna be fine. She wasn't worried. And I think that that was, you learn from that. You learn to just kind of like have a little more faith. Not in a religious way, just more kind of like in a, the universe is gonna be okay and have a little faith and deal with each problem as it arises, as opposed to just obsessing over what's gonna happen if it happens, if that makes sense. So I think that that set the standard really well for us. Like, Okay. She was calm. It was fine.
[00:14:08] Sue: so having moved through that first set of circumstances with your mom and your husband, support and your family there for you, and then having gone through your thyroid treatment and the unexpected consequences of that, Then we're only halfway through the cancer story here.
[00:14:25] Liz: Those two pieces are so fundamental. One was don't panic until you have to panic, right? That was the melanoma story. And also keep busy, right? Staying busy through that whole thing. Just childcare, work. I had four days to let go of long term projects and working out what was gonna happen and trying to kind of keep my staff in line and making sure my monthly report still got to the CEO. I just had stuff happening that was a distraction from panicking over whether or not I was gonna die and I do think there's a lesson there, right? Like there's some value to staying busy. I think that that was, for [00:15:00] me, mentally, very, very helpful, being involved in the minutia of life, right? And then in with the thyroid piece, then the other lesson there was having time to plan and prepare is a gift If you can do that, it's better because then especially when the unexpected happens, and instead of being out for a week, I was out for almost a month at least I had planned for it at the time. I said, somewhere between five and 10 days. Well, it was more like 30, but because I had planned for that, there was oversight and planning and people were able to react much more competently and with more confidence because I had planned for it.
Same thing with childcare. It was all organized and planned around. My mom didn't have to jump off a plane, you know, like all that stuff was just so much more steady, like there were casseroles in the freezer. I was organized, and I think that that organization was so unbelievably helpful as compared to the frantic nature of what happened when I had the melanoma. And so again, you learn. The other thing that I learned through my thyroid experience is that doctors are not like all knowing seers, especially when you have a really rare side effect. There is a fair amount of trial and error and working with people that are open to that test and learn, test and learn, test and learn, and working with me on, okay, well here are options A, B, or C. Here are what I think are the pros and cons of A, B, and C. What do you want to do? And being part of that negotiated conversation to me was really helpful because I knew what I was looking for. I knew the side effects to keep an eye out for. I understood that there was a choice that I had chosen, and then also taking a little bit more control, realising I'm so tired all the time. This has to be clinical fatigue. I wasn't this tired when my kids weren't sleeping through the night. Something is medically wrong with. And like raising my hand and saying, This isn't right. In fact, when I raised my hand and said, This isn't right to the endocrinologist I was working with at the time, he looked at me disparagingly and said, You know, you're a working mom, working moms are always tired.
And in my head I flipped him off. I didn't personally like, I'm more polite than that, but in my head I was like, Yeah, we're done, And I went and found an endocrinologist that would work with me and I also went to a nutrition expert and said, tThis is something is wrong with me. And so she looked at my labs and she said, Let's drop gluten and see what happens. And in six weeks I felt like I was more awake. And so again, you learn to advocate for yourself. There's no quick fix. And the other thing I also learned about this whole process is there are choices. There are lots and lots of choices in your treatment plan. There's not this like protocol that is pre-prescribed. It's not like to choose your own adventure book, right? Where they say, Okay, well if you choose to go down board number one, then here are the seven different treatments that you're gonna get, it's this constant working with seeing what's gonna work, what's not. Science is not as absolute, I think, as we'd all like to think it is. And that was a big learning.
[00:18:00] Sue: I'm hearing that the kind of practical nature of your thinking, the practicalities of having the casseroles in the freezer. Yeah. The kids are organized, the projects put to bed or delegated to others, and one of the challenges for any of us is when we're going into the unknown, is how we manage the emotional aspect of it. And I'm imagining there can be time where you do go to the dark place. How did you manage your emotional state during these times of uncertainty?
[00:18:26] Liz: I guess I took that note from my mom. I just didn't accept it. Right. I didn't accept the fact that I was gonna die. No one said I was, They said there was a chance I could, so I just, it didn't accept that reality I just focused on, Okay, well here are all the things that I can do to ensure I live, so let's focus on that. I don't know. I learned that right through the melanoma you choose what to focus on. And I chose to focus on living versus dying. And also, again, through melanoma, it's an incredibly helpful to have two toddlers that are just, Mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy. You've got your reason right there. I'm gonna live, It's not a choice. I'm not dying. Yeah. I just, I'm choosing to live and I think that even in the most dire circumstances, choosing to focus on living is more productive.
[00:19:23] Sue: What happened next? You had two other different cancers after the second one, is that right?
[00:19:28] Liz: Yeah, so the third cancer happened in 2015, so I had a nice little five year break there. 2015 I now am besties with my dermatologist who look at every inch of your body look for little abnormality. It's humiliating and awful, and it's super important and you should. And she didn't like this little nudge on my nose. And so she thought, Let's take a look at that. And she took it off and it turned out that it was basal cell skin cancer. So the good news is basal is not melanoma. It's not as fast moving. You have time. The downside was the section that they were gonna need to take was gonna be rather large. And so the question becomes from a plastic standpoint, how do you close the gap in this big hole in your nose? This is when I start to apply my learning and I get a referral to a plastic surgeon that's part of the same practice, and he says, Okay, well standard of care here is we're going to cut and I'm gonna take my.... Take your finger to the bridge of your nose. And we're gonna create a cut all the way from the bridge of your nose, down through your smile line, all the way down to your chin. And then we're gonna rearrange the skin so that it covers the nose and just pull it forward. And then you'll have a scar that goes from your nose. Down your face, down to your chin. And I was like, So I'm gonna be scarred for the rest of my life for this non-invasive cancer. Like really? Is there no other choice? He's like, No. And I was like, Just, I'll give you a call. And so I went and spoke with other plastic surgeons and it turns out that there was an alternative surgery and it was much more complicated. And you know, in the US we have a terrible healthcare system. I will be the first to complain about it, but so it was a much bigger deal to get the health insurance company to pay for it because it was [00:21:00] a three part surgery as opposed to a one part simple surgery.
But in this three part surgery, they go in and remove the cancer from the nose. And then they did this crazy thing where, They cut along the shadow line of the nose. So I do actually have a scar, but you can almost not see it because it's just, it's so well hidden. And then you know, when you like get a chicken and you're inserting the herbs like into between the skin and the meat, that's what they did to my face and I was awake for it. I don't recommend that. It was so weird. It was so weird. But they stretched out the skin. And then they did this like weird gross cover thing that got stitched onto my face and then for like a week I hung out and they waited for the skin to just relax. And then you go back and they stitch it up and as a result you have a much less disfigured face. So again, like I learned right through all of that crazy with my thyroid cancer in particular, and also like with the melanoma, Hey, I have time. This isn't fast moving. Let's just take a breath and see what the choices are. Let's interview doctors and see if anyone has a better alternative. If all three people say, Yeah, sorry, you gotta live with a great big scar in your face. I would live with a scar on my face, but let's just, I can to ask and to see what the choices are. And I took my time and I found a phenomenal plastic surgeon. And then even then, then we chose a date that worked for my schedule. So I was able to, I planned my son's birthday party and we did that, and then I had my surgery. So it didn't have to be so disruptive, and again, I could choose when to do things based on when it was convenient for my personal life, my professional life, and I have a much better outcome as a result. So it was much less stressful.
[00:22:45] Sue: So in light of the experiences that you've had with these three cancers, have you made any changes to the way that you work in your [00:22:53] professional life?
Liz: Do you think that like if you go back to the first couple, I really had to delegate. I had to let go and I think that that was such a good lesson, especially for a new manager when you're in your early thirties and and managing departments. It's new. It was the first time I was really managed. I had that much leadership responsibility and it was really good. I had to let go. I had to delegate and things went okay. And so I learned to delegate, right? And I learned to ask for help and I learned to delegate early as a manager. And I think that that has been foundational, I think, to my overall professional life. And I think that that makes me a better leader in manager.
[00:23:30] Sue: And does that apply also, if you like, with your family and, and in your personal life? The ability to let go to come and accept support.
[00:23:35] Liz: Absolutely. My kids have had such a unique experience growing up, right, with a mom that is sometimes really sick, and I think it's taught them to be a lot more compassionate, understanding that sometimes people are going through trauma that you can't see, and I think that this is such an unbelievably valuable lesson when you experience it yourself. You're so much [00:24:00] more, I think, empathetic as a result. And I, and I see that empathy in them and it makes me very proud. They also learn to be more responsible. Like sometimes mom can't make dinner, I'm just too tired, and they will make pancakes for dinner or order a pizza, or it's eggs and toast night. We call it in our house sometimes is forage night, Like it's every man for himself. Figure it out. There's food in the fridge. And we started that when they were young. I mean, I wanna say maybe when they were eight and ten, like that kind of idea that maybe they need to help pitch in because things were in a weird space right now and it's not business as usual now.
Also, right as a mother has showed me what my kids can do. Hey, eight year olds can make scrambled eggs. It's okay. They're a little runny. It's edible. It's all fine. So things like that I think have been really helpful to us as a family and strengthen us as a. We were just on vacation a couple of weeks ago, and we were on a cruise, roughly the same location where we would have dinner every night next to this really big family. And at the end of the cruise, this one woman came over and said, I've just been watching your family, and I want to let you know. How wonderful it is to watch it, how like your dynamic is so wonderful and I love how easy you are and fun you are around each other. And I like to think that maybe like a little bit of the trauma that we, I've put them through has been part of what brings us closer. So I, I do think there, there are benefits and I do see those, You see how positive I am. It's because I don't think in some way, you know, cancer is awful and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but there are some benefits if you take them. I mean, the other is the strengthening of my marriage. There are so many choices to be had and some of the choices I've made in the past have been in some ways controversial and my husband has just been so supportive and my number one cheerleader and my biggest fan, and knowing like when you have that pressure cooker situation and having experienced being able to rely on your partner like that, it's a gift. Then I know that he's there. I think that those are all the little things. It's not any one thing, right? It's all these little things that you put together that kind of create that foundation for me as both a professional and in my personal life.
[00:26:07] Sue: So what happened about the breast cancer?
[00:26:08] Liz: I got diagnosed with breast cancer in 2017, and the learnings on that were incredible because now I have this chance, I've had these three experiences. So instead of being told you have breast cancer and panicking, I'm told you have breast cancer. And I say, Okay, well, What are my treatment options? What do I wanna do? Let's take a breath and decide, let's interview doctors. And I realize now how unique that is. Most women immediately they hear they have cancer, and their initial knee jerk reaction is, Get it out, get it out, get it out. And so they just jump into whatever the first treatment plan is that's presented to them, which may or may not be a good choice for. Women are so panicked by the idea that they have the big C, that they go and jump into sometimes the most extreme treatment plans. And I think that's the other element of our western medicine. There have not been [00:27:00] great strides in curing cancer in the past 25 years, but there have been wonderful strides in lengthening cancer patients long term life. Now you're gonna have to get into the esoteric question of what is life? What is quality of life? Because there are lots and lots of medications and treatments out that will extend your life or reduce your odds of recurrence. But they're pretty miserable and they leave a lot of lasting effects. And having a moment to choose what is the right choice for you, to me, is so important. And I don't see enough patients take that beat and make those choices. I what I see them do is jumping full force into get it out, get it out, get it out. And so there are lots of women, especially with breast cancer, that are hacking off their boobs. And I don't think it's necessary. You can have a lumpectomy or a partial mastectomy. I mean, you can kind of do more to save your body. So when women here, there's a 20% chance of recurrence and they hack off their boobs, I think I wouldn't do that unless there was over 50% chance of recurrence.
So again, I think that there's a misunderstanding of the nuance in medical treatments and the choices, and women don't realize that they have choices. So there are many, many doctors, as I have learned that air towards the most conservative treatment plans, meaning like the most invasive and many that air towards the least invasive. And so you have to just interview doctors to understand which one is really going to click with your personality and your point of view and what you value in quality of life.
[00:28:28] Sue: So you've actually got choice here about how you move forwards
[00:28:30] Liz: Yeah. Breast cancer sucks. I mean, even having chosen phenomenal doctors, I love both my surgeon and radiation oncologist. I see them all the time. It still stinks. I mean, there's nothing pleasant about any of this stuff. It's painful, it's miserable. Humiliating, having your boobs on display to everyone.Kind of get over it. Especially when I was going through radiation treatment, everyone kept saying, Oh, you're so healthy. You know, you run 20 miles a week, you're young, you're gonna sail through this. So I scheduled all of my radiation appointments for 07:30 in the morning so that it wouldn't disrupt my workday, thinking this is just gonna be an inconvenient appointment every day. And it turned out that I got really sick and I couldn't keep up. And at the time I was receiving so many well-meaning gifts, so well-meaning receiving pink, be ribboned, everything. I have pink, be ribboned, coffee mugs, T-shirts, earrings, head scarves, just all this pink crap. And there is a segment of breast cancer patients that super love wearing Save the Tata's t-shirts and bragging about, I'm a warrior. I am not one of them. That just was not something that I wanted. I don't know. It did not sync with my person. And what I really needed was an ice pack that wouldn't leak through my clothes, or I needed a lotion that would be soothing. I needed a pillow that would separate my seatbelt from my body because that was really painful. [00:30:00] Anytime I got in a car to go anywhere, that seatbelt rubbing against my torso was awful.
So like I needed all this stuff and it didn't really exist. And what I was getting was all. For lack of a better word, pink crap. And I kept thinking, where is the website that's selling all this stuff? Where's radiation relief.com? Where is thoughtful breast cancer gifts.com? And it didn't exist. Not all of the gifts were all this garbage. And so if you are on Google and you're searching for this stuff, the number one things you're gonna see are this boxes filled with inspirational poetry and magnets. And really what I wanted was a freaking pillow and it didn't exist. And that was so frustrating to me. And so then that was the aha moment, like, oh. Maybe I should do that. Yeah. The marketer in me is like, Oh wait, that's a really good idea. And so then I spent the next two years really kind of thinking about what that would be. The Business model itself iterated number of times. But back in 2020, do you remember? Two income, family. It took us some time to think about financially how we were going to live on one income and two things happened. One, I was invited to be an adjunct professor at University of Kansas Business School, which is a wonderful part-time job. I love the students, and working in the university setting is great, but it's also part-time. So it gave me a lot more time to work on launching the business. So the first thing I did as a marketer was I created a survey that I sent out to everyone that had ever sent me an email. I just sent it to everyone and I said, Hey, and could you answer this survey and share it with everyone that you know, because I would really love your feedback. There's no incentive other than just, Hey, could you help me out? And the survey went viral and collected the 600 responses and it was awesome. And the survey went it had two paths. If you'd ever had cancer, you would go on one path where you talk about the different things that you would like to have received as a gift and if you ever had purchased something for someone that had cancer, what did you buy? If you went down that path. And it turns out that my experience was not unique and that when you ask cancer patients, what are the things that you would like to receive as a gift? The number one items are all functional things like lip balm, lotion, fleece blankets, essential oils, things that are really useful, the worst performing items, the ones that nobody wants that got the absolute lowest ratings kicking cancer, tote bags, kicking cancer coffee mugs, worry stones, poetry. And you ask people, What are you buying? People, flowers and food. That's what they're getting is a lot of flowers and food. So they want people to know they're thinking about them. They're spending thousands upon thousands of dollars on stuff that's nice to receive, but doesn't, not terribly useful. And I thought, Oh, okay. I can bridge those two things. Right? That's the market opportunity. And that was the how the bomb box. B A L M B O X was born. It was a 10 years in process and a lot of experience.
[00:32:52] Sue: It's amazing how something as potentially life threatening as cancer. You're describing it as if it's like a great learning [00:33:00] opportunity and that with your business experience, lo and behold, then you have a website and a market opportunity and with such an upbeat, positive perspective about how your experience can help other people.
[00:33:11] Liz: Well, I mean, what are the choices? I think the other thing that we haven't talked about, but like in terms of my whole background and upbringing, one thing that's unique about my history is my grandparents are Holocaust survivors. They met in hiding in World War II, and at the time my grandmother was married and had a son and because she looked like me very, You can't see this on the podcast, but I look very aryan. I have red hair and, and a small nose, well smaller now that it's been sliced up, but you know, I didn't look, I would say stereotypically Jewish. And so they sent her to go find a place for her and her sisters and their children and families to hide. And when she came back, her whole family had been found and taken to concentration camps and she learned at the end of the war, they had all died. And so she and my grandfather met in Poland. They went through this drama. They were in hiding for five years. They eventually got married, had my mom. My mom was born in Poland. They had this crazy immigration story that brought them ultimately to the United States and think about everything my grandmother lost. She was the youngest of five sisters, all who had husbands and children. So this huge family, this doting father, this son, this husband, and she had nothing. I mean, they came to the United States as basically the clothes on their back and she was the most generous, positive person from her point of view. God gave her a second life and she was gonna own it, and she was always just so happy and joyful. And like, how do you not learn from that?
[00:34:43] Sue: Survival seems to be the thread that's running through the family and doing it with a smile on your face and in an upbeat fashion. I'm energized by listening to what you have to say. Liz, thank you. Despite the personal situations that you found yourself in, you've embraced them, your family's embraced them, and your focus now, Seems to me on how you can help others. So it's not just on yourself, it's about how you then pay that forward to other people.
[00:35:12] Liz: I'd like to.
[00:35:15] Sue: I know the nswer to this question before I even ask it, but if there was a listener that's thinking about somebody that they know that has cancer and that they would like to support them, what would your advice to them be?
[00:35:26] Liz: Visit the bomb box.com. The B A L M B O X.com. But here's what I will say is we are still new about two years in, and currently, at least as of this recording, only shipping to the domestic United States. So you can support your friends and family in the us We have not quite figured out the international piece. I would love to. It is for sure in the business plan, but we're a couple years out on that one.
[00:35:49] Sue: I think the whole point of our podcast is inspiration, and I think even if the listener can't get a hold of the Balm Box products, depending on where they're listening from, what I think you have given them, [00:36:00] perspective of how they could support their friends or family members.
[00:36:03] Liz: I think there's multiple ways you wanna actually physically purchase a gift. It's, you know, focusing on things that will genuinely help them versus, you know, it quote unquote inspire them. So just if you kind of have that frame of reference, like what is gonna be useful to them during this particular time period. And then the other is, I really think keeping busy is such a gift. So whether it's through visits or getting you out of the house or let's go for a walk, or we're gonna Netflix and chill together, or just, it's basically kind of keeping your mind focused on something other than your pain, your trauma, your worry. It's that distraction is a huge gift.
[00:36:46] Sue: Fantastic to speak to you today, Liz. I've so enjoyed it. Again, if people want to find out more about you and the Balmbox, how might they do that on social media or the internet?
[00:36:54] Liz: Were on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.
[00:36:58] Sue: We'll certainly put links to all of those things on the show notes to accompany this. I wish you well, Liz, with the venture and with your inspiring story that you have so fantastically shared with our audience today. Thank you for your time. Well, wow, what a message that Liz shared with us. Her positivity and upbeat approach really shone through. Well, as always, if you want to find out more about our podcast series and all the other episodes that there are available to you, hop on over to our website@accesstoinspiration.org or you can connect with us on social media. We're on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. Next week I'll be talking to Abigail Griebelbauer, who is a book author who is writing children's books that feature characters with dyslexia and adhd. I hope you can join us then.
Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra Producer: Sue Stockdale
Sue Stockdale previews some of the guests in Series 11 which will focus on various aspects of health and wellbeing, including physical, mental, and social connectedness. Upcoming guests include:
- Abigail Griebelbauer, a dyslexic children's book author who includes characters with dyslexia and ADHD
- Sebastian Rohr, a tech entrepreneur working in the field of Identity and Access Management and Information Security
- Myrtle Simpson, trailblazer, explorer, and mother who in 1965 was the first woman to ski across the Greenland Ice Cap.
- Liz Benditt, a senior marketing executive who endured four different cancers over the course of 8 years
- Brian Sachetta, a software developer, and author of a book series to help folks overcome anxiety and depression
- Alex van den Heever, animal tracker, and co-founder of the Tracker Academy, that trains indigenous wildlife trackers.
Sue also talks to Elliot Rushton, a new member of the Access to Inspiration team, about his favourite episodes to date.
This series is kindly supported by Squadcast –the remote recording platform which empowers podcasters by capturing high-quality audio and video conversations.
Connect with Access to Inspiration on Twitter : Facebook : Instagram : LinkedIn : Read our Impact Report Series 11 Preview Transcription [00:00:00] Sue: Hi, I'm Sue Stockdale, your host of Access to Inspiration the podcast with the social mission to help you be inspired by people who may be unlike you. We bring you guests from around the world from different backgrounds, different ages, genders, and ethnicities, whom you may not have otherwise get to hear because they are not celebrities or big names necessarily in their industries.
In fact, since we began almost 50% of our guests have been first time podcast guests, and we are really proud of that. What we do aim to show you is that most of the guests have a guiding purpose that drives them, and their focus is on creating an impact on something that is bigger than themselves. They've all made mistakes, they've overcome challenges, and they show up in the conversations as human beings, authentic and real, whether it's a software developer in his thirties who overcame mental health challenges and wants to help others or a grandmother in her nineties, who was the first woman to ski across the Greenland ice cap on an unsupported expedition.
We hope their stories inspire you to transcend your day to day challenges and reflect on how you show up in the world. Think of this podcast, like a box of chocolates. You will find a mix in here and some subjects and guests maybe more appeal to you than others. Well, we encourage you to dive in regardless to try something new and to listen with curiosity and interest, put yourself into the shoes of the guest, what must be like for. Or think about what questions you would want to ask that person, if you had the opportunity. That's where inspiration can come from. When you gain a new perspective on the world.
Turning attention to news about our team. We're delighted that our collaboration with Squadcast continues. Squad cast is a remote recording platform, which empowers podcasters by capturing high quality audio and video conversations that listeners love. You can find out more about them at squadcast.fm. We've also got a new member of our team, Elliot Rushton who's doing a wonderful job on the social media. I asked Elliot about what he enjoys about working on the podcast.
[00:02:29] Elliot: For me, it comes down to two things. The first is sharing those inspirational stories that each guest has, and while they have those similar messages, sometimes the experiences and the stories behind each one really makes each message different. And the second is the opportunity to stretch myself creatively by creating the graphics, the videos that everyone sees on social media. And
[00:02:53] Sue: have you been inspired by any of the guests in particular?
[00:02:56] Elliot: Yeah. Two episodes stand out for me, really. So the [00:03:00] first would be episode 65, which is the one with Jamie Ramsey as the guest. And the second would be number 75 with Adeyanju Olomola and both of them are kind of different reasons as well. So Jamie's episode was the first episode that I worked on with access to inspiration. And I thought it was just quite amazing how passionate he was to keep exploring and pushing himself. Whereas I think a lot of people will be able to associate with the message that Adeyanju put across in her episode, just because I know a lot of people who have had some form of imposter syndrome or have struggled with being heard in their own lives. So it was quite an interesting episode for me to listen to as well, because sometimes I can struggle with that. Getting heard through a lot of noise as well.
[00:03:52] Sue: And on to series 11, our theme for this series is health and wellbeing. And over the next few weeks, we'll bring you a variety of guests whose stories relate to this theme with dyslexia awareness week happening in October, one of our guests will be Abigail Griebelbauer who started writing books for children that include characters with dyslexia and ADHD.
[00:04:17] Abigail: So my background is actually special education, elementary education. That was the degree I graduated from. And I ended up teaching full time for two years inside the classroom as a fifth grade teacher. And it really was that second year that I realized if I'm telling my students that they need to follow their dreams and really follow whatever aspirations they have in life, that I have to do that as well. The reason behind creating the children's book was because I didn't see the representation in the children's book. And so I thought that that was the perfect way of allowing this conversation to start at a young age, because I think it's really important for kids who are younger to know what dyslexia is and know what ADHD is because if they see themselves in these characters, they can go home and they can ask. What is dyslexia, like and talk about it with their parents and then potentially even get a diagnosis in the future to something that they relate to in the book.
[00:05:17] Sue: Another guest I'll be speaking to is Brian Sachetta who is author of a mental health focused book series, and a website titled Get out of your Head. Brian's not a therapist or a psych but a software developer who applied problem solving approaches that he had learned from work to manage his anxiety and mental health issues
[00:05:40] Brian: I would read a book. I would listen to something on tape. I would read a journal article, something like that. And that piece of content would have some sort of strategy and say like, when you're anxious, try this specific tactic. And I would then take that tactic to different events in my life, whether it was that job interview or going skydiving, and I would test it out. [00:06:00] And I would try to say to myself, does this work for. If it does, let's put it in this bucket over here. If it doesn't, let's forget about it, let's move on. So there was definitely that aspect to it, where it was like I was going out and AB testing different strategies.
[00:06:14] Sue: We'll also focus on healthcare in a slightly different way. Sebastian Rohr works in tech, in the area of identity and access management, as well as information. And Sebastian has put his skills to good use, to improve healthcare and quality of life in some developing countries.
[00:06:33] Sebastian: The last one was a trip to Pakistan. One of the largest communities on earth is like 270 million citizens right now. The projections say that there's going to be 350 million Pakistani within the decade. So the growth rate is really important. And as Pakistan suffers from one of the lowest child registration rates in the world, it is super duper important for them to have a working scheme so that every child gets registered. Every child gets their birth certifi. So that every child gets school education, that they get healthcare and everything. And that was a project I did with UNICEF, and I'm pretty proud that I was able to contribute my share there. And that is definitely impact. That is for me something where I can put my knowledge and my capabilities to work and actually help millions of people where it is really, really necessary.
[00:07:35] Sue: And to kick off next week. Our first guest will be Liz Benditt who is one of the most positive and upbeat people I've met recently, considering she's survived four different cancer diagnoses over the course of eight years.
[00:07:50] Liz: My kids have had such a unique experience growing up with a mom that is sometimes really sick. And I think it's taught them to be a lot more compassionate understanding that sometimes people are going through trauma that you can't see. And I think that that is such an unbelievably valuable lesson. When you experience it yourself, you're so much more, I think empathetic. As a result. And I see that it empathy in them and it makes me very proud. They also learned to be more responsible. Like sometimes mom can't make dinner, I'm just too tired and they will make pancakes for dinner or order a pizza or it's eggs and toast night. We call in our house sometimes is forage night. Like it's every man for himself. Figure it out. There's food in the fridge.
And we started that when they were young. I mean, I wanna say maybe when they were eight and 10, like that kind of idea that maybe they need to help pitch in because things were in a weird space right now, and it's not business as usual now also right. As a mother it has showed me what my kids can do. Hey, eight year olds can make scrambled eggs. It's okay. They're a little runny. It's edible. It's all fine. So things like that I think have been really helpful to us as a family.
[00:08:59] Sue: [00:09:00] So there's lots to look forward to in the coming weeks. Remember, you can hop on over to access to inspiration.org, our website to get transcriptions for every episode or listen to our extensive back catalog. You can also keep in touch with us on social media. We on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, or just drop us a message and give us your feedback. We love to hear from you. I look forward to connecting with you.
Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra Producer: Sue Stockdale