Learn as They Grow: Recent Episodes
Loving ~ Gender Open ~ Informed Parenting
Join me, Elodie (she/her) my partner Jon (he/him) and our baby Juniper (they/them) as we navigate parenting. We get together each week to discuss our gender open approach to respectful parenting. Celebrate our success, cringe when the poop hit's the fan (almost literally) and learn with us as we adapt and grow.
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TBH we both felt we sounded a little preachier in this episode than we usually strive for. We were just too excited about some of these gentl—- ahem… “respectful” parenting concepts.
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This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit learnastheygrow.substack.com/subscribe
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This week on the podcast Elodie and Jon watch and discuss a video of a parent who gets it, teaching their kiddo how to skateboard on a half pipe. We take notes and marvel at the beauty of a relationship based in mutual trust and respect. Watch the video here and while you’re there, follow @learnastheygrowpod on instagram!
This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit learnastheygrow.substack.com/subscribe
This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit learnastheygrow.substack.com/subscribe
Jon, playing the armchair therapist role, points out an unhelpful mental load society strapped to Elodie’s back. She tries her darndest to put it down
.
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This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit learnastheygrow.substack.com/subscribe
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Elodie fakes it till she makes it while running on fumes. Jon and baby are fine, they play with rocks. We discuss the strange place we find ourselves in Jbug’s potty learning.
—Transcript to come—-
…. Yall… transcripts are a lot of work. I understand they are very important but whoooooooie! I’ll get it here soon.
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No updates this time. Just our current, possibly outlandish, opinions on gender. TLDR: Gender is sorta like free will, on an individual level many of us experience having it but it's an illusion. lol
-Hey, if there is something you find distasteful in this episode, let us know. We are still learning and we appreciate that our perspectives are limited to our own experiences.
-—Episode Transcript—-
Intro:
Elodie
Hi there, I'm Elodie, she her
JBug
Mama!
Jon
I'm Jon. He/him.
JBug
Papa!
Elodie
and this is the baby Juniper, they them.
JBug
Mee mee mee! Baby
Jon
We're doing our best at respectful and gender open, parenting
Hey everybody. We wanted to break with the usual format today and just do a little discussion on what we think, gender is and
Elodie
currently
Jon
currently what we think it is… and just explain why we think it's a good idea to not assign gender at birth.
Elodie
We know not, everybody's going to parent this way and
Jon
everyone has their own way of doing things.
Elodie
Typically we don't want Learn as They Grow to come across as preachy or prescriptive.
Jon
Yeah, exactly. Not that we're not happy to like answer questions, if anybody has some . Yeah,
Elodie
here's our
Jon
gender open episode.
Elodie
All of our thoughts… our judgmental, judgmental thoughts.
Jon
Yeah, we'll cut that.
Elodie
Okay.
Jon
Okay, let's get to the show.
JBug
Baby!
—Intro Nonsense—
Elodie
So, why are we doing??
Jon
Why are you being so pervy? Why do you want to knowwhat’s between the legs?
Everybody can just relax. Okay? We're trying.
Elodie
Pristine, This American Life quality audio.
Look at this man. I don't know. You pretty pretty masculine man
Jon
If you’re asking, I identify as a twelve-year-old prepubescent.
Elodie
No you do not!
—Episode—
Elodie
Have you given thought to like, what your gender identity is jon?
Jon
I feel very comfortably masculine or like, I feel like boy
Elodie
Yeah? You feel like a boi? Or like B-O-Y?
Jon
Not a man. A boy
Elodie
Are you a dude?
Jon
No, no
Elodie
I could see you as like… The Guy
Jon
“The Guy” from high maintenance?
Elodie
That's just how I think of your gender identity. The Guy
Jon
The guy from high maintenance is such high praise! To be compared to that man. A Joy
Elodie
“The Guy” is how, if I were to impose a gender identity on you, I'd call you “The guy”.
Jon { 2:22 }
Well see, this is why it's all silly to me
Elodie
My gender identity is Petite Retro Farm Femme.
Jon
I-uhhh… okay
Elodie
Every time I tell Jon, my gender identity, I add a new word to it.
Jon
I can't, I can't speak to this.
Elodie
No, it's my identity, of course you can't speak to it.
Jon
Yeah.
Elodie
although I just spoke to your gender identity. I'll let you, I'll let you keep puzzling
Jon
Also, you seem a little bit, like, disappointed with my answer.
Elodie
You know what, I think that you have a lot of privilege to not have to think too much about your gender.
Jon
But again, what is gender?
Elodie
What is it??
Jon
I don't tie my sexuality to my gender. I don't tie my body to my gender. So, what the F** is it? I don't even think it really exists. I think it's just made up nothingness… so that's it's like saying,
Elodie
It’s a cultural construct.
Jon
I might as well say I'm a Virgo, it's like doesn't mean anything to me.
Elodie
No, that's fair. I agree.
Jon
I’m a human
I'm a human who doesn't feel comfortable wearing dresses in front of other people, but I don't think that's because of a gender identity.
Elodie
I think that is your gender identity.
Jon
No, I think that I present as masculine and so, I know that in the current culture I would get pushed back if I were to wear like really girly clothes or something. And so,
Elodie
If I were to force you into a dress. You wouldn't feel like yourself, That you'd be like, oh these clothes, they don't reflect me.
Jon
I- no, no. That’s not what I'm saying.
Elodie
All right, that's fair.
Jon
I'm saying that the way it occurs to me to present to society is just without… I don't want friction, I'm not looking for attention or friction. It doesn't occur to me to wear a dress to the store, but like would a dress feel wrong to me? No, it's just, it's just clothes. It's like there's nothing but cultural baggage.
Elodie
I love that. That's really interesting, and it's a really big question. It's like, I think most people who are cis, don't necessarily know why. Say, like me, you’re assigned, female at birth. And would the girly things always have appealed to me. Or was it the path of least resistance? Was I always rewarded with privilege when I conformed to the society's idea of what gender identity I should have.
Jon
Identifying as non-binary would be tempting almost just to like buck the system as flawed as entirely bull s**
Elodie
Yes, I can see that.
Jon
Yeah. I mean I don't feel uncomfortable, identifying as man. I think I'm fine. There is no dysphoria
Elodie
But you were always rewarded for identifying that way. Because that path was the least disruptive,
Jon
absolute
Elodie
It would be disruptive and we came out as non-binary.
Jon
I was given rules, I did not want do be picked on or have friction so of course I made decisions based one
Elodie
And maybe you even codified your identity around that.
Jon { 5:19 }
Were I raised, like Junebug is being raised, I have absolutely no idea how different a person I would be.
Elodie
Well and if gender is a spectrum, then some of us might fall into a more black and white understanding of our identity. But then a lot of people might be in the gray area like you, which means you would have been more susceptible to being molded and pulled along the path of least resistance and kind of fallen into those societal expectations. It's really interesting.
Jon
Once again I think it's all made up. Like it's a tool for understanding kind of who you are and how to explain that to other people. And so I appreciate that element of it. That being said, you might as I don't even know how you might aswell say that…. anything like: I identify as a goth or really punk. Or anything
Elodie { 6:13 }
Or a Petite Retro Farm Femme?
Jon
sure. Yeah, sure.
Elodie
Thank you.
Jon
It just doesn't. It's not a thing. idk I'm off in the weeds
Elodie
But I believe giving my kid they/them pronouns is going to give them the space to think critically about themselves and have the opportunity to opt into the binary, if they, if they want that. And I think they're just really going to gain a strong sense of self and confidence in selecting their identity because they chose that
Jon
Hell yeah
Elodie
with intention
Jon
And it’s almost like bumper rails on a freaking bowling lane. I'm not giving myself as much room to make mistakes. Like I know that I would make a bunch of mistakes and I still am going to but if I can just give myself the best chance
Elodie
as a parent..
Jon
The best chance and not F and everything up all the better
Elodie
Yeah, I was really surprised at how I really needed to change how I saw my child and I needed to see them as not having a gender identity to begin with, to prevent me from falling into tropes and stereotypes around gender.
Jon
It was harder in the first few months.
Elodie
It was
Jon
It’s actually autopilot now
Elodie
Yeah. Even when I meet other kids out in the world, it's a lot easier for me to deconstruct the identities that I impose on them, based on their gender presentation. That's, I mean, that's just dictated by the clothes that their parents provide for them and, and the way they're allowed to be in the world.
Jon
Hmm.
Elodie
Speaking of clothes, it was really fun taking the baby to the thrift store.
Jon { 7:43 }
Their outfits!
Elodie
Letting them pick out their own clothes
Jon
They’re flipping off the hook. Oh my gosh. I just said off the hook. Oh God. I think that was old when I was in Middle School
Elodie
I'm sure if you were like, “no, their outfits are fire” I'm sure that's old now too
Jon
I’m sure it is. Maybe the right solution is to go so old that it could not be confused that it was actually me. So, I'm just going to start saying things like, “Groovy” and “I'm gonna boogie”
Elodie
Their outfits are radical?
Jon
Yeah,
Elodie
Radical
Jon
radical
Elodie
Bodacious.
Jon
Classic
Elodie
No but like the little the little red Converse
Jon
We're gonna get our language from Encino Man.
Elodie { 8:30 }
I'm sorry, raised in a cult.
Jon
Yeah. Elodie does not get the cultural references. I'll be dropping like Simpsons, or Seinfeld lines or
Elodie
I'm sorry.
Jon
Yeah. You should be
Elodie
born under a rock.
Jon
You saw Fifth Element though
Elodie
I did. Yeah,
Jon
yeah so I mean there are a few like Choice ones that you
Elodie { 8:48 }
All of the Jim Henson stuff, it's like solidly in there.
Jon
Yeah I mean you didn't actually need to watch Seinfeld, you didn't miss anything, it’s really okay.
Elodie
No and like, I do believe that I have this outside perspective, that's not tainted with nostalgia and I can understand these cultural references
Jon
Oh dude, it's all hot garbage. I can't, I can't re-watch anything from my childhood.
Elodie
I'm so Excited to watch all the stuff that JBug gets to have be the foundation of their childhood.
Jon
Dude Steven Universe is sooo
Elodie
They get to have Steven!
Jon
is so Superior to what I was watching. Go Speed Racer, go get out of here,
Elodie
for sure.
Jon
So you want to talk about the gender neutral stuff that they/them the goodness. I think I'm almost fully desensitized to it because I don't really come up that much anymore. That initial push when you first had Juniper and I first went back to work that was probably like the hardest time for me. Just because that was when all these people who know me well enough and know you well enough to ask ask the question and then yeah, and they're bringing this excited energy to you. You have to be like I'm excited to and I'm excited that you're excited but also I've not gonna tell you S** and let me give you my nutshell on why that is and right now, it's all. Now this is 18 months later.
Elodie
I know, I feel like if I could do it all again, I'd be so much better prepared for people's questions so much better prepared to just have the right tone, the right attitude. The right words to say…
Jon { 10:27 }
You know, I was like half embarrassed in tone “So we’re during the very hippy dippy thing we’re not telling anybody the gender” and it came out in this weird way. Now I'm just like, “Oh, we're actually using they/them pronouns for them till they're a little bit older.” and I just don't even think about that. I assume that you either know what I'm talking about or you're going to look into it later. I don't feel a burden of responsibility to like justify my decisions to somebody… unless they want to know. Then I’m happy to talk aboutit
Elodie
If you've got questions yeah, let me know because I will I will get up on that soapbox and I'll tell you know exactly why we're doing it.
Jon
Yeah.
Elodie
So why are we doing it?
Jon { 11:11 }
<> It's just our understanding of gender in the current culture in Zeitgeist is evolving and has evolved over the last few years. Especially and I don't mean that some people haven't already had this perspective, but it's growing in awareness. We're all starting to like, get a little more awareness that oh, hey, we need to chill out on this binary, and we need to make space for individual people to be individual people, whatever that means, and if we saddle them [our babies] with expectations that are from that binary, then you have potential to damage people and not leave space for Trans people and non-binary folks. And it's just….
Elodie
It’s worth saying that throughout all of history throughout all cultures, there have always been intersex people there have always been trans people. Our gender binary in our current culture is pretty intense, and like you said, just starting to really loosen up and just about to
Jon
there's a, there's a lot of
Elodie
Make space
Jon
I'm so sorry.
Elodie
No, you're great. Go ahead
Jon
There's a lot of different ways that you can address that as a parent with a new infant. yeah this is one of the more extreme ways honestly but it's not extreme, it's just relative to the what's considered the normal way of doing it
Elodie
Definitely and our baby might have come with any variety of sex characteristics that not really anybody's business.
Jon { 12:44 }
Why don't you all just stop trying to picture infant genitalia? How about that?
Elodie
That's great idea. Great idea. Yes,
Jon
That wasn't terrible way to say it.
Elodie
Yeah, physical characteristics aside, gender is different. Gender is the way we express our identity. It has as much to do with nurture as it does with nature.
Jon
Yeah.
Elodie
And so, kids generally don't develop a gender identity at all until they're about two, three or four years old, once they've been in the world once they've existed, they've kind of seen the way gender is expressed in our culture, only then as far as what I believe, only then do they actually develop a gender at all. I look at babies and I'm like, you have no gender identity.
Jon
Well it’s just not tied to your physical characteristics.
Elodie
No, it's a lot more complicated than that.
Jon { 13:33 }
We've talked about it recently, you think about personality types, you think about even horoscopes to some degree are just tools for understanding yourself and then trying to advertise to others
Elodie
who you are, your identity
Jon
who am I. How I view myself and what's important to me what's whatever.
Elodie
Definitely
Jon
It's not something that is locked in.
Elodie
Yes, just a fluid,
Jon
what is your way to understand yourself and to communicate, that to others
Elodie
and you're right, that gender has as much about like, how other people perceive you as how you perceive and project your own identity into the world…. be that through clothing or through hair or…
Jon
So we've had a couple of different ways of looking at it. It's more of a tool for understanding yourself
Elodie
At the best of days.
Jon
Oh, yeah.
Elodie
And at the worst of times it's ruled that you apply to others
Jon
It is a cage
Elodie
and to that. Dictate socially, acceptable, or not acceptable behaviors
Jon
Yeah, it's telling you what you're allowed to do, rather than like what feels right to you to do
Elodie
Definitely. And our society has a pretty strict binary.
Jon
It's traditionally been tied to your body and then the role and function you have in society has been traditionally dictated by that and we don't like it, we don't like it.
So what is gender neutral parenting? For how we're doing it?
Elodie
Well, to me, I see our gender open, gender creative, gender, expansive, whatever you want to call it, our gender creative a parent is not assigning a gender to our baby
Jon
Yep, we use they/them pronouns for them.
Elodie
And I view that as, honestly as, an extension of the respectful parenting that we do.
Jon
Yeah.
Elodie
Which is that the same way I'm not going to tell my kid Oh they are…. “You're so smart” I'm not going to tell my kid “Oh, look, you're such a picky eater” I'm not going to tell my kid who they are
Jon
Yeah, we're not going to restrict their clothing.
Elodie
Oh yeah.
Jon
We’re not going to restrict their choices for a toys or not going to restrict what they want to watch… I mean except for like violences and stuff… but that's totally different conversation…. Not based off gender expectations. We're not going to try and regulate their emotions, based off a gender expectation, which you might not see it, but we're raised to treat boys and girls very differently on how they display their emotions.
Elodie
To avoid stereotyping them to avoid limiting them in any way, and to avoid our unconscious biases, we did try up until this point to keep it all really gender-neutral
Jon
and there are like a lot of different ways to do gender open parenting. A lot of people still assign a gender within the binary based off physical characteristics.
Elodie
Yeah.
Jon
And there is… <> look, the world and the system and the culture, it all is what it is. So like I have got no shame on you deciding to do that.
Elodie
Yeah, everyone's got to find their own way.
Jon { 16:38 }
If you're willing to actually use they/them pronouns and not assign a gender and then, you know, tell everyone around that kid, who's going to be in their little village… then it's easier for me to not make as many mistakes and for other people around them not to make mistakes
Elodie
Definitely. It really does help those family members who maybe don't understand why we're doing this. But if they don't know whether or not this kid is quote unquote “allowed” to wear a dress or not then they're just automatically not going to shame a kid
Jon
You can't project, you know, a stereotype of a gender onto a kid, if you don't know… if you don't know then you can't mess up
Elodie
and you can't shame a kid for crossing a gender boundary if you don't know which side of the boundary, they're supposed to be on
Jon
And so much of it is unconscious. And so if you have this, this structure, it's just gonna help. I mean this is my impression and It has, so far, seem to, like, work out that way pretty well.
Elodie
Yeah, I do want to say that a lot of people come at the gender neutral, gender creative, whatever you want to call it, gender expansive parenting from different perspectives. Sometimes that includes what we are doing, which is to use they/them pronouns for our baby and to not disclose what variety of sex characteristics our baby might or might not have
Jon
We can get into, like, why that particular method works well for us.
Elodie
That was our choice.
Jon
It seemed to be the way we wanted to do it
Elodie
but a lot of people that would consider themselves gender creative parents and honestly what they're doing is still assigning a gender at birth but leaving the door open and making it clear to their kid that if they ever want to change their gender, that gender was just that parents best guess when they were born and that gender is a fluid thing. These parents are really careful not to shame kids for crossing these arbitrary gender roles
Jon
That's gonna look like clothing. That's gonna look like toys, specific behaviors, you think about how rough and tumble being okay for boys in circumstances that for some reason, it's not okay for girls and and even though obviously that's all it's all super arbitrary.
Elodie
and I want to be really clear. I think it is valid parenting if you assign a gender at birth.
Jon
Ohyeah. Yeah, no shame. I'm not, I'm not trying to…
Elodie
I think, especially like for parents who are already gender-nonconforming, parents people who are trans, people who are non-binary who are intersex or who have some sort of different example for their children.
Jon
Yeah,
Elodie
they're already showing their kids by their very existence that gender is a fluid thing. Gender is a complicated thing. Yeah people who are gender non-conforming already have to go through the world navigating, how gender non-inclusive it is
Jon
The current world is by and large set up for the binary. We are slowly making space for non-binary, like options, but, you know, as it stands like, most of the toys are still pink and blue, and are marketed as such and, you know, it's all. Yeah, and it's all very rigid.
Elodie
And other things, too, like, all the paperwork you have to fill out around having a kid. Gender inclusive Social Security is not a thing yet. But if you can make space for your kid to have gender creative play, if you're not shaming kids, who are crossing gender boundaries, if you assign a male gender to your child at birth, and then they're wearing pink, sparkly dresses, if you're not shaming them for that. There's, there's all sorts of gender creative parenting that's completely valid parenting. I'm not, I'm not here to say that you have to use they/them, pronouns
Jon
No, no, there are a lot of different ways you can approach it
Elodie
I just see it as kind of incumbent on us, some very privileged, you know, Non-trans Het-presenting folks, I do feel like we need to be making this space for intersex, non-binary and trans kid that using they/them pronouns from birth for JBug, it helps everybody, it helps when we go out into the world to take up that kind of space.
Like cis hetero people should be calling their schools and asking “are you a bathrooms inclusive school? If my child wants to go in the bathroom that's affirming to their gender. Do you support that? Do you support kids who want to change their name or their pronouns at school?” I think we should all be trying to better our pediatricians offices to have inclusive language
Jon
Bear in mind…. We're Super Lucky and we definitely live in, like, a super blue State.
Elodie
No we do,
Jon
I mean whenever you can, and again no shame
Elodie
It just shouldn't be incumbent on the trans non-binary and intersex community to constantly be fighting all of those battles that
Jon
Yeah, on the frontline
Elodie
definitely and and it's really good, you know, if you want to take your kid whether you've assigned a gender to them or not, you know, take them to a pride parade, we should all go to a Drag Brunch together. You know,
Jon
Absolutely!
Elodie
we should all be going out and showing our kids just how colorful the world can be, really.
Jon
Absolutley!
Elodie
There are two main categories for why I believe we should do gender open parenting and one is it benefits our baby and two is that it benefits the world more broadly.
Jon
People know people. People have relatives that come out as non-binary or are moving in, like, a trans direction or have friends who are. It would end up being that they would talk to us and be like, “I get how you're making space for that, now better since this other person has come out to me as being non-binary” or and they just appreciate the space that's being made for that and the normalization that comes with that and it’s one of the most gratifying things that have come from doing gender-neutral parenting for me, oh yeah, it has been really, really nice.. Oh friends at work remember?. I wont, I keep on wanting to be just like specific and using names but….
Elodie { 23:00 }
well, you can use some stories you could just say, yeah, your, your sister's children got to practice using, they/them pronouns with JBug before their cousin came out as a non-binary, those kids were just prepared
Jon
April. At work
Elodie
Representation matters
Jon
Had a neice I think? or an nephe-
Jon and Elodie
A Nibbling!
Jon
who was moving in a different direction and April was just like, “I'm so grateful that I got to, like, think about this beforehand, because I knew you guys. And so, I had to think about all of these pronouns”
Elodie
“And suddenly I was the cool aunt, who already could say them in a singular way.”
Jon
And I'm not, I'm really not trying to like toot my own horn, so much as it's just,it just this feels good.
Elodie
It’s been rewarding
Jon
Yeah, I'm not somebody who makes it out to the protest, like I should,
Elodie
Well you do
Jon
I'm not somebody who makes the phone calls like I should
Elodie
Well you have
Jon
I know I have, I'm just saying, I'm not always on top of it, as I… so this has been a thing where I've been able to feel like we've made a, we've been able to make just a little bit of a difference in nudge the giant meteor just a little bit, to get it on a different course. That feels good.
Elodie
I agree.
The bigger concept of how this is important to make space for intersex kids, to have whatever kind of identity they want and for trans and non-binary kids to have more representation.
Jon { 24:30 }
Well this is mostly for JBug
Elodie
This is also beneficial to our individual child.
Jon
I would say the majority of the decision is to be for JBug. So that That they can be themselves
Elodie
Yeah, I agreed. So, now that we're done talking about the big broader picture,
Jon
in addition to that, it's been really nice to be helpful
Elodie
There are so many benefits to our child when we do not assign them a gender at birth. It just gives kids so much confidence in themselves because their identity is internally generated rather than externally imposed.
Jon
Yeah.
Elodie
So what do I mean by that? That to me means that we haven't given them a blue or pink lens that they start to look at the world through and you know as a little kid conforming to societal expectations, conforming to what your parents call you is a big part of their development
Jon
If you're given a pattern that you're supposed to follow, then you're going to start gauging every single choice you make based off whether or not you're fitting into that pattern, and evolutionarily, that is for security for safety. You want to be safe within the group.
Elodie
For your secure attachment
Jon
If you think that this is the correct path for you, that that is the rule that you need to adhere to than everything is going to get funneled through that.
Elodie
Definitely.
Jon
In order to ensure your security, whereas if you don't give them this rigid model, well then, well then you can make decisions based off what feels right and you know what is what's making you feel empowered and happy in the world
Elodie
And you know, you’re go out in the world and you're going to run into these stereotypes about what a good girl is in our society, what a good boy does.
Jon
Yeah.
Elodie
So when you assign one of these binary genders to your kid, they have to run up against these societal expectations at a really young age and like kids become obsessed with gender very early on because our culture is obsessed with gender.
Jon
Absolutely.
Elodie
It seems like this highly important thing to kids because we are constantly labeling everything as he or she. When a child is assigned, a gender pronoun they just begin to move through the whole world, putting things into boxes of for them or not for them based on what society says, is allowed based on their assigned gender
Jon
And kids are smart.
Elodie
mmmhmm.
Jon
So, I mean, they pick up on patterns, really, really fast
Elodie
And even despite our effort as parents and caregivers to like, deconstruct individual stereotypes for them
Jon
and again there's a lot of different ways you can approach it
Elodie
but it is a more hands-off way. Honestly. There's so many different ways to combat conformity, but it's tricky because that drive to please and conforme, it's a natural part of child development. So of course, we can actively help to prevent a gendered child from painting their world pink or blue, but for a more passive parenting style, we decided to just not assign a pink or blue lens to begin with.
Jon
It's like easier to not mess up that way.
Elodie
Yeah. No, I agree well and then I don't have to like be this annoying parent that pulls their child aside and is like, “I know that your aunt just called you a very pretty girl, but it's really important that you understand that your external appearance is not the most important thing about you…” and it just seems like so much work.
Jon
It's always interesting when people get uncomfortable with not knowing
Elodie
Oh they do.
Jon
It's like this moment of like “but then what if I will say the wrong thing or how do I, how do I guess? How do I guess what to say?” it's like, you don't have to guess anything.
Elodie
Yeah, it’s fine this is just a baby
Jon
you could actually just talk to kid or about a kid.
Elodie
Yeah.
Jon
Well, it's just like hilarious that there has to be this way to talk to one or the other and like, as if you can't just talk to a kid without that coming into it
Elodie
Well and
Jon
Sorry, go ahead.
Elodie
I always try to tell them: this is June. This is a person their name is June we use they/them pronouns until they tell us otherwise
Jon
and go figure right.
Elodie
People do find! They don't have to be like “Hello little boy.” They can be like “hi June, how are you today? It's really nice outside, isn't it?” You know and I think it's kind of a gift
Jon
but how will I know whether or not to call them pretty or handsome?
Elodie
It puts them off script and suddenly this person gets to interact with June in a gender creative way
Jon
Expand their minds!
Elodie { 29:11 }
And most of the time it goes really well.
Jon
Most of the time. There are a couple of funny exceptions, but
Elodie
You can't, we just can't change right now, how gender the world is, and kids will encounter stereotypes. But if they haven't been told which to apply to themselves, you know, to fit in this, this externally imposed identity, then they they don't get into the Habit quite so early, and they'll often think more critically about the validity of these stereotypes because they no longer accurately fit their experience of the world.
I do think that is worth saying there's also the experience of trans kids. You know, gender dysphoria is is a real struggle…
Jon
Gender dysphoria is a product of being assigned into it a gender.
It's unlikely that somebody is going to be trans. It’s a pretty low percentage of the population, not to minimize it and it's still a significant number of people. But it doesn't matter that it's unlikely. If it were the case that I was going to pin a bunch of baggage and that they were gonna have to come up against this wall of like, “I don't think that I feel the way that I'm being told, I'm supposed to feel” and, like, all of the conflict.
Elodie
And I mean, again, you can, you can tell your child. “Hey, I have, I made my best guess when you were born that this is the identity that you will have.” Personally I don't like the way that actually subtly pressures a kid to conform to that identity…
Jon
We are not trying to S** on people who assign gender
Elodie
Totally, that is totally your choice, your prerogative. There are a lot of really compelling reasons why you might still do that.
Jon
Yeah.
Elodie
For me. I don't feel like it is my job to tell my child who they are, it is my child’s job to show me who they are. And it's my job to just embrace them.
Personally, if my child is trans, I just can't… Stand the idea…. personally for me of having my kids say, “Mama. How did you get it so wrong? How could you not see who I was? How did you tell me? I was one thing and be completely wrong about me.” There are a lot of things that are very similar when people reflect on when they were being misgendered by their parents.
Jon
It's important, however, you're going to address it. It's important to make space for that even if you're not gonna, even if you don't want to do like fully gender-neutral parenting.
Elodie
mmhmm.
Jon
The more you steer away from focusing, too much on gendered, it's just in general, it's only going to be helpful.
Elodie
Minimize your gendered language when you talk about other people in the world and you will minimize your chance o,f of stereotyping people.
Jon
and good luck to you.
Elodie
Yeah. Best of luck, you know it’s hard
Jon
The world is set up how it is. It's hard, it's hard.
Elodie
Yeah. So we can talk all day about how we don't want to project an identity onto our kid. And that these two binary pronouns are essentially that it's limiting its putting something on them that wasn't there to begin with. But what would you say to someone who says? “Oh, but they/them pronouns. That's that's just assigning non-binary-ism to a baby. You're still assigning a gender”.
Jon { 32:33 }
I would say, we're not assigning them, they them, they/them applies to everyone. like I can refer to a he or she as they or them as well, and we do all the time
Elodie
“someone forgot their umbrella!”
Jon
“Oh, they forgot their umbrella. We didn't know who it was” completely open
Elodie
“Are they back from the store yet?”
Jon
It's an open category. It's not a closed category. The binary, those are inherently closed categories. You are a man or a woman
Elodie
There actually isn't a lot of representation for non-binary people. So in that it's open-ended, there are so many ways to be They, whereas to be he or she gets very prescriptive, very quickly.
Jon
It is not giving them a box.
Elodie
Yeah, it's not a third box. Yeah, it is a huge umbrella term
Jon
It is, It is a non box
Elodie
Every non-binary person you encounter is going to be uniquely themselves
Jon
Picture, two boxes
Elodie and Jon
and then everything outside the boxs…
Jon
Is Non-binary, it's it's bigge
Elodie
Almost by definition, I'd agree with that.
Jon
Yeah anyway, that's probably good
Elodie
Yeah, I agree. This felt this felt nice
Jon
So what’s up up? What you got on the list? You got a list over there?
Elodie
No that was it, we got it all. Yeah
Jon
Shoot!
Clap of a High Five!
Elodie
So if there's anything we didn't get, I'm just going to record it and sneak it in there
Jon
Oh there is so much more to talk about with this stuff. I've got like, things that went bad, not that, it went that bad, everybody's trying to be supportive, you know, everybody who's trying to do. It’s just complicated when you're pushing up against a system that is so established so ingrained
Elodie
When you raise kids this way, they just, it's amazing.
Jon
I think it's worth it
Elodie
the way it touches, their families, their communities and then, of course, for themselves, the kind of confidence, they have
Jon
I won't pretend it's not intimidating. So good on you for considering it.
Elodie
Well, yeah, totally. We'll have another podcast episode where we talk about yours and my progression. I understand we just talked about the reasons why we decided to parent this way, but what was it actually like to make that decision? And the way we had to confront our ideas of having a kid, our ideas of gender and that path, that journey to get to having JBug and and going with the they/them pronouns
Jon
I love that kid, having such a good time.
Elodie
Yep. So cute in their new clothes as they picked out themselves!!
Jon
Oh dude. I can't, I can't handle it. It was particularly choice articles of clothing: The the pants with the rainbow stripes we got the legit Jimi, Hendrix t-shirt, the hoodie, good stuff but not just that it's the shift from like very clearly like
Jon and Elodie
baby clothes
Jon
to like clothes that look like grown and and it just really changed my image of them overnight.
Elodie
Yeah, you got your first pair of jeans!
Jon
man. I could take that baby to a show. Now we're gonna go to a concert
Elodie
Yeah, we've got Pride coming up in just over a month
Jon
so that'd be fun.
Elodie { 35:55 }
We’ll go to the parade. Will go do some fun stuff out and about
Jon
we gotta wrap it up. We definitely gotta go shower. Thanks.
Elodie
Love you.
Jon
Yeah,
Elodie
good job out there.
Jon
Yeah,
Elodie
you’re trying
Jon
Oh we’re all just trying our best
Elodie { 36:09 }
let us know if you need help, you know?
Jon
Yeah, for sure. Happy to let you know what our experience is anyway with it
Elodie
Mmmhmm, and we will continue to do so.
Jon
Alright that's all for now.
-—Outro Nonsense—
Elodie
this is before we had a baby monitor and April was our baby monitor,
but she was, you know, supportive from the get-go at one point. She came to you and she said, hey, thank you, deeper understanding, my nibbling came out as non-binary and I felt more ready
Jon
Like she had a little bit more information on that
Elodie
“I felt more ready to embrace this identity shift”
-—Proper Outro—
Jon
Hey, thank you for listening. Our intro outro music is by MOOW. Follow us on social media and give us nice reviews. We love you.
Elodie
We Love you
--- End of transcript ---
This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit learnastheygrow.substack.com/subscribe
Elodie arrives home from a birthday party for one of Jbug’s baby friends. We discuss how to talk about pronouns with people who don’t often talk about pronouns.
—Transcript to come—-
…. Yall… transcripts are a lot of work. I understand they are very important but whoooooooie! I’ll get it here soon.
This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit learnastheygrow.substack.com/subscribe
Maybe it’s Jbug’s temperament? Maybe it’s gentle/respectful parenting? This baby demonstrates some pretty remarkable self control and emotional intelligence
Loving that swimming pool, while summer lasts :)
—Podcast Transcript—
Intro:
Elodie
Hi there, I'm Elodie, she her
JBug
Mama!
Jon
I'm Jon. He/him.
JBug
Papa!
Elodie
and this is the baby Juniper, they them.
JBug
Mee mee mee! Baby
Jon
We're doing our best at respectful and gender open, parenting
Elodie
Follow along each week. As this fabulous kiddo, gets a little bit bigger and we all hopefully get a little wiser
JBug
(sounds of frustration)
Elodie
as of this episode, They are 16 months old.
Jon
Okay, let's get to the show.
JBug
Baby!
—-Intro Nonsense—-
Jon
(scoff ) Other people (judgmental tone)
Elodie
Well I should say that like that, my mother my grandmother. Everybody was like
Jon { 0:42 }
maybe we should have kept it at “other people”
Elodie
Okay, you're right. So let's… let's edit all that out.
Jon
You are adorable JBug…
Elodie
And Jon’s got a DadBod… by definition
Jon
I do by definition have a dad
Elodie
Hey, I like your dad bod.
Jon
Hey, thank you…I think? I don’t know…. I question everything, I think I know at this point. You get a little ways into life and you just start screaming “We don’t know anything!”
Elodie
Everything is arbitrary! It’s all made up
Jon
Annnnd you said you've been noticing some interest from the little?
Elodie
Oh yeah. Juniper is interested in climbing on the wall.
Jon
Yeah, that's awesome.
Elodie { 1:40 }
Yeah they've figured out how to get their feet up on there too. They realized that they have to involve their feet not just their hands. They also looked like a teeny tiny climber they were like lying down under it
Jon
like exaggerating their route? fabulous.I think we Put it in… I want to say like four months ago?
Elodie
Yeah. But then we put a couch in front of it.
Jon
It's fun because they looked at it they were curious about it. They would go put their hands on the little blocks on the wall but now they're actually curious about it for its intended purpose. “I could maybe climb that” and we've got a sweet Crash Pad underneath it too.
Elodie
So, they want to get the blinds. That's their goal to get up to the blinds.
Jon
Perfect! They’ll never done ever get that high
Elodie
I was kind of holding their butt today and they totally did
Jon
okay well with an assist… I don't think they'll get that high until they're like
Elodie { 2:33 }
Shall we make a bet?
Jon
Yeah, the usual.
Elodie
The usual on the table right. And I think they will climb up to the blinds
Jon
anytime before two would be a win for you
Elodie
Okay. There you go. Before two you think after two
Jon
Tafter two that they could climb up high enough to get the blinds. To be like on the wall and touch the blinds. Mmm, they're taller than I think. They might be able to touch them from the second foothold. I'll still I'll still say two
Elodie
shall we say, feet up to here
Jon
like a foot onto the third hold up. No, no down one right there. If they can get one foot there and one foot on the one below, I'm pretty happy with that. I know, it doesn't seem like much. You think they're going to be able to? Climb up that thing,
Elodie
yeah. No problem. Yeah.
Jon
Am I being wild? I'll give it one more. If they can get their foot on the fourth one. They can get a foot on that one and one on the one next to it. Yeah. By two
Elodie { 3:41 }
I think I am overly optimistic. I'm excited
Jon
I’m excited though.
Elodie
Yeah, me too.
Jon
It's like extremely gratifying to have them feel so comfortable in their world now. Like in their own body
Elodie
Oh yeah, they’re very agile. Very dexterous little one
Jon
which, you know, they had to take a few tumbles, for sure, to get to the point where they have good reaction. Good response time if they stumble, they catch themselves. Most of the time. It's pretty good
Elodie
Yeah, we had to really trust them to knock their head a couple of times on the bottom of a table to learn where their head was and to not do that anymore. Yeah, I'm really happy with where they are right now. They are, like you say, moving around great in their body and in the space
Jon { 4:24 }
They had such a good movie star fall. Almost felt like it was in slow motion because they kind of just banana rolled back onto their butt, then rolled onto their back to the side, flipped their legs, all dramatically then popped up like, “okay, what happened?” You know? I mean it started out as like a legitimate fall, but they were definitely
Elodie
keeping their head tucked. So they don’t bonk it
Jon
They were going with it.
Elodie { 4:50 }
yeah, they rolled with it. They flipped over. And then, of course, at this point, I'm so used to not reacting too much to it so I'm like, “oh, did you take a little tumble? Looks like you’re doing some acrobatics over there”
Jon
It was definitely unintentional. They actually fell,
Elodie
It was off of their little stool. They fell off of their little stool
Jon
But they handle it. They really grow old really well.
Elodie
No, they did. And I think like you say it looked like someone who was trained to fall, like a stage fall. I guess life trains you to fall really well if you're a toddler. Yeah, but it's not just that, there's an overall maturity, if feels so beyond their years
Jon
Do you want to remind me of the thing that you told me at lunch earlier? But that I forgot what you told me, but I remember that the takeaway was, that was very grown up of them, for a 16-month old
Elodie
Well, first, I want to congratulate them for the pool experience that we had just now They didn't get their second nap in today and we're all going to the pool and usually when they're at the pool, they just get to call the shots if they want to go swim in the big pool, we swim in the big pool and they'll lead me over there today… the big pool had big group of people in there doing their own thing
Jon
and there is some weird bugs
Elodie
You know, the pool here has been so good and so clean I don't want to say it but the for the last week There's been like a little, I don't know. It's like these little baby flies that are in the pool, they're alive, they're moving around
Jon
Ithink it’s the season not the pool. Either way I don’t need the little bugs
Elodie
Some insects have taking up residence and I just don't want to feel like they're in my hair. … if I'm swimming in a lake or a pond, it's different but in a swimming pool. I just yeah. So we're going to swim in the little hot tub. That's a good temperature for the baby.
Jon { 6:36 }
Not a hot tub. It's like cooler than the ambient temperature was
Elodie
the tepid tub.
Jon
It's like it was basically just a little kiddie pool today
Elodie
So we’re just hanging out in the tepid tub and they really wanted to go be with those people in the big pool, they were playing with a ball, and Jbug kept signing ball. They kept trying to lead me over there and I explain to them. “You know, you have two options. We're going to go swim with Papa in the little pool or we're going to be all done. You know, which do you want to do” and they were like “Okay, we'll go swim with Papa” and we got in and we splashed around a little bit and I can tell they just wanted to go swim in the big pool. That's all they really wanted and I wasn't gonna let them and at that point I was saying, “hey do you want to be all done?” And they're like, “no I want more” I really do want more” and I know that what they want isn't going to be satisfied, swimming around in this little pool and then I asked you, I was like, “hey papa, do you want more or are you all done?” And you know you signed you were all done and I said, “oh well me too. I'm feeling all done. How about you debug?” And then they just signed “all done” really clearly
Jon { 7:43 }
“Okay, You guys we can be all done. Yeah, I had a good time”
Elodie
and that was their demeanor the whole time. We got out. We got them undress, we went and rinsed off. and again, they're tired they missed an nap, they're like kind of grumpy but they were such a champ
Jon
It's just like, very grown-up.
Elodie
Not happy. Yeah.
Jon
You know, what was it earlier?I had a cool in earlier… ahh I was making like loud noise. I was gonna, I wanted to put their little climbing wall holds in a little bit different spot. So I was going to use the impact driver and that's too loud, you know,
Elodie
especially in a little trailer.
Jon
Yeah, totally for the behbeh ears. for my ears too
Elodie
Nothing years of construction didn't already damage
Jon
I know, I know…. but still I don't want to get theirs.
Elodie
Nah I get ya.
Jon
But they have their ear muffs that have, like the little stretchy band that goes all the way around their head.
Elodie { 8:39 }
Now lets clarify, that these are the official baby hearing protection. They're not just like winter earmuffs
Jon { 8:44 }
Yeah yeah, they are for this. They’re hearing protection and we've had them wear it before but while one of us was holding them and able to make sure that they don't take them off but if left to their own devices they've always just taken them off for the most part.
Elodie
It’s a stretchy rubber band and ear sensory deprivation. It's not comfortable or normal
Jon
but they're getting a little older now and we communicate now and they ask me stuff. I asked them stuff when you know, we're interacting more but you know they're only like flippin 16 months old and I just said, I just tried to explain it. I was like hey you want to hang out with me? But I have to make this loud noise and it's too loud. It's not safe. But if you wear these, it will be quieter for you and it will be safe but you have to wear these…. and they just got it. Like first try. They're like, okay, you know, and I put the hearing protection on and they just like…. kept it on!. They were stoked that it was working and then I took it off and they were like, no, no, put it back on, what's more? I would like you to also drill some more so that I can watch and experience what the sound of your drill is
Elodie
through the hearing protect
Jon
you know, with the hearing protection working and like I'm with Papa and we're doing this thing and they were just stoked about the whole deal
Elodie { 10:04 }
I had no context but they came running out to where I was
Jon
Wearing their muffs
Elodie
and they were like pointing at them, just beaming and in such a good mood things were happening
Jon
And I love to think about it from their perspective of doing a thing. With the big guys
Elodie
I was listening to some of the podcast audio today through the really nice headphones.
Jon
Nice.
Elodie
Then I put them on Jbugs ears. And, you know, JBug was all excited, “Papa, Papa!” and was pointing at the the right headphone, that had your audio track in it. And kept saying “Papa” I was like, “yeah, Papa, and Mama, right?” And they were like, “Papa!” because they're kind of obsessed with you right now,
Jon
It’s been nice
Elodie
Yeah, it is nice …for you. But then, you know, it was the nice headphones and I really didn't want them messing with it, and they really wanted to keep wearing them and I explained to them “Okay, I need these back. I'm working. I'm doing a thing. Would you like to To wear these headphones instead” and I gave them the other headphones and I turned on just a recording I had of us talking so that they could listen to us on the other headphones and they were kind of not into it and frustrated that I wasn't letting them listen in on what I was listening to on the nice headphones.
Jon
Yeah
Elodie
And I was like here, let me, let me help you. And I was putting these other headphones on them and they got frustrated and they pulled away and pulled their head away and then grabbed the headphones and then kind of jerk away and started, I mean like a little baby storming off with these headphones and I was like oh that's okay. You know that's, that's fine and they just turned around, came right back to me completely independently signing “Sorry”
Jon
big emotions. It’s just very, very mature to be able to... I don't want to like… I don't care! They don't need to be mature, but they just freaking are! They deal with their emotions, really, really well. I’m just super impressed, they do better than I did for sure.
Elodie { 11:58 }
Well I don't know. I think it does go hand-in-hand with us having a realistic expectation of how to respond to their emotions. You know.
Jon
We model, good behavior.
Elodie
Part of it is, yeah, modeling good behavior. But part of it, too, is me just not getting upset over the whole headphone situation. To just being like, “oh yeah, you know what? You seems like you need some space right now. You go ahead, whatever you need” and then they turn around and they're like, “uuhg I don't need this, I’m sorry”
Jon
It is cool though. That they had big emotions that they let that turn into like a physical response and that they recognized that that response was maybe not cool, exactly. Maybe that would upset mama and, you know, I should go apologize You know, that I had these big emotions that let get to me and I know that this sounds like too much analysis of this little 16 months old’s little…. but it's astounding to me!
Elodie { 13:02 }
It's real and you are right that it is modeled behavior for them because just earlier today, JBug took my phone and was off with it and I was like “oh you got my phone” and then you reached down to grab my phone and hand it back to me and halfway through that you realized you were being grabby
Jon
I didn't ask, I just like grabbed the phone and they held onto it and they looked at me kind of affronted, and I was just like, “oh, Man, my bad.” I shouldn't I gotta.
Elodie
Yeah.
Jon
You gotta treat a person like a person
Elodie
and then what did you do? You sign sorry.
Jon
Yeah.
Elodie
No I'm saying you're modeling this behavior.
Elodie
You looked at them and you're like, “oh I'm sorry I didn't ask you for that. Hey, can you give that phone back to Mama?” And they immediately turned around and handed me the phone.
Jon
Yeah,
Elodie
sorry. I didn't mean to be like “and what did you do jon”
Jon
No,no, I was dancing around it because like… I don't know. I only toot my own horn when you're around, otherwise, I don't pat myself on the back on the microphone.
Elodie { 14:00 }
That's why I'm here to keep you honest. I'm here to keep you radically honest about what a great dad you
Jon
Hey Thank you. It's really nice for you to say
Elodie
So good job modeling. Go ahead, pat yourself on the back,
Jon
Alright Pat Pat
Elodie { 14:13 }
Pat, yeah, mmm,
Jon
I love that kid. They’re so cute. Oh hey, I did so good putting them down. They were too tired. They didn't really want to finish the book. They got about halfway and you can see their eyes are like droopy but they like are trying to stand up and walk over to like get down and go back out to hang out with you. And at that point, we have a really good thing where they know that I'm going to set somewhat firm parameters on this: we're not leaving the bed, okay. It looks like I need to help you lay down and I'm gonna help you go to sleep and they'll get a little frustrated. You can hear them go like “uuuuuuhhhhh”, you know, but they know what the deal is and so they don't, they don't hang on to it. So even though there's this initial bit of frustration that like “no, I don't want to do this!" “But really I do”, they do really, they do when to go to sleep, they’re tired. And so at that point, I can scratch their back and as soon as I get to that point, then they can just relax. That frustration was only for like a minute.
Elodie
It was
Jon
I don't know if you could hear them just turn off but, they’re chill.
Elodie
yeah. You're very good at that and I need to take the papa masterclass. Get the baby down
Jon { 15:29 }
You just got too reliant on the boob. It’s too comfortable to just leave that baby on the boob and you can be like you know flipping through whatever on the phone
Elodie
Singing them lullabies. That's what I'm doing. But
Jon
Yeah I forget that you do that. It's an insane amount of work. Dude!
Elodie
So singing lullabies is
Jon
adorable but sometimes
Elodie
It’s like the back scratches
Jon
You’ll put in 30 minutes of singing lullabies and it's like you don't need to do that it's very nice of you.
Elodie
Usually by the fourth song, they're asleep.
Jon
I've heard you marathon singing lullabies to them and in my head I think it's so nice of you but like don't1
Elodie { 16:16 }
I actually do view it as something pavlovian because I sang them lullabies when they would fall asleep on my boob. And now that I'm not using the nurse down anymore, now I use the lullabies instead and it's we haven't really figured out our routine just yet
Jon
Yeah, I don’t wanna throw shade.
Elodie { 16:35 }
No it's not even shade.
Jon
I don't mind it.
Elodie
I want to hear your suggestion. Does it help? Does it not help? I want to look at that, you know, critically. of course I think it helps, usually it's these same four songs and by song number four they're asleep
Jon
that's fair.
Elodie
That's happened both nursing them down and not nursing them. Seeing them down. But you know there are some days that it takes longer
Jon
A board baby is a sleepy baby.
Elodie
Yeah. They're bored of the lullabies.they’ve heard these same four songs…. Are you bored of the lullabies?
Jon
Yes! Yes!
Elodie
That's the real truth here. Jon is tired of these same four songs
Jon
(quietly begins to sing Home on the Range)
Elodie
Is that what you think I sound like?
Jon
No, I'm just doing it very quietly because from my perspective it is usually from another room.
Elodie (singing)
Home home on the Range, where the deer and the antelope play. Yep.
Jon { 17:42 }
I’m canceling this
Elodie (continuing to sing despite Jon’s negativity)
Where seldom is heard,
Jon
that's fair. That was the right thing to say
Elodie (singing)
A discouraging word. From Papa on the podcast today!
Jon
You don’t understand, I sound like an a**whole but I have heard this like, probably like twenty thousand times
Elodie
let's see they are like five hundred and nine days old, mmm, or something like that. And
Jon
Assuming they got, let's just say, let's say they got Home on the Range twice a day. If it's even just like, 1,100 times. That's a lot. That's a few times.
Elodie
Yeah, that's true.
Jon
Although I will say
Elodie { 18:34 }
I'm trying to manifest our home for us. I’m trying to put it out into the universe and get our property and our house built. That's all! come on My Home on the Range!!
Jon
Do you remember that Postmodern Jukebox was like a thing for a minute?
Elodie
That's still works. It still works. Yes. But I haven't used it in a long time.
Jon
When we would do the pass off. We were on different work shifts. You were night crew and morning crew. Yeah. And you would bring baby and I would take baby back in that car with the car seats and you would stay, then take the car that I took that morning.
Elodie { 19:08 }
Shout out to all the tag-team parent-ers out there.
Jon
Yeah, you gotta do what you gotta do.
Elodie
Yeah, it's intense tho.
Jon
There's like a 30 minute drive back home. And the postmodern, jukebox playlist on Spotify… Was that kiddo?
Elodie { 19:23 }
They're still asleep. They just…. They're just rolling over
Jon { 19:30 }
Hey babe. Maybe they’re dreaming
Elodie { 19:39 }
Yep just dreaming
Jon
Thats adorable
Elodie
Oh man the other night, they sat up, their eyes were closed but they just sat up (imitates baby babble) and they were just sitting there for like the longest time.
Jon
Like asleep
Elodie
Asleep sitting up. I sat up and I supported their head, grabbed around their butt, slid them back down. Settle them down into bed. Yeah they don't wake up at all. It was hilarious,
Jon
that’s really fun.
Elodie
Yeah
Jon
They're going to start doing all kinds of little kids stuff. It's really, it's really cool. I mean, it's freaking me out because it’s, you know, it's this visible marker of time passing. So that sucks. But then at the same time, these different stages, really fun. Yeah, their in a great one right now.
Elodie
Yeah. Like you were saying earlier this is the stage that you were most excited for
Jon
Yeah, it's the beginning of it. They
Elodie
now through age,like eight
Jon
They’re a little bit more athletic. I can toss them around a little bit when they get a little bit older, then I can really toss them around and we'll get a trampoline and stuff and also they don't seem quite as frail. You know, they don’t seem like I'm going to break them
Elodie
you mean “fragile”? “They don't seem quite as fragile”?
Jon
I guess you would rather me say that, tomato tomahto, I guess one is more associated with old age. But aren’t old people just big babies? At some point don’t we go back to some version of where we began?
Elodie
Oh yeah, definitely. There's an element of being dependent on others and the community,
Jon { 21:21 }
but just like not having to really focus focus on them, like, all the time, I mean, don't get me, wrong, I’m always watching for choking hazards. It's not that I've turned off my monitor on like keeping an eye on them but I can relax a little bit. They can play around me and I'm not worried about them just from a sitting position falling backwards and hitting their head. You know what I mean? Like there's so many different things that they can… Right now they can just sit at the table on their little stool and their fine
Elodie
There's definitely a phase where they're mobile but no, they're really like we were saying earlier their really coordinated now and you really don't have to worry about them, in that physical sense nearly as much. And yet you got to be careful because there's also big enough to get themselves into a lot of trouble
Jon
No I'm trying to say that. Like don't think that I'm not glancing at that baby every 30 seconds you know makes
Elodie
No I know what you mean too though, it is different they are really capable and right now the goal is trusting them with that capability.
Jon
Exactly.
Elodie
Yeah. Well you wanted to say postmodern, jukebox was their Pavlovianly trained
Jon
just, just five days a week on the commute back up for 30 minutes they'd be getting the same playlist going.
Elodie
Yeah, in the same order same songs
Jon
and it started to like really, really work to put them to sleep to where almost every time I was getting home with an asleep baby, I'd walk them in, they would be in their car seat in the bathroom with me while I shower watching them sleep. Then I could lay them down it was all just working really well. Yeah,
Elodie { 23:01 }
Initially it was like, the first four songs of that album. But then eventually it got to be the first two songs of that album. Mmm. And now if I'm ever driving somewhere and I've cued it up so that it's about nap time when we get in the car…..If I put on that playlist instantly, they just fall asleep. So pavlovianly trained, I'd kind of forgotten about that. I really appreciate you bringing that up because it's a good tool in the toolbox…. sleep training I guess this is what they call it. Now, that's something different. Originally, I remember thinking that was such a silly album to train them to fall asleep to….it was not…. in my mind it wasn’t what I would consider soothing sleepy music, but you were right it completely works.
Jon
It was, what is it… flippin Habits? So funny
Elodie & Jon
Habits?!
Elodie
Postmodern Jukebox’s cover of habits
Jon (singing)
“ Throw up in the bathtub and then I fall asleep”
Elodie
Oh dear… okay
Jon
I don’t care, It's fine. It's fine.
Good chat.
Elodie
Good chat, good chat. Yeah, it was really nice talking with you.
Jon
You too!
Elodie
Thanks. You're doing good job.
Jon
Yeah you too
Elodie { 24:13 }
mmmhmm….and everyone out there, Y'all are great!
Jon
Oh man, we’re all just trying. Just be nice. You know we're all just gonna be nice and everything would be fine. All right, love you.
Elodie
Love you too.
Jon & Elodie
All Done!
—Outro Nonsense—
Elodie
I think that's a topic for another episode, honestly
Jon { 24:38 }
You’re a topic for another episode!
Elodie
gasps your face is a handsome topic for another episode
Jon
Hey thanks, I don’t know what to say no… I had different energy to come at you
Elodie
I know and then I just… threw that back at choo
Jon
Waahwahwaaaaah
—Proper Outro—
Jon
Hey, thank you for listening. Our intro outro music is by MOOW. Follow us on social media and give us nice reviews. We love you.
Elodie
We Love you
--- End of transcript ---
This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit learnastheygrow.substack.com/subscribe
We discuss our very humble home and some of our efforts to make it a really accessible space for our kiddo AKA a “Yes space” and the pure delight that is a ripe strawberry.
A whole VIBE. Our home sweet home, that Papa tries his best to not be ashamed of...
—Podcast Transcript—
Intro:
Elodie
Hi there, I'm Elodie, she her
JBug
Mama!
Jon
I'm Jon. He/him.
JBug
Papa!
Elodie
and this is the baby Juniper, they them.
JBug
Mee mee mee! Baby
Jon
We're doing our best at respectful and gender open, parenting
Elodie
Follow along each week. As this fabulous kiddo, gets a little bit bigger and we all hopefully get a little wiser
JBug
(sounds of frustration)
Elodie
as of this episode, They are 16 months old.
Jon
Okay, let's get to the show.
JBug
Baby!
—-Intro Nonsense—-
Jon
They're so good.
Elodie
See their little brain working, like, obviously you brought home a teddy bear? Container full of animal crackers. Give yourself a little pat on the back. Give yourself a little hug. Yeah.
Jon
And they just like chomped like the face of it.
Jon
I wanna talk about Strawberries and I wanna talk about Yes spaces. Anyway, right now those Supple brighter red really sweet and juicy quintessential, Strawberries
Elodie
Idyllic strawberry
Jon
And at this moment, JBug has the dexterity in their mouth. They have the teeth and it's just like this perfect fruit for them that I don't need to cut up. I can just cut the stem off.
Elodie
I just bite the stem off.
Jon
Oh, nice. That's a good idea
Elodie
I’m just lazy. I wash it and bite the stem off.
Jon
Yeah, like, it's been really fun being able to just hand them the whole piece of fruit.
Elodie
Yeah, I love it.
Jon
Oh man, they can eat those all day and really satisfying for them. You can tell that they love having like the whole piece of fruit and taking bites out and just munching on it
Elodie
Sharing bites with people.
Jon
You've taught them the sign for it and so they really like making the strawberry sign and like trying to ask for more
Elodie
Oh this morning they held the strawberry and they like poked their finger into the the top of the strawberry and they were making the strawberry sign
Jon
with the strawberry
Elodie
with the strawberry like figuring out how this how the sign fits into the world in a way
Jon
Adorable
Elodie
It was really cute. Yeah, see their little brain working.
Jon
It's really fun to see them gain more autonomy, like gain more control of their life. You know and it's like a small part of that but it's just really cool
Elodie
And it takes a lot of trust to give them that space to have that autonomy but… we should watch that YouTube video on how to dislodge something again. You know, just brush up on it.
Jon
A refresher. So tthis was probably like a week ago or something that I just gave them one. Just wanted to see and they just handled it
Elodie
I mean When they were like six or seven months old, we let them have a whole strawberry then too, because they were just gums back then. And then obviously, as they get a year old, you chop them up, pretty fine.
Jon
Yeah.
Elodie
But JBug looks at our food and then they look at their little chopped up little bites, and I can tell they're, like, kind of jealous that I'm biting into a whole sandwich. They want the big thing to chomp on.
Jon
which they don't have the molars yet. So like there's a It's there's some stuff that they can do that with. What was it, they grabbed your piece of pizza and they just chomped the face of it, they didn't stick the pointy end in they just took the soft bit of it. They loved it.
Elodie
They end up with a mouthful of cheese?
Jon
Yeah Cheese and sauce and the soft bread and yeah. They ate it though. They were down. Honestly, I'm less worried about them chocking when we're actually just eating, we're there we can see what's happening. it's more like if they're off doing their own thing and I'm doing dishes or something. That's when I’ve got to keep the little timer in the back of your head. You know. Throw some eyes their direction, every
Elodie
30 seconds
Jon
I was gonna say 60 seconds but yeah yeah yeah be listening for the sounds they're making in the background make sure that
Elodie
That they’re making sounds
Jon
Yeah. but if things are quiet you check a little more often speaking of which it's been really fun. We've been trying to make the space more approachable for them.
Elodie
Yeah.
Jon
I can’t remember if we've talked about where we're currently living, right now. So we were going to be building a house and that was extremely tight on budget and everything. We think we could make it happen and so we started getting this property. Anyway, we bought a trailer. That is not too bad It's like a 2016.
Elodie
Shout out to anyone experiencing housing and insecurity with the rental crisis right now but we just couldn't get into a rental. We applied at a bunch of places
Jon
Especially not for the money that we were talking about. So like financially, this turned out to be the right decision but it is initially like the in-between short term for getting a house built and then we had some complications with the water board. And yeah, there was a fire, some infrastructure got damaged. Anyway,
Elodie
So we are not allowed to build on our property yet
Jon
We get to wait.
Elodie
Yeah we dream of right now.
Jon
So now since we're going to be in this for a little bit longer, yeah it's not bad. I'm good with it. We decided. Hey, you know, I think we could make this space cuter and more accessible for Juniper. Yeah,
Elodie
yeah. I really like that you used the word accessible because accessibility is really at the Crux of it. If you want to respect someone, you make the world something they can navigate.
Jon
Yeah. Mhm. So we took out some of the bench seating and the table and we took out the couches that were like the fold-out pulled out beds, like we're good. We'd rather have just the space open. Make it just nice
Elodie
I just want Jbug to be able to run around a little bit inside.
Jon
Yeah, totally. So now it's like looking pretty good we’re throwing some paint up. But one of the coolest things and this was your idea was to have low on the floor seating, I'm not sure what the
Elodie
Yeah, floor cushions, floor sofas, a low table, that JBug can actually sit at and eat their food and get up on their own accord when they're done eating
Jon
Like Japanese tea table style.
Elodie
Yeah. And is this really my idea or should we shout out Janet Lansbury, or RIE parenting.These are Concepts that are definitely out there that I, of course, picked up. And was like, no, this is really important to me that we get them out of their high chair, that we get them, having that autonomy to get themselves up and down at the table.
Jon
So, they've got large somewhat cushioned platforms to get up into the bed so they can get up and down from the bed. And we don't have to worry about them falling too far. But it's basically like the whole Space is now J bug friendly like they can sit on the couch easily. That is not a lot of room to fall or climb up anywhere. And also you were telling me that they're feeling kind of restricted in their high chair. Yeah. They felt like they were being locked in,
Elodie
They would sign “all done” but they weren't really done. They'd want to keep eating but they were done being trapped and then they'd sit on my lap at the table and just munch away and continue eating. And when they were full, they got up and walked away and I just it's really important to me that we preserve their internal satiety cues. That they feel hunger that they feel fullness that they recognize that, and they have that internal communication with self and that's definitely something that I was raised to eat everything on my plate and not want more, and it just was very external. My, my eating programming. And so, it's something I am really protective of in JBug. I'm not controlling what they eat. I bring food out when it's time to eat, and I let them tell me when they're hungry and I'll make them food. It's not as regimented as I thought it would be like, obviously you brought home a teddy bear container full of animal crackers
Jon
It was such a good buy.
Elodie
I know.
Jon
Okay, we didn't need that many animal crackers. But yeah, they got me with the teddy bear shaped clear, plastic container. And as soon as I brought that in, that kid just got all excited and they were given the bear hug,
Elodie
They wrapped their arms around the teddy bear.
Jon
They're tub of animal crackers.
Elodie
They started rocking it. Like a baby.
Jon
Yeah, so cute.
Elodie
Yeah. And I think them learning to get the lid on and off is a really good puzzle for them right now. With some motivation behind it. I actually really like that they're going to not have that food scarcity, either. That I kind of had. Yeah, I was telling you when I was a kid, I remember getting those animal crackers. And loving them, but it was a really restricted thing. So something looks really satisfying for me to watch them reach their hand in and touch the entire top layer of crackers and run their little baby fingers through these knobbly cookies.
Jon
That's really fun.
Elodie
Made me really happy. So that's all for now, folks.
Jon
Yeah, it's looking like my brain just turned off.
Elodie
Yep, we love you. We'll talk to you later.
Jon { 9:59 }
Yeah, these are updates things happening. Babies growing, getting more self-reliant. Gaining skills, enjoying their space, making their space for them
Elodie
Making their space for them.
Jon
although I gotta say, making this space more comfortable for Jbug has made the space super comfortable for me like yeah, really, really nice. We made that space more open and more accessible for our kiddo and it made it more open and accessible for us. You know it feels good on my brain.
Elodie
give yourself a little pat on the back.. give yourself a Hug. Yeah.
Jon { 10:36 }
Alright. Hey, good luck everybody. Yeah, let's keep a keep plugging along.
Elodie
Thanks for listening to our updates.
Jon
Yeah, love y'all.
Elodie
Love you too
Jon
Byyyyyyyeee
Outro Nonsense
Jon
Meandering BS. rabbit hole into a rabbit hole into rabbit hole.
I'm excited to like see how it goes and let them have a little bit more freedom and autonomy on the being at the table and being done and you know,
Elodie
but when you do make the world accessible, it's easier for everyone to navigate
Jon { 11:11 }
building regulations that were going to make the doors wide enough and open the right way and that all these things
Elodie
It benefits everyone.
Jon It benefits everyone
Elodie
And little ones too!
Jon
Anyway, this is just like a little microcosm of that.
Jon
Hey, thank you for listening. Our intro outro music is by MOOW. Follow us on social media and give us nice reviews. We love you.
Elodie
We Love you
--- End of transcript ---
--- Episode 2 -- Strawberries and Yes Spaces.wav ---
This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit learnastheygrow.substack.com/subscribe
Elodie surprises Jon with some baby development caught on film. Jon reacts to this and the general delight of arriving home mid baby bubble party!
Mama: I hadn’t realized how versatile a bubble wand is. Sure you can blow bubbles with them, but also catch bubbles! For even more fun hold a bubble wand directly in front of a bubble machine and see what magic happens!
Episode Transcript
Intro:
Elodie
Hi there, I'm Elodie, she/her
JBug
Mama!
Jon
I'm Jon he/him
JBug
Papa!
Elodie
And this is the baby Juniper, they them.
JBug
Mee mee mee! Baby
Jon
We're doing our best at respectful and gender open, parenting.
Elodie
Follow along each week. As this fabulous kiddo, gets a little bit bigger and we all hopefully get a little wiser
JBug
(sounds of baby frustration)
Elodie
as of this episode, They are 16 months old.
Jon
Okay, let's get to the show.
JBug
Baby!
Intro Nonsense:
Jon
I think you think I can probably hear you through that monitor
Elodie
Oh, you can't okay. One second,
Jon
But I definitely can’t
Elodie
But what could it possibly be
Jon { 0:43 }
I’m just gonna give it a tinsy tooboooh just a little pooof… okay, cool…… I come across as a little bit snobby right now. We're losing audience Elodie
Elodie
Noo, we'll cut this out. They won't…
Jon
pay no attention, pay, no attention to what we're talking about. Yeah,
Elodie
I know my waveforms are pretty sexy
Jon
ahhhh, Coffee in hand
Jon
Uuuuuhhh Elodie
Elodie
Jon
Jon
How was that kid today
Elodie { 1:27 }
Oh my gosh, where do I even start?
Jon
Yeah?
Elodie
Yeah
Jon
I got home and I walked into a bubble party.
Elodie
There was a bubble party happening. Yeah
Jon
Straight up bubble machine ripping and roaring bubbles everywhere. Jbug, no shirt on… in my memory of them, they had sunglasses on
Elodie
Yeah, well, we had just come in from inside. So they were outside, just in their little shorts in their socks, and their shoes, their hat, and their sunnies, big old naked belly and we'd been walking around doing some outside chores and then we came inside and had a bubble party. So, The sunnies were there, they had been putting them on and taking them off and they had been doing that themselves.
Jon
The whole scene was pretty spectacular.
Elodie
Thank you. No, we try to have a magical time during the day. We do, we try to keep it magical up in here. There was this fun time today where… I know this is going to seem really silly. We need to do a whole conversation around potty stuff but there was a time today where I was distracted; I was trying to fill out the paperwork to finally get their birth certificate, which is something I have a closing window of time when it is easy to do
Jon { 2:37 }
pay no attention, pay no attention to what we are talking about
Elodie
Oh my gosh, no, it is a whole thing with the county office that you go to to get their birth certificate, doesn't do that anymore and they have these mobile birth certificate days where the van comes and issues you your birth certificate… It’s a mess it’s a weird, weird thing. So I'm just going to apply through the mail, been meaning to do it, but I was distracted. I wasn't paying attention to Jbug and then they ran over to me to let me know that they had gone potty.
Jon
Oh, marvelous.
Elodie
They didn't make it in the potty, but they made it right next to the potty,
Jon
Man!
Elodie
But they came and told me that they had peed on the floor and they showed me where it was
Jon
Still a win.
Elodie
Yeah, I know. I agree. That's, that's what I was thinking. So,
Jon
They don’t get it right every time but they're trying. And honestly, when it says, it's the thought that counts in this situation? Absolutely, it is
Elodie
Absolutely. That is growth. You are recognizing that these functions are happening.
Jon { 3:33 }
You trying to do it in roughly the right location and, you know, we haven't made it as easy on them as we could have. You know, they've had a lot of different locations that the potty has been in. It's kind of been a floating thing. We've been trying to find the right spot for it. And yeah, there’s been some inconsistency on our part.
Elodie
Definitely. I think our potty approach is something that we should have a whole conversation about. I'm just putting a pin in this moment.
Jon
Sure! Aww, Man
Elodie
for our Advanced baby figuring it all out.
Jon
Every day! Ery day!
Elodie
Speaking of advanced baby, I've got something to show you.
Recording of Elodie:
Alright! Let’s look at this photo.
Elodie
They were looking at photos and saying Papa
Recording of Elodie
Let’s see who’s in this photo.
Elodie
This is going to blow your mind.
Recording of Elodie
Who is that? Is that Papa?
Recording of JBug
Mee… aiy…. aiy…. aaahh… aiy… owh… Papa
Recording of Elodie
Yeah see this photo, Papa and Juniper
Elodie
Wait for the sign.
Recording of JBug
Aiyhh
Jon
Are they saying “I” ?
Recording of JBug
Meeee
Jon { 4:44 }
“Me”?!
Recording of Jbug
Meeee
Jon
“Me”! Oh baby! Oh, baby
Elodie
Wait for the second one… ‘cause they keep doing it.
Recording of Jbug
Mee… Pheee… Aihy
Jon
They're pointing at themselves.
Recording of Jbug
Meeee
Jon
That's awesome. Oh that's awesome!! Yeessssss! It's not just when they get a word it's when they, like, really show you that they understand the word and they just get it!
Elodie { 5:15 }
Which the signing is part of that. There is no question there… for a long time when they see a photo that they are in, they'll say baby, you know?
Jon
Yeah
Elodie
It's Mama, it's Papa, it's baby. They see the sign for “I” and “me” a lot because I sign it about myself: “I don't want you to”, you know, “I need ” so they know the concept “me”
Jon
Oh we say “I” all the time…
Elodie
and we sign it.
Jon
And we say me all the time we say “I” and yeah yeah yeah
Elodie
But this was kind of kind of a big thing today
Jon
It's fun too because I could tell that you were just looking at photos and trying to see if they were going to say like Papa, you didn't expect the “Aiyh” and “Mee”. Yeah. That's, that's really cool.
Elodie
Yeah, it was
Jon
(to the listeners) also you guys weren't watching on the video as they slowly pointed at themselves. Like “Aiiyhhhh” sorry I'm doing my best impression right now. You heard it, I don't need to do the impression. Ah
Elodie
as they do this more often will get more audio of them saying those words
Jon { 6:12 }
We’re gonna try. It's kind of a fun project anyway. Yeah, it's a good excuse to try and catch some of these little tidbits
Elodie
and then there was this time when they were holding my hand with the pointer finger out to tap against their chest and saying “Aiyh, mee” “Aiyh Aiyh, mee” and it’s just like AAAHHHH
Jon
Tearjerkers.
Elodie
Yeah, this baby is starting to become aware of themselves. They've been very aware of us for a long time.
Jon { 6:41 }
No honestly, though. That hits me almost as hard as when they were saying “Papa” for the first time
JBug
Bop-PUh…. papa….. papa.
Elodie
Yeah
Jon
Really intentionally saying Papa tapping me on the chest while they say it
Elodie
Oh I will never forget that moment. Yeah, very similar That moment where they crawled up and hit your chest. They were saying Papa . You are “Papa”
Jon
But them tapping their own chest with their finger and like pointing at themselves and saying, “I” and saying “me” MMMMMMMh That's cool. Yeah, that's cool.
Elodie
It's pretty awesome. Yeah, I'm into it
Jon
Super baby.
Elodie
They’re so Advanced,
Jon
they're so advanced
Elodie
I mean, they're not a year and a half old and they've already got these ideas
Jon
Whenever Dr Shih says it. He always says it not in congratulatory way, but as a data point, as if you were saying “now that they're walking”
Elodie
“Dealing with an advanced baby, you’re going to expect…”
Jon
“Now since they’re an advanced baby” And I’m like “ahh, Well you shouldn't have!”
Elodie
He's just like, “oh beware, because this is the time when they're going to start pushing on boundaries or this is when they're gonna get really mobile and you're going to want to be thinking about baby proofing” or
Jon
whatever. I don't care that he doesn't mean anything by it. I just hear “advanced baby” and I'm like, that's right! That’s right they are an advanced baby
Elodie { 8:00 }
Right.!I always knew they were special. Haha, yeah, yeah.
So that, that was our day. Bubble party.
Jon
Marvelous
Elodie
looking at themselves in a mirror and saying “me”.
Jon
Hmm, that's cool.
Elodie
one of those videos. It was a front facing camera. So when they're like, leaning forward to the camera and saying me, me me,
Recording of JBug
Mee mee mee mimimi
Recording of Jon
Yeah, you’re Juniper
Recording of JBug
Mama, (giggle)
Jon
They’re like,looking at themselves?
Elodie
Yeah.
Jon
Hehehe ohhhh Goodness,
Elodie { 8:47 }
speaking of their self-awareness, they're saying sorry at some really weird moment.
Jon
Yeah.
Elodie
And I'm wondering what is up with that? Do they not know what the word “Sorry” means, are we using it too much
Jon
I've got thoughts on that.
I think that because of the word itself being “sorry” it makes us more aware of how they're using it. Whereas think about words like “more” and “all done” and how versatile those words have been for them. I use “more” as “Yes” They use it as
Elodie
“I want”
Jon
“I want”
Elodie
“give me”
Jon
Exactly. There's a few different like connotations of it.
Elodie
Definitely
Jon
Or when they’ll use “more” or “all done” isn't necessarily “all done” it might just be like “hold on a second… Okay, now I'm ready” you know whatever. Think about tickling… and with “sorry” I imagine they're just figuring it out. They’re testing it. They're running an experiment every time they say it, and so right now they're just like, still gathering context clues for how to use it correctly. Anyway, I wouldn't read too much into it, I don't think.
Elodie
Okay,
Jon
Have they confused it with “Please”?
Elodie { 9:58 }
No, not really… given how similar those signs are, not as much as I would expect. They understand please pretty well
Jon
Again then…. there's also the internal thought process that's going on. Maybe they just had a thought on the inside that they were sorry about
Elodie
As you were saying “more” means so many things may be “sorry” means “oops” or or something didn't go as they expected
Jon
maybe it's an expression of them having a little frustration or disappointment?
Elodie
Maybe “Dangit!” “sorry”
Jon
Maybe its “dangit!”
Elodie
“Darn”
Jon
“Shoot!”. Hard to say
Elodie
I’ll keep a note of it
Jon
We’re going to have to watch it. Yeah that's what I was thinking. We'll keep an eye we’ll see what's going on. How are they doing?
JBug
(Whines over baby monitor)
Elodie { 10:41 }
Oh they're little screen fell down and stopped. So I'm yep.
Jon
Want me to go help them? Let me go help.
Elodie
Hurry up, they’re asking for help.. (into the baby monitor)Do you need help babe? Papa will come help you?..... Yeah, you just got a prop up their little screen. Get it playing City of Ghosts and I had it on the pillow there.
JBug
(Whines over baby monitor)
Jon
Classic any parent who listens to this is just going to be like, “Yup, there it is”
Elodie { 11:11 }
Is there anything you can do for 30 minutes straight? No,
Jon
It’s okay, though.
Elodie
Yeah, that's life now.
Jon
It's worth it, right?
Elodie
Yeah. Oh its….It's so rewarding
Jon
life is just magica now
Elodie
Hey, I was talking about keeping it magical earlier, but no, One Bad Mother has this joke. They hate the word… “Oh, but it's so rewarding” and they're like, “what are the rewards? What are they? Who is giving me an award? What does it mean huh?”
Jon
I struggle, because I get it, I understand the tropes now, a little bit even though at the same time, I think we could all be a little more real about it and that would be really healthy because it's freaking hard. It's really, really difficult
Elodie
So magical!
Jon
It is actually pretty magical. There is Magic, it’s just at the sacrifice of yourself having any kind of autonomy anymore over decisions that you make
Elodie
yeah, everything is affected
Jon
You as the individual, well, you don't cease to exist but you definitely are in a back seat capacity in comparison to what your life used to be
Elodie
Your identity has changed. And now you have this identifier “parent”, which is maybe in some ways bigger than you or other parts of your previous identity. In
Jon { 12:40 }
In my case, I just have to think was I really doing anything with that before? But yeah, (to JBug) what’s up babe?what’s up, whatchadoing? You wanna come in? You can come in. thats fine
Elodie
Oh hi Juniper want to come sit on my lap?
Jon
Yeah, it's a bug wanted to join us. Totally fine. It’s a little toasty in here. So we won't stay too long. But yeah,
Elodie { 13:03 }
you're welcome. Always fine.
Jon
You still just watching your City of Ghosts?
Elodie
Yeah. They're watching Eva, tell poetry
Jon
flippin quality. You want a show for your toddler to post up in front of City of Ghosts, get it
Elodie
It'll probably be a long time before we add anything else to the TV repertoire.
Jon
Yeah. that’s about it
Elodie
I’m pretty happy with it and They don't seem to mind the repetition.
Jon
So things that Juniper gets to watch, they get to watch the Ruby Rider from Steven Universe video, they get to watch mr. Rogers, or City of Ghosts. Most of what they watch though is home videos that we've made
Elodie { 13:42 }
Us at beach. that was so much fun. Yeah, baby's. First beach trip
Jon
You wanna talk magical. Yeah, that one really was
Elodie
Yeah. Maybe we'll just post a little video on our patreon page. You can watch Juniper seeing the ocean for the first time.
Jon
JBug…. (to Elodie) Can you? you're closer to their hands if you could?
Elodie
Hey I’m gonna pick you up. So you don't mess with the beautiful sexy waveforms. Do you want to watch your friend Jasper? Look, Jasper and their moms,
Jon
Can I smoke a bowl yet? One of these days, we should have a chat about alcohol and weed and what place that has in a parent's life.
Elodie { 14:21 }
I guess we can talk about what place it fills in our lives. We can have the conversation someday.
Jon
So we've had adventures in bodily functions. As happens. We've had some development in the concept of I and me and being able to sign that. Really freaking cool. Just saying that was pretty cool. Anyway, good stuff.
Elodie
very good it was a good day
Jon
I’m very happy with this kiddo. Happy with where they're at, happy with where they're going. Feeling pretty good about some of the decisions we've been making.
Elodie
Let's go put on The Supremes and have a bubble party
Jon
Yeah, I know. The bubble party
Elodie
Bubble machine, 20 bucks!
Jon
All right, keep it light everybody. Gotta keep it light, just saying
Elodie
We love you, guys.
Jon
Love you, Bye!
Outro Nonsense:
Jon
Are you shutting me down?
Elodie
Yes I’m shutting you right downs
Jon
Sometimes, I need to be shut down. That's totally fair.
Elodie
Shut it down Jon!
Jon
Itss kind of one of your big jobs actually
Elodie
It’s what you keep me around for
Recording of Elodie
You just saw that moment?!
Recording of Jon
I did Elodie
Recording of Elodie
I can see them like, in what they're wearing right now. in their bright colors and their bright eyes, tapping their chest and saying “Me! Me!”
Jon
Hey, thank you for listening. Our intro outro music is by MOOW. Follow us on social media and give us nice reviews. We love you.
Elodie
We Love you
--- End of transcript ---
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