Entrust Equipping Leaders: Recent Episodes
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Want to sharpen your leadership skills and discover fresh passion for equipping future generations of church leaders? Join us as we interview authors, pastors, ministry leaders and others who are training church leaders worldwide. Entrust equips men and women to serve God in the local church, communities, families and the world. Let us be your training and equipping resource.
Helpful links
https://www.entrust4.org/iberiaproject
https://www.entrust4.org
Transcript
Todd Randall [00:00:02]: Welcome back to Entrust Equipping Leaders. Laurie’s guests once again are Dámaris Zafra, Joshua Sanchez, Kelsey Rose, and Sheila Bader. Laurie Lind [00:00:17]: Thank you, Todd. And, yes, welcome back again to Entrust Equipping Leaders. I'm Laurie. And today is a special episode. As I've been editing the interview that I conducted with the 4 colleagues who serve the Lord in the Spanish speaking world through Entrust, I really had enough left that I didn't wanna leave on the cutting room floor, and I think will be encouraging to you. So we're going to start out today with a little bit more interaction with those 4 guests who you heard on the previous 2 episodes, Dámaris, Kelsey, Sheila, and Joshua. And then a little extra information from Sheila including the prayer that Joshua prays for the Spanish speaking world in Spanish and then Sheila translating it for us into English, so we can pray along, those of us who know English better than Spanish. So that's what lies ahead. Laurie Lind [00:01:16]: We'll pick up with the interview with the Iberian team, and then we'll jump over to Sheila. How do you see the Entrust training impacting, you know, Christian leaders in Spain? Or how do Christian leaders, like pastors, how do they perceive what you're doing? How does it all fit together with the whole realm of leadership training in Spain? Dámaris Zafra [00:01:44]: Most of the pastors are in another kind of generation. We've seen that it has been a change also with them that they are realizing the need of making disciples and getting trained. But it has been a challenge to introduce the training to them because it's like, okay. What else? It's something else that we've got to do. So it has been a real challenge to, okay.,This is not only another tool. It's something that can fully transform the church, and that has been a challenge up to now. So some pastors has taken the training. Most of people who has taken the training is just people from church who wants to train others and who wants to be discipling others. Dámaris Zafra [00:02:35]: And this is, I think, why we put so much input and effort and we're talking all the time about discipling because it's, I think in Spain, we're more focused on let's train all the people in the church and not only pastors. Kelsey Rose [00:02:52]: Right. And in this stage, we are focusing a lot on training lay people, training anyone in the church who is willing to step up and take advantage of the training, the opportunity to learn how to better make disciples and go deeper with others to facilitate profound spiritual conversations. So as we're doing that, our hope, our dream, our prayer is that the leaders in the church currently, will catch on, and they'll see how God is using the training to change the lives of many others so that they will realize the need for the training. Yeah. Because right now, a lot of the current pastors, leaders just see it as another training and are a little distrustful. So that is a barrier that we have to work to break down. But, yeah, at least in in our congregation, what seems to be working is training others and letting them loose to go make disciples, and, the other leaders in the church are watching. So it's really fun to see. Dámaris Zafra [00:03:56]: Because the pastors in Spain, most of them has 2 jobs. They need to work in a secular job to in order to to live, and then they are pastors of the congregation with a lot of things going on. You know? So, it's okay. It's a 40 hours training, but what is the value for me on doing that? Do I need to spend 40 hours on a training to do something that I've been doing all my life? So, actually, when they do the training, they realize, okay, that's something different here. But, until they do the training is the difficult part to get them excited to take a training. So, what is helping us is just sharing with the with the church and that they will be able to see the benefits of taking it. Laurie Lind [00:04:45]: What else do you has come into your mind that you would like to say about disciple making in Spanish culture or Entrust or your thoughts about any of those things, anything else you'd like to add? Kelsey Rose [00:05:00]: I would add that we would love for anyone listening to take a moment to pray for us, to pray for Spain, because there's a lot of spiritual warfare, a lot of spiritual resistance, a lot of, difficulties that this team has to go against to Break down those barriers that we've been talking about. So if you could take moment just a few moments to pray for us, we would greatly appreciate it. Laurie Lind [00:05:28]: in fact, we’ll maybe conclude this call with a prayer. I do want to add that, Joshua was born in Ecuador, and Sheila is going there soon and has is part of a new training that's underway or relatively new efforts in Ecuador among some people there both online and in person. So just briefly, Sheila, can you tell us how that's going and how it's being received? Sheila Bader [00:05:52]: It's going great. This is the second module that Entrust offers. So last year, they did the first one facilitated relational learning, and It went over very well, and so this is pretty much the same group of people who are, doing the second module, and they're looking for and longing for ways to get men in the churches involved in this too because this has been all women. But after their first, session last year, that was their question was, how can we get how can we get men involved in this? So That's another prayer request, just that God would raise up Spanish speaking men to help with the trainings too. Laurie Lind [00:06:36]: May I ask you, Joshua? Would you pray as we conclude our time and and certainly just pray in Spanish for these things. Sheila Bader [00:06:58]: Father, thank you for Entrust. Thank you for raising up people who in their hearts have the desire to serve your church to propel discipleship forward. Thank you, God, that you continue waking our hearts up to fulfill your mission of going and preaching the gospel to all nations, teaching each one to follow the things you've taught us. Help us. Help us to continue touching the hearts of others so that they realize their need to be discipled. Help us to be sensitive to others. We ask you also for the church in Spain that you continue waking it up as you have been up till now. The believers in Spain will recognize their need to disciple others, including their own need for spiritual growth. Sheila Bader [00:07:48]: Help us to be an effective tool for the church in Spain, helping to form those who want to grow, To help grow the churches, Lord, so that believers can be like Jesus. I ask you also for Sheila, Lord, for her work with the believers in Ecuador that they can also see how you strengthen them, how you give them the capacities to disciple others, that they can see how you keep the church alive and fulfilling your mission in this world. Thank you, lord, for continuing to guide us. In the name of Jesus, Amen. Laurie Lind [00:08:25]: Thank you so much for listening to this special short episode of Entrust Equipping Leaders. Please continue to praise God for what appears to be revival breaking out across Spain. Keep praying for Spain, For the Iberian Peninsula, for Ecuador, and all of Latin America, and pray for our little fledgling team and their zeal and for wisdom for them as they go forward in bringing discipleship training to the churches of Iberia. To learn more about the team and their vision, go to entrust4.org/iberiaproject. That's Entrust, entrust, the number 4, dot org/iberiaproject. I'm Laurie Lind, and I'll see you again right here next time.
Links and resources
Iberia Project https://www.entrust4.org/iberiaproject
Entrust https://www.entrust4.org
Transcript
Todd Randall [00:00:03]: Welcome back to Entrust Equipping leaders.Kelsey Rose [00:00:06]: We're talking about a generation of Christians who recognizes the need to disciple, but maybe hasn't been discipled themselves.Todd Randall [00:00:13]: Today, we pick up where we left off last time … in Spain. With the dream and vision of revival and disciple-making spreading across the Iberian Peninsula and the entire Spanish-speaking world.Dámaris Zafra [00:00:30]: Because this is our dream, to be a tool for the Spanish church to help to disciple others and that will also disciple others. And this is where Iberia Project comes in. Todd Randall [00:00:44]: Laurie’sguests once again are Dámaris Zafra, Joshua Sánchez, Kelsey Rose, and Sheila Bader.Laurie Lind [00:00:56]: And so there's the reaching people with the gospel, that’s the evangelism side and that seems to become becoming more organic and natural in some places like you said, Kelsey. And then and then beyond evangelism, there comes the ongoing growth, the discipling, the taking people deeper. What is available to young believers now in Spain in that way?Kelsey Rose [00:01:23]: I would agree with Dámaris that the church is moving toward disciple-making movements. There's this realization that, like the way that we've been doing things doesn't work anymore. Just taking care of the Sunday service, making sure that we have our Christian events, and stuff like that. Isn't working to make true disciples of Jesus. That able to engage the culture, engage the engage the hearts of the Spanish people. So well, like, the traditional, idea maybe that people might have is, oh, if I wanna take my Christian faith seriously, the maybe I would need to go to seminary. But since I'm not going to go to seminary, then maybe I'll just come to terms with the fact that I'll just have a mediocre faith or something like that. Even though there are so many resources available online, anybody who goes online with a question or wants to study the bible, they can find resources online.Kelsey Rose [00:02:19]: But that aspect of discipleship, of actually walking with another person is so necessary, but at the same time, we're talking about a generation of Christians who recognizes the need to disciple, but maybe hasn't been discipled themselves. So we're trying to figure out on our own kind of what this really looks like in practice and how this translates into our context.Dámaris Zafra [00:02:45]: Mhmm. And this is where the Iberia Project comes because this is our dream, to be a tool for the Spanish church to how to disciple others and that will also disciple others. So, I agree with Kelsey that we are the generation, at least me, that I'm 37 years old. I've never had a discipleship or 1 on 1 or someone who was taking care of me to help me grow. Now I have and I had some mentors, now that I grew up. But in my teenage years or my twenties, I didn't. So I learning kind of falling down, and the Lord was merciful. And then, okay, let's start again.Dámaris Zafra [00:03:27]: That's a real need in my heart. Okay. That's there's a real need there that's not only about sharing the gospel. It's about discipling others. And this is why Iberia Project comes, to be a tool to the church, that they might use good open questions to make people think by themselves and not just sharing, okay, those are the ideas. It's more like, okay, let's see together the Bible and what's the Bible say.Laurie Lind [00:03:55]: Well, that's what I was hoping to hear more too about the Iberia Project. Let's back up a little bit because this vision for the Iberia Project came to you, Dámaris, I guess, in about 2016 when you were in Switzerland. Is that correct? Yeah. Describe how you developed this idea, this vision, and I also would like you to talk about why you're calling it Iberia Project and not the Spain Project.Dámaris Zafra [00:04:26]: It was actually, it was not only me. We were 4 of us who dreamt about, okay, we put the desire in front of the Lord. And we said, okay. Now we have this tool. What do you want us to do with that? And because we were studying at seminary at that time and in it's seminary is 4 years. That needs to take, you know, and it's all about getting, information. But within this 10 days of training in Switzerland that changed our whole view of okay. Now we have all this information here, but how we share it to others what, What's the process? So Entrust gave us this tool on, okay, making that reality, to others, like how to make good questions and how to share with others what we've been, learning.Dámaris Zafra [00:05:19]: And, we dreamt to okay. This is a tool that will be really good and needed for the Spanish church. So we try to translate it to Spanish and offer that into seminaries and different churches in Spain and to have a complete project that will be in Spanish with all the models translated. So that was our dream in 2016, And I become part of Entrust in 2019 because when you put a dream in front of the Lord, he doesn't forget it. So I was having a kind of quite a year in 2019, and the Lord reminded me about that dream. And that made me realize okay. Because he called me with Matthew, the great commission where the Lord says, go and make disciples to all the nations and teach them to obey. So I thought, how shall I do it, Lord? How do I do that? Shall I go to another places, or shall I go to Africa? I was just having quite a year, and the Lord spoke to me clear.Dámaris Zafra [00:06:29]: He said, this is what I want you to do. Just start doing it. And we started in seminary in Barcelona. We offered at the 1st training in Spanish in 2019, with one of the ladies that was in Switzerland too, And the dream became true. So, we call it the Iberia Project because, we were focusing not only in Spain, but all the Iberia Peninsula, like, also Portugal. And, in we were also even dreaming about, South America.Laurie Lind [00:07:09]: And can we back up, and can we tell another story from you, Dámaris. I'd love to hear how you dreamed of going to Africa to serve God. That was your initial longing heart's desire, and then God change that. Just describe what how God did that.Dámaris Zafra [00:07:28]: Yeah. I I actually always wanted to be black, but the Lord made me white and blonde. So it was kind of frustrating asking the lord, why I cannot be black and go to Africa? But he had other plans. In in 2012, I had the opportunity to travel to Canada, Toronto, and I was in an internship there for 1 year, and I was searching for the will of God for my life to where to spend my time and where to go afterwards to serve him, and I was just praying for that. And one day, someone in my devotional time, my prayer time, someone came with a book that it's called Operation World. And I opened that book, and I was having the idea of of going to Burundi as, to serve the Lord over there. That, I opened that book and I opened Spain, and I saw that in Spain less than 1% of population is a believer. So that completely break broke my heart.Dámaris Zafra [00:08:40]: And I remember that I started crying, and the Lord placed a deep love for my own, country in that specific moment because I up to then, I always remember wanting to leave Spain. I I was saying, okay. I want to go wherever, the Lord calls me, but I don't want to stay in Spain. But in that specific moment, the Lord completely broke my heart, and I started just weeping and crying and saying, I'm sorry, because now I understand that you made me with a purpose. You made me Spaniard with a purpose. You made me to know the language with a purpose and also the to know about the culture with a purpose, and I want to use all of that for your glory. And this then I stayed there the whole year, and then I came back to Spain. And since then, I'm in Spain.Dámaris Zafra [00:09:37]: I even married a Catalan. Because I I always thought, you know, I I can't be black, but I can marry a black man. But he’s not a black man.Laurie Lind [00:09:49]: Actually, culturally, you are a Catalan. Is that right? You and your husband?Dámaris Zafra [00:09:56]: Yeah. People from Barcelona. They are called Catalans.Laurie Lind [00:10:01]: So, I mean, we back up to that from Africa to just realizing God has you living in Spain and being a a Spaniard for a reason, and then comes this vision about bringing this Entrust training. And all of you, I'd like to hear more like, are your thoughts about what this these Entrust modules have that can work or not work to meet the needs in in Spanish culture?Kelsey Rose [00:10:24]: At the beginning of the conversation. Dámaris and Joshua pointed out that Spain is a very conversational culture, a very relational culture. Spaniards love to talk. They love to be listened to. So one of the, I think, one of the great assets that Entrust, offers to as a tool for Spanish believers is the fact that we can go deeper in our faith through conversation. We don't have to leave aside that cultural aspect of our personality to be able to go deeper, but we can actually use that aspect of the culture to go deeper. So, yeah, I think that that's one of the one of the aspects of Entrust that really fits well with Spanish culture, and also questions. At least with this younger generation as well, I think there's a big value on questions.Kelsey Rose [00:11:17]: And we're talking about a generation that has a lot of information, information overload. Everywhere they go, whether it's social media, whether it's Google. In their university, there's always a dump of information and very little guidance as to how to navigate all that information. So even that happened that happens even in church sometimes where we just dump a lot of information on believers and don't really guide them through the process of learning to think biblically, learning to think like a Jesus follower. So I believe that the aspect of questions of actually confronting people with their with their assumptions, with their motivations, with their beliefs, and actually using that to help them go deeper is also a very, helpful tool.Dámaris Zafra [00:12:07]: I think also the idea of practicing before leaving. Like, you prepare things beforehand. You can't like you read something and you expect, like, a master class, like someone tagging all the time. But then it is this aspect of modeling that we are doing what they will do and that they feel like It's a safe place to practice and that they can, be well prepared before doing it in other spaces. So I think that's one of the most key points of Entrust trainings that you leave thinking, okay. Now I'm sure, and I'm ready to do it by myself with others.Laurie Lind [00:12:54]: What is it? What do you leave thinking you can do?Dámaris Zafra [00:12:58]: To how to facilitate small groups, how to facilitate learning, how to make good open questions that will make the others think and how to really go deep into scripture with observation, interpretation, application questions. So, but it's about, knowing how to share with others, and they will be able to share it with others. And, Yeah. I don't know. Just practicing there, it makes feel like safe environment that people feel, okay. Now I'm ready to move on and to do it with others.Sheila Bader [00:13:44]: Dámaris share the story that you told me about the gal that was at your training on Saturday that came up to you and said, oh, now I can use this with my family.Dámaris Zafra [00:13:57]: Mhmm. At with I I did a workshop on Saturday in my church, and I didn't have a lot of time. I only had an a half, and I thought, what's the most important things? And the good thing is open questions because we think we know how to do open questions. But then When doing Entrust training, we realized we didn't. So I tried to do a highlight on that. And at the end of the training, a woman came and said, thank you, because I just realized that I was doing a lot of closed ended questions to my kids when they come out from school. And now I will think before making a question to them, and I will make a good open question to really see what they had been through the whole day. So I thought that was Interesting.Kelsey Rose [00:14:48]: I would also add that Entrust is really helpful for Spanish believers because it gives them a tool to disciple as they are. They might not have a lot of biblical or theological backgrounds, but I believe that the training that Entrust offers empowers them to use what little they do know to be able to disciple others. So it kinda breaks down this mental barrier that, no, I can't disciple somebody because I don't know enough. But instead, it brings them to that point of, okay. We'll learn together. I don't have to know everything to be able to disciple somebody. I don't have to have gone to seminary to be able to disciple somebody. But even as long as I have my bible And as long as I have willingness and and depending on the holy spirit, then with the training that I've received, we can we can go forward, and I can disciple others.Joshua Sanchez [00:15:40]: Maybe well, also helps the that we emphasize in being a servant leader. I mean, the servant leadership. So people here, they reject, the to be controlled. I mean, I have my life. You have your life. You don't have, any kind of, authority to, know each detail, about my life or about what I do in my, In my life, so when you encourage people to be servants instead of to be, like, more I don't know.Joshua Sanchez [00:16:27]: Yes. We encourage people to be to be, servant and not to control people, to control the their disciples. You're more well, we find, or at least I find that people are more open to be discipled, And you can disciple people better. I mean, we're at the at the same at the same point, maybe not at the same stage of life, but we're trying to learn how to follow Jesus. I'm not your, An expert in Christian life. We're walking together. So it's a it's Very great point here, at least in in Spanish church, to know that we are equals. You're not better than me. You're I'm not worse than you.Dámaris Zafra [00:17:21]: Yeah. I I think what just are just 2 words that I think that makes, Vulnerability is shown at the trainings and also humility that the leaders or the ones who are training others are not above the rest. You know? They are but they are with the group, being able to share their own experiences also sometimes to be open and say, oh, that's a good thing and an idea and thought about and being just 1 more of the group because this is, teaching by example And not by saying you should do that, but showing how to do it. And I think all the Entrust training is focused on that. Like, I'm gonna show you how to be vulnerable. I'm gonna show you how to be humble. I'm gonna show you how to facilitate learning with others.Dámaris Zafra [00:18:21]: And it's not about me saying you have to do it. It's just me being in that spot that they will see that I am doing it. So I think that's what makes a difference in those kind of trainings.Laurie Lind [00:18:35]: So what is the status of the Iberia project now? I I mean, the vision is there. The dream is there, and I think, Damaris, you're gaining a team. In some ways, Joshua and Kelsey and maybe Ari too. What are you all doing, or what where is the what's happening now, and what's the ongoing vision?Joshua Sanchez [00:18:55]: We're being part of a revival here in Spain.Dámaris Zafra [00:18:58]: And you maybe you can say that just once nore.Dámaris Zafra [00:19:04]: Can you repeat that, Joshua, please?Joshua Sanchez [00:19:06]: That we're being part of a revival here in Spain.Dámaris Zafra [00:19:10]: Amen. This is our dream, to be part. We are part of that, but we also dream to not only share the gospel, but how to train others to make disciples that will disciple others. So what we're doing is trying to offer Entrust trainings to the Spanish church. So we started in Barcelona, Madrid, and in Canada that are key cities of the country, but we're dreaming to go all over Spain. We're dreaming to go to, east, north, west, and south. So that's our dream, and we're working to achieve that With workshops, trainings, and a lot of prayer.Laurie Lind [00:20:02]: What roles do you play, Joshua and Kelsey, in that?Kelsey Rose [00:20:07]: Right now, I am mainly in a support role. So, whatever I can do here in Malaga mainly, where I live, I like to get involved and do that. Right now, I am doing some follow-up with the people who came to the training in August that we did, and Joshua and Damaris were both here. It was a really fun training because we had 4 generations of Entrust Disciples. They're, represented, so it was very fun. But in the last few weeks since then, well, part of my role, for example, has been walking with these people, meeting with them again, asking them what they need, how they're planning on putting this into practice, and help continue to give them tools and guidance to be able to continue to disciple others.Laurie Lind [00:20:54]: And when you say 4 generations of Entrust disciples, what exactly does that mean?Kelsey Rose [00:21:00]: So we had Damaris who was trained in Switzerland, and then Damaris trained Joshua. And then last December, when I did the Entrust training, Joshua trained me, and then I was also participating in the training. So now I was discipling the Malaganians that were there at the training.Laurie Lind [00:21:22]: So Joshua and, actually, Sheila as well, what are your roles in the ongoing Iberian vision.Sheila Bader [00:21:30]: My role is just to grab onto their coattails and hang on, Because the ship is sailing or the plane is flying. And as you can see, it's, guys just doing some great things. So, honestly, I am, you know, an international director for equipping women, But this is equipping women and men in Spain. So I would say my role is mostly just to, support, especially Dámaris and just making sure she's doing well personally and to help with strategic planning, help, you know, do look at, Oviedo and Zaragoza and, Granada and all those other cities. In fact, it's so funny because the whole time we've been in this conversation, I keep thinking of When I was, in my mid twenties and was serving in Madrid, I went to visit a pastor in Obiedo, which is in the northwest corner of Spain, and he had a ministry of puppets. He did puppets in, like a where people, you know, were always traveling, and, then we would hand out an invitation to a bible correspondence course, to people who came to see the puppet shows. So I was standing on a street corner at in rush hour traffic, handing out these, invitations to bible studies, and I had these this little old lady dressed completely in black, which is was very common in those days. And she came up to me, and there were people everywhere all around me, and she said, which means you are from the devil.Sheila Bader [00:23:25]: And people started, like, you know, taking space away from like, you know, moving away from me like and now this this is just such a cool, another season of life for the gospel in Spain where, you know, people are open to the gospel, and we have a tool. We have lots of tools, and we have young people who are, engaged. So it's just it's kind of a full circle, just an incredible privilege and joy for me to see what God is doing and to have a very small part.Dámaris Zafra [00:24:04]: Actually if we are where we are today, it's because Sheila is a great mentor.Laurie Lind [00:24:09]: And, Joshua, what's what part are you playing?Joshua Sanchez [00:24:13]: Well, my main role maybe is to help Dámaris to keep her awake when we're traveling.Sheila Bader [00:24:23]: Thank you for doing that, Joshua.Joshua Sanchez [00:24:26]: We do so long trips, But, well, sometimes I fall asleep first, so it's not like in my then.Joshua Sanchez [00:24:38]: When in my free times, I I go with, facilitating, lessons and things like that. Maybe as Kelsey is super here with the work that that he's hanging on her hands so glad. It's a lot of work. So we're helping in in this.Laurie Lind [00:24:59]: You know, these young Spanish Christians, they have got it. I recently heard someone talking about the evangelical church in America and how sometimes we focus more on programs than people, and we haven't really discipled people. Dámaris and her team see that. Next time, we'll hear a little bit more about what kind of training most pastors have available to them now in Spain and what Damaris and Kelsey and Joshua are working toward.Dámaris Zafra [00:25:28]: The church is everyone. Right? Everyone who's a believer and believes in Jesus Christ as the son of God. So we are church here also. So how we can train them to become disciples who disciple others.Laurie Lind [00:25:43]: That's next time right here on Entrust Equipping Leaders.
Guests Damaris Zafra, Joshua Sanchez, Kelsey Rose and Sheila Bader describe Spanish culture, Spain's spiritual atmosphere and how God is growing a disicplemaking movement. It's called the Iberia Project and it all started in 2016.
Transcript
Joshua Sanchez [00:00:00] praying in SpanishTodd Randall [00:00:12]: Habla espanol? Yeah, obviously, I don't. What you're hearing is the voice of Joshua Sanchez, praying for Entrust and for the country of Spain. Today, Laurie Lind visits with Joshua Sanchez, Kelsey Rose, Damaris Zafra and Sheila Bader about Spain's spiritual environment, the beginnings of revival there, and the dream of a disciplemaking movement spreading across the Spanish speaking world.Joshua Sanchez: [00:00:46] prayer concludes.Dámaris Zafra [00:00:59] So hi, I am Damaris. I live in Barcelona. And I’m involved with Entrust since 2016, when I took the first training in Switzerland. And I just loved that, and I wished to share that with other peple here in Spain. And I love about Spanish culture that we love to hang out, to be outside of our homes all the time, and going out, and have coffe with friends, or, just being around all the time.Laurie Lind [00:01:32]: While we're talking with you, you do have an interesting hobby that's also a ministry on the side, involving the water. Can you just tell us a little bit about that too?Dámaris Zafra [00:01:43]: Yeah. I collaborate with Christian Surfers Ministry. And we just love to surf and share the gospel in the water when we are surfing.Laurie Lind [00:01:55]: So, how about you, Joshua? Tell us all about yourself.Joshua Sanchez [00:01:58]: Well, I'm Joshua. I'm 21. And I really was born in Ecuador. but when I was, like, 5 or 6 months, my family and I came here to Spain. So, I grew up here in in Barcelona. I'm studying theology at IBSTE. One of the things that I love about Spanish culture is like Dari said, that here people loves to talk. I mean, you can be in a park or maybe in the supermarket, So good to see how you can have good conversations with people.Laurie Lind [00:03:01]: Is there such a thing as a shy Spanish person?Joshua Sanchez [00:03:05]: Maybe. Well, I didn't find a shy person. But surely there is someone.Laurie Lind [00:03:17]: Mostly pretty outgoing and, maybe more extroverted than introverted. Would that be true?Joshua Sanchez [00:03:22]: Yes.Kelsey Rose [00:03:31]: I was actually born in the United States in Michigan, but my parents moved to Spain when I was 9 as intercultural workers. So, I pretty much grown up here. I've lived more than 2 thirds of my life here and I love Spain. I love the Spanish people, Spanish culture. It's it's been a huge blessing for me to be able to live here and develop my ministry here. I recently graduated from university. I studied philosophy at a secular university here in Spain. I'm also an author, a pastor's wife, and started collaborating with Entrust this year.Laurie Lind [00:04:02]: Wow. An author? So [cough, excuse me]. What have you written?Kelsey Rose [00:04:06]: I'm getting ready to publish my first book. It talks about that intersection between feminism and Christianity. Because feminism is a really big deal here in Spain. And the church here needs more resources to talk about it.Laurie Lind [00:04:23]: My goodness. That's fascinating. You all are representing so much, expertise and wisdom and knowledge. This is gonna be such a rich conversation. We'll go to Sheila. Sheila, tell us all about yourself.Sheila Bader [00:04:39]: I am not Latina, but I feel like at least not by ethnic background, but I have a very deep love for, Spanish speaking people. I grew up in a small town in Nebraska, which is right in the middle of the United States. And I was a Spanish major in College. And so I lived in Spain for, a year when I was in college, and then I went back and did a 2 year short term stint in Madrid. I lived in, Sevilla in college and then went back and lived in Madrid. And now I work with Entrust since 2021. So I get the privilege of working with these guys who live in Spain. And one day, very soon, I get to go have a trip to Espana, Which I'm very much looking forward to.Laurie Lind [00:05:40]: Because where do you live now, Sheila?Sheila Bader [00:05:43] Eastern … Southeastern Washington State. Laurie Lind [00:05:45]: I'd like to know more about each of you, like, a little bit, how did you come to know Jesus personally, and what are some ways that you were discipled In growing deeper in your walk with Christ.Kelsey Rose [00:05:58]: I grew up in a Christian home, so my parents were very devoted Christians. We actually lived across the street from the church from the time that I was born. And then, when we came to Spain, my parents were still very devoted Christians and very enthusiastic I was most discipled by my parents and, also my other families, other, yeah, close friends that loved the lord and really want took an interest in me and what god and believe what God would do in my life.Dámaris Zafra [00:06:37]: So, I started going to church when I was 5. And when I was around 7 or 8 years old, I Just understood what the Lord did for me, that he died for me in the cross and that he had a place for me in heaven. So, I completely understood that and started to believe in that. But I didn't have a real change. I thought Being a believer was to go to church on Sunday. So my youth and my Having kind of problems or things that I asked the Lord directly, okay, if you will, can you please show up on here? And he always brought me closer. So, if I'm here today, it's because he's good all the time.Joshua Sanchez [00:08:08]: Well, I met Jesus thanks to my grandmother. And, well, we, as Latinos, we grow up in a kind of Christian culture or a subculture. And the idea of God wasn't too, far away from me Because, well, we know things, stories. But in my family, there wasn't any Christian instead of my grandmother. And one day, thanks to, Skype … thanks to Skype ... we did a meeting, and I was asking her some things about the aliens that I well, I was watching a TV program in in history channel, so there was, like, I don't remember so good. Like, the angel who spoke to Abraham wasn't an angel, but an alien. So, well, the only person who could answer me was my grandmother.Joshua Sanchez [00:09:09]: So, I asked her if it if that was true or not. And she, answered me and started to share to me the gospel. And that night, I came to Jesus. And I never had, like, this, a serious discipleship. Maybe the pastor or a leader helped me to do some things to know Jesus better, So in the 1st 2 years was my grandmother, thanks to Internet. But then, I Grow up in the middle of the community of the church. So I think that now in this,Sheila Bader [00:10:38]: Well, Sheila, how about your story? I grew up in a family that attended church, but It was mostly just a Sunday thing, but I did have a lot of curiosity about Jesus from going to Sunday school. And the 1st time I ever really heard a clear presentation of the gospel, I was in middle school, And I was very attracted to the idea of Jesus, but I also was very Just caught in, you know, doing whatever I had to do to be in the correct group, like, peer pressure. So, I kind of you know, I would dabble kind of like Dawn Marie said. I would go to a summer camp, and I would, you know, God would draw me closer. And then, but just kind of 1 foot in 1 world, 1 foot in the other world, all the way through high School, college. But when I went to Spain, as a 3rd year university student, I met a girl named who we would get together every week and practice English and Spanish. And 1 week, when I met with and she looked like Dámaris. I mean, it was a long time ago, but when I met Dámaris, I thought, she looks like.Sheila Bader [00:12:00]: She asked me, do you believe in God? And I said, sure. Doesn't everybody? And she said, no. I don't, and I wanna know why you do. And that made me realize that I didn't know the God that I said I believed in. So I went back to my last year of university, and a friend invited me to a Christian group on campus. And I was living in a big house with a lot of other girls, so I snuck the back door and went to this meeting, and, Jesus met me at that meeting. And, you know, that was the moment of of, turning. And so then I got involved in that group, which was very, discipleship oriented and just kind of stayed under the umbrella of those people who poured into my life for years.Laurie Lind [00:12:51]: Well, I love how, you know, God has worked in each of your lives somewhat similar in some similar ways, some different ways. And some of you have mentioned about Spanish culture or Latin culture in general is very infused with the church, but then there's a difference between just church and just really knowing Jesus personally. So can you tell us more just like the cultural the spiritual environment that you are serving in in Spain.Kelsey Rose [00:13:33]: A lot of curiosity. A lot of interest in the faith that their parents really didn't care about. So now we have a generation of young people, that know little or nothing of the Bible. And what they do know, they found out on TikTok. So there's a lot of myth breaking that has to happen, a lot of prejudice that young people might have, but they don't even know why. But just they kinda got infused through their parents. But, yes, there is a lot of a lot of openness among the younger generations.Kelsey Rose [00:14:09]: And people who worked in Spain for many years talk about how years ago, Spain was like, was a graveyard for intercultural, Christian workers that would come to this country. And now, And now it's really different. Now there's a there's a hunger. There's an interest. There's an openness that there haven't been in in past years. And it's something that we're really grateful for, but we also realized that it's a big responsibility, because, right, the church needs workers to rise up and disciple others, the way that Jesus wants us to.Laurie Lind [00:14:44]: What is the reason for the hunger? What's the longing that that's there that's making them interested?Kelsey Rose [00:14:51]: Actually, I would think that a lot of this hunger has to do with the prayers of the Spanish people. Because for many, many years, at least in my context, we have, maybe older people in the church who've been praying for revival for many, many years. Like, ever since they got saved years ago, they started praying for revival. And they've been praying that God would break down the spiritual barriers in this country, and they've been praying a very long time. And a lot of them, Like, even tell us. Like, we see that God is doing something different. There might be other, of course, social factors as well. Things like, Internet access to Internet and access to different ideas that maybe weren't is available 20, 30 years ago.Kelsey Rose [00:15:41]: Of course, that contributes. Or the globalization, the fact that, like, the global youth culture, for example, has a lot of the same ideas, a lot of the same interests. So, when the gospel starts reaching, young people in that culture, it kind of expands in a little easier way. But I think that mainly, it's because of the prayers of the Spanish people.Dámaris Zafra [00:16:00]: True that it's an that we're seeing something different in the new culture that's arising on the new generation that's arising. And I think it's because, Spain and the culture has changed a lot in the last years That, I think we forgot about I don't know how to explain that in in English, but They had in mind what the church did in the past very fresh, but the new generation, they don't. So, they look at it with new perspectives and new, ideas on what it might be. And I think also Having an openness to other kind of religions. Like, I've seen in new generations very openness to, like, I think this might also help, to talk about spiritual things more openly.Joshua Sanchez [00:17:29]: Well, I work with our Evangelism team in our church. And I can see that as Dámaris said, there is generation who reject everything that is related to Christian faith. There was, like, a generation who was, who thought that the church was hurting them, things related to Christian faith. So that generation who are from thirties to fifties, flesh or a body who are here and who are without purpose. But At least people from 20 to thirties, they're still going away from Christianity and everything that can sound like Bible or Jesus or gospel or those words.Kelsey Rose [00:19:21]: Right. I would also add that I believe that this younger generation is also more aware of their brokenness. There is a lot of mental health issue. There mental health issues. There's a lot of, building houses, getting a stable career. And even though this generation is concerned about that, they see at least That that issue between 2020 and 35, maybe even 40, have lived several economic crisis. They've What the world offers them doesn't really satisfy.Kelsey Rose [00:20:46]: So that could contribute to why a lot of them are realizing, like what Joshua said, that we're more than flesh and bone. Like, there is a spiritual aspect to us that that we need to cultivate. So I think that's what's leading a lot of them as well too, like, oriental spirituality. They realize that there there's a need for something else that this world can't offer them. But at the same time, they still have, Those prejudices that it prejudices against Christianity, that we, as disciples of Jesus, need to help break down.Dámaris Zafra [00:21:25]: Relative, like, relativism. I'm I don't know if it's the right word in English. Mhmm. But there's not only 1 truth. So If you share about the gospel, oh, yeah. That might be truth, but as well is the truth of that other religion. So there's not only 1 truth. It changes everything, you know, also the way of you sharing the gospel to others or sharing about the bible because we really believe that it's only 1 truth.Dámaris Zafra [00:21:53]: That is Jesus Christ. So, and it has changed a lot. Before they would say, no. I don't want to know anything about it, and it was white or black, but now it's okay. Everything is allowed. And I want to know about everything, and I want to experience about everything.Laurie Lind [00:22:08]: So some people do come to really recognize there's one truth. It's Jesus. And like you have, what is it like to be, you know a real follower of Jesus Christ in Spanish culture today? That's a good question.Dámaris Zafra [00:22:48]: Didn't know that word, new one. So, yeah, they thought that I was in a cold, so they didn't want to know anything about it.Kelsey Rose [00:23:34]: And I was the only bible believing Christian in my class. And, really, what I noticed in my class is not well, I guess they were philosophy students. They were quite open to talk about deep topics. But there was a genuine interest in Asking questions about Christianity, kind of wanting to understand my point of view. So that maybe past generations have experienced.Joshua Sanchez [00:24:10]: Maybe. I think that there are 2 kind of people who are open to us. I mean, like, as we are, another kind of spiritual expression to live and those people who think that we're as something strange In the middle of Christianity, we are not part of the Christian culture. We do some things different, so I found people who asked me, okay. You're a Christian, but you don't do those things, but you don't do those things. Of people. We're open and if you think that we're, like, something strange in in Christianity.Dámaris Zafra [00:26:13]: So this is my experience, but I think Kelsey that is a wife pastor can answer that question reallySheila Bader [00:26:20]: good. Yeah.Kelsey Rose [00:26:21]: Yes. Right. I can't I answer for all of Spain and all of evangelical Christianity in Spain, but I can, We share the experience of our church. What we are experiencing at our church is a genuine desire of the people to connect with the culture, to connect with the people. Sins in the world, but separated from the world itself in the sense that it kind of separated a lot from culture. And maybe we're known more as, Like, more legalistic as in do this, don't do this. A lot of rules. But what we're noticing now of people not wanting to just hand out flyers, but actually wanting to share their faith in in real ways, sharing their testimonies, testifying.Kelsey Rose [00:27:31]: Normally, in our prayer meetings on Tuesday nights, we have the opportunity for people to share testimonies, and we hear a lot of testimonies of how God is using the people in the church to bring light in their workplaces. Mhmm. We have, people at our church that work as businesswomen or businessmen, we have, nurses. We have doctors, teachers. And no matter which area of society that they're in, they're trying to be light and they're trying to be salt, and they're having conversations. They're having opportunities to pray for other people. So we are seeing, at least in our in our circle, we're seeing Christians wanting to break down the barriers and actually reach people where they are.Laurie Lind [00:28:14]: I think we're beginning to hear that revival is beginning in Spain as the result of years of prayer by Spanish believers. And it's great to hear that Christians are finding natural ways to share their faith with others. And yet we know that sharing our faith and leading people to Christ is part of our calling, and then we need to disciple them and take them deeper.Dámaris Zafra [00:28:38]: There's a real need there that's not only about sharing the gospel. It's about discipling others, and this is where Iberia Project comes.Laurie Lind [00:28:46]: Come back for the next episode of Entrust Equipping Leaders to hear Dámaris and Sheila and Kelsey and Joshua tell us what they are doing with the Iberia Project through Entrust in Spain. Thanks for listening again today to Entrust Equipping Leaders.
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Transcript
Todd Randall [00:00:02]: In today's episode of Entrust Equipping Leaders, we pick up our conversation with Liz Loeffler and Barb Allen. Both have served God overseas and in the U.S. They've entered a time that some might call retirement. Barb Allen [00:00:18]: I don't know all the answers yet, but like every new life phase, Jesus accompanies us. And He has a plan. Liz Loeffler [00:00:26]: I've often wondered if this is what it means by making me lie down in green pastures. They’re not exactly the green pastures I was anticipating. Todd Randall [00:00:36]: We hope that by the end of this two-part series, you'll discover some good questions to ask of yourself, your family, and others. Even if you're not called to full time ministry as a follower of Jesus, can you ever really retire from serving him? Laurie Lind [00:00:56]: Both of you are considered officially in quotation marks here, maybe, “retired.” And so how did you each come to that decision to retire? Barb Allen [00:01:08]: Well, I'll start out. My husband, Jeff was retired and had some health issues. And after a while, I realized I sensed that was from the Lord as well, that we both needed to be on the same page. We'd had pretty separate ministries before. The difficulty is that Jeff hasn't found a niche, but he's encouraged that I want to be in ministry with him. So that was part of the decision for me. And we're waiting on God, realizing that it's not about purpose or even serving, but like Jesus, it's God's will that we go through trials and sometimes suffering to glorify Him. And I was reading not long ago in John 16, where it talks about Jesus, says, in this world, you will have trouble, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. And so simply having more time to spend with Jesus, more time to work with Jeff, we're trusting Him and trying to consider it all joy amidst all of the trials. And then I also know that I need to daily surrender all of my expectations to Him, because doing women's training and these leadership conferences that we've done for so long, it's in my blood now. And so not to be as involved is a little hard. But Auggie, thankfully, has said, barb, you can come over to Europe anytime you want to. So I'm planning to be back over there in April next year. I think that I need just to daily surrender all of my expectations to God's love and sovereignty and simply let Him work and show us what the next steps are. Once again, it's taking one day at a time and trusting Him that he will work either. Philippians 310 has been a big verse for me, where it talks about how Paul says, I want to be one with Christ in the power of his resurrection and in the fellowship of his sufferings. So I don't know all the answers yet. Just been retired for a few months. But like every new life phase, Jesus accompanies us and has a plan. Laurie Lind [00:03:40]: We'll follow up on more of that, what that all looks like. But Liz, how did you come to the decision of retiring? Liz Loeffler [00:03:48]: Well, it was kind of an easy decision when I did my last facilitation from a hospital bed. Laurie Lind [00:03:55]: In Russia? Liz Loeffler [00:03:56]: No. Here in the States. Laurie Lind [00:03:58]: Oh, okay. Liz Loeffler [00:03:59]: It was May of 2022. Last May, I ended up in congestive heart failure, pneumonia, and then got COVID on top of it. In 2020, I was diagnosed with Parkinson's and I was trying to keep on work. I cut back my hours when I got the Parkinson's diagnosis so I could do exercises to keep the effects of Parkinson's at bay. But with all this illness and the time downtime, it's kind of worked on my Parkinson's and made the symptoms worse. So right now the reason my background is blurred. I'm in a nursing home after it became clear that I wasn't going to bounce back real quickly and I'm still struggling with a great deal of tiredness and fatigue that it was time to retire. So I retired after 30 plus years of service in April of this year. Laurie Lind [00:04:56]: It seems like God had to, I don't know if I would say it was God, but, He had to throw a whole lot of illnesses at you to convince you to retire. Almost. Liz Loeffler [00:05:07]: I've often wondered if this is what it means by making me lie down in green pastures. We're not exactly the green pastures I was anticipating. And I did say to him when I was feeling more and more tired, I said, oh, Lord, I just wish I could go someplace and rest and have everything done for me. Well, I kind of got the answer to my prayer, but it wasn't exactly the way I was thinking about it. But like Barbara, I could almost echo what she said. I'm just taking one day at a time, and it's hard for me because I've been a planner from when I worked for Procter Gamble. You planned your work, your work, your plan. And I was planning to keep on facilitating online. I really enjoyed the online facilitation since my travel was kind of limited because of the Parkinson's. Really was enjoying online facilitation, but because of the fatigue and tiredness, I just have the time and focus and just trying to get time by myself. I've been interrupted three times on this podcast. The door has opened, even though I have a sign on the door, I'm on a podcast, please don't come in. I mean, they're coming in for meds and everything, so my time is not my own. So I'm hoping at some point, if the Lord's willing, I can get back into ministry doing online facilitation. But for now, my focus has to be on getting my body back in shape. Laurie Lind [00:06:29]: I find it so amazing you're doing this interview from a nursing home, and I've seen you on some various meetings of Entrust lately, and here you are. You are amazingly still right in there with everything that's going on. Liz Loeffler [00:06:47]: Well, not as much as I'd like to be, but I've tried to stay involved with some of the important things that have been going on within the ministry and give my input because of the 30 years of experience that I've had with them. Laurie Lind [00:07:00]: When we talk about retirement, there's a, kind of a financial or a legal side of it, like when you officially say, I'm retiring, I'm going to start taking my Social Security funding or whatever. But beside that, retiring in the sense of your corporate jobs, you could say, I retired. I'm not going to the office anymore. But retiring when your life is ministry, it's not quite as cut and dried as going in and out of an office every day, nine to five job. So what does retirement look like? I realize you're both kind of taking it a day at a time, as you've mentioned, but how does it feel and what does it look like to be retired as a person involved in serving the Lord? Liz Loeffler [00:07:49]: Well, I think because of my fatigue issues, I'm grateful that I don't have the responsibility I had for preparing lesson plans and following up with people. I could not take that pressure. But the Lord has kind of given me a ministry of encouragement among some of the residents here and some of the staff. I've prayed with them. We have a staff member. One of my aides is from Ethiopia, another one is from Cuba. So the whole world is coming to my doorstep now, and I'm just as the Lord gives me opportunity, sharing and praying with Him when the opportunity arises for that, I'm just doing whatever ministry he puts in front of me. But it's nothing like what I was used to doing. Barb Allen [00:08:38]: I'm kind of enjoying sleeping in on some days, frankly. It's nice not to have that alarm clock going off. But I think retirement still means I'm involved with people. Ministry doesn't stop just because you change organizations or you are working more out of your home or whatever. I don't think it won't stop until we breathe our last breaths. And so I'm really, once again, living out of taking one day at a time. People have always been my focus, and they'll continue to be. Like, we have a neighborhood full of really needy people, and so both of us are consistently talking with people and inviting them over or praying with them, like Liz was talking about and all that on a regular basis because we walk out of our condo door and there they are. So I will continue also to work within trust trainings and mentoring when needed. Like I said, I'm planning to go back over to Europe next April. 1 of the things I always wanted to do in retirement was to relearn the guitar. It was a really fun outlet for me. When I was 30, this was before I even had kids. But once the kids started coming, I just didn't have the time to invest in it anymore. And of course, we're with our grands, our grandkids pretty often, and that's great too, because yesterday I was challenged from our pastor to think through a family vision, so that was challenging to me. So we'll see what God comes up with for us. I above all want to draw closer, spend more time with the Lord. And one of the scriptures that has really been meaningful to me when Jeff is in this time of difficulty with physical issues is 1 Peter 4:19, when it says, therefore, those who experience trials and suffering entrust yourselves to a creator God and continue to do good things. So that's kind of what I'm trying to do, is entrust and engage in my faithful God and let him tell me what next good thing he wants me to do. Liz Loeffler [00:11:08]: One of the things that the Lord has directed me was reading through the book of Job because I was feeling a little Jobish because I had to give up my cottage, know I'm here in this nursing home. I don't know what the next step is going to be and everything that I held near and dear has kind of gotten scattered to the four winds. But he has been just so good in, first of all, assuring me that he's taken care of me for 75 years and he's not going to stop now. Secondly, and this is the thing that has been a real anchor for me, that I truly believe in the sovereignty of God and this path that he has me on is not an Oops, it's not a plan B. It's the path that he had ordained for me for this phase of my life. And my responsibility is to be faithful to Him and glorify Him as best I can. And that's my prayer that I can continue to do that. Laurie Lind [00:12:05]: Both of you, I was going to ask you, I don't know, what do you miss about your overseas times and then what are you just passionate about now? Passionate about now? Liz Loeffler [00:12:19]: I just miss, I guess in one sense, the exoticness of being in different cultures and being part of it, not as a tourist, but being there with real purpose and meeting the women and seeing how the common bond in Christ pulls us together. That I miss. I also missed in part in coming back to the States, the total dependency that I felt as a single woman on my own in these foreign countries. Most of the time I lived by myself. I did have roommates off and on, but you just trust the Lord for some interesting situations you find yourself in. But now I found myself in another kind of interesting situation and I feel like I'm depending on the Lord more now than I even have when I was overseas, because the future is so unknown right now. So I just miss the international flavor of working with women from around the world. On the training that we did online. We used to have a lot of nationals and getting up at 07:00 in the morning or earlier so that you could fit within their time zones. I mean, it was thrilling to see and hear and then pour out their hearts. And the course that Barbara spoke about, DDH discovery, Developing a Discerning Heart, was so instrumental in so many women's lives to have an understanding of the way they were created in the image of God and how that was tarnished. And particularly when they storyboard their lives and found the lies that they believed, seeing them come alive in realizing what lies they had believed and transferring that to the truth of Scripture. And the AHA moments, that's what I missed the most. Laurie Lind [00:14:25]: What do you mean by AHA moments? Liz Loeffler [00:14:28]: Well, just when all of a sudden they would share stuff, particularly in that course developing a Discerning Heart that they never shared publicly before and the freedom that gave them. And when they understood the truth of God's Word and said, oh my goodness, I remember one woman said, nobody ever listened to me before. I never thought I had anything worth saying. It's those AHA moments that often came with tears from the depths of their hearts. That's what I miss. Barb Allen [00:15:00]: I have to second that because I enjoy being with women as much as I do. To see them go so much deeper with the Lord in their personal lives, in their ability to lead Bible studies, in their understanding of God's Word and their understanding of Him who he is. I've come to the point where I see that is one of our biggest challenges is helping people understand who God is. And when they do, their faith just takes off. It's just amazing. So I saw that up close and personal in Africa because those women over there, they get nothing. And I was there in November for this developing a discerning heart course. And those women, I think of one woman in particular who was able to apply the whole aspect of forgiveness in a way that she had told people about before but never applied to her own life, marriage and life with her family. Her life was totally radically changed. She went from kind of a little bit mousy with a drawn woman to just sharing with everybody what God had done in her life during that week. So it was just a thrill to see that. And I look forward to having opportunities to see her and others. And it will be, of course, online because I'm not planning to go back to Africa. But still we pick up where we left off with many of these women and we see how God is still changing their lives, still working. I miss probably more face to face with my European disciples more than anything but thankful for things like Zoom and WhatsApp to keep in touch. Yeah. Laurie Lind [00:16:58]: Are there fresh other things? What are you passionate about these days in 2023? Barb Allen [00:17:07]: Well, I've been doing a pretty in depth Bible study with some neighbors. And one of the neighbors who I thought, she just is so scattered, she needs God's word to keep her more together in her life. And it was interesting because just well, right around Easter time, she said when she went to church, god was telling me I need to do Bible study. And so I was trying to figure out who am I going to do Bible study with? And then you called me. I called her the day after Easter, kind of in fear and trembling, thinking she's probably not going to want to do this, but God, you're in charge and I'll let you be God. She just said yes, I'll do it. And so now we're starting to do this Bible, in depth Bible study together. And she can't wait. She's just really excited about it starts on Wednesday. Liz Loeffler [00:18:03]: Well, like I said, my main focus right now, what I'm excited about is trying to get better so that I can have full health and strength. And I have been invigorated by things like this podcast and the few things that I can jump in on. And I think I was telling you before we started, I got an email from the woman that's in charge of Russia. She has a pastor in Uganda that is desperate for our training. So I sent a note to her folks that are involved in Africa. And, you know, can anybody reach out to this pastor? He wants his women trained. He wants his training now. And I thought, the Lord's still using me to spread this a little bit. So this little highlights and I'd love to get back into it full time once I get my strength back. Barb Allen [00:18:54]: Interestingly enough, too, when we were in Africa last November, there was a group of women who came for the very first time from Chad, and they were French speaking, but some of them could speak fairly good English. And so after the course, god just kind of gave me this idea, well, why wouldn't it work for our French staff to minister to them? And so they're trying to work out a time. It's hard right now because security is really bad in most of these African countries. Almost all of the African countries are going through coups or close to going through coups. But the French women are excited to minister to the Chadians, and the Chadians are excited to have them come so that they can get further along in their training in more of their mother tongue. So really fun things. You don't have to always be going overseas. Laurie Lind [00:19:55]: I mean, both of you. God has put you with just the right people at the right time, in the right place, it seems. Just again, and again to bring Agi into this story from Hungary and Vera from Russia and connecting people from France with people in Chad and so forth. I mean, oh my. What would you like your legacy to be? Liz Loeffler [00:20:21]: Just that I love God and served him faithfully. Barb Allen [00:20:25]: I would say that's similar. The thing that came to me is, God, please be glorified in my life, whatever you want to do. Laurie Lind [00:20:34]: And finally, any words of wisdom to someone who will be listening to this. Either considering if God wants them to begin to serve full time, like either they're young or they're retiring, but maybe God is calling them into ministry now or knowing when to retire. Any words of wisdom on starting into ministry or quote unquote, retiring from ministry? Barb Allen [00:21:02]: I would say, don't limit God, let God have his way in your life. Because he can do just like Ephesians 320 says, exceeding abundantly beyond all that we could ask or imagine in Christ Jesus. And I'm just flabbergasted often with the fact that he has used us in so many ways, but it's only been because he made the plan and we just said, okay, and your Holy Spirit's power, we'll do it. Just show us how. So I would say whether you're young or old, the young ones don't be afraid to raise support. It's one of the most challenging but the most gratifying things. It's just so exciting to see supporters get on board with evangelism and discipleship and to see their lives changed as a result, too. It's not just about supporting us me, Liz, whatever. It's about God having the glory and then seeing growth in people. I've had a couple of supporters come to Christ because they realized they weren't Christians. So there have been a lot of fun, happy, lots of laughter, and lots of great opportunities. As far as retiring, I wish I knew more about it at this point, but I think retire, the word retire has a negative tone to it. It's like, I'm not going to be doing anything. Oh, you will be, you will be. You'll still have the focus on people, you'll still minister to people, you'll still see lives changed, and that is worth hanging around for, and he'll lead you into different things. That's just the way he is. But it's really about getting to know God better, too. Every phase is about getting to know God better. Liz Loeffler [00:23:04]: Yes. Amen to that. Barbara and I'd just like to say, if you don't feel you're qualified, think again. If God is calling you, I'll just share this. I have done this training all over the world. I've worked with people with master's degrees up one arm and doctorates down the other. I don't even have a college degree. I went right from the business world, right from high school to the business world. I did go to Bible school and I got certificates from Philadelphia College of the Bible. And when I first joined Entrust, they wouldn't let you even touch the curriculum unless you had a seminary. I figured, you know, I'd just be doing my administrative duties like I had done all my life as the executive secretary. But God opened up Eastern Europe, and there was such a demand for women's ministries, they were willing to give me a try. They put me through a really rigorous test, including a seminar with Anne Graham Watts for expository Bible teaching preparation, and then sent me in with one of our educators to make sure that I got the salient points from each lesson if I could work through a translator. I jumped through a lot of hoops, and they finally decided I could work with a women's ministry. And I am just totally amazed at what the Lord has allowed me to do with my limited formal background. So please, if Lord calls you, don't say, well, I'm not prepared. I've got to do this, I got to do that. Just say yes. I didn't say yes at first. I fought him, I think, every tooth and nail, every step of the way, but he was such a gracious God and worked with me and gave me confidence to step out. And as far as retiring goes, let me just throw this in. As Barbara said, you never retire. You're just on a different mission field. And that's where I feel the Lord has placed me on a different mission field and the world's coming to me. But for those of you that are thinking about retirement, or I would just really encourage you to think about getting into a retirement community before you have to. I came to this retirement community five years ago, and I'm sure glad I was here when the pieces started falling apart so that I had a place to go. So don't wait until you have to go. You can establish the community. I'm with Calvary fellowship homes. A third of the residents here are either former missionaries or pastors. It's a little taste of heaven, and definitely some of them are still working. So you never really retire from the Lord's business. He just puts you in a different mission field. Laurie Lind [00:26:01]: So what is God doing in your heart? Even as you've been listening to this interview with Barb and Liz, whatever it might be, I urge you to stop and pray, listen to the Lord, and then start exploring a little bit. One place you can look is our website. We need a lot of different kinds of people right now. Our site would be entrust4.org/Join-us. That's Entrust four. Entrust the number four slash Join dash us. When we come back next time we're traveling together to Spain. Todd Randall [00:26:47]: You've been listening to Entrust Equipping Leaders. We'd really appreciate your giving us a review, subscribing to this podcast and sharing it with others. Thank you. See you next time.
Transcript
Todd Randall [00:00:02]: Welcome back to Entrust Equipping Leaders. Today we're diving into this idea of being called and then of retiring. Laurie Lind's guests are Barb Allen and Liz Loeffler. Laurie Lind [00:00:16]: Hey, everybody, I'm Laurie, the host of the Entrust Equipping Leaders podcast. And thank you, Todd, once again for that fine introduction. As Todd said, today our guests are Barb and Liz, two long-term Entrust staff members. We're really going to get into their sense of calling today. How did they know God wanted them to serve him? They both left very comfortable corporate jobs. One of them gave up on the dream of being a nun, and one of them actually came to the point of considering taking her own life when she got into full-time ministry and hit some pretty hard times. All of that is ahead today. And then in two weeks, we'll talk about how do you know when it's time to stop? Or is it ever time to stop when you're serving God? So let's jump in. Liz Loeffler [00:01:07]: My big goal in life had always been to be an executive secretary in corporate America, and full time ministry was not on my radar screen whatsoever, particularly if it involved going to a different country, eating different foods, learning different language. I'll pray for you, I'll give to you, but don't ask me to do it. And for 14 years, I was very content and happy working at Procter and Gamble as an executive secretary in their sales office in Philadelphia, till God suddenly started to shake things up. And I met a Bible smuggler at an Evangelism explosion clinic that worked for Brother Andrew. And I had read the book God’s Smuggler years before that, and I thought if I was ever to get into full time ministry, that would be exciting, but I'm too much of a chicken to smuggle Bibles. That would not be something I'd be interested I would be willing to do. But God worked in a number of mysterious ways to bring me back in touch with this tall Dutchman I met at Evangelism Explosion. And to make a long story short, for six years I worked as their area coordinator, setting up speaking engagements for Bible smugglers in churches and different venues and arranging housing when they were in the area. And one day, one of the gentlemen that was there said to me, when are you going to come smuggle with us? And I laughed in his face and I said, I got a new house, a new car. I can't take a month, a summer off from Procter and Gamble without pay. I only have two weeks. He says, you only need four. I said, I only have two weeks. I can't afford even two weeks without pay. Would you believe in the next six months, Procter and Gamble changed their vacation policy not once, but twice, after I've been working with them for twelve years. And I suddenly had four weeks vacation. And I said, God, are you serious? And I took my first Bible smuggling trip in 81 and at the same time I was getting very disenchanted with the corporate world and ended up going to work for my church. I took my second Bible smuggling trip three years later to confirm that what I felt Lord calling me to do. Enrolled in Bible school while I was still working at my church. And after eight and a half years at my church, I joined Entrust in Vienna, Austria, November 1, 1989, and nine days later the Berlin Wall fell. So I had a front row seat to the opening up of the east and Russia. And after the Vienna office closed, I went kicking and screaming to Moscow, Russia, and figured I wouldn't last 24 hours. And I lasted 15 years. Laurie Lind [00:03:50]: Well, while we're with you, Liz, and then we'll come to your story Barb. But Liz, how did people around you feel as you were transitioning, suddenly saying, oh, I'm going to go smuggle Bibles and now I'm going to actually leave corporate America and so forth? Liz Loeffler [00:04:05]: Well, my cousin ... I only have two first cousins, both only children … our family wasn't very fruitful multiplying. My cousin, who was a businessman, thought I was absolutely nuts leaving a good job at Proctor and Gamble to go to work for my church and was very upset that I was going to Bible smuggle. And if I got caught, who was going to pay the ransom? I said, Nobody pays the ransom. If I get caught, I get caught. And if anything happens, then it's the Lord's will. But this is what I feel the Lord wants me to do. So other people at church said, we were wondering when you were finally going to make the big plunge and do this. And because of all the years of working with different churches, setting up speaking occasions for Bible smuggling, I didn't realize. But I had been working for like six, eight years on support, raising in all these churches. Just jumped on board. And I raised my support in February. From February to November 1, I was fully supported. Laurie Lind [00:05:03]: Wow. My goodness. And one more question for you, Liz, about that. That's amazing. You were making this decision and easing out of corporate life and finally easing into full time ministry as a single person and still single to this day. We'll add, as am I. What implications did that have on this decision making and these changes in your life? Liz Loeffler [00:05:28]: Well, very little because all my life I wanted to be, like I said, a corporate secretary. I think I missed the mommy gene. I was never opposed to marriage. If it happened, fine, and it almost did, but the guy that I would have married in a heartbeat ended up marrying somebody else. And later I was so glad that we never got married. It would not have lasted at all. But I always wanted to be a career girl, not a wife and mother. Like I said, I was open to it if the Lord willed it. But he knew the desires of my heart and I have no regrets. I could have got married several times, but I wasn't interested in the guys other than this one. Laurie Lind [00:06:13]: So then, Barb, your story, of course, is all different. How did you know God wanted you to work for Him full time? Barb Allen [00:06:21]: Well, interestingly enough, I come from a background where I felt like when I was a young high school student, that God was calling me to be a nun. Yeah, I know it seems rather strange, but I knew that people needed God around the world, and somehow that was my only frame of reference because that was the church background that we had. And I just knew that that was something I needed to do. Well, my parents were pretty staunch in the religion, and I just thought, well, okay, we'll see how it goes. That's what my mom said. And when I came to Faith, then I kind of switched my gears a little bit and thought, well, I don't know about becoming a nun, but maybe God wants me to serve Him someplace overseas. And our family background is German, so I kind of had that in the back of my mind. I joined another Christian organization in 1976, and as we were heading to our all-staff conference, unfortunately there was a huge flood and seven of our staff members were drowned in this flood. And at the time I realized I could be here today, gone tomorrow, so could anybody else in this world, Christian or non-Christian. So God impressed on me that urgency of reaching people for Him. And I'd always felt like Germany was the place. But God used Matthew 25, the parable of the talents, to help me see how I needed to invest my talents in an area of the world where there was very few Christians. Only 3% of the people in that country went to church at that time, and I think it's at least that bad, if not worse now. But he pushed me out of my comfort zone, showing me that there were many people here in the US. That could do my job, but few that would serve Him in another country with another language. So that was the beginning of my journey. Not only ministering in Germany for 16 years and Jeff joined me at one point, but also then coming back later to Hungary. So in all, it was 22 years, not as many as Lou's, but still amazing. So I never thought I would be overseas as long as I was. But God had a plan and he used scripture as well as people. Laurie Lind [00:09:10]: So what was that job you had in the US that you realized other people could do if you left? Barb Allen [00:09:16]: Well, I was a secretary as well, and I worked for the international recruiter and strategy planner for Phillips Petroleum Company. And so that was right along the line of what I had gotten my degree in. And so I was glad to be doing something that was full of my talents. But when I realized that I could do this and be in ministry full time, then I jumped at the chance. Laurie Lind [00:09:50]: You decided to get involved in ministry full time and actually go overseas prior to having met Jeff, who's your husband, is that right? Barb Allen [00:09:59]: Well, no. We actually worked together on the same team on campus, as well as part time in an office situation. And he and I went over with this team to Germany in 1979 and continued to work there. And that's where we actually fell in love with each other. But I was still more involved in ministry, ministry, ministry than I was trying to find a man. So I kind of shoved him off. So it was a few years later that I finally got the idea, actually, from God. Timing is always his timing is always the best that Jeff was the one and that we needed to be married. Laurie Lind [00:10:41]: As you were deciding to get into full time ministry, and here you'd had this kind of impressive corporate job as well, like Liz had. How did your family and people around you feel? And especially also you weren't heading towards being a nun maybe anymore. What were the impacts and the feelings around you in all of that? Barb Allen [00:11:04]: My parents were distraught. They thought I'd gotten involved in some kind of a cult that … was kind of the main word going around Christian circles at that time. And I brought home different friends who were also involved in the ministry, and that didn't seem to make any difference. And I sensed that God was still calling me to do that, but just not as a nun. And so my parents actually disowned me for a number of months. And finally I went home from my college. I graduated from college, went home and worked for this Phillips Petroleum Company. And then about two years into it, I sensed, okay, from the Lord, this is the time I have for you, Barb. And so that's when I then went with fear and trembling, actually, to my parents and said, I really still feel like God wants me to do this, and I feel like now is the time I need to do it. I sense this from the Lord. And they said, really? Without batting an eye, my dad said, you know, we now see why Jesus is so important to you, and we give you our blessing, and so would you please pray with us that we would have the faith to trust Jesus like you do? That was like whoa. I could not imagine because I made so many mistakes. But somehow they caught a glimpse, a vision of what it meant to really walk in the power of the Spirit, and that's what they needed. So they were just really confused and concerned that I was going to be a beggar on the street corner asking people for money the rest of my life. And that that wasn't it at all. Of course. And like Liz, I raised my support really fast. It was not even a month that it took me. Yeah, the people in the church just got behind me, and they really sensed this is what Barb needs to do, too. That was another confirmation. Laurie Lind [00:13:17]: We can name your ministry. I think Barb; was this all with Campus Crusade, which is known Cru. Barb Allen [00:13:24]: Yes. Campus Crusade for 30 years and then Entrust starting in 2007. Laurie Lind [00:13:30]: Okay, so you started off heading towards full time ministry as a single woman, and then somewhere along the way there, you fell in love with Jeff, you got married, you guys had children. And what were some of the impacts on both the decision to serve the Lord full time and then to make these additional decisions about marriage and kids overseas and so forth? Barb Allen [00:13:56]: I feel ever since I read the scripture, that God wants us to take one day at a time that I've pretty much lived that way. And there were times when I was shocked that somebody wanted me to do something like overseas or I never thought we'd have three children and eight grandchildren, that kind of thing. But as time has gone on and we've been challenged to do different things, it was like we prayed about it. God seemed to be saying yes, and we just went whether it was we did have a little stint in Russia, and we had some different things going on in eastern Germany, in Czech Republic, in Moldova, Ukraine, different places, and it just seemed like that was what God wants us to do. And the kids just came with us. They didn't know any difference. Laurie Lind [00:14:51]: Well, how were your parents feeling about I've heard sometimes parents don't like having their grandchildren far away from them. Were your parents still alive as you started having kids, or how did they respond to you developing a family overseas? Barb Allen [00:15:09]: They really let us make our own decisions, which I'm really thankful for. And while they might not have agreed with what we did, they felt like they should stay out of those decisions. And so I think that when we came home, we were very diligent to do our furlough much of our furlough time with our parents so that they wouldn't feel left out. But we really did ask the Lord, make this a very special time with lots of good memories for them to hang on to when we went home and then went back to Germany. But both sets of parents came over to visit us, and my mom and dad were over there for both our first and last babies, and that was very special to me to have my mom and dad there. Laurie Lind [00:15:58]: Well, both of you, then. I know you could tell story after story after story about your times overseas and just all the different things that happened. And I hate to cut any of that out, but I was wondering if you just might mention what were a couple of the greatest joys, one or two joys and one or two of the greatest challenges for each of you in terms of just serving God full time in ministry in a different culture. Liz Loeffler [00:16:29]: My biggest struggle is I don't have a linguistic bone in my body. And after four years of struggling to learn Russian, even my sending mission, Greater Europe Mission, and then I was on loan to entrust Greater Europe Mission, puts a high premium on learning the language. Even they said, Liz, give it up. I was in my 40s when I went to Russia, and the fact that the Lord was able to accomplish anything through me with training that stretched across all eleven time zones of Russia, and it's still going on today, amid the chaos that's happening there is just a work of him. I sure didn't know what I was doing, so that was a real handicap. Many times I cried, one of the first words I tried to learn was [Russian greeting] which is basically the formal hello. And I don't know how you got a ZH sound out of your mouth. And I remember putting my head down on the desk and crying and saying, lord, there's no way I can get this language. So my favorite phrase in Russian turns out to be is Benichi yaniponimayu, which basically means, I'm sorry, I don't understand you. Barb Allen [00:17:40]: Good job. You let them know right in the beginning, right? Liz Loeffler [00:17:42]: Yeah, but apparently I pronounced it fairly well and they thought I was fluent in Russian and they would come back with a whole slew of Russian. And I just kept repeating is vaniki yaniponi mayo, yaniponi mayo. I don't understand. So the fact that the Lord was able to use me the way he did is just I stand amazed at what he did, and that will still be one of the highlights of my life. And I just heard from the leader that I worked with who was the main woman for the Baptist Union, the largest evangelical group in Russia who is still running the program strongly, and it spilled over into Belarus. She told me, they're just celebrating their 15th year of our training, so all glory goes to God, because this little girl did not know what she was doing when she got there. Couldn't speak the language, never could. And thank heavens the Lord gave me two very strong Russian women that spoke English fluently, and that's how I more or less survived. And it gave the Russians a chance to really do the program themselves without any Western interference. Half the time they had explained to me what was going on and I would go, yeah, that sounds like it was working well. Okay, yeah, go ahead. It was very interesting situation. And again, God gets all the glory for what God accomplished. Laurie Lind [00:19:05]: What were the years you were in Russia. Liz Loeffler [00:19:07]: From 91 to 2009. Laurie Lind [00:19:10]: Have you been back since? Liz Loeffler [00:19:13]: I went back in 2019 for the 20th anniversary of the training in Russia. And that was a great thrill because we had people from all over the country coming in and to see how the Nationals this is the thrilling part. The Nationals translated it into their language. And the Nationals are teaching the Nationals in their heart language. And one quick story. There was one woman that told us her house caught on fire and the only thing she grabbed on her way out the door was all the Entrust materials because they valued them so much. Barb Allen [00:19:50]: Oh, how dear. Liz Loeffler [00:19:53]: For years they had prayed, they had a big map of Russia laid over the table. And they prayed that somehow women's training would come to that country because they had no women's training whatsoever. And she said, after we got this program started, after the Lord got this program started, that this was the answer to their prayers and their tears. Wow. Laurie Lind [00:20:17]: And maybe can you just briefly explain what the training was like? What were they wanting training in and what did the training involve? Liz Loeffler [00:20:22]: Well, training how to lead women in Bible studies. We used the more extended curriculum that we used, where we taught them how to do Bible studies, how to study the Bible themselves, how to do evangelism, how to work with women's groups under male leadership. And the men were skeptical at first, but when they saw what a trained women could do 90% of the churches in Russia were made up of women, and they didn't know what to do with the women. But finally, when they had a woman that was trained and could counsel from scripture, they knew what to do with the women that were coming to them. And they were just totally unprepared. But they would send them to these women. This one woman, this one pastor in the far east of Russia, didn't want his wife to come, but finally sent her. And he turned out to be one of our biggest champions and actually funded the training center in the far east of Russia. Laurie Lind [00:21:25]: That's amazing. Across eleven time zones, like you said. Liz Loeffler [00:21:29]: They collapsed this down to nine time zones. I don't know what happened to the other time zones, but now there's only nine. Laurie Lind [00:21:34]: Only nine. It's a big country. How about Barb for you? How many years altogether were you overseas? And I know you mentioned several countries you've been in. And what was a joy and a challenge for you along the way? Barb Allen [00:21:51]: Probably the biggest challenge was also language learning. I don't know how they tell you that you aren't a good prospect for language learning, but I probably shouldn't have done it either. Liz but they don't tell you that. That's just it. They look at the fact that you sense that God is calling you to do this and they let you go for it. So that's what happened to me. Except that after I think it was two months of language study in German in a German speaking city, it was all in German. And that just floored me. I couldn't depend on any English words at all. And I was living with a Japanese girl, also learning German. I got to the point I was so bummed out, I was so demoralized that I considered taking my life. And so this was a beautiful German town and had a really nice bridge over the main part of the city. And I thought, one night I'm going to go out, I'm just going to toss myself over the edge and that'll be that. Laurie Lind [00:23:03]: Oh, my goodness. Barb Allen [00:23:04]: So I was on my way over there to do it and God just spoke to me, but he used something that really was meaningful to me. And that was, I thought, what would happen the next day when somebody finds my body that in the newspaper? It would say American Christian woman takes her life. And I thought, Whoa, I couldn't dishonor God in that way. That would be the ultimate. Yeah, I just couldn't dishonor his name that way. And so that pushed me away from that bridge and from doing that. And I just decided, lord, you've called me here. You're going to provide. And so I just kept on learning. I must have gone through three or four different courses as time went on. And finally I reached a plateau and I realized, hey, I'm getting more fluent in this language. And then somebody said, oh, are you from North Germany? That was the biggest compliment I ever got from a German because, you know, they're very formal and they'll tell you real quick when you're not doing something right, that's fine. That's their mentality. And I needed to hear that at different times. But I realized, yeah, I can do this. And God has continued to use the German language in my life because now I'm working with a Swiss German speaking woman who's translating DDH. Laurie Lind [00:24:41]: Quick pause here. Barb just mentioned DDH. What on earth is that? DDH stands for Developing a Discerning Heart. It's one of the modules that Entrust Equipping Leaders provides for women. We also have a module called FRL, which is Facilitating Relational Learning and that might come up as well. You're listening to an interview I did with Barb Allen and Liz Loeffler of Entrust about how they knew God was calling them to serve Him full time and some of the joys and challenges they've experienced in their years of ministry. OK, back to the program. Barb Allen [00:25:18]: And she is just so thrilled to be able to do this. And I'm giving her some pointers about how to do it. And she said, Barb, I want you to come over and do the DDH in German sometime with some of our Swiss church leaders. Oh, wow. So we'll see if that materializes. But some of your greatest trauma turns out to be one of your greatest blessings. I'll say that. And then a big blessing for me has just been in the last four or five years, I met Ági Székely, who's now the regional director for she has when I met her, her life was so far away from where she is now, and she'll tell you as well that God just got a hold of her. She just started submitting and surrendering to him. And then when I left five years ago, she took over all of my well, I challenged her to come on staff, and when she did, she took over the local ministry that I've been involved in, and now she's doing it on a regional basis. So she's just really decided God wants her to do this. And God has raised her support, which is very unusual for a Hungarian, so for anybody in Europe, but for certain old Eastern European people just don't have that mindset yet anyway. So she's been probably my biggest delight. Liz Loeffler [00:26:48]: I just wanted to make sure that the listeners understood that Ági was Hungarian. And what we try to do is get nationals to embrace the training and pass it on to other nationals, and we get out of the way as soon as we can. When we feel that they're competent, we don't hang on forever. We train them and go on. And it's just been a thrill for me to watch. The same things happened in Latvia. The Latvians are now totally indigenous, and it's just been incredible. And it's happening with the nationals. They're working with other people. One of the things I just got an email from one of the women in central Siberia that said, we've come to know sisters that we never knew before. And at one point we had three different denominations studying together in Russia, which was unheard of, and all their pastors, we always try to get involved with pastors involved so they don't feel like we're trying to take over the church. And they were so grateful. Barb Allen [00:27:50]: Yes, thank you for mentioning that. Liz. That Ági's. Hungarian, actually. She's half Hungarian, half Polish, so she has one foot in each country. Laurie Lind [00:27:59]: And I think she's fluent in both, what, Hungarian and Polish and English and maybe I don't know how many other languages. Laurie Lind [00:28:09]: Oh yeah. Spanish. Of course.Wow. Yeah. So she's the Entrust Equipping Women European director now, is that correct? Barb Allen [00:28:18]: I’m not sure exactly what her title is, but she works with all of the European country coordinators. Laurie Lind [00:28:25]: So we started today on Entrust Equipping Leaders asking Barb and Liz how God led them into full time ministry. And I love that the conversation took them right down to people who have taken over where they left off. Next time, some of their thoughts about retiring. Barb Allen [00:28:45]: Like every new life phase, Jesus accompanies us and has a plan. Liz Loeffler [00:28:53]: And I did say to Him when I was feeling more and more tired, I said, oh, Lord, I just wish I could go someplace and rest and have everything done for me. Well, I kind of got the answer to my prayer, but it wasn't exactly the way I was thinking about it. Laurie Lind [00:29:06]: Get all the context next time on Entrust Equipping Leaders I'm your host, Laurie Lind. Thanks for joining us.
Transcript
Jeff Hurtak [00:00:00]: Gen Z's just, they are what we call the king of the side hustle. They want to find ten different ways to do what they need to do. Gen X is a little difficult because they're between two very strong generations, and so they're a little quieter. They say millennials’ main motivation’s safety, trying to just be okay. Tricia Lambert [00:00:26]: Alpha have never … they don't know a world without Internet, without a smartphone. Todd Randall [00:00:32]: Welcome back to Entrust Equipping Leaders. Today Jeff Hurtak and Tricia Lambert rejoin your host, Laurie Lind, in a conversation about generations: Gen X, Gen Y, Gen Z, millennials, Gen Alpha. The list goes on and on. In fact, if you missed our previous episode, you may want to go back and check that one out first. Today, the conversation turns to each generation's spiritual characteristics and how Christians can be sensitive to and ready to serve upcoming generations. Laurie Lind [00:01:08]: Well, then … we talk about the Christian world and the local church. What do you see as maybe sort of trends or characteristics just in terms of faith? First of all, in, say, millennials gen X. Gen Z. What are some trends that you two are aware of? Tricia Lambert [00:01:27]: So Jeff can correct me after I throw out here what I think millennials are. So millennials were often ... there was still a high percentage that went to church. They grew up in the church because they were being raised by boomer parents, and that was a value. It was just sort of a cultural expectation, cultural value that they had. So now what? You see, millennials, the very common thing is they're deconstructing their faith to figure out what they really believe and what is just things that they used to do, because that was what their family did. So they're on a quest to discover, I think, right now, what they really believe and what role religion does play in their life, and who is this God that they hear about? There's no cultural support for millennials and their faith. So it's very much of an individual pursuit, and you see that as they pursue that, they come out all different places because it's an individual. So, Jeff, what would you add or take away from what I just said? Jeff Hurtak [00:02:32]: Yeah, for sure. I mean, at the end of the day, millennials hate the word deconstruction, but it's true, right? A millennial will never agree. I'm not deconstructing. I'm just figuring it out. Right. And Gen Z is actually going to be even more against the word deconstruction. But really, with millennials, yeah, we see. Raised by boomers, a lot of the younger age were raised by Gen Xers at that tip. The 65 through 67 people who were born during that time, the early Xers, and they were all helicopter parents. Gen X were latchkey kids, and they got into a lot of trouble. So when they start raising their children, they're doing the opposite. No more latch keys. Parents are always home with their children. That's why we have longer after school, care, all those types of things with that. I think what we found in millennials was a deep hatred for moralism in the early time of church, right? A lot of us were moralist. We thought that's what earned us our salvation. And then when we become adults, we start doing the opposite. We start thinking, okay, now I have the freedom to do it. I like to think about millennials being the age of religious liberties, right? This is my liberty to do this certain thing. And so we just start seeing that kind of thing where it's always been personal faith, but it's like, this is my faith. That was my parents faith. I need to make my own faith. And now we're seeing this with millennial parents, right? Millennial parents are telling their kids, like, you don't need to necessarily go to church all the time. You can learn about your faith personally. Right. And so now it's like a more personal, for lack of better terms, deconstructed. Right. It's what I want it to be. Laurie Lind [00:04:22]: Trisha you said something about cultural support for their that and some of these generations didn't grow up with that. What would that look like? Or is there cultural support for faith in Christ now, for Gen Alpha or older? Tricia Lambert [00:04:44]: So what I meant by that term was, like, when I was young, everyone went to church, even people that didn't have a real strong personal interest in faith, but it was culturally accepted to go to church. And so you followed that cultural norm, and people took their kids to church. And we also grew up with a Judeo Christian value system of what was right and what was wrong. There was a stronger identification with truth. More people thought the same thing about truth when I was growing up, as opposed to generations. Now truth has become the lingo that I'm familiar with is truth is personal. In the younger generations, as I would say, truth was more of a specific set of beliefs, and most likely, most of the people on your block would agree with you as you grew up. So those kinds of cultural supports where there was a common understanding of what was right, what was wrong, how that culture does things, honesty was important. You go back to the schools, teachers, like, if a kid got in trouble, the teacher carried more authority, and the parents often supported the teacher in that role. Whereas now there's a I don't know that feels really sticky to get into, but I think it's know, we don't have that same view. Laurie Lind [00:06:13]: What would you add to that Jeff? Jeff Hurtak [00:06:16]: Yeah, I mean, uh, in the South you know, I would say, like, the old lingo is: God, family, football type thing. Right. I'll use, like, a practical example. They say that back then it was harder to be an atheist in a football team than it was to be a Christian, right? So, like, atheists were being persecuted on NFL football teams because of the Christian background of it. So you know Christian very much became associated with being a patriot, being American, especially in the south. Right. In the north, we see a little bit of the deviation from that. They're not in the Bible Belt necessarily. So we do still see, like, kids are part of the Bible Belt in Texas and in South United States. You're very much raised in a Christian background, but that Christian background is only as good as your parents or your culture reinforced. The kids are acting like non believers outside of that Sunday school service. Right. But once they are in that Sunday school service, they're Christians. Ten out of ten students will tell you that they were a Christian at birth because they were raised in the church. It's just one of those things where yeah, I think culturally we've leaned towards what I would call just like a personal hedonistic lifestyle. Right. What brings me pleasure, what brings me joy, in the worldly term joy, happiness is what is true. It's practical. This makes me feel good, therefore it's good. Right. But it's not biblical. Laurie Lind [00:07:49]: So we want to more and more be focused on providing and maintaining a biblical understanding of life, a mindset, and more and more. Tricia and I, we're finding that our leaders are younger than us now. My doctor retired, and now I have a doctor who's younger than me, and pretty soon my dentist is going to be younger than me, and my pastor is already younger than me. Those are the generations. My generation is retiring, and we're being led by millennials, Gen Y I don't know, Z. What are the Christian leadership needs among Christians in these up and coming generations? Jeff Hurtak [00:08:30]: I do want to make the comment that the way we view generations is usually before they're adults, right? So the immature millennial versus the mature millennial, we see a big shift in millennials once they become adults. They learn responsibility, they learn these types of things. And so I think, first off, I think we have to remember that we're going to see a shift in Gen Z, and it's going to come within the next three, four years, because a lot of them are entering the workforce now. A majority of the workforce will be millennial in just a couple of years, if not all of it. So I did want to make that comment before we think about it. We shouldn't be fearful of millennials being in leadership positions because of the way we saw them as kids. Right. Because we had a lot of issues as millennials. As kids, we also went through a lot with leadership. I think we have to remember that they're different than they were when we came up with these categories, and that will help us respect leadership that is younger, more understanding that they're maturing just like we and I'm saying we, but I'm one of them, right? That's maturing still because we don't mature until like 35, right? No. So I'm making a joke. Laurie Lind [00:09:46]: I don't think I've matured yet. I'm still hoping it's yeah, right. Jeff Hurtak [00:09:48]: I do think we'll see with new millennial leadership, I do think we'll see more call to action in our faith, especially from these younger pastors who are we're going to see a more diverse faith, if that makes sense. Diverse and also reconciled. Faith is kind of the term a lot of people are using. If that's racial reconciliation, if that's cultural reconciliation. Laurie Lind [00:10:16]: So, yeah. What else? We'll see more calls to action. We'll see more practical. Do you mean even like get out there and take care of the homeless. Put your faith to where the rubber meets the road. Don't just sit in the pew here. That kind of thing. Jeff Hurtak [00:10:31]: I think so not to say that that wasn't happening. I think it's going to be the shift of in the more older generational churches, we have a very strong focus on discipleship, right, and a less of a focus on the outview of the church. We do have seeker friendly, all those types of things. But I think with millennial leadership, we'll see a lot more outward thought. But we might also see we're going to have to fight harder for truth. That outward thought can sometimes override truth. And so that's where we're going to have to call it back. Gen Z, we're going to see that even more gen Z, we're going to see even more action. Gen Z's will only do what makes the world better in their opinion, right. What makes the world better, that's now a relative truth. Right. We would say that it's the gospel, but they may say that it's racial justice or it's all good things. Right. But those are now going to be focal points as opposed to the gospel. Laurie Lind [00:11:35]: What else do you see about that Tricia? Tricia Lambert [00:11:37]: So this is education on my part. I haven't read this to be true, but because it seems like millennials have less of a biblical literacy in their background, one of the things that appeals to them is liturgies of the church, and you find a lot of them returning to that. And so my speculation is I wonder if that gives them an anchor point that they don't feel from the culture and that that's one of the things that appeals to them about those liturgies. And I also see them returning more to spiritual disciplines and some of these ancient church practices that as a boomer, we thought were old and so therefore we didn't want anything to do with them if we were the moderns. And so we kind of threw all of that out. But we do see now the church having more of that and more churches that I attend, I've noticed that they've incorporated more liturgy and things like that. Jeff Hurtak [00:12:41]: I typically see millennials be very ferocious about their faith if they truly believe, if they're true believers, they're ferocious about it because it's something they're passionate about. So they will do everything they can to make sure that is a priority in their life. The issue is that the culture is directly going against that. So unless you're a true believer, you have no chance type thing, right? And I mean that's true in all generations but biblical literacy is down. It goes down every mean. I think general literacy is going down, but biblical literacy is definitely going down. Laurie Lind [00:13:16]: So as you guys work with your team at Entrust on developing curriculum, and this is various courses aimed at further equipping leaders to lead well in the local church, sometimes overseas, but even more and more for leaders here in North America. How do you know having to shift, how you put these courses together and what techniques or processes do you use? What's changing or what might change going forward? Tricia Lambert [00:13:48]: So those are definitely questions we're asking as a team of how we make those shifts and make it more accessible to younger readers. So one of the outcomes of the biblical literacy being down is we're actually developing a course on developing a biblical worldview because those are ideas that are not commonplace anymore, they're not in the culture itself. So that was a response that we're seeing. Our leaders don't have the foundation that they used to have. So that's an attempt to help shore that up. So that'll be something that will be available in a year or so for people to use. I think some of it is keeping in mind the culture that these generations are in. So things like broken families, gender confusion, the shorter attention spans, less biblically literate, those are all things that are not points that we're going to directly address in our curriculum. But that's the Milwaukee that we're in and so we have to keep those in mind as we write. One thing that's true about our curriculum is it's not just the words on the page. Our trainings are a whole experience as well. And so some of those things are addressed more through the experience of a training as you go through the material just as much as the written curriculum that they're reading. So relationally interest is very relationally oriented and I think that we could really capitalize on that because a lot of these younger generations are used to having significant relationships through media and it's a new concept for them to have that face to face, know and interface. So that would be one way. So I'm going to let Jeff speak a little bit. Jeff Hurtak [00:15:48]: Yeah, I think we've had the conversation. We're if we build a curriculum towards one generation, two generations, we're going to have to revise it every two years. At the end of the day, it's an undoable task. But what we can do is look at the general, right? We know that the generations are getting more relational, their attention spans are getting smaller. That's not going to change all of a sudden. There's not going to be a jump in attention span. That'd be great, right? Like, oh, we'll go from 8 seconds to two minutes. We're in the seconds now. It's not going to change. I think we've focused even on our latest edits, and I'm newer, so at the end of the day, I have limited knowledge. Right. But we focused on maybe like, listing some things more than just writing paragraphs about it, seeing what content is actually needed. Because like we said, the later generations, they focus on what's needed, not I don't want us to use that word, so I'm not going to. Laurie Lind [00:16:54]: You were going to say fluff, right? Jeff Hurtak [00:16:56]: I was. That's not a fair statement. That's my millennial coming out. The extra explanation. I think Entrust is ahead of the curve because of the natural relationship that we bring in our trainings. Right. There's just a natural ability to make it relational, which the next generations are all about. And I think Tricia alluded to this. It is a different relationship, though. So we haven't developed videos and all these types of things for the curriculum or anything of that nature. And graphics changing things of that nature. Tricia Lambert [00:17:40]: Yeah, we've kicked around the idea of what pieces of our curriculum can we turn into, like videos. You're talking like 1 minute videos. They're not long. That can convey or just reinforce what you're doing. Maybe it is in the curriculum, but you have some options so that our younger generations can go they like videos, they like that media. So we haven't done much on that front yet, but we've talked about it. How do we explain things using short little videos, I think, too, and this really fits in with our adult education methods, is the desire of these younger generations. They pursue their passions, that what they believe and think are the things that they're interested and curious about. And as we use our adult education methods in our trainings, we're going to be able to capitalize on that. And I think it begins to tailor each group to itself and to the people in the group. That is a value of interest. As we write lesson plans, like, I might have taught lesson three of a certain curriculum ten times already, but as I come to that new group, I rewrite it with those particular people in mind. And so that's a value or a practice that entrust has that will become more and more important as we're working with younger generations. The gospel doesn't change, but how we deliver the gospel and the images that we use to convey it, all of that can vary. It's going to vary culture to culture, and it's going to vary group to group generationally. Jeff Hurtak [00:19:20]: I think that's the benefit of writing curriculum based out of the Bible. The Bible doesn't change. And so we're able to convey truth in different ways, contextualize it right it's one of our core values. Laurie Lind [00:19:32]: Well, I don't think we've solved all the problems, but we've definitely defined some of them and touched on some good things to keep in mind. And so I'm really grateful. Thank you both for your insights, and let's keep this dialogue going. Maybe we'll revisit this in a few months when all the generations will have changed already, or a year or yeah, thank you both, really. Thank you, Tricia. Thank you, Jeff. It's been great to just hear you. Todd Randall [00:20:00]: So what generation are you a part of? Whether you're a boomer or a Gen Z’er or somewhere in between, we trust this two-part series about generations and their spiritual needs has been helpful. Share this podcast with others from your generation, and maybe from a different generation. It could lead to some meaningful dialogue. Also, we'd appreciate your subscribing to Entrust Equipping Leaders, writing a review and sharing it widely with others like you. See you next time here on Entrust Equipping Leaders.
Transcript
Todd Randall [00:00:04]: Welcome to a fascinating new episode of Entrust Equipping Leaders. Today, we're talking about generations from baby boomers to millennials to generations X, Y, Z, even Alpha. Host Laurie Lind launches the discussion by asking guests Tricia Lambert and Jeff Hurtak to introduce each other. Laurie Lind [00:00:28]: Trisha, would you introduce Jeff to us and then, Jeff, maybe you could introduce Tricia. Tricia Lambert [00:00:33]: So Jeff is now on our curriculum team. He came about a year ago. He just finished going to seminary, he and his wife, she went as well. And so they have a strong interest in education and especially classical education. So that's a rich thing that Jeff brings to our team. He lives in Lubbock, Texas. He likes fish, he has a lot of fish tanks at his house. So there's Jeff. Jeff Hurtak [00:01:03]: Tricia is our supervisor on the curriculum team. She also serves an Equipping Women and a couple other hats, kind of a lot of hats. But she leads our team well, and, she is from Texas, but she lives in Colorado Springs now. And so, we have that in common. She also was a classical school teacher so we've talked about that a couple times. So she just leads us well and is committed to the values of Entrust. Laurie Lind [00:01:32]: And you've both mentioned something about classical education or classical school teachers. So just briefly, what do we mean by that? Jeff Hurtak [00:01:44]: It's just a it's a teaching pedagogy, that follows just a little bit different structure than one that is normal in America, a lot of it's dealt with, just rote memorization to understanding the why to high school being more about being able to talk about and dialectically talk about different subjects. So students typically are leaving classical education with the ability to not only know information but think about information. And so it's just something that me and my wife are very interested in. So we tend to cling to those types of education opportunities. Laurie Lind [00:02:23]: So then in Entrust, we're a little bit different. I guess we would we call ourselves classical educators or non classical? Jeff Hurtak [00:02:32]: I think I think classical education is more at the, like, the student, like, the young student level. So it goes from a to high school. There's some college, classical education colleges, but I think what we have in common with classical education at Entrust is our ability to we call it in in classical education called Socratic method, the ability to ask questions, which if we take any of our courses, you understand that we're all about question asking and allowing the student to drive education in in that in that way. I mean, with class of education, there there's, changes in age. Right? So every age is teaching different, but we still have those same patterns of Socratic method, the ability for the student to lead the conversation without necessarily having a teacher stand up in front of them in lecture for a while. Laurie Lind [00:03:23]: Okay. Good to know that and as you say, it changes with age, and we are getting into age a little bit as we talk about generations who are all adults but vastly different. I know I'm pretty sure I'm one of the I'm not even young, but I'm one of the youngest of the baby boomers. If that generation is defined as born between 1946 and 1964, then, yes, I'm right at the end of that 8 year. So I'm a I'm a boomer. May I ask you both which generation you land in. Tricia Lambert [00:04:01]: So I would also be a boomer. Laurie Lind [00:04:03]: k. Jeff Hurtak [00:04:04]: And I fall at the younger end of Millennial. Laurie Lind [00:04:08]: Okay. So baby boomer is 46 to 64. What are the rest of the delineations of all these next categories? Jeff Hurtak [00:04:17]: Gen X is gonna be after boomer and then millennial and then Gen Z and then Gen Alpha, which is new. Tricia Lambert [00:04:27]: The Gen X is typically said to be between 1965 and 1980. And then the millennials would pick up in 81 and go through 96. And Z would be around 97 to 2012. And then our Gen Alphas, our youngest kids right now, and they're from 2013 to 2025. So they are almost all here, but they're still being born. Laurie Lind [00:04:58]: Some of them aren't even here yet as we speak in 2023. Yeah. And we'll have a new category after that yet again. Tricia Lambert [00:05:05]: It will be Beta. They're just kinda going through the Greek alphabet. So they have those generations defined and also Gamma would be the following that. The years can shift a little bit because there's cultural influences that kind of give us some guidelines on when these generations take place. Laurie Lind [00:05:22]: It is interesting it seems as though the generations are getting, narrower in terms of the year span. Right? Yes. 46 to 64 was a few decades, but it's less and less time for each generation now. Tricia Lambert [00:05:37]: Yeah. Laurie Lind [00:05:37]: How do then, like, say millennials gen x and z and who you mentioned, how do they all learn, or what are the differences in how they learn? Tricia Lambert [00:05:47]: I'll let Jeff speak first since he is a millennial, then I'll tell him who he is. Jeff Hurtak [00:05:54]: Yeah. when you think about, just like gen like, millennials gen z, we're seeing a shift of really a shift in, like, what is the purpose behind the learning? Right? It's no longer and it and not that this is all that was happening with Boomer and before that, we do see a shift of, like, I'm gonna learn what I need to learn to do what I need to do. Right? So, That's why we see some students a lot of times not lean towards certain subjects. They lean towards just the ones that they think will practically work for them. we see this a lot in millennials. that's why we have a lot of, like, trade school shifts, things of that nature, students leaving traditional education to seek other types of education, with millennials and Gen Z's just that exacerbated, right? They are, what we call the king of the side hustle. Right? They're they want to find 10 different ways to do what they need to do. and that's their focus. So they no longer need traditional education to do it. Right? and so, yeah, I would say, like, the main difference between Boomers and those younger generations X is a little differ difficult because, they don't get much, they they're between 2 very strong generations. And so they're a little quieter. and so typically, as soon as we started shifting things towards Gen X, millennials hit, and everything changed. they say millennials main motivation safety most of the time. And so trying to be safe, not safe, but, like, trying just to be okay. And so we're just trying to figure out, what we need to learn, right, and what will actually impact us. So do I need to take certain things that I won't ever use, or should I just take things that I know I will use? that's my understanding interpretation. Right? everybody has a different interpretation of the generations just because the millennials hall might have same motivation, we all show that motivation in different ways. Tricia Lambert [00:07:57]: Right. It's really hard to paint a broad brushstroke that encaptures everybody in any generation. So I think you got major influence on that shift between how we used to learn what I was calling traditional and newer generations is the philosophical difference now, we're in a postmodern age. And so I think that has played a key role in some of the reasons why there's been this cultural shift. Laurie Lind [00:08:26]: And then when we think about these generations and we, again, we don't stereotype and everybody's different and maybe fuzzy border lines. but do you think these generational qualities and characteristics transfer across cultures too. Tricia Lambert [00:08:44]: So we, have a gal on our curriculum team who was if I get this right, born in Uganda, or was she born in Kenya? Jeff Hurtak [00:08:52]: She was born in Kenya, but married. Tricia Lambert [00:08:56]: Okay. So she's really familiar with those 2 particular cultures. And we asked her that question because she has children who are Gen Z. She has 1 in Gen Z and 1 in Gen alpha. and what was she experiencing both in her own children, but also in those cultures that she's familiar with. And she said that where they're dealing a lot with the same issues. And I think that's because we have such a global culture now. So I think the impact is a little less, on them. But we've she's seen at least a lot of the same things that we're struggling with here, that they are that young people are struggling with in her cultures as well. Jeff Hurtak [00:09:35]: Really, we see the world changing in 2008. We start seeing first iPhone come out. We start seeing the first global, you know, I think Facebook is coming out around that time. major elections were happening during that time. I it was just a a changing world in 2008. And from that point, we've came a global. It's the same way that TV changed the Vietnam war. Right? Like, it changes everything when you see everything at an instant. And so you're probably not seeing as much change in countries where it's closed, or where they're filtered, or censored. Right? But in the countries where we're not having as much censorship, probably gonna see the same type of thing that we're seeing in America with the generations. I do wanna make the comment that, you know, our typically, our generational the, you know, the way we view generations is usually before they're adults. Right? so, the immature millennial versus the mature millennial. They we see a big shift in millennials once they become adults. They learn responsibility. They learn these types of things. And so I think first off, I think we have to remember that, that we're gonna see a shift in Gen Z and it's gonna come within the next like, 3, 4 years because a lot of them are entering the workforce now. and, a majority of the workforce will be millennial in just a couple years, if not all of it. You know? and so, all of it being loosely turned that, you know, never percent. But. So I did wanna make that comment before we think about it, you know, we shouldn't be fearful of millennials being in leadership positions because of the way we solve them as kits. Right? Cause we had a lot of issues as millennials as kits. We, you know, we also went through a lot. But, Yeah. So that's the way I try to think about it with leadership. I think we have to remember that they're different than they were when we came up with these categories. And that will help us respect, leadership that are that is younger more, understand that they're maturing just like we, you know, and I'm saying we, but I'm one of them. Right? That's maturing still. because we don't mature until, like, 35. Right? No. so I'm making a joke. Laurie Lind [00:11:57]: I don't suppose I don't think I've matured yet. I'm still hoping it's. Jeff Hurtak [00:12:04]: Yeah. Yeah. Right. But, yeah, so I think just to start off, like, remembering that they're not who they were when we gave them these categories of generations. Like, they're different, and they've grown into them. Tricia Lambert [00:12:17]: We did a little exercise at our team meetings where we pulled in Gen Alpha slang words and to see who could figure out what they meant. So that was fun. Laurie Lind [00:12:28]: What were a few of those just for fun? Tricia Lambert [00:12:30]: SUS, what's is it what SUS? Is that how you say it? Jeff Hurtak [00:12:36]: Yeah. It’s like suspect. Like, that that's I don't there's something wrong with that. So, like, there's something going on there. Okay. Tricia Lambert [00:12:46]: I'd have to look at my notes. I don't really remember. Jeff Hurtak [00:12:51]: Yeah. There is like you know, sleigh, which is just like you're killing it there's couple that have changed. right? Like, so something I would have said means something completely different now. Laurie Lind [00:13:04]: Is Groovy still in? Tricia Lambert [00:13:09]: Only because I still say it, but, no, it is not in. Laurie Lind [00:13:13]: We're gonna start and I mean, all of our fashions are back in style. We had to bring all of our slang back. Jeff Hurtak [00:13:18]: I think it will, actually. I think you'd be surprised that it'll come back maybe for a month maybe for, you know, so -- Yeah. -- it can be a word that becomes important for just a couple months, and then it's gone. So – Tricia Lambert [00:13:31]: No cap. Jeff Hurtak [00:13:33]: No cap. That's the other one. Yeah. Laurie Lind [00:13:35]: What does that mean? Jeff Hurtak [00:13:36]: That's like, like, I'm not lying that that's if you say no cap, you cannot tell a lie. You have to say the absolute truth. It's like a sacred word. so Yeah. So if a kid ever tells you that, like, they're probably telling you the truth. Does that mean they are because their sinners probably not all of that. But yeah. But, yeah. Tricia Lambert [00:13:59]: BOP is BOP is another one. Laurie Lind [00:14:01]: And what's that? Tricia Lambert [00:14:02]: A really good song. Laurie Lind [00:14:03]: I'm learning a lot right now. Yeah. Tricia Lambert [00:14:10]: Someone might flex. Jeff Hurtak [00:14:12]: Flex. Yeah. That's been a that's been popular for a couple generations. Laurie Lind [00:14:17]: Oh, good heavens. What does it mean? I still don't know. Jeff Hurtak [00:14:19]: Like you're showing off. It's like, you're showing off. So you're flexing. Laurie Lind [00:14:24]: Okay. Okay. Tricia Lambert [00:14:26]: Another one they might say is mood. Laurie Lind [00:14:29]: Yeah. How do you spell that? Tricia Lambert [00:14:32]: m o o d, m o o d, Laurie Lind [00:14:32]: mood, and what does it mean now? Tricia Lambert [00:14:36]: the same here that they've they're sharing your perspective or what you wanna do, that kind of thing. Laurie Lind [00:14:45]: Okay. Well, there we go. We're learning. There you go. Yeah. Hopefully, everybody. Right? So let's talk about that. Older and younger, again, all of us, whether we work for Entrust. But as Christians, we do want to be, as Paul told Timothy and second Timothy 2:2, the things you've learned from me entrust to faithful men and women, who will teach others also. The process of discipling, equipping next generations. I mean, that's in the old teach your children as you go along the way, how can we just be conscious as whatever generation we are of what are good things to keep in mind for really investing well in a generation younger or 1 or 2 or 3 generations younger, especially as followers of Jesus. Jeff Hurtak [00:15:31]: I mean, relationship is the biggest one. they don't I I know it's like a phrase we use a lot. Like, they don't they don't care about what you have to send so they know how much you care type thing, but really, if you don't have a relationship with them, they don't care about what you have to say. So be genuine, be sincere, like, really -- -- and be available Right? Be willing to mentor. they love they actually do love mentors, but it has to be somebody of value to them. And so if you're not a value to them, it what you have to say won't really stick, you know, And I think one thing that we have to keep in mind is that as the generations go, they get more spiritually open. So Gen Z is the most spiritually open generation there has ever been. The only issue is spiritually open means they're open to everything. right? And so anything that makes their faith better more, you know, more effective is good. So if that means that they wanna pull in things from Buddhism, into their Christianity, they will do so. and so you have to be careful with, you just have to be available to tell them what the truth is. but you have to care first and really generally care, not just care for their soul, right, not just so you can win their soul type thing, but, so that you just care about them, and spend time with them. Tricia Lambert [00:16:54]: One of the things that we've, noticed in equipping women is in mentorship, They do really like mentorship, but it's a little more specified. So maybe they come to you with questions about family and children. but they might go to someone else on an issue of faith. And so, I think as older generations, we need to be willing to adapt to that. Entrust because they're not asking us questions in that one arena, doesn't mean they don't appreciate the area they are asking us questions about. So that fluidity is something I think we have to become a little more used to really come alongside the younger generations. Laurie Lind [00:17:36]: And is it good to, as a quote, older person approach someone who's younger who we already have some relationship with and say, hey, Let's start getting together, or is it better to wait for the younger one to come to you and say, hey. I wanna learn from you. Jeff Hurtak [00:17:54]: I think it's a difficult question. right? I think each kid is gonna be different with that. like, some of my students, I say, hey. Let's go out to coffee. Right? And they can say, I don't have time for that. And they'll let me know, or If I know that they're canceling on me, they're probably not interested. because if they're willing to go to another commitment over your their commitment to you, that means that's more valuable. to none. And then that's where you just gotta suck up the pride a little bit and she's like, this is just not where the lord has in in that relationship. so you can do it that way. I think if a student comes up to you, that definitely jump on that opportunity, right, because that doesn't happen often. Yeah. I mean, I asked my student this yesterday. I was actually lunch is one of them. And I said, what could I do better? And he says, I think you could crack more jokes with us at the beginning of the school year. Like, you'll be a little bit more lenient. you know, which as a teacher, you're told to not be lenient the 1st couple weeks. You have to be strong. But to them, they're like, if you're more lenient with us, we're gonna like you a lot more. You know? So you're just kinda like, what what's going on here? You know? And so, you know, something's so simple. just cracking some jokes with us. Like, even though it's a serious moment of teaching, like, crack some jokes with us, you know, feel you know, feel more comfortable with us, Laurie Lind [00:19:14]: and we'll feel more comfortable with you. So -- And I like what you said, what you did. Also, you showed humility and saying, hey. How can I be better? How can I be a better friend or help or mentor to you? That's a humility and an excellent question maybe to ask someone who's younger than you. Jeff Hurtak [00:19:32]: Yeah. You gotta be careful. but it can it can be. Right? You don't wanna show up and start saying that to every kid because then they're like, This guy doesn't know anything. So you also wanna be careful. Tricia Lambert [00:19:44]: I think it is helpful to read about generations, and I'm not sure that I have any particular book that comes to mind, probably also articles are a good source. But So you need to read to understand the generations at the same time, not holding any given person to those characteristics, right, because we're all individuals. But it does help to understand the general things about them. And then you can see how that person reflects those and doesn't reflect them. I think also we need to understand truth well and be able to articulate what is truth and why it's important. because there has been that shift in, everyone has their own truth now. And why is that not a biblical idea? And what does scripture have to say in relation to that. So if we want to be able to influence younger generations, we've gotta be able to talk around that and under stand what they're dealing with, why they might think that. You know, I could I could just say, you know, kind of wave my hand out of them and say, you guys are hopeless. or I can come alongside of them and begin to challenge their understanding. And one thing they will look for is am I living out the truth I proclaim? Mhmm. And that's a real important aspect, which is good. The accountability for me is that that's a great thing, right, to be living out what I say I believe. Jeff Hurtak [00:21:08]: I think I think the generations today have gotten better at reading people and reading if you're if you're saying a bunch of they don't care about the it's not that they don't care about truth. It's that they don't care about truth if you're not living that truth out. So if we're not living correctly, they're not gonna care about what we have to say, or if we're not living in conjunction with it. And I think this is gonna be a lot tougher for American believers, because we have so many liberties in America already, we don't quite understand the depth of some of the that we talk about. I think, yeah, I I'll Entrust reiterate what Tricia said. like, we know general things about generations. and we can't attribute those to every one of them. But what we can focus on is motivation. and so how can we, contextualize and bring truth to their motivation. right? And so that could be safety. That could be, the world. And we just have to think about the motivations behind what they do, because each one's a a mature Christian millennials gonna be a lot different than a non mature non christian millennial or even a mature non christian millennial. So it just everything changes, depending on what their world view is, all those things. Tricia Lambert [00:22:32]: And I think speaking to their values, culture, I mean, each generation has some cultural values that they hold to. and understanding what those are and learning how to, articulate how the gospel speaks to those. and how the gospel is the answer to the things that they're longing for. Laurie Lind [00:22:47]: And we're gonna find those values by looking around online, reading articles, reading books, about these different generational groups. Talking to them. Right. Talk to them. Listen to them. Jeff Hurtak [00:22:59]: I would even if you're not interested in it, just let it go. Like, move on to somebody else to, you know, somebody will be so if it's something you're not interested in, that you're not really you don't really care about, and it's something that they care about, they're gonna know that you don't really care about it, even if you pretend to engage in You know? and so that's the hard part is, you have to be genuine in your interest as well because then it's just you faking it until you get them to do what you want them to do. It's to them, it's manipulation. It's not it isn't. but to them, it could be that way. And so you gotta be you have to be genuine. Tricia Lambert [00:23:45]: One idea that I'm thinking about is this whole idea of influencers. You know, that's a big cultural change for us is to see you know, you can spend hours on TikTok or, even Facebook, they come up now on Facebook of people that are, you know, the 20 best products to buy at Amazon or, you know, how to dress, you know, there'll be someone on that. And it's like, I wonder what's in there that we could tap into as we look at these other generations because the influencer idea has taken root. Right? So I don't know. I mean, I've just started thinking about that, so I don't have any answers yet. I'll be sending an email to Jeff to think about this. How can we do this, Jeff? Laurie Lind [00:24:33]: Like, seeking to position Entrust as an influencer on like Christian practices or something along those lines or? Tricia Lambert [00:24:42]: I don't know that I'm seeking to put us in that position, but it is true that we may have something to say. And how do we say it? You know, we can perhaps I don't know. It's a little mysterious at this point exactly how we'd use it. I think if we tried to put Entrust in that role, that would be an authentic. But I do think there's some aspects of that that is worth thinking about. Jeff will help me. Jeff Hurtak [00:25:14]: We're not in social media, I mean, so we might not be the right people. But -- Laurie Lind [00:25:19]: There's a question, though, too. So We think these younger generations, all they do is just live in social media, but I know more and more people like you, Jeff, who say, oh, no way. I don't even I don't go there. I'm not on Instagram. I'm not on Twitter. I'm not on TikTok. I mean, so is that a trend as well away from social media to some extent? Jeff Hurtak [00:25:39]: I think it might just be personal views. It's just personal. Like, we just don't enjoy it. and we have an inclination to be absorbed by it. And so it's part of our, I think, in our, cycle maturity, maybe, that we just are trying to limit that time, but I'm a big YouTube person. So I'm working on limiting myself on YouTube right now. You know? So it's kinda like I'm I'm not involved in the Facebook that but I am involved on YouTube a lot. So it's just kinda learning those types of things you have different inclinations. I don't enjoy being a product. I'm guessing you're not the only one in your generation. Yeah. I I think there's more awareness right now. So I think a lot more people are leaving social media for that, but but gen zers are not. Tricia Lambert [00:26:30]: Well, it's interesting even as we look at millennials. So millennials actually, this is just with technology. And for some reason, this fascinates me. Millennials did use DVDs. You know, that's how they got their movies. they had dial up internet, you know, so you couldn't be on the phone and the computer at the same time. Their first phones were flip phones. So, you know, they did phone calls. They did texting, but they didn't have all the internet access. You know, and so but they still are very savvy and can do intuitively get around digital devices. Right? but we call them, or the gen z or though, their devices were all handheld. They were mobile. You know, so I have some gen z, like, they don't own computers, per se. Like a personal computer, like I do, they have It's all on their phone, and they do everything on their phone. And, they're more what we call mobile natives. You know, so you've kind of seen a shift even in the generations these 3 younger generations of how they use technology and what they're familiar with. And then alpha have never they don't know a world without internet, without a smartphone. So those are the are kids, so yet to be discovered what that looks like as adults for them. But, there's been a lot of shifting, even in those 3 younger generations of how they use technology and what they're just automatically wired to do. Todd Randall [00:27:54]: You've been listening to a dialogue Jeff Hurtak, Tricia Lambert, and Laurie Lind about generations, each with its own characteristics and strengths and needs. If you haven't subscribed to this podcast yet, do that today so you don't miss the next episode when Tricia and Jeff get into the spiritual status of various generations. How might we all be more informed, more intentional, and more prepared to serve upcoming generations their spiritual needs well. Get ideas next time on Entrust Equipping Leaders.
Helpful link Original video:https://youtu.be/l420TUDQo4k
Entrust https://www.entrust4.org
Transcript
Todd Randall [00:00:04]: Hello, friends. Welcome back again to Entrust Equipping Leaders. As you listen to this podcast, as you explore our website, you might find yourself wondering, what exactly is it that Entrust does, or why does Entrust's work sound so different when described by different people. Those are definitely valid questions. Maybe today's short, winsome message from Entrust President Emeritus David Goodman will help. In the following audio clip, you'll hear Dr Goodman describe Entrust using the image of small wooden stool. This audio is taken from a video. So as you listen, imagine Dr Goodman, who is well over six feet tall, talking about a very small three-legged stool.
Dr David Goodman [00:00:56]: Well, obviously, one size does not fit all. When I was a child, this stool fit just fine growing up in Africa in a mud block grass hous-roofed house with my missionary parents. But here, and now, it doesn't fit at all. For Entrust, our goal is to leave behind movements of transformation wherever we go. Jesus told us that he came so that we might have life and have it more abundantly. In the fullest possible way is the way one translation says it. But what does that mean? I remember sitting in the passenger seat of a beautiful BMW, as the owner told me about all the pressure he was under. His business had struggled for several years, and he was forced to sell his six-bedroom, five-bathroom mansion and move into a modest home in a different part of town. In contrast, I visited the home of a South African mother whose husband was unfaithful to her. He contracted AIDS and then transmitted it to her before he died. Now when she could no longer hide her condition, the only person who would not scorn her as the pastor that she went to for help. Now picture yourself as a pastor sitting on a rough-hewn wooden chair in a South African slum, or a pastor sitting as the passenger of a BMW. Even though in both situations, you're trying to explain how to experience the abundant life Jesus came to give, you need quite a different set of tools and skills in each situation. One size does not fit all. What I love about Entrust is not so much the answers we bring as the questions we ask. Wherever Entrust goes, we want to know what sort of chair those pastors and church leaders will be sitting in. What sort of questions they will be asked. What sort of character and skill they will need to lead their people to experience transformation, the life they were created for, abundant life. Then instead of a lecture classroom format and imparting primarily Western wisdom, we help the local church to shape a relational learning experience, to train pastors and church leaders, utilizing the most current adult educational techniques, which bear remarkable similarity to the way Jesus did his ministry 2000 years ago. Training a core group of leaders who are equipped to train others in the same way, while engaging them in a constant dialogue about how to live an abundant life in a fallen, rapidly changing world. Millions of people around the world have been introduced to Jesus but had no little or nothing of the transformed life that Jesus came to give us. And because it takes time and hard work to do it well, to do it like Jesus did it, sadly, Western missions have too often been content to lead people to embrace Christ without also showing them the abundant life and what it looks like in their context, as Christ commanded us to do. So there's a real need for Entrust. As we partner with indigenous churches and mission groups overseas to create the tools and training necessary to equip leaders for movements of transformation, Entrust custom tailors training for movements of transformation. So that it fits just right no matter where you sit.
Todd Randall [00:04:53]: One size does not fit all. Just as Dr Goodman says, different settings call for different approaches. That's why Entrust leadership training looks vastly different in Slovakia than in, say, the Philippines. You'll find Entrust people teaching courses and discipling students at brick-and-mortar seminaries. You'll find Entrust staff members discussing practical ministry skills with eager young church leaders sitting on the ground under Banyan trees in Southern Africa. You'll find Entrust connecting with men and women online from around the world in intensive training modules and collaborating with theological faculties on new curriculum development in Asia and offering refreshing pastor's camps and training gatherings in Europe. All different sizes, one unified goal. Equipping, encouraging, and multiplying leaders for multiplying churches. That's Entrust.
Join us for upcoming episodes of Entrust Equipping Leaders when you'll hear from colleagues in Slovakia, Spain, Romania, and South Africa. Please be sure to subscribe and to share our podcast. Thank you and see you next time, on Entrust Equipping Leaders.
Helpful links and resources
FRL, DDH, DBS and EWS: mentioned several times, the acronyms for Entrust Equipping Women's four core modules: Facilitating Relational Learning, Developing a Discerning Heart, Discovery Bible Study and Equipping Women to Serve.
Entrust https://www.entrust4.orgTranscriptTodd Randall [00:00:04]: Hey there. We're back with another episode of Entrust Equipping Leaders. Today, we'll pick up the conversation between Lasma Asme in Latvia and Mo Blackmon in Canada. About the nationwide women's ministry training God has helped them launch in Latvia and how you can be a part of it.
Laurie Lind [00:00:24]: Let's have another story. think I'm ready for story time again. And I think of Mo, you had mentioned something to me about a story about something that happened for you with the Entrust women's ministry training. Tell us all about that one.
Mo Blackmon [00:00:45]: That was in 2018, so we had it was the fifth year of offering our training, and it was the very first time that we were offering it in Latvian language. So I had the privilege of working together with 2 other Latvian facilitators and we are offering the facilitated training, the first module. And the very first night, as we were praying together the 3 of us and preparing our room to start the training the next morning with 9 women. I did something that I I really stepped on the toes of one of my colleagues and really quite deeply offended her but I didn't realize it at the time. So after preparing the room, we all went home. and she had a terrible night. Just thinking about what had happened and, you know, Satan is very active in these trainings where God is super active. And so he got in there twisting things and speaking lies and Anyways, so the next day, I'm oblivious to all this, and we do the go through the whole training day, and it just felt hard. It felt stilted, and it really wasn't flowing. I didn't know why. And then at the very end of that day, the lady women went home, and we 3 facilitators sat down to debrief the day as we do. You know, what went well, what might we do differently, and that was the opportunity for my colleague to say, you know, I was really hurt by what you did there, and she shared. And, oh, man, I was just cut to the core. I had no idea, but you know, she was right. I had really been unthoughtful and so I I apologized and There's nothing to defend in my actions, and she forgave me. still gets me today. She really forgave me from the heart then and there, and We're able to cry a little bit and hug each other and pray. And the next day, it was a totally different world in our little room. It was wonderful. And, you know, that was 2018. I have a a good relationship with her, and the forgiveness was real. And the acknowledgment of, you know, yeah, just what I had done unintentionally, but still, you know, stepped on her, and she realized that it triggered a lie, a deeper lie in her own life. got triggered by that, and we talk about all those things in the second module. And so we were both we became aware of what was going on, and you know, my sin was unintentional, but still happened. And yeah. So that was a powerful thing. And I I thought at the very beginning, man, that could have derailed things in a significant way because she was an influential leader really in in Latvia and for the training and, you know, if that offense wasn't dealt with, It could have affected things quite badly. But God was absolutely faithful to take us through that.
Laurie Lind [00:04:11]: Praise God. I love the the the fact that you both … There was Yes, there was hurt and there was misunderstanding, but there was such honesty and such humility on both sides to acknowledge and to confess and to forgive. And -- Yeah. -- women don't always do those things terribly well.
Mo Blackmon [00:04:35]: Yeah. And that really is part of the culture of this training, which I love. Yeah. the humility, and, you know, it's a training that offers very practical skills, biblical skills, but also godly character. and that really is crucial and matters and is part of what we want to see happen.
Laurie Lind [00:05:00]: I want to go back to a question for you, Mo. You had this vision to bring this this training to Latvia, as we've said. As time has gone on, How if at all, how has your vision changed?
Mo Blackmon [00:05:13]: I think one thing that that I've noticed that in the beginning, it was those of us within Entrust who work full time in that organization coming. And, you know, we're their full time. So we've got time to give, and we would meet afterwards and have meals together and spend time, a lot of time following up and deep briefing. And, you know, we were there. We were ready to do very, very long days, and but the women that we were training and who eventually have become the facilitators and leaders of it, they're often in other full time work in doing this as volunteer. And so one way that it the training has been contextualized and changed in in a way it needed to was trimming it down a little bit time wise. You know, we used to do this long slideshow. We took that out. We used to do we used to have killing prayer, right, Lasma?
Laurie Lind [00:06:18]: What?
Mo Blackmon [00:06:19]: A very long time of laying hands on women in in a hot stuffy room and praying and praying and praying until we're just falling down. So we we've taken that out and, you know, made it a little more effective. And so yeah. So things have had change to accommodate the needs of women who are working full time or taking care of children at home full time. And any things to be done a little bit quicker, need to catch public transit to go back home to their cities and so on. That's one way. Another way is the Fall training worked for a lot of us. but wasn't always the best for our Latvian sisters. And so now the training is change to spring, and I don't know, Lasma, maybe you can say more about that.
Lasma Asme [00:07:16]: Yeah. For Latvians, summer is very meaningful season because then you have sun and warm time and many camps and times with friends and families … going swimming. So in that season was very hard to study, to learn, to answer emails and all things what is connected with preparing to training. So in very many times, the woman started to study just in August or September that training was in October. So we thought that easier for preparing is to prepare in winter, in dark evenings, and in Latvia, we have dark in winter starts at 4 o'clock or 5 o'clock. Yes. And then so we changed to from fall to spring. Yeah.
Mo Blackmon [00:08:20]: Another thing that may be changed in my original thoughts way back when was, you know, I wondered if the training might spread to neighboring countries, like Lithuania or Estonia. In the early days, I was in contact with people I knew in Lithuania, and we almost had some people coming. It never worked out and then later on, maybe some people in Estonia, but that didn't work out. So I realized, you know, those dreams have to be held with open hands and before the Lord and to see how he wants to to move it and change it and grow it. And You know, we wondered if maybe some of the Latvian trainers who speak Russian, maybe they could help our colleagues in Georgia or the Ukraine. Maybe it would move into Russian speakers within Latvia. So, yeah, all those were dreams that that haven't happened yet.
Laurie Lind [00:09:23]: We will talk about what is next, what are the bigger dreams, but where would you say the training is now? How many people have been through this training in Latvia? I understand everything is done in the Latvian language now. You don't do anything in English anymore. So English speakers have been worked out of a job apparently. What is the status of it all right now in Latvia?
Lasma Asme [00:09:49]: For now we have 15 graduates who graduated all courses in those 9 years. Yeah. This would be the 10th year for Latvian. But I think some 65 women learned almost 1 year, like, in like FRL or 2 courses or 3 courses. Yes. Next year, we would love to offer 4 courses, and it would be the first time in our history. Entrust's history in Latvia. We never have so much courses, but we really pray and hope that God will provide that. And now we have yes. We have translated all courses, but we are really are hoping to revise the FRL. And, yeah, it has been a sometime, yeah, long time from the first translation. So we have about that. And the part of our work right now is to involve the graduates and process that they are co-facilitating in our trainings. And that also is very beautiful when you are really seeing the fruits of this work and how God blessed them. And, yeah, and to see that they are really really happy to be there and involve in that ministry. And so that is very beautiful. Yeah.
Laurie Lind [00:11:46]: Lasma also, tell us more about your journey. I mean, you went to that 1st training in 2014 where you've never heard the word facilitation before and so forth. You had that thought about woman to woman. And then you went through quite a process and … well, you’re the director of the whole thing for the whole country I think. tell us about that. Where and how did you proceed through and land where you are today?
Lasma Asme [00:12:06]: Yes. In 2014, I took FRL. And then in 2015 DDH, in Riga. And then in next year, I needed a DBS. but we have in our marriage problems with my husband, with Rudolfs and we worked more on our marriage and we went to marriage camp, I would say, and different things. So I really realized that I can't dig in DBS, and my all thoughts and concerns are about our marriage. So I said to my beautiful wonderful facilitators and Livija that I wouldn't come. And but they came to in a fall to training, and they came to Ventspils, to me, and that was very, very nice time together that we spent one day together. There were Mo and Sherry Bohn and Trish Barrett and Corrie. So and in that day, they offered me to go in spring and to learn in Euro Hub So I took in 2017 in spring in Switzerland, I took DBS. And after year. And then in a fall, we were three girls from training, and we didn't have anything to learn in Entrust training. and then Mo offered for us the first time to co-facilitate. So it was our first experience, and I don't know how it went. I think it was terrible. I'm so sorry for those girls. who needed to enjoy. But that was our first experience before Equipping Women to Serve. Yeah. And so after that, 1st co-acilitation in 2017 in the Fall.
Lasma Asme [00:14:40]: I and both Agneses from our hub training and Laura, and also together with Mo, we finish together in Switzerland. Yeah. That all Entrust training. And in that moment already and it was in 2018, I accepted to be a hub coordinator in Latvia. So like together it started that in this spring, I went in a full time ministry. I quit my job. I was full time in full time job with kids and so and yeah. In that spring, I, yeah, quit my job. That was very big decision for me. But God's word help me. So I get answers and I knew that I need to do. So for 5 years, I'm in full time ministry, and I am, yes, hub coordinator in Latvia and very also involved in my church. Yep. So that is my way how I am going step by step.
Laurie Lind [00:15:59]: What would you add to that story, Mo?
Mo Blackmon [00:16:02]: Oh, I yeah. That was that was very special. just when we when we facilitators drove out to Ventspils to meet with Lasma, talk with her. I just remember connecting with her husband Rudolfs too and there was one fun part that I remember him saying, “Sso if my wife skips out on one training, then she can get sent to Switzerland to take it there!” So yeah, that worked out well.
Laurie Lind [00:16:41]: Like it pays to skip once in a while.
Mo Blackmon [00:16:50]: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. But I thought it was neat as well that Rudolfs could see how important his wife, Lasma, was and is to this training that that she was somebody that that we wanted to pursue, really, to continue to train and then to pass on her learning to others.
Lasma Asme [00:17:12]: And that also helps me in a way that Livija said that she had this feeling from the 1st year that I could lead this program, but she never told me, of course, that. And when I said that I wouldn't come to DBS, she said afterwards that she thought okay, our bird fly away. So this is not like and that helps me that God changed our plans and do something. And maybe if I didn't go to Switzerland and to see than Entrust like worldwide vision and how God works in so many ways in different places and different yeah, in in all world, in the way in women's lives, maybe I wouldn't start to think about opportunity to come in this ministry, and that is very good that God sometimes do more and better than in a first time we are thinking. Mo Blackmon [00:18:25]: I think that's a real theme that that I've seen as well that things didn't always go how we expected they would. They never do. Mhmm. But every change from our perspective is is a deeper opportunity for us to trust God and to know that he really is in charge. This is his training, his program, his church, his people, and we really can trust him to keep leading and to call those specific women to study and learn and eventually lead and pass it on to others and it's often different than we think and always better. Yeah. I remember that training for you was not easy either, being the only Latvian studying at the Euro hub.
Lasma Asme [00:19:13]: Oh, yeah. It was hard because English were everywhere, only English. And when you're going in lunch or dinner, you again are with different people by table. And they again, “OK, what is Latvia? What are you doing? What is history? What are you eating?” And so and so and then just you're going to room. Again, English training, English. And so DBS also are not very easy course. So when I did all speech and then facilitations and all, then there were like last lesson or something like that. And I remember that Shari Carlson was facilitating this lesson and she just asks something to write to blackboard and I'm just sitting and I don't understand anything. I don't understand what she wants from me, and all are going to this blackboard and writing something that I just started to cry. I go away, sit on a hill, cry, because this was, like, full, full, full, full, I can't anymore. I can't take anything. And, yeah, and then just Trish came to me and said, “Oh, that's okay. It's okay. Just cry out, and then let's go back.”
Laurie Lind [00:20:46]: I'm glad now we're doing it more and more in Latvian for your sisters in Christ now. Everything's in Latvian, so at least they don't have to think in a second language the whole time.
Lasma Asme [00:20:55]: Yeah. It is. And that also experienced as I facilitated DDH two courses together with Sherry Bohn in English. And next year, I'm doing that in Latvian because we have DDH and Latvian and just, “OK, I need to skip half a lesson because they took him so much in Latvian. I can't take all questions. What is that?” So -- Yeah. -- people just feel free and could say what they're actually thinking when it is in their native language. Yeah.
Laurie Lind [00:21:33]: Oh, we all need to speak in our native language when we can. So just two more questions I think from both of you. What is the vision now, that you both have? Like, going forward, you're going to try to offer all 4 of the Entrust modules at the same time. That'll be a first for Latvia, as you said. that would be in the spring of 2024? Yes. Yes. And then what else? What are your visions and your dreams for this women's training across the region?
Lasma Asme [00:22:12]: For now, there are some little steps in a way. What is our dream, and one of them is that we could equip Russian Baptist women. to establish new, like, hub training just for Russian Baptist woman where they would learn in Russian. And we have one wonderful sister from Russian Baptist Church who finished all courses. And this year, she already co-facilitated and she has this our this dream in her heart. And so we are just starting to dream how it could happen sometimes and how we can support her or yeah help her in the process or how it could be. So that is a one of dreams. Then, as Entrust training woman to woman are more in Baptist Union Baptist women, like, leadership team are making that and putting time and like, money and different things. So we are mostly offering them from Baptist women as we want to input to Baptist churches, Baptist movements. But we are open also from different churches, different congregations. And this year, from January till now, very many Lutheran womean just wrote me, I'm interested when it would be, I want to involve. And so that also was one new dream that we could make, like, were a big input in 2 pastor's wives from Lutheran church who would be willing not for their local church, but just for Lutheran women because they don't have any education like we have. They don't have conferences. They don't have retreats for women. So for them, this is really new concept. Yes. They have, like, silent retreats, but it is for every everyone for men and women. Just for women, they don't have this this kind of, yeah, trainings or ways. So that is, again, one dream yes. And, of course, we are thinking and dreaming that we would have the more facilitators, certified facilitators and that that would give us opportunity to make this training more regional, not so in Riga, in one time in a year, but maybe, yeah, it could make more regional. Like, Latvia it's very small, but almost sometimes it is hard to find a place where to stay and then be away from families or different things.
Laurie Lind [00:25:42]: Mo, what else? What’s your vision, your dream for going forward with this in that area?
Mo Blackmon [00:25:51]: Well, just to just to be in awe of my Latvian sisters and just to Pray for them and facilitate together with them when and if I'm needed there. So that's my role now.
Laurie Lind [00:26:09]: What do you hope to see happen across the region of the Baltic states or beyond?
Mo Blackmon [00:26:17]: You know, I think in these almost 10 years of this training happening, I really am learning that I can have some ideas, but God is the one putting his dreams and ideas in the hearts of his women. So I love that it's probably moving into Russian language for those women. I love that Lutherans are getting involved, and I just see God's hand in all that. And So I am I am excited to see how it progresses from here, and I do really think there's huge value if it goes regionally. I remember when my husband and I lived in a more remote part of Latvia, a lot of a lot of women were, you know, they might have one cow at home or in the winter they've got to be home to put the wood in the furnace to keep their homes warm and the water pipes from freezing. So a lot of people in that part of the country where we lived could not get away to Riga very easily. So, yeah, I guess my personal dream would be to see it go regionally so that more people further out in the countryside further away from the capital would be able to also benefit from this training for them and for their local churches. Oh, and, you know, a bigger overall dream is for men that God would provide some men to also promote and facilitate this training for other men and for coed groups and that you know, maybe one day we'd be able to offer it to the men of Latvia.
Laurie Lind [00:28:05]: Well, finally then, someone's listening right now, and they're like, well, I want in on some of this, or I have a heart for a woman investing in a woman. What is any advice you might offer to someone who's hungry for this or would love to be part of something like this or start something like this where they are. What thoughts would you like to leave people with?
Mo Blackmon [00:28:35]: Contact us and take a course. Just start. We offer it in English online, usually once a year. And Lasma mentioned the Euro Hub that happens now in Hungary and at that place in March, every year, it's offered in English language for all nationalities. And in quite a number of American cities and once in a while here in Manitoba. So check it out. We have an excellent website check it out and look for a training near you.
Lasma Asme [00:29:12]: I would say if something touched your heart, then you can know that Holy Spirit is guiding you in truth, and this is truth that what is our work that we need to equip the leaders and disciples. And I would say start small. You don't need to start big. You can start small. And also in Latvia, we start 7. We were 7. And in the next year in DDH course, we were 4. And we could thought, oh, is it okay? Or maybe no, but just being faithful with what you receive from Lord, and then you could see the very nice fruits after all, and if you would be faithful as he is. And he guides, and he provides with all things what you would need. And what we previous talked, yes. Just to rely to God's plans, not your plans and that your calculations and things which you see, oh, it would need be in this way. No. Maybe God has something different. So just start small and dream big. Yep.
Laurie Lind [00:30:34]: Well, thanks to both of you so much. How do we say thank you in Latvian? Paldies. Okay. And how do we say see you next time? [Latvian: see you next time.]
Lasma Asme [00:30:53]: -- It's a little bit difficult for you, I think.
Laurie Lind [00:30:57]: Well, For me, yes. Mo knows all these things. Well, bless you both. Thank you, Lasma. Thank you, Mo, for sharing your hearts and opening your hearts. It's been just delightful to hear you sharing all of these stories and lessons along the way.
Todd Randall [00:31:15]: Mo and Lasma, a Canadian and a Latvian combining their spiritual gifts to invest in women from across Latvia, helping each one find her voice and become a confident leader in her local church. Please make sure you've subscribed to this podcast and share it widely. We want to encourage and equip you as you in turn invest in people around you as leaders in Jesus' Kingdom. As you pray for, give to, and work with Entrust, you're part of it all. Visit our website at www.entrust4.org. That link is in your show notes. See you next time on Entrust Equipping Leaders.
What is God putting into your heart? Let Lasma's story encourage you to listen to him and follow his leading. You never know what might happen!
Links and resources
Entrust https://www.entrust4.org
Story of Sieviete Sievietei in Latvia https://www.entrust4.org/Regionstories/All-Regions/Yes/Slow-and-small-leads-to-widely-transferable
Transcript
Todd Randall [00:00:03]: So glad you're here today for Entrust Equipping Leaders, because today we're traveling to Latvia. Get ready for stories and insights from Mo Blackman and Lasma Asme, a Canadian and a Latvian with hearts bigger than the entire Atlantic Ocean.
Laurie Lind [00:00:25]: So welcome back to Entrust Equipping Leaders. I'm Laurie, and today I have some amazing guests who I love very much. Mo Blackman in Canada and Lasma Asme. Lasma, can you say your name for us, please?
Lasma Asme [00:00:42]: Lasma Asme.
Laurie Lind [00:00:45]: Okay, that's it. My Latvian is not very good, Mo’s is very good, and Lasma’s is the best … Lasma in Latvia. And we're going to hear quite a bit about your work together and your ministry in Latvia together. But beginning, it's always nice to start with a story. And I've heard, Lasma, you have quite a story about how God gave you the name for the Equipping women training in Latvia before it had even really started. Can you tell us how that all happened?
Lasma Asme [00:01:20]: Yeah, it was in 2014. I was in a church, and in that time I had three sons and little one was nine months old. And there were leader of women's ministry in Lativian Baptist Union, Livija Godina, and she was in our church, in my local church in Ventspils, and she talked in our service and I was feeding the Yanis and I didn't hear much what she told, but God some half year put in my heart two words, woman to woman. And I was home with kids, and I actually didn't know how I could serve. But I was very tired to be at home because kids were very sick all the time and I wanted to be somewhere to do something to get out of this circle, but I didn't know how. Can I be helpful and useful for God? But there were two words, woman to woman. And when Livija talked, she talked something about some training program and I didn't hear very good that part, but in end of her speech, she said this training would be something similar as woman to woman. And that was, okay, this is for me. I don't know what is it? This is for me. And so after service, I went to her and said, Livija, sorry, I didn't hear all what you said. Could you repeat something? But you said very specific two words, what is meaningful for me. And I would love to involve in this. Yes. And after some years, when I finished the training and started to minister as hub coordinator, this name, woman to woman, it is as Entrust, but in Latvia it is woman to woman. Yeah.
Laurie Lind [00:03:36]: So it's like the Lord had put that kind of a name into your heart before you ever heard Livija say that same kind of a name. And how do you say that in Latvian?
Lasma Asme: [00:03:40] Sieviete Sievietei.
Laurie Lind [00:03:44] Woman to woman? And what's the difference? The two words sound a little different. Why is that?
Lasma Asme [00:04:00]: It is one woman to another woman.
Laurie Lind [00:04:05]: How beautiful that God put that in your heart when you were a young mom with a baby and busy. I love it. Well, let's go back. Let's back up then. Somehow this happened in 2014. The two of you are colleagues and sisters in Christ now, but you grew up on two sides of an ocean. Mo in Flin Flon, Manitoba in Canada and Lasma did you grow up in Ventspils ?
Lasma Asme [00:04:38]: Yes.
Laurie Lind [00:04:39]: Let's contrast the towns you each grew up in and kind of what your early years were like, the two of you.
Mo Blackmon [00:04:46]: Yeah, I was thinking about how I grew up and how that was similar or different to Ventspils for Lasma. So I grew up in a town that was very remote, that was basically at the end of the highway, surrounded by water and rugged nature. And I thought, well, that's so interesting because in some ways Ventspils is at the end of the highway. You can't go further west in Latvia till you is surrounded by water, but, Baltic Sea compared to many lakes for me and beautiful nature. The small town I grew up in, Flin Flon, had some Christian churches, which at that time some of them were small and struggling. But around the time that I was being evangelized, there was a bit of a revival in our town. So I'm not sure how that compares with the spiritual life in Ventspils. I grew up completely outside the church. I was a latchkey kid, kind of on my own since I was about 13, taking care of myself and my dad. Just the two of us lived together as my parents’ marriage broke down at that time. So I was quite a keener. I was looking for affirmation at school and at the swimming pool. I just got involved there and I was a quiet leader and organizer in my family and school and at the swimming pool from early on. How about you, Lasma?
Laurie Lind [00:06:16]: One quick question. Mo, you said you were quite a keener. I think that might be a Canadian slang term. What does that mean?
Mo Blackmon [00:06:24]: That’s right. It is just wanting to do the best. I got good grades. I always signed up to volunteer for things. I was a teacher's pet.
Laurie Lind [00:06:36]: There we go. Sometimes Canadian English and US English have some differences. So how about Lasma, what was childhood like for you?
Lasma Asme [00:06:47]: Ventspils is yes, port city by Baltic Sea. And in 1980s it was very the place where nobody wanted to come because there were many port companies and the air was very toxic and always very like, gray. And my dad said that when I was some two years old, in summer, all leaves from trees fell down because of this air. It was not so nice place to be. But in 20 years, Ventspils become as very tidy and very oriented to families, quite silent. We have some 30,000 people in Ventspils, but it is quite silent place. A nice place to be and to live. And there are woods and river and sea and yeah, I really love my city and we have some also Christian churches and they all were in all those years, but yeah, I was also that kind of person, what Mo said, it is very similar with us. Yes. Our city is more like, how to say, place where come all from Latvia to rest. It is like resort and something like this. Yes.
Mo Blackmon [00:08:48]: I was just thinking, when you grew up there, you were growing up in the Soviet times in Ventspils.
Lasma Asme [00:08:55]: Yes, but I really don't know that. I was too small. Yeah. I was born in 1985, so I was quite small, too.
Laurie Lind [00:09:12]: Yes. So you were just a young child when the Soviet Union sort of came apart and Latvia became an independent country. You were still just maybe, what, five or six years old, maybe?
Lasma Asme [00:09:26]: Yeah, when I was six years, then Latvia went free from Soviet so I don't remember very many things from Soviet times.
Laurie Lind [00:09:38]: Sure. And Mo, you being in northern Canada, I mean, northern Manitoba, you were way far north. I think you've talked about most of your life had to do with snow and ice. Most of the fun things you did? Or even your ways of travel, is that right?
Mo Blackmon [00:09:57]: Yeah, I mean, I drove a Skidoo before I learned to drive a car. I drove a Skidoo as well as I rode my bike in the summertime and yeah, loved ice fishing and being on the lakes in the summer and winter.
Lasme Asme [00:10:12]: When I was small, we had more difference from summer to spring and autumn and winter. All was very specific. But now we have more similar all those seasons. We don't have very hot summer and very cold and long winter. What was in my childhood when you knew that snow would be three months at least? Yes. Now you never know. There can be years when snow is one week.
Laurie Lind [00:10:50]: A lot of things have changed. But let's go on to the two of you. After all this, growing up in these various far away parts from each other, when and how did you two first meet each other?
Mo Blackmon [00:11:03]: I'm pretty sure it was in 2014 at the very first training. Very first training offered in Latvia. And Lasma was there. She was a participant.
Laurie Lind [00:11:15]: So what training was that? Who was leading it and where was it held within Latvia?
Mo Blackmon [00:11:21]: Well, that was the very first training, and I was helping. I was working together with Livija, the head of the women's ministry that Lasma mentioned earlier. She and I organized it and Sherry and Corrie facilitated it.
Lasma Asme [00:11:40]: Yeah, it was in a fall in 2014, and it occurred in Latvian Baptist Union house in center of Riga.
Laurie Lind [00:11:50]: Well, how did this come about in the first place? Suddenly there's a training happening in 2014 in Riga.
Mo Blackmon [00:11:55]: That's a much longer good story. But I had been involved, I had taken Entrust training courses myself, first one back in 2002. And then many years went by and I took another course that was offered in Latvia called Walking with Christ which is an amazing discipleship training. And then I was involved with some women offering that Walking with Christ discipleship course in southeast Latvia in the place where I was living called Latgale, that part of Latvia. And I loved it. And then the Lord brought me back to Canada together with my husband. Long story short, I ended up joining Entrust as staff and seeing the depth and breadth of all the training we offered and then I started to long that we could offer this in Latvia. So in 2012 and 13 I met with Livija and the Board of Women's Ministry and cast the vision for this training of what could be possible in Latvia.
Laurie Lind [00:13:06]: Now, when you say Livija was part of the Board of Women's Ministry, what board are we talking about there?
Mo Blackmon [00:13:14]: It was the board of the Latvian Baptist church nationwide. So cast the vision for a couple of years for this training and they prayed and considered it and then said yes, let's try it and see how this works. So then we were able to offer the first training in fall of 2014 and in the beginning this training was offered in English and so that meant only those who had a pretty good working knowledge of English could take the training, resulting in generally younger women taking the training which was also a gift from God.
Laurie Lind [00:13:59]: When you had started thinking about that concept of woman to woman, you hadn't even heard about this training at all yet, is that right?
Lasma Asme [00:14:09]: No, I really didn't know and my English also wasn't very good, but I had this concept so deep in my heart that I know I needed to be here that I thought oh, I will try and when I took first time this book in my hands and, “Facilitation? What is that?” I didn't hear this word. I make exam in English and I don't know this word. Yeah, step by step but I didn't know anything about this, about Entrust or this training or modules or something like that.
Laurie Lind [00:14:54]: That word, “facilitation,” of course that's not one you learn for your state exam in English anywhere in the world. Probably that whole concept, which is very core to what Entrust is all about, facilitated learning rather than teacher student models … how did you feel about that? How did that fit into your understanding of how women or how people learn?
Lasma Asme [00:15:21]: I didn't have any spiritual education and that also was one point what I really wanted. I wanted something to learn and grow spiritually. But that concept was new for me to learn through relationships because everywhere where you were in school or some seminars or conferences always was this teacher and learner method. So it was very new for me.
Laurie Lind [00:15:57]: And new for everyone in Latvia, I would guess, right? I mean, did you think this will never work here or yes, I can see how it could work ? Or, what were your thoughts about that concept?
Lasma Asme [00:16:11]: I'm leading a small group and once we just talked about school and some teachers and I was surprised that everybody have some trauma from some teachers especially sports, music or swimming teacher something said somehow so it is very specific. Maybe not now, our new generations but in time when I learned and previous learn there were very specific way as we learned when you are nothing, you know nothing and teacher is all and they can impact you very strictly.
Mo Blackmon [00:17:04]: There was another interesting hesitation when I was first casting the vision for the training that the leader of women's ministry at that time, she thought it might go too slowly because we focus on training leaders. And one training module basically covers six months with all the preparation that the women do ahead of time on their own. And then we come together for six long days, and then we do a lot of follow up. And she thought, that's too slow. We need more training, more quickly. But I reminded her that this had worked well in Eastern Europe and in Russia and other parts of the world for 40 years and it really was a method that worked well to train the leaders first, who would then become more mature and healthy and able to disciple others. And so she trusted that, okay, let's try this. And it really has turned out that way in Latvia.
Laurie Lind [00:18:15]: Either of you can really speak to this. What is the religious culture of Latvia and then what is sort of the culture among women who are Christians, however you might describe those things.
Lasma Asme [00:18:28]: We have like other data, many Christians because they sometimes were baptized in Lutheran church, but really they don't have relationships with Jesus. So mostly part from those statistic datas just are numbers and not believers. But there are Lutherans and Catholic churches and Methodist church and Baptist churches. So there are Christians but the part of them also are just children baptized or people who are coming to church once in a year or twice in a year. But my circle I would say the woman who I know and that is mostly in Baptist churches but also in different congregations, they are very active, they want to involve, they want to serve, they want to do something to somewhere belong. It is also very important thing, they want to belong somewhere and to grow somewhere. But I would say mostly don't have spiritual education. I don't know is it correct words in English, but it is like very rare part something learned about God's word or spiritual things, very rare. We don't have, like, the very much Christian schools or something like that.
Laurie Lind [00:20:09]: I'm also curious if Latvian women form real trusting relationships, or is it hard for them to form such relationships? Is it a relational culture amongst the women in particular?
Mo Blackmon [00:20:22]: I guess in my experience, Latvians are a little more reserved than we would be in Canada and a lot more reserved than our American counterparts. And so it might take time, it might take years for people to trust one another enough to open up very deeply. But then when people do trust you, then the relationship can go very deep and meaningful from the heart. So that is something I really love and value about the Latvian culture, just the ability to have deep, meaningful relationships and just to go back to the training. That's one of many reasons why I feel addicted to offering this type of leadership training. Because just the way that God shows up in our midst, he allows people to open up and to trust really quickly, unusually quickly, women that meet each other for three days, after three days. And I hear this year after year in our first module that we offer, that they say, “I can't believe I'm sharing this. I can't believe I'm telling you this and trusting you when I've known you three days.” But that's the beauty of Jesus in our midst and a real humble, trusting atmosphere that develops. One other thing I've seen, both in Latvia and in Canada, in the ministry here, is that we as facilitators when we offer the courses, we try and be vulnerable and open ourselves. We're on the same level at the foot of the cross. And so we try and share very honestly about our own pains and struggles and failures and things that we're still learning. And I think that that can kind of prepare the ground for deeper sharing and that I don't need to be ashamed of the things that I don't have perfect and the things I'm really struggling with. It shows that we're here to learn and we're all here to learn and grow. And there's no shame in making mistakes. That's how we grow.
Laurie Lind [00:22:52]: And that would be different than what, Lasma, you were saying how people had these traumatic stories about teachers of music or sports, that when the teacher knows everything and assumes the student knows nothing and the teacher is the authority, that can cause some pain sometimes, whereas this approach, the leader really comes in as a co-learner. Same level. I don't have all the answers. I'm not smarter than you are. You said that there hasn't been a lot of what you called spiritual education for maybe anyone, women or men in Latvia, I don't know, but just both of you, what you were dreaming of. Lasma, you had a thought before you ever met Mo and started this training. And Mo, you had this thought of you wanted to bring this kind of training. What would you say was the need that existed that you felt was there that this vision could meet in some way?
Mo Blackmon [00:23:58]: Well, one thing that I heard again and again both in Latvia when I lived there about 20 years as well as everywhere else I've lived is if I'm leading a Bible study or sharing a devotional from God's word, other people might say oh, that was so good but I could never do that. And I thought, “Yes you can! Yes you can! And God made you to serve him and he gave you gifts and skills and abilities and you were made to do this not just the leaders, but everyone.” That was a real longing and hunger in me to see every woman, every person really set free to be who they are in Christ and to offer their gifts and service so other people can also get to know Jesus and grow spiritually.
Lasma Asme [00:24:59]: Yeah, I just have this gap that my heart is for woman but I didn't understand in what way is it? I'm a mom, maybe for something for moms, maybe. I'm a wife, maybe somehow support wives, new wives or yeah, I really didn't know what is this. And actually in that period I was very dry in my relationship with Jesus. I didn't read the Bible, I couldn't understand when I can do that, I don't have time. I have three kids and my husband was very busy in church and in work. I just wanted do something, but really didn't know what. And I would say that Entrust training, FRL in 2014, ,for me was again coming to Jesus, my coming back, my coming back to Jesus because I loved so much that God's word. I started to love the God's word from zero and when I prepared in summer to this training, I read Walking with Christ and I took it as my silent time. What I didn't had so long time and it was just a breath, give me more, give me more. That is so refreshing for me. So I started to think that maybe it is not support for moms, maybe it is not for wives but my starting point need to be God's word and I think that is a core thing for all Entrust models. Also in my local church the woman's serve to the Lord do very many good things like yeah, many beautiful things but in some point I felt that where is Jesus and, do we need Him? This is just good works. Yes, but it could do also without very close relationship with Jesus. So I think my very deep thirst were for him, for relationships with him. And I think that was a beautiful way how to start up some ministries and some things what we did with women, but start with in basic. Start with relationship with him, time with him, God's word and prayer, because actually, I was really afraid that that training would be some American program and what is only for them in those churches and those big churches. And that wouldn't be about God's Word, but more about some methods and something like that. And I was so happy that after first weekend I just came back and I started a Bible group with woman and just, okay, I can use all this. So nice that it is not something which you can do after four years or no, you can do that after some days and that was very nice for me.
Laurie Lind [00:28:37]: I mean, that's a good thing to mention because it's like so Mo said, Livija wanted something that went faster and Mo, you're saying actually the whole process takes several years, but you didn't need several years before you could begin to use some of what you had learned.
Lasme Asme [00:28:54]: Yeah, after this first weekend on Thursday, I just came to my small group and said, okay, I will use some things what I learned in previous weekend. So that was very encouraging.
Laurie Lind [00:29:06]: So how do we fit that together? Like you can apply something very quickly and you can use it even wherever you are at the same time. Like Mo said, the whole Entrust thinking, the process is quite long. How do we kind of put those two thoughts together in what this training system is all about?
Mo Blackmon [00:29:26]: Well, we offer four different modules that actually build on one another so that women are learning how to facilitate a small group where women can interact with God and with each other. And so those principles are ready to put into place right away, like Lasma did after a few days with her small group. And then we typically give the women take a year now and put all those principles into practice. So then they do that. And then if they're able to, if their season of life allows them to study again, then then we look at deeper issues of the heart and what it means to live a holy life and to root your identity in Jesus and looking deeper into our hearts and the life story to see where God has been active. That's the second module. And then we right away take another year to put that into practice and to sort out things in your life and see where God is and help other women figure out how to really root their identity and what the Bible says about them and on and on. The third course is how to study the Bible from the Bible. Each module offers different skills to put into practice, but continues to build on offering women practice in doing these things and facilitating a Bible study, and in learning from Scripture and talking with other women about hard things and how to sort that out and then how to build a team eventually. So all the skills are available right away, but the whole process of four different modules offered over at least four years can give just a super in-depth ,wide training in all kinds of ways to minister in your church and community.
Lasma Asme [00:31:25]: I would say that yes, you receive the skills or knowledge is what you can already to use. But it is very helpful that you have like a year or half a year when you can reflect things, try things. And look in your local church or place or whenever you are using that you can a little bit reflect on them to understand them and try maybe differently what works better? But if I receive this faster, I think I would be so full with information, with things that in one point I couldn't understand. Okay, what can I use from this? This is so rich and I want to think about more about those things. So I think the way one course in a year, it's very, very good.
Todd Randall [00:32:25]: Lasma Asme of Latvia and Mo Blackmon of Canada watching God bring together a women's equipping ministry that's spreading across Latvia and even beyond. Something only God could do. Join us next time for another story and more lessons from Lasma and Mo. And please be sure to subscribe to and share this podcast with people like you, who want to grow deep in Christ and joyfully walk with others into maturity in him.
Helpful link
Entrust https://www.entrust4.org
Transcript
[00:00:00] Todd: Thank you so much for finding Entrst Equipping Leaders again. We're back with part two of the conversation between Stephen Olson and Nik Nedelchev about life ministry, travels and adventures behind the Iron Curtain and beyond. Nik is Bulgarian, Stephen is American, and these two guys, well … you just have to listen to Nik praying before the interview to get an idea of his personality.
[00:00:31] Nik Nedelchev: Father, thank you so much for this opportunity from so many thousand miles or kilometers far away. Make the work perfectly of the technology and the people who cooperate with the technology and also give us clear mind to be precise, to be clear when we speak and when we listen. Bless Laurie to be concentrate and to be under your control. Bless Stephen. And also if they are dogs, let them not bark because I'm afraid of them. In Jesus' name. Amen.
[00:01:11] Todd: Yes, Nik is the comic of the two. Let's listen in as the two old friends pick up their story. And, stick around for wise advice from both of these seasoned men of God.
[00:01:23] Nik Nedelchev: I was former football player. But my father was a military officer before communistic time come and, uh, he disagree to cooperate or to collaborate. That's why everything which was, uh, negative on his files, also became my experience. Now, this was not that bad because I did not, uh, uh, pretend. Being football player, I have enough influence and enough opportunity. But I have terrible experience when I broke my leg and, uh, football was gone. But that time got used. This opportunity when actually I met Stephen. I was already with, uh, working in one of the best specialist in roofing, but using copper and special other materials. If you are not afraid from height, from bad temperature or good temperature. And I like it. This was well paid job, very risky job, but on the other side, I could do, I was free. For instance, to do what I want to do. At that time, after I became believer, I give my, uh, life for uh, uh, developing … and I became part of the Bible study group, which was using the materials which the father of Grace have prepared. Uh, I was ordained as a traveling preacher in the Baptist Union, early very early, less than two years after I became believer. And then, uh, later I was, uh, also assistant pastor, but never took position as a full-time pastor. I was paid pastor only eight months. And I see this as one of the biggest, uh, mistakes in my life. But I, that's enough for us.
[00:03:42] Laurie Lind: So yes, Steve? Yeah. So maybe you can talk about those early days of training. You were sort of doing this on your own, because BEE as such wasn't exactly focusing on Bulgaria yet, but you said, I'm gonna trust God for the money. You were traveling in and out. Uh, talk about that process. Did you develop a team? Did you have trouble crossing the border? What did you tell the border guards you were gonna do when you got into Bulgaria?
[00:04:09] Stephen Olson: You know, I really didn't have any issues at the border. It was, it was really pretty, pretty easygoing, unlike some other countries. And, uh, you know, I think it was, uh, you know, there was always, almost always someone traveled with me, so it wasn't that I was going by myself all the time. There was a body of, of men, sort of young men who had, I guess, 10 to 12 or so that were, I think, more in involved with this. As we began to open up different groups in different parts of the country, it just, um, things just began to spread. A lot of it was by word of mouth and, um, yeah, I just felt like it was God doing, was doing for, for the time ... That what was happening in the country that this seemed to be right.
[00:05:00] Nik Nedelchev: Now, Stephen, remember that we always show this picture from the summer of 1979. We have one week training in Velingrad. And Stephen came, and this training we consider as the first one, because we have inductive Bible study methods, and also we have Galatians and Romans. Later, E/D course [Evangelism and Discipleship] and we develop our own courses. Knowing God course using Packer's book, and Tozer’s books and several other courses which meet the need. We have great partners. Slavic Gospel Association was good partner of us and several universities have been good partner with us. Moody Bible Institute was good partner and uh, Philadelphia Biblical University. And Columbia University and several others.
[00:06:06] Laurie Lind: So in all of this you did, you're doing religious things though, under communism and, and, and Stephen is coming in and out of the country. And I know you've told me before, Nik, you don't like to talk about wild stories of danger and sneaking around just to be dramatic. But do you have any stories, just the same of, of encounters with the authorities or any trouble that you got into during those years?
[00:06:36] Nik Nedelchev: We have many. We have been involved in smuggling Bibles and there are several books about Bible smugglers and just recently somebody says, I have read a book about that and I have seen your pictures even there with your … I say, “Forget about that.” I have neighbors who are former secret police, it was years and after changes, they come and they confess, and we are friends now. Some of them passed away. They need spiritual help. But it's interesting how they, they are living 50 meters from our balcony and they never asked me, or, god close their eyes because we have times when 15, 16 people were in our living room and isolation [insulation] is very poor and the family above, the family down, the family on the left, the family on the right, all of them have been members of the communistic party. Never had any problems with those people. Give credit to the power of God and his strategy to protect. Not, we're not clever. One example. They have been, uh, checking out from 88, no, 81 till 85, every home for people who are in the leadership of religion groups. They never come to our home.
[00:08:18] Laurie Lind: These are miracles. These are absolutely amazing stories. I do think you have one story about being in a house where some kind of exciting things happened, looked like it was gonna be bad. Stephen, can you tell us about that close run in you had?
[00:08:33] Stephen Olson: Well, we, periodically we'd have, uh, sort of getaways ... go to different places in the mountains or go to different places in the country, and one of the fellows who was in the group, his dad had a place that was, uh, out in the countryside. It was a small, really a small house and two floors and um, so we were there, there were about, I don't know, eight or 10 of us, I guess. Nik, right? Something like that. Mm-hmm. Actually had a couple friends who were from Slovakia who came down also, who were part of it. And, um, and yeah, while we were meeting together, one of the evenings, uh, we heard this banging on the door outside and, uh, you know, I didn't understand what was being said. Uh, Nik understood. What, what'd he say? Uh, this is the police. You need to surrender or something like this.
[00:09:34] Nik Nedelchev: Yes. “Surrender! You have been discovered!”
[00:09:40] Stephen Olson: Yeah. Yeah. So, so anyway, but it was, uh, of course everyone in the, in the room, there was a little bit, uh, quiet or everything went very quiet. You know, some people's faces got a little white and a little nervous, but the, this, the fellow whose house, uh, one of the students who was responsible for getting us this place, he went outside to check who this was, and he was out there for I don't know how long, maybe 20 minutes, 30 minutes talking to this man. And it just turned out that he was a neighbor who was very, very drunk. And, uh, of course it, uh, we were relieved that it wasn't the police and they weren't gonna come take us all. But I think that the fact was that it, it gave a little bit of a picture for me of just sort of how people, you know, how, how they, these kind of situations would be very, uh, difficult for them and saying, you lived under this kind of thing that could happen. Most likely it's not gonna happen, but sometimes it did happen and so forth. And so therefore, people, it was, uh, it was quite an experience, one we laugh about afterwards, but it in the moment, it was something that was very serious.
[00:11:01] Laurie Lind: And I think you were describing the house that it, uh, had that been the police , there was no escape out of this house, right?
[00:11:11] Stephen Olson: there, there were bars on the windows, and it was, as I understood it. was a place that was used as a, that the Russians actually used once upon a time for a little prison to hold people in prison.
[00:11:22] Laurie Lind: Just a loud drunken neighbor giving you a big scare after all. My goodness. What about, um, all of your time together? I know you two, Stephen, you came to Bulgaria, but I think the two of you traveled sometimes together, as in, our lovely story about the Trabant and so on. What are some things you, you learned from each other, uh, spiritually, biblically? I'm sure it wasn't just one way. I'm sure you both were learning from one another.
[00:11:55] Stephen Olson: You know, I think that there were, you know, far as for myself, it was, we just enjoyed being together. I think there was just a … stories, you know, that, that would be told, whether it be from in Bulgaria for some stories that I would share from my own travels in other countries. We would share about, you know, what the needs were that were present maybe in the situation where we were going. We'd pray together, we would, there were just, uh, I think a real, honest expression of, you know, our thoughts and feelings with each other as we traveled. And, I think the thing with what I really appreciated about Nik is, um, you know, of course Nik was very open and, you know, never met a stranger, I don't think, and that kind of thing. But he, he, he was willing to, uh, go to places where, yeah, maybe they didn't always agree with us and may maybe they were from different denominations or maybe from a different situation that somehow that God was opening the door to be able to, to, to provide some additional training in the different locations. Yeah. It just was a good time to be together and we, we, uh, we enjoyed that.
[00:13:15] Laurie Lind: Nik, you had some thoughts about Stephen too, some things you observed about him as a big tall American and so forth. What did you learn from him or what was his example to you?
[00:13:28] Nik Nedelchev: Several things really with the time going. I discover first, Stephen reach me with his patience. Not to confront immediately, even he doesn't like some food or some situation or some, uh, of the cultural issues, but he never confront. Uh, we have confrontation with other people, but Stephen helped me to, to see that there is always opportunity to find a way for, even conflict, uh, solution in the time when things are not okay. Uh, one thing we discover there was time when we have several Trabant cars and the Trabbie is a small car, but most of the Americans are very long , very tall. And they want to sit, especially when they're on the front seat, to put their hand, uh, no, their feet, across it. And sometimes, uh, crossing they touch the wheel and, uh, they actually give blessing with their dirty shoes, with your hands. And, uh, Stephen never have done it. But much smaller people have done. When I try to correct them, they say, “Oh, you go and buy bigger car. This car is too small for us.” Those kind of things. This touch my heart because he was very sensitive. But also I will say he was quite good listener. Uh, what I learned. Time is short. God has given us opportunity for one segment of time to be together. Mm-hmm. And Stephen, show me and help me to use this time the best way. Not to focus on the weakness or the mistakes, but to focus on the success and opportunities. I developed course.Leadership, about how to train leaders of Christian organizations or parachurch organization, and I was using some of the things which I had learned from Stephen.
[00:16:12] Laurie Lind: In fact, Nik, you wrote a few courses, didn't you? During those years?
[00:16:18] Nik Nedelchev: I wrote several. First course was, uh, manual on stewardship and, uh, this I use with permission, some materials from American, uh, Stewardship Association and ask them permission because I was impressed how to raise funds and how to spend, to be God's faithful instrument and, uh, for our time, for our resources, our gifts, our opportunities, and blah, blah, blah. Later I asked permission because I was teaching this course in Romania. Uh, Romanians want to be translated into Romanian and they still use on the bachelor master level this course. Another thing, course, which I did was, course which help in leadership development, managing Christian organization, on the area how we can do better leaders. For something which does not belong to us, was given to us. This is a little mix between stewardship and, uh, management of Christian organization. Another little one, uh, I haven't done it, but I encourage somebody else to do, and it was about cults, cults and religion. And this is official course which we're teaching and, uh, this help because actually Bulgaria is a crossroad from east to west and south to North for many centuries. And several original religions have been started in Bulgaria.
[00:18:14] Laurie Lind: And so you were, you know, you really emerged as a leader in your country on so many levels. I mean, now you're known as a, I mean, you have many titles and you've helped start the Bible School, the Logos Bible School, I think, and you're an ambassador for Entrust and you travel around the world and European Evangelical Alliance. Stephen, did you know you were investing in such a major leader back in the day when you got started with Nik?
[00:18:45] Stephen Olson: You know, I really didn't think much about that. On the one hand, I just felt like that, um, Nik was someone who had a vision for, for young men and women to teach and yeah, we'd just come alongside each other and, and, and I think that, uh, the things that I learned in the country through, sort of, through him and the other Bulgarians. I took that with myself and went to a lot of other countries, you know, and have, have worked and it doesn't surprise me, uh, as to what, you know, where the Lord has taken Nik. You know, the interesting thing about having worked in many different countries, of course, is that, that God is, has had his people there before we ever came of course, and there, there, there were. Different people like Nik in other countries who God used in very significant and broad, broad ways. And just to be able to have a small part in their lives and for them to have a part in my life has been a true blessing for me.
[00:19:59] Nik Nedelchev: One thing is I always have been, uh, deeply impressed with the ministry of some people, different period of the development of the church and society. One of them was, Moody. Spurgeon. Sankey. And uh, Jonathan Edwards. And I can continue name those people. And I was read ingand I was learning from them. But one thing is that Billy Graham never visit Bulgaria and my mother-in-law always pray. He has been in all the countries but never in Bulgaria. But I was coordinating two of the campaign of Billy Graham, and it was in 1993. We have so-called [??] with satellites, uh, spreading the good news with satellites to all the European countries, including northern Africa. 1995. It was global from Puerto Rico to all over. That time, uh, I met two times, uh, Mr. Graham, and he wanted me to go and become part of his European team, and I said no. And, for my surprise, he, when I was in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and this was 1993, and he says, “Why you don't want to come and be 50 percent, only halftime in our group?” I said, “Because I have commitment. I have one portion of life and I'm committed to Bulgaria and the neighboring countries.” And actually the, the, the vision for Biblical Academy Logos was to teach and spread the gospel and train multiplied churches and leaders for Bulgaria region and beyond. And I told him, “I have no opportunity that I will change my mind.” This, he blessed me, he prayed for me. And when he passed away, his son, who became my, my … I was his advisor … we’re talking about ranklin, and uh, he called me and says, “Nik, you have to fly, take flight. I know that you have visa.” And I said, “Why to come?” He said, “You are in the, my father prepare his will, and you are in this group of 50. You have to be at the the funeral.” And I said, “Well, no way, because tickets are so expensive.” He said, “This is condition. We will pay your hotel, but no way to pay. You have to pay.” And I went there and when all those presidents from many countries, all those people were there, the leader of the funeral, the one who conduct the funeral was [Sammy Doda??], my good friend from Beirut, from Lebanon, and we have been working together. But the fact is God keep me in a relationship but never allow me to take any official position at that time.
[00:23:47] Laurie Lind: I mean, this is just another evidence of how God's hand was on you, Nik, from a young age. And as Stephen said, the Lord has his people in these countries and people come and find them and, and the thing about it, BEE or Entrust, a lot of people ask us, well, don't you do evangelism? You know, go tell, tell people about the Lord Jesus. Well, of course that's important. No one would deny that. But the calling of Entrust is more finding those key leadership people and pouring into them, equipping them, training them that the might go forward and do the leadership in their countries. It seems like it really played out here in, uh, Stephen identifying some key leaders in Bulgaria and you just making this friendship and, and then look how far that's gone. So what about as the two of you, um, have had your lives of ministry and growing, what is the advice you want to ass on to the next generation of, of Christians coming up behind you?
[00:24:53] Stephen Olson: Nik, I'll let you go.
[00:24:58] Nik Nedelchev: You are very humble, brother. Uh, number one, redeem the time. Sure, you you make mistakes. Confess your weakness, but then, dDo much better. Second thing, don't work as a, a single leader or, uh, going alone. Because alone you'll go faster. But if you want to go longer, you have to have a team, be a team builder and a leader, part of the team. Third, never allow your hands to be, to become dirty with touching money. I personally was never involved with money. Money can be great help, but also can be a very bad steward. Mm-hmm. And the last, you have to have a goal. And my goal is finish well. Finish strong.
[00:26:06] Laurie Lind: Finish well and finish strong. And I believe you will. Absolutely. How about you, Stephen? Advice for leaders coming up behind you?
[00:26:16] Stephen Olson: I think that, uh, one of the most important things is to be committed to the word of God. You know, today so much is being challenged in scripture. And I think that the fact that we need to be developing men and women who have, have a commitment to the word of God, whatever the cost. And secondly, I think, uh, is that I've just found that it's been important to hold the ministry, whatever you're doing, with open hands. Give God room to work, give room to work in the lives of the men and women that the Lord has placed in your way, which you can help but don't, uh, don't force things, but allow the Spirit to work in their life even as he is worked in yours. And, uh, and the other thing is to realize that learning is a two-way street. And, and be, be teachable basically. Not only you're encouraging, but, just through, uh, things that you do that you'll be encouraged through those you work with. And another area that I found is important, that everyone is a great work to value them. You know, we all have different gifts, different uh, personalities, different ways about us that just allowing God to work in that life, somehow or another to encourage him, uh, and the gifts that God is given.
[00:28:03] Todd: Wow. Good advice. Take it from Nik Nedelchev and Stephen Olson. Stay in God's word. Stay free from financial entanglement. Redeem your time. It's all really important. If you missed the first part of this conversation, go back to the previous episode to hear how Stephen and Nik traveled around Bulgaria in an East German Trabant lacking a windshield and how the Holy Spirit apparently entered the car and rode with them. And next week, plan to listen to our podcast as we hear from a pair of women, one in Canada, one in Latvia, about the joys, ups, downs, laughter, and tears of intercultural ministry together. Share our podcast with a friend. And we'll see you next time on Entrust Equipping Leaders.
Guests Nik Nedelchev and Stephen Olson describe their first meeting in Soviet-controlled Poland in 1978, how Nik "accidentally" ended up meeting the future Pope (three times!), how God used a troubled Trabant car to teach some spiritual lessons and how nonformal ministry training permeated Bulgaria during the Cold War.
Helpful links and resources
Entrust https://www.entrust4.org
Entrust interest form https://www.entrust4.org/join
Facebook (see the 1992 photo described in this episode, June 9 post) https://www.facebook.com/entrust4
Transcript
Speaker Name | Start Time | Text
Todd | 00;00;00;00 | Thanks for coming back to join us on Entrust Equipping Leaders. Quick trivia question: have you heard of a Trabant? The Trabant was a car, manufactured in the Soviet-controlled East Germany during the Cold War. Famous for being very small, very lightweight and very troublesome. For short, some people called them Trabbies, and you will hear about a wayward Trabbie today. Today, we're launching some storytelling episodes, stories from Entrust’s “cloak and dagger days,” when it was sneaking ministry training behind the Iron Curtain. You’ll hear why that happened then, why it matters now, and how you can be a part of it all going forward. Today, Laurie Lind welcomes Nik Nedelchev from Bulgaria and Stephen Olson, an American who lives in Austria.
Laurie Lind | 00;00;56;05 | Welcome to brother Steven Olson and Nik Nedelchev to the Entrust Equipping Leaders podcast. And it's great to see you both. And we have a lot of history to talk about and then things in the present time to talk about. But maybe we can start just with a funny story, which is very exciting. We have a photograph of the two of you standing in front of a beautiful body of water, and I think there's quite a story behind that picture. Can you tell us what's going on there?
Nik Nedelchev | 00;01; 31;01 | Yes, we have been privileged to be part of that training team with Mr. Stephen, crossing Bulgaria from north to south, from east to west and opposite side. And this was Journey actually, we traveled ... because my personal I didn't have personal car that time. And we are driving very, very good weather and we enjoy our fellowship.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;02;06;25 | But to have two Americans and one Bulgarian and he's driving, but East European way, their car, it's always fun. That's why we enjoy to stop and take this picture. It was wonderful because now, looking at this picture, see that I was not always say fat. I was only 71 kilograms. And we, after this stop with the beautiful Trabant, was the fun which happened.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;02;42;17 | But it's happened two times during two trips. I will give you first. This was beautiful mountainous by the way. Now it's the richest area with gold in the Balkan and the Canadians are getting in now, become very, very rich because there is gold. And we after we pass the gold area, discover that everything is okay until the engine of beautiful two cylinder, … that our Trabbie die.
Laurie Lind | 00;03;24;23 | Oh no, what a surprise. Well, sometimes it's surprise, [because have to be at our conference on time]. So, that Trabbie die. We discover there is benzin, or they say different names in different states [gasoline]. But for us, it's benzin. There is electricity, but Trabbie is not working. And it's the very creative Americans says, “You sit in the car and we will push.” Was about five kilometers.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;04;03;18 | Interesting story but this speaks about the coming of people coming from the other side of the world, the courage not to give up or to to make like that [hitchhiking]. We need the transport. We are on our way. Praise the Lord. Everything finish well. So who was pushing the car and who was sitting in the car?
Nik Nedelchev | 00;04;35;24 | I was the driver. Okay. And? And they were strong. Big. The citizens of the greatest nation. But pushing the car. And this is how the the more important is the result. You want to tell this story about the window. Well five weeks later we're with the same
Trabbie which was fixed … the engine problem was so small that if we knew what it is, we could fix ourselves.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;05;13;26 | But next there was crossing the big mountain with a very big difference in level. Elevation almost 3000 meters and then about 500 meters go down in the beautiful Valley of Roses. Well, that time we are only two: my dear brother Stephen and myself, and we enjoyed to be in the Valley of Roses. So then did something, everything was in front of us, you cannot see anything. It is a window.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;06;00;09 | The windshield shattered? Yeah. That shield. So the windshield in front of you just completely shattered. That's why, praise the Lord, you know, we did not care if accident, but Trabbie is not moving very fast and we stop and clean this [all the shattered glass]. And now we say we have no other option except to go and find the repairing shop.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;06;29;15 | What? I was surprised. It was Friday, about lunchtime. People prepare to go beautiful autumn to pick up tomatoes or to pick up whatever there, especially grapes. And we are going and going and driving. Well, it was not easy. Now, what surprised us was that Stephen, who is very spiritual, always have been very spiritual, sees about the spirituality and the presence of the God much better than me.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;07;06;08 | He says, “Nik I have a feeling that somebody is in the car. “Somebody? We are only two? The wind is blowing because …" “No, no, no, no. Somebody’s in the car.” I slow down there and I saw beautiful dove is sitting comfortable on the backseat and is watching us. A dove, a bird, a dove. Yes. Yeah. Dove.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;07;39;04 | And he says, “This is the Holy Spirit. God is with us now.” I, who are not that spiritual said, “No, this is dove. But how we can help the dove?” And we little by little help the dove to go. But the Spirit of the Lord was with us. God was with us. And that's why if somebody say that the one Presbyterian background and one Baptist background does not have any spirituality, that's not correct.
Laurie Lind | 00;08;18;20 | Do you have any more to add to this story, Stephen?
Stephen Olson: “No, it was when the windshield shattered and broke, , whatever and then suddenly this dove flew in, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't realize what had happened. But … then we heard this you know that the dove was, warbling, singing in the back, you know. Because it was knocked out. … but it came to consciousness and then it was ready to go.”
Nik Nedelchev | 00;09;05;13 | Actually one thing I did not say, clear, the dove was not the reason that the windshield was broken. It was later, when it came, it was more than 200 kilometers [with the broken windshield before the dove flew in], maybe we were driving and maybe that came came, sent as a messenger to us from the Lord.
Laurie Lind | 00;09;35;09 | OK, so you two have had some adventures! We have established that fact very clearly already. Let's go back to the beginning.( And that trip happened in the early nineties, I believe you said? Yes, it was 1992.) OK, so let's back up to when you first met each other. How and when did you two -- one American from Austria and one a Bulgaria-- n when and where and how did you meet?
Stephen Olson | 00;10;23;14 | Well, earlier, this was 1978, and earlier there was someone from our ministry, from Campus Crusade at the time, who went to Bulgaria and with some wrestlers, and they were meeting with the Bulgarian wrestlers, but also the director of our ministry used that as an occasion also to meet with some of the Christian brothers, some of the believers. And it was then that he met Nik and the family that was there, and the trip was arranged for Nik and three others to come to Poland, and we would have about three or four days together to just basically … it was to be more the basics, or the core teaching of of Campus Crusade for Christ at that time.
Stephen Olson | 00;10;51;09 | And so we had those, those days together. And yeah, it was really a special time. All of it was in translation. Nik didn't know hardly any English at the time, and there was his sister-in-law, the one who she could speak English, and she was our translator. And so we had a great time together. But in the midst of this, our time together, a colleague was also with me and every day we would meet in the mornings and then in the afternoons we would go to lunch.
Stephen Olson | 00;11;27;14 | They would go to lunch. We wouldn't go together. Laurie Lind: Why was that? That you didn’t go to lunch together? Stephen Olson: That was more the security issue. Because this was in 1978, communism was still very much alive and well. And, you know, we were a little unsure of of how we should, whether we should, relate to each other while we were in our free time, when we were going into the city and so forth.
Stephen Olson | 00;11;51;24 | You're going to the city and so forth. So anyway, we didn't do that. But what we did is that we separated, but then we would come back and then we would meet in the in the late afternoon and evenings. They [the Bulgarians] were actually sleeping at this, it was a Baptist church, small Baptist church. This one day we came back from having lunch and lo and behold, in front of the meeting place, the churc,h there was a police car that was parked there.
Stephen Olson | 00;12;21;19 | Two policemen were inside, and we decided to wait until the police left and but we waited and waited and waited. And we passed our meeting time. And then finally I said to my colleague, I said, “You know, you remember the story, you know, about Joshua instructing, being instructed to cross the Jordan and the priests were to step in. When they put their foot in the water, the waters would depart.”
Stephen Olson | 00;12;50;19 | And I said, “You know, that passage has always meant a lot to me because it taught me a lot about faith. You know, that faith is something that is active.” And I said, “You know what I think? I don't think the Lord brought us here to sit in a park. Let's just take this step of faith and go.”
Stephen Olson | 00;13;10;18 | And at the very moment we rose from our bench, the police car pulled away. Well, you know, that was a, you know, some may call it a coincidence, I mean, whatever they may call it. But for me, that was something that the Lord did in a very special way to show me the importance of exercising faith from the very beginning of the ministry, which I was involved in.
Stephen Olson | 00;13;36;22 | And so, we took that step of faith. We went in, the police were gone, we had a great time together, and out of that time it was decided that, hey, why not come to Bulgaria with us? We'll maybe take the next step and see what the Lord wants to do with maybe some of the training that we had to offer after that four days or so in Poland.
Stephen Olson | 00;14;01;22 | Laurie Lind: What was it that you were learning together [during those four days in Poland?] Stephen Olson: It was basically some of the core teaching of Crusade at the time, God's love and forgiveness, how to be sure you’re a Christian, how to walk in the Spirit, just all those those core teachings that were characteristic of Crusade’s training. Laurie Lind: And were there people at this event from other countries besides Poland and Bulgaria?
Stephen Olson | 00;14;29;02 | SNo. The only people who were there were just four Bulgarians and two Americans. Laurie Lind: What do you remember about that time, Nik?
Nik Nedelchev: One thing, I think I never told this. Stephen, but it's time to to speak the truth with love. That time was just preparation. We were traveling by very cheap trains, and we have to wait for our dates.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;15;03;07 | They[the Americans] left and we stayed two days later [waiting for the next cheap train]. And Billy Graham Association were preparing ... don't forget, this was 1978 … hen the kind of opposition of things were happening and Billy Graham Association prepare Billy Graham visit and they also fixed where he will speak. And one thing I never mention, they invite me and my roommate, not the girls, to show us the church in Krakow where Billy Graham will speak.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;15;52;19 | And they say, “Do you want to see who is the biggest reason why Billy Graham is coming?” And I say, “I have no idea.” They say, “OK, let's go to Wadowice.” It’s the seating place for the cardinal who later became Pope John Paul the Second. Now he gave the blessing. And the two Bulgarians are there and they invite us and the pope.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;16;26;01 | That time, he was the cardinal. And they allow us to get in and not only that, but he bless us. Now I am talking this time it was secret visit and we should never say that we have seen the cardinal from Krakow. After many years, when I was president of European Evangelical Alliance and the cardinal was already Pope John Paul [I could tell some people].
Nik Nedelchev | 00;17;02;10 | The second [time I met him] I was asked to go and visit him because we wanted the evangelicals in Little Italy to celebrate, to preach, to evangelize. The year 2000 is the year of Jubilee. And I was president of all the Protestants in Europe. He were so kind to meet us and answer positively to the request of the evangelicals in beautiful Italy, especially in the town of Rome.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;17;47;21 | And he gave me a golden medal at that time. And I never told anybody because there was very strong anti-ecumenical thinking in the Catholic movement in some places. But in 2001, Pope came to Bulgaria and yes, who was the first to invite him, was evangelical l believers and the little Catholic [community]. Catholic much smaller, maybe three times now in numbers.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;18;24;27 | He came. He was sick, his physical condition was not good. But I had offices at that time in London and in Stuttgart and in Geneva .. he saw me and the people try to organize to keep distance, not to transmit diseases. He said, no, no, no. In clear Bulgarian, he says, I have to kiss him here because I met him so many years ago now.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;18;58;18 | I did not remember about the first meeting. I remember the second meeting. But later he gave me the medal again. And that's why I have two medals. And he was very open, actually. He encouraged Catholics in Bulgaria to take part in evangelistic [things], showing Jesus film, and evangelistic campaign. The follow-up was to be done in Catholic churches there, not the evangelical churches, and also coffee and cakes and the good things for refreshment came from the Catholic churches.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;19;42;24 | Sorry I did not become Catholic, but this was something which I want to tell you because you haven't been with me. But you invite us to be there [in Poland]. First experience with Stephen, I met the future Pope. Laurie Lind: And when you say he said, I have to kiss you here. He kissed you on your forehead. Is that right?
Nik Nedelchev | 00;20;07;19 | When Pope he kiss somebody, this way means that he has a reason. And I ask him why. He says, because you have you are from Slavic country and I speak your language and you are evangelicals helping the little Catholic Church in Bulgaria by giving them literature and distribute the Holy Scripture, and I really want to show publicly the appreciation.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;20;50;25 | Now, how can I answer [your original question]? I met several big tall Americans in Krakow and I was thinking, if I have to become spiritual, I have to grow up, but it's too late. I was not a basketball player or tennis player, but still, Stephen became one of my dearest person in my life. Laurie Lind: Yeah, Stephen is very tall, physically tall. but after you two met in Poland, I mean, what were your impressions of each other or how did your friendship or your relationship continue to proceed?
Stephen Olson | 00;21;36;00 | Well, you know, we had from that … out of the meeting in Krakow ... we had arranged a meeting that would be in Bulgaria. So Nik suggested that he would bring together as many of the leaders that he knew in the country to have the opportunity to hear what we had just talked about in Krakow. And we had a couple of days together actually meeting in his home.
Stephen Olson | 00;22;08;10 | And it was really a very interesting time. They had lots of questions for me, didn't always agree with me. And it was a pretty stimulating kind of time. But out of that, out of that meeting, we just continued to say, okay, let's meet again. Let's meet again, then meet again.
Stephen Olson | 00;22;28;28 | And and there was a group that Nik began to bring around him. There were about ten, 12 brothers that would come and meet, plus some girls. And we just began meeting. And basically we were going through … again, I was with Crusade at the time, and and I'd have people who would come with me to travel to do different teaching or different topics.
Stephen Olson | 00;22;52;19 | And so forth. While we were doing that, I was traveling in other countries, working with BEE at the time and I changed over from Crusade and yeah, as I was using the courses and things in other countries, I thought, well, you know, maybe, maybe this could be of interest, you know, to the brothers there in Bulgaria.
Stephen Olson | 00;23;19;20 | So I took a course down [to Bulgaria,] the Galatians and Romans course, and let's just see what happens. And it was translated and it was then began to be used in a small way. It was just sort of every time I would go, we would make plans to meet again. Two months later, three months later, every maybe three or four times a year, we would get together.
Stephen Olson | 00;23;45;05 | There was this transition that went on from what was doing with we were doing with Crusade. We shifted over to the to the facilitating these courses. I think it's important to remember here that in the meeting in Krakow, there was another brother who was there. Nik has mentioned him too, Ruman. Ruman was someone who had a heart for possibly developing a publishing company in the country.
Stephen Olson | 00;24;18;01 | And there were several other missionaries that I'd gotten to know and Nik got to know, who we are all sort of work together on this. But one of the brothers had a real desire to help to develop the publishing company. So Ruman was very instrumental along with this one missionary in developing a publishing company.
Stephen Olson | 00;24;37;20 | It was all underground, but they were developing the system for translating courses and other books and so forth. And and all the while, you know, we would translate, we would have one course translated and another and another. And by 1989, basically when the wall came down, this publishing company began to come out of the ground and it became much more active in finding good translators and and beginning to translate more and more courses.
Stephen Olson | 00;25;21;20 | So Ruman was particularly very strategic, and as a civil engineer. And so the long story short is that we began to really translate courses very quickly and it provided funding. And I know one of the questions that you've had in the past, you know, BEE wasn't going to be working in Bulgaria and my boss, Jody, Jody Dillow, he was concerned about this because he didn't want to have the thought of raising another sum of money to this small country that was down in the southern part of Europe.
Stephen Olson | 00;26;00;13 | And I said to Jody, I said, “You don't have to worry about a dime. The Lord’s got it all covered.” And as time went on, as we needed money, money was provided by different people, individuals, churches, and sometimes later on, there was a foundation that became very interested in the country and really helped to provide the money to be able to translate and print the courses that were done.
Stephen Olson | 00;26;29;27 | I don't know. It's been maybe 12 to 15 courses that were printed in the country. Laurie Lind: And what was the need that was being met? I mean, what was available to Bulgarian Christians prior to when you started coming there or what was not available? And why was why were these courses suddenly like, why were they helpful or needed?
Nik Nedelchev | 00;26;53;15 | It began much earlier. Grace’s father was the one who graduated medical school in Bulgaria, and also he got converted and he was asked, What do you think for the future? He says, I want to serve the Lord because there are not good literature. Some of the churches in Bulgaria, the largest churches, have been strongly influenced by the liberal theology, And he says, but they are people who need training and I will go wherever God showed me to go.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;27;44;01 | He went to Dallas, Texas, because the person who invited him, his relationship was with Dallas, Texas. But remember, it was 1930, the beginning of the big Depression. He already had university with one semester, [but had not finished]. And that's why he was allowed to to study there. But he could not get his diploma without a university degree. They sent him to Wheaton College, where for two years he completed what is necessary.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;28;23;21 | And at Wheaton College actually he decide that he need to be baptized, took a baptism by faith because he was baptized as a baby and he became part of the College Church and also Bible Church. He has classmat,e roommate, the founder of Tyndale Publishers. I just met his grandson [the grandson of the founder of Tyndale Publishers]. And I met him, Mr. Taylor. Those people became, during the Communistic time, one of the supporters using Slavic Gospel Association and several others.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;29;10;00 | But when the father of Grace returned to the country, he came with desire to start the program, which will be informal because that time was not possible to talk for formal education. And he developed courses which were helping and distribute to the people in typewriter. And this was the first idea which during the communistic time, when everything was restricted, he was known that he has a team of people who are doing this kind of training.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;29;53;02 | But informal training, which was already well known, not the system, but the kind of training. And that's why I will say God orchestrate everything perfectly on the right day. Laurie Lind: Let's pause for just a brief intermission. I think I need to explain a couple of things that you've already heard and a little bit that is still coming up.
Laurie Lind | 00;30;24;28 | So we're listening to a conversation between Nik Nedelchev of Bulgaria, and Stephen Olson, who is American and lives with his Austrian wife in Austria. As Nik talks about Grace, that’s his wife. So Nik is married to Grace, and it was Grace's father who was that Bulgarian man who traveled to Dallas and to Wheaton to go to Bible College and seminary and then returned to Bulgaria in about 1930 and really brought Christian ministry training to Bulgaria, maybe for more or less the first time and in a non-formal or informal manner, which was the setup that Entrust began to use, when Entrust showed up a few years later.
Laurie Lind | 00;31;11;11 | So Nik is telling us that that non-formal training, the groundwork, had already been laid for that kind of low key, quiet training, especially under the Soviet regime. When Nik talks about the changes, he's referring to the end of Soviet rule in Bulgaria and Eastern Europe and basically the coming of freedom as of about 1989.
Laurie Lind | 00;31;37;13 | And you hear a lot of references by both Nik and Stephen to BEE, or “bee.” It almost sounds like they're saying the name of a little bug. But BEE was Biblical Education by Extension. And that was the early name for this non-formal ministry training that was being taken into these communist countries secretly before the changes, as Nik says.
Nik Nedelchev | 00;32;03;27 | So having explained all that, let's get back to the story from Nik. Nik Nedelchev: After the changes, the roups grew up and we had 18 groups with over 600 students in them. We are beginning to have foreign missionaries. But even after 1990, to come and live in Bulgaria, no one came. I mean, people were coming and leaving. But actually this motivate local Bulgarians to use 2 Timothy 2:2, and to put in practice.
Stephen Olson | 00;32;45;17 | And you know, I've always looked at the ministry of BEE in the sense that you know God is provides a season of time where it's something that has a lot of fruit from it. But it also develops I think people in the country to where they would begin writing their own materials. They began they are learning different ways to teach it.
Stephen Olson | 00;33;12;20 | It's been a catalyst in many ways. As we see in Bulgaria now there's so much more goes on ... also now in other countries. Yeah, people remember BEE, but there's much more going on now because there's so many of these young men, women, who are teachers, pastors, lay leaders, wherever across the country.
Laurie Lind | 00;33;40;08 | So the main point of today was to hear how Nik and Stephen first met each other, which ends up was back in 1978 in Poland, and how that led to ministry training happening in Bulgaria to the point now where a whole women's training organization is running so smoothly that Enrust and BEE don't even know anymore how many groups there are, how many women are involved.
Laurie Lind | 00;34;09;03 | It's entirely owned and run by Bulgarian women who are continuously equipping and training further generations of women to serve other women in the local church. Also, some of the early men that were trained by Entrust are now running their own training organizations completely; Bible school, seminary-level training across the country, and even training the people group that is known as the Roma.
Laurie Lind | 00;34;36;12 | We sometimes erroneously call them gypsies, but the Roma people, leaders are getting ministry training as a result of those early days of training behind the Iron Curtain that Stephen and Nik were part of. We'll stop here for today. Pick it up again next time with another adventure story, with Nik praying -- which in and of itself is quite beautiful and also entertaining -- I must say.
Laurie Lind | 00;35;03;08 | And then some advice for us, for next generations coming up, from these two seasoned men of God, followers of Jesus, and things they've learned through the years that we can learn from. So I hope you can join us again next time.
Todd | 00;35;25;08 | Thanks so much for listening. We'll pick up the conversation next time with Stephen Olson and his good friend Nik Nedelchev telling about their heart-wrenching scare in a barred prison-like building in Bulgaria. Meanwhile, please consider this: men and women are eager for ministry training now in many parts of the world, just as Nik and his Bulgarian friends were back in the day. Is God tugging your heart to do as Stephen did, to take some risks and come alongside people like that? If so, get in touch. Go to www.entrust4.org. Click “Join Us” and fill out an interest form. That just starts the conversation. No obligation. That’s www.entrust4.org. We would love to dialogue with you. And join us next time for Entrust Equipping Leaders!
Host Laurie Lind takes on you a brief survey of this podcast and the new story-telling direction it's about to take. Plus, a challenge about the Pauls and Timothys in your life.
Helpful links and resources
Entrust https://www.entrust4.org
Laurie's email lauriel@entrust4.org
Transcript
Speaker Name | Start Time | Text
Laurie Lind | 00;00;10;10 | Welcome to a special episode of Entrust Equipping Leaders. My name is Laurie Lind. I have been the host of this podcast for the last almost a year now and I will continue to be your host going forward. We're at a little bit of the so we say it's a hiatus. Season one has finished. If this is Downton Abbey or Call the Midwife, season two is about to begin.
Laurie Lind | 00;00;39;18 | So in between here, I just wanted to take one episode to talk directly to you and give you a little information and then let you know. We're about to turn a major corner with the focus of this podcast. So here's where we're going today. It won't take long, but we're going to talk about what we've done so far on this podcast, what we have planned for the future.
Laurie Lind | 00;01;05;14 | I have some thank you's to make, and then I have a couple of specific things I want to ask you to do. So that's where we're headed. So first of all, number one, what we've done so far. This podcast started, as I mentioned last week with my guest host Jason Pettis. It started as a companion to printed articles that we were publishing on our website, which you can still find those articles, as we're called, equipping Christian leaders.
Laurie Lind | 00;01;36;06 | And it was always a pair of articles, one by someone outside Entrust, sort of an expert in a field and then someone inside a trust and then trust staff member commenting on that topic from an Entrust point of view. So some of the topics that we tackled with those articles and then with corresponding interviews with the authors were contextualizing ourselves as we serve people in new cultures, using online technology to train and equip people.
Laurie Lind | 00;02;09;08 | Why train leaders at all? And specifically, why might pastors focus on training and equipping leaders within their church? And then why focus on training women specifically? What were the differences? The pros and the cons of formal and non-formal ministry training? We did a few episodes about prayer, about the why, the how, the win of praying as both a leader and an equip are of leaders.
Laurie Lind | 00;02;37;07 | And, you know, one of our guests for that topic of prayer was Anne Graham Lotz, Pastor Billy Graham's daughter. We did some articles about the adult learning theory called Constructivism and how to think about that from a Christian point of view. We had one episode that was a bit of a departure from all of that. It was more of a travelog in which one of our Hungarian staff members and one of our American staff members, Agi and Trish, described their multi-week multi-country trip across Europe for ministry purposes, for disciplining purposes, and they also described the ups and downs of travel and missed flights and lost luggage and some amazing God stories along the way.
Laurie Lind | 00;03;25;02 | That one proved to be one of our very popular episodes, as have many of the others in the past. So that's what we've done thus far, primarily more of an academic type podcast and all tied to articles that are posted yet on our website, which you can read any time. It's www.entrust4.org, Find those articles called Equipping Christian Leaders.
Laurie Lind | 00;04;00;10 | Now we're going to start to focus this podcast in a little bit different direction as of two weeks from today. It's going to be more of a storytelling format. I think stories are fun to listen to while you're driving, while you're working out, doing housework, working on a crossword puzzle, whatever it is you might be doing while you have a podcast going.
Laurie Lind | 00;04;24;20 | So we're going to do more storytelling with two guests at a time on the podcast. So coming up in just a couple of weeks, we're going to feature Nik and Stephen. Nik is Bulgarian. Stephen has connections in the U.S. and Austria, and they'll be talking about how they became friends and colleagues back during the Cold War days and the kind of cloak and dagger days of interest past and how God used them in each other's lives and some of their adventures.
Laurie Lind | 00;04;59;06 | And then what all of that means today. What came of all of that cloak and dagger sneaking around behind the Iron Curtain back in the day? And we'll hear from Moe and Lasma. That's one of our Canadian colleagues and one of our Latvian colleagues. Again, how God brought them together and what God has done in and through them in a partnership and what's going forward now as a result of working together.
Laurie Lind | 00;05;26;23 | We're going to hear from several of our people who work in and or live in Spain and our very beginnings of a really amazing Spanish language ministry and so on. We're really going to dove into our own dramatic past and interest. As you know, we started as a ministry that was taking ministry leadership training to men and women behind the Iron Curtain during the Cold War, sneaking in and out of countries that were pretty closed off to the West.
Laurie Lind | 00;05;59;06 | And we do have what we call our cloak and dagger stories. And we want to talk about those because those are interesting and fun to hear. At the same time, though, we want to bring those stories into the present. What did it all amount to? What came of it? What's going on today? What can we continue to do together in partnership, in ministry?
Laurie Lind | 00;06;20;00 | You, my beloved listeners and our colleagues at Entrust and how might you get involved in all of that more and more? So that's where we're heading with this and Trust Equipping Leaders podcast going forward. All of that said, now I want to just thank a few people. This is part three of this short, little informative, odd episode of Entrust Equipping Leaders.
Laurie Lind | 00;06;48;17 | I do want to say, first of all, the Lord God Almighty himself for giving us technology and giving us the ability to record podcasts and put them out there and speak freely about our living God and our Savior Jesus and what He has done and is doing in this world that we live in. So all thanks and glory to him, first and foremost.
Laurie Lind | 00;07;12;21 | I also want to thank you for listening to this podcast for occasionally sending me comments and input, for letting me know that you're there for subscribing and maybe sharing the podcast and just letting the world know that we're here. And I really hope you'll continue to do that. And then I want to thank three now for actually four men who have helped me a lot in getting this thing going, because I'm not the most strong in the world of technology.
Laurie Lind | 00;07;44;02 | So the first person I want to thank is Jason Kuntz, who got me started with even how to use online technology to record a podcast. And he started me out using the program called Audacity, which was really good for the very beginning, and I started to learn a lot. And Jason is very patient and was right there to just help me get going.
Laurie Lind | 00;08;07;09 | Then I found a man named Andy Pulll and Andy helped me find the program called Reaper, on which we now record this podcast and edited. And Reaper became a little bit more user friendly for a non-tech person like me. And Andy very patiently helped me get going on learning how to use the Reaper audio recording program. Then came Luke Johnson, who's amazing at writing code, and I would tell him about little audio problems that I had, and he would say, What do you want me to write a code for that?
Laurie Lind | 00;08;42;14 | And I was like, Well, sure, if that's something you can do. And just like click, click, click, click and years ago, just apply this and wow, amazing, smart young man got me going on a few of my little audio problems. And then finally I found a young guy named Tim Jaycox, and he happens to know Reaper quite well and has done a lot of audio recording for bands and various things.
Laurie Lind | 00;09;06;18 | And he's been helping me fine tune and offered me help along the way. Very patient with me. I realize my sound quality is still not great and I'm working on that. I have some microphone issues here will get it better and better as we go forward, I assure you. But Jason, Andy, Luke and Tim couldn't have gotten to where we are without you four and your expertise with various aspects of audio communication.
Laurie Lind | 00;09;35;16 | So now we've arrived at section four of this short little podcast today and that's what can you, my friends, my listeners do. I'd really like to ask you to pray for this podcast as it goes forward to become more and more helpful, more of a real resource for Christian leaders and people who train and equip Christian leaders, and for all of us who seek to follow Jesus in various ways in our respective spheres of life.
Laurie Lind | 00;10;05;19 | Make a plan to keep listening to this. We drop a new episode every other Friday, and I'm praying, prayerfully trusting God that I won't miss one and have new ones coming up for you every two weeks. Subscribe or follow this podcast wherever you get your podcasts, share episodes that you like or tell people about it. And then if you're able to leave a review, I understand it's kind of tricky to leave a review.
Laurie Lind | 00;10;33;26 | You pretty much have to be listening on an app, which I myself don't even do. I listen more just on my laptop. So if you're listening on an app and you're able to find the place where you write reviews and you would write a review for this, I would be very, very grateful to you. And then finally, you can communicate directly with me, with any input, any thoughts, any suggestions, any constructive criticism, whatever that might be at my email address, which is lauriel@entrust4.org.
Laurie Lind | 00;11;07;09 | So that's my first name, Laurie l a u r i e and then my last initial, which is l. So Laurie l at Entrust 4 dot org. I try to put that email in some of the show notes. I also always include the website address for interest and then links to any other relevant resources that we may have spoken about in that episode.
Laurie Lind | 00;11;40;24 | So please keep listening. Keep praying. Subscribe, share, review and drop me an email from time to time at lauriel@entrust4.org. Thank you again for listening. God bless you and I just want to leave you with this. Think about who is your Paul and who is your Timothy. Who is the older, mature, wiser Christian? Who is investing into you and pouring into you?
Laurie Lind | 00;12;11;01 | And then who is that younger, possibly newer believer in to whom you are pouring and investing and mentoring? If you don't have a Paul and you don't have a Timothy, ask God to show you who that might be and approach some people and ask them, Would you be a Paul in my life? Might I be a Paul into your life?
Laurie Lind | 00;12;32;07 | May I take you on as my Timothy? That might sound sound prideful to you, but it doesn't have to be. Just. Just let them know you want to invest in them. Much like Paul invested in Timothy. Let's all be investing in people. Let's all be training and equipping next generations of followers of Christ and next generations of leaders to lead well in the context of the local church and in various ministries around us, we can't do it alone.
Laurie Lind | 00;13;00;25 | No generation stands alone. We do need each other. I need you. Thank you for listening and I'll see you next week on Entrust Equipping Leaders.
Helpful links
Entrust https:www.entrust4.org
Laurie's email lauriel@entrust4.org
Transcript
Speaker Name | Start Time | Text
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;00;11;06 | Welcome to Entrust Equipping Leaders, the podcast for Christian leaders, people who equip Christian leaders and people who desire to grow in their Christian leadership skills. Last time you heard host Laurie Lind interviewing Jason Pettys about Facilitating Relational Learning. Today, Jason turns the microphone around and makes Laurie answer a few questions.
Jason Pettys | 00;00;38;03 | Hey, everybody, this is Jason Pettys, your guest host for the podcast Today. And Today, I'm going to interview your typical podcast host here. Laurie, you know that Laurie and I have been friends for a long time and going to the same church, I've been wondering about what she does and what interest is all about. I know a few things, but we've never really sat down and had a really good conversation about that.
Jason Pettys | 00;00;59;04 | And then I found out you kind of wanted to send this out on a podcast. So we thought, Hey, let me ask you the questions will have this conversation that I wanted to have anyway, but let's have it on the on the podcast and record it and see how it goes. So you ready for this, Laurie?
Laurie Lind | 00;01;13;13 | Well, I think so. Don't ask anything too tricky.
Jason Pettys | 00;01;16;28 | Okay. All right. So first of all, help me get a better picture of what's given us. Give us some insight into the core mission and purpose behind interest. What's interest all about?
Laurie Lind | 00;01;29;17 | That's a very good question. And it's it comes up a lot. That question, the tagline for the organization is Multiplying leaders for multiplying churches. So that gives you a cup of clue, something about leaders and something about churches. Our theme verses second Timothy two to or Paul's talking to Timothy and saying the things that you heard from me in the presence of many witnesses and trust to reliable people who will be able to teach others also.
Laurie Lind | 00;01;58;16 | And the concept there is just one generation of followers of Christ really investing in another generation of followers of Christ who are faithful and will in turn invest in additional generations of followers of Christ. And not just invest. I mean, invest. Yes, it's leadership training. We would call it pastoral leadership training, church training started sneak in behind the Iron Curtain back in the seventies is how we knew.
Jason Pettys | 00;02;28;05 | That's how I got started. All My goodness. That's that's got to have some crazy stories behind it.
Laurie Lind | 00;02;32;28 | It does, actually. Yep. And that was really taking training to men who were shepherding churches under communism under the thumb of the communist rule and had no access to resources.
Jason Pettys | 00;02;47;16 | You got to be dealing with people who, like, just came to know the Lord and there's getting to be a group of together. And now they're in charge. And they know I mean, they want to follow the Lord, but they know nothing. And boy, that's I can see how that would be a to try to equip. And in this case, what it sounds like we you're doing is their interest as interests mission is lasering in on the people who would be the leaders of those groups to equip them with, particularly what they need.
Laurie Lind | 00;03;15;28 | You're absolutely right, Jason. That's right. What they need and finding out what the needs were and then finding the best materials or developing the best materials. And in the early days, it was a lot of navigators, materials and other things from other seminaries that were initially almost as translated, but then more and more new training courses written and translated and literally smuggled books in, and then quietly meeting with these guys and holding seminars and helping them learn.
Laurie Lind | 00;03;50;19 | And then eventually expanded to where like the women were like, Well, we want to learn too. And so more and more offering for women and women actually discovering that they could have leadership roles in the church. I mean, they they didn't only have to play the piano, but they could perhaps help with with leading small groups or teaching in various capacities, whatever the various denominations had as a conviction about that, we don't want to violate as in trust the convictions of different denominations, but in general helping people learn what they might need to learn to lead in various capacities.
Laurie Lind | 00;04;31;28 | Well, in the context of the local church.
Jason Pettys | 00;04;35;23 | Absolutely. It’s interest mainly engaging with people who maybe are in countries where there's not a lot of resources for that kind of thing and not a lot of educations and trainings or whatever a thing like that? Or would somebody who's in the United States and say, I'm I'm just hanging on this church, but I'd sure like to learn how to, uh, disciple people better.
Jason Pettys | 00;04;56;26 | And, you know, the I want to do second Timothy two too as well. I want to be involved in that. How it might they engage with and trust?
Laurie Lind | 00;05;03;27 | Yeah, that's a good question too, Jason. And yes, we have the answer to all of that is yes, we do have things going on overseas. We have various types of things that look quite different from one another, kind of a secret Bible institute in the Middle East that is an actual on site facility where people are coming in, really being equipped to go back to the home country that they're from and lead house churches where the country they're in.
Laurie Lind | 00;05;33;08 | They have no solid biblical training whatsoever. And then we've got a school that we work with in South Africa called the International College of Bible and Missions and several of the the academic dean and the other faculty members are trust staff members, and they're literally teaching Bible college, seminary, seminary level courses for people who can't hardly afford to go to college.
Laurie Lind | 00;06;02;11 | And it's aimed at the the poorest of the poor, those who are pastoring churches in the townships of South Africa. And so that school really has its own niche. And so that's like a non that's a brick and mortar school. And we've got other things in different parts of the world to equip leaders in different ways. Then we get to the U.S., where we have no shortage of seminaries, Bible colleges, books, radio, TV.
Laurie Lind | 00;06;27;05 | I mean, we have resources galore in the West, but we do have things we offer even in the West, including like the course that you took with us. Jason Facilitating relational learning. We have a series of four modules of which that one is the beginning f RL And then that leads to developing a discerning heart and then Discovery Bible study, which is really about inductive Bible study.
Laurie Lind | 00;06;54;20 | And the fourth one in that series is specifically for women equipping women to serve. And that's a whole to go through all four of those over the course of like four years, you are gaining a lot of skills and a lot of input and a lot of practice on shepherding women in any capacity. Then we have other courses that are available for sale on our website that you can buy and walk through with a group, like about counseling or building a lasting marriage or raising children or growing a healthy church, various ones that are just a real in-depth seminary level course that if you feel you want to grow more, you could just use it
Laurie Lind | 00;07;38;26 | for yourself. Or you could go through it with a small group and maybe sharpen some skills or some understanding for use in the local church.
Jason Pettys | 00;07;47;13 | Nice that. So that the experience I had with Farrell was absolutely revolutionary in terms of helping me be feel a lot more effective in leading small groups. And so and I think about the content of that material and the grace and the truth behind that that was intertwined together in that and for interest to be bringing that to Third World countries, I think of these people who are small Jesus following communities who are really and there's so many little ways they can get off track and to give them that grace and truth together to lead those people.
Jason Pettys | 00;08;20;10 | But I think that it would be a ministry that would can prevent a lot of trouble for small, fledgling churches. So that's a great to hear. Now you've also got this podcast going on and I guess this has been going on for how long have you been doing this podcast now?
Laurie Lind | 00;08;37;27 | Well, I think we launched in July of last year, which was 2022. So yeah, just not even quite a year yet as we speak.
Jason Pettys | 00;08;49;16 | So when you launched it, what what did you why did you do that? What do you hope to accomplish? And has that evolved at all as you know, as time has gone on and you've done some more? Like what? What are your what's your goal? What do you what's your aim?
Laurie Lind | 00;09;03;10 | Yeah, thanks. That's a good question. And I must say, I think that aim is somewhat changing as we go. Initially, this podcast was tied to a newsletter that we had called Equipping Christian Leaders. And quarterly we published two articles, one by a professional like a Christian expert, so to speak, a pastor or a seminary professor, and then a companion article by someone on Entrust staff and both articles on the same topic showing how Entrust approaches that topic.
Laurie Lind | 00;09;38;28 | For example, contextualization or constructivism or why train women was one, or equipping people online and harnessing technology. So we'd have these two articles. And then I started to think, Well, let's take these articles out from just mailing them out to the people on the mailing list and we also have them on the website. Let's make it a verbal thing and maybe reach a few more people because it's really rich content.
Laurie Lind | 00;10;05;23 | So I just started going back in time and contacting all of our authors and.
Jason Pettys | 00;10;10;15 | Oh, nice.
Laurie Lind | 00;10;11;11 | Interviewing them one by one. And producing one or two or three episodes per author on that topic. And now, however, I have come to the end of those articles that we had. And so even as we speak, I'm thinking that this podcast is going to change direction just a little bit and become a little bit more storytelling, and yet continuing to be a resource about training and equipping leaders, sharpening leadership skills, honing what we do know or gaining what we don't even know that we don't know.
Laurie Lind | 00;10;50;15 | To use our spiritual gifts and lead well in various ways in the local church.
Jason Pettys | 00;10;57;06 | Who are the kinds of people who you think are going to be most interested in the podcast? But who should be listening? Or who do we recommend this to?
Laurie Lind | 00;11;07;27 | Well, that's right. I know who I would love to have listening. I'm not sure that we've gotten the attention of that entire target audience yet, but I would think it could be definitely for sure. Pastors or elders, deacons, people in leadership in churches, but really also anyone who's wanting to grow in their faith and become more mature in Christ and and continue to invest in next generations of followers of Christ.
Laurie Lind | 00;11;40;20 | Because I think all of us can be equipping next generations of Christian leaders, whether we're we have that hat on, so to speak. I'm a professor at such and such seminary, or I'm quote unquote, just Laurie who comes to church every Sunday at this church. But there's we I love the saying that we all should have a Paul and we all should have a timothy in our life, someone who's investing in us and someone in whom we are investing as a follower of Christ.
Laurie Lind | 00;12;12;25 | And then I think what Entrust has to offer more and more is not just workbooks and training courses, but just a lot of expertize from a lot of people on how to do that, how to walk alongside someone and help them, disciple them, mentor them, help them grow in their faith. And then how to really use your skill as well in shepherding a flock, be that a small group, a Bible study group or an established church or a new church.
Jason Pettys | 00;12;45;26 | It strikes me as you're saying, that, you know, when you think about the where interest kind of got its roots from, it's like, okay, you don't have the luxury of going away for a four year degree to get your thing. It's like these people are in leadership positions. Leadership positions right now. And how do we get them on the ground running to not mess this up?
Jason Pettys | 00;13;06;28 | So to to do what the Lord would have them to do as as shepherds and pastors and leaders. And and that's what I found with the VFR material. It was extremely practical, useful, easy to put it into practice. Right now, we're not we're not very theoretical. You know, the material wasn't theory or heady or difficult to assimilate. It was very easy to take in and apply and make an impact in the local church right now.
Jason Pettys | 00;13;38;26 | So I think that's that's it's a great thought. And so as you're thinking about the the episodes that you've done, what are some that stick out to you as that might be, people might want to go back and listen to them, need to get a a good flavor of kind of the best that we've that you've put out so far.
Jason Pettys | 00;13;58;28 | Would you say?
Laurie Lind | 00;14;00;24 | Well, I can definitely say that it's it's improved over time those first few or I can I myself I don't really listen to them a whole lot because I don't like to hear my own voice. But I know that it's they were a little bit less than professional and there's still a long way to go and production value, definitely.
Laurie Lind | 00;14;17;13 | But I would highly recommend the pair of articles about prayer and by God's Grace and Graham Lotz agreed to do an interview with us about prayer. She's passionate about prayer. And it's Billy Graham's daughter, by the way, and she had done some work with us back in the 1990s in Russia and Romania. So she kind of knew organization.
Laurie Lind | 00;14;42;19 | And I mean, that episode is just the prayer. She just sort of emphasizes. If you just have prayer on your to do, list your checklist as a leader, you're starting wrong already. Like prayer has to be everything you need to be everything needs to be suffused in your time in God's presence. And so, I mean, that was very uplifting to me and encouraging at the same time.
Laurie Lind | 00;15;09;00 | And then actually we had a pair of interviews that several people have told me, my goodness, I've gone back and listened several times, and they were about best practices for using the online technology. So if you are training people online and maybe they're halfway around the world or maybe you're doing a Zoom study, or maybe you're doing distance education.
Laurie Lind | 00;15;32;24 | We have a seminary professor from Harding University in Arkansas who talks who teaches that. And he just had so many thoughts about cultural sensitivity and just things to keep in mind. And then at the same time, we had one of our own staff who does a lot of online training, really giving just amazing tips, best practices. So I'd, I'd recommend those two to anybody who may or may ever take part in any online learning of any kind now.
Jason Pettys | 00;16;04;27 | So if some of us want to look those up or recommend to their friends, what platforms are you putting this podcast out on?
Laurie Lind | 00;16;12;11 | Well, as the saying goes, wherever you get your podcast should be able to find us. The name of this is And Trust Equipping Leaders, and we're out there on iTunes and Spotify and all the rest. You can also go to our Web site, which is simply and trust the number four dawg to and entrust entrust the number 4G and under resources just click podcast.
Laurie Lind | 00;16;39;10 | It's right there. So I think that's maybe two of the most simple ways or just search for and trust equipping leaders.
Jason Pettys | 00;16;47;28 | All right. Is there anything else about the podcast or interest that you wanted to make sure that that I knew or that the one else knew, too?
Laurie Lind | 00;16;56;10 | Now, I just love to have people subscribe if you find it. If you I mean, obviously you found it. You're listening right now. Thank you for listening. Give us a review. Subscribe, click the subscribe button. Tell someone else if you find it good and help us to spread the word about this. And Jason, now I'm going to flip the microphone around one more time.
Laurie Lind | 00;17;15;09 | I do want to ask you something. As you think about all that we've talked about, about what interest is about in this podcast, what topics or what guests come to mind that you would find interesting or helpful in upcoming episodes of interest equipping leaders?
Jason Pettys | 00;17;33;06 | You know, the I like small groups, and I'm also interested in this is going to get really this I don't know if you want to include this on the podcast, Laurie, but I'll throw it out there and you can do it. I was I'm interested in how American church culture has sort of in my feeling has gotten a little bit big and crusty and and like we've built in a lot of traditions that and they're not necessarily harmful in and of themselves but it may be time that to to to to relook at some of those things.
Jason Pettys | 00;18;16;08 | And and, you know, it was interesting. So there was a book, Francis Chan, his book Letters to the Church, which is very critical. And I it was okay. I only read like half of it because I agreed with almost everything he was saying, but he didn't have any solutions like, okay, well what are we going to do, you know, and oh, and so if someone can maybe leave a comment on the podcast or they said, you got to finish the book, or maybe they know what the answers are or whatever.
Jason Pettys | 00;18;45;04 | I don't know. So, so because I and I felt like so I'm intrigued with people who are able to create. I mean, when you read the New Testament letters like Paul writes, there is such an intimacy and a family oriented ness about what's going on there and to in an embracing of everyone together in a way that seems authentic and it's it's it's hard to keep that freshness going and the authenticity and things like that.
Jason Pettys | 00;19;15;13 | And so I am intrigued with authors or not. I mean, people who are thinking about that and thinking about how do we and the main goal there isn't to make me more comfortable. I think the main goal is like I'm just trying to what I'm going to say is kind of controversial, but it's like, how do we make the church culturally irrelevant?
Jason Pettys | 00;19;35;15 | Like the New Testament is very non prescriptive, especially compared to the Old Testament, right? The Old Testament was Here's your culture in a box. It's looks like the New Testament is we go out to all of the nations and in there where they are in their cultures, we make little churches among those people. And and I think the New Testament says what it says and doesn't say what it says because it needs to fit into the whole world.
Jason Pettys | 00;20;02;11 | And now the way that church today you know in America was made was based on, you know, in the early 1900s, that was what worked for everybody. And and we kind of stick to some of that stuff. Now, how do we make small communities of Jesus followers, i.e. churches? What would it look like if like this was no churches had never been to America before and missionaries showed up as sort of making churches, what would they look like?
Jason Pettys | 00;20;30;12 | I think it would be a little different than what we've got now. And I'm I'm intrigued by what that might be. Not that when I say cultural, relevant, we're sticking to the plain teachings of Scripture that what the Bible's simple is, particularly the New Testament simply says. But anyway, yes, that question you got more than you bargained for.
Jason Pettys | 00;20;47;16 | Probably.
Laurie Lind | 00;20;49;22 | Well, I think you might be saying something like, well, what is really a church? Or What does it mean to be a church or what? What does corporate gathering and worship need to? What should it be? What should it look like? What could it look like? What's really core and what's become all about culture? Something along those lines.
Jason Pettys | 00;21;12;16 | Yeah, sure.
Laurie Lind | 00;21;14;01 | Yeah. You know, that does make me think there's one more episode we had that I have heard many people say they liked a lot and I meant not any of them were bad. I mean, you can listen to all of them and there's something good there with amazing guests along the way. But there's one way back with Pastor Jeff Simpson from the Alliance Church in Lansdowne, Maryland.
Laurie Lind | 00;21;33;21 | And I asked him the whole thing was why even equip leaders? Why in the local church, especially in the US, focus on equipping leaders? And he really talked about how pastors just get busy and they just do what they do and it's easier to do everything themselves. And he liked so much the idea of just slowing down and investing in a few people and letting people lead different things in different ways and maybe even fail sometimes.
Laurie Lind | 00;22;00;24 | And that's okay. And I don't know his approach and the things he said were very fresh and almost making me think of what you're saying. Jason I'm like.
Jason Pettys | 00;22;09;26 | Yeah, no, you're talking my language with what? But just what you said about that makes you want to go back and and check that one out so that I think you're you're right on.
Laurie Lind | 00;22;18;02 | Yeah. Church can be it doesn't have to be what you think it has to be. Yes maybe is what he was almost saying so yeah. Check that one out. That was a real early one about why train leaders and Pastor Jeff Simpson was the guest that day. But yeah, I'm really interested to know what I like what you're saying.
Laurie Lind | 00;22;38;27 | Jason and I will explore that further and maybe revisit some conversations with you down the road.
Jason Pettys | 00;22;45;00 | And if you got if you're getting feedback or comments on the different podcasting platforms, I'm sure you're keeping an eye on those. So whether the listeners have ideas, I'm sure you're very open to those. So yes, and I'll invite on your behalf, invite your listeners to barrage you with ideas. So so Lori, thanks a lot for taking the time to explain to me what's going on.
Jason Pettys | 00;23;06;20 | And these are questions. I was funny. I was, you know, telling my wife, Allison is going to be visiting with you about some of this stuff. She goes, What does she do for interest? I was like, I'm going to find out. And now I know.
Laurie Lind | 00;23;16;17 | So.
Jason Pettys | 00;23;17;13 | So thanks a lot for the time, Laurie. Appreciate it.
Laurie Lind | 00;23;20;07 | Thank you. Jason.
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;23;22;06 | You've been listening to Entrust Equipping Leaders, the podcast for Christian leaders, people who equip Christian leaders and people who desire to grow in their Christian leadership skills. Today's guest, Jason Pettys, asked Laurie about this podcast, and she asked him for ideas for upcoming episodes. Now we'd like to ask you what topics would you find practical and helpful in relation to equipping men and women to lead well in the local church, both at home or overseas?
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;23;55;29 | What guests would you like to hear from? Write your ideas in the comments section? Or send an email to Laurie. Her address is lauriel@entrust4.org. That's l-a-u-r-i-e-l at entrust the number four dot org. You can find her email address in the show notes. Send your ideas and you may hear them addressed in future episodes of Entrust Equipping Leaders.
Helpful links
Facilitating Relational Learning https://www.entrust4.org/core-modules
Entrust https://www.entrust4.org/
Transcript
Speaker Name | Start Time | Text
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;00;10;07 | Welcome to Entrust Equipping Leaders, the podcast for Christian leaders, people who equip Christian leaders and people who desire to grow in their Christian leadership skills. Today, our host Laurie Lind chats with Jason Pettys about Entrust's’flagship training module, Facilitating Relational Learning. Women around the world are gaining small group leadership skills from this module. What about men? Let's hear what Jason has to say.
Laurie Lind | 00;00;41;27 | I'm really glad to welcome my friend Jason Pettys to Entrust Equipping Leaders today to talk about some things about Entrust and some of the things that Entrust has to offer people. Before we get into all that, though, Jason, could you tell us a little bit about yourself, about your family, your involvement in church over the years?
Jason Pettys | 00;01;04;07 | Sure, yeah. So I came to the Lord as a freshman in college and got into a really good discipline group that helped me to to grow pretty fast and follow the Lord pretty well and get kind of ingrained in my culture. That part of following the Lord was being, you know, pretty heavily involved in a local church of some sort.
Jason Pettys | 00;01;27;22 | And so now I've got married since then and had eight kids since then, and the youngest is 12 now. So we've seen them grow up a little bit and been involved in a couple of different churches and in a pretty interested in small group leadership. And also just Bible teaching in general is kind of where my gift things have taken me in terms of being involved in church, things going on.
Laurie Lind | 00;01;53;00 | And you did mention you've had eight kids. Yeah, that ten right there. You've got a little flock.
Jason Pettys | 00;02;00;25 | My goodness. Yeah, that's for sure.
Laurie Lind | 00;02;04;04 | Yeah. I bet that feels like discipleship at times. Or like it's. It's your own small group, so to speak.
Jason Pettys | 00;02;11;03 | Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, it's you kind of have to definitely build it into the rhythms of life. I mean, I remember thinking about the, you know, the Old Testament believers were supposed to put the law, you know, talk about it at specific times in the day and hold it a different spots. And I kind of interpreted that more loosely as just try to build it into the rhythms of life.
Jason Pettys | 00;02;32;13 | So we try to read the Bible a lot of times after mealtimes or whatever, when the kids are growing up and and my wife is also it was pretty big into Bible memory and getting those Bible versus those little kids when their minds are like sponges. So. Yeah.
Laurie Lind | 00;02;47;04 | Mm hmm. And I can really see you and your wife. We've been in a small group together in your knowledge of scripture, both of you two is it's extensive and it's. It's enjoyable to really talk about the Bible and the Lord with you both. So prior to the year 2021, there's a reason for this question, but up until the year 2020, what experiences have you had in small group Bible studies?
Jason Pettys | 00;03;15;21 | Trying to think back. There's so many different kinds of experiences from being in college, small groups, and that's a whole different dynamic and different college. Small groups have a completely different dynamic. And I was in, you know, quite a few of those. Then you get into young adult or married, you know, married couples was Bible studies and those would have another dynamic.
Jason Pettys | 00;03;35;00 | And I would say, you know, before right before 2020, we were had been leading a small group for a number of years. And we have those more group discussions. I would think I'm I kind of maybe lead into some of that. What I, you know, some of the weaknesses of leading those groups that really when I heard about what the F r l program was about, it was really appealing to me because, you know, you have those there's so many group dynamics going on.
Jason Pettys | 00;04;01;10 | And how do you we got into a group where everybody was an introvert except my wife. And it was amazing when you you get a whole bunch of people around and and you ask a question. It's just crickets for a long time, you know, and then and trying to ask the questions, then learn how to ask the questions that will get the conversation going.
Jason Pettys | 00;04;21;25 | Because, you know, these introverts, their minds are going really well. And there's a lot of really good stuff that they've got to share, but you got to get them out and that's that can be a real challenge to get that to get that going. And so I would say that would be part of the experience. And then someone might come into the group who might have the tendency to talk more than everybody else and then not give the introverts a room.
Jason Pettys | 00;04;48;09 | And so you see how those dynamics going on. And without really studying them or when I say studying, that sounds a little bit more to get the collegiate right. I mean, it's more just giving some attention to those. And that's I mean, I'm dumping into some of the things that when the Farrell program takes you into those things like Here's what's going on, here's how this can go here.
Jason Pettys | 00;05;10;26 | The dangers here are really good ways to work around these things and to deal with them.
Laurie Lind | 00;05;16;02 | I think we've all had experiences. We've been in a Bible study group where it's really awkward and nobody really knows if they're supposed to talk or not or how much are they supposed to talk, or are we all just going to read off what did you all right for? Question one okay. Now what should we all right for?
Laurie Lind | 00;05;32;27 | Question two if we have like this workbook or or, you know, I mean, just all kinds of different things happening small group to.
Jason Pettys | 00;05;41;08 | Throw some more examples from the you know, my one of my first church culture was very much more lecture oriented, right? So we get around for a Bible study and then it sounds like it's going to be a discussion and maybe it's a discussion for 5 minutes, but then someone just jumps in and just takes over and does the whole thing.
Jason Pettys | 00;05;58;26 | And I don't know if they realize they're doing it or if they think that no one else wants to say anything or what. And that can go crazy or or when people are leading studies and they're asking a question and you know that they have a very specific answer in time and it feels more like a a game of Trivial Pursuit than a game of like a discussion of let's study the Bible together.
Jason Pettys | 00;06;20;18 | And so that's all those little pitfalls of the the dynamics of conversations like that or we were one just recently a bunch of couples at a group and leaders like. Well, anybody have any questions? Nope. Moving on then. And I'm like, whoa. I mean, literally that was there was no pause there, man. Like it. Like no one's going to no one is ever going to feel that group unless like they're super extrovert and have a burning question, you know.
Laurie Lind | 00;06;50;03 | You don't want to interrupt when they don't particularly seem to want to hear the answer to does anyone have any more questions? So all right. We're already talking quite a bit about issues that can come up in small groups and so on. So in nine, in 2020, the year 2020, right smack in the middle of the peak of the pandemic, you took this interest training course that you referenced a few times by its initials.
Laurie Lind | 00;07;14;06 | It's called facilitating relational learning. And we shortened that all the time to f, r, l, first of all, it was of course, it was just awful right in the middle of pandemic. We won't get into all of that. But what prompted you to sign up for that training ahead of time?
Jason Pettys | 00;07;32;04 | You know, I wish I could remember exactly what it was. There was something about the description of it that it seemed to just like be right on the nose with some of the things that we've been talking about, about the common problems that usually come up in a small group dynamic. And then also like at the same time of putting its finger on those problems, it was also putting its finger on it.
Jason Pettys | 00;07;56;21 | It was very even just in the descriptions of the interim material that I got, it was very descriptive of like, here's how we're going to address those things. And also saying these small group things are super important to spiritual growth and discipleship. And so how do we leverage these emotions? And so when I saw that, I thought, this is one of the main things that I think God personally has called me to do is to to be involved in this kind of small group leading.
Jason Pettys | 00;08;23;19 | And this seems like the way to learn how to do it better.
Laurie Lind | 00;08;29;13 | All right. So you saw that, you signed up, you came to this. It was an in-person intensive format, which was like every day, pretty much all day for I don't know, six or six and a half, maybe seven days. I don't recall exactly.
Jason Pettys | 00;08;44;11 | Did we do it on the weekends? I feel like it was like two weekends in a row. It was like maybe Friday through Sunday, twice in two weeks.
Laurie Lind | 00;08;50;19 | Oh, maybe that is. We might have done it like that, like a split intensive, we call that. And we had a couple of days off in the middle too.
Jason Pettys | 00;08;57;13 | And don't forget the pre meeting homework. There's quite a bit of going through that workbook ahead of time and but it was that was so it was it was definitely I mean I didn't take it lightly. So I don't just jump into all these things when I saw the amount of work that would go into it or what did they say it was a 30 or 40 hours of work they recommend before the class starts just on your own.
Jason Pettys | 00;09;19;17 | Going through the workbook, which sounds like a lot, but it's super valuable stuff. I mean, I found it just really intriguing and and helpful, helpful to go through. So it's it was a big commitment and I didn't I don't just jump into I don't I can't think of anything I've jumped into like that. That was that. But I but it was this one was the one that it was just so appealing and seemed right on point.
Jason Pettys | 00;09;44;20 | So that's I jumped in and really glad I did.
Laurie Lind | 00;09;48;12 | So now to those that are listening and we've kind of given little hints and pieces about it, but how would you describe to someone what facilitating relational learning is all about.
Jason Pettys | 00;10;01;17 | To try to summarize what it's all about, you know, to the part that the parts that really stuck with me, I think, were how to ask open questions. And that sounds really like, you know, you can read a five minute article about how to do that, but it's actually really hard to do to ask truly open questions and not think about in terms like, I mean, you can ask an open question about how you're, you know, a stranger and ask them open questions about their life.
Jason Pettys | 00;10;26;14 | That's not hard. But like, if you have a text of of scripture that you're studying, you know, you think of a ten verse section and how are you going to go through that? And ask open questions about that? And I think that there's a pattern that comes up in Scripture. All the people who want to teach other people how to study, there's this pattern that always comes up is that is first you want to spend a lot of time observing and then interpret and then apply.
Jason Pettys | 00;10;54;19 | And the observation is super important upfront because here's because maybe people who have been in small groups will identify with us. If you start with very open questions that are not observational questions, then you'll get such strange answers and people will be flying all over the place just with whatever comes to mind from Oh, I saw the word hope in that passage.
Jason Pettys | 00;11;18;11 | I'm really hopeful about this or that. And it's like, Well, that's not what the passage is about. And so with the F, r, l plans, this is like, okay, here's how you deal with that and you do it. So this never this doesn't this was very unlikely to happen. If first you ask open questions, that can be answered from the passage itself.
Jason Pettys | 00;11;36;13 | So when I ask the question, everyone's going to be looking down at the passage to say, okay, where is the answer in the passage? And ask after you ask a few of those. Now they've got that passage in their brain and it's there are a lot less likely to go off track, but you want to make sure they're not trivia questions.
Jason Pettys | 00;11;51;15 | Like I said earlier, you know, these are not questions where there's one pat answer the thing and that's it's and and f what what what f r allowed you to do it would say, okay, here's how you do it. You're like, Oh, okay, I think I got it. And then it says, okay, now do it. Pick a passage and do it.
Jason Pettys | 00;12;06;17 | And now you're going to do a small group in this right now with everybody doing it. And then we're going to critique you and say, did that was that an open question or not? You know, and so now and then you do that, I don't know, a half a dozen times what you're doing it. Everybody else is doing it.
Jason Pettys | 00;12;21;27 | And you finally get it in green because it's so easy when you learn something like it was like, oh, like open questions. But if you've got a go to style that you're going to fall back to that. Unless you have this for me anyway, to have this intensive focus on, do it now. Do it again and do it again and do it again.
Jason Pettys | 00;12;37;02 | To finally kind of gets ingrained. And that's now my go to way of doing it, you know. So I would say, I mean, there's a whole lot of other things that go with that. And I mean, I'm just kind of tapping, just touching on a few points and there's a few super important points about the whole thing that I'm not even touching on at all about the, you know, the group dynamics about how do you deal with introverts and extroverts and get help people who are to balance out the amount of time participation.
Jason Pettys | 00;13;05;05 | Because everybody we want everyone to say things. How do you make it so you're not the center of the thing of the attention, like it's not a hub in a spoke, but because you want the people talking to each other, not just answering your questions back to you again and how do you do those kind of things. So it's just and hopefully it was throwing out enough things there that the people who are listening can get a sense in something about all of those things will resonate those with a that help to see the value of of the module.
Laurie Lind | 00;13;32;03 | Wow you just said a lot of things that are really right on about what the module is all about. And yes, I mean, there is a lot about that inductive Bible study format, observation, interpretation, application and kind of how to put a lesson together. And then it is so interactive each participant actually practices, I believe it's three times during the course of the the days that you're meeting and each time we all evaluate one another and you know, what did you do well and what might you do different?
Laurie Lind | 00;14;04;03 | And each time, you know, you when you do anything, you sing a solo or write a book or whatever, people can say, Well, you know, your technique, you did this pretty well, but there's a little different way you might try that next time. And sure enough, there's something you're not even aware of. And so I think that's nice to the feedback in the interaction.
Jason Pettys | 00;14;24;01 | It was really interesting. So I brought this idea of feedback up to someone else the other day about, hey, you know, and we were sharing together about, you know, the Scripture thing and then it'd be nice if we just said, you know, like if someone's going to give a little devotional or something, right, say, and we want to get better at it, then maybe we just say, Hey, do everyone share what it was?
Jason Pettys | 00;14;42;13 | What's one thing you liked about the devotional? One thing you didn't like? It could have been better about the devotional. I said that in this gentleman is he like froze the idea of criticism coming like he would never voluntarily participate in that. So it can kind of free people out. And so if if you're one who's kind of getting like when Laurie says about about the R that, you know, you're going to get to have this feedback, you got to realize you're dealing with people who are pros at this technique and they are really because we don't like it's not the point is not to make people feel uncomfortable or worthless and they're like super
Jason Pettys | 00;15;19;16 | good at leading you through that in a way that's helpful, but full of grace at the same full of both grace and truth, just like the Lord. And it's it's challenge and just just being around people who can do that and letting that rub off on you for a little bit. So that's it's not even though it's taking that you're going through a getting critical feedback on a thing can be a little bit intimidating.
Jason Pettys | 00;15;43;23 | This is going to be the environment where it's got the most powerful combination of truthful feedback in a grace and reaffirming package.
Laurie Lind | 00;15;58;14 | That's a great way to say that. I love that. Yeah. And so the whole concept is learning how to facilitate a discussion, a Bible study in a relational manner, taking into account the group and and learning, learning that sticks for adults in particular, and always under the guidance of the Lord and the Holy Spirit, of course. So having said all that, I'm just putting thoughts into your head.
Laurie Lind | 00;16;25;18 | But Jason, how has it impacted you or in what ways have you seen yourself maybe remembering something and applying it in some context?
Jason Pettys | 00;16;34;08 | Oh yeah. Anytime I'm leading a Bible study now, I try to start by and by actually writing down some observational questions about the passage to go through and making sure that they are open observational questions to start getting us grounded in the passage. I feel like it's heightened my awareness that to learn, I mean, there's there are little tricks that you could pick up on and how to do that and how to get people going and and to just be cognizant of that.
Jason Pettys | 00;17;07;07 | I think that's one way to put it into practice. The most. Another one that comes into my head a lot is my tendency is like if I'm going through a passage, I just want to I'm seeing really cool things. I just want to tell everybody, here's what it means and here's how it is and it's so cool. But then, I mean, there's a format for that.
Jason Pettys | 00;17;26;12 | There's a time to do the lecturing thing, but that's usually when not necessarily people are getting wanting to do in a small group, they want to what they want to interact. And so far l taught me how to like lead a Bible study in a way that I can still have the few comments that I really want to say, but it doesn't become a one way street.
Jason Pettys | 00;17;46;22 | And I still have lots of opportunities for other people to think to just to say their things. And it also taught me how to ask questions that leave the door open for the Holy Spirit to reveal to other people things that I've never seen before. And maybe the it takes the passage in a whole different way, but it's still based on the passage and it's still, you know, it's what the Lord wants to teach out of that passage in that moment.
Jason Pettys | 00;18;11;12 | And it was a little different than where I wanted to go and before I would have been really uncomfortable with that. Right? I'm just like I have a very specific thought in my head and my question would be very leading in that way. But when your questions are leading in that way, people sense that they know like he wants a specific answer.
Jason Pettys | 00;18;28;10 | And I don't know if I know what that answer is. And they shut down. And and so to be able to just change the style, to have an open dialog and lead an open day or facilitate an open dialog about the passage, it's when I got done with that that the first thing I thought everybody who leads a Bible study or a small group should do this because it I just I don't know if this is helpful to say, but then when you attend a study afterwards with people who aren't familiar with these principles, it's just so transparent.
Jason Pettys | 00;19;06;27 | And they'll ask a question and right away you're like, that question is not going anywhere that that is shutting everybody down, you know, and it's not going to work and and, you know, exact because you just get a sense of here are the dynamics at play here and how and once you see them, it's like it's almost like, I don't know, it's one of those things like it seems so obvious.
Jason Pettys | 00;19;28;23 | But, you know, obviously it wasn't obvious to me either before I took the class and I did the exact same things and got some of the same results but didn't see it. And anyway, it just turns a light on in a, in a great way.
Laurie Lind | 00;19;39;14 | Well, what would you say to someone, like I had said earlier in our conversation, that you really seem to have a wealth of knowledge about the Bible and your wife does as well. And and now you're talking about leading a Bible study and studying your passage ahead of time and writing questions. What would you say to the person who says, well, okay, I've never led a Bible study in my life and I don't feel like I know the Bible very well.
Laurie Lind | 00;20;04;26 | So whatever reason could I would there be any reason for me to take facilitating relational learning?
Jason Pettys | 00;20;13;20 | You know, yeah, I think that's interesting when you say it that way because I feel like you know, the the perspective I'm bringing to it is sort of aligned with my particular gifting. But I don't see anything in the class that is oriented toward a specific type of gifting or personality or characteristic, you know, for anybody to be able to just ask the questions and because we had some very quiet people in our R our group, you know, very introverted, you know, you're going to have us you're not going to be Mr. Charismatic when you're having a conversation.
Jason Pettys | 00;20;45;07 | Super smooth, but they were there and they were doing it. And you could it doesn't take much. I mean, if you ask just the right questions and then let the group run with it, you were just unlocking the, you know, the the gate and letting it go. And so I say it's it doesn't you don't have to be feel like you're gifted teacher or have a bunch of knowledge in those things.
Jason Pettys | 00;21;08;29 | And to just if you're assigned a passage and you go through it and you can kind of, okay, where do the sort of the observational questions to get this thing started? I'm going to ask ask them. And a lot of times for me, like the the Bible study prep then is basically I'll come up with six or seven questions to take us through the passage and that's it, that's it.
Jason Pettys | 00;21;28;17 | That's, that's what we're going to do. And it, it usually takes the whole time and sometimes a lot of things have to pick and choose because when you ask the right questions and start the conversations going and then the group is interacting with one another, hey, you just sit back and enjoy what the Lord is doing.
Laurie Lind | 00;21;45;21 | Mm hmm. And yet does that. You know, the fear I. I could have when I hear that is what is it? Just like a free for all, then? Like they everyone's just having a great time talking in response to those really good questions you asked. And then look at the time where it's time to go home, where where is the balance with.
Laurie Lind | 00;22;06;12 | But there is something that the passage is really teaching. You don't want it to just be this great conversation for the sake of a great conversation.
Jason Pettys | 00;22;16;18 | Yeah, that's a good point. And when I when I think about the six or seven questions now, those aren't just like six or seven. There's, those are six in when I'm doing it, it's usually six or seven questions in a progression. You know, the first one, two, three are going to be observational questions and then we get into more interpretive questions about, okay, what, what does that actually mean?
Jason Pettys | 00;22;38;20 | Why is that happening like that? And then you can move into how to we apply this or what is kind of the big take home from this whole thing. So, so in the questions, there is a journey that you're taking folks on and you might have to adapt a little bit as a conversation goes. But yeah, that's it's interesting.
Jason Pettys | 00;22;58;10 | I mean, when you put it that way, it's you're taking the group on a journey through this arc of observation, interpretation, application with, you know, some variations in there. But you can still do that with just a very little passion and leading here and there and end to end transitioning from one topic to the next and one question in the next.
Jason Pettys | 00;23;19;13 | Answer your question?
Laurie Lind | 00;23;20;18 | I think so, yeah. I think it's good to remember that it is. There is when you have those questions ready, you have really studied the passage, prayed over it, and you do have a thought of the direction. It seems the Lord would have you go with that passage. That is true to what the passage is about.
Jason Pettys | 00;23;40;18 | Right? Yeah. I mean, there's a whole I think it's toward the end, you know, you kind of have all of these pieces of the that the Farrell teaching put takes you through. And then one of the last ones is, okay, how do you put this all together into this? I don't know if they use can't use the word on lesson plan, but it's basically like, hey, here's how we're going to start.
Jason Pettys | 00;23;58;16 | We're going to start with a what do you call it, an introductory question, sort of an icebreaker question that but that relates to the passage and the teacher do that and then take it to the next section in the next section. And then, okay, what's the main point that you're wanting to get? And basically just give you a nice little package so that you can take a group through the passage in a meaningful way.
Jason Pettys | 00;24;21;16 | That stays true to the text of the passage.
Laurie Lind | 00;24;24;08 | So in and that's really important. We really want to know that we're remember, we're honoring scripture and the it is God inspired and we don't want to be making anything just what we want it. To me also this course is called facilitating relational learning. And that word relational can sound pretty touchy feely. And it's true that a lot of women have taken this actually all around the world, not as many men, but it's gaining some traction with men.
Laurie Lind | 00;24;54;02 | So what was the experience like for you, Jason, taking this module.
Jason Pettys | 00;24;58;26 | I'm yeah, that's interesting. I, I never looked at that way, I guess. I mean, there were, I was, there were guys and gals or gals and guys I thought it was in our, in our room. I thought it was fairly even. But I don't.
Laurie Lind | 00;25;15;00 | I think I think our group had a pretty good mix of men and women. But by far overall around the globe, thousands more women than men have taken this this course thus far. And time.
Jason Pettys | 00;25;30;15 | Interesting. I can't help but think that's too bad because I guess guys do this and I mean, probably I mean, there's a part of me that wants to say, you guys need it more than than than gals. But maybe that was probably not true because we just get different things out of it or men tend to have, you know, take things in different ways than women.
Jason Pettys | 00;25;51;27 | And we both need to sort of fine tune in on those things. I don't I didn't find anything about this that felt like it. I think I've told every guy that I've talked to, like, who does this thing, I was like, You should do this. I mean, you know, you're kind of I mean, to put it I don't know.
Jason Pettys | 00;26;12;02 | I don't want to discourage people. But it's like you don't say you're doing a bad job. You're doing what you can. Before, though, I didn't do a bad job of things before I did f rl but it it brings your game up in this to such a high level that like if you're if you're going to do some small groups or if you're doing small groups, this is going to be a super effective asset to making you more effective.
Jason Pettys | 00;26;37;05 | And yeah.
Laurie Lind | 00;26;39;03 | Well, Jason, it's really good to hear your perspective on all of this as a as a guy and having taken this in just the last couple of years and then put some of it into practice. So thanks for talking about facilitating relational learning with me. And is there anything else you would want any more questions? Oh, no. It was, you know.
Jason Pettys | 00;26;59;21 | Nice. Yes. You need a refresher, Laurie? That's what's going on. No, I really it was I think I, I hope that if, if this could encourage anyone to sign up for the class, I, that would be great. I hope that that is the result of this because I think it's it's a powerful tool put together by a very wise people trying to follow the Lord and and help people lead other people more effectively.
Jason Pettys | 00;27;24;20 | And it's a powerful tool and toolbox for that.
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;27;29;03 | You've been listening to Entrust Equipping Leaders, the podcast for Christian leaders, people who equip Christian leaders, and people who desire to grow in their Christian leadership skills. Jason Pettys and Laurie Lind discussed Entrust‘s flagship training module facilitating relational learning a.k.a FRL. Find out about FRL in today's show notes and join us next time when Jason turns the tables on Laurie and asks her some questions.
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;28;00;22 | See you then.
Guest Dr. Donald Guthrie on the learning theory known as constructivism.
Helpful links and resources
Dr. Guthrie's Equipping Christian Leaders article: https://www.entrust4.org/post/constructivism-gods-nature-and-human-agency-in-learning
Dr. Guthrie's book: Christian Higher Education: Faith, Teaching, and Learning in the Evangelical Tradition, Crossway, 2018
Entrust: https://www.entrust4.org
Transcript
Speaker Name | Start Time | Text
Todd | 00;00;08;00 | How does God use our human brains and our collective experiences in collaboration with His all knowing wisdom to help us learn? The answer might be found in a learning theory called Constructivism. It's a century old concept embraced by some, questioned by others. And today's Entrust Equipping Leaders podcast. Our host, Laurie Lind, chats with Dr. Donald Guthrie of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School about Constructivism.
Laurie Lind | 00;00;41;07 | Thank you, Todd, for that wonderful introduction. And today, I'm delighted to be able to introduce Dr. Donald Guthrie of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. Maybe we could start out with you telling us a bit about your background so we know on what basis you have authority to talk with us about Constructivism today.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;01;05;02 | Sure. Well, I'll go way back. I grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and eventually went to college and then to seminary actually here at Trinity and then back home to Pittsburgh, was in the local church ministry and then campus ministry as well as higher education. For many years, various capacities have been a professor now since the nineties and a couple of different places, including back here at Trinity as well as Covenant Seminary, a few other places to Constructivism was a part of my master's and doctoral experience in the universities I attended.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;01;54;23 | So I was exposed to it as a kind of a theory base in grad school and became interested in thinking Christianly about it, to see not just what it was, but to see if there was sort of redemptive value. I guess I would say that way with it. So that's a maybe a quick review of how did I get here to even think about this topic over the years?
Laurie Lind | 00;02;24;11 | That's very good to know. Yes, it's fed into who you are now. What are what do you teach or what? What are some of your roles at Trinity?
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;02;33;24 | Currently, I direct a Ph.D. program in educational Studies, which is a degree for people in higher education or the local church or nonprofit service. Some have all three of those. Wow. About half of our group is from all kinds of international contexts. So I direct that program. I'm executive director of something called the Center for Transformational Churches as well.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;03;02;17 | And we work with pastors and their families on issues of well-being and support for them in their ministries.
Laurie Lind | 00;03;14;04 | Now, my goodness, very important work, very complicated work, I'm sure. Mm hmm. And all of that very much. Then working with people who are going into education, you do think a lot about learning and how people learn. I'm sure. So our topic at hand today is quite a bit based on the article that you wrote for Entrust over a year ago, now called Constructivism God's Nature and Human Agency in Learning.
Laurie Lind | 00;03;44;07 | Fascinating already just to think about that, that title, how would you define constructivism?
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;03;51;19 | Well, as a learning as a learning theory, it's about creating meaning from experience. That's how you learn. You take whatever it is that's happening to you and you reflect and consider it, and that turns into your ongoing learning. In short.
Laurie Lind | 00;04;12;13 | Yes, that's very much in short. We'll get into it more. It's also a bit of a response, as you wrote in your article, to another concept, which was called Behaviorism. So how would you define that?
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;04;25;14 | Yeah, So so behaviorism is about learning again, but it's about behavioral change through external influences. So you might say behaviorism is more about what's happening to you and constructivism is more what's happening within you. And that's been a sort of an age old debate over the years. How does one develop? Is it more about what's happening in internally or externally on me?
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;05;02;09 | So the Constructivism is a bit of a that's why I wrote it's a bit of a response to behaviorism, which is kind of ruled the day for a long time.
Laurie Lind | 00;05;09;16 | And then you said you've really been learning to think Christian we about constructivism because I myself have encountered already people their hair kind of rises up when they hear this word in a Christian circle. Why are what are the criticisms from the Christian point of view of constructivism?
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;05;26;27 | Well, constructivism is about it's about making the person the center. Obviously, if you're making meaning and that's sort of the goal of all learning, then it's about you. So the the Christian would be rightly alarmed or disturbed or bothered by making anything about the person rather than the Lord. And our response to the Lord. So there's that. That's sort of a criticism.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;05;59;17 | And others just say it's just in general to relativistic. It doesn't have a it doesn't have a wall against which to push because whatever meaning you make is whatever meaning you make. So go for it. And another another criticism that kind of moves beyond a Christian criticism would be it doesn't necessarily that it's constructivism. It does not account for power differences.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;06;31;19 | So at the end of the day, if I have more power than you, my meaning matters more than yours, to put it that way. And it doesn't necessarily account for that. My influence, my capacity to exert whatever power I have, whether it's positional or relational, it just doesn't account for that. It just is. It's my meaning and your meaning.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;06;53;17 | But at the end of day, somebody's meaning is going to matter more. So lots of folks have critiqued it for that lack of accounting. There's a there's a criticism about transfer of learning, a learning as you might, you might say, is all about transfer. It's all about I learn things in a particular context all the time, of course.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;07;19;22 | But what is it mean to move it from here to here and from here to here? Constructivism doesn't necessarily account for that, and especially for the folks who are keen on learning transfer. They want to hear more about that.
Laurie Lind | 00;07;39;00 | About how the learning really transfer going to get.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;07;41;26 | From here to there. Yeah, that's right. So those are a couple of I would say a couple of well-known and pretty pretty widely discussed criticisms, both, as I say, from from Christians and people who are necessarily critiquing it from Christian perspective.
Laurie Lind | 00;07;58;07 | Sure. You know, when you mentioned that about power, that made me think, though, like, say, for example, if I'm a student in your one of your classes at the seminary, your power is that of the professor. You're the teacher.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;08;11;19 | Yes.
Laurie Lind | 00;08;12;01 | Would be possible in constructivist learning that I would listen to you. I would learn from you. I would receive what you said. And I might repeat back to you what you want to hear, because you have the power, so to speak, and and write an essay and write a paper and a thesis, whatever, and pass your class. But then go on and in my own say, well, actually I don't think any of that's true, but I just said it because that's what Dr. Guthrie wanted me to say.
Laurie Lind | 00;08;38;19 | Might that happen? And then maybe. What does that mean? Does that mean? I know for.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;08;41;23 | Sure, because as you know, in many contexts in the world, what the teacher says is everything. It's the beginning, middle and end of everything of the lesson. Mm hmm. So the student feels pressure, whether exerted or not, by the teacher, the context itself, the culture might say, yeah, you, you have to follow whatever the teacher says. So there's no meaning making, there's no ownership, there's no agency on the part of the student.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;09;14;02 | It's just repeating and reflecting back, like you said, what the teacher says. So that's anything but constructivism.
Laurie Lind | 00;09;22;28 | Because learning has not really occurred in that case.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;09;27;16 | No, because the student did not take the material and take it into themselves and say, okay, here's how I think about it. Here's how I own this, here's my perspective on this. After some further study and reflection that that's more Constructivism is interested in is how you make the learning your own.
Laurie Lind | 00;09;47;10 | So, I mean, when we talk about people making meaning, it does even for me now, it raises some like I get thinking of find your truth in all of these somewhat optimistic statements we hear in the world around us how does how does this all fit together from a Christian point of view?
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;10;08;02 | Well, I'd say first from a from a non-Christian point of view, it's education theory version of that. It's education theory version of Oprah's version of Fletcher.
Laurie Lind | 00;10;20;24 | But about having said the name, that's exactly who I was thinking.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;10;23;26 | Oh, well, I mean that. Yeah, that's. That's helpful to. To remember that. Mm hmm. It's more of a of a sophisticated learning theory that does, again, on the upside, it it tries to elevate the students agency to learn something and actually actually learn something. And actually own it and actually mean something to the person. That's the upside. But without any sort of boundaries or direction or telos point, it just sort of begins and ends there.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;10;59;05 | So it's like I said earlier, it's rightly to be critiqued and examined because if that's all it is, then it's just sort of another secular theory that makes you the center.
Laurie Lind | 00;11;11;22 | What does Telos mean, by the way.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;11;13;26 | End? What's the end? What's the goal toward which you are in this case, towards which you are learning and which in some ways really evaluates what you learn against the standard in pure Constructivism? The standard is, you know, and to whatever degree that you make the meaning you're making sort of from nothing into something. But it's all about your worldview and your and your own.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;11;46;13 | You yourself being the end.
Laurie Lind | 00;11;48;19 | All right. Well, that definitely goes counter to anything that a Christian would say, because we would have there's a standard. There is truth. Whether I think I made that truth or not, it has nothing to do with the story. So how can a Christian embrace constructivism then?
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;12;07;22 | Yeah, well, I mean, the the short answer is with a lot of care, a lot of reflection on the scripture. That's why I think in the article I mentioned Psalm 111, because I think, yes, that's one place among many. But but one place that kind of puts everybody in their place. So put it that way, God made everything and invites his people to explore what he made.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;12;34;29 | And that's this verse two of Psalm 111 Great of the works of the Lord study by all who delight in them. So it put it puts me the Christian you the Christian in response mode to the Creator God who made everything but this amazing creator. God invites his people to delight in opening up the things that He made and the ways he made things.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;13;01;07 | So we we actually use this this whole song, but especially that verse. It's kind of a jump off point for lots and lots of discussions here at Trinity in our program as a way of saying, Look, the Lord is so kind and is so generous and is so awesome that He invites us into his creation of all things so that we can, you might say, make meaning after him and the other reason why you and I can make meaning is because God is the one who speaks meaning into everything.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;13;40;18 | So that's why that's why it's possible with with with considerable considerable reflection, considerable inclusion of Scripture like this as an example, but that I can say and encourage Christians say, well, let's think about constructivism, not pure theoretical constructivism, which starts with nothing and ends with you, but what starts with God and ends with delight in the Lord. That's way better for you, starting from nowhere and going to me infinitely better, obviously.
Laurie Lind | 00;14;24;04 | Oh, it all that all sounds ever so much more inviting. And so, yeah, if we are, for example, if we're studying a passage of Scripture together, we would believe there is God had a meaning when He wrote, when he gave us this chapter, this book of the Bible, it means something to him. I'm seeking to make meaning of it for myself.
Laurie Lind | 00;14;48;24 | That doesn't mean that my meaning can be different from your meaning or can, as I incorporate my experiences in life and what I've learned through life. And you do as well. Might we arrive at slightly different conclusions and but then are we violating the intent of Scripture?
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;15;07;23 | So so that actually that's a good that's a good reason why we should study the scripture together and not just by ourselves. I mean, I think I think seeing the Scripture personally with Lord's, that's fine. But it shouldn't only be that because because the take away often from Scripture and in our history in the church for the last while is what does this text mean to me?
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;15;34;00 | Well, that's a good question. That's fine. There's nothing wrong, but it's got to move beyond the two and get to the fore because the for the for implicates me. You see, if I just say what does this text mean to me, I can keep the text at arm's length. But if I start asking what is a sex mean for me now I have some response that's called for.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;15;58;22 | Okay, what if I say in my just for example, in my small group, what if I say, What does this text mean for us? And I take it even beyond the two to the four, but I take it from the me to the US. Well, now you've built in the. Okay, let's all gather around the scripture. Let's all ask one another.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;16;19;16 | Where do we see this in the text? Let's all do the homework necessary. Let's all encourage each other as we gather around the Scripture, and then let's all say, how are we all implicated now together? Because how else do you apply Scripture but within it and out of the body of Christ? I think that's the that's both the check, but also sort of a launchpad.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;16;43;21 | It's kind of both. And to keep me from sort of crazy notions of what I see in the Scripture, but also it keeps me from saying I can just know this in my head and then I'm done, keeps me from both of those things.
Laurie Lind | 00;16;55;24 | Yeah, you can only apply anything in, in community and.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;16;59;21 | Pretty much.
Laurie Lind | 00;17;01;01 | You gave a such a good definition in your article for what you said could be a Christian constructivist view that was taken from your book, actually, which we do want to reference your 2018 faith in teaching you. You talked about Christian constructivism. Tell us what you said about that. And then kind of.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;17;23;22 | I said it's it's collaborative investigation. So it's what I just mentioned about doing this together more often than not. And that leads to practiced wisdom. So again, it's more than just what's in my head, but it's practiced wisdom. It's always under the triune God's care. So it places me in relationship with the Lord appropriately, and then it gives me that telos again.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;17;48;08 | It's for the sake of others. So the the key is I am not the end of my own learning as a Christian. I am not real. I'm not the end of anything. The Lord is the end of everything. I'm not the end of anything, but I am not certainly the end of my own learning. I'm not the end of my own investigation.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;18;08;23 | I'm not the end of my own salvation. It's all it's all to be received with gratitude and then stewarded well, responsibly to the glory of God and the well-being of my neighbor. So that's what I was trying to get at with. Well, what, what, what is it that this this approach to learning is supposed to be about? But then also, what's the fruit of it?
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;18;39;25 | So it's kind of both end and you can't you can't really talk about one without the other because if you if you just kind of stop, then you're not done yet, I guess, as before.
Laurie Lind | 00;18;47;02 | What about when we think about Jesus, we know he used so many different approaches to teaching groups and small groups. Do you see some examples of constructivism in his teaching?
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;18;58;06 | Yeah, I mean, obviously really cautious. You can't you can't overlay a contemporary learning theory on Jesus. He transcends all that. Yes. But on the other hand, he knows he knows whom he's made. He knows how he's made us. He sometimes I think you could say he takes our agency more seriously than we do. I mean, he gives people for stuff to do.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;19;24;03 | He he when he commands people and he advise people, he expects response. He expects people to move and act and do stuff. And I think I think that's that's again, that's the upside of what the Constructivists are after that Jesus knows way better than any constructivist because he knows whom he's made. And he knows that when we act responsibly in his name, in the power of this Holy Spirit, that I would point to John 15 and John's account there of Jesus talking about fruit bearing and abiding in him, and there's going to be suffering, but there's also going to be joy.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;20;10;13 | I just I don't see how you can have joy and abundance and fruit bearing and everything else he talks about there. Jesus better be there somewhere because that's a whole that's a whole bunch of stuff going on at one place. And yet thanks be to God there is Jesus. I mean, the abiding in him is at the core, and that's what makes all of the other things possible.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;20;37;15 | And he would even say fruitful, I guess, without the the unnecessary overlay onto Jesus, which you can't you can't do that. But you can observe Jesus in his interactions with folks sitting home. My goodness, he he really takes people seriously. I mean, when he's engaging people, he's actually expecting them to engage back spine back to him, particularly. I just find that very encouraging.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;21;06;27 | I think I just appreciate how the Lord challenges, enables, encourages, expects. It's just like super engagement. It's just it's just great.
Laurie Lind | 00;21;23;23 | And he has not only did he just teach like information transfer only when he did he talked, he'd spoke to people at great length, but then he gave his disciples assignments physically go, Oh.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;21;37;12 | Yeah, all the time.
Laurie Lind | 00;21;38;13 | And water and catch a fish or throw the net on the other side, or you'll go see how many loaves of bread everybody like all of those things might add. Would that be a constructivist thing there? Adding the disciples might be adding meaning to what they heard Jesus say?
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;21;54;00 | Well, yes, it was especially important because he knew, even though they did not, but he knew that there was coming a time when he would be gone, that he'd be studying the spirit and they were the plan. They were the plan? Yeah. As crazy as that would sound to them and to us. Right. They they were the plan.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;22;16;13 | It's not like they were plan B. They were the plan. So he knew that. He knew all of those conversations and all of that come with me and all that. Be with me and all that. Watch me and you do some stuff and then we'll debrief, rinse and repeat around and around and around. He knew that was really great.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;22;32;21 | Preparation for all was coming, even though they didn't. But they knew soon enough. I mean, after a relatively brief amount of time, they came to know soon enough, Oh, we're, we're now the arms and legs and feet and mouth Jesus. So he knew that. And I think he I think he you might say he taught with that in mind.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;22;56;14 | He modeled with that in mind.
Laurie Lind | 00;22;58;10 | I'm sure, too. Like after he was gone, I was just reading an ax today about the apostles are suddenly speaking to someone and saying, in the name of Jesus Christ, rise up and walk. Jesus had talked about being the life and the way and the truth. And then they'd seen him be raised and heel and somehow they had both seen and heard and now they knew how to apply that.
Laurie Lind | 00;23;25;06 | Now maybe I'm making too much of that. And I know there's that's maybe not the best example.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;23;30;06 | But I don't know. But but what the what the key was that they understood was they weren't Jesus, but they ministered in his name. And they also knew that if they strayed from ministering his name, it was all gone now. So they knew that they had been sent. They knew in whose name they ministered. They knew the commission they were on lots to learn from there in that process.
Laurie Lind | 00;23;56;06 | So then also in your article, you wrote that discovery, learning and meaning Making and be Christ honoring complements to approaches of Grounded that are grounded in Scripture. Can you elaborate on that some more? What you mean by that.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;24;12;11 | Scripture Scriptures got to be first and foremost, it has to be the authority. It has to be the God has to be the the primary text. You might say, go back to putting this in learning lingo. Hmm. And and as you work that out and as you iterate that out and I should say quickly, iteration is is not repetition, iterate is repetition with reflection.
Laurie Lind | 00;24;45;17 | Okay?
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;24;46;19 | So iteration is really a key both to the constructivist and to the Christian, the constructivist, because you you do not expect to learn the thing, do the thing, understand the thing the first time. You have to try and try and get some feedback, try get some feedback, try get some feedback. That's how we learn how to do anything.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;25;13;05 | So it's it's baked in. It's baked into the method, it's baked into the theory, it's baked into human beings because that's how we've all learned how to do everything from walking to Bible study and everything in between. So repetition is a good place to start, but you can't stop there. You have to you have to add reflection. And that sort of turns repetition into iteration and iteration is this amazing process of not just doing the same thing over and over again, but infusing your tries, your attempts with feedback, reflection, prayer.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;25;54;11 | So the whole process becomes much thicker, much stronger than just I'm going to try the same thing over and over again.
Laurie Lind | 00;26;01;09 | You also mentioned collaborative meaning making.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;26;05;00 | Huh?
Laurie Lind | 00;26;05;18 | How do we incorporate that or how do we know when that is taking place in learning?
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;26;10;24 | Yeah, so there's a has been for some time. There's a whole theory base that talks about collaborative meaning, making, and it often is in a group of theory and practice called Communities of Practice. So that when you get people to have common interests and some opportunity and some resource, they have some purpose and direction that can turn into a community of practice, or at least a community of learning that's pursuing something that they that they want to have in common, that they want to get to the end of.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;26;51;15 | So collaborative meaning making is often situated in that world. It doesn't only have to be in that world, but that's that's where it often finds itself. But back to our conversation earlier when we were talking about, say, small group Bible study, a general body life in the church. To me, that's a that's an obvious place to think about collaborative meaning making, you might say, in the name of Jesus around the scripture sent forth to figure out what we're doing in the world.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;27;23;28 | The second thing I'd say about that is it could mean for Christians, it could mean gathering folks together who have similar vocational interests and who want to explore together. Their professional identities are evidently increased, but their professional identities in a way that helps them understand well what does it mean that I'm a Christian and I'm thinking I go in my day job, I'm in the business world, I'm a nurse, I'm in construction, I'm doing whatever I'm doing.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;27;56;24 | So it could go there, too. If you go there, too.
Laurie Lind | 00;28;00;17 | Well, then you know, all this theory in this philosophy and we so you sort of mentioned about just a real life context, but how do you really see constructivist understandings of learning, serving the purposes of the local church?
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;28;16;15 | I think as we gather God's people and as we gather as God's people, we have amazing opportunities to help one another mature in Christ. Big picture at Worship Bible Study at work during the week in community. Jesus Christ is Lord everywhere, So every place is potential curriculum, I guess, is how you put it.
Laurie Lind | 00;28;44;23 | Yeah.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;28;45;14 | For Jesus, the creation was curriculum because he made it all. So it was all in. Mm hmm. I think we can learn a lot from that. I think we can learn a lot from expanding our sanctify and imaginations to think about. Okay, well, what would be most helpful to us to spur one another on to love and good deeds, as the Scripture says, to spur one another on, to become mature in Christ?
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;29;08;19 | I mean, a couple of things I thought about a particularly a local church. What if we had more occasion not just to study scripture together, which we do, but to study case studies in the Scripture together and study case studies in our everyday lives together with the mind of Christ that would bring the eternal truth of the Scripture to bear on my daily life.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;29;36;26 | I'm going into doing a series at my local church on conversations, which sounds pretty ordinary, and that's the point of conversations every day. Yeah. What does that mean? What does it mean to learn from the Scripture about how we talk and or the tone with which we talk? How do we address one another? What's our goal when we're talking?
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;29;58;19 | Are we listening for advantage so I can win in my listening to understand, so I can serve. So something as mundane as conversation. Everyday life with coworkers, with family, with friends, with neighbors, with the Lord in prayer. We can help each other learn how to do that better because that's part of our maturity in Christ. So that's a pretty concrete example of what this could look like, I would say in our everyday life together of doing life together as Christians, as we're as we're developing growing suffering, as we're comforting one another, praying for one another, but also seeing the Lord at work in our midst as well.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;30;41;25 | Another thing I thought about was manuscript Bible studies and investigative Bible studies are something I'm old enough to remember. Yes. I don't know. Honestly, I don't know for the life of me. Why? Why? They just don't seem to be as utilized these days. That's a mystery to me. In my young adult years, I'll say that. And on into adulthood, they just kind of were the norm.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;31;13;15 | You invite your friends Christians and not gather around. Manuscript studies, really dive into the word. Everybody does homework. Sometimes the non-Christians that I was with, they'd be the better observers and the Christians. It's a word. You can't say that that's not in the Bible. And they're the ones trying to figure out what it means. They don't know what it means yet.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;31;32;05 | So I wonder if we could I wonder if we could revisit some of those options so that when people in God's kindness, he draws them to himself and they become Christians, they think this is normal. They think it's normal to huddle around this, the Scripture, because that's what they were doing before they were Christians. Strangely, with us. So they they continue to grow in Christ around the Scripture together.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;31;57;09 | They're never going to know a time when they weren't doing this. They were making meaning of the text with the spirit as the guide. Yes, that'd be terrific, wouldn't it?
Laurie Lind | 00;32;08;14 | It would. Oh, well, then we have about 4 minutes left. Okay. In terms then, of equipping next generations of leaders like you are doing at seminary, and then trust comes alongside people, sometimes in quite non-formal ways. How do we best or how might we best incorporate constructivist thinking in how we're equipping men and women to be the next generation of leaders for the local church?
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;32;35;08 | Well, I guess I guess I want to recover more of a come with me both mindset and also activity. I personally just resolved a long time ago because of the end of my own discipleship that I enjoyed. And really I'm grateful for. I just went around a lot with the folks who poured themselves into me, and I learned a lot from just watching and listening and then debriefing and I back to what we observe with the Lord Jesus.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;33;13;19 | And he did a lot of that. Yes, He did a lot of come, come with me. The disciples do. Where are we going? Well, you're with me, so it's okay. We're not. We're not Jesus. No, but he goes worse.
Laurie Lind | 00;33;25;28 | That's right.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;33;27;05 | So when we say, Come with me, it's just we're saying come with me as I go with Jesus. So there's a relational component. I hope that we can recover and even emphasize with younger folks. They are deeply desirous of relationships, not just with peers, as we're often told, but with older folk to. And I think adults really need to answer that call and come with me, learn from them to learn to weigh not just one way, but but be responsive and say come with me and have meals together and demonstrate hospitality to one another.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;34;09;25 | Recover the dining room table, not just out for a meal, which just that's fine too, but recover some of those. I would say long, long will serve practices and disciplines of body life, both for their benefit, but obviously also for our right.
Laurie Lind | 00;34;30;29 | It is collaborative. We are going to learn from one another in any it is like that.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;34;36;01 | It is. We can learn a lot from the the cultures in the world that are collectivist, that can and collaborative kind of built in here, the West. And I think that's one way we can we can learn and demonstrate that we are learning and it's just for our benefit in the Lord's glory.
Laurie Lind | 00;34;53;05 | Well, Dr. Guthrie, I want to thank you so much for your thoughts. I know we've barely scratched the surface, but people can read your article and they can find your book. We'll make sure that's all in our show notes. And bless you as you keep training men and women in ministry. And thank you for your time today.
Dr Donald Guthrie | 00;35;09;23 | Thanks so much, Laurie.
Todd | 00;35;11;19 | So what do you think? Do you agree with Dr. Guthrie? Do you see some ways to incorporate Constructivism into your leadership, your teaching, your facilitating? Talk it over with others and be sure to read Dr. Guthrie's article and other resources cited at the end of the article on our website. Thank you for listening to Entrust Equipping Leaders.
Links and resources
Alicia's Equipping Christian Leaders article https://www.entrust4.org/post/constructivism-an-entrust-perspective
Entrust https://www.entrust4.org/
Transcript
Speaker Name | Start Time | Text
Todd | 00;00;08;21 | Constructivism is a learning philosophy dealing with how people make meaning together. On today's podcast, Laurie Lind talks about Constructivism with Alicia Costello. Find out how Entrust incorporates some constructivist theories in its approach to leadership training. So without further ado, here are Laurie and Alicia.
Laurie Lind | 00;00;32;20 | Well, welcome back to another episode of Entrust Equipping Leaders. I’m Laurie and my wonderful guest today is Alicia Castello, currently working with Entrust and making some changes in her work as we speak. But Alicia, thanks for joining us today.
Alicia Costello | 00;00;50;14 | Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Laurie Lind | 00;00;56;25 | I really appreciate that. You wrote a wonderful article for our blog about this concept of constructivism within an adult education. And we'll get to that in a moment. But let's just start off with learning a bit more about you and who you are and your educational background.
Alicia Costello | 00;01;14;17 | Yes. So my educational background is pretty simple. I got a bachelor's degree in English. And then because you can't do anything with a bachelor's degree in English, I went and got a master's degree in English, and I really liked school at that point. I really, really, really was like, Oh, this college stuff is fun. And so I went back for my masters.
Alicia Costello | 00;01;33;26 | It was a blast. Highly recommended. Ten out of ten for anyone wondering. And I loved English was not. I've always figured I would be a teacher. I always figure that I would go into some kind of teaching profession, but that really wasn't my focus necessarily. And so as I was going into this, I wasn't setting out to say, How can I teach this in the future?
Alicia Costello | 00;02;01;10 | I was just like, I really like this and I'm going to keep taking these classes and probably I'll end up teaching. And so that's kind of what happened. During my master's degree, I got a job as a high school teacher. It was kind of a mid-season replacement for a school in our area that needed a high school English teacher quick.
Alicia Costello | 00;02;21;28 | And so I was teaching high school English, and then they brought me back for a full year teaching high school English, plus a few other things. It was one of those small private Christian schools, and I taught about seven different classes.
Alicia Costello | 00;02;37;16 | And then I got out of high school teaching, finished the master's, graduated, went into ministry for about eight years, which is a full education on itself. And then I stopped doing ministry and went into teaching college. So teaching a primarily community college. So having some students who are 16 and in dual credit classes, some students who are 46 and returning to school and the whole gamut of that.
Alicia Costello | 00;03;15;06 | So it's been super exciting. Do I think my education prepared me for that? Probably not, but I've learned a lot along the way. I guess maybe it did because it taught me how to research. And now any time I need to learn something, I just research the heck out of it. So.
Laurie Lind | 00;03;32;26 | Ha! So what kind of classes were you teaching at that college level?
Alicia Costello | 00;03;38;28 | At the college level. I taught English at 1301 and 1302. So you're kind of standard level English writing composition classes. And then I did teach one or two like literature based classes, which were great as well.
Laurie Lind | 00;03;55;03 | Wow. How fun. I mean, you hear about English teachers. Garrison Keillor used to talk about poem, the professional organization of English majors who never get jobs because there's not much to do with an English major. But you've been able to really use what you learned and what you love in. And then in all of that context, then how did you get involved with that trust?
Alicia Costello | 00;04;18;28 | Oh, it's actually a funny story. I was looking around, I had just gotten out of ministry and I was looking around and I was like, I really want to use my degree. I hadn't really been using it in ministry besides fixing everyone's commas. And so I went in and I was looking on Indeed.com, you know, good ole, indeed.
Alicia Costello | 00;04;39;12 | And I saw a in an advertisement for a curriculum writer, a job posting for interest. And I applied. And I think I filled out the online form that it said to fill out. And they called me and they were like, How did you hear about us? And I was like, Indeed.com. And they were like, We're on. Indeed. I didn't know that.
Alicia Costello | 00;05;04;26 | So I guess it made it sort of scoured the Internet for job postings, came across this one address and put it on its Web site. But interest had no idea. So I am kind of one of the only interest people, I think, that did not come from a previous relationship within, you know, with someone from within interest. So I knew no one when I got here.
Alicia Costello | 00;05;28;02 | And yeah, that's how I came involved with just going through the process and prayed a lot. And here I am.
Laurie Lind | 00;05;36;15 | That is amazing. I hadn't heard that before. And how you it would almost look like accidental, except we know it wasn't. You were meant to join us. I'm quite sure. So, like, so your background is in English and so on. Would you consider yourself more connected to education then, or more to communication in or both, or what?
Alicia Costello | 00;06;01;21 | I think communication is education, and I think education is communication. I don't think you can put one without the other. And I think especially where I think people run into issues is when we decide to put education in a box and we decide that education is only what we learn in school or what we can get a degree in or, you know, like the three R's, Free education means learning.
Alicia Costello | 00;06;31;29 | And hopefully that happens for your whole life, you know? We know that babies learn, but babies don't go to school, right? We also if we take if we think about education as it's what I learned in school or what I learn for a degree or my skills, we also cut out all social education, what I do and what I don't do, the etiquette, the morals, that kind of thing.
Alicia Costello | 00;06;58;07 | And the second we start to forget that we're in deep trouble. Hopefully you never also finish learning. You know, I. I remember talking to a mentor of mine and her seventies, and I was saying, you know, I'm like 30, but I feel young and dumb. And she goes, Honey, so do I. And I was like, Oh, okay, this doesn't go away.
Alicia Costello | 00;07;19;13 | Great. I'm always going to be learning, always going to be growing. And the second that I decide my education stops, then that's that's where we're in trouble.
Laurie Lind | 00;07;29;17 | That totally makes sense. Like, because when does if we really say, Well, now I'm done, I've learned everything there is to learn. Yeah, like you say, we're in trouble.
Alicia Costello | 00;07;38;17 | Yeah. Then we're just existing. And how boring is that?
Laurie Lind | 00;07;42;01 | Absolutely. No, we need to keep learning and growing. So as we get into this concept about constructive ism, this big, daunting word. So you did write an article, and it's paired with an article by Dr. Guthrie from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He gets into all the real academics of constructivism. But you did as well in your article, which I really appreciated.
Laurie Lind | 00;08;06;14 | But how would you define this educational theory called constructivism?
Alicia Costello | 00;08;12;21 | So Constructivism sort of posits or argues, and when I say argues, I don't mean two people yelling at each other, but in the academic, yeah, a theory will argue that learners will construct knowledge. They basically take in new knowledge and put it on top of that knowledge. Right? They're constructing this knowledge rather than passively like taking this in, memorizing it, that kind of thing.
Alicia Costello | 00;08;38;09 | And if you think about the word constructing, constructing means that you're building on something. There has to be some kind of existing foundation that you're building on top of. So not only are you learning new info, but you're actively building it on top of previous knowledge. So you're saying like, how could this fit into what I already have?
Alicia Costello | 00;08;58;28 | You inevitably are going to try to fit in that new knowledge with the preexisting knowledge or understanding it through a preexisting lens as things happen and you're learning from them. And what that really means is that knowledge is sort of deeply personal. Learning is deeply personal to the individual because each person is going to come in with their own kinds of foundations, right?
Alicia Costello | 00;09;25;09 | So they are going to actively be building on top of their own individual experience, and they're going to be taking different lessons and different emphasis from that new knowledge based on the old stuff that they've learned. So what one person is learning may not be what someone else is learning. The individual kind of makes their own knowledge as they're building on top in sort of seeing it through the different lenses that they're bringing to the table almost.
Alicia Costello | 00;09;53;28 | So Constructivism argues that learning happens. It's very individualistic that what one person is learning may not be what someone else is learning. And it also argues that it's building on top of previous knowledge. Those are kind of the two big takeaways.
Laurie Lind | 00;10;11;00 | And there definitely seem to make sense. In fact, as you describe it, it almost sounds to me like, well, why would we even call that a theory? Because it sounds like reality to me. But I imagine there are different thoughts about this. And you wrote in your article that constructivism was sort of developed or came into being as a reaction to kind of memorize and repeat type of learning.
Laurie Lind | 00;10;36;17 | What's the underlying assumption of that kind of thinking about learning?
Alicia Costello | 00;10;41;07 | Yeah, memorize and repeat is interesting. I actually don't hate it. It has its place. You know, at some point you have to remember that too, and to make for. And so I'm all about memorize and repeat in certain contexts, but it has kind of this big overarching flaw, which is that it kind of assumes assimilation. It assumes that everyone learns the same way.
Alicia Costello | 00;11;04;18 | If I say it enough times, it will get remembered. If I say this enough times, everyone will get the same answer. Everyone that they think that giving that the answer, I want means they learned it right and they assume that everyone will remember it. Maybe this one thing on top of this other thing and 99% in the time it's regulated, two things we learn in a classroom, right?
Alicia Costello | 00;11;26;27 | Two plus to make for that is education in the memorize and repeat kind of language. However, a constructivist understands that learning is social, and learning is not only what we learn in the classroom, but what we learn in our family dynamics, what we learn in our workplace. And and so you can't necessarily memorize that sort of interaction with that sort of learning.
Alicia Costello | 00;11;52;24 | So memorize and repeat. It's very focused on this one type is one way that's one type of person. So while it does again have its place, it just doesn't always it's not it's not as grand of a solution as constructivism is.
Laurie Lind | 00;12;10;24 | And I imagine that these are not the only two learning theories in existence. There probably are other thoughts about how people learn or approaches to education besides just these two extremes that we're talking about right here.
Alicia Costello | 00;12;26;14 | Oh, yes. And constructivism is a very wide spectrum. There are there are entire learning methods under constructivism. So this is just sort of an overarching kind of theory that is the big umbrella. And then underneath that you will get smaller umbrellas. I also want to say that memorize and repeat again. Well, it has its place. It's not a very good way to instill critical thinking in a person.
Alicia Costello | 00;12;53;13 | So if that is something that your culture really appreciates, it's not going to get you there. You know, I have heard stories of people learning languages and memorizing the words, but never really understanding what they mean. How then can you go and speak any other like, you know, how can you go and have any other conversation? Great. So it's a great way to make sure that everyone knows two plus two equals four.
Alicia Costello | 00;13;20;03 | But outside of that bound, it kind of breaks down a little.
Laurie Lind | 00;13;24;08 | Well, that's right. And you mentioned culture, and I think we can all think of certain cultures that seem to be more focused on, memorize and repeat as least list them. Maybe it's a stereotype, but I would think of certain ones and maybe some that would be more in favor of constructivist kind of learning. Do you think this these kind of learning styles can be part of our culture or should they be or what's what might be the best way to think of the interaction there?
Alicia Costello | 00;13;56;27 | I think they definitely can be part of our culture. Again, it's kind of a little bit comparing apples to oranges because memorize and repeat is such a narrow focus like it's only kind of in this one instance, this one classroom situation, this one thing. And constructivism is kind of about learning for your whole life, learning in the classroom and outside the classroom and in projects, and when you're a child and all this kind of thing.
Alicia Costello | 00;14;27;26 | So it's a little bit comparing apples to oranges. And I think you need both. I think we instinctively do both. I think these learning theories, just language around those phenomena. But yeah, I think that certain learning styles make sense inside certain cultures and like go them. I I'm a constructivist. As long as learning is happening, I'm happy.
Laurie Lind | 00;14;53;04 | So you did kind of mention the underlying assumptions of constructivism that we're building on whatever we have already experienced or learned. So this is let's take this over to some scripture. Would you be aware of any examples in the Bible of people learning through a constructivist approach?
Alicia Costello | 00;15;16;20 | So the first if I were to like pinpoint it, if it goes straight towards a Bible verse, I like to think of that scripture and I think it's Paul and I think it's more anchored. Then he says, I planted the seed Apollo Water did God made it grow, right? Because learning in the constructivist view is so individual that you're not the first person to teach them.
Alicia Costello | 00;15;42;07 | Two plus two equals four, right? That they will continue learning that two plus two equals four, Right? A constructivist is very interested in the learner's journey, and I think that really speaks to the learners journey. I think as Paul, you know, speaks about Timothy's mother and grandmother training him in the Lord, and he's just kind of like, I'm just building on top of what they taught you.
Alicia Costello | 00;16;06;19 | You know, I think that that is very that's very individualist centered and journey centered. Then I think that a constructivist would appreciate that, right? And then I'm thinking, like, as you know, the big question is like, is Jesus a constructivist right? This is when I go to sleep, think about it, and.
Laurie Lind | 00;16;25;15 | I'm sure you do. You just ponder it for hours at a time.
Alicia Costello | 00;16;28;28 | You got to think there's something, you know. And I'm thinking, you know, like with the public, he's talking parables. He is. I think, you know, kind of using Socratic method a little bit because that was available to him. And again, like how what learning style does a culture of in right And so this would be the most appropriate cultural learning for his audience.
Alicia Costello | 00;16;51;25 | But then I'm thinking, you know, Jesus taught the disciples by just saying come alongside me and watch. Right. The reason he had these small disciples is to just spend time with them. And so I think then Jesus really gets the fact that learning this social and the fact that there are journeys like he didn't pick one certain person from one certain, you know, the from one certain group.
Alicia Costello | 00;17;18;26 | He gathered an amalgamation of Jewish culture in that day and he said, okay, we're all going to come together. Everyone has their own foundation and we're going to build on top of that. So you have to think that there were fights and disagreements and arguments, not only the ones that are actually codified in Scripture, but like you have to think that like the zealot and the, you know, experiences yelling at each other few times.
Alicia Costello | 00;17;45;08 | And so I think that Jesus sort of used that constructivist approach maybe to teach socially with his social life, with his disciples. And I think he he brought them into ministry. And then he was like, okay, how are you going to solve this problem like we need to do? And I think that is very constructive is to just hand people a problem and say, Sort it out for yourselves and I'll just be here to help you along if you get stuck.
Laurie Lind | 00;18;11;29 | Mm hmm. Yeah. It seems like you can see a lot of examples of that with him just taking a basic thing that people would have already known, whether it was fishing or farming or tax collecting, and then talking about it expanding on it, letting them, like you say, solve some problems in interest. We talk about well, we just started talking about constructivism, as far as I know, but we used I've heard terms like discovery and learning and I've heard about, like you mentioned, Socratic method, which are all of those interchangeable terms when you say.
Alicia Costello | 00;18;46;08 | Now, I'm not an expert on all of the different ways I kind of see Socratic method. I've seen it, I've seen it happen a few different ways. When the teacher or the leader, the Socratic method is very much like, Oh, one minute I'm the teacher and I'm going to school this kid, right? I've seen it used very kind of domineering lately.
Alicia Costello | 00;19;11;17 | And so and sometimes they even, like, embarrass the student. And I don't love that aspect of Socratic method, but when it is to people just saying like, Hey, here's an idea and you have another idea and let's come to some third idea. I like I like that kind of Socratic. So I think it depends a lot on the person who is facilitating the Socratic method.
Alicia Costello | 00;19;33;16 | Discover and learning I think does comfortably kind of fit under constructivism. No, I'm not sure, especially just learning like how much the teacher or the leader. The titer is into that. I kind of picture a montessori school like wandering around and and discover things, right? Yeah. But I'm not sure how much of that plays into adult learning and child learning because they're very different.
Alicia Costello | 00;20;00;29 | Adults learn in very different ways. The children learn. So I don't I'm not sure about that. But I think discovery learning like does comfortably fit under Constructivism because you can say, you know, the the child, it's sort of individually based on the person and the person is adding new knowledge on top of old knowledge. So I like that.
Alicia Costello | 00;20;23;12 | I guess they all depend. I get really it all depends on the one in charge. Three.
Laurie Lind | 00;20;28;01 | Yeah. Yeah. How they approach it and yeah, what, what's their own attitude towards themself and their role. But you know when we talk about it's so individualistic and it's building on your own, begin whatever experiences you bring to the situation in a way that sounds a little bit wobbly to me. What if I enter this learning experience and my foundation is off kilter or, you know, way out somewhere?
Laurie Lind | 00;20;55;14 | My whole building is going to end up being quite unstable. How how do we avoid the danger of that in constructivist learning?
Alicia Costello | 00;21;05;27 | Well, a pure constructivist would say like, Yay, hurray, learning it's happening, we don't care. Right? But that I mean, constructivism is an educational theory, not a moral theory. Right? Right. Okay. So I think it is the teacher in a constructivist sort of context is the one I like to see myself as the one who drops bombs in the classroom and lets them figure it out.
Laurie Lind | 00;21;31;12 | Huh? Yeah.
Alicia Costello | 00;21;33;10 | So whether that, you know, as they're still trying to fit all of these things into their context, it's not like growing can still happen. It's, you know, I think part of learning and part of growing up is learning that, like, things aren't necessarily as black and white. They're more nuanced than you thought they were. And I think that still fits comfortably into constructivism.
Alicia Costello | 00;21;57;11 | You're not going to go in like everything is blue and you're just going to try to fit and argue about how red is blue, right? I think you're going to go in and learn like, oh, sometimes blue isn't as blue as I thought or sometimes this is and it's this. And a constructivist is like, Hurray, yay! Learning happened.
Alicia Costello | 00;22;16;22 | We are happy. Education has occurred. But that's really where the teacher comes in and just ask the right questions, asks, you know, the student to think it out. And I guess the Socratic method can come a little bit into play there. But yeah, so maybe not a question that constructivist ask them so.
Laurie Lind | 00;22;37;22 | Mm. Well because I can see you like you're saying, we probably do both if we're going to just say there are these two ends of the spectrum, memorize, repeat and constructivism. We do both all the time because if we just say Yeah, learning happens, you could learn anything. I mean, that's so nebulous, that is so wide open and memories and repeat does say that two plus two does equal four.
Laurie Lind | 00;23;05;11 | I mean, you could land somehow on some other formulation there, but it would not. There are is sometimes a correct answer or a correct direction to head. And so maybe the two types of learning or thinking need to temper one another would that be right? Yeah.
Alicia Costello | 00;23;22;29 | Yeah, definitely. That's why you need lots of you need multiple. Constructivism is the only way to go all the time. I'm not going to ask my kindergartner what he you know what he thinks two plus two is. Right. Well, I'm going to ask him, but then I'm go, No, it's four. It's four. I really, no matter if you say it's 32, it's really four, I promise you.
Alicia Costello | 00;23;44;17 | Yeah. But the you know, so I think it's just an amalgamation of all of these sort of phenomena happening together. Constructivist put language on a certain aspect of it. They're describing a certain kind of learning that's happening. They now, they described it with a really big umbrella that a lot of stuff fits under, but sometimes stuff doesn't, and that's okay.
Laurie Lind | 00;24;08;28 | Yeah. So now let's back up to and trust again. And you've been working with the UN Trusts Curriculum team. How long have you actually been working with Entrust?
Alicia Costello | 00;24;19;09 | Two years now to years.
Laurie Lind | 00;24;21;19 | And as we record this, I mean, by the time we released this episode all well, no, but you were going to be moving on from Entrust to do some additional creative work. And we're and I'm excited for you for that. So but within your two years at Entrust in Curriculum, what are some of the projects that you worked on or tasks that you accomplished?
Alicia Costello | 00;24;43;28 | Oh my goodness. Well, right now we're working on a little handbook, something I'm not sure format TBD, but we're working on how to have a conversation with difficult people or not how to have a difficult conversation with people.
Laurie Lind | 00;25;05;23 | The people on some difficult but the topics because. Right.
Alicia Costello | 00;25;09;07 | Every one is difficult. I'm difficult. They're difficult. Everyone. Yes. And then I've worked on several revisions. I worked on the Walking with Chrysler revision, written up numerous things like these articles, blog posts, worked on newsletters and things like that. So lots of different kinds of things. And I write it right, and I think I just said the word righted.
Alicia Costello | 00;25;40;29 | I mean, English for I'm an English teacher.
Laurie Lind | 00;25;44;09 | Well, we're so glad that you have wrote so many things for and trust you.
Alicia Costello | 00;25;48;26 | I had fun writing that writing experience.
Laurie Lind | 00;25;53;26 | So like you mentioned, revising, that's revising some of our training courses, different types of things. Have you incorporated any constructivist thinking in any of the projects that you've worked on for and trust?
Alicia Costello | 00;26;09;06 | I definitely think I have it and it helps me constructive is mindset helps me as I'm sitting in writing to to sort of get in the right position. I guess it doesn't. Nessus certainly dictate the words I'm going to type, but it helps me get into getting to what I call the right position, the right mindset, the right thinking, and what I mean by that is when I'm writing, if I'm thinking constructivist Lee, I guess it helps me not to harp on whether the participant will get the right answer, quote unquote, get the right answer.
Alicia Costello | 00;26;50;10 | I want them to get an answer that means something to them. I want them to connect to the material because again, like learning occurs when we are connecting it to all information. So I want that connection to happen and I want thinking and new answers to come out. I'm not so concerned most of the time. On whether they will get the quote unquote correct answer.
Laurie Lind | 00;27;19;01 | Yeah, And how do you go about achieving that goal?
Alicia Costello | 00;27;24;12 | I think it's in the way you write the questions. If we're talking discussion questions or reflection questions, I also think it's in the way that you sort of approach the material because I want that connection to happen first, and then I want to go into the materials. So now that my audience is connected, they're engaged and then they're as I'm writing or as I'm giving them new ideas, they are connecting it into what they are experiencing.
Alicia Costello | 00;27;59;22 | I'm also not trying. It helps me really stay away from leading questions. Right. And in I think it's ephemeral. We talk a lot about open questions versus leading questions, and so it helps me stay away from the leading question. And I find when I'm in that constructivist mindset that I write a lot more open questions and I try, I tend to not great as many leading questions when I'm really when I'm considering myself.
Alicia Costello | 00;28;26;09 | I am the expert, I am the teacher. You will learn from me. I am brilliant. I write a lot more leading questions.
Laurie Lind | 00;28;33;28 | MM And how would you define a leading question?
Alicia Costello | 00;28;38;11 | A leading question is one that you asked to get a, an answer that you're already thinking. That's right. So I'm asking them, but I don't really want their opinion. I want them to regurgitate it back to what I think is the correct answer to me. So I'm not really asking them to engage their brain, engage their creativity, engage their culture.
Alicia Costello | 00;29;05;05 | I'm asking them to repeat back that you pursue equals for. And while that can be helpful in maybe the beginning, right, we talk a lot about like the flow of the questions, why that may be helpful in the beginning. And I think you can still use a constructivist or beginning point to get to the same place.
Laurie Lind | 00;29;27;14 | Even at the beginning of a of a discussion like of a Bible passage.
Alicia Costello | 00;29;31;19 | Yes, I think there are ways that you can ask or focuses you can make that, you know, sometimes we have discussion leaders that will ask these very specific questions, and that's what they want. Like, oh, there's a group of ten answers that you might get, you know, or that you might give. But really, we're just looking for these ten.
Alicia Costello | 00;29;55;14 | And I think you can even employ constructivist thinking and that connection into your first few questions.
Laurie Lind | 00;30;03;22 | What's the advantage with the end result of using constructivist thinking in like structuring how you lead a Bible study or a Sunday school class or or whatever kind of teaching? Like it makes sense. The idea like I'm building on what I've already known and I'm adding and I'm thinking, But why? Why would it matter in the end to have helped your learners learn in that method?
Alicia Costello | 00;30;33;05 | First of all, I think the information really sticks more to the learner. Like let's just put the learner into that perspective. It makes because they have built it on top of a foundation they already have. It sticks more. It's relevant to them. It's not just remembering when the Civil War started, right, but it's actual things they might use.
Alicia Costello | 00;30;54;11 | And then I think, honestly, constructivism makes you a better teacher. Now, I know a lot of people, you know, listening to this might be leaders and they'd be like, What? What are you talking about? And I think constructivism, like as you are asking the questions, as you are discussing, as you're asking people to put new learning on top of old foundations, you are finding out what those old foundations are and so you are able to build off of those foundations.
Alicia Costello | 00;31;23;15 | First of all, you have a better connection with your members of your group or class or whatever. You have a better understanding of who they are as people, who they are, as participants, where they're at. And so then you can go in and make questions better, make questions simpler, make questions this way, That way you can kind of tweak the learning experience as you go along.
Alicia Costello | 00;31;48;15 | You can't. If we're me in my classroom, I would always like find out their foundations the first couple of weeks of class and then assign readings based on what they would connect with, right? So you get a better idea of your people will say, and then you get a better idea of as you see, as you see where they start and you see where they entered.
Alicia Costello | 00;32;10;07 | Like what really affected them, what helps them. So you're actively learning this is how this kind of person thinks where processes or filters, things like that, you're coming up with better questions to improve the learning experience as you go because of who your people are, right? You're not just sticking to the script, right? We're facing the script on the people.
Alicia Costello | 00;32;33;12 | And so then I think that makes you a better teacher because you learn how to teach all these different types. And then I think as you look back and you see what worked and what didn't work, then you discover, you know, how you might reconceive the script a little bit to make it better for next time.
Laurie Lind | 00;32;53;00 | So that definitely works well in it. Like sounds like we're talking kind of a small group setting or a setting that's centered around discussion. Now, what if I'm equipping leaders as a seminary professor or teacher such as yourself or pastor? And, you know, it's a setting that doesn't just lend itself to asking questions, even or discussion so much.
Laurie Lind | 00;33;16;28 | Is there any way to incorporate constructivist thinking in that learning environment?
Alicia Costello | 00;33;22;16 | Sure. So spoiler alert for me, I actually teach grammar in my classes. A lot of English professors don't teach grammar in their classes, but as I was talking to my students, I realized that they're actually really worried about whether where to put a comma and they get really stressed out in their papers because they don't know where to put commas.
Laurie Lind | 00;33;42;04 | I don't know how many hours of sleep I've lost, you know, the serial comma question. Yeah, I know.
Alicia Costello | 00;33;48;07 | And so I realized that this is a very big stressor to them. And so I was like, you know what? I understand that memorize and repeat. Like, it's just it doesn't work and it's not good, but I'm going to try it right? And so I went in and overall it's been very positive to, you know, kind of teach the students like how to where it put commas.
Alicia Costello | 00;34;10;26 | They feel better. That's what they tell me. I feel better. I feel like I know grammar a little better, which is good. I like that. Anything to take the stress off of them. Students are too stressed, just like.
Laurie Lind | 00;34;21;24 | Amen, that's all.
Alicia Costello | 00;34;24;09 | So then I noticed that they were starting to get a little bored. They're starting to feel a little restless. And we were going into a part of our class where we're going to edit a paper, right, to learn how to edit. And so what I wanted to do is not just give them like the memorize and repeat this and this and this, and this is what we look for a lot.
Alicia Costello | 00;34;43;17 | But I wrote a really bad paper, like a just terrible paper. I had a paper that would have gotten a D-minus in my class and I handed it to them. I decided I'm going to put the learning in there, in there, their hands. I just handed it to them and just watched them freak out over the fact they couldn't understand anything, that things were misspelled, things weren't explained.
Alicia Costello | 00;35;07;29 | They jumped around the points all over the place and I just watched them lose it over how annoying this paper was to read. That's great. And as I sat there and was like, All right, how do we fix this? They they explained my lesson. You know, they said, And I'm serious. I had maybe a 32 slide PowerPoint ready to go in case it didn't work.
Alicia Costello | 00;35;37;21 | They explained 31 of those slides themselves. They sat down and said, okay, first of all, we need paragraphs. This is atrocious. We need to define our terms. We need to not use pronouns until we've explained what they mean, right? We need to go over here and do this. We need a good title and was just like, okay, yes, here you go.
Alicia Costello | 00;35;58;02 | This is that was constructivism at, you know, at its best. I just went in and I dropped the bomb and I just away and watched the aftermath. And if there were any kinds of good questions I could ask to steer in a certain direction, that's what I did. And so that's kind of how I took something as as memorize and repeat as grammar and made it a little constructivist right.
Alicia Costello | 00;36;27;11 | And so I think if you give the students we didn't come up with this because we're brilliant, we've come up with this stuff because it works. And it's it's the right thing to do with a little bit of thinking about it. And so I think what we can do is just like instead of, okay, everyone let's open the book and learn Chapter three.
Alicia Costello | 00;36;47;23 | We can just ask the good questions and the kids will get to chapter three, right? Maybe they disagree with chapter three a little bit. Maybe they agree. Chapter three a little bit. That's okay. I am just watering a growing seed. Maybe they will get there in the end. Maybe they will not. Ultimately, whether I'm a and repeat kind of teacher or a constructivist kind of teacher, that's not even in my control anyway.
Alicia Costello | 00;37;11;02 | A lot of people have been memorized, memorized, memorized to get the right answer and thrown off the right answer at the end. Right. So constructivism sort of helps me as the teacher to like, take myself down a peg or two once I once I take myself off that teaching pedestal. A lot of times it's just to honest people working together to find an answer that is meaningful and works.
Laurie Lind | 00;37;35;20 | While that is a great definition, right, there are two honest people working together. It makes me think too, that constructivism probably works best when the teacher or the instructor has a good dose of humility.
Alicia Costello | 00;37;48;18 | Oh yeah. If you're a control freak, constructivism will help you to not be that way. Because again, the whole idea is there is a foundation. I probably didn't put that foundation on. I'm just watering the seed. They're going to build on top of this when I leave. And it's not. You know, I had a teacher mentor tell me one time, you're not the only one who's going to teach them to write an essay.
Alicia Costello | 00;38;12;24 | It's okay. You know, you can you don't have to point out the 30 things wrong with their essay, maybe point out two or three the things they can learn, and then they will. A history teacher will tell me other ones or a literature teacher or a science teacher will tell them the other ones. You don't have to be the end all, be all of their knowledge and.
Alicia Costello | 00;38;34;03 | I was like, Oh, that feels so much better. I'm less stressed.
Laurie Lind | 00;38;38;17 | Sure takes the pressure off, doesn't it? My goodness. Almost back to what you said about the scripture where passes I planted Apollo's watered, but God causes the growth. I don't have to wait and be responsible for the whole entire growth process all by myself.
Alicia Costello | 00;38;55;10 | Yeah, and I think it also like as teachers, sometimes we can get so stressed in in in making sure our students and and setting this thing to get the exact right answer right we can do all this work. We can have pages and pages and pages of notes and we are the ones working hardest in our group. And really the students should be the ones working hardest.
Alicia Costello | 00;39;18;24 | They're the learners, right?
Laurie Lind | 00;39;21;09 | Yeah.
Alicia Costello | 00;39;21;21 | So they are the ones who should be processing. We should be thinking it should feel like a work out to come to your class or Bible study or whatever, because you shouldn't be the one running marathons to make this happen. They should be. So if I could tell a quick story real quick.
Laurie Lind | 00;39;38;28 | Yes, please.
Alicia Costello | 00;39;40;07 | Illustrates that this summer I went with our youth group to help redo a house that was still under construction from Hurricane Harvey. And we're down here in Houston. Are we a big deal? And I had a group of 12 year old boys, okay. And we are redoing this house. And it's come to the point where we cut we're cutting baseboards to put in the house.
Alicia Costello | 00;40;05;24 | Okay. And so a memorize and repeat kind of teacher would walk around and say, okay, first what you do is you make sure you have all the baseboard you need. The second thing you do is you memorize the wall. You know, you measure the wall. The third thing you do is you mark the baseboard. But I didn't do that.
Alicia Costello | 00;40;24;06 | I didn't do that. I handed them a baseboard. I said, I'm going to cut because I can use this saw. How do you do this? And I just let them think it out and figure it out. And they said, okay, well, you cut it. And I said, okay, where? And they said, Well, I think we should measure it.
Alicia Costello | 00;40;43;09 | And I said, that probably would be a good idea. So I handed them a measuring tape and I said, Go ahead and they measured it. They came back. They've forgotten what the measurement was. So I said, Maybe you should write it down. Now they're 12, you know. So they go, they get a pencil and a pen and they go write it down.
Alicia Costello | 00;41;03;09 | And then they have to remember how to how to measure things because they're 12 and they've only done this in math class before. So they get the thing, they measure it, they write it down, they come back and they go, okay, it's this. And I go, okay, how do I cut a base for based on that number? And so they're, oh, we have to measure the baseboard.
Alicia Costello | 00;41;22;11 | Yes. Okay. You know, and so I just kind of let them do all the thinking work. And if we're writing, you know, how much I thought about it versus how much they thought about it, I thought about it almost none. I let them figure it out, then do all the work them, do all the thinking, then do all the problem solving.
Alicia Costello | 00;41;41;05 | And I did very little except ask questions. But if I was the memorize and repeat teacher, I would be like, Wait, why is no one taking notes? I'm telling you exactly step by step how to do this. So I think that's a very basic sort of idea about how constructivism happens. The difference between memorizing repeat and constructivism kind of thinking is I just kind of dropped this bomb on them.
Alicia Costello | 00;42;05;06 | How do we cut a baseboard? And I'll handle the power tool that you have to handle the rest. And they figured out the right answer. Those baseboards are in.
Laurie Lind | 00;42;14;13 | Did they? I was going to ask what actually happened with those baseboards. So they did some.
Alicia Costello | 00;42;19;01 | Oh, yeah, they were great. We did have to cut a couple of times. They did forget that you had to cut it on an angle. So that changed the way we ruined one or two baseboards. But it and it took way longer than if I would have just told them this is what you do process step by step.
Alicia Costello | 00;42;38;08 | But they learned. I have a feeling like at least half of them could have done it by themselves by the end of the day. And they'll take that back and be like, Oh, I could kind of baseboard. That's easy. You just do that.
Laurie Lind | 00;42;48;26 | And even there you mentioned a couple of baseboards got ruined. Maybe there there does need to be room to allow some mistakes in constructivism as the learners are learning and then as Christians again we are concerned about there are right and wrong answers to certain things. Now maybe we get tied up on too many rights and too many wrongs.
Laurie Lind | 00;43;09;04 | And the way I understand everything is the only way. And yet it's not a free for all in in our understanding of Scripture or in our equipping of leaders for local churches. So allow some mistakes. I can see that. And yet what's the you know, what's the balancing factor to keep people from concluding things that might be way, way off base?
Alicia Costello | 00;43;33;08 | Yeah, well, I think it's partly the understanding of the journey. It's a journey when I came to Christ, I didn't have any idea. I probably still don't have an idea, right? And so just keeping that sort of humility in yourself as I think that's important as a learner, to keep that humility of like, I'm still learning, I'm still growing.
Alicia Costello | 00;43;53;23 | It's still a journey for us who's also concerned with. There are right answers, there are wrong answers, etc. remembering that it's a journey and making sure that the relationship is open enough that I cut off this person because they think they have the wrong answer. But the relationship is still there, so I can still talk to them. I can still help them, I can still be in that relation.
Alicia Costello | 00;44;17;20 | Sure, because a constructivist like any learning, has to happen as a social. Like you have to have two of you, right? Well, if I go away that learning can happen, right? So a constructivist understands learning is social, so there has to be that social relationship there to continue the learning process. And so I understand it's a journey. I'm not trying to be anyone's Holy Spirit, and I want that social aspect to continue because then can still happen.
Alicia Costello | 00;44;48;26 | And guess what? The Bible says God is the one making it grow. So like I'm going to trust him in his Holy Spirit that eventually we will get to the quote unquote right answer. I hope that's the right answer that I came up with because I like to be right. But I understand that might not be it. And that's okay.
Laurie Lind | 00;45;06;16 | Well, you're still learning. I'm still learning. And that's exactly what we're talking about right here.
Alicia Costello | 00;45;12;22 | That's right. We're learning together and this podcast is helping us.
Laurie Lind | 00;45;16;14 | Your insights today really, really have expanded my understanding. So thank you so much.
Alicia Costello | 00;45;22;09 | Thank you for having me. It was so great to talk to you today.
Todd | 00;45;25;21 | You've been listening to another episode of Entrust Equipping Leaders. We're so glad you're here. If you found this conversation between Laurie and Alicia interesting. Definitely check out Alicia's article called Constructivism: An Entrust Perspective on our website. There's a link to the article and to our site in today's show notes. We'd love for you to subscribe to Entrust Equipping leaders and share it with a friend.
Todd | 00;45;53;09 | Thank you and see you next time.Speaker Name | Start Time | Text
Todd | 00;00;08;21 | Constructivism is a learning philosophy dealing with how people make meaning together. On today's podcast, Laurie Lind talks about Constructivism with Alicia Costello. Find out how Entrust incorporates some constructivist theories in its approach to leadership training. So without further ado, here are Laurie and Alicia.
Laurie Lind | 00;00;32;20 | Well, welcome back to another episode of Entrust Equipping Leaders. I’m Laurie and my wonderful guest today is Alicia Castello, currently working with Entrust and making some changes in her work as we speak. But Alicia, thanks for joining us today.
Alicia Costello | 00;00;50;14 | Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Laurie Lind | 00;00;56;25 | I really appreciate that. You wrote a wonderful article for our blog about this concept of constructivism within an adult education. And we'll get to that in a moment. But let's just start off with learning a bit more about you and who you are and your educational background.
Alicia Costello | 00;01;14;17 | Yes. So my educational background is pretty simple. I got a bachelor's degree in English. And then because you can't do anything with a bachelor's degree in English, I went and got a master's degree in English, and I really liked school at that point. I really, really, really was like, Oh, this college stuff is fun. And so I went back for my masters.
Alicia Costello | 00;01;33;26 | It was a blast. Highly recommended. Ten out of ten for anyone wondering. And I loved English was not. I've always figured I would be a teacher. I always figure that I would go into some kind of teaching profession, but that really wasn't my focus necessarily. And so as I was going into this, I wasn't setting out to say, How can I teach this in the future?
Alicia Costello | 00;02;01;10 | I was just like, I really like this and I'm going to keep taking these classes and probably I'll end up teaching. And so that's kind of what happened. During my master's degree, I got a job as a high school teacher. It was kind of a mid-season replacement for a school in our area that needed a high school English teacher quick.
Alicia Costello | 00;02;21;28 | And so I was teaching high school English, and then they brought me back for a full year teaching high school English, plus a few other things. It was one of those small private Christian schools, and I taught about seven different classes.
Alicia Costello | 00;02;37;16 | And then I got out of high school teaching, finished the master's, graduated, went into ministry for about eight years, which is a full education on itself. And then I stopped doing ministry and went into teaching college. So teaching a primarily community college. So having some students who are 16 and in dual credit classes, some students who are 46 and returning to school and the whole gamut of that.
Alicia Costello | 00;03;15;06 | So it's been super exciting. Do I think my education prepared me for that? Probably not, but I've learned a lot along the way. I guess maybe it did because it taught me how to research. And now any time I need to learn something, I just research the heck out of it. So.
Laurie Lind | 00;03;32;26 | Ha! So what kind of classes were you teaching at that college level?
Alicia Costello | 00;03;38;28 | At the college level. I taught English at 1301 and 1302. So you're kind of standard level English writing composition classes. And then I did teach one or two like literature based classes, which were great as well.
Laurie Lind | 00;03;55;03 | Wow. How fun. I mean, you hear about English teachers. Garrison Keillor used to talk about poem, the professional organization of English majors who never get jobs because there's not much to do with an English major. But you've been able to really use what you learned and what you love in. And then in all of that context, then how did you get involved with that trust?
Alicia Costello | 00;04;18;28 | Oh, it's actually a funny story. I was looking around, I had just gotten out of ministry and I was looking around and I was like, I really want to use my degree. I hadn't really been using it in ministry besides fixing everyone's commas. And so I went in and I was looking on Indeed.com, you know, good ole, indeed.
Alicia Costello | 00;04;39;12 | And I saw a in an advertisement for a curriculum writer, a job posting for interest. And I applied. And I think I filled out the online form that it said to fill out. And they called me and they were like, How did you hear about us? And I was like, Indeed.com. And they were like, We're on. Indeed. I didn't know that.
Alicia Costello | 00;05;04;26 | So I guess it made it sort of scoured the Internet for job postings, came across this one address and put it on its Web site. But interest had no idea. So I am kind of one of the only interest people, I think, that did not come from a previous relationship within, you know, with someone from within interest. So I knew no one when I got here.
Alicia Costello | 00;05;28;02 | And yeah, that's how I came involved with just going through the process and prayed a lot. And here I am.
Laurie Lind | 00;05;36;15 | That is amazing. I hadn't heard that before. And how you it would almost look like accidental, except we know it wasn't. You were meant to join us. I'm quite sure. So, like, so your background is in English and so on. Would you consider yourself more connected to education then, or more to communication in or both, or what?
Alicia Costello | 00;06;01;21 | I think communication is education, and I think education is communication. I don't think you can put one without the other. And I think especially where I think people run into issues is when we decide to put education in a box and we decide that education is only what we learn in school or what we can get a degree in or, you know, like the three R's, Free education means learning.
Alicia Costello | 00;06;31;29 | And hopefully that happens for your whole life, you know? We know that babies learn, but babies don't go to school, right? We also if we take if we think about education as it's what I learned in school or what I learn for a degree or my skills, we also cut out all social education, what I do and what I don't do, the etiquette, the morals, that kind of thing.
Alicia Costello | 00;06;58;07 | And the second we start to forget that we're in deep trouble. Hopefully you never also finish learning. You know, I. I remember talking to a mentor of mine and her seventies, and I was saying, you know, I'm like 30, but I feel young and dumb. And she goes, Honey, so do I. And I was like, Oh, okay, this doesn't go away.
Alicia Costello | 00;07;19;13 | Great. I'm always going to be learning, always going to be growing. And the second that I decide my education stops, then that's that's where we're in trouble.
Laurie Lind | 00;07;29;17 | That totally makes sense. Like, because when does if we really say, Well, now I'm done, I've learned everything there is to learn. Yeah, like you say, we're in trouble.
Alicia Costello | 00;07;38;17 | Yeah. Then we're just existing. And how boring is that?
Laurie Lind | 00;07;42;01 | Absolutely. No, we need to keep learning and growing. So as we get into this concept about constructive ism, this big, daunting word. So you did write an article, and it's paired with an article by Dr. Guthrie from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He gets into all the real academics of constructivism. But you did as well in your article, which I really appreciated.
Laurie Lind | 00;08;06;14 | But how would you define this educational theory called constructivism?
Alicia Costello | 00;08;12;21 | So Constructivism sort of posits or argues, and when I say argues, I don't mean two people yelling at each other, but in the academic, yeah, a theory will argue that learners will construct knowledge. They basically take in new knowledge and put it on top of that knowledge. Right? They're constructing this knowledge rather than passively like taking this in, memorizing it, that kind of thing.
Alicia Costello | 00;08;38;09 | And if you think about the word constructing, constructing means that you're building on something. There has to be some kind of existing foundation that you're building on top of. So not only are you learning new info, but you're actively building it on top of previous knowledge. So you're saying like, how could this fit into what I already have?
Alicia Costello | 00;08;58;28 | You inevitably are going to try to fit in that new knowledge with the preexisting knowledge or understanding it through a preexisting lens as things happen and you're learning from them. And what that really means is that knowledge is sort of deeply personal. Learning is deeply personal to the individual because each person is going to come in with their own kinds of foundations, right?
Alicia Costello | 00;09;25;09 | So they are going to actively be building on top of their own individual experience, and they're going to be taking different lessons and different emphasis from that new knowledge based on the old stuff that they've learned. So what one person is learning may not be what someone else is learning. The individual kind of makes their own knowledge as they're building on top in sort of seeing it through the different lenses that they're bringing to the table almost.
Alicia Costello | 00;09;53;28 | So Constructivism argues that learning happens. It's very individualistic that what one person is learning may not be what someone else is learning. And it also argues that it's building on top of previous knowledge. Those are kind of the two big takeaways.
Laurie Lind | 00;10;11;00 | And there definitely seem to make sense. In fact, as you describe it, it almost sounds to me like, well, why would we even call that a theory? Because it sounds like reality to me. But I imagine there are different thoughts about this. And you wrote in your article that constructivism was sort of developed or came into being as a reaction to kind of memorize and repeat type of learning.
Laurie Lind | 00;10;36;17 | What's the underlying assumption of that kind of thinking about learning?
Alicia Costello | 00;10;41;07 | Yeah, memorize and repeat is interesting. I actually don't hate it. It has its place. You know, at some point you have to remember that too, and to make for. And so I'm all about memorize and repeat in certain contexts, but it has kind of this big overarching flaw, which is that it kind of assumes assimilation. It assumes that everyone learns the same way.
Alicia Costello | 00;11;04;18 | If I say it enough times, it will get remembered. If I say this enough times, everyone will get the same answer. Everyone that they think that giving that the answer, I want means they learned it right and they assume that everyone will remember it. Maybe this one thing on top of this other thing and 99% in the time it's regulated, two things we learn in a classroom, right?
Alicia Costello | 00;11;26;27 | Two plus to make for that is education in the memorize and repeat kind of language. However, a constructivist understands that learning is social, and learning is not only what we learn in the classroom, but what we learn in our family dynamics, what we learn in our workplace. And and so you can't necessarily memorize that sort of interaction with that sort of learning.
Alicia Costello | 00;11;52;24 | So memorize and repeat. It's very focused on this one type is one way that's one type of person. So while it does again have its place, it just doesn't always it's not it's not as grand of a solution as constructivism is.
Laurie Lind | 00;12;10;24 | And I imagine that these are not the only two learning theories in existence. There probably are other thoughts about how people learn or approaches to education besides just these two extremes that we're talking about right here.
Alicia Costello | 00;12;26;14 | Oh, yes. And constructivism is a very wide spectrum. There are there are entire learning methods under constructivism. So this is just sort of an overarching kind of theory that is the big umbrella. And then underneath that you will get smaller umbrellas. I also want to say that memorize and repeat again. Well, it has its place. It's not a very good way to instill critical thinking in a person.
Alicia Costello | 00;12;53;13 | So if that is something that your culture really appreciates, it's not going to get you there. You know, I have heard stories of people learning languages and memorizing the words, but never really understanding what they mean. How then can you go and speak any other like, you know, how can you go and have any other conversation? Great. So it's a great way to make sure that everyone knows two plus two equals four.
Alicia Costello | 00;13;20;03 | But outside of that bound, it kind of breaks down a little.
Laurie Lind | 00;13;24;08 | Well, that's right. And you mentioned culture, and I think we can all think of certain cultures that seem to be more focused on, memorize and repeat as least list them. Maybe it's a stereotype, but I would think of certain ones and maybe some that would be more in favor of constructivist kind of learning. Do you think this these kind of learning styles can be part of our culture or should they be or what's what might be the best way to think of the interaction there?
Alicia Costello | 00;13;56;27 | I think they definitely can be part of our culture. Again, it's kind of a little bit comparing apples to oranges because memorize and repeat is such a narrow focus like it's only kind of in this one instance, this one classroom situation, this one thing. And constructivism is kind of about learning for your whole life, learning in the classroom and outside the classroom and in projects, and when you're a child and all this kind of thing.
Alicia Costello | 00;14;27;26 | So it's a little bit comparing apples to oranges. And I think you need both. I think we instinctively do both. I think these learning theories, just language around those phenomena. But yeah, I think that certain learning styles make sense inside certain cultures and like go them. I I'm a constructivist. As long as learning is happening, I'm happy.
Laurie Lind | 00;14;53;04 | So you did kind of mention the underlying assumptions of constructivism that we're building on whatever we have already experienced or learned. So this is let's take this over to some scripture. Would you be aware of any examples in the Bible of people learning through a constructivist approach?
Alicia Costello | 00;15;16;20 | So the first if I were to like pinpoint it, if it goes straight towards a Bible verse, I like to think of that scripture and I think it's Paul and I think it's more anchored. Then he says, I planted the seed Apollo Water did God made it grow, right? Because learning in the constructivist view is so individual that you're not the first person to teach them.
Alicia Costello | 00;15;42;07 | Two plus two equals four, right? That they will continue learning that two plus two equals four, Right? A constructivist is very interested in the learner's journey, and I think that really speaks to the learners journey. I think as Paul, you know, speaks about Timothy's mother and grandmother training him in the Lord, and he's just kind of like, I'm just building on top of what they taught you.
Alicia Costello | 00;16;06;19 | You know, I think that that is very that's very individualist centered and journey centered. Then I think that a constructivist would appreciate that, right? And then I'm thinking, like, as you know, the big question is like, is Jesus a constructivist right? This is when I go to sleep, think about it, and.
Laurie Lind | 00;16;25;15 | I'm sure you do. You just ponder it for hours at a time.
Alicia Costello | 00;16;28;28 | You got to think there's something, you know. And I'm thinking, you know, like with the public, he's talking parables. He is. I think, you know, kind of using Socratic method a little bit because that was available to him. And again, like how what learning style does a culture of in right And so this would be the most appropriate cultural learning for his audience.
Alicia Costello | 00;16;51;25 | But then I'm thinking, you know, Jesus taught the disciples by just saying come alongside me and watch. Right. The reason he had these small disciples is to just spend time with them. And so I think then Jesus really gets the fact that learning this social and the fact that there are journeys like he didn't pick one certain person from one certain, you know, the from one certain group.
Alicia Costello | 00;17;18;26 | He gathered an amalgamation of Jewish culture in that day and he said, okay, we're all going to come together. Everyone has their own foundation and we're going to build on top of that. So you have to think that there were fights and disagreements and arguments, not only the ones that are actually codified in Scripture, but like you have to think that like the zealot and the, you know, experiences yelling at each other few times.
Alicia Costello | 00;17;45;08 | And so I think that Jesus sort of used that constructivist approach maybe to teach socially with his social life, with his disciples. And I think he he brought them into ministry. And then he was like, okay, how are you going to solve this problem like we need to do? And I think that is very constructive is to just hand people a problem and say, Sort it out for yourselves and I'll just be here to help you along if you get stuck.
Laurie Lind | 00;18;11;29 | Mm hmm. Yeah. It seems like you can see a lot of examples of that with him just taking a basic thing that people would have already known, whether it was fishing or farming or tax collecting, and then talking about it expanding on it, letting them, like you say, solve some problems in interest. We talk about well, we just started talking about constructivism, as far as I know, but we used I've heard terms like discovery and learning and I've heard about, like you mentioned, Socratic method, which are all of those interchangeable terms when you say.
Alicia Costello | 00;18;46;08 | Now, I'm not an expert on all of the different ways I kind of see Socratic method. I've seen it, I've seen it happen a few different ways. When the teacher or the leader, the Socratic method is very much like, Oh, one minute I'm the teacher and I'm going to school this kid, right? I've seen it used very kind of domineering lately.
Alicia Costello | 00;19;11;17 | And so and sometimes they even, like, embarrass the student. And I don't love that aspect of Socratic method, but when it is to people just saying like, Hey, here's an idea and you have another idea and let's come to some third idea. I like I like that kind of Socratic. So I think it depends a lot on the person who is facilitating the Socratic method.
Alicia Costello | 00;19;33;16 | Discover and learning I think does comfortably kind of fit under constructivism. No, I'm not sure, especially just learning like how much the teacher or the leader. The titer is into that. I kind of picture a montessori school like wandering around and and discover things, right? Yeah. But I'm not sure how much of that plays into adult learning and child learning because they're very different.
Alicia Costello | 00;20;00;29 | Adults learn in very different ways. The children learn. So I don't I'm not sure about that. But I think discovery learning like does comfortably fit under Constructivism because you can say, you know, the the child, it's sort of individually based on the person and the person is adding new knowledge on top of old knowledge. So I like that.
Alicia Costello | 00;20;23;12 | I guess they all depend. I get really it all depends on the one in charge. Three.
Laurie Lind | 00;20;28;01 | Yeah. Yeah. How they approach it and yeah, what, what's their own attitude towards themself and their role. But you know when we talk about it's so individualistic and it's building on your own, begin whatever experiences you bring to the situation in a way that sounds a little bit wobbly to me. What if I enter this learning experience and my foundation is off kilter or, you know, way out somewhere?
Laurie Lind | 00;20;55;14 | My whole building is going to end up being quite unstable. How how do we avoid the danger of that in constructivist learning?
Alicia Costello | 00;21;05;27 | Well, a pure constructivist would say like, Yay, hurray, learning it's happening, we don't care. Right? But that I mean, constructivism is an educational theory, not a moral theory. Right? Right. Okay. So I think it is the teacher in a constructivist sort of context is the one I like to see myself as the one who drops bombs in the classroom and lets them figure it out.
Laurie Lind | 00;21;31;12 | Huh? Yeah.
Alicia Costello | 00;21;33;10 | So whether that, you know, as they're still trying to fit all of these things into their context, it's not like growing can still happen. It's, you know, I think part of learning and part of growing up is learning that, like, things aren't necessarily as black and white. They're more nuanced than you thought they were. And I think that still fits comfortably into constructivism.
Alicia Costello | 00;21;57;11 | You're not going to go in like everything is blue and you're just going to try to fit and argue about how red is blue, right? I think you're going to go in and learn like, oh, sometimes blue isn't as blue as I thought or sometimes this is and it's this. And a constructivist is like, Hurray, yay! Learning happened.
Alicia Costello | 00;22;16;22 | We are happy. Education has occurred. But that's really where the teacher comes in and just ask the right questions, asks, you know, the student to think it out. And I guess the Socratic method can come a little bit into play there. But yeah, so maybe not a question that constructivist ask them so.
Laurie Lind | 00;22;37;22 | Mm. Well because I can see you like you're saying, we probably do both if we're going to just say there are these two ends of the spectrum, memorize, repeat and constructivism. We do both all the time because if we just say Yeah, learning happens, you could learn anything. I mean, that's so nebulous, that is so wide open and memories and repeat does say that two plus two does equal four.
Laurie Lind | 00;23;05;11 | I mean, you could land somehow on some other formulation there, but it would not. There are is sometimes a correct answer or a correct direction to head. And so maybe the two types of learning or thinking need to temper one another would that be right? Yeah.
Alicia Costello | 00;23;22;29 | Yeah, definitely. That's why you need lots of you need multiple. Constructivism is the only way to go all the time. I'm not going to ask my kindergartner what he you know what he thinks two plus two is. Right. Well, I'm going to ask him, but then I'm go, No, it's four. It's four. I really, no matter if you say it's 32, it's really four, I promise you.
Alicia Costello | 00;23;44;17 | Yeah. But the you know, so I think it's just an amalgamation of all of these sort of phenomena happening together. Constructivist put language on a certain aspect of it. They're describing a certain kind of learning that's happening. They now, they described it with a really big umbrella that a lot of stuff fits under, but sometimes stuff doesn't, and that's okay.
Laurie Lind | 00;24;08;28 | Yeah. So now let's back up to and trust again. And you've been working with the UN Trusts Curriculum team. How long have you actually been working with Entrust?
Alicia Costello | 00;24;19;09 | Two years now to years.
Laurie Lind | 00;24;21;19 | And as we record this, I mean, by the time we released this episode all well, no, but you were going to be moving on from Entrust to do some additional creative work. And we're and I'm excited for you for that. So but within your two years at Entrust in Curriculum, what are some of the projects that you worked on or tasks that you accomplished?
Alicia Costello | 00;24;43;28 | Oh my goodness. Well, right now we're working on a little handbook, something I'm not sure format TBD, but we're working on how to have a conversation with difficult people or not how to have a difficult conversation with people.
Laurie Lind | 00;25;05;23 | The people on some difficult but the topics because. Right.
Alicia Costello | 00;25;09;07 | Every one is difficult. I'm difficult. They're difficult. Everyone. Yes. And then I've worked on several revisions. I worked on the Walking with Chrysler revision, written up numerous things like these articles, blog posts, worked on newsletters and things like that. So lots of different kinds of things. And I write it right, and I think I just said the word righted.
Alicia Costello | 00;25;40;29 | I mean, English for I'm an English teacher.
Laurie Lind | 00;25;44;09 | Well, we're so glad that you have wrote so many things for and trust you.
Alicia Costello | 00;25;48;26 | I had fun writing that writing experience.
Laurie Lind | 00;25;53;26 | So like you mentioned, revising, that's revising some of our training courses, different types of things. Have you incorporated any constructivist thinking in any of the projects that you've worked on for and trust?
Alicia Costello | 00;26;09;06 | I definitely think I have it and it helps me constructive is mindset helps me as I'm sitting in writing to to sort of get in the right position. I guess it doesn't. Nessus certainly dictate the words I'm going to type, but it helps me get into getting to what I call the right position, the right mindset, the right thinking, and what I mean by that is when I'm writing, if I'm thinking constructivist Lee, I guess it helps me not to harp on whether the participant will get the right answer, quote unquote, get the right answer.
Alicia Costello | 00;26;50;10 | I want them to get an answer that means something to them. I want them to connect to the material because again, like learning occurs when we are connecting it to all information. So I want that connection to happen and I want thinking and new answers to come out. I'm not so concerned most of the time. On whether they will get the quote unquote correct answer.
Laurie Lind | 00;27;19;01 | Yeah, And how do you go about achieving that goal?
Alicia Costello | 00;27;24;12 | I think it's in the way you write the questions. If we're talking discussion questions or reflection questions, I also think it's in the way that you sort of approach the material because I want that connection to happen first, and then I want to go into the materials. So now that my audience is connected, they're engaged and then they're as I'm writing or as I'm giving them new ideas, they are connecting it into what they are experiencing.
Alicia Costello | 00;27;59;22 | I'm also not trying. It helps me really stay away from leading questions. Right. And in I think it's ephemeral. We talk a lot about open questions versus leading questions, and so it helps me stay away from the leading question. And I find when I'm in that constructivist mindset that I write a lot more open questions and I try, I tend to not great as many leading questions when I'm really when I'm considering myself.
Alicia Costello | 00;28;26;09 | I am the expert, I am the teacher. You will learn from me. I am brilliant. I write a lot more leading questions.
Laurie Lind | 00;28;33;28 | MM And how would you define a leading question?
Alicia Costello | 00;28;38;11 | A leading question is one that you asked to get a, an answer that you're already thinking. That's right. So I'm asking them, but I don't really want their opinion. I want them to regurgitate it back to what I think is the correct answer to me. So I'm not really asking them to engage their brain, engage their creativity, engage their culture.
Alicia Costello | 00;29;05;05 | I'm asking them to repeat back that you pursue equals for. And while that can be helpful in maybe the beginning, right, we talk a lot about like the flow of the questions, why that may be helpful in the beginning. And I think you can still use a constructivist or beginning point to get to the same place.
Laurie Lind | 00;29;27;14 | Even at the beginning of a of a discussion like of a Bible passage.
Alicia Costello | 00;29;31;19 | Yes, I think there are ways that you can ask or focuses you can make that, you know, sometimes we have discussion leaders that will ask these very specific questions, and that's what they want. Like, oh, there's a group of ten answers that you might get, you know, or that you might give. But really, we're just looking for these ten.
Alicia Costello | 00;29;55;14 | And I think you can even employ constructivist thinking and that connection into your first few questions.
Laurie Lind | 00;30;03;22 | What's the advantage with the end result of using constructivist thinking in like structuring how you lead a Bible study or a Sunday school class or or whatever kind of teaching? Like it makes sense. The idea like I'm building on what I've already known and I'm adding and I'm thinking, But why? Why would it matter in the end to have helped your learners learn in that method?
Alicia Costello | 00;30;33;05 | First of all, I think the information really sticks more to the learner. Like let's just put the learner into that perspective. It makes because they have built it on top of a foundation they already have. It sticks more. It's relevant to them. It's not just remembering when the Civil War started, right, but it's actual things they might use.
Alicia Costello | 00;30;54;11 | And then I think, honestly, constructivism makes you a better teacher. Now, I know a lot of people, you know, listening to this might be leaders and they'd be like, What? What are you talking about? And I think constructivism, like as you are asking the questions, as you are discussing, as you're asking people to put new learning on top of old foundations, you are finding out what those old foundations are and so you are able to build off of those foundations.
Alicia Costello | 00;31;23;15 | First of all, you have a better connection with your members of your group or class or whatever. You have a better understanding of who they are as people, who they are, as participants, where they're at. And so then you can go in and make questions better, make questions simpler, make questions this way, That way you can kind of tweak the learning experience as you go along.
Alicia Costello | 00;31;48;15 | You can't. If we're me in my classroom, I would always like find out their foundations the first couple of weeks of class and then assign readings based on what they would connect with, right? So you get a better idea of your people will say, and then you get a better idea of as you see, as you see where they start and you see where they entered.
Alicia Costello | 00;32;10;07 | Like what really affected them, what helps them. So you're actively learning this is how this kind of person thinks where processes or filters, things like that, you're coming up with better questions to improve the learning experience as you go because of who your people are, right? You're not just sticking to the script, right? We're facing the script on the people.
Alicia Costello | 00;32;33;12 | And so then I think that makes you a better teacher because you learn how to teach all these different types. And then I think as you look back and you see what worked and what didn't work, then you discover, you know, how you might reconceive the script a little bit to make it better for next time.
Laurie Lind | 00;32;53;00 | So that definitely works well in it. Like sounds like we're talking kind of a small group setting or a setting that's centered around discussion. Now, what if I'm equipping leaders as a seminary professor or teacher such as yourself or pastor? And, you know, it's a setting that doesn't just lend itself to asking questions, even or discussion so much.
Laurie Lind | 00;33;16;28 | Is there any way to incorporate constructivist thinking in that learning environment?
Alicia Costello | 00;33;22;16 | Sure. So spoiler alert for me, I actually teach grammar in my classes. A lot of English professors don't teach grammar in their classes, but as I was talking to my students, I realized that they're actually really worried about whether where to put a comma and they get really stressed out in their papers because they don't know where to put commas.
Laurie Lind | 00;33;42;04 | I don't know how many hours of sleep I've lost, you know, the serial comma question. Yeah, I know.
Alicia Costello | 00;33;48;07 | And so I realized that this is a very big stressor to them. And so I was like, you know what? I understand that memorize and repeat. Like, it's just it doesn't work and it's not good, but I'm going to try it right? And so I went in and overall it's been very positive to, you know, kind of teach the students like how to where it put commas.
Alicia Costello | 00;34;10;26 | They feel better. That's what they tell me. I feel better. I feel like I know grammar a little better, which is good. I like that. Anything to take the stress off of them. Students are too stressed, just like.
Laurie Lind | 00;34;21;24 | Amen, that's all.
Alicia Costello | 00;34;24;09 | So then I noticed that they were starting to get a little bored. They're starting to feel a little restless. And we were going into a part of our class where we're going to edit a paper, right, to learn how to edit. And so what I wanted to do is not just give them like the memorize and repeat this and this and this, and this is what we look for a lot.
Alicia Costello | 00;34;43;17 | But I wrote a really bad paper, like a just terrible paper. I had a paper that would have gotten a D-minus in my class and I handed it to them. I decided I'm going to put the learning in there, in there, their hands. I just handed it to them and just watched them freak out over the fact they couldn't understand anything, that things were misspelled, things weren't explained.
Alicia Costello | 00;35;07;29 | They jumped around the points all over the place and I just watched them lose it over how annoying this paper was to read. That's great. And as I sat there and was like, All right, how do we fix this? They they explained my lesson. You know, they said, And I'm serious. I had maybe a 32 slide PowerPoint ready to go in case it didn't work.
Alicia Costello | 00;35;37;21 | They explained 31 of those slides themselves. They sat down and said, okay, first of all, we need paragraphs. This is atrocious. We need to define our terms. We need to not use pronouns until we've explained what they mean, right? We need to go over here and do this. We need a good title and was just like, okay, yes, here you go.
Alicia Costello | 00;35;58;02 | This is that was constructivism at, you know, at its best. I just went in and I dropped the bomb and I just away and watched the aftermath. And if there were any kinds of good questions I could ask to steer in a certain direction, that's what I did. And so that's kind of how I took something as as memorize and repeat as grammar and made it a little constructivist right.
Alicia Costello | 00;36;27;11 | And so I think if you give the students we didn't come up with this because we're brilliant, we've come up with this stuff because it works. And it's it's the right thing to do with a little bit of thinking about it. And so I think what we can do is just like instead of, okay, everyone let's open the book and learn Chapter three.
Alicia Costello | 00;36;47;23 | We can just ask the good questions and the kids will get to chapter three, right? Maybe they disagree with chapter three a little bit. Maybe they agree. Chapter three a little bit. That's okay. I am just watering a growing seed. Maybe they will get there in the end. Maybe they will not. Ultimately, whether I'm a and repeat kind of teacher or a constructivist kind of teacher, that's not even in my control anyway.
Alicia Costello | 00;37;11;02 | A lot of people have been memorized, memorized, memorized to get the right answer and thrown off the right answer at the end. Right. So constructivism sort of helps me as the teacher to like, take myself down a peg or two once I once I take myself off that teaching pedestal. A lot of times it's just to honest people working together to find an answer that is meaningful and works.
Laurie Lind | 00;37;35;20 | While that is a great definition, right, there are two honest people working together. It makes me think too, that constructivism probably works best when the teacher or the instructor has a good dose of humility.
Alicia Costello | 00;37;48;18 | Oh yeah. If you're a control freak, constructivism will help you to not be that way. Because again, the whole idea is there is a foundation. I probably didn't put that foundation on. I'm just watering the seed. They're going to build on top of this when I leave. And it's not. You know, I had a teacher mentor tell me one time, you're not the only one who's going to teach them to write an essay.
Alicia Costello | 00;38;12;24 | It's okay. You know, you can you don't have to point out the 30 things wrong with their essay, maybe point out two or three the things they can learn, and then they will. A history teacher will tell me other ones or a literature teacher or a science teacher will tell them the other ones. You don't have to be the end all, be all of their knowledge and.
Alicia Costello | 00;38;34;03 | I was like, Oh, that feels so much better. I'm less stressed.
Laurie Lind | 00;38;38;17 | Sure takes the pressure off, doesn't it? My goodness. Almost back to what you said about the scripture where passes I planted Apollo's watered, but God causes the growth. I don't have to wait and be responsible for the whole entire growth process all by myself.
Alicia Costello | 00;38;55;10 | Yeah, and I think it also like as teachers, sometimes we can get so stressed in in in making sure our students and and setting this thing to get the exact right answer right we can do all this work. We can have pages and pages and pages of notes and we are the ones working hardest in our group. And really the students should be the ones working hardest.
Alicia Costello | 00;39;18;24 | They're the learners, right?
Laurie Lind | 00;39;21;09 | Yeah.
Alicia Costello | 00;39;21;21 | So they are the ones who should be processing. We should be thinking it should feel like a work out to come to your class or Bible study or whatever, because you shouldn't be the one running marathons to make this happen. They should be. So if I could tell a quick story real quick.
Laurie Lind | 00;39;38;28 | Yes, please.
Alicia Costello | 00;39;40;07 | Illustrates that this summer I went with our youth group to help redo a house that was still under construction from Hurricane Harvey. And we're down here in Houston. Are we a big deal? And I had a group of 12 year old boys, okay. And we are redoing this house. And it's come to the point where we cut we're cutting baseboards to put in the house.
Alicia Costello | 00;40;05;24 | Okay. And so a memorize and repeat kind of teacher would walk around and say, okay, first what you do is you make sure you have all the baseboard you need. The second thing you do is you memorize the wall. You know, you measure the wall. The third thing you do is you mark the baseboard. But I didn't do that.
Alicia Costello | 00;40;24;06 | I didn't do that. I handed them a baseboard. I said, I'm going to cut because I can use this saw. How do you do this? And I just let them think it out and figure it out. And they said, okay, well, you cut it. And I said, okay, where? And they said, Well, I think we should measure it.
Alicia Costello | 00;40;43;09 | And I said, that probably would be a good idea. So I handed them a measuring tape and I said, Go ahead and they measured it. They came back. They've forgotten what the measurement was. So I said, Maybe you should write it down. Now they're 12, you know. So they go, they get a pencil and a pen and they go write it down.
Alicia Costello | 00;41;03;09 | And then they have to remember how to how to measure things because they're 12 and they've only done this in math class before. So they get the thing, they measure it, they write it down, they come back and they go, okay, it's this. And I go, okay, how do I cut a base for based on that number? And so they're, oh, we have to measure the baseboard.
Alicia Costello | 00;41;22;11 | Yes. Okay. You know, and so I just kind of let them do all the thinking work. And if we're writing, you know, how much I thought about it versus how much they thought about it, I thought about it almost none. I let them figure it out, then do all the work them, do all the thinking, then do all the problem solving.
Alicia Costello | 00;41;41;05 | And I did very little except ask questions. But if I was the memorize and repeat teacher, I would be like, Wait, why is no one taking notes? I'm telling you exactly step by step how to do this. So I think that's a very basic sort of idea about how constructivism happens. The difference between memorizing repeat and constructivism kind of thinking is I just kind of dropped this bomb on them.
Alicia Costello | 00;42;05;06 | How do we cut a baseboard? And I'll handle the power tool that you have to handle the rest. And they figured out the right answer. Those baseboards are in.
Laurie Lind | 00;42;14;13 | Did they? I was going to ask what actually happened with those baseboards. So they did some.
Alicia Costello | 00;42;19;01 | Oh, yeah, they were great. We did have to cut a couple of times. They did forget that you had to cut it on an angle. So that changed the way we ruined one or two baseboards. But it and it took way longer than if I would have just told them this is what you do process step by step.
Alicia Costello | 00;42;38;08 | But they learned. I have a feeling like at least half of them could have done it by themselves by the end of the day. And they'll take that back and be like, Oh, I could kind of baseboard. That's easy. You just do that.
Laurie Lind | 00;42;48;26 | And even there you mentioned a couple of baseboards got ruined. Maybe there there does need to be room to allow some mistakes in constructivism as the learners are learning and then as Christians again we are concerned about there are right and wrong answers to certain things. Now maybe we get tied up on too many rights and too many wrongs.
Laurie Lind | 00;43;09;04 | And the way I understand everything is the only way. And yet it's not a free for all in in our understanding of Scripture or in our equipping of leaders for local churches. So allow some mistakes. I can see that. And yet what's the you know, what's the balancing factor to keep people from concluding things that might be way, way off base?
Alicia Costello | 00;43;33;08 | Yeah, well, I think it's partly the understanding of the journey. It's a journey when I came to Christ, I didn't have any idea. I probably still don't have an idea, right? And so just keeping that sort of humility in yourself as I think that's important as a learner, to keep that humility of like, I'm still learning, I'm still growing.
Alicia Costello | 00;43;53;23 | It's still a journey for us who's also concerned with. There are right answers, there are wrong answers, etc. remembering that it's a journey and making sure that the relationship is open enough that I cut off this person because they think they have the wrong answer. But the relationship is still there, so I can still talk to them. I can still help them, I can still be in that relation.
Alicia Costello | 00;44;17;20 | Sure, because a constructivist like any learning, has to happen as a social. Like you have to have two of you, right? Well, if I go away that learning can happen, right? So a constructivist understands learning is social, so there has to be that social relationship there to continue the learning process. And so I understand it's a journey. I'm not trying to be anyone's Holy Spirit, and I want that social aspect to continue because then can still happen.
Alicia Costello | 00;44;48;26 | And guess what? The Bible says God is the one making it grow. So like I'm going to trust him in his Holy Spirit that eventually we will get to the quote unquote right answer. I hope that's the right answer that I came up with because I like to be right. But I understand that might not be it. And that's okay.
Laurie Lind | 00;45;06;16 | Well, you're still learning. I'm still learning. And that's exactly what we're talking about right here.
Alicia Costello | 00;45;12;22 | That's right. We're learning together and this podcast is helping us.
Laurie Lind | 00;45;16;14 | Your insights today really, really have expanded my understanding. So thank you so much.
Alicia Costello | 00;45;22;09 | Thank you for having me. It was so great to talk to you today.
Todd | 00;45;25;21 | You've been listening to another episode of Entrust Equipping Leaders. We're so glad you're here. If you found this conversation between Laurie and Alicia interesting. Definitely check out Alicia's article called Constructivism: An Entrust Perspective on our website. There's a link to the article and to our site in today's show notes. We'd love for you to subscribe to Entrust Equipping leaders and share it with a friend.
Todd | 00;45;53;09 | Thank you and see you next time.
Guest Jerry Wells lived and served in Romania for nearly three decades. Learn from his experiences and wise observations about culture, thinking biblically and celebrating our differences.
Links and resources
Jerry's Entrust Equipping Leaders article: https://www.entrust4.org/post/contextual-ministry-personal-lessons-and-practices
Entrust: https://www.entrust4.org
[00:00:02] Jerry Wells: My way is not necessarily the right way. My way is just my way. So think through things before rushing to judgment and also try to think through them biblically[00:00:22] Todd Randall: When we enter new cultures to serve God, how can we adapt ourselves to those cultures today? Laurie Lynd continues conversation with a new guest, Jerry Wells. Jerry lived and served in Romania for about 20 years serving with Entrust, training pastors and church leaders. So let's join Laurie and our guest, Jerry Wells.[00:00:45] Laurie Lind: Well, I'm so glad to be able to welcome Jerry Wells to Entrust Equipping Leaders today. We go back a ways, but we've had quite different experiences. And so Jerry, I know you have a wealth of knowledge for us about contextualization and contextualizing ourselves to some extent. Would you start out by telling us a bit about yourself in particularly in relation to cross cultural experiences along the way. [00:01:17] Jerry Wells: For 10 years, I served as a pastor in the U.S. before going to Romania. In that I moved into Romania in 1988, it was a communist country and I went in as a university student. The revolution came along a year and a half later and that opened up new freedoms for the country and for me, Whereas I'd gone in with a mandate of three, maybe four years. I wound up staying 28 years and I lived inclusion a polka in the region known as Transylvania. I worked in leadership training and evangelical denominations and in an evangelical renewal movement in the Romanian Orthodox Church beyond the borders of Romania. I also had ministry in each of the five countries that borders with Romania Moldova, Ukraine, Hungary, Serbia and Bulgaria. Wonderful years and wonderful experiences with wonderful people.[00:02:19] Laurie Lind: That is a lot of different cultures and backgrounds of people you worked with and lived amongst. And if I might add, I think you entered the country as a single man. But somewhere along the way, I think that status may have changed.[00:02:34] Jerry Wells: That's exactly right. And quite frankly had I been married, certainly had, I had Children. I never would have gone into Romania when I went into, into that country. The conditions under Ceausescu's rule. Um They were, they were very bad. I did marry because I stayed on that much longer. The Lord put me together with a lovely Romanian woman And we married in the late 1990s.[00:03:05] Laurie Lind: So I think two, you've got so cross cultural experience even in your home, haven't you?[00:03:12] Jerry Wells: That's exactly right. I'm the only one who is not in part or in whole Romanian. My wife is fully Romanian and our daughters are half Romanian and half American. I'm the lone ranger, full American. I[00:03:30] Laurie Lind: can only imagine that could be an entire different conversation about marrying cross culturally, which many people have done. And I think that brings a whole array of learning and adjusting and so on, but we'll stick, will stick to the concept of ministry in particular. So, as you were living in Romania and working with people from other cultures too, what are some things you learned about yourself? Maybe that surprised you.[00:03:58] Jerry Wells: Good question. One thing that surprised me was my ability to adapt to hardship and disappointment. And that was, that was a pleasant surprise. I know I have to give God the credit. Apart from his grace, I could have never stood up to things like had emergency surgery and a communist hospital are a very, very large security breakdown that could have threatened my presence in the country and the very lives and freedom of the people that I came to serve. So that was one thing that sort of surprised me that I was able to, to work through those and to have grace to go through those. Another was an ability to alter my own perspective in some areas. I came to realize there that others with less formal training and experience than I often knew the Bible and knew the Lord more intimately than people like myself. I found out they were already more advanced in some very basic areas of the Christian life, like commitment to ministry and commitment to building the church of Jesus Christ and discipline. So for a few areas, if not more, that surprised me.[00:05:29] Laurie Lind: What did you discover about yourself that you realized might need to change a little bit to better serve the people around you?[00:05:39] Jerry Wells: Well, I just mentioned a couple of big things now, I think I need to mention the small things I found out that I needed to make some changes in how I deal with some of the small things. Often it's the little things that trip us up instead of the big things. And that's, that's true for me. For instance, I tend to be rigid and he said in my own ways, and I had to confront punctuality or lack thereof in Romania, punctuality does not mean godliness. Even though I might have thought that before I went to Romania America tends to be punctual there. Except among us, I tend to be too punctual. Probably Romanians are at the opposite end of the spectrum. Punctuality does not equate with spirituality. And sometimes the less punctual or the more spiritual I proved myself to be quite unsparing ritual in the early going, trying to deal with the lack of punctuality and the people that I worked with. And then uh I began to make some changes and thank the Lord for that. Another change that I needed to, to, to deal with was patient ministry I had come in out of a background of ministry when I felt like I had to hit the ground running. I had to go all out. I had to see rapid results. That was true of my early going in Romania. As I knew, I only had a mandate of three, maybe four years before the conditions in the communist environment would force me out. But then those three or four years extended into 28 years. And I realized that my perspective on pace and ministry needed to change. Uh Some of the most important things can't be done quickly. They take time, they take involvement with people, they take relationship and building on things. So pace and ministry was another thing that I saw I needed to change. And one thing sort of a mechanical thing was teaching style. We entrust make, make an emphasis of discussion, thoughtful guided socratic discussion, sometimes it's called. But the whole Romanian educational system is built on formal education lecture style. So I had to learn to balance um the lecture with the discussion. At first, I did more lecture. That was what they were familiar with gradually I built into more discussion. So these were some of the things that I needed to change, how to, how to deal with the smaller things. My pace and ministry and my teaching style and the training.[00:08:45] Laurie Lind: We do think okay. These are things I'm discovering about myself, my perspective, my understanding of how to teach or how, how life functions, how quickly, um, how do we determine? I need to change these things about myself or maybe not. I mean, even when I lived overseas, I lived in Austria and then in Czechoslovakia, I often wondered, well, some things are different but are they right or wrong? I mean, do I need to change this or is this okay about myself or how I fit in here? How do we make those determinations of? Um I need to learn to be less punctual or I don't need to worry about that so much.[00:09:30] Jerry Wells: That is another really good question. I think most of us need to make a realization that we may or may not have made. And that is my way is not necessarily the right way. My way is just my way. Um That may not be the way others have my way is not necessarily the right way unless it happens to be the biblical way. And the Bible says that is the way. So it helps to try to think through things before rushing to judgment when we come up against practice. And another culture that challenges our own practice in that particular area. Take time to think through things before making a quick judgment. Think about the premises behind the way they do it and the way we do it and think about the results that come from the way we do it. So think through things before rushing to judgment and also try to think through them biblically. So very often, many of the things that we have thought to be biblical, we've simply taken them for granted because that's the way we've always done them all our lives and they may or may not be biblical. Let me give you just a very simple but concrete example. I grew up in a church denomination where we had Sunday morning services that lasted 45 minutes, 45 minutes. Well, I gradually in America was able to be adapted to services that lasted up to an hour, A whole hour. But then I went to Romania and found it very often church services there lasted three hours, three hours. So which is right? 45 minutes, one hour, three hours. None of the above is necessarily right. The question is, which fits our culture. So culture, cultural differences need to be filtered and it really helps if we can realize that our way is not necessarily the right way. It's just our way. And if we can think through those differences that we find if we can think them through and evaluate them biblically, those are things that helped me as I adapted in Romania.[00:12:08] Laurie Lind: You know, I'll share a quick one too. I remember living in the Czech Republic in church, people would sit to sing and stand to pray. And I grew up where we were sitting down when we prayed and we stood up to sing and that was just different to me. Well, that was kind of an easy one to figure out. Like, doesn't really matter if I'm sitting or standing when I'm praying or singing, it's just different and both have, they're both fine. So that was something that wasn't so hard to adapt to in my own adaptation to that culture. There were other things that were much harder, of course. But speaking of that, um and this question isn't necessarily on my list, but I really do want to ask this. You said that Romanians and I'm sure others were used to a teaching style that was much more authoritarian lecture, almost, maybe wrote and memorization, whether in school or perhaps even in church or Bible studies. And then you'd mentioned and trust has this value of discussion and thoughtful Socratic type of thinking together, that's quite a different mindset. How do we determine whether it's a good idea to introduce a whole new way of learning to a people of a certain culture?[00:13:30] Jerry Wells: That is a good question also and one that I may not have much in the way of answer for. But I think one thing we definitely need to do is to motivate God's people to think biblically and to think Christian Lee um people in the culture you were in and the culture I was in have been left in a situation where they let the authority figures, thank for them. Obviously, the communist authority figures decided everything for the country. But also the teachers in Romania, they were the authorities, they knew everything and the students simply had to take copious notes and regurgitate everything they heard. This to me is not um education. And if we're doing that kind of thing in Christian circles, we're not really doing Christian education. We want to train mature believers who can think mature Lee and think about the Bible, mature Lee in order to do that, they have to get away from simply taking notes from authorities and reproducing those notes, they need to think through issues, guided discussion, thoughtful guided discussion forces students to think through issues and to think biblically. So I think Lori that we, we must somehow to some degree introduce guided thoughtful discussion with those that we're working with that may vary according to the cultural context. But I think it can be done. And I did see that Romanians adapted quite well. They are prone to be talkers, they like to converse. But in a a teaching situation, they are prone to sit quietly. However, once they got a little bit of an appetite through, for this through experience, they took to it quite well.[00:15:45] Laurie Lind: Even in, in those cultures, once they kind of discovered, they might have a voice and they might learn from one another as well. There seems to be a way that almost any culture finds the value and we can look back to Jesus and see he often just promoted discussion amongst the disciples as well. So there are some basis for making those helping make those adjustments amongst whom we live.[00:16:11] Jerry Wells: And you have made a very good point and argument for a discussion that was the main part of jesus' ministry method. And we would tend to think that Jesus was somewhat super cultural in the way he approached things including his teaching method.[00:16:30] Laurie Lind: It all bears a lot of thought though. Definitely and carefulness and sensitivity, which brings me to the article that you wrote for us, which is wonderful. I want to urge our listeners to read uh Jerry Wells article on our website and I'll put that link in the show notes. Um You talked about the value of humility in contextualizing ourselves to new environments. Why is humility valuable or how does it help us contextualize?[00:16:58] Jerry Wells: Very simply, humility is important because God is opposed to the proud but gives grace to the humble. God is opposed to the proud and actually, people are opposed to the proud. Pride builds walls. Pride keeps people away from us. No one likes to be around a proud person. No one wants a relationship with a proud person. Humor builds bridges and that's one way of experiencing the humility that will help us in ministry as well as in life, the ability to laugh and to laugh at ourselves, even laughing at ourselves. Shows that we're human. We make mistakes it shows that we're humble, we can laugh at ourselves. I did relate a story that turned out to be pretty funny there in the, in the article I wrote, but I thought of another story that wasn't quite so humorous, but one that, that illustrates this thing of discoveries in terms of contextual ization. When I went to Romania, I had to engage in a language year at the university. I had to take their formal language training in Romanian, ostensibly to gain a basis for which to study for a university degree. Because I went in as a university student, I was in a class that had eight other students, four Greek girls, four Palestinian boys. Uh Normally there is some degree of suspicion between Palestinians and Americans, or at least in our minds, we think there could be barriers and suspicions. But an amazing thing happened at the end of the first semester, I left in mid December to go back to the United States for Christmas holidays. And I happened to leave and fly out of Germany about the same time that another flight flew out of Germany had never reached destination. It was blown up by a terrorist bomb over Lockerbie Scotland. I came back later and later in January to resume my studies in that language year. Actually, I came back late. I was already acculturated in my in lack of punctuality in Romania. I came back late for second cement when I appeared um coming toward the class in the hallway, the Palestinian boys were outside the door. They looked down, they saw me and they erupted. They were ecstatic. They thought I was coming back late because I would never come back late. They thought that I had been in that plane that went down over Scotland. And this says that somehow there had been a bond built, a relationship established between an American and four Palestinians that transcended cultures and transcended national differences. And it was such a lesson to me not to let cultural and national barriers stand in the way of relationships so often, what could be a national barrier doesn't really represent what is true at the human level person to person. So none of us should ever let preconceptions or misconceptions block our relationships. But the issue is we need to spend time with people and share life with people, work with our students in the classes in the sessions, but also outside of the sessions in life. And another thing that's really helpful in all of this is to let other people help us. When I was coming down ill with acute appendicitis. In that first year in Romania, I happen to live in a housing facility in which a young medical school graduate also lived. That man with whom I had begun a relationship came to me in my sickness. He took my vital signs, he diagnosed me. He told me I was on the verge of dying if I didn't get to an emergency room quickly, he almost forced me to go down to this emergency room. Parentheses. I had vowed before I went into Romania, I would never go into a Romanian hospital. I would take the first train out of the country and go to Vienna and go into a hospital in Austria. I was confronted with a situation where my life was hanging in the balance. But because of a Romanian and I take a non Christian friend, I wound up getting what I needed. Even though it was tough. Barriers, don't need to be barriers. We don't need to let those stand in the way. Another story that's also not a humorous story had to do with a meeting of a church service. And during that meeting, a woman engaged in what I would say is an unbiblical practice. Another man from another church had been invited to be guest speaker in that service. His church was from a different denomination. He took note quite um quite distinctly of what that woman had done earlier in the service. And when he got up to speak, he took that as his opportunity to correct her unbiblical practice. It did not go over well, it didn't go over well with the leaders of the church to which he had been invited. It didn't go over well to the people that he spoke to his message after that was very good. It may not have even been heard because of the barrier he created at the outset. He wasn't wrong in his belief. He would not have been wrong. I don't think in trying to correct it with the right people at the right time in the right way. I think it was self defeating and how he did what he did not in what he did. We need to be careful in adapting to, to a new culture that we do not do something that builds barriers. We want to build bridges.[00:24:14] Laurie Lind: So a lot of people who are listening to us maybe don't live in a different culture or overseas, but they're still working with people who, well, we all are somewhat, have a little bit of a difference in culture just because of who we are and what family we grew up in or which part of which country and so on. So as we're working with people, especially if we're training and equipping people, which is what and trust is all about what might be some ways that we can identify that we've just hit a cultural difference. And then what are some things we might do to handle that?[00:24:51] Jerry Wells: Actually, for me returning to America was like coming back to a new culture, a new country, almost the impact of social media, new terminology, different values. So I've experienced confronting some aspects of our American culture, which is my native culture. But as a somewhat new culture, some things that I have dealt with in that context of mine that may apply to Americans and who have always been in an American context are things like, don't rush to give up your values or to judge the new values. Don't rush to give up your practices or to judge the practices that are new to you are different from you. I think the emphasis I would make on that is don't rush, don't be too quick to come to conclusions and make judgments. But listen and ask questions about what you're about, what you're experiencing, try to gain understanding of other people and where they're coming from.[00:26:10] Laurie Lind: I'm wondering, is it ever possible to almost over contextualize oneself? And I had given you the example if, if I was, I'm a, I'm a older than middle aged Scandinavian background woman. If I was to go to the inner city, try to work with teenagers, for example. Okay, I'm not ever going to really think or act or perceive the world like uh I don't know some inner city teenager obviously and who would I think I was and they would be to like, okay, that lady is crazy if she's trying to be like be like us. So where's the, how do we, I don't quite know how to ask this but do we ever over contextualized or are there times when it's kind of silly or not even a good idea to contextualize who we[00:27:00] Jerry Wells: are? Laurie, I doubt that we can over contextualize, but I think we can wrongly contextualize. Maybe some of the ways you've hinted at and what you said are areas in which we wrongly contextualize. We don't have to uh duplicate all of the practices of the people around us and the ones that we work with. I think we need to avoid artificiality and certainly we need to avoid unbiblical practices. But we, we can't try to be who we are not. And if we try to imitate say the youth culture, and when we're a generation to older than that youth culture, I think that smells of artificiality and won't be received altogether. Well, so we need to be authentic. We need to be ourselves but to be ourselves in the Lord. And that includes valuing and loving people, love crosses so many barriers, build such good bridges. If we really love people were using a language that is universal and people will respond to that language. Of course, wrongly, contextualizing would be being unbiblical. We don't want to be biblical. So we want to follow the Bible, the Bible and we want to trust people and having said that, I think we ought to just dive into the culture that we are now with or we are now working with. We ought to try to get to know those people, their language, their history, their literature, and other aspects of who they are and why they are who they are get to know them immerse yourself in their culture but avoid wrongly intellectualizing. So[00:29:08] Laurie Lind: back to entrust a little bit, we're all about training and equipping leaders to serve well in the context of the local church. And what dangers might there be in people of one culture? Say yourself as an American be showing up in Romania for example and trying to train leaders in various church denominations in Romania. Like might you inadvertently convey some things or teach some things that really don't fit that culture or aren't the best for those people you're seeking to train[00:29:45] Jerry Wells: like it or not. We do tend to bring our own baggage wherever we go. So when we go into a new culture, we do bring our own baggage and that colors our teaching and our training often and consequently, we could be passing on say Western style and Western models rather than one that really fits their culture. So, so there are dangers that you recognize just in the question that you posed. What we probably need to do is try to evaluate ourselves. And this is somewhat repetitious in terms of what we've already been through in our interview, but try to come to grips with who we are and who they are, what our culture is and what their culture is. Also, we need to evaluate just what we want to impart and sometimes things like models in ministry are not specifically what we want to impart we want to impart principles and values biblical principles and biblical values so that they can make their own models, their own constructs in their own cultures, whether that's in terms of how they disciple or in terms of what music they sing. At the same time, I think it's well worth saying that no, no less than the Apostle Paul said he tried to be all things to all people. We want to try to acculturated and contextualized as best as possible with the people that we work with. But we want to be thoroughly biblical in the process. And of course, the Apostle Paul was thoroughly biblical in how he approached his ministry.[00:31:41] Laurie Lind: In your article that you wrote again, everybody needs to read that article. But you did say towards the end that through your years in Romania, you really came to appreciate the beautiful diversity of Jesus church. I love that. How can we celebrate our cultural differences? And at the same time, I understand, you know, how to serve one another well, and how to kind of come together in the midst of our differences in the church.[00:32:09] Jerry Wells: I think we really need to understand that we don't need to renounce our cultural differences. Unity doesn't depend on culture, the unity that we have only through culture is not true unity. Certainly, it's not true unity among Christians. So we don't have to renounce all our cultural differences. But at the same time time, it's good to be open minded to what is culturally different in the target culture, the culture to which we have come. And um that can be so beautiful and helpful and meaningful. It's never been a part of my culture, but it's a part of their culture and I can learn from it. I can grow from it. I can adapt from it. So we need to be a learner. As we approach a new culture. We need to let that new culture be a teacher. Obviously, again, not the absolutely authoritative teacher but a teacher from which we can learn and grow. We need to approach a new culture with the idea, I have things to grow through my contact and involvement with people in this culture. And we do, I had a lot to learn. Still do.[00:33:36] Todd Randall: You've been listening to Entrust Equipping Leaders and a conversation between host Laurie Lynd and today's guest, Jerry Wells. Be sure to read Jerry's article about contextualizing ourselves to new cultures. The link is in your show notes and if you missed it, do go back to our previous episode with Dr Craig Ott of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, full of insights about developing intercultural competency. Next time we dive into an academic topic with real life implications for teachers and educators: constructivism. Make sure you hit the subscribe button on this podcast, so you don't miss any upcoming episodes
Our culture is the water in which we swim. How can we become aware of the nature of that water, especially as we dive into a new pool of water? Dr. Craig Ott shares insights from life and from his book, "Teaching and Learning Across Cultures."
Helpful links
Dr. Ott's book: http://www.bakerpublishinggroup.com/books/teaching-and-learning-across-cultures/405211
Dr. Ott's Entrust Equipping Leaders article: https://www.entrust4.org/post/developing-intercultural-competency
Entrust: www.entrust4.org
Transcript
Speaker Name | Start Time | Text
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;00;05;29 | My wife and I lived for 21 years in Germany. We spent a lot of time in other countries while we were there. And part of my role at Trinity allows me to be spending six or seven weeks a year doing international work. So I've since been to over 40 different countries.
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;00;23;00 | Today's guest on Entrust Equipping Leaders is Dr. Craig Ott of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. Today's topic is contextualizing ourselves as we serve in new cultures so that we can do excellent kingdom work for God's glory. Let's join our host, Laurie Lind, and Dr. Ott.
Laurie Lind | 00;00;43;02 | Welcome to Entrust Equipping Leaders and I'm really happy to have the guest I have today who I've known a bit in the past and nice to get reacquainted again. Dr. Craig Ott. Dr.. ... Well, what should I call you, sir?
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;01;00;10 | Well, we're old friends. You can call me Craig.
Laurie Lind | 00;01;05;24 | Well, our topic today is about contextualization somewhat or developing intercultural competency, which was the title of the article we published on our Web site, thanks to you, which was, in fact, an excerpt from your book, Teaching and Learning Across Cultures. So mostly what we're talking about is, is coming from that book, but also, I would guess from your own personal experience, what have you experienced?
Laurie Lind | 00;01;35;27 | Where have you lived and what have been your experiences cross-culturally?
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;01;39;23 | Yeah. So as far as living internationally, my wife and I lived for 21 years in Germany. That's really the only other place we've lived for an extended period of time outside of the U.S. Now we spent a lot of time in other countries while we were there. And part of my role at Trinity allows me to be spending 6 to 7 weeks a year doing international work.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;02;03;13 | So I've since been to over 40 different countries doing teaching or consulting or some kind of ministry on the ground. Usually those kinds of assignments are only for a week or two. So that's that's kind of my experience.
Laurie Lind | 00;02;20;27 | And I'm just thinking we're going to be talking about how we can become more sensitive and how we can even sort of adjust our own behaviors and responses in a new culture. This is off the cuff, but do you have a story from your early days overseas where maybe you committed a cultural faux pas?
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;02;41;16 | Oh, there's plenty of them, particularly our early years in Germany. You know, when you're you're actually living in the country, not just visiting for a short period, you're trying to do life a lot more. And, oh, there's there's little things like, oh, the way you might do your shopping and pick the fruit with your own hands and you're not supposed to use your hands.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;03;06;24 | You're supposed to ask somebody to do it for you or a big thing in many countries, particularly in Asia, you don't use your left hand for anything except one thing. And I happened to be left handed. Now, usually they will recognize, well, you know, you're a foreigner or whatever, but it still is probably a little uncomfortable for them when I will inadvertently use my left hand for all kinds of things that I shouldn't be doing.
Laurie Lind | 00;03;38;10 | Yeah, I can imagine. I had several faux pas as myself living overseas. Yeah. It certainly wakes you up to your own culture, which is something that you said that really struck me in your article. That culture is something like water. We're almost not aware of of the environment that is our own culture because it's just what we're used to.
Laurie Lind | 00;04;02;12 | So if we're not even aware of like our own culture, if I'm not aware of what makes me how I respond to life because it's just part of my whole life, how can I even learn about it or even begin to discover what what the water is like that I swim in?
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;04;18;29 | Well, you really don't until you jump out of the aquarium. Yes. And then you find out, oh, there actually is another world out there. And so that's usually the best way to begin to find out, you know, what your own culture is about is by being either around other people or ideally to actually go live somewhere else for a while.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;04;40;12 | And then you begin to notice just how many things are you just thought are normal, are not for other people normal at all. So really just that personal exposure is is kind of a starting point.
Laurie Lind | 00;04;54;05 | So would you say it's almost not possible to discover my own culture while still living in my own culture?
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;05;03;01 | Well, except for the fact that if your culture is in the United States, then your culture is a pretty mixed culture. You know, the United States is a very, very diverse country. And the number of first generation immigrants that we are experiencing now with immigration and so on is the highest it's been for a century, really. It's. And so we are encountering people from other cultures regularly, just in the supermarket or going about daily life in the United States.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;05;35;23 | So it's there. But for most many of us, it's sort of our own turf. And so we're not paying as closer attention to it or it's not really essential for us to get by. Whereas when you actually live somewhere else, well, then it becomes essential that you are alert to those cultural differences.
Laurie Lind | 00;05;52;29 | One thing you said in your article, you said that learning to navigate life in another culture means resisting our intuitions and restraining or actually and retraining our natural reflexes. How on earth does a person resist their own intuition or retrain their own natural reflexes?
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;06;14;20 | Well, sometimes it's sort of like putting your hand on a hot stove and you get burned. So you make a mistake. And then it was a painful mistake or it hurt a relationship. And then you go, Oh, okay, I need to retrain myself not to respond that way. A typical thing would be how how do you deal with a conflict situation in a relationship or decision making process?
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;06;42;06 | And you've just sort of moved along in the way you always thought the normal way to make decisions was, and you didn't realize it, but you were offending people. Well, you know, that usually will end up having a pretty negative effect on yourself and your relationships. So some of it is just going to be the negative consequences that will teach you.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;07;02;21 | But just being self aware and saying and and being a good observer and then just trying to catch yourself where you're having sort of an immediate intuitive response to a situation. But some of it we just were just not aware of until we make the mistake or somebody else tells us.
Laurie Lind | 00;07;24;06 | Yeah, that's maybe a more gentle way to find some of that out. In your article, you just basically overall, you talked about intercultural competency. So what does that actually mean?
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;07;36;29 | So basically, we're talking about the ability to relate to people who are from a different culture than your own, whether you're living in that other culture or just a next door neighbor. But basically, the ability to relate to other people, well from another country culture, to communicate clearly to to be able to get your thoughts across in a way that are not offensive.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;08;01;11 | It's the ability to be able to accomplish tasks, especially if you're where the the dominant environment is, not your culture. How do I get things done here? How do I influence people? How do I build relationships? And so on? So it's basically you're just that ability not to merely survive. So I know how to shop, I know how to basically get by, but how to thrive, not just surviving, but thriving.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;08;28;19 | So I actually have rewarding relationships. I actually am effective in getting things done here. So that's what we're talking about with intercultural competency.
Laurie Lind | 00;08;37;16 | And so when we get to intercultural competency, you described some aspects self awareness, attitude and experience. Maybe you could describe each of those a little bit and practical ways that we can work toward developing each of those things.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;08;56;00 | Yeah, and they're all kind of interrelated, but self-awareness just starts out with how, you know, what do I understand even about my own culture? Of course, if you're that fish, that's what then that's a little hard to answer. But becoming just aware a little bit more of how I'm reacting to people from another culture. A lot of times that may be frustration or even anger or bewilderment.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;09;27;19 | Sometimes it's joy. You go, Wow, this is really cool. But just becoming aware of even your emotional responses and how, you know, this is what we talk about culture shock sometimes, where you've been living in another culture for a while and then it just doesn't feel right. You get homesick. Just becoming aware of all these emotions and responses is part of it.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;09;48;18 | And then you become more self aware of what my values are, what's important to me, and what maybe the host culture, what's important to those people, or even my next door neighbor. So that would be sort of the self-awareness. Then of course, the attitude is, I'm going to have to enter this other culture, not with a sense I, I am always right.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;10;11;17 | America is always best or whatever your home country is. But I'm going to be a learner here. I am going to give people the benefit of the doubt that when they do something that seems offensive to me, maybe for them that's the kind thing to do. It just didn't seem like it to me. And so I give people the benefit of the doubt.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;10;32;02 | I'm teachable. I'm open. I realize different is not always bad. Different is just different. And sometimes there's good reasons why people do things differently. And the more I can kind of have that attitude of openness, then the more I'm going to patiently try and really understand what's going on. I don't have to agree with everything, of course, but but I at least try and understand people.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;11;00;12 | So that's that attitude of learning and humility. And then for experience, it's really getting out of your bubble. And there's a real temptation, especially if you're living overseas, to stay where it's comfortable. So you're sort of hanging out with other expats, other people who are like you, and you talk about how cool life in America was and all those favorite foods you can't get, and you know that that's fine.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;11;28;18 | But if you stay in those kind of bubbles, you're not going to develop that competency to be able to go out and relate to the people of the general culture. And that same tendency to want to withdraw can also be with my next door neighbor, who's maybe a first generation immigrant. Their English is not great and I'm a little nervous.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;11;47;03 | You know how do I relate to these people, what I'm going to talk about? And so even they're just having the experience of sort of overcoming my inhibitions a little bit, reaching out. Most people are a lot friendlier than we give them credit for. And so so that's kind of just getting the experience and I compare it sometimes to playing a game.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;12;11;14 | You know, if you learn a new game card game, a board game, you know, there's the rules, but then there's how you really play the game, right? The strategy of how you really win and what are you going to do. You're going to lose the first few times. If it's, you know, if it's a game, that's not just a little chance.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;12;27;26 | You know, it takes a while. You learn how to play the game. And that's a little bit like culture. It's a learning, a new game. There's new rules out there and you're going to make mistakes. You're not always going to win, but if you stay with it, be patient, you're going to do well. And just to give us sort of a practical example of this, one thing that really irks a lot of Americans or a lot of Westerners is punctuality issues.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;12;54;14 | And in many parts of the world, people do not put the same value on arriving at the clock a minute or the event was designated. They don't consider that being late necessarily. But but our understanding of lateness is not only matter is 10 minutes late, it's a half hour late. But there's a deeper value. So if I'm just going on the emotions, what am I doing?
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;13;20;21 | Somebody is always coming late to the meeting. I'm saying, Hey, you're wasting my time. You're not being respectful of me and my time. And so I put a motive on that. I put a value judgment on that. Well, sometimes in certain cultures, if you show up for a meeting on time, that means that person is treating it as a business meeting.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;13;44;25 | If you're a friend, you show up late because we're friends. So a person showing up late could actually be a positive sign in that person's way of looking at things. Now, I'm going to have to be teachable. I may still not like it, but I at least understand it and guess what? I might just learn that sometimes slowing down and taking your time and not being so uptight and not letting the clock rule my life.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;14;18;04 | Maybe that's not always a bad thing, and that's how we become enriched. And we actually can grow through these cross-cultural encounters. And that's where we can really be enriched as people through these encounters. So it's not just a matter of getting along, but how can I become a better person, a more balanced person? Maybe not that I do everything the other people do, but I look at myself differently.
Laurie Lind | 00;14;47;27 | That makes me think of something, you know, how would I understand? Like, say, someone is always coming late to a class or a Bible study or something. How would I find out that to them? That's that's a sign of warmth and friendship and comfort, especially if that's the culture they swim in and they don't even really know why they come, right?
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;15;09;22 | Yes, right. And if seen and here's where the conflicts get complicated, because I find myself getting sort of frustrated and kind of irritated with this person and they don't have a clue why, and they just think I'm an irritable person. Mm hmm. So what you need to do, usually when you enter a new culture, especially, you're going to be there for a while.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;15;31;05 | You need a cultural insider. So if I go to Mexico, it's going to be a mexican, a cultural insider who can help me out, and I have to give them permission. I say, You know what? I'm like a little child here. I don't know how to do things. I don't know what counts as late and what's not and etc. Please help me.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;15;51;02 | I'm at your mercy. I need somebody to tell me when I'm doing something that's really offensive, but I don't know it. Using my left hand for all kinds of things. Maybe. So will you please coach me on this? Now, in a lot of cultures, they will not want to correct me. They will not want to say something negative.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;16;10;07 | So you really have to give them a lot of permission. So that's usually one of the most important things is to get really a trusted insider and to just make yourself vulnerable. So please, please tell me. And then when you encounter something you don't understand, you can go to that person and say, hey, you know, I observed this the other day and I didn't understand why why it happened this way.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;16;32;16 | And and that person trying to kind of explain to you what was going on. So having a couple of good cultural insiders like that is really a key.
Laurie Lind | 00;16;44;10 | I like that.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;16;45;08 | Tendency. Pardon me? Our tendency is to go to the other expense and you go to the other expat and say, gosh, people here are always late. And the other expert says, Yeah, boy, I think that's terrible. That frustrates me. You don't always get the answer. That's going to be helpful.
Laurie Lind | 00;17;02;03 | MM Yes, true. The Insider and the insider might be also need to be fairly self aware to start thinking, yeah, why is it that everybody around that I've grown up with we 2:00 means to 15 to us or something. We may not know why, but maybe they'll do some discovering as well along the way. In terms of all that to we as we're entering another culture and we want to fit in with thoughts and behaviors and responses and handling things.
Laurie Lind | 00;17;34;23 | And yet what if what if some of those things are what we really understand to not be biblical things that that are part of the culture that you're in, but they really aren't quite right in your understanding of the Bible. How do you how do we handle that kind of a thing?
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;17;55;19 | You're right. And we have to realize that every culture has the beautiful and the positive and every culture has the ugly and the negative. We are in a fallen world. And so whether it's American culture or some other culture, there's always going to be some good there. There's always going to be some some bad from God's perspective. Well, of course, we want to stay as close to the scripture as possible.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;18;23;03 | Most people do not just set out to do evil things, but there's usually some kind of a half truth in there that makes it plausible. So so we want to go back to Scripture and the way that I think the best way, especially if I'm an outsider to deal with these things that I have to be very practical here.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;18;40;27 | This is what I've done. Let's take cohabitation, fornication, if you will. This is just considered normal in many parts world. In the United States, it's considered pretty normal. I've met people who said, why would you ever get married without first having lived together and had sexual relations? That would be unwise to do not do that. So that's considered just normal.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;19;04;24 | So what's the approach you take? I think biblically speaking it is sinful, but instead of me just sort of coming in and saying, okay, listen, that's not what God wants, I like to pray for that couple, let's say, and what I've done is I've given them some Bible passage to read and I say, Well, you read these passages, will you pray about them?
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;19;25;24 | What? God, you know what you think God is telling you here? And I actually have had it happen were I went for a follow up visit after that and they said, does that say what I think it says? Because we probably ought to get married if it's saying what we think it says. That's what God's telling you. You better do it.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;19;44;25 | So you're sensing this is what God wants and not what God wants. And I think that's a real temptation for us as cultural outsiders to come in and be quickly critical. And many of these things are worthy of critique. But it's important for people to sense this is what God wants, not what the outsider wants. This is what the Bible teaches, is what the Holy Spirit is convicting by heart about the right thing to do.
Laurie Lind | 00;20;11;03 | Yeah, take it to Scripture and let the God's Word and the Holy Spirit speak into those things that that's good.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;20;19;08 | Yeah. There's no guarantee. Just as in our own lives, we will always obey. But. But this is, I think, the better starting point.
Laurie Lind | 00;20;27;13 | Speaking of cultures, a lot of what interest has is coming into a new environment, networking with people, finding out what are the gaps in leadership training here, and then how can we come alongside you and develop a system that works for your people in your culture? Well, to train and equip men and women to be pastors or to lead in the local church in some way and and seeking to keep it culturally relevant, the whole system from the beginning, at the same time in trust places a high value on small groups and kind of facilitated learning question based learning.
Laurie Lind | 00;21;07;15 | So in some cultures, some of that concept, we have introduced it and in certain cultures that are very authoritarian, where the teacher just talks and the students listen and it's rote and you spit it back out on a test. That's what they're kind of used to, even in the church or a small group. And one interest is bringing might seem countercultural, and yet it also seems to be biblical small groups asking questions.
Laurie Lind | 00;21;36;28 | How do we determine like if our methodology even is, is it offensive or is it even sinful to bring a methodology that we think works really well? But it sure is different for that culture. We're going to.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;21;51;05 | It's a great question because we do, particularly again in America, in Western culture, we put a lot of value on sort of a more discovery approach to learning, where the more a person can kind of reach their own conclusions, the more likely that is to really stick and be meaningful to them. And I think there is that's a legitimate pedagogical principle.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;22;16;12 | At the same time, we may be downplaying the value of of more didactic kinds of instruction. So I think there's a place for both. But like you say, many cultures there's going to be a tendency to to desire the one and not appreciate the other. So first of all, we have to be good listeners and sometimes we're as Americans, not very good listeners.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;22;41;26 | We want to be problem solvers, but we don't always listen very carefully to to what's going on, how people are perceiving what we're doing. So just to really enter in as a listener and making sure we're we're helping in a way that they feel is helpful sometimes national groups that they want to have a good connection to American because they think there will be other advantages than just the teaching.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;23;07;27 | So but in terms of actual teaching, you want to introduce those alternative methods we'll call that methods are not as familiar with it are a little strange to them. You want to introduce those with care. Otherwise they're just going to think, well, what kind of a teacher is this? He never gives us the answer when he knows the answer.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;23;26;13 | What's his problem? And so you'll have to clarify. This is the reason why I'm going to be teaching in this manner. I believe that you have the Holy Spirit, and I believe that God can guide you in His truth and that I'm not the only person here that that has the spirit of God. I might have some factual information about, you know, Bible history or something that you don't have, but so you have to make the reasoning of why you're approaching it in a certain way.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;23;59;24 | And you may have to do some compromises. I know there was one situation like that where the the students just said, we will not give you our opinion. You're the teacher. You tell us. And he just went back and forth with them and finally said, I'll make a deal with you. You read the text, you tell me what you think.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;24;18;02 | It means, that how that would apply to your culture. And after you've done that, I'll tell you what I think. So sometimes you have to be negotiate a little bit, but make it make it plausible and don't overwhelm people. It is possible, though. China has known Hong Kong as the kind of culture where people expect a lecture. But there's been for a couple of decades now, approaches to more problem based learning, which is not just tell the answer, but give students case case studies, problem solving assignments, where they actually learn that way.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;24;54;06 | And they found out that once students kind of overcome the initial resistance to it, they actually love it. So so there's good evidence that if we approach it well and don't just sort of have a shock effect where people don't understand what's going on, that we actually can help people develop other ways of learning.
Laurie Lind | 00;25;15;19 | And then even pick up those ways of learning and pass them on to others as well.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;25;20;29 | Well, if they have found it to be really helpful and then there's a much likely greater likelihood for them to use that when they teach. I mean, let's face it, we tend to teach the way we were taught. That's those are our role models. Now the expat teacher comes in and it's a bit of an anomaly. If every other teacher, they've had only lectures and that sort of thing, then while you're kind of the exotic one, they might tend not to want to imitate you as much because you're kind of exotic.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;25;51;07 | On the other hand, if you have a longer standing relationship, if it's more than just coming in for a short week or two, then there's a greater likelihood of them adopting some of those alternative teaching approaches.
Laurie Lind | 00;26;04;22 | What are some passages in the Bible that speak to these concepts of developing intercultural competency?
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;26;12;26 | Well, the probably the clearest one would be first Corinthians Chapter nine, starting verse 19. This is where Paul I won't read the whole thing, but Paul talks about, you know, becoming a Jew to the Jew, a Greek to the Greek. And the interesting thing he says is I became like one under the law, though I'm myself, not under the law to reach those under the law.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;26;32;24 | And then he says to those not having the law became like one, not having the law, though I'm not free from God's law. So what Paul is saying is all of this was for the sake of winning others for the gospel. So he's willing to change his lifestyle. But not compromise God's standard for him. So you have to have a conviction about really what God's standard for your own life is.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;26;56;18 | And that's going to come from God's word. But at the same time, in all those other negotiable issues, he's willing to make sacrifice. It must have been revolting for him to eat pork or shellfish. He'd never eaten it, and it was always told that was bad for you. He did this? Yeah. He was willing to to to make some sacrifice to to bend because it was for the sake of the gospel.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;27;21;18 | And yet he knew his convictions where there were points he's not going to compromise. So I think that's the clearest example. I mean, there are other ones that that are not quite that clear. But but yes, that's that's a good one.
Laurie Lind | 00;27;37;01 | So something about I've called itself contextualization, but maybe that's not quite the right term. But more developing intercultural competency is a very key part of our ministry in new cultures.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;27;51;06 | Well, that's actually I actually use a phrase similar to that when I teach, we talk a lot about contextualizing our message. So how do I make the gospel clear that another person understands it, but I need to contextualize myself. And that's exactly what you just said. How is my lifestyle? How am I demonstrating love in their love language as we like to say?
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;28;13;00 | How am I showing respect for them? How am I beautifying the gospel with my life? And that means I probably can't just do everything like I would in America. I'm going to have to make adjustments. So, yes, we contextualize our own lives as well as the message.
Laurie Lind | 00;28;29;11 | Well, Dr. Craig, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts about this and expanding on them. And I do want to encourage our listeners to find his article on our website in Trust for dot org. It's called Developing Intercultural Competency. It's an excerpt from the book, which is all explained there on the article. And so, Dr. Eid, thank you so much for your time and your wisdom today.
Dr. Craig Ott | 00;28;56;01 | Thanks for having me.
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;28;58;07 | Challenging and encouraging thoughts today from Dr. Craig Ott. How much are we willing to bend to be humble in order to understand and enter into a new culture, to serve people in that culture? If you'd like to read more on this topic, you can consult Dr. Ott’s article on our Entrust website or his book, Teaching and Learning Across Cultures.
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;29;20;06 | Find links to both in our show notes. Please take a moment to subscribe to this Entrust Equipping Leaders podcast. Next time our guest is Jerry Wells of Entrust. He'll describe life and ministry in Romania and the things he learned about contextualizing himself as he served God there. See you then.
Join Trish and Agi on their European tour, aimed at passing a leadership baton from an American to a Hungarian. Have a map handy, put on a little sunscreen and be prepared to travel vicariously with these two intrepid women, and to learn how they saw God's hand along the way.
Helpful links
Entrust https://www.entrust4.org
Entrust Equipping Women https://www.entrust4.org/equippingwomen
| Speaker Name | Start Time | Text
| Laurie | 00;00;04;03 | Hi, friends. Welcome to Entrust Equipping Leaders. I'm your host, Laurie Lind, and this week's episode is quite different. As you know, we have been featuring pairs of interviews with people who have written articles for us which you can find on our website about various aspects of training and equipping leaders in ministry situations. I've got more of those coming up, a couple of interviews about contextualization and about an adult learning theory called Constructivism with professors and people who serve God full time.
| Laurie | 00;00;41;11 | And even if you're not exactly training Christian leaders right now, there will be ideas for you right where you live and serve. And actually you might be doing more training than you even realize. So plan to keep listening. We release a new podcast episode every other Friday. Thank you for subscribing to entrust equipping leaders and sending a review.
| Laurie | 00;01;03;25 | Please keep those reviews coming, share the podcast with others and encourage them to subscribe as well. So today you are in for a treat right about this time of year. Late February we're getting a little tired of winter, especially if you live where I live, which happens to be North Dakota. And so we're going to get out of town for a little while.
| Laurie | 00;01;26;15 | Today, we're going to visit a bunch of countries in Europe following along with two interest women who did sort of a Paul and Timothy like learning and discipleship trip together. They're going to tell us some stories, funny ones, stories about food, travel mishaps and spiritual learnings along the way. So ready, everybody. Bags packed, passports in hand. Here we go.
| Laurie | 00;01;55;17 | So today's episode of Equipping Christian Leaders is a very different one and I think a pretty exciting one. I've got two guests today, one from the U.S., one from Hungary. And they have been on quite a journey that they're going to tell us about, which I think has lessons in it for all of us. So let's start off, if you could each please introduce yourself, because I can't always pronounce certain names correctly and tell us just where you live and how long you have served with Entrust
| Trish | 00;02;26;10 | My name's Trish Barrett. I currently live in Baltimore, Maryland, hoping to move to Blacksburg, Virginia, to be near family soon. And I have served with Entrust for about eight years. But I've known about Entrust for probably almost 20 years.
| Agi | 00;02;46;25 | And my name is Agi Szekely, and I live in Budapest, Hungary. I've been with Entrust since 2019, but I was introduced to the trainings two years ahead of there. I working with equipping women mostly, and yeah, just doing the trainings and organizing trainings.
| Laurie | 00;03;10;26 | Well, thank you for that. Now, the I think it's important I hope you aren't offended if I ask you both how old you are. It might have a factor in our story, if that's okay with you.
| Trish | 00;03;21;19 | I just turned 68 last week.
| Agi | 00;03;24;14 | And I'm 45.
| Laurie | 00;03;26;08 | All right. So we have a 68 year old and a 45 year old one from the US. One from Hungary. And the two of you went on quite an epic journey. Augie, tell us, how many countries did you visit over the course of how much time?
| Agi | 00;03;41;25 | So I would have visited eight countries in six weeks. We started off and of all August and went onto tens of October.
| Laurie | 00;03;52;25 | Eight countries in six weeks around basically around the continent of Europe. So, Trish, how did. What was the idea? How did this trip come about and what were the goals and the purposes.
| Trish | 00;04;04;12 | We have to go back to when I first took on the role of European regional team leader for equipping women with and trust. Our overall director at that point had challenged me and I said, But I don't know the women. And so after a training in Switzerland, we were both there and we did a shorter version of this trip.
| Trish | 00;04;32;24 | I think it was maybe four or five countries in 2 to 3 weeks. So the idea for meeting people in person actually came about when I took over my role. So now I am transitioning. I'm getting older. I don't feel I can do quite as much travel as I did in the past. Plus, our goal has always been to have a European in charge of the European regional team.
| Trish | 00;05;03;07 | And I just felt that trip with Corrie had done so much for me that I wanted to do that kind of turning the role over to Augie the same way.
| Laurie | 00;05;15;11 | Agi, how did you feel about this whole idea when you heard you might travel for six weeks around the entire continent of Europe with your friend Trish?
| Agi | 00;05;23;29 | Well, I was excited. I love travel. Plus, it wasn't six weeks away from home for me because I got to spend some time in Hungary almost. I think it was about eight days because it was two weeks, but we took a weekend trip by a train from Prague.
| Laurie | 00;05;46;00 | Aha. That's a city that has, is near and dear to my heart. I got to live there for a while. So before the trip, Agi, what excited you or what made you a little bit nervous?
| Agi | 00;05;58;14 | I was full of confidence, which later on turned out have had some basis. But not all of the basis is. But yeah, it was exciting to meet the ladies I have met online a couple of occasions to meet them in person and to actually it's always, not always, but sometimes it's surprising because you only see the head and the shoulders and sometimes it's surprising how they look.
| Agi | 00;06;29;20 | Sometimes it's just good to get the hug. So I was really, really looking forward to seeing all the ladies.
| Laurie | 00;06;38;03 | Were you nervous about any aspect of it?
| Agi | 00;06;40;14 | I feel really comfortable traveling within Europe. I have done it a lot of times and that's why my first mistake was a bad one, because I thought, Oh, we are going to be traveling in Europe. So I only need my I.D. So I left my passport at home and I realized that in Riga that we are in the United Kingdom, which is no longer in the European Union and no longer in the Schengen zone.
| Agi | 00;07;11;04 | So I had my passport period over to me, to Riga, but I missed my plane. So I had to go one day later. And that taught me a lot of humbleness because before so the other hiccup we had in Riga was that Tricia's luggage didn't come with her. And I was thinking my flight was so smooth and everything.
| Agi | 00;07;34;23 | I got there pretty nicely during the night, and then I was like, Oh yeah, I'm a European. I don't need to worry about this kind of travel hiccups and and I'm good. And then the Lord taught me a lot of humbleness and I had to ask for help for people to get into my apartment and couriered that passport over to me.
| Agi | 00;07;59;02 | So that was a learning I will not forget.
| Laurie | 00;08;02;07 | No, exactly. Well, I think let's talk about your trip in two parts. First of all, well, we'll talk about the Travelog part because you went to some interesting places and a little bit about like what you who you met and what you did there. And then at the end, I'd like to talk about your relationship and what you two learned as kind of partners in ministry together.
| Laurie | 00;08;26;02 | So let's start with you two. As you began, I believe you two met up in Latvia. Was that your first country together?
| Trish | 00;08;34;17 | Yes. Yes. And we had that scheduled because there was going to be a graduation of the first group who had been trained with the equipping equipment form E modules in all Latvia, all their national language. And we wanted to be president for that event. So it was a wonderful time. We had time with individuals, time with the small leadership team for Latvia, and then time with about 30 women for that graduation in Latvia.
| Trish | 00;09;10;15 | Now, not all of those were graduating. There were about eight or nine graduating, but others were there to support them or had taken different modules.
| Laurie | 00;09;19;26 | So what were some highlights of your time in Latvia for both of you?
| Trish | 00;09;23;29 | Either of you mind was seeing women there that I had trained in some of the earlier modules that still brings tears to my eyes to see the way they have grown spiritually grown in confidence, grown in leadership skills.
| Agi | 00;09;41;16 | It was great to meet up with the ladies I know and the there has been one lady who was taking us on a Sunday to church and translated for us and then we went for lunch together. We went to the seaside together and it was so great that we clicked from the first moment like we had a conversation and and then, you know, just a little bit after that, we were already great friends.
| Agi | 00;10;09;26 | So I appreciate these encounters and I appreciated the food. You will hear about this quite a lot because one of my highlights were the food all over and it was very good. It was very, very good.
| Laurie | 00;10;25;20 | In fact, I think we should just talk. Everybody wants to hear about food in different countries. And one of the highlights of visiting a new country is trying whatever their special food is. So what did you have there, Augie, and what did you love to eat?
| Agi | 00;10;40;07 | Mostly potatoes and meat, but in certain ways prepared in a certain way with a lot of for us national soul. So that was that was lovely. Plus, they have a very similar version of a salad, which my mom, she's from Poland, which my mom is making in the spring. So that was really special. So every time we went to the restaurant, they had that salad.
| Laurie | 00;11;08;08 | Would that be the one cause shocks qui sont? No.
| Agi | 00;11;12;15 | I'm not sure. So I don't think so. Yeah. The restaurant was ladle and the salad was lettuce and radishes. Also dill. And it was all in sour cream.
| Laurie | 00;11;27;22 | Oh, okay. We'll have to look it up. I know. I've read some funny things that Latvians write about themselves, and they always say when in doubt, add dill. So they must have a lot of dill in a lot of their dishes in Latvia. What else about the country or the culture? Did either of you enjoy trips? What were what are some of your favorite aspects of that country?
| Trish | 00;11;50;00 | Laura You and I have been there together, so why are the things that you will remember is that Riga, the capital where we stayed, was such a walkable city, though Augie and I, we needed transportation to the church and to the big event and from the airport. But other than that, we walked almost everywhere and it's a beautiful city.
| Trish | 00;12;14;26 | I've really started telling people it's one of my favorite cities in Europe.
| Laurie | 00;12;19;07 | Yeah, Latvia is a lovely country, right on the Baltic Sea. So as you said, you are so glad to go to the ocean for a little bit to the seaside and put your feet in the water maybe. Or was it to call?
| Agi | 00;12;29;25 | It was very cool. It was very cold and rainy and windy, especially the first day we went out for a walk, but we only got to a coffee shop and then the rain just didn't start. It was raining heavily. So we went back to the apartment and we have not dare to go out in that trade. But yeah, we couldn't swim.
| Agi | 00;12;59;13 | But we all on on the beach.
| Laurie | 00;13;02;27 | That's so nice. At least that. So from Latvia. What country did you go to next?
| Agi | 00;13;09;04 | United Kingdom.
| Laurie | 00;13;10;11 | Tell us about what happened there. Let's talk about both ministry wise and what you enjoyed about that country. Well, countries, United Kingdom, multiple countries.
| Agi | 00;13;20;13 | No, we were only in London, actually, so that. Exactly because we had a trip to Oxford. But what I really enjoyed was getting to know our hosts. We had accommodation, a young couple was hosting us and they were a great couple and they shared my food dinners. So we had we weekly, we had a great time together. We met with some ladies and we hope to have some training for them, most probably either full online or starting online and finishing up in person.
| Laurie | 00;14;02;28 | Well, because at this point in time, as we record this interview, interest hasn't had officially any ministry training happening in the UK, is that correct? So part of your trip here to come to this part of the world? The UK was a bit pioneering though. What about what? What were highlights ministry wise or relationship wise with people there?
| Laurie | 00;14;25;20 | You said they were foodies, they were warm. You enjoyed them a lot. What were some of your interaction like with them?
| Trish | 00;14;32;17 | Again, tell them about what you cooked for them.
| Agi | 00;14;36;25 | Yeah, I made them this polish stuff. Pasta with pierogi. Yeah. I've made three different batches and everyone seemed to enjoy the output, so that was good.
| Laurie | 00;14;49;17 | I love the international flavor of this girl. Yeah, actually, you are half Hungarian and half Polish, right?
| Agi | 00;14;56;16 | That's correct. Yeah.
| Laurie | 00;14;58;19 | So you bring Polish food to the UK and your hosts, were they British?
| Agi | 00;15;04;21 | American?
| Laurie | 00;15;05;24 | Oh, they're Americans who live in the UK. All right. So did you have some interactions with Brits there, too?
| Trish | 00;15;11;22 | We didn't have a lot of British interactions. We met some through a church that we attended with our hosts and it just seemed that the direction we thought we would go and be with Brits a lot, it all of our contacts were internationals.
| Laurie | 00;15;30;20 | Well, there we go. That's part of this whole trip is some things you thought might go one way, actually went a different way. So let's talk about that. I know already early in this trip last year, by the time you've been to Latvia in the UK, you guys have encountered, as you would say, some hiccups with documentation or luggage.
| Laurie | 00;15;53;20 | Just tell us a little bit about that trip. I know that no trip ever does go as planned. And trips, you definitely had some hiccups that maybe God use. Tell us about those.
| Trish | 00;16;04;02 | Well, I know that I had expected to have my luggage and a couple of days, but then there was a strike of Lufthansa pilots, which I did not get luggage for six days. The ones that had my clothes in it, I had carried on a lot of Bibles because we were giving those as gifts to the graduates of the training in Latvia.
| Trish | 00;16;31;00 | Normally I would have carried on extra clothes, but I wanted to make sure those Bibles made it. So it was quite interesting to wash out my clothes and have to sit around in my raincoat because I didn't even have pajamas to sit around in and out. It was yes, it was very interesting. And as I said, it was a humbling experience to wear the same thing, clean or not, for six days.
| Trish | 00;17;01;15 | I don't think I've ever done that before in my life.
| Laurie | 00;17;04;28 | So that was most of your time in Latvia. You really didn't have a change of clothes. The day.
| Trish | 00;17;09;23 | I left, I had a change of clothes.
| Laurie | 00;17;11;15 | For goodness sake. Okay. So that yeah, that's ongoing. And then again, you were dealing with this problem. Could you even get well, you could go to Latvia without your passport, but then you weren't able to get into the UK. So did you have your passport couriered to you in LAX?
| Agi | 00;17;27;04 | Yeah, yes. Yes. The good thing was that that host was very flexible about it. She said, you can stay as long as you need this. This is a lady I've met in Hungary. She was here studying and then she went back to Riga and she said, Whenever you come to Riga, I will toast you. And she bought this apartment we were staying in and she was just renovating, so we had the place to our own and she was very kind.
| Agi | 00;18;03;29 | She furnished it with cosmetics, food, everything was there.
| Laurie | 00;18;11;07 | Wow. How kind. That's. And this was the Latvian lady. Mm. Well, fortunately, your passport arrived in time for you to go as scheduled over to the. No.
| Agi | 00;18;22;29 | No. Another scheduled one day later. So I had to get another ticket.
| Laurie | 00;18;28;03 | Mm hmm. So just in these first two adventures, the luggage in the passport, you both had lessons in humility, it sounds like. But did you see God use those hiccups in other ways?
| Agi | 00;18;41;25 | I don't think these ones. But one other hiccup is coming, which God used trees in magical. I mean, it was just such a special way.
| Laurie | 00;18;53;00 | Okay, we'll get to that hiccup. I think I might know, but I want to hear that story. So after your time in the UK or any other highlights, I mean, what did you also love about the UK?
| Trish | 00;19;04;04 | Well, highlight in some sense is we actually were there when the queen died, when Queen Elizabeth died, and so we had to walk some that next day after her death to find a store for some items. We made it and we walked on toward the palace and saw all the people grieving, all the little children with their flowers to lay at the gates of it was it was a very moving and emotional time to be in in London during that process.
| Laurie | 00;19;40;22 | Of all things. And little could you have possibly had known you would be there at that historic moment.
| Trish | 00;19;47;07 | Right. And that caused us actually, one of the things that worked out was I told Auggie she had a very early flight. We were on separate flights to Portugal, and she had a very early flight. And I said, I think I'll check and see if we can get a hotel at the airport so we don't have to be nervous about you getting transportation because so many people were pouring into London.
| Trish | 00;20;13;20 | Transportation was tough. It ended up that just worked out beautifully that we were there because the the train we took, the day we even went, was delayed by a couple of hours. I think people were borrowing phones and chargers to try and change their flights. And here we were just going to a hotel. We didn't have to be worried about that because the next day we were late.
| Trish | 00;20;39;15 | So God, I think really placed that thought in my head and we were very thankful we did it that way.
| Laurie | 00;20;46;00 | And so country number three on our travel on here is Portugal. All right, let's pick up the Travelog part. What was amazing about Portugal, whether this is scenery, culture, food, what did you guys love about Portugal?
| Agi | 00;21;02;03 | Yeah, the food again was excellent. Our colleagues cooked for us typical Portuguese things. But as we went, we her to a local restaurant that was great and local cafes. The highlight for me was obviously meeting with the ladies. But more than that, she took us to a market like a local market. They sold all sorts of things. That was really special.
| Agi | 00;21;29;21 | I enjoyed that time.
| Laurie | 00;21;32;04 | And you say typical Portuguese food she cooked for you. What would that have included?
| Agi | 00;21;37;10 | It was a face to what she did, so we were really short time there and we ate out also some. So she made for us a stew.
| Laurie | 00;21;48;10 | And what were some highlights about this country for your church?
| Trish | 00;21;52;11 | Neither of us had ever met any of the women in that country before. When Cory and I had made our trip, we were not going into Portugal. So meeting these women was just a highlight. And the the leader of the interest work there, that three or four different coffee times for us to meet various people. So we didn't have one large group we were with, we were with one woman at a time, three women or four women just sitting around in a cafe, either eating a snack and drinking coffee or just drinking coffee.
| Trish | 00;22;33;29 | It was so special to see the women who had had some of the training and were interested in taking more. The women who had had a couple of trainings and our CO facilitating because this is a new work and when you have a new work and people need to be taught in Portuguese, then we get the other women involved very quickly, which is what was happening.
| Trish | 00;22;58;23 | So it was very exciting to meet those women.
| Laurie | 00;23;02;11 | In fact, I have to confess my ignorance. I don't think I'm aware of the name of who's heading up the work in Portugal.
| Trish | 00;23;08;24 | Foreign Trust B is actually not with interest. She is with Greater Europe Mission and her name is Nancy Zellers.
| Laurie | 00;23;17;01 | Oh, and does she?
| Trish | 00;23;18;06 | But she's lived in Portugal 2728 years.
| Laurie | 00;23;22;12 | So that highlights something else about interest. We definitely have partnerships with other ministries. It's not just us. And so women have already been taking courses in Portugal. In Portugal, she's Portugal. Portugal, because I know there's Brazilian Portuguese, but that's a bit of a different language.
| Trish | 00;23;42;20 | Yes. And they are doing translations. In fact, we met the translator that was one of the women that we met.
| Laurie | 00;23;50;12 | Were there any hiccups or adventures, happy or sad in Portugal for the two of you?
| Trish | 00;23;56;25 | I'll this is where the Portugal to Budapest is, where a big hiccup for me happened. Again again, we're on different flights because I have so much luggage, I can't really travel on one of those low cost airlines in Europe because I'd pay a fortune for my luggage and I'm traveling for six weeks. So I had two bags. When I left Portugal to go to Hungary, we didn't know it.
| Trish | 00;24;28;14 | So one of the hiccups was the conveyor belt had broken. So my luggage did not make that flight. So we didn't even know where it was for a while because it's just in the middle of this dark tunnel on a conveyor belt off. So I got to one of the places where I needed to change planes and I missed my connection.
| Trish | 00;24;55;15 | And that was actually in Austria to go from Vienna to Budapest. I missed the connection, but across the aisle for me was the man. I could hear him talking. I could tell he was missing his connection to Budapest as well. Behind us, somebody was leaning forward so I could tell she was missing hers. So the flight attendant says, when you get to Vienna, we're switching from Brussels Airlines to Austrian Airlines.
| Trish | 00;25;25;27 | Go try first to see if maybe the plane has been delayed and then talk to the gate agent while they did not hold the plane, even though there ended up being six of us, that missed it. And we go, the agent is not there. No one is there. I've stopped. I kind of took charge and stopped at another place and ask an agent, what do we do?
| Trish | 00;25;49;29 | And they told us, go downstairs near baggage claim and there is an office. So we go down and we get in line for that office and I'll meet and start talking and they decide they will put us up overnight and send us the next day or by bus or most of us had things we needed to do either attend the conference.
| Trish | 00;26;11;18 | I was meeting women with Auggie at church and after church, and so we said, We'll take the bus.
| Laurie | 00;26;18;28 | We're still in Austria at this time. We're still.
| Trish | 00;26;20;24 | In Austria. We're in the.
| Laurie | 00;26;22;07 | US trying to get to Budapest, Hungary, which isn't that far away, but okay.
| Trish | 00;26;28;07 | So a bus is a chartered bus for a tour group of elderly people because they had missed their flight, I think it was 39. They said, Hey, guys, put us on this bus with this driver who's obviously very tired because it's midnight by now and we're waiting on this 39 person group who we watch these older people pass us by, get on another bus and leave.
| Trish | 00;26;58;11 | What ended up their tour guide had booked them another bus.
| Laurie | 00;27;01;23 | So, you know, people how many are in your group, by the way, that are sitting on the bus with the.
| Trish | 00;27;06;06 | Die.
| Laurie | 00;27;07;04 | By.
| Trish | 00;27;07;12 | The guy? One guy took the hotel and the next day, like five of us are on us.
| Laurie | 00;27;13;13 | Five of you are sitting on the bus waiting for 39 elderly tourists who go right past you, get on a different bus and here you are still on your big empty bus with a tired driver.
| Trish | 00;27;23;18 | The Austrian gate agent person comes out and they don't believe us that they've already left, so they don't want our driver to take us. So we set for probably another hour to an hour and a half. So here are the five people on the bus. It's me. I'm the oldest. There is a Hungarian lawyer who had been to an ancient on track law conference.
| Trish | 00;27;52;23 | There are two people from Brussels, a woman who was born in South Africa, living in Brussels, and a man who was Arabic Lebanese living in Brussels. He was quite young and he was Muslim and a Hungarian woman living in Brussels, going home to visit her mother, who was a little closer to my age, probably in her 56 days.
| Laurie | 00;28;21;06 | Okay. That's our characters in this unfolding movie here. Okay.
| Trish | 00;28;25;16 | So the the lawyer, the next time the gate agents came out, he said, you must let this driver take off. We need to get to Budapest. You're the ones who said we could take the bus. It's not our fault you didn't communicate with that last group. You're. You're getting us to Budapest. So finally that I agree. So, again, 1 to 2 in the morning, we are traveling and we're talking.
| Trish | 00;28;56;11 | I ask the lawyer what kind of paper he presented at the ancient Greek, ancient Law Conference for contract law. And he starts explaining and everyone is listening. And it had to do with the difference between Greek contracts, free birth of Christ and post Birth of Christ, plus Latin contracts and the Word for hope because Greek contracts had that word.
| Trish | 00;29;29;15 | So he said they were making a contract for a future event and it was the same Greek word used in the Bible or hope. And then he said when it switched to Latin, they would only make contra checks for things that were what he called a certainty. And everyone's listening. And I was able to say, but that's the way the New Testament also uses that word for hope.
| Trish | 00;29;57;11 | It is a certain hope. And the Muslim guy leaned forward and it said real and we started talking about that certain hope that we have in Christ and found out the lawyer was Catholic and also a very well trained singer operatic voice. Of course the Muslim was Muslim by birth, but not so much by faith. The South African woman had been very hurt by parents who profess to be Christians, but three just mistreated her and the Hungarian woman just kept being quiet.
| Trish | 00;30;36;03 | She didn't say much, but it was a very interesting way to get to share the certainty of the hope we have in Jesus with a quite a different group of people. But the next interesting thing was the bus started to sweat and we realized our driver was going to sleep. So our Hungarian also spoke a little German. So between the Austrian, German and the German, the Hungarian spoke.
| Trish | 00;31;05;24 | He kept them awake for a while, but when that didn't work, he started singing. And so then we finally got him to stop and we tried to get him a cup of coffee. He didn't drink coffee, but he did have something. And the rest of the way he stayed awake. But it was a very interesting trip. And the Hungarian woman, of course, I was getting a little nervous about taking a taxi.
| Trish | 00;31;32;16 | Augie's place and four in the morning alone. Yeah. And she said, I know how the airport works. I will get you a taxi. I will make sure I know where you are going and I will get you the first taxi. So we all see you get in and everything. And she did that and when I got to Augie's, he actually my taxi driver got out, stood there, watched me meet up with the person I knew and go inside.
| Trish | 00;32;03;12 | So God really protected me and I feel like he used me in the lives of those strangers on the bus.
| Laurie | 00;32;11;00 | Also, didn't that Hungarian woman who hadn't said much? I think I heard this story. She had kind of an interesting comment at the end of all of this drama.
| Trish | 00;32;20;16 | He did, because, you can imagine people at ten, 11 at night missing their flight. They're very impatient. And I have missed a lot of flights before. And I know you just go with the flow and praise God. Even though I'm not a patient person, he gives me patience as a proof of the spirit. And she leaned forward and she said, You are a Christian, aren't you?
| Trish | 00;32;40;24 | Because I see you were the only one who was patient.
| Laurie | 00;32;44;13 | I love that. You know, you'll never know how God used you in the lives of those five. Interesting characters on that bus. Maybe that driver, too, we don't know. So at this point you arrive in Hungary and at this point we're going to stop. Take a little break. We'll be right back. This is the and Trust Equipping Leaders podcast.
| Laurie | 00;33;03;07 | Thanks for joining us. And we will be right back. You're listening to a special edition of Entrust Equipping Leaders. Today, my guests are Maggie S.K. from Hungary and Trish Barrett from the U.S.. Both are on staff with interest. Trish had served as our European director for Entrust Equipping Women, and she was in the process of passing the baton to her younger protege, Auggie.
| Laurie | 00;33;31;01 | So they took a trip around Europe to introduce Auggie to the women that Auggie would be working with and where new work might begin, and at the same time to just share, fellowship and grow in Christ through the ups and downs of traveling together for about six weeks. So far we've traveled with them to Latvia, then the UK, then Portugal.
| Laurie | 00;33;52;07 | And we have just arrived in Budapest, Hungary. So will you pick up the Travelog? Audie, we're knowing your own home country. What were the purposes of your time in Hungary together?
| Agi | 00;34;06;25 | There were a couple of people I really wanted to meet, and the lady we are working with was the was ministry coordinator in their new church, my church, it's an international church I go to and also medical facility later for the Tuesday evening Bible study. And while we were there, we went to the Tuesday evening Bible study, which is for ladies.
| Agi | 00;34;33;16 | And we also have a coed study on Wednesdays. But we managed to go that was the main thing to do. We met with a couple of ladies who are trainings just making connections and Trish wanted to meet my mom, so we managed to go and see my mom too.
| Laurie | 00;34;53;04 | Certainly because our as you take over our European Women's Ministries director, naturally, you already know people in Hungary because you live there. So this was so much for you to new people, but maybe it was it to introduce more people to the concept of what interest has to offer?
| Agi | 00;35;12;15 | Well, most of these people we've met know already about the interest not only from my migrants, but through the work of other colleagues who have been living in Budapest, like Mark and Beth from Biber or Barbara and Jeff Allen. And not to leave out Ronnie Stevens who pastored, then you'll be international Church for quite a while.
| Laurie | 00;35;37;03 | So yes, people in Budapest are somewhat aware of interest and and trust has a long history in the country of Hungary, of course. So. What were any either highlights or adventures on this part of the trip in Hungary for you too.
| Trish | 00;35;53;14 | One of the highlights was it really in some ways was a blessing that the pastor's wife was there by herself because she really was able to give Augie some ideas about presenting, equipping women, training to women of the church, some things that she thought. And she said it would go so well right now with the church's goal of looking at Danube International Church as kind of a place people pass through.
| Trish | 00;36;29;11 | So one of our goals is that they leave being equipped and your training just fits into that goal. So that that was so exciting to hear. I feel like she would have said it anyway had her husband been there, but the fact that he wasn't. We got to talk more about how you would plan something like that.
| Laurie | 00;36;51;24 | God orchestrates everything, even things that are not what we thought was going to happen, it seems. Were there any hiccups, this portion of your journey together?
| Agi | 00;37;02;09 | I don't think there were in Hungary. That's really it's my home turf, so I really know how things work. The hiccup, which I would like to mention, was coming back from France to Hungary. I mean, both of us, we needed to get to Paris through my shares. But our meeting was with the French team and there has been an accident involving a person.
| Agi | 00;37;30;23 | That's all we knew at that time, that we were waiting for the train and we had to go finally by bus a couple of hours later because never knew how and when the railway system is going to be back up. So we were in communication when everything was in French and I learned a little bit of French, but I didn't understand much.
| Agi | 00;37;58;05 | So we found the lady who had us to translate what is going on and we managed to call our host. And then she came and picked us up and we got a bit of rest, some dinner, and then we left for Paris at 1040 in the evening. Instead of being there in Paris at 7 p.m. last. The challenge was that the bus took 5 hours and the train would have taken two and a half.
| Agi | 00;38;31;02 | So was quite a difference. So another night ride for Trace and we managed to get into the hotel exhausted at 3 a.m. during the night. We had to wake up around seven seven ish the next day because at I planes were 5:00? I think so, yeah. That was quite a challenge.
| Laurie | 00;38;55;00 | Now, France. Was France your fifth country?
| Agi | 00;38;58;14 | No, that was the last one. But I just wanted to mention this was a very significant hiccup.
| Laurie | 00;39;05;02 | Another hiccup. So we've gone to Latvia, UK, Portugal, Hungary. And where did you go from Hungary.
| Trish | 00;39;12;12 | Hungary. We took that weekend in between to Prague. We have some women in Prague who have taken our trainings. One of them has finished and actually co facilitated, but we really don't have a lot going on with our specific equipping women modules in the way that we train women with them. And so we wanted to to meet with them to just kind of see where they were and also meet with another staff couple there who have lived there for years.
| Trish | 00;39;46;28 | And she has done wonderful trainings with a lot of the modules previous to this and I say previous in the sense that they have been revised a lot.
| Laurie | 00;39;58;07 | So by the way, when we say Prague, we're talking about the Czech Republic, which is a country near and dear to my heart. I lived there for quite some time. And and the couple you mentioned, I believe, are Gerry and Marilyn Saanich that have lived in that country for quite some time and, yes, served in many ways. So is there some hope to revive or to kind of restart some ministry training among with the equipping women ministries in the Czech Republic?
| Trish | 00;40;24;11 | Or maybe it's going to take more time. There are some things going on personally with some of these women that have had some of our trainings that they don't have the capacity right now. And I think it's so important to keep the relationships going and let them know they're important to us individually as sisters in the Lord, not just as someone who might carry on our training.
| Laurie | 00;40;49;20 | Absolutely. Well, let's move on. So you spent a bit of time in the Czech Republic. Then where did you go? What was country number six?
| Agi | 00;40;57;19 | So from the Czech Republic went back to Budapest. But after that, we both gone to Milan, Italy. We met with the Italian theme, which was great. They made sure that we also get to see Milan a little bit and we walked in a park and we were told that the dome square and we actually went back to go inside that big, big church.
| Agi | 00;41;29;02 | And it's beautiful. But the thing which we didn't really expect and didn't plan for was to take a day trip to Verona, where one or third ladies live. And it was just so special because she has showed us around. She took us to eat again and then we met, seen a couple of really interesting size like Romeo and Juliet balcony, supposedly, as legend has it, that was the place.
| Agi | 00;42;04;26 | But we could say that we were there.
| Laurie | 00;42;08;15 | Oh, Italy. So you were in Milan and Verona, primarily. And again, we do. We have some staff living in Italy at this point or simply who have lived there. And who were you actually meeting with in Italy?
| Agi | 00;42;23;10 | We've met with a lady called Cherie Castle, who has been organizing our European intensive training. She moved to Italy this summer.
| Laurie | 00;42;31;28 | We do have some trainings that take place already in Italian, is that correct? Yeah.
| Agi | 00;42;37;04 | Yeah. They they have a long history and they have a very well established. In fact, in December they are going to have another training in the Milan area.
| Laurie | 00;42;48;07 | I it's almost not even in to ask you what was what was interesting about the food in Italy is sort of like asking no yes Turkish.
| Trish | 00;42;59;13 | Fresh is excited about the Tierra Matthew and the pizza.
| Laurie | 00;43;03;15 | Will here.
| Agi | 00;43;04;20 | We had the pistachio tiramisu, which was very special.
| Trish | 00;43;08;25 | Yes. Yes. So I'm not normally much of a foodie, but I got excited about the pizza, the tiramisu.
| Laurie | 00;43;16;23 | And so what was different?
| Agi | 00;43;18;01 | Another thing which I saw, Joy, on Tricia's face was the scones in London. She got scones and made the truth, the lie on her face. She enjoyed them. Oh, all in the package. Yeah, that was that was neat to see.
| Laurie | 00;43;36;12 | So there were some culinary highlights for you, Trish. What was it about the pizza in Italy that you liked so much?
| Trish | 00;43;42;17 | Just the flavor of the sauce and, you know, the very thin crust. It was just wonderful.
| Laurie | 00;43;49;11 | Not exactly like take out in Baltimore. No.
| Trish | 00;43;55;00 | We want to say about one of the women in Italy. Oh, yes. The Italian women took me aside on one of her walks and she needed to work with a translator. And so she was telling me that she had come to Christ later in life. And that one of the things that was different from the religion she had been brought up in was that that religion was very much about how the religion affects me, not so much about what am I supposed to do to help others.
| Trish | 00;44;28;06 | And she said, I want to thank you for the equipping women training, which has really helped me to reach out to the women in my apartment building at my church. It was.
| Laurie | 00;44;41;26 | Just.
| Trish | 00;44;42;17 | A wonderful demonstration of the need in many places for the kind of training we do that equips women to be able to help other women. And the other thing, Glory, is that in Latvia, the first group of women, as you know, because you and I facilitated DBS for some of those women went through in English and then they translated and they went to a flat again in Italy.
| Trish | 00;45;13;13 | We were blessed to have two workers who had taken the training in English but were fluent in Italian. So the Italian work started in Italian and that, I mean, just put them way ahead of the curve in a lot of ways. So now we have trainings going on in Milan and in the Naples area and it's just growing by leaps and bounds because it was already culturally relevant and in their language.
| Laurie | 00;45;45;10 | That's so important to learn such hard issues in your heart. Language is going to make all the difference. Definitely. All right. What else might we need to know about Italy before we travel on?
| Agi | 00;45;56;10 | We have experienced some spiritual attacks. We didn't plan anything for Sunday morning. And that's when I got the call from my neighbor who was responsible for my flood that she can't go in. So I was pretty much stressed about it and try to resolve the situation. And three, she had a migraine, so we were pretty much staying in the hotel room, not not really being able to do much that day.
| Agi | 00;46;32;25 | So we knew that we are on the good path because the enemy doesn't do that. If we are not doing anything which hurts him.
| Laurie | 00;46;42;04 | That's really true. So the Lord carried you through and you got past these these obstacles on this day in Italy. Shall we move on to country number seven.
| Agi | 00;46;55;21 | And now Switzerland. Oh, okay. And also from Milan, we went north. It was about 4 to 5 hours by bus and we could see the beautiful lakes and the mountains. And yeah, that was one of the highlights. It was really neat. Place went through, I think one of the longest panels I have gone through, which was interesting. We went, I think more than 10 minutes inside the tunnel.
| Laurie | 00;47;30;10 | So Switzerland definitely scenery. Who were you meeting there? What were the outcomes of some of those meetings?
| Agi | 00;47;38;13 | We have had a meeting with a lady called Catalina. She's originally from Central or South America, but then to Dallas Theological Seminary, and now she's leading a Bible study for women in the state church, the reformed church in Switzerland in this area. We've met with her. She took one of our trainings developing a discipline card, and now we are hoping to have kids coming to Hungary for the next intensive training, the first one facilitating relational voting.
| Agi | 00;48;16;24 | So that was neat. And then we went to the Basel area and we've met with a couple of we used to manage the kids similar facility, but we weren't too many years as a group, a Christian group for equipping women. So we've met with Dianne and Felix and we've met also with one of their daughters and Nina. And again, great food.
| Agi | 00;48;48;28 | They raclette for us, which is a very special Swiss dish with a lot of cheese involved. Yeah, that was a short trip and very positive thing from that visit was Diane's just being on fire for our training and she's recruiting us to come to for us. So she said, I'm going to come and my two daughters are going to come, and I'm talking to a friend of mine who hopefully will come to.
| Laurie | 00;49;19;15 | Is an ambassador for Entrust Equipping women.
| Trish | 00;49;23;26 | Yes. Yes.
| Laurie | 00;49;25;16 | What other highlights or hiccups did you encounter in Switzerland?
| Trish | 00;49;30;21 | Well, I was able to see a friend that every time I've gone to Switzerland for a training, I think I've met with her, but I had not seen her since she had adopted a little boy from Thailand. And so she was able to come to Diana. Felix is home and she couldn't bring her son because he was in school or something, but she brought her picture book, got the adoption and she could talk with me, but also meet Auggie and Diane and Felix.
| Trish | 00;50;00;09 | And I think Nina was still there at that point, so it was just really good to connect again, not necessarily with someone who has taken our training, but with another believer who is serving the Lord. And it was a great thrill to get to see her.
| Laurie | 00;50;18;05 | And so from Switzerland we go on to our final country in this, a country travelog, which is France. Okay. And talk a bit more about France.
| Agi | 00;50;29;11 | Well, I just have a regret that I wasn't able to see the city too much. So all the all the interesting things which are there, I saw some from the window of the taxi I was a little bit then. We have a lot of time that's Paris or Paris.
| Laurie | 00;50;48;08 | Oh that. I've heard of that. Yeah. They have a couple of things to see in Paris apparently. So you really didn't get to do any sightseeing in Paris?
| Trish | 00;50;56;03 | No, but I had asked her if she wanted to spend extra days in Paris. And that wasn't on her bucket list, right?
| Agi | 00;51;04;04 | Yeah. I wasn't so interested about that. But when I was there, I was like, Oh, it would be nice to just go and see. But we had discussed a couple of countries with trash that, Oh, we should come back here for a vacation.
| Laurie | 00;51;20;17 | So who are you meeting in Paris or.
| Agi | 00;51;23;08 | Not in Paris? We went to the French team, had a meeting in Unshared, which is about 5 hours by bus. We took a fast train, which was about 2 hours or one of the high fever and so we took a train there and we wanted to take a train back. And that was the story we shared before with not being able to get back to the hotel until 3 a.m..
| Agi | 00;51;48;10 | We have quite established training in France, in French, so we've met with the leadership, not all of the facilitators, but the leadership team. We also met. That has been a change in the leadership team. Just this summer, a new lady, Marie, has taken over from Chelsea and was leading the French team for quite some time. And we've met with her and we've met with most of the leadership team.
| Agi | 00;52;20;19 | So that was four French ladies and two of us. And yeah, they already have the 3/1 Esmeralda, the Age and the translated, and they are working on translating, equipping women to serve. Yeah, they have done that for quite some years and they have very good established procedures.
| Trish | 00;52;45;12 | And one of the things they are again like with Portugal is the woman who started that actually has now retired, living in Colorado, but she was greater European mission and she was affiliated with what in the United States used to be called Christian Women's Club, and they are the kind of sponsor of our trainings. They use it as their discipleship program and France, which is very exciting.
| Trish | 00;53;15;15 | All these partnerships are so crucial. We don't care if it's self interest all over it with interest staff doing it. I mean, we want people to know it's our they're our modules. But you know, other people are using them to create effect seeing women trained. And it was a real blessing to meet that team which is quite international in and of itself.
| Trish | 00;53;43;23 | Some Americans and a Dutch woman and Johnson was there who is French. And it's it's just so exciting. And now they have been put in touch with some women in Africa who speak French as their second language rather than English. And we're going to try to help them obvious to get materials in French rather than in English.
| Laurie | 00;54;12;04 | My goodness, the networks just keep spreading and spreading and spreading. Love it. We do need to mention French cuisine. Oggi, our foodie friend. What was especially wonderful in France and other outlets.
| Agi | 00;54;25;17 | But with a little different type of cheese, they had not just the basic cheese, the raclette cheese, but they had flavored them with, I think, some green spices and pepper. So it was it was a real treat.
| Laurie | 00;54;45;11 | So let's talk about this whole trip as a whole, the two of you, first of all, traveling in close quarters and sometimes under some stress with problems and changes. How did you get along?
| Agi | 00;54;59;18 | Well, I just want to say what the French ladies said. They knew that it's the end of the trip and they said, well, you still talk to one another, you still can smile. So we believe that it has been a good trip.
| Trish | 00;55;13;08 | One of the ground rules we set up before we ever got together this time and I have stayed in August home before, and she had stayed in my home and we had traveled in the car here in the United States together, but never for six weeks. One of the things we said is we wanted to keep short accounts.
| Trish | 00;55;30;24 | So if of us had been hurt or if we thought we'd offended the other, we just needed to say it upfront and get it out in the open and pray and do whatever was necessary to move on. But there were very few of those kinds of things, if any, that ended up happening with Trip. And that was one of those places I think people must have been praying and Satan didn't give his hand into that portion of the miracle.
| Laurie | 00;56;02;18 | Really, that much close quarters can lead to friction for anyone. But also, did you to do any specific kind of mentoring activities together with one another? Throughout the journey.
| Trish | 00;56;16;06 | We always tried to take, particularly if it was the train or the bus time to preview what we were about to go into and then talk about, okay, what were some of the highlights of what we just did? What are some of the steps for follow up of what we just did? How does this fit into the bigger picture?
| Trish | 00;56;36;11 | Like we have a European hub in Hungary are some of these women, women who speak English who could actually do some trainings, either facilitating or take trainings at the hub. So we were always talking big picture.
| Agi | 00;56;52;03 | Well, we already had a very good relationship before and this year has as we transition through, she's giving me the leadership for the Europe team for about a year now. We always had a close relationship and I think that just deepened with mutual respect and love for one another as we dealt with some of the difficulties, like being on that railway station in in shares was really demanding on both of us.
| Agi | 00;57;30;23 | And I ended up on our closed a couple of times. I said I need to discuss this with Chris and then got back to her. So I think that's also where the mutual respect came.
| Trish | 00;57;45;10 | And we did pray together. I would say multiple times each day. But if we were in the same room or available to one another, we prayed together before we went to bed at night. And so there were iron sharpens iron times going on. I wouldn't necessarily call back spiritual mentoring. I think by that point it was just a sisterhood.
| Laurie | 00;58;10;05 | So. RG How is your understanding of interest and and your new role as European Women's Ministry Director? Ben Impact By this long journey.
| Agi | 00;58;20;07 | We made a lot of contacts. I personally made a lot of contacts and I think just seeing these ladies in person have taken our relationship to a whole new level because lots of times we spend time together, meals together, being in their homes. So that is elevating the relationship. One very neat thing which happened was in Verona after we had our meal, the lady told me that we will pray for you and we will support you in this new role of yours.
| Agi | 00;58;59;20 | So that was really neat.
| Laurie | 00;59;01;06 | You know, someone could hear this and think, well, I want to travel around Europe and drink coffee in Portuguese cafes and eat raclette in multiple countries. But obviously this and that is a beautiful benefit of following the Lord. Sometimes we get to have this amazing experience, but how would you describe what was the ultimate like? What did God do?
| Laurie | 00;59;22;20 | I mean, we've said many things he did. But what was how what was God doing in this whole trip, in your hearts or in the Entrust Ministries?
| Trish | 00;59;32;15 | Well, I think Augie got to see in Latvia a work that had started in English that was now totally in Latvia and totally country based run by a team there in Latvia. She got to see a group in Italy that had started in Italian and is run by a team who speaks Italian. But also just the bigger picture of how do we take this in other countries and how is God going to surprise us by going into a country and working with what non first language English speakers who may be able then to train people in their language either in that country, in Great Britain or even online through their home countries.
| Trish | 01;00;23;04 | I mean, how exciting is that? So I personally think there was just a lot of vision casting and praising God for his faithfulness in the past. But getting a vision for what the future, for the European Regional Team Leader, which is what we call her. We don't call her a director, we don't call me a director. It's a European regional team leader.
| Trish | 01;00;46;28 | And we also discussed you were asking about mentoring. I will step off the team in January. I won't even be a member of the team and so we discussed. Okay, Oggy, who who is it you want to ask who's European to be on the team with you.
| Laurie | 01;01;03;08 | So that therefore Oggi the plan is you would be continuing to if you two were Paul and Timothy and Paul is sort of stepping away and Oggi you become Paul who might are you looking for your timothy's.
| Agi | 01;01;17;16 | Definitely not only for the European, but I also want to pass on the Hungarian ministry because I would not be able to do it too much. Hopefully not as much. Travel is coming up next year, but I still want the Hungarian ladies to be raised up and taking the bottom of that.
| Laurie | 01;01;40;28 | If we've wrapped up here, maybe we can say goodbye in as many languages as you encountered on your European journey here.
| Trish | 01;01;49;22 | Then for Oggi, she's the one with the language ability.
| Agi | 01;01;52;26 | One would be this flat does the Hungarian but good by the English. We know that we've been through UK child trials use child for good bias.
| Laurie | 01;02;07;00 | Well and I think child is kind of universal. I think that's in quite a few countries actually, isn't it. Maybe that's a good way for us to sign off from this. Talk about your international travels around Europe. Thank you so much. Blessings to you as you both carry on. And I really admire your example of this intentional trip and all that.
| Laurie | 01;02;28;18 | God, how you let God work in your lives through you on this whole trip. Thank you for telling us about it.
| Trish | 01;02;34;23 | Thank you.
| Laurie | 01;02;35;26 | And there we have it. We have returned home once again. Thanks so much for listening to this special edition of Entrust Equipping Leaders with Agi in Hungary. Trish Barrett in the United States. I'm Laurie, also in the U.S. and I'll be back in two weeks with my guest, Dr. Craig Ott of Trinity International University, talking about contextualization and how we can even pay attention to sort of contextualizing ourselves when we are working with people from other cultures.
| Laurie | 01;03;08;27 | I hope you can join us then. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast and we'll see you next time.
Guest Lynn Blase. Lynn and her husband, Jim, serve with Entrust in Serbia, among Serbian and Roma Christians. Most of these Christians are relatively young in their faith. But oh, how they pray! Lynn describes some of the ways her Serbian and Roma brothers and sisters pray, along with some of her own understandings of personal and corporate prayer.
Links
Lynn's Entrust Equipping Leaders article https://www.entrust4.org/post/let-s-pray-now-how-when-where-and-what-we-pray
Entrust https://www.entrust4.org
Transcript
Speaker Name | Start Time | Text
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;00;10;20 | How are you doing in your prayer life? On today's episode of Entrust Equipping Leaders, we get in on some great examples about prayer from Christians living in Serbia. Our host Laurie Lind chats with Entrust staff member Lynn Blase about some of the whens, wheres, hows and whys of prayer that she's learned from Roma and Serbian Christians.
Laurie Lind | 00;00;43;08 | I’d love to open this podcast episode with a story from you if you have one.
Lynn Blase | 00;00;48;19 | I have a great prayer story. It's it's an ongoing one.
Lynn Blase | 00;00;56;18 | We're connected with a number of churches here, but there's a really little church in our city of Novi Sad that meets on Saturday evenings. And when Jim and I are not busy doing other ministry work at other churches, we like to attend this little church. We just love the pastor. And when I say the church is, little on a good night, there's maybe 20 people there, but it's a church that has a lot of broken people, a high percentage.
Lynn Blase | 00;01;34;19 | Now, you might think, well, we're all broken. I agree we are. But these are folks who on a daily basis deal with really big struggles in their lives. Some people are not believers. But every Saturday night, they gather together because of drag on the pastor. He is such a good shepherd. He loves his people. And a few weeks ago, he was reading Nehemiah and he says that God was asking him to begin a 52 day prayer journey for the whole church, inviting everyone at the church to attend.
Lynn Blase | 00;02;21;07 | So every morning, from 8 to 9, anyone who can can gather either in person or online and pray. And we're not even halfway through the 52 days. But the goal of the prayer was to see God tear down some of the dividing walls in the church and in just a few weeks, we have seen God do amazing things in many lines in this church.
Lynn Blase | 00;02;55;23 | And so it's been just a real blessing for Jim and me. And it just really honed in again for me, the importance of corporate prayer. Then the body of Christ in the West. It is, in my opinion, to neglect it. It's not a priority in most churches. My experience is the churches in the East, oh, they do corporate prayer really well and perhaps that's why churches are growing in the East and in the West.
Lynn Blase | 00;03;35;19 | Churches are really struggling. I just really love corporate prayer. I see it as such a gift from God and I would love to see more Western churches make it a priority.
Laurie Lind | 00;03;51;17 | And when he said praying about the barriers or the divisions in the church, does he mean that one little church or does he mean the the church universal?
Lynn Blase | 00;04;01;04 | Initially, it was for this little church. However, you know, our prayers extend to all of Serbia and beyond. And we pray for the church.
Laurie Lind | 00;04;14;22 | Wow. And also to clarify, when you say east and west, what are your definitions of those two words?
Lynn Blase | 00;04;23;09 | Okay, West, North America, South America, Europe, East Asia. This past spring, Jim met a pastor from South Korea and he was sharing that in South Korea. Now there's so many Christian, so many very large churches and that his church, they wanted to somehow bless churches in the West because it was Western missionaries who first brought the gospel to Korea.
Lynn Blase | 00;04;58;24 | Hmm. So they talked about. Well, maybe we could send missionaries to the churches in the West. But the made up boy. I mean, our people would have to learn the language and learn the culture. Might really not be the best way for us to invest in Western churches. And they especially wanted to connect with Western churches that were really struggling or were new church plants.
Lynn Blase | 00;05;26;17 | What they decided to do was to offer corporate prayer for churches in the West. They have people in their church who get up at 5 a.m. every morning and they're there. And people are given a specific church in the West for which to pray. They commit to praying. I can't remember if it's an hour. I think it's 2 hours from 5 to 7 every morning for that church.
Lynn Blase | 00;05;58;13 | And he said what they have seen happen in these churches is phenomenal.
Laurie Lind | 00;06;05;14 | So now when he says a specific church that makes like like First Presbyterian Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado, like that specific a certain congregation.
Lynn Blase | 00;06;15;25 | That specific they I don't know how they get connected with these churches in Europe, but somehow they do and they form this close relationship and commit to praying.
Laurie Lind | 00;06;30;06 | My goodness. What a lesson for us.
Lynn Blase | 00;06;33;12 | Absolutely. Absolutely.
Laurie Lind | 00;06;35;26 | So speaking of learning, let's learn about you and your ministry and what you're learning about prayer in Serbia, where you live. I think we'll start reading by referring to the article that you wrote about prayer and you kind of really did a great job of breaking it down into the kind of the how where, when, and what we pray.
Laurie Lind | 00;06;57;23 | What is your thinking about why we pray, especially as trainers of Christian leaders?
Lynn Blase | 00;07;06;07 | Well, my first thought is because I need to since moving here to Serbia a little over four years ago, we have been in so many situations where we are in over our heads and we simply don't know what to do. And so we have to go to our knees. And that's really good. It drives us to our knees to bring everything before the Lord and to wait on him to direct us.
Lynn Blase | 00;07;37;04 | But I don't want my reason for praying to be just about me. I also want to pray because I believe it delights the Lord when we come to Him in prayer. We're acknowledging our dependance on Him, our need for him, acknowledging his omniscience and omnipresent and just how mighty and loving a God He has. I believe that when I pray to God, I'm blessing God and I really want to do more of that in my life.
Laurie Lind | 00;08;15;04 | Yeah, that's a concept that was new to me a few years ago. We always pray God bless me or bless my friend or but that we in turn are even invited to bless God.
Lynn Blase | 00;08;26;24 | Yeah, it's.
Laurie Lind | 00;08;27;11 | Quite amazing, actually.
Lynn Blase | 00;08;30;24 | Yes.
Laurie Lind | 00;08;31;09 | So in terms of praying, then, in the article that you wrote, first you describe some of the how we pray. And you talked about something you had learned pretty early on in your time in Serbia about how they pray. Can you describe that for us here?
Lynn Blase | 00;08;47;18 | Sure. Yeah. Actually, the first week we landed here, we started attending an early Tuesday morning corporate prayer gathering at a church. And my first time praying with Serbians. And what struck me right away was how when one person finished praying. Another person immediately took up the prayer immediately. There was no hesitation. There was no silence for 5 seconds.
Lynn Blase | 00;09;24;07 | Like we're so accustomed to in the West. Or at least I'm accustomed to. And I didn't know when to jump in and and what the other thing that amazed me was like, you know, sometimes when we're praying and how corporately to, people will start praying once. And then there's this, oh, you know, you go first. And yeah, they never had two people starting to pray at the same time, whatever it was to me, it was like this smooth flow of the spirit in this time of prayer.
Lynn Blase | 00;10;02;20 | And and probably those words aren't even adequate to describe what I was seeing and hearing and sensing. To me it was really such a thing of beauty that they just were so in tune with one another.
Laurie Lind | 00;10;18;29 | You know, there is the other side where people talk about silent prayer or listening prayer or do the do the Serbians that, you know, practice that as well? Or are they comfortable with silence occasionally in prayer times?
Lynn Blase | 00;10;33;27 | I have not experienced that in corporate prayer here, but I'll be honest, I've rarely experienced it in the West either. So and I know when Jim and I pray, we do like to have that time of silent prayer, because we'd like to hear again, have the spirit, direct our prayers. And we just feel that we need to just be silent for a little bit and see what is leading us to saying.
Laurie Lind | 00;11;12;09 | There's a good lesson for us, though, in corporate prayer from your Serbian brothers and sisters, though, that somehow so in tune with the Lord's as he prays, Spirit prays through us. The scriptures say you've actually seen that happening there. Love it. What about the the concept of where to pray? You went into that in your article as well.
Laurie Lind | 00;11;34;21 | And again, you had a good story left for you to tell that one.
Lynn Blase | 00;11;38;27 | Yes. So here again, this was a new idea presented to me here in Serbia. Again, the church, one of the churches that we attend regularly, they have a balcony in their church. And when they have events, people who are not a part of the event will come and sit up in the balcony and pray over this event and the event then takes place down on the main floor of the sanctuary.
Lynn Blase | 00;12;11;00 | And I thought, what a brilliant idea. And I had no doubt in my church and in the U.S., why didn't any of us ever think of this? Because we had a balcony in our church. But I just love that idea. And the Christians who are down below on the main floor hosting the event must find it to be just such a source of encouragement and comfort and a strengthening.
Lynn Blase | 00;12;48;27 | To know that there are people up above in the balcony just lifting up them. And this and that to the Lord.
Laurie Lind | 00;12;57;15 | And is that group praying throughout the entire event that yes, that's his finish? They keep going.
Lynn Blase | 00;13;04;13 | They do well. And if the event is weekly, such as an alpha course, which the church presents offers twice a year, they come every week. Wow. We have of course.
Laurie Lind | 00;13;17;21 | That's not just an occasional thing. It's a very regular thing.
Lynn Blase | 00;13;22;20 | Yes, they're committed to praying. And I have to say that, you know, I've experienced alpha in the U.S. in the past, but there are a number of people who become Christians in every course of alpha that's offered. Now, can I say it's because of these people praying? I don't know. But I my my feeling is, why not pray?
Laurie Lind | 00;13;53;16 | Yeah. What do you sense God does with that, with that fact of those people literally praying on site and simultaneously with an event like that? To me.
Lynn Blase | 00;14;03;25 | It's almost like a symphony being offered up to God. You had the people praying and you had the Christians down below in the sanctuary who are teaching or preaching or whatever is happening. And I just think what a what a beautiful combination of the bride of Christ coming together. I just believe that God loves this. I think it also sends the message that if we're not trusting in ourselves when we're doing the teaching or the preaching or whatever is going on.
Lynn Blase | 00;14;41;24 | We're not trusting in ourselves. We're trusting in God who's hearing the prayers of the faithful ones up in the balcony.
Laurie Lind | 00;14;50;14 | Even perhaps. Do you think that the enemy, the spiritual warfare and praying that showing spiritual forces that we need business here and the enemy cannot come in, he probably would flee because there was so much prayer going on.
Lynn Blase | 00;15;06;11 | Yeah. Yeah. And he can find no place to steal, kill or destroy.
Laurie Lind | 00;15;12;00 | Right, right. If we're forming that hedge, we talk about which is lifting up the name of God. That's a good barrier and a good protection for all the spiritual work going on at events such as that.
Lynn Blase | 00;15;26;10 | Yes.
Laurie Lind | 00;15;27;08 | In your article, though, you said shortly thereafter or sometime later, you and Jim held an event or something happened when you didn't have people praying throughout you’re the time. Have you since done something where you did have people praying on site while you did whatever you do?
Lynn Blase | 00;15;45;19 | No, we have not held another event. But the next time, trust me, I'm going to have the prayer team. Wherever the event is held. I'm going to ask people, even if they cannot be there on site. I think being on site is the best, but even if they cannot be on site, just pray. Just pray during this time.
Laurie Lind | 00;16;08;23 | So that's a little bit of the where and the when. I like the idea of where and the when. If we go further into the idea of when. What are some things you're learning about when we might pray?
Lynn Blase | 00;16;22;16 | Yeah. So here again, I think we Westerners are kind of trained to put put off prayer. You know, if someone is sharing a something with me and they'd like prayer, we often say, okay, I'll pray for you about that. And I just thought, why don't we just say, let's pray now? I can think of no reason to delay praying.
Lynn Blase | 00;16;55;12 | Let's pray now. And if I remember, I'll pray again later. But at least we have it covered now. And I think the person who is wanting the prayer would find that to be here again, encouraging strength and strengthening. Just a real blessing that someone is taking the time now just to stop. And that's prayer in. I really think it comes down to a mindset.
Lynn Blase | 00;17;24;19 | It's I, I honestly believe Christians would want to do that, but we just don't even trained ourselves to do that. And so I think we need to be, you know, conscious about changing our mindset.
Laurie Lind | 00;17;41;13 | And then, you know, there's that concept of pray without ceasing, which we always hear mentioned in the Bible. And then let's talk about, well, how does that even how does that work? What's what's your thinking about prayer without ceasing?
Lynn Blase | 00;17;57;06 | And in for many years, I saw that as a admonition to go throughout the day thinking about the Lord as much as possible, all listening for the Lord talking with him, just having a mindset on him. But something happened last fall that kind of gave me another view of pray without ceasing. Jim and I were over at some friend's house and the husband was talking about a friend of his that he had been praying for every day for two years.
Lynn Blase | 00;18;44;09 | This friend is not a believer. And he said it after two years. My friend is still not a believer and I don't see him getting any closer to God than he was two years ago. And so our friend said. So I stopped crying. I don't know what to pray anymore. I just feel like I'm praying the same thing over and over and over again.
Lynn Blase | 00;19;06;28 | So we encouraged him, first of all, not to stop praying. And secondly, pray Scripture. You'll never run out of prayers if you pray Scripture for this person. And I started to think, you know, that also to me means pray without ceasing. Don't give up. Persevere.
Laurie Lind | 00;19;31;23 | Well, what about finally? Then we get to the what shall we pray? And you just mentioned praise scripture.
Lynn Blase | 00;19;38;29 | What are other.
Laurie Lind | 00;19;39;18 | Thoughts you have or what have you learned from Serbian friends or others about the the what, the how now, what, how what what is the content of our prayers?
Lynn Blase | 00;19;49;18 | I would say that's been a big thing for us since in the past few years here is to just be more aware of what we're praying. We just tend to fall into the praying for the physical needs and forgetting to pray for the spiritual needs and not and we should praying for the physical need. Where else are we going to go if we need a job?
Lynn Blase | 00;20;23;27 | I mean, to whom else am I going to pray except to God for help with the job, or if I'm sick or something of that nature? But it's so easy for us to pray the physical and kind of neglect this spiritual. And I mentioned in the article that I think I mentioned I had read a book this past year by Dear Carson Praying with Paul and he was like, just due to Paul's prayers in the New Testament.
Lynn Blase | 00;21;04;01 | And I went through them to look for the occurrences where Paul prays for something physical and only I think it was three of the prayers. Could I find something that Paul talks about? The physical, everything else is spiritual and which when really, when you think about it, the physical one day will burn up. The spiritual lasts forever. And often times the physical comes about because there's been a spiritual change.
Lynn Blase | 00;21;46;16 | And what what I mean by that, I'll give you an example. There's a church here who almost every Sunday prays for a decrease or even a removal of the corruption here in Serbia. There's a lot of corruption in this country, and it begins at the top of the government. But they always ask for the physical side of that and not the spiritual.
Lynn Blase | 00;22;12;18 | They don't ask God to bring salvation to those who are so corrupt. And my belief is that if people do sow the seeds of corruption became Christians, then the corruption is obviously going to decrease. In my mind. The goal is to see salvation come to people more so than to see the corruption decrease.
Laurie Lind | 00;22;42;25 | You know, a lot of people talk about prayer meetings that are organ recitals. What are some things you've learned about how to kind of veer away from that kind of a prayer meeting.
Lynn Blase | 00;22;53;19 | Or query.
Laurie Lind | 00;22;54;05 | Requests?
Lynn Blase | 00;22;55;18 | Yeah. If someone asks for prayer for grandma's kidney stones. Yes, I'm happy to pray for grandma's kidney stone. But I will also try to pray something spiritual for grandma in the prayer.
Lynn Blase | 00;23;16;07 | And here again, I think it's a change in mindset. The more we try to input spiritual prayers in every alongside every physical prayer, I think then the more our minds will turn to the spiritual. And here again, I find praying scripture really helps me pray. The spiritual for people. You know, and I believe that often times we pray the way that we were mentored to pray when we were new Christians.
Lynn Blase | 00;23;58;03 | So I think that it's going to take time and practice and perhaps even baby steps again to change this mindset.
Laurie Lind | 00;24;10;02 | And as you and Jim are investing in in churches and church leaders, maybe an aspect of what your training is, maybe you're all learning together new, thinking about how to pray. To some extent. I mean, I think they're teaching you some things, it sounds like, and maybe vice versa.
Lynn Blase | 00;24;27;02 | Absolutely. That and that's the beauty of being in the body of Christ and not neglecting meeting together because we do learn from each other. I have learned about prayer just by listening to other people's prayers. Sometimes I'll hear someone pray something and think, Oh, well, I've never thought to pray that. So, yes, I think that prayer is an ongoing growth, or I should say an ongoing, growing opportunity.
Lynn Blase | 00;25;04;07 | And we do need each other. I mean, for instance, this the South Korean pastor, I never thought to partner with a specific church that was struggling and pray, pray, pray.
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;25;21;25 | What did you learn from Lynn today that you might apply to your own prayer life? Lynn shared her insights not only during this podcast, but also in an Entrust Equipping Leaders article called “Let’s Pray Now,” which you can find on our website. We've got links to our site and to Lynn's article in today's show notes. Would you do us the honor of writing a review of this podcast and share it with a friend?
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;25;48;13 | And if you missed the previous episode with Anne Graham Lotz about prayer, be sure to go back and listen. Thanks for listening. Keep on praying and we'll see you next time on Entrust. Equipping Leaders.
Guest Anne Graham Lotz. Bible teacher and author Anne Graham Lotz reflects on Moses and Joshua, great leaders who spent much time in God's presence. Anne describes her prayer team and her own prayer life. From ministry in Eastern Europe and Russia to the U.S., through illness and loss and her need of a loud alarm clock, you'll find challenge and inspiration as you listen to Anne's candid thoughts about the joys of connecting with God through His word and prayer.
Links
Anne Graham Lotz' website https://www.annegrahamlotz.org
Anne's Entrust Equipping Leaders article https://www.entrust4.org/post/prayer-is-not-just-an-option-it-s-the-very-core
Entrust https://www.entrust4.org
Transcript
Speaker Name | Start Time | Text
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;00;05;00 | Welcome again to Entrust Equipping Leaders. Get ready to be challenged and encouraged as today, we talk about prayer with our special guest Anne Graham Lotz. Anne is an international Bible teacher and the bestselling author of Jesus in Me and Jesus Followers.
Laurie Lind | 00;00;26;15 | Well, I'm glad to talk with you today, and thank you for joining us on our Entrust podcast.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;00;32;11 | I'm glad to do it, Laurie. Thank you.
Laurie Lind | 00;00;34;09 | We'll just sort of jump in our topic overall is prayer. And I know you were involved with us back a long time ago when we were called Biblical Education by Extension. How did you come to be involved with BEE?
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;00;49;03 | Laurie, I actually can't remember. I think I just received an invitation. It seems like I was doing something else at the time I was in Wroclaw, Poland, opening a seminary and somehow be contacting me at about the same time to come to Vienna and train some of their leaders. And I actually was very, very sick. I don't know if it was like a pneumonia kind of thing.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;01;16;09 | I had a high fever. I was really sick. But and I had a friend with me who was very capable. And she helped. But but I led, I believe it was a a day or two, four days of training. And so that was my initial introduction to be and then I can't remember when it was later I was invited to come to Moscow and help with the graduation ceremony for some of the women.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;01;40;26 | And that also piggybacked on our speaking to the Baptist north of St. Petersburg. And so I went up there and did that. And then I came back to Moscow and and spoke at that graduation ceremony. And I think that's the last interaction I've had with BEE.
Laurie Lind | 00;01;59;27 | And also, you did some teaching in Romania, I believe, about inductive Bible study.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;02;05;05 | Yes, that's right. So I didn't forget that event, but I forgot that BEE was involved in that. But yes, and that was an incredible event. It was held in the former Communist Party headquarters. And but it was filled with women who wanted to draw nearer to the Lord to get into their Bibles, to turn around and and help other people read their Bibles and as a result, know Jesus and grow in their faith.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;02;34;05 | It was it was an incredible experience. And I loved it because we stayed there. And so I was able to interact with some of the women, you know, mealtimes and other times. And I really they captured my heart. So that was a very blessed time.
Laurie Lind | 00;02;52;27 | And as you met some of those women, whether it was in Russia or Romania or even in Vienna, did you see some examples of prayer fulness among those women that struck you? Or might you have a story about someone you met and and her own prayer life?
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;03;11;17 | I actually don't. Not that I can remember, because my whole emphasis was to get them into the to the word in or to get them into their Bibles and help them understand how to read their Bible so they could hear God speaking to them through it. I do remember the interpreter as being a family member. She was a history professor.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;03;29;29 | And and she and I, of course, would spend time and prayers would go over the message before presenting it. And and it's just like that article I wrote for you without Jesus, we can't do anything. So as much as I want to get women in the word and I want them to hear God speaking to them through it, but it really isn't possible unless God, the Holy Spirit, would come down and clothe it with this power.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;03;58;21 | And I think that's an answer to prayer. I know he honors God's word because he's the spirit of truth. He works through God's word. But I think it requires us to be very, not only dependent in our spirits, but even verbally in prayer, that we would seek his blessing and his help.
Laurie Lind | 00;04;18;05 | And so you said, like yourself, you did pray with your interpreter. Was that in Romania?
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;04;23;26 | Yes. Yes.
Laurie Lind | 00;04;24;22 | How how do you pray ahead of a teaching or a training event like that?
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;04;32;20 | Any event that I do, any time I speak on a platform, actually, anything that I live, you know, it's it's so prefaced about prayer. And then as I go through the day, you know, I pray throughout the day when I know that I'm going to speak on on a platform. It just goes back several weeks. Like I just spoke with someone this morning.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;04;58;05 | I'm going to speak for him, I think in two or three weeks. Big convention he's putting on. And so I called him. I want to get a sense of who the people are going to be, who are going to be sitting in front of me and and then from from now. And I've been praying. I prayed as to whether or not I should even accept the invitation extended.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;05;18;06 | But now my prayer becomes more focused and praying that God would put his message on my heart that He wants these people to hear. And then I'm going to be praying not only for the people going to be there, but for myself as I prepare the message that God would give me, the examples, the illustrations, the applications that would be relevant for that specific audience.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;05;38;21 | And then close to the time, I'll begin preparing the message itself. And so, you know, when people invite me to speak, I think they think it just requires the time I spend in their venue or on their platform. But actually it backs up for days and even weeks in advance, as I even if it's a message I've given before, I have to prepare it in relation to that particular audience and and just have, as I pray that Lord confirm in my spirit that that's that's the message you would have me give to that particular group.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;06;12;16 | And then the morning that I speak, whether I speak in the morning or speak at night or a speaker, and I get up early and pray through the message and and then when I stand up on the platform, I do it in total dependency upon him. I never write up things word for word. I expect that he would use that preparation time so that he can bring to my mind what he wants me to say to those in front of me.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;06;38;01 | And so prayer is it's not that I spend. How do I pray before an event is like? Prayer just saturates and interweaves everything. And it doesn't mean that I don't go to the grocery store and I don't, you know, take care of my kids or grandchildren or clean my house or whatever. But but in the back of my mind, just like this event I'm going to be doing in two or three weeks, it's in the back of my mind.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;07;06;21 | So even as I'm going up about my day and I'm thinking about it, I'm asking God questions about it, you know, beginning to meditate on it, I guess you would say it's sort of like a I love coffee and coffee percolates and so and so it just sort of begins to percolate so that I can deliver it. And my aim, of course, when I speak, is that people would forget about me and they would hear God speaking to them through his word.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;07;31;19 | I never I told the organizer this morning, 99.9% of the time I speak straight from Scripture. Very rarely do I speak other than that. And that might be the exception, might be a word of testimony or something. You know, that's not exposition.
Laurie Lind | 00;07;48;25 | Do you recruit a band of prayer warriors to pray for you during times of teaching like that?
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;07;56;01 | Absolutely. Not only times of teaching like that, but when I started, I taught a Bible class in my city for 12 years. But when I stepped out, God called me clearly from Scripture that I was to step out and go into what I call an itinerant ministry that was worldwide. And when I did, I felt burdened to ask.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;08;16;28 | I felt like I needed a prayer team. And actually I hadn't thought about it until a woman came up to me. I'd been in my class and she said, And I think you need a prayer thing when you go out. And so I started to pray about that. And then I asked God to bring me women who would be willing to commit to praying for me every day and then once a week bring together.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;08;37;15 | And, and I thought, you know, I have a class Bible, class of 500. I thought I might have dozens of women come. Actually, I only had seven women come forward. And so I invited them for coffee and explained to them what I was asking and then asked them to go back to their homes and pray about it for a week and then get back to me.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;08;57;08 | And they did and all seven got called of got into that prayer team and that was I want to say that 35, 40 years ago and as I still have that protein, but not that I only have two ladies in that prayer team who have been consistent through, you know, 35, 40 years. Two of them have gone on to heaven.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;09;18;12 | Then some of them, the newest ones, have been in maybe 7 to 10 years. But my youngest daughter now heads up that prayer team. And so once a week I send to her to distribute to the prayer team prayer requests for the immediately for this week. In other words, they they're praying for you and for this interview. They meet together on Thursday morning.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;09;40;26 | So this morning they were praying for us as we do this interview. And then next week, on Wednesday, I send them another prayer letter that has the updates for the requests I gave them this week. So then the answers to prayer, and then I give them the prayer requests for the next week. And so I've done that now 35, 40 years.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;09;58;26 | And, and what it's done is encourage them when we pray specifically. So in other words, the prayer requests I give them are ones that that if God answers, you'll know it this week. You know, specific like this interview would be an example and or the conversation I had earlier with them, the man I'm going to speak for, just asking God to use that conversation to help confirm in my heart the message and the give and and God answered that prayer, assuming he's going to be answering the prayer for this interview and so so to be on.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;10;31;07 | And then they pray not only it's mainly ministry centered, but if I'm you know, we all in ministry have are under attack. I know. And so health issues that I've had or, you know, if I just go a week and I can't sleep or or I have other things that I feel are hindering me or coming against me and what God's called me to do that I'll put that in the prayer letter too.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;10;57;18 | So they pray for me personally like that. And so it's I want it to get on a platform. Can I tell you, I would not step out in ministry. I wouldn't even feel good about taking this interview if I didn't know. Not only I had prayed, but that I had this this team of women there, now ten of them in the because it just fluctuates.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;11;19;11 | It's not the numbers, Larry. So it could be three. It could be you know, it doesn't, but it's never been more than ten. And so I wouldn't want to attempt ministry without their prayer covering and without my own prayers, because without Jesus, we can do nothing.
Laurie Lind | 00;11;38;13 | It's a very serious commitment when they agree to pray. You're like you said. Just one more question back in history, if you remember at all with the Russian or Romanian ladies or whatever, did any advice you gave them about prayer or any teaching you gave them about that?
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;11;56;21 | No, I don't think I did, because I believe I spoke from if I remember right and I could be wrong. I believe I spoke from second Timothy, first or second Timothy. One reason I wrote the article for you the way I did, just to try to emphasize that, you know, you have all these leadership principles and then you tack prayer on to it.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;12;15;22 | You can't do that. You know, it's I was reading this morning in my devotional in my devotions, look, chapter six, I believe it was where Jesus was talking about, you know, you judge a tree by the fruit and and out of the heart comes on, you know, your words, your actions and the same thing. I mean, that's true in anything, but it's true in leadership.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;12;40;02 | So your heart needs to be on fire for in your relationship with Jesus. You need to love the Lord, your God with all your mind, heart, soul and body and your neighbor as yourself, and have a passion for his word, a passion to reach other people. And that comes out. And so to me, that's basic, fundamental leader ship, without which you can become mechanical and perfunctory, and you can go through all the leadership techniques and you can gain your confidence and you can come across, you know, the way I see a lot of women coming across, but it's not spirit led and it's not spirit filled.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;13;16;00 | So, you know, I don't want to do that right.
Laurie Lind | 00;13;19;01 | Yes, you did make that point in the article. And we definitely want our listeners to read that article because I had asked you my question to you had been what is the role of prayer in leadership training? And you very clearly said that's the wrong question. So do you want to expound on that thought a little bit more for our listeners here?
Laurie Lind | 00;13;39;18 | Why? That's the wrong question.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;13;41;15 | Well, I thought it was a good question, because what it did was expose what's wrong and and so without being offensive, you know, it's just I think I use the example of Moses in the wilderness when he set up a meeting in the middle of the Israelite camp and he would go in and that tenor meeting was, of course, the tabernacle, but that's where God would come down.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;14;06;24 | And Moses would meet with God. It says, as with a friend face to face. And when Moses came out, he had no idea his face shown, you know, just just from having been in the presence of God. And he was one of surely one of the greatest leaders in all of human history, certainly one of the greatest in scripture.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;14;24;06 | And then his protege, Joshua, says that he went into that ten hour meeting and Moses would leave and go out in the camp. But Joshua stayed in the tenor meeting, and so he he dwelt, in a sense, in that place of prayer, that tenor of meeting. And he became the leader, of course, that took over after Moses that led the children of Israel into the promised land.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;14;46;08 | And so as leaders, both Moses and Joshua were phenomenal leaders. Moses led the children of Israel out of bondage to slavery in Egypt, and then they went nowhere with God for 40 years. They just went in circles and but he still got them out of bondage. And Joshua was a leader who took those children of Israel who were going nowhere with God.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;15;09;09 | And he led them through the Jordan and tackled Jericho and into the Promised Land where they were able to possess what God had promised them. And and so I feel like as leaders and both Moses and Joshua were saturated in prayer and and as leaders, our aim is twofold. One, we wanted to get people out of bondage, the sin, the lead them to the cross, where they can test their sin to tell God they're sorry, believe he died on the cross to take away their sin, to forgive them, receive the eternal life he offers through the resurrection, and and open up their hearts, and receive him by faith in the Person of the Holy Spirit
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;15;48;09 | so that they're born again into God's family. That's that's a primary basic aim of any Christian leader. The second one is to be like Joshua and to take people who have put their faith in Jesus and help them grow up in their faith so they can possess the blessings of God, so they can live out what God's called them for.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;16;07;14 | So, so not my point. I guess in that article was on if you just consider prayer a role, just something, a discipline that you to do, you know, then you're probably going to fall short of what your potential would be as a leader. And I use the personal example because I had been in ministry, I don't know how long, but a long time.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;16;35;20 | And God seemed to speak to me from Revelation three, the church at Sardis. When you told Sardis to wake up and strengthen the things that remain, and I went on with the rest of the letter, but God kept bringing me back. And then I began to hear that whisper of the Spirit and you have a it says you have a reputation for being alive, but you're dead.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;16;57;17 | You need to wake up. And I knew I had a worldwide reputation for somebody who was spiritual alive. But what Jesus was saying on the inside, he saw me. I wasn't dead, but I was not as alive. You would want me to be. I was dying because I wasn't getting up to spend time with them. So I went down to the mall, bought an alarm clock with a long that went so loud of woke me up in the morning you knew your heart bound and I couldn't go back to sleep and and I just began waking up every morning to spend time with him.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;17;32;22 | And as my children have grown, as my schedule changes, you know, that time early in the morning fluctuates. And after some of the health issues I've had, I've struggled with early morning time because my body just doesn't cooperate. But first, first thing in the morning, whatever, it may not be as early as I would like it to be, but when I get out of bed after I wash my face, brush my teeth, gotten a cup of coffee, I have my quiet time with the Lord.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;18;00;10 | And and one thing I've loved about Calvin, you know, has a silver lining to that dreadful disease, but it locked us all down so I could have an extended time with the Lord. I didn't have to look at my watch, you know, I could just sit there and just be in his presence as long as, you know, you don't ever want to leave his presence.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;18;17;15 | But at least I felt I had spent time with him each morning in a way that was satisfying, if that makes sense. So. So in a way I just put that in the article because I feel like prayer is prayer in God's word. And it says in that passage about Moses that he would go in the tent of meeting and he would hear what God would say to him.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;18;41;23 | So prayer is not just talking to God. Prayer is listening to what he says. And that means we have to open our Bibles and we have to read our Bibles listening for his voice to speak to us. So I do that in the morning. I take a little paragraph of verses. I'm going through the Gospel of Luke and and I just list the outstanding facts.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;19;02;08 | I don't paraphrase just nouns and verbs and, you know, and then try to find a spiritual lesson from each fact and then put those lessons in the form of a question I would ask myself. And so, so often when I do that, I feel God's just whispering to me and and speaking to me. But that night I started several years ago, reading the Bible through which every year and I don't really like it because I like to meditate on a passage in this way.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;19;32;13 | You're right, you're sort of racing through it. But last night I was in First Corinthians and and felt as I dived into it and read my five chapters, which I'll do each night as I go to bed, I could hear the whispering, the spirit, you know, it was just so sweet because I wasn't expecting it. I was just expecting to read it through and be familiar with.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;19;53;13 | But what he was whispering and I and I'll tell you what it was. It was in the first chapter and the world is. So we're living at a very dangerous, critical time. And and at the very same time, I'm not as strong physically as I would like to be. And but in that passage, he said that he would keep me strong to the end.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;20;20;14 | I just could hear that little whisper, you know. And don't worry, I got it. So.
Laurie Lind | 00;20;24;19 | You know, I'm glad you mentioned that first of all, thank you for your honesty about even buying that loud alarm clock. I think a lot of us even struggle there. And so I was going to ask you, you began to kind of answer it that you did say prayer is not only talking, it's listening, it's letting the Lord speak to us.
Laurie Lind | 00;20;43;19 | He does that through Scripture, the Holy Spirit speaks to us. And yet I know when I pray, sometimes I, I struggle with am I, is it God's voice I'm hearing or my own? Like, am I? I may think I'm hearing something, but is it just me? What thoughts do you have about really recognizing the voice of the Holy Spirit in our our souls or our hearts?
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;21;07;09 | You know, I think some of that, Larry, comes from experience so that as you develop your relationship with him, when you take action on something that wasn't his voice, you'll find out it was. And then you take action on something that and we go by faith so we never know for sure. All right. So but then you take by faith and what you believe is God's word and and then you find out that that indeed is what it was.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;21;35;00 | And and you begin to discern the difference between other voices. And he is for myself. He speaks to me through his word. And I know I've got friends, precious friends who are godly and spiritual, and they can go according to an impression or, you know, sometimes other things. For me, I and when God speaks to me, he speaks through his word.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;22;01;02 | But it's just like when I was reading that passage from First Corinthians, it's like it just jumps up off the page and, and it was interesting. He addresses something that maybe I hadn't even prayed about, just the dress or actually I have prayed about that, but not at that moment. But but he knows the thoughts in our mind and the emotions in our heart and what we're facing.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;22;24;15 | And so my daughter, my youngest daughter makes it a habit. She talks to him about what's on her heart before she opens her Bible and then what he seems to say to her. You know, it just seems to be more applicable to what she's just been burdened about for me. I read my Bible first and then prayed, pray about what he said to me.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;22;49;06 | But then, for instance, last night I just wasn't expecting that. But I'm glad I recognized it as a whisper because sometimes it's so gentle you just unless you're paying attention, you know, you may miss it. So I don't I think it's just on I don't want to say trial and error, but as you as you follow the shepherd, you'll learn to discern his voice and and and for me, he speaks through his word.
Laurie Lind | 00;23;18;09 | So that's true. Yes. And just speaking of that, as the Lord was reassuring you that you're going to be okay, just I would like to ask, how are you? I know you've been through cancer. Your husband passed away a few years ago. You've had some hard things. How are you doing personally?
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;23;36;09 | You know, I'm doing very well, Larry, for the condition I'm in. I'm 74 years old. And so I'm just experiencing some things that I think that come with probably the age that I am. But I'm not worried about what to say. I don't want to submit to it. So I'm doing some things to try to fight the you know, and I think it's very easy at this age if you let go of some of your disciplines, whether it's floor exercise or walking or whatever you do to try to keep yourself physically fit, if you if and I've had to stop a lot of that since November because I've had some surgeries for skin cancer.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;24;23;01 | I skin cancer that just will not go away on my legs. So it's crippled me to an extent. And and it's amazing how quickly I lost some of my physical strength. And so I'm fighting to get that back. I'm not I'm not willing to succumb to some of this weakness. And so I'm doing all sorts of things to try to get my physical.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;24;44;05 | I'll never be where I was, you know, 20 years ago. But I'm I want to be better than I am today. And and I and my aim, besides always wanting to feel better and feel stronger, I want to finish strong. And I believe Jesus is very soon to come back. And this is not a time to wimp out, to stay seated, to pull back in ministry.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;25;07;27 | So, you know, I want to go all out and he knows that. I've told him when he comes back, I want him to find me. And I believe it'll be in my lifetime. And that's a whole nother subject. But I want him to find me on the cutting edge, the sharp edge of commitment, you know, with sword in hand and on the front line of the battle for this generation.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;25;32;03 | And I know I'm going to be bruised and battered and I already am, but I want to be standing I want to finish strong. So that's what I think he was promising me last night.
Laurie Lind | 00;25;40;26 | So I love that, you know, you talk about it, prayer just needs to be an outflow of our whole entire life and it isn't a checklist item. And so and I'm so grateful you've reminded me of that. How do you see that working? I like what you said about how your daughter brings to the burdens of her heart, to the Lord first and then opens the Bible.
Laurie Lind | 00;26;00;27 | You might do it in a different order. Are there other just very practical things you've learned over the years about prayer that might be helpful for our listeners?
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;26;11;08 | I always begin prayer with worship because I think when I worship the Lord for who He is, that whatever I bring to him seems to fall into perspective. You know, it's sometimes what we're facing seem so daunting and but when we begin in worship for who he is, his power, His Majesty, his grace is faithfulness is goodness is kindness is righteousness is holiness is just as, you know, whatever it is, and you you begin in worship, then that helps put your prayer in perspective.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;26;53;22 | And then also, even if I'm saying a blessing for me, I want to spend time thanking him for the blessings that he's given. And and I did that. You know, going through, as you pointed out, the cancer, the surgery, the chemotherapy, the radiation, all of that. But but with my two daughters went with me to just about every session.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;27;18;04 | And but we focus on the blessings, you know, because if you focus on the pain and the suffering, then you just go right down. But you focus on the blessings of God. And they're all around you. They're there and and what it does is just lift your spirits. And so to thank him for his blessings. And then, you know, there's something that comes to my mind that I need to set.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;27;44;13 | Right. And had somebody this morning, I felt two days ago I had been very short with the person because I you know, you get under pressure, you've got so much to do. And then you just sort of I don't snap, but I was just very abrupt. And so I had to call the person and and explain that and offer an apology.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;28;07;26 | And and so I think setting things right, you know, if if it comes to your mind, I know last year or two years ago, I felt like there was somebody that I'd worked with internationally eight, 17 years ago. And God brought that person to my mind and at a challenge trying to find how to locate that person. But I did.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;28;32;01 | And I got a phone appointment and told the person I was sorry I was for and it wasn't so much what I did, although it was some people did in my name and I had allowed it, you know, and a person couldn't have been more gracious and and so just so if there are things in your life you need to clean up, you know that just that time and prayer of confession, you just clean up and then then and all that don't have to take that much time.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;29;00;29 | You know, your worship, your Thanksgiving confession is you bring something to your mind and then then you talk to them about what's on your heart. But but when I read read my Bible, I also want to know what's on his heart. So prayer is not so much getting God, putting our burdens on his heart. He already knows is having his burdens placed on our heart is like Abraham, you know, gone before God in Genesis 18 and knowing that God was going down to Sodom to see what was going on and God knew.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;29;33;10 | But I guess He wanted Abraham to know what was down there. And then Abraham began interceding and I think one reason God was imparting to Abraham the burden for his nephew and for a lot. And Abraham prayed it through. And then, of course, God answered in a different way than Abraham had asked. And that's something we need to recognize, that God doesn't always answer our prayers the way we asked or when we asked or how we asked them.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;30;00;29 | And so Sodom wasn't saved, which is what Abraham was asking. But Abraham's family was saved out of Sodom, which I think is bottom line what he was asking. And God saved Abraham's family out of Sodom. So as we pray, I think God is able to put on our hearts the burden that's on his heart, and then we pray that back to him.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;30;23;24 | So prayer is not just getting from God, but we want, but it's coming alongside God. So He, if we can put it that way, He gets from us what He wants.
Laurie Lind | 00;30;35;28 | And as we are investing in leaders of the next generation or disabling new believers, followers of Christ, how do we pass along these wonderful old understandings about what prayer really is to our next generation of people?
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;30;52;10 | Probably the primary way is to live it out, you know, to set the example, I don't know who listens to your podcast or but if you're a parent in a home, you're a leader. And so what are you doing to teach your children how to pray? And my mother, when I was little, she gave me a little white leather notebook, and in it she told me to list my prayer requests, but to intimidate them and then to leave a couple of ones underneath so I could go back and put the date when they were answered.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;31;20;15 | So she taught me when I was very young to pray specifically and to look for the specific answers. And then my mother was also somebody, my bedroom was above hers in the house and didn't matter what time I went to bed at night I could look out my window. I see the lights on reflected on the trees outside.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;31;41;20 | I could slip down to her room, found her on her knees in prayer, and if I did, I might as well go back up to my room because she wasn't getting off her knees, you know, to be interrupted. And in the morning I could see those lights on the trees again are good answer should be at her big flat top desk.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;31;56;10 | She had 14 different translations of the Bible should be studying her Bible reading and then every morning she called the whole family. Everybody was in the house together for prayer before we went to school. I never like those times because I was always in such a rush to get to school and find my books and I was free to be light.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;32;11;26 | And but it didn't matter. Mother called everybody to the kitchen and she she led in a brief Bible reading and prayer. And she taught me by her example that every day should begin in prayer, no matter how busy we are, how pressured we begin every day with prayer, we can't go forward in the day without that dependency and that and that prayer.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;32;33;10 | And so just just by her example, you know, she taught me and but as well as teaching me personally so so as leaders in the home, I think we need to set that example. We first of all need to get our own prayer life in order and and then share with our children when they're little, to teach them to pray and sincere prayers, you know, real prayers.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;33;00;11 | And if they're older, then just pray with them and for them and teach them to pray for others and and and pray specifically. So they get answers. So I will tell you that I struggle with three areas in prayer. One is concentration. And so sometimes I write my prayers down in order to help me stay focused. I recently published some of those prayers and a book called The Light of His Presence, and it's just a collection of my prayers that I wrote in order to help myself with concentration and then also content.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;33;38;08 | I can struggle with content. When I wrote those prayers, I made sure that I was spending time worship, Thanksgiving confession and then intercession and and consistency. So that's what I try to get up every morning and spend time with them. So those three areas are the biggest battles for me in prayer, but it's worth just making my biggest picture as I keep on battling.
Laurie Lind | 00;34;01;19 | Keep pressing on. Do you still have that little white leather notebook? I do, yeah. Any other advice you would give us? Are there ways, pitfalls we should avoid? Like ways that we may be again, think about prayer or seek to pray that are maybe not quite on track in your understanding.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;34;21;19 | I think one of the things we need to remember is that our relationship with the Lord is a love relationship. So if I oversleep and I rush through my day without that prayer time, you know, not to feel so guilty that you can't come back. Then the next morning. And it's a love relationship. It's not legalistic, it's not you know, he's not going to blame you or punish you because.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;34;51;10 | You slept overslept and you didn't have your prayer time. So that's one thing. And just to remember that it's a love relationship, but because it is, you want to spend time with the one that you love. So and then I think you can also mix up your prayer. So that's in the summertime. You know, I like to go outside early in the morning when it's warmer and have a praise and worship time just outside.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;35;15;29 | You can change where you are. I have a particular place in my home where I pray at. That place is not devotional Bible. It's not the one I travel with or the one I read before I go to bed or or the one I speak from. It's just a devotional Bible has tears stained, marked up on all the margins and starting to fall apart.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;35;34;28 | But in the margins are right. The date and the verse that seem to speak to me and while and so it's just got that in all the margins of the Bible but and but I have that Bible I have a reading glasses I repent, I have a pencil, I have notepaper, maybe not other devotional materials so that when I get up in the morning, I don't have to go looking for those things.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;35;58;08 | You know, they're right there. So they're easily accessible because if you start looking for them, then you know you're going to get distracted by the things you need to do in your house. So I tried to set a time which is first thing in the morning. The prophet Daniel was somebody, if you remember, you know, he prayed three times a day and he had a designated places that upstairs room with the window focus towards Jerusalem, which to me just gave him sort of an eternal perspective.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;36;25;15 | And and he spent time with it didn't matter, you know, what his critics were saying or or what was going on. He was disciplined. And prayer does require discipline. So I don't want to make light of it. It's not an emotional, sentimental exercise. It requires discipline and it's also hard work. At least for me. It's been hard work.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;36;45;05 | But but it's worth the work that you put into it, because that's where your relationship with the Lord is developed and enriched, and that's where you draw alongside is heart and that's where you get your marching orders for the day. If prayer is getting not stale, but sort of like you're getting in a rut, then I'll just suggest, you know, switching it up and change the place where you pray.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;37;11;01 | Or even if you play the piano or if you have a hymn book, you can use that for your praise and worship, where you can play a song that's been meaningful and use that in your praise and worship time. And so just, you know, to keep it fresh. So I don't know if that helps or not, but but over the years I've changed and I've I've kept a list of people that I pray for.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;37;36;21 | I've kept card files, I've kept notebooks. So whatever helps. But you can be creative. Important thing is that you spend you consistent so that every day you're spending time with the Lord and you determine whether it's going to be 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, an hour, whatever it is. But you just keep it like a a commitment that you would make to your doctor's appointment or business appointment or teacher's appointment.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;38;02;27 | You just keep that time with the Lord and and it'll bear fruit.
Laurie Lind | 00;38;08;04 | And that is really good for personal prayer and our personal walk with Christ and our, our just continuous being with him and learning from him and letting him speak to us. And then what about like group prayer, praying with a prayer partner? Small group. I've often wondered like some people will say, Well, I need to get as many people praying about this as I possibly can.
Laurie Lind | 00;38;31;01 | And I've wondered, well, does it matter in God's eyes if one person is praying or 50 or 500 or. And I'm kind of asking a very vague thing here, but your thoughts about corporate prayer, group prayer in terms of how that works. So how does the Lord desire that to happen? I guess?
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;38;51;11 | Well, it may depend on what you're focused on. You know, nationally, I feel like it's not getting as many people in prayer as we can, but as many people as we focused on our need for God to the point that they would intercede for our nation. So I can see that. But but, you know, Jesus said, and we quote that verse so many times, you know, where two or three are gathered together.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;39;19;11 | And so it's not the big group. And I love James when it says the prayer of one righteous man is powerful and effective. And so for myself, I don't look for a big group. My protein right now has ten. I have I have another team that covers my office ministry. So my staff and people like that. There's seven in that prayer team and and so they pray for my ministry staff and, and once a month, I'll have one of the staff people come in and share with them whatever they're going through and they pray over them.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;39;55;01 | And so I very much believe in corporate prayer, but I don't think it has to be I don't think the numbers. But I want our righteous people, people who really know how to pray and are right before the Lord and feel burdened to pray for whatever it is that we're up to. And I have noticed and I just had both of my prayer teams for coffee two weeks ago, and and so we just gathered and I wanted to hear from them what was going on.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;40;22;20 | And then we had a prayer time. And it's and it's so special to hear people praying. And the very thing somebody praises, the very thing that was on my mind, you know, and it's how the Holy Spirit, you just have a sense of the Holy Spirit is moving. And then sometimes and then our office actually on Monday mornings we begin the week with prayer.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;40;41;12 | Just we have a room called the meeting place and it's in the heart of our office. And so our staff comes in on Monday mornings and we just have prayer. And, and this last Monday, I notice when people are praying, it's interesting how as the spirit moves, it puts on one person's heart and the next person prays that and the next great.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;41;02;17 | And it's just the Holy Spirit can stimulate our thinking and our intercession when we're praying in a group. So and I appreciate corporate prayer and I very much appreciate it, but for myself and my ministry, it's it's been necessary.
Laurie Lind | 00;41;23;17 | What are some resources you might recommend to any of us about prayer, whether that's books or things that might help us learn more about how to pray and the value of prayer if we're feeling a bit stagnant in our prayers, maybe.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;41;38;04 | I'm not good, Larry. In formulas and self-help books and prayers that I did write, and I don't have that here, but the light of his presence, which is just a you know, it's not prayers that I pray written down. And I know I've had people say that they're using that as their own prayers. And I had the Valley of Vision.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;42;03;02 | Are you familiar with that? It's a Puritan. It's a compilation of Puritan prayers. And and it's just called The Valley of Vision. And they're they're powerful prayers, but old timey people and and it's a comfort to know that some of those people wrestled with some of the same things I've wrestled with, you know. And so so that's sort of what prompted me to allow the publisher to publish my prayers, because I thought the prayers of these old army people in the Valley of Vision could help me express our my prayers.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;42;33;01 | Then maybe my prayers could help somebody else. And but that's actually what the Psalms are. So the Psalms, so many more David's prayers. And then afterwards, you know, we get into others. But but you can pray it. You can take the words of those psalms or the words of somebody else's or the prayers. I did a study this past spring was on the prayers of Paul and and the New Testament and just went through one by one.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;43;01;19 | Just what does it say? What does it mean? What does it mean? In my life, they're just listing the facts and listing the lessons from the facts and then coming up with questions that I would ask myself. And and so you can do that with prayers and scripture. So I'd rather do that than read somebody else and fill in the blanks.
Laurie Lind | 00;43;18;09 | And then I would take it. You do simply pray Scripture back to God.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;43;23;00 | And he loves to be held to his word. It gives strength. But you can also, of course, put your prayers in your own words. I don't mean that all you can do is praise Scripture back, but but there's a strength, I think, that comes when we hold God to his word.
Laurie Lind | 00;43;40;24 | What else? Time is nearly finished. But if there's anything else, what else would you like to say to our listeners about prayer in any aspect?
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;43;52;00 | I'm just trying to think of something that would come to mind. And what's come to mind is in Revelation five, when it's perhaps the most thrilling chapter, I think in the Bible other than the resurrection, you know, but it's that it's the description that John gives of when Jesus asserts his right to rule the world. And so John looks and he sees the lamb standing in the center of the throne and the lamb, you know, the narrow prince and his hands and feed the lamb that was slain.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;44;22;24 | But he's no longer hanging on a cross, standing in the center of the throne, and he's getting ready to come back and rule the world. And it says that the bowls of incense reform and the bowls where the prayers of the saints and so in some way prayer seems to be something God uses to usher in not only in application, not only his lordship and his authority in our own lives, but actually in the world, that when those bowls of incense are full, that's when Jesus comes back.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;44;59;22 | And that's when you have that fabulous passage where there's the lamb who's slain to receive all glory and wisdom and power and honor. And then all the angels bow down and worship and all the people on the earth, under the earth and the whole universe just rocks and praise. But it seems to be triggered by these prayers, all the bowls of incense full of prayers.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;45;19;04 | And so I wondered whose prayer would be the last one to come in so that God would say, now it's cool. And so I don't want to fall short. I want to make sure that I'm doing my part in praying. So that's soon. And very soon those bones would be filled and Jesus would say, I've got enough, you know, Father's or he would use, as the father tells the son to come back, it's time.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;45;44;08 | It's time to go. So I believe for a living very close to that time. And so when you I don't know how you catch the news. I've read the headlines on the phone or the computer or sometimes watch the news at night and and there's so much suffering in our world, so much lying, so much deceptions, so much corruption, so much greed and those things, you know, if they grieve us, then they grieve the heart of God.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;46;12;19 | And I think it's it's appropriate. Now, my father used to do this. He was a news addict. You know, he loved the news. And of course, it wasn't as bad in his lifetime as it is today. But but he would just break out in prayer. You know, just praying for what he was saying, praying for the burdens that those news headlines gave him.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;46;34;18 | And so, you know, prayer prayer is devotional. It's it's our relationship with the Lord. But it also is a weapon. And it's one of our two offensive weapons prayer and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. So we need to pick up our weapons and pray against this evil that's coming in like a flood.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;46;58;10 | There's a wonderful illustration of Robert Louis Stevenson when he was little and apparently he was in his nursery in London and he was staring out the window and his nanny called him to go to bed. And he just was staring out the window. And she came over and she said, Robert, she said, What are you looking at? And he said, Nanny, look, you said, I'm looking at that man.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;47;18;28 | He's putting holes in the darkness. And it was the lamplighter coming down the street, you know, and and I think sometimes our prayers or our word, God's word, that we give out, maybe we won't change the world, but we can put holes in the darkness. And the darkness is just descending and oppressive, just thick. But but it has not overcome the light.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;47;43;14 | And so we need to turn on the light through our prayers and through giving out God's word.
Laurie Lind | 00;47;49;07 | Amen. Jesus has won the victory.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;47;52;03 | That's right. Amen.
Laurie Lind | 00;47;54;03 | Well, thank you, Anne, so much for your time today and your insights into and expressing your heart and I trust that what we've talked about will be encouraging all of us to pray, pray, pray.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;48;09;01 . So let me just pray for a moment. Can I do that?
Laurie Lind | 00;48;12;06 | Yes, please. Thank you. Thank you.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;48;14;09 | So, Father God, we come before you and we thank you and worship you as our other father, one who has ears to hear, and a mind to think and a heart, the love and arms to embrace. And we come before one that we know loves us so much that you gave Heaven's Treasure as a sacrifice for us to open that way into the meeting place, Lord, that we can go in to the Holy of Holies through the Blood of Jesus, knowing that you'll receive us and you'll hear us.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;48;48;24 | And so, Lord, I pray for all those who will be watching, listening to this podcast, that you'd give them a hunger and thirst for you, that they would want to draw near to you. They would want to hear your heartbeat, would want to know what burdens your heart that they might come alongside and pray back to you, what it is that you're wanting to do for us and through us.
Anne Graham Lotz | 00;49;11;25 | So we just pray Your blessing on Laurie. We pray Your blessing on this podcast we ask that you would use it please for your glory. And we ask this in Jesus name. Amen. Amen.
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;49;23;26 | Thank you so much for listening to Entrust Equipping Leaders today with your host Laurie Lind and our special guest Anne Graham Lotz. Find links to Anne's website, our web ite and to the article Anne wrote for us about prayer in our show notes. While you're there, please take time to leave a review and share this podcast with others.
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;49;47;05 | Next time we get to learn more about prayer from Entrust's own Lynn Blase, who serves with her husband in Serbia. She's learned a lot about prayer from both local Serbian and the local Roma Christians. Subscribe now so you don't miss any new episodes of Entrust Equipping Leaders.
Helpful links
Corrie's article
Entrust online training opportunities
Speaker Name | Start Time | Text
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;00;01;20 | Happy New Year from your friends at Entrust. What are you trusting God for this year? We trust this will be a year of expanded kingdom impact worldwide. As followers of Jesus like you grow closer to Him and let Him shine through you in every aspect of life, we're here to equip you with ideas about how to further your growth in Christ and how to further your kingdom impact no matter where you are.
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;00;28;23 | Today, we continue our two part conversation on finding, receiving and offering ministry training online. Our special guest today is Corrie. She serves as the international director of Entrust Equipping Women. I think you'll find her tips and ideas for making good use of Zoom super practical. So here they are, Corrie and your host, Laurie.
Laurie | 00;00;57;02 | Well, Corrie, maybe you could start off by introducing yourself to us a little bit and what your role is with Entrust.
Corrie | 00;01;04;21 | Sure. My role with the trust is I'm the international director for equipping women, which is the Ministry of Entrust. And my role is really to come alongside our regional leaders and our country leaders outside of the United States.
Laurie | 00;01;22;26 | In the article that you wrote for our blog about Entrust Equipping Leaders, you wrote
Corrie | 00;01;29;17 | That.
Laurie | 00;01;30;00 | Even prior to the pandemic and trust equipping women had begun to kind of explore online training options. What were some of the factors that led you to even start looking into those directions?
Corrie | 00;01;44;22 | Mm hmm. Yes. Well, it was a number of things. We want the trainings to be accessible to all people. That's a high value for trust. And so that would include financial factors. And so when you use a facility, there's costs involved in it. So we're always asking the question, how can we keep costs as low as possible? And there's also transportation involved in going to a training which adds an additional costs for women.
Corrie | 00;02;23;16 | So we just started dreaming about what what could this look like to use an online platform? These issues are another thing that comes up for some of our women. They're not able to get visas from their country to a place where we're offering training. So the idea of a training platform where it could be very low cost for them and yet and require no visa seemed attractive.
Corrie | 00;02;59;07 | We weren't sure if it would be effective, but we wanted to try it out.
Laurie | 00;03;06;24 | And so you did. And you said you began to look into again, this is before the pandemic, before we even knew where the world was heading. You were looking into various options and platforms. You kind of landed on Zoom. What were some of the other platforms that you looked at and what were the maybe the advantages or disadvantages of the different options that you found?
Corrie | 00;03;32;01 | Web X was one of them we were considering. Teaching was another. And then Zoom. And I think I said in the article, Zoom just seemed intuitive. Technology can be a scary thing for some of us, including me. So I, you know, something intuitive that anyone could utilize, but that also had features that would work for us. We needed a whiteboard feature, a we needed a way to do breakout rooms because we do a lot of small group and partner activities.
Corrie | 00;04;10;10 | So Zoom seemed to fit the bill. I think there were others that could have worked for us. Security encryption was another factor that we looked at and and zoom although I know it's had its issues does seem to be holding up under the encryption.
Laurie | 00;04;33;29 | Well, and not only us in trust, but pretty much every ministry or every organization in the world has, as far as I can understand, landed on Zoom. I mean, that seems to be by far the predominant platform that we're all using for online meetings and trainings now.
Corrie | 00;04;51;20 | We couldn't have known that at the time, but it's interesting, you know, that that's I according to my knowledge, that does seem to be the case.
Laurie | 00;05;03;16 | You really you were ahead of your time. And little did you know and even that God knew that he kind of had you ladies beginning to explore this idea of training people online before it really became a necessity. I know you did a couple of beginning of some trainings prior to the pandemic and then it unfolded more during the pandemic.
Laurie | 00;05;26;04 | Maybe just you can describe a little of what that process was.
Corrie | 00;05;30;00 | Yes. Well, our very first training we tried was from our second module, which is called Developing a Discerning Heart, which I think is one of our most popular courses. It has less breakout and practice types of activities in it. And so we thought it might be a little more conducive for an experiment for all of us. And yet it's quite deep and emotional.
Corrie | 00;06;02;07 | There's a lot of sharing. So we also thought this could be fabulous or a complete train wreck yet. So right. So we started investigating who might be available for this first experiment and we were really up front with the women. This is experiments. We want it to be good, praise the best that this will be a good experience for all of you.
Corrie | 00;06;34;25 | But we also want to be upfront that we're we're learning right alongside you all. And so there was a learning curve for all of us as we moved into this.
Laurie | 00;06;46;21 | So the learning curve definitely went on. And as you've gone on to use online platforms and now through COVID and past even, you know, what are some things you've learned? Just just on the logistical side, before we get into the personal connection in the ministry side, logistically speaking, for example, security can often be an issue for certain people in certain countries.
Laurie | 00;07;13;03 | And what have you learned about what is or is not safe like to say out loud or there's certain things you shouldn't say out loud or writing things on a shared screen or in a chat. What are the safety levels of different aspects of Zoom in different countries or regions?
Corrie | 00;07;30;05 | We do always use the encryption and we have people out and trust that continue to monitor that. So I feel some security in what we're offering there. We generally don't record for countries that are higher risk, but we would because that can cancel the encryption. And so that would be one security measure we take. But we are told that all of the features are safe.
Corrie | 00;08;11;02 | Otherwise, in terms of breakout rooms and private chats and whiteboards. So mainly it's the recording piece that we don't do when there's a higher risk situation, just as an extra security precaution.
Laurie | 00;08;32;27 | And what about again, I'm just thinking the logistics first, when you have a lot of people and especially a lot of women, they all start talking at the same time. How do you avoid this? Like and then no one can hear anything. They all cancel each other out. You know, when you talk over each other and you kind of lose time because then it's what what you said, what do you have you learned any tricks to avoid that talking over each other and losing things?
Corrie | 00;08;59;19 | We just mute them all. That's that's all we have to do.
Laurie | 00;09;03;26 | Now, I'm I'm kidding.
Corrie | 00;09;06;12 | I mean, it it it's tricky because there's a delay sometimes, and you don't always see the cues when someone is going to speak up. Of course, that happens in person as well. And I think we handle it similarly online. You know, if if someone begins to speak up and we say, no, you go ahead, you know, and but we do try to talk about expectations and giving room for everyone's voice.
Corrie | 00;09;41;00 | We try to set the parameters ahead of time so that it's understood that we want to hear from everyone. And I think everyone is diligently watching for anyone that is going to speak up. We also use the chat regularly. There is a feature where you can raise your hand. I haven't found that super helpful, but I love how women are always encouraging each other on chat.
Corrie | 00;10;16;22 | You know, someone will be speaking about something personal and you'll see a word pop up. Like I think I gave an example in the article. We're with You are back. That's so encouraging. Thank you so there's there's kind of this sense that even though I'm not going to interrupt you right now, I'm I'm with you. I'm listening to what you were saying.
Corrie | 00;10;44;18 | Mm hmm.
Laurie | 00;10;46;02 | That's a great way to encourage that interaction without the overlapping voices. I love that. On the other hand, you mentioned muting. What have you learned, if anything, about the age old pesky Gertrude, your mute ID is? Someone started to talk and they've gone quite a while and they're still on mute. How do we ever get around that?
Corrie | 00;11;11;21 | That. That's. That's a great question. I don't know if we're ever going to get around that. I think, you know, some visual cues like time out or seemed to work well, but there's always going to be that that issue, I think.
Laurie | 00;11;30;23 | What have you learned about length of time? Like are there certain how long can a session last when somebody is sitting and looking at a screen? Does it work better for longer or shorter or what's an optimum time frame?
Corrie | 00;11;45;20 | You know, I think we're still wrestling with that question. I do believe that we've seen that a three hour time period. It's doable, but it is optimum to offer at least 115 minute break in the middle of that. Although we have had feedback from different groups that, you know, 210 minute breaks, maybe even better option because some women just can't sit as well for a long period of time.
Corrie | 00;12;17;05 | I do think there are some generational pieces to this, too. I think some of the older generation doesn't like to sit for that length of the time, and I'm sure that's a generalization. But I do find that younger people maybe this is not a good thing for younger people, but they're used to screen time, you know, and and sitting there for long periods of time.
Corrie | 00;12;43;25 | So 3 hours seems to work for us. Can we do longer? I have heard of trainings being done that are longer. We have not ventured there because we continue to get feedback that they wouldn't want to go any longer.
Laurie | 00;13;03;01 | So 3 hours overall was maybe a break, but that's per day or like what you do 3 hours in the morning and three more in the evening or the afternoon or just kind of keep it to that's enough for the day.
Corrie | 00;13;15;19 | We generally do 3 hours once a week, but we have tried a format with our fearless Filipinas. They they want to get in and out and we want to get these modules done. So we have tried two days a week, Tuesdays and Thursdays, coming in for 3 hours with them. I still don't think that's optimum because it is it provides very little time for them to really prepare well for the next module.
Corrie | 00;13;46;10 | And that's a value of ours too, is coming prepared, you know, having done the the work, the pre work prior to that time. So I, I still, I still hold to 3 hours a week is a good amount of time. But I'm also open to, you know, whatever else might show us that we could try.
Laurie | 00;14;12;04 | Also, I think you mentioned in your article just some of the the ups and downs, the pitfalls. There's certain things like even just access to to electricity and or the Internet for certain people. How have you dealt with that or other? I can't imagine. There are a whole lot of workarounds to those things.
Corrie | 00;14;36;14 | It is a big challenge for us, and it absolutely is. But I will say we have evidence that where there's a will and that God makes a way and I can use our first Philippines group as an example of that. They you know, the the Internet is just not it's very sporadic and intermittent at best there. And it's expensive.
Corrie | 00;15;08;10 | So many individuals do not have it. So there's an accessibility issue right there. But with the pandemic, we could not do an in-person with them and they wanted to move forward. So minds came together and there was a church that offered a location where they were able to get stronger Internet. And it was, you know, a collective offering.
Corrie | 00;15;39;21 | So the expense was down. And so we had women that were traveling to the church to be there for the 3 hours, and it was during the pandemic. So there were curfews where some of the women had this stay the night at the church because they couldn't go back home because the door ended, you know, before they could leave.
Corrie | 00;16;07;15 | So, I mean, talk about dedicated women. These women were just hungry and that that just blesses us to see their hunger and to see them saying, no, it's not about my comfort. I want to be equipped to, you know, equip others. And in our church. So that that is one way we've worked around it in Africa. We've struggled with the same thing and we haven't had a similar solution there, but we have done a lot more localized trainings there and that has really kind of spurred on the local leadership to get more involved and we'll use features like WhatsApp to do some of the mentoring and the shepherding from the module and even to talk
Corrie | 00;17;07;02 | about some of the questions from the module. So I think you can get creative in those places where Internet is, is an issue. But I also believe there's just going to be those places where this is not going to be the best modality to use.
Laurie | 00;17;26;00 | So when you said in Africa you did more localized trainings, what exactly does that mean?
Corrie | 00;17;30;23 | Well, in Africa right now, there is a main hub in Kenya, which is an international hub. And we have had women from all over East Africa and North Africa come to that hub for training. Well, that wasn't possible during the pandemic. And so it really forced countries within Africa that wanted to continue training women to say, what could we do here in our country?
Corrie | 00;18;03;14 | And so, you know, you some of the women that had been through the training came together under the leadership of our regional leader and started training their women. And it was it was awesome. And so now there is their own version of a hub and a national movement that's forming in these countries, because I think we were kind of forced into it.
Corrie | 00;18;32;10 | And yet also in those places, it wasn't always possible to get together during the pandemic. And so that's where Internet if Internet is an option, what do you do? Well, a lot of the women have phones, and so WhatsApp groups became more accessible to use. So, you know, you just kind of get to think about what is available to the women that you were serving and then work with it.
Laurie | 00;19;03;13 | So just to clarify against those localized trainings that you mentioned, like Zambia works in person. Actually.
Corrie | 00;19;11;05 | Yes, they.
Laurie | 00;19;11;22 | Work. Okay. But then these groups also use some additional technology, like you mentioned, WhatsApp. And I think in your article you mentioned signal, maybe other things. What are some of the uses for those types of platforms again, that the women are using?
Corrie | 00;19;29;21 | Well, those have been great globally for just connecting different cohorts that are going through a module. For one, we have for every module it's become best practices that we form a WhatsApp or a signal group depending on where where they are in the world. Sometimes one of those is more accessible and use than others and we started just giving weekly questions.
Corrie | 00;20;03;16 | I think it was one of our women in the Middle East that started with that idea and we kind of ran with it and really we use that all the time. Now for online modules. So giving weekly questions where women can respond and and it's just light hearted, you know, and post the picture of you doing something you enjoy this week or post the picture of your family.
Corrie | 00;20;30;07 | So they're just getting to know one another. And a lot of these women have never met in person. So, you know, they're getting to know women from other countries and what their daily life is like. And and then it can get deeper over time as relationships form, you know, in the online setting. But in settings like Africa, where there likely won't be as much online use, it was used more for just discussion groups.
Corrie | 00;21;04;06 | So maybe, you know, a breakout group that it's coming together and being mentored and they're looking over their lessons or let's say, our first course facilitating relational learning. They're sharing what their lesson ideas are and they're getting feedback from each other in the group. So they're still getting shepherded and mentored. It's just a little different format and it's just it's fun that some of these things we were forced into because of the pandemic.
Corrie | 00;21;40;05 | But I think it also gives us more tools now in the what we hope is post-pandemic period of time.
Laurie | 00;21;51;06 | Yes, we definitely hope that we're finished with that. So you did mention best practices and I might be crossing over now for minister from the logistics into ministry with Boss. But in your article you said we're we're developing more and more best practices for harnessing this online technology for training. And even since you wrote the article, which is over a year ago, have you discovered additional best practices since you wrote that?
Corrie | 00;22;23;02 | Oh, I think we're discovering new things all the time. You know, we're continuing to evaluate. That's the and the way we evaluate after every module and we think about what how could this be better? I think I mentioned the power of pray together. That is definitely a best practice. And dividing into pairs or threes in breakout rooms makes that timeline doable too, because it only can take 10 minutes.
Corrie | 00;23;00;22 | But typically to put them in pairs and they get to share their hard and they get to pray with others other best practices really mixing it up a lot just as we do in person. We want to change the activities and you want to do that pretty regularly every 20 minutes or so. You're changing it up. So if you're working in partners for this period of time, then maybe you move it back to a large group discussion and or you move it in to a small group of three or where they're doing something else.
Corrie | 00;23;46;02 | Or you change it up and saying, We're going to use chat for this question, especially if you think they're starting to kind of say it a little bit. You know, let's get let's rally and everyone, we want to hear your feedback on this one or that's also a really good time to throw them back and partners when you sense they're getting tired because then they're just there they have to focus and talk and and and it can just be just the thing to kind of keep that engagement up.
Corrie | 00;24;26;18 | And that's that's it. You want them to be engaged in the conversation. So I really think a variety of activities, including time for personal sharing and prayer, having that WhatsApp or signal group discussion outside of that time enriches it so much. Creating space for just some personal conversations. I think I mentioned in the article where we have a tee time where we just get go get our favorite beverage and they love that, you know, so then they show what they're drinking.
Corrie | 00;25;09;02 | And and we also really try to celebrate. And I think we've been growing in our understanding of how that can work. And there's things available to us in our celebrations that we didn't even think of initially. Like, for example, for our Philippines graduation, we brought in all the facilitators that the women have had in different modules online. And so we were all they were all together in a church, but we were all there on a screen.
Corrie | 00;25;46;19 | And we were able to play a small part in that celebration ceremony and bring in words. I think that's becoming a best practice where we can bring in others into that final time to just, you know, give a charge to give some encouragement. And it's kind of like in Hebrews, that cloud of witnesses, you know, that's like, hey, you've been a little part of your journey and now we're here to celebrate with you.
Corrie | 00;26;22;02 | We've had more leaders that have been invited in that time because you have that option. So when you're working with people all over the world, sometimes there isn't an apparently leader to invite. But when you're working with national movements like in the Philippines, it was a perfect option to invite those pastors into this process to be there. Even though they weren't there for the online module, they were there to give certificates to the women and to listen to them, as they said, what they hoped to do with what was entrusted to them in the module.
Corrie | 00;27;05;15 | So I think we're expanding our ideas on who can be involved at different points of the module and really with when you're not there in person, I think the sky's the limit.
Laurie | 00;27;22;25 | I love that. So the Philippines great ones are they are first cyber group, dare we say, like did they begin continue and and graduate entirely online without in-person contact. No.
Corrie | 00;27;42;10 | They did not. Oh they are our very first cohort in the Philippines. Went through the first three modules online and for the fourth module they just went in-person to our Asia hub and they were there for the fourth module together. And it was a wonderful thing because they had mainly experienced one another and they're different facilitators. But now they were going to an international hub where they were meeting people from other countries.
Corrie | 00;28;19;07 | It was their first time out of the Philippines, so it was really some special, you know, they're taking selfies all over the place and just enjoying a different type of learning as they were learning from other sisters and Christ from other countries. So there's the strength of being together with other nationals. There's also just the beauty and richness of coming together at an international hub where you have many countries represented.
Laurie | 00;28;51;23 | Yeah, that's so great. And that they did get some in-person contact time as well as just the screen time element of their training. You did say how interest it's true interest is so focused on the relational aspect of learning and especially equipping women. We really learn from one another and grapple with ideas and work very with one another very, very closely.
Laurie | 00;29;20;12 | So what are some other ways that you get past that screen?
Corrie | 00;29;25;15 | That's a great question. And I think the simple answer is time and attention already. I will say, even for our in-person trainings now, one one thing that is starting to happen is meeting online for one or more times ahead of time so that the women can begin to already start to get to know one another before they ever show up in person.
Corrie | 00;29;57;12 | And so that would be something that was pulled from our online. And now is being applied back to the in-person trainings that we do. But a lot of what we would do in-person is what we would do in an online setting. We just have to be intentional about it and we have to allow time to play its course because relationships take time.
Corrie | 00;30;26;17 | But it is amazing to me how many women have never met but have such a love for others in their group. And that has come through allowing space for personal sharing. And it's time through prayer together. Gather some of the partner prayer that we talked about. It has come through deep sharing over God's Word, which is a central part of every module that we do an interest.
Corrie | 00;31;00;09 | And and I think that's key. Laurie It's really the, the deepest heart connection is over our unity in Christ and over his word, which unites us. And so whether we're doing that in person or we're doing that online, God doesn't. He shows up and as we're interacting with his word, he starts uniting our hearts.
Laurie | 00;31;31;15 | You mentioned that in your article again, that it was really amazing that people that women could actually work through the material and learn the material from the comfort of their own homes online.
Corrie | 00;31;44;13 | Do you think.
Laurie | 00;31;45;29 | Do we concentrate as well when we're sitting in our own home, in our living room or our kitchen or our desk, as when we're all in a big meeting room around a table with one another?
Corrie | 00;31;59;14 | It's not a leading question.
Laurie | 00;32;01;17 | So it's a leading question. That's also a yes, no question. So it's a very bad trust question on two levels to apologize for that, maybe I can rephrase that. What impact does online training have on our concentration in our own home on screen as opposed to together in a in the same physical space?
Corrie | 00;32;23;16 | Well, there there are distractions at a home that you just can't get around. But I think I mentioned in the article, you know, the dog that starts howling in the background or the toddler that comes walking in. I'm praying our four year old doesn't walk in at any moment because I gave him instructions not to get. Yeah, right.
Corrie | 00;32;50;07 | And and I think there's other temptations, like you have an email right there and maybe your online days that you think, well, someone just sent me an email or know there's a phone in and you see attacks come in. So yes, yes, for sure there are distractions. But I think you can also get so engaged in the content that you want to be a part of what is happening there.
Corrie | 00;33;25;29 | And and you go with the flow. You know, we do set up our trainings by saying, you know, there's noise in the background, just mute yourself. And unless you're facilitating, you know, that's that's an option available to you. But I do find largely that women want to be present and they want to be heard and they also want to hear others.
Corrie | 00;33;53;00 | And so that takes attentiveness. And I do think in general, although I'm not monitoring what they're doing on the phone. So, you know, I do find their engage, you know, they're looking they're they're they're nodding there. They're there. And I'm sure their attention goes up and down like all of ours. But they when you want to be somewhere and you're engaged in the topic, you will allow yourself to to focus despite the distractions.
Laurie | 00;34;26;25 | In your article, you mentioned that we have started to do hybrid modules. Maybe you could explain a little bit more what what that is and what that looks like.
Corrie | 00;34;35;23 | I find this so exciting actually, because I think it pulls some of the best of both spheres of learning. We've had a camp that's always been firmly in the we have to stay in person. Yeah. Then we have slowly convinced others that, hey, maybe this online thing could work. Well, this would be a hybrid of both of those, so it would be starting with an online portion for say, nine weeks and then concluding by coming together for a long weekend, usually three days in person.
Corrie | 00;35;20;02 | So it brings some of the best together in terms of you've already developed relations just online with those people, but you've also done a lot of the content and then they're excited to see one another in-person. And you know, they've already done a lot of the bonding online. It also makes it much more accessible as we only need a training center meals for three days versus a full intense, which for us is usually six or seven days.
Corrie | 00;35;59;02 | But this it's it's exciting. I know that there's a hybrid going on in Ecuador right now as we speak in Spanish. And I just got off a call just today with our Middle East team, and they were sharing how they had experimented this year with the in-person hub. They had two modules that were there for the entire week, and then they had one module that did the hybrid approach and just joined that group.
Corrie | 00;36;34;21 | It was our third module, Discovery Bible study. They joined that group for just the last three days and they said it was just awesome because it brought energy to the whole group. All of a sudden more people are showing up at the party, you know, so they are talking in the in the Middle East about how it is increasingly hard for women to get off or 6 to 7 days of work or away from their families.
Corrie | 00;37;05;10 | You know, women have a lot of commitments, so they are really wrestling with maybe going to and a whole hybrid approach.
Laurie | 00;37;13;15 | One other question. I was you said in your article, God is even allowing a trust to become a resource for partnering organizations who need an understand a little bit more about how this training works online. Are you able to name any of those organizations or can you tell us anything about how is it trust serving as a resource to other ministries?
Corrie | 00;37;37;22 | Early on in the pandemic, there were organizations that had never tried it in online form before, and we certainly weren't experts at it. And I don't know that we can say we are now, but we're further down the road and we were further down the road and some of those organizations that were looking into it. So I don't know that I remember specific names of organizations that we worked with, but it's like the word got out and we already partner with so many organizations as it is.
Corrie | 00;38;16;21 | So when one is talking and they hear, well, interest is doing this, we were getting requests more and can we learn what you're doing? Can we learn about best practices? And so that's when we started forming our best practices just in a document to be able to share with these. That's when we did, we created just some simple Zoom trainings so that we could share, Hey, this is what we're learning.
Corrie | 00;38;50;06 | You know, we're not the experts, but this is what we've learned so far in what's working for us. And so, yeah, it was a privilege to be able to pass along what we have learned.
Laurie | 00;39;03;05 | We've talked a lot about how good it all can be, what are the downsides or the pitfalls to online training?
Corrie | 00;39;12;18 | You know, we have had those those moments where you think this is a train wreck, you know, and where I can think of a few times with the Philippines in particular, where Internet is such a challenge, where we have, you know, someone dropped off a call and then all of a sudden this person, we couldn't hear where all of a sudden there's so many distractions that you're you're just you might as well laugh or cry, you know?
Corrie | 00;39;45;25 | Yeah. Like all learning as I think the the pitfall would be to assume that it can't happen when things go awry because the Philippines is just a really good example of how you kind of dust yourself off and you move on, you know, and you say, that didn't work well, but you then get testimonies for how God's working in the lives of these women and how that how they're excited about the material.
Corrie | 00;40;27;15 | And so we can keep pressing on here. So, so not giving up when things don't go as planned they want. There's always going to be some kind of issue. We've had women that want to leave a breakout room and they leave the call completely. And also dropping off looks that happens, you know, at least once every every module we do.
Corrie | 00;40;56;17 | So some things, things will happen. But just moving on and flexing with it, I think is key. I think bringing in those person all elements is critical. So if in the interests of being fast as many Americans are excited about fast getting things done, being quick about it, it would be easy to say, well, let's cut out this social topic and what we don't need this prayer time or we don't need to do this.
Corrie | 00;41;39;07 | And yet that is really, I think, the glue that makes it work. All those relational pieces that are kind of woven in to the core content. So not trying to be fast and really just making sure those core elements are still there and those opportunities to relate.
Laurie | 00;42;08;18 | I'm wondering if you have any scenarios that just really are not a good idea to do online.
Corrie | 00;42;14;15 | I think we would have with each module that we've added, we've thought we might find that thing. Yeah, just discovery Bible study, for example, our third module. You know, one of the practices is you have to give a message and we thought, how is that going to work online giving? They have to give a 15 minute talk about a biblical passage.
Corrie | 00;42;45;04 | And so we thought that might be a disaster, but it wasn't God. God use that. So I will say there might be those things where it will be a train wreck and you do need to have semi strong internet to have an effective learning experience. But God has worked in every module that we've added online and so I guess I have a high degree of confidence that you can do most learning online.
Corrie | 00;43;25;19 | You're going to miss some components, perhaps. You certainly can't go and have lunch with those individuals afterwards, which is a loss because you want to, as you're getting to know them. But I do think that learning can take place. I will say in some countries we have more women that don't have computers. And, you know, in America, we think everybody has a computer that's just so accessible and it's just not true in many of the countries we're working in.
Corrie | 00;44;03;09 | So initially we had said we would not allow a woman to be on the phone and I would still say a computer is a best practice I hold to that. But we have women in countries in Asia that would have never had that opportunity to be equipped if we had been legalistic and held to that. And they, they learned and they've multiplied.
Corrie | 00;44;34;23 | So yeah, they could see everyone on their screen at the same time. It was a modality that maybe wasn't as sharp for learning and yet God used that for them because that was what they had.
Laurie | 00;44;51;02 | Use what you have. And if the only thing available is a phone. Okay? Yes. God is bigger than our technology aggressiveness. Yes, well, we're nearly at the end of our time. But has anything else come to your mind that you would like to mention about training and equipping Christian leaders online?
Corrie | 00;45;12;22 | Let me just don't don't be afraid of a skeptics in your organization, because I think people are growing more comfortable in utilizing technologies. But there are a number of people that it's just not their thing to do. And so, you know, treading gently in trying to bring in some more innovation with online options, but also not letting people, the naysayers about it, you know, and letting it try something out and just saying, let's try this and then I'll wait.
Corrie | 00;46;01;00 | And and so there they know those people that are a little fearful about using certain new technologies that this is not something we have to commit to forever. And blood, you know. But but but but let's try, you know, let's see what God can do with that. And then let's have let's see, evaluate what more it could do.
Laurie | 00;46;28;03 | And God can use any technology for his good purposes. It was great to visit with Corrie this week from Entrust. Go back and listen to the previous podcast episode that we put out with Dr. Timothy Westbrook of Harding University, also about equipping leaders online. And then you can read both articles one by Dr. Westbrook and one by Corrie on our Web site at Entrus4.org under resources.
Laurie | 00;46;56;07 | Next week, my guest will be Anne Graham Lotz and we will be talking about prayer. I look forward to seeing you then. Thanks for listening.
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;47;05;28 | You've been listening to Entrust Equipping Leaders, a podcast resource from your friends at Entrust Today. Today's guest, Corrie is the international director of Entrust Equipping Women. Join us next time, January 20th, for a very inspiring conversation with Anne Graham Lotz about prayer. Be ready to be challenged to the very core about your prayer life.
Helpful links and resources
Dr. Westbrook's article: https://www.entrust4.org/post/online-pastoral-training-for-international-ministry-networks
Entrust's online learning opportunities: https://www.entrust4.org/equippingwomenregisteronline
Harding University's Distance Education program: https://www.harding.edu/academics/online
Speaker Name | Start Time | Text
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;00;03;16 | Merry Christmas from all of us at Entrust. We're so glad you've found our Entrust Equipping Leaders podcast. Maybe today, while you're wrapping those last gifts or taking a refreshing walk away from the noise, listen in to a chat about using online technology to make a difference in people's lives. Just like this podcast. Digital media is here to stay and God is showing us how to use it well for his purposes.
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;00;33;25 | Today's guest is Dr. Timothy Westbrook from Harding University in Arkansas. You'll be inspired by all he's learned about how to use online platforms for training people in ministry. So without further ado, here are Dr. Westbrook and your host Laurie Lind.
Laurie | 00;00;55;05 | I'd like to welcome our guest today, Dr. Timothy Paul Westbrook, the director of the Center for Distance Education and Bible in Ministry at Harding University in Searcy, Arkansas. Welcome to Equipping Christian Leaders. Dr. Westbrook.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;01;12;12 | Thank you. It's an honor to be here.
Laurie | 00;01;15;12 | Appreciate you joining us and thank you for writing your article for our blog, also called Equipping Christian Leaders. And the topic at hand today is online learning in general. But first of all, how did you come to be working in the position that you are at Harding University?
Dr. Westbrook | 00;01;33;28 | Oh, yeah, that's a great question. One of the things that's funny about professional organizations, when we get together and talk about distance education, there might be a few young up and coming stars who all their lives they wanted to be an expert in online education or they wanted to be in this field. But most of us just kind of ended up here one way, one way or the other.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;01;58;05 | My first experience with online or distance education was while I was still we're still missionaries. We took a tape course with our our school on Harding. Back then it was called Harding Graduate School, Religion, and then I had an online class that involved listserv email. And then as a so as a student, I had these early archaic versions of distance education or digital education, I should say.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;02;25;02 | And but then when I when I was hired by Harding in 2005, one of the primary tasks that I was assigned to do was for us to develop one or two online Bible classes. The idea was there might be somebody out there that wants to take, and so we need to have a class. We're hiring you to build one and then the rest is history after that.
Laurie | 00;02;45;09 | Wow. So did you say the very beginning? It was tape. Are we talking cassette tapes?
Dr. Westbrook | 00;02;50;17 | We had we had cassette tapes mailed to us in Hungary from the U.S. We listened to them and took quizzes and wrote papers from that. I learned a lot, but I'm glad that we have other options now.
Laurie | 00;03;05;07 | That goes back a few generations of technology, but things have changed rapidly for all of us. I, too, remember the era of cassette tapes. Yes. So as was the director for the Center for Distance Education, what are some of the actual aspects of your job?
Dr. Westbrook | 00;03;25;18 | My office oversees all of the undergraduate Bible classes for Harding University, so we don't we don't do. I mean, there are other offices that work with distance ed and other disciplines, but when it comes to the undergraduate Bible ministry and we have a a student population of about 4000, most of those most of those students are not going to be taking online Bible classes.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;03;48;28 | But within the 4000, we have some nontraditional students who who are invited to take online Bible classes. We have students on internships who were away for study abroad program. And so they they'll take an online Bible class while they're traveling. But the primary focus of what I do and it's interesting because my ah, our degree program is actually called Equip at Harding University.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;04;13;05 | So there's a little bit of ideological overlap with with what you're doing, with what we're doing. It could be just a wonderful word. It is. And so we have within equipped we have a degree track where we offer a 128 hour degree in Bible ministry that you can get online or combination of on campus and online. We have it.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;04;35;17 | We have certificate options. So we have a certificate in Biblical Studies and certificate and Christian ministry and use of the word certification t can be misleading. We're not certifying people to do anything, but this is more of a recognition that they've completed these hours. But but all the all the courses are for credit. And, and then we have the occasional person who just wants to take a class.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;04;58;09 | Also for credit, but they take a class 11a semester just for continuing education purposes.
Laurie | 00;05;04;05 | Do you actually write some curriculum or do you teach some of those courses?
Dr. Westbrook | 00;05;10;13 | All the above we have currently we roll out about 15 different subjects a semester. And so I'm not teaching all of them or designing all of them, but but I have designed a few and I teach I teach one of the classes that we offer each semester. But we, we hire people. So some of our teachers are faculty at Harding.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;05;31;02 | Some of them are adjunct faculty. And it's it's actually it's about 5050 full time versus adjunct faculty. But I love the fact that we can recruit somebody from Virginia who's a preacher or a pastor there to teach about congregational ministry to our students on online, or a missionary in Rwanda who's teaching about church planning and evangelism. And so it's it's just really exciting to bring these these worlds together like that.
Laurie | 00;06;00;11 | That is amazing. Like the digital world now. It's not just the certain people that are physically living right there on campus or nearby in Arkansas. Anybody can be on your faculty, so to speak, or adjunct faculty. It's just such a new world that we're in. I love it. So you did mention that certificate of completion in Christian ministry.
Laurie | 00;06;22;10 | What are some of the the topics that the students study, what kind of projects do they do? How does that certificate work?
Dr. Westbrook | 00;06;30;19 | Well, first of all, all of our classes, especially for the certificate students, they're they're what we call asynchronous. So there's no live time, but they're also dynamic. So I'm a big believer in the concept that the online courses are not digital correspondence courses, you know, a traditional correspondence course, you send them reading literature or something to read or a tape to listen to, like in the old days.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;06;55;14 | And you do the assignments and a teacher checks, you know, checks the rubric or looks at the answer key to see if they got the bubbles correct. And those quizzes that they filled out. I remember those correspondence courses. These classes are very dynamic. All of them involve interaction with professors and the students and I'm a big Parker Palmer fan and his subject centered approach to education, where you hold the subject matter out there and then everybody who's around the table talks about that and you learn from each other.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;07;30;11 | So all of these classes are asynchronous. They all have a heavy written component with discussion boards, and the assignments and assessments might might include quizzes. Typically, I would encourage online to be open books. That way it becomes more of a learning exercise and it reduces the the cheating factor, the temptation to cheat, even in a Bible class, you know, you worry about those things.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;07;58;03 | But then with like some classes we where they're heavy on skills, we also will have group projects and we'll have summative assessments where the students are collaborating together with a goal in mind that brings together everything that they're learning in the semester or in the course. I mean, for that one project.
Laurie | 00;08;19;25 | Wow. It's a lot of collaboration, a lot of kind of hands on in a way, as much as it can be a.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;08;27;26 | Yeah for me as long as I'm in this the seat at Harding are online education programs will always be hands on so you don't want to learn you don't want to lose that that person to person component to to the learning experience. If it becomes just a, you know, a mass like a very impersonal, large enterprise, then we lose some of the joy and beauty that we have in Christian education.
Laurie | 00;08;57;24 | In your article for our blog, Equipping Christian Leaders, you said that this certificate you just see it as a win, win, win. Why do you see that as so beneficial?
Dr. Westbrook | 00;09;09;15 | The way I look at this, it's it's an opportunity that benefits both the university as well as the students. So universities have to have tuition revenue to survive. There are ministries that that raise money to pay for student tuition and pay for expenses. But this is a university like like ours. We we live and die by students who sign up and pay for the classes.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;09;37;14 | But we're we're reaching students who are in a in a different part of the world, in different socioeconomic setting. And and so with the with the scholarship fund that we have available to them, it's called the International Christian Leadership Development Fund that pays for all the tuition, it pays for all the books, for all the fees of the students.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;10;00;03 | So the only thing the students had to bring to the table is they have to have their own Internet connections. They had to bring they had to have their own devices to use. And I realized that for some people, that actually is a dealbreaker. But but at the same time, like I mentioned, we've had students all over the world on every continent except for Antarctica.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;10;20;06 | We need to work on that one. Still. But in in every location, people have been able to figure that side of it out. So they have some skin in the game, but it's affordable. And then the Win-Win side of it is because there's this fund that pays for the tuition at the university, you know, benefits university. Then the students, they get 100% of the education without leaving their home, whereas the traditional model that of of well, you can have training facilities on location which are fantastic.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;11;00;04 | But we've also seen students from different places around the world leaving their contexts to come to the U.S. or go to Europe to study. Once they're finished, they may or may not ever leave. And it's not just internationally. We have the same thing within the United States. People come from the Northeast, they come from Canada, they come from Northwest to the Bible Belt to the United States.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;11;22;17 | They finish their degrees and they don't return to where they came from. They get jobs in Arkansas or Tennessee or Texas. And so in a situation where the last thing we want to do is recruit these very capable and intelligent and bright minded leaders in from churches around the world, the last thing we want to do is uproot them and take them out of that context.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;11;49;14 | Rather, what we're trying to do is just send that information, send those learning experiences to them so they can stay in place and use them for their own works, good works. And in that way, we feel like we're participating alongside of them in their ministries.
Laurie | 00;12;02;28 | Yes, I love that. And like you said, they're learning in context. Even as they're doing their coursework and learning, they are in their culture, their ministry context. And so. Oh, how does this apply to this unique thing where I live that's very relevant in real time to them, I'm sure.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;12;21;22 | Absolutely.
Laurie | 00;12;22;23 | Would you say are there any kinds of people or types of training for which online learning would not be especially preferable?
Dr. Westbrook | 00;12;33;03 | Yeah, I love that question. You know, it's interesting because I would I would definitely say yes. And probably the the quick answer would be online education does require a sense of independent learning and self-directed learning. And so even though we have dynamic courses that we build, it's up to the student to have the mode of self-motivation to do the work and get it done.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;13;02;20 | That's probably the biggest requirement. Now, having said that, online education has tremendous ability to create barriers for student learning, but it also has tremendous opportunities to take down barriers. So when we think about it, say, for example, someone who has visual impairment and that's a hot topic for those of us in the in the field, if you have a written based course, can somebody who can't see the documents benefit from that course?
Dr. Westbrook | 00;13;35;14 | And so when we design courses, we've got to think about screen readers and using the types of files that screen readers can read for the students. If you have images on the screen, we want to make sure that there's an alt text in there so that a screen reader can tell the person who's in the course what that image is is trying to depict or show and so on the one hand, I can think of all sorts of ways.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;14;00;25 | A poorly designed course would create barriers for people with different experiences of reality. You know, and, and yet at the same time, we, we can design courses in such a way where we take down those barriers. But I will say this, that the problems that we that we have with the social problems that we have with humanity in the non-digital world, by extension find their ways into the digital world.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;14;27;23 | So as we think about online education, we've got to think about accessibility, we've got to think about culture, we've got to think about what race, how that's factored into online experiences as well. So to answer your question, I would say there there's online if done well, online education is probably more accessible than any other version of of education because it can be transmitted worldwide.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;15;00;22 | But if it's not done well and then those same barriers that we face in other areas of education will creep into the online education, too. But at the very, very basic quick answer, I'd go back to what I said at the beginning, that that if a person is not able to take on that challenge of being a self-directed learner in the online, then it's really hard to motivate somebody to turn on their computer and and do the assignments.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;15;31;16 | And I think that's part of the pushback we see with the COVID era, with K through 12 is parents are worn out. They don't know how to get their students motivated to do the work. People are tired of looking at their screens. Well, that's probably not the best use of online education, but in the right context, with the right preparation and training, even K through 12 can be a successful learning experience.
Laurie | 00;15;57;01 | You said something that sparked a thought for me. You did say issues about race which are world wide, can hinder or impact online learning. Could you talk a little more about that? How does that happen or how do we overcome that?
Dr. Westbrook | 00;16;14;00 | Oh yeah. That is a topic that's that's really close to my heart. I've I've written about it elsewhere and spent quite a bit of time in the last ten years or so being involved in the conversation and say, for example, a cohort model for an adult learning program, if a school is predominantly white and they insist on a cohort model, they might have, you know, out of 20 people in a cohort is 20% are people of color.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;16;45;13 | Then you have just a handful of people who are who are not white in the class, in the cohort. And so if you insist on the cohort model, then that's that the people who are who are in a racial minority, you know, underrepresented population will continue to be underrepresented the entire experience in that school. And so while on the one hand it sounds like a great idea to have a cohort where people get to know each other really well and we're colorblind, we don't see any of these things.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;17;19;24 | You're you're also locking people into a certain kind of experience, you know? So you've got to think about that sort of thing in a way where the the options there are people who who when they come to an online experience, are already experiencing stereotype in their own context. Or they might have experienced and I'm thinking just, you know, U.S. based right now, they might have experienced different forms of prejudice and racism in another place, another school or at their current location.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;17;52;07 | And so all of that comes to that online experience. Like those past experiences come to the online experience and the expectation of what people have. And if a predominately white school that's designing a program doesn't recognize that doesn't account for those experiences, doesn't make sure that that experiences of racialization don't continue or creep into the courses themselves, then it's just going to repeat the same kind of thing.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;18;23;11 | There are cases where somebody might not show their face, choose not to show their face on a class in a classroom because they're not sure if it's a safe environment, for example, you know, or there's instances where somebody prefers to prefers to write their answers rather than record them because and this is a quote, because you can't hear your they can't hear my accent in the in the paragraph that I write.
Laurie | 00;18;55;05 | Well.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;18;55;27 | You know, so the point is, is that people who are experiencing racialization don't stop experiencing it just because they're online. And so people who create these courses and manage these courses need to be aware of that and think about ways to just level the playing field. Don't don't whitewash everything, don't colorblind everything, but think but try to celebrate that diversity.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;19;21;15 | Make sure that the learning experience is a safe experience for everybody.
Laurie | 00;19;24;17 | Well, that's a very interesting, very good consideration. That can see how hard that would be in lots of different ways for sure. You know, a lot of us have experienced Zoom. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone, even in Antarctica, perhaps, who doesn't know all about Zoom at this point, are there other online learning platforms that you're aware of or that you've used that you think are useful?
Laurie | 00;19;49;18 | Or and which platforms do you personally think are the best for online education?
Dr. Westbrook | 00;19;55;25 | Well, so depending on how you how you do teach your classes, if it's live, then you need something like Zoom. Google Meet is another one that's pretty, pretty good. The one thing that's missing from most of them except for Google Meet is is a live or a AI artificial intelligence closed captioning. I know that some people are buying into packages and they're integrating that into zoom.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;20;25;05 | But but this is also in accessibility kind of concern somebody from the ADA needs it needs to have a hard conversation with these private companies that are creating these platforms to remind them, hey, we want everybody to be able to see what's going on here. And so whether it's it's a hearing impairment or English as a second language, we need to be able to have that teletext running across the screen, you know, all of these platforms.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;20;50;11 | But Google me, it's a good one. Zoom's a good one. Even something like Facebook Messenger, you can use video conferencing. Any Skype is still out there. All of them function about the same way. And in my opinion, it's just whatever, whatever you have a license for to use. What I like about Zoom is that if I have a license, most people can use it for free.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;21;14;21 | But I have a license for, you know, unlimited usage. And nobody that I send a link to has to have that. They can just link into the Zoom link and and we're we're on line WhatsApp for the international world. Everybody outside the United States is using WhatsApp for some reason we don't hear but that's another really good tool to use as well.
Laurie | 00;21;37;10 | I do think Zoom has the closed captioning option too because we've used.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;21;42;25 | Maybe I need to update mine.
Laurie | 00;21;44;16 | Here and we used it. We do a lot of our meetings with interest, even our internal staff meetings and they do turn on closed captioning and so we do see the, the words running by on the bottom of the screen there. So if we're let's just say that we're talking to a person who is going to begin to teach a course online in some way, even through their local church or seminary or any thing.
Laurie | 00;22;10;12 | What would be some of the most important things they should keep in mind in order to really maximize that learning experience for their group?
Dr. Westbrook | 00;22;20;09 | Teacher engagement like teacher student engagement is is probably the most critical part to it all. Now, if your your design is is lived in this, the teachers are going to be present. But if it's asynchronous, the plug and play kind, you know, way of thinking about online education is one way of having a very bad experience. If you're not present with your students, if you're not responding to their discussion post, if you let more than a day go by before you respond to an email or to a message through your elements or your learning management system, then your students will automatically go into this panic mode.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;23;03;05 | And if they if they have a panic experience, they're not going to enjoy what they're what they're experiencing. And so and from just an educational theory perspective, people learn best when they're when they're happy, you know, when they're upset or nervous or stressed out. The our ability to think, our cognitive functions focus on something else. And so that that engagement factor is probably the most important part of it all.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;23;38;04 | If you're if you're doing a live zoom, zoom meeting or something like that, then I think you're going to have good engagement anyway. Then I would say try to cut out some of the the mystery involved. I think we've all been part of Zoom meetings before. We're we had a set time and let's say it's 9:00, 9:00 rolls around and we still don't have a link.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;24;06;01 | You know, and we're waiting for that, that host to send the link for the meeting to start the little things like that just create anxiety. And when you create anxiety, it creates frustration. It leads to frustration with the course. And and if you can reduce that through clear communication being present in the courses and maybe even going overboard on making sure that everybody has what they need, then that's that's going to that's going to lead to a good learning environment.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;24;38;16 | Some people probably would focus on like background and microphones and lighting and all that sort of thing. That's not my area of expertize and I don't tend to worry about that as much. But but being that person who's present and attentive and reassures the participants that it's going to be fine, whatever happens is going to be fine. It leads to successful learning experiences.
Laurie | 00;25;03;01 | That's that's really good. And then on the other side, what about the person who's maybe about to embark on their first online learning experience on the recipient side of the learner? What might be a couple of things for them to keep in mind to make sure they maximize on that that learning opportunity?
Dr. Westbrook | 00;25;21;01 | Oh, yeah, I love that. Well, definitely. So the flip side of that, don't don't assume too much don't disappear. But chase after the information. So if something's not working, if you don't have if you don't have a link, you can't see your course in your illness. Then reach out to the whoever is your contact person, reach out to them and ask, don't worry about annoying people.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;25;52;02 | It's their job to, you know, they're getting paid for you to annoy them. So don't worry about that. If anything annoys, you know, whoever is in charge, then maybe, maybe it's not a good fit for them. Yeah. So don't worry about it. Pursue it, pursue the information. If you don't assume that, if you can't see it, that everything's going to be okay.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;26;15;24 | Because it could be that you're not enrolled in the class like you should be, and that's why your course isn't popping up. It could be that you can't see the course because it hasn't started yet, but it's good to know that information. So for somebody who's new, I would say don't panic, but if you have questions, don't be afraid to ask.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;26;33;26 | And until everybody is on the same page.
Laurie | 00;26;37;26 | Which is almost the same to in-person training too, we've always heard. No, the only bad question is the unanswered question. Right? If you don't understand something, ask. And even so, in online learning, the asking may be related to the process as well as to the content. At some points. What are some of the greatest dangers or pitfalls that we should watch out for when we're developing online learning experiences, especially for people in ministry like leadership training, Bible training?
Dr. Westbrook | 00;27;12;22 | You know, one of the pitfalls I think, would be to have this bias against the technology in such a way that we don't use it for its benefits. On the flip side of that, another pitfall is to be so enamored by the bells and whistles that we get excited about new tools and we roll things out and we let the technology we we get we let the new fancy technology get us too far ahead of where our students are.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;27;45;29 | People are. And and then it just becomes a frustration of having to learn something new all the time. So I would, you know, as far as the technology goes, I would want I would say both of those sides stay stay current, don't get too far ahead. Find out where your people are. And that's that's the best tool for you to use if you know and I think about this intercultural, for example, I don't know if you're familiar with the Hofstetter model of of cultural dimensions, but one of the the the different cultural indexes, one of the things that I think about a lot is are the people that that I'm working with overseas.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;28;29;20 | Are they from a more individualistic society or collectivist are they do they have a high power distance expectation in their culture? How are they about uncertainty? Do they have high levels of uncertainty, avoidance in their culture? And when I look at hostage categories for Central Europe, for example, as I mentioned before, we were missionaries in Hungary. Hungary, compared to the United States, is much higher on the uncertainty avoidance scale.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;29;00;13 | What that means is, is that if something is unknown or uncomfortable, then culturally speaking, in the Hungarian national culture, people would tend to dismiss themselves from that uncomfortable situation. Rather than engage it or try to work things out, they would just kind of just disappear. So I started thinking about how does that manifest itself on social media? Because the Hungarian friends I know, especially the younger ones, they're posting pictures of themselves all the time.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;29;34;12 | And. And what are those? What are they wanting to post? What are they wanting to share it? What are they not wanting to share? Knowing these cultural these cultural impulses in the country? And and so the interesting thing is, is that as we if I were to develop, of course, specifically for a culture that has high uncertainty avoidance, then one of the things I might be mindful of is that people in that within that sphere may not share as much about their personal lives as people who have a lower uncertainty avoidance.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;30;14;15 | So I guess my point is, is that you can't have a one size fits all mentality to your your courses. You got to think about where your people are coming from, what are their cultural expectations. We can incorporate people into our our new space together. This is a new culture in the online. But if we expect everybody to be just like me or just like you, or to deal with it and live with it without any type of extra conversation about how we want the culture of this school in this course to be like, then that is a pitfall because we'll start to lose people.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;30;54;13 | People will start to check out, they won't complete courses, they get frustrated. And so that's when I talk about culture and how it plays into online the online world. That's an example of the kinds of things I'm thinking about.
Laurie | 00;31;09;07 | That brings in that concept of contextualization. Maybe someone to knowing your listening, your audience is context, knowing how to work in a way that works in their context and not expect them to jump over to yours necessarily. And you did make a good point to the online. Online is maybe developing a new culture distinct from Hungarian or American or Canadian.
Laurie | 00;31;35;19 | Do you think there's something about that? There's a new culture coming out here.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;31;40;08 | There's something you know. And I don't know if it's a new culture or a blend of cultures in a new way. But but there's definitely a way that culture influences how people come to the Internet, and the Internet influences what people take back to their cultures. And so there is this very interesting marketplace right now that's online.
Laurie | 00;32;00;23 | You mentioned something about you're a big fan of Parker Palmer, and I'm not familiar with who those people are or what that theory is. Can you explain that a little bit more?
Dr. Westbrook | 00;32;12;02 | Yeah. So maybe I'll start with just kind of a story when people talk about when they talk about what they teach, you might go around the room to a bunch of faculty and they might say, Well, I teach Old Testament or I teach Hebrew or I teach family ministries. But, but really at the heart of of where Parker Palmer is coming from, we teach students, right?
Dr. Westbrook | 00;32;41;06 | We're not the subject matter is what we're the information we're passing along. But our our our main focus is to transform the hearts and lives of our students. And so the the the subject based theory or or concept basically says that we're not we're not teaching for the sake of the teacher because she or he enjoys hearing themselves talk.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;33;11;01 | You know, we're not or they have a job to do is we're not teaching just for the sake of student satisfaction, you know, or grades or whatever or we're doing is we're we actually have something important to look at, something important to investigate. We have information out there that needs to be explored. So we put that subject in the middle.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;33;32;23 | And then as as people who are further down the road than are our students, we we come to the conversation and we invite our students to come to that same conversation. And we analyze that, that subject matter together. So that's where the whole subject based terminology comes from or subject focused terminology. It's it's also, I would say, dips into the idea of constructivism where knowledge is is socially constructed.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;34;04;24 | It's not 100% going that direction, but it kind of dips the toes into it a little bit because it's this it it's a it's a it's an attitude that says, I'm not going to tell you what you need to know, but I'm going to show you what there is to know. And we're going to try to figure out what we need to know together.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;34;29;27 | And I think that's a beautiful way to look at education in general. But in an online context, if you think about every online course is basically a flipped classroom where you give the students information, you connect the student, you have information in the course, you connect students with information outside the course. And then you say You have all this stuff that you can look at.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;34;53;18 | Now let's talk about it. What are you what are you learning? How can I learn from you? How can you learn from each other? And then let me say a few things about this, too, that I think is important that might help you.
Laurie | 00;35;06;03 | I like what you quoted, you said it's a hackneyed old rhyme, but I had not heard it before that the teacher is the guide on the side and not the sage on the stage.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;35;17;00 | Yes. Yes, that's right. Well, I hear it way too often. It was it was funny. The first time I heard it. About 15 years later ....
Laurie | 00;35;25;26 | ... You can be done with that one! Now, is there anything else that I haven't asked you that you wish I would ask you or you'd like to mention, especially about the topic of online in equipping for Christian leaders?
Dr. Westbrook | 00;35;39;13 | My background for the last 15 years has been higher education and a lot of the ways that answers your questions are looking at higher education. But I would say, even though professionally, that's where I am in, you know, deep in the inner chambers of my heart, I'm I'm still I'm still a missionary. And so even the way I approach higher education is still from this missionary mindset.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;36;14;01 | And I think there's so much potential us to be thinking about how to how to provide an infrastructure of training and encouragement, support throughout the throughout the Kingdom of God. And there's so many opportunities now, and God's not going to like the Holy Spirit doesn't need to wait for us to do anything because God, God is powerful enough to overcome our weaknesses.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;36;40;05 | But but he has provided so much, so many tools right now that we can use for evangelism, for church planting, for supporting ministers and pastors worldwide, that that we've got to be thinking about how to use those tools for the glory of God. If we're not doing that, then we're really missing out on an opportunity. Like I said, God's God's God's will will be done.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;37;10;06 | But it's such a blessing for us and we can plug into that will and partner with him alongside on the journey.
Laurie | 00;37;18;27 | I think those are the main things I was going to ask you. I will encourage our listeners to go and look at the article Dr. Westbrook wrote about online learning and how it's used in equipping leaders. You made a lot of good practical suggestions there that are really helpful too, and thank you for your time in just sharing your heart and your expertize with us today.
Dr. Westbrook | 00;37;42;11 | My pleasure. Thank you.
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;37;44;10 | Maybe today's episode has inspired you to look into taking a class online. We've got links to Harding University and their distance learning program in our show notes, along with links to our own Entrust online learning opportunities. Next time our guest will be Entrust’s very own ministry trainers describing how God has let us at entrust to make good use of online learning.
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;38;11;29 | And then in late January, we were excited to tell you that our special guest will be Anne Graham Lotz. She had a robust conversation with Laurie Lind about prayer. You'll be challenged and motivated as you listen to their dialogue. That episode goes live January 20th. Mark your calendar.
Speaker Name | Start Time | Text
Joycelyn | 00;00;01;15 | In our English vocabulary. When we think of helper, it tends to be diminished. It just tends to be somebody who is not maybe as trained or not equal to somebody, the person who they are helping.
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;00;17;20 | Welcome back to Entrust Equipping Leaders. Today we conclude our four part series about the hows and whys of equipping women in ministry. Go back to hear parts one and two with Dr. Joye Baker of Dallas Seminary. In part three of this series, we introduced Joycelyn Seybold, who directs Entrust's women's ministry equipping branch. Today she and your host Laurie Lind, get into the meaning of a couple Hebrew words and talk about God's plan for men and women in the local church.
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;00;47;17 | Plus, you'll hear Laurie violate Entrust's foundational thinking: that of asking open ended questions.
Laurie | 00;00;56;22 | Yes, that's absolutely correct. In this episode, I ask a couple of questions in exactly the wrong way. Pay attention for that. I'm Laurie and we are referring back to an article that Joycelyn Seybold wrote for our blog called "Why Train Women? God Calls Men and Women to Serve Together." You can find it at our website, Entrust4. Go to the blog. I will put a link to that in the show notes.
Laurie | 00;01;24;17 | Now we start off with that conversation about some Hebrew words which I couldn't even pronounce. So we'll let Joycelyn get us into it. Okay. So maybe you can tell us these two words in Hebrew and how do they inform this whole discussion about training and equipping women?
Joycelyn | 00;01;42;08 | the first word is "adam." I don't think it means man, but man and in terms of humankind and human beings. And so you think of that, that's both male and female, because that's in the verse that God is talking about in Genesis one, 2627. And he says, Let us make man and meaning mankind or humankind in our image according to our likeness, and let them rule over the earth.
Joycelyn | 00;02;11;08 | And then later, he says he created them male and female. And so in that sense, there are verses in the Bible when God is talking about man, but he's talking about humankind, human beings, which includes both male and female. And then there are other times he would use another word that would indicate that it would just be a male person verses or men, verses women.
Joycelyn | 00;02;42;22 | And so just in terms of doing that, you get to understand it. It changes the way you look at the verses. If you understand that that's talking about people, not just male gender people.
Laurie | 00;02;59;22 | And then this other word, what is the second word?
Joycelyn | 00;03;02;27 | "Ezer" means helper. And so I think that this is more like in in our English vocabulary. When we think of helper, it tends to be diminished, just tends to be somebody who is not maybe as trained or not equal to somebody, the person who they are helping in in some cases, that's kind of the English vocabulary helps you understand it in that way, that word more often when it's used refers to God.
Joycelyn | 00;03;41;02 | And so God is in no way less than anyone else. I mean, he obviously God is God in. And so when you look at that word, when it does refer to this woman in this verse, either then it's she's equal to Adam in the sense of she's not somebody who is less than. But she's to come alongside of him.
Joycelyn | 00;04;08;13 | So they are to work together. He says in the Lord, God said, It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make him a helper. And that's the word as there there is for that word helper. And at other times in the Bible, he says, I will lift up my eyes to the hills. Where does my "ezer" come from?
Joycelyn | 00;04;26;24 | Where does my help come from? My "ezer" comes from the Lord and, you know, trust in the Lord. He is there. "Ezer" and Shield, is there help in your field? That's in Psalm 159. So you can see that it puts a different nuance on the word. When you look at the different places that the Bible uses it and how it uses that word.
Laurie | 00;04;52;13 | Well, are there other references in the Bible that come to mind to you as you think about like, why train women?
Joycelyn | 00;05;00;13 | Yes, we already talked about Titus two. And then, of course, the Great Commission and but you think about Jesus and teaching the disciples. And there were women who sat under his teaching there. You think of Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus. And, you know, he commended her for that and committed her for her heart of worship. You think of Priscilla and Aquiline X and how they serve together, teaching.
Joycelyn | 00;05;32;11 | And then you think of Mary and Elizabeth in terms of the situation of how they really mentor each other and that the Holy Spirit set Mary to Elizabeth you right after she conceived Jesus and how they spent that time together and how they really ministered to each other during that time.
Laurie | 00;05;54;21 | You know, that's true. That's another one I hadn't thought of, but, you know, only women can mentor one another through pregnancy. Unexpected pregnancy, unlikely pregnancy, and just all of what they were experiencing as much as their husbands loved them, that would just be certain areas where the men wouldn't really be able to enter into the thinking or the feeling maybe.
Joycelyn | 00;06;20;05 | Yes. Yes.
Laurie | 00;06;21;23 | What's your view about women and men serving side by side in the church, or how do you see scripture guiding us on this?
Joycelyn | 00;06;31;17 | Well, we've already talked about how God created Eve as a helper to Adam. And so right there you have the beautiful picture from the garden of how man and woman are to serve together. And you think of Priscilla and Aquila again. That's another one where she came alongside. Are they they together were teaching Apollos because his theological understanding was with off.
Joycelyn | 00;07;03;25 | We don't know specifically what that was but there are many more. I mean, Paul, again, you think of him commending different women when he talks about when he has greetings there, when he's mentioning people in the church. And so, you know, when they first went into to Macedonia and the first people he met were really down by the river and they were women.
Joycelyn | 00;07;30;00 | And in that's how the church started. There was by them then entering in and in helping. Lydia was always a big part of hosting her hospitality, of starting that church there. So again, there's so many different picture of men and women coming together with the focus on the gospel and sharing the gospel with others. And then interacting in this community of believers to serve God.
Joycelyn | 00;07;59;11 | And when you think of Ephesians five and you know it, you have Christ, the head of the church. And then in that aspect that's talking about marriage and how the men and the women in the marriage is to be a reflection of how Christ is to the church. And so there again, you have both male and female being a huge representative of Christ within that marriage relationship to others, both men and women together in community, giving a full reflection of of Christ in us.
Laurie | 00;08;37;27 | I want to back up a little bit to Entrust what does Entrust have to offer to women in just that? The whole way we approach our women's ministry?
Joycelyn | 00;08;48;07 | Well, the way we approach the women's ministry is really through a very relational approach and a way of thinking about intentional shepherding and discipline. And so the way we've done that over time is to have some courses that actually right now we have the four courses that we focus on. There are other things outside of those courses, of course, that we need to learn, but the four core courses and that help develop some basic ministry skills, but also skills that you would use for life, you know, in terms of asking open questions and interacting in a small group and then being able to to lead a small group, how you do that?
Joycelyn | 00;09;33;08 | What does it look like? How did Jesus teach? What can we learn from Jesus to then bring in to how we teach others and lead others and facilitate through that relational type learning and the aspect of thinking of the Trinity. God is three in one. They're all equal with men and women are equal. And as we're working with women in relationships that we all bring to the table our life experiences, we all bring together our gift gifting, and we all have the Holy Spirit in us.
Joycelyn | 00;10;04;23 | And so in community we can learn from one another. And so that's a big aspect of helping women learn their value in, in Christ. And really looking at their identity in Christ is a second, second course that we go through with developing a discerning heart, which is really a peer counseling course. And it really helps us look back at what are the lives that we might have believed about who we are and or lives that we believed about God and have a grade of thinking through our identity first and then how we experience life off the grid that we think through it.
Joycelyn | 00;10;43;22 | And how does that how does that really line up with Scripture and align with Scripture so that we're thinking in a right godly way and then developing it as a developing discovery Bible. Thank you. Discovery Bible study really helps teach the skills of inductive Bible study methods, observation, interpretation and application. So really looking at the Bible, how do you study it in context?
Joycelyn | 00;11;15;02 | And then further continuing on each one of those modules, they build on each other because you're continuing to use skills you learned in the first module and then in the second module to then bring those into the third module, meaning that the participants are facilitating discussions throughout and so they get more and more experience leading Bible study discussions or leading a discussion in the care of your God study.
Joycelyn | 00;11;42;28 | So they build those ministry skills and also in community they're getting feedback from peers, you know what? You know what they're doing. Well, what might you need to change to do things and communicate in a in a better way and there are so many places in life that we learn things, but we don't get evaluation. And evaluation helps us grow personally, not only in skill, but in character.
Joycelyn | 00;12;11;07 | And that's the iron sharpens iron. And then the last one is really women equipping women to serve. And that's really helping women to look at the mentoring, what's involved in mentoring, helping women learn to come alongside others, and identifying your spiritual gifts and looking at just evangelism, discipleship, and then temperaments. How do we work with people that are different than us, you know, and and how do we work through conflict and especially with people who are different than us and team building.
Joycelyn | 00;12;46;23 | So those are all really big skills that are addressed there.
Laurie | 00;12;51;14 | And we will you've mentioned all four of those core modules from equipping women, and we will have a link to where to find more about all of those courses in the show notes for this podcast. And women can take these courses just about anywhere, right? I believe they've been translated into multiple languages and being offered in various parts of the world.
Joycelyn | 00;13;15;20 | Yes, there's international hub training and there's training on national and specific languages.
Laurie | 00;13;22;06 | See what I'm doing? I'm asking you questions that we learn not to ask in facilitating relational learning. I'm asking you. Yes, no questions. And then all you can say is yes or no, and then we're done. So that's not a good way to ask such a question. I recognize my my feeling there. Take you into a corner. So I was going to ask you, maybe you somewhat answered, but what would you say is the vision and the mission of Entrust equipping women?
Joycelyn | 00;13;48;28 | Their vision and entrust equipping women is to equip women in the local and the global church to go to develop and mobilize others for God's kingdom work. And then looking at that mission wise, why do we want that to be within the local setting? You want that to be reproducible and locally owned in a way that the women can continue to multiply that training in a culturally appropriate way.
Laurie | 00;14;22;16 | If there's a woman or a man listening to our podcast today, and they're kind of intrigued by this training, how could they get more information about these modules or even maybe take a module.
Joycelyn | 00;14;36;25 | Elders information in our website, which would be WW W dot interest for and then it would be slash equipping women. And so you can see more specific information about women there and then interest forward and for men and women's training.
Laurie | 00;15;00;15 | So someone could just say like one time I was just visiting with a local pastor here where I live in Fargo, North Dakota. And I was telling him about this great equipping women. He's like, Well, can you come in and train all the women in my church? And and that is a very logical question to ask. How would I answer that question to that guy?
Joycelyn | 00;15;23;09 | You would answer that question or to that guy by saying that we don't have the resources to equip every single local church globally. However, we do have these training camps where you can send two or three people to be trained who can then take the training back to the local church. And that's really what we recommend is that you send at least two sending in twos like Jesus did.
Joycelyn | 00;15;58;00 | If you have three. Great. And then taking the training and look at going back and looking contextually, how am I going to apply this in my local church?
Laurie | 00;16;08;21 | There you go. That makes a lot of sense. Right. And because once again, then those people become the equipment to some extent as they pass, along with they have learned others in their own local church work contact, ministry, context, whatever it might be.
Joycelyn | 00;16;25;00 | And then we can serve as a resource. In fact, we do. Our facilitators come alongside of our participants as they're trained. If they have questions, they want to brainstorm things, they can contact their facilitators and brainstorm. How am I doing? What might I? What questions do I need to ask to see what the women in my local church need?
Joycelyn | 00;16;46;16 | Or if it's men and women, what for? If you're looking at equipment interest as a whole, those would be, you know, the men would be looking at one thing and the women would be looking at this other aspect as equipping women. What what do these women need and how can I do that contextually? I think one thing is sometimes people look at for courses, are we just teaching a curriculum and we use a curriculum?
Joycelyn | 00;17;17;09 | But it's really the way that we come along and facilitate the training. That is what is so key. We are teaching it in a way that we're using facilitation and good questions so that we learn from each other in that group setting. And then there are skills that we are learning in those courses that you can take back and not necessarily take the curriculum and go back and do a facility guided relational learning class, but go back and facilitate a Bible study.
Joycelyn | 00;17;54;06 | And yes, you could go back and you could take that course and you could take it back to the local church. However you do, you can use those skills to help develop Bible study skills and other women at your church. You can use those skills to ask really good questions at home with your kids, especially your teenagers and people who have teenagers and like, Wow, our discussions really changed when I started opening, asking open questions or or even, oh, my relationship with my husband really changed when I started applying some of these things that I'm learning.
Joycelyn | 00;18;29;25 | And so it's really relational skills that you can take back and apply in so many different places in your life. Is it in those spheres of influence that you each person has a different sphere of influence, whether it's in their local church, their family or their community? Yeah, taking the head knowledge that they're learning and learning how to take that to heart.
Joycelyn | 00;18;57;19 | And that's where that transformation happens. And then how do you how do you practically use those skills? And so many women come in with a fear of, you know, how am I going to do it right? You know, they want to do things right. And so that's what's so key about this is having women come alongside and say, yeah, you great, go for it, and then seeing that transformation spiritually.
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;19;27;24 | Thank you for joining us today on Entrust Equipping Leaders. Our guest today has been Joycelyn Seybold, Executive Director of Entrust Equipping Women. Find out more about our ministries in today's show. Notes and join us next time as we begin a series of conversations about doing ministry training online. Thank you for subscribing and writing a review of this podcast.
Todd (intro/outro) | 00;19;50;11 | We'll see you next time.
Helpful resources
Entrust: www.entrust4.org
Entrust Equipping Women: www.entrust4.org/equippingwomen
Joycelyn Seybold's blog article: https://www.entrust4.org/post/why-train-women-god-calls-men-and-women-to-serve-together
joycelyn Seybold, executive director of Entrust Equipping Women, describes her calling into ministry and discusses with Laurie some of the reasons to invest in training women in ministry.
From three to 21 to several hundred ... how Entrust intentionally equipped women in ministry across Russia. And how the women's pastors started using the women's homework in their own sermons. Hear that and more about women, God's love and ministry with Dr. Joye Baker of Dallas Seminary.
Why focus on equipping women in ministry? Dr. Joye Baker's answer: Why not? Plus, she adds, it's biblical.
Feeling burned out in leadership? Maybe Pastor Jeff Simpson of Lansdowne Alliance Church in Baltimore, Maryland, can encourage you. Listen through to the end of today's show for his advice for the weary and burned out and his list of practical things you can be doing to train new leaders to serve, even as you serve.
Would you feel comfortable allowing people in your church to take real ownership, to the point where they might fail? And how might doing so free you from the "worldiness of busyness," or the disease so common to pastors called "hurry sickness?" Pastor Jeff Simpson shares some intriguing thoughts for pastors, lay leaders and ministry leaders.
How do we determine who to train and what methods are best for each person and situation?
How can we provide excellent equipping of both the mind and the heart in our training contexts?