Science Behind Science: Recent Episodes
Ann Tushar and Dennis Grencewicz
We talk about science now more than ever, but what does it actually take to generate a drug, become a phenomenal scientist, or have a lab of your own? The Science Behind Science Podcast takes you backstage of research to show you how scientific discoveries really happen.
Hosted by two up-and-coming researchers at a world-class hospital, Ann Tushar and Dennis Grencewicz sit down with scientists and other professionals to humanize the individuals behind groundbreaking discoveries and to gain perspective on ethical dilemmas in research and best practices in scientific education and business.
Dr. Lisa Corwin, Dr. Sandhya Krishnan and I discuss the psychology of how students can internalize and maximally leverage perceived failures in academics/research to grow and become more resilient.Dr. Corwin is an Associate Professor of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology and Dr. Krishnan is a postdoctoral research fellow, both at the University of Colorado Boulder. These researchers investigate students’ experiences of failure in course-based undergraduate research experiences. In this episode, we talk about their research in STEM education, the experience of failure in STEM students, and the exciting opportunities FLAMEnet has to offer.
Lisa, Sandhya and I discuss what falls under the definition of an academic failure and how students positively or negatively change based on a perceived failure. The purpose of discussing failure leans into a major problem facing STEM students, especially students interested in research: great science and learning doesn’t happen without mistakes, but undergraduate and graduate education often prioritizes perfection over learning.
Dr. Corwin is the Principle Investigator for the Research on Ecology and Evolution Education for Action and Change Lab. https://www.colorado.edu/ebio/lisa-corwin
REACH lab website: https://www.thereachlab.org/people
FAIL is Not a Four Letter Word: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6757216/#:~:text=PMID%3A%2030821602-,FAIL%20Is%20Not%20a%20Four%2DLetter%20Word%3A%20A%20Theoretical%20Framework,Failure%20in%20STEM%20Learning%20Environments
The SBS Podcast is back! In this intro episode, Dennis reintroduces the goals and direction of the podcast and shares a few highlights of episodes that are soon to be released! Guests included in this intro include:
Drs. Lisa Corwin, Assistant Professor, and Sandhya Krishnan, Post-Doctoral Scholar, at the University of Colorado and administrators at FLAMEnet
Dr. Raphael Pollock, the Director of the Ohio State University Comprehensive Cancer Center
Dr. Itai Yanai, the Director of the Institution for Computational Biology at NYU Grossman School of Medicine and Cohost of the Night Science Podcast
Dr. Jason Ryan, Founder of Boards and Beyond and Associate Professor of Medicine and Hear Failure Center Co-Director at the University of Connecticut
For more SBS Podcast content, check out our Substack (sciencebehindscience.substack.com) and X/Twitter (@scibehindscipod).
Thank you, as always, and we hope you enjoy the return of the Science Behind Science Podcast!
Dennis and Ann recap Season 2 of the Science Behind Science podcast by sharing personal highlights and illuminating a few common threads they identified in the conversations recorded thus far. Finally, Dennis shares some of his future plans for season 3 and provides information for how you can connect with the podcast!
Science Behind Science Substack
Twitter: @SciBehindSciPod
Email: sciencebehindsciencepodcast@gmail.com
Dennis tells us about his experience writing his first real scientific paper, which was published in Human Molecular Genetics in 2021. Our goal in this conversation was to establish what goes into making a peer-reviewed scientific article, including everything from crafting ideas and hypotheses to how to submit a full manuscript to a journal for review. Dennis shares his highlights and advice from the publishing process, as well as the lessons he learned regarding writing techniques, collaboration tips, and the importance of setting internal goals and deadlines. We also discuss the logistics of how to format a manuscript for scientific publication in a medical research journal, as well as how the peer review process occurs at academic journals including general timelines for submission and publication.
Dennis is a current second year medical student at The Ohio State University College of Medicine and earned his Bachelor’s of Science in Biology with Honors from Haverford College in 2020. After college, Dennis worked in Dr. Charis Eng’s lab at the Cleveland Clinic Lerner Research Institute, where he studied the regulation of the tumor suppressor gene PTEN as well as the impact of microbes on cancer therapeutics. He continues to study the tumor microbiome at The Ohio State University Wexner Medical Center’s James Cancer Hospital in Dr. Daniel Spakowicz’s lab, specifically focusing on the role of gut and intratumoral microbes on radiation therapy response for several internal and external fellowships.
Some Useful Links:
Scitable Article from Science on Writing Manuscripts
Nature Publishing Options Website - Costs of Nature Open Access Publication
“Open access: The true cost of science publishing” by Richard Van Noorden
Dr. Michael Para tells us about his experiences working on the front lines of the HIV/AIDS pandemic when it first hit the USA. Dr. Para is a physician specializing in Infectious Diseases; a Professor Emeritus in Infectious Diseases, Molecular Virology, Immunology and Medical Genetics; and Co-Principal Investigator of the Infectious Disease Clinical Trials Unit at Wexner Medical Center in Columbus, Ohio. From him we learn about the initial set of cases, how the disease developed, how it affected patient care, and how treatment plans for this disease evolved into what they are today. Dr. Para gives a heartbreaking description of what the social implications were for those diagnosed with HIV, and his instrumental role as a doctor in providing hope when there was no cure is explored. We also learn about HIPAA and how that grew out of the HIV/AIDS pandemic.
Dr. Justin Lathia is the Director of Faculty Development and the Vice Chair of Cardiovascular and Metabolic Sciences at Cleveland Clinic’s Lerner Research Institute. He also holds a co-captain role on the Cleveland Clinic Lerner Research Institute’s Velosano Team. Dr. Lathia has been riding in Velosano since its inception 10 years ago, and he is a wonderful advocate for the importance of fundraising in cancer research. We wanted to sit down and talk with him to discuss why fundraising is so important. Particularly, Dr. Lathia notes that early career researchers and extremely innovative ideas are often blocked from funding from canonical funding sources due to reasonable risk-mitigation strategies from large institutions. Therefore, organizations like Velosano, he argues, allows for crazy ideas to launch and young scientists to earn a chance to succeed.
Links from our Conversation
Velosano Homepage
Velosano Impact Site (How the Funding has Facilitated Discoveries at CCF)
CCF LRI Velosano Team Fundraising Site
Dr. Justin Lathia’s Velosano Fundraising Site
Dennis Grencewicz’s Velosano Fundraising Site
American Cancer Society List of Fundraisers
Pelotonia Home Page
Dennis Grencewicz’s Pelotonia Fundraising Site
Matthew Marquardt, a third-year medical student at The Ohio State University College of Medicine and pro-triathlete in Ironman and Professional Triathletes Organization competitions, spills his secrets for successfully managing his time in arguably one of the busiest seasons of his life. We hear stories from Matt about how he first got into sports, what swimming at Princeton was like for him, and how he biked across the US in less than a month. He delves into how he prepares for his Ironman competitions, why he loves competing, and how his rigorous training schedule has benefitted his life and mentality. On the other side of things, we hear from him about his passion for medicine, how he studies for med school, and maintains relationships that matter to him. He covers deep-work philosophy, prioritization, the benefits of approaching life with a scientific mindset, and how to live with intention. Finally, he humbly shares with us the challenges of this lifestyle while encouraging us to pursue the things that are meaningful to us and valuable.
Some helpful links:
Ironman
Professional Triathletes Organization
Matthew Marquardt Trek Article
Matthew’s Instagram
Matthew’s Twitter
Christian Essman is the Senior Director of Admissions and Financial Aid at Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine and host of the amazing “All Access: Med School Admissions” podcast. He holds an in-depth discussion with us about the admissions process for entry into allopathic medical school in the US and the role of an admissions committee member. We pour over the different components of the application, detailing what prospective applicants can start doing now to build a strong application and how current applicants can leverage who they are and their experiences to stand out as they apply and interview. Christian speaks to the importance of extracurriculars in the application, the transferability of skills gained from research experiences to the medical field, and how one can prepare for the interview. He shares the responsibilities and unique privileges admissions committee members have and addresses some misconceptions about the committees and the admissions process. Throughout the conversation, we also hear from Dennis about his experience applying to med school and matriculating to The Ohio State University College of Medicine. Both he and Christian also share their number one pieces of advice for current applicants.
Helpful links:
All Access: Med School Admissions Podcast
Haverford College: Explore Health Professions
Dr. Sylvain Ferrandon, a research scientist and lab manager at the Ohio State University’s Wexner Medical Center, shares his immigration story as a scientist from France coming to the US for a postdoctoral fellowship. We learn from Sylvain about the structure of the French education system, the factors that led him to look for research opportunities outside of France, and the qualities that make the US such a desirable place for scientists to work. He describes how he looked for and landed a job in the US and he paints a vivid picture of his first week upon arrival in Cleveland, Ohio. Through his story, we are introduced to some of the very real challenges international researchers in the US face, including meeting visa/work authorization renewal deadlines, overcoming language barriers, and building a credit score. Sylvain also explains how he found and created community. We discuss the benefits of diversified backgrounds in science, and the trends we predict for international researchers in the US. Interwoven in this conversation are Sylvain’s unwavering love of learning, his tangible excitement to explore the world, and his deep admiration and respect for the sacrifices made by international scientists to do research in the US.
Some helpful links:
Cleveland French Community
Columbus French Community
Dr. George Fox, Emeritus Professor and Research Professor at the University of Houston, relates the remarkable story of how he and his late mentor, Dr. Carl Woese, discovered the biological kingdom Archaea. He explains how they realized they had identified a new kingdom, how this discovery was initially received by the scientific community, and how their work has shaped medicine and research to this day. We get an excellent overview of the science of 16S rRNA sequencing, background on Dr. Fox’s journey to become a scientist, and career advice for those who are uncertain about what to pursue. As he relayed his story, we were struck by Dr. Fox’s accomplishments, but even more so by his humility. We hope his legacy inspires you and the next generation of researchers for years to come.
Some useful links:
Phylogenetic structure of the prokaryotic domain: The primary kingdoms
Scientists Discover a Form of Life That Predates Higher Organisms
Dr. Electra Paskett has a conversation with us on the field of epidemiology broadly, with a special focus on behavioral cancer epidemiology. She is the Director of the Division of Cancer Prevention and Control in the College of Medicine, an epidemiology professor in the College of Public Health, the Associate Director for Population Sciences and Program Leader of the Cancer Control Program in the Comprehensive Cancer Center of the Ohio State University, and the Director of the Center for Cancer Health Equity at the James Cancer Hospital. We discuss the subdisciplines of this field, how research is conducted, the impact of the social determinants of health on medical care, and the value of epidemiological research holistically. Dr. Paskett enumerates the factors that strongly associate with disparities and addresses misconceptions and challenges she faces in her work, while providing examples of some of her initiatives that are currently underway. Throughout the conversation, Dr. Paskett shares her passion for understanding why certain people get cancer and for designing interventions to prevent or reduce the risk of cancer.
Dr. Donna Driscoll, Vice Chair of the Lerner Research Institute at Cleveland Clinic, breaks down her job title, giving us the big picture of what it’s like to work in an administrative position at a large academic research center. She shares about her pathway in science and research administration, as well as the different areas where she provides oversight and what that looks like on a day-to-day basis. Donna speaks to problems in academia, such as difficulties with faculty retention, lack of diversity in scientific leadership, and the need to shift toward a team science mindset, while explaining how her own institution is working to address these challenges. Dr. Driscoll also shares the lessons she has learned while in administration and the characteristics shared among successful administrators.
Links:
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/staff/949-donna-driscoll
https://www.lerner.ccf.org/education/RISE/
Feel free to reach us on:
Substack: sciencebehindscience.substack.com
Twitter: @scibehindscipod
Email: sciencebehindsciencepodcast@gmail.com
Eastern and Midwestern Division Directors for the Cooperative Human Tissue Network (CHTN) Diane McGarvey and Randy Mandt join us on the podcast to discuss the ins and outs of human tissue collection, storage, and dissemination for research purposes. We cover the process of biobanking generally, touching on best practices and patient protections. Dee and Randy share the history, values and infrastructure of CHTN specifically, as well as how they conduct consultations with researchers and perform prospective tissue collection to best suit individual research projects. We wrap up the conversation with some practical advice for those looking to start their own biobank and an encouragement to scientists to make use of biobanks like CHTN for their research!
CHTN Website
ISBER Best Practices
NIH NCI Biospecimen Research Database SOPs
The effects of frozen tissue storage conditions on the integrity of RNA and protein
Dr. Jen Heemstra, the Department Chair of Chemistry at Washington University in St. Louis, sits down with us to chat about the personal and interpersonal challenges common to science. She shares how to identify red flags in a lab setting if you’re interviewing or rotating and gives ideas for questions we should be asking ourselves and posing in interviews if we are searching for a thesis advisor. She outlines some of the most common causes of burnout and provides encouraging advice on how to combat it. We learn from her how to differentiate between burnout, simply being in a “rut”, or altogether hating your job. She unpacks what disrespect and undervaluation can look like in the workplace and how to address it. We even delve into how to gracefully leave a lab when you feel it isn’t a good fit for you. Despite the weight of these topics, Dr. Heemstra’s optimism and passion for mentorship and science shine through, leaving us with fresh motivation to move forward and tackle challenges.
Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High
Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us
The Birkman Method
How to Choose a Good Scientific Problem
Welcome back to the SBS Podcast! Ann and Dennis introduce our second season, including some highlights from season one and snippets from conversations with guests who will be joining in this season. Folks mentioned in this episode include: Dr. Jennifer Heemstra, Chair of Chemistry at Washington University in St. Louis, Christian Essman, Senior Director of Admissions and Financial Aid at Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine, Dr. George Fox, Professor Emeritus in the Department of Biology and Biochemistry at the University of Houston, and Dr. Donna Driscoll, the Vice Chair of the Lerner Research Institute at the Cleveland Clinic. Many more conversations are to come, as well!
For more SBS Podcast content, check out our Substack (sciencebehindscience.substack.com) and Twitter (@SciBehindSciPod), and feel free to email us at: sciencebehindsciencepodcast@gmail.com.
Thank you, as always, and we hope you enjoy the return of the Science Behind Science Podcast!
Dennis and Ann recap Season 1 of the Science Behind Science podcast by sharing personal highlights and illuminating a few common threads they identified in the conversations recorded thus far. We also share our future plans for season 2 and provide information for how you can connect with us!
Science Behind Science Website
Twitter: @SciBehindSciPod
Email: sciencebehindsciencepodcast@gmail.com
Dr. Takae Brewer, a cancer genomics fellow at Cleveland Clinic and a PhD student in Case Western Reserve University’s Physician Researchers Innovating in Science and Medicine (PRISM) program, tells us about her experiences getting a PhD after medical school. Takae outlines the typical trajectory for students pursuing an MD/PhD in the US and contrasts it with her own, more nontraditional path of pursuing a PhD after fellowship. She gives details about PRISM: how it compares to a typical PhD program and what it looks like for her as a fellow. Takae also introspects on why a PhD after medical school was the better choice for her and the value it brings to her practice. As she tells her story and shares her experiences, Takae encourages us to pursue what we dream of doing, whatever the path may look like.
Some helpful links:
PRISM Program
Dr. Justin Lathia is the Director of Faculty Development and the Vice Chair of Cardiovascular and Metabolic Sciences at Cleveland Clinic’s Lerner Research Institute. Dr. Lathia is a wonderful communicator in the scientific community and is a fantastic advocate and mentor for scientists looking to take the next step in academia. We wanted to interview Dr. Lathia about how he builds relationships in research, specifically including how he has cultivated a positive culture in his lab, the advice he gives to young faculty, and how he establishes and maintains professional friendships and ongoing collaborations. In this conversation, expect to also hear about how Dr. Lathia goes about “networking” and how he determined where would be a good fit for him and his research goals.
In this episode, Ann interviews Dennis about his scientific background. Dennis shares how his love for science began in high school, why he ended up at Haverford College for undergrad, and describes the mentorship he received there. He talks in-depth about his research experiences at the Cleveland Clinic as a student researcher and a technician, and what motivates him to pursue medicine. He gives advice to students looking to apply to medical school or who are looking for a lab to work in and inspires us with stories of how he pushed past discouragement and challenges to pursue what he is passionate about about. He also shares his future plans and goals as a rising physician. We hope you enjoy!
In this episode, Dennis interviews Ann about her background in science thus far. Ann tells her story as to how she became interested in research, starting back from enjoyment and success in Chemistry classes during high school and through a few early role models in her life. She goes on to discuss her undergrad scientific training, her academic passions from college, an impactful summer internship she had, and how she landed in her current position as a research technician at the Cleveland Clinic Lerner Research Institute. Ann talks about what she does as a tech, what her goals are, and what she loves most about training as a young scientist.
As a podcast, we plan to have conversations with each other as well as interviews with professionals, and this is our first conversation of this type. We hope you enjoy!
Dr. Cassandra Talerico is a Biomedical Writer for the Department of Cancer Biology at Cleveland Clinic’s Lerner Research Institute. Dr. Talerico completed her undergraduate training in Psychobiology and Biology at Hiram College, where she was a Phi Beta Kappa member. She then earned an M.A. in English from Case Western Reserve University and a PhD in Regulatory Biology with Specialization in Molecular Medicine from a joint Cleveland State University and Cleveland Clinic program. Dr. Talerico shares her story as to how she became a professional writer, including her training, how she realized she enjoyed writing more than experimentation, and what her current day to day is like. She particularly gets in depth on the role of a science writer within the context of a large academic institution, but she also speaks to freelance opportunities and what it looks like to be a writer in industry, as well. We love this conversation because Dr. Talerico paints a very nice picture of how an impactful career can develop for someone who wants to be involved in research, but maybe doesn’t enjoy the practice of science as much as the bigger picture of delivering the message of research findings.
Some Helpful Links:
American Medical Writers Association
AMWA Essential Skills Workbook (we’re working on figuring out if there are discounts for this!)
List of Master’s in Science Communication Programs
Council of Science Editors
Dr. Lou Charkoudian, a Professor of Chemistry at Haverford College and return guest to the podcast, discusses how she manages to avoid job creep and keep a work-life balance and integration. Beyond being a wonderful scientist and mentor, Lou continuously works to make sure she is a supportive and present parent and spouse. In this episode, we discuss how Lou manages to control her incredibly busy schedule, how to effectively allocate time to tasks, and how to actively reassess her balance in order to optimize both her work efficiency and her family time. Lou offers many great pieces of advice about being a proficient academic and family member that are applicable far beyond her own career pathway. In the end, Lou reflects on the role of sacrifice and hard work in a career and how she derives value from her profession while still taking active responsibility in other aspects of her life.
Some helpful links:
FLAMEnet
Dr. Jamie Becker, an Assistant Professor of Biology at Alvernia University and return guest to the podcast, discusses how he got started on the path of Marine Ecology and what the real life of a Marine Ecologist is like. Jamie describes the qualifications and training necessary to pursue a career in Marine Ecology, and also shares several colorful anecdotes about fieldwork and the importance of getting out to sea to properly study marine life. After fleshing out what it really means to be a Marine Ecologist, we discuss the relevance of studying Marine Ecology and Biology to the world and link a lot of the skills that we are working to build as translational medical researchers to those Jamie has built throughout his career. Finally, we end by asking Jamie for recommendations on what those interested in launching a Marine Bio/Eco career should consider, including where to find opportunities to get into the field and where to look for graduate programs.
Some helpful links:
REU Sites Ocean Sciences Job Listings
Milana Leygerman, the Clinical Research Supervisor for Cleveland Clinic’s Genomic Medicine Institute, provides us with a broad overview of clinical research. With her experience at the bench and in various roles on clinical trials and projects, we felt Milana was a perfect fit for a discussion on clinical research as a whole and its relationship to basic science. In this conversation, we touch on the goals, regulatory procedures, ethical considerations, and types of clinical research. Milana also gives a framework for study design, lists the components of a research team, and explains the role of biorepositories. Woven into the discussion is her story of how she came to pursue a path in clinical research, the challenges of working in this field, and her passion for the advancement of medicine and the protection of human subjects.
Dr. Iris Nira Smith, a research associate in Dr. Charis Eng’s lab in Cleveland Clinic’s Lerner Research Institute, shares her journey toward independence in research. As a recent NIH K99/R00 recipient, Iris explains what a principal investigator is, what some of their responsibilities are, the qualifications for becoming one, and why she chose to pursue this career path. Through reflecting on her past and what keeps her going in the present, Iris places emphasis on the power of perseverance and varied life experiences while sharing numerous mindset shifts we can all make to help us reach our goals. Packed with wisdom and heartfelt anecdotes, we hope this conversation will encourage you to pursue what matters to you in the face of setbacks and challenges.
Some helpful links:
Toastmasters
Ten Simple Rules to Becoming a Principal Investigator
I've Seen the End of You: A Neurosurgeon's Look at Faith, Doubt, and the Things We Think We Know
Dr. Stetson Thacker, a Clinical Genomics Curator at GenomOncology and the Social Media Manager for the journal Human Molecular Genetics, returns to the podcast to discuss how scientists communicate outside of publications and conferences. Beyond his expertise in reading primary literature, Stetson has a fantastic understanding of how to actively engage in scientific communication, hence why we wanted to chat with him about this topic. In this conversation, we start off by talking about what he does for Go and as HMG’s Social Media Manager. We then move onto discussing several platforms in which researchers communicate, including Twitter, Substack, Preprint Servers like BioRxiv, and ResearchGate. Finally, we reflect on the Open Science Movement, as well as how we hope to see research communication adapt and improve in the next decade.
Some Useful Links:
Understanding and Jumping into Science Twitter
Dr. Lou Charkoudian, a Professor of Chemistry at Haverford College, shares her wisdom for teaching and mentoring students through a notoriously difficult course: organic chemistry. Lou explains the relevance and importance of organic chemistry to our lives and unpacks why the course is so challenging for both students and instructors. She shares with us the various structures she’s implemented to set her students up for success and help them feel supported throughout the learning process. Through her course design and approach to teaching, we learn that organic chemistry can be a fun, accessible, and conquerable subject if approached with a growth mindset. Prepare to be inspired, empowered, and to fall in love with organic chemistry, if you haven’t already.
Some helpful links:
Is Organic Chemistry Helpful for Basic Understanding of Disease and Medical Education?
STEM faculty who believe ability is fixed have larger racial achievement gaps and inspire less student motivation in their classes
Dr. Robert Fairman, a Professor of Biology at Haverford College, explains the value of in-depth lab education during undergrad and gives some insight into his mentorship philosophy. Rob was Dennis’ undergraduate research mentor and a number of the lessons Rob taught are worth sharing on a broader scale. In this conversation, Rob shares great tips about generating thoughtful undergrad research experiences while explaining a course at Haverford called Superlab. He also discusses the value of becoming close to students, standing as a fantastic example of someone who is a friend and advocate first, and a teacher, mentor, scientist, and administrator second.
Some useful links:
Rob’s 2017 Publication on Structuring a Biochemistry Superlab course: https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pbio.2003145
Dr. Stetson Thacker, a Clinical Genomics Curator at GenomOncology and a previous PhD candidate in Dr. Charis Eng’s Lab of the Genomic Medicine Institute of Cleveland Clinic Lerner Research Institute, shares his insight into navigating the seas of scientific literature. We both worked with Stetson and mutually continue to agree that we haven’t interacted with someone who had a better handle on the lit than Stetson. So of course, we hoped to pull back the curtain on his tips and tricks through this conversation. We talk about methods for staying current, organized, and collected, as well as how to deeply retain the key takeaways from papers. Highlights include plugs for curating your Google Scholar reading list, incorporating Zotero as a citation manager, and downloading the GoodReads App for finding fun books to read!
Some Useful Links:
Downloading Zotero: https://www.zotero.org/download/
Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/
An Supplemental Guide to Making the Most of Google Scholar: https://paperpile.com/g/google-scholar-guide/
Dr. Jamie Becker, an Assistant Professor of Biology at Alvernia University, discusses undergraduate course design for the sciences. He starts off by describing how he began teaching before getting into the general curricular and course structure for undergraduate science majors. We then spend some time talking about the details of course design that Jamie likes implementing, including how he has developed engaging and exciting courses even in his early teaching career. We move to the students’ perspective, challenges in teaching, teaching science to non-majors, and finally Jamie’s own motivations in teaching. Ann and Dennis love how Jamie really drives home the normalization of failure in science, specifically in the context of lab work, as well as how Jamie generally spends so much effort caring for the growth of his students.
Some useful links:
REU Details - https://beta.nsf.gov/funding/opportunities/research-experiences-undergraduates-reu
Tiny Earth Network - https://tinyearth.wisc.edu/