Abstraction: Recent Episodes

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Show Summary |

It's June 2023. You’re the Founder, CEO, or CFO of a company, and are under pressure to increase operating efficiency. How does carbon-related technology stack rank in priority against other items of expenditure?

I flipped the script and became interviewee for episode 10 of this carbon-focused series, sitting down with my colleague Abhi to talk about the progress made by Australia’s best carbon tech entrepreneurs and investors.

It’s a 30-minute birds-eye view of what I’ve uncovered through chats with Alex, Olympia, Charlie, Hannah, Katherine, Tegan, Mick, Anastasia, Mike, and James.

We discuss building an investment thesis on carbon, first-order problems, and the common traits of successful founders and companies.

Timestamps |

0:00 - Intro

1:00 - Abhi’s background and show overview

3:00 - How we think about building conviction in an area of technology

5:30 - Mapping the relationship between carbon and commercial problems

7:30 - Guests and the problems they solve

9:00 - Do businesses put their money where their mouth is with climate?

12:00 - Who feels the pressure of net zero targets?

14:30 - Where do the biggest opportunities lie in carbon markets?

17:00 - Challenged preconceptions

22:00 - Key traits of successful companies and founders

29:30 - Getting in touch with Hunter, Abhi and Rampersand

Series Guests |

Alex - https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-logan-cecil/

Olympia - https://www.linkedin.com/in/olympiayarger/

Charlie - https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlie-macdonald/

Hannah - https://www.linkedin.com/in/hannah-mourney/

Katherine - https://www.linkedin.com/in/katherinemcconnell1/

Tegan - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tegan-nock-a4079499/

Mick - https://www.linkedin.com/in/mliubinskas/

Anastasia - https://www.linkedin.com/in/anastasia-volkova1/

Mike - https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikezim/

James - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesallston/

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Show Summary |

Episode 9 of this carbon-focused series is with Orkestra Co-Founder, James Allston.

Solar and batteries often provide a great financial return when used in a commercial setting, yet, James has little faith that with current software, humans can deploy clean energy at the level required to prevent our planet from warming a further 1.5 degrees.

That’s why three energy experts, James, Chris, and Michael, created Orkestra. Orkestra makes understanding the financial return on solar and battery projects incredibly easy, before helping businesses sell, install, track and optimise these projects into the future.

Tune in to hear about the Orkestra solution and James’ hot takes on what the immediate future looks like for Australian and global businesses that rely on public energy markets.

Timestamps |

2:00 - Orkestra’s beginnings

7:00 - why Orkestra was born from people saying James’ consulting service was too expensive

9:00 - The tradeoff between educating customers and building a true product-led software business

12:00 - How does Orkestra fit into carbon markets and what impact does it actually have

14:30 - Orkestra’s customers and who benefits

17:30 - The value of in-front-of-the-meter, neighbourhood and behind-the-meter batteries

25:00 - Where in Australia is the best place to install solar at the home

28:00 - Impact of Russia / Ukraine on electricity prices here in Aus and why AEMO shut our energy markets down

30:00 - why pricing volatility and the movement to renewables actually drives a greater commercial pressure to adopt decentralised energy technology

38:00 - Orkestra’s focus on scope 1 and 2, and James’ thoughts on scope 3

40:00 - James’ perspective on what matters most to being a successful founder

Connect |

James’ Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesallston/

Orkestra website - https://www.orkestra.energy/

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Show Summary |

Main Sequence partner Mike Zimmerman has an unrivalled Aussie climate tech investment CV. Notably, he’s an investor in companies founded by two previous podcast guests Anastasia (Regrow) and Tegan (Loam).

He has been a founder and led three venture-backed companies in AU/US, and reflects candidly in this episode on the mistakes he made as a founder, applying this to today’s capital raising environment.

We cover why Main Sequence warms to and is uniquely positioned to fund deep tech, why it has made certain investments, their unique ‘venture science’ model for supporting startups, and where Mike sees greatest opportunity for Aussie carbon tech solutions.

Timestamps |

1:30 - Mike’s journey to partner at Main Sequence

7:00 - Battle scars and lessons learned from founding Building IQ and working in a grow at all costs startup

8:30 - How Main Sequence invests and its unique love of deep tech11:00 - Investing alongside government

12:00 - Working with the CSIRO

13:30 - Main Sequence’s unique practice of venture science

16:30 - Investing in the world leader for helping food companies source sustainable agriculture20:00 - Investing in Loam Bio

24:00 - Where Main Sequence is spending a lot of its time deep diving

29:30 - Why Mike thinks Australia is a special place to launch climate tech companies

Connect |

Mike’s email - mike@mseq.vc

Mike’s Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikezim/

Main Sequence website - https://www.mseq.vc/

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Show Summary |

Episode 7 of this carbon-focused series is with Anastasia Volkova, the founder of Regrow Ag.

Despite being the industry that manages and nurtures land, agriculture emits between 11 and 25% of global greenhouse gas emissions. Regrow uses a combination of remote sensing and ground truth data to help brands drive carbon insetting projects with upstream farmers and suppliers working on the land.

Anastasia’s remarkable story spans starting her business while completing a PhD, a very important acquisition that led to finding product-market fit, and more recently raising capital while her home country of Ukraine was invaded. Enjoy 7 years of insight packed into a 40-minute conversation on what businesses that rely on agriculture really need in order to mitigate climate risk in their supply chains and how it can be done in a scalable way.

Timestamps |

1:30 - Why businesses are the sustainable drivers of change and not-for-profits are limited in enacting enduring change

4:30 - The macro problem Regrow is addressing

5:00 - The problems of excess synthetic fertiliser on farms and why it exists
8:00 - Why you cannot manage without measurement

10:00 - Why you need a mix of ground truth, satellite and other tech to measure empower real-time decision making

14:30 - How brands using Regrow encourage adoption of the solution by farmers

18:30 - How Regrow helps customers understand and improve scope 3 emissions23:30 - Why aggregate measurement of scope 3 rather than perfect, contract-level traceability of emissions is actually better

28:00 - Regrow’s biggest challenge: finding product-market fit

30:00 - The trade off between short-term v long term gains as a climate tech startup

34:30 - Regrow’s early adopters and bullseye Ideal Customer Profile

36:30 - Capital raising for Regrow as Ukraine was invaded

41:30 - What Anastasia will be doing when she retires

Connect |

Anatasia’s Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/anastasia-volkova1/

Regrow’s website - https://www.regrow.ag/

Anastasia’s recent blog on scope 3 -

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/scope-3-spotlight-climate-action-anastasia-volkova-phd

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Show Summary |

Episode 6 of this carbon-focused series provides a bird's-eye view of the local climate tech ecosystem with the help of Climate Salad founder and local angel investor @Mick Liubinskas

We map the solutions to climate problems across the reduction and removal of emissions, adapting to our changing environment, and improving how we interact with nature.

Mick also explains why he believes that most Australian climate tech startups are fundamentally undervalued.

PS: Mick’s claim to superstardom is that he came up with the name ‘Startmate’. 😯

Timestamps |

2:30 - Mick’s background and going all in on Climate tech

4:30 - Climate Salad and climate tech angel investing

9:00 - The climate tech industry map and the four categories of impact

12:00 - Why corporates are investing directly in carbon reduction and removal solutions

15:00 - How corporates looking to understand and act on their scope 3 emissions

18:00 - Why climate problems can’t be solved with software alone

21:00 - What drives Mick’s assessment of investment opportunities

26:00 - What red flags to watch out for when it comes to climate tech investors

31:00 - Products helping corporates on the demand side of carbon markets

37 :00 - Mick’s new fund and helping climate tech companies expand internationally

39:30 - Getting involved with Climate Salad and connecting with Mick

Company Mentions |

Cecil - https://www.cecil.earth/

Emmi - https://www.emmi.io/

Enosi - https://enosi.energy/

Goterra - https://goterra.au/

Loambio - https://www.loambio.com/

Regrow - https://www.regrow.ag/

Ripe Robotics - https://www.riperobotics.com/

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Show Summary |

In episode 5 of this carbon-focused series, we hear from former farmer and Loam Bio founder Tegan Nock. Loam Bio is introducing a “gateway drug” that gets growers hooked on building stable soil carbon into their cropping systems.

Fresh off a A$105 million Series B raise, Tegan shares how a simple seed coating could deliver a significant revenue opportunity for farmers while helping solve the problem of excess atmospheric carbon around the world.

We chat about what motivates farmers, carbon insetting, and why Tegan thinks farmers need to be careful about who they deal with when it comes to carbon credits.

Timestamps |

01:30 - Tegan’s background and the origin story of Loam Bio

4:30 - Macro problem

5:30 - The product(s) and how they are used

8:30 - Commercial incentive to use Loam Bio for farmers

11:00 - What does “stable” carbon mean and why does it matter

13:30 - The administration and requirements to convert stable carbon sequestration into a carbon credit

17:30 - Raising A$105m, traction to date and immediate goals

20:00 - The time it will take to prove the power of the ‘perfect’ fungus

25:00 - The things people try to get farmers to do on their farms

29:30 - Biggest problem in carbon markets

31:00 - Carbon insetting and ensuring farmers are careful of entering carbon credit contracts with companies

35:00 - Biggest wins

36:30 - Life outside Loam Bio

Connect |

Tegan’s Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tegan-nock-a4079499/

Tegan’s Twitter -https://twitter.com/TeganNock

Loam Bio Website - https://www.loambio.com/

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Show Summary |

Episode 4 of this carbon-focused podcast series is with Brighte founder Katherine Mcconnell.

Katherine epitomises founder-market fit, but when she had a market shifting idea for helping households become more energy efficient 8 years ago, raising venture capital wasn’t so easy.

Having now helped electrify 120,000 homes (and counting), hear about the balance Katherine strikes between improving customer experience, efficiently growing a business, putting out fires in the finance industry and working with the government to mobilise the shift to clean energy.

Timestamps |

2:00 - The risk Katherine took on her career and the level of personal conviction she had

5:30 - The finance problem Brighte solves for households

7:30 – Accessing and serving customers efficiently

10:30 - How Katherine actually got this business of the ground and finding her first believers

14:30 - How the world has changed to make Brighte more attractive

20:00 - The extra challenge of being an advocate for change as a Climate tech founder

24:00 - The importance of understanding how to approach and work with government

25:30 - How Brighte has built its competitive advantage

27:30 - VC funding vs other sources

31:30 – Brighte’s most pressing challenges

34:30 - Why Katherine loves permaculture

Connect |

Katherine’s Linkedin -https://www.linkedin.com/in/katherinemcconnell1/

Katherine’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/KMcConnell_au

Brighte’s Website - https://brighte.com.au/

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Show Summary |

Charlie Macdonald believes farmers are the most underserved player in carbon markets and Hannah Mourney has observed a mismatch between marketing and impact when it comes to ‘sustainable’ consumer products and fashion.

In episode 3 of this carbon focused series, these investors share how they think about capital allocation to reach net zero, the drivers for supply and demand in carbon markets, and why the embedded impact businesses they invest in win in the long term.

Timestamps |

1:30 - Charlie and Hannah’s paths to joining Giant Leap

6:30 - What Giant Leap’s mandate of ‘impact embedded into the business model’ means

12:00 - The Speed and Scale plan and thinking about allocation of capital to reach net zero

14:00 - How Giant Leap focuses its attention

20 :00 - How Giant Leap views and defines carbon markets

26:30 - Assessing quality of carbon projects

28:00 - Why Giant Leap made a recent investment in Trace

32:00 - What the Giant Leap team think is overhyped from a carbon impact perspective

37:00 - Why Charlie has a soft spot for farmers and why insets beat offsets

39:00 - How Hannah and Charlie stay informed

Connect |

Hannah’s Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/hannah-mourney/

Charlie’s Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlie-macdonald/

Charlie’s Substack - https://charliemacdonald.substack.com/p/coming-soon

Giant Leap - https://www.giantleap.com.au/

Mentions |

Speed and Scale Plan - https://speedandscale.com/

Trace - https://www.our-trace.com/

Loambio - https://www.loambio.com/

Bloomberg Green - https://www.bloomberg.com/green

Climate Salad - https://www.climatesalad.com/

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Show Summary |

In episode 2 of this series on carbon, I chatted to industry rockstar Olympia Yarger, the founder of Goterra.

Food waste generates 3x more greenhouse gas emissions than the airline industry, and sending recyclable waste to landfill is expensive for big producers.

In this episode, hear about how the unlikely combo of shipping containers, robots, a pumpable slurry and soldier flies drive down GHG emissions while improving the operational efficiency of companies like Lendlease, Woolworths and Melbourne Airport.

Timestamps |

0:00 - What Goterra is and Olympia’s background

3:30 - The macro problem Goterra is helping to solve

5:30 - The waste Goterra processes and how

7:00 - What happens inside the shipping containers and why maggots eating waste is valuable

9:00 - The big breakthroughs that have got Goterra to where it is today

11:30 - Goterra’s customers

14:30 - How Goterra makes money

19:30 - How Goterra measures its own impact

22:30 - How Goterra thinks about growth and reaching new customers

24:30 - Olympia’s biggest challenges

29:00 - the importance of the relationship built with customers

33:30 - Alone time and switching off

36:30 - When Olympia’s job is done at Goterra

Connect |

Twitter - @olympiayarger

Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/olympiayarger/

Website - https://goterra.au/

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Show Summary |

How a carbon credit is originated and its actual impact has historically attracted scepticism.

The first guest of this podcast series on Carbon tech, Alex Logan, is building the supporting software tooling for carbon project developers working with nature to create and maintain reliable carbon credit supply.

Alex explains how this supply has to date been unreliable due to poor data governance and fragmented systems, and tells us why the demand for these finite credits is driving companies to invest in and move closer to the origination of carbon removal projects.

Listen to Abstraction on all the major platforms here: https://linktr.ee/hunterwatkin

Timestamps |

1:30 - What led Alex and Rory to take on such an intimidating problem

3:30 - What in Alex’s day to day led him to gaining conviction in this solution being a way to effect change at scale

7:00 - What a carbon credit is and how Cecil fits into the lifecycle of a carbon credit

10:00 - What goes into pricing a carbon offset or project and are project developers being incentivised in the right way?

14:00- The different stakeholders in carbon markets and Cecil’s focus on carbon project developers

18:00 - Why buyers of carbon credits want to originate projects

20:00 - The types of projects Cecil will and won’t support

24:00 - Magic moments and early wins for Cecil

26:30 - Why Vera has a 5 year backlog of projects needing verification and the data challenges that limit fast and efficient verification

31:30 - Why those involved with carbon projects are incentivised to be transparent

34:00 - the impact of inflation, impacted energy prices and the availability of capital on Cecil

38:00 - Alex’s message to people that are curious about working in climate

Connect |

Alex’s Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-logan-cecil/

Alex’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/alexlogan_

Cecil’s Website - https://www.cecil.earth/

Hunter’s socials - https://linktr.ee/hunterwatkin

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This season the topic is 'Carbon'.

The guests are A+, I'm pumped.

Join me in finding out why this is the 'decisive decade' for innovations in carbon removal, decarbonisation and the market for carbon project finance and credits. This will progressively impact the way we live and work, it's just a matter of how.

Subscribe on your platform of choice: linktr.ee/hunterwatkin

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Show Summary |

For the season finale of Abstraction, I had the pleasure of interviewing Magic Eden founder Zhuoxun Yin in his debut Australian pod appearance.

Zhuoxun (aka 'Zedd') is one of three Aussie founders based in the US on a mission to build the biggest crypto-powered creator marketplace in the world. It’s a bold goal and a big bet, but it's one that the best traditional VCs (Sequoia, Lightspeed and Greylock) as well as crypto VCs (Electric and Paradigm) have made.

We cover the Magic Eden founding story, learning fast, FTX (of course), making unpopular decisions as a founder, raising for a web3 startup and more.

Timestamps |

1:00 - Zhuoxun’s journey to date (Bain, Nimble, DyDx, Coinbase)

5:15 - Taking the risks to leave Bain, join a small startup called Nimble, be the 2nd employee at a protocol building on top of Ethereum

8:30 - How the founders came together to build an NFT marketplace on Solana

11:00 - Why moving fast as a startup in Web3 is even more important than every before

15:00 - The risks of being focused on Solana and being ready to move where the developers and users are

18:30 - When Magic Eden happy to use a third party solution instead of building something themselves

23:00 - The FTX debacle, and how Magic Eden protects against mismanagement

25:30 - The hard decision to make royalties optional, and how Magic Eden is focused on building technology that helps creators monetise without relying on royalties

30:00 - why zero royalty NFT marketplaces are gaining traction (despite it hurting creators)

32:00 - dealing with the demands of constant accountability from the community

36:00 - Comparing community / customer management at Magic Eden compared to Coinbase

39:00 - Why Zhuoxun thinks gaming and loyalty is the most exciting Web3 opportunity in the short term

43:00 - Reflections on capital raising for a web3 startup, and tips for founders looking to raise

49:00 - Raising cash vs raising with tokens

52:00 - Zhuoxun’s biggest mistake

55:00 - what Zhuoxun’s up to while he is in Aus

Connect |

Zhuoxun’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/ZhuoxunYin

Zhuoxun’s Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/zhuoxun-yin-3ba93728/

Magic Eden’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/MagicEden

Magic Eden’s Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/company/magic-eden/

Magic Eden Website - https://magiceden.io/

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Show Summary |

The word 'stake' in crypto land really annoyed me the first few times I came across it. I struggled to understand it or compare it to anything I'd seen or heard of before.Episode 7 of Abstraction is a sharp lesson on 'staking' with the help of Daniel Dizon, co-founder and CEO of Swell Network.

It involves, in crypto terms, a relatively low risk investment for a material reward.Daniel and his co-founder Lecky Lao are making this more accessible for ordinary people, abstracting away the risks and barriers to entry that limit participation.

We discuss what staking is, why one should care, how it compares to ordinary forms of investing, and the mechanics around how Swell generates yield for its users.

Timestamps |

3:00 – The orgins of Swell

4:30 – what is proof-of-stake and why is ‘staking’ necessary?

6:30 – the existential threat that motivated Daniel to build on Ethereum

8:00 - the difference between running a node and staking and how you make money in each case

10:00 – barriers to entry for node operators and what’s required to run a node

10:30 – why does getting staking rewards via a decentralized rather than centralized vector matter?

12:30 – how much control do you have as an investor in Swell on where your yield comes from?

14:00 -How do you make sure that node operators are reliable?

15:30 – why the Merge will increase participation in staking?

19:00 – Daniel’s perspective on staking as an investment class

21:30 – state of protocol and what will come following their recent capital raise

23:30 – Swell’s go-to-market strategy

25:00 – Devising Swell’s tokenomics strategy

26:30 – getting started with Swell

27:00 = Connecting with Daniel and Lecky

Connect |

Swell website and DApp - https://swellnetwork.io/

Daniel’s Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-dizon/

Lecky’s Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/leckylao/

Swell Network Twitter - https://twitter.com/swellnetworkio

Swell Network Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/company/swellnetworkio/

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit abstractionpodcast.substack.com

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Show Summary |

Clem Oh has a story of ambition and grit. His journey from law/commerce dropout to self taught engineer is a brave one.

Having worked at the coal face of the token launch for Australia's biggest Web3 company, Immutable, Clem has some surprising first-hand reflections on what’s involved.

We discuss:

• the complexities that come with airdrops and ensuring ownership is distributed for the long term benefit of a project

• misconceptions about working on web3 projects and the impact of 'the Merge'

• whether the introduction of mobile devices will catalyse mainstream crypto use

Enjoy 😊

Timestamps |

1:20 – Clement’s unusual background

7:30 – the preparatory steps for a token launch

11:00 – biggest challenge encountered during the token launch

12:30 – the dual track focus of building and keeping a community updated

15:00 – why technology means communities hold more power in web3 v web2

17:30 – why the development of smart contracts is not as cumbersome as people might think

21:10 – Clement on whether he would develop on chains other than Ethereum

22:30 – Clement on the merge and why it improves environmental impact but not scalability

28:00 – Clement on the effectiveness of DAOs and what needs to be in place

30:20 – whether the introduction of mobile phones from crypto companies will be the catalyst for crypto use from the early majority – could improve this context switch

36:00 – Clement’s contrarion views on how best to cut through to learn efficiently in Web3

39:00 – where to connect with Clement

Connect with Clement |

Clement’s Linktree - https://linktr.ee/clemoh

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit abstractionpodcast.substack.com

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Show Summary |

This interview is essential listening for anyone that’s transacted with crypto to date, particularly those that haven’t properly turned their minds to tax yet (it’s time, ladies and gentlemen).

Shane and I delve into the common web3 transactions and their tax treatment.

We also discuss how the Crypto Tax Calculator software connects with exchanges and wallets to give you a full picture of your tax position.

We finish with some clear steps on how to use Crypto Tax Calculator as an individual, and how to work with accountants to ensure you’re compliant.

Timestamps |

2:00 - Shane’s foray intro crypto, working with a decentralized exchange, and experiencing his own crypto tax nightmare
4:30 - The problem Crypto Tax Calculator is solving and how the company has evolved to date
7:30 – How the product sits alongside today’s traditional accountants and advisors
10:45 - Talking through the typical transactions someone might make when buying a cryptocurrency or an NFT
13:30 – More complicated tax events (ie airdrops and staking)
19:30 - Algorithmic vs collateral backed stablecoins – Terra Luna Case Study
24:00 - What staking means
27:00 - Liquidity provision and it’s tax treatment
30:30 - How to use Crypto Tax Calculator as an individual
36:00 - What Shane wants to see that will help protect individuals against tax surprises
38:20 - Where to follow Shane and Crypto Tax Calculator

Connect with Shane and Crypto Tax Calculator |

Shane’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shanebrunette/
Shane’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/sshbrunette
Crypto Tax Calculator Twitter: https://twitter.com/CryptoTaxHQ
Crypto Tax Calculator Website: https://cryptotaxcalculator.io

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit abstractionpodcast.substack.com

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Show Summary |

Episode 4: What lives beneath the open blockchain sea?

What actually sits beneath the user interface of blockchain-based apps and protocols that we use to trade crypto assets?

Understanding how assets move around, how transactions are verified and how safely and securely this is done can be a nightmare.

Fortunately, today’s guest Abhishek Maran is seasoned when it comes to abstracting away the complexity of blockchain infrastructure and identifying today's biggest challenges and opportunities.

The episode is a masterclass in:
the inverted pyramid structure of blockchain layers
the movement of digital assets between different blockchains
the infamous builder’s trilemma between speed, security and control
competition in Web3, using OpenSea as a case study

Enjoy :)

Timestamps |

2:00 – Abhi’s background
6:30 - the layers that make up blockchain infrastructure
9:00 - open-source and composability
12:00 - building on Ethereum vs other blockchains
13:00 - grant making – how blockchain developers try and attract other builders
14:30 - scalability trilemma
16:30 - the difference between storing data on chain vs off chain
18:00 - OpenSea Case Study: a discussion around defensibility and decentralisation
24:30 - bridging, portability, and the feasibility of this multichain metaverse
30:30 - 51% attacks , bad actors and verifying on chain behaviour
37:00 - why Abhi founded DAO Under
42:00 - Eth Down Under – an event not to be missed!

Connect with Abhi |
Twitter - https://twitter.com/AbhishekM__10
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/abhishekmaran/
Substack - https://substack.com/profile/16982586-abhishek-maran

Mentions |

Magic Eden - https://magiceden.io/
ArcX - https://arcx.game/
Eth Down Under - https://ethdownunder.com/
DAO Under - https://twitter.com/dao_under

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit abstractionpodcast.substack.com

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Show Summary |

Episode 3! Can decentralised governance work?

Many see a future where organisations, both public and private, are able to function free of traditional leadership and decision making powers, relying solely on rules encoded by computer programs.

In a perfect world, these rules need no changing or interpretation. However, history tells us that there is no such world.

So, without enforceable rules and means of intervention, how does one get comfort that they will be protected when things go wrong? Who manages complaints and resolves disputes?

This is one of the key barriers to the mass adoption of web3 commerce today, and why am I excited to be sharing this insight-packed interview with digital assets lawyer and consultant Joni Pirovich.
Tune in below to hear about how Joni thinks through the risks and rewards of DAO participation, protocols and exchanges as well as why the relationship between software developers and lawyers is more important than ever before.

Timestamps |

2:15 - Joni explains why she went all in on blockchain & digital assets
8:40 - Transacting with wallets and on exchanges – who bears the risk?
13:30 – Will startups be able to earn consumer trust over banks? What does insurance look like?
20:00 – DAOs: their history, how they exist in substance vs legal form
31:00 – The interplay between code and law in web3 – what happens when there are disputes or complaints?
34:00 - How Joni is helping improve the local regulatory environment
39:00 – Zero-knowledge proofs and transacting pseudonymously
44:30 – where Joni looks for thought leadership

Connect with Joni |

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonipirovich/?originalSubdomain=au
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jonipirovich
BADASL Website: www.badasl.com
BADASL Discord: https://discord.gg/t9rZNM4Q

Mentions |

TracerDAO - https://tracer.finance/
Nexus Mutual - https://nexusmutual.io/
Mycelium - https://mycelium.xyz/
Elliptic - https://www.elliptic.co/
Chainanalysis - https://www.chainalysis.com/
BanklessDAO Discord - https://discord.gg/t9rZNM4Q

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit abstractionpodcast.substack.com

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Show Summary |

Despite the crypto horror stories of late, some are doubling down.
In this episode, I talk to Matt Harcourt from Apollo Capital. Matt Harcourt’s job is to consider evolving risks and invest in opportunities that have emerged from financial instruments powered by code, which are purportedly free of dependence on intermediaries and interference from bad actors.
Matt takes us through how one can (still) build wealth in decentralised finance and we reflect on the learnings from the last few months of crypto turmoil and what it might mean for the ecosystem in the short to medium term.
In Matt’s words, the episode is “unapologetically technical” at times, so I’ve included a cheat sheet of key terms on Substack.

Follow Matt on Twitter @DeFiGuy3
Timestamps |

1:30 - Matt’s background and journey into DeFi

3:00 - The ways in which Apollo invests

4:20 - How Apollo is navigating the crypto winter and what they’ve learned from recent events

12:20 - Providing liquidity to a liquidity pool and the associated risks

13:30 - Smart contracts and protocols

14:30 - Comparing the governance of a protocol to the function of a traditional company

16:30 - Assessing smart contract risk

20:30 - The differences between TradFi, CeFi and DeFi

25:45 - Lessons to be learned from the mismanagement of Celsius (CeFi institution)

30:00 - A diversified approach to investing in crypto

32:00 - ‘Bridging’ risk and transferring crypto assets across different blockchains

36:30 - How Matt filters through hype and marketing

40:00 - What Apollo has planned and where you can follow Matt and Apollo

Socials |

Matt’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthew-harcourt-5b6742159/

Matt’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/DeFiGuy3

Apollo’s Website: https://www.apollocap.io/

Apollo’s Linkedin: linkedin.com/company/apollo-capital/

Apollo’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/ApolloCapitalAU

Upside DAO (the new accelerator Apollo have formed in partnership with Caleb & Brown, Banxa and a number of other investors): https://twitter.com/Upside_Aus

Other Notable Mentions:

Index Coop - https://indexcoop.com/

Chain Flip - https://chainflip.io/

Stargate - https://stargate.cosmos.network/

Defi Llama - https://defillama.com/

Cheat Sheet |

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View Details

Show Summary:

Today we hear from investor and community builder, Jessy Wu.

We begin by exploring Jessy’s background and what has driven her love of community, before diving into the mechanics of non-fungible token technology, how this is facilitating community building, as well as the mental models Jessy thinks through when purchasing an NFT. She also shares her cautionary perspectives on speculative investment in the space, and how she approached learning by doing with her own Afterwork Astronauts NFT launch.

We close with a discussion around assessing investment opportunities when looking at Web3 projects, and how this might differ from assessing traditional companies, with specific regard to defensibility and competition.

Timestamps:

Start - Afterwork, why Jessy joined, and their approach to community powered VC investing

2:25 - Episode summary and Jessy intro

6:00 - How communities have evolved over time, how they’ve weakened, and the shortfalls that stirred the formation of Web3 communities

15:30 - Mental model for purchasing NFTs

25:30 - Learning by creating a community - The 'Afterwork Astronauts'

34:30 - A case study on Earlywork - a community embodying Web3 principles

38:30 - Evaluating defensibility as an investor in Web3

45:00 - Where to follow Jessy

Links:

Jessy's Socials -

Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessyzwu/

Twitter - https://twitter.com/jessywu95

Afterwork -

Afterwork Astronauts website - https://www.afterwork.vc/astronauts

Afterwork founder deck - https://docsend.com/view/j9ef29z5658zvxcr

Afterwork Astronauts discord - https://discord.com/invite/xJTUzfTt?fbclid=IwAR2hFajSG6bQ7rYAvC3E3n_IqG17Y51Q_8_lBwfnM1X5JRpqDxdgufabFMA

NFT Projects -

Crypto Coven - https://www.cryptocoven.xyz/

Fortune Friends Club - https://fortunefriends.club/

Astro Girls - https://www.astrogirls.wtf/

Bored Apes - https://boredapeyachtclub.com/#/

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This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit abstractionpodcast.substack.com