Experience Matters with Steve Shapiro: Recent Episodes
Steve Shapiro
If you ask someone about the most powerful learning experience of their youth, few people will mention a lecture, a textbook reading, or a test. Nearly all will identify an EXPERIENCE; that is because experiential learning is the most profound and lasting form of learning. So if experience matters, how do we offer it to students in our schools? This podcast invites folks to share the learning experience that most deeply impacted their lives, and each episode includes provocations about how we can bring those types of experiences into the mainstream of American schools. Experience Matters is about harnessing the power of experiential learning to transform public education
Exquisite Compassion with Father Greg Boyle
Father Greg Boyle has spent most of his adult years helping transform the lives of former gang members at Homeboy Industries in Los Angeles. In this conversation he applies his many lessons learned to how we can increase joy and reduce loneliness in schools through kinship, mercy, and meaning.
We cover a lot of territory, including:
2:21 Greg’s childhood on Norton Avenue
4:23 How Bolivia turned Greg inside out
9:00 How Homeboy Industries came to be
12:26 Building a powerful culture
16:50 A powerful message from a Homie to teachers
19:02 The cultural problem in American schools (the power of relationships)
21:23 The powerful story of Lencho and true belonging
25:30 Exquisite compassion and merciful community
30:09 How Father Greg’s school addressed the most difficult students
31:02 Steve seeks counsel on the youth mental health crisis
33:13 The recipe for sadness and the recipe for joy and wholeness
36:57 How schools are rising to meet the challenge
40:06 Father Greg tells a story you won’t want to miss
Learn more about Father Greg and Homeboy Industries
Homeboy Industries’ powerful 30-year anniversary short video
Father Greg’s commencement address at Pepperdine University
Mike Wallace’s 1992 60 Minutes story on Father Greg
Michelle Pledger confronted the internalized oppression from her experiences as a Black girl in a predominately white school; then she converted her newfound wisdom into a commitment to promote culturally relevant teaching practices that honor and support the lived experiences of all students. Her story is essential listening for anyone committed to equity and social justice.
We cover a lot territory, including:
4:00 Black in a White school
7:42 Michelle’s awakening
10:58 The personal cost of assimilation
15:05 Michelle’s challenge to you
18:08 Personal filters and blind spoted
19:50 Decolonizing our schools
21:43 Liberating the curriculum
24:16 The startling impact of non-representation
26:44 Individualistic vs. collectivist cultures
29:48 Liberating classroom communication
35:20 Deficit thinking: our subconscious biases about intelligence
39:31 Ability grouping’s harmful effects
43:11 What’s stopping us from being culturally responsive?
48:35 Michelle’s call to action
Michelle Pledger’s personal website
Michelle’s about page at the High Tech High Graduate School of Education
Purchase Liberate! Pocket-Sized Paradigms for Liberatory Learning
About Experience Matters
Experience Matters with Steve Shapiro invites guests to reflect on the most profound learning experiences of their youth and to consider how we can reform American schools. Each episode provides clues about how parents and educators alike can engage young people in powerful, sometimes transformational experiential learning. Education can take many forms, but whatever form it takes- experience matters.
Humans, young and old, share a basic need to have some authorship in our own lives. Dr. Russell Quaglia has built his entire career around how to bring students’ voices into focus in classrooms and schools across the world. The result is happier students who learn more.
We cover a lot of territory, including:
2:55 The difference between hockey and school
7:40 Our basic human need
8:50 Russ’s definition of voice
11:21 The (often missing) factor needed for voice to thrive
14:50 Why surveys often fail (or worse)
17:30 Can kids really know what’s best for them?
22:24 The students we often overlook
26:24 A sense of belonging
28:25 The link between voice and learning
30:25 The link between voice and democratic citizenship
31:57 What’s stopping us?
33:49 Reflect on our purpose and renew our passion
Link to the Quaglia Institute for Voice and Aspirations
Link to Steve’s short video reflecting on what has really mattered in his career
About Experience Matters
Experience Matters with Steve Shapiro invites guests to reflect on the most profound learning experiences of their youth and to consider how we can reform American schools. Each episode provides clues about how parents and educators alike can engage young people in powerful, sometimes transformational experiential learning. Education can take many forms, but whatever form it takes- experience matters.
Episode 19: The Achievement Culture Cure with Dr. Stuart Slavin
When Dr. Stuart Slavin received disturbing data about the dismal mental health of students at St. Louis University School of Medicine, he broke into action. The changes that Dr. Slavin and his faculty made transformed the mental health of their students…AND improved their learning outcomes! This is a MUST LISTEN episode.
We cover a lot of territory, including:
0:54 Great news and a warning
4:29 Stuart in denial
6:12 Stuart confronts the dismal truth with a heroic response
8:20 Identifying the 3 main stressors and attacking them
9:50 Understanding the crisis as an environmental context issue
11:25 Stuart makes specific teaching and learning changes
13:09 Wait this is insane! The Yerkes-Dodson Curve
14:37 Creating space for powerful self-directed learning experiences
16:53 Cutting back content to focus on the essentials
18:26 Undoing problematic mindsets through cognitive restructuring
22:14 Surprising survey results on sleep and study time
22:51 Why wellness programs often backfire
23:51 STUNNING improvements in mental health and learning
26:25 High school might be harder than med school
28:15 Steve surprises Stuart with a new perspective on his work
29:41 The mistake high schools make when considering mental health
30:40 Achievement culture and racism both have institutional factors
32:35 The simple first step high schools can take
34:25 Where to focus: well-being or satisfaction?
37:30 A new learning value in a rapidly changing world
38:42 What about teachers’ mental health?
41:24 Stuart’s passionate plea to educators and parents- WE CAN DO THIS!
Dr. Slavin’s 2014 article in the journal Academic Medicine: Medical Student Mental Health 3.0: Improving Student Wellness Through Curricular ChangesDr. Slavin’s 2019 Journal of Academic Medicine article: Reflections on a Decade Leading a Medical Student Well-Being InitiativeSteve’s blog post about impermanent learning: The Uncomfortable Truth About School
Steve’s conversation with Emmy Huefner about her encouneters with achievement culture stress as a student.
Steve’s conversation with Dr. William Stixrud about the impact chronic achievement culture stress has on the adolescent brain.
This is Your Brain on Achievement Culture with Dr. William Stixrud
We are in the midst of a youth mental health crisis, especially among kids in “high achieving” schools. Neuropsychologist William Stixrud has a front row-seat to the crisis, with unique insight into emerging research on the impact that “achievement-culture” related chronic stress and anxiety have on the adolescent brain.
We cover a lot of territory, including:
4:20 How the Beatles shaped Bill’s brain
7:46 The difference between rich and poor kids’ mental health
8:58 The mental health status of “high achieving kids”
10:51 Detailing the adolescent mental health CRISIS
13:19 The cruel untruths we tell teens
16:52 How stress “sculpts” the adolescent brain
18:39 The relationship between the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala
21:41 A crazy story about fearing a kid in Iowa
23:17 How depression “scars” kids’ brains
24:27 The most important indicator of a successful childhood
26:58 How fear fuels the problem
29:00 The most stressful thing in the universe
30:47 Teenagers’ experience of learned helplessness
32:53 School policy strips kids of autonomy
34:53 Teachers need autonomy too!
38:11 The startling paradox of “good schools”
Here’s a link to my conversation with Emmy Huefner about her experiences with achievement culture stress.
In our race to cover state content standards and prepare students for high-stakes tests, many educators are overlooking a powerful strategy for transforming students’ futures and making serious strides toward equity. Policy analyst and author Julia Freeland Fisher preaches the game-changing impact of expanding students’ social networks.
Julia Freeland Fisher is the director of education research at the Clayton Christensen Institute. Her team educates policymakers and community leaders on the power of disruptive innovation, aiming to transform monolithic, factory-model education systems into student-centered designs that enable each student to realize his or her fullest potential. Julia is also the author of Who You Know: Unlocking Innovations That Expand Students’ Networks, along with a great collection of blog posts and this AMAZING PLAYBOOK for implementing the ideas we discuss in the episode.
We cover a lot of territory including:
2:54 How Bear McCreary became one of the top composers of our time
5:20 Young Julia’s 1st-hand experience with “opportunity gaps”
6:53 Two types of social capital: getting by vs. getting ahead
9:01 WHAT you know vs. WHO you know
10:25 Breaking out of the school’s embryonic community
11:28 The inequity of inherited social networks
13:13 How “enrichment spending” exacerbates inequity
14:18 Research on the link between social capital and economic mobility
15:25 How schools can tap into community capital
18:23 Existing models for schools to engage networks
21:32 Overcoming “Byzantine” school schedules
24:54 How schools can track and systemize social capital
26:15 What gets measured gets done
27:38 A challenge to affluent people who care about equity
29:30 Whose job is this?
30:44 A simple first step for school leaders
31:52 The “low-hanging fruit”- Internship programs
33:20 Models/programs for school-wide implementation
34:51 Connecting with our WHY and overcoming teacher burnout
Here are some programs and tools Julia discusses in the interview:
Big Picture Learning Network
ImBlaze
Educurious
CommunityShare
The Forest School
Social Capital Builders
Connected Futures
Career Launch
In October 2022, educators from across the country gathered at NIHF STEM Middle School in Akron, Ohio for TeachBetter22. In this special edition episode, you'll hear 22 conference participants share the most powerful learning experience of their youth. The episode closes with an unforgettable tale from conference keynote speaker and Grammy winner Mickey Smith Jr.
Teenage Takeover with Sam Levin
Today Sam Levin is the 29-year-old Oxford PhD CEO of a biotech company. Thirteen years ago he was a high school junior exasperated at his friends’ disengagement and unhappiness at school. So he did something about it! Now students, teachers, and parents are taking note of his bold vision.
We cover a lot of territory including:
3:11 The seeds of Sam’s discontent with school
4:28 Sam’s mom puts forth a challenge
5:11 A community garden reveals that teens can love learning and hard work
6:34 How teachers unfairly label students
8:46 Sam’s vision for a student-run school meets resistance
10:37 The teacher that shattered Sam’s illusions
12:04 The remarkable vision of the Independent Project
13:39 Parents' fears about the Independent Project
14:15 The relationship between pedagogy and tracking/ability grouping
15:40 The foundational reasons we should stop tracking kids
16:58 The remarkable design of the Independent Project
19:07 Every student creates an “individual endeavor” around a passion
19:39 Getting into college
20:29 A “collective endeavor” to promote powerful collaboration
21:32 Practicing 21st century skills
22:50 The life-changing impact of the Independent Project
25:17 De-orientation to break bad school habits
26:30 Sam’s PhD. and the creation of Melonfrost
28:04 How the Independent Project planted the seeds for Sam’s CEO success
30:02 Sam’s advice to educators
31:30 Steve poses a thought experiment
Independent Project documentary (14 minutes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RElUmGI5gLc
Sam and his mom’s book about the Independent Project
https://thenewpress.com/books/school-of-our-own
Sam’s biotech company- Melonfrost
https://www.melonfrost.com
If you liked this podcast, here are some other episodes you can check out:
A portrait of an exhausted, dispirited high school student: https://www.steventshapiro.com/experiencematters/a-letter-to-my-younger-self-with-emmy-huefner
A mini version of the Independent Project for middle school students: https://www.steventshapiro.com/experiencematters/suzannegoldsmithhirsch
Harvard thought-leader on 21st century learning Tony Wagner on why our kids need schools like the independent project: https://www.steventshapiro.com/experiencematters/tuned-in-to-the-future-with-tony-wagner
NYTimes bestselling author Daniel Pink on how autonomous learning transformed his brain: https://www.steventshapiro.com/experiencematters/the-epiphany-with-daniel-pink
About Experience Matters
Experience Matters with Steve Shapiro invites guests to reflect on the most profound learning experiences of their youth and to consider how we can reform American schools. Each episode provides clues about how parents and educators alike can engage young people in powerful, sometimes transformational experiential learning. Education can take many forms, but whatever form it takes- experience matters.
“Tuned In” to the Future with Tony Wagner
A surprise package arrived at 11-year-old Tony Wagner’s house that permanently impacted his understanding of learning. Decades later, after a career that included twenty years of thought leadership at Harvard University and multiple best-selling books on school reform, Wagner connects the dots to the essential 21st century skills our schools are missing.
Tony Wagner is one of the nation’s leading educational reformers. His books
· The Global Achievement Gap: Why Even Our Best Schools Don’t Teach the New Survival Skills Our Children Need- And What We Can Do About It
· Creating Innovators: The Making of Young People Who Will Change the World
· Most Likely To Succeed: Preparing Our Kids for the Innovation Era
make the case for modernizing schools to focus on innovation and creative problem-solving skills. In our conversation he shares the learning experiences that shaped him and the challenges that our schools face as they try to prepare young people for a rapidly changing world.
We cover a lot of territory including:
3:15 The experience that forever changed 11-year-old Tony
6:50 Persistence creates a EUREKA moment!
8:15 Failure---Persistence---Curiosity---Learning
9:50 The genesis of Tony’s writing career
11:35 Tony’s writing teacher who wasn’t really his teacher
13:38 The piece of classic literature that provided Tony’s “a-ha moment”
15:15 The difference between Tony and Daniel Pink as students
17:10 Reflecting on Ted Sizer’s Coalition of Essential Schools reform movement
19:58 The destructive impact of standardized testing
20:35 The stunning insights from conversations with business and military leaders
22:25 How schools kill innovation thinking
24:38 Why innovation and creative problem solving are so essential
26:17 A simple suggestion for teachers to nurture creativity
28:18 The tremendous damage of the accountability movement
30:43 The future of schools and the need for business leaders to speak out
32:40 Play, Passion, and Purpose
Tony Wagner’s Website: https://www.tonywagner.com
Tony’s Books: https://www.tonywagner.com/books
My favorite Tony Wagner quotes (discussed at 22:16)
· "Not only are we not developing and cultivating creative geniuses in our schools, we may actually be doing the opposite."
· "The culture of schooling is radically at odds with the culture of learning that creates innovators."
About Experience Matters
Experience Matters with Steve Shapiro invites guests to reflect on the most profound learning experiences of their youth and to consider how we can reform American schools. Each episode provides clues about how parents and educators alike can engage young people in powerful, sometimes transformational experiential learning. Education can take many forms, but whatever form it takes- experience matters.
Julie Kim is an L.A.-based college admissions counselor who helps young people gain entrance into America’s most selective colleges. In this conversation Julie pulls back the curtain on the college admissions process and shows young people how they can not only get into selective colleges, but how they can be happier and more excited as they do it.
Julie Kim is the founder of Julie Kim Consulting. She has helped her clients gain admissions to the nation’s most competitive colleges, from Stanford to Yale, using her foundational strategy: the Passion Project. Julie developed the idea as a burned-out high school student and used it to gain admission to USC and later Harvard. In this conversation she turns the conventional wisdom about college admission on its head and shows how doing it the right way not only works, but also yields happiness and positive mental health.
We cover a lot of territory including:
1:50: Steve offers two important disclaimers (Here's the episode about achievement culture stress described in the disclaimer.)
4:51: How social media around college admissions harms students’ mental health
7:13: The great misconception about being a “well-rounded student”
9:42: How to identify your “passion” (interest + action)
10:26: Julie’s personal journey as a student
12:05: Selling out your childhood for a fallacy
12:39: An example of a student’s passion project
14:23: The story of a friend’s son who didn’t get into his top choice college
16:07: How to figure out your passion (or how schools need to change)
17:49 Why project-based learning is so powerful
18:59: The enormous power of connecting with adults
24:17: The view from a college admissions officer’s seat
27:07 How colleges look for intellectual curiosity. Hint: experience matters
29:42: Julie and Steve reimagine what’s possible in schools
31:52: Julie’s surprising advice to teenagers
My favorite quote from this episode:
“(When students work on a passion project) I think they feel refreshed that there’s another way to navigate life as an adolescent… A lot of my students tell me…no one told me that this was possible for me. So I think they feel like this is refreshing, and a little hopeful as well .” (21:50)
Julie Kim’s website: https://juliekimconsulting.com
About Experience Matters
Experience Matters with Steve Shapiro invites guests to reflect on the most profound learning experiences of their youth and to consider how we can reform American schools. Each episode provides clues about how parents and educators alike can engage young people in powerful, sometimes transformational experiential learning. Education can take many forms, but whatever form it takes- experience matters.
Episode 12: The Epiphany with Daniel Pink
Daniel Pink’s book A Whole New Mind makes the case for why experiential learning is necessary in the 21st century. His book Drive explains why it is also so much more motivating for young people. The epiphany that led Dan to these ideas may have occurred when, as a 14-year-old freshman, he wrote his first story for his high school newspaper, The Bexley Torch. In this interview Dan digs up long-buried memories and relives the moment that experiential learning produced what he describes as a physiological change in his brain.
We cover a lot of territory including:
3:37 Dan as a regrettably compliant student
4:30 Performance goals vs. learning goals (or why Dan can’t speak French)
5:59 How performance goals harm mental health
8:49 Dan’s first Torch story assignment produces a major epiphany
14:07 How extra-curricular experiences differ from traditional school learning
15:11 The link between motivation and human nature
17:51 How the world has changed yet schools stay largely the same
19:37 The skills young people need to avoid having their future jobs outsourced
22:12 Why traditional academic skills are still important, but they’re no longer sufficient
24:04 How Dan’s children engaged in experiential learning outside of school
26:21 What about kids without well-resourced parents?
27:41 Can schools change when we’re so deeply rooted in “bygone era” traditions?
29:00 Dan’s simple and practical suggestion to educators
29:45 An outrageous visual picture of traditional education
30:43 Standardization vs. extreme customization
31:42 A passage from Drive that epitomizes the value of experiential learning
My favorite quote from Drive:
“We know that human beings are not merely smaller, slower, better-smelling horses galloping after that day’s carrot. We know- if we’ve spent time with young children or remember ourselves at our best- that we’re not destined to be passive or compliant; we’re designed to be active and engaged. And we know that the richest experiences in our lives aren’t when we’re clamoring for validation from others, but when we’re listening to our own voice- doing something that matters, doing it well, and doing it in the service of a cause larger than ourselves.”
Daniel Pink’s website: https://www.danpink.com
A Whole New Mind: https://www.danpink.com/books/whole-new-mind/
Drive: https://www.danpink.com/books/drive/
Sign up for Daniel Pink’s newsletter: https://www.danpink.com/subscribe/
Steve Shapiro’s website: https://www.steventshapiro.com
About Experience Matters
Experience Matters with Steve Shapiro invites guests to reflect on the most profound learning experiences of their youth and to consider how we can reform American schools. Each episode provides clues about how parents and educators alike can engage young people in powerful, sometimes transformational experiential learning. Education can take many forms, but whatever form it takes- experience matters.
Gavin Levine spent his junior year of high school as a Rotary Youth Exchange student in Taoyuan, Taiwan. This engaging conversation reveals the enormous growth young people can experience when they leave their comfort zones to enter new cultures, whether across the globe or close to home.
Bryan Drewry is a community leader and a serial connector. He developed his talent for engaging with people through a series of high school experiences that served as a “hidden curriculum” of his education.
Duncan Johnson is a high school junior who runs a coding camp, is working in his second internship, and is filled with excitement for learning. It’s like he listened to the Episode 8 interview with Emmy Huefner and took her advice to heart. Duncan has identified his deepest interest, computer coding for immersive reality gaming, and is pursuing it with passion. Our conversation is a blueprint for every young person who is looking to make their high school years meaningful, productive, and exciting. Duncan will show you how happiness and preparation for life after high school can go hand in hand.
Emmy Huefner spent her high school years doing everything others expected of her. She took lots of honors and AP classes, played sports and music, sought leadership positions in school clubs, and did volunteer work. She was driven by the goal of getting into a “good college.” By time she graduated, Emmy was burned out and had lost her love for learning. A gap year of global service allowed her to, for the first time in her life, deeply reflect on who she is and what she wants her life to be about. This conversation is essential listening for every young person trying to figure out how to make their way in the world.
Chad Hemmelgarn was an energetic kid for whom school just didn't work, until some visionary teachers found a way to identify and develop his creative gifts. Their utilization of experiential learning helped Chad develop into a beloved high school teacher who provides similar opportunity and inspiration to his students.
Eric Acton has been a beloved teacher and coach for more than three decades. As an 18-year-old custodian at the Columbus science center, he could never have dreamed of the life he was about to lead. That all changed because of the Girl Scouts and a guy named Jarvis. Eric's story is an inspiring reminder of the immense potential locked inside every child.
Stacy Bell was preparing to become a teacher when an experiential lesson in one of her education classes transformed her approach to teaching and learning. Her encounter with owl pellets has impacted countless elementary and middle school students during her nearly three-decade teaching career.
In the wake of George Floyd's murder, then 19-year-old Kaia Woodford headed to the Ohio Statehouse to join the protests. She began speaking at rallies, leading her to join other Bexley alumni in founding the Bexley Anti-Racism Project (BARP). She reflects on her journey to becoming a powerful voice in the fight against racism in her community.
At age 10, Olivia Weinstock started a babysitting "camp" for her kid sister's friends. By 18 it was a thriving business with strong brand recognition. Two years later she expanded the service and became the Founder and CEO of a venture capital-funded business.
What happens when you unleash a band of 8th graders in a major city and tell them to design their own learning? Author & journalist Suzanne Goldsmith-Hirsch describes a groundbreaking middle school program where she and her classmates did just that. The results were remarkable!
After graduating high school Zach Shapiro embarked on a global gap year with Thinking Beyond Borders. He studied sustainability in Guatemala, education in Thailand, and public health in Ghana. Learn about the indelible impact that his gap year made on Zach and see how it impacted not only his studies at The Ohio State University, but also his whole approach to living.