Course Creators Academy

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As entrepreneurs, we're constantly evolving, and our businesses should evolve with us. But making a pivot can feel overwhelming, especially when you've invested so much time and energy into building what you already have. Pualena explores how to recognize when it's time for a change, why pivots are often signs of growth rather than failure, and how to move forward without losing sight of your bigger vision.

Throughout the episode, she shares practical ways to evaluate what's working, let go of what no longer serves your business, and make strategic decisions that create new opportunities. Rather than reacting from fear or burnout, you'll learn how to pivot from a place of clarity, confidence, and intention.

If you've been wondering whether it's time to refine your offers, reposition your brand, or take your business in a new direction, this episode is your reminder that growth often begins with the courage to embrace change. Every successful entrepreneur faces moments of reinvention, and your next pivot could be the one that opens the door to your biggest opportunities yet.

Resources discussed in this episode:

The Brand Wrap

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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Your brand should do more than look good. In this solo episode, Pualena shares a powerful five-point brand audit designed to help business owners evaluate whether their brand is truly working for them or whether they're constantly compensating for misalignment. She breaks down what branding really means beyond logos and colors, explaining why brand energy, consistency, and alignment are the true drivers of recognition and growth.

Throughout the episode, Pualena explores the five essential areas every entrepreneur should regularly assess: audience alignment, visual coherence, voice consistency, offer clarity, and marketing leverage. Each section includes a diagnostic question, common warning signs, practical exercises you can complete this week, and guidance on recognizing when it's time to seek outside support. Along the way, she shares personal stories from her own rebrand, lessons learned from years of running RBL Media, and actionable strategies that can immediately improve how your business is perceived.

Whether you're a new entrepreneur refining your message or an established business owner preparing for your next stage of growth, this episode will help you identify where your brand is building momentum and where it's quietly costing you opportunities. Grab a notebook, work through the exercises, and start building a brand that consistently works on your behalf.

Resources discussed in this episode:

Wordpress.org
Squarespace
Kajabi
RBL Brand Wrap

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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If you've ever found yourself saying yes to every client request, struggling with scope creep, or wondering how to package your services into something clients immediately understand, this episode is for you. Pualena breaks down the exact five-step framework she uses at RBL Media to create signature offers that protect your time while delivering exceptional client experiences.

You'll learn how to identify patterns in your previous client work, transform those patterns into a premium offer, create clear boundaries around scope, price based on outcomes instead of hours, and confidently sell a repeatable service that clients trust. Along the way, Pualena shares honest lessons from her own business, including where she got it wrong, how she corrected course, and why predictability is one of the most valuable things you can offer your clients.

Whether you're a designer, consultant, coach, marketer, or any service-based entrepreneur, this episode will help you package your expertise into an offer that's easier to market, easier to refer, and far more sustainable as your business grows.

Resources discussed in this episode:

Pia Silva
The Brand Wrap

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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In this episode, Pualena explores why visibility is one of the most overlooked yet essential components of business growth. While many entrepreneurs focus on perfecting their products or services, she explains that even the best offer cannot succeed if nobody knows it exists. Using her signature framework, "Get Visible. Be Memorable. Stay Profitable," Pualena breaks down the three layers of visibility that help businesses build awareness, establish trust, and create long-term momentum.

She walks listeners through the first two layers: what you say and where you say it. The first layer centers on storytelling, including both your own origin story and the transformation stories of your clients. Pualena explains how authentic storytelling creates connection, attracts aligned clients, and helps potential customers see themselves in your journey. She also introduces a powerful placement strategy using the metaphor of a storefront on a busy street versus a hidden shop in an alleyway, illustrating how businesses can leverage both high-traffic platforms and niche communities to grow their audience.

Finally, Pualena explores the concept of being "Omni AF," a term coined by her mentor Pia Silva, which describes the experience of appearing consistently across multiple platforms and touchpoints. She discusses the importance of creating content regularly, overcoming the "cringe ceiling" that keeps many entrepreneurs from showing up, and building systems that support long-term consistency. Whether you're just beginning to market your business or looking to increase your visibility in a crowded marketplace, this episode offers practical strategies to help you stand out, attract the right audience, and create lasting brand recognition.

Resources discussed in this episode:

Pia Silva – Business strategist, author, and founder of No BS Agency Mastery
Scale Solo by Pia Silva
Yelp for Business

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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In this episode, Pualena takes listeners behind the scenes of a complete business rebrand that happened in less than 48 hours. What began as a creative experiment quickly became a powerful reminder of the importance of alignment. After years of tweaking, redesigning, and chasing inspiration from other brands, she realized that her own brand had become disconnected from the bold, rebellious energy that originally inspired RBL Media. By revisiting her mission, values, ideal client, and positioning, she uncovered a visual identity that finally felt authentic.

Pualena shares how discovering the design style known as neo-brutalism unexpectedly validated everything she had been creating intuitively. Characterized by bold colors, thick outlines, hard shadows, expressive typography, and a rejection of polished corporate design trends, the aesthetic perfectly reflected the rebellious spirit at the heart of her brand. She explains why embracing this direction has made content creation easier, strengthened brand consistency, and reignited her excitement about sharing her business with the world.

This episode is also a powerful reminder that branding is far more than logos and color palettes. Pualena explores how a cohesive brand experience builds trust, creates predictability, improves user experience, and helps potential clients quickly determine whether they're the right fit. Through her own experience, she reflects on the transformation she sees clients experience when they finally feel proud of their website, brand, and online presence and why that confidence can have a profound impact on business growth.

Resources discussed in this episode:

Claude AI
Contra
Canva
Google Analytics (GA4)
Hotjar
FullStory
Kajabi

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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In this episode, Pua dives deep into the world of project management systems, client portals, and business organization tools. She shares the real behind-the-scenes evolution of RBL Media’s workflow, from platforms like Trello, Asana, ClickUp, and Kajabi to building a fully customized Notion workspace. Pualena explores the challenges of all-in-one platforms, sustainable systems, KPI tracking, tech stack management, and creating workflows that actually support long-term growth and team collaboration.

Pua breaks down why many project management systems fail—not because of the software itself, but because of inconsistent team buy-in and unsustainable processes. She discusses the importance of communication, transparency, and flexibility when building systems that serve both internal teams and clients. From client portals to SOP creation, KPI dashboards, automation, and AI-assisted workflows, this episode is packed with practical insights for entrepreneurs and agency owners looking to streamline operations without overcomplicating their business.

Pua also shares why she’s shifting away from relying entirely on all-in-one platforms and instead building a more diversified, adaptable tech stack. She opens up about the lessons learned from years of experimenting with tools, the hidden costs of subscriptions and integrations, and how platforms like Notion and Claude are helping RBL Media create more intentional, sustainable workflows. Whether you’re a solo entrepreneur, service provider, or growing agency owner, this episode offers a transparent and relatable look into building systems that evolve with your business.

Resources discussed in this episode:

Kajabi
Notion
ClickUp
Trello
Asana
Claude AI
Zapier
Calendly
Workflow
Markup.io
Loom
Basecamp

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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In this episode, Pua sits down with brand designer Rachel Lee to unpack the realities of hustle culture, the power of personal branding, and what it truly means to build a business that feels aligned. From navigating burnout to embracing authenticity, Rachel shares her journey of redefining success on her own terms.

Together, they dive into the evolution of branding and web design, discussing why long, drawn-out projects often fail both clients and designers, and how a more streamlined, strategy-first approach leads to better outcomes. They explore the role of AI in the creative process, the importance of trusting your instincts as a business owner, and why storytelling (especially on your “About” page) is one of the most powerful tools in building trust and connection.

Rachel opens up about her personal journey through burnout, debt, and identity shifts, revealing how embracing her true self transformed both her life and her business. This conversation is a raw and honest look at entrepreneurship, covering topics like hustle culture, self-care, authenticity in marketing, client relationships, and building a brand that actually reflects who you are, not who you think you need to be.

About Rachel Lee

Rachel Lee is a brand designer and creative entrepreneur known for her bold, immersive approach to personal branding and web design. Through her work, she helps business owners translate their ideas, values, and personality into visual identities that feel deeply aligned and authentic.

After navigating her own journey through burnout, financial stress, and identity misalignment, Rachel rebuilt her business around radical self-expression and intentional design. Today, she empowers entrepreneurs to embrace who they truly are, showing up online with confidence, clarity, and a brand that genuinely connects.

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Contact Rachel Lee:

Website
Instagram
LinkedIn

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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In this episode, Pua sits down with Karen Jee, founder of Glow Within Wellness, to explore how traditional Chinese medicine and intentional nourishment can support women’s hormonal health. Karen shares her personal healing journey from severe eczema, PCOS, and painful periods to building a wellness practice that helps women address root causes through food, balance, and gentle daily habits. This conversation is a beautiful introduction to cyclical nourishment, warm foods, seasonal eating, and the power of using food as medicine.

Karen breaks down some of the foundational principles behind her work, including the importance of balance, yin and yang, the energetic qualities of food, and how women can better support their bodies throughout different phases of their cycle. She and Pua discuss why period pain may be common but not necessarily normal, how cold foods can affect digestion, the role of warm cooked meals in supporting the body, and why cravings may offer valuable insight into what the body needs.

The conversation also dives into practical ways to make this work feel approachable in everyday life. Karen shares her philosophy around simple kitchen systems, quick broths and stocks, the five flavors in traditional Chinese medicine, and why restrictive meal plans often miss the mark. They also talk about Karen’s 90-day healing program for women, her in-person workshops on Oahu, and her postpartum meal support for new moms. This episode is a nourishing, empowering listen for any woman ready to feel more connected to her body and better supported through food.

About Karen Jee

Karen Jee is the founder of Glow Within Wellness and a trained traditional Chinese medicine dietary therapist. She helps women support their hormonal health through intentional, nourishing food rooted in traditional Chinese medicine and Ayurvedic principles.

After navigating her own healing journey with severe eczema, PCOS, and painful periods, Karen turned to food as medicine and built a practice centered on helping women address root causes with gentle, sustainable support. Through her programs, workshops, and postpartum services, she teaches women how to restore balance, feel deeply nourished, and work with their bodies instead of against them.

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Contact Karen Jee | Glow Within Wellness

Website
Instagram
TikTok
LinkedIn

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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Resistance in the design process isn’t always a red flag; it’s often a signal. In this episode, Pua breaks down what client pushback really means and how agency owners can reframe it as an opportunity to build trust, uncover deeper fears, and create better brand outcomes. If you’ve ever struggled with “difficult” clients, this episode will shift your perspective.

Resistance shows up in many forms, from clients questioning every decision to changing direction mid-project, or going silent when it’s time to take action. While many agency owners are taught to avoid or filter out these “red flag” clients, Pua offers a different perspective: the clients who push back the most are often the ones who need your expertise the most.

This episode explores how shifting your mindset from frustration to curiosity can transform not only your client relationships but also your results. At its core, brand work is identity work. Pua dives into the emotional side of branding and explains why resistance is often rooted in deeper fears: fear of being seen, fear of commitment, or fear of not being heard. For many entrepreneurs, building a brand requires stepping into visibility and making defining decisions, both of which can feel incredibly vulnerable. Understanding these underlying drivers allows designers and agency owners to better support their clients through the process.

Pua also shares practical strategies for navigating resistance, including active listening, reflecting back what you’re hearing, and asking better questions. She emphasizes the importance of creating a safe space for clients to work through their fears without delaying progress. While not all clients are the right fit (and some simply aren’t ready), approaching resistance with empathy rather than defensiveness can lead to powerful breakthroughs, stronger trust, and ultimately, better brand outcomes.

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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If your marketing feels off, inconsistent, or just isn’t working, the problem likely isn’t your marketing, but your brand strategy. In this episode, Pua breaks down how clarity, consistency, and strong positioning are the real drivers behind effective marketing, and why skipping this foundational work leads to confusion, burnout, and missed opportunities.

Pua dives into the difference between brand identity (what people see) and brand strategy (the thinking behind it), and why both are essential for building trust. She shares real-world examples of how inconsistent visuals, unclear messaging, and constant pivots can erode credibility, while a strong, well-defined brand creates predictability, which is one of the most important factors in converting clients.

You’ll also learn a practical framework to build brand clarity, including understanding who you are, who you serve, what you stand for, and how you show up. Plus, Pua highlights common signs your brand needs attention, like attracting the wrong clients, struggling to explain what you do, or relying too heavily on AI-generated content that lacks personality. This episode is a must-listen if you’re ready to simplify your marketing and build a brand that actually works.

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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Storytelling is one of the most powerful ways entrepreneurs can build trust, connection, and alignment with their audience. In this episode, Pua explores why many business owners feel pressure to craft a dramatic “origin story,” and why that pressure can actually hold people back from sharing the stories that truly matter. Instead of focusing on one defining moment, she encourages entrepreneurs to recognize that they have a collection of meaningful stories that can create connection and deepen relationships with their audience.

Pua explains how storytelling supports personal branding, authentic marketing, and small business marketing by helping people understand who you are, what you value, and why someone might choose to work with you over another business offering a similar service. She shares practical ways to begin building a personal “story library” through journaling, blogging, or other content marketing strategies.

You’ll come away from this episode with a list of prompts to spark ideas, from lessons learned the hard way to moments of imposter syndrome, small wins, and mindset shifts. Pua also discusses the importance of authenticity in a world filled with overly polished AI-generated content, reminding listeners that imperfect, honest storytelling often creates the strongest trust, engagement, and long-term connections with an audience.

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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In this episode of the RBL Media Podcast, Pua dives into a powerful mindset shift that’s transforming both her life and her business: moving from generalization to specialization. If you’ve been wearing all the hats in your business, this conversation is your invitation to rethink what’s possible. Pua unpacks the difference between outsourcing to “buy back your time” and intentionally building a collaborative ecosystem where every specialist thrives in their zone of genius.

Drawing inspiration from Native Hawaiian culture and the concept of communal specialization, Pua shares how ancient ecosystems thrived when each person focused on their unique role. She explores how this philosophy applies to modern entrepreneurship, especially for agency owners ready to evolve beyond the “do-it-all” phase. From navigating the financial fears of bringing on contractors to understanding how project pricing really works, Pua breaks down the practical and mindset components of building a win-win team structure that benefits you, your collaborators, and your clients.

You’ll walk away with tangible action steps, including how to audit your time, identify what lights you up (and what drains you), refine your systems, and begin bringing in the right support, one role at a time. If you’re ready to stop operating as a jack-of-all-trades and start building a business rooted in clarity, collaboration, and sustainable growth, this episode is for you!

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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Pua sits down with Pia Silva, founder of No BS Mastery, to break down the “cut the BS” agency model, which uses a paid lead product to build trust fast, shorten timelines, and deliver premium branding and websites in as little as two days.

In this conversation, Pia explains why most agencies get stuck in the “default model,” which is based on free proposals, drawn-out timelines, endless feedback loops, and energy-draining back-and-forth that kills profit and momentum. She shares how compressing the timeline doesn’t reduce value; it increases it by removing the noise and keeping clients from spiraling into design-by-committee.

You’ll also hear Pia’s Lead Product Method (her “Brand Shrink”), how it replaces uncomfortable selling with a clear next step, and why specificity builds more trust (not less!) They unpack practical pricing advice (incremental increases + real market proof), the role of authority content in premium positioning, and why efficiency matters more than ever in a world trained by one-click purchasing and AI-fueled instant gratification.

About Pia Silva

Pia Silva is the founder of No BS Mastery and the co-owner of the branding and website agency Worst of All Design, which she runs with her husband, Steve. She’s known for her no-fluff approach to building profitable, freedom-based service businesses, especially for small agencies that want to deliver better work in less time without sacrificing quality.

Through her training and frameworks, Pia teaches agency owners how to increase value, shorten delivery timelines, sell with clarity, and build authority that attracts premium clients. She’s also the author of the upcoming book Scale Solo, which dives deeper into the model and mindset behind scaling a small, expert-led business.

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Contact Pia Silva | Worst of All Design/No BS Mastery Program:

Website: Worst of All Design
Website: No BS Mastery
Pia’s Scale Solo book
Instagram
LinkedIn: Pia

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Fresh off the UXHI conference, Pua shares her nuanced take on AI, breaking down why even many top leaders in tech and UX design believe AI won’t replace thoughtful design. She lays out the current issues with “AI slop,” the self-licking ice cream cone problem, and why critical thinking, user empathy, and real conversations still beat formulas. Because ultimately, the goal is to create content that builds trust, not volume.

In a world where AI is in all of our thoughts and starting to take root in many of our processes, Pua reminds us that while AI can accelerate workflows, it can’t replicate human creativity, intuition, or integrity. True impact still comes from the designer’s ability to connect emotionally, think critically, and craft real, human-centred experiences.

Resources discussed in this episode:

UXHI Conference
Kajabi

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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This episode dives deep into the art of relationship-based business building. Brandon shares how his career evolved from data migration specialist to holistic nutrition coach to CRM consultant, allowing him to find a unique niche in bridging the gap between technology and humanity.

Pua and Brandon discuss how automation can enhance authenticity when used with intention, and how entrepreneurs can simplify their systems without losing their personal touch. From categorizing contacts and improving email deliverability to common CRM mistakes (like buying contact lists or over-automating), Brandon offers practical tips for building CRM systems that feel personal and purposeful.

This conversation shows how real ROI doesn’t just come from a tool; it comes from nurturing relationships that last. Whether you’re new to CRMs or looking to refine your setup, this conversation will inspire you to create systems that strengthen your business relationships.

About Brandon Drake

Brandon is a relationship-driven CRM consultant and the founder of Healthy Data Guy, where he helps entrepreneurs and business owners leverage customer relationship management systems to enhance genuine human connection. With a unique background in both IT and holistic nutrition, Brandon’s unique approach blends technical expertise with empathy and strategy. His motto: Use CRMs to strengthen human connection in the digital age.

Resources discussed in this episode:

Brandon’s Guide to Choosing the Right CRM

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Contact Brandon Drake | Healthy Data Guy:

Website: HealthyDataGuy.com
Instagram: Healthy Data Guy
Facebook: Healthy Data Guy
Linkedin: Brandon

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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Pua sits down with Alexa Garza, Executive Director of the Texas Center for Higher Education in Prison (TEXCHEP) to talk about the inequities in access to higher education in prisons (and even after release). Alexa shares her own journey as an incarcerated scholar who earned her bachelor’s degree inside and later completed a master’s in business.

She explains the realities facing the 133,000 people incarcerated in Texas, with only 1,500 enrolled in college courses. We talk about gender disparities and why women have historically been a “correctional afterthought.” We also talk about what steps Alexa and TEXCHEP are taking to create better data, more practical campus supports, and second-chance hiring opportunities. Alexa’s overall goal is to help scale access to higher ed, leading people to dignified, goal-aligned careers.

About Alexa Garza

Alexa Garza is the Executive Director of the Texas Center for Higher Education in Prison (TEXCHEP). After earning her undergraduate degree while inside, Alexa was denied graduate school after release. It was this experience that ignited her advocacy for access and equity in correctional education.

Since then, Alexa has collaborated with stakeholders from colleges, corrections facilities, and policymakers to establish statewide guardrails for higher ed in prison and to expand student supports from custody to campus. Alexa later completed her master’s in business and now leads TEXCHEP, advocating for secondary school access and second-chance hiring.

Resources discussed in this episode:

RAND study on correctional education & recidivism (43% lower for participants)

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Contact Alexa Garza | Tex

Website
LinkedIn: Alexa Garza

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Coach Rebecca Misek of Arrow’s Edge Coaching shares how to reframe failure as fuel, process emotions with intention, and build an unshakable life and business. She explains why coaching as a modality creates lasting change, how identity congruence drives momentum, and why community matters. We also cover hiring outstanding talent, scaling with integrity, and cultivating resilience in the face of setbacks.

Rebecca breaks down the difference between mentoring and coaching, highlighting powerful questions and deep listening as engines for durable transformation. She invites leaders to become unshakable by upgrading beliefs, aligning actions with values, and clearing the muddy trails that stall progress across relationships, finances, and operations.

Through vivid client stories, Rebecca shows how removing shame accelerates change, how one belief shift can unlock career moves, and how setting bolder standards can multiply business results. She and host Pua explore the discipline of hiring outstanding contributors, creating containers for accountability, and cultivating a community that reinforces resilience and follow-through.

We close with practical next steps for founders and high achievers who want momentum without burnout: clarify who you are, choose the meaning you assign to challenges, lean on community, and invest in support that keeps you on the trail. Rebecca reminds us that pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional, and with the right guidance, leaders can turn pressure into progress.

About Rebecca Misek

Rebecca Misek is the founder of Arrow’s Edge Coaching and the visionary behind the Unshakable Life Community. A coach, leader, and entrepreneur at heart, she is known for her straight-talk approach, deep listening skills, and ability to help high achievers unlock long-term resilience. With over a decade of experience building organizations, including leading and growing a church from the ground up, Rebecca understands both the triumphs and pitfalls that leaders face when striving to bring their vision to life.

Her coaching journey began more than thirteen years ago, when she discovered that asking powerful questions and holding space for honest exploration produced lasting change in a way traditional mentoring could not. Today, she works with entrepreneurs, executives, and trailblazers to align values with actions, break through limiting beliefs, and build businesses and lives that are sustainable, authentic, and deeply fulfilling. Her core philosophy—that pain is inevitable but suffering is a choice—guides her mission to help others become unshakable, resilient, and fully equipped to thrive.

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Contact Rebecca Misek | Arrows Edge Coaching:

Instagram: Rebecca Misek
Facebook: Rebecca Misek
Linkedin: Rebecca Misek
Email: rebecca@getarrowscoaching.com
LinkedIn: Arrow’s Edge Coaching
Website: Arrow’s Edge Coaching
Instagram: Arrows Edge Coaching
YouTube: Arrow’s Edge Coaching

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In this episode of The Rebel Media Podcast, Pua breaks down why keeping your website updated matters more than ever for business success. Customers now expect fast, mobile-friendly, trustworthy sites that make decisions easy and reflect real, human brands. She explains how outdated websites lose sales even when the product is great, and why speed, credibility, and mobile-first design directly impact your bottom line.

Pua then explores actionable trends to guide your site revamp: bold and simple layouts that reduce overwhelm, prioritizing authenticity over perfection, bigger and cleaner typography, natural-feeling interactive elements, and consistent use of brand colors. She also touches on advanced trends like dark mode options, websites that “remember” user behavior, conversational chat features, personalized experiences, and the growing integration of social commerce.

Looking ahead to 2026, she highlights the importance of voice search, AI-powered customer service, visual search, and sustainability in digital spaces. Pua closes with a call to action for listeners to audit their sites, optimize for mobile speed, simplify content, and measure what matters, all while staying authentic and aligned with their values.

Resources discussed in this episode:

Shopify: https://www.shopify.com
Kajabi: https://app.kajabi.com/r/qfoLZghG/t/43i5otjy

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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In this episode, Pua sits down with Leslie Wingrowich, a former trauma and ICU nurse whose life was forever changed when she was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. Told she would never walk again, Leslie rejected the prognosis and embarked on a relentless journey of self-healing, beginning with diet changes and later uncovering deeper connections between parasites, stress, trauma, and MS.

Leslie opens up about the resilience it took to raise two small children while navigating paralysis, how her medical background shaped her advocacy, and why she believes in the body’s innate ability to heal when given the right tools. She also shares the emotional and spiritual layers of recovery, including suppressed childhood trauma, faith, and the importance of fighting for one’s health.

This conversation highlights not just Leslie’s remarkable recovery, but also her mission to simplify the overwhelming amount of information into accessible resources for others living with MS. From her bestselling book Live Like You’re Not Scared to her step-by-step online course, Leslie is offering hope, practical guidance, and a roadmap for anyone facing what feels like an impossible diagnosis.

About Leslie Wingrowich

Leslie Wingrowich is a former ICU and trauma nurse, author, and health advocate who reversed her multiple sclerosis diagnosis through diet, lifestyle, and holistic healing practices. After being told she would never walk again, Leslie rebuilt her life and now helps others navigate MS and chronic illness by providing practical, step-by-step resources. Her work integrates medical knowledge, personal experience, faith, and an unshakable belief in the body’s ability to heal.
Today, Leslie is the author of Live Like You’re Not Scared, offers a comprehensive online course for those ready to take control of their health, and continues to inspire audiences with her story of courage, grit, and transformation.

Resources discussed in this episode:

Live Like You’re Not Scared by Leslie Wingrowich (Amazon)
Leslie’s Website
Dr. Gabor Maté – Official Website
Ann Boroch: Healing Multiple Sclerosis: Diet, Detox & Nutritional Makeover for Total Recovery
Terry Wahls: The Wahls Protocol: A Radical New Way to Treat All Chronic Autoimmune Conditions Using Paleo Principles

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Contact Leslie Wingrowich:

Website: lesliewingrowich.com
Instagram: @lwingrowich
Facebook: Leslie Wingrowich

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The Wahls Protocol: How I Beat Progressive MS Using Paleo Principles and Functional Medicine

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When it comes to building a website that truly works for your business, design is only part of the equation. In this episode, Pua dives deep into the importance of brand clarity—knowing exactly who you help, what you offer, and how you want to be perceived—before creating any marketing assets. She shares insights from client conversations, why clarity saves time and money, and how it lays the groundwork for consistent, trust-building branding.

Pua also walks through her four-part framework for brand-aligned websites: clarity, messaging, positioning, and visual direction. From identifying your ideal client to refining your brand voice and creating a cohesive visual identity, these steps help ensure every touchpoint—from your website to social media—feels intentional and on-brand. If you’ve ever struggled to communicate your brand’s personality or felt your visuals didn’t quite “click,” this episode will show you how to front-load your process for better results.

Resources discussed in this episode:

Why Storytelling Beats Flashy Design Every Time: The Power of the Brand Wrap
Digital Door Knocking

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

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Pua dives into a topic many business owners dread: outreach. Whether it’s sending cold emails or reconnecting with old clients, outreach often feels awkward, pushy, or even sleazy. But Pua flips that narrative on its head and makes a compelling case for why outreach—done right—is one of the most powerful tools you can use to build a consistent, aligned client pipeline.

She shares the personal mindset shift that finally got her out of the feast-or-famine cycle, and what happened when she started reaching out from a place of service rather than scarcity. You’ll hear how she approaches warm outreach with former clients and professional contacts, how she sends cold emails that don’t feel awkward, and why relationship-building—not pitching—is the key to turning conversations into opportunities.

You’ll also learn how to track your outreach efforts, use social media engagement as a light-touch follow-up, and keep yourself grounded when imposter syndrome or introversion kicks in before a call. If you've been hiding behind content and hoping clients magically appear, this episode is your call to take action—and do it in a way that feels good.

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Transcript

Pualena 00:00

Entrepreneurs who master outreach are the ones who never have to worry about where their next client is coming from, and that kind of confidence changes everything.

Hello and welcome back to The Rebel Media podcast. I'm your host, Pua, and today we are talking about something that is going to make some of you uncomfortable, and that's exactly why we need to talk about it. We're talking about outreach, cold outreach, warm outreach. I kind of like to think about this as digital door knocking. If you think about going door knocking, I have friends who are financial planners, and one of the things that they had to do when they first joined the company is literally go in their neighborhood and go door to door, talking about what they do. If that is not my ultimate nightmare… so when I say digital door knocking, I come from that perspective of… please, anything but this. But listen, I know you're rolling your eyes. I know that you think, I'm not gonna do sleazy sales, so I'm just gonna stop listening to this podcast, but please, please, please, stay with me, because I'm about to share with you some strategies personal stories of recently doing this and really enjoying it and having really, really good business outcomes.

I have to say, I did this recently from a place of desperation, and I was like—listen, this feast or famine in business… we can't be doing this anymore. I cannot be living like this. It is way too stressful, way too much anxiety, it's just if you, you know, right? Like, oh, I'm 100% referral-based. That means everybody loves me, that works with me. No, that means that you don't do any marketing, and you don't do any outreach, and so you don't ever have a wait list or a pipeline to draw from, and if you do, it's an accident, and you have three people coming to you at once, and then you have nobody for six months, and then you're living off of those three projects. You know what I mean, right?

So this, to me, is like the forgotten hustle and the only hustle that I've done recently that actually made a difference, and I see the importance of it, and I see the benefit of it so much now. To be honest, I never, ever did this before because I was scared of it. I didn't want to do it. And when you come and show up on these calls from a place of building genuine relationships and allowing that to fill your pipeline with quality leads, you actually create a network of people who genuinely want to refer business to you. It's insane, I know. It sounds totally crazy, and I wouldn't have believed me, so if you're out there and you're like, I don't even want to listen to the rest of this, I know what you're going to say and I don't want to do it, please just hear me out, because I was you. And to be honest, sometimes I still am, and I know that you don't want to hear this, but sitting behind your computer hoping for clients to magically find you is not a strategy, and it's something that I did for years. So don't feel bad if that's what you're doing and you can't be passive. This is a very active experience, and an active activity, and it's, it's the only thing that really moved the needle for us when it came to filling our pipeline. Because for so long, I was like—Oh, if we post on social media regularly, people will come. If we start sending newsletters, we'll get referrals. We did all those things, and they're great. There is value to that. But those do not lead to leads. They just don't do it right away. And so we're going to talk about good outreach and ending the feast or famine cycles and the hoping and praying for referrals, and really talk about taking control of your lead generation, because this is what I've learned.

Pualena 04:48

Entrepreneurs who master outreach are the ones who never have to worry about where their next client is coming from, and that kind of confidence changes everything. Okay, so we're going to talk about what outreach actually is and what it isn't. Because I think the reason why most entrepreneurs avoid it is because they have this image of being a sleazy salesperson, or car sales, no offense, car sales people. You know that there's a stigma, so I'm just going to throw that out there as a relatable piece. You don't want to sell to your friends, so warm outreach feels like it's not on the table, but unless you're doing like, copy and paste, pitches like a mass BCC to your entire contact list in email. That's not outreach. That's spam.

Real outreach is about building relationships, and the sooner you understand that, the sooner you'll feel good about doing this activity. It's about offering value before you ask for anything. It's about asking questions and actively trying to listen to what they have to say, learn who they are as people, learn about their business. Just be a helpful human who happens to run a business, not be a walking sales pitch, and that is going to change everything for you. I promise.

My biggest fear for warm outreach, actually for cold outreach too, but especially to people that already knew me, is I was afraid that they would see me as only reaching out when I wanted them to buy something. And I think that awareness, in and of itself can kind of help you to not show up that way. If you have that awareness, you're not going to show up with—What can I get from this person energy. But what I think you don't always realize is, that's not the only option. You don't have to just jump on a call and sell. You can jump on a call and say, What can I give this person? How can I serve this person? How can I help this person? And on so many of my calls recently where I actually sold something, people would say, “Oh my gosh, business is going great. I'm struggling with a couple things. But, you know, it's overall, it's, it's pretty good right now.” And I'm, like, “That's awesome.” I'm curious, and I promise and I'll even say, because I'm overly conscious of this, and it might even not be a great idea to say it, but I'm just going to be honest. I'll say, “I promise you, I'm not trying to sell any services to or anything. I'm just genuinely curious what, those things are that you're struggling with, and if I can give you advice or guidance or a referral or help you in any way, if you're willing to share with me, I'm just curious, what are those challenges you're having?” And a lot of times, people will be like, “Well, actually, that's why I was really excited to talk to you, because I looked at your website before the call, and I actually don't like my website.” And I'm like, “I swear I did not ask you to jump on this call to sell you a website.” And I'll even try not to sell them anything. I'll be like, “Oh my god, yeah, let's take a look at it, and if I can give you any tips on things that you can adjust that are probably really quick and easy and might make a big difference, I'm happy to share those with you.” And I swear to you, they're like, “Oh my god, yeah, you know what, I kind of just want to hand it off, though. I don't really want to do this myself.”

Pualena 08:23

So think about what it is that you offer, and how you can show up on that call from a place of service and helpfulness and kindness and genuine curiosity, and I think you would be surprised how often those calls actually turn into people who are already interested in your business. So I want to talk to you about this approach before I talk to you about sourcing the people for these calls, because I think that mindset alone cannot just shift you out of fear of showing up like a salesperson or feeling scammy, but actually shift you into a place of—I'm actually super excited to do these calls, and I have to remind myself of that constantly, because I'll wake up, I do my calls on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and I'll see a, you know that happened this morning, I see a Tuesday full of calls, and I'm like—oh, I don't want to, but I have to remember and, like, remind myself of this, and then I get a little bit excited, but I will say before every single call, I'm anxious a little bit, and I'm a little bit nervous, and I'm a little bit praying that they don't show up. And I hate to admit that, because every person that shows up, with very few exceptions, I have a really fun and great conversation with, but there is just that, like, introverted part of me that's like, “Oh, I really don't want to talk to somebody today, you know.” So if you're feeling that, just know that you're normal.

Pualena 09:56

Okay, so we're going to talk a little bit about the types of outreach, how to do them, some strategies that you might follow, anything that you glean from this that you're excited about, that you feel inspired to try, go for it, take it or leave it. I'm just going to share with you some things that worked for me.

So we'll start with warm outreach, because this is really where you want to be spending most of your relationship building energy. There is already a relationship established, so it will be a little bit easier of an in these can come from past clients, colleagues at a job that you may still be at, or recently left if you know you left on good terms, people in your network, in your networking groups, your social media connections, even friends and family, but those I'm going to put in a different bucket for now, so we're just going to do warm professional contacts.

Here's what most people get wrong about the warm outreach sphere. It's very common for people to reach out only when you need something, and I get it because you're probably listening to this and you really need your next client to come in the door, and so you're like—well, I'm already in that place, and I absolutely get that. But what you're going to have to do is pull back from that a little bit and show up on these calls knowing that this is long game relationship building. So warm outreach may not lead to immediate leads, although it might, but you can't really expect that. So I just want to make that clarification. And when you do set up your process for this, you want to think about doing this regularly.

Pualena 11:47

So here's a strategic approach. You want to think about some kind of regular cadence to check in. So you could do it monthly, you could do it quarterly. And this is not your first touch point. And honestly, maybe none of your touch points should ever be to sell anything or to ask for referrals. This is about you, checking in to see how they're doing. Ask them about their business, their family, their travels, their latest projects, and celebrate their wins and offer support if they're going through challenges. Make it all about them on that first touch point. Trust me on this. If you want a template, here's an option. Feel free to jot this down.

Hey, [name of person] I was just thinking about you and wondering how… maybe you need to talk about their business or their services, how whatever is going, or I saw your post about (if they posted something on social media), or I saw you were in maybe you went to Japan. We went to Japan in January. We had such a good time. I'd love to hear how you… like something that shows that you're interested in something that they are up to, and personalize it. They might feel like this is a little bit random, but it can also feel really high touch. And if it helps, always put yourself in their shoes. And let's say, you bought a house, and you have a realtor, and you haven't been in touch for a little while, and then all of a sudden, they reach out, and they're like, “Hey, I hope you're doing well. How's little Jimmy doing? I saw your post. I can't believe he’s starting kindergarten. That's so crazy. It's been so long since I've seen you guys. I hope everything's well. I just wanted to check in and say—Hi, I'm here,” you know, something like that.

And even if they're like, “Oh, that's random, I bet they need clients.” It's still really nice to hear from them, honestly, and that first touch point, making it all about them is such an important first step, okay.

Pualena 14:06

The next touch point I call the value first follow up. When you follow up with past clients or connections, you have to lead with value. And this really only works for warm, but distant contacts if you've sent that first message first. Maybe there's like, an article that you saw that's related to their business or this group of people, right? Like, if I have my past clients, they all have websites that were built by us. So maybe it's something about AI in the website world, or a new way of doing email newsletters, or why email newsletter letters and blogs are so important to do regularly, or something. So find something of value and share it… “Hey, it's been a while since we worked together. I saw this article. I thought it might really be beneficial for you, or I thought it might be helpful. Feel free to check it out. I really geeked out on it. If you have any questions, feel free to shoot me back an email, or here's my calendar. We can even book a time to chat. That'd be cool.”

Next the strategic social engagement. Most people don't do this. I don't even do it regularly, even though I know it's important. But if you can keep a little like just, just a little social touch on people that you maybe follow on social media, give them a like, give them a comment, “Oh my gosh. I can't believe little Emma won first place in her Judo tournament. She's so big now,” you know these little things, congratulate people when they're sharing wins on social media. It's that, that little touch. It's not an important one and if you want to not do it, it's not going to break this process, but it can absolutely help. Okay, it's like a little sub. It's like we did one, two, and this is like 2.3 and now we're going to go number three.

Pualena 16:04

Okay, so when you get them on a call, what we want to do is come at this from a place of … you're not and you like, catch up, ask them all the questions, don't, don't make it all about you, but around the end of the call, if it does get to you, the “ask” should not be, “Let me know if you need anything.” The “ask” should be, “Here's what I'm here's what I'm up to now, we've kind of changed some services. We're really excited about it. If you ever hear of anybody that might need a new website, I'd love an introduction.” That's it. And you know what? If they want to hire you, they're going to ask you right then and there. You're like, “Actually, I was wondering, if you … I've been thinking about launching this new thing. I need a new page built. Like, what would it look like for you to help me with that?” So if they want something from you, they're going to find a way to ask for it. But they're curious, right? They're not if, if they feel like you're trying to sell them something right away, they might back off. But if you ask about them, you give them value, you offer to help, and then they ask, you never have to ask for the sale. If they don't ask, they might give you an introduction right away. “Hey, actually, I know this woman who just opened a food truck, and she was telling me that she needs a website, or she built it herself, and she hates it and she's having a lot of trouble. Do you mind if I group text you guys and introduce you?” And if not, again, this is a long game, “Hey, yeah, definitely. I'll let you know if I hear of anybody, but it was really great catching up.

Okay, three great outcomes. I'll let you know, not right now, but maybe later, an immediate introduction or an immediate sale, because they themselves need something.

Pualena 17:58

Okay, all right, let's go to cold outreach. I like to call this cold outreach that doesn't suck. Okay, reaching out to people you don't know. Honestly, this one is easier for me, and I do, like the first touch point is by email. I'm not calling them. I feel like I would not be able to do that. That's just a whole other level of scary… email is fine if they ignore me, I don't care, but you can still be strategic about it, and I've had quite a few responses from cold outreach emails, because when it's done right, it's one of the fastest ways to grow your business. It's one of the only ways that you can, for free, expand beyond your current network and leverage people's networks that you are not a part of yet. And the key is, even though it's called cold outreach, you can't make it feel cold. You have to warm it up right away. Okay? And one of the most important parts of this is research. Before you reach out to anybody, you must do your homework and like, five to ten minutes of research per person or per group, or, you know, however you're filtering through these people and however you're finding them. I found mine through a networking group that I'm a part of, which, thankfully, I'm able to kind of leverage that as a resource and reach out to people from an industry specific standpoint. So I'm reaching out to other designers because they're great referral partners or trades or specific industries I personally am able to help really well—coaches, life coaches, business coaches, fitness coaches, fitness facilities, martial arts, schools, trades, right? So some of these are some of the industries that I was personally doing some cold outreach to.

This isn't stalking, mind you. This is preparation, okay, very different. Please don't stalk your leads. So again for this, never, ever, ever, ever ever ever, ever lead with what you want, just like warm outreach, you are leading with what you can give. Okay, so when you send these emails, you'll want to include, maybe a compliment about their compliment about their recent work, a valuable resource related to something that they've shared, an introduction to someone who could help them. I don't know that one. It might be case by case, but I found that to actually be really helpful. Like, “Hey, you want to start a podcast? I actually have a really great podcast editor. You know, I saw that you shared a social media post saying that you are one of your goals for the year starting a podcast. I found you through this networking group, and I actually know of a really great podcast editor. Let me know if you want an introduction, and at the very least, I'd love to know when your show launches, because I'm really interested in what you do?” Like something you know, and I will say, okay, so people have mastered this to the point where, if it's not really genuine, it's very obvious. Think about the last time you logged into LinkedIn and you got this like, “Hey, I saw your profile. I think it's really great that you're helping three to four person businesses help build their websites,” or, you know, whatever that is.

So really take the time to make this feel genuine and authentic. And I will also say it won't always feel that way, and it's okay send the email. Don't try to make it perfect. You can ask your friends or your colleague or your assistant, like, “Does this feel warm and genuine?” And they might give you some feedback, but don't overthink it… like the point of this, and this is a numbers game. Hey, we reached out to over 100 contacts, and I got 23 calls, which they continue to roll in. So it's not like, it's, that's like the be all, end all metric, but it's, it's a numbers game. You're gonna get ignored. So do your best. Lead with value, but don't overthink it. Send the emails.

Pualena 22:32

Here's what’s really important? Do not pitch your services in this email. Do not ask for anything. Just be genuinely helpful and show that you did some research to learn who they are. You're not just copy and pasting the same template over and over and over again. Yes, you want to do some follow up. Okay? Follow up. Maybe a week later, maybe a month later, maybe maybe two months later, and then end it. Okay. If they have ignored you three times over two months they don't want to talk to you. Leave them alone. Do not keep hounding them. Okay. So that's email, and I like to get people on a call. I don't really like to keep it in email. I don't think that's the best way to build relationships or get to know someone, but that is totally up to you.

So one of the calls to action in my first email, and I know I said, don't ask for anything, but the one thing I will ask for is to just book a quick like, virtual coffee chat to get to know each other. And again, I come from a place of like, “I'd love to learn more about your business, to see how I might be able to refer business to you,” and just to see what other people are up to and again, most people who respond, actually, I think everybody that responded booked a call, and a lot of people didn't respond at all to the email, but they booked the call, so either way, I talked to them.

Okay, so here's something that I… you might be wondering about social media outreach, and somebody, actually, not somebody, many people have said, over the course of the last couple of years, “Oh my gosh, you really need to be on LinkedIn. That's a gold mine.” I'm going to be honest with you, I have yet to figure out LinkedIn. Kelly is helping me to… we'll post articles, and we'll engage with people, and I think my LinkedIn has been dead for so long that it might take some time for us to see any traction or engagement. But people swear by LinkedIn. I get a lot of spam, so anybody that sends me a message on LinkedIn, it's really hard for me to not want to ignore it, but I think maybe after a while of fixing our algorithm, maybe that'll change. Anyway, same rules apply if you're doing any kind of social media outreach. Lead with value.

I just think DMs in general can feel just a little spammy, but do you, and I would say, follow this framework, ask about them, give them something of value, don't pitch your services and try to build a genuine relationship. Okay?

Pualena 25:23

And there are some things that actually… like, if you ask someone a question that we want people… and this actually works for, like, if you're if you're crafting an email sequence, like a welcome sequence, if somebody opts into your email list, and you can ask a question that solicits a response, that is a great indication that it has gone from a cold to a warm relationship, because if somebody's taking the time to respond, they either appreciated your message and and value that you had to share and genuinely want to connect, and especially on LinkedIn or email, they are feeling compelled to reciprocate that relationship, and you don't want to let that go stale, because that does not last forever. It's like somebody reaching out and wanting to shake your hand, and you can reach out and shake it back, and then they're like, “Cool. They see me.” It's like at a concert, if, let's say you're I was just watching the Backstreet Boys in Vegas at the sphere. And, I mean, I wasn't, but I was watching videos of it, and, like, there's a video where they are close to the audience, and they're kind of like, making eye contact with people in the audience and sort of having that engaging moment. That's something that if you're sitting in the front row, and I don't go up to you and say “hi,” or put my hand out for you to shake it, or, like, make eye contact and say, “Hey, thanks for coming,” like, that's going to make your day. But if you don't capitalize on that engagement, it's not going to be back again, right? Like the Backstreet Boys can't go up to the edge of the stage two hours after the show's done and make that same connection with that person that's not even there anymore, right? So timing is everything,

Pualena 27:21

All right. I am looking at the messy notes that I jotted down. Okay, here's something about outreach that a lot of people don't think about until after the fact. And while that's not going to totally kill your business, it's a lot easier to set this up before you start doing this, and that is a CRM—a Customer Relationship Manager.

You want to track your outreach efforts, and it does not have to be fancy. There are actual CRM platforms. I recommend you get one eventually. But if you're just starting out, and if you're just starting your outreach, a spreadsheet works. Okay, here's what to track.

Who you reached out to, where you found them, when you reached out to them, obviously their contact information, what type of outreach, warm, cold, their response, if any, next follow up date and any notes about their business, their interests, anything that would be helpful for when you contact that person next, or when that that communication back and forth starts to happen, because if you start doing this a lot, unless you're like a superhuman, you're going to forget things. And it's really meaningful when you reach out to somebody again and you're like, “Hey, it's been a while since we last chatted, I was wondering how your puppy's doing? He must be getting so big now.” And they're like, ”Oh my god, you remembered that I had a puppy?” Those little things are so key to helping people to feel like you actually care. And the other thing is like you actually have to care. Okay? So you can write all these things down, and you can fake it all you want, but people feel whether you're genuine or not, so please actually care or don't do it.

Okay. So you have homework, and this is going to be the first step in your outreach. If you haven't done this before, please be open-minded. Please give it a try. I think you'll really love it. And, yeah, okay.

Pualena 29:30

Step one, make a list of 20 people in your network, 20 that is so small, like after doing this for so long, I would say start with 50. But I want it to be like super approachable. So start with 20. But if you're an overachiever, go to 50 of people in your network, whatever that means for you, who you haven't talked to in a while, past clients, former colleagues, people you met at events, social media connections, anybody who engages with your content, your email list subscribers. Just make a list of 20 people, choose five of them and send five personalized check in messages. Do not pitch, do not ask, just genuine interest in how they're doing. Okay, just do that.

Now, your next challenge, should you choose to accept it, is then identify 10 potential cold outreach prospects. These should be businesses or individuals who fit your ideal client profile. Okay? And a lot of times that's the difference between warm and cold. Cold—you want to be more targeted with your outreach because you have less, you have nothing to kind of ride on when you're sending that first message. Spend five to ten minutes researching each one. Look at their website, their social media posts your recent their recent achievements, challenges that they've posted about, their articles on LinkedIn, whatever. For each of those ten prospects, identify one specific way you could add value, articles, recommendations, potential referrals or connections, compliments about their work, whatever that is, okay and send your first five cold outreach messages. Don't forget, lead with value, reference your research and keep it conversational. You can use AI, but to be quite honest, people recognize that really quickly. So have ChatGPT draft your outreach, but you need to go in and heavily edit it to make it sound like you. Okay.

Pualena 31:41

Now when you're doing your bathroom activities or when you're scrolling on social media, start to get in a habit of engaging with accounts that match your target audience. Spend 15 minutes at minimum, but no more than 30. Get off the scroll and do meaningful engagement again, make it, make it genuine and not a copy and paste. Okay.

Finally, think about setting up your tracking system, even if it's just a simple spreadsheet, it's so important, and truly, if you are ready to build a pipeline and you're not ready to invest in ads yet, this is where you need to start. Believe me, I did not want to do it. I am here to give you a little nudge to tell you that if I can do it, you can do it. And please let me know how it goes. Reach out, shoot me a message. Go to our website, fill out the contact form. Find us on Instagram, RBL Media, let me know if this was valuable for you, how it's going. Please, please, please, we want to celebrate all of your wins with you, and we will talk to you again soon.

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View Details

In this episode, Pualena shares why investing in a high-end website or brand package too early in your business journey can backfire. She explains that many entrepreneurs rush to spend money on design before they've truly validated their offer, leading to wasted resources and unmet expectations. Through her own experience and real client stories, she highlights the importance of having a proven product or service before investing in anything beyond the basics.

She walks listeners through an 8-step framework that prioritizes testing, feedback, and refinement over assumptions. Whether you're offering a service, launching a course, or building software, your focus should be on creating a minimum viable product (MVP), getting real-world feedback, and proving your ability to deliver consistent results. A beautiful website may impress at first glance, but it won’t convert if your foundation isn’t solid.

For those in the growth phase, Pualena offers a reality check: Are you truly ready to scale, or are you hoping a polished website will solve deeper gaps in your business? She encourages listeners to know their numbers, understand their audience, and confidently stand behind their offer before making a big investment. Whether you're ready now or just getting there, this episode is packed with insights to help you build intentionally and avoid costly missteps.

Resources discussed in this episode:

Markup Chrome Extension

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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In this value-packed episode of the RBL Media Podcast, Pua explores why storytelling—not flashy design—is the key to building impactful digital platforms. She introduces listeners to the “Brand Wrap,” a strategic branding session used with every RBL Media client to uncover their core brand story and ideal customer at a deeper level.

You’ll learn the five-chapter framework that powers the Brand Wrap: from deeply defining your client (the true hero of your brand), to positioning your business as the guide, crafting a tactical impact strategy, building community movements, and defining success through sustained impact. Pua shares behind-the-scenes examples, reflections on agency growth, and the importance of integrity in client relationships. If you’re tired of “just having a website” and want a brand platform that works hard for your business, this episode is for you!

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

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Peter Russell, founder and CEO of Kindling, joins me for a deeply insightful conversation about building one of the most transformative online learning experiences for young adults aged 18–29. In this episode, we explore the intention behind Kindling, a video-based mentorship platform that blends soft and hard skills through storytelling, unscripted group sessions, and real-time transformation. Peter walks us through how the program fosters self-awareness, character development, networking savvy, emotional intelligence, and interviewing skills—all delivered through the lens of relatable young adults navigating real challenges.

The episode goes behind the scenes of the Kindling filming process, conducted in a Philadelphia warehouse during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic. Peter shares how 12 diverse young adults became the heart of the curriculum and how their growth mirrors what participants will experience themselves. We also explore Peter’s family legacy and the inspiring story of his grandfather’s journey from Sicily to the U.S., a narrative of resilience, generosity, and mentorship that seeded Peter’s vision for Kindling. With a focus on timeless wisdom, practical journaling, and the science of human connection, this episode is a must-listen for educators, mentors, and anyone invested in helping the next generation thrive.

About Peter Russell

Peter Russell is the founder and CEO of Kindling, a personal and professional development platform built to help young adults cultivate self-awareness, resilience, and confidence through real-world mentorship. Drawing on 30 years as a senior executive in media and a lifetime of mentoring experience, Peter created Kindling to address the gap between traditional education and the skills needed to succeed in modern life. Inspired by a legacy of service, compassion, and grit from his grandfather’s immigrant story, Peter has designed Kindling to ignite inner transformation—one young adult at a time.

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
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Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Contact Peter Russel | Kindling:

Website: gokindling.com
Instagram: @gokindling
Instagram: @mentorPete
LinkedIn: Peter Russell
LinkedIn (Company): KindlingCo

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Get ready for a powerful conversation with story coach and podcast expert Seth Donlin. In this episode, Pua and Seth dive into why storytelling is one of the most underrated tools in business—and how the right kind of story can make all the difference in your marketing. Forget trying to impress with big, flashy moments; Seth explains why relatable, real stories are what actually connect with people and build trust. With his background in journalism, marketing, and creative writing, he breaks down how storytelling can elevate your brand, your message, and your relationships.

Seth also introduces the idea of “active guesting,” his proven approach to podcast appearances that goes way beyond just showing up. From preparing your talking points to naturally weaving in your offer, aka “seeding” your call to action, he shows you how to turn every conversation into a valuable connection.

Plus, you’ll hear some golden tips on networking without the awkward elevator pitch, how to show up with authenticity, and why platforms like LinkedIn are a must for building your personal brand. Whether you're growing a business, looking to get booked on more shows, or just want to get better at sharing your story, this episode is packed with insight you can put to use right away.

About Seth Donlin

Seth helps entrepreneurs and executives transform podcast guesting from a mere visibility play into a strategic tool for brand and business growth. Getting booked is just the first step. Showing up, engaging audiences and turning listeners into paying clients? That’s where the real opportunity lies.

Seth was born a skinny, bookish, Irish-American kid in a tiny town in central Massachusetts where people lived for corn, cows and kicking ass on Friday night. Unfortunately for him, I wasn't all that good at the latter and didn’t know much about the other two. As you can imagine, he moved away as soon as possible.

That led him across the American West, into journalism and, eventually, back east, where he founded Boston’s largest weekly newspaper. Seth has spent the 25 years since telling stories for and about elected officials, government agencies, and brands big and small – in print, on TV & radio, and in front of thousands on stage.

Through it all, he saw one thing clearly: Stories have the power to grow brands. And with the continued growth of podcasting, podcast guesting – when done right – is one of the best ways to tell your stories to audiences already primed to see you as an expert. Today, Seth help coaches, consultants and subject matter experts skip the trial and error and turn podcast interviews into high-impact, business opportunities.

Resources discussed in this episode:

Story Brand - Donald Miller
Expert Guest Accelerator Program
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Contact Seth Donlin:

Website: sethdonlin.com
Instagram: @seth.donlin
LinkedIn: Seth Donlin

Transcript

Seth 00:00

It's similar to networking. I mean, I tell whenever I'm, like, mentoring junior colleagues, people reach out to me from upcoming college graduates, recent college graduates. They're like, I want to get into your field, blah, blah, blah, you know, they ask for tips. And it’s a very common thing, and we start talking about networking. One of the things that I always say is, I said, look, go to a networking event and spend as little time, people are always like, I gotta get my elevator pitch down, and I gotta, like, do should I should my business cards be like this? Should they be like that? Do I even need business cards now? Do I just have, like, a is there an app that for, like, sending virtual but I'm like, look, don't even worry about any of that stuff. Show up to the networking event. Go up to the people and say, what do you do? And spend all your time talking about them.

Pualena 00:53

All right, here we are. Seth Donlin, amazing to meet you. Thanks for being here.

Seth 00:58

Thanks Pua, I'm excited to be here and excited to get into to chatting with you and your audience.

Pualena 01:04

Me too. I've spent a little bit of time looking through your website and your resources, and so I've been looking forward to this all day. I don't know, where are you? Where are you located?

Seth 01:16

I’m in Northern California. I'm just a little I'm about an hour north of San Francisco up in the wine country.

Pualena 01:21

Nice, not too shabby. We are not too far apart.

Seth 01:26

No, no. It's a great it's, it's, yeah, it's a wonderful place to live.

Pualena 01:30

Absolutely. Awesome. Well, I it's, it's just hit afternoon here. It's about 1pm, we're in Hawaii, so normally I'm talking away on the other side of the world, where they're like, it's almost 10 o'clock, so it's nice to know it’s probably still daylight for you.

Seth 01:44

When I was, like, seven or eight, I lived in whole I partially lived in Hawaii for a couple of years. My mom and stepdad lived there. I went to school in on the East Coast and lived with my dad in Massachusetts during the school year, but during, you know, all the breaks, including summer and stuff like that, I would, I would be with my mom. So for that like, year and a half, my stepfather is a retired airline pilot, and so he was flying out of Honolulu, and we were living, so we were living there for on the opposite side of the island, but we were living there for like, a year and a half or two years.

Pualena 02:15

Nice. So you had a warm holiday season.

Seth 02:18

Exactly. it was great, you know, eat papayas from the tree in the yard, walk down. We weren't too we weren't on the beach or anything, but we weren't too far, you know, not from a beach that you'd hang out on, but like, enough of a beach that you could get out to and get out into the water. And it was pretty shallow. The coral was pretty close to the surface, so I could snorkel around. And there was a channel, a shipping channel, cut through the coral, and, you know, the water was nice and clear, but not clear enough that you could see to the bottom of the shipping channel. So is it like a seven, eight year old kid? That channel scared me, because I could see the bottom, and then I'd get out to the shipping channel and it would it was like, oh, it's the deep blue. My parents would tease me about it being the deep blue, and I would never want to swim over that to get to the coral on the other side. So I was like, in this, you know, penned in by the shipping channel. It was fun, though I used to love it.

Pualena 03:10

That’s awesome memories that will last forever, for sure.

Seth 03:15

Absolutely.

Pualena 03:16

Well, share with me how you got from swimming in the shipping channel to the coaching that you do today.

Seth 03:25

Yeah, well, you know, I have been telling stories, I mean, we all have, right? We all grew up. Grow up. We're telling stories. We're begging our parents to tell us stories, or older siblings or whatever, to tell us stories, teachers, everybody, story, story, give me more stories, and then we're telling them, right? We're making up things. We're telling our our parents about, about our, you know, friend, the pink gorilla that we were playing with, or whatever. You know, we're always imagination and stories. But that, for me, that carried over into a college where I studied creative writing and, you know, into my early career as a journalist and as a, as a marketer and a community relations person, where I'd be getting up in in front of, you know, live crowds and and speaking to people about projects that my company was working on, or I was working in real estate development for for a while, not doing the development, but doing the community relations around it. And it all just involved telling stories and interacting with people and getting people excited about the things that what I was excited about, or that I was being paid to be excited about. And you know, that has that's been a through line in my work. And nowadays, what I do is I actually help people tell their stories better. I'm a story coach, and I am a podcast guest coach, helping people that are doing what I'm doing right now, being a guest on a podcast be better guests, and a big part of that is learning how to effectively use story, whether that's sourcing the stories like. Right. Where do you get your stories from, choosing the right story for the right particular lesson you're trying to tell and for the right audience that you're speaking to. And then, you know, how do you craft a good story? How do you deliver a good story? How do you lead into the story and come out of the story? And so, you know, my work is all wrapped up in story, which, which I love, because I love stories. So I'm a happy man.

Pualena 05:27

Love that. Yeah, it's so important. And I love, I am a big fan of you're either gonna love this or hate this. So we can, we can dive into whichever way this leads you. But Story Brand, thumbs up, thumbs down, thumbs sideways.

Seth 05:42

I mean, it's pretty, you know, seminal, kind of iconic in in the work that I do and I don't, it's been a while since I read. I've read it a couple times because, you know, he wrote it and then he updated it for and I can't remember what it was a 15 year anniversary or 20 year anniversary, or whatever it was, but I read it again at that time, but it's been a little while now. But I can't really, I can't honestly say there was much that I much, if anything, that I disagreed with in that. I mean, there might be some stuff that I would go deeper into, you know, areas that personally fascinate me, and I think my other people might find fascinating that he didn't go into as deeply. But, you know, that's the nature of writing a book like that. I mean, you, I mean, you know, if you, if you drill down deeply into everything that you talked about in a book like that, the book would be, you know, this thick. Nobody would buy it or read it. So, you know, that's not a, that's not a real criticism of that, of that book at all.

Pualena 06:45

Yeah, awesome. Well, I'm a, I'm a big fan of utilizing storytelling, yeah, for, I mean, we're, I build websites, and so a lot of the work that I do with storytelling is around pulling out that story in a way that retains people on in like a scrolling experience, which is just one way of millions of ways that we use stories every day in our business. So I'm I've been looking forward to talking to you for a long time, because I do love that framework, and I'm curious, you know, what are some tips if somebody's listening to this and they have not yet created that conscious awareness around storytelling. How might they start to create stories in a way that helps them to build their business?

Seth 07:30

Well, I think the first challenge is getting past the idea that I think there's a, I think there's a, you know, two or three big challenges that people have mental kind of mental blocks that people have around storytelling. And people either have, you know, some people have none of them, luckily, but most people have some combination of, like, two or three of these. And the first one is that, you know, like, I'm not a good storyteller. I don't know how to tell stories, right? And I think, you know, we essentially already touched on this. We all grew up as kids telling stories. Nobody. I mean, I guess there was a famous, you know, like, sociological experiment where they where they took a bunch of orphan babies and then gave them no, like, touch or love or attention or something. And I guess maybe, maybe they didn't get any stories. But like everybody else in the world, we all got stories growing up. We all told stories growing up. So, you know, I was just saying to somebody yesterday, the day before, you're a storyteller. You know how to tell stories. You can tell you're a good storyteller. You may just be really rusty. It's like riding a bike. You may have ridden your bike a lot as a kid, and then maybe you haven't done it for 10 or 15 years. But that doesn't mean you don't know how to ride a bike. You'll get on, you'll be shaky. It'll take you a little while to get back to where you were as a kid, and maybe you don't get there because you don't invest the time to get there, but that's fine. That's a valid choice, right? But the point is, is, if you decide you want to be a good bike rider, again, that's not a heavy lift. You just need to invest a little practice into it. And it's the same thing with stories, right? If you want to be a good storyteller, again, you will be a good storyteller, and you'll be a good storyteller without a lot of without a tremendous amount of effort, it's just going to require that you tell stories, right? You practice it. So, you know, you want to get good at the piano, you got to play the piano. You want to be good at telling stories. You have to tell stories. So that's the first one. I think the second one is that people have this hang up that stories, effective stories in like business, storytelling, or, you know, overall inspirational storytelling, even if it's not business, let's see you're in a nonprofit or politics, and you're trying to inspire people to, like toward some movement or something, right? And we. See so many things. You know, Story Brand is not an example of this type of book, but right there's, there's tons as entrepreneurs and business owners, business professionals, even if we don't own the business, many of us, we go out, we buy books like, oh, here's a book on sales, here's a book on marketing, here's a book on leadership or whatever, right? And many of these like leadership and marketing and sales books. They're written by Olympic champions, world-class, like MMA fighters or something. You know, I'm horrible with names, but this man's name always sticks in my mind. So I always, I always, name drop him. Jocko Willink, who is a, you know, big MMA, but, well, he's a big BJJ, MMA guy, but he was a high level Seal. He was a Seal officer, and he led all the Seals in Iraq, I believe. And he has this great book, right? So then we read these books, and we're like, Well, I don't know. I never went to the Olympics. I never led all the Seals in Iraq. What am I going to tell? What kind of story do I have to tell? Right? I haven't fall, I didn't climb Everest and then fall off and get stuck in a crevice and have to chop my leg off and crawl back to base camp and, you know, rescue four orphans along the way, and yada yada yada, right? So we become kind of intimidated by this idea that, like, well, I, you know, I have a story that I can tell, but that it's not a real story. It's not that type of story. It's not a business story, it's not an inspiring story, right? And the reality is, though, I mean, those make great stories, but let's, let's be honest, they're not relatable stories. I mean, I, you know, there's, I can relate to Jocko Willink on some levels. He's a BJJ guy. I'm a BJJ guy. Like, there's things I can relate to him with. I cannot relate to his career. That's kind of alien to me, right? Intellectually, I get it emotionally like lived experience. No, I don't. I have no frame of reference for that. And I really, and I was a competitive swimmer, and so, you know, I could, I could read a book written by an Olympic swimmer, and there would be commonality there. But when they start talking about their level of what they were doing to compete at that level, they're going to lose me again. It's not relatable. And so one of the things that I work on with my clients and my programs, is that impressive and inspiring. That's great. If you've got it, then absolutely use it. But what you really want to be focusing on is relatable. Because if I can tell you a relatable story, right? If I can tell you which I can if I can tell you a story about picking up my my daughter at school, to take her to swim practice, and I can relate that to business. And I don't mean I just want to take us. I want to stop for a second. And what I don't mean is one of those I was waiting in line to pick up my daughter at school, and the parent next to me was getting agitated and honking its horn. And it made me realize that the way you have to market is… right? And it's like, like, I've learned some great life lesson sitting in line because somebody honked. It's like, yeah, yes, he did. That's crazy, but if you can use that story to illustrate or reinforce a point, well, that is a really good use of story, right? So one of the things that I think, and in, and I'm, I apologize, I'm kind of like wandering off your question of like…

Pualena 13:39

No, it’s fantastic.

Seth 13:40

What are, what are the things that that you know people hold people back, or what do they need to learn to get into story? But when I guess this is actually related, because I would say that the third point is that you really have to to get comfortable with two key ideas. One idea is that you have a unique voice, right? And like, you know, you're a web designer, I'm sure that you're an amazing web designer, but there's lots of amazing web designers out there in the world, right? And you may have something that you do slightly better than your competition, and then they have things that they do that slightly better than you do, right? And ultimately, the people are going to do business with you because of you. I mean, hopefully you're price competitive, and your offers are in such a way and say, you know, so on and so forth. But like, when it boils down to it really, they have lots of choices of people that they can go to. They're going to end up doing business with you because they like you, something about you and your business makes them feel comfortable. And that ultimately boils down to our voice, who we are, how authentic we're, how authentically we are communicating ourselves to our audience, to our potential clients. And that can be very frightening. Because it's revealing who you are to strangers. Is a vulnerable exercise. You open yourself up to rejection, and people hate and desperately fear rejection, right? Because, as we were evolving as a species, and we lived in small, tight knit groups, if you pissed everybody in your small, tight knit group off, and they were like, yes, see ya. You wandered off into the wilderness and died alone because humans didn't do well outside of the small, tight knit group, right? So we have evolved to really be aware of not alienating people and making sure everybody's comfortable with us and we're okay, and opening yourself up and revealing things about you and potentially, you know, facing rejection hits at a real deep level within us, so this real survival level, right? So you need to do the work. Some people need to do more work on it than others, but you need to do the work getting comfortable with my superpower, you know, is my voice. My the thing that's going to make me stand out from my competitors is as much who I am as what I can offer in my in my offer suite, right? Because my offer suite is probably pretty competitive with everybody else's offer suite. And you know, the flip side of that is, not only do you have to be comfortable with your voice, but you have to be comfortable with the fact that your voice or your message is naturally going to alienate some of the audience, not your audience. Your audience is going to love what you say. But, the larger audience, the public, at large, a sizable chunk, probably the majority of the people, are going to be alienated or or at least, are going to be totally uninterested in whatever you have to say. And some of them are literally going to be alienated. They might get angered, they might be hurt, they might whatever by what it is that you're saying the way that you're saying it, the message you know, what you reveal about yourself, right? Like my wife is black, if I come in, I say to your audience, like, I'm in a mixed race marriage, I'm going to assume that you have a pretty good audience, but there might be some crazy racist out there in your group that's like, oh my god, that guy, I'm not doing business with him. Okay, well, I mean, I but that's, that's okay, because there's probably some other people on out there that are going to be like, Oh, all right, good for you, Seth.

Seth 17:52

Now, you know, that's not a selling point for me. That's not something that I go out there and it's just an example that popped in my head. But you have to get comfortable with the fact that that the things that you stand for, in the values you hold, who you are, your experience, the things that you reveal about yourself, the vulnerabilities that you show, are going to naturally attract people to you, and they, by their very nature, are going to naturally repel some people from you, some very viscerally, and others just because they're like, oh, okay, I get it, but he's not for me, and that's a great thing, right? Because you don't want your email list clogged up with a bunch of people who are never going to buy. You don't want your social media followings filled up with a whole bunch of people that aren't ever going to convert and so the the more that your message can, kind of like, divide groups up into the people that are really for you and the people that are really against you, or not really against you, but the people that are really for you versus all the other people. That's actually a really good thing, but it's a very uncomfortable thing for many people to think of that like, I'm gonna say something and there's and I I'm gonna say it, knowing that a bunch of people are not gonna resonate with it, not gonna respond to it, not gonna, right? And so, you know, these are all the the mental, you know, a list of the mental things that you have to get through. And I often teach this lesson to my clients, and I, you know, remind them of this idea that you're going to, you know, even in your like, larger audience. Your message isn't for everybody. Your message, you know, if you're going into a launch cycle, your message is for the people that are just ready to buy, and a bunch of other people who love you are going to hear that message and be like, Okay, this message isn't for me. I'm not in the buying cycle, or I already bought from you, and I'm not buying a second time because it wouldn't right. It wouldn't make sense. I already took your course, or whatever. I already own your piano. I don't need two. So, you know, that was a difficult thing for me, and for a long time I struggled in in kind of like how to to teach this in a in a way that really. Me that people could really relate to on a on a kind of an emotional and visceral level. And then I realized, you know, when I was a when I was a kid, so I'm dating myself. Here you can see the the gray hair. I was born in 72 so I'm 53 years old. And you know, towards the end of grade school for me, that was the, that was the early 80s, big rigs, trucks, tractor trailers were still all the rage. Back in the late 70s, they were huge. They were making movies about Smoky and the Bandit, Every Which Way But loose, Trucker Convoy. Hollywood loved the long haul trucker. And as a kid, you know, my best friend and I, we loved big rigs. And we would, any chance we got, we would throw we would, you know, stuff, our backpacks full of bologna and cheese sandwiches and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and some, you know, juices, fill up our Cub Scout canteens with water, jump on our bikes and pedal on down to the rural route, the closest rural route that had a decent amount of truck traffic. And we'd stand there on the side of the road. Keith, my best friend when I was growing up. Keith would have his, he would have his he had a John Deere trucker cap that he always wore. I would often be wearing my uncle. I had an uncle that served in in Vietnam, and I had an army helmet of his. And, you know, I'm a little kid, so the is, like the helmets down here, you can barely see my eyes, and we're standing there on the side of the road, and as the rigs would roll by like we're out there just pumping our fists getting them to blow their air horns. And you know, of course, two little kids standing by the side of the road, they'd always blow their air horns, it would be great, but you can take the way, think about the way that a rural route works, right? Sure, there's, there's rigs on there, but it's this isn't some like cargo-only highway or something like that. There's all kinds of cars and trucks and vans, and it's the, you know, early 80s, there's still plenty of these wood paneled station wagons rolling around. And we didn't get all like, Oh my god, well, I mean, what? What happens if we pump our fists in the in the station wagon sees us, you know, we're we're kids. We're focused. We were laser focused on the trucks and getting the air horns to blow for us. We didn't. We weren't worried about what, the how the other people were interpreting our fist pumping message, and why? Because we knew that station wagons didn't have air horns, and all we cared about is air horns. And I, you know, now, when I teach that, I tell that story, because it for most people, there for most people. One, they're like, Yeah, I did that as a kid too. Or, like, you know, I knew people that did it or whatever. And two, it's like, ah, yeah, I get it right. Like, I have a target audience. They're the tractor trailers all the other vehicles on the road, it's not that I don't like them or that I hate them, or that they hate me, or anything like that. It's just the message is not for them, and it's totally fine if everybody else doesn't get the message or gets it and says, but that's not for me. Oh, that's fine. That's great. Don't worry about it. Be the kid. Be a little kid by the side of the road, pump your fist, get your air horn, your dose of air horn, and and happily move on with your day.

Pualena 23:12

I love this, and it makes a lot of sense. I mean, in in practice, in real life, just now you mentioned in passing, I'm a BJJ guy. Okay, if I'm gonna choose a coach, I am also gonna choose somebody that likes the same things I do. So we can know i right. I also enjoy getting beat up in jiu jitsu as I try to learn how to do things that are easy on paper and hard in practice, like and so if I have an opportunity to join Donald Miller's program or yours, the fact that you shared that and you literally took half a second, it just flipped out your mouth and it was gone, I'm now going to choose you. So, you never know what you share, what stories you share, what parts of your life, right? Let people into that will help them to feel related to you. So I love that. And we just got a dose of your storytelling, and it's phenomenal. Great job.

Seth 24:15

Oh, well, thank you. Well, yeah, I mean that idea of what you just talked about is what I call seeding, and it’s one of the things that I that I teach in my Expert Guest Accelerator Program is the idea of, when I'm a I have a huge focus on active guesting, because I think a lot of people as a as a podcast host, I'm I know that you're going to know exactly what I'm talking About. A lot of people come on podcasts very passively, right? I mean, they have a plan in that they want more exposure, and they have a plan in that at the end, they're hoping there's an opportunity for a CTA, and they've got their CTA planned out. Hopefully they've got their CTA planned out, right? But otherwise, they're kind of along for the ride. They're they feel like they've been invited to a dinner party and they're the guest, and they're just like, okay, whatever the host says, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a good guest, right? I'm not rocking the boat or anything, and I'm not advocating rocking the boat, but, but a lot of times, the guest just sits back and lets the host run the show, and most of the hosts that I've worked with, they actually love it when the guest runs the show, or Co-runs the show because they've invited the guest on, because the guest is an expert in what she does, what he does, and probably significantly more of an expert in that particular area than the host. And so they love it when the guest takes the conversation in the direction that's of most value to the audience that the host has spent all this time building. And so I say, look, you've got to be really active in your guesting. You've got to be thinking about kind of Co-hosting the show. You've got to do active preparation. You have to study the host. How does the host, you know? Does she ask questions at the beginning? Does she have standard outro questions like, be prepared. And then when you know that, you can know the type of stories that are going to fit. You can know all these other kind of things, but one of the things that then, if you are actively guesting that you can do, is you can seed your conversation. You can seed the conversation with your offer or the CTA in preparation for the CTA, right? So I just did it a couple seconds ago, I mentioned my guests, my Expert Guest Accelerator Program, right? So I could have just said which I have before, as we've been talking, right? I've said, Well, when I work with clients, which is a little bit of seeding, but in this case, I specifically name dropped my program, because now at the end, and I don't know that I'm that, you know, I think at the end I'm not pitching my program. But were I to at the end be like, hey, come and join my Expert Guest Accelerator Program. The audience hasn't heard it for the first time. They're not like, what's that all about? If I seed it three or four times, and I get to the end and I mentioned, hey, I'm launching, you should come check it out. Well, now they're they're like, Oh yeah, I know what you're talking about. Like it just that pure. There's a psychological principle called the mere exposure effect, and it's just, just by being exposed to a thing, you begin to become more comfortable, more familiar, and you like it more. And so you know, the more you see a person's face, why do people put like selfie shots of their of themselves up on LinkedIn? People argue about it all the time. It's because the more you see that person's face, the more subconsciously you be you believe that you actually know them, and the more that you you subconsciously believe that you know them, the more likely you're to do business with them, right? So you seed your content, and that little, you know, BJJ stuff too, is seeding who I am, little, just tidbits of who I am, so that my audience, and it's funny, you take that story I just told and and flip it around so that I am no longer pumping my fist for the audience. And the audience is the is the trucks, and I'm hoping that you know, they're gonna honk their horn when they like my message. If you flip that relationship around, and the audience are the little kids and the audience, they have a problem that they need solved. As a little kid, the problem was not enough air horns right out there, like going, Hey, we need air horns, right? The audience is out there. They have a pain point. They're they, hey, I don't have enough clients. I don't have enough visibility. I'm not getting invited to speak on stages. I, you know, whatever, whatever their issue is. Here I come on your show, and they're like, does he have the solution for me? I don't know. Is he? Is he a truck with an air horn that I should pump my fist for? Or is he not? Now, if I drop little seeding hints along the way that talk about my program and talk about who I am, and so on and so forth, as I'm having my conversation with you, they get to know me. They get to know what would I offer, but I haven't been like, here's my program, and it costs x and you should join, and it's 10 weeks, and it's blah, blah, blah, right by the end, when you say something like, hey, Seth, how can people find where can people find you? Or whatever, right? Can I tell them where they can find me? In the people that are there that have a pain point that I can solve are going to say, Ah, I'm going to pump my fist for that guy, because he's got the type of air horn that I need, right? So seeding is, is, is hugely important. And I think it's a skill that a lot of people just don't think about it. They, you know, you're, we're not necessarily taught public speaking classes, whatever leadership classes and stuff like that. They, they're generally not teaching things like this. And it's not rocket science. I didn't make up the concept of seeding. I mean, it's not right. I'm not trying to lay claim to this, but it's, it's, it's not a, it's not a terribly uncommon thing. It's not, it's not that nobody understands it. It's just that your average person hasn't been taught in this way, and that's what something like a, you know, public speaking coach or a podcast guesting coach or storytelling coach can help you with. They because there are, there are techniques that that people that came way before me have developed right that can help No, no need to reinvent the wheel, you know, to do stuff.

Pualena 31:00

Yeah, and it makes the conversation a lot more interesting, natural. It float like it's it's almost counterintuitive, right? Because if you're preparing so much for a conversation, is it still a conversation? But I would argue, right, like to your point, I think people can come on this podcast, and I am so not, like I don't prepare questions, I don't I study my guest, but I've never asked the same set of questions, and that makes people really uncomfortable. I think, to your point, right? Because they are looking to be led through this experience, whereas I want to be like, where do, where should we go with this? This is, this is a blank slate, and we can, we can create magic together, if we just have a conversation, yeah, that like we both have done our own prep work for. You show up prepared. I show up prepared so that we can come together and create something incredible. And to your point, when it does come time for that CTA at the end, there is this energetic shift that is, I have never actually been conscious of it before, this moment where sometimes you're like, hey, where can people find you? Learn more about you, and people will, out of the blue, mention their system, or their program, and it feels a little salesy and like that's why you came on my podcast, versus if you've been talking about it this whole time, it's just a way to supplement and sort of add on to that support that you've already shared and that value that you've already shared throughout the episode. So I think it's a beautiful way to show up. And if anyone's listening and you're doing a little podcast guest tour, definitely consider adding that, adding that consciousness into that experience.

Seth 32:57

I appreciate that Pua, I really do. And, you know, it's funny what you said about the counterintuitive nature of, like, the idea of preparing so much to then have, like, a nice, natural conversation. And I never thought about this. It just suddenly popped into my head as you were saying that. But you know, I would imagine it's like being a musician, right? Like a jazz or a blues musician, it's like they riff off of each other. They don't, and I don't know, I'm not that musician, so, but I gotta believe, if like superstar x is going to be paired up with superstar y to, like, sing at the Grammys. Well, they're going to prepare something, but let's pretend, for the sake of argument, that they're not preparing something. Let's say that they have a longer set, and they've just kind of taught, oh, we're going to do some classics, and we're going to do whatever. Well, they're probably going to like, I, you know, it's like, it's you and, you know, it's you and me, Pua. And so it's like, I'm like, Well, I know Pua really loves 80s hip hop and, like, I know that her first hit was a cover of, like, you know, Dolly Parton or something. You know what I mean. Like, if I know some of the things that you're going to be into, like, I could start singing something, that's one of my things. But I could mix in something that I know you're going to pick up on, and then you're going to light up about that, and you're going to do something, right? So we're going to go back and forth, but we both probably really prepared for that moment, right? But if you prepare properly, you know, if the preparation isn't like I must say word A and then word B, and then word C, right? And when I've finished with that sentence, the host will say something, and then I will counter with what, you know, it's not that type of over preparation where you memorize a script or something, but if you prepare in the proper way. Uh, then it flows. And you can riff off of each other, and you can, you know, understand, you know, you get to understand each other a little bit more. You get to have fun with each other a little bit more. And that's going to make the that makes the whole experience greater. I mean, you know, again, it's funny when I talk about what would I do with host? Because I start feeling a little awkward about, you know, preaching to the choir, but obviously, I'm talking to you, but I'm really talking to your audience, right? So, you know, bear with me. You know this, but 35% of your audience is dropping off in the first five minutes of your podcast, right? And so, and then you're going to lose more over the course of the rest of the podcast. So by the time I get to where I get to give a CTA, 40% of the audience that we started off with is gone on average. So I'm going to do every goddamn thing that I can do to make the show as good from the very second that it starts off as I possibly can. So I can get that 40% number down to to, you know, 37 down to 35 down to 32 because every few percentage points is more people that hear my CTA at the end, right, which is gonna end. That's gonna have an effect on the bottom line of my business when I'm saying, hey, here's my offer. Or, you know, quite often, my call to action is just like, Come follow me on LinkedIn or whatever, right? But ultimately, those people that come follow me on LinkedIn, some percentage of them, are going to turn into clients down the road. So if I can get, you know, if I can get 27 people from your show to come follow me on LinkedIn, versus 24 people on your show, and I do a show a week, like I tend to do, I mean, those extra three people that adds up in the end, and that's gonna that literally puts extra 1000s of dollars in my pocket at the end of the year, right? So that multiple 1000s of dollars into my pocket at the end of the year. And so, you know the idea that you kind of like, oh, you know, I'm a nice guy, I'm a good conversationalist, I'm not nervous chatting with people. I'll just go on a podcast, and it'll all work out, and I'll get and I'll get my CTA at the end. Yeah, it will all work out, but you'll be leaving money on the table. You'll be leaving reef money on the table, if you're not actually treating like this as an opportunity to be as good at it as you possibly can and learn what are the idiosyncrasies of the format, and how you can play with those things to make it just fractionally better on the margins? All right? That's, I mean, a great baseball hitter, right? Like the best. I'm a Red Sox fan, so I'm going to use the Red Sox as a as an example, but the best batter on the Red Sox, he could just rest on his laurels of being the best batter on the Red Sox, and he'd continue to be the best batter for years, right until maybe some other phenom comes along. But that is almost, that is vanishingly rarely the case, right? The best batter on any team is usually a guy who spends way more time, excuse me, way more time in the cage than anybody else. And then on the off season, goes out and hires another coach and goes, gets body imaged and is like, Oh, well, you know you're hitting the ball at a 41.5% angle. And if you hit the ball at a 43% angle, you'd be, I mean, they're tweaking things like that. No, I mean, we're not making 10s and hundreds of millions of dollars here. Well, I'm not making 10s or hundreds of millions of dollars here, but I still want to be the best that I can be at my profession, and if I'm going to spend time coming on podcasts, I mean, I enjoy it and it's kind of fun for me, but I'm doing this for business purposes, and if I'm going to do that, I'm better believe I'm going to figure out how to maximize my ROI on the investment of time that I'm putting into this.

Pualena 39:18

Yeah, it makes total sense. It shows up everywhere too, you know? I mean, in sports, you review tapes and footage and videos from your opponent's previous games. You prepare plays, not so that you have a completely scripted game, no one knows what's going to happen, but so that you show up prepared for the scenarios. When you roll with someone in jujitsu, it's, it's a lot less annoying when you are rolling with somebody who has learned a little bit, right, and like, shows up with some sort of foundational knowledge. And I think the same, you know, there's no secret, it's quite apparent, I think, why we have podcasts, why we ask to be guests on other people's podcasts. It's fun. I mean, that should be the first thing. That's the first thing that I care about. We want to reach a new audience, so we get on other people's shows because they're having a completely different audience from the network that we have. We want to provide value, hopefully, right and get exposure and like, meet someone new. And there's, there are so many beautiful ways to do that, in, uh, to create a space that does not feel like you're using other people's shows to get sales, which I think is kind of, if we if we look at it from a marketing perspective, it's easy to see it that way. But if you look at it from a value perspective, and you're here to put on a good show, right? That's what's going to retain people, and that in and of itself, if it follows some kind of storyline, I think that's going to be the best podcast of all. Yes, it requires some preparation, but you can come on and provide tons of value and have a great conversation and have a beginning, a middle, and an end, and both people come out winning, which I think is exactly what's going to happen with this episode.

Seth 41:24

Oh, well I appreciate you saying that. I mean, I think so too. It's, it is that value exchange and it is that, you know, if people enter into a podcast, same thing with speaking. I mean, if you're like, going to be on a panel or a Keynote or whatever. I mean, if you don't have the audience in my if you don't come with a service mindset of serving the audience, it's going to be apparent and you are actually going to benefit yourself less, right? It's similar to networking. I mean, I tell whenever I'm like, mentoring junior colleagues, people that, you know, people reach out to me from upcoming college graduates, recent college graduates. They're like, I want to get into your field. Blah, blah, you know. They ask for tips. And sometimes, not always, but in very common thing, start talking about networking. One of the things that I always say is I said, look, go to a networking event and spend as little time. People are always like, I gotta get my elevator pitch down. And I gotta, like, Well, I I do. Should I should my business cards be like this? Should they be like that? Do I even need business cards now? Do I just have, like, a is there an app that for, like, sending virtual I'm like, Look, don't even worry about any of that stuff. Show up to the networking event, go up to the people and say, what do you do? And spend all your time talking about them, right? People love talking about themselves. It's one of the reasons why it's fun coming on a podcast, right people, I get to talk about myself. People love talking about themselves, and people love it when you are interested in their business, their business struggles. So then you're like, okay, well, you know, that's interesting. I think I might know somebody that could help you with this. Let me get your contact information. Now, of course, they're going to be like, um, well, I mean, we spend all this time talking about me. What do you do when you be like, I do this thing, whatever. Blah. You don't have to tell them very much. Now, you go and you do that with all the people in the in the room, or not all the people, but you know, all the people that you can talk to in the room during the room during the time that that's allotted, and maybe you're able to make a connection between a couple of the people from what you've been doing. And even if not, you go back, you look through your through LinkedIn, you're like, Oh, I do know. So I could hook her up with this person. I can hook him up with this that person. Well, here's the deal. You selflessly help those people, even just two or three of them from that one event. Just to make it simple, let's say plumbers don't, at least, to my knowledge, plumbers don't tend to network this way. But let's say you're a plumber, right? Those three people, if they need a plumber, you're going to get their business unless they have, like, a brother or something, that's a plumber, but right? They're not going to go and like to research plumbers in their area and try to figure out who's the best plumber, or whatever, and be like, Oh, my God, this guy is the best guy. I'm he. I need some plumbing done. He's going to do my plumbing, right? That's just the way that we work as human beings. We, when somebody does something nice for us, we just automatically assume that they're good, nice people. And if you assume that somebody is a good, nice person, you assign all of these other positive characteristics to them. You assume competence in all other areas of their lives because you like them and you don't want to think badly of a person that you like. So you're like, Ah, this guy's a great guy, and he's a plumber. Let's get him some business, right? I don't know if you're a if you're, like, a fantasy sci fi nerd at all, but there's a book called The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. And there's this funny bit about in The Hitchhiker's Guide, about how if you're hitchhiking across the galaxy, all you really have to have is a towel, because anybody that you meet along the way, if you have a towel, and you can show them that you have your towel, they'll also assume that you have your toothbrush and your soap and all these other things, and that you've just temporarily misplaced them. So they'll lend you all of these things because, you know, they know that you're a prepared person, because you have your towel, whereas if you don't have your towel, they'll be like, you know you're not prepared, so I'm not gonna deal with you or whatever it's, it's a silly little throw away thing, but it's, it's like, it's very true, right? You meet somebody and you know one good thing about them, and it's very natural that we then assume all these other good things about them. And so, you know, it's one, right? Here's one of the powers of coming on a show like yours, is that hopefully I'm getting an opportunity to paint myself in a pretty good light, to give some value to your audience, right? I mean, hey, I don't want to, I don't want to blow up my spot here and ruin this effect. But, like, here's the secret, right? I mean, audience, I'm speaking to you here, you know, I hopefully I'm giving you some value, and hopefully the value that I'm giving you is making you think well of me, and therefore you're going to assume all of these wonderful things about me, which may or may not be true. They're all true, but you don't know that for a fact, right? So it's if you're doing this as a con artist and a Flim Flam man or whatever, then shame on you. But if people are assuming that I'm a good storytelling coach and a good podcast guesting coach. They're not assuming wrong. I am very good at this. They might assume some other things about me that may or may not be true, but as long as you are coming on a show and painting a picture of yourself, that is going to make people like you and you are generally good at you know, you are not generally genuinely good at what you do. You're not tricking them. There's no you know, this technique can seem tricky, but it's you're not being dishonest. You're just using natural human psychology to attract people to you, and people should be attracted to you because you're good at what you do, at what you do, and you deserve more clients, and you deserve more recognition, and you deserve more attention. So you know, learn the techniques to get that and then go out and use it and live happily ever after.

Pualena 48:03

Completely. Well, and it's a beautiful way for people to know. I mean, I think at this stage, people are very keyed into authenticity, and they can tell is this person being genuine or not? I did a podcast episode the other week or interview that I don't think I'm going to release because it felt insincere. The whole time. Yeah, it's this, this space. I mean, we had presidential candidates going on podcasts to, like, get more votes. If that doesn't tell you the power of this, this channel and this medium and this, this space that we all have access to, like everybody has a podcast, yes, it's very saturated, but that's for a reason.

Seth 48:50

And still very saturated, but still growing so really not saturated in many ways, right? I mean, just like the wonderful thing is, is it can become so niched, and that is great, because, like, you know, people always want, I want to be on a podcast that has, you know, 5000 listeners, 10,000 listeners, it's like, okay, well, sure, so do I. But you know, I would rather like be on a podcast that has 500 listeners that are really into like, if there was a show about, like, how, how do you maximize the first five minutes of your podcast appearance, or something like that, and that show had like, 200 listeners, or 100 listeners, I'd be like, book me, right? Because if people are that focused on some tiny aspect of podcast guesting, I'm like, those people are my people. Those are people that are likely to hire me. The 5000 person show I don't you know, like they're interested in podcasting a little bit in general. What right like I might get. I'm gonna get people from that too, but I know that those 100 people are right, right in the midst of of my ideal client. So it's so, you know, even as the as the as the industry gets saturated, the people just keep making little micro niche shows. And that's a good thing, as long as, again, as long as we don't get hung up on the numbers and the kind of vanity metrics. And I want to be on this really big show, it's like, yeah, be on a big show if the show is well targeted to you. You know, I'd rather be on the micro niche show with 500 people in the micro niche show with 100 people. But if you can find a really niche show, and it has more than like two or three people who jump on it.

Pualena 50:49

Totally, and those people probably they listen to what the host has to say, and they trust that the guests that that host brings on can provide value to that audience. To me, that's way more powerful than a big show that just doesn't care.

Seth 51:07

Yeah, no. I mean, I, you know. Look, I, you know, ultimately, I am not in the business of trying to convince people that they should embark on a podcast tour. I'd rather spend my time convincing the people that are already that have already made that decision, that they should hire me, right? But that said, I am, I think everybody should, not everybody, but I think everybody should do it, because it's just so powerful when you think about it. Pua, you have spent hours and hours, right? You've spent months. I'm sorry, you know, I'm forgetting now exactly how many episodes that you whether you've been at this for nine months or three years, but I mean, you've spent months, you've spent years putting together an audience, and I'm stepping, you know, I it took, you know, I did. I mean, I got booked by a booking agency that I paid to do it for me, right? So, I So, right? I exchanged money for time, but whether I also booked myself on shows in addition to the shows that my agency books me for. So I'm either spending money or time to get myself on a show, but in comparison to the amount of time and time is worth money, right to the in comparison to the amount of time that you've put into your show, into growing your audience, I'm like, making out like a bandit here. I'm stepping in here in front of an audience that you've painstakingly built, and with people that listen to you week in week out, and if they're listening to you week in week out, they must trust you. And you're introducing me as an expert, I get to come out here and have somebody that this audience trusts. Say this guy's great, listen to him. Who wouldn't want that? I automatically borrow a piece of your trust and relationship that you've built with your audience just by the fact that I show up on the show and get introduced by you. And I've done almost no work in in comparison to the work that you've done to build this audience. And next week, I'll be on somebody else's show, and the week after that, I'll be on somebody else's show, and the week after that, I'll be on somebody else's show. And all these audiences are different. And if I tried to sit down and build my own, I mean, I'm growing my LinkedIn, in my, you know, Instagram following, and my I've got a podcast. It's not up yet, but I've got a podcast that's coming out, and I'll be spending my time building that audience. But there's no way that I could grow an audience as quickly as just going from other person's audience to other person's audience to other person's audience, and speaking and borrowing their trust with their audience. And as long as I provide value, I'm not betraying that trust, right? As long as I actually come and bring it, then it's all good. It's such a great format.

Pualena 54:16

It really is, and it's, it's available to anyone, which I think people don't realize, like, all you have to do is ask yes. You can hire someone to ask for you if you want to, or, you know, if you feel like you can, you can handle the yes’s and the no's, right, it's, it's, it's there for you. And someone like you, Seth is also there for people to make sure that they can make the most of it. And I think that's huge, because we don't want to be guessing and recreating the wheel and taking, you know, this is an hour of our time. Had you not come prepared? Had you not you just showed up and just kind of see what happens? Right? That's not going to give you the outcome of such a powerful platform as when you do show up with the right guidance, the right preparation. So I think it is about that time to share with people, what is that call to action? How can they get in touch with you, work with you and learn more about what you do?

Seth 55:20

Yeah, I mean, increasingly, I am just having people. I figure, if you're an entrepreneur, if you're a, you know, a serious business professional, I was going to say executive, but we're not all executives, that’s so buttoned up. But if you're a serious, you know, business professional, you've got a LinkedIn, you know account. Come find me on LinkedIn. I'm, if you put Seth Donlin in and generally do, maybe a new Seth Donald has entered the but I'm the first one to just, you know, linkedin.com/in/seth, Donlin. Like you, search for Seth Donlin, and I'm the first, and generally only person that will, that will show up, so I'll be easy to find. I publish, oh, you know, pretty much daily on there. It's a great way to get to know Inc, I post about my family. I post about my 110 pound bernadoodle. I post a lot about podcasting and storytelling. So I, you know, hopefully I'm providing plenty of value. And, you know, and hopefully, when you're at a point where you realize, Okay, it's time for me to, it's time to me, for me to get going with this podcast think guesting thing, or it's time for me to really get serious about this podcast guesting thing, then we'll already be connected, and you'll, you'll know what to do..

Pualena 56:37

Fantastic. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing and for just for a great conversation. I had a blast, and I cannot wait to stay connected.

Seth 56:47

Yeah, thanks, Po. I'm I'm very flattered, honored, blessed that you invited me on the show, so I appreciate it. I had a great time. Hopefully we'll do it again, we'll do it again, and we'll dive deeper in on some certain points or something like that. But it was a lot of fun. So anytime you want I'm ready to come back.

Pualena 57:05

Yeah, let's do it. Fantastic. That's awesome. All right, sure.

Seth 57:06

Bye, folks.

Pua 57:07

Until next time.

View Details

In this powerful and heart-centered episode, Paul N. Larsen joins host Pualena to explore the deep connection between psychological safety, personal growth, and imposter syndrome. Paul opens up about his own journey, revealing how even the most accomplished professionals—up to 80–90%—struggle with feelings of being a fraud. But rather than trying to “overcome” imposter syndrome, Paul advocates for embracing and integrating it, transforming it into a catalyst for growth through tools like gratitude, affirmations, and intentional action. His unique approach encourages us to create safe spaces for ourselves and others, where authenticity and vulnerability can thrive.

Listeners will also get a sneak peek at Paul’s upcoming course on imposter syndrome, which includes a personal assessment, interactive workbook, and one-on-one coaching sessions designed to help you turn self-doubt into your superpower. Whether you're stuck on "Intention Island" or navigating a high-achieving life with an undercurrent of self-questioning, this episode offers a grounding and uplifting roadmap to presence, purpose, and playful self-expression.

About Paul N. Larsen

Paul is a seasoned executive coach and member of the Forbes Coaches Council with over 30 years of leadership experience across Fortune 500 companies like Charles Schwab, Adobe, and Bristol-Myers Squibb. He’s held C-Suite and Director roles in HR, organizational development, and leadership training, helping leaders at all levels lead with both IQ and EQ.

As a former Chief HR Officer for a JP Morgan private equity firm, Paul led culture-building efforts and successful M&As, bringing deep expertise in leadership development, change management, and organizational effectiveness. He’s coached over 500 leaders globally, with clients including Twitter, Salesforce, SAP, and Cisco.

Paul is also the author of the award-winning book Find Your VOICE as a Leader™, and a sought-after speaker known for helping leaders discover their values, lead with clarity, and communicate with influence.

Resources discussed in this episode:

Atomic Habits by James Clear
Find Your Voice as a Leader - Paul N. Larsen
Daily Affirmation Handbook
Kajabi

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Contact Paul N. Larsen:

Website: paulnlarsen.com
Instagram: @findyourvoiceasaleader
X: @voiceasaleader
Facebook: @voiceasaleader
Linkedin: Paul N Larsen

Transcript:

Paul 00:00

Any kind of transformation that we want as an individual, for ourselves, has to occur in the journey. It doesn't occur when we get there. It doesn't occur when we get there or here. I always tell people that. When you're seeking, let's say, development, growth, and you're looking for a coach. You're not buying, quote, unquote, a coach. You're not buying me. You're not buying coaching, even though, that all, that is, part of a product. You're buying the transformation.

Pualena 00:36

This is my friend, Paul. I'm so excited. I've been looking forward to this for so, so long, and every time I talk to Paul, I open a Zoom Room. You chat regularly, and before his face comes on screen, I hear this.

00:55

(Paul humming)

Pualena 01:00

It makes me so happy.

Paul 01:02

Oh, Pula, it's so wonderful to be here. You know, it's, um, I create my own muzak, so to speak.

Pualena 1:10

Like an iPod commercial.

Paul 1:12

Yeah. It's like, you know, you know, you get in these elevators, sometimes you hear that music that's this kind of canned. Well, I've got my own canned, you know, music within me, that internal, I call it internal hum. Because I do think that we all have our internal voices, our internal energy, our internal something inside, and sometimes just let it out, like just just Be. And I've noticed when I do that, I find myself humming quite a bit. And I'm very conscious of, I don't want to infringe on anybody's quiet space and so forth, because I'm an introvert. So I understand that, but I do think it's like, it's the it's coming from inside. I'm very seldom do I replicate a song? It's just kind of my own music. You know, I'm not trying to do Rolling Stones or Partridge Family or anything. I'm just kind of like, it's just kind of creating the environment. That's what I do. So it's in my internal hum, and we all have an internal hum, and just be aware of it and love it and harmonize with it.

Pualena 02:26

Oh my gosh. This is This is Paul, in a nutshell. This is… you, you are like the person who brings the safe space for people to experience their internal hum.

Paul 02:42

I love that. Thank you for that. Thank you really for that. You know it as a coach, right? So I'm, I'm a coach and but I create safe spaces, but I have to create a safe space for myself first, you know, and the world can be very unsafe, and the world can be anything but safe. And of course, we now say, oh, what's going on today? What's going on now? It's always been like that, and people have lived through generations and decades and centuries of just unsafe strife and everything. So it's really important to create a safe space for yourself. And then in what I do as a coach, I want to create safe spaces for others so we can have real, sort of those conversations that humming and all but the but the reality of what life is, to be able to get to that requires safety, what we call, you know what, what I'm sure most of your listeners and your audience have heard, is psychological safety. It's, there's, of course, physical safety, we know, but the psychological safety is, Am I safe here? Can I say what I want to say? Can I, you know, can I really ask that question? Can I really provide that feedback? And so many areas of our lives may not be that way. Relationships, organizations. I've worked in organizations that did not promote psychological safety. You better not say that. You better not ask that question. You will get it'll be a very punitive response, right? So psychological safety is very important, and I think that's where my internal humming comes in, it's like, it creates that for me. And if like, absolutely, it's soothing. It's, it's just, yeah, it's, it's like, it just creates that. And it's funny, you gave me that feedback just now, just here, on, on as a guest. It's sort of like when people hear that, they hear that hum before they see me, they're probably like, what's this or what? But you know me, so you're like, yeah, it's Paul, and that's, that's what he does.

Pualena 04:46

It's weird when it doesn't happen. That's when I'm like, are you okay?

Paul 04:50

Yeah. Then I show up like, whoa.

Pualena 04:53

We’ve known each other for years, and we speak regularly. So and the thing you you mentioned. Psychological safety from an external perspective, and being in safe environments where you're free to speak and think and share. Your work and we will, I promise, for everybody listening, we'll dive into all the things that Paul does and teaches and coaches with one but I feel like your work actually is also in the realm of creating psychological safety for yourself and not letting your, or not, not even not letting, allowing those inner voices to allow you to feel safe in a space where you're telling yourself you're not good enough. Why are you here? Who are you to be doing these things? And how can we shift that so that you feel safe within your own self, to be able to serve.

Paul 05:52

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, you win it. That's right, it is, it is. I thank you for that, because it's like, yeah, it's created a psychological safety for yourself in a world that is increasingly sometimes not safe, or we don't, or we may not feel it, we're accountable to create that for ourselves. It's not, it's not, it's not. It's not the universe of the world, or the person on the street to say, I want to make you feel safe. You know, it's nice if they do that, and it's nice if our partnerships do that, and our husband, wives, brother, sister, boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever, a cat does it for me. Well, sometimes, you know, dogs usually do that all the time. Cats are kind of like, Yeah, I'm sure I'm gonna feel, make you feel safe today. Yeah, but you're absolutely right, and we have to look for ways that we can nest in that but, but here's, here's the here's the here's the conundrum. Pua, we want to feel safe absolutely but we still want to grow. And sometimes we can feel safe. Oh, okay, I am safe right now. I feel safe. This is a good place. I'm never going to leave it.

Pua 7:05

Yeah.

Paul 7:06

This is my comfort circle. I'm not going to leave it. Oh, boom. And, you know, our comfort circle, our comfort zone, whatever we want to call it, beautiful place. Can feel very safe, but nothing ever grows there, which includes, of course, us. So that's what I you know, it's funny because myself, I've learned through the years, many, many years, many decades, and then the folks I work with as a coach, as a mindset coach, as a leadership coach, you know, all those things that I that I love to do and is my best gift, so to speak. But it's a balanced integration. It's like, okay, you feel safe. Great. You got to make that. But at the same time, we want to nest in growth. And growth is, is sometimes, you know, kind of looking at this background behind me, which is an actual painting in at my house, it's colorful, it's vibrant, it's messy. It's like, what's going on there? What's going on there? Oh, look at this over here. Look at that over there. That's what growth is that's why I choose to actually, whenever I do, you know, beautiful interviews like this and videos and so forth, I choose to sit in front of this because it's a beautiful background, because it represents to me what I need to do within myself, to keep myself alive, that synchronicity, that alignment, but to be safe as well, because I then, know It's like I can then, okay, once I'm safe, then I can move forward. But that's the key. It's, it's, I call it intention Island, right. Intention Island. You have the best of intent. We can have the best of intent for ourselves. We can have the best of intent for somebody else, but we could have the best of intent all around but if we don't take action, it's never going to happen. So people are, you know, I can't tell you how many times I've worked with people, managers, colleagues, I myself as well, have been guilty of this. Oh, you know, Pua, I had the, you know, I intended to do that for you. I had the best of intent. Pua, I was going to do that, I was going to get that out, or I was going to follow up. I just didn't get a chance to do that. More than likely, when that happens in people's lives, it happens more than once. It's legacy behavior. Now we always have things happen where could just happen, and is what it is. But I worked with so many nice managers who had the best of intent, and they never got around to following up on their actions. So they're on Intentions Island. It's like, you know, it's kind of like, okay, I'm good. This is for Paul. He has to, you know, he has to go home tonight because I don't know what to do. It's intention Island, and I've been guilty of that myself, as I said, Because I wanted to be nice to people, so it's like, yeah, I'm going to do that, or I'm going to get that out, or I'm going to do this, and then I don't, I don't. And especially, it really can create missed expect. Educations and disappointment and discouragement when you're in the role as a leader, especially we're talking organizations. But magnify that if you're in the role of a mother or father, you're on the role of a boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife and boy, yeah, that can really impact relationships, right? The trust goes away. The credibility goes away.

Pualena 10:21

So wow, I want to dive into all of this, and I want to, I want to introduce you as who I see you as in my circle. Amongst many things you are, you're kind of the imposter syndrome guy, and people think about you as you know, and for me, like, when I'm like, oh my god, I'm doing this speech, or I'm doing this podcast, or I have a podcast, I won't even tell people that I have a podcast. Why do you just let people find it on their own? Don't talk about it. Like, talk to Paul. You need to get on the phone with Paul. Right this second because that doesn't serve you, but it exists in us for a reason. And I would say, you would probably tell me, it does serve you, and how does it serve you? And, you know, and, and so you that that is one thing that you do. You're also an international speaker. You get flown to locations around the world to speak and lead workshops. You've written books, you have multiple frameworks. I mean, you are just and you've been you've worked in corporate for many years, and so all of this experience, and the ways that you've created this world and this business for yourself, and the way that you serve people, an hour is not enough time to dive into all of it, and just the incredible ways that you are a part of this network in this world, we'll do our best. So Paul.

Paul 11:49

Wow, I mean, who, you know, who's she talking about, you know? I mean, it's I appreciate that so much, and I want to, I want to recognize what you said, and I want to validate that, and I want to pay homage to that, and I want to tell you I really appreciate that. And even today, the fact that I have, I live with imposter syndrome, and I like to say that I thrive with it, and I know, you know, I've really leaned into it. I kind of understand it, and so forth and so on. But it's still, it's still kind of like, boom, there it is. Even sometimes when I hear people talking about me, right, depending on what they're saying, but like, you're just doing this very eloquent introduction, it was like, Ooh, really? Hmm, wow. But that's part of it. You know, I years ago, I was having these feelings in the corporate world, and is mostly the corporate world, and it was this kind of weird feeling, like, you know, I'm a fake, I'm a fake, or I'm a fraud, you know, like I'm pulling one over on people, like, the I'm really not as good as people say I am. I don't really deserve this promotion that I got or this job or this project or whatever it is, those accolades. And, you know, and like, I really don't belong here. All these people are just so much smarter than me and all that stuff, which is, some of those thoughts are not really uncommon. I had no idea what it was. I just thought it was part of, you know, self doubt or confidence. It's not really that. I think a lot. Oh, yeah, being humble. Oh, you know, oh, Paul, you did such a great job. What wasn't me, it was, it was this team of strangers on the street corner that finished it all up, you know, like, you know, it's like, own it, Larsen, own it, if it's deserved, right? And then one of my mentors back in, back in the day, I think it was like 2004 so it seems like that's a long time ago now, 20 years ago, 21 years ago, she said she looked at me one day she goes, Do you feel like a fraud? Do you feel like a fake? It was like a commercial. Do you, you know, you know. Do you like Lucille Ball with her Vitamin A to Benjamin? Do you poop out at parties, you know? But do you feel like a fake? Do you feel like a fraud? And when she said that, it was like, Oh, my god, yeah, I do. Like, like, it was like, what she called it, she just came right in and she called it, and I said, Uh huh, because we had a really good relationship, and I could just kind of say anything to her and admit anything, and she says, oh, you got imposter syndrome. This is imposter syndrome. Like, Oh, yeah. No worries. Imposter syndrome. I said, say, what? Like, what? Stop, stop, go back to that. What? You know, I had not if I had heard of it, it had been, I had buried it, right? And she goes, yeah, no. It's feeling like a fake or fraud. It's like feeling that you don't belong. Uh, it's but she says, Paul, go away. I want you to go and research it. I can tell you all about it, but I want you to find out all about it on your own, because I think you'll own it more that way, and you'll integrate it. Which man was she right. That I did. I just leaned into it. And it's a thing. It was, it was categorized. It was. It was actually, it was actually categorized in 1978 it's actually not a syndrome from the medical term, but it's, it's, it's like a, what they call a phenomenon, right? So, but it takes on the word syndrome, and yeah, it's, it's, it's feeling that we have to be someone else to be successful. So it's not just confidence that you're that you're lacking, because I can be a very confident imposter. I've stood in front of people on stages, especially in corporate America, where you stand on stage, you're doing an all hands or an all team meeting or whatever, and I can stand there, but inside I'm like, I have no idea what I'm doing. But here's the best news, and this is why you when you go back to what you said earlier, it is really a superpower, and I use it that way because number one, up to 80 to 90% of successful, keyword, successful, keyword, successful people, professionals have admitted to feeling like an imposter at one or more times in their lives. And many, many, many of them, like myself, it's kind of an ongoing thing. It's kind of integrated into who we are, the DNA, right? So successful. So it really it's people who have achieved a certain success, and they either get to a place where they begin to feel very, very, very, very apprehensive, intimidated, they plateau, or they, you know, instead of the continue to go up, they kind of valley, the peaks and valleys. But it's successful people. It's not the people who would be what we would call performance issues that we used to call in, in HR lingo, they feel like they probably are really good, and they're actually not. But successful professionals. So you're in great company. Is my point, 80 to 90% of people, and they're all successful, and they have felt this way. So you've got, you know, it runs the gamut across all industries, all age groups, all lifestyles and all genders. When it was first identified back in the late 70s, it was kind of thing, oh, you know, that's a woman thing. You know, that's a woman thing. And it might have been like a trajectory where, where more females felt that way. But really, I think what it is is more females, or more women, are more apt to admit it.

Pua 17:33

Yeah.

Paul 17:33

Yeah. So it's like, oh yeah. It's like, yeah. Now as a coach, and what I do in with my clients and in companies, I see it pretty much equal between male and female, right? And anything can kind of trigger it. And I learned early on, you know, you and I have had laughs about it around overcoming something, to me, is just fatiguing. It's just, it's like, Oh, I'm gonna take a nap. Overcoming this, and we're gonna climb that mountain, and we're gonna go up those 80s, 80 flights of stairs. Oh, no, thank you. It's not about, for me, overcoming it. It's integrating it. And when you integrate something, when you blend it in, it gets diluted. You know, it's kind of like a, you know, a glass of, like, whatever, you know, you have a glass of wine, or even glasses on and you pour wine. And you pour water in, it gets it gets diluted so it loses its influence, it loses its power, and then you can kind of like, oh, that's, yeah, that's just my imposter syndrome. That's just my imposter voice. Thank you for bringing this up to me, but I've got it, because what it's doing is it kind of wants you even though it's, it's, it's, it's telling you you're fake, you're a fraud, you don't belong. It wants you to stay safe. It doesn't want you to try anything new. And so it's trying to protect you in a roundabout, very negative way, right? And it's like, no, wait a minute, I have this. I can do this. I you know, I can just pivot my feelings. I can reframe my feelings. So I've learned that, yeah.

Pualena 19:10

It's a, the other thing about overcoming something is that feels like you do it, and then you get to move on, and you've, you've done the overcoming, you've done the hard work and it's never coming back.

Paul 19:23

Right.

Pualena 19:24

Whereas, if you, if you've ever had imposter syndrome, it just has different levels where it shows up, right?

Paul 19:30

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Think about, like, our nutrition, right? What do we do? What do so many people do, including myself, in the past? We diet. I gotta lose weight, so I'm going to cut out bread, and I'm going to cut out cookies, I'm going to cut out sugar, and that might all be good. I'm not. I'm not. I don't want to discount that. But what do we do? We cut something out, and then we lose the weight many times. So we've overcome the the weight issue, or the obesity issue, or whatever it is. Yes, but we had to do it by cutting something out. And then guess what probably happened a little bit later, right? We go back to a certain rhythm, or we go back to old behavior, or we go back to whatever it might be, and then we inch back up again, you know, in weight or whatever it might be, whereas, when you look at your whole body, your whole system, all of this, right? And you begin to say, wait a minute, it's not. It's not just about cutting something out, which still might you might want to do. It's integrating new practices. It's integrating new thoughts. It's integrating a new way of looking at myself that will nurture and nourish and take care of myself and still give me what I want out of life, if I want tasty treats or or or cotton candy and or whatever it might be, right? But what you do is you look at a whole your whole body as a whole nutritional system. And that's, that's really important, because then you create a new lifestyle for yourself with habits and practices. That's what I do with the imposter piece. I don't cut it out, because guess what, if I cut it out, it's going to come back and it will, it will. But now I know what to do with it. Now I know what to do with it. And instead of like avoiding it or creating friction, I like to always create flow. So I was like, what? How do you how do you make something feel good? You give it gratitude. And that's what I do. I just say thank you, and it immediately like it just will, it, and sometimes, you know, it might be a real big imposter piece, it's going on. So it might take a few thank yous or or, or something for me to finesse that. But I have learned through the years, it's like it's, it's, it's one way to dilute it, and you begin to integrate it into who you are, becomes part of your DNA. But it doesn't prevent me from doing things. I don't avoid it. I don't have conflict around it. And in fact, if anything it is, it has helped me grow. It helps me flourish. It helps me say, Wow, when I hear my imposter thought or my imposter voice, it means I'm doing something new. It means I am stepping out of my comfort circle or my comfort zone, and I'm doing something new. And that's right there. A lot to be thankful for, a lot to have gratitude for, a lot to be inspired about.

Pualena 22:24

That's the safety you create, and I think it's a different safety than the one that keeps us in our status quo and in our comfort zone. You're allowing a space that feels scary to be safe, and this villain right, that we kind of, I'm just going to leave imposter syndrome home. I don't need to deal with that. Like, get it out of my life. You buy it a plane ticket, and you're like, come on, let's go.

Paul 22:51

Let's go. Grab the backpack, grab the you know, and go. What you're talking about, and I appreciate what you said. What you're talking about is when you try to stay in your comfort zone or comfort circle. You're it's based on fear, based on fear. So the imposter syndrome is feeding the fear. It's perpetuating the fear. It's creating that algorithm of fear. But when you're looking at it from a standpoint of gratitude inspiration, let's figure this out. Wow. This is kind of a weird feeling, or a neat feeling, or a new feeling. You don't have to love it, but you give it some gratitude. It's based on growth. It's based on growth because I want to continue doing this, you know, I want to continue to, you know, develop, evolve and grow. And, you know, there's a the adage we've heard, right is fake it till you make it. Fake it till you make it. Fake it till you make it. Yeah, I've done that. I probably stood in front of people and faked it until I made it right. Or, you know, we do things in life where we just, like, try stuff out, and we're kind of faking it. But I finesse that now, because I think faking it only adds to the superficiality, the artificiality of something of our thoughts of our behavior. So I like to say, face it till you make it. So that's what I do with imposter syndrome. I'm facing it. It's like, I'm facing imposter syndrome. It's like, okay, facing it. And I'm just going to continue to make it, whatever that is. Some days it'll be more successful than others. That's okay, that's cool. But I'm facing it until you make it. And I've learned that, and I it's one thing to say it, but, but, but to actually put that into practice. And I've done that, you know, I've had times where I just have been on a stage with at a, you know, speaking at a conference, or even in a one on one meeting, or even in with family, friends or relationships, and it's like, gotta face this right now. I want to, like, bring this in, whatever it is, right? Because you're facing it, and then, and then, what does that do? That kind of opens things up and more, nine times out of 10, if not more, we're going to grow from that, and we're going to move forward. And it goes back to moving off that intention Island and taking action and so forth. Because if you don't take action, you're just going to sit and swirl. It's like those little, when I was a kid, I was child with 70s, right? And there's this little, these little game is, like called sit and spin. And it was a commercial on TV, and these little kids would sit on this like, kind of like circle thing, and they go sit and spin, sit and spin, and they would just spin around. These kids would be spinning around. What you didn't see was when they threw up afterwards, right? But it was like, that's what we would do if we don't face something, we're just going to sit and spin, and we're going to spin in drama. We're going to spin in darkness. We're going to spin in negativity, or at the very least, we're just going to spin and not go anywhere, and then get dizzy from that, and then have to rest, and then get back up and do it again, like throw the sit and spin out, move forward by taking some steps.

Pualena 25:58

It reminds me of that, that motion versus action framework is that atomic habits, where it's like, if you're in motion, if you're sitting and spinning, you're you're in motion, you feel like you might be productive.

Paul 26:10

Exactly.

Paul 26:11

You're, you're doing something.

Paul 26:15

Exactly. But are you really accomplishing anything.

Pualena 26:17

Exactly.

Paul 26:18

Are you moving ahead? Are you aligned with what you you should be doing with your plan? Do you have a plan all those things? It's kind of like, to your point, yeah, it's, it's, it's, you know, when we talk about, like, from Atomic Habits and a lot of those incredibly beautiful books around around prioritization and managing, sort of your priorities, your decision making, your resources, which, of course, includes time and everything. There's a lot of people that are just busy. They're just busy. They're just busy all the time. He's busy, busy, busy, busy, busy. And they think that they're, you know, oh, I'm just, I got this going. I got this, oh my gosh. I got so much to do. Oh, I get that. And they're just busy, but they're not really accomplishing anything. They're just, you know, they're doing a proverbial spin, but they're so busy that they're kind of hiding behind the busyness, right? And they think that they're accomplishing stuff. And it's not up for me to say if they are or not, you know, I don't know. But when they come to me as a as, you know, and I'm working with them as a coach, you know, I we take, we take that, and I decode all that, I deconstruct that. It's kind of like I've sat with people before in organizations, you know, and they're, they're at their, you know, they got their laptop open in front of them, or whatever, and then you hear the email, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, you know, it's like, Why do you have that on? Does that just make you feel good that you're just getting pinged all this time with these little notes, excuse me, or then they'll sit there. Oh, excuse me. Just a moment. I gotta answer excuse you know. And they get lost in all of that, and in the moment with me as a coach, they're doing that. They're swirling, they're sitting and spinning. They're like, you know, they're busy because it might make them feel good, it might feed the ego. It might make them you know, I am so needed. Here. I am so needed. I do have to tell you what color of napkins we need for the party tomorrow. I am just so needed. And in fact, you know, when we deconstruct that there's ways in which you're it's really not It's not feeding you the right way. It's not nourishing you. It's kind of like just eating a bunch of sugar or eating a bunch of something that's not going to feed you and nourish you at all, and you're going to have a really deep coming down from that fall.

Pualena 28:32

But in the moment, it tastes great, and in the moment you feel full.

Paul 28:37

Yep, right, exactly. And then guess what? You just and you do it. And then you, and then you, you have that, that that sugar low, or whatever it is. And then guess, what do you do again? Because you feel that, okay, here I go. Gonna do it again. You get into that cycle. And we do it because it's all controlled up here by our thoughts. And if our thoughts are reactive, all the time of which we live in, a very reactive society, very reactive world. Hello social media. Digital technology. Social media is fueled based on reaction, likes, shares, snaps, whatever it might be, it's views, it's all reaction. And so we get into that, but we're not necessarily being responsive and in a very deliberate way. And we can get caught in this reactionary piece, and before you know it, we are caught in this cycle. And I'm not saying you can't be successful with that, because that still can happen. But are you truly living the life you want to live? Are you are you truly accomplishing what you really want to accomplish, I like to say, are you living the life? Are you living a life worth dying for? Are you really like living that life? Because we are only here for just a nanosecond, and are you really living that life? You're not waiting till you get to be 30, 40, 50, 6070, before you live your life, are you living it right now? Because you can, you can.

Pualena 30:07

What would you tell someone who says, You know what? I'm going to be honest with you, I'm not, but I've worked so hard to get to where I am, and I just don't feel like I don't want that to be for nothing.

Paul 30:18

Yeah, I hear that actually it's not, it's not an uncommon. It's perfectly valid. Because what you're talking about there is somebody wants to know that they mattered. Somebody wants to know that they are building or authoring a legacy of who they are that impacts themselves and others, whatever, whoever others are that community, right? So what I do with that is we take a step back, you know, we take a step back and and talk about what really matters to them. What does that, what does that impact and influence look like and feel like? What do they have now? So there's usually gaps between what they have now and what they actually want as it pertains to mattering and impact and inspiring and all those things. And then we talk about, what little baby steps do you need to get there? It's not about, you know, sometimes I think there's a misnomer that people feel like I've got to leave my job, or I have to find a new job, or I can't, you know, or I have to have this huge, huge, huge transformation in life to get, to get to something, you can just have little breaks, you know, little, literally, just, you know, little little blemishes of openings in yourself that will allow you in to Create, to your point, that safe environment where you look at yourself and say, you know, I've worked really hard to get here. I don't want to give that up yet. I enjoy it. I'm inspired by it. I you know, I've got a mortgage, and I've got kids to feed and colleges or myself, you know. And I love those Twinkies. So it's like, that's all great, but if that's not adding to who you are in life and your legacy and the impact, let's take a step back and figure out what we need to do around that. It doesn't mean you have to leave where you're at. Doesn't mean you have to give up the relationships. It doesn't mean you have to do a lot of things differently. It starts with what you think, and it's usually limiting beliefs that come into play. We all have those. I'm not this, I'm this, I'm this, I'm not this, you know, I've never been good at this, that, that, whatever those limiting beliefs are, you know, we, more than likely, we've had some of them since childhood, since young adulthood, since adulthood, since yesterday. And I'm not as concerned about what they are, what they're not, or anything, because it's like, once you understand what a limiting belief is, you can do anything about it. So the key is acknowledging what they are. I had a client the other day. I had, this is one of my posts on social media with their permission, but I had a client, you know, the other day, a few weeks ago, say, oh, client was really frustrated. And they said, I just don't have the courage to live the life I want. Whoa. And I was like, and, you know, they kind of were going to move on from that statement. I said, Oh, coaches, stop here. This is the hand I want to thank you. I want you to thank yourself. Why? Why? Why? You know they were like, why they were in a very kind of, like, frenetic, reactive mode, I said because you just acknowledged a limiting belief out loud. And they stopped for a second, and really kind of took that in and took a breath before they started going on to the next, next. And we talked about that. We talked about, like, whoa. And then we talked about, what do you mean? You don't have the courage. Everybody has courage. It's like, everybody has time. It's what we do with it. You know, it's like, it's like, of course you have courage, of course, you know, of course we have time, you know, of course we have air, of course we can breathe, you know, it's like, hello, it's what you do with it. It's how you use it. It's how you reveal that muscle. It's how you develop it. And we talk much more in depth around that. And they were just, they were, they were in, you know, they just were like, Whoa, you know, because they thought courage had to be something like jumping out of a plane, right? Like, you know, you know, the parachute or bungee jumping or something that was like dramatic. It's like courage could be thinking something different. Bingo, thinking something different doesn't require in that moment, necessarily, action. It can lead to something but we start small. And, and that's, you know, I thought that. And, you know, it was a wonderful, wonderful reminder to me as a coach to kind of work through that, but to acknowledge what our limiting beliefs can be, whatever they are, and they usually show up. You know, in that way, we're lacking something. You know, it comes from. Fear comes from lack, and we all have everything we need to be successful.

Pualena 35:06

Gosh, I really needed to hear this, both for myself and also so in the work that we do, building websites for people, brands, all of that, there is often a big reveal. There is often this pinnacle moment where this thing that you've been building and working on and visioning for so long, even before you hire us, and right before that happens, people tend to, you know, we have five pages we built on a website. We've gone through a few rounds of revisions. People are talking, you know, we're going back and forth, Okay, final approval. Here we go. The big releases, big launch is tomorrow, and all of a sudden, overnight, I will wake up with emails and chats and of all the reasons why it's not ready yet. Yeah, and I've always said, you know, that's that's limiting beliefs that we're working through, and it's that kind of like fear of the next level, and like, I get it when I see it in other people, seeing it in myself is another story, which is why we have people like you. But I never once thought about having a conversation around allowing the person to see it, talk about it, admit it, look at it, welcome it, have gratitude for it, and then allow it to exist as we launch. Yeah, that is huge.

Paul 36:32

Well, that's a beautiful insight you just had around that. That's an incredible insight. Because what you do you and your team do you are mirroring back that person to them. So, so, so, so it's a different kind of mirror, but if you think about it, it's what, it's who they are and what they do to the world, yeah, and of course, if they're coming from a place of vulnerability and or fear, already, they're going to have some hesitation, some resistance. And if they aren't coming from a place of vulnerability or fear, it might all of a sudden just trigger that right then, because you, you are you, you are unveiling something that is like, Oh no, I'm not ready for this. I'm not ready to put this out there yet. I'm not and that that follows in with I'm not good enough. I'm not not this. I'm not that. It's part of our imposter piece. It's part of what we call our saboteurs, what we some people call saboteurs. Some people call a gremlin. Some people call the inner critic. You know, we all because we judge, and it's like, well, who are you to put this out? This is not you. What are you doing here? No, no, you're not even done yet. Oh my gosh, you can't do that. No, what is this? That's too colorful. That's not who you are, whatever it might be. But the work that you do is so intimate. It's not website design. It's nothing like that. You are designing them from within, and that's what you need to sort of, you know, that's what you need to maybe pull from them a little bit more to say as we go through this, it's not just this separateness over here, because you're not, and I know this for a fact, because, because you've designed my site and you you have an intimacy that you bring to the to the design methodology and the design process now that you know, and to be honest with you, some, some, Some, some digital firms don't do that, but you do. So you get in and get to know us, which even makes it more intimate, right, and more vulnerable. So, so with that, it's like, but, but, but that's what you're doing. You're not designing the site over here that is going to live over here. And it's like, you know whatever, you're designing something that's going to live within here, because you've gotten to know that person, that that whoever that individual is, and for them to know that beforehand, why even bring them along? Because you want to enroll them in that whole journey around that. And then you'll have people to your point. You have people like, Yeah, bring it on. You know, this is right. I'm ready for this to do, because that's where they're at. But you're absolutely right, because the way that you work and the product that you end up creating, it's, it's, it's, it's them, it's an extension of them, but it comes from here.

Pualena 39:37

Wow. Things happen that we don't expect, much like our work together, right? You have this incredible book, Find Your Voice as a Leader. We can talk about that, and it's, there it is, and that, that blue, that gold, that bold text that is one of your brands. And. Through working together, we actually discovered a second brand that you have that's quite different. It's all under Paul and Larsen. There is that it feels, it feels kind of like it appeals to corporate. And then there's a brand that I feel like is reflecting that part of Paul that is inclusive and gentle and welcoming and safe and provides a space for growth that has this very playful aspect with the illustrations and the colors and so that that journey in that process with you has been really interesting too, because you do have different roles in different spaces that you show up in, and all of them are valuable, and it's a beautiful example of allowing yourself to be in all of those spaces at the same time under the same brand. And I think people feel so pressured to make decisions. I must have only three colors. I must use this everywhere, right? What has that been like for you in those different spaces and different roles that you have?

Paul 41:06

Well, that's a really great insight, and you're absolutely right. So when I left the corporate world, I was my final corporate gig was at Adobe Technologies, great company grew, wonderful company, and I left in 2009 because I, I, you know, I and it wasn't like I was going to go to another company. I knew I needed to do something else, right? I needed to, like, go into, like, figure something else out. But after 30 plus years in the corporate world, these colors, this font, the word leader. Can you make it any bigger, right? But you're absolutely right. It was bold. So I knew that. And it was great. I enjoyed it. It was, it was my inspiration. I loved working with with people across across all different industries and organizations and so forth. But then I knew, you know, probably from 2009 to about 20, maybe 15 or so, I begin to think, you know what? There's more. I got more here. And it's not more of this, necessarily. This is great, and I enjoy it, and I love it, but I got a whole nother side to kind of open up here, like, expand. That's my word. I can expand, you know, and you're absolutely right, there's, it was like, I wasn't sure what. It's kind of a playfulness. I was like, let's try this out. Let's try that out. And I started small around that, around kind of, you know, trying out, like, little different, you know, different projects or programs, um, and then when we met, it was, you sort of tapped into that, because when we met, and I had, I had migrated to Kajabi, which then allowed, you know, it's like, it's so huge, and it's so overwhelming. Somebody said that in an email yesterday. It was really cool, I thought, and very spot on your message. I didn't even know what to do. And so that's where you and I met, and when you designed my site, by thinking, by talking to me, by getting to know me, by understanding my you know, kind of where my strengths were, and what my triggers were, and all those things you unleash that piece through…that's why what you do is so critically important. And you unleashed that playfulness you saw, that you saw the frivolity, you saw the colors that that are behind me here, that that I, you know, I moved from the traditional kind of library, you know, like, Oh, he's got all these books. Oh, yeah, he does. You know, I was like, wow, I got all these books, and I got the whatever I have up there, right? Seen that background of oil, right, exactly. And I went to this, and it was like, I just opened myself up. And you opened me up with with the site and but more importantly, you opened me up with the artistry. This is the science of what we do, and science is absolutely needed. It's the checklist, it's the questions, it's the protocol, it's the algorithm, it's the policy, it's the thesis, it's, it's, it's everything that we do, Paul, Paul, you've got, you've got this down. It's everything, and we can be successful with that, just stopping with that, but I knew that there was an artistry that I had, and that's this, that's the heart, and to open that up more, to expand that. Because, again, we all have it. We all have it. It's just a matter of how it shows up, how we demonstrate it. You know, we all have it, and it's just like to expand that. And so that's what you enrolled with me on my site. And you kind of pull that out of me, and then that playfulness just started to kind of like snowball so to speak, you know. And it was like, Okay, let me try this. Let me try that. Let's see what this works. Pretty soon I'm trying out different things. Some may work, some may not. So what? It’s that curiosity of trying stuff out, that creativity of trying something out, and that courage to have at it, and it's and it's just fun. It's just like a fun adventure. It's just like this, this, this, this wonderful, wonderful, wonderful sort of journey. And remember, I've had to learn this myself. Any kind of transformation that we want as an individual, for ourselves, has to occur in the journey. It doesn't occur when we get there. It doesn't occur when we get there or here. It occurs in the journey. I always tell people that you're seeking, let's say, development, growth, and you're looking for a coach. You're not buying, quote, unquote, a coach. You're not buying me. You're not buying coaching. You know, even though the you know, the all that is, is part of a product, you're buying the transformation. You're buying what, what's gonna what's gonna enrich you. And that's exactly what, when you talk about that playfulness, that trying things out, the color, and that kind of and you say it's the other side of Paul, but in a sense, it's all of me, all of me. And to be true to that, as much as I'm true to this, to blend them together, the art and science. Because, you know, in coaching, I don't just coach someone to some somebody at work. I'm coaching their life. Yeah, you know, it's like, I'm not to say, okay, when you're at work between eight and five or whatever the hours are, right? It's probably like six to six now, but when you're at work, we're only going to coach that, like what? No , it's, you're the person. I'm coaching the whole person and whatever they experience in their lives. And that's the key. That's the key. And I think, yeah, that's what I love about that's why what you do is you are enrolling people in that as well, and you are potentially bringing out another side to them that they may not even know, and that's why they also hit resistance, or why they also hit vulnerability, or why they also hit fear. And for me, when you did it, remember, I remember, Oh, my God, this is, like, incredible this website. There's like, all this wonderful animation and all these people on there. It's like, you know, like, hello. It's like, but before that, all the sites I had had were fine, but you, you touched on a lot about who I am, because you understood that. And you and I, you know, had had that wonderful conversations. So, yeah, I and that's what life's about. You know, that's how we can serve each other, by understanding that, because it goes beyond just our occupation, our position.

Pualena 47:50

And you are walking your talk, you are, you have integrated beautifully the various sides of your business. You have so many ways that you serve people now you have a killer social media, videos, you've got really great you know, they're bite sized, digestible pieces that are they're really impactful. Like, sometimes I'm like, oh my god, I needed that today, right? Like, that's that. That's what I hope to create in the world. Are these spaces where people just get what they need. Like, I there used to be this, this trend on Instagram, someone would say, like, take what you need today, and they would put little, little things that you could tap on. I forgot about that. That was cool. I kind of want to visit that. But I think that's what you offer with your content. So you've got, you know, this beautiful resource of free content that people can just go and and take little, little motivational snacks from your feed.

Paul 48:48

I like that. They’re little, I love that. They're, they're little coaching moments, they're little motivational nuggets. They're a little, I love, I'm a snacker. I love snacks, all kinds of snacks. So I love it. There's little snack bite size, because they are because that's how I that's how I learn, that's how I grow, that's that's how I am. You and I've had discussions on this. I'm not going to do a huge, big, long thing, you know, whatever that long thing is, like a co… a huge course, not right now, who knows what tomorrow and the next year, but right now, I want nuggets, because that's what I need, that's what I want. And it gets you thinking a guy, you say, Oh yeah, I agree with that. Oh no, I don't agree with that. Wait a minute. What's he saying? Great. It's provoking, or it's another way to think of something, or whatever it might be, that's what I love. And, yeah, you're absolutely right. I bring that in as we're talking, I want to make sure, I want folks to know that, you know, I use a lot of like, what we call positive affirmations in life. Anything we tell ourselves is an affirmation.

Pualena 49:51

Tell us about the affirmations.

Paul 49:52

Yeah. So I created, so I use the affirmations a lot, positive affirmations, kind of realistic affirmations. Uh, especially on things I want to manifest. I'm not a huge journaler. I don't sit and write a thesis every morning. I know people are wonderfully into that. I just like to kind of think a few things and ground myself. I take maybe three to five minutes, really. But I started looking at all this, gosh, I got a lot of this stuff, and people were asking me about it. So I compiled it, and I created this my Daily Affirmation Handbook. It's a simple kind of PDF. It's about 60 plus pages, but it offers like, 365 affirmations, plus a lot of wonderful kind of content that you about, about how to use them and so forth. So I'm offering that as a gift for everybody. So I'll send you the link. You know, you can, you can make sure it's in the show notes or whatever, and just go, go to that link and then get, get my handbook on that, and I'm, I'm so inspired to be able to share that. And if it helps people, that's even, even better, right? But, but it has. It's a way for me to give back. It's just a way for me to say, this is what has worked for me. It may or may not work for you. I understand that. I'm not everyone's cup of tea. You know? I'm not, you know, that's okay, and that's okay. It's okay for us to understand that, but I want to be able to go forward and provide people with maybe some tools or practices that they might need. And that's where that comes from. That's where to your point, the coaching moments come from. I'm starting a new thing that'll be out probably in May, or, yeah, probably a little bit later in May. But affirmation moments, you know, and again, thinking about affirmations and what they mean, and how do we finesse them? And what if we're, what if I'm sitting there saying, You're so stupid, Paul, you're so stupid. That's an affirmation.

Pualena 51:38

It sounds crazy and silly when we say it. But how many times do you sit there like, I'm like, this is, how is this so hard?

Paul 51:44

How could I be so dumb? Oh, God, how could I be so dumb?

Pualena 51:47

Yeah, and you you start to kind of reinforce those thoughts.

Paul 51:52

You absolutely do. And so I go through kind of an exercise myself, because I do it. I go through an exercise myself around reframing, those just finessing, those slightly pivoting, those. I'm human, so I feel I have the gamut of emotions. I feel angry at people, I judge people, I compare myself to people. I'm discouraged, disappointed, mad, I'm sad, but then I'm also all the other stuff, inspired, happy, content, fulfilled, you know, excited, all those things, because we are an emotional machine. So it's using the intelligence of our emotions. How do we use that, you know, the old emotional intelligence, but it's really like, Oh, wow. Okay, I'm sad. What does that mean? I'm sad, and that doesn't mean in 10 minutes, I'm going to be completely happy, probably not, but I can move in a certain way and begin to feel a little less sad or a little less angry or a little less despondent, whatever it might be, doesn't mean that I'm going to go a 180 Oh, I'm happy. Now we know that’s nuts, it doesn't stick. It's not right? It's not it's that's more faking it right? Now I want to face it till I make it, and then I just want to kind of move a little bit forward and stuff. So that's what affirmations do for me. And I know sometimes they get a bad rap. People like, oh, they just go around and, you know, you're just going around talking about how good people are. Well, I think they are good, but that's not it. It goes beyond the little posters on the on the wall or the little laminated cards or something. It's what you feel here. And if you just say affirmations, and they just stay here, it's the science you got. That's the script. Okay, good. But you gotta, you got to feel it here, and that's what I do. So I'll be sharing those out too for folks. You know, if they want that awesome.

Pualena 53:48

It’s a phenomenal resource. Definitely grab the link in the show notes and download that handbook, connect with Paul and grab those, those little, bite sized coaching moments. They're so good, they're beautifully edited. And you also have a course and some coaching options.

Paul 54:07

That's right. So I'm, I'm launching, I'll be launching the Imposter Syndrome course, kind of making imposter syndrome your, your superpower, and I that's going to be available to folks, and it's a it's a combination of short nuggets of learning, and then with an imposter syndrome assessment, which I've created, and then, and then a workbook on how to hack your imposter code, 50 ways in which you can do this. So it's kind of, it's a wonderful course, because it has kind of a little bit of everything. And the best part, it's not long. It's not like, oh my god, I gotta, okay, take module one today.

Pualena 54:50

Yeah, it’s so good. And you buy it, you own it. And every time you feel like you're having some sort of imposter syndrome coming up for you, you can just dive in and. And re-experience that course in whatever way that that you need to in that moment, it's so good, it's so good.

Paul 55:07

And that everyone that buys the course that I'm gonna, you know, it'll be a very, very approachable, uh, approachable investment for folks. Anyone that buys that course, purchases that course, they get lifetime access. You know, lifetime access. We'll get a coaching session with me. So some of you might think, oh, big deal. There's my imposter voice right there. Do you see how that worked? Do you see what I just did there? Yeah, I was not. That was not planned, by the way. So I come out with, like, a coaching session with Paul, right? If you want one, right? It's part of, it's part of the package. Oh, valuable, yeah. But then I just diluted it by saying, Oh, you might not want it. You're gonna want it because I'm gonna want to talk to you. You might want to talk to me. I’m gonna want to listen. So I look forward to that. But irregardless how people experience me, feel free to always ping me. I'm open. People send me emails. For the most part, it's conventional emails is the best way. Although I'm on, I'm on Insta, Facebook Business, LinkedIn and x, but you can see you can find me there, but just send me a message. How you doing? You know, I'm all I just love kind of building that community all over the world. So don't hesitate to ever reach out like that.

Pualena 56:25

Paul Larsen, you are a unicorn of a human for what you do in the world. I'm so grateful to know you. If you're not, if you're just listening to the audio. Paul has these cards that he uses on his his zoom calls, and he’s holding them up…

Paul 56:39

Mind blowing. It's mind blowing.

Pualena 56:43

You really, I think need to sell, like, a pack of those, those cards.

Paul 56:46

I know they, you know, they're really fun. They're just, like, on a little, like, popsicle stick, right? And they're just, and I, you know, I need to make more, right? I need to make more. I need to make them maybe a little bit more conducive to, you know, to what you and I talk about all the time, right? So it's great, but yeah, died like that. Life, yeah, life's too short. We're all here for a second. We gotta have, you know, we all we have is right now. I don't have I don't have next hour, I don't have yesterday, or even when we started this podcast about an hour ago, I don't have that, it’s gone. All we have is right now, and so don't waste it. Live it, you know, enroll in it and but be present, because there are people that don't have that anymore. There are people that we woke up today. All your listeners and audience woke up today. Some people didn't, and I don't mean to be so dramatic, but it's true, and it's like, gosh, just we have just right now, and just be so fulfilled with that and inspired, and just go out and, you know, be kind, but be kind to yourself first.

Pualena 58:02

That is the perfect note to end on. Thank you so much for being here, Paul.

Paul 58:06

Oh, thank you, Pua. Beautiful. Thank you.

View Details

In this eye-opening episode, Ryan Chute joins Pualena to explore what it really takes to stand out in today’s crowded business landscape. From infamous to influential, Ryan shares his journey from a transactional sales mindset to leading a nine-figure branding agency. He emphasizes the power of clarity in communication, encouraging businesses to boldly stand for their values and choose who to lose in order to attract their ideal customers. With sharp wit and real-world examples, Ryan breaks down how aligning your messaging with your values and customers’ identities is the secret to long-term success.

Throughout the conversation, Ryan unpacks the vital shift from hard sales to persuasive storytelling, urging businesses to focus on creating value, trust, and identity-driven loyalty. Learn how to make a lasting impression on customers by delivering experiences that engage oxytocin responses over dopamine hits and how to foster relationships that last far beyond the first sale. If you’re ready to ditch transactional tactics and start communicating with intention, this episode is your blueprint to get started.

About Ryan Chute

Ryan Chute is the leader of an 8-figure creative consulting agency within the Wizard of Ads® group, where he helps ambitious Residential Home Service Contractors and Professional Service Companies scale their revenue by 4 to 10 times through brand-forward sales and marketing strategies. His expertise lies in eliminating friction and aligning story, experience, and culture to accelerate profitable growth.

Ryan’s journey to leadership wasn’t linear. He began his career in the high-pressure, transactional world of retail and automotive—environments rife with questionable practices, toxic leadership, and fear-based management. Like many, he mirrored what he saw, becoming a capable manager but, by his own account, a poor leader. A pivotal moment came when he was fired for toxic behavior. That experience led to an awakening and a fundamental shift in how he viewed leadership, accountability, and growth.

In November 2015, at the age of 40, Ryan was introduced to a transformative concept by his Wizard Partner, Ray Seggern: the power of Story, Experience, and Culture. It clicked. He realized that a company’s brand is an expression of its internal culture—and when that culture is thriving, it naturally extends into an exceptional buying experience.

Today, Ryan helps business owners create legendary brands by removing hidden sources of friction in their businesses, enabling teams to sell more easily and buyers to purchase with confidence. His work is built on the belief that when companies protect and nurture a happy, healthy, and wealthy culture, everything else follows—including lasting growth and meaningful impact.

Resources discussed in this episode:

Wizard of Ads
Jim Camp - Author
Chris Voss - Never Split the Difference
Daniel Pink - Drive
Lisa Nichols: Ryan Chute: From Marksman to Master Strategist

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Contact Ryan Chute | Wizard of Ads:

Website: ryanchute.com
TikTok: @wizardryanchute
Instagram: @wizardryanchute
X: @wizardryanchute
Facebook: @wizardryanchute
LinkedIn: @wizardryanchute
YouTube: @wizardryanchute
Threads: @wizardryanchute

Transcript

Ryan 00:00

That is also the reality of branding, because you have to choose who to lose. The price of clarity is the potential of offending someone, and there's always somebody that's going to be offended when you connect with the people that you're trying to connect with. You don't need to target people in a lot of your marketing channels. You just need to say the things that would resonate with the people you want.

Pualena 00:25

Infamous countdown to the infamous Ryan Chute. Welcome to the podcast.

Ryan 00:32

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. I love being infamous. Infamous is still famous. I'm just saying.

Pualena 00:38

It is. What's the difference?

Ryan 00:41

Well one's like, like the villain and one's the hero,

Pualena 00:45

Really?

Ryan 00:46

Yeah.

Pualena 00:47

You're kidding. Have I been using it wrong all my life?

Ryan 00:49

Well, it really depends on how you see me. By the end of this, I might, in fact, be the most infamous.

Pualena 00:57

Well, now I'm excited. Let's just, let's just dig in so I can decide which one you are.

Ryan 1:03

That's it. You never know.

Pualena 1:05

Incredible. Well. You do have an air of mystery and magic with your brand and the results that you get for your clients. So I would love to hear. Who are you? What do you do? What is your business? How did you get here? All of the things?

Ryan 01:20

Well, you know, you got to be a special kind of weirdo to call yourself a wizard in the first place. Let's, let's start with that. And it really, it really just goes downhill from there. Believing in better communication is often the reality of most people. But it wasn't until 2015 that I really realized that I was so transactional in the way that I was thinking. I was so survival mode thinking and so fixed. You know, I wanted so much I want. I'm ambitious and smart and and all the things that you need to be to kind of get the job done. But I was getting in my own damn way. And when I realized what was causing that it was a real, you know, game changer. It was a real changing point and a transformational moment where I said leaning into the bigger picture and how we connect with people on a more relational way and in a more abundant way, a more thriving way, opens up opportunity that you don't think you can open up. I had made a lot of money. I was really, really successful in sales. I was transactional seller and and doing transactional marketing, lots of offers, discounts, and all of those things grew up in retail, so it was pretty rough and tumble, lots of friction, lots of toxicity, all the kind of normal stuff that you that you kind of experience in high pressure, high performance sales environments, and that's what you know. And you act the way you know, and you think you're doing the best that you can and doing what's right. And then you get fired, like I did, and you're like, I'm crushing it here, and you're firing me. I don't understand, like, what's going on. So that was a big game changer for me. Today. I'm blessed. I run a nine figure agency, and we chase down all kinds of huge opportunities for clients to go from name recognize good brands, good operators, and turn them into brand names, into household names. And it makes a huge difference. And the biggest difference is in the operations that are already doing great. It's in the messaging that we wrap around it and to stop thinking of it so transactionally,

Pualena 03:40

That is so needed. And it's interesting because we think about sales, and we're like, I want to, it like it is a such a transactional mindset, of like, how do you get A into the hands of Person B, and then they give you their money, and that is just sale. And I think a lot of people think about like, I don't want to be salesy, and therefore I shall not sell my products or services, right, period. What can you share with us about shifting that mindset from feeling salesy or that being like a necessary evil in our business to being something that is enjoyable and worthwhile and also crucial to building an actual business that's profitable.

Ryan 04:29

Well, let's, let's, let's remove the word sale and all of the negativity that comes with the word sale, and replace it with the word persuasive and and everyone wants to be persuasive, right? Whether they're trying to convince that pretty girl to go on a date with them, or they're trying to convince their kid to do that thing, or they're trying to convince a class of students to buy into this math equation, or this, you know, this notion of God, or any other situation, we're always selling people something, but we don't have to call it sales. We just have to talk about creating an environment of value. And the real question ends up being, what do I actually bring to the table that is valuable? And this is a huge gap. This is a monstrous gap in this universe. People think that I bring value when I do the stuff that everyone does right? And that's a baseline of value that no one values, because everyone can do that. What people truly value are the things that come with sacrifice, with consequence, with self imposed consequence, when you don't do what's promised, that comes with suffering to some extent, right? Think about it this way. My favorite analogy around this is justice and mercy. We agree that both of these are equally true, right? They're valid, they're relevant, they're important. But it really depends on which side of the table you're sitting on, right? If you're sitting on the side of the table of the accused murderer, you want mercy. And, of course, if you're the victim's family, you want justice. But what happens when the victim's family murders the murderer? Tables are turned, right?

Pualena 06:10

You are a wizard, go on.

Ryan 06:12

And, and this is the fundamental definition between the two, the people that we are so taken aback by are the people who are the victims family that want mercy, right, and the and the accused murderer who wants to justice. Those are like, wow, that that's the hard thing to do. Well, what if we transferred that into our businesses, right? When the customer feels a certain way about a certain thing. Most of the time, a manager is going to make the decision of what's going to not hurt the business the most, which means you don't really stand for anything. These are like the stars in the sky and all the constellations they move around. The alternative to that is that they've already chosen. That thing was chosen before the situation happened, and I'm going to stick to my North Star. The North Star is the only star in the sky that doesn't move. Well, here's the thing about a North Star. If you're navigating the ocean of life, the North Star is the only thing that's telling you where to go. And if you have only one thing that tells you where to go, then you can go somewhere, and that makes you a leader, because followers don't follow people who aren't going somewhere. You want more followers? Pick your North Star.

Pualena 07:32

So what's an example of this in in your business?

Ryan 07:36

Well, you know, you look at Amazon, their North Star was, we'll return it, we'll refund you. And that changed the retail landscape forever. Broke a lot of retailers, yeah, right, that's a North Star. That's hard, especially since they were an online business. Today, it's infinitely easier than it was. You can go down to Whole Foods and drop off your thing that needs to be returned, right? Five years ago, 10 years ago, you couldn't, but they still did the hard thing, right? The expensive thing, the unnecessary thing, they lost money for 20 years, right? So we look at it and we go, what are the hard things in your business that you can do? What are the things that you stand for? What are the things you stand against? Do you know who else that appeals to besides customers?

Pualena 08:22

Your team, yeah.

Ryan 08:24

Right, your employees. They want to be a part of that. They want to be known for being the on the side of virtue, right? That's attractive. And that's branding in a nutshell, right there.

Pualena 08:40

Wow, I've never thought about it this way. It makes a lot of sense. We talked a little bit earlier. We're like, people are either gonna love me or hate me. I'm like, that's perfect. We want that.

Ryan 08:54

right? That is also the reality of branding, because you have to choose who to lose. The price of clarity is the potential of offending someone. And there's always somebody that's going to be offended when you connect with the people that you're trying to connect with. You don't need to target people in a lot of your marketing channels. You just need to say the things that would resonate with the people you want.

Pualena 09:15

Yeah, wow. Say that again for the people in the back, that is exactly yeah, and I think people are afraid to be in that position, because we don't want to disappoint people.

Ryan 09:28

Well, this is it. We want to be all things to all people. So we're trying to speak to everyone, and in turn, we're speaking to no one, right? Because that message doesn't belong to me. You're not talking to me anymore. You're talking to this ethereal group of people that don't exist in my world, right? And a lot of that world lives in survival mode, right? Pain happens in survival mode. People are trying to hang on to their thriving, you know, entity that you know, their their business, their marriage, their whatever, their job. And it's like, now I can't risk it. I want all of them. Okay, if you want all of them you already lost. You can have most of them. You can have some of them. You can turn a whole bunch of the people that want what you want to choose you, and you can have your disproportionate, unfair share of the pie that is appealed to what you sell, but you're not going to have everyone you're not going to get the whole pie. Stop trying to get get the whole pie. Just start trying to get a bigger piece of somebody else's pie.

Pualena 10:33

Yea, would you consider that niching?

Ryan 10:37

Well, I would. I mean, no no, because it's really define niche. I mean, niche can come in so many different ways, segmenting, niching, personas, archetypes. There's so many different kind of words that are floated out there that are fundamentally nonsense, and that's why people sometimes hate me. It's because they've been preaching this forever, and it really isn't that right? What it is is being better at communicating. It's being better at standing for something. You're not going to be better communicator until you choose what to stand for. That's, that's just kind of the basics, right? Like it's, it's if, until you have chosen who to lose, until you've chosen what you stand for in whatever it is that you're doing, you're never going to communicate better, because you're just saying what everyone's saying. And if you could just replace ABC with 123, company, then you're nothing. You're nothing to anyone. Will you get business? Yes, just enough to convince you to keep going. You want disproportionate success, you have to do something disproportionate.

Pualena 11:47

Tell us more about that communication style or system. Like, what? What would you tell someone who's like, Okay, I've been trying to please everybody because I'm living in this, this space where I'm just holding on to anybody that will listen to me. How might they begin and sort of navigate that shift?

Ryan 12:08

Yeah, they begin exactly where we started the conversation. They begin with, what do I stand for? What do I stand against? How does that fit into how the customer wants to buy I was just I spent a day with an HR company, and they service the trades. They're fantastic at what they do. And three of their packages, they have three main packages were perfectly aligned to how they run their business, completely unaligned with how people want to buy their stuff, and they absolutely capture who they deserve to capture, and they don't capture a whole bunch of people they deserve to capture. And by simply shifting how we package it, how we improve the packaging of what they sell, right not the wrapper around a plastic bottle, but basically that, right? How do we make it so astoundingly easy for the customer to go? Yeah, I want that one. That's how you shift from getting some people to a lot of people, and then you have to kind of consider who you have as a market, right? Some people aren't going to come to you until something external happens. Something has to break first before they can they can act upon it. These are things like hot water tanks and insurance and stuff, external stuff. And then there's stuff that has to happen on some products that are sold internally. Something internally has to break right, figuratively speaking, of course, but sometimes not, like mental…that doesn't have to be severe. But it's like, you know what? I want my ass to look fabulous. I'm going to go buy Lululemon pants, right? And that's the thing that broke, right? What is the thing that's that's tying this all together identity, right? I'm a person who, when they have no hot water, has hot water and goes and solves that problem. I'm a good consumer. I'm a good provider for my family and myself, and I'm going to get the thing done that needs to be done that needs to be done to fix that problem internally. I want my ass to look fabulous in Lululemon pants identity. I equally want something to be fixed that I can elevate my status within myself, within my internal self, within the individuals that I care about most, my in my nearest proximity, my wife, my kids, my co workers, my boss, whatever, or the tribes that I associate with, the community, the church, the business that I'm in. All of this orients to identity. And when we start to realize that all motivations. Internal or external, positive or negative are driven by identity. We can start baking a different cake that's going to be more persuasive, delicious to solving that problem. And the better my cakes, the better my identity within myself, my individuals that I love and and my my greater tribes that I care about.

Pualena 15:22

Hmm, this is fascinating.

Ryan 15:24

Isn’t it?

Pualena 15:25

We are…. it is!

Ryan 15:27

It is I love this stuff. It's so neat.

Pualena 15:29

It's so it's so juicy, and it's such a interesting puzzle to solve, because once this reframe right, it's like, I selling a service that is connected to someone's identity.

Ryan 15:45

Yep.

Pualena 15:46

Then we get to think about, how do we communicate, what we do to drive persuasion, not sales, based on the transformed identity that somebody wants.

Ryan 15:58

Right. And where does that start? It starts within yourself.

Pualena 16:05

Tell me more about that.

Ryan 16:06

Well, how do you identify, right? Like, what do you see yourself as? What do you see yourself providing this universe, even if it's one soul at a time, don't worry about trying to solve everyone's problem. Worry about one human being that you could make a difference in their lives. And just realize that there's more of those people that feel the same way. It's amazing when I sit in a room with somebody like Lisa Nichols, who has 200 people in a room, and she says, Does anyone else feel like Sally feels right now? And like 78 people raise their hand, and you're like, Oh, dang, I'm not alone here. That is your customers. You're solving all of their problems by solving Sally's problem, and you did that by identifying what you care about most. What did you intend when you built this business, when you solved this problem, when you spent time with this beyond what anyone else has spent time with it on right? That's where your true genius lies. That's what Albert Einstein says, who was a true genius. He says, It's not that I'm smarter than other people, he was, but he was humble, and at the end of the day, it's that I spent more time with it than other people, and that's why he was successful in that. And there's so many people in this planet, people that are listening to this podcast that are feeling the exact same way that I have something to contribute. How do I do it in a way that people actually receive what I'm trying to build? Well, start with what you intended, and then tell the world about that in a way that stands for something and sacrifices for others for their benefit. That's where true value lies. What's valuable is what you value, and your value is what you give up for the benefit of others, and they're willing to pay you their money, which is worth more than the thing that you have to give up, right when it's worth less than the thing that you have to give up, they're giving you the money because they're getting something more valuable. It's all about value, but you have to do something valuable first.

Pualena 18:07

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense, because we often are in a space where we have solved a problem and we've gotten so good at solving that problem that we can then provide it as a service to others. And we're here because it was us. We were the ones. I mean, right? You were in sales positions. You had to figure this out. And so when we allow ourselves to connect back with that version of ourselves, essentially talking to ourselves.

Ryan 18:38

Right, right.

Pualena 18:39

Genius.

Ryan 18:40

We’ve often heard people say, be the you know, be the solution that you were looking for, be the leader that you wanted when or needed when you were when you were younger. This is the essence of everything that we're doing already. Just once you become aware of the ingredients you can make a better cake.

Pualena 18:56

Brilliant. So what are those ingredients that you guide people to start to collect and bake into this delicious cake.

Ryan 19:06

You know, I, I'm in the midst of writing that exact book. It's called Frictionless, yeah, this, this is, this is a book about a business owner who really just kind of struggled with getting in his own way. And he got in his own way, being a normal person, doing normal person stuff, his whole life, learning from the people that were around him who taught him those things, and those, those visceral feelings that he had about his previous experiences, is in his genetics and and ultimately, it boils down to a handful of things. There's, there's a dozen things that really do kind of get in your way when you're in business. A few of those things are what we talked about earlier, the motivations, I've monikered it “Harold the Motivation Penguin” for many obvious reasons we I inverted to Yin-Yang symbols and then overlap the positives to really highlight identity being kind of the linchpin to all these things, the internal problems, the external problems. And in every internal problem, there's positive and negative, and any external motivation, there's positive and negative, and all of those things influence us. And what we're really trying to do is just get that barometer right. We're trying to trying to get from negative feelings, right, the cortisol that we feel those bad feelings that pit of our stomachs up to a baseline of happy and then find happiness right when we're meeting and exceeding the KPI of happy, right? And then we can look at things like KPIs and how much, those are nonsense, and how we're chasing all these red herrings that make us feel like we're measuring stuff that matters when most of the time we're interpreting completely the wrong thing. And what we really need to pay more attention to are the actions and behaviors that achieve a KPI. And when we get KPIs right and measure the things that matter, well, then we don't have to be burdened by all the things that make us feel depressed because we didn't get, you know, enough likes off of our you know, YouTube video and whatever the case may be, then we look at, how do we compensate people? Well, do we compensate people in a way that that keeps the demons away and has them operating in the forefront of their prefrontal cortex, where they make the best decisions and have the fullest range of complex thinking, or do we have them always twisting about in survival mode where they make bad decisions and do deceptive and devious things to meet quota based on bad leads that we never took responsibility as leaders for to motivate our staff to do the thing that needs to be done, we just hold them to shitty statistics, right and bad data, right, with insufficient sample sizes and low quality customer base. Because we never actually said the thing that attracted the good customers. We just said transactional nonsense that brought in a warm body that's willing to take something for free if you gave it to them. So when we start to pull apart all of these things, all of these things are the things getting in way of my advertising being successful, right? Because I get paid money to write ads and to build strategies and grow companies, and I only get paid when the company grows. I don't get paid more when they stay stagnant, I get paid less when they go backwards. We bake that right into our business model, because we're not here to not succeed. But the reality is, is that marketing is far too important to be left up to the marketing department. If we don't have sales people who are bought into the vision. If we don't have customers who are willing to buy what the salespeople are selling, then we really don't have anything. We just have shiny words on a pretty font and a nice colored truck wrap or some other silly thing that get us a whole bunch of people to disappoint. And then eventually, it's not the people who don't know you that's a problem. It's the people who do that are choosing not to shop from you.

Pualena 23:02

Wow, that's a powerful statement.

Ryan 23:06

A sad reality of a lot of businesses. You know, there's choice out there.

Pualena 23:12

A lot of times it's not like, I think people will be listening to this and they're like, Oh my God, that's me. And we are well intended. We're just doing what we think we need to do.

Ryan 23:24

We are absolutely and I live that life of good intentions fully and all the way to the gates of hell, right? Because the road is paved with good intentions to the road to hell, right? And it's not because we're bad people, it's because we're not saying it right. We're not doing the things right. It doesn't matter what your intentions are, if, if they're misplaced, you're going to go in the wrong direction, right? And it was a huge moment for me in 2015 and that was just the first moment it took me two years to break through that, figure it out, and then start building a plan to help point others in the in the right direction, to help them get out of their own way, to reach beyond the length of their shadow, so that they could be tall enough to ride the next ride. And that's how you level up.

Pualena 24:14

So 2015 was that a business of yours that you were trying to grow? What was that?

Ryan 24:20

No, I was working for a company, and they had just asked me to take over the Australasia market. We did. We blew that thing up. It was a monster, hugely successful. Visas run out. I'm sitting there going, what am I going to do? How am I going to do this? And they, they, I'm basically back to zero. It's felt like I'd take 10 steps forward and 20 steps backwards, and I was just depressed. I just it was awful, and it just became a culmination of miserable life and realizing that I hadn't lived my fullest potential and was frustrated. Not, they, they're not bad people that I worked for. They they were good folks and and they just ended up creating an environment that was overdone and overplayed and and transactional, and it just didn't fit with me anymore. I had started learning about it, and by 2017 it was like time to do a thing. And and I did.

Pualena 25:19

And how did you decide that this was your path forward?

Ryan 25:23

I was invited by Roy H Williams to become a partner. I didn't even know really what partners were, but I had said, Hey, can we talk literally, three sentence email to him. I'd found his email, and he'd been teaching these classes that I going to for two years now, and he'd gotten to know me, and I'm like, man, I love what you're doing. I just see that there's like, this gap. There's this missing piece here. And the missing piece is that if you don't have a great employee experience, and you don't have it's you're not going to have a good buying experience. And if you don't have a good employee and buying experience, you're going to go flat. You're just like, your branding and marketing is only going to work so far before you before you hit a wall. And he's like, yeah, we see that all the time. Absolute, huge problem. And I thought I was going to do sales training, and then I spent time with some some real mentors of mine, real good sales trainers. Been in the business a long time. They said, Ryan, this is the wall that we continue to hit over and over and over again. And it's that you train these sales guys up to a point where they're completely competent, only to have the manager walk in behind you and disassemble it almost instantly, because they're not the ones following it. They haven't bought into the system of success. So I said, Well, I can't do that. Then I like, it's like that's just going to make me mad, and people don't like me when I'm….including myself. I'm a horrible person. So I said the people that we need to fix here are the people at the top, and those people have to be the champions of the people in the middle who are going to lead, the people in the at the front lines who are going to get the job done. And you start thinking about it the way modern military people think about it, with commander's intent and rules of engagement and flexibility over autocracy. You have to create this ability for people to be successful. We can't box them too far into a corner, because, like Mike Tyson says, everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the mouth, and that's exactly what's happening in sales the moment you step over a threshold, or a customer comes into your shop, or you get a phone call in or an email, you're dealing with the scenario at hand, and that's never going to go as scripted.

Pualena 27:36

I'm just thinking too like, what? What's the plan? When that happens? When it hits the fan, when you're kind of rocked, and you're like, these are all of the things that I thought that this company was built on, and somebody just came in and said that that's not working.

Ryan 27:52

Well. I mean, that's exciting in my world, because, because it's, it's not, a it's not a problem, it's an opportunity, right? It's a it's an opportunity to be better, to stand taller, to stand out, to be 600 feet above the competition. Because, let's face it, the majority of your competitors, probably all of them, haven't thought about that either, right? So good news, you stand for something, they don't. You stand out, you matter, you win, right? Does it happen overnight? No. Trust takes time. Brand is an element of trust, right? No different than me. You're you're going to trust me. The more you spend time with me and understand me, you're going to trust your spouse, your kids, your boss, your teachers, as you start to experience and align or disalign from them and choose whether or not they are your people or not, including yourself. Do you trust yourself, right? How kind are you? Are you treating yourself? All of these things matter, and when we just start to shine a light on it and go, you tell me you know what's going to happen? You start working on your traumas. That's what you're going to start doing. You're going to start figuring out the things that made you the person you are, and come into terms with that stuff. Because we're all living a life of where we came from and how we were built, both externally and biologically, and we lean into that and become better people. It's not going to make us weaker. It's not going to take that, that energy that got us to where we are today gone. It's going to improve things. And we just have to allow ourselves to be vulnerable. We have to have that courage. You can't have vulnerability without courage. Can't have courage without vulnerability,

Pualena 29:40

And it does not, entrepreneurship is not a space for somebody who does not have courage, right?

Ryan 29:48

And frankly, an ambition to win, and a kind of a directional mindset of trying to go somewhere. And the very first thing in the path to going somewhere is. Finding your North Star, right?

Pualena 30:04

This sounds like a win, win, win, win, win, win, and you just have to be willing to do the work and go on the journey. It sounds like a personal transformation, a transformation for your business, your profitability, the joy in which you serve your customers, because you then have people in your space that you actually like and have been looking for all this time.

Ryan 30:31

You do attract those birds of a feather. You do? You know the words you use are, what attract, what you get. If you're just transactional as heck, you're gonna get a whole bunch of transactional people. They're looking for magic bullets and snake oil and all the silly stuff that we deal with. You're starting to see course creators suffer significantly from that fatigue that that companies are putting out there and and course oriented companies like Masterclass and Coursa and whatnot eating their breakfast because they're hitting this this volume play on small, little costs. If we're going to do something of value, understand that the quicker it works, the quicker it's going to stop working right. Those are transactional things. Those are tactical things that satisfy the dopamine of your customer. You absolutely have to get them in, but if you want durability in a customer, you have to switch from dopamine to oxytocin. You have to do things that have them love you, bond with you, get loyal with you. You have to deliver beyond what they expected for them to continue to buy in for the second, third, fourth, fifth purchase, to keep leaning in and buying more. That's where the real money is. Everything that you do up front, if you're trying to build your business off of the one thing that you sell that's the loss leader, effectively, quick, short term, tactical thing that gets them in the door. You've already lost. You're just going to spin your wheels doing a whole bunch of really small stuff your whole life. You have to lean in and create relational stuff that's going to take you to the next level.

Pualena 32:20

Wow. This is huge. So question for you, is there ever an appropriate time to like when you're when you're talking to a cold audience and you're looking for that hook? You know, once they get into your ecosystem, you've got that, you've got everything that they're looking for, they can learn to trust you, but upon entry, do you do you play on one or two hits of dopamine until you can get them in? What does that look like?

Ryan 32:53

There’s no measurable amount of dopamine. People are addicted to dopamine. Do you know that every addiction on the planet is not the addiction itself, but dopamine, right? So everything from adrenaline junkies, which is dopamine, to drugs and everything else in between, is dopamine. So the addiction is dopamine. It's not anything else, and it's not to diminish the vehicle or mechanism that gets it in that has to be addressed, but it is the dopamine, the actual chemical that we're having to deal with. So yes, is dopamine important? Yes, it's the thing that gets people going and gets them in once they're in, the way to get oxytocin into their bloodstream is to do something that you didn't promise. So a lot of people will completely give away everything that they're going to do just to get the person to step into the space.

Pualena 33:48

Oh, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. Go on.

Ryan 33:52

Forgetting, forgetting that operationally, you need to deliver 20, 25% of things that they didn't anticipate that they get for free and more of your time, your money, your effort, something of value, monetarily or or through transformation. And when you do that, you are playing chess, not checkers. And the oxytocin is what leads them to product B, C, D, E.

Pualena 34:23

Wow. This reminds me of a story I heard about a trust bank where, like, if you are able to deliver on things, as you said, unpromised in the beginning, and continue to build that trust through consistency and delivery of quality and just being a good person and helping them to achieve the goals that they're looking to achieve and more that trust bank gets more and more full, and they're more and more likely to stay, to come back, to refer their friends.

Ryan 34:56

So what we're talking about is loyalty. I like to call it the “Loyalty Bank.” It's based off of Jim Camp's work. Jim Camp is a master negotiator, and really orients his strategy around getting people oriented to the no, not the yes, because a yes is a trap and a no is a is a safe place, which Chris Voss has popularized in more recent times with Never Split the Difference. So what we're talking about here is, how do I get people to feel loyal? That's getting oxytocin. If I'm going to get them to feel loyal, then one of the things that we do with one of our companies is they pay $120 to become a member, right? We then give them a $120 loyalty credit towards a big purchase, right? And that adds every year, they get another $120 so every time they give us $120 they get $120 in their bank. And this is what I like to call the Loyalty Bank, because after three years, if we can hold that customer, which is the average attrition time for the memberships in that space, they've got $360 they're walking away from. And $360 is hard to walk away from. And we also reward them more stuff if we can have them refer to us. We don't have a public referral program in that company. We're not going to tell them that they're going to get $200 for every customer they refer like you hear an awful lot in the car business or whatever. Instead, what we're going to do is what Daniel Pink calls “Now That Rewards.” So if you look at Daniel Pink's book, it's called Drive. He's a brilliant researcher and author. He talks about if, if we create an if-then reward, if you buy this, then you get that, then what you're going to get is actually mediocre productivity result. This is what we talk around, spiffing, getting, getting. Basically, you do this thing, I'll give you 25 bucks. If it's anything more than the most rudimentary basic thing in the whole wide world. You're not going to actually improve productivity. You're typically going to reduce it with anything that requires any level of complexity or complex thought. Instead, if I said the same person nothing, and they did the thing and then I gave them $100 or I sent a gift basket out just thanking them. Instead of giving them dopamine, I have given them oxytocin. If I want loyal people to refer me, ask for the referrals at the peak of their emotion, at the peak of their oxytocin, at the peak of them loving you for what you're doing for them, ask for the referral in that moment, and if you even get one referral that turns over, and you can pay on that referral, pay them with a surprise. The surprise is going to activate oxytocin, which is going to deepen loyalty. Again.

Pualena 37:55

I love this. Do you have any thoughts around and this is getting like real in the weeds, and it might not matter, what’s a cool gift?

Ryan 38:04

That’s where I live, right in the weeds.

Pualena 38:07

I love gift giving, gift receiving. It's totally my love language. And we're always talking about, you know, what could we gift to our clients? What could we gift to the people that refer us? What are your thoughts on just, you know, pay paling somebody a couple 100 bucks versus sending a physical gift that is probably actually worth less, but received in a different way?

Ryan 38:33

Yeah, so PayPal creates a disassociation. But when you're across the world, that's probably the most practical thing. PayPaling somebody, or Venmo, or whatever. Doing it unexpectedly is the key. The surprise is, is the is the chemical activator. So doing it without expectation, without promise, without offer, that's where you have the real win, the chemical win, the biological win here, of loyalty. The other thing that we do with a company, they install air conditioners, and when they install an air conditioner, it's like a $15,000 purchase. It's a lot of money, right? If that goes really, really well and there's not these outrages over expenditures, then the company will then take a check for some vaguely random amount, $163.18 handwritten by the guy who did the quality control or the sale, and they bring that, that retro check to the customer and just say, Hey, listen, we didn't, we didn't spend all the money that we need to spend just in contingencies and stuff like that. And we're just going to give you this check for $163.18 because we didn't spend all the money. This is yours and oxytocin, right? When you're looking for ways, and that's real hard for a company to do. There's like. You want me to give money that I just fully earned? And it is like in my bank account back to what? Yes, yes, I do, because we're building friends for life here.

Pualena 40:09

Yeah, does that? Does that feel a little out of integrity, though, like if it's not actually money that you save, then it's just this random check?

Ryan 40:18

By all happenstance, it actually is money that they saved. It is, it was baked into the operational equation, and not everyone gets it. It is, it is as random as the situation at hand, because sometimes you crack open a wall and all of a sudden you're spending an extra $3,000 fixing a problem that's not yours to solve, but you have to solve it, and you eat that, and that's just part of business. But in those instances where they can give back, they absolutely do give back.

Pualena 40:48

Oh, I see interesting. I like that.

Ryan 40:51

Yeah, so and every company who's doing good work is doing that right there, there's always a contingency there. That's just like the what if contingency, well, what if we just gave that back? If there was no contingency right?

Pualena 41:05

You’re getting your security deposit returned.

Ryan 41:09

Right, and because they were never promised that it just feels good, right? And that's really the question of sales and persuasion. The only difference between manipulation and persuasion is the is the negativity and positivity that people have assigned to those words. Manipulation by rights is no more evil than persuasion. It's just how people perceive it. But when you look at the intention of those words, my definition to speak into what people already believe to be true is that manipulation is for your benefit as the business owner or the individual, and persuasion is for the benefit of others. So if you're giving them $163.18 back, are you manipulating them, or are you just being more persuasive to make a friend for the long run, because they just got $163.18 back for no reason.

Pualena 42:00

Right? Right? Yeah, I really, really like this reframe. We're persuaded all day long.

Ryan 42:10

All day, every day, a billion times a day, totally, sometimes well and sometimes not so much, right?

Pualena 42:17

You know the grocery store and you're picking between two jars of pasta sauce, whoever has the marketing that and here, I think this kind of, like, brings it all home. It doesn't matter whose is prettier. It matters who's resonates with you as a person, if you if you prefer organic food, and you know, whole ingredients and no preservatives, and this person prefers something that can stay in their pantry for three years. You're two different consumers who are going to make two different decisions, and if you are, pasta sauce number three, that's trying to please both consumers, neither one will buy you.

Ryan 42:58

Right, right.

Pualena 42:59

So, it's not really about sales at all. It's about connecting with the value of your consumer. Wow.

Ryan 43:09

Understanding that the communication channel in the passive sauce equation, I would say it's the exact same as the wine industry. You're making a decision off of the color of the bottle, the shape of the bottle, the weight of the bottle, the label that was put on it, and whether or not you have previous experience with it? Well, if you think of your business or the product you sell as the bottle of wine, do you want to be the $14.99 wine that a million people will buy nobody will buy, or the $80 bottle of wine that people love to buy? Right? And and it's a choice you have to make. And all of those are fine, but you can, you can have a cheap bottle of wine that no one buys because it's gross, right? You can have a $14.99 bottle of wine that everyone loves for whatever reason they love it, right? It's jammy and, and then you can be the $80. But no one friggin knows what's in the $80 bottle of wine unless they've had it before. They're buying it because of identity, I'm an $80 bottle of wine buying guy, or I'm the practical $14.99 This is perfectly good table wine, and it's going to do the job I needed to do, which is to make the back parts of my eyes feel a little number for a moment right after about three glasses. So I'm gonna get two of these, because the numbness comes on faster when you can put, you know, it in a big gulp cup.

Pualena 44:35

Right? Awesome. This has been so eye opening, incredibly informative. I think people are gonna love this. And to your point, if you were wondering if they were gonna love you or hate you, I'm pretty sure they're going to feel a little bit more oxytocin after this episode.

Ryan 44:54

Maybe, let's look for the complaints. Let's maybe we get a Reddit started about how much of an adorable person I am.

Pualena 45:02

It will have crickets, I'm sure. Yeah, share with us a little bit about your services, your business, and how people can learn more about you and connect with you.

Ryan 45:12

I’m really blessed to be surrounded by 83 partners now at the Wizard of Ads, we also have a not for profit school in Austin, Texas called Wizard Academy, and I match make clients in with the right teams. Sometimes I'm on those teams. Sometimes I'm not, depending on the situation and what I can actually bring for value to the teams. A lot of the time, I'm a mentor in those environments for both the client and the and the partners who are on the on the on the on the case, as it were, and we do three big things. We figure out what the strategy is, business strategy, and how that ties into how we're going to market it, what we have for unleveraged and leveraged assets, and how we can put those to use, what your values are, and how we can highlight those. And if you don't have values, to start doing what I've done today, which is start having you being encouraged to start looking back at your original commander's intent and and how that and how that has translated into where you are in your business today, be it a new business or something that's established. And those are the consulting side of the fence, really. This is the advisory, it's the counseling in a lot of cases, and then we're tying that into how we're going to write that creatively, because the words we use we agonize over, and we have very, very specific strategy on how we do that, so that your ads don't sound like ads, because if they sound like ads, you've already lost, right? But we have to follow certain rules to make it make sense for the customer to be able to reconcile that thing so that more people aren't knocking on your door in whatever way they do. And then, and then we've, over the last 35 years, had the ability to buy just an astounding amount of mass media. So we say, instead of trying to get other people to buy your mass media for you, we're going to negotiate your mass media for you under our agency brand, which gives you national rates. So you're going to get astoundingly good deals as a local business if you end up needing mass media, or if you're using mass media currently and want a better deal. So we we more than pay for ourselves just in that but more importantly, we put the words together that are going to execute on the strategy that matters. This could then get you noticed and keep you noticed, and then help you start thinking about your business in a different way to, you know, forge forward and actually grow the business and get out of your own way and level up the way that you've been trying to whether you're a sub million dollar company, you're $100 million company, we've worked with clients to this day that exceed a billion and who are under a million.

Pualena 47:47

Incredible. And how can people find you? How can they learn more? Get in touch with you, all the things.

Ryan 47:53

Yeah, my websites, ryanchute.com, and that has the conduit to all the things that I talk about, think about and, and, and work on and my socials are @wizardryanchute, and you can find me pretty much anywhere.

Pualena 48:07

Phenomenal. You have a lot of great content out in the world right now. So I hope anybody listening that's interested go just search for Ryan, listen to some of his interviews. You were on the Lisa Nichols show, right?

Ryan 48:20

I was, yeah, Lisa Nichols and I have actually become friends. I talked to her today for an hour. Yeah.

Pualena 48:25

Amazing. She's awesome. I was super stoked to see that great interview. Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for just helping people to reframe this space. It feels very uncomfortable, kind of scary.

Ryan 48:38

Sometimes. Yeah.

Pualena 28:39

Yeah. It's just a joyful, useful tool to grow your business.

Ryan 48:46

And it comes from a place of knowing. I live that way, and I'm so excited to be able to share that with people, to let them know that there is an opportunity, that universe that you wondered about. It's real, and you can have it.

Pualena 48:59

Ryan, thank you so much for being here. I look forward to staying in touch. Thank you.

View Details

In this empowering and heart-centered episode, Christina Braun, founder of Eye Shine Beauty, shares her journey from beauty enthusiast to industry leader with over 14 years of experience. Christina opens up to host Pualena about her mission to help women feel seen, confident, and beautiful in their own skin. She talks about the importance of creating a safe, inclusive space where every client, regardless of skin tone or experience level, can ask questions and receive customized skincare and makeup guidance without judgment.

Christina also gives us a sneak peek into what’s coming in 2025: a series of online makeup and skincare courses designed to teach foundational routines tailored to diverse skin tones and types. With passion and candor, she calls out the lack of inclusivity in the beauty world and explains why true professionals must be equipped to serve all clients. Pualena and Christina also discuss how setting healthy boundaries—like protecting Sundays for rest and recharge—has been a game-changer for Christina’s business and well-being. This episode is packed with powerful insights on beauty, business, and balance—and it's a must-listen for anyone ready to feel empowered in business or beauty.

About Christina Braun

Christina Braun is the founder and owner of Eye Shine Beauty, a beauty and skincare studio dedicated to helping women feel confident, radiant, and authentically themselves. With over 14 years of experience in the industry, Christina specializes in personalized makeup and skincare services that celebrate diversity and empower women of all skin tones and types. Known for her inclusive approach and passion for education, she is launching a series of online courses in 2025 focused on foundational beauty routines. Christina is also a strong advocate for work-life balance, building a business that prioritizes both personal well-being and exceptional client care.

Resources discussed in this episode:

Smashbox Cosmetics

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Contact Christina Braun | Eye Shine Beauty:

Website: eyeshinebeauty.com
Instagram: @eyeshinebeauty
Facebook: @eyeshinebeauty
Linkedin: Christina Braun

Transcript

Christina 00:00

Entrepreneurship teaches you a lot about yourself, about others, the possible negative thoughts that you have, I think even not feeling good enough, actually for a while, even stories look different. So for success, for me, looks different from someone else. And success, to me, is having a balanced business, which means I'm working four days a week, four or five clients a day, and I have a thriving garden. That looks like success to me.

Pualena 00:35

I am so excited to be with you today, and it sounds like I say that every time, maybe I do and I mean it every time. And you, you were just saying, I think you and I need to speak at least once a week for the sole reason that, like the entire universe vibration gets higher when we're together.

Christina 00:57

Absolutely, yes it does. Yes, it's a thing.

Pualena 01:00

Yeah, your energy is just so incredible. And from the moment we met, it was like over a year ago, was the first time we connected, right?

Christina 01:09

Yeah, it was.

Pualena 01:10

Yeah, I've just, you're one of my favorite people. You are a, just incredible human. You have a phenomenal business, and I cannot wait to share you with the world.

Christina 01:19

Oh, I'm so excited. Thank you so much. I think the same of you. I'm so excited. And you, you do everything, just so, with intentionality. I just love, since I've gotten to know you over a year ago, like you are one of you're just amazing, I'm excited to be here. So thank you.

Pualena 01:37

Likewise. It's too bad we live so far apart, or else I think we'd hang out all the time.

Christina 01:41

We really would.

Pualena 01:45

Yes, yes, we were like the same person, but just, you know, different universes. Yes, exactly makes sense. Amazing. Well, I would love for you to share with us, us being me, share with me and the people listening who you are, what you do, what your business is, and why it just lights you up.

Christina 02:12

I love it. Well, I am Christina Braun. I am the owner of Eye Shine Beauty, and I have been in the beauty industry for over 14 years now. I started right away. And I feel so passionate about helping women feel better in their skin. And over my years in the beauty industry, I've come across a lot of faces, a lot of personalities, skin tones, skin challenges, all the things. And a question that comes across is, oh my goodness, Christina, I can't wait for you to work with celebrities. And I have thoughts about this, and I'm kind of just gonna tell you this, since the first time I ever received that comment, I was like, I love that, and I know that like that seems so exciting. And of course, those makeup artists who live that life, I love that for them, but that is not my mission at all. I think that every single woman who sits in my chair, means the exact same to me every time, meaning I don't have to work with celebrities to feel like I'm working with someone special. So, working with every single woman that sits in my chair and going through different challenges and life struggles and skin things and not finding the right undertones when it comes to certain makeup products, I get more joy out of that than working with someone that has a celebrity status. So I just want to start by saying that. Every single person is important.

Pualena 03:42

I love that so much. Yes, we should all be treating it's that. It's like your, what did they call it? 100 true fans, where, instead of a million people in your circle that you kind of, you don't know any of them at all, and you don't, you know, like, appreciate your 5, 10, 100 people, as if they're celebrities. I love that.

Christina 04:04

Yeah, so I honestly, I, the joy in my business is helping business women, I help a lot of moms, I help a lot of nurses find longer-lasting makeup, finding better solutions when it comes to skincare, being more being more aware of ingredients that are in skin care products. I think the beauty industry is not dying. So there's always something, which I won't lie definitely feels a little bit overwhelming. And I love social media, TikToks, Instagram, all the reels and videos. But beauty, the beauty industry, is not one size fits all, so I really like to make sure that when I'm working with the client, I am working with the face that is in front of me, and what might work for me might not work for you, and it's really just about customizing everything I do, so anything to do with skincare and also a licensed esthetician, so I do a lot of skin services. It's such an honor working with different skin types, skin challenges. It's so important to have a space, have a safe space, that a client can feel like they can ask their dumb questions.

Pualena 05:15

Oh my gosh. That's huge. That's huge because I think this is something that people, once they hit a certain age, they're like, oh, I should know this. I should have, I should have learned this, you know? And then they go to YouTube, and YouTube is a black hole where they're not looking at you. They don't know your skin type. They don't know your skin tone, right?

Christina 05:33

Yes, they don't know the skin story, absolutely. So I love an in-depth consultation with a client, especially a new client. I get to service clients virtually as well, so they don't have to be with me in studio, but it's a lot more helpful, of course, to be in studio, but I get to service clients that are virtually as well, but you really are listening for the pieces that you can help with. I think I've already mentioned this to you before, but one of my pet peeves is if you call yourself a professional makeup artist…

Pualena 06:10

Oh, that. I thought, don’t look at me. Do you have a pet peeve?

Christina 06:14

I’m gonna throw you out underneath the bus. No, I'm just kidding. No, I it really bothers me when others will say, I'm a professional makeup artist, but they can't provide makeup services for all skin tones.

Pualena 06:32

That happens?

Christina 06:34

Oh yes, oh yes. Oh actually, to the point where, when we get booked for a job, if it is a deeper complexion model, they will come with their own makeup, because they have been scarred in the past by other makeup artists who said that they could provide this service and they don't even have the right color in their kit. That kills me. I never take offense to that, because that's not my story. That's their story. That's what they've been through. It's not anything to do with me, but it kills me that we are calling ourselves professional makeup artists, but we aren't providing the services for all skin tones.

Pualena 07:12

Yeah.

Christina 07:13

That really bothers me. Yeah. So it's, and I don't know if it's a Pacific Northwest thing, it doesn't sound like it is, but…

Pualena 07:22

I’m sure it’s not.

Christina 07:23

Yeah, it's, it's sad, it's Ick. I don't want that kind of vibe. So all skin tones.

Pualena 07:27

Yeah, and you have shared with me in the past like little tips that really showcase your experience, your passion for everything that you just said, skin tones, eye color, skin types like you, the way that you feel about your approach to this, like, I love it so much, because it's not necessarily about it is about the beauty. Like, right? It's that kind of, it's beyond vanity, I think, is what I'm trying to say. Because when you feel beautiful on the outside, and you actually have things that work for you. You stand up a little taller, you show up a little brighter, you have that confidence inside. I'll tell you, getting ready for this podcast, I did put on a little bit more makeup than I normally do, because I knew I was talking to you, and I have been so productive this morning sitting by myself, like I'm not talking to people, I'm not in front of anybody, but just the the idea of just like, getting ready and being presentable and feeling that that confidence, and I think what you provide, allows that confidence to actually manifest itself. Because a lot of times we're like, oh, I don't really know what I'm doing, but I know that I have to put this on to like, look better for people, and your approach is not looking better for anybody else but the person that's in front of you, that like you yourself inside.

Christina 08:55

I love it. It's so true. Yes, no, it's so true. I'm so glad you said that, because I am a person who believes makeup is so fun. You can be creative. You can express yourself all the things. But I am not the makeup artist that is like you have to, you should do, you whatever. If you don't want to do it sounds great, whatever makes you happiest. That's all I care about. I am not going to be the one that's like you have to do this. This is the trend. This is x, y, z. Now will I also say, though we might omit certain things because colors don't look the best. Color Theory is a huge thing, and it's a big thing on social media, is the color analysis and finding what colors make you look better. So I'm saying, if you want to wear makeup and you want to do it the right way, like that, is what I love to do. So you nailed it. And it's, it is something I'm so passionate about, is I actually worked with a lady that came to me and she she was going for a job that was very, very important to her, and she was like, I just want to be interview ready. I'm going to have a few interviews. I just want to look my best. And she nailed it. She did it. So we. Got her the right colors, just to feel like more polished, more pulled together, more professional, and she got the job. And it's in those moments that I get to just be able to help someone feel the best… the best, their best self, and it puts them out into the world in a better way, like I've always said sometimes when the way you feel in your skin shows in your your friendships, your marriage, your relationships, your career, whatever it is around you, and I even think about the days where I just I don't feel good, I don't feel the greatest. I'm like, Okay, well, I'm not saying fake it through everything in life, because I'm, we need therapy. I'm not saying fake everything, but I do think there is something about pulling yourself together a little bit that you're like, Okay, I can be a little bit more productive if you feel like crap. You think you look more like crap, but if you put a little effort in you're like, Okay, well, this is what we're working with today. I'm that person so.

Pualena 11:07

Totally, totally. I love also, and we’ll dig into the business stuff and all of that. But this is just to me. There is so much more to make up to, like the beauty industry, than just what you see on the surface. And that's why I'm like, I'm focusing on it so much because it's something that you have brought into the fold of your business, and you save people tons of time and money, also. Like, okay, for example, last time we spoke, you told me that brown eyes you recommend, like, purple tones for eyeshadow, which is funny, because this morning I was like, I have no purple because I that's not something I would ever buy. Because I'm like, ew, purple, but I get it. Like, I totally get it. And would I have ever learned that without you? No. And if I did, it would only be because I spent 100 hundreds of dollars on different palettes, and I just happened to try purple one day, and was like, Oh, my God, look at that. But you right away, like, I would only need to get, like, two colors and save myself hundreds of dollars, right? So to have somebody with an expertise like yours, experience like yours, and that one on one service. And I love that you can do it virtually. Because I won't tell you, I'm gonna a book of consultation, so I can get some purples at work for me. But it's, it's so, it's so beautiful, just your whole approach to your business. So I just want to highlight that, and just make sure people know that, like, if they're working with you, it's not just about the surface level makeup and beauty.

Christina 12:51

Absolutely, I love yes. And people, when they think about color, they think we're thinking bright blue eyeshadow, like we're thinking past generational time. And so when I say purple, I'm like, Oh my goodness. Like, even a plum mascara is so pretty brown eyes, okay? Or purple liner just a little bit on the bottom. It depends on the eye shapes. I mean, because I love to be really nerdy, when I'm looking at faces, I'm looking at shapes everywhere. So, but everybody could get away with wearing a liner of some sort of all shapes and colors. But purple liner for brown eyes is so pretty.

Pualena 13:33

Oh, my gosh, okay, for anybody watching, this is going to be on YouTube. It'll, it so like people are going to be listening, but they're also going to be watching, if they're on YouTube, what shapes do I have?

Christina 13:44

I love this. Okay, put me on I love this. Put me on the spot. Okay, so you, so what you're looking for is the points on the face. So I imagine. I don't have to imagine anything. We're just gonna imagine something like a pencil, a makeup brush, a string, however you want to look at it. The first question I always ask myself and look for, is the length of my face, the length of my face equal in length and width, or is it longer than it is wide?

Pualena 14:12

Definitely longer than it is wide.

Christina 14:14

It is definitely longer. So if you were long as you are wide, so if like, you moved this and you were the same all the way around, you would mimic more of a round face shape, so you're definitely not a round. Also, I have to give credit where credit is due. I spent many years working for Smashbox Cosmetics, and they were the one who taught me this whole. Yeah, they really dig into face shapes and all the things I can just make it short for you, you're definitely more of a oval face shape. Oval face shape, for sure, means that you your temples are not as wide as your cheekbones. You can see when your head is straight on, your cheekbones are a little bit wider than your temples are. And your jawline is wider than this, this part of your face right? Yeah, to your chin, yeah. So it comes in. So that would mean it comes in, and then it gets wider, and then it comes back in. So you do mimic a oval face shape for sure, yes, which is the ideal face shape, which I don't love saying that, because I think all shapes, colors, sizes, all the things, they're all good in my book. But typically, when we're looking at faces, maybe someone who has a really strong jawline, which means that they're more square faced, they usually have a really dominant point right here. Typically, women won't like the points here. So we want to contour and shave those off with contouring colors. So you're just looking at the face to see where the points are that you want to shade them so they mimic more of an oval face shape. It's all about optical illusions.

Pualena 15:54

Interesting. I've always been fascinated by contouring, and I've never been bold enough to try it. People change the way their entire face looks with it. It's pretty wild.

Christina 16:06

I love the videos of even a nose contour making it crooked. And they're like, What the What? Like, even as a makeup artist, who does this daily, I'm like, Yes, girl, that is the power of contouring. And also, when it comes to contouring, you have to have the right colors. So an easy way that I explain this to my clients is, in order to contour, what we're doing is we want to create shadows. So if you were to step outside your house right now, out in the sun, when you look down, what color is your shadow? It's gray. So a lot, not a lot, but the majority of women that I see, they bring in their makeup to me, and they're contouring with a bronzer, and a bronzer is warm, it mimics the sun, it does not have a shadowing effect. So when they're contouring, that's where things start to look not quite right.

Pualena 17:01

Oh my gosh. I always thought it was just like a darker color from your foundation, like a few shades darker.

Christina 17:09

Bronzer is you are right. A bronzer is warmer. It's usually three shades darker, about than your natural skin tone color, or your foundation color. But in order to mimic an actual contour on the face, you have to build a shadow, and a shadow. When you step outside and look at the concrete, it ain't warm, it's not orange, it's gray. So that's like, that's a big part. I think a lot of women, that's our first thing that we sometimes we miss that step. I'm looking at the colors they're using, and it's typically, that could be a big culprit of why things don't look quite right for them.

Pualena 17:46

Oh my gosh. That is so interesting. See? Expert advice. I love it.

Christina 17:54

Yep.

Pualean 17:56

It is invaluable. Wow. Okay, okay, yes. Well, I, okay, you. I mean, we could do this for days, and I would love to do this for days, and let's do it for days. And for the sake of the podcast, I would love to chat a little bit about, just the business side of things. You and I have spoken in depth about your business, and I love that you have come up with some creative ways to serve your audience, in addition to kind of the more traditional things that you do, and if you're comfortable, I would love to just have a chat about that, and a chat about, like, really honestly, like, what are you looking to shift in your business? How are you looking to evolve your services? Because I think you have an exceptionally creative approach to this, in an industry that typically is very like, I have one client locally, sitting here physically, and that's sort of like the the most I can scale is however many people that I can provide the service to in a one I want, one to one situation.

Christina 19:06

Yeah, yeah. I love it. Thank you. Yes, courses, courses. So I am in the works of launching courses. I don't have all the back side of it quite yet figured out. I don't, so I don't have all that laid out. But what I can tell you is what they will kind of look like. So I will be launching courses in 2025, so I'm so excited about that. And it what I'm first going to be launching is kind of like the basics when it comes to foundational parts in your makeup routine. So I already pre filmed these videos. So I actually will be working on different skin tones in my course videos. Because I think that is super important. Because when I say a color corrector for someone near my skin tone, that color corrector is not going to be the same for your skin tone coloring. So I think it is important to touch base and have different skin tones. So I'm really excited that I will be having three different videos that will be launching soon. And it really is. It's a more fair complexion, a light medium, and then a deeper skin tone. So just so we can kind of understand the basics. And when I say Basics, I'm talking about, I'm talking to the woman who feels overwhelmed. This is how it usually comes across. Is when you go into a makeup store, it all of a sudden feels like the cereal aisle, like you walk down the cereal aisle, and cereal is horrible for us. Anyways, the horrible analogy, but I'm gonna take it anyways. There is 17 different Shredded Wheat, like 17 different raisin brands, and you're like, and you're like, Okay, well, now what? I think they're all the same, but the courses will be a little bit more streamlined for exactly your skin tone. And so I think there's so many great products on the market. There's so many new things that are always coming. So I just want to stay up to date on those and be a safe place, like I mentioned in the beginning, being a safe place where people can ask their dumb questions. I never take offense to the dumb questions. To be truthful, those are my favorite questions. I won't lie, because for me, when I hear that question, I think I built the trust.

Pualena 21:22

Yes!

Christina 21:23

That feels big to me that I, that automatically sends that flag in my head like you did it. My thing was to be able to build trust, and that's my main concern. So that also means I will not be giving you things you do not need, because that does not build trust. And I come from a retail background where I worked on hundreds and 1000s of different skin tones. Anyone who would walk in for a makeup console, you had to just work with the client right there on the spot. I think that helped me a lot, kind of catapult my business forward, for me in the best way possible. And I'm not going to give you something you don't need. I'm just not that girl. I'm gonna give you something because I really do feel like it's the missing part for you. And I think, do I personally have a 13 step skincare regimen? Yes, I do. But do I think that everybody needs to start there? No, absolutely not. But being an esthetician, I have my hands on a lot of things. Yeah, so I went down a whole rabbit hole there, but.

Pualena 22:26

Love it. I love it, and it's exactly in line with what you do. And I think for you to have creatively brought that solution to life and been so inclusive with it, I'm curious. Okay, we'll get back to the courses, because that's so awesome. But I do want to know what are some quote, unquote dumb questions, which, by the way, that reframe of like, wow, I promise. I will get back to a question here. But I just want to like, you said so many great things, and the reframe of like, if somebody asks you a dumb question, it means that they trust you. I want everyone to hear that. Because a lot of times when we are in the service industry of any kind, and you get a question that kind of makes you roll your eyes, and you're like, oh, again, that you know that energy is not necessarily productive, and it is an honor for somebody to receive a question that you might think is is silly, because they see you as a trusted space. I love that so much. I'm gonna remember that forever. Okay, back to the question, What? What is an example, or a couple of examples of, like, dumb questions that people often ask you when you're like, Oh, I'm so glad you asked me that.

Christina 23:41

That's a great question, if I had to think, probably over all the years, the most like sought out questions would probably be more towards, like, what colors to use. I think is like a repeat question. I think we all should know what colors we look best in. That's, that's, that's definitely something that always comes around. But for the dumb questions, I hate to even say that I get my air quotes. I'm not saying dumb please. Yes. Gosh, not even knowing this is what they say. I don't even know what my skin type is. What does skin type mean?

Pualena 24:18

I don't either.

Christina 21:19

Yeah. So see, yeah. So what does skin tone even mean? Like, what I'm saying, I'm like, well, your skin tone is this, you're a warmer, neutral, like, whatever. No, sometimes they'll look at me like, I don't even know what. I don't even know what skin tone means. Like, what is the definition of skin tone? Or they don't know their skin type. So skin type, what we're saying is oily, are you combination means that you're oily in certain spots and you're more dry in other spots. That comes across a lot, especially in the Pacific Northwest. So skin type is more about your concerns. I have larger pores. I deal with blackheads. I get occasional breakouts, things like that. But dumb, oh my, this, like, if I had to even think about more…

Pualena 25:05

I'm sure I can ask you questions that are probably dumb, like, like, okay, color I would imagine, because this is something that I also have no idea about, okay. Blush is there of like, a good there's so many different kinds of blush, and I have so many different colors that I like, I don't know what to wear with what, when do they all work for me. There's a little like, a pink and a dark red, and they all look fine, I think. But I tend to like, gravitate towards one over the other, you know, like, like, but I would never ask that, because I just wouldn't think about it. I've just acquired all of these colors, and I don't know what to do with it, right? Like, is that kind of like along the lines of…

Christina 25:44

Yes, yes. And I think exactly what you said the majority of my clientele, they say it's just what I know, and that's all I know now. And now I'm aging, and now I'm 40 instead of 20, and I'm still doing the same thing, and now I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing, and we didn't learn. Certain generations, I think know more than other generations, so it kind of depends on what age range I'm working with, but my favorite thing is to start at the basics. So listening to you say, well, I don't even know what kind of blush I would use, that tells me we need to learn about the basics, which are, what is your skin tone? That's all the basic part. What is my skin tone? The big thing for me too. I just did a makeup lesson in person for two ladies together. They were sisters. They came in yesterday, and both of them, they're probably early 40s, late 30s, if, like, somewhere in there, and they, exactly what I said. They're like, we just been doing the same thing. I don't even know how to what colors to pick. I don't know what products to use. I'm so overwhelmed. So we sat and we learned the basics, which are, again, the skin type, because hearing you, for example, say, well, what blush would I use? Because there's powder, there's jelly, there's liquid, there's mousse.

Pualena 17:00

The jelly is like blowing my mind.

Christina 17:04

Yep, 100% Yep, it's a thing. Yep. So it is. It's about learning about your skin type and what works best for you. So if you're oily skin types, you might like a cream and a powder over top for longevity. I mean, I could go down a whole rabbit hole, but there's different ways to make product work for different skin types. So, yeah, it's just, it's always, it's, there's so much you could learn. And most of my clients, when they leave, they're like, Okay, I can't wait to book another one, because then they end up wanting to play with color once they know what colors they look best in. And I think when you said you like something with a little pop of color, I would lean into that. Because I do think that we actually know what we like and how you feel in a color matters for sure, lip colors, for example, when a client is like, I want to do I want to wear a bold lip color. I'm like, I love that. Count me in. Let's find it. But if I feel like, you, you have to wear that lip color. You have to wear that lip color. Do not let that lip color wear you. You have to pick the right colors. So we, I always I say we, because I have a small team that works with me. And so I always say, like, if she feels uncomfortable in her lip color, she's gonna feel like her lips are walking in that room before she ever gets in there, like she just thinks that everyone's looking at that lip color. It's not right. So finding the right lip color is that's it. Like you you want to feel good. You want to feel good?

Pualena 28:40

Oh, I've totally done that. I'm thinking of a lipstick that I own, and every time I put it on, I'm like, oh, my God, this is too much. And it's like, dark. It's almost like purple, purple.

Christina 28:55

Love it though, yes.

Pualena 28:58

I'm not there yet. I don't think, but I get it like you. It can wear you. It really can.

Christina 29:06

Lip color and brows are probably one of the most opinionated faces or opinionated items on the face, lipstick and brows. Those are probably the two most opinionated things. And I would say if it's purpley, burgundy, marooney, that's the vibe I'm probably getting. That's what that color is. Light in the inside, oh, just the edges are a little darker, just so you can start to get comfortable with the color. Because I bet the color is probably good from the sound of it, but it just feels like too much all at once. Yeah, like, can you walk me there? Can you take me on a first date? This is like too far for me. Lighten it a little bit. You'll start to get used to used to it. I also tell my clients, if you're going to try something new, do it when you get home after work, put on that lipstick color or whatever, or try that new makeup technique and then just wear it around the house, and then wash your face off at night, obviously, before you go to bed, but especially with my wing liner girlies, like, girls are like, I want to do that look. And I'm like, I love that for you, I would highly recommend so that you just do it at night when you get home, so that you don't feel like you're just catty Wampus all day long. You got to get used to it. Some of us make it look like it's so easy, and it's not always like that when you're at home. So I always say, if you're going to do something new, do it at night time, and then you can wash it off like just start to get used to it. I guess.

Pualena 30:38

So smart, although I feel like I'd nail it at night and then, and then in the morning, it'd be like, what? What's happening? Practice makes perfect. Totally.

Christina 30:47

No, no. Practice makes progress.

Pualena 30:50

Good one.

Christina 30:52

Because don't, yeah, don't get hooked up on the perfect. Don't. Don't do that to yourself, because it really is about progress. If you're not going to get it right every time, and it's just progressively going to get better. It will. It really will. Yes.

Pualena 31:00

You guys see why I want Christina in my life, daily. This is amazing. I I cannot even express to you how, how much I'm so grateful that you're in the world doing the work that you do. And as much as I want to keep talking about makeup, because I have a million questions, I will book myself a session and not utilize my podcast for my own selfish gains. And I'd love to hear you know, as a business owner who has you have so much experience in this industry, both as someone who has worked for big brands and as an entrepreneur, and I'd love for you to share you know, what are some, some things that you've learned along the way that you'd share with other makeup artists who might be looking to start their own thing, or maybe do like a side business, or even not makeup artists, but just entrepreneurs in general, any any lessons that you're excited to share?

Christina 31:56

Absolutely a big thing, and it's funny that you're asking me this, because I find myself having to remind myself of this part is everyone's story is going to look different. I think, in the creative and the beauty industry, and just being in this industry, it can be easy to look at others and see what everyone else is doing and feel like maybe you're not enough, or you're not doing enough. I think I have a mindset of community over competition all day, every day. I truly, really believe in that. And I think that when we help each other grow, we can all grow forward even further. And a big thing is leaning on people like you can learn from people, because they do have different stories. So instead of looking at it from a point of view of, oh my goodness, she or he is so much better than me. Look at it as the hope that you can have, the hope like I can get to that point, or if I can learn from them, we can be better together. Maybe there is something that you can give that other person that you don't even realize. Because we're we are our own worst critic, and I am 100% telling myself this loud and clear, because it's been an interesting week for me. So it's just, we all go through the things, it ebbs and flows, but learning to lean on the people that you can trust and you know that are going to tell you the truth. Also, I think that's that's really huge, and there is enough work to go around for everybody. I refuse to live in the mentality that there's not abundance for everybody. It's not in my book. It's not in my book. I don't believe in it. I do 100% believe that there is something for everybody and there is enough work for all of us. I really do. So for me, it's about about community and just building together. You can go far by yourself, but you can go further with everyone else, like you can go further with a team. You can go further with the people that support you and love you and are surrounding you. And I've had to learn that many of times. It's a good reminder for myself, but that's with any business, I think, a boundary that I put in place in 20– so, 2025 I did it starting 2022 I started taking Sundays completely work free. I think as business owners and entrepreneurs, we get so wrapped up in the grind seven days a week that you sometimes, life myself, learn the hard way that if you do not take the time to check out, the time is going to come where it's going to make you….

Pualena 34:48

It’s gonna check you out for you.

Christina 34:49

100% Yeah, checked out with no option.

Pualena 34:53

Yeah, I love that. I don't love burnout, but I love that boundary. And that you've created that for yourself.

Christina 35:01

Yeah, yeah, so it's a really, it's just, it's entrepreneurship teaches you a lot about yourself, about others, the possible negative thoughts do you have, I think, even not feeling good enough, you know, actually for a while, even just again. Like I said, stories look different. So for success, for me, looks different from someone else. And success, to me is having a balanced business, which means I'm working four days a week, you know, four or five clients a day, and I have a thriving garden that looks like success to me. I want to be I want to be present. And I over the years, especially pre COVID times, doing 50 plus weddings in a year is a huge blessing. But it came with a price. And thankfully, during COVID times, I finally got to start gardening and kind of building the boundaries, like, okay, if I get to create my own life, what is it going to look like for me? And I was ashamed for a while that I wanted a simpler life, a simpler life where I traveled less, because I used to travel a lot like my I was my schedule was very full, and it was such a blessing, but it made me realize, once I hit a wall, these are all great things, but actually, this isn't what I was created to do and what I, my purpose is, and I'm just living this, this really cool life, just just to look like I have a good luck, yes, yes. So it just it looks different for everybody. So I definitely no longer ashamed that I want a simple life. I love my home life. I have. I was just telling a client the other day, I don't get FOMO. I do not get FOMO when people are traveling, doing all the things I'm like, I love that for you. I love that for you, that is not for me. And I used to beat myself up that I just wanted to have a simpler, simpler life. I still want to love my clients and work with them and serve them that is truly I believe what I have been gifted is to be able to to serve clients that means so much to me, but I can't do it seven days a week, 24/7, and no one should be doing that.

Pualena 37:21

No. And that's why we have our own businesses in the first place. We're like, I want the freedom to make my own choices and work when I want and work with who I want, and we all fall into the trap of working way too much with people we shouldn't be working with. And so for you to have that awareness is beautiful. And something you said maybe a few minutes ago that I want to loop back to is like surrounding yourself with people who get it and who have your back. That is very different from someone who sits and listens to podcasts and audio books all day or like, because I asked you to share, what lessons have you learned? Right? That's like a, you know, a question that is going to be listened to on a podcast from somebody who probably has their own business. And you shared some things, you don't work on Sundays, which is a sacrifice for you in your industry, because there are events on Sundays. So I want people to understand that you give up business to hold that boundary and yet like myself. Okay, so I, I'm on calls constantly all day long, and I'm also behind on my work constantly, because I'm on calls. And so for probably 12 years now, people have said, theme your days, block out entire days where you don't have meetings. And I was like, Yeah, okay, cool. And I would kind of do that, and then my schedule would get full, and people would be like, do you have time to meet this week? And I'm like, Yeah, okay, my Wednesday. I'm not supposed to have call on Wednesdays, but do you have time Wednesday? You know, like, and it just creeps in. I heard the advice a million times, every podcast, every book, every person that I talk to. I had to kind of like suffer to learn the lesson, which I'm not saying is something that everybody needs to do. But if you are actually surrounding yourself with other humans, that is so different than just listening to all the things. Both valuable, but I think people really need to hear what you said and like create a community, or join a community, or just find trusted resources in your life to help you move forward, achieve Your goals, build your business in a way that's sustainable and healthy.

Christina 39:46

Yep, it's so true. And my people around me, my therapist, is one of those people. I'm learning a lot about myself in the last like year and a half, that there is sacrifice, no matter what you do. But what is the sacrifice? Me working seven days a week, but giving up Sundays and you mentally feel better. This is what worked for me. This is this really, really helped me. Was when I realized the clients that I get to serve and that sit in front of me and I get to love them and hear their stories and make them better human beings. If I don't take care of myself, they do not get the best of me. They didn't sign up to not have the best of me. And I do not want to serve the world if I cannot be at my best, me being at my best means that I have to put boundaries in place, because I think of the faces that I serve and love, they deserve me at my best. Granted. Do I have bad days? I'm exhausted more than others. It's wedding season right now, so my inbox is flooded. I'm I have all these blessings so but in order for me to be the best, you have to learn where your boundaries have to go in place. You have to.

Pualena 41:00

I love that. Do you ever like I'm just trying to think, as a business owner, how difficult it would be to say no to business. Are there ever exceptions for your Sunday rule?

Christina 41:12

Yes, there is. I can think of one right off the top of my head. It was to serve a nonprofit, yes, donating makeup and things like that. I did do that a Sunday, maybe about six months ago.

Pualena 41:24

That’s important for people to hear too, because it's like there's so many all or nothings, and you could, like I would, I'm not saying to make exceptions to your boundaries, because it's so important to hold them and be relentless with it, and we always have flexibility. If it's something like that, right, if it's meaningful to you, if it's your family who asks you to help out on a Sunday, right? Like, there are, there can be exceptions, but you have to make that decision and like, understand, like, what? What will you bend for? Because if you don't know what you'll bend for, you'll break for everything and everyone but yourself.

Christina 42:05

Absolutely yes, yes. It has to be something. Well, it's usually that case it was a nonprofit that it pulled to my heart, so I was like, Yes, I can. I can help. I can do what I can, but to do facials on a Sunday or do weddings on a Sunday, it's a no go. It's an absolute no go. Now, when I say no, another thing that does make me feel better is when I say no, I come with three solutions. So when I'm saying no to a client, because it falls on a Sunday and I just can't, I just can't because it I just can't, and I also, I'm learning I don't owe anyone explanations, which is very hard for me, because I want to love you and explain to you, it's not you. It's really because I will not be good for the rest of the week. But I, when I say no to a wedding client in particular for a Sunday, I will say, I recommend these three ladies that are open, they do have open availability on Sundays, just because I don't want to know to feel like I just closed the door on you. I just want it to feel like maybe a half door, like you're not you can't step in, but the top half is open. So I'm giving you solutions like it makes me that's how I'm mentally…

Pualena 43:15

Redirecting.

Christina 43:16

Yes, I'm just redirecting you so you can't come in here, but there's three solutions for you. So that has definitely helped. Is when I say no, I definitely feel like it makes me a better business woman when I can say no and give a solution for sure.

Pualena 43:34

And they're still getting a great experience with you, even if it's one interaction.

Christina 43:35

Yes, yes, because you might get clients from that, though. I have also they've appreciated how I've responded. Also, I love the client that's like, I love that you have that boundary. That is my favorite kind of client, because we get those responses. But the other types where they're like, that's totally fine. I actually have another wedding I'm attending. Would you be able to do my hair and makeup for that? Like, I mean, you never know where it goes, so just set your no and set it free. That's what my therapist says. Play it and set it free.

Pualena 44:14

Oh, I love that. Oh my gosh. You are such a blessing. I like just, thank you. Thank you for being my friend. Thank you for all that you do in the world. I, we this went by so fast. I we're gonna do it again. That's, it's happening, and we're gonna chat again really soon. But for those who are looking for more information about you, who want to get in touch with you, have questions for you, where can they find you?

Christina 44:38

Absolutely, so Eye Shine Beauty, and the eye is spelled e-y-e, so Eye Shine Beauty and it's eyeshinebeauty.com, eyeshinebeauty on Instagram, eyeshinebeauty on Facebook, but my website would have every link they would need, or be able to contact me from there as well.

Pualena 45:02

Brilliant. Thank you. You are amazing, one of my favorite humans on the planet, and we're going to do this again soon.

Christina 45:07

Thank you so much.

View Details

Host Pualena chats with Courtney and Kelly of Screws + Stilletos about the red flags of working with marketing agencies and why taking ownership of your marketing is better for business. Courtney and Kelly explain how they’re helping small business owners take back control of their marketing by providing clients with the tools, templates, and training needed to empower them and scale their businesses sustainably.

From their flagship course Market Like a CMO to actionable tips on simplifying tech stacks and cutting unnecessary costs, this episode is packed with real-world insights—including a case study where a client improved their ad ROI from 3.5x to 11.8x by optimizing SEO.

Courtney and Kelly also share their belief in transparency, simplified systems, and client education as the foundation for scalable growth. Whether you're overwhelmed by marketing tools or just want smarter ways to work, their advice on conducting a tools audit, mapping your conversion funnel, and gathering feedback through market advisory boards is gold. Don’t miss the chance to book a free 15-minute strategy session or attend their monthly Spotlight webinar to learn from industry experts and elevate your marketing game.

About Courtney

From working with Fortune 500 companies, marketing agencies, and small businesses, Courtney has a passion for marketing and strategic business development, which continue to be a driving force behind every venture. She’s an Entrepreneur with SEO, SEM, Analytics, and Web Design as her base, and a Marketing degree from Bentley University. Her marketing and business consulting experience quickly expanded to encompass email marketing, SMM, print, E-commerce, CMS, and business development.

Courtney is a veteran of the digital agency world, working with powerhouses like Google, Amazon, and Wayfair. She is no stranger to helping businesses grow their online presence, brand awareness, ROI, and revenue through consulting on and implementing new strategic initiatives. Whether it is behind a table saw or computer, she is a chameleon dedicated to evolving and growing with businesses to drive success. A strong believer in the saying, “let the numbers do the talking,” she is also committed to driving that growth and success through informed decisions.

About Kelly

Kelly is a seasoned small business owner and entrepreneur who single-handedly built her first business to $5MM in annual revenue in less than 3 years simply by utilizing her experience and natural abilities in marketing, sales, and online development. She has first-hand experience in all areas of digital marketing as well as the importance of inbound marketing and online platforms for the growth, success, and survival of small to mid-sized businesses.

Kelly is a talented marketing strategist and project manager with a proven track record in formulating and implementing creative client-facing solutions that drive increased growth, brand awareness, ROI, and revenue. She’s known as a fast-talking, high-energy, strategic Renaissance woman who has worn every hat imaginable from CEO, CMO & CFO, to SEO, SEM & SMM Specialist, to Director of Operations, Website Developer, VP of Marketing, to Delivery Driver, Packer + Seamstress—all while finding a way to stay positive, motivated, and smiling every step of the way.

Resources discussed in this episode:

Screws and Stilettos: Monthly Extra Spotlight
Hubspot
Market Like a CMO
Go High Level
Zapier

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Contact Courtney and Kelly | Screws and Stilettos:

Website: screwsandstilettos.com
Market Like a CMO

Transcript

Kelly 00:00

The whole thing is, you have this Rolodex of options for when it is right for you, which might not be today, might not be ever, but you can go through and pick what works for you. You should, nobody should try to do everything, because then they're just gonna fail at everything. You just need to pick what works best for you.

Pualena 00:21

Welcome to the RBL Media Podcast. Courtney, Kelly, thank you so much for being here today.

Kelly and Courtney 00:28

Thank you for having us.

Pualena 00:30

Absolutely. So this interview is sandwiched between you guys. You just got off a call. You've got a call at the top of the hour. I think that is like, let's start there, because you have a phenomenal business. You help business owners grow and scale. And you just told me something really epic, because if I was a business owner and I was like, I don't want to live like that, like, that's that sounds really difficult, but there's a caveat. There's a reason why you do it. Tell us. Tell us all the things, who you are, what you do, how you got here and why you schedule things back to back.

Courtney 01:03

I will tell you the juicy part of that first. Before I even tell you anything about me. So the reason we do that, so essentially, I am certified in the neuroscience of peak performance and flow, and with that, you are in different like brain states, essentially when you are in a deep flow state versus a group meeting state. And the reason we do this is to protect essentially, our deep flow so we start our days at the where we want to end our day, and we work our meetings backwards. We only accept meetings on Tuesdays and Thursdays, but we do them back to back to back. All of our clients know this. We constantly reminding them when they want a meeting on Monday, Wednesday or Friday. We don't say no. We say we can meet. We can talk about that on Tuesday, or we can talk about that on Thursday, or yes, we have some more time on Tuesday or Thursday or whatever. We just stick to it. But that gives us our Monday, Wednesday, Friday, to do our heavy work, for our clients, for our own business, or to spend time with our kids, because we both have young ones, and Kelly, I'm gonna throw you under the bus here, has a eight year old who has intestinal failure, so for her, it's being able to get some of those moments with her daughter, who's hospital-homebound and sitting at home, instead of just like her constantly being in the other room, she gets to go spend some time with her when she wants and when she needs. So it gives us that full, fluid autonomy over our schedule and our time during the week. But we also can just sit there and say, like, all right, all of these things I need to take care of based on today's meeting, and I will do them on Wednesday, or I will do them on Friday, essentially. But the other thing too, that people don't realize is what the time it takes to be present in a meeting isn't the only time lost. It's all the cognitive load of you thinking about that meeting coming up, the prep it took for that meeting, and then there's a minimum of a 23 minute offload period that happens when you leave a meeting state, and that group flow state is what happens in a meeting. So when you leave that, it's 23 minutes essential coming off of that before you can then enter into, begin to enter into a deep flow state. So it's really like your one meeting actually consumes about three times the amount of time. And that's why it's so important. If you can back to back to back them, it also forces clients say, like, I'm sorry. We really gotta go. We have another one. Because again, work will expand into the time that you give it, and if you only give them 30 minutes, they come more prepared. Something we're starting to try with our clients is some of them, we're going to be reducing the meetings down to 15 minutes, because we noticed the first 10 to 15 minutes, we're really getting to it. And then they're like, all right, and then just regular chat happens, which is fine…

Kelly 03:51

And we love chat, but at the same time, sometimes we all feel and whether, no matter who is, that you have to fill the 30 minutes, then have to fill the void. And so you're like, just sitting there being like, well, I really need to go, but like, I feel like I'm obligated, because you booked this. You don't need to be there. And it's like, in it's nicer to be able to be much more efficient. Feel like you were super effective, and then let then choose to just drag it out, because you have more time afterwards and enjoy it and not feel the pressure of being like, I've sit through the next 10 minutes. You actually have a nice 10 minutes if it pushes over.

Courtney 04:22

Yeah. So there's multiple reasons why we do it, but all of it comes down to increasing our output, increasing our time for our own families and our own lives, and also being able to have that control of our schedule and reduce our stress. And we just tap into the neuroscience of things and our physiology and how our brain actually works. In order to do that.

Pualena 04:46

I love that. I needed to hear that today because, like, I was just talking to one of our team members, and I was like, I can't get this thing done because I have calls peppered throughout my day all week long, and I have. Like hours, like an hour between 45 minutes, between 15 minutes, between.

Courtney 5:05

And it's useless.

Pualena 5:06

It's useless. It feels like such a waste, and I can't get, like, little things done.

Kelly 05:09

You're like, how do I what do I tackle on my to do list? When I gonna get into something that can't finish? And lose your thought on it?

Courtney 05:15

Maybe I'll get a little snack. Like, you just start coming up with other things to do.

Pualena 4:19

Fold laundry!

Kelly 05:20

What’s really nice, is like, even on Wednesdays, there are work days, like, our free work days. Liked yesterday, Courney’s in California, I'm in Florida. So it was, like, five or six o'clock my time, so three o'clock or so her time, and we were on the phone back and forth, and she's like, you know what, today's like, I’m at peak capacity today, I'm gonna pick out my kids and go and like that. Go ahead. You don't have any meetings you have to do. You got all your work done, and you can just allow yourself that ability to just check out at three o'clock in the afternoon knowing that you've done everything you needed, and you're lined up the next day. And you don't have to just sit there, what's my next thing? What's the next day? Or I have to wait this meeting. You can actually be much more efficient and satisfied with it. And if you're having a bad day, you can just call it a bad day and move on.

Pualena 05:59

Oh my gosh. I feel like you've just sold your services just now. Like, I don’t care what you do, I just want to work with you. Incredible. Well, share with us, you have a phenomenal business. I love the name of your business. I love what you do. Every business in the, on the planet needs what you offer. So share with us what that is, how you got here, all the things.

Kelly 06:24

Yep, Court.

Courtney 06:26

So we are Courtney and Kelly. We are our business is Screws and Stilettos. We also have Market Like a CMO, which is a subcategory of it. But really what we do is we teach people, we teach small business owners how to bring their marketing back in house. And we this all stems from I'm from the agency world. I was a part of the handcuffing and the making sure that we have enough ties on them, that we own enough assets, that they can't move on without us and still do what they're doing, or that we haven't given them enough of the strategy to be able to do it themselves. So they are…

Kelly 7:06

Or take it to another agency.

Courtney 7:07

Yeah, so they’re fully dependent on us. I just didn't align with that style. So over time, we ended up deciding, you know what, we're going to do the opposite, and we're going to re-enable people, and we're going to teach them the strategies. We're going to get them set up with the foundation in a completely open format, none of these locked templates, no hidden anything. So we just set people up with their foundations of where they actually should be. Train them on all of it. They have access to everything, down to their CSS, and then let them go and do it, and they come back to us, sometimes with questions or just like something else that pops up, that they want help on, or they want to learn, and they come back to us. But ultimately, our goal is to re-enable people. And part of this also really stems from the fact that we had a small business. We grew it to $5 million in three years, completely organically. And the big one of the biggest things with that was there really isn't enough guidance of experts, people that really know what they're doing out there to just help you get over that hump or where you're stuck, or teach you that one thing without having to sign on to this entire massive subscription, or whatever it might be, or deal with a bot like chat, which is only…

Kelly 08:24

And the hard thing about being a business owner, small business owner specifically, is you're kind of a sucker. Everyone's looking to go for you. You are vulnerable. You're not sure where to go, and you just really want to succeed, but you don't have the bandwidth, the ability, the expertise, to know where it is. So you go, naturally, you get way too many things. You get involved between things, you split yourself way too much. And inevitably, you're no longer doing your business, you're marketing, you’re HR, and you're not actually doing what you started or you you're really talented at you're really just occupying your time, and you're not in any way being effective with it. So, our goal is that is it? One of my favorite things to do is to get, give me your whole like give me the tools, send me every silly thing you do, every little thing you do, and I'm going to come back to you and tell you the three things you need and get rid of the rest, because I guarantee you don't need them, and you're spending money on all of them just because they look flashy all it means they did a good job targeting you, just like you want to do the same thing for somebody else. So if you see this new tool, it just means they're effectively targeting you. And your the biggest sucker, if you go for it, you don't need them.

Pualena 09:32

So what are, what are some common things that you that you hear from people, and you're like, let it go.

Courtney 09:38

Oh, man, I would say that one of the biggest things is that they have one tool for SMS, one tool for email marketing, one tool for their website. Like all these things.

Kelly 9:50

And then they go, we need a landing page. Let's go to High Level. But why?!

Pualena 09:53

It's so much recently, go on.

Courtney 09:58

So a lot of what we do is. Like something that a platform we absolutely love is HubSpot, and because of the fact it's an omni channel platform, you can do your social media. We run ads through there. We do websites and landing pages, and all your CRM stuff, all your workflows for your email marketing, literally everything in one place. But that isn't, it's not just about the fact that it's all in one place, which is huge in itself. Also just the fact that, like, you have a few less logins to remember.

Kelly 10:29

Or you know less things to charge bank account every month, and you forget about it.

Courtney 10:33

beyond the like sheer obvious things, you also are just getting so much more intelligent information. I mean, one HubSpot contact profile includes the moment that they came to the site, every single thing they did, every conversation they had with your sales team, every email they received, whether they opened it, what they clicked on, like every single detail.

Kelly 10:55

And even before you know their name. You find their name out, their history from before, all their history, any interactivity they did is now there. So it's gonna say profile made on March 1, but it's gonna have February or January history of whatever they have in their cookies from things they've done, interact with your ads, your social media, whatever. But the biggest thing of all is that every tool you have is basically sitting on an island, costing you money. It's giving you something that you like, are feeling out of but the whole purpose of these tools, the whole reason AI exists, the whole reason why you spend money on them, is they're supposed to be doing something for you. They're supposed to be doing the work for you, and you're supposed to be directing it. If you have tools in all different platforms, you are not doing that. You instead, you are bleeding out, and nothing is actually connected, and nothing's actually doing what you're spending the money for, which is intelligently giving you predictive data, giving you suggestions, learning this information, build like doing your nurturing and you're generating for you and people. You can do it from an extreme, where you say, I'm gonna micromanage everything and tell it what to do, or you can say, Go free for all have fun. This is like, who I'm looking for, and start targeting and marketing. But the whole entire point—marketing is not supposed to become your job. Even if you're a CMO, your job is not marketing. It's strategy, it's business development, it's lead generation. It's not the marketing side. It's not putting together email templates every day. What the whole point is that this marketing tools are supposed to do those things for you, if you're like if you don't have them all together, the tools are doing their job, and you're spending the money, and it's not connected in a cycle that can actually move anything for you. So instead, you're just putting money into a black hole. And yeah, it looks great. I have 50 leads from this tool, but guess what? Those 50 leads are going to die because we're inevitably you're not going to follow up with them, or you're going to not be able to follow up with all of them efficiently, or you're gonna drop the ball when they reach out a different platform, or you don't even know that they're already on social media, or all these places, it's not giving you the whole story. And so the whole point of having marketing tools is to have everything be simplified and be communicating and be intelligently working for you. And that's where you need really simplified. If you have 13 tools, and you have a something different for your email, something different for your social media schedule, something different for your website. If your website, your landing page and your blog are not on the same platform, you gotta stop no matter what your those are all doomed because they have to be together.

Pualena 13:16

So, Zapiers and half of them are broken.

Kelly 13:19

Zapier should be your the last resort. It's great tool. I use it for a bunch of clients. It should be your catch all for those that are not able to be done otherwise, and that should only be rare. You should always be able to have something that ties in directly, unless there's a rare occasion you need Zapier. And that's because the whole point of these tools is to do that. And if you're, they're not tying in, that means you have too many tools.

Pualena 13:42

Amen. Tell us. Tell us about this, this sort of segregation of responsibility, as you know, even if you are a CMO or like, what? What are the strategies that we should be focusing on? What is the work that we should be doing day to day, and what exactly should our tools be able to take on for us? What does that setup look like? How do we set ourselves up for success in that space?

Kelly 14:07

I have one thing I can start off with, then Court, you can take over. The biggest thing you have to realize and swallow is you are no longer your opinions no longer matter. You are no longer gonna come up with the next Nike swish. You are no longer gonna come up with the big slogan. You can have 10 different ideas, and nobody cares anymore, because the world of TikTok has taken over all of us, and all we care about is what we want, when we want it, which is now or yesterday, and how we want it. And by the way, we want it for free. Everyone's expectations are so unrealistic, and also it has to be within 15 seconds or you failed. And I'm going somewhere else. I'm gonna burn you like at the stake in front of everybody. It's such a different dynamic. What you need to do as CMO now is to stop everything you've learned and start listening. The most valuable thing you have is the data to tell you what people want, and you have to listen and follow that data. You need to set your system up intelligently and easily. Leave, not don't close like running reports all day. Set it up to give you the information. Like we have one client, they get six prospects emailed to them every morning. It says the top six people that you should go after today and what you should do with them. All of it's automated based on what their ecosystem, what their back end does, and it just automatically goes to them every morning in their inbox, and you need to have the tools, listen and and suggest things to you. So then you can learn and develop. If you're trying to get something to 100% you're failing. You have to go to 80% and then you have to get it out there. And the best success you're going to have is by listening to those people and let them decide what's perfect and be willing to change and alter that. CMOs, you very intelligent, very, I mean, do people have expressed me that you'd die for and they're, I used to want to be the editor in chief of a magazine or newspaper, and I learned pretty quickly that it was probably a dying option. What's interesting is that it's very much the same, like the CMO used to be this creative, really strategic, insightful person, and now that person has to quelch their inspiration and their experience and turn completely and listen. And that's where a lot of CMOs and business owners are lost at this point, because suddenly they're no longer in the driver's seat. They have to be following everybody, which is the users, not the competitors.

Pualena 16:18

It's a different kind of creativity, right?

Courtney 16:21

Yeah. And another thing that CMOS don't do, I don't see enough of these days, but is a way to ensure more success in your products and your business, is by testing things out beforehand. So getting a Market Advisory Board, or whatever you want to call it, of 5 to 10 potential exact targets of yours, and then keep asking them to literally be a part of this Market Advisory Board, or whatever you you're you want to call this board, but essentially, when you go to have an offer, when you go to have a product, you introduce that concept to them, ask them for some advice, Not feedback or opinion. You want advice because they feel they are much more open to sharing with you, and much more open to also feeling like that was a collaborative effort, and therefore purchasing that little ego boost. But, but you want to ask them for advice on the topic, on the concept, on the general idea of the offerings. Then you want to actually show them what you've put together and get their advice on that, on how it can be improved. Again, it's just advice, but you are getting real feedback from real customers before you launch something live and have it flop because you didn't actually understand what language do they want to use, what features do they actually care about, versus what we think in this bubble, that we've created, this vacuum, that we've created this idea, what, what do they actually give a shit about, versus not? And that's really what you want to focus on, and you can… That's what a CMO should really be doing, is like, how can we set up these campaigns for success? Let's not launch ad campaigns with language we think they want to use. Let's talk to sales. What language are people using on calls? Let's talk to our Market Advisory Board. What do you think of this ad language is there like when our product comes to mind, what? What are the biggest benefits we're getting from it? What are the pain points we're selling? Use the language they give you in that advice, and tailor your ads to that, so when that ad comes out, you are speaking the exact language of your exact target.

Pualena 18:29

And when you are a startup, or you're, you know, a solo entrepreneur, how like, what's the best way to find an advisory board with the resources and networks that you have?

Kely 18:40

Who do you know, respect, and admire? There's your person. Especially like, honestly, my time, my dad's friends, like people have known my whole life. Those some people, I'd say, because, guess what? They've had a lot more experience than I am. They're going to be honest with me. They're not going to sugar coat it. There's nothing in it for them. Where I there, it's going to be skewed or anything. It's just real. And it's just like, it's in your best interest. It's either not It's not fluff.

Courtney 19:05

And then if you're looking for some test subjects too, that are like, truly the ideal persona, that's where depending on your product, honestly, LinkedIn is a really great option, because it's not so flooded with DMs that people just assume that this is all going to be a sales pitch, and you can get to them by just messaging them. Or what's even more effective is sending them a personal video and just saying, like, Hi, I'm Courtney. I'm with Market Like a CMO. I am, like, creating this new product that helps X, Y and Z, and I think it'd be really helpful for you. Would you like to be a part of my Market Advisory Board, where you get to give feedback on this, and maybe you get let them test it for free, and let them be a part of that and give that advice. But you can use simple things like LinkedIn and just reach out to people that fit the exact target, ideal customer persona that you want.

Kelly 20:00

And also people who didn't like leave that didn't pan out. The best way to have that turn into the one of the best relationships you have is when they didn't hire you. And you say, but they would have been a great opportunity. You go back to them and say, hey, just what? I have a new product coming. I'd love to hear your advice. I really thought that you could bring a lot to the table. I loved all the things you're doing. And just don't, you're not asking them to pay you anything. You're giving them things for free. But now suddenly that per that failed opportunity, that that lead, that did not, that did not close, is suddenly going to be one of your best advocates, because you just gave a big ego boost, and they're getting word of mouth is most powerful thing you have. They're going to be the one starting to spread. And they didn't, you didn't have to work with them.

Courney 20:36

And you just won them back.

Pualena 20:39

And you're creating this really beautiful, hopefully lasting relationship where they're ready, they come back to you. I love that, that’s so…

Kelly 20:48

One of my favorite day, this sounds weird, is the day we get fired, which means that and then they say fired, and quote, unquote, it's when a client is we've gotten everything. They're ready to go. We've set them up perfectly, and we like push and farewell say, let us know anything in the future. And so often we send them something like wine glasses or something. We're like, great, cool. But then we just that's, that's my day of success. They we got their system where they need to be. We got them set up. They feel confident, comfortable, they're ready to go, and now they are not tied to anybody that's under they have complete control. They have complete adaptability, and they can come back and when they have a new idea, but they're not strapped to us. It's not a retainer for life. You're not. I think it's so wrong that the world of subscription based that's consumed, all opposed for, you don't know anything anymore, like my own Microsoft Word that I thought I bought in law school, apparently I didn't, because the subscription is still going, going, going, and I went to cancel it recently, my $6.99 a month, and they shut off my email from law school, and I can't access it without re setting up my desktop old word to get to it. And now I do $9.99 a month for something. I just need to occasionally access this email. The whole world you is so infiltrated with this hook you and keep you for life that you have to be willing and be excited about the times where you cut those ties. And that's one of my favorite things to do, because I'm like, no, I'm not your burden. I'm I got you everything you needed. You're just ready, like you're set up for success, and that's what makes me the most proud.

Pualena 22:21

I love that. And as a small business, right? Like you are no longer tethered. If somebody's on a subscription with you, it's almost like you have to be available all the time for them. So, it’s total freedom.

Kelly 22:34

Yeah, and some day shits gonna hit the fan because they woke up in bad mood. They're me on Microsoft Word. I'm just satyin, I don’t want to pay $6.99 a month for something I don't use. And then the email happened. So suddenly, this thing that never bothered me, and now I'm mad about it. I'm bitching about it, not the only time I'm bitching about it, because it burned me, and that subscription, which you just thought was easy money, suddenly is now becoming a negative experience, a negative influence, negative reviews, and it could turn something that could have been a great experience and an awesome farewell to a negative experience. And that's really, I genuinely. I'm really more sensitive or gentle about it. I'm really aggressive about hating agencies. I think it's criminal, like what they do. I think they set people for failure, and then they just hook you in so you are tied up for life until you inevitably fail, because they're that's their goal. You are their cash cow. And I just think it's really a wrong world to be in.

Pualena 23:28

Yeah, I love this direction, and I think it's it's it empowers both sides, like and I would love to learn more about the process that you teach and how you do empower your clients to really take that marketing into their own hands and what their options are. Because the other thing that you mentioned just almost in passing a few minutes ago was, like, a smaller business with less capital is not able to invest in these big marketing opportunities, right? And so I'm like, Well, do I just have to wait until I make enough money to actually, like, get my name out there. What are my options? And how can I grow my business while I'm still so small?

Courtney 24:09

I think, I think it really comes down to leaning into your foundations and making sure that first, first and foremost, again, we've mentioned the tools thing, but we do a tools audit, we do conversion funnel mapping, and we really kind of get a gage of like, where is your income from and coming from, what is your lifetime value to customer acquisition costs, your LTV to CAC, where? What tools are you using, and where are the opportunities here for you to be able to grow and scale the most efficiently and effectively, while keeping your customer satisfaction the highest. And of course, we always want to be customer centric in everything that we do, but we want to be able to make that base foundation. And if you can't, if you don't get that base foundation set up right, you are just scaling a mess into a bigger mess. And a lot of what these smaller companies do is when they bring on these other tools, or they start having, like, 10 or 12 different funnels of ways that they're trying to bring people in and get them on board, they essentially are over complicating it. And so whether it's from the starting with like increasing your performance and your productivity with peak performance, neuroscience strategies, going into the tools audit, going into your conversion funnel, mapping and simplifying everything, because simplification is what's actually going to be the most scalable. So that's really where we start. Is like, let's simplify all these processes, all these habits that you have, all these tools, which ones are the most effective? Let's start there and start building from there. Then we get you with a solid foundation that you know how to manage. We have a whole Market Like a CMO course. So we go into all the things. So SEO ads for like Google, Meta, we go into the the peak performance, we go into reporting and HubSpot changes and all the things, but very specific to what works the best based on all of our the last seven years of our consulting, but also our last 18 and 19 years of marketing experience that we've been doing and how we build businesses. So we really take all that stuff that's in our course, but really the thing that is the most impactful is that you get us and we will help guide you through that foundational setup and then through the training that you need. We will point you to the best training option, whether it's a video or whether there's someone else out there that might be a better fit for training you on X, Y and Z than us. We will always point you in that direction. But the biggest thing is you will never get a college student, college graduate, that is learning for the first time this month on your dime, teaching you how to do it. You will only ever get from us experts in ourselves or the expert partners that we've worked with at times. And that's really what it's about. It's you. You get you simplify, you get that foundation set up, and from there you you get your training, and you get handed to kind of the package, and you're off, and you go.

Kelly 27:17

And also peace of mind, because a lot of times people come in, they think, oh my gosh, there's this new thing I heard about, where my competitors are doing this and all the stuff, and we really push that if you have more than one social media platform, you have too many. Most likely you have one that's going to be successful, if anything, and then the other ones can just be clones of it in some variation. There's tons of ways to automate that, but outside of that, don't even try to do other ones. If you have ads, and you are not setting them up so that that that every impression that person saw is completely carried to their whole experience. And if you have solid SEO, so you're not paying premium dollar for your paid ads, because your SEO is. If that's not the case, then turn it off right now. Stop spending the money, because I guarantee the leads you're getting are not worth what you're getting if they're even good leads at all. Set up the foundation, clean up the system, make it as cheap as possible. Improve your SEO so you're paying less for your paid ads. Then turn it on and Courtney, I utilize stats, but one client we took, they were spending a lot of money. They were brought in, we were do their ads, and when we the first time we presented to them as to what we were going to do is that we sort of post the picture of PowerPoint. And the thing is, a black hole, it was, this is where your money's going into a black hole, turn it off. And we turned off all of their spend for how long Court?

Courtney 28:29

So, we turned it off for six months, actually. And that's where we to give you an example of how bad it was. You typed in, and this is an e-comm brand, a retail brand. So you typed in, it's been around for a long time. It's not a newbie. Yeah, 30 years. They've 30, almost 40 years they've been in business at this point, but you typed in their exact brand name and their exact product name, and their competitors showed up.

Kelly 28:51

Yeah, they did not. They did not.

Courtney 28:55

In images, their own product didn't show up, but their competitors did. Oh, so what we did is we turned it off…

Kelly 28:59

They're spending a lot of money.

Courtney 29:00

They're spending eight grand a month. So we turned off their campaigns. The campaigns weren't the problem. We turned off their campaigns. We rebuilt their system.

Kelly 29:10

Sorry, real quick. Everyone thinks it's their campaigns. They think I need a new creative, a new message. I guarantee you don't. I guarantee there might be some optimizations to do there, but that's the last thing you should touch. Is off, is changing your campaigns because I guarantee there's actually outside causes that are actually making your campaigns fail. Go ahead, Court.

Courtney 29:28

So, what we did is we we revamped their SEO, we revamped their website, made it more user friendly, optimized every image the page, the metadata, all the content within the pages. We optimized everything, image, file sizes, everything. And then what we did is, after six months of doing this, we trained them up on it, we launched the exact same campaigns at the exact same…

Kelly 29:53

Nothing changed. Nothing.

Courtney 29:54

At the same $8,000 a month budget. And what happened is, the $8,000 a month before was driving $28,000 in revenue. So that was a 3.5 ROI. And when we relaunched it again, exact same campaigns, exact same spend, they were now at an 11.8 ROI in making $94,000 on their $8,000.

Pualena 30:19

Holy smokes.

Courtney 30:20

Yes, nothing from the ads.

Kelly 30:21

Yeah, because their actual foundation, their website, was not where it needed to be to then make those ads work. And what people don't realize is, if your website's shit, if your SEO is bad, if your images aren't named, you're paying more for every impression, for every click, than the person next door. Your competitor is going to pay less money for your brand name than you're going to pay because your score is weaker. You need to have this you're sending somebody to a page that does not have an overlap with that ad. If the keywords aren't there, if your metadata is not there, you're going to pay much more for that one click than anybody else is going to and so it is worth you're actually saving money by not spending money, because you're fixing your foundation to then actually make it work correctly.

Courtney 31:07

And if I could just jump in with one big red flag, if your agency, especially an ad agency, tells you that they're going to put your landing page on this yourbrandname.net or your brand name.org, and your brand your net regular website is like brand name.com, that's a flag. That is not in your best interest. Do not do that.

Pualena 31:32

Why would anyone do that?

Courtney 31:33

They do it so they the the agency owns the domain.

Pualena 31:34

Oh.

Courtney 31:36

Yes.

Kelly 31:38

Because they have all their templates in the back end. They're gonna say, Oh, hey, Courtney, I'm gonna make this great landing issue. They're gonna take, here's my five in my stash. I'm gonna take this one, put Courtney's name and face on it, launch it in five minutes, and all the credit is going to the agency. You're getting a little bit of juice. You're literally there. But the whole point, the all the value, all the brand, all the recognition, the domain juice you have, is completely gone, and they're getting credit for it.

Pualena 32:01

Why would anyone say yes to that all the time?

Courtney 32:06

Oh my. Well, it'll be X amount more, and it'll be like, three more weeks lead time if you want us to try and create this on your platform that we don't have access to and all this stuff, but instead, we can get you up and live in 12 hours or 24 hours, if you want to just do instead of, I'm going to throw out a real person's name, suncoasttrimclinic.com instead you go suncoasttrimclinic.net we can now get your landing page up in 24 hours, or it's going to take three weeks.

Kelly 32:35

But you're going to pay 10 times more for every single lead than you would if you had it on your own site.

Pualena 32:40

That’s insane.

Courtney 32:41

Yep, and they do it. And the thing is, you don't have any of that connected SEO juice from your site.

Kelly 32:46

You don’t even own the domain. They do.

Courtney 32:48

It’s all on islands. They're treated as two different entities by the search engine. Your quality score is lower. You're paying more. You're just not getting that like the traffic, that engagement from that paid…

Kelly 33:02

Not even the learnings of these people who are visiting, they don't fill out a form. If you had on your own domain, you at least know where they came, but you don't know.

Courtney 33:09

But all of that SEO juice, or that engagement, that traffic, all of that stuff, is not being shared across your domains, which makes everything less effective. So it might look like it's doing well, but it could be doing 30, 50, 60 times 60% better by having it just on your own domain. So huge red flag. If they want your landing page on a separate domain, fire them before they even get started.

Pualena 33:35

Wild. Thank you. You probably saved a lot of people a lot of money. I didn't even know that thing that they did.

Kelly 33:40

Oh, yeah, it's very common. It's the trap. And Courtney, if you want to just give a quick I always think it's interesting with her agency experience, the breakdown of how much your where your dollar is actually spent on a month. And she, I mean, it's it, go ahead.

Courtney 33:51

I would say about 20% to 30% of what you're spending is actually on real work. The rest of it is account management, it's project management, it's some reporting, it's the inter-agency, administrative stuff. It's like 20% to 30% real work, and that's it.

Kelly 34:11

So, you're paying 10, it'll be 10 man hours a month, two hours max on what’s getting done, maybe three on work. The rest is all back end stuff. Because guess what? You're their profit margin, they're looking the same thing.

Pualena 34:24

And there are your ads on top of that, right? That's just the basic.

Kelly 34:26

No, yeah, that's just your sort of base fee, yeah. Then you're spending actual money in the ads. And guess what, they're going, no matter what happens, they're gonna spin a stellar report. I've seen so many reports come through when we're working with the client, and they have a different agency, and we keep our mouth shut respectfully at the time they're sitting there and they're like, oh, your social media grew 200%. Well, guess what? When you have two and now you have four, then it's like, not that hard for followers, like it’s all relative but they're gonna spin it phenomenally when they're like, when they say you have, well, you're probably like, say your sessions went up 20% or 200% Well, guess what? The duration for people visiting is about three seconds. They're all the wrong people. They did nothing. You spent all this money. It didn't actually convert into anything. And they're always going to carve out the good story, leave out the others. And that's, I'm whole heartedly against that. Like I think it's completely I just think it's criminal. You're paying somebody to do something. They're going to tell you the right story that you want to hear, so you keep paying them, but it's actually not the truth. So when we look to the clients, like, all right, so here's good, here's the bad, and here's the reality. And like, this went well, but this is and you have to tell them the truth, and that what's really the issues. Otherwise, it's never going to get move. They're never going to move they're never gonna move a needle. They're never gonna succeed. And I feel like, one thing that we sometimes like, Oh, this is gonna be one day where we're gonna tell somebody, well, they don't want to hear but guess what? That's the most important day, and that's the one where they're gonna look back and be the most grateful for because that's what we could actually make a difference on.

Courtney 35:56

And you know what? A lot of what we do, too, is like for the clients, where we do manage things, because some people just want us to manage it anyways. For the clients, where we do manage it, if we see a dip in ads, we go head first and like, dive in. It doesn't matter if it takes eight hours overnight for us to figure out.

Kelly 36:13

Courtney finds rabbit holes to go down.

Courtney 36:1

I know, I did that last week. But why is it that we're seeing this dip, and how can we fix it? Not, not, oh, that dip didn't happen. But in the thing is, it's also not unique to marketing. I was even just talking with my friend the other day, who is a research scientist. She focuses on genetics and oncology cures, basically. So she is in the gene testing of oncology space, and there's a startup she's working with, and she was just talking about how some of the scientists in her group tried to present one month of the clinical data as the results, because it was the best month, whereas the other months were shit. And it's not unique to marketing. People do this all the time, but it's wrong, and it's just, it's not giving you the full picture. And if there's a downturn, honestly, that's not a bad thing. That means there's a huge learning opportunity. What is going on, and you're better off catching it now than you are when you scale and you've lost a hell of a lot more. So just be honest about it and dive in and figure out what's going on.

Kelly 37:25

And you know what's amazing about bringing up the ugly and sharing it is now you've given your client, the person, the control to make decisions, and if that decision is not listening to us, getting rid of us, closing their business, that's all okay, because the end of the day, it's their business. It's their decision. And if you don't give them that information, you just took away their control, their their it needed. It's their yeah and, and if there's plenty of times where we've talked to somebody, and after the fact, when you like, you know they're better suited somewhere something else or somewhere else, or they're better like, coming back in a few months and do something different, and that's okay. And I think that that you have to be okay with that. You have to also accept that just because you talk to somebody or you think they'd be a good fit, that they are the right fit for you. Ultimately, it's your business, your decision, and they need to let you have control of that.

Pualena 38:14

Absolutely, I love this so much because you're you're offering a true education. Like, to your point, I think we all, at this point, we're aware that there's those, you know, snake oil sales people out there that, like, in the marketing space, it's kind of..

Kelly 38:31

That’s all TikTock, that is all snake oil, like, it's crazy.

Pualena 38:35

It's crazy and like, so now, as consumers, I think that's why there's been such a boom in DIY, because they're like, You know what? I'm just gonna YouTube it like, let me just figure this out on my own. At least I have control. I don't trust anybody.

Courtney 38:48

But guess what? You also don't know what you're getting on that end.

Pualena 38:53

Exactly, and it's so just like, there's just so much noise and to offer what you do in in a way that is so transparent and just so customer centric. It's beautiful. And I would say to anybody out there listening to this podcast, yes, like, please contact you guys if this is resonating, or at least, at the very least, find someone that you respect, that you admire, that you trust and invest in a solution that makes sense for you.

Kelly 39:24

No, I think you said solution, and it made me think one thing we do off to people, especially ones who are complete strangers, is a 15 minute Solution Call, get on high. What's your problem? Where are you? And we'll tell you what direction to go. We're not going to end it with a sales pitch. We're not going to say, sign on the dotted line. We're going to be honest with you. And if that honesty turns into another follow up conversation. That's great. If it doesn't, that's perfectly fine. But one of the best things is Courtney, really does the majority of them is, but these the School Library. So she has probably 200 videos this time, this point, with all different topics. At any time, somebody's asking us for something or want to train people on things we make, usually something or two or four minutes. It's not like you're signing up for life. Yeah, you have a few minutes. And then there's a summary and a guide steps of it, and it's just all going to our School Library. And so if somebody signs up, then they have full access to it for life. And you can go, you don't try to learn it all today, just pick what you need today. And then six months from now, you say, I'm going to really work on my email marketing. Go in and watch the email marketing videos. Months from now you say I need to figure out how to my email marketing is suddenly crashed, my open rate is horrible, why? You go in and I can just blab all day long about why your email marketing changed and what you need to do. The whole thing is you have this Rolodex of options for when it is right for you, which might not be today, might not be ever, but you can go through and pick what works for you. You should, nobody should try to do everything, because then they're just gonna fail at everything. You just need to pick what works best for you.

Pualena 40:48

Absolutely, that 15 minute fit call, I think, is a huge green flag for people like the fact that anybody that says, I want you to work with someone that works that is appropriate for you, and I will also make a decision if we're a good fit to support you. That speaks volumes. It's not like we can help you. Give us your money we got you. You know, it's, it's a really, I love that direction that I think a lot of you know smaller coaching companies and courses and programs are going towards it's such a win-win, and it's you're encouraged to, like, go and do your research. Talk to multiple people, explore multiple programs, see what works for you. I love what you offer. How can people learn more? How do they know maybe, if they might be a good fit? What are? What are some of those things that you can share.

Courtney 41:39

Sure, so they can, if they want to schedule a strategy session with us, they can go to marketlikeacmo.com/strategy-session, you can just go ahead and schedule it right there. But really. What it comes down to is we work with companies that do have a significant recurring revenue, small businesses.

Pualena 42:00

What's significant?

Courtney 42:01

So, sorry, small businesses. So ultimately, it's companies that are about $50,000 to $150,000 a month got it is what they revenue is. And the reason we work with that is because usually they're of a size to be able to make moves and make an impact, and for us to be able to help them with the fullest. That being said, if someone smaller still wants to have a strategy session, I mean, I, I was part of a co-ed business fraternity in college, and we recently had one of my brothers, quote, unquote, reach out to me and say, like, I'm lost. I don't know where I should be in my career.

Kelly 42:37

He has every degree you could ever imagine now, now he doesn't know the direction to go, and completely outside of, like, our normal.

Courtney 42:44

Yeah. And ultimately it came down to like, you know what? Just hop on a call with us. We helped give him guidance. I helped set him up with another one of our quote, unquote, fraternity brothers, but and then he gave him some recruiting advice. And ultimately, he's now starting his own business and stuff like that. But we also know that if he ever needs anything, or he's ever stuck in that position, we've already built trust with him, and he will come back and ask for some help. And he knows that in certain realms, if he's ever just like I need to know just how to do this, one thing, he can always come to us. But at the end of the day, we also feel good that we helped him start his business, and that we didn't take advantage of him. We didn't charge him anything. We spent a few hours helping him, but that's because we also genuinely really want people to succeed, and it's something we saw was so much more difficult starting our own businesses is that it's just like, just like parenting. We've lost so much with a generational home that you no longer have that built in knowledge that's being passed down, and there's not the best way to backfill it, and instead it of parenting where you're just kind of like sitting at home with this infant, like, what? What the f am I supposed to do right now?

Kelly 43:56

Keep it alive? Yeah, your goal.

Courtney 43:59

On the opposite end of the spectrum, you have social media and these marketing influencers that have been around for three to six months and trying to tell you, this is how you do it. And it drives me nuts, because, like you actually, you know a very specific outline that someone taught.

Kelly 44:16

And that’s even if they’re being honest about what they know and where things are.

Courtney 44:19

And just this one funnel is all the the only thing you know, but you actually don't understand how this contributes to the larger, how this is scalable, what this means for your customers, how to really be in front of them, listening to them, adapting with them, that sort of thing. So I went on a huge tangent there.

Kelly 44:38

One thing I do want to say so Court was talking about the the larger number is really where they is, where they really look for our services to overhaul and really build and get them where they're going. But that being said, you can be a startup. You can be $1,000 a month. What we'll tell you is you shouldn't pay us for somebody else a bunch of money, because you should keep them money for. Yourself and invest in your education, your future. We'll help you. We'll give you some resources. We'll give you the tools. We're happy to give you direction. And don't sign up for us or anybody else when you don't have the means to do so. And what we what the biggest thing to do is simplify everything you have. Figure out what actually is going to move your needle. Focus on that. And then six months from now, if you want to go back to whatever app or tool, whatever thing you we made your shelf, then you can go back then. But first, the best success you're going to have is simplifying, not spending on third parties and stuff like that, and educating yourself. So whether it's we can you can get a subscription to our school thing and just use school, Courtney's home there, use her account in school, and don't pay somebody top dollar to teach you something that we can teach you right in there. That's where money is effectively spent for small budget or new businesses, so that they are still in control. They're investing in their education and not in somebody else's bottom line.

Pualena 46:01

Beautiful. I love it. Thank you. Thank you for doing what you do, for being so supportive, so transparent. You've probably saved several people listening to this, quite a bit of money today.

Courtney 46:13

If I could offer one more bit of advice when it comes to an agency experience, if you are part of a company who is dead set on working with an agency and outsourcing. My best advice to you is that when you are going through the process of determining the best agency for your business, ask those agencies if they would be willing to get you set up, get you running and instead of after the two to three month mark, where you lose your main point of contact, and you get that recent college grad, tell them that at that point, like in your contract, you want that after two to three months, after they've set you up, that you want to then be trained on exactly how they're doing it.

Kelly 46:50

You'll pay, you pay them.

Courtney 46:52

But you want them to train you. And that's but the biggest part of this is, whether or not you go forward with them. Doesn’t matter what they offer you. Really doesn't matter, if they are not open to considering that idea, they are not trustworthy because they don't have your interests at the top of mind. That's the biggest thing to get out of that. If whether or not you choose to go that route is totally up to you, but if they are not willing to help you get to where you need to be, then they're not for you.

Pualena 47:28

Fantastic advice. I'm going to just, you know, if people don't have time to listen to a whole podcast, I'm going to send them to the last five minutes, because this was like gold, especially for people who are out there trying to find their way. Just thank you for sharing.

Kelly 47:42

One other suggestion. Just thing on the side is that a free thing that we do once a month is Extra Spotlight. So we have one next week. Keep an eye out, because what we do is, once a month, for one hour, we bring in an expert, not us, somebody who's just really like the cream of the crop in there. It's last month's social media. This month is podcasts and webinars. Let that expert for 30 minutes, completely free, just it's just as a Zoom meeting. You sign up on our website, you they'll teach you things and give you their best advice for 30 minutes, the next 30 minutes, open forum. Any questions you have, you can show them your own stuff. You can send, like, if you send Nick a podcast or a webinar, he'll get he'll do a recording, a three minute recording for free, back to you as to what you can do better. And it's for us. I mean, I'm not gonna pretend, I talk a little fast, if you haven't noticed, I kind of jump all over the place. I am not your podcast webinar training person, because I could be probably trained better myself, but we have great connections with people who do, and that's information that we want people to know, because podcasting is a great tool. People are jumping right on it, though, but if you're not good at it, you're just wasting your time. And so Nick is really good at streamlining those types of things. So he coaches and consult people on successful actually, and seeing it at actual like events and presentations, webinars and podcasts. So it once a month is a different topic. It's always, is the third Thursday? Is it Court? I'm forgetting, yeah, third Thursday of every month. And then if you have, to leave, we'll send you the recording afterwards, but then you just have it now. You have an expert just teaching you the most important things about that topic. And if one month the topic isn't interesting, then wait for the next one.

Pualena 49:09

That's awesome. We will link to your website in the show notes, where people can get on your list they can learn about all of these things. Kelly, Courtney, thank you so much for being here today. I'm so grateful. Any final thoughts?

Courtney 49:19

We could go all day.

Kelly 49:20

You have no shortage of something from us. We don’t try to one up each other, it’s just, naturally we just feed off each other.

Pualena 49:32

it's so fun. Having three people on here is so fun. I don't want to ever do a two-person podcast again. Thank you. Thank you again for sharing. Yeah, let's stay in touch. This has been amazing.

Courtney 49:44

Thank you very much. Really appreciate it.

Pualena 49:46

Thank you.

View Details

In this motivational episode, Pua sits down with Markus Gerszi, partner at Best Hour of Their Day, to unpack what it really takes to build a thriving CrossFit affiliate. Markus shares his journey—from gym owner to business coach—highlighting the game-changing principles behind Best Hour of Their Day. He explains why running a gym shouldn’t be just about fitness—it needs to be focused on hospitality, community, and delivering an unforgettable experience.

Markus breaks down the biggest mistakes gym owners make and how refining sales, marketing, operations, and mindset can turn a struggling gym into a powerhouse. He dives into the grit, honesty, and teamwork that fuel long-term success while giving a behind-the-scenes look at Best Hour of Their Day’s fun, fast-paced culture. Get ready for insights, laughs, and actionable takeaways that will challenge the way you think about gym ownership and running a thriving business!

About Markus Gerszi

Markus Gerszi is a seasoned entrepreneur and business strategist with over a decade of experience helping gym owners build and scale successful fitness businesses. A former gym owner himself, Markus founded, operated, and sold CrossFit Active Performance, which was repeatedly voted the #1 CrossFit gym in Orange County, CA.

As a partner at Best Hour of Their Day, Markus works directly with CrossFit affiliate owners to build better businesses. His team helps gym owners refine their vision, optimize sales, marketing, operations, budgeting, and mindset, and develop world-class coaching teams. By integrating strong business fundamentals with top-tier service, Markus ensures gyms thrive—creating better experiences for owners, coaches, and members alike.

With over 10,000 hours of one-on-one coaching and more than 1,500 gym owners served, Markus is dedicated to empowering passionate fitness entrepreneurs. His mission is to help them clarify their purpose, refine their business strategies, and implement client acquisition and engagement systems that drive impact, revenue, and long-term success.

Resources discussed in this episode:

CrossFit
Affiliate University
Kajabi
Slack

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Contact Markus Gerszi | Best Hour of Their Day:

Website: besthouroftheirday.com
Instagram: @besthouroftheirday
YouTube: Best Hour of Their Day
Facebook: Best Hour of Their Day
Spotify: Best Hour of Their Day Podcast

Transcript

Markus 0:00

Are you willing to do the work consistently for a long enough period of time to make this work? It's no different than the member in the gym. Doesn't matter if someone shows up and they're 150 pounds overweight and haven't worked out a day in their life, it's like, yeah, but you're here, and if you keep showing up here for a long enough period of time, you are going to completely transform yourself, not just physically, but mentally, emotionally, and become a whole new version of yourself.

Pualena 0:30

Markus, thank you so much for being here, for chatting with me today. I've been looking forward to this for a while.

Markus 0:36

Well, likewise, happy to be here.

Pualena 0:40

We've worked together for several years now. And whenever I think about you and Best Hour of Their Day, you have always been the definition of my ideal client. I don't know if I ever told you that.

Markus 0:53

No, you haven't, but I appreciate that very much. Happy to hear.

Pualena 0:56

Absolutely. And I'd love, I'm excited for everybody to meet you and to hear your story, because I don't think I've ever actually asked you how you yourself got to where you are. I'm excited for people to learn about Best Hour of Their Day. So this is just going to be a really exciting hour for us. Awesome. Let's Do It Amazing. So yeah, tell the people who are you? What do you do, and what is Best Hour of Their Day? So.

Markus 1:23

My name is Markus Gerszi. I am one of a few partners at Best Hour of Their Day. And we help CrossFit affiliate owners build a better business, and we do that by working with them directly on everything from clarifying their vision and who they are to the obvious sales, marketing, operations, budgeting, mindset, everything in between. We also work directly with their coaches to help make sure that their coaches truly are best in class and they're delivering the best possible service that they can and when you combine having a really sound business side of things in a really sound service that's all looked at through one lens, then you get a really awesome gym. Then everybody wins.

Pualena 2:07

Epic. And are you still the only coaching program that is endorsed by CrossFit?

Markus 2:13

We're not the only one that is, we are the first, but we are the only one that does both the business development and the coach development.

Pualena 2:21

That’s awesome. And you yourself have been a CrossFiter for many years. Yes?

Markus 2:27

Yes, correct.

Pualena 2:28

Before you had, before you moved to the library, you actually had a belt hanging behind you. It looked like a UFC belt. Is that? Was that a CrossFit? Did you earn that?

Markus 2:38

No, it's not anything uh, related to any achievement other than that is actually an ownership belt. We, me and my two other partners, we each have one hanging on the wall. It's for a Best Hour of Their Day. It’s just a fun little thing we got.

Pualena 2:52

that's awesome. I saw it, and I meant to ask you about it, amazing. So from a like, I think owning a gym is something that people assume is like, Oh, it's so easy. You get to work out all day and you just hang out with your friends and you work out with them and like, what's, what's so hard about that? And I would love to dive in to not only is it not a piece of cake to operate a gym or a CrossFit affiliate, but there are things that you teach that will take any, I think about, What's that movie where like, Average Joe's gym versus like, the snakes. And like, you can run a successful business, a successful gym, you know, a boutique fitness facility. And then you can run an elite facility where people are like, they just want to be there all the time. The community is incredible. The way that the business is run is smooth. The owners are making money. They're not just kind of surviving. And I feel like that is the caliber of your coaching program, both from the business side and the coaches side, which is brilliant. So could you share a little bit about the evolution of how you developed this programming and what really stands out in terms of business development for somebody who may have been just doing it on their own, versus somebody that's able to get guidance and coaching from your team.

Markus 4:31

Yeah, happy to well, first and foremost, I want to say, you know, although the gym business may be simple, it doesn't make it easy. You know, there's far more complex business operations you can get involved in. It is really straightforward once you understand it. But the challenge is that most just fundamentally don't understand the game that they're playing, and it's where a lot of people get lost in the weeds. That's one thing. The second thing is, you have a lot of people who, you know, they're doing this because they fell in love with fitness. You know, fitness had a massive impact on them, personally and directly. And this is the story we've heard time and time again that inspired them to say, well, then that's what I want to help other people discover, and I want to make that impact. And then, because the barrier to entry is pretty low, to start your own gym, it's easy to get started, and you've got people then who don't necessarily have any experience in or understanding of the business, and unfortunately, when you've got a lot of people who are getting into business for the first time, and the majority of the industry is on a more novice end of the spectrum, as far as the business is concerned, and you have a lot of the blind leading the blind, and it's no one trying to lead anyone astray. It's that a lot of the people who become successful in this space, I found a lot of their success by accident, and that, you know, they're like, well, this is what I did, and it worked for me, not factoring in many of the other little details that really made the difference in why that strategy happened to work for them in their particular situation, in their particular market. And so that's kind of the space. And so you know, both myself and my two partners, Jason and Fern, really grew up in the CrossFit space and that we we all found it as athletes, you know, in the mid to, you know, late 2000s and you know, I just fell in love with it as as a consumer. And I was already in business development and consulting with small, typically service based businesses. And, you know, the gym I was at is… as amazing as what we were doing there was, the business was a disaster. And I was just blown away with how it kept growing and how rabid the following was there. I mean, it was truly a like a base of raving fans. In this place that was not fancy, not run well. I mean, when I first reached out, I found the website, which was terrible, tried calling, left voicemails, sent emails. Had to look them up, drive there and go there, not once, but twice to finally catch someone there because they were closed most of the day, for me to walk in and be like, Dude, I've been trying to sign up for like, two weeks. And he's just like, oh yeah, sorry. We don't, we don't do that. I was just like, wow, okay. And anyway, so I, you know, I joined, I fell in love with it, just like the rest of us. And I just couldn't believe how the business was being run, and despite that, it was still doing well. And I just as I started to learn more about CrossFit, the methodology and the community, the greater community out there, and recognize just how incredibly powerful this movement was and this methodology was. I mean, it was, it truly redefined and reset the standard for what fitness is. How it's defined, and what's possible when you when you do it really, really well. And it was a, it was a really inspiring situation. And yet, every affiliate owner that I came across was a mess, business wise, despite great intentions, working their tails off. And then finally, one day, Jeff, the owner of my space, was like, Hey, wait a minute. I heard what you do. Can you help me? And so I said, Oh, man, I'm so happy you finally asked. And, you know, we did some really basic stuff, and it worked really well. And then next thing you know, I had like, 10 or 15 other of his friends reach out, and they're like, hey, what you did for Jeff? Can you help us? And it started to snowball. And I started to specialize in, in doing more and more of just the same thing, which is in any niche. As you start to really focus on that, you start, you can start to go deeper and really dial something in, and eventually it's all I started focusing on and spending my time on was CrossFit affiliates and other businesses that were supporting affiliates in the space. And that was in 2008 and lots of water under the bridge since then.

Pualena 9:18

Yeah, it sounds like a pretty familiar story, too. Just for entrepreneurship in general, there is the one thing that you love or that you're good at and that you created a business around the rest of it. Nobody knows what they're doing. And without some guidance, I think it's easy to sort of just let things simmer and just, you know, keep the lights on. Would you say that there were adjustments, little tweaks, little things that made a big difference, that are applicable to both, like a CrossFit affiliate or a gym, and could also be implemented to, really any business in the world that would shift things for people?

Markus 10:05

Well, that's, that's a long list, because really what it comes down to is just mastering the fundamentals. There is no, sure there's going to be some, some niche specific or, you know, CrossFit affiliate business specific details. And, you know, kind of turnkey proven systems or tactics, if you will. But it's all built on the back of just about just sound fundamentals in sales, marketing, operations, leadership, money management and so on. And you know, really the main thing, and this goes back to something we spoke about a little bit ago, which was understanding what business you're in, and you're not in the fitness business, you're not in the gym business. You are in the hospitality business. Interesting. And when you understand that this is the hospitality business, and I'm here to provide an experience, and it just so happens that the thing that I sell is fitness, but that's not the business I'm in. The businessman is the hospitality and that the game is all about developing professional coaches to deliver this on my behalf, per my unique version of this recipe, then you can really start to play the game and that's ultimately what this is about. So once you first understand what you're even doing, then you can start to really adjust and look at what other successful hospitality businesses do. I had some background in the hospitality industry, both in restaurants and concert venues, but more importantly, in the hotel business, and I had the unique privilege of working for the Ritz Carlton for a couple of years, where I learned a whole lot. That for me was, it was a paradigm shift, because, you know, I was, I was raised by two immigrant parents who had small local businesses, and I worked in those businesses and did every job possible in those businesses, and was just around people who worked really hard, cared really hard about their client base and wanted to be the best at what they did. And understanding systems, and understanding that hospitality and designing an experience customer service can be a system, and not just how you are, but it can be taught. It can be measured, it can be repeated. It was something I learned at the Ritz, and it really changed my perspective and that happened just shortly before I got into the consulting that I was doing, and then ultimately the CrossFit stuff. And when you, when you carry that into this business, you can start to really unlock these, these basic fundamentals around, you know, like I said, around around marketing, it's like, we want to share stories. When it comes to sales, it's around speed, and it's about, about matching the sales experience to the service that you're going to provide, right? Like you wouldn't be selling Ferraris and then have a Hyundai dealership experience in front of that for your sales experience, and it's not going to sync up. It's like, you look at where we are and you expect me to spend a half a million dollars on a car. They don't sync so just understanding, like, okay, if this is what we're delivering and this is what our promise is in our service, then you reverse engineer the onboarding and integration into that service. And then you go in front of that and you say, Okay, well, then how does it need to be sold and positioned, and how big is the gap in someone's understanding and the value of what we do so how much education is baked into the sales process? And then you go ahead to the marketing, and it's all things you can read about in countless wonderful business books and here on wonderful podcasts. But it's the lens you view it through that then really has it makes it clear.

Pualena 13:48

That is so fascinating to think about this as hospitality, because you're right, and it's, you know, I think about all of the gyms that I've been a part of, and what is most memorable to me is the first day I show up, and the community and the friends that I ended up making, those are the two things I always think about. What was it like my very first day? Because it's always scary, right? And so it's, was it memorable? Did I, was I welcomed? Was it difficult? You remember your first day. It was a two week first day, and it was difficult, right? And then there's the community aspect, which seems like it saves a lot of gyms, that to your point, right? Like perhaps the business side of it is not so strong, but the community is so strong that it kind of makes up for it. So imagine all of these spaces with amazing communities and a really solid foundation for business. That's a recipe for just inevitable growth, right?

Markus 14:52

I mean, yeah, that's, that's basically it, you know, you want to combine a great plan and great execution along with an. Environment people genuinely want to be around, where people feel seen, people feel important. Their the value that they're receiving from being there goes far beyond just the baseline service that they, you know, think they got they came there for, or that they went there for initially. You know, people sign up at a gym or like one of our CrossFit affiliates, or any CrossFit affiliate, this is a, kind of a universal thing that happens there because of the joint suffering, if you will, like you come in, you do something really hard together, and everybody comes out alive, and everyone feels awesome. And then you, you know, there's a bonding element to that. But it is, it is really, it's a really special thing. And this is the part of it that we, you know, we love so much, is that it, it really is an incredibly powerful thing that happens inside of the four walls of the CrossFit affiliate, and that, you know, people come to this place because they want to lose some weight, they want to look a little bit better in their jeans, or fill in the blank with, usually a more superficial goal. And what ends up happening is that they end up falling in love with fitness for the first time. They make an incredible group of friends that they never saw coming. And it becomes that third place. You know, it's like people have work, they have home, and they've got room for one more. And that is the story across the board, and that these communities become where these people want to be, and if you can just take that and combine it with with some great fundamentals, just done really well, and, you know, an intentional plan, and just following that plan consistently, you can build an awesome business that, you know, makes a great impact, provides great jobs for people, and ultimately gives you what you want, which is you can make a great living doing what you love.

Pualena 16:41

That's beautiful. I imagine also that CrossFit affiliate owners are probably, like, the most relentless people on the planet. Like, CrossFit is hard. It's so fun, it's such a it's so empowering. And like, you know what, it is hard and what I love is like, there's the RX right, the like elite, baseline, and all of the ways that you can scale, and you're always able to challenge yourself. And there's always going to be something that shows a weakness, and the fact that people come back again and again and again to improve on their weaknesses, to get a little bit stronger every day. Like those people, the ones that showed up one day and never left, are the ones that become affiliate owners, and they have this, like drive in them. I'm sure that, you know, there's like, there's no quit in them, and so I imagine not knowing how to run a business properly, but wanting it so badly like that drive keeps it alive, and then to find out about Best Hour of Their Day and the resources that are available from like a free podcast all the way up into you know, your full program allows these people to just take a breath and say, okay, don't have to fight this anymore. I don't have to just keep suffering through this business owner process, like, what a phenomenal thing for people to come across. I mean, what are your thoughts on that does that is that accurate? Are those the kind of people that end up owning affiliates?

Markus 18:16

I mean, yes and no, yes in that. You know, CrossFitters are uniquely skilled at suffering over and over again, you know. And you know, it's like, oh, that was terrible. Can't wait to go back tomorrow. But, and it definitely cultivates a strong mind, and, you know, makes you psychologically and emotionally stronger and more robust. But just like anything in life, you know, it's the things that we practice, are the things that we get better at. And just because you have that work ethic there doesn't mean that, you know, whatever identity we're carrying around about who we are as a businessman or woman, you know, isn't still going to feel weak and insecure when it comes to this business thing that I try so hard to do, and I continue to suck or fail at, for their perspective and once, but once we get through that part, and we can show them that look, you can work hard or doesn't have to be super hard, you just have to work on purpose, on the right things in the right order, that you can make really meaningful progress in a really short amount of time. And for some it's longer, because sometimes there's a bigger mess to clean up, or maybe they're just getting off the ground and they're brand new. But moral of the story is, is that once you channel that you know, and you'll hear this from people who've been in business a long time that they're just like, oh, there's that moment that you figured it out. And it's not that you have all the answers, but you at least understand what's going on and how to how to win. And you know for us, we really bring all the attention around to the habits, and we really drilled it down to look, it doesn't matter where you're located or how big your facility is, or how fancy it is, or how many people you've got, or anything other than, are you willing to do the work consistently for a long enough period of time to make this work? So, nodifferent than the member in the gym, doesn't matter if someone shows up and they're 150 pounds overweight and haven't worked out a day in their life. It's like, yeah, but you're here, and if you keep showing up here for a long enough period of time, you are going to completely transform yourself, not just physically, but mentally, emotionally, and become a whole new version of yourself. Same thing is true in business. There's really no difference. It's going to feel hard. You're going to feel like you got hit by a bus the first several times, many times that you do it, because you don't. You haven't adapted yet. You don't really have your wherewithal as to, like, how to be efficient at this yet. But I promise, if you keep showing up and doing the right things in the right order, there's a tipping point where all of a sudden you're like, Oh, this is starting to make sense. I'm starting to get some traction. And and just like the fitness example, you will all of a sudden start to make really meaningful progress and build a wonderful business. And yeah, CrossFitters are uniquely, I think, tougher than many just because of the nature of what they do. But you know, it doesn't mean that it's not hard and scary to face your demons and your the the areas that you're not as confident or competent in yet, and realize and have to admit to yourself, you're like, Man, I actually kind of suck at this, and I might want to get some help, and at that point, you have the opportunity to make a change for yourself.

Pualena 21:33

You have been a part of both growing CrossFit affiliates and successfully, you know, seeing them soar with their success and supporting them through the challenges, you have also been a part of the rapid growth of Best Hour of Their Day as a business. And I feel lucky to have been able to kind of see a little bit from the from the back end, kind of from afar, I've watched this business and everything that you offer and your team just expand so quickly. Let's talk a little bit about what that was like, and your role in that, and just your experience in building this phenomenal organization.

Markus 22:19

Well, thank you very much for that. It's been a lot of fun. And you know, I've been, I've been an entrepreneur most of my adult life, and I've had the privilege of working on lots of different projects, most of which, you know, some of which went okay, a couple went really well. Most of them didn't, but that's the nature of the game. And so, yeah, when, when we teamed up, Jason, Fern and myself, right when all this stuff was was the concept was coming together, and we were turning the podcast into an actual business. It was immediately apparent, having worked on so many different projects over the years, you you can tell very quickly when something has legs. And really what it came down to is it was the three of us. We all, even though we had very different experiences in the CrossFit space, both my partners are long time CrossFit seminar staff coaches and very well known and very well respected, had each been doing this for well over a decade. Which those are the people who work for CrossFit and actually create the, you know, they run the seminars that create the coaches all the way level one, all the way up to four, and they, but also affiliate owners. And we just saw the same thing. We just saw this really important community of people who who deserve better support. And we so we so we wanted to put something together that trimmed out all the all the unnecessary crap and fluff, and just said, Okay, let's, let's do something that's really designed for them, not for us. And sure, we wanted to build a good business. But one of our core values is affiliates first, and that means every decision we make is it must serve the affiliate community, and if it's not good for the CrossFit affiliate, then we're not going to do it. And there are many decisions that we could make differently that would make us more efficient, maybe, or more profitable, and we choose not to do them, because ultimately, it comes down to the client for us, and that's been that way from the beginning. And you know, we had a mission that we were very clear on from the beginning, and set of values that we were clear on from the beginning. Sure, they've evolved a little bit as we've matured, but it's the same idea, and we've just had three people who were willing to work their asses off to make this happen. And you know, you get the right people in the room together who care about the same thing enough, and bring different skill sets. We're also very different people. And so we bring different perspectives and different skills to the table. And it was a really great combination, right from the start. And you know, we've been lucky to attract and hold on to some really special people, that we've now been able to build a wonderful team to help us make all this happen.

Pualena 25:07

Phenomenal. And how many people do you have now on the team?

Markus 25:11

I think we've got 21 or 22 people on the team itself, and then a slew of contractors and VAs and things like that as well.

Pualena 25:20

Oh my gosh. 21 I feel lucky to have met a handful of them. Every single person that we get to interact with is, you have a gift for I don't know if it's like your onboarding or you recognize things in people, their values, their personality, their energy, but everybody is not only bought into the mission and just like the vibe of the organization, but there is this like collective, like motivation behind everything and Every conversation that we have with your team, and it's, it's, it's such a collective vision, and to be able to share that with a team that I think is quite big, like 21 people that is, that's no joke, plus contractors, like I, I am a contractor for you, and I feel like a small part of your team. I feel like we share your values, we share, we know your brand. You know, how do you teach that?

Markus 26:27

We do put a lot of care into our hiring and onboarding process. And that's really just how you start the relationship, let alone then, you know, managing that relationship. And, you know, one of our other core values is, what we say is Team, Team, Team, and our team of eight players are what make all of this possible, and we invest accordingly. And that is, we make that very clear from the beginning. You know, we one of the conversations we have with people as they're first coming on board is, you know, is this something you you see yourself doing for the next while, or is this something you want to do for the next five or 10 years? You know, we want to make sure we are, we're aligned on the most important things, which really comes down to work ethic and values and the mission that we're on. And if someone aligns with that, then we're already most of the way there. And that's really how we hire, and it's also how we fire. I mean, we, luckily, we've brought on a lot of wonderful people, and we've been pretty strict on the front end, so we, we haven't had to get rid of too many people. But at the end of the day, it's, it is really about creating a team of people that not only can help make this mission possible and get the work done, but truly, a group of people who who genuinely enjoy working together, that's, you know, at least for me, a big priority here, because we, we all care very deeply about this community. We all care very deeply about the mission that we're on. And because of that, it's, it's easy to work through challenges. Everyone makes mistakes. No one's expected to be perfect, but we do expect you to communicate well, own up to it, and let's learn and grow together. And so, yeah, we're very lucky to have the people on board that we do. I'm really grateful for that.

Pualena 28:12

Yeah, you've built a phenomenal team. What is the most fun part of Best Hour of Their Day for you, as somebody who's seen it grow from the ground up.

Markus 28:25

Well, a couple aspects. Number one, I, we like to give each other a hard time, particularly my two partners and I, and it's, it's on a pretty advanced level, so we have a good time giving each other a hard time a lot of the time. So that's that makes it really fun, especially even when things are serious and things are you know, we're working out a bigger challenge, that there's always someone cracking a joke and someone lightening it up in one way or the other, and that's really unique, and that carries through the whole team, but particularly with my partners, I really enjoy that aspect of it. But for me, personally, what I actually enjoy the most about the work that I get to do is to actually be out on the scene. I genuinely love being around people. I love being in a room where I know I can, at least I can try to add value and help make their lives better, and if it's just teaching them something or giving them maybe a different perspective on something, you know, those are the things I like. So it's the mastermind events that we host for our clients. Those are my very favorite thing that we do, but also being out on the scene where, you know, we're going and speaking at the different, you know, CrossFit summits, or the CrossFit Games and things like that. So any chance they get to be around our community of people with my team, that's my sweet spot.

Pualena 29:46

That's awesome. I was hoping you would bring up how much of a jokester you all are, because I think that like to me, that is a beautiful filter for hiring team members for attracting the clients that you want to work with. It is, I would venture to say it's not for everybody, but it's hilarious. And if anybody has ever listened to your podcast, looked at your social media and it is so much fun to just consume your content.

Markus 30:19

Well, thank you for that. To be clear, my social media is boring as can be, because I am barely on there, barely post, but our Best Hour of Their Day content, for sure. Jay and Fern, in particular, they've got a really cool dynamic where, you know, they just, like I said, everyone likes to give each other shit constantly. And it's very apparent, and you're right, it definitely, it is through the whole team and again. I mean, I hate to be a broken record here, but it comes down to for us, it's our values, and one of them is to have a good time. And you know, one of the things that is a requirement for us, it's like, man, if you can't, if you can't take a joke and or be in that environment, then you're going to hate it here, because when it's really serious is going to be when the most offensive joke is going to slide out. And you know, if you can’t laugh that off, then you know this isn't going to be for you. But no, we definitely like to have a good time. And the, you know, the silliness, if you will, of it is, is rooted in the brand, because it's, you know, we believe, again, like we're talking about serious stuff. We're talking about business. We're talking about, you know, relationships and employees and money and, you know, real stuff. And we're always going to shoot you straight, and we're going to give you the honest answer. That doesn't mean we can't have a good time while we're doing it. This isn't all serious enough. It doesn't all need to be dry and boring. We can have a good time while we do it too.

Pualena 31:49

Absolutely. And it allows, I think, for people, I just listened to a podcast and they spoke about communication and laughter and how laughter is it can, like, bring everybody's energy on the same level very quickly. Like, if you just meet somebody and you're able to laugh with them, you immediately create a deeper connection than if it's too serious, or if you guys feel like you're not on the same page. So for a program like this, where you are, like, exposing people's, you know, weaknesses in business or vulnerabilities or things that they're not comfortable with, and lacing that with laughter and humor, like, come on, it's, it's like a recipe for the best program ever, right?

Markus 32:37

Well, appreciate that, that is, like I said, it's, it's a core ingredient in in what we do, because it's, you know, we're we all like to laugh and have a good time. And, like I said, it helps the medicine go down sometimes. So, yeah.

Pualena 32:50

Absolutely. That's incredible. On the opposite side of that, I'm curious what challenges you've had in growing the business and or what some common challenges are that you see in maybe affiliate owners and their businesses, and just, you know, if there's anything that people listening, whether they're in the CrossFit community or not, everybody is in the entrepreneurship space and maybe going through similar challenges, and might be able to glean some wisdom or get some ideas from anything that you've experienced.

Markus 33:23

Well, I don't know about wisdom, but I'll tell you what we experienced. Yeah, I mean for us, I mean, we're just like, like everyone, you know, we're constantly learning and growing. And you know, what you know for us is a challenge. You know, was a challenge a year ago may not be the challenge now. And, you know, we, we just try to be really honest with ourselves about what the what the biggest constraint is in the business at the moment, and, you know, try to make sure we're all seeing the same thing. And then we, we dive in on it and try to resolve it. And then the next one pokes its head up and it's like, oh, what's that? And, you know, so it's a constantly moving target for us, and at least in my understanding and my experience, that never goes away. It just changes. And I heard on the podcast recently, it's like, you know, it's like, in video games, you've got, like, the level one boss, level two boss, level three boss, and it's like, once you've beaten level one and level two, it's really easy to just fly through those levels and beat the boss, but then you get to the one you haven't beaten before, and you're like, What the hell am I supposed to what the hell am I supposed to do? And you've got to learn and grow. And you know, I think business is a forced personal development journey, because the business is always a reflection of your own limitations and the stories that you believe about yourself and the world around you to be true, are what's going to dictate how, how it goes in business for you, in many ways, and so whenever you butt up against something you you know it's not just a tactical thing that you need to fix. It's oftentimes coming from a deeper place in that it's maybe it's a belief that you have or that you've instilled in your team, or that someone on your team is responsible for something they have. And, you know, for Jay Fern and myself, you know, we're constantly rotating through, you know, as we say, like, who's the problem, you know, or what's the problem. And it's like, it's always, you know, one of us, or multiple of us, and you know, our perspective or our understanding, and you know, we work it out, and then we move on to the next one. So, and I think that's going to be true in any business, and if you're a lone wolf and you're going it alone, then it's all going to be a reflection of yours. When you've got partnerships, it adds some complexity, because it's now not just you, it could be you and one other and you and a couple other, or you and this guy and you and that gal next time. So it definitely makes things interesting in that regard. But for affiliate owners, I mean, this, the same principle is going to apply there. But, you know, oftentimes we just again, like I said, people just don't understand the game that they're playing most often, which, you know, I've likened it kind of to, like chess and checkers. If you don't know what you're looking at, they look pretty similar. It's the same board. You're like, Oh, we've got some players, and these ones are a little fancier than those. And it's like many people get into the gym business. They think it's checkers and it's actually chess. And if you're playing with checkers rules, you're going to get your ass kicked over and over again and wonder why you might get lucky every once in a blue moon. But you know, you just need to understand the game that you're playing. And so yeah, that's all I'll say about that.

Pualena 36:21

Yeah, makes a lot of sense. You, you kind of skated past something that I kind of want to bring back to the surface.

Markus 36:30

What's that?

Pualena 36:31

We're honest with each other about where we're at? That, to me, is huge, because a lot of times when we have a point of contention or some some sort of opportunity to improve something in your business. Oftentimes it's really difficult to look at it like you don't want to look at the ugly stuff. You only want to look at what makes you look good, and the inability to focus in and have create awareness around the things that aren't functioning properly, or, you know, opportunities for growth. That's a huge skill. And the fact that is just so foundational to your partnership, I think, is it's, it's really impressive.

Markus 37:16

Yeah, and don't get me wrong, we definitely don't have a perfect score, you know, but it's, it's definitely something we are constantly working on. And, you know, like I said, this is the part where sometimes I'm the one with the blind spot and I don't see it, or I don't get it, or it's, you know, a couple of us, or, you know, one of the other guys. And, you know, the the reality is, is that, you know, we can always remind ourselves that we're trying. We're all trying to do the same thing. We all care very deeply about this mission, about this team, about our clients, and that none of us are ever not trying our best to do it. And sometimes you just don't see it. And that's okay, because we all, again, come from different backgrounds and have different experiences and different personalities and and, and, and so you you know, we're all as long as we're all honest with each other about it. And sometimes it sucks. Sometimes you're the one who gets called out, and you're like, Oh man, like, I really screwed that up, or I really didn't see that. And you know, we do our best to always just, you know, kindly, but honestly, indirectly, just tell each other the truth and be like, dude, that sucked, and let's learn from it and move on. No one's, you know, we've all made our mistakes, some small, some really big, and but we're still here, and we're still we're still fighting. So you know, we're going to keep, keep doing that moving forward, and keep doing our best to shoot each other straight like that.

Pualena 38:44

Yeah, that's awesome, a great partnership, and it sounds like that's also what you do for your clients who may have no business partner at all. They're just alone running this gym, and they need somebody to be honest with them and to give them the feedback that they aren't getting anywhere else, because they aren't going to give it to themselves, right?

Markus 39:05

Yeah, it's, it's actually really tough, I think, for for people who are on their own, because, you know, running a business, it's pretty lonely, because you know, again, especially if you want to do well, you want to talk to people who are doing well, which in any business, isn't the majority. And so it can be really tough, let alone you know someone that you can be open and honest with and share your dirty laundry with and be like, Man, this is totally screwed up, and I don't know what to do, and I'm scared. And you know when you when you find a good business coach slash mentor, whatever you want to call it, that you know you can trust and that knows that you know has your best interests at heart. It's as close as you can get to a good business partner as possible. And you know, for a lot of people out there, they've been going at it alone for a long time and working really hard and under. Not understanding why it's not working, or what about it isn't working. And then, you know, we get to come in where this is all we eat, sleep and breathe. We've literally done this 1000s of times, and they come in and they're just like, I'm a snowflake. And you're like, No, you're not. It feels like you're a snowflake. I know I have also felt like a snowflake, but I also was not a snowflake. And just getting working through that with someone, just knowing they have someone in their corner who cares and that can help them. And you know, although you know, a big part of what our responsibility is as a business coach is to help make this easier and faster for them to succeed, it's also our obligation to teach them along the way, and sometimes you got to have a harder conversation or let them come to a conclusion so that they can, they can learn the bigger lesson and level up. And that's what we try to do for our people.

Pualena 40:55

Yeah, yeah. That's huge, and it's, it's a testament to investing in good coaching. Oh yeah.

Markus 41:03

No question.

Pualena 41:04

Hard stop the floundering. You know.

Markus 41:06

Absolutely, and I've done it at every level, from my very first crummy coaching situation that I got into, which still even my very worst experiences, I still learned something that was invaluable. So I find oftentimes people get into a business coaching thing, and they're like, Well, exactly how much my ROI and this and that you may learn what you don't want and what you don't like and what doesn't work, which is equally as valuable. And so there's always something to benefit, always something to learn from a coaching situation, but you're absolutely right when, when you do find really good ones, it is like a fast forward button on, on your business, on your understanding of the business, on your success. And so, I mean, I personally, I it's very clear to me in my path, at least, that whenever I'm working with a coach, which is almost all the time that I am doing way better. It feels way easier. And the mistakes, although they still need to be made, you don't get to skip the mistakes. They're far less, uh, impactful. The consequences are, are far smaller, and you learn quicker, and you can move past it better. So, yeah, I am a huge, huge fan. I mean, we take our own medicine, too.

Pualena 42:25

Yeah, I I just joined a coaching program for specifically for design agency owners and to be able to invest in something within your niche. So like you serve CrossFit affiliate owners, could I have a boot camp and join your program? No. So you are specific to this type of business where you understand it so deeply that you can give them a formula, they still have to do the work. They have to implement it and execute it, but that formula has been proven over and over and over again that is worth its weight in gold. Yes, it's an initial investment that will pay off for years.

Markus 43:12

It pays off indefinitely, because if you learn, yeah, I mean, yes, I could not agree with you more. It is, has been a cornerstone in my business journey is I love to get hyper niche, because the when you're really, really specific in who you serve, in the problem that you solve, you can, rather than kind of solving a bunch of problems, you can really solve the main problem. And that's far more valuable, and it's far more scalable, because it's rather than, well, now I've got to tweak what I do a little bit for this person and for this situation and that business model, you get to just be like, Nope. I'm very, very clear on who I serve, and equally, if not more importantly, who I don't serve, so that I can just master this particular problem or set of problems, and add an enormous amount of value. Makes it easier for you, it's more replicable for you, makes it more profitable for you. It's way easier to market, it's way easier to sell, it's way easier to create happy clients. In my opinion, it is the golden ticket, if you will, if you're in any sort of consulting business. And then, honestly, I mean, it applies to any business, but it really applies to education and, you know, any sort of consulting service that you do, you know, it's like, Hey, I build websites, or I build websites for gym owners. It's like, oh, well, now I've got, like, a very specific set of problems that I can focus on solving and master solving. And yeah, so I'm very happy to hear that. Good for you, Pua.

Pualena 44:50

thank you. It's, it's been a game changer. It's awesome.

Markus 44:55

Yeah, I believe that.

Pualena 44:57

Yeah, incredible. Well. I imagine that there are many people listening who may not be affiliate owners, but are probably CrossFitters and will share this with their community. Community. I do want to ask you about that. Before we wrap, you saw where I was going, and I'm going to reel it back so you have created a phenomenal community of affiliate owners who probably, I'm guessing I'm not in your program, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Markus 45:28

Not yet.

Pualena 45:29

Not yet, exactly, I've thought about it.

Markus 45:33

You'd be great at it.

Pualena 45:35

Thank you. Anyway, well, we'll talk after really, truly, I think it would be so fun. Okay, anyway, do your community members now? Like, are they? How is it set up? Do they stay in the community after they've gone through and completed the program?

Markus 45:51

Yeah, so we we’re actually transitioning how we are doing that. So timing is great. So I'll kind of explain the old way and talk about what we're transitioning to. So what we've done from almost the beginning, which you're aware of, with the Kajabi platform that we're on, we use the Kajabi communities, and we created one that was for the active clients. We actually had a couple in there, because we had the coach development group and the business development group, and then when someone would leave the program, they would be put into an alumni group, and that way, people could still have communication with one another. They still had a place that they can go, where they knew everyone there spoke the same language and we but as I've communicated with you separately on other calls, like the those communities really didn't do it for us the way that we wanted them to do it. And I know we were on, like, the older version of it. There's newer versions now, but what we've actually been experimenting with is slack and creating these communities on Slack instead, and it's been a total game changer for us. And yes, people are, they have access to the all the stuff when they're an active client, where we've got, you know, different channels with different topics, and they're in, you know, a certain group with their coach and and, and, and however, then when they leave the program, that they then are put into a separate group. And I'm actually not sure, because we're just in the process of rolling this out. We're not even completed in rolling this out if we're going to keep a Slack channel for them to stay in after the fact, or if we're going to come up with something else. So I'm not quite sure for that, but historically, for the last almost five years now, we have done it to where, yes, we keep people in the community after, like I said, for their reasons and for ours, because then we have a place that we can go to and still provide some ongoing education. And you know, oftentimes people are like, You know what, I'm back in, and they come full circle. And it's a beautiful thing. Everybody wins.

Pualena 47:54

Absolutely. Because I imagine, after going through this program and seeing people come in and share some of the challenges that maybe they had a year ago, six months ago, five years ago, and be able to almost step in in a pseudo coaching role to support those new people in the program. I was curious if that was something that you had experienced with the group, but it sounds like they were a little bit separate.

Markus 48:19

Yeah, we don't have the active clients in those groups, but we have all of the inactive clients are in that alumni group. And we would have, like I said, regular topics that we would do in there and go in and teach and update on things. And, you know, I'd say, all in all, it was a it was a really light lift for us operationally, but, you know, it definitely drove people back into the front of the machine, which is a good thing. And, yeah, I mean, I think it's always good to keep it community. But the we do see a lot of that inside of our active client community, where the people who have been there a while, because we've got people now in their fourth year of Affiliate University, to where, you know, they are really, I mean, they're not only are they running amazing businesses at this point, but they've really become leaders within our community, and we've got, we've got a few 100 active clients at any given time. And you know, when you've got that core group of people who are the kind of senior clients and have the most experience and have built these incredible businesses and communities. And, you know, really have what everyone else there wants. You know, they're by default, you know, stepping up and helping and sharing. And, you know, we just had it happen earlier today where someone was expressing a problem, and one of our senior clients was like, Oh, I've, I've got you on that. And they broke off separately and worked it out real easy. And we're obviously there to support our clients. But when you've got a pool of people who are all teachers by nature, these are all people who run, you know, a coaching business, once the lights light bulbs go off for them, they're they're not shy and turning around and being like, I'll. Help you. I know how to solve that problem, so it's really cool. It's a really special thing to see.

Pualena 50:04

Thank you. Thank you for doing what you do, for supporting people in the way that you do, both internally with Best Hour of Their Day and with your clients. You've created some phenomenal affiliates. I, there are some that I are literally on this island, that I've met the owners, and they're thriving, and so what you do really, really makes a difference. So if anyone listening is curious, they want to learn more. They want to hear your jokes, from just wanting to hear your humor to wanting to refer their affiliate owner to you. Where can they find you, and how can they learn more?

Markus 50:45

Yeah, just look up Best Hour of Their Day.com. You can find our website, which will have all the resources on there. If you're looking to just kind of dip your toe in, just go check out the podcast. You can find us on any of the major podcast platforms, or YouTube for that matter. It's always a video show, so you can always go and watch and kind of get to know the crew a little bit more that way. So but yeah, thank you so much for having us on and giving me a chance to come on here and blab for a little while with you. But it's always a pleasure to get to catch up with you, Pua, and we're truly grateful to have had the opportunity to have met you and worked with you and helping us build this whole platform, because truly you helped us level everything up tremendously, from not just our front end web presentation and the design that you helped us put together on the front end and really leveling up the brand, but the entire education system that is running the whole thing behind the scenes. So thank you to you and your team for everything you've done for us.

Pualena 51:3i

A pleasure to support you and yeah, let's keep it going.

Markus 51:40

Awesome. Thanks, Pua.

Pualena 51:41

Take care. We'll talk to you soon.

View Details

Scott Cate joins Pualena on the podcast to dive into 301 Pro, a game-changing link shortener and dynamic routing tool built for marketers and businesses who want full control over their links. Unlike traditional shorteners like Bitly—now showing ads on free accounts—301 Pro goes beyond simple redirects with powerful features like time-based and location-based routing, QR code tracking, and in-depth analytics.

Scott reveals how businesses can use dynamic links to supercharge their marketing campaigns, tailor content to users in real-time, and even adjust experiences based on factors like weather and language detection. Whether you're running global campaigns, managing multilingual content, or optimizing QR codes for different audiences, 301 Pro makes it seamless.

He also shares a critical tip: never hard-code your QR codes—with 301 Pro, you can update them in real-time and avoid costly mistakes. And for RBL Media podcast listeners, Scott has a special offer: use code RBL for 50% off when you sign up!

About Scott Cate

Scott Cate is a Cloud Builder Advocate who speaks at events of all sizes, connecting with developers. Passionate about sharing knowledge, Scott enjoys teaching strengths, identifying weaknesses, and driving improvement. His career motto is: "Learn. Build. Share."

With a proven track record of delivering complex, high-value products through invention, program management, and product management, Scott combines entrepreneurial instincts, deep technical expertise, and a strong ability to motivate cross-functional teams at all levels.

Their experience includes serving as the voice of the business, effectively communicating risk for maximum impact, building strong relationships with vendors and clients, and leading companies to new heights. A seasoned technology leader, Scott excels as a strategic business partner, adapts easily to change, manages multiple tasks simultaneously, and thrives on learning and teaching new concepts.

Resources discussed in this episode:

301 Pro: Use code RBL to get 50% off first two months
Bitly

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media

Contact Scott Cate | 301 Pro:

Website: 301pro.com
Email: hello@301.pro
Linkedin: Scott Cate

Transcript:

Scott 00:00

Are you the same person at 8am or 3pm or 11pm? Think about how like your mindset, and it changes. And then the follow up to that is, neither are your customers. But you're still serving them the same happy go lucky, 8am content as 11pm. It's a very different mindset.

Pualena 00:23

Scott, amazing to have you. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Scott 00:26

The feeling is mutual. I'm excited to be here.

Pualena 00:31

I'm thrilled, and I would love to open with just praising you for being such a phenomenal guest. You showed up. I I'm gonna, I'm gonna spill your secret. You just shared a document with me that, not only shows…

Scott 00:43

An outline and has like 10 words on it.

Pualena 00:47

It was, I mean 10 meaningful, intentional words. That's all, that's all you can ask for.

Scott 00:52

When I get on stage, I have a little cheat sheet, and I don't like to read from the screen, but I like little postcards with one word on it, just as a reminder, like, talk about this, talk about this. And it's really a good way for me to get on stage and not have to worry about what I'm going to say, because I have a cheat sheet, but I am not reading the words on, you know that kind of stuff.

Pualena 01:15

For sure. It's a sign also that you deeply know and love your topic, right? You just need a word to be like, Oh yeah, and let’s talk about this.

Scott 01:25

A reminder. Yeah, I tell you, I do sometimes go out of order, which is why I didn't put all my words on one piece of paper. I put all my words on an individual three by five card. And then after I'm done talking about something, I could just ditch it

Pualena 01:41

So you just shuffle it and see what comes next?

Scott 01:45

I have an order, but t doesn't always land that way. Yeah, absolutely. When I'm on stage, I like, walk around, so if I walk over there, I forget my note cards, and then I come back, I'm like, oh, that's out of order. Anyway. Sorry.

Pualena 01:57

All good. Well, share with us who you are what you're all about, what your business is, and your favorite thing about your business. Let's start there.

Scott 02:06

Okay, wow. So I'm a computer nerd, and I have been my entire life, and I have a product now called 301 Pro, and it's probably, and I'm not exaggerating, it's probably the 50th time I've built this product, and it's a generic product. It's a link shortener, like it competes with Bitly, and we'll talk more about some of the really cool things we've done to reinvent that. But all the products I've created through my whole life, we've needed a link shortener, and they're really easy to build. You're like, you have a database, you have a short link. You have a long link. For people that don't know what a link shortener is like Bitly, instead of posting like your whole website URL on social media, you just get a short link, and then it's called the link shortener, because all it does is sort of expand to the big link. But I've written this so many times. I worked at Microsoft for five years, and inside Microsoft, we built a link shortener, and then I worked at Amazon, and inside Amazon, built a link shortener, and then, like, literally everything I've done. So finally, I'm like, You know what? We've done some really cool things with this. I think people want to pay for it. And turns out they do.

Pualena 03:17

Link shorteners have been around for quite a while, and I find that I am always looking for them, but I'm never consciously thinking about like, you know, you go into your you share an Amazon link, and you grab the short link because it's easier, but you're not conscious that that's what you're utilizing as a tool, right? But it's so essential at this stage.

Scott 03:41

Especially for analytics, I'll tell you the number one reason people use a link shortener. Maybe you agree with this, of some of the things you've done in the past is for analytics, because it's outside the domain of the destination. Like, if I want to promote your podcast, like, when this airs, I want to say, Hey, I was on stage with Pua, but I'm going to put a short link in front of it, because then I know how it worked, and that's true for advertising. Like anytime I want to direct traffic, I sort of want credit for that traffic, whether I'm paying for it or not. So Analytics is a big part of the link shortener. It's something in control of the marketer, not the developer.

Pualena 04:21

Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's a huge part of why I've ever used it is, like, if I'm sending someone to your website, I can't see that they got there from me unless I use, I mean, I apologize for using Bitly up until today.

Scott 04:37

No, no. Don't apologize. I love Bitly. Bitly sort of invented this, and is like the 800 pound gorilla that everybody knows and loves. Although Bitly has given us a gift, and I say us as a company. I don't know if you've seen this in the news, but just this month, Bitly has started putting ads on links.

Pualena 04:58

Oh.

Scott 05:00

I know. Look at your face. So. If you use a Bitlu link, which, again, we like Bitly, I sort of have this funny thing, right? I don't know, this might be the first time it's recorded, but it's okay. Thank you, Bitly, for not innovating for the last 20 years, because you've given us an opportunity. But I want to be friendly with Bitly. I don't want them to be mad at me like they just don't have any of the features that that, you know, we'll, we'll talk about some of the benefits of but, yeah. They're starting to show ads on your bit links. So it used to be short link, long link, click go. Now it's short link, interstitial ad. Like, in 10 seconds, you'll be redirected to whatever the long link is, like, they put an ad there, and then you go to the destination. So we, we don't necessarily agree with that business model, although I also don't think it's a bad business model. Bitly is, like, we got 100 million people doing this. We're not making any money on it. So, like, good for them, also good for me.

Pualena 05:58

Yeah. Did you pay to get that taken out if you don't want it.

Scott 06:02

Yeah, yeah, they only put ads on the free accounts.

Pualena 06:06

So if you're paying, creative and smart and yet annoying,

Scott 06:11

Exactly, we actually don't have a free account at all.

Pualena 06:14

Yeah, you guys strictly pay to play.

Scott 06:18

Yeah, our plans are $9 up to $199 a month, with some feature differences between the two. And it's really a professional tool, like if you are just sending a link to a friend, you're not going to pay $9 a month for that. But if you're doing any sort of paid advertising, or real tracking, affiliate marketing, or some of the other things that we'll talk about, in fact, let me just show you one. So here's, here's what started. Inside Amazon, they have a link shortener, which you actually referenced, and they have a rule. And the rule says you can, it's a business rule. You can only create a link if it goes to amazon.com which makes sense, right? But now, how do you enforce that? Like, let's say there's 20 people on your team and they're creating short links, and I'm one of those people. I'm like, hey, I created this YouTube video that talks about Amazon, and the business rule says, no, no, no. But I'm like, dude, it's Amazon. Like, yes, I want to, I want to do that. So we have a rule at the team level that says these are the allowed domains, and that's now easy to enforce. Nobody on the team can create rules that's not part of that official domain. That's probably an extreme statement. Not many people have that requirement, but that's sort of where this idea started. So Bitly is a short link to long link. We're short link to a rules engine that determines the destination. And when I first say that people like what? So let me give you a real world example. Let's talk about this podcast. Let's say you have a rules engine that says before this date, go to the promotional copy where we're going to talk about Scott being on the show. And after this date, go to the podcast. Like, that's the simplest rule. It's a date before and after. What do you think?

Pualena 08:14

Like conditional formatting in a form?

Scott 08:18

Yeah, exactly. Do you remember there's a website. It's really cool. Everybody loves IFTT?

Pualena 08:24

Yeah.

Scott 08:25

If this, then that, yep. And that's our rules engine. So the link comes in and we look at the rules if, like, right now is before this date, go here. If it's after this date, go there. And the rules engine is really simple to do. It's a form, and you can look at things like date and time. You can also do something, if you get a little bit more advanced, like, let's say you're doing an all day webinar, or a workshop or a conference or something, now you can do before, during and after, right? Like, there's a lot of cool stuff you can do with the dates. We have a customer that sells financial courseware like how to make money in the stock market. So they use the date stuff, and they say, if the stock market's open, go here, because the buyer mindset is different based on the stock market being open or closed. It's also different on the weekends. And here's even a little bit more advanced. It's also different if the stock market is up or down. So we have this thing called static marketing, and you've done this, you've created a web page, and then you've put an ad in front of the web page, and you say, anyone who clicks this ad, go here. I call that hard coding, and it's not bad, but I think it could be better. So here's, my here's my voice of 2025. Time of day marketing. So what if you created three of those pages? One was for morning, one was for afternoon, and one was for overnight. Overnight is like dark mode. Someone's thumbing on their phone. Morning is like coffee, breakfast. Get started. Go get them. So we have a makeup company that does this, and in the morning it's the same makeup. They sell the same product all day long. In the morning it's like, look how easy this is to put on in the afternoon, stays on all day and overnight. Is a flash sale, like, buy one, get one free, right? Here's what nobody has thought of before, and this is unique to our product. To my knowledge, no one on the planet has this except for us. What time is it? And this is what everybody gets hung up on, because I know my time, my server knows the server time, but let's say you're only open for like you, your server is online for five minutes and 1000 people come. What time is it? The answer is it's all the times, like it's eight o'clock here, and it's eight o'clock there. I just wrote a blog post, it's five o'clock somewhere, like the funny song. But it's really true, your server needs to be 24/7 but it doesn't have to treat everybody the same 24/7 so that's sort of my big thing for 2025. Is time of day marketing, morning, afternoon, and you could actually get, like, down to the minute. That's a little crazy. But other things time of day marketing is like restaurants for happy hour. Like, if I go to your restaurant and it's happy hour right now, just show me the happy hour menu.

Pualena 11:32

Yeah.

Scott 11:32

So that's, that's sort of one of the things that our product does.

Pualena 11:35

Oooh, that is so good. Kinda like the QR codes on the tables now, after COVID, that promotes one of your links that takes you to the… oh, my God.

Scott 11:42

I’m so glad you said that. Let's talk about QR codes, because QR codes have a major problem. It's called burned in. Like, let's say you, you're and we have advertising agencies that are doing this. But let's say you put a QR code on a billboard. You don't just have one billboard. You bought a contract for like, 200 billboards, like across America or across whatever land you're in, everyone puts a QR code, hard coded, to a destination. So we have to go backwards a little bit in order to get to time of day. We should sort of ask the question like, how does this actually work? Like the internet works with IP addresses. So when you click a link, there's an IP address that basically says who you are, where you are, and we don't look at the IP address of your phone or your desktop. We look at the IP address of your closest data center. So it gives us about a 10 to 50 mile range. We don't actually know where you are, but we do something called reverse IP detection, and a lot of your audience will be like, oh, yeah, I'd do that. You can do it through Google. You can do it a lot of different ways. There's a lot of software that you can pay for, but if you do reverse IP detection, you have a general region of where the request is coming from, and from that region, we then know the continent, the city, the state, the zip code and the time of day. And so then based on time of day, you can say, we call it, we call it click time. So we have click time and server time. And when you're looking at something like, is the stock market open, that's server time because that's pegged to Eastern time. But if you're looking at user time, like if it's your 8am show you morning, if it's your 8pm show you night, that's the click time. So we talked about time of day, but in order to get time of day, you have to also have location, so we can do state based routing, which is great if you're you have anybody that's doing advertising for a national chain. So like, when you click a QR code, we could do something special based on where you clicked that. Imagine a national television campaign, like in the then the sporting arenas, or you don't necessarily know where the person is scanning that QR code. Same thing with a magazine. So we send them to what we call a pro link. That's our funny name for it. So like 301 Pro you create, instead of the short link, we call it a Pro Link. Every Pro Link you create has an associated QR Code on every plan level. That's another thing we sort of disagree with Bitly on. They charge you for QR Codes, which is fine, like, that's their business model. But like, the last paid plan I was on, I got like, four QR codes a month. And, like, I don't know if you know the technology to create a QR code, but it's pretty low. So if you create 100 Pro Links..

Pualena 14:41

There are a lot of free options out there.

Scott 14:42

Yeah, exactly. So we put QR codes on everything. We love QR codes, but QR code should not be hard coded, they should go to a rules engine, even if the rules engine then is hard coded, like, let's say you have short link to destination. That's fine, but with the rules engine in the middle, you could change the destination, because obviously, once a QR codes in the wild, like it's burned in. You can't redo the billboards, right? So I'm glad you brought up QR codes.

Pualena 15:09

Yeah. It's funny. They've been around for such a long time, but in the last, I don't know, four years, people just started using them all of a sudden.

Scott 15:18

You know why I think that is? This is not fact, it's just my idea. Why do you think?

Pualena 15:24

It’s like, crocs?

Scott 15:28

No, I think it's because the home screen of all our phones have a QR code scanner now, like Android and iPhone have QR code scanners just built right into the camera. It's like, oh, QR code open in Chrome, like, more than four or five years ago. I don't know exactly when, but I think that's when it sort of became more popular. QR codes on the menus, on the tables, on the billboards, on the TV.

Pualena 15:50

Yeah, you don't need, like, a separate app to access it, yeah.

Scott 15:54

Exactly, it sort of started that way, right? It was super nerdy, like you had to have a unique app, right? There was different QR codes, too. When I worked at Microsoft, we used to have, gosh, I forgot what it was called. It was made up of triangles. Though it was just like a QR code. Someone in your audience will know exactly what this is, but it was made up of, like, green and red and pink and purple and black triangles. It was like a competitor to QR code, but you had to have an app to make it work, which was dumb. Because, like, if you see that in a magazine, like, I don't know what that is. I mean, maybe it wasn't dumb. I don't know if they had some success with it, but I remember, like, different versions of QR codes. Now you can do like, smiley faces and borders and cute stuff.

Pualena 16:38

Have a logo in the middle. Yeah, it's crazy.

Scott 16:39

Do you use QR codes for anything?

Pualena 16:43

You know, I use them. I have them on my business cards to a static link.

Scott 16:47

Oh business cards. Great.

Pualena 16:50

I did something really interesting at a conference last year. I changed my phone home screen to a QR code when I would meet people, and it would send them this little card that would give them, like, my Instagram, my website, my email.

Scott 17:03

Like a link tree.

Pualena 17:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Scott 17:06

That's super smart.

Pualena 17:08

They’re so…you can get really creative with it, but I think you just unlocked an entirely new level of creativity. And what I love about that is, like the billboard example, right? Or, like, if you pay for advertising in like a magazine, on an airline or something, and yeah, that needs to change. Your investment is not thrown away, because you can control that on the other end of that link.

Scott 17:33

There's horror stories about this, and I'm sure someone in your audience, they should comment on this if they have, but if you've ever printed a QR code to the wrong destination? Can you imagine how effed you are? Like you you have a national ad campaign and the QR code doesn't work, like people are scanning it, and it's just like, 404, or whatever the error message is really, like somebody got fired from that.

Pualena 18:00

Yeah, I would hope. Actually, I always say, if you make a colossal mistake, keep that person, because they'll never make another mistake.

Scott 18:10

Yeah, there's definitely pros and cons of that. But when we get back to it, like in the very beginning of the conversation, what we created was the link shortener. Some people call it link management. And this is interesting, because link management doesn't really help you today, but it absolutely helps you tomorrow. And so somebody really has to be in a mindset where they want to be able to either know that they want some real time destination changes, like the time of day stuff, that's an absolute benefit today. But if you're just using a link shortener, you're like, I've got Bitly for that, and I can pay them nine bucks a month. That's great. But let me show you one other thing that we have that everyone that comes to us from Bitly comes mostly because of this feature. We call it a campaign, so when you create a pro link, you put it inside a campaign. You could think of it as a folder. It's sort of a way of organizing your rules, and it's fine today. That doesn't help you? Well, it can help you, because campaigns are pretty powerful in their right, but campaigns have rules, and the rules engine will run from the campaign after the rules for the Pro Link. So here's what that means in the real world. And actually, I just finished publishing a big paper on this. I call it after the campaign. So let's say you're managing and some of our customers are managing, like, million dollar campaigns, and they're doing big, big things like Super Bowl and, you know, Google ads, but at a really extreme level, what about after the campaign? So let's imagine you've created 50 of these links, or 500 of these links, and they're in the wild. Do this for We'll even make it simpler, like, product announcement, like, Hey, we've got something coming. March 1, March 1, March 1, March 1. Do this. You got 50 links, and you got affiliates, and you've got all these people, everything's out there. What happens on March 2?

Pualena 20:15

Right.

Scott 20:16

All those links still come back to, like, the coming on March 1 page. So we have a campaign, and here's what, here's what all of our customers do. They go to the campaign, they say, new rule. They say after March 1 for every link in the campaign, go here.

Pualena 20:31

Oh my gosh.

Scott 20:32

So, it's like an override. So you can now you can globally change hundreds of links at the campaign level. Isn't that cool?

Pualena 20:41

It's so rad because we have so many people that come to us and say, like old clients, we've built their website. They've gone they've done little things, building new pages, whatever. They come back and they're like, someone's finding a form. I keep seeing a submission to this board for an event that we did last year. Right? It's like we then are like digging through all of their pages. That is brilliant.

Scott 21:04

Isn't that cool?

Pualena 21:05

People who do events and like any sort of recurring anything, webinars, they're always changing links.

Scott 21:14

Things with an expiration.

Pualena 21:15

Yes. And the great thing about that is, like, a lot of people will just take the page down, and that's so bad, so bad. Then you get to a 404 or whatever else, and it's like a lost opportunity.

Scott 21:32

Here's another thing that's even more mind blowing. So you have a campaign. Campaigns belong to a team, and teams have rules. Teams have global rules. So remember when I said Amazon said they could only create links that have destinations to amazon.com that's a global rule that works at the whole business level. So obviously, Amazon's amazing. They do all kinds of great things. But let's look at something smaller, like, you know, your site, rblmedia.com, you've been using 301 Pro, all your links are going through there. Everything's fine. You decide to sell your company to big company.com. If you've been using a Link Manager, again, this didn't help you when you created the link. But now tomorrow or next month, next year, the fictitious tomorrow. Now you create a team rule and you say every domain, now we try to figure out how to do this easily. So let's create a team rule that says every link that has a destination of rbl media change the host to big company.com. Now I say host is a little bit of a nerdy word. Some of your audience will get this. Some of you won't. But if you dissect the URL, the host is what you also might know as the domain. But the domain has several parts to it, a sub domain, a top level domain, but like you know, rblmedia.com is the host, so you can just change the host part of it, the next part after the domain, is called the path. Some people call it a page name, but sometimes pages are in folders, so that whole section with the folders and the page name, it's called the path. Then there's a hashtag, which is where the little bookmark is. That sort of takes you to sections on the page. Then after that, you have the query string. I think the technical name for query string is the search area or something, but we call it a query string. So with this rules engine that I'm talking about, you actually can minutely affect every little detail of the URL like you could just change the domain. You could prepend a folder name. You could append query string details, you could merge variables, like you could literally do anything you want to a URL based on the rules engine of, you know, time, or a global rule, like when the company name changes. That's amazing, because you don't lose any of your traffic.

Pualena 23:54

I wonder if that would affect, like, an appraisal of your business, like you have essentially saved a bunch of assets that would normally have been useful.

Scott 24:02

I don't know.

Pualena 24:03

Question, so let's say I'm like, awesome. I'm sold. I want every link I ever put out in the universe from here on out to not be connected to my domain anymore. Is that something people do? Like, is it? Is it like, would I never share another rblmedia.co link?

Scott 24:26

There's good and there's bad. So yes, is the answer to your question. But some people in your audience are super smart. They know the SEO behind all of this, and they're like, wait a minute, if I send my link somewhere else, I'm gonna lose my SEO juice, because it's not on me, but it is on you. It's still considered first party because you have a custom domain at 301 Pro, which is a sub domain of you. So you would be like, go.rblmedia.com, which is still first party. Yeah. And so if any of your audience looks at our website, 301.pro, you'll see all the links are 301.Pro, but the SEO geniuses in your audience will notice our website is actually whatisdot301.pro, sort of cute, like people do www, but we're like, well, let's be cute. So we do whatis because it's unique, but, but the pro links. So my short link for my company is 301.dot pro yours could be like rbl.me, or whatever, whatever it wants. Or, if you're concerned about the SEO side of it, you could put a go suffix, go.rblmedia.com, is that your domain, by the way? I keep saying it, just making up an example.

Pualena 25:44

Very close. Rblmedia.co

Scott 25:48

Oh, that's funny. There's a cute commercial that I remember seeing once they're like, we couldn't afford the M, yeah, okay, so RBL media.co so go.as your sub domain. And the benefit is that is is considered first party, so you could go extreme on this. And of course, we do, because we're nerds and it's our product, I would ask yourself the question, would this content expire? And if it has any sort of expiration date or time sensitivity, then I would put that behind a pro link that gives you future decision making power. You know, you could do a lot more with a pro link that's not just changing the destination. So we have something called an interstitial pixel, which is super nerdy, like we need a better name for that. Maybe you can help us figure out a better name for it. But interstitial is like a commercial, and in fact, that's what Bitly is doing. So Billy is adding ads on free account. So you click the short link, you go to an interstitial page, and then you forward on to the next place. Well, we can do that as well as a feature for you, which you may want to do, not showing ads. I mean, you could show ads, but it's where you can drop a pixel when you're promoting third party content. So when this podcast is released, we're going to create a short link that goes to Apple podcast and Spotify, or YouTube, wherever it gets published, or maybe one of all those places. But if you promote a third party link, you don't have access to the traffic, so you put it behind a short link, then you get a Click Counter. But you can't do any retargeting. Retargeting is, I know you've talked about this on your show, when you drop that pixel, so what we do is, we hit the short link. We spend 750 milliseconds, so three quarters of a second on a page on your first party domain, go.RBLmedia.co, that's your short link. We drop the pixel so Facebook, Google, Tag Manager, all those places know you have a user, and then we forward them to YouTube, or whatever that third party is. That's optional. You don't have to do that. But we have a feature where you can drop a pixel on third party content.

Pualena 28:06

You've literally thought of everything.

Scott 28:06

Well.

Pualena 28:07

Do people even come to you and say, I need this, but you don't do it?

Scott 28:13

I don't know. You can see our backlog. There's like, 500 things we still haven't done yet. So we we get new features and feedback from customers all the time, I started asking people this simple question, Are you the same person at 8am or 3pm or 11pm.

Pualena 28:30

Absolutely.

Scott 28:32

Like. Think about how like your mindset, and it changes. And then the follow up to that is, neither are your customers, but you're still serving them the same happy go lucky, 8am content as 11pm It's a very different mindset. Here's something we just released, like last month. I don't remember exactly, but not too long ago, we can inject into the rules engine, weather data, because we know where you are. So we hit a weather API. And now I'm gonna ask you this question, Are you the same person when it's when you're snowed in, or when it's like 90 degrees and you're on the beach, or it's like an array. Like we know, half of the United States right now is snowed in, like, literally, with 15 inches of snow in the last couple hours. They can't go anywhere. They're stuck in their house, and they're literally snowed in. And you end up on a website that they're like, oh, here's a bikini and flip flops, like you should be on the ocean right now. That's great if you're, like, a cruise, if you're selling a destination, but if you're a clothier and you're trying to sell flip flops, like, dude read the room.

Pualena 29:38

Oh my god.

Scott 28:40

So we have weather data that you can add to part of your rules engine, and maybe that's important to you. Maybe it's not. Most of the time, time of day you can get to about every product, but if it's weather based, like, if you have 1000 products in your Shopify store, and you're just trying to send out marketing like part of a newsletter, you can get to unique to the mindset of the user. Clicking that tone. How are you doing on time? You want to go with one more feature, or do you talk about some other stuff?

Pualena 30:05

Let’s roll. Yeah.

Scott 30:06

Good. Okay, this next part gets a little nerdy, but for the part of your audience that understands this, their mind is going to just be like, Oh my gosh. Okay, so everything I've talked to you about, we've talked about in the concept of a URL that you would type in the address bar, or you would click on your phone, you would touch it, you would open a link. You would follow the link. But this rules engine I'm talking about works at the URL level, no matter where the URL is. So let's talk about sending a text message. You send a text message to 10,000 people and it's blasting as a campaign. Maybe you even do a mail merge of like, Hi Scott, and then you have the body of that text message. Could be a receipt, could be a reminder, could be awareness campaign. Who knows, why people you know sending millions and millions of text messages per day? Here's a question for you. I'm gonna put you on the spot. You may or may not know this, because it's pretty nerdy, but when you send me a link and it shows up on my phone and I get a preview, do you know where that preview comes from?

Pualena 31:13

Metadata.

Scott 31:14

You're 100% right. You're so good. So the metadata in the headers of an HTML page has something called Open Graph, OG colon image, or OG colon video. Most people don't use video, but OG colon image, that's what gives you the preview link. Now here's the big aha moment. What if your OG colon image Open Graph is a pro link?

Pualena 31:40

And it can change based on all these variables that. That. That there are so many people that we talk to, and they're like, Well, for one, people just want to change the image, and they don't know how, and they're like, why is this showing up? And it's something's cut off, but that image is so crucial, like that is the first impression that people get from most referrals.

Scott 32:04

So you remember the stock market people I was telling you about earlier. They do custom Open Graph, and they're so good. So if the stock market is open, they do one thing. If it's closed, they do another. If it's open and the stock market is up, then they sell a course on how to make money when the stock market's up. When it's down, they sell another course on how to make money when it's down. And it's all dynamic based on time of day, based on, you know, the exact market conditions right now. And here's the thing about SMS. We call it asynchronous marketing, because if you send out 10,000 messages, people aren't going to open them right now. You might open that when you get home. Maybe you're on an airplane. You might open that in three hours in a whole nother state. But that open graph data is real time. That preview comes at the moment you're looking at the message. So it's real time getting into the mindset of the user, like, like right now. So that's why I call it real time marketing, because we're literally making decisions in milliseconds based on where the user is, what the time of day is, what the weather pattern is. And now we get to the ultimate question of who cares? Like, we built all this fancy stuff, who cares? Some people don't care. Like, let's say you have a lawn mowing business. Maybe you care. You could be like, on the weekends, we're not open, so submit this form. But during the week and during business hours, we're open, so go to our live chat like that's a possibility like this. The Pro Link is not for everyone, is what I'm saying. But like, if you're spending $1000, $3000 $100,000, a million dollars a month on ad spend. You need an advanced link manager, and you've never had levers like this to pull before. So it's, it's really exciting. Like, the thing I'm most proud of is inventing something new for the world. Like, it's generally simple to understand. It's very complex to do. Well, actually, it's not complex to do. If you have an agency or if you're a developer, you can do everything that I just said, and you could probably do it in a week, and you could build it for yourself. But it's very complex to do inexpensively and at scale. So we have 200 milliseconds top to bottom to do everything that we're going to do, with the exception of the interstitial. That takes a little bit longer to load that first party, third party pixel, but to do the location and the time and the weather all in 200 milliseconds. It costs us a lot. That's why the software is not free. So anyway, I mean, I could talk to you for months on all the different things that we have, but that's, uh, I think that’s most of it.

Pualena 34:46

Well, I love that this is your thing. I love that you invented this because you are so passionate about it. And it's…

Scott 34:51

Does it show?

Pualena 34:52

It makes the conversation more fun for one, and it's like, that's why this will continue to get better, because innovating on it.

Scott 35:03

I wonder if I've talked about too many things.

Pualena 35:05

No!

Scott 35:05

I've been giving some advice lately, like, you should only talk about two things, but it feels like you know, it's an evolution. One thing builds on another thing, time, then location, then weather, then like, yeah. There's a lot of good stuff.

Pualena 35:20

I disagree. If there's more, let's, let's do it. And I was thinking about this. Could you, so I'm trying to think of, like, what scenarios might people be interested in, and I also kind of want to, like, break your app and see what happens.

Scott 35:39

Bring it.

Pualena 35:41

In a scheduling capacity. Let's say, like, people utilize schedulers and they have like, these email campaigns or calendars.

Scott 35:48

Calendly or Hubspot.

Pualena 35:48

Yeah, so if I'm let's say it's Friday evening and my next appointment isn’t until next Wednesday. And I love when people can go to my calendar right away and find like they're in the moment they see the ad. They want to book a call in the next four hours, because it's top of mind. But if I'm not available in the next four hours, I don't want them getting to my scheduler quite yet.

Scott 36:16

Right. You could do that with an API. We don't have anything built in out of the box, because the truth is, I don't know what your schedule is, and I could probably push back to say what you just said out loud is probably not what you really want. For example, what if it's 2am like nothing on your calendar for four hours, but you want it to ring your phone? Like there's gonna be a lot more rules you discover to the consequences of what you described. I'll tell you what we do scheduling is for international organizations that have different call centers. So like, if I look at your calendly and it's only you, then you're booking your own calendar, and then that's up to you to make availability. But we have a company in Australia. They're in Sydney. And they have a partner in Europe. So they have this product, but they don't do any of the work in Europe. If you're in Europe, you go to that partner. So I was like, You need continental routing. If somebody is in Europe, don't even make them come to your home page and then say, Go away. Go to Europe. Just send them to Europe. They have a slash meeting short link. And the slash meeting short link says, If I'm in Asia, go here. If I'm in Europe, go here. Actually, they're a little bit even more specific. It's not Europe, it's country based. They're like, if I'm in the United Kingdom, go to this reseller. If I'm in Spain, go to this reseller, and if I'm anywhere else, then go to the generic site. And then Asia, and then if you're in Sydney, you just go to their own meeting scheduler. So it's really helpful when you have a geographic boundary around who you want to make the meeting. And most people don't have that. In fact, before me, they literally had a landing page that's a map, that's like, where are you, and then when you click the country and the zone you're in, then you would go to the meeting in that zone, which, I mean, it makes sense, because that's sort of the old way. That's the only way most people would think to do it. But now they've taken that cognitive load off of the customer, and the customer just says, Yeah, I want to talk to somebody. Oh, I'm in Spain, so I just naturally end up on that calendar. So that's with a country based or Continental router.

Pualena 38:30

Yeah, that's what I meant to ask about. That actually makes a lot of sense, too, from a language perspective. Yeah, you can send them straight to a Spanish landing page versus, yeah.

Scott 38:43

Part of the rules engine is language detection. So we have device detection. If you're on a mobile device, go here. Desktop, go there. Language detection. So if you have part of your website that is in Spanish, you can use our routing engine from the same ad, even though the ad might be in English, maybe I'm bilingual and I read English, but when I click it, my primary language is Spanish, then it will take me to the Spanish page, and we would do that with a path injection. So this is actually something we did at Microsoft, and we had a big problem with this, because me, as one of the employees, I would write something inside the documentation. So if you've ever done anything at Microsoft, you've seen learn.microsoft.com/en.us en, us, or sp, sp, or MX, SP, like whatever the culture code is. The problem is, I would copy that URL with a hard coded en us in it, and then I would put that behind a short link, and then I'm like, Hey everybody, look at this cool thing that I just wrote, because I have a bunch of white papers that I wrote while I worked at Microsoft. And the problem is I hard coded the English in the URL of the destination link. And so now our rules engine is like, Oh, you speak. Just. Japanese, change the culture to JP, dash, JP, and render in Japanese. Again, not that's not applicable to everyone in your audience, because not everybody is doing multicultural content, but for the larger players, it's, it's immensely helpful.

Pualena 40:15

I mean, I can just think of so many examples. And actually, so we, I was in Japan a couple weeks ago. And it was really frustrating.

Scott 40:20

It’s my favorite country on the planet.

Pualena 40:22

Me too.

Scott 40:23

Japan is like the Nordstrom of the world.

Pualena 40:28

I completely love it. Everything is amazing there. The snow. We went snowboarding.

40:33

The food. People. The courtesy.

Pualena 40:36

Oh my gosh. The efficiency of the transportation system. Every Yeah, everything's amazing. And when you visit websites while you're traveling, it defaults to the language of the country that you're in. And so there were all of these Japanese websites where you're, like, trying to find, where does it say English, like…

Scott 40:53

Where's the flag? Where's the flag?

Pualena 40:55

Yes, would using, well, oh no, because it would, it would read what language my device defaults to, right?

Scott 41:05

That's right. So your device, every browser on the Internet, whether it's a device, a phone, a browser, desktop, tablet, it has a user agent, and the user agent sends the language preferences, even if there's more than one. So if I'm bilingual, I can set my language preference to English and Spanish, 50-50, and then I will get 50-50, but I could also do English and Spanish, 90-10, or I could do English Spanish, German, 30-30-30, and the site will then read that and give me the content that most closely matches, if it's available. Like my blog is in English only, then you could do AI to do some translation, or even Google, right click, translate to local language. But I only write in English, so, like, it's not available, I couldn't just magically send you to a Spanish version unless I enhanced it with the Spanish content. But most of the sites in Japan, like you've experienced, they have the English version. They just don't auto detect right. So localization is is hard. One of the things that I worked on most at Microsoft was an international conference. I flew to 26 countries a year to deliver technical content around the world. I worked, literally with over 1000 presenters on this giant project called Ignite Tour, and we did a lot of translation before the AI world that we live in today, and we used a lot of AI, but it's never good. In fact, when we were, this is funny, when we were in Mexico, we had all of our presenters come and laugh at us, because the room that they got booked in to prepare for the conference was the car audio room. And we're like, what? What is car audio? We're like, where did that even come from? But when the AI engine translated the speaker room, oh, it became the car audio room. So anyway, translation is hard.

Pualena 43:07

Yeah, yeah, it is, and it's super contextual. So, yeah, yeah, that's right.

Scott 43:11

So yeah, that's that's real time marketing, hopefully to your audience, there's something else to think about, even if it's as simple as I have a Shopify store and I can advertise the same product that I have morning, afternoon and overnight, or I'm doing a webinar I have before and after. Like, those types of pro links are super easy to do, and our product is $9 a month to have that. So that's just very low end, very small audience, low end price point, and I put a coupon code RBL for 50% off for two months. If somebody wants to try it, it's a couple dollars. It's not free. I'm actually against free. I don't like free things. Free has, like, a whole bunch of negative connotations. So there is a demo when you sign up, but it doesn't, it only lets you create five links, and you can't put a custom domain on a demo. So, like, if you want to do anything for real, you got to pay a couple dollars for it.

Pualena 44:14

Yeah, that's really generous. Thank you so much. I feel like people are going to go nuts over this. Just, it's funny, like, it. It preserves the integrity of what you're creating online. You can all like, if you rebrand, people are always changing their business names, and now you don't have to lose everything. It's just, yeah, thank you for your passion.

Scott 44:34

How much more to think about.

Pualena 44:35

I think tonight I'm gonna, like, think of a million ways to use all of these, and I'm gonna email you, can it do this? And then I'm gonna get a link to whatever that email goes to at 2am when I'm up thinking about this, I see what's gonna happen here.

Scott 44:55

Well you have my email. We have a ton of stuff online. Let me finish with one more funny story, I like to watch users. I call it user auditing. So if I say, like, do this on our website, go here, sign up, create a short link to somebody who's never seen the product before and well, let me pause for a second. How many domains do you own?

Pualena 45:14

Hundreds.

Scott 45:15

Okay, good. So you're gonna love this, yeah, so the very first thing I ask somebody to do is open the website. It's 301.Pro, in fact, I've said it on I've said it here 1000 times, and that failed. Can you guess why this user that I was talking to could not open our website? They had internet everything, technically, was working, but they literally went to the number three, the letter O and the number one, dot Pro, like, it's 301, right? Do you know what a like, a 404 is not found. 500 is server error. 200 is good. 301 is, like, the nerdy code for redirect. That's That's why the name of our company is 301. But I should really say 301 no, then. Luckily, 3-O-1 dot Pro was also available. So now I own yet another domain.

Pualena 46:15

I mean that that was, that's a good, a good call. That's so funny. No, I love the name of your company. I think it's like we have a coffee company here called Nine bar. It's love, I love nerdy, creative names.

Scott 46:29

Okay, hang on. I don't know what that means. Nine bar is that like a coffee thing or an address?

Pualena 46:35

There's nine bars of pressure in an espresso shot.

Scott 46:39

Oh, that’s amazing. Yeah, that you know, you're like, oh, I can remember, remember that forever.

Pualena 46:45

Yesh, our area code here is 808, but nobody says that. Everyone says 8-O-8.

Scott 46:50

Is that, Hawaii? oh yeah. I love Hawaii. It's my favorite place to dive. So I wrote down three quotes from your shows that I was listening to. The first one is from not too long ago. Data tells a story you can't manage what you don't measure. Do you remember saying that?

Pualena 47:13

I do. Very recently.

Scott 47:14

That’s so good, because you should not be embarrassed of the data. The data is the fact. Like, the data tells a story. I love that. The next one is improved failure. Just by itself. Improved failure, like.

Pualena 47:33

That's why we're all still here.

Scott 47:35

Avoid perfectionism. Yeah, improved failure is really good. And then the last one was from your guest, and I'm so sorry I forgot the name, but it was if you put a video on your home page, you have a much higher Google ranking than if you don't have a video on your home page. So…

Pualena 47:51

Bernadette Marciniak.

Scott 47:52

Yeah. Bernadette. Yeah, that's right. So at the time we're recording this right now, I don't have a video on my home page, but by the time you publish this, I'm gonna have a video on our home page that's like real feedback from your show. It's awesome.

Pualena 48:10

Amazing. Well, I'm glad you. You enjoyed the show so much that you listened episodes, and thank you for for sharing those takeaways. That's awesome.

Speaker 2 48:20

Yeah, cool, yeah.

Pualena 48:23

You’re phenomenal. Thank you so much.

Scott 48:27

That's how we started the show. Like you thought I would had good prepared notes.

Pualena 48:31

You did, and I just, I mean humans who are passionate about what they do and want to share it with the world. Like, how can you not love and appreciate that person.

Scott 48:42

Yeah, totally, completely. That's awesome. All right, it's been a great time on the show. Thank you so much for having me. I know there's a ton of work that goes into this. I sort of get to fly in, be the guest, have some fun laugh for an hour. And I know you have like, 20 hours worth of work to do now to get something published. Like there's so much work that people don't see underneath the iceberg, like the tip of the iceberg you see, but then all that work to make it happen. So thank you for that.

Pualena 49:09

Absolutely. That's with anything. And thankfully, I have a phenomenal editor who does an incredible job. Astronomic Audio. Highly recommended. They're amazing. Yeah. Thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing. We will put all of the pro links in the show notes, and if anybody wants to connect with you further. Do you have socials, emails, anything that people can use to connect with you?

Scott 49:32

Yeah, 301.pro everything is on the website. That coupon code RBL, 50% off they can use that. We have live chat for support. That's almost 24/7 not quite 24/7 email support at 301.pro, if you're signed into the app, there's an in app chat widget. There's almost always a real human behind that. So yeah, we're not hard to get to. 301.pro, 3-0-1 dot Pro.

Pualena 49:56

Either one works now.

Scott 48:57

Yeah, yeah, it does. Actually, I would challenge someone in the audience to try it in 301. Works. So good, you don't even notice the difference.

Pualena 50:07

Brilliant. It's your new tagline. Yeah, amazing.

Scott 50:08

Thanks so much.

Pualena 50:09

Awesome. Thank you so much.

View Details

Pua walks business owners through the top five reasons they should be monetizing their knowledge and experience through online courses. She talks about some of the common misconceptions about courses, including how many businesses don’t think they have something to turn into a course. In reality, she shows us how any business—virtual or in-person, service-based or product-based—can build online courses easily and quickly.

When it comes to online course creation, Pua reminds people how simple it is to transfer their knowledge into an online format that makes it easy to learn. More importantly, she reinforces how having courses can help build trust and credibility, leverage knowledge for additional revenue streams, and serve a subset of clients who may not be ready for higher cost traditional services.

If you’ve been considering an online course—or even if you’ve thought “there’s no way for my business to create a course”—this episode will change your mind and get you thinking creatively! Listen in to learn how simple the process can be.

Resources discussed in this episode:

BNI
Atomic Habits - James Clear
Kajabi

Contact Pua Pakele | RBL Media:

Website: RBLMedia.co
Facebook: RBL-Media
Twitter: @RBLMedia_co
Instagram: @RBL.Media
Email: support@rblmedia.co

Transcript: