Was It Something I Read?: Recent Episodes
Ashley, Kate & Alex
Everyday theology about important issues facing the church.Join us as we discuss excellent books that examine the issues and scriptures that make so many of us uncomfortable and leave us with a lot of questions. We want to break down troubling texts and hard concepts and make them useful in our life and faith.
During this between season break, guest Gabe Magnus joins Ashley to discuss a small but profound meditation on war, militarization, and neighbour love found in the story of Aldarion and Erendis, from the the Unfinished Tales of J. R. R. Tolkien, as well as some of the implications that we see as citizens of the peaceable kingdom.
Our thanks and appreciation to our partners:
A production of the Centre for the Study of Bible and Violence.
https://www.csbvbristol.org.uk/
Podcast cover art by Studio of Broken Things
https://www.facebook.com/ISA4048
Intro music "Br1ghter" by Tape Machines (feat. Le June & Nbhd Nick)
During this between season break, guest Gabe Magnus joins Ashley to discuss a small but profound meditation on war, militarization, and neighbour love found in the story of Aldarion and Erendis, from the the Unfinished Tales of J. R. R. Tolkien, as well as some of the implications that we see as citizens of the peaceable kingdom.
SummaryWe were delighted and honoured that Bill Webb and Gord Oeste, the authors of this excellent work, were willing to take a substantial amount of time to sit down and chat with us about many of the questions that have occurred to us in our study.
Time Stamps
00:01:30 Introduction of Bill Webb and Gord Oeste
00:02:55 How do your dual vocations of pastor and scholar connect for you?
00:08:40 If you had the chance to re-write the book, what would you do differently, or do the same?
00:12:35 What do you wish you'd had time to examine? What's the best thing you left on the cutting room floor?
00:15:45 On what issue did you differ the most (if any)?
00:21:10 In Chapter 3, you say most Christians have a deficient concept of God. How did you come to that conclusion? How did your own understanding of God become bigger or deeper in the process of writing the book?
00:37:55 If you could only share one small piece of this book with someone who is struggling with their faith due to the war texts, what would you say?
00:47:20 You demonstrate well that 1 Samuel 15 provides more support for your hyperbole thesis than challenge to it. But one listener asked: if that is true, how would the first audience have understood the command in 1 Samuel 15:3 the command to destroy all children and infants?
00:54:45 When you hear about modern war atrocities, such as Ukraine or Sudan, what connections do you make between your research in the book and what you see happening?
01:05:30 In the book, you suggest that there isn't a focus on literal people-killing genocide, but rather the removal of culture. Has the power of this point been weakened in light of recent understandings of cultural genocide, especially for those of us in Canada who have been confronted with the realities of our residential schools?
01:20:10 In light of the suffering and evil in the world, what part of eschatological hope is most meaningful for you?
Notes
1) Many thanks to Bill and Gord for taking the time to answer so many of our questions!
2) Our thanks and appreciation to our partners:
A production of the Centre for the Study of Bible and Violence.
https://www.csbvbristol.org.uk/
Podcast cover art by Studio of Broken Things
https://www.facebook.com/ISA4048
Intro music "Br1ghter" by Tape Machines (feat. Le June & Nbhd Nick)
Summary
In this final episode, we look at Webb and Oeste’s insightful final chapter. Here, they look at how the death, resurrection, and final victory of Jesus forever changes – and in fact undoes – the place of warfare and violence in God’s kingdom. Jesus’ death undoes ethnic strife and conflict, but rather makes for peace, reconciliation, and forgiveness. We think about the power of having a God who meets us and even suffers with us in our hurt, and in the hurt and torment of the world. We look at the way that war in the New Testament is conceived of as spiritual struggle, and especially at the way that Revelation (though often used wrongly!) provides the ultimate subversive war text as Jesus himself on the last day speaks defeat of the enemies of God, and speaks peace into existence.
Notes
1) Exodus 26:31-37 gives instruction for the creation of the veil that separated the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies. The Holy Place was where the priests performed their regular duties, and contained the altar of incense, the table for the bread, the lampstand. The Holy of Holies held only the Ark of the Covenant, and only the High Priest could go there, and only once a year, on the Day of Atonement. The Ark of the Covenant represented God's presence. He was envisioned as enthroned upon it, "between the cherubim" (Isa 37:16). The direct, unmediated presence of God was dangerous to sinful humans. The instructions in Leviticus 16 that detail how the high priest is to enter the holy place is closer to hazmat protocols than what we perceive of as worship. Thus when the curtain tears at Jesus' death, access to the divine is suddenly, vividly, and even (one might say) violently restored.
2) Webb and Oeste scooped up much that they had to leave on the cutting room floor and included it in a fabulous set of appendices, which are available for free (link below). They are well worth the read to investigate many of these issues further.
https://www.ivpress.com/Media/Default/Downloads/Excerpts-and-Samples/5249-Appendixes.pdf
3) Our thanks and appreciation to our partners:
A production of the Centre for the Study of Bible and Violence.
https://www.csbvbristol.org.uk/
Podcast cover art by Studio of Broken Things
https://www.facebook.com/ISA4048
Intro music "Br1ghter" by Tape Machines (feat. Le June & Nbhd Nick)
Summary
In this episode, we look at a number of the texts that describe God in the Old Testament as a warrior, and then at many of the texts that suggest that God is uncomfortable being associated with physical violence. We also delve deeply into a few particular texts. We look at the unique quality of the biblical creation story, and what it says about Israel’s God. We examine the gut punch that is the violence and suffering in the book of Lamentations. And we consider what the book of Jonah has to say about the universality of God’s love.
Notes
1) Other nations whose destruction God grieves include Tyre (Ezek 27-28), Egypt (Ezek 32:1-16), and Moab (Isa 15:5-6; 16:7-9; Jer 48:30-36).
2) Our thanks and appreciation to our partners:
A production of the Centre for the Study of Bible and Violence.
https://www.csbvbristol.org.uk/
Podcast cover art by Studio of Broken Things
https://www.facebook.com/ISA4048
Intro music "Br1ghter" by Tape Machines (feat. Le June & Nbhd Nick)
Summary
In this difficult and sobering episode, we look at a range of ancient – and not-so-ancient – war practices that were common in the Ancient Near East. But though we talk about what these horrific practices entailed (we hope, in ways that are not unnecessarily gruesome), what’s most interesting is in their connection with scripture. While scripture is aware of all these practices, biblical law disallowed virtually all of them. We begin to talk about the ultimate justice of God, which is a subject we will take up more in future episodes. And we start to ask uncomfortable questions about whether war practices have actually changed that much.
Notes
1) Further on the subject of forced stripping, Dr David Tombs has done extensive work on sexual violence in the context of torture and terror, focusing recently on Jesus as a victim of sexual humiliation/violence:
Reaves, J. R., Tombs, D., & Figueroa, R. (Eds.). When did we see you naked? Jesus as a victim of sexual abuse. London: SCM Press, 2021.
Tombs, D. The crucifixion of Jesus: Torture, sexual abuse, and the scandal of the cross. Abingdon: Routledge, 2023. doi: 10.4324/9780429289750 (available free online from publisher)
He also presented many of these thoughts as part of this recent CSBV webinar: Unspeakable: Preaching and Trauma-Informed Theology. Lent Book Club
2) Webb and Oeste refer in Chapter 13, footnote 34, to a Babylonian lament that recoils from the ripping of pregnant women, English text of which may be found in Shalom M. Paul, Amos, Hermeneia. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1991, p. 68.
3) Imprecatory (cursing) psalms are a cry of the powerless for justice, and for God to act in ways that those who have been abused cannot. A recent CSBV webinar may be of interest: Cursing with God: The Imprecatory Psalms and the Ethics of Christian Prayer. Lent Book Club
4) The Toronto Star article on war rape in Ukraine that Kate referenced: https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2023/01/25/it-is-clearly-a-strategy-the-truth-is-emerging-about-russias-use-of-rape-in-the-war-on-ukraine.html
5) On issues of trauma carried in the body, see van der Kolk, B. The Body Keeps the Score. New York: Penguin Books, 2014.
6) If you are interested in issues of Palestinian oppression and the misuse of scripture to provide the theological underpinnings for that oppression, check out this webinar with CSBV, and also our upcoming conference:
The Other Side of the Wall: A Palestinian Christian Narrative of Lament and Hope. Lent Book Club.
https://www.csbvbristol.org.uk/annual-conference-2023/
7) Our thanks and appreciation to our partners:
A production of the Centre for the Study of Bible and Violence.
https://www.csbvbristol.org.uk/
Podcast cover art by Studio of Broken Things
https://www.facebook.com/ISA4048
Intro music "Br1ghter" by Tape Machines (feat. Le June & Nbhd Nick)
Summary
In this episode, we dive into how Webb and Oeste explain the relationship between the "drive out" and "total kill" instructions in Scripture. We see that it doesn’t make sense for them to be two words for the same thing, but they are related. They actually function as two means to the same end, and we'll discuss how the authors develop this idea of "shared-goal equivalency."
This conversation led us to talk about God's mercy and patience, and to re-evaluate whether we tell and apply these stories in a way that truly reflects God's tone.
Notes
Our thanks and appreciation to our partners:
A production of the Centre for the Study of Bible and Violence.
https://www.csbvbristol.org.uk/
Podcast cover art by Studio of Broken Things
https://www.facebook.com/ISA4048
Intro music "Br1ghter" by Tape Machines (feat. Le June & Nbhd Nick)
Summary
While Bloody, Brutal, and Barbaric? is about the Canaanite conquest, as we read the chapter on Saul and the Amalekites, we couldn’t help but notice how strongly it is highlighted that Saul is an unfit leader, who cares about his own glory and position, far more than he cares about obedience to God. Perhaps it is the current reckoning in which much of the evangelical church finds itself, but we felt we’d be remiss if we didn’t stop and consider how this Old Testament text so encourages us to think through this relevant issue.
Notes
1) Listeners who want to look further into issues of power abuse in the church may be interested in some of the following resources:
Glen Scrivener’s material on abuse in the church following the Ravi Zacharias scandal: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4zD5797LHdeSKbVtM7_AzOO-4miUyRQo
Roys Report https://julieroys.com/podcast/
CT on John MacArthur https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2023/february/grace-community-church-elder-biblical-counseling-abuse.html
Rise and Fall of Mars Hill https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/podcasts/rise-and-fall-of-mars-hill/
Bodies Behind the Bus https://open.spotify.com/show/10b0rbS8MNB7UjNIlWUAmf
Dangerous Calling by Paul David Tripp https://www.amazon.ca/Dangerous-Calling-Confronting-Challenges-Pastoral/dp/1433541378/
2) We can be contacted on social media
Twitter: @wisirpod
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100089794804928
Instagram: @was.it.something.i.read
3) Our thanks and appreciation to our partners:
A production of the Centre for the Study of Bible and Violence.
https://www.csbvbristol.org.uk/
Podcast cover art by Studio of Broken Things
https://www.facebook.com/ISA4048
Intro music "Br1ghter" by Tape Machines (feat. Le June & Nbhd Nick)
Summary
In a slightly short episode, we talk about 1 Samuel 15, and some of the ways in which it seems, at first glance, to be a challenge to Webb and Oeste’s suggestion that hyperbole is an extensive part of how war instructions are given and carried out in Israel. What becomes apparent is that hyperbole is most definitely in use in that text, also, and we consider what that means, and what the author of Samuel intends for the readers to hear.
And since the subject and tone of this episode was less intense, we left in a few of our funnier flubs. This might be an intense and weighty book, but we have a great time together.
Notes
1) We briefly mention the Battle of Qarqar in this episode, the largest battle to that point in the ancient world, which happened during the reign of (and was participated in by) the Israelite King Ahab. Interestingly, this massive battle is not mentioned in the Bible. Listeners who would like to go further down the rabbit hole on this battle’s conspicuous absence from scripture may be interested in this blogpost from the Centre for the Study of Bible and Violence:
https://www.csbvbristol.org.uk/2020/11/23/what-the-biblical-authors-skipped/
2) Our thanks and appreciation to our partners:
A production of the Centre for the Study of Bible and Violence.
https://www.csbvbristol.org.uk/
Podcast cover art by Studio of Broken Things
https://www.facebook.com/ISA4048
Intro music "Br1ghter" by Tape Machines (feat. Le June & Nbhd Nick)
Summary
In this episode, we talk through chapters 8-10 of Bloody, Brutal, and Barbaric?, which address the use of hyperbole in the conquest narratives, and addresses some of the arguments against hyperbole. We talk about reading the bible seriously, the appeal of “literal,” and how literalism creates more problems than it solves. We also discuss different sorts of hyperbole that were frequently employed in the Ancient Near East, most of which also occur in scripture, and where scripture is similar to and different from the accounts of the surrounding nations.
With less awkwardness and a little more laughter, we talk about chapters 2-4 of Bloody, Brutal, and Barbaric. We think about the trouble with traditional answers to the Canaanite conquest and the importance of perspective. Patterns in scripture, such as the concern for sacred space and literal and figurative Canaanites, help to provide a framework for a redemptive reading of scripture. We also have good conversations about our perspectives of God, and where they might be insufficient.
Notes
Our thanks and appreciation to our partners:
This podcast is a production of the Centre for the Study of Bible and Violence.
https://www.csbvbristol.org.uk/
Podcast cover art by Studio of Broken Things
https://www.facebook.com/ISA4048
Intro music "Br1ghter" by Tape Machines, Le June, Nbhd Nick
Summary
In an equally difficult second part to our conversation on war rape, we begin to unpack what Ancient Near Eastern war practices looked like with regards to enemy women, in order to understand how the law in Deuteronomy 21:10-14 makes improvements. Though the specifics of the law remain reprehensible to our current values, it does become evident that in ancient Israel, even captive brides are given a level of status and consideration that is completely unprecedented in the ancient world.
Notes
1) Helen Paynter’s book The Bible Doesn’t Tell Me So https://www.amazon.ca/Bible-Doesnt-Tell-Me-So/dp/0857469894/
2) Helen Paynter’s 2018 Whitley Lecture Dead and Buried?: attending to the voices of the victim in the Old Testament and today available:
Whitley Lecture
3) Ashley Hibbard’s seminar “By Faith, They Still Speak” at the Stoney Creek Church of Christ weekend “Keep Listening: Hearing Victims’ Voices” (audio improves dramatically about two minutes in!)
"By Faith They Still Speak" -- Keep Listening Seminar, October, 2021
4) Our thanks and appreciation to our partners:
This podcast is a production of the Centre for the Study of Bible and Violence.
https://www.csbvbristol.org.uk/
Podcast cover art by Studio of Broken Things
https://www.facebook.com/ISA4048
Intro music "Br1ghter" by Tape Machines, Le June, Nbhd Nick
Summary
In part one of this very uncomfortable episode, we try to think through the issue of forced marriage and war rape as addressed in Deuteronomy 21:10-14. We wrestle with our disgust for the practice, trying to see it through both our modern understanding of issues of power imbalance and consent. We also try to see how it might have been understood by the first readers as an improvement on standard ancient war practice, and how that might inform our ethical positions.
Notes
1) Story as Torah by Gordon Wenham:
https://www.amazon.ca/Story-Torah-Testament-Narrative-Ethically/dp/0801027837
2) Our thanks and appreciation to our partners:
This podcast is a production of the Centre for the Study of Bible and Violence.
https://www.csbvbristol.org.uk/
Podcast cover art by Studio of Broken Things
https://www.facebook.com/ISA4048
Intro music "Br1ghter" by Tape Machines, Le June, Nbhd Nick
Summary
Carrying on from the prior episode, we continue to talk about divine purpose and human failings, messy toddlers, and the sometimes painful results and moral grey areas wrought by the actions of humans who are in process. An interesting conversation about non-combatant innocents and theological innocence leads to questions about unintentional category shifts in scholarship, and raises (though doesn’t explore!) questions about the differing Calvinist/Arminian perspectives on guilt and innocence. We conclude with a reflection on evil and suffering, and Kate reminds us that the scales of goodness and justice will yet be balanced by the God who is making all things new.
Credits
Our thanks and appreciation to our partners:
This podcast is a production of the Centre for the Study of Bible and Violence.
https://www.csbvbristol.org.uk/
Podcast cover art by Studio of Broken Things
https://www.facebook.com/ISA4048
Intro music "Br1ghter" by Tape Machines, Le June, Nbhd Nick
Summary
With less awkwardness and a little more laughter, we talk about chapters 2-4 of Bloody, Brutal, and Barbaric. We think about the trouble with traditional answers to the Canaanite conquest and the importance of perspective. Patterns in scripture, such as the concern for sacred space and literal and figurative Canaanites, help to provide a framework for a redemptive reading of scripture. We also have good conversations about our perspectives of God, and where they might be insufficient.
Notes
1) This is a condensed version of Louie Giglio’s “all creation worships” sermon that Kate mentioned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=helxFeG-0n0
2) CSBV director Dr Helen Paynter’s article on Jesus’ victory over evil paralleling Israel’s victory over the Canaanites:
Paynter, Helen. “Matthew’s Gadarene Swine and the Conquest of Jericho: An Intertextual Reading.” Pacific Journal of Theological Research 14, no. 2 (2019): 13-24.
3) Our thanks and appreciation to our partners:
This podcast is a production of the Centre for the Study of Bible and Violence.
https://www.csbvbristol.org.uk/
Podcast cover art by Studio of Broken Things
https://www.facebook.com/ISA4048
Intro music "Br1ghter" by Tape Machines, Le June, Nbhd Nick
SummaryIn our inaugural episode, we give an overview of some of the biblical texts that talk about the slaughter of innocents and war rape that rightly cause us such ethical discomfort. Pushing through the awkwardness of never having done this before, we talk about what we hope to gain from reading this book and give an overview of the authors’ arguments, and talk about how hard questions sometimes emerge from deeper faith, and not skepticism. We also consider how we picture war, both ancient and modern, and consider to what degree Hollywood has affected our perceptions.
Show Notes
1) Our thanks and appreciation to our partners:
This podcast is a production of the Centre for the Study of Bible and Violence.
https://www.csbvbristol.org.uk/
Podcast cover art by Studio of Broken Things
https://www.facebook.com/ISA4048
Intro music "Br1ghter" by Tape Machines, Le June, Nbhd Nick
2) Webb and Oeste’s list of troubling texts (p. 25 n. 1):
Genocide:
Num 21:2-3
Deut 2:34; 3:6; 7:2; 13:15; 20:16-17
Josh 6:21
1 Sam 15:3
War rape:
Num 31:17-18, 25
Deut 21:10-14
3) Also referenced in this episode were the stories in Joshua of Rahab (Josh. 2) and the Gibeonites (Josh. 9-10).
4) On the issue of whether there’s an angry God of the Old Testament, and a reformed, loving God in the New Testament, there are a number of good resources, such as the book by CSBV’s director Dr Helen Paynter, God of Violence Yesterday, God of Love Today?
https://www.amazon.ca/God-Violence-Yesterday-Love-Today/dp/1532691033